From: Pup7777@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Selling Your Writing Date: 30 Jun 2000 19:51:16 EDT In a message dated 00-06-30 18:55:47 EDT, you write: << So my answer to the question: yes "quality of writing" has a definite relationship to getting published, and getting published has a definite relationship with sales. You must write with some quality to get published. >> Last weekend my husband and I for date night talked about "desire to go national" we see in artist around us and in ourselves. We came up with a working theory that many of you might shoot tons of holes in, but I'm going to spit it any ways. We see several types of artists. The ones who are so focused on "going national" that's all they think about and talk about. They are the ones that are so focused on making it into the big times they forget about improving their art. Then there are others who spend all their time on improving their craft, and are quite gifted, but they never spend time on submitting or researching if the subject they have chosen or the type of writing they are doing will appeal to a publisher or ultimately to the buying public. (Of course you have to balance this with writing things you want to write and not writing just for the mighty dollar or publication, which will kill the heart out of your craft.) My husband suggested the an artist should work and struggle to improve his or her craft so the national market will be going after the artist instead of the artist pleading the publishers and buyers. Now I rarely see any publisher going after a "no name," but I kind of liked the concept. I see J.K. Rowlings as an author who proved this theory. The publisher ate her right up after they FINALLY read her manuscript. And 40 million dollars later, she's sitting pretty and with as much job security as a writer could hope for. Personally I feel an artist must both work dang hard continually to improve and be market smarts so they will know and understand what the reader and the publisher wants. Of course, I am not a national artist yet so this might be completely off. Lisa Peck - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] re: Community Theater Date: 30 Jun 2000 21:13:10 EDT Thom Duncan: In reality, the only thing that matters, regardless of the sincerity of the creators of a work of art, is the final product. Is it worth the money one pays to see it? ... were I still a reviewer, I would never completely pan any play produced by a community theatre. Having been there, done that, I realize how difficult it can be to get the best talent when you're not paying anyone. _______________ Our paper's entertainment editor, a friend, has confessed that it is often difficult to find good things to say about some performances. To his credit, he has always found a way to point out any (and often all) of the finer points of a production by our community theatre. Several years ago, he showed me a quick draft of a difficult review, written as an outlet for his frustration, and insisting that it will always remain unpublished. >From his unpublished notes: After last evening's performance, it is evident that our community theatre would greatly benefit from an influx of talent and support. The number to volunteer is 555-1212. Please call as soon as possible. Larry Jackson ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: [AML] CARD, _Enchantment_ (Review) Date: 30 Jun 2000 03:37:00 -0600 ENCHANTMENT by Orson Scott Card 1999, Del Rey (Ballantine Publishing Group) Mass market paperback, 415 pages $6.99 The Shocking Truth Behind Happily Ever After "And they lived happily ever after." Isn't that how _Sleeping Beauty_ ends, after the Handsome Prince kisses her out of a magical slumber? In the twisted caverns of Orson Scott Card's mind, of course not. The boy Ivan Petrovich Smetski, nicknamed Vanya, suddenly, when the Soviet Union begins allowing Jews to emigrate to Israel and his family owns up to their Jewish heritage, is supposed to call himself Itzak Shlomo. After the usual interminable delay, the family finally gets their exit visa, and Ivan's father promptly takes them to America. But on the way, they make a stopover at Cousin Marek's farm in Poland. Ivan, who has always loved to run, runs through the near-primeval forest surrounding the farm, and stumbles into a clearing full of leaves. Magically, the leaves part for him as he enters, and only because they do so, he narrowly avoids stepping into a chasm that was completely camouflaged. In the center of the clearing, the unbroken carpet of leaves rise in a mound that is shaped curiously like a reclining woman. On the far end of the clearing, the leaves churn as something underneath moves toward Ivan. Being a young boy alone in a strange location, he imagines a horrible monster and flees. In America, after growing up and becoming a track star and a scholar of ancient Russian legends and Slavic languages, Ivan has the opportunity to return to the former Soviet Union for research. Near the end of his academic pilgrimage, he visits Cousin Marek again, and remembers the haunting experience he had in the forest as a boy. He can hardly believe it ever happened--just the wild imaginings of a frightened boy. But his curiosity gets the better of him, and he seeks out the clearing. To his distress, he finds it was all true: the leaves that magically part, the chasm with the woman's shape, and the churning leaves that move toward him. This time he stays, and ends up in a deadly confrontation with a giant bear, which he realizes he cannot win. So he draws on information every child know from the fairy tales: As the bear heaved its chest up onto the pedestal, Ivan knelt beside the bed, leaned down, and kissed the woman's lips. They were soft and alive. She kissed him back. Her eyes opened. Her lips parted. She gave a soft cry, drew her head away from him. He knelt up to look at the bear. Its hind legs were now scrabbling for purchase on the pedestal. She stammered something in some language. A Slavic language, but very oddly pronounced. He knew he should understand it. After a moment, it registered on his brain. Though the accent was unfamiliar, she had to be speaking a dialect of proto-Slavonic, closely related to the Old Church Slavonic that he and his father had spoken together so often.... He understood now--easily, in fact: Ask me to marry you. This was hardly the time for romance, he thought. But her gaze was fixed on the bear. It towered over them, its arms spread wide, its mouth open as it brayed out its triumphal cry. Ivan realized that she wasn't proposing a romantic relationship, she was telling him how to vanquish the bear. Of course, they end up marrying. They live happily ever after. Except that Ivan learns the Shocking Truth behind Happily Ever After. Kissing Sleeping Beauty is only the beginning of his troubles. _Enchantment_ is an absolute delight to read. Card makes the old fairy tale come to gritty life, starting with the darker and more violent Russian version of Sleeping Beauty. The leaf-covered clearing is an isolated patch of land suspended in time, with magical bridges that reach to Ivan's modern century and the early days of European Christianity that is the home of Katerina (the princess). The two spend time in both centuries, and the way Card contrasts the two is where this novel gets much of its enchantment (pun intended). Throw in the sociopathic witch Baba Yaga as the ruthless villain, who makes Hannibal Lecter look like a choir boy, and you have vintage Card storytelling at work. Card doesn't sugar coat anything in this fairy tale of magical realism. The world of Katerina has none of the Disney romance that Western culture imagines for such settings. The clash between ancient and modern culture never lets up: the presuppositions inherent in the two are irreconcilable, and Card avoids the chauvenistic temptation to have his modern protagonist "enlighten" the ancients. Indeed, it's the modern protagonist who must become enlightened as he learns how the mindset of this early tribe of Slavs is necessary for survival in their harsh times. The way Card handles magic in his otherwise realistic novel must be comparable to the way mystical Christians see Mormon theology: gritty with literalism. Magic-users seem to be everywhere in Card's book, even in modern times, but they also farm and bake cookies and their husbands become college professors. Witch Baba Yaga must hijack a modern airline jet to magically return to her own time. One gets the impression that, if magic really did work in our world, _this_ is how it would have to work. And do the Handsome Prince and Sleeping Beauty finally get to live happily ever after? You'll have to read _Enchantment_ to find that out. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] LDS Church Magazines Are Going Online Date: 30 Jun 2000 22:08:59 EDT [MOD: I tried this out. http://library.lds.org works fine. It is searchable, and the search worked very quickly. "The Trouble with Maria," by the way, is listed as being from the August 1982 _Ensign_, p. 47. The text of the article is also on the Web site.] Mary Ann Bills has reported on another list that Church magazines from January 1971 through April 2000 in English are online and included the following quote from http://library.lds.org/library/lpext.dll?f=templates&fn=main-h.htm The archive currently contains the Curriculum materials for use in the year 2000 and the Church magazines in English from January 1971 through April 2000. I have not tried the URL. I suspect that the first part of it, http://library.lds.org, would be sufficient. It is also possible that she was redirected from http://www.lds.org. Since I don't have direct wwweb access, sigh ... Happy hunting. I heard the site is searchable. Wow! (Now I can find "The Trouble With Maria" for my talk on missionary work next Sunday. It really takes a long time to go through all the paper magazines on my shelf to find things, and I never got up the courage to steal the index books from the ward library.) Larry Jackson ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: RE: [AML] AML-List Lunch Date: 30 Jun 2000 16:13:53 -0400 Benson, The conference is Monday 17 -Thurs. 21 July. It looks like from 4-7 pm is open for dinner or computer lab time each evening. The conference ends at 4:15 on Thurs so that may be the best night. I'm not flying out til Friday. Anyone else on the list planning on being there? Are we going to do a dinner during the CES conference like we did last year? And Chris, it's been a long time since I was at BYU so I have no idea of where a good place would be or anything. I also won't be on my e-mail for about a week prior to the probable dinner. It would probably be better to have someone in the vicinity set it up. Tracie - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jason Steed" Subject: Re: [AML] Re: Writing About Religion Date: 30 Jun 2000 19:24:24 PDT Barbara Hume wrote: >This business of the jargon in religious fiction is interesting. I'm >currently reading the Jan Karon books about an Episcopelian priest, and I >find them quite enjoyable. But the jargon sometimes brings me out of the >story. Just what is a rector? a vicar? a warden? a curate? a vestry? What >does it mean to "sit on the gospel side" during a service, or to "sit on >the >epistle side"? The character, of course, would have no need to explain >them--it would be like defining car or bread or sofa. It's part of his >everyday environment. > >Mormon jargon would have the same effect, I should think. Those of us who >are converts all have our stories about expecting to be fed when we went to >the stake center, or wondering why teenage boys would be called elders. It >can be a strong distraction. One must also consider the natural prejudice >people feel when you use the "wrong" terminology, meaning terminology that >differs from what they're accustomed to. If you're used to thinking of a >bishop as some grand poo-bah in fancy robes, then the term seems strange >when applied to an ordinary man in a business suit. I actually disagree with this, and most of my workshop compadres (back in the days when I had some) felt likewise. The 'jargon', they felt, added to the authenticity of the stories. It was any attempt to explain or define a term that broke the spell of the narrative, not the terms themselves. This has been my experience also. When I read Malamud or Singer or Roth, I enjoy the uses of "rabbi" or "kaddish" or "seder", because it lends to the "Jewishness" of the story--makes it seem true and real, rounds out characters, atmospherizes things (a new verb, I think). I think (and my 'outsider' readers agreed) that to use "ward" or "sacrament" or "active" or "bishop" or "Relief Society" is valid, and validates (I'm on a new verb kick: I want to say 'validifies') the story. As a reader, not knowing a term doesn't distract me, it intrigues me--especially if it's pertaining to a culture I'm less familiar with. As writers, I think we should 'put the culture out there,' so to speak. Don't be afraid that it will seem weird to people; count on it. Literary mags get heaps of submissions, and it's the ones that stand out that have the best shot at getting past that first, grad student/intern reader. Of course, I don't think we should flaunt jargon...just don't be afraid to use it when it's germane to the story...it's a legitimate, even essential part of our world. No? Jason ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Johnson Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About Religion Date: 30 Jun 2000 22:52:23 -0400 >To the world, we appear as a fairly right-wing conservative Christian >church and, I believe, unwittingly carry the current contempt that group >carries in the larger society. When you've got Jerry Falwell making >news because he says the purple Telletubby is gay, we get some of the >fall out by assocation. This very comment is an illustration of the potential truth of what you say. In fact, of course, Jerry Falwell never said that the purple teletubby is gay. If you have gay friends, and I have, it was a fairly common conclusion around the gay world that tinkywinky(I think that was the name) had been given gay characteristics by one of the writers as sort of an inside joke. This information (rumor) was picked up by a reporter who was writing for a Falwell journal, and reported (as a rumor among gays). Within moments of his report reaching the street, the word was out that Jerry Falwell had reported that ?tinkywinkie? was gay. I watched Falwell, on one of the morning shows, explain what the actual article said, quoted the original source (a gay magazine, I believe), and explained that he never called the character gay, his reported simply posed the question that -if the gay community considered the character gay, does that consideration affect the way children may perceive it. The very next morning I heard the host of that morning program note that Jerry Falwell was a ****** (I can't remember the epithet) for calling ?Tinkywinkie? gay. In other words, we are perceived as the world perceives us, and everything we write is going to be filtered through that perception >I think we are too young as a church to tet be taken seriously by the >rest of the world. This perception may change over the next decade or >so. I hope so. I am not sure it is youth. Many things about the church are taken very seriously, it is more the perception of a hidebound morality and conservative political view that has to change. It may take a decade, or many decades. > Richard B. Johnson Husband, Father, Grandfather, Puppeteer, Playwright, Writer, Director, Actor, Thingmaker, Mormon, Person, Fool I sometimes think that the last persona is the most important http://www2.gasou.edu/commarts/puppet/ Georgia Southern University Puppet Theatre - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pup7777@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] New Mormon Fiction Date: 30 Jun 2000 23:13:22 EDT In a message dated 00-06-29 16:40:40 EDT, you write: << On Thu, 29 Jun 2000 12:36:57 JST, Andrew Hall wrote: >1. Louise Plummer, A Dance for Three. Doubleday, 2000. I get Amazon.com's YA newsletter and this book was one of their recommended picks for new teen fiction. I was impressed because so far all the books I've read on their say-so have been very high-quality. Melissa Proffitt >> I'd like to know how I can sign up for the Amazon.com.'s YA newsletter. If you could let me know I'd appreciate it. Thanks! Lisa Peck - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Re: Writing About Religion Date: 01 Jul 2000 01:04:16 -0600 "Barbara R. Hume" wrote: > I'm currently reading the Jan Karon books about an Episcopelian priest, and I > find them quite enjoyable. But the jargon sometimes brings me out of the > story. Just what is a rector? a vicar? a warden? a curate? a vestry? What > does it mean to "sit on the gospel side" during a service, or to "sit on the > epistle side"? The character, of course, would have no need to explain > them--it would be like defining car or bread or sofa. It's part of his > everyday environment. > > Mormon jargon would have the same effect, I should think. Have I mentioned that I'm writing a novel? It has the exact problem you're talking about: lots of LDS jargon, even Utah LDS jargon that members outside of Utah might not get. I originally planned for an LDS audience when I started writing it, then a member of my writers group who is not LDS and doesn't know a heck of a lot about the religion said he actually enjoyed the book (what he's read of it so far). He said it was like reading science fiction where you are immersed in an alien culture and have to figure it out gradually. It didn't bother him that he didn't understand each term well, because he could get a vague idea from the context. He was fascinated by the insider's look at a culture that had surrounded him for years, but he didn't understand well. That got me thinking. Perhaps I could handle this problem like other science fiction novels have handled it. _Dune_ comes to mind. Within that book is a rich galactic society with lots of strange jargon, and it isn't explained methodically to simplify things for the reader. But what _is_ available to the reader is a glossary at the end of the book, so you can look up a term anytime you want to. It made me wonder about using that approach to make my book more accessible to non-Mormons. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About Religion Date: 01 Jul 2000 01:11:29 -0700 On Thu, 29 Jun 2000 20:29:21 Todd Robert Petersen writes: > To Chris [Bigelow] and everyone. Sit down, this is a whopper > > > I wonder how many mainstream readers out there would say, "No > > Mormon stories for me" > > I daresay nearly all of them. When I was taking workshop classes, the > students continually commented that they couldn't comment because of > the Mormon content, which in my most LDS stories, is minimal (i.e. I > use minimal jargon and rely on nearly no assumptions of my audience). > > But the word Mormon gets in there and, pow! Here come the knock-out > drops. I've heard things like this before, but it hasn't been my experience. Non-LDS have consistently shown interest in my stories. I published a short novel in Dialogue about 10 years ago, about a philosophy student at BYU, and when I was workshopping it at the UW, one of the other class members said, "Harlow, are you Mormon?" "Yes." "Are you active?" "Yes." "Well, then disregard what I said on your manuscript. You obviously know better than I do." She told me her father had grown up in the church, and her Idaho Mormon relatives were about the most ignorant people she knew. (In the traditional sense of ignorant, not the Mormon sense.) Of course I ended up marrying a deep-rural Idaho Mormon, and when we were in Challis (where Judith Freeman lived for a time) on July 4th a few years back I bought some heavyweight philosophy and literary theory books at the Friends of the Library sale--the kind you might find kicking around any decent college town, which Challis is not, but they send their kids off to decent college towns. What she had written on her copy was that BYU surely didn't even have a philosophy department. But she didn't write that she couldn't see why anyone would want to read about Mormons, and indeed, even though Seattle is the least-churched-per-capita city in the country, no one treated my choice to write about my culture with hostility. To Chris's question > > It it possible for a writer to be so charming or compelling that > > people will overcome their topic aversion? Todd answers > Yes, but it will take a concerted effort, I think, among our best > and brightest to do a kind of literary "missionary" work. Might I suggest a kind of literary missionary work most of us don't think about, a kind Donald Hall discusses in his essay "Poetry and Ambition." One of the things I noticed in grad school is that university English departments don't particularly like writers. Writers and critics tend to be at war. Hall illustrates this by an anecdote. Someone once asked Roman Jakobson, English chair at Harvard, why he didn't hire Vladimir Nabokov. He replied that although he liked elephants he wouldn't hire one to teach zoology. Hall said that writers are the zoo animals of English departments, and that the outstanding critics of the mid-20th century, the people who established and shaped AmLit as a discipline, like Robert Penn Warren, John Crowe Ransom and Lionel Trilling, became superb critics so that their colleagues would not be able to ignore or shrug off their poetry and fiction. We need superb Mormon critics writing superbly about Mormon literature in critical journals, and in magazines. Someone could examine several months of AML-List and open an interesting window on Mormon culture in Time, Newsweek, Harpers, The Atlantic or any number of magazines, if done with the right touch. Consider John Needham's June 29th reply to Andrew's Poll, in which he argues for Mormon short fiction as "the true breakthrough of the decade." > Levi Peterson's _Night Soil_ (1990) far outstrips _Aspen Marooney_ > (1995) in quirky, lovable characters--the odd-ball Mormon types > whom, whatever his attempts to write "serious," non-farcical > fiction, readers will always seek in his work. > > I cannot think of the debut of any 90s Mormon novel that holds a > candle to Brian Evenson's _Altmann's Tongue_ (1994) for > innovation and gripping narrative voice(s), certainly not his > own _Father of Lies_ (1998). > > Phyllis Barber has been appropriately praised for her heavily > remaindered _And the Deseret Shall Blossom_ (1991), but > her true accomplishment is the stories of _Parting the Veil_ > (1999), the result of a twenty years' imaginative reworkings > of Mormon folk motifs that crackle with Mormon idioms and folk > images. And so on. This is the outline and structure for a good survey of Mormon short fiction, John. Flesh it out and get it published. Being both a critic and a literary writer I have found the split between writers and critics annoying and distressing. I've heard each group discuss the other as parasites (not Left Bank parisites). But if we are parasites we're symbiotic. Surely there is audience and journal space for a body of witty, engaging, passionate, intelligent criticism, and surely such a body can help grow the body of our literature, and the body of our readership. Harlow S. Clark ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "lynn gardner" Subject: RE: [AML] GARDNER, _Gem_ Books (was: New Mormon Fiction) Date: 01 Jul 2000 08:34:23 -0700 Is some UVSC professor using your books in class, or is it just coincidence that I've seen your books being read there so often lately? Ardis Parshall Don't I wish!! No, I'm sure no professor would use my books in class unless it was in the negative - don't do it this way. I'm not that good - yet. I'm working to be. But thank you, thank you for that boost to my day. My only explanation is that someone read one and liked it and passed the word along. I do tell a darned good story, even if my writing prowess may leave something to be desired - but I will get there! Someone from Virginia e-mailed my daughter in Texas the other day asking "what did your mother do to improve her writing from book one to book six. It's like a different author." So that gives me hope that someday I may be able to write the "great Mormon novel" and do some of the things that have been active threads on this list the last day or two. (I'm finally swimming through the 415 AML messages that I can't bear to delete without reading them!) The answer to what I have done (if anyone is actually interested!) is attend conferences and pick the brains of successful writers, read as much as my schedule will allow, read how-to books (Dwight Swain, Chris Vogler, Scott Card, etc.) and just keep writing and re-writing with a marvelous, lovingly tough critique group catching my problem areas. My aim in writing is to entertain, educate and edify, providing in-depth research to educate, enough storytelling fun to entertain, and enough good example of my hero and heroine's inner strength and testimony to edify. And that's more than you ever wanted to know!! Thanks, Ardis. Lynn Gardner - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN God's Army Opens on the East Coast: Excel Entertainment Date: 30 Jun 2000 21:13:10 EDT Release 29Jun00 A4 [From Mormon-News] God's Army Opens on the East Coast Excel Entertainment Press Release 29Jun00 A4 Joins List of LDS Attractions in Upstate New York ROCHESTER, NEW YORK -- God's Army, the breakthrough film about Mormon missionaries, will play for a limited run in Rochester, New York. The movie will open on Friday, July 7 at the Henrietta Cinema 18 on 525 Marketplace Drive in Rochester. It is fitting that the first ever major motion picture to provide an insider's look at the life and challenges of a Mormon missionary should make it's East Coast debut in this quiet yet notable corner of America. Steeped in Mormon history, Rochester and the surrounding areas seem demure and unassuming, but like Elder Allen of the movie have a depth and distinction beyond their small stature. During the summer months, upstate New York becomes a mecca for folks curious about the colorful and eventful history of Mormonism. In nearby Palmyra, a pageant depicting major events of the Book of Mormon, including the historical events of its publication is played out under the stars. The annual Hill Cumorah Pageant attracts over 80,000 visitors each summer with its colorful costumes, incredible sound system and incomparable setting. Historical sites significant in LDS Church history abound in the neighborhood. Sites like the family home of LDS Church founder Joseph Smith and the small farmhouse where the LDS Church was officially organized are all within a short drive and receive thousands of visitors each year. Over 400,000 people in 11 Western states have already seen God's Army. The critically acclaimed independent film exceeded expectations by bringing in over $2 million at the box office in limited release at first-run theaters. In some areas God's Army outperformed Hollywood blockbusters like Erin Brockovich and Mission to Mars. National film critic Michael Medved raved about the film, calling it "fascinating, riveting and emotionally satisfying." The L.A. Times called God's Army, "a sensitive and thoughtful probe into questions of faith." God's Army will open in first-run theaters along the rest of the East Coast by the end of summer. For complete information on opening dates and for links to reviews, visit http://www.godsarmythemovie.com. >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Needle Subject: [AML] ANDERSEN, _The Book of Mormon Sleuth_ (Review) Date: 01 Jul 2000 06:09:50 -0700 Review ====== C.B. Andersen, "The Book of Mormon Sleuth" (c) 2000, Carl Blain Andersen Published by Bookcraft, paperback, 279 pages, $9.95 Review by Jeffrey Needle Let me begin with what usually ends a review -- I loved this book! It was a pure delight to read. "The Book of Mormon Sleuth" is the story of young Brandon Andrews, a typical, mischievous Mormon youth, a budding soccer star. The Andrews household is considerable -- Mom and Dad, six children, and Granny, all living under one roof, and constantly getting in each others' way. One day Dad announces that the family will be spending their summer vacation months with Aunt Ella, a kindly relative who lives in Iowa on a pig farm. This isn't exactly how the children had planned to spend their summer, and they all wished that Mom and Dad had made other plans. This wouldn't be their first visit to the pig farm, and two of the children have big plans for the summer. But Aunt Ella phones Brandon to tell him she has a big surprise for him, and will only hint at the surprise by making him look up certain scriptures in the Book of Mormon. Turns out that Aunt Ella has an original Book of Mormon, with a "bookmark" -- a piece of paper with some writing on it -- that ostensibly leads to a "treasure." Suddenly the trip to Aunt Ella's is exciting! But there's trouble afoot. A man by the name of Dr. Andrews is after the "treasure map" in the Book, and he will stop at nothing to get that map. He presents himself as a scholar interested in this printing of the Book of Mormon, but he is actually a vicious, greedy man wanting nothing but material gain. There are really two story lines in this book. The action mostly takes place as this Dr. Anthony pursues the family in their vacation travels. Several times he manages to corner Brandon and some of his siblings. The action scenes are written with rich detail and, to a young person, will be truly harrowing. And at each turn, the children follow the Scriptures and go to God in prayer. Of course, they are delivered from their situations. The second story line is, I suspect, the main focus of the book -- the value of the Scriptures in everyday life. Andersen goes to great lengths to invent situations where young people reading the book will be compelled to open their Scriptures in order to follow the story. At first, this Scripture study is a burden to Brandon, but as the story progresses, he begins to learn that it can be fun. What a great lesson for children! Reading the Book of Mormon can be fun. Children can be taught to make Scripture study an adventure. But it takes time, and effort, on the part of adults to make it so. Aunt Ella is a perfect example. Brandon, while exploring one of the underground storage areas on her farm, finds food items labeled, not with the name of the item, but with a Scripture reference. Sure enough, each reference refers to the food being stored -- bread, honey, etc. What a great idea! Part of the story takes the family to several Mormon historical sites, including Nauvoo. In the process, Dad teaches the children the highlights of Church history. In fact, one of the most exciting portions of the book has the evil Dr. Anthony pursuing two of the children through the underground tunnels beneath the old city. And the children are only able to escape by following Scripture-related clues engraven on the planks covering the tunnels! This is Andersen's first book. He's a very good writer. I hope he continues his writings. He manages to tell the story from the standpoint of a young boy, with all the charm and innocence of youth. At one point, Aunt Ella instructs Brandon to look up every reference to the Liahona: We read every reference I could find about the Liahona, and I learned several things that I hadn't known before. First of all, it was made of brass, not gold. And it said that the writing on the ball gave them understanding about the Lord's ways. I had always sort of thought it said things like "turn right at the second big rock" or something like that. (p. 119) Glimpses of everyday Mormon life are offered with humor and great sympathy. Here is how young Brandon depicts the process of packing their van for the long trip to Aunt Ella's: I must admit Dad had tried to make traveling a little easier. The van *is* pretty big, and a couple of years ago he bought one of those little TV/VCR combos that he hooks up so everybody on the back two seats can watch videotapes as we travel. The only problem is that our family's pretty big, too. I haven't mentioned Chelsea and Daniel before now. Chelsea's five and Danny is three. That makes six kids and three adults, counting Granny. Even with one of those luggage bins on top of the van, by the time we got everybody's junk in with all the people, there wasn't much room left in our 12-seater MAV. (That's what we call it -- the Mormon Assault Vehicle.) And the rule with the TV in the van is this: If either Chelsea or Danny is unhappy in any way, then we have to watch something that they like to watch. I think it's also part of the rule that if they happen to *like* a certain video, then we have to watch it as least *twelve* times before we can go to another tape. (p. 22) Young people will certainly identify with view of family life! Andersen manages to tell the story from a first-person perspective, and that of a young boy, without resorting to peppering the text with easy code words like "cool" and "radical" and all the other stereotypical terms used by grown-ups when they're trying to sound like kids. I highly recommend this book for all ages. Children will love it -- it's an adventure sure to excite the imaginations of young people. And adults will benefit from this book. It will open their eyes to the possibilities of making Scripture study fun for their children. And last, but certainly not least, when was the last time you were able to purchase a great book the whole family could enjoy for only $9.95? --------------- Jeff Needle jeff.needle@general.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] re: New Mormon Fiction Date: 03 Jul 2000 11:54:54 JST (I am forwarding this message from Laurel Brady, with her permission, to AML-List, updating my "New Mormon Fiction" list. It appears that the genres that Mormon authors are them most active in these days are juvenile and children's fiction--Andrew Hall) >From: "Jim and Laurel Brady" > >Andrew: > Thank you for the list of Mormon authors with books coming out this year. I'm anxious to read some of these. I wanted to alert you to a few other Mormon authors with books coming out. My circle of literary friends is mostly confined to those who write for children, but I hope that doesn't suggest to you (or any other AML folks) that these are somehow inferior--writing for children is a demanding, wonderful thing, and since you included Louise Plummer, perhaps you could also include these folks----- Laura Torres - Laura is an author both of fiction and nonfiction, having written several craft books published by Klutz, and her first novel, "November Ever After", which is interesting because it deals with homosexuality and religion both. Laura's next novel "Crossing Montana" is due out I believe in December or January. Carol Lynch Williams, creator of the Latter Day Daughters series, has a new novel--Christmas In Heaven just released. Carol has written something like 20 books, about a dozen for the LDS market, the rest released by national market publishers such as Bantam Doubleday Dell and Penguin-Putnam. She's won a number of awards--(including the Golden Sower award--think that's the right name for it, in which schoolchildren in Nebraska select their favorite novel for the year.) Last but not least, (my agent says I have to shamelessly promote my own stuff so here goes) my novel, "Say You Are My Sister" will be released in September by HarperCollins. This novel was a 1997 winner in the Utah Arts Council literary competion (I forgot to mention Carol has twice won in this same competition.) Thanks again for posting the list. Laurel S. Brady ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tony Markham Subject: Re: [AML] Good Writing Date: 30 Jun 2000 14:41:58 -0400 I have read with interest the various threads on what impedes Mormon Literature from achieving national prominence, why some writers are sometimes sloppy, how bad writers are unaware of how bad they are, and how the same piece of writing ("Secrets" comes to mind) can strike some readers as sensitive and of great worth while at the same time strike other other readers as just another Barbara Eden-Lifetime-Movie-of-the-Week. They all share a common concern: What is "good," specifically, what is "good writing." It reminds me of a mission of the church, to make bad men good and good men better. Is it too grandiose to hope that a list can contribute to making bad writers good and good writers better? It begs the question, is there any such thing as as good writing? Terry's child's Sunday School teacher said that all fiction writing was inherently bad. One of the smartest, most in-tune people who ever lived agreed with her. Plato, in The Republic, said basically that the dramatic poet (and the fiction writer) ought to be banished from a well-ordered society. And before we start quoting the prophets at him, we ought to hear his rather compelling reasons: 1) The rational and well-ordered personality who deals with the hard blows of life with peace and equanamity is a sorry subject for drama (fiction) and is seldom portrayed. 2) The poet (fiction writer) seeks to represent life as is and merely creates a copy of what is real, and the copy is inferior to reality in every respect. 3) Weak-minded people and children will be deceived by the copy and will mistake the illusion of the artist for the reality of life. Artists, visual and poetic, have struggled with Plato for 2500 years. Some have very compelling answers to him, but I think there is value in simply posing his objections and letting the writers think things through for themselves. No easy answers. Another person who thought deeply about "what is good" in terms of art was Tolstoy. I love Tolstoy. He had the courage of his convictions. He was a wealthy nobleman in Imperial Russia, but became convinced such a privileged existence bought at the toil of his serfs was un-Christian. He gave everything away to the poor and tried as best he could to always follow the teachings of Christ. He was the rich, young ruler who asked, "What must I do to follow Thee," who did not go away sorrowing. Instead he had the courage to give all that he had to the poor. And he wrote. And thought deeply about what part a writer can play in God's world. And what constitutes good art. Quite possibly he was insane, many thought so at the time, but his ideas about writing are worth re-visiting from time-to-time: 1) Art (writing) is only good if it serves God. In our modern parlance I think that means that good writing needs to bring a reader closer to unity with God rather than move the reader farther away. It's a bit ambiguous and up to interpretation. It's the next part of Tolstoy's aesthetic theory that is most problematic. 2) Art can only rise to greatness if it is easily apprhended by the common man. If you need some special training or classes or inside information in order to "get it" then it cannot be considered great art. He uses Beethoven's 9th Symphony as an example of a work that aspires to greatness but fails because most of its beauty is beyond the apprehension of the average person. Paradise Lost would clearly fail as great writing even though (imo) a person will get closer to God by reading, studying, and pondering that as by any other non-scripture. By Tolstoy's criteria, Secrets would achieve "greatness" before Paradise Lost. I am thankful for the example of the scriptures. Parables that are simple enough that a child can readily grasp their surface meaning, yet profound enough that their many levels of meaning will flower only over time and through much re-reading. The scriptures use images that recur in different contexts that are meant to alert the reader to a linkage. Things immersed in water for example. The earth in the story of Noah is linked to Christ in the story of his baptism. And link that to the story of the Old Testament prophet (E-somebody) who doused the idols of the wicked priests in water just before he called down fire to consume the whole kit and kaboodle (hmmm...baptism by water and fire). Linkages. I'm sure the scriptures use a whole bunch of other stuff that writers who aspire to be good (let alone great) ought to pay really close attention to and if someone else picks up this thread, maybe we can learn what those things might be. Tony (either a bad writer trying to be good or a good writer trying to be better) Markham - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "lynn gardner" Subject: RE: [AML] New Mormon Fiction Date: 01 Jul 2000 08:50:12 -0700 > >Who knows, the next may become the missionary adventures of Ma And Pa Gardner in Timbuktu! Lynn Gardner Is that really where you're going, Lynn? Kathleen Dalton-Woodbury We're not leaving until after the first of the year so we don't know where we're going, just that we want a two year foreign mission to some far corner of the world -- if that's what the Lord has in mind for us. Will certainly announce when we find out. In the meantime, we have to get the house ready to lease - a formidable task when we've lived here for 15 years - you know, what do you do with your stuff so someone else can fill your house with their stuff!! And I have Opals to finish. But I'm sure there'll be many adventures that can be written about wherever we go, and possibly be the means of encouraging other retired couples to leave the comfort of home and delight of grandkids to further the work. I'm a strong believer in the power of the written word. (Or I wouldn't be knocking myself out doing so much of it when I could be playing golf with my husband! Lynn Gardner - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "lynn gardner" Subject: RE: [AML] New Mormon Fiction Date: 01 Jul 2000 08:53:07 -0700 > Including me--BYU is my Alma Mater, too. Hopeful release date for my book > is July 6-7th. Crossing my fingers! Linda Adams Add me to the list who attended BYU - a hundred years ago. Lynn Gardner - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara@techvoice.com (Barbara R. Hume) Subject: Re: [AML] LDS Church Magazines Are Going Online Date: 01 Jul 2000 10:02:53 -0700 >I have not tried the URL. I suspect that the first part of it, >http://library.lds.org, would be sufficient. This URL took me directly to it. The site is quite user-friendly. barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jim and Laurel Brady" Subject: Re: [AML] Selling Your Writing Date: 01 Jul 2000 10:23:27 -0600 > > My husband suggested the an artist should work and struggle to improve his or > her craft so the national market will be going after the artist instead of > the artist pleading the publishers and buyers. I'm not sure what this means but from what I know of the national market, it doesn't "go after" anybody unless they've been successful already in it or have made a celebrity name for themselves in some other manner than writing (Monica Lewinsky comes to mind here.) I do know of national writers who are "pursued" by publishers, but only during negotiations for a submitted work. This is where manuscript auctions and multiple-book contracts come in. But those are people who've somehow proven themselves in the market already or whose work is so extraordinary or timely they present almost no risk to the publisher. Bottom line: you have to give the national market what it wants in order to make it there. You have to submit work that is excellent in every regard--the writing itself, the subject or theme, the marketability, even the timing has to all be so completely right on it will bowl over the entire editorial and marketing staff. Average or lukewarm just doesn't cut it against the cutthroat competition. (What are the statistics--2% of manuscripts submitted are bought or something like that.) And you have to be persistant: even J. K. Rowling was turned down nearly a dozen times before somebody decided to take a chance on her. But you walk a fine line here--being persistant with a manuscript that isn't ever going to make it is just a waste. A good crit group composed of writers already successful in the national market is essential. Laurel S. Brady - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: parker99@wasatchits.net Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Best LDS Novel of the Date: 01 Jul 2000 19:20:12 -0700 I'd like to vote for Lisa Peck's "_Dangerous Memories_". Of course, it's the only LDS novel I've actually taken the time to complete besides its sequel, _More Precious than Diamonds_, but I found the characters (especially Betsy) dynamic and fun. And the author shows a lot of potential in innovation, with a fresh outlook on the genre. I do read a lot, but normally things like _The Wall Street Journal_, _The New Yorker_ and generally other non fiction items such as "how to" books. I plan to read Rachel Nunes books, and also heard by word of mouth that Dave Wolverton's works are very good. John Thornton - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jerry Enos" Subject: Re: [AML] Re: Writing About Religion Date: 01 Jul 2000 22:14:07 -0600 As a convert to the church a glossary makes sense. I was raised in Southestern Idaho around a lot of LDS people but when I joined the church I needed to learn a whole new language. The jargon was all new and sometimes difficult to understand. And I grew up around it. Konnie Enos > That got me thinking. Perhaps I could handle this problem like other > science fiction novels have handled it. _Dune_ comes to mind. Within > that book is a rich galactic society with lots of strange jargon, and it > isn't explained methodically to simplify things for the reader. But what > _is_ available to the reader is a glossary at the end of the book, so > you can look up a term anytime you want to. It made me wonder about > using that approach to make my book more accessible to non-Mormons. > > -- > D. Michael Martindale > dmichael@wwno.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Melissa Proffitt Subject: [AML] Plug for Amazon.com (was: New Mormon Fiction) Date: 01 Jul 2000 22:42:47 -0600 On Fri, 30 Jun 2000 23:13:22 EDT, Pup7777@aol.com wrote: >I'd like to know how I can sign up for the Amazon.com.'s YA newsletter. = If=20 >you could let me know I'd appreciate it. >Thanks! I was going to reply privately, but maybe others are interested in this. If you have an account with Amazon.com, when you click on the link to it = one of the subheadings under Account Settings is Manage your Subscriptions. After you sign in iot takes you to a big ol' list of checkboxes for all = the subjects they have newsletters for. If you don't have an account, you = only have to create one--don't even have to place an order--to get the same = list. I have found this service to be very helpful for keeping up-to-date on YA and children's releases, though it's not quite so good for some of the = other categories (mainly because I'm already keeping a closer watch on those = than they are and my tastes are esoteric). The newsletter comes out once a = month and there are sometimes interim postings that are more specific, usually interviews with authors publishing in the category you're signed up for. Melissa Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Todd Robert Petersen" Subject: Re: [AML] Re: Writing About Religion Date: 01 Jul 2000 21:10:08 -0500 Jason disagrees about jargon causing some problems, and I disagree with him. iness suit. > When I read Malamud or Singer or Roth, I enjoy > the uses of "rabbi" or "kaddish" or "seder", because it lends to the > "Jewishness" of the story--makes it seem true and real, rounds out > characters, atmospherizes things (a new verb, I think). I'm looking at the three page, two-column yiddish glossary in Henry Roth's MERCY OF A RUDE STREAM. This is necessary, and though Mormons don't speak Yiddish, we do have our own peculiarities (i.e. bishop means something completely different to a Catholic). > As a reader, not knowing a term doesn't distract me, it intrigues > me--especially if it's pertaining to a culture I'm less familiar with. Yeet, goy, shiksa, folentzer, malamut. Do these need explanation? Hebrew, gentile, gentile girl, akward person, Hebrew teacher. Also, when Brian Evenson was combing through my collection, he forbad the use of what he called "word packets," terms and phrases that are cultural or emotional shorthand, which he said undermined my work. It took a lot of doing to keep the character of the religious moments without falling back on things like "still small voice," "greenie," "RM," "deacon," "priest," "elder," "PEC," "PPI," "AP," "Molly," "Franklin," "pride cycle," "ward," etc., etc., etc. Even when we're writing to and for ourselves, we owe it to our readers and to the development of our culture to try and see things in new ways, which is going to mean not realying on the jargon and terminology to carry the cultural touches. That's what Stephen King does: put in a Coke can, and bingo--it's verisimilitude. It's of course, nothing of the sort. Just lazy writing. We, of course, and as always, need to take care. Todd Robert Petersen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Katrina Duvalois" Subject: RE: [AML] Selling Your Writing Date: 01 Jul 2000 23:12:30 -0700 Although I am a bit of a lurker here, and not as profound or intellectual as some of you, I found this discussion irresistable. -- Ronn wrote: Is good writing _necessary_ to becoming a best-selling author? Is good writing _sufficient_ to becoming a best-selling author? Since _good_ can be defined in such a vast spectrum, I would prefuer to use the word _talented_. I do not believe that true literature, or a talented writer, will necessarily become a best-seller. Best-selling novels seem to be those that either have the best marketing strategies, or as earlier mentioned, gripping plotlines. As far as choosing novels based on a particular writer, I have found that I sometimes really like one or two novels by a certain writer, but then may come across something I think is atrocious, either plot or writing. For example: Amy Tan. I think she is a very talented writer. I loved _The Joy Luck Club_ and _The Kitchen God's Wife_ but the last one I read, something about _Yin Eyes_, I did not like at all. Part of it was the plot but most of it was that it just wasn't written as well as the other two. So, in response, I think no, good writing is not necessary. If you look at different best sellers based on genre, you will find a large amount of writers who have best sellers continuously, but stink. I think they just got lucky. Since Romance is my genre, I have been reading a variety of mainstream Romance novels (bodice rippers--if you will) and there aren't too many good writers out there writing Romance. The best selling authors are Danielle Steel, Nora Roberts and LaVryl Spencer (and others, but these are the ones I've read the most). Of the three I enjoy Nora Roberts best, but that varies. I have read enough of her novels to be able to pick up on her formula and find them fairly predictable. Lavryl Spencer is actually getting better. I read her first novel recently and followed with a later one, and the later one was definitely written better. And Danielle Steel? I think if I say what I really think I am going to get into trouble, suffice it to say that she may have started out well, but she has definitely gone _commercial_. She may even have ghost writers, I don't know because I neither read her books or follow her career (I should say anymore, because I did read her stuff until she came out with _No Greater Love_, which I did not like, so I stopped reading her stuff). But I know she's a best-seller! Are any of these authors _good_ or _talented_ writers? To a point, but that is not what is making them best-selling authors. They write to an audience, and the audience sucks them up. I have great respect and send many kudos to Lynn Gardner. Whether or not she is the best L.D.S. fiction writer, she has created a new genre. Until her books came along I do not know of any other L.D.S. writer that wrote Romance/Mystery/Thrillers the likes of Mary Stewart and Mary Higgins Clark. Thanks to her us fiction writers have a whole new genre to work with. And as mentioned in another post the YA market is eating them up! I think that's great. Is she a _good_ writer, maybe. Is she a best-seller? Not really. It depends on your standard. I can't even find her books except at the church bookstore, but by L.D.S. fiction standard I believe she's doing pretty well. Did she do something great for L.D.S. fiction? Absolutely! Is good writing possibly _detrimental_ to becoming a best-selling author? This is an interesting question. I took a creative writing class at the local Jr. college and our instructor was into _literature as art_. He claimed his class was _Rated R_ which basically meant that we were not allowed to be offended. Unfortunately some of the students in the class took this to mean that soft porn made good literature. It didn't. There was one student that I felt was an incredibly gifted writer. He didn't like mormons and would write a bit of anti-mormon plots (this was in CA, BTW), but it was INCREDIBLE! Unfortunately he didn't apply himself and ended up dropping out about halfway through the class. Another student wrote gobbly-gook and called it _art_. It didn't even make sense. I was left to wonder how we determine what is _good_ writing. (BTW, they didn't like anything I wrote until I submitted a tongue-in-cheek _Melrose Place_ type short story. I was almost ashamed to put my name to it, but the class loved it, go figure.) So, is it detrimental to be _good_? Sometimes, maybe, but I do think that eventually really _good_ writing will be discovered, unfortunately it may be after the author is dead. I have made a point of finding out which books recieve the Pulitzer and other awards and read them. Some of them are best sellers, some aren't. If you get picked to be part of Oprah's book club, your sales will go up dramatically. That's marketing. Does quality of writing have _anything_ to do with sales? Yes. I believe that if a book is well-written and people like it, they will tell their friends, then they'll tell two friends and they'll tell two friends... and so on (ya know what I'm talkin' about?). In that case, it is the writing that sells it, and the best marketing is done by word of mouth. If you're lucky enough to get noticed by a celebrity or talk show host (see Oprah, above) then you will benefit that way as well and that could lead to becoming a best-seller. Unfortunately I think that a lot of really _good_ writing is overlooked by the hype that goes with previously best-selling authors. I found the anecdote of the interview with the best-selling writer thought provoking. What do I want? Is it more important to be a _good_ writer, or a _best-selling_ writer? Of course, I want both, but do I have the talent? And with that, do I have the drive and determination to make the production of stories, articles, essays, or whatever I decide to write as good as they can be? Then, even if they are any good, do I have a chance of an ice cube in hell to be noticed and published? And, lastly, does it matter? Why do I write? I know why I write, and I know what I like to read, and that is what I write. Is it good? Some of it is, and some of it is, admittedly, fluff. So what? Katrina Duvalois - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Deborah Wager Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About Religion Date: 02 Jul 2000 07:07:38 -0600 "D. Michael Martindale" wrote: > isn't explained methodically to simplify things for the reader. But what > _is_ available to the reader is a glossary at the end of the book, so > you can look up a term anytime you want to. It made me wonder about > using that approach to make my book more accessible to non-Mormons. Ack! Michael! I'm speaking from my gut here, as a reader, so maybe I'm all wet, but the only books I see that have glossaries are books with constructed (i.e., not real) universes (science fiction and fantasy) and instructional books. If your writing is strong enough the reader will work through the unfamiliar jargon. Didn't your writing group say they liked it? This doesn't sound like negative criticism to me. Now I've read all the Father Tim books and I still don't know what it means to sit on the gospel side, though I went so far as to call my brother-in-law who went to an Anglican high school to ask him (but it turns out he only went there for school, and worshiped as a Roman Catholic, so he didn't know). But I know it's significant by the stress the characters place on it and it doesn't stop the story for me to not know. As a matter of fact, jargon I get the gist of but probably don't fully understand adds to the realism and perceived authenticity of Jan Karon's books and of Chaim Potok's also (which I've started re-reading partly in response to this thread). A glossary would move these books to another place in my psyche; I don't know why, but I believe I would enjoy them less. My $.02 Debbie Wager - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jason Steed" Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About Religion Date: 02 Jul 2000 11:50:29 PDT >That got me thinking. Perhaps I could handle this problem like other >science fiction novels have handled it. _Dune_ comes to mind. Within >that book is a rich galactic society with lots of strange jargon, and it >isn't explained methodically to simplify things for the reader. But what >_is_ available to the reader is a glossary at the end of the book, so >you can look up a term anytime you want to. It made me wonder about >using that approach to make my book more accessible to non-Mormons. This is certainly a possibility. Chinua Achebe's _Things Fall Apart_ has a glossary of Ibo words and phrases in the back; Allegra Goodman's _Total Immersion_ has one of Jewish terms...I don't see why--if there are enough instances to warrant it--a Mormon book couldn't have the same thing... Jason ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Valerie Holladay Subject: Re: [AML] Andrew's Poll: vote Date: 02 Jul 2000 13:31:49 -0700 (PDT) In response to Andrew's Poll I'd like to mention Marilyn Brown's *Statehood,* which didn't get near the attention it deserved. I went through a big Church history phase in college and burned out on it, so I don't generally read historical fiction (LDS or otherwise, though I've read and enjoyed most of Anne Perry's) but Marilyn is in a class by herself. Her characters are wonderful, her writing is poetic, and she has the most beautiful, tasteful, and lyrical love scene that I've never seen equaled. I understand that she initially submitted it Deseret Book, where it got great reviews from the reviewers but since it dealt with polygamy, and the contination of plural marriage after the Manifesto . . . well, enough said. There's also a wonderfully compassionate and problematic portrayal of a Church leader - quite comparable to Maureen Whipple's *Giant Joshua* IMO. It does seem that this poll hasn't generated the response of earlier polls. Some time ago someone made the remark that it seemed like people wanted to publish in the LDS market, but they weren't reading what was out there. I'm wondering if that's still the case and if that's why the response seems so meagre. Valerie Holladay __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Shawn and Melinda Ambrose" Subject: RE: [AML] Writing About Religion Date: 02 Jul 2000 23:17:38 -0400 Hall said that writers are the zoo animals of English departments, and that the outstanding critics of the mid-20th century, the people who established and shaped AmLit as a discipline, like Robert Penn Warren, John Crowe Ransom and Lionel Trilling, became superb critics so that their colleagues would not be able to ignore or shrug off their poetry and fiction. We need superb Mormon critics writing superbly about Mormon literature in critical journals, and in magazines. Someone could examine several months of AML-List and open an interesting window on Mormon culture in Time, Newsweek, Harpers, The Atlantic or any number of magazines, if done with the right touch. Harlow S. Clark ________________________________________________________________ Whoa, whoa, whoa!!! Wait a minute. If our goal(s) in writing the great Mormon novel and being recognized nationwide and becoming best-selling means being critiqued to death in college courses, forget it! I'd rather write pointed fluff pieces. ("pointed" meaning having a definite point to get across, and "fluff" meaning being light reading not taken seriously by the academics-come in under their radar, so to speak-an example might be _Starship Troopers_ by Robert Heinlein) Melinda L. Ambrose - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] Pioneer Stories Date: 02 Jul 2000 18:45:02 JST Somebody mentioned last week that they were disappointed by Gerald Lund's recent book about the handcart pioneers, and someone else complained that much of our fiction is about the pioneers (or something like that). That got me thinking about the settings of recent Mormon fiction, and I realized that very few of our better writers write historical fiction. That wasn't true for the "Lost Generation" writers--Vardis Fisher (Children of God), Maurine Whipple (The Joshua Tree), Virginia Sorensen (A Little Lower than the Angels), and Samuel W. Taylor (Nightfall at Nauvoo) all wrote historical fiction, set in the Joseph Smith period, the pioneer period, or the "frontier" (c. 1850-1900) period. Today, however, while The Work and the Glory and The Storm Testament have been big sellers, our better authors seem have avoided writing prose fiction set in the past. I wonder if this has to do with a more general literary trend of looking down on historical fiction, regulating it to lesser, pot-boiler type authors. Our history is so interesting, however, I'd love to see more good writers doing things with it. It seems like it would be a good way to break into a bigger Mormon market as well. Then again, it is also a good way to get people mad at you. Better authors inevitably look at the complexity of the past, and would be less likely to overlook the weaknesses of our forefathers and mothers. And look what happened to Maurine Whipple when she did that. There are a few exception to what I've said. Eileen Gibbons Kump and Marilyn Brown have both written about "frontier era" Utah, Orson Scott Card wrote about the Nauvoo era in Saints, and Margaret Young and Darius Gray are writing about black pioneers. Also, our playwrights have shown absolutely no reluctance about setting their stories in Mormonism's past. This includes James Arrington, Orson Scott Card, Thom Duncan, Susan Howe, Elizabeth Hanson, Clinton Larson, Robert Lauer, Robert Paxton, Steven Kapp Perry, Eric Samuelson, Tim Slover, and Tom Rogers. I wonder why the difference between the playwrights and the prose authors? Andrew Hall ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Valerie Holladay Subject: [AML] Quality Writing/Editing (was: Andrew's Poll: vote) Date: 02 Jul 2000 14:00:29 -0700 (PDT) This is in response to Annette Lyon's concern about popular but sloppy writing, editing, etc. > I've read quite a lot of other LDS fiction recently, > and much of it seems to be getting sloppy. . . >It seems to me that the more popular an author > becomes . . ., the more a publisher knows the name >will sell, the sloppier the end product. Don't > popular writers care about the craft anymore? And > don't their editors care about producing a decent >product? Or does the editor believe the writer is > beyond editing? Unfortunately, I'm afraid that it's > just the sales they care about, and so they (all >parties) don't bother polishing the manuscript > because after all, the book will fly off shelves if > certain names on on the cover. I think everyone on the list has seen this kind of problem, given the reading most of us do. But I can see a couple of other reasons than those above. For example, every book is submitted to budgets and deadlines. And let's say the writer is writing faster to meet, say, a 5-book contract, so the book actually needs more editing but short of editing the book on his/her own time, the editor can't do much about it. Or let's say, the author has become very successful, and has had a few of his/her friends on the book as preliminary reviewers, and they all say the book is the best one yet, so the author doesn't feel there's any need for changes. Or maybe someone misses a deadline, and there's a ripple effect where corners get cut and the end result is a mediocre book. As an English major, I remember the phrase, "You never finish a paper; you just run out of time." Both writing and editing a book will take as much time as you will give it, and editing hours can mean $50-200 an hour in budget. And if a book costs more to make than it brings in in sales . . . . well, you don't have to be an accounting major to know there's a problem. Although I care about what's inside a book, I understand that not everyone in publishing cares as much about the words as the editors do - and that's how it should be. I'd hate to see a publishing company run strictly by one type of people, or any company for that matter. Although the numbers end of the business frustrates me at times, I also am grateful that someone else has the ability and interest to do that. It just means that, as in all relationships--writer/editor, editor/accountant, etc., we try to understand the other side and why they operate as they do and appreciate what they bring to the endeavor. Just my thoughts. Valerie Holladay __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: [AML] Non-Utah Culture Stories Date: 03 Jul 2000 04:22:30 -0600 In light of recent comments about LDS literature primarily reflecting white Utah culture, Jason Steed and I are trying to put together a list of short stories written by LDS members which do _not_ reflect that culture. Possible inclusions are stories by non-Mountain West white members, non-traditional members (e.g. gay members), non-white authors, or non-American authors. Presumably the setting for these stories would not be the Mountain West region, unless there is some other vital aspect of the story which is non-traditional. We would welcome all the assistance any of you fine members of AML-List could give us in pointing out any qualifying short literature you are aware of. This wouldn't necessarily have to be published literature, but it would be nice if it were _good_. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Neal Kramer Subject: Re: [AML] Community Theater Date: 03 Jul 2000 10:22:25 -0600 I'm going to add two very inflated cents to the follwing comments: >Thom Duncan: > >In reality, the only thing that matters, regardless of the >sincerity of the creators of a work of art, is the final product. >Is it worth the money one pays to see it? > >... were I still a reviewer, I would never completely pan any >play produced by a community theatre. Having been there, >done that, I realize how difficult it can be to get the best >talent when you're not paying anyone. I disagree, but only slightly. I think reviewer/critics have a larger obligation to the communities they and community theater both serve. They work together to convince the community that artistic endeavor enhances the life of the community. The critic who pans productions unintentionally tells the community at large that community theater isn't important, that it has no value for the community. Reviewer/critics must know their communities and adjust their roles accordingly. In my community--BYU and Provo/Orem--we need help from reviewers to help our community theaters survive and then get progressively better. Panning productions only guarantees that the theaters will go out of business. If watching a Farelly brothers film is worth $7.50, community theater by definition is worth the money you pay for a ticket. Neal Kramer - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: RE: [AML] AML-List Lunch Date: 03 Jul 2000 11:48:35 -0700 I would recommend Thai Chili Gardens but am open to other things. If enough people are interested, I would be happy to arrange a dinner for = Thursday evening, July 21st. Let me know. Chris Bigelow * * * * * * Interested in novels, stories, poems, plays, and films by, for, or about = Mormons? Check out IRREANTUM magazine at www.xmission.com/~aml/irreantum.ht= m. >>> "Tracie Laulusa" 06/30 1:13 PM >>> Benson, The conference is Monday 17 -Thurs. 21 July. It looks like from 4-7 pm is open for dinner or computer lab time each evening. The conference ends at 4:15 on Thurs so that may be the best night. I'm not flying out til = Friday. Anyone else on the list planning on being there? Are we going to do a dinner during the CES conference like we did last = year? And Chris, it's been a long time since I was at BYU so I have no idea of where a good place would be or anything. I also won't be on my e-mail for about a week prior to the probable dinner. It would probably be better to have someone in the vicinity set it up. Tracie - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara@techvoice.com (Barbara R. Hume) Subject: [AML] Reviewing New Mormon Fiction Date: 03 Jul 2000 15:24:14 -0700 For several months now, I've been reviewing books for Under the Covers, the largest book review site on the Web that I know of. So far I've done only genre fiction--romances and mysteries. Many kinds of books are reviewed there, however. Today it occurred to me for the first time that maybe I should post reviews of LDS novels there. Right now I'm reading the third Trust Williams novel to review for Jana. Why not put a review up on UTC? Or would it be better to simply post reader reviews on Amazon? I don't know whether using the word "Mormon" or "LDS" would simply tell people not to buy it. I tried to put myself into a similar position: Would I want to read a book with a hero who is a Jehovah's Witness? Or would my opinions and prejudices get in the way? When "everybody knows" a group is a cult and is totally wrong, who wants to read about them? If a book portrays a member of a weird sect like the Mormons shows them in a positive light, will I simply assume it's propaganda? Also, I notice that B. Dalton (at least the one in the Orem mall) is asking customers to write reviews for books we like, to be placed into a binder they keep by the register to help people make selections. Maybe we could review some LDS novels there. barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "R.W. Rasband" Subject: Re: [AML] Plug for Amazon.com Date: 03 Jul 2000 15:43:13 PDT I wholeheartedly agree. Amazon.com (whatever your opinion of what they are doing to independent bookstores) is a great source for information about new books. Their e-mail subscription service is invaluable. It's also fun to review books on their massive website. I've reviewed a number of LDS books along with some secular literature. It's fun and it don't cost nothin'. And maybe if enough of us here on AML-List will review more and more LDS books on the site, we can stir up more interest in Mormon lit, and network with readers of a similar mind. R.W. Rasband Heber City, UT rrasband@hotmail.com >I have found this service to be very helpful for keeping up-to-date on YA >and children's releases, though it's not quite so good for some of the >other >categories (mainly because I'm already keeping a closer watch on those than >they are and my tastes are esoteric). The newsletter comes out once a >month >and there are sometimes interim postings that are more specific, usually >interviews with authors publishing in the category you're signed up for. > >Melissa Proffitt > > > > >- >AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature >http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara@techvoice.com (Barbara R. Hume) Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About Religion Date: 03 Jul 2000 16:42:33 -0700 >As a convert to the church a glossary makes sense. I was raised in >Southestern Idaho around a lot of LDS people but when I joined the church I >needed to learn a whole new language. The jargon was all new and sometimes >difficult to understand. And I grew up around it. > >Konnie Enos Yeah. I still don't know what "sitting on the gospel side" means in the Episcopelian Church. barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Darvell" Subject: RE: [AML] New Mormon Fiction Date: 03 Jul 2000 17:44:26 -0500 lynn gardner (lgardner@hughes.net) wrote: >Add me to the list who attended BYU - a hundred years ago. Lynn Gardner Please tell us -- What was Brigham Young _really like?_ ;) Darvell _____________________________________________ Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! http://www.MyOwnEmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "R.W. Rasband" Subject: [AML] DUTCHER, _God's Army_ (and Reviewing) Date: 03 Jul 2000 15:49:56 PDT I have absolutely no desire to review "God's Army" and I will tell you why. I didn't care for it, and yet I can see the value it has for many of my brothers and sisters in the church. If it were an egregiously bad movie that cast a bad light on us, I would be tempted to say something, but it was made in good faith by people who are not unskilled. So who am I to be Oscar the Grouch at the party? But I suspect there are more than a few who find themselves with the same dilemma. R.W. Rasband Heber City, UT rrasband@hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Good Writing Date: 03 Jul 2000 23:56:17 -0600 Tony Markham wrote: > Plato, in The Republic, said basically that the dramatic poet (and the > fiction writer) ought to be banished from a well-ordered society. And before > we start quoting the prophets at him, we ought to hear his rather compelling > reasons: 1) The rational and well-ordered personality who deals with the hard > blows of life with peace and equanamity is a sorry subject for drama (fiction) > and is seldom portrayed. 2) The poet (fiction writer) seeks to represent life > as is and merely creates a copy of what is real, and the copy is inferior to > reality in every respect. 3) Weak-minded people and children will be deceived > by the copy and will mistake the illusion of the artist for the reality of > life. Plato defeats his own argument, because where is the well-ordered society? Where is the rational and well-ordered personality who deals with the hard blows of life with peace and equanimity? I've never met him. Maybe Plato's argument can be used to assert that art doesn't exist in the celestial kingdom (something I would also find hard to accept), but what has it to do with real life? Life and the inhabitants thereof are chaotic. Yes, it's true that the copy of life that the artist makes is inferior, but that is its strength. The copy brings order and simplicity to the overwhelming complexity of life so we can make sense of it and better see the truths behind it. It's the same approach science uses to understand the confusing universe: designing simplistic models that humans can wrap their minds around. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pup7777@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Selling Your Writing Date: 03 Jul 2000 19:44:33 EDT In a message dated 00-07-03 17:06:48 EDT, you write: << verage or lukewarm just doesn't cut it against the cutthroat competition. (What are the statistics--2% of manuscripts submitted are bought or something like that.) And you have to be persistant: even J. K. Rowling was turned down nearly a dozen times before somebody decided to take a chance on her. But you walk a fine line here--being persistant with a manuscript that isn't ever going to make it is just a waste. A good crit group composed of writers already successful in the national market is essential. >> First off I want to say congrats to Laurel for getting published in the national market!!!! Way to go. I look forward to reading you book when it comes out this fall. Please send me a reminder when it is out. Second, I totally agree with your opinion. I do think some fabulous manuscripts are overlooked and not published. I listened to the classic book A Wrinkle in Time on tape the other day and Madeleine L'Engle commented at the first of the book how this book almost didn't make it published because her book was so different from what has been done before. I am grateful that her publisher took a risk on her (I'm sure they are too.) The more I think about J.K. Rowlings books the more I believe she did have an understanding of the market even though her book was much longer then most middle novels. In her genre, fantasy, children's books can be longer than the general children's books. They also can be more complex which Rowlings did not do. Keeping it at a more simple level broaden her audience. She was able to reach readers she normally would not have gotten. She also followed the typical pattern in sf/ fantasy of starting with the birth of the character. As far as the children market is concerned, boys typically won't read about girls and girls will read about boys. So she was wise in choosing the boy as the main character. She kept the girls satisfied with one of the secondary major characters being a girl (which better not be the person who dies in the fourth book). Rowlings does well in her writing in staying true to a twelve years voice, which is important and hard to do. She also has Harry be the awkward underdog, which almost every person can understands and it gains the reader's sympathy. Plus she has him get in and out of his own problems. And plot. Boys love plot and want tons of action and for the most part she does it. Those Quidditch games get a little tedious at times, but I wonder how a middle grade boy would respond. They probably love every minute. Rowlings sighs and hisses way too much and has a ton of misplace modifiers, but that is easily overlooked from the desire to want to know what is next. She writes about a complex other world so well that you feel you are there. The only thing I see as a big criticism is her first book starts out slow and I wonder what it was about the beginning that drew so many people. I read on because my daughter was breathing down my neck saying things like, "Are you to ...part yet? Hurry, Mom. You're taking forever." And, "Do you want to know what happens?" I'd be interested if anyone else sees other ways Rowlings book fits the market and other things she did with the book to make it the success that it is. Lisa Peck PS I'm trying to start up a children's critic group. We have several commitment members that meet monthly at my house. Any body in the Orem area and are interested, email me and I'll give you more details. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: Re: [AML] Race and Culture in LDS Lit. Date: 04 Jul 2000 00:40:05 -0700 On Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:02:29 Clark Goble writes: > Race is one of those things I think ought to be > assigned to the waste heap myself. Race has become too > complex as intermarriages increase. We have an intermarried couple in our ward with 5 children. I almost wrote "5 black children," but what does that refer to, their skin color, or their race? (I love the irony in the idea Malcolm X latched onto for a while, that since black is dominant and white recessive the white race must be the invention of a mad geneticist.) As a description of (light) skin color saying "5 black children," would be accurate, but as a description of race it would be just as accurate to call them white, in some ways more accurate, especially by analogy to Judaism, where your mother, not your father, makes you a Jew. We also have a family who has adopted 6 black children through an agency in Philadelphia. As babies several had health problems. They named one Strider (I think after Tolkien). The doctor asked them if they knew that strider is a respiratory disorder, which he had. They didn't. One of the things I mourn is that as a race we humans take minor differences and magnify their importance, but as with dogs, if you take two fertile humans of whatever disparate races, they will produce fertile offspring, which, as a former student pointed out, makes us all of the same species, just as all dogs are of the same species. There's a linguistic equivalent to that observation. Terry Blodgett wrote a piece in the February 1994 Ensign "Tracing the Dispersion" of the 10 tribes through northern Europe through semitic root words and words. One of the treasures is the semitic root blk, which gives us both black and blanc, or as 2 Nephi 26:33 has it "black and white . . . all are alike unto God." I treasure such things, want more awareness of the oneness of all flesh before God in my writing, and my reading. Harlow S. Clark ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: Re: [AML] Race and Culture in LDS Lit. Date: 04 Jul 2000 01:01:34 -0700 On Thu, 22 Jun 2000 18:59:21 PDT "Jason Steed" quotes Margaret Young, > >Michael Fillerup and I once chatted about doing a collection of > >stories (various authors) from many cultures--but I suspect he's as > >busy as I am, so we haven't pursued that at all. Maybe someone > >else should catch that ball and run with it. Then adds, > If someone else is interested, I would like VERY MUCH to co-edit a > volume like this... Anyone??? Yau chr yi-bai chr. (proof that AML-List affects someone's diction. Back on Dec 24 1988, in the thread "Is Eric Always Serious," LauraMaery Gold said, "When I lived in Taiwan, I once said, in agreeing with a Chinese roommate, 'Ya, sure, yabetcha.' My roommate looked at me, puzzled at my bad 'Chinese', and asked 'Want to eat one thousand teeth?' (Yau chr yi-bai chr). Heh-heh.") I can think of several stories I'd love to see, in such an anthology, like Michael Fillerup's The Last Code Talker, Hozhoogoo Nanina Doo, Lost and Found. Deborah Fillerup Weagel has a special interest in the Francophone world and has talked about writing some fiction (she already has some essays--no need to limit to one genre), so that could be interesting juxtaposition of family members. Margaret Young's tragic and haunting "Miguel Aju," or "Dirge for Rosaidalva Aju." Sharlee Mullins Glenn could use this as an occasion to write more about Red Ant Colorow and Grandpa, something she very much needs to do after introducing those characters in Circle Dance A. E. Cannon's _The Shadow Brothers_ is a superb novel about Anglo/Indian relationships. Maybe we could get her to write a short story. My former student Thomas Musoni from Zimbabwe has a nice satirical essay about the British colonists there. Cathy Wilson has a gripping ethnic story about a man who introduces his wife to the woman he wants to marry when polygamy is reinstated. Could produce something really fine, perhaps we could even get something about eating 1000 Chinese teeth from Lily Toy Hong. (Indeed, we do have an Amy Tan in our midst, but she writes for children and draws pictures, so we're not as aware of her. Harlow Soderborg (one of those dour self-abnegating Swedes) Clark ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagh. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] HUNTSMAN, _Woman in the Wind: The Drusilla Hendricks Story_ Date: 04 Jul 2000 16:05:57 JST Deseret News, July 2, 2000 Musicals, comedies opening WOMAN IN THE WIND: THE DRUSILLA HENDRICKS STORY, written and produced by Karla Huntsman, Drusilla's great-great-granddaughter, will play for three nights only in UVSC's Ragan Theatre. Performances are 8 p.m., July 6, 7 and 8. The Deseret Dance Theater production features Eryn Crawford Todd as Drusilla, Wesley Nelson as her husband, James, and Huntsman as the narrator. Parts of Drusilla Hendricks' story have been quoted in "The Work and the Glory" series and numerous LDS Church publications. Drusilla's husband was shot at the Battle of Crooked River and was paralyzed from the neck down. Through vignettes, music and choreographed movement, "Woman in the Wind" tells the story of their struggles to move forward and raise their five children. The show's musical score was composed by Kathleen Newton and Machelle Thompson. The playwright, Karla Huntsman, is an adjunct faculty member in the BYU Theater Arts Department. Tickets are $8 for adults and $5 for children, 3-11. They can be reserved in advance by calling 226-1083. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara@techvoice.com (Barbara R. Hume) Subject: [AML] Defending the Romance Genre (was: Selling Your Writing) Date: 04 Jul 2000 16:58:44 -0700 Katrina Duvalois wrote: >Since Romance is my genre, I have been reading a variety of mainstream >Romance novels (bodice rippers--if you will) and there aren't too many good >writers out there writing Romance. I must differ with you on several points. First, please do not judge the romance genre by mainstream romances. Because they are mainstream, they do not fulfill the expectations of most romance readers. Mainstream writers do not satisfy the requirement that romance readers want: the HEA (happily ever after) ending. There is a difference between romances and women's fiction, which casually violates that requirement by killing off the hero or heroine or otherwise creating a story that is not ultimately satisfying or uplifting. Second, please do not use the outdated term "bodice rippers." I don't think it ever applied to mainstream, but came about because of a trend that appeared in the mid-70s with Kathleen Woodiwiss' THE FLAME AND THE FLOWER. In this horrible book, the hero actually raped the heroine, but then redeemed himself. Ha. For a while the industry churned out tons of copycat books with this kind of storyline, but it didn't hold the romance readers for long. We don't want rapists; we want heroes. Third, it is inaccurate to say there are few good romance writers. Part of the problem here seems to be that you are reading contemporary romances and women's fiction. I don't like these, either, but that doesn't mean none of the writers are good. Danielle Steele is not a romance writer--she writes mainstream books called "big, sexy novels." LaVryl Spencer writes interesting books, but they are more women's fiction than romance. I agree with you about Nora Roberts in that she writes the same story over and over, and I don't like the story--mainly because her characters have the modern attitude that sex is for fun and entertainment and it's okay to hop in bed with anyone who looks interesting--but a writer with something like 70 million books in print must know something we don't. I don't see how you can say romance is your genre when your exposure to it seems limited to a certain type, and that not truly representative. May I suggest a few authors for you to try, and then see if your opinion changes? Mary Jo Putney (her books are almost always about redemption) Mary Balogh Judith Lansdowne Diane Farr Jo Beverley Debra Dier Julie Garwood Stephanie Laurens Kathy Maxwell Carla Kelly Barbara Metzger Malia Martin (Malia is LDS, BTW) Read a few of these writers. Analyze what they are doing in terms of characterization, theme, and structure. Then tell me they're not good. You can't do it. barbara hume [MOD: I know of at least one other LDS historical romance writer: Elizabeth Lane, whom I worked with at Wicat. I know she published several novels with various publishers that went out of print, and is now in the middle of a three-novel contract (I think) with Harlequin. I read only a few small selections of one of her books--romance *isn't* my genre, I'm afraid--but she was a very bright person, a good and imaginative writer of educational software materials (I was her editor at times), and I rather imagine that she's good at the type of writing she does.] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Pioneer Stories Date: 05 Jul 2000 05:24:03 -0600 Andrew Hall wrote: > Today, however, while The Work and the > Glory and The Storm Testament have been big sellers, our better authors seem > have avoided writing prose fiction set in the past. I wonder if this has to > do with a more general literary trend of looking down on historical fiction, > regulating it to lesser, pot-boiler type authors. I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, the idea of writing historical fiction is daunting. One of two things will happen: either it will be laughingly inaccurate garbage, or I will be faced with a monumental research project to get it right. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: Re: [AML] Non-Utah Culture Stories Date: 05 Jul 2000 12:06:35 JST >Jason Steed and I are trying to put together a list >of short stories written by LDS members which do _not_ reflect that >culture. Okay, here goes. Most of these are written by people from "the culture", while being about things outside the culture. First start out with Margaret Blair Young and Michael Fillerup's stories. Young, Margaret Blair. _Love Chains_, Signature, 1997. One group of stories is about Indian members of the Church in Guatemala, where Young lived for a while. Some are told through the eyes of an American visitor, but some are told through the Indians' POV. Then there are at least two stories on Mormon Whites and their non-Mormon Black friends, both told from the POV of the White Mormon. Although her stories in _Elegies and Love Songs_. U. of Idaho, 1992, tend to stress Mormon themes less, there are some stories that would fit your bill in there, too. One about Cambodian-Americans. Fillerup, Michael, _Visions and Other Stories_. Signature, 1990. There is a section of stories about Mormons and Navajos, mostly told from the White Mormon POV, I think. I haven't read it yet, but I bet his "The Last Code Talker" Dialogue, 1999 is about Navajos, too. The only other story about African-Americans and the Church that I can think of is the one by Jack Weyland in _Turning Hearts: Short Stories on Family Life_, ed. by Orson Scott Card and David Dollahite, Bookcraft, 1994. I forget the name of the story, but it is from the POV of a young Black girl who investigates the Church, sticking with it in spite of the insulting reaction she gets from a white member. An OK story. Also, there was a play at BYU in 1996 by Scott Livingston called "Free at Last", about missionaries and black investigators in Tennessee in 1978. Now, there are several stories about missionaries, usually from the Intermountain West, who are serving in foreign countries. For example Elouise Bell's "A Generous Heart." in _Christmas for the World_, Aspen 1991, a very good Christmas story set in France. Tom Rogers has a similar one in the same collection. Also that great Levi Peterson story about the missionaries in France who convert a woman (who has a crush on one of the missionaries) and try to convert her existential brother. Told from the brother's POV. I forget what it is called, but I think it might be in his anthology of stories _Greening Wheat: Fifteen Mormon Short Stories_, Orion, 1983. Solomon, Michael Ray. "The Sheet of Our True Lord Jesus." Sunstone 10:1, 1985. A wrenching story about a branch in a poor village in Latin America after the missionaries have left. It was the 1st place winner in the Sunstone contest that year. I was looking through the stories on the Inscape (BYU literary journal) web page a few months ago. A ton of them are about missionaries serving in foreign countries. The one I liked the most was "Wrestling Esau" by Jonathon Penny. Inscape, 18:2, 1999. Bela Petsco's _Nothing Very Important and Other Stories_, Orion, 1979, is a great collection of connected missionary short stories. The main character is a Hungarian-American from New York City, who is serving a mission in California. Homosexuality is a theme in a couple of the stories. Gladys Clark Farmer, _Elders and Sisters_. Seagull Books, 1977. Connected short stories about missionaries in France. There are a ton of "nontraditional" stories in _In Our Lovely Deseret: Mormon Fictions_ ed. by Robert Raleigh. Signature, 1998. Several are set in foreign countries, one I remember is set in Hong Kong. Three stories have homosexual themes, two of them involving missionaries. One of the missionary stories was pretty good, I think it was called "Milk," the other two stunk. There were a lot of the stories in this collection that were weak. There is a very good story about an Indian girl who is placed with a white Mormon family. It has a great scene at the end where her father comes to the church, gets up to speak, and pelts the congregation with marshmallows, telling them that they are like the marshmallows, sweet and fluffy, but with no substance. Outside of the short story genre, Sharlee Glenn wrote that novel about Indian placement, _Circle Dance_. Bookcraft, 1998. And Helen Sekaquaptewa and Louise Udall wrote _Me and Mine_, an autobiography of a Hopi Mormon convert, which is widely studied in Native American Lit. classes. Several of Walter Kirn's stories in _My Hard Bargain_, Knopf 1990, which won the 1990 AML Short story award, are about a young convert living in the Midwest, reflecting Kirn's own past. Also his "Mormon Eden" New Yorker, June 1997, about the young convert visiting Nauvoo. It is part of his recent novel _Thumbsucker"_. Julie Nichols' story "The Fifth Element". Sunstone, Nov. 1997 was about a new-agey pair of single sisters who have an impact on a young girl. The new-agey-ness makes it non-traditional. Then there are the speculative fiction stories. OSC's "West" from _Folk of the Fringe_ is a good one, with a Mormon character and Indians in Brazil. [MOD: I believe this is actually "America," in the same volume.] Most of the rest are pretty irrelevant to Mormonism. But I like Russell Asplund's "Rabbi Leitsch" stories. Asplund was editor of Leading Edge for a while. His stories are: "The Unhappy Golem of Rabbi Leitsch" Writers of the Future XII 1996. "Ascension," Amazing Fall 1999. "The Dybbuk in the Bottle," in _Silver Birch, Blood Moon_, Avon, 1999. "Balkan Siege." Realms of Fantasy (August 1997). "Der Ring des Niebelungen." Marion Zimmer Bradley's Fantasy, no. 35 (spring 1997), and "The Rabbi and the Sorcerer." Alfred Hitchcock's Mystery Magazine (October 1998). M. Shayne Bell has several stories set in Africa, like "Dry Niger." Bright Angels and Familiars, 1992. "The Sound of the River" Asimov Dec '92. "The King's Kiss." Asimov's March 1993. "The Moon Girl," Asimov Jun '98. and "To See the World End." War of the Worlds: Global Dispatches. Bantam, '96. Again, it is out of the Short Story genre, but Timothy Liu has made a name for himself as a poet. His books are _Vox Angelica_, 1992. _Burnt Offerings_, 1995. _Say Goodnight_, 1998. Lots of poems about his homosexuality, apostacy, and allienation as a gay, Asian-American growing up in a Mormon home. Also in poetry, Isn't Alex Caldiero (_Various atmospheres : poems and drawings_, Signature, 1998) Italian? Andrew Hall ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: [AML] Glossary (was: Writing About Religion) Date: 05 Jul 2000 05:34:16 -0600 Deborah Wager wrote: > Ack! Michael! I'm speaking from my gut here, as a reader, so maybe I'm all wet, > but the only books I see that have glossaries are books with constructed (i.e., not > real) universes (science fiction and fantasy) and instructional books. If your > writing is strong enough the reader will work through the unfamiliar jargon. Couldn't I do both? Write strong enough so the reader doesn't have to access the glossary with every unfamiliar term, but let those who are interested look up exact definitions? -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KGrant100@aol.com Subject: [AML] Call for Anecdotes (_Ensign_ Article on Singles) Date: 05 Jul 2000 10:19:04 EDT Dear friends, Just want to say thanks to all who responded to my last post with thoughts about being single in a family ward. A friend on the AML list read my manuscript last night, and he made a valuable suggestion: I need more anecdotes. The current draft shares quotes offering abstract reflections and advice, but very few anecdotes--and right now the article seems to lack life and warmth. If any of you can share personal anecdotes that deal with 1) being single in a family ward 2) as a married member, getting to know/understand singles in your ward better that would be very helpful for the article. I'm supposed to e-mail the article to the Ensign editor this Friday, so I would love to get any feeback in the next day or so. Please e-mail me directly at kgrant100@aol.com. Thanks again! Kathy - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] Two Utah County Dinners Date: 05 Jul 2000 09:41:33 -0700 I am willing to coordinate two Utah County dinners this summer, tied to events that might bring some of our out-of-state friends to town: Thursday, July 21, during the children's writers conference Thursday, August 10, during the CES conference If you are interested in either or both dinners, let me know and I will coordinate arrangements. Even if it's all local Utah County people, that would be great. Seems like someone up in Salt Lake should piggy-back a dinner on the Sunstone symposium and/or the LDS Bookseller Convention. I know I would probably drive up for one or both if my schedule was free. Chris Bigelow * * * * * * Interested in novels, stories, poems, plays, and films by, for, or about Mormons? Check out IRREANTUM magazine at www.xmission.com/~aml/irreantum.htm. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terry L Jeffress" Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About Religion Date: 05 Jul 2000 09:56:45 -0600 Barbara wrote: > Yeah. I still don't know what "sitting on the gospel side" means in the > Episcopelian Church. The miracle of the internet. http://www.holycross.net/anonline.htm#gospel_side Gospel Side An older usage for designating the interior of a church. The gospel side is on the right-hand side of the priest, as determined by where he/she is facing when celebrating the Holy Communion. The Gospel side is thus dependant on whether the altar is located against the wall or free-standing. Originally, the priest celebrated communion facing the people and thus the Gospel Side was the north side of the Church building [the left side, when facing the altar]. In medieval times the altar was pushed against the west wall, and the Gospel side then became the right side, when facing the altar. Epistle Side The side of the building from which the Epistle lesson is read. The side depends on whether the altar is located against a wall or free standing, meaning the priest celebrates the Eucharist from behind it. If the altar is against the wall, the Epistle side is the left side of the church building when one is facing the altar. See also http://www.homileticsonline.com/Installments/aug0292.htm http://www.cpats.org/CPATSAnswerDirectory/Answers_to_Questions/Gospel_Side.h tml [Terry Jeffress] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AEParshall@aol.com Subject: [AML] Glossary (was: Writing About Religion) Date: 05 Jul 2000 11:57:55 EDT << I still don't know what "sitting on the gospel side" means in the Episcopelian Church. >> In the Episcopelian tradition, the "gospel side" is the side of the sanctuary that is to the right hand of the priest as he celebrates the Eucharist. Exactly which side of the building this is depends upon whether the altar is fixed against the wall (the priest will face the Eucharist and have his back to the congregation) or is a free-standing table (the priest will stand behind the altar facing both the Eucharist and the congregation). The "epistle side" is by definition whichever side isn't the gospel side; it gets its name from the lectern from where the scriptural (epistle) lesson is read. It's hard to imagine a situation where understanding this distinction would add to understanding a text. (I suppose if the stage has been set correctly, knowing whether the murderer is creeping up from the left or right might enter into it?) Generally I can be satisfied by recognizing the Episcopalian texture without quite grasping the denotation. So I guess we're back to the question of whether LDS terms enhance by adding authentic flavor, or detract by distracting through unfamiliarity. I believe that all depends on the skillfulness of the author, and like some others on the list I think Chaim Potok is THE model. I'm rereading _Asher Lev_ this morning, and it seems that every other line has a Hebrew word or phrase. He doesn't explain overtly, but when it matters he makes sure the meaning is clear. He'll write something like "He addressed the Master of the Universe ..." and then have the character's speech begin with the words of that title; it doesn't take long to easily recognize that phrase when it is repeated. Or he'll have a character "stare at my sidecurls" and have another character tell the first to "stop staring at his payos", and even if you don't understand why they wear their hair that way, it has already been made clear through other subtle references what those sidecurls look like and that they are a distinctive sign of membership in a very conservative sect. A Jewish reader no doubt picks up additional layers of meaning, but this Mormon reader has no trouble following and enjoying. It should be just as possible to write with an authentic Mormon flavor while almost invisibly smoothing out any difficulties without a glossary, without interrupting the natural flow for an awkward explanation, and without preaching. Ardis Parshall AEParshall@aol.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jason Steed" Subject: [AML] Glossary (was: Writing About Religion) Date: 05 Jul 2000 09:16:19 PDT >Jason disagrees about jargon causing some problems, and I disagree with >him. >iness suit. > > > When I read Malamud or Singer or Roth, I enjoy > > the uses of "rabbi" or "kaddish" or "seder", because it lends to the > > "Jewishness" of the story--makes it seem true and real, rounds out > > characters, atmospherizes things (a new verb, I think). > >I'm looking at the three page, two-column yiddish glossary in Henry Roth's >MERCY OF A RUDE STREAM. This is necessary, and though Mormons don't speak >Yiddish, we do have our own peculiarities (i.e. bishop means something >completely different to a Catholic). As you may have seen from another post, I'm not opposed to the glossary idea. But I do think a _foreign_ language is different from _Mormon_ language. If there are too many phrases or terms in, say, French, Russian, or (as you mentioned) Yiddish, then certainly a glossary might be even more appropriate. On the other hand, Cormac McCarthy didn't provide a Spanish glossary (that I recall), and I still found his border trilogy exquisitely written and thoroughly engaging (i.e. not alienating or distracting). > > > As a reader, not knowing a term doesn't distract me, it intrigues > > me--especially if it's pertaining to a culture I'm less familiar with. > >Yeet, goy, shiksa, folentzer, malamut. Do these need explanation? > >Hebrew, gentile, gentile girl, akward person, Hebrew teacher. My focus right now, for my PhD dissertation, is American Jewish literature. I only recently started looking up words like these, for a _more thorough_ understanding of meanings, significances, etc. Before this, however, I always felt I had some sense (often a very accurate idea) of what words like these meant, largely from the context in which they usually appear. I didn't use glossaries (even when they were provided) until I began my "close readings" of certain texts, with the intent to explicate or analyze them. > >Also, when Brian Evenson was combing through my collection, he forbad the >use of what he called "word packets," terms and phrases that are cultural >or >emotional shorthand, which he said undermined my work. It took a lot of >doing to keep the character of the religious moments without falling back >on >things like "still small voice," "greenie," "RM," "deacon," "priest," >"elder," "PEC," "PPI," "AP," "Molly," "Franklin," "pride cycle," "ward," >etc., etc., etc. But these are all such great words! I could make the same appeal to author-ities for my position. While I was doing my MFA at U of Idaho, Mary Clearman Blew and Lance Olsen (each arguably 'more successful' in the writing world than Brian, though neither is Mormon) both often felt that words like these were great, precisely _because_ they could pack so much culture into the story--as I said, authenticating and 'atmospherizing' it. > >Even when we're writing to and for ourselves, we owe it to our readers and >to the development of our culture to try and see things in new ways, which >is going to mean not realying on the jargon and terminology to carry the >cultural touches. That's what Stephen King does: put in a Coke can, and >bingo--it's verisimilitude. It's of course, nothing of the sort. Just >lazy >writing. I agree whole-heartedly with the notion of seeing things in new ways and avoiding lazy writing. And I don't mean to suggest that we should "rely" on jargon to "carry" culture--it _would_ be lazy (and bad) writing if we thought we could convey Mormon culture simply through words like those you list above. But I'm assuming there's a context surrounding these words that, though basically 'human' and comprehensible to the non-Mormon reader, is still thoroughly 'Mormon' in its world view; and most of all, I'm assuming the goal is to just write a darn good story. And if you have a "darn good Mormon story," I don't see why Mormon terminology should not or cannot be a (significant?) part of it. With or without a glossary. Jason ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN Arts & Entertainment News Summary Date: 05 Jul 2000 15:46:29 EDT [From Mormon-News] Arts & Entertainment News Summary 2Jul00 Compiled by Kent Larsen News Stories: Mormon author makes 'Leap' through artwork Animator Bluth's Status Uncertain as Fox Closes Animation Studio First Edition Book of Mormon sells for $44,000, below expectations Book covers intimacy with LDS perspective LDS Author's Book Tells Truth About Cowboy Clothing Mormon author makes 'Leap' through artwork PHOENIX, ARIZONA -- The Arizona Republic's Yost reviews Terry Tempest Williams' book "Leap," pointing out that the loss of Williams' mother and grandmother to cancer "led her to a new spiritual journey, which became the basis for" the book. The review tells of Williams' trip to Madrid with her father to see the Hieronymus Bosch painting, "The Garden of Earthly Delights," only to discover that the painting was being restored. While her father returned home, Williams tracked down the sisters restoring the painting, talked them into letting her watch them work, and even accepted their invitation to clean a small portion of the painting, giving her a feeling of connection with the work's creator, Bosch. The review also talks about Williams' connection with the LDS Church. She declares that she still remains an LDS Church member, but not an orthodox one, "I have not been excommunicated. I'm not trying to change the church. I have no axe to grind. My upbringing is Mormon, and that is the lens I see the world through..." But she acknowledges that the Church-owned Deseret News hasn't reviewed "Leap," which Williams says is about "faith, what happens when our institutions no longer feed us." Mormon author makes 'Leap' through artwork (Phoenix) AZ Republic 30Jun00 A2 http://www.azcentral.com/rep/books/articles/0702williams.html By Barbara Yost: The Arizona Republic See also: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679432922/mormonnews More about "Leap: A Traveler in the Garden of Delights " at Amazon.com Animator Bluth's Status Uncertain as Fox Closes Animation Studio PHOENIX, ARIZONA -- The final status of LDS animator Don Bluth is uncertain in the wake of 20th Century Fox's decision to shut down its Phoenix animation studio. The move comes just days after Fox's movie boss Bill Mechanic left the studio (or was forced out as some claim). It also comes after Bluth's most recent film, "Titan A.E.," performed poorly in its box-office debut. Bluth and colleague Gary Goldman opened Fox's studio six years ago, planing to produce a film every 18 months to compete with animation titan Disney. But during that time, the studio has produced just three movies, "Anastasia." its direct-to-video prequel "Bartok the Magnificent," and "Titan A.E." It is also starting production this week on "Ice Age," which will not be affected by the decision to shutter the studio. Fox Shuts Down Animation HQ Excite News (E! Online) 27Jun00 A2 http://news.excite.com:80/news/eonline/000627/12/fox-shuts-down First Edition Book of Mormon sells for $44,000, below expectations FAIRMONT, WEST VIRGINIA -- A first edition of the Book of Mormon was sold at auction Thursday at an estate auction in West Virginia by a local auction house. The book brought $44,000, reportedly from a Rockville, Maryland man. The sale was for a lower amount than some recent sales, including a purchase for $58,000 last November at the National Historical Artifacts &Paper Money Show in Salt Lake City. In an interview with the Fairmont Times-West Virginian, BYU emeritus religion professor Dean Larsen said that he thought the price was low, saying that the cheapest a first edition Book of Mormon should ever sell for is $50,000. The Times-West Virginian reported that less than six bidders at the auction were interested in the book, and that bidding quickly settled to just two bidders. 'Book of Mormon' sells for $44,000 Fairmont WV Times West Virginian 30Jun00 B6 http://www.timeswv.com/archive/jun/0630001.html By Marc G. Auber: Times West Virginian Staff Writer Book covers intimacy with LDS perspective SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH -- "Between Husband and Wife - Gospel Perspectives on Marital Intimacy," a new book by BYU professor of Church history and doctrine Douglas E. Brinley and Salt Lake obstetrician-gynecologist Stephen E. Lamb, is proving very popular since it went on sale in March. The book already has sold 26,000 copies, 20,000 of them in the past two weeks, and publisher Covenant Communications is going back to press for another 20,000 copies. Both of the book's authors are former LDS bishops. They wrote the book specifically for an LDS audience because they saw a need for a reference book for couples that approached them for counseling. "This is not a sex manual," Brinley said. "We're simply saying here are some ideas to help married couples and couples planning marriage. We wrote about some medical situations that come up and how to be closer to each other. Marital intimacy is such a big part of life." Book covers intimacy with LDS perspective Deseret News 29Jun00 A4 http://www.deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,175015763,00.html By Marilyn Karras: Deseret News staff writer Married couples and engaged are given advice on relations See also: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1577346092/mormonnews More about "Between Husband and Wife: Gospel Perspectives on Marital Intimacy" at Amazon.com LDS Author's Book Tells Truth About Cowboy Clothing SOUTH PASS CITY, WYOMING -- LDS author Steve Mount and co-author Tom Lindmier's book "I See By Your Outfit," takes on the stereotype of cowboy clothing and come away with a very different picture of cowboys. Floppy hats instead of ten-gallon hats, hippie-length hair and goatees and wool trousers instead of Levi's. And if these differences aren't enough, cowboys even wore pink underwear. The two authors got the idea for the book when a group of costumed western enthusiasts walked out of a presentation they were making in a Los Angeles museum. The two have a great fondness for Western history, Mount as an enthusiast and Lindmier as a professor of history at the University of Wyoming. Mount is descended from Mormon pioneers that crossed the plains and ended up homesteading in Wyoming's Star Valley. BOOK REVIEW: Underneath, cowboys wore pink Modesto CA Bee (AP) 2Jul00 A4 http://www.nandotimes.com/24hour/modbee/entertainment/story/0,1661,500223366-500320089-501770422-0,00.html By Elisabeth A. Wright: Associated Press See also: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0931271339/mormonnews More about "I See by Your Outfit: Historic Cowboy Gear of the Northern Plains" at Amazon.com Book of Women Writers on American Frontier Includes Mormon SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH -- "A Sweet, Separate Intimacy: Woman Writers of the American Frontier, 1800-1922", just released by the University of Utah Press includes stories by 34 American women writers, including Mormon Ina Donna Coolbrith, widow of Don Carlos Smith, brother of Mormon Church founder Joseph Smith. The book puts Coolbrith in the company of writers like Willa Cather and Mary Hallock Foote. The book, edited by Susan Cummins Miller, isn't meant to be a 'best of' compilation or suggest that the women writers were ignored or discriminated against. Instead, its simply an anthology of work from Western women writers, including those known more for the fame of their husbands, such as Jessie Fremont, wife of explorer John Fremont, and Elizabeth Clift Bacon Custer, widow of General George Armstrong Custer. 'Sweet, Separate Intimacy' Lets Women Speak for Themselves Salt Lake Tribune 2Jul00 A6 http://www.sltrib.com:80/07022000/arts/63658.htm By Martin Naparsteck: Special to the Tribune See also: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0874806372/ mormonnews More about "A Sweet, Separate Intimacy: Woman Writers of the American Frontier, 1800-1922" at Amazon.com >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rachel Ann Nunes" Subject: Re: [AML] Andrew's Poll Date: 05 Jul 2000 13:50:01 -0600 [MOD: Let me simply clarify that this poll has nothing to do with the AML awards, which are, I believe, decided upon by a selected jury/judges. This poll is designed only to reflect the opinions of those willing to cast a vote on AML-List.] As a full-time writer and best-selling novelist in the Mormon market, I have watched this poll with some interest (and, I have to admit, some amusement). While I have read most everything that has been nominated or mentioned on this list, I get the distinct feeling that this is not true with many of the voters. How then can we compare novels and choose one to represent us if we have not read what is out there? When Valerie Holladay said: >It does seem that this poll hasn't generated the >response of earlier polls. Some time ago someone made >the remark that it seemed like people wanted to >publish in the LDS market, but they weren't reading >what was out there. I'm wondering if that's still the >case and if that's why the response seems so meagre. What we seem to have is a nomination of the only novel we've read in that genre, or no vote at all because we haven't read enough to know what's out there. (I apologize to those who are the exception to this statement.) How then can it be possible to determine the "best" novel? Hey, a few phone calls from an author to friends to get them to vote could mean that a mediocre novel is given credit, and thus the whole point of the poll is moot. Wouldn't it be better to find a list of novels and have EVERYBODY who wants to vote read them ALL (not just to see where they're going)? And then to perhaps discuss BOTH the bad and the good, and finally vote on the novel? This way we are getting a true picture of the novel or novels that represent our entire group. I don't know about you, but if I see a book with a sticker on it that proclaims, "Voted best Mormon novel in the 1990's by the Association for Mormon Letters" then I want to have the confidence of knowing it's indeed a great novel and one certainly worth reading. That can't happen if the novel has only two or three votes. Just a thought, Rachel ________________________________ Rachel Ann Nunes Author of the best-selling novel To Love and to Promise E-mail: rachel@ranunes.com Web page: http://www.ranunes.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Darvell" Subject: Re: [AML] Pioneer Stories Date: 05 Jul 2000 15:08:29 -0500 Andrew Hall wrote: > Today, however, while The Work and the Glory and The Storm > Testament have been big sellers, our better authors seem have > avoided writing prose fiction set in the past. I wonder if this has to do > with a more general literary trend of looking down on historical fiction, > regulating it to lesser, pot-boiler type authors. I'm a bit confused by this as well. I have written a historical novel set in Utah prior to the arrival of the pioneers. It is very historical and "very LDS." It would best be described as "what could have happened" in this little-known time period. But even with the break-thru novels of LDS historical fiction, I think publishers are hesitant to risk their money on such novels. I think my novel has a great, well-researched story, that could be compelling and interesting to LDS audiences, but I have failed to woo a publisher for it, even tho I have received some pretty good comments on it. I think this is an example where a great story cannot (or will not) sell because of a real or perceived lack of audience. And I really don't know if the lack of audience is real or just perceived. In the meantime, if I'm interested in publication, I'm forced to work on more contemporary stories. Darvell _____________________________________________ Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! http://www.MyOwnEmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "lynn gardner" Subject: RE: [AML] Two Utah County Dinners Date: 05 Jul 2000 13:32:04 -0700 I'll be in town for Booksellers and would LOVE to meet anyone anywhere for dinner and get acquainted time! Lynn Gardner - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About Religion Date: 05 Jul 2000 15:15:17 -0600 [MOD: Thanks to several List members for posting explanations of this terminology. As for this interpretation of Thom's, while it doesn't seem to correspond to how the terms are actually used (based on what others have posted), what a great metaphor...] Deborah Wager wrote: > Now I've read all the Father Tim books and I still don't know what it means to sit > on the gospel side, though I went so far as to call my brother-in-law who went to > an Anglican high school to ask him (but it turns out he only went there for school, > and worshiped as a Roman Catholic, so he didn't know). I will hazard a guess. Liberal Episopalians sit on the Gospel side, conservative Episcopalians sit on the Epistles side. I say this based on what most religious liberals end up being able to accept in Christianity, the generalities of Christ, while rejecting the specifics of the Epistles: "Women keep silent in the church." In our church, we would call one side the Liahona side and the other side the Iron Rod side. -- Thom Duncan Read the further adventures of Moroni Smith, the LDS Indiana Jones! The long-awaited second episode in the Moroni Smith LDS adventure series, _Moroni Smith: In Search of the Gold Plates_ is now available as an e-book at the Zion's Fiction web page: http://www.zfiction.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rachel Ann Nunes" Subject: [AML] What Can AML-List Do for Me? Date: 05 Jul 2000 13:53:41 -0600 I know this subject heading is presumptuous, but I think the many writers on this list might find my comments helpful to them as well. So here goes: I am very serious about my writing, and one of the reasons I have been a participant on the AML-List is because I want to hone my craft and maybe to even write that "Great Mormon Novel" we all keep dreaming about. But for the past few months (or more), I've been discouraged with the negative view of the popular Mormon literature that is being published today, coupled with the obvious lack of reading that same literature. Last week, I read _I Hated Heaven._ Now, while I was not impressed with the literary content, the ending, or the portrayal of the Savior, the novel did have some redeeming features and I'm glad I read it. I may have even learned a thing or two. I would recommend it. (But I wouldn't vote on it for the best Mormon novel of the 1990's.) Likewise, I think that most of the novels being published for the Mormon market must have at least one redeeming feature, and while it's important to know why something doesn't work (in the literary sense), it is equally important to know what does work. The same few writers/novels keep coming up on the list for recommendation. I guess what I would like to see is wider study of the popular novels and what is good about them. This is not to say that we should ignore the less popular literary novels, but let's face it, we writers need to pay the bills too and if we can write a great novel AND get paid more than just enough to cover our expenses, it'll be a good thing. More succinctly, we want to write a best-selling novel that is also pleasing to literary critics. (No surprise here, I know.) Is it so terrible to have a happy ending? (Here I have to stop and tell Chris Bigelow that his short story in Irreantum this month ended happily--resolved by a vision no less. Better work on that. ) And I echo the statement someone made earlier that it seems a novel must be negative to our religion (or sell less than two thousand copies) to be considered great on this list. What a terrible thing! I have to wonder why more *best-selling* Mormon authors (best-selling defined as at least five or six thousand copies in the first few months of release) aren't participating on the AML. Are they just too busy? Or are they leery of the constant criticism that doesn't seem to be pointing them in any direction? I honestly don't know, but if I hear the dismissive term "home literature" one more time, I think I'll have a heart-attack, or at the very least spend a week in the mental wing at the hospital. (Maybe not a bad thing since I might get my first complete night of sleep in eleven years.) So what ARE *popular* Mormon authors doing right? And of those things, which are also correct in the eyes of the literary critics? Can you give specific examples? I have some very strong ideas on what will be included in my "Great Mormon Novel" for which I'm gearing up to write. (My file of notes is growing.) But meanwhile, I'm doing at least some things right. I'm writing about issues I feel are vital, and I can barely keep up with my fan mail. That has to say something. Likewise, other Mormon authors are doing the same thing. While I may not agree with or enjoy everything they've written, some of it is DARN good. (And I'm talking here about Mormon authors published with Mormon publishers and read by Mormon readers.) Of course there's room for improvement. There always is. But at least some things are being done correctly. It may be that those who feel the way I do simply don't have time to post. Or they're afraid of being marked as an infidel. (I say this only half-joking, with a picture in my mind of a Mormon literature teacher reading Anita Stansfield's books at night in the bathroom with a flashlight.) My problem has been both of these. But now that my life is returning to normal after baby number five, I'm going to make an attempt to comment a little more on the Mormon novels I've been reading, both popular and literary. Putting in my pennies, I guess. Hope I didn't offend anyone, Rachel ________________________________ Rachel Ann Nunes Author of the best-selling novel To Love and to Promise E-mail: rachel@ranunes.com Web page: http://www.ranunes.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rachel Ann Nunes" Subject: Re: [AML] TARR, _The Gathering Storm_ (Review) Date: 05 Jul 2000 15:07:04 -0600 >Kenneth R. Tarr, “The Last Days - Volume 1 - The >Gathering Storm” >(c) 1999, Cedar Fort Incorporated >Paperback, 202 pages, $11.99 Now that this book has been reviewed by someone other than me, the author's daughter, I have a few comments to add, and certainly a different perspective. I appreciate the time Jeff took to make his review, but unlike other reviews he's done, I disagree with most of his negative statements. First off, I know for a fact that not only did the author read everything any general authority ever published about the Last Days, he also researched world economics extensively. He also has scriptural/prophetical/economical references for all of the types of disasters and such in the novel. He was very careful to plan what actually could happen, with a decidedly world view instead of just a slice of Utah. No one ever could think that the events of Last Days will happen except on a world level. I loved seeing what Mormons and believers around the world were doing and thinking in the time of turmoil. It came to me that as a Latter-day Saint, I believe things will have to become very very bad before many of the prophecies come true (parents drinking the blood of their own children and the like). _The Gathering Storm_ showed how these things *could* happen. Some of the events were admittedly hard to keep track of, but they all came clearly into play later. Tarr was obviously using the ploy of many national best-sellers by switching quickly to different POV's (in sections or chapters). In chapter four I was so intent on seeing if the dam tender made it to safety, that I couldn't put the book down. And other chapters were equally engrossing. The only real complaint I thought people would have with the book are the literary discussions peppered throughout. The book reads on several different levels and the average reader will miss the intellectual subtitles. It's a book that will make you think, and it's well worth the time to read. A drawback is the very small print they used for the book. The novel should have been at least a hundred pages longer to be comfortable for my eyes, though it's certainly no smaller than some national books I've read. One of the most important things shown in the novel was how the imperfect and sometimes selfish Latter-day Saints pulled together and started living up to their billing as children of God. Meanness, bitterness, and hatred, was overcome with love, sacrifice, and plain hard work. These futuristic Latter-day Saints were much like the pioneers of old. Incidentally, I read the sequel, which has not yet been published, and also liked it a great deal. It will be out sometime later this year. For what it's worth, Rachel ________________________________ Rachel Ann Nunes Author of the best-selling novel To Love and to Promise E-mail: rachel@ranunes.com Web page: http://www.ranunes.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kathleen Woodbury Subject: Re: [AML] Selling Your Writing Date: 05 Jul 2000 15:43:21 -0600 At 07:44 PM 7/3/00 EDT, Lisa Peck wrote: >I'd be interested if anyone else sees other ways Rowlings book fits the >market and other things she did with the book to make it the success that it >is. A friend of mine who has had several books published, including some YA fiction (Sherwood Smith) says that three of the things going for the Harry Potter books are that they are boarding school stories, the protagonist is a downtrodden child who turns out to be someone very special, and they include an interesting new sport. I suspect that the underdog who turns out to be someone special has appeal to almost everyone (it's archetypal, for one thing), and the other aspects have appeal to various people--Lisa may have found the Quidditch games boring, but many young male readers have not. They also fit the growth story format since they start, as Lisa said, with Harry's birth and follow his development into adulthood. (Rite of passage stories also have wide appeal.) Kathleen Dalton-Woodbury workshop@burgoyne.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terry L Jeffress" Subject: [AML] New Web Version of Review Archive Date: 05 Jul 2000 16:53:02 -0600 I have been creating a web version of the AML-List Review Archive, and Benson asked me to announce a preview of those pages. You can see the prototype at http://www.xmission.com/~jeffress/aml/index.html I would like to get some feedback on the layout, organization, and user friendly nature of the design. So far, I have converted the first 140-some reviews to the new format and continue to add about 10-20 reviews per day. Once I have converted all the reviews, we (Benson and I) will move the reviews to a permanent home on the AML web site. I will then continue to add any new reviews posted to the list. Jonathan may not want to have the feedback discussion here on the list, so you may send me comments to my personal address. [MOD: Please double-copy any comments to Terry and to the List (unless you want them just to go to Terry.) Whether I send them out over the List or not will depend in large part on List volume. Thanks to Terry, by the way, for doing this. I need to look at this myself and give him my feedback--but I'm on a work deadline and our third baby is due on Saturday, so I haven't had a chance yet.] -- Terry Jeffress - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Willson" Subject: [AML] AAR Agents in Utah? Date: 05 Jul 2000 16:42:42 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_009D_01BFE6A0.0A04B620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm just curious. Why do you suppose there are no literary agents = listed in the AAR located in the state of Utah. If there are agents in = Utah where are they listed? - And why wouldn't they list with AAR? Regards, Bill Willson Keep your hand moving and your muse alive. bwillson@mtwest.net=20 ------=_NextPart_000_009D_01BFE6A0.0A04B620 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm just curious.  Why do you suppose there are = no=20 literary agents listed in the AAR located in the state of Utah.  If = there=20 are agents in Utah where are they listed? - And why wouldn't they list = with=20 AAR?
 
Regards,
Bill Willson
Keep your hand moving = and your=20 muse alive.
bwillson@mtwest.net=20
------=_NextPart_000_009D_01BFE6A0.0A04B620-- - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Benson Parkinson Subject: Re: [AML] Reviewing New Mormon Fiction Date: 05 Jul 2000 19:21:11 -0700 (MST) Barbara R. Hume wrote: <<<< For several months now, I've been reviewing books for Under the Covers, the largest book review site on the Web that I know of. So far I've done only genre fiction--romances and mysteries. Many kinds of books are reviewed there, however. Today it occurred to me for the first time that maybe I should post reviews of LDS novels there. Right now I'm reading the third Trust Williams novel to review for Jana. Why not put a review up on UTC? >>>> This isn't what you were asking, but I thought I'd better mention to all list subscribers that you need to exercise care in cross-posting identical reviews. In some cases people have posted reviews intended for Irreantum to AML-List, which can cause difficulties for us with the publishers (who have often supplied a second copy for review on the list and might be reluctant to give us both copies in the future if they think they're getting coverage with one). Jana Remy (review editor for both Irreantum and AML-List) was just hammering out a policy on this with Jonathan Langford (list moderator) and Chris Bigelow and me (Irreantum co-managing editors) but left on a trip to England for several weeks before we got it nailed down. I think we all agree there are circumstances where a review could go both ways (as well as to third parties like Under the Covers), but until we can finalize our policies, please check with Jana on cross-posting AML-List or Irreantum reviews. Benson Parkinson Irreantum Co-managing Editor - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eileen Subject: Re: [AML] Community Theater Date: 05 Jul 2000 19:53:56 -0600 ----- Original Message ----- >Thank you, Neal, for standing up for community theatre! And ALL of you--if >you miss I AM JANE, you will be impoverished! >Sincerely, Marilyn Brown Pardon my ignorance, but how long and what days and times does I AM JANE run? Is that permissable to post or you may email me directly. [MOD: Please feel free to post to the List, as this is an artistic event of general interest.] Eileen eileens99@bigplanet.com "When the freedom they wished for most, was freedom from responsibility then Athens ceased to be free and was never free again." - Edith Hamilton - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: eedh Subject: [AML] _Irreantum_ Magazine Date: 05 Jul 2000 18:56:57 -0700 Awhile ago, my son called, "Mom, your AML magazine is here!" And now I sit here on my bed, proud and grateful, and slightly discouraged. This Irreantum, what an accomplishment! Thank you Chris and Benson, and everyone else, for all your hard work. It certainly shows. This magazine is impressive! I'm used to chatting with all of you (AML-list feels like chatting to me) in my kitchen, often early in the morning or late at night, about our hopes and fears and flaws--but to see your actual work (the reviews and poetry and essays and fiction), I'm reminded what an illustrious crowd I've been associating with. I think this must be what Paris in the 1920's felt like. Just imagine, I think, these are the Mormon literary movers and shakers, and I'm actually in the midst of them! My son came into the bedroom. "So how was your magazine?" he asked. "It was really good," I said, "but kind of depressing." "Why's that?" he asked. "Well," I said, "these people are like the Philharmonic symphony orchestra, and I'm at the 8th-grade band level." He laughed sympathetically. I'm so grateful for AML-List, and the Irreantum, and the AML writing conferences, and the lunches and dinners (which I have yet to be able to attend!) and for being able to associate with all of you. And again, to everyone involved in the Irreantum: "BRAVO! WELL DONE!!" -Beth Hatch - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: Re: [AML] Community Theater Date: 05 Jul 2000 20:24:18 -0700 Marilyn Brown: > In drama, I think Eric Snider is good in some ways, but he does not >have enough of a literary or theatrical background to do the kind of >criticism I would like to see. Just the other day, I was discussing with a friend the difficulties in writing reviews of community theater. On the one hand, we have readers who don't go to the theater all that often, who like a show that will entertain them, and that's it. Then we have what my friend called the "theater snobs," the people who look for things like symbolism and depth and that sort of thing. Somehow, I have to write reviews for both groups of readers -- reviews that will address the basic factor of whether or not a show is entertaining, as well as whether or not it has merit from a theatrical standpoint, etc. I wish I had more time, and I wish there were more of a place, for more in-depth reviews that would get more into literary and theatrical themes like Marilyn talks about. But there's not really a place for that in newspaper, especially when most readers just want to know, "Will I like it?," and don't care so much about symbolism, etc. (I say this in my own defense, that just because I haven't had a chance to exhibit my literary or theatrical background in this area doesn't necessarily mean I don't have it. :-) ) >Also, he is a potboiler gutsy enough to write the kind of negative >stuff that sells newspapers. And that's important. But it does kill >audiences. This buys into the old myth that people write a certain way to "sell newspapers." Newspapers make money through advertising, not through newspaper sales. Granted, a higher circulation means the ad department can charge more for advertisements, but the fact remains that it's such a long trickling-down for a certain kind of writing to make money for the newspaper in the long run, that a vast majority of newspaper writers don't even think of it. I have no illusions that my writing will make any start subscribing to the paper. Maybe one or two over time, but not many. What we writers hope for, more realistically, is that if our writing is good, people who ALREADY read the paper will start reading our articles, too, when they hadn't previously done so. Also, the idea that negative reviews sell newspapers is completely backwards. Have you read my mail? People hate negative reviews. They seem to think it runs counter to the entire purpose of reviewing to say anything other than positive things. We've LOST subscribers because of negative reviews (and other kinds of negative writing -- not enough "good news" in the paper, etc.). No, the only reason I say anything negative in a review is that I'm trying to give an honest, fair overall assessment of the show. And I am sensitive to the peculiarities of non-professional theater. I rarely mention specific actors as being sub-par; when I do, it's only because they are major characters and their weakness hurts the show as a whole. Minor characters can be bad without doing too much damage. I never criticize children, no matter how bad they are. In almost any show, of course, you can find a whole list of things wrong with it. In a review, I try to determine whether the good outweighs the bad. Usually, it does, which is why 75 percent of my reviews are B-grade or better, with the good being emphasized more than the bad. Some of the bad still has to be mentioned, to give an accurate picture of the play as a whole; to omit it would be a disservice, as it would cause people to think the show was perfect. >We figure we lost our $2,000 on our wonderful FIDDLER largely >because of the review. And not just the review, but the weekly >repeated blurb in the newspaper that kept giving at C grade. But think how much you loved that weekly repeated blurb when it was an A- for "To Kill a Mockingbird." :-) I have yet to be convinced that people in Utah Valley decline seeing a show based solely on my reviews. It would be interesting if I had that kind of power, and I do recognize that there is some power in the press, but I just don't think it works that way. My experience has been that most people who want to see a show will see it anyway. There may be a few undecideds for whom my review pushes them over the edge, but I doubt there are $2,000 worth of people like that. If anything, I think the opposite works: A strongly glowing review might make people consider seeing a show that they had previously not considered. I think in terms of audience turn-out, a positive review has more effect than a negative one. I cannot prove this, of course, but it seems to be the case from what I hear from people. If anything turned people off to "Fiddler," I'd guess it was the 2:45 running time. People know their kids won't sit still for that long, and lots of grown-ups won't, either. >Eric talked about the lights, which he didn't like because they were >dark. (I am confused with that one, because if it's too >light-hearted, wouldn't the lights have been too bright?) From the review: "For as light as this show is figuratively, it's far too dark literally." >At any rate, the lights were dark because of the director's choice, >and after we read the review we did beef them up, which is one good >thing about critics. They can help us make adjustments. However, we >still had the C grade on the Friday schedule throughout the entire >run. Our actors may have made adjustments also but we still had the >C and still lost the $2,000. The thing about the lights is a valid point. I shouldn't have included the words "dimly lit" in the miniature review that ran throughout the show's run. I do need to be careful about not putting in stone things that may have been a problem for just one night, or that may well have been fixed later. Those little reviews that we run every week have been mostly appreciated by our readers, who may have missed the reviews when they first appeared and are looking for a show to see. I recognize the fact that many shows improve over time and would therefore be deserving of a higher grade later on, and I don't know what to do about that. In an ideal world, all shows would be completely polished and ready to go by opening night -- and the New York Times runs capsule reviews of Broadway shows every week, assuming the quality of the show will remain consistent -- but we don't live in an ideal world, at least not currently. So I really don't know what to do about that conflict. Readers want some guidance beyond the first time a review appears, but it's not feasible to send someone to the show mid-way through the run to do a "check up." And, again, this is only a problem when the review is lukewarm. When it says the show is great, no one worries that it might get less-great as time goes on. > >I think Eric is smart. The newspaper world loves him. He has >recieved an important award, and he has been promoted to City >Editor, which merits congratulations. Thank you, but it was Features Editor. City Editor is for people interested in actual NEWS, not the kind of stuff I do. :-) > And I am so grateful he doesn't attend our children's programs. And >may I say that the Villa Theatre has just this last weekend hosted >Margaret Young's I AM JANE. We have talked to people who have come >away wanting to bring all of their friends this next weekend. They >absolutely love this show, and when I looked at it, I could just >outline the negative things Eric could have said. Thank goodness he >did not attend to review, but will attend the last performance. >However, I must also say that his tack is a bit political, as I >could hear dear Margaret pleading with him in her blurb on this >list. And she did communicate with him in private about it. Margaret >is so talented. But this was not a PROFESSIONAL production. She was >doing something entirely different from trying to make Eric sit up >and take notice of the perfection of a piece of art. Due to scheduling conflicts, I couldn't review the show, though I wanted to. (Blame the Utah Shakespearean Festival.) It wasn't because of Margaret's comments here, though I admit, that would have made reviewing it a bit more awkward. I won't be able to see it closing night, either, as another conflict has arisen. There are about 12,000 plays all opening in July, and apparently all on the same couple weekends. > >Let me say just one more word. Eric may be a good critic, but I have >noticed that the up and coming students and journalists think that >he is the perfect example. So they get in there and throw those >negative things around, also, practicing their power and killing >people. I have seen this, too, and it bothers me. Part of it stems from the ongoing myth that all my reviews are negative (don't make me fish out the percentages, but trust me, very few are). The students think I'm negative all the time, and they think I'm a good critic; therefore, they assume that they should be negative all the time, too, if they want to be good like me. This makes two false assumptions: One, that I'm THE critic to follow, and two, that I'm always negative. I've seen the same thing happen with my "Snide Remarks" column. When I wrote it for The Daily Universe, I frequently poked fun at BYU life and culture. I was occasionally rather pointed about it, but more often, it was just light-hearted, "Isn't this silly?" kind of stuff. One wouldn't get the sense that I was an angry young man, lying awake at night mumbling bitterly about all this stuff I HATED about BYU. Yet I would get e-mails from people who read the columns who would vent to me things they hated about BYU -- real, actual HATE, things that surprised me at how angry they were -- and they would say that they were writing to me because they knew I would feel the same way, or whatever. And I was amazed that I was being so grossly misunderstood (which, I guess, is one of the perils of writing satire). In closing, let me say something I've said before. People in the theater community have the same goals I have: to make theater better. I haven't always been as good about this, and I'm still getting better over time, but I really do try to phrase my negative comments so they sound more like constructive criticism than sarcastic slams or personal attacks. (Watch them closely: I might be glib sometimes in reviews, to keep the writing lively and the reader interested, but I avoid sarcasm when I get down to the delicate matter of criticizing.) I have received e-mails from people -- from one of Marilyn's "Fiddler" cast members, for example -- thanking me for what they perceived as insightful comments that really motivated them to do better. I've received plenty of angry mail, too, but it's always heartening to see that a performer and I are on the same wavelength, both trying to make things as good as we can, one of us from within the show and one of us from without. I hope Marilyn knows that I admire the work she and Bill have done in the theater world of Springville. They have heart and dedication, which counts for a lot in this business. Eric D. Snider -- *************************************************** Eric D. Snider www.ericdsnider.com "Filling all your Eric D. Snider needs since 1974." - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara@techvoice.com (Barbara R. Hume) Subject: Re: [AML] Defending the Romance Genre Date: 05 Jul 2000 20:27:05 -0700 >[MOD: I know of at least one other LDS historical romance writer: Elizabeth >Lane, whom I worked with at Wicat. I know she published several novels with >various publishers that went out of print, and is now in the middle of a >three-novel contract (I think) with Harlequin. I read only a few small >selections of one of her books--romance *isn't* my genre, I'm afraid--but >she was a very bright person, a good and imaginative writer of educational >software materials (I was her editor at times), and I rather imagine that >she's good at the type of writing she does.] Several of us found each other on romance writers' mailing lists. We started a list on eGroups called LDSRomanceWriters. There are fewer than a dozen at this point, but I imagine there are quite a few who haven't found us yet. I hope we can find Elizabeth Lane. I haven't read many Harlequin Historicals, but I understand some of them are quite good. barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Todd Robert Petersen" Subject: Re: [AML] Glossary (was: Writing About Religion) Date: 05 Jul 2000 22:09:57 -0500 Jason, I should have held my hand. You explained yourself well in intervening posts. The main problem of "jargonized" terminology (this word invention IS fun) is when Mormon writers wrap up spirituality in word packets, and this is something the culture does a lot (Example: "What a choice spirit . . ." and "I know this church is true . . . "). We have and use a cultural shorthand that keeps us from being able to communicate to others. It is so common to us that we don't know when we are lapsing into it, at it's worst these conventions keep us from truly understanding our own faith. We become overly-familiarized to it, the way Viktor Shklovsky uses the term. When that happens--in life or in fiction--he suggests, we are open for moral disintegration. Todd Robert Petersen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Katrina Duvalois" Subject: RE: [AML] Defending the Romance Genre Date: 06 Jul 2000 01:19:42 -0700 I'm sorry if I offended you, but we were talking about _best-selling authors_ and as I have not heard of any of the writers you requested I read, I don't believe that they fall under this category. They may fall under that genre as _best-selling_, but not on the N.Y. or L.A. times top 10 best fiction. I also read other fiction, i.e., Barbara Kingsolver is an excellent writer, but I didn't site her or her work. _Romance_, as I write it, is neither a bodice ripper or advocates casual sex. Since Romance appears to also have an offshoot as what you called _women's fiction_, then I suppose that is what I write. And the last Nora Roberts book I read did have a scene with a bodice being ripped, therefore the tongue-in-cheek reference. I enjoy historical romance immensely, but many of them aren't considered _best-selling_. I was introduced to Georgette Heyer in college and read every book I could get my hands on. I loved it! I have since found other authors, but am not currently reading historical romance as that is not what I write. That was not was I was talking about and I'm sorry, I seemed to have hit a nerve. I also did not mean to say that ALL ROMANCE WRITERS are bad/poor writers, what I said was that to be a _best-selling_ romance writer you don't have to write well; as you stated: _but a writer with something like 70 million books in print must know something we don't._ I made a stereotype and I think that is what was misunderstood. My statement _and there aren't too many good writers out there writing Romance._ should read _and there aren't too many good writers out there writing _best-selling_ mainstream romance._ That is exactly the reason I started reading Nora Roberts novels. That is also the reason I have read LaVyrl Spencer, I am trying to round out my reading/writing. Those are the examples I used to portray _best-selling_ writing that is not necessarily good. And, in that genre (whatever you want to call it) _romance_, _mainstream women's fiction_, the really good writers don't seem to get as much attention. I do, however, disagree with your general statement that: _Mainstream writers do not satisfy the requirement that romance readers want: the HEA (happily ever after) ending._ Nora Roberts, Danielle Steel, LaVyrl Spencer all have happily ever after endings (the ones I've read anyway) so this apparently does not apply to all the novels lumped into _mainstream romance/women's fiction._ I think this does apply to novels by Barbara Taylor Bradford, Colleen McCulloch, etc. which I think does fall under the genre of _women's fiction_. Finally, I thank you for giving me a list of new authors to read that you consider talented. I have been disappointed by the _best-selling_ mainstream authors I have read and would like to read some romance that is neither trite nor predictable. Since I have yet to be published, I am still searching for the style and genre within genre that I am comfortable with. Generally, I call it Romance, but where exactly within that genre I am as yet unsure. Katrina Duvalois - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "lynn gardner" Subject: RE: [AML] New Mormon Fiction Date: 06 Jul 2000 05:12:58 -0700 Subject: RE: [AML] New Mormon Fiction > > >Add me to the list who attended BYU - a hundred years ago. Lynn Gardner > > Please tell us -- What was Brigham Young _really like?_ ;)> Darvell Do you mean the man (my great-great-great-grandfather - by first wife, first child) or the school which was not half the size it is now?? Lynn Gardner - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Andrew's Poll Date: 06 Jul 2000 10:18:37 -0600 Rachel Ann Nunes wrote: > > [MOD: Let me simply clarify that this poll has nothing to do with the AML > awards, which are, I believe, decided upon by a selected jury/judges. This > poll is designed only to reflect the opinions of those willing to cast a > vote on AML-List.] > > As a full-time writer and best-selling novelist in the Mormon market, I have > watched this poll with some interest (and, I have to admit, some amusement). > While I have read most everything that has been nominated or mentioned on > this list, I get the distinct feeling that this is not true with many of the > voters. How then can we compare novels and choose one to represent us if we > have not read what is out there? Not only that but how can we hope to ever compare such diverse works as mentioned on the list. For instance, _Backslider_ and _Arriana_ address two entirely different audiences. Those who've read Levi's work are probably not the audience for Rachel's books, and vice versa. They not only address a different audience but require a different set of critical tools. Using the critical tools necessary to understand Levi Peterson virutally guarantees that Rachel Nunes will be seen as a hack of the highest order. Using the tools required for Rachel's books makes Levi Peterson inaccessessible, boring, and "literary." I would prefer seeing something like: Best LDS Romance Novel of the 90's, or Best Literary Novel. Then you can compare more easily Nunes to Stansfield, or Peterson to Sillito. Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "lynn gardner" Subject: RE: [AML] Andrew's Poll Date: 06 Jul 2000 09:51:52 -0700 Rachel Ann Nunes wrote: How then can we compare novels and choose one to represent us if we have not read what is out there? What we seem to have is a nomination of the only novel we've read in that genre, or no vote at all because we haven't read enough to know what's out there. How then can it be possible to determine the "best" novel? ...Wouldn't it be better to find a list of novels and have EVERYBODY who wants to vote read them ALL and discuss BOTH the bad and the good, and finally vote on the novel?..... if I see a book with a sticker on it that proclaims, "Voted best Mormon novel in the 1990's by the Association for Mormon Letters" then I want to have the confidence of knowing it's indeed a great novel and one certainly worth reading. That can't happen if the novel has only two or three votes. I agree with Rachel. I can't vote because I haven't had time to read the novels listed. I have a stack right now waiting: Marilyn Brown's Royal House, Marilyn Arnold's Sweet is the Word and something else of hers, Rachel's Love on The Run series, Card's Saints, Anne Perry's Tathea and at least two dozen others. I've printed a list you've suggested through the months, including the nomination list. We don't get these in our local library in California, so I'll have to buy them. But since I can't even find time to read the ones I already have, much less get to our little local Beehive bookstore to buy more, I have to disqualify myself from voting. I'd love to see the vote extended for six months, giving people time to read those listed. Then it would be wonderful to discuss the books. Personally, I love to know what I need to improve on (besides generally everything!) Unfortunately, I'm leaving again for Texas, Utah and Idaho for two weeks and when I get back I'll have 3000 AML messages waiting to be read, which I can't bear to delete without perusing. there has to be a way..... Lynn desperate-for-reading-time Gardner - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: eedh Subject: Re: [AML] Andrew's Poll Date: 06 Jul 2000 10:29:34 -0700 I didn't respond to this poll, not because I hadn't read many of the books, but because I actually have read a good bit of them and I simply could not figure out how to narrow my favorites down to only one. I mean, if someone had asked me what my very favorite food is, I'd have the same problem. Is it raspberries fresh off the vine? Hot mushroom pizza with a soft, chewy crust? See's chocolate mint truffles? Ben & Jerry's chocolate brownie fudge frozen yogurt? Shrimp? Now ask me to give you a list of my favorite foods and I will write a list with loving descriptions of each. It's the same with my favorite books. But I cannot figure out how to narrow them down to one. -Beth Hatch - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Johnson Subject: Re: [AML] Andrew's Poll Date: 06 Jul 2000 13:42:40 -0400 >What we seem to have is a nomination of the only novel we've read in that >genre, or no vote at all because we haven't read enough to know what's out >there. (I apologize to those who are the exception to this statement.) How >then can it be possible to determine the "best" novel? I don't know who got what out of this poll, but I printed out three pages of names of novels, most of which were unknown to me. Now I can go on the web and find a few of them. To those of us who live in area out of "Mormon culture" that is a real event. I have read Ben's first MTC novel, three volumes of the _Children of the Promise_, a couple of the _Glory_ novels and a couple of _Tennis Shoe_ novels which I actually bought for my kids. I seem also to remember something about "Grandpa and the racehorse" or something like that. Most of the books "nominated" never show up at the small bookstores near the temple. I am grateful for the whole idea, and for the booklist that I received. (Actually, I have also read those books which I reviewed for the list: four of them I believe, and Orson Scott card is available anywhere. ) This is valuable information even if a "winner" is never chosen. Richard B. Johnson Husband, Father, Grandfather, Puppeteer, Playwright, Writer, Director, Actor, Thingmaker, Mormon, Person, Fool I sometimes think that the last persona is the most important http://www2.gasou.edu/commarts/puppet/ Georgia Southern University Puppet Theatre - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Willson" Subject: [AML] Audience for Mormon Literature? Date: 06 Jul 2000 12:19:35 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BFE744.72DDE3C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All=20 I hate to be the one who throws a monkey wrench into this smoothly = running machinery, but is the following ideal what we are truly striving = for when we say, "Mormon literature?"=20 >"Great Mormon Novel"=20 >I'm talking here about Mormon authors published with Mormon >publishers and read by Mormon readers=20 Somehow I had a bit more idealistic concept of Mormon Literature. The = Book of Mormon, specifically, and of course the D&C and The Pearl of = Great Price.=20 As far as what rank and file Mormon authors write, from the LDS POV, I = think it should be written with the same intent as the books I have = cited above. That is they should be written by Mormons for the whole = world, with the intent and purpose of drawing readers into a state of = mind, where they have a desire to visit the place we are coming from = intellectually and spiritually.=20 Maybe my views are a bit too idealistic, but that is the aim and goal I = have set for myself. I think it is very selfish of us to presume we are = only to write for the enlightened few, and keep our light hidden under a = bushel basket. Regards, Bill Willson Keep your hand moving and your muse alive. bwillson@mtwest.net=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BFE744.72DDE3C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi All

I hate to be the one who throws a monkey wrench into = this=20 smoothly running machinery, but is the following ideal what we are truly = striving for when we say, "Mormon literature?"

>"Great Mormon Novel"

>I'm talking here about Mormon authors published = with=20 Mormon
>publishers and read by Mormon readers

Somehow I had a bit more idealistic concept of Mormon=20 Literature. The Book of Mormon, specifically, and of course the D&C = and The=20 Pearl of Great Price.

As far as what rank and file Mormon authors write, = from the LDS=20 POV, I think it should be written with the same intent as the books I = have cited=20 above. That is they should be written by Mormons for the whole world, = with the=20 intent and purpose of drawing readers into a state of mind, where they = have a=20 desire to visit the place we are coming from intellectually and = spiritually.=20

Maybe my views are a bit too idealistic, but that is = the aim and=20 goal I have set for myself. I think it is very selfish of us to presume = we are=20 only to write for the enlightened few, and keep our light hidden under a = bushel=20 basket.

Regards,
Bill Willson
Keep your hand moving and = your muse=20 alive.
bwillson@mtwest.net =

------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BFE744.72DDE3C0-- - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] What Can AML-List Do for Me? Date: 06 Jul 2000 12:24:41 -0600 Rachel Ann Nunes wrote: > > I am very serious about my writing, and one of the reasons I have been a > participant on the AML-List is because I want to hone my craft and maybe to > even write that "Great Mormon Novel" we all keep dreaming about. Rachel, neither you, I, nor anyone else currently reading this list will write the Great Mormon Novel (GMN). That is, we may write it but we will never know about it in this life. What makes the Great Mormon Novel will be the passage of time. Several generations yet unborn will have to read this work and enjoy it for such a thing to come to pass. Not only that, but several different ages of people in that same generation will have to read it and like it, adult and young people. History and history alone decides the Greatness of any work of art. That being said, here are some other obstacels standing in the way between us LDS writers and the GMN. To be the Great Mormon Novel, the book will also have to speak across genres. Orson Scott Card will never write the great Mormon novel as long as he continues to write science fiction and fantasy. My sub-genre of LDS speculative fiction will never produce the Great Mormon Novelist. Neither will any other sub-genre within Mormon fiction, romance, adventure, historical fiction, etc. > More succinctly, we want to write > a best-selling novel that is also pleasing to literary critics. (No surprise > here, I know.) Chasing the illusive literay critic has never made sense to me. I would much rather be a successful author with a loyal fan base who enjoyed consistent sales and have literary critic hate my guts. The person who reads your work and enjoys it -- that is the most important thing. Being hailed by critics, though perhaps pleasing to the Natural Man in us all, is so fleeting an enjoyment. I see working hard to be the kind of writer who can sell DESPITE what the critics may say as a larger accomplishment. Stephen King, for instance, could type up the phone book and it would sell, regardless of what any critic might ever say. > Is it so terrible to have a happy ending? No ending is terrible if it grows naturally out of what happens previously. Tacked on happy endings, or endings that require that we set aside a substantial chunk of disbelief, *are* terrible. -- Thom Duncan Read the further adventures of Moroni Smith, the LDS Indiana Jones! The long-awaited second episode in the Moroni Smith LDS adventure series, _Moroni Smith: In Search of the Gold Plates_ is now available as an e-book at the Zion's Fiction web page: http://www.zfiction.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rachel Ann Nunes" Subject: Re: [AML] Pioneer Stories Date: 06 Jul 2000 13:08:21 -0600 >Andrew Hall wrote: > Today, however, while The Work and the Glory and The Storm > Testament have been big sellers, our better authors seem have > avoided writing prose fiction set in the past. I wonder if this has to do > with a more general literary trend of looking down on historical fiction, > regulating it to lesser, pot-boiler type authors. Does anybody see this statement as I do? Hmmm. Maybe Andrew and Darvell could show Lund what parts he *is* doing right. Nurture him, so to speak, and those like him. These successful writers are doing incredible things for Mormon literature, we've all agreed on that at least. If Gerald Lund wrote a "literary" novel now, it would likely also be a best-seller, wouldn't it? Rachel ________________________________ Rachel Ann Nunes Author of the best-selling Ariana series E-mail: rachel@ranunes.com Web page: http://www.ranunes.com Rachel - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara@techvoice.com (Barbara R. Hume) Subject: RE: [AML] Defending the Romance Genre Date: 06 Jul 2000 14:10:41 -0700 >I also did not mean to say that ALL ROMANCE WRITERS are bad/poor writers, >what I said was that to be a _best-selling_ romance writer you don't have to >write well; I can certainly agree with that. It's true across all genres, I think--many best-sellers seem to me to be poorly written. But they give a lot of people whatever it is they're looking for. Several of the writers I listed for you have been on the NY Times best-seller list, although these lists are so manipulated that I don't think they indicate the value of the books. Most books listed as "best-sellers" are books I wouldn't read in a million years. I don't care for Nora Roberts' romance novels, but I do admit that she wrote a lovely and gracious introduction to the recent re-issue of Heyer's FREDERICA. If you like mysteries, you might try reading one of books she writes under the name J. D. Robb. I didn't mean to sound offended. I just thought you were presenting some inaccurate information. Sturgeon's Law applies to all genres, IMHO, including mainstream and LDS literature. barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ViKimball@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Andrew's Poll Date: 06 Jul 2000 18:10:10 EDT In a message dated 7/6/00 12:42:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time, tduncan@zfiction.com writes: << I would prefer seeing something like: Best LDS Romance Novel of the 90's, or Best Literary Novel. Then you can compare more easily Nunes to Stansfield, or Peterson to Sillito. Thom >> I think Thom's idea is more democratic. Violet Kimball - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Darlene Young (by way of Jonathan Langford ) Subject: [AML] PERRY, _Tathea_ Date: 07 Jul 2000 10:10:05 -0500 I read with interest Melissa Proffit's and Eric Eliason's reviews of Anne Perry's Tathea in the recent issue of Irreantum. I was relieved to read of Proffitt's disappointment. I too feel that Tathea did not succeed, and it's nice to know I'm not alone. Proffitt feels that Tathea fails because it fails as fantasy. In his response, Eliason does not completely refute her assertion. So what if it doesn't conform to specific rules of fantasy? Neither do "Frankenstein," "1984," "Brave New World" and "Utopia." But, Eliason goes on, it may not actually belong to the fantasy genre. "It fits much better in the philosophical/moral-treatise-in-story-form genre of books which occasionally have fantasy elements but are not fantasy per se." He cites Bach's "Jonathon Livingston Seagull" and Mandino's "Richest Man in Babylon" as examples of this genre. I agree with Eliason here. Like these books, Tathea IS a treatise thinly disguised as literature. And as such, it is moderately successful. Let me admit here that I am NOT in the intended audience for such books. While I was reading Tathea, it was at just those times when characters began musing philosophically that I found myself screaming "Enough already!" in the same way I did when John Galt went ON and ON beating the dead horse at the end of "Atlas Shrugged." As to whether or not Tathea succeeds in this other genre is not something I am qualified to decide; I suppose I could leave that to Eliason. But one of his points on this subject is bothersome: he says, "Within the conventions of this genre, Tathea not only succeeds but also excels," apparently because "the oblique stabs at truth found in [Bach, Rand, and Mandino] . . . pale in comparison to Perry's profound exploration of the fundamental metaphysical conditions of human existence and agency." Eliason seems to be saying that Perry's novel is better than the others in its true genre because it uses as its basis the revealed truth of the gospel instead of some other, less true philosophy. I don't feel this is a fair way to judge a book. Even in this genre, a critic should judge the quality of a WORK, not the quality of the worldview the author is preaching. Leaving that aside, what I DO know is fiction: fantasy, sci-fi, and just plain old fiction. And as this kind of literature, Tathea fails. The STORY was weak. Most characters were flat. The writing was often boring and strained. And to a point, Eliason even agrees. "But," he argues in defense of the book, "if Perry's attempt at times seems a little strained in its stylistic earnestness and expansive scope, this is understandable considering the circumstances and should not detract from the overall success of the effort." What circumstances should we consider? Should we excuse poor writing because the book has "a good message"? (What is it about this point of his that reminds me of our AML-List discussion of Feature Films for Families?) Oh, no. This very philosophy is what is hindering the progress of truly great Mormon literature, in my opinion. Eliason says Tathea is "Mormon literature in the fullest and richest sense of all that the term potentially implies." I answer, "No, no, and again I say NO!" Mormon literature CAN include this great "sweeping panoramic look at LDS ideas and concepts" AND have a well-wrought story without the "ethereal prose that has understandably struck some readers as boring and detached in places." Boring prose is NOT a prerequisite of showing the "right sort of reverence" Eliason believes is necessary to Tathea's subject. Several examples come to mind of authors who have succeded in writing with reverence in addition to glittering prose that keeps us hooked and is not boring. (Scott Card's "Saints" comes to mind.) Noble as Perry's goal was (Proffit quotes her as saying that the story was "for those who will take spiritual doctrine only if it is dressed as a story") there is NO excuse for poor writing. I am glad that Perry thought of something new to do. (It may be true that there are no other Mormon fiction works set on one of Elohim's and Jehova's other peopled works. However, I recall a short story in Bradbury's "Illustrated Man" in which space travelers arrive at a planet right after Christ ascended from there . . . but that's beside the point.) If nothing else, her experiment can spark ideas in some of the better writers among us. But let us, as readers and critics, not make excuses. Let us demand and expect quality writing and development in addition to quality theme. ===== Darlene Young __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Edgar Snow Subject: [AML] What Can AML-List Do for Me? Date: 06 Jul 2000 16:31:03 -0700 (PDT) Rachel, thank you for your observations on our treatment of LDS popular literature. I think you're right; there should be a serious discussion about popular Mormon fiction, including romance fiction, and perhaps you're the one to start it. If it hadn't been for Mark Twain, humor, my genre, would likely never be viewed as an object of serious study or worthy of critical acclaim (as infrequent as that may be). Of course, Twain was more than just a humorist, and I think perhaps that's the point. When I write humor, I realize only my mother will view it as great literature. I don't expect critics to pay much attention to it. Generally, my purpose is to entertain myself and hope other people will read it and laugh. But, I confess, deep down inside my goal is to write something funny and significant, something that will endure--not for my own literary immortality, but because I want my efforts to have mattered, to have made a difference. And I want people to read it because they are in love with the way I have said it. I would like to see a discussion of Mormon humor and other popular Mormon literature genres by critics who understand the boundaries of these genres and who can write about whether they work within those boundaries (not "limitations"). Genre literature should be viewed the way poetry is viewed with respect to its own conventions of meter, rhyme, etc. An Elizabethan sonnet should not be criticized for not being free verse. Rachel, I think this is what you are asking for. Only by appreciating successful works within those boundaries will anyone know if they have been transended. Ed Snow ===== My collection of humorous essays entitled _Of Curious Workmanship: Musings on Things Mormon_ has just been released and can be ordered from Signature Books at 1-800-356-5687, or from their website at http://www.signaturebooksinc.com/curious.htm or from Barnes & Noble at http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=5SLFMY1TYD&mscssid=HJW5QQU1SUS12HE1001PQJ9XJ7F17G3C&srefer=&isbn=1560851368 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: RE: [AML] Andrew's Poll Date: 06 Jul 2000 22:14:33 -0400 Then don't. Narrow it down to one I mean. This is a list poll. I don't think we need to be narrow. We can vote with opinions and recommendations. And maybe there will be more than one that we want to recommend. I personally read very little Mormon fiction, but I did read _Fine Old High Priest_ and very much enjoyed it. My husband, who reads even less than I do, read and enjoyed it as well. It is certainly a book I would recommend to anyone. It may not be "the best" but it's a fine read. Tracie -----Original Message----- I didn't respond to this poll, not because I hadn't read many of the books, but because I actually have read a good bit of them and I simply could not figure out how to narrow my favorites down to only one. I mean, if someone had asked me what my very favorite food is, I'd have the same problem. Is it raspberries fresh off the vine? Hot mushroom pizza with a soft, chewy crust? See's chocolate mint truffles? Ben & Jerry's chocolate brownie fudge frozen yogurt? Shrimp? Now ask me to give you a list of my favorite foods and I will write a list with loving descriptions of each. It's the same with my favorite books. But I cannot figure out how to narrow them down to one. -Beth Hatch - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rachel Ann Nunes" Subject: [AML] Andrew's Poll Date: 06 Jul 2000 20:10:50 -0600 After receiving a personal e-mail from an offended party on the list today, I want to make it clear that my comments on the poll were just that, and not directed toward anyone in particular. I was simply trying to point out the cons of such a poll. I sincerely believe that all works nominated are worthy of our review, and sorry if my comments suggested otherwise. I'm also glad the poll has served as a reading list for others. Thom Duncan said: >Not only that but how can we hope to ever compare such diverse works as >mentioned on the list. For instance, _Backslider_ and _Ariana_ address >two entirely different audiences. Those who've read Levi's work are >probably not the audience for Rachel's books, and vice versa. They not There is that problem. However, I read both kinds of novels and usually enjoy them both. When I don't like the literary type of novel it is because I can't get past the original premise. For instance, in one of Doug Thayer's novels (I can't remember the title now), two young boys are sent off to a ranch to be cowhands for the summer. I was appalled. What LDS parent in their right mind would send a teen who is already struggling with morality off to a ranch where there isn't anyone in sight except abusive, non-member cowhands who smoke, drink, and have just about no goals in life except to see that the child loses his virginity? Was the writing good? Probably. Were deep concepts discussed? Most likely. But the original idea was so preposterous to me that I couldn't take the novel seriously. I did read it all, but didn't appreciate it as I have many of the other recommended novels on this list. Of course, following the same vein, some people may not want to read my first Ariana novel because a baby dies of a recreational drug overdose, or my second because several main characters die from AIDS. Or any of my novels at all because there is a strong possibility of a happy ending. Maybe that to them sounds preposterous. Anyway, the point is, yes, we all have different tastes (I'm sure many out there loved Thayer's novel), but I feel there should be more crossover than there is. Both in reading and in writing. Only in that way do I believe we can honestly influence the Mormon market toward better writing. My novel, _Tomorrow and Always_ (coming Sept. 2000) deals with abortion, a very touchy subject in our society. Is it a romance? Well, it's being billed as such, and I wonder how many people won't read it because of that. My story begins with a couple who have been married ten years. They haven't been able to have children. They are also inactive Mormons with serious Word of Wisdom problems. This isn't a boy-meets-girl-and-after-a-few-heaving-bosoms-live-happily-ever-after story. My character can never undo the choice she made, and her husband may just never forgive her. (Or her parents or God, for that matter.) Are there deep ideas involved? I certainly hope so. Besides the ever-present flaws and despite the happy ending, there has to be something in those 250 pages that even a literary critic could read and say, "You know, this idea was good, and I appreciated the honesty of it." Or, "the description of Kodiak Island was very poetic." Something. Anything. This is what I would like to see reflected in criticism, rather than an us versus them mentality. Yes, let's discuss the flaws, but let's also applaud the good, however minute it may be. Then those of us who are beginning, and those of us who want very much to improve our craft, can have a starting place. I don't feel this would necessarily be chasing after the literary critics, but a sincere effort to improve. Most writers will always stay true to their stories, regardless. Admittedly, many of the book reviewers on this list manage to give great critiques with their reviews. I very much enjoy their comments, and I often will go right out and get the book. I appreciate all of you who take the effort to report back on the novels you've read. About the Great Mormon Novel. Thom, I think you're right. Only after we're dead will we know which novels stood the test of time. Maybe it'll even come from someone on this list . . . or maybe from one of our grandchildren. Rachel ________________________________ Rachel Ann Nunes Author of the best-selling novel To Love and to Promise E-mail: rachel@ranunes.com Web page: http://www.ranunes.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Todd Robert Petersen" Subject: Re: [AML] AAR Agents in Utah? Date: 06 Jul 2000 21:57:25 -0500 > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3045765445_111937_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Bill, the answer as to why AAR doesn't list agents in Utah is simple and a bit discouraging. Most agents in America work out of New York. There are a few in LA, Denver, Seattle, Chicago, and Boston, but not many. Most agents out west are very specalized. For access to the big houses, a New York agent is pretty much necessary. And you can't get any international coverage without a New York agent. It is the center of things, really since only small houses exist outside of Manhattan. Todd Robert Petersen --MS_Mac_OE_3045765445_111937_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: [AML] AAR Agents in Utah? Bill,

the answer as to why AAR doesn't list agents in Utah is simple and a bit di= scouraging.  Most agents in America work out of New York.  There a= re a few in LA, Denver, Seattle, Chicago, and Boston, but not many.  
Most agents out west are very specalized.  For access to the big house= s, a New York agent is pretty much necessary.  And you can't get any in= ternational coverage without a New York agent.  It is the center of thi= ngs, really since only small houses exist outside of Manhattan.

Todd Robert Petersen
--MS_Mac_OE_3045765445_111937_MIME_Part-- - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Needle Subject: Re: [AML] TARR, _The Gathering Storm_ (Review) Date: 06 Jul 2000 20:54:39 -0700 At 03:07 PM 7/5/00 -0600, you wrote: >>Kenneth R. Tarr, “The Last Days - Volume 1 - The >>Gathering Storm” >>(c) 1999, Cedar Fort Incorporated >>Paperback, 202 pages, $11.99 > >Now that this book has been reviewed by someone other than me, the author's >daughter, I have a few comments to add, and certainly a different >perspective. I appreciate the time Jeff took to make his review, but unlike >other reviews he's done, I disagree with most of his negative statements. > Hi, Rachel. I'm one of the many who have enjoyed your books, and very much appreciate your thoughtful response to my review. First, I agree entirely that the print was too small! As a diabetic with failing eyes, reading such books is a real chore. But having purchased it, I was determined to see it through. I have no doubt your father did a great deal of research, He certainly knew all the possibilities. My problem, as I stated in the review, was the believability of everything happening so quickly and so thoroughly. I've read widely in LDS beliefs in the "last days," but can't remember envisioning a scenario as was pictured in "The Gathering Storm." You mention the scene with the dam breaking. Yes, it was nicely done, and I too worried about the fellow who was about to unleash a catastrophe. And having read the first book, I'm wondering what will become of the polyg leader who is about to be thrust onto the national scene. And there are other unresolved threads that just cry out for a sequel. All in all, I would have preferred a more temperate presentation, and I will look forward to reading the second volume when it's published (larger print pleeeze!). Thanks for the good response! --------------- Jeff Needle jeff.needle@general.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] Andrew's Poll Date: 07 Jul 2000 16:00:24 JST [MOD: I just want to take a moment to extend my personal thanks to Andrew for conducting this poll. It's certainly started a lot of discussion, which is, after all, what we're on this list for. As moderator, I don't have a lot of time to generate the kind of discussion-starters that help keep the conversation moving forward. So I'm very grateful to those like Andrew, and our various book reviewers (both solicited and not), and Jana (who coordinates the reviews), and Ed Snow with his columns, and others who take the time to start new threads and post items that keep the conversation going.] I'm posting the results of Andrew's Poll today, just in time for a little controversy about it. So let me respond to what has been said. Rachael wrote: "While I have read most everything that has been nominated or mentioned on this list, I get the distinct feeling that this is not true with many of the voters. How then can we compare novels and choose one to represent us if we have not read what is out there?" Yeah, it would be better if we had read all the nominations, like the judge(s) for the real AML awards do every year. But that's not going to happen, very few of us are professional Mormon literature readers, with time to read so much in one area. That was why I said this is more of a People's Choice award, reflecting both achievement and popularity together, while the annual AML award is solely a literary award. Also, one of the reasons I wanted to do the poll is to hear what (and how much) Mormon lit people have enjoyed reading lately. It is just a poll of fans, not a real award. (Although I was reluctant to include the vote of the person who had only read one book on the nominated list). "Wouldn't it be better to find a list of novels and have EVERYBODY who wants to vote read them ALL . . ." To which Lynn added, "I'd love to see the vote extended for six months, giving people time to read those listed. Then it would be wonderful to discuss the books." Sure, if you'd like. That would kind of combine the poll with the Celestial Reading Corner that was held on the list a couple of years ago. Someone would pick a book or play, and the list members discussed it on line. I seem to remember that there wasn't a lot of participation in the reading group back then, however, except for when it was a play that was posted on the web site for everyone to read for free. In any case, that goes beyond what I'm doing, someone else would need to volunteer to run the reading group. For the first few months here, I'm just planning to do quick and dirty, "What are your favorite books?" questions, gathering peoples' recommendations of recent novels, short stories, plays, etc. Maybe after that I'll try some of the different things you've recommended (eventually I will run out of things to ask, so I'm open to anyone's suggestions). Beth wrote: "I didn't respond to this poll, not because I hadn't read many of the books, but because I actually have read a good bit of them and I simply could not figure out how to narrow my favorites down to only one.. . . Now ask me to give you a list of my favorite foods and I will write a list with loving descriptions of each. It's the same with my favorite books. But I cannot figure out how to narrow them down to one." Yes, please do give us loving descriptions of each. I agree, the idea of giving rankings and votes to any artistic work is very artificial, and really not fair. I mostly saw it as a tool to get people to tell me what they like, without making them feel like they had to sit down and write a full blown review. So if you don't want to narrow it down to one, please go ahead and tell us about all the books you like. That is my real goal, not finding a single winner. Thom said: "I would prefer seeing something like: Best LDS Romance Novel of the 90's, or Best Literary Novel. Then you can compare more easily Nunes to Stansfield, or Peterson to Sillito." Good idea. Too late for the novel category for now, though, I'm tired of it, and am itching to move on to short stories. I plan on breaking down future categories more, however, to avoid these kinds of apples and oranges comparisons. I'll probably get back to novels some day, and will use what I've learned from this experience. To sum up, I can see that some take this poll more seriously than I meant for it to be taken. I can understand that, if for no other reason than that many of the nominated authors are participants here, who of course take their work seriously. And the rest of us certainly don't want to make our friends feel bad. But I'm just a fan enjoying myself by looking for meaningful literature that addresses my culture and beliefs. I like to tell others when I find some, and I like to hear from others about what they have found, and I saw this as a way of doing that. Thanks for your suggestions, I should be able to use many of them to make the poll fairer and more effective, and thanks to all who have participated so far. Andrew Hall Nagereyama, Japan ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] Best Novel Results (Andrew's Poll) Date: 07 Jul 2000 16:02:52 JST Time to wrap up the first Andrew's Poll. Thanks to the 18 people who voted. We finished with a four-way tie for the Best Mormon Novel of the 1990s, with two votes for each. The four were: Margaret Blair Young's "Salvador" (Aspen, 1992), Rachel Ann Nunes' "Ariana" series (Covenant, 1996-1999), and Robert Hodgson Van Wagoner's "Dancing Naked" (Signature, 1999). Lisa Peck's "Dangerous Memories/More Precious than Diamonds" (CFI, 1998-1999) Margaret Young won for the most number of total votes received, with two for "Salvador", and one for "House Without Walls". Orson Scott Card also received two votes, one for "Pastwatch" and another for "Xenocide", as did Wolverton, one for "The Runelords" and another for "Path of a Hero". Others receiving one vote each were: Judith Freemen "A Desert of True Feeling" Dean Hughes "Children of the Promise" series Benson Parkinson "The MTC: Set Apart" Levi Peterson "Aspen Maroony" Marilyn Brown, "Statehood" My comments: The voting shows the variety of tastes found here on the list, from the romantic, faith-promoting fiction of Nunes to Van Wagoner's tale of homophobia and despair, with Young's "sharky but faithful" books in between, and Card and Wolverton's speculative fiction thrown in for good measure. All of the novels were published by Mormon-related publishers, with the exception of Card, Wolverton, and Freeman's works. Neither Card nor Wolverton's books dealt directly with Mormon characters or themes, and Freeman does only tagently (I think, I haven't read it). Also, although I believe the characters are Mormon in "Aspen Maroony", I don't think Mormonism is a major theme in it (but I've just read an excerpt). Mormonism is a key aspect of all of the others, I believe. As for the publishers, Aspen received the most with four votes, Signature received three, and Covenant and CFI got two a piece. As I said in my last post, please don't take any of this too seriously. This is obviously a very small sampling of fans, with a statistically insignificant difference of votes between the nominated works. It is just fun to hear what books you recommend. Next week I'll introduce the next poll, which will be on Mormon short stories in the 1990s. Andrew Hall ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] What Can AML-List Do for Me? Date: 07 Jul 2000 01:14:58 -0600 Rachel Ann Nunes wrote: > ...for the past few months (or more), I've been discouraged with the negative view of > the popular Mormon literature that is being published today, coupled with > the obvious lack of reading that same literature. > ...I think that most of the novels > being published for the Mormon market must have at least one redeeming > feature, and while it's important to know why something doesn't work (in the > literary sense), it is equally important to know what does work. > I have to wonder why more *best-selling* Mormon authors (best-selling > defined as at least five or six thousand copies in the first few months of > release) aren't participating on the AML. Are they just too busy? Or are > they leery of the constant criticism that doesn't seem to be pointing them > in any direction? > It may be that those who feel the way I do simply don't have time to post. > Or they're afraid of being marked as an infidel. As one of the people who have complained about LDS literature, I think I'm in a position to say this--sort of like only Nixon could go to China. For people to have their tastes lie in strongly literary directions is not a problem. To go beyond that and belittle all other forms of literature is inexcusable arrogance. If a book is popular, it _must_ be doing something right, and that something is a good something. That book is communicating with human beings on a level they're ready to listen to. To belittle the book is to belittle the people to whom it speaks. Belittling people is not a good habit to acquire. It's reasonable to lament that few people like literary writing, therefore little of it exists, therefore I can't read as much of it as I would like. But to take the next step and say there's something wrong with all those people because they refuse to like the things I like is unjustifiable by any reasonable moral code. If people won't buy literary writing, then publishers won't publish it and authors can't sell it. That's called real life. To this day the universe has refused to bend to my will no matter how loud I whine, not since I lived at home with mommy anyway. If you want to read more literary books, more need to be published. For more to be published, more people need to want to read them. To this day I have never managed to pursuade a human being to align his attitude with mine by attacking or belittling him. If we want LDS people to develop more "discriminating" tastes in LDS literature (i.e., to think more like me) then we need to accept reality and use tactics that are actually effective, not just self-gratifying. We need a "How to Win Friends and Influence People" strategy. I suspect that strategy would involve some kind of incremental approach: writing slightly more literary books that still "speak to the masses," then slightly more, and slightly more. Face it--we're never going to entice regular people to read literary books by trying to sell them on "literary." We need to entice them with carrots they already like, and throw in a little clandestine literariness so they can gradually acquire a taste for it. Pleasant, gradual exposure is the only tactic that is likely to work. But there's nothing pleasant about being told you're an idiot for liking the books you like so shape up. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jason Steed" Subject: Re: [AML] What Can AML-List Do for Me? Date: 07 Jul 2000 07:39:09 PDT Thom Duncan wrote: > >Rachel, neither you, I, nor anyone else currently reading this list will >write the Great Mormon Novel (GMN). That is, we may write it but we >will never know about it in this life. What makes the Great Mormon >Novel will be the passage of time. Several generations yet unborn will >have to read this work and enjoy it for such a thing to come to pass. >Not only that, but several different ages of people in that same >generation will have to read it and like it, adult and young people. >History and history alone decides the Greatness of any work of art. This is a fallacy. If history and history alone decides the greatness of a work of art, then why, until recently (the last 20-30 yrs) were all the "great" works of art written by white male authors? And I don't mean women and minority authors started writing well in the last 20-30 yrs, I mean there were books by these authors that weren't considered great until 20-30 yrs ago. Kate Chopin's _The Awakening_ is a perfect example. It was written around the turn of the century (19th to 20th, that is), but wasn't decidedly "great" until recently. The same can be said for works by African Americans, Native Americans, etc.--they existed in practical oblivion, but later became great. How? The fact is, people construct the canons of "great" literature. And these people are not the general public, but mainly the scholars and critics that you scorn when you say: >Chasing the illusive literay critic has never made sense to me. I would >much rather be a successful author with a loyal fan base who enjoyed >consistent sales and have literary critic hate my guts. The person who >reads your work and enjoys it -- that is the most important thing. >Being hailed by critics, though perhaps pleasing to the Natural Man in >us all, is so fleeting an enjoyment. I see working hard to be the kind >of writer who can sell DESPITE what the critics may say as a larger >accomplishment. Stephen King, for instance, could type up the phone book >and it would sell, regardless of what any critic might ever say. Yes, but will Stephen King be around later, if the critics and those who create curriculums at high schools and universities don't think his work is any good? Now, I don't completely disagree with the notion that we shouldn't write _to_ the critics. Writing _to_ anyone, IMO, can compromise artistic integrity. But that goes likewise for writing _to_ an audience and making deliberate efforts to form a "substantial fan base." IMO we have to adopt Faulkner's attitude, when he put all readers and critics and editors behind a door and refused to listen to them, and said, "Now I can write." With that, he produced _The Sound and the Fury_--which was not a commercial success, nor was it an immediate critical success. But it has come to be known (thanks to later critics and scholars) as one of the greatest American novels ever written. That's what we have to do: write what's in us. Forget about the critics? Okay. Yes. But forget about the fans, too. Just write. Jason ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "lynn gardner" Subject: RE: [AML] Best Novel Results (Andrew's Poll) Date: 07 Jul 2000 08:25:48 -0700 Thank you, thank you, Andrew, for instigating the thoughtful posts that evolved from this poll. I'm now armed with a marvelous list of must-read novels and new ideas for improvement of my own. Lynn Gardner - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Margaret Young Subject: Re: [AML] Andrew's Poll Date: 07 Jul 2000 10:18:49 -0600 The title of Doug's book is _Summerfire_. Rachel Ann Nunes wrote: > For instance, in one of Doug > Thayer's novels (I can't remember the title now), two young boys are sent > off to a ranch to be cowhands for the summer. I was appalled. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rachel Ann Nunes" Subject: Re: [AML] What Can AML-List Do for Me? Date: 07 Jul 2000 11:06:38 -0600 Thank you for your comments Ed. Tell me, is your book of humorous essays also at Barnes & Noble (not just their on-line store)? I'm doing a booksigning there tonight in Orem and while I'm twiddling my thumbs, a humorous essay or two could come in very handy. Rachel ________________________________ Rachel Ann Nunes Author of the best-selling novel To Love and to Promise E-mail: rachel@ranunes.com Web page: http://www.ranunes.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Audience for Mormon Literature? Date: 07 Jul 2000 02:04:53 -0600 Bill Willson wrote: > As far as what rank and file Mormon authors write, from the LDS > POV, I think it should be written with the same intent as the > books I have cited above [scriptures]. That is they should be written by > Mormons for the whole world, with the intent and purpose of > drawing readers into a state of mind, where they have a desire > to visit the place we are coming from intellectually and > spiritually. > > Maybe my views are a bit too idealistic, but that is the aim and > goal I have set for myself. I think it is very selfish of us to > presume we are only to write for the enlightened few, and keep > our light hidden under a bushel basket. You sound like you are recommending the other extreme: "only" writing for the world. As a group, we ought to write for everyone, just like we ought to be as concerned about fellowshipping existing members so they don't drop away as we are about converting non-members. Some of us will be more interested in writing to fellow Mormons, others to the world, still others to both groups. To have set your personal goal to sharing with the world is fine, wonderful. But we members would like to have literature written for us too. The world has room for all kinds of literature just like it has room for all kinds of people. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Willson" Subject: Re: [AML] AAR Agents in Utah? Date: 07 Jul 2000 12:16:24 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BFE80D.2B833060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [AML] AAR Agents in Utah?Thanks Todd I do not doubt your information at all. I find your answer not only = discouraging but sad. Hasn't any of these literary movers and shakers = heard about global communications, and the Internet? Why would anyone = prefer to stay in New York to work in an industry in which the day to = day business could be conducted from just about anywhere?=20 I would find it very difficult to trust my Mss to anyone who preferred = New York to just about anywhere, except LA, in the west. Oh well this is = just one person's opinion. Se la vie! Regards, Bill Willson Keep your hand moving and your muse alive. bwillson@mtwest.net=20 =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Todd Robert Petersen=20 To: aml-list@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2000 8:57 PM Subject: Re: [AML] AAR Agents in Utah? Bill,=20 the answer as to why AAR doesn't list agents in Utah is simple and a = bit discouraging. Most agents in America work out of New York. There = are a few in LA, Denver, Seattle, Chicago, and Boston, but not many. =20 Most agents out west are very specalized. For access to the big = houses, a New York agent is pretty much necessary. And you can't get = any international coverage without a New York agent. It is the center = of things, really since only small houses exist outside of Manhattan. Todd Robert Petersen ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BFE80D.2B833060 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [AML] AAR Agents in Utah?
Thanks Todd

I do not doubt your information at all. I find your answer not only=20 discouraging but sad. Hasn't any of these literary movers and shakers = heard=20 about global communications, and the Internet? Why would anyone prefer = to stay=20 in New York to work in an industry in which the day to day business = could be=20 conducted from just about anywhere?

I would find it very difficult to trust my Mss to = anyone who=20 preferred New York to just about anywhere, except LA, in the west. Oh = well this=20 is just one person's opinion. Se la vie!

Regards,
Bill Willson
Keep your hand moving and = your muse=20 alive.
bwillson@mtwest.net =

 

 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Todd Robert=20 Petersen
To: aml-list@lists.xmission.com =
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2000 = 8:57=20 PM
Subject: Re: [AML] AAR Agents = in=20 Utah?

Bill,

the answer as to why AAR doesn't list = agents in=20 Utah is simple and a bit discouraging.  Most agents in America = work out=20 of New York.  There are a few in LA, Denver, Seattle, Chicago, = and=20 Boston, but not many.  

Most agents out west are very = specalized.=20  For access to the big houses, a New York agent is pretty much = necessary.=20  And you can't get any international coverage without a New York = agent.=20  It is the center of things, really since only small houses exist = outside=20 of Manhattan.

Todd Robert = Petersen
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BFE80D.2B833060-- - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Margaret Young Subject: Re: [AML] YOUNG, _I Am Jane_ (Performances) Date: 07 Jul 2000 13:10:39 -0600 Thanks for this info, Marilyn. We don't subscribe to any newspaper, so I haven't seen a review. The information I've received is that we've already pre-sold about 100 tickets for each of the remaining performances, so if any of you want to see it, you really should reserve. For those of you who live out of town, we are taking the show to Chicago, if that helps anyone. We'll perform it at Curie High School on July 29. Monday's performance was our best yet. [MOD: Chicago--only six hours away. Sigh...] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Alan Mitchell" Subject: Re: [AML] Andrew's Poll Date: 07 Jul 2000 10:57:49 -0600 >Rachel Ann Nunes wrote: > >> For instance, in one of Doug >> Thayer's novels (Summerfire), two young boys are sent >> off to a ranch to be cowhands for the summer. I was appalled. I would like to tackle the most benign of Rachel's comments, living on what most people would call a ranch. Either she received the negative impressions of ranch life from the Thayer book, or personal experience, or perhaps from the culture. In any case, I would have to agree she has the right to be appalled. On a ranch they herd animals about as if they were cattle. And the animals deficate where-ever and when-ever they want to--not the kind of training young boys need. Barbwire causes wounds that actually bleed! And all cowhands have a word of wisdom problem and swear and walk bow-legged. No-sir-ee. Young men should spend their time picking up girls in the malls--where they belong. I think Jackie O Kennedy showed the proper way to deal with youth when she sent the young Jon-Jon to a Wyoming ranch in the summers. And we all know what an good example he turned out to be, by George. Alan Mitchell - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Melissa Proffitt Subject: [AML] Reading Group (was: Andrew's Poll) Date: 07 Jul 2000 13:28:21 -0600 On Fri, 07 Jul 2000 16:00:24 JST, Andrew Hall wrote: >To which Lynn added, "I'd love to see the vote extended for six months,=20 >giving people time to read those listed. Then it would be wonderful to=20 >discuss the books." > >Sure, if you'd like. That would kind of combine the poll with the = Celestial=20 >Reading Corner that was held on the list a couple of years ago. Someone= =20 >would pick a book or play, and the list members discussed it on line. I= =20 >seem to remember that there wasn't a lot of participation in the reading= =20 >group back then, however, except for when it was a play that was posted = on=20 >the web site for everyone to read for free. In any case, that goes = beyond=20 >what I'm doing, someone else would need to volunteer to run the reading=20 >group. I don't remember if this was the same reading group--I kind of think it wasn't--but the one I remember from a few years ago was associated with AML-list but not moderated by it. Jacob and I had joined AML-list just before the next book was announced; it was _Bethlehem Road_ by Anne = Perry, there was quite a bit of discussion (I thought), and then no more books = were announced and it sort of disappeared. I enjoyed both the reading group and our play discussions, though it's = true that the last play we read didn't generate a lot of discussion. I = hesitate to volunteer to lead another online reading group, because having just = had a baby I can't tell how much free time I'm going to have or even how much sleep I will be getting in the next few months. (Though the number of = books I read never seems to drop just after I've had a baby; this says = something about my priorities, I'm sure.) But I wonder--the list has gained a = large number of new members recently; is there once again an interest in = reading and discussing Mormon lit online? I know I would be interested. What = say ye all? Melissa Proffitt (who might be persuaded to run such a group, if Jacob doesn't stop her) =20 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jason Steed" Subject: [AML] Genre (was: What Can AML-List Do for Me?) Date: 07 Jul 2000 11:36:39 PDT Edgar Snow wrote: >Rachel, thank you for your observations on our >treatment of LDS popular literature. I think you're >right; there should be a serious discussion about >popular Mormon fiction, including romance fiction, and >perhaps you're the one to start it. > >If it hadn't been for Mark Twain, humor, my genre, >would likely never be viewed as an object of serious >study or worthy of critical acclaim (as infrequent as >that may be). Of course, Twain was more than just a >humorist, and I think perhaps that's the point. > >When I write humor, I realize only my mother will view >it as great literature. I don't expect critics to pay >much attention to it. >I would like to see a discussion of Mormon humor and >other popular Mormon literature genres by critics who >understand the boundaries of these genres and who can >write about whether they work within those boundaries >(not "limitations"). Genre literature should be viewed >the way poetry is viewed with respect to its own >conventions of meter, rhyme, etc. An Elizabethan >sonnet should not be criticized for not being free >verse. Rachel, I think this is what you are asking >for. Only by appreciating successful works within >those boundaries will anyone know if they have been >transended. I just can't let this discussion of "genre" (here and in other posts) go by without chipping in my two bits. :) Edgar mentions that Twain 'survives' because he was "more than a humorist." I agree with this, and I assume Edgar means to imply that Twain is not perceived as "merely" a humorist, but as a generally "great" literary figure. Other humorists, like S.J. Perelman or James Thurber (just to name two that I'm familiar with), on the other hand, survive predominantly as "merely" humorists, among those who read and/or study humor. The same can be said of other "genre" writers. (It is important to point out that ALL writing is of a genre, even though we most often use the term perjoratively, as in "genre fiction," the implication being that this is not wholly, solidly "fiction," but some inferior subset.) E.A. Poe, for instance, does not survive as "merely" a horror writer, while chances are Dean Koontz will remain as such; and H.G. Wells or Aldous Huxley seem to transcend the realm of "merely" science fiction, while many others don't. I think it's important to acknowledge a major reason for the perjorative use of the term "genre fiction," which I think explains why it is often not taken seriously. Generally speaking, most "genres" (romance, western, SF, horror, etc.) are susceptible to formulaic structures, stereotypical characters or scenarios, and an overabundance of cliches. PLEASE NOTE: I personally believe that "genre" fiction is a perfectly valid and worthwhile endeavor--as potentially legitimate and meaningful and valuable as "literary" fiction. This post is not an attack on "genre" fiction. It also must be noted that so-called "mainstream" or "literary" (or, shall I use the oxymoron and say, "non-genre") fiction can be susceptible to these same pitfalls. The difference--if I may speculate, and please disagree with me, as this is a from-the-hip speculation and may very well be significantly flawed--the difference, perhaps, is in audience. The general fan of "romance fiction," for example, is a fan of the genre _because_ the genre provides certain things regularly--so, the repitition of those things (formulaic plots, et al), is not perceived as a negative thing. Same goes for the other genres. Yes, creativity--something "new"--is admired and lauded, but overall, certain conventions must be upheld, or the work ceases to be of the genre. To be a great SF novel, the book must still be classifiably SF. In this way, IMO, "genre" fiction runs the greater risk of susceptibility to such things as are listed above. For the "literary" crowd (fortunately or unfortunately), these things (formulaic plot, et al) are looked down upon. (This is ironic, of course, because formulaic plots and stereotypical characters/scenarios still exist, en masse.) The key, IMO, is that the "literary" genre--though it has its conventions, of course--is less limiting. It is not hard to write a GOOD non-Western (it can be so many other things and still be GOOD); but it is very hard to write a GOOD non-literary novel--because the fact that it is GOOD makes it a candidate for being classified as "literary," while this is not enough to classify it as "Western." (Edgar refers to the 'limitations' of a genre as 'boundaries'--a subtle, and not altogether meaningful distinction, IMO. How does a 'boundary' differ, meaningfully, from a 'limitation'?) Thus, "genre fiction"--because it runs a greater risk of incorporating things that are considered "bad" by the "literary" audience (a risk that is inherent in the way the genre is constructed)--is more susceptible to criticism--or at least more susceptible to being relegated to the realms of the perjoratively labeled "genre fiction," as opposed to just plain "fiction"--than "mainstream" or "literary" or "non-genre" (or "just plain") fiction. Does this make sense? Again, I'm shooting a bit from the hip, and I want to stress that I do not personally harbor a prejudice against "genre fiction." Many of the books I admire (for their "literary" merits) might be classifiably Western, or fantasy, or romance. And clearly there is just as much (maybe more) "pulp" being written in "mainstream" fiction as there is in any "genre." My question is, for those who DO write what might be classifiable as "genre fiction": How DO you toe the line and make what you write "new" and "original" while maintaining those elements necessary to the genre? It seems to me that this is a greater challenge for "genre" writers than for "mainstream" blokes like myself. And it also must be noted that all that I'm saying is said from the presupposition that a writer WANTS to be "new" or "original," or to 'survive' as more than "merely" a "genre" writer. It is perfectly possible (and perfectly acceptable) for a writer to WANT to be formulaic, and to be known as "strictly" (instead of "merely") a "genre" writer. There is a lot of money in this, and writers like Danielle Steele and John Grisham are, I'm sure, perfectly happy with churning out one formulaic, "genre" book after another and raking in the dough. But I've gone on long enough--did anybody read the whole post? Jason ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Melissa Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] PERRY, _Tathea_ Date: 07 Jul 2000 14:13:11 -0600 I've been waiting for my review to appear in _Irreantum_ before beginning any sort of discussion of _Tathea_, mainly because...hmm. I don't = remember why. It seemed a little too close to cross-posting the review (something Jonathan addressed recently) and I suppose I wanted _Irreantum_ to have first crack at it. That said, I am interested in seeing how many of you have read _Tathea_ = and what your reactions were, good or bad. Anyone else want to chime in? On Fri, 07 Jul 2000 10:10:05 -0500, Darlene Young wrote: >Proffitt feels that Tathea fails because it fails as >fantasy. In his response, Eliason does not completely >refute her assertion. So what if it doesn't conform >to specific rules of fantasy? Neither do >"Frankenstein," "1984," "Brave New World" and >"Utopia." But, Eliason goes on, it may not actually >belong to the fantasy genre. "It fits much better in >the philosophical/moral-treatise-in-story-form genre >of books which occasionally have fantasy elements but >are not fantasy per se." He cites Bach's "Jonathon >Livingston Seagull" and Mandino's "Richest Man in >Babylon" as examples of this genre. My greatest disagreement with Eric's review (and he's not alone in = thinking this way) is with the idea that _Tathea_ is not strictly fantasy and = should not be held to the same requirements. It's true that _Tathea_ is a philosophical treatise; this is the only way in which I think it = succeeds. But it is UNIVERSALLY being shelved, in bookstores and libraries, in the science fiction/fantasy section. This is not true of any of the other = books cited by Eric. The store positioning of a book is a reflection of how a book is being marketed to the readers. In other words, regardless of = what _Tathea_ actually *is*, it's being *sold* as fantasy, and most readers = will come to it expecting to find a fantasy. From the research I did, it was clear that those readers were the ones most disappointed--they were = judging it against other fantasy epics and not _Jonathan Livingston Seagull_. Because of this positioning, in my opinion it is entirely legitimate to judge _Tathea_ on the basis of its fulfilling the demands of the fantasy genre. And it's not just that bookstores are making the decision to put _Tathea_= in the fantasy section. This is what Perry chose--not to become a fantasy author, not to "write a fantasy novel," but to write a book that was nevertheless overtly fantastical in tone. What I find strange is that, = as a writer of historical mysteries, Perry must know how important it is to = get the details right so she doesn't have rabid fans writing letters about everything she got wrong in her last book. That this was, to her, = primarily a labor of love and an expression of testimony doesn't convince me that = she didn't need to do her homework. Yes, I am more or less a fantasy snob. I read a *lot* of fantasy and = have been doing critical analysis of same for almost as long as I've been studying literature--not terribly long, and certainly without benefit of credentials, but still. So it irks me to read books that display a lack = of understanding of the basic requirements of this genre. As long as Perry = was going to all the trouble of writing a huge novel surrounding her philosophical foundation, why not put in a little more effort and really make it a good fantasy--or even just a good story? Because to give Perry credit, she has done a fantastic job of transmuting peculiarly Mormon doctrine into a nonspecific fictional religion without waxing heretical. The philosophical aspect of this book really is good. But the story (or,= if you want to be more pessimistic, the lack of story) gets in the way of = that core element. And I found that disappointing. Melissa Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Melissa Proffitt Subject: [AML] Reading Group (was: Andrew's Poll) Date: 07 Jul 2000 13:28:21 -0600 On Fri, 07 Jul 2000 16:00:24 JST, Andrew Hall wrote: >To which Lynn added, "I'd love to see the vote extended for six months,=20 >giving people time to read those listed. Then it would be wonderful to=20 >discuss the books." > >Sure, if you'd like. That would kind of combine the poll with the = Celestial=20 >Reading Corner that was held on the list a couple of years ago. Someone= =20 >would pick a book or play, and the list members discussed it on line. I= =20 >seem to remember that there wasn't a lot of participation in the reading= =20 >group back then, however, except for when it was a play that was posted = on=20 >the web site for everyone to read for free. In any case, that goes = beyond=20 >what I'm doing, someone else would need to volunteer to run the reading=20 >group. I don't remember if this was the same reading group--I kind of think it wasn't--but the one I remember from a few years ago was associated with AML-list but not moderated by it. Jacob and I had joined AML-list just before the next book was announced; it was _Bethlehem Road_ by Anne = Perry, there was quite a bit of discussion (I thought), and then no more books = were announced and it sort of disappeared. I enjoyed both the reading group and our play discussions, though it's = true that the last play we read didn't generate a lot of discussion. I = hesitate to volunteer to lead another online reading group, because having just = had a baby I can't tell how much free time I'm going to have or even how much sleep I will be getting in the next few months. (Though the number of = books I read never seems to drop just after I've had a baby; this says = something about my priorities, I'm sure.) But I wonder--the list has gained a = large number of new members recently; is there once again an interest in = reading and discussing Mormon lit online? I know I would be interested. What = say ye all? Melissa Proffitt (who might be persuaded to run such a group, if Jacob doesn't stop her) =20 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: [AML] SNOW, _Of Curious Workmanship_ (was: What Can AML-List Do for Me?) Date: 07 Jul 2000 15:01:21 -0600 On Fri, 7 Jul 2000 11:06:38 -0600 "Rachel Ann Nunes" writes: > Thank you for your comments Ed. Tell me, is your book of humorous > essays also at Barnes & Noble (not just their on-line store)? I'm doing a > booksigning there tonight in Orem and while I'm twiddling my thumbs, > a humorous essay or two could come in very handy. I saw one or two copies of Ed's book in that very store a couple of weeks ago. Once again, the price was prohibitive. Maybe I just don't get it, but when I check the price on a four-hundred page trade paperback by Anita Stansfield and find that it is the same (or less, actually) for a one-hundred page trade by Ed Snow I am a bit disheartened. I don't want to buy most of the mormon literature that is available, but if I can get a book with lots of stuff in it for 14.95, why should I be happy to buy a book with a whole lot less stuff in it for 16.95? Just 'cause it's better stuff? This is probably pretty shallow of me, but when I spend 16.95 for a book, I want it to last awhile, no matter how good it is ... it's just gotta last. 'Cause then I gotta go out and buy another book. If the thick book takes me ... oh, say, two weeks to read, and the thin one only one week, then I have to spend twice as much money to get the same amount of read. As sure as I am that I'm gonna like Ed's book, for the same amount of money I can get *two* books that I know I'm gonna like. And I'll save Ed's book for when I get a beefy residual check at a time when I'm not so desperate for food. And by that time, Ed's book will be out of print. Sorry Ed. J. Scott Bronson--The Scotted Line "World peace begins in my home" We are not the acolytes of an abstruse god. We are here to entertain--Keith Lockhart - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Varlo Davenport" Subject: [AML] _Wilford Woodruff: God's Fisherman_ Performance Date: 07 Jul 2000 15:36:32 -0600 Hi All, I edited this from the press release I'm sending out, if you're in Utah and have nothing to do on the evening of the 24th, come and visit. I've been doing the show since the Vernal Temple Dedication, (1997?). In addition to several performances around the state it's also been presented twice at BYU, most recently as part of 1998's Education Week. Varlo Davenport .................... A performance of Wilford Woodruff: God's Fisherman, will be presented July 24, at 7:00 P.M. in the American Fork Amphitheater, 850 E. 700 N. Varlo Davenport stars in this one-man show about Wilford Woodruff, fourth president of the LDS church. The play takes place early in the afternoon of July 23, 1847. Wilford has settled the ailing Brigham Young down for an afternoon nap and has walked "a few rods off" so that he can talk to the audience and use his fishing rod to get some dinner. Responding to the question supposedly asked of him by the audience, "How did the son of a Yankee miller, wind up here?" he casts out answers with materials taken from Woodruff's many diaries, speeches and family lore. The piece was co-written by Tim Slover and James Arrington when they were screen writers at the BYU Motion Picture Studio. "While we were writing it, we always knew I would play the part and James would direct it," Slover said. "Writing it wasn't all that difficult, but memorizing it was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life." Both authors say that the writing of the script was made easier because Woodruff meticulously recorded his life in his diaries, missionary journals, writings and speeches. Slover said that Woodruff's journals are filled with wonderful "human touches" that bring out a sense of his personality, including his love of fishing alluded to in the show's title. Davenport, who received an MFA in acting from the Ohio State University, has taught speech, theater and film classes for USU, CEU and UVSC. He currently serves as the American Fork City Arts Council Director. The performance begins at 7:00 p.m. Tickets are $5 per person or $20 for a six person family/group ticket. Tickets are available at the American Fork Recreation Department office, 68 E. 490 N. and will also be available at the door. It is presented by the AV Productions and the American Fork Arts Council as a fund raiser for the Arts Council. If you have any questions, please call Varlo Davenport at 763-3081. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tony Markham Subject: Re: [AML] Pulitzer Winners Date: 07 Jul 2000 11:52:15 -0400 Several posts have borne the heading "Where's Our Pulitzer Winner?" The answer might be in who is being nominated. As I understand the process, every publishing house is allowed one nominee per year for the various categories. I'd be interested in knowing the Pulitzer-nominated authors and titles for fiction from some of our houses: Deseret, Bookcraft, Signature, Covenant, etc. Anyone privy to this info? I suspect we might all be a little dismayed at who the publishers are putting forward as their best, and might come a little closer to understanding why there have been no winners (yet). [Tony Markham] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Neal Kramer Subject: [AML] THAYER, _Summer Fire_ (was: Andrew's Poll) Date: 07 Jul 2000 15:03:29 -0600 >Rachel Ann Nunes wrote: > >> For instance, in one of Doug >> Thayer's novels (I can't remember the title now), two young boys are sent >> off to a ranch to be cowhands for the summer. I was appalled. Many list subscribers are probably too young to remember what life was like for many young men along the Wasatch Front in the 1960's. This illustrates a real challenge for anyone interested in understanding the relationship between fiction and the culture which produced it. Without understanding the complex issues of moving from adolescence to manhood in that culture, it's hard to make sense of this very fine novel. It describes a harsh world, where difficult choices are made even more difficult by powerful temptation. The obligatory summer stay at the farm, the ranch, or even the pineapple fields in Hawaii was a common way for Mormons in the city, frightened about the lack of physical labor in town, to send their sons off to work hard to become men. It was supposed to prepare them for the hard work of missions, etc. During the 60's and early 70's, thousands of Mormon boys were sent off to work. Today we have EFY. Some would say the old days were much better, and turned out better men. Thayer was building on a common Mormon experience to describe the process of working, praying, being away from home, confronting evil, facing one's own mortality, searching for a testimony, and becoming a man. Fiction based solidly in the real world--where real people gain real testimonies. No Mormon writer out there today writes as well about the challenges young Mormon men face in a world that demands physical virtue from young men at the same time as the Church demands masculine spirituality. Thayer knew what the local "fight clubs" were all about long before we had them. Real men don't date girls named "Charly" :) Neal Kramer - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Willson" Subject: Re: [AML] What Can AML-List Do for Me? Date: 07 Jul 2000 15:31:23 -0600 Hi All Please forgive my lack of education or sophistication or whatever you choose to call it. Could someone please explain to me what this means? D. Michael Martindale wrote: > If people won't buy literary writing, then publishers won't publish it > and authors can't sell it. On almost every Agent listed in the AAR member list it says (Literary, Adult) So if this is what they are suggesting they deal with, why is it that "publishers won't publish it." Would someone please define literary for me. Webster says it is:1 a) of or relating to, or having the characteristics of human learning or literature. b) BOOKISH 2 c) of or relating to books 2 a) WELL READ b) of or relating to authors or scholars or to their professions. In my mind anything that has to do with what people read or write could be considered literature, according to this definition. Maybe I'm too simple to understand the deeper meaning of the word. Just because something doesn't suit my literary taste, doesn't mean it is not literature. One writer's meat is another writer's poison. I'm not sure but I think this is basically the same thing D. Michael Martindale is trying to point out, but IMHO publishers still publish "literary writing." I am an eclectic reader, I enjoy everything from Peanuts and Dr. Seuss to Aristotle and Mark Twain. To me it's all literary. Regards, Bill Willson Keep your hand moving and your muse alive. bwillson@mtwest.net - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: RE: [AML] Reading Group (was: Andrew's Poll) Date: 07 Jul 2000 17:55:13 -0400 I always got more reading done with a new baby. A great excuse to sit down. Now, with three teen-agers and four in the ten and under crowd........ I would love to read and discuss. Having a specific book would be a big help to me. I just can't guarantee I can keep up with every book Tracie PS-checked out the web site photos-lovely family -----Original Message----- I enjoyed both the reading group and our play discussions, though it's true that the last play we read didn't generate a lot of discussion. I hesitate to volunteer to lead another online reading group, because having just had a baby I can't tell how much free time I'm going to have or even how much sleep I will be getting in the next few months. (Though the number of books I read never seems to drop just after I've had a baby; this says something about my priorities, I'm sure.) But I wonder--the list has gained a large number of new members recently; is there once again an interest in reading and discussing Mormon lit online? I know I would be interested. What say ye all? Melissa Proffitt (who might be persuaded to run such a group, if Jacob doesn't stop her) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Darlene Young Subject: Re: [AML] Reading Group (was: Andrew's Poll) Date: 07 Jul 2000 15:34:00 -0700 (PDT) I'm very interested in a reading group. With help, I would even be willing to lead it. (I've led live reading groups before but I'm new to this on-line thing.) ===== Darlene Young __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Edgar Snow Subject: Re: [AML] Genre Date: 07 Jul 2000 15:39:04 -0700 (PDT) Jason, I agree with you in the main (and I read the entire post). I use the term "boundaries" for genre writing rather than "limitations" the same way we say short people are "vertically challenged." Genre writers shouldn't feel limited, although there are boundaries that guide them. I think that's a worthwhile distinction. And regarding Thurber, he's an enigma to me. Some of his writing is not humorous and every bit as good as, say, Truman Capote, and qualifies as plain old literary writing. I'm thinking of a piece Thurber wrote covering a murder trial (can't remember the name--appeared in his _My World and Welcome to It_)that reminded me of _In Cold Blood_ a great deal. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Thurber's style influenced Capote. But then I don't know much about Capote except for his flamboyance and that he shows up as Scout's (Harper Lee's) fastidious cousin in _To Kill a Mockingbird_, an autobiographical touch among others apparently in that book. Ed ===== My collection of humorous essays entitled _Of Curious Workmanship: Musings on Things Mormon_ has just been released and can be ordered from Signature Books at 1-800-356-5687, or from their website at http://www.signaturebooksinc.com/curious.htm or from Barnes & Noble at http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=5SLFMY1TYD&mscssid=HJW5QQU1SUS12HE1001PQJ9XJ7F17G3C&srefer=&isbn=1560851368 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Edgar Snow Subject: [AML] Re: Price of _Of Curious Workmanship_ Date: 07 Jul 2000 15:48:37 -0700 (PDT) Yes, Scott, I know, I know. I argued with Signature about the price, but they insisted that their "audience" didn't care. I think you're evidence to the contrary. I'm wondering if going with Signature, as much as I like the people I deal with, hasn't hurt me because of (i) $$$, and (ii) their perceived "apostate" trademark. At the time it seemed like the proper outlet for a Mormon humor collection. You could demand that your local library buy the book and then you could check it out. Actually, you could probably just read it in one sitting at B&N! Ed __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eileen Subject: Re: [AML] PERRY, _Tathea_ Date: 07 Jul 2000 17:12:44 -0600 Melissa wrote: >That said, I am interested in seeing how many of you have read _Tathea_ and >what your reactions were, good or bad. Anyone else want to chime in? I feel, after having read Melissa's well-reasoned review and Darlene's relief that Melissa agreed with her, almost declasse for having thoroughly enjoyed _Tathea_. I read it through once and within a week started it again. It was thought provoking for me and the essence of how I felt when reading lingers still almost a year later. Perhaps it was because I came to the book with no pre-conceived notions of what genre it was, perhaps my critical skills are are not as adept as I thought, I only know this, the book resonated with me. I also found that it provokes strong feelings from people. We had it for one of our selections for our Relief Society bookgroup and the discussion was anything but blase. The majority of the group did like the book, one participant suggesting that it broke the mold for fantasy. Eileen eileens99@bigplanet.com P.S: I have a question about the positioning of books in Barnes & Noble for instance or any other bookstore for that matter, who makes that decision? The Barnes & Noble near my home has _Tathea_ placed in the Mystery Section. I have to say I don't think it even comes close to that genre. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jim and Laurel Brady" Subject: Re: [AML] AAR Agents in Utah? Date: 07 Jul 2000 17:25:49 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BFE838.64740180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [AML] AAR Agents in Utah? For access to the big houses, a New York = agent is pretty much necessary. And you can't get any international = coverage without a New York agent. It is the center of things, really = since only small houses exist outside of Manhattan. Let me add to this excellent answer this: A New York agent can serve = a Utah writer very well--it's not necessary to live near your agent. I = happen to have the same NY agent several of my Utah writer friends have, = and to my knowledge NONE of us have met her in person yet.=20 Laurel Brady ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BFE838.64740180 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [AML] AAR Agents in Utah?
 For access to the big houses, a New York agent is pretty = much=20 necessary.  And you can't get any international coverage without = a New=20 York agent.  It is the center of things, really since only small = houses=20 exist outside of Manhattan.
Let me add to this excellent answer this:  A = New York=20 agent can serve a Utah writer very well--it's not necessary to live = near your=20 agent. I happen to have the same NY agent several of my Utah writer = friends=20 have, and to my knowledge NONE of us have met her in person yet. =
 
