From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V1 #1010 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Friday, March 21 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1010 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 17:05:23 -0800 From: "Jeff Needle" Subject: RE: [AML] AML-List Moderator Practices I haven't said anything yet on this subject, so here goes: I also think Jonathan does a good job as moderator. I, for one, would not have the patience to put up with people like myself who continue to send things to the list that were supposed to be sent to individuals. The fingers sometimes move faster than the brain. If I had my choice, I would choose unmoderated. This list is moderated; it may be the best of many choices. The only question that remains is, Is the moderator a jerk? Jonathan is manifestly not. Sent with appreciation by Jeff Needle, who at one time was a member of a list whose moderator was a first-class jerk. - ---------------- Jeffrey Needle jeff.needle@general.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 18:19:21 -0700 From: Barbara Hume Subject: Re: [AML] The Fictional Mormon Male At 08:09 AM 3/18/03 -0800, you wrote: >I believe this anti-masculine trend in LDS fiction is just a reflection of >a greater trend in our culture. For generations, the church was accused of >suppressing women's freedom and growth. We were seen, and STILL are seen >by many, as a male-dominated culture with few opportunities for women to >progress. > >The Church has worked hard to overcome this reputation. I believe we are >in the middle of an over-compensation. I think this is true. People in general can't seem to simply move from a lopsided model to a reasonable center--the pendulum always swings too far in the other direction first. My 38-year-old son tells me often that the current culture discriminates against young males, but my experience has been with discrimination against no-longer-young-and-beautiful females. Yet, I do not envy men the road they have to walk. I think that today's women give them mixed signals. We say we want sensitivity and a willingness to talk about stuff, but then we get all dry-mouthed and weak-kneed at the sight of rippling muscles. We definitely do not want to be dominated or treated as inferior beings, but we are not attracted to wimpiness. What we have here, reflected in our literature, is a case of PC-ness run amok. Nobody wants to read about weak, spineless women, but I don't think that male characters have to lose their masculine strength to make room for powerful female characters. In some current novels (but not LDS ones) I'm seeing female characters, supposedly sympathetic characters, who are bad-tempered, ill-mannered, hostile, and foul-mouthed. I think the male characters should just walk out on them--but they don't. In the romance writing community, we talk a lot about alpha males and beta males. Each type has its own adherents. But it's interesting to note that we often say something along the lines of "I just adored him in the book, but I wouldn't want to live with him in real life." I guess it all comes back to Freud's question: "What do women want?" Good luck on trying to figure that out, guys. barbara hume - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 18:08:20 -0700 From: "Clark Goble" Subject: RE: [AML] Elizabeth Smart ___ Ronn ___ | As some people have asked, though, where was that God of | miracles in the days following the abduction when Elizabeth | was "camping out" in the hills above her home and the | searchers came close enough for her to hear them calling | her name? ___ There's actually a lot of literature explaining this. The most oft quoted parable I can think of is the guy hanging on the cliff asking to be rescued. He prays and sees a helicopter fly by. The helicopter asks if he needs rescued and he says, "no, God is going to rescue me." Of course he falls. In heaven he asks God why he didn't rescue him. God says, "well, I sent you a helicopter." There are lots of variations on this theme. Put in the Elizabeth Smart story, we had people led to yards of where she was and she didn't do much. We had her in the midsts of hundreds of people at parties in Utah. We had her kept in Utah. Perhaps God did his part? That's not to discount what some are terming brainwashing. However brainwashing is often taken to be very overstated as a real psychological phenomena. (The recent media frenzy notwithstanding) Yes there is psychological trauma. And yes strong people can make bad choices appear persuasive. But by the same token God can't force anyone to do anything either. For all I know he was inspiring many people to question the girl. If she denies being Elizabeth Smart, what can God do? ___ Kim ___ | I have to add my two cents about the "live" coverage. The | questions asked by reporters were inane and embarrassing, not | to mention repetitive. Do media people not *listen* to the | answers or do they consider themselves clever lawyer-types | who will trip up an interviewee with reguritated and restated | questions? ___ Remember that a big chunk of the media is television. Television when asking questions often cares less about the *information* than about a sound bite. So they'll often ask a question again if they didn't get a nice simple sound bite they can put on the evening news. Also often they are writing or thinking of a question and don't hear (or remember fully) what other people have asked. Heavens, even I re-ask questions when trying to get information. Most reporters are also trained to ask questions they know they won't get answers for just in case the interviewed person screws up and says more than they ought. Even if it only happens 5% of the time that can help reporters a great deal. You'll notice in several of the press conferences with apologetic reporters sometimes prefacing their question with, "I know you probably can't answer this but I have to ask. . ." [Clark Goble] - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 18:17:56 -0700 From: "Clark Goble" Subject: RE: [AML] The Fictional Mormon Male ___ Jacob ___ | One of the effects of the gospel is to mix the genders. The | gospel teaches men to acquire feminine attributes (love, | compassion, mercy) and it also teaches women to acquire male | attributes (leadership/hierarchical relationships, non-consensus | communication, decisive action). ___ Hmm. I'm not sure I buy that, although I agree with elements. Take teaching women leadership and hierarchy. If the gospel teaches that then why are women cut off from it? Of course one could argue that the Relief Society was radically empowering in the 19th century. It took the structure for men and created a parallel order. Indeed some attacks on Mormons from masons were for giving women the Masonic orders. Most masonry at the time was for males only - although there was a form called adoptive masonry that was some additional rites for women. Some have speculated that Joseph may have been influenced by that kind of masonry in how he set things up for women. Still the progressive movements in the 19th century have hardly been pushed to give women leadership. Note that I'm not saying that the church is wrong in this - I'm sure they are listening to revelation. Just that saying the gospel teaches women leadership skills seems to presume a rather demeaning position for women outside of the gospel - a position that probably hasn't been true for some time. I also don't know if I'd agree that the gospel teaches women "male communication" and men "women communication." Even recognizing the different ways men and women communicate, I don't think I see the gospel teaching us to adopt the other's position. There isn't really any neo-feminism nor any kind of Jungian psychology. If anything the church emphasizes some traditional gender roles but ties them to responsibility rather than necessarily how we deal with those responsibilities. (i.e. one can be a good mother and fulfill ones responsibilities without following stereotypical female communication styles) I'm not sure I buy what you label male and female attributes. Once again it sounds a tad too Jungian for my tastes. [Clark Goble] - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 21:29:48 EST From: RichardDutcher@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] The Fictional Mormon Male In an earlier post which I cannot retrieve for some strange reason, one of you (a woman, if I remember correctly) mentioned the male instinct to "spread seed." So I'm adding to that thought as it relates to the "Woman/boy model"... Here's an interesting possibility: if we accept that men possess a powerful natural instinct to "spread seed" rather than enter into a life-long monogamous relationship, could it be that these domesticated males must endow their mates, even the entire female gender, with near super-human qualities? In other words: conquered males, in order to retain their own self-worth, must elevate females to great heights and endow them with special, almost magical personalities and powers. After all, only very powerful creatures could tame man's natural inclinations. This may not hold true for all monogamous males, but it could function wonderfully as a psychological element in a fictional character. Or am I full of poo? Richard Dutcher - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 23:07:41 -0600 From: "Rose Green" Subject: RE: [AML] The Fictional Mormon Male >There are all sorts of stereotypes of this sort. Far too many are >repeated and retaught in our literature. There was an infamous book >from the late 70's called _Amazing Womanhood_ (or something like that). >Basically it was a "how to" manual for women to manipulate men. The title is "Fascinating Womanhood." A copy has been found in the possession of both my mother and my mother-in-law, and has provided endless hilarity in group readings. Some of the ideas are things like telling women to dress up in sailor suits and try to look/act like little girls, tossing their curls and pouting or something. This was supposed to make women more attractive to their husbands. I think my father-in-law's response to this was something like, "You've got to be kidding." Also, most of the "proof" of the efficacy of the theories was found in fictional characters of literature, and not in the lives of real human beings. To continue to tie this into Mormon lit, the author of this book (Helen Andelin) is (or at least was) LDS. Her husband, Aubrey Andelin, also wrote a follow-up book called "Man of Steel and Velvet." Highly recommended for those seeking comic relief in a world of responsability and rational, functioning relationships. Rose Green _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 18:10:39 -1100 From: Subject: [AML] Re: Elizabeth Smart There's an interesting essay in Salon.com about the Elizabeth Smart case. The author, Ian R. Williams, is apparently a former Mormon or an ethnic Mormon. His observations on Mormon women are just the opposite of how they've been described in our recent thread on "Fictional Mormon Males". Here's the link: The Church of Latter-day constraints By Ian R. Williams http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2003/03/18/smart/index.html If you can't read the whole article right away, sign up for a free "day pass" to Salon (in exchange for viewing one 15-second Web advertisement). Regards, Frank Maxwell Gilroy, California - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 00:32:21 EST From: RichardDutcher@aol.com Subject: [AML] Books on the Bedside Table I'm interested in hearing what you Mormon writers are reading at the moment,= =20 what novels you've enjoyed recently, and what novels you haven't enjoyed. It= =20 would be fun to get a quick snapshot of our collective reading. I'll go first. I'm currently half-way through John Fowles' THE MAGUS, and I'= m=20 enjoying it quite a bit. Last week I read POST OFFICE by Charles Bukowski.=20 The week before that: Graham Greene's THE HEART OF THE MATTER. I highly recommend all three. THE MAGUS has a section where one character,=20 Henrik, experiences a personal "face to face" meeting with God as two other=20 characters witness the event. Of course, the two witnesses don't see God,=20 they only see Henrik as he experiences God. It reminded me of when several=20 men watched Joseph Smith and Sydney Rigdon as they experienced the vision we= =20 now know as D&C Section 76. The other men didn