From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V1 #68 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Tuesday, June 13 2000 Volume 01 : Number 068 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 20:20:28 -0600 From: "Jim and Laurel Brady" Subject: Re: [AML] Race and Culture in LDS Lit. > A suburban Mormon generally doesn't think about African Americans. I'm > sorry but this is true. the general body of the church in America, at least, has a real hard time with > folks who aren't white And, from what I've read in journals, etc., has had, for several generations. I have to wonder if this is more pronounced or evident here in Utah, and attributable to the long-standing Priesthood issue. I grew up elsewhere, but now live in Utah. There weren't any AA's in the area I lived in--none in my elementary or junior high schools and exactly one in my 1200+ student body high school. When I moved here, I was surprised to discover prejudice and condescending attitudes, particularly among the generation born in the first third of the century. Now that I have three AA children of my own, I am trying to understand better the world they will grow up in and I am hopeful some of these attitudes will die out and be replaced by a more accepting generation. (A sure way to test a person's prejudice level--inform them they're going to be a grandpa again, and this time, the child will not be white. Yeeeeoooooow!) It is interesting to study journals and pioneer records and see how much prejudice there was among early church members, who were faithful and good people in practically every other regard. I suppose it's because not that much time had passed since slavery and reconstruction and all the difficulties of the time period. Which doesn't excuse it, by any means, but perhaps explains it. Perhaps this IS an area our LDS literature should explore...exploring the little (and big) ways we exhibit our biases, whether they are based on skin color, ethnicity, or even economic class. > It has been my contention for a long time that if there were ever a black > member of The Twelve, one-third of the members in Utah, Idaho, and Arizona > would apostasize within a half hour of the announcement. Hmmm--wouldn't this make an interesting experiment. Or an interesting book.... Laurel S. Brady - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 00:47:18 -0600 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Race and Culture in LDS Lit. Todd Robert Petersen wrote: > It has been my contention for a long time that if there were ever a black > member of The Twelve, one-third of the members in Utah, Idaho, and Arizona > would apostasize within a half hour of the announcement. Would I come across as calloused if I said, would it be such a loss if that happened? As I understand my scriptural history, cycles occur where periods of calm and growth are followed by a period of culling, where only the truly converted withstand trials that arise, and the rest fall away. Such a culling happened, for example, when Christ started preaching that his disciples needed to eat his flesh and drink his blood. "It is an hard saying," said the unconverted. "Who can hear it?" And they "followed him no more." (Quotes are not guaranteed to be accurate--I didn't look them up.) We've had a fairly calm period of growth for some time now, and it will probably last for a while longer. But does anyone doubt that a period of tribulation is ahead for the Church? Weak testimonies and simplistic worldviews are not likely to see a person through such times. For the third time, from a third angle, I'm suggesting that ignoring the subtleties and dark sides of life in our literature is doing a disservice to our audience, and would constitute a "sin" on our part. People grow and strengthen through adversity, and literature can provide a very safe version of adversity by challenging entrenched but questionable mindsets. Much safer than letting people wait to experience the real thing and then falter because they weren't strong enough. - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 01:27:16 -0600 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Divorce in LDS lit. Larry Jackson wrote: > But, since I only had to > handle one of them, how on earth do I write that story > without destroying a few lives? Fictionalize it. Use the people and the circumstances as a starting point, then develop everything into a fictional account which becomes a separate story all its own. - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 12:43:27 -0600 From: Steve Perry Subject: Re: [AML] Re: Race and Culture in LDS Lit. > From: Margaret Young > Subject: [AML] Re: Race and Culture in LDS Lit. > > I think at least one more question needs to be added to > the temple recommend interview: "Do you harbor in your heart any dislike or > suspicion of your brothers and sisters of color?" "...or without color." :-) s. - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 15:47:07 -0400 From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: [AML] RE: Race and Culture in LDS Lit. I have seen racism and "culturalism" in my own ward here in Ohio. People just have a hard time relating to people who are different. Members have a tendency to judge-look at someone's circumstances and make judgements as to their worthiness. Converts who pray differently because of their backgrounds are often subtly ostracized. People who live on one side of the ward and are of different economic background get treated differently. Quite honestly I don't think most of these members see this in themselves. They are not consciously choosing to relate to others in this way. This is racism, culturalism, economicism-what ever ism it is that we use to divide ourselves from one another. Is it worse in or out of the church? I really have no idea. I believe that to those who perceive a problem within the church it may be more glaring. We expect more of members of the church than we do of non-members. I remember teaching a seminary lesson and using a story from our local paper about kids sleeping in the bathtub because of the possibility of a bullet coming through the walls. My students live 20 minutes from the area the article discusses and couldn't relate at all-didn't really believe it was true. During another lesson a girl was expressing how she just couldn't "deal" with people who had this problem or that. I remember trying to explain to her that as people joined the church from all different backgrounds she not only needed to be able to "deal" with it, but to love them and help them find a place amongst us. They need to hear the stories told. I need to hear the stories told. I personally am a fan more of non-fiction than fiction. However, if the fiction can reach us in some way, and help us to see ourselves and the world around us in a different light, I'm all for it. Tracie Laulusa - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 14:25:28 -0700 From: Barbara@techvoice.com (Barbara R. Hume) Subject: Re: [AML] Mormon Lit for Women (was: Divorce in LDS lit.) > I wonder, >Barbara--do you think this kind of lifestyle is actually over-promoted in >Mormon novels, or does it just feel like it because you dislike it so much? >(I don't read enough of this sort of novel to know.) I think that there are so many of these simply because it's the background of so many people who write Mormon fiction, and therefore it's what they prefer to write about. I also think it's because of the "should's" inherent in the Mormon culture (not in the gospel) about what we ought to want. > >I think I see your ultimate point, though--that a good portion of what is >published as Mormon fiction is geared toward an audience that doesn't >include you, but implies that it *should* include you. Is that an accurate >guess? I'm certainly not saying that it's anyone's responsibility to write the kind of book I want to read. I already know where to find the kind of book that I enjoy. I've recently read several fine novels that dealt with themes of redemption and forgiveness and acceptance, and they were not LDS novels. They dealt with some pretty dark aspects of human nature, but all had what the romance genre calls the "HEA" ending--happily ever after. And it has to be what makes the characters happy according to their natures, not what an organization tells us should make everyone happy. Of course, like many on this list, if I want a certain kind of novel I can jolly well write it myself! et me speculate a little further: in my last ward, I was more or >less responsible for any book reviews we did in homemaking (back when that's >what it was called) and in choosing titles, the majority opinion was that >books were for escapism. In examining what they liked, it was obvious to me >that their favorite books had characters whose general attitudes and beliefs >were congruent with theirs, regardless of the historical period the book was >set in. In other words, they wanted to read about women who had experiences >like theirs, or women who had experiences that *could* be like theirs. . . it suggests to me >that one of the biggest markets for LDS fiction is this kind of woman, who >doesn't much care about things like well-fleshed-out characters because >that's not what they're reading for (and possibly because they're >unconsciously putting themselves in the place of the protagonist). Could be. I read for escapism, too, but that's why I do NOT want the characters and settings to be like the reality around me. I have to be able to approve of the protagonists' worldviews, or at least to accept them, but sometimes if those characters start in a very different place from where I am, I learn something from them. That never hurts. Well, not too much. barbara hume - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 13:38:10 -0700 From: Rob Pannoni Subject: Re: [AML] Divorce in LDS lit. Todd Robert Petersen wrote: > > I'm not sure that correcting the tendency of LDS writers to look away from > that which is damaged in our culture means to wallow in it. I think of the > great literature of the last few hundred years. Does Dostoyevski wallow? > Steinbeck? Faulkner? To pay serious artistic attention to the problems of > a culture can be one way of helping that culture to heal or restore itself. > This is a point with which I wholeheartedly agree. At the same time, I would have to concede that artistic imperfections can mar good intent. A few months back I saw the movie _The General's Daughter_, which is based on a true story of a female army officer who was brutally gang-raped while in basic training. Her father, a general, was embarassed by the incident and swept it under the rug instead of standing up for his daughter and trying to prosecute the guilty parties. The movie was intended to hold the candle up to a terrible attrocity. But the rape was portrayed so graphically that there was a certain voyeuristic quality about it--it inspired a sort of morbid curiosity instead of just repulsion. So what could have been a strong statment against the evils of a society that tolerates the victimization of women became a muddled, sensationalistic movie mired in the same societal ambivalence that it was supposedly attacking. It's a judgement call, but I would characterize this as a case of "wallowing." I'm not arguing against the technique of realism. I have seen graphic portrayals that bring home their point quite effectively. But in some cases, this approach can go awry. And when it does, I think criticism is justified. - -- Rob Pannoni Rapport Systems http://www.rapport-sys.