Laurel = Brady
------=_NextPart_000_0018_01BFE838.64740180-- - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Margaret Young Subject: Re: [AML] Andrew's Poll Date: 07 Jul 2000 17:48:09 -0600 I wonder if the lady in Marilyn's ward who thinks "Mormon literature isn't any good" realizes that Marilyn is one of Mormonism's fine writers. Marilyn & William Brown wrote: - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Margaret Young Subject: Re: [AML] YOUNG, _I Am Jane_ (Performances) Date: 07 Jul 2000 17:49:28 -0600 Guess what, Jonathan--we have people coming from as far away as 8 hours to see it in Chicago. The African American Mormon population is especially eager to see their own story told. Margaret Young wrote: > Thanks for this info, Marilyn. We don't subscribe to any newspaper, so I haven't seen a review. The information I've received is that we've already pre-sold about 100 tickets for each of the remaining performances, so if any of you want to see it, you really should reserve. For those of you who live out of town, we are taking the show to Chicago, if that helps anyone. We'll perform it at Curie High School on July 29. Monday's performance was our best yet. > > [MOD: Chicago--only six hours away. Sigh...] > > - > AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature > http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara@techvoice.com (Barbara R. Hume) Subject: Re: [AML] Genre Date: 07 Jul 2000 18:29:25 -0700 >(It is important to point out that ALL writing is of a genre, even though we >most often use the term perjoratively, as in "genre fiction," the >implication being that this is not wholly, solidly "fiction," but some >inferior subset.) I don't use the term pejoratively at all. In fact, I tend to use the terms "mainstream" or "literary" as insults. Just today we were having a discussion on a romance writers' list about why so many of us don't enjoy what Scott Card calls "li-fi." One answer that came up is that it is often self-conscious: the writer uses style, not to tell a story, but to call attention to himself. The style says, "Look at this! Watch me! Watch me!" like an annoying child who has learned to jump off the sofa onto his dad's belly. The other reason is that literary fiction so often stops telling the story to wander off and do something else, perhaps to impress the reader with the author's deep philosophical musings. Those of us who prefer genre fiction are those who care more about story than about literary flourishes. > My question is, for those who DO write what might be >classifiable as "genre fiction": How DO you toe the line and make what you >write "new" and "original" while maintaining those elements necessary to the >genre? It seems to me that this is a greater challenge for "genre" writers >than for "mainstream" blokes like myself. When I first started reading romance novels a few years ago, I was amazed, as I still am, at the wide variety of styles and stories that are possible with a genre that definitely must meet certain expectations. Basically, the expections are simple: man-woman-love-happiness. How the happiness is arrived at, what kinds of people the man and woman are, when and how they live, what kinds of experiences they go through, all of these are subject to great variety. (Even the man-woman thing has been occasionally altered, but gay love stories don't sell very well.) There are many sub-genres within the genre, and many different lines whose editors are looking for different kinds of stories. The only limitation you have as a romance writer is that you CANNOT end it with something like, "She screamed as the ship exploded out in the bay. She knew that he had sacrificed himself to save her. Even though bloody bits of him were now scattered across the waters, she would always be comforted by the knowledge that he had loved her enough to give his own life to destroy the brutal pirates." NOT! A romance hero worth his salt will not only blow up the pirate ship, but recover the stolen treasure, clear himself of the trumped-up charges against him, deliver the medication in time to save the heroine's dying brother, and then kiss her until her toes curl. And please don't blather on about "reality." If we're in the mood for reality, we can read li-fi. When we're in the mood for what this genre gives us, we read romance. Reality, IMHO, is highly overrated as a necessary component of a satisfying story. >But I've gone on long enough--did anybody read the whole post? I did, just in case I wanted to argue with anything at the end! barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: eedh Subject: Re: [AML] PERRY, _Tathea_ Date: 07 Jul 2000 15:34:14 -0700 [MOD: Apologies for not getting this message out in a timely manner.] Melissa Proffitt wrote: >> > That said, I am interested in seeing how many of you have read _Tathea_ and > what your reactions were, good or bad. Anyone else want to chime in? I just checked _Tathea_ out of the library about two hours ago. I've read the first few pages (before I got interrupted) and I was immediately hooked. I'm very much looking forward to immersing myself in it. I hope it turns out to be as good as it first appears to be. -Beth Hatch - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: eedh Subject: [AML] Re: PERRY, _Tathea_ Date: 07 Jul 2000 19:37:35 -0700 I've been reading a bit more of _Tathea_. I love the descriptions. "The sun rose above the horizon and poured a splendor of light across the desert floor." "She looked down a thousand feet to where the waves broke with a force that sent white spume fifty feet up into the air, dazzling in the sun, then fell back again into the cauldron of the blue-green water seething below." I was hooked from the first page of this book, when Tathea finds her family murdered and flees into the desert. I don't always like adventure books, but I cared for Tathea right from the beginning, and so I cared very much whether she made it to safety. I held my breath as she fled across the desert, and yet I would also find myself stopping to savor Perry's descriptive language. Somehow this didn't bother me to switch back and forth between the suspenseful story and the beauty of the language. But then I came to the part where Tathea stumbles upon an old woman mourning at a grave. Tathea comments that the woman must have loved the man (it was interesting to me that she assumed the dead person was a man) very much. The old woman says that she hadn't loved him much. Tathea asks why she's grieving. The old woman answers: "Because he had life....He had a chance to be brave and to seek the truth, to honor and defend it. He had time in which he could have faced fear and overcome it; to know himself without deceit, excuse, or self-pity; to bear pain without bitterness. He had days in which to laugh, to see beauty, to fill his heart with gratitude. He could have been kind and brave and generous....Above all, there were people he could have loved and learned to forgive. He is gone, and who is there in the world that is poorer?...Now all his chances are finished. Of course I weep for him!" Yikes! I hoped this speech wasn't foreshadowing. Unfortunately it was. Tathea finds safety in her mother's homeland and then seeking wisdom ("I want to know if there is any meaning in life. Why do I exist? Who am I?"), sails off to another land. I bogged down in the long, philosophizing speeches before the court scene. She escapes harm again, and upon waking to safety in the beginning of Chapter 3, she asks her companion, "Is truth all about power?" Oh no, I thought. The old lady's speech *was* foreshadowing. I have been led to care about Tathea, and it feels like she is gone. In her place are speeches and conversations about philosophy. There's nothing wrong with philosophy, of course, but that's not what I expected when I began the flight across the desert with her. Should I keep reading to find the bits and pieces of the story that tell what happened to her, or will the things that happen to her just be vehicles for more philosophizing? -Beth Hatch - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: [AML] YOUNG, _I Am Jane_ Date: 07 Jul 2000 23:53:31 -0600 [MOD: Again, I have to apologize for not getting this out in a timely manner. Because of the way the List operates, I'm not always able to guarantee that time-sensitive announcements will make it out at the appropriate time.] Just got back from seeing "I Am Jane." Had an enjoyable time. Really liked Margaret's script. Also enjoyed some of the performances. Really some remarkable things about this show. I recommend it to those of you in the Utah County area. You have two more chances (possibly three, if they extend to Tuesday night) to see it. I have spent a number of years participating in various critique groups and have always felt complimented when one of my peers will say something like, "If I were writing this I would have blah, blah, blah." Those kinds of comments mean that the person felt strongly enough about the material to want to make it their own somehow. Well, I sat in the Villa Theater tonight wishing that I could have been in "I Am Jane." Or wishing that I had directed it. Or that I had written it. J. Scott Bronson--The Scotted Line "World peace begins in my home" We are not the acolytes of an abstruse god. We are here to entertain--Keith Lockhart - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Payne Family" Subject: Re: [AML] What Can AML-List Do for Me? Date: 08 Jul 2000 01:37:13 -0600 Jason Steed wrote: > > That's what we have to do: write what's in us. Forget about the critics? > Okay. Yes. But forget about the fans, too. Just write. > Yes. Amen to this. But on the other hand, could there be such a person as an artist who's main artistic kick comes from communion with an audience (the "fans")? And I'm not talking here about prostituting artistic integrity to the lowest common denominator. I'm talking about the artist who, in tune with the community he serves, creates art precisely so that people can come together over it. It seems to me that while using art as a tool to *commune* with people (not necessarily to transcend them) may not get the Great Mormon Novel written, it still could be a pretty pure place to be coming from. Is that thinking too small? -Sam Payne - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Margaret Young Subject: [AML] _I Am Jane_ Date: 08 Jul 2000 10:40:03 -0600 Because we've had capacity crowds, we are extending _I Am Jane_ one night--into Tuesday, July 11. So that's the last opportunity to see it unless you live in Chicago. Thanks to the list members who've come. It really means a lot to see you there. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terry L Jeffress" Subject: Re: [AML] Genre Date: 08 Jul 2000 07:39:48 -0600 Jason Steed wrote: > . . . Thus, "genre fiction"--because it runs a greater risk of > incorporating things that are considered "bad" by the "literary" audience (a > risk that is inherent in the way the genre is constructed)--is more > susceptible to criticism--or at least more susceptible to being relegated to > the realms of the perjoratively labeled "genre fiction," as opposed to just > plain "fiction"--than "mainstream" or "literary" or "non-genre" (or "just > plain") fiction. The opposite also occurs. When a mainstream writer attempts to write genre fiction, the result often dissapoints regular genre readers. James Michener's _Space_ comes to mind; it works, but feels empty to sf readers. You see this same effect in movies too. For example, my wife, who rarely reads any sf, really liked _Stargate,_ which I found too simplistic, dealing with sf plots and themes that writers and movie makers have beaten to death. A whole field of literary theory deals with what the reader brings to the work. Readers who enjoy reading genre fiction bring a set of assumptions and understandings to that work. Theorists call these assumptions and understandings "protocols." All genres -- including mainstream -- have protocols, sometimes mutually exclusive protocols. Thus, mainstream writing probably will not fulfill the needs of an sf reader, and vice versa. Many people can read in multiple protocol modes. I can read and enjoy both Shakespeare and Asimov, but I use different protocols for each set of works. Mormon literature has a unique problem. Readers must have the Mormon protocols in addition to the usual genre protocols. Thus, for a reader to enjoy your Mormon space opera, that reader must have both the Mormon and space opera protocols. Any time you require two or more protocol sets, you severely limit your audience. Mormon romance novels turn me off. I understand all the Mormon stuff, but because I don't carry the romance protocols in my head, I cannot appreciate the novel -- regardless of how well crafted in the romance tradition. Tony Markham brought up part of Tolstoy's literary theory where the common man must find literature accessible for us to call that literature "good." But how do you define "common"? Every reader brings a unique worldview and union of protocol sets to a work of fiction. Critics can try to discover common threads in literature to which most readers respond positively, but you will always find exceptions. Just look in any university English department, and you will find at least one professor who cannot stand the works of Shakespeare. Everyone wants to have a wider audience, but actively trying to create literature for the common man -- the widest possible audience -- produces works deviod of depth or meaning. To me, the modern situation comedy demonstrates what happens when you try to produce a work targeted at too large an audience. Sure, everyone can watch and understand, but when did a sit-com last move you to great emotional depths or haunt you for days afterward the way your favorite literature has? Tolstoy based his theory on his desire to bring the greatest number of people closer to Christ. A worthy goal that fails to recognize that you cannot move all men with the same lever. In the same way each person has a unique reaction to a literary work, each person has a unique response to the Lord's work. Not every testimony on Fast Sunday moves me to tears, but some can. I think we must accept that Mormon literature has a narrow audience, and that each work will belong to a literary genre with an even narrower audience. That doesn't mean we cannot produce deeply moving literature. But when we do produce such literature, we must understand that only a few will have the intersection of protocols necessary to partake in that experience -- even among the members of the church. > But I've gone on long enough--did anybody read the whole post? Of course. -- Terry Jeffress - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jason Steed" Subject: Re: [AML] What Can AML-List Do for Me? Date: 08 Jul 2000 15:35:34 PDT >Please forgive my lack of education or sophistication or whatever you >choose >to call it. Could someone please explain to me what this means? > >D. Michael Martindale wrote: > > > If people won't buy literary writing, then publishers won't publish it > > and authors can't sell it. > [snip] > >In my mind anything that has to do with what people read or write could be >considered literature, according to this definition. Maybe I'm too simple >to >understand the deeper meaning of the word. Just because something doesn't >suit my literary taste, doesn't mean it is not literature. One writer's >meat >is another writer's poison. > [snip] > >I am an eclectic reader, I enjoy everything from Peanuts and Dr. Seuss to >Aristotle and Mark Twain. To me it's all literary. You have a very 'postmodern' outlook, then (and I tend to agree). But the 'modern' usage of "literary" is still very much in effect--and the 'modern' definition of the word tends to be much more elitist than yours. For the modernist (and for many, still), "literary" refers to the "great works" of literature only--not to the "lower" forms of literature (like "genre fiction" or Peanuts, or most other popular forms/modes/genres). This is the way, I think, that the term is being tossed around on the list (by myself included, but only because I'm playing along with the term's general use). But, again, the 'postmodernist' tends to break down these hierarchies, and to avoid privileging one work over another--so that Peanuts can be seen as every bit as "literary" as Aristotle. As mentioned, I tend to agree with this mindset, but I've been using the 'modern' definition of "literary" because that is the definition that the masses (including those agents you mention, and the publishing world in general, I think) continue to use. When they say "literary," they don't mean Peanuts, or Danielle Steele. And yes, publishers still publish "literary" writing--of course they do. But it does not sell as well as more popular genres like romance or SF, or horror. It is my understanding that only about 1 in 10 books published by a large house like, say, Random House, will make money beyond simply covering the author's advance (that's 9/10 of the books that don't make any money!). But the sales from one book by Michael Crichton will be enough to finance the publication of all the others. The bestselling "literary" author is, relatively speaking, a rarity (John Updike, Jane Smiley, Toni Morrison--these are a few notables). I think Michael is exaggerating with his implication that no one buys literary fiction, but there is a thread of truth in that sentiment. Most of the money is in "genre" fiction, memoirs, and books on/by celebrities. Jason ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tony Markham Subject: Re: [AML] What Can AML-List Do for Me? Date: 08 Jul 2000 12:59:11 -0400 Ask not what your AML List can do for you, but what you can do for your AML List. There has been some talk lately about writing The Great Mormon Novel (tGMN) and it made me do a lot of thinking yesterday while I mowed the yard. This is always dangerous (thinking, not mowing--I use a non-motorized pushmower to minimize that other danger). I wish there was more talk about good writing. Greatness is overused. I can only think of a handful of great writers and while anyone would be hard-pressed to define exactly what constitutes great writing, time and perspective has elevated a few masters of the craft to its utmost peak. If you would aspire to greatness, you might see what traits the great writers have. Do they share traits? Can you emulate some of these traits? Again, some of us might want to focus on just writing a good novel instead of tGMN. But while pushing the mower, I came up with four names and wondered what these writers had in common to elevate them to greatness: Shakespeare Milton Yeats Faulkner About Shakespeare, so little is known that he sort of has to be put aside. Too bad. But the other three had some interesting commonalities. Two in particular stood out because they are seemingly opposite traits that each writer held simultaneously: 1) the ability to disassociate from the "real" world and enter into visionary trances and 2) the ability to shape the images or visions from these trance-like states into meticulously crafted language, re-writing and re-writing and re-writing until their initial inspiration had achieved a high linguistic gloss. While composing Paradise Lost, Milton would wake up and dictate the day's writing to his daughters, claiming that his muse, Urania, had given him the material. But then he would shape it into careful blank verse, doting on each syllable for nuances of sound and meaning. Of course this only came after fifty-nine years of living. Decades of preparatory writing, learning and mastering the forms of poetry (odes, sonnets, rhyme, scansion, you-name-it). Oh, and going blind. Yeats, again, spent decades mastering his craft. He was a fair-to-middling poet, your average Irish rhymer, up until his later years when he took up with an odd group of people--the Theosophists. They taught him a lot of arcane wizard mumbo-jumbo. He wore colorful robes and practiced incantations, real Harry Potter stuff. And his writing! He would go into these trance-states, dictate material to his wife, wake up and say, "What'd I say?" She'd read it back and then he would work on it, craft it, polish it, and out comes "The Second Coming" "Leda and the Swan" "Among School Children" and "Sailing to Byzantium." Truly great material, not at all like what he'd been writing the first forty-odd years. And Faulkner. Where did he dissassociate to? Out in a cornfield, after it had been turned to sour mash and distilled. Yeah, he locked himself away from his publishers and the critics (and his wife and children) with nothing but pen and paper--and gallons of whiskey. Then put himself into a drunken stupor for the initial blaze of creativity. Then came the meticulous editing. I did my doctorate under Frederic Barthelme at the Center for Writers at USM. Which doesn't mean anything here except that we were privy to Faulkner's manuscripts at the special collections a few miles up the road at Oxford, Mississippi. One of our assignments was to trace a single passage from first draft to first edition. The man edited! And again, success didn't come early. Only after decades of preparation. Another odd little commonality--these were all men. Are we more apt to lose our (rational) minds than women? Are we gents more prone to let go of will and surrender our volition to visions? Not to get Barbara H. after me with a sharpened pencil, but, as I pushed my little mower around and around in an ever-constricting gyre, I wondered: Could this ability to let go and allow the spirit (of whatever) to possess us, possibly, have anything to do with our being allowed to exercise our priesthood while the women are disallowed from exercising theirs? Luckily all I had to do was ask my wife and she told me no. TGMN will likely be visionary, and written by someone who knows a thing or two about metrical language. Not that you (whoever) shouldn't give it a shot. A person's reach should always exceed their grasp. It's called striving for perfection. Tony - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jason Steed" Subject: Re: [AML] Genre Date: 08 Jul 2000 15:13:29 PDT >Jason, I agree with you in the main (and I read the >entire post). > >I use the term "boundaries" for genre writing rather >than "limitations" the same way we say short people >are "vertically challenged." Genre writers shouldn't >feel limited, although there are boundaries that guide >them. I think that's a worthwhile distinction. I suppose I can see the psychological point behind this. >And regarding Thurber, he's an enigma to me. Some of >his writing is not humorous and every bit as good as, >say, Truman Capote, and qualifies as plain old >literary writing. Yes, I do think Thurber might qualify, at times, as more than "merely" a humorist--certainly more than Perelman. His short stories like "The Catbird Seat" and "The Secret Life of Walter Mitty," while humorous, are certainly Twain-like in their "literary" value. I don't know much about Capote either... Jason ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jason Steed" Subject: Re: [AML] Genre Date: 08 Jul 2000 15:57:57 PDT > >(It is important to point out that ALL writing is of a genre, even though >we > >most often use the term perjoratively, as in "genre fiction," the > >implication being that this is not wholly, solidly "fiction," but some > >inferior subset.) > >I don't use the term pejoratively at all. In fact, I tend to use the terms >"mainstream" or "literary" as insults. That's fine. But it doesn't change the fact that the _general_ use of the terms is a reversal of _your_ use of them. I'm not sure, though, why you would WANT to be insulted by being called "literary" or "mainstream." It seems that if you can write a romance that can also be called these things, you have broadened your audience and possibly increased your sales... > >Just today we were having a discussion on a romance writers' list about why >so many of us don't enjoy what Scott Card calls "li-fi." One answer that >came up is that it is often self-conscious: the writer uses style, not to >tell a story, but to call attention to himself. The style says, "Look at >this! Watch me! Watch me!" like an annoying child who has learned to >jump >off the sofa onto his dad's belly. The other reason is that literary >fiction so often stops telling the story to wander off and do something >else, perhaps to impress the reader with the author's deep philosophical >musings. Those of us who prefer genre fiction are those who care more >about >story than about literary flourishes. If the writer is truly using "flourishes" or gimmicks, then the "literary" reader is going to have just as big a problem with them as you do. But too often there are things in "literary" fiction that are dismissed by the reader as "tap-dancing on the page," when in fact there is something significant occurring. For the "literary" reader, this is the appeal of "literary" fiction (over "genre" fiction): that all is not on the surface; often, to really understand and appreciate what the author is doing, it takes a great deal of effort. And to suggest that "genre" fiction is more concerned about story, or that the readers of "genre" fiction care more for story, than the readers/writers of "literary" fiction is unwarranted and unsupportable. The story is everything, for all kinds of fiction (that, after all, is what "fiction" is--a _story_). But different stories appeal to different writers/readers... > > > My question is, for those who DO write what might be > >classifiable as "genre fiction": How DO you toe the line and make what >you > >write "new" and "original" while maintaining those elements necessary to >the > >genre? It seems to me that this is a greater challenge for "genre" >writers > >than for "mainstream" blokes like myself. > >When I first started reading romance novels a few years ago, I was amazed, >as I still am, at the wide variety of styles and stories that are possible >with a genre that definitely must meet certain expectations. Basically, >the >expections are simple: man-woman-love-happiness. How the happiness is >arrived at, what kinds of people the man and woman are, when and how they >live, what kinds of experiences they go through, all of these are subject >to >great variety. (Even the man-woman thing has been occasionally altered, >but >gay love stories don't sell very well.) > >There are many sub-genres within the genre, and many different lines whose >editors are looking for different kinds of stories. The only limitation >you >have as a romance writer is that you CANNOT end it with something like, >"She >screamed as the ship exploded out in the bay. She knew that he had >sacrificed himself to save her. Even though bloody bits of him were now >scattered across the waters, she would always be comforted by the knowledge >that he had loved her enough to give his own life to destroy the brutal >pirates." > >NOT! A romance hero worth his salt will not only blow up the pirate ship, >but recover the stolen treasure, clear himself of the trumped-up charges >against him, deliver the medication in time to save the heroine's dying >brother, and then kiss her until her toes curl. I agree with you that every genre consists of multiple sub-genres and variations of that genre. But then you go on to provide a sample ending to a story that supports what I was saying in my earlier post (that "genre" fiction is subject to cliche and formula). _Because_ a "romance hero worth his salt" will do all these things, and because the reader of romance knows this, the romance novel is susceptible to predictability (arguably moreso than "literary" fiction, though certainly the latter can also be predictable). >And please don't blather on >about "reality." If we're in the mood for reality, we can read li-fi. >When >we're in the mood for what this genre gives us, we read romance. Reality, >IMHO, is highly overrated as a necessary component of a satisfying story. I won't blather on about "reality." What IS "reality"? Certainly there are MANY "literary" fictions that are not what we conventionally think of as "realistic"--indeed, there are many "literary" fictions that are decidedly romantic. (Some literary theorists believe, in fact, that romance plays a subtle, underlying role in almost all American fiction, the American world view being itself somewhat romantic.) I, personally, don't think that the principle complaint about "genre" fiction is that it isn't "realistic"--I think, for what it's worth, that every fiction constructs its own "reality," and the only "reality" it must adhere to is the one it has constructed. As I've said, I think the major complaint about "genre" fiction is that it too often is repetitive, formulaic, predictable, cliche. Not ALL of it is like this, of course. But much of it is _susceptible_ to these things... Jason ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Genre Date: 08 Jul 2000 15:03:37 -0600 Edgar Snow wrote: > I would like to see a discussion of Mormon humor and > other popular Mormon literature genres by critics who > understand the boundaries of these genres and who can > write about whether they work within those boundaries > (not "limitations"). Genre literature should be viewed > the way poetry is viewed with respect to its own > conventions of meter, rhyme, etc. An Elizabethan > sonnet should not be criticized for not being free > verse. Rachel, I think this is what you are asking > for. Only by appreciating successful works within > those boundaries will anyone know if they have been > transended. LDS literature, being somewhat fledgling, has a great opportunity here, and since we like to flatter ourselves that we are movers and shakers within LDS literature, we can make it happen. Unlike the mainstream literary community, we don't have to let our literature become ghettoized into genres. We can give all genres the respect they deserve, and avoid the class distinctions that developed among the _New Yorker_ crowd. Science fiction is an excellent example of this both happening and not happening. Even though a lot of remarkable stuff has been written in science fiction, it is looked down upon by literary types as if it still consisted solely of 1930s pulp magazines. English departments turn their nose up at it. No science fiction book will ever win a Pulitzer Prize, as I believe Thom said. But that's in America. In England, science fiction has had a venerable history, beginning with the well-respected H.G. Wells. It has always been a part of mainstream literature and never been ghettoized into a genre that only "male adolescents of arrested development" read--presumably. Let's follow the British model for LDS literature, shall we? -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rachel Ann Nunes" Subject: Re: [AML] THAYER, _Summer Fire_ Date: 09 Jul 2000 01:12:10 -0600 So is it Summer Fire or Summerfire? There seems to be a discrepancy. [MOD: Sorry, I don't know the answer to this one.] Neal said: >Many list subscribers are probably too >young to remember what life was like for many young men along the Wasatch Front >in the 1960's. Yes, guilty as charged. And this would possibly make a big difference in my view of Thayer's novel. Very interesting in _Summerfire_ is how one of the two cousins sent to the ranch did come out of the experience a stronger, better person. This made a great contrast with the other who ended up wasting his wages in a brothel. I didn't object to this outcome or the journey at all, but the apparent ease with which they were flung into the situation in the first place. It wasn't that the children were sent away to work, or where they were sent (this for Alan who as I type is putting up wire fences and breaking horses), but that they were sent away with no apparent moral guidance. Maybe this was the way things were done back then, but in today's world that just doesn't work. Obviously, it didn't work for one of the boys in Thayer's story, either. More on this book in a minute, but first a little digression. There once was a boy who was a junior in high school. A pretty girl moved into his ward, and they started dating. She was inactive, but began coming to church. So far, so good. Then he started skipping class and his grades plummeted. His parents would find him at her house in her room with the door shut. Her mother laughed and said to leave them alone, that nothing was going on. She trusted them. But everything about him--his manners, his speech, his spirituality--seemed to be eroding. The boy's mother told me that she felt as though he were in the middle of a lake drowning and there was nothing they could do but watch him sink. After serious thought and prayer, the boy's parents arrived one morning (when their son was supposed to be in school) at the girlfriend's house with a packed suitcase. They put him in the car, and it wasn't until an hour into their drive that they informed him that he would be living with his aunt and uncle for the rest of the year. He cried, they cried. He begged to return home. They said no. It was the hardest thing they ever had to do, sending him away. But away from home, he learned a lot about life and growing up. He came home six months later, spent his final year in school, and then served a mission. He has grown in a fine young man (although it's just a coincidence that my youngest son bears the same name). I always admired his parents for acting, for doing something to save him before it was too late. Of course, even though his parents weren't around for those six months and he was facing many new situations, he still had guidance from his relatives. I wonder what might have happened if he hadn't received that guidance. So here I am thinking of the above event while reading Thayer's story. As an admittedly protective mother, I couldn't imagine leaving my son in such a position. The father in the story didn't evoke my admiration. Yes, the boy off to pick pineapples in Hawaii or to mine diamonds in Timbuktu, but make sure he has some sort of moral supervision as well, especially if the child is already wavering. For me, it shouldn't be a sink or swim issue--not at sixteen. If the father had done more to ensure their safety at the first (and still failed), the novel would have had a greater impact on me. I suppose Thayer could have been making a statement about the father's vigilance. If Thayer is on this list, I would be interested to know his reasoning on this point since it made it difficult for me to look objectively on the rest. Maybe that was simply the way things were done back then. Can any of you who were teens during the 1960's add your comments? I am pleased to see that others read and enjoyed the book. And reading Neal's comments certainly shed some light on the issue. (Now if someone could satisfactorily explain the woman's motives for leaving her children in Card's _Saints._ Or was it _Woman of Destiny?_ Am I crazy or was the novel published under two different titles?) [MOD: Yes, the book was published under two separate titles. As I recall the story, Card's original preferred title was _Saints_, but the original publisher--who lacked confidence in the book--tried to market it as a romance and called it _A Woman of Destiny_. Ultimately, Card got back the rights to the novel and republished it with another publisher under his preferred- title.] Rachel ________________________________ Rachel Ann Nunes Author of the best-selling novel To Love and to Promise E-mail: rachel@ranunes.com Web page: http://www.ranunes.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jim and Laurel Brady" Subject: Re: [AML] Reading Group (was: Andrew's Poll) Date: 09 Jul 2000 00:39:14 -0600 But I wonder--the list has gained a large > number of new members recently; is there once again an interest in reading > and discussing Mormon lit online? I know I would be interested. What say > ye all? > > Melissa Proffitt Actually, there are a couple existing but currently with low volume--maybe they just need an injections of new reading enthusiasts. At egroups there is LDSReaders and LDSpop (not just books, also supposedly covers music, etc.) LDSWriters and UtahWriters. There are probably more, but those are the only ones I know of. Laurel Brady - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Margaret Young Subject: Re: [AML] _I Am Jane_ Date: 10 Jul 2000 09:53:16 -0600 Oops. I'm afraid we will not be able to extend. Several cast members could not get off work. Sorry. But we will be presenting it in October as part of a U of U symposium. Margaret Young wrote: > Because we've had capacity crowds, we are extending _I Am Jane_ one > night--into Tuesday, July 11. So that's the last opportunity to see it > unless you live in Chicago. Thanks to the list members who've come. It > really means a lot to see you there. > > - > AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature > http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kenny Kemp" Subject: [AML] THAYER, _Summer Fire_ Date: 10 Jul 2000 11:23:12 -0700 Re: Neal Kramer's comments about Summer Fire. I couldn't agree more. Thayer is a superb storyteller and although I was not raised in Utah and never spent the summer on a farm or a ranch (I was busy surfing in southern California), I related intensely to the young man's test of character and faith. Although I don't believe this is Thayer's finest work (that honor, IMHO, goes to the marvelous story collection *Under the Cottonwoods* which absolutely captivated me nearly twenty years ago, and continues to do so today), it resonates with the full power of a youth's striving toward manhood, something that no other LDS author seems to have captured - IMHO. On another note, Chaim Potok once said to me that the Mormon culture was not yet a *mature* culture because it had not yet learned to laugh at itself. We take ourselves sooooo seriously, mostly because we (or many of us, at least) believe we have some special place in God's plan and are therefore more directly linked to Him, and, by extension, have an inside track to what's right and what's best and even what kind of divinity candy Heavenly Mother serves in her cosmic kitchen. That's why simple cultural traditions quickly get cemented into the Will of the Lord. I believe that when we learn to laugh at ourselves, it is just a chuckle away from crying for ourselves, and then we can finally begin to look clearly at ourselves in the mirror. And we won't have crossover potential for our art until we present an absolutely truthful (i.e., reality-based) account of ourselves. Potok does this brilliantly in his novels. He loves the Jewish people and their tradition, and yet he looks at them clearly and honestly and pulls no punches. *My Name is Asher Lev* is the epitome of this, and perhaps a template for any Mormon who wishes to know how to go about writing a novel that is both truthful and affirming. The number one ingredient: courage, because that writer is bound to be castigated for airing so-called dirty laundry in public. But tell me, where else can we air laundry? It will happen, though, because I believe that all truth is circumscribed by the Gospel. That includes the dirty, the unhallowed, and the embarrassing. These concepts are the valleys of darkness and despair a writer must take his reader through for the ending (hopefully life-affirming) to have any resonance and power. Storytelling is a roller-coaster ride, not a merry-go-round. But most LDS writers seem content to tell the same story over and over again, with the same predictable characters, plot points, and hackneyed tresolutions. That's why our literature stretches at being called such. IMHO, of course. Kenny Kemp President ALTA FILMS & PRESS "films and books that entertain, enlighten and inspire." Email: kenny@alta-films.com Web: www.alta-films.com ******************* - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Margaret Young Subject: Re: [AML] YOUNG, _I Am Jane_ Date: 10 Jul 2000 09:59:58 -0600 Thanks so much for this, Scott. It was wonderful to meet your wife after the show. Actually, there is at least one more re-write waiting for me to do before I'll call this script "finished," but we do have a remarkable cast. Not every actor is equal in talent, but most are truly gifted. It has been mostly a joy to work on this show. At least I'm sure that's how I'll remember it after I recover. "J. Scott Bronson" wrote: > Just got back from seeing "I Am Jane." Had an enjoyable time. Really > liked Margaret's script. Also enjoyed some of the performances. Really > some remarkable things about this show. I recommend it to those of you > in the Utah County area. You have two more chances (possibly three, if > they extend to Tuesday night) to see it. I have spent a number of years > participating in various critique groups and have always felt > complimented when one of my peers will say something like, "If I were > writing this I would have blah, blah, blah." Those kinds of comments > mean that the person felt strongly enough about the material to want to > make it their own somehow. Well, I sat in the Villa Theater tonight > wishing that I could have been in "I Am Jane." Or wishing that I had > directed it. Or that I had written it. > > J. Scott Bronson--The Scotted Line > "World peace begins in my home" > -------------------------------------------------------- > We are not the acolytes of an abstruse god. > We are here to entertain--Keith Lockhart > > - > AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature > http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eileen Subject: [AML] Re: PERRY, _Tathea_ Date: 10 Jul 2000 10:41:37 -0600 > when I began the flight across the desert with her. Should I keep > reading to find the bits and pieces of the story that tell what > happened to her, or will the things that happen to her just be vehicles > for more philosophizing? > > -Beth Hatch To be candid there is more philosophy, but you also will find out what happens to Tathea. I will note that one of the reasons I enjoyed this book so much is because of the philosophy. I enjoyed reading C.S. Lewis for the same reason. If you do not like to read philosophy, but are looking strictly for an action story this will not be for you. There is action involved though and much does happen to Tathea, but there is philosophy/scripture as well. Eileen eileens99@bigplanet.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eileen Subject: Re: [AML] _I Am Jane_ Date: 10 Jul 2000 10:45:01 -0600 > Because we've had capacity crowds, we are extending _I Am Jane_ one > night--into Tuesday, July 11. So that's the last opportunity to see it > unless you live in Chicago. Thanks to the list members who've come. It > really means a lot to see you there. [MOD: Please note Margaret's later correction that this extension will not be able to happen.] I am very disappointed that my schedule this weekend and week have been full and I was unable to rearrange it to see this play. Even the extension to Tuesday is unable to facilitate my attendance. I am pleased you are playing to capacity crowds and only with I could be one among the crowd. Congratulations! Eileen eileens99@bigplanet.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sharlee Glenn" Subject: Re: [AML] What Can AML-List Do for Me? Date: 10 Jul 2000 13:35:36 -0600 Tony Markham wrote: >But while pushing the mower, I came up with four > names and wondered what these writers had in common >to elevate them to greatness: > Shakespeare > Milton > Yeats > Faulkner (snip) > Another odd little commonality--these were all men. Are we more apt to > lose our (rational) minds than women? Are we gents more prone to let go > of will and surrender our volition to visions? Whoa! That's quite a jump! So the four names you came up with while mowing the lawn happened to be men. That hardly means that only men have produced great literature (which is what the posing of those questions suggests). While washing the dishes this morning, I came up with four names and wondered what these writers had in common to elevate them to greatness: George Eliot Virginia Woolf Flannery O'Connor Toni Morrison :-) Sharlee Glenn glennsj@inet-1.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sharlee Glenn" Subject: Re: [AML] THAYER, _Summer Fire_ Date: 10 Jul 2000 13:48:12 -0600 Rachel Ann Nunes asked: > So is it Summer Fire or Summerfire? There seems to be a discrepancy. > > [MOD: Sorry, I don't know the answer to this one.] It was published by Orion Books in 1983 as _Summer Fire_. I believe it was later picked up by Signature (?) and the title may have been changed then to _Summerfire_. Does anyone know for sure? Sharlee Glenn glennsj@inet-1.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Melissa Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] PERRY, _Tathea_ Date: 10 Jul 2000 13:57:54 -0600 On Fri, 07 Jul 2000 17:12:44 -0600, Eileen wrote: >I feel, after having read Melissa's well-reasoned review and Darlene's >relief that Melissa agreed with her, almost declasse for having = thoroughly >enjoyed _Tathea_. I read it through once and within a week started it = again. >It was thought provoking for me and the essence of how I felt when = reading >lingers still almost a year later. I don't think you should feel bad about it any more than I feel bad about not liking Levi Peterson's works. My review covers what I think, from = *my* perspective as a reader, are flaws in the novel. It doesn't say = "therefore no one should ever read this book and if you like it you're a moron." Absolutely not. It sounds more like you're part of Perry's intended audience for the book (which I don't think I am). >P.S: I have a question about the positioning of books in Barnes & Noble = for >instance or any other bookstore for that matter, who makes that = decision? >The Barnes & Noble near my home has _Tathea_ placed in the Mystery = Section. >I have to say I don't think it even comes close to that genre. Sounds like someone was playing on Perry's success as a mystery writer to boost sales of _Tathea_. After all, dividing books into genres in stores= is mainly about helping customers find books they're most likely to buy. I = was reading somewhere online that the main reason people buy one book rather than another is the author's name--hence printing mass market books where the author's name is in much larger print than the title, and putting _Tathea_ with Anne Perry's other books rather than in the SF section. Melissa Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] Mormon Thesis Database Date: 10 Jul 2000 15:05:47 -0700 I got a letter from BYU's copyright management office asking permission to put my master's thesis on an electronic database of all theses on topics associated with Mormonism. My thesis is a novella, so apparently they're including creative works. This could be a great resource for us. Does anyone else know anything about this? I will keep you posted if I hear anything more. The letter says the database will be available to a bunch of BYU and Church departments and to the general public through qualifying institutions. Chris Bigelow * * * * * * Read my novella about Mormon missionaries at http://www1.mightywords.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=EB00016373. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] Great Mormon Novel Date: 10 Jul 2000 15:19:48 -0700 Well, I've lost the day to e-mail, so I may as well add this to the pile: There's a fascinating review in the July 3rd New Yorker about the Great Gatsby (an earlier manuscript of the novel has been published). I thought the following description was interesting of why what I always thought was an overrated novel is considered perhaps the great American novel of the 20th century: "Short, easy to read, filled with symbols and subtexts and allusions, and also beautiful, 'Gatsby' is without doubt the most teachable American novel. In a half century of decreasing attention spans and increasing moral hunger, there can hardly be higher praise." Sounds like some good attritubes to keep in mind as we try to write our own great Mormon novels. Chris Bigelow * * * * * * Read my novella about Mormon missionaries at http://www1.mightywords.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=EB00016373. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] First Novel Drafts Date: 10 Jul 2000 15:52:05 -0700 I am currently subjecting my online writers groups to a first novel draft that I haven't even reread myself yet, though I wouldn't waste their time if it wasn't a solid start upon which I will hopefully craft a REAL novel, impacted in no small degree by their responses. I'm amazed at how difficult it is to write a novel. Just to get this far into the first draft (and I'm within about 50 pages of "finishing" it) I've had to just keep willfully writing ahead, not letting myself get discouraged by basic flaws that are already apparent or by sections that I know are too bareboned or too overloaded with irrelevant details that I've heaped on because hey, I'm writing a NOVEL, and it needs to be LONG, and I'll feel better if I can get FOUR pages done before I flip over to e-mail--yet I don't want to decide which scene comes after this one. Anyway, for the first time, I am now really psyching myself up to actually REWRITE a novel draft. I am carefully printing out and annotating the comments I get from my critique groups, and I have a 6-inch stack of notes and clippings of my own that somehow I need to sort and incorporate, and I've even already gone downstairs to my basement library and culled all the titles I need to review, skim, or read as background for my rewrite (about 15 titles, from "Basics of Feng Shui" to the biography of Lorenzo Snow). It seems to me that although the rewrite will be a HUGE task, it will be easier than the first draft because at least there's a framework to flesh in. This far into the first draft, I still believe in the story, which is amazing and give me the fortitude to keep working on it. I wrote one novella previously, but I never reread that one all the way through either. I have a file drawer full of notes and a bookshelf full of research titles for that novella too, but somehow I didn't have the heart to rewrite it after I turned it in as my BYU master's thesis (the committee pretty much accepted it except for making me cut some sexually explicit parts, so I didn't have to do any rewriting). I still intend to go back to that novella and rewrite it into a novel unless I lose interest in writing fiction after this current project (which I sometimes hope I will--but I feel too depressed about myself if I try to let it go). And besides, I wonder if I can pull off a good rewrite. I was heartened by the following quote from the New Yorker's July 3rd review of the earlier version of Great Gatsby that has been published: "When, in 1950, Edmund Wilson examined an early text of 'Madame Bovary,' he claimed to be excited by its very flatness, and said that it gave him a higher opinion of Flaubert 'to see him bringing these paragraphs to life, turning on the music and color.'" I've heard it said that writing is really REwriting, and I believe it, though I have yet to practice it much with my own fiction. I've already cut the first 18,000 words of this present novel draft, which didn't hurt so much because I was still left holding 70,000 words, although many of those could end up crumbling into dust too. And now it's looking like I may need to go back and salvage 7,000 to 9,000 words of that cut part and rewrite it. I wish I could just feed my notes and the first draft into a computer and have the rewriting done that way, but on the other hand if I can put another layer of creativity onto the skeleton, I might actually get some where. Writing a first draft is hard enough--why can't that be good enough? This is my fun hobby, right? Chris Bigelow (shirk, shirk, shirk) * * * * * * Read my novella about Mormon missionaries at http://www1.mightywords.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=EB00016373. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Neal Kramer Subject: Re: [AML] THAYER, _Summer Fire_ Date: 10 Jul 2000 16:46:30 -0600 Rachel asked some other questions about _Summer Fire_ that deserve to be addressed. >Very interesting in _Summerfire_ is how one of the two cousins sent to the >ranch did come out of the experience a stronger, better person. This made a >great contrast with the other who ended up wasting his wages in a brothel. I >didn't object to this outcome or the journey at all, but the apparent ease >with which they were flung into the situation in the first place. It wasn't >that the children were sent away to work, or where they were sent (this for >Alan who as I type is putting up wire fences and breaking horses), but that >they were sent away with no apparent moral guidance. Maybe this was the way >things were done back then, but in today's world that just doesn't work. >Obviously, it didn't work for one of the boys in Thayer's story, either. Thayer goes to considerable lengths at the beginning of the novel to explain the difference in the upbringing of his two characters. The one cousin has been allowed to slip through his life, with two parents at home always bailing him out before he has to face any consequences for his actions. Owen, the hero, has been raised by his widowed motherr and has never really known his father. His male role models have been his bishop and his seminary teacher. Both boys "know" what is right. Thayer, I think, wants us to consider whether the way we raise our children, or protect them, allows them to develop the inner strength necessary to make correct decisions when we're no longer around. The summer on the ranch is supposed to be a time for both boys to make independently correct decisions. But not all people always make the right decision. Even the ones who have been carefully shepherded by their parents. By having Owen, who has privately sought out the Lord--who has worked to develop a kind of spiritual maturity--make the right decisions, Thayer suggests that children properly taught will make good choices when faced with big challenges. One reason to have the other boy fail is to have us take a look at the reasons he didn't have any spiritual "backbone" and compare him to Owen. (I keep writing other boy because I'm too lazy to look his name up in the book!) That idea scares me, because I still want to believe that I can train my kids well enough that they won't really have to make these decisions without just doing what I tell them. But the truth is that all LDS youth have to learn to rely on the strength of their own testimonies and not someone else's, even a parent's. Thayer shows us how hard it is to grow up and to develop a strong testimony. From my male perspective, I can't think of another writer who has told me more about the challenges young men face in our culture--and who has more hope that the gospel is the blueprint for raising righteous young men. Neal Kramer - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] What Can AML-List Do for Me? Date: 11 Jul 2000 00:40:54 -0600 Sam Payne wrote: > It seems to me that while using art as a > tool to *commune* with people (not necessarily to transcend them) may not > get the Great Mormon Novel written, it still could be a pretty pure place to > be coming from. Is that thinking too small? I think that the opposite is true. Creating art that resonates with people is a much more charitable act than the self-serving urge to create art that is applauded by the elite, but inaccessible to people generally. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] First Novel Drafts Date: 11 Jul 2000 02:48:43 -0600 Christopher Bigelow wrote: > I'm amazed at how difficult it is to write a novel. Just to get this far into the first draft (and > I'm within about 50 pages of "finishing" it) I've had to just keep willfully writing ahead, not > letting myself get discouraged by basic flaws that are already apparent or by sections that I know > are too bareboned or too overloaded with irrelevant details that I've heaped on... This is the process recommended by many professional authors. When writing the first draft, just _write_. Let your creativity flow. Tell the editor in your head to shut the holy heck up. Then when you've finished, you put the editor hat on, and tell the creative side of your brain to shut up. You craft each chapter, paragraph, sentence, word, even syllable, into as perfect as form as you can. And the editor needs to mercilessly cut that darling prose which it knows should go, no matter how much the creative side loves it. Creating and editing are two antithetical processes. Any time they are mixed together, disaster results. At best, the author stumbles his way through the first draft, agonizing over each word, stopping and starting fitfully, never enjoying the heady pleasure of creative flow. At worst, nothing happens. Mixing the two processes is the cause of writer's block. > I wrote one novella previously, but I never reread that one all the way through either....somehow > I didn't have the heart to rewrite it after I turned it in as my BYU master's thesis (the committee > pretty much accepted it except for making me cut some sexually explicit parts, so I didn't have to > do any rewriting). Yuck! No one ever sets eyes on my writing until I've read it through at least once, with at least a night in between writing and reading. (Except for things like this message, which gets read once right after writing it--but it still gets read.) The illusion that I'm a good writer would immediately disappear if I didn't scrupulously follow this policy. It's already a fragile illusion as it is. > And besides, I wonder if I can pull off a good rewrite. You can. If there's a part of writing that's a craft that can be learned, it's rewriting. > I've heard it said that writing is really REwriting, and I believe it, though I have yet to > practice it much with my own fiction. According to the movie, Mozart composed everything in his head, and merely dictated a final draft when he set pen to paper. But I'll bet most accomplished artists rewrite the heck out of their work. It's like anything else: ballet, acrobatics, figure skating, quarterbacking: the masters make it look effortless, but behind the effortless perfection came endless hours of "rewriting": practicing and practicing until perfection was achieved. > Writing a first draft is hard enough--why can't that be good enough? Then everyone would write, and you could never stand out from the crowd. > This is my fun hobby, right? Fun hobby? You could get away without rewriting for just a fun hobby. I'll bet you're striving for a professional's mastery, based on some passion deep inside you, or you wouldn't care enough to keep working at it. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Alan Mitchell" Subject: Re: [AML] THAYER, _Summer Fire_ Date: 11 Jul 2000 03:53:12 -0600 Rachel Ann Nunes wrote: It wasn't >that the children were sent away to work, or where they were sent (this for >Alan who as I type is putting up wire fences and breaking horses), but that >they were sent away with no apparent moral guidance. How did Rachel know that we're putting up fence today? She must be a prophetess! Okay Rachel, can you guess which prominent AML member and list participant is out helping and bringing one of his children to help in the moral guidance thing? Alan Mitchell - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott Duvall Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Thesis Database Date: 11 Jul 2000 08:57:51 -0600 Chris: This project emanates from the BYU Library. We have identified approximately 700 Master's theses written at BYU over the years that deal with Mormonism in some way. These theses will be digitized and made available on the library's web site. We are considering bids for outsourcing right now and we anticipate this collection being available in about one year. Scott Duvall Assistant University Librarian for Special Collections Harold B. Lee Library Brigham Young University - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: [AML] LDS Humor (was THAYER, _Summer Fire_) Date: 11 Jul 2000 02:26:51 -0600 Kenny Kemp wrote: > On another note, Chaim Potok once said to me that the Mormon culture was not > yet a *mature* culture because it had not yet learned to laugh at itself. But that seems to be changing. Ed Snow, Rober Kirby, Pat Bagley, for example. By the way, I ran across a transcript of an online chat session with Kirby which touches a little on this topic at: http://www.tribtalk.com/transcripts/kirby1.htm. I also ran across several LDS humor websites. I do not vouch for the quality of any of the humor... http://www.mormons.org/humor/index.htm http://www.lds.npl.com/dir/LDS_Humor/ http://lds.about.com/religion/lds/msub4.htm?once=true& http://jeider.tripod.com/joke.htm http://www.of-worth.com/ea/humor.htm I don't think our attempts to appear perfect to the world will hold out much longer. We're getting too well known, and have too many detractors who love to point out our warts. With the Internet, all that information is available with a few mouse clicks. I understand the urge we've had as a culture to appear perfect after the harrowing history we endured. But, like Potok said, growing beyond that is a sign of maturity. It's also a necessity: our perfection is pure myth, so we really ought to face up to it. Trying to deny it only makes us look deceptive. The Gospel will hold its own even in the midst of our imperfection. I also think the honest approach will be more effective in the long run. Which group of people would you rather join? Relentlessly perfect people, or people who associate together to help each other improve? Which kind of prophet could you believe in more? One whose adherents claim is perfect, but who obviously makes mistakes, or one who struggles to perfect his prophetic mantel the same way every other human being struggles to perfect his vocation, therefore no need arises to rationalize his mistakes? Humor can help all of us face up to the reality of life within the Gospel, after a long-standing (and wearying) habit of maintaining the illusion of perfection. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: Re: [AML] First Novel Drafts Date: 11 Jul 2000 12:09:56 -0500 D. Michael Martindale wrote: >This is the process recommended by many professional authors. When >writing the first draft, just _write_. Let your creativity flow. Tell >the editor in your head to shut the holy heck up. This is true, I think, of many of the most productive writers. It doesn't work for everyone, though. Lloyd Alexander and Patricia McKillip are two examples of writers who compose carefully on a word-by-word and sentence-by-sentence level during their first draft process. As I understand it, the way they work, they can't really move on to the next scene until they're happy with the way the scene they're currently writing works. Of course, this doesn't mean they don't necessarily rewrite later on--and at least one friend of Patricia McKillip's commented once that because she works this way, she spends about half of each year in writer's block. But she's apparently found a way that (more or less) works for her, and I don't know that she would necessarily improve by trying a different strategy. I've long been interested in different writers' writing habits (including my own, though I'm not primarily a creative writer), and probably the most important thing I've found is that different strategies work for different writers. Some (like Scott Card) have to let the pot bubble for quite a while, then do the actual writing fairly quickly. From what I've read of his experiences writing, it seems that major rewrites, for him, typically consist of starting all over again--because for him, the key is finding the right starting-point. Sometimes a novel will require starting over several times to find that correct starting point, other times it won't. Other writers do more detailed outlining (I'm thinking of Dave Wolverton here, as one Mormon example). Others may "discover" their story as they write, and then have to rewrite backwards once they reach the end: Tolkien reported that much of this happened in his writing of _Lord of the Rings_, and if you look at his initial drafts (which have now been published in a 12-volume series by his son--thank you so much Christopher, I can imagine him saying from the other side of the veil, for showing my bad first drafts; but it's a boon to those with an interest in the writing process), you'll find that some of them are terrifying--terrifyingly bad*, though even in the first drafts there are still phrases and words that make it into his later versions. But he, too, started several times, before he finally found the conflict in his story. (He didn't have any idea that the Ring was going to be the center of the story when he wrote the first draft of the first chapter!) Once he found out where he was going, he still did a lot of revision--and a lot of revision while he was still forging ahead with the main story, as well as after it was completely written. Okay, sorry (get me started on Tolkien, and I have to be shut up by main force). But I think the main point is that a writer needs to find out what works for him or her. (I was going to take this post in a completely different direction--talking about how even though there seem to be different processes, some of the same things seem to happen in most good writers' processes, sometimes before the first draft, sometimes during the drafting, sometimes after the first draft--but I got sidetracked, so I'll let that go for now...) Jonathan Langford *Some examples of "terrifyingly bad" writing from Tolkien's early drafts, or at least writing that clearly changed from the earlier to the later drafts: For quite a long time, the main character of LOTR was going to be "Bingo" Baggins, not Frodo; Strider was a mysterious hobbit who "wore boots"; and Bilbo was originally going to leave Hobbiton because his money had run out. The very worst, though (in my opinion), is in the first draft of Bilbo's party speech, where the "Announcement" he builds up to is "Goodbye! I am going away after dinner. Also I am going to get married." Tolkien goes on to explain that this wasn't really the case, it was just that he had run out of money, then continues: "Then how could he get married? He was not going to just then--he merely said 'I am going to get married.' I cannot quite say why. It came suddenly into his head. Also he thought it was an event that might occur in the future--if he travelled again amongst other folk, or found a more rare and more beautiful race of hobbits somewhere. [!!!] Also it was a kind of explanation. Hobbits had a curious habit in their weddings. They kept it (always officially and very often actually) a dead secret for years who they were going to marry, even when they knew. Then they suddenly went out and got married and went off without an address for a week or two (or even longer). When Bilbo had disappeared this is what at first his neighbors thought. 'He has gone and got married. Now who can it be?--no one else has disappeared, as far as we know.' Even after a year they would have been less surprised if he had come back with a wife. For a long while some folk thought he was keeping one in hiding [!], and quite a legend about the poor Mrs Bilbo who was too ugly to be seen grew up for a while." Apparently, this seemed as unpromising a direction to Tolkien as it does to us, because after one more paragraph he abandoned this draft and started over. Thank goodness. jlangfor@pressenter.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ViKimball@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] YOUNG, _I Am Jane_ (Performances) Date: 11 Jul 2000 14:24:12 EDT In a message dated 7/11/00 9:29:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time, wwbrown@burgoyne.com writes: << I had a call from the author of SAND IN THEIR SHOES yesterday. (Does anyone remember it? I played in the band as a mere sophomore--Crawford Gates wrote the music). He is the one who is supporting Tim Slover in writing the play HANNCOCK COUNTY. He's taking IRREANTUM now, and he's impressed! He said he would start listening in on this list. Don Oscarson. I was so happy to hear from him. He told me that a group of Jews got together (like us) and said, "What can we do to change the world's opinion of Jews?" They got financial support (and he's one of those eager to help) and searched for the best novelist they could find. At the time it was Leon Uris. And they told him what they wanted, so he wrote EXODUS. So--I ask you--are our discussions of all this "novel business" or "artistic" business in vain? Absolutely not. >> Don Oscarson also wrote "City of Joseph," among other accomplishments. Is "I Am Jane" going to travel to other cities besides Chicago? Perhaps I should be asking Margaret that question, however. St. Louis might be a good place to bring it for a couple of nights. The Oscarsons are in St. Louis right now and he might be able to find a place for it to perform. Violet Kimball - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rachel Ann Nunes" Subject: Re: [AML] THAYER, _Summer Fire_ Date: 11 Jul 2000 12:17:28 -0600 Neal said: >That idea scares me, because I still want to believe that I can train my >kids well enough that they won't really have to make these decisions >without just doing what I tell them. But the truth is that all LDS youth >have to learn to rely on the strength of their own testimonies and not >someone else's, even a parent's. I agree with you there. It is very frightening. And if Doug Thayer's book can help parents understand how important it is to make kids take responsibility for their actions, and at the same time influence young men for the better, then my hat goes off to him. Rachel - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rachel Ann Nunes" Subject: Re: [AML] TARR, _The Gathering Storm_ /ADAMS, _Prodigal Journey_ Date: 11 Jul 2000 12:18:16 -0600 Jeff said: >All in all, I would have preferred a more temperate presentation, and I >will look forward to reading the second volume when it's published (larger >print pleeeze!). Thank you for your comments. I can see where you're coming from. I guess I imagined the world nearly falling apart before the book started, so the occurrences didn't seem far-fetched. However, I don't know if that's because of what was in the book, or my view of it. I also read the first draft of the novel, which sometimes makes a difference. About the larger print--I sure hope so! But unfortunately the publisher will decide. I think you'll really like Linda Adams's book, _Prodigal Journey_ (hope I got the title right). I previewed this novel for Cornerstone a month or two ago and very much enjoyed it. It's not so much about the Last Days as it is about a particular woman's journey in that time period. So Linda or Richard, can you tell us if that book is available yet? Rachel ________________________________ Rachel Ann Nunes Author of the best-selling novel To Love and to Promise E-mail: rachel@ranunes.com Web page: http://www.ranunes.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Margaret Young Subject: Re: [AML] YOUNG, _I Am Jane_ (Performances) Date: 11 Jul 2000 13:09:47 -0600 Thank YOU, Marilyn and Bill Brown, for your theater. Let me say that though I am thoroughly exhausted, the cast does indeed consider _Jane_ to be not a showpiece but a missionary tool. Our pre-cast meetings have been inspirational, with members referring to this production as "a mission." Though I will be shortly turning everything over to others, the joy of working with such consecrated people was wonderful. Nobody was reimbursed--including one cast member who flew himself up here from California (Marvin Perkins--and he does even better than Cosby, I agree with Marilyn). We set up a foundation to support _Jane_ and other works which will deal with racial issues in the Church. The foundation will likely do some monuments in the future. The Genesis Group already did a monument for Jane James, but we think Elijah Abel should have one too, as should the three slaves who were in the first pioneer company to enter Utah. You can contact me personally if you want to be involved with the One Fold Foundation. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ViKimball@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] First Novel Drafts Date: 11 Jul 2000 16:16:39 EDT In a message dated 7/11/00 9:21:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time, dmichael@wwno.com writes: << Tell the editor in your head to shut the holy heck up. >> Is this Mormonese? I think it's the first time I've ever heard this. Kinda cute and kinda Mormon. Violet - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] First Novel Drafts Date: 11 Jul 2000 13:58:42 -0600 "D. Michael Martindale" wrote: > > Christopher Bigelow wrote: > > > I'm amazed at how difficult it is to write a novel. Just to get this far into the first draft (and > > I'm within about 50 pages of "finishing" it) I've had to just keep willfully writing ahead, not > > letting myself get discouraged by basic flaws that are already apparent or by sections that I know > > are too bareboned or too overloaded with irrelevant details that I've heaped on... > > This is the process recommended by many professional authors. When > writing the first draft, just _write_. Let your creativity flow. Tell > the editor in your head to shut the holy heck up. This was the only way I ever finished my first novel. I just sat down and plugged through to the end, didn't edit -- not a stitch -- as I went along. When I finished, I set it aside for a couple weeks then took a grammar checker to it, found out I had this habit of using this kind of present tense: ("he was standing" there instead of "he stood there"). made those changes in a revision mode. I forgot to say that, about halfway through that process, my computer and all my backup diskettes were stolen. I had completed Chapter 17, or three-fourths of the book by then. I was devestated. So much so that I couldn't write my name for a month, let alone a novel. I had no copies so gues what I did. I stated over. From scratch. The second draft was better and that's the one I finally sold to Horizon in 1990. I've employed the same push-through technique on the book's two sequels. It's the only way, for me, to finish a work that long. -- Thom Duncan Read the further adventures of Moroni Smith, the LDS Indiana Jones! The long-awaited second episode in the Moroni Smith LDS adventure series, _Moroni Smith: In Search of the Gold Plates_ is now available as an e-book at the Zion's Fiction web page: http://www.zfiction.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Darlene Young Subject: Re: [AML] Re: PERRY, _Tathea_ Date: 11 Jul 2000 14:49:06 -0700 (PDT) Eileen says, "If you do not like to read philosophy, but are looking=20 strictly for an action story this will not be for you. There is action involved though and much does happen to Tathea, but there is=20 philosophy/scripture as well." Aaah, but that's just it. A really great writer can _incorporate_ a philosophy into a compelling story.=20 It all gets back to that old, worn writer's adage:=20 "Show, don't tell." I think Perry had some good ideas and, as Beth's experience revealed, the potential for a fascinating story that absorbs the reader from the beginning. But she loses momentum every time she pauses to sum up: "look what we are learning so far." And after awhile, we bog down in situation after situation which do not build on each other but rather illustrate the philosophy over and over again.=20 "Here's another example," she seems to be saying. =20 As I said before, the book may be a clever example of a treatise with a few fictional illustrations. But, reading it, I felt betrayed by the beginning and, yes, by its status as "Best Novel" into thinking that it was a good yarn, skillfully told. That it was not. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Darlene Young __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail =96 Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eileen Subject: Re: [AML] Re: PERRY, _Tathea_ Date: 11 Jul 2000 17:54:05 -0600 Darlene writes: > Aaah, but that's just it. A really great writer can > _incorporate_ a philosophy into a compelling story. > It all gets back to that old, worn writer's adage: > "Show, don't tell." I think Perry had some good ideas > and, as Beth's experience revealed, the potential for > a fascinating story that absorbs the reader from the > beginning. But she loses momentum every time she > pauses to sum up: "look what we are learning so far." > And after awhile, we bog down in situation after > situation which do not build on each other but rather > illustrate the philosophy over and over again. > "Here's another example," she seems to be saying. Is this a matter of taste then....because I did not have a problem with this. I *liked* the "summing up" as you put it. I guess that is my "blindness" if you to the faults that Darlene and Melissa have found with this book. The story moved very well for me and I was not distracted by the philosophizing. I was completely involved in this writing. Melissa noted in a previous post in answer to mine that her review was her perception and that my enjoying it did not mean I was a moron, but rather that I was the audience for the book. > As I said before, the book may be a clever example of > a treatise with a few fictional illustrations. But, > reading it, I felt betrayed by the beginning and, yes, > by its status as "Best Novel" into thinking that it > was a good yarn, skillfully told. That it was not. However I felt that it was. So I am asking, is the book really poor writing and I am a poor judge of what is good or bad writing, because I truly do want to learn. Do I not recognize poor writing or am an I am nimble enough to leap over the bad parts and just enjoy the good parts. One who enjoyed Tathea in quest of knowledge and wisdom, Eileen eileens99@bigplanet.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN Students Start LDS Magazine for U of Utah: Salt Lake Tribune Date: 11 Jul 2000 21:08:14 EDT 11Jul00 D4 [From Mormon-News] Students Start LDS Magazine for U of Utah (Into the Fray: LDS Magazine Adds Voice to U. Dialogue) Salt Lake Tribune 11Jul00 D4 http://www.sltrib.com/07112000/utah/utah.htm By Kirsten Stewart: Salt Lake Tribune SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH -- A group of University of Utah students are launching an on-campus magazine aimed at the University's LDS students. "The Century" is expected to debut in September, and already enjoys support from the niversity's Publications Council, which oversees all 15 student-run publications on campus, and the university's LDS Institute and from the local Latter-day Saint Student Association. The publication will be run by student Erika Threw, who will serve as its Editor-in-Chief and heads a small group of volunteers who will write and edit the publication. The Century will start with a circulation of 15,000, and will replaced the current LDS Institute newsletter. While Threw says the point isn't to attract controversy, she won't be surprised if the magazine ruffles some feathers. "Our point with The Century is that it would be an LDS student voice," says Thew, a junior majoring in psychology and a returned LDS misisonary. But the main student newspaper, the Daily Utah Chronicle, has been accused of catering to an anti-Mormon sentiment and shutting-out Mormon views. Threw says that The Century will try to "break down the barriers and banish stereotypes. But more than that, we want to cover, in greater depth, church news and religious themes as they pertain to college students." While hard figures on the number of LDS students at the University of Utah aren't available, Robert Norman, a faculty advistor for the LDS Institute estimates that about 50 percent of the student body is LDS. The Century will attempt to draw advertising targeted at those students. Threw says that The Century's first issue will focus on "making a difference." The magazine will also publicize LDS Institute events and spotlight "all the good things that are happening on campus." >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: [AML] OSCARSON (was: YOUNG, _I Am Jane_ (Performances)) Date: 11 Jul 2000 21:44:47 -0400 Don Oscarson also wrote part of a musical we put on in downtown Columbus on a replica of the Santa Maria every summer for several years. _Christopher, The Musical of Discovery_ (Performances now discontinued with the completion of our temple) Tracie - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: RE: [AML] First Novel Drafts Date: 11 Jul 2000 21:44:50 -0400 Are you talking about the "holy heck" or the editor in your head? Natalie Goldberg, and several others-I have know idea who first-talks about separating the editor from the creator in different phases in your writing. -----Original Message----- << Tell the editor in your head to shut the holy heck up. >> Is this Mormonese? I think it's the first time I've ever heard this. Kinda cute and kinda Mormon. Violet - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Needle Subject: [AML] Re: ADAMS, _Prodigal Journey_ Date: 11 Jul 2000 17:00:08 -0700 At 12:18 PM 7/11/00 -0600, you wrote: >I think you'll really like Linda Adams's book, _Prodigal Journey_ (hope I >got the title right). I previewed this novel for Cornerstone a month or two >ago and very much enjoyed it. It's not so much about the Last Days as it is >about a particular woman's journey in that time period. So Linda or Richard, >can you tell us if that book is available yet? > >Rachel It sounds like it will be a very good read. I'll look forward to more news on this title. Thanks for the nice note! Still squinting ..... --------------- Jeff Needle jeff.needle@general.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: [AML] _Irreantum_ Call for SF&F Submissions Date: 11 Jul 2000 20:31:49 -0600 _Irreantum_ magazine, published quarterly by the Association for Mormon Letters, is looking for good Mormon science fiction and fantasy stories to publish each issue. _Irreantum_ also publishes poetry, essays, plays, and reviews. We are planning an sf/f themed issue and are looking for submissions in all categories. Please mark submissions "sf/f submission" and send them to the following address: Below are the general guidelines for the magazine. Other information can be found at http://www.xmission.com/~aml/irreantum.htm Remember we are publishing one sf/f story each issue, so send your best! Thanks, Marny Parkin SF/F Editor, Irreantum Irreantum General Fiction Guidelines Stories and novel and play excerpts submitted to Irreantum should deal significantly with LDS life, spirituality, or culture. Irreantum explores all types of LDS literature, but for niche reasons Irreantum focuses its creative offerings on fiction for *middle* readers, the largest and most chronically neglected audience in the LDS market. Middle Readers Middle readers are college-educated, religiously conservative readers of intelligent mainstream and genre fiction. They are put off by most Mormon fiction they have encountered because they find it either too critical or too simplistic. Middle readers are open-minded and interested in cultural matters and artistic innovation. They are generally intolerant of explicit sex, excessive violence, and profanity and are typically uninterested in critiques of the Church, whether historical or contemporary The holy grail for these readers is the artistically challenging story that profoundly affirms their religious values. The Broadly Appropriate In terms of the three AML-List categories of completely appropriate, broadly appropriate, and shockingly appropriate, Irreantum opts for the middle category. Completely appropriate fiction defends the faith with characters who behave well. Its protagonists think and act appropriately and tend to fret over minor failings, and evil is never made to be attractive. Shockingly appropriate fiction defends the faith with protagonists who celebrate their perversity. By way of propounding a value of ultimate importance, it indulges or even celebrates lesser evils. Broadly appropriate fiction (Irreantums desired middle category) defends the faith with characters who behave poorly but not perversely. Evil is developed just enough to show its attraction. The point of a story might be to learn compassion by coming to grips with the complexity of a characters situation. Or the emphasis might be on agency, focusing on a sin or flaw in order to follow it through to its logical conclusion. (For a more thorough treatment of these categories, see Benson Parkinson, *Three Kinds of Appropriateness,* AML-List, 27-JAN-1997). (Note: These are intended as guidelines only. If you have something you don't feel fits these categories but would possibly be appropriate for Irreantum, please let us have a look.) Genre Irreantum has no genre restrictions. The most successful *middle* stories we have encountered have been in the areas of realistic, speculative, and young adult fiction, but we are anxious to see other kinds. As a special challenge to our writers, we would also like to see parables and short-short stories, done compellingly and simply enough to work for readers from all cultures. Manuscript Mechanics Irreantum accepts electronic submissions only. Any version of WordPerfect or Word will do. Stories should be single-spaced, in 12-point Times New Roman type, with one-inch margins and half-inch indents on the first lines of paragraphs (rather than double hard returns). Note blank-line section breaks with a single centered pound character (#). Turn off curly quotes and em and en dashes--use two hyphens instead. Submissions Send your manuscript as an e-mail attachment to irreant@cs.com, or mail it on disk to Irreantum, P.O. Box 50883, Provo, UT 84605. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] First Novel Drafts Date: 12 Jul 2000 00:12:51 EDT dmichael@wwno.com: Tell the editor in your head to shut the holy heck up. Violet : Is this Mormonese? I think it's the first time I've ever heard this. Kinda cute and kinda Mormon. _______________ Sure. Comes straight from the scriptures: "There are ... so many kinds of voices in the world, ..." (Paul, as quoted in 1 Cor. 14:10) Larry Jackson ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN Gilgal Now Owned by Salt Lake City, But Not Park Yet: Salt Date: 12 Jul 2000 00:12:51 EDT Lake Tribune 10Jul00 A4 [From Mormon-News] Gilgal Now Owned by Salt Lake City, But Not Park Yet (Salt Lake's Gilgal Garden Gets a New Lease on Life) Salt Lake Tribune 10Jul00 A4 http://www.sltrib.com/2000/jul/07102000/utah/65864.htm By Rebecca Walsh: Salt Lake Tribune SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH -- The status of the Gilgal Garden is finally settled. The non-profit Trust for Public Lands purchased the sculpture garden from the Fetzer family and turned over the title to Salt Lake City on Friday, finally saving the Garden from possible destruction from developers. But several steps remain before it becomes a public park. The garden is the creation of LDS bishop Thomas Child, a stonemason and sculptor Maurice Brooks, who filled the garden with an eclectic group of sculptures and stoneworks, many of which reflect LDS themes. When Child died in 1963, the garden was purchased by Henry Fetzer, who's children wanted to sell the garden because of the liability and maintenance costs. The Friends of Gilgal started three years ago, persuading the Fetzer family to not sell the garden to a Canadian real estate company that wanted to build condominiums. Persuading the San Francisco-based Trust for Public Lands to intervene and buy an option on the property, they then started raising the money needed to make the purchase. The LDS Church pledged $100,000, as did the Eccles Foundation. Salt Lake County then pledged $400,000, nearly completing the purchase price. Now, with the purchase finished, several steps remain to make the garden a public partk. utility bills need to be transferred to the city's name and the gates and sprinkler system need to be checked. The Friends will also need to raise another $600,000 to $800,000 to build a larger entrance, a wrought-iron fence around the property and to restore crumbling stonework. But the Friends of Gilgal have declared victory, and are taking a bit of a breather. "We're tired," says Friends board member David Sucec. "But we're ready to go on to the next phase. Now that we've saved it, we don't feel the pressure of the deadline." The Friends have signed a curator agreement with the city. "It's a matter of logistics now," says city deputy attorney Lynn Pace. He and other city attorneys still need to draft a conservation easement to protect the property against future development, and they need to resolve property lines that are still not clear. But Gilgal is expected to open as a city park later this summer. But as a city park it will remain somewhat unique, not only because of its unique sculptures, but also because of how it will be managed. Because of the sculptures, Gilgal will have shorter hours than most city parks, which are open from dawn until 11 p.m. in the summer, and will have a fence around it. See also: Mormon News' coverage of the Gilgal Garden http://www.MormonsToday.com/subjects/Gilgal.shtml >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Adams Subject: [AML] Re: ADAMS, _Prodigal Journey_ Date: 11 Jul 2000 23:55:55 -0500 >I think you'll really like Linda Adams's book, _Prodigal Journey_ (hope I >got the title right). I previewed this novel for Cornerstone a month or two >ago and very much enjoyed it. It's not so much about the Last Days as it is >about a particular woman's journey in that time period. So Linda or Richard, >can you tell us if that book is available yet? >________________________________ >Rachel Ann Nunes Thank you, Rachel, for the endorsement. (She also wrote a cover blurb for it, but didn't mention that.) I'll have to get and read your father's book as well, since it's on the same sort of subject. _Prodigal Journey_ is available TODAY at last!! Yea! It's been delayed at the printer's for about two weeks. Richard called me tonight to say he'd dropped them off at Deseret Book this afternoon, so it *should* be able to be ordered as of now. I haven't checked the DB website yet to see if they have a link up there for ordering, but you could probably, at least, call and order it if it's not actually "in stores" or available online yet. It could also be listed under the series title, _Thy Kingdom Come,_ as well as the actual title of Volume 1, _Prodigal Journey._ I don't know how long it usually takes to go from the warehouse to sitting on store displays, but I hope it's not much longer. It lists at $14.95 and at 520 pp. it's over 1 1/2 inches thick. But it reads fast--right, Rachel? It is more about one woman's experiences during that time period than the events themselves, yes, but that's the kind of story I prefer to write. I am much more a character-based than plot-based author, and I don't like wading through long descriptions or paragraphs of philosophy any more than the next person, so there isn't too much of that in it either. I'll be glad to read and respond here to reviews and reactions (positive or negative) from any of you who read it. I'm looking forward to getting my copies in the mail soon and holding my first real book in my hands. I'm still amazed I've actually been published. It feels very, very strange, but good. Linda Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com http://members.xoom.com/adamszoo http://home.sprintmail.com/~adamszoo - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Maxwell, Frank" Subject: [AML] Mormon Thesis Database Date: 11 Jul 2000 22:18:15 -0700 Whoa! Before signing anything, let's look at this again. Chris wrote: >I got a letter from BYU's copyright management office asking permission >to put my master's thesis on an electronic database of all theses on topics >associated with Mormonism. My thesis is a novella, so apparently they're >including creative works. >This could be a great resource for us. Does anyone else know anything >about this? I will keep you posted if I hear anything more. The letter says >the database will be available to a bunch of BYU and Church departments >and to the general public through qualifying institutions. Here are some questions: 1. What, precisely, does the contract state? What type of rights would you be signing away? Who will own the copyright -- the author, or BYU? What type of remuneration is being offered? Will BYU retain the electronic rights in perpetuity, or can they be required to renegotiate the agreement in X number of years (a good clause to have in the contract, in light of the ever-evolving sophistication of intellectual property law)? What rights will the original authors retain? Chris, would you mind posting the text of the proffered contract to this list? This could be a matter of great importance to many writers and scholars. In fact, I'm wondering how the contract looks after comparing it to model contracts from, say, the Author's Guild or the Science Fiction Writers of America. 2. Is BYU claiming the right to electronically distribute the theses based upon the presence of the theses in the university library? Wouldn't this violate the common law copyrights owned by the authors of the theses? I was not aware that graduate students writing theses or dissertations are ever asked to cede ownership of their final products to the universities that award the diplomas. Yes, bound copies of a thesis are given to a university to be put in the library; but the library is a repository of books, not an owner of intellectual property. In contrast, film students at UCLA and USC have to sign contracts giving ownership of their student film projects to the universities. But that provision is explicitly stated in writing before the students shoot the movies. I don't think that is the case with graduate theses & dissertations. Or is it? I sincerely hope the argument is NOT being made that the absence of a copyright notice on a master's thesis gives the university the right to claim ownership of the thesis. That would be unconscionable. If someone with more knowledge can please say something -- anything -- to reassure me, it would be most appreciated, before I fall off the precipice of overreaction into the gulf of indignation. 3. Scott Duvall, Assistant University Librarian for Special Collections for the BYU library, stated: > This project emanates from the BYU Library. We have identified > approximately 700 Master's theses written at BYU over the years that > deal with Mormonism in some way. These theses will be digitized and > made available on the library's web site. We are considering bids for > outsourcing right now and we anticipate this collection being available > in about one year. So what will the final product be? PDF files, which exactly duplicate the look of the original typed pages? Or will just the words be digitized? Frank Maxwell ********************************************************************************* This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review or distribution by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient please contact the sender and delete all copies. *********************************************************************************** - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard R Hopkins Subject: [AML] Re: ADAMS, _Prodigal Journey_ Date: 11 Jul 2000 19:02:07 -0600 > I think you'll really like Linda Adams's book, _Prodigal Journey_ > (hope I > got the title right). I previewed this novel for Cornerstone a month > or two > ago and very much enjoyed it. It's not so much about the Last Days > as it is > about a particular woman's journey in that time period. So Linda or > Richard, > can you tell us if that book is available yet? > > Rachel > ________________________________ > Rachel Ann Nunes > Author of the best-selling novel To Love and to Promise > E-mail: rachel@ranunes.com > Web page: http://www.ranunes.com Rachel and everyone, I am pleased to announce that the first boxes of Linda's book were delivered to Deseret Book this evening. How soon they get it out there, I don't know, but it's now available. If you don't have a DB near you, ask your local LDS book store to order it. We do business with all the LDS book stores. We will widen distribution as demand for the book grows. We think everyone will enjoy this one! And thanks for the good word, Rachel. Richard Hopkins - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rachel Ann Nunes" Subject: [AML] KEMP, _I Hated Heaven_ (Review) Date: 12 Jul 2000 09:59:58 -0600 This is (hopefully) going to be a short review because I've been spending way too much time on e-mail. I also hope this hasn't been reviewed recently. Here goes . . . I met Kenny Kemp at a booksigning in Murray and immediately liked him. He is outgoing, friendly, and witty. Since we were at a store with about six or seven authors and little publicity, we had next to nothing to do except chat with each other and those around us. I was excited to exchange books with him (as I will any of you other authors out there). I had heard a lot about _I Hated Heaven_ and was very interested to read it. When I did, it reminded me a lot of the author--outgoing, witty, and often thoughtful. _I Hated Heaven_ tells the story of married couple Tom and April Waring. Tom is a believer, April is not. When Tom unexpectedly finds himself dying, April asks him to come back from the dead and let her know if there is a heaven. The overall love story is not new, having been done before in _Heaven Can Wait,_ though there were plenty of differences to keep my interest. One of the two things I enjoyed the most about the book was dialogue between the couple, Tom and April. It was sometimes tender and at others sharp and funny. I liked Tom right away and could see why April loved him. I expected his death to occur almost immediately, but was pleased that Kenny took time to develop their relationship so that I would care about their separation. He did a wonderful job of showing their attachment and the barrier of Tom's faith that stood between them. I also appreciated the manner of Tom's death, as it took me by surprise. I won't spoil it for those of you who haven't read it, but I had envisioned his death occurring in another manner. The other thing I really liked about the book was the portrayal of the Afterlife. This is certainly not Saturday's Warrior! I nearly laughed aloud at some of the references. Though the book is not about Mormons, there was obvious LDS references, and I found myself wondering how non-members would see these "truths." Ironically, one of the things I felt was a drawback in the book was also the portrayal of the Afterlife, most particularly the indifference he met there. But in thinking about this over the past few days, I realize that this is probably because of my own preconceived ideas. It bothered me that Tom was so alone in a place that should have been welcoming, although this most certainly added to his desire to get back to earth to see his wife. If he became too content, he might have been less inclined to keep his promise (which for you romantics out there, was very touching). The other drawback for me was the character of Stan, whom Tom meets in the Afterlife. Once again, I don't want to reveal the entire surprise to those who haven't read the book, but I had a strong gut reaction to the character when he reveals his true identity. I thought the flippancy of this portrayal took away from the book and the serious parts of the novel, though I did like the idea of Stan guiding Tom back to earth so that he could at least try to keep his promise. Others may get a kick out of the portrayal of Stan, but I think many more might feel as I did. The book ends happily, though different from _Heaven Can Wait_. At first I thought it was a little too good, but then how else should a book like this end? I would have hated it if had ended sadly (go ahead, call me sappy). IMO, a book about heaven has every right to call upon a miracle to end well. Certainly, it was possible given the boundaries of the genre. On the whole, _I Hated Heaven_ was an enjoyable read that sometimes made me think. My husband is reading it now, and I'm interested to hear what he'll say about it because he invariably disagrees with at least half of my conclusions, or at least my reasoning for those conclusions. As many of you might as well. But I think you won't be wasting your time if you read this book. Rachel ________________________________ Rachel Ann Nunes Author of the best-selling novel To Love and to Promise E-mail: rachel@ranunes.com Web page: http://www.ranunes.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rachel Ann Nunes" Subject: Re: [AML] Andrew's Poll Date: 12 Jul 2000 10:24:14 -0600 Marilyn said: >Margaret, you are something else. I think this is a MAS (mutual admiration society for those of you throwing arlound your IMO and IMHO, BTW, etc.) Anyway, you know this is one of the banes of our existence--all of you who write out there! You know your ward members are apt to care only 2 beans > Don't I know it. I have so many neighbors who have either never tried LDS fiction or they don't read at all. It's enough to drive you batty. I am asked to speak at Enrichment (Homemaking) meetings all over the state to talk about developing talents, but has our Enrichment committee approached me--no way! (Though maybe I wouldn't want to do it, now that I think about it . . .) I've been in the ward two years now and the few who do read LDS fiction have actually started to connect me with my writing. "Oh, *you* write those books?" as though that could not be possible. (Do I have horns, or what?) I guess it could be the difference between the way my name is spelled and pronounced (noon-esh). Of course, they want to borrow the books (which I don't really mind), not buy them, and I've begun asking them to go to the library. Marilyn, I am also a fan of your work. I have read some of your other novels and am reading _Statehood_ now. Way to go! And what's more, I loved Margaret's _House Without Walls._ If we need a MAS to keep us motivated, so be it. Rachel ________________________________ Rachel Ann Nunes Author of the best-selling novel To Love and to Promise E-mail: rachel@ranunes.com Web page: http://www.ranunes.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rachel Ann Nunes" Subject: Re: [AML] THAYER, _Summer Fire_ Date: 12 Jul 2000 10:02:35 -0600 >How did Rachel know that we're putting up fence today? She must be a >prophetess! Okay Rachel, can you guess which prominent AML member and list >participant is out helping and bringing one of his children to help in the >moral guidance thing? >Alan Mitchell Sorry, one vision per customer. :) Rachel ________________________________ Rachel Ann Nunes Author of the best-selling novel To Love and to Promise E-mail: rachel@ranunes.com Web page: http://www.ranunes.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Darvell" Subject: Re: [AML] First Novel Drafts Date: 12 Jul 2000 12:33:32 -0500 If anyone is interested, I'll post my writing process. I've written two novels and two novellas, all unpublished so far. This is the process that I've developed over time while teaching myself to write novels. I call it "The Hunt Method." :-) I gotta have some claim to fame, don't I? ;) Step 1. Fermentation: I think about the story, the characters, and what I want to communicate to the reader with this story. This is an on-going process that continues throughout the work. But if I start actual writing before my plot and characters are fermented enough, I often discover that I have considerable difficulty understanding what it is that I'm trying to write about. I research and think a lot! This is where I decide what primary goal the story is going to be -- but it might change later. Step 2. Outline and define: Here I start writing an overview of my storyline. I write a fairly detailed outline. I Create dossiers for my characters, even minor ones. I give them birthdates, habits, hobbies, physical characteristics, etc. I'll never use all of this information, but I get to know my characters personally. When I finally get to know them, I can write about them. It's easier to write about people I know. And obviously, knowlege of my story and characters will increase as I actually write about them. This outline and characterization is just the beginning -- many changes will still occur while writing the story and I won't follow the outline exactly. But it forms the backbone upon with the story is formed. Step 3. Write the story: I think it is best to write the first rough draft as quickly as possible. Don't go back and rewrite until the story is done. Keep the flow in your mind. Don't wait too long between writing sessions or you'll forget where you are. I reread previous sections only when I am considering tie-ins between the chapters, remembering what I wrote to write new stuff, or adding things in previous chapters to foreshadow more about what I know now after writing subsequent chapters. I try to just write all of the way through to the end. (Sometimes I just read a little bit here and there to inspire me to continue, though.) Step 4. Rewrite: I go over my story over and over and over, fixing grammer, spelling, plotline, characters, etc. I continue reading and rewriting over and over it until I'm not changing many things. This takes a long time. If I find that I am still editing, I know that I have lots of work yet to do. I continue this process until I find that I am only making a correction or two per page, or even less. This gets very boring and very tiring. I get very sick of my story during this step. This is the most time-consuming step and has few rewards. Step 5. Aging process: When I feel that my story is finally about done, I stop working on it. I put it on the shelf and work on something else. I try not to even think much about it (which isn't hard because I'm sick of it by now!). I sometimes let it go for months, if I can, which isn't hard because I'm a great procrastinator. I really need to get to the point where I've forgotten what I've written. Only then can I be at least partially subjective. Many times I will think about something and think that I write about it, but what ends up on the page is something completely different or maybe incomplete than what I thought I wrote. So I just let it sit and age. Age makes fine wines and fine stories. Step 6. Go back: After the aging process, I go back to step 4 until I like what I see. I only ever get it to about 90% - 95% done. I find that I can't bother with the last few percent, because the creeping elegance will kill me. It's not perfect and never will be. If it's good enough and an editor accepts my work, they will help with the last 5%-10%. You have to attract the publisher -- they will hopefully help you to finish the rest. Even if you think that you have gotten 100%, an editor will no doubt still make suggestions and corrections. (I don't know that from first-hand experience, though!) I repeat steps 4 thru 6 as necessary. As a warning, don't let the "creeping elegance" of your story prevent you from every finishing it and submitting it. Sometimes you have to say, "That's good enough!" If you work too hard at it, you might get too much paint on the canvass and mes up the painting. So that's my process. It's helped me get things done so far, but it hasn't gotten me published yet. But it will. Some of the best comments about my writing has been that I have nice, readable text. It seems to flow well. That's not by accident. I am not a very good first draft writer, but I rewrite and rewrite and rewrite until I'm blue in the face. After 20 or 30 times through a work, I'm sometimes almost satisfied with it. Then I let people read it. Darvell _____________________________________________ Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! http://www.MyOwnEmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kathleen Woodbury Subject: Re: [AML] First Novel Drafts Date: 12 Jul 2000 11:48:08 -0600 At 03:52 PM 7/10/00 -0700, Christopher Bigelow wrote: >I'm amazed at how difficult it is to write a novel. Just to get this far into the first draft (and >I'm within about 50 pages of "finishing" it) I've had to just keep willfully writing ahead, not >letting myself get discouraged by basic flaws that are already apparent or by sections that I know >are too bareboned or too overloaded with irrelevant details that I've heaped on because hey, I'm >writing a NOVEL, and it needs to be LONG, and I'll feel better if I can get FOUR pages done before I >flip over to e-mail--yet I don't want to decide which scene comes after this one. Something to consider in writing a novel. Just as when they film a movie, they don't necessarily film the scenes in the order in which they will be viewed, you don't have to write the novel in the order in which it will be read. This means that you don't have to decide which scene comes after this or that one until you've got the scenes written, and you can write them in whatever order you feel like writing them in. (One of the first-draftnesses about first drafts. It really can be that messy.) If later scenes are clearer in your mind than earlier ones, write them first. Sometimes, writing what happens later helps you to figure out what had to go before. If a later scene is particularly exciting to you, don't wait till you get to it in the linear course of the story. It may not be as exciting to you by then. Write what is ready to be written when it is ready to be written. They don't call film editors "editors" for nothing. You can do that with your writing as well. Kathleen Dalton-Woodbury workshop@burgoyne.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ViKimball@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] First Novel Drafts Date: 12 Jul 2000 14:04:49 EDT In a message dated 7/12/00 10:07:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time, lajackson@juno.com writes: << shut the holy heck up. >> Actually I was referring to this. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] List Interruption Date: 13 Jul 2000 15:39:58 -0500 List members, Apologies for this morning's interruption of List posts. I will be trying to catch up over the next little while. As a note of only minor interest to Mormon letters, but some small importance in the life of the AML-List Moderator, I'm also taking this opportunity to announce the arrival of Michael John Langford, July 12, 2000, at 11:41 p.m. Central Daylight Time. 10 lbs, 4 1/2 oz. 21 1/4 inches. Mother and child doing well. These two items, of course, have nothing whatever to do with each other. :^) Jonathan Langford AML-List Moderator - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] Re: ADAMS, _Prodigal Journey_ Date: 12 Jul 2000 14:02:31 -0700 Is it available through one of the big Internet discounters? I don't like = ordering through DB's website because they charge full price plus $3.95 = for shipping. * * * * * * Read my novella about Mormon missionaries at http://www1.mightywords.com/as= p/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=3DEB00016373. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Andrew's Poll Date: 12 Jul 2000 15:35:24 -0600 Rachel Ann Nunes wrote: > Don't I know it. I have so many neighbors who have either never tried LDS > fiction or they don't read at all. True, but if you live long enough, you may someday take joy in an occurrence similar to one I recently had. It was testimony meeting. The First Counselor was conducting. He started off a list of three things for which he was thankful. The first one was for a story that I had written and published in the first issue of LDSF, back in 1979 (?). The story was called "The Glowing" about a closet doubting BYU Physics professor who invents a time machine that he uses to see if Joseph Smith really had a vision. I forget what the other two thankful things on his list were . Our brothers and sisters don't read as much of our stuff as we would certainly like, but some do. Hopefully, more and more will join the ranks as we each get better and better. -- Thom Duncan Read the further adventures of Moroni Smith, the LDS Indiana Jones! The long-awaited second episode in the Moroni Smith LDS adventure series, _Moroni Smith: In Search of the Gold Plates_ is now available as an e-book at the Zion's Fiction web page: http://www.zfiction.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Darvell" Subject: [AML] Movings Ratings Date: 12 Jul 2000 17:24:33 -0500 I just read an article on the Deseret News web site that appeared in the Los Angelos Daily News regarding the financial success (or the lack thereof) of rated-R movies. Apparently they are doing as well as lesser-rated films. Maybe giving a movie an R-rating isn't necessarily a good thing. Anyway, I found it interesting, given the recent discussions of movie rating here on the list. You can read the article at: http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,175018965,00.html Darvell _____________________________________________ Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! http://www.MyOwnEmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terry L Jeffress" Subject: [AML] Review Archive Announcement Date: 12 Jul 2000 17:15:35 -0600 [MOD: Thanks, Terry, for your work on this. And I really will get over to your site and review the format--as soon as I get caught up on certain other current family matters... (delusion, delusion).] Today I finised formatting the old text reviews for the new Web Review Archive. The archive contains 368 reviews, including today's (12 July 2000) by Rachael Nunes. You can preview the Web Review Archive at http://www.xmission.com/~jeffress/aml/index.html Now before you send me hate mail because your recent review isn't in the list, Michael Martindale (the previous Review archivist) still has some reviews that he has yet to forward to me. As soon as I get those, I will format and upload them. On the other hand, if you know of a review that appeared in 1999 or earlier that's not in the Web Archive, please let me know so I can find the review in the list archive and include it in the Web Archive. You might also want to check entries that include your name. In some cases, I did have to choose from among many forms (Ed Snow, Edgar Snow, Edgar C. Snow, Edgar C. Snow Jr). [Should we try to analyze the personality difference Ed exhibits based on his chosen name form? :-) ] If you don't like the form I selected, let me know. If you don't like your name -- well, I guess let your parents know. The list features review counts, so you can easily tell how many times a title has been reviewed, how many reviews appear for a particular publisher or author, and how many reviews an individual has written. For example, here's the top six prolific reviewers on the AML-List: 1. Jeff Needle (35) 2. R. W. Rasband (25) 3. Harlow Clark (23) 4. Katie Parker (14) 5. D. Michael Martindale (11) 6. Benson Parkinson (11) These individuals have contributed almost one third of the reviews in the archive. I would like to offer a virtual "high five" to show gratitude for these indidivuals that have made such an excellent resource possible. [MOD: Amen!] Steps for the future: -- Move the archive from its staging area on my personal site to the official AML site on XMission. (Benson, my estimate was high. The archive's just over 4 MB.) -- Add new reviews to the archive at least twice each month (depending on list activity). When I update the archive, I will also post an announcement similar to this one listing the new titles available. You can always see the latest reviews by clicking "Latest" for a list of the 20 most recent reviews -- Investigate full-text searching for the archive -- Review each title in library of congress catalog and complete any missing bibliographic data in the existing reviews -- Read some of the highly recommended works myself Of course, I always welcome suggestions and comments. -- Terry Jefffess - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: [AML] Re: _Irreantum_ Call for SF&F Submissions Date: 12 Jul 2000 19:41:51 -0600 At the end of the guidelines, it listed a PO Box for hardcopy submissions. I have been informed that this box is no longer in use. We prefer electronic submissions (send them to ), but if you really want to, you can mail submissions to: Irreantum c/o Assoc. for Mormon Letters 1925 Terrace Dr. Orem, UT 84097 Sorry for the mix-up. Marny Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: eedh Subject: Re: [AML] PERRY, _Tathea_ Date: 13 Jul 2000 05:53:15 -0700 Eileen wrote: > So I am asking, is the book really poor writing and I am a poor judge of > what is good or bad writing, because I truly do want to learn. Do I not > recognize poor writing or am an I am nimble enough to leap over the bad > parts and just enjoy the good parts. Okay, here goes. Not that I know enough to teach anyone anything, necessarily, but I will try to explain what didn't work, for me, about _Tathea_. John Gardner (in _The Art of Fiction_) said that "fiction does its work by creating a dream in the reader's mind. We may observe, first, that if the effect of the dream is to be powerful, the dream must probably be vivid and continuous. . . one of the chief mistakes a writer can make is to allow or force the reader's mind to be distracted, even momentarily, from the fictional dream." That's what was frustrating to me. I was racing across that desert with Tathea. I was thrilling to the light and colors spilling over the sand. I felt the sand in my teeth, felt the dirt coating my skin. My horse was sweaty and exhausted. I was worried about what was over that next ridge. I was really there with Tathea. But when that old woman at the grave gave that long speech, I woke up from my fictional dream, shook my head, and said "Wait a minute! That wouldn't really happen! An old woman, mourning at a grave, would her third comment to a complete stranger *really* turn into that long speech?" I was skeptical. That speech woke me up from my fictional dream in the same way someone kicking the back of my chair during a movie in a movie theater would do. I was annoyed. But Anne Perry had so successfully put me into that fictional desert world that I was willing to forgive her, willing to hope that it was a mistake and wouldn't happen again. But I became annoyed again and again; the dream kept getting interrupted again and again. In the beginning of the third chapter, when Tathea woke up (after all the trauma she'd been through), would her first sentence *really* have been "Is truth all about power?" I could think of many, many things a person in her situation might say, but "Is truth all about power?" was not one of them. At that point, I was skeptical, and frustrated, and tired of being woken up from my fictional dream. In this way, for me, _Tathea_ did not succeed at being good fiction. I don't think this is a reflection on your ability to judge good fiction though. When John Gardner wrote about the importance of the fictional dream, he also said: "There may be exceptions to this general rule. . ." Later in the book he talks about some unconventional types of fiction where the author intends to interrupt the dream to get some kind of message across to the reader. Perhaps this is the kind of fiction _Tathea_ is supposed to be. And it sounds like you happen to like this type of fiction. It seems that I prefer the more conventional type. I think both types of fiction can get the message across--they just do it in different ways. -Beth Hatch [MOD: I'm going to take this opportunity to emphasize that this is clearly a case where intelligent, sensitive readers can have different reactions to the same book. It's entirely appropriate to share your own reactions, whether positive or negative, and your reasons for them--as Beth has done here, and as Eileen also did. No one need feel ashamed or embarrassed at having a reaction that differs from--or is the same as--that of others.] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About Religion Date: 13 Jul 2000 07:46:21 -0600 On Wed, 28 Jun 2000 Eric R. Samuelsen writes: > By all means, write about the gospel. But that's in the background, > after you've done the hard work and research to make the novel or > short story or play about something else, something tangible and > real. What if that something else is God, or the Son of God? Are we "allowed" to do that? By that I mean, is there any kind of audience out here that will let us "put words into the mouth of God," a practice that Kristen Randle condemned in her treatise? Perhaps the reason I don't have a problem with doing that is two fold. One; I don't for a minute believe that someone else's version of the life of Christ (or some other divine figure) is the definitive version. I know I won't get that 'til much later. But I don't believe that should prohibit me from considering that artist's point of view. I can reject it if I want. Two; we put words into God's mouth every time we bear testimony, for when we testify (which we are doing when we speak in sacrament meeting or teach a class, etc.) we are essentially saying, "This is how the world should be according to my understanding of what God has said." And since we can't really give out God's word any way but through our own understanding, we are -- in a sense -- putting words in God's mouth. So, does it shock anyone if I confess that as far as I'm concerned all my writing, in one way or another, is a manefestation of my testimony? For me to offer my "worldview" to you is the same as bearing testimony. Everything I write is me putting words in God's mouth, for everything I write is me saying, "This is how the world ought to be." Now, if I were not a follower of Christ; if I were a follower of some other individual or philosophy, I would be putting words into the mouth of that individual or philosophy. We speak for whomever (whoever?) we follow. And according to my understanding of God's word ... there are only two ways to go. J. Scott Bronson--The Scotted Line "World peace begins in my home" We are not the acolytes of an abstruse god. We are here to entertain--Keith Lockhart - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Nelwyn Thurman" Subject: [AML] NUNES, _Ariana_ Series (was: Andrew's Poll) Date: 13 Jul 2000 10:57:51 -0500 Hi Rachel, I was visiting a friend a few days ago that I collaborate with from time to time (just finishing up the first draft of the third in a trilogy - great fun, even if it never goes anywhere), and this friend has a teenage daughter. The daughter has all your books, and my friend commented that she keeps finding the books all over her house so she knows her daughter is really reading them. Sorry, I assumed you pronounced your name Noon-YES. Nelwyn (Finally back from the computer-dead and glad to be seeing that the list hasn't changed much) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Thesis Database Date: 13 Jul 2000 09:39:16 -0700 The letter said the following notice will appear on the web site in = conjunction with the thesis: The right to download or print any of the pages of this thesis is granted = by the copyright holder only for personal or classroom use. The author = retains all proprietary rights. Any reproduction or editing by any means = mechanical or electronic wihtout the express written permission of the = copyright holder is strictly prohibited. Please write to the Copyright = Permissions Office [address provided] to request permission. The letter notes: "We will not be granting permissions. Request from = patrons will be forwarded to you." [Chris Bigelow] * * * * * * Read my novella about Mormon missionaries at http://www1.mightywords.com/as= p/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=3DEB00016373. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Good Writing Date: 13 Jul 2000 12:08:14 -0600 Tony Markham (a relative? I'm a Markham on my mother's side) wrote about = Plato's Republic: > The rational and well-ordered personality who deals with the >hard >blows of life with peace and equanamity is a sorry subject for >drama = (fiction) >and is seldom portrayed. 2) The poet (fiction writer) seeks to >represent= life >as is and merely creates a copy of what is real, and the copy is = >inferior to >reality in every respect. 3) Weak-minded people and children will >be = deceived >by the copy and will mistake the illusion of the artist for the reality = >of >life. >Artists, visual and poetic, have struggled with Plato for 2500 >years. Actually, not really. Within a few years of the Republic, Aristotle blew = him out of the water with The Poetics, and Plato, thank heavens, hasn't = been taken very seriously ever since. His point 2 is particulary suspect, tied up as it is in risible Platonic = notions of Ideal Forms. Drama, and by extension literature, deals with an = imitation of an action, a human effort to struggle with adversity and = conflict. We learn from it what we can, and we enjoy ourselves in the = process. That's Aristotle's common sense response to Plato's timorous = maunderings. Besides, you don't get the full flavor of Plato's Republic = without that nasty little shot about 'weak-minded people and children.' = Unsufferable elitist snob; there are some scholars today who think the = Republic is a parody. It's so preposterous, they can't imagine an = intelligent man having done it seriously. I don't think there's a person = on this List who would last three days in Plato's fascistic little = paradise. He's just not worth taking seriously, at least not in the = arts.=20 Eric Samuelsen =20 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: [AML] Re: Writing About Religion Date: 13 Jul 2000 11:43:03 -0600 Back from London, then straight into foot surgery and rehab, and now, = finally, once again, I'm able to respond to some old e-mails. The new Jane Smiley novel is called Horse Heaven, and yes it's about = horses and thoroughbred racing. Marvelous book; I can't tell you how much = I loved it. Chris responded parenthetically to my last post as follows: (adultery is = abstract? Hmmm). Yes, I would say that adultery is an abstraction. Sex is concrete; sex is = real. 'Adultery' is the category into which we place certain sorts of = sexual activity. 'Murder' is similarly an abstraction. Killing someone = is very concrete and real and specific. And then afterwards we decide = whether or not that act falls into the category of 'murder' or 'accidental = death' or 'justifiable homicide' or 'war.' =20 I think adultery is an interesting subject for LDS people, for example. I = just wrote a new play Peculiarities (which is going to receive an = 'under-the-radar' BYU production this next March) which deals, in part, = with sexless adultery, which I think is something that happens a lot in = LDS culture. 'Marriage' and 'adultery' are very interesting, and = ever-shifting, concepts, aren't they? =20 Eric Samuelsen (who is on lots of painkillers right now, so inclined to = ramble.) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: Re: [AML] Movie Ratings Date: 13 Jul 2000 13:46:09 PDT > >I just read an article on the Deseret News web site that appeared in the >Los Angelos Daily News regarding the financial success (or the lack >thereof) of rated-R movies. An online news story I read Wednesday was discussing the lack of a clear-cut "blockbuster" so far this summer, and how the box office is overall down from last year. Several theories are offered for the downturn (competition among similar movies, no major surprises, etc.), and one of them is "an abundance of R-rated pictures." "Notwithstanding 'Scary Movie,' several pictures have been hurt by the adult rating. 'The Patriot' and 'Me, Myself & Irene' are the highest-profile examples. And while it's a worldwide smash, 'Gladiator' arguably surrendered some of its gross in the U.S. due to its rating." (One could also argue, of course, that "The Patriot" and "Me, Myself & Irene" were additionally hampered by some bad reviews.) So there's an article written about the industry in which the idea of an R rating discouraging some viewers is a given -- apparently an accepted notion in the business. Eric D. Snider ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dallas Robbins" Subject: Re: [AML] Review Archive Announcement Date: 13 Jul 2000 22:32:39 GMT Terry, You have done an wonderful job on the new review archives. Excellent format, and easy navigation. Just wanted to let you know all the hard work is appreciated. Dallas Robbins editor@harvestmagazine.com http://www.harvestmagazine.com >From: "Terry L Jeffress" >Today I finised formatting the old text reviews for the new Web Review >Archive. The archive contains 368 reviews, including today's (12 July >2000) >by Rachael Nunes. > >You can preview the Web Review Archive at > http://www.xmission.com/~jeffress/aml/index.html ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: Re: [AML] List Interruption Date: 13 Jul 2000 16:49:49 -0600 > Apologies for this morning's interruption of List posts. > Mother and child doing well. > > These two items, of course, have nothing whatever to do with each > other. :^) > > Jonathan Langford While my wife was in the hospital in labor with our fourth child, I was making phone calls from her room to finalize details with the program for the Castle Theatre productions that year. She still talks about it. Go be with your wife and baby Jonathan or you'll never hear the end of it. scott - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" (by way of Jonathan Langford ) Subject: [AML] (On Stage) Lessons from London Date: 14 Jul 2000 10:01:55 -0500 [MOD: With this we initiate another new column, this one by Eric Samuelsen= =20 relating to Mormon theater and Mormon takes on theater. I don't know how=20 many columns Eric has in mind or how often they'll be coming, but here's the= =20 first one.] ON STAGE (Inaugural Column) by Eric Samuelsen "Upon the Stages of a theatre can be represented in character, evil and its= consequences, good and its happy results and rewards; the weakness and the= follies of man, the magnanimity of virtue and the greatness of truth." = These were the words of Brigham Young, found in the Journal of Discourses= (v. 9, 242-245), on the occasion of the dedication of the Salt Lake= Theatre. And with these words, theatrical entertainments are specifically= and directly specified as an essential part of a healthy culture, as an= inherently moral art form. In this column, I hope to build on Brigham's= words, and begin a conversation about the place of the dramatic arts in= current LDS culture, and the place of Mormons in contemporary world= culture, as represented theatrically. =20 I'm an opinionated cuss, and I hope you'll forgive my more extreme= outbursts. Above all, I hope that this column will prove stimulating,= interesting, and valuable. =20 Lessons from London I just returned from seven weeks in London, where I directed a BYU Study= Abroad program. In that time, I saw forty-eight plays, essentially one a= day, two some days, none on Sundays. So I thought I would write my= inaugural column about London, and specifically what I learned as a Mormon= artist and critic in the best theatre town in the world. A few things you need to know first. Theatre in London is divided into= three categories: West End, Off-West End, and Fringe. =20 I would also divide West End shows into three categories. First, there are= the two great subsidized theatre companies, the Royal National Theatre= Company and the Royal Shakespeare Company. During the summer, the RSC= performs in their three theaters in Stratford, then during the winter= months moves to its second home, in the Barbicon in London. The National= also runs three theaters; the small and intimate Cottesloe, the medium= sized Lyttleton and the Papa Bear sized Olivier. I saw nine shows= altogether at the National, and six at the RSC. Most were amazing, three= were mediocre, one was goshawful. =20 The other two kinds of West End theatres are what I would call tourist= houses and regular West End houses. Tourist houses are theaters that carry= the big musicals that tourists love--Les Mis, Cats, Buddy Holly, Mamma Mia,= Whistle Down the Wind--and other star studded shows, like the much= ballyhooed The Graduate, with naked Kathleen Turner. I saw Buddy Holly,= and liked it a lot, Whistle Down the Wind and despised it. The rest, I= avoided. The other West End consists of some really interesting shows,= where the audience is mostly not Americans, including some of the best= things I saw in London. They put some amazing things on the West End,= shows that you just don't think are going to be commercially viable, like a= stunning production of Miss Julie, or a wonderful Mother Courage. =20 West End tickets are typically high priced, but I never paid more than= fifteen pounds for anything. Tickets at the National cost us eight pounds.= The current exchange rate is about 1.5 dollars-1pound. Off West End shows are in smaller, but still quite substantial venues, a bit= further out of central London, with tickets a bit lower in cost. The Young= Vic's production of Macbeth is the single best thing I saw in London, and= it was Off West End. Fringe shows are in small theatres, often just a big room above a pub. The= shows are experimental, daring, strange. Tickets are very reasonable, and= many Fringe venues have a 'pay what you can' night. Some great things are= done on the Fringe. Some wretched shows are also part of the Fringe= experience. =20 I saw a lot of theatre in London. Had I gone to shows on Sundays, I could= have seen more. But I estimate that I saw about a third of all the shows= that were playing at any given time. It's simply not possible to see= everything. So you pick and choose. So, I went there. I saw a lot of theatre, mostly together with BYU= students. We saw a lot of Shakespeare. We saw a lot of new plays. We= heard the F word a lot. Nudity was part of at least 8 shows we saw, maybe= more. What did I learn; what did we learn? First of all, it was confirmed to me more than ever before that theatre is a= viable, important and exciting art form. In fact, I'm convinced that= theatre is the greatest of all possible art forms. I love movies, and= defend TV, and all that, but none of it compares with the glory of the live= theatrical experience.=20 Second of all, theatre more than anything else, is a social art form, an= exquisite forum for social criticism. Right now, for example, the New= Labor movement, and the government of Tony Blair, is a hot topic of= discussion in Britain. The plays reflected a sense of unease, and= discontent, a sense of massive communal wrongness. The Porter, in Macbeth,= suddenly broke out of his 'equivocation' speech to ad lib a stand-up= routine, including a spot-on Tony Blair impression. A wonderful new play,= Blue/Orange dealt with mental illness, and asked a very hard question--why= are a disportionate number of young black men diagnosed as mentally ill? = And worked in a very subtle indictment of the ways in which the National= Health service treats mental patients. London is a wealthy city, in a= prosperous nation, and everywhere you go you almost trip over the literally= hundreds of homeless people. Play after play dealt with issues relating to= poverty and homelessness, some overtly, some more subtlely. Theatre points= out problems, picks at scabs. Theatre makes people uncomfortable--that's= its function. Theatre says what a lot of people are thinking but would= rather not articulate. Good theatre is and must be an essential part of a= healthy culture. That's one of the things I learned in London. Here's another: the choice to= use nudity and bad language in a play are aesthetic, not moral choices. I can't emphasize this enough. Some plays we saw included a lot of nudity. = Others did not. Some plays used lots of foul language. Others used none. = But there was no correlation between the artistic, aesthetic, moral and,= for me and my BYU students, spiritual impact or success of the show and the= amount of nudity or bad language contained in it. None. One show we saw,= The Villains' Opera, had lots of bad language and graphic sexual behavior,= and was a complete bomb, a terrible show. And the huge Olivier theatre was= 90% empty when we saw it. Another show we saw, Victoria, had just as much= nudity and bad language, and was deeply moving, and profoundly inviting to= the Spirit. This was my experience. This doesn't mean that bad language= doesn't carry with it certain moral implications. All aesthetic choices= are also moral choices, of course. And our students were certainly not= unanimous in what shows they liked and didn't like. But shows like Stones= in His Pockets, Copenhagen, The Weir, Lady In The Van, Albert Speer, Mother= Courage were pretty much universally liked by the kids. Some of those= shows had bad language, some had nudity. Others didn't. It didn't matter. Finally, let me say that all the great shows we saw were profoundly= compatible with the best values of the Restored Gospel. I believe with all= my heart that great plays are great because they reflect true principles= revealed to prophets past and present. This was certainly true of the best= Shakespeare we saw, and we saw a lot of brilliantly performed Shakespeare. = Henry Goodman's Shylock, for example, turned the National's Merchant of= Venice into the most profound and troubling indictment of anti-Semitism I= have ever seen. Antony Sher and Harriet Walter gave us the most human and= touching and terrifying Macbeth couple I can imagine. And that's a true= play, about the corrosive power of naked ambition. (But it only works if= we see real human beings succumbing to that power.) But new plays have the= same truth and profundity. =20 Above all, theatre in London is inspiring. I wrote a new play while I was= there, and got two thirds finished with another one, and that while= teaching a full load. Great art begets great art. The best cure for= writer's block I know is a trip through an art gallery, or a trip to the= symphony. Or reading a terrific novel. I spent seven weeks traveling from= theatrical fantasy to theatrical fantasy, and have never felt more grounded= in what's real, and what really matters. =20 I expected to come back to Utah and be instantly depressed by a complete= lack of interesting theatre in this fine state. And of course Utah hasn't= the population base to support fifty West End houses and seventy Fringe= venues. But I Am Jane was playing in Springville. I had foot surgery and= couldn't go, but there's a marvelous piece of theatre. While I was gone,= Provoans saw a magnificent new play, Echoes of Black Canyon. There are= still great things happening in this state. And many more to come. =20 =20 Eric Samuelsen=20 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard R Hopkins Subject: Re: [AML] Re: ADAMS, _Prodigal Journey_ Date: 13 Jul 2000 17:25:12 -0600 We'll have it at Barnes & Noble pretty soon. Amazon is a bit difficult to work with, so we'll see. Richard Hopkins On Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:02:31 -0700 "Christopher Bigelow" writes: > Is it available through one of the big Internet discounters? I don't > like ordering through DB's website because they charge full price > plus $3.95 for shipping. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rex Goode" Subject: [AML] PARKINSON, _Into the Field_ (Review) Date: 13 Jul 2000 19:11:36 EDT PARKINSON, Benson _Into the Field_ Aspen Books 2000 Softcover 226 pages $12.95 [Reviewed by Rex Goode] When Richard Dutcher's, _God's Army_, first came to Portland, Oregon, I asked my daughter who was home from BYU for the summer if she had seen it. She replied that she had, then brashly commented, "But it doesn't accurately show what being on a mission is like." I smiled and asked, "How would YOU know?" Such was my fear upon having the opportunity to review Benson Parkinson's _Into the Field_. I wasn't certain whose decision that was, but figured it was not someone who knows me. Somehow, I figured that a major task in reviewing a novel about life on a mission should include a value judgment as to believability. I haven't served a fulltime mission, so how indeed would I know if the story was an accurate portrayal? My second fear was that I had not read the book to which _Into the Field_ is a sequel, _The MTC: Set Apart_. I pondered my added inadequacy in doing a review because I couldn't judge the sequel's flow from its parent. I hoped that there would be at least enough development of characters that most readers got to know in _The MTC: Set Apart_ so that I wouldn't have to suffer through shortcuts in characterization. My third fear was in being asked to review the work of someone I had come to regard as a friend and mentor. Could I give a thumb's down if I believed it deserved it? One area that Ben Parkinson and I have frequently discussed, as it relates to literary criticism, is the idea of the identity of the reviewer. It is fair game to review a work based on who I am, as the reviewer, and how the work resounds in my consciousness. It is really irrelevant whether I am externally qualified to judge the content as believable, consistent, or worthy, as long as I tie it in with who I am. In other words, a review of a novel about missionary life is as valid by someone who didn't serve a mission as by someone who did. My identity is that of a man who consciously chose to not serve a fulltime mission. The reasons are not important to my review, so I will forbear to tell them. In a culture where the mission a man served in is an important badge of honor, a man like me has no satisfying answer to the question, "So, where did you serve your mission?" I think that men who served missions don't really notice how often the question is asked. You can get to the point where you are not only sick of the question, but are also longsuffering of the endless stories that ensue if you happen to be around men who can answer the question satisfactorily. It was with this distaste that I picked up _Into the Field_ and began to read, hoping it wouldn't turn out to be like those socials I hate, where the men stand around and tell tall tales about their missions and their wives tell war stories about the delivery room, complete with near-death experiences bringing precious spirits from beyond the veil. I digested the prologue a few times, to make sure I had the characters straight, and then plunged pleasantly into the rest. The picture I had of the story grew rapidly dark. Where I expected enthusiastic missionaries going about their labors and gaining converts with relative ease were some intensely apathetic creatures and absolutely no converts. My mission-life cynic was really liking this. Still, it seemed a little too bleak to me, which is where the believability issue started to come in. I mean, if you were to believe the pep talks about missions being the best two years of a young man's life, you would expect that these kinds of slackers would be the exception rather than the rule. I also pondered that even if a mission like this were a possibility, it would take great audacity to write a story about it, given the cultural climate that ties everything up in such sweetly alluring packages. I entered the second chapter wondering when I'd get back to Elder Wilburg. Not any time soon, I discovered. I kept reading. By the time I reached the Burns Conference section, where a general authority comes and lays the mission out with a roundhouse to the head, I was cheering for the man. These missionaries needed their rumps kicked and Elder Burns was just the man to do it. Despite my unorthodoxy, I'm a rule-follower, often to the letter, and when someone shows disregard for the rules, even for rules I don't agree with, I like to see him get his attitude squarely adjusted. With everyone adequately chastised, I was certain the story would take a miraculous turn, and the missionaries would rout Satan and convert the whole mission. Instead, I saw seemingly fruitless work progress. Part of me wanted to jump to the end and read the triumphant ending just, to happy me up. It was upon this consideration that I noticed something about myself, something that the story helped me see. Here are these missionaries, fighting discouragement, doing the mundane things they were expected to do. They didn't start out that way. They started out lazy and over-expectant. When they finally start doing things right, the expected rewards don't follow. Baptisms, baptisms, baptisms? Where were the baptisms? Without being visibly rewarded, they keep going. Wasn't that a perfect summation of my life? Here and there, I saw in the story the subtle growths in spirituality, the personal, but hidden rewards of faithfulness. They weren't there to get baptisms. They were there to learn to do things right, to keep going when the carrot wasn't out in front where it belonged. Whether this story is a believable portrayal of missionary life, it resounds inside this soul as an aerial view on an important truth. Anyone who goes month after month, year after year, and decade after decade doing things right, but never realizing their expected reward, must do so from an inner strength and spirituality that is not reward-oriented. I can't tell you if _Into the Field_ portrays the missionary life accurately. I can't verify that it is true and consistent with _The MTC: Set Apart_. I can breathe a sigh of relief by giving it a hearty recommendation. Well done, Benson, and thanks. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN Denver Post Manager will be Publisher of Deseret News: Salt Date: 13 Jul 2000 21:54:53 EDT Lake Tribune 13Jul00 B2 [From Mormon-News] Denver Post Manager will be Publisher of Deseret News (Deseret News Chooses BYU Grad as Publisher) Salt Lake Tribune 13Jul00 B2 http://www.sltrib.com/07132000/business/66627.htm By Guy Boulton: Salt Lake Tribune SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH -- The Deseret News appointed Jim M. Wall, currently executive vice president and general manager of the Denver Post, as Publisher of the LDS Church-owned paper. Wall will replace the retiring Wm. James Mortimer, publisher of the Deseret News since 1985. Wall, who will take over the Publisher responsibilities in September, is a BYU graduate and long-time newspaper veteran, working at the Everett, Washington Herald, the Mesa, Arizona Tribune, the Las Cruces, New Mexico Sun-News and the former Dallas Times Herald before joining MediaNews, Inc., a media conglomerate which put Wall in charge of its New England Newspapers Inc., subsidiary, which includes a group of newspapers in Vermont and Massachusetts. MediaNews then asked Wall to work at the Denver Post in early 1999, overseeing the newspaper's advertising, research, marketing and new media services at various times. His experience came as the Post was fighting one of the fiercest newspaper battles in the US against the rival Rocky Mountain News. The battle ended in May when the two papers signed a joint-operating agreement in which the Post will be the dominant partner. Part of the attraction of Wall to the Deseret News is his experience in Las Cruces in which as publisher of the Sun-News he moved the newspaper from afternoon delivery to morning delivery. The Deseret News announced its intention to move to a morning newspaper several years ago, but has yet to make the switch. Throughout the US, afternoon papers have generally lost circulation to morning newspapers over the past 20 years. However, the Deseret News has bucked the trend in recent years, gaining circulation. It still has less than half the circulation of the Salt Lake Tribune, with whom it has a joint-operating agreement. >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Johnson Subject: Re: [AML] Review Archive Announcement Date: 13 Jul 2000 22:05:06 -0400 It is not a big deal, but I don't appear on the list of reviewers at all. One of my reviews _Statehood_ is there, but in the early days of the list I reviewed four or five books. One of them was _Before the Blood Tribunal_ one of the books about the young men in Germany at the beginning of the war; one was an Anne Perry novel. I'm scratching my head about the others because they were done before my retirement on a machine that belonged to the university, and, in order to find the titles I will have to schlepp through a pile of zip disks with which I backed up my old computer, and my lack of memory was one of the incentives I had to retire. Richard B. Johnson Husband, Father, Grandfather, Puppeteer, Playwright, Writer, Director, Actor, Thingmaker, Mormon, Person, Fool I sometimes think that the last persona is the most important http://www2.gasou.edu/commarts/puppet/ Georgia Southern University Puppet Theatre - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Adams Subject: [AML] Re: ADAMS, _Prodigal Journey_ Date: 13 Jul 2000 23:33:03 -0500 I wrote: >I am much more a character-based than plot-based author, and I don't like >wading through long descriptions or paragraphs of philosophy any more than >the next person, so there isn't too much of that in it either. Ack! What a horrible run-on sentence. I meant, not too many descriptive or philosophical passages. There IS a plot. Yes, there really is! Whoops! Yikes... glad my book was better edited than my e-mail posts... Linda Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com http://members.xoom.com/adamszoo http://home.sprintmail.com/~adamszoo - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] What Can AML-List Do for Me? Date: 14 Jul 2000 01:27:38 -0600 Marilyn Brown wrote: > I am SO MUCH looking forward to seeing your novel. I am > always hungry to read a good novel written by a Mormon I > trust. If nobody wants to publish it, let Salt Press do > it. Okay? Marilyn Brown Uh oh, the pressure's on now! What if you don't like it? If my novel ends up being rejected by everyone because they think there isn't a big enough audience for it (as opposed to they think it's garbage) I was planning on self-publishing through some print-on-demand thing. Letting Salt Press do it would be much preferable, since self-publishing is still considered suspect. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Movie Ratings Date: 14 Jul 2000 01:35:18 -0600 Darvell wrote: > I just read an article on the Deseret News web site that appeared in the > Los Angelos Daily News regarding the financial success (or the lack > thereof) of rated-R movies. >From the article: > Burbank-based entertainment industry analyst Art Rockwell said that while > it's clear that an R rating reduces a potential audience, "there's an > awful lot of successful R-rated films." Rockwell is missing the critical point. Would the successful R-rated films have done even better if the elements added to them to get that supposedly wonderful R-rating had been absent? -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Review Archive Announcement Date: 14 Jul 2000 02:25:02 -0600 Terry L Jeffress wrote: > Now before you send me hate mail because your recent review isn't in the > list, Michael Martindale (the previous Review archivist) still has some > reviews that he has yet to forward to me. As soon as I get those, I will > format and upload them. Don't send the hate mail to me either! I'll be forwarding those reviews real soon, now that Terry has publicly held my feet to the fire. > here's the top six prolific reviewers on the AML-List: > > 1. Jeff Needle (35) > 2. R. W. Rasband (25) > 3. Harlow Clark (23) > 4. Katie Parker (14) > 5. D. Michael Martindale (11) > 6. Benson Parkinson (11) I don't suppose I can convince Jeff to quit reading until I pass him into first place, can I? > You can preview the Web Review Archive at > http://www.xmission.com/~jeffress/aml/index.html Excellent job. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Johnson Subject: Re: [AML] Review Archive Announcement Date: 14 Jul 2000 11:22:24 -0400 At 02:25 AM 7/14/2000 -0600, you wrote: >Terry L Jeffress wrote: > >> Now before you send me hate mail because your recent review isn't in the >> list, Michael Martindale (the previous Review archivist) still has some >> reviews that he has yet to forward to me. As soon as I get those, I will >> format and upload them. > >Don't send the hate mail to me either! I'll be forwarding those reviews >real soon, now that Terry has publicly held my feet to the fire. > I apologize for the not re: reviews that was sent to the list. I thought I had sent it directly to Terry. Sigh. Eptitude, Eptitude wherefore art thou Eptitude? I have all the ineptitude I can stand. Richard B. Johnson Husband, Father, Grandfather, Puppeteer, Playwright, Writer, Director, Actor, Thingmaker, Mormon, Person, Fool I sometimes think that the last persona is the most important http://www2.gasou.edu/commarts/puppet/ Georgia Southern University Puppet Theatre - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terry L Jeffress" Subject: Re: [AML] Review Archive Announcement Date: 14 Jul 2000 11:24:38 -0600 Richard Johnson wrote: > It is not a big deal, but I don't appear on the list of reviewers at all. > One of my reviews _Statehood_ is there, but in the early days of the list I > reviewed four or five books. One of them was _Before the Blood Tribunal_ > one of the books about the young men in Germany at the beginning of the > war; one was an Anne Perry novel. I'm scratching my head about the others > because they were done before my retirement on a machine that belonged to > the university, and, in order to find the titles I will have to schlepp > through a pile of zip disks with which I backed up my old computer, and my > lack of memory was one of the incentives I had to retire. The archive contains three reviews by "Richard B. Johnson": _The Gathering_ by Maurine Proctor _Statehood_ by Marilyn Brown _A Sudden Fearful Death_ by Anne Perry I just downloaded the entire AML-List archive (61MB) and searched for Wobbe's _Before the Blood Tribunal._ I found sample pages, but no review by you, Richard. If you do come across that review, please post it to the list again, and I will gladly archive it. Since I now have the list archive on my machine, I can quickly search for any missing reviews you might report, so just send me a quick note with your name and either the title or author of the work you reviewed. I'll look for it in the archive and report back to you. I have decided that I will scour the list archive to make sure that all reviews have been represented. This might take some time -- it took us 6 years to produce all that text. I'm sure that Benson has scanned the archives several times for reviews, but I'll see what else I can find. -- Terry Jeffress - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cathy Wilson" Subject: [AML] Vitality Expo Date: 14 Jul 2000 11:32:15 -0600 [MOD: Sorry this didn't get out earlier.] This is so unliterary that it probably doesn't qualify for AML-List, but it's worth a try. . . This weekend is a Vitality Expo at the Salt Palace. I'll be there doing a book signing for my book on essential oils, called _Simple and Essential_. I'm also going to give two sessions, one at 11 on Saturday and one at 1 on Sunday, called "Choosing A Health Modality." I know this sounds dry but I hope it's going to be fun and elegant and scintillating and. . . .ah well. . . . Cathy (Gileadi) Wilson Editing Etc. 15 East 600 North Price UT 84501 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Needle Subject: Re: [AML] Review Archive Announcement Date: 14 Jul 2000 12:12:03 -0700 >> 1. Jeff Needle (35) >> 2. R. W. Rasband (25) >> 3. Harlow Clark (23) >> 4. Katie Parker (14) >> 5. D. Michael Martindale (11) >> 6. Benson Parkinson (11) > >I don't suppose I can convince Jeff to quit reading until I pass him >into first place, can I? Hee hee hee. Probably not. My life situation right now is that I have more time than ever to read, so I guess I'll keep going. Sorry about that. I should make a statement here about how grateful I am to everyone in AML and here on list for their welcome over the years. As a non-member, it's been a wonderful experience to read so many good LDS works, and to share ideas here about these books. I really have learned so much from all of you. My appreciation is great. --------------- Jeff Needle jeff.needle@general.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bruce Grant" Subject: [AML] eBook Query Date: 14 Jul 2000 15:03:46 -0600 Dear List, I need to pub a textbook on Chinese (Sino-Korean) Characters, for members of my classes. The best format for it is electronic, eBook perhaps, because of its length and complexity, and because only several dozen will sell each year. Adobe Acrobat with Web Buy and Adobe PDF Merchant would keep the book from being copied illegally, but PDF Merchant costs a cool $5,000. Microsoft's MS Reader is not yet available for PCs, and I don't know what MS's equivalent of PDF Merchant will cost. Have any answers? Thanks. Bruce Grant - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] Review Archive Announcement Date: 14 Jul 2000 20:14:00 EDT Michael Martindale: I don't suppose I can convince Jeff to quit reading until I pass him into first place, can I? _______________ Maybe a church calling would slow him down a bit? :-> <-: :-> Larry Jackson (Just funnin' here. Let's not restart the "convert Jeff" thread again.) ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Annette Lyon" Subject: [AML] Great Authors Date: 14 Jul 2000 19:03:55 -0600 After reading Tony Markham's post about who he considers to be the top 4 greatest writers, I'm curious about what others think. (About his list and about who they personally think is great.) I can agree with Tony that Shakespeare and Milton are two of the greatest writers of all time. But Yeats and Faulker? Give me a break. Sure, Yeats has some great poetry, but I don't think he is in the same league as Milton. (I think Wordsworth and Tennyson are far better.) And Faulkner is so long winded that I've always been surprised how much acclaim he gets. My gosh, almost the entire first page of _The Unvanquished_ was ONE sentence! Try writing those kinds of sentences and see if any editor will give you anything but a printed rejection slip. Faulkner did deal with some real issues, and his Yoknapatawpha County (sp?) is very real for many readers, but that doesn't make him one of the four greatest writers of all time. A good writer, maybe. In the top ten? Not even close. Another thought--since styles and perspectives change, how can we really pick the best "of all time" when we're stuck in our own views of what works today, in the year 2000? What worked well in 1800 didn't even sixty years later (think Jane Austen versus Charles Dickens, but both considered great authors of their day). Someone mentioned the opinion the _The Great Gatsby_ was considered good at the time because it appealed to the short attention span of its current audience. So what makes an author great? Longevity? The effect on the culture/world at large? Skill at producing the current style or appealing to the current audience? Somehow I don't like any of those possibilities. Annette Lyon ________________________________________________________ 1stUp.com - Free the Web Get your free Internet access at http://www.1stUp.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Annette Lyon" Subject: [AML] Genre Date: 14 Jul 2000 19:13:27 -0600 It seems to me that genre classification is sometimes arbitrary, that while some books clearly follow certain boundaries and conventions and can easily sit in a certain genre, others don't, yet are categorized in the same way. The discussion of _Tathea_ makes this point: it's been shelved with mysteries and fantasies, and yet it doesn't fully fit either description. In my own experience, I had to laugh at two rejection letters I received for the SAME manuscript: one editor said that the competition in my genre, romance, was extra fierce, but keep trying. The other suggested I try my hand at the romance genre. Go figure. In my mind, the book wasn't a romance, but it did have a romantic element. In the LDS market, it seems that if a book has even a glimpse of a romantic relationship, it is classified at a romance. The biggest example is Rachel Nunes's _Ariana_ series, which the "Romance Lady" picks all the time, yet the focus of the books is not romance. (Take the first book: yes, she eventually finds a great guy and marries him, but he doesn't even show up until the last third of the book, after Ariana has dealt with drugs, death, and a whole host of other issues, none of which are "romantic". The major theme of the second book is AIDS, yet it is still classified as a romance. Whatever. ) Perhaps the books sell better with the romance label. Just a thought Annette Lyon ________________________________________________________ 1stUp.com - Free the Web Get your free Internet access at http://www.1stUp.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: katie@www.aros.net Subject: [AML] Re: ADAMS, _Prodigal Journey_ Date: 14 Jul 2000 23:14:53 -0600 (MDT) Quoting Linda Adams : > I wrote: > >I am much more a character-based than plot-based author, and I don't like > >wading through long descriptions or paragraphs of philosophy any more than > > >the next person, so there isn't too much of that in it either. > > Ack! What a horrible run-on sentence. I meant, not too many descriptive or > philosophical passages. There IS a plot. Yes, there really is! Whoops! > Yeah, I was going to chime in something to this effect too. Don't let Linda fool you! This book has *quite* a plot! Congratulations to both Linda and Richard! If this book is any indication of what Cornerstone will produce, I think I'm going to have to read everything it comes out with. This is really exciting, guys. --Katie Parker - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Shawn and Melinda Ambrose" Subject: RE: [AML] Reading Group (was: Andrew's Poll) Date: 15 Jul 2000 04:55:32 -0400 Melissa wrote: I hesitate to volunteer to lead another online reading group, because having just had a baby I can't tell how much free time I'm going to have or even how much sleep I will be getting in the next few months. (Though the number of books I read never seems to drop just after I've had a baby; this says something about my priorities, I'm sure.) Melissa Proffitt I must add that my reading increased when I was pregnant and increased still more after the babies were born. I had a lot of time to lie around (three months morning sickness each time) and then a lot of time to sit around (nursing 11 months on up to 16 months for the youngest). But then, when I stopped nursing the time disappeared! Hmmmm. Makes me want another one! ;-) Melinda L. Ambrose - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Shawn and Melinda Ambrose" Subject: [AML] RE: Genre Date: 15 Jul 2000 04:55:39 -0400 (Edgar refers to the 'limitations' of a genre as 'boundaries'-a subtle, and not altogether meaningful distinction, IMO. How does a 'boundary' differ, meaningfully, from a 'limitation'?) Jason_______________________________________________________________________ _ I must say that a boundary, while like a limitation, is simply a perimeter which may not be crossed without consequences, a line in the sand, so to speak. A limitation is more than a mere line, it is an obstacle to be surmounted, a cliff or gully or brick wall. All right, this applies to genre fiction as opposed to mainstream fiction in that to qualify as genre fiction you must adhere to the general subject matter (who dun it) or the general plot (boy gets girl) or the general setting (outer space or fairy land). These are limitations if you want to write something that appeals to everyone, but only boundaries if you want to appeal to people who like these categories. Next subject: Have you ever noticed that spelling has a lot to do with aesthetics, the way a word looks on the page? I give the name John as an example. Jon is just as correct, phonetically, but looks childish to me. Yes, Jason, I read your whole post. It was interesting. Melinda L. Ambrose - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Shawn and Melinda Ambrose" Subject: RE: [AML] What Can AML-List Do for Me? Date: 15 Jul 2000 04:55:42 -0400 Another odd little commonality--these were all men. Are we more apt to lose our (rational) minds than women? Are we gents more prone to let go of will and surrender our volition to visions? Not to get Barbara H. after me with a sharpened pencil, but, as I pushed my little mower around and around in an ever-constricting gyre, I wondered: Could this ability to let go and allow the spirit (of whatever) to possess us, possibly, have anything to do with our being allowed to exercise our priesthood while the women are disallowed from exercising theirs? Luckily all I had to do was ask my wife and she told me no. TGMN will likely be visionary, and written by someone who knows a thing or two about metrical language. Not that you (whoever) shouldn't give it a shot. A person's reach should always exceed their grasp. It's called striving for perfection. Tony It is indeed curious that the vast majority of "great" writers have been men... but then, the vast majority of "great" mothers have been women, and you cannot tell me that motherhood grants you time for writing. We have to steal time for writing from other activities, things like eating, sleeping, washing clothes and faces, hugging and consoling and teaching and laughing and living. I also think that many women could write circles around the great writers, if they made it a priority to do so. It's not a high priority to me at this time in my life because I have children to raise and a husband to care for and scriptures to memorize. I would like to be like Elder Bruce R. McConkie, who could quote scriptures for chapters at a time, not to show off, but to understand them fully. Good night! Melinda L. Ambrose - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KGrant100@aol.com Subject: [AML] Movie Ratings Date: 15 Jul 2000 10:15:20 EDT >Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 17:24:33 -0500 >From: "Darvell" >Subject: [AML] Movings Ratings >I just read an article on the Deseret News web site that appeared in the >Los Angelos Daily News regarding the financial success (or the lack >thereof) of rated-R movies. While listening to a Christian radio station (www.klove.com), I heard something similar about the low revenues generated by R-rated films. The news item I heard cited a study by a UC Irvine professor of economics. With a little searching, I was able to locate it online in PDF format: http://aris.ss.uci.edu/mbs/personnel/devany/Web/Papers/r-rated.pdf The paper is entitled, "Does Hollywood Make Too Many R-rated Movies? Risk, Stochastic Dominance, and the Illusion of Expectation," and the authors are A. De Vany and W. D. Walls. De Vany described the paper as follows: "My latest paper on the movies estimates the probability distributions of budgets, revenues, returns and profits to G-, PG-, PG13-, and R-rated movies. The distributions are non-Gaussian and show a self-similar stable Paretian form with non-finite variance and non-stationary mean. We stochastically rank these distributions to investigate film critic Michael Medved's argument that Hollywood overproduces R-rated movies." If you're interested in more research on motion pictures by this professor, point your brower to http://aris.ss.uci.edu/mbs/personnel/devany/devany.html and scroll down to the link "Motion Pictures." (The link to the PDF file is also on this page.) Interesting stuff! Kathy P. S. Thanks to all who responded to my request for anecdotes for the _Ensign_ article on singles. Last Thursday I had a long session with the editor and got some great feedback. So now I'm on to more revising :) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: [AML] Re: ADAMS, _Prodigal Journey_ Date: 15 Jul 2000 10:11:23 -0600 Richard R Hopkins wrote: > Amazon is a bit difficult to work with, so we'll see. How is Amazon.com hard to work with? -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] eBook Query Date: 15 Jul 2000 14:13:51 -0600 On Fri, 14 Jul 2000 15:03:46 -0600, Bruce Grant wrote: >I need to pub a textbook on Chinese (Sino-Korean) Characters, for = members of >my classes. The best format for it is electronic, eBook perhaps, = because of >its length and complexity, and because only several dozen will sell each >year. Adobe Acrobat with Web Buy and Adobe PDF Merchant would keep the = book >from being copied illegally, but PDF Merchant costs a cool $5,000. >Microsoft's MS Reader is not yet available for PCs, and I don't know = what >MS's equivalent of PDF Merchant will cost. > >Have any answers? If you're only selling a couple dozen a year, then why are you so worried about copying? How much are you charging? Since you are using if for = your classes, wouldn't it be easier to monitor copying on a more mundane = level? Like issuing key codes for accessing the download web site (like a = student ID for example). That way you can track who access your web site and whether or not they paid for the book. Electronic copying of works is easy, and even Adobe PDF Merchant isn't = going to make it impossible. You're probably better off moving your choke = point off the book. Also, it seems to me that this is probably an issue for others in your situation. Other teachers you might know. Maybe you could pool your resources and tackle the $5,000 in pieces. Maybe you can get your school= to foot the bill and make it available to all the teachers who need it. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dallas Robbins" Subject: Re: [AML] Great Authors Date: 15 Jul 2000 21:05:41 GMT Annette, I must heartily dissent against your assessment of Faulkner. His prose is sublime; every time I enter one of his novels, I feel as if I am being lifted up out of my world, and moved along an narrative rhythm to an exploration of stories, problems, and consequences, that seems unparallel in the 20th/21st century. Longs sentences have put off many people to Faulker's stories; but it would not be fair to call him long-winded. A recent article on Faulkner, in the June issue of the Atlantic Monthly, explains eloquently that: "The novelist's job - the one Faulkner designed for himself - was to 'arrest motion,' to capture in an 'inconclusive and inconcludable' sentence, one in which 'human experience' is 'reduced to literature.' This was impossible, he knew, but he was compelled to try it anyway. It was his ambition to put everything into one sentence - 'not only the present but the whole past on which it depends and which keeps overtaking the present second by second.'" Of course Faulkner knew the peril of over-reaching, as he described as "talk, talk, talk: the utter and heartbreaking stupidity of words." But as this recent article also states that Faulkner knew that the "language had to rise naturally from the thoughts and actions of characters." I see Faulkner's prose as a way to bring human experience to the expression of words as close as possible. As individuals, we usually don't think and talk in grammatical, complete, medium length sentences; nor do our actions represent coherent, complete sentences, with periods. All our actions usually flow out of the past, which ultimately is affecting our future. Time is to large, far-reaching, and unpredictable to reduce to short and medium length, grammatical sentences. Faulkner's sentences usually have the rhythm, feel, and movement of experience, and it's affect on the rest of our lives. Faulkner's style has sometimes been placed in the steam-of-consciousness technique, similar to Gertrude Stein and James Joyce, (who Faulkner thought went to far and was consumed by his own talent); but pigeon-holing him would limit our capacity to appreciate his amazing body of work. I would say that no body of work since Shakespeare encompasses and explores more human emotion, nature and experience than Faulkner. (I would admit that Dickens and Dostoevsky would make it a close three-way tie). Don't pass through this life until you read him. Dallas Robbins editor@harvestmagazine.com http://www.harvestmagazine.com P.S. Of course we all have our unique writing voices, and that should be priority in writing anything worth while. Imitating Faulkner will impress no one, and will probably get you no where. But we should explore our unique voices, in spite of grammatical conventions. >From: "Annette Lyon" >And Faulkner is so long winded that I've always >been surprised how much acclaim he gets. My gosh, almost the entire first >page of _The Unvanquished_ was ONE sentence! Try writing those kinds of >sentences and see if any editor will give you anything but a printed >rejection slip. Faulkner did deal with some real issues, and his >Yoknapatawpha County (sp?) is very real for many readers, but that doesn't >make him one of the four greatest writers of all time. A good writer, >maybe. >In the top ten? Not even close. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara@techvoice.com (Barbara R. Hume) Subject: Re: [AML] Genre Date: 15 Jul 2000 15:25:28 -0700 >It seems to me that genre classification is sometimes arbitrary, that while >some books clearly follow certain boundaries and conventions and can easily >sit in a certain genre, others don't, yet are categorized in the same way. It's more a marketing ploy than a real description of the books. I thoroughly enjoy, for example, Diana Gabaldon's Outlander series, but they do not fall comfortably into a genre. They just tell a fascinating story about some compelling characters. But publishers and booksellers and distributors are frustrated by books they can't put a label on. They don't know how to deal with them. In the same way, my expectations make me cautious about each new book in this series: they are not romances, so I can't be sure she won't kill off Jamie Fraser! When the next one comes out, I'll have to make certain he doesn't die, or else I won't buy the book. I wonder how many writers feel pressured to go in a certain direction or leave out some things they'd like to include because of the marketing need to categorize their books? The first time I wrote a novel, I meant to write a science fiction book, but it included so many elements of the romance that it was really a cross-genre thing. But to me, a story had to have those elements in it to be satisfying. How many people would like to include more romance in their adventure novels, or more mysticism in their westerns, but their editors lop off those elements so the books can fit into the cubbyhole they've been assigned to? One reason LDS fiction gets such a lukewarm reception is that writers are compelled, by editors or by their own concern, to lop off elements that might make the story richer or deeper, but would take them out of the comfortable cubbyhole of LDS fiction as perceived by LDS publishers and readers. barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] eBook Query Date: 15 Jul 2000 15:34:37 -0600 Bruce Grant wrote: > > Dear List, > > I need to pub a textbook on Chinese (Sino-Korean) Characters, for members of > my classes. The best format for it is electronic, eBook perhaps, because of > its length and complexity, and because only several dozen will sell each > year. Adobe Acrobat with Web Buy and Adobe PDF Merchant would keep the book > from being copied illegally, but PDF Merchant costs a cool $5,000. > Microsoft's MS Reader is not yet available for PCs, and I don't know what > MS's equivalent of PDF Merchant will cost. > > Have any answers? Try these guys: http://www.softlock.com They provide lock codes to your .pdf files and manage the database for you, for far less that 5K. -- Thom Duncan Read the further adventures of Moroni Smith, the LDS Indiana Jones! The long-awaited second episode in the Moroni Smith LDS adventure series, _Moroni Smith: In Search of the Gold Plates_ is now available as an e-book at the Zion's Fiction web page: http://www.zfiction.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Great Authors Date: 15 Jul 2000 15:39:43 -0600 Annette Lyon wrote: > > So what makes an author great? Longevity? Yes. Shakespeare's the man. After 500 years, his stories can still captivate audiences, whether they are done traditionally, or adapted to different formats ("West Side Story"), or turned into teen flicks: "Ten Things I Hate About You." Who in our language has produced so many good stories that continue to speak to so many people of so many different languages after so many years. -- Thom Duncan Read the further adventures of Moroni Smith, the LDS Indiana Jones! The long-awaited second episode in the Moroni Smith LDS adventure series, _Moroni Smith: In Search of the Gold Plates_ is now available as an e-book at the Zion's Fiction web page: http://www.zfiction.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Alan Mitchell" Subject: Re: [AML] Genre Date: 15 Jul 2000 16:05:48 -0600 In response to the "romance" label--my teenage daughter reads a lot of them and I noticed that if the title is in large cursive then it is romance. So whether the story is about AIDS, bulemia, stamp collecting, or a male witches' boarding school (not!)--if the title is cursive, its romance. Alan Mitchell - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Shawn and Melinda Ambrose" Subject: RE: [AML] Great Authors Date: 15 Jul 2000 23:36:26 -0400 Annette wrote: Another thought--since styles and perspectives change, how can we really pick the best "of all time" when we're stuck in our own views of what works today, in the year 2000 So what makes an author great? Longevity? The effect on the culture/world at large? Skill at producing the current style or appealing to the current audience? Somehow I don't like any of those possibilities. Reply: I'm curious to know if anyone thinks Chaucer is great. I know he's required reading for a lot of classes and that the stories he tells are interesting, but does that make him great? Is his influence due to timeliness (such good verse printed in vernacular English at the time was noteworthy, was it not?) ? I would vote for Tennyson and Washington Irving and Sir Walter Scott and Dickens and Jane Austen, but I'm sure that other authors are great in their day but less accessible to us because the language has changed. I'm thinking of Beowulf and Paradise Lost and Pilgrim's Progress-wonderful literature but at the very least plodding when you have to consciously decipher it. In this way, transparent prose will at best turn rosy and at worst turn opaque with age. I'm thinking of the old saw: John Milton wrote Paradise Lost. Then his wife died and he wrote Paradise Regained. (quoted from some kid's book report at some school, U.S.A.) Melinda L. Ambrose [MOD: As a former-quasi-medievalist, I'm going to pitch in an opinion to save a post (since List volume is running high at the moment). Chaucer is often considered as perhaps the first truly great English writer, though he had other equally gifted contemporaries: William Langland, the author of _Piers Plowman_, and the unknown poet who wrote _Pearl_ and _Sir Gawain and the Green Knight_ are generally awarded equally high marks. And with all three authors, it's not just for good stories, but for excellent style as well, together with subtle and powerful imagery, an eye for vivid detail, powerful insights into life and the inner workings of the individual, and all those other things we look for in great literature. But Chaucer wrote in a dialect that was closer to modern English, and wrote in genres that are closer to what we read today, and so he's much more widely appreciated than the others. It's much like Melinda says: the language can, and all too often does, provide a barrier to appreciation. One of the more noble pursuits of English departments, in my opinion, is to help provide readers with the tools they need to understand and appreciate great writers whose language and/or style we now need help deciphering.] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Needle Subject: Re: [AML] eBook Query Date: 15 Jul 2000 21:08:56 -0700 Can you produce the document in Word? If you can, you can get Microsoft Word Viewer, a free program from Microsoft, that will allow you to view any Word document without having Word on your computer. It's what I use for my free Scripture Quad program. It's just great, and doesn't cost a cent. If you need more info, let me know. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Needle Subject: Re: [AML] Review Archive Announcement Date: 15 Jul 2000 21:10:54 -0700 At 08:14 PM 7/14/00 EDT, you wrote: >Michael Martindale: > >I don't suppose I can convince Jeff to quit reading until I >pass him into first place, can I? > >_______________ > >Maybe a church calling would slow him down a bit? > > :-> <-: :-> > >Larry Jackson > > >(Just funnin' here. Let's not restart the "convert Jeff" thread again.) > Howl!!! Great comment. Did anyone catch Pres. Hinckley at a press conference a few months ago? Someone in the audience was obviously a member, complaining about Church callings taking him away from his family. Hinckley's answer was, "You have too many callings." Great answer. --------------- Jeff Needle jeff.needle@general.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "bob/bernice hughes" Subject: [AML] Great Authors Date: 16 Jul 2000 06:23:52 MDT Annette Lyon wrote: "But Yeats and Faulker? Give me a break. Sure, Yeats has some great poetry, but I don't think he is in the same league as Milton. (I think Wordsworth and Tennyson are far better.)" Just a brief diversion here, not to detract from the original request... I think Yeats is better than Wordsworth. Wordsworth is one of my favorites, but after investing a lot of time reading the two, I find that Yeats connects with me as a reader, while Wordsworth is off wandering lonely as a cloud o’er some vale and hill. Other readers realized this long ago, too. J.K. Stephen parodied Wordsworth in a sonnet written 120+ years ago, yet I find it captures somewhat my own sentiments. I share Stephen's parody below: A Sonnet TWO voices are there: one is of the deep; It learns the storm-cloud's thunderous melody, Now roars, now murmurs with the changing sea, Now bird-like pipes, now closes soft in sleep: And one is of an old half-witted sheep Which bleats articulate monotony, And indicates that two and one are three, That grass is green, lakes damp, and mountains steep: And, Wordsworth, both are thine: at certain times Forth from the heart of thy melodious rhymes, The form and pressure of high thoughts will burst: At other times--good Lord! I'd rather be Quite unacquainted with the ABC Than write such hopeless rubbish as thy worst. This sonnet parodies a couple of Wordsworth's best known sonnets (and the parody is a well-crafted sonnet, too). Specifically, Wordsworth’s "Thought of a Briton on the Subjugation of Switzerland" begins with the lines: TWO Voices are there; one is of the sea, One of the mountains; each a mighty Voice: In both from age to age thou didst rejoice, They were thy chosen music, Liberty! And Wordsworth's "The World is Too Much With Us" includes these lines: It moves us not.--Great God! I'd rather be A Pagan suckled in a creed outworn; So might I, standing on this pleasant lea, Have glimpses that would make me less forlorn; Stephen's parody is perfect. I especially like his "good Lord!" at a turn of the poem mocking Wordsworth's "Great God!" And he simply nailed the problem with Wordsworth. Of course, much of Yeats is so dense and mystical that it is incomprehensible, but when Yeats gets it right, he is much better than Wordsworth. For example, I have been out in the extreme elements in many situations, and Yeats' "Mad as the Mist and Snow" captures the emotion, the thrill, the exhilaration that I sometimes feel far better than any of Wordsworth's poems, even though Wordsworth fancies himself "Nature’s Priest." Maybe it's a guy thing. Yeats' "The Song of Wandering Aengus" connects with guys in a very deep way; you feel his "Lake Isle of Innisfree" in the deep heart’s core. No, it's not a guy thing. My wife loves to hear me recite Yeats' "To an Isle in the Water" since it connects with women in a very deep way. Now Tennyson is another story. But that's for another diversion... Regards, Bob Hughes ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Mormon Short Stories (Andrew's Poll) Date: 16 Jul 2000 22:23:16 JST Time for Andrew's Poll to turn its gaze to short stories. I'd like for you to tell us what your favorite (I'll stay away from the word "best") Mormon short stories and story collections from the 1990s have been. You can vote in the following categories: Mormon short story-general Mormon short story-speculative fiction Mormon short story-juvenile Mormon short story collection (single author) Mormon short story anthology (multiple authors) Of course you don't need to vote in all of the categories, just as many as you want. And if you demand to create your own category, go ahead and try. Individual stories need to have been published somewhere, like a magazine, story collection, or web magazine, in 1990-1999. Any story by a Mormon is applicable, as are stories about Mormons by non-Mormons. I won't bother going through the nomination process this time. I list all the possible short story collections and anthologies I can think of below. I think I have them all covered, tell me if I left someone out. As for the individual stories, why bother nominating them? Just go ahead and tell us what your favorite story or stories are. Also tell us, if you remember, where and when it was published. And again, please vote. I don't have time to read everything, and I'd love to hear your reccomendations. Short story collections (single author): Phillys Barber, The School of Love. University of Utah, 1990. Phillys Barber, How I Got Cultured: A Nevada Memoir. University of Georgia, 1992. Phillys Barber, Parting the Veil: Stories from a Mormon Imagination. Signature, 1999. John Bennion. Breeding Leah and Other Stories. Signature, 1991. Orson Scott Card. Maps in a Mirror: The Short Fiction of Orson Scott Card. TOR, 1990 Orson Scott Card. Monkey Sonatas. TOR, 1993. Fantasy. Orson Scott Card. The Changed Man, TOR, 1992. "Tales of dread." Orson Scott Card. Cruel Miracles. TOR, 1992. Religious stories. Orson Scott Card. Flux : Tales of Human Futures. TOR, 1992. Science fiction. Mary Clyde. Survival Rates. University of Georgia, 1999. Brian Evenson. Altmann's Tongue. Knopf, 1994. Brian Evenson. Prophets and Brothers. Rodent Press, 1997. Stories with Mormon themes or characters. Brian Evenson. The Din of Celestial Birds, Wordcraft, 1997. Stories set in South America. Michael Fillerup. Visions and Other Stories. Signature, 1990. Lewis Horne. What Do Ducks Do in the Winter? and other western stories. Signature, 1993. Walter Kirn. My Hard Bargain, Knopf, 1990. Levi Peterson. Night Soil. Signature, 1990. Paul Rawlins. No Lie Like Love. University of Georgia, 1996. Darrell Spencer. Our Secret's Out. University of Missouri, 1993. Brady Udall. Letting Loose the Hounds. Norton, 1998. Margaret Blair Young. Elegies and Lovesongs. University of Idaho, 1992 Margaret Blair Young. Love Chains. Signature, 1997. Short story anthologies: Christmas for the World. ed. by Curtis Taylor and Stan Zenk, Aspen, 1991. Bright Angels and Familiars. ed. by Eugene England, Signature, 1992. Washed by a Wave of the Wind: Stories from the Corridor. ed. by M. Shayne Bell, Signature, 1993. Turning Hearts: Short Stories on Family Life. ed. by Orson Scott Card and David Dollahite, Bookcraft, 1994. Great and Peculiar Beauty: A Utah Reader. Ed. Thomas Lyon and Terry Tempest Williams. Gibbs Smith, 1995. Once Upon A Christmastime. Deseret, 1997. In Our Lovely Deseret: Mormon Fictions. Edited by Robert Raleigh. Signature, 1998. >From the Outside Looking In. edited by Chris Crowe. Bookcraft, 1998. Please get your votes in over the next two weeks. I'll try to wrap it up around the end of the month. Andrew Hall Nagareyama, Japan (for one more month) ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] (Biblio File) Mormon Short Stories Date: 16 Jul 2000 22:33:43 JST In preparation for this month's Andrew's Poll, I'm doing a Biblio File on Mormon short story collections (not short stories in general, that would be too hard). The Mormon short story is a much smaller genre than novels, with a much more limited audience. For the most part the "adult popular" wing of Mormon fiction, represented by the authors published by Deseret, Bookcraft, and Covenant, is dominated by novels. Those authors and presses have published very few short stories, representing, I assume, the reading tastes of their audience. Short stories have instead been produced largely in three separate fields, "literary", speculative, and juvenile, each with its own central magazines providing a consistent forum for publications. Well, first let's go back a little. The first significant Mormon short story authors I can think of were the "Lost Generation" authors, in particular Virginia Sorensen. Although she is mostly known for her novels, she also wrote a collection of autobiographical stories, published as Where Nothing is Long Ago: Memories of a Utah Childhood, 1963. Maurine Whipple also wrote several unpublished stories, which were discovered soon before she died. They were to be published as Maurine Whipple: The Lost Works, edited by Veda Halle and Lavina Fielding Anderson, by Aspen Press, but I haven't heard anything about the project for a while. It may have died with Aspen Press. Two of the stories have been published, in the Christmas for the World and Bright Angels and Familiars anthologies. Sam Taylor also published a few short stories. The modern wave of short story authors began with BYU students (and later BYU professors) Donald Marshall and Douglas Thayer in the late 1960s. It is not a coincidence that their careers came to fruition at the same time that the start of the independent Mormon journal Dialogue, which began publication in 1966, followed by Sunstone, which was created around 1974 (? I forget exactly when). These journals provided a forum for Mormon authors from the "literary" wing, publishing one or two, sometimes three or four stories an issue. Donald Marshall. The Rummage Sale. Heirloom, 1972. Donald Marshall. Frost in the Orchard. BYU Press, 1977. Thayer, Douglas. Under the Cottonwoods and Other Mormon Stories. Fankson, 1977. In the late 70s there was a small spate of books published that were made up of connected short stories, stories in chronological order about a central character or group of characters. All of the authors were BYU related people. Farmer, Gladys Clark. Elders and Sisters. Seagull Books, 1977. Stories about missionaries in France. Kump, Eileen Gibbons. Bread and Milk. BYU Press, 1979. Stories about frontier-era Utah. Petsco, Bela. Nothing Very Important and Other Stories. Orion, 1979. Missionary short stories. Clark, Marden J. Morgan Triumphs. Orion, 1984. About a man growing up. Almost a novel. Also, it wasn't published, but Donna Christine Ackerson also wrote a collection of connected missionary stories for a BYU MA thesis, Tales from the Tracting Book. 1977. Oddly enough, none of these authors seem to have published much fiction after these works. Although Marden Clark has written a lot of other things, poems and essays. Also, Harlow seems to have some connection to most of them in some way or another. All of the collections up to this point were published by BYU Press or small Utah based publishers. I think Orion Press, which published several interesting things in the late 1970s and early 1980s, is the same, or at least some kind of forerunner, of Signature Press. Several of the Orion books are now in the Signature catalogue. In 1982 one of our most celebrated writers, Levi Peterson, had his first short story collection, The Canyons of Grace, published by the University of Illinois Press. It was the first collection published by a non-Utah national press. Around 1989-1992 there was a remarkable boom in short story collections by Mormon authors, mostly published by national presses. Eugene England called 1989-1990 the "annus mirabilis" (I guess that is a good thing) of Mormon fiction, with "nearly as much first-rate Mormon fiction published as in the previous ten years." Phillys Barber, The School of Love. University of Utah, 1990. Phillys Barber, How I Got Cultured: A Nevada Memoir. University of Georgia, 1992. Bennion, John. Breeding Leah and Other Stories. Signature, 1991. Card, Orson Scott. The Folk of the Fringe. Phantasia Press/Tor, 1989. Card, Orson Scott. The Worthing Saga. Tor, 1990. Card, Orson Scott. Maps in a Mirror: The Short Fiction of Orson Scott Card, TOR, 1990. Chandler, Neal. Benediction. University of Utah, 1989. Fillerup, Michael, Visions and Other Stories. Signature, 1990. Freeman, Judith, Family Attractions. Viking, 1988. Kirn, Walter. My Hard Bargain, Knopf, 1990. Mortensen, Pauline. Back Before the World Turned Nasty. University of Arkansas, 1989. Peterson, Levi. Night Soil. Signature, 1990. Sillitoe, Linda. Windows on the Sea. Signature, 1989. Spencer, Darrell. Woman Packing a Pistol. Dragon Gate, 1987. Douglas Thayer, Mr. Wahlquist in Yellowstone and Other Stories. Gibbs Smith, 1989. Young, Margaret Blair. Elegies and Lovesongs. University of Idaho, 1992. Things slowed down a little after that. Signature kept putting out collections every couple of years, and Brian Evenson put out three collections. Spencer, Darrell. Our Secret's Out. University of Missouri, 1993. Horne, Lewis. What Do Ducks Do in the Winter? and other western stories. Signature, 1993. Evenson, Brian. Altmann's Tongue. Knopf, 1994. Rawlins, Paul. No Lie Like Love University of Georgia Press, 1996. Brian Evenson, Prophets and Brothers. Rodent Press, 1997. Chapbook. Brian Evenson, The Din of Celestial Birds, Wordcraft, 1997. Margaret Blair Young, Love Chains. Signature, 1997. Udall, Brady. Letting Loose the Hounds. Norton, 1998. Phillys Barber, Parting the Veil: Stories from a Mormon Imagination. Signature, 1999. Clyde, Mary. Survival Rates. University of Georgia, 1999. Signature has been basically the only Mormon press to publish short story collections by a single author in the 1990s. The Signature published books often had Mormon characters and situations, while the non-Signature ones tended not to have those situations. For example, compare the stories in Margaret Young's University of Idaho Press collection in 1992 with her 1999 on with Signature. Most of Evenson, Udall, and Rawlins stories don't use specifically Mormon characters or situations. Do you notice all the books published by the University of Georgia? Three in the 1990s, plus one by Darrell Spencer in 2000. I wonder what the connection is? I know some of them were Flannery O'Conner award winners, maybe that has something to do with it. There are two other active genres of short stories, juvenile and speculative fiction. Juvenile short stories have been helped by the fact that the Friend and New Era publish stories every month. Many of those authors have gone on to publish juvenile novels, but the only one to publish short story collections has been Jack Weyland. His stories have been collected in four books: First Day of Forever and Other Stories of LDS Youth. Horizon, 1980. Punch and Cookies Forever. Horizon, 1981 A Small Light in the Darkness : And Other Short Stories. Deseret, 1987. Night on Lone Wolf Mountain and Other Short Stories. Deseret, 1996. Weyland won a 1983 AML special award for his fiction. Also, an anthology of New Era stories, From the Outside Looking In, edited by Chris Crowe, was published by Bookcraft in 1998. Speculative fiction. Of course Card was the trailblazer. He published lots of stories in the 1970s and 1980s, almost all of which were collected in the hardcover Maps in a Mirror: The Short Fiction of Orson Scott Card, TOR, 1990. The collection was broken up into four separate books with different themes (science fiction, fantasy, horror, and religious) for the paperbacks. Also his "Mormon Lake" stories are collected in The Folk of the Fringe, Phantasia Press/Tor, 1989, and "Worthing" stories in The Worthing Saga, Tor, 1990. An earlier collection, Cardography (Hypatia Press, 1987), contained stories later incorporated in Maps in a Mirror. He has only written a few stories in the 1990s, focusing on novels instead. There have been lots of other speculative authors, many of which were trained at BYU, publishing their stories in the student-run magazine The Leading Edge, which began publishing in 1981. There were three volumes of the science fiction anthology LDSF, published in 1982, 1985, and 1987, by Millennial Productions and Parables Press. Many have gone on to become nationally published authors, but none of them have their own short story collections yet. M. Shayne Bell has probably had the most published stories, usually with a couple a year in magazines like "Asimov's". Many of the authors were represented in Washed by a Wave of the Wind: Stories from the Corridor. ed. by M. Shayne Bell, Signature, 1993. For an anthology of Mormon speculative fiction authors, see Marny and Scott Parkin's bibliography (http://home.airswitch.net/MormonBib/) Oh, I guess you could also go back to Raymond F. Jones, who was a prolific writer in the national SF market since the late 1940s. Also Zenna Henderson's 40 or so stories on Mormon-like aliens called "The People" in the 1950s-1970s. They were collected in Ingathering: The Complete People Stories of Zenna Henderson. NESFA Press, 1995. Anthologies There have also a few anthologies of fiction. The first was A Believing People: Literature of the Latter-day Saints. ed. by Richard Cracroft and Neal Lambert, Bookcraft, 1974. It was created as a textbook for a Mormon lit class at BYU. It has short stories by Thayer and Marshall, as well as plays, poems, essays, and novel excerpts. The same two editors also put out the short story collection Twenty-two Young Mormon Writers (Communications Workshop, 1975). Next came Greening Wheat: Fifteen Mormon Short Stories. ed. by Levi Peterson, Orion, 1983. Authors included Wayne Carver, Kevin Cassity, R. A. Christmas, Dennis Clark, Kent Farnsworth, Sibyl Johnston, Bruce W. Jorgensen, Eileen Gibbons Kump, Lynne Larson, Donald R. Marshall, Joseph Peterson, Karen Rosenbaum, Linda Sillitoe, and David Lane Wright. We had quite a few collections in the early 1990s. First _Christmas for the World_. ed. by Curtis Taylor and Stan Zenk, Aspen, 1991. It had stories and some poems about Christmas, most of which involved Mormon culture and situations. Then came _Bright Angels and Familiars_, ed. by Eugene England, Signature, 1992. It aimed to be a kind of "Best of Mormon Short Stories", and really is the definitive collection so far. _Washed by a Wave of the Wind: Stories from the Corridor_. ed. by M. Shayne Bell, Signature, 1993. Science fiction from Great Basin authors. About half of the stories were Mormon-related. _Turning Hearts: Short Stories on Family Life_. ed. by Orson Scott Card and David Dollahite, Bookcraft, 1994. _Great and Peculiar Beauty: A Utah Reader_. Ed. Thomas Lyon and Terry Tempest Williams. Gibbs Smith, 1995. Hundreds of selections of diaries, essays, short stories and poems about Utah, for the State Centennial. _Once Upon A Christmastime_. Deseret, 1997. Various Christmas stories, with selections by Margaret Young, Kathryn Kidd, Jack Weyland, Benson Parkinson, and others. _In Our Lovely Deseret: Mormon Fictions_. Edited by Robert Raleigh. Signature, 1998. Unlike the other collections listed, the stories in this one almost seem to vie for being the most shocking and irreverent. Ron Carlson, Walter Kirn, Brian Evenson, Levi Peterson, Pauline Mortensen, Phyllis Barber, Rob Van Wagoner, Dorothy Solomon, Helen Jones, Johnny Townsend, Jan Stucki, Kristen Rogers, Dawn Houghton, Derek Gullino, Lee Ann Mortensen, Joanna Brooks, Bob Bringhurst, and Kathryn Egan. _From the Outside Looking In_. edited by Chris Crowe. Bookcraft, 1998. Christmas for the World, Turning Hearts: Short Stories on Family Life, and Once Upon A Christmastime each contain several stories by "adult popular" authors who have not published many short stories, and are as close as we have come to collections of stories from that wing of authors. A word on Magazines: The older Church magazines, like The Era and the Relief Society Magazine, published fiction, but I think most of the pieces were serialized novels. The Ensign published a few short stories in the 1970s. Especially of note is the July 1977 issue, a special issue on the arts, with lots of stories, poetry, and art. This was when Orson Scott Card was an Assistant Editor there. I think this was the one where President Kimball wrote about "Shakespeares and Miltons of our own." Not much fiction has appeared in the Ensign since 1970s, and it even stopped publishing poetry at some point, I think. The New Era and Friends still publish fiction, though. As I mentioned, Dialogue and Sunstone have been our most consistent sources of quality short stories. BYU Studies has also published short stories here and there since Clinton Larson helped to found it in 1956. There have been a few literary magazines at BYU over the years. I won't try to list them all. I am aware of Century II, which published student works around 1979-1980, and Inscape, the English Department's current creative writing journal which has been around since at least 1981. The more recent issues of Inscape can be found on the BYU web page. Also, as I mentioned, the speculative fiction writing wing at BYU is served by The Leading Edge, which has been around since 1981. I found a Brian Evenson story from when he was a BYU student in the back issues. Irreantum, AML's literary magazine which began publication in 1999, is the second attempt at launching a Mormon literary magazine. The first was Wasatch Review International, 1993-1996. I believe Tory Anderson was the editor-in-chief. I seem to be cursed with Mormon journals. I sent subscription checks to WRI and This People at just about the time when they folded, sucking up my money with them. This week I just got my subscription check to Irreantum back in the mail. I sent it six months ago, but messed up the address, and it had wandered around between Japan and Utah since then. I thought my parents had been hoarding the issues. I'll try again. Weber Studies, a journal from Weber State University (I'm not sure if it is still around or not), did a special issue on Mormon fiction around 1992 or so. This People was a mainly non-fiction magazine whose articles and columns ranged from fantastic to dreadful at any time (it was pretty good around 1988-1991), limping along financially throughout the 1980s and 1990s, finally folding around 1998. It ran an occasional short story, including a couple by Orson Scott Card, if I remember correctly. As far as Mormon fiction, the most notable thing about it was Eugene England's column in the 1990s on recent Mormon books. Short stories and collections which have won AML awards (I am missing a couple): 1978: Award for Short Story: Douglas Thayer, stories from Under the Cottonwoods (Provo, Utah: Frankson Press, 1977; Sandy, Utah, Orion Press, 1977.) Award for Short Story: Donald Marshall, stories from Frost in the Orchard (Provo, Utah: BYU Press, 1977; Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1985) 1979: Award in Fiction -- First Prize Levi S. Peterson. "The Confessions of Augustine." Denver Quarterly Winter (1978); "Road to Damascus." Dialogue 11.4 (178): 88-99. (Later included in The Canyons of Grace.) Award in Fiction -- Honorable Mention Karen Rosenbaum. "Hit the Frolicking, Rippling Brooks." Dialogue 11.3 (1978): 65-71. (Collected in Bright Angels and Familiars) 1980: Award in Fiction Bela Petsco. Nothing Very Important and Other Stories. Provo: Meservydale Publishing Co., 1979. 1982: Robert A. Christmas. "Another Angel." Dialogue 14.2 (1981): 117-31. 1983: Award in Fiction--Short Story Levi S. Peterson. The Canyons of Grace. Urbana: University of Chicago Press, 1982. 1984: Award in Fiction--Short Story Neal C. Chandler. "Benediction." Dialogue 18.2 (1985): 152-166. "The Only Divinely Authorized Plan for Financial Success in this Life or the Next." Dialogue 18.3 (1985): 130-137. (Collected in Benediction.) 1988: Award in Fiction--Short Story Darrel Spencer. A Woman Packing a Pistol. Port Townsend, WA: Dragon Gate, 1987. 1989: Award in Fiction--Short Story Pauline Mortensen. Back Before the World Turned Nasty. Fayetteville: University of Arkansas Press, 1989. 1990: Award in Fiction--Short Story Walter Kirn. My Hard Bargain. New York: Knopf, 1990. 1991 Award in Fiction--Short Story Michael Fillerup. "Lost and Found." Christmas for the World: A Gift for the Children. Salt Lake City: Aspen Books, 1991. 1993: Short story Washed by a Wave of the Wind: Stories from the Corridor. ed. by M. Shayne Bell, Signature, 1993. 1994: Award in Fiction--Short Story Wayne Jorgensen. "Who Tarzan, Who Jane." High Plains Literary Review 9:1 (Spring, 1994): 6-30. 1995: Short Story Anderson, Tory, "Epiphany" Dialogue, Fall 1995. 1997: Short Story Rawlins, Paul. No Lie Like Love University of Georgia Press, 1996. (Also won the Flannery O'Conner award). 1998: Short Story Jones, Helen Walker. "The Six-Buck Fortune". in In Our Lovely Deseret, 1998. 1999: Short Story Clyde, Mary. Survival Rates. University of Georgia, 1999. (Also won the Flannery O'Conner award). Andrew Hall ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Todd Robert Petersen" Subject: Re: [AML] Great Authors Date: 16 Jul 2000 13:17:45 -0500 The best thing about lists of greatness is that they polarize people. Wordsworth and Tennyson were sissies--Coleridge too. Blake and Keats took them all to school. Eliot is better than Dickens or Austen, but not better than Hardy or George Sand. Faulkner is better than anybody except when he sucks (i.e. Chapter iv of "The Bear"). Milton is boring; give me Dante over that blind Satan-bibber any day. GATSBY was a fluke. So was MADAME BOVARY, but not HEART OF DARKNESS. Yeats is great except when he's rhyming. T.S. Eliot is good except for the Cats fiasco and his religious turn. Stevens was far and away better than either. HD could run laps around Pound. Hemingway was phenomenal except when he tried to write novels. FOR WHOM THE BELL TOLLS should have been lost when Hadley lost the early short story manuscripts. James was trapped in a man's body (I refer you to "Daisy Miller" and PORTRAIT OF A LADY). Woolf's prose is so good in her essays that it makes one wonder how it could curdle so much in her fiction. Almost all contemporary writing in America is garbage, except for Cormac McCarthy, Barry Lopez, Carole Maso, and Louise Gluck. Throw in Cynthia Ozick and John Hawkes as not garbage. Ron Carlson isn't bad, but he's inconsistent. Same with Richard Ford and Lorrie Moore and Billy Collins. Outside America Marquez and William Trevor take the cake, and so does Alice Munro. Most LDS writing is as bad as most Baptist writing, which is sad because we have the truth and they can't watch Disney movies. That should give us an edge. The Jews and the Catholics have us beat, hands down. Were neither weird nor persecuted anymore, so we lose that handicap. I like Terry Tempest Williams and Doug Thayer's work when he sends it to me. Italo Calvino is better at everything than anyone else except for Borges and Kafka and also maybe Chekhov and O'Connor, but not Bret Easton Ellis, though Ellis makes lots of money and carouses around Manhattan with Jay McInerney like a couple of palookas from a Jack Kerouac novel (who is awful when you think of how amazing Richard Brautigan was). Katherine Anne was brilliant but Katherine Mansfield wasn't. Swift is to Rabalais as Boccacio is to Chaucer as Euripides is to Sophocles. Homer blew it the first time out but made up for it with the ODYSSEY. Twain was a hoot until he met the Mormons and turned bitter. Dos Passos couldn't write a smooth sentence if Nabokov put a gun to his head and cocked it. I wish Calvino were LDS, because he'd be better than any of us. IF ON A WINTER'S NIGHT A TRAVELLER is the closest thing we have structurally to the Book of Mormon. But seriously, Todd Robert Petersen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jason Steed" Subject: Re: [AML] Genre Date: 16 Jul 2000 19:18:50 PDT >It seems to me that genre classification is sometimes arbitrary, that while >some books clearly follow certain boundaries and conventions and can easily >sit in a certain genre, others don't, yet are categorized in the same way. >The discussion of _Tathea_ makes this point: it's been shelved with >mysteries and fantasies, and yet it doesn't fully fit either description. Yes, I agree. This is a VERY common phenomenon. "Genres" often become pigeon holes, and publishers/promoters/booksellers all to frequently cram square pegs into round pigeon holes--for the purpose of sales. >In my own experience, I had to laugh at two rejection letters I received >for >the SAME manuscript: one editor said that the competition in my genre, >romance, was extra fierce, but keep trying. The other suggested I try my >hand at the romance genre. Go figure. In my mind, the book wasn't a >romance, but it did have a romantic element. That's hilarious! > >In the LDS market, it seems that if a book has even a glimpse of a romantic >relationship, it is classified at a romance. The biggest example is Rachel >Nunes's _Ariana_ series, which the "Romance Lady" picks all the time, yet >the focus of the books is not romance. (Take the first book: yes, she >eventually finds a great guy and marries him, but he doesn't even show up >until the last third of the book, after Ariana has dealt with drugs, death, >and a whole host of other issues, none of which are "romantic". The major >theme of the second book is AIDS, yet it is still classified as a romance. >Whatever. ) Perhaps the books sell better with the romance label. Most likely they do--or at least the publisher THINKS they do/will. Sales is always the primary factor in choosing which shelf to put a book on in the bookstore. Octavia Butler is an African American writer who has written some SF novels, and has an audience there--so when she writes novels that might not be classifiably SF, it still gets classified as SF because that's where her fan base is, and SF books tend to sell better than "mainstream" books. (I'm thinking of _Kindred_, about a black woman who goes back in time to the era of slavery--yes, there's time travel, but it is not 'scientific'/SF time travel, rather, it is more like a 'magical realism' sort of time travel, if you accept the definition of magical realism which posits that it 'makes the magical seem real and the real seem magical.' Other than the time travel, nothing else in the book is remotely SF.) I think genres are important, because understanding them (their conventions, how they work, etc.) can help us understand writing in general and to appreciate its many forms and modes. But like any good thing, overdoing it is dangerous. Too much sun makes a desert. We tend to over-categorize, and then we get excited (a new book "transcends its genre") or infuriated (a new book "doesn't know what it wants to be") when someone 'transgresses' the boundaries we construct. While on the one hand I like to talk about genres and how they are constructed/defined, and the pros and cons of this one or that one--on the OTHER hand, I'd like to do away with them all together. A big part of me says, "Writing is writing." I wouldn't even delineate between fiction and nonfiction. Every "fictional" piece contains facts, at least some element of autobiography, and might even be construed as criticism (i.e. every novel written is a piece of literary criticism on how a novel should be written); and every "nonfictional" piece is created (thus, "creative") and is a reconstructed version of _a_ reality, making it no different from the attempt at mimesis Aristotle spoke of when he spoke of the nature of art. But, for the sake of Barnes&Noble, et al, we divide literature into floor plans. J.P. Steed English Department, UNLV 4505 Maryland Pkwy, Box 455011 Las Vegas, NV 89154-5011 jpsteed@hotmail.com http://complabs.nevada.edu/~stee6515 _________________ "God created man because he loves stories." -- Elie Wiesel "There is no story that is not true." -- Chinua Achebe ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jason Steed" Subject: Re: [AML] Great Authors Date: 16 Jul 2000 19:49:59 PDT >After reading Tony Markham's post about who he considers to be the top 4 >greatest writers, I'm curious about what others think. (About his list and >about who they personally think is great.) I may be defending Tony unnecessarily, but I don't think he was suggesting these were THE four greatest writers of all time--I think he was saying they are four OF the greatest, whose names he happened to think of (I think it was while mowing the lawn??). >I can agree with Tony that >Shakespeare and Milton are two of the greatest writers of all time. But >Yeats and Faulker? Give me a break. Sure, Yeats has some great poetry, but >I >don't think he is in the same league as Milton. (I think Wordsworth and >Tennyson are far better.) While Yeats may not be Milton, and while he may not even be Wordsworth (though this is more disputable), I think the entire academy (of literary scholars/critics, etc.) would agree hands down that Yeats is far superior to Tennyson, at least in terms of importance and influence. >And Faulkner is so long winded that I've always >been surprised how much acclaim he gets. My gosh, almost the entire first >page of _The Unvanquished_ was ONE sentence! Try writing those kinds of >sentences and see if any editor will give you anything but a printed >rejection slip. Long sentences mean he's less than great? Have you read James Joyce? Again, the bulk of the academy would most likely agree that Joyce is the 'greatest' writer since Shakespeare, and in Joyce long sentences abound. The last section of _Ulysses_ is I-don't-know-how-many pages long (30? 40? 50?) and comprised of exactly eight (8) sentences. Yet it is considered the "greatest" novel ever written. >Faulkner did deal with some real issues, and his >Yoknapatawpha County (sp?) is very real for many readers, but that doesn't >make him one of the four greatest writers of all time. A good writer, >maybe. >In the top ten? Not even close. It sounds like you're really talking about personal preferences--matters of taste. In matters of taste, Joyce is not my favorite author, and _Ulysses_ is not my favorite novel. But "my favorite" and "great" are not the same thing. Faulkner IS one of my personal favorites; but he is also "great"--and most critics/scholars will agree on this. Clearly, he is not one of your favorites, and that's okay. But we should be clear on this--because claiming he's "not even close" to the top ten (when some could and would argue that he is most definitely among that group, especially if we're narrowing the field to fiction writers) is a bold move if you're speaking to matters that lie outside the realm of "my favorites." >Another thought--since styles and perspectives change, how can we really >pick the best "of all time" when we're stuck in our own views of what works >today, in the year 2000? What worked well in 1800 didn't even sixty years >later (think Jane Austen versus Charles Dickens, but both considered great >authors of their day). The fact that we're trapped in the tastes and contexts of our present day is inescapable. And what is considered "great" DOES, in fact, change over time. Your mention of Tennyson is a great example. He was lauded in his time, considered one of England's finest poets ever; but early in the 20th century, the Modernists dismissed him as too sentimental, and his stock with the academy has never fully recovered. Longfellow is an even more extreme example; he, too, was lauded in his time as one of America's greatest poets ever (perhaps THE greatest--our poetry history was short)--but now, he's not even read in high schools, let alone universities. And the Romantics (you mentioned Wordsworth)--they were all but ignored through the Victorian age, and most of the Modern period, until resurrected virtually single-handedly by Harold Bloom (a literary critic) sometime after WWII. These days, the academy operates from a 'postmodern' context, in/from which it is actually considered very unpopular to speak of "classics" or "great" works of literature--precisely because we recognize that making such determinations is a matter of context, and that there are, therefore, no inherently "great" works, only those that are great within/from a given context. Thus, these days, it's okay to speak of everything from John Milton to Milton Berle as "the great artist," and "great" works of literature can include _Hamlet_ and _Green Eggs and Ham_--the latter being ranked ABOVE the former, depending on the context of the ranking. >Someone mentioned the opinion the _The Great Gatsby_ >was considered good at the time because it appealed to the short attention >span of its current audience. So what makes an author great? Longevity? The >effect on the culture/world at large? Skill at producing the current style >or appealing to the current audience? Somehow I don't like any of those >possibilities. Those are only some of the possible criteria for judging a work "great"--again, it all depends on context. You're clearly speaking of "greatness" in the Modern sense (as opposed to the postmodern). In that case, the Modern mentality usually relies on "excellence of craft," "the test of time" and a strong tie to "universal truth" as criteria for judging a work to be "great." The postmodern mentality questions what is meant, exactly, by "excellence of craft" (whose excellence?) and "universal truth" (whose truth? whose universe?), and might go so far as to say Time doesn't matter. After all, it's only a magazine... J.P. Steed English Department, UNLV 4505 Maryland Pkwy, Box 455011 Las Vegas, NV 89154-5011 jpsteed@hotmail.com http://complabs.nevada.edu/~stee6515 _________________ "God created man because he loves stories." -- Elie Wiesel "There is no story that is not true." -- Chinua Achebe ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara@techvoice.com (Barbara R. Hume) Subject: Re: [AML] Genre Date: 17 Jul 2000 11:32:37 -0700 >In response to the "romance" label--my teenage daughter reads a lot of them >and I noticed that if the title is in large cursive then it is romance. So >whether the story is about AIDS, bulemia, stamp collecting, or a male >witches' boarding school (not!)--if the title is cursive, its romance. >Alan Mitchell My small grandson wants to know why all my paperbacks have a man and a lady on the cover, instead of something interesting like a horse or a train or a dog or a monster. so He's picked up a clue about genre packaging! barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] July 20th Provo dinner Date: 17 Jul 2000 11:52:08 -0700 I have noted at least five people who expressed interest in meeting for dinner in Provo on Thursday this week, July 20th. Unless someone has another suggestion, I propose we meet at 6:00 at Thai Chili Garden, 3rd East and 3rd South in Provo (phone 370-9894). I will reserve a table for 10 people, though I have only five names noted to date: Marilyn Brown D. Michael Martindale Sharlee Glenn Richard Hopkins Gae Lynn Henderson Drop me a line to confirm or add your name! Chris Bigelow, chrisb@enrich.com * * * * * * Read my novella about Mormon missionaries at http://www1.mightywords.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=EB00016373. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Maxwell" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Thesis Database Date: 17 Jul 2000 11:46:12 -0700 Thanks for the info, Chris! Sounds like everything is above-board. Do you know whether the theses will be saved as PDF files, or will the actual words be digitized? Frank Maxwell Chris wrote: > The letter said the following notice will appear on the web site in = > conjunction with the thesis: > > The right to download or print any of the pages of this thesis is granted = > by the copyright holder only for personal or classroom use. The author = > retains all proprietary rights. Any reproduction or editing by any means = > mechanical or electronic wihtout the express written permission of the = > copyright holder is strictly prohibited. Please write to the Copyright = > Permissions Office [address provided] to request permission. > > The letter notes: "We will not be granting permissions. Request from = > patrons will be forwarded to you." - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Re: Writing About Religion Date: 17 Jul 2000 14:55:24 -0600 Foot surgery, for the second straight year. But I'm mending up nicely! = Thanks for asking. Eric >>> wwbrown@burgoyne.com 07/15/00 01:31PM >>> Sorry, but I must ask--were you in an accident, Eric? So sorry about the = pain killers.( Well, so sorry about the pain, and hoping the killers are = killing it and not you.) Marilyn Brown ---------- > Eric Samuelsen (who is on lots of painkillers right now, so inclined to > ramble.) > - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: debbro@voyager.net Subject: [AML] PETERSON, _The Backslider_ Date: 17 Jul 2000 17:48:23 -0400 I've been on a reading binge lately, and in the past week read Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, and just last night finished Levi Peterson's _The Backslider_. Maybe its the heathen in me, but I loved it. I cracked up in parts, and emphasized in other parts. And after living in Fillmore for fifteen months, I could put a face with a character almost every time. Debbie Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "R.W. Rasband" Subject: [AML] LaBute's Next Film Date: 17 Jul 2000 20:51:34 GMT According to "Entertainment Weekly", BYU alum Neil LaBute's next film will be the movie version of A.S. Byatt's prize-winning novel "Posession." Gwennyth Paltrow and Ralph Finnes will star as two academics who stumble upon a mystery. R.W. Rasband Heber City, UT rrasband@hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Mormon Short Stories (Andrew's Poll) Date: 17 Jul 2000 16:11:37 -0700 Collections I've read, ranked in my personal order of voting: Walter Kirn. My Hard Bargain, Knopf, 1990. Paul Rawlins. No Lie Like Love. University of Georgia, 1996. Mary Clyde. Survival Rates. University of Georgia, 1999. Levi Peterson. Night Soil. Signature, 1990. Michael Fillerup. Visions and Other Stories. Signature, 1990. Anthologies I've read, ranked in my personal preference order: In Our Lovely Deseret: Mormon Fictions. Edited by Robert Raleigh. = Signature, 1998. Bright Angels and Familiars. ed. by Eugene England, Signature, 1992. I own but haven't yet read: Phillys Barber, The School of Love. University of Utah, 1990. Phillys Barber, How I Got Cultured: A Nevada Memoir. University of = Georgia, 1992. Phillys Barber, Parting the Veil: Stories from a Mormon Imagination. = Signature, 1999. John Bennion. Breeding Leah and Other Stories. Signature, 1991. Brady Udall. Letting Loose the Hounds. Norton, 1998. Chris Bigelow * * * * * * Read my novella about Mormon missionaries at http://www1.mightywords.com/as= p/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=3DEB00016373. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tony Markham (by way of Jonathan Langford ) Subject: [AML] Re: Good Writing Date: 18 Jul 2000 11:26:39 -0500 "Eric R. Samuelsen" wrote: > Tony Markham (a relative? I'm a Markham on my mother's side) Don't know much about the Markham genealogy--Civil War, the south, burned courthouses courtesy of General Sherman thankyouverymuch, dead ends. I'd like to be related to that Markham who was with Joseph and Hyrum at Carthage but who was sent away on an errand shortly before the mob arrived. He is only tantalizingly mentioned in the DHC. Can anybody fill me in about this guy? Eric continues: > Within a few years of the Republic, Aristotle blew him out of the water with The Poetics, and >Plato, thank heavens, hasn't been taken very seriously ever since. One of the nice things about teaching at a small college is that a person with a wide variety of interests gets to teach a wide variety of classes. Within a single academic year I will teach, oh, Film, Science Fiction, Drama, and Philosophy. Another nice thing about teaching is all the free exam copies we get from publishers trying to hawk their latest textbooks. In the course of a year I'll get from ten to twenty philosophy textbooks to peruse at my leisure. I always enjoy the sections on aesthetics. I daresay that practically every textbook that comes across my desk treats Socrates and Plato (you really can't separate the two) and their aesthetic theories with dignity and respect. These textbooks will also present counterarguments, specifically addressing Plato, from the greatest minds through the ages--Kant, Nietzsche, Fromme, to name a few--who all took Socrates/Plato quite seriously. The class discussions we have regarding the disagreement between Plato and Aristotle usually come down to the following question: Does depicting terrible things in drama (TV and movies) engender the same terrible things in society as Plato argues, or does depicting terrible things act as a catharsis to purge them out of our system and make the society a better place as Aristotle argues? This is a vital argument, going strong today, for every patron and practitioner of the arts. If people didn't take Plato's argument seriously, then the General Authorities would say to go ahead and fill your minds with porn because exposure to it doesn't affect behavior. Mapplethorpe would be exhibited at the Wilkinson Center and Evenson would still be teaching Creative Writing at the Lord's University. The people who claim that our entertainment influences our behavior may not invoke The Republic or Plato's name, but they are echoing his sentiment. Seriously. Eric continues: > His point 2 is particulary suspect, tied up as it is in risible Platonic notions of Ideal Forms. Drama, >and by extension literature, deals with an imitation of an action, a human effort to struggle with >adversity and conflict. We learn from it what we can, and we enjoy ourselves in the process. >That's Aristotle's common sense response to Plato's timorous maunderings. Besides, you don't get >the full flavor of Plato's Republic without that nasty little shot about 'weak-minded people and >children.' Unsufferable elitist snob; there are some scholars today who think the Republic is a >parody. It's so preposterous, they can't imagine an intelligent man having done it seriously. I don't >think there's a person on this List who would last three days in Plato's fascistic little paradise. He's >just not worth taking seriously, at least not in the arts. > > Eric Samuelsen Hmm. We have noted on this list that the repeated warnings from General Authorities about the dangers of R-rated films have overwhelmingly been addressed to the youth and to people who have a susceptability to Pornography. Yes, children and weak-minded people. Echoed as it is by the Lord's Annointed, I would not categorize Plato's mind-set as a "Nasty little shot" from an "Unsufferable elitist snob" leading to a "fascistic little paradise." At the heart of Plato's Republic is the search for what is good--what is good art, a good society, a good person. Yes, much of what he says has an ironic flavor, but he makes some compelling arguments couched in humor. That was his style. I'm sure that when he advocated complete equality for women in his Good Society--Equal Opportunities in Education, Government, and Career Regardless of Gender--there wasn't a man in Athens who didn't guffaw and say something like, "the Republic is a parody. It's so preposterous, we can't imagine an intelligent man having done it seriously. I don't think there's a person on this Agora who would last three days in Plato's fascistic little paradise. He's just not worth taking seriously, at least not in the social sciences." So, did the Republic ever say anything serious about what is Good? It has a bit of writing that gets excerpted and re-printed a great deal. Sometimes this passage is called "The Allegory of the Cave" and I've read it and pondered it and been moved by it more times than I'd care to remember. The Cave tells a story about a group of people chained all their lives in a darkened cave and they suppose that their limited senses tell them the truth about the world. One prisoner gets free and is able to climb into the outside world where he is, at first, overwhelmed by the light and blinded, but is eventually able to see the world as it really is. When he goes back into the cave and tries to tell the people they are living in darkness, they kill him. I suppose the moral to the story is: The light shineth on the darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not. It remains as true today as ever. One of the reasons I like the big three Early Greek Philosophers so much is that one day this odd synchronicity simply dawned on me. I don't recall ever reading it from another source, though if someone else has written on it, I'd be grateful for the reference. Socrates had some commonalities with Christ: He was a Teacher, He confounded the learned, he never wrote anything down, he was unjustly condemned to death by false witnesses in an unfair court, he could have saved himself, he died for his beliefs, and his followers continued his teachings. Plato, like any number of Christ's followers, wrote down the teachings of his master concentrating on the events of his life, the parables he told, and the principles he taught. Now along comes Aristotle, who like Paul, never actually met the master, and seemed intent on codifying the heart and soul of this philosopher into a set of rules with headers and subsections and do this and don't do that. To this day, people who like Paul are apt to like Aristotle (rules) and people who like, say, John, are apt to be more moved by Plato (principles). I'll close with a little flavor of Socrates/Plato and will quote in order to do justice (from The Cave): "But, whether true or false, my opinion is that in the world of knowledge the idea of good appears last of all, and is seen only with an effort; and, when seen, is also inferred to be the universal author of all things beautiful and right, parent of light and of the lord of light in this visible world, and the immediate source of reason and truth in the intellectual; and that this is the power upon which he who would act rationally either in public or private life must have his eye fixed." I can't read that passage in conjunction with D&C 93 and not be slack-jawed awed that a man born 500 years before Christ could distill so much truth out of thin air. Tony - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Samuel Brunson" Subject: [AML] Re: Great Authors Date: 17 Jul 2000 17:50:51 MDT > >The best thing about lists of greatness is that they polarize people. Let's polarize :) >Almost all contemporary writing in America is garbage, except for Cormac >McCarthy, Barry Lopez, Carole Maso, and Louise Gluck. Throw in Cynthia >Ozick and John Hawkes as not garbage. Ron Carlson isn't bad, but he's >inconsistent. Same with Richard Ford and Lorrie Moore and Billy Collins. McCarthy I like. He'd go up there on my list of prettiest writers, along with Charles Frazier and Hemingway. My list of greatness, though, would include only twentieth century writing, and mostly latter half of. David Foster Wallace makes my list for pure pyrotechnic writing, and Thomas Pynchon for the best joke that I almost get. My only Brit would be Tom Stoppard (he takes Shakespeare's spot), and Ishmael Reed would have to be on the list. Don DeLillo almost makes it, as do Douglas Coupland and Kurt Andersen. Robert Olen Butler is a must-read, and Darrell Spencer (LDS) keeps up any writer I've read to date. And we mustn't forget William Goldman, who has yet to write a lousy screenplay. Please, let's not dis stuff just because it's contemporary. I have a bookshelf of contemp stuff just sitting and waiting for me to get to it. There's more junk out there than ever before, but there is more quality writing, too. And, just to tie this in to another couple threads, there can't be a Great LDS Author simply because there can't be another Great American Author. Tastes are too diversified--there's no consensus on what "great" is. Academia, even if it were unified (which, even at a relatively homogenous university such as BYU, it is not), no longer is in a position to mandate "great" vs. "piddling." The vast majority of Americans are educated, and make their own decisions based on personal aesthetic taste. So said the email I dashed off in anger. Sam ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com [MOD: I'm going to be a spoilsport here and say that I *hope* the jesting tone I detect in these messages means that although I don't doubt they reflect real preferences and opinions, it's more in a spirit of fun than of bitter disagreement or anger. Perhaps this goes without saying, but sometimes it's my job to say things like that anyway.] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kenny Kemp" Subject: [AML] KEMP, _Dad Was A Carpenter_ Wins Award Date: 17 Jul 2000 17:21:48 -0700 ALTA FILMS & PRESS NEWS RELEASE: July 17, 2000 DAD WAS A CARPENTER BUILDS A FOLLOWING Memoir receives the Grand Prize in Writer's Digest competition SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH --- Alta Films & Press announced today that writer and filmmaker Kenny Kemp is this year's recipient of the Grand Prize in the prestigious Writer's Digest National Self-Published Book Awards for his touching memoir Dad Was A Carpenter: Blueprints For A Meaningful Life, besting literally thousands of competing entries. Kemp's book has received dozens of glowing print reviews, including an endorsement by Michael Medved, author and syndicated radio host, who called the book, "Moving and intimate . . . a powerful case for the true importance of life's small moments and passing details." M. Scott Peck, the best-selling author of The Road Less Traveled, concurred, saying the book was "extremely well written." Similar to Mitch Albom's best-selling Tuesdays With Morrie, Kemp shows a journeyman's skill as he gently draws the reader into the emotional heart of his story, relating how his father died of Lou Gehrig's Disease and how the family dealt with it. In simple but powerful prose, Kemp examines the watershed incidents from his childhood in which his father subtly but firmly shaped his life. "He wasn't really a carpenter," says Kemp, who grew up in San Diego. "Carpentry is just a metaphor for how parents shape a child's life. In my case, everything important about life I learned in my father's garage." The book's bittersweet climax comes when Kemp cleans out the garage after his father's death, and the memories he uncovers there form a powerful and moving ending to a well-told story about the greatness of a man who never knew he was. Surprised and pleased by the book's popularity, Kemp says, "I am amazed when people tell me their father or uncle or grandpa is just like my dad. I always thought my family was weird and unique. I guess I was only half right!" The award carries with it a cash prize, as well as a feature interview in the August issue of Writer's Digest magazine, the monthly handbook of the writing profession. The book will also receive active promotion in Publisher's Weekly, the publishing trade bible. Writer's Digest will also endorse and sponsor the book for review in major national review publications such as The New York Times and The Washington Post. Kemp is also featured in the September special "Small Press" issue of Writer's Digest, available in late July. In addition, the unabridged CD audio version of the book has just won an "IPPY" for the "Best Non-fiction Audiobook" from the Independent Publisher's Association. Over 550 publishers compete for the prestigious awards each year. Kemp's previous book, the quirky comic novel I Hated Heaven, tells the story of terminally ill true believer Tom Waring, whose agnostic wife April makes him promise to come back from the dead to tell her if there really is an afterlife. The only catch: returning to Earth is against the rules and Tom has to bust out of Heaven to keep his promise. An award-winner in the "Visionary Fiction" category of the 1999 Independent Publisher Book Awards, I Hated Heaven has been optioned by a major Hollywood producer for production as a feature film. Kenny Kemp is currently working on an illustrated parable, The Welcoming Door, as well as the sequel to I Hated Heaven, called appropriately, Hell Is 10,000 Cable Channels. He writes, practices law, and putters in his own garage in Sandy, Utah. Dad Was A Carpenter is available at all major book outlets, online at Amazon.com, or at the Alta Films & Press website: www.alta-films.com . -- Alan Smithee, Jr. For further information or to receive a FREE review copy, please contact: Alan Smithee, Jr., V.P. Marketing ALTA FILMS & PRESS Tel: 801.943.0321 Email: alan@alta-films.com Web: www.alta-films.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Mormon Short Stories Date: 17 Jul 2000 23:48:57 -0600 >Mormon short story-speculative fiction: Allred, Lee. "For the Strength of the Hills." In _L. Ron Hubbard's Writers of the Future_, vol. 13, pp. 414-85. Los Angeles, Bridge Publications, 1997. Asplund, Russell William. "The Unhappy Golem of Rabbi Leitch." In _L. Ron Hubbard Presents Writers of the Future_, vol. 12, pp. 301-41. Los Angeles: Bridge Publications, 1996. Asplund, Russell William. "The Dybbuk in the Bottle." In Silver Birtch, Blood Moon, ed. Ellen Datlow and Terri Windling. New York: Avon, 1999. Bell, M. Shayne. "Mrs. Lincoln's China." _Asimov's Science Fiction_ 18 (July 1994): 68-78. Henderson, Zenna. _Ingathering: The Complete People Stories of Zenna Henderson_. Ed. Priscilla Olson and Mark L. Olson. Framingham, Mass.: NESFA Press, 1995. Lowe, Eric. "The Tao of Rain and Water." Reprinted in _Leading Edge_, no. 24 (September 1991): 48-63. Parkin, Scott R. "Of Cats and Disease and Goodness." _Irreantum_, no. 4 (winter 1999-2000): 30-37. Wolverton, Dave. "After a Lean Winter." _Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction_ 47 (March 1996): 140-60. Reprinted in _War of the Worlds: Global Dispatches_, ed. Kevin J. Anderson, 242-62. New York: Bantam: 1996. Reprinted in _Year's Best SF 2_, ed. David G. Hartwell. New York: HarperPrism, 1997. I know these are too early to qualify, but I REALLY wanted to mention them. They are by non-Mormons and published in national magazines. Davidson, Avram, and Cynthia Goldstone. "Pebble in Time." _Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction_ (August 1970). Reprinted in _Laughing Space: Funny Science Fiction_, ed. Isaac Asimov and J. O. Jeppson. Houghton Mifflin, 1982. Swanwick, Michael. "Anyone Here from Utah?" _Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine_ (May 1985). Reprinted in _Another Round at the Spaceport Bar_, ed. George H. Scithers and Darrell Schweitzer. Avon Books, 1989. Marny Parkin sparkin@airswitch.net http://home.airswitch.net/MormonBib/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] (Biblio File) Mormon Short Stories Date: 17 Jul 2000 23:48:57 -0600 A couple of minor corrections: >BYU Studies has also published short stories here and there since >Clinton Larson helped to found it in 1956. BYU Studies began publication in 1959. >1993: Short story >Washed by a Wave of the Wind: Stories from the Corridor. ed. by M. >Shayne Bell, Signature, 1993. WWW won an award for editorial excellence, not for fiction. FWIW. Marny Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rachel Ann Nunes" Subject: [AML] Re: ADAMS, _Prodigal Journey_ Date: 18 Jul 2000 10:47:50 -0600 Linda said: >It lists at $14.95 and at 520 pp. it's over 1 1/2 inches thick. But it >reads fast--right, Rachel? It does at that. And at $14.95, it's a very good deal. My new book, _Tomorrow and Always,_ will be that same price and has only 265 pages. My first book was $10.95, and the other eight have been somewhere in between. I think there's been an increase on paper costs in the past four years. Linda, will you be in Utah promoting your book at all? Richard promised me a copy, but I'd love it signed! Rachel ________________________________ Rachel Ann Nunes Author of the best-selling novel To Love and to Promise E-mail: rachel@ranunes.com Web page: http://www.ranunes.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard R Hopkins Subject: [AML] Re: Good Writing Date: 18 Jul 2000 11:20:43 -0600 The views of Plato, Socrates and Aristotle presented on the one hand by Eric and on the other by Tony are interesting for their apparent contrast. Personally I, with Tony, marvel at the truths divined by these men, truths that prepared the Greek people, literally the Gentiles, to receive the Gospel after Christ. Had they not been so prepared and had they not so extensively grafted themselves into the tree, to coin a phrase :-), we would most certainly have no New Testament today! The Jews certainly would not have preserved it. However, with Eric, I note that both Plato and Aristotle advocated, among other things, the removal of children from their parents for the purpose of educating them, a rather fascist idea, IMHO. I also note that their philosophy ultimately led the early Christian Church to such gymnastic wonders of thought as the Trinity, co-substantiality, metaphysics, and a few other dumb ideas I could mention that ultimately were encased in the granite of orthodoxy and resulted in a 1000-year period known as the Dark Ages. Bottom line: the Greek Philosophers present a very mixed bag. Richard Hopkins - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Great Authors Date: 18 Jul 2000 11:17:01 -0600 >The best thing about lists of greatness is that they polarize >people. Ha! The thrill of irresponsible opining! So. . . . Shakespeare IS the best, though all the things he's usually idolized for = are wrong. Who cares about his poetry? I love his stagecraft, the nasty = bite of his characters, his deliciously bawdy sense of humor, his = gross-out gags. Give me people with some wit and energy; Henry Fielding = over almost anyone in his day, Dickens over Jane Austen, absolutely Twain = over Henry James, absolutely Aristophanes over Plautus or Euripides. = Journalists are seriously underrated; I'd rather read Mencken than any = novelist of his period, except maybe Ring Lardner. And today, non-fiction = writers like Stephen Carter and Stephen Jay Gould--disparate though their = interests are--are far better writers than most of our novelists, and way = more interesting. I take Synge over Chekhov. Bad Strindberg is as awful as anyone ever, = except for bad Shaw, but at their best, both are magnificent. Today, = David Foster Wallace is America's finest novelist, followed shortly behind = by Jane Smiley and Russell Banks. Oh,and Donald Westlake; famous genre = novelists are often much better than they're given credit for. Faulkner's = overrated, and Joyce is hugely overrated. Best playwright working right = now is Tom Stoppard. =20 Among Mormons, Levi Peterson still leads the pack, with Margaret Young and = Doug Thayer close behind. Brian Evensen is talented, but too one-dimension= to really be that interesting so far; likewise Neil Labute. Card is far = too uneven; I have no idea if he has a little curl on his forehead or not, = but the rest of the poem applies to him: when good, he's very very good, = and when he's bad, he's horrid. Tim Slover is our best playwright. Eric Samuelsen =20 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: [AML] Re: Great Authors Date: 18 Jul 2000 12:22:21 -0600 >And we mustn't forget William Goldman, who=20 >has yet to write a lousy screenplay. Uh, did you see The Year of the Comet? The Ghost in the Darkness? = Absolute Power? The Great Waldo Pepper? I do beg to differ. I do love Butch Cassidy, and I do love The Princess Bride. But Goldman's = very uneven. Sometimes he's terrific. Other times, less than. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: [AML] Re: Good Writing Date: 18 Jul 2000 12:19:02 -0600 Tony Markham, responding to my mean-spirited anti-Platonic diatribe with = far more class and charity and kindness than it warranted, wrote: >I'd like to be related to that Markham who was with Joseph and >Hyrum at = Carthage but who was sent away on an errand shortly >before the mob = arrived. He is only tantalizingly mentioned in the >DHC. Can anybody = fill me in about this guy? Stephen Markham. He was my great great grandfather. He was a bodyguard = of Joseph, and was the man who grabbed the horses' bridles when two thugs = from Missouri tried to take Joseph back with them. He was, as Tony wrote, = in Carthage with Joseph, Hyrum, Willard Richards, John Taylor and Dan = Jones the evening before the martyrdom. He went back to Nauvoo on an = errand (getting medicine for Willard Richards, who was sick.) The mob = caught him, forced him to watch the martyrdom, ran swords through his legs = so he wouldn't be able to direct his horse with his knees, cut the reins, = and sent the horse off in the opposite direction from Nauvoo. He was = still able to circle around the mob and return to Nauvoo, where he, among = others, gave the alarm. He came to Salt Lake Valley with his family, and eventually settled in = Spanish Fork. His first wife kept right on going; she hated Utah, and took = their oldest children and ended up in California, so we have a large = branch of the family who lives in California, outside the Church. Stephen = Markham is also mentioned prominently in Eliza R. Snow's journal; she = lived with the Markham family in Nauvoo, and she has kind things to say = about him, and rather less pleasant things to say about his wife. Stephen = did not keep a journal, and the family legend is that he was illiterate. = He is also supposed to have lended Hyrum his large walking stick, called = 'the Rascal Beater,' which Hyrum used in Carthage to defend himself; he is = also supposed to have lended John Taylor the pocket watch that saved his = life: both are prominent family legends. I come from his fourth wife's = line. =20 The reason I mention him is that there's a novel about Stephen Markham = that I saw once in a used book store. I didn't buy it at the time, and = when I came back later with my checkbook, it had already been sold. I = can't remember the title or the author's name, or any publisher's = information. Anyone know anything about it? Back to Plato, responding to Tony: >In the course of a year I'll get from ten to twenty philosophy >textbooks = to peruse at my leisure. I always enjoy the sections on >aesthetics. I = daresay that practically every textbook that comes >across my desk treats = Socrates and Plato (you really can't >separate the two) and their = aesthetic theories with dignity and >respect. These textbooks will also = present counterarguments, >specifically addressing Plato, from the = greatest minds through the >ages--Kant, Nietzsche, Fromme, to name a = few--who >all took Socrates/Plato quite seriously. My experience is that Plato is only taken seriously as someone who simply = must be refuted if we're to have any dramatic or literary art at all. I = get the same textbooks you get; the Republic argument IS always mentioned, = and very quickly disposed of as representing a hopeless sort of naivete. = He is certainly someone who we have to understand, because his arguments = remain part of the cultural criticism of the arts with which we have to = contend. (Medved echoes him in all sorts of interesting ways). But he's = not worth taking seriously, as someone who may actually have a point. We = CAN'T take the Republic seriously, because if we do, drama and literature = both become completely impossible. If we so much as allow for the possibility that the depiction of improper = acts leads to the commission of those acts, then our art forms disappear, = based as they are on human action, on conflict, on showing fictional = characters making wrong choices. All of drama, all of film, and essentiall= y all of fiction deals with, as Brigham put it, 'evil and its consequences.= ' I know of no exceptions. All such works, without exception, would be = banned in Plato's Republic. Hamlet, Macbeth, King Lear, Oedipus and = Antigone, A Doll House and Ghosts, The Oresteia and A Long Day's Journey = Into Night, Frazier and MASH and Scooby Doo and Teenage Mutant Ninja = Turtles, heck, Saturday's Warrior, My Turn on Earth, Charley's Monument, = all of it gone, banished. No, I'm sorry, but that sounds like the worst = possible nightmare to me. I mean it: none of us on the list would survive = three days in Plato's fascistic little paradise. =20 >If people didn't take Plato's argument seriously, then the General = >Authorities would say to go ahead and fill your minds with porn >because = exposure to it doesn't affect behavior. =20 Nonsense. Aristotle did not imply at all that we should abandon all = standards, or that certain kinds of literature weren't better than other = kinds of literature, or that literature couldn't influence behavior for = the worse. Quite the contrary; the entire body of the Poetics is devoted = to establishing some literary standards. He just thinks we CAN (and ought = to) learn from literature in positive ways. (I also reject mainstream = catharsis theory, BTW; maybe that'll be the subject of a future column) = =20 >Mapplethorpe would be exhibited at the Wilkinson Center=20 Mapplethorpe is a superb photographer; I saw an exhibition of his work at = the Tate in London recently, and it was magnificent, and, to me, = inoffensive. I look forward to the day when this could happen. >Evenson would still be teaching Creative Writing at the Lord's >University= . He's a fine writer,and a superb teacher; it's a crying shame this isn't = happening now. =20 >The people who claim that our entertainment influences our >behavior may = not invoke The Republic or Plato's name, but they >are echoing his = sentiment. Seriously. Not so. Those who believe that the influence of our entertainment is = usually evil, and that only depictions of good people doing good things = should be allowed, are invoking Plato's name. And those aren't people we = should take very seriously.=20 Tony, my most amiable opponent, continued: >One of the reasons I like the big three Early Greek Philosophers >so much = is that one day this odd synchronicity simply dawned on >me. I don't = recall ever reading it from another source, though if >someone else has = written on it, I'd be grateful for the reference. >Socrates had some commonalities with Christ: He was a >Teacher, He = confounded the learned, he never wrote anything >down, he was unjustly = condemned to death by false witnesses in >an unfair court, he could have = saved himself, he died for his >beliefs, and his followers continued his = teachings. =20 Yes . . . The biggest difference is that Socrates' philosophy was so often = negative. He didn't know what the truth was, he simply thought that most = of the ideas accepted by his peers as truth were logically flawed. And = so, gadfly that he was, he went around bursting bubbles. He was the first = and most original deconstructionist, and like all good deconstructionists, = his main philosophical contribution is inculcating a proper and appropriate= sense of humility.=20 Of course, this isn't entirely true. He did have things he believed in, = for which he was willing to die. Some of those ideas are profound and = rich. Others, not so much. =20 >Plato, like any number of Christ's followers, wrote down the >teachings = of his master concentrating on the events of his life, >the parables he = told, and the principles he taught. =20 Sort of. But Plato was a brilliant and original thinker in his own right, = and built upon Socrates' ideas in all sorts of interesting ways. Which, = lets face it, Luke or John did not do. >Now along comes Aristotle, who like Paul, never actually met the >master, = and seemed intent on codifying the heart and soul of this >philosopher = into a set of rules with headers and subsections and >do this and don't do = that. =20 Absolutely false. =20 Aristotle's contribution was to develop and employ a far more rigorous set = of logical tools, which he applied to the debate. Aristotle takes the = propositions developed by Plato and asks that great question "what's the = evidence? What does it really tell us?" He looked hard-headedly at the = Platonic system, broke it down to its constituent parts, and made a = determination as to whether it worked or not. And ended up rejecting the = airier Platonic metaphysical conceits. All of them were precursors to Christ. All taught valuable lessons. All = were seekers after truth, and all three were sufficiently brilliant to = recognize the limitations of their learning, and to approach the task of = philosophy with genuine humility. But when it comes to the arts, to books 2, 3 and 10 of the Republic, only = one conclusion is possible. Plato was just flat wrong. And Aristotle, in = the Poetics, moves us infinitely closer to the truth. =20 >To this day, people who like Paul are apt to like Aristotle (rules) >and = people who like, say, John, are apt to be more moved by >Plato (principles)= . Well, I'm the biggest anti-rule guy I know. I break rules that even make = sense, just because they're there. I'm a spirit-of-the-law, rules-are-made= -to-be-broken, it's-easier-to-ask-forgiveness-than-permission guy from the = word go. And I revere Aristotle. See, as members of the Church, we don't get to choose. We have to read, = understand, and live by the teachings of John AND Paul. We have to assume = Paul was also inspired. But as students of philosophy, we can pick and = choose. We can say "Plato had some interesting ideas in some of his = writings, and was up in the night when it came to drama."=20 >I'll close with a little flavor of Socrates/Plato and will quote in = >order to do justice (from The Cave): >"But, whether true or false, my opinion is that in the world of >knowledge= the idea of good appears last of all, and is seen only >with an effort; = and, when seen, is also inferred to be the universal >author of all things = beautiful and right, parent of light and of the >lord of light in this = visible world, and the immediate source of >reason and truth in the = intellectual; and that this is the power >upon which he who would act = rationally either in public or private >life must have his eye fixed." A lovely quote, and one with strong parallels with D&C 93. You're quite = right. There are other passages I could quote where he's just as clearly = out of his mind. He was a philosopher; right about some things, wrong = about others. When it comes to the arts, I'm sorry, but he didn't know = what he was talking about, and is just not worth listening to. Eric Samuelsen=20 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jason Steed" Subject: Re: [AML] Great Authors Date: 18 Jul 2000 12:49:17 PDT >The best thing about lists of greatness is that they polarize people. > >Wordsworth and Tennyson were sissies--Coleridge too. Blake and Keats took >them all to school. Here here! Though I think Coleridge the theologian/philosopher/literary critic rates higher than "sissy" (though this may be his lot as poet). >Eliot is better than Dickens or Austen, but not better >than Hardy or George Sand. If we're talking strictly taste, here, I'll take Austen over any Victorian. >Faulkner is better than anybody except when he >sucks (i.e. Chapter iv of "The Bear"). But he doesn't suck very often. >Milton is boring; give me Dante over >that blind Satan-bibber any day. Fair enough. >GATSBY was a fluke. So was MADAME BOVARY, but not HEART OF DARKNESS. Flaubert could have done more if he wasn't so worried about that mot juste all the time--how CAN you write more than one good novel if every word has to be perfect? Gatsby was a wonderful fluke, even if it was one. But I have to say that Conrad's novella is much too racist for my liking, and I side with Achebe who says we ought not hold it up as "art." >Yeats is great except when he's rhyming. T.S. Eliot is good except for the >Cats fiasco and his religious turn. Stevens was far and away better than >either. Yes, Stevens outweighs the other two--especially Eliot, who is only good for "Prufrock," IMO. (The Waste Land is important, influential, but not to my liking.) I happen to think Frost gets less than his due, as does W.C. Williams. >HD could run laps around Pound. I'm not big on either of them--though Pound should have got double-billing for The Waste Land. >Hemingway was phenomenal except >when he tried to write novels. FOR WHOM THE BELL TOLLS should have been >lost when Hadley lost the early short story manuscripts. Actually, I think it was a decent novel--only bad when held up to the incredibly high standards of his short fiction. And _A Farewell to Arms_ and _The Sun Also Rises_ are certainly better than decent. But none exceeds something like "Big Two-hearted River" or "The Short Happy Life of Francis Macomber." >James was trapped >in a man's body (I refer you to "Daisy Miller" and PORTRAIT OF A LADY). >Woolf's prose is so good in her essays that it makes one wonder how it >could >curdle so much in her fiction. I must admit I'm not much of a Woolf or a James fan. I'll take _Passage to India_ over any of Woolf's novels, and _Huck Finn_ over _Portrait of a Lady_. > >Almost all contemporary writing in America is garbage, except for Cormac >McCarthy, Barry Lopez, Carole Maso, and Louise Gluck. Throw in Cynthia >Ozick and John Hawkes as not garbage. Ron Carlson isn't bad, but he's >inconsistent. Same with Richard Ford and Lorrie Moore and Billy Collins. I don't agree it's almost all garbage--go to ANY period of history and you'll find as much pulp as you find now--it just doesn't stay on the shelves more than 30-40 years, tops, so it looks like only the last 30-40 years is full of pulp. McCarthy is exquisite; Ozick excellent. Carlson is lightweight--you're forgetting Carver, who rivals Hemingway for the king of short fiction in the 1900s. Ford and Moore are great, but haven't done enough yet to secure any real position. I also happen to admire Rick Bass a great deal; also Allegra Goodman. And if by "contemporary" you mean post WWII, we have to mention Malamud, O'Connor, Bellow, D. Barthelme (short fiction), Toni Morrison (especially earlier novels like _Sula_), Cheever (another short fiction great), and Peter Taylor. > >Outside America Marquez and William Trevor take the cake, and so does Alice >Munro. > >Most LDS writing is as bad as most Baptist writing, which is sad because we >have the truth and they can't watch Disney movies. That should give us an >edge. The Jews and the Catholics have us beat, hands down. Were neither >weird nor persecuted anymore, so we lose that handicap. I like Terry >Tempest Williams and Doug Thayer's work when he sends it to me. > >Italo Calvino is better at everything than anyone else except for Borges >and >Kafka and also maybe Chekhov and O'Connor I could be persuaded in all of this... > >Katherine Anne was brilliant but Katherine Mansfield wasn't. Swift is to >Rabalais as Boccacio is to Chaucer as Euripides is to Sophocles. Homer >blew >it the first time out but made up for it with the ODYSSEY. Twain was a >hoot >until he met the Mormons and turned bitter. Dos Passos couldn't write a >smooth sentence if Nabokov put a gun to his head and cocked it. Again, I agree with all of the above. And chalk up my vote for _Lolita_ as one of the greatest novels ever written (though whispers may run through the pews with such an announcement). J.P. Steed English Department, UNLV 4505 Maryland Pkwy, Box 455011 Las Vegas, NV 89154-5011 jpsteed@hotmail.com http://complabs.nevada.edu/~stee6515 _________________ "God created man because he loves stories." -- Elie Wiesel "There is no story that is not true." -- Chinua Achebe ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: [AML] Re: Good Writing Date: 18 Jul 2000 14:13:45 -0600 "Tony Markham (by way of Jonathan Langford )" wrote: > Does depicting terrible things in drama (TV and movies) engender the same > terrible things in society as Plato argues, or does depicting terrible > things act as a catharsis to purge them out of our system and make the > society a better place as Aristotle argues? Neither one, in my opinion. Depicting terrible things teaches us by example. If the drama shows the terrible things as being desirable, then the drama has a negative effect on society as Plato would argue. If it shows that the terrible things have negative consequences, then it teaches us what not to do and has a positive effect on society as Aristotle would argue. The morality of the author's worldview is what makes the work moral or immoral, not the depicted act itself. > This is a vital argument, going strong today, for every patron and practitioner > of the arts. If people didn't take Plato's argument seriously, then the General > Authorities would say to go ahead and fill your minds with porn because exposure > to it doesn't affect behavior. The worldview of the author is what makes porn immoral: the purpose is clearly to arouse and degrade. That's why we have such a difficult time defining what porn is: intent is a large part of it. > Hmm. We have noted on this list that the repeated warnings from General > Authorities about the dangers of R-rated films have overwhelmingly been addressed > to the youth and to people who have a susceptability to Pornography. Yes, > children and weak-minded people. And I would have to agree with this. Not everyone is strong enough to deal with the depiction of evil things in art, even within a moral setting, and that is why I believe the General Authorities take the stand they do: to accomodate their counsel to the weakest of saints. This places the burden on us to decide if we're "too weak" to deal with this or that art. I dare say some people overestimate their strength and end up wandering down philosophical "forbidden paths." We shouldn't take lightly the decision of what we will or won't expose ourselves to. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Genre Date: 18 Jul 2000 14:17:49 -0600 Jason Steed wrote: > Again, I'm shooting a bit from the hip, and I want to > stress that I do not personally harbor a prejudice against "genre fiction." Now I can't speak for other genres like Western or Romance or Horror, because I don't read them. Perhaps for some of them, your statements are more reflective of reality. But when it comes to science fiction, I'm have to completely disagree with you. > I think it's important to acknowledge a major reason for the perjorative use > of the term "genre fiction," which I think explains why it is often not > taken seriously. Generally speaking, most "genres" (romance, western, SF, > horror, etc.) are susceptible to formulaic structures, stereotypical > characters or scenarios, and an overabundance of cliches. As a response to this very type of accusation, prominent science fiction author Theodore Sturgeon coined an oft-quoted saying (which I of course am paraphrasing, since who in their right mind would waste time looking it up?): Sure, 90% of science fiction is garbage, but 90% of everything is garbage. Since I brought up Sturgeon, I challenge each of you who might feel as Jason does to go to your local library or used bookstore and search out Sturgeon's book _More Than Human_, read it, and tell me how it's formulaic, or not as chockfull with insightful and complex explorations of the human condition as any literary novel you've read. I could say the same about dozens of other science fiction books, from Ursula K. LeGuin's _Left Hand of Darkness_ and _Dispossessed_, to James Blish's _A Case of Conscience_, to Joe Haldeman's _Forever War_, to Robert Silverberg's _A Time of Changes_, to Clifford Simak's _Waystation_, to Octavia Butler's anything. Need I even mention Orson Scott Card's Ender series in this crowd? And M. Shayne Bell's _Nicoji_ ain't bad either. You'd be hard pressed to find even a hint of formula among these and many other books, outside of the obvious one that they all ask "what if?" questions about things that are currently not known to be true in our universe. > The key, IMO, is that the "literary" genre--though it has its > conventions, of course--is less limiting. It is not hard to write a GOOD > non-Western (it can be so many other things and still be GOOD); but it is > very hard to write a GOOD non-literary novel--because the fact that it is > GOOD makes it a candidate for being classified as "literary," while this is > not enough to classify it as "Western." If you were to make these comments in the presence of Orson Scott Card, you would get a very strong reaction, and it wouldn't be pretty. His assertion is that within the "boundaries" of science fiction, an author has more opportunity to explore and experiment and push any limits that exist than literary authors can even imagine. > My question is, for those who DO write what might be > classifiable as "genre fiction": How DO you toe the line and make what you > write "new" and "original" while maintaining those elements necessary to the > genre? It seems to me that this is a greater challenge for "genre" writers > than for "mainstream" blokes like myself. New and original in science fiction? Name me a genre (including literary) that has anywhere near the scope science fiction has, within which to be new and original. > But I've gone on long enough--did anybody read the whole post? Yep. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Melissa Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Great Authors Date: 18 Jul 2000 14:12:31 -0600 On Fri, 14 Jul 2000 19:03:55 -0600, Annette Lyon wrote: >And Faulkner is so long winded that I've always >been surprised how much acclaim he gets. My gosh, almost the entire = first >page of _The Unvanquished_ was ONE sentence! Try writing those kinds of >sentences and see if any editor will give you anything but a printed >rejection slip.=20 It depends on the sentence, I think--and the writer, and the story. = Terry McMillan is a fairly popular contemporary writer, and in _How Stella Got = Her Groove Back_ she has some incredibly long run-on sentences. There are = very few rules that can't ever be broken, though you probably have to break = them the right way. (In _Stella_, for example, the run-on sentences are part = of a narrative style that's meant to represent the main character's internal "voice".) But I like Faulkner, so what do I know? :) Melissa Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Mormon Short Stories (Andrew's Poll) Date: 18 Jul 2000 15:59:53 -0700 So that must be your vote for best collection of the year. * * * * * * Read my novella about Mormon missionaries at http://www1.mightywords.com/as= p/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=3DEB00016373. >>> "Marilyn & William Brown" 07/18 3:54 PM >>> All I can say, Chris, is read LETTING LOOSE THE HOUNDS before you make any = other ordered voting lists. Marilyn Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "ROY SCHMIDT" Subject: Re: [AML] Great Authors Date: 18 Jul 2000 16:14:05 -0600 I was pleased to see someone mention H. L. Mencken, although I do not think of him in the realm of the novelist. I my opinion, he is the finest wordsmith of the modern era. Well, back to lurkdom. Roy Schmidt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Perry Subject: [AML] Re: Great Authors Date: 18 Jul 2000 16:16:03 -0600 > From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" > Subject: [AML] Re: Great Authors > > I do love Butch Cassidy, and I do love The Princess Bride. But Goldman's > very uneven. Sometimes he's terrific. Other times, less than. Also, be sure to read the book "The Princess Bride," to catch all the great stuff there wasn't time to include in the movie. Steve - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara@techvoice.com (Barbara R. Hume) Subject: Re: [AML] Great Authors Date: 18 Jul 2000 16:13:50 -0700 > Terry >McMillan is a fairly popular contemporary writer, and in _How Stella Got Her >Groove Back_ she has some incredibly long run-on sentences. There are very >few rules that can't ever be broken, though you probably have to break them >the right way. (In _Stella_, for example, the run-on sentences are part of >a narrative style that's meant to represent the main character's internal >"voice".) I thought that the protagonist of STELLA was the best bit of characterization I'd seen in ages. I'd read the book again to see how she did it if it weren't for the liberal sprinkling of the f-word throughoutm which I personally cannot stand. I was interested in the way the character saw everything through the filter of her blackness, just as I tend to see everything through the filter of my femaleness. It made me think. Not change, just think. barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara@techvoice.com (Barbara R. Hume) Subject: Re: [AML] Great Authors Date: 18 Jul 2000 16:31:11 -0700 >>Woolf's prose is so good in her essays that it makes one wonder how it >>could >>curdle so much in her fiction. I was recently reading Woolf's ORLANDO, and I found therein a wonderfully concise statement about the woes of the writer: "One writes, and it seems good. One reads, and it seems vile." That sentence stayed with me at a time in my life when I can scarcely remember what I was doing thirty seconds ago. In general, however, that novel does what I most dislike about literary fiction: halts the plot for pages and pages while the author blathers on about this and that. Same reason I don't like musicals. It's the story I want. BTW, that was a marvelous post. I hereby resign from my position as the most opinionated person on the list! barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Willson" Subject: Re: [AML] Great Authors Date: 18 Jul 2000 18:14:48 -0600 > >And Faulkner is so long winded that I've always > >been surprised how much acclaim he gets. My gosh, almost the entire first > >page of _The Unvanquished_ was ONE sentence! Try writing those kinds of > >sentences and see if any editor will give you anything but a printed > >rejection slip. > > It depends on the sentence, I think--and the writer, and the story. I agree, it does depend on, by who, for what purpose and how the rules are broken. I seem to recall several instances where James A. Michener, whom I consider a great author, got a little wordy within single sentences. Some of his descriptions of beginnings of geological formations and the boundaries of territories or ecological areas, come to mind. I wrote legalese for a decade before I retired, and I had to write the description of each separate piece of property which was being considered in any given document the sole substance of a single sentence. No period would be tolerated by the lawyers or judges until I came to the end of the last course in the description. Some of the descriptions I wrote took many pages. I had to become a master of the art of the colon, semi-colon, comma, and of compiling detailed numerical or arabic annotated lists. Of course no one in their right mind would ever dare to call legalese literature. (8-) Regards, Bill Willson Keep your hand moving and your muse alive. bwillson@mtwest.net - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Todd Robert Petersen" Subject: Re: [AML] Genre Date: 18 Jul 2000 20:02:40 -0500 D. Michael Martindale wrote: > New and original in science fiction? Name me a genre (including > literary) that has anywhere near the scope science fiction has, within > which to be new and original. If your mean original as in making up monsters and planets and fabulous ecosystems and so forth, then science fiction has it beat. If you mean original as in new things done in and with language that have not been seen before (i.e. breaks with stylistic, structural, and linguistic tradition) then Sub-Saharan African Writers from the last twenty years or so, writers working in English and in hyrid forms of their native and imposed languages, are among the most original. Writers like these are Kojo Laing, Dambudzo Marechera, China Achebe, Ben Okri, Ezekiel Mephelele, and Wole Soyinka. Science Fiction and its proponents often rely on the inventiveness of the writer's ability to imagine the content as a rational for the genre's overall inventiveness. Plots and characters remain the same for much of the genre. This is not to include Lem, Hebert, Moorcock, Dick, and others. Todd Robert Petersen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jason Steed" Subject: Re: [AML] Genre Date: 18 Jul 2000 21:01:10 PDT >Now I can't speak for other genres like Western or Romance or Horror, >because I don't read them. Perhaps for some of them, your statements are >more reflective of reality. But when it comes to science fiction, I'm >have to completely disagree with you. > >As a response to this very type of accusation, prominent science fiction >author Theodore Sturgeon coined an oft-quoted saying (which I of course >am paraphrasing, since who in their right mind would waste time looking >it up?): Sure, 90% of science fiction is garbage, but 90% of everything >is garbage. I would agree with this 100%. >Since I brought up Sturgeon, I challenge each of you who might feel as >Jason does to go to your local library or used bookstore and search out >Sturgeon's book _More Than Human_, read it, and tell me how it's >formulaic, or not as chockfull with insightful and complex explorations >of the human condition as any literary novel you've read. I could say >the same about dozens of other science fiction books, from Ursula K. >LeGuin's _Left Hand of Darkness_ and _Dispossessed_, to James Blish's _A >Case of Conscience_, to Joe Haldeman's _Forever War_, to Robert >Silverberg's _A Time of Changes_, to Clifford Simak's _Waystation_, to >Octavia Butler's anything. Need I even mention Orson Scott Card's Ender >series in this crowd? And M. Shayne Bell's _Nicoji_ ain't bad either. > >You'd be hard pressed to find even a hint of formula among these and >many other books, outside of the obvious one that they all ask "what >if?" questions about things that are currently not known to be true in >our universe. Maybe you misunderstood me. I wasn't saying SF is formulaic. I was saying that "genre" fiction in general tends to be more _susceptible_ to cliche and formula than "mainstream" or "literary" fiction. Those SF works which overcome or shed or avoid that susceptibility are the _good_ books--the 10% that isn't garbage. But just because they exist doesn't mean that "genre" fiction isn't susceptible to what I was claiming it is susceptible to. > > The key, IMO, is that the "literary" genre--though it has its > > conventions, of course--is less limiting. It is not hard to write a GOOD > > non-Western (it can be so many other things and still be GOOD); but it >is > > very hard to write a GOOD non-literary novel--because the fact that it >is > > GOOD makes it a candidate for being classified as "literary," while this >is > > not enough to classify it as "Western." > >If you were to make these comments in the presence of Orson Scott Card, >you would get a very strong reaction, and it wouldn't be pretty. His >assertion is that within the "boundaries" of science fiction, an author >has more opportunity to explore and experiment and push any limits that >exist than literary authors can even imagine. OSC is just one author (though you appeal to his author-ity quite often). And of course he'll disagree, because he's a SF author and will naturally favor his canvas over another (that's why he works there). But in an effort to NOT favor any particular genre, I would have to say he's just plain wrong: no genre, SF included, is any "freer" or "better able" to experiment or explore than any other. Each just does it in different ways. > > > My question is, for those who DO write what might be > > classifiable as "genre fiction": How DO you toe the line and make what >you > > write "new" and "original" while maintaining those elements necessary to >the > > genre? It seems to me that this is a greater challenge for "genre" >writers > > than for "mainstream" blokes like myself. > >New and original in science fiction? Name me a genre (including >literary) that has anywhere near the scope science fiction has, within >which to be new and original. All of them. There is nothing new under the sun. I presume you're arguing for SF's superiority here because SF can create a world we've never heard of before, inhabited by creatures we've never heard of. But isn't every piece of writing the creation of a world? Doesn't Carver create a "new" world when he writes about blue-collar Joe who's trying to quit smoking, whose kid gets in a fight with the boy down the street? You want to say "no", I presume, because this world and the creatures in it are recognizable. They're not "new." But you'll be hard-pressed to convince me that SF worlds aren't recognizable; they're still _worlds_, in some way relatable to my world (as Carver's is), and the creatures and their interactions with one another are still relatable to me and my interactions with others. You've just made up "new" pronouns, named them differently, etc. Creating a "new" planet in SF is no more "new" and "original", IMO, then creating a "new" county (Faulkner's Yoknapawtawpha) in "literary" fiction; and creating a "new" creature with three arms and one eye is no different from creating a "new" woman who is so desperate to keep her husband in his place that she shoots him (Hemingway's "Short Happy Life of F.M."). The difference is, IMO, that in creating these worlds in "mainstream" or "literary" fiction, readers are less likely to recognize formulaic or cliched writing, for whatever reason. And the "conventions" for these genres are not so well-delineated as they are for the so-called "genre" fictions. So, the "genre" fictions are perceived as more susceptible to formula and cliche. J.P. Steed English Department, UNLV 4505 Maryland Pkwy, Box 455011 Las Vegas, NV 89154-5011 jpsteed@hotmail.com http://complabs.nevada.edu/~stee6515 _________________ "God created man because he loves stories." -- Elie Wiesel "There is no story that is not true." -- Chinua Achebe ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Adams Subject: Re: [AML] Re: ADAMS, _Prodigal Journey_ Date: 18 Jul 2000 23:10:36 -0500 >Linda, will you be in Utah promoting your book at all? Richard promised me a >copy, but I'd love it signed! >Rachel I will be, but unfortunately not until around Thanksgiving time. I am right now 31 weeks pregnant and my OB has banned me from flying from Kansas City to Utah. ;-) Sorry about the wait! (I'm due Sept 20th. This is #5.) I'm really going to enjoy meeting many of you, when I do get to travel. I'll have the little babe along with me, too. Linda ------- Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com http://members.xoom.com/adamszoo http://home.sprintmail.com/~adamszoo - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jerry Enos" Subject: [AML] Re: Genre Date: 18 Jul 2000 23:32:02 -0600 Melinda, It's interesting what you said about spelling. When my first child was born I gave her the middle name of Anne. I had intended to spell it without the e but it just didn't look right without it. Also our second daughter ended up with her name spelled with a K instead of a C for the same reason. By the way, our third daughter is Melinda. I have found the same thing with my characters. Their names have to be spelled just so or it doesn't fit them. Usually if there is more then one way to spell it I go with the more unusual one. Maybe because my name is an unusual spelling. Konnie Enos P.S. Jason, I read your whole post too. ----- Original Message ----- > Next subject: Have you ever noticed that spelling has a lot to do with > aesthetics, the way a word looks on the page? I give the name John as an > example. Jon is just as correct, phonetically, but looks childish to me. > > Yes, Jason, I read your whole post. It was interesting. > Melinda L. Ambrose - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gae Lyn Henderson" Subject: [AML] RE: Good Writing Date: 19 Jul 2000 00:59:17 -0600 Commenting on the conversation between Tony Markham and Eric Samuelsen-- Eric Samuelsen says: > > Tony Markham, responding to my mean-spirited anti-Platonic > diatribe with far more class and charity and kindness than it > warranted, Eric, if you really feel that Tony responded with class, charity and kindness, why do you continue in the tenor you describe as "mean-spirited . . . diatribe"? I'm serious about this. I read both yours and Tony's comments with considerable interest. Both of you make some excellent points. There are considerable grounds for consensus between you two. So why do you use the antagonistic tone, what are we to make of that? I mean it: > none of us on the list would survive three days in Plato's > fascistic little paradise. Does the word "fascistic" bridge gaps of understanding or further polarize the interlocutors?> > >If people didn't take Plato's argument seriously, then the > General >Authorities would say to go ahead and fill your minds > with porn >because exposure to it doesn't affect behavior. > > Nonsense. Are you trying to understand what Tony is saying here, or just moving to another point about what Aristotle was trying to do? I agree with what you say about Aristotle's establishment of literary standards, but I also think Tony has a point about the General Authorities often speaking from a Platonic mode. Aristotle did not imply at all that we should abandon > all standards, or that certain kinds of literature weren't better > than other kinds of literature, or that literature couldn't > influence behavior for the worse. Quite the contrary; the entire > body of the Poetics is devoted to establishing some literary > standards. He just thinks we CAN (and ought to) learn from > literature in positive ways. (I also reject mainstream catharsis > theory, BTW; maybe that'll be the subject of a future column) > > >Mapplethorpe would be exhibited at the Wilkinson Center > > Mapplethorpe is a superb photographer; I saw an exhibition of his > work at the Tate in London recently, and it was magnificent, and, > to me, inoffensive. I look forward to the day when this could happen. Of course, Tony's point is that it is NOT happening because some people believe that what Plato is saying about evil depictions are true. Whether or not that eliminates art as we know it, we've got to at least acknowledge the thinking that is functioning in much of our culture. > > >Evenson would still be teaching Creative Writing at the Lord's > >University. > > He's a fine writer,and a superb teacher; it's a crying shame this > isn't happening now. Until the gaps in understanding can be bridged between polarized groups, it is not going to happen. Does the conversation on this list serve as one place where consensus might be the goal, rather than accusation and further polarization? > > >The people who claim that our entertainment influences our > >behavior may not invoke The Republic or Plato's name, but they > >are echoing his sentiment. Seriously. > > Not so. Why not say, "I see it differently"? or "Consider this," or "That's one way of perceiving it, but"? Doesn't the rhetorical framework make a difference in the outcome? Wouldn't Aristotle advocate the most effective means of persuasion, not just the quickest or most economical? > Tony, my most amiable opponent, continued: I like "amiable." I don't like "opponent." > > Yes . . . Good conciliatory move here, > Absolutely false. which is unfortunately undermined here. > > Well, I'm the biggest anti-rule guy I know. I break rules that > even make sense, just because they're there. I'm a > spirit-of-the-law, rules-are-made-to-be-broken, > it's-easier-to-ask-forgiveness-than-permission guy from the word > go. And I revere Aristotle. > I like your anti-rule rebel persona. But I'm trying to figure out how you've missed the subjugation-of-our-will and obedience framework that seems to constrain many LDS people from such a freewheeling mentality. > A lovely quote, and one with strong parallels with D&C 93. > You're quite right. There are other passages I could quote where > he's just as clearly out of his mind. He was a philosopher; > right about some things, wrong about others. When it comes to > the arts, I'm sorry, but he didn't know what he was talking > about, and is just not worth listening to. I would like to see one female AML-list member say something like "You're quite right." Instead we see lots of warm praise, exclamation points, question marks, "take this for what's its worth," etc. Where do the men get the authority to make pronouncements? Again, I'm serious about this and I expect some answers. Gae Lyn Henderson - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cathy Wilson" Subject: Re: [AML] Great Authors Date: 19 Jul 2000 10:46:10 -0600 I agree with Barbara's reaction to Stella in _How Stella Got Her Groove Back_. I read it as a single woman and saw it through that filter too. What a fantasy--to have a gorgeous man half your age fall irrevocably in love with you :). Cathy (Gileadi) Wilson Editing Etc. 15 East 600 North Price UT 84501 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eileen Subject: [AML] SILLITOE, _Windows on the Sea_ (Query) Date: 19 Jul 2000 10:43:16 -0600 I am leading a discussion on Linda Sillitoe's _Windows on the Sea and Other Stories." Pardon my ignorance, but where would I go to find some biographical information the author. Eileen eileens99@bigplanet.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Genre Date: 19 Jul 2000 11:02:59 -0600 Todd Robert Petersen wrote: > Science Fiction and its proponents often rely on the inventiveness of the > writer's ability to imagine the content as a rational for the genre's > overall inventiveness. Plots and characters remain the same for much of the > genre. This is not to include Lem, Hebert, Moorcock, Dick, and others. But that is only an illustration of Theodore Sturgeon's law, as it's called: does _any_ type of literature have a better ratio of 10% greatness, 90% garbage? I'll bet most literary stuff is no more inventive than mundane genre writing. Maybe that's the difference between literary and genre writings: it's easier to sell mediocre genre works than mediocre literary works, therefore more mediocrity gets published in genre writing. But when you skim the cream off the top of all categories and compare only them, I'll bet they all fare well, regardless of genre. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara@techvoice.com (Barbara R. Hume) Subject: [AML] Re: Good Writing Date: 19 Jul 2000 11:11:34 -0700 You make an excellent point here. I'm on several mailing lists made up almost exclusively of women, and that fact is clearly reflected in the tone of the messages. We're discussing writing on those lists, and even the most revered writers apologize for their statements. Just this morning I read a lengthy, well-reasoned-out response to a question about patriarchy, feminism, and romance fiction. At the end, the writer, whose opinion had been solicited, apologized for going on so long. We've been socialized to behave that way, and men have been socialized to value themselves and their opinions. This situation makes itself plain, as you have noted, in correspondence as we have here, and in conversations. A man wouldn't feel the need to aplogize for stating his opinion, and it irritates me that women do feel that need. When we write fiction, male and female characters have to reflect this socialization unless we show that they have been trained differently. Perhaps a father raised his daughter just as he would have raised a son, and she is surprised when she leaves home to find her opinions ignored or denigrated. There are so many little ways this shows up. A man storms out of the house, and his wife says, "Where are you going?" A woman storms out, and a man says, "Where do you think you're going?" Ever notice that? barbara hume, on her hobbyhorse, but this does relate to fiction writing Augh! You see? An apology! And I almost didn't notice it! >I would like to see one female AML-list member say something like "You're >quite right." Instead we see lots of warm praise, exclamation points, >question marks, "take this for what's its worth," etc. Where do the men get >the authority to make pronouncements? Again, I'm serious about this and I >expect some answers. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: eedh Subject: [AML] List Discourse (was: Good Writing) Date: 19 Jul 2000 10:32:25 -0700 [MOD: Apologies for not thinking of this new thread title earlier, to reflect the turn this particular part of the discussion has taken.] Gae Lyn Henderson wrote: > Eric, if you really feel that Tony responded with class, charity and > kindness, why do you continue in the tenor you describe as "mean-spirited . > . . diatribe"? I'm serious about this. . . So why do you use the antagonistic tone, what are we to make of >that? > Why not say, "I see it differently"? or "Consider this," or "That's one way > of perceiving it, but"? I see this issue differently. I have long admired this intellectual sparring on the list. Rarely have I felt it was mean-spirited. Instead, I have seen it as a sort of spirited play between intellectual equals. Whether we have letters after our names or not, it's fairly obvious who are the scholars and professionals. And I have really enjoyed watching them spar with each other. I've envied their ability to do it too. I suspect that that's what English majors learn to do- debate ideas. And what fun to watch it done in such spirited, lively ways. When Eric Samuelsen wrote: "You're quite right. There are other passages I could quote where he's just as clearly out of his mind", I giggled in delight. I assumed that Tony would have grinned when he read it. -Beth Hatch - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bob Hogge" Subject: [AML] Re: Great Authors Date: 19 Jul 2000 11:36:08 -0600 Todd, I thoroughly enjoyed reading your list. Quite a bit of fodder for a good = discussion! What about Holden Caulfield? Bob Hogge - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brent Hugh Subject: [AML] Horn-tooting: Upcoming Concerts in Utah Date: 19 Jul 2000 13:05:48 -0500 I seem to remember that AML-List has invited us to "toot our own horn" about any events we're participating in. [MOD: Arts-related horn-tooting always welcome!] I'm playing a series of five piano concerts in Utah throughout July and August. The first concert is already over, but I thought I would let you know about the remaining four. 2. Concert Program Wednesday, July 19th, 7:30 PM Madsen Recital Hall Harris Fine Arts Center, Brigham Young University, Provo, UT Free admission 3. Concert Program Wednesday, August 2nd, 7:00 PM, Temple Square, SLC, UT Free admission 4. Un-Raveling Bartok: The Young Person's Guide to Ravel and Bartok Saturday, August 5th, 4:00 PM Eccles Community Art Center 2580 Jefferson Ave Ogden, UT Admission: $5-Adults, $2-Children, Students & Seniors $15-Families 5. Concert Program Monday, August 14th, 7:00 PM Chase Fine Arts Center Utah State University, Logan, UT Admission: $7-Adults, $4-Students & Seniors, $20 Families About the programs: The *Young Person's Guide* features fun, interactive activities and great performances of Ravel and Bartok. Young Person's Guides are for children of all ages. The *Concert Program* is for attentive audiences age 7 and over. The program is Chopin, Preludes, Op. 28 Ravel, Valses nobles et sentimentales Bartok, Piano Sonata (1926) Tickets available at the door (for programs with an admission fee). Call 801-544-5032 for directions/more info. You can find program notes, early performances of the concert in MP3 format, information about the performer, and so on, at my Interactive Internet Concert page: http://www.mwsc.edu/~bhugh/recit ++++++++++++ Brent Hugh / bhugh@griffon.mwsc.edu ++++++++++++++ + Missouri Western St College Dept of Music, St. Joseph, MO + + Piano Home Page: http://www.mwsc.edu/~bhugh + + Internet Piano Concert: http://www.mwsc.edu/~bhugh/recit + ++++ Classical Piano MP3s: http://www.mp3.com/brent_d_hugh ++++ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: Re: [AML] Genre Date: 19 Jul 2000 14:12:50 -0500 Jason wrote: >no genre, SF included, is any "freer" or "better able" to experiment >or explore than any other. Each just does it in different ways. I rather like this, because it highlights for me one of the important points about genre-based criticism: that different genres are good at accomplishing different things. I'm going to go off on a limb here and make the broad, sweeping judgment that in my opinion, there is no such thing as a universal standard of good writing that transfers across genres. There are some universal-sounding values that can be stated, such as, "The writer's style should match the writer's purpose," or "A writer's language should match the intended audience"--but those are so general that in practical terms, they provide no real useful guidelines for the writer in any one given area or genre. They're relative. What this means is that "good" writing in one category will often be seen as not-good writing in another category--indeed, that readers trained to read one type of writing may be completely incapable of appreciating the values of another type of writing. Personally, I tend to agree with Michael that science fiction and fantasy offer values that are, on the whole, more satisfying both to me personally and to a broad range of readers than "mainstream literary" fiction, which as I see it is largely driven by a different type of market dynamics and written to a narrower market. But I also recognize that this is because I have a different set of interests than those for whom such fiction is obviously written. What drives me (and many other sf&f fans) bonkers is the casual use of "science fiction" (or worse yet, "sci-fi") as a put-down term, an assumption of poor quality and lack of literary seriousness. Well, from one point of view that's true enough, if literary seriousness is defined as writing to the values of the mainstream literary scene. Science fiction, as a whole, is written to a different set of values, although there are some authors such as Delany who can write with the best of the literary crowd, too. But if "literary seriousness" means dealing with serious themes and issues, wedding style and content, applying high levels of authorial skill--then sf&f can hold its own with anything else out there. (Another author who hasn't been mentioned yet--and ought to be, because I think he's simply astonishingly good, and if you haven't read him I think you've missed one of the major late-20th-century American authors, is Gene Wolfe--whose work is also pertinent to the subject of the List as deeply, and in my opinion successfully religious.) Brian Attebery (_Strategies of Fantasy_, 1992) makes an interesting argument that in the modern fantasy genre a la Tolkien, there's a reversal of surface and deep structure in the area of characterization from what we find in modern (though not necessarily postmodern) "realistic" fiction. In realistic fiction, the details of a specific characterization represent the surface level, while archetypal or symbolic resonances represent a deep structure. In fantasy, on the other hand, Attebery suggests that the archetype is what is on the surface, and the individual characterization represents something on the order of a deep structure. This, for example, is why a psychoanalytic approach to fantasy literature is so often unsatisfactory: it starts and stops with the part that's on the surface. Unfortunately, Attebery doesn't pursue this idea with sufficient concrete examples to make me certain how useful the idea might be in analyzing specific works. However, Attebery (and Tom Shippey, in _The Road to Middle-Earth) very effectively, in my view, demonstrate that the largely negative critical reaction to Tolkien himself is a function of the fact that many modernist critics (and more recent social-rhetorical critics as well) were looking for something so different from what Tolkien actually accomplished that they completely failed to judge his works on its own merits. Their definition of literature was so completely different from what Tolkien was doing that they failed to recognize his accomplishment, and thus couldn't engage in a truly measured discussion of his work. I'm not going to argue that Tolkien is "the" great 20th century author, although I think an interesting case could be made that his invented mythology is a more effective response to the same set of issues Eliot was tackling in _The Waste Land_. But his work fails what seems to us biased outsiders to be the basic doctrinal requirement of "serious" 20th century literature, which is to find meaninglessness at the core of the universe--or, at most, to find meaning only in the actions and responses of the individual in a meaningless universe. I realize that I'm being unfair to a genre in which I'm not widely read--but it seems to me that current literary fiction and, particularly, literary criticism are overwhelmingly unfriendly to the notion of discovering an outside source of meaning in the universe. Is it any wonder, then, that many of us who do believe in such an outside source of meaning find that contemporary literary fiction offers little that speaks to how we view the universe? Anyway. What I meant to say before I sidetracked myself is that it's very easy to blame a genre for not doing the things you want literature to do (as I've just demonstrated; see previous paragraph). I think it can often happen that the virtues of a particular type of writing (for its appreciators) are described as negatives by its detractors. In the case of science fiction, for example, the very preoccupation with the specifics of scientific and technological speculation that make the genre both an interesting and a serious one for some of us detracts, for others, from what "ought" to be the chief concern of literature--that is, the development of characters. To the degree that a writer of science fiction spends time talking/speculating about specific scientific ideas, it's seen as a preoccupation with the juvenilia of literature. To really enjoy science fiction for its own sake, you have to--in my view--have some acceptance of the idea that serious literature can be "about" scientific/technological ideas, as well as about people. Such an acceptance is simply outside some people's basic set of assumptions about literature. On the other hand, if the kind of society depicted in, say, a Henry James novel has little interest for you--people drifting about without visible means of support, expending unbelievable energy on making the subtlest of distinctions in the description of their own inner states of being--then you're likely to find it very hard to enjoy a Henry James novel, because that novel is *about* those characters in that society, just as an sf novel is to some degree at least "about" the scientific or technological ideas it includes. Good writing is not enough, in my experience, to maintain enjoyment when one's interest in the subject matter is lacking. (Actually, I can think of some exceptions to this...but on the whole, I think it's still true.) Which is one reason why I don't believe in a universal standard of "good writing." Intrinsic interest--something entirely outside the control of the author, except in the author's choice of what to write about--is, in my view, one of the largest factors in the question of how successful a work is in reaching its audience. Personally, I don't think that science fiction and fantasy are more susceptible to formula than mainstream literary fiction; just different types of formulas (to paraphrase Jason's statement). Of course, to those who enjoy a particular fictional genre, the limits will seem less limiting than those of other genres they dislike. Still, I do think there's a rather unusual situation in science fiction, in that there's a pretty broad community of authors and readers that embraces both the more "popular" end of the scale and more "literary." You get people like Gene Wolfe and Ursula Le Guin attending the same conventions as people like Andre Norton, Jack Chalker, and Alan Dean Foster. They all consider themselves part of the same community. Readers who start at the more popular or juvenile end of the scale are given more challenging books by other fans, and slowly work up to a broader appreciation of a variety of works. At least, that's the way it worked for me, and for others I know. And there's a certain degree of mutual respect and communication among authors of all stripes within the sf field--barring the sort of inhouse hairpulling and namecalling that, in its own way, simply attests to the existence of the community. (You don't get family fights without there's a family.) I don't see a similar thing happening between "popular" and "literary" mainstream writers. Completely different communities, completely different readers, completely different writers. So I guess I'd argue that from that perspective, sf may be a broader field than mainstream literary, not because of any innate virtue but simply because the label currently embraces a broader set of readers and practitioners. (Though I have to acknowledge that in my opinion, modern fantasy is still a much narrower field, despite some outstanding individual practitioners...) Well, I've maundered on far too long, and probably not advanced the discussion to any significant degree. But that's (at least part of) what I think... Jonathan Langford Speaking for myself, not the List jlangfor@pressenter.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: Re: [AML] RE: Good Writing Date: 19 Jul 2000 14:12:59 -0500 Gae Lyn wrote: >I would like to see one female AML-list member say something like "You're >quite right." Instead we see lots of warm praise, exclamation points, >question marks, "take this for what's its worth," etc. Where do the men get >the authority to make pronouncements? Again, I'm serious about this and I >expect some answers. Hmn... I think you've hit upon one of those culturally based gender differences in language style (as Barbara suggested), though I could point to a number of exceptions either way: women on the List who aren't at all shy about making definitive statements, and men who tend to qualify their conclusions in a variety of different ways. Perhaps because I'm a man, I think I would ask the question differently: not "Where do the men get the authority to make pronouncements," but "Why do the women feel they need authorization to make pronouncements"? No authority needed to speak on this List. I guess I'm curious, too, about the shift in emphasis from the beginning to the end of the paragraph I quoted above. The first two sentences seem to encourage a change in how the women speak on the List; the last two sentences seem to be calling men to account for how they speak. So I'm not sure whether Gae Lyn's calling us men to repentance or issuing a rallying cry to the women--or, perhaps, simply drawing the attention of all of us to the variety of styles used on the List, and to the choices we all make in how to couch our opinions. I do want to disagree with one implied assumption in Gae Lyn's original post (at least, I think it's implied): that is, that consensus is or ought to be our goal in the List. It's certainly *a* feasible goal, but not the only worthwhile one. The most important thing, in my view, is the keep the conversation going, whether we move toward agreement on particular issues or not. Jonathan Langford Speaking for myself, not the List jlangfor@pressenter.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Melissa Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Great Authors Date: 19 Jul 2000 13:10:33 -0600 On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 16:13:50 -0700, Barbara R. Hume wrote: >> Terry >>McMillan is a fairly popular contemporary writer, and in _How Stella = Got Her >>Groove Back_ she has some incredibly long run-on sentences. There are = very >>few rules that can't ever be broken, though you probably have to break = them >>the right way. (In _Stella_, for example, the run-on sentences are = part of >>a narrative style that's meant to represent the main character's = internal >>"voice".) > >I thought that the protagonist of STELLA was the best bit of >characterization I'd seen in ages. I'd read the book again to see how = she >did it if it weren't for the liberal sprinkling of the f-word = throughoutm >which I personally cannot stand. =20 This is the reason I haven't read more than the first chapter so far. I loved what I read, but I couldn't take the profanity at the time. (Some times I am more sensitive to such language than others. Right now is not the time.) But even that was sufficient to show how well the author = created her character--wonderful, funny stuff. Melissa Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jason Steed" Subject: Re: [AML] Re: Good Writing Date: 18 Jul 2000 20:28:21 PDT It is my understanding that there are several waves (occurring at different times throughout history) of "neo-Platonic" thought/philosophy. And IMHO, there seem to be several easily drawn parallels between Platonic philosophy and Mormon theology. If these things are true, how can anyone claim that Plato is always mentioned only to be refuted or disposed of? I think Eric Samuelsen dismisses a major figure in intellectual history too readily. Jason ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: [AML] RE: Good Writing Date: 19 Jul 2000 13:43:12 -0600 Gae Lyn: >Eric, if you really feel that Tony responded with class, charity and >kindness, why do you continue in the tenor you describe as >"mean-spirited= . . . diatribe"? I'm serious about this. I read both >yours and Tony's = comments with considerable interest. Both of >you make some excellent = points. There are considerable >grounds for consensus between you two. So = why do you use the >antagonistic tone, what are we to make of that? Honestly, I thought I'd changed the tone; I thought I was way nicer in the = second post in the first one. I felt bad, because I called Plato, who = Tony clearly admires, some strong things, without much evidence. So I was = trying to say things more kindly, more clearly, more directly, with a = change in tone that perhaps would be less confrontational. I clearly = failed in this attempt, and ask for yours and Tony's forgiveness. Can I = blame pain-killers? =20 As it happens, I think Plato is exceptionally dangerous. He opened the = door to an assumption which recurs periodically in certain kinds of = cultural criticism, which assumes that portrayal equates to advocacy. = That is to say, if I write about an act of violence, I'm pro-violence. = Or, at the very least, if I write about acts of violence, I automatically = create a situation in which violence is more likely to occur. =20 I not only reject this assumption, I think we pretty much all have to = reject it, or we don't have an art form. Literature depends on the = fictional portrayal of evil, of wrong. I know of no exceptions. This is = precisely why I so loathe the movie rating system; it tells us what sorts = of actions are shown on-screen, without giving us any idea of the context. = The movie rating system, is, in a word, Platonic. And must therefore, in = my opinion, be utterly rejected, ignored, rendered irrelevant. The fact is, there is a kind of cultural criticism, built on Platonic = foundations, that I personally reject, and that I am pretty always = prepared to do battle with. I think it's dangerous. I think it's false. = And so I overstate things and make pronouncements, and make enemies, when = I should be carrying on a conversation, and saying things gently and = listening to opposing points of view, even those I detest. Especially = those I detest. So, apologies to Tony and to Gae Lynn. I really do mean that. And if = someone can show me a quotation from Plato in which he talks about = literature sensibly, I'd be delighted to read it. (Okay, he's a little = more positive in the Ion than in the Republic. Even there, he comes = across like a guy who's a few chlamys shy of a chiton.) Gaelyn does suggest that the General Authorities occasionally sound pretty = Platonic when they talk about popular culture. I've noticed this myself, = and find it deeply deeply troubling. But when they talk about pornography,= they're discussing something for which the Greeks didn't even have a = word. Greek sexual mores were worlds removed from ours. They competed in = the nude, and admired the human form in much of their sculpture. They had = a warrior culture, in which sexual relations between a man and boy was = seen as representing the richest and deepest kind of love, and was also = tied into their notions of masculinity, machismo, sports prowess, war. = (Male/female love was decidedly secondary, and women were worse than = second class citizens.) They didn't even have a concept for obscenity. = Contemporary popular culture, with its dehumanizing and commodifying = images of young women, treated almost exclusively as sexual objects, just = wasn't something they had, or could even have comprehended. So when our = General Authorities talk about the negative affects of pornographic = imagery, their discussion is one that utterly unanticipated by Plato or = Aristotle, and one for which the principles espoused by Greek philosophers = are completely irrelevant. At least, that's the best answer I can come up = with. I think maybe certain kinds of imagery, at the margins and extremes = of pop culture, should be treated Platonically. =20 Here's where Gae Lyn really nailed me, though. >Where do the men get the authority to make pronouncements? >Again, I'm = serious about this and I expect some answers. D&C 121. I have a little authority, as I supposed it, and I immediately = began to exercise a kind of rhetorical unrighteous dominion. And made = something of a donkey out of myself in the process. I don't, of course, have any authority to make pronouncements on these = matters. I teach graduate dramatic theory at BYU, and that gives me a few = credentials, I guess. (He said wistfully, wishing that that meant = anything, or mattered, at all, which it doesn't.) These are issues we = deal with in my theory classes. But arrogance and pride are my Achilles' = heels, (Achilles was, after all, a guy) and I gave in to them far too = readily. Thanks for calling me on it. =20 Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: Re: [AML] Genre Date: 19 Jul 2000 13:53:59 -0600 (MDT) JP Steed wrote: > All of them. There is nothing new under the sun. I presume you're arguing for SF's superiority here because SF can create a world we've never heard of before, inhabited by creatures we've never heard of. > But isn't every piece of writing the creation of a world? Doesn't Carver create a "new" world when he writes about blue-collar Joe who's trying to quit smoking, whose kid gets in a fight with the boy down the street? You want to say "no", I presume, because this world and > the creatures in it are recognizable. They're not "new." But you'll be hard-pressed to convince me that SF worlds aren't recognizable; they're still _worlds_, in some way relatable to my world (as Carver's is), and the creatures and their interactions with one another are > still relatable to me and my interactions with others. You've just made up "new" pronouns, named them differently, etc. Creating a "new" planet in SF is no more "new" and "original", IMO, then creating a > "new" county (Faulkner's Yoknapawtawpha) in "literary" fiction; and creating a "new" creature with three arms and one eye is no different from creating a "new" woman who is so desperate to keep her husband in > his place that she shoots him (Hemingway's "Short Happy Life of > F.M."). Despitem displaying a slight lack of understanding about Science Fiction (It's much more than giving a human three arms, four legs and green skin) that argument could almost be taken to prove Marion "Doc" Smith's half-serious contention that EVERY form of literature is a sub-set of Science Fiction/Fantasy (or Speculative Fiction as some academics and SF authors now call it). --Ivan Wolfe - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Johnson Subject: [AML] List Discourse (was: Good Writing) Date: 19 Jul 2000 16:14:13 -0400 At 11:11 AM 7/19/2000 -0700, you wrote: >You make an excellent point here. I'm on several mailing lists made up >almost exclusively of women, and that fact is clearly reflected in the tone >of the messages. We're discussing writing on those lists, and even the most >revered writers apologize for their statements. Just this morning I read a >lengthy, well-reasoned-out response to a question about patriarchy, >feminism, and romance fiction. At the end, the writer, whose opinion had >been solicited, apologized for going on so long. We've been socialized to >behave that way, and men have been socialized to value themselves and their >opinions. This situation makes itself plain, as you have noted, in >correspondence as we have here, and in conversations. A man wouldn't feel >the need to aplogize for stating his opinion, and it irritates me that women >do feel that need. Sigh, I wish I could talk my wife into participation on this list. She certainly does not feel the need to apologize for stating her opinion (Not meant critically, I love it). Of course, maybe in writing???????? Richard B. Johnson Husband, Father, Grandfather, Puppeteer, Playwright, Writer, Director, Actor, Thingmaker, Mormon, Person, Fool I sometimes think that the last persona is the most important http://www2.gasou.edu/commarts/puppet/ Georgia Southern University Puppet Theatre - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Margaret Young Subject: [AML] re: (Andrew's Poll) Mormon Short Stories Date: 19 Jul 2000 14:25:50 -0600 I really appreciate the huge list of Mormon short stories Andrew supplied. I've saved it in a separate file and would like to provide it to my creative writing students. Andrew, may I have your permission to do that? And it's so wonderful to have Eric actively back on the list. I appreciate his placement of my name so prominently in "best short story writers" but I'm afraid I must respectfully disagree. I think some of my stories are good, but honestly, others of my stories (even published ones) not quite there. Eric puts Levi Peterson as our best short story writer. Levi is a better novelist, I think, than a short story writer. I love his "The Gift" and "Canyons of Grace," but find him capable of being contrived or of overstating. (I think "Trinity" is an example of both those flaws). I have always admired Doug Thayer's work, and think his best stories are some of the best our culture will ever produce ("Red Tailed Hawk" and "The Clinic" in particular). But he is not CONSISTENTLY brilliant--though he has remarkable gifts and insight. I would love to see some essays by Doug Thayer. As I've listened to his more recent writing (at a reading), it struck me that his observations are keen, but he tends to use a lot of interior monologue. I'd love to see how his keen eye reveals the world through the personal essay. So, honestly, I wouldn't put any of the three Eric lists (including myself) as the best short story writers. I think that even at my best, I'm not up to Brady Udall. And Mary Clyde is more consistently good than the three writers Eric lists. I'd have to put my vote for Brady's _Hounds_, even though it's not necessarily "Mormon." And remember that there are MANY writers whose work we don't yet know because it hasn't been widely circulated. Todd Peterson is a fine writer. Maybe Cornerstone Press should look at his collection. Often, it's not the writer but the story which stands out to me, and I find that pretty much all of us can produce a few flops (Leslie Norris said to plan on two failed stories before producing a good one) in the midst of great successes. It is illuminating that _Turning Hearts_ is not nearly as good as _Bright Angels and Familiars_--and the reason is its attention to "popular" styles and even "popular" writers rather than more literary types. I think it's time for a new _Bright Angels_--and it's not _In Our Lovely Deseret_, because that collection is not representative of the mainstream. I already sent a ball to someone ready to pursue a collection from more diverse authors and am grateful it was caught. Let me toss out another ball: Someone needs to edit a new collection which includes the "established" LITERARY authors (Mormon) and considers the less established ones who may have a story of two of supreme quality. _Bright Angels_ should not be the final really good Mormon short story collection, and the follow-ups (_Turning Hearts_ and _In Our Lovely Deseret_) do not serve our community nearly as well as they should. Hope someone decides to run with that one. I think Todd Peterson would be a prime candidate, frankly. He certainly has the editorial experience. Now, to plays: I would have to say that I love Eric's plays as much as I love Tim Slover's--though they're very different (and we have more of Eric's than Tim's). Both Slover and Samuelsen are wonderful writers, and their work will, I predict, stand the test of time. I must say that I admire Thom Duncan's _Survival of the Fittest_ also and would love to see more of his work. Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth. [Margaret Young] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Margaret Young Subject: [AML] Sabbatical Date: 19 Jul 2000 14:25:50 -0600 [MOD: This message was split off from Margaret's previous one to help keep the subject lines straight.] I am sensing that I will only be able to be on the AML list until the end of summer. Deseret Book would like volume 2 of Darius's and my trilogy two months earlier than planned, and come Fall, I will need to drop every extaneous thing in my life so I can devote my time to that project. I have had to choose between the AML list and giving up my nine-year-old. Afraid I'm keeping Michael and will have to leave the list in August. But that's one more month of delightful online conversation with y'all. [Margaret Young] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] The Onion Skewers Mormons Date: 19 Jul 2000 14:27:15 -0700 One of my favorite web sites, The Onion, today started running a satirical piece on Mormonism. It's at http://www.theonion.com/onion3624/mormon_loses_inhibitions.html. It's interesting to wonder where they got their material. Some of seems insiderish (use of Mormon names), but much of it seems outsiderish. I wonder if they got the idea from the recent news item about the Mormon kid who spiked cupcakes with sleeping pills . . . Chris Bigelow * * * * * * Read my novella about Mormon missionaries at http://www1.mightywords.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=EB00016373. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: [AML] List Discourse (was: Good Writing) Date: 19 Jul 2000 15:39:33 -0600 "Barbara R. Hume" wrote: > There are so many little ways this shows up. A man storms out > of the house, and his wife says, "Where are you going?" A woman storms out, > and a man says, "Where do you think you're going?" Ever notice that? Not all men. I don't think I've ever said, "Where _do you think_ you're going?" -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: [AML] Re: Good Writing Date: 19 Jul 2000 15:44:40 -0600 I have to be very careful about this. =20 Jason wrote: >If these things are true, how can anyone claim that=20 >Plato is always mentioned only to be refuted or disposed of? I >think = Eric Samuelsen dismisses a major figure in intellectual >history too = readily. I do not dismiss Plato as an important intellectual figure or as an = important philosopher. I do think that his ideas about drama (and by = extension literature), which make up large parts of three of the ten books = of The Republic, are dangerous, unworkable and foolish. Even Homer = nodded. The Cave is a brilliant analogy, and many of his other ideas are = important and valuable. I hope I've made that clear. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: [AML] Re: Good Writing Date: 19 Jul 2000 16:18:30 -0600 "Eric R. Samuelsen" wrote: > These are issues we deal with in my theory classes. But arrogance and pride are my Achilles' heels, (Achilles was, after all, a guy) and I gave in to them far too readily. Thanks for calling me on it. > > Eric Samuelsen Methinks thou dost apologize too readily. Unless you meant for your statements to be offensive, you are innocent of any wrongdoing. The rest of us should not take offense where none is meant. We should look beyond the rhetoric, for whatever germs of truth are there. And there are always germs of truth in what you say. Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] The Onion Skewers Mormons Date: 19 Jul 2000 17:17:30 -0500 At 14:27 19-07-00 -0700, you wrote: >One of my favorite web sites, The Onion, today started running a satirical >piece on Mormonism. > >It's at http://www.theonion.com/onion3624/mormon_loses_inhibitions.html. > >It's interesting to wonder where they got their material. Some of seems >insiderish (use of Mormon >names), but much of it seems outsiderish. > >I wonder if they got the idea from the recent news item about the Mormon >kid who spiked cupcakes >with sleeping pills . . . > >Chris Bigelow I don't have any inside info about the author's identity, but I would not be at all surprised if we found out that the author is on this list, or at least someone who meets the major qualifications (writing & religion) for membership. No, I'm not confessing, either. -- Ronn! :) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Hansen Subject: [AML] Re: Good Writing Date: 19 Jul 2000 16:46:15 -0600 "Eric R. Samuelsen" wrote: > As it happens, I think Plato is exceptionally dangerous. He opened the= door to an assumption which recurs periodically in certain kinds of cult= ural criticism, which assumes that portrayal equates to advocacy. That i= s to say, if I write about an act of violence, I'm pro-violence. Or, at = the very least, if I write about acts of violence, I automatically create= a situation in which violence is more likely to occur. . . > Gaelyn does suggest that the General Authorities occasionally sound pre= tty Platonic when they talk about popular culture. I've noticed this mys= elf, and find it deeply deeply troubling . . . I think maybe certain kin= ds of imagery, at the margins and extremes of pop culture, should be trea= ted Platonically. OK - I'll bite here. The basic question it seems is being asked (by Plat= o as well as other) is whether art (literature, theater, music, etc.) aff= ects behavior. If it does not affect behavior, then it seems a waste of = time. But if art does affect behavior then it has the potential to influ= ence both positively and negatively. If a book through its characters and= plot espouses values which are good and appropriate, it has great potent= ial to influence people for good. But, the converse must also be true. I think that as an artist you have to believe that your art will affect p= eople - and with that comes the assumption that some art can affect peopl= e in a negative way. (Whether Plato would phrase the question this way I= have no idea!) The question to me is not whether art affects positively= or negatively, but how to judge which art is appropriate or inappropriat= e. Even Eric mentioned that "certain kinds of images, at the margains an= d extremes of pop culture" should be avoided - presumably because they wo= uld have a negative effect on a person. Certainly pornography would fit = into that category (whatever that is!). So, in my view, would gratuitous= violence in many of the Schwartzeneger (sp?) killing movies. I've also = found that what some see as clearly inappropriate, others believe to be b= eautiful and edifying. The biggies always seem to be language, sex and v= iolence - but is it really that simple? My question is what are "on the= margins and extremes of pop culture" that should be avoided? Dave Hansen troubled by Platonic discussions. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terry L Jeffress" Subject: Re: [AML] Genre Date: 19 Jul 2000 17:06:14 -0600 The Set Theory of "Good Writing" We often talk of "good writing" or attempting to achieve "the great Mormon novel," but "good writing" means different things to different people. Since I have a logical/mathematical bent, I tend develop my personal literary theory using the tools from scientific disciplines. So, inspired by Jonathan's discussion of genre and Todd's excellent (and riotous) declaration of "good writers," I will put forward my Set Theory of Genre and Good Writing. Given the universe of creative works, each reader creates unique sets of those works with labels such as "good," "average," "bad," "trash," and "the greatest work ever created by the hand of a homo sapien." For any individual, there exists several huge sets: "works never read" and "inaccessible works" (works no longer in print or works in a foreign language). The sets "good" and "works never read" are not mutually exclusive. That is, just because someone hasn't read a work, doesn't place that work in the "good writing" set. For example, how many individuals would say that Shakespeare is a great writer, place his works in the "good writing" set, but have not read all his works? Given the highly variable nature of human beings, the probability of two individuals having identical sets should equal zero. (Ok, for the youngest, preliterate children, "works never read" and "inaccessible works" will contain the universe of works with all other sets empty. But this situation doesn't last long. Even my three-year-old daughter has sets of "good" [Mulan, Teletubbies] and "boring" [The Kid, Pokemon: The Movie].) When you analyze the intersection of the "good" sets, you can quickly identify major genres. For example, take the subset of all readers who place a work by Asimov in the "good" set ("Asimov readers"). Take the intersection of all the "good" sets of the Asimov readers, and you will probably come up with a good canon -- the universally accepted works -- for Asimov's genre. If you don't take a pure intersection of the Asimov readers' "good" sets, but instead select all the works that appear in 70% or more of the Asimov readers' "good" sets, you create a genre list. (The number 70% is arbitrary and would have to be proven by experimentation.) To name a genre, we analyze the commonalities of the members of the genre list. Thus we have lists of science fiction, fantasy, horror, mystery, mainstream (which I would label "academic"), and many other similar lists. Amazon.com has stolen my theory and uses it to create book recommendations. On the Amazon.com web site, you can rate books you have read, and the Amazon.com server correlates your ratings to other readers' ratings. The server then gives you a list of works with the highest correlation to other readers with ratings similar to your own. So far, my set theory only presents a formalization of what most of us intrinsically understand about genre. But let's apply the theory to finding the "best" works. The easiest definition of "best" would be the intersection of all "good" sets, but we can also assume that the intersection of all "good" sets is probably empty. If there is no single "best" work, then no matter what method we use to determine a set of "best" works, someone will disagree with one or more of the selections in the list. So we must satisfy ourselves with an ordered list of works. The "best" work then becomes the work that appears in the most "good" sets. You can also create lists of the "best" works of a particular genre. Unfortunately, none of the sets are static. The universe of works constantly acquires new works, the universe of readers changes as some die and others are born, and each reader's "good" set changes with the reader's age and experience. Many postmodernists conclude that since there cannot be any "best" literature, we must accept all works as literature and throw out traditional criticism. Any attempt at assigning a list of "best" works would be the work of an elitist who wants to place his own priorities and values above the rest. Even though we cannot truly label a work as the "best," the high correlation among the "good" sets of like-genre-minded people serves us well. We read reviews to garner a sense of how well that unread work fits into our set of "good" works. Almost no one wants to invest time in a "bad" work. I have always thought of literary criticism as the study of how literature works. Reworded for my set theory, literary criticism studies why a work appears in so many "good" sets. Literary criticism still has a place in the postmodern world, but we must approach criticism with the understanding that we cannot address "all" literature with a single form of criticism. In this sense Aristotle and Plato fail. They attempted to create systems that encompassed all literature, but, in Aristotle's case, you cannot say that all successful literature succeeds because that literature all applies _mimesis._ Aristotle's model has many uses, but we shouldn't be afraid to apply a form of criticism and then throw that form out if it just doesn't fit the literature. Instead, many critics would throwing out the literature because it doesn't fit the form. Literary criticism becomes not just the study of what works in literature, but must also involve a study of the components of each genre. Of course, someone will always disagree, but isn't the fun in the discussion, not the conclusion. -- Terry Jeffress P.S. Let me second Jonathan's recommendation of Gene Wolfe. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gae Lyn Henderson" Subject: RE: [AML] RE: Good Writing Date: 19 Jul 2000 17:46:47 -0600 Eric R. Samuelsen said: So I was trying to say things more > kindly, more clearly, more directly, with a change in tone that > perhaps would be less confrontational. I clearly failed in this > attempt, and ask for yours and Tony's forgiveness. Can I blame > pain-killers? Eric, I always enjoy your posts because you are opinionated and not afraid to tell it like you see it. Jonathan points out that we may not be looking for consensus on the list, and obviously intellectual sparring has its own pleasures. My concern is simply that the debate format sometimes moves people further apart, and solidifies what may have been tentative positions into entrenched absolutism. Real-life consequences ensue (Brian Evenson, Cecilia Farr). > > As it happens, I think Plato is exceptionally dangerous. He > opened the door to an assumption which recurs periodically in > certain kinds of cultural criticism, which assumes that portrayal > equates to advocacy. That is to say, if I write about an act of > violence, I'm pro-violence. Or, at the very least, if I write > about acts of violence, I automatically create a situation in > which violence is more likely to occur. I agree with you in that such limited application of Platonic theory is overly simplistic. > > The fact is, there is a kind of cultural criticism, built on > Platonic foundations, that I personally reject, and that I am > pretty always prepared to do battle with. I think it's > dangerous. I think it's false. And so I overstate things and > make pronouncements, and make enemies, when I should be carrying > on a conversation, and saying things gently and listening to > opposing points of view, even those I detest. Especially those I detest. > My feeling is that we must look closely at (and listen to) the "one who is not the same." The Other. Even the one whose opinions are faulty and skewed and messed up--the uneducated, the unliberated, the naive. Because if we don't we misuse our liberal educations and our initiated sensibilities. We reinforce the stereotype that I hear bandied around regularly in the ward I live in, that the intellectual is a particularly dangerous enemy, frightening, and to be dismissed. The intellectual is proud. I tell my students, on the contrary, that education makes people more humble, because they realize just how little they do know. > > Gaelyn does suggest that the General Authorities occasionally > sound pretty Platonic when they talk about popular culture. I've > noticed this myself, and find it deeply deeply troubling. But > when they talk about pornography, they're discussing something > for which the Greeks didn't even have a word. Greek sexual mores > were worlds removed from ours. They competed in the nude, and > admired the human form in much of their sculpture. They had a > warrior culture, in which sexual relations between a man and boy > was seen as representing the richest and deepest kind of love, > and was also tied into their notions of masculinity, machismo, > sports prowess, war. (Male/female love was decidedly secondary, > and women were worse than second class citizens.) Yes! The fact that women are virtually nonexistent from the bedrock of the Western intellectual tradition is probably at the root of the dehumanization of women that is somehow so easily accepted in contemporary culture. Women themselves buy into their objectification, in Mackenzie's words (commenting on de Beauvoir), the female "does not experience her body as the instrumentality of her will, but rather as the plaything of forces over which she has no control." Literature and art have tremendous potential to demonstrate to both genders the deeply flawed foundation of such activity. Women are people--with feelings! When Platonic theory is used to steer us away from "evil" representations, perhaps one way of countering that mode of attack is to empower human beings with greater agency. And I've seen you argue most effectively, Eric, for that kind of conscious and informed choice-making and I plead with you to continue to do so. One more quotation from Mackenzie (whom I happened to be reading this morning): "It is only insofar as there are others who, by exercising their freedom in projects, disclose and transform the world, that there can be a world at all in relation to which the individual defines herself or himself. Others therefore open out possibilities for us in relation to which or against which we define our possibilities." I think Eric is one who helps us define our opinions and that is very valuable. Thanks for > calling me on it. > > Eric Samuelsen Thank you, Eric, for your generous response. Gae Lyn Henderson - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ed Snow (by way of Jonathan Langford ) Subject: [AML] (Curiouser & Curiouser) Confessions of a Former F.A.R.M.S. Date: 20 Jul 2000 10:44:35 -0500 CURIOUSER & CURIOUSER: MORMON MUSINGS Confessions of a Former F.A.R.M.S. Filing Clerk; or The Top 10 Rejected F.A.R.M.S. Papers by Edgar C. Snow, Jr. From 1981 through 1984 I was a F.A.R.M.S. volunteer. What is F.A.R.M.S., you might ask? Not to be confused with a short-lived agriculturally oriented organization that went by the same acronym (Farmers Are Raging Money Slurpers, a right-wing Eisenhower administration era anti-farm subsidy lobbying group based in Utah), F.A.R.M.S. stands for the Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, a Mormon apologetics think-tank that started as a non-profit and is now essentially a research arm of BYU. My involvement started when I came across a copy of Barry Fell's proposed translation of the Anthon Transcript on the "Mormon Document Underground" (another essay topic). Fell, a Harvard marine biology professor and amateur epigrapher, claimed in a cover letter attached to his translation that the language on the Anthon Transcript was actually early medieval Maghribi, an North African language. The attached translation resembled 1 Nephi 1 to such a remarkable degree it seemed likely to me that Fell had cheated by using 1 Nephi 1 for his so-called "translation." In search of answers, I wandered all over BYU campus looking for a professor who could confirm or deny Fell's conclusions.=20 My first stop was at Hugh Nibley's office. I knocked on the door and heard a faint voice inside say, "Go away." So I did. After knocking on many doors, I finally tracked down Keith Meservy, my "Writings of Isaiah" professor, who told me I should go talk "to Jack Welch at F.A.R.M.S." I wandered over to the law school building and met with Brother Welch, a tax law professor, who graciously entertained my questions and told me that Fell's work was--I could tell he was trying to be as gracious and diplomatic as possible--"Apparent hogwash." Then he said, "If you're really interested in rigorous, respectable, orthodox Book of Mormon research, you've come to the right place." He explained his vision for F.A.R.M.S. and made an instant convert out of me. I even volunteered to put in a couple of hours a week as a file clerk in the law school basement, the original F.A.R.M.S. headquarters.=20 As a volunteer, much of my time was spent filing (and, I now confess, reading) what they called in those days, "preliminary reports"--works-in-progress, really--about a variety of Book of Mormon and Pearl of Great Price issues, and filling orders for preliminary reports and reprints of published articles about the Book of Mormon. In addition to time, I also donated some spit to F.A.R.M.S. at an envelope-stuffing and stamp-licking party for the distribution of one of the earlier F.A.R.M.S. newsletters. To this day I regret not asking Brother Welch whether my spittle donation was tax deductible. I felt fortunate cutting my tongue and lips while slobbering on envelopes and stamps sitting next to the likes of John Sorenson and other giants of groundbreaking Mormon scholarship, and watching them stick their tongues out in support of the Book of Mormon.=20 It was also my privilege, as a file clerk, to rummage through the F.A.R.M.S. files and review the papers that had been rejected for publication. I found that many of the rejected papers were almost as interesting as the ones actually published by F.A.R.M.S. Now, after all these years, it is my pleasure to present to you, dear reader, the list of my top ten favorite papers rejected by F.A.R.M.S., along with short abstracts of their contents. And since truth is stranger than fiction, although not nearly as funny, I've decided to make this top ten list a reader quiz and throw in some titles of papers that were never sent to and rejected by F.A.R.M.S., but that should have been. Have fun guessing the real McCoys; the answers are at the bottom. Quiz: Believe F.A.R.M.S. or Not 10. "The Influence of the Book of Mormon on Led Zeppelin lyrics."=20 Abstract: According to a recently discovered, unpublished autobiography of John Bonham, "Stairway to Heaven" and other songs written by Jimmy Page and Robert Plant were influenced by their readings of Clinton Larsen's _Stories of the Book of Mormon_ while eating marijuana brownies. Reason for rejection: Welch's dog ate the only copy of the paper. 9. "Nephi the Ninja: Martial Arts in Mesoamerica and the Book of Mormon." Abstract: Nephi's use of a veil and the sword of Laban are compared to Mesoamerican bas-relief sculptures showing karate movements. Reason for rejection: No sources cited for hand-drawn illustrations of bas-relief sculptures which look suspiciously like Bruce Lee movie posters. 8. "Chiasmus in Erotic Mayan Poetry." Abstract: The newly discovered Mayan codex containing poetry from Catliltlilus, court poet to Pacal in Palenque, contains numerous chiastic passages. Reason for rejection: Paper contains translation of passages. 7. "Meroitica and the Book of Mormon." Abstract: Characters on the Anthon Transcript are favorably compared to the "reformed" Egyptian characters used by the kingdom in Meroe, south of Egypt. Reason for rejection: Use of Anthon Transcript discovered by Mark Hoffman. 6. "The Constipation of Mesoamerican Secret Societies."=20 Abstract: Secretioned conflagrations in the Book of Mormon are existentially compared too recently discovered remains constipating of an esophagus of a Mezoamerican warlard and the translation of his fumiary obsequisousies from a Mayan cotex.=20 Reason for rejection: No Urim and Thummum available to translate typos. 5. "How to Interpret the Interpretations of Joseph Smith's Interpretations of Facsimile No. 2." Abstract: Shows that interpretations of interpretations of interpretations can easily be misinterpreted. Reason for rejection: Interpretations too interpretive. 4. "Humor in the Book of Mormon." Abstract: Argues that the Book of Mormon contains humor, as illustrated by an analysis of the following passages: Alma 9:2-3; Alma 55: 31-32; and Alma 57:10. Reason for rejection: Not convincing. 3. "Mayan Chocolate Milk and the Book of Mormon." Abstract: The existence of pre-Columbian chocolate milk shown flowing from an oval jar on the Izapan Tree of Life stone (Stela 5) supports the historicity of the Book of Mormon and further explains why Ovaltine isn't called Roundtine. Ancient Mayans had oval canisters in which they carried cocoa beans. When the Lamanites encountered Mayans, the Lamanites presumably adopted their ways, language and breakfast beverages. Later, when there were no "ites", Nephites presumably obtained the cocoa bean technology and made circular, rather than oval, canisters in which to carry ground up cocoa beans for mixing with goat's milk, but they retained the original Mayan term for "oval." "Tine" is shown to derive from a possible Greek influence among the Mulekites.=20 Reason for rejection: Contains caffeine. 2. "The Identification of Cureloms and Cummoms in the Book of Mormon Through Modern Cryptozoological Analysis."=20 Abstract: Evidence is marshaled to identify Bigfoot as curelom and the jackelope as cummom. Reason for rejection: Other research demonstrates that Bigfoot is Cain and the jackelope is the Book of Mormon goat. 1. "Ancient Mesoamerican Hills Prove the Book of Mormon True."=20 Abstract: The Book of Mormon reports the existence of many hills. Although unknown in Joseph Smith's time, ancient Mesoamerica featured numerous hills, many of which meet the following criteria required by descriptions of hills in the Book of Mormon: (i) there must be land; (ii) the land must be flat in some areas; (iii) the land must rise in elevation in some areas; and (iv) after rising, the land must descend in elevation in those areas. Reason for rejection: Needs more examples. Answers: 10. Not. 9. Not. 8. Not. 7. Believe F.A.R.M.S. Paper submitted by Ed Snow and rejected because the author had no clue what he was writing about. 6. Not. 5. Believe F.A.R.M.S. Paper submitted by Ed Snow and rejected because the author had no clue what he was writing about. 4. Not.=20 3. Not. 2. Not. 1. Not. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Among best sellers, Barnes & Noble ranks _Of Curious Workmanship: Musings on= Things Mormon_ in its top 100 (thousand, that is). Available now at 20% off= http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=3D5SLFMY1T= YD&mscssid=3DHJW5QQU1SUS12HE1001PQJ9XJ7F17G3C&srefer=3D&isbn=3D1560851368 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail =96 Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sharlee Glenn" Subject: [AML] List Discourse Date: 19 Jul 2000 20:52:10 -0600 Barbara Hume wrote: "We've been socialized to behave that way, and men have been socialized to value themselves and their opinions. This situation makes itself plain, as you have noted, in correspondence as we have here, and in conversations. A man wouldn't feel the need to aplogize for stating his opinion, and it irritates me that women do feel that need." I'm not sure that this is a fair generalization (are generalizations ever fair?). AML-lister, Skip Hamilton, is unfailingly courteous, and, yes, even apologetic in his posts. Richard Johnson is always respectful of other points of view, as are Jonathan Langford, Benson Parkinson, and Harlow Clark. And I can think of several of us women (yes, I include myself) who don't seem to have any problem at all voicing our opinions. Ardis Parshall, Margaret Young, Gae Lyn Henderson, Cathy Wilson, Barbara Hume, Marilyn Brown, and Melissa Proffitt immediately come to mind. Truth is, we could all benefit by being less arrogant in discourse, more aware of our own fallibility. Sharlee Glenn glennsj@inet-1.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Perry Subject: [AML] List Discourse Date: 19 Jul 2000 22:35:20 -0600 Eric: > > Here's where Gae Lyn really nailed me, though. >>Where do the men get the > >authority to make pronouncements? >Again, I'm serious about this and I >> expect some answers. Men get the authority to make pronouncements of their own opinions by the mere fact that they are human beings with opinions. So do women. I love to hear people's strong opinions--even if I totally disagree. Much better than being luke-warm. Rather than rail against "pronouncements," especially on a list we joined to be part of a literary discussion, i. e. different opinions about things literary, I encourage more of it! What I really DID like about Gae Lyn's comment was her last line--a blatant command to get busy and answer her! Yeah! I don't think the list exists to create consensus. It exists to share knowledge, personal reactions to literature, correct my spelling, and who knows what else, but not to bring us all to some imaginary or final agreement. That's my opinion. Feel free to disagree. :-) Steve - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Genre Date: 19 Jul 2000 23:29:23 -0600 Jonathan Langford wrote: >I rather like this, because it highlights for me one of the important >points about genre-based criticism: that different genres are good at >accomplishing different things. Jonathan then went on to talk about a lot of things that I so violently agree with that all I can say is: BRAVO! You covered most of the cogent points in Scott's Standard Lecture On Genre Versus Mainstream Fiction (Part IV), but let me touch on a couple of them again. I think the way you presented Brian Attebery's thoughts hits the issues square on the head. In mainstream literary fiction, the reader comes to the table with the assumption that the surface details are intended to expose a metaphorical, or hidden layer of meaning that is at least as much a part of the reading experience as the outward physical detail. The use of layered images, second (and third and fourth) meanings, and interpreted (I hate that term--it carries so much baggage) detail is a convention of the genre. Readers come to the genre with the expectation that meaning will not be found at the surface. In sf (speculative fiction, meaning most of the fantastic genres), the surface detail often *is* the expression of the underlying metaphor--the three-fingered blue alien is already a clear representation of the "other," so there's no need to layer that concept beneath the evident choice of setting or situation. This frees the author to address the foreground issue directly, with the bulk of the story devoted to speculative solutions to that issue. To restate more concisely... I think mainstream literary fiction often works to identify a problem and state that problem powerfully. Climax comes when the character finally understands the problem (with solution implied, or only minimally illustrated). I think sf often takes the problem as a given, and attempts to discover possible solutions to it. The problem is stated directly within the fantastic premise, and climax comes when the character either solves the problem, or fails utterly. That's why many mainstream literary readers find sf to be banal--their reason for reading is to discover the problem, which the sf reader states clearly early in the story. The rest is just imaginative flailing with little to interest them. Similarly, that's why many genre readers find mainstream stories to be somewhat incomplete--their reason for reading is to discover solutions to clearly stated problems, and mainstream stories that end with a statement of the problem seem like the first chapter, not the complete story. To the mainstream reader, a true understanding of a problem implies a resolution of it, but discovery of the true problem is why they read. To the sf reader, the problem is only the beginning of a story whose value lies in its solutions. Thus, Jonathan nails it when he says that different readers decode stories differently. Most genre fiction fails miserably when decoded by a reader seeking a hidden problem that isn't hidden. Most mainstream fiction seems to stop just as the problem is finally stated for a reader decoding for solutions to the problem. (Was that more concise? It took up more words, so I guess that means it wasn't. Oh well...) Tying back to Mormon literature, I think this places most of what's written for Mormons into the broad category of "genre" in the sense that Mormons tend to write stories that explore answers to clearly stated problems (as do most science fiction, mystery, romance, fantasy, horror, and other genre stories). This is why Levi Peterson has had limited success. Pragmatic Mormons want answers, not questions. Levi often focuses on clearly stating the question, with the belief that answer is implies by true understanding of problem. For example, in _The Backslider_ the novel ends with Frank coming to understand himself--and more importantly, understanding the nature of grace and the reality of redemption. Levi shows one scene of Frank specifically accepting physical desire for his wife as a good and healthy thing, and uses that to show that Frank *will* come to good resolution (or at least *can,* now that he understands the true nature of his pain), thus requiring no further detail, and leaving further solution to the imagination of the reader. The same might be said of _The Giant Joshua_ and other Mormon stories that have been accepted by the mainstream, but largely ignored or rejected by Mormon readers. The Mormon readers were reading out of genre, and wanted solution, not a statement of the problem. Which is why so much of general Mormon fiction is so little appreciated by the literati. By their definition, Mormon fiction (like all genre fiction) emphasizes all the wrong things--and by clearly stating problems falls (rightly) within their definition of simplistic or banal. Conversely, mainstream literary fiction is either opaque or truncated by the definitions of those who read genre and are seeking solutions, not problems (and rightly so). Does this make genre writing easier than mainstream literary writing? I don't think so, and I don't think it's a particularly useful question. Different animals with different constraints (conventions, boundaries, assumptions, cliches, tendencies--whatever). So everyone is right and everyone is wrong, all at the same time. And the enduring stories are those that cross over the problem/solution boundary. (Relativity--is that science fiction, or mainstream literary fact? Does it really matter?) Scott Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jerry Enos" Subject: [AML] RE: Great Authors Date: 20 Jul 2000 02:22:34 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01BFF1F1.5D63D7E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I think that applies to all forms = of art. There have been alot of posts about great writers and no one = has even mentioned the authors that I have enjoyed and gone to great = effort to get into my personal library. That doesn't make them bad just = my tastes are different then yours. I also must not be very well read = because many of the names given I have never heard of. Then again I = haven't heard of most of the stuff Andrew has put on his polls. What I look for in a book is something that I can get into. Something = that transports me from were I am sitting to a new place, a new time. = L. I. Wilder and L. M. Allcott can do that for me. So can S. Taylor and = G. C. Warner. But my favorite create a new world for me to go to. The = best here are C. S. Lewis and J. R. R. Tolkien. T. Brooks is also quite = good. As far as to what the critics might say, I have no idea. But does it = really matter? Yes, Shakespeare, Milton, Homer, and Faulkner are = exceptional writers for the style that they chose and the time in which = they wrote but that doesn't mean that our more contempory writers are = terrible at it. Any way that is my opinion on the subject, unlearned and unread as I am. Konnie Enos ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01BFF1F1.5D63D7E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Beauty is in the eye of the = beholder.  I think=20 that applies to all forms of art.  There have been alot of posts = about=20 great writers and no one has even mentioned the authors that I have = enjoyed and=20 gone to great effort to get into my personal library.  That doesn't = make=20 them bad just my tastes are different then yours.  I also must not = be very=20 well read because many of the names given I have never heard of.  = Then=20 again I haven't heard of most of the stuff Andrew has put on his=20 polls.
 
What I look for in a book is something = that I can=20 get into.  Something that transports me from were I am sitting to a = new=20 place, a new time.  L. I. Wilder and L. M. Allcott can do that for=20 me.  So can S. Taylor and G. C. Warner.  But my favorite = create a new=20 world for me to go to.  The best here are C. S. Lewis and J. R. R.=20 Tolkien.  T. Brooks is also quite good.
 
As far as to what the critics might = say, I have no=20 idea.  But does it really matter?  Yes,  Shakespeare, = Milton,=20 Homer, and Faulkner are exceptional writers for the style that they = chose and=20 the time in which they wrote but that doesn't mean that our more = contempory=20 writers are terrible at it.
 
Any way that is my opinion on the = subject,=20 unlearned and unread as I am.
 
Konnie Enos
------=_NextPart_000_0048_01BFF1F1.5D63D7E0-- - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Todd Robert Petersen" Subject: [AML] Re: Great Authors Date: 19 Jul 2000 17:29:21 -0500 Bob Hogge wrote: > Todd, > I thoroughly enjoyed reading your list. Quite a bit of fodder for a good > discussion! What about Holden Caulfield? Why thank you. Hyperbole and invective ar two of my best pedegogical tools. I am fond of saying that nothing is more boring than a room full of people who agree (except the Solemn Assembly and so forth) . Re: Holden Caulfield. As a teen (which is absoultely the wrong time for anyone to read Salinger--Jason, any resonses? I saw your CFP for Salinger stuff .) I hated CATCHER IN THE RYE because I wanted to beat up Caulfield for being such a whiner. I still find little value in self-abnecation and chest deflation through intellectual and emotional rebellion, but I think that Salinger is okay. That said, I'm not very fond of books that take place in or around New York. I've been that way for a long time. For lots of writers (not Whitman or Woody Allen), New York is a neutral backdrop, a kind of default. I did forget to mention the greatness of David Sedaris, Wallace Stegner, some of Andre Dubus when he's not making me choke on his sentimentality, Barry Hannah when he's not drunk (and according to my friend, Doug, Hannah is almost always drunk). Silko, Erdrich, and Alexie also get me going, but not Louis Owens or Tony Hillerman. Hillerman ought to be tied to an anthill. Some people were arguing about Faulkner. I think that we should not be allowed to trash on anyone who gets either a Nobel Prize or a MacArthur grant. Some people also mentioned Stoppard. Shoot, I should have thought of him. I think that ARCADIA is one of the best plays nobody knows about. In that vein, David Ives is pretty good too. I really like his, ITS ALL IN THE TIMING. Much more fun than Saturday Night Live. Plus I hate Tolstoy and Richardson, those books are too big. I also forgot to mention Isaiah. Todd Robert Petersen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: eedh Subject: [AML] Re: List Discourse Date: 20 Jul 2000 08:36:06 -0700 Rats. "Sparring" is not the word I wanted. (I don't imagine you punching each other in the face.) It was "fencing" that I was after. What a difference a word makes. -Beth Hatch - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: Re: [AML] The Onion Skewers Mormons Date: 20 Jul 2000 09:55:55 -0700 >At 14:27 19-07-00 -0700, you wrote: >>One of my favorite web sites, The Onion, today started running a >>satirical piece on Mormonism. >> >>It's at http://www.theonion.com/onion3624/mormon_loses_inhibitions.html. >> >>It's interesting to wonder where they got their material. Some of >>seems insiderish (use of Mormon >>names), but much of it seems outsiderish. >> >>I wonder if they got the idea from the recent news item about the >>Mormon kid who spiked cupcakes >>with sleeping pills . . . >> >>Chris Bigelow > > >I don't have any inside info about the author's identity, but I >would not be at all surprised if we found out that the author is on >this list, or at least someone who meets the major qualifications >(writing & religion) for membership. Very funny article, and you're right, it sounds almost like an "inside job." The thing is, The Onion is very strict about what it prints. It doesn't accept outside submissions at all, which means if it was written by a Mormon, it was written by a Mormon ON THEIR STAFF. To me, this seems unlikely, judging from the less-than-reverent tone the publication's writing often takes. Writing satire that has its facts straight is one of the Onion's strong suits. The very same issue has an article about a man trying to dress his dog up in a Boba Fett costume (from "Star Wars"), and it goes into alarming detail. Granted, heavy-duty "Star Wars" fans are easy to come by, but it also goes to show that when they want to make fun of something, they're not afraid to do a bit of research. They had one a few weeks ago about the "Quilting Club" (not unlike "Fight Club"), that had more details about quilting than I'd ever care to read. And having an active quilter on their staff seems just as unlikely to me as having an active Mormon (although it's possible the quilter and the Mormon could be the same person. We'll see if they start having articles about Jell-O salad recipes or how to shop for a minivan). Eric D. Snider -- *************************************************** Eric D. Snider www.ericdsnider.com "Filling all your Eric D. Snider needs since 1974." - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: debbro@voyager.net Subject: Re: [AML] The Onion Skewers Mormons Date: 20 Jul 2000 12:08:18 -0400 Just my two cents, I don't think any member, even one trying to throw off people who might know them, would refer to Seminary as 'temple'. Clever piece though. Debbie Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ViKimball@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Re: List Discourse Date: 20 Jul 2000 12:14:23 EDT In a message dated 7/20/00 8:47:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time, eedh@emstar2.net writes: << Rats. "Sparring" is not the word I wanted. (I don't imagine you punching each other in the face.) It was "fencing" that I was after. What a difference a word makes. -Beth Hatch >> Mark Twain said: "The difference between the right word and the wrong word is the difference between lightning and the lightning bug." Might be off a word or two, I didn't take time to look it up. Violet Kimball - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jason Steed" Subject: Re: [AML] Genre Date: 20 Jul 2000 10:33:03 PDT >Despitem displaying a slight lack of understanding about Science Fiction >(It's >much more than giving a human three arms, four legs and green skin) that >argument could almost be taken to prove Marion "Doc" Smith's half-serious >contention that EVERY form of literature is a sub-set of Science >Fiction/Fantasy >(or Speculative Fiction as some academics and SF authors now call it). I don't think I'm displaying a lack of understanding--because I don't suggest that a creature with 3 arms and one eye is all there is to SF (as you seem to infer). If that was what I was suggesting, then you would have to also accuse me of suggesting that "literary" or "mainstream" fiction was likewise one-dimensional--which of course I am also NOT doing. As for all genres being subsets of SF, that's sort of impossible, isn't it? I'm no SF expert, but the earliest SF work I can think of is _Frankenstein_. If you want to broaden the genre to include fantasy, then perhaps you could make an argument for Homer, et al, as being fantasy writers, because they wrote about mythical beings. But I have a problem with this, because fantasy writers (I believe) would admit that the creatures in their works are not part of the real world; but the Greeks _believed_ in their gods and myths. If you say Homer is fantasy, then you have to say a Mormon writer who writes "realistic" fiction with men who hold the priesthood, and a God who intervenes or at least is present in the story, is a fantasy writer. Do you want to say that? Furthermore, I happen to like the term "speculative fiction", because I think it allows for the incorporation of works that are not technically _science_ fiction, or fantasy. But it's a term that can lose its meaning if you start to say that all fiction is speculative. There's no need to modify the noun "fiction" with the adjective "speculative" if the adjective applies in all cases (i.e. we don't say "liquid water"). Jason ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jason Steed" Subject: [AML] Re: Good Writing Date: 20 Jul 2000 10:47:36 PDT >Jason wrote: > > >If these things are true, how can anyone claim that > >Plato is always mentioned only to be refuted or disposed of? I >think >Eric Samuelsen dismisses a major figure in intellectual >history too >readily. Eric responded: >I do not dismiss Plato as an important intellectual figure or as an >important philosopher. I do think that his ideas about drama (and by >extension literature), which make up large parts of three of the ten books >of The Republic, are dangerous, unworkable and foolish. Even Homer nodded. > The Cave is a brilliant analogy, and many of his other ideas are >important and valuable. I hope I've made that clear. Jason responds: I agree that Plato's discussions of art in The Republic are problematic. But what about his treatment of it in Ion? I think we have to remember context here. When Plato wrote The Republic, he was conceiving of an _ideal_ state. And because, at least according to Plato, the arts cannot provide actual knowledge but merely conjecture, they were posited as inferior (remember, though, that he didn't want to banish the arts altogether--just to limit them, so they would not interfere with an _ideal_ state). We all have to admit that art can be a controversial thing--and controversy would not be desirable in Plato's ideal state; thus, art is not desirable. But in the Ion, Plato addresses art in the world _as is_--not in his _ideal_ state. And in the Ion, it seems to me that he basically says that, while much art is crummy and worthless, it indeed has the potential to be divine in origin. Jason ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jason Steed" Subject: [AML] Re: Great Authors Date: 20 Jul 2000 11:10:34 PDT >Re: Holden Caulfield. As a teen (which is absoultely the wrong time for >anyone to read Salinger--Jason, any resonses? I saw your CFP for Salinger >stuff .) I hated CATCHER IN THE RYE because I wanted to beat up >Caulfield for being such a whiner. I still find little value in >self-abnecation and chest deflation through intellectual and emotional >rebellion, but I think that Salinger is okay. I love Salinger--think he's a fantastic writer (especially his dialogue, which is perfect IMO). But I do think teens love him (if they love him) for the wrong reasons (e.g. Holden's rebeliousness, his use of 4-letter words, etc.). I love him for his pathos, for his admiration and elevation of children, and simply for his ability to really _write_. For those of you who haven't read his novella "Fanny," or the stories from his collection _Nine Stories_, I highly recommend them. [And, yes, I'm trying to put together a collection of essays on _Catcher_, commemorating its 50th anniversary. Anyone on this list interested in contributing? You can write me for more info...] Jason ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: Re: [AML] Genre Date: 20 Jul 2000 12:59:26 -0600 On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 Scott Parkin writes: > Thus, Jonathan nails it when he says that different readers decode > stories differently. Most genre fiction fails miserably when decoded > by a reader seeking a hidden problem that isn't hidden. Most > mainstream fiction seems to stop just as the problem is finally > stated for a reader decoding for solutions to the problem. But what about those of us who like both? Are we bipolar? scott bronson [MOD: Some of us find such a label too limiting. Tripolar, quadripolar, millipolar...more poles than you can shake a--well, pole--at...] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] AML Dinner Tonight Date: 20 Jul 2000 13:52:57 -0700 Just a reminder about the informal AML dinner tonight at 6:00 at Thai Chili Garden, 3rd South and 3rd East in Provo. We've had 10+ people confirm. The place is small but shouldn't be too busy at this time. If they seem to be overwhelmed, we can sit at multiple tables instead of insisting on all our tables touching. We'll just play it by ear. Feel free to come even if you didn't confirm. See ya tonight! Chris Bigelow * * * * * * Read my novella about Mormon missionaries at http://www1.mightywords.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=EB00016373. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Annette Lyon" Subject: [AML] Re: Good Writing Date: 20 Jul 2000 16:39:28 -0600 Eric Samuelson wrote: That is to say, if I write about an act of violence, I'm pro-violence. = Not that the following has much to do with the rest of Eric's post, but I totally agree that the above idea is ridiculous--and dangerous. When _Titanic_ came out, with all the accompanying hullabaloo, I talked with a friend who had seen it (I hadn't at that point.) Her biggest complaint was that the villain is violent--he slaps Rose at one point. I tried to clarify that it was the VILLAIN doing this, right? That the story didn't justify the action, and tried to show that is guy is evil, right? She agreed, but still contended that she didn't agree with a man slapping a woman. I had to leave the conversation shaking my head. Regardless of how you feel about _Titanic_, I think the point stands that art must show at least a degree of evil. On a very basic level, how can John Wayne be heroic if there isn't a cowboy dressed in black on the other end of the dusty street? Or, for that matter, how can the Stripling Warriors be victorious if there aren't any invading Lamanites to fight? I feel strongly about this because the idea of banishing ALL literature and art that has anything remotely "bad" in it goes back to the point made earlier, that doing so would mean banishing ALL art, all literature--a terrifying thought. Annette Lyon ________________________________________________________ 1stUp.com - Free the Web Get your free Internet access at http://www.1stUp.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Perry Subject: Re: [AML] The Onion Skewers Mormons Date: 20 Jul 2000 20:50:17 -0600 > From: "Eric D. Snider" > Subject: Re: [AML] The Onion Skewers Mormons > > Very funny article, and you're right, it sounds almost like an > "inside job." The thing is, The Onion is very strict about what it > prints. It doesn't accept outside submissions at all, which means if > it was written by a Mormon, it was written by a Mormon ON THEIR > STAFF. To me, this seems unlikely, judging from the > less-than-reverent tone the publication's writing often takes. > > Writing satire that has its facts straight is one of the Onion's > strong suits. It was very funny, but the references to "prayerbooks" and "going to the temple (high school age) for religious instruction during the school day," etc, seems like it's written by someone who had too tight a deadline to check the facts. I liked the accompanying pictures--adding verisimilitude left and right. Steve - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: owner-aml-list@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: [AML] The Onion Skewers Mormons Date: 21 Jul 2000 01:19:17 -0700 ,82-83 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 Sender: owner-aml-list@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: aml-list On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 14:27:15 Christopher Bigelow writes: > I wonder if they got the idea from the recent news item about the=20 > Mormon kid who spiked cupcakes > with sleeping pills . . . >=20 There is a Mormon literature connection to this story, as the unpublished news story below shows. I'm not sure why my editor didn't run it. Maybe he doesn't like stories where his reporter is a (very minor) player, or he didn't like me quoting from the Toledo Blade, or PG is not my beat. I left out the part about Sr. Lian and her companion stopping by a member's house who called their parents, lest they hear of it first on national news. "Marie," Donna said, "Why did Sarah call Marie? I'm more likely to hear it on the news than Marie is [in Warshington]. And Marie didn't even ask any questions." A bit of sibling rivalry. I don't know the final disposition of the case. I never called Judge Woessner to see what happened at the arraignment. I cleande up Sarah's speling, which is atroshus. _______________ An LDS missionary in Ohio serving from the Pleasant Grove 12th ward was among 17 who got sick recently after eating cupcakes laced with a mild sedative. Sr. Sarah Lian, who lived in Pleasant Grove for two years before her mission, sent two pages of her journal detailing the incident in a June 25th letter to her aunt and uncle, Donna and Harlow Clark of Pleasant Grove. The missionaries were at a zone conference in Perrysburg Ohio, with lunch provided by the Findlay ward relief society. She said she found a pill on the bottom of a chocolate cupcake but "thought it was baking soda or something."=20 Soon after eating the cupcakes missionaries started "complaining of nausea and lightheadedness," according to a June 23 article in the Toledo Blade, which says rescue crews from 3 towns took the missionaries to hospitals. Lian called it "My first Ambulance Ride and I hope that never happens again." She said her symptoms were mild, "I slept for about 1=BD hrs and woke up with a headache and a little diarrhea but I am just fine." According to Lian President and Sister Hadley, the mission president and his wife, were among those who ate the cupcakes. She said she and her companion, who did not have a cupcake, stopped at a church member's home in Bowling Green on their way home. The member called their parents, worried they might otherwise hear about it on the news. Lian is from southwest Washington. She said that the sleeping pills were a fifteen year old boy's prescription medication. He had had a fight with his sister and put them in the cupcakes hoping she would get blamed. According to the Blade article he put the pills in after the cupcakes were made, and was at the church when they were served. The Blade article identifies the sedative as 10 milligrams of Ambien. The boy told police he put either a half or whole pill in each cupcake. A pharmacist at Smith's Rexall in Pleasant Grove says Ambien is "very safe, taken with prudence." The standard dose is 5-10 milligrams at night. He said Ambien is not designed to be taken in daytime as it interferes with activities like driving or operating heavy machinery, and is not suggested for long term use. "If you have a sleeping problem you have to treat the problem, not just medicate it." Charges were filed in Wood County Juvenile Court, where the boy is scheduled to be arraigned on July 17th. Dave Woessner, the judge in the case, told NewUtah! that the charge is "Corrupting another with drugs," and is a 2nd degree felony. It carries "a potential maximum penalty" of commitment to Ohio Department of Youth Services--which runs a juvenile penitentiary system--up to age 21. Woessner said there are a variety of lesser penalties "if he is adjudicated delinquent." He could be placed on probation, or be sentenced to community service. He could also be adjudicated as non-delinquent. The boy's name has not been released. Lian said she and her companion were out tracting the day after the conference and "were asked about the mishap." She said she agreed with what Steven Ballard of Ogden told the Blade. "We will forgive and turn the other cheek," she said. Harlow S. Clark ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Genre Date: 21 Jul 2000 02:39:36 -0600 Scott Parkin wrote: > I think mainstream literary fiction often works to identify a problem > and state that problem powerfully. Climax comes when the character > finally understands the problem (with solution implied, or only > minimally illustrated). > > I think sf often takes the problem as a given, and attempts to > discover possible solutions to it. The problem is stated directly > within the fantastic premise, and climax comes when the character > either solves the problem, or fails utterly. > This is why Levi Peterson has had limited success. Pragmatic Mormons > want answers, not questions. Levi often focuses on clearly stating > the question, with the belief that answer is implies by true > understanding of problem. My reaction to your description of mainstream literature was, "No wonder I don't like mainstrem literature. Quick, hand me a science fiction book." Then you used _Backslider_ as an example of mainstream literature, and I enjoyed reading it. I didn't feel like the book was only starting when it was finishing. I felt the satisfaction of a problem resolved. It just wasn't a "tied up in a neat ribbon" resolution. The reader understood the problem early on in the book, that Frank didn't get life or the Gospel, so he was making all his choices based on faulty information and having everything turn out bad. The solution was when he accepted the empirical data of his real life experiences--assisted in seeing this by "Cowboy Jesus"--to determine what created happiness, and forsake the warped philosophy he had been struggling futilely to implement. The book satisfied my "tell me the problem, find me a solution" approach to reading. Or maybe I'm just literary enough that I don't mind a solution that isn't cut and dried. One that points the way to a solution and shows the protagonist taking a step or two in that direction is solution enough. I can fill in the rest. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Johnson Subject: Re: [AML] List Discourse Date: 21 Jul 2000 09:14:32 -0400 . Richard Johnson is always respectful of other >points of view, A lot of that comes, I think, from the myriad posts that came floating back to me in the early days of the list with comments from Ben saying: (forgive the loose paraphrasing) "Are you sure you want to state that in public?" or " There is some useful information here but there aint no way this is getting on the list till you remove the dirty words", or "Do you really want to inform the list that your mouth is size 11 1/2 D?" Thank you Ben for your encouragement of cultured dialogue. Richard B. Johnson Husband, Father, Grandfather, Puppeteer, Playwright, Writer, Director, Actor, Thingmaker, Mormon, Person, Fool I sometimes think that the last persona is the most important http://www2.gasou.edu/commarts/puppet/ Georgia Southern University Puppet Theatre - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Deborah Wager Subject: Re: [AML] List Discourse Date: 21 Jul 2000 08:32:26 -0600 Anyone who is interested in this subject should read Deborah Tannen's books. She is a respected linguist who has studied the cultural differences in language usage, from the apologetic/assertive things we've been talking about here to the ways people overlap their speech in conversation to the way conversations are structured. She has mostly studied geographical differences (i.e., the way Greeks talk is very different from the way the British express themselves), but has also found and written about many differences that are gender based within a culture. One of the things she is careful to say is that not all men or all women exhibit these characteristics but that this communication style is often seen in men or women. It is obvious that there are deferential men and assertive women. However, they fall outside the norm. She also discusses the ways that some of these characteristics, such as the ritual apologies of women, serve purposes of facilitating communication within a subculture but tend to cause miscommunication across subcultures (as in mixed-gender business communications). I don't know very much about all this, but reading and talking about it lights a fire in me. If there were a graduate program in sociolinguistics anywhere in the state of Utah I'd be in school right now instead of reading this lovely list. Debbie Wager Sharlee Glenn wrote: - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "R.W. Rasband" Subject: [AML] DU PRE, _The Prodigal Father_ (Review) Date: 20 Jul 2000 18:02:24 -0700 (PDT) THE PRODIGAL FATHER: A TRUE STORY OF TRAGEDY, SURVIVAL, AND RECONCILIATION IN AN AMERICAN FAMILY by Jon Du Pre; Hay House, Carlsbad, CA, 2000; 287 pages; $13.95 Jon Du Pre is a reporter for Fox News Channel. He used to work at KTVX, the ABC affiliate in Salt Lake.=20 This is his powerful, wrenching autobiography. It also tells the story of his father: an FBI agent, a assistant to U.S. Senator Strom Thurmond, and a civil rights attorney who gradually self-destructed through alcohol, drugs and other misbehavior, abandoned Du Pre's family and became a homeless wanderer. This is *not* just another Oprah-book. It is unsentimental: every insight and emotion is dearly earned. The tale of his family's downward spiral is excruciating to read (and must have been hell to live through of course.) They sink into poverty, his brothers become emotionally damaged, and his mother makes two more catastrophic marriages. His father makes occasional reappearances in the teen-aged Du Pre's life in order to manipulate and leech off him.=20 Du Pre finally joins the LDS church, goes on a mission to Italy, and attends BYU, where he marries Miss Utah and becomes a broadcast journalist (studying under the legendary Lynn Packer). His outward success masks a disturbed, pain-wracked heart however, and Du Pre finally makes the decision to investigate his father's past and ultimately to find and confront him. One of the most interesting things about this memoir is that Du Pre doesn't come off as very likable in the middle chapters; he presents himself as self-absorbed and harsh with the people around him. His final confrontation with his father is heartbreaking and unforgettable. Some grace and forgiveness occur, but there's nothing cheap or New Age-y about it. The moral of the story: in order to become a complete human being, you have to confront your fears and face down your demons. This book is very readable, but not exactly artful.=20 Du Pre spills his guts and the result is often more forceful than smooth. His Mormonness plays a crucial part in the story. As a young convert, his LDS friends allow him to see a more hopeful world beyond the horizon of his despair. BYU makes him into a professional. And although he doesn't parade it, his values inform the choices he makes. For example, when Du Pre is 18 or so, his father comes to live with him and tries to "get him drunk and get him laid." Du Pre resists these temptations. There is a palpable feeling of evil that hangs over these pages, as the elder Du Pre attempts to drag Jon down to his level.=20 No doubt more worldly readers will just conclude that the younger Du Pre is a prude, but LDS readers will understand. This book has reminded some reader's of "Angela's Ashes." My own comparisons would be with Mikal Gilmore's masterful "Shot in the Heart", William Kennedy's great novel "Ironweed", and Geoffrey Wolff's memoir "The Duke of Deception." It's not as well written as those books, but it has a scalding candor and honesty that produces an impact similar to those classics. =20 R.W. Rasband Heber City, UT rrasband@yahoo.com =20 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail =96 Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Todd Robert Petersen" Subject: Re: [AML] Genre Date: 21 Jul 2000 11:03:22 -0500 D. Michael Martindale wrote: > My reaction to your description of mainstream literature was, "No wonder > I don't like mainstrem literature. Quick, hand me a science fiction > book." I now understand the issue at hand. D. Michael Martindale just likes Science Fiction. But his commentary always reaches toward asserting its inherent virtues, not in merely stating a preference. The same happens with myself and Jason Sneed and others who like literary fiction. Digression: People have been using the term main stream literature in too broad a stroke. Mainstream = Oprah books. Literary fiction is more what I and others have been meaning primarily. Return: I've been reading a lot about the social and cultural ways that taste is constructed, and am coming to see that the problem of taste is not that some like certain things and not others. The problem comes when people (like Kant) try to say that what they like is what ought to be liked because it is in its essential nature to stand above. There is a problem with liking Science Fiction in certain circles (or romances or westerns or thrillers) and with announcing their inherent value over something like Toni Morrison or Derek Walcott or Jose Saramago, namely that one sounds an awful lot like one is saying those of you who like Tiramisu or madelines are crazy. Quick, hand me a twinkie. Not that this is what anyone is finally saying, but that's what is heard sometimes . . . I think. On a different but similar note: The reason I stopped reading Science Fiction and fantasy is that it almost always relied on allegory of one kind or another in order to make its thematic points, which is to say that the alternative worlds and milieux only served the work as structures from which to comment on culture of the actual world we all live in. When I came to that conclusion, I thought to myself, "Why not cut out the middle man and comment on culture directly?" To me it takes a little more courage to, for example, castigate racism by talking about racism in the world we live in than to make up some Sneetches or whatever and use them as puppets for the culture. But that's just me. ANIMAL FARM and CHICKEN RUN are two exceptions for me in that respect. In those instances, the allegorical shift provides some parable-like qualities that allow for clearer seeing. I'm thinking about this because I went to see the X-Men movie, a film I have been waiting to see since I was eleven years old. I thought, "Hmmm, this helped me think of the altern when I was pre-pubescent, but now I'd rather learn about the Holocaust and ethnic cleansing in its actual rather than imagined forms." Todd Robert Petersen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ed Snow Subject: Re: [AML] (Curiouser & Curiouser) Confessions of a Former FARMS= Date: 21 Jul 2000 11:30:09 -0700 (PDT) Marylin wrote: The idea for this came from adding (x) Catullus (sp?), a Greek or Roman erotic poet, plus (y) Ixtlilxoxitlil (sp?), an early Aztec or Mayan historian who gathered Mesoamerican legends, equals (z) Catliltlilus, a Mayan erotic poet. Maybe that was obvious, but I thought an etymology might be helpful. Ed =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Among best sellers, Barnes & Noble ranks _Of Curious Workmanship: Musings on= Things Mormon_ in its top 100 (thousand, that is). Available now at 20% off= http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=3D5SLFMY1T= YD&mscssid=3DHJW5QQU1SUS12HE1001PQJ9XJ7F17G3C&srefer=3D&isbn=3D1560851368 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail =96 Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: Re: [AML] Genre Date: 21 Jul 2000 14:46:57 -0500 Todd states that science fiction versus mainstream literary fiction (I agree with his distinction between literary and popular, though I prefer to add "mainstream" since it avoids the implication that this is the only type of fiction that is literary) is really a matter of taste, and comments that the problem comes when advocates of one form of fiction argue that their personal taste equates to an inherent superiority of one genre over another. He goes on to state: >The reason I stopped reading Science >Fiction and fantasy is that it almost always relied on allegory of one kind >or another in order to make its thematic points, which is to say that the >alternative worlds and milieux only served the work as structures from which >to comment on culture of the actual world we all live in. > >When I came to that conclusion, I thought to myself, "Why not cut out the >middle man and comment on culture directly?" Even though Todd positions this as a matter of taste, I would argue that this way of describing science fiction and fantasy embeds a set of assumptions that would, indeed, place a higher inherent value on mainstream literary fiction than on science fiction, fantasy, and other non-mainstream forms. If the sole aim of literature is "to comment on culture of the actual world we all live in," then it follows that science and fantasy will inherently be one step further removed from the central stuff of literature, with the probable consequences Todd describes. (After rereading my completed post, I realize that it's also possible that Todd isn't saying this is the only valid purpose of literature, but only that it's the purpose most science fiction seems to be attempting to fill. Regardless, I think that such an interpretation misses what the best of science fiction and fantasy are about--and hence my argument that follows.) I won't get into a discussion of the pros and cons of allegory. Rather, I want to point out that in treating sf&f allegorically, Todd imposes on the genres an interpretation many, if not most, of their practitioners have rejected. Tolkien's irritable tirade against allegorical interpretations of his own work is well known. What is less widely recognized, I think, is that this dislike represents, at its most fundamental level, a different set of assumptions about what literature is and ought to be. In his essay "On Fairy-Stories," Tolkien bemoans the fact (as he sees it) that due to Shakespeare's powerful presence, literary criticism of all fictional forms in English has been unduly influenced in the direction of dramatic values. And drama, he argues, is an inherently anthropomorphic form: "Very little about trees as trees can be got into a play." He recounts then his disappointment at Shakespeare's copout (my word, not his) in how he fulfills the prophecy of Birnham Wood coming to Dunsinane by having soldiers carry boughs as camouflage. Clearly, in Tolkien's scene of the Huorns coming to Helm's Deep, he is replaying this incident in a way he finds more satisfying--just as his creation of the Ents is clearly (among other things) an expression of certain things he felt deeply about trees and the natural world that could not be expressed--or at least, not as well--through a "realistic" depiction of forests and landscapes. Tolkien's work is, to some degree at least, about "trees as trees," eccentric though that may seem to those who would limit literature to human subjects. I'm aware that what I've described here can be considered an allegorical approach (in a broad way; I'd prefer the term "symbolic" or "metaphoric," since allegory strictly speaking means something much narrower), since it uses an unreal/fantastic depiction of something that can be seen as a representation of something else in the real world. I think that such a view, however, leaves out several important considerations. For one thing, what it's representing is not a human other, but something from the natural world--not a part of "society" at all. Second, and perhaps more fundamentally, Ents are more than "merely" representations or symbols of trees, but entities within the story to which we respond for their own sake--at least, those of us for whom Tolkien's fiction works. Such a response, Todd seems to suggest, is outside the range of his sympathies: i.e., in order to find significance in fantasy, it's necessary first to translate back to its real-world referents. (Apologies again if I'm misstating your position, Todd.) But it's important to recognize that those of us who like science fiction and fantasy respond to it in a different way--one which, I again suggest, reflects a different idea of what "literature" is and ought to be. To apply this argument more explicitly to science fiction: Alexander Pope famously proclaims that "The proper study of mankind is Man." Science (and Mormonism) takes this dictate as too narrow, focusing human attention on understanding all the universe that comes within our view. Science fiction at its best partakes of some of the same spirit, looking at and exploring the imaginative possibilities of the universe around us not simply as a setting for human action, still less as an allegorical framework for "really" talking about humans, but as a fun playground worth exploring for its own sake. The seriousness with which fantasy and science fiction treat such things in themselves is, I think, one of the reasons why many advocates of mainstream literary fiction are unable to treat these genres seriously: serious literature, to them, *must* be about humans and human society. To the degree that fantasy and science fiction aren't, they aren't worthy of serious attention. Those of us who like science fiction for its own sake, on the other hand, would turn this around: a science fiction story that is *only* a framework for talking allegorically about contemporary human society isn't really a science fiction story at all, or at least it's a pretty poor one. (It's interesting, in this connection, that the two stories Todd singles out as positive "exceptions" for him--_Animal Farm_ and _Chicken Run_--are ones that I wouldn't qualify as fantasy or science fiction at all, but allegory, pure and simple, though well-done in both cases [pardon the pun]. To me, this suggests that what makes sf&f uninteresting for Todd isn't that these genres are allegorical, but that they aren't allegorical enough. Todd, any thoughts on this?) This, I think, is why so many of us who like science fiction and fantasy tend to go on the counterattack against literary mainstream fiction: because the arguments over literary quality are generally conducted on ground that is inherently slanted in favor of that type of fiction, that makes "our kind" of fiction inherently inferior except to the degree that it goes concealed in mainstream literary drag. What we really need is a different theory of literature that puts what we like on a more equal footing--or perhaps slants the advantage our way, eh? Because in the end, it's *not* simply a matter of taste. Certain genres are better suited to doing certain types of things--and so, depending on what you think the "purpose" of literature is, certain genres do have inherent advantages or disadvantages in creating good literature. To summarize: * For fantasy and science fiction readers, I would suggest that our primary mode of experiencing these genres are not allegorical. (Also not real--I'm not saying we can't tell the difference between the real world and a fictional one--but something perhaps best described in Tolkien's terms as secondary belief.) * Part of the power of science fiction and fantasy for us--and part of what makes them thoughtful, intellectually challenging genres--lies in the fact that they *aren't* just about contemporary humans and human society, but feature other topics and subjects as well, such as elements of the natural world and scientific speculations about the way it operates. * These positive values of science fiction and fantasy, for its admirers, are precisely among the qualities that lead others to consider it a less-significant literary form. * Arguing from the dominant mainstream literary views of what literature is and ought to be will always, inherently, place science fiction and fantasy at a disadvantage. One final note. To simplify the discussion, I've talked about this largely in either/or terms: either you accept the mainstream literary view of what literature is, or you reject it. In reality, of course, it's not nearly so straightforward. Personally, I prefer a framework that acknowledges many different purposes for literature, and allows you to use whatever perspective seems most appropriate--or provides the most entertainment--in interpreting any particular literary work. Imagine: using science fiction values to examine oh, say, Saul Bellow! What fun! I do think, though, that those of us who like and value science fiction and fantasy for their own sake, and not as simply a marvel-coated version of mainstream literature, need to beware of critical frameworks which--if extended to their logical conclusions--condemn the works we love to the status of perpetual second-class literary citizens. Jonathan Langford speaking for myself, not the List jlangfor@pressenter.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: Re: [AML] Good Writing Date: 21 Jul 2000 13:38:36 -0700 On Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:41Tony Markham writes: > Terry's child's Sunday School teacher said that all fiction writing was > inherently bad. One of the smartest, most in-tune people who ever > lived agreed with her. Plato, in The Republic, said basically that > the dramatic poet (and the fiction writer) ought to be banished > from a well-ordered society. It would be more accurate to say that Socrates, a character in Plato's novel _The Republic_, argues that poets who lie have no place in a just society. I keep remembering what David H. Yarn said in our History of Philosophy, part 1 class, that one way of reading _The Republic_ is as a warning of what a society would be like where all things are subservient to one thing, even if that one thing is justice. > And before we start quoting the prophets at him, we ought > to hear his rather compelling reasons: That word _compelling_ reminds me of a passage in Robert Nozick's forward to his _Philosophical Explanations_ (page 4) where he notes that the language of philosophy is the language of compulsion. >>>>> The terminology of philosophical art is coercive: arguments are _powerful_ and best when they are _knockdown_, arguments _force _you to a conclusion, if you believe the premisses you _have to_ or _must_ believe the conclusion, some arguments do not carry much _punch_, and so forth. A philosophical argument is an attempt to get someone to believe something, whether he wants to believe it or not. A successful philosophical argument, a strong argument, _forces_ someone to a belief. <<<<< That passage (the whole thing is longer), read and resisted at the beginning of grad school, and working on me for several years, has influenced the way I construct and present my ideas in writing (where I can create a more humane, sensitive persona than the person writing the words). I started writing a short reply, but it's grown, so I'll limit this post to Socrates' first compulsive reason, and post later on the other two. > 1) The rational and well-ordered personality who deals with the hard > blows of life with peace and equanimity is a sorry subject for drama > (fiction) and is seldom portrayed. The same can be said for history. When was the last time you read a history of a common ordinary family, not soldiers, generals, politicians, movers, shakers, history makers (hmm, that has a ring to it--Steve Perry should set it to music), just common ordinary people? I'm just finishing one right now, _I Cannot Tell a Life_ by Florence Child Brown. I hope sometime to read Laurel Thatcher Ulrich's _Goodwives_ and _A Midwife's Tale_. Then there's this book by Richard Bushman about a man with the unassuming name of Smith. Bushman says because of the interest this man inspired we know more about the Smith family than any other non-aristocratic family in America. I welcome history about common, ordinary people, just as I welcome fiction about ordinary people struggling or working to meet their life's challenges. (At the same time, I recognize that my Seattle stories, about a man's attempt to survive emotionally, with peace and equanimity, after his wife tries to destroy him psychologically, are structured after the hero journey. Then there's the group of stories about a boy who uses autism as a defense, "I prayed and the Lord told me the abuse was not my fault.") But just as I would not call the whole value of history as a genre into question because historians have traditionally not focused on everyday life, I would not call fiction or poetry into question simply because it often deals with extraordinary events or deranged kings who make their home home on the heath with cantaloupe in their teeth and rage at the wind. The better response is to write a good story about everyday people meeting their challenges by forgiving those who cause them pain. Like a story about a woman who runs away from her husband when he won't help their son out of some trouble, goes to the zoo, meets an angel who helps her reconcile with her husband. (Actually, I think Margaret Young could do that rather nicely, an example of what Jerry Johnston would call Mormon magical realism.) More to follow. Harlow S. Clark ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] The Onion Skewers Mormons Date: 21 Jul 2000 13:50:24 -0600 I actually don't think it sounds very 'insider.' It's very funny, but it = made us seem closer to Amish than to Mormons, really. (An insider = wouldn't have said the Book of Helaman was boring, for example. 2 Nephi, = sure.) Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Margaret Young Subject: Re: [AML] (Curiouser & Curiouser) Confessions of a Former FARMS=Filing Date: 21 Jul 2000 14:12:05 -0600 Okay, let's spell Ixtlilxochitl correctly. (I don't happen to have my Aztec/English dictionary handy, so I may not have it perfect either.) Pronounced Ish-tleel-oh-sho-cheet-el. Really fun to say it ten times fast. In Aztec, there are lots of "l's", and the "X" is pronounced "sh." Ixtlilxochitl was Aztec (Mayan is not nearly so fond of "l's", but favors a lot of "ch's.") Ixtlilxochitl was Aztec royalty who reported Aztec history to one of the more compassionate Spanish conquerors, a priest whose name is so comparatively uninteresting that I've forgotten it. Ed Snow wrote: > Marylin wrote: > > Catliltlilus> > > The idea for this came from adding (x) Catullus (sp?), > a Greek or Roman erotic poet, plus (y) Ixtlilxoxitlil > (sp?), an early Aztec or Mayan historian who gathered > Mesoamerican legends, equals (z) Catliltlilus, a Mayan > erotic poet. Maybe that was obvious, but I thought an > etymology might be helpful. > > Ed - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: [AML] Re: Good Writing Date: 21 Jul 2000 14:03:27 -0600 Jason wrote: >I agree that Plato's discussions of art in The Republic are >problematic. = But what about his treatment of it in Ion? (SNIP) >And in the Ion, it seems to me that he basically says that, while=20 >much art is crummy and worthless, it indeed has the potential to >be = divine. Even in the Ion he's awfully grudging. Poets don't know anything, he = says, and shouldn't be trusted to have any expertise on any subject at = all, except as they are inspired by the Gods. Under those circumstances, = poets have their heads in the clouds, working directly under divine = inspiration. It's become such a Romantic cliche, this idea of the inspired artist, = closer to The Ideal (or the Super Sensuous, or whatever) than the rest of = us, and thus a favored being, a kind of psuedo-prophet. =20 I love Schiller's argument in his "On the Naive and the Sentimental." He = said that Goethe was, in fact, far more inspired than he was, far closer = to the Super Sensuous than he would ever be. Schiller had to sweat blood = to write anything, tormenting himself with questions of expression and = syntax that Goethe, in his naive brilliance, just sailed right over. But, = concluded Schiller, the 'sentimental' artist (sentimental in this context = meant an artist like Schiller, who has to work his fanny off to achieve = anything like the right kind of expression) would ultimately soar higher. = Neither artist would ever actually reach the Super Sensuous. But the = sentimental artist would eventually come closer. A great refutation of = Plato's argument in the Ion. I don't buy the whole romantic argument, personally. Writing is hard = work. Research is very hard work. Writers DO have to know something; = inspiration only comes after you've put in the grunt work. At least that's = my experience. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tony Markham Subject: Re: [AML] Great Authors Date: 21 Jul 2000 15:40:48 -0400 Sharlee Glenn wrote: > Whoa! That's quite a jump! So the four names you came up with while mowing > the lawn happened to be men. That hardly means that only men have produced > great literature (which is what the posing of those questions suggests). > > While washing the dishes this morning, I came up with four names and > wondered what these writers had in common to elevate them to greatness: > > George Eliot > Virginia Woolf > Flannery O'Connor > Toni Morrison > > :-) Though Sharlee closed with a grin, I have given serious lawn-mowing thought to her list. I simply don't know much about George Eliot because the last time a teacher took her seriously enough to teach, it was after recess and we had to lay our heads on our desks while she read out loud. Sad but true. Don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger. But the other three are a different story. All of them were brilliant and gifted, yet alienated and marginalized women. Virginia Woolf was a brilliant, gifted woman in a society that basically scorned her for those very reasons. One day she simply walked into the sea. My most vivid image of Woolf is a photo with those large, sad, dark eyes, one arm and hand languidly supporting her chin, and a caption: "Ennui envelops me." Flannery O'Connor, a brilliant, gifted woman. One of only a handful of Irish-Catholics in her rural Georgia town (Milledgeville). College-educated, well-published and surrounded basically by crackers. She knew she would die young, suffered from Lupus (fatal then) and the medicine would make her face and hands swell up, which was a motif that appeared often in her work, that is, a brilliant, gifted, hulking girl totally at odds with her society. Toni Morrison, a youngest child, all older brothers. She was "The Pretty One." And straight-A's. Her father adored her and doted on her and rained favoritism and one day her brothers were goofing with a BB gun and shot her in the eye. Big, blue cataract--blind. Grades plummeted, self-image plummeted, alienated and marginalized. The Bluest Eye. So if alienation and marginalization serve the same role in elevating women writers to greatness that being a blind, drunk, sorcerer served for Milton, Faulkner, and Yeats, then I'd say a few things here about women (not just the writers) and the Mormon Church if this were the kind of list that allowed such things to be said, which it isn't. So I won't. My .02 is that both Woolf and O'Connor died too young to fully realize their greatness. Same with John Keats and Poe. O'Connor left an all-too-small legacy of short stories and only the one novel, "Wise Blood." I've loved her work since the first time I read it and time has only made the pain of her early death more acute. Ach! What we lost! Virginia Woolf, I just have this distaste for suicides. I don't like letting them into my brain for fear I may get exposed to something that sticks. This includes Hemingway, Robert E. Howard, and that Japanese guy who fell on his sword, Mushami (?). But not Socrates. Woolf may be a great writer, people say so, but I can't take the context. Call me Sui-ophobic. Toni Morrison, great initials! But it's too soon to tell about her writing. A person has to wait a bit for any lasting greatness to become apparent. It's great that she won the Nobel Prize. They don't just give those things away. Wait, yes they do. She could be, potentially, half as good as Milton. T.M. PS. This is a pretty great list. We've got Mormons who listen to Tom Waits and who start the day with an Oooom. Next thing, someone will confess to chanting Nam Myoho Renge Kyo to the tune of "O My Father." And that was a great post Todd Robert made re: this thread. A Gem! - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ViKimball@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] The Onion Skewers Mormons Date: 21 Jul 2000 17:31:35 EDT In a message dated 7/21/00 2:03:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ersamuel@byugate.byu.edu writes: << (An insider wouldn't have said the Book of Helaman was boring, for example. 2 Nephi, sure.) Eric Samuelsen >> Oh, Eric: Speak for yourself. I think much like Mark Twain that the entire Book of Mormon is boring. Violet Kimball - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: Re: [AML] Good Writing Date: 21 Jul 2000 15:26:09 -0700 This is the second part of my reply to Tony Markham's June 30 posting on Plato, whose second point Tony states this way: > 2) The poet (fiction writer) seeks to represent life as is and merely > creates a copy of what is real, and the copy is inferior to reality in > every respect. I have not read all of _The Republic_. I may do that this summer, because I need to see how Plato constructs the realm of ideas. The example I've always heard is this: The wooden device I sit on as write these words, which has a seat, a curving back and four legs, the arrangement of tubes, spoked wheels and naugahyde my mother-in-law rides in if we have to take her to the doctor, the upholstered device she spends most of her days in, which can recline or rais up so she's almost standing, and the device I sit in at work which is mounted on a swivel riding on four small wheels, are all called chairs. What is it that allows us to recognize them all as chairs? There must be some realm where the idea of chair-ness exists. We have some kind of pre-existent memory of that realm, and we recognize many divers things as chairs because they are all striving to reach the ideal of chair-ness. I don't know if Plato actually uses that example, but it's the one I've always heard. But you don't have to resort to an abstract realm of ideas that encompasses all possible chairs to explain why many, many different kinds of things are challed chairs. All you have to do is look at the way we talk about chairs, think about the words we use. I'll bet no one reading this looked at my description, "a seat, a curving back and four legs," and said, 'Hey, he's comparing a chair to the human body,' but that is what defines a chair as a chair--the way it imitates the function of a human body. If it doesn't have legs, a seat and back, and often arms, we call it something besides a chair. Two important points need to be made. First, the realm of ideas is not simply a theoretical construct, it's also a values construct, as indicated by our word, _ideal_. The realm of ideas is what we should strive for. Every thing and every body in this concrete realm of earth is striving for the perfection of the realm of ideas. But, and this is the second point, in order to encompass all variety, the realm of ideas has to be abstract. No concrete thing can encompass all variations. Imagine my mother-in-law's wheelchair, which folds into the middle for easy carrying in a car, having a built-in recliner, and a swivel for ease moving around a business office. But, because it can not encompass all variations, a concrete object, whether it is the words on paper or spoken words that vibrate in other people's ears, or any other concrete object, is by definition inferior to the realm of ideas. Which is why the realm of ideas is of no value if you're trying to design a chair. Or a story. Chairs are not trying to imitate an ideal, they are trying to aid the body in functioning a particular way in a particular environment. Stories are not trying to copy an abstract ideal, but to picture and explore a concrete society in a given time and space, whether that time is far far away on Judea's non-plains, or hanging onto a horse's main on the soggy plains of Spain, or trying by main force to take control of Middle-Earth. If you judge a story (or a chair) by how well it reflects an abstract ideal, it will always be a pale copy, and dangerous, because people might mistake it for the abstract reality. Indeed, that's one of the objections anti-Mormon writers raise, and I ran into it on my mission: that Mormons are too weak-minded to think about God in all his abstract glory, so we have to create a God who has a body just like ours. But note that pronoun _his_. Even people who insist that God is abstract will personify that abstraction, that is, will give it a pronoun that implies a certain bone structure and organs that define a male body. Defining the ideal in abstract terms sets up a situation where art and literature are dangerous. I suspect that defining art as dangerous is unavoidable if the realm of values is an abstract realm. Literature always deals in values--even pastoral, lyric poetry deals with values, as Bergman showed in _Shame_, where the pastoral opening shows us what values are going to be destroyed by the war. The problem is that the values I hold may not completely match the values an artist holds. But what if I change my assumptions about what artists are trying to do? If I assume artists are trying to show me the ideal society, then I have to worry about the danger that their portrait may not match my values, and that I, or someone under my stewardship may mistake their values for my own. But what if I assume the artist is trying to do something else? This question of what an artist wants to give through art, and what we receive--and in what spirit we receive--is the subject of Michael J. Rosen's memoir (illustrations by Aminah Brenda Lynn Robinson--see my December 8, 1999 review)_Elijah's Angel: A Story for Chanukah and Christmas_. Rosen tells about a barber, woodcarver, and lay minister named Elijah Pierce who had a shop just down the street from him growing up. He tells it as if he were 10 years old looking back a year to when Christmas Eve shared nights with the first night of Chanukah. He tells how he would like to "buy one of Elijah's animals," but that though his parents have a piece Elijah did in their kitchen they wouldn't want to buy pieces like "God and the Angels" or "The Infant Jesus," which to Jews would be graven images. Elijah complicates matters by giving 9-year-old Michael a guardian angel. "You know, I send prayers to all the wood I've ever carved; now you'll always be in my prayers." Michael is afraid his parents will see the angel as a graven image, and hides it from them for a bit. When he finally shows them the angel they tell him, "What this angel means to you doesn't have to be what it means to Elijah," that he can accept the angel as a sign of Elijah's love and care, his friendship, without adopting the religious connotations of the angel. Michael's parents gave him a profound way to interpret art. Its meaning to you doesn't have to be the same as its meaning to the artist. It's still a gift. I wonder how our esthetics would change if we looked at art as proferred gift rather than as potential gift (German for _poison_). Harlow S. Clark ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ViKimball@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] (Curiouser & Curiouser) Confessions of a Former FARMS=Filing Clerk Date: 21 Jul 2000 17:33:30 EDT In a message dated 7/21/00 2:04:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time, margaret_young@byu.edu writes: << > The idea for this came from adding (x) Catullus (sp?), > a Greek or Roman erotic poet, plus (y) Ixtlilxoxitlil > (sp?), an early Aztec or Mayan historian who gathered > Mesoamerican legends, equals (z) Catliltlilus, a Mayan > erotic poet. Maybe that was obvious, but I thought an > etymology might be helpful. > >> Everyday words in my household. :<) VKimball - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eileen Subject: [AML] Re: Good Writing Date: 21 Jul 2000 16:00:50 -0600 >I don't buy the whole romantic argument, personally. Writing is hard work. >Research is very hard work. Writers DO have to know something; inspiration >only comes after you've put in the grunt work. At least that's my experience. >Eric Samuelsen Here! Here! I am in complete concord. Eileen eileens99@bigplanet.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard R Hopkins Subject: [AML] Re: Good Writing Date: 21 Jul 2000 19:32:10 -0600 > I don't buy the whole romantic argument, personally. Writing is > hard work. Research is very hard work. Writers DO have to know > something; inspiration only comes after you've put in the grunt > work. At least that's my experience. > > Eric Samuelsen In music I am always amazed at how seemingly inspired writers of religious music were, historically. Much more so than their contemporaries in theology. And yet when it comes to how hard it was to do this, you have the huge contrasts of Mozart, who seemed to know how every note should sound from the moment of creation, and Beethoven, who worked very hard to achieve his art. Now personally I prefer Beethoven, which frankly tells me something about inspiration and the arts. :-) Richard Hopkins - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gae Lyn Henderson" Subject: RE: [AML] Genre Date: 21 Jul 2000 21:13:56 -0600 Jonathan Langford said: > Tolkien's > work is, to some degree at least, about "trees as trees," eccentric though > that may seem to those who would limit literature to human subjects. Jonathan makes an intriguing distinction here between allegory about human beings and other topics for imagination and consideration. It seems to apply nicely to a story I read today, Scott Parkin's "Of Cats and Disease and Nature," published in the Winter issue of _Irreantum_. [Incidentally I was inspired to read the story after listening to Scott and Thom Duncan discuss science fiction last night at Thai Chili Gardens. Thanks Chris for putting that dinner together.] Scott's story made me think about "catness," something I'm sure I wouldn't have done otherwise: What does a cat perceive? What things does a cat know that I don't know? Why do human beings assume we are smarter and better? If every living thing has a spiritual creation and is invested in this life with the light of Christ, then what happens to our beloved pets--and all the unloved animals--after they die? The story provides some answers; it forces me to look at my world a new way; it brings up interesting questions about perception and human knowledge. It makes make think about philosophical theories like phenomenology. It makes me think about Mormon theological questions. It makes me want to pick up my cat Trinkles and love him. It is not "mainstream literary fiction," but it does some alterative things that I find very valuable. I read Heinlein as a little girl and teenager and the thing his science fiction did for me then was create all kinds of possibilities about the world/universe. When you are a Mormon girl learning your role as future mother and homemaker, it is quite liberating to read about a female space pilot or the like. So when Jonathan says, What we really need is a > different theory of literature that puts what we like on a more equal > footing--or perhaps slants the advantage our way, eh? Because in the end, > it's *not* simply a matter of taste. Certain genres are better suited to > doing certain types of things--and so, depending on what you think the > "purpose" of literature is, certain genres do have inherent advantages or > disadvantages in creating good literature. I agree! Some people find literary theory bogus and a waste of time. I don't. I think it has its own creative impetus and its own fascination. Not everyone likes it, just as not everyone likes science fiction. But there is room for many tastes. Let me ask a question since this is an area where I have no knowledge--who has done science fiction theory? I mean other than Orson Scott Card--I've read some of what he has said. An example about another genre that has been discussed on the list recently is the romance novel. When I read _Loving With a Vengeance: Mass-Produced Fantasies for Women_ by Tania Modleski, it helped me understand the romance genre and value it. But even more importantly, it helped me understand why women read romance--it made a comment on human society that was valuable. (In other words, theory can do the same thing that mainstream literature can do.) Gae Lyn Henderson > - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] BRADSHAW, _The Creative Mind_ Date: 21 Jul 2000 23:01:39 EDT Last Sunday's SL Trib article on LDS composer Merrill Bradshaw mentioned that he recently completed work on a book entitled, _The Creative Mind_. Is anyone familiar with this work? Larry Jackson ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gae Lyn Henderson" Subject: RE: [AML] Great Authors Date: 21 Jul 2000 21:32:09 -0600 Tony Markham said: > > So if alienation and marginalization serve the same role in > elevating women > writers to greatness that being a blind, drunk, sorcerer served > for Milton, > Faulkner, and Yeats, then I'd say a few things here about women > (not just the > writers) and the Mormon Church if this were the kind of list that > allowed such > things to be said, which it isn't. So I won't. Tony, please phrase it so it will work on the list, but don't just frustrate us with your unsaid provocations. > > PS. This is a pretty great list. We've got Mormons who listen > to Tom Waits and > who start the day with an Oooom. Next thing, someone will > confess to chanting > Nam Myoho Renge Kyo to the tune of "O My Father." Doesn't everyone? I'm not confessing--yet, but I'm pretty interested in chanting. Anyone want to start a thread on this? It fits into the literary notion of "marked," "special," "distinctive" language--investing such words with transformative power--? Gae Lyn Henderson - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] The Onion Skewers Mormons Date: 21 Jul 2000 23:01:39 EDT The Onion is very strict about what it prints. It doesn't accept outside submissions at all, ... _______________ I vote not an insider, but it easily could have been. Maybe the miscapitalizing of the name of the Church and the crossing of the street to the temple for religious classes was just part of the skewering. I've written satire and intentionally changed things to make the piece funnier, or at least to pull the chain a little more firmly. I loved the names, especially the math teacher. And if the author wasn't LDS, then I vote he or she was Jewish ("the covenant people of the Lord!" and "heir to the ancient covenant between God and Abraham.") Larry Jackson ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: [AML] Re: Good Writing Date: 21 Jul 2000 23:14:57 -0600 Eileen wrote: > > >I don't buy the whole romantic argument, personally. Writing is hard work. > >Research is very hard work. Writers DO have to know something; inspiration > >only comes after you've put in the grunt work. At least that's my > experience. > > >Eric Samuelsen > > Here! Here! I am in complete concord. The non-inspired always think that the inspired artist just sort of sits back and lets the words flow. This is the fallacy, not that there are no inspired artists. The reason the non-inspired think that is that the inspired artist makes it look so easy; he/she hides the hard work behind the scenes. -- Thom Duncan Read the further adventures of Moroni Smith, the LDS Indiana Jones! The long-awaited second episode in the Moroni Smith LDS adventure series, _Moroni Smith: In Search of the Gold Plates_ is now available as an e-book at the Zion's Fiction web page: http://www.zfiction.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eileen Stringer Subject: Re: [AML] The Onion Skewers Mormons Date: 21 Jul 2000 23:29:31 -0600 .> << (An insider wouldn't have said the Book of Helaman was boring, for > example. 2 Nephi, sure.) > > Eric Samuelsen >> > > Oh, Eric: Speak for yourself. I think much like Mark Twain that the entire > Book of Mormon is boring. > Violet Kimball Oh I don't know about the *whole* Book of Mormon.....I laughed right out loud at Ed's references in Alma asserting their was humor in the Book of Mormon - I have found some pretty decent drama as well....but I have been told I am unorthodox in my tastes for reading.... This Book has kept me awake during high council. If nothing else it can be a lesson in POV for - when is it Mormon and when is it not? :) Eileen eileens99@bigplanet.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Genre Date: 22 Jul 2000 00:16:43 -0600 Todd Robert Petersen wrote: > The reason I stopped reading Science > Fiction and fantasy is that it almost always relied on allegory of one kind > or another in order to make its thematic points... I think allegory is a bit strong of a word. Allegory is a specific literary form that is especially artificial and forced (and greatly disliked by the greatest fantasy writer of them all: J.R.R. Tolkien). I think you need a broader term here. > When I came to that conclusion, I thought to myself, "Why not cut out the > middle man and comment on culture directly?" To me it takes a little more > courage to, for example, castigate racism by talking about racism in the > world we live in than to make up some Sneetches or whatever and use them as > puppets for the culture. But will the ones who need to hear you listen, if you use a direct-on approach? -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jason Steed" Subject: Re: [AML] Good Writing Date: 22 Jul 2000 02:09:46 PDT Regarding Plato and Harlow's long post: It's been some time since I've studied my Plato. But as I recall, it wasn't so much that art is merely imitation and can never achieve the realm of ideal/idea that made it undesirable for Plato; rather, it was that Plato had constructed a hierarchy of knowledge and the means for obtaining it. In that hierarchy, the realm of ideals/ideas rated the highest and provided the truest, purest knowledge. At the bottom of the scale was art, which was lower than the material world (a copy of the ideal) because it was the copy of a copy, and the best it could provide was conjecture (as opposed to true, pure knowledge). So it wasn't that art couldn't achieve the ideal, it was that it couldn't provide the highest form of knowledge. I, personally, have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand, I tend to disagree with Plato because I think there are ways of knowing, and bits of knowledge, that I only obtain through art--knowledge that comes not by reason or rational (logos), but through the mythos and pathos art can provide. On the other hand, Plato's realm of ideals/ideas is divine in nature, and it seems one might relate a communion with that realm to a communion with the divine--a sort of revelation (that provides the truest knowledge). He may not have the details right, but part of me does understand how he might mistrust art--which can so easily be misinterpreted, misused, misguided, etc. (hence, the relegation of it to the realms of 'conjecture' rather than 'knowledge'). Take, for example, the scriptures. They are much, much closer to a work of art than a doctrinal, theological or philosophical treatise; they rely much more on mythos and pathos than logos, and in fact John replaces the Greek notion of logos (reason) with God, when he uses the Greek word (logos) to say that "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." In this passage, logos is translated as 'word' and equated with God. And this is not the elevation of logos to god-like status (the Greeks had already done this), but the replacement of logos with God--an abstraction, known not through reason but primarily through myth and emotion. On the one hand, as I was saying, art (such as the scriptures) provides a knowledge that cannot be had through mere reason--thus I would disagree with Plato's disdain for it. But on the other hand--well, look at the confusion that art like the scriptures has caused, or at least facilitated. In Plato's ideal state, the scriptures would not be allowed, because they can provide only conjecture--in and of themselves, they offer no true or pure knowledge. They be interpreted in myriad ways, to suit the fancy of the interpreter. It is only through direct communion with the divine (for us Mormons that means revelation, the Spirit--what Plato might call his realm of ideals/ideas) that true knowledge is gained. And though Plato, again, misses all the details, part of me says he was close--on the right track maybe. I think art is the attempt at some form of knowledge, and the quest for knowledge is always necessary and valuable; thus art is necessary and valuable, especially as a right-brained, mythical alternative to left-brained reason. But I do wonder how necessary art will be after this life. Is it possible that the Mormon version of Plato's Republic is the Millenium? (Instead of an ideal philosophical state with a philosopher-ruler, we'll have a theocracy--which seems a fair enough parallel.) And is it possible that in that state, wherein we will have direct access to the divine, to true and pure knowledge, through what I can only presume will be daily direct revelation--is it possible that in that state, the ambiguity and uncertainty of art will not only be no longer necessary, but no longer desirable? (Plato allowed poets into his ideal state, but only to sing praises to the state, etc.--can we imagine anything other than hymns of praise in the presence of Deity?) I don't know. I really don't know. Again, I'm of two minds on this. But I don't think Plato's as "out there" as some seem to believe... Jason ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jason Steed" Subject: Re: [AML] Great Authors Date: 22 Jul 2000 01:27:07 PDT >Though Sharlee closed with a grin, I have given serious lawn-mowing thought >to >her list. I simply don't know much about George Eliot because the last >time a >teacher took her seriously enough to teach, it was after recess and we had >to >lay our heads on our desks while she read out loud. Sad but true. Don't >shoot >me, I'm only the messenger. Your teacher read Eliot to you in grade school? FYI (in case you weren't aware), Eliot is taken very seriously at the college level, and taught often. >Toni Morrison, a youngest child, all older brothers. She was "The Pretty >One." >And straight-A's. Her father adored her and doted on her and rained >favoritism >and one day her brothers were goofing with a BB gun and shot her in the >eye. >Big, blue cataract--blind. Grades plummeted, self-image plummeted, >alienated >and marginalized. The Bluest Eye. Actually, if I'm not mistaken, it was Alice Walker whose eye was put out. Toni Morrison still sees with both. _The Bluest Eye_ is her first novel, and I haven't read it; but if it's about losing an eye, it is not (again, as far as I know) autobiographical--at least with respect to eyesight. >So if alienation and marginalization serve the same role in elevating women >writers to greatness that being a blind, drunk, sorcerer served for Milton, >Faulkner, and Yeats, then I'd say a few things here about women (not just >the >writers) and the Mormon Church if this were the kind of list that allowed >such >things to be said, which it isn't. So I won't. How was Yeats a sorcerer? >My .02 is that both Woolf and O'Connor died too young to fully realize >their >greatness. Same with John Keats and Poe. O'Connor left an all-too-small >legacy >of short stories and only the one novel, "Wise Blood." I've loved her work >since the first time I read it and time has only made the pain of her early >death more acute. Ach! What we lost! She had a second novel: _The Violent Bear it Away_. I too am a great admirer of Keats and O'Connor, and lament their untimely deaths. But both seemed to know that death would come early, and I wonder if that didn't increase their greatness. IOW, perhaps they would not have been so great had they not been overshadowed by impending doom. Or perhaps, had they lived, they might have gone on, like Wordsworth or Emerson, to produce works that arguably lessened or compromised their greatness. >Toni Morrison, great initials! But it's too soon to tell about her >writing. A >person has to wait a bit for any lasting greatness to become apparent. >It's >great that she won the Nobel Prize. They don't just give those things >away. >Wait, yes they do. She could be, potentially, half as good as Milton. I'm not sure it's too early for Morrison. She's been around since the early '70s at least, and many felt the Pulitzer for _Beloved_ was LONG overdue. No, I think it's safe to proclaim her greatness. She's easily among the best novelists of the 20th century, at any rate. But Milton seems an odd comparison...I would hold her up against Faulkner. Jason ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cathy Wilson" Subject: Re: [AML] The Onion Skewers Mormons Date: 22 Jul 2000 08:52:55 -0600 I just went with a colleague on a trip to Colorado City--to promote my book _Simple and Essential_ and promote essential oils. This article sounds like what we experienced there. (For the blessedly uninformed, Colorado City is a big polygamist colony). Cathy (Gileadi) Wilson Editing Etc. 15 East 600 North Price UT 84501 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Melissa Proffitt Subject: [AML] PLUMMER, _A Dance For Three_ (Review) Date: 21 Jul 2000 22:17:14 -0600 _A Dance for Three_ by Louise Plummer. Delacorte Press, 2000; 230 pages, $15.95 Reviewed by Melissa Proffitt My baby is four weeks old today. Four weeks ago I held her for the first time, marveling for the fourth time that something so precious and = fragile as a newborn baby should be both so difficult and so easy to come by. = Today the newness is starting to wear off, eroded by sleepless nights and occasional projectile vomiting; I don't love her any less, but she no = longer feels like a visitor to our family and I've started really hoping she'll sleep through the night soon. But four weeks wasn't enough time to eliminate my reluctance to read Louise Plummer's latest novel, _A Dance = for Three_. I didn't want to read it yet because the idea of being young and pregnant and alone, forced to choose between keeping a baby I can't = properly care for and giving up a child I love--because I remember very clearly = how it felt to see this little one for the first time, how quickly I loved her--is just too painful, too close. Still, this morning I read the = book, and I'm glad I did. This is not just a book about teen pregnancy; = Plummer's considerable skill with words gives shape to this remarkable story that = is neither preachy nor permissive, but speaks beautifully about love and growing up, about responsibility, friendship, and truth. 15-year-old Hannah Ziebarth's life is in turmoil. After her father's unexpected death, her mother became severely agoraphobic and = unstable--she won't answer the phone, won't go outside, won't even make herself a sandwich. Hannah has to take on the responsibility of caring for her = mother and working a part-time job to help pay the bills. Then Milo Fabiano = takes notice of her. Milo is a handsome, popular older boy, and Hannah loves = him passionately. Then she discovers she's pregnant. Hannah imagines how wonderful life will be with Milo and their baby; she sees them married, = in their own home together, just the three of them. The reality is a nightmare: Milo spurns her, trashes her reputation, deserts her. Yet, as I said at the beginning, this is not a book "about" teen = pregnancy. Prompted to write this book because of the pregnancy of one of her close relatives, Plummer says of _A Dance for Three_ "I realized that the pregnancy itself was only part of a whole group of problems . . . I = wanted to show how a pregnancy affects a girl who is already overwhelmed with a troubled life" (from About the Author). The book is about Hannah--about = the struggles of a girl who has been forced too early into the role of adult.= =20 It's clear from the beginning that Hannah, having taken on many responsibilities, believes she is an adult emotionally if not chronologically. It's implicit in her ongoing sexual relationship with = Milo and grows firmer with her pregnancy--she decides that if she can be pregnant, she can drive her father's car, she can marry Milo, she can support herself and the baby. But it's equally clear that Hannah is = still a child. Though her unwanted pregnancy is central to the plot, the real pressure on Hannah is her mother's effective absence from her life; and = like most children, Hannah wants her mother. Though Milo's brutal rejection = of her and their baby triggers Hannah's mental breakdown, her recovery = depends on her learning to forgive and love her mother--and on her mother's own recovery from her self-indulgent helplessness. Plummer tells the story through three perspectives--Hannah's, her best friend Trilby's, and that of Milo's brother Roman--moving back and forth between her narrators to cover every part of the story. At times the narrative overlaps to show both sides of an episode, and I found this layering particularly effective. Plummer reveals how interconnected our lives are--how one person's tragedy really belongs to everyone that = person cares about, everyone who cares for her. Though Hannah feels alone, she eventually sees that she has a network of friends who love her: not just = her best friend, but her best friend's mother, her bishop, her neighbors. Conversely, Roman's poignant last line, "Uncles have no rights," = summarizes how painful it is to have this connection to another person and be forced= to give it up. Roman's section hints at the possibility of another ending = to this story, had Hannah loved him instead of Milo; while the novel ends in Hannah giving up her baby for adoption, if Roman had been the father, he would have behaved differently and they might have tried to make a = family. This element is just one of the ways that Plummer keeps this novel from becoming a treatise on unwed teen pregnancy and how to deal with it; the answers she gives are not pat formulas, not easy at all. The "dance for three" of the title refers specifically to a young family Hannah sees at an outdoor concert: "when one parent got tired, the other took him, or when the baby grew bored with one, he moved to the other. = It was a natural dance for three" (p. 220). But there are many other dances going on within this novel, many other threes. The three voices of the novel: Hannah, Trilby, and Roman. The three members of Hannah's family: Hannah, her mother, and her dead father. The failed triad of Hannah's dreams: Hannah, Milo, and their baby. And, more subtly, the three = stages Hannah goes through in the novel, from the overburdened dreamer to the broken girl in therapy and through to the real adult she is becoming. Plummer weaves all these threesomes in a dance of their own, supported by vivid imagery of the Salt Lake landscape (informed readers will know what kind of family Milo comes from by her mention of their "east bench home" long before she actually describes it) and clear and beautiful characterization. _A Dance for Three_ is painful, but wonderfully true, = and it's worthwhile reading for people of all ages. Melissa Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pup7777@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Genre Date: 22 Jul 2000 12:28:51 EDT In a message dated 00-07-22 12:09:08 EDT, you write: << When I read _Loving With a Vengeance: Mass-Produced Fantasies for Women_ by Tania Modleski, it helped me understand the romance genre and value it. But even more importantly, it helped me understand why women read romance--it made a comment on human society that was valuable >> Would you mind summarizing some of the reasons and tell us a few of the main points of the book? I would love to understand more about it but lack the time to read the book right now. Thanks. Lisa Peck - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: eedh Subject: [AML] BYU Children's Writing Conference Date: 22 Jul 2000 11:09:37 -0700 I would love to hear as many details as possible about BYU's children's writing conference from anyone who was there. You could send them to my private email address, if you'd like. Thanks! -Beth Hatch [MOD: This would be appropriate for sending out over the entire List.] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN BYU Professor of religion to speak on history of Nauvoo Date: 22 Jul 2000 15:07:46 EDT Temple: BYU Press Release 21Jul00 D3 [From Mormon-News] BYU Professor of religion to speak on history of Nauvoo Temple BYU Press Release 21Jul00 D3 PROVO, UTAH -- The history and rebuilding of the Latter-day Saint Nauvoo Temple will be the subject of a forum held at Brigham Young University Tuesday (July 25) at 11 a.m. in the Joseph Smith Auditorium. The forum by Robert C. Freeman, assistant professor of religion in the Department of Church History and Doctrine, will be broadcast live on KBYU-TV (Channel 11) and KBYU-FM (89.1). It will be rebroadcast on Sunday (July 30) at 6 a.m. on Channel 11 and at 8 p.m. on 89.1 FM. A question and answer session will follow the forum at noon in the Joseph Smith Auditorium. Freeman, an assistant professor at BYU since 1996, received his bachelor's degree in geology from BYU. He graduated from law school at Western State University in Fullerton, Calif. Prior to his assignment at BYU, Freeman spent 11 years in the Church Education System. He has published several articles and is involved in various research projects. Currently, he and colleague Dennis Wright are working with hundreds of LDS veterans and their families to preserve the experiences of Latter-day Saint servicemen during World Wars I and II. - ### - >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN LDS Drama Teacher Leaves Legacy: (Phoenix) AZ Republic Date: 22 Jul 2000 15:07:46 EDT P2 [From Mormon-News] LDS Drama Teacher Leaves Legacy (Drama teacher's legacy) (Phoenix) AZ Republic 14Jul00 P2 http://www.azcentral.com:80/community/comstories/0714selim.shtml By Anita Mabante Leach: The Arizona Republic PEORIA, ARIZONA -- Former students and colleagues of a beloved drama teacher are remembering him after his sudden passing this month. Ron Selim of Peoria, Arizona, passed away in his sleep, leaving his wife Lynne and their three children. The active LDS family man helped his students in the Peoria Unifed School District learn not only about theater, but about their own potential. Former student Jaime Piepenburg says, "Ron Selim, for four years, was the person I saw more than my parents! From the time I was a freshman and scared out of my wits to get on stage, he was my biggest supporter. He made me believe I could do anything I put hard work into." Peoria High School choral director Michael Hancey says Brother Selim was a huge help to him as Hancey began teaching there. "I was having a difficult time, as all new teachers do, and he was a really good leader and spiritual guide for me. When my youngest child, Elizabeth, was six weeks old, she was rushed to the hospital for surgery. The only person I could think of to call was Ron, and he came immediately to be with us. I try and remember the things that he taught me: to be willing to give service, being available at a moment's notice." Other teachers remember all the time that Brother and Sister Selim put into making sets and costumes for productions. Band director Gary Flowers says, "That really, to me, says it all. The fact that he spent so much time, putting in long hours. He was always a joy to work with. We're going to miss him tremendously." Brother Selim also helped a local community theater group for children pull together after their founder had to step down. Maria Ballance from the Playhouse Theater for Children says, "If it wasn't for Ron Selim, the theater probably would have died, (it) would not have continued without him and his resources - his students, technical help and theater management class." >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Allred Subject: Re: [AML] Genre Date: 22 Jul 2000 14:49:40 -0600 Gae Lyn Henderson asked: >>who has done science fiction theory? A short answer might be "just about every practitioner in the field" (just check out any of the online communities where sf pros hang out and expound --at great length!--on the genre). Seriously, there is a number of people (and organizations) doing serious scholarship on sf criticism: The New York Review of Science Fiction, Tangent Magazine, Mythopoeic Society, Uchronia (alternate history), The Council for the Literature of the Fantastic (CLF), and of course the J. Wayne and Elsie M. Gunn Center for the Study of Science Fiction. (URLs for all of the above can be found on my sf criticism webpage: www.leeallred.com/lscorc10.htm) A little closer to home (or at least the AML-List) are the papers presented at the annual AML conference and BYU's LTU&E sf symposium (proceedings volumes available from each of those organizations). You also might want to check out the non-fiction listed by the Bibliography of Mormon Speculative Fiction. (http://home.airswitch.net/MormonBib/index.html) I've done a bit of dabbling at sf criticism theory myself (AML, LTU&E, etc.), although most of my efforts were adapting non-sf literary theories (Gardner's ON MORAL FICTION and Givens' VIPER ON THE HEARTH) to examine sf. (An exception might be my "The Individual Vs. The Zion Community: An Empirical Look At The Dichotomy In Mormon SF" paper, but even that borrowed heavily from Eugene England.) However, a good, short starting point might be an on-line essay by LDS sf author Dave Wolverton on the genre: "On Writing as a Fantasist." (www.sff.net/people/DTruesdale/wolverton1.htp) Lee ------- Lee Allred leea@sff.net www.leeallred.com ------- - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Adams Subject: [AML] Re: Great Authors Date: 23 Jul 2000 21:42:13 -0500 >Re: Holden Caulfield. As a teen (which is absoultely the wrong time for >anyone to read Salinger--Jason, any resonses? I saw your CFP for Salinger >stuff .) I hated CATCHER IN THE RYE because I wanted to beat up >Caulfield for being such a whiner. I still find little value in >self-abnecation and chest deflation through intellectual and emotional >rebellion, but I think that Salinger is okay. I read _Catcher_ as a teen for a high school Lit. class. I distinctly remember my father passing by my door and asking what I was reading. I said, "_Catcher in the Rye._" He grumbled disapproval and said, "That's a dirty book." Well, of course I flipped through the book then, looking (I'm only human after all, forgive me) for what he was talking about. I never found them. I guess I should read it again, now that I've been married going on 12 years and am not quite as naive as I was then. It's been years and years, but mostly I remember it was a bit boring, and my Lit. teacher going on and on about the symbolism of Caulfield's rye fields. Yawn. Did I just miss something? Then again, I'm female. Is the content something an adolescent boy is going to be more susceptible to? BTW--I cast my vote for two women authors no one has yet mentioned. Pearl S. Buck and Anne Tyler. Anne Tyler is a "literary" writer by my definition, yet she still appeals to the masses as mainstream. Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com Writing Page: http://members.xoom.com/adamszoo Little Ones Lost: http://home.sprintmail.com/~adamszoo My new book, _Prodigal Journey,_ is now available online! Go to: http://deseretbook.com/products/4066899/index.html - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: RE: [AML] List Discourse Date: 24 Jul 2000 08:31:03 -0400 It appears that this is a recognized social conditioning. Natalie Goldberg mentions it in "Writing Down the Bones", though I have no idea if this was a researched opinion or just something she noticed. She said (loosely paraphrased because I'm too lazy to look it up) that when women are stating an opinion or sharing a thought they almost always add a disclaimer-It seems, I think, well maybe, perhaps, just a thought, maybe I'm wrong but...... Her point was that we can't write that way. We need to write with clarity and surety. I have noticed that, at least in the Mormon culture I live in, this is abundantly clear. If a woman states an opinion directly and openly, even in the nicest of tones and language, but without five minutes of disclaimers, she is often accused of being overbearing, trying to usurp priesthood authority, or creating contention. In fact, I think that last one is one of the main "bogey mans" in our culture. Someone states an opinion about a doctrine in a class-such as the "no one should ever watch an "R" rated movie" that came up in a recent RS lesson-and you can watch people's faces and see either agreement or disagreement. Often you'll get all the people who agree chiming in with their 50 cents worth, while the people who have a different opinion squirm. Stating a different opinion is often seen as beginning a controversy or causing contention even if it is offered with absolutely no heat. And if it does get a little heated, my goodness we're all going to go to a very warm place for the eternities. Where does honest, open discussion end and contention begin? In a auto-biographical book by Madeline L' Engle she wrote about growing up in a house with lots of discussion and "arguing with passion but not anger" (again, loosely quoted). I wish we could find that place. -----Original Message----- Barbara Hume wrote: "We've been socialized to behave that way, and men have been socialized to value themselves and their opinions. This situation makes itself plain, as you have noted, in correspondence as we have here, and in conversations. A man wouldn't feel the need to aplogize for stating his opinion, and it irritates me that women do feel that need." I'm not sure that this is a fair generalization (are generalizations ever fair?). AML-lister, Skip Hamilton, is unfailingly courteous, and, yes, even apologetic in his posts. Richard Johnson is always respectful of other points of view, as are Jonathan Langford, Benson Parkinson, and Harlow Clark. And I can think of several of us women (yes, I include myself) who don't seem to have any problem at all voicing our opinions. Ardis Parshall, Margaret Young, Gae Lyn Henderson, Cathy Wilson, Barbara Hume, Marilyn Brown, and Melissa Proffitt immediately come to mind. Truth is, we could all benefit by being less arrogant in discourse, more aware of our own fallibility. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Benson Parkinson Subject: [AML] New AML-List Webmaster: Terry Jeffress Date: 24 Jul 2000 08:01:16 -0700 (MST) Folks, The AML is pleased to announce that Terry Jeffress has accepted an invitation to serve as the webmaster for our three interlinked websites: The AML-List site, the AML site, and the Irreantum site. Terry is the author of the AML-List review index, which is now online. Go to www.xmission.com/~aml to see both the review archive and the pages as they stood right before I turned them over to Terry, with updated event dates and links. Thanks to Rob Pannoni for coming up with our current design. Thanks to Rob, Eric Dixon, and others for helping us refine it. Thanks to Marny Parkin for researching our newly updated links and addresses. Thanks to Chris Bigelow for helping me with the copy for the redesigned pages. Thanks to everybody I've forgotten to thank. We're glad to have this much up there--it's been needed for a long time. And we're confident that in Terry's capable hands things will only get better. Terry's address is . Drop him a line if you have comments or suggestions or would like to help. Benson Parkinson Association for Mormon Letters - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Benson Parkinson Subject: [AML] New AML-List Webmaster: Terry Jeffress Date: 24 Jul 2000 08:01:16 -0700 (MST) Folks, The AML is pleased to announce that Terry Jeffress has accepted an invitation to serve as the webmaster for our three interlinked websites: The AML-List site, the AML site, and the Irreantum site. Terry is the author of the AML-List review index, which is now online. Go to www.xmission.com/~aml to see both the review archive and the pages as they stood right before I turned them over to Terry, with updated event dates and links. Thanks to Rob Pannoni for coming up with our current design. Thanks to Rob, Eric Dixon, and others for helping us refine it. Thanks to Marny Parkin for researching our newly updated links and addresses. Thanks to Chris Bigelow for helping me with the copy for the redesigned pages. Thanks to everybody I've forgotten to thank. We're glad to have this much up there--it's been needed for a long time. And we're confident that in Terry's capable hands things will only get better. Terry's address is . Drop him a line if you have comments or suggestions or would like to help. Benson Parkinson Association for Mormon Letters - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eileen Subject: [AML] Re: Great Authors Date: 24 Jul 2000 10:23:25 -0600 Linda Adams wrote: > BTW--I cast my vote for two women authors no one has yet mentioned. Pearl > S. Buck and Anne Tyler. Anne Tyler is a "literary" writer by my definition, > yet she still appeals to the masses as mainstream. I wholeheartedly add my vote with Linda's for Buck and Tyler. I should like to cast my vote for Anita Brookner. Eileen eileens99@bigplanet.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: Re: [AML] Price of _Of Curious Workmanship_ Date: 24 Jul 2000 10:42:25 -0600 On Fri, 7 Jul 2000 Edgar Snow writes: > Yes, Scott, I know, I know. I argued with Signature > about the price, but they insisted that their > "audience" didn't care. I think you're evidence to the > contrary. I tell my kids all the time, "You're not going to get anything by whining. Not in my house." Then I walk away and wait for them to ask politely for whatever it was they were wanting. Then I cheerfully give it to them. This is the way the world ought to be I believe, and yet, I whined about the price of Ed's very fine book here on this list and a kind benefactor took pity upon me and ordered the book from Barnes & Noble. Had it sent right to my house. Christmas in July! I am thrilled. I think Ed will understand (and not mind one bit) if I say that his book is perfect bathroom reading. It also fits quite nicely in my scripture tote right there between my 4-in-1 and the priesthood manuel. Thank you kind benefactor ... now, what else can I whine for ... ? J. Scott Bronson--The Scotted Line "World peace begins in my home" We are not the acolytes of an abstruse god. We are here to entertain--Keith Lockhart - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tony Markham Subject: Re: [AML] Great Authors Date: 24 Jul 2000 18:10:56 -0400 Gae Lyn Henderson wrote: >Tony, please phrase it so it will work on the list, but don't just frustrate us with your unsaid >provocations. My original rant sparked a bit of an exchange between Jonathan (speaking for the list and not himself) and me, so I apologize for the truncated and provocative nature of the way I edited. Speaking daintily here, so as not to bounce or provoke. My experience has been that many, not all, talented and brilliant women feel marginalized and alienated by church policies and customs --not necessarily doctrines (God grant us the wisdom to discern among them)-- regarding women and the exercise of Priesthood Authority. This marginalization and alienation may foster great writing in some talented and brilliant women. Jason Steed wrote: >Actually, if I'm not mistaken, it was Alice Walker whose eye was put out. Toni Morrison still sees >with both. This is what happens when you get old. Your hippocampus gets as filled with holes as swiss cheese and your memory goes down the toilet. If I were on pain-killers I'd have a ready excuse, but this is just an example of crossed-wires. Sort of like confusing Ommm for Ooom. Back to Gae Lyn Henderson: > I'm pretty interested in > chanting. Anyone want to start a thread on this? It fits into the literary > notion of "marked," "special," "distinctive" language--investing such words > with transformative power--? Chanting is a special application of literature. Powerful stuff and I'm not sure that I know exactly what to make of people's experiences with it. The closest we, as Mormons, come to chanting nowadays is hymn-singing and the Hosannah Shout. We don't really have a liturgy that the entire congregation says together, repetitively to the point of achieving transformative power. And I'm fine with that. If I want to transform then I'll do it in privacy. Let me dig out the reference here, because we all know how slippery old memory can be. Simone Weil (A French-Jewish woman, who was attracted to Christianity but never could bring herself to join its primary representative--Roman Catholicism. Ach, what we lost!) wrote about the effect of chanting The Lord's Prayer in its (nearly) original language I don't know if the Greek she mentions is modern, ancient, or closer to Aramaic: "Last summer, doing Greek with T--, I went through the 'Our Father' word for word in Greek. We promised each other to learn it by heart. I do not think he ever did so, but some weeks later, as I was turning over the pages of the Gospel, I said to myself that since I had promised to do this thing and it was good, I ought to do it. I did it. The infinite sweetness of the Greek text so took hold of me that for several days I could not stop myself from saying it over all the time. A week afterward I began the vine harvest. I recited the Our Father in Greek every day before work, and I repeated it very often in the vineyard. "Since that time I have made a practice of saying it through once each morning with absolute attention. If during the recitation my attention wanders or goes to sleep, in the minutest degree, I begin again until I have once succeeded in going through it with absolutely pure attention. Sometimes it comes about that I say it again out of sheer pleasure, but I only do it if I really feel the impulse. "The effect of this practice is extraordinary and surprises me every time, for, although I experience it each day, it exceeds my expectation at each repetition. "At times the very first words tear my thoughts from my body and transport it to a place outside space where there is neither perspective nor point of view. The infinity of the ordinary expanses of perception is replaced by an infinity to the second or sometimes the third degree. At the same time, filling every part of this infinity, there is silence, a silence which is not an absence of sound but which is the object of a positive sensation, more positive than that of sound. Noises, if there are any, only reach me after crossing this silence. "Sometimes, also during this recitation or at other moments, Christ is present with me in person, but his presence is infinitely more real, more moving, more clear than on that first occasion [while chanting George Herbert's "Love" and described earlier in the letter] when he took possession of me." Again, I simply don't know what to make of this. Weil was one of the most insightful, sincere, brilliant and talented people of this century. She would not just make this up and she wouldn't over-sensationalize. And when she chanted some text, her brain imploded and she saw Christ. Talk about fodder for Reader Response literary criticism. Was this caused by the sound generated by the text? The meaning attached to the text? Is it intrinsic to the reader? Is this what you mean by transformative power? I think this is what Milton reached for in Paradise Lost. The relentless meter to his verses has a profound effect (on me) when I read them out loud that is absent when I read them silently. The same thing happens with Faulkner and Pynchon. If there is a passage that bogs down, I'll read it outloud and let the fireworks begin. The most powerful experience like this happened with Shakespeare's "The Tempest." Though not anything to the degree of Weil's experience. Tony [Markham] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike South Subject: Re: [AML] The Onion Skewers Mormons Date: 24 Jul 2000 13:21:20 -0600 Larry Jackson wrote... > And if the author wasn't LDS, then I vote he or she was Jewish ("the > covenant people of the Lord!" and "heir to the ancient covenant between God > and Abraham.") Two or three months ago the Onion did a piece about the Jewish people filing a lawsuit against God for "breach of covenant". It still makes me giggle to think about it. --Mike South - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] CARD, _A Storyteller in Zion_ Date: 24 Jul 2000 11:18:50 -0700 I received a postcard from Sam Weller's Zion Bookstore announcing that Card's _A Storyteller in Zion_ has been reprinted. I am one of several list members whose copy has gone missing, so I am looking forward to replacing it. Publication info is: Bookcraft, 2000, paperback, 215 pages, $14.95. Sam Weller's will ship it to you for $5.00 postage for 1st copy, plus $1.00 for each additional. (New book dept. 801-328-2586; 800-333-7269; wellers@xmission.com). That postage is a bit pricey for me, however. Chris Bigelow * * * * * * Read my novella about Mormon missionaries at http://www1.mightywords.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=EB00016373. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: RE: [AML] BYU Children's Writing Conference Date: 24 Jul 2000 16:44:57 -0400 I did mean to post one little piece of info. During one of the evening readings both Dean Hughes and Michael Tunnell read from their new (middle grade?) novels. Both are set in the WWII period, both are being published by NY publishers, and both contain some very directly Mormon material-missionary work, bishops, welfare....in Mormon terms-not skating around with terms that would be known by the masses. I'm looking forward to reading them in their entirety. Tracie Laulusa (Sorry Jonathan, I forget that last name at least half the time. -----Original Message----- [MOD: This would be appropriate for sending out over the entire List.] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sharlee Glenn" Subject: Re: [AML] Great Authors Date: 24 Jul 2000 15:39:08 -0600 Tony Markham wrote: > Though Sharlee closed with a grin, I have given serious lawn-mowing thought to > her list. I simply don't know much about George Eliot because the last time a > teacher took her seriously enough to teach, it was after recess and we had to > lay our heads on our desks while she read out loud. Sad but true. Don't shoot > me, I'm only the messenger. Sounds like your grade school teacher was a frustrated college English professor! :-) The book she was trying to read to you was probably _Silas Marner_ --not Eliot's greatest work, but certainly her most accessible. George Eliot is actually taken very seriously by literary scholars. _Middlemarch_ is generally recognized as one of the great novels of world literature. > But the other three are a different story. All of them were brilliant and > gifted, yet alienated and marginalized women. Virginia Woolf was a brilliant, > gifted woman in a society that basically scorned her for those very reasons. > One day she simply walked into the sea Don't mean to pick at nits, but it was actually the Ouse river. > Toni Morrison, a youngest child, all older brothers. She was "The Pretty One." > And straight-A's. Her father adored her and doted on her and rained favoritism > and one day her brothers were goofing with a BB gun and shot her in the eye. I think you are talking about Alice Walker here. O'Connor left an all-too-small legacy > of short stories and only the one novel, "Wise Blood." I've loved her work O'Connor published a second novel, _The Violent Bear It Away_, in 1960. > Toni Morrison, great initials! But it's too soon to tell about her writing. Toni Morrison is, I believe, the greatest writer America has yet produced. Better even than Faulkner. Come to think of it, so is Eudora Welty! (How's that for opinionated? :-) Sharlee Glenn glennsj@inet-1.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Johnson Subject: RE: [AML] List Discourse Date: 24 Jul 2000 21:26:15 -0400 > >I have noticed that, at least in the Mormon culture I live in, this is >abundantly clear. If a woman states an opinion directly and openly, even in >the nicest of tones and language, but without five minutes of disclaimers, >she is often accused of being overbearing, trying to usurp priesthood >authority, or creating contention. I'm sure glad that I don't live in the Mormon culture that you live in (Seriously, I don't know where you live but I guarantee you that it isn't the same everywhere. It isn't even the same--out here in Georgia-- in different wards in the same stake- vive le difference -or however you spell it) >beginning a controversy or causing contention even if it is offered with >absolutely no heat. And if it does get a little heated, my goodness we're >all going to go to a very warm place for the eternities. Where does honest, >open discussion end and contention begin? I don't know. In my family it is ideal because the one with the loudest voice always wins (the first round) and I have the loudest voice. The second round is a bit more dialectic. Richard B. Johnson Husband, Father, Grandfather, Puppeteer, Playwright, Writer, Director, Actor, Thingmaker, Mormon, Person, Fool I sometimes think that the last persona is the most important http://www2.gasou.edu/commarts/puppet/ Georgia Southern University Puppet Theatre - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Annette Lyon" Subject: [AML] Re: Genre Date: 24 Jul 2000 21:17:15 -0600 Todd Robert Peterson wrote: The reason I stopped reading Science Fiction and fantasy is that it almost always relied on allegory of one kind or another in order to make its thematic points... When I came to that conclusion, I thought to myself, "Why not cut out the middle man and comment on culture directly?" To me it takes a little more courage to, for example, castigate racism by talking about racism in the world we live in than to make up some Sneetches or whatever and use them as puppets for the culture. Not that all fantasy works on the symbolic level, but for the works that do, I heartily disagree that the messages could hit the target as precisely as they do without the "middle man" of symbol and metaphor. Also, symbols and allegories (using the term loosely) allow layers of meaning. I first read C.S. Lewis's Narnia series in 5th grade, and loved it simply for the story. Then my older sister began talking about the symbolism, and I had no idea what she was talking about. A few years back I reread them (and enjoyed them twice as much), and couldn't keep myself from marking up the books with notes about the symbols and insights. I'm sure I scratched only the surface of Lewis's symbolic world, and that there are many layers I didn't even get a glimpse of. That wouldn't have been possible had Lewis told his story without Aslan and the witch and the whole ball of wax. The messages are possible _because_ of the fantasy realm. And I would hardly call Aslan a "puppet." The books work precisely because they aren't screaming their message at you; at age 10 I loved the story, and didn't even realize that the author had included anything else. As an adult (and more seasoned reader), I picked up on those other things, and it made the experience richer. Remember, even Christ used symbols ("the middle man") with the parables. Somehow I think the Master knew how best to get his message across. (Not that a work must be allegorical to provide a message, but those that do it right can be mighty powerful.) Annette Lyon ________________________________________________________ 1stUp.com - Free the Web Get your free Internet access at http://www.1stUp.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: Re: [AML] Good Writing Date: 25 Jul 2000 00:40:38 -0700 On 7/24/2000 Marilyn Brown writes: > Harlow wrote: "I wonder how our esthetics would change if we looked > at art as proffered gift rather than as potential gift (German for > Poison) > > But I may not have quite > understood the last sentence (above). What did you mean by looking > at art as a POTENTIAL gift? That the potential might be the poison > it would fester were it hooked with religious symbolism, etc? Thanks > as always for your insight. Marilyn Brown Odd what sticks in one's mind from classes nearly 25 years ago. (Oy, do I feel old!) As a freshguy at BYZ I took a German class from Arthur Watkins (I think that was his name). We were reading part of a play by Schiller (Mina von Barnhelm comes to mind, but I'm not even sure if that's his play) and one of the characters gives another something to eat, which she does, then cries out, "Gift, gift" and dies. Brother Watkins explained that at one time it was common enough practice to give someone a gift of poisoned food that the word _gift_ came to mean _poison_. I believe a work of art is a gift, but is sometimes regarded as gift, as something that may look appealing but hide poison on the inside. In a way this perception is the doing of literary theorists and critics. The two most significant books of lit crit/theory of the last 50 years may be Leslie Fiedler's(I read that name just now and thought of Tevye's wonderful voice on the Yiddish cast album saying, "Wie, wie, wie . . . ein fiedler aussem dach.") _No! In Thunder_ and Lionel Trilling's _Beyond Culture_. When I say significant I don't necessarily mean important, I mean that they signify everything that has happened in literary theory since people like Trilling established modern lit as an academic subject after the war. The idea that literature says no! in thunder, and that the artist exists and should exist outside--beyond--culture informed the way literature was taught me from high school through graduate school and still informed the way it was taught when I was at UVSC a couple of years back. I became aware of the approach when I skipped some classes at Provo High one afternoon and hiked up the hill to hear Marden Clark give his BYU centennial lecture, "Art, Science and Religion: The Profounder Challenge" (in _Liberating Form_ (edited by one HSC with a note to him in the dedication)). We were hometeaching Harvey Fletcher at the time (who first observed brownian motion--though he was only a grad student at the time, so he didn't get credit for it: at his funeral several said they thought he should have shared his professor's Nobel prize for the discovery), and MJC made a reference to his scientist friends and said that while science can posit a universe without God, literature often cannot posit a universe with a loving God, given the immense evil in the world and the suffering of innocent people. Scientists can reconcile their profession with their religion fairly easily, he said, if they want to. Artists often cannot. Thus literature is a profounder challenge to religious belief than science. I've been thinking about this lately because my niece sent me a Deseret Book called _Of Heaven and Earth: Reconciling Scientific Thought with LDS Theology_, ed. by David L. Clark, for Father's Day. It's a group of LDS scientists tackling the difficult science-religion questions with kid gloves--taking great pains to establish their credentials as faithful members of the church. I could put together a similar book of literary critics, but I wonder if DB would publish it. We simply do not trust literature and art the way we do science, even though writers and artists serve as mission presidents, relief society presidents, stake presidents, primary presidents, bishops YW presidents, and in other callings as faithfully as scientists. Part of the mistrust is the profounder challenge literature can make to religious belief. But, as Dr. Clark said in his essay, those who take up that profounder challenge are missing the true profounder challenge, the challenge to create literature that affirms goodness not simply by condemning evil but by making good, and the lives of good people, dramatic and appealing. Anyway, that essay was my introduction to Trilling's essay, which I sought out and read a few years later. About 10 years ago I decided it was time to start presenting papers to the AML. A great deal of what my essays have done in that time is an implicit--sometimes explicit--response to Trilling. Trilling recognized the tremendous energy of literature between about 1830 and 1950, and that that energy was directed at culture, but I don't think he recognized the source, which I believe was part of the pentecostal outpouring that accompanied events like the dedication of a new temple and the publication of a new book of scripture. I believe literature and art was tool and beneficiary of that energy, and helped to break apart corrupt kingdoms so the Gospel could be restored. I think my essays have understood, though, that there is a tremendous cost to the perception that art acts against society, that we need to rethink our image of art. My major project for the first half of last year was a complex essay called "Lucid Dreaming," which Gina Clark (one of these people like Hugh Brown Brown's mother who married someone with the same last name), wonderful poet, reshaped with the simple comment, "You've set yourself a task with that title." I hope the essay is both lucid and dreamlike. I suspect it's what all my essays have been striving for, the lucidity of good litcrit with the dreamlike quality of a good personal essay. The lucid dream I take my readers through begins with literature as death and ends with literature as a gift the reader shapes along with the writer. It's sat a year, still a good piece, and I'll likely be presenting it at Sunstone (if they can schedule me for a morning session). My that was a long explanation of a bilingual pun. Was it lucid, or is everyone nodding off into a dream-like state? H. Soderborg C. ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] AML-Sponsored Sunstone Session Date: 24 Jul 2000 12:06:10 -0700 The Assoc. for Mormon Letters is sponsoring the following session at this year's Sunstone Symposium: Thursday, August 3, 4:45-6:15 p.m. (Salt Lake Marriott, 75 S. West Temple) Panel: Little Mormon Magazines: Sinking, Swimming, and Treading Water Abstract: The eagerness of Mormons to communicate about issues of interest has led to the launching of many special-interest periodicals, beginning in 1833 with the _Evening and Morning Star_ in Independence, Missouri. But not all of these little ships make it past shoals to the deep ocean of exciting voyages. This knowledgeable panel will identify their secrets for assuring prosperous publishing. Moderator/panelist: Lavina Fielding Anderson, president, Editing Inc. Panelists: Tory Anderson, former editor, _Wasatch Review Int'l_ Tessa Santiago, editor, _The People_ Chris Bigelow, coeditor, _Irreantum_ * * * * * * Read my novella about Mormon missionaries at http://www1.mightywords.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=EB00016373. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] The Onion Skewers Mormons Date: 25 Jul 2000 09:27:06 -0700 <<>> That one was HILARIOUS. And another funny religion-related one recently = was about God answering a little boy's prayer for a cure to a terrible = disease. The answer was no. There have been many others. I look forward all week to Wednesdays, which is Onion day. Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Perry Subject: [AML] Perspective (LDS) on Harry Potter Date: 25 Jul 2000 08:27:05 -0600 Meridian Magazine online has an interesting LDS perspective on Harry Potter which I very much enjoyed and agreed with. Steve Perry http://www.meridianmagazine.com/articles/000721potter.html - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] Volunteers Needed for Envelope Orgy Date: 25 Jul 2000 11:18:40 -0700 [MOD: I'm not even touching that subject line...] With several big events coming up, the Association for Mormon Letters is doing a large (for us) mailing to our membership and other interested parties. We need some help to label, stuff, and sort about 1,200 envelopes with flyers. The flyers are for: fundraiser featuring Chieko Okazaki, writers conference, Irreantum subscriptions/AML memberships, the annual AML literary symposium, and AML-List/AML website. We are looking for 5-6 people who can meet at 6:00 on Tuesday evening, August 15th, in Provo or Springville (either at Chris Bigelow's Provo house or Marilyn Brown's Villa theater--if you volunteer, let us know your preference as far as travel goes). The reward will be not only helping further the cause of Mormon literature but also pizza on the AML's tab (no sauce or pepperoni grease on envelopes, please). Come for an hour or until the job is done, whatever you're able. Let us know ASAP if you're a firm volunteer, because if we don't get enough, we need to pursue other avenues (kidnapping BYU students for our labor camp, for instance). Chris Bigelow, chrisb@enrich.com * * * * * * Read my novella about Mormon missionaries at http://www1.mightywords.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=EB00016373. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] _Pioneer_ Magazine Needs Writer Date: 25 Jul 2000 10:57:14 -0700 The Pioneer Magazine (a small but proud publication produced by the Sons of Utah Pioneers) is looking for a good writer to author a piece about pioneer medicine or health. The next issue of the magazine (which will come out in September) is featuring the program where the Church subsidized the medical education of selected members to go back east and earn a medical degree. We have that piece already in hand. However, we want a smaller sidebar piece about health and medical practices during the pioneer era (1847-1860s). We are looking for something about 2,000 words in length and easy, accessible reading; our audience is interested in history but are not necessarily avid historians. Much of the article could be exceprts from people's own stories, journals, etc., or it might be a closer, in-depth look at a specific aspect of medicine or health during that era. Now here's the caveat--the magazine is currently struggling to stay alive (have you heard that sob story before?), and we are hoping to find a good writer who wants a clip for his or her portfolio--and nothing else. At this point in time, the magazine is unable to pay (we may possibly be able to pay $100, but that is uncomfirmed at this point). We are hoping in the near future, however, to have more solid financial backing, so we may be able to pay for future articles, but not this time. This article might be worth getting a foot in the door. . . (how does that sound for humble begging?) Anyway, if anyone is interested, please email me (kellene Adams, managing editor) at tkra@uswest.net. And by the way, if any of you have any queries or already-written stories you'd like us to consider, I'd be happy to do so. Our main interest is pioneer articles featuring aspects of life in Utah from 1847-1869 or so. Again, we can't pay yet, but if you're already got a piece written or simply want a great clip for your portfolio, give us a thought. Thanks for your time. [Forwarded thru Chris Bigelow] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] DUTCHER, _God's Army_ at Sunstone Date: 25 Jul 2000 11:57:22 -0700 I had to type up the preliminary program info on the _God's Army_ session at Sunstone for a friend, so I thought I may as well forward it here too: Plenary session, 8:00 p.m., Thursday, August 3 (Salt Lake Marriott) "Mormonism on the Big Screen: What to Make of Richard Dutcher's Motion Picture Success, _God's Army_" Utahns have flocked to see _God's Army_ more than any other movie this year. Since opening in SLC in March, it has played, is now playing, and continues to open in major cities throughout the U.S. What are people saying about a movie based on the exploits of an apartment of Mormon missionaries serving in L.A.? Does its success mean that there's a viable big-screen market for LDS films and LDS audiences? Is _God's Army_ the breakthrough _Saturday's Warrior_ for Mormon film, and can we now expect a flood of copycats? What lessons should be learned about telling Mormon stories to Mormons? And is Mormonism at the point where orthodox artists can tell their stories in ways that resonate within and beyond the LDS community? Come, here what thoughtful critics and the filmmaker have to say. Panelists: -Troy Williams, film student, U of Utah -Geoff Pingree, director, Institute for Documentary Filmmaking at Documentary Center, George Washington U. -Barbara Bannon, theater critic, _Event News Weekly_; editor, Sundance Film Festival catalog -To be announced -Richard Dutcher, writer, director, and cast member of _God's Army_ * * * * * * Read my novella about Mormon missionaries at http://www1.mightywords.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=EB00016373. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] MN LDS Drama Teacher Leaves Legacy: (Phoenix) AZ Republic Date: 25 Jul 2000 12:27:50 -0600 This is a great loss. Ron Selim's son, Jeremy, is a current BYU student, = in the Theatre department, and a finer young man does not walk the = earth--hard working, kind, generous, bright. Ron was a wonderful father, = in addition to his remarkable accomplishments as a teacher. High school = theatre teachers can do an amazing amount of good in the world. Eric Samuelsen=20 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Good Writing Date: 25 Jul 2000 11:55:40 -0600 Jason, in a most thought provoking post suggested that=20 >I tend to=20 >disagree with Plato because I think there are ways of knowing, >and bits = of knowledge, that I only obtain through art--knowledge >that comes not by = reason or rational (logos), but through the >mythos and pathos art can = provide. >On the other hand, Plato's realm of ideals/ideas is divine in >nature,=20 What Plato really did was privilege the Logos, suggest that knowledge = obtained through reason was superior to other forms of knowledge. In the = Ion, he argued that the realm of art is divine in its origins, and = therefore suspect; the artist doesn't know where his ideas came from, = while the philosopher does, having reasoned them out. =20 The ideal forms of Plato are a particularly interesting idea, I think; = this notion that any actual chair isn't an ideal chair, because it's = flawed and mortal; the only real chair is the ideal form for chairness, of = which all actual chairs are merely imitations. I'm reminded of those odd = passages in Moses 3: 5-7, where the Lord mentions, as though in passing, = the idea that all things were created spiritually before they were created = physically. =20 I've felt this from time to time, this odd feeling that I'm not so much = writing something as discovering it, unearthing it, that my characters = already exist, and wait for me to give them breath. I think that art = exists as a kind of training ground for Gods in embryo. I think learn how = to say "let there be light" as artists, where the stakes are relatively = low. And I don't think it matters whether our experience of art is as = creators or spectators; both are valuable. For that reason, I place lessons learned from art at the very top of my = own epistemological hierarchy, just slightly below and to the right hand = of revelation. In fact, I think that great works of art are precisely = what Nephi is talking about in 2 Nephi 29:11. I think he's talking about = Hamlet and A Doll House and Huckleberry Finn every bit as much as he's = talking about the Koran. =20 Jason continued: >He may not have the details right part of me does understand >how he = might mistrust art--which can so easily be misinterpreted, >misused, = misguided, etc. (hence, the relegation of it to the realms >of 'conjecture'= rather than 'knowledge'). I prefer conjecture to knowledge. I don't think the realms of knowledge = are very large at all. Conjecture is what passes for knowledge for most = of us most of the time. And as long as we acknowledge that what we think = we know we only think we know (conjecture), we're on much safer ground, as = it engenders the pleasing sort of humility necessary to salvation. I know = precious little, and what I do know is mostly tentative. And that's a = good thing. =20 >Take, for example, the scriptures. They are much, much closer to >a work = of art than a doctrinal, theological or philosophical >treatise; they rely = much more on mythos and pathos than logos, Precisely why the scriptures are so infinitely more valuable than any = philosophical treatise ever written. >I think art is the attempt at some form of knowledge, and the >quest for = knowledge is always necessary and valuable; thus art >is necessary and = valuable, especially as a right-brained, mythical >alternative to = left-brained reason.=20 As long as the quest remains a quest, sure. As long as certainty = continues to elude us, sure. I don't know what the right brain/left brain = stuff has to do with this (I tend to find those studies pretty suspect). = I do trust a half-understood, half-remembered myth far more than the most = soundly grounded scientific fact, and infinitely more than the most = exquisitely reasoned syllogism. =20 >But I do wonder how necessary art will be after this life. Is it = >possible that the Mormon version of Plato's Republic is the=20 >Millenium? (Instead of an ideal philosophical state with a=20 >philosopher-ruler, we'll have a theocracy--which seems a fair >enough = parallel.)=20 Right now, from my admittedly limited, non-Millennial point of view, I'd = say that if there isn't any art then, I don't want any part of it. I = think it's going to be a haven for artists. >And is it possible that in that state, wherein we will have=20 >direct access to the divine, to true and pure knowledge, through >what I = can only presume will be daily direct revelation--is it >possible that in = that state, the ambiguity and uncertainty of art will >not only be no = longer necessary, but no longer desirable? (Plato >allowed poets into his = ideal=20 >state, but only to sing praises to the state, etc.--can we imagine = >anything other than hymns of praise in the presence of Deity?) What a frightening, unendurable thought. For me, the single greatest idea = of the Restored Gospel, is the idea of a dynamic, as opposed to a static = heaven. An eternity where we sing hymns of praise to the Almighty as our = only form of artistic expression is, very simply, hell. Heaven is a realm = where we continually learn and grow and develop and serve. And what will = we learn? How to create. What is God's art form? As Marvin Payne so = memorably put it a couple of years ago, we're living in it. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: [AML] Re: Great Authors Date: 25 Jul 2000 12:53:31 -0600 I read Catcher in the Rye when I was fifteen. It changed my life. I had = never read a book that spoke to me so personally, that seemed so true. I = mean, in most ways I'm nothing whatever like Holden Caulfield. But that = voice, that amazing voice. I heard it in my head for years. =20 Maybe it's a guy thing. My son loves it like I do. My daughter and my = wife, not so much. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Adams Subject: Re: [AML] CARD, _A Storyteller in Zion_ Date: 25 Jul 2000 14:22:28 -0500 At 01:18 PM 7/24/00, you wrote: >That postage is a bit pricey for >me, however. > >Chris Bigelow Chris, I'm just curious, why do you fuss about postage when you live in Utah and can pick these books up at any LDS bookstore, postage-free? Have gas prices increased that much in Utah too? ;-) I agree it's a bit high too--but I'm a little more stuck with such things, living in Missouri. Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com Writing Page: http://members.xoom.com/adamszoo Little Ones Lost: http://home.sprintmail.com/~adamszoo My new book, _Prodigal Journey,_ is now available online! Go to: http://deseretbook.com/products/4066899/index.html - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] CARD, _A Storyteller in Zion_ Date: 25 Jul 2000 14:26:43 -0700 I do most everything I possibly can by e-mail and snail mail. I even mail = my tithing each month. (I dislike the phone and errands.) I hate the feeling of going to a book store or a sacrament meeting with = something nagging at me--"Oh, there's a book I need to remember to pick up = or an envelope I need to remember to give to someone." I prefer to keep my = mind free to enjoy and daydream. I make a lot of serendipitous discoveries in bookstores (and try to avoid = them because I always spend too much), but if I know in advance I want a = specific title, I always just order it on the spot via Internet so it's = off my plate. (That reminds me, Linda, I need to order YOUR book. I balked = because it wasn't yet on Amazon or BN.) Chris Bigelow * * * * * * Read my novella about Mormon missionaries at http://www1.mightywords.com/as= p/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=3DEB00016373. >>> Linda Adams 07/25 12:22 PM >>> At 01:18 PM 7/24/00, you wrote: >That postage is a bit pricey for >me, however. > >Chris Bigelow Chris, I'm just curious, why do you fuss about postage when you live in=20 Utah and can pick these books up at any LDS bookstore, postage-free? = Have=20 gas prices increased that much in Utah too? ;-) I agree it's a bit high too--but I'm a little more stuck with such = things,=20 living in Missouri. Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com=20 Writing Page: http://members.xoom.com/adamszoo=20 Little Ones Lost: http://home.sprintmail.com/~adamszoo=20 My new book, _Prodigal Journey,_ is now available online! Go to: http://deseretbook.com/products/4066899/index.html=20 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] DUTCHER, _God's Army_ Date: 25 Jul 2000 14:22:00 -0700 Following is the URL for a crazy letter in the Provo Daily Herald [MOD: disapproving of _God's Army_] that highlights the challenge of trying to create real, human art within the Mormon culture. Does someone want to reply--or is it not worth the time and effort? http://www.heraldextra.com/dh/dharc2000.nsf/4b499bca6a38efe4852567a2004c781e/8725683900647b0787256926002c5702?OpenDocument This kind of attitude is so depressing to me--or is it the only safe way to make it back to our Heavenly Father? Chris Bigelow * * * * * * Read my novella about Mormon missionaries at http://www1.mightywords.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=EB00016373. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara@techvoice.com (Barbara R. Hume) Subject: [AML] SALINGER, _Catcher_ (was: Great Authors) Date: 25 Jul 2000 14:45:58 -0700 >I read Catcher in the Rye when I was fifteen. It changed my life. I had never read a book that spoke to me so personally, that seemed so true. I mean, in most ways I'm nothing whatever like Holden Caulfield. But that voice, that amazing voice. I heard it in my head for years. > >Maybe it's a guy thing. My son loves it like I do. My daughter and my wife, not so much. Perhaps it is. I grew up in the South in the fifties. When I read this book as an adult, I was astonished. I had NO IDEA that those sweet boys I went to school with used language like this among themselves. I never heard it. I certainly never heard or saw the f-word. I never even knew the f-word for that other bodily function--the ones people simply pretended never happened. To me, the book is indicative of the fact that males and females are brought up in entirely different cultures. This is true not only in LDS communities, but in--well, probably all human communities. Salinger brought to life a culture that resonates with a segment of the population that includes Eric Samuelson. It made me appreciate the fact that the males I knew edited their speech around me and my girlfriends! barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarieUtah@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] _Pioneer_ Magazine Needs Writer Date: 25 Jul 2000 17:23:36 EDT In a message dated 7/25/00 2:11:49 PM Mountain Daylight Time, ChrisB@enrich.com writes: << However, we want a smaller sidebar piece about health and medical practices during the pioneer era (1847-1860s). We are looking for something about 2,000 words in length and easy, accessible reading; our audience is interested in history but are not necessarily avid historians. Much of the article could be exceprts from people's own stories, journals, etc., or it might be a closer, in-depth look at a specific aspect of medicine or health during that era. >> For someone who might be looking for source material I found a "Medical Notice" by a Dr. Priddy Meeks reprinted from the Jan. 9, 1845 Nauvoo Neighbor in the October 1953 Utah Historical Quarterly. Dr. Meeks's journal, among other articles of pioneer medicine, was published in Volume X (1942) of the UH Q. I hope this helps if someone was interested. =D Shirley Hatfield - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jason Steed" Subject: Re: [AML] Good Writing Date: 25 Jul 2000 14:45:12 PDT >Jason, in a most thought provoking post suggested that > > >I tend to > >disagree with Plato because I think there are ways of knowing, >and bits >of knowledge, that I only obtain through art--knowledge >that comes not by >reason or rational (logos), but through the >mythos and pathos art can >provide. > > >On the other hand, Plato's realm of ideals/ideas is divine in >nature, Eric responded: >What Plato really did was privilege the Logos, suggest that knowledge >obtained through reason was superior to other forms of knowledge. In the >Ion, he argued that the realm of art is divine in its origins, and >therefore suspect; the artist doesn't know where his ideas came from, while >the philosopher does, having reasoned them out. > >The ideal forms of Plato are a particularly interesting idea, I think; this >notion that any actual chair isn't an ideal chair, because it's flawed and >mortal; the only real chair is the ideal form for chairness, of which all >actual chairs are merely imitations. I'm reminded of those odd passages in >Moses 3: 5-7, where the Lord mentions, as though in passing, the idea that >all things were created spiritually before they were created physically. Jason notes: This is what I meant by calling the realm of the ideal "divine"--that Plato privileges it over all others, and that it is characterized by an eternal, spiritual nature as opposed to a mortal, material one. When Plato names the divine as the source of art, I don't think that's his reason for calling it suspect. I think most of the time he feels art is NOT divine in origin--THAT is why it is suspect. He simply argues for the potential of art to be divinely inspired--and I think that he would say that when it IS so inspired, it is good, but that it is rarely so, therefore suspect. Eric continues: >For that reason, I place lessons learned from art at the very top of my own >epistemological hierarchy, just slightly below and to the right hand of >revelation. In fact, I think that great works of art are precisely what >Nephi is talking about in 2 Nephi 29:11. I think he's talking about Hamlet >and A Doll House and Huckleberry Finn every bit as much as he's talking >about the Koran. I agree with this: in this mortal life, as I was saying before, art provides a way of knowing that philosophy cannot. But I don't think we should privilege it over all other ways of knowing. Knowledge is a sacred thing--the one thing we should be after--and we should be after it _by any means possible_. It never ceases to amaze me that artists can be so wary and disdainful of science and philosophy. The reverse is not true with anything approaching the same frequency (in other words, most scientists pursue, simultaneously, the study of art or literature or music, while very VERY few artists pursue the study of, say, physics). To me, EVERY way of knowing ranks "just slightly below and to the right hand of revelation." Revelation is the ONLY way of knowing that deserves privileging. >Jason continued: > > >He may not have the details right part of me does understand >how he >might mistrust art--which can so easily be misinterpreted, >misused, >misguided, etc. (hence, the relegation of it to the realms >of 'conjecture' >rather than 'knowledge'). and Eric continued: >I prefer conjecture to knowledge. I don't think the realms of knowledge >are very large at all. Conjecture is what passes for knowledge for most of >us most of the time. And as long as we acknowledge that what we think we >know we only think we know (conjecture), we're on much safer ground, as it >engenders the pleasing sort of humility necessary to salvation. I know >precious little, and what I do know is mostly tentative. And that's a good >thing. I'm not sure I agree with this, though perhaps you're not saying what you mean, or meaning what you say. We are commanded to seek knowledge, to be like God (and God relies on knowledge, not conjecture). True, the realms of knowledge may not be large (by that I suppose you mean that we don't actually KNOW a whole lot)--but that doesn't mean we should favor NOT knowing over knowing. If you simply mean to suggest that we shouldn't prefer knowledge to conjecture because it can lead to pride, or because our "knowledge" may turn out to be false, etc., then that's fine. I agree. But any true seeker of knowledge will readily abandon a previously held "truth" if a "truer" truth is uncovered. I think the root of the problem here is that you're shifting what was meant by conjecture. You seem to privilege it as a more humble claim than the claim to knowledge--but I would simply call this humility, yet a claim to knowledge nevertheless (i.e. I believe I know this, but recognize that I could be wrong). What I think Plato meant by conjecture is that the claim to knowledge is SO unreliable through art as to make it worthless (i.e. I really have no way of saying that I know this, I'm just guessing). One thing to remember is that, in defending the greatness of art as a way of knowing, we are of course defending GOOD art. And good art (even according to Plato) can be divinely inspired, and thus can offer knowledge far beyond and superior to conjecture. It is the vast majority of "art" (BAD art) that Plato mistrusts, and that can offer little more than conjecture. And in a decree similar to the Word of Wisdom (forgive the analogy), Plato dismisses all art because so much of it can be bad in so many ways for so many people. again, Jason continued: > >Take, for example, the scriptures. They are much, much closer to >a work >of art than a doctrinal, theological or philosophical >treatise; they rely >much more on mythos and pathos than logos, and Eric responded: >Precisely why the scriptures are so infinitely more valuable than any >philosophical treatise ever written. Well, I may have overstated things here, and I think you do as well, in your response. When I said "scriptures," I was referring primarily to the Bible and Book of Mormon--and still but generally to these. Yes, the majority of the OT, and much of the Gospels, and a great deal of the BofM, are built on mythos and pathos. But in fact there are many passages in the Bible and BofM that rely more on logos (much of Paul, for example; and Alma will frequently reason out an argument). And the Doctrine and Covenants is MUCH closer to theological treatise than to epic poem. So, again, I'm not sure you should privilege art so highly over philosophy. Both are indispensible. > > >I think art is the attempt at some form of knowledge, and the >quest for >knowledge is always necessary and valuable; thus art >is necessary and >valuable, especially as a right-brained, mythical >alternative to >left-brained reason. > >As long as the quest remains a quest, sure. As long as certainty continues >to elude us, sure. I don't know what the right brain/left brain stuff has >to do with this (I tend to find those studies pretty suspect). I do trust >a half-understood, half-remembered myth far more than the most soundly >grounded scientific fact, and infinitely more than the most exquisitely >reasoned syllogism. Again, this kind of privileging is limiting, in my opinion. Why can't science or philosophy offer you anything? We're supposed to learn of all things pertaining to the kingdom of God--don't physics, anthropology, philosophy, biology, mathematics, as well as aesthetics and art, pertain to that kingdom? This is, it occurs to me, very similar to the genre debate. How can any of us privilege one genre over another? None is inherently superior to another--each is merely a different way or mode of writing (or knowing). Each has its strengths and weaknesses. I tend to read more of one genre than another because it suits me--I understand it better. But wouldn't I be edified by the study of others? Should I dismiss them or mistrust them because they aren't "my" genre? No. Nor should we mistrust science and philosophy because they aren't art (or vice versa). We can be edified by them all, in different ways. > > >But I do wonder how necessary art will be after this life. Is it > >possible that the Mormon version of Plato's Republic is the > >Millenium? (Instead of an ideal philosophical state with a > >philosopher-ruler, we'll have a theocracy--which seems a fair >enough >parallel.) > >Right now, from my admittedly limited, non-Millennial point of view, I'd >say that if there isn't any art then, I don't want any part of it. I think >it's going to be a haven for artists. I didn't mean to suggest that there wouldn't be art. Plato banished art from his republic, but I wasn't suggesting that parallel with the millenium. I simply meant that Plato envisioned an ideal state, as does Mormonism. > > >And is it possible that in that state, wherein we will have > >direct access to the divine, to true and pure knowledge, through >what I >can only presume will be daily direct revelation--is it >possible that in >that state, the ambiguity and uncertainty of art will >not only be no >longer necessary, but no longer desirable? (Plato >allowed poets into his >ideal > >state, but only to sing praises to the state, etc.--can we imagine > >anything other than hymns of praise in the presence of Deity?) > >What a frightening, unendurable thought. For me, the single greatest idea >of the Restored Gospel, is the idea of a dynamic, as opposed to a static >heaven. An eternity where we sing hymns of praise to the Almighty as our >only form of artistic expression is, very simply, hell. Heaven is a realm >where we continually learn and grow and develop and serve. And what will >we learn? How to create. What is God's art form? As Marvin Payne so >memorably put it a couple of years ago, we're living in it. Yes. Again, I think you misunderstood me, and then you went on to shift the meaning of words I was using. I wasn't suggesting a static heaven--in fact, I was saying just the opposite. There will be constant learning and growth--eternal progression. And nowhere did I say that hymns of praise would be our ONLY form of artistic expression. But actually, Plato saw the artist as "lower" in rank than the philosopher; might we draw a parallel to the Mormon concept of God and the angels? According to the D&C, there will be those who are consigned to a fairly static eternity--they will progress only so far, and there remain. This is the Mormon form of damnation, and it exists at every level save the highest degree of the celestial kingdom. Can't we say that, for those who fail to achieve this highest (and ideal) state, they will be in hell, unable to "create"--their only available expression being to serve and praise God? Sounds like Plato's poets to me. Those who do achieve the highest state will be able to continue to create, but here I think you're shifting the meaning of "art." Yes, we talk of the world and God's creations as His "art"--but this is metaphorical, no? Isn't art, _by definition_, an imitation of a reality (and this is not just Plato's definition)? When I suggested the possibility (and that's all I'm doing--I'm just speculating here) that art might be unnecessary in the next life, specifically in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, it was because I cannot conceive of a need for artistic creation when ACTUAL creation is possible. The artist is a god-wannabe; to aspire to art is to aspire to godhood, to aspire to creation. But no ACTUAL world is created, only an artistic (i.e. imitative) one. Again, that has all the value in the world, in this life. But what value can it have, I wonder, in a life where ACTUAL creation is sought? Art is absolutely necessary as a way of knowing NOW; but in that Ideal state, when one can always have revelation to outweigh all other ways of knowing, what might be the necessity of art? Just thinking... Jason ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Needle Subject: Re: [AML] (Curiouser & Curiouser) Confessions of a Former Date: 25 Jul 2000 15:29:08 -0700 Friends, my friend John Tvedtnes at FARMS sent this to me and asked me to send it along to you. I had forwarded a copy of Ed Snow's uproarious post, which John thought was hilarious, but he did take issue with one paragraph. Thanks > >Jeff, > >Since you are a member of the AML list, would you please post the following >for me: > > >In his AML message, Edgar C. Snow wrote: >>F.A.R.M.S. stands for the Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon >Studies, a Mormon apologetics think-tank that started as a non-profit and >is now essentially a research arm of BYU. > >Evidently Snow didn't work for FARMS long enough to know what it really is. > FARMS (no dots, please) is not an "apologetics think-tank." There is no >tank in which to place the thinkers, and our goal is not apologetics. To >be sure, there is an apologetic element to some of the reviews of >anti-Mormon books published in the FARMS Review of Books, but that's hardly >all we do here. Moreover, most of what we publish is written by people who >do NOT work for FARMS, but are employed elsewhere, often in academic >settings. Most of my own writings published by FARMS were actually written >long before I came to work here, and FARMS had been publishing my materials >for years before they offered me a job. My job is essentially managerial, >and almost everything I write for FARMS now is done on my own time. Our >research department consists of a handful of people, only one of whom (a >research assistant) is devoted full-time to doing actual research. >Scholars who have projects that they think might interest FARMS contact us >with their manuscripts or with their proposals. In a very real sense, that >makes us a clearinghouse for scholarly research and a publisher, but >certainly not a think tank. The "apologetics" and "think tank" terminology >has been showing up in anti-Mormon sources critical of FARMS and is used by >them to play down the importance of the work we do here. I presume that >Snow picked the terms up from those sources. > >I also don't think it accurate to call us a "research arm" for BYU. We >continue to operate as we did before the BYU merger. BYU has assigned us >no research projects and we do not anticipate that they will ever do so. >Even if they did, we don't have the staff to handle it. Edgar Snow really >needs to check in with us from time to time in order to keep current. >1981-84, when he worked for FARMS, was a very long time ago. It even >predates my involvement in publishing with FARMS by half a decade and my >employment with FARMS by more than a decade. > > >John Tvedtnes > > --------------- Jeff Needle jeff.needle@general.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "R.W. Rasband" Subject: [AML] SALINGER, _Catcher_ (was: Great Authors) Date: 26 Jul 2000 00:18:56 GMT I agree. Salinger is a uniquely *spiritual* author, one whose misfit characters really belong to another world, not this one (that's why they can be so annoying at times.) For a really good consideration of Salinger, see Ron Rosenbaum's new book, "The Secret Parts of Fortune." Rosenbaum is the author of "Explaining Hitler." This is a thick collection of 30 years of his journalism--he has devoted his career to exploring the hidden (can we say Gnostic?) parts of popular culture. His long essay on Salinger is the best thing I've ever read about that author. It explains his neo-Buddhist spiritual system so as to make his long silence understandable. I can't recommend this book strongly enough. R.W. Rasband Heber City. UT rrasband@hotmail.com >From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" >Reply-To: aml-list@lists.xmission.com >To: aml-list@lists.xmission.com >Subject: [AML] Re: Great Authors >Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 12:53:31 -0600 > >I read Catcher in the Rye when I was fifteen. It changed my life. I had >never read a book that spoke to me so personally, that seemed so true. I >mean, in most ways I'm nothing whatever like Holden Caulfield. But that >voice, that amazing voice. I heard it in my head for years. > >Maybe it's a guy thing. My son loves it like I do. My daughter and my >wife, not so much. > >Eric Samuelsen > > > > > > >- >AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature >http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] Volunteers Needed for Envelope Orgy Date: 25 Jul 2000 21:09:41 EDT Christopher Bigelow: [MOD: I'm not even touching that subject line...] We need some help to label, stuff, and sort about 1,200 envelopes with flyers. Let us know ASAP if you're a firm volunteer, because if we don't get enough, we need to pursue other avenues (kidnapping BYU students for our labor camp, for instance). _______________ Is this one of those deals where you have to pay $29.95 for the instructions? And do we get the book that is the sequel to the one about the tunnels under temple square? Larry Jackson ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN Darryl Zanuck classic "Brigham Young" to be screened July Date: 25 Jul 2000 21:09:41 EDT BYU Press Release 13Jul00 D3 [From Mormon-News] Darryl Zanuck classic "Brigham Young" to be screened July 27 PROVO, UTAH -- The L. Tom Perry Special Collections Library at the Harold B. Lee Library at Brigham Young University will present the historic 20th Century-Fox 1940 motion picture "Brigham Young" in the Lee Library Auditorium on Thursday, July 27, at 7 p.m. Admission is free. No person under the age of eight will be admitted, and no food or drink is permitted in the auditorium. "'Brigham Young' is not only historic in its theme of religious intolerance, but also in its significance to Utahns and Mormons in the late 1930s," said James D'Arc, motion picture archives curator. An exhibit of materials containing publicity material, behind-the-scenes photographs, documents, scripts and premiere programs connected with the 1940 film will be displayed in Special Collections area during the months of July and August. The exhibition, "Darryl F. Zanuck's 'Brigham Young'" is open Monday through Friday from 8 a.m. until 5 p.m. with extended viewing hours on Wednesday until 9 p.m. The exhibition is also open on Saturdays from 10 a.m. until 5 p.m. The film--starring Tyrone Power, Linda Darnell and Dean Jagger--dramatizes the epic trek of the Mormons from Illinois to the Salt Lake Valley in 1846-47. "The film represented a marked departure from the negative portrayal of Mormons in movies prior to 1940," D'Arc said. "In 'Brigham Young' Mormons are depicted as hardworking people who are victims of injustice and intolerance by their neighbors." "The release of the film, coinciding with reports of religious persecution in Nazi Germany, helped usher in a new era of tolerance in America for the Mormon Church." Darryl F. Zanuck, production chief at 20th Century-Fox, referred to the film as "the great American motion picture." He worked closely with officials from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the production of the expensive Hollywood film. Heber J. Grant, president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints at the time of the film's production, and the presidency of the LDS Church were invited to a screening of the film several weeks prior to release. President Grant emerged from the theater to tell waiting reporters, "I endorse it with all my heart and have no suggestions to make for any changes. This is one of the greatest days of my life." Nationwide reviews were nearly unanimous in praise of the film. Life Magazine featured "Brigham Young" in a multi-page spread as its "movie of the week." Prior to the film, a rare Fox Movietone newsreel covering the Salt Lake City premiere of "Brigham Young" will be shown. - ### - Darryl Zanuck classic "Brigham Young" to be screened July 27 BYU Press Release 13Jul00 D3 >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Perry Subject: [AML] FCMA 2000 Pearl Awards Broadcast over Internet Date: 25 Jul 2000 19:26:40 -0600 Listers, Local arts news which is expanding beyond a local event. The FCMA (Faith-Centered Music Association) is holding the 2000 Pearl Awards for excellence in recorded music this Thursday at 7:00 pm at the McKay Events Center on the UVSC campus in Orem. Cost $12, $8 for students. Call 1-800-888-TIXX or visit the McKay Events Center ticket office. The awards will be broadcast on locally on KJZZ-TV at 6 pm. on August 20th, BUT! Something new and cool is that they will be broadcast live via the Internet for the first time on LDSworld.com. If someone has time and interest to check it out, let me know how it came across on the small(er/est) screen. Steve Perry - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ViKimball@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] _Pioneer_ Magazine Needs Writer Date: 25 Jul 2000 21:37:11 EDT In a message dated 7/25/00 5:10:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time, MarieUtah@aol.com writes: << For someone who might be looking for source material I found a "Medical Notice" by a Dr. Priddy Meeks reprinted from the Jan. 9, 1845 Nauvoo Neighbor in the October 1953 Utah Historical Quarterly. Dr. Meeks's journal, among other articles of pioneer medicine, was published in Volume X (1942) of the UH Q. I hope this helps if someone was interested. =D >> Priddy Meeks was an herbal doctor and I don't know why he would have a Dr. in front of his name unless it was honorary. All early Mormon "doctors" had no real medical training except I believe Willard Richards had a little. Violet Kimball - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cathy Wilson" Subject: Re: [AML] The Onion Skewers Mormons Date: 25 Jul 2000 20:28:31 -0600 >Okay. I'm curious. You experienced both the simple and the essential in the polygamist colony? Cathy, can you elaborate please? Marilyn Brown :). My book is called _Simple and Essential, A Step-By-Step Guide to Natural Healing with Essential Oils_. It was published by Neways International and I occasionally travel with someone in the company to (a) promote the book and (b) help demo and hopefully promote their line of essential oils (this works because I do bodywork and can use the oils on people in the sessions). Neways was asked to come to Colorado City--Neways is MLM so they went to start the business there. So I went along on this trip. I found the experience difficult in many ways. The whole feeling around the area seemed heavy and almost inescapable. It was so refreshing to drive over to Hurricane and see "normal" people :). The polygamists seem like such well-intentioned folks, so clean and pleasant. Yet the result of their lifestyle seemed appalling to me--kids with extremely limited social skills and intellectual horizons--women with a gazillion kids who were totally exhausted--definitely an ingrown-ness in the whole social interaction. A weird place for MLM--:). The Onion piece felt to me somewhat like what I experienced there in Colorado City. Cathy Cathy (Gileadi) Wilson Editing Etc. 15 East 600 North Price UT 84501 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: Re: [AML] DUTCHER, _God's Army_ Date: 25 Jul 2000 22:24:57 -0700 >Following is the URL for a crazy letter in the Provo Daily Herald >[MOD: disapproving of _God's Army_] that highlights the challenge of >trying to create real, human art within the Mormon culture. Does >someone want to reply--or is it not >worth the time and effort? > >http://www.heraldextra.com/dh/dharc2000.nsf/4b499bca6a38efe4852567a2004c781e/8725683900647b0787256926002c5702?OpenDocument > >This kind of attitude is so depressing to me--or is it the only safe >way to make it back to our >Heavenly Father? > What depresses me, as an employee of The Daily Herald, is that the URL to find one simple letter to the editor is three miles long. And if you're looking for something in the archives, forget it...! The same letter was printed in the Deseret News, and someone responded to it there, saying basically the same things we all would say: 1) lighten up. 2) The movie IS an accurate representation of what every-day missionary life is like, and missionaries actually do play jokes, slack off, and die of cancer (OK, not the last one, but you know what I mean). I would bet the writer of the letter did not serve a mission. Eric D. Snider -- *************************************************** Eric D. Snider www.ericdsnider.com "Filling all your Eric D. Snider needs since 1974." - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] DUTCHER, _God's Army_ Date: 26 Jul 2000 00:36:22 -0600 Christopher Bigelow wrote: > This kind of attitude is so depressing to me--or is it the only safe way to make it back to our > Heavenly Father? If that's the type of people I'll be living with in the celestial kingdom, perhaps I'll cancel my reservation. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sharlee Glenn" Subject: [AML] Erica GLENN, _Dancing Shoes_ at Villa in Springville Date: 26 Jul 2000 06:34:53 -0600 For those of you in the area, _Dancing Shoes_, the full-length musical written by my then 12 (now 14) year-old daughter, Erica, will open this Thursday evening at 7:30 at the Villa Playhouse Theatre in Springville, Utah. It will also play on Friday (28th), Saturday (29th), and Monday (31st). For more information, call the theater at (801) 489-3088. Bill and Marilyn Brown have been amazingly supportive and encouraging throughout the whole process from dream to stage. Erica's greatest desire is to someday be able to do for another young, budding talent what the Brown's have done for her. It's going to be a fun family show--one that will especially appeal to young girls who are interested in the performing arts. Hope to see some of you there! (By the way, there was an article on the show in Sunday's _Deseret News_. You can read it at www.desnews.com/cgi-bin/libstory_reg?dn00&0007230063. Also, Erica will be appearing live on Good Morning Utah! (Ch. 4) Thursday morning at 6:25, if any of you are up that early. :-) Thanks, Sharlee Glenn glennsj@inet-1.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dorothy Peterson" Subject: Re: [AML] _Pioneer_ Magazine Needs Writer Date: 27 Jul 2000 07:42:24 -0700 I've sent a message in response to this request for a writer although I'm not sure whether I'm really interested or not. But I would like to nail down the information you've noted below just in case. Can you send me a copy? Or can you give me specific details of its whereabouts? Thanks, Dorothy Peterson 714 992 6382 dorothy@lds-index.org ____________ > > For someone who might be looking for source material I found a "Medical > Notice" by a Dr. Priddy Meeks reprinted from the Jan. 9, 1845 Nauvoo Neighbor > in the October 1953 Utah Historical Quarterly. Dr. Meeks's journal, among > other articles of pioneer medicine, was published in Volume X (1942) of the UH > Q. I hope this helps if someone was interested. =D > > Shirley Hatfield - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kathleen Woodbury Subject: Re: [AML] BYU Children's Writing Conference Date: 26 Jul 2000 10:16:17 -0600 At 11:09 AM 7/22/00 -0700, Beth Hatch wrote: >I would love to hear as many details as possible about BYU's children's >writing conference from anyone who was there. You could send them to my >private email address, if you'd like. Thanks! > >- > >[MOD: This would be appropriate for sending out over the entire List.] Been meaning to do this, but settling back into the home routine got in the way. I attended the conference (and I looked for you, Tracie, but never saw your name on one of the badges). We were divided up into groups according to what we had told them we were interested in when we signed up--picture books, middle grade readers, young adult books, nonfiction. There were three group in picture books and two each for the other categories, I believe. The groups spent each morning together with the professional writer assigned to them. We read from our works in progress and commented on each others' work. We had writing exercises which we were supposed to apply to our works in progress if possible. We were visited by one of the two professional editors they brought in and given time to ask questions. A lot of the stuff we heard in our morning sessions I already knew, but there were suggestions specific to my work in progress that made the sessions worthwhile to me. We broke for lunch and then came back for a couple of lecture/question-and-answer sessions in the afternoon (there were three to choose from each hour, and the presenters were scheduled for more than one day, so it was possible to attend almost everything). These were very useful because several of the authors talked to us about their own writing processes. We had a general meeting after that in which the professional editors spoke to us on two of the days, and we were able to ask more questions. (One particular advantage to attending a conference like this, with a professional editor as a speaker, is that you can skip the slush pile when submitting to that editor by mentioning in the cover letter that you attended that conference and met the editor.) Then we broke for dinner and lab time (the computer lab was available to us until late in the evening as well). After dinner we were able to attend an hour of readings by the presenters, and an hour of open-mike reading by the students. The presenters were Rick Walton, Chris Crowe, John Bennion, Carol Lynch Williams, Mike Tunnell, Dean Hughes, Louise Plummer, Gloria Skurzynski, Laura Torres, and John H. Ritter. (Laura also served as one of the professional editors--the other was Francoise Bui from Random House/Bantam-Doubleday-Dell.) We didn't have readings on the last day, but we had a banquet and a booksigning. They are planning for next year already. It's seems an expensive conference, but the workshop aspect makes it more than a conference, and I really think it was worth the expense. Kathleen Dalton-Woodbury workshop@burgoyne.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Darvell" Subject: [AML] ADAMS, _Prodigal Journey_ Date: 26 Jul 2000 13:05:03 -0500 Last nite I picked up Linda's novel at my local (small) Deseret Book store here in Las Vegas. Boy, is it THICK! ;) I'm very much looking forward to reading it. My last Cornerstone novel, _Disoriented_, was a rewarding read, so I expect this one to be, too. So it _is_ finally out and beginning to filter out to the stores, in case Linda and Richard and wondering (tho you probably already know). Darvell Hunt Las Vegas, NV _____________________________________________ Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! http://www.MyOwnEmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: [AML] Re: Genre Date: 26 Jul 2000 11:55:59 -0600 (MDT) The idea that all Science Fiction and Fantasy is is allegory is one that I feel misses the mark. There are many misconceptions about SF/F, even among the devotees. Another prevelant misconception is that SF is suppossed to predict the future. I tend to agree with SF Writer J. Gregory Keyes,who, in his book "Dark Genesis", includes this statement "The job of SF is not to predict the future, but to imagine it." SF/F is more of a What if? scenario rather than an allegorical or predictive one. One recent example that often annoys me is the constant reference to the X-Men by various movie reviewers (who just don't get it) as "A thinly veiled allegory about racism." While many who read X-Men, and many who enjoy the movie will probably see it that way, I fell they are dead wrong. X-Men is about prejudice, not racism. Mutants are not another race. They cut across racial and national boudaries. Mutants do not nessecarily produce other Mutants. The closest real world parallel would be akin to prejudice against left-handers or hemophiliacs (although at a much stronger level). With the exception of teenage boy fantasy comics like "Lady Death" or "Vampirella" most comic books actually try to deal with the real world, albeit one with super powered individuals. When Comic books wish to deal with racism, sexism, classism or other forms of specialized prejudice, they comment on it directly. X-men has had storylines about racism, and while they may draw parallels between the situation with Blacks in the south, or the Holocaust and mutants, it is never a direct parallel. Mutants are on the recieving end of prejudice, but the comic book is focused more on prejudice in general, rather than attempting to draw a direct allegorical parallel with racism in particular. The most famous example of comic books dealing with real world issues like racism comes from the exploits of Green Lantern. In one issue, after saving some alien race from destruction, Hal Jordan (the Green Lantern) is confronted by a Black Man who asks "Why do you help the blue man and the green man and yet you have done nothing for the Black man?" The stunned Lantern has nothing to say in reply. Another character, The Falcon is a black man who comes from the ghetto and spends most of his time working in the inner city dealing with racism and attempting to help out kids at risk. These comics do not need to use allegorical approaches to deal with real world issues. When they wish to comment on AIDS, they have a storyline about a character with AIDS (as in an Alpha Flight storyline back in the late 80s) rather than invent some crazy disease to parallel it. Now I will move away from comci books and back to SF/F in general. When I was a child I did not get the allegory in Narnia. As I child, I beleived magic was everywhere. Fairy tales seemed real and possible. Though I never beleived in Santa Claus, or the Tooth fairy, there was Christ and Joseph Smith and the angel Moroni, and thery sure seemed magical enough. Now that I'm an adult, I may not see things as so magical, but as Mormons we tend to believe in things that would generally be classified as fantasy. That's one theory I have as to why Fantasy literature is more popular at BYU than one would suspect. Mormons tend not to lose that magiacal/realistic view of the world. --Ivan Wolfe - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rex Goode" Subject: Re: [AML] DUTCHER, _God's Army_ Date: 26 Jul 2000 14:18:47 EDT Author, Colleen Bernhard, of _He Delivered My Soul From Bondage_, speaking at a conference of Evergreen International in Salt Lake City a few years ago, remarked, "The first commandment of the Mormon culture, not to be confused with Mormon doctrine, is, 'Thou shalt avoid all appearance of evil.'" It isn't surprising to me at all that an op-ed piece in a newspaper in a predominantly LDS community would condemn a movie like DUTCHER's _God's Army_. Bernhard's statement above speaks to a widespread sentiment that Mormon art ought to portray Mormon people as well above the fray of dysfunctional modern life. This criticism of the film is without any real substance, the objection being that it doesn't paint a pretty picture. It may not be likely that any particular missionary would watch the film and exclaim, "My mission was exactly like that!" On the other hand, many missionaries might be able to pick out enough resonating experiences from the film to help him wax nostalgic. I haven't been on a mission and it certainly resonated with me. I'm intimately familiar with dysfunctionality among Mormon families. For Elder Allen to be entering the mission field with his pedophile father in prison and his mother disenfranchised from the Church doesn't seem the least far-fetched, only easy to deny by those who think that all missionaries come from intact family units with a stalwart priesthood father and a bread-baking, flip-haired mother. Some of that viewer's comments could also be said about Ben Parkinson's _Into the Field_. Therein is portrayed a mission where the Elders and sisters screw up and screw around, where they fight and lose against the temptation to be lazy and unproductive. I had an interesting experience this last weekend. Under direction of the area presidency in the area where I live, LDS Family Services is establishing a support group for men who struggle with issues of same-sex attraction. A recently returned missionary couple who had been on a proselyting mission to the midwest, have been asked to serve as advisors to the group. I was called in to help begin the training of this couple in these issues. As I sat there in the meeting, I sensed a lot of discomfort in this couple. I imagined them on their mission, pondering what service the Lord might have in store for them when they returned--temple workers maybe, family history specialists, or perhaps stake leadership responsibilities. I doubt they thought they'd be called upon to deal with family dysfuntion, people under disciplinary restraints, and sitting in meetings with men pouring their hearts out and being accountable for often immoral behavior. Though they seemed in a bit of shock, to their credit, they asked questions and were making the effort to learn. Inherent in attitudes of denial is the danger of never finding solutions to the problems that we face, problems that Mormons face in relative proportions to non-Mormons. Should the prostitutes in Dutcher's movie have been wearing ankle-length skirts and puffy shoulders? Perhaps they shouldn't have been there at all. Maybe, when a pair of Elders turn a corner on an urban street, all vice disappears into the ether until they turn onto another street. I've known more than one former prostitute convert to the Church. Learning to dress with more modesty was a challenge. It may be disheartening to us, but I see this first commandment in action, even as far away from the center of the Church as Ohio, where I lived for four years. Mormon art can be involved in the dispelling of these attitudes like no other force. Though there were probably many who saw _God's Army_ that would agree with Sister Maxwell, I think most patrons truly enjoyed it. I don't think we should be discouraged by these reactions. If nothing else, the op-ed piece is dialogue and exposure. No such thing as bad press. Only when both sides of a controversy are aired can we overcome the prejudices that keep us closed. Rex Goode ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: RE: [AML] BYU Children's Writing Conference Date: 26 Jul 2000 15:31:18 -0400 The disadvantages of hating name tags-I just hooked my onto my dayplanner. Which group did you work with? I'd really like to hear about some other attendees' experiences. Lisa Peck was there as well, and I've talked with her a little. A lot of what we went over were things I knew. I did wish that our group (picture books) had done a lot less talking and a lot more working on our writing. I'm glad we had the opportunity to hear from pretty much all the presenters-different perspectives and ways of working and all that. I especially enjoyed John Ritter. I'll try to be a little more detailed when I have a little more time. I know Beth was interested in picture books-or I can e-mail her privately. Tracie - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] Onion on Harry Potter and Satanism Date: 26 Jul 2000 13:43:41 -0700 Hurray, it's Wednesday again, and that means Onion day. Since we've been talking about both the Onion and Harry Potter, I thought I'd pass on the URL for another extremely funny Onion spoof titled "_Harry Potter_ Books Spark Rise in Satanism Among Children." http://theonion.com/onion3625/harry_potter.html Enjoy! * * * * * * Read my novella about Mormon missionaries at http://www1.mightywords.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=EB00016373. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Neal Kramer Subject: Re: [AML] DUTCHER, _God's Army_ Date: 26 Jul 2000 14:26:54 -0600 I'm replying to Eric Snider: > >The same letter was printed in the Deseret News, and someone >responded to it there, saying basically the same things we all would >say: 1) lighten up. 2) The movie IS an accurate representation of >what every-day missionary life is like, and missionaries actually do >play jokes, slack off, and die of cancer (OK, not the last one, but >you know what I mean). I would bet the writer of the letter did not >serve a mission. > Missionaries even die of cancer. A fine Elder in my mission experienced strange fluctuations of weight and appetite during his mission. He consulted a number of physicians who could find nothing wrong. He returned home to discover testicular cancer had metastasized and spread throughout his body. He died a month later. Neal Kramer - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sharlee Glenn" (by way of Jonathan Langford ) Subject: [AML] Erica GLENN, _Dancing Shoes_ (Deseret News) Date: 26 Jul 2000 16:09:11 -0500 14-year-old puts on her 'Dancing Shoes' Girl has written, scored and stars in her first musical By Christi C. Babbit Deseret News staff writer SPRINGVILLE -- Erica Glenn has written songs and plays, starred in various shows and is about to see her first full-length musical staged -- all by age 14. Rehearsals began July 5 for "Dancing Shoes" in preparation for the musical's opening July 27 at the Villa Playhouse Theatre in Springville. The script and music have been written by Erica, with input and guidance from Villa owners, Bill and Marilyn Brown, and others. "I've always loved writing plays," Erica said. The young Pleasant Grove resident hasn't been far from the theater since being cast in her first show at age 7. She won major roles in shows such as "Pollyanna" and "The Sound of Music." A talented pianist and singer, Erica started composing her own music in the second grade and has entered her songs in the PTA Reflections contest every year since then, having won on the state level. In fifth grade, she completed her first three-act show, called "Jennifer," which centered around an 11-year-old girl. "As I got older, I realized there weren't that many parts for girls ages 12 to 14," Erica said. Her mother then issued a challenge: Why not write one of your own? Erica decided to create a musical based on one of her favorite books: "Dancing Shoes" by Noel Streatfeild. She began the process in sixth grade; this fall, she will enter ninth grade at Pleasant Grove Junior High School. "I've probably done about 40 revisions since the first," Erica said. "We're still making changes." Some songs were written and then thrown out in favor of new ones. "Dancing Shoes" takes place in England in the 1940s and revolves around two orphaned sisters living with an aunt who owns a dancing school. Rachel, one of the sisters, has a hard time finding her niche in the school and family, as she is not a good dancer. Erica obtained permission from the estate of Noel Streatfeild to produce the show. The cast list comprises seven adult roles and 11 youth roles, the latter are mostly for girls around Erica's age. The show was cast earlier this summer, with actors instructed to come back several weeks later with their lines learned. In addition to writing the show, Erica has been cast to play the lead role of Rachel. "I was very happy. I really, really, really wanted to be Rachel," Erica said. "I've always put myself in her place when I've read the book." Directing the show is Anna Murdock, who has years of experience producing children's theater. Cast members learned their songs using printed sheet music arranged on computer by Erica. Using a synthesizer, the playwright has orchestrated her songs as well. A total of 42 tracks, including music for scene changes and background music, will be transferred to compact disc for use in the show. Erica's musical began its journey to the stage after her mother, Sharlee Erica, mentioned the show to Marilyn Brown. Marilyn and her husband, Bill Brown, are founders and co-managing directors of the non-profit Villa Institute for the Performing Arts, which runs the Villa Playhouse Theatre in Springville and the Villa's new "black box" space across the street, the Little Brown Theatre. The Browns read the script last summer and sent it to others for input, then returned it to Erica with suggestions for improvement. Later that year, the Browns decided to stage the show. "One of our biggest goals in life is to encourage young talent," Marilyn Brown said, "so this fit nicely into that category." "Dancing Shoes" is filling the slot usually reserved for the Villa's annual summer youth workshop. To ensure the show was filled with the best talent available, cast members are not paying tuition; the Browns are seeking donations to help cover production costs. Seeing her creation come to life on the stage is a little amazing to Erica. "Still I can't quite believe it," she said. "It gives me little thrills to see people singing my songs." The opportunity will be repeated this fall as Valley Center Playhouse in Lindon plans to produce "Dancing Shoes" in October, Erica said. Other future plans are varied for Erica, but most center around music and theater. "I want to get a play produced on Broadway, and I want to get 'Dancing Shoes' published," she said. She also wants to be a piano teacher -- she currently has five students -- as well as write more plays, have a family and own her own theater. "Dancing Shoes" will play at 7:30 p.m. July 27-29 and 31 in the Villa Playhouse Theatre, 254 S. Main, Springville. Tickets are $5. For more information, call 801-489-3088. =A9 2000 Deseret News Publishing Co. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Nelwyn Thurman" Subject: Re: [AML] _Pioneer_ Magazine Needs Writer Date: 26 Jul 2000 15:22:06 -0500 I heard somewhere that one of Brigham Young's wives was sent back east to attend medical school. Was this just a story going around? Or is it really true? Nelwyn - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] Two Queries Date: 26 Jul 2000 15:01:01 -0700 Two queries: 1) Does anyone have old copies of the Salt Lake Observer, the short-lived newspaper that was published not long ago? I'm looking for a review of _Dancing Naked_ by Paul Swenson that ran in the Observer. Or maybe you know of an online database of Observer articles or have Paul Swenson's e-mail. 2) In the new, bright-orange _Dialogue_ which was edited by the AML, a reference is given at the bottom of page 7 for an essay by John Redelf titled "Who are the Signaturi?" However, the URL given didn't work. Does anyone have a better reference or the full text they could e-mail me? Thanks, Chris Bigelow, chrisb@enrich.com * * * * * * Read my novella about Mormon missionaries at http://www1.mightywords.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=EB00016373. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kathleen Woodbury Subject: RE: [AML] BYU Children's Writing Conference Date: 26 Jul 2000 15:32:01 -0600 At 03:31 PM 7/26/00 -0400, Tracie Laulusa wrote: >Which group did you work with? I'd really like to hear about some other >attendees' experiences. Lisa Peck was there as well, and I've talked with >her a little. I was in a middle-grade reader group, though we did some young adult as well. >A lot of what we went over were things I knew. I did wish that our group >(picture books) had done a lot less talking and a lot more working on our >writing. I'm glad we had the opportunity to hear from pretty much all the >presenters-different perspectives and ways of working and all that. I >especially enjoyed John Ritter. It was probably hard for the teachers to know what to spend time on and what to skip over. There were people who didn't know anything about writing at all, and really needed to go over the basic stuff. It would be nice if there could be a workshop for more advanced writers sometime.... Dean Hughes presentation on how he develops an idea was probably the most useful for me. I do that in a more or less haphazard way and I felt inspired to be more systematic about it, as he is. Might get me writing more stuff, for one thing. >I'll try to be a little more detailed when I have a little more time. I >know Beth was interested in picture books-or I can e-mail her privately. I'd be interested in hearing more about picture books, so don't email her privately. Share! Kathleen Dalton-Woodbury workshop@burgoyne.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: [AML] Margaret YOUNG, _I Am Jane_ (Review) Date: 26 Jul 2000 15:19:05 -0700 What the Inner Soul is Saying Review of Margaret Young's _I Am Jane_ "Last but not least, in our services anybody can sing, and there are very few if any people that sing of a caliber of a Katie Jackson. Most people can't sing a lick. Contrary--I mean, they're really bad singers, and they have bad timing, to debunk the stereotype about African American people. And, what we have to do as musicians is be able to pick up on what they're singing and bring that spirit that they're trying to bring out and bring that expression out, and help the service reach that level of being able to express what their inner soul is saying." --Chuck Campbell, sacred steel guitar player in the House of God African American Holiness Pentecostal Keith Dominion, speaking with Renee Montagne Friday, May 5th 2000 on NPR's All Things Considered, after Arhoolie records released its album _Sacred Steel_. Before that, sacred steel, "a way of leading and luring worshipers to the spirit," was rarely heard outside the House of God, Keith and Jewel Dominions. (Part 1 of the interview was Thursday, May 4) A ward choir director, one of the several I sang under in Seattle, once said I had an unparalleled ability to harmonize, which meant I would match any note anyone in the choir was singing, except the note I was supposed to be singing from the sheet music. As one who loves to sing, has a good voice, but doesn't sing well (if I want to know what it feels like to be illiterate I go to choir practice, usually late) it was deeply comforting to hear Chuck Campbell say that the Lord wants to hear from every voice and raised up a musical tradition to help each sorry voice raise itself to depths of great contrition and grand praise, a tradition of guitar "trying to mimic the human voice and try to bring it to another level." I thought about this when we went down to the Villa Theater July 10 to see Margaret Young's _I Am Jane_. I was moved when the cast came onstage through the audience, clapping and singing "Amen." I have loved that song since I heard Sidney Poitier sing it in _The Lilies of the Field_ decades ago. Ten or so years after I first saw _Lilies of the Field_ Clayne Robison introduced me to Jester Hairston's music ("Elijah rock, shout, shout, / Elijah rock, coming up Lord") in a multi-disciplinary class. A year or two later Hairston, an old man, came to BYU with his choir and during the intermission he sat on the edge of the DeJong stage talking with the audience about the early days of his marriage and other things. I loved his generosity, spending his break time with us. Then I went off to graduate school, and a few years later saw Hairston, older still, playing Rolley the deacon on a sitcom about the Black Church, _Amen!_ Very nice comic timing, and I loved the Christmas episode where each cast member was presenting a gift. His was directing a choir. Then we came back to Utah and a still older Jester Hairston was performing in the Tabernacle, and he sang "Amen," which, he told us, he had written for, and sung in, _Lilies of the Field_. He explained how the song follows events in Jesus's life, for example, "‘Preaching in the temple.' Now you don't sing Amen there because that's disputation." You sing it after the resurrection, drawing out the A. "A-Amen, Amen, Amen." What a beautiful word--_Truth_--to hear a cast sing as they come onstage. I went to hear that singing, to hear their story. For you see, I carry a wound. I must have been in kindergarten in November 1963, I had turned five that summer, and I remember the feeling of helplessness when I heard that President Kennedy had been shot, the same feeling I felt 5 years later--still in elementary school--when I heard Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King had been shot. By that time I had come to see something very confusing in my country. I had teachers who taught me about the evils of slavery and the brave people who fought for civil rights--and other people who told me Martin Luther King, and those like him, were communists. And I remember very clearly Black Panther comments about killing pigs and a news report of a Black Panther breakfast where comic books were handed out with pictures of children killing pigs in cops' clothes. I came to a conclusion that blacks hated whites--and with good reason, considering how whites had oppressed blacks for centuries. Of course it was not true that blacks hated whites, just like the rumors about the blacks coming to SLC to march on general conference and start a race riot were not true. But imagine yourself a brilliant child with a deep sensitivity to language, but not enough rhetorical skills to understand the difference between speechifying and the language people use to say their truths. How would such a child understand the angry words from so many sources? There was language of hate all around me, deeply angry language, like Eldridge Cleaver's review I came on years later of _The Wretched of the Earth_, where Cleaver said Frantz Fanon had written the book to legitimate the murderous rage oppressed people develop for their oppressors. And I found many years later, reading Michael Quinn's article about Ezra Taft Benson and Hugh B. Brown, that the rumor about race riots at general conference was started by ultra-conservative whites, wanting to stir up a riot. So I carry a wound when I delve into Black American life and experience. I have no right to ask that part of my culture to heal my wound. That those sisters and brothers give out their healing is an act of grace. There is a snatch of hymn from my childhood that expresses the grace of such healing, "What comfort this sweet sentence gives." There is deep mystery in that line. I knew that a sentence was something a judge hands down, like a death sentence. How could a sentence be sweet? I also knew that Jesus's suffering was an act of supreme love, and I supposed that was what made his death sentence sweet. I asked my father, and he reminded me that a sentence is any collection of words, not simply what a judge says, and the sweet sentence those words referred to was, "I know that my Redeemer lives." Well, I grew up wanting to write sweet sentences. And to hear them. There are lots of sweet sentences in _I Am Jane_, some preachy sentences right at the end, and the inter-cutting of Martin Luther King's and Spencer W. Kimball's voices didn't work very well (maybe that device doesn't work well, or maybe the sound system just wasn't good enough to pull it off), but enough sweet sentences that I hope the people in Chicago find it as moving as I did, and enough sweet voices to understand why that stereotype Chuck Campbell talks about still plays from a lot of stereos. Harlow Soderborg Clark - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brandi Rainey" Subject: Re: [AML] _Pioneer_ Magazine Needs Writer Date: 26 Jul 2000 17:09:43 -0700 I'm actually writing the feature article Chris mentioned in his post. = Based on my preliminary research I can confirm that Brigham Young sent = several women east to study midwifery, but I'm not sure if either of them = was one of his wives. I'll keep you updated as my search continues. [Brandi Rainey] >>> "Nelwyn Thurman" 07/26 1:22 PM >>> I heard somewhere that one of Brigham Young's wives was sent back east to attend medical school. Was this just a story going around? Or is it = really true? Nelwyn - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rex Goode" Subject: [AML] Is the Desire to Write Genetic? Date: 26 Jul 2000 19:43:35 EDT By way of bringing some of my friends up to date on some important events in my life, and to relate it to literature, I have a question. Do you think that a desire to write is genetic? As many of my long-time friends know, I have never known my biological father. He and my mother were divorced when she was still pregnant with me. He was reputed to have dealt with mental illness, believed to be paranoid schizophrenia. I'm forty-four years old and have always wanted to know my father. I didn't really care in what condition I might find him. Chances were, if I were to ever have found him, it would be in a hospital or sanitarium, or so I was led to believe by some of my mother's relatives. My daughter, Melissa, took a few classes in family history and Brigham Young University and decided to put a query about my grandfather, Thomas Jefferson Goode, out on a web site intended for such information. A little over two weeks ago, my daughter received a question from a Sharon Goode, wanting to know how we were related to Thomas Jefferson Goode. I wrote back to the woman and said that I was the son of Thomas Jefferson Goode's son, Paul Goode, but that I had never known him. The woman quickly replied to me that she was married to my father for 22 years before divorcing him over a decade ago. She had two sons by him, my half-brothers, and best of all, was willing to put me in touch with him. Shortly thereafter, I received my first email from my long lost father. I've had a phone conversation with one of my half-brothers and long emails with the other. Last night, I had my first voice contact with my father over the phone. He has indeed spent much of his adult life in hospitals. Because of the fog of his illness at the time and my mother divorced, he was not aware she was pregnant, and therefore not aware of my existence. As you might imagine, I am both thrilled and scared. What is more than interesting to me is the degree of my personality, traits, and interests that I share with my half-brothers and father. I've seen pictures of him now, and the poor man looks like me. When he called, he said that my voice was almost identical to his younger son's. Probably the second most powerful dream and drive I've had, next to my father, is to write and some day be published. Among the things that arrived by mail from my father was a small children's book he had published through an even smaller publishing company he owns with a partner and a tape with his voice reading his poetry. My father loves to write. I love to write. Always have. [Rex Goode] ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pup7777@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] BYU Children's Writing Conference Date: 26 Jul 2000 21:05:56 EDT In a message dated 00-07-26 19:04:59 EDT, you write: << There were people who didn't know anything about writing at all, and really needed to go over the basic stuff. It would be nice if there could be a workshop for more advanced writers sometime.... >> I echo this wish. I have been to one writing conference where they did have two different tracks. One for the beginner and one for the more advance writer. There is so much to learn about the craft of writing, it is nice when we can tap into areas or techniques that we don't already know. I am always excited when I come away from a conference learning something. It seems like to me that there is a lot of resources for the beginner but not as much for the intermediate writer. I wonder why is that? Economic? I bet there are a lot of people who want to be writers, come to conferences, find out what it is all about, try it for a day or two, find out it's a lot of work or become discouraged and quit. Does anyone know good sources for the intermediate author? Lisa Peck - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] DUTCHER, _God's Army_ Date: 27 Jul 2000 02:03:16 -0600 Rex Goode wrote: > > Author, Colleen Bernhard, of _He Delivered My Soul From Bondage_, speaking > at a conference of Evergreen International in Salt Lake City a few years > ago, remarked, "The first commandment of the Mormon culture, not to be > confused with Mormon doctrine, is, 'Thou shalt avoid all appearance of > evil.'" In context, and properly translated, this passage of scriptures mean something entirely different than Bernhard says it does. A rough translation of the passage is: "Avoid evil the moment it makes its appearance." Thus we see that the Lord is not telling us to avoid "appearing" as if we are evil by avoiding outlandish clothing or hair styles, but that if we run across evil in our daily lives, we are to avoid, or eschew it. -- Thom Duncan Read the further adventures of Moroni Smith, the LDS Indiana Jones! The long-awaited second episode in the Moroni Smith LDS adventure series, _Moroni Smith: In Search of the Gold Plates_ is now available as an e-book at the Zion's Fiction web page: http://www.zfiction.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pup7777@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] BYU Children's Writing Conference Date: 26 Jul 2000 20:48:23 EDT Okay, Beth you wanted to know everything you could about the writing conference, here goes. (Actually about halfway through this conference I decided to get credit for going to these workshops. One of the assignments I have to do is do a log on everything we attended to prove we were there. That is what this is. This is probably more information than you wanted. Sorry it took me a while to response. I've been playing catch up since I came home from the conference.) Children's Panel Thursday 6:30-7:30 Chris Crowe asked the authors (Carol Lynch Williams, Kristine Randle, Mike Tunnel, and an illustrator (?) ) many thought provoking questions about the writing experience and publishing. One question I found of interest was if the authors thought that experiencing a lot of pain in a person's life could contribute to good writing. Books for Young Readers Symposium Log 9:00-10:15 Margaret Haddix The subject of her talk was where she got her ideas. She talked about how RUNNING OUT OF TIME evolved out of her work as a reporter. She then went through the rest of the books she had written and told of their births. 10:45-Noon Uri Shulevitz He talked about his art and how the publishing world used to be the good old days. He complained about the new evolving art in children's books. He showed pictures from his books. 1:30-2:30 Spotlight on Books Wonderful panel by Chris Crowe, Nancy Evensen, Jim Jacobs, Nancy Livingston, Carla Morris, and Marsha Broadway. They discussed some of the great books of the century and my wallet is definitely feeling the hurt from their sells pitches. Some that I can't wait to read our Backwater, A Dance for Three, Vanishing, Getting Near to Baby, The Wanderer, Eleanor's Story, A Stranger Comes to Ashore, The Iron Ring, Dove Isabeau, The Janitor's Boy, and Dirt Boy. 2:50-4:05 Rick Walton I did not attend. I have heard Rick Walton talk many times. He's always good. 5:00-6:50 Louis Sachar He read a chapter that he wrote and had a hard time fitting into a book. He also read from his movie script Holes and talked about changing the language of his characters for the movie. 8:45-10:00 Jim Arnosky I did not attend but heard that he played the guitar and was extremely funny. 10:40-11:55 Gail Carson Levine She talked about how she tried to write picture books for nine years. She also talked about the struggle to find who she was, her voice. She also talked about how she worked to improve her craft. 1:20-1:50 (The time was changed because the lunch of the presenters was messed up but I don't remember how far behind the presenters were from the original time outline.) Gail Carson Levine She talked a lot about what a writer could do to improve their skills, resources they could use and she also gave writing exercises that she gives to the group of kids she taught. 1:55-2:25 Margaret Haddix She talked about the importance of reading and going back to the books you loved as a child. She also talked about her children and how she is very firm when nap time starts. 2:30-3:00 Louis Sachar He talked a lot of his Sideways books and how he based it on some children he knew while working with them. He doesn't know where he got his view on life and, no, he did not get it from anyone in his family. 3:05-3:35 Louis Sachar He talked about how he like the health insurance he got from writing the movies but his heart is writing novels and that is what he wants to do. He also talked about how he does lots of rewrites and the he does have a list of things he looks for with each draft. "Writing Your Way into Print" Workshop Schedule Monday 7/17 8-12 Dean Hughes-Middle grade novel He explained his method of clustering and how it is a creative process and doesn't take away from being an artist. 1-2 Ron Woods-Placing the First Novel: Lessons in Humility and Patience It took sixteen years for his novel to get published. He read the many of the rejection letters his editors wrote him over the years. The editors called his book 'haunting' but kept having problems with the believability of the book. 2-3 Louise Plummer-"How Do I Write A Novel?" She read a scattering of her journal self-portraits. Then discussed how her students write wonderful journey entry but then lose the spark when trying to write fiction. Her secret was to write about yourself loosely disguised in fiction. Tuesday 8-12 Dean Hughes Talked about the making up a scene. We created a checked list of things needed like visual set up and the sense. Laura Torres visited and discussed the requirements of American Girl and how to get in doing a variety of things and start with nonfiction. 1:30-2:30 Carol Lynch Williams-Too Much of a Good Thing Carol talked about being brave enough to write the truth about hard issues. She possessed questions about the moral implications then showed the dangers of putting others in the book. 2:30-3:30 John H. Ritter-"If I Were You, Here's What I'd Do" He talked about the techniques of how to make good literature and how to analysis and study other people's books to improve your writing. Read books like Sherlock Holmes. 3:30-4:30 Francoise Bui-Writing from the Heart and the Editorial Process Discussed what kinds of books she published and works on. She discussed things you could do better your chances. Number one thing is to have the writing sparkle. Wednesday 7/19 8-12 Dean Hughes Went over the principles of rush write and analyze several members work. Also talked about how to force yourself to make writing time. 1:30-2:30 Panel: Laurel Brady/ Cheri Earl/ Sharlee Glenn Sharlee Glenn gave the 5 T's to be a writer and told about Madeliene L'Engle rejections. Cheri Earl talked about her books almost getting published and not writing in a vacuum. Laurel Brady informed us that once you get published, it doesn't mean you made it. 2:30-3:30 Jim Jacobs and Chris Crowe Chris and Jim announced 40 of the 20th Century's Best Books. They told about their favorite books and why. Jim's picks were more nonfiction and picture books in focused. He liked the truly unusual stories with staying power. Chris focused more on YA novels and the power of emotions. He listed books he found students love, read, and adore. 3:30-4:30 Laura Torres-Everything I Know About Publishing She went over the need for connections and why people write and more about American Girl. She then went to say that bad books get published and do sell. 7-7:30 Gloria Skurznski She read her work in progress called ROCK BUSTER. It was a historical about a boy traveling to Boise. He ends up testifying against his brother, which leads to his uncle's death. 7:30-8 Louise Plummer She read a part of an essay she wrote for the radio about forgetting things. After that she read part of her new book A DANCE FOR THREE. Thursday 8-11:30 Dean Hughes We went through more students work and discussed different issues like the difference from narrator's voice and the characters, the tendency to rehash situation too much at the beginning of a book, and the more specific little known detail you can put in historical the better it is. Noon-1:30 Ann E. Cannon Ann gave a humorous speech on living with fear and gave points on how she overcomes it. 1:30-2:30 Chat room We talked about the local market and the challenges presented there. We also talked about the trend for the "bleak" novel in children's literature. 2:30-3:30 Laura Torres- How To Get Published Laura gave a persuasive argument to why writing nonfiction is really helpful in the publishing world. She talked about submitting nonfiction and what constitute good nonfiction writing. [Lisa Peck] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ed Snow Subject: [AML] Re: Confessions of a Former FARMS Filing Clerk Date: 27 Jul 2000 07:33:28 -0700 (PDT) Jeff Needle, thanks for posting John Tvedtnes' response to my column, AND, thanks for sending the column to him. I'm glad he liked it, but I guess I'm a little mad at myself for setting myself up for his reprimand about FARMS not being an "apologetic think tank" or a "research arm of BYU." I should have known someone would take issue with those statements. My editor made me do it! Actually, the wording was mine, but Jonathon did make me add an explanation about what FARMS was, and that lame description was the best thing I could come up with to throw into a humor piece. It was a humor piece, after all. I'm allowed to exaggerate and don't have time for technicalities. I love FARMS. I read everything (virtually) that they publish. As a gospel doctrine teacher, I used their stuff every Sunday. In fact, I'm anxiously awaiting Tvedtnes' own Abrahamic lore book and I'm peeved at him for taking so long to publish the darn thing!!!! So there!! Take that, you, you ... "APOLOGIST"! John should know I'm not out of the loop, in fact, I've not only been reading FARMS stuff ever since the beginning, I've in fact published articles in their Journal of Book of Mormon Studies and Review of Books! So maybe John is a little out of the loop for not recognizing me as a FARMS regular!?!?! Hmphmph! John, I love your stuff--publish more of it, please!! Do more work on the DSS/BoM Isaiah stuff too. FARMS is one of the best things to happen in the church I can think of, but here's just one quibble. Why are they so defensive about being, well, defensive? "My name is Ed Snow, and I'm ... (gulp) ... an apologist." "Mommy, Tommy called me an apologist!" "That's it! I'm calling his mother!" It's not a disease, its not a defect. You don't have to join a self-help group. There is no 12 step program to follow. BH Roberts was proud to be a defender of the faith. I'm proud to do it too. It doesn't mean you're not a true scholar. I'm not parroting anti-mormon writers when I say FARMS is an apologetics think tank; that doesn't mean they don't produce true scholarship. Heck, all scholarship is apologetics!!!!!!!!! (that should rile everyone up). Even FARMS has made that point--that's where I learned it. Ed, defender of FARMS and Mormon Humor Apologist ===== Among best sellers, Barnes & Noble ranks _Of Curious Workmanship: Musings on Things Mormon_ in its top 100 (thousand, that is). Available now at 20% off http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=5SLFMY1TYD&mscssid=HJW5QQU1SUS12HE1001PQJ9XJ7F17G3C&srefer=&isbn=1560851368 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rex Goode" Subject: Re: [AML] DUTCHER, _God's Army_ Date: 27 Jul 2000 11:26:54 EDT >In context, and properly translated, this passage of scriptures mean >something entirely different than Bernhard says it does. > >A rough translation of the passage is: "Avoid evil the moment it makes >its appearance." Thus we see that the Lord is not telling us to avoid >"appearing" as if we are evil by avoiding outlandish clothing or hair >styles, but that if we run across evil in our daily lives, we are to >avoid, or eschew it. Of course, but the good woman can quip it in the context that most people believe it. Knowing a bit about her, I have little doubt that she knows what it really means. Her point is that, culturally, we tend to go to our church meetings putting our best and often falsest faces on, justifying our dishonesty out of fear and competitiveness. Our families may be full of spiritual and emotional sickness. We may desperately need the help of the people we worship with, but prefer instead to see if we can look the most "together." We use the church and our fellowship in it to make us museum saints instead of hospitaled sinners. Sister Bernhard's book is about addiction recovery and it is widely used in Mormon 12-step groups as an addiction workbook. Think of the woman married to an abusive husband, who shows up at church every Sunday, picture perfect, with flawlessly clean children walking reverently behind her. Her husband is a stalwart leader in the ward. Instead of leaving the bum, she ties her little family up in a "model Mormon family" package and avoids looking like her true pain. This is what Sister Bernhard meant. I find it interesting that every time I mention this quote from Sister Bernhard, someone feels obligated to correct the translation. What's up with that? Obviously, in the context in which I quoted it, her referral to that scripture was not to use it literally, but to make a philosophical point. Rex Goode ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara@techvoice.com (Barbara R. Hume) Subject: Re: [AML] Is the Desire to Write Genetic? Date: 27 Jul 2000 10:12:02 -0700 >By way of bringing some of my friends up to date on some important events in >my life, and to relate it to literature, I have a question. > >Do you think that a desire to write is genetic? I'm not sure about the desire, but the talent may very well be. After I divorced, I moved back to my home town, where I got a job in Information Services at the local university where my father was a professor. During the course of my work, several of his articles crossed my desk. They were beautifully written! I had never seen any of his writing before, and I was seriously impressed. When I said to him, "Dad, you are a wonderful writer!" his response was, "Well, I've known that for thirty years!" My son always avoided writing because he considered it a chore, but when he was in graduate school I edited some of his papers for him and found that he has a natural feel for organization, sentence structure, support of thesis, integration of narrative passages into technical articles, word choice--in other words, I was seriously impressed. Okay, no cracks about traits tending to skip generations. barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: eedh Subject: [AML] BYU Children's Writing Conference Date: 27 Jul 2000 09:31:10 -0700 Thank you, everyone, for the comments about the writing conference. And thank you, Lisa, for your comments about the individual sessions. Do you have the time to answer a few questions? 1) Did the panel feel that experiencing pain in life contributed to good writing? 2) What things did gail Carson Levine say about a writer improving writing skills? What resources did she suggest? 3) What is Dean Hughes' clustering method? How did he suggest we force ourselves to make time to write? 4) How does Ann E. Cannon overcome fear? 5) What are the local market challenges for children's writers? 6) What constitutes good nonfiction writing? Did it make you want to try nonfiction writing (if you don't already do it)? Thanks for all this information! -Beth Hatch - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Perry Subject: Re: [AML] _Pioneer_ Magazine Needs Writer Date: 27 Jul 2000 10:37:46 -0600 Wasn't Ellis Shipp one of these women? (Not a wife of BY, though.) Steve P. > From: "Brandi Rainey" > Subject: Re: [AML] _Pioneer_ Magazine Needs Writer > > Based on my preliminary research I can confirm that Brigham Young sent several > women east to study midwifery, but I'm not sure if either of them was one of > his wives. I'll keep you updated as my search continues. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jeff.needle@general.com Subject: [AML] Two Queries Date: 27 Jul 2000 11:13:00 -0700 Am> Two queries: Am> 2) In the new, bright-orange _Dialogue_ which was edited by the AML, a Am> reference is given at the bottom of page 7 for an essay by John Redelf Am> titled "Who are the Signaturi?" However, the URL given didn't work. Am> Does anyone have a better reference or the full text they could e-mail Am> me? Am> Thanks, Am> Chris Bigelow, chrisb@enrich.com His name is John Redelfs, and his e-mail address is jredelfs@worldnet.att.com. Hope this helps! ... Jeff Needle/jeff.needle@general.com ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Laura Summerhays Subject: Re: [AML] SALINGER, _Catcher_ Date: 27 Jul 2000 11:53:09 -0700 (PDT) I am a female who read Catcher in the Rye at 17 and it affected me very much, so I don't think it's just a guy thing. Laura Summerhays - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Adams Subject: Re: [AML] Is the Desire to Write Genetic? Date: 27 Jul 2000 15:23:57 -0500 At 06:43 PM 7/26/00, you wrote: >Among the things that arrived by mail from my father was a small >children's book he had published through an even smaller publishing >company he owns with a partner and a tape with his voice reading his >poetry. My father loves to write. I love to write. Always have. > >[Rex Goode] Very good question. I've wondered about this myself. My grandfather was Jean R. Paulson, who never became "famous" through his writing, but he wrote and published several biographies and a quantity of nonfiction articles in his lifetime, working in journalism and communications. He kept writing until he passed away two years ago at 91, although his eyesight had deteriorated to virtual blindness. He was also a friend and contemporary of Sam Taylor's. I am pretty sure there are other writers in my family further back as well, but I can't name them. So, there could be some truth to the idea. For all I know. And congratulations on finding your father. It must be both joyous and nerve-wracking, I can only imagine something that would be an overwhelming experience for all involved. Wow! Linda Adams ======================= Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com Writing Page: http://members.xoom.com/adamszoo Little Ones Lost: http://home.sprintmail.com/~adamszoo My new book, _Prodigal Journey,_ is now available online! Go to: http://deseretbook.com/products/4066899/index.html - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Adams Subject: Re: [AML] CARD, _A Storyteller in Zion_ Date: 27 Jul 2000 14:58:27 -0500 >I hate the feeling of going to a book store or a sacrament meeting with >something nagging at me--"Oh, there's a book I need to remember to pick up >or an envelope I need to remember to give to someone." I prefer to keep my >mind free to enjoy and daydream. Okay, that makes sense. >I make a lot of serendipitous discoveries in bookstores (and try to avoid >them because I always spend too much), but if I know in advance I want a >specific title, I always just order it on the spot via Internet so it's >off my plate. (That reminds me, Linda, I need to order YOUR book. I balked >because it wasn't yet on Amazon or BN.) > >Chris Bigelow I wonder if you can order it directly from Cornerstone? Richard? And what would the process and postage be...? Anyway, thank you for wanting it. :-) Linda Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com Writing Page: http://members.xoom.com/adamszoo Little Ones Lost: http://home.sprintmail.com/~adamszoo My new book, _Prodigal Journey,_ is now available online! Go to: http://deseretbook.com/products/4066899/index.html - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Adams Subject: [AML] Ordering Electronically (was: CARD, _A Storyteller in Zion_) Date: 27 Jul 2000 14:58:27 -0500 >I hate the feeling of going to a book store or a sacrament meeting with >something nagging at me--"Oh, there's a book I need to remember to pick up >or an envelope I need to remember to give to someone." I prefer to keep my >mind free to enjoy and daydream. Okay, that makes sense. >I make a lot of serendipitous discoveries in bookstores (and try to avoid >them because I always spend too much), but if I know in advance I want a >specific title, I always just order it on the spot via Internet so it's >off my plate. (That reminds me, Linda, I need to order YOUR book. I balked >because it wasn't yet on Amazon or BN.) > >Chris Bigelow I wonder if you can order it directly from Cornerstone? Richard? And what would the process and postage be...? Anyway, thank you for wanting it. :-) Linda Linda Adams adamszoo@sprintmail.com Writing Page: http://members.xoom.com/adamszoo Little Ones Lost: http://home.sprintmail.com/~adamszoo My new book, _Prodigal Journey,_ is now available online! Go to: http://deseretbook.com/products/4066899/index.html - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] DUTCHER, _God's Army_ Date: 27 Jul 2000 15:10:40 -0600 Rex Goode wrote: > > I find it interesting that every time I mention this quote from Sister > Bernhard, someone feels obligated to correct the translation. What's up with > that? I'll tell you why I do it every time I see the passage brought up (about avoiding the appearance of evil.) I have seen much harm done to innocent people in the name of this scripture. I have witnessed the friends of my children sent away from a dance in tear because of the misapplication of this passage (they weren't wearing "modest" clothing.) I have seen my own son kept from passing the sacrament as a deacon because he didn't wear a white shirt. I've seen investigator women leave the church with a vow never to return because someone mentioned to them that they can't wear pants in the "Lord's house." So forgive me if I'm a little knee-jerky when I see this scripture mis-applied. -- Thom Duncan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kristi Bell Subject: Re: [AML] _Pioneer_ Magazine Needs Writer Date: 27 Jul 2000 15:48:43 -0600 Not all early Mormon doctors lacked medical training. My husband's great-great grandfather, Dr. John Bernhisel, was a trained medical doctor practicing in the East before he joined the Church and moved to Nauvoo where he became Joseph Smith's physician. Once he came to Utah, Brigham Young sent him to Washington D.C. to look after the Church's interest. So, I guess you could say there weren't many practicing medical doctors. Kristi Bell - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rex Goode" Subject: Re: [AML] Is the Desire to Write Genetic? Date: 27 Jul 2000 18:55:40 EDT Thanks, Marilyn. Even before these events, I was an autobiography waiting to happen. I've had lots of encouragement to do my story, but I find that I'm so busy living my life that I can't find the time to chronicle it. It would be different if I'd go from all of this excitement into a few months of mundane, but it just doesn't happen that way. Of course, if anyone wants to become my biographer... ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: [AML] R. A. CHRISTMAS, _The Fiction_, and _Driving on the Lakebed_ (Review) Date: 27 Jul 2000 13:01:08 -0700 (Note, this originally appeared in the Winter 99 _Irreantum_, without the poem "Eaton Wash," which appeared separately. I had meant to post it, but kept forgetting to. However, if I'm ever going to move out of third place in number of reviews, pass R. W. Rasband, and challenge Jeff Needle's lead, this is a good time to start posting more.:)) Panhandlers Standing Like Sentinels a review by Harlow S. Clark R. A. Christmas. _The Fiction_. 1998. $25. Paperback. Available from R.A. Christmas, 2250 N University Parkway #4855, Provo, UT 84604. Price includes p&h and taxes. --_Driving on the Lakebed_ . 1998. $15. Paperback. Also available from the author. Warning: Explicit content and subject matter. _The Fiction_ is the first book I've read that comes with a warning. It's also a short book, not much over 100 pages, with a generic title, plain blue cover--no copy, and an outrageous price. This all reminds me of a story Jim Jacobs tells about Lloyd Alexander. Jacobs is a BYU professor of children's literature who did a biography of Alexander for his thesis or dissertation. I picked the book up one day in his office and it fell open to a story about Alexander's first published book, a translation of _The Wall and Other Stories_ by Jean Paul Sartre. Seems New Directions was in an awkward position. They liked the book, wanted to publish it, but it was just after the war, Churchhill had issued his solemn declaration about the iron curtain having descended across Eastern Europe and New Directions was afraid some of the stories would be thought obscene. So, being in the position of wanting the book in print but not wanting people to read it and raise a fuss, they priced it very high, $9. You have to want to read _The Fiction_ to read it. Christmas put the warning there to tell not-his readers that it's not theirs. It is explicit, but much less explicit than, say, a scene in Ken Follett's _Eye of the Needle_ which examines sex for a ruthless spy who has no sense of the connection between physical intimacy and the intimacy of marriage, or the scenes in M. Scott Peck's _A Bed by the Window_ which examine sex among the disabled and elderly in a nursing home. The sex in Christmas's story cycle is more harsh because it treats people who have a desparation for sex, who want physical, emotional and spiritual intimacy but aren't sure how to get it. And Latter-day Saints are likely to experience the sex scenes more viscerally than they would Follett's or Peck's because it follows the sexual and spiritual misadventures of a Methodist convert who alternately tries to embrace and shake off his adopted Mormonism. You could think of it as a pretty unsavory book if you don't take seriously the epigraph: "And if it so be that you should labor all your days in crying repentance unto this people, and bring, save it be one soul unto me, how great shall be your joy with him in the kingdom of my Father!" (D&C 18:15). If you take the epigraph seriously you might ponder what it is about salvation that makes it worth laboring all your days just to save your own soul, what it is about sin that makes it an all-days' struggle just to save yourself from it. R. L. Robinson's struggle culminates in "Another Angel," which has been one of my favorite stories since I first read it in Levi Peterson's anthology _Greening Wheat_. I have great affection for the story because of the literary convention that when faith meets the academy, faith loses. Robinson's new wife (number 5, I think), a doctoral student in American literature searching for a dissertation topic comes across the Book of Mormon and decides to trace the literary influences that produced the book. But as she reads she begins to believe, which causes a crisis for Rick, who tells her of some horrible experiences with the girl he joined the Church for decades earlier. Faith doesn't necessarily win over the academy here, the story ends ambiguously, but Christmas makes it plain that believing is as valid a response to the Book of Mormon as to any book. Indeed, the last two pages, two paragraph-sized vignettes, imply this--perhaps. A lot of the book's energy comes from what Rick Robinson does because he can't decide to embrace the culture he can't shake, the culture and religion that re-invade his life as he re-enters marriage. So the book ends in the ambiguity that serves literary works well (Rick has been an English teacher off and on and has re-entered teaching), but hasn't served his life well--perhaps because he confuses his life for a literary work. The longest story, "Beheading Game," recounts his attempts/non-attempts to have an affair with his high school girlfriend (now a wife and mother in her twenties or thirties). The story is a letter from Rick to a friend, and he both crafts his letter as a retelling of "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight," and discusses why he's shaping the story that way. But if you've shaped your life as a piece of fiction, how do you reshape it, especially if you like the freedom from commitment implied in the idea that there are endless correct interpretations for any work of art? In Christmas's poem "After Forty Years in the Church" the character muses that Forty years was enough, enough moaning that Utah was no Promised Land when there was promise enough, right under his tires, and the Jordan a mile from the freeway. It was time to cross it (or drown), _Driving on the Lakebed_, which Christmas describes as "_a work of poetic fiction_. The characters and events portrayed in this book are either fictitious or are used fictitiously," tells much the same story as _The Fiction_ but extends it, taking it away from the ambiguity and towards clarity. Christmas told me he is trying to capture small moments precisely. The style of his recent poetry is quite simple, and likely to be unsatisfying to people who like rich textured wordplay, but Christmas also achieves some striking effects especially when musing on the power of a word or name, as in "Beaver" where a person driving towards a southern Utah town reflects that its name seemed to stand for everything wonderful and dangerous at once (like when the city fathers fought off a pornographer who tried to set up shop and use their postmark). or in "Eaton Wash" in _City of Roses_ (also in the Winter 1999 issue of _Irreantum_,) where the repetition of "(his real name)" invites us to think about how a person can make his name obscene by doing obscene things, invites us to imagine the sorrow of children who can't fight off an obscenity, and end up making it a rite of passage. Eaton Wash How'd you like to have been a World War II fighter pilot in the Pacific and get your nose shot off-- like Dick (his real name) did? I don't know if the above's true (it's just what Doug said), because that's one part of Dick I didn't have to touch. Over fifty years later there's only one thing I still hold against the Japanese-- They didn't aim lower; because Dick (his real name) was able to take us boys camping across the canyon with his 22's (it wasn't scouting, but it could've been); and it was always the new guy's turn in the barrel (Dick's double sleeping-bag, that is). After that, you gave him a wide berth. And sometimes a torrent would tear down, rolling boulders big as millstones toward the beach. But some dirt won't wash away. This sense of a child trying to get past the horrors of adult corruption informs "Excommunication," a poem I find charming in its comparisons of sorrows. Excommunication is like losing your driver's license forever; is like learning to crawl again--or having to take the bus to skid row every Monday in the sixth-grade for Hawaiian-guitar lessons. Excommunication is like walking back afterwards to Dad's office, past the bars and porn-shops-- the panhandlers standing like sentinesl--it's like spending your last dime on chocolate at the pharmacy to get through the endless wait at the warehouse wondering (while Grandpa chews his cigar and scowls) when--or if-- Father will take you home. That last line haunts me. There's a lot in Bob Christmas's stories and poems to haunt. I told him recently that ever since I read _Driving on the Lakebed_ I imagine water wherever I drive. As I come down the hill into Lindon on my way to Pleasant Grove I can hardly help imagining myself descending ever deeper into the lake, can hardly help looking up at the shoreline, wondering who lived there when I was covered with water. And every when that drives me past the point of the mountain I remember the geologist who said, "This formation is in every physical geography textbook in the world, and in fifteen years it will be gone." Pure sand, it has been going into the lakebed for I-15 to expand, to carry more and more across the lakebed. And I keep remembering the closing lines of the title poem: caught glancing from time to time at the shoreline, reminded that maybe things were like this before the flood too. Harlow S. Clark ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] Two Requests Date: 27 Jul 2000 18:56:27 EDT Chris Bigelow: Two queries: 2) ... an essay by John Redelf titled "Who are the Signaturi?" _______________ The essay you are looking for is at: http://home.att.net/~jredelfs/signatur.html John Redelfs has other interesting stuff at: http://home.att.net/~jredelfs/home.html I could post the whole essay if others are interested. [MOD: I've looked at the essay, and though it's interesting, it's off-topic for AML-List--so I'm afraid I have to nix Larry's offer here, at least as regards posting the essay here.] Larry Jackson _______________ Who Are the Signaturi? An Essay by John W. Redelfs Who are the Signaturi? Here is the Redelfs definition: The Signaturi are a clique of dissidents within the modern Church (Mormon) who profess to be faithful members of the Church and possess some or most of the following characteristics: < ... > Copyright (c) 1994 by John W. Redelfs - Permission is hereby granted to freely distribute this piece provided it is reproduced in it's entirety and includes this copyright notice. ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pup7777@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Is the Desire to Write Genetic? Date: 27 Jul 2000 21:52:02 EDT In a message dated 00-07-27 16:57:09 EDT, you write: << Rex, this is incredible! What a story! Yes, you must write it! I am so impressed. This is amazing. I haven't heard many stories of this kind that have had the impact this one does on me. Of course you'll need to meet him--get some relationship things going--to complete the tale, but it is a NOVEL of epic proportions. I agree with Marilyn. I enjoyed your story too and wondered what it would be like to be in your shoes. If you wrote a book as moving as your post, it would definitely book a good read. As far as your question about desire to write being genetic, I feel like an odd duck compared to others who have posted. I am definitely an odd duck in my family. My father is in the medical field who has read maybe one fiction book and no, it wasn't mine. My mother was a stay-at-home mother who believes the only books worth reading are doctrinal and my brothers are all becoming accountants and only read business books and think I torture myself every day writing. As far as I know, all my ancestors were in the medical field or happy homemakers. I keep looking around my family wondering where the heck I came from. Lisa Peck - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pup7777@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] BYU Children's Writing Conference Date: 27 Jul 2000 22:21:48 EDT In a message dated 00-07-27 16:59:49 EDT, you write: << And thank you, Lisa, for your comments about the individual sessions. Do you have the time to answer a few questions? Wow. Someone actually read my VERY long post. And sure I'll answer your questions. I'm having trouble with getting a chapter working and I'm looking for a good excuse to put it off. 1) Did the panel feel that experiencing pain in life contributed to good writing? Most of the authors said that everyone experiences pain and they didn't really think that it was a factor. Although Chris Crowe who asked the question read an article from somewhere that went into depth about how much trauma J.K. Rowlings had experienced from her mother dying (I think) and having a failed marriage and money problems. He quoted several other very successful authors who had huge trials too. I can't remember now who they were. 2) What things did gail Carson Levine say about a writer improving writing skills? What resources did she suggest? She spoke about the enemy of creativity being negative voices. She talked about the deep depression she had while trying to make it and her longing to quit; then about nine years of rejection, and the year of trying to sell Ella, which won the Newberry Honor. Gail stated her motto, "While you're never giving up, have a wonderful time." Some helps she gave: *Figure out where your self is in the book. What is really going on? What are you really exploring about yourself? * Find a character that will match the story you want to tell. * Simple plot is the easiest, then you can embellish it. * Keep your eye on the ball. Keep your eye on the overall concept of the book at all times. *Recommended writing books and authors on writing are: Becoming a Writer, Writing on Both Sides of the Brain, Bird by Bird, Natalie Goldberg, Laurence Block, On the Edge, and The Artist Way. *Use a book or a story that you know really well and substitute someone you know. Ex.: If your parents were Little Red Riding Hood, would grandma stay in bed? * Exercise writing in detail-write a scene just focusing on detail. Ex.: You have a magical cloak that makes you invisible when you wear it. Write about what the cloak feels like. Report everything that happens. What does it feel like when you touch something through the cloak. Write moment by moment. * Listen to others and become sensitive to what works and what doesn't. Take advice. *Trust yourself. *List 12 possibilities of what could happen, even if you have a good idea keep going. Good ideas are shy. Stupid ideas are not. *Interview characters on paper. Do a character description. What is in their room? What's in their pockets? She also talked a lot about taking creative writing classes and having critique groups. She used the word writing circle instead of critique group. 3) What is Dean Hughes' clustering method? How did he suggest we force ourselves to make time to write? The clustering idea is where you sit down and write an idea in the middle of the page and circle it then if you have an idea of what could happen have that branch off from it. He does this until he has his whole outline of the book done. I know that I read about this method in one of my writing book. It's been years though. Does anyone know where this idea is expressed better? He makes himself write by having a caffeine drink by his computer. 4) How does Ann E. Cannon overcome fear? She realizes she's not alone with her fear. Tells herself this stage will pass. She confronts what she is afraid of. 5) What are the local market challenges for children's writers? Most of the local publishers are having a hard time making any money with children books. The national market does such a nice job with low priced books it's hard to compete. 6) What constitutes good nonfiction writing? Did it make you want to try nonfiction writing (if you don't already do it)? Good nonfiction tells a story, starts with conflict, reads like fiction, well rounded characters, sets up conflict and resolves it, has a hook, stick to plot, knows where to leave out unnecessary detail, gives interesting facts, uses quotes, and surprises the read. Yes, I have written nonfiction but after her spill about how it makes you a better fiction writer (she's having her second fiction book come out nationally) and how much easier the market is to break into, yes, I am going to try some more nonfiction. If any of my choppy answers don't make any sense, I'm sorry, and I will be glad to explain it clearer. Lisa Peck - >> - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kathleen Woodbury Subject: Re: [AML] BYU Children's Writing Conference Date: 27 Jul 2000 20:32:46 -0600 At 09:31 AM 7/27/00 -0700, Beth Hatch wrote: >Thank you, everyone, for the comments about the writing conference. And >thank you, Lisa, for your comments about the individual sessions. Do >you have the time to answer a few questions? I know you asked Lisa to answer these, but I'd like to take a crack at them, too. I hope that's okay. >1) Did the panel feel that experiencing pain in life contributed to good >writing? I didn't attend the symposium, so I didn't hear the panel, but just from the readings at the conference, and from some of the things people said, it sure felt as if pain was something people write about a lot for children. Since writers are supposed to "write what you know" if you don't know pain, you can't write about it. I certainly didn't feel that I could write some of the painful things they've written. I haven't had pain like that in my life, for one thing. That's one reason I write science fiction and fantasy. Those gut-wrenching, pain-ridden books serve to tell kids that they're not alone and that they can survive the painful things in their lives, I suppose; but I want to give them a place to escape to. >2) What things did gail Carson Levine say about a writer improving >writing skills? What resources did she suggest? Didn't hear her speak--wish I had. >3) What is Dean Hughes' clustering method? How did he suggest we force >ourselves to make time to write? He puts his main idea in the center of a sheet of paper and then clusters ideas and thoughts relevant to it around it, drawing connecting lines, and making notes and lists elsewhere on the paper, basically outlining the book he's going to write. >4) How does Ann E. Cannon overcome fear? a--realize you're not alone b--remember that "this, too, shall pass" c--take a look at what you're really afraid of (not being good enough, imposter syndrome, perfect thing in my head will never be as perfect on paper--don't expect the whole thing to be perfect, look for perfect pieces within it) d--own your mistakes and learn from them, allow yourself to make them e--go ahead and start, just do it f--ask yourself what you're going to write today g--put writing close to the top of your list of things you need to do each day h--take it one day at a time i--stop at a place where you know what's going to happen netxt (this is from Eudora Welty) (my own thought--if you do this, you'll be anxious to get back to work the next day) j--remember that once you start up, your fear starts to evaporate >5) What are the local market challenges for children's writers? There are probably more local (meaning LDS, right?) market opportunities for middle-grade and young-adult authors than there are for picture book authors because there is an interest among LDS parents in finding alternative fiction for their young readers and teenagers to a lot of what is available nationally for them to read. There isn't that much opportunity for picture books, because there isn't an interest in alternate picture books the way there is for older children's books. >6) What constitutes good nonfiction writing? Did it make you want to >try nonfiction writing (if you don't already do it)? good nonfiction writing should tell a story, too Laura Torres pointed out in her talk that it pays better than fiction, it's easier to break into because there's more demand (more markets) for it >Thanks for all this information! I hope this helps. I'm looking forward to Lisa's answers to these questions. Kathleen Dalton-Woodbury - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kathleen Meredith Subject: Re: [AML] SALINGER, _Catcher_ Date: 27 Jul 2000 23:33:16 -0700 (PDT) Yes! I was going to say that as well. I think that Catcher in the Rye was the first important book I read. I was fifteen. For some reason, the f-word didn't bother me that much when I read it, but I was young. That was a coming of age book for me, and I expect my kids to read it someday. -As well as Brave New World and A Clockwork Orange. I don't believe that Catcher is just a guy thing, but I did grow up in California... -Kathleen Meredith --- Laura Summerhays wrote: > I am a female who read Catcher in the Rye at 17 and > it > affected me very much, so I don't think it's just a > guy thing. > > Laura Summerhays - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terry L Jeffress" Subject: [AML] Review Archive Update Date: 28 Jul 2000 10:22:25 -0600 New reviews posted ================== #370 Parkinson, Benson. _Into the Field._ Reviewed by Rex Goode #371 Du Pre, Jon. _The Prodigal Father._ Reviewed by R. W. Rasband #372 Plummer, Louise. _A Dance for Three._ Reviewed by Melissa Proffitt #373 Young, Margaret. _I Am Jane._ Reviewed by Harlow Clark Previous reviews found and added ================================ #357 Rogers, Thomas F. _A Call to Russia._ Reviewed by Andrew R Hall - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mary Jane Jones" Subject: [AML] 2000 PEARL Award Winners Date: 28 Jul 2000 00:50:47 -0600 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE July 27, = 2000 2000 PEARL Awards Winners McKay Events Center, Orem* Jenny Oaks Baker and Hilary Weeks walked away = with three PEARL statuettes each in the 2000 PEARL Awards held at the = McKay Events Center at UVSC in Orem on Thursday evening. =20 Other winners included Peter Breinholt (Performing Artist of the Year), = Kenneth Cope (Male Vocalist of the Year), Sam Cardon (Producer of the = Year) and Ryan Shupe and the Rubberband (Group of the Year). Weeks won = honors for Female Vocalist, Songwriter and Inspirational Album of the = Year. Baker took the award for Instrumentalist of the Year, Instrumental = Album and Recording of the Year. Host Thurl Bailey took two awards, including New Artist of the Year. The = former forward for the Utah Jazz charmed the packed house with his gentle = manner and deep voice. Co-host Eric D. Snider played the part of = sidekick*"Stockton to your Malone," he quipped with Bailey during the show = opening. =20 Highlights of the evening included: Weeks' performance of "He'll Speak = Peace" from her award-winning album; the Legacy Award, presented to = Crawford Gates; the Rich Gibbons Humanitarian Award, presented to a = tearful and sincere Kurt Bestor; Marvin Payne stylishly placing a doily on = the podium to create "the right mood" and; an appearance from Richard = Dutcher and Michael Buster of God's Army, doing a playful parody of the = hit film as they presented the award for Performing Artist of the Year. = =20 The event was filmed for television and will be broadcast on KJZZ-TV on = Sunday, August 20. It was also broadcast live on LDSRadio.com with pre- = and post-show commentary and interviews from Scot and Maurine Proctor of = MeridianMagazine.com Thursday's awards program was the third PEARL Awards. Presented annually = by the Faith Centered Music Association, the PEARL Awards honor excellence = in artistic achievement among artists, performers and musicians who have a = faith centered world-view. The entire event was produced and staffed by = professionals in the music industry who volunteer their time and efforts = to make this awards presentation a reality. Following is a complete list of winners. For more information please = contact Mary Jane Jones at 801.355.1771. Sacred Recording Jesus Once Was a Little Child Songs My Mother Taught Me Jenny Oaks Baker Inspirational Recording Mercy's Arms Many Different Roads Gladys Knight Contemporary Recording All the While Faith In Your Heart Thurl Bailey Instrumental Recording Put Your Shoulder to the Wheel Happy Hymns Festival Brass & Winds Sacred Album All Creature of Our God and Kings BYU Concert Choir Inspirational Album Lead Me Home Hilary Weeks Contemporary Album Dive Deep Julie de Azevedo Instrumental Album Songs My Mother Taught Me Jenny Oaks Baker Themed or Concept Album Let Us Adore Him Gibbons Family Musical Presentation or Soundtrack American Prophet Merrill Jenson & Sam Cardon Male Vocalist Kenneth Cope Female Vocalist Hilary Weeks Instrumentalist of the Year Jenny Oaks Baker Group of the Year Ryan Shupe & the Rubberband New Artist of the Year Thurl Bailey Producer of the Year Sam Cardon Songwriter of the Year Hilary Weeks Performing Artist of the Year Peter Breinholt Orchestrator/Arranger of the Year Mack Wilberg Studio Musician of the Year Michael Dowdle Studio Vocalist of the Year Jenny Jordan Frogley Engineer of the Year Barry Gibbons Best Album Design Dive Deep (Gillett + Co.) Radio Show of the Year Doug Wright (KSL) Record Label of the Year Excel Entertainment Group, Inc. ### =20 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rex Goode" Subject: Re: [AML] DUTCHER, _God's Army_ Date: 28 Jul 2000 12:47:10 EDT Thom Duncan wrote: >So forgive me if I'm a little knee-jerky when I see this scripture >mis-applied. Thom, I certainly understand your knee-jerk reaction, but was mostly surprised that you didn't seem to recognize that Colleen Bernhard's comment about that scripture was more in line with your thinking than not. When she said, "The first commandment of the Mormon culture, not to be confused with Mormon doctrine, is 'Thou shalt avoid all appearance of evil,' she is pointing out the same misuse and misunderstanding that you point out. She's not saying that the usual way it is interpreted is correct. She's saying we are promoting an untruth when we believe the standard beliefs about that scripture. She's saying that the teachings of the gospel do not call for us to paint on false faces so we can look better than we really are. She is essentially mocking the status quo applications of that scripture. She is also pointing out that the doctrine of the Church is somewhat different than how we usually apply that scripture. Avoiding the appearance of evil while not avoiding evil itself is the root of many problems. We are afraid to be who we are--flawed and desperately striving sinners. We would rather show up and look as cloned as possible rather than come and plead for help. This wrong sentiment is why so many don't want Mormon fiction to ever portray anything that doesn't appear to be a commercial for the Church. There is a belief that if you bury your nose in a fictional world where solutions are easy, that you'll somehow be able to come to live in that world without any effort, or that if you can ignore the problems you face, that they aren't really there. Mormon families have the same struggles as other families. They may approach the solutions different. They may even have them in fewer numbers. They still have them. [Rex Goode] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: Re: [AML] SALINGER, _Catcher_ Date: 28 Jul 2000 12:00:36 -0500 I, on the other hand, am a guy who started reading _Catcher in the Rye_ as a teenager, disliked it very much, and never finished. As I recall, my feeling was that the main character was the sort of person who I, as a teenager, feared and disliked and would cross the street to avoid, so why read about him? Not a very charitable attitude, but there it is. I'm not claiming that this is an insightful reading of the book, because (a) I've never returned to it as an adult; (b) as I said, I never finished the book; (c) I've encountered a number of sensitive and delightful people, both on this List and elsewhere, who found that the book spoke profoundly to them; if that's the case, then clearly my reading was far too narrow. But it was my reaction to the book as a teenager. I post it here for several reasons: * First, just to complicate the girl thing/guy thing thing, and add one more data point for whoever might be tracking likes and dislikes of the book * Second, to point out the kind of personal connections--often quite nonliterary--that can color our response to a specific book * Third, to make the point (which probably doesn't need making, but I'm going to make it anyway) that just because a particular work is a significant coming-of-age story for one reader, that doesn't mean it will be so for other readers even with the same basic characteristics: e.g., LDS, arts-oriented, guy (or girl). I have the same sort of response, for example, to _Tom Sawyer_, which many readers find a powerful coming-of-age story. For me, reading it in late childhood/early adolescence, it did absolutely nothing--not because the book was too hard for me, but because the experience it described was so foreign to mine. Years later, though, when I read Bradbury's _Dandelion Wine_, I had a reaction that seemed to me very much like what other readers describe for _Tom Sawyer_: the shock of encountering a powerful distillation of the very spirit of late childhood. One of the books that speaks most powerfully to me of any I've ever read. But obviously, not everyone has the same reaction. * Which I guess leads to my fourth point: That we need to be very careful, especially in "coming-of-age" stories, to allow adolescents their own individual, idiosyncratic reactions to specific literary works, and not take offense (or launch an offense) if a work we consider profoundly moving fails to connect for them. Yes, I'm largely preaching to myself--my oldest child is 11, and already has a most pronounced taste in books, some of which I agree with, some of which I don't care for that much. I'm finding that as someone who cares very deeply about books, I have to keep reminding myself to let him have his own taste. (At least he likes them. How would I react if he said, "Dad, I really don't want to read. Let me just go outside and play football with my friends, okay?" Now *that* would be a true test of my open-mindedness...) Jonathan Langford Speaking for myself, not the List jlangfor@pressenter.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: eedh Subject: Re: [AML] BYU Children's Writing Conference Date: 28 Jul 2000 10:01:41 -0700 Pup7777@aol.com wrote: > She also talked a lot about taking creative writing classes and having > critique groups. She used the word writing circle instead of critique group. Lisa and Kathleen, these notes are great! Thank you so much! Just one more question. What did Gail Carson Levine say about creative writing classes? -Beth Hatch - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: Re: [AML] DUTCHER, _God's Army_ Date: 28 Jul 2000 12:15:03 -0500 Rex Goode wrote: >I find it interesting that every time I mention this quote from Sister >Bernhard, someone feels obligated to correct the translation. What's up with >that? Obviously, in the context in which I quoted it, her referral to that >scripture was not to use it literally, but to make a philosophical point. I think that this is a particularly sensitive point for LDS writers, because interpreted in the way this scripture often is, it can logically be used to argue that in "avoiding the very appearance of evil" we ought to avoid depicting evil in literature and art. As has recently been discussed on the "Good Writing" thread (in connection with Plato), if you disquality the depiction of evil, you're left with a much poorer range for literary and artistic expression. Having said that, I should also add that it seems to me that this is basically the same point Sister Bernhard was making (at least, according to your report). In other words, it didn't sound like she was saying we ought to interpret the scripture this way. Rather, she was using this as a short-hand way of referring to a particular *cultural* attitude we have in the Church about talking about or depicting negative things. It sounded like she might agree that interpreting the scripture in this way (turning it into a commandment about appearances) is indeed "wresting the scriptures," or at least misinterpreting the gospel. But however you interpret it, it's a bit of counsel that I suspect many LDS writers and readers have spent some time wrestling with--both what the scripture means to them, and how other Church members may apply it to their writing or reading. [Just read Rex's post--he said much the same thing--but I'll post this anyway...] Jonathan Langford Speaking for myself, not the List jlangfor@pressenter.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gabi Kupitz Subject: [AML] Children's Lit. Events Date: 28 Jul 2000 12:35:21 -0600 The following may be of interest to you: On Saturday, 29 July 2000 from 1:30 p.m. at the McCurdy Historical Doll Museum (246 North 100 East, Provo), the museum will celebrate 22 years of doll shows, activities, and special doll-related events with a special birthday party and story-telling event featuring the dolls and books of Virginia Sorensen (Utah author--deceased--and Newbery Award winner). Please call the museum at 377-9935 for reservations. Admission is $3 for adults and $2 for children under 12. Also, the Children's Literature Review Group will meet on Thursday, 10 August 2000 from 3:30-5:30 p.m. in the Provo Public Library's Board Room (lower level) to celebrate the end of summer reading, Harry Potter mania (positive/negative), good books, etc. Please bring refreshments to share! For more information, please call Gabi at 378-6735 or send a message to gabriele_kupitz@byu.edu On Friday, 22 September 2000 at 1 p.m. (ish), Joan Bauer, author of Hope Was There (2000), Backwater (1999), Rules of the Road (1998), Squashed (1992), etc., will be at BYU to speak and to sign books at the BYU Bookstore. Everyone is welcome! Have a great day!--Gabi Gabi Kupitz Brigham Young University Harold B. Lee Library Room 6458 Provo, UT 84602 Phone: (801) 378-6735 FAX: still missing... E-mail: gabriele_kupitz@byu.edu - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Perry Subject: [AML] MERRILL, "God's Purpose for the Artist in the Gospel Plan" Date: 28 Jul 2000 12:52:00 -0600 Hi Listers, Love to know what you think about Keith Merrill's article, "God's Purpose for the Artist in the Gospel Plan." http://www.meridianmagazine.com/arts/000629artists.html Steve P. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rex Goode" Subject: Re: [AML] DUTCHER, _God's Army_ Date: 28 Jul 2000 17:51:12 EDT Thanks, Jonathan. I agree very much. It might be helpful to relate the context of Colleen Bernhard's statement. She was speaking to a conference partially on the topic of addictions. She was relating some of the difficulties she faced in bringing addiction recovery issues a degree of legitimacy among Latter-day Saints. Her book, _He Delivered My Soul From Bondage_, is a workbook developed based on her search for Book of Mormon scriptures that support 12-step methodologies (as in Alcoholics Anonymous). I don't know if anyone remembers a talk given in general conference many, many years ago. I don't recall the speaker, but it seemed to me at the time to be somewhat a jab at the Alcoholics Anonymous pillar of someone who has quit drinking forever referring to himself as an alcoholic. The leader giving the talk did not single out Alcoholics Anonymous, but the wording of his comments left little doubt in my mind, and I was pretty young at the time. This leader seemed to feel that if an alcoholic gave up drinking, it was inappropriate, from a doctrinal standpoint, to continue to refer to himself as an alcoholic. This is a pivotal point for 12-step programs. Alcoholism is considered a disease for which there is no cure. There is only recovery. If I was ever an alcoholic, but haven't had a drink in thirty years, I'd still introduce myself at an AA meeting by saying, "Hello. My name is Rex and I am an alcoholic." This was opposed to the thinking in the Church at the time regarding the efficacy of full repentance, changing us from a sinful nature into one with no more disposition to do evil. To continue to refer to oneself as an alcoholic after giving up alcohol bordered on blasphemy. Also annoying to many LDS observers was the nearly heretical first step which states, "We came to admit that we were powerless over alcohol and that our lives had become unmanageable." At a time when "grace" was a dirty word and "free agency" had not yet been replaced by "moral agency," admitting powerlessness over something was nothing short of preaching false doctrine. To a recovering addict, these attitudes represent an odd sort of profoundly Mormon denial, denial being the main force that keeps an addict from entering recovery. So, when Colleen Bernhard says that the first commandment of the Mormon culture is, "Thou shalt avoid all appearance of evil," she is speaking to the individual, cultural, and sometimes doctrinal denial that Mormons suffer from regarding the existence of addiction among Mormons. This attitude is very powerful even today. As LDS Family Services units start to address these problems, they often face opposition even regarding the possibility that LDS people might actually include a few alcoholics and drug addicts. Because this problem is cultural and not doctrinal, as Sister Bernhard's remark suggests, it works its way into the mindset of everything we do, including our taste in art. I suppose that doctrine also works its way into the way we operat, but I think it has to filter through the culture first in order to reach our art. In other words, the doctrine that through the atonement, we can overcome even our sinful nature gets processed through a cultural standard that repudiates referring to ourselves as being anything that sounds sinful, like being an alcoholic. Some take it so far as to think that if someone writes about a Mormon alcoholic, alcoholism is being promoted. You don't become an alcoholic by reading the sad story of an alcoholic. To Thom's point, our fears about the way people dress also play into this denial. At last years Grammy's (I think), Jennifer Lopez wore a dress that I hear was little more than a bandage. The next Sunday in priesthood meeting, someone brought up the incident to blame it for the growing problem the Church is having with pornography addiction. I associate with a great many LDS men struggling against pornography addiction through my Clean-LDS and LDSR.org web resources. Pornography addiction is born in dysfunctional homes, not on television and not in literature. To be afraid of a woman who wears slacks to church or doesn't dress up to standards for a dance is a way of denying that we create our own evil in our often less-than-perfect homes. My oldest son, who is the least rebellious man I know, has been wearing shirts to church dances that don't button all the way down for a long time now. He was sent home from a dance a couple of weeks ago for wearing a perfectly modest shirt that only buttoned halfway down. It was too casual, according to the chaperones. Though how we appear does affect, in some degree, how we behave, it is the inner vessel that Jesus commands us to clean. This makes Colleen Bernhard's statement about the first commandment of the Mormon culture interesting as compared to the true first commandment. Some people would want us to shine up the outside, but we are asked to shine up the inside by loving God with all our heart, might, mind, and strength. How we appear will take care of itself. [MOD: Compiled from another post by Rex]: I've been giving an incorrect title. The book is: BERNHARD, Colleen, _He Did Deliver Me From Bondage_. [Rex Goode] ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kathleen Woodbury Subject: Re: [AML] Is the Desire to Write Genetic? Date: 28 Jul 2000 16:09:01 -0600 At 09:52 PM 7/27/00 EDT, Lisa Peck wrote: >As far as your question about desire to write being genetic, I feel like an >odd duck compared to others who have posted. I am definitely an odd duck in >my family. My father is in the medical field who has read maybe one fiction >book and no, it wasn't mine. My mother was a stay-at-home mother who believes >the only books worth reading are doctrinal and my brothers are all becoming >accountants and only read business books and think I torture myself every day >writing. As far as I know, all my ancestors were in the medical field or >happy homemakers. I keep looking around my family wondering where the heck I >came from. Well, you're not the only odd duck around, Lisa. My father could have been a great writer, and he wrote some, but he enjoyed doing the research more. His mother was into poetry, however. The few and relatively far between writers in my family tended to dabble at it, which still counts as writing, but none of them have plugged away at it as long as I have and actually managed to get paid to do it. Even odder, as ducks in my family go, I have a knack for mathematics and science--but my dad barely avoided flunking algebra, while my mom never even got that far. But we all love books (back to the literary aspects), even though we tend to read different kinds. I suspect something like that is more what we brought with us (and I have a theory about that which doesn't pertain to Mormon letters, so I won't go into it) than it is either nature or nurture. (Scientists can only discuss the latter two, but we know that we brought well-developed personalities with desires and talents all ready going strong when we came to this earth, right?) Kathleen Dalton-Woodbury workshop@burgoyne.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Darlene Young Subject: Re: [AML] SALINGER, _Catcher_ Date: 28 Jul 2000 16:55:05 -0700 (PDT) Add my name to the list of women who liked "Cather in the Rye" as teenagers. The best thing about it for me, though, was what it led to. When she heard that I had liked Catcher, my teacher recommended another Salinger book, "Fannie and Zooey." Reading this one was one of my first spiritual experiences with reading. I identified with it so much and was so moved by it that I re-read it (and all of Salinger's short stories as well) several times before I got to college. When I moved into Deseret Towers as a freshman and caught sight of "F & Z" on my unknown room-mate's bookshelf I knew she would be a kindred spirit. And she was. ===== Darlene Young __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN Pillar of Fire Brings Book of Mormon to Life: Covenant=20 Date: 28 Jul 2000 20:15:36 EDT Communications Press Release 27Jul00 A4 [From Mormon-News] Pillar of Fire Brings Book of Mormon to Life AMERICAN FORK, UTAH -- David Woolley has written what everyone has=20 been waiting for, an epic series based on The Book of Mormon, says=20 Robby Nichols, vice president of marketing for Covenant=20 Communications, Inc. Already, we have bookstores asking when=20 the=CFsecond novel is coming, and the first has yet to be released to=20 the general public. Pillar of Fire, (Covenant, 544 pages, $21.95) the first of nine epic=20 novels that follow the Book of Mormon prophet Lehi and his family to=20 the Promised Land. With over 2,000 copies of Pillar of Fire pre sold,=20 a record number for a first time fiction writer from Covenant, some=20 booksellers are predicting that this series will surpass sales of the=20 extremely popular "The Work & The Glory" series. "Pillar of Fire"=20 will be available in bookstores in the first of September. Why all the excitement about Pillar of Fire? Woolley did precise and=20 extensive research to make "Pillar of Fire" as historically accurate=20 as possible. He used information from the most recent and accurate=20 sources available, including research from F.A.R.M.S., writings from=20 Hugh Nibley, and many other books. Shirley Ricks, an editor at=20 F.A.R.M.S. who read an early version of the manuscript says, "'Pillar=20 of Fire' is a fascinating story that brings to life the world of Lehi=20 and his family." Richard Cracroft, professor in English at BYU,=20 called it "A work of first class fiction grounded in authenticity.=20 "Pillar of Fire" is a triumph of literary imagination and a=20 significant event in the history of Mormon fiction." "To read the Book of Mormon is to yearn to know these people, walk=20 the streets they walked, hear what they heard, and feel what they=20 might have felt," says Woolley. According to Shauna Nelson, managing editor of fiction at Covenant,=20 "'Pillar of Fire' is the perfect blend of fact and fiction. After=20 reading 'Pillar of Fire', you'll never read the Book of Mormon the=20 same way again." The story takes place in 601 B.C. The Babylonians have come and gone,=20 leaving Jerusalem plundered, weak, and broken. The power hungry=20 Elders in the city council have banished and murdered the prophets.=20 Anyone foolish enough to voice their support for the prophets has=20 been labeled a "Rekhabite," a dissenter, a traitor -- worthy of=20 death. In the midst of this turmoil, Jonathan the blacksmith has=20 moved his family from Sidon to Jerusalem, bringing with him knowledge=20 of the secret alloy, steel. Torn between heeding his wife's warnings=20 and a fear of not providing for his family, Jonathan becomes a pawn=20 in the hands of the Elders and Laban, the captain of the guard. Aaron, Jonathan's crippled son, receives a blessing and a promise of=20 healing, and is told that he will save the life of a prophet. When he=20 is hired by the oil merchant Lehi, Aaron's life=CFchanges forever. So=20 begins the first volume of "The Promised Land" series a sweeping epic=20 telling that chronicles the incredible beginnings of the Book of=20 Mormon. A woman who read a galley proof of the book said, "I dare you to read=20 it and not love it." So the challenge has been issued: read it and=20 love it. Established in 1958, Covenant Communications, Inc. is the largest=20 privately owned LDS publisher. Covenant publishes over 100 titles per=20 year including fiction, non fiction, children's books, software, and=20 audio products. To see how you can become a published author, read=20 the Author's Guidelines at http://www.covenant-lds.com/guide.html Source: Pillar of Fire Brings Book of Mormon to Life Covenant Communications Press Release 27Jul00 A4 >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: Re: [AML] DUTCHER, _God's Army_ Date: 28 Jul 2000 18:17:56 -0700 --============_-1247289015==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" [MOD: I'm going to allow Eric's reply to go through on this, but will be screening any further posts on this topic for a stronger literary connection. Just a reminder (to quote the List guidelines): "THE TOPIC IS LITERATURE. It is not politics, pet peeves, the general authorities, or the doctrines or policies of the LDS Church (except as they affect how Mormons read and write)."] >I'll tell you why I do it every time I see the passage brought up (about >avoiding the appearance of evil.) > >I have seen much harm done to innocent people in the name of this >scripture. I have witnessed the friends of my children sent away from a >dance in tear because of the misapplication of this passage (they >weren't wearing "modest" clothing.) I have seen my own son kept from >passing the sacrament as a deacon because he didn't wear a white shirt. >I've seen investigator women leave the church with a vow never to return >because someone mentioned to them that they can't wear pants in the >"Lord's house." While I agree with the principle of not being Pharisaic about things we don't need to be Pharisaic about, Elder Holland did say, in October 1995 conference, that young men ought to wear white shirts when passing the sacrament: "May I suggest that wherever possible a white shirt be worn by the deacons, teachers, and priests who handle the sacrament. For sacred ordinances in the Church we often use ceremonial clothing, and a white shirt could be seen as a gentle reminder of the white clothing you wore in the baptismal font and an anticipation of the white shirt you will soon wear into the temple and onto your missions. That simple suggestion is not intended to be pharisaic or formalistic. We do not want deacons or priests in uniforms or unduly concerned about anything but the purity of their lives. But how our young people dress can teach a holy principle to us all, and it certainly can convey sanctity. As President David O. McKay taught, a white shirt contributes to the sacredness of the holy sacrament" He didn't declare it as a MUST-do, but rather a SHOULD-do. But still, I wouldn't blame a bishop for wanting to enforce the practice, provided he made it clear to the kids beforehand, and made sure every one of them had a white shirt available to him so as to prevent embarrassment. Eric D. Snider -- *************************************************** Eric D. Snider www.ericdsnider.com "Filling all your Eric D. Snider needs since 1974." --============_-1247289015==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: [AML] DUTCHER, _God's Army_
I'll tell you why I do it every time I see the passage brought up (about
avoiding the appearance of evil.)

I have seen much harm done to innocent people in the name of this
scripture.  I have witnessed the friends of my children sent away from a
dance in tear because of the misapplication of this passage (they
weren't wearing "modest" clothing.) I have seen my own son kept from
passing the sacrament as a deacon because he didn't wear a white shirt.
I've seen investigator women leave the church with a vow never to return
because someone mentioned to them that they can't wear pants in the
"Lord's house."



While I agree with the principle of not being Pharisaic about things we don't need to be Pharisaic about, Elder Holland did say, in October 1995 conference, that young men ought to wear white shirts when passing the sacrament:

"May I suggest that wherever possible a white shirt be worn by the deacons, teachers, and priests who handle the sacrament. For sacred ordinances in the Church we often use ceremonial clothing, and a white shirt could be seen as a gentle reminder of the white clothing you wore in the baptismal font and an anticipation of the white shirt you will soon wear into the temple and onto your missions.
That simple suggestion is not intended to be pharisaic or formalistic. We do not want deacons or priests in uniforms or unduly concerned about anything but the purity of their lives. But how our young people dress can teach a holy principle to us all, and it certainly can convey sanctity. As President David O. McKay taught, a white shirt contributes to the sacredness of the holy sacrament"


He didn't declare it as a MUST-do, but rather a SHOULD-do. But still, I wouldn't blame a bishop for wanting to enforce the practice, provided he made it clear to the kids beforehand, and made sure every one of them had a white shirt available to him so as to prevent embarrassment.

Eric D. Snider


--
***************************************************
Eric D. Snider
www.ericdsnider.com

"Filling all your Eric D. Snider needs since 1974."
--============_-1247289015==_ma============-- - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] MERRILL, "God's Purpose for the Artist in the Gospel Plan" Date: 29 Jul 2000 02:15:56 -0600 Steve Perry wrote: > Love to know what you think about Keith Merrill's article, "God's Purpose > for the Artist in the Gospel Plan." > > http://www.meridianmagazine.com/arts/000629artists.html Couldn't find much to disagree with. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: Re: [AML] DUTCHER, _God's Army_ Date: 29 Jul 2000 11:56:41 -0600 (MDT) Rex Goode wrote: > > To Thom's point, our fears about the way people dress also play into this > denial. At last years Grammy's (I think), Jennifer Lopez wore a dress that I > hear was little more than a bandage. The next Sunday in priesthood meeting, > someone brought up the incident to blame it for the growing problem the > Church is having with pornography addiction. I associate with a great many > LDS men struggling against pornography addiction through my Clean-LDS and > LDSR.org web resources. Pornography addiction is born in dysfunctional > homes, not on television and not in literature. To be afraid of a woman who > wears slacks to church or doesn't dress up to standards for a dance is a way > of denying that we create our own evil in our often less-than-perfect homes. > Okay - we're way off the lit topic - but maybe I can bring it back around I don't agree with you on this - I have a friend who comes from a perfectly functional family (I know his family really well). He has a good marriage and a he and his wife get along great. Yet - he has a problem with porn. SO much that he has to ban himself from the internet because he knows that if he gets in front of a computer he knows he will start sufing for porn sights. He did not get this from a dysfuntional family. He was into bodybuilding for awhile, and used to read bodybuilding magazines. In them, he found scantily clad women in articles with such names as "sexiest women we want to bed" or whatever. He said that he grew to read the magazines just for those pictures. People like Jennifer Lopez on TV in their grammy costumes didn't help him much. He said that soon it became that everywhere he turned - magazine covers, TV shows, movies (know he won't watch R-rated movies anymore and is hesitant about PG-13) he saw women showing off as much of their bodies as they could get away with. He's "kicked" the habit by now, but he has had to ban himself from the net and no longer even goes to magazine racks. It wasn't a dysfunctional home that brought him to porn. It was the fact that he had a weakness and society likes to exploit that weakness. He knows he is still weak, but he hopes that the scripture in Ether about "weaknesses becoming our strengths" will work for him and that his weakness (porn) can become a strength in the long run. SO - in our literature, our discourse, or our rhetoric, we need to stop claiming that "THIS is the only reason something happens" or "my view is right and if that church leader sends me home because of his (wrong< of course) view that I am wearing something inappropriate, then he is automatically wrong because I AM ALWAYS RIGHT!!!" I feel the church leaders are an important check on the fact that I assume myself to be behaving correctly most of teh time, and I need someone to point out to me when I do something wrong I may not otherwise realize is wrong. I personally feel there has been to much villifying of the "other" (church leaders, chaprones, etc.) and not enough inward searching. One of the things I like about Literature is that it allows me to see things from other people's POV. I get outside myself and cannot remain entrenched in my "I am always right" view. However, some people only read or write literature that confirms their own viewpoint and justifies their own behavior. --Ivan Wolfe - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pup7777@aol.com Subject: [AML] _Cowbows and Angels_ (Free Screening) Date: 29 Jul 2000 15:30:35 EDT Dear AML Members, For the passed two years my husband has been producing the film COWBOYS AND ANGELS. He's trying to get it into the movie theaters. Right now he's at the point he needs fresh critical eyes on the movie. He's putting on a free screening of the film Monday July 31st at 7:00 Dakota 380 W Suite 200 S in Salt Lake City. We would love to see anyone who is interested and can make it on Monday night. A little about the film and the actors: A modern day cowboy trapped in lawyer's clothing and a simple country girl search for love through unexpected twists and turns of destiny which not only gives them a better understanding of themselves, but ultimately it leads them to a love blessed by the angels. COWBOYS AND ANGELS relates a story about the unexpected twists in life's path and a destiny that seems to be written by the angels. It stars Adam Trese, Mia Kirshner, Radha Mitchell, Hamilton Von Watts, and Carmen Llewellyn. It has recently been shown at the LA Film Festival. If you have any questions, call the director Gregory at 322-2664. Thanks! Lisa J. Peck - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Merlyn J Clarke Subject: Re: [AML] DUTCHER, _God's Army_ Date: 29 Jul 2000 23:05:50 -0400 At 05:51 PM 7/28/00 EDT, you wrote: >Thanks, Jonathan. I agree very much. > >It might be helpful to relate the context of Colleen Bernhard's statement. >She was speaking to a conference partially on the topic of addictions. > ============================================== Rex, Not to go off on a tangent here, but I'm curious. I seem to remember that when this thread started, someone indicated that Ms. Bernhard was speaking to an Evergreen International conference. If this is correct, I'm curious to know if she was speaking to the issue of homosexuality, and if so, is she suggesting that these principles be applied to homosexuals, ie, admit your addition (???), don't avoid "appearing" evil (in other words, come out of the closet and show your ugly self), and then try to overcome it as one overcomes alcoholism? Would Bernhard be advocating this? Would the church ever buy into this? Your comment that the church's position that alcoholics should not concede their helplessness in the face of the addiction would coincide with the position of the church not to refer to same sex oriented people as gays--though President Hinckley has stepped over this line more than once in public interviews. Merlyn Clarke (who mostly lurks) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] MERRILL, "God's Purpose for the Artist in the Gospel Date: 31 Jul 2000 09:42:13 -0700 I didn't get much out of Merrill's article as far as ficiton is concerned. = The article seemed aimed more at the visual arts. Fiction, by its length = and depth and complexity, is perhaps the most problematic of the arts for = Mormons, because the best fiction explores rather than affirms (IMMHO). A = painting or sculpture or cinematography can affirm without feeling so much = like propaganda, but fiction that exists primarily to affirm feels more = like propaganda. Eugene England's essay in the new _Dialogue_ is great on = this line of thinking (I don't have the issue with me or I'd quote some = here). Chris Bigelow * * * * * * Read my novella about Mormon missionaries at http://www1.mightywords.com/as= p/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=3DEB00016373. >>> Steve Perry 07/28 11:52 AM >>> Hi Listers, Love to know what you think about Keith Merrill's article, "God's Purpose for the Artist in the Gospel Plan." http://www.meridianmagazine.com/arts/000629artists.html=20 Steve P. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John L Needham Subject: [AML] Call for Manuscripts Date: 31 Jul 2000 12:30:20 -0400 A few months ago someone posted a call for novel-length manuscripts by a Mormon who works for a national trade press. If you kept a copy of that message, would you please forward it to me: jlneedham@mindpsring.com Thanks, John _______________________ John L. Needham Highland Mills, New York jlneedham@mindspring.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] Favorite Short Stories (Andrew's Poll) Date: 30 Jul 2000 23:10:06 JST I'm finally getting around to voting in my own poll. Short stories, remember? Well, the relatively few number of responses doesn't surprise me. As I said, short stories have a smaller following then novels, so the voting probably reflects our overall reading habits. Hear are my short story recommendations: It may not have been the "best" Mormon story that I've ever read, but the 1990s story that has had the greatest impact on me is Tim Slover's "Jim of Provo" in Sunstone, June 1998. Half of the story looks at a Job-like confrontation between God and the devil, seen through the humorously cynical eyes of the devil. The other half is told from the point of view of an emotionally disturbed BYU student over whose soul they are contending. It is a funny, sobering, beautiful little story. And it is gimmicky as can be. Other favorite stories include Margaret Young's stories "God on Donahue", the one about the woman who works as an actor at a Colonial Williamsburg type place (what is that story called?), and the one with an angel (?) with the "Repent in the Raw" sign. These are also somewhat gimmicky, so I guess I have discovered what appeals to me. For the funniest short story (creating a new category), I vouch for Kathryn Kidd's "Voucher and the Christmas Wars." in Christmas for the World, 1991, which is one of the ever-popular "Church Pageant Gone Wrong" genre of stories. In speculative fiction, my favorite is Lee Allred's. "For the Strength of the Hills," Writers of the Future XII, 1997. I hope he can get some more stories published. I also liked Russell Asplund's "The Unhappy Golem of Rabbi Leitsch" from that same collection. Also lots of the Card stories, although I can't think of one in particular right now. My favorite collections of the stories in the 1990s were basically by the same authors I picked in the novel category. Topping the list is Margaret Blair Young's _Love Chains_. This is really a fabulous collection of stories, not a clunker in the bunch. Immediately after finishing it I tried to push the book on my friends more than any other book of Mormon fiction I've ever read. The stories are well-crafted, deep and thought provoking, but still a good read. Thematically, they challenge the way I look at my faith and culture, helping me see levels I wasn't aware of before. I can't say enough about this book. Also, although my two favorite stories here are somewhat gimmicky, the collection as a whole is as solid a collection of stories as I've found in years. I found the recent comment about looking at her stories as a kind of magical realism intriguing. I hadn't thought of that. My next favorites (in descending order) start with Orson Scott Card's collections, most notably _Maps in a Mirror: The Short Fiction of Orson Scott Card_. It has been a long time since I read them, but I remember being totally engrossed. Card is another author who can mix thought provoking concepts with ripping good yarns. Most of the stories don't have Mormon characters or situations, which is fine-he can get preachy and condescending when he talks about the Church directly. Oh, I take that back, I loved the _Folk of the Fringe_ stories. Michael Fillerup's _Visions and Other Stories_ stories are perhaps not as engrossing as Young and Card's stories, but he is as good at penetrating into the hearts of Mormon characters as Young. He is excellent at interior dialogues. Phyllis Barber, _The School of Love_, University of Utah, 1990. Phyllis Barber, _How I Got Cultured: A Nevada Memoir_. University of Georgia, 1992. Phyllis Barber, _Parting the Veil: Stories from a Mormon Imagination_. Signature, 1999. I haven't been able to find How I Got Cultured, but I've read two stories from it in anthologies, and loved them. They were charming stories which take an only somewhat jaundiced look growing up in her odd Mormon family. I think they are the best things Barber has written, and I'd like to find the whole collection. I read about half of The School of Love stories, and I didn't find them very compelling, so I gave up on it. With a couple of exceptions, I have enjoyed the stories in Parting the Veil. John Bennion. Breeding Leah and Other Stories. Signature, 1991. Walter Kirn. My Hard Bargain, Knopf, 1990. Levi Peterson. Night Soil. Signature, 1990. I read all of these about when they came out, which was a while ago. I don't remember much about them, except that I liked them. Brian Evenson. Altmann's Tongue. Knopf, 1994. Obviously a very skilled writer. But his style and themes got a bit old after a while. I hope he uses his talents to explore some other areas. Brady Udall. Letting Loose the Hounds. Norton, 1998. Paul Rawlins. No Lie Like Love. U. of Georgia Press, 1996. Neither book held my attention too well, especially not Udall's. I only got a couple of stories into it. I know several of you have recommended the book, so I suppose I should give it another chance. Anthologies: _Bright Angels and Familiars_, ed. by Eugene England (Signature, 1992) is without a doubt the best one. I first got to know several of our better authors work for the first time through this collection. I also liked _Christmas for the World_, ed. by Curtis Taylor and Stan Zenk (Aspen, 1991). I wasn't expecting much from a Christmas collection, but this turned out to be very good. Most memorable were Kathryn Kidd's story that I listed as one of my favorites, good serious stories by John Bennion and Michael Fillerup, and two excellent missionary vignettes by Elouise Bell and Tom Rogers. As people have mentioned, the speculative fiction collection _Washed by a Wave of the Wind: Stories from the Corridor_, ed. by M. Shayne Bell (Signature, 1993) has a few good stories by Card, Bell, Wolverton, and Boyer, but it gets pretty weak after that. Turning Hearts: Short Stories on Family Life, ed. by Orson Scott Card and David Dollahite (Bookcraft, 1994). It sounded like a good idea, but I don't remember any of the stories except for a normally great story by Margaret Young, an interesting one by Jack Weyland, and a little morality tale by Card. The others apparently didn't made any impact on me. In Our Lovely Deseret: Mormon Fictions. ed by Robert Raleigh (Signature, 1998). I really can't recommend this collection, not so much because the stories range from cynical to belligerent to Mormon culture (which they do), but because most of them just aren't very interesting or well written, to my way of thinking. Well, the Robert Hodgson Van Waganor and especially the Levi Peterson stories were good, but they were really book excerpts, not stand-alone short stories. I also liked the one about Indian placement. And "Beyond a Certain Point," by David Brandt Cooper, actually worked pretty good as a horror genre story, with the enormity of the evil slowly dawning on the reader along with the protagonist. But the Evenson story didn't do much for me, and a lot of others were just boring. I bought _Once Upon A Christmastime_ (Deseret, 1997) because I was impressed by the authors listed (including Margaret Young, Benson Parkinson, and Kathryn Kidd), and I liked the Aspen Christmas book. Well, it turned out that the stories by those authors were the weakest things I had ever read by them. Not finding any interesting stories half way through it, I gave up on the collection. Okay, I'll wait another week for any other responses to dribble in, and then I'll close the voting and move on to a fresh question. Andrew Hall Nagareyama, Japan >Time for Andrew's Poll to turn its gaze to short stories. I'd like for you >to tell us what your favorite (I'll stay away from the word "best") Mormon >short stories and story collections from the 1990s have been. You can vote >in the following categories: >Mormon short story-general >Mormon short story-speculative fiction >Mormon short story-juvenile >Mormon short story collection (single author) >Mormon short story anthology (multiple authors) > >Of course you don't need to vote in all of the categories, just as many as >you want. And if you demand to create your own category, go ahead and try. > Individual stories need to have been published somewhere, like a >magazine, story collection, or web magazine, in 1990-1999. Any story by a >Mormon is applicable, as are stories about Mormons by non-Mormons. Also, >tell us, if you remember, where and when it was published. And again, >please vote. I don't have time to read everything, and I'd love to hear >your reccomendations. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tyler Moulton" Subject: Re: [AML] MN Pillar of Fire Brings Book of Mormon to Life: Date: 31 Jul 2000 11:37:14 -0600 Just one correction: pre-sales for Pillar of Fire were over 22,000 (not = 2,000). Tyler Moulton - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: eedh Subject: Re: [AML] Is the Desire to Write Genetic? Date: 31 Jul 2000 10:49:45 -0700 Kathleen Woodbury wrote: > I suspect something like that is more what we brought with us (and I have a > theory about that which doesn't pertain to Mormon letters, so I won't go > into it) than it is either nature or nurture. (Scientists can only discuss > the latter two, but we know that we brought well-developed personalities > with desires and talents all ready going strong when we came to this earth, > right?) I'd love to hear your theory. Can you tie it into Mormon letters somehow, or email me privately? -Beth Hatch - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ViKimball@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] MERRILL, "God's Purpose for the Artist in the Gospel Plan" Date: 31 Jul 2000 14:08:25 EDT In a message dated 7/31/00 12:33:09 PM Central Daylight Time, dmichael@wwno.com writes: << Couldn't find much to disagree with. -- >> Well, I found a few things to disagree with, but it will have to be posted later. Violet Kimball - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Darvell" Subject: [AML] Eric D. Snider and Pokemon Date: 31 Jul 2000 13:39:12 -0500 I get the distinct feeling from Eric D. Snider's recent newspaper column that he doesn't like Pokemon. Anybody else sense that? And so as to make this somewhat related to LDS literature, do you guys know that the Pokemon movies were translated from the original Japanese into English by a return missionary who served in Japan? So doesn't that kinda-sorta make the Pokemon movies LDS literature?! Darvell Hunt Las Vegas, NV (see article date 7/28/2000 at: http://www.heraldextra.com/dh/dharc2000.nsf/4b499bca6a38efe4852567a2004c781e /8725683900647b078725692a001f9414!OpenDocument&Highlight=2,pokemon ) _____________________________________________ Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! http://www.MyOwnEmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: Re: [AML] MERRILL, "God's Purpose for the Artist in the Gospel Date: 31 Jul 2000 13:41:47 -0500 I enjoyed reading the article, because it made me think. A few random thoughts: * I'm a bit disturbed when Keith Merrill seems to equate the Holy Ghost and the emotional reaction to a work of art. This happens in the paragraph where he describes the role of _Legacy_ and _The Testaments_ in reactivating inactive members, and says, "it was finally, the *feelings of art* that touched their hearts." Yes, I agree that works of art can invite the Spirit. I also believe that works of art can create a rush of sentiment or emotion through purely artistic or narrative means, such as the manipulation of images. I'm concerned that in the Church, we sometimes confuse one for the other. No, I don't know a way to make a clear distinction between them--but as artists and lovers of art, I think we need to seriously consider the problem. * Merrill seems to show some of the wistfulness I occasionally see in artists for greater Church sponsorship of the arts. Personally, I don't think that's such a good idea, though I can understand why dramatic artists and especially movie producers might wish for it, considering the large budget that's required to "do art" in those venues. But I think we're better off without looking to the Church--or even BYU--as primary sponsors of Mormon art. Additionally, I think there's a flaw in taking the relative level of institutional support for art within the Church as a sign of art's overall importance in God's scheme of things, as Merrill seems to do. This appears to reflect an idea that if anything is really worthwhile, the Church will organize a program in support for it--which, to me at least, seems to go against the spirit of D&C 58:26-28. I think that whatever the role of art is in the plan of salvation, it's been left up to individual artists--and for all of us, individually, as artists and lovers of art--to exercise our agency in developing what that role ought to be. * Merrill quotes from someone, I'm not sure who, who says that "the greatest artist is always a devout man." Historically, I think this simply isn't true. Many examples, yes--but a good many counterexamples too. (Part of this, of course, gets into the slippery matter of definitions--both of "devout" and of "greatest artist.") * I do like Merrill's attention to the question of what the creation of art does for the artist, including his posing the question of the value of mediocre art. I think there's a danger in leaving art to the "professional" caliber artist--which, to my mind, distorts what art should be: that is, not a separate activity, but a part of each life, both in its enjoyment and in its creation. At the same time, we also want to encourage works of Mormon art to achieve the highest possible standards. There's a whole set of issues here that we've talked about before on this List, and which I expect we'll talk about again--because I don't think there are any easy answers here (by which I mean answers that are [a] easily stated, [b] easily applied, and [c] appropriate to all circumstances). * I found the quotations from Neil A. Maxwell very interesting, and wish the article had included a reference for this. It's possible that I've read the Maxwell article before, but in any event, I'd like to read it again. And I'll leave it at that. Thanks, Steve, for drawing our attention to this article. Jonathan Langford Speaking for myself, not the List Steve wrote: >Hi Listers, > >Love to know what you think about Keith Merrill's article, "God's Purpose >for the Artist in the Gospel Plan." > >http://www.meridianmagazine.com/arts/000629artists.html > >Steve P. jlangfor@pressenter.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] _Real World_ Actress Suspended from BYU Date: 31 Jul 2000 14:42:34 -0500 Follow-up on our List discussion of the LDS girl on _Real World_, the MTV program: Just read an AP article from my local (St. Paul, Minnesota) newspaper saying that Julie Stoffer, the single LDS girl from Delafield, Wisconsin who spent five months on the program _Real World_, has been suspended from BYU for fall semester for having lived during that time in the same house with a member of the opposite sex. Jonathan Langford - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "mjames_laurel" Subject: Re: [AML] Eric D. Snider and Pokemon Date: 31 Jul 2000 12:59:49 -0600 Darvell wrote: > And so as to make this somewhat related to LDS literature, do you guys knowthat the Pokemon movies were translated from the original Japanese into > English by a return missionary who served in Japan? > > So doesn't that kinda-sorta make the Pokemon movies LDS literature?! Those Mormons! They do get around. On an unrelated note from the music world (which is very distantly related to literature) I'm told (by a 12 year old, so who knows) that The Aquabats are all LDS returned missionaries, and that at least one of the N Sync and/or Backstreet Boys is also LDS. The Aquabats write some very weird lyrics, which I'm told is part of their appeal. I don't know much about the other groups (except what can be gleaned from the posters covering bedroom walls) but I don't recall seeing them at the Pearl Awards... Laurel S. Brady > - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rex Goode" Subject: [AML] Pornography (was: DUTCHER, _God's Army_) Date: 31 Jul 2000 15:06:08 EDT >I don't agree with you on this - I have a friend who comes from a perfectly >functional family (I know his family really well). He has a good marriage >and a >he and his wife get along great. > >Yet - he has a problem with porn. This is becoming a challenge to keep on-topic. The important on-topic portion of this discussion, to me, is whether pornography addiction is born out of pop culture or in the home. Art does not cause pornography addiction. Art is just art, and we've talked about that definition endlessly here. Some have even made a case for soft porn like Playboy being art and not pornography. You have only offered one anecdotal example of someone you believe did not get his pornography addiction from his childhood environment, but could not really state for sure that it was caused by skimpy dresses on Jennifer Lopez. I could offer more anecdotes than anyone on this list has time to read. I run two web resources for LDS pornography addicts and have had conversations with literally hundreds of them. I have done research and collaborated efforts with professionals in this area. I can't say that your anecdote's subject's experience and perception is invalid, but it is far from what most experience. In addition, it doesn't really matter how well you know the family. There could be dysfunction that not even the members of the family would recognize. We call this denial. Dysfunction does not have to be blatant to cause addiction. The family itself would not know it exists, so it is impossible for anyone to say, "There is no dysfunction in that family," and say it convincingly. More than that, it could not be said of any family and be true. Dysfunction in the family comes with the territory of even having a family. By blaming television, visual arts, music, and yes, even literature, for one's addiction to pornography is a way of escaping personal responsibility. Media just sits there. It is inanimate. Why some people pick up certain kinds and consume it is found in the individual, not in the media itself. Would Jennifer bare so much to the world if it didn't increase her popularity? She is not the cause of the fact that such conditions exist. She is merely exploiting those conditions for her own gain. She is not the cause of your friend's condition. His alone is the responsibility for that. [Rex Goode] ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: Re: [AML] Eric D. Snider and Pokemon Date: 31 Jul 2000 19:10:38 GMT >I get the distinct feeling from Eric D. Snider's recent newspaper column >that he doesn't like Pokemon. Anybody else sense that? > > >(see article date 7/28/2000 at: >http://www.heraldextra.com/dh/dharc2000.nsf/4b499bca6a38efe4852567a2004c781e >/8725683900647b078725692a001f9414!OpenDocument&Highlight=2,pokemon ) > > The column is more easily found at http://www.ericdsnider.com/snide/snide118pokemon.php3 . The Daily Herald's Web site is interesting in that it is actually less convenient than just going through stacks of old newspapers randomly to find what you're looking for. Eric D. Snider ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: Re: [AML] MERRILL, "God's Purpose for the Artist in the Gospel Date: 31 Jul 2000 13:14:10 -0600 (MDT) > Steve Perry wrote: > > > Love to know what you think about Keith Merrill's article, "God's Purpose > > for the Artist in the Gospel Plan." > > > > http://www.meridianmagazine.com/arts/000629artists.html > > Couldn't find much to disagree with. > > -- > D. Michael Martindale > dmichael@wwno.com I found a little nit... he claims art crossed language barriers. But on my mission, i found myself confronted with art by Laotions that took a good few months before I could begin to comprhend it, and I found that many Laos were confounded by American art. Colors and shapes had totally or slightly different meanings to their Asian mindset. So how does art cross language and culture when so much art depends on a cultural context? --Ivan Wolfe - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rex Goode" Subject: Re: [AML] DUTCHER, _God's Army_ Date: 31 Jul 2000 15:33:55 EDT To answer Merlyn's question: Yes, Ms. Bernhard was speaking at the Evergreen International conference Saturday evening fireside about four years ago. While her topic was addiction, it should not be assumed that she was stating a case for homosexuality to be a matter of addiction. The format of the Evergreen conferences begins on Friday morning and ends on Saturday evening with a fireside that is generally intended to be a break from the overall topic of the conference, which is homosexuality. The Saturday evening speakers address other issues, giving participants a much-needed break. Colleen Bernhard's work is not directed at same-sex attraction at all. Her book is used for addiction recovery of all kinds and it is not the position of Evergreen International that same-sex attraction is an addiction, nor is it the Church's position. See _The Ensign_, October 1995, Elder Dallin H. Oaks, "Same Gender Attraction" for the reference to not using "gay" as a noun to refer to persons struggling with same-sex attraction. He asserted this on a purely doctrinal point that we are not necessarily what we do. As you noted, President Hinckley has not followed this counsel to the letter, but the last time I checked, he wasn't obligated to. His usage may open it up for us to write about the topic without feeling quite so restricted as with Elder Oaks' suggested grammatical inhibitions. This matter of same-sex attraction identity has been the topic of an article I did for AML-List a couple of years ago. I believe it is still available on the archives, but I don't know where. Basically, I am in favor of the thing you suggest, but not as a parallel to addiction per se. Addiction is fueled by shame, and so the antidote to addiction is self-expression, usually done in support groups like Alcoholics Anonymous, but also in art (see my article). While I would not agree that same-sex attraction is an addiction, one only needs to look closely at the behavior of many who are same-sex attracted to see a highly addictive pattern emerge. Explanations for why vary. Some say that the straight world forces us into that behavior by the restrictions placed on us. Others see that the kind of behavior that comes with homosexuality lends to addiction. It is a question far from resolved and not likely on-topic for AML-List. Gay people find great relief in the "coming out" process. I have suggested a different process for homosexuals like myself who opt to remain faithful to the teachings of the Church that I call "coming forward." The main reason I prefer a different term is that "coming out" carries a connotation of more than just announcing to the world that you're gay, but also involves entering the realm of homosexual experience, or in other words, having your first sexual encounter. Coming forward is more like what I have done, which is to stand up and say, "Yes, this is something I feel. I accept the identity without entering into a relationship." Whether I come out or come forward, the process of self-expression is a relief. Whether coming forward is private, as most of us do it, or public, like I have done, the benefits are the same. Whether I follow the way most homosexuals go or blaze my own trail through the perils of heterosexuality, having the freedom to express myself in the written word will make my choice easier to bear, particularly since there is no easy choice I could have made. [Rex Goode] ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike South Subject: [AML] Aquabats (was: Eric D. Snider and Pokemon) Date: 31 Jul 2000 14:02:12 -0600 Laurel S. Brady wrote... > On an unrelated note from the music world (which is very distantly related > to literature) I'm told (by a 12 year old, so who knows) that The Aquabats > are all LDS returned missionaries, and that at least one of the N Sync > and/or Backstreet Boys is also LDS. While I don't know about the Backstreet Boys or N Sync (and I say that with some pride), many--but not all--of the Aquabats are indeed LDS. I was a member of a band that played with them fairly often a few years ago and I got to know most of them. The lead singer and several others are returned missionaries and are quite active in the church. The band often makes two or three appearances in Utah when they're touring because they get such a good response. While their music isn't religious by any stretch of the imagination, their show is just good, clean, goofy fun. I don't think they'll be nominated for a Pearl award anytime soon. --Mike South - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jason Steed" Subject: Re: [AML] Pornography (was: DUTCHER, _God's Army_) Date: 31 Jul 2000 13:14:06 PDT Rex wrote: By blaming television, visual arts, music, and yes, even literature, for one's addiction to pornography is a way of escaping personal responsibility. Media just sits there. It is inanimate. Why some people pick up certain kinds and consume it is found in the individual, not in the media itself. Jason questions: I agree with a lot of what you say. But I think this is just a tad extreme. You're suggesting a certain stance goes too far in escaping personal responsibility; but doesn't your stance go a bit too far in removing responsibility from those who produce the material in question? Yes, giving in to temptation is finally the tempted's responsibility. But I'm not sure the tempter is completely blameless. This is why writing scenes of sex or violence (etc.) is such a huge issue for those of us (i.e. Mormons) with a strong sense of moral accountability. To what extent does our stewardship reach? We don't want to say that the writing of a rape scene _causes_ rape. But I'm not sure we want to say that it has no effect whatsoever, either. After all, if we say that, the reverse must be true-- In other words, while the scriptures don't _cause_ one to accept and believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ--but do we want to say they have NO effect, that they're "just sitting there," powerless and without contribution to our thoughts and actions? Jason ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: Re: [AML] Aquabats (was: Eric D. Snider and Pokemon) Date: 31 Jul 2000 13:18:01 PDT > > > On an unrelated note from the music world (which is very distantly >related > > to literature) I'm told (by a 12 year old, so who knows) that The >Aquabats > > are all LDS returned missionaries, and that at least one of the N Sync > > and/or Backstreet Boys is also LDS. > >While I don't know about the Backstreet Boys or N Sync (and I say that with >some pride), I will say with some degree of shame that I am unable to find any evidence of anyone from NSync or Backstreet Boys being LDS. This includes some Internet searching, as well as some simple logic: As much as both bands have been in the media over the past year, surely some Utah publication would have discovered the fact by now. I'm pretty "up" on pop culture and entertainment, and definitely aware of what's being printed in Utah, and I've seen nothing about it. Put it on the shelf next to the "Steve Martin is Mormon" rumor. And yeah, the "Pokemon" movie is really awful. Eric D. Snider ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: eedh Subject: [AML] Re: _Real World_ Actress Suspended From BYU Date: 31 Jul 2000 13:25:37 -0700 The lead story (on the Home page) of the online BYU DAILY UNIVERSE is about Julie Stoffer's suspension. You can find it at -Beth Hatch - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: debbro@voyager.net Subject: Re: [AML] Eric D. Snider and Pokemon Date: 31 Jul 2000 16:26:10 -0400 and with that review, Eric has another fan. Eric, you are now bookmarked. I laughed so hard, that if I had had coke in my mouth, it would have been on my screen and keyboard. I have never seen any pokemon cartoons, movies, or played the games, but I still can't stand the concept. I have to be heavily persuaded to contribute to my step- sons collection of polemon crap, and I usually buy it while wearing a disguise. Debbie Brown The column is more easily found at http://www.ericdsnider.com/snide/snide118pokemon.php3 . The Daily Herald's Web site is interesting in that it is actually less convenient than just going through stacks of old newspapers randomly to find what you're looking for. Eric D. Snider - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: [AML] Dinner Thursday in SLC Date: 31 Jul 2000 16:22:18 -0700 During Sunstone later this week, some of us are planning to meet for dinner on Thursday evening, Aug. 3rd, at 6:30. Whether you are attending Sunstone or not, you're invited to join us. The place, which is within easy walking distance of the Marriott: Ginza Japanese Cuisine & Sushi Bar 209 W 200 South Phone: 801-322-2224 We will finish in time to walk back to Sunstone for the 8:00 evening panel on _God's Army_. (Note: If this restaurant is too busy, we will go around the corner to Red Rocks or somewhere else close. In any event, meet at Ginza at 6:30 and we will try there first.) * * * * * * Read my novella about Mormon missionaries at http://www1.mightywords.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp?theisbn=EB00016373. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Perry Subject: Re: [AML] Aquabats (was: Eric D. Snider and Pokemon) Date: 31 Jul 2000 16:44:12 -0600 > From: Mike South > Subject: [AML] Aquabats (was: Eric D. Snider and Pokemon) > > I don't think they'll be nominated for > a Pearl award anytime soon. Ya just never know.... Steve P. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Eric D. Snider and Pokemon Date: 31 Jul 2000 18:52:54 -0600 I may be the only adult in the western United States who actually likes Pokemon. I watch the Saturday morning cartoon, play the card game, happily buy toys, posters, and Pikachu pillows for my kids, and find the fundamental message of the movies to be positive and uplifting. (One could argue that the whole concept of Pokemon training is exploitative, but then one would have to point out that the Iron Giant actually *was* a weapon, and that Saint Disney apparently hated adult women.) I can't argue about the pure quality of the animation, except to say that it's consistent throughout the franchise, and thus deserves no special rant on this particular attention. It looks like Pokemon fills the same ecological niche in Eric's heart that Barney, Cow and Chicken, and Teletubbies fill in mine--to each his own. But I will argue that the alleged poor quality of the animation is a choice of the genre, not an effort to cheap out on production. I'll also suggest that the Japanese (generally) do a *great* deal more with story, theme, and symbol in their animation than Americans do. Anime is not everyone's cup of tea, but there's much to be appreciated (and defended), and I think it's far from the universal evil Eric suggests. Pokemon in particular is certainly no more cynical than those fine American efforts of media exploitation such as X-Men, Star Wars, or Friends. This opposing viewpoint brought to you by the letters YMMV, and the number 3. Scott Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rexgoode" Subject: Re: [AML] Pornography (was: DUTCHER, _God's Army_) Date: 31 Jul 2000 18:30:24 -0000 Jason, I appreciate your question. I do not exonerate producers of pornographic material in the least, when it comes to the responsibility for the availability of their material. However, in dealing with one's own personal addiction to pornography, it does not pay in the least to point to its high availability as an excuse for having indulged. If I produce pornography, I will surely reap what I sow. Of that I have no doubt, and my comments aren't offered to excuse. If I consume pornography, I will also reap what I sow. As restrictions have relaxed over the years, and we find now that what used to be an R-rated movie is now a PG-13, and what used to be censored from child-accessible television is readily available, pornography addiction is on the rise. Yet, as the situation worsens, you will still find those who are prone to indulge and those who are not. To think at this point that we can stem the tide of inappropriate material flowing into the nation's homes is considerably naive. I don't want to discourage anyone from trying. Yet, when the inevitable happens, what will make the difference in our children's lives, and whether or not they are swept up, will be the preparation we provide in the home. I believe that what pornography purveyors do is wrong. No consumer, however, can say that it was the photographer's fault he looked. While I'm clearing certain things up, I also want to state that even though I believe pornography addiction is a product of upbringing, that parents should also not be to blame for the actions of their children. How I react to my environment, for good or ill, is my own responsibility. I look at responsibility this way. I am responsible for myself and to others. It is an important distinction. I can only be culpable for that which I do. I am, however, also responsbile to serve others, to lift others, and to not encourage others to sin. No matter what I do to you, your sins are your own. How you deal with what I do is your responsibility alone. If what I do is wrong, I will pay. You will pay for how you react. We all reap what we sow. Rex Goode - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm