From: "REWIGHT" Subject: Re: [AML] AML Writing Group/Feedback Wanted Date: 31 Jul 2001 14:45:30 -0500 Rex, >From my experience on that list, no one ends up writing one review a week. Most people don't write a review until the entire novel is up which takes several weeks. If you keep up with it and just read the one download a week, it's really no problem. Come check it out. Anna ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2001 8:29 AM > > D. Michael Martindale wrote: > > > Or take a look below my signature and join an existing one. > > Thanks. I had not see that. I will consider it, although I'm probably not a > candidate for it right now. One review a week is more than I can manage at > present, but I will keep it in mind for the future. > > Rex - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "REWIGHT" Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 31 Jul 2001 15:25:19 -0500 > > Since we've beaten up on poor Jack Weyland recently, I might as well > beat a little more on him, and not bloody another author. (Remember, I'm > talking about a Jack from twenty years ago. I haven't read much of him > recently. Maybe he's better now.) In the world of Jack Weyland, the > Mormon boy meets a non-Mormon girl, and literally days later, she's > taking the discussions from the missionaries. Of course she ends up > baptized. This just doesn't happen in real life. It happens all the time. I was baptised three weeks after my first initial contact with the missionaries. I never drank, smoked, and at the time, I was a 17 year old virgin. Does that make me unbelievable? Anna - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Craig Huls Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 31 Jul 2001 21:45:17 -0500 Thom Duncan wrote: > > > Serious considerations. Suppose you do get the book published, and it makes a > move sale. You, as a new writer, would have NO rights over the final film > version. > > Thom > Thom.... Maybe I am really naive. I certainly have no experience to speak to, but is there any reason the writer can't have an attorney when negotiating the contract with specific clauses indicating damages if the movie takes a twist outside the contract? It would seem in this litigious society we live in today the writer ought to have something to say about it. Craig Huls - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] Re: UDALL, _The Miracle Life of Edgar Mint_ (Review) Date: 01 Aug 2001 03:27:56 +0000 I agree, there is a lot of bad language in the book, and a small but signifigant amount of sexual content. I am a strong supporter of reviews including guides to questionable content, so I should have been more explicit in my warnings, especially in a review intended for a Mormon audiance. I was never upset at the author for his use of the language, sex, and violence, however, becuase it was not exploitative, it fit in logically with story, and it was leavened with humor. The foul language, for example, is usually presented in the context of Edgar's fascination with language in general. Edgar's interest in sex once he becomes 14 or so, while definately beyound the pale for many Mormon readers, was consistent with what is going through the minds of your average Mormon 14 year old (although his actions certainly are extereme). Thayer's _Summer Fire_ is the only other Mormon novel I can think of that takes on a teenage boy's sexual confusion and frustration in a similiarly honest way (maybe some of Card's early books too). It is interesting to compare it to (former Mormon) Walter Kirn's recent novel _Thumbsucker_. Both have sections towards the end of the books where the young protaganist joins the Church, with some interestingly similar results. But I like Udall's book _a lot_ better. Kirn has that weird "Mormon Eden" chapter (the one that appeared in the New Yorker a few years ago), which has a very unbelievable and distastful sexual scene, while the similar scene in Edgar Mint is quite believable, laced with humor, and doesn't really harm our affection for the charachters involved. >Andrew: > >Edgar does not dwell on the slights he receives, but we see a > >few of them, like the day he is called to stand before a > >Sunday School class as a visual example of a cursed race. > Chris: >The teacher doesn't just identify the Lamanites as cursed. >When Edgar is in front of the class, the teacher says: "Edgar >here, in his own way, is a relic of those Book of Mormon >times, . . . Out in the world they might call him an American >Indian, but we know better. In truth he is as much a Lamanite >as the prophet Samuel or King Lamoni." (Even this episode has >sexual references that would violate AML-List guidelines if >the full passage from the book were to be quoted here.) > I think if you look at the whole scene, you'd have to admit that this would not be a positive experience for an American Indian. Let's expand the quote: (p. 276-7) "Brother Hughes made much of the fact that the Lamanites had not followed the will of God and had therefore been marked with a curse: dark skin. 'The darkness in their hearts was matched only by the darkness of their skin,' Brother Hughes said. 'Eventually they became so evil, so wild and bloodthirsty, that they completely eradicated the Nephites, wiped them off the earth. Those Lamanites are the ancestors of the people today known as the American Indians. Edgar, will you come stand up here next to me?' I stared down at my shirt as if I was counting its buttons He asked again, I ignored him, and he finally came and took my arm and led me up to the front. 'Edgar here, in his own way, is a relic of those Book of Mormon times, Brother Hughes said, gripping my elbow, holding me in place. My face felt hot enough to ignite paper. 'Out in the world they might call him an American Indian, but we know better. In truth he is as much a Lamanite as the prophet Samuel or King Lamoni." . . . After I was allowed to sit down, I heard Scotty Webster whisper loudly, 'Hey, Edgar is the Lamanites and we'll be the Nephites and we'll have us a war!' I looked around, feeling very vulnerable, but nobody was taking up Scotty's call to arms." Now, the parts that Chris and I are cutting out describe the more pressing source of Edgar's embarassment, the fact that during the lesson he was experiencing frustrated sexual tension brought on by looking at the back of the girl sitting in front of him. Not a rare occurance for 14 year olds. Still, I think the content of the lesson is also a major source of his embarrasment. Udall is playing a sublte trick of misdirection, keeping the more important issue issue in the background of the narrator's mind. Chris: >In the early part of the book, one of Edgar's benefactors >says: "Lord help us this world is a horrible place." I >think that at least the first part of the book makes a strong >case that he's right. There is some brightening towards the >end, but we are still left with the protagonist saying: "I >can see no divine purpose behind the tangle of this existence, >no ordering hand. It is all a mystery, or more accurately, a >mess." Dostoyevsky is one of my favorite authors, and I do >see beauty in the grunginess he portrays. Some of Udall's >choices have made it harder for me to see the corresponding >beauty in _Edgar Mint_. > True, Edgar's relationship with God and his faith in Him as one who is looking out for His children is pretty strongly damaged by the end. But despite all he has gone through, Edgar has become a good person, willing to take his place in the community and in a family, to make his own little corner a better place. Not a particularly happy ending, but still quite hopeful, and for me, satisfying. Andrew Hall Pittsburgh, PA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: RE: [AML] Editing Literature Date: 31 Jul 2001 21:51:55 -0600 Let me first say that I am delighted John Williams has finally joined a discussion. John Williams is one of the smartest people I know. I always feel smarter when I hang out with him. John Williams: > >To me the artistic integrity argument takes on a very different tone >>when you apply the same editing techniques to a book. Say I want my >>kids to read _Catcher in the Rye_ but without all those nasty words. >>So I take my copy of _Catcher_ to my local book doctor, who for a fee >>will use a razor blade to cut out all the objectionable words and >>scenes. How vile to treat a book in such a way. > >Actually, I think it's pretty much the same. The real problem with editing a >work of art is not whether editing is good or bad, but rather WHO is doing the >editing. If someone else thinks it's either bad or too mature for me to read, >and they eliminate certain portions without my consent, then, yes, you have a >kind of Orwellian nightmare emerging. But if I decide to expurgate part of a >text, for my own reading, then I certainly have a right to do so. The >distinction is that I can't force that expurgation onto someone else. In >fact, I would argue that there is probably something wrong with a reader who >doesn't make ANY sort of editorial decisions while he or she reads, whether >it's deciding when that portion of the text is no longer interesting or >valuable, or else just blindly accepting everything one reads. Some artists will cry that people should not change their works of art around, but the fact is, once you're selling your art for money, it becomes a product, as if it were a blender or a muffin. Certainly no one has the right to barge into the Louvre (or the Met or wherever) and deface the original Mona Lisa. But if someone buys a print of it, it's his to do whatever he wants with it. It is very rare to find any work of art that does not become "edited" in some way. Movies are edited for television, books are condensed into Reader's Digest versions and/or made into movies, paintings are badly reproduced onto postcards, plays have all their "objectionable" dialogue excised by conservative theaters, songs get sampled by rap artists or used as underscore in commercials or parodied by "Weird Al" Yankovic. Eventually, everything has its dignity stripped away, if not in some official capacity, then by the people who buy it and have their way with it. An author might write a book and insist it never be made into a film, never be abridged, never be put into paperback, never be translated into another language -- in other words, insist it remain exactly as he wrote it. And people can still buy it, read it, misinterpret it, misunderstand it, retell it poorly to their friends, get offended by things the author did not mean to be offensive, and place the wrong emphasis on a supporting character when the author intended for the main character to be the important one. The reader may treat the book itself like a sacred object, and revere the author -- but he has still "edited" the book, with the red pen of prejudice in the margins of his mind. (Thank you. Thank you very much.) > >I cannot stand to see a book mutilated. When I get a book out of the >>library, I flip through all the pages and set all the bent corners > >straight. I used to be the same way with records. There was just something cool about watching them spin around on the turntable, seeing the slight wobbliness of the needle, etc., etc. I've always hated cassettes. They're so boring. > >Heck, if you find the scene that objectionable, then don't buy the >>film in the first place. Even if you edit out the scene, you still >>know the scene existis. > >Here you have an interesting argument. I would add only two things: (1) The >simple rule of supply and demand indicates that if enough people were editing >their films, and if producers knew about it, then they would make edited >versions. Or, one could argue, these people have a personal agenda to make >immoral films, in which case, they will keep making bad films, whether you buy >them or not, and your personal boycott makes no difference anyway. Personal agendas aside, I doubt they would make edited versions of their films available. For one thing, it would be seen by their peers as an artistic sell-out. For another thing, why should they? If people -- even millions of people -- are buying the videos and then having them edited somewhere ... well, end of story. The filmmakers see this: Millions of people are buying my videos. Wonderful! They MIGHT reason that there might be even MORE people out there who would like them edited but don't want to go to the trouble and so therefore aren't buying them at all. But I think my first point (artistic sell-out) would prevent the filmmakers from catering to this segment of the population. > (2) How >far does one carry this boycott? You don't like the fact that Barnes and >Nobles sells books on abortion, so you don't ever shop there? Apples and oranges, my good friend John Williams. We're talking about boycotting ONE particular film because it has content we object to. The parallel to your example would be boycotting an entire video store because it carries one movie we don't like, and I don't think anyone's suggesting that. > > >>Within a few >>years, you will only find DVDs on the shelves. And a few more years >>after that, theaters will have digital projectors that no longer use >>easily editable films. How will you then edit out the scenes? Pay >>someone to burn a new DVD one for you? > >I don't own a DVD player, but as I understand it, you can quite easily program >your DVD player to skip whatever parts you don't like (please correct me if >I'm wrong here). In fact, it might even be EASIER to edit with DVD than VHS, >since you don't have to actually cut anything. Well, not exactly. (You really should get a DVD player.) It is easy to skip ahead to the next "chapter" (usually the next scene, typically divided up in segments of three to six minutes each). So, yes, if something comes up that is clearly a sex scene, hitting the "chapter" button would most likely get you to the "next morning" scene, or whatever comes after it. I believe on some models you actually can program it to play the movie in a particular sequence -- play chapters 1-20, then 22-30, for example, skipping the evil chapter 21 -- but I wouldn't say this is "easily" done. I'm quite the DVD snob, and I don't know how to do it on mine, or if mine even can do it. And then, we're not "editing" the movie in the way most people are talking about. With the edited videos, something has actually been physically done -- tape cut out, or portions erased, or whatever. With the DVD, the offending matter would still exist (and the kids could get to it); we'd just be skipping over it. Which is a form of "editing," I know, but different from what most people consider to be editing. Eric D. Snider - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paris ANDERSON" Subject: [AML] re: Mission of Mormon Letters? Date: 31 Jul 2001 21:59:42 -0600 I appreciate the view of the person who lives in that rural mid-west = town and writes for her local newspaper. Being one of the few Mormons = around (if I understand correctly) she feels she has to stand up and = give a good example . . . and teach if the opportunity presents itself. = I understand that feeling, and would probably do exactly the same thing = if I lived where she does. The reason I object to a "mission" or even = to the discussion of what "our' mission should be--as Mormon writers--is = that some things are important to me and others are not. The things = that are important cause me to write stories. If the idea of a mission = in our writing is even discussed, then I feel I am being told what = should be important to me. And quite frankly, some of the things I've = read on this list are, to me, very unimportant. Some of the things I've = read seem so foreign I wonder if I'm reading computer code. The = philosophies that are uniquely Mormon (or that we think are unique) are, = in my estimation, as true and comforting as they ever were. But they're = not what is important to me write now. What is important is life. What = is important is how to accomplish this thing called life. That is what = makes great literature. That is why THE BACKSLIDER and HUCK FINN are = such great books. They help readers to understand a little bit of how = to accomplish this thing called life. I believe happiness is the most = important thing in life, and that is what I want to motivate me. I've = had enough sorrow, and I know it can kill. Happiness is innocent. It = never hurt anybody. Paris Anderson - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] LDS Publishers vs. National Publishers Date: 31 Jul 2001 22:44:55 -0600 Anna Wight wrote: > > I believe Proffit and Wight and Hume can reach both their literary and > > their financial (read "copies sold") goals in whatever markets they > > pursue. > >Just out of curiousity (here's my geneology side kicking in) who is Wight? I was thinking of you. You write, right? Or did I get that wrong? Scott Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Mission of Mormon Letters? Date: 31 Jul 2001 22:46:49 -0600 Terry L Jeffress wrote: >We may have the talented people who could tell these stories, but I >don't believe that we have a broad-minded enough culture willing and >ready to receive these stories. I think we should tell the stories >anyway, and allow history to filter out the stories that get retold. I guess I disagree with you on this one, but only partially. I think the Mormon readership has been reluctant to accept the expose-style story that pretends to reveal what Mormons "really" think and believe, and that reluctance has led to a quick rejection of other stories that contain powerful statement of unorthodox views expressed in the name of Mormonism. But the fact that Mormons flock so readily to the morality plays offered by most of Covenant's authors and a fair number of DB's as well, suggests that it's not the presence of sin or error on the part of Mormon characters that's the problem. Mormons seem to accept that willingly enough as long as the characters recognize sin for what it is and attempt to resolve those problems. I think the issue comes back to what's being published. As you point out, the only LDS-oriented publishers who are on the average Mormon's radar screen are Signature, best known for its critical/anti stance against traditional cultural Mormonism, and a number of small or niche publishers like Cedar Fort that have a limited acceptance and impact on the total LDS market. But to me, the simple existence of a press like Cedar Fort that publishes a wide variety of explicitly LDS titles that range from pioneer adventure stories to modern spy thrillers is evidence that Mormon readers want more than they're getting from the Big 2.5 LDS publishers. Yes, many of these titles are small-run and a distressing number of them are author-subsidized, but they sell better than you might imagine. While I know it's a bad idea to assume that other people like what I like, or that what my circle of friends tell me is broadly indicative of the larger market, I just believe that the time *has* come when there are enough different kinds of Mormons to support a growing variety of niche publishers. I've talked to quite a few people who have said that they'd like to read more Mormon fiction, but that they're just not interested in the titles they're seeing. I think that number is larger than we might imagine (and no, I have no statistics or backup for that opinion; it's just a personal opinion). This is not to say that the current, vocal readership of the existing publishers will embrace other kinds of stories right out of the box. Scott Bronson's seven-year odyssey with his novel _The Whipping Boy_ is evidence that the mainstream isn't willing to pull the trigger on radically new kinds of fiction. But I think more and more readers are willing to try something outside the ordinary. Enough to support a low-distribution niche market that can slowly broaden the range of stories that are available in the Mormon market and can slowly legitimize a wider variety of Mormon experiences. The criticism Richard Dutcher has received shows that there is a vocal, intolerant segment to our culture. The fact that many Mormons have gone to see his films and anxiously await the next one is evidence that our culture may be broader and more accepting than we've given it credit for. The audiences are out there. We need to help build them by publishing a broader range of titles and types, and by providing opportunities for them to state their acceptance of those newer stories. If this sounds like a combination of wishful thinking and pseudo-manifesto building, I suppose it is. Someone has to state the challenge and/or raise the possibility to the front of our minds if it's to be realized. I just believe Mormon culture is broader and more adaptable and accepting than we've given it credit for. We shall see... Scott Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "LauraMaery (Gold) Post" Subject: [AML] re: Artists vs. Illustrators Date: 01 Aug 2001 00:20:59 -0700 Thom writes >To me, Greg Olsen is an illustrator, not an artist. Pardon my late response...I'd hoped someone else would respond to this comment and save me the argument , but since y'all failed me... Illustration is an art form. It involves illustrating...something. A book, for example. Or a magazine article. Greg Olsen paints, and to my knowledge, he paints without reference to book, articles, or any other written work; if I'm correct, he is not, therefore, an illustrator. But if, perchance, I'm wrong, and he does, in fact, actually illustrate, I still don't see how engaging in the art of illustration makes one something less than an artist...any more than engaging in the production of s.f.-- or tech writing, or poetry, or romance, or any other identifiable genre of writing -- makes one less than a writer. If s.f. is writing, illustration is art. FWIW, I'm looking right now at Greg Olsen's Web site , and what I see there is pretty definitively ART. One may fairly argue about the quality of his art (I happen to like it, but I'll grant you the option of disliking it), but art it is, nonetheless. --lmg --------- WHAT DO WE DO? We homeschool! Here's how: "Homeschool Your Child for Free." Order your copy today, from Amazon.com. --------- . - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rex Goode" Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 01 Aug 2001 05:21:07 -0700 First, regarding the "???n ??e" that appears to be my name in my email address, it's a problem with my ISP that they claim will be fixed soon. Sorry for the confusion. "???n ??e " means Rex Goode. Thanks for the great response to my questions about film versions and _The Name of the Rose_ by Umberto Eco. Rather than answer them all individually, I'll make respond to them in one message. Thom's mention of _Jaws_ was well-timed. He made a point I was going to make. When I've told people that I've seen the movie with that Hooper and Mrs. Brody had a very sleazy affair, they've asked, "Why?!" Of course, neither character in the movie seems the least inclined to such an activity. The entire affair is irrelevant to the story anyway, at least from my memory. I don't even remember the point of it. I saw the movie at least ten times before I read the book, so maybe I was just primed to not care about anything extraneous to the movie's plot. I read _Jaws 2_ before seeing the movie. _Jaws 2_ was not written by Peter Benchley. I don't recall any sex in it at all, and for me, it was a much better book. It had fascinating information about great white sharks in it as it told the story. About four years ago, I read Peter Benchley's _White Shark_ about a human mutated into a shark-like creature. It had the same kind of multiple points of view that I like in horror/suspense stories, converging plotlines, etc., but I can't recall any sex in it. I really didn't think much of the book. I enjoy anything scary like that, but it wasn't as compelling as _Jaws_. Melissa's and Scott's telling about the sex scene in _The Name of the Rose_ was interesting and really made a great point, part of what I was trying to say. I have an acquaintance who writes erotica for Playboy and such magazines. She knows my point of view about such things. Other than pornographic writing, literature and film necessarily handle sex scenes differently. What a novel would tend to say about a sex scene may not be graphic at all, but a film may have to be graphic or delete it altogether. In the novel I am writing, there will be several sex incidents in the plot, but I'm being very careful to not write them as my friend would. They are essential to the story, but it's not essential for the reader to experience the scenes personally. When I was a teenager, I read a novel called, _The Viking_. I can't remember the author. (Is there a place on the net where you can look up information on old out-of-print novels?) It was about Leif Erikson finding the new world. There were several tawdry sex scenes in it and I was looking for a cigarette after each one (even though I didn't smoke). Comments from Thom, Craig, John, and Scott were also interesting regarding what control an author might have over film decisions. I would be in such shock over even having my novel published that I probably would be bold enough to not sell the film rights. At this point, as the novel is shaping up, I'm sure I wouldn't like it as a movie, not because of sexual topics, but because I'm pridefully certain that every element of the plot is necessary and a film would have to drastically reduce it to something that doesn't really tell the story I'm trying to tell. Rex Goode - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: OmahaMom@aol.com Subject: [AML] re: Editing Literature (was: Sex in Literature) Date: 01 Aug 2001 08:40:41 EDT When we speak of Hollywood doing rewrites for their movies, it brings to mind one of the early "Planet of the Apes" movies. The movie's premise was that man's civilization had destroyed itself with violence, allowing the apes to take over. The book, however, had the apes take over because mankind no longer was willing to fight for beliefs, having become totally pacifist. Major rewrite, because of what was the politically correct belief in Hollywood at the time. If it can happen to something like Planet, it can happen to something that we write. Karen Tippets - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: [AML] Re: Editing Literature (was: Sex in Literature) Date: 01 Aug 2001 08:57:41 -0700 John Williams wrote: > >It would reveal a bit of conceit to write a novel with a movie sale in mind, > >I suppose, but if novels are the safe place for sex and movies are not, > >wouldn't a Mormon author want to bear in mind that whatever sex he puts into > >a novel may end up graphically portrayed in a film? > > > >This is an important question to me as I write about sexually-charged topics > >in my novel doing my best to avoid vivid portrayals. I can succeed in the > >written word, but if anyone were to make a movie out of it, I'd feel like a > >pornographer. I'm not even counting on being published much less making a > >movie sale, but I have decisions to make. > > Rex, you ask an excellent question, and I'm not sure I know the answer. I > guess I would say, however, that before a book is made into a film, they need > the author's permission, don't they? No. That right is usually bought by the publisher. > And I suppose you could insist that the > sex scenes in your book do not come out too graphic. Few writers can insist on anything. Even name ones. The ending to Stephen King's _Cujo_ was changed (for the better, imo) and he could do nothing about it. Anne Rice had no control at all over Tom Cruise being cast as her hero in the film adaptation of her novel. > But I think we might be > dealing with an entirely different ball game here (and an entirely new > thread). What do you do if the film producer alters your plot? Or leaves out > an important character? Or changes one of the scenes? The only thing an author can do is ask for enough money up front and hope that the rape of his/her novel is somehow mitigated thereby. Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 01 Aug 2001 09:04:16 -0700 Melissa Proffitt wrote: > It misses the > whole point of how the protagonist (whose name I just can't remember right > now) felt about the incident, which is every bit as important as the fact > that it occurred at all. I was annoyed by it. Hands-down the best example of a sex (actually, nudity) scene that shows how the characater is feeling is the scene in _The Graduate_ where Mrs. Robinson tries to seduce the Dustin Hoffman character. Director Nichols cuts back and forth from Mrs. Robinson to Hoffman, and does it so fast that there is no opportunity to dwell on the erotic nature of the scene. Instead we see Hoffman's panic. Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] LDS Publishers vs. National Publishers Date: 01 Aug 2001 09:09:06 -0700 REWIGHT wrote: > > > > It's part of being true to yourself. There are mainstream LDS writers out > > there who don't put any LDS material in their writing. Doesn't that kind > of > > feel like they sold "us" out? > > Honestly, no. I don't think writers "sell out" if they don't put their > religion in their writing. Sometimes being LDS has nothing to do with the > story. For instance if your writing a fantasy that takes place on another > world, you may use LDS elements subliminally put in, but you won't have LDS > characters. And why not? Suppose Thomas Covenant had been a Mormon. He gets transported to a fantasy world. There are all kinds of other ways to transplant LDS characters via fantasy. > If you write a crime drama, you might not have any LDS > reference in it. It's not selling out because most of the world isn't LDS. But what would it hurt to have the murderer, let's say, visit an LDS Bishop, instead of a Catholic Priest, for penitance. > I would consider it a sell out if an LDS person put graphic sex, swearing or > used ideas that were against LDS belief. What if those ideas were used to set up the final repentence of the main character? > That's not to say that you're > Catholic cop can't express his personal beliefs. I'm talking about taking > our religion and making it look like a cult. Which is precisely WHY I think faithful Mormon writers writing for the larger market should almost feel it a mission from God to use Mormon characters wherever they can. Thom Duncan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: [AML] re: Sex in Literature Date: 01 Aug 2001 10:26:49 -0600 Hi Listers, Regarding sex in literature; Barbara Kingsolver has an interesting essay in the new book "Writers on Writing, collected essays from the New York Times," edited by John Darnton. Her essay, "A Forbidden Territory Familiar to All," is 6 pages on the difficulty of writing intimate scenes--a problem she has often solved with "space breaks." Example; one character notices a cellophane crackle in the other's shirt pocket and declares that if he has a condom in there, this is her lucky day. (now the sex scene:) He did. It was. (Space break and then on to next section.) However, when she felt the necessity of writing in more detail (and at more length) about sexual relationships, she discovered that the available words for description have been taken by pornographers, consumerism, and the medical profession. So most descriptions either sound clinical, like they were written by Larry Flynt, or would make 6th grade boys giggle. She has more to say, but I'll quote just one paragraph; "We live in a strange land where marketers can display teenage models in the receptive lordotic posture (look it up) to sell jeans or liquor, but the basics of human procreation can't be discussed in a middle-school science class without sparking parental ire." Steve -- skperry@mac.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: Re: [AML] Editing Literature Date: 01 Aug 2001 12:54:14 -0600 On Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 05:38:28PM -0600, John Williams wrote: > I too am enchanted by what John Updike called "the charming little > clothy box of the thing." But I've grown somewhat weary of hearing > about the "sacredness" of books. I realize that my aversion to writing in books represents an extreme position that I do not necessarily want to enforce upon others. (Just don't dog ear or write in any book you borrow from me. And you sure better not breake the spine on the paperback. . . .) > Do you get the same bad taste in your mouth when you apply this > logic to, say, the culinary arts? Ex: the Chef wrote this recipe > with green pepper in it. You don't like green peppers, or you're > allergic to them? Well, then, you shouldn't be allowed to have the > soup at all. Either you get it EXACTLY as the menu describes it or > else you don't get it at all (this is starting to sound like the > Soup Nazi on Seinfield). I don't think your analogy fits quite right. When you follow a recipe, you end up with some kind of culinary creation. When you read a book, you end up with some kind of mental image. If you make choices to remove an ingredient from a receipe, you change the end product, but you do not change the recipe for the next person who reads the book. The next person has the same freedom to omit any of the ingredients. When you read a book, you have the choice to skip any of the content of that book. Although your mind will not have experienced the book's entire contents, the next reader still has the opportunity to experience the book as printed by the publisher. In the 1980s, Better Homes and Gardens released a new edition of their popular cookbook. Because of the sodium scare at that time, the editors decided to remove salt from almost every recipe in the book. If you compare recipes from the new and previous editions, often you would find that only the salt changed -- no other compensation for the change in flavor made by the omission of salt. To me, the editors should have printed a "no salt" icon next to every recipe where the reader could choose to optionally eliminate the salt from the recipe, but instead, the editors decided that everyone would eliminiate salt from their diet. I chafe at any such universal judgement that eliminates my opportunity to choose for myself. I look at the MPAA ratings in the same way, especially PG-13. Could they have picked an age where development varies more widely. I know thirteen year olds that stil hold hand with their mommy and others that could move out and successfully live on their own. I much prefer being told something substantive about the content of the movie: adult-subjects, nudity, violence, excessive profanity. With this information, I can make a better decision about what I choose to experience. Perahps I know that nudity puts me in an incorrect frame of mind but that violence does not. It still comes down to a personal choice I make for myself, and not a choice that I allow a community to make for me. > Here I think we agree. If my mom decides to edit her DVD movies, > then great. I'm not going to tell her she can't watch the movie at > all because she didn't like that one part. And, likewise, I > won=92t insist that she order her artichoke saute with parsley in > it, even if she misses out on the WHOLE saute. I think we mostly agree. I don't care if people skip parts of a movie that they don't like. In fact, I believe that what people do with a book or movie for personal use should not have any limitations under the law. But if you have purchased a movie that contains scenes to which you object, then you really shouldn't complain when the producer makes the next movie with two "objectionable" scenes. In most cases, movies and books exist as an opportunity for the publishers/producers to make a return on their investment. Sure you can write letters asking for "cleaner" products, but in the end, the producer will listen to his accountant and not the public at large. We also have to consider that the Mormon culture must accept an apoclyptic frame of reference. We believe that the world at large and even a good portion of the saints will devolve into a culture more corrupt and vile than Sodom and Gomorrah. So we have to consider how much a Mormon literature really should stand on its own versus drawing from contemporary literature. --=20 Terry L Jeffress | Why do people always expect authors to | answer questions? I am an author | because I want to ask questions. If I | had answers I'd be a politician. | -- Eugene Ionesco - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cathy Wilson" Subject: [AML] Brigham Young (was: Sex in Literature) Date: 01 Aug 2001 13:24:56 -0600 Alan writes about enjoying reading Brigham Young. I also love to read him--for his fascinating and specific pragmatism. Alan says: "Also, I like him because Brigham was a man who was not dominated by his sexual desires." Hmmm. . . I think that is impossible for moderns with only one wife to know anything about. Cathy (Gileadi) Wilson Editing Etc. 1400 West 2060 North Helper UT 84526 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Valerie Holladay Subject: Re: [AML] Jennie HANSEN, _The River Path_ (Review) Date: 01 Aug 2001 12:55:48 -0700 (PDT) Jeff Needle wrote: > > >There are some points of discontinuity that are > puzzling. One > > >that comes to mind involves Matt's decision to > purchase cell > > >phones for himself and for Dana. Having > delivered the phone to > > >her, she soon finds herself needing to make a > call. She runs to > > >a phone booth, finds it busy, and goes looking > for another one. > > >No explanation is given as to why she couldn't > just use her cell > > >phone. Matt and Dana are having communication problems and he buys the cell phones since she is staying at the hospital to be near their son and he can't be with her because he's needed at work. When he comes to the hospital with the new phones, he finds her asleep and rather than wake her, he leaves a phone with her and a note that tells her not to use it in the hospital since it can affect the hospital's electronic equipment. Most hospitals have signs asking that visitors turn off their cell phones when they enter the hospital. Valerie Holladay __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "ROY SCHMIDT" Subject: [AML] Gary ROE, _Mormons against the MOB?_ (Review) Date: 01 Aug 2001 14:00:53 -0600 Gary G. Roe: _Mormons against the MOB?_, a novel, Agreka Books, Sandy, Utah, 1998, 200pp, softbound This is a first novel by Mr. Roe, and it shows. The premise is two photo-journalists, Mike and Maggie McQuaid, befriend Millie Pestwick, the curator of the Mormon Station Museum in Genoa. It turns out that Millie's great-grandfather had been a large landowner in the area, who was accused of murder, hanged, and his property taken over by an ancestor of Teri Jackson, a friend of the McQuaid's in Sun Valley. Teri had taken the missionary discussions, had committed to baptism, but then quit her job without notice and went back to South Lake Tahoe to help with her family's business, running a casino. Millie believes her great-grandad was innocent, and the McQuaid's take up the challenge of proving him so. In the process, they make friends with Jim Benson who is with the local newspaper. It appears the murder charge was trumped up, and was, in fact, a front for a land grab. The Jackson in Teri Jackson is her mother's maiden name, her dad's is Mosconi. The Irish Mafia are attempting to break into the Nevada gambling scene, and feel the Jackson/Mosconi holdings will allow them to just that. They have an attorney contact Millie, and persuade her to allow him to represent Millie in clearing her family name, and recovering the property, after which the Irish gang will bamboozle her out of it. Of course, it all works out in the end, and, if the book was a Hopalong Cassidy movie, everyone would have a big horse laugh, and ride off into the sunset. There are a number of problems with the book. Perhaps the most irritating to me being Mr. Roe's obsession with names beginning with "M." After a while it goes from being clever to cute to confusing, to boring. Also, the style leaves much to be desired. For instance: "MAGGIE! MAGGIE?" Muttering to himself, Mike was searching vainly for the keys to the Bronco. "Maggie? Do you know where the keys to the Bronco are? I can't find them anywhere?" Also, on page 36 we are told that "He glanced at Jim's thinning brown hair . . . ," which is fine, except that we are not introduced to Jim until the next page. In fairness to Mr. Roe, he states on the back cover that he wrote this book after having a massive cerebral hemorrhage, and a near-death experience. He went from typing 90 wpm, to 90 words per day. His background is in newspaper work. It would appear that this book was written, at least in part as therapy. There are more, he says, on the way. I wish him well. I bought the book at Borders for a buck. Roy Schmidt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jerry Tyner Subject: [AML] _Testaments of One Fold and One Shepherd_ Date: 01 Aug 2001 16:37:21 -0700 I haven't seen this string in a while but I wanted to comment on my and my family's experience when we went to see Testaments last week. Granted it was the day before my son went into the MTC making us a little more sensitive but even with that based on the strings here I had a unique experience. I'm going to give away a little of the plot so stand warned. We went into the theater as a family with my aunt and her family. My wife and I had discussed and read the strings here and wondered what was the problem. We had not discussed this with my children or other family members. my prayer as the film started and during the film was that I would understand the message and decide for myself if it was a good film and that the Spirit would touch all of us. Making a film like this is unique in that you want to touch those who are sensitive. Anything can be picked apart if you go with that intent. I am not a film or book critic. Many of you may criticize me for that since I am uneducated in that field. I know what I like and that is all. I liked this film and felt it was worthy of replacing Legacy. Every time I asked in my heart during the film why would someone find fault in a certain part an overwhelming feeling of peace came over me to the point of tears. I felt consistently touched by the Spirit. I also noticed when it was over that all of my family and my aunt's family had tears in their eyes. Here was what I saw. The film centered on the people in the Americas and the individual testimonies of some of the members and the teachers or what could have been construed as one of the prophets at that time. He was fictional as were all of the characters except Jesus. It began with a young boy seeing the new star presumably on the night after the day and night and day which was as one day. The sign had been given of the birth of the Savior. It then jumped to that young man as a father bearing his testimony that he knew the Savior had been born because he had seen the sign of His birth and would manifest himself to them one day. He had to deal with a son who had not gained a testimony as well as those who were not believers. The timeline wasn't perfect especially when it came to the murder of the Governor but that was okay. One of the scenes that really touched me was when the young woman who the son was in love with gained her testimony of the living Savior while she was reading the sacred records. The only way to describe that scene was she had a vision of the Savior teaching in the Old World and thus gained a powerful testimony. One of the others (of many) was when the son gained his testimony as he was a captive to what could be construed to be the Gadianton band and the rescue by the father who lost his sight in an accident while rescuing his son during the great earthquake and storm at the time of the Savior's crucifixion. The bottom line to myself and my family was by going with the correct Spirit and with a prayer in our hearts we saw this totally different than had been expected. The feelings in my heart were real and powerful. But I went wanting to see a message and could not comment on the art because the message was so strong and clear. I'm not saying that what was said here was wrong but my experience was definitely much different. All my wife told me was: "I don't agree with what they said about this movie." I have to agree with her. Jerry Tyner - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Morris Subject: [AML] Re: Editing Literature (was: Sex in Literature) Date: 01 Aug 2001 16:58:30 -0700 (PDT) --- Craig Huls wrote: > Thom Duncan wrote: > > > > > > > Serious considerations. Suppose you do get the > book published, and it makes a > > move sale. You, as a new writer, would have NO > rights over the final film > > version. > > > > Thom > > > > Thom.... > Maybe I am really naive. I certainly have no > experience to speak to, but is there > any reason the writer can't have an attorney when > negotiating the contract with > specific clauses indicating damages if the movie > takes a twist outside the > contract? It would seem in this litigious society > we live in today the writer ought > to have something to say about it. > > Craig Huls > Uh. Anybody know why the _Ender's Game_ movie hasn't been made yet? ;) Thom will probably have more trenchant and relevant examples, but let's use the recent suit by freelance writers against newspapers that package and sell their content in online archives and/or cd databases. The newspapers lost the case, meaning the court decided that they should pay freelancers for the re-use of the content. The New York Times responded by removing all the articles from their databases and then tried to convince the freelancers to 'donate' the articles back to the NY Times so that they would be available to our posterity. By the way, the court decision is not relevant for freelance content accepted over the past 5 or 6 years because now newspapers require freelancers to sign over all digital rights before they will publish your piece. In the Mormon publishing world it's even worse (or at least that's what I've heard). The major publishers won't even deal with literary agents, let alone lawyers. ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Craig Huls Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 01 Aug 2001 19:13:56 -0500 REWIGHT wrote: > > > > Since we've beaten up on poor Jack Weyland recently, I might as well > > beat a little more on him, and not bloody another author. (Remember, I'm > > talking about a Jack from twenty years ago. I haven't read much of him > > recently. Maybe he's better now.) In the world of Jack Weyland, the > > Mormon boy meets a non-Mormon girl, and literally days later, she's > > taking the discussions from the missionaries. Of course she ends up > > baptized. This just doesn't happen in real life. > > It happens all the time. > > I was baptised three weeks after my first initial contact with the > missionaries. I never drank, smoked, and at the time, I was a 17 year old > virgin. > > Does that make me unbelievable? > > Anna Only if you lived in my home town! :-) actually Anna, I am on your side on that one. I named off 5 young ladies I know of who had similar whirlwind conversions and several young men, including my current Bishop who was not LDS. He was raised in Idaho, met his wife in California, she said we can't get married till you get baptised, so he was baptised Saturday, they got married the next week and have four kids, 3 married in the temple, boy served a mission, and the fourth daughter who is still single, was instrumental in the conversion of another lad whom she later dumped. But when it came time for his baptism all her family and most of our ward were there. She talked to him long and hard before that she did not want him leaving the Catholic Church to be baptized if it was for her. He assured her she may have introduced him to the Church, but he was joining for his own reasons. They had had an amicable parting, courtship wise, prior to his baptism. He is going to make a great missionary. Maybe when he gets back she will renew the acquaintance. It mattereth not of course. "Real Life is Stranger than Fiction." I don't know who said it, but I believe it! Craig H. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "REWIGHT" Subject: Re: [AML] Morality and Art Date: 01 Aug 2001 13:47:59 -0500 Does that include pornography? Certainly it does. I don't know much about child pornography, but I know that it can lead to the most horrendous crimes against children, and I know that there are people who become experts in it in order to catch those criminals Except in the case of child pornography, horrendous acts have already been commited to create it. It doesn't just possible lead someone to do something. It's already been done. Anna - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: [AML] Re: Editing Literature (was: Sex in Literature) Date: 01 Aug 2001 20:09:30 -0500 At 09:45 PM 7/31/01, you wrote: >Thom Duncan wrote: > > > > > > > Serious considerations. Suppose you do get the book published, and it > makes a > > move sale. You, as a new writer, would have NO rights over the final film > > version. > > > > Thom > > > >Thom.... >Maybe I am really naive. I certainly have no experience to speak to, but >is there >any reason the writer can't have an attorney when negotiating the contract >with >specific clauses indicating damages if the movie takes a twist outside the >contract? It would seem in this litigious society we live in today the >writer ought >to have something to say about it. > >Craig Huls The question is whether anyone would want to buy the movie rights to your novel enough to sign a contract with a provision like that in it. Particularly if this is your first novel and no one has ever heard of you. Perhaps if your first novel $-$-$old a million copies the first week in print . . . ;-) --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "REWIGHT" Subject: Re: [AML] Artists vs. Illustrators Date: 01 Aug 2001 14:36:27 -0500 > But, to me, it's static. It's not just a snapshot of something > happening in time. It has no past or future. Is Christ sitting because > he's tired? Can't tell. He's too clean to have been walking the > streets of Jerusalem all day. What does his expression tell us about > what he thinks about Jerusalem? To me, it tells me nothing. Christ's > face is expressionless. He could just as easily be looking at a tree, > or a rock. Christ isn't sitting as real people sit, he's posing. But that's just your interpretation and what you see (or don't see). What is Christ thinking of? Is it up to the artist to tell us, or is it up to the us to decide for ourselves? Do we really want artists to spell out everything for us? I like art that suggests a story, and for me, Olsen's art does. (by the way there is symbolism in Olsen's work that you may have missed). By your description you would claim that the Mona Lisa isn't art either. It's just a picture of a woman with a smile. What is she thinking? No one knows. So try telling the rest of the art world that the Mona Lisa isn't a work of art. There's a lot of stuff out there labeled art that looks like something my two year old could do. Anna > > None of this means, however, that a person who expects less out of our > community's artists can't be moved by such paintings. But then we're > talking about matters of taste, and not the nature of art. > > -- > Thom Duncan > Playwrights Circle > an organization of professionals > > > > > - > AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature > http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 01 Aug 2001 23:46:30 -0500 At 03:25 PM 7/31/01, Anna Wight wrote: > > > > Since we've beaten up on poor Jack Weyland recently, I might as well > > beat a little more on him, and not bloody another author. (Remember, I'm > > talking about a Jack from twenty years ago. I haven't read much of him > > recently. Maybe he's better now.) In the world of Jack Weyland, the > > Mormon boy meets a non-Mormon girl, and literally days later, she's > > taking the discussions from the missionaries. Of course she ends up > > baptized. This just doesn't happen in real life. > > >It happens all the time. > >I was baptised three weeks after my first initial contact with the >missionaries. I never drank, smoked, and at the time, I was a 17 year old >virgin. > >Does that make me unbelievable? > >Anna I dunno. How about this: 8 June 1977: After reading the Bible as I'd done every night for a number (8 +/- ?) of years at that time, I knelt beside my bed to pray as usual. While I was doing so, I suddenly had a certain knowledge that the LDS Church was true. I was not praying about the truth of the LDS Church then or before, had not been "investigating" the LDS Church, had never read any of the Book of Mormon (If anyone had asked at the time, I'd have guessed that it was some kind of Church manual listing the basic beliefs, etc.) or any other LDS Church publications, had no particular reason up until then to think the LDS Church was anything but another denomination, and was not particularly interested in leaving the United Methodist church, which was the one my parents and I belonged to. Later that week: Neighbors invited me to attend the local ward with them. They had asked only once before, several months earlier, when I had moved into the house I was living in then and met them, and I'd told them simply, "No, thanks." This time, of course, I accepted. 12 June 1977: I attended the local ward with my neighbors. When the sacrament was passed, I let it pass by, until the stopped the person passing it and signaled for me to take it, which I did. That evening, I attended a fireside for young adults at the local stake center, where one of the people I met turned out to be a missionary who had just returned from Germany the day before, and he and I became friends. 14 June 1977: My 23rd birthday. 15 June 1977: The young adults of the stake regularly had activities on Wednesday night, and I started attending. I continued attending Church services on Sunday and the activities on Wednesday until 13 July 1977: After that Wednesday night's activity, I was riding back to town with the aforementioned recently returned missionary, and he was telling me some things about the LDS Church and culture and answering the questions I asked in response to his explanations. Eventually, there was a pause in the conversation, and he asked if I had any more questions. "Just one," I replied. "How does one join?" He did recover in time to avoid running off the road and drowning us in the reservoir located there. 17 July 1977: In the afternoon after Church, the missionaries show up at my door. We go through all the lessons during the following week, after which I finally get around to reading the entire Book of Mormon. 30 July 1977: I was baptized. 31 July 1977: Confirmed and ordained a priest. 9 Oct 1977: Ordained an elder. 13 Aug 1978: Ordained a seventy. 15 Aug 1978: Got my endowments. --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: [AML] Movie Rights (was: Sex in Literature) Date: 01 Aug 2001 23:00:57 -0600 Craig Huls wrote: > Thom Duncan wrote: > > > > > > > Serious considerations. Suppose you do get the book published, and it makes a > > move sale. You, as a new writer, would have NO rights over the final film > > version. > > > > Thom > > > > Thom.... > Maybe I am really naive. I certainly have no experience to speak to, but is there > any reason the writer can't have an attorney when negotiating the contract with > specific clauses indicating damages if the movie takes a twist outside the > contract? It would seem in this litigious society we live in today the writer ought > to have something to say about it. If you brought in an attorney (as opposed to an agent), I'm almost certain the publishing company would back out of the deal. If Orson Scott Card has to produce Ender's Game himself just so he can make sure they don't cast Ender as a teenager and throw in a sex scene or two, then there's NO WAY you or I, or an unknown writer would get that much clout. When a movie production company buys the movie rights, they buy ALL the rights. They can turn your suspense story into a musical and cast Bette Midler as a teenage boy and there is nothing in this world you can do about it. Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] Artists vs. Illustrators Date: 01 Aug 2001 23:54:43 -0500 At 02:36 PM 8/1/01, Anna Wight wrote: >There's a lot of stuff out there labeled art that looks like something my >two year old could do. There's stuff out there labeled art that looks like what I'd get if I dipped my two cats in contrasting colors of paint, put them on a blank canvas, and got them to fight with each other. Hey, do you think anyone would buy . . . --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Craig Huls Subject: [AML] Re: Movie Rights (was: Editing Literature) Date: 02 Aug 2001 00:14:28 -0500 William Morris wrote: > In the Mormon publishing world it's even worse (or at > least that's what I've heard). The major publishers > won't even deal with literary agents, let alone > lawyers. > > ~~William Morris > WOW. No wonder I'm going to have to live to be 100 to get all this done. Not only do I have to write and publish it. Now you're telling me if I don't want some director to missinterpret it I have to film it too! ;-) Oh well it will keep me young! Richard Dutcher? If you are listening in, start a film school for old guys with a dream! I don't think my VHS recorder is up to the task! Not too soon though I have too much on my plate as it is! Now there's another thread folks. Lets start the "AML Film Production Company!" Thom, if you promise to read my mind you can be the director! Rex and I will write about sex that we won't film and well ..... this could get to be fun... (tic) We could write about a celibate Brigham Young and ooops....now I am getting carried away....[g] It is late and I must hit my chair I have a full day tomorrow. I love you folks! Goodnight from HOT TEXAS! Blame this outburst on the heat! Craig - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Williams Subject: RE: [AML] Editing Literature Date: 01 Aug 2001 23:18:15 -0600 >> Do you get the same bad taste in your mouth when you apply this >> logic to, say, the culinary arts? Ex: the Chef wrote this recipe >> with green pepper in it. You don't like green peppers, or you're >> allergic to them? Well, then, you shouldn't be allowed to have the >> soup at all. Either you get it EXACTLY as the menu describes it or >> else you don't get it at all (this is starting to sound like the >> Soup Nazi on Seinfield). > >I don't think your analogy fits quite right. When you follow a >recipe, you end up with some kind of culinary creation. When you read >a book, you end up with some kind of mental image. I think you're comparing making food and reading a book, but I'm comparing EATING the food and reading the book (writer = chef; reader = eater). Is there really that big of a difference between a work of art that you _see_ and a work of art that you _taste_? (Perhaps there are some more bellicose chefs on the list here willing to defend their casserole as a work of art? Stand forth and protect the artistic integrity of your muffins! ...I'm afraid that my cooking more closely resembles the work of Jackson Pollock, and probably won't serve as a very good example of "food as art.") >In the 1980s, Better Homes and Gardens released a new edition of their >popular cookbook. Because of the sodium scare at that time, the >editors decided to remove salt from almost every recipe in the book. >If you compare recipes from the new and previous editions, often you >would find that only the salt changed -- no other compensation for the >change in flavor made by the omission of salt. To me, the editors >should have printed a "no salt" icon next to every recipe where the >reader could choose to optionally eliminate the salt from the recipe, >but instead, the editors decided that everyone would eliminiate salt >from their diet. This is fascinating. Where did you read about this? --John. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Williams Subject: RE: [AML] Editing Literature Date: 01 Aug 2001 23:21:46 -0600 Eric Snider wrote: >An author might write a book and insist it never be made into a film, >never be abridged, never be put into paperback, never be translated >into another language -- in other words, insist it remain exactly as >he wrote it. And people can still buy it, read it, misinterpret it, >misunderstand it, retell it poorly to their friends, get offended by >things the author did not mean to be offensive, and place the wrong >emphasis on a supporting character when the author intended for the >main character to be the important one. The reader may treat the book >itself like a sacred object, and revere the author -- but he has >still "edited" the book, with the red pen of prejudice in the margins >of his mind. (Thank you. Thank you very much.) You wouldn't expect a humor columnist/movie reviewer to elucidate the major tenets of post-structuralist criticism, but Eric, smarty pants, surely has (and with alliteration, too!). >I used to be the same way with records. There was just something cool >about watching them spin around on the turntable, seeing the slight >wobbliness of the needle, etc., etc. I've always hated cassettes. >They're so boring. Yes, but cassettes had the advantage of forcing you to listen to the entire album, getting to know (and eventually appreciate) songs you would have otherwise skipped in a fit of impatience. Trust me, I've known Eric D. Snider since we were freshmen together at BYU, and he has fits all the time :) >Apples and oranges, my good friend John Williams. We're talking about >boycotting ONE particular film because it has content we object to. >The parallel to your example would be boycotting an entire video >store because it carries one movie we don't like, and I don't think >anyone's suggesting that. But someone not buying ONE particular film hardly feels like a boycott. Maybe it would be more useful to refer to it as a "personal decision to abstain." Boycotts, generally speaking, seem more economically coercive--grander--at least in the way we usually use the word. Just a minute, I'll look it up . . . . Okay, we're all wrong. If you are acting alone, it doesn't even fit the definition of "boycott": "To _act together_ in abstaining . . ." (emphasis obviously mine). YOU can boycott neither "Titanic" nor the video store. For it to really be a "boycott," you have to participate in a communal expression of protest or disfavor. Geez, now I've switched roles. Two paragraphs ago I was descriptive linguist, and now I'm prescriptive despot. I'll just give up now . . . use the word however you want. >(You really should get a DVD player.) We graduate students don't have the big salaries of you Newspaper folk, so I'll have to take your word for it. Nice to hear from you Eric. John. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Artists vs. Illustrators Date: 01 Aug 2001 23:09:57 -0600 [MOD: Compilation of two Thom Duncan posts.] "LauraMaery (Gold) Post" wrote: > But if, perchance, I'm wrong, and he does, in fact, actually illustrate, I > still don't see how engaging in the art of illustration makes one something > less than an artist...any more than engaging in the production of s.f.-- or > tech writing, As a writer of both, I can tell you there is a great difference between writing SF and writing technical manuals. The former CAN be a work of art, the latter must never be. In the latter, form follows function. I can't write an SF story without some kind of mental or spiritual preparation. Writing tech manuals is about as automatic as eating. > FWIW, I'm looking right now at Greg Olsen's Web site > , and what I see there is pretty > definitively ART. One may fairly argue about the quality of his art (I > happen to like it, but I'll grant you the option of disliking it), but art > it is, nonetheless. Pretty pictures, but not ART. Thom Duncan REWIGHT wrote: > > But, to me, it's static. It's not just a snapshot of something > > happening in time. It has no past or future. Is Christ sitting because > > he's tired? Can't tell. He's too clean to have been walking the > > streets of Jerusalem all day. What does his expression tell us about > > what he thinks about Jerusalem? To me, it tells me nothing. Christ's > > face is expressionless. He could just as easily be looking at a tree, > > or a rock. Christ isn't sitting as real people sit, he's posing. > > But that's just your interpretation and what you see (or don't see). What > is Christ thinking of? Is it up to the artist to tell us, or is it up to > the us to decide for ourselves? Do we really want artists to spell out > everything for us? I like art that suggests a story, and for me, Olsen's > art does. (by the way there is symbolism in Olsen's work that you may have > missed). > > By your description you would claim that the Mona Lisa isn't art either. > It's just a picture of a woman with a smile. What is she thinking? No one > knows. So try telling the rest of the art world that the Mona Lisa isn't a > work of art. If people are still wondering what Christ is thinking in "O. Jerusalem" three hundred years from now, then it's art. Part of art is work that transcends the ages. A white, Anglo-Saxon Christ with clean fingernails isn't a work of the ages. The enigmatic Moan Lisa most certainly is. Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Needle" Subject: Re: [AML] Gary ROE, _Mormons against the MOB?_ (Review) Date: 01 Aug 2001 22:03:29 -0700 I hope I can find one at Borders for that price. I'd add it to my library, just for the curiosity value. ----- Original Message ----- [snip] > > I bought the book at Borders for a buck. > > Roy Schmidt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Needle" Subject: Re: [AML] Jennie HANSEN, _The River Path_ (Review) Date: 01 Aug 2001 22:04:40 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- > > Jeff Needle wrote: > > > > >There are some points of discontinuity that are > > puzzling. One > > > >that comes to mind involves Matt's decision to > > purchase cell > > > >phones for himself and for Dana. Having > > delivered the phone to > > > >her, she soon finds herself needing to make a > > call. She runs to > > > >a phone booth, finds it busy, and goes looking > > for another one. > > > >No explanation is given as to why she couldn't > > just use her cell > > > >phone. > > Matt and Dana are having communication problems and he > buys the cell phones since she is staying at the > hospital to be near their son and he can't be with her > because he's needed at work. When he comes to the > hospital with the new phones, he finds her asleep and > rather than wake her, he leaves a phone with her and a > note that tells her not to use it in the hospital > since it can affect the hospital's electronic > equipment. Most hospitals have signs asking that > visitors turn off their cell phones when they enter > the hospital. > > Valerie Holladay > Ack! You're absolutely correct. My apologies for the mis-read. Jonathan, shall I revise the review and re-send it? [MOD: Fine with me. Terry, if Jeff does this, can you capture the later version and use it for the book review archive?] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Williams Subject: [AML] Out-of-print Books (was: Sex in Literature) Date: 01 Aug 2001 23:36:42 -0600 >When I was a teenager, I read a novel called, _The Viking_. I can't remember >the author. (Is there a place on the net where you can look up information >on old out-of-print novels?) It was about Leif Erikson finding the new >world. There were several tawdry sex scenes in it and I was looking for a >cigarette after each one (even though I didn't smoke). You can find a lot of out-of-print novels for sale at www.bibliofind.com, where a bunch of used-book stores across the country have put their entire inventories on-line. I use it all the time, and usually find whatever I'm looking for. This may or may not be helpful since they don't provide a synopsis for the books, but it might point you in the right direction. Best of luck with the novel, Rex. John. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: [AML] Fw: MN Maren Ord Tells Edmonton Sun About Career: FYI Edmonton (Edmonton Sun) 29Jul01 A2 Date: 02 Aug 2001 02:22:54 -0400 Maren Ord Tells Edmonton Sun About Career EDMONTON, ALBERTA, CANADA -- With tours shaping up for fall and a series of free concerts at Kinsmen Park during the World Championships in Athletics and playing in Sarah McLachlan's Lilith Fair, Maren Ord has been forced to quit her part-time job at Treasured Memories. What has been been bad for the scrapbook industry has been good for the music business. With the full support of her large, musical Mormon family, Ord, 20, is preparing for her August 6 performance at the Festival of the Worlds. She says she is delighted to be able to make a career out of the dream she's had since she was a child. When asked about her perfect day, Ord replied, "It would be Sunday." "Wake up, go to church, come home spend time with my family," she said. "We try to have family dinners every Sunday. Actually, every Sunday is perfect for me." When asked who she most admires most, Ord said, "My parents. I really look up to them. They're a really good example to me. They've been the most influential in my life." Her most extravagent expense is her art supplies and her greatest weakness is chocolate. Her favorite quote is "Remember who you are and what you stand for." Source: Every Sunday is the perfect Sunday FYI Edmonton (Edmonton Sun) 29Jul01 A2 http://www.fyiedmonton.com/htdocs/arts.shtml by Mike Ross: The Edmonton Sun 20 questions with Maren Ord >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terri Reid Subject: RE: [AML] LDS Publishers vs. National Publishers Date: 02 Aug 2001 07:04:57 -0700 Thom said: "Which is precisely WHY I think faithful Mormon writers writing for the larger market should almost feel it a mission from God to use Mormon characters wherever they can." Once again - Thom has cut to the chase. That's it - no preaching, no taking away from what we write, but rather adding to it by including believable Mormon protagonists and antagonists. HUCK FINN (referring to Paris' note) has a lot of "LDS" elements - and had Mark Twain not been put off by the "beauty" of the LDS women pioneers, perhaps there might have been even more. :) We can write what makes up happy AND include LDS ideas, characters and elements. Terri Reid Executive Producer - Midwest Region PIXELight www.itpnow.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "???n ??e" Subject: Re: [AML] Morality and Art Date: 02 Aug 2001 07:30:12 -0700 >Except in the case of child pornography, horrendous acts have already been >commited to create it. It doesn't just possible lead someone to do >something. It's already been done. > >Anna Anna, I'm not sure what you mean by, "Except in the case of child pornography..." Rex _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tyler Moulton" Subject: Re: [AML] _Testaments of One Fold and One Shepherd_ Date: 02 Aug 2001 08:58:53 -0600 >>> Jerry Tyner said >>> The bottom line to myself and my family was by going with the correct = Spirit and with a prayer in our hearts we saw this totally different than = had been expected. The feelings in my heart were real and powerful. But I = went wanting to see a message and could not comment on the art because the = message was so strong and clear. ------------------------ Just a thought: Is it possible for a film to have obvious imperfections, but draw upon = truths that are so powerfully real to the audience that the effect is = profoundly moving? That was my response to Testaments. I was weeping openly at the end = (something very unusual for me) but not because of the film per se. My = tears were a response to the depiction--however inadequate--of something I = know to be true. My testimony of Christ and the Book of Mormon were the = true antecedents to my feelings--not the film itself. I came away thinking = how surprising--and wonderful--it is that the Spirit can work so powerfully= through such an imperfect medium. And I don't think Keith Merrill (or the brethren) would mind such a = response at all.=20 Tyler - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: [AML] Fw: MN New AP Stylebook Still Recommends "Mormon Church": Kent Larsen 31Jul01 US NY NYC N1 Date: 02 Aug 2001 02:24:37 -0400 New AP Stylebook Still Recommends "Mormon Church" NEW YORK, NEW YORK -- The Associated Press has released the 2001 edition of its stylebook, the guide for word usage followed by a majority of US newspapers, and while the book did make changes in its entry on The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, it still allows using "Mormon Church" in place of the church's official name. The Church made an issue of the use of its name this past February when Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles gave an interview on the subject to the New York Times. The new entry in the AP stylebook indicates that "Mormon church," "LDS church" and "the Latter-day Saints" are all acceptable uses, but indicates that the official name is preferred in the first reference in "a story dealing primarily with church activities." It also says that church members can be referred to as either "Latter-day Saints" or as "Mormons." But the entry differs from the previous edition, which only suggested the term "Mormon church" in addition to the Church's official name. The previous entry also does not suggest a term for church members. For many years the LDS Church has sought for journalists, LDS Church members and the public to refer to the Church by its official name instead of the familiar term "Mormon Church." In February, the New York Times printed an interview with Elder Oaks as the Church stepped-up efforts to get newspapers to change their policies. The Church also asked that the Church not be called the LDS Church, suggesting instead that "Church of Jesus Christ" be used. However, most media disagreed with the Church. A Salt Lake Tribune report two weeks later indicated that the Associated Press had found the Church's arguments unpersuasive. Norm Goldstein, editor of the AP Stylebook then told the Tribune that the Associated Press would stick with "Mormon" because of clarity, "We've looked at it, and then decided that since they are still generally known as Mormons, we would stay with 'Mormon Church' and then use the full name of the church on second reference." Contacted today by Mormon News, Goldstein indicated that his logic has not changed. Other media have also not complied with the Church's wishes, but most Utah media have stopped using the term "Mormon Church." The Salt Lake Tribune decided in March to use the term "LDS Church" on second reference, rather than the more common "Mormon Church" and instead of the Church-suggested term "Church of Jesus Christ." The Church-owned Deseret News's recent articles follow a similar policy. Mormon News follows the same policy, referring to the Church by its official name near the beginning of an article, and using 'LDS Church' in subsequent references. The website and e-mail list's experimentation with using "Church of Jesus Christ" seemed to cause confusion among readers and drew negative reactions from some readers. Source: AP Notice of new stylebook publication See also: Media Find LDS Name Request Unpersuasive http://www.mormonstoday.com/010309/N1ChurchName02.shtml LDS Church Wants to be Called 'Church of Jesus Christ' http://www.mormonstoday.com/010223/N1ChurchName01.shtml >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: [AML] Fw: MN Play About LDS Missionaries in New York Readings: Kent Larsen 30Jul01 A2 Date: 02 Aug 2001 02:29:40 -0400 Play About LDS Missionaries in New York Readings NEW YORK, NEW YORK -- LDS actor and budding playwright Matt Toronto is hosting two readings of his first full-length play, "Mysterious Ways," hoping to attract a producer. According to Toronto, the play explores the relationship between two LDS missionaries and an atheist with whom their lives become intertwined. The missionaries' encounter with the atheist starts when they tract him out and get in a surprising debate with him on the existence of God, sexuality and the necessity of religion. But while they part in disagreement, subsequent chance encounters make clear, at least to the missionaries, divine purposes that they didn't expect. Toronto is a native of Ann Arbor, Michigan who discovered a love of performing as a youth, starting with a role in the choir in a performance of Leonard Bernstein's Mass. That performance led Toronto on to a series of parts in community theater, but unlike other youth actors, his motivation wasn't driven by his parents. Instead, Toronto had decided he liked the stage, and worked to stay there. Before his senior year of high school, Toronto spent two weeks at the renowned Interlochen Center for the Arts, participating in its program for Michigan state students. There, he met recruiters from the University of Michigan, and after graduation, he attended their musical theater program. Toronto interrupted his studies there to serve a two-year LDS mission to Germany, where he wrote a short theatrical presentation on the lives of famous German LDS Church members, from Karl G. Maeser to the saints that helped the Church survive during World War II. After he returned, Toronto married, finished his education, and moved to New York to pursue his acting career. "Mysterious Ways" was written at least in part to further his career, says Toronto. Competition for work in Musical Theater in New York is fierce, and while Toronto has had more success than most, he hasn't yet reached his potential. Toronto hopes that writing his own plays will give him a little more control over his career, giving him more roles. And, he sincerely believes that "Mysterious Ways" will be worth seeing. The readings of the play will be held on August 7th at 135 West 42nd Street at 7pm and on Saturday, August 11th, 2:30pm at the Manhattan Theatre Source, 177 McDougal, between 8th street and Washington Square North in Greenwich Village. Toronto asks that those attending RSVP to him at matttoronto@hotmail.com so he knows how many people are coming. Source: Mormon News interview with Matt Toronto >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jerry Tyner Subject: RE: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 02 Aug 2001 09:19:27 -0700 There is one other movie that is a personal favorite of mine which has Mel Gibson. It was called Forever Young. To my recollection this had no sex in it and was a very touching story. Jerry Tyner - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Grant Subject: Re: [AML] Editing Literature Date: 02 Aug 2001 09:51:54 -0600 John Williams wrote: [...] >>(2) How far does one carry this boycott? You don't like the >>fact that Barnes and Nobles sells books on abortion, so you >>don't ever shop there? Eric D. Snider replied: >Apples and oranges, my good friend John Williams. We're >talking about boycotting ONE particular film because it has >content we object to. Terry Jeffress seemed to be arguing that the corrupt part necessarily ruins the whole and to be applying that principle at the level where the part is a movie scene and the whole is the movie. If that is the only level where the principle works (and not, say, at the level where the part is a book promoting abortion and the whole is the bookstore), why does the principle operate that way? Of DVD players, Eric writes: [...] >I believe on some models you actually can program it to play >the movie in a particular sequence -- play chapters 1-20, >then 22-30, for example, skipping the evil chapter 21 -- but >I wouldn't say this is "easily" done. A Pleasant Grove company called Cine-Bit (which may now be defunct) used to market a software-based DVD player that would run on a computer and allow a user to specify what scenes to skip when a DVD was played. Given the huge installed base of VCRs, it will be quite some time until movies are no longer available on videotape; surely in the meantime some company will implement controls like Cine-Bit's on a user-friendly consumer electronics device. Terry L Jeffress writes: [...] >But if you have purchased a movie that contains scenes to >which you object, then you really shouldn't complain when the >producer makes the next movie with two "objectionable" scenes. >In most cases, movies and books exist as an opportunity for >the publishers/producers to make a return on their investment. Michael Medved has argued that Hollywood does not act as it would if it were really trying to maximize profit. Has his claim been refuted? Furthermore, Hollywood is infamous for engaging in curious accounting practices that strain credulity. How confident can I therefore be that my boycott will, in fact, send a signal and not just get lost in the noise? In any case, there are other factors to weigh when making entertainment choices (e.g., Are there things of value in the edited movie?), and I don't see why a desire to send a message should trump any and all other considerations. Chris Grant grant@math.byu.edu - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 02 Aug 2001 09:28:13 -0600 on 8/1/01 6:13 PM, Craig Huls at dcraigh@onramp.net wrote: > "Real Life is Stranger than Fiction." I don't know who said it, but I believe > it! It's true, but Fiction, unlike Real Life, has to make sense. Steve -- skperry@mac.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BISH8@aol.com Subject: [AML] Introductions: Paul Bishop Date: 02 Aug 2001 11:37:07 EDT I recently join this list at the urging of author BJ Rowley and was please to find another friend, author Lynn Gardner, is also a member. I've had dual careers for the past twenty-five years, both as a detective with the Los Angeles Police Department and as a professional writer. Recently, after fifteen years of investigating sex crimes (the last eight as the supervisor of the West Los Angeles Area Sex Crimes Unit -- yes, the same West Los Angeles Area where all the OJ Simpson hoopla took place), I've now taken over the running of LAPD's West Los Angeles Area Robbery Unit. The change has had its challenges, but I am adapting. In the writing field, my ninth novel Chalk Whispers was published in hardcover by Scribner last year and has recently been published in paperback by Pocket Books. This is the fourth novel in my series featuring Fey Croaker, a hard-bitten, sharp-tongued homicide detective. These are mainstream novels without obvious LDS themes, and do contain (minimal) street language, sexual content, and violence. So much for the disclaimer. I started my writing career in freelance journalism, an area to which I have recently returned with three articles appearing in Writer's Digest magazine this year and two others commissioned for next year. I've also written for episodic television (Diagnosis Murder, Law & Order SVU, etc.) and am currently on the writing staff of two Discovery Channel shows, The New Detectives and Navy SEALs: The Untold Stories. Carrying two full time careers gets tougher the older I get, but retirement from the police department is on the horizon in two to five years (or as soon as my son returns from his mission and finishes his degree at BYU -- where he was a freshman last year). I've been interested in the recent thread on the list relating to selling novels to movies and retaining any kind of control over the finished product. That type of control doesn't exist. If an author is insistent about retaining creative control or tries to have any say over the screenplay, final cut of the movie, etc., the offer from the studio to buy the rights will disappear. I recently sold the rights to one of my early books with the understanding I would write (and be paid for) the first draft of the sceenplay. Once that draft is turned in, however, the studio could very well hire another writer to rewrite my draft or create a second draft from scratch. It is not uncommon for a screenplay to go through ten or more drafts and writers before actually getting made (or not). Writing novels and writing screenplays are very different arts. One of my Writer's Digest articles from earlier this year dealt with the transition from novelist to screenwriter. If anyone is interested, I'd be happy to email you a copy. Paul Bishop http://www.BookRadio.com/Bishop - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Morris Subject: Re: [AML] Mission of Mormon Letters? Date: 02 Aug 2001 09:54:21 -0700 (PDT) Thanks to Terri and Melissa for sharing their decisions in response to my question as to whether anyone has actually backed away from a project because they felt it was leading them in a direction they felt was morally wrong. I haven't faced that decision yet, but I have this idea for a novella, and I'm struggling with the core plot device and wondering if I can actually write the thing in a way that I'll feel morallly pleased with. I think I can but... I also wanted to respond to something Scott wrote: --- Scott and Marny Parkin > > Many authors want to shut that dialog down to a > single direction--the > author may pontificate to the reader and criticize > anything he wants, > but if the reader responds with criticism of their > work or its > apparent messages, then some horrible moral evil has > occurred and the > poor hapless author is being censored. But censoring > the reader's > thoughts is somehow okay. > > I'm not convinced that literature works under such a > model. > > Many of our great books are comments by one author > on things that > another author had to say. In other words, dialog. > Some of those > responses have been vehement, vitriolic > condemnations. Most of our > major literary movements were an attempt by one > group of people to > comment on the failures or excesses of another > group. > With this post Scott has said much of what I was trying to say with much more clarity than I did. I just want to highlight his point above. My understanding of how literature happens is based on the same process that Scott outlines, and thus formed the background for my question of 'should we.' Should we operate under the same assumptions as the dominate schools of writing (which I labeled Literary and Genre)in American publishing and academia? I also ask the question coming from the point of view of a novice scholar of minor literatures [By the way, welcome to the West Coast, John Williams. It's great to see another comparatist join the list. My training in the field is limited (MA program at SFSU) so I hope you can challenge, support and/or extend my assumptions]. I need to think more about how the field of Mormon literature may be similar or different to other minor literatures, but one thing that is interesting to me is that Mormon writers have been quite successful at breaking in to the American publishing world inasmuch as they, naturally, are willing to play by the rules of that world [And thus the genius of the sci-fi authors who could play by the rules, but still explicitly work with Mormon-tinged themes]. I think this parallels the marginal-but-not status that Mormons have in American culture as a whole. This is a steam of Mormon literature that I hope continues, but I recognize that there are limitations to how the Mormon experience can be portrayed if one has to stick to the conventions of the mainstream publishing world, and so I've become interested in the areas where Mormons can establish difference. Which means I agree with Terry Jeffress when he writes in the 'Editing Literature' thread: "We also have to consider that the Mormon culture must accept an apoclyptic frame of reference. We believe that the world at large and even a good portion of the saints will devolve into a culture more corrupt and vile than Sodom and Gomorrah. So we have to consider how much a Mormon literature really should stand on its own versus drawing from contemporary literature." I share the hope that other list members have expressed that there will continue to be Mormon writers who thrive in many areas along the spectrum. My primary interest, however, is to consider the issue that Terry raises. How much should we (and can we) stand on our own? This is a question that has been central to other minor literatures (Romanian and Modern Greek are the ones I'm most familiar with), and while it is one that is never answered completely, the struggle to answer it led to many fruitful literary movements within those minor literatures. We can't divorce ourselves from contemporary literature, or from our own literary history, or even from the western literary tradition. But I'm curious as to where we can differentiate ourselves. That's why I think that the act by a Mormon writer of making a moral judgement regarding a work rather than letting the tyranny of the narrative, of the form, hold sway is an interesting, important act of resistance and not simply self-censorship. That's not to say that self-censorship is always good, or that it is not it's own form of tyranny (especially when that self-censorship takes place because a writer is shrinking before state-sponsored censorship as happened in Romania), but I see it as a valid response. ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: [AML] Finding Book Information (was: Sex in Literature) Date: 02 Aug 2001 09:39:07 -0600 On Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 05:21:07AM -0700, Rex Goode wrote: > When I was a teenager, I read a novel called, _The Viking_. I can't remember > the author. (Is there a place on the net where you can look up information > on old out-of-print novels?) When looking for in-print book information, you should look in Books in Print. More than likely, your local library has a copy and they might even have a subscription to booksinprint.com. (You can get a free trial to booksinprint.com, but a sales person *will* contact you asking you to purchase an annual subscription.) If you cannot look there, then Amazon.com or Barnes and Noble (bn.com) usually have all the books in print in their catalogs. When looking for information about books printed in the United States, you can search the Library of Congress (catalog.loc.gov). This catalog indexes every title registered with the U.S. Copyright office. As part of copyright registration, publishers should send two copies of every title to the Library of Congress, so many books by the smallest publishers or self-publishers never get indexed here. You have to get used to the catalog's somewhat user-unfriendly interface, but you can get a whole lot of information about old and new books. The Library of Congress also limits the number of simultaneous users, so you may have to try several times before you can use the catalog. Also, don't forget to check your local public or university libraries. Most have online catalogs, and your local library can get just about any title through interlibrary loan. You can also try one of the many used book sites like abebooks.com, powells.com, or half.com. These sites often have copies of old titles. In Rex's case, the Library of Congress shows about five titles for "The Viking" and several hundred titles for just "Viking." Of course, it doesn't help that a publisher named Viking puts its name in the title of many of their books: _The Viking Book of Folk Balads_, _The Viking Book of Poetry of the English-Speaking World_, etc. Knowing the approximate year of publication would help. -- Terry L Jeffress | It is a mistake to think that books have | come to stay. The human race did without | them for thousands of years and may | decide to do without them again. | -- E. M. Forster - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: [AML] Audience for Mormon Lit (was: Mission of Mormon Letters?) Date: 02 Aug 2001 11:11:23 -0600 On Tue, Jul 31, 2001 at 10:46:49PM -0600, Scott Parkin wrote: > But the fact that Mormons flock so readily to the morality plays > offered by most of Covenant's authors and a fair number of DB's as > well, suggests that it's not the presence of sin or error on the part > of Mormon characters that's the problem. Mormons seem to accept that > willingly enough as long as the characters recognize sin for what it > is and attempt to resolve those problems. Sales statistics show that for sales of LDS fiction titles, an LDS woman buys the book as a gift an not for personal reading. I content that in most cases, these women buy based on trust. They trust that the LDS publisher will provide content that they can feel comfortable giving without having to take the time to read the book first. Now Gerald Lund and Dean Hughes books have made some dent in this trend, but I really haven't seen much overflow from these series into reading other LDS titles. Most of the people that I have talked to about these books have not expressed any interest in reading a fiction title by other LDS authors. They express anticipation while waiting for the next book in the series, but they don't seem to have any interest in filling the void with other LDS titles. > The criticism Richard Dutcher has received shows that there is a > vocal, intolerant segment to our culture. The fact that many Mormons > have gone to see his films and anxiously await the next one is > evidence that our culture may be broader and more accepting than > we've given it credit for. I don't think that you can safely assume that since people have gone to see an LDS movie that those same people would pick up an LDS book and read. You don't have to invest much in a movie: two hours and almost no mental exercise required. Books require a much more significant time investment, and you cannot share the experience simultaneously with friends or family. Our society has become so accustomed to receiving information from audio/video sources that given the choice between a movie and a book, most people will choose a movie. Although, people did choose to see _God's Army_ and _Brigham City_ instead of the other movies from Hollywood. I think this says a lot for Richard Dutcher's future, but, again, I don't think you can translate Richard's success into success in the book market. (We'll have to wait and see how the _God's Army_ spin-off books fare.) > The audiences are out there. We need to help build them by publishing > a broader range of titles and types, and by providing opportunities > for them to state their acceptance of those newer stories. I agree that with 10 million members (even just 5 million English-speaking member) that we should have an audience large enough to support a broad range of publishing opportunities. If you sold a copy of your title to just 0.125% of the saints, you would sell 12500 copies -- an excellent sales figure in this market. The problem then comes to distribution. How do you get your title to the one person in Monroe, Connecticut, or the few people in Melbourne, Australia, or any other person living in an area with low LDS population density. We have to fight more battles than just making sure that good titles exist. Literature, even in the LDS market, must still compete with movies. Also, LDS literature doesn't stand alone, each title gets categorized into other genres which further limits the number of people willing to buy your title. The romance reader probably won't pick up an LDS science fiction title, even if the titles sit next to each other on the shelf at Deseret Book. Literacy, quality, selection, distribution -- problems that combine to make finding a reader difficult. I know I sound somewhat pessimistic, but I think that even if the Mormon audience has come to a place that makes them more open to new ideas from their literature, we have other problems that will interfere with getting texts into the audience's hands. > We shall see... And so we shall. -- Terry L Jeffress | Why do people always expect authors to | answer questions? I am an author | because I want to ask questions. If I | had answers I'd be a politician. | -- Eugene Ionesco - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: [AML] Cell Phones (was: Something Else) Date: 02 Aug 2001 13:32:41 -0600 At 11:12 PM 7/30/01 -0500, you wrote: >If you were male, you could wear it on your belt. No, like many other women, I walk along minding my own business and then my purse starts to ring. This is just one of the many ludicrous aspects of our culture, which is SO ripe for parody. Barbara R. Hume barbara@techvoice.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Savage" Subject: Re: [AML] Mission of Mormon Letters? Date: 02 Aug 2001 12:41:22 -0700 > Scott Parkin wrote: > I think the issue comes back to what's being published. As you point > out, the only LDS-oriented publishers who are on the average Mormon's > radar screen are Signature, best known for its critical/anti stance > against traditional cultural Mormonism, and a number of small or > niche publishers like Cedar Fort that have a limited acceptance and > impact on the total LDS market. I'm confused by your statement, you say that the only publishers on the average Mormon's radar are the same publishers that have limited acceptance in the LDS market. Do you really believe this? If these are the only publishers on the average Mormon's radar screen. Why aren't they blowing away the big 2.5 in sales? Browse through the average Mormon's bookshelf and I think that most of the LDS titles will be from DB/BC or Covenant. > But to me, the simple existence of a press like Cedar Fort that > publishes a wide variety of explicitly LDS titles that range from > pioneer adventure stories to modern spy thrillers is evidence that > Mormon readers want more than they're getting from the Big 2.5 LDS > publishers. Yes, many of these titles are small-run and a distressing > number of them are author-subsidized, but they sell better than you > might imagine. I agree completely with the your premiss that we need more LDS publishers. It is very distressing to have so few oppurtunities for new LDS authors. But I don't agree with the way you got there. You could just as easily say that the existence of the Arena football league is proof that most sports fans want more than they are getting from the NFL, or in a more inflamitory example, that the existance of the KKK is proof that most Americans want more (or less) than they are getting from our current racial policies. I am not in any way likening any LDS publishers to the KKK, but my point is that there will always be niche publishers. The big publishers cater to the masses and the smaller publishers focus on their niche groups. And every once in a while, hallaluah!, David reaches out and beats Goliath. But you could just as easily say that the fact that these publishers remain small shows something else. Lastly, I want to encourage everyone on this list to keep stretching the limits on the big guys. When I went out to visit with Covevnant a couple of weeks back, I met an author named Jeff Somthing (his last name is not really something, but I can't find their catalogue for the life of me right now,) who has written the first true SF book to be published by Covenant this fall. With my book being their first stab at High-tech (I know more shameless plugs) this is new new genres for them in thre months. Now can we get them to publish a book about a huge, rabid, missionary who goes on a killing spree in a small NE town. Hmmm.... > The audiences are out there. We need to help build them by publishing > a broader range of titles and types, and by providing opportunities > for them to state their acceptance of those newer stories. > > If this sounds like a combination of wishful thinking and > pseudo-manifesto building, I suppose it is. Someone has to state the > challenge and/or raise the possibility to the front of our minds if > it's to be realized. > > I just believe Mormon culture is broader and more adaptable and > accepting than we've given it credit for. > > We shall see... I think that it is happening and will continue to happen. Keep pushing, and buying the types of titles that you want to see. [Jeff Savage] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Grant Subject: Re: [AML] Artists vs. Illustrators Date: 02 Aug 2001 13:46:38 -0600 Thom Duncan writes: [...] >Part of art is work that transcends the ages. A white, Anglo- >Saxon Christ with clean fingernails isn't a work of the ages. You've previously endorsed Dali's Christ (see "http://user.fundy.net/msgr/dali_corpus_hypercubus.htm") and Bloch's Christ (see "http://www.hopegallery.com/cb/index.html") as art. I'm no expert on racial characteristics: What is it about Olsen's Christ that makes him Anglo-Saxon in a way Dali's Christ and Bloch's Christ are not? Chris Grant grant@math.byu.edu - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: Re: [AML] Editing Literature Date: 02 Aug 2001 17:19:01 -0600 On Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 11:18:15PM -0600, John Williams wrote: > I think you're comparing making food and reading a book, but I'm > comparing EATING the food and reading the book (writer = chef; > reader = eater). In this scenario the eater makes a selection from the menu (buys a movie or book from the store) and the waiter delivers the chef's creation. (Just like you usually don't see the writer when you buy a book, you probably won't see the chef when you buy your food.) Then you discover that the Spinach and Goat Cheese Flambe also contains corn, to which you have a violent allergy. You can either return the salad uneaten, or you can choose to pick out the corn and eath the rest of the salad. These options represent the choices we have discussed: not purchasing the work because of its content or intentionally consuming the work while consciously avoiding the parts you don't like. > Is there really that big of a difference between a work of art that > you _see_ and a work of art that you _taste_? Not at all -- if you own an original. Once you purchase a work of art, you have the right to do with it as you please. If you were to somehow purchase the Mona Lisa from the Louve, you could choose to burn it. When you purchase the bacon-wrapped fillet mignon, you get an original creation, and you can choose to put catsup or A-1 sauce on it, despite the looks of disgust you'll get from your fellow patrons, the servers, and possibly the chef. Now books differ in a way because you haven't really purchased the original. Instead, you own a single user license. You can use your copy in any way approved by your license. In this case, the local and federal copyright laws define the license. You can write in, mutilate, or burn your copy of the book, but you cannot choose to make a duplicate copy and sell that copy to someone else. > > [snip the Better Homes Cookbook editors remove salt from recipes] > > This is fascinating. Where did you read about this? I own both editions. My earlier copy came in a three-ring binder and many of the pages have come loose, so I bought a bound replacement copy. In the Editor's Note of the new edition, you can read a short explanation about the removal of salt from the recipes. In spite of owning the newer edition, I regularly cook out of the old edition because the salt makes the dishes taste better. An interesting side note about copyright and recipes. You cannot copyright a list of ingredients, only the written instructions for how to combine those ingredients. You can safely take a list of ingredients word-for-word from a cook book, write a new description for how to combine those ingredients, and publish the new recipe in your own collection. -- Terry L Jeffress | The first thing an unpublished author | should remember is that no one asked him | to write in the first place. With this | firmly in mind, he has no right to | become discouraged just because other | people are being published. | -- John Farrar - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "REWIGHT" Subject: Re: [AML] Utah Mormon Culture Date: 02 Aug 2001 17:39:51 -0500 > > If we can only stop one-upping each other about how much harder our > own lives and problems are. Hi Scott, I agree with you completely on this post. I wasn't trying to say that Utah Mormons have it easy. I was trying to say they have it different. I'm sure the kids there have their trials too. My point being is that it does make a difference whether you have friends that are part of your culture or not. It's harder if everyone around you smokes and drinks, than it is if everyone around you has the same standards and you're going to see them in church. Kids like to part of a group and not everyone has the luxury of having good infulences around them. At one point we lived in a small town (300). The only things that the kids in that town did was drink. My kids didn't participate, and they didn't hang out with anyone. In comparison we live in a bigger town and my kids are socially active. And they still maintain their standards. If they weren't so strong they could have easily joined in with their drinking friends. In the end it's up to the kid. But it is easier if you can hang out with kids who have the same value system. By the way, I love the Mormons in Utah, but I have spoken to some of them, and they really do have no idea that life is different outside of their valley. Unless they've lived somewhere else or served a mission. Anna [Wight] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] Morality and Art Date: 03 Aug 2001 05:02:31 -0500 At 09:30 AM 8/2/01, you wrote: >>Except in the case of child pornography, horrendous acts have already been >>commited to create it. It doesn't just possible lead someone to do >>something. It's already been done. >> >>Anna > >Anna, I'm not sure what you mean by, "Except in the case of child >pornography..." > >Rex I was confused for awhile, too, until I re-read it as: "Except [that] in the case of child pornography, horrendous acts have already been committed . . . " (_I.e._, not "Horrendous acts have already been committed in all cases except in the case of child pornography . . . ", but "In the specific case of child pornography, horrendous acts have already been committed . . . " I trust that is closer to the original intent of Anna's post. If not, I humbly* stand ready to be corrected . . . (*Quit laughing, all of you who know me. I'm at least _trying_ to be humble . . . ) --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Grant Subject: Re: [AML] UDALL, _The Miracle Life of Edgar Mint_ (Review) Date: 03 Aug 2001 07:45:01 -0600 Andrew Hall writes: [...] >Edgar's interest in sex once he becomes 14 or so, while >definately beyound the pale for many Mormon readers, was >consistent with what is going through the minds of your >average Mormon 14 year old (although his actions certainly >are extereme). Thayer's _Summer Fire_ is the only other >Mormon novel I can think of that takes on a teenage boy's >sexual confusion and frustration in a similiarly honest way I agree that there are some similarities between _Edgar Mint_ and _Summer Fire_, but I also see some very big differences. I don't think there is any R-rated language in _Summer Fire_ at all, and I don't think there is any explicit depiction of sexual activity either. (It has been over 15 years since I read it, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.) Sometime in the 1980s, the BYU student ward I was in had Thayer come give a fireside talk on _Summer Fire_. He talked about the connection between his book and Moroni 10:32-33. I doubt that many BYU student wards would feel comfortable having Udall give a fireside talk on _Edgar Mint_. Chris Grant grant@math.byu.edu - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jerry Tyner Subject: RE: [AML] _Testaments of One Fold and One Shepherd_ Date: 03 Aug 2001 08:19:51 -0700 Tyler, I think that is a perfect description. Jerry Tyner -----Original Message----- >>> Jerry Tyner said >>> The bottom line to myself and my family was by going with the correct Spirit and with a prayer in our hearts we saw this totally different than had been expected. The feelings in my heart were real and powerful. But I went wanting to see a message and could not comment on the art because the message was so strong and clear. ------------------------ Just a thought: Is it possible for a film to have obvious imperfections, but draw upon truths that are so powerfully real to the audience that the effect is profoundly moving? That was my response to Testaments. I was weeping openly at the end (something very unusual for me) but not because of the film per se. My tears were a response to the depiction--however inadequate--of something I know to be true. My testimony of Christ and the Book of Mormon were the true antecedents to my feelings--not the film itself. I came away thinking how surprising--and wonderful--it is that the Spirit can work so powerfully through such an imperfect medium. And I don't think Keith Merrill (or the brethren) would mind such a response at all. Tyler - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Needle" Subject: [AML] Jennie HANSEN, _The River Path_ (Review) (Updated) Date: 02 Aug 2001 18:34:38 -0700 (Note -- An error in my previous review made it desirable for me to omit a paragraph. I am re-posting the corrected review for the archives. My apologies.) Review ====== Jennie Hansen, "The River Path" 2000, Covenant Communications Paperback, 240 pages, $13.95 Reviewed by Jeffrey Needle "The River Path" is Hansen's eighth work of fiction for the LDS market. Reading the blurb on the back cover does not do justice to the book's complex and intriguing plot. When Matt Bingham, a cradle Mormon, chose to marry Dana Dalby, a recent convert, neither set of parents could make sense of the situation. When Dana joined the Church, her parents completely disowned her. Matt's parents, solid Latter-day Saints, had wished their son Matt would have married a woman more mature in the faith, better able to raise their children in the Gospel. A strong sense of tension -- Dana's alienation from her parents because of her decision to become a Mormon, Matt's family because of his choice of a wife -- dominates the early part of the book and creates a tension so thick you'd need a knife to cut through it. In the case of Matt's family, he, his brothers and his father work together in a construction business, and the family remains close despite their doubts about Dana. Matt and Dana's son, Joshua, becomes ill will a disease that will require a bone marrow transplant if he is to have any chance of surviving. The best bet would be a close family member, but none of the tests on Matt's family yield a close enough match. It remains for Dana's family to rescue the child from certain death -- the family that disowned their daughter and refuses to talk with her. Matt's mother travels to California to try to convince a family member to be tested, and there sees a work of art produced by Dana reflecting her understanding of Lehi's dream of the Tree of Life. Dana had told the family of her family's total distancing of themselves from her, but no one is prepared for either the depraved condition of her father or the shocking selfishness of her mother. The title, "The River Path," comes from the painting just mentioned. In this painting, Matt's mother sees deeply into the soul of her daughter-in-law, an awakening that will affect not just her view of Dana, but also of herself and her own narrow way of thinking. A secondary plot emerges as the family business is attacked by an unknown assailant, out to bring the business down. There are plenty of suspects; it only lacks plenty of clues. Each of the major characters finds his or her way along "The River Path," coming to terms with their shortcomings, renewing their commitment to family and to the Gospel. This book is very well written. Characterizations are crisp and realistic, from the evil Mr. Dalby to the delightfully daffy Home Teacher who visits Dana as she keeps watch over her son in the hospital. Just when you think you have it all figured out, Hansen throws in a plot twist that sends you back to square one. In the end, the pieces come together in a satisfying way. "The River Path" is a fine example of what Mormon fiction, addressed to a wide audience, can be. It avoids being preachy, but manages to teach solid values. Without being overly-melodramatic, Hansen delivers well-written scenes of intimacy and hungry love. I liked this book very much. I have in my stack her next book, and look forward to diving into it. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Marsha Steed" Subject: [AML] Re: Artists vs. Illustrators Date: 03 Aug 2001 09:15:16 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Well folks, I've missed your opinions, youir squabbles, and your humor bu= t most of all, I've missed the contact and the inspiration. You people do = not know how you changed my life, nor most assuredly what you have said and d= one which has been inspiring, for it is decidedly not the little stories and uplifting quotes, but the human-ess ( if that is a word ) of your thought= s and struggles and the honesty in your meanderings that keeps a lady comin= g back. ( Even when she does not have time for it, but must steal the time = to both read and respond. What was that about borrowing from Peter to pay Paul? ) =0D =0D Anyway. . . that little gushing over with, my reponse was on the thread about Greg Olsen's art, but not only that, but art in general. I have be= en an art docent for over 15 years, and one currator said something profound= I think. She said that if you want to create 'art' you have to do somethin= g no one else has done. See something in a new way, use a new medium, use = an old medium in a new way, create some sort of style that is unique to you.= =20 Even the 'great' Kinkaid is not considered to be 'art' in the museum qual= ity art world. If he will one day. . . that is left to be discovered. VanGo= gh only sold one painting in his lifetime. ( They used to use his works to cover holes in barn doors, some I know would submit that would be a bette= r use for them. :: grin :: ) So, is Olsen's word 'art'? The word itself i= s fairly subjective, just as most art is. If you compare it to the world = of museum's and pieces that endure, I do not know. I happen to like him, bu= t.=20 . I also happen to *not* like over exposure. A little push and pull the= re. Swindle is the same. I loved her stuff when I first saw it, but. . . to= o much of a good thing is simply. . . too much. =0D =0D Anyway, my little two bits, hello to anyone still around who remembers a = shy slightly caustic lady in the West. =0D =0D Marsha Steed=0D aka Chantaclair Rose of http://Chantaclair.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Amelia Parkin Subject: [AML] Creative Use of Language (was: Artists vs. Illustrators) Date: 03 Aug 2001 12:26:49 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) A couple of comments on the list this week have sparked this seemingly unrelated comment. The first was by a person responding to the art vs. illustration thread (sorry I can't remember who it was) who commented that there is art out there that their two-year-old could create. and from John Williams: ...I'm afraid that > my cooking more closely resembles the work of Jackson Pollock, and probably > won't serve as a very good example of "food as art.") > I just couldn't let two comments pass without responding (one could have slid by). Why is it that if something *looks* easy we dismiss it as requiring little effort? as unartistic? I saw the movie _Pollock_ this spring and was absolutely inspired by it. I've loved the art of Pollock for several years so I was probably pre-disposed to like the subject of the movie if not the movie itself. The movie tells of Pollock receiving a commission for a large mural, I think 8 feet by 20 feet, or something along those lines. It then shows him standing in front of his blank canvass, crouching in a corner looking at it from a new angle, the blank canvass with his larger than life shadow looming over it. At the time I was in the middle of writing my Masters thesis and had hit a wall--inability to write. I'm sure many of you know the feeling. This scene captured so perfectly the overwhelming power of blankness--of openness in which we create something new. the blank page, the empty computer screen with its ever-present blinking cursor, a blank canvass--knowing that you have something in your mind and you want to get it onto that blank space, want to express it but not really knowing how. Until epiphany happens and you begin to see connections and new ways of seeing things and it can come out, sometimes slowly and sometimes in a rush. My masters thesis is nothing, as far as being a piece of art, to what Pollock's immense, chaotic, intricate, intensely beautiful paintings are but the scene in the movie clicked with me. I guess I've gone off on a bit of a tangent. The thing I really want to get at is how difficult it is to create something strange and unusual--whether it be in word or in paint or in whatever medium. I think we need to allow new art forms the opportunity to speak to us on their own terms, rather than to project terms onto them--terms by which we demand they speak but by which they do not speak and may never speak. This is even more difficult when it comes to literary arts. We have higher demands of literature when it comes to making sense. We expect words and sentences to function in a certain way--to convey meaning. And when they do not, it is even more of an affront than when a painting is not only unrealistic but also completely non-representational. Of course, this is a bit of a two-edged sword. Language is like that. Because we all use it and because it is a common tool, we expect that we can understand it. But when someone creates something that doesn't use language according to its own rules--radically does not--we tend to recognize how difficult that is (I'm thinking of Joyce's _Finnigan's Wake_) and acclaim it as genius. Plastic arts on the other hand--and I mean painting in particular although the same is partially true of sculpture, performance art, etc.--is a language, a tool we don't all understand. And so when the result of using that tool looks nonsensical and easy we dismiss it as something anyone, even a two-year-old could create. Knowing language as intimately as we do both enables us and makes us critical when someone seems to use it poorly and reveals our own inabilities and leaves us reverential when we realize we can't use it anywhere near as well as a literary artist. sorry. i write in tangents. amelia parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Introductions: Paul Bishop Date: 03 Aug 2001 11:56:11 -0600 At 11:37 AM 8/2/01 -0400, you wrote: >Writing novels and writing screenplays are very different arts. One of my >Writer's Digest articles from earlier this year dealt with the transition >from novelist to screenwriter. If anyone is interested, I'd be happy to >email you a copy. I may soon be involved in just such a project, Paul, so I'd be happy to receive a copy. Your credentials are most impressive--welcome to the list, and try not to blow us all away! barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: Re: [AML] Editing Literature Date: 03 Aug 2001 12:19:26 -0600 On Thu, Aug 02, 2001 at 09:51:54AM -0600, Chris Grant wrote: > Terry Jeffress seemed to be arguing that the corrupt part > necessarily ruins the whole and to be applying that principle at the > level where the part is a movie scene and the whole is the movie. > If that is the only level where the principle works (and not, say, > at the level where the part is a book promoting abortion and the > whole is the bookstore), why does the principle operate that way? I only tried to point out that if you purchase a film with content you object to and have that content edited out, the filmmakers cannot know that you have objected to part of their film. The filmmakers will only see that you have given their film one more vote of approval by purchasing a personal copy of the film. By purchasing the film, you tacitly support everything in the film. Sure you can write to the filmmakers and ask them not to make objectionable scenes, but that doesn't change the fact that you supported the movie with your money -- like giving money to a cause you don't support. Thus, if you truly feel strongly enough about the content that you would pay extra to have the content excised, then you probably should not have given your economic support to the people who created the content to which you object. In my mind, an objectionable scene does not corrupt an entire work. You can choose to skip the scene. If you object to a scene, you may not want to lend your economic support the makers of that scene, but the scene doesn't render the entire movie valueless. Of course, I find some movies so objectionable that I do not want them in my home. I choose not to purchase these films, but I also recognize that others may have a different value system and do not find the films objectionable. I choose not to give my economic support to such films, but I do not think that my value judgment applies to all of humanity. So even if I do not like a movie or a book, I do not put on my holy armor and start ranting and raving at the store manager who chooses to carry the title. Heck, in most cases, the store manager gets supplied by some corporate office and makes almost no choices for the titles she carries. Even within the fairly strict sensibilities of Mormon culture, we have wide variances in film viewing. I know that if I died and left my entire film collection to my next-door neighbor (my former bishop), he would have to throw away at least half the titles because he would find them objectionable. From what I've read on the list, it sounds like the the Erics (Snyder and Samuelsen) have seen and enjoyed films that I would find objectionable. And I think we all have equal chances at reaching the Celestial kingdom. > Michael Medved has argued that Hollywood does not act as it would if > it were really trying to maximize profit. Has his claim been > refuted? Has anyone substantiated his claim? The movie industry consistently supports technology and legislation to make copying movies harder if not impossible. Look at the new High-Bandwidth Digital Content Protection scheme for new HDTV broadcasts. Under this scheme, the broadcasters can send a message with the broadcast that would prevent you from recording HDTV broadcast shows, preventing you from making recordings even for personal use. This certainly sounds like methods of maximizing profit to me. > How confident can I therefore be that my boycott will, in fact, > send a signal and not just get lost in the noise? In any case, > there are other factors to weigh when making entertainment > choices (e.g., Are there things of value in the edited movie?), > and I don't see why a desire to send a message should trump any > and all other considerations. I guess you have whether or not you want to fund the making of scenes that you object to seeing. I doubt that you would send your money to a non-profit organization that supports a cause that you oppose. I agree that one person choosing not to purchase one video will not make much economic different to mega-companies like AOL-Time-Warner, but by choosing not to purchase a video, you have the piece of mind that you did not contribute to the further development of such material. And doesn't this all come down to how we feel about ourselves anyway? We object to a movie scene because it makes us feel uncomfortable in some way. Doesn't it make sense then to eliminate any further discomfort by knowing that in no way did you contribute to the making of the scenes you would find objectionable. -- Terry L Jeffress | Never trust the artist. Trust the tale. | -- D. H. Lawrence - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Fw: MN New AP Stylebook Still Recommends "Mormon Date: 03 Aug 2001 12:49:24 -0600 At 02:24 AM 8/2/01 -0400, you wrote: >For many years the LDS Church has sought for journalists, LDS Church >members and the public to refer to the Church by its official name >instead of the familiar term "Mormon Church." In February, the New >York Times printed an interview with Elder Oaks as the Church >stepped-up efforts to get newspapers to change their policies. The >Church also asked that the Church not be called the LDS Church, >suggesting instead that "Church of Jesus Christ" be used. Well, we've been called worse things than Mormons. The name "Church of Jesus Christ" doesn't work for me because it sounds like a Protestant denomination. barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Introductions: Paul Bishop Date: 03 Aug 2001 15:55:21 -0400 Hello Paul and welcome! Just the fact that you have written for Law and Order and SUV makes me an instant fan. I plan my lunch and late night snack (I'm diabetic) around L&O reruns. I did a search of your name at www.half.com and there you were and fwiw, Chalk Whispers can be had for $3.20 to the first buyer. I may have to give you a try as I read anything and everything much to my husbands' dismay. Debbie Brown - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: RE: [AML] Audience for Mormon Lit Date: 03 Aug 2001 13:41:29 -0600 ---Original Message From: Terry L Jeffress > Sales statistics show that for sales of LDS fiction titles, > an LDS woman buys the book as a gift an not for personal > reading. I content that in most cases, these women buy based > on trust. They trust that the LDS publisher will provide > content that they can feel comfortable giving without having > to take the time to read the book first. When were these statistics gathered? The reason I ask is that it seems to me that LDS women are the typical readers, not just purchasers, of LDS fiction. I was in Deseret Book yesterday and I took a moment to just browse. You can tell a lot about trends by browsing. For one thing, you can tell a little bit about the demographics the publishers are aiming at. Cover art, title size and cover copy says a lot about the opinion of the publisher. Based on my, obviously subjective, observations, I'd say that (at least in the opinion of the publishers) the Mormon audience is as follows: The biggest audience for LDS fiction is women. By a landslide. Much of this audience is concentrated in the 15 to 25 age group, but it's pretty strong across the board. If women are buying for gifts, then they are buying for other women who are reading the books. I don't buy the argument that women aren't reading the books because there seems to be a great deal of author loyalty and that wouldn't happen in a purely gift marketplace where you are loyal to the publisher as Terry suggests. If men are reading at all, they are reading doctrinal and/or biographical books. Some young men are reading, but we're talking ages 8 to 14 or so and this is an age where the books tend to be purchased by the parents anyway. It's not a broad enough market to tell if there is author loyalty, so I'm not sure if the boys are actually reading the books. Probably. If male teens post 15 or so are reading *any* LDS lit, the publishers don't know about it and/or aren't interested in it. The hardest category to pin down is the humor. LDS humor seems to be aimed as broadly as possible which I take to mean that either we're not sure who is reading it, or it has a broad based appeal to the LDS audience. Just my observations. If you want to succeed with LDS fiction, it looks like your audience is almost exclusively women. Frankly, once I noticed this, it occurred to me that when I talk about LDS fiction in my ward, it seems that it is almost exclusively the women who will admit to reading any. It looks to me like the honest, frank Missionary story is doomed pretty much from the start. So what's with the men? Chris Heimerdinger has shown that you can make a living writing adventure stories. Older men just aren't an audience, though. In looking around my ward, I think I have something of a reason. Our men are busy. Please don't take this as a "men work harder than women" because that isn't it at all. What I mean is that men tend to over schedule their time. In my opinion, this is a bad thing and something our culture needs to come to grips with. It seems to me that a man who has free time in the evenings will tend to fill that time up with something--work, extra job training, a second job, or home repairs. Men seem to go out of their way to make sure that they have no time alone or inactive. If we rest at all, it tends to be something that is in some way social--a softball game, a movie, possibly TV. Our reading is utilitarian and tends to include informational work either for work or church. Do we feel guilty having solitary leisure? We'll go to a movie, but it's a date. We'll watch TV, but that is "family time". We'll go to ward softball, but that is a church activity. I don't see any non-social leisure time in the men around me in my ward. Personally, I wonder if this is a church thing or driven by our wider culture. I suspect it's a church thing and has its roots in our cultural imperative not to waste time. "Use your time wisely" is just short of official church doctrine. This gets translated into "Fill up all your time with recognized utilitarian activities". Solitary down time is not a recognized need. A man who is sitting down reading something with a colorful cover is a man with too much time on his hands--he's probably sinning, if not actively, then at least by omission. I've noticed that my recent reading has been more biography than fiction lately. I thought that my tastes have changed, but I'm wondering if I'm not responding to perceived cultural pressure. My shift corresponded with our move from Washington to Utah. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terri Reid Subject: RE: [AML] Introductions: Paul Bishop Date: 03 Aug 2001 16:03:04 -0700 Welcome to the group! (Okay, I just have to ask - have you ever been - a bishop? And did they call you Bishop Bishop?) ;) I checked out your website - very impressive! I'll have to check out some of your books. I would also love a copy of your article. Since we've been writing about incorporating "Mormon" themes in nationally published books and since you have books that have been published nationally - can I ask, "Do you use "Mormon" characters?" or "Do you use people with the traits of some of the church members you know, when you write?" When you write your novels, do you think about things like - "What's the deeper message here?" or are you simply telling a story? Sorry to bombard you with questions, since you just joined us - but I am very intrigued by what you've done! Thanks!!!! Terri Terri Reid Executive Producer - Midwest Region PIXELight www.itpnow.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terri Reid Subject: RE: [AML] Audience for Mormon Lit Date: 03 Aug 2001 16:20:19 -0700 -----Original Message----- Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 12:41 PM "So what's with the men? Chris Heimerdinger has shown that you can make a living writing adventure stories. Older men just aren't an audience, though. In looking around my ward, I think I have something of a reason. Our men are busy. Please don't take this as a "men work harder than women" because that isn't it at all. What I mean is that men tend to over schedule their time. In my opinion, this is a bad thing and something our culture needs to come to grips with. It seems to me that a man who has free time in the evenings will tend to fill that time up with something--work, extra job training, a second job, or home repairs. Men seem to go out of their way to make sure that they have no time alone or inactive. If we rest at all, it tends to be something that is in some way social--a softball game, a movie, possibly TV. Our reading is utilitarian and tends to include informational work either for work or church. Do we feel guilty having solitary leisure? We'll go to a movie, but it's a date. We'll watch TV, but that is "family time". We'll go to ward softball, but that is a church activity. I don't see any non-social leisure time in the men around me in my ward." I have to totally disagree on this one. My husband and my son-in-law are avid readers (too avid) and they read all kinds of fiction . I just ran to his office to pick up some of the latest authors he's been reading: Clive Cussler, Robert Ludlum, David Eddings, David Gemmell, Stephen Hunter, Noel Hynd... The list goes on. He loves to read. And, coincidentally, my daughter just dropped by to pick something up. My son-in-law stayed in the car because he was finishing a book - last chapter - I totally understand! I think the problem - at least in the parts of the country where there isn't a "Deseret Book" in your neighborhood - is that when men are looking for pleasure reading they go to amazon.com, Borders, Media Play, etc... and pick up what they like to read. When they are looking to expand their spirituality, they hop on Deseretbook.com and go to doctrinal areas. I think it's more of a marketing problem or perhaps it's more of a supply problem. Who do we have out there in deseretbook.com land that can equal or come close to some of the national authors? (I'm speaking in total ignorance, not judgement.) And, if we have them, how come we don't know about them? Terri Reid - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: [AML] Fw: MN New Products: Helmuth Hubener Story Told for Kids: Kent Larsen 2Aug01 US NY NYC A4 Date: 03 Aug 2001 17:22:27 -0400 New Products: Helmuth Hubener Story Told for Kids NEW YORK, NEW YORK -- The story of three LDS youths who defied the Nazi's during World War II is the subject of a new book from the national publisher Holiday House, which came to Mormon News' attention this week. While the story has been told before, it hasn't been written for a teen-age audience before. In addition to that book, "Brothers in Valor," New titles include books by Elder Stephen D. Nadauld, a re-issue of B.H. Robert's "Missouri Persecutions" and a local history covering the Church in Palmyra, New York, written for last year's Temple dedication. Elder Nadauld's book, "Justified by Faith" looks not only at faith, but Justification and Grace. His approach is very practical, putting his subject in down-to-earth, everyday terms. Also new is a book by Ted Gibbons, "Life is a Test," which looks at the purpose of life as if it was a school test. New and recent products: Justified by Faith, by Stephen D. Nadauld Deseret Book Book; LDS Publisher; Non-fiction; Mormon Author and Subject $18.95 Elder Nadauld takes a fresh, practical approach to faith, looking at what it means in down-to-earth, everyday terms. He ties this discussion to two other gospel principles -- justification and grace. He explains how to achieve justification and describes the role of the Holy Ghost in the process. Missouri Persecutions by B. H. Roberts Maasai Publishing Book; LDS Publisher; Non-Fiction; Mormon Author and Subject $13.95 New edition of B. H. Robert's classic account of the settling of western Missouri, identified as Zion by Joseph Smith. He identifies the reasons that neighbors were suspicious, the persecutions that followed and the Saint's exodus to Illinois. Out of print since a Bookcraft edition was published in 1965. This Life is a Test by Ted Gibbons Maasai Publishing Book; LDS Publisher; Non-Fiction; Mormon Author and Subject $11.95 Using the metaphor of a school test, Gibbons explores the purpose of life in a unique and refreshing approach to the challenges of mortality. He looks at the rules by which the test is conducted, where it is given and what the final grade is. L.D.S. Church History in the Palmyra Area 1900-2000 by Roger J. & Diane K. Adams [Self-published] Book; LDS Publisher; Non-fiction; Mormon Author and Subject $12.95 Locally-written history of the LDS Church in Palmyra since 1900, including the development of the LDS Church's Hill Cumorah pageant. Includes a chronology, a 34-page history, more than 20 pages of information about the Palmyra Temple dedication, including the Dedicatory prayer and stories about the Temple's altar cloths, moonstones, Presidency and the contents of its cornerstone. Also includes histories of the pageant, its costumes and of the Buffalo, Jamestown, Owego, Syracuse and Utica stakes. Available from Sweet Enterprises 47 Backus Road Webster,NY 14580 (716) 671-2157 or from the Cumorah Country Bookstore in Palmyra. Brothers in Valor : A Story of Resistance by Michael O. Tunnell Holiday House Book; National Publisher; Fiction; Mormon Characters $16.95 Fictionalized version for teen-agers of true story of German resistance to Hitler by three LDS youths, Rudi Ollenik, Helmuth Hubener and Karl Schneider. Troubled that the branch leader, President Zander, runs the Hamburg group "as if God, church, and Hitler were all in league," the boys join Hitler youth groups so as not to make trouble for their parents, but they loathe the Nazis. After World War II begins, Helmuth decides to fight back. He listens to the BBC broadcasts; writes up the British news to expose lies in the German media and, with Rudi and Karl's help, distributes his handbills through mail slots and in telephone booths. Caught in 1942, tried and tortured, Helmuth is executed while the other boys are sentenced to prison terms. >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morgan Adair" Subject: Re: [AML] Artists vs. Illustrators Date: 03 Aug 2001 16:01:06 -0600 >>> ThomDuncan@prodigy.net 08/01/01 11:09PM >>> > >As a writer of both, I can tell you there is a great difference between = writing >SF and writing technical manuals. The former CAN be a work of art, the = latter >must never be. In the latter, form follows function. I can't write an = SF story >without some kind of mental or spiritual preparation. Writing tech = manuals is >about as automatic as eating. A few years ago, a friend and I went drove down to Moab to pick up a load = of firewood. We took my van and pulled his trailer, which was jerry-rigged = out of the bed of an old truck. I needed a 2-inch ball on my hitch to pull = this thing, and I needed to have a larger hole drilled in the tongue of = the hitch to accommodate a 2-inch ball. My friend found a guy with a = machine shop in south Provo who could drill the hole for me. We went over = and explained what we were doing while he set up his drill press. He = drilled the hole, brushed it out with a wire brush, then slid the shank of = the ball into the hole he just drilled. It fit perfectly, with no play. I = could tell he was proud of his work. As we left, my friend said, "I guess = there's an aesthetic aspect to everything."* The Buddhist monk, Thich Nhat Hanh, teaches that there is a spiritual = aspect to everything, too. When working, walking, or even just sitting, if = you are mindful of what you are doing and its connection to other people, = other living things, and the elements of your environment, any act can be = a spiritual one. Consider how breaking bread and drinking wine can be a = profoundly spiritual experience. Mormon theology tells us there's nothing = special about the elements involved. We can substitute water for the wine, = and there is not a literal transubstantiation into the body and blood of = Christ. We're just breaking bread and drinking ordinary water together. = Our awareness of the symbolic potential of the elements converts white = bread and tepid tap water into communion with the divine. MBA (Morgan B. Adair) *For examples of technical documentation as an art form, refer to the = books of Edward R. Tufte: The Visual Display of Quantitative Information Envisioning Information Visual Explanations: Images and Quantities, Evidence and Narrative - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BJ Rowley Subject: Re: [AML] Utah Mormon Culture Date: 03 Aug 2001 16:14:17 -0600 [MOD: Just a reminder that we don't want to get into any kind of "Utah-Mormon-culture-is-like-this/No-it's-not" sort of argument. Rather, let's all take the attitude that what we're doing is sharing our perceptions and experiences of Mormon culture in different settings--a relevant question for those of us who, as readers and/or writers, have an interest in the realistic portrayal of Mormon culture in different geographic locations. In other words, let's think of this as a chance to expand our understanding of how many different people view Mormon culture, rather than as a chance to argue about "how it really is."] REWIGHT wrote: > > >My point being that it does make a difference whether you have friends >that are part of your culture or not. It's harder if everyone around you >smokes and drinks, than it is if everyone around you has the same standards >and you're going to see them in church. > I tend to disagree somewhat with this point--the problem being: what exactly ARE those "same standards?" My experience with living both IN Utah and OUT of Utah is this: IN Utah, it's VERY easy to become mediocre -- luke-warm -- indifferent. And that's BECAUSE all the kids that your kids hang out with are "Mormons" and go to church on Sunday. But not all of them are "Latter-day Saints," if you get my drift. So when one of your kids' friends (or MANY of them) do things that don't exactly agree with your standards, they come back and say, "well, THEY'RE all Mormons, so what's the problem?" The result is that too many Utah Mormons (especially the youth) are being sucked deep into the Luke-warm state. It's hard to be a shining, solid-as-a-rock Mormon around here, because so few of the LDS kids that they associate with really are. You're a Geek or a Goodie-Goodie. The High School is 95% Mormon, but there are still gangs, drugs, alcohol related problems, rapes, and teen pregnancies, etc. At the same time, it's even harder to disappear and be totally inactive, if that's your inclination. Everybody knows who you are and that you're Mormon. Our ward boundaries are measured in yards and inches almost. I can yell from one side to the other. There are less than a half dozen homes in the entire ward that are occupied by non-members, and we know who they are, too. On the other hand, OUTside of Utah, it's VERY easy to disappear and be totally inactive, if you want to. No one around for blocks and blocks needs to know you're LDS, unless you tell somebody. But if you want to be a good Mormon, you have to be a GOOD Mormon. It's almost unheard of to be mediocre or luke-warm. The pressure is just too great--from BOTH sides. I'm very much afraid of what the church leaders have prophesied about this "happy" valley and the "All Is Well In Zion" syndrome. I wish they could ALL move away to Central America for a year or two, then come back. This would be a different place, for sure. -BJ Rowley - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BJ Rowley Subject: Re: [AML] Introductions: Paul Bishop Date: 03 Aug 2001 16:32:42 -0600 Welcome, Paul. Glad you could join us. I'm sure there are many here who will benefit from your vast experience. Enjoy! -BJ Rowley - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: Re: [AML] Utah Mormon Culture Date: 03 Aug 2001 16:50:44 -0600 On Thu, Aug 02, 2001 at 05:39:51PM -0500, REWIGHT wrote: > My point being is that it does make a difference whether you have friends > that are part of your culture or not. It's harder if everyone around you > smokes and drinks, than it is if everyone around you has the same standards > and you're going to see them in church. Kids like to part of a group and > not everyone has the luxury of having good infulences around them. I had the exact opposite experience. Of the 1200 students at my high school, only I belonged to the LDS church. In my case, my friends had no idea what to expect from a Mormon, so whatever I did defined what Mormon's did. Just for a frame of reference, I did not smoke, drink, take drugs, or engage in pre-marital sexual activity while in high school, but plenty of people I know did. When I arrived at BYU as a freshman, I found that everyone already had an expectation of how a good Mormon boy should act. Of course, almost no one really behaved like a good Mormon boy, but in measuring each other, we always seemed to fall back on this cultural standard. I had a lot more stress trying to live up to the assumed cultural Mormon standard. I think that, at least in the United States, that we share a much larger culture of which our Mormonness only comprises a small portion. In other words, I beleive that Americans in general have much more in common as a whole, even when you discount religion. -- Terry L Jeffress | If you can't annoy somebody with what | you write, I think there's little point | in writing. -- Kingsley Amis - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gerald G Enos Subject: Re: [AML] Fw: MN New AP Stylebook Still Recommends "Mormon Church": Date: 03 Aug 2001 17:12:27 -0600 There is a church called The Church of Christ so calling our church The Church of Jesus Christ would be confusing for alot of people. Konnie Enos ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gerald G Enos Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 03 Aug 2001 16:38:41 -0600 Ronn, Very interesting. I was baptized a year later on July 8th. I wasn't going to speak up on this topic but my uncle met his wife soon after returning from his mission, taught her the discussions, baptized her and married her all in only a couple of months. Now their oldest is on a mission. Konnie Enos ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Grant Subject: Re: [AML] Editing Literature Date: 03 Aug 2001 17:33:11 -0600 Terry L Jeffress writes: [...] >Thus, if you truly feel strongly enough about the content that >you would pay extra to have the content excised, then you >probably should not have given your economic support to the >people who created the content to which you object. I don't see why the level of objectionable material sufficient to warrant a boycott should necessarily be less than or equal to the level sufficient to warrant paying for editing. Suppose, for example, that, contrary to reports, this December's "Fellowship of the Ring" movie includes a very small amount of R-rated material but otherwise captures the beauty of Tolkien's book. If I boycott, then I don't provide financial support to New Line Cinema and I don't have to see the R-rated material, but I don't get to watch the good parts of the movie. If I buy an edited version, then I do provide financial support to New Line Cinema (and to the local editing company), but I also get to enjoy the movie without having to see the R-rated material. It seems quite likely that my desire to penalize New Line Cinema for including such material and my confidence in their ability to detect the penalty I seek to impose would be outweighed by my desire to enjoy the cleaned-up version. [...] >>Michael Medved has argued that Hollywood does not act as it >>would if it were really trying to maximize profit. Has his >>claim been refuted? > >Has anyone substantiated his claim? Medved attempts to substantiate his own claim by providing statistics that seem to indicate a mismatch between Hollywood's choices and consumer demand. I don't know if anyone's been able to show that these statistics don't really indicate what Medved says they do. >The movie industry consistently supports technology and >legislation to make copying movies harder if not impossible. [...] >This certainly sounds like methods of maximizing profit to me. I don't deny that Hollywood tries to do some things to increase their profit. What I don't think is clear is that they try to do this consistently and with respect to a wide set of parameters. [...] >I doubt that you would send your money to a non-profit >organization that supports a cause that you oppose. I give to the United Way but haven't bothered to check whether I agree with all the causes of all the organizations funded by my contribution. I give to political candidates, knowing full well that I'm unlikely to agree with every single action they'll take if elected. I donate to Friends of Scouting, even though I'm opposed to the destruction of dinosaur tracks. ;-) Sure, if things got bad enough I might respond with my own personal boycott. I canceled my subscription to _First Things_ because of the editor's offensive comments about the Church, I canceled my subscription to _Dialogue_ for a number of reasons, and I don't buy books from Signature Books unless they're on the 75%-off rack. By the way, in yesterday's _Deseret News_ there was a story about Utah video stores editing videos. The story says that the owner of Clean Cut Videos in Layton "expects to have edited DVDs in two months" (whatever that means). Chris Grant grant@math.byu.edu - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Bigelow Subject: [AML] Irreantum Proofers Needed Date: 06 Aug 2001 11:22:05 -0600 Irreantum requests people to read through the 94-page proof of our summer issue to look for typos, formatting errors, etc. We can send it to you via PDF, and you can either fax or e-mail back your corrections. Or if you are local, you can contact me to make arrangements to swap paper copies. The deadline for changes will be Monday, August 13, 5:00 p.m. Mountain Time, so don't volunteer unless you can make that deadline. Thank you in advance! This is a great service that helps our volunteer magazine be much more professional. Contact Chris Bigelow at irreantum2@cs.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] Cell Phones (was: Something Else) Date: 03 Aug 2001 17:08:57 -0500 At 02:32 PM 8/2/01, you wrote: >At 11:12 PM 7/30/01 -0500, you wrote: >>If you were male, you could wear it on your belt. > >No, like many other women, I walk along minding my own business and then=20 >my purse starts to ring. This is just one of the many ludicrous aspects of= =20 >our culture, which is SO ripe for parody. > > >Barbara R. Hume >barbara@techvoice.com Such as being in the middle of a class when a cell phone starts to ring,=20 and half the class (whose phones all play the same tune when they ring) AND= =20 the teacher all get theirs from their belt or purse or book bag to see if=20 it is for them? (Why isn't there a rule that they be turned off during class? Because=20 several members of my class are parents, perhaps even single parents, who=20 get urgent calls from or about their kids, and others are "on call" from=20 their jobs, which include law-enforcement officers.) Or, to make a token=20 attempt to be on-topic, substitute "sacrament meeting" for "class"=20 (especially _during_ the passing of the sacrament), "the bishop" for "the=20 teacher," and perhaps instead of "law-enforcement officer" have the bishop= =20 be an "emergency-room physician," which would have described the bishop I=20 had last year before they re-arranged the ward boundaries (AFAIK he is=20 still the bishop of the First Ward).* Speaking of something else along these lines one could use for parody: I=20 recently read an article stating that some wild _birds_ (presumably living= =20 in the central business district of a city, where they would have a lot of= =20 opportunities to hear them) have learned to imitate the sounds made by=20 ringing cell phones: I don't suppose you've been walking along there in=20 Happy Valley, heard a ringing sound, and checked your purse only to find=20 out it was a bird? _Yet_, anyway . . . Another thing that I know looks funny (because I have seen others doing it= =20 and it looks strange): people walking along and talking on a cell-phone=20 using a "hands free" headset. Particularly one of those in which the=20 earpiece is also a bone-conduction microphone. So if you don't see the=20 thin wire running from the holster on their belt to their ear, it looks=20 very much like the person is walking down the street having a conversation= =20 with the voices in his head. I was doing just that last year when I was=20 out in Utah, walking through University Mall in Orem while getting=20 directions as to where things had been relocated by the construction that=20 was going on then (and, knowing how other construction projects in Utah=20 have gone, for all I know may still be going on) from Thom's wife Margie=20 who IIRC was driving around in their car at the time. As I was doing so, I= =20 passed a woman coming the other way who was also talking to someone through= =20 her ear (which, I suppose, if you _have_ to talk through an orifice other=20 than your mouth, is not the worst possible choice . . . ) And when we're done with cell phones, we can talk about people who have=20 their laptop computers programmed with voice-recognition software=20 (_everybody_ yells at their computer, but _theirs_ answer back) . . . ----- *Let's not even mention all of the people on the stand, along with half the= =20 congregation, playing=97oh, I'm sorry: doing some _important_ ward business= =20 (yeah, right)=97with their PDAs during, for example, the monthly address= from=20 the dry councilman . . . ;-) ----- --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Craig Huls Subject: [AML] Re: Introductions: Paul Bishop Date: 03 Aug 2001 18:54:35 -0500 Paul Bishop wrote: > I've been interested in the recent thread on the list relating > to selling novels to movies and retaining any kind of control > over the finished product. That type of control doesn't exist. > If an author is insistent about retaining creative control or > tries to have any say over the screenplay, final cut of the > movie, etc., the offer from the studio to buy the rights will > disappear. > > I recently sold the rights to one of my early books with the > understanding I would write (and be paid for) the first draft of > the sceenplay. Once that draft is turned in, however, the > studio could very well hire another writer to rewrite my draft > or create a second draft from > scratch. It is not uncommon for a screenplay to go through ten > or more drafts and writers before actually getting made (or > not). > > Writing novels and writing screenplays are very different arts. > One of my Writer's Digest articles from earlier this year dealt > with the transition from novelist to screenwriter. If anyone is > interested, I'd be happy to email you a copy. > > Paul Bishop > http://www.BookRadio.com/Bishop > Welcome Paul, your site is interesting. Your background will be most useful to this list as one who has been out there doing it! Look forward to your contributions! This bunch is pretty opinionated but lots of fun and even when they bark they don't bite ( well not hard anyway!) I would appreciate a copy of your article, I let my subscription to writers digest expire couple years ago. to save looking: please mailto:dcraigh@onramp.net and thanks in advance! Where is your boy serving his mission? Craig Huls plano, tx - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Craig Huls Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 03 Aug 2001 18:54:35 -0500 Jerry Tyner wrote: > There is one other movie that is a personal favorite of mine which has Mel > Gibson. It was called Forever Young. To my recollection this had no sex in > it and was a very touching story. > > Jerry Tyner > > - Jerry, I agree. Great Movie! I need to get it out and run it through again. I can still see the kids eyes as he put that B-XX down on the ground! WE need more of those movies, at least for my generation! Craig Huls plano, tx - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Utah Mormon Culture Date: 03 Aug 2001 21:36:16 -0600 Anna Wight wrote: >By the way, I love the Mormons in Utah, but I have spoken to some of them, >and they really do have no idea that life is different outside of their >valley. Unless they've lived somewhere else or served a mission. And my argument is that this is true of every region everywhere on the planet. My little suburb northwest of Chicago was different than downtown, and it was different from the north, west, and southern suburbs in some very spectacular ways. And don't even get me started on New York or LA's belief that no other cities in the world exist or matter. This kind of centrism is not unique to Utah, and it's not unique to Mormons. Our case is complicated by the fact that we have a large international population that looks to one geographical area as a sort of home base. Utah is the seat of authority for the global church, so the global church tends to get more exposure to Utah culture and politics than other groups do. People here do feel like they have a closer touch to orthodox authority, and that attitude can get really, *really* annoying really quickly. But Utahns in general are no more short sighted or narrow than any other group defined by a particular geographic region. They just have a larger audience for their expressions of local flavor. In my opinion. Scott Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Mission of Mormon Letters? Date: 03 Aug 2001 21:36:45 -0600 Jeff Savage wrote: > > Scott Parkin wrote: > > > I think the issue comes back to what's being published. As you point > > out, the only LDS-oriented publishers who are on the average Mormon's > > radar screen are Signature, best known for its critical/anti stance > > against traditional cultural Mormonism, and a number of small or > > niche publishers like Cedar Fort that have a limited acceptance and > > impact on the total LDS market. > >I'm confused by your statement, you say that the only publishers on the >average Mormon's radar are the same publishers that have limited acceptance >in the LDS market. I left a word out. It should have read "...the only *other* LDS-oriented publishers..." What I'm talking about is not the mainstream press, but rather the edge press that's most likely to take chances on new or different kinds of fiction. I have already expressed my fairly extreme dissatisfaction with what DB and Covenant publish. Yes, I acknowledge that they are reaching out beyond the limits they have traditionally established for themselves. They are slowly extending their offerings in very carefully controlled measures--as they must to avoid alienating their existing market. But I want the revolution to progress more quickly. I want to see more stories that are edgy, literary, and faithful. The stuff I want to see is too faithful for Signature, but too disturbing for DB or Covenant. It's stuff that should make the reader squirm because it forces them to reconsider what and why they believe, while still accepting grace and the restoration as real events. Since the Big 2.5 (DB, Covenant, Signature) can't publish the stuff I want to see without risking wholesale defection from their existing customer base, I believe that the big revolutions in Mormon literature will come from other publishers. It will be in the edge press that starts with limited acceptance or distribution that such a revolution starts. It will take a popular book from outside the mainstream publishers to create the larger market and to prove to the Big 2.5 that there is another (paying) market segment that demands a kind of book that they don't currently publish. Orson Scott Card started such an effort with his Hatrack River line. His original intent was to publish stuff that was a little more edgy, but still faithful to revealed gospel. But his revolution stalled for reasons that I'm not privy to--a pity, IMO, because Card has both the power and the respect to get attention for his authors in both the Mormon and the national markets. Perhaps there have been others, I don't know off hand. I know there has been a lot of self-publishing that has suffered from a lack of competent editorial help. I hope that either a new press will spring up that has both a strong editorial vision and a competent distribution arm, or that an existing publisher will open a new imprint to test the case. I'm not silly enough to believe that such an outboard press would take the Mormon market by storm. Yes, I hope such a press could become a major player in the market, but I would also be content if it just illustrated that Mormons will buy and read other kinds of fiction. I hope it can change the way Mormons think about fiction, and hopefully recover the large number of Mormon readers who refuse to come near the traditional offerings in the mainstream Mormon press. Change always comes from the outside, and starts with humble whisperings to a small audience. But with time, patience, and quality, the whisper can become a mighty shout that moves even the established publishers to listen. >Do you really believe this? If these are the only publishers on the average >Mormon's radar screen. Why aren't they blowing away the big 2.5 in sales? >Browse through the average Mormon's bookshelf and I think that most of the >LDS titles will be from DB/BC or Covenant. Quality. Most of the books offered by the other publishers simply aren't very good, and that limits their sales. No one talks about them, no buzz is started, so the titles languish--as they should. One of the things you have to appreciate about DB and Covenant is that there is a minimum baseline of quality--of writing, storytelling, and physical production--that promises their readers that their dollar will not be wholly wasted. Sadly, many of the off-brand presses are plagued with a lack of such basic quality, and that undermines how seriously the audience can take them. >You could just as easily say that >the existence of the Arena football league is proof that most sports fans >want more than they are getting from the NFL, No, the existence of the Arena Football League is proof that there is an audience that is not satisfied with the other sports entertainment offerings available at that time of the year in those cities. The Arena league is far from ready to topple the NFL, but it is a testing ground that the NFL pays attention to and takes lessons from. I never said anything about *most* people; I said that *some* people want a different kind of literature than they're getting. I don't propose to eliminate or replace anything in the existing Mormon publishing market, but rather to extend and supplement it with a broader offering. I want to claim readers who don't buy fiction from DB or Covenant. I want to increase the total readership (and thus the total available market) by engaging those who are not currently engaged. Salt Lake City doesn't have an NFL team, but it does have an Arena team. The market exists, and is strong enough to support an off-brand product. I believe the same is true of other kinds of literature. >or in a more inflamitory >example, that the existance of the KKK is proof that most Americans want >more (or less) than they are getting from our current racial policies. But the existence of the KKK *is* proof of a group of people who are dissatisfied with the other political action groups dealing with race issues in America today. I make no comments about the validity of their message. But their success is an indication that there are enough people in the national audience to keep them alive and active. Again, I never said anything about *most.* I'm talking niche, here. A small group of people who want to see something different and are willing to pay for it once they trust that it's available. I do believe, however, that once a niche is established it can and often does grow to become a major influence on the remaining market. Rock and Roll came to dominate a market that had been previously owned by Big Band or Swing. People didn't know they would like it until they heard it, then they voted with their buying dollars. I believe the Mormon publishing market will yet see several such revolutions before the end of time. I believe the faithful/edgy story can be one such revolutionary movement. >I am not in any way likening any LDS publishers to the KKK, but my point is >that there will always be niche publishers. The big publishers cater to the >masses and the smaller publishers focus on their niche groups. And every >once in a while, hallaluah!, David reaches out and beats Goliath. But you >could just as easily say that the fact that these publishers remain small >shows something else. Absolutely. I reiterate--I'm not suggesting that the current publishers need to be ousted, hoisted, herded, or otherwise abolished. I think they do what they do very well and will continue to be successful--as they should be. But I think most of the innovation will come from the edges. And if the edge hits hard and fast, it might take over the market. If so, great--it means the public wanted something different. I tend to think (as it sounds like you also believe) that such efforts will tend to remain small and will have their impact by informing new generations of writers and by expanding the total market, not supplanting existing markets. At least, that's what I think today. Scott Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] _Testaments of One Fold and One Shepherd_ Date: 03 Aug 2001 22:03:02 -0500 Tyler Moulton: Is it possible for a film to have obvious imperfections, but draw upon truths that are so powerfully real to the audience that the effect is profoundly moving? [...] That was my response to Testaments. _______________ I believe this to be true. I believe we take who we are into the theater with us, and the film builds on that base. In my experience, the stronger the base, and the more I agree with what the film is saying, the more willingly I accept imperfections. This works up to a point, after which a rotten film is just plain rotten. That point of conversion is probably different for each of us. I think Testaments had a good chance of touching those who are not members because of the New Testament scenes. For a member, I think both the NT and the visit of the Savior from the Book of Mormon had the best chance of touching a resonant chord. Meaningless to someone unfamiliar with the words to Primary children's songs, the composer snuck in just one little line of such a song at just the right place that touched me in a very special way. My wife, who also knew the unspoken words to the song, was similarly affected. In the same way, some of the music in Legacy was much more powerful for those who knew the words than for those who did not, I believe. Did Testaments work overall? As I understand the purpose of the film and Kieth's assignment, yes. The details, of course, will have to wait for the review. Larry Jackson ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Needle" Subject: [AML] Granite Publishing Query Date: 03 Aug 2001 22:34:28 -0700 Hello all. Does anyone know if Granite Publishing in Salt Lake City is a vanity publisher, or are they more like Deseret Book, publishing works for the Church? (Not a well-worded question, but you know what I'm asking.) Thanks. [Jeff Needle] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: [AML] Misc. Observations Date: 04 Aug 2001 04:45:27 -0500 At 02:41 PM 8/2/01, Jeff Savage wrote: >Now can we >get them to publish a book about a huge, rabid, missionary who goes on a >killing spree in a small NE town. Hmmm.... OK, just as long as he makes sure to submit the names of his victims to the nearest temple for posthumous baptism . . . At 11:26 AM 8/3/01, amelia parkin wrote: >sorry. i write in tangents. That's OK. I underline a lot of words and use so many exclamation points that some might say that I write in hyperbolic tangents . . . [Get Laurel to explain it to you, Jonathan . . .] At 02:41 PM 8/3/01, Jacob Proffitt wrote: >A man who is sitting down reading >something with a colorful cover is a man with too much time on his >hands--he's probably sinning, if not actively, then at least by >omission. So _that's_ why I haven't been translated yet . . . [Ronn Blankenship] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: Re: [AML] Fw: MN New AP Stylebook Still Recommends "Mormon Date: 01 Jan 2001 00:02:35 -0600 on 8/3/01 12:49 PM, Barbara Hume at barbara@techvoice.com wrote: > Well, we've been called worse things than Mormons. True. >The name "Church of > Jesus Christ" doesn't work for me because it sounds like a Protestant > denomination. But, since it came from his own lips as the proper name of the church.... :-) Steve -- skperry@mac.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Marjorie Willson" Subject: Re: [AML] Utah Mormon Culture Date: 04 Aug 2001 18:08:16 -0600 >In the end it's up to the kid. But it is easier if you can hang out wit= h >kids who have the same value system. > >By the way, I love the Mormons in Utah, but I have spoken to some of the= m, >and they really do have no idea that life is different outside of their >valley. Unless they've lived somewhere else or served a mission. > You bet the kids in Utah have problems, just like kids anywhere else. I = wonder why people in the "Mission Field" think that just because someone = is born and raised in Utah with a strong Mormon heritage and fine upstand= ing active parents, that they automatically have a built in testimony and= value system just like that of their parents and the majority of the com= munity? When the kids in Utah heard the general authorities say, "Dare t= o be different!" Boy did they ever dare. Our schools are full of wannabe= gangbangers who try to imitate what they see in the movies and on TV. I= 'd like to load a bus up with these youngsters and take them to the heart= of LA and turn them loose. The trouble with that is it would be the equ= ivalent of murder. At least half of them would never make it home again. = The rest of them would never be the same. My point is and what we should be writing about when we attempt to portra= y life in the Mormon culture, is everyone in the church, no matter where = they are born or what their heritage is, has to get their own witness and= find their own way back to Father in Heaven. There is no such thing as a= first class round trip ticket. We were all sent here to earth to be tes= ted and each test is specially designed by the Father for the person taki= ng the test. Bill Willson - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: [AML] Marden Clark turned 85 (Baby Langford 1), Bessie Clark turns 82 Date: 05 Aug 2001 14:30:56 -0700 I was cleaning out some old messages [MOD: a year old] and came across this reply to Jonathan Langford from Borenson about new fatherhood (Hey, maybe Binnesman's cure worked after all--I haven't got to the end yet.), and when I looked at the date I realized 13 July is my father's birthday. Born 1916 in the midst of WWI. I was going to announce it on the list but my modem was down for most of July. He's in good health (except for this annoying heart problem, which the doctor says may leave him with about 3 years--and that may have been a year ago. He comes from a family of long lived men--when his great uncle Amasa (lived to be 101, I think, and had his picture on cover of Children's Friend and Ensign several times because he was one of the original primary kids, so he's in the mural in the rock chapel in Farmington) was in the hospital once in his 90s his older brothers came to visit him and he was out of his room--visiting the sick. Dad's uncle Lawrence lived into his 90s and was still irrigating at my father's age and my father is still gardening at the age Uncle Lawrence was still irrigating. But the longevity seems to have skipped my father's generation. His older brothers died in their late 70s or early 80s (Uncle Harlan in the Temple in Johannesberg, where he was the president and had just performed a wedding, and had a heart attack, I think) And then there was Leon who died at about my age when a silo he was climbing burst open and buried him in barley. My father is now about the age his father was when he died, but in much better health, not in an oxygen tent. Tomorrow, Aug. 6, is my mother's 82nd birthday (quite a fireworks display on her 26th). She just read me a story she's working on about a woman passing thru Nevada on the Sabbath (after coming home from her son-in-law's funeral--dead of a heart attack at 60 (similar to my brother-in-law, Bruce Campbell--do we have a motif motivating this thread?) who puts a quarter in a slot machine to reimforce the lesson that gambling is wrong, pulls the handle and as she's walking away hears plink, plink, plink, plink,plink, plink and resists the temptation to turn around and see if she's hit the jackpot. She's in better health than my father--no heart murmur at least, so I hope she doesn't do something foolish like pine away for him (ok, my pun sense demands something like, 'she'll spruce her life back up'). She has outlived all her brothers except Jack/John. Tomorrow is also the Soderborg family reunion ("I don't know how much longer we'll keep having these reunions. Everyone's gone except Jack and me, and the families are getting so big" (and Florence May and George Hyrum Soderborg now have great great grandchildren, that is, their grandchildren are grandparents.) Don's wife, Norma, remarried an 85 year old man. She was looking forward to introducing him at the reunion, but they were hiking in Glacier National Park(?) and he fell off a glacier and met Angela Hopewell, that merciful adversary from Trail of Dreams. I share John Brown's distaste for her, btw, I'd just as soon she didn't show herself again in my family for a while. Harlow S. Clark On Thu, 13 Jul 2000 16:49:49 -0600 "J. Scott Bronson" writes: > > Apologies for this morning's interruption of List posts. > > > Mother and child doing well. > > > > These two items, of course, have nothing whatever to do with each > > other. :^) > > > > Jonathan Langford > > While my wife was in the hospital in labor with our fourth child, I was > making phone calls from her room to finalize details with the program > for the Castle Theatre productions that year. She still talks about it. > > Go be with your wife and baby Jonathan or you'll never hear the end > of it. > > scott - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Mission of Mormon Letters? Date: 05 Aug 2001 20:59:24 -0600 Melissa Proffitt wrote: > I had developed a story that I thought was very strong, about a subject I > cared about, in a genre I love. I discovered that the combination of all > those things created a story that was beyond my ability--beyond my comfort > level--to tell. To do so would have meant immersing myself in a world I > didn't want to be in, without any guarantee that I could eventually pull it > off. It was, in short, a story I decided I didn't want to tell. My > solution was to set it aside. > > Understand that I did not do this lightly. I do not come up with plots > easily and I almost never come up with plots that mean something. I worked > at this for three years before I stopped. Also, it's not the only solution. > Another writer might have found a better way to tell the story; others might > not have worried about the kind of story it was going to be. But as far as > I could tell, it had to be a bloody, dark, twisted tale about some really > evil things, and sanitizing that vision would have meant sacrificing > something really powerful. And I decided I would rather not write it at all > than write something wishy-washy. I fully endorse Melissa's solution. I believe the only two acceptable choices are to tell the story as it should be told, or to not tell the story at all. The second solution is just as artistically viable as the first, if rather painful (as Melissa found out). But to introduce a third alternative--sanitizing--is something to be shunned. Sacrificing the power, creating something wishy-washy--these are things I don't believe an author should do. Either tell the story as it should be told, or don't tell that story. Tell a different story, one that is best told "sanitarily." Don't sanitize ones that need to be told strongly. Leave them for someone who is willing to tackle them, if you're not. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Movie Rights Date: 05 Aug 2001 21:10:34 -0600 Rex Goode wrote: > This is an important question to me as I write about sexually-charged topics > in my novel doing my best to avoid vivid portrayals. I can succeed in the > written word, but if anyone were to make a movie out of it, I'd feel like a > pornographer. I'm not even counting on being published much less making a > movie sale, but I have decisions to make. When you sell your book to the publisher, retain the movie rights. This is something you should do anyway. But that way, you can control who makes the movie and negotiate on how scenes may be portrayed. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Williams Subject: RE: [AML] Editing Literature Date: 05 Aug 2001 21:59:40 -0600 >> Is there really that big of a difference between a work of art that >> you _see_ and a work of art that you _taste_? > >Not at all -- if you own an original. Once you purchase a work of >art, you have the right to do with it as you please. If you were to >somehow purchase the Mona Lisa from the Louve, you could choose to >burn it. When you purchase the bacon-wrapped fillet mignon, you get >an original creation, and you can choose to put catsup or A-1 sauce on >it, despite the looks of disgust you'll get from your fellow patrons, >the servers, and possibly the chef. > >Now books differ in a way because you haven't really purchased the >original. Instead, you own a single user license. You can use your >copy in any way approved by your license. In this case, the local and >federal copyright laws define the license. You can write in, >mutilate, or burn your copy of the book, but you cannot choose to make >a duplicate copy and sell that copy to someone else. I'm confused about what you mean by "original creation." Could you please clarify? How do I own the "original" fillet mignon, but not the "original" book? And how does "owning the original" and "NOT owning the original" produce exactly the same results? In the first paragraph: I own the "original" creation, therefore I can put catsup, A-1 sauce, or whatever on it-- edit as I please. In the second paragraph: I do not own the "original" creation, therefore I can write in it, burn it, mutilate it or whatever--edit as I please. What's the difference? It seems to me like you are actually proving my point--or that we actually agree and are merely arguing about he appropriateness of the metaphor. Again, my point: In the same way that people are allowed (or at least not frowned upon) to "edit" recipes according to their personal tastes and sensitivities, so should they be allowed to edit their own movies/literature according to their own tastes and sensitivities. That's it. >but you cannot choose to make a duplicate copy and sell that copy to someone else. I don't remember suggesting that one should. --John - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 05 Aug 2001 22:49:41 -0600 Alan Rex Mitchell wrote: > Also, I like him because Brigham was a man > who was not dominated by his sexual desires. With 47 wives, he probably didn't have enough sexual desire left to dominate a flea. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 05 Aug 2001 23:15:22 -0600 REWIGHT wrote: > > [Me:] In the world of Jack Weyland, the > > Mormon boy meets a non-Mormon girl, and literally days later, she's > > taking the discussions from the missionaries. Of course she ends up > > baptized. This just doesn't happen in real life. > It happens all the time. > > I was baptised three weeks after my first initial contact with the > missionaries. I never drank, smoked, and at the time, I was a 17 year old > virgin. > > Does that make me unbelievable? Everything about you is unbelievable, Annie-poo! And no, I don't know myself what I meant by that cryptic retort. I just got off a two-week vacation with the family. Give me a break. Ever since making the above comment, everyone's been writing in about exceptions to my rule. So I guess I have to qualify it. In the real world of billions of people, all sorts of bizarre things can and do happen. But as a percentage of the population, they are extremely rare events, almost to the point of nonexistence. All the anecdotes to the contrary notwithstanding, I say that it just doesn't happen that teens and college age kids start taking Mormon missionary discussions literally days after meeting a member of the opposite sex they have an at-first-sight attraction to. Anna, your story doesn't even qualify because you said three weeks after meeting the missionaries, not three days after meeting a boy you liked. I know some people, after meeting the missionaries, get converted quickly. That's where the term "golden contact" came from. But for a boy in a romance situation to foist missionary lessons on a brand new potential girlfriend days after meeting her? Who are these weird people? I wouldn't have been so crass in my youth. Talk about pushy! But that's precisely what happened over and over again in a collection of Jack Weyland short stories I read a few months ago. It happened with such clockwork regularity that you'd think one of the Newtonian laws of motion you learn about in physics is "Girls who meet Mormon boys take missionary discussions three days later." THIS JUST DOESN'T HAPPEN IN REAL LIFE! -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terri Reid Subject: [AML] Welcome to My Living Room Date: 06 Aug 2001 09:47:51 -0700 [MOD: Amen, sister. Amen.] The other day I got a message from a list member who thought I was offended by something that they had written. So, I wondered if I might have inadvertently sent a wrong "message" to the group. The way I picture this group is like a big group of folks sitting around my living room. We're all comfortable on chairs, on the floor - wherever you'd like to sit - and we're just discussing this wonderful art of ours, writing. And sometimes I'll be nodding my head - yes, I totally agree with that (except because it's cyber, you can't see me) and sometimes I'll think - no, I don't quite agree with that and then I'll add my two cents. And perhaps, because you can't see the grin, my subtle(?) idea of humor doesn't quite come across. So, sorry if any of the messages I've sent have come across have been offensive or seemed as if I were offended - I'm pretty thick skinned. And thank you all for letting me sit with you in my living room! Terri Terri Reid Executive Producer - Midwest Region PIXELight www.itpnow.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: RE: [AML] Audience for Mormon Lit Date: 06 Aug 2001 15:05:17 -0600 ---Original Message From: Terri Reid > -----Original Message----- > From: Jacob Proffitt [SMTP:Jacob@Proffitt.com] > >> "So what's with the men? Chris Heimerdinger has shown that >> you can make a living writing adventure stories. Older men >> just aren't an audience, though. In looking around my ward, >> I think I have something of a reason. Our men are busy. >> Please don't take this as a "men work harder than women" >> because that isn't it at all. What I mean is that men tend >> to over schedule their time. In my opinion, this is a bad >> thing and something our culture needs to come to grips with. >> It seems to me that a man who has free time in the evenings >> will tend to fill that time up with something--work, extra >> job training, a second job, or home repairs. Men seem to go >> out of their way to make sure that they have no time alone or >> inactive. If we rest at all, it tends to be something that >> is in some way social--a softball game, a movie, possibly TV. >> Our reading is utilitarian and tends to include >> informational work either for work or church. Do we feel >> guilty having solitary leisure? We'll go to a movie, but >> it's a date. We'll watch TV, but that is "family time". >> We'll go to ward softball, but that is a church activity. I >> don't see any non-social leisure time in the men around me in >> my ward." > > I have to totally disagree on this one. My husband and my > son-in-law are > avid readers (too avid) and they read all kinds of fiction . > I just ran to > his office to pick up some of the latest authors he's been > reading: Clive > Cussler, Robert Ludlum, David Eddings, David Gemmell, Stephen > Hunter, Noel > Hynd... The list goes on. He loves to read. And, > coincidentally, my > daughter just dropped by to pick something up. My son-in-law > stayed in the > car because he was finishing a book - last chapter - I > totally understand! Well, since I'm only giving my impression based on my observations, I can't offer anything more than my already stated anecdotal evidence to counter your anecdotal evidence. I admit that I'm generalizing based on what I see in Deseret Book. I could be way wrong, but it looks to me, based on what I see when I go there, like men are not reading LDS fiction. My paragraph above is my attempt to postulate a reason for this with the assumption that my observation is true. It's a hypothesis based on an assumption based on an observation. Not something I'd take for gospel truth. The reason I wrote about it at all is to see if my hypothesis is countered or reinforced by anyone else's experience. Ideally, I'd hope that some of the subscribed publishers could enlighten me with actual statistics or marketing studies. Or anyone else who has actual evidence for the reading habits of LDS men (or any other LDS demographics we might have). I was struck by the imbalance and I think that it could be based on evidence of buying patterns. It could help explain why the Missionary Novel seems to be doomed for example. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BISH8@aol.com Subject: [AML] re: Introductions: Paul Bishop Date: 06 Aug 2001 17:19:01 EDT Thanks to all the warm welcomes to the list. In answer to Terri Reed's questions - 1) They keep threatening to make me Bishop Bishop, but it hasn't happend yet -- possibly because my roots are to deep in the Laihona camp. 2) So far I have not used 'Mormon characters' in my fiction, although I have always been intrigued to try a series of mysteries where the main character is a Mormon Bishop to compete with all the Jewish rabbi, Catholic priests, and nuns who are already an established part of the mainstream mystery genre. 3) When I started writing I was only concerned with telling a good story. I was too inexperienced to worry about deeper meaning without sounding as if I was on a soapbox. As I have grown as a writer and honed my skills, the deeper meaning to stories has emerged as a concern. I am now more aware of the messages I'm sending and approach the writing accordingly. I believe my job as a writer is to entertain a reader. My goal, however, is to make the reader think. If I can accomplish both, then I've been fully successful. 4) Writing for an established television show, however, is entirely different. There are so many people with input into your writing, that any deeper message gets rung out before the second draft. Had some good news last week. Warner books has asked me to write two true crime books. The bad news is they want them yesterday. I'm trying to get some wiggle room from them while I complete a screenplay from a novel that I believe has great potential. I was pounding away at it all weekend, and see it begining to take shape. Paul Bishop - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terri Reid Subject: RE: [AML] Editing Literature Date: 06 Aug 2001 16:23:40 -0700 I remember a TV show - about 15 years ago - that starred Robert Urich as a detective. I really liked the show. Then in one episode his girlfriend became pregnant and the conclusion at the end of the show was that she got an abortion. I never watched the show again. Did it make the show go away? No, it lasted a couple more seasons. Did anyone at the network know that I was doing it? No, but now I am sure to write letters and let them know. Did I feel better about my decision to boycott it? Yep, I sure did. Now, perhaps if enough people voted with their money - through not buying a video, not going to a movie, not watching a TV show - perhaps then, Hollywood would get the message. Because Hollywood is not interested in art - Hollywood is interested in money. Terri Terri Reid Executive Producer - Midwest Region PIXELight www.itpnow.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: Re: [AML] Creative Use of Language Date: 06 Aug 2001 15:24:56 -0600 On Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 12:26:49PM -0400, Amelia Parkin wrote: > The thing I really want to get at is how difficult it is to create > something strange and unusual--whether it be in word or in paint or > in whatever medium. I think we need to allow new art forms the > opportunity to speak to us on their own terms, rather than to > project terms onto them--terms by which we demand they speak but by > which they do not speak and may never speak. But "strange and unusual" work doesn't necessarily become accepted and usual. I certainly advocate openness when looking at new forms of art, but I also reserve the right to brand that art with my own opinion -- couched in my own terms. Anyone who walks through a college or university fine arts building can see numerous examples of strange and unusual art. In most cases, these artists never gain world acclaim or even local fame. Most attempts at new art fail miserably -- and rightly so. > This is even more difficult when it comes to literary arts. We have > higher demands of literature when it comes to making sense. We > expect words and sentences to function in a certain way--to convey > meaning. And when they do not, it is even more of an affront than > when a painting is not only unrealistic but also completely > non-representational. We must also look at the level of investment. When I look at a new painting, I usually make up my mind in three or four seconds whether to keep looking or move on to the next painting. I don't have to spend very much time with works that I don't like. With literature, you must invest much more time to even begin to decide if you like the work or not. When I read, I want to feel that I have spent my time profitably. > Of course, this is a bit of a two-edged sword. Language is like > that. Because we all use it and because it is a common tool, we > expect that we can understand it. But when someone creates > something that doesn't use language according to its own > rules--radically does not--we tend to recognize how difficult that > is (I'm thinking of Joyce's _Finnigan's Wake_) and acclaim it as > genius. I think you have confused the rules of language with the forms of literature. When Joyce wrote a sentence, the subject still doesn't the acting, the verb describes the action, and the subject and verb still match in number. Joyce didn't create any new language, but he did create some new literary forms. He developed his characters and plots in ways that others had not used in the past. Your comment still applies -- we do expect certain literary forms when we read -- but I still expect sentences to follow grammar and syntax rules. > Plastic arts on the other hand--and I mean painting in particular > although the same is partially true of sculpture, performance art, > etc.--is a language, a tool we don't all understand. And so when > the result of using that tool looks nonsensical and easy we dismiss > it as something anyone, even a two-year-old could create. Knowing > language as intimately as we do both enables us and makes us > critical when someone seems to use it poorly and reveals our own > inabilities and leaves us reverential when we realize we can't use > it anywhere near as well as a literary artist. I have often heard the comment that modern metal music has nothing but a bunch of guys screaming and playing random guitar chords. It might even seem like these metal artists do not have any real talent -- until you hear a band of high-school kids trying to cover a hit metal song. You then realize that even though you find metal music obnoxious, that the group had quite a lot of talent. Recently I have come across the term "unconscious incompetence." This describes a state where we don't know enough about a subject to even understand that we don't know anything about the subject. As you said, because we all use language (and I'll add that we all have read stories), many people assume that one can simply string together some words to create a new story. Usually after our first few attempts at writing, we move into "conscious incompetence" -- we recognize that we do not have the skills needed to write. A few people persevere, and keep working at writing and move into "conscious competence" -- they have developed the skills needed and can consciously produce good writing. When looking at some works of art, or even some written works, I have to admit my conscious incompetence -- I do not have the skills or training to fully appreciate the works. But competence in art or language does not necessarily guarantee acceptance of a work. I consider myself fairly well versed in literature, and yet all literature does not create a pleasing result. For example, you can find many rave reviews about E. Annie Proulx. I cannot stand her works. She writes fine, grammatical sentences, but her work as a whole leaves me asking, "So what?" Why did you want me to invest the time to read a 300-page character sketch that goes absolutely nowhere? Perhaps I should look at the 300-page character sketch as something "strange and unusual" and allow it to speak to me in its own terms. As some list members can attest to, I want to give every work its chance in the sun. I made several of my friends sit through just about the worst movie ever made because I knew that by seeing the whole, we could make sense out of the disorganized and unsatisfying scenes. Instead, we ended up having to sit through an entirely unsatisfying movie. I don't think any amount of openness will change my opinion in this case. No matter what art form you choose, the majority of experimental art will fail. Occasionally, a new form of art does gain popularity, but it must rise from the ashes of the thousands of works that crashed and burned all around it. We certainly should attempt to keep an open mind so we can accept and praise the new works of genius -- but we also have to accept that a quest for the next new thing will probably leave us with a lot of bad experiences. Scott Parkin has said that he has yet to read any truly satisfying Mormon novels. We could accuse Scott of having a closed mind -- of not accepting the strange and unusual. But I also have to invoke William Morris who said that Mormon literature cannot just abandon the traditions of Western literature. We have steeped in the forms of Western literature all our lives -- a Mormon literature might eventually evolve into something entirely unique, but for the time being, we have to judge our literature with the tools we have at hand. And using those tools, Mormon literature has not yet produced a _War and Peace_, a _Hamlet_, a _Lolita_, or even a _Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance_. I don't believe that Scott has closed his mind, but rather, he has judged Mormon literature against a background of works that provide that substantial satisfaction that lasts long beyond the actual reading of the text -- that feature of literature that Kenneth Burke calls "equipment for living." I certainly accept the possibility that I should keep my mind open when I encounter something that seems to buck against the accepted forms of contemporary literature, but we also have to accept the fact that forms exist because they work. And if we want to have our own people reading the literature we create, then we probably should stick to those forms. -- Terry L Jeffress | However great a man's natural talent may | be, the art of writing cannot be learned | all at once. -- Jean Jacques Rousseau - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cathy Wilson" Subject: Re: [AML] Introductions: Paul Bishop Date: 06 Aug 2001 19:26:48 -0600 (Okay, I just have to ask - have you ever been - a bishop? And did they call you Bishop Bishop?) ;) I knew a Bishop Bishop once. I also met a pair of missionaries, Christopher Meek and Frederick Humble. You know, Elder Humble and Elder Meek (a true story). Cathy (Gileadi) Wilson Editing Etc. 1400 West 2060 North Helper UT 84526 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: [AML] Fw: MN News Briefs: Kent Larsen Date: 06 Aug 2001 19:15:39 -0400 (Edited) News Briefs Irish Reviewer Likes BYU International Folk Dancers DUBLIN, IRELAND -- A reviewer for Dublin's Irish Times loved the BYU International Folk Dance Ensemble's performance, saying that "the standing ovation for the International Folk Dance Ensemble on Monday was entirely justified by the stunning second half." Reviewer Carolyn Swift was impressed by the superb costumes and dances and the second-half Croatian, Hungarian and Ukranian dances. However, she believes that many people left after the "overlong, repetitive and very noisy first half," which included a Celtic section with a Welsh clog dance, a Scottish lilt, the Irish six-hand reel and the Keltatak, which Swift says was "unwisely likened to Riverdance." Overall, she says, the Celtic section seemed a paraody, "bringing back memories of Maureen Potter's send-ups of Irish dancing." Reviews: International Folk Dance Ensemble Dublin Ireland Irish Times 1Aug01 A3 http://www.ireland.com:80/newspaper/features/2001/0801/fea4.htm By Carolyn Swift Controversial Video Editing Clubs Appear in Northern Utah LAYTON, UTAH -- The controversial video-editing clubs that have become popular in Utah county, Utah, allowing the predominantly-LDS audience to see R an PG-13 movies without the objectionable scenes, have now moved to northern Utah thanks to the efforts of BYU student Brian Schenk. With his brother, Braxton, Schenk opened Clean Cut Videos and more than 70 families joined the group in its first week. Schenk says he was inspired by Ray Lines, owner of the three CleanFlicks video clubs in Utah County. The Schenks hope to offer more titles soon -- they don't yet have as many as Lines does -- and want to expand, opening more stores along the Wasatch Front. The businesses say they can offer edited movies because they own the videos and aren't technically renting them to customers, "We as a club own the titles and can edit them," Brian Schenk said. Without that technicality, editing the movies would violate the copyright law. But Salt Lake copyright attorney Randall B. Bateman says the law is ambiguous on the issue, "Technically you can do whatever you want to your own copies," he said. But when a group owns the videos, its not as clear. He says a court case will be needed to interpret the law, but that he doesn't know of a video club that has been brought to court for the practice. Video club offers edited entertainment Ogden UT Standard-Examiner 3Aug01 B2 http://www.standard.net/standard/news/news_story.html?sid=000108022321168652 43+cat=news+template=news1.html By Loretta Park: Standard-Examiner Davis Bureau Layton shop caters to those who seek R-, or PG-13-free shows >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "helena.chester" Subject: [AML] BATCHELOR et al., _Voices in Harmony_ (Query) Date: 07 Aug 2001 17:17:42 +1000 I'm contemplating ordering the book, "Voices in Harmony-Contemporary Women Celebrate Plural Marriage Authors and Compilers: Mary Batchelor * Marianne Watson * Anne Wilde. NEW BOOK released December 1, 2000-- http://www.principlevoices.com/ Has anyone on the list read it, and can give some personal thoughts on it. Helena Chester - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paris ANDERSON" Subject: Re: [AML] Granite Publishing Query Date: 07 Aug 2001 07:54:24 -0600 I'm surprised this is the first I've heard ask about Granite on this list. The Head man's name is Jeff Lambson. He is the one great universal cool. I would trust him long before I would trust anyone I've ever met in this business. They are just normal publishers--not vanity or anything. Their focus is regional (LDS) and anything related or that shows promise. I would have a contract with them if they didn't have this one, single, solitary flaw. For some reason they aren't able to see the brilliance of my work (which really, really is truely wonderful and enlightening. The word magnificent come to mind.) No, but honestly--that's the place to be if you can work it out. I'll forward your letter to them. By the way . . . Granite is located it Orem, not Salt Lake. Paris Anderson - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Fw: MN New AP Stylebook Still Recommends "MormonChurch": Date: 07 Aug 2001 09:06:49 -0600 Steve wrote: > on 8/3/01 12:49 PM, Barbara Hume at barbara@techvoice.com wrote: > > > Well, we've been called worse things than Mormons. > > True. > > >The name "Church of > > Jesus Christ" doesn't work for me because it sounds like a Protestant > > denomination. > > But, since it came from his own lips as the proper name of the church.... > > :-) Let me wax technical here. He said the church must be after his name. The first name of the Church was the Church of Christ, as a matter of fact, without the name of Jesus inserted. Then, in Kirtland, it became the Church of the Latter-day Saints, without the Jesus OR Christ in the name at all. But let it be understood that the above suggestion of the "Church of Jesus Christ" isn't an official name change, only a suggestion to media folks as a way to refer to the church once they've identified it as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the first instance. Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Granite Publishing Query Date: 07 Aug 2001 09:15:50 -0600 Granite is not a vanity press. Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: [AML] Sanitized Art (was: Mission of Mormon Letters?) Date: 07 Aug 2001 09:21:22 -0600 "D. Michael Martindale" wrote: > But to introduce a third alternative--sanitizing--is something to be > shunned. Normally, I agree with D. Mike on these subjects. But I think of a "sanitized" cop show (NYPD Blue) that is edgy but does not sacrifice its power, etc. Excluding the episodes where you see partial nudity, the show still has off-stage violence (the cops show up afterthe murder has been committed). They still have swear words, though they've invented new swear words that carry the same meaning but aren't offensive. It CAN be done, in other words. Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BroHam000@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Fw: MN New AP Stylebook Still Recommends "Mormon Church": Date: 07 Aug 2001 11:23:43 EDT I think that what would be confusing to others doesn't really matter; The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is The Church of Jesus Christ. If someone is confused about it, he can take his confusion to the Source, and get it cleared up! Linda Hyde Rosemark, TN - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Welcome to My Living Room Date: 07 Aug 2001 09:34:40 -0600 At 09:47 AM 8/6/01 -0700, you wrote: >So, sorry if any of the messages I've sent have come across have been >offensive or seemed as if I were offended - I'm pretty thick skinned. And >thank you all for letting me sit with you in my living room! Well, it's kind of you to host us. Where are the refreshments? (The is what I use to try to keep people from taking offense. But since I tend to be forcefully opinionated, it doesn't always work! barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Johnson Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 07 Aug 2001 10:57:40 -0400 D. Michael Martindale wrote: > > THIS JUST DOESN'T HAPPEN -*-*-*--VERY OFTEN-*-*-*--IN REAL LIFE! If there is one thing I have learned in my 67 years it is "THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO GENERALIZATION THAT DOESN'T HAVE A 'QUALIFYING' EXCEPTION" ;-> (Richard Johnson) > -- > D. Michael Martindale > dmichael@wwno.com > - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Grant Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 07 Aug 2001 10:03:59 -0600 D. Michael Martindale writes: [...] >Ever since making the above comment, everyone's been writing >in about exceptions to my rule. So I guess I have to qualify >it. In the real world of billions of people, all sorts of >bizarre things can and do happen. Apparently, even within the small world of (a few hundred?) AML-List subscribers things happen that you insist don't happen. In the same message in which you said that Weylandesque conversions don't happen in real life, you praised the Mad Max films. Do you think the things happening in the Mad Max movies are more plausible than those happening in Weyland's books? [...] >But for a boy in a romance situation to foist missionary >lessons on a brand new potential girlfriend days after meeting >her? Who are these weird people? I wouldn't have been so >crass in my youth. Talk about pushy! > >But that's precisely what happened over and over again in a >collection of Jack Weyland short stories I read a few months >ago. I've looked around a little bit, but haven't been able to figure out what collection you could be referring to. Do you remember its title? Chris Grant grant@math.byu.edu - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Morris Subject: [AML] Mormo-American Culture (was: Utah Mormon Culture) Date: 07 Aug 2001 09:36:13 -0700 (PDT) --- Terry L Jeffress wrote: > > I think that, at least in the United States, that we > share a much > larger culture of which our Mormonness only > comprises a small > portion. In other words, I beleive that Americans > in general have > much more in common as a whole, even when you > discount religion. > Or at least we do well at passing as 'American.' And by using that particular verb, I don't mean to diminish the experience of some African-Americans for whom passing was a very real, fraught, dangerous, practice. I don't doubt that we have much in common with other Americans, but I'm not sure how small of a portion our Mormonness is. For many folks, educated or not, urban or rural, religious or not, Mormons are strange cultists. In my experience, geeks, urban professionals, rednecks, and volvo liberals don't define themselves by their beliefs as strongly as Mormons do. I'm oversimplifying, but, it seems to me a lot of folks define themselves by personal interests and pursuits rather than by doctrines and religious community. Or perhaps this is something more particular to California. After all, the great majority of Californians are from elsewhere. They are transplants and so lack that strong identifications with a particular community. Here it is more acceptable to choose--beliefs, desires, sympathies. So I guess I'm not disputing what Terry writes. I'm qualifying his statement so that I can lead in to my real point: I think that part of the amazing yet weird challenge of Mormon literature is that we're a minority, religious-basaed culture that is fairly well-integrated in to the mainstream culture. Mormons are exotic but not really. I'm not sure what the implications of this obersvation are, but one is that Mormon writers are in a great position to critique (and riff off of) American culture because we're both outside and inside. Certainly other minority cultures have a similar vantage point. However, I suspect that our vantage point(s)are unique in some way or another. ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: Re: [AML] Granite Publishing Query Date: 07 Aug 2001 10:38:19 -0600 On Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 10:34:28PM -0700, Jeff Needle wrote: > Does anyone know if Granite Publishing in Salt Lake City is a vanity > publisher, or are they more like Deseret Book, publishing works for the > Church? >From the AML-List List of Publishers Granite Publishing and Distribution L.L.C. 868 N 1430 West Orem, UT 84057 phone: (801) 229-9023 phone: (800) 574-5779 fax: (801) 229-1924 Owner: David Ingram, Ron Garner, and Jeff Lambson Editor: John Jones email: graitepd@aol.com Jeff Lambson serves on the LDS Booksellers Association board. The ISBNs they use come from small blocks, so they probably do more distribution than actual publishing. (You can tell a lot from the ISBN. For example the ISBNs used by Deseret Book and Covenant come in blocks of 1000. R. R. Bowker, the issuing agency, only grants blocks of 1000 to publishers that have demonstrated some longevity and verifiable publishing history. If you get really big, then you can get a block of 10,000.) -- Terry L Jeffress | It is a mistake to think that books have | come to stay. The human race did without | them for thousands of years and may | decide to do without them again. | -- E. M. Forster - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: Re: [AML] Editing Literature Date: 07 Aug 2001 11:52:57 -0600 On Sun, Aug 05, 2001 at 09:59:40PM -0600, John Williams wrote: > I'm confused about what you mean by "original creation." Could you > please clarify? . . . Again, my point: In the same way that people > are allowed (or at least not frowned upon) to "edit" recipes > according to their personal tastes and sensitivities, so should they > be allowed to edit their own movies/literature according to their > own tastes and sensitivities. That's it. The creator of a work has the right to determine who he will allow to make copies of his creation. Nothing stops someone from buying a movie and then modifying that film to fit the buyer's personal tastes. But the buyer cannot legally sell modified copies of a work without permission from the copyright holder. The editing services started to get in trouble becasue at first they were selling edited copies of the tapes. You could walk in the store and buy a pre-edited copy of a movie. This violated copyright law, because the editing service had modified a work without permission of the copyright holder. Now, the end user must purchase the work first and then engage the editing service to make changes to the tape for personal use. Although the end result seems the same, the law sees these cases differently. Another example. Say I buy a copy of Greg Olsen's "O, Jerusalem," but I dedide to hire someone to paint an image of New York City over Jerusalem. I can freely display this modified work, "O, Big Apple" or "Christ in New Jersery," in my home, but I cannot turn around and sell copies of this derivative work. On the other hand, if you somehow get Greg to sell you the original of "O, Jerusalom," then you would have the right to make whatever modifications you want to the work and to sell copies of those modifications. For example, when you see prints of an artist's work, you often see "Used by permission of the Houston Gallery of Art" and not "Use by permission of the artist." The owner of the original artwork has the right to determin how other can use representational images of that art. (Although these days when you buy an original from a gallery, you often have to sign a release stating that you have not purchased the copyright to that work -- thus the gallery can continue to make and sell prints, even though you might own the original.) Your food example actually doesn't fit well with these others because under U.S. Copyright law, you cannot copyright a list of ingredients. You can copyright the written procedure for combining those ingredients, but nothing stops you from copying a list of ingredients from an existing recipe, modifying that list to fit your own tastes, and publishing that list with a newly written procedure for combining those ingredients. You also have the right to reverse engineer a product and make a duplicate. You just cannot use the same name if you decide to market your product. For example, I could hire a labratory to analyze a sample of Coca-Cola, take the reverse-engineered formula, and develop a soda with the exact same ingredients as Coke. I can even mass produce and sell my immitation Coke as long as I do not try to sell my product as original Coka-Cola. Look at all the immitation perfumes on the market. In the case of immitation perfumes, the manufacturer claims you probably cannot tell the difference between its $5/bottle immitation and the $145/bottle original -- because no chemical difference exists. I don't think I really had a great dissagreement with anything John said. Maintly I wanted to point out that the movie industry looks at a sale as a sale and will use your money to make more of the same kinds of movies, especially since the movie industry has no way to know that you objected to some portion of its works. So go ahead, edit your tapes, paint on your prints, purge pepper from your pallate. I'll even come over for dinner, but I don't think I'll stay for the movie. -- Terry L Jeffress | If you are out to describe the truth, | leave elegance to the tailor. | -- Albert Einstein - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: RE: [AML] Fw: MN New AP Stylebook Still Recommends Date: 07 Aug 2001 15:25:22 -0700 The full name on first reference followed by the generic "Church of Jesus = Christ" is about as useful as saying "M&M" on first reference and then = "candy" on subsequent references--and it reflects about the same level of = institutional ego. In the missionary memoir I'm writing, I'm trying to = avoid the use of the term "Mormon Church," but I am using "LDS Church." = I'm not sure how often I just say "the church," but when I do I'm still = conditioned to capitalize "Church" from my days as an Ensign editor. Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Mission of Mormon Letters? Date: 07 Aug 2001 15:59:39 -0600 At 09:36 PM 8/3/01 -0600, you wrote: >I want to see more stories that are edgy, literary, and faithful. I'd like to see some writers' definitions of "edgy." So far, most writings I've looked into that were described as "edgy" were not things that I liked. Perhaps it's because they disturb my comfort level, but I think it's because they are often mean-spirited and depressing. I also wonder what you mean by more stories that are "literary"--do you mean stories with a higher quality of writing, or are you positioning literary fiction as more valuable in this venue than genre fiction? barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Craig Huls Subject: Re: [AML] Welcome to My Living Room Date: 07 Aug 2001 17:42:02 -0500 Barbara Hume wrote: > At 09:47 AM 8/6/01 -0700, you wrote: > >So, sorry if any of the messages I've sent have come across have been > >offensive or seemed as if I were offended - I'm pretty thick skinned. And > >thank you all for letting me sit with you in my living room! > > Well, it's kind of you to host us. Where are the refreshments? > > (The is what I use to try to keep people from taking offense. But > since I tend to be forcefully opinionated, it doesn't always work! > > barbara hume > > - As if you are the only one on this list with an opinion! Trying to make us feel bad! I am a shorttimer here but I have decided that I am amongst siblings the way the fur flies at times! It seems that we let it all hang out but we do come back in the spirit of love. Actually we are siblings come to think of it! I enjoy ya'll! Craig Huls - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ethan Skarstedt" Subject: RE: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 07 Aug 2001 17:27:15 -0600 >In the same message in which you said that Weylandesque >conversions don't happen in real life, you praised the Mad Max >films. Do you think the things happening in the Mad Max movies >are more plausible than those happening in Weyland's books? Chris's response to D. is a little unfair. I think it obvious that D. was speaking of the inner-conflicts in the character Mad Max rather than the actual events in the story (whether the actual events were believable or not is another discussion). He was making the point that Jack Weylandesque inner conflicts (which lead to the conversions) were less believable than those in Mad Max. I happen to agree with him. I'm sorry, D. if I stepped on your toes here. To continue with my own response to the thread so far: I think there are two operational mediums being discussed here. Inner conflict and Physical conflict, Man Vs. Self vs. all the other kinds of conflict. In stories where there are no physical conflicts, man against nature, man against man, etc... there remains only inner conflict, man against self; these stories are boring when the single real conflict, man against self, is unbelievable, idealized, whatever you want to call it. They're just not interesting, they're empty. When the inner conflict is well-drawn, however, they can be fascinating. This is not to say that stories with Physical conflict in them can get by with no Inner conflict, these tend to be boring as well; although they can be fun reads, they are usually not filling. =20 My point? A reiteration of the balance idea. A 'good' story usually has both kinds of conflict and both are drawn realistically. =20 Ethan Skarstedt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Needle" Subject: Re: [AML] Granite Publishing Query Date: 07 Aug 2001 14:50:34 -0700 Thank you! I'll look forward to hearing from them. I appreciate the information. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "R.W. Rasband" Subject: [AML] THE GUESS WHO, _The Concert_ Date: 08 Aug 2001 00:47:56 Many PBS television stations are holding pledge drives this time of year, and one show being featured is "The Concert", a show produced by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation featuring the reunion of Canada's biggest ever rock group, The Guess Who. (It is showing on KUED in Salt Lake.) It was filmed in Winnipeg, Manitoba, home town of the band, and includes original LDS rock-and-roller Randy Bachman on lead guitar. I liked their music as a kid, then went on my mission to Winnipeg, where I spent 16 months all told. Never met Randy, but got to know Tim Bachman and his family a little bit (Tim is Randy's brother who played in Bachman-Turner Overdrive. He lived on one of the Winnipeg wards in the North End I was assigned to.) The Guess Who was EVIL HARD ROCK when I was growing up, but now their music seems poignantly innocent compared to what is popular now (they sang about love, not rage, and you can actually discern a melody.) Got all nostalgic from the glimpses of Winnipeg shown before the concert. When Burton Cunmmings shouts "You are smack dab in the middle of the greatest country in the world" my heart swelled up with second-hand patriotism. (According to rumor Cummings left the band in the '70's because of Bachman's clean-living ways, but it appears the two have reconciled.) Highly recommended for grizzled old classic-rock aficianados like me. R.W. Rasband Heber City, UT rrasband@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 07 Aug 2001 22:12:07 -0600 Chris Grant wrote: >In the same message in which you said that Weylandesque >conversions don't happen in real life, you praised the Mad Max >films. Do you think the things happening in the Mad Max movies >are more plausible than those happening in Weyland's books? I think this underscores something that we've talked past during the whole "why Jack Weyland stories bug me" discussion. (FWIW, I think Weyland takes far too much heat on this issue. His stuff is better than I think we give it credit for, especially more recently. No, he's not an author I rush out to read, but I think he gets blamed for a lot of things that he didn't do, either, IMO. Whatever else may be true, he reaches a large and loyal readership, which most of the rest of us don't successfully do.) While I can't speak for Michael, I think the difference between Mad Max and the much maligned Mormon morality tale is the issue of internal consistency and character building. For Michael (and me) the author of Mad Max appears to look more truly into the mind of the POV character at the moment of crisis, showing conflicting emotions and inner questioning and an effort to decide what he should do next. He struggles between what appears to be two rights--or are they two wrongs? It seems like so many of the morality tales just have characters doing what they do for no apparent reason. They don't struggle in their internal monologue. They rarely choose a less than optimal path. They rarely grapple with their desire to do right and their desire to be accepted and acceptable. The sum total of their world seems to be a series of scripture quotes and instant rewards. Now I get equally annoyed with stories that revolve around seemingly pointless internal struggles. Thirty pages of trying to decide between two obviously wrong choices ("Should I boff the rich one or the cute one? I know--I'll boff them both and marry whichever one leaves their spouse first!") Most of us don't face a lot of situations with simple binary solutions with one clearly right and one clearly wrong. I'm in the process of starting a business, and most of the questions I face right now are about balancing conflicting right choices, and the rest of my life is largely the same. Should I spend more time with my family, or more time doing quorum service projects? Should I socialize with my literary friends or my geek friends? Should I take my little girl to play golf (she's been asking for over a month now) even though I don't have a lot of extra cash right now? Many of our little morality tales provide only two choices--a clearly right one and a clearly wrong one. No conflict there. It's not that I want ambiguity, but I do want a good choice to occasionally lead to bad ends, and sometimes the choice is between equally poor options and all the POV can do is choose one and hope for the best. Maybe it's not the quality of the choice POV makes so much as the quality of the choices POV faces that makes the difference in how real the story feels. Scott Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Katrina Duvalois" Subject: RE: [AML] Introductions: Paul Bishop Date: 07 Aug 2001 22:10:38 -0700 Bishop Bishop Elder Humble and Elder Meek These sound like character names in "As the Ward Turns"! Katrina D. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Mission of Mormon Letters? Date: 07 Aug 2001 22:11:56 -0600 Barbara Hume wrote: >I'd like to see some writers' definitions of "edgy." So far, most >writings I've looked into that were described as "edgy" were not >things that I liked. Perhaps it's because they disturb my comfort >level, but I think it's because they are often mean-spirited and >depressing. I think there are many definitions of "edgy," and mine would probably fall somewhere in the realm of depressing for you. I don't like mean-spirited stuff, and I generally don't recommend it to anyone as worthwhile. When one of the author's primary purposes is to show how someone or something is utterly corrupt, I find the story to be uninteresting and often (in the case of Mormon fiction) condescending and smug. When I say edgy I mean something more like Eric Samuelsen's play "Gadianton" (reprinted in this month's _Sunstone_) that takes some chances in questioning how we define our own morality and how we defend our own choices. I mean stuff like J. Scott Bronson's _The Whipping Boy_ that unabashedly creates a Christ figure and has his own parents look deeply at their own desires and motivations. I mean films like Richard Dutcher's _Brigham City_ that raises the issue of one community's faith out of a ridiculous pigeonhole of social agnosticism ("Oh look at those religious people and their silly faith; isn't it cuuuute!") and portrays it as real and powerful and intelligent. The core concepts here aren't edgy by the standards of Mormon doctrine--it's middle of the road stuff. But in the modern market these stories are daring and edgy because they dare to make room for a real god, and allow personal faith to have both personal and general power. But they are edgy in the Mormon market for being overt, yet ordinary (tall and yet short, straight and yet round, thin and yet fat... ;-)). They challenge the assumptions of good people without ridiculing their faith. Where the current Mormon market has had problem with such things is in depicting the spiritually powerful in ordinary situations. The renditions are not spectacular enough, not singular enough. Miracles are made ordinary, the daily fare of the honest in heart. This sits ill with many Mormon readers because it forces them to wonder if the lack of miracles in their own life is the result of some flaw in their own faith or approach. It forces them to decide whether religion is real or just an extended social activity. That stabs directly at the heart of modern Mormon complacency, and is something that I think is edgy, worthwhile, and absolutely faithful. To repeat the quote Thom Duncan often shares, I think edgy Mormon fiction is that which afflicts the comfortable (or at least rouses them from their torpor) and comforts the afflicted (or at least shows that even the deeply flawed have a path within God's plan). I believe that to tell some of these stories it may be necessary to write at levels of explicitness that will shock some Mormon readers. Sometimes violence is needed to fully set the scene. Sexualality is a real and powerful motivator in both our best instincts and our basest desires. In some cases--but certainly not all--I think good people should be exposed to extremes of both good and bad behavior in their correct context in order to illustrate they many ways that human beings can and do interact with their worlds. I'm not talking pornography or slasher violence. I'm talking about direct, frank portrayals of both our best selves and our lesser selves. We've been afraid of having likable but flawed characters because we don't want to look on sin with the least degree of acceptance. I'm not advocating that we accept sin, but rather that we acknowledge sin and temptation as real and powerful parts of the human experience that must be dealt with head-on. To look the beast in the eye is not to concede, and to admit that sin is a part of our lives is not to accept it as good. Not everyone would like the kinds of stories I'm talking about. But I think there are many readers who would be both entertained and uplifted by it. But the key thing--the thing that has been largely missing in the so-called critical press--is that these stories be told with an absolute acceptance of the reality of the restoration and the beneficence of a loving god. That people err proves nothing about whether the Mormon church is true, and I'm not interested in stories that probe that particular question. I want stories that start from a baseline of acceptance (or at least of hope) and work from there. Some would be about success, some about ambivalence, some about failure. But they would all assume the reality of the restoration. >I also wonder what you mean by more stories that are "literary"--do >you mean stories with a higher quality of writing, or are you >positioning literary fiction as more valuable in this venue than >genre fiction? Loaded question. I LIKE it! By literary I mean two things--written with a high degree of stylistic competence, and containing complexities of concept and symbol that lie beneath the foreground plot elements. I say nothing about genre, and in fact have argued that Mormon fiction is itself more related to traditional genre fiction than it is to traditional li-fi (genre seeks to answer questions; li-fi seeks to state questions clearly). Of the twenty-one short stories that I have sold, fifteen were science fiction or fantasy. My appreciation of genre fiction is well documented on this list and is an unabashed part of who I am. But yes, I am talking about "mainstream" stories in general (whatever mainstream means...). Not because I think it's a better type of story, but because I think it poses fewer barriers to entry for the average Mormon reader. Not a comment on quality, but on general accessibility. Scott Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Sanitized Art (was: Mission of Mormon Letters?) Date: 08 Aug 2001 01:33:20 -0600 Thom Duncan wrote: > > "D. Michael Martindale" wrote: > > > But to introduce a third alternative--sanitizing--is something to be > > shunned. > > Normally, I agree with D. Mike on these subjects. But I think of a "sanitized" cop > show (NYPD Blue) that is edgy but does not sacrifice its power, etc. Excluding > the episodes where you see partial nudity, the show still has off-stage violence > (the cops show up afterthe murder has been committed). They still have swear > words, though they've invented new swear words that carry the same meaning but > aren't offensive. > > It CAN be done, in other words. There's sanitizing and there's sanitizing. Removing or avoiding what would have been gratuitous in the first place is not sanitizing; it's doing it right. But sanitizing something that affects the impact of the story to satisfy bean-counting morality is to be shunned, in my opinion. Of course, there is such a thing as being incorrect about how necessary a possibly offensive thing may be. From a practical standpoint, I would go ahead and write whatever it occurs to me to write, ignoring any possible offense I may give to some readers. Then I will go back and reassess just how necessary some of the more offensive elements are (especially after being raked over the coals about them by my writers group, and worse, my wife). Finally, I may be obliged to compromise against my better judgment over certain elements at the behest of a paying editor, and start getting real creative about how to preserve as much of the impact of the original elements as I can while being pressured to sanitize beyond what I believe is good for the story. I wouldn't be surprised if, on some of those occasions, I found out that I didn't need the offensive element after all. But while I'm writing the first draft or two, I leave things wide open. I do not edit myself according to the sensibilities of the hypothesized audience. I write what I think is true, and bean-counting moralists be damned. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: [AML] Aspirations for Mormon Lit (was: Creative Use of Language) Date: 07 Aug 2001 22:11:46 -0600 Terry L Jeffress wrote: >Scott Parkin has said that he has yet to read any truly satisfying >Mormon novels. We could accuse Scott of having a closed mind -- of >not accepting the strange and unusual. We could certainly accuse Scott of that, but I think Scott has shown a perfect willingness to read a very wide variety of stories, and to keep reading despite failing to be impressed with most of what he's read. He wants more, and seeks more or less constantly to find it. Actually, I *have* been impressed by some works of Mormon storytelling. I've already bubbled on about how much I love J. Scott Bronson's unpublished novel, _The Whipping Boy._ I think Orson Scott Card wrote a very successful Mormon story in his book _Lost Boys._ I think Richard Dutcher has done it twice with his Mormon-themed films _God's Army_ and _Brigham City_. I like pretty much every play Eric Samuelsen has written over the past few years. These are all stories that have been unabashed in their presentation of Mormon concepts and ideas without any obfuscation or misdirection. They deal with difficult issues from a completely Mormon mindset and in ways that reach me as an individual reader. It's entirely possible that I read with a closed mind, that I'm not ready to accept the strange or unusual, though I don't think that's correct. In fact, I believe that I have been asking for precisely more of that strangeness, for more of that unusualness, and I'm slightly troubled to find myself used as a strawman for a close-minded approach to Mormon fiction, because that's certainly not how I feel. Yes, I want more, but that doesn't mean that I reject the value or quality of what has been published to date. Many readers have been reached by many stories, and I regularly defend those stories' right to exist. I am a firm believer that Mormon stories can be told that show both our uniqueness and our rightful place in the larger national and international communities. No, by and large I have not been impressed with the total quality of the work I've seen in the Mormon market. Yes, I've gone from assuming that a work will be good to merely hoping that it won't smell too badly. If that makes me a closed-minded reader, then I guess I'm guilty as charged. I do have a healthy set of preconceptions about much of what I read, but I read it anyway, and I usually read it to completion. Like you, I want to make sure before I walk away. I may be the only short story judge in the history of the world to read every word of every story in every short fiction contest I read for. Sadly, I'm rarely surprised. There have been some good books in the Mormon market, but I have seen few (perhaps no) breakout books that have gained the kind of broad literary acceptance that I think we're capable of. Where is our Chiam Potok or John Irving or even our Ayn Rand? We console ourselves that it's because the rest of the world doesn't understand us, but I believe the fault for that lies with ourselves, not the rest of the world. We have subscribed too easily to our own victimhood as a culture and have failed to try as hard as we should have to tell our own stories well. I would love to see more experimental work. I have talked with a friend about writing Mormon versions of some literary classics like _Candide_ and _Don Quixote_ and "A Doll's House" and Kafka's "The Metamorphosis" or _The Trial or Hardy's _The Mayor of Casterbridge._ To me, these are all stories that are 3/4 of the way to being intensely Mormon, and a retelling in overtly Mormon clothes could be both interesting and informative. Yes, they would be derivative, but I think they could also be illustrative of the kinds of works we *could* write if we chose. (I mean, what's more Mormon than being tried and convicted of a crime without every knowing what it is that you've allegedly done wrong? That's part of the daily experience of Mormonism--or at least of my daily experience.) That I don't like a thing, or feel that it is not as good as it could be, does not mean I reject it or have closed myself to it. Like Ted Sturgeon, I believe that most of what's published anywhere is poor--but that some portion is also quite worthwhile. What I want to see is the superlatively good stuff, and I don't think I've seen it yet. I hope so much to see more Mormon stories written at a higher level of complexity and competence that I read for four different Mormon literary contests, and am working to open a new book line so I can help introduce some of the better works that I find. >I don't believe that Scott has closed his >mind, but rather, he has judged Mormon literature against a background >of works that provide that substantial satisfaction that lasts long >beyond the actual reading of the text -- that feature of literature >that Kenneth Burke calls "equipment for living." Maybe I expect too much. I do want to read a book that changes the way I think forever after. I read such books regularly outside the Mormon market, and I find them in many genres. So far, only Richard Dutcher's _Brigham City_ and J. Scott Bronson's _The Whipping Boy_ have really satisfied me as meeting this arbitrary criterion within the Mormon market. The fact that even these two stories exist gives me hope that more can and will exist. Until the, I will keep reading. And I will keep nudging the rest of the writing community to do more and different and better. Scott Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Mission of Mormon Letters? Date: 08 Aug 2001 09:38:51 -0600 Barbara Hume wrote: > At 09:36 PM 8/3/01 -0600, you wrote: > >I want to see more stories that are edgy, literary, and faithful. > > I'd like to see some writers' definitions of "edgy." So far, most writings > I've looked into that were described as "edgy" were not things that I > liked. Perhaps it's because they disturb my comfort level, but I think > it's because they are often mean-spirited and depressing. That's what edgy means: disturbing your comfort level. Artists are like prophets in that regard: They comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable. Which, now that I think of it, pretty much encapsulates what I think an artist (as opposed to an illustrator or artisan) does. (To briefly go back to a previous thread.) Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Williams Subject: RE: [AML] Editing Literature Date: 08 Aug 2001 09:45:44 -0600 Terry Jeffress wrote: >Your food example actually doesn't fit well with these others because >under U.S. Copyright law, you cannot copyright a list of ingredients. Terry, If I understand you correctly, you are saying that my food analogy doesn't "fit well" because movies and literature can be copyrighted but recipes can not. I disagree--with the first part. The question of whether or not the analogy "fits" must depend on what it was applied to in the first place. Our initial discussion had to do with the notion of "artistic integrity" (which, as I'll explain below, has nothing to do with copyrighting). We were talking about Sex in Literature, when Gae Lyn, after watching an edited version of Jerry Macguire, speculated that some of the other members of the list might object to the idea of edited films since external cutting might somehow "defile the sacred realm of authorship and artistic vision." My response to Gae Lyn was that I had no such objections, since there can be no definite, fixed, or objective notion of artistic integrity in the first place. You then responded that editing books, even for one's personal use, seems "vile." Here are your words of July 26th: >To me the artistic integrity argument takes on a very different tone >when you apply the same editing techniques to a book. Say I want my >kids to read _Catcher in the Rye_ but without all those nasty words. >So I take my copy of _Catcher_ to my local book doctor, who for a fee >will use a razor blade to cut out all the objectionable words and >scenes. How vile to treat a book in such a way. And concerning movies you wrote: >When I apply my distaste of book mutilation to the practice of >modifying films for the taste of the reader, I get the same bad taste >in my mouth. Since I didn't see the same difference in "tone," I compared the editing of films/books to editing a recipe. I was trying to draw attention to the fact that no one seems to mind when people edit recipes to fit their own personal tastes, yet when it comes to movies/books we are forced to listen to fervent testimonies from the Committee For The Preservation Of Artistic Integrity. So, in its initial context, the analogy works just fine. Now, for whatever reason, the discussion has shifted and we are talking about issues of legality and copyrights. But let's not confuse the notion of "artistic integrity" with the legal parameters of copyrighted material. The former raises an argument that can be applied to any art form, at any time; the latter raises an argument that can be applied only to work produced within the last 100 years or so (since, as I understand it, a work's copyright can expire, but its "artistic integrity" won't), as well as work produced under our specifically Western idea of "authorship." For example, you write: >Say I buy a copy of Greg Olsen's "O, Jerusalem," but >I dedide to hire someone to paint an image of New York City over >Jerusalem. I can freely display this modified work, "O, Big Apple" or >"Christ in New Jersery," in my home, but I cannot turn around and sell >copies of this derivative work. But the funny thing is, I CAN do the same thing with Leonardo Da Vinci's "Last Supper" AND turn around and sell it, even put it on a T-shirt or a postcard and sell it all over New York City (you've probably seen variations of this yourself). Now, notice that in both examples (Greg Olson and DaVinci) one could argue that I have violated the work's "artistic integrity," but only in the first could one argue that a copyright has been infringed on. Of course, even if DaVinci were alive and well and renewing his copyrights, the notion of "artistic integrity" still has nothing to do with copyrighting. The "aura" of authenticity is not a legal issue--it's an aesthetic one. The "different tone" you speak of has more to do with your gut reaction to the editing of precious books (the "bad taste" in your mouth), that somehow the sacred original-ness of the work has been altered, adulterated, or tainted; that the "artistic vision" has been interrupted, defiled, or whatever. It has nothing to do with the legality of selling the work to someone else. So, to get back to the topic at hand, I will restate my assertion that objections to edited literature or movies on the basis of "artistic integrity" are inherently flawed because there can be no valid, objective, or reliable notion of artistic integrity in the first place. --John Williams - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Grant Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 08 Aug 2001 11:03:09 -0600 Scott Parkin writes: [...] >While I can't speak for Michael, I think the difference >between Mad Max and the much maligned Mormon morality tale is >the issue of internal consistency and character building. >For Michael (and me) the author of Mad Max appears to look >more truly into the mind of the POV character at the moment >of crisis, showing conflicting emotions and inner questioning >and an effort to decide what he should do next. Are you saying that the problem with Weyland's characters is that they have too *much* internal consistency? Or are you saying instead that, for some reason, internal consistency requires people to be conflicted about their decisions? Scott continues: [...] >It seems like so many of the morality tales just have >characters doing what they do for no apparent reason. [...] >They rarely choose a less than optimal path. I've always associated rationality with choosing optimal paths. Are you saying that people who live lives ruled by reason tend to make more suboptimal choices than people who don't? Ethan Skarstedt writes: >Chris's response to D. is a little unfair. I think it >obvious that D. was speaking of the inner-conflicts in the >character Mad Max rather than the actual events in the story >(whether the actual events were believable or not is another >discussion). He was making the point that Jack Weylandesque >inner conflicts (which lead to the conversions) were less >believable than those in Mad Max. There were a lot of responses to D. Michael's original "this just doesn't happen" post pointing out actual events in the lives of the posters or their acquaintances mirroring actual events D. Michael said occurred over and over in Weyland's stories. By not focusing on internal conflicts, did these responses miss the point, also? In any case, let's look at internal conflicts. Mad Max had to face internal conflicts such as: "Do I use this sledge- hammer to administer the coup de grace to this athletic, violent giant I've been battling in a cage match now that his helmet has come off and I can see, to my great surprise, that he apparently has Down's Syndrome?" I assume that the argument that the internal conflicts of Mad Max are of the sort that happen in real life while the internal conflicts of Weyland's characters do not would require this internal conflict to be stated in a more general way: "Do I risk my own physical well-being to show mercy to another?" To be fair to Weyland, any argument that the internal conflicts of Weyland's characters just don't happen in real life should state those conflicts at the same level of generality. Chris Grant grant@math.byu.edu - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Morris Subject: Re: [AML] Mission of Mormon Letters? Date: 08 Aug 2001 12:49:31 -0700 (PDT) --- Barbara Hume wrote: > At 09:36 PM 8/3/01 -0600, you wrote: > >I want to see more stories that are edgy, literary, > and faithful. > > I'd like to see some writers' definitions of "edgy." > So far, most writings > I've looked into that were described as "edgy" were > not things that I > liked. Perhaps it's because they disturb my comfort > level, but I think > it's because they are often mean-spirited and > depressing. > > I also wonder what you mean by more stories that are > "literary"--do you > mean stories with a higher quality of writing, or > are you positioning > literary fiction as more valuable in this venue than > genre fiction? > I can't speak to the intent of the lines above that led to Barbara's response, but I can say that I believe that the AML and the AML-list as a whole has been very good at treating both literary fiction and genre fiction as viable, valuable forms of writing. I'm intrigued, however, by the phrase 'valuable in this venue.' Sliding that phrase into the question brought these thoughts to mind: It depends on what you mean by valuable. I think that both types of writing are valuable to their readers. I think that both types of writing can explore the Mormon experience in fulfilling, aesthetically pleasing ways. However, as a guy who likes to dip his foot in to meta-discussions of literary movements, canon formation, and literary history in general, I have to admit that I place a higher priority on literary literature when I'm trying to use literature as an insight into human experience, cultural dilemmas, and the ways people communicate. This is my own bias. It's certainly not the only correct position to take. In fact, you could argue that genre literature offers a wealth of insights into the culture of a particular time and place---it is an alternative literary history, that perhaps, better reflects the taste and concerns of 'common' (I hate that term---'mainstream'?---no, because some genres aren't exactly mainstream) people rather than the elite (who generally are the consumers of 'high art'). The irritating beauty of Mormon literary history is that it forces me to confront this bias. If I really am interested in it (and I am), I need to account for genre literature. Orson Scott Card's (and many other Mormon authors') decision to write sci-fi especially forces that issue, but so do the Mormon romance authors and so on. What remains to be seen is if Mormon genre literature maintains a strong enough hold on Mormon publishers, critics and authors that it truly gets integrated into the canonical 'field' of Mormon literature---meaning it gets taught, written about, responded to (in fiction), anthologized, reprinted, re-edited and revisited. And by canonical I mean it in a loose sense---at this point, I think that the field is new enough that it's difficult to label any work as truly canonical (maybe _Added Upon_ and _the Giant Joshua_). Of course, since we (members of the AML, partisans of the Mormon-lit community) are who we are, and since the field is still young, our actions have a bit of an influence on what survives and what is forgotten. Or at least that is my hope. ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: [AML] My Vanity Site Date: 08 Aug 2001 14:52:39 -0600 Well, I finally went and put up a vanity site. Which is to say, I did it months ago and I'm just now getting around to telling people about it. I put my poetry and some random essays up for just anyone to read. I'm the only author featured, please forgive me that conceit. If you want to have a go at it, please head over to http://Jacob.Proffitt.com. At least one of the poems there was sent over AML list a while ago (year and a half? More?). I welcome comments and even critique if you feel like sharing. On list or off as your desire and/or our faithful moderator deems appropriate. Jacob Proffitt (Yes, Rachel, I know I still owe you a signed copy of the one you helped critique--feel free to come get it any time :) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Williams Subject: [AML] Medved's Arguments (was: Editing Literature) Date: 08 Aug 2001 13:56:38 -0600 >>>Michael Medved has argued that Hollywood does not act as it >>>would if it were really trying to maximize profit. Has his >>>claim been refuted? >> >>Has anyone substantiated his claim? > >Medved attempts to substantiate his own claim by providing >statistics that seem to indicate a mismatch between Hollywood's >choices and consumer demand. I don't know if anyone's been >able to show that these statistics don't really indicate what >Medved says they do. Chris is right. There is something more sinister than profit margins going on here. Read this brief article from the National Center for Policy Analysis (which I found quite easily by searching "R rated movies" at google.com). The URL is http://www.ncpa.org/pd/social/pd102400e.html: "More than half of the movies released between 1985 and 1996 were rated R. Yet all but one of the 20 highest-grossing movies ever made have been rated G, PG or PG-13. One reason may be that R-rated films -- portrayed as attacks on conventional social and moral values -- attract a disproportionately large share of Hollywood's on-screen and behind-the-camera stars. But in addition, Hollywood executives are using a faulty decision model for evaluating movies as economic prospects. "All movies have uncertain prospects for financial success, and before one is released, a Hollywood executive can only know the probability of outcomes. Since each movie is unique, even these probabilities may be difficult to ascertain. They are what economists call random variables. To make informed decisions, the studio must get the statistical model of these random variables right. This calls for a statistical model that compares whole probability distributions rather than averages or expectations. During the period studied, G, PG and PG-13 movies had a higher yearly success rate than R-rated movies when success is measured on the basis of box-office revenues and returns on production costs. * Only an average 6 percent of R-rated movies earned cumulative box-office revenues in excess of $50 million, compared to 13 percent of G- and PG-rated movies and 10 percent of PG-13 movies. * An average 20 percent of G-rated films, 16 percent of PG-rated films and 12 percent of PG-13-rated films had box-office revenues in excess of three times the production budget, compared to 11 percent of R-rated films. "The number of R-rated successes is high because more of these movies are made (and that may blind decision makers who do not pay attention to the odds), but the success rate of R of R-rated movies is much less than the success rates of G, PG and PG-13 movies. An executive seeking to trim the downside risk and increase the upside possibilities in a studio's film portfolio could do so by shifting production dollars out of R-rated movies into G, PG and PG-13 movies." (Me again here) So, if the above statistics are correct, the idea that producers in Hollywood make every decision based on money is--at the very least--suspect. --John Williams - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jerry Tyner Subject: RE: [AML] Mormon Graphic Novels Date: 08 Aug 2001 14:43:56 -0700 Thom, You really need to find an illustrator for that. It sounds like a great idea. Jerry Tyner -----Original Message----- "Captain Moroni" is what he turned out to be. A true super-hero in the classic sense. Called by an angel to his sacred duty to fight against evil in the world. I wrote the first origin episode but never found an artist to bring it to life. Captain Moroni's secret identity was a BYU student (a la Peter Parker). I seem to recall he had a breastplate that protected him from harm, carried a staff made from Joseph's coffin that had healing powers, and a whole bunch of other cool stuff. All his powers had a basis in known or little-known Mormon history and folk doctrine. Thom Duncan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: Re: [AML] Sex in Literature Date: 08 Aug 2001 15:42:35 -0700 On Wed, 11 Jul 2001 14:11:34 "D. Michael Martindale" , replying to Chris Grant, writes: > Since your quote from Brigham Young contradicts Amelia's > quote from Brigham Young--unless we make the > distinction of real vs. fictional--I have to assume Brigham > Young also made that distinction in his mind. Have to? Why? You don't have a choice in the assumptions you make? Who enforces the need of making that assumption? What would be the penalty for making a different assumption than the one you have to make? Hollow Cluck ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] Moderator Musings on Misinterpretation Date: 08 Aug 2001 21:07:12 -0500 Folks, We have a pretty good discussion going right now, in my opinion. However, over the last several days I've been noticing what looks like--from my perspective (both as a reader and as the moderator)--some misinterpretation of each other's positions, in several current threads on the list. What I'm seeing is not, I think, deliberate, but rather an unwitting failure to understand each other's comments in context--prompted, possibly, by our reactions to one particular statement in a larger post. For example, I think I've seen several cases where a respondent has interpreted specific examples or statements from another List member's post in a way that seemed to me directly opposite to what the first author intended. In other cases, I've seen application of someone's original comments to a different area of thought. I've seen what I thought were humorous comments taken seriously. And in several instances, I seem to detect a note of exasperation as ongoing participants in a discussion keep on talking past each other, apparently unable to agree as to what the actual topic of conversation is. Please make no mistake: AML-List is supposed to be a place for a good, vigorous discussion, where we're all allowed to challenge each other's ideas and present our own alternative views. And it's perfectly okay to shift topics in midstream--to use someone else's comments as a springboard to another, different point you wanted to make. But all of this can be done more effectively if we can avoid making each other feel frustrated that our points are being (as we see it) misunderstood or misinterpreted. So, some suggestions to keep the conversation going smoothly: * If possible, avoid taking offense at someone else's response to your words. If you feel that your original point was misunderstood, explain what it was you really meant to say (keeping in mind that if someone misunderstood it, this probably means that the thought wasn't as crystal clear in its original expression as you had hoped). * When responding to someone else's comments, be as careful as you can in drawing conclusions or making assertions about what the other person is saying--especially if you're about to disagree with those views. It's often useful to include an explicit disclaimer about any intent to interpret the other person's views: "What you said made me think about ___, which may be different from what you had in mind, but..." * Keep in mind that when our own "hot buttons" are pressed, it's easy to respond to the internal echoes of prior discussions and experiences, as opposed to what someone on the List is actually saying right now. As much as possible, try to recognize and acknowledge when this happens--e.g., "I know no one on this list is saying ___, so please understand that this isn't intended as a response to ___'s post. It's just that ___'s post made me think about some frustrating conversations I've had in the past, when..." * If you find yourself thinking uncharitable thoughts about the intelligence or understanding of the person to whom you are responding, consider *very strongly* the possibility that you are misunderstanding what he/she is saying. * As much as possible, focus your comments on your own thoughts, not your interpretation of someone else's. * Feel free to ask for (respectful!) clarifications of what the other person said. * Never get into an argument with someone else about what that person meant to say. Generally speaking, avoid getting into an argument about what someone else actually said. * If you and someone else seem to be going around and around on a particular topic, take a good, long look at it and see if perhaps the two (or more) of you aren't actually trying to make different (not necessarily mutually exclusive) points on different topics. * If you find yourself feeling that you've said the same thing over and over, consider simply letting it drop. I sometimes think that these discussions drag on and on simply because each time one person says something, the other person feels that he/she must say something in reply--even if everything has already been said. Well, I'll stop now, and let the conversation resume... Jonathan Langford AML-List Moderator - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Preston" Subject: [AML] Re: [AML-Mag] Medved's Arguments Date: 08 Aug 2001 22:07:08 -0500 >>>>Michael Medved has argued that Hollywood does not act as it >>>>would if it were really trying to maximize profit. Has his >>>>claim been refuted? >>> >>>Has anyone substantiated his claim? Yes, this is substantiated. The claim is beyond substantiation. It has been accepted by some studio heads and acted upon. Sen. Joe Lieberman actually did win a significant battle. He built up enough pressure on the entertainment industry that the movie theater chains adopted new guidelines for preventing under-age/non-accompanied attendance at R-rated films. And revenues dropped significantly. And, already this year at there are at least a dozen films which have been edited to get a PG-13 rating instead of an R. Here's the article: Rating Enforcement Changes Hollywood's Picture By: Sharon Waxman Source: Washington Post URL: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A99794-2001May30.html [Preston Hunter] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: RE: [AML] Medved's Arguments Date: 08 Aug 2001 21:49:33 -0600 ---Original Message From: John Williams > Chris is right. There is something more sinister than profit > margins going on > here. Read this brief article from the National Center for > Policy Analysis > (which I found quite easily by searching "R rated movies" at > google.com). The > URL is > > http://www.ncpa.org/pd/social/pd102400e.html: I'm not going to take this point by point so I snipped a bunch. And I'm going to take this from something of an odd perspective. The thing is, I sort of agree with the premise that the artists in Hollywood tend to depict things out of proportion to reality and tend to give their own lives more validity than they truly have in the "real" world. How else do you explain that *every* sympathetic fictional Hollywood U.S. President is a liberal? Or that a successful professional can light up a joint in the middle of a session with no other affect on the character (seriously, a 50 plus year old professional woman tokes up like it's no big deal and she's not spacey or furtive or any other indication of what that would mean for the character? C'mon.)? It bugs me. That said, I hate this kind of analysis because there is just no way to gather the numbers needed to make such a judgment. Movie studios don't release the data you would need in order to figure out if a movie was profitable or not. They don't release that information to the people who *make* the movies, let alone to the public. In order to tell if a film is profitable, you have to look at costs (an unknown) vs. revenues (also an unknown despite what you might think). For costs, we don't have access to the figures for how much a movie costs to make. Salaries are typically secret (despite what you think you know about big-name star salaries), production costs aren't reported, marketing costs are estimates at best. Sometimes, a studio will release a film's *budget* as a part of their marketing (a $100 million film!). Sometimes producers and stars will discuss the budget pressures on the set. But the actual costs at the end of the day are not known, even by the director or producer (which is why they insist on taking residuals on the *gross receipts* instead of a manipulable net). How much executive oversight from the overall studio budget can be charged to an individual film? How much of the studio maintenance? Revenues are similarly obscured due to the huge variety of ways to make money on a film. We can tell initial box-office because movie theaters have to report those numbers. But we don't know video, DVD, foreign sales, or other derivatives. From licensing books and games to merchandising, there are an awful lot of sources of revenues that we will never know about because those numbers aren't released. Some movies release direct to video, so I have to assume that it isn't an insignificant sum. We can tell if certain publicly held studios make a profit from quarter to quarter (assuming they follow Generally Accepted Accounting Principles). We can tell what they let us know, like production *budgets*. But you can't tell if the non-audited numbers they give us are true. And we can't ever know the numbers that really matter--gross revenues vs. gross costs on a per movie basis. Since Hollywood keeps making money (they're still in business after all) and since they continue to be able to afford to pay individual actors upwards of $20 million per movie I would guess that rated R movies are profitable enough to keep the studios going. The very fact that the majority of rated G movies are produced by a single studio and that studio doesn't dominate the overall movie market shows me that rated G movies are *not* the best way for *every* movie studio to make money. Obviously, rated G is working out pretty well for Disney. But how well are they doing for anyone else? What happened to Don Bluth? If rated G really rocks like these people claim, why isn't Don Bluth a household name? Titan AE (the last movie I know about from Don Bluth) is an awesome movie. But my understanding is that it lost money (again, who knows? But supposedly, Don Bluth has said he lost money, though I can't remember where I read that--supposedly he'd know). It seems to me that it isn't rated G movies that make money, it's Disney. And even Disney is busy trying to branch out into R-rated movies (through subsidiaries). I have to ask myself why Disney wants to branch out into R-rated movies instead of pumping out another Pocahontas? Are you prepared to say that it is because Disney executives are evil? Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Robert Woolley Subject: [AML] Re: [AML-Mag] Medved's Arguments Date: 08 Aug 2001 23:01:29 -0500 > > Chris is right. There is something more sinister than profit margins going on > here. Read this brief article from the National Center for Policy Analysis > (which I found quite easily by searching "R rated movies" at google.com). The > URL is > > http://www.ncpa.org/pd/social/pd102400e.html: > > "More than half of the movies released between 1985 and 1996 were rated R. Yet > all but one of the 20 highest-grossing movies ever made have been rated G, PG > or PG-13. One reason may be that R-rated films -- portrayed as attacks on > conventional social and moral values -- attract a disproportionately large > share of Hollywood's on-screen and behind-the-camera stars. But in addition, > Hollywood executives are using a faulty decision model for evaluating movies > as economic prospects. > > > (Me again here) So, if the above statistics are correct, the idea that > producers in Hollywood make every decision based on money is--at the very > least--suspect. > > --John Williams Hmmm. Speaking of faulty decision models.... The most relevant factor for deciding what kind of movies to make is not even mentioned in the piece you sent. It claims that the studio would make more money by shifting production dollars from R to G/PG movies. It is impossible to determine that unless you know more about the mean return. I would guess that a huge percentage of R-rated movies are very cheap, raunchy stuff (with much going straight to video), meant for teenagers. The "Porky's" genre. I would also guess that those have a very predictable percentage return. Few of them are blockbusters, but they're probably safe investments, as movies go. Conversely, you can spend $200 million (or whatever it was) and get a "Waterworld." It seems unjustified to assume that movie studio executives knowingly conspire to sacrifice their own personal incomes (and that *all* the big ones are doing this) just so they can corrupt the world. [Robert Woolley] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Moderator Musings on Misinterpretation Date: 08 Aug 2001 22:55:27 -0600 Jonathan Langford wrote: > * If you find yourself thinking uncharitable thoughts about the intelligence > or understanding of the person to whom you are responding, consider *very > strongly* the possibility that you are misunderstanding what he/she is saying. Why can't we just expect people who are being disagreed with to act like adults and not take personal offense? I agree that communication is a two-way street, but you may be asking the impossible here: for us to second-guess the motive of another person and to assume, in every case, that we are the one in the wrong. It just may be that the other person actually IS an idiot and deserves to be told so. [MOD: Not, however, on this list...] Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 08 Aug 2001 23:51:27 -0600 Chris Grant wrote: >Are you saying that the problem with Weyland's characters is >that they have too *much* internal consistency? Or are you >saying instead that, for some reason, internal consistency >requires people to be conflicted about their decisions? Neither. *At the moment of crisis* I think characters should face some fundamental issues--and perhaps even be conflicted by them. How they respond at that moment of crisis should have been established through characterization earlier in the story, and internal consistency comes when a character is true to their own prior characterization. I can't speak for Jack Weyland or how well he does this. I haven't read enough of his stories to comment. But inasmuch as Weyland is seen as the godfather of the teenage Mormon morality tale, he is often used as an icon to indicate that entire subgenre of Mormon lit. By and large, I think the Mormon morality tale subgenre most often associated with Jack Weyland has tended to assume that all Mormons will understand the moral basis of a character's decisions, so the author often fails to justify those decisions within the context of the story. When the character is then faced with a difficult moral choice (a hallmark of the genre) we the readers often have insufficient insight into the workings of this character's mind to truly understand how and why they make their choices. The character flattens and becomes less real. For me, this makes the story less engaging. I didn't say that I thought Mad Max was a moral character (actually, I believe he is a broken moral character in need of fundamental change), or that I though he made good decisions. But we did see a prior context for his character that made his later decisions consistent within the framework that had been established for his character. The character had shape, even when I disagreed with his choices, which made him engaging to me. >Scott continues: > >[...] > >It seems like so many of the morality tales just have > >characters doing what they do for no apparent reason. >[...] > >They rarely choose a less than optimal path. > >I've always associated rationality with choosing optimal paths. >Are you saying that people who live lives ruled by reason tend >to make more suboptimal choices than people who don't? No. I think most choices we face in life are impure, which is to say that there is not always a clearly optimal choice. And even when we identify an optimal choice, we are often either wrong (due to insufficient information) or we have personal, compelling reasons to choose the knowably suboptimal path (the basis of tragedy). Stories about characters choosing between clear opposites are less interesting to me than stories about choosing between relative goods, or relative evils. A character who knowingly chooses a destructive path is either stupid, broken, or misinformed. If he's stupid, the story is uninteresting and I walk away angry at the author. If he's broken or wrong, it's the characterization and internal consistency that determine how engaged I am in his further actions and choices. As I've said before, I find stories with undifferentiated characters and simple conflicts less interesting than those with unique (and imperfect) characters struggling with complex--and sometimes ambiguous--choices. Those are the stories that engage my personal interests and attention. But I wish power, luck, and success to all authors and all readers in finding or creating those works that satisfy their own goals. We need simple stories and complex, children's and YA and adult, happy and ambiguous and sad, violent and tame, emotional and intellectual, and illustrative of both optimal and suboptimal decision-making. All of these can be true, and thus should all be told. I do have my own preferences, however. That's my own choice and I'm content with it for now. Scott Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: Re: [AML] Medved's Arguments Date: 09 Aug 2001 00:58:27 -0600 John Williams: >Chris is right. There is something more sinister than profit margins going on >here. Read this brief article from the National Center for Policy Analysis >(which I found quite easily by searching "R rated movies" at google.com). The >URL is > >http://www.ncpa.org/pd/social/pd102400e.html: I'm not sure how literally we are take the word "sinister" here. (I mean, does he really mean everyone involved is left-handed?) The numbers do show that R-rated films are not as financially successful as films with other ratings. But that doesn't necessarily mean that Hollywood is making them anyway for some evil purpose. For one thing, that assumes "R-rated movies" are evil. I'd be more likely to ascribe it to bad business sense or artistic reasons (the old "some movies couldn't be made with less than an R rating" argument). > >"More than half of the movies released between 1985 and 1996 were rated R. Yet >all but one of the 20 highest-grossing movies ever made have been rated G, PG >or PG-13. One reason may be that R-rated films -- portrayed as attacks on >conventional social and moral values -- attract a disproportionately large >share of Hollywood's on-screen and behind-the-camera stars. Actually, there are now NO R-rated films in the all-time top 20. "Beverly Hills Cop" has been pushed down to #22, thanks to "Shrek" and "Toy Story 2." [stats demonstrating R-rated movies are not nearly as financial successful as other films] > > > So, if the above statistics are correct, the idea that >producers in Hollywood make every decision based on money is--at the very >least--suspect. Exactly. And lately, the tide has been turning. With politicians and movie theaters getting antsier about under-age kids seeing R-rated movies, studios are actually beginning to demand a PG-13-rated product from their filmmakers. It used to be that even with an R rating, they could still expect a huge teen audience. But not anymore. Just this year, films like "Tomcats" and "Freddy Got Fingered" bombed -- and both are exactly the sort of thing teen-age boys used to flock to. Granted, both movies were horrible beyond all reason, but still. I suspect if they'd had a PG-13 rating -- or if they'd come out a year ago, when more kids under 17 could still get into R-rated movies -- they'd have done better. Jennifer Lopez's "Angel Eyes" didn't do nearly as well as expected. After opening weekend, someone polled a bunch of teen-age girls -- a group the studio had pegged as a key demographic for that film. I don't recall the numbers, but a very large percentage of the under-17 girls polled said they WOULD have seen the movie that weekend, if they'd been able to -- i.e., if it hadn't been rated R. (Another chunk, of course, had seen it anyway, and others still planned to try.) The studio estimated another $3 million is would have made over opening weekend alone, if the film had not been rated R. "Soul Survivors," due out Sept. 7, was edited down from it's R rating in order to attract more teens. I could cite other examples. So "Hollywood" (I still hate using that vague term, but I can't think of a better one to mean "people who make movies, from the actors to the directors to the studios") is slowly changing. It's not for the right reasons, of course: No one's insisting on a PG-13 film instead of R out of conscience of anything like that. But even if it's just for money, that's good enough. If it means removing some nudity or violence, and the director is OK with that, then that means the movie probably didn't need it anyway. Which means maybe after a while, they won't even bother trying unless it truly is necessary to their film. Eric D. Snider - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 09 Aug 2001 02:42:31 -0600 Chris Grant wrote: > In the same message in which you said that Weylandesque > conversions don't happen in real life, you praised the Mad Max > films. Do you think the things happening in the Mad Max movies > are more plausible than those happening in Weyland's books? Mad Max falls within the science fiction adventure genre, and the author played by the rules of that genre. Jack Weyland stories are presumably realistic fiction, and I believe he failed to play by those rules. Okay, I'll spell it out clearly---GENERALLY SPEAKING, this doesn't happen. Of course there are exceptions. There are always exceptions. But fiction is obliged to justify exceptions. Jack didn't. I never complained about an isolated Weyland story that presented one of these conversions. It was the relentless pattern of story after story where boy meets girl, and days later girl is taking missionary discussions. The occurrence was never foreshadowed or justified by circumstances or characterization. It just happened, as if this was how things always happen, without comment. So you see, it doesn't matter how many anecdotes everyone shoots at me from real life. I didn't believe it while reading the stories. I still don't. > I've looked around a little bit, but haven't been able to > figure out what collection you could be referring to. Do you > remember its title? _First Day of Forever_, published by Horizon about twenty years ago. I wrote up a review of it for AML-List, but it was so vitriolic, Jonathan bounced it back. I didn't feel like "sanitizing" my review, so I dropped it, and you never saw it. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: [AML] Fw: MN An Evening of Music and Inspirational Words with Michael McLean: Jane Dumont 1Aug01 US DC Wash A2 Date: 09 Aug 2001 06:21:31 -0400 An Evening of Music and Inspirational Words with Michael McLean WASHINGTON, DC -- An Evening of Music and Inspirational Words with Michael McLean recording artist, singer/songwriter, director/producer on Saturday, August 18th at 7:30 p.m. in the new 500-seat theater at Washington, DC Temple Visitors' Center. The concert is free and open to the public Michael McLean is the writer, producer and director of such favorite films as "Mr. Krueger's Christmas" with Jimmy Stewart, and "Nora's Christmas Gift" starring Celeste Holm. Other well-known works, include the videos, "Together Forever," "A Labor of Love," "What Is Real?" and "The Prodigal Son." Coloratura soprano Julie Duerichen will introduce and perform with McLean. She was inspired by Michael McLean's music and formed a longtime friendship which led to her own music career. Prelude music with The Lewis Strings, a professional stringed instrument group, begins at 6:50 p.m. McLean has written music and lyrics for twenty-one albums, including "Stay with Me," "You're Not Alone," "Celebrating the Light," "A New Kind of Love Song," and others. He also wrote and directed films for Bonneville International, where he was active in the creation of the award-winning "Homefront" television commercial series for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. During his seventeen years with Bonneville, Michael McLean received the prestigious Cleo Award and Addy award as well as the Bronze Lion at the Cannes Film Festival. The evenings' theme, "Hold On--The Light Will Come," is from his latest album, "Michael Sings McLean," from Shadow Mountain/Deseret Book. Michael McLean and his wife, Lynn, are parents of three children. They live in Heber City, Utah. Washington, DC Temple Visitors' Center 9900 Stoneybrook Drive, Kensington, MD. 301-587-0144 >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Editing Literature Date: 09 Aug 2001 03:15:04 -0600 I'm completely schizophrenic on this topic. I'd like to grab the output of other creators, especially film, and clean them up the way I want them to be. On the other hand, when I think of someone doing that to my own stuff, I cringe. All those Hollywood types are just out to corrupt us, so they deserve to be edited, right? But when I create, I struggle over every bit of my work, and when I include something, there's a reason for it--I'm not just dinking around. I would resent people chopping pieces out of my work that I believe should be in there. If art is, after all, to afflict the comfortable, letting the comfortable excise the parts that afflict them subverts the whole purpose of art. The parts someone might want to remove from my work may very well be the parts I feel most strongly about leaving in. Therefore, integrity compels me to come down on the side of this issue that is against editing art--even when I may be itchy to employ a pair of scissors on other people's art. If art is communicating one's worldview and values, then we have no business chopping up someone else's expression of his worldview and values. If we disagree with that communication, we should instead create a communication of our own to counteract it, confident that no one else will be chopping up _our_ expression. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: [AML] Fw: MN Internet: Te Karere and Verkivick: Kent Larsen 7Jul01 US NY NYC I4 Date: 09 Aug 2001 06:24:47 -0400 NEW YORK, NEW YORK -- This week we found just a few new websites, mostly link and personal pages. The most interesting page is a replica of a 1940 publication by LDS missionaries evacuated from New Zealand because of World War II. Also new this week is an LDS page on BellaOnline, a community website something like About.com. Pratt's LDS Church page includes a number of links, while a discussion list that Pratt runs provides Family Home Evening information. Also new is an author page by UK-based science fiction author Colin J. Fenwick. Newly Listed Mormon Websites: (edited to contain only those that deal with on-topic for AML) Verkivick http://www.verkivick.org.uk/ Home page of LDS author Colin J. Fenwick. Includes several short stories, one of which is about an LDS missionary. Also includes a news page and some links to LDS and science fiction pages. >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: [AML] Fw: MN LDS Drama Student Loses Profanity Case: Associated Press Date: 09 Aug 2001 06:26:29 -0400 LDS Drama Student Loses Profanity Case SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH -- A court room drama ended Friday when U.S. Distric Judge Tena Campbell ruled to dismiss a lawsuit by University of Utah student, Christina Axson-Flynn, who claimed her rights were violated when she received a drama assignment that included reciting a script that contained profane language. The use of profane language was required only as an academic exercise and the curriculum did not take a position on religion according to the Judge Campbell's ruling. Assistant Utah attorney general, Alain Balmanno, applauded the decision. "The bottom line is you can't have a society in which everything you disagree with is in violation of your constitutional rights," he said. "This is a recognition that we have a system in place where people go to a university in order to learn things with which they may not be familiar or comfortable." Axson-Flynn argued her rights were violated because her religious beliefs, those of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, prohibit the use of certain words. James McConkie, Axson-Flynn's attorney, said he would appeal the ruling. "The law can be changed favorably in the direction of freedom of expression," McConkie said. Yet, U of U attorney, Balmanno, said that an appeal is expected while calling Friday's ruling "very sound and well-crafted." "We have no reason to believe that Judge Campbell will be overturned." Axson-Flynn could not be located for comment late Friday. She dropped out of the drama course after the first semester after she told associate professor, Sandy Shotwell, that she would rather withdraw from the program than use profanity. Shotwell required Axson-Flynn to explain her decision to the class. Axson-Flynn was later told by adjunct professor, Barbara Smith, that she would allow her to omit the offensive language and still get credit for the assignment. As roles arose with offensive language, Axson-Flynn said she omitted the inapporopriate language or found substitutes. But in December, 1998, in a review session with some faculty members, Axson-Flynn was told she could no longer be accomodated. Later, she dropped out of the university. Attorney Steffen Johnson, an expert of First Amendment issues who was brought in to help represent Axson-Flynn, said the case isn't about academic freedom. He argued that his client should not lose her constitutional rights to freedom of speech and religion when she enters the classroom. Sources: Judge tosses suit over profanity Evansville IN Courier & Press (AP) 5Aug01 P2 http://www.courierpress.com/cgi-bin/view.cgi?/200108/05+judge080501_news.htm l+20010805+news By Catherine S. Blake: Associated Press Writer Judge rejects U. theater student's bias lawsuit Deseret News 4Aug01 P2 http://www.deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,295015646,00.html By Maria Titze Deseret News staff writer U. drama student's bias suit rejected Deseret News 4Aug01 P2 http://www.deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,295015555,00.html By Maria Titze Deseret News staff writer See also: Judge Throws Out U of U Anti-Mormon Discrimination Claims http://www.mormonstoday.com/010601/D4CAxson-Flynn01.shtml Is the University of Utah Anti-Mormon? http://www.mormonstoday.com/010216/D2UofUAntiMormon01.shtml National Attention to LDS Actress' Profanity Objections Continues http://www.mormonstoday.com/000213/D2Axson-Flynn01.shtml Mormon Actress' Suit Gets National Attention http://www.mormonstoday.com/000116/D2Axson-Flynn02.shtml Mormon Actress Is Suing U. http://www.mormonstoday.com/000116/D2Axson-Flynn01.shtml >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] Medved's Arguments Date: 09 Aug 2001 06:55:10 -0500 I've heard another theory put forward as to why (specifically male) Hollywood producers prefer to produce R-rated movies (having to do with the audition process) but I'd probably get thrown off the list for explaining it in any detail. --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BISH8@aol.com Subject: [AML] Sanitized Art Date: 09 Aug 2001 10:43:11 EDT D. Michael Martindale makes some interesting points about self-sanitizing a piece of writing before it is formally published. In my own work, I try to complete a first draft without worrying what anyone will think. I've come to the opinion over the years that swear words are simply lazy writing. They may appear as I speed through my first draft of a mainstream novel, but (now) almost always get excised or softened in the rewrite in a quest to create a more inventive level of word usage. So too with scenes of violence. This is an area with which I struggle. Having been a police detective for so long, I can go overboard writing a scene that I want to have shock value. I have learned to rely on my first editor (aka: my wife) and my formal editor (at the publishing house) to reign me in. If they say a scene is too harsh, I trust their judgement enough to go back and rewrite it even if my own sensibilities don't agree. Writing is rewriting and rewriting in a quest to make the final product appear effortless. Self-sanitizing, or self-censoring if you will, is merely a part of this process. Paul Bishop - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Bigelow Subject: [AML] GA Interview for Irreantum Date: 09 Aug 2001 10:14:16 -0600 One of the things I've wanted to do with Irreantum is try to interview a GA about the creative literary arts. My first choice was Pres. Hinckley because he was an English major, he has often advocated good literature, and the AML recently gave him an award for _Standing for Something_. I even went so far as to invite him to do an interview and provide a list of proposed questions, but predictably the Church Public Affairs Dept. wrote back and said, "Because of pressures on his time, President Hinckley is not able to give all of the interviews that he would like to." However, the letter from a high-ranking Public Affairs director did say: "If you feel that there is some other individual who could provide you with answers to the questions you raise, I would be happy to pursue it on your behalf." So my question is, who would be some good Church HQ candidates to try to get an Irreantum interview with about the creative literary arts? I've pasted my cover letter and proposed questions below (if anyone has any suggested refinements to those, I'd be grateful). The first name that comes to mind is Neal Maxwell, because he's written many books, but I'm not sure he's the best fit for these particular questions. Anyway, have a look at my questions and tell me if you know of any Church officials who would be good candidates for answering them because of their backgrounds, connections, etc. (And/or let me know if you have ideas for different questions or approaches). Thanks! Dear President Hinckley: Greetings from the Association for Mormon Letters, the nonprofit organization that recently gave you an award for Standing for Something. The award was graciously accepted by your daughter Virginia, who is a member of our organization. It's been a pleasure to witness your willingness to speak openly with many media outlets. We are writing to see if you would be willing to give our organization an interview about your thoughts, feelings, and observations related to how the creative literary arts (fiction, drama, film, and poetry) intersect with Mormon culture. This interview would appear in our quarterly magazine Irreantum, which is read by most Mormon authors, scholars, and critics as well as by hundreds of avid readers. We've attached a list of questions for you to consider answering. We normally conduct our interviews via e-mail, so we would invite you to type or dictate your responses and e-mail them to us. Our interviewees have enjoyed this less-intrusive, low-pressure mode because it allows them to be more thoughtful in their responses and to rewrite or edit, luxuries that aren't available in face-to-face verbal interviews. If you're willing and able to do this interview, we invite you to respond to the questions and send us your answers. You are certainly welcome to change or skip any questions. Of course, we will seek your approval for any minor editing changes we make to your text, if any. We would also ask your office to provide us with a handful of recent photos we could select from to run with the interview. We look forward to hearing from you soon regarding this interview. If you or your staff have any questions, don't hesitate to ask. Thanks in advance for your consideration. Questions You majored in English, and you have often encouraged members to take time for reading good literature. What have been some specific highlights in your own reading of literature? What authors and works have touched and influenced you the most, and why? You do a lot of writing yourself. What do you enjoy about writing? What do you dislike? When you write in the mode of personal disclosures about your life and feelings, is it difficult to choose what to include and what to leave out? How do you cope with opening yourself to scrutiny? Tell us more about how you develop your writing ideas. Do you jot notes, tap on a computer keyboard, or dictate? Do you use an outline? How many drafts do you typically go through? Do you get much feedback from others to improve your writing? What role does the Spirit play in your actual writing process? What do you think about the relatively recent phenomenon of Mormon historical fiction becoming so popular? What are the good results of that, and what concerns you about it, if anything? If you've read any of those works yourself, what do you think about their teaching value, entertainment value, and quality as literature? More recently, independent Mormon film has shown signs of a new blossoming. What thoughts and hopes might you have about what Mormon filmmakers can accomplish by telling Mormon stories in the medium of film? Have you seen any of the recent works by Richard Dutcher, and if so what has been your personal response? Let's talk about the role of the creative literary arts as it relates to the mission of the Church. As far as "proclaiming the gospel," what do you think about efforts to present Mormon stories to a national audience? Must such attempts be missionary-minded, or is it valid to aim to portray the Mormon experience more accurately and realistically, with hopes that people will grow in appreciation of us as fellow human beings? As far as "perfecting the Saints," what role can literature play in helping us understand and avoid pitfalls in life? With that goal in mind, is it advisable to take morally challenging journeys through literature? As Latter-day Saints, we seem to allow non-Mormon writers, such as Shakespeare, to delve into darker, earthier material than we tolerate from our own authors. We easily embrace stories about faithful people dealing with adversity that comes from outside themselves, such as persecution or illness or the elements, but we get uncomfortable with literature that examines flaws and limitations within the Mormon culture or within Mormon individuals. Is it possible for our writers to depict something bad and have the end result be good? The Ensign used to publish fiction but hasn't for several years. Recently, the other Church magazines have officially stopped publishing fiction as well. Do these policies signal that fiction is somehow not appropriate for Church members, or do the policies signal that plenty of other venues for fiction are available and official Church magazines simply have other purposes? Should today's Latter-day Saints be spending their time on absorbing fiction, drama, and other literary arts? Recently filmmaker Richard Dutcher announced plans for a $10-million independent film about the life of Joseph Smith, to be aimed not only at a Mormon audience but also at a broader national audience. While Dutcher has publicly expressed his faithfulness as a Latter-day Saint, the film will be completely independent of direct Church influence. As an outside observer, what are your thoughts, hopes, and fears related to this high-profile project? The Church recently built a 900-seat theater adjacent to the new Conference Center in downtown Salt Lake City and mounted its first theatrical production, Savior of the World. What are your thoughts and observations related both to the Church's experience with Savior of the World and to future hopes and plans for this theater? What words of encouragement and caution would you express for the benefit of Mormon novelists, storywriters, playwrights, screenwriters, and poets? Are we still looking and hoping for "Miltons and Shakespeares of our own," in the oft-quoted words of Orson F. Whitney? What is your personal vision of the potential for the creative literary arts within Mormon culture and as a way of representing Mormonism to the world? Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Medved's Arguments Date: 09 Aug 2001 10:38:37 -0600 >Chris is right. There is something more sinister than profit margins = going >on=20 >here. Read this brief article from the National Center for Policy = Analysis=20 >(which I found quite easily by searching "R rated movies" at >google.com).= The=20 >URL is Look, I enjoy the wholesome sport of Hollywood bashing as much as the next = man, especially after seeing Pearl Harbor. But there isn't anything = sinister going on. A few quick points while unpacking: 1) There's no such thing as Hollywood. There does not exist some = mysterious entity trying to undermine people's morals by making dirty = movies. Studios mostly don't even generate their own material anymore. = Studios are deal brokers and distribution networks. What you have are a = whole bunch of people trying to make pictures, and hoping to make = profitable ones. Studios don't go "we better release more PG-13 movies = this next year." They take it on a case by case basis. They say: "I like = this story, and I think we can get Mel Gibson for it, and there's a part = for maybe Christine Ricci, and I think Jonathan Demme might be interested = in directing." Disney is sort of any exception; Disney does generate its = own material to a greater degree than other studios tend to. That's the = reason Disney is generally known as 'The Evil Empire.' Far and away the = worst intellectual property thiefs in the industry. And Disney, for the = most part, does not specialize in family fare. Check out Touchstone = releases for content. 2) All films are trying to tell a story. All stories involve conflict and = the best conflicts revolve around sex and violence. And films frequently = revolve around characters in highly volatile situations, where even the = most mild-mannered folks might be tempted to, uh, express themselves = forcibly. Thus more films are rated R than anything else. 3) Ratings do matter--they exist almost exclusively as a marketing tool. = Once a picture gets greenlighted, a battle begins, between the executive = producer, who's usually there to look out for the studio's financial = interests, and the creative team. But, believe it or not, for the most = part, studios would rather not interfere, and would rather let artists = work. And most of the time, studios are trying to tone things down, not = spice them up. =20 4) It almost goes without saying that there is no correlation whatsoever = between the potential negative or positive moral impact of any film and = its rating. =20 Conclusion: The story drives the rating. The story also determines the = success of the picture. So Medved's conclusion is "Hollywood should find = better stories to make movies out of." And that's just a great big d'uh. = There's not a studio exec in the world that would disagree with it. Oh, one p.s. Do you want to see better films? Did you pay to see The = Straight Story? The Iron Giant? The Dish? Searching for Bobby Fischer? = If you didn't, then you're part of the problem. Great films, great family = values, and they all tanked. It may be true that there are movies we = shouldn't go see. It's just as important to emphasize that there are = pictures we SHOULD see. =20 Eric Samuelsen =20 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ethan Skarstedt" Subject: RE: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 09 Aug 2001 10:57:09 -0600 Chris Grant said: >There were a lot of responses to D. Michael's original "this >just doesn't happen" post pointing out actual events in the >lives of the posters or their acquaintances mirroring actual >events D. Michael said occurred over and over in Weyland's >stories. By not focusing on internal conflicts, did these >responses miss the point, also? Actual events and inner conflicts are two different animals, and D. was dealing with them separately, thus the need to refer to a different part of his post when discussing it. =20 "In the same message in which you said that Weylandesque conversions don't happen in real life, you praised the Mad Max films." So no, they did not miss the point of the first part of Michael's "this just doesn't happen" post. They dealt with the relevant part of it. >In any case, let's look at internal conflicts. Mad Max had >to face internal conflicts such as: "Do I use this sledge- >hammer to administer the coup de grace to this athletic, >violent giant I've been battling in a cage match now that >his helmet has come off and I can see, to my great surprise, >that he apparently has Down's Syndrome?" I assume that the >argument that the internal conflicts of Mad Max are of the >sort that happen in real life while the internal conflicts >of Weyland's characters do not would require this internal >conflict to be stated in a more general way: "Do I risk my >own physical well-being to show mercy to another?" To be >fair to Weyland, any argument that the internal conflicts >of Weyland's characters just don't happen in real life >should state those conflicts at the same level of >generality. Building on Scott's message about choices being between two rights more often than not, I say that Mad Max's choice (stated in generic terms by Chris) "Do I risk my own physical well-being to show mercy to another?" is between two right things, self-preservation and mercy. The Jack Weylandesque choices that are being bandied about so much seem to be, stated specifically, "Do I marry this non-member now or do I try and convert them first?", and stated generally, "Do I disobey the prophet and common sense or do I go along with both of them?" The choice is obvious and therefore boring. (these kinds of choices do crop up in real life but that doesn't make them interesting) The generic form of the Mad Max choice also crops up in real life but does not have an immediately obvious answer and carries some consequences for making the right decision, to show mercy, and is therefore interesting, to me anyway. =20 >>It seems like so many of the morality tales just have >>characters doing what they do for no apparent reason. >>[...] >>They rarely choose a less than optimal path. >I've always associated rationality with choosing optimal paths. >Are you saying that people who live lives ruled by reason tend >to make more sub optimal choices than people who don't? I believe that Scott was saying that the choices made by Weylandesque characters always *end up* being the optimal choice whereas, in real life, choices that look optimal up front, (those chosen by people whose lives are ruled by reason/rationality) often turn out, to their grotesque surprise, to be sub-optimal. Dealing with the irony and complications caused by such a choice and exploring why it turned out to be bad while looking so good up front is interesting and has application in readers lives. -Ethan Skarstedt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] My Vanity Site Date: 09 Aug 2001 12:33:15 -0600 At 02:52 PM 8/8/01 -0600, you wrote: >Well, I finally went and put up a vanity site. Which is to say, I did >it months ago and I'm just now getting around to telling people about >it. I put my poetry and some random essays up for just anyone to read. >I'm the only author featured, please forgive me that conceit. If you >want to have a go at it, please head over to http://Jacob.Proffitt.com. > I welcome comments and even critique if you feel >like sharing. Nice, clean interface! Do you plan to add a section called "My Fiction"? barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] Mormon Monasticism Date: 09 Aug 2001 14:28:44 -0500 I was just reading a historical overview of the development of the early Christian Church in the Mediterranean and Europe, when I came across the following passage: "Today, when the ideal of the Christian life is normally taken to be that of active charity towards one's fellow men, it is perhaps hard to grasp the idea; but it should be recognized that monasticism is not just a quirk of Christianity at one stage of its development; most of the world's great religions, some older than Christianity, practice it. Indeed if the reality of prayer as a means of access to God is acknowledged, it is hard to deny that a life dedicated to prayer is justified." (Martin Scott, _Medieval Europe_, p. 12) It may be true, as this author suggests, that monasticism as such is simply not much regarded in modern Western culture. But even looking at other modern religions, it strikes me that Mormonism is (for a combination of social and doctrinal reasons) perhaps the least accommodating to any kind of monastic life: i.e., a deliberately simplified life dedicated to religious devotion (narrowly considered), usually with some degree of separation from general society, often in seclusion or sharing association with member of a (non-familial) community. The closest I can come is in thinking about the life of some older members, stereotypically single sisters, who live close to the temple and dedicate as much of their time as they can to working in the temple. I think this raises some potentially interesting questions from a perspective of Mormon letters: * Is there any kind of accepted "monastic" Mormon lifestyle? Is the example I gave above an accurate one? Are there others? * Is the monastic lifestyle something that has attraction for certain classes of people/types of personalities today? If so, what are those personality types or key characteristics? * What are the key features of a monastic lifestyle? E.g., is it really possible for a married couple to be "monastics"? (I'm reminded of Scott Card's science-fictional Catholic religious order that consisted of married couples who were supposed to remain celibate. A very odd, but fun, fictional invention.) How close does a married mission come to a true "monastic" experience? Can you be monastic in your lifestyle while holding down a job? Is being a community a necessary part of the experience? * What are the options for a committed Mormon with monastic tendencies? What stresses are (or aren't) laid upon such members in a family- and activity-oriented Church? How could these be depicted in a work of literature? Would this be something that would interest very many people? * Can you think of literary examples from Mormon literature of characters you would consider as having monastic tendencies? How were they handled? Jonathan Langford Speaking for myself, not the List jlangfor@pressenter.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "LauraMaery (Gold) Post" Subject: [AML] Fw: MN New AP Stylebook Still Recommends "Mormon Church" Date: 09 Aug 2001 13:01:53 -0700 >There is a church called The Church of Christ so calling our church The >Church of Jesus Christ would be confusing for alot of people. "A lot" would seem to be a serious overstatement of the case. There are a handful of small independent churches that use the name, and another handful of Mormon schismatic groups that use the name. All told, there is a grand total of probably fewer than a couple thousand people belonging to churches that use the name. And those 20-some small churches probably don't even know about -- let alone interact with -- one another. --lmg ----- MEET MY KIDS>> http://www.pagoo.com/signature/pagoo28 WHAT ARE WE WRITING NOW? Do you have your copy of LauraMaery's book " Mormons on the Internet 2000"? Thousands of LDS Internet resources, categorized, reviewed and rated. New sections on Internet safety, teaching helps, resources for senior Saints. Hundreds of Hotlinks, a top-25 list, and a list of honorable mentions. Did you make the list? Order your copy of Mormons on the Internet 2000 at . --------- Have an LDS Internet resource? Post it to the Mormons on the Internet submission site. It's easy! Just find your category, and submit your resource. It'll appear on the site almost immediately! . --------- Visit our Web site at - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jerry Tyner Subject: RE: [AML] Orson Scott Card Date: 09 Aug 2001 13:21:44 -0700 I just recently finished the second novel in the series (Shadow of the Hedgemon (sp)) and I feel this series is going to be as good as the Ender series. I highly recommend the Ender series (Ender's Game, etc.). I didn't know the "Pastwatch" was going to be a trilogy series. The Redemption of Columbus was so good it seemed to stand alone. Any word on what the other novels in that series will be named? Jerry Tyner - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: Re: [AML] Aspirations for Mormon Lit (was: Creative Use of Language) Date: 09 Aug 2001 14:52:57 -0600 On Tue, Aug 07, 2001 at 10:11:46PM -0600, Scott and Marny Parkin wrote: > Terry L Jeffress wrote: > >I don't believe that Scott has closed his mind, but rather, he has > >judged Mormon literature against a background of works that provide > >that substantial satisfaction that lasts long beyond the actual > >reading of the text -- that feature of literature that Kenneth > >Burke calls "equipment for living." > > Maybe I expect too much. I do want to read a book that changes the > way I think forever after. I read such books regularly outside the > Mormon market, and I find them in many genres. So far, only Richard > Dutcher's _Brigham City_ and J. Scott Bronson's _The Whipping Boy_ > have really satisfied me as meeting this arbitrary criterion within > the Mormon market. In literary circles, we often talk about common story traits such as character, plot, and setting, but it seems to me that we too often ignore one of the most powerful aspects of a story -- persistence. To me, _persistence_ describes the ability of a story to stick in our heads, to make us think of aspects of the story for days, weeks, or even years later. Which stories can you bring to mind at any time? Which stories bring themselves to your mind uninvited? Stories that we remember easily and often spring to mind exhibit a high quantity of persistence. A story that exhibits persistence does not necessarily imply a high quality story. For example, most people would agree that pornography has a high persistence, that graphic images or text stick in our minds much more easily than other forms of art and literature. Of course, not all persistent stories offer pornography. We have many cultural stories with high persistence. In the United States we frequently retell the stories of young George Washington and the three little pigs. In LDS culture, we retell the story of Joseph Smith's first vision and the pioneers coming to the Salt Lake valley. As individuals, we have our own set of persistent art. Certain stories keep coming back to us. For me, the stories that keep coming to mind don't always coincide with the stories that I loved at first reading. For example, when I read Nabokov's _Lolita_, I felt awe at the fluid language. If anyone asks me for an example of fine modern literature, I usually point them to Nabokov. But my mind much more readily conjures up scenes from _Gattica_ or Robert van Wagoner's _Dancing Naked_ than from _Lolita_. I have found that over time I tend to reread the stories which have haunted me in one way or another; I reread the stories that persist. Often, I reread a story to try to regain the emotional response I remember from the first reading or to confirm my memory of the text. Did character X really say he hated Y before Y chased X with the hedge trimmer? And sometimes with a rereading, I find that the persistent elements of a story never existed in the original at all. My mind used the story as a basis for its own persistent fiction. We all seem to agree that we want better Mormon literature. For me, none of the Mormon literature I have read so far really has the quality of persistence. I might enjoy reading the story at the time, but the stories don't seem to stick. Nothing from the story pops into my head at random to make me smile or want to share with those nearby. Above, Scott said that he wants to read literature that "changes the way [he] thinks forever," which I think partly includes the quality of persistence. For literature to alter our view of the world, that literature must constantly bring itself to mind so we can compare the literary world with that of our own. We have discussed a desire to see more _edge_ to Mormon literature. We have also talked about art that cheats -- art that does not deserve the emotional response it evokes from the viewer or reader. Could an artist create artificial persistence in a similar way? I think an artist could easily leave the edge and move into the area of shock. Shocking literature would certainly have more persistence, but that does not necessarily produce the effect we want. Maybe one cannot purposely write stories that exhibit persistence -- you just have to have the right combination of elements that resonate with the audience. In looking for the next step in Mormon literature, I agree with Scott that I would like to see more edge. I also want to read stories that have persistence. I don't necessarily want the stories to change the way I think, but I do want them to give me food for thought. -- Terry L Jeffress | Find a subject you care about and which | you in your heart feel others should | care about. It is this genuine caring, | not your games with language, which will | be the most compelling and seductive | element in your style. | -- Kurt Vonnegut - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Mission of Mormon Letters? Date: 09 Aug 2001 15:41:51 -0600 At 10:11 PM 8/7/01 -0600, you wrote: >But yes, I am talking about "mainstream" stories in general (whatever >mainstream means...). Not because I think it's a better type of story, but >because I think it poses fewer barriers to entry for the average Mormon >reader. Not a comment on quality, but on general accessibility. Thanks for your interesting answer to my question. I don't object to literature that challenges my comfort level if it's done for a reason. If a story forces me to face the fact that I am complacent, or prideful, or selfish, that's good. Once I see those flaws and accept the fact that they are there, I can do something about them. I object to a story that seems to be trying to gross me out just for the fun of it--that's sophomoric. I agree (sadly) that literary fiction offers more accessibility. I have read some novels that would make wonderful, meaningful, uplifting films, but since they were marketed as romance fiction few people will ever know about them. Had they been marketed as mainstream or even as women's fiction, things might be different. Barbara R. Hume, Editorial Empress Complete range of writing and editing services High-tech a specialty TechVoice, Inc. (801) 765-4900 barbara@techvoice.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Robert J Woolley Subject: Re: [AML-Mag] RE: [AML] Medved's Arguments Date: 09 Aug 2001 16:56:09 -0500 (CDT) On Wed, 8 Aug 2001, Jacob Proffitt wrote: > lives more validity than they truly have in the "real" world. How else > do you explain that *every* sympathetic fictional Hollywood U.S. > President is a liberal? When you say, with emphasis, *every*, it is just begging for counterexamples. I thought of two within about 10 seconds. Harrison Ford in "Air Force One." Bill Pullman in "Independence Day." Do you think that these characters are not sympathetic? That they are liberal? Or would you like to rethink your use of "*every*"? [Robert J Woolley] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Medved's Arguments Date: 09 Aug 2001 16:06:39 -0600 "Eric D. Snider" wrote: > John Williams: > > >Chris is right. There is something more sinister than profit margins going on > >here. Read this brief article from the National Center for Policy Analysis > >(which I found quite easily by searching "R rated movies" at google.com). The > >URL is > > > >http://www.ncpa.org/pd/social/pd102400e.html: > > I'm not sure how literally we are take the word "sinister" here. (I > mean, does he really mean everyone involved is left-handed?) The > numbers do show that R-rated films are not as financially successful > as films with other ratings. But that doesn't necessarily mean that > Hollywood is making them anyway for some evil purpose. For one thing, > that assumes "R-rated movies" are evil. I'd be more likely to ascribe > it to bad business sense or artistic reasons (the old "some movies > couldn't be made with less than an R rating" argument). Couldn't it be just the fact that R-rated movies tend to be the ones that garner Oscars? Getting an Oscar for a film that may not do well in the box office is like a massive infusion of capital to a producer or a studio for future productions. Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jerry Tyner Subject: RE: [AML] GA Interview for Irreantum Date: 09 Aug 2001 15:22:30 -0700 Boyd K. Packer would be another suggestion. Jerry Tyner - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: Re: [AML] Introductions: Paul Bishop Date: 09 Aug 2001 16:34:20 -0600 On Tue, Aug 07, 2001 at 10:10:38PM -0700, Katrina Duvalois wrote: > Bishop Bishop > Elder Humble and Elder Meek > These sound like character names in "As the Ward Turns"! > Katrina D. Do you mean Hilton, Joni. _As the Ward Turns._ American Fork, Utah: Covenant Communications, 1991. ISBN 1-55503-364-4. $12.95. (Still in print, by the way.) I don't recall these characters in particular, but I do remeber a very funny scene involving a jello salad. -- Terry L Jeffress | I have never met an author who admitted | that people did not buy his book because | it was dull. -- Somerset Maugham - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Williams Subject: RE: [AML] Moderator Musings on Misinterpretation Date: 09 Aug 2001 16:33:55 -0600 >===== Original Message From aml-list@lists.xmission.com ===== >Jonathan Langford wrote: > >> * If you find yourself thinking uncharitable thoughts about the intelligence >> or understanding of the person to whom you are responding, consider *very >> strongly* the possibility that you are misunderstanding what he/she is saying. >Thom wrote: >I agree that communication is a two-way street, but you may be asking the >impossible here: for us to second-guess the motive of another person and to >assume, in every case, that we are the one in the wrong. It just may be that >the >other person actually IS an idiot and deserves to be told so. [MOD: Not, >however, on this list...] I sometimes find myself thinking uncharitable thoughts about my OWN intelligence. But I'm not offended by it :) --John. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: [AML] Email Essays (was: My Vanity Site) Date: 09 Aug 2001 16:41:49 -0600 ---Original Message From: Barbara Hume > > http://Jacob.Proffitt.com. > > I welcome comments and even critique if you feel > > like sharing. > > Nice, clean interface! Do you plan to add a section called > "My Fiction"? Why thank you! I have all the tools to busy it up, but decided I'd rather just let it be simple. Thanks for reinforcing that decision. I'm not sure if I'll add a "My Fiction" section. First, I haven't written any fiction I want my name on, yet. Second, if I *do* write fiction (I have two projects planned at this point with enough detail that it might actually happen), I'll be writing for publication. I wouldn't want to mess up any rights with a generally available web site. I'll cross that bridge if it ever approaches. Essentially, anything on the site now is stuff that I consider unpublishable. There isn't much market for poetry (er, I considered submitting to Irreantum, actually, and Chris is certainly free to see if there is anything there he'd like to use) and the "Thoughts" section is all political and/or economic essay--another non-existent market. We *could* discuss what I consider to be a new literary genre if we wanted. Since many of us publish in it, it might be interesting to see if it qualifies as a genre and what rules might apply. I'm talking about the email essay of course. Almost any post by Scott Parkin, Eric Samuelson or myself (not an exclusionary list, just pointing out some of those who tend to exemplify what I mean) tend to fall into this category. By which, I mean not just an email that is part of a discussion, but emails that try to communicate some thought or idea as completely as possible. They can be in response to another's email, but will typically be 75% (or better) the author's own words (as opposed to quoted text from the message being responded to). I don't know if I'm trying to elevate a trend to genre status or not. Personally, the time spent crafting many of my replies can best be measured in hours. I'll read through a proposed post several times for flow and clarity and sometimes I'll ask Melissa to read over it to make sure I'm making sense before sending it off. I'm hoping that I'm not the only one who does that because many of the list posts are more concise and better thought out than my own and I'd hate to think y'all are able to do that in a first draft. My thought is that anything that takes that kind of effort is a minor form of publishing and might bear some scrutiny to find common conventions and tools. I guess the question is, is it just email or is there something more there? My "Thoughts" section is exclusively composed of these email essays. I think they are structured differently than a typical essay, though, and I'm not quite sure why. I only know that certain things are more effective than others. Maybe a bit of a cross between essay and editorial column. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: RE: [AML] Mormon Monasticism Date: 09 Aug 2001 16:57:36 -0700 Don't most people think of Mormon missionaries as monks among men? Mormon = missionary life is certainly monastic not in social seclusion but in = ascetic simplicity and other ways. And I would even argue that because = missionaries are supposed to be so incredibly focused on baptizing people, = they lead a sort of monastacized social life, if that's possible. They = interact with people, but they must maintain tunnel vision and--ideally--no= t allow any non-missionary impulses to deflect their purpose (romantic, = career interests, hobbies, cultural interests except maybe on P-day). = Maybe that's one of the reasons the Church started a missionary community = service program, to lessen such pressures on missionaries. In the most = extreme cases of a certain kind of missionary zeal, people almost become = commodities rather than individuals, lumps of plastic to be shaped, or = bees--as at the Huntsville, Utah, monastary--to be managed into manmade = hives. In the Mormon missionary worldview, the mission boundaries are the = walls of a monastery and the local citizens are what the missionary-monks = expend their repetitive manual labor upon (doorknocking).=20 Regardless of the amount of talking to people and serving that missionaries= are supposed to do, the whole endeavor has a very monastic feel to it, a = feeling of seclusion and denial from the world. Right now, my missionary = memoir starts with a scene of missionary work on an island within = Australia, and the main character (me) feels a sort of vertigo from being = upon an island within an island. Later I develop that image into Mormonism = as feeling like an island and a mission as feeling like an island within = Mormonism. Maybe I'll have to develop that image into the memoir's title: = An Island within An Island: Memoirs of a Mormon Missionary. Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: Re: [AML] Medved's Arguments Date: 09 Aug 2001 17:16:07 -0600 On Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 09:49:33PM -0600, Jacob Proffitt wrote: > If rated G really rocks like these people claim, why isn't Don Bluth > a household name? Titan AE (the last movie I know about from Don > Bluth) is an awesome movie. But my understanding is that it lost > money (again, who knows? But supposedly, Don Bluth has said he lost > money, though I can't remember where I read that--supposedly he'd > know). Your example does not fit your own criteria. _Titan A.E._ got a PG rating for action violence, mild sensuality, and brief language. -- Terry L Jeffress | I write to find out what I'm talking | about. -- Edward Albee - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: [AML] RE: Medved's Arguments Date: 09 Aug 2001 17:20:12 -0600 ---Original Message From: Robert J Woolley > On Wed, 8 Aug 2001, Jacob Proffitt wrote: > > > lives more validity than they truly have in the "real" world. How > > else do you explain that *every* sympathetic fictional Hollywood U.S. > > President is a liberal? > > When you say, with emphasis, *every*, it is just begging for > counterexamples. I thought of two within about 10 seconds. > Harrison Ford in "Air Force One." Bill Pullman in "Independence Day." > > Do you think that these characters are not sympathetic? That > they are liberal? > > Or would you like to rethink your use of "*every*"? I haven't seen "Air Force One" so I probably shouldn't use "every" in any case. I'll say that with Independence Day, I didn't get a sense of politics at all. Not surprising for a movie that dealt with the aftermath of an alien invasion. Hard to be liberal or conservative when the White House was just blown up. Can't give handouts to homeless *or* corporations when both just became moot points. Movies I *have* seen with U.S. Presidents? "Dave", "Dick", "Wag the Dog", "Contact", and, um, I'm drawing a blank here. Truthfully, my comment was probably just an example of my continuing disgust with "Dave" and Barbara Streisand. Conservative actors find themselves dis-invited to Hollywood social functions (and their careers suffer accordingly) when they express their opinions in public and that irks me. How many of you can name *a* conservative actor, director or producer? I'll bet you can name more who are liberal than conservative by 3 to 1. My real point, though, is just that the stories that movies tell are skewed by the beliefs of those making them--essentially what we've been saying about LDS art. Frankly, come to think of it, my point goes better to show how Hollywood is motivated more my dollars than by ideology. Conservative ideology may be under-represented in the movies that are produced, but not by anywhere near the ratio that would be suggested by their under representation in the Hollywood population. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Williams Subject: RE: [AML] Medved's Arguments Date: 09 Aug 2001 17:21:01 -0600 >John Williams: > >>Chris is right. There is something more sinister than profit margins going on >>here. Eric Snider wrote: >I'm not sure how literally we are take the word "sinister" here. (I >mean, does he really mean everyone involved is left-handed?) No. Geez, no. In fact, if I had known what a tizzy the word "sinister" was going to provoke, I would have withheld. What I should have said was "complicated." And the little blurb on the ratings/profit inconsistencies was included merely to provide an example of Medved's arguments (since we were consistently referring to "Medved's argument" without mentioning anything specific), not to demonstrate the evil nature of everything hollywoodish, and NOT to say that every "R" rated movie is evil. I agree, Hollywood should not be understood as a monolithic entity, by which I mean there are all kinds of people there, motivated by all kinds of things. But my point was (and I think Medved would agree here) the dollar bill is not the bottom line for everyone there, but rather, one of several factors. If everyone in Hollywood were motivated ONLY by money, then the aforementioned statistics on ratings would certainly receive greater attention than they do. --John. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] Moderator Musings on Misinterpretation Date: 09 Aug 2001 18:13:31 -0500 At 09:07 PM 8/8/01, Jonathan Langford the AML-List Moderator wrote: >Folks, > >We have a pretty good discussion going right now, in my opinion. However, >over the last several days I've been noticing what looks like--from my >perspective (both as a reader and as the moderator)--some misinterpretation >of each other's positions, in several current threads on the list. [=85] > >So, some suggestions to keep the conversation going smoothly: > >[snip] And if those don't work, there's always the option of singing a hymn, such= as "Let Us Oft Speak Kind Words" (#232) "School Thy Feelings" (#336) "Should You Feel Inclined to Censure" (#235) ;-) --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 09 Aug 2001 18:02:46 -0500 At 03:42 AM 8/9/01, D. Michael Martindale wrote: >I never complained about an isolated Weyland story that presented one of >these conversions. It was the relentless pattern of story after story >where boy meets girl, and days later girl is taking missionary >discussions. The occurrence was never foreshadowed or justified by >circumstances or characterization. It just happened, as if this was how >things always happen, without comment. Having not read a lot (if any) of this type of fiction, I have a question: does Weyland (or someone else) ever write stories where it's a non-member guy who falls for a Mormon girl and converts, or is it always a male RM continuing his missionary work after returning home? If the latter, does anyone have any ideas why the other version is not used? --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Willson" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Monasticism Date: 09 Aug 2001 19:21:50 -0600 Jonathan Langford wrote =20 It may be true, as this author suggests, that monasticism as such is simp= ly not much regarded in modern Western culture. But even looking at other modern religions, it strikes me that Mormonism is (for a combination of social and doctrinal reasons) perhaps the least accommodating to any kind of monastic life: i.e., a deliberately simplified life dedicated to religious devotion (narrowly considered), usually with some degree of separation from general society, often in seclusion or sharing associatio= n with member of a (non-familial) community. The closest I can come is in thinking about the life of some older members, stereotypically single sisters, who live close to the temple and dedicate as much of their time = as they can to working in the temple. ____________________________________________________________ =20 It seems to me our missionary program, more than fills the bill of the mo= nastic requirements of a Christian organization. God's Army portrayed thi= s very well, and depicted the monasticismness present in the church. Then= of course there are numerouse books about missionary experiences out the= re to draw from. =20 I'm not sure if these examples are monastic enough to fill the requiremen= ts of the average investigator, because our missionaries only serve for t= wo years as opposed to a life time. But there are many older missionary c= ouples who go on multiple missions after they retire, I would think this = would do the trick. The church sends out missionaries, on medical mission= s, church construction missions, welfare missions, teaching missions, and= all these missionaries devote their full time to the service of the Lord= . =20 Maybe someone needs to write a book which focuses entirely on all the dif= ferent types of missions being served through the church's great missiona= ry program. They could call it "Called to Serve" or Saints in His Service= " or something like that. Maybe it could be written as an anthology of mi= ssionary experiences, with a chapter or section on each type of missionar= y service the church offers. =20 Just adding my two cents worth. =20 Bill Willson - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Preston" Subject: [AML] Re: GA Interview for Irreantum Date: 09 Aug 2001 21:15:18 -0500 I think Chris Bigelow's idea of interviewing President Hinckley, or some other general authority, is a good one. But, with all due respect, I think a few of the questions are long and leading. Some of the questions seem more like an essay by the interviewer than a prompt for a response by the interviewee. Couldn't these questions be whittled down, so that they elicit whatever is on the interviewee's mind, even if it's not exactly what is on our mind? I feel like the possible range of responses by the interviewee are being narrowed. For example: >As far as "perfecting the Saints," what role can literature play in helping >us understand and avoid pitfalls in life? With that goal in mind, is it >advisable to take morally challenging journeys through literature? As >Latter-day Saints, we seem to allow non-Mormon writers, such as Shakespeare, >to delve into darker, earthier material than we tolerate from our own >authors. We easily embrace stories about faithful people dealing with >adversity that comes from outside themselves, such as persecution or illness >or the elements, but we get uncomfortable with literature that examines >flaws and limitations within the Mormon culture or within Mormon >individuals. Is it possible for our writers to depict something bad and have >the end result be good? How about asking a very short question, such as: "Do you feel that Latter-day Saints have different expectations of writers who are members of the Church?" A separate of follow up question could ask: "As writers, do we we limit ourselves unnecessarily, or unwisely, when writing about the problems of evil and human weakness?" Preston Hunter Dallas, TX www.adherents.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Morris Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Monasticism Date: 09 Aug 2001 19:17:15 -0700 (PDT) This is stretching the definition a bit, but I think that home schooling is a 'monastic' step that many Mormons have adopted. I don't know enough home-schooled children or adults to express how this phenomenon might be treated in literature, but I would imagine the interesting thing to explore would be what happens when home-schooled kids step out in to a setting where they experience cultural attitudes that are different from their own. Now I'm sure that not all those who are home-schooled are sheltered innocents, but I would imagine that, for some, the transition (whether that be a transition to high school, college, or the workforce) to that new setting is an intense experience. ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: [AML] Fw: MN New Products: Latest from Rachel Ann Nunes Released: Kent Larsen 8Aug01 US NY NYC A2 Date: 09 Aug 2001 22:02:02 -0400 Latest from Rachel Ann Nunes Released NEW YORK, NEW YORK -- The latest novel by best-selling LDS romance author Rachel Ann Nunes was released recently, and is slowly becoming available in LDS bookstores. Nunes latest book is not part of her long-running 'Ariana' series, but is another of her romantic novels about LDS women finding happiness and faith. Also new this week is a new cookbook, "Remedies for the 'I Don't Cook' Syndrome," a new "Brigham Bybee" mystery by John Gates, and BJ Rowley's new novel, "Sixteen in No Time." New and recent products: Bridge to Forever by Rachel Ann Nunes Covenant Book; LDS Publisher; Fiction; Mormon Author and Subject $14.95 The latest offering from popular offer Nunes is a romantic journey of love, faith and hope. A near tragedy causes Mickelle Hansen to re-evaluate her budding relationship with handsome widower Damon Wolfe, who seems to have everything she could want in a husband, and she realizes that Damon doesn't offer the one thing she desires most. Meanwhile, charming Colton Scofield is there when Mickelle needs someone the most, ready to share the secrets of his mysterious past. But even Colton is not all that he seems, and soon the very lives of those Mickelle loves hang in the balance. Remedies for the "I Don't Cook" Syndrome by Janet Peterson Deseret Book Book; LDS Publisher; Non-Fiction; Mormon Author and Subject $15.95 An innovative but simple cookbook meant to bring families together at the dinner table again. Author Peterson says, "Eating dinner together regularly provides more than good nutrition; it enables family members to share their days with each other, relax, laugh, discuss issues, socialize, and strengthen familial relationships." The book includes hundreds of easy recipes that use basic ingredients and remedies for those recipes that don't turn out quite right. The book also includes ideas for disguising leftovers and strategies for making dinnertime enjoyable for the whole family. Sister Wife: A Brigham Bybee Mystery by John Gates Walker & Co. Book; National Publisher; Fiction; Mormon Characters $23.95 In his second mystery featuring Brigham Bybee, a Utah defense lawyer and motel owner, John Gates takes on the prosecution of modern polygamy. 'Brig' is the special chief prosecutor in the case of Utah v. Rampton Crowe, polygamist head of a patriarchal religious commune, and is hiding one of Crowe's wives as a witness in the case. But then another of the wives escapes, and after Brig puts the two together, the first is murdered. While he tries to solve the mystery, Brigham faces conflicts with the politically ambitious attorney general, a feisty, jealous girlfriend, and various not-so-trustworthy investigators. Sixteen in No Time by BJ Rowley Golden Wings Enterprises Book; LDS Publisher; Fiction; Mormon Author and Subject $14.95 Celinda Russell gets her wish -- to age four days so that she will turn sixteen a couple of days before the Jr. Prom and get to go with Travis Foxx. But first Celinda must convince her parents that she is actually sixteen, and the result is a rollercoaster ride of excitement as she and her friend Mandy turn "Sixteen In No Time" and experience a whole array of funny, scary, romantic, and disastrous consequences--most of which they cause, some of which they actually manage to prevent. In the end, their parents learn a thing or two about the Spirit of the Law, and the two girls learn some very valuable lessons about boys, rules, and what being a teenage girl in this day and age is really all about. >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: Re: [AML] Medved's Arguments Date: 09 Aug 2001 21:13:45 -0600 Thom Duncan: > >Couldn't it be just the fact that R-rated movies tend to be the ones >that garner >Oscars? Getting an Oscar for a film that may not do well in the box >office is like >a massive infusion of capital to a producer or a studio for future >productions. Could be a reason, in some cases. But I see many, many movies that are rated R where the filmmakers clearly had no disillusions about their chances of getting an Oscar. Eric D. Snider - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: [AML] Fw: MN Review: "Welcome to Brigham" Shakes Off LDS Music Stereotypes: Jared Johnson 9Aug01 US UT Prov A2 Date: 10 Aug 2001 00:29:37 -0400 Review: "Welcome to Brigham" Shakes Off LDS Music Stereotypes PROVO, UTAH -- Straight from an opening scene in the movie, a police vehicle on the front cover drives past the sign greeting drivers: "Welcome to Brigham." Some may wonder, "Which direction is the vehicle headed?" since the town is fictional. The destination of the sheriff's truck is unknown, as is the location of the fantasy town. Thankfully, the music on the album "Welcome to Brigham" is more than imaginary, and it moves in the direction that LDS artists should at this leg in their journey towards a grand-scale explosion. The album is a collection of songs associated with the movie Brigham City and is not intended as a soundtrack. Regardless, it's contemporary enough to single-handedly shake off the genre stereotypes that have plagued LDS music since its inception. No one who listens to this album will put Julie de Azevedo in the same category as Janice Kapp Perry; no one will mistake Greg Simpson for George Dyer. Perhaps that is why the ten artists on "Welcome to Brigham" complement the movie so well: both send tremors underneath common conclusions of Mormon culture. There is something to learn by losing our innocence, and there are multiple genres under the broadened term "LDS music." Of course, who would show us the bold new direction of music but Peter Breinholt, Greg Simpson, and Sam Cardon? What would a tribute to any piece of LDS culture be without contributions by Julie de Azevedo and Ryan Shupe? And how can anything ultimately be considered great without some astounding new talent? Here it all comes together much like the vast array of emotions that assemble in the movie. Listen to the somberness then absorb the lyrics. These songs will trigger as much conversation as the murder mystery plot. The main theme is learning through heartache. Maren Ord asks, "What if the world were a little more perfect/Would you stop crying?" Julie cries, "I can't count the prayers/That cry out from my lips." Greg Simpson acknowledges, "We are children no more, we have sinned and grown old." Relative newcomers also shine some piercing light on the subject. Sunfall Festival shares a brooding alternative version of "Nearer, My God, To Thee." "Patience Lies" is the best possible introduction to Hawaiian phenom Kalai. His guitar work has begun a potentially glorious reign. For the majority of music fans who have a few "thinking albums," add this to the pile. It is the proper backdrop to open yourself up and do some introspection. Not necessarily the kind done when studying the scriptures, but possibly while wondering why certain things have to happen or wandering through shaded passages in life. Richard Dutcher directed the movie and echoed approval of this album. "It felt wonderful to know that I had communicated the story of Brigham City in such a way that these great musicians could internalize it and bounce the story back in their own way," Dutcher said. "I'm now able to experience the film through the eyes of other artists and live the story one more time." Remember, nothing attracts a music lover like paradise. While the mythical Brigham City is touted as paradise until a serial killer arrives, "Welcome to Brigham" has no such serpents to spoil its perfection. About the Author: Jared is a voice for LDS music in the media. He has written for The Daily Universe and The Collegiate Post and won his first journalism award at age 14. In his current work for All Music Guide (www.allmusic.com), he has reviewed scores of albums for readers who have no other way of hearing about LDS artists. He has been involved in public relations efforts in print and online for Covenant Communications, Highway Records, Colors Music and his own label, Windmill Records, home to his solo piano recordings. Jared's review is provided by Excel Entertainment, publisher of "Welcome to Brigham" To listen to clips from "Welcome to Brigham", go to http://www.welcometobrigham.com/index10.html >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sharlee Glenn" Subject: Re: [AML] GA Interview for Irreantum Date: 09 Aug 2001 23:07:44 -0600 Chris Bigelow wrote: > So my question is, who would be some good Church HQ candidates to try to get > an Irreantum interview with about the creative literary arts? I suppose the obvious choice would be Elder Holland who has a PhD in American Literature. Sharlee Glenn glennsj@inet-1.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dallas Robbins" Subject: Re: [AML] GA Interview for Irreantum Date: 09 Aug 2001 22:54:36 -0500 I think Neal Maxwell would be a good choice. He, of course, has written many books, and has received an AML award more than once, I believe. He also would probably be more easier to schedule/coordinate an interview. I would also suggest Sheri Dew, since she was the vice-president of publishing for Deseret Book, and official biographer of Pres. Hickley and Pres. Benson. An interview with her would possibly reveal a "behind the scenes" with the largest LDS publisher - invaluable information for all us writers. Of course, you would need to modify your questions for each of these suggestions, but I think it would be worth pursuing. I think also, you could consider former General Authorites - Cheiko Okazaki for one. Dallas Robbins cloudhill@yahoo.com __________________________________________ Harvest - An Online Magazine for the LDS Community http://www.harvestmagazine.com ___________________________________________ --- Original Message ----- > So my question is, who would be some good Church HQ candidates to try to get > an Irreantum interview with about the creative literary arts? I've pasted my > cover letter and proposed questions below (if anyone has any suggested > refinements to those, I'd be grateful). The first name that comes to mind is > Neal Maxwell, because he's written many books, but I'm not sure he's the > best fit for these particular questions. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Needle" Subject: [AML] Lee Nelson Query Date: 10 Aug 2001 00:38:07 -0700 Well, old age has really set in. I need to contact Lee Nelson, and can't find his e-mail address anywhere. I had it just six months ago or so, but now I can't find it anywhere. The old mail is long gone. Is there a patient soul out there that can supply it? Thanks. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 10 Aug 2001 04:02:11 -0600 Ethan Skarstedt wrote: > The Jack > Weylandesque choices that are being bandied about so much seem to be, > stated specifically, "Do I marry this non-member now or do I try and > convert them first?" No, Jack doesn't even deserve this much credit. The characters do not even expend that much brain power in the process. Some of the stories literally state that the characters meet and the nonmember starts taking the discussions within a paragraph or two--with nothing to justify the occurrence, not even a no-brainer decision like you postulated. Weyland stories act as if this were a law of nature and needs no explanation. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: [AML] Fw: MN Major LDS Music Websites Make News: Deseret News 4Aug01 US UT SLC I4 Date: 10 Aug 2001 07:21:05 -0400 Major LDS Music Websites Make News SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH -- An article in the Deseret News this past weekend looked at three major LDS music websites, discovering a growing collaborative movement that "isn't just church hymns and choir music anymore." The article looked at LDSMusicWorld.com, an LDS music directory, and KZION.com and EnsignRadio.com, two "Internet Radio" websites that stream music to listeners. But while the collaborative nature of these websites is spreading familiarity with LDS music, all three are part-time efforts with varying amounts of investment and it remains to be seen if any of these efforts can become a self-supporting operation. Probably the most useful of the three is LDSMusicWorld.com, which is more a directory of LDS musicians than the others, something like the popular music site mp3.com. As such it has the most complete list of LDS musicians available, although some notable artists, such as Low and Randy Bachman are missing, as are any musicians no longer performing (such as The Guess Who or Bachman Turner Overdrive or Joe Bennett). And owner Jefferson Fairbanks, a Boise, Idaho PhD who is chief of medical physics at Boise's St. Luke's Regional Medical Center, credits this with some of his success, "People are so interested in learning about others who are LDS. Take She-Daisy or Tal Bachman -- most people don't know they are LDS, and they are intrigued by that." His involvement in music and the arts is no surprise, however, Fairbanks is the grandson of prominent LDS sculptor Avard Fairbanks, and is a musician himself. Currently LDSMusicWorld.com and its sister website LDSMusician.com do not receive any revenue, but still attract about 50,000 page views each month -- all from word-of-mouth advertising. Like the other music websites, LDSMusicWorld.com avoids copyright trouble because artists donate their songs for use on the site, and have the responsibility for making sure that they have cleared copyright with the music's composer. KZION.com developed after founder John Hesch offered an MP3 file of Janet Clayton Sloan's song "Love Is A Verb" on his Home and Visiting Teaching website, LDSTeach.com . When he got a strong positive response, and lots of downloads, he decided to bring in other musicians. That developed into offering the music in streaming audio, and last November, a radio station. After starting with just 6 LDS musicians, Hesch has steadily added music from musicians and even from publishers, who have donated dozens of albums at once, giving Hesch a large list of music to draw from. Recently, KZION's challenges have been mostly technical, with connectivity problems sometimes interrupting the server's connection and users sometimes hitting his capacity of 30 to 40 simultaneous listeners. And Hesch admits that the idea of running an LDS radio station has excited him. "Yea, this is kind of like a dream for me," he told Mormon News last November, "I've always wanted to be a DJ and in a simple kind of way I can do that here." In contrast, EnsignRadio.com has enough capacity, and slightly different goals. Run by Las Vegas intellectual property attorney and musician Robert Graham, EnsignRadio is trying to promote high-quality digital music by LDS musicians as well as by Christian musicians. Graham's biggest frustration is that so many recordings he receives are not the high-quality digital broadcast quality sound he wants, "There are lots of talented musicians out there, but many of them have four track recordings, and that's not really broadcast quality sound. Right now there's just not a lot of financial motivation for them to move into this kind of technology." But Graham does have a vision of what LDS radio could be, "I'm kind of a techno buff, and saw the future of radio moving away from AM/FM toward Internet-based radio. I felt that taking an early step would be a smart thing to do." So Graham has spent $100,000 on file servers and equipment, and hopes to attract artists that are the highest quality, "Obviously people like Gladys Knight, Thurl Bailey and Colors can provide that kind of sound. But I'm looking at having to provide hours and hours of music and always having to upgrade and give people something fresh." But since, Graham says, he only gets one new LDS CD of sufficient quality every two months, he is mixing in some Christian music to fill out the programing. He says that the LDS market is about 10 years behind the Christian market, "We're getting artists now that are learning to produce more of a pop sound. The essential talent is there, but it needs to be developed a little and people in the industry haven't turned their focus to the LDS market -- yet." Source: LDS Music Comes to Web Deseret News 4Aug01 I4 http://www.deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,295015419,00.html By Carrie A. Moore: Deseret News religion editor See also: KZION Radio May Begin Independent LDS Radio http://www.mormonstoday.com/001103/I2KZION01.shtml LDS Radio 'Instrumental' Channel Suspended http://www.mormonstoday.com/010525/I3LDSRadioSusp01.shtml >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: [AML] Fw: MN Books in the News: Kent Larsen 8Aug01 B2 Date: 10 Aug 2001 08:48:08 -0400 Books in the News: 1. Book Review: The Miracle Life of Edgar Mint The Miracle Life of Edgar Mint AML-List Rewiew 23Jul01 A6 http://www.xmission.com/~aml/reviews/b/B200158.html Reviewed by: Andrew R Hall 2. Book Review: The River Path The River Path AML-List Rewiew 26Jul01 A6 http://www.xmission.com/~aml/reviews/b/B200159.html Reviewed by: Jeff Needle 3. Book Review: Mormons against the Mob? Mormons against the Mob? AML-List Review 1Aug01 A6 Reviewed by Roy Schmidt 4. Recommendation: Near Cumorah's Hill: Images of the Restoration A Bibliophile's Paradise BYU Magazine Summer01 A6 http://advance.byu.edu/byumag/article.tpl?num=3D54-Sum01 By Richard H. Cracroft 5. Recommendation: The Encyclopedia of Latter-day Saint History A Bibliophile's Paradise BYU Magazine Summer01 A6 http://advance.byu.edu/byumag/article.tpl?num=3D54-Sum01 By Richard H. Cracroft 6. Recommendation: Printing in Deseret: Mormons, Economy, Politics, & Utah's Incunabula, 1849=AD1851 A Bibliophile's Paradise BYU Magazine Summer01 A6 http://advance.byu.edu/byumag/article.tpl?num=3D54-Sum01 By Richard H. Cracroft 7. Recommendation: All Things Restored: Confirming the Authenticity of LDS Beliefs A Bibliophile's Paradise BYU Magazine Summer01 A6 http://advance.byu.edu/byumag/article.tpl?num=3D54-Sum01 By Richard H. Cracroft 8. Recommendation: Three Degrees of Glory: Joseph Smith's Insights on the Kingdoms of Heaven A Bibliophile's Paradise BYU Magazine Summer01 A6 http://advance.byu.edu/byumag/article.tpl?num=3D54-Sum01 By Richard H. Cracroft 9. Recommendation: Dad Was a Carpenter: Blueprints for a Meaningful Life A Bibliophile's Paradise BYU Magazine Summer01 A6 http://advance.byu.edu/byumag/article.tpl?num=3D54-Sum01 By Richard H. Cracroft 10. Recommendation: Burial in Beirut A Bibliophile's Paradise BYU Magazine Summer01 A6 http://advance.byu.edu/byumag/article.tpl?num=3D54-Sum01 By Richard H. Cracroft 11. Recommendation: I Don't Have to Make Everything All Better A Bibliophile's Paradise BYU Magazine Summer01 A6 http://advance.byu.edu/byumag/article.tpl?num=3D54-Sum01 By Richard H. Cracroft 12. Recommendation: Gift of the Whale: The Inupiat Bowhead Hunt, A Sacred Tradition A Bibliophile's Paradise BYU Magazine Summer01 A6 http://advance.byu.edu/byumag/article.tpl?num=3D54-Sum01 By Richard H. Cracroft 13. Recommendation: Winds of Change More about "Winds of Change" by Dory J. Peters at Cedar Fort A Bibliophile's Paradise BYU Magazine Summer01 A6 http://advance.byu.edu/byumag/article.tpl?num=3D54-Sum01 By Richard H. Cracroft 14. Review: Sister Wife Murder and mayhem, from Utah to Australia Chicago Tribune 22Jul01 A6 http://chicagotribune.com/features/books/chi-0107220021jul22.story?coll=3Dch= i% 2Dleisurebooks%2Dhed Reviewed by Dick Adler 15. Review: Brothers in Valor: A Story of Resistance Fine novels eye wars' impact at individual level Sacramento CA Bee 29Jul01 A6 http://www.sacbee.com/lifestyle/news/lifestyle05_20010729.html Reviewed by Judy Green: Bee Copy Editor 16. Review: Restitution Two Takes on the Old West Salt Lake Tribune 29Jul01 A6 http://www.sltrib.com/07292001/arts/117375.htm Reviewed by Martin Naparsteck: Special to the Tribune 'Restitution' Is Contrived and Thin; 'Code of the West' Is a Gut-Wrenching Good Read 17. News: The Miracle Life of Edgar Mint Washington Is Also Reading... Washington Post 5Aug01 A6 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25437-2001Aug2.html >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Grant Subject: Re: [AML] Editing Literature Date: 10 Aug 2001 07:59:06 -0600 D. Michael Martindale writes: [...] >If art is, after all, to afflict the comfortable, letting the >comfortable excise the parts that afflict them subverts the >whole purpose of art. The hypothesis of this conditional statement--that art is to afflict the comfortable--is a statement we've heard a lot on AML-List lately. That some artists feel that they have sanction to afflict others through their art doesn't make it so. Howard Stern, Tomas de Torquemada, and Osama Bin Laden may have felt they had a similar mandate for the things that they've done. Even if we accept the hypothesis, must the conclusion follow? After all, I can believe, with C.S. Lewis, that pain is used by God as a "megaphone to rouse a deaf world" without being obligated by that belief not to try to avoid certain painful experiences, can't I? Chris Grant grant@math.byu.edu - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steffany Name Subject: [AML] Orson Scott CARD, _Lost Boys_ (Review) Date: 10 Aug 2001 08:48:18 -0700 (PDT) Lost Boys By Orson Scott Card HarperCollins, 1992. ISBN: 0-05-109131-6 Suggested retail price: $5.95 reviewed by Steffany Jamison (Sacramento, CA) "Lost Boys" is a departure from Sci-fi and fantasy novels for Orson Scott Card. To me, it is a welcome departure. I loved this book, and I cried all the way through the last chapter. "Lost Boys" tells the story of the Fletcher Family as they adjust to their new lives in North Carolina where the father, Step, has taken a job with a software company. The the main story involves a mysterous change that begins to happen to their young son, and the ending has a wonderful twist. The subplots dealing with how they adjust to their new Ward and the members rang very true to me and were extremely humorous. This is a novel that portrays LDS people as flawed, normal people who have the same desires and feelings as everyone else. It was refreshing to see fully fleshed-out LDS characters with rich personalities. My husband read this book with me and he loved it as much as I did. He is the real Orson Scott Card fan in the family and he wasn't disappointed by this book, even without the sci-fi stuff. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: [AML] (On Stage) Visitor's Centers vs. The Baseball Hall of Fame Date: 09 Aug 2001 11:35:54 -0600 ON STAGE Visitor's Centers vs. The Baseball Hall of Fame OR What I did on my family vacation. By Eric Samuelsen My family and I just got back from three weeks seeing Church History sites = and visitor's centers. We did Nauvoo. We did the jails, Liberty and = Carthage. We participated in a Kirtland Temple drive-by shooting, cameras = a-blazing. We did Palmyra. We got lots of missionaries to tell us who = what when and where, and we saw several Church-made films. We saw a short = musical about life in Nauvoo. (Not City of Joseph, The Pageant,as the = horses in Nauvoo are mostly tame, and it would have taken wild ones to = drag me there; what we saw was a little missionary song and dance number = held in the Visitor Center. My main reaction to it was how come I didn't = get to hang out with sisternaries that pretty on MY mission.)=20 As it happens, I was also able to worship at my other church, and visit = the baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown NY. Took my two sons with me, = the main women in my life (wife and daughters) electing to stay behind = with my sister-in-law in Ithaca. =20 So, HOF and VC's. Spent a lot of time in both. And had very similar = experiences. First, some differences. Abner Doubleday did not invent baseball in = Cooperstown NY. That sense of iconicity of place that makes Palmyra = special is lacking in Cooperstown, because the event it celebrates didn't = happen there. Joseph and his family really did live in Palmyra. Baseball = was invented by Alexander Cartwright, in New York City. The evidence that = says that Cooperstown is special is bogus; everyone knows that now. =20 So there's a feeling at the Hill Cumorah or Sacred Grove that really is = unique. =20 But on presentation issues, there are tiny other differences. First of = all, the music's better at Cooperstown. The fourteen minute film there had = the same reverential, mythical, hushed awe, aiming-for-transcendental = quality as the fourteen minute films in Carthage, Nauvoo and Palmyra, but = in Cooperstown, you end the film with John Fogerty singing Centerfield. = Yes, the founder of Creedence Clearwater Revival is a baseball fan. For = some reason, we didn't ask Randy Bachman to do our music, so unfortunately,= baseball gets better music. We're still stuck with all that soaring = flute and strings stuff. VC's have missionary tour guides; the HOF leans = more toward displays, with just a few guides to answer questions. VC's = don't have gift shops; the HOF has two.=20 However: Both the HOF and the VC are in the business of historical revision and = mythmaking. At the HOF, Babe Ruth gets a whole room all to himself, and = the tone is heroic and reverential, with much emphasis on his love of = small children and charity work at hospitals. Ruth's frequent bouts with = syphilis, general vulgarity of language and manner, and trysts with = prostitutes aren't mentioned. Even Ty Cobb, a vicious bully and overall = racist creep if there ever was one, gets a wholesome makeover. By the = same token, Nauvoo never mentions polygamy, and rather gives the impression= that a whole bunch of folks from Illinois just suddenly took into their = heads the notion that Joseph needed shootin'. No mention of the destructio= n of the Nauvoo Expositor, except briefly, in passing, in one display in = the Visitor's Center. (No mention whatever, of course, of the fact that = the Expositor was destroyed, essentially, for telling the truth about some = embarrassing Nauvoo realities.) =20 No, both places, the story is told very carefully. The HOF mentions the = color bar, but the emphasis is on Jackie Robinson and the integration of = baseball. The VC's mention polygamy, but the emphasis is on persecution, = faithfully endured.=20 I also thought it was ironic that in the VC's, we saw a short film that = included footage of Joseph playing baseball with kids in Nauvoo (and = hitting a home run). And at the HOF, they quote Roger Angell on eternal = verities: "in baseball, you can remain forever young. Because there is no = clock, if you can keep the rally going, keep hitting safely, the game will = never end. You will have defeated time." So baseball gets an eternal = perspective, and the Church gets a prophet . . . playing baseball. =20 Let me also say that at both the HOF and the VC's, the carefully edited = presentation of history doesn't much matter. Both institutions exist = primarily to affirm the faith of believers. At the HOF, I didn't meet a = single non-baseball fan. Some fans were more knowledgeable than others, = but there wasn't anyone there who needed converting. At the VC's I = visited, I never once saw a fellow visitor who wasn't LDS. Those sorts of = museumy places exist to serve the converted. I have a testimony of Joseph = Smith's mission, and found my testimony strengthened by what I saw at all = the VC's I visited. I know more history than was presented for me, but I = didn't visit either VC's or the HOF looking for actual history. I went to = have my faith strengthened, and I got what I was looking for. =20 And the setting isn't right for anything more involved. The temperature = in Nauvoo was approximately 175, with 290 percent humidity, and the place = has mosquitos the size of red-tailed hawks. Ten minutes outdoors, and my = shirt was soaked. And it's a very long walk from place to place. What = you want from a visitor's center is, a) air conditioning, b) a drinking = fountain, and c) a presentation that's short and undemanding. By the same = token, Cooperstown is a tacky little town with no parking. What I want = from the Hall of Fame isn't Bob Creamer's Babe Ruth biography. I'll read = that at home. I want to feel good about liking baseball. And Babe Ruth = did enjoy kids. That's the other thing; you don't get real history, but they do make some = effort to get basic facts right; I mean, you don't see anything, or I = didn't, that wasn't factually true. Shoeless Joe Jackson isn't in the = Hall of Fame, and he shouldn't be, but his actual contributions are = acknowledged. We may not think much of Sidney Rigdon, but he is mentioned,= and about as prominently as he should have been.=20 When they do talk about history, it's from the perspective of 'this is how = they did things back then.' I loved the Grandin printing press, in = Palmyra, for example. I loved learning about how they printed books back = then. I loved the room in Nauvoo where you learned how they made rope, or = how they made candles. I made a rope and I made a candle. I wouldn't = have liked that room if it hadn't been air-conditioned, but I liked it = just fine as it was. And I loved looking at Tris Speaker's glove, and the = flannel uniform Bob Feller wore when he pitched. =20 Both places also had a medieval holy relic feel at times. I felt this = particularly at the HOF, looking at Lou Gehrig's locker or Ty Cobb's false = teeth. At Carthage, they're very quick to point out that this is the = actual door through which Hyrum was shot, but overall, I didn't get quite = that 'a piece of the True Cross' feel at VC's that I got at the HOF. = =20 Still, what really stuck out was how similar both places were. The = message of Mormonism is unique and remarkable, and I do believe in it. = But the presentation of that message is not out of the ordinary; it's = essentially the same as the celebratory presentation style used by other = museums with an agenda. And, let me add, that's okay. =20 Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: Re: [AML] GA Interview for Irreantum Date: 10 Aug 2001 11:50:23 -0500 Another good candidate for the interview would be Jeffrey Holland, who I believe has an advanced degree in English, and if my memory serves me was listed as a member of the English department during his tenure as BYU president and may even have taught a course or two for the department from time to time. I don't have details about his area of specialty, literary activity, or the like. I think that before conducting the interview, you would need to get someone who is informed on these matters and revise the interview questions accordingly, including some of the same material but focusing also on areas of his own personal activity in English. Does anyone on the List know about this? Another candidate, in my view, would be Elder Oaks. I recall that when he was president of BYU, he talked (in some venue for students) about the kind of care he felt was essential in order to do good writing--15 or more drafts, as I recall. And I think he's the person I remember advising that English was an excellent major for future lawyers. (I don't know what his major was.) I don't know what his level of involvement has been with literature--what he reads, etc.--but he's done writing for general audiences outside/prior to his call as a General Authority; he has that experience as a university president; and he's always struck me as exceedingly well-rounded and intellectually potent. Jonathan Langford Speaking for myself, not the List jlangfor@pressenter.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: RE: [AML] Medved's Arguments Date: 10 Aug 2001 10:44:23 -0600 Jacob wrote: >I sort of agree with the premise that the artists in Hollywood tend to >depict things out of proportion to reality and tend to give their own >lives more validity than they truly have in the "real" world. =20 But of course this is true. All artists do this. That's the fun thing = about being an artist; you get to dramatize your life, your concerns, your = issues. I mean, that's topic A on this list, right? How do we as LDS = artists get our concerns, lives, issues out there. And what's this 'real = world' thing anyway? =20 >How else >do you explain that *every* sympathetic fictional Hollywood U.S. >President is a liberal? =20 Again, this makes perfect sense. Most artists are politically liberal. = If I'm going to write in a positive way about a politician, I'm going to = have him support the 'right' opinions: mine. I mean, we define a = political figure by the ideas he/she supports, right? =20 >Or that a successful professional can light up >a joint in the middle of a session with no other affect on the character >(seriously, a 50 plus year old professional woman tokes up like it's no >big deal and she's not spacey or furtive or any other indication of what >that would mean for the character? C'mon.)? It bugs me. I had bosses who did that. I used to manage a restuarant in a big national = chain, and the VP who came to visit us used to toke up with us. (Not with = me, of course, but you know what I mean.) =20 >Movie studios don't >release the data you would need in order to figure out if a movie was >profitable or not. They don't release that information to the people >who *make* the movies, let alone to the public. In order to tell if a >film is profitable, you have to look at costs (an unknown) vs. revenues >(also an unknown despite what you might think). All true. >Since Hollywood keeps >making money (they're still in business after all) and since they >continue to be able to afford to pay individual actors upwards of $20 >million per movie I would guess that rated R movies are profitable >enough to keep the studios going. Good point. And remember, most of these analyses focus on domestic = grosses. The foreign markets, though, are hugely important nowadays. = There are lots of films that tank in the states that do fine internationall= y. >The very fact that the majority of rated G movies are produced by a >single studio and that studio doesn't dominate the overall movie market >shows me that rated G movies are *not* the best way for *every* >movie >studio to make money. Obviously, rated G is working out pretty well for >Disney. =20 G rated films are generally box office poison--except for Disney films. = Remember that Disney has an enormous marketing advantage over all other G = rated films. Brand name loyalty, for starters. Amusement park tie-ins. = Their own TV network. Took my kids to see Princess Diaries last night, as = it happens, a film that I essentially found unwatchable. But it's going = to do fine. >But how well are they doing for anyone else? What happened to >Don Bluth? =20 The conventional wisdom is that DreamWorks has a chance to catch Disney. = I doubt it; even a great film like Prince of Egypt did very poorly. Shrek = did well; we'll have to see. Chicken Run did great, but it should have; = he's building the audience he's created with the Wallace and Gromit fans, = and besides, the picture was terrific. Disney wouldn't be doing well, = though, if it weren't for their purchase of Pixar. =20 Remember, great family movies are great because they tell great stories, = and they're great because great talents create them. The 'Disney magic' = wasn't very magical when it came to Pocahontas, or Hunchback. Their big = Mermaid/Beauty/Aladdin/Lion King winning streak came because they found a = guy like Alan Menken working off-Broadway and had the sense to hire him. = The Pixar people are geniuses, and the two Toy Story movies are brilliant = films. In other words, G rated films don't do well in the box office. = Terrific films do well in the box office, provided that they're marketed = well. And since there are fewer G rated films released than the other = ratings, a few wonderful films can have a disproportionate statistical = impact. =20 >If rated G really rocks like these people claim, why isn't >Don Bluth a household name? Titan AE (the last movie I know about >from >Don Bluth) is an awesome movie. =20 Well, Don Bluth has a very mixed record. A lot of his films haven't been = very strong. And when he says his films lose money, he means domestic = gross is disappointing. Kid's films do disproportionately well on = video-cassette. (That's why they've now made Land Before Time VII.) >And even Disney is busy trying to branch out into R-rated >movies (through subsidiaries). =20 Touchstone isn't a subsidiary; it's part of Disney. It's just another = label. Disney doesn't want to branch out into R-rated movies; it just = wants to make movies, like any studio. =20 Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: RE: [AML] Mormon Monasticism Date: 10 Aug 2001 12:23:13 -0600 ---Original Message From: Christopher Bigelow > Don't most people think of Mormon missionaries as monks among > men? Mormon missionary life is certainly monastic not in > social seclusion but in ascetic simplicity and other ways. > And I would even argue that because missionaries are supposed > to be so incredibly focused on baptizing people, they lead a > sort of monastacized social life, if that's possible. They > interact with people, but they must maintain tunnel vision > and--ideally--not allow any non-missionary impulses to > deflect their purpose (romantic, career interests, hobbies, > cultural interests except maybe on P-day). Maybe that's one > of the reasons the Church started a missionary community > service program, to lessen such pressures on missionaries. In > the most extreme cases of a certain kind of missionary zeal, > people almost become commodities rather than individuals, > lumps of plastic to be shaped, or bees--as at the Huntsville, > Utah, monastary--to be managed into manmade hives. In the > Mormon missionary worldview, the mission boundaries are the > walls of a monastery and the local citizens are what the > missionary-monks expend their repetitive manual labor upon > (doorknocking). > > Regardless of the amount of talking to people and serving > that missionaries are supposed to do, the whole endeavor has > a very monastic feel to it, a feeling of seclusion and denial > from the world. Right now, my missionary memoir starts with a > scene of missionary work on an island within Australia, and > the main character (me) feels a sort of vertigo from being > upon an island within an island. Later I develop that image > into Mormonism as feeling like an island and a mission as > feeling like an island within Mormonism. Maybe I'll have to > develop that image into the memoir's title: An Island within > An Island: Memoirs of a Mormon Missionary. But seclusion is only a small part of monasticism and just the exterior part at that. At the heart of monasticism (as I understand it) is the desire to contemplate the divine. The seclusion is merely a tool, the exterior manifestation of this underlying impulse. I don't think you can truly be a part of a monastic tradition unless you have this fundamental search for enlightenment. Missionaries go out to seek converts, not spiritual epiphany. Mormonism (particularly early Mormonism) partakes somewhat of the Gnostic tradition of seeking enlightenment in the form of a final, comprehensive (Gnostic) epiphany. Today, that's dwindled to some vague notion of having your "calling and election made sure" with our main Gnostic impulse considered fulfilled when a testimony is gained (and other Gnostic impulses deliberately removed such as when the final line of "I'm am a Child of God" was changed from "Teach me all that I must know" to "Teach me all that I must do"). As such, I agree with the original contention that we are one of the *least* monastic modern religions. We actively discourage isolation and have a deep suspicion of meditory enlightenment. Some of our teachings go so far as to state that spiritual joy is found in going the *other* way--you find peace and understanding of our divine nature through service to others. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Melissa Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 10 Aug 2001 12:26:52 -0600 On Thu, 09 Aug 2001 18:02:46 -0500, Ronn Blankenship wrote: >At 03:42 AM 8/9/01, D. Michael Martindale wrote: > >>I never complained about an isolated Weyland story that presented one = of >>these conversions. It was the relentless pattern of story after story >>where boy meets girl, and days later girl is taking missionary >>discussions. The occurrence was never foreshadowed or justified by >>circumstances or characterization. It just happened, as if this was how >>things always happen, without comment. >Having not read a lot (if any) of this type of fiction, I have a=20 >question: does Weyland (or someone else) ever write stories where it's = a=20 >non-member guy who falls for a Mormon girl and converts, or is it always= a=20 >male RM continuing his missionary work after returning home? If the=20 >latter, does anyone have any ideas why the other version is not used? The first Jack Weyland book I read was _The Understudy_, which has a non-Mormon guy, an actor, who is cast as Jesus Christ in a movie produced= by (I can't remember exactly) either the Church or a Mormon company. He = ends up converting not because of the Mormon woman he falls in love with = (though this is a factor) but because of the experience of portraying the Savior; the woman coaches him in religious study as part of his preparation. Ditto _A New Dawn_, which still has a female non-member converting, but = not just because she falls for a guy; she's a scientist who makes a controversial and important discovery, and "escapes" to BYU with a new = name to hide from the publicity. She chooses it because it seems like the = last place anyone would look for her, without knowing anything about the = Mormons. Again, she falls in love, but it's the relationship with her roommates = and her interaction with her teachers that provides most of the conversion impetus. I still like this book. In fact, I like a lot of Weyland's early books, before he started writing "problem" novels, which don't appeal to me in general. They seem written primarily for the purpose of reaffirming the truth of the gospel, and = while that makes them unambiguous and even simplistic (depending on your = tastes), that's not all bad. _Last of the Big-Time Spenders_ is really funny, as = I recall, and _A New Dawn_ takes on issues of dating and marriage that question what were then "established truths" about how a woman should = behave if she wanted to catch a man. (Unfortunately, there's a technical = problem with it. I've read the short story segment as well as the novel, and there's a key scene which doesn't make sense in the book because = something that *does* appear in the short version is removed. I hope it's just my family's copy, but I doubt it.) Melissa Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: Re: [AML] Medved's Arguments Date: 11 Aug 2001 12:23:07 -0600 (MDT) > On Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 09:49:33PM -0600, Jacob Proffitt wrote: > > If rated G really rocks like these people claim, why isn't Don Bluth > > a household name? Titan AE (the last movie I know about from Don > > Bluth) is an awesome movie. I have to take you upon that - It was a horrid pile of SF cliches. Not one original idea, line of dialouge or creative thought went into it. My wife and I made a game of figuring out where we had heard those lines before - every line in the movie except for one has probably been in at least a dozen other SF flicks - most of then low grade ones that show up on MST3K (Mystery Science Theatre 3000) - in fact, Titan AE is perfect MST3K fodder. It was awful - I couldn't find anything original or redeeming in it. My wife hated it even more. (I'd say we actually considered suing Don Bluth for the 90 minutes of our life we want back - but we decided it was our fault - we had been warned by others). --Ivan Wolfe - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: luannstaheli Subject: Re: [AML] Editing Literature Date: 10 Aug 2001 14:46:46 -0600 Terri Reid wrote: Now, perhaps if enough people voted with their money - through not buying a video, not going to a movie, not watching a TV show - perhaps then, Hollywood would get the message. Because Hollywood is not interested in art - Hollywood is interested in money. Terri, >From The Hollywood Reporter August 2001 Theatrical Release movies by Rating showing % of box office total, # of films in rating, total B.O.$, average per film R - 31% 170 films $2,433.49mil $14.31 mil PG13 - 49% 80films $3,739,58 mil $46.74mil G - 7% 15films $ 519.49mil $34.63mil PG - 12% 27films $ 907.62mil $33.62mil So, the audience seems to be telling film makers that PG13 are the best financial expendature and R rated the worst, but more R rated films are made than any other category. It seems that the order of "best buys" for studios would be: PG!#, G, PG, R by looking at the average made per film. But as we all know, averages don't often work out to be a true picture of the way life is. To prove that, come into our Utah classrooms where the public is told class size averages are 23-25 students and notice the classrooms that actually have 40+ students per class period. Lu Ann - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 11 Aug 2001 02:17:20 -0600 Ronn Blankenship wrote: > does Weyland (or someone else) ever write stories where it's a > non-member guy who falls for a Mormon girl and converts, or is it always a > male RM continuing his missionary work after returning home? If the > latter, does anyone have any ideas why the other version is not used? Well, I'm at work and the Weyland book is not, so I can't verify it, but I don't recall any females converting males off-hand. That may be nothing more than Weyland being male, therefore writing male protagonists. All my protagonists are male by default, unless I have a specific reason to do otherwise. I know the internal functioning of a male better than a female, so why make things harder than I need to? -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sharlee Glenn" Subject: Re: [AML] GA Interview for Irreantum Date: 10 Aug 2001 16:47:16 -0600 Jonathan Langford wrote: > Another good candidate for the interview would be Jeffrey Holland, who I > believe has an advanced degree in English, and if my memory serves me was > listed as a member of the English department during his tenure as BYU > president and may even have taught a course or two for the department from > time to time. > > I don't have details about his area of specialty, literary activity, or the > like. I think that before conducting the interview, you would need to get > someone who is informed on these matters and revise the interview questions > accordingly, including some of the same material but focusing also on areas > of his own personal activity in English. Does anyone on the List know about > this? His area of specialty is American Literature. Richard Cracroft would be the man to consult before approaching Elder Holland. Good luck, Chris. This is an interview I would LOVE to read. Sharlee Glenn glennsj@inet-1.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Medved's Arguments Date: 11 Aug 2001 02:37:37 -0600 Jacob Proffitt wrote: > I haven't seen "Air Force One" so I probably shouldn't use "every" in > any case. The "Air Force One" president was also pretty apolitical. But I heard that Harrison Ford told Bill Clinton that he used him as his model for playing the president. Personally, I don't see the connection at all. Modeling the "Air Force One" president after Bill Clinton would be like playing the Pope and modeling him after Larry Flint. > Movies I *have* seen with U.S. Presidents? "Dave", "Dick", "Wag the > Dog", "Contact", and, um, I'm drawing a blank here. Truthfully, my > comment was probably just an example of my continuing disgust with > "Dave" and Barbara Streisand. What was so bad about "Dave"? I thought it was a rather sweet movie that had little politics in it. The politics that did exist were there as window dressing, not part of the main plot or of any agenda. The fact that window dressing politics from Hollywood would turn out to be Democratic isn't terriby surprising. But I didn't get any sense of agenda in the movie. "Dick" was a spoof and was hilarious. Of course it lambasted a Republican administration, but that was because it was Nixon's administration, which frankly was ripe for lampooning. I thought it was all in good fun. "Wag the Dog" I haven't seen purely by accident. Just haven't gotten around to it yet, even though I have a copy on tape at home. "Contact" used Clinton simply because he was president at the time, and not for any discernable political agenda that I could see. The blank you're drawing must certainly include "American President," which was clearly agenda-laden and caustically anti-conservative. I never watched it because I heard about it, then when I had a chance to see it on satellite TV, just happened to come in on that infamous speech scene. After being exposed to that, I knew that watching the film would raise my blood pressure to unhealthy levels, so I never bothered, ignoring how nice the story may have been. > How many of you can name *a* conservative actor, director or > producer? Now at this point, aren't we supposed to bring up Arnold Schwarzenegger, Bruce Willis, and Charlton Heston? -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 11 Aug 2001 03:58:28 +0000 My memory of those novels read long ago is hazy, but I'm pretty sure that the male protagonists of Welyand's novels _Peppertide_ and _The Understudy_ are influenced in their conversions by female Mormons with whom they have a romantic interest. I also remember a Church video about 10 years ago about member missionary work, which featured a pretty Mormon girl who had made a committment to not date non-Mormons. The handsome non-Mormon boy who asks her out, and is rebuffed, is impressed by her committment, and soon takes the missionary discussions and is baptized. Andrew Hall >From: Ronn Blankenship >Having not read a lot (if any) of this type of fiction, I have a >question: does Weyland (or someone else) ever write stories where it's a >non-member guy who falls for a Mormon girl and converts, or is it always a >male RM continuing his missionary work after returning home? If the >latter, does anyone have any ideas why the other version is not used? > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Annette Lyon" Subject: Re: [AML] Introductions: Paul Bishop Date: 12 Aug 2001 19:36:14 -0600 "I knew a Bishop Bishop once. I also met a pair of missionaries, Christopher Meek and Frederick Humble. You know, Elder Humble and Elder Meek (a true story)." I can beat that. I knew of a companionship made of Elder Hooker and Elder Virgin! Annette Lyon - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: Re: [AML] Email Essays Date: 11 Aug 2001 17:35:39 -0600 On Thu, 9 Aug 2001 16:41:49 -0600 "Jacob Proffitt" writes: > We *could* discuss what I consider to be a new literary genre if we > wanted. Since many of us publish in it, it might be interesting to > see if it qualifies as a genre and what rules might apply. I'm talking > about the email essay of course. > Personally, the time spent crafting many of my replies can best be > measured in hours. I'll read through a proposed post several times > for flow and clarity and sometimes I'll ask Melissa to read over it to > make sure I'm making sense before sending it off. I'm hoping that > I'm not the only one who does that You're not. I do it too which is why I'm a rather sporadic contributor to the list. Most of the time I just don't have the time or the energy to respond the way I'd like to. When I do respond, however, I usually spend a little bit of time with it. And, like you, I save most of the bigger ones, the Email Essays as you call them. I've started saving them in a folder titled "Musings." The main purpose for this is that I don't keep a journal, and since most of my email essays are sort of journal-like, I figure if I spout off enough around here eventually I'll have something that's almost a journal. I also save a few of the email essays that I send to family and friends on occasion. And the year end update that I send out at Christmas. I usually hate those things, but I do my best to make ours entertaining or provocative in some way so that my friends won't say, "Oh, another one of those stupid Christmas letters all about the Bronsons. I hope it doesn't rhyme." J. Scott Bronson -- Member of Playwrights Circle "The sun, with all those planets revolving around it and dependent upon it, can still ripen a bunch of grapes as if it had nothing else in the universe to do." Galileo - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] GA Interview for Irreantum Date: 10 Aug 2001 10:48:42 -0600 Jeffrey Holland. He has an advanced degree in English, and is a former = university president (only the BY, but hey, that counts.) He's the = obvious choice.=20 Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tami Miller" Subject: Re: [AML] Aspirations for Mormon Lit Date: 13 Aug 2001 03:49:20 +0000 I agree with you about the lack of persistence in Mormon Literature for the most part. Many of the books I've read never come to mind again, with a few exceptions. One of these is _Paradise Vue_. The humor was light, but stayed with me. Everytime I think of the sister with mice living in her house, or the RF Sister who offered alcohol (albeit unknowingly) to the RF Presidency, I just can't help but search my memory for examples of ward members I have known who would have fit right into this story. There really isn't enough good, clean humor in LDS Literature. I hope to see more. I've been reading _The Whipping Boy_, also. It's very engaging, and thought provoking. I find myself thinking about the characters long after I've shut down my computer. I hope you keep writing J. Scott Bronson, I for one will read (and buy) everything you write. -Tami Miller - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] Medved's Arguments Date: 10 Aug 2001 11:30:39 -0500 At 06:20 PM 8/9/01, Jacob Proffitt wrote: >I'll say that with Independence Day, I didn't get a sense of >politics at all. Not surprising for a movie that dealt with the >aftermath of an alien invasion. Hard to be liberal or conservative when >the White House was just blown up. Yes. Everybody in the theatre cheered at that scene, obviously without regard to ideology. --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Grant Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 10 Aug 2001 11:20:51 -0600 D. Michael Martindale writes: [...] >I never complained about an isolated Weyland story that >presented one of these conversions. It was the relentless >pattern of story after story where boy meets girl, and days >later girl is taking missionary discussions. [...] >>I've looked around a little bit, but haven't been able to >>figure out what collection you could be referring to. Do >>you remember its title? > >_First Day of Forever_ _First Day of Forever_ is a collection of 12 short stories Weyland originally had published in the _New Era_. (Weyland has had about 60 short stories published in the _New Era_ overall.) I would say that 2 of the 12 fit the pattern D. Michael mentions above: "Charly" and "Onward, Christian Soldiers". In a third, "The Least of These, My Brother", a non-LDS girl attends Church with an LDS boy, who then tries to develop whatever interest she has in the Church. It turns out that she really doesn't have any interest; she doesn't take the discussions and ends up dumping the boy when he chooses to stay home to baptize the school "loser" rather than go away with her and her parents for the weekend. Each of these stories is about 5000 words long, which may help explain why things move along quicker than many of us would perceive as normal in real life. In a separate message, D. Michael writes: >Ethan Skarstedt wrote: > >>The Jack Weylandesque choices that are being bandied about >>so much seem to be, stated specifically, "Do I marry this >>non-member now or do I try and convert them first?" > >No, Jack doesn't even deserve this much credit. The >characters do not even expend that much brain power in the >process. Some of the stories literally state that the >characters meet and the nonmember starts taking the >discussions within a paragraph or two By my count, it's 47 paragraphs between the meeting and the missionary discussions in "Charly", and 84 paragraphs between the meeting and the missionary discussions in "Onward, Christian Soldiers". (These are short paragraphs, mostly dialogue.) >--with nothing to justify the occurrence, not even a >no-brainer decision like you postulated. I agree that deciding whether or not to marry someone you've only known a few days is probably a no-brainer. _The American Heritage Dictionary_ defines a no-brainer as "something so simple or easy as to require no thought." How should an author show a character experiencing the absence of thought necessary to make a no-brainer decision? Chris Grant grant@math.byu.edu - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Craig Huls Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 10 Aug 2001 13:03:39 -0500 "D. Michael Martindale" wrote: > Ethan Skarstedt wrote: > > > The Jack > > Weylandesque choices that are being bandied about so much seem to be, > > stated specifically, "Do I marry this non-member now or do I try and > > convert them first?" > > No, Jack doesn't even deserve this much credit. The characters do not > even expend that much brain power in the process. Some of the stories > literally state that the characters meet and the nonmember starts taking > the discussions within a paragraph or two--with nothing to justify the > occurrence, not even a no-brainer decision like you postulated. Weyland > stories act as if this were a law of nature and needs no explanation. Part of the problem related to the rising statistics in the Church of backsliding, divorce and more, IMHO. [not Jack W. but the attitude of membership in the church is all that is needed to be happy.] "Good" Mormons, to me are people who make mistakes, repent, make restitution and grow from their experiences. On the other hand, start preaching in a novel and you definitely run the risk of losing your market. I suspect many read fiction to escape their current existence. They are probably not willing to get another dose of that shalt not's in a fiction work. Could be one of the reasons Sci-Fi is so popular amongst LDS Youth. I believe there is a place for real life problems with real life people making real life mistakes and recovering and going to their Bishop or maybe a Stake H.C. Disciplinary action to get things set right. It might motivate some who fear such events to repent and get on with their lives. Many do not realize the love and growth that can come from doing just that. I have sat on enough of them to see great things happen to individuals and eventually families because of real life repentance. So why not write about it, in an encouraging manner. And I see nothing wrong with a character who refuses to repent and is excommunicated and moves on with his/her life in an otherwise positive manner. It is ok to do that. God gave us our free agency for a purpose. What we do with it, with the exception of taking life or property from someone else, is up to us. As for those lucky ones [maybe unlucky actually] who are Born to Temple wed parents, who get FHE, Scripture Study, eat it all up, no temptations to worry about, just do it all right. Well we should sprinkle some of them in there too. They may actually be the fictional characters in the first place. As someone once said. "Church is for the perfecting of the Saints, not for the Perfect Saints." I haven't personally talked to anyone that I felt was close to being translated in the near future. So if we write and we feel the need to say something that indicates the character has a flaw or two, or none at all, then that IMO is what should be written. Craig Huls - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "helena.chester" Subject: RE: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 11 Aug 2001 05:43:39 +1000 -----Original Message----- Having not read a lot (if any) of this type of fiction, I have a question: does Weyland (or someone else) ever write stories where it's a non-member guy who falls for a Mormon girl and converts, or is it always a male RM continuing his missionary work after returning home? If the latter, does anyone have any ideas why the other version is not used? --Ronn! :) I've personally experienced both situations happening to friends. And in both cases, I was the one who introduced them to each other. (Just call me Yenta, the matchmaker). The first case was a very devout SDA lady, and a Methodist widower who I met at a combined churches choir practice. He was not interested in becoming an SDA when I first met him, but he and my friend really got on well and planned to marry. Without telling her, he arranged a baptism and surprised her the week before the wedding, with his baptism at the SDA church. They have been happily married and united in their faith for about 17 years now. The other situation was a devout LDS guy and a Catholic lady. I introduced them and they really liked each other. She became a Mormon because she realised that he would not even consider someone who wasn't a Mormon, as a partner. That situation is still working itself out, but they are both glad I introduced them. Now, anyone else out there need my services! [Helena Chester] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: RE: [AML] Medved's Arguments Date: 10 Aug 2001 12:10:29 -0600 ---Original Message From: Terry L Jeffress > > If rated G really rocks like these people claim, why isn't Don Bluth a > > household name? Titan AE (the last movie I know about from Don > > Bluth) is an awesome movie. But my understanding is that it lost > > money (again, who knows? But supposedly, Don Bluth has said he lost > > money, though I can't remember where I read that--supposedly he'd > > know). > > Your example does not fit your own criteria. _Titan A.E._ > got a PG rating for action violence, mild sensuality, and > brief language. Ah. I wasn't aware of that. Makes sense, I guess. But that just pushes my point back a bit. If Don Bluth's G movies were so profitable, why move to a PG? Though I suppose having (reportedly) lost money on Titan A.E. might be a point against me. Still, all the movement I see is going *away* from G movies, even by people who are successful in that genre. If they are so profitable, why isn't the movement the other direction? I can think of a number of reasons, with Medved's argument that it is due to Hollywood being evil as one of the least likely. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rich Hammett Subject: Re: [AML] Fw: MN New AP Stylebook Still Recommends "Mormon Church" Date: 10 Aug 2001 12:13:44 -0500 (CDT) On Fri, 10 Aug 2001, aml-list-digest wrote: > Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 13:01:53 -0700 > From: "LauraMaery (Gold) Post" > Subject: [AML] Fw: MN New AP Stylebook Still Recommends "Mormon Church" > > >There is a church called The Church of Christ so calling our church The > >Church of Jesus Christ would be confusing for alot of people. > > "A lot" would seem to be a serious overstatement of the case. There are a > handful of small independent churches that use the name, and another > handful of Mormon schismatic groups that use the name. All told, there is a > grand total of probably fewer than a couple thousand people belonging to > churches that use the name. And those 20-some small churches probably don't > even know about -- let alone interact with -- one another. > > I hope I'm not misunderstanding what you say here (I missed the original post), but if you are saying that there are only a couple of thousand people who belong to a church called "Church of Christ," you're wrong. I live in the heart of CoC territory, and there are tens of thousands of members in north Alabama alone. Also, a quick check of the link you provided http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#families shows that Churches of Christ are the next largest denomination behind LDS (in the USA), with 1.6 million adult adherents (on a list which shows LDS with 2.5 million adult adherents). So, I think that it is a measurable group, at least. Of course, they complicate things by refusing to be known as a "denomination", not recognizing any organization above the level of the local church. rich -- Rich Hammett http://home.hiwaay.net/~rhammett rhammett@hiwaay.net The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. --GBS - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cathy Wilson" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Monasticism Date: 10 Aug 2001 11:10:28 -0600 Re homeschooled kids as William Morris asked: My first five kids were homeschooled and the last four not. Of course, I responded to their re-entry differently than they did. They went into public school as young teenagers extremely bright and academic whizzes, and they had a lot of friends instantly. I thought it was a great success. They however felt that they were always second-class citizens because they hadn't been part of the gang all the time. However now, grown up and functioning in the real world, they bless my name ;) because their intellectual and experiential skills have allowed them to excel in a real world that rewards skill and good thinking--most of the time anyway :). Cathy (Gileadi) Wilson Editing Etc. 1400 West 2060 North Helper UT 84526 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 10 Aug 2001 10:47:42 -0600 All of Weylands characters speak in "clever" dialogue, too, much like what you hear on some TV sitcoms. Read only the dialogue in a Weyland novel and you'd swear it was the same person thoughout. Thom \ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Editing Literature Date: 10 Aug 2001 10:56:13 -0600 Chris Grant wrote: >Even if we accept the hypothesis, must the conclusion follow? >After all, I can believe, with C.S. Lewis, that pain is used >by God as a "megaphone to rouse a deaf world" without being >obligated by that belief not to try to avoid certain painful >experiences, can't I? > Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith, to name a few, had no qualms to tell it like they saw it. Sometimes they were kind, sometimes they were rather harsh. I see that as a sign that either method can be a workable solution based on the audience your talking too. If you're talking to Whited Sepulchres in Dead Mean's Bones, it would seem perfectly acceptable to be pretty harsh. If you're audience is the disenfranchised (e.g., the Woman at the Well), maybe you would cast your work in a more kindly tone. Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: RE: [AML] Medved's Arguments Date: 10 Aug 2001 14:41:57 -0600 ---Original Message From: Eric R. Samuelsen > But of course this is true. All artists do this. That's the > fun thing about being an artist; you get to dramatize your > life, your concerns, your issues. I mean, that's topic A on > this list, right? How do we as LDS artists get our concerns, > lives, issues out there. And what's this 'real world' thing anyway? Um. That was kind of my point. And the 'real world' was my little dig at my own point of view. Subtlety just doesn't do well in a written format. > >Or that a successful professional can light up > >a joint in the middle of a session with no other affect on the > >character (seriously, a 50 plus year old professional woman tokes up > >like it's no big deal and she's not spacey or furtive or any other > >indication of what that would mean for the character? C'mon.)? It > >bugs me. > > I had bosses who did that. I used to manage a restuarant in a > big national chain, and the VP who came to visit us used to > toke up with us. (Not with me, of course, but you know what > I mean.) I'm not just referring to bosses. I'm referring to professionals who have to support their own practices based on their own achievements. Specifically, I'm referring to the Bette Midler character in "What Women Want". She plays a successful psychiatrist. I can believe a big chain restaurant manager might toke up (my manager at, um, a national chain restaurant, used to as well--come to think of it, he was the franchise owner) without having to account for it too much in the character. I just balk when a professional psychiatrist with a lavish office tokes up without affecting any other aspect of her character. An obviously successful *psychiatrist* casually, even gleefully, takes a mind altering (I hate the neutrality of that word--it should be mind dampening, or maybe just "it makes you stupid") drug without *any* supporting or clarifying character elements. Riiiiiiiight. In a professional practice, you sink or swim based on your work alone. You can't push responsibilities off on subordinates. > >And even Disney is busy trying to branch out into R-rated movies > >(through subsidiaries). > > Touchstone isn't a subsidiary; it's part of Disney. It's > just another label. Disney doesn't want to branch out into > R-rated movies; it just wants to make movies, like any studio. Well, my point is that they support the Touchstone label at all instead of beefing up the Disney releases. If G movies were the guaranteed hits implied by Medved I would expect Disney to drain resources from Touchstone in order to maximize their Disney profits. Like you said, they know which films are successful and they know that some of their films are stinkers. I agree with you about your other points about Disney enough that I just clipped them. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Irreantum2@cs.com Subject: [AML] Irreantum fiction contest winners Date: 13 Aug 2001 13:33:27 EDT The Association for Mormon Letters is pleased to announce the winners of the first annual Irreantum fiction contest: First prize ($100) goes to Darlene Young for her short story "Companions." According to contest judge Tory Anderson, the story "is a sensitive piece exploring the lives of two young visiting teaching companions. This story explores the distance that exists between human beings in the face of all that tries to bring two people close, such as marriage, wards, or being companions in teaching the gospel. 'Companions' also explores the sources of hope that exist to keep people searching for a way to close that distance." Second place ($75) goes to Sam Brunson for his short story "Tony Gwynn International." This story "deals with a stolen dog named Bob and kissing a smoker. It's a fast-moving story in a fast-moving setting that explores unusual situations with charm. In spite of the fast pace and the unusual situations, 'Tony Gwynn International' subtly keeps its ties to the Mormon culture, perhaps in ways that are not wholly unusual in this day and age." Third place ($50) goes to Karen Rosenbaum for her short story "Price." This story "explores the Mormon culture from what some would call off center. In this story you have faithful Mormon women who have not married faithful Mormon men. 'Price' explores, among other things, happiness and how it can exist where some may think it shouldn't." All three winning entries will be published soon in the quarterly literary magazine IRREANTUM, and next year's contest will be announced next spring with a probable entry deadline of July 31, 2002. Judge Tory Anderson writes, "The entries in the first annual Irreantum fiction writing contest revealed both the ties that keep the Mormon culture intact and the differences that keep the culture healthy. Next year we look forward to double the entries to get an even broader and more in-depth look at the Mormon culture." For a sample copy of Irreantum's current issue, send $4 to the address below. For a one-year subscription to Irreantum (4 issues), send $12. To join the nonprofit Association for Mormon Letters, send $20 annual dues (includes Irreantum subscription, a copy of the book-length AML Annual, and discounts to AML events). Make checks payable to AML and mail to AML, P.O. Box 51364, Provo, UT 84605-1364. To join the free AML-List e-mail discussion, send an e-mail message to majordomo@xmission.com that reads: subscribe aml-list. If you have any questions about anything related to the AML, see our website at www.xmission.com/~aml or e-mail us at irreantum2@cs.com. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: RE: [AML] Mormon Monasticism Date: 10 Aug 2001 12:58:03 -0600 ---Original Message From: William Morris > This is stretching the definition a bit, but I think > that home schooling is a 'monastic' step that many > Mormons have adopted. I don't know enough > home-schooled children or adults to express how this > phenomenon might be treated in literature, but I would > imagine the interesting thing to explore would be what > happens when home-schooled kids step out in to a > setting where they experience cultural attitudes that > are different from their own. > > Now I'm sure that not all those who are home-schooled > are sheltered innocents, but I would imagine that, for > some, the transition (whether that be a transition to > high school, college, or the workforce) to that new > setting is an intense experience. I don't think that Home Schooling is a particularly LDS tradition (it is becoming a Religious Fundamentalist tradition which may or may not lie at the root of LDS motivation to Home School). Even if it were an LDS tradition, I think the monastic problem with Home Schooling is the same as the problem with missionary life in that people don't Home School in order to meditate on the divine, seeking spiritual enlightenment. My understanding of the monastic tradition is that it is a pursuit for the single adult. Any exterior entanglements outside of religious devotion and prayer are strenuously excised, particularly familial obligations of children and/or spouse (with sex being a *huge* bugaboo to the truly devoted monastic). Which might provide another reason why Mormons are so non-monastic--our emphasis on the importance of the family prevents a single-minded individual pursuit of enlightenment. I've heard Elder Packer quoted as saying that RMs need to actively seek marriage and that "the destiny of the church is at stake" if they won't. Similar to the quote attributed to Brigham Young that any man who is still single at age 26 is a menace to society. That kind of nixes any monastic potential until family is no longer a concern--i.e. with our older members. Back to Home Schooling. One of the biggest mis-perceptions of Home Schooling is this whole isolation thing. As a parent who decided to Home School their children, I'll tell you that my kids are far from isolated and won't experience any shock whatsoever when they experience attitudes different from their own (disclaimer: *some* people Home School in order to isolate their children, but they are like Mormons who write GAs to get people excommunicated--they are a small, vocal population given more importance than they deserve). My children will handle the transition from child to adult a whole lot better than kids who have been told all their lives that they can feel good about themselves without actually having to do anything to earn it. Transitions are always intense experiences and none more intense that moving from child to adult. Preparing children for that transition is the key role of a parent. How that is achieved *should* vary from family to family, and care should be taken when evaluating the choice of others. Obviously I'm being sensitive here, but labeling Home Schooling families monastic or even isolated is inaccurate at best. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MGA Subject: [AML] Definitions of Art (was: Editing Literature) Date: 10 Aug 2001 12:35:18 -0600 I don't accept the statement that the purpose of art is to "afflict the comfortable"--though, art may indeed do this. This statement is based on a supposed ethic that "comfort" is somehow inherently linked to what is "unethical." (Indeed, comfort MAY be unethical in certain conditions, but certainly not by it's nature.) This entire concept can in no way be logically linked to a DEFINITON of art. I would define "art" as a concrete (be it a literary work, musical composition, painting, sculpture, etc.) that embodies one or more abstractions. A person by reading, seeing or hearing this concrete is able to better understand very abstractions. In short, art is that which allows one to experience abstractions as if they were perceptions. A work cannot be labeled art merely on the basis of the abstractions it attempts to convey. (Do to so, would be to confuse art with pure propaganda. The entire concept of art would then be reduced to the realm of the purely subjective, thus destroying altogether the basis of any objective understanding of the topic.) This being the case, issues of "comfort" or "discomfort," "challenging" or "not challenging" are completely mote in arriving at a DEFINITON of art. ROB LAUER - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: Re: [AML] Editing Literature Date: 10 Aug 2001 11:54:19 -0600 On Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 09:45:44AM -0600, John Williams wrote: > So, to get back to the topic at hand, I will restate my assertion > that objections to edited literature or movies on the basis of > "artistic integrity" are inherently flawed because there can be no > valid, objective, or reliable notion of artistic integrity in the > first place. I could agree that we could find no universal definition of artistic integrity, if by "valid, objective, or reliable notion" you mean some sort of universal definition of artistic integrity that everyone agrees to. But if you require a universal definition of anything, you will always have to abandon your attempt because universal agreement among humans about any topic will never happen. Lets look at this line of reasoning: 1. Can we classify object A as art? 2. Before we can classify an object as art, we must establish a valid, objective, and reliable definition of art. 3. We have yet to establish a definition of art that meets the requirements of 2. 4. We probably never will establish a definition of art. 5. Therefore, not only can we not classify object A as art, but we cannot as of now call anything art. I think almost everyone would agree that art exists and that for each of us there exists a set of object that we consider art. I doubt that any two people have corresponding sets of art -- that in every case of an object you consider art, you can find a person who would exclude that object from the set art. But in spite of our inability to establish a universal definition of art, we still can have conversations about art. In spite of not having a universal definition of "Mormon literature," we still have lively and interesting discussions about it. I guess you could consider all these discussions flawed, because a reliable definition does not exist as the foundation of the discussion, but where does that leave us? Do we abandon our discussion? No, we discuss these issues because for each of us, art plays an important role in our lives. Sure, we occasionally butt heads, and we often realize that we disagree because our definitions differ. Two weeks ago, I hadn't ever considered that some people would exclude illustration from the category of art. Now I have some new definitions in my head, and I find that my definitions don't match those of any of the participants in that thread, even though they introduced the idea in the first place. But I must also object because your argument invalidates millions of valid definitions of artistic integrity. Each individual that has an opinion about artistic integrity has a valid definition. If someone objects to editing literature or movies for reasons of artistic integrity, what better reason could that person have? You and I might disagree with that person's opinion, but can we really tell that person that he has a flawed argument because we don't agree with his definition of artistic integrity? I started discussing copyright issues because only in copyright law do we have a codified set of rules about the integrity of a creative work. The law establishes that the right to reproduce a work and to make derivatives of that work belong solely to the creator. From that point of view, we do have a reliable notion of artistic integrity. We have definitions and precedents that help us determine how our society has decided we should behave toward art. Personally, I have some serious issues with current copyright law, but the law still gives us a universal platform from which to have a discussion. And after all that, I have to say that in the end my objections to editing books and movies have nothing to do with artistic integrity. I don't object to people editing books or films for their own purposes, but I would object if someone tried to convince me that I should watch (or pay for) an edited version over the original. I guess it comes down to my ability to choose my own vice and sins. I came to earth to make my own decisions about right and wrong, and I want the freedom to decide if I truly do object to a scene or not. As I have expressed in the past, I believe that the sin exists in the mind of the beholder. Certainly for some people seeing the image of a naked person in a non-sexual context will cause those people to have improper thoughts, and those people should recognize this trait in themselves and avoid those situations whenever possible. On the other hand, many people can look at the image of a naked person without any improper or sinful thoughts. I really do believe that just like art, you cannot come up with a universal list of sins, except to say that sin distances a person from God. For me, an Adam Sandler movie does more to distance me from God than any scene in _Titanic_. I do my best to avoid Sandler's films because I literally feel like the spirit just abandons me if I watch one. Most of you can probably watch Sandler films with no effect on your eternal progression. I also look at editing books and movies as some sort of justification -- trying to make something pure out of something impure. Sure, we spend our entire lives trying to rid ourselves of the impure, but I don't think you can apply the same process to a book or movie. Even if you remove the "impure" scenes, those scenes still exist and we end up making excuses: "Well, I liked _Titanic_, but I would only watch it after someone took out those naughty scenes." (Hey, what about the guy that had to watch those scenes in order to take them out?) So many books and movies exist, that it seems to me that we can just as easily turn to another work rather than spending so much time trying to purify one that we find unwholesome. -- Terry L Jeffress | A creative writer must study carefully | the works of his rivals, including the | Almighty. -- Vladimir Nabokov - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tom Johnson" Subject: [AML] Matt TORONTO, _Mysterious Ways_ Reading Date: 14 Aug 2001 01:30:36 -0400 I thought I would tell you about the reading (which seemed nearly the performance itself) of Matt Toronto's play "Mysterious Ways" last week in Greenich Village. To explain too much of the missionary plot would take away the power of the play, so I won't say much. The plot is this: The investigator is both an athiest and gay. One missionary is nearly returning home, and his companion is just starting out. The one returning home is the conventional missionary figure, replete with the common counterarguments to the common investigator concerns regarding the existence of evil & suffering in the world, disbelief in God, and why the angel took back the plates, etc. Act I begins with the typical back and forth one might expect in such a heated missionary discussion. Neither side wins, and actually the investigator pretty much stumps the veteran missionary when he [the investigator] explains the rush of warmth and peace he received upon embracing his gay lifestyle. Act II is where the fireworks begin. The new missionary, who up to this point has been silent and antagonistic towards all participation in the discussion, probes the investigator's childhood to discover why the investigator is so antagonistic towards praying to God, and why he ranaway at age thirteen (the investigator ran away). At this point if I explain more of the plot, the play will be semi-ruined by those desiring to see it, so I will cut short my plot summary and enter the review stage of my commentary. Surprise endings are powerful in the moment, but do not always leave much of a lingering psychological impact. What we mostly remember is the story in full. Excuse the comparison, but the play reminded me of watching *The Sixth Sense*. In that film, we find out in the last five minutes that Bruce Willis has been "dead" the entire time, not really alive and interacting as we assumed. Does *The Sixth Sense* depend on the withholding of that crucial information in order to deliver the impact of the story, or can the story survive by letting the audience in on the information but not the characters (i.e., dramatic irony)? That's my question for Toronto's play. I think the better stories are the latter, though I'm not completely wed to the idea. Subtracting this qualm of mine with the play, the story is quite touching, and though perhaps manipulative (in the controversial way that word has been discussed on this list), in the end I did shed a tear from my hard, hard heart. And Toronto also managed to sidestep--through the crucial information that was withheld--all the polemics he had created in the first act, even such that the gay issue, though unresolved, was no longer really important. By now if you're still reading you're probably wondering what in the hell could be such a surpriser that would do all of this. Well...I think I'll smugly keep that info to myself, though if anyone really wants to know I'll tell them (see how juvenile that seems?). Overall, though I'm not much of a play-goer, I think Toronto is quite an emerging young actor and playwright who is full of energy and talent. Tom Johnson - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: RE: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 14 Aug 2001 00:04:52 -0500 >-----Original Message----- > >Having not read a lot (if any) of this type of fiction, I have a >question: does Weyland (or someone else) ever write stories where it's >a non-member guy who falls for a Mormon girl and converts, or is it >always a male RM continuing his missionary work after returning home? >If the latter, does anyone have any ideas why the other version is not >used? > >--Ronn! :) At 02:43 PM 8/10/01, Helena Chester wrote: >I've personally experienced both situations happening to friends. Yes, I'm aware of cases in real life, too. That wasn't what I was asking about. (Probably my fault for not being clear, not yours.) The Jack Weyland stories everyone has been talking about all seem to follow the formula of having a non-member girl fall for a stereotypical LDS guy and convert to marry him. I was asking if Weyland or anyone else has ever written about the reverse (nonmember guy meets Molly Mormon and converts to marry her), because I don't think anyone as yet has mentioned a story with _that_ plot. If not, does anyone have a guess why the one formula sells _as fiction_ and the other doesn't? --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: [AML] _Titan AE_ (was: Medved's Arguments) Date: 14 Aug 2001 00:13:29 -0600 ---Original Message From: Ivan Angus Wolfe > > On Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 09:49:33PM -0600, Jacob Proffitt wrote: > > > If rated G really rocks like these people claim, why=20 > isn't Don Bluth=20 > > > a household name? Titan AE (the last movie I know about from Don > > > Bluth) is an awesome movie. >=20 > I have to take you upon that - It was a horrid pile of SF=20 > cliches. Not one original idea, line of dialouge or creative=20 > thought went into it. My wife and I made a game of figuring=20 > out where we had heard those lines before - every line in the=20 > movie except for one has probably been in at least a dozen=20 > other SF flicks - most of then low grade ones that show up on=20 > MST3K (Mystery Science Theatre 3000) - in fact, Titan AE is=20 > perfect MST3K fodder. It was awful - I couldn't find=20 > anything original or redeeming in it. My wife hated it even=20 > more. (I'd say we actually considered suing Don Bluth for the=20 > 90 minutes of our life we want back - but we decided it was=20 > our fault - we had been warned by others). SF as a genre is barely large enough to have clich=E9s at all, let alone enough to put together a whole movie. And might I suggest that if you watch SF for the dialogue that you redirect your efforts? Titan A.E. was a bildungsroman that tied internal discovery to external exploration. That story has been done to death in every genre so I suppose if you wanted to find clich=E9s there, you probably weren't disappointed. I watched Titan A.E and was delighted by the action, the growth of the hero as he found his purpose and grappled with his abandonment, the interesting alien cultures (the psychic birds were just cool in their role as oracular guides and discovering the motivations and abilities of the bad guys was interesting in lots of ways), did I mention the action?, and the twist at the end where sacrifice brings redemption (clich=E9d, but what a clich=E9) and the actions of the bad = guys are used to destroy them in the act of creation they had tried so hard to prevent. Not exactly original ideas, any of them, but then, how many original ideas are there, anyway and they hardly qualify as clich=E9. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: RE: [AML] Medved's Arguments Date: 14 Aug 2001 00:59:41 -0600 ---Original Message From: D. Michael Martindale > Jacob Proffitt wrote: > > > Movies I *have* seen with U.S. Presidents? "Dave", "Dick", > "Wag the > > Dog", "Contact", and, um, I'm drawing a blank here. Truthfully, my > > comment was probably just an example of my continuing disgust with > > "Dave" and Barbara Streisand. > > What was so bad about "Dave"? I thought it was a rather sweet > movie that had little politics in it. The politics that did > exist were there as window dressing, not part of the main > plot or of any agenda. The fact that window dressing politics > from Hollywood would turn out to be Democratic isn't terriby > surprising. But I didn't get any sense of agenda in the movie. Though politics weren't central to "Dave", every time they *did* enter, they were not only liberal, they were treated as the only possible alternative for clear-thinking, compassionate people. Most people I know who saw the movie weren't bugged by it, but I was. The characters were charming and sensitive and I liked them and the story. Which only served to heighten my disappointment when it is treated as a given that they would, of course, make liberal choices once they understood the situation. > The blank you're drawing must certainly include "American > President," which was clearly agenda-laden and caustically > anti-conservative. I never watched it because I heard about > it, then when I had a chance to see it on satellite TV, just > happened to come in on that infamous speech scene. After > being exposed to that, I knew that watching the film would > raise my blood pressure to unhealthy levels, so I never > bothered, ignoring how nice the story may have been. Nah. I never saw that one because I didn't want to risk popping a vein. > > How many of you can name *a* conservative actor, director > or producer? > > Now at this point, aren't we supposed to bring up Arnold > Schwarzenegger, Bruce Willis, and Charlton Heston? Don't forget Kurt Russell. But you cut my second sentence where even if you can name conservatives, I'll bet you can name more liberals by a 3 to 1 ratio. You got three conservatives, I'll bet you can name nine liberals if you gave it enough thought. I can name twelve for the four conservatives named so far (Forgive any misspellings: Rosie O'Donnell, Ben Afflek, Matt Damon, Jodie Foster, Barbara Streisand, Gwyneth Paltrow, George Takei, Oprah, Tom Hanks, Dannie Glover, Leonardo DiCaprio, and Steven Spielberg). Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Irreantum fiction contest winners Date: 14 Aug 2001 01:57:29 -0600 Irreantum2@cs.com wrote: > > The Association for Mormon Letters is pleased to announce the winners of > the first annual Irreantum fiction contest: > First prize ($100) goes to Darlene Young for her short story > "Companions." Which story was critiqued by the fine members of WorLDSmiths online LDS writers group. Need I say more? -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Medved's Arguments Date: 14 Aug 2001 08:17:31 -0600 You know, I think this 'liberal' vs. 'conservative' thing gets pretty = tricky when it comes to texts as multi-layered as good movies, or even bad = movies can be. I'll try to do this and give it a Mormon lit application. Okay, there are a lot of prominent Hollywood liberals, and most positive = representations of a President show a Democrat in office, if politics is = important to the plot line. Granted. But let's take a look at one = specific issue and see how ideology plays itself out. Let's look at gun control. Very briefly, I would summarize the mainstream = 'liberal' or 'conservative' views as follows: Liberals tend to support gun = control, which is to say that liberals tend to think that restricting = private ownership of firearms will make our country a safer place. And = conservatives tend to believe that gun control is unconstitutional, and = that laws restricting the private ownership of firearms will only serve to = disarm law-abiding citizens, leaving all firearms in the hands of = criminals. (If I've misstated either position, I apologize.) Underlying = these two positions are certain assumptions, including a basic attitude = about guns generally. And so Hollywood, being liberal, can be expected to = be pro gun control, and indeed, in The Candidate, the Joan Allen character = (who is clearly intended to be heroic) has a long speech where she = outlines her political positions, and she favors gun control unreservedly. So, liberal Hollywood is pro gun control, right? That's the ideology. = And so we're likely to see this whole flock of anti-gun movies, right? = Hah. In how many movies is heroism defined as 'having a greater proficiency = with firearms?" How many action movies show Our Hero picking up a gun and = blowing some bad 'uns away? How often is violence shown to be the answer = to a problem. How many movies glamorize pistol packin' outlaw lifestyles? = How many movies and television shows center on a weapon-bearing hero? = How many films show bad guys dying by the dozens while the hero gets = inconsequentially shot in the shoulder? Anti-gun? Hollywood? I see no = evidence for that whatsoever. =20 So are all those Hollywood lefties hypocrites? I wouldn't say that. I = would say instead that Hollywood is trying to tell exciting stories, and = that most of the best conflicts center on violence, and so, in a heavily = armed society, we're going to find violent stories told, and that means = lots of shooting. Again, I don't think anyone in Hollywood is trying to = corrupt anyone's morals. I don't think there is a Hollywood ideology or = agenda, except to make movies that will sell well and move people. But = looking at film today, I just think it's impossible to argue that, on this = issue at least, Hollywood is liberal at all. How does this relate to Mormon story-telling? We're part of several cultures, and the attitudes of those cultures are = impossible to escape, even when they conflict; especially when they = conflict. A few years ago, for example, at BYU, ballerinas could not wear = tutus, because they were deemed immodest. But a tutu is far more modest = than a cheerleader's uniform, and BYU cheerleaders dress like, well, = cheerleaders. That's culture talking: ballet is suspect, football's all = right, and if you're going to play football, you might as well have = cheerleaders, have a little sex with your violence. None of this has = anything to do with Mormonism, or the gospel, at all. These are simply = the attitudes of the Western part of the United States; they're Amurrican = attitudes, specific to a region and the culture of that region. Football = itself is pretty hard to defend, and yet there's a tremendous support for = football in the LDS community, including by me, who just bought my tickets = for the BYU opener. And I root for BYU with great passion, and deep in my = heart, dismay over my own hypocrisy. But I don't root for BYU to win at = football because I'm LDS. I root for them because my brothers and I = played football growing up, and went to as many games as we could, and = because it gives me something to talk to the other guys about at ward = picnics, and because, well, I grew up liking it and still do. But if I = were really committed to my religion, I suspect I'd feel a lot more = equivocal about a very violent and dangerous game than I do. So as Mormon artists living in the US, our work will reflect our cultures, = not our culture. And most of the time, where the cultures conflict, we = won't even notice. In a sense, we could say that we're all of us liberals = who love guns, Mormons who support football, Baptists who hate rock and = roll and dancing, except on Sundays, when the spirit moves us and we get = up and move, sway, to the beat and passion of electrified gospel music. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Grant Subject: Re: [AML] Editing Literature Date: 14 Aug 2001 09:13:16 -0600 Terry L Jeffress writes: [...] >I also look at editing books and movies as some sort of >justification -- trying to make something pure out of >something impure. I don't see anything intrinsically wrong with that. >Sure, we spend our entire lives trying to rid ourselves of >the impure, but I don't think you can apply the same process >to a book or movie. Certainly the process of editing is different from the process of repenting. That doesn't mean that the process of editing can't be effective. >Even if you remove the "impure" scenes, those scenes still >exist And they exist for the people who boycott the movie, as well. >and we end up making excuses: "Well, I liked _Titanic_, but I >would only watch it after someone took out those naughty >scenes." Not always. If we're far enough removed from the editing process, we might not even know what we should be making excuses for. >(Hey, what about the guy that had to watch those scenes in >order to take them out?) Well, what about the guy who had to watch those scenes in order to give you enough information to know that you would want to boycott the movie? (Or, for that matter, what about the policeman whom I ask to work on Sunday so that I can have a more peaceful Sabbath than I would if criminals were given carte blanche on that day?) >So many books and movies exist, that it seems to me that we >can just as easily turn to another work rather than spending >so much time trying to purify one that we find unwholesome. I don't think consumers of sanitized movies from places like Clean Flicks have to spend much time at all to get them. Chris Grant grant@math.byu.edu - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Editing Literature Date: 14 Aug 2001 09:34:39 -0600 Terry L Jeffress wrote: > Even > if you remove the "impure" scenes, those scenes still exist and we end > up making excuses: "Well, I liked _Titanic_, but I would only watch it > after someone took out those naughty scenes." _Titanic_ is 2 and a half hours long. The "sex" scenes that most people object to last a total of (and yes, I counted) 7 seconds. Seven seconds out of two and a half hours. Can you say, "straining at a gnat?" -- Thom Duncan Member-Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Bigelow Subject: RE: [AML] GA Interview for Irreantum Date: 14 Aug 2001 09:13:55 -0600 I'm sold on pursuing Elder Holland next for an Irreantum interview. I had no idea he had advanced English degree. (If that fails, next I'll pick a 1st Q of 70, I suppose, and continue trickling down the hierarchy.) I like the idea of consulting with Richard Cracroft about questions. Does anyone have his e-mail address or other contact info? I like the idea of interviewing Sheri Dew and am going to try that too. I also think I'd like to interview someone at Covenant, maybe Tyler Moulton or the fiction managing editor. AML-List is an invaluable sounding board. Thanks! Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Medved's Arguments Date: 14 Aug 2001 09:42:42 -0600 Jacob Proffitt wrote: >If they are so profitable, why isn't the movement the other > direction? I can think of a number of reasons, with Medved's argument > that it is due to Hollywood being evil as one of the least likely. Unless the film makers are entirely set on making money only, I suspect there's an underlying feeling that they want to create "art." And, by today's standards, "art" (the kinds of movies upon which critics tend to lavish praise) is PG-13 and R. The "G" rated film that can pass for good art nowadays are rare (_The Straight Story_ comes to mind and that probably wouldn't have got the kudos it did if it hadn't been directed by David Lynch, known for his weird, R-rated films mostly). Money is not the only thing that drives Hollywood. An Oscar on one's shelf pretty much guarantees that you'll be working the rest of your life. So you take it in the shorts financially for the shot at an Academy award. It's insurance. -- Thom Duncan Member-Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Medved's Arguments Date: 14 Aug 2001 09:54:23 -0600 D. Michael Martindale wrote: > Jacob Proffitt wrote: > > >>I haven't seen "Air Force One" so I probably shouldn't use "every" in >>any case. >> > > The "Air Force One" president was also pretty apolitical. But I heard > that Harrison Ford told Bill Clinton that he used him as his model for > playing the president. Personally, I don't see the connection at all. > Modeling the "Air Force One" president after Bill Clinton would be like > playing the Pope and modeling him after Larry Flint. Hmm, let's see. Ford and Clinton were about the same age. Both characters had teenage daughters. That's a pretty good connection. > "Wag the Dog" I haven't seen purely by accident. Just haven't gotten > around to it yet, even though I have a copy on tape at home. This movie could have been made by conspiracy theorists, who tend to be conservative. > "Contact" used Clinton simply because he was president at the time, and > not for any discernable political agenda that I could see. It was a brilliant editing job. In reality, he had been talking about the Mars rock that was initially thought to have evidence of life. To dovetail that into the plot of the film was very clever. > The blank you're drawing must certainly include "American President," > which was clearly agenda-laden and caustically anti-conservative. "Caustically?" It was a love story, for heaven's sake. -- Thom Duncan Member-Playwrights Circle an organization of professionals http://www.playwrightscircle.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gerald G Enos Subject: Re: [AML] Introductions: Paul Bishop Date: 14 Aug 2001 10:05:55 -0600 Ok, Bishop Bishop, Elders Meek and Humble, and Hooker and Virgin are alot funnier then my first DL companions name. He was Elder Bonzo but I heard it was really funny when he was with his next companion and the sisters wanted to find them in a store. They paged Major Bonzo. (Yes his companion was Elder Major.) Konnie Enos ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paris ANDERSON" Subject: Re: [AML] Introductions: Paul Bishop Date: 14 Aug 2001 10:18:16 -0600 I can beat that. I knew of a companionship made of Elder Hooker and = Elder Virgin! Annette Lyon My great-grampa's name was Hoare and he married a woman named Lovejoy. Paris Anderson - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: [AML] Listening to the Spirit (was: Morality and Art) Date: 14 Aug 2001 10:48:48 -0700 Eric Samuelsen 7/20/01: > Our reaction to any work of art, any piece of writing, is governed by > agency. I do not believe that are any books we shouldn't read. But > there are certainly books we shouldn't read in certain ways, with certain > intentions, with certain outcomes. Books can be an occasion for > temptation and sin, just like any conversation or letter or e-mail can be > an occasion for sin. Linda Adams, 23 Jul 2001: > On a personal note, I govern my choices for what to read and what to > see by the Spirit. This, of course, is the trump card. And ought to be. It's also the reason The White Stone Foundation--the ones who pass out pamphlets showing GBH with horns and TMM with 666 on his forehead--pickets each General Conference castigating the Church for condoning, yea promoting, abortion. What did he just say? The Spirit directs the White Stone Foundation to picket Conference? No. The Church's official position on abortion is to decry, but not prohibit. The Church recognizes that abortion may be necessary to save the mother's life on occasion. Members are very strongly encouraged to pray and discuss the issue with bishops and/or stake leaders before having an abortion. What that means, as someone wrote in Sunstone years ago is that, given the status of law, the Church's official position would equal abortion on demand. The article was part of a roundtable and I only read the pull-out quote (got diverted from reading the rest of the articles, go back to it some day, came out in the mid-80s I think) so I didn't get the reasoning behind it, but I've thought about it for a long time and the reason would likely be that the Church doesn't have an official Spirit Compliance Checker. We're not asked to get a revelation about it from the prophet or stake president, but directly from the Lord, and the Church doesn't doublecheck that decision, which is a tacit admission that, while the Church deplores abortion, the Lord might inspire someone to have one. Very troubling to people who find abortion absolutely evil. Note, I could have used the Church's statements about voting as an example of discourse on being guided by the Spirit, but I've been thinking about abortion as an issue because I recently finished a (bad) draft of a play about a missionary who spent the years just before his mission with a group of Jesus Freaks and former hippies turned pro-life activists. ("You know, when they shot Gary Gilmore, we were _there!