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 15:50:16 -0600 From: "Clark Goble" Subject: RE: [AML] Divorce in LDS lit. ___ Jacob ___ | We are *not* divorced from God. We didn't break a covenant | to come here. ___ Divorced is frequently used relative to our relationship with God - although admittedly more in non-Mormon literature. However each of us covenanted to obey God (Abr 3:25). Each of us have sinned and come short of the glory of God. (Rom 3:23) While we do not fall because of Adam's sin, Adam and Eve are archetypal of the fall of each individual. There is not a person reading this who has not broken their covenants to one degree or an other. Were it not so we'd have no need of Christ. ___ Todd ___ | I'm not sure that correcting the tendency of LDS writers to look | away from that which is damaged in our culture means to wallow | in it. ___ Mormon writing of all sorts tends to a sort of extreme dualism. We are on one side of an issue or the other with little ground in between. This is especially true in non-fiction LDS writing, but is often true in all other sorts as well. Of course there are exceptions, but the expectation all too often is to take a side in a debate. Like you I think we can honestly deal with the difficult aspects of life without wallowing in sin or depression. - -- Clark Goble --- d.c.g@att.net ----------------------------------- - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 22:49:47 -0400 From: "Kent S. Larsen II" Subject: Re: [AML] Prouxl and Turrow Chris is right. Its solely on the basis of their work including Mormon characters. At least for the books included in the news, we use quite a broad definition of Mormon Literature, including literature, by, for and about Mormons. Kent >>>> Darlene Young 06/01 5:03 PM >>> >I've been reading back issues of Irreantum and I saw >Scott Turrow and Annie Prouxl mentioned in the "news" >section. Could anyone tell me what connection these >authors have to Mormon letters? Are they LDS? (And >is this Annie Prouxl of "Shipping News"?) > >===== >Darlene Young > Join my Mormon email lists! To join send a message to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com In the body of the message write: subscribe Mormon-news News and links to news about Mormons, Mormonism and the Church. Mormon-humor Jokes and amusing stories about Mormons and Mormonism. Mormon-index Make queries about and find out about Mormon resources. LDSClerks Discussion for LDS Church Ward/Stake Clerks/Exec. Secretaries LDSPrimary Discussion about the Primary Organization. The following list is available through egroups: http://www.egroups.com/ NYArea-LDS-News - News about the LDS Church and Members in the New York City area. - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 23:00:26 -0400 From: "Kent S. Larsen II" Subject: Re: [AML] Where's our LDS Pulitzer prize winner? Mormonism has had at least a couple Pulitzer Prize winners -- but not exactly for literature. In 1972, Jack Anderson won the Pulitzer Prize for National Reporting, In 1991, Laurel Thatcher Ulrich won the Pulitzer Prize for History. There may be others, these are the two I am aware of. Kent Join my Mormon email lists! To join send a message to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com In the body of the message write: subscribe Mormon-news News and links to news about Mormons, Mormonism and the Church. Mormon-humor Jokes and amusing stories about Mormons and Mormonism. Mormon-index Make queries about and find out about Mormon resources. LDSClerks Discussion for LDS Church Ward/Stake Clerks/Exec. Secretaries LDSPrimary Discussion about the Primary Organization. The following list is available through egroups: http://www.egroups.com/ NYArea-LDS-News - News about the LDS Church and Members in the New York City area. - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 09:26:57 -0700 From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] Movie Ratings When I was working at the Ensign, another (very conservative, orthodox) = editor wrote an article about that youth pamphlet (what's it called--For = the Strength of Youth? Especially for Youth?). In the article, she had a = part all about R-rated movies. I went to the pamphlet and searched it for = any specific mention of R-rated movies, and there were none. What it did = say was something like: avoid immoral or objectional movies. But this lady = was so orthodox and conservative that she had the R-rated thing absolutely = hammered into her brain and didn't listen to me, the liberal, worldly = staff member. The brethren are not hitting on the R-rated standard very much anymore, = but more on pornography. To give members such a formula as "no R-rated = movies" implies for many that any PG or PG-13 movie is OK, when many of = those are far less moral than many R-rated movies. Pres. Monson's taste = for PG-13 James Bond movies is less defensible, I think, than another = person's appreciation for R-rated movies that honestly address complex = adult themes with some useful moral bearing (Dead Man Walking, Secrets and = Lies, Wonder Boys, High Fidelity, The Insider, Schindler's List, the list = goes on and on of morally edifying movies that are rated R). Another reason for the backing off from R-rated specifications by the = brethren is that we are an international church and the R rating is = American. In Australia, our mission pres. occasionally let us watch movies = on a P-day (I remember a 9-movie video marathon once on one of those = days). I don't remember exactly what the Aussie rating system was, but = after I got home from my mission I realized I'd seen a lot of movies that = were rated R in America but only the equivalent of PG-13 in Australia. (I = think there was a large "M" for mature category in Australia that took in = most of America's PG-13s and Rs, and the "R" in Australia was more like = NC-17 here.) Many times movies that were rated R in America were viewed on = the buses from Melbourne stake centers to the Sydney temple. Now I have to say, as I always do in this discussion, that it is quite = possible to get burned by seeing R-rated movies indiscriminately. There is = a lot of trash under that rating, and each person has the responsibility = to read reviews and talk to trusted fellow viewers. This is one of those topics that fits the Liahona vs. Iron Rod paradigm of = Church membership. Some people like to have everything spelled out for = them, others like to have guidance but use their own brains to make their = way through life. You can keep your eyes closed and hold to the rod, but = to follow the directions of the Liahona you have to keep your eyes open. Chris Bigelow * * * * * * Interested in novels, stories, poems, plays, and films by, for, or about = Mormons? Check out IRREANTUM magazine at www.xmission.com/~aml/irreantum.ht= m. - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 09:56:11 -0700 From: "Christopher Bigelow" Subject: Re: [AML] Multiple Points of View Question: I have a novel in progress with four main characters. I am a = believer in one-POV-per-chapter. I was going to give three of the = characters one chapter each at the beginning and then give the rest of the = novel to the fourth character, but now I'm thinking I may give each of the = three at least one more chapter each later in the novel. But part of me = wonders if I'm rotating POVs, should I do it consistently and fairly, = rather than still giving the fourth character several chapters in a row = and the other three only 2 chapters or so each throughout the book? What = do y'all think? I'm reading a book right now--"This Is the Place," by Peter Rock--that = seems like a real botch as far as POV. It usually reads like third-person, = except once in a while the narrator comes back on the scene in first = person--yet his narration includes all manner of information that only an = omniscient narrator could know. I'm reserving final judgment until the end = of the novel, in case this narrator turns out to have some kind of psychic = connection with the other characters that gives him omniscience, but I = doubt it will turn out that way. It's a disappointing book, actually. Chris Bigelow * * * * * * Interested in novels, stories, poems, plays, and films by, for, or about = Mormons? Check out IRREANTUM magazine at www.xmission.com/~aml/irreantum.ht= m. - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:20:36 -0700 From: Rob Pannoni Subject: Re: [AML] Divorce in LDS lit Annette Lyon wrote: > > Somehow this thread has gotten my ire up a bit. (AML connection IS coming, > but you'll have to wade through my soap box first). It began with Rob > Pannoni's comment about marriages that simply become stagnant, lacking in > personal growth, where both parties sadly realize they are at the end of the > road. What ever happened to enduring to the end? Covenants don't include a > clause that say, when you reach a plateau, feel free to call it off. I don't want to minimize the value of covenants, but I do feel it is important to acknowledge that covenants are based on one's best knowledge and belief at the time they are made. I dare say if someone made a "covenant" through baptism to be a part of the Baptist faith before encountering the LDS church, you wouldn't suggest they "endure to the end" with their prior covenant. If inspiration can play a role in creating a marriage, then I see no reason to deny God the power to inspire a couple to end a marriage. If we could live our lives simply by following a static set of rules, there would be no need for continuing revelation. As Jung said, the test of one's faith isn't when God tells you to do something everyone agrees is right. It's when God tells you to do something everyone agrees is wrong. The more I think about it, the more I think this would make an interesting story. The story isn't about giving up. It's about having the courage to follow one's inspiration even when human logic and culture don't support your actions. Unfortunately, I don't think I'm skilled enough to write it. But I don't see why it would be inherently unrealistic. The scriptures are full of examples of God asking people to do things that make little sense from a human perspective. - -- Rob Rapport Systems http://www.rapport-sys.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 12:29:18 -0500 From: "Todd Robert Petersen" Subject: Re: [AML] Movie Ratings A student of mine once wrote a research paper on the rating system. Once I read it and saw his source material, I decided that the rating system is so seriously flawed that is must in some cases be ignored. A) It is racist. X amount of nudity (pun intended) with white actors often results in a lower rating than the same amount of nudity for actors of color. B) Comic violence is given more slack than historical violence (i.e. Rush Hour versus Schindler's List). C) The makes of the South park picture sumbitted their film and got an NC-17 then added more offensive material, resumitted it one or more times and came out with an R-rating. I must admit that I watch very little these days, not because of content that might be objectionable in the standard way, but because most films insult my intelligence. I do rent John Sayles and Woody Allen films, which are quite good, for the most part. Neil Labute also keeps me engaged. I have liked Slingblade, The Apostle, and other small films that treat me like an adult with a normal testosterone level. Todd Robert Petersen - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:54:29 -0700 From: eedh Subject: Re: [AML] Race and Culture in LDS Lit. Jim and Laurel Brady wrote: > "And, from what I've read in journals, etc., has had, for several > generations. I have to wonder if this is more pronounced or evident here in > Utah, and attributable to the long-standing Priesthood issue." I think this is a much bigger human issue than a Utah one. I grew up in the midwest and while there weren't many African Americans in my small town, they were just about the only minority group I had any experience with. Then I moved out west to go to Ricks and BYU. I was stunned and appalled at the way the American Indians were perceived. I had grown up thinking of them as a proud, noble people. When I was a child, I had gone to a play and watched how the white people had driven the Indians off their lands. I remember crying, ashamed because I was white. I came out west with this vision of the proud, noble American Indians in my head. The first American Indian I saw was standing on a street corner in Salt Lake City. A girl in my ward was from southern Utah, near a reservation, and she explained to me how American Indians were regarded there. After BYU, I ended up in the northwest. The first city we lived in had a large Asian population. I heard negative comments, then, about Asian people. (I still remember the owner of a fresh fruit market, complaining bitterly that she had to watch the Asian women carefully because they picked through all the cherries and only bought the best ones.) The Amish, Jewish people, the Mormons in Missouri. People with white skin have been victims of discrimination too. What is it in human nature that causes prejudice? Is it fear? Mistrust? We can't identify with someone unlike us? The overweight are discriminated against in our society. Stay-at-home mothers can't understand mothers who work outside the home. We have jokebooks about recognizing "rednecks." I was reading in the living room the other night, and my husband was watching a basketball game on television. The crowd began screaming and I looked up at the screen. I watched the huge, sweaty players loping up and down the court for a couple minutes, then said with disgust, "What is it that people find so attractive about them?" I looked down at the cover of the book I was reading, at the photo of a poet and English professor. Give me a man with a book over a basketball any day, I thought. Now, I know in my head that athletes can be intelligent. My brother teaches high school English and he coaches the basketball team. He's an intelligent, thoughtful man and he's very skilled at basketball. So why did I react with such bitterness against the basketball players on the television? Why is it that deep inside, against all reason, I believe that English professors are infinitely more attractive than athletes? Fear? Mistrust? I don't know where prejudice comes from, but I suspect we all have it in one form or another. Beth Hatch - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 13:43:11 -0600 From: "Payne Family" Subject: Re: [AML] Movie Ratings It would be interesting for me to see some actual figures on ratios of "R"s to "PG"s, etc. I appreciate Thom Duncan's research into one aspect of the whole argument ("what Prophets have said") and I wonder if other aspects could be quantified as well. A few years ago (4?) I caught a short presentation on way late-night T.V. that Michael Medved gave to a group of college film students. I'm not presuming that his figures are authoritative by any means (I suspect he's got an axe to grind) but he said that 60 percent of mainstream cinema is rated R, but that the PG's and G's (excluding PG-13's) collectively outperform R's two-to-one (*not* just proportionately, if I remember right). This certainly doesn't deal with the artistic merit of films in any way (and I might be remembering wrong, and he might be up in the night as far as his figures are concerned), but it'd be interesting to know. Eric Snyder might be able to best get his hands on some actual numbers. As for myself, there's only one recent idea that has provided *me* with any kind of freedom and control in my film-going life, and it's that (though I believe with y'all that art in many forms can and must enhance the life of every person ever born) regardless of ratings, I don't think there's any such thing, really, as a "must-see." That's having been duly affected by "Schindler's List," and duly perplexed by "Pokemon." - -Sam Payne - ---------- - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V1 #68 *****************************