_ We were outside the prison holding our candles. Most pro-life groups are for the death penalty. It’s hard for me to see the ethical consistency in that. That’s what I loved about these guys: against abortion, against the death penalty, _for_ Life.") This idea of seeking the Spirit's help in decisions has interesting implications in Mormon life, and its literary exploration. I served in an EQ presley-duncey in Skedaddle with a brilliant Ph.D. student in biostatistics (I know that's redundant, you have to be brilliant to go into biostats) who interviewed with the BYZ Math Dept. They told him that after careful consideration and much prayer they had been inspired to hire someone else. I had the same experience a few years later at Everyone-Comes-to-Rick's College, where my interview was not the beginning of a beautiful friendship (for many people Rick's is "the end of a beautiful friendship, and just the beginning of love"). The outgoing department head wrote and told me if it had been his decision alone he would have hired me, but the hiring committee had fasted and prayed about the decision, and made the right decision in hiring someone else. That kind of thing is fascinating to explore in a story, especially with all the questions it raises. "Am I not worthy? Not competent? Supposed to be at another school? Needed in another state? Another profession?" I can imagine a whole range of emotions at reading the 'Lord told us not to hire you.' > We are all individual. Let the Spirit guide you. It works. When I listen, I > haven't been disappointed. And on the occasions I stubbornly haven't > listened (I make NO claim to perfection :-} ) I've been sorry later > that I didn't. Yes. And I think we could generate some fine stories about all the complications of listening to the Spirit, especially when the Spirit tells two people opposite things because they have different capacities, as Linda mentioned in the snipped portion. Harlow S. (for StillTryingToCatchUp) Clark ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Morris Subject: RE: [AML] Mormon Monasticism Date: 14 Aug 2001 09:50:56 -0700 (PDT) --- Jacob Proffitt wrote: > ---Original Message From: William Morris > > This is stretching the definition a bit, but I > think > > that home schooling is a 'monastic' step that many > > Mormons have adopted. I don't know enough > > home-schooled children or adults to express how > this > > phenomenon might be treated in literature, but I > would > > imagine the interesting thing to explore would be > what > > happens when home-schooled kids step out in to a > > setting where they experience cultural attitudes > that > > are different from their own. > > > > Now I'm sure that not all those who are > home-schooled > > are sheltered innocents, but I would imagine that, > for > > some, the transition (whether that be a transition > to > > high school, college, or the workforce) to that > new > > setting is an intense experience. > Jacob Proffit writes: > > Back to Home Schooling. One of the biggest > mis-perceptions of Home > Schooling is this whole isolation thing. As a > parent who decided to > Home School their children, I'll tell you that my > kids are far from > isolated and won't experience any shock whatsoever > when they experience > attitudes different from their own (disclaimer: > *some* people Home > School in order to isolate their children, but they > are like Mormons who > write GAs to get people excommunicated--they are a > small, vocal > population given more importance than they deserve). > My children will > handle the transition from child to adult a whole > lot better than kids > who have been told all their lives that they can > feel good about > themselves without actually having to do anything to > earn it. > Transitions are always intense experiences and none > more intense that > moving from child to adult. Preparing children for > that transition is > the key role of a parent. How that is achieved > *should* vary from > family to family, and care should be taken when > evaluating the choice of > others. Obviously I'm being sensitive here, but > labeling Home Schooling > families monastic or even isolated is inaccurate at > best. > Just to be completely clear, so that no one thinks that I'm bashing home schoolers---in my original message above, I made it clear that I was on shaky ground with my assertions. I have no problem with Jacob objecting to the very idea of linking home schooling with monasticism or isolation---indeed since I work in education pr, I'm at least marginally familiar with scholarship that verifies Jacob's experience (and anticipation for the future of his children). Home schooling does not equal isolation, and I admit that I gave too much credence to that myth (which is popular in some circles) when I automatically linked the two. But the question remains for me if the two things (home schooling and monasticism) are at all related in a way that could be useful literarily-speaking. I think that the reason I linked the two is the idea that both can (not automatically do, but can) create a cloistered community. And in the case of some Mormon home schoolers, the reason to create the cloistered community is the same reason some Christians retreated to monastaries----to keep out the evils of the world. In other words, monastacism is not just an active meditation for enlightenement, but it is also a defensive move. For many Mormons, and many home schoolers in general, home schooling is not that kind of retreat---it is mainly a quality of education issue. However, there are some Mormon families who have a streak of fear in them, whose response to the evils and trials of our time is to attempt to shut the world out as much as and as long as possible [actually, I believe that we all share that fear to a certain extent, and we all try to counter that fear---it's just that our ways of doing so vary]. So what are the implications of taking this position? What are the thought patterns, the value judgements, the discourses that lead one to home school as a cloistering move, and is there anything uniquely Mormon there? Jonathan, in his original post, asks: "Is the monastic lifestyle something that has attraction for certain classes of people/types of personalities today? If so, what are those personality types or key characteristics?" Whether or not home schooling is even remotely related or not to the monastic lifestyle, I think that the same questions would be interesting to pursue in Mormon literature about Mormon home schoolers, especially because it is a non-mainstream choice that some people have attached stigmas to. I think what Jacob is saying is that to link monasticism and/or isolation to home schooling is to wrongly invoke those stigmas. I agree. I shouldn't have thrown it out there so casually. In my original post, I wrote: I > would > > imagine the interesting thing to explore would be > what > > happens when home-schooled kids step out in to a > > setting where they experience cultural attitudes > that > > are different from their own. I still think this is true, but it's not something that is limited to home-schooled children, is it? It all depends on the individual family. And it all depends on the nature of the new experience. The fish-out-of-water story can be written about any fish--you just make sure the fish isn't in the water and go from there. ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: [AML] Fw: MN Deseret News' Dean Photo Editing Makes Worldwide News: Editor & Date: 14 Aug 2001 18:01:19 -0400 Deseret News' Dean Photo Editing Makes Worldwide News SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH -- A single cigarette is world famous. In a recent edition of the Deseret News, owned by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, actor James Dean's photograph appeared without his customary cigarette. The manipulation violated newspaper policy against changing photographs, said managing editor Rick Hall and a clarification ran the following week, but news reports of the error have appeared in hundreds of newspapers around the world, even as far away as Malaysia, and, to the News' embarrassment, made the trade publication Editor & Publisher. The picture, which fills nearly a quarter of the front page of the August 3 Weekend section, accompanied a story on a television movie about Dean's life. Hall said he and editor John Hughes were concerned that the cigarette projecting from Dean's mouth into the story's text was too striking a focal point and asked the staff to do something about it, thinking they would find a tobacco-free photo. Either due to a misunderstanding or tight deadline, the photo was digitally altered. "Our policy is very firm. We don't mess around with the content of pictures, and this went against that. There's no two ways around that," Hall said. Source: 'Deseret News' Nixes Dean's Cigarette Editor & Publisher (AP) 10Aug01 B3 >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "mjames_laurel" Subject: Re: [AML] Introductions: Paul Bishop Date: 14 Aug 2001 22:42:56 -0600 Okay, I'm going to have to chime in with my favorite missionary twosome - Elder Crook and Elder Treasure. Late 1960's, New England Mission. Laurel Brady - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: [AML] Cliches in Science Fiction (was: _Titan AE_) Date: 15 Aug 2001 05:01:34 -0500 At 01:13 AM 8/14/01, Jacob Proffitt wrote: >SF as a genre is barely large enough to have clich=E9s at all, No? How about: (1) Two space travelers crash-land on a deserted planet, and in the very=20 last paragraph, we learn that their names are . . . . . . Adam= =20 and Eve. (2) The brave, handsome spaceship captain who flies around the Galaxy=20 righting wrongs (and romancing females of any species). (3) The time traveler who goes back in time to kill his own grandfather. (4) The time traveler who goes back in time to save President Kennedy from= =20 being assassinated. (Forty years ago, the exact same story, but with=20 President Lincoln.) (5) "The last man on Earth sat in a room alone. There was a knock at the= =20 door . . . " Anyone have any others to add? --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Willson" Subject: Re: [AML] Editing Literature Date: 14 Aug 2001 23:41:27 -0600 Terry L Jeffress writes: [...] >I also look at editing books and movies as some sort of >justification -- trying to make something pure out of >something impure. >Sure, we spend our entire lives trying to rid ourselves of >the impure, but I don't think you can apply the same process >to a book or movie. >Even if you remove the "impure" scenes, those scenes still >exist >and we end up making excuses: "Well, I liked _Titanic_, but I >would only watch it after someone took out those naughty >scenes." I think that purity or impurity is the same as beauty, it is in the eye o= f the beholder. What may be pure to me may be impure to you. The censorsh= ip or editing, if you will, takes place in our own brain, and we all have= a safety switch at the end of our arm called a hand which is fully capab= le of flipping the switch, changing the channel, or if worse comes to wor= se, pulling us up out of our seat and leaving. If we happen to be reading= , then we can simply skip over the offensive parts or stop reading. The D= evil can't force us to say, do, or think anything we do not consent to. Bill Willson - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: RE: [AML] Medved's Arguments Date: 15 Aug 2001 00:03:30 -0600 ---Original Message From: Thom Duncan > Jacob Proffitt wrote: > > >If they are so profitable, why isn't the movement the other > direction? > >I can think of a number of reasons, with Medved's argument > that it is > >due to Hollywood being evil as one of the least likely. > > Unless the film makers are entirely set on making money only, I suspect > there's an underlying feeling that they want to create "art." And, by > today's standards, "art" (the kinds of movies upon which critics tend to > lavish praise) is PG-13 and R. The "G" rated film that can pass for > good art nowadays are rare (_The Straight Story_ comes to mind and that > probably wouldn't have got the kudos it did if it hadn't been directed > by David Lynch, known for his weird, R-rated films mostly). > > Money is not the only thing that drives Hollywood. An Oscar on one's > shelf pretty much guarantees that you'll be working the rest of your > life. So you take it in the shorts financially for the shot at an > Academy award. It's insurance. Yes. My point exactly. The people in Hollywood are motivated by a lot of different things and I think that serving Satan (or even a war against decency as claimed by Medved) is probably one of the least common. Although, I think that your example of pursuit of an Oscar is really a slightly obscured instance of pursuit of financial gain. A studio benefits from an Oscar in ways that directly impact the pocket book (free marketing and extended shelf-life to name two). Interestingly, I think the (more accurate) perception that Hollywood is in blind pursuit of money is at the heart of much of our cultural conflict with regards to artists and affects LDS artists more than any hidden Hollywood agenda could. Since we disdain Hollywood and we know that blind pursuit of profit is immoral and wrong, we want assurance that our artists aren't, well, tainted. Since pursuit of money leads to Hollywood's excesses, we want to make sure that those forces won't taint our LDS literature. At least, this might be an explanation for why we hold our artists to higher standards than we hold the rest of our entertainment. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: RE: [AML] Mormon Monasticism Date: 15 Aug 2001 05:12:02 -0500 At 11:50 AM 8/14/01, William Morris wrote: > > >In my original post, I wrote: > >I > > would > > > imagine the interesting thing to explore would be > > what > > > happens when home-schooled kids step out in to a > > > setting where they experience cultural attitudes > > that > > > are different from their own. [From a conservative LDS home-schooler on another list:] Home schooler: We are teaching our children at home. They have never been to public school. Skeptical neighbor: I'm not sure that is a good idea. What about their socialization? Home schooler: Oh, that's no problem. We've got a plan to take care of that. Skeptical neighbor: What's that? Home schooler: Every couple of weeks I take my boy into the bathroom, beat the snot out of him, and steal his lunch money. [MOD: Please note that this is not a slam on home schoolers, but on the public school system. No home schooling children were actually abused during the making of this joke...] --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] _Titan AE_ Date: 15 Aug 2001 01:34:07 -0600 Jacob Proffitt wrote: > SF as a genre is barely large enough to have clich=E9s at all, let alon= e > enough to put together a whole movie. I'm surprised at you, Jacob. I thought you and Melissa were SF fans. Science fiction is riddled with cliches. There's a whole website with a long, detailed list of science fiction cliches (http://enphilistor.users4.50megs.com/cliche.htm). The sub-subgenre Star Trek has developed cliches of its own. They have a big board in one of their story development rooms at Paramount studios filled with Star Trek cliches that spec scripts keep dredging up over and over again. Brent Spiner (Data) once suggested a story idea, and was marched in humiliation to the Star Trek cliche board where he personally marked another notch under the idea he suggested (a photograph was taken of the event). Science fiction is lousy with cliches. On the other hand, the cliches in Titan A.E. never bothered me. They were implemented in an original enough fashion that I thought the movie worked--not as a great movie, but as a pleasantly entertaining one. I even went in expecting to be bothered by a bunch of cliches from a review I read, but it didn't happen. If there was anything about the movie that bothered me, it was that the male protagonist's bare butt was shown, but when an equally plausible opportunity came along to show the female protagonist's bare butt, she was kept conveniently covered. Whatever happened to equality in the sexes? Why is a man's bare butt a joke, but a woman's bare butt would be a scandal, even if both circumstances are equally innocent? --=20 D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths=20 Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "LauraMaery (Gold) Post" Subject: [AML] Re: Name of the Church Date: 15 Aug 2001 01:10:44 -0700 >I hope I'm not misunderstanding what you say here (I missed the original >post), but if you are saying that there are only a couple of thousand >people who belong to a church called "Church of Christ," you're wrong. I >live in the heart of CoC territory, and there are tens of thousands of >members in north Alabama alone. Actually, I said (or at least, intended to say) "Church of Jesus Christ," the name the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has asked news organizations to use on second reference. "That which we call a rose..." --lmg --------- WHAT DO WE DO? We homeschool! Here's how: "Homeschool Your Child for Free." Order your copy today, from Amazon.com. --------- . - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Fw: MN Deseret News' Dean Photo Editing Makes Worldwide News: Date: 15 Aug 2001 02:06:46 -0600 > Deseret News' Dean Photo Editing Makes Worldwide News > The picture, which fills nearly a quarter of the front page of the August 3 > Weekend section, accompanied a story on a television movie about Dean's > life. Hall said he and editor John Hughes were concerned that the cigarette > projecting from Dean's mouth into the story's text was too striking a focal > point and asked the staff to do something about it, thinking they would find > a tobacco-free photo. Either due to a misunderstanding or tight deadline, > the photo was digitally altered. "Our policy is very firm. We don't mess > around with the content of pictures, and this went against that. There's no > two ways around that," Hall said. Bean-counting morality comes back to bite the counters in the butt. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Darlene Young Subject: Re: [AML] Irreantum fiction contest winners Date: 15 Aug 2001 06:24:10 -0700 (PDT) DMichael said, "> Which story was critiqued by the fine members of > WorLDSmiths online LDS > writers group. Need I say more?" Yes, many thanks go to the members of Worldsmiths for their help. Actually, the contest has made me so very grateful to be a part of this online community. I was so excited to read the announcement yesterday and I've been telling everyone (bragging shamelessly) but, alas, the people around me are not readers and writers and, when I'm looking for congratulations, they smile indulgently and say they are glad I'm enjoying my "little hobby." I appreciate so much the chance to turn on the computer and feel like I'm among friends who understand me. Thanks, AML! ===== Darlene Young __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: [AML] Home Schooling (was: Mormon Monasticism) Date: 15 Aug 2001 10:11:11 -0600 (MDT) [MOD: Let me preemptively point out that the entire discussion for this list should not (and won't be allowed to become) a discussion of the pros and cons of home schooling. What *is* appropriate to discuss, as everyone so far (including Ivan) has done, is what the Mormon home schooling experience is like, together with (versus?) how it is perceived, both within the Mormon community and in the larger American community. In other words, how we as readers and writers might want to consider it as we write/read about it. So far, I think the discussion's been pretty good that way. Let's all keep the focus on this literary aspect.] > Jacob Proffit writes: > > > Back to Home Schooling. One of the biggest > mis-perceptions of Home Schooling is this whole isolation thing. As a parent who decided to Home School their children, I'll tell you that my kids are far from isolated and won't experience any shock whatsoever when they experienceattitudes different from their own (disclaimer: *some* people HomeSchool in order to isolate their children, but they > are like Mormons who write GAs to get people > excommunicated--they are a small, vocal > population given more importance than they deserve). And it's far too often that this vocal minority shapes our views. I was home schooled for a year and hated it - my brother was home schooled for three years and loved it. None of my sisters even wanted to try it. I think it all depends on the kid in question. However - there were two other families in our ward who home schooled their children and woudl routinely get up in testimony meeting to talk about how more spirtual their kids were than teh rest of us whe were being tutored by the Satan run Public education system. If I ever talked about what was going on at school with on of their kids who was my age - they would shake their heads and tell me I was in teh devil's camp. Of course, both families eventually were arrested as income-tax evaders and have since moved on - no one is sure where - to go live off the land. I beleive they are still holed up, conviced that the Y2K bug will strike anytime soon - so they aren't the best representatives of home schoolers - unfortunately, they have colored my entire wards view of home schooling. --ivan wolfe - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: [AML] re: _Titan AE_ Date: 15 Aug 2001 10:00:23 -0600 (MDT) Jacob Proffitt wrote: > SF as a genre is barely large enough to have cliche=E9s at all, > > let alone enough to put together a whole movie. I'd have to take you up on that - SF as a genre is so large that much of it is composed of cliches. The worst writers use the same tropes over and over - make use of the same ideas, etc. Even the best of writers fall into it - With Arthur C. Clarke (one of the greats), his last solo written works (Such as Songs of Distant Earth and Hammer of God) began to descend into cliches about Religion. Clarke feels there is a God, but that current Earths religions are dangerous - and over and over and over again mentions how much better society would be without it (he goes so far as to advocate censorship of anything related to religion if Songs of Distant Earth). For his later works (his earlier ones were much more ambiguous about it) religion is bad became a cliche. Orson Scott Card purposely created "buggers" (bug eyed monsters) as his "villains" in Ender's Game because of the SF cliches of Bug Eyed aliens. Another SF cliche - the brilliant scientist either has an assistant of meets an interested outsider who has no knowledge of the science involved in this brilliant device/theory/undertaking. So of course, the scientist has to spend time describing and explaining it to him. I could go on. Stephen King advocates that writers who aspire to write SF should read lots of it so they can be familiar with and avoid the numerous cliches the genre has spawned (in his Book "On Writing"). > And might I suggest that if you > watch SF for the dialogue that you redirect your efforts? No I don't watch for dialogue. But when I'm fifteen minutes into a movie and realize that I've heard every line so far in at least a dozen other places, met all of the character types (with no real changes) in another two dozen - and the situation only gets worse throughout - I feel I can complain about unoriginal dialogue that show the scriptwriter didn't try very hard to write something original. > Titan A.E.> was a bildungsroman that tied internal discovery to external > exploration. That story has been done to death in every genre > so I suppose if you wanted to find cliches there, you probably weren't disappointed. Nope - only I doubt that I would use such a academic term as bildungsroman for what I perceived to be pure drivel. It seemed to me it was - "If we put lots of cool special effects, SF fans will watch it no matter what - story and dialogue are secondary." - a flaw the recent Dungeons and Dragons movie also had. > I watched Titan A.E and was delighted by the action, the > growth of the hero as he found his purpose and grappled with > his abandonment, the interesting alien cultures (the psychic > > birds were just cool in their role as oracular guides and > discovering the motivations > and abilities of the bad guys was interesting in lots of ways), I could name several stories where all of those elements appeared and were handled better (for example - the psychic birds appeared in Planetfall by Scott Gier and Vision of the Future by Timothy Zahn - and in those books they were real characters - not merely superficial stereotypes that appeared only to look cool). The bad guys (Pure energy aliens) have appeared in various guises in Star Trek, Battlestar Galatica comic books, and a dozen other places. but you did hit the nail on the head with the word cool. The movie reeked of "coolness." In fact all it wanted to be was cool. For me it failed, especially since all that was really "cool" was the Special effects. > did I mention the action?, and the twist at the end where sacrifice brings redemption (cliched, but what a cliche) and the actions of the bad = > guys are used to destroy them in the act of creation they had tried so hard to prevent. Not exactly original ideas, any of them, but then, how many > original ideas are there, anyway and they hardly qualify as cliche. No - but those ideas deserve to be handled better. There may be only so many ideas - but there's an infinite number of ways to deal with them - and Titan AE merely handled them in a way they've been handled far too often before. --Ivan Wolfe - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Elizabeth Hatch Subject: [AML] Re: Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 15 Aug 2001 08:31:40 -0700 Ronn Blankenship wrote: "Having not read a lot (if any) of this type of fiction, I have a question: does Weyland (or someone else) ever write stories where it's a non-member guy who falls for a Mormon girl and converts, or is it always a male RM continuing his missionary work after returning home? If the latter, does anyone have any ideas why the other version is not used?" Yes, at least one of Jack Weyland's books has a Mormon girl converting a non-member guy. The cover flap on JAKE says: "Readers will fall in love with Jake and Andrea and yearn for them to find some common ground. But what can you do if you're a Mormon girl, brought up to believe in temple marriage, and the only boy you've ever loved is not only a nonmember but a selfish, chronic liar?" Beth Hatch - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: katie@aros.net Subject: [AML] Unusual Names (was: Introductions: Paul Bishop) Date: 15 Aug 2001 08:54:41 -0600 (MDT) We had a pair of sister missionaries in Oklahoma, early '90's, named Sister White and Sister Brown. Sister Brown was African-American and Sister White was caucasian. --Katie Parker - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: [AML] Re: Unusual Names Date: 15 Aug 2001 11:35:45 -0600 For some reason, my mission (Norway) ran very heavily towards fish names. = We had an Elder Salmon, an Elder Trout, an Elder Perch, a Sister Gill,an = Elder Fish and an Elder Fisk, which is Norwegian for fish. And the = reputation of 'Siste Dagers Hellige' (Norwegian for LDS) was, uh, not very = good. We also had an Elder Merkely, which is Norwegian for 'weird' and an = Elder Tosk, which is Norwegian for 'dummy.' They were companions. "Hi, = I'm Elder Weirdo and this is my companion, Elder Dummy, and we represent = the Church of Jesus Christ of Polygamist Kooks. . . " Our mission was last = in the world in baptisms. . . . Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Allred Subject: Re: [AML] Fw: MN Deseret News' Dean Photo Editing Makes Worldwide News: Editor & Date: 15 Aug 2001 13:02:25 -0600 >>and asked the staff to do something about it, thinking they would find a tobacco-free photo Will no one rid me of this troublesome photo! Lee Lee Allred www.leeallred.com leea@sff.net - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: [AML] Cross-Medium Comparisons (was: _Titan AE_) Date: 15 Aug 2001 15:50:30 -0600 ---Original Message From: Ivan Angus Wolfe > Jacob Proffitt wrote: >=20 > > SF as a genre is barely large enough to have clich=E9s at all, > > > let alone enough to put together a whole movie. >=20 > I'd have to take you up on that - SF as a genre is so large that=20 > much of it is composed of cliches. The worst writers use the=20 > same tropes over and over - make use of the same ideas, etc. =20 > Even the best of writers fall into it - With Arthur C. Clarke (one of=20 > the greats), his last solo written works (Such as Songs of Distant=20 > Earth and Hammer of God) began to descend into cliches about=20 > Religion. Clarke feels there is a God, but that current Earths=20 > religions are dangerous - and over and over and over again=20 > mentions how much better society would be without it (he goes=20 > so far as to advocate censorship of anything related to religion if=20 > Songs of Distant Earth). For his later works (his earlier ones=20 > were much more ambiguous about it) religion is bad became a=20 > cliche. This is interesting. You're the third person to take me up on this statement and then bring in books as your source of clich=E9s. I'll = admit that I was perhaps unclear in my statement, but there is an interesting reason for that I'd like to explore. How many of you watch SF movies and apply SF literature as a basis for analysis? The thing I find interesting is that I don't. An underlying assumption of my statement is that there is no cross-art comparisons. When I watch movies, I compare them to other movies. When I read books, I compare them to other books. There is something of a wall between the two that prevents me from easy comparisons. Books and movies are sufficiently removed from each other that I tend to find any comparisons as interpretations rather than extensions. Let's take an example to show what I mean, here. Jane Austen's "Emma" is one of my all-time favorite books. I've read it, well, a dozen times or so and enjoy it immensely. A little while back, two movies were released that were essentially "Emma" remakes. One was, well, "Emma" and starred Gwyneth Paltrow. The other was "Clueless" and starred Alicia Silverstone. A lot of my friends and family who are also fans of Jane Austen's "Emma" hated (or at least expressed extreme dislike for) one or both of those movies. All of their objections come down to "Jane Austen did it better." I loved both movies and both have found a home in my private VHS collection (this was before I became a DVD snob). You see, it comes as something of a shock to me that you should compare either movie to the book. If I compare a movie to a book, I tend to hold something of a gulf between them because both mediums tell stories in very different ways. I'm far more likely to compare "Emma" the movie to "Clueless" than to "Emma" the book (which is *very* interesting, BTW). I think that both "Emma" the movie and "Clueless" did great jobs of capturing the spirit and/or essence of "Emma" even though they both cut or altered a great deal of the things I love about the book. Were they as good as the book? Not a comparison I can really make except to say that the book is still one of my all time favorites and both movies are good enough to be in my video library and viewed occasionally, but don't immediately spring to mind as favorite movies. So when I say that SF as a genre doesn't have many clich=E9s, I'm unconsciously excluding all the books and short stories I've read from that analysis. Based on the responses so far, I seem to be in the minority of people who do that. The question is, is this solely a personal quirk, or something that others do as well? And an interesting question to me is if cross-platform comparisons are valid and how to cross platforms elegantly. I ask this in the broader context because as I think about it, I do the same thing with plays as well, and even, to a certain extent between written plays and actual productions. To make it a really broad comparison: for me, it is a little like comparing a painting to a short story. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Melissa Proffitt Subject: Re: [AML] Unusual Names Date: 15 Aug 2001 15:10:39 -0600 On Wed, 15 Aug 2001 08:54:41 -0600 (MDT), katie@aros.net wrote: >We had a pair of sister missionaries in Oklahoma, early '90's, named = Sister=20 >White and Sister Brown. >Sister Brown was African-American and Sister White was caucasian. I'd think it would be even funnier if it were the other way around. Melissa Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: [AML] re: Cliches in Science Fiction Date: 15 Aug 2001 22:43:26 -0500 At 02:34 AM 8/15/01, D. Michael Martindale wrote: >Jacob Proffitt wrote: > > > SF as a genre is barely large enough to have clich=E9s at all, let alone > > enough to put together a whole movie. > >I'm surprised at you, Jacob. I thought you and Melissa were SF fans. >Science fiction is riddled with cliches. There's a whole website with a >long, detailed list of science fiction cliches >(http://enphilistor.users4.50megs.com/cliche.htm). FWIW, I can think of numerous stories that are generally considered good=20 (if not great) that are built around one or more of the clich=E9s on that=20 list*, showing that it can be what you do with it rather than how many=20 times its been used. However, it generally helps to be the _first_: e.g.,= =20 the 1954 film _Them!_ is considered a classic, though "giant mutant=20 s caused by atomic radiation" became a clich=E9 well=20 before the New Year's bells rang in the Sixties. It's always good to=20 remember the advice Heinlein's human protagonist gives to the=20 practical-joking AI in _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ when it comes up with= =20 what it thinks will be a wonderful new prank: Man: "Use it once, you're a wit. Use it twice, you're a half-wit." AI: "Geometric progression?" Man: "Or worse." ----- *There is also a long list of (in)famous clich=E9s to avoid in writing. I= =20 suspect, however, that many on this list have at some time have read the=20 well-known, award-winning book that starts with the ultimate in clich=E9=20 openings: "It was a dark and stormy night." ----- ******************************************** * * NOTE TO JONATHAN--PLEASE REMOVE BEFORE FORWARDING TO THE LIST: * Please don't insert the title--if anyone doesn't recognize it from that= clue, * let them look it up . . . ;-) * ******************************************** [snip of other good comments] >If there was anything about the movie that bothered me, it was that the >male protagonist's bare butt was shown, but when an equally plausible >opportunity came along to show the female protagonist's bare butt, she >was kept conveniently covered. Whatever happened to equality in the >sexes? Why is a man's bare butt a joke, but a woman's bare butt would be >a scandal, even if both circumstances are equally innocent? Could that have been meant as an intentional reversal of the usual=20 situation in film: gratuitous female nudity is common while male nudity is= =20 rare? (One reason that has been suggested for that imbalance is that historically= =20 most writers, producers, and directors have been male.) --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tami Miller" Subject: Re: [AML] Irreantum fiction contest winners Date: 16 Aug 2001 05:46:18 +0000 I can definitely relate to this, Darlene. A common reply is "Ah, isn't that niiiiiice." I'm surprised I haven't been patted (indulgently) on the head, like a two-year-old who finally learned to color in the lines! -Tami >From: Darlene Young > >Actually, the contest has made me so very grateful to >be a part of this online community. I was so excited >to read the announcement yesterday and I've been >telling everyone (bragging shamelessly) but, alas, the >people around me are not readers and writers and, when >I'm looking for congratulations, they smile >indulgently and say they are glad I'm enjoying my >"little hobby." I appreciate so much the chance to >turn on the computer and feel like I'm among friends >who understand me. Thanks, AML! > > >===== >Darlene Young > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger >http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ > > > > >- >AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature >http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: Re: [AML] Mission of Mormon Letters? Date: 15 Aug 2001 23:38:51 -0700 On Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 02:03:51PM -0600, Scott Parkin wrote: > > I'd just like to see more Mormons consider Mormon stories as a > > legitimate outlet for their creative energies. Not a demand, but a > > desire. Because I believe that the talent exists right now to tell > > the most powerful stories of Mormonness and humanity that the > > world has ever seen--if only our talented people will consider > > telling stories of Mormons as well as stories of others. Amen! Bro. Parkin. Terry L Jeffress , 30 Jul 2001, replies: > A worthy desire, but I think our culture makes the fulfilling of that > desire more difficult than in other cultures. We go to a lot of > effort to appear sinless. Any literature that peeks into the dark > reality of Mormonness must ultimately take on sin and imperfection. I don't like that phrase "dark reality of Mormonness." Sometimes people just want to write "stories about people who happen to be Mormons" (Bela Petsco's phrase), and sometimes people write about dark things to show the Gospel's power to dispel darkness. This is a major theme in horror fiction. I remember a review of William Peter Blatty's sequel to The Exorcist, Legion, where the reviewer said Blatty's purpose was to "justify God's ways to man," but Stephen King and Peter Straub did it a lot better (and of course there's Malt Whitman, who "does more than Milton Cahn to justify God's ways to Mann"). But it's also a theme in other kinds of fiction, or ought to be. I've written before of my admiration for how Levi Peterson stands literary convention on its head in "The Gift," where it's the believing missionary who shakes the atheist's faith in the void. That's an interesting thread running through Eugene England's anthology _Converted to Christ Through the Book of Mormon_, people talking about the angst, sorrow and existential darkness they lived in before coming to Christ through the Book of Mormon. That's also the main image in Lehi's dream--the Savior's power to bring us through horrifying darkness, an image repeated when the prophecy of that dream is fulfilled as the Savior delivers those still alive from the horrible darkness after his crucifixion. (Sidelight here. My sister has Friberg's picture of the Savior's appearance in Zarahemla over her mantle. I had assumed, because her husband had a very troubled relationship with the Church, that she put it there, but I think it was his picture. At his funeral their home teacher of 20 years told a story Bruce had told him. He was a psychologist and one day had gone to a colleague to talk over a problem and the colleague said, "Imagine yourself in the worst situation you can. Who could rescue you?" Now, hearing this story I thought, 'A good lawyer,' but Bruce said, "The Savior.") So some people might write dark stories because they want to show how the Light of the World dispels darkness, and how much. > Most people don't want to face the fact that these problems exist. Or it may simply be a legacy of the past half century of literary criticism and theory. I spent a long, dreamlike (and I hope lucid) essay wondering at how 50 years' of high school and college teachers approaching literature and art as something that challenges or subverts society (like a howitzer challenges a town--to use Lionel Trilling's image), that is, as something anti-social, affects people's attitudes towards art and literature. Given that most people don't venture much further into lit. crit. than what they learn in Freshperson comp and those that do end up teaching that literature challenges and subverts society, artists perhaps ought not be surprised when people choose to interpret stories about painful dark things as attacks on them, in much the same way audiences might interpret that slicing the eyeball in Bunuel's Un Chien Andalou as an attack on them. (If I ran that last sentence through Grammatik it would tell me that long sentences can be confusing, and that I have two in a row. "Consider varying your sentence length.") > We also must face the fact that our church owns the major book > distribution system for our literature. I don't believe that the > editorial content of Deseret Book titles could shift very far from its > present course. Covenant could probably publish more interesting > material, but Covenant has such a strict profit motive, that they > probably wouldn't take the chance. That leaves Signature, which > has published some challenging titles, but these always seem to > have an anti-Mormon theme. Could you give some examples, please, Terry, of Signature Books with anti-Mormon themes? I've heard this charge several times and it always reminds me of the Jews who claim Phillip Roth is anti-Semitic when I found "Eli the Fanatic" a moving celebration of a group of Holocaust survivors trying to survive the post-war in a secular environment. > We may have the talented people who could tell these stories, but I > don't believe that we have a broad-minded enough culture willing and > ready to receive these stories. I think we should tell the stories > anyway, and allow history to filter out the stories that get retold. I think we also need to create a body of criticism that teaches us that interpretation is always a choice and that we are responsible for how we interpret works of art--that is, we have the ability to respond to works of art, and explore our response, even change it. Harlow S. Clark ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ethan Skarstedt" Subject: RE: [AML] Cliches in Science Fiction Date: 15 Aug 2001 14:12:26 -0600 >At 01:13 AM 8/14/01, Jacob Proffitt wrote: >>SF as a genre is barely large enough to have clich=E9s at all, >No? How about: >(1) Two space travelers crash-land on a deserted planet, and in the very=20 last paragraph, we learn that their names are . . . . . . Adam=20 and Eve. >(2) The brave, handsome spaceship captain who flies around the Galaxy=20 righting wrongs (and romancing females of any species). >(3) The time traveler who goes back in time to kill his own grandfather. >(4) The time traveler who goes back in time to save President Kennedy from=20 >being assassinated. (Forty years ago, the exact same story, but with=20 >President Lincoln.) >(5) "The last man on Earth sat in a room alone. There was a knock at the=20 >door . . . " >Anyone have any others to add? Sure. 1 Powerful alien race manipulates early humans and turns out to be (gasp) God. 2 The time traveler who meets himself and is confused and out of sorts for no other reason than he is meeting himself. 3 Aliens with complicated foreheads. Note: I must be calling the wrong thing Science Fiction if it's not considered a large genre. What thread did Mr. Proffitt say that in? I'd like to read it. [Ethan Skarstedt] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard Johnson Subject: Re: [AML] Medved's Arguments Date: 15 Aug 2001 16:06:23 -0400 Jacob Proffitt wrote: > > Yes. My point exactly. The people in Hollywood are motivated by a > lot > of different things and I think that serving Satan (or even a war > against decency as claimed by Medved) is probably one of the least > common. skip > Interestingly, I think the (more accurate) perception that Hollywood > is > in blind pursuit of money is at the heart of much of our cultural > conflict with regards to artists and affects LDS artists more than any > hidden Hollywood agenda could. > Jacob Proffitt > My only adventures in film were about forty years ago, but I have a number of former students, former classmates etc. who have gone about making films for years and years, and this leads to discussion of the process when we get together for whatever purpose. I haven't read Medved, though I have heard him on the talk-show, news-show format. I thought he had some trenchant things to say, but the contention that someone would set out consciously with a war against decency is, IMHO, silly. What I know from personal experience is that many filmmakers don't have a G rated sense of morality. Most of them that I know, try to be pretty moral people, but even in that group are many who think it perfectly logical and not all that immoral to fall in love with and have an affair with a co-star. I have even heard it stated with some emphasis that if it doesn't happen the film is likely not to have "electricity". I know others who use cocaine as a crutch just to keep going in their lives. The movies that they make are likely to fall into what they personally identify as moral and/or necessary. (One of those who "fell in love with a co-star, but returned to his own true love after the film was made had been actively involved with "spiking" old growth trees to make it dangerous to cut them. The sexual morality that might concern me is not in force, but he would risk arrest and even killing someone else to save a redwood). I think what we see is a variety of moral codes and a variety of artistic visions. Many of these visions are also affected by whatever one feels will draw in the dollars. As a Director of Theatre at a college in South Baptist Georgia, I discovered early that we had to be very selective in the presentation of "edgy" material because we were/are somewhat dependent on the box office, and the more edgy the performance the smaller the audience. I remember a performance of Vonnegut's _Happy Birthday Wanda June_ that played, in arena, to an average audience of about six. Fortunately it was playing in rep (same actors in both shows) with a production of _Godspell_ that was sold out to the walls every night. I think Hollywood is at least as selective in melding the artistic vision to the morality of the makers to the potential audience involved. I think sometimes they do a pretty dumb job-- but then I aint one of them I am one of "us". Richard Johnson - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] _Titan AE_ Date: 16 Aug 2001 01:15:49 -0600 Ivan Angus Wolfe wrote: > Even the best of writers fall into it - With Arthur C. Clarke (one of > the greats), his last solo written works (Such as Songs of Distant > Earth and Hammer of God) began to descend into cliches about > Religion. Clarke feels there is a God, but that current Earths > religions are dangerous That's news to me. I could have sworn Clarke was an avowed atheist. Seems like I've heard direct quotes from him about that. I definitely remember Stanley Kubrick talking about it in regards to a scene from "2001: A Space Odyssey." A woman claimed to see the sign of the cross in the film (probably when the moons of Jupiter and the monolith came into alignment). Kubrick was bemused by that because, as he said, he's a Jew and Clarke's an atheist. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Turk325@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Home Schooling (was: Mormon Monasticism) Date: 15 Aug 2001 19:37:20 EDT In a message dated 8/15/01 2:07:38 PM, iaw2@email.byu.edu writes: << However - there were two other families in our ward who home -schooled their children and would routinely get up in testimony meeting to talk about how more spiritual their kids were than the rest of us who were being tutored by the Satan-run Public education system. If I ever talked about what was going on at school with one of their kids who was my age - they would shake their heads and tell me I was in the devil's camp. >> The Flanders family. They live in Springfield. Next to the Simpsons. Kurt Weiland - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Morris Subject: RE: [AML] Medved's Arguments Date: 16 Aug 2001 08:44:46 -0700 (PDT) --- Jacob Proffitt wrote: > Interestingly, I think the (more accurate) > perception that Hollywood is > in blind pursuit of money is at the heart of much of > our cultural > conflict with regards to artists and affects LDS > artists more than any > hidden Hollywood agenda could. Since we disdain > Hollywood and we know > that blind pursuit of profit is immoral and wrong, > we want assurance > that our artists aren't, well, tainted. Since > pursuit of money leads to > Hollywood's excesses, we want to make sure that > those forces won't taint > our LDS literature. At least, this might be an > explanation for why we > hold our artists to higher standards than we hold > the rest of our > entertainment. > So what you're saying is that Mormons are just as bad as those hipsters who obssess over indie-cred. Man, the Flaming Lips totally sold out when they appeared on 90210. Except for the Mormon audience the standard of credibility is both a) untainted by filthy lucre and b) untainted by sex, violence, and bad language. What's interesting is that the rabid indie-cred guys and culturally-sensitive Mormons (i.e. Mormons for whom the culture of Mormondon is paramount) both seem to have the same goal--to maintain a certain purity of cultural expression and identity in the face of heavily-marketed, profit-driven, corporate-created culture. ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gerald G Enos Subject: Re: [AML] Unusual Names Date: 16 Aug 2001 14:41:42 -0600 Ok now we are on sisters. In my mission there was Sister Ball who was (like me) round and jolly and Sister Stout who didn't match her name at all. Then of course I wonder what people would have said about my husband on his mission. (Elder Enos) Konnie Enos ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gerald G Enos Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 16 Aug 2001 14:16:15 -0600 Ronn, Maybe stories with the member girl converting the non-member guy aren't used that often because they are so full of problems. The only ladies I know of that fell in love with a non-member either married and raised their kids in a part-member home or he converted only to leave the church latter on and the marriage ended in divorce. In fact of all the marriages like this I can think of I only know of one that has not split up. In that one she is less active and he might has well be baptized and probably would if his mother wasn't so anti-mormon. On the other hand I know stories that have happy endings that are boy converts girl so I can believe that kind of story. Well what I am trying to say is that maybe girl converts boy and marries him are harder stories to make beleiveable because they don't happen very often. (Less often then the other way around.) Konnie Enos ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "REWIGHT" Subject: Re: [AML] J. Scott BRONSON, _The Whipping Boy_ (Unpublished) Date: 16 Aug 2001 16:28:47 -0500 Well Scott, You've certainly piqued my interest in this book. I'd like to read it. Anna - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Darvell Hunt" Subject: [AML] Re: Unusual Names Date: 16 Aug 2001 17:37:18 -0500 Two examples from my own mission (Late 80's in the Massachusetts Boston Mission): Elder Flake and Elder Flake, two cousins from Snowflake, Arizona. This companionship got split up when one of them went home. I got the other one immediately after. I had a hard time getting him to wear his nametag because he had gotten out of practice. Imagine the confusion: "Hello. I'm Elder Flake and this is my companion, Elder Flake." (Yes, they both were from the Flake family who joined the Snow family in settling Snowflake, Arizona.) Second example: Sister Elder (who ended up marrying one of my companions, Elder Wilde) Another example from my home ward where I grew up: Elder Elder. Darvell Hunt Saratoga Springs, Utah _____________________________________________ Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! http://www.MyOwnEmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Marianne Hales Harding" Subject: Re: [AML] Irreantum fiction contest winners Date: 16 Aug 2001 18:08:37 -0600 Oh, isn't that the truth!!! I still have people who come up to me and ask if I'm still doing "that little playwriting thing." Yeah, and I call it a...career...thank you very much. Survey: how many of the women writers on this list get the proverbial indulgent pat on the head when it comes to matters career? And I know that the men will cry foul because they get it too but somehow I have to say that we women seem to get it more. I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong... Marianne Hales Harding (who is in Cedar City now and loving being the playwright-of-the-week here at the Utah Shakespearean Festival) >I can definitely relate to this, Darlene. A common reply is "Ah, isn't >that >niiiiiice." I'm surprised I haven't been patted (indulgently) on the head, >like a two-year-old who finally learned to color in the lines! > >-Tami > >>From: Darlene Young >> >>Actually, the contest has made me so very grateful to >>be a part of this online community. I was so excited >>to read the announcement yesterday and I've been >>telling everyone (bragging shamelessly) but, alas, the >>people around me are not readers and writers and, when >>I'm looking for congratulations, they smile >>indulgently and say they are glad I'm enjoying my >>"little hobby." I appreciate so much the chance to >>turn on the computer and feel like I'm among friends >>who understand me. Thanks, AML! >> >> >>===== >>Darlene Young >> >>__________________________________________________ >>Do You Yahoo!? >>Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger >>http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ >> >> >> >> >>- >>AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature >>http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > >- >AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature >http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Morris Subject: Re: [AML] Unusual Names Date: 16 Aug 2001 17:09:01 -0700 (PDT) --- Melissa Proffitt wrote: > On Wed, 15 Aug 2001 08:54:41 -0600 (MDT), > katie@aros.net wrote: > > >We had a pair of sister missionaries in Oklahoma, > early '90's, named Sister > >White and Sister Brown. > >Sister Brown was African-American and Sister White > was caucasian. > > I'd think it would be even funnier if it were the > other way around. > > Melissa Proffitt > My uncle went on a mission to England--Leeds to be exact. He's tall, blond and looks very English (we are Morrises after all) but with better teeth. He has, as do I, a slight California accent (not quite surfer-dude, but somewhat lazy with the vowels). One of his companians was an African immigrant who had been educated in London at an exclusive boarding school. He spoke the Queen's English. They confused a lot of people when they tracted. The accents and the faces didn't quite match up for some folks. This was northern England, after all, where there are less people of color. ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] Provo Theatre Company closes (Provo Daily Herald) Date: 17 Aug 2001 16:50:06 +0000 Provo Theatre Company closes doors ERIC D. SNIDER The Daily Herald on Sunday, August 12 PROVO -- Provo Theatre Company, a staple in the local arts community since 1984, has closed its doors due to a lack of funding. Saturday's final performance of "You're a Good Man, Charlie Brown" was, in fact, the final performance for the theater -- at least untilfall 2002, when theater officials hope to reopen. In the meantime, the company will "focus on fund raising," said Rich Hill, a Provo attorney who is also the theater's board chairman and managing director. "We consider ourselves a nonprofit art house, and approximately 45 percent of our overhead is covered by donations from private donors," Hill said. He added that raising money has been "very difficult" in Utah County, especially with projects like Academy Square drawing away donors who might have otherwise given to the theater. "You can't survive on ticket sales alone," Hill said. Tim Threlfall, a BYU theater professor who was PTC's last artistic director, said the theater has lately operated at about 60-70 percent audience capacity. "But even if we had 100 percent ticket sales, it still wouldn't be enough," he said. The reason is the same reason Provo Theatre Company is unique among local venues: It is the only semiprofessional theater in the valley. All the actors, directors and other personnel are paid for their work, while other theaters usually rely on volunteers or pay small honorariums. With funding not coming through -- and Hill declined to say how much was needed -- the theater was forced to close up shop for a year to raise money. "The other option was to not pay our actors, not hire professional scene designers and costumers, and basically become a community theater," Hill said. "There are plenty of community theaters in the valley which do a fine job, and we don't want to be a community theater." Hill has been involved with Provo Theatre Company since it began 17 years ago with summer performances at Timpview High School and winter shows at Provo High School and the Eldred Center. The company got its own theater in 1996, when it moved into its current cozy setting at 105 E. 100 North. PTC has prided itself on doing shows that are out of the norm, but that stay within the bounds of what local audiences will accept. "A Tuna Christmas," "Shadowlands" and "Oleanna" -- all highly regarded in theater circles but rarely seen on Utah stages -- were mounted by PTC. "We attempt to do plays and musicals that ... will probably not be seen at other facilities in the valley," Hill said. "We have a jewel of a theater that allows everyone to have a good view of the stage, and it's very intimate. It's a wonderful place." Threlfall said, "We've been growing nicely in the past year in terms of building an audience. It's hard to explain that this has nothing to do with attendance, but with fund raising." Miriam Latour, who runs a local theater Web site at www.playersanonymous.org, described PTC's closing as "terribly sad." "It's one of the few theaters that's open-minded about some of the productions they do," she said. "It provides a place for those of us to go who are maybe a little more interested in seeing deeper dramas, deeper theater. It's what our valley really needs." Hill remains optimistic. "We're going to take a hiatus, but we don't want to close the theater," he said. "We want to keep the theater alive." Anyone interested in offering financial assistance to the theater can contact Hill at 375-6600. Eric D. Snider can be reached at 344-2560 or dhfamily@heraldextra.com. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Needle" Subject: [AML] Kenneth STEVENS, _So Great a Cause_ Date: 18 Aug 2001 00:16:59 -0700 There seems to be no end to the interesting books I can find at DI. Today it's "So Great A Cause -- A Surprising New Look at the Latter-day Saints (Mormons)" by Kenneth D. Stephens. It purports to prove, using Mormon scripture, that Joseph Smith was a legitimate prophet of God, but was also the forerunner of the Baha'u'llah, founder of the Baha'i faith. Yup, no end the to interesting things you can find at DI. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship (by way of Jonathan Langford ) Subject: [AML] Death of Eugene England Date: 20 Aug 2001 09:13:15 -0500 >The following is forwarded from Gene's son, Mark: > >August 17, 2001 >Dear friends; >my father, Gene England, passed away this morning in the company of his >family. We will be holding a private burial service for the family, and on >August 25, Saturday morning, we will be holding a public memorial service. >We invite you all and will let you know of the time. Thank you for your >prayers. >Mark England Also: >A few days before his father died, Mark England sent out a request asking >for friends and colleagues of his father to "send any stories or >memories of their time with him. We are collecting them for our family. The >opening line is "My favorite memory or story about Gene is ..." >Please send them to my email or gene.charlotte@att.global.net or post at >1775 Andrus Lane, Provo, Utah 84604 >Please forward this >Thank you very much >Mark England > > >Forwarded from Jody England Hansen: > >---------- > >Michael and I were able to be with my parents and my siblings on Friday >morning, August 17 when my father died of a rare form of brain cancer. We >have been hoping, praying and working hard for Dad's recovery since his >collapse and emergency surgery on February 21. We are grateful for the >strength, guidance and feelings of peace and comfort we have received in >answer to prayer, as well as the overwhelming support from countless people >in the form of messages, prayers, help, food, comfort for Dad, and so many >other ways. There was a private graveside service for immediate family on >Saturday, August 18. All the children and the grandchildren were able to >participate as pallbearers after placing special gifts and messages in his >casket. There will be a public memorial service at 1:00 p.m. on Saturday, >August 25 in the Provo Tabernacle. My father was truly Christ like to the >end, showing patience, concern and love to everyone around him, even in the >midst of great pain. No matter how difficult the task of taking care of >him, it was a pleasure to be a part of that task to the last moment. I will >miss him more than I can say. >Some of my sisters and I wrote an obituary that will be in the Provo Daily >Herald. I am including it below because I think Dad would write this during >his lighter moments. I am also attaching the photo. A more formal obituary >will be in the Monday edition of the Salt Lake Tribune and the Deseret News. > >Eugene England has left the building. He died at 10:15 a.m. on Friday, >August 17, 2001. Having a rare form of brain, he died of a rare form of >brain cancer. >Dad was under the delusion that he was 58 years old, a delusion we allowed >him to have until he died. But according to his birth certificate, he was >born on July 22, 1933, making him 68 years old. >We will celebrate Dad's life at a memorial service at 1 p.m. on Saturday, >August 25, 2001 at the Provo Tabernacle. Come early if you want a good >seat. Forget flowers. Send money (to the Eugene England Memorial Education >Fund at any Zion's Bank). You can still send messages to Dad at >gene.charlotte@attglobal.net. We will pass them on. Send us great stories >about Gene. > > > >Thank You, > >Jody England Hansen > >********************************************** >Voice: 801.451.7409 >FAX: 801.451.7549 >E-Mail: artengin@inovion.com >********************************************** --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: [AML] Re: Arthur C. Clarke (was: _Titan AE_) Date: 16 Aug 2001 19:06:43 -0500 At 02:15 AM 8/16/01, you wrote: >Ivan Angus Wolfe wrote: > > > Even the best of writers fall into it - With Arthur C. Clarke (one of > > the greats), his last solo written works (Such as Songs of Distant > > Earth and Hammer of God) began to descend into cliches about > > Religion. Clarke feels there is a God, but that current Earths > > religions are dangerous > >That's news to me. I could have sworn Clarke was an avowed atheist. >Seems like I've heard direct quotes from him about that. I definitely >remember Stanley Kubrick talking about it in regards to a scene from >"2001: A Space Odyssey." A woman claimed to see the sign of the cross in >the film (probably when the moons of Jupiter and the monolith came into >alignment). Kubrick was bemused by that because, as he said, he's a Jew >and Clarke's an atheist. > >-- >D. Michael Martindale >dmichael@wwno.com From the horse's mouth: Back in the 1970s, when he was still traveling and speaking in the U.S., I heard Arthur C. Clarke describe himself as having started out an atheist, but, after having written so many stories with religious themes, etc., now (i.e., 30 years ago) he was a "lapsed atheist." --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: [AML] Re: Arthur C. Clarke (was: _Titan AE_) Date: 16 Aug 2001 18:52:38 -0600 (MDT) > That's news to me. I could have sworn Clarke was an avowed atheist. > Seems like I've heard direct quotes from him about that. I definitely > remember Stanley Kubrick talking about it in regards to a scene from > "2001: A Space Odyssey." > D. Michael Martindale >From Reading Clarke's work, I get the idea that he is an atheist only in that he doesn't believe in any God that humanity has invented, believes religion is a bad thing, and that if there is a God (any god at all) - it is nothing like any of us - even Clarke - could imagine. There are far too many god figures in Clarke (Overmind in "Childhood's End" and whatever it was called in the Rama sequels - and there is a hint of some divine intervention in "The Hammer of God" - etc.) Clarke is agnostic towards a possible, unknown and currently unknowable God that has yet to reveal itself to us - but for all practical purposes, he is an atheist. --Ivan Wolfe - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: [AML] Re: Cliches in Science Fiction Movies Date: 16 Aug 2001 18:47:05 -0600 (MDT) > So when I say that SF as a genre doesn't have many clich=E9s, I'm > unconsciously excluding all the books and short stories I've read from > that analysis. > > Jacob Proffitt okay - I'll just use SF movies. How about - in the future - mankind has been subjected by robots, which now rule (well done in the Matrix, horribly done in Robot Wars 3000). Or the post-holocaust future - where we all nuked ourselves into near oblivion - Naming movies about this is far too easy - If you (generic, rhetorical you) can't name at least a dozen, then you can't claim to be a true devotee of SF. Or Aliens invade earth and blow up lots of stuff. Or perhaps the cliche of the mad scientist who creates a being of unimaginable power that that then goes on a rampage and kills lots of people. (this also works as an alien being crashlanding on earth and doing much the same thing). Or a giant rock is abou to smash into the Earth (The old movie When Worlds Collide, to TV movies like Asteroid or Beneath the Rock, or Hollywood tales like Armageddon or Deep Impact - to name the most obvious examples). Even the SF movie genre has it's cliches. Just watch a season of Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica, Buck Rogers, Earth:Final Conflict or any other SF TV show. You'll see them. Plus - my current favorite SF show "Futurama" makes is centered around esploring and deconstructing SF cliches. (Like the episode where all the earth's trash is hurled into space and then it solidifies and turns around and is going to smash the earth). Even using purely visual film SF, Titan AE still is full of cliches. --Ivan Wolfe - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tami Miller" Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 17 Aug 2001 00:52:41 +0000 I converted my husband, and we are happily married, active, with two kids, after four years. (I know four years isn't much, but it's something!) -Tami Miller P.S. I must say, though, I believe my husband would have converted anyway, even if I wasn't in the picture. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Preston" Subject: [AML] Re: Cross-Medium Comparisons (was: _Titan AE_) Date: 16 Aug 2001 20:13:45 -0500 I think avoiding cross-medium comparisons is valid because different medium have different audiences. Whether gauging sociological impact or market penetration, movies have a far larger audience than books. This is one of the reasons that a single movie usually has far more impact than a single book. Sometimes it is difficult to compare books with movies simply because nearl= y all the people who know what you're talking about when you mention movies (Star Wars, E.T., Independence Day, etc.) haven't actually read any of the books that you might want to mention -- even if those books are major classics in the "same" genre (Clark's _Childhood's End_, Asimov's _Foundation_ series, Heinlein's _Stranger in a Strange Land_, Le Guin's _Dispossessed_). Discussing both films and books at the same time (may not "comparing" them, per se) would seem to be advisable only when the intended audience of the discussion has is likely to be familiar with the works, perhaps because the works have been so popular within a specific population. For example, there should be no difficulty discussing the book _Charly_, the film "God's Army"= , and the musical "Saturday's Warrior" at the same time, because the intended audience is probably familiar to all of them. I wouldn't necessarily try to "compare" them, however, because to do so would be a disservice to endeavor= s which had very different goals and very different types of success. Preston Hunter Dallas, Texas www.adherents.com ---------- - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Covell, Jason" Subject: RE: [AML] Unusual Names Date: 17 Aug 2001 11:02:26 +1000 Years ago, before I was baptised or knew anything much about the Church, I saw two very fresh-faced missionaries striding up the main street near where I lived. Wanting to avoid contact with Those Mormons, I rushed past as they waved a hello, although I just caught sight of one of their badges as I passed. "Elder Bishop", it read. "He's the elder bishop?" I thought to myself cluelessly. "That must mean the other guy is the younger bishop. But they both seem so young! Where do those Mormons get off?" I shook my head and walked on. Although I scarcely knew it at the time, it was one of many little odd questions I found myself asking that eventually led to my investigating the Church - so you have at least one case study of how the quirks and peculiarities of the Church and the culture of its members led someone to be baptised... now if only Jack Weyland could harness the full potential - girl meets terminally confused non-member boy! (Actually, Jack Weyland's role in inspiring some of the other questions I had as a non-member/perpetual investigator is another story altogether...) Jason Covell ************************************************************************** This message is intended for the named addressee(s) only. It may be confidential. If you receive this message in error please notify us immediately by return mail and delete the message (and any attachments). Neither the NSW Department of Community Services nor the NSW Department of Ageing, Disability & Home Care are responsible for any changes to this message, or the consequences of any changes to this message. ************************************************************************** - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Alan Rex Mitchell" Subject: Re: [AML] Unusual Names Date: 16 Aug 2001 21:07:39 -0600 Eric Samuelsen wrote: > For some reason, my mission (Norway) ran very heavily towards fish names. We had an Elder Salmon, an Elder Trout, an Elder Perch, a Sister Gill,an Elder Fish and an Elder Fisk, which is Norwegian for fish. And the reputation of 'Siste Dagers Hellige' (Norwegian for LDS) was, uh, not very good. We also had an Elder Merkely, which is Norwegian for 'weird' and an Elder Tosk, which is Norwegian for 'dummy.' They were companions. "Hi, I'm Elder Weirdo and this is my companion, Elder Dummy, and we represent the Church of Jesus Christ of Polygamist Kooks. . . " Our mission was last in the world in baptisms. . . . Eric, Sounds like you ought to write a book about it. Only lose the funny names. Alan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Cross-Medium Comparisons (was: _Titan AE_) Date: 17 Aug 2001 00:43:32 -0600 Jacob Proffitt wrote: > So when I say that SF as a genre doesn't have many clich=E9s, I'm > unconsciously excluding all the books and short stories I've read from > that analysis. Based on the responses so far, I seem to be in the > minority of people who do that. > To make it > a really broad comparison: for me, it is a little like comparing a > painting to a short story. I don't know if you or I are in the minority on this, but I see a much smaller gulf between books and film than you do. No question they are two very different formats for telling stories. But in the end, they both tell stories. The same basic elements that go into a book story must be in a film story. Literature can do cer6tain things much better than film can, and vice versa. But mostly, the two simply have different techniques for implementing the same elements. There can be cliches that will not cross boundaries between formats--particularly there can be image-based cliches that wouldn't appear in books--but mostly cliches should be able to cross boundaries rather well. The website I gave that lists SF cliches gets as many of them from film and television as from books. --=20 D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths=20 Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "REWIGHT" Subject: Re: [AML] LDS Publishers vs. National Publishers Date: 17 Aug 2001 01:53:36 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 11:44 PM > Anna Wight wrote: > > > > I believe Proffit and Wight and Hume can reach both their literary and > > > their financial (read "copies sold") goals in whatever markets they > > > pursue. > > > >Just out of curiousity (here's my geneology side kicking in) who is Wight? > > I was thinking of you. You write, right? Or did I get that wrong? > > Scott Parkin Hi Scott, Yes I do write, not under the Wight name. But it went completely over my head that you were talking about me. And here I thought someone in my husbands family was a writer. And thanks for the vote of confidence. Anna Wight - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: [AML] LDS Booksellers Convention Date: 17 Aug 2001 02:50:24 -0600 Thanks to AML joining the LDS Booksellers Association, I was able to attend their conference going on this week. I don't know how much value my visit had for AML, except for the several opportunities I had to tell people what the heck it was, but I sure got some good out of it for me. Maybe I can pass on some of that good and justify my presence there. Excel Entertainment had Richard Dutcher signing when I first showed up. There was a nice line of people with videos and movie posters. He was just finishing up as I came along. We talked for a while about the upcoming AML writers conference--the only writers conference specifically designed for authors of LDS literature, to be held November 3 at Thanksgiving Point just north of Lehi, Utah, with guest of honor Richard Dutcher, prominent LDS filmmaker, and other exciting guests--and about AML-List, especially the thread on the _Testaments_ film. We conspired a little on what we could do about the mediocre quality of Legacy theater films, which conspiracies I won't tell you about. I learned about the series of books that will be coming out based on _God's Army_. The first is the novelization of the film, written by Geoffrey Card, son of Orson Scott, due out in two months. After that two more books are slated for next year which start a series of books about each main character from the film: _Sister Fronk's Story_, written by Deanne Blackhurst, and _Elder Dalton's Story_, written by J. Scott Bronson. Geoff Card was also there carrying on the family business of stirring up trouble. His illustrious father will be at the Deseret Book booth tomorrow signing, primarily for _Rebekah_. Naturally, I will also be there. Next I tackled Dean Hale, VP of motion picture distribution at Excel. We talked about LDS films. Excel is looking for good LDS scripts in all sorts of genres. They are surprised at the apparent lack of scripts out there for the LDS audience. When they find a script they think is worthwhile, they'll see to it that it gets produced and distributed. He intimated that Zion Films is also on the lookout for scripts. I ran into Tyler Moulton, acquisitions editor for Covenant and new AML board member. But since we'd already talked recently about a number of things, our conversation was short. Just be aware that Covenant is also keeping an eye out for good manuscripts as it ventures into new genres. I had conversations with both Horizon and Cornerstone. There is some bad blood going on there. Both sides have grievances, which I'm certainly not going to try and sort out. The bad blood isn't over yet, either. It's all an unfortunate mess which has caused both publishing houses serious setbacks, and which they both are trying to recover from. The courts have been brought in to set things straight, and there are likely to be some very upset people before it's all over. Cornerstone is confident they are going to rise from the ashes and accomplish all they originally set out to do. Horizon's feelings about the future didn't work its way into the conversation I had there. I seemed to keep running into author B.J. Rowley the whole time. He's got a new book out that sounds pretty interesting. He'll have to tell you the title, because I don't remember it, but it's about a girl who just missed the prom because her 16th birthday came days after it. She discovers a way to go back in time, so she returns to prom night now that she's old enough to attend. I spoke at length with Barry Evans of Evans Book, a wholesale distributor which concentrates on national distribution of LDS books and products, and has done a lot with self-published books. Whenever someone has a dream of doing something new, and wants to bypass the usual conservative, cautious channels to get it done, the big bottleneck is always distribution. My impression was that, if you have a product like a self-published book or something, Evans Book might be a good distributor to check out. Deseret Book, of course, had the biggest display there. They were also the most stand-offish. Most booths were quite friendly, many of them reaching out to me as I passed. I wandered through Deseret Book's multipart exhibit several times, and not once did anyone go out of their way to talk to me. Maybe I wasn't dressed for success enough for them. I was impressed with the Cedar Fort exhibit. Larger than I expected for a smaller operation, with lots of beautiful, large posters of their book covers. I just missed Marilyn Brown by an hour or two. There were plenty of "junk" booths--not junky booths, mind you--but booths that had all sorts of doodads that were not books or film or music, the things that interest me. Hey, if it doesn't interest me, it's junk, right? I did pause at the Mormon-opoly booth for a while though, since a good board game always intrigues me. (I refuse to grow up.) Just to have a metal Monopoly piece shaped like a beehive made the game worth it. They would have used coins based on senines and all that Book of Mormon currency, but the cost of producing that was too much, so they stayed with boring dollars and paper money. I talked with outspoken, opinionated Tom Kimball, marketing director at Signature Books. I asked him what was up with fiction at Signature. Fiction at Signature is purely a philanthropic endeavor, he said, because virtually all their fiction tanks. I asked him why that was, and he said, "If you want to hide something from members of the church, put it in print." He discussed John Bennion's _Falling Toward Heaven_ specifically, a book which was well received by all the critics--even conservative ones, which surprised Tom--but sold very few copies. He, along with the rest of us, wondered what in the world could be done about the situation. Deseret Books sells "gift books," as he calls them--books they know no one will read, but will buy as gifts and give to people who will also not read them. Covenant sells those Stansfield/Nunes romance books that do pretty well, but when it comes to good, solid literature, it just doesn't happen in the LDS community. "How many Mormons do you think have read Homer? None!" Covenant's infamous contract kept popping up in conversations I had with other publishers whenever I persued prospects of publication with them--and not in a favorable light. The consensus was that it was unconscionable, and done only because they could get away with it in the current industry climate. The hope was that as other publishers grow and compete and become viable alternatives to Covenant, they'll be obliged to do away with the thing. I attended the banquet they had that night. I recommend foregoing the banquet, unless you're really into finding out who won the awards. Way overpriced, and the food was the typical weird "banquet" stuff, made exotic to justify the enormous price tag. Many other people skipped the banquet--I didn't see a single person I knew except B.J. Rowley. I'd hoped I'd get a little shoulder rubbing in for my $30 bucks. The salad was very strange, with "lettuce" that looked more like the stuff I rake up every fall (except it was still green). The only redeeming feature in it was the sliced black olives. The woman next to me didn't even want the olives, so I picked hers off and ate them too. I needed to scrape the shredded crab off my chicken, after which it was pretty good, and the sliced potatoes were nice. The carrots looked like Bugs Bunny had prepared them--whole carrots cooked in butter with the green tops still on them. The string beans didn't taste like any string beans I'd ever had. They passed the gavel to the new president, introduced the new board members, got teary-eyed as they recognized the executive secretary who "does all the work" (there's one of those in every organization--for AML I think it's Chris Bigelow). Then they got around to the awards. Most of the awards were specific to stores and vendors, which didn't interest me. But two of the awards were noteworthy. The Best New Product as voted on by all the stores was videos and DVDs of _God's Army_. And the Outstanding product of the Year was Gordon B. Hinckley's _Standing for Something_. Both awards were anticipated by AML's awards back in February. After all the mostly boring business was taken care of, David Tinney provided the entertainment. He has great singing talent, but for me the songs themselves left much to be desired. Very run-of-the-mill LDS fare that I could never have told apart from a dozen other LDS artists. Where's Gladys Knight when you need her? But he did tell a cute anecdote about when he attended a church pageant at age twelve. One of the actors who played Jesus was off in the bushes mentally preparing himself for his entrance. A young boy was running around noisily having a good time on the grass nearby. Finally the actor must have had enough and, dressed up as Jesus, came bounding out of the bushes, grabbed the kid up by both arms, and shouted, "Stop running!" The kid, wide-eyed, ran to his mother and said, "Jesus just yelled at me!" I see therapy in that kid's future. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: [AML] News Flash: Brawl Between Dutcher and Brimley Date: 17 Aug 2001 04:16:40 -0600 A shocking photograph was released by an anonymous inside source at Zion Films today, confirming a rumor that has been quietly circulating within the LDS film community. The rumor states that film director Richard Dutcher and co-star Wilford Brimley duked it out on the set of _Brigham City_ during filming one morning. Confronted with the evidence, Brimley confessed: "Yes, it's all true. They paid me off to keep quiet, but there's no use now. Richard is the one that started it all. He said I was falling asleep too much on the set. Can I go eat my oatmeal now?" Authorities confirm that Brimley visited the hospital one morning during filming. He was treated for lacerations and bruises and a small scrape on the cornea of his right eye, then released. Sources indicate that Dutcher was treated with first aid on the spot for minor cuts on his cheek. Dutcher was reported to say, "I can whup his sorry butt any day." At the URL below, you can view the incriminating photograph where Dutcher commits the first act of violence that witnesses say started the brawl. Actor J. Scott Bronson, whose part in the film is allegedly still lying on the cutting room floor, said that immediately before this photograph was taken, he thought he heard Dutcher shout, "Wake up, Quaker Boy!" http://www.brighamcitythemovie.com/images/Photo_Dutcher05.jpg -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: katie@aros.net Subject: Re: [AML] Unusual Names Date: 17 Aug 2001 13:07:42 -0600 (MDT) > Sister Brown was African-American and Sister White was caucasian. > Melissa Proffitt (I think) said something about how it would have been even funnier if it had been the other way around-- (sorry, I deleted the original comment) But either way, they had the fun of introducing themselves as "Sister White and Sister Brown" and then they said "Guess which one's which!" --Katie Parker (P.S. Literary tie-in: Ideas for characters in the yet-to-be-written Great Missionary Story??) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Willson" Subject: Re: [AML] Unusual Names Date: 17 Aug 2001 13:44:54 -0600 I've been lurking on this thread since it started, and the only value I s= ee in it besides the belly laughs, is that it could be useful in naming c= haracters in our missionary fiction writing, or names changed to protect = the identity or innocence. =20 I thought Melissa Proffitt's reversal of the sisters Brown and White was = amusing. =20 I guess I should throw in my two cents worth: In the California mission i= n the early eighties, my (unknown at the time) future son-in-law was a zo= ne leader. He had a junior companion named elder Green. Elder Green was b= lack. A popular song at the time was "It's Not Easy Being Green" by Kermi= t the frog. The two men are good friends to this day, and they had a lot = of fun with that song and their relationship. Bill Willson - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Margaret Young Subject: [AML] re: Death of Eugene England Date: 18 Aug 2001 13:00:30 -0600 As most of you have heard, Gene England died Friday morning. The family has requested no visits or phone calls for the next few days. They will announce funeral plans soon. The funeral will be sometime next week. I hope there's no one on this list who doesn't realize that we all have just lost our dad. Gene was, in my view, the main thrust behind serious Mormon literature. He had many able helpers, but it was his vision which led us to where we are now--and we're at a good place. We need to think of some appropriate tribute. Flowers are woefully inadequate. A great man has passed, and attention must be paid. [Margaret Young] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tony Markham (by way of Jonathan Langford ) Subject: [AML] Spiritual Pornography Date: 20 Aug 2001 09:50:21 -0500 Both the church and the AML list have been spilling a lot of ink about the dangers and definitions of pornography. I listen with mixed emotions. First, I'm grateful not to have an addiction. The random porn images that fall into my line of sight by accident have zero appeal. The people depicted look miserable and pitiable, but not the least attractive. Second, I'm saddened by the overreaction to porn that leads to the exclusion and denunciation of all things that share commonalties with it. A common point made on this list is that what makes a thing pornographic is its context. An obvious example is that Michaelangelo's "David" is not porn, because it doesn't have the context of porn. Hmmm. I once had an art history teacher who insisted that Michaelangelo was homosexual and cited several pieces of arcane history to prove his point. For the sake of argument, let's concede the point. Does this create a different context for his sculpture? Does the reality of an old gay guy chiseling and polishing put "David" in a context closer to NAMBLA than the Old Testament? In this new context, some may actually see David as a piece of pornography. But I neither know, nor care about M's orientation. To me, that context simply doesn't matter. I see the statue and am elevated spiritually. In fact, if M. was a gay man, then this context puts David's expression and posture in a whole new light, even more uplifting. The Goliath he faces may be the Philistine champion, but might also be M's expression of apprehension, fear, and courage in the face of societal condemnation. And so after long pondering of what constitutes porn, I've come to think of it as anything that cheapens the human experience. It can be offensive language, or nudity, or any number of things. The more profound and spiritual a human experience is, the more susceptible it is to cheapening. Sex should be sublime and give us a glimpse into the procreative powers of eternity. Anything that diminishes or cheapens that experience is pornography, and it's all too common. My definition of pornography has now expanded to include most of prime time television which constantly cheapens and trivializes sexuality. It encompasses gory movies that cheapen and trivialize life itself. But my testimony of the gospel and my relationship with Deity are also profound, spiritual, and sublime. I have come to regard as pornographic any cheap, shallow, and trivializing treatments of Gospel themes. And as with M's David, the intent of the artist or writer is completely irrelevant. I have no doubt that most of what I find trivializing and shallow has been created by men and women of good faith. It's just that they are either poor artists or sloppy writers whose testimonies have outstripped their abilities to depict. This "gospel porn" is as equally damaging to my spiritual growth as those other kinds of porn. Perhaps more so, because I have such limited exposure to "skin" porn, but the "gospel" porn is in my face all the time. Being far afield from temple square and the Great and Spacious building, I've yet to see "Testaments." Some say the film is profound and touching, but others claim it cheapens the events in the Book of Mormon. To the degree it cheapens these deep and spiritual matters, the film would be, for me, pornography. And on the chance that I would feel the cheapening effect, I think I'll avoid it. This is no different from tens of thousands of Good Mormons who will avoid "Schindler's List" on the chance they may be offended by certain scenes. The last issue of the Ensign featured a cover photograph of shiny, happy people who were grouped as in a choir, singing. They were posed, lit, and dressed very much like mannequins in a department store window. It was clear that they were just attractive models being used to imitate profound spirituality and then photographed. To me they looked miserable and pitiable and this constituted a shallow cheapening of sacred matters. By an odd coincidence, I got a renewal subscription notice the same week. Shall I continue to invite this into my home, arriving by mail in a surreptitious wrapper? I think I'll just say no. Tony Markham - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: [AML] Fw: MN Sunstone Explores Mormons on the Internet: Deseret News Date: 19 Aug 2001 21:42:14 -0400 Sunstone Explores Mormons on the Internet SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH -- The Internet and the changing demographics of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was the topic for the annual Sunstone Symposium, held Saturday at the WestCoast Hotel in Salt Lake City. Characterized as "a fluid space somewhere between the printed and spoken word" panel moderator, Hugo N. Olaiz, a doctoral candidate at the University of California at Berkely, discussed "Virtually Mormon: Mormons at the Internet." Olaiz suspects the demographics of the church members using the Internet are younger and more liberal than the general population of the Mormon church. He sees church net users seeming to base their judgement more on content, rather than on the author's status. General manager of LDS.net, an unofficial church web site, Scot Denhalter said the anonymity of the Web gives users a kind of equality. " There's simply no assurance of what you read on the internet is scholarly or true," Denhalter cautioned. "Web users can't hear your tone of voice in a message and the validity of what you're reading is always in question." Web staffs often experience manpower limitations that create some mediocre content. "Three people can't handle the big dreams you may have," he said of his own Web site company. Olaiz would like to see a study done on the Church and Web usage. Panelists agreed genealogical work is the best and has limitless opportunities on the Internet. However, they did express hope that the Church would soon let wards and stake put Web sites up again. The Church asked for all unofficial web sites taken down last winter until some standards could be established. Panelist, Mark Fisher, co-founder and Web manager of Mormon Links, classified all LDS Web users into six categories. He believes LDS Web sites are needed for children, new members and investigators. A fourth panelist, Scott G. Kenney, founding publisher and editor of Sunstone Magazine, said an intriguing Web site would be one relating to Church history. Kenney is currently working on a new Sunstone Web site on Mormon history, http://www.saintswithouthalos.com. Source: Sunstone panel looks at LDS Web use Deseret News 12Aug01 I4 http://www.deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,295017233,00.html By Lynn Arave: Deseret News staff writer >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: [AML] Fw: MN Benson Gristmill Pageant Tells Little-Known Tooele Story: Salt Lake Tribune 11Aug01 US UT SLC D6 Date: 19 Aug 2001 21:44:04 -0400 Benson Gristmill Pageant Tells Little-Known Tooele Story STANSBURY PARK, UTAH -- The Old Benson gristmill came to life with light, music and sound as a panoramic sunset gave way to the Big Dipper for the sixth annual Benson Gristmill Pageant. The 135-member costumed cast told the history of hardship and conflict in Tooele with horse-drawn wagons, local livestock and a three-story wooden mill constructed in the early 1850's. "If we are actors in a drama, as the Bard would have us believe, then certainly Latter-day Saints have produced a script and players as dramatic as there have ever been," wrote Carl Arrington in a 1977 New Era magazine story that traced the roots of pageants and road shows held throughout Utah. "The Mormon story is a complete drama with characters, conflicts, action, morality, tragedy and comedy," Arrington wrote. Christie Steadman, the pageant producer, said the idea for the Tooele production came in 1996 while they were looking for ways to celebrate Utah's centennial statehood. "We decided to write it ourselves around the events in Toole County history," she said. "The Lee family, some of the first settlers of Tooele County, had a lot of information and we took the literary license to make it into a story line." "It took us a year to write it. We were rehearsing the first scenes as we wrote the end," she said. The pageant is sponsored by Tooele County and the Benson Gristmill Historic Site and tells stories of the Pony Express, the election of the Liberal Party that overturned the Mormon control of the community, Goshute Indians, the Gold Rush and the ethnic origins of the miners and workers of the Tooele Valley Railroad. A highlight in the production is a story of the 1892 Polynesian Pioneer Day in the settlement of Iosepa. Music for the pageant was written by Gary Swan and the two-hour-long pageant is narrated by writer, Maxine Grimm. It begins Thursday night at 8:45 p.m. and will run until Monday. Sources: Pioneer Utah Comes to Life in Pageant Salt Lake Tribune 11Aug01 D6 http://www.sltrib.com/08112001/utah/121417.htm By Tom Wharton: Salt Lake Tribune >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: RE: [AML] Medved's Arguments Date: 20 Aug 2001 09:37:42 -0600 When we talk about that mythic beast, Hollywood, everyone leaves out the = most important motivating factor. Hollywood, at its most reductive, is a = community of people who want to make movies. That's the bottom line. Do they want to make money? Of course, because that's how you keep score, = but also, most importantly, because that's what makes it possible for you = to make more movies. Do you want an Oscar? Of course, because an Oscar = generally ensures that you're going to be in demand, and you're therefore = going to make more movies. Do you do coke? Certainly; it energizes you = to keep making movies (you lie to yourself).=20 I know this sounds mundane, but it's also true. What motivates Hollywood = is the desire to make movies, preferably good ones. If they're now making = more PG-13 than R, it's because that business decision seems likely to = make it possible to make more movies in the future. =20 Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] More Info on Eugene England Date: 20 Aug 2001 10:08:48 -0500 Folks, I've had several people post information on Gene England's memorial service this Saturday, apparently not realizing that this information was already included in the composite post from Ronn Blankenship. Rather than continue to repost this information, let me simply draw everyone's attention to Ronn's post. (If you have additional information not contained in this post, then of course you should feel free to send that information to the List.) Jonathan Langford AML-List Moderator - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Savage" Subject: Re: [AML] LDS Booksellers Convention Date: 20 Aug 2001 09:42:14 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- > > I learned about the series of books that will be coming out based on > _God's Army_. The first is the novelization of the film, written by > Geoffrey Card, son of Orson Scott, due out in two months. After that two > more books are slated for next year which start a series of books about > each main character from the film: _Sister Fronk's Story_, written by > Deanne Blackhurst, and _Elder Dalton's Story_, written by J. Scott > Bronson. Just as a fun FYI, Deanne (Savage) Blackhurst, who is writing the Sister Fronk novel, is my sister. So we have a tie between Excel and Covenant. Jeffrey S Savage - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: [AML] Fw: MN Noted Mormon Author and Intellectual Eugene England Dead: England Family 19Aug01 US UT Prov A2 Date: 20 Aug 2001 14:36:12 -0400 Noted Mormon Author and Intellectual Eugene England Dead PROVO, UTAH -- Mormon author and intellecutal G. Eugene England, died Friday at his home in Provo, Utah at about 10:30 am after a six-month struggle with brain cancer. His family has released the following obituary. Mormon News plans its own obituary later this week. Surrounded by his wife, Charlotte, and their six children, G. Eugene England, 68, died at home August 17, 2001, after a six-month struggle with brain cancer. Gene England was born in Logan, Utah, July 22, 1933, to George Eugene and Dora Rose Hartvigsen England. Gene grew up on a wheat farm in Downey, Idaho. A brilliant and persistent man, he convinced Charlotte Ann Hawkins to marry him in the Salt Lake LDS Temple on Dec 22, 1953. As newlyweds, they served a mission to Samoa for The Church of Jesus Christ of Later-day Saints. Inspired by the teachings and example of Jesus Christ and influenced by Lowell Bennion, together Gene and Charlotte led lives of generosity, service, creativity, and profound faith. They have run an open house, always making room for friends and strangers. Countless lives have felt their influence for good. After serving as a captain in the Air Force, Gene was a Danforth Fellow at Stanford University, where he received a Ph.D. in English literature. He was Dean of Academic Affairs at St. Olaf's College in Northfield, Minnesota, but he always preferred teaching over administrating. He taught at St. Olaf's, the LDS Institutes of Religion at Stanford Univ. and the Univ. of Utah, and the English department at Brigham Young Univ. for 22 years until his retirement in 1998, and finally at Utah Valley State College as Writer-in-Residence and director of Study Abroad. Gene has served as a branch president, a bishop and in several bishoprics. Until recently he was a Gospel Doctrine teacher in the Pleasant View 1st Ward. A person of remarkable intelligence and faith, Gene never made anyone feel stupid or unworthy. Idealistic in his desire to continue the conversation between more conservative and liberal positions, he served as a bridge over troubled waters in the Mormon intellectual community. He naively assigned the best intentions to people, even those with whom he disagreed. As a founding editor of Dialogue and a ongoing contributor to Sunstone, he promoted Mormon scholarship and writing, especially the personal essay. A fine poet himself, he authored several books of personal essays and compiled and edited several collections of Mormon Literature. Before his health failed, Gene especially enjoyed fly-fishing with his friend Doug Thayer, remembering childhood follies with Bert Wilson, seeing the best theatre in London, leading willing victims on impossible hikes, convincing people to watch, again, one of his favorite movies with him, telling stories to his grandchildren (Beowulf and Sir Gawain and the Green Knight were favorites), and being at the cabin he built with Charlotte. Gene's family includes his wife, Charlotte H. England, his sister, Ann England Barker (Duane A. Barker), his six children, Katherine England (Paul Nelson), Jody England Hansen (Mike Hansen), George Mark England, Jennifer England (Mark J. Asplund), Rebecca England (Jordan A. Kimball), and Jane England. Their 14 grandchildren are Jordan, Charlotte, Jacob, Anna, Hannah, Amelia, Christian, Bronte, Joseph, Porter, Janey, Maya, Isaac, Katy Rose. The family appreciates the love and affection people have expressed for Gene. The family has established the Eugene and Charlotte England Memorial Education Fund at Zion's Bank to honor Gene and continue his work, especially his interest in Mormon studies. Those who can are invited to contribute. Gene England was buried in a private graveside sevice Aug 18 at Wasatch Lawns in Salt Lake City. Friends are invited to honor Gene at a memorial service that will be held 1 pm Saturday Aug 25 at the Provo Tabernacle 100 S. University Ave., Provo, Utah. Source: Noted Mormon Author and Intellectual Eugene England Dead England Family 19Aug01 A2 >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Darvell Hunt" Subject: [AML] Screenwriting Date: 20 Aug 2001 14:03:39 -0500 I have recently decided to seriously consider shifting my focus from novel writing to screenwriting. I definitely watch more movies than read books and I think there may currently be a good opportunity to break into this market right now. Awhile back I took a screenwriting/novel writing course from Dave Trottier at UVSC and have since ordered his book _The Screenwriter's Bible_. With Richard Dutcher, and hopefully others paving the way, the market for regular LDS films could very well be on the rise. I'd like to contribute what I can to this new medium. Is anyone else on the list doing this sort of thing? I'd like to learn more more about writing scripts. I'd like to convert my current novel into a screenplay. I would welcome any suggestions that anyone could offer on this matter. And before you ask, no, this is not just a whim, I've considered doing this for many years. But, like I've stated in other posts to the AML list, I didn't really want to get into the mainstream market. Now I might have the chance to write screenplays for the LDS market. I don't think I can pass that up. Thanks, Darvell Hunt Saratoga Springs, UT _____________________________________________ Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! http://www.MyOwnEmail.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "???n ??e" Subject: Re: [AML] Spiritual Pornography Date: 20 Aug 2001 14:02:50 -0700 I find your definition of pornography far too confusing and subjective. You've made it a matter of the eye of the beholder, which provides license for anything to pass, i.e, one man's poison... The first point I want to make is to provide a definition of addiction, and at the same time concur with you that you are not likely a pornography addict. Before that, the phrase, "the random porn images that fall into my line of sight" is confusing. Pornography, of the type you seem to be describing, never falls into my line of sight. I spend a large part of every day on the web, data processing and web development being both my vocation and avocation. Porn doesn't fall into my line of sight there. I never see it. I hear stories from people who did a search and clicked on a supposedly harmless link only to be exposed to disgusting images. With all the time I spend on the web, it has never happened to me. So, I find it rather confusing for someone to talk about happening on it by accident. Magazines don't fall on my desk from nowhere. I'm not making an accusation here, just trying to understand how random images fall into one's line of sight. Are you talking about accidents, or occasional partaking with your consent? An answer is not owed me, but it seems to me that the answer to this question has a great deal to do with the point of view you've expressed. The presence of addiction does not depend on the inherent goodness or badness of a thing. A person can be addicted to something good or bad. A person can partake of something evil, even often, and not be addicted to it. He can be addicted to something he not only partakes of regularly, but is a necessity, such as in food addiction. Addiction is present when a person becomes powerless over something, when, despite compelling reasons to avoid it, he returns to it again and again. Without a compelling reason to avoid something, there is no addiction. It's only a hobby. The most often-used example of addiction is addiction to alcohol. A social drinker is only an addict when a compelling reason to not drink is present, such as developing health problems, endangering others by driving drunk, or even a profound belief that it is wrong to consume alcohol. For example, a man who drinks alcohol learns that he has a medical condition that is aggravated by alcohol consumption. If he decides to stop drinking and can make that decision stick, he is not and never was an alcoholic. It is interesting to note that a profound belief against drinking alcohol exists for believing Mormons, and therefore, a Mormon who drinks regularly is an alcoholic, by definition. Addiction also requires the presence of unmanageability, defined as that part of the "compelling reasons" equation that is the set of negative consequences that have happened as a result of indulgence. Someone into whose line of sight falls random pornographic images is not likely an addict. To be an addict, you would have to have evidence of both powerlessness and unmanageability. My wife often says, when she means to say that a room is stuffy, "Could we open a window? I'm addicted to air." It's a cute thing to say, but not really accurate. She has no compelling reason to cease or cut back on partaking of air, and her breathing has not caused any unmanageability in her life. Since one can be addicted to food, sex, pornography, alcohol, drugs, relationships, etc., the definition of addiction is generally irrelevant to the identification or definition of pornography. Addressing the topic of pornography addiction and pornography definition is very difficult, because it's pretty clear what alcohol is. It can be measured. It's not clear what pornography is, and I don't believe your definition has made it any clearer. On the contrary, if you are trying to define what pornography is, I believe you have confused the issue more. There is definitely a layer of subjectivity surrounding what constitutes pornography for you or for me. If speculations about Michelangelo's orientation are true, then he and I have something in common, and I'm not talking about artistic talent. I don't sculpt or paint, but I do write, and I have written scenes involving two men being physically intimate with each other. I don't believe I've written pornography, but it has more to do with the context of those scenes, as opposed to being merely about the fact that I am homosexually oriented. If Michelangelo were gay, and his homosexual feelings contributed to any aspect of "David," I concur that it is irrelevant to the context. If anything, it gives him an edge in his attempt to make the sculpture beautiful, but it doesn't make it pornographic. It also doesn't mean that a heterosexual sculptor couldn't have done a better job. Add to this confusion about definitions the fact that the knowledge of Michelangelo's orientation would have a different meaning for me in appreciating "David" than for you, even if you can imagine what it would be like to be attracted to men. In that same way, I can probably write same-sex scenes of physical intimacy a lot more accurately than most men here. Some may be better writers than me and could make it more believable to an audience of people who wouldn't know if it were accurate or not. I could intend to make it painful or poignant, and to other men like me, it might be, but "straight" men might see it as completely prurient. My point here is that art involves measurements of the artist's talent for creating, the patron's talent for appreciation, the artist's life experiences, the patron's life experiences, the artist's motives, the patron's motives, and some elusive demarcation of whether it has any redeeming value. With so many factors, a definition of pornography that is related to context or intent is impossible. I do not think we can make a defining statement about what pornography is. As used by many, "pornography" is merely shorthand for something else entirely. It is shorthand for the various ways we might commit sexual sin in relation to other human beings. Jesus said that whosoever looks at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Some men can look at nude women without any lust at all. I'm one of them. Frankly, I don't see what y'all see in them. If my level of lust were the only moral consideration, pictures of nude women would not be pornographic to me. There is also the consideration of the harm to women I might be condoning by supporting an industry that clearly abuses and promotes abuse of women. Naturally, I doubt that Jesus' statement was intended to excuse me from looking at men to lust after them. I accept his use of gender identificaton to be in the universal sense. More hardcore pornography goes beyond solo poses into the realm of immoral acts photographed and filmed, whether simulated or not, promoting sins that have been clearly condemned by those we believe have the authority speak for God. Can we be guiltless for lending our support? In my opinion, your definition of pornography as anything that cheapens the human experience cheapens the gravity of these matters, but I would not go so far as to say that for you to say so, you've exposed me to pornography. I also don't accept the more strict definition of pornography being any nudity or sexuality in art, or elsewhere. I saw several naked men this morning at the gym while I showered. I didn't lust. My thoughts remained clean. I wasn't promoting their abuse by my patronage of the locker room. I wasn't witnessing or encouraging them to commit fornication or adultery. They, like me, were there to shower and get ready for work. I can sympathize with your objections to trivializing or shallow art, but I can't agree with your adding them to the definition of pornography. I saw the Ensign photograph that you disliked so much. It did look rather plastic to me too, but I hardly felt my spirituality assaulted by it. If you did, that's your own business and I hope you won't judge me as lacking in spirituality because I refuse to let something so trivial shake me. I'm the choir director in my ward, a stereotypical calling for me, and I think my choir members look posed. They'd better look posed! Good choir singing requires good posture and paying attention to the director (I like anything that makes me the center of attention). I want them to be nicely dressed, because it matters to the presentation. Good lighting doesn't hurt either. Their faces should reflect the message of the music. If we're up to standard and someone were to take a photograph, I daresay people would think they had been posed. Of all candid shots that could be taken, a candid shot of a good choir would look contrived, unless the photographer was intentionally trying to catch a tenor picking his nose. Rex Goode www.ldsr.org _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RichardDutcher@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] LDS Booksellers Convention Date: 20 Aug 2001 17:35:05 EDT Quick note: Contrary to Dean Hale's comment at the bookseller's convention, Zion Films is NOT looking for scripts. Richard has three wonderful screenplays lined up and waiting to be produced. We've got enough to keep us busy. Thanks, Emily Pearson Managing Director Zion Films - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "R.W. Rasband" Subject: [AML] Sunstone 2001 Date: 20 Aug 2001 18:22:40 -0700 (PDT) [MOD: Without meaning to quash R. W. Rasband's query, I need to add that in order to be truly relevant to the List, comments should be connected to Mormon lit in some way--either as part of the original (Sunstone) context, or in the "spin" given by the reporter.] Did anyone attend this year's Sunstone symposium? Anyone have any enlightening comments? R.W. Rasband Heber City, UT rrasband@yahoo.com Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $0.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] LDS Publishers vs. National Publishers Date: 21 Aug 2001 00:07:23 -0500 At 01:53 AM 8/17/01, Anna Wight wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Scott and Marny Parkin" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 11:44 PM >Subject: Re: [AML] LDS Publishers vs. National Publishers > > > > Anna Wight wrote: > > > > > > I believe Proffit and Wight and Hume can reach both their literary and > > > > their financial (read "copies sold") goals in whatever markets they > > > > pursue. > > > > > >Just out of curiousity (here's my geneology side kicking in) who is >Wight? > > > > I was thinking of you. You write, right? Or did I get that wrong? > > > > Scott Parkin > >Hi Scott, > >Yes I do write, not under the Wight name. But it went completely over my >head that you were talking about me. And here I thought someone in my >husbands family was a writer. Thus proving again the old adage that two Wights can make a wrong . . . --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Irreantum fiction contest winners Date: 21 Aug 2001 00:55:53 -0600 Marianne Hales Harding wrote: > > Survey: how many of the women writers on > this list get the proverbial indulgent pat on the head when it comes to > matters career? And I know that the men will cry foul because they get it > too but somehow I have to say that we women seem to get it more. I'm sure > you'll correct me if I'm wrong... Not correcting you, and not speaking for men generally. All I can say is that no one I know would dare pat me on the head and say "How's that little writing thing you do coming?" At least, no one would make that mistake twice. They'd get straightened out real quick. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: owner-aml-list@lists.xmission.com Date: 21 Aug 2001 11:29:46 -0600 > >The Church's official position on abortion is to decry, but not prohibit. >The Church recognizes that abortion may be necessary to save the mother's >life on occasion. Members are very strongly encouraged to pray and discuss >the issue with bishops and/or stake leaders before having an abortion. > >What that means, as someone wrote in Sunstone years ago is that, given >the status of law, the Church's official position would equal abortion on >demand. The article was part of a roundtable and I only read the pull-out >quote (got diverted from reading the rest of the articles, go back to it >some day, came out in the mid-80s I think) so I didn't get the reasoning >behind it, but I've thought about it for a long time and the reason would >likely be that the Church doesn't have an official Spirit Compliance >Checker. We're not asked to get a revelation about it from the prophet or >stake president, but directly from the Lord, and the Church doesn't >doublecheck that decision, which is a tacit admission that, while the >Church deplores abortion, the Lord might inspire someone to have one. >Very troubling to people who find abortion absolutely evil. Sender: owner-aml-list@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: aml-list ******************** Woa! I think that before we look to "Sunstone" or the "White Stone Foundation" to interpret "The Church's official position on abortion," Maybe we should read the before and after section from whence all the rhetoric, about these things, is coming. Prior to the Nineties, the Bishop's handbook said, In the case of abortion= the guilty parties (I'm uncertain if this includes the doctor or not)= should be brought before a Bishops court and excommunicated. Now it says If the abortion was to save the mothers life, or if the pregnancy was due to rape or incest, the question of whether or not the mother would deliver the baby should be left up to the family, and the Bishop is not required to excommunicate. You will notice it says, not required to excommunicate; it doesn't say = shall not excommunicate, and it certainly doesn't say abortion is alright= or good or justified, it just says it's a family, or personal matter. This directive gives the= individual or the family and the Bishop just a bit more agency in the matter, but certainly does not relieve anyone from any consequences for their actions. I think the main reason for this change was to take some of the heavy responsibility for the actions of the flock, off the already overloaded Bishop's shoulders. The above quote is my recollection of my reading and understanding of it= when it first came out a number of years ago. I have not heard of any= changes since then but I haven't been in a responsible position of= leadership since I left the "Mission Field" and moved to "Zion." My point is: Before we concoct any life and death moralistic dramas involving Church doctrine, we should be sure we have our sources straight. We certainly shouldn't rely on information coming from well-meaning, members or non-members, whose firsthand knowledge of such things is at best questionable. When we want to know what the church's official position is on= a point of doctrine or morals, especially if we are going to write about it,= we should go directly to the official source and get the latest word. A= good place to start, with a question like this one, is your Bishop. If he= doesn't know, I'm sure he wouuld be more than willing to find out for you.= I'm not sure I would even use the Ensign as a quoatable source for= doctrine, unless it was from the first presidencies messages. =20 Bill Willson - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terri Reid" Subject: Re: [AML] Irreantum fiction contest winners Date: 22 Aug 2001 00:47:04 -0700 This is such a sore spot with me (pats on the head.) I find that - except for you folks - I don't share my writing successes with members of the church. (Well, actually with members of my ward.) Although there have been a few people who encourage and support, I have found that there are many more (or perhaps it's because they are so vocal) that belittle or disregard successes with things like: 1. Oh, well, I could write too - if I wanted too. 2. I don't think women should be trying to earn a living - if they do, their children will grow up to be delinquents. 3. This doesn't seem that good to me. If I had written it... AAAARRRRGGGGHHHHHH!!!!! So, do you smell a bushel burning? It's me hiding my light! Terri - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Sunstone 2001 Date: 21 Aug 2001 12:11:26 -0600 R.W. Rasband wrote: >Did anyone attend this year's Sunstone symposium? Anyone have any >enlightening comments? I did--or at least the first two days' worth. I have some comments, but I don't know whether they're enlightening or not. I've been crafting a short e-essay tentatively titled "Under the Tent: Musings of a Sunstone Novice" to try to post on this list, but I'm not sure it really falls squarely enough within the framework of this list. It's one conservative Mormon's impressions of the event, and acts more as a cultural comment than a literary one, though my core point focuses around the stories we tell each other and ourselves about ourselves. We shall see. Overall, I thought it was quite fun. I especially liked the panel with Richard Dutcher and his aggressive approach to Mormon storytelling. I understand that some unfortunate (and possibly quite inaccurate) reports of his stance have been published in some of the Utah newspapers. Richard did (rightly) suggest that his work is a new kind of Mormon story within the world of film. He did not say that the work being done (now or in the past) is unworthy of comment or respect as I have heard reported. Short impression of the whole event: an intriguing venue that has the power to both enlighten and enrage. A noble goal that succeeds to different degrees in different panels. Some of the most interesting comments came from those who are not part of our little community, and are thus freed of cultural/ideological axes to grind. Not everyone would enjoy their visit to Sunstone, but everyone who goes will find much of value to to think about--whether they accept the slant of the presenters or not. Sort of like Mormon literature--not every story appeals to every reader, but I think there is value to be had for those willing to trust their own thoughts and accept that some stories do not represent the world I choose to live in. Still, in discussing those stories, we can learn more about ourselves and others. Which I think has great value. FWIW. Scott Parkin - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Screenwriting Date: 21 Aug 2001 12:10:58 -0600 Darvell Hunt wrote: With > Richard Dutcher, and hopefully others paving the way, the market for > regular LDS films could very well be on the rise. I'd like to contribute > what I can to this new medium. Welcome to the club. Trottier's book is my Bible. > > Is anyone else on the list doing this sort of thing? I'd like to learn more > more about writing scripts. I'd like to convert my current novel into a > screenplay. I'm turning my Moroni Smi8th novel into a screenplay and having a blast. Why don't you consider joining my list LDScreenwriters@yahoogroups.com Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tony Markham Subject: Re: [AML] Spiritual Pornography Date: 21 Aug 2001 14:44:31 -0400 Rex, Nice to hear from you again. It's been a while since you've shared with the list and I think we all miss your contributions, that swing both ways between insight and humor. I will try to address a couple of questions you raised. ???n ??e [Rex Goode] wrote: > So, I find it rather > confusing for someone to talk about happening on it by accident. Magazines > don't fall on my desk from nowhere. I'm not making an accusation here, just > trying to understand how random images fall into one's line of sight. Are > you talking about accidents, or occasional partaking with your consent? An > answer is not owed me, but it seems to me that the answer to this question > has a great deal to do with the point of view you've expressed. In the last six months or so I have started finding stuff in the mail. It's promotional and disguised to look like any other mass-mailed item. I tend to open things that are addressed to me and there you go. I throw them away when as I see what they are, and have learned to recognize a few of the companies by name and will toss them without opening. I also filled out a form from the Post Office that will stop these promo porno packets from being delivered. Also once I was at a barber shop strapped in and listening to the snip snip of scissors. This guy walks in off the street and starts trying to sell my barber a stack of bootlegged videos. He kind of tosses them on my chest to spread them out so my barber could look at the titles. The cover photos were explicit and there you go. These guys were loud Italians and ended up screaming at each other over the price and kept asking me if the other one was being unreasonable. I felt like I was in the middle of a Sopranos episode. This is how random images of porn have occasionally fallen into my line of sight. And then you brought up a lot of good points about addiction that I can't address because I have no first-hand knowledge about any sorts of addictions (except chocolate) and was grateful that you shared these insights. > Addressing the topic of pornography addiction and pornography definition is > very difficult, because it's pretty clear what alcohol is. It can be > measured. It's not clear what pornography is, and I don't believe your > definition has made it any clearer. On the contrary, if you are trying to > define what pornography is, I believe you have confused the issue more. Mostly I was expressing sadness that people take a few things that are easily measurable, like alcohol, and saying that if a movie contains these things then it must be porn. Usually nudity and sexual content. That so many of my fellow Saints use these items as an indicator for porn just makes me sad. > In my opinion, your definition of pornography as anything that cheapens the > human experience cheapens the gravity of these matters, but I would not go > so far as to say that for you to say so, you've exposed me to pornography. Whew! I don't need that particular millstone. > I can sympathize with your objections to trivializing or shallow art, but I > can't agree with your adding them to the definition of pornography. My definition would tend to encompass a great deal (re: Sturgeon's Law). But I'd restrict it by only including the shallow art that targets sacred moments. > I'm the > choir director in my ward, a stereotypical calling for me, LOL > and I think my > choir members look posed. They'd better look posed! Good choir singing > requires good posture and paying attention to the director (I like anything > that makes me the center of attention). I want them to be nicely dressed, > because it matters to the presentation. Good lighting doesn't hurt either. > Their faces should reflect the message of the music. If we're up to standard > and someone were to take a photograph, I daresay people would think they had > been posed. Of all candid shots that could be taken, a candid shot of a good > choir would look contrived, unless the photographer was intentionally trying > to catch a tenor picking his nose. I refer you to the cover of Harry Nilsson's tribute album, "For the Love of Harry" A truly inspirational photo of a choir. But for all the reasons you mention, I have never wanted to be in a choir. For me, singing is a personal joy that is utterly ruined by being told how to dress and stand, being told exactly when to breathe, being dictated to in every nuance of my worshipful expression of song. Is it any wonder that there are such great choirs in our church? Tony Markham - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dallas Robbins" Subject: Re: [AML] Screenwriting Date: 21 Aug 2001 19:58:39 +0000 I haven't read much on screenplay writing, but that is something I plan to pursue in the future. A standard book that I highly recommend is "Story" by Robert McKee. He is considered on the best on how to write a screenplay, and the book is an enjoyable read even if you are not a screenwriter. Dallas Robbins cloudhill@yahoo.com Harvest - An Online Magazine for the LDS Community. www.harvestmagazine.com >From: "Darvell Hunt" > > >I have recently decided to seriously consider shifting my focus from novel >writing to screenwriting. I definitely watch more movies than read books >and I think there may currently be a good opportunity to break into this >market right now. > >Awhile back I took a screenwriting/novel writing course from Dave Trottier >at UVSC and have since ordered his book _The Screenwriter's Bible_. With >Richard Dutcher, and hopefully others paving the way, the market for >regular LDS films could very well be on the rise. I'd like to contribute >what I can to this new medium. > >Is anyone else on the list doing this sort of thing? I'd like to learn more >more about writing scripts. I'd like to convert my current novel into a >screenplay. > >I would welcome any suggestions that anyone could offer on this matter. And >before you ask, no, this is not just a whim, I've considered doing this for >many years. But, like I've stated in other posts to the AML list, I didn't >really want to get into the mainstream market. >Now I might have the chance to write screenplays for the LDS market. I >don't think I can pass that up. > >Thanks, >Darvell Hunt _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Willson" Subject: [AML] Sources of Information (was: Listening to the Spirit) (Repost) Date: 21 Aug 2001 15:15:08 -0600 [MOD: For some reason, this post originally came through (on my machine at least) without its proper thread title and return address. On your machine, it may have also come through with some sentences missing. So I'm reposting it. Please let me know if this version seems to have any problems.] >Harlow S. Clark wrote > >The Church's official position on abortion is to decry, but not prohibit. >The Church recognizes that abortion may be necessary to save the mother's >life on occasion. Members are very strongly encouraged to pray and discuss >the issue with bishops and/or stake leaders before having an abortion. > >What that means, as someone wrote in Sunstone years ago is that, given >the status of law, the Church's official position would equal abortion on >demand. The article was part of a roundtable and I only read the pull-out >quote (got diverted from reading the rest of the articles, go back to it >some day, came out in the mid-80s I think) so I didn't get the reasoning >behind it, but I've thought about it for a long time and the reason would >likely be that the Church doesn't have an official Spirit Compliance >Checker. We're not asked to get a revelation about it from the prophet or >stake president, but directly from the Lord, and the Church doesn't >doublecheck that decision, which is a tacit admission that, while the >Church deplores abortion, the Lord might inspire someone to have one. >Very troubling to people who find abortion absolutely evil. ******************** Woa! I think that before we look to "Sunstone" or the "White Stone Foundation" to interpret "The Church's official position on abortion," Maybe we should read the before and after section from whence all the rhetoric, about these things, is coming. Prior to the Nineties, the Bishop's handbook said, In the case of abortion the guilty parties (I'm uncertain if this includes the doctor or not) should be brought before a Bishops court and excommunicated. Now it says If the abortion was to save the mothers life, or if the pregnancy was due to rape or incest, the question of whether or not the mother would deliver the baby should be left up to the family, and the Bishop is not required to excommunicate. You will notice it says, not required to excommunicate; it doesn't say shall not excommunicate, and it certainly doesn't say abortion is alright or good or justified, it just says it's a family, or personal matter. This directive gives the individual or the family and the Bishop just a bit more agency in the matter, but certainly does not relieve anyone from any consequences for their actions. I think the main reason for this change was to take some of the heavy responsibility for the actions of the flock, off the already overloaded Bishop's shoulders. The above quote is my recollection of my reading and understanding of it when it first came out a number of years ago. I have not heard of any changes since then, but I haven't been in a responsible position of leadership since I left the "Mission Field" and moved to "Zion." My point is: Before we concoct any life and death moralistic dramas involving Church doctrine, we should be sure we have our sources straight. We certainly shouldn't rely on information coming from well-meaning, members or non-members, whose firsthand knowledge of such things is at best questionable. When we want to know what the church's official position is on a point of doctrine or morals, especially if we are going to write about it, we should go directly to the official source and get the latest word. A good place to start, with a question like this one, is your Bishop. If he doesn't know, I'm sure he wouuld be more than willing to find out for you. I'm not sure I would even use the Ensign as a quoatable source for doctrine, unless it was from the first presidencies messages. Bill Willson - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Morris Subject: Re: [AML] Screenwriting Date: 21 Aug 2001 14:21:07 -0700 (PDT) --- Darvell Hunt wrote: > > Is anyone else on the list doing this sort of thing? > I'd like to learn more > more about writing scripts. I'd like to convert my > current novel into a > screenplay. > > I would welcome any suggestions that anyone could > offer on this matter. I'm anyone. Not that I have amazing screenwriting credentials. But I have written (or doctored) four screenplays in collaboration with a friend and made two of those screenplays in to short (20 min.) films. So this is not 'professional' advice, but rather some observations from someone who is much more comfortable in the world of narrative fiction, but dabbled in screenwriting. Observation 1: Writing good dialogue is hard. You can have the most amazing concept in the world, yet it falls flat because the dialogue isn't good. I don't have any tips, except read your scenes aloud a lot and read them to people whose ear you trust. Observation 1A: Writing good dialogue is hard, but don't bash yourself up too much if what you've written seems fake. I am always surprised to read scripts for plays/films I've seen that I thought had fabulous dialogue and find that on the printed page it doesn't sparkle quite as much. Unless you are Oscar Wilde, then it flows and leaps off the printed page as well. Observation 2: It's hecka easy to telegraph stuff. Sometimes this becomes the director or editors fault, but even in the screenplay it becomes way too easy to telegraph important plot movements. Continuity and flow is good, but resist the temptation to add that clever piece of dialogue or visual symbol that reveals too much about the way ahead. That said, some of the most satisfying writing takes place when you go back and rewrite earlier scenes to provide better continuity and/or character development for the payoff in the ending scenes. Observation 3: Pacing is difficult, but let scenes be the length they need to be. If the writing, acting and directing is excellent, then the scene length doesn't matter. Certainly you want a crisp flow to the screenplay, but if every scene is either 3 or 4 minutes long, then something is wrong. Observation 4: Don't say things that can be better represented visually, but don't lay on the visual storytelling to thick. I don't know what else to say about this, except that I loved figuring out how to tell the story in both words and images (and I include gestures and facial expressions as images). The interplay between the two fascinates me. Observation 5: And this holds true even if you're not adapting a novel: Strip down! Even when you're just writing from a few images and scenes in your head, it's easy to inflate the story. I think that it's necessary to develop as much of the story as possible and get to know your characters and the world they are in, but when it comes to the actual screenplay, strip it down. What is absolutely necessary for the audience to know? What scenes really move the plot forward? And what scenes can you include that don't directly move the plot forward but still flesh out story and character in a profound, necessary way? Where's the crucial conflict and what do you need before and after it? My guess is that most of this can be found in any book on screenwriting, but never having read any books on the subject, I thought that I'd just offer up my limited experience. What do the pros have to say? ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "bob/bernice hughes" Subject: Re: [AML] Sunstone 2001 Date: 21 Aug 2001 15:42:57 -0600 I did make it to a couple of sessions. The poetry session of Michael Collings was very nice. I think there were four of us at his session (confirming that poetry is a lost art, but at least there are a few of us poetry lovers left). He presented his most recent book _Elementals_ and had a few copies for sale. As with his earlier books, this one was handbound by himself with a beautiful cosmology motif cloth as the book covering. The sonnets that made up the book (and the reading session) focused heavily on early writings by mormon scientists (e.g. Widtsoe) and although he avoided end-of-line rhymes in the sonnet sequences, the lines were filled with alliteration and assonance. You could sense some of the dark side of Stephen King's influence in some of the verse (Collings is one of the most authoritative critics of King), but the beauty of the overall work outshone any darkness that tried to creep in. The other session was with Holly Welker presenting a chapter from her Iowa dissertation, which was basically her Taiwan missionary memoir. I thought from the abstract that she would talk a bit more about Taiwan and Buddhism (two of my other loves) but it ended up being a feminist complaint session. (BTW, Holly is also a poet, you will find some of her work in BYU Studies). Bob Hughes - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: luannstaheli Subject: Re: [AML] Screenwriting Date: 21 Aug 2001 16:54:50 -0600 I've written three film scripts (2 LDS and one horror/suspense) and had several Hollywood producers look at them, but nothing has sold yet. My husband works in the business or I likely wouldn't have had so many options to even have them read. It's a tough business to break into. I also met with the Church film committee and introduced myself as a writer, but no sales there either. So, I've gone back to concentrating on the mainstream YA novels I'm writing. Good luck with whatever you decide, but know that no area of the writing business is a sure thing to immediate publication/sales. Darvell Hunt wrote: > I have recently decided to seriously consider shifting my focus from novel > writing to screenwriting. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] Screenwriting Date: 21 Aug 2001 18:32:15 -0500 At 02:03 PM 8/20/01, you wrote: >I have recently decided to seriously consider shifting my focus from novel >writing to screenwriting. I definitely watch more movies than read books >and I think there may currently be a good opportunity to break into this >market right now. > >Awhile back I took a screenwriting/novel writing course from Dave Trottier >at UVSC and have since ordered his book _The Screenwriter's Bible_. With >Richard Dutcher, and hopefully others paving the way, the market for >regular LDS films could very well be on the rise. I'd like to contribute >what I can to this new medium. > >Is anyone else on the list doing this sort of thing? I'd like to learn more >more about writing scripts. I'd like to convert my current novel into a >screenplay. > >I would welcome any suggestions that anyone could offer on this matter. And >before you ask, no, this is not just a whim, I've considered doing this for >many years. But, like I've stated in other posts to the AML list, I didn't >really want to get into the mainstream market. >Now I might have the chance to write screenplays for the LDS market. I >don't think I can pass that up. > >Thanks, >Darvell Hunt >Saratoga Springs, UT Yes, several of us here on the AML list have written screenplays or otherwise done things in the film and/or video area, with various levels of success. ;-) If Jonathan will permit me, I might mention that there is another list, called "LDScreenwriters" devoted to this topic. If anyone's interested, send a blank message to . (If that's not clickable, do the usual cut-and-paste into the "To:" field of a blank e-mail message.) --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Bigelow Subject: [AML] Sheri Dew interview questions Date: 21 Aug 2001 16:36:34 -0600 [MOD: Because of the tight timeframe on this, I encourage anyone responding to this post to include a cc: to Chris Bigelow at Chris.Bigelow@UnicityNetwork.com.] If you have time and interest, I would love some feedback on the following draft of an invitation and questions to Sheri Dew for an Irreantum interview. Let me know if you can think of any additional good questions and/or have any suggestions for how to refine or streamline what I've already got. I will mail this to her on Monday, 8/27, so only responses received by then will be helpful. Thanks in advance! Chris Bigelow The Association for Mormon Letters P.O. Box 51364 Provo, UT 84605-1364 (801) 714-1326 * irreantum2@cs.com August 24, 2001 Sheri Dew Deseret Book P. O. Box 30178 Salt Lake City, UT 84130 Dear Sister Dew: Greetings from the Association for Mormon Letters, the nonprofit organization devoted to analyzing and promoting quality Mormon literature. Irreantum, our quarterly literary magazine, has published a series of interviews ranging over the full cultural spectrum, including Robert Van Wagoner, Brian Evenson, Robert Kirby, Mary Clyde, Dave Wolverton, Richard Dutcher, Margaret Young, Anne Perry, Rachel Nunes, and Dean Hughes. We would like to invite you to be the subject of our next interview. We've attached a list of questions for you to consider answering. We normally conduct our interviews via e-mail, so we would invite you to type your responses and e-mail them to us. Our interviewees have enjoyed this less-intrusive, low-pressure mode because it allows them to be more thoughtful in their responses and to rewrite or edit, luxuries that aren't available in face-to-face verbal interviews. You are certainly welcome to change or skip any questions. If you agree to the interview, here are two more things to consider: 1) We would ask for one or more recent photos we could select from to run with the interview. 2) If you have any pieces of your own writing that we could run as a companion piece to the interview, that would be most welcome. Our first choice would be memoir or fiction, but we would be happy to consider anything else, including works in progress. We look forward to hearing from you soon regarding this interview. If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask. Thanks in advance for your consideration. Best Regards, Christopher K. Bigelow Managing editor, Irreantum Irreantum Questions for Sheri Dew First, tell us what your position is at Deseret Book and what you do. What are the most fun, rewarding things about your job, and what are the most difficult and mundane? Tell us about how you got into publishing. What early experiences and education helped prepare you? What encounters and opportunities led to your career? You've done some writing yourself, most notably the biography of President Gordon B. Hinckley. What else have you published? What are your personal feelings and experiences related to the actual writing process? Do you have any current writing projects? Any future hopes and plans for your own writing? Talk to us about yourself as a reader. Is a busy book editor able to find time and energy to read outside the job? If so, what kinds of things? What authors have made the biggest personal impact on you? What role would you ideally like to see fiction and other creative, artistic writing play in Mormon culture? To what degree are the creative literary arts currently living up to their potential in Mormonism? Trace for us what you know about the history of fiction publishing at Deseret Book. What have been some of the biggest disappointments and successes? Is the company currently decreasing, increasing, or maintaining its fiction output? What can you tell us about the company's fiction strategy? Let's talk more about the relatively recent phenomenon of Mormon historical fiction becoming so popular. What are the good results of that, and what concerns you about it, if anything? What do you think about this fiction's teaching value, entertainment value, and literary quality? Covenant Communications has built a fairly dynamic, successful fiction-publishing program. What are your observations about their efforts? How has the competition affected the marketplace? Some people long for another independent Mormon book publisher to colonize the temperate territory between the tropics of Deseret and Covenant and the pole of Signature. Such a publisher would perhaps try to avoid both elitist literary books and formulaic or genre books. Does such an outlook fit into any kind of paradigm for Mormon publishing you can conceive of? Could such a venture be successful? What directions would you like to see Mormon fiction go in the future? Any particular genres you think are ripe for treatments within the Mormon market? What would be your idea of the "Great Mormon Novel"? Would Deseret Book be the place to publish it? Why or why not? You've been involved in trying to move Deseret Book's product into the national marketplace, particularly through the Shadow Mountain imprint. To what degree is fiction a part of that program? What have been the most noteworthy challenges and successes in that effort? Let's talk about the role of the creative literary arts as it relates to the mission of the Church. As far as "proclaiming the gospel," what do you think about efforts to present Mormon stories to a national audience? Must such attempts be missionary-minded, or is it valid to portray the Mormon experience with an emphasis on accuracy and realism, with hopes that people will grow in appreciation of us as fellow human beings? Should Mormon fiction writers be trying to gain the trust and respect of national audiences so that readers with diverse backgrounds can develop interest in Mormon-flavored stories, as they have in Jewish, Catholic, Southern, Asian, and many other kinds of "ethnic" stories? As far as "perfecting the Saints," what role can literature play in helping us understand and avoid pitfalls in life? With that goal in mind, is it advisable to take morally challenging journeys through literature? Should Mormon fiction examine flaws and limitations within the Mormon culture and within Mormon individuals? >From your perspective, what are some of the most interesting trends happening right now in Mormon publishing? What are your predictions for the future? # - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: katie@aros.net Subject: RE: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 21 Aug 2001 18:21:48 -0600 (MDT) > I was asking if Weyland or anyone else has > ever > written about the reverse (nonmember guy meets Molly Mormon and converts > to > marry her), because I don't think anyone as yet has mentioned a story > with > _that_ plot. If not, does anyone have a guess why the one formula sells > > _as fiction_ and the other doesn't? > > > > --Ronn! :) > _Trial of the Heart_, by Sierra St. James. Deseret Book, 1999 or so. I posted a review on it a couple of years ago, now available in the review archives, if anyone cares... I didn't see the situation there very plausible, either. Maybe more plausible than some of those early Weyland pieces, but at the end the guy has a dream and he realizes that he really wants to get baptized and marry this girl and raise lots of screaming kids and be really poor, instead of keeping his current lifestyle and his share in the lucrative family wine business. Must've been some dream. --Katie Parker - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Irreantum fiction contest winners Date: 21 Aug 2001 18:29:55 -0600 At 06:08 PM 8/16/01 -0600, you wrote: >the >people around me are not readers and writers and, when >I'm looking for congratulations, they smile >indulgently and say they are glad I'm enjoying my >"little hobby." I appreciate so much the chance to >turn on the computer and feel like I'm among friends >who understand me. As a business owner, I have the same experience--"How nice that you have a cute little business." Well, I suppose we all have attitudes that annoy other people. I was recently back home on vacation, and I couldn't believe that my siblings could spend three solid hours talking about their dogs. Dogs! And they didn't understand why I didn't want their hairy, slobbery pets leaping up on me. I'm just glad that we all have the right to our own opinions. barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BJ Rowley Subject: Re: [AML] LDS Booksellers Convention Date: 21 Aug 2001 19:40:45 -0600 D. Michael Martindale wrote: >I seemed to keep running into author B.J. Rowley the whole time. He's >got a new book out that sounds pretty interesting. He'll have to tell >you the title, because I don't remember it, but it's about a girl who >just missed the prom because her 16th birthday came days after it. She >discovers a way to go back in time, so she returns to prom night now >that she's old enough to attend. > It's called "Sixteen In No Time." It's actually a Time-Warp thing, not a Time-Travel thing. Subtle difference. The girl and her friend age for four days while the world is advancing a mere four minutes. So it looks like time has stopped ... almost. That's how she manages to be 16 in time for the Prom. (if they can convince the folks.) The trick with this book was writing it from a girl's point of view ... VERY tricky business for an old geezer like me. And very scary after all the talk on this list about men writing women's roles, and visa versa. The jury's still out on how well I did. (I printed up a half dozen copies of the manuscript and had all the Mia-Maids in the ward review it. They were quite honest and brutal with their suggestions ... which was a good thing, I guess.) > >I spoke at length with Barry Evans of Evans Book, a wholesale >distributor which concentrates on national distribution of LDS books and >products, and has done a lot with self-published books. Whenever someone >has a dream of doing something new, and wants to bypass the usual >conservative, cautious channels to get it done, the big bottleneck is >always distribution. My impression was that, if you have a product like >a self-published book or something, Evans Book might be a good >distributor to check out. > I'll put a plug in here for Evans Book, since they just happen to be my distributor. They have been wonderful to work with, and really a God-send for a self-published author. They have taken all the warehousing and distribution headaches off my hands. They don't do much marketing for me, but they HAVE been helpful with getting me in such places and Barnes and Noble, Media Play, Waldens, DB, etc. (still working on Wal-Mart. Costco was a no-go. oh well.) They also allow me to put my color flyers in their monthly mailings whenever I want, which gets quality promotional materials in the hands of virtually every LDS bookstore out there. It's been a good experience. I highly recommend them. -BJ Rowley - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Diann T Read Subject: [AML] Re: Spiritual Pornography Date: 21 Aug 2001 20:49:54 -0500 --------- Forwarded message ---------- Tony (and AML List), While there were a number of points in your piece on "spiritual pornography" that I agreed with completely, I'm truly hoping that you were taking the role of devil's advocate to a new extreme when you stated that you were sufficiently offended by the cover of a recent issue of the Ensign that you would not renew your subscription. On the off-chance you were actually serious, may I offer the following? So the photo of the "choir" on the cover was obviously staged. Most cover photos are. *So what?* There comes a time when necessity and practicality have to take precedence over "art." Waiting around for an elusive "perfect" candid shot simply isn't conducive with meeting publishing deadlines. But that's beside the point. I think you need to keep a few things in mind before you make the Ensign staff (or the producers of "Testaments," for that matter) "offenders for a word." First off, *nothing* in this world, no matter how skillfully rendered, is going to compare with the glory and perfection of God and His works. In this life we're mortal, we're finite, we're imperfect; it simply "comes with the territory." All anyone can do is his or her best, no matter what that is. We're *not* going to achieve perfection in this life--but we do have the obligation, I believe, to always try to improve our talents, to seek to do better with each attempt. Even the writers of the Book of Mormon recognized their imperfections and apologized for flaws that resulted because of their weaknesses. Do Nephi's or Moroni's human weaknesses "cheapen" the Book of Mormon for you? I have a hard time accepting the idea that something as simple as a staged photo "cheapens" the concept the photo was intended to illustrate. To me, the *intent* of the artist/writer/musician is what "cheapens" or elevates a work, much more than the skill she or he brings to the work. If the intent of a photograph, for example, is to merely titillate or arouse, it's porno, regardless of how technically "perfect" it is in composition, lighting, or the beauty of its subjects. I think you're reading too much--or more likely too little--into things like magazine covers and Church films. I've heard people criticize the temple films the same way, and I'll say to you now the same thing I say to them: These things were not intended to be masterpieces by the aesthetic standards of the world. They're teaching aids, no more, no less. I can't help but feel sorry for people who are so critical of what they perceive as weaknesses that they're blinded to the intended message. Diann Read - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Amelia Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 22 Aug 2001 02:18:12 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) I've attached Konnie Enos's message about writing about "good Mormons", or rather about Mormon women entering relationships with non-Mormon men, below. Just wondering if this shouted out to anyone else. Seems to me that if this is true (don't think it necessarily is--I know both versions of this scenaria, i.e. Mormon women who have introduced boyfriends to church and they have joined and Mormon women who have left the church for men), it says much more about the nature of male/female relationships and power dynamics in general than it does about conversion stories. why is it that men successfully convert women and women do not successfully convert men? In either situation (Mormon man converts non-Mormon woman or Mormon woman fails to convert non-Mormon man and subsequently becomes less-active) the woman gives. We readily see the loss (hate to call it that) when a Mormon woman leaves the church for a man she loves but we frequently fail to understand that a woman converting to Mormonism does potentially sacrifice a lot. the point is that even if the thoughts suggested by Konnie don't accurately represent reality--that there are Mormon women who marry/date successfully non-Mormon men as well as those who don't, the impression is there. that concerns me. why is it more believable to represent men converting women, or women giving up essential beliefs and assuming new ones for men than vice versa? amelia On Thu, 16 Aug 2001 14:16:15 -0600 Gerald G Enos wrote: > Ronn, > > Maybe stories with the member girl converting the non-member guy aren't > used that often because they are so full of problems. The only ladies I > know of that fell in love with a non-member either married and raised > their kids in a part-member home or he converted only to leave the church > latter on and the marriage ended in divorce. In fact of all the > marriages like this I can think of I only know of one that has not split > up. In that one she is less active and he might has well be baptized and > probably would if his mother wasn't so anti-mormon. On the other hand I > know stories that have happy endings that are boy converts girl so I can > believe that kind of story. Well what I am trying to say is that maybe > girl converts boy and marries him are harder stories to make beleiveable > because they don't happen very often. (Less often then the other way > around.) > > Konnie Enos - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Amelia Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] Spiritual Pornography Date: 22 Aug 2001 02:55:16 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Rex Goode wrote: "Before that, the phrase, "the random porn images that fall into my line of sight" is confusing. Pornography, of the type you seem to be describing, never falls into my line of sight. I spend a large part of every day on the web, data processing and web development being both my vocation and avocation. Porn doesn't fall into my line of sight there. I never see it. I hear stories from people who did a search and clicked on a supposedly harmless link only to be exposed to disgusting images. With all the time I spend on the web, it has never happened to me. So, I find it rather confusing for someone to talk about happening on it by accident. Magazines don't fall on my desk from nowhere. I'm not making an accusation here, just trying to understand how random images fall into one's line of sight. Are you talking about accidents, or occasional partaking with your consent? An answer is not owed me, but it seems to me that the answer to this question has a great deal to do with the point of view you've expressed." Rex, I have to jump to Tony's (and anyone else who has claimed to accidently encounter porn) defense here. One night I spent the night at a friend's house, staying in her little brother's bedroom as he was away for the weekend (the reason for my staying with her in the first place; she hated staying alone in her apartment). When I went to bed that night I rolled over to place my book on the floor between the bed and window (so I wouldn't step on it when I got up) and discovered a copy of Penthouse or Playboy or something. I'm not sure what magazine it was because it was open to a double page spread of some rather disturbing and very pornographic images. accidental encounter with porn number 1. Last fall I was in a post-colonial lit class and was researching Chinua Achebe's book _Arrow of God_ (very good book; would recommend it to anyone interested in the nature of religion and human society). I did a web search for Chinua Achebe and _Arrow of God_ and came up with a list of a lot of hits. According to my usual practice, if the suggested site is not a book vender, includes the words of my search in their actual context, and looks potentially useful, I began to click on some of the sites. One, very clearly labeled as an Achebe website led me to a porn site. If you've ever encountered a porn site, whether accidentally or intentionally is irrelevant, you may know that they often do not let you go easily. you click on the "x" to close it and another pops up. and then another and then another. And often the navigation bar is not present (at least it wasn't for the three sites I happened upon while trying to find information about Achebe) so there's no quick-fix by hitting the back button. I had to break my internet connection to get rid of the sites. And they all had small but still highly offensive and pornographic images on them. Accidental encounter with porn number two. Accidental encouter number two has had repeats while researching _Angels in America_ and _Goblin Market_ (both of those are more understandable considering the subject matter of the first and the fact that the illustrations by Dante Gabriel Rossetti for the second were published in the 70s by Playboy but still, I had no idea that the links I was clicking on would lead to porn). Accidental encouters with porn number three and four. And one day, curious, I typed in www.amy.com (my nickname is amy; i did the same with amelia and came up with something innocent) and was taken to a porn site. luckily not many images popped up, mostly words, and I avoided seeing much that was too horrible. accidental encounter with porn number five. They all occurred in the last year. Not a lot but still they happened. simply because it doesn't happen to you doesn't mean it doesn't happen. hope this helps you understand how random images may fall into one's line of sight. perhaps this is all irrelevant. perhaps not. there is something jarring to encountering images or words or representations of ideas or acts or beliefs that one holds sacred which are twisted and contorted until they are dehumanizing and demeaning. my encounters with porn made me nauseous. i do think that Tony has something of a point when he says that he has seen porn infrequently but he is exposed on a regular basis to cheapened representations of things sacred and spiritual in the form of Mormon pop culture (both church commissioned and independent). whether or not everyone would agree with him as to what representations are in fact cheap or tawdry is somewhat irrelevant. while we are all very busy talking about how the world inundates our minds and souls with images and words and music that causes damage, we fail to realize that some of the images and words and music coming from acceptable Mormon sources can also cause damage. As you point out, this is subjective. I can say what poses problems for me but I cannot say what will do so for you or anyone else. However, I am surrounded by members who openly decry all the filth coming from the world (some of which I don't believe is filth) while endorsing (if only tacitly through silence) all things Mormon (some of which i do believe is filth). it's the silence or surprise with which people respond when they find out i don't subscribe to the Ensign ($10/year; contains words of prophet) but do subscribe to Ms. ($60 for two years; contains words of strident feminists). it's the drawing of harsh black and white boundaries around what's acceptable and not simply based upon whether it's Mormon or not. I think what Tony is getting at is simply acknowledging the complexity of things spiritual and sexual. their humanity. that a simple lack of graphic sex does not make something good and pure. and, back to a line i started earlier, what happens when our spirit is jarred repeatedly and told that what is jarring it is actually good or acceptable? am I becoming spiritually numbed into the same kind of casual indifference towards religion and truth that many of my friends portray towards sex because they have been exposed to porn? it's at least worth thinking about. I agree with much that you said, too, but there's a lot to be valued in what Tony had to say. hope this doesn't sound too much like an attack--it's not. friends constantly tell me I sound like I'm on the attack when I'm actually just trying to engage in good discussion. amelia - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: [AML] Joseph Smith Story (was: Sunstone 2001) Date: 22 Aug 2001 09:17:22 -0600 I attended two sessions at Sunstone, one of which I presented, which was = very uninteresting, and one I went to, which I found amazingly provocative.= It was by Gary Stewart, a fine playwright and screenwriter who's also a = sort of relative of mine (his wife and my mom are first cousins.) Anyway = Gary talked about how difficult it was for him to write his Joseph Smith = play, finally concluding that, for him, the task was an impossible one. = And I found myself wondering about this terrific notion; how does one = write about Joseph Smith? And here are some obvious (to me) pitfalls: 1) Kitchen sink 2) Stiff, starchy, pious 3) Non-volitional 4) A Star is Born The first pitfall, it seems to me, is to take the kitchen sink approach. = There's just so much stuff to write about, so much story, it's difficult = to pick and choose and any choice you make risks reductiveness. A play, = or a screenplay, or even a novel does need to be somewhat concise and = compressed. Gary mentioned Hamlet as the greatest character study in the = history of drama. But Hamlet is about a guy who sees a ghost--everything = else comes from that one fact. So if we're going to write about Joseph = Smith, we should find that one thing we can hang a story on: Joseph's = Ghost, so to speak. (Which would seem to locate the play in Palmyra.) = But it's so easy to say 'gosh, look at the bank failure in Kirtland. = Gotta put that in there. And Liberty Jail. Oh, and Zion's camp. Not to = mention that leg operation. And the chipped tooth tarring and feathering; = what a scene that'll make.' Another pitfall, a standard one for Mormons, is to make Joseph so pious he = becomes boring. That one seems inexcusable to me; Joseph was the most = dynamic, charismatic, exciting individual of the nineteenth century. When = I was in Nauvoo recently, I saw a little missionary musical they do in the = Visitor's Center there. The cast all played multiple roles. When it came = time for one of the kids to play Joseph, he immediately stiffened up, his = voice went all formal, his hand motions become very self-conscious. = Understandable, but the wrong choice when playing the Merry Prophet. =20 Third huge pitfall, and one which I'm very much afraid Crawford Gates is = falling into with his big new Joseph opera; you create a non-volitional = Joseph; a Joseph that doesn't make choices, he doesn't drive the action. = If Joseph is wholly reactive, then you've got the very definition of a = weak and uninvolving protagonist. Basic rule I teach my playwriting = students: a character that is done to is not interesting. A character = that does is interesting. If Joseph spends all his time waiting for = angels to tell him what to do next, then you've got a cipher at the center = of your story. =20 Fourth pitfall: A star is born. It's a very Hollywood story; the kid from = nowhere who rises to Become Somebody; then falls. I really think that = subconsciously we often structure the Joseph story in that particularly = familiar way. He was a poor kid from the upstate New York sticks, who is = picked out by a celestial talent scout and makes it in the big time . . . = until a vicious and incomprehensible mob does him in. (That's close to = what Andrew Lloyd Webber has done with a certain other religiously = inclined Joseph, except Webber gives him a happy ending.) =20 So these are major pitfalls, and that's before we get to the really tough = issues, the audience problem. Fact is, your target audience is going to = be LDS, and they don't want a warts-and-all Joseph. In fact, a sizeable = percentage of the LDS population doesn't know Joseph was involved with = polygamy, and doesn't want to hear it. (Interesting how much of mainstream= Mormonism has retreated to what was fifty years ago the standard RLDS = view.) My own brother told me a couple of weeks ago that, while Joseph = may have married polygamously, he certainly never cohabitated with any of = the other wives--he was busy marrying old widows so they could have some = financial security in their dotage. So you softpedal Nauvoo polygamy (for = example), and fundamentally falsify the story, or you tell it plainly and = clearly, and alienate most of your audience. =20 And that's not the only issue where that happens. How about that bank = failure? What about D&C 124, where the Lord seems to think a thorough = sleazeball like John C. Bennett is pretty much okay? What about all those = peepstone stories? Okay, you can softpedal some of that stuff, but all of = it? The more I think about it, the more I think Gary's right. We could write = about how someone else viewed Joseph--I've always wanted to tell Joseph's = story from Hyrum's perspective. (James Arrington has a wonderful play = that takes a kind of Rashomon approach to Joseph.) We could take the = semi-documentary approach the Church is leaning towards in recent films, = where you spend the whole film quoting old journals. (I like that = approach a lot, and think it's quite effective.) We could take what Tim = Slover has suggested: an ecstatic approach, quite stylized, in which we = celebrate Joseph's life as the Medieval mystery plays did the life of = Christ, with an emphasis on doctrine. (I'd like to try that one too.) = =20 But I wonder if it's even possible to really communicate who Joseph Smith = was dramatically. I can't help but think that any attempt will prove to = me so reductive it bear only the most tangential relationship to its = subject. And yet we keep trying, don't we? It's an itch we have to = scratch. But we can never seem to scratch it satisfactorily. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "ROY SCHMIDT" Subject: Re: [AML] LDS Booksellers Convention Date: 22 Aug 2001 10:27:27 -0600 Hey! I'm a Mormon, and I've read Homer. I even own some of the stuff he and Jethro did together. Plus, I am the proud possessor of both the CD and the DVD of "Oh Brother, Where Art Thou." Don't tell me I ain't got no couth. Roy Schmidt Stansfield/Nunes romance books that do pretty well, but when it comes to good, solid literature, it just doesn't happen in the LDS community. "How many Mormons do you think have read Homer? None!" - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "BJ Rowley" Subject: Re: [AML] Irreantum fiction contest winners Date: 22 Aug 2001 10:53:54 -0600 Terri Reid wrote: >This is such a sore spot with me (pats on the head.) I find that - except >for you folks - I don't share my writing successes with members of the >church. (Well, actually with members of my ward.) > "And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet [writer] is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house." Matt. 13:57 -BJ Rowley - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Needle" Subject: [AML] George W. GIVENS, _Out Of Palmyra_ (Review) Date: 22 Aug 2001 06:09:20 -0700 Review ====== George W. Givens, "Out Of Palmyra -- A Convert Looks at the Prophetic Calling of Joseph Smith" 2000, Lynchburg, Virginia, Palmyra Street Publishers Paperback, 135 pages, $9.95 Reviewed by Jeffrey Needle I will begin by expressing some surprise at the content of this slim volume, given the main title. I had assumed this was to be a brief history of Joseph Smith after leaving Palmyra. Instead, as the subtitle indicates, it is a peculiar attempt at Mormon apologetic by a sincere convert to the Church. His methodology is made clear in his introduction: If he [Joseph Smith] were not a prophet, well-established patterns of known fraudulent behavior would have been evident in the restoration of the church organized by Joseph and his followers. The evidence is overwhelming that almost every act performed by Joseph in the Restoration runs counter to what should be anticipated in the acts of an impostor. So if fraud had been his intention, what would he have done differently? (p. viii - ix) My immediate reaction to these statements: 1. I was not aware that there were "well-established patterns of known fraudulent behavior". Certainly we've all read accounts of religious charlatans and noticed certain similarities, but they are few and far between. If there are studies as to their behavior patters, I haven't read any. I was interested in how Givens had determined these "well-established patterns." 2. Giving him the benefit of the doubt, that there indeed exists a corpus of such knowledge, it seemed to me that one would have to adopt a highly subjective view of religious behavior in order to determine which behaviors, although common to the charlatans, were incidental to their falsehood and not definitive. Givens then lists twelve patterns that he finds missing in the ministry of Joseph Smith. His chapter titles oddly omit the pronoun "He" at the start. I report them here exactly as he gives them in his Table of Contents: I. Would have established the church by revelation only II. Would have had fewer witnesses III. Would have indulged his associates IV. Would have been accused by apostates of fraud -- not of having "fallen" V. Would have tried to profit financially VI. Would have devised doctrines more appealing to the masses VII. Would have discouraged learning VIII. Would have avoided exhibiting original Book of Mormon inscriptions IX. Would have created less refutable theology X. Would have received revelations in secret XI. Would have acted as a prophet XII. Would have shown greater concern for self-preservation It should be clear at this point that his criteria are indeed highly subjective. And some seem to beg comment. For example, his final point concerning "self-preservation," a critic might ask, "If he was so unconcerned with his own well-being, why was he assassinated while trying to escape the mob? Why didn't he just stand there and accept his death?" Critics often cite Joan of Arc, Wycliffe, and others, as counter-examples. To be sure, I'm not calling into question either Joseph's calling or his courage. But how does any work of apologetic benefit by setting up a straw man that just begs contradiction? A more serious problem occurs throughout the book as Givens attempts to offer examples of those who have demonstrated such false patters, but then he backs away from naming them as frauds, which is, after all, the theme of his book. A few examples, if I may. In support of his first point, establishing the church by revelation only, he cites Mohammed and Mother Ann Lee of the Shakers as examples of those who founded their religions on the basis of revelation only. But: All of this is not to suggest that other major faiths, founded on the basis of revelation only or predominantly, were fraudulent, but that revelation alone was an entirely sufficient basis for founding some of the world's most successful religions. (p. 8) Later, in enlarging on his fifth point, of profiting financially, he makes the following observation about Mary Baker Eddy, the founder of Christian Science: Mary Baker Eddy, on the other hand, founder of the First Church of Christ Scientist [sic], used the royalties from her book, Science and Health, published in 1875, to become a wealthy woman. This is not a criticism of Mrs. Eddy, but merely an observation of a legitimate practice of religious leaders. (p. 57) Perhaps you can see my problem. Givens has constructed a list of "well-established patters of known fraudulent behavior." He offers real-life examples of those who exhibit such behavior, and then backs away, making clear he does not consider the person a fraud. With all due respect to the efforts of this sincere man, one must question the legitimacy of choosing the tests of legitimacy based on the a priori assumption of Joseph's prophethood. It appears this is what he has done. Again, I don't quarrel with his convictions, only with his methods. James Baldwin, the late writer and poet, wrote in his autobiographical "The Fire Next Time" of his growing up the son of a Baptist minister, the only black student in a predominantly white, Jewish elementary school. His father would send him to school with hell-fire and brimstone tracts to give to the little Jewish children, who regularly glanced at them and tossed them in the trash, not a bit affected by the message. Later in life he reflected on this phenomenon, and realized that the only ones who were convinced by any of those tracts were those who already believed in what they said. I don't expect his arguments will convince anyone who doesn't already believe that Joseph was a true prophet. Of course, it might have been somewhat easier to buy his arguments if he didn't keep backing away from them, as documented above. I admire his zeal, and hope he continues to search and grow in the faith. But this book, it seems to me, does little to advance the cause of Mormonism and the prophetic calling of Joseph Smith. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AEParshall@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] Sunstone 2001 Date: 22 Aug 2001 12:53:06 EDT I attended a very few sessions of Sunstone -- it's not the kind of conference where I can find something of interest every hour -- and also presented a paper called "The Many Voices of Brigham Young" based on the one and a half million words of Brigham Young correspondence I've transcribed over the past few months. Although generally historical, it leaned toward the literary as I presented samples of BY's letters to illustrated his repertoire of tones: jovial, businesslike, stern, pastoral, patronizing, ribald. The Sunstone crowd, whatever else you might say, is a good audience for a paper like that -- they laughed at all the punchlines, even the subtle ones, and asked some perceptive questions during Q&A. State archivist Jeff Johnson gave a great paper on Brigham Young's home and family life, drawing largely from Susa Young Gates material that didn't make it into her final manuscript. Utah archives, by the way, are full of such notes and drafts relating to literary works that would be of interest to AML members interested in criticism and literary history. Quite by accident I ended up in a session discussing whether Sunstone's open forum policy was equivalent to an open mike, where anyone at all must be allowed to say anything at all. The case study was a paper that had been first accepted then withdrawn from the program of Sunstone West held in San Francisco earlier this year. While the details of that case study aren't especially relevant to AML, the question could certainly interest editors and librarians and book buyers and anybody else who is constantly faced with choosing which voices to promote. Another great session was called "Why I No Longer Trust FARMS Review of Books" -- definitely a literary subject, especially with regard to Mormon criticism, polemics, and the review process, but the complex details of which are off-topic here. The last session I attended was a panel on "Violence on the Mormon Frontier." I can't make any literary connection there, unless you want to count the methods of evaluating documentary evidence as literary. Lively session, that one. Ardis Parshall AEParshall@aol.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "???n ??e" Subject: Re: [AML] Spiritual Pornography Date: 22 Aug 2001 10:02:34 -0700 Tony, Thanks for your response and for the kind things you said about me. You said, "...your contributions, that swing both ways between insight and humor," to which I reply that it would be convenient for my wife if I would learn to swing both ways in other things, but she has no complaints. I enjoyed your story about your barber shop experience. It has been decades since I've been in a barber shop. My wife cut my hair up until I decide on a very close crop that I can do myself with clippers. I think the last time I was in a barber shop, when I was a teenager, there was a rack of porn magazines for customers. Fortunately, there was nothing in them to fascinate me. I don't think that chocolate can be an addiction, because I can think of no compelling reasons to not partake. I sympathize with your frustration about what some people call pornography. To me, pornography is no trivial problem. I own an extremely busy website devoted to Mormon pornography addicts, their parents, and spouses. We recently topped out on our space and bandwidth. The problem is so enormous among members of the Church and growing daily. I'm going to have to buy more space. I also operate Clean-LDS, an internet mailing list for Mormon pornography addicts. The membership is at an all-time high there too. In BYU's recent foray into the topic, my resources and I were mentioned in one Daily Universe covery story. So, you can see that the topic of pornography is something I feel strongly about, and I'm not just someone who is all opinion and no action. I've never had much interest in pornography, but then my childhood was filled with three-dimensional images and activities that make a flat picture seem, well, rather flat. With my own openness about my own struggles came a steady trickle of men contacting me by private email for help with their pornography addictions. Though I did not share their problem, I had much I could tell them about overcoming difficult problems. I created Clean-LDS as an effort to get these men together to help each other. I later inherited another website and now find myself right in the middle of a problem I never had myself. On any given day, I read dozens of messages from Mormon pornography addicts, spouses, and parents of addicts. The stories of the wives are especially difficult. As you can imagine, a wife whose husband looks at pornography wonders why she is not sufficient, what is wrong with her to not be enough to keep his attention. As you can tell, I can jump on any idea that appears to make pornography seem trivial. A film with alcohol in it is not pornography, nor is a film with nudity and sexual situations automatically pornographic because of these two facts. Like I said, I don't think we can really pin down what pornography is or isn't. All we can really do is measure ourselves and our reactions to the things we see and hear. My political views on what should be done about it are somewhat liberal, I think. For example, I think it is somewhat futile to try to zone a porn shop out of an area. People who want it will get it no matter where you put it, and no matter where you put it, someone is going to see it who wouldn't have seen it somewhere else. It seems to make the activists feel good, but in my mind, it is like smearing mud around on a map. No matter where you put it, it is still dirty. In many ways, I think it would be an easier problem to combat if it weren't driven underground. If I want to help members of the Church who have problems with the stuff, I'd want the shop right where I could see who goes in. Instead, we try to get them stuck away in some niche where people can easily come and go without being seen. Secrecy only empowers the addiction. I pray for a more open day when we can ask each other for help with our weaknesses instead of delighting in the competition to appear to have fewer weaknesses than our neighbor. Rex Goode _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "???n ??e" Subject: Re: [AML] Spiritual Pornography Date: 22 Aug 2001 10:11:59 -0700 Amelia, Thanks for your response. I did not feel attacked. I know what "attacked" feels like, and that was not it. No need to call what you said a "defense" of Tony, because I was not accusing. I can see where accidents can happen with seeing porn. One general authority, I can't remember who, told about his accidental encounter with porn that could intrude on his thoughts decades later. I don't know why I am spared from running across sites like the ones you've seen. I have a pretty good sense for which links in a search result to avoid. My main objection to Tony's inclusion of spiritually-jarring things as pornography has to do with my own involvement in helping people who are addicted to pornography. I don't presume that the feeling of being spiritually jarred is trivial, but I do feel it trivializes the pornography problem to call the things that cause those moments, "pornography." Rex Goode www.LDSR.org www.SpringsOfWater.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Spiritual Pornography Date: 22 Aug 2001 11:00:19 -0600 Diann T Read wrote: > These things were not intended to be masterpieces by the > aesthetic standards of the world. They're teaching aids, no more, no > less. I can't help but feel sorry for people who are so critical of what > they perceive as weaknesses that they're blinded to the intended message. > The temple film, no, it is not intended to be great art. But the Testaments is a different thing altogether. First, it's made for the general public, and it's directed by a guy who has won an Oscar. It looks like a film, it acts like a film, it uses film techniques, they had a special effects budget, they paid the actors to be in it (which they don't for the temple films), it's directed by a noted film director. We cannot allow mediocrity in our art by making more out of the creator's intention that what he/she actually produced. Both must be of the highest calibre: the desire and the actual outcome. If one area fails, the entire piece fails. I had the greatest of intentions when I co-produced _Prophet!_ in 1999. We had some excellent people involved. I know many audience member who were moved to tears and had their testimonies of Joseph Smith increased. Nevertheless, the show was an artistic disaster. I'm embarassed to have been involved in the producing of it. Should I have expected Eric to have given me a better review than he did, just because my intentions were pure? Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tami Miller" Subject: Re: [AML] Irreantum fiction contest winners Date: 22 Aug 2001 19:21:29 +0000 Terri Reid Wrote; <<>> LOL! I like that. -Tami Milelr _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: RE: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 22 Aug 2001 16:14:55 -0500 At 07:21 PM 8/21/01, you wrote: >I didn't see the situation there very plausible, either. Maybe more >plausible >than some of those early Weyland pieces, but at the end the guy has a >dream and >he realizes that he really wants to get baptized and marry this girl and >raise >lots of screaming kids and be really poor, instead of keeping his current >lifestyle and his share in the lucrative family wine business. > >Must've been some dream. > >--Katie Parker Had he been sampling the family wares? ;-) --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: [AML] Fw: MN News Briefs: Church Calls for Actors for 'Savior of the World' Date: 23 Aug 2001 14:38:11 -0400 Church Calls for Actors for 'Savior of the World' SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH -- The LDS Church is calling for actors and vocalists who are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to audition for the Fall production of its musical, "Savior of the World." Auditions will be held by appointment on September 4-8 from 5-10pm in the LDS Conference Center Theater. Rehersals will be held from September through November for performances in November and December. Interested members should call (801) 240-0140. Actors, vocalists sought for 'Savior of the World' Deseret News 21Aug01 A2 http://www.deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,295019203,00.html >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Email Essays Date: 22 Aug 2001 13:50:52 -0600 At 04:41 PM 8/9/01 -0600, you wrote: >We *could* discuss what I consider to be a new literary genre if we >wanted. Since many of us publish in it, it might be interesting to see >if it qualifies as a genre and what rules might apply. I'm talking >about the email essay of course. I've read many beautifully composed, thought-provoking (or just plain provoking, in the case of Thom Duncan ) messages on this list, and I've saved many of them. I can see it as a literary genre. It would be interesting to analyze why such essays feel different from others. Perhaps it's because we don't tend to structure them in the same way as print essays. They seem more linear or chronological than arranged in terms of opening, thesis, supporting details, restatement of thesis, and conclusion with a clincher, or whatever formal structure you prefer. Barbara R. Hume barbara@techvoice.com (801) 765-4900 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Irreantum fiction contest winners Date: 23 Aug 2001 00:47:02 -0600 Barbara Hume wrote: > I was recently back home on vacation, and I couldn't believe > that my siblings could spend three solid hours talking about their dogs. > Dogs! And they didn't understand why I didn't want their hairy, slobbery > pets leaping up on me. No one would made the mistake twice of letting their slobbery pets leap up on me either. I would consider dogs the ultimate evil communist plot, if cats didn't exist. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Valerie Holladay Subject: [AML] Used LDS Books for Sale? Date: 22 Aug 2001 15:59:21 -0700 (PDT) I was browsing through the books at the local Deseret Industries recently and came across several "classics" that I have in my own collection and value - like Bela Petsco's *Nothing Very Important,* Eloise Bell's *Only When I Laugh,* *Autobiography of a Mormon Mother by Annie Clark Tanner,* (I hope I'm getting all the names right) and others I can't remember at the moment. The thought occurred to me that at $1-4, plus postage, these books might find a welcome home with some of our list members out of the area (and even some in the area). Some of the books have been discussed on the list, some are out of print or may just be hard to get, especially for those outside of Utah. Anyway, is there any interest in someone compiling an LDS book wishlist or a sort of LDS Book ebay (or even just using theirs)? Just hate to see these wonderful books go unappreciated, knowing that some people who would appreciate them don't have easy access to them. Valerie Holladay __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Spiritual Pornography Date: 23 Aug 2001 00:55:37 -0600 Diann T Read wrote: > I think you need to keep a few things in > mind before you make the Ensign staff (or the producers of "Testaments," > for that matter) "offenders for a word." But the producers of _Testaments_ were offenders for an entire movie. > I've heard people criticize the > temple films the same way, and I'll say to you now the same thing I say > to them: These things were not intended to be masterpieces by the > aesthetic standards of the world. They're teaching aids, no more, no > less. The purpose of the temple films is so far afield from being art or entertainment, that they are one place where I don't go in with a critical attitude toward their aesthetic quality. But when you step out into the regular world and start producing stuff that is intended at least partly as entertainment, like, to pull an example out at random, TESTAMENTS!, it's a whole other story. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kristy" Subject: [AML] Re: Reader's Digest Articles Date: 22 Aug 2001 14:12:00 -0700 > Two great articles in the September Reader's Digest--one on "The Healing > Power of Faith", and the other on the Mormon, Pierre Anthian, who has > established a homeless men's choir. I have come across other stories of > Mormons in the Reader's Digest, and have wondered if there was a Mormon > on the editorial board. Does anyone here know? > I don't know about that, but I do know that the Church has been a large source of revenue for Reader's Digest. The Church has paid handsomely for several tear out pamphlets on the family that have gone out in the Digest over the years. [Kristy Aros] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "mjames_laurel" Subject: Re: [AML] Irreantum fiction contest winners Date: 22 Aug 2001 22:42:54 -0600 I still have people who come up to me and ask > if I'm still doing "that little playwriting thing." Yeah, and I call it > a...career...thank you very much. Survey: how many of the women writers on > this list get the proverbial indulgent pat on the head when it comes to > matters career? My experience has been very much the opposite. I'm not comfortable talking about my writing "career" much, but my husband and children generally spread the word. I have always been very shy about my writing - the "I'm a Fraud" syndrome that seems to be common among writers. But when people discover I have actual books published, they are respectful and generally seem a little bit in awe (which makes me hugely uncomfortable - the whole Fraud thing again.) And I know that the men will cry foul because they get it > too but somehow I have to say that we women seem to get it more. I'm sure > you'll correct me if I'm wrong... In some ways, it can be tougher for a man, who is expected to be out earning a living, not wasting away the hours hunched over his computer indulging in his "hobby." Until their writing starts bringing money in, the few men I know who are or are struggling to be published deal with a whole lot more guilt over the time they "waste" writing than I do. Women who write, published or not, are "developing a talent." Unless they are making good money at it, men who write are often considered to be wasting time that should be devoted to family, fixing leaky faucets, home teaching or earning a living. I have an internet critique partner (not LDS) whose writing is phenomenal, it literally takes my breath away. He has several agents anxious to sign him, and three top NY editors who, on the strength of a single chapter from his first book, have been waiting for more than a year to bid on the finished manuscript. But this fellow's wife gives him so much grief over all the time he's wasted working on it so far the only way he's able to continue with it anymore is by waiting till she's asleep and sneaking out of bed well after midnight to write for a couple of hours. Laurel Brady - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Irreantum fiction contest winners Date: 23 Aug 2001 10:56:03 -0600 At 12:47 AM 8/22/01 -0700, you wrote: >1. Oh, well, I could write too - if I wanted too. >2. I don't think women should be trying to earn a living - if they do, their >children will grow up to be delinquents. >3. This doesn't seem that good to me. If I had written it... These comments remind me of that toplofty snob Lady Catherine de Burgh in Pride and Prejudice, who informs Elizabeth that she would have been an extraordinary performer on the piano "if I had ever learnt." Clearly, this type of person still exists! A friend told me that he would have thought the ms he read was wonderful if someone else had written it, but since it was only me. . . . Barbara R. Hume barbara@techvoice.com (801) 765-4900 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Monasticism Date: 22 Aug 2001 15:47:13 -0400 Thanks for the light note, Ronn. And responding to all the post in general-- I know a lot of homeschoolers, being one myself, and they all homeschool for various reasons. I believe there are homeschoolers who homeschool to 'keep their kids from the evils of the world'. I think that is a Christian phenomenon as opposed to a Mormon one. I'm told in the south it is quite a common reason. One of my friends objects to homeschooling because he feels parents are just trying to control everything about their kids. I suppose he thinks it's better for the public school personnel to exercise that control. (I'd really like to meet the homeschooler who feels like they have complete control.) I can tell you why we homeschooled, at least in the beginning. David traveled a lot. We could go with him. Oooo, Aaaah. I think you could use homeschooling as an example of a lot of things in literature. I'm not sure it's a good idea. Seems to me like you'd end up stepping on toes left and right. You could write of a Mormon family who homeschools as a way of isolation. Then all the homeschoolers who don't would growl, and all the people who dislike homeschooling for any reason would wave and cheer, and all the homeschoolers would growl back and so forth. Represent homeschooling in one light and a lot of homeschoolers who disagree will 'be offended', and all the people who don't homeschool will either have strong opinions on one side or the other, or more likely not care at all about anything remotely about homeschooling. Homeschooling seems to be a touchy subject these days. And please, could someone introduce me with to the homeschooling mom who somehow set the standard for how much patience we inherently have? For some reason almost everyone I meet seems to think I must be the patience paragon after spending most of everyday with seven kids and their school work. Go figure. Tracie Laulusa (who homeschools in spite of, not because of, her patience or lack thereof.) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "helena.chester" Subject: [AML] Reader's Digest Articles Date: 23 Aug 2001 05:57:29 +1000 Two great articles in the September Reader's Digest--one on "The Healing Power of Faith", and the other on the Mormon, Pierre Anthian, who has established a homeless men's choir. I have come across other stories of Mormons in the Reader's Digest, and have wondered if there was a Mormon on the editorial board. Does anyone here know? Helena - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RichardDutcher@aol.com Subject: [AML] Re: Ogden Standard Examiner Misquote Date: 23 Aug 2001 17:24:56 EDT Below is a copy of a letter sent by Richard Dutcher to the Ogden Standard Examiner regarding an article published several days ago. Dear Standard-Examiner, Your reporter, Melisa Ann Wilson, seriously misrepresented my opinions and comments regarding "Mormon filmmaking" at the recent Sunstone Symposium. I am angered by what appears to be purposeful misrepresentation of my statements. To begin with, your headline states: "LDS filmmaker: Church movies lacking." I did not say that. The subhead immediately beneath the headline claims: "Director of 'God's Army' says films shouldn't be afraid to offend audience." Where did that come from? I have just finished listening to an audiotape of the session and at no point did I say such a thing. One of the other panelists, Stephen Williams, referred to this, and is even quoted in the final paragraph of your article. Why his words were put into my mouth is a mystery. It is either sloppy journalism or willful misrepresentation. The most offensive misquote, however, is where Ms. Wilson quotes me, in reference to movies made by other LDS producers, as saying, "I don't recommend you support these films." The audiotape of the session proves that I said quite the opposite. The correct quote is: "I'd recommend that you support these films." It is baffling to me why your reporter would so blatantly misquote me. She is either hard of hearing, in which case she should sit closer to the front, or else she came to the symposium looking for controversy and, finding none, decided to create one on my behalf. Whatever the cause, I respectfully suggest that the next time you send her to cover a story, you provide her with a tape recorder before she walks out the door. Sincerely, Richard Dutcher LDS Filmmaker "God's Army," "Brigham City" - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: RE: [AML] Email Essays Date: 23 Aug 2001 14:25:46 -0600 ---Original Message From: Barbara Hume > >We *could* discuss what I consider to be a new literary genre if we > >wanted. Since many of us publish in it, it might be > interesting to see > >if it qualifies as a genre and what rules might apply. I'm talking > >about the email essay of course. > > I've read many beautifully composed, thought-provoking (or just plain > provoking, in the case of Thom Duncan ) messages on this > list, and I've > saved many of them. I can see it as a literary genre. It would be > interesting to analyze why such essays feel different from > others. Perhaps > it's because we don't tend to structure them in the same way > as print > essays. They seem more linear or chronological than arranged in terms > of opening, thesis, supporting details, restatement of thesis, and > conclusion with a clincher, or whatever formal structure you prefer. That's kind of what I was thinking. For me, they tend to be more linear with a point-transition-point format more than a unifying thesis or theme. Sometimes, I'll have a final point in mind as a destination that *could* serve as a thesis, but it isn't nearly as strong as in a typical essay with a well-defined topic. It's harder to look at an e-essay and say "the point was X" for example. I think they might be a natural evolution of the essay format--a response to the societal trend to less formality. Heh. We could call it a slacker-essay :) Jacob - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: RE: [AML] Email Essays Date: 23 Aug 2001 14:25:46 -0600 ---Original Message From: Barbara Hume > >We *could* discuss what I consider to be a new literary genre if we > >wanted. Since many of us publish in it, it might be > interesting to see > >if it qualifies as a genre and what rules might apply. I'm talking > >about the email essay of course. > > I've read many beautifully composed, thought-provoking (or just plain > provoking, in the case of Thom Duncan ) messages on this > list, and I've > saved many of them. I can see it as a literary genre. It would be > interesting to analyze why such essays feel different from > others. Perhaps > it's because we don't tend to structure them in the same way > as print > essays. They seem more linear or chronological than arranged in terms > of opening, thesis, supporting details, restatement of thesis, and > conclusion with a clincher, or whatever formal structure you prefer. That's kind of what I was thinking. For me, they tend to be more linear with a point-transition-point format more than a unifying thesis or theme. Sometimes, I'll have a final point in mind as a destination that *could* serve as a thesis, but it isn't nearly as strong as in a typical essay with a well-defined topic. It's harder to look at an e-essay and say "the point was X" for example. I think they might be a natural evolution of the essay format--a response to the societal trend to less formality. Heh. We could call it a slacker-essay :) Jacob - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morgan Adair" Subject: Re: [AML] Sunstone 2001 Date: 23 Aug 2001 14:31:59 -0600 >>> AEParshall@aol.com 08/22/01 10:53AM >>> >I attended a very few sessions of Sunstone -- it's not the kind of = conference=20 >where I can find something of interest every hour -- and also presented = a=20 >paper called "The Many Voices of Brigham Young" based on the one and a = half=20 >million words of Brigham Young correspondence I've transcribed over the = past=20 >few months. Although generally historical, it leaned toward the literary = as=20 >I presented samples of BY's letters to illustrated his repertoire of = tones:=20 >jovial, businesslike, stern, pastoral, patronizing, ribald. The = Sunstone=20 >crowd, whatever else you might say, is a good audience for a paper like = that=20 >-- they laughed at all the punchlines, even the subtle ones, and asked = some=20 >perceptive questions during Q&A. Your session sounded interesting, but there was something else in that = time slot that I absolutely had to go to (Sunstone is one of those = conferences where there are 2 or 3 good sessions to choose from at any = given time). I remember reading a letter from Brigham Young to his missionary son, = Joseph, that was published in _Letters of Brigham Young to His Sons_, = edited by Dean Jessee. The letter sounded exactly like a patriarchal = blessing--I wrote a paper about patriarchal blessings as a Mormon literary = genre, which I need to dust off and get published one of these days. A session that I really enjoyed with a clear MoLit connection was an = interview with Levi Peterson. I think the session was intended to focus on = his short story collection, _The Canyons of Grace_, but after talking = about how it came to be published, the interview ranged over all of Levi's = life. One question dealt with Levi's activity in the Church. He said that = most people think of activity as attending meetings, while Levi thinks of = it as being actively involved in making the Church better, an organization = more welcoming to people who might not fit in otherwise, kinder to women, = homosexuals. He didn't use the word "activist," but it seems to fit. I participated in an "author meets critics" session on _Lucy's Book: A = Critical Edition of Lucy Mack Smith's Family Memoir_, edited by Lavina = Fielding Anderson. I read a draft of a review that will appear in an = upcoming issue of Sunstone. >The last session I attended was a panel on "Violence on the Mormon = Frontier."=20 > I can't make any literary connection there, unless you want to count = the=20 >methods of evaluating documentary evidence as literary. Lively session, = that=20 >one. It was also a reminder of how much American culture has changed in 100-150 = years. For a literary connection, try juxtaposing some of the historical = vignettes told in that session with a "Work and the Glory" view of the = 19th century frontier. MBA - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MGA Subject: [AML] re: Joseph Smith Story Date: 23 Aug 2001 14:33:32 -0600 I disagree that an audience for the Joseph Smith story must be LDS. Was Fawn Brodie's audience for NO MAN KNOWS MY HISTORY LDS? True, this was an historical biography and not fiction. Was Vardis Fisher's audience for CHILDREN OF GOD LDS? No, and that work of fiction won critical praise and a major literary award for fiction in the late 1930's-at a time when he would have been writing in the company of Steinbeck, Hemmingway-- and even the popular Margaret Mitchell. The problem is not in the subject matter(Joseph Smith's life). The problem lies with Latter-day Saints. To them, Joseph has become a mere symbol, an icon for their own private interpretation of the Gospel. I now that there will be great works of fiction inspired by the real life of Joseph Smith. Unfortunately, I agree wholeheartedly with Harold Bloom when he says (in his book THE AMERICAN RELIGION) that these great works will be written by NON-MORMONS. When these works are created, MOST Saints--being uncomfortable with not only our church's history, but also with its doctrinal deviation from mainline Protestantism theology--will label the work "anti-Mormon." (This is beyond dispute. Look at how many Church members had reservations about a well-made, pro-LDS, "totally-Mormon" film like BRIGHAM CITY--not to mention GOD'S ARMY.) But when this new works about Joseph are created, this will be the great irony: though members of the Church will object to these depictions of Joseph, many non-members will convert to the Church because of these depictions. I've come to the conclusion that despite all our talk about Joseph Smith, he still remains the great stumbling block for MEMBERS of the Church. This problem (it IS a problem!) will only intensify as the Church puts greater emphasis on popular Protestant images of Christ. Most of the recent converts to the Church that I have met give little or no thought to Joseph. They have been baptized in almost complete ignorance of the facts concerning this man. This is too bad. As a convert, it was Joseph Smith and his distinctive doctrines that drew me to the Church. He was a fascinating human being, personifying in numerous diverse ways what it means for an individual to "work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. ROB LAUER - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] George W. GIVENS, _Out Of Palmyra_ (Review) Date: 23 Aug 2001 15:09:24 -0600 At 06:09 AM 8/22/01 -0700, you wrote: >. I was not aware that there were "well-established patterns > of known fraudulent behavior". Certainly we've all read > accounts of religious charlatans and noticed certain > similarities, but they are few and far between. I read somewhere that one typical behavior of a fraudulent religious leader is to set up a mechanism whereby he gets to sleep with selected young females from among his flock. H'mmmmmm-- Barbara R. Hume barbara@techvoice.com (801) 765-4900 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: RE: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 23 Aug 2001 15:05:20 -0600 ---Original Message From: Eric R. Samuelsen > The more I think about it, the more I think Gary's right. We > could write about how someone else viewed Joseph--I've always > wanted to tell Joseph's story from Hyrum's perspective. > (James Arrington has a wonderful play that takes a kind of > Rashomon approach to Joseph.) We could take the > semi-documentary approach the Church is leaning towards in > recent films, where you spend the whole film quoting old > journals. (I like that approach a lot, and think it's quite > effective.) We could take what Tim Slover has suggested: an > ecstatic approach, quite stylized, in which we celebrate > Joseph's life as the Medieval mystery plays did the life of > Christ, with an emphasis on doctrine. (I'd like to try that > one too.) > > But I wonder if it's even possible to really communicate who > Joseph Smith was dramatically. I can't help but think that > any attempt will prove to me so reductive it bear only the > most tangential relationship to its subject. And yet we keep > trying, don't we? It's an itch we have to scratch. But we > can never seem to scratch it satisfactorily. I wonder if we wouldn't have the same problem writing about Christ if we had as much source material as we do for Joseph Smith. Now, I hesitate to even say that because it feeds into the hands of people who claim we worship Joseph on the same level as Jesus--which we just don't. But I don't think that comparison is necessarily unwarranted. What we know about Christ is intriguing enough, even realizing that we know really very little. All the same problems exist, even the warts-showing one. Not that Jesus had warts, but there's quite a bit there that people like to gloss over in their own way (like Joseph Smith's polygamy). Since our main source for stories of Jesus are a) faithful and b) doctrine centered, we tend to miss those things that are only hinted at which could make him our Merry Savior and as complex a character as Joseph is. I guess what I'm saying is that we'd have a tough time writing stories of Jesus if we had the same depth of source material. Lacking that depth, we can fill in the blanks as we see fit. We can have "Stone Tables", "Testaments", "The Last Temptation", even "Life of Bryan" and not worry about contradicting contemporary accounts (or leaving things out due to some imagined bias). I wonder if we couldn't do with Joseph what seems to be an interesting trend with Jesus--have him show up in a modern context. What would a "Cowboy Joseph" look like? Again, you have to make sure that we aren't substituting Joseph for Jesus in a faith/worship way, but doing so in a literary way might be practicable. The benefits of that is that all the problems you mentioned turn into back story, and are thus easier to cut or emphasize as needed by the story. Plus, it's an intriguing thought: What *would* Joseph do if he were thrust into our modern world? I expect there'd be some interesting fireworks... Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: RE: [AML] Reader's Digest Articles Date: 23 Aug 2001 15:07:08 -0700 I think it's like the Boy Scouts inasmuch as the Reader's Digest sensibilit= ies happen to dovetail very closely with the Mormon mindset. Just as = Mormons make up a quarter of the total BSA membership, I bet we also make = up a big percentage of RD subscribers, and our weight as a distinct = cultural force goes even further than our numbers. It's the same all-Americ= an pasturized cheese approach. While I was at the Ensign, the two = magazines held in most respect by the staff and the ones they wanted to = emulate most were Reader's Digest and Nat'l Geographic.=20 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: RE: [AML] Reader's Digest Articles Date: 23 Aug 2001 15:07:08 -0700 I think it's like the Boy Scouts inasmuch as the Reader's Digest sensibilit= ies happen to dovetail very closely with the Mormon mindset. Just as = Mormons make up a quarter of the total BSA membership, I bet we also make = up a big percentage of RD subscribers, and our weight as a distinct = cultural force goes even further than our numbers. It's the same all-Americ= an pasturized cheese approach. While I was at the Ensign, the two = magazines held in most respect by the staff and the ones they wanted to = emulate most were Reader's Digest and Nat'l Geographic.=20 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: James Picht Subject: Re: [AML] Spiritual Pornography Date: 23 Aug 2001 16:27:53 -0500 Amelia Parkin wrote: > I have to jump to Tony's (and anyone else who has claimed to accidently > encounter porn) defense here... I did a web search for Chinua Achebe and > _Arrow of God_ and came up with a list of a lot of hits... One, very clearly > labeled as an Achebe website led me to a porn site. I was giving exams in my office for an applied computer course. My young victim sat in my chair at my computer, and I sat to the side watching benignly and giving instructions. For the web-search part of the exam I asked a young lady to find me a picture of the actress who played Zan on the series _Farscape_ (she's so lovely in blue makeup, her cheekbones so perfect, that I was suddenly desirous to see her real face). The student found a _Farscape_ website, clicked here and there, and seemed well on her way to finding the picture I wanted. Then the wrong picture appeared. I don't know if it was Zan. I only know she wasn't wearing blue makeup or anything else, and she was much more top-heavy than most women. After an instant of shock, I instructed to student to close that window. She'd already moved to do so, but two more sexually explicit pictures popped onto the screen. "Go back," I cried with some urgency. The student was flustered, but she began clicking across that screen with urgency like my own. It was like trying to behead the hydra. She'd click a picture closed and two more would appear. "Stop! Stop!" Nude women were erupting from every side of the screen. There was no space between my student and the wall, I couldn't get around her to take away the mouse, I was blocking her egress, and pictures of naked women performing remarkable feats of contortion cascaded across my monitor. I imagined alarms going off in the university computing center, "porn alert in Morrison Hall!" and a furious call from the Director and the student's mother. "Shut it off!" I screamed. The student was on the verge of tears. I stared frantically around, then dove under the desk. There was a loud crack and descending whine from the computer when I yanked the power cord from the wall. I sat back in the chair next to my desk and was quiet for a minute. The student started tracing the grain in my desk-top. I cleared my throat and said, "let's call this test over. You pass. You can go." She walked out without a word, and the next student walked in wide-eyed. I don't recall what I had him search for, but I never again tried to see Zan without her makeup. Jim Picht - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: James Picht Subject: Re: [AML] Spiritual Pornography Date: 23 Aug 2001 16:27:53 -0500 Amelia Parkin wrote: > I have to jump to Tony's (and anyone else who has claimed to accidently > encounter porn) defense here... I did a web search for Chinua Achebe and > _Arrow of God_ and came up with a list of a lot of hits... One, very clearly > labeled as an Achebe website led me to a porn site. I was giving exams in my office for an applied computer course. My young victim sat in my chair at my computer, and I sat to the side watching benignly and giving instructions. For the web-search part of the exam I asked a young lady to find me a picture of the actress who played Zan on the series _Farscape_ (she's so lovely in blue makeup, her cheekbones so perfect, that I was suddenly desirous to see her real face). The student found a _Farscape_ website, clicked here and there, and seemed well on her way to finding the picture I wanted. Then the wrong picture appeared. I don't know if it was Zan. I only know she wasn't wearing blue makeup or anything else, and she was much more top-heavy than most women. After an instant of shock, I instructed to student to close that window. She'd already moved to do so, but two more sexually explicit pictures popped onto the screen. "Go back," I cried with some urgency. The student was flustered, but she began clicking across that screen with urgency like my own. It was like trying to behead the hydra. She'd click a picture closed and two more would appear. "Stop! Stop!" Nude women were erupting from every side of the screen. There was no space between my student and the wall, I couldn't get around her to take away the mouse, I was blocking her egress, and pictures of naked women performing remarkable feats of contortion cascaded across my monitor. I imagined alarms going off in the university computing center, "porn alert in Morrison Hall!" and a furious call from the Director and the student's mother. "Shut it off!" I screamed. The student was on the verge of tears. I stared frantically around, then dove under the desk. There was a loud crack and descending whine from the computer when I yanked the power cord from the wall. I sat back in the chair next to my desk and was quiet for a minute. The student started tracing the grain in my desk-top. I cleared my throat and said, "let's call this test over. You pass. You can go." She walked out without a word, and the next student walked in wide-eyed. I don't recall what I had him search for, but I never again tried to see Zan without her makeup. Jim Picht - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: RE: [AML] Used LDS Books for Sale? Date: 23 Aug 2001 16:02:09 -0700 Deseret Book already has a good LDS book auction site at auctions.deseretbo= ok.com, which I've used to unload a lot of Mormon stuff. I'll give you $5 for the Bela Petsco book. (I borrowed your copy years ago = and dutifully returned it, remember?) Chris Bigelow=20 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Morris Subject: Re: [AML] Email Essays Date: 23 Aug 2001 16:01:27 -0700 (PDT) --- Barbara Hume wrote: > At 04:41 PM 8/9/01 -0600, you wrote: > >We *could* discuss what I consider to be a new > literary genre if we > >wanted. Since many of us publish in it, it might > be interesting to see > >if it qualifies as a genre and what rules might > apply. I'm talking > >about the email essay of course. > > I've read many beautifully composed, > thought-provoking (or just plain > provoking, in the case of Thom Duncan ) messages > on this list, and I've > saved many of them. I can see it as a literary > genre. It would be > interesting to analyze why such essays feel > different from others. Perhaps > it's because we don't tend to structure them in the > same way as print > essays. They seem more linear or chronological than > arranged in terms > of opening, thesis, supporting details, restatement > of thesis, and > conclusion with a clincher, or whatever formal > structure you prefer. > It seems to me that many of the e-mail essays that appear on this list are similar in form to the formal letters that writers have sometimes exchanged during the course of their careers. What I like about the format is that they're not just essays where someone lays out their take---they are part of a conversation and so ideas and terms get added to and nuanced in interesting sometimes surprising ways. Certainly, all literature and literary criticism is part of a greater conversation, but with a list like this, the conversation is more immediately reactive (although it also becomes digressive as well, which I like all the more). Linear and chronological are both good terms. I'm trying to think of more, but none cry out. Wait, linear I get because oftentimes the writing is not a parallel structured or syllogistic as a 'formal' essay, but what do you mean by chronological? ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronn Blankenship Subject: Re: [AML] Spiritual Pornography Date: 23 Aug 2001 17:35:34 -0500 At 12:02 PM 8/22/01, Rex Goode wrote: >I don't think that chocolate can be an addiction, because I can think of >no compelling reasons to not partake. Can't think of any reasons right now? Just weight. --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rich Hammett Subject: [AML] Re: Reader's Digest Articles Date: 23 Aug 2001 18:27:30 -0500 (CDT) On Thu, 23 Aug 2001, helena.chester wrote: > Two great articles in the September Reader's Digest--one on "The Healing > Power of Faith", and the other on the Mormon, Pierre Anthian, who has > established a homeless men's choir. I have come across other stories of > Mormons in the Reader's Digest, and have wondered if there was a Mormon > on the editorial board. Does anyone here know? I don't know about that, but with their conservative, family-oriented editorial policy (conservative and family-oriented are two different things), mormons form a core part of their US audience. Also, I haven't read the article "The Healing Power of Faith," but generally those articles are riddled with medical, scientific, and logical errors. Is that one online? rich -- Rich Hammett http://home.hiwaay.net/~rhammett rhammett@hiwaay.net The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. --GBS - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: luannstaheli Subject: Re: [AML] Used LDS Books for Sale? Date: 23 Aug 2001 18:15:58 -0600 Val, I've actually sold some of the classic LDS titles on ebay, (and bought some too) so I'm sure there's a market outside of the listserve (and hopefully within ; - ) ) Glad to see you're alive and well! Haven't had a chance to talk with you in a long time. Life stays pretty busy with two kids. Lu Ann - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Bigelow Subject: [AML] Eugene England Date: 23 Aug 2001 18:15:34 -0600 It seems like virtually everything worthwhile in the Mormon intellectual and literary communities has Eugene England's fingerprints all over it. The most important class of my whole English master's degree at BYU was Gene's Mormon literature class, which opened new horizons for me. I continue to be deeply involved in interests and associations first discovered under Gene's tutelage in that class, such as Wasatch Review International (now defunct) and the Association for Mormon Letters, which he helped start. When I wrote a term paper on the author Walter Kirn, Gene loaned me personal correspondence he'd had with Kirn and allowed me to quote from it in my paper, which was later published. He founded Dialogue and was heavily involved with Sunstone, which have both been very important to me. Not too long ago I interviewed with Gene and some others for the Sunstone editor position, and I was impressed with his hopes for the magazine to move past some of the bad blood of recent years. When he left BYU, I passed along a rumor on an e-mail list that BYU had forced him into early retirement, and he firmly corrected me. I imagine there was some truth to the rumor, but I admire him for overcompensating so he didn't take on the stink of disaffection. He really was an example of how to be a force for cultural change without losing the faith. I've read some of his literary criticism, and I have a book of his personal essays on my shelf to read some day. I saw him just a few days before his initial collapse. It was at the Jan Shipps lecture at UVSC, which he organized as part of the great work he was getting underway there. He smiled and waved in my direction, and I looked behind me because I wasn't sure he meant me, but apparently he did. I didn't quite reach the level of personal friendship with him, but he is probably the closest thing I've had to a mentor. He declined to be on my master's thesis committee, and he never responded to a novel manuscript I sent him after he offered to take a look at it, but in retrospect I'm glad I didn't take too much of his time that was obviously devoted to so many bigger and better things. Christopher Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tony Markham Subject: Re: [AML] Spiritual Pornography Date: 23 Aug 2001 22:28:21 -0400 Diann T Read wrote: > Tony (and AML List), > > While there were a number of points in your piece on "spiritual > pornography" that I agreed with completely, I'm truly hoping that you > were taking the role of devil's advocate to a new extreme when you stated > that you were sufficiently offended by the cover of a recent issue of the > Ensign that you would not renew your subscription. On the off-chance you > were actually serious, may I offer the following? > > So the photo of the "choir" on the cover was obviously staged. Most > cover photos are. *So what?* There comes a time when necessity and > practicality have to take precedence over "art." Waiting around for an > elusive "perfect" candid > shot simply isn't conducive with meeting publishing deadlines. A while back the list was talking about the "Church of Christ" and how their name is or is not likely to be confused with ours. I was actually a convert from the Church of Christ and still think it was a good foundation for learning about the restored gospel. Church history bears me out on this, the CofC began as a group called the Campbellites headquartered in Kirtland, Ohio in the 1830s. Many of the early LDS stalwarts came from this group--Edward Partridge, Sidney Rigdon, Orson Hyde, to name but a few. And Me! Anyway, I still get stuff from them in the mail. I went to their big flagship school, Harding University, before I went to BYU and I'm on their alumni list. About a week ago I got their Summer issue of "Church and Family." A slick mag with faith promoting articles. I was thinking about how much more I enjoyed the "Ensign" especially when I turned to an article on p.3 called "Sending Your Child Off to College" by Mike Root. It featured a photo of some predatory vampire-looking girl. She was supposed to look all nice-nice and innocent, but I found her expression to be profoundly disturbing. I thought, at least the Ensign doesn't stoop to using scary pictures like this. So yesterday I get my September 2001 Ensign. I was utterly discouraged by the cover again. Overly posed and unnatural. Cartoonish even, but still nice when compared with that blonde vampirella from the other mag. As I looked through the rest I just about had a heart attack. On p.8 was the exact same scary photo of predator girl. It had been filtered to look like a painting and flowers and seagulls and palm trees had been overlaid on it, but everything about the girl herself was a mirror image. Every last strand of hair. It was cropped to that the girl's full posture wasn't apparent and that helped take away some of the disturbing qualities, as did the filter and overlays. But it was the exact same photo. What gives? Is the church so destitute of artists, illustrators, and photographers that they must resort to clip-art? The chances of my being struck by both photos within a week of each other, and making the connection between the two magazines is preposterously small. It goes beyond coincidence and into the realm of the vast universe tapping me on the shoulder and saying, "Pssst, Tony--I'd like to show you something..." Clip Art. That is the definition of mediocrity and that about sums it up. > I think you're reading too much--or more likely too little--into things > like magazine covers and Church films. I've heard people criticize the > temple films the same way, and I'll say to you now the same thing I say > to them: Why would you say to me what you say to them? I have never and will never criticize anything to do with the temple or its ordinances. For you to link me and my post with that level of nay-sayer is hurtful and misrepresenting. Please stop. I thank you in advance. Tony Markham - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tami Miller" Subject: Re: [AML] Used LDS Books for Sale? Date: 24 Aug 2001 03:12:08 +0000 I usually go to used bookstores to find LDS and literary type books, but this week we were short on money and I just HAD to find something to read. I went to Deseret Industries and found quite a few selections. A Prayer for Owen Meaney; John Irving I Hated Heaven; Kenny Kemp and The Deep and of the Ocean. I also got my children about ten Dr. Seuss books. I hoarde my books, and my children's books. I still have Nancy Drew books, and Anne of Avonlea, Jane Eyre, from when I was about ten years old, you know `girly books'. It's amazing what people will throw away, even give away. [Tami Miller] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paris ANDERSON" Subject: [AML] re: Eugene England Date: 23 Aug 2001 21:15:03 -0600 I'm grateful to have this list as a way to express some horrible, very = sad, sad feelings I've had. I was in Tennesee when I heard about Eugene = England. It made me very sad. I would have liked to have made = everything all better for him, but I didn't. And now he's gone, and I = can't even tell him thank you. And I can't tell him how much it meant = that he put his arm around me once and gave me a hug. So maybe if I = tell everyone else . . .. I had a big head-injury when I was a kid, and it really messed up my = brain. If I get emotional I almost can't talk. Sometimes I have faith = in strange ideas. I have big memory problems. And huge (and = improbable) leaps in logic in my thoughts. But when I write--even about = things that cause big emotions for me--I can get all the way through and = sometimes I can end up with something semi-coherant. Sometimes not. So = I guess that makes me something of a wild thing and a little bit = psychotic. A lot of people are apprehensive around me, and some treat = me like there's something wrong with me so they would rather not have me = around. Which even I can understand (I get nervous around wackos, too.) Anyway, I've been struggling with post tramatic stress disorder for a = long time and I've been working working on a personal essay, trying to = help myself get through it (it doesn't help, I found out--writing about = it doesn't even take the edge off.) Brother England has been very = friendly to me over the years, so I asked him to critique the essay. He = did, and he insisted on returning it in person. He got out of his truck = (SUV, I think) walked across the lawn, without a word, and just hugged = me. Maybe because I wasn't expecting it that it struck me so deep, but = it almost made me cry. It was like one of the big boys was telling me = my life, my pain, my suffering is legitimate--even if I am bat-shit and = don't count for much. I would like to have thanked him, because that made me feel cool. I = can't now. Paris Anderson - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: [AML] Fw: MN News Briefs: Singles Film Date: 24 Aug 2001 00:43:16 -0400 BYU Film Grads Producing 'The Singles Ward' PROVO, UTAH -- Two BYU film grads are producing a feature-length film entitled "The Singles Ward," giving a humorous look at the peculiarities of life in a typical singles ward. Screenwriter John Moyer and Director Kurt Hale hope to add comedy to the nascent LDS film genre, "We want 'The Singles Ward' to be a classic film that every single adult wants to have in their film library," said Moyer. "We're approaching our religion with the utmost reverence, but we're also shining a pretty hot light on our culture." Director Hale adds that viewers will recognize some of the cast, "There will definitely be prominent LDS celebrities making cameo appearances," he said. Moyer finished the screenplay just as the buzz about Richard Dutcher's "Brigham City" started. The film's release is planned for January 4th. Film to feature life in LDS singles ward BYU NewsNet 13Aug01 A2 http://newsnet.byu.edu/?story=32330 By Sally Atkinson: NewsNet Staff Writer >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NJHERZMAN@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] LDS Booksellers Convention Date: 24 Aug 2001 02:46:34 EDT In a message dated 08/23/2001 12:14:47 PM Pacific Daylight Time, SCHMIDLG@con2.byu.edu writes: > "How many Mormons do you think have read Homer? None!" > I'm happy to be in such good company, Roy. I don't know who posed the question, but I, too, am a Mormon and have read Homer. I admit, however, that I read it before I was converted to the faith, but that does not change the fact that I am a Mormon and HAVE read Homer. It seems to me that this individual must not have been thinking very clearly to make such a generalization. Here's to good books (clinking my milk glass against my granddaughter's 7-UP!) Norma Jean Herzman, a major lurker. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: [AML] Dogs and Cats Date: 23 Aug 2001 15:25:28 -0600 At 12:47 AM 8/23/01 -0600, you wrote: >No one would made the mistake twice of letting their slobbery pets leap >up on me either. I think I've found a fellow curmudgeon here. Say--somone could write a story in which it is the hero rather than the villain who does not like dogs! Barbara R. Hume barbara@techvoice.com (801) 765-4900 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Craig Huls Subject: [AML] Dogs and Cats Date: 24 Aug 2001 07:59:38 -0500 D. Michael Martindale" wrote: Barbara Hume wrote: > I was recently back home on vacation, and I couldn't believe > that my siblings could spend three solid hours talking about their dogs. > Dogs! And they didn't understand why I didn't want their hairy, slobbery > pets leaping up on me. No one would made the mistake twice of letting their slobbery pets leap up on me either. I would consider dogs the ultimate evil communist plot, if cats didn't exist. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com Craig responds: Woof Woof, ssssllllrrrrppppp! The unconditional love of a dog is something that I intend to write about one day. Dogs have special spirits, they serve us well. We can see much about a dogs master in the way the dog behaves. Like humans, if a dog is abused as it is raised you will see problems. I think you can define a character in a book with how the dog behaves in your writing. Mean dog, probably abusive, mean character. Heaven will not be heaven if I cannot have a good nuzzle from my fine four legged friends. I control my dogs when people do not want contact. In fact my dogs know the difference, they present themselves and if the person withdraws so do they. The loyalty of a dog to a master who loves them is parallel to the love of the Savior. Just one man's opinion. I know!.... But I have a book planned that only tells about my own fine four legged friends over the time line of my life. One saved my life. Another had total respect for a PH blessing. When ill she would come into my office and sit by the cabinet where the consecrated oil was kept. Never had a Vet bill with that dog. She had faith and she lived 16 years, a long time for a golden retriever. So there, Barbara and Michael, Ruff! Ruff! and another SSSlllllRRRppp!(g) Craig Huls - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terri Reid" Subject: Re: [AML] Irreantum fiction contest winners Date: 24 Aug 2001 08:42:39 -0700 Thanks! Terri ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 9:53 AM > Terri Reid wrote: > > >This is such a sore spot with me (pats on the head.) I find that - except > >for you folks - I don't share my writing successes with members of the > >church. (Well, actually with members of my ward.) > > > > "And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet > [writer] is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own > house." Matt. 13:57 > > -BJ Rowley > > > > > > - > AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature > http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terri Reid" Subject: Re: [AML] Irreantum fiction contest winners Date: 24 Aug 2001 08:54:33 -0700 Is he still a friend? :) Terri Reid ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 9:56 AM > > A friend told me that he would have thought the ms he read was wonderful if > someone else had written it, but since it was only me. . . .> > Barbara R. Hume > barbara@techvoice.com > (801) 765-4900 > > - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sue Ann" Subject: Re: [AML] Used LDS Books for Sale? Date: 24 Aug 2001 11:29:53 -0700 I have been lurking on this list for awhile and Valerie has inspired me to get brave and speak out. I'm not a writer but love to read and have found some of your discussions fascinating. I have also read a couple of books that I never would have picked up if I hadn't read about them on this list. I am a convert, single and outside Utah so on the outer edges of the "Mormon culture". I have never heard of the books that Valerie mentioned but I'd like to read them. I would really appreciate having access to used books especially if they had mini reviews. During a short trip it Utah the friend that I was staying with gave me a choice of where she would take me during my 4 free hours. I opted for Benchmark Books where I got my own copy of "Discourses on the Holy Ghost" which includes "Lectures on Faith". I had never even heard of the "Lectures.." until a friend lent me the book. I also went to a DI store and struggled onto the plane with all the books I could carry. I don't have time to read everything but I do enjoy scanning through this list. Sue Reuser Orland, CA - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: [AML] Fw: MN Edited Video Efforts Again Make National News: Seattle WA Times ( Date: 24 Aug 2001 11:17:31 -0400 Edited Video Efforts Again Make National News KAYSVILLE, UTAH -- While many members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints abhor Hollywood's idea of entertainment, Clean Cut Videos, which opened last month in Kayesville, Utah, is doing something about it. Finally, Mark Cronin, who swore off fillms with R-ratings, can go to the movies, even if it is at home. According to a recent Associated Press story, carried in newspapers nationwide, Clean Cut Videos, owned and operated by Braxton and Brian Schenk, have 62 edited titles in their library and add three new ones weekly. The Schenks are upstarts in this business and credit Ray Lines, as the Utah pioneer who came up with the idea of clean videos. "I've had my lawyers call every one of those guys. It's not a priority for the movie houses," Lines said of his untested legal ground. Lines has three CleanFlicks video stores near Provo, about 60 miles south of the Schenk's store. "After some hostile muttering, the film industry has been silent," Lines said. Several calls to Hollywood studios, directors and film industry organizations were ignored or deflected. "We're going to have no comment on that," said Dream Works studio spokeswoman, Cheryl Glenn. Dream Works studio's film "Gladiator" is among those the video clubs are editing. "It's a win for Hollywood because everyone of these we've purchased," Lines said, pointing to the 250 titles in his Pleasant Grove store. Not everyone agrees that it is a good idea to alter the film. "The very idea that seeing a movie after someone else has 'cleaned it up'...is so stupid as to be insulting," said Geoff McMurtry, a Sundance Film Festival buff. "There are plenty of 'Who's the Boss' reruns on TV right now, for just this very audience." Despite the criticism the Schenks believe that entertainment is about good stories, not bad language. "Great movies are great because they have a great story line, not because they drop the 'F-bomb," David Schenk said. The "F-bomb" is dropped 139 times in "Good Will Hunting", a movie they believe is worth the editing. "Saving Private Ryan" has 90 profanities that are now silenced, but the pwerful portrayal of WWII combat remains. Some films such as "Showgirls," a 1995 movie about erotic dancers in Las Vegas, could never be cut enough. "There would be nothing but the opening and closing credits if the Schenks gave it their standard edit," David said. Lines, who finds vulgar movie dialogue offensive, claims he doesn't have to sit through the sex and profanity in order to edit the videos. "We don't have to watch a scene to be able to edit it," Lines said. He uses a Web site called "Screen It" to find the offensive parts. Source: Utah video clubs edit films for sex and profanity, turning R-rated movies into G Seattle WA Times (AP) 18Aug01 B2 http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com:80/cgi-bin/texis/web/vortex/displa y?slug=cleanvideos18&date=20010818 By Rich Vosepka: The Associated Press >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Annette Lyon" Subject: [AML] Cliches in Science Fiction Date: 24 Aug 2001 10:41:46 -0600 >Anyone have any others to add? In a computer adventure game called _Under a Killing Moon_ the main character comments on a painting in his apartment, and it came out as something like: Hey, that painting reminds me about that one Star Trek episode were the crew got stuck on that planet, and that sexy alien seduced Kirk, and at the end Spock made a comment that made the crew chuckle as they headed off on their next adventure! I laughed heartily--and I'm a SF fan. I'm surprised to hear that Star Trek has a cliche wall, because they keep using cliches, even recycling Next Generation plots into Voyager. Annette Lyon - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] George W. GIVENS, _Out Of Palmyra_ (Review) Date: 24 Aug 2001 13:57:02 -0600 Barbara Hume wrote: > At 06:09 AM 8/22/01 -0700, you wrote: > >> . I was not aware that there were "well-established patterns >> of known fraudulent behavior". Certainly we've all read >> accounts of religious charlatans and noticed certain >> similarities, but they are few and far between. > > > I read somewhere that one typical behavior of a fraudulent religious > leader is to set up a mechanism whereby he gets to sleep with selected > young females from among his flock. H'mmmmmm-- > You've touched upon a point of Givens' argument that is weak, imo. I'm only going on Jeff Needle's review, not having read the book, but it appears to me that Givens is taking the position that there are only two ways to explain Joseph Smith: Prophet or Fraud (with fraud, implying a willful attempt to deceive). This is a specious argument because it simplfies what I believe is a complex situation and it insults followers of other "prophets" (despite Given's quote to the contrary). Harold Bloom addresses what I think is an equally valid argument: Joseph Smith as a genuine religious mystic in the tradition of Saint Francis of Assissi or Buddah or Mohammed. Surely this must be considered in any work of literature attempting to understand Joseph Smith in an objective way. Granted, that wasn't Given's purpose -- he's apparently bearing his testimony based on spiritual promptings and such evidence needs no buttressing since it is entirely personal. Yes, there are religious charlatans, but there are also sincere religious mystics. To suggest that there are only two ways to explain Joseph Smith and then systematically dismantle one of them -- with the intention in mind of suggesting that therefore Joseph MUST be a prophet -- is slopppy writing for a book that apparently is meant to convert people to the Church. Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "helena.chester" Subject: RE: [AML] Reader's Digest Articles Date: 25 Aug 2001 06:10:11 +1000 > > Also, I haven't read the article "The Healing Power of Faith," but > generally those articles are riddled with medical, > scientific, and logical > errors. Is that one online? > > rich It wasn't on the Readers Digest sites I looked up on the web. It's a very basic summary of the positive evidence for the efficacy of prayer and faith, and not limited only to Christianity. They also have a table summarising their article giving these points as the positive effects.... * Longer life (about 7 years) * Overall well- being (fewer health problems) * Better recovery after surgery * Less heart disease * Lower blood presure * Good mental health * Reduced stress You might like to contrast this with another presentation on this topic on Radio National (Australia) last week. http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/helthrpt/stories/s349269.htm extract... When you tell people that religious activity is good for their health, you automatically imply the opposite which is that bad health is a product of insufficient devotion or insufficient faith, and that’s a horrible thing to say. Norman Swan: Is there any evidence, even anecdotally, that some physicians are changing their practice in the United States because of a belief that religion is healthy? Richard Sloan: It’s hard to get systematic evidence. There is anecdotal evidence. We published an article in Medscape which is the Internet medical journal, Medcscape general medicine, and one of the respondents was an evangelical Christian physician who declared that it was his duty to evangelise in the medical setting, because he was a Christian above all else. I want to make clear that this in no way is an argument against religion, it’s in no way an argument against the fact that patients experience many times, comfort under conditions of disease. The question we’re addressing is whether medicine, organised medicine, can add anything to that, and the answer we think is no. There is little doubt, no doubt, that religion brings comfort to people in times of distress associated with illness, but physicians really have nothing to do with that, and should have nothing to do with that. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: RE: [AML] Eugene England Date: 24 Aug 2001 13:56:07 -0700 Paris, if you haven't already, make sure you send that to 'gene.charlotte@a= ttglobal.net'. In obituaries the family has asked for remembrances (that = was what I wrote my earlier paragraph for). And was that the essay that will appear in the summer Irreantum?=20 Chris Bigelow -----Original Message----- I'm grateful to have this list as a way to express some horrible, very =3D sad, sad feelings I've had. I was in Tennesee when I heard about Eugene = =3D England. It made me very sad. [snip] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ethan Skarstedt" Subject: RE: [AML] Dogs and Cats Date: 24 Aug 2001 14:10:52 -0600 I don't think so. A hero who doesn't like dogs would be impossible to relate to, at least for all right-thinking people. -Ethan Skarstedt -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 3:25 PM At 12:47 AM 8/23/01 -0600, you wrote: >No one would made the mistake twice of letting their slobbery pets leap >up on me either. I think I've found a fellow curmudgeon here. Say--somone could write a=20 story in which it is the hero rather than the villain who does not like dogs! Barbara R. Hume barbara@techvoice.com (801) 765-4900 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] LDS Booksellers Convention Date: 24 Aug 2001 14:18:24 -0600 NJHERZMAN@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 08/23/2001 12:14:47 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > SCHMIDLG@con2.byu.edu writes: > > > >>"How many Mormons do you think have read Homer? None!" >> >> > I'm happy to be in such good company, Roy. I don't know who posed the > question, but I, too, am a Mormon and have read Homer. I admit, however, > that I read it before I was converted to the faith, but that does not change > the fact that I am a Mormon and HAVE read Homer. It seems to me that this > individual must not have been thinking very clearly to make such a > generalization. > I suspect the writer was using hyperbole. I bet if we did a survey of every English speaking LDS who has read Homer, the percentage of yes answers would be statistically insignificant. But, as someone else on this list recently posted, this is probably reflective of the larger society of which we Mormons are only a subset. It's still no less embarassing given that we believe that the Glory of God is intelligence. Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: RE: [AML] Eugene England Date: 24 Aug 2001 14:31:50 -0600 ---Original Message From: Paris ANDERSON > I would like to have thanked him, because that made me feel > cool. I can't now. I don't want to be too glib about this because it is a heart-felt emotion, but LDS theology pretty much guarantees that your statement is false. I never knew Eugene England except through his essays so I don't have as personal a connection as you do, nor as much to thank him for. But personally, I still look forward to thanking him someday. And if you really want to thank him, you have a mutual acquaintance who *can* reach him, even now, with your thanks. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: RE: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 24 Aug 2001 14:55:21 -0600 ---Original Message From: MGA I don't want to take you to task point by point, but I consider your opinion of LDS members overly pessimistic. I doubt that MOST members would be offended by knowing more about Joseph Smith. I doubt that MOST members would object to an accurate portrayal of Joseph Smith if it were written by a non-member. The nutball LDS population is a lot smaller than people think. Just because they are more vocal and tend to get more press doesn't mean that they represent the majority of church members. Reading letters to the editor or listening to the one crack-pot in your ward discourse about the evils of Richard Dutcher gives a really skewed view of what the majority of members are really like. The majority of people I know loved "God's Army". We have very deep discussions about Joseph Smith in our Sunday School class (this is the year for D&C after all) and I'd say that the majority of the class is very well informed about the specifics of Joseph's life--warts and all. And when I mention plural marriage in priesthood, none of the Elders are surprised that Joseph Smith slept with other women besides Emma. I got one Elder who gave the party line that he married old women and/or the marriages were simply formalities, but he didn't apostatize when I informed him he was wrong. I think that our artists need to be very careful about holding our regular members in casual disregard. To bring in a different thread, I know at least three LDS members within walking distance that I guarantee have read Homer (though not in the original--I know only one member personally who has done that). One of my greatest discontents with LDS literature as it stands now is that too much of it either dumbs itself down or assumes protective pretensions. Where's the honest middle ground that can assume I have a brain and yet not pander to some elitist aesthetic? Anyway, I think we make a tragic mistake if we let ourselves believe that the average member is ignorant or simple. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Email Essays Date: 24 Aug 2001 15:25:08 -0600 At 04:01 PM 8/23/01 -0700, you wrote: >Wait, linear I get because oftentimes the writing is >not a parallel structured or syllogistic as a 'formal' >essay, but what do you mean by chronological? I admit to using the term loosely--chronological in the sense of one thing succeeding another in time: as our thoughts succeed one another in time, that's how we report them in the e-mail essays. Have you ever found youself thinking about something, then wondered, "How did my brain get on this subject?" and then you had to track back through your thoughts to see what led to what? I recently came across a definition of time as that which keeps one dang thing after another from becoming a lot of dang things all at once. (Hope I didn't get it from list.) barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gideon Burton Subject: [AML] re: Eugene England Date: 24 Aug 2001 16:36:09 -0600 I appreciated Chris Bigelow telling about Gene England's influence, and I hope many others will share their accounts. Here's mine. When a friend sent Dialogues With Myself to me as a missionary in Quebec in 1984, I discovered a gracious and engaging voice that modeled to me how Mormons could talk freely and deeply about things concerning both the mind and heart. As he was with everyone, Gene was kind and encouraging to me. As I sat in his BYU office as his student one day, musing about the ideal kinds of writing and writers our LDS community needed, he commented, both casually and sincerely, that maybe I could fill that need. Gene made me feel that I had something to say, and his own writings gave me a model for how to say it. Gene infected me with his idealism, especially with the way he gave new birth to Orson Whitney's and President Kimball's visions for Mormon arts. His "Mormon Literature: Progress and Prospects" does more than give an overview of LDS literature; it lays a map out for LDS writers, inviting them to more fully live up to their cultural and theological privileges when they write. I feel like that article was my literary patriarchal blessing. (It's online at http://humanities.byu.edu/mldb/progress.htm if you haven't read it!) Gene also awed me with his combination of unapologetic opinion and patient Christian benevolence. Sometimes he would take an extreme position, but he was as good natured about modifying that as he was about letting people come over to his home. When I edited a piece he did for Dialogue in 1999, he graciously modified some of his claims when I reasoned to him a contrary position. Gene agreed to write for me when I tried to start a Mormon literary review in 1992, and a few years later when I became faculty at BYU he invited me to start up a new periodical with him. When that did not come to fruition, he connected me with Neal and Becky Chandler so I could help channel more literary work to Dialogue through my connections with the Association for Mormon Letters. Gene and I worked together to set up a database of Mormon Literature that is online through BYU's library, and I was able to republish one of Gene's essay collections, Why the Church is as True as the Gospel, through Tabernacle Books in 1999. In the introduction to that republication I said most clearly what I feel Gene's contribution has been, so I'll conclude this long post (sorry) with those words (which include Orson Scott Card's assessment, too). Gideon Burton Why the Church is as True as the Gospel Editor's Preface There is a characteristic tone to the essays of Eugene England that is very much at the heart of his views. It is a tone of commitment and faith. I might have labeled England's tone as "thought-provoking," which it is, yet he is so personally involved, so attached to Mormon beliefs, leaders, and people that his essays lack the off-putting aloofness or smugness of an intellectual. I might have called England's tone "personal," which it is, yet his passion is yoked not to an agenda but to the community, the beliefs, and the believers that have nurtured him, and to the truth that Jesus taught would set us free. There is a rigor to England's writing, a persistent sense of fairness-an openness, one might say-that resists the tendency to slip into bias or soapboxing. And there is unmistakable loyalty and optimism, too, side by side with criticism and analysis. Perhaps this is evidence of how seriously England has taken Paul's admonition (which is the epigraph to England's inaugural essay in the first issue of Dialogue), "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good" (1 Thess. 5:21). England will not relinquish the gifts of the mind or the heart: he both proves (tests, tries), and holds fast that which is good. The most appropriate term for the tone of England's essays is commitment and faith. England's "best and most valuable insights could only have been spoken by someone who sees the world from the perspective of a committed member of the Church," observed Orson Scott Card in a review of Why the Church is as True as the Gospel: "[England's] life is not the servant of his mind; his mind is the servant of his life. He is a Saint whose abilities are consecrated to the building up of the Kingdom of God. Among those abilities are intellect and language, but there is no hint in his writing that he esteems them any higher than other abilities that he or other Saints might have." England conveys what Elder Neal A. Maxwell suggests when he talks about the combination of discipline and discipleship, or what B. H. Roberts intended when that earlier apostle articulated the ideal of "intelligent discipleship": "[Mormonism] calls for thoughtful disciples who will not be content with merely repeating some of its truths, but will develop its truths; and enlarge it by that development....The disciples of "Mormonism"... will yet take profounder and broader views of the great doctrines committed to the Church; and, departing from mere repetition, will cast them in new formulas; cooperating in the works of the Spirit, until they help to give to the truths received a more forceful expression and carry it beyond the earlier and cruder stages of its development." This is England's gift, and the unique balance of his prose. England must use his mind in the service of his church, and he will not abandon his faith nor his covenants of consecration which orient the use of his intellectual gifts. He is simultaneously an eloquent apologist for the Mormon cause, and one of its most loyal critics. Once again, Orson Scott Card articulates the careful balance England maintains throughout this particular book of essays: "Implicit in [England's] writing is the truth that life without full participation in the Church is not life at all. Implicit also is the truth that full participation in the Church does not require or even reward the abandonment of intellect. The true Saint hungers for greater light and knowledge, and greater light and knowledge cannot be had apart from participation in the community of Saints." Eugene England has been at the vanguard of many advances in Mormon literature. In 1966 he founded Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, which has provided a venue for the publication of Mormon stories, poetry, and criticism. He has more recently edited three anthologies of Mormon literature. He has shaped both the past and future of Mormon writing through the Association for Mormon Letters, which he cofounded and has actively promoted, through his book reviews and through his scholarly assessment of the Latter-day Saints' literary tradition. However, I credit England's greatest contribution to Mormon literature to be the model tone that he has set in his essays. As Mary Bradford has commented in her own seminal article on the personal essay form, Eugene England has been "devoted to the essay as a logical extension of that vital form-the testimony." These essays, then, are a kind of literary testimony, intended as much to "hold fast to that which is good" as they are to "prove all things." The Mormon Literary Library would never have been possible without Eugene England's prior work in and ongoing vision of Mormon literature. It is with some pride that we once again make available key writings from this literary pioneer. Gideon O. Burton Brigham Young University December, 1998 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Christopher Bigelow Subject: [AML] _Testaments_ Date: 24 Aug 2001 17:02:38 -0600 Recently I spent an afternoon on the expanded Temple Square downtown to accomodate the wishes of some out-of-state (member) visitors and my own curiosity about what it's like after about 20 months away (I used to work in the Church Office Bldg). First, I saw _Testaments_, and overall it wasn't _quite_ as bad as I thought it would be after following the AML-List discussion. With both Legacy Theater productions, I've been surprised at how much the movies have pandered to audiences with romantic elements and things like cute little monkeys. In _Testaments_, the romance was an important thread in the first half or so, but then it started seeming like the girlfriend was appearing everywhere as some kind of plot glue. Then they kind of forgot about the romance, which I guess you realistically would if the earth started shaking and the Savior came. But I'm not sure how well it was handled narratively. Also, I missed one huge plot twist. The main young man utters a short prayer in the forest, and then he looks up and the sun gets in his eyes. After that, he starts behaving like a believer again. I totally missed that flash of sunlight as some kind of epiphany that changed him. I had to ask my wife when he had suddenly changed back into a Mormon. I suppose the flash was a sort of placeholder for the explanation that comes later about the voice he heard. I didn't mind the Savior scenes, although there was one extremely schmaltzy scene with a little girl and a butterfly--my stomach literally turned over. During the destruction, I found myself wondering why there were so many fires everywhere when most everything was made of stone. How did the father know where to rescue the son? I guess the omnipresent girlfriend told him. And I noticed a missed dramatic opportunity that was another instance of the movie's narrative limitations--after the darkness, someone mentions they couldn't light a fire because the vapor was so thick. Why not show that? At the end, I couldn't understand how or why the Savior suddenly jumped from working with a group of people to standing in front of the blinded father. But I liked that they showed a lot of the daily grit and grime, and I felt they gave convincing authenticity to the market scenes and stuff. Someone had told me the bad guys were over the top, but I didn't mind them too much. I thought the main bad guy was portrayed well, though the screenplay got a little heavy-handed. I liked how the Savior was kind of homely and had weird hair--he looked almost boyish. I teared up only once, and it was because of my own musings prompted by but not directly related to the film. I couldn't believe how much people around me were sobbing and stuff, especially during the crucifixion scene. I didn't like the ending--the soaring music and declarative text were copouts, I thought. I'd probably take a nonmember to it, though I don't particularly want to watch it again myself. Then we toured the new Conference Center. Outside the little theater, I asked the hostesses what has been done there besides _Savior of the World_ twice, and they said nothing to their knowledge. They confessed they'd just been wondering themselves about what the Church was going to do with the theater--it seemed a shame to let it sit unused so much of the time. They speculated that maybe they are waiting until after the Olympics to get a real program going like Promised Valley used to have. I told them I thought it was probably more a problem of not knowing what to stage, since they don't want it to become an "Oklahoma" or "Saturday's Warrior" type place but the Church as an institution is culturally constipated and can't let anything else through without much deliberation and watering down. They should have "I Am Jane" there and stuff like that, but my hopes are not high. Chris Bigelow - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Needle" Subject: Re: [AML] George W. GIVENS, _Out Of Palmyra_ (Review) Date: 24 Aug 2001 17:31:17 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 2:09 PM > At 06:09 AM 8/22/01 -0700, you wrote: > >. I was not aware that there were "well-established patterns > > of known fraudulent behavior". Certainly we've all read > > accounts of religious charlatans and noticed certain > > similarities, but they are few and far between. > > I read somewhere that one typical behavior of a fraudulent religious leader > is to set up a mechanism whereby he gets to sleep with selected young > females from among his flock. H'mmmmmm-- > > > Barbara R. Hume > barbara@techvoice.com > (801) 765-4900 Ack! Another inventor of rules!!! You illustrate my point well. There really are no "well-established patterns" of such behavior, at least none that will please everyone.... - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Valerie Holladay Subject: Re: [AML] Eugene England Date: 24 Aug 2001 16:24:33 -0700 (PDT) I had an interesting experience with Gene England that I often tell the writers I work with, and it may be of interest to some of the writers on this list. I was fortunate enough, like Chris Bigelow, to take Gene's LDS lit class, and later he served on my thesis committee, since it was a collection of personal essays. (John Bennion was my advisor and I can't say enough good about him as a teacher and a writer.) But before I knew much about Gene beyond his personal essays, I wrote my own first personal essay for his LDS lit class. And I admit, I was frankly appalled by one of his suggestions. He was very positive about my essay, suggested I submit it to Dialogue, and then recommended that I try something surreal to emphasize some of the happenings in my essay. As I said, I was horrified and immediately rejected his suggestion (he made it verbally as he returned my essay to me), although I tried to be polite and pretended to consider it. I didn't want to change what I had done and I certainly didn't want to include something weird and surrealistic in my tender story of my mother. I couldn't imagine such a thing. But actually, that's exactly what happened. I did imagine it later that day as I drove home from campus(I was commuting from SL at the time). Without even consciously thinking of it, an image started to grow in my head and connect with some of the details in my story. Thirty minutes later I arrived home and wrote 10 pages nonstop (of course, later I revised and edited quite a bit). But it floored me that it worked so well and I had been so closed to the idea initially. So . . . just a thought. When an experienced editor or fellow writer makes a suggestion and your reaction is instinctively protective of your work, take the time to give it some consideration. It might actually be a terrific idea (granted, we aren't all so lucky to have a Gene England reading and commenting on our writing, but . . . I think good writing means not shutting any window or door without taking a long, thoughtful look through it). I feel very fortunate to have known Gene and felt his influence in my education as a writer and editor. We can still learn a lot from him. Valerie Holladay __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Marjorie Willson" Subject: Re: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 24 Aug 2001 19:12:34 -0600 I have to agree with what Bob Laur said and add my two cents to this part of what ROB LAUER wrote: >Most of the recent converts to the Church that I have met give little >or >no thought to Joseph. They have been baptized in almost complete >ignorance >of the facts concerning this man. This is too bad. As a >convert, it was >Joseph Smith and his distinctive doctrines that drew >me to the Church. He >was a fascinating human being, personifying in >numerous diverse ways what >it means for an individual to "work out >their own salvation with fear and >trembling. When we depict conversion to the church, in our writing, the focus is often on different aspects of the gospel. Different people have different experiences and keys which initially trigger their "Holy Ghost Light." However; we need to remember that the true key to a testimony of the truth of our church lies in the "Book of Mormon." And key to this is the story of how this book came into our hands. An indepth study of this process will eclipse all other factors in the conversion process. Faith based on healing, missionary karma, service projects, basketball, Saturday night dances, or many of the other programs of the church are all dimmed by an indepth examination and testing of this book and the man, Joseph Smith, who is responsible for it being at our fingertips today. If we are ever going to expose the nerves and heart of the church to mainstream literature we need to remember the importance of the Book of Mormon, what it is , and how we got it, are keys to our faith and our culture. These things were even key to the great pioneer movement. Without the Book of Mormon and our founding prophet, there would be no "Mormon Culture" and Utah would still be a deseret. Bill Willson, former writer in denial "Keep your hand moving and your Muse alive." - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: luannstaheli Subject: Re: [AML] LDS Booksellers Convention Date: 24 Aug 2001 20:36:18 -0600 Not only have I read the Odyssey, but I've read the Illiad as well--and not the condensed versions. [Luann Staheli] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 24 Aug 2001 23:29:43 -0600 ROB LAUER wrote: > The problem is not in the subject matter(Joseph Smith's life). The problem > lies with Latter-day Saints. To them, Joseph has become a mere symbol, an > icon for their own private interpretation of the Gospel. > I now that there will be great works of fiction inspired by the real life of > Joseph Smith. Unfortunately, I agree wholeheartedly with Harold Bloom when > he says (in his book THE AMERICAN RELIGION) that these great works will be > written by NON-MORMONS. When these works are created, MOST Saints--being > uncomfortable with not only our church's history, but also with its > doctrinal deviation from mainline Protestantism theology--will label the > work "anti-Mormon." (This is beyond dispute. Look at how many Church members > had reservations about a well-made, pro-LDS, "totally-Mormon" film like > BRIGHAM CITY--not to mention GOD'S ARMY.) I've had that experience already with my own first LDS novel (which unfortunately I can't give any details about until Marilyn Brown's contest has been completed--Marilyn?). It doesn't even have Joseph Smith in it. In my opinion, it doesn't attack the Gospel one bit--on the contrary, it obviously assumes the Gospel is true. Yet I've already had one reader label it "anti-Mormon," and it hasn't even been published yet. Why did he think it was anti-Mormon? Because the LDS characters in it didn't always behave in textbook Mormon fashion. They actually made mistakes, were lax in living some parts of the Gospel--they were (shudder) imperfect. Imagine this fellow reading about a true-to-life Joseph Smith. But I disagree that the great novels about Joseph Smith will only be written by nonmembers. There's no reason a member can't write such a thing. He or she would just have to be a courageous member, and expect that the book's audience may be outside the church more than inside. Bloom said what he said probably because he doesn't realize there are Mormons out there like me. > I've come to the conclusion that despite all our talk about Joseph Smith, he > still remains the great stumbling block for MEMBERS of the Church. This > problem (it IS a problem!) will only intensify as the Church puts greater > emphasis on popular Protestant images of Christ. Most of the recent converts > to the Church that I have met give little or no thought to Joseph. They have > been baptized in almost complete ignorance of the facts concerning this man. Now why does this trend remind me of the path the RLDS church has taken? They rejected some of the most interesting teachings of Joseph Smith from the beginning, more recently have de-emphasized the Book of Mormon to the point where the LDS visitors center in Independence MO has gotten a bunch of questions about the church from RLDS youth who are confused by the sudden de-emphasis, and to the point where a schism has taken place and those who object to the change founded the "Restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." And finally the RLDS church has virtually severed all ties to their prophetic heritage as they become the "Community of Christ." Call me silly, but isn't following that trend a little disturbing? As an author, if I chose to tackle the life of Joseph Smith, I would feel a strong obligation to resist such a trend, no matter how unsettling my book might be to some of my fellow Saints. I figure telling the truth is all the defense I need. If that defense isn't good enough for someone, I consider them to have the problem, not me. Marty - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 24 Aug 2001 23:37:50 -0600 Jacob Proffitt wrote: > Plus, it's an intriguing thought: What *would* Joseph do if he > were thrust into our modern world? I expect there'd be some interesting > fireworks... Oh, this is rich! Adolf Hitler really escaped to Argentina, Elvis Presley is still alive out there somewhere living incognito, and Joseph Smith didn't really die in Carthage Jail. The atmospherioc stress of all that gunshot happened to hit just the perfect configuration to create a time warp--a one in ten quadrillion chance that just happened to occur then--and he found himself on the tail-end of a Carthage Jail tour in the year 2001. This I gotta read! But wait, you say. They had the body of Joseph Smith. How do you account for that? Why, that's easy! After the modern adventures of Joseph Smith are completed, the LDS scientist from Michael Ritchey's _Disoriented_ figures out a way to send him back in time to when he left, he's then murdered, and history continues as if never interrupted. Marty - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Dogs and Cats Date: 24 Aug 2001 23:40:24 -0600 Barbara Hume wrote: > I think I've found a fellow curmudgeon here. Say--somone could write a > story in which it is the hero rather than the villain who does not like dogs! Well, whenever someone talks about giving the villain an enduring trait, they always seem to give the example that he likes to pet dogs. So I don't see why we can't have the wart we give the hero to make him more realistic that he likes to kick dogs. Marty - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kent S. Larsen II" Subject: [AML] Decline of Reviews of Mormon Books Date: 25 Aug 2001 00:00:42 -0400 I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but we've lost a couple of on-line sites that used to review Mormon books in recent months. Consider the following: 1. Meridian Magazine doesn't seem to be reviewing books or recommending them at the moment since its book columnist, Richard Cracroft, dropped out. 2. MormonVillage.com hasn't added new reviews in months, and I've recently learned that they are no longer updating their website, after their supporter, lds.net, ran into a trademark confrontation with the Church's lawyers. As far as I know, that leaves AML-list the only on-line site that regularly reviews Mormon lit. In addition, BYU Magazine always has a column on books in each issue, which is available on line, but issues are quarterly. Sunstone and Dialogue also review books, but the reviews aren't available on-line, and they sometimes fall behind schedule in publishing. Also, FARMS Review of Books has an occasional review on-line, and while BYU Studies reviews books, they aren't on-line (they don't even have a table of contents for current issues available). Does anyone have any other dependable sources for book reviews -- on or off line? Kent - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: Re: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 25 Aug 2001 00:35:56 -0700 On Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:17:22 Eric R. Samuelsen writes: > Gary mentioned Hamlet as the > greatest character study in the history of drama. But Hamlet is > about a guy who sees a ghost--everything else comes from that one > fact. So if we're going to write about Joseph Smith, we should find > that one thing we can hang a story on: Joseph's Ghost, so to speak. I believe Joseph's Ghost was named Moroni. There's a passage in Lucy McSmith that occasionally gets hooted at in the anti-Mormon press about Joseph telling the most entertaining tales about Book of Mormon people around the fireplace. (Imaginative fellow, says one writer.) I don't suppose that during those three annual visits before he gave Joseph the plates Joseph's Ghost was just repeating the same things he said four times on the night of September 21 (Hey, Matthew was born that day, after 44 hours of labor. When the substitute Dr. (the regular was on vacation) suggested a Kaiserschnitt Donna said, "Please," and I felt this odd sense of defeat, after all that pushing and coaching ("Shut up, you're not doing it right" (I do love the sound of "Take a deep cleansing breath")). I gave her a blessing then looked up into the concave mirror to see what was going on on the other side of the linen partition they had built. "Hey, they've already cut you open." "Don't tell me.") I suspect that the Ghost was telling Joseph about the culture he would be writing about. It's difficult to study a translation out in your mind if you don't know anything about the culture you're trying to translate. Could make a good play--stories of the Neophytes and Laminates juxtaposed against stories of the frontier. Maybe in the 2nd play the Ghost would be finding a prophecy about himself in the book he was translating, and how that affected what he did for the next 10 years. I suspect that in the third play the Ghost would be Joseph's need to keep asking questions: The Lord says, 'Don't ask about this unless you want to know,' then reveals Polly Gamy and her sisters as Joseph's gnu wives. Harlow S. Clark ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: [AML] Fw: MN Remembering England: Kent Larsen 24Aug01 A2 Date: 25 Aug 2001 09:35:06 -0400 Remembering England PROVO, UTAH -- Tomorrow hundreds of people are expected at the Provo Tabernacle to remember one of Mormonism's best known and most influential authors and intellectuals. G. Eugene England was widely known in spite of the fact that he never held Church-wide office. But he did start two of Mormonism's most enduring independent institutions and was heavily involved in another. He pushed for and encouraged the study of Mormon literature and Mormonism during a career of more than 20 years at BYU, and most recently founded the only center for the study of Mormonism. But six months ago, England was hit by a devastating case of brain cancer, to which he finally succumbed last Friday. During his 68 years, England built a reputation that will last for years. That reputation was built on successfully balancing both a faithfulness to the Church and the gospel with a faithfulness to an intellectual view of Mormonism that left him widely respected, but that left some suspicious of him. Born July 22, 1933 in Logan, Utah, England grew up on a wheat farm in Downey, Idaho. At age 20, he married Charlotte Ann Hawkins, and together they were called to serve an LDS mission to Samoa. [At that same time, England's father, George Eugene England, was serving as an LDS mission president over the North Central States Mission.] Following a stint in the Air Force, where England was a captain, he entered graduate school at Stanford in the 1960s. There England was influenced by the free speech movement, anti-war rallies and fair housing initiatives that characterized life on many U.S. college campuses in the 60s. But he was also an active member of the LDS Church and a leader in the local student ward. England says he felt caught between two different and conflicting worlds, "I was seen in each place as a totally different person;" he writes in an essay, "as a naive conservative [though strangely on the 'right' side about Vietnam and racism and educational bankruptcy] when I was at Stanford and as a dangerous liberal [though strangely obedient and devout and faithful] when I was at church." Since that time, England has struggled to bridge the two worlds, trying to get the academic community to take Mormon culture seriously and trying to get Mormons to be more thoughtful about Mormon culture. As a result he has sometimes been rejected, misinterpreted and vilified and other times revered for his thoughtful support of LDS teachings. In 1966, while at Stanford, England and fellow academic Wesley Johnson announced that they were founding a new academic journal to focus on Mormon culture. The quarterly journal, "Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought" attracted a number of LDS academics. One editorial board member was then University of Chicago Law Professor Dallin Oaks, now a member of the LDS Church's Council of the Twelve. Another was Laurel Ulrich, now a professor of early American history at Harvard and a winner of the Pulitzer Prize. Dialogue is still published today, 35 years after England and Johnson started the journal. But at the time, his efforts were seen as radical. After England and Johnson met with San Francisco Bay area LDS leaders about the journal, his stake president told him, "What you are planning looks very good, but if you do it, you will never hold high position in the church." After graduating from Stanford with his Ph.D., England taught at St. Olaf Lutheran College in Minnesota, where he argued for the school to maintain its religious emphasis at a time when other religious colleges were dropping theirs. But when some of his students started expressing interest in Mormonism, their parents complained and England was forced to leave. After teaching at the University of Utah's LDS Institute of Religion for two years, England was able to land a professorship at BYU, with the help of Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, now a member of the LDS Church's Council of the Twelve Apostles. England saw the position at BYU as a chance to work on Mormon literature, which had been ignored until then. He says he "caught hell from my academic friends, Mormon and non-Mormon alike, who wondered what I was doing with my interests and my gifts, going to BYU, because I would be oppressed." But England was able to teach classes in Mormon literature at BYU and in 1976 he helped found the Association for Mormon Letters, raising the visibility of the study of Mormon literature. Today, the AML remains the only institution supporting the study of Mormon letters, and the source of the only Mormon literary awards. At BYU England was also able to do what he felt he would not be able to do elsewhere, explore religious themes in important literary works, including older works like those of Shakespeare and more current work like that of John Updike. During this time England was also at his most prolific, writing books of essays such as "Dialogues with Myself" and "Why the Church Is as True as the Gospel," poetry, a biography and numerous articles. But in the past ten years, England felt like he was increasingly under fire at BYU for his work. He said that the 'culture wars' on many American campuses came to BYU, and other faculty members increasingly felt that modern forms of criticism such as feminism and post-modernism were wrong and devilish. BYU became increasingly less tolerant of the unorthodox. "Teaching in any way critical of Mormon culture was read as a criticism of the Mormon religion, even though there's a sharp distinction between the two that the prophets have always drawn," England said. "I could tell other faculty began to see me as an evil rather than liberating influence." So in 1998 England retired from BYU. While many observers have maintained that he was pushed out, England maintained otherwise. While he would never tell exactly what happened, apparently because he didn't want to damage BYU or appear to be disaffected from BYU. After struggling with what he saw as a rejection of his life's work, England was offered a position at Utah Valley State College; one that allowed him to introduce his approach to Mormon literature there. It gives him a chance to get back to what he sees as his role, that of a "cultural critic." [Mormon scriptures almost universally] "tell the story of the people of God at war with God, and God criticizing them for failing to live up to what he's told them," he said. "If we followed that model, we would all do cultural criticism." The college named England its writer in residence, and allowed him to launch a Mormon cultural studies program, called the Center for the Study of Mormon Culture, as part of the college's plans for a religious studies program. The program was launched with a day-long conference on Mormonism in March 2000. England was grateful to UVSC for the opportunity it gave him. "The thing I love about UVSC is they're genuinely interested in LDS literature. The president is not a Mormon, yet he has encouraged me to be a resource. And many non-LDS faculty members have come to me looking for ways to connect with their LDS students." And friends and colleagues saw the program as a way of honoring England. Retired BYU professor William A. Wilson said "Gene has always worked strongly for the good of the church. That's why what has happened to him is so tragic." Another retired BYU professor, Marden Clark, said that "Under the restless spirit of Gene England is a profound and abiding faith in that Christ and, strangely, in a kind of cosmic justice that will finally lead us to be reconciled with him." Wilson adds, [England's] "finest sermon is his own life, where in spite of obstacles, criticisms and downright cruelty, he has never lost the faith." But before he could further develop his last effort for the study of Mormonism, England suffered a debilitating case of brain cancer. After weeks of blinding headaches and general physical and emotional decline, England's symptoms became so acute that he collapsed and was taken to the hospital, where two golf-ball sized cysts and a portion of a tumor were removed from the right-front lobe of his brain. He was never able to fully recover from the cancer, however. It isn't yet clear how enduring Eugene England's legacy will be, but the long history of the institutions he helped found and supported, Dialogue, the Association for Mormon Letters, Sunstone, and most recently, UVSC's Center for the Study of Mormon Culture, implies that his legacy will last a long time. It sometimes seems that everything of value in Mormon intellectual and literary endeavors is somehow connected to him. Sources: The Battle for England: LDS writer's journey traces his struggle between church and cultural criticism http://www.mormonstoday.com/000130/A2England01.shtml Mormon Writer and Academic Eugene England has Surgery for Brain Tumor http://www.mormonstoday.com/010223/A2EEngland01.shtml UVSC To Study Mormons; College to pioneer LDS cultural program http://www.mormonstoday.com/000319/N1UVSCMormonProg01.shtml UVSC Says LDS Studies Benefit Utah http://www.mormonstoday.com/000806/D4UVSCMormonStudies01.shtml Dialogue Starts Website, Resumes Publication http://www.mormonstoday.com/000416/A4Dialogue01.shtml See also: Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought http://www.dialoguejournal.com/ Sunstone http://www.sunstoneonline.com/ Association for Mormon Letters http://www.xmission.com/~aml/ >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rwilliams Subject: [AML] Question for Levi Peterson Date: 26 Aug 2001 14:23:15 -0600 Levi, I was touched by your comments at Eugene England's memorial service, and I wondered if you would mind sharing them with the list here? --John. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: [AML] Fw: MN Books in the News: Kent Larsen 23Aug01 A6 Date: 25 Aug 2001 09:36:43 -0400 Books in the News: 1. Play Review: Mysterious Ways Mysterious Ways by Matt Toronto unpublished Mysterious Ways AML-List Rewiew 14Aug01 A6 http://www.xmission.com/~aml/reviews/b/B200158.html Reviewed by: Tom Johnson 2. Book Review: Out Of Palmyra: AML-List Rewiew 22Aug01 A6 Out Of Palmyra -- A Convert Looks at the Prophetic Calling of Joseph Smith by George W. Givens Palmyra Street Publishers, 2000 Out Of Palmyra AML-List Rewiew 22Aug01 A6 http://www.xmission.com/~aml/reviews/b/B200159.html Reviewed by: Jeff Needle 3. Book Review: The Miracle Life of Edgar Mint More about "The Miracle Life of Edgar Mint" by Brady Udall at Amazon.com Survival without a tribe Bergen co NJ Record 15Aug01 A6 http://www.bergen.com:80/bookclub/lc15200108151.htm By Laurence Chollet Staff Writer 4. Book Review: The Miracle Life of Edgar Mint Home Alone Los Angeles Times 12Aug01 A6 http://www.calendarlive.com/top/1,1419,L-LATimes-Home-X!ArticleDetail-40422, 00.html By Zachary Karabell >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: [AML] Re: Spiritual Pornography Date: 27 Aug 2001 07:31:05 -0600 On the subject of tacky Ensign cover photos: There's another approach that we can take to the problem of tacky LDS art, = one which I recommend highly. We can find it funny. I saw the cover photo. I subscribe to the Ensign, on the off-chance that = someone in the family might want to read it sometime, and I sometimes skim = it to see if there's anything interesting in there, and since there = usually isn't, I leave it at that. But some expressions of Mormon culture = are simply funny. Why not laugh (ruefully, perhaps, since we're in that = culture too)? I mean, what good does it do to get all offended? Just = raises the ol' blood pressure.=20 Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: [AML] Fw: MN LDS Booksellers Meet for 20th Time: Kent Larsen 24Aug01 B4 Date: 25 Aug 2001 09:35:44 -0400 LDS Booksellers Meet for 20th Time SANDY, UTAH -- Celebrating their 20th anniversary, the LDS Booksellers Association met last week in Sandy's South Towne Exposition Center in a convention that featured goods and services from more than 120 vendors of LDS products. The convention also featured the association's annual LDSBA University Program, which for the first time awarded diplomas to those that completed its requirements, and an ending concert featuring musicians from LDS recording label Heartrise. The annual convention is meant for owners and employees of member bookstores, who see and place orders from wholesale members for products to sell in their stores. But although the public can't see the products at the convention, those products are many times available immediately after the convention at member bookstores. In past years the convention has been hobbled by a lack of affordable space in Salt Lake City-area convention facilities and had to restrict the number of booths available to vendors. But this year with the move to the new South Towne Exposition Center, the limit on the booths has been lifted, and many vendors took multiple spaces for their booths. However, in spite of the additional space, some vendors claimed that fewer bookstores were visiting their booths compared with last year. The LDSBA University Program meanwhile gave out more than 60 certificates to those who had completed the requirements for four different certificates. Booksellers were awarded certificates as LDS Store Professionals (LSP) and Master LDS Store Professionals (MLSP) while vendors received corresponding certificates, LVP and MLVP. Meanwhile, several new products caught the attention of booksellers. With the continuing success of Richard Dutcher's films, "God's Army" and "Brigham City," his production company has licensed a series of books based on the first film. The first of the books, a novelization of the movie, is being written by Geoffrey Card, son of well-known LDS science fiction author Orson Scott Card. Also on the way are books about two of the film's main characters, "Sister Fronk's Story" and "Elder Dalton's Story." But the most inventive new product had to be "Mormon-opoly," a take-off on the popular Monopoly board game complete with tokens made of familiar Mormon symbols and properties on which players construct chapels and stake centers. Source: LDS Booksellers Association Convention >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Reader's Digest Articles Date: 24 Aug 2001 23:42:57 -0600 Christopher Bigelow wrote: > > While I was at the Ensign, the two magazines held in most respect by the staff and the ones they wanted to emulate most were Reader's Digest and Nat'l Geographic. Then where are all the nude pictures of brown-skinned natives? Marty - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Fw: MN News Briefs: Singles Film Date: 24 Aug 2001 23:51:26 -0600 "Debra L. Brown" wrote: > "We want 'The Singles Ward' to be a classic film that > every single adult wants to have in their film library," said Moyer. > "We're approaching our religion with the utmost reverence, but we're > also shining a pretty hot light on our culture." These are some interesting characteristics for a movie. I can't wait to see this one and find out how they synthesized all this into the same movie. D. Michael Martindale - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paris ANDERSON" Subject: Re: [AML] Dogs and Cats Date: 25 Aug 2001 08:39:08 -0600 Finally, the voice of reason! I think I would rather have the company of a golden retriever or a boston terrier or an english bulldog (named Winston, of course) than even shake hands with one of those infidels who don't like dogs. Paris Anderson > Craig responds: > > Woof Woof, ssssllllrrrrppppp! > > Heaven will not be heaven if I cannot have a good nuzzle from my fine > four legged friends. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "J. Scott Bronson" Subject: Re: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 27 Aug 2001 08:49:31 -0600 On Wed, 22 Aug 2001 09:17:22 -0600 "Eric R. Samuelsen" writes: [which I have edited a bit] > I attended two sessions at Sunstone, one which I found amazingly > provocative. It was by Gary Stewart, a fine playwright and > screenwriter. Gary talked about how difficult it > was for him to write his Joseph Smith play, finally concluding that, > for him, the task was an impossible one. > The more I think about it, the more I think Gary's right. > I wonder if it's even possible to really communicate who Joseph > Smith was dramatically. I can't help but think that any attempt > will prove to me so reductive it bear only the most tangential > relationship to its subject. And yet we keep trying, don't we? > It's an itch we have to scratch. But we can never seem to scratch > it satisfactorily. At least one reason for continuing to try is the charge we were given by a prophet: For years I have been waiting for someone to do justice in recording in song and story and painting and sculpture the Restoration, the reestablishment of the kingdom of God on the earth, the struggles and frustrations; the apostasies and inner revolutions and counter- revolutions of those first decades; of the exodus; of the counter-reactions; of the transitions; of the persecution days, of the miracle man, Joseph Smith Spencer W. Kimball, "The Gospel Vision of the Arts," _Ensign_ (July 1977), p. 5 Perhaps part of the problem is that too many artists are shying away from the struggles and frustrations; the apostasies and inner revolutions and counter-revolutions; the counter reactions and the transitions -- in short -- all the dynamic and provocative conflicts that were associated with the work of the man Joseph Smith. My first semester at BYU (Fall 1982) I was in four plays -- three of them original scripts. "Journey to Golgotha" by Thomas F. Rogers, "The Guest House" by I-can't-remember and "Digger" by Rob Lauer. "Digger" is a play about Joseph Smith. Specifically, it is about that period when he was a "money digger" for Josiah Stowell; when he was educated by, and fell in love with Emma Hale. Now, that was a long time ago, but, here is what I remember about that production: I had fun. I made some new friends. Joseph Smith was played (quite nicely) by Alan Stark. He is a friend to this day. I remember after one particularly intense rehearsal in room D-341, the two of us sat on a block completely worn and frazzled. Alan said, "Let's go get drunk." Well, even if he was serious, I wasn't up to that. We went to Heap's Brick Oven and each polished off a large pizza and a pitcher of apple beer. That's the closest I've ever come to getting drunk. Emma Hale was played (brilliantly, like everything she played) by Paula Miller Eckern. I played her dad, Isaac Hale. I believe it was opening night when I had actual food for the first scene instead of a bowl full of air. It was cold stew from a can. Paula handed it to me expecting me to wolf it down as I had been pretending to do for several weeks. But I stared at the bowl and started picking out the potatoes with my fingers and eating them as I delivered my lines. I don't know if it was Paula, or Paula-as-Emma who was disgusted by my bohemian behavior. Regardless, she grabbed a piece of muslin that had been pretending to be a napkin and shoved it in my face. In successive performances the stew was moderately warm and nearly palatable. Mark Gollaher played The-Bad-Guy. Sorry, can't remember the character's name. I also can't remember, or speak to the quality of his performance, but, knowing Mark (also still a friend), it was quite fine. My own performance was serviceable at best. At this early stage in my career my most endearing quality as an actor was my naturalness. I was quite relaxed on stage. Still, I wasn't relaxed enough to be able to pull up all the emotions I needed to play the character. I couldn't give the final scene the juice it needed. Instead of weeping as my daughter ran off with the money digger, I managed a forlorn gaze into the distance. Not quite what Rob was looking for, I'm sure. I won't comment on the merits of the script because, frankly, I was a pretty stupid thespian then, and I haven't read the play in all these intervening years. All I know is that I liked it then. I enjoyed working on the play with the people involved. I think it may, in fact, be time for a revival. It's possible that Rob may want another shot at the script. I know I'd like another shot at Isaac Hale. And I think the audience should have another shot at the struggles and frustrations ... J. Scott Bronson -- Member of Playwrights Circle "The sun, with all those planets revolving around it and dependent upon it, can still ripen a bunch of grapes as if it had nothing else in the universe to do." Galileo - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kent S. Larsen II" Subject: [AML] Eugene England Memorial Date: 27 Aug 2001 13:00:39 -0400 If anyone on aml attended the memorial, I would really love to see a report, especially if I can get permission to use it on Mormon News. Thanks Kent Larsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] _Testaments_ Date: 27 Aug 2001 11:26:44 -0600 Christopher Bigelow wrote: > They > should have "I Am Jane" there and stuff like that, but my hopes are not > high. > I Am Jane would suck in that venue. First of all, it's not a theatre by any stretch of the definition. It's an auditorium. I Am Jane needs a real theatre (and much smaller) to rise to its dramatic potential. Thom Duncan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MGA Subject: Re: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 27 Aug 2001 11:25:02 -0600 In 1982 I wrote the play DIGGER which dealt with the courtship of Joseph and Emma, as well as Joseph's involvement in money-digging. It also presented Joseph's first account of his first vision--which mentioned the appearance of only one personage: "the Lord." It won BYU's Mayhew Award for Drama that year and was praised by BYU theatre faculty. However, there was a great deal on concern that it would offend or confuse too many members, so, contrary to what was then standard procedure, it became the first Mayhew winner (or so I was told by a BYU faculty member) NOT to be produced as main stage production. It was produced as a graduate student production at the Y in December 1982 and got rave reviews from audience members as well as a very good notice from SUNSTONE REVIEW. (SUNSTONE later published it in 1988). I don't claim that this was censured. The fact that the Y let it be produced at all showed that the faculty really believed in the play. (And as it was my first play, I don't claim that it was great art--though compared to the standard LDS fare at the time, I think it broke new ground.) I bring this up to make a point. Everyone that I spoke to that saw the production and (with only one exception) everyone that read it told me that they "loved" it. (Their word--not mine.) Many said how moved they were by it. Some said that they felt they were watching the "real Joseph and Emma." (again, this is someone else's words, not mine.) Despite this, the BYU faculty and many of those who read it were concerned that "others" (that infamous word that I've heard for decades from members) might "not get it" or might "have problems with it." In short, I don't believe that members are stupid, unenlightened, etc. But THEY seem to believe that others are, and so they are overly cautious about books, plays, etc. that they think OTHERS might be troubled by. This attitude has a very real effect on the progress of Mormon Art. I loved GOD'S ARMY and so did most people that I know who saw it. HOWEVER, those who very sternly objected to it included an Institute Director at a major University, several Seminary Teachers in my current place of residence, and the wife of the Mission President of one of the largest east coast missions. (She made a point to dissuade people from seeing the film because "real missionaries don't behave that way." This horrified me and several former-missionaries. "It's scary that a mission president's wife has no idea what the young people under her care are going through," said one.) When I mentioned BRIGHAM CITY favorably to one Institute Director, he turned up his nose, said he didn't approve of GOD'S ARMY and "neither did the Brethren." When pressed on what exactly the Brethren said, he shook his head and replied,"I've already said too much." Now my reaction to this is that this Seminary Teacher was either spreading rumors or just--and I do believe this--out and out lying. (I'm sorry if that doesn't make me sound very Christ-like, but as the scriptures say "be wise as serpents"--or as the Inspired Version says "wise as servants." I tend to distrust people who throw something out as this Institute Director did, and then back off when challenged.) What bothers me is that people in positions of authority on the local level, in their zeal to "protect" the testimonies of others (as if THEY have anything to do with the existence of those testimonies in the first place), are out there telling people NOT to read certain books or see movies made by devout LDS artists.( Besides Dutcher's WONDERFUL films, Orson Scott Card's SAINTS comes instantly to mind as an example of literature.) Here's my testimony: The Gospel IS true. Joseph was a prophet. The truth--even the "bad" stuff--can only support this. What may have to change is an individual's concept of what exactly a prophet is. Also, I do think what I called the growing encroachment of mainstream Protestantism on LDS though, will make it harder for many in the Church to recognize real Mormon Art (art with a world view and sense of values that is grounded in the unique theology of the Gospel.) At the moment, popular LDS art is barely discernable from mainstream "Christian" or "Gospel" art. More and more, LDS imagery is looking like that of Evangelical Christianity. And we shouldn't ever underestimate the influence of imagery on the modern mind. We live in an age when the visual has a great influence that the literary. In short, my problem is with what I know is a reality: a majority of active members seem to be concerned about reading or seeing something that hasn't been "approved by the Brethren." (As if the Brethren can--or even want to--be in the business of "approving" art. [Rob Lauer] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MGA Subject: Re: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 27 Aug 2001 11:34:22 -0600 Marty wrote that he disagreed with my statement that the great novels about Joseph Smith will be written by non-members. I'm glad that he is plugging ahead on his work and ignoring such sentiments completely. Prove me wrong--PLEASE! Just so you know, I too am working on a novel--not about Joseph but about polygamy, the Church and the Federal Government in the 1880's. Already a mission president's wife, without even reading any of it or knowing anything about it, has asked me to stop working on it because "the world isn't ready for Polygamy." Excuse me, but as a believing Latter-day Saint I had to reply, "Didn't THE LORD think the world was ready for polygamy over 150 years ago?" I veer off track. My point is that I too am hard at work trying to prove myself wrong about Mormon's writing great novels inspired by their history. ROB LAUER - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: [AML] Fw: MN LDSMusicians.com Releases Second Music CD: LDSMusicians.com= Date: 27 Aug 2001 13:59:27 -0400 LDSMusicians.com Releases Second Music CD LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA -- LDSMusicians.com, an Internet site for independent LDS Musicians to collaborate, vent their ideas, successes and failures, releases its second collections CD. The CD, titled LDStyles 2 features a variety of lesser known, but rather accomplished artists including, Jeff Goldman, Wayne Burton, Dana Bishop Sanders, Matt Armstrong, Michele Baer, Mike Mercado, W. Alex. Mackey, III, Tucker. M. Maxfield, FiddleSticks, Michael DeShazer, David Edwards, Jim Anderson, Janet Clayton Sloan, LaDena & Rene=EDe, Michael Priddis, Fast Sundae, and Eric Endres. Musicians belonging to LDSMusicians.com submitted various songs over the course of several months. Seventeen songs were selected and made it onto the final album. LDStyles 2 represents almost every style of music ranging from a piano arrangement of Teach Me to Walk in the Light, by Alex. Mackey to the upbeat Rescue Me by Jeff Goldman to the hippie sounding Burden of Babylon by Fast Sundae. The CD will be released on Saturday, September 1st, 2001 at a release party/concert in American Fork, Utah. The concert will feature those on the CD and is open to the public. LDStyles 2 was produced by Mackey and released under the LDSMusicians.com and Oh, Rio! Productions labels. The album was mastered by Nancy Matter at Moonlight Mastering, Burbank, CA in August of 2001. LDStyles 2 will be available at LDSMusicians.com or via email at OhRio@email.com. LDStyles 2 will be in LDS bookstore stores over the course of the next few months. Several of the songs on the album can be heard directly through the various artists=ED sites such as www.mp3.com/alexmackey or on the Internet radio station http://www.KZOIN.com LDS Musician, Brad Thompson, started the site in September of 1999 so that he could talk to other LDS Musicians. The site currently has over 140 members and continues to grow daily with musicians as far away as Sweden, England and Australia. For more information about the September 1st concert or the LDStyles 2 CD please visit http://www.ldsmusicians.com or contact Alex. Mackey directly at alexmackey@email.com. ### >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: [AML] Fw: MN Bachman Credits Church with Keeping Him Alive: Montreal Canada Gazette Date: 27 Aug 2001 14:00:23 -0400 Bachman Credits Church with Keeping Him Alive MONTREAL, CANADA -- The Guess Who has just completed a 29 Canadian reunion tour and they are now ready to hit the United States and eight more Canadian venues. To the surprise of those who mock aging rockers reuniting for nostalgia tours, the shows were a hit with both fans and critics. Randy Bachman, the 57-year-old guitarist, said, "This tour is going to be even better than last year's. We've added more hits." The set list, which includes four songs by his post-Guess Who band, Bachman-Turner Overdrive. "People asked us why we didn't do Shakin' All Over (the Guess Who's first hit, in 1965), so we're opening with Shakin' All Over, then going right into Hand Me Down World and These Eyes, and then You Ain't Seen Nothin' Yet. Bam! 1-2-3-4! You got it! Then we do Glamour Boy, Lookin' Out For No. 1, No Sugar Tonight ..." The American Woman tour is named after the group's most well-known hit which made a recent come-back when it was used in two recent movies. Lenny Kravitz recorded a version for Austin Powers: the Spy Who Shagged Me and the song also appeared in the Oscar-winning movie American Beauty. Bachman continues to work on his skills by watching instructional videos. "It's exercise for the brain and fingers," he explained. And he credits country axemeister Chet Atkins, jazz guitarist Lenny Breau, and British instrumentalist Hank B. Marvin of The Shadows with influencing his music. "I am who I am because of Hank and The Shadows," Bachman said. Bachman also credits his membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for keeping him alive all these years, while "people my own age and younger are passing away from smoking and other things. I'm fortunate that I had these rules to live by." Source: Bachman still in overdrive Montreal Canada Gazette 25Aug01 A2 >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Irreantum fiction contest winners Date: 27 Aug 2001 13:04:13 -0600 At 08:54 AM 8/24/01 -0700, you wrote: >Is he still a friend? >:) Well, you have to give a certain amount of slack to non-writers. . . . barbara hume - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 27 Aug 2001 11:59:29 -0600 Here are some of the audience problems, as I see them. Let's suppose you choose to dramatize Joseph and polygamy. Now, you could = show Joseph marrying old widows, providing for them, suggesting that = that's all plural marriage was. But that wouldn't work, because that's = not what happened. Or you could eliminate plural marriage entirely. It = would ignore an imporant historical fact, but you need to be selective = anyway, so okay, we cut that out. Except it's reductive, and besides, = suddenly June 1844 doesn't make sense anymore. (I mean, why did he = destroy the Expositor?) So you could show Joseph routinely sneaking = around at night in Nauvoo to visit his young and attractive other wives, a = practice Emma, uh, disapproved of. That's all true, so there you go, = that's our story. And suddenly, Joseph is a serial adulterer, and that's = also reductive and untrue. But I maintain that there's absolutely no way = on earth to show Joseph in plural marriage as it plural marriage was = understood and taught in the nineteenth century. "It's this tremendous = sacrifice I have to make." Yeah, cry me a river. Or we could have a = scene where Joseph breaks down and cries, and talks to Emma about how = sorry he is, and he'll never do it again. You could make him seriously = repentant. And that also isn't true; that turns out to be reductive and = false, as opposed to reductive but kinda true. This is just one issue, plural marriage, bou can't leave it in and you = can't cut it out. A biographer can give a lot more context, and a lot = more detail, and the result might be Donna Hill's excellent biography of = Joseph, which is meticulous and careful and well written, and, from my = perspective, pretty seriously reductive. She gives lots of detail, and = the details don't add up to a coherent whole. Drama and literature can = sometimes do a better job with character than biography or history can. = But in this case, the divide is just too huge. =20 I think our best hope is to show Joseph through the eyes of other people. = James Arrington's play does a nice job of this. Like I say, I want to = show Joseph through Hyrum's eyes. But I think the subject is all but = impossible. We can't help but reduce him. Eric Samuelsen =20 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Krista Halverson Subject: [AML] re: Eugene England Date: 27 Aug 2001 12:50:31 -0700 (PDT) This post is without a specific intention, other than to honor a teacher and mentor I loved. Let me just add my tribute to the list that will continue to grow, no doubt. His bibliography is long, but the influence of his life will outdo even that, I suspect. As a fairly absent-minded personality, I nevertheless keep a careful account of my debts. And now I find myself owing something I thought I'd have time to repay. HOW I expected to repay Eugene England for his influence on my education, literary direction, or happiness, is a little vague. A few times I started letters of thanks, but never found adequate words. He was a person of action and the letter didn't seem like enough. Maybe I thought that someday, using what he'd taught me (and a lot more skill and wisdom than I have now) I'd be able to in some way contribute to his efforts--to show him how much I believed in his vision for our people. Eugene England extended credit to hundreds like me and he did expect something in return, I think. There is a debt outstanding. Since hearing of his first illness I started to panic, wondering what we (what I) would do without the man who did the work of 50. Then I remember hearing Brother England tell a student in his office, 'Well, I think you're a good writer. What do you need me for?' Well, we do need him. Thankfully he has left us with a collection of models from his own voice that can't be exhausted. The unease I still feel is partially because he has gone before I could give back any of what I took. Maybe the best way to know what to do now, when I feel lost (and imagine others share the feeling) is to consider what he asked of his students. He wanted an thoughtful, expansive literature from us, and for us to examine our culture with kindness and without fear. He wanted us to know how to believe, how to ask, and how to love. It's not easy to say goodbye, even for a season. And how to offer my thanks and sorrow to the England family for their generosity and their loss--I don't know how to do that either. His essays, and then his office when I moved to Utah, were places I could go to hear words that reaffirmed my faith and committed me to learning more about my religion and my people. This email begins my tribute to Brother England, who was, for me, the father of Mormon literature. Krista Halverson __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paris ANDERSON" Subject: [AML] speaking of Homer Date: 27 Aug 2001 13:56:15 -0600 My name is Paris, and my wife's name is Helen. Over the years there = have been many people (most of them Mormons) who have caught the = connection between those names. Helen and I eloped in a black VW Van = (the closest thing I could get to a black ship), and when we returned = from Vegas, my parents had a dinner in our honor. There was an Illyid = motif to the decorations. Most people understood what was meant by the = golden apple Helen carried around. I first read Homer in my Junior High English textbook. I don't think = it's possible to go to school, or listen to Cream, and not get an = introduction to Homer. Whoever said Mormons don't read Homer sounds = really, really pretentious and doesn't seem to think about what he is = saying. I'll bet his eyes were brown . . . - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Needle" Subject: Re: [AML] George W. GIVENS, _Out Of Palmyra_ (Review) Date: 27 Aug 2001 14:43:20 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- > You've touched upon a point of Givens' argument that is weak, imo. I'm > only going on Jeff Needle's review, not having read the book, but it > appears to me that Givens is taking the position that there are only two > ways to explain Joseph Smith: Prophet or Fraud (with fraud, implying a > willful attempt to deceive). This is a specious argument because it > simplfies what I believe is a complex situation and it insults followers > of other "prophets" (despite Given's quote to the contrary). > He skirts the issue that you raise, only hinting at it in vague statements. He frequently juxtaposes the the idea of "fraud" against how Joseph did it, and allows for no other alternatives. [Jeff Needle] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lynette Jones Subject: RE: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 27 Aug 2001 16:13:53 -0600 H mm, a lot of criticism. I think we can do better than this. At 03:05 PM 8/23/01 -0600, you wrote: >---Original Message From: Eric R. Samuelsen > > The more I think about it, the more I think Gary's right. We > > could write about how someone else viewed Joseph--I've always > > wanted to tell Joseph's story from Hyrum's perspective. > > (James Arrington has a wonderful play that takes a kind of > > Rashomon approach to Joseph.) We could take the > > semi-documentary approach the Church is leaning towards in > > recent films, where you spend the whole film quoting old > > journals. (I like that approach a lot, and think it's quite > > effective.) We could take what Tim Slover has suggested: an > > ecstatic approach, quite stylized, in which we celebrate > > Joseph's life as the Medieval mystery plays did the life of > > Christ, with an emphasis on doctrine. (I'd like to try that > > one too.) > > > > But I wonder if it's even possible to really communicate who > > Joseph Smith was dramatically. I can't help but think that > > any attempt will prove to me so reductive it bear only the > > most tangential relationship to its subject. And yet we keep > > trying, don't we? It's an itch we have to scratch. But we > > can never seem to scratch it satisfactorily. > >I wonder if we wouldn't have the same problem writing about Christ if we >had as much source material as we do for Joseph Smith. It seems to me that we have so much more information about the Character of Jesus Christ than we do Joseph Smith! :) Every prophet who has written has added their bit of information. But the person who gave us the greatest clues on the character of both Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith is Isaiah. Even before the Greeks, Isaiah understood the four parts to character. (Isaiah 11:2) This gives us a clue that this was not new knowledge, but knowledge handed down through the generations from the beginning of time. I wonder if Isaiah would not have had access to the greatest collection of ancient records available in his time, seeing the wealth and age of the kingdom of Israel at the time and the inherent practice of gathering knowledge which is a sign of the true believers, if only... >Now, I hesitate >to even say that because it feeds into the hands of people who claim we >worship Joseph on the same level as Jesus--which we just don't. But I >don't think that comparison is necessarily unwarranted. What we know >about Christ is intriguing enough, even realizing that we know really >very little. All the same problems exist, even the warts-showing one. >Not that Jesus had warts, but there's quite a bit there that people like >to gloss over in their own way (like Joseph Smith's polygamy). Since >our main source for stories of Jesus are a) faithful and b) doctrine >centered, we tend to miss those things that are only hinted at which >could make him our Merry Savior and as complex a character as Joseph is. By using very simple rules of psychology, they need not seem so complex. Strip it down to the bare facts. Understand the personality of the writer and then you will see the main character a little more clearly. >I guess what I'm saying is that we'd have a tough time writing stories >of Jesus if we had the same depth of source material. Lacking that >depth, we can fill in the blanks as we see fit. We can have "Stone >Tables", "Testaments", "The Last Temptation", even "Life of Bryan" and >not worry about contradicting contemporary accounts (or leaving things >out due to some imagined bias). I wonder if we couldn't do with Joseph >what seems to be an interesting trend with Jesus--have him show up in a >modern context. What would a "Cowboy Joseph" look like? Again, you >have to make sure that we aren't substituting Joseph for Jesus in a >faith/worship way, but doing so in a literary way might be practicable. >The benefits of that is that all the problems you mentioned turn into >back story, and are thus easier to cut or emphasize as needed by the >story. Plus, it's an intriguing thought: What *would* Joseph do if he >were thrust into our modern world? I expect there'd be some interesting >fireworks... > >Jacob Proffitt Anything is possible if it serves you purpose. And of course, that is the key. LCJ [Lynette Jones] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Paynecabin@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] _Testaments_ Date: 27 Aug 2001 18:25:02 EDT In a message dated 8/27/01 9:04:30 AM, Chris.Bigelow@UnicityNetwork.com writes: << And I noticed a missed dramatic opportunity that was another instance of the movie's narrative limitations--after the darkness, someone mentions they couldn't light a fire because the vapor was so thick. Why not show that? >> Um, because it's film? Marvin Payne - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: katie@aros.net Subject: RE: [AML] Writing About "Good" Mormons Date: 27 Aug 2001 16:35:10 -0600 (MDT) Quoting Ronn Blankenship : > At 07:21 PM 8/21/01, you wrote: > >I didn't see the situation there very plausible, either. Maybe more > >plausible > >than some of those early Weyland pieces, but at the end the guy has a > > >dream and > >he realizes that he really wants to get baptized and marry this girl > and > >raise > >lots of screaming kids and be really poor, instead of keeping his > current > >lifestyle and his share in the lucrative family wine business. > > > >Must've been some dream. > > > >--Katie Parker > > > > Had he been sampling the family wares? > > ;-) > > > > --Ronn! :) Actually he was hiding in France and was drunk when the missionaries tracted him out... I can't remember whether the dream came before or after (or during?) that part, but it was kind of amusing. Maybe that explains why he converted :) --Katie Parker - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Katrina Duvalois" Subject: RE: [AML] Used LDS Books for Sale? Date: 27 Aug 2001 17:12:56 -0700 I would really like to participate in something like this. Especially if we could _swap_ titles! I have been searching for _House Without Walls_ by Margaret Young but haven't had a lot of luck. Living in CA our thrift stores don't have much LDS Fiction. I have found some but it's mostly Jack Weyland (not that there's anything wrong with that), or probably something _I_ donated! Katrina Duvalois - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tom Johnson" Subject: [AML] re: Joseph Smith Story Date: 27 Aug 2001 22:44:45 -0400 hi, I was reading last night orwell's essay "Decline of the English Murder" and I came across a few lines about JS as one of the prime murderers in history--thought it was intriguing, as I'd never heard that categorization before. "Our great priod in murder, our Elizabethan period, so to speak, seems to have been between roughly 1850 and 1925, and the murderers whose reputation has stood the test of time are the following: Dr Palmer of Rugely, Jack the Ripper, Neill Cream, Mrs Maybrick, Dr Crippen, Seddon, Joseph Smith, Armstrong, and Bywaters and Thompson. . . . .Providence could be clearly seen, or one of those episodes that no novelist would dare to make up, such as Crippen's flight across the ATlantic with his mistress dressed as a boy, or Joseph Smith playing 'Nearer, my God, to Thee' on the harmonium while one of his wives was drowning in the next room. The background of all these creimes, except Neilll Craem's,w as essentially domestic; of twelve victims, seven were either wife or husband of the murderer." Did I miss out on something? Does anyone know where I can find the full relation of the harmonium incident? Tom Or let my Lamp at midnight hour, Be seen in some high lonely Tower, Where I may oft out-watch the Bear --Milton - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Preston" Subject: [AML] Susan Evans McCloud Movie Date: 28 Aug 2001 00:57:13 -0500 I found this interesting, and thought AML might appreciate it: The website for Stone Forest, an Orem-based film production company, lists Susan Evans McCloud as president and a screenwriter. A couple of the company's completed projects list her as the screenwriter. AML members will be probably most familiar with McCloud as one of the most popular authors of LDS literature. She's a staple in LDS bookstores with her novels, short stories and non-fiction. I was wondering when already established LDS writers would start seeing their works turned to film in the post-Dutcher era. Most LDS-oriented films currently in production are original screenplays. McCloud's "Black Stars Over Mexico" appears to be well into the pre-production stage. It is about the Mexican Colonies in the early years of the 1900s. It joins Weyland's _Charly_ as an existing LDS novel (not an original screenplay) about to go before cameras. And, of course, Mitch Davis's "The Other Side of Heaven" is based on Elder Groberg's _In the Eye of the Storm_, although that book is memoirs, not a novel, and that film is already in the can, release pending. Other LDS authors whose books have been made into films (mostly made-for-television films) include: Raymond F. Jones, James C. Christensen, Zenna Henderson, Anne Perry, Richard Paul Evans, Richard M. Siddoway, Hartt Wixom, Douglas Thayer, Herbert Harker, Blaine Yorgason and Brent Yorgason, Lael J. Littke and Judith Freeman. But none of these films have been made specifically for LDS audiences however. Although McCloud's book _Black Stars Over Mexico_ is published by Granite Publishing & Distribution and sold at LDS bookstores, including Deseret Book, the film looks like it will be marketed to a general television audience. Preston Hunter www.adherents.com Dallas, Texas >From the Stone Forest production company website: http://www.stoneforest.tv/movies.html Susan Evans McCloud and Gilbert Howe are proud to announce a new movie in pre-production. This movie being made for TV, as a movie of the week, will be shot on location in Utah and Arizona. The movie working title is Black Stars Over Mexico, based on a true story that takes place in the early 1900's. The book was written by Susan Evans McCloud. She interviewed those who had lived in the Mexican Colonies as children and took their stories and compiled them into this book. The picture will be directed by Gilbert Howe. More details will be coming soon. We have communicated with ICE for distribution. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Cliches in Science Fiction Date: 28 Aug 2001 01:00:46 -0600 Annette Lyon wrote: > I laughed heartily--and I'm a SF fan. I'm surprised to hear that Star Trek > has a cliche wall, because they keep using cliches, even recycling Next > Generation plots into Voyager. I'll vouch for the existence of the cliche board, because I heard it directly from the mouth of a prominent staff member on Star Trek. As for the intelligence of the minds using the board, I have no comment. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "althlevip" Subject: [AML] Re: Eugene England (was: Question for Levi Peterson) Date: 28 Aug 2001 06:04:52 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 1:23 PM Levi, I was touched by your comments at Eugene England's memorial service, and I wondered if you would mind sharing them with the list here? --John. Remarks at Memorial Service for Eugene England Provo, Utah. August 25, 2001. Levi S. Peterson I feel greatly honored to be asked to speak at this memorial service. I hope I can add a dimension to our mutual recognition of Gene's virtues and qualities. I suppose that Charlotte and the children discerned a good many foibles in Gene. Perhaps he habitually failed to put down the toilet seat after relieving himself, or perhaps he failed to rinse his dirty dishes and stack them in the dishwasher as agreed upon in family council. But such foibles were invisible to me. In my presence Gene projected an aura of amiability, gentle humor, and benevolence. Benevolence, a desire that good prevail, was rooted deeply within Gene's spirit. It was, in fact, the essence of his spirituality. I was aware of Gene as a co-founder of Dialogue before I met him personally. My admiration for that journal, which continues unabated to the latest moment, predisposed me to admire him. I first met Gene personally when he left St. Olaf's College and returned to Utah. About 1978, he and I became colleagues on the board of the Association for Mormon Letters. During the 1980s, he published affirmative interpretations of some of my fiction. I could wish that every author had an interpreter and critic like Gene. Throughout the later 1980s and well into the 1990s, Gene invited me about once a year to speak to his Mormon literature class at BYU. Almost invariably some earnest student would inquire why I felt the need in my fiction to treat sex frankly and add vulgarities to the dialogue of my characters. I'm not sure I had a satisfactory answer. Nonetheless, a year later Gene would invite me to return. My affection for Gene-and for Charlotte too-was deepened when, during the early 1990s, they joined a writing group to which Althea and I belonged. The group included four other couples over an eighteen year period. We met once a month for dinner at the home of the writer whose turn it was to have previously mailed a manuscript for our critique. Althea and I regarded all the couples as dear and intimate friends with whom we felt utterly comfortable. It was only after Gene and Charlotte joined this writing group that I became aware that in their youth they had wed and forthwith departed on a mission to Samoa. I am not sure that Gene, comforted for months by the presence of his wife, was properly tested by his mission. Thanks to my association with Gene and Charolette, I gradually came to know their children as well, who, like Gene and Charlotte, are warm, intense, and creative personalities, deeply religious yet tolerant of the tensions between faith and reason. Among many lessons close association with Gene has taught me is the ability to embrace men whom I love. Upon arriving at our house for dinner and an evening of discussion, Gene approached me with open arms and gave me a warm hug. I was raised to be reticent about such demonstrations between men. Tutored by Gene and others in our writing group, I overcame that reticence. I will call Gene a liberal Mormon. I consider myself a liberal Mormon too. However, whereas I am a liberal jack Mormon, Gene was a liberal good Mormon. In common Mormon parlance, a good Mormon is one who goes to church, pays tithing, keeps the Word of Wisdom, performs church assignments, attends the temple. Gene was a Mormon of that sort. But as I say, he was also a liberal Mormon. A liberal is often defined as a person who desires change within an organization. I for one am the sort of liberal who would propose changes within the church in the name of civilization, civilization implying a dynamic process by which one culture adopts a desirable improvement or change for the better from another. Obviously, the Mormon church is a part of this large dynamic process, its members commingling with the members of sister cultures on a daily basis, influencing and being influenced by them. In my view, the person within the church best suited to propose desirable change is the faithful Mormon liberal, who by virtue of wide reading and a curious, rational mind is instinctively attracted to the expanding edge of civilization, where the old is constantly transformed into the new in science, art, morality, and dozens of other categories. To my thinking, this was exactly the role that Gene fulfilled. However, I am aware that Gene would not have explained his proposals for change within the church in terms of an advancing world civilization. He would have explained them in terms of leading a Christ-like life. Every faithful Mormon desires to be Christ-like, and every faithful Mormon will urge a more Christ-like life upon fellow church members. What distinguished Gene's concept of a Christ-like life was that it was not punctilious. It was not concerned with jots and tittles, with dotting your i's and crossing your t's. It was concerned with the spirit not the letter of the law. It did not assume you can quantify righteousness. I would like to read a paragraph from Gene's introduction to The Best of Lowell L. Bennion: Selected Writings 1928-1988, a book Gene compiled and published in 1988. Besides being a tribute to the spiritual qualities of Lowell Bennion, the paragraph reveals much about Gene's own spiritual qualities. These are Gene's words: I remember a class at the institute in about 1953 on the nature of God. A student asked why, if God is no respecter of persons, as the scriptures and common sense clearly indicate, a difference existed in God's church between black and all others. I immediately answered, as I had been taught all my life, "Well, God is also a God of justice, and since blacks were not valiant in the preexistence, they are cursed with the just consequences." In the discussion following my remark, Brother Bennion-who in my experience never mentioned this issue except when directly questioned-pronounced no answers, quoted no dogma. He simply asked me how I knew blacks had not been valiant. When I had no answer but tradition, he gently suggested that the God revealed in Christ would surely let blacks know what they had done wrong and how they could repent, rather than merely punishing them-and since God had done no such thing, it seemed better to believe that blacks had been, and were, no different spiritually from the rest of us. As I thought about this, my way of thinking about the gospel was changed, and not merely concerning this issue. I came to realize with stunning clarity that many of my beliefs, ones that profoundly affected my relationships to others, were based on flimsy and unexamined evidence and were directly contradictory to great gospel principles like the impartial Fatherhood of God, the universal brotherhood of humankind, and the unconditional atonement, which offered sufficient power to all to repent and be both saved and exalted. (xiv) Gene propagated those "great gospel principles" on many fronts over a long and influential career. I recall the excitement I felt at a regional Sunstone symposium in Seattle in 1989 when Gene boldly asserted that when the Book of Mormon speaks of the brown skin of the Lamanites as a curse from God, it should be interpreted as a statement of racial prejudice on the part of the Nephite prophets who wrote the Book of Mormon. This excited me, as I say, because I believed Gene's interpretation made it easier for a reasonable person to believe in the Book of Mormon. The most important thing about Gene for me was that he made me feel more like a true Mormon. Whereas many readers have felt that the vision of the Cowboy Jesus which occurs to my character Frank Windham in The Backslider is blasphemous, Gene called it "one of the most lovely and believable epiphanies I have encountered in modern fiction" (101) He went on to say in the same review that, while I have often called myself a backslider in public places, my novel suggests that I have, as he put it, "backslid a bit from backsliding" (102). Actually, I have not got over the feeling that I am an irretrievable backslider. Yet I recognize that my association with persons who are both good Mormons and liberal Mormons has made me feel that I am, good or bad, nothing less than a Mormon. Many of them are present in this building today. I admire such persons greatly and believe I do well to add my effort to the cause of making the Mormon church a comfortable home for such worshipers as they. Gene was among the foremost who salvaged me for Mormonism. In his benevolent presence I felt my inadequacies diminished and my qualities enhanced. I have written that I am a Christian, if not by faith, at least by yearning. I have said that my fellow Latter-day Saints often seem so intent upon exaltation, a condition of celestial reward and glory to be earned by earthly valor and vigilance, that they appear to pay only a perfunctory respect to salvation, the gift of eternal life, given to all freely by the atoning death of Christ. As for celestial reward and glory, it would seem that a backslider should expect little. All the more reason for me to rely on the simple promise of eternal life. Still I somehow expect that if, after I have awakened from the darkness of death into the miraculous light of eternal life, I need someone to speak a good word for me, Gene will step forth to do it. I know I can rely on Gene to assert that my soul is more worthy than I ever imagined. Works Cited: England, Eugene. "Beyond 'Jack Fiction': Recent Achievement in the Mormon Novel." BYU Studies. 28.2 (Spring 1988), 97-109. England, Eugene, ed. "Introduction." The Best of Lowell L. Bennion: Selected Writings 1928- 1988. Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1988. Levi Peterson althlevip@msn.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: margaret young Subject: Re: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 28 Aug 2001 09:25:39 -0600 Most--or at least many members consider _No Man Knows My History_ a dangerous book, I think. When, during an Education Week, Gene England mentioned the contribution Faun Brody had made with that book, several attendees complained, and Gene was never again invited to present at Education week. Gene said to me that he should have known better than to say positive things about Brody at a BYU function, and genuinely regretted being removed from the Education Week roster. (Sometime, I will write a much more lenghty tribute to Gene. He has been much on my mind.) I wonder how the reaction to Todd Compton's _In Sacred Loneliness_ has been. I know that Darius Gray and I were cautioned about using _Mormon Enigma_ (about Emma Smith) as a source for our trilogy because of the way some members might react to it. The best book about Joseph Smith, as far as I'm concerned, is Donna Hill's _The First Mormon_. And it's not easy stuff. Stegner's _The Gathering of Zion_ is also an excellent treatment of Mormon history with some attention paid to Joseph and all that led to his martyrdom. That one has been quite well received, I think--though I suspect most members would rather not know about why William Law, one of Joseph's best friends and a member of the 1st presidency, turned against him. There are certainly Sunday School classes where most members are well-informed of Joseph's life "warts and all," but I am always extremely hesitant to bring up the warts in Sunday School, though I don't hesitate in other environments. Sunday school is not the place to get into controversy, and I simply don't do it.. [Margaret Young] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gerald G Enos Subject: Re: [AML] LDS Booksellers Convention Date: 28 Aug 2001 09:44:49 -0600 I have read both the Odyssey and the Illiad and still have my copies on my bookself. I'm not sure if they are condenced versions or not, they are paperbacks that I bought because they were required for a college course I was taking at the time. Konnie Enos ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gerald G Enos Subject: Re: [AML] Cliches in Science Fiction Date: 28 Aug 2001 09:17:48 -0600 Being a Star Trek fan since I was a young girl I can honestly say that they recycle plots from all the show for any subsequent shows. In fact TNG and Voyager followed the same chacterization formula as the original. All three have a strong willed confident captian that is sexually pleasing to aliens that they meet, at least one bridge crew member that is logical and unimotional and a engineer who is extradonarily good at their job. One big difference is that Dr. Crusher is not gruff with some bedside manner problems (of course Dr. Pulaski was some what gruff and she didn't like transporters either). DS-9 was a little more original and didn't have the logical crew member or the gruff doctor but they did resurect some story lines from the previous two shows. Data often got chuckles for saying something that he didn't understand what was funny. Konnie Enos ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tony Markham Subject: Re: [AML] Spiritual Pornography Date: 28 Aug 2001 12:12:22 -0400 "Eric R. Samuelsen" wrote: > On the subject of tacky Ensign cover photos: > > There's another approach that we can take to the problem of tacky LDS art, one which I recommend highly. > > We can find it funny. > > I saw the cover photo. I subscribe to the Ensign, on the off-chance that someone in the family might want to read it sometime, and I sometimes skim it to see if there's anything interesting in there, and since there usually isn't, I leave it at that. But some expressions of Mormon culture are simply funny. Why not laugh (ruefully, perhaps, since we're in that culture too)? I mean, what good does it do to get all offended? Just raises the ol' blood pressure. Which exactly makes the point of my original post. The Ensign purports to address matters essential to our happiness on earth and our salvation in the eternities. We are supposed to laugh at their treatment of these matters? I submit that this is exactly the deleterious effect that pornography seeks to affect on our psyches--to trivialize our profound spiritual moments. And BTW, next time you're in Cooperstown, remember that Delhi is only an hour away. Just because your branch of the family tree and mine separated 150 years ago, is no reason to avoid each other. There are plenty of valid reasons, mind you, but we'll save those for another day. Tony Markham - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] LDS Booksellers Convention Date: 28 Aug 2001 01:19:52 -0600 luannstaheli wrote: > > Not only have I read the Odyssey, but I've read the Illiad as well--and not the > condensed versions. Does watching the movie with Kirk Douglas count? -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cgileadi@emerytelcom.net Subject: Re: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 28 Aug 2001 18:03:01 GMT Rob writes: Here's my testimony: The Gospel IS true. Joseph was a prophet. The truth--even the "bad" stuff--can only support this. What may have to change is an individual's concept of what exactly a prophet is. That has always been an interesting question for me: can we accept a flawed prophet? I think of course we can! History tells us that Joseph's behavior re polygamy would appall us today (taking his servants for wives and sleeping with them under Emma's nose but without telling her). So what? Everybody in mortality is growing, and that includes prophets, you, and me. Because it's hard for many of us to accept flaws, we are handicapped in producing really convincing stories, novels, films. . . .It takes courage to look our flaws in the face and still accept who we are. I think it's also a liberating thing to do. Cathy Wilson This message was sent using Endymion MailMan. http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cgileadi@emerytelcom.net Subject: Re: [AML] Spiritual Pornography Date: 28 Aug 2001 18:12:25 GMT Tony writes: The Ensign purports to address matters essential to our happiness on earth and our salvation in the eternities. We are supposed to laugh at their treatment of these matters? Well. . . we can either laugh or cry. It doesn't do us too much good to get upset, in any case. Think about it--every week we hear people talking seriously about eternal verities in ways that are outrageous. Why not laugh? Doesn't change our conviction about the gospel, and maybe it's kinder to everyone anyhow. :) Cathy This message was sent using Endymion MailMan. http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: RE: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 28 Aug 2001 12:13:55 -0600 ---Original Message From: MGA > In short, I don't believe that members are stupid, > unenlightened, etc. But THEY seem to believe that others are, > and so they are overly cautious about books, plays, etc. that > they think OTHERS might be troubled by. This attitude has a > very real effect on the progress of Mormon Art. That is a *very* interesting take on this issue and I think your strongest point. It pin-points what I was thinking about--that the perception of backlash is untested. > What bothers me is that people in positions of authority on > the local level, in their zeal to "protect" the testimonies > of others (as if THEY have anything to do with the existence > of those testimonies in the first place), are out there > telling people NOT to read certain books or see movies made > by devout LDS artists.( Besides Dutcher's WONDERFUL films, > Orson Scott Card's SAINTS comes instantly to mind as an > example of literature.) > > In short, my problem is with what I know is a reality: a > majority of active members seem to be concerned about reading > or seeing something that hasn't been "approved by the > Brethren." (As if the Brethren can--or even want to--be in > the business of "approving" art. You give anecdotal examples and then leap to "majority". *That's* what I dispute. I don't know many people who *haven't* had contact with nutty members who will exercise what I consider to be priestcraft. But just because the experience of hearing a nut is possibly universal doesn't equate to *nuts* being universal. While I'm at it, I should probably define my use of the term "priestcraft". Priestcraft is a peculiarly LDS sin. The phenomenon involves members assuming more authority than they've been given and buttressing that authority with often vague calls to authority. Priestcraft existed in the days of Joseph Smith and continues today--just because the word has fallen out of favor hasn't reduced the actual instance of it. Others may indulge in vague calls on authority, but LDS members have the added weight of assuming the authority of God. As far as it goes, in my experience, the *majority* of LDS members have had enough experience with priestcraft to automatically discount any reference to what "the brethren" have said--if only because "the brethren" is such a vague term in the first place. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: RE: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 28 Aug 2001 12:20:24 -0600 ---Original Message From: Eric R. Samuelsen [snip] > > This is just one issue, plural marriage, bou can't leave it > in and you can't cut it out. A biographer can give a lot > more context, and a lot more detail, and the result might be > Donna Hill's excellent biography of Joseph, which is > meticulous and careful and well written, and, from my > perspective, pretty seriously reductive. She gives lots of > detail, and the details don't add up to a coherent whole. > Drama and literature can sometimes do a better job with > character than biography or history can. But in this case, > the divide is just too huge. Have you ever read Orson Scott Card's "Saints"? I think it stands as one of the better portrayals of Joseph Smith I've read (far better than the Work and the Glory) and doesn't shy at all from Polygamy. In fact, it's one of the better portrayals of *an* instance of Joseph in polygamy that I've ever read--though it's a fictitious one. Of course, it isn't often from Joseph's viewpoint (though I have to give Card props for putting him as viewpoint at all), so maybe it isn't an example of what you're talking about. Still, it's a decent example to follow as an elegant balance in portraying Joseph Smith. And elegant balance is one of the best compliments I know. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: margaret young Subject: Re: [AML] Used LDS Books for Sale? Date: 28 Aug 2001 12:41:25 -0600 Gee, I happen to have a box full of that particular book in my closet. I'll be in California in October. I'd be glad to bring a copy with me. Katrina Duvalois wrote: > I would really like to participate in something like this. Especially if we > could _swap_ titles! I have been searching for _House Without Walls_ by > Margaret Young but haven't had a lot of luck. Living in CA our thrift > stores don't have much LDS Fiction. I have found some but it's mostly Jack > Weyland (not that there's anything wrong with that), or probably something > _I_ donated! > Katrina Duvalois > > - > AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature > http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eileen Stringer Subject: Re: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 28 Aug 2001 12:50:24 -0600 Margaret Young wrote: > I wonder how the reaction to Todd Compton's _In Sacred Loneliness_ has been. I wondered that myself and was almost tempted to purchase the only copy on the shelf at my local Barnes & Noble, but alas, the car needed petrol and the light bill wanted to be paid, so I had to put the book back and resign myself to discover what Todd Compton had to say, for another day. Eileen eileens99@bigplanet.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eileen Stringer Subject: Re: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 28 Aug 2001 12:44:59 -0600 ----- Original Message ----- >hi, I was reading last night orwell's essay "Decline of the English Murder" >and I came across a few lines about JS as one of the prime murderers in >history--thought it was intriguing, as I'd never heard that categorization >before. It was a completely different Joseph Smith. This Joseph Smith resided all his life in Great Britian and did indeed drown his wife in the bathtub. Eileen eileens99@bigplanet.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Fw: MN Bachman Credits Church with Keeping Him Alive: Montreal Canada Gazette Date: 28 Aug 2001 13:04:27 -0600 Debra L. Brown wrote: > Bachman also credits his membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of > Latter-day Saints for keeping him alive all these years, while > "people my own age and younger are passing away from smoking and > other things. I'm fortunate that I had these rules to live by." Then by what quirk of nature can one explain Keith Richards? Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry L Jeffress Subject: [AML] Call for Quotes Date: 28 Aug 2001 13:04:31 -0600 As part of the redesign of the AML website, I want to include a set of rotating quotes relevant to Mormon literature. For example: -- Scriptures -- General authorities' messages about arts and literature (to include prophets, of course) -- Critical statements by LDS scholars -- Statements by LDS artists -- General statements about art in relationship with religion from any source -- Whatever else strikes you as appropriate as an inspirational message relevant to Mormon Letters Please send your quotes directly to me at tjeffress@altavista.net. You may optionally send these to the list, where Jonathan may post them if list volume permits. In sending a quote, please clearly indicate the author and wherever possible please include full bibliographical reference for the quote's source. Also, please consider this invitation open-ended. The new AML site gets generated from a set of scripts that I can easily update, so I can add quotes at any time. -- Terry L Jeffress | Never trust the artist. Trust the tale. | -- D. H. Lawrence - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MGA Subject: Re: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 28 Aug 2001 13:30:33 -0600 > From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" > > Here are some of the audience problems, as I see them. > > Let's suppose you choose to dramatize Joseph and polygamy. Now, you could > show Joseph marrying old widows, providing for them, suggesting that that's > all plural marriage was. But that wouldn't work, because that's not what > happened. Or you could eliminate plural marriage entirely. It would ignore > an imporant historical fact, but you need to be selective anyway, so okay, we > cut that out. Except it's reductive, and besides, suddenly June 1844 doesn't > make sense anymore. (I mean, why did he destroy the Expositor?) So you could > show Joseph routinely sneaking around at night in Nauvoo to visit his young > and attractive other wives, a practice Emma, uh, disapproved of. That's all > true, so there you go, that's our story. And suddenly, Joseph is a serial > adulterer, and that's also reductive and untrue. But I maintain that there's > absolutely no way on earth to show Joseph in plural marriage as it plural > marriage was understood and taught in the nineteenth century. "It's this > tremendous sacrifice I have to make." Yeah, cry me a river. Or we could have > a scene where Joseph breaks down and cries, and talks to Emma about how sorry > he is, and he'll never do it again. You could make him seriously repentant. > And that also isn't true; that turns out to be reductive and false, as opposed > to reductive but kinda true. > \The problem with presenting Joseph's polygamy lies not with the subject but with modern audiences' ideas about sex, romantic love, etc. I firmly believe that one's reaction to polygamy reveals far more about one's notions of the sex act itself as either inherently good, inherently evil, amoral, etc. The artist trying to dramatize Nauvoo polygamy will have to present to story according to HIS or HER values, and let the audience make of it what they may. ROB [Lauer] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Annette Lyon" Subject: Re: [AML] LDS Booksellers Convention Date: 28 Aug 2001 13:40:03 -0600 Not only have I read the Odyssey, but I've read the Illiad as well--and not the condensed versions. [Luann Staheli] Me, too. And the Odyssey more than once. I had a passion for mythology as a girl, and even created a board game with my sister based on many of the Greek myths. The Odyssey was required reading for my 10th grade English class (in Utah), and I know many friends who were required to read the Illiad in high school (yes, in also in Utah). Don't think we're so backwards culturally. Annette Lyon - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MGA Subject: Re: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 28 Aug 2001 13:46:35 -0600 Scott Bronson gave a magnificent performance as Isaac Hale in the 1982 production of my play DIGGER. He was exactly what I imagined when writing the part. A major theme of the play was the reaction of a parent whose child converts to the Gospel (embodied here in the relationship between Emma Hale and Joseph Smith, and Emma and her father.) I remember all of the performances fondly, but the power of Scott's performance Issac has stayed with me after nearly two decades: especially the final scene when Isaac, learning that Emma is determined to marry Joseph, warns her that he will "make her miserable." Scott completely captured the character's conflcting emotions. DIGGER was my first attempt at playwriting. I haven't looked at the script since retyping it in 1988 for publication in SUNSTONE. Certainly it needs reworking. I would be thrilled to get to work on it if there was a chance someone would produce it. ...and contrary to the idea that a play about Joseph could only appeal to Mormons, let me say that I have given copies of DIGGER to literally DOZENS of non-Mormon playwrights, actors and directors while I lived in New York City in the 1990's. Though I have written much better plays since then, DIGGER was the one that most picked as their favorite. Knowing nothing about Joseph Smith or Mormonism, they saw it as drama about father/daughter relationships, set against a background of folk-magic and religious revivalism. ROB LAUER - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Annette Lyon" Subject: [AML] Names of Churches (was: Joseph Smith Story) Date: 28 Aug 2001 13:42:35 -0600 "Restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." Okay, I'm picky. But RLDS stood for REORGANIZED, not restored. Big difference. Annette Lyon - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Morris Subject: Re: [AML] re: Joseph Smith Story Date: 28 Aug 2001 12:55:01 -0700 (PDT) --- Tom Johnson wrote: > > Did I miss out on something? Does anyone know where > I can find the full > relation of the harmonium incident? > According to this Web site: http://www.terryhayden.free-online.co.uk/murder/serialkillers/georgesmith.htm George Joseph Smith was an infamous cockney murderer. That he was, apparently, also a bigamist, a fan of protestant hymns, and that Orwell leaves of the George is all a somewhat humorous coincidence. Or it is at least humorous to us Edward Gorey fans. ~~William Morris, the proud owner of a calendar featuring the Ashleycrumb Tinies __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: James Picht Subject: Re: [AML] LDS Booksellers Convention Date: 28 Aug 2001 15:49:34 -0500 Thom Duncan wrote: > I bet if we did a survey of every English speaking LDS who has read Homer, the > percentage of yes answers would be statistically insignificant. More hyperbole, though it's probably true that not a large percentage of our population has read Homer. As a great fan of Homer (I'm reading _The Iliad_ for the fifth time now, and only partly because I'm giving a lecture next month on honor transactions between the Homeric gods and men), though, I have to ask: So what? How many have read _Anna Karenina_, _The Brothers Karamazov_, the _Mahabharata_ (even that tiny slice of it called the _Bhagavad-Gita_), the philosophy of Lucretius or anything by Proust? I know, I know, Homer is much more important as a basis for understanding Western Civilization, but one can be very happy with absolutely no aquaintance with him, and since there's so much really good stuff to read, why worry that someone has missed some of it? Almost everyone has missed most of it, so a real literary-cultural ignoramus is only slightly more ignorant than most well-educated people. And I think even that overstates the issue. I happen to think that it improves a person to read Homer, but it also improves one to know how to do carpentry, solve differential equations, prepare a good ganache, and solve problems in thermodynamics. The laws of thermodynamics are a masterpiece of western thought every bit the equal of Homer, yet I doubt many of us would berate people for not knowing them, or make condescending comments about the thermodynamically ignorant the way we would about someone who hasn't read "Hamlet." ("Good lord, Mabel, that cretin has never read Marcus Aurelius' _Meditations_!" Why not "Criminy, Gladys, that lout doesn't know L'Hospital's rules!"?) > It's still no less embarassing given that we believe that the Glory of God is > intelligence. Intelligence doesn't mean we have a vast armamentarium of classical allusions to trot out at parties. We're all ignorant about the vast bulk of world culture and scholarship. Intelligence in the scriptural sense involves understanding what will make you happy and what can make your life a blessing to those around you. I've been blessed by people who have spent more time creating chocolate recipes and fine furniture than studying the classics, and I've been blessed by people whose knowledge of the classics has enriched my life. I'm grateful for good vets, and if my dog's vet wants to spend his free time making cabinets rather than reading Homer, I say good for him. To those of you who love Homer I say, good for you. Just don't think it makes you smart, cultured, or enlightened. It's just one of many things that can (but doesn't necessarily) do the trick. Jim Picht - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: [AML] Fw: MN News Briefs: Founder of BYU's Lamanite Generation to be Honored Date: 28 Aug 2001 19:34:16 -0400 Founder of BYU's Lamanite Generation to be Honored PROVO, UTAH -- Janie Thompson, 80, the founder of BYU's Lamanite Generation musical group as well as other music groups at the university, will be honored at BYU's Knight-Mangum Social Hall on Saturday from 6 to 9pm. Thompson was the director of BYU's entertanment organization when she founded the groups, the predecessors of today's BYU Young Ambassadors and Living Legends. She started working at BYU in 1952 after performing with the Ike Carpenter Band around the US and in Europe. Utah County dateline briefs Deseret News 24Aug01 A2 http://www.deseretnews.com/dn/view/1,1249,295019738,00.html >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Grant Subject: Re: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 28 Aug 2001 17:34:32 -0600 Tom Johnson wrote: [...] >hi, I was reading last night orwell's essay "Decline of the >English Murder" and I came across a few lines about JS as >one of the prime murderers in history Orwell was talking about a different Joseph Smith. See, e.g., "http://www.microwaredata.co.uk/murder-uk/bookhtml_s/smith_gj00.html". Chris Grant grant@math.byu.edu - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Grant Subject: Re: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 28 Aug 2001 18:13:43 -0600 Rob Lauer writes: [...] >I do think what I called the growing encroachment of >mainstream Protestantism on LDS though, will make it harder >for many in the Church to recognize real Mormon Art (art >with a world view and sense of values that is grounded in >the unique theology of the Gospel.) I'm assuming that this encroaching mainstream Protestantism is allegedly coming not from the General Authorities but from the ordinary members of the Church. I would be interested in *specific* descriptions of (a) how the members of the Church are veering towards mainstream Protestantism and away from what President Hinckley is teaching, and (b) how these theological deviations are manifesting themselves in art being produced by Latter-day Saints. I love Carl Bloch's painting of the angel comforting Christ in the Garden of Gethsemane, and I was thrilled to see that a cropped version of it was included in the latest _Ensign_. Bloch, a mainstream Protestant, painted wings on the angel. I can see how if LDS artists started painting wings on their angels, that could signify a move away from the LDS understanding of angels towards a mainstream Protestant understanding of angels. I see no such change taking place, so I'm curious exactly what sort of change is being alleged. Chris Grant grant@math.byu.edu - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rose Green" Subject: Re: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 28 Aug 2001 22:42:16 -0500 >From: "Tom Johnson" >hi, I was reading last night orwell's essay "Decline of the English Murder" >and I came across a few lines about JS as one of the prime murderers in >history--thought it was intriguing, as I'd never heard that categorization >before. >..."or Joseph Smith playing 'Nearer, my God, to Thee' on the harmonium >while one of his wives was drowning in the next room." This isn't our Joseph Smith. There was a guy named George Joseph Smith who was apparently well-known for doing away with wives by drowning them in the bathtub. I don't know the original story, but I've read other references to it. (What comes to mind is one of Dorothy Sayers' novels, Busman's Honeymoon, perhaps, where her detective Lord Peter Wimsey jokes with his wife about it on their honeymoon.) Not to say that some of the 19th-century British rumors about the Church aren't any more derogatory or creative... Rose Green _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 28 Aug 2001 23:47:03 -0600 MGA wrote: > > Marty wrote that he disagreed with my statement that the great novels about > Joseph Smith will be written by non-members. I'm glad that he is plugging > ahead on his work and ignoring such sentiments completely. Prove me > wrong--PLEASE! I'm not sure I can prove you wrong, but it won't be because it can't be done. It will be because my writing skills aren't up to the challenge. > Already a mission president's wife, without even reading any of it > or knowing anything about it, has asked me to stop working on it because > "the world isn't ready for Polygamy." What's this sudden surge of negativity from mission president's wives? And where did they get the idea that they have authority to dictate policy for the church? -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 28 Aug 2001 23:51:24 -0600 "Eric R. Samuelsen" wrote: > Let's suppose you choose to dramatize Joseph and polygamy. Now, you could show Joseph marrying old widows, providing for them, suggesting that that's all plural marriage was. But that wouldn't work, because that's not what happened. Or you could eliminate plural marriage entirely. It would ignore an imporant historical fact, but you need to be selective anyway, so okay, we cut that out. Except it's reductive, and besides, suddenly June 1844 doesn't make sense anymore. (I mean, why did he destroy the Expositor?) So you could show Joseph routinely sneaking around at night in Nauvoo to visit his young and attractive other wives, a practice Emma, uh, disapproved of. That's all true, so there you go, that's our story. And suddenly, Joseph is a serial adulterer, and that's also reductive and untrue. But I maintain that there's absolutely no way on earth to show Joseph in plural marriage as it plural marriage was understood and taught in the nineteenth century. > Drama and literature can sometimes do a better job with character than biography or history can. But in this case, the divide is just too huge. Normally I bristle at someone's claim that something is impossible, and go on a rant. But this time all I have to say is, it's already been done: OSC's _Saints_. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Needle" Subject: Re: [AML] Used LDS Books for Sale? Date: 29 Aug 2001 11:05:39 -0700 Hey, what's this??? Where in California are you going to be? You wouldn't dream of passing up an old, fat Jewish guy, would you??? ----- Original Message ----- > Gee, I happen to have a box full of that particular book in my closet. I'll be > in California in October. I'd be glad to bring a copy with me. > - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: Re: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 29 Aug 2001 12:17:09 -0600 on 8/28/01 12:13 PM, Jacob Proffitt at Jacob@Proffitt.com wrote: > Priestcraft is a peculiarly LDS sin. Isn't this "setting yourself up as a light to get gain"? s. -- skperry@mac.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: [AML] Fw: MN Internet: New Web Sites: Kent Larsen 28Aug01 US NY NYC I4 Date: 29 Aug 2001 10:58:20 -0400 Newly Listed Mormon Websites: Brent Gardner http://www.brentgardner.com/ Slickly-designed website for LDS musician available for firesides and devotionals. Includes information on scheduling events, links to mp3 files of his music and background on Gardner. >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: margaret young Subject: Re: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 29 Aug 2001 12:43:52 -0600 Oh yeah! That book, once called _Daughter of Destiny_ [MOD: _A Woman of Destiny_] with the cover sho= wing an enraptured woman being carried off by some gorgeous guy. Actuall= y, a lot of people were offended by Scott's obvious use of Eliza R. Snow'= s experience. It's from HER perspective, not Joseph's. I just read a bo= ok called _The Ferry Woman_ written (by a guy) about the Mountain Meadows= Massacre, told from the perspective of one of John D. Lee's plural wives= =2E The narrator's bitterness comes through in every page--and it's not = at all hard to sympathize with her as she watches her husband be scapegoa= ted. I am so eager to read Marilyn Brown's book (_Wine Dark Sea of Glass= _) and now will make time to do it. I have not had time for reading othe= r than research material, but needed to read _The Ferry Woman_ because I'= ll be on a panel with the author, and wanted to know what he'd done. The= author clearly has some good writing gifts, which will mature in time. = He could've used a more exacting editor. Marilyn is a great writer, and I already know that her book is b= etter because I know her writing. It'll be interesting to see what filte= r she uses to tell the story. The filter is really the thing. Who is te= lling the story, and why does it matter to them? What's at stake for the= m? "D. Michael Martindale" wrote: > Normally I bristle at someone's claim that something is impossible, and= > go on a rant. But this time all I have to say is, it's already been > done: OSC's _Saints_. > > -- > D. Michael Martindale > dmichael@wwno.com > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at > http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths > > Sponsored by Worlds Without Number > http://www.wwno.com > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > - > AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature > http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: margaret young Subject: Re: [AML] Used LDS Books for Sale? Date: 29 Aug 2001 12:47:27 -0600 I needed to write Jeff anyway to thank him for some wonderful material he sent my way. Darius Gray and I will be in San Bernardino to celebrate the re-inactment of the Saints' trek to California. Book 2 (_Bound for Canaan_) of our trilogy tells the story of these remarkable people--one of whom (a slave at the time of the trek) became "the mother of Civil Rights" in California when--a year before the Dred Scott decision, she was declared a free person because she lived on free soil. Her master, Robert Smith, was not allowed to take her to Texas unless she wanted to go. Quite a history! Anyway, we're in California Oct. 24 and probably some of the 25th. It would be a MAJOR treat to see Jeff Needle anywhere! Margaret Young Jeff Needle wrote: > Hey, what's this??? Where in California are you going to be? You wouldn't > dream of passing up an old, fat Jewish guy, would you??? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "margaret young" > > > Gee, I happen to have a box full of that particular book in my closet. > I'll be > > in California in October. I'd be glad to bring a copy with me. > > > > - > AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature > http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MGA Subject: Re: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 29 Aug 2001 12:45:33 -0600 >> In short, my problem is with what I know is a reality: a >> majority of active members seem to be concerned about reading >> or seeing something that hasn't been "approved by the >> Brethren." (As if the Brethren can--or even want to--be in >> the business of "approving" art. > > You give anecdotal examples and then leap to "majority". *That's* what > I dispute. I don't know many people who *haven't* had contact with > nutty members who will exercise what I consider to be priestcraft. But > just because the experience of hearing a nut is possibly universal > doesn't equate to *nuts* being universal. > Forgive me for not qualifying my use of the phrase "majority of active members". I should have said "the majority of active members THAT I HAVE KNOWN SINCE JOINING THE CHURCH IN 1977." I find it hard to believe that, after belonging to a dozen or more ward across the United States, I have just happened to run into a small (for lack of a better phrase) "narrow-minded" minority of members. Are you going to suggest that MOST active members approach art with the attitudes and opinions similar to those who post emails on this sight? I think that modern Americans, in general, shy away from thinking very deeply or critically about Art. I think that many of those who profess what would be broadly labeled as "conservative religious values" tend to be suspicious of "art." The majority of active Church members THAT I HAVE KNOW OVER THE PAST 24 YEARS have fallen into this camp. I find it hard to believe that my experiences are somehow unique. In saying this I don't mean to imply that these very same members aren't more open about other matters: most of those that I know are. But when it come to art (books, movies, plays), they tend to react in ways that completely befuddle me. For instance, a wonderful woman who I've known for several years borrowed a copy of the 1995 TNT mini-series JOSEPH starring Ben Kingsly and Lesley Anne Warren. The acting and directing were first rate. The attention to historical accuracy was amazing. More than any other Biblical film that I've ever seen, I thought it was the most faithful to scripture. I have many non-member friends (in the arts and out) who feel pretty much the same way. However, this bright, articulate, active LDS friend didn't like it. She said it just didn't seem very faithful to the scriptures. That's her opinion and it goes without saying that she is entitled to it and should stick to it. I told her that I thought it was the most faithful dramatic adaptation I've yet to see of any Biblical story; that the dramatic embellishments--needed when dramatizing a sparse text such as the Bible--were few and could be totally justified by the Biblical text itself. (This certainly can't be said for Cecil B. DeMille's "campy" classic THE TEN COMMANDMENTS or the 1960's film THE KING OF KINGS, which has Judas committing suicide by throwing himself in a fire.) I was interested in understanding how, in this Sister's view, the film JOSEPH was unfaithful to the scriptures. She finally admitted that "I really couldn't think of any examples...I guess, it just didn't seem like they {Jacob, Joseph) behaved very much like prophets." There is a tendency--a BIG TENDENCY--I believe, among many Church members to think that a prophet acts like a reserved, dignified, suit-and-tie, elderly American gentleman of the late 20th century. Of course, the facts are that the majority of prophets have not fit this stereotype...including the majority of the Church's founding prophets and apostles. And so LDS history in art has been reduced to the "sanatized" "historical revisionism" of THE WORK AND THE GLORY series. LDS audiences (it seems to me) demand the same thing that members of other minority groups (gay, ethnic, etc.): that the art appease any doubts they have regarding their affiliation with the group. These are simply my opinions based on my own experiences and observations. ROB LAUER - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MGA Subject: Re: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 29 Aug 2001 12:46:26 -0600 AMEN!!!!!AND AMEN!!!!!!! Rob Lauer > From: cgileadi@emerytelcom.net > > That has always been an interesting question for me: can we accept a flawed > prophet? I think of course we can! [snip] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Grant Subject: [AML] re: Joseph Smith Story Date: 29 Aug 2001 12:58:02 -0600 It has been fascinating to read the threads on Eugene England and Joseph Smith in parallel, and to compare how the Mormon intellectual community tells the story of one of its own to the way it says the story of a Church leader should be told. I will be satisfied if the Mormon intelligentsia uses the same degree of discretion, kindness, and understanding, in telling the Prophet Joseph's story as it does in telling Brother England's. Chris Grant grant@math.byu.edu - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: RE: [AML] Names of Churches (was: Joseph Smith Story) Date: 29 Aug 2001 13:09:24 -0600 ---Original Message From: Annette Lyon > "Restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." > > Okay, I'm picky. But RLDS stood for REORGANIZED, not > restored. Big difference. I'm pretty sure this reference is that the REORGANIZED suffered a further split and that that split called itself RESTORED. That's the inference I made. Which is interesting as that would make them the restored restored church of Christ... Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: cgileadi@emerytelcom.net Subject: Re: [AML] Names of Churches (was: Joseph Smith Story) Date: 29 Aug 2001 19:12:22 GMT > "Restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." > > Okay, I'm picky. But RLDS stood for REORGANIZED, not restored. Big > difference. > > Annette Lyon > Years ago when the RLDS Church allowed women the priesthood, my friend tuned into the TV announcement just as the newscaster said. . . ."Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints announced today that women can now hold the priesthood. . . ." She stood for a few moments wondering what she thought about this. . . how it changed her lifeview about the church and herself. Then she realized it was the RLDS church. A nice defining moment. Cathy Wilson This message was sent using Endymion MailMan. http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paris ANDERSON" Subject: [AML] Granite Publishing Date: 29 Aug 2001 13:14:05 -0600 Dear Everyone, I just talked to Jeff Lambson at Granite. I asked if he had received an = email I sent him about J. SCOTT BRONSON'S manuscript, "THE WHIPPING = BOY." He said they been trying to find him but haven't had any luck. = He also said he would be willing to look at other manuscripts and might = even be willing to be that third alternative publisher everyone keeps = talking about. granitepd@aol.com That's his email address. Paris Anderson - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: [AML] Priestcraft (was: Joseph Smith Story) Date: 29 Aug 2001 13:15:37 -0600 ---Original Message From: Steve > > Priestcraft is a peculiarly LDS sin. > > Isn't this "setting yourself up as a light to get gain"? Sort of, but not really. And I should probably add that by peculiarly LDS, I don't mean exclusively LDS. "Setting yourself up as a light to get gain" can technically apply to anybody. I am a computer expert in the MLM vertical market. I tell people all the time that my company is the best there is in the industry. I do so to get gain. Anybody who accepts money for their work is essentially saying to the world that they are the best person for that job at that wage. We all set ourselves up as lights to get gain. What I'm really talking about is setting yourself up erroneously as God. I consider it a serious sin and one that is more common in the church than outside it. As faithful members, we have to have a relationship with God and we have to act on that relationship. The problem comes when we act as the relationship with God for someone else. Prophets and Bishops give us council and are called to act as Judges by God in certain circumstances. The rest of us make grave errors when we attempt to do the same. We should always be wary of anyone who claims that they know what God wants us to do. Which is one of the problems we have as LDS artists. Art can be seen as a message (certainly, art communicates). And since our art is frequently influenced by the gospel and contains Truths, our art will necessarily contain messages from God. Which if fine and even good. It is what missionaries do and what we are told to do as members all the time. There are two dangers in doing so, however. First, we have to make sure that we make it clear that we are not proxies *for* God--i.e. that our message may contain Truths, but those Truths are for the individual use of those hearing the message and all who hear can come to God individually. The second danger is that we can appear (and some artists actively encourage the perception) to be taking on authority we don't actually have. Talent does not equal calling. Writing well does not equate to being called to proclaim the word of God to the benighted masses. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MGA Subject: Re: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 29 Aug 2001 13:13:18 -0600 [MOD: I sense that this thread is now drifting outside the subject matter of the List into discussions of what LDS Church doctrine are/ought to be. I'm allowing Rob this reply, since it comes in response to a direct question from the List and since it has an artistic tie-in; however, I'd like to encourage everyone to keep in mind the following AML-List Guideline in posting further thoughts on this topic: 2. THE TOPIC IS LITERATURE It is not politics, pet peeves, the general authorities, or the doctrines or policies of the LDS Church (except as they affect how Mormons read and write). State your opinions frankly, but stick to literary judgments. Thanks to all in advance for helping us stick to the list topic.] I think TESTAMENT is a good example of a "touchy-feely" "Evangelical Christian" approach to THE BOOK OF MORMON. I think President Hinkley's hesitation to admit that we believe that "God was once a man living on anoher planet" in the 1997 TIME magazine article (and his subsequent assurances that he hadn't deviated from the Gospel) is another example. Here's a question: when non-members ask you "what do Mormons believe?" would you be comfortable saying, "We believe 'As man now is, God once was; As God now is, man may become.'" Or would you feel that your first obligation would be to assure them that we believe in salvation through Christ. Yes, the latter is an ESSENTIAL PART of the Gosepl, but the former statement puts every doctrine and practice into an eternal perspective...one that is the opposite of the traditional "orthodox Christian" and "Protestant" view. [Rob Lauer] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 29 Aug 2001 13:29:21 -0600 Jacob Proffitt wrote: > Of course, it isn't > often from Joseph's viewpoint (though I have to give Card props for > putting him as viewpoint at all), so maybe it isn't an example of what > you're talking about. You need to re-read the book. None of the POV characters are Joseph. We only know about him what other characters around him say or see him do. When I dropped in on Scott during his writing of the novel, and we had lunch at a French restaurant in Provo (now gone) he was explicit in his conviction that it would be impossible to do a novel about Joseph Smith from Smith's POV without making him look crazy, so that's why he made sure that Joseph's actions were seen through the POV of other characters. I happen to disagree that one can't write a novel from Joseph's POV without making him look insane, but that's another matter. Thom Duncan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] LDS Booksellers Convention Date: 29 Aug 2001 13:43:32 -0600 James Picht wrote: >I'm grateful for good vets, and if my dog's vet wants to spend his >free time making cabinets rather than reading Homer, I say good for >him. To those of you who love Homer I say, good for you. Just don't >think it makes you smart, cultured, or enlightened. It's just one of >many things that can (but doesn't necessarily) do the trick. To paraphrase that marvel of modern philosophic thought, the film _A Fish Called Wanda*_: WANDA: Does that make any sense, you ape? OTTO: Apes don't read Nietsche. WANDA: Yes they do, Otto. They just don't understand him. --- The reading isn't the key, and never has been. It's the thinking, the pondering, the search for meaning and truth. That's the intelligence that's the glory of God, not a huge library (though I think those are cool, too). Scott Parkin *Yes, it's rated R and contains loads of sexual innuendo, but I love the film and find a wonderful depth to the humor. YMMV. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Needle" Subject: Re: [AML] Names of Churches (was: Joseph Smith Story) Date: 29 Aug 2001 12:39:14 -0700 And it's spelled "Latter Day Saints." ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 12:42 PM > "Restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." > > Okay, I'm picky. But RLDS stood for REORGANIZED, not restored. Big > difference. > > Annette Lyon > > > > > > > - > AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature > http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm > - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] Moderator Apology for List Volume Date: 30 Aug 2001 15:45:45 -0500 Folks, Apologies for sending out over 30 messages yesterday. I sent them in several batches, widely separated in time, and did not realize until later that I sent out nearly 40 posts instead of 30. (I can only plead that contractors were digging up my yard yesterday to attach to the city water and sewer, and perhaps buried a portion of my brain along with much of the lawn...) Jonathan Langford AML-List Moderator - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Annette Lyon" Subject: Re: [AML] Cliches in Science Fiction Date: 29 Aug 2001 14:25:10 -0600 >DS-9 was a little more original and didn't have the logical crew member Yes, DS-9 did. Odo filled that role. He was more like Data than Spock as he explored the differences between humans and changlings and wished to be more a part of the human world. But he was clearly more logical and unemotional than his other crewmembers (although yes, especially toward the end with Kira, his emotion came out more). Annette Lyon - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: RE: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 29 Aug 2001 17:17:18 -0600 ---Original Message From: MGA > > You give anecdotal examples and then leap to "majority". *That's*=20 > > what I dispute. I don't know many people who *haven't* had contact=20 > > with nutty members who will exercise what I consider to be=20 > > priestcraft. But just because the experience of hearing a nut is=20 > > possibly universal doesn't equate to *nuts* being universal. > >=20 > Forgive me for not qualifying my use of the phrase "majority=20 > of active members". I should have said "the majority of=20 > active members THAT I HAVE KNOWN SINCE JOINING THE CHURCH IN=20 > 1977." I find it hard to believe that, after belonging to a=20 > dozen or more ward across the United States, I have just=20 > happened to run into a small (for lack of a better phrase)=20 > "narrow-minded" minority of members. Are you going to suggest=20 > that MOST active members approach art with the attitudes and=20 > opinions similar to those who post emails on this sight? I=20 > think that modern Americans, in general, shy away from=20 > thinking very deeply or critically about Art. I think that=20 > many of those who profess what would be broadly labeled as=20 > "conservative religious values" tend to be suspicious of=20 > "art." The majority of active Church members THAT I HAVE KNOW=20 > OVER THE PAST 24 YEARS have fallen into this camp. I find it=20 > hard to believe that my experiences are somehow unique. In=20 > saying this I don't mean to imply that these very same=20 > members aren't more open about other matters: most of those=20 > that I know are. But when it come to art (books, movies,=20 > plays), they tend to react in ways that completely befuddle=20 > me.=20 I didn't mean to push any buttons here, Rob. I construe some frustration on your part by your use of repeated all caps in your amendment so I'll try to clearly state where I'm coming from. Personally, I think that everybody *should* be suspicious of "art". I don't feel that a suspicion of art is at all unwarranted or unusual. I think that there is a problem with people who are entirely unsuspicious of art. That said, people can be over-suspicious of art as well. The trick is to find a balance that fits the individual and the situation. This evaluation has to be a personal one and cannot be applied universally. I am personally less suspicious of art than a lot of my friends. I'll see movies they won't and I'll cut more slack than they will as I see them (as the recent discussion of Jerry McGuire showed). But that doesn't mean that they are over-suspicious any more than it means that I am not suspicious enough. You have given a number of examples of people who you think are over-suspicious. My caution is that a) you judge them rather harshly for not having your same balance (as I do when I call them nuts) and b) you generalize your experiences with them to make up a majority. Since your related experience is counter to my own, I disagree with your statement that the majority of church members would reject an accurate rendition (what a lovely word for art--rending is precisely right with its multiple connotations of reduce, purify, and concentrate) of Joseph Smith. Until such a beast exists, however, we won't know which one of us is the more accurate in our assessments. Which totally avoids the question of whether or not it would be right to reject such a portrayal on a person by person basis. I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm merely saying that I think you are based on my experience. I'm adding that you don't know how the majority of church members will react and I'll make it explicit that I don't either. To use Orson Scott Card's _Saints_ as an example, I know a number of people who didn't like the overly-Freudian portrayal of Joseph Smith, but they didn't reject it out of hand or call it evil and most people enjoyed it thoroughly. Most of these people were BYU students, but I'll bet that it'd be similar if I could find people around me who have read it. People as a rule don't think deeply or critically about *anything* that doesn't directly affect them (and often not about things that *do*). If you are saying that the majority of LDS people don't think critically about art, you are certainly correct. I think that the only thing we could honestly say that a majority of church members think deeply and critically about is the Gospel. But if you generalize that to a statement that the majority of members will reject an accurate artistic portrayal of Joseph Smith, I think you are wrong. There is a difference between thinking uncritically and rejecting. If you come up with a portrayal of Joseph Smith that requires critical thinking to enjoy, then I think you might find a majority giving it a miss. But such a requirement shows more about the artist than the audience. If your art doesn't entertain then it won't be popular no matter how good it is artistically. > For instance, a wonderful woman who I've known for=20 > several years borrowed a copy of the 1995 TNT mini-series=20 > JOSEPH starring Ben Kingsly and Lesley Anne Warren. The=20 > acting and directing were first rate. The attention to=20 > historical accuracy was amazing. More than any other Biblical=20 > film that I've ever seen, I thought it was the most faithful=20 > to scripture. I have many non-member friends (in the arts and=20 > out) who feel pretty much the same way. However, this bright,=20 > articulate, active LDS friend didn't like it. She said it=20 > just didn't seem very faithful to the scriptures. That's her=20 > opinion and it goes without saying that she is entitled to it=20 > and should stick to it. I told her that I thought it was the=20 > most faithful dramatic adaptation I've yet to see of any=20 > Biblical story; that the dramatic embellishments--needed when=20 > dramatizing a sparse text such as the Bible--were few and=20 > could be totally justified by the Biblical text itself.=20 > I was interested in understanding how, in this=20 > Sister's view, the film JOSEPH was unfaithful to the=20 > scriptures. She finally admitted that "I really couldn't=20 > think of any examples...I guess, it just didn't seem like=20 > they {Jacob, Joseph) behaved very much like prophets."=20 I haven't seen the movie, so I have no idea what my own opinion of it might be. However, I think that you need to be very careful about judging her unfit to recognize faithful art just because she disagrees with you about that movie. You disagree with her about her evaluation of the TNT special, but I'm not sure that says anything at all about how church members would receive an accurate story about Joseph Smith. > There is a tendency--a BIG TENDENCY--I believe, among many Church=20 > members to think that a prophet acts like a reserved,=20 > dignified, suit-and-tie, elderly American gentleman of the=20 > late 20th century. Of course, the facts are that the majority=20 > of prophets have not fit this stereotype...including the=20 > majority of the Church's founding prophets and apostles. And=20 > so LDS history in art has been reduced to the "sanatized"=20 > "historical revisionism" of THE WORK AND THE GLORY series.=20 > LDS audiences (it seems to > me) demand the same thing that members of other minority=20 > groups (gay, ethnic, etc.): that the art appease any doubts=20 > they have regarding their affiliation with the group. These=20 > are simply my opinions based on my own experiences and=20 > observations. ROB LAUER Well, I agree that we tend to want too much seriousness in our prophets. We *do* as a culture tend to equate "called to preach God's word" with "serious demeanor". But I think that cause and effect are a bit transposed here. I think that we've been trained by our past art and hagiographic history to expect seriousness. I think it reflects a lack of trust by the historians and artists as much as anything else. Right now, I think we have experienced two poles with hagiography on the one hand and expos=E9 on the other. I'd love to see something that is accurate without having an axe to grind. Given a choice between hagiography and expos=E9, I don't fault members for hanging out in the hagiography camp. But that doesn't necessarily mean that hagiography is all we'll accept, it's just all we've been given. I think that the reception of God's Army is proof of my opinion. We'll see if that bears up when Dutcher releases his movie about Joseph Smith. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gerald G Enos Subject: Re: [AML] Fw: MN News Briefs: Singles Film Date: 29 Aug 2001 17:15:18 -0600 I wouldn't mind seeing it just because a singles ward is the reason I met my husband of nearly 11 years. Konnie Enos ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Needle" Subject: Re: [AML] Used LDS Books for Sale? Date: 29 Aug 2001 16:16:39 -0700 No more than it would be a treat to see you guys! Hope you have a great trip. Best to Darius. ----- Original Message ----- > I needed to write Jeff anyway to thank him for some wonderful material he sent > my way. Darius Gray and I will be in San Bernardino to celebrate the > re-inactment of the Saints' trek to California. Book 2 (_Bound for Canaan_) of > our trilogy tells the story of these remarkable people--one of whom (a slave at > the time of the trek) became "the mother of Civil Rights" in California when--a > year before the Dred Scott decision, she was declared a free person because she > lived on free soil. Her master, Robert Smith, was not allowed to take her to > Texas unless she wanted to go. Quite a history! Anyway, we're in California > Oct. 24 and probably some of the 25th. It would be a MAJOR treat to see Jeff > Needle anywhere! > > Margaret Young - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jerry Tyner Subject: RE: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 29 Aug 2001 16:59:28 -0700 A friend of mine from my youth had a great response to someone saying "the brethren have said...". He would always ask - "Where is that written?" Or "Who said it and when?" Jerry Tyner - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: William Morris Subject: [AML] Letters and Mormon Literature Date: 29 Aug 2001 16:48:34 -0700 (PDT) I've been reading _Tales of Genji_ for my MA exam and have been struck by the importance of letters to the narrative. Genji judges the women he wants to romance by the letters they write---and not just expression but also penmanship, the kind of paper they choose, etc. I know that I'm not remotely alone in this observation and that there's a lot of scholarship out there about Genji and letters, but rather than pursuing Genji, I began wondering about Mormon lit and letters. Okay, so there's the story in the humor issue of _Irreantum_ by Donald R. Marshall that's in epistolary form. I found the form effective because a lot of the humor (some of it bitter/sweet) was in the gaps that the reader saw as the letters went back and forth. Are there other examples in Mormon literature of either epistolary novels/short stories, or where letters play an important role in the development of the narrative? What do you all think of the epistolary novel genre? Would you be interested in reading a Mormon one? Obviously, it would be a natural form to use when writing a mission novel, but other scenarios could also be interesting. A general authority corresponding with his inactive/apostate son/daughter? A young mother who has moved with her husband to the 'mission field' (Arkansas? Maine?)writing to her sibling/parent back in Utah/Idaho? And so on. The written word is an important part of Mormon theology and history. Richard Cracroft and others have written about the rich cultural heritage to be found in the letters and diaries of the 19th century saints. What is the place of letters in Mormon literature? What could be the place of letters in Mormon fiction? Examples, ideas, likes and dislikes---I would welcome them all. I'm starting to play with the idea of using different modes of discourse in my fiction (newsclippings, diary entries, academic reports) and would love to benefit from the experience of those who have read or written this kind of stuff before. ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "R.W. Rasband" Subject: [AML] Midway Swiss Days August 31-September 1 Date: 29 Aug 2001 17:37:35 -0700 (PDT) Once again this year list members on the Wasatch front (or elsewhere, for that matter, who can take the time to come) are invited to the Midway Swiss Days festival, held in the beautiful Heber valley located 45 miles southeast of Salt Lake. There will be lots of great food, entertainment and stuff to purchase, and yours truly will once again be singing in the chorus of the musical variety show "A Jubilant Song", held in the town hall each night at 7:00. Details for the event can be found at http://midwayswissdays.com (An interesting sidelight to Swiss Days is that much of the proceeds goes to the Midway Boosters, the non-profit organization that runs the festival and other events through the year. But a significant amount goes to the general missionary fund of the LDS church, and has since the first Swiss Days festival in 1947. I suppose there have been well-meaning suggestions to move Swiss Days from the Friday and Saturday before Labor Day to the Sunday and Monday of that weekend. But that won't happen as long as the current financial arrangements are set.) ===== R.W. Rasband Heber City, UT rrasband@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tom Johnson" Subject: [AML] LDS Theology/Philosophy (was: Joseph Smith Story) Date: 30 Aug 2001 00:08:20 -0400 > [MOD: I sense that this thread is now drifting outside the subject matter of > the List into discussions of what LDS Church doctrine are/ought to be. There's a great listserv devoted somewhat to this topic, the philosophy of theology. See pasted notes below. LDS-Phil The LDS Philosophy of Religion list. This list discusses the issues in the Philosophy of Religion and Philosophical Theology from a uniquely Mormon perspective. The list is primarily for professional philosophers and those with training in philosophy who happen to be Mormon or interested in Mormon theology. The hope is that the list will give these people an opportunity to discuss religious issues within the confines of their technical expertise. The list is not moderated, but subscription must be approved. It is a low volume list. To Subscribe: mail to with the body: subscribe LDS-PHIL your name To Unsubscribe: mail to with the body: signoff LDS-PHIL List Operator: R. Dennis Potter FAQ: http://www.nd.edu/~rpotter/ldsphil.html - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Debra L. Brown" Subject: [AML] Fw: MN News Briefs: MoTab Organist at Eccles Festival Date: 30 Aug 2001 00:48:47 -0400 News Briefs MoTab Organist at Eccles Festival SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH -- Mormon Tabernacle Choir organist Richard Elliott has nothing but good to say about the 4,000-pipe Eccles Memorial Organ, installed in the Roman Catholic Cathedral of the Madeleine in Salt Lake City. Elliott, who played a recital on the organ in 1995, is on the board of the Eccles Festival, started that year, one year after the organ was installed as part of a renovation of the Cathedral. Elliott says he enjoys playing the Eccles Organ "at least as much" as the better-known organ in the Tabernacle on Temple Square, "I'm very fond of tracker, or mechanical-action, instruments; I like the feel of them," he said. "The acoustics [in the cathedral] are marvelous. There is actually more reverberation than in the Tabernacle. You sacrifice some of the clarity, but there are great effects possible and some music works better there. It has lots of color, and visually, it's very impressive." Eccles Festival Is Tuned to Listeners Who 'Hate' Organ Music Salt Lake Tribune 26Aug01 A2 http://www.sltrib.com/08262001/arts/126014.htm >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 30 Aug 2001 01:53:54 -0600 Jacob Proffitt wrote: > As far as it goes, in my experience, the *majority* of LDS members have > had enough experience with priestcraft to automatically discount any > reference to what "the brethren" have said--if only because "the > brethren" is such a vague term in the first place. Everyone completely ignore what Jacon says here. And by the way, the Brethren have said that LDS publishers should publish all my books, and LDS readers should buy them, read them, and love them. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Hall" Subject: [AML] Rob Lauer Date: 30 Aug 2001 07:15:20 +0000 I love it when an author I've read appears on the list. Rob may have been posting for a while, but I didn't put him together with his plays until Scott mentioned _Digger_ yesterday. I know of two of Rob's plays, the ones that were published in Sunstone: _Digger_, Nov. 1988 (performed at BYU in 1988), and _The Beehive State_, Dec. 1989 (performed in Virginia around that time). I liked reading both. The Beehive State was about dissention within a Utah polygamous family around the time of the manefesto, and was pretty good. The "about the author" blurb said that Rob was involved with a theater group in Virginia, which performed _The Beehive State_. So, tell us more about your career, Rob. Have you continued working in the theater? Have other plays of your been produced or performed, especially ones with Mormon themes? Andrew Hall Wenatchee, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Names of Churches (was: Joseph Smith Story) Date: 30 Aug 2001 02:00:35 -0600 Annette Lyon wrote: > > "Restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." > > Okay, I'm picky. But RLDS stood for REORGANIZED, not restored. Big > difference. You missed my point. The REORGANIZED Church had a schism, and the break-off faction called itself the RESTORED Church. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 30 Aug 2001 02:26:27 -0600 Chris Grant wrote: > I will be satisfied if the Mormon intelligentsia uses the > same degree of discretion, kindness, and understanding, in > telling the Prophet Joseph's story as it does in telling > Brother England's. Holy moley, I wouldn't! Gene England just died. Eulogizing the life of a recently deceased person is always done with discretion, kindness, and understanding. It's the appropriate thing to do at a time like that. But a novel exploring a historical character that used the "eulogy" approach would be absolutely awful! Why it would be...it would be...The Work and the Glory! (Which has its good points, but exploring the character of Joseph Smith is NOT one of them!) -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 30 Aug 2001 03:15:03 -0600 Thom Duncan wrote: > You need to re-read the book. None of the POV characters are Joseph. > We only know about him what other characters around him say or see him do. > > When I dropped in on Scott during his writing of the novel, and we had > lunch at a French restaurant in Provo (now gone) he was explicit in his > conviction that it would be impossible to do a novel about Joseph Smith > from Smith's POV without making him look crazy, so that's why he made > sure that Joseph's actions were seen through the POV of other characters. The very first scene where Eliza R.--excuse me--Dinah Kirkham sees Joseph, is from his POV. Once again, Card broke one of his own rules, something he's famous for. -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 30 Aug 2001 08:03:29 -0600 Okay, it's been done. OSC's Saints and Sam Taylor's Nightfall at Nauvoo. = Saints isn't about Joseph Smith, it's about a fictional female character = who sort of tangentially resembles Eliza R. Snow. Nightfall at Nauvoo, I = haven't read in awhile; anyone remember it? Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Eugene England Date: 30 Aug 2001 08:50:52 -0600 A lot of people have been writing about Gene, and sharing their memories = of Gene. I would like to add to these comments, except that I find it = difficult to say very much beyond this: I loved Gene. His memorial = service was entirely excessive and completely appropriate, and the talks = given there were the first remarks in or out of the Church that I have = found inspirational in a very long time. =20 But I think it might be valuable to asssess, if we can, what he actually = meant to Mormon letters. Here is a brief and only partial list; others = could, no doubt, add to it, and I hope you will. =20 1) Gene was perhaps our greatest champion of and practitioner of the = personal essay. Of all his writings, I find myself drawn time and again = to those seamless, beautiful, eloquent essays. If there's one great = accomplishment above all others that we should remember Gene for, it's the = personal essay. 2) He founded Dialogue. 3) He was instrumental in the early days of Sunstone, and his fingerprints = are all over that essential journal. 4) He created and taught a class in Mormon literature, which opened the = eyes, hearts and minds of endless generations of students, both at BYU and = at UVSC. 5) He was an astute and unfailingly gracious critic, and a great cheerleade= r for the best work by our best writers. 6) He was one of the founders of AML. 7) He was a pretty fair country poet. 8) He was actively engaged in the New Mormon History movement, was well = known in Mormon History Association, wrote a terrific Brigham Young = biography, and was a well-informed and active historian. =20 9) He founded the nation's first academic program in Mormon Studies, at = UVSC. 10) He was an astute, well-informed and excellent critic and champion of = Mormon drama. =20 11) He remains, for me, our most important and valuable Shakespeare = critic. In fact, he might be said to have been our most valuable = practitioner of what we might call 'Mormon criticism,' which is to say = literary criticism which has LDS theology as its philosophical core. When = Arthur Henry King passed away recently, a number of you wrote about his = use of LDS theology in his own criticism. I never met Arthur Henry King; = never took a class from him, only read one book of his. I'm in no = position to say how Gene's approach may have meshed with Professor = King's, or how they may have differed. But I think it's interesting to = consider possible connections between these two men. I do know that = hearing Gene lecture about King Lear was an utterly life-changing = experience, both for me and for our students. =20 12) Finally, for me, Gene proved that its possible to be a believing and = active member of the Church, and still an active, engaged intellectual, = liberal, feminist and new historicist. I think it unlikely that I would = be a member of the Church today without Gene's example. I think it very = unlikely that I would be teaching at BYU had it not been for Gene's = enthusiastic support at one particular point. I think it's absolutely = impossible that I would be writing plays today without Gene's encouragement= . =20 There are many of you on the List who knew him better than I did, and of = course, many who have accomplished more. I was up all night last night, = assessing my life, reviewing my accomplishments, repenting and thinking of = all the ways I have wasted my earthly probation. I began such a process = because I began to compare my own life to Gene's, and found it wanting. = Gene is, very simply, my hero. And I think this will be my last post for = awhile; I think I'd better lurk for awhile. I got some catching up to do. Eric Samuelsen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: margaret young Subject: [AML] Re: Eugene England (was: Joseph Smith Story) Date: 30 Aug 2001 09:10:50 -0600 I'm wondering about the implication of the word "discretion" in Chris Grant's post. Gene England himself, in order to preserve the peace, insisted that he was simply retiring. He'd say it with a smile. He never mentioned that the retirement was not what he wanted and that it was forced. That was his use of discretion. To me, it is consistent with who Gene was, consistent with his book _Making Peace_. He was a peacemaker. Yet on other occasions, he spoke boldly--usually when it was someone else's reputation at stake, or justice itself at stake. One of the themes of Gene's funeral was his love for the Church, its leaders, and the Lord. Everyone who knew Gene knew he had a strong testimony. Yet if someone were to write a biography of Gene England, they would surely have to include his moments of frustration with the institutional Church. The Gene England I knew never hesitated to speak boldly--most often for those who couldn't speak for themselves. He would not use that same boldness in protecting himself, but he was absolutely bold. And he had a sweet, almost naive faith that others would do the right thing. That particular faith was tried to the limit, I'm afraid. I get very nervous about the suggestion that we use "discretion" in telling any of the Church leaders' stories. Couldn't that lead to more iconizing and conscious censorship? I think the key is not "discretion" (and what could conceiveably be justified by that), but balance. Brigham Young, for example, said some appalling things about blacks. They were exactly what his fellow-Americans believed, but in today's world, we recognize the words as utterly appalling (and anti-Mormon sources use them everywhere in their materials). On the other hand, Brigham attempted to purchase slaves in order to free them. He told a little white lie to prevent Green Flake from being sold away. Green said that Brigham always listened to him and "honored what he had to say." I think it would be unfair to show only one side of Brother Brigham in this issue. I would be terribly disappointed in a book that told all the great things he did for Utah's slave population without mentioning that it was he who declared Utah a slave territory and pronounced all Blacks as inferior and cursed. I know that Gene England would not want to be put on a pedastol. I can't imagine anyone would. I know President HInckley has said that one great challenge he faces is people idealizing him. I would hope that we would tell Joseph Smith's story rather like Donna Hill did--truthfully, compassionately, and without an agenda to either exalt or damn. Chris Grant wrote: > It has been fascinating to read the threads on Eugene England > and Joseph Smith in parallel, and to compare how the Mormon > intellectual community tells the story of one of its own to > the way it says the story of a Church leader should be told. > I will be satisfied if the Mormon intelligentsia uses the > same degree of discretion, kindness, and understanding, in > telling the Prophet Joseph's story as it does in telling > Brother England's. > > Chris Grant > grant@math.byu.edu > > - > AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature > http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: [AML] Priestcraft (was: Joseph Smith Story) Date: 30 Aug 2001 08:59:58 -0600 At 12:13 PM 8/28/01 -0600, you wrote: >While I'm at it, I should probably define my use of the term >"priestcraft". Priestcraft is a peculiarly LDS sin. The phenomenon >involves members assuming more authority than they've been given and >buttressing that authority with often vague calls to authority. I'd thought of the term as referring to any false claims to divine authority. People like Jim Jones and that fellow in Waco and What's -his-name Bakker exercise priestcraft. They tell people stuff, tell them it came from God, and then use their gullible followers for their own ends. Barbara R. Hume barbara@techvoice.com (801) 765-4900 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 30 Aug 2001 09:08:38 -0600 At 01:30 PM 8/28/01 -0600, you wrote: >The problem with presenting Joseph's polygamy lies not with the subject but >with modern audiences' ideas about sex, romantic love, etc. I firmly believe >that one's reaction to polygamy reveals far more about one's notions of the >sex act itself as either inherently good, inherently evil, amoral, etc. I was thinking along these lines just before I read this post. I was thinking about the way Card portrayed the plural wife thing in Saints, and I was thinking that no matter how charismatic and attractive the prophet was the idea of sleeping with another woman's husband is totally gross, and then I was wondering if that was a modern sensibility, and then I was thinking that it is apparently not typical in our wicked and adulterous generation--and then I was thinking that it must have seemed even more horrifying in th nineteenth century. You don't have to consider the sex act inherently evil to consider it evil under certain circumstances. Barbara R. Hume barbara@techvoice.com (801) 765-4900 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: RE: [AML] Granite Publishing Date: 30 Aug 2001 09:09:54 -0700 Maybe the AML should invite him to speak at the Mormon writers conference = on Nov. 3. -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 12:14 PM Dear Everyone, I just talked to Jeff Lambson at Granite. I asked if he had received an = =3D email I sent him about J. SCOTT BRONSON'S manuscript, "THE WHIPPING =3D BOY." He said they been trying to find him but haven't had any luck. =3D He also said he would be willing to look at other manuscripts and might = =3D even be willing to be that third alternative publisher everyone keeps =3D talking about. granitepd@aol.com That's his email address. Paris Anderson - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Grant Subject: [AML] Evangelical Christianity in LDS Art (was: Joseph Smith Story) Date: 30 Aug 2001 09:46:49 -0600 Rob Lauer writes: [...] >I think TESTAMENT is a good example of a "touchy-feely" >"Evangelical Christian" approach to THE BOOK OF MORMON. I thought the Evangelical Christian approach to the Book of Mormon was to condemn it. ;-) Not really knowing what is meant by "touchy-feely" in this context, I consulted _The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language_, 4th edition. The first of the two definitions given is: 1. Marked by or emphasizing physical closeness and emotional openness: *became uncomfortable when the group therapy session got too touchy-feely*. _Testaments_ is touchy-feely in this sense, but so are the corresponding scriptural accounts, so I'm guessing that that's not what's being objected to. The second definition is: 2. Based on sentiment or intuition, especially to the exclusion of critical judgment: *"a book that proves the existence of the Almighty . . . without recourse to spiritual mumbo jumbo or any of that touchy-feely faith stuff"* (Adam Begley). I suppose that a case could be made that _Testaments_ is unsophisticated, that Evangelical Christians seem unsophisticated (particularly if one's impression is built largely on glimpses of televangelists obtained while channel- surfing), and that, therefore, _Testaments_ bears the mark of Evangelical Christianity. Is there a more substantial connection than that--say, one in which the unique theology of Evangelical Christianity figures? Chris Grant grant@math.byu.edu - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tony Markham Subject: [AML] An Iconography of Our Own (was: Joseph Smith Story) Date: 30 Aug 2001 14:25:32 -0400 Chris Grant wrote: > I would be interested in > *specific* descriptions of (a) how the members of the Church > are veering towards mainstream Protestantism and away from > what President Hinckley is teaching, and (b) how these > theological deviations are manifesting themselves in art > being produced by Latter-day Saints. I'd like to respond to Chris by showing how our representational art is becoming exclusively Mormon with exclusively LDS meanings attached to images. In the September 2001 issue of the Ensign is a very nice story entitled, "Loving My Wayward Child." I liked this story for many reasons and found it to be an exemplary slice of the gospel in action. In the story, despite a mother's love and faith, her teenage daughter quits going to church, starts using alcohol and drugs, and becomes sexually active. So how does the illustrator depict this self-destructive behavior? A closed body posture turned away from her imploring mother, a sullen glare, AND multiple ear piercings. Apparently, an ear with multiple piercings is now Mormon shorthand for drinking, doping, and sleeping around. This is an important tool for writers to remember as we characterize on page, saving many words. Tony Markham - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: [AML] Card on Artistic Charity Date: 30 Aug 2001 13:51:06 -0600 http://www.thewatchmen.com/ma/ma95/card.html From a talk by Orson Scott Card in 1995, about the relationship of Mormon artists with each other. "First of all, we need desperately to be non-competitive with each other, to rejoice in each other's success, to recognize that just because I don't particularly care for the works of writer X doesn't mean his work doesn't have a place in the Mormon Church. I hear artists often sneer at each other's work. "Oh, that was trash." "Oh, that was garbage." "Well, I don't understand why anybody ever bought that book." "I don't know why anybody likes that music." Well, if you don't understand it then I urge you not to write that kind of music, or not to write that kind of book. You don't understand that audience at all, do you? So write for your audience and don't begrudge them theirs." Thom Duncan - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Langford Subject: Re: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 30 Aug 2001 15:36:56 -0500 Thom Duncan wrote (about Scott Card's _Saints_): >You need to re-read the book. None of the POV characters are Joseph. >We only know about him what other characters around him say or see him do. This turns out not to be the case. While Joseph Smith is not the central character of the book, there are several scenes that are told from his point of view. Principally, those scenes do I think have to do with polygamy: for example, the night that he consummates his marriage with Dinah Kirkham (around pages 450-475 in my edition). Margaret Young wrote: >Actually, a lot of people were offended by Scott's obvious use of Eliza R. >>Snow's experience. To which I reply: I wonder why? Because they felt it wasn't true to her experience? Because they felt that since he didn't use her name, he was somehow stealing something from her? My understanding is that Dinah Kirkham is a composite of about three early female members of the Church, Eliza R. Snow being only one of them. (I don't remember which were the others.) Certainly there's a lot in _Saints_ that's not from Eliza R. Snow's life, although the parts having to do with Dinah's relationship with Joseph and (later) Brigham Young do seem to be mostly taken from her life (so far as I can tell). I have something of the same problem with _Saints_ that I have with _The Lion in Winter_: that there's a pretty strong modern psychological interpretation placed on a story that took place during a different time, when I think that kind of framework seems somewhat out of place. But both are (in my opinion) excellent works of art. _Saints_ (in my opinion) is truly ground-breaking, particularly in how it depicts Joseph Smith's life, though as Margaret and others have pointed out it's not primarily about his life. Still, I think the best compliment Card's work could receive would be if it stimulated a lot of other artists to present their own take on Joseph Smith's life... Jonathan Langford Speaking for myself, not the List jlangfor@pressenter.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jerry Tyner Subject: RE: [AML] Used LDS Books for Sale? Date: 30 Aug 2001 13:47:58 -0700 Can I get a date for this San Bernardino re-enactment? We live in Orange County, Ca. Jerry Tyner - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jacob Proffitt" Subject: RE: [AML] Priestcraft (was: Joseph Smith Story) Date: 30 Aug 2001 15:13:02 -0600 ---Original Message From: Barbara Hume > At 12:13 PM 8/28/01 -0600, you wrote: > >While I'm at it, I should probably define my use of the term > >"priestcraft". Priestcraft is a peculiarly LDS sin. The phenomenon > >involves members assuming more authority than they've been given and > >buttressing that authority with often vague calls to authority. > > I'd thought of the term as referring to any false claims to divine > authority. People like Jim Jones and that fellow in Waco and What's > -his-name Bakker exercise priestcraft. They tell people > stuff, tell them it > came from God, and then use their gullible followers for > their own ends. Well, strictly speaking, you're right. The thing is, at the heart of "the brethren said" is claiming that something came from God. Church authority comes from God. Assuming more church authority than you've been given is, at it's root, claiming erroneously to speak for God. Which is why I call it priestcraft. Jacob Proffitt - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: margaret young Subject: Re: [AML] Used LDS Books for Sale? Date: 30 Aug 2001 15:21:56 -0600 The biggest celebration will be on Oct. 25 (a Thursday). I think I have some publicity I can forward to the list. Let me look for it. If not, you can e-mail public affairs in Los Angeles. I'll get an address shortly. Jerry Tyner wrote: > Can I get a date for this San Bernardino re-enactment? We live in Orange > County, Ca. > > Jerry Tyner > > - > AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature > http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MGA Subject: Re: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 30 Aug 2001 15:49:39 -0600 > From: "Jacob Proffitt" > You have given a number of > examples of people who you think are over-suspicious. My caution is > that a) you judge them rather harshly for not having your same balance > (as I do when I call them nuts) and b) you generalize your experiences > with them to make up a majority. >=20 > Since your related experience is counter to my own, I disagree with your > statement that the majority of church members would reject an accurate > rendition (what a lovely word for art--rending is precisely right with > its multiple connotations of reduce, purify, and concentrate) of Joseph > Smith.=20 We'll have to agree to disagree. [snip] >> For instance, a wonderful woman who I've known for >> several years borrowed a copy of the 1995 TNT mini-series >> JOSEPH starring Ben Kingsly and Lesley Anne Warren. The >> acting and directing were first rate. The attention to >> historical accuracy was amazing. More than any other Biblical >> film that I've ever seen, I thought it was the most faithful >> to scripture. I have many non-member friends (in the arts and >> out) who feel pretty much the same way. However, this bright, >> articulate, active LDS friend didn't like it. She said it >> just didn't seem very faithful to the scriptures. That's her >> opinion and it goes without saying that she is entitled to it >> and should stick to it. I told her that I thought it was the >> most faithful dramatic adaptation I've yet to see of any >> Biblical story; that the dramatic embellishments--needed when >> dramatizing a sparse text such as the Bible--were few and >> could be totally justified by the Biblical text itself. >> I was interested in understanding how, in this >> Sister's view, the film JOSEPH was unfaithful to the >> scriptures. She finally admitted that "I really couldn't >> think of any examples...I guess, it just didn't seem like >> they {Jacob, Joseph) behaved very much like prophets." >=20 > I haven't seen the movie, so I have no idea what my own opinion of it > might be. However, I think that you need to be very careful about > judging her unfit to recognize faithful art just because she disagrees > with you about that movie. I never said that she was "unfit to judge the movie." In fact, I said that she was welcome to her opinion and should stand by it. In our discussion, however, I wanted to know what she found objectionable. She was unable to site anything--just her overall emotional reaction. Since one of art's purposes is to provoke an emotional reaction in the audience, her reaction is just as valid as mine or anyone else's. And it goes without saying that one work of art (especially if it is well done and effectively conveys the artist's sense of life) will provoke many contrasting emotional reactions i= n individuals. For the purpose of a discussion, however, I think it behooves as individual to examine their emotional reaction rationally. When we don't do this, I think that we aren't taking full advantage of the opportunity fo= r self-reflection that art presents. > of the TNT special, but I'm not sure that says anything at all about how > church members would receive an accurate story about Joseph Smith. >=20 As both Joseph's are reverenced by Church members as prophets, I think the case can give us some indication of how particular people may react to a dramatic or artistic portrayal of "the sacred." >> There is a tendency--a BIG TENDENCY--I believe, among many Church >> members to think that a prophet acts like a reserved, >> dignified, suit-and-tie, elderly American gentleman of the >> late 20th century. Of course, the facts are that the majority >> of prophets have not fit this stereotype...including the >> majority of the Church's founding prophets and apostles. And >> so LDS history in art has been reduced to the "sanatized" >> "historical revisionism" of THE WORK AND THE GLORY series. >> LDS audiences (it seems to >> me) demand the same thing that members of other minority >> groups (gay, ethnic, etc.): that the art appease any doubts >> they have regarding their affiliation with the group. These >> are simply my opinions based on my own experiences and >> observations. ROB LAUER >=20 > Well, I agree that we tend to want too much seriousness in our prophets. > We *do* as a culture tend to equate "called to preach God's word" with > "serious demeanor". But I think that cause and effect are a bit > transposed here. I think that we've been trained by our past art and > hagiographic history to expect seriousness. I think it reflects a lack > of trust by the historians and artists as much as anything else. I totally agree with you. > now, I think we have experienced two poles with hagiography on the one > hand and expos=E9 on the other. I'd love to see something that is > accurate without having an axe to grind. I agree. I get very frustrated when things have to be labeled either "pro-Mormon/pro-Church" or "anti-Mormon/anti-Church." In fact, now that I think about it, this very frustration was probably what moved to first emai= l in the response that got this whole discussion going. > hagiography and expos=E9, I don't fault members for hanging out in the > hagiography camp. But that doesn't necessarily mean that hagiography is > all we'll accept, it's just all we've been given. I think that the > reception of God's Army is proof of my opinion. We'll see if that bears > up when Dutcher releases his movie about Joseph Smith. >=20 I really pray that Richard is true to his vision. I think that the Joseph Smith story is the "property" (for lack of a better word) of all AMERICANS. If he had not lived and had not done what he did, we would live in a very different country in many respects. Certainly the history of the settling o= f the West would be considerably different. (Note: I remember in 1978 reading--of all things-- a PEOPLE magazine article on the 100 most influential Americans. Joseph Smith was, I believe, in the top one third an= d was labeled the most influential religious leader that America ever produced.) As one who joined the Church, left the Church and then rejoined eleven year= s later, I never stopped feeling that Mormon history was a very important par= t of MY history (as an American) regardless of my religious affiliation. This is why I personally am completely committed to creating "Mormon Art." I regard such a thing as a subset of "American Art." [Rob Lauer] - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jeff Savage" Subject: [AML] Fiction in LDS Pubs Date: 30 Aug 2001 15:01:24 -0700 OK, so I just got my September Era and there were the various contest winners, including (drum roll please) FICTION! So does the new policy do away with the teen fiction contest in the future. -Jeff - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MGA Subject: Re: [AML] Rob Lauer Date: 30 Aug 2001 16:17:38 -0600 This is an answer to Andrew Hall's inquiry regarding my career since publication of DIGGER and THE BEEHIVE STATE: (I hope it's not too boring.): I've been earning my living writing, directing and acting since leaving BYU in 1982. When BEEHIVE STATE was produced and published in 1988, I was in my fifth year as Artistic Director of The Olde Theatre Company--a municipally funded theatre in Portsmouth, Va. In 1990 my play TOM AND PENNY'S YARD PARTY (a satire on religious TV) won the Best Play Award at the Deep South Writers Conference. That same year, the conference awarded my one-act THE CHURCH STREET FANTASY their Paul T. Nolan Award. I moved to New York City in 1991, where I continued acting, writing and directing. Most of my work was in regional theatre from 1991-1994. I acting in several national theatre tours between 1996 and 1996. In 1996 I was hired as Artistic Director of NYC production company, Sail Productions, Inc. For this company I wrote and directed several children's musical theatre pieces for national tours. I wrote the book and lyrics, while collaborating with three very talented LDS composers: Matt Bean (a former BYU room-mate and one of the most talented men I know); Lisa DeSpain ( another brilliant young LDS composer living in NYC); Dan Hoeye (a member of the LDS/Deseret records recording group ELEMENOP [pronounced: L-M-N-O-P). Together we wrote musical versions of THE SNOW QUEEN, THE ELVES & THE SHOEMAKER, THE EMPEROR'S NEW CLOTHES, GULLIVER'S TRAVELS, THE UGLY DUCKLING and the only authorized stage version of Dodie Smith's THE 101 DALAMTIONS. Sail Production continues to tour these shows annually, so they've probably played in your region of the country. Currently I am ending a contract as production manager and writer for MGA FIlms, Inc., a documentary film company in Fort Collins, Co. I am currently being interviewed for two jobs: one with Florida Studio Theatre, and the other with New Dominion Pictures--which produces several series for the Discovery Channel and The Learning Channel. (Say a little prayer for me! Either job would be great!) Recently Ifinished the first draft of my first children's novel: THE NAKED EMPEROR OF NIL. I'm also working on what I call "my 'Mormon-Gone-With-the-Wind,'" novel. The working title is DESERET. The theme is that of the collective versus the individual. It is set in Utah Territory between 1886 and 1888. The plot revolves around the five people: a 32-year-old-Danish convert, his wife, a young woman he takes as a second wife, a mid-wife and a young Federal Marshal. All are caught in the middle of the Federal Government's crusade against polygamy and the Church. I'm also in the beginning stages of writing a youth oriented LDS novel about one of the "Stripling Warriors." In 1997 I was called as an Associate Director of the Church's Hill Cumorah Pageant. I still serve in that calling, so every year I get to have what I call "Christmas in July." That experience has been one of the most rewarding artistic experiences in my life. Thanks for your interest in what I've been up to all these years! ROB LAUER - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: Re: [AML] An Iconography of Our Own Date: 30 Aug 2001 18:00:09 -0600 Don't forget the New Era shorthand of putting facial hair on young men to indicate that they're rebellious/from the wrong side of the tracks/non-members. Eric D. Snider - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Thom Duncan Subject: Re: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 30 Aug 2001 18:05:23 -0600 "Eric R. Samuelsen" wrote: > Okay, it's been done. OSC's Saints and Sam Taylor's Nightfall at Nauvoo. Saints isn't about Joseph Smith, it's about a fictional female character who sort of tangentially resembles Eliza R. Snow. Nightfall at Nauvoo, I haven't read in awhile; anyone remember it? The novel's POV is rather god-like as I recall. Watching the events from a distance. I don't remember too much in-depth characterization. Joseph's death at Carthage read like a news story. Thom - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Todd Petersen" Subject: [AML] Back on the List Date: 30 Aug 2001 18:36:53 -0600 This is Todd Robert Petersen signing back on. =20 I've been doing things like finishing a dissertation, getting a job (at = Southern Utah University), and oh, getting married. Consequently, not = much time left on the books to kibbutz with the Momonati. I hold office hours now (read, spends a lot of time twiddling his thumbs), = so I have some time and I'm interested to see what's developed and if = we've gotten into the R-rated movie argument again. It's also nice to be out of Oklahoma and in a Utah town where the temple = is a replica of the Globe theater. I had a marvelous conversation with = Margaret Young and her husband, Bruce, on the lawn here in Cedar during a = greenshow. I had forgotten how much I miss conversations like the ones on = this list. -- Todd Robert Petersen - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Major Productions Subject: Re: [AML] Letters and Mormon Literature Date: 30 Aug 2001 20:32:05 -0500 > > What do you all think of the epistolary novel genre? I'm a list lurker, but have truly enjoyed eavesdropping! As for the epistolary novel form, my writing partner and I wrote a novel about 15 years ago (set during the Jacobite Rebellion of '45)--just as kind of a writing exercise--and it was so much fun, we wrote another one set in the American Colonies in 1767. Now we're working on a third, set during the war of 1812--all pre-Restoration, of course, but we may work our way up to the mid-1800's one of these years. (I figure about five years per project....) With regard to the Joseph Smith thread, I read a book last week called something like THE MESSAGE (I'm getting old! Can't remember the author!) and it was very thought-provoking. The guy talks about being in a coma for several days and spending time in Paradise. He never comes out and says he's LDS, but you get a hint or two when he talks about temples and priesthood blessings. This was an intriguing topic to me, since some of my best friends are in Paradise! My mom read the book and was really touched by it. She pretty much begged me to read it--and I found portions of it moving, too, but I kept thinking, "This guy sure needs a good copy editor!" The typos distracted me (but maybe that's because I'm easily distracted) and when I was through with the book, I thought, "Wow! Profound message! Sure wish someone had corrected those galleys!" The point is (Yes, Virginia, there *is* a point!) that the message doesn't always have to be presented by perfect people. (Good thing, or there wouldn't be any messages being presented!) In fact, imperfect messengers probably rely more on the Spirit to fill in the gaps. I am profoundly moved by the fact that God can take flawed people who make big booboos on a regular basis and use them as a force for good in the world. Just like (I have to get this all out, because I may never come out of lurking again!--since you all are so much smarter and well-read than I am....) He can take the mistakes we make and still help us to wring something good out of them. Because He's God. So Joseph Smith wasn't perfect. Good! That means there's hope for me.... Robbin Olsen Major. - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Morgan Adair" Subject: [AML] Great Salt Lake Book Festival Date: 30 Aug 2001 22:40:43 -0600 >>> margaret_young@byu.edu 08/29/01 12:43PM >>> > >I just read a book called _The Ferry Woman_ written (by a guy)=20 Gerald Grimmett >I have not had time for reading other than research material, but=20 >needed to read _The Ferry Woman_ because I'll be on a panel with=20 >the author, and wanted to know what he'd done. Is this going to be at the Great Salt Lake Book Festival (Sept 22-23)? I = notice that Grimmett was on the schedule: http://www.utahhumanities.org/bookfestival/bookfestival.html=20 along with a bunch of other familiar names: Terry Tempest Williams, Tom = Lyon, Stephen Trimble, James Welch, Levi Peterson, John Bennion, Dennis = Clark, Linda Sillitoe, Alan Barnett, Martha Bradley, Carol Lynn Pearson, = Steve Siporin, David Lee, and on the list of writers "confirmed" to be in = attendance, Eugene England, whose attendance will guarantee that I'll be = there, too. MBA (Morgan B. Adair) - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cathy Wilson" Subject: [AML] Polygamy (was: Joseph Smith Story) Date: 31 Aug 2001 07:53:19 -0600 I firmly believe >that one's reaction to polygamy reveals far more about one's notions of the >sex act itself as either inherently good, inherently evil, amoral, etc Ah alas, my cranky subject. I think rather MY response to polygamy (and probably many women feel the same) has to do with one's sense of self as a woman and wife. I can't remember the name of the story by an actual plural wife, married, I think, to Smoot (_A Mormon Mother_?) who describes her husband taking a plural wife not long after her own marriage: "I wonder wherein I lacked that so quickly he sought another."). People who are married know that to grow in a marriage, people need absolute trust, confidence and giving up of one's sins and faults. Polygamy inherently creates distance and diminishing intimacy, by its very nature. As in _The Giant Joshua_, if the husband is not happy with one wife's responses and behavior, why, he can just go spend some time with another. I lived with a husband deeply committed to what I call "neo-polygamy," not to the point of marrying in this case but certainly to creating mutiple relationships. Imagine yourself as an approaching-middle-age mama with many many children, pregnant with yet another, bloated, slow, tired, overwhelmed, while your husband is enjoying the romantic rush of courting other women. I am fairly certain that early polygamous wives keenly felt this situation. Perhaps we might suggest that 19th century America didn't hold the model of marriage as an intimate, trusting committed relationship, but I think that won't hold much water. I think throughout the centuries, marriage and fidelity have been a fair constant. Sometimes you hear the argument that polygamy wasn't sexual or emotional but rather theological. I think if we are honest, we'll roll over laughing on that one. I spent a good deal of time, way back then in my neo-polygamy misery days, reading the Journal of Discourses for some comfort--didn't find much. I remember one quote (at this point I don't remember who said it but it's probably to the best): "Nothing puts a light in the eye or a spring in the step so much as taking a new, 16-year-old wife." Well, duh (as my kids would say). . . .I would guess today's neo-polygamists would concur on that one. Please note that I'm not addressing the theological issues of polygamy here. Hopefully bigger and stronger minds will deal with that one. Cathy (Gileadi) Wilson Editing Etc. 1400 West 2060 North Helper UT 84526 - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Subject: [AML] 3 Albums Releases Simultaneously Date: 30 Aug 2001 20:32:38 -0600 Hi folks, http://www.ucjournal.com/PageSpeed53/News/story/396500 This is the URL for an article and photos about simultaneous album (CD) releases by my mother, Janice Kapp Perry, my sister, Lynne Perry Christofferson, and yours truly. Thanks, Steve -- skperry@mac.com - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Grant Subject: Re: [AML] Joseph Smith Story Date: 31 Aug 2001 09:41:28 -0600 I wrote: >>I will be satisfied if the Mormon intelligentsia uses the >>same degree of discretion, kindness, and understanding, in >>telling the Prophet Joseph's story as it does in telling >>Brother England's. D. Michael Martindale replied: >Holy moley, I wouldn't! Gene England just died. Eulogizing the >life of a recently deceased person is always done with >discretion, kindness, and understanding. It's the appropriate >thing to do at a time like that. Does that mean that what's being said about Brother England now is more a matter of ritual than of truthtelling? Is anyone planning on telling us the real warts-and-all story in the near future? How about the stories of other Mormon intellectuals? Will, for example, somebody be telling D. Michael Quinn's story the same way Quinn told Evan Stephens'? [...] >a novel exploring a historical character that used the >"eulogy" approach would be absolutely awful! In a recent thread, I mentioned the Thomas More of _A Man for All Seasons_ and the C.S. Lewis of _Shadowlands_ as examples of interesting "good" characters, and you said that they weren't technically "good". I didn't notice many warts in those characterizations, but I take it that you wouldn't put those stories in the absolutely awful eulogy category, is that right? Margaret Young said: >I'm wondering about the implication of the word "discretion" >in Chris Grant's post. Scriptures and Church leaders use the word to denote a virtue. That's how I intended to use it. [...] >if someone were to write a biography of Gene England, they >would surely have to include his moments of frustration with >the institutional Church. As I see it, telling us how Elder So-and-so was mean to Brother England may give us the warts-and-all story of Elder So-and-so but not of Brother England. The warts-and-all story of Brother England would need to show us *his* warts (if he had any). [...] >I get very nervous about the suggestion that we use >"discretion" in telling any of the Church leaders' stories. >Couldn't that lead to more iconizing and conscious censorship? As Elder Oaks has taught us, strengths can become weaknesses. That does not mean that those strengths aren't strengths when exercised in moderation. [...] >I know that Gene England would not want to be put on a >pedastol. I can't imagine anyone would. But clearly there are people who would like their stories to be told with discretion. That suggests that using discretion and putting people on pedestals are not necessarily the same thing. Chris Grant grant@math.byu.edu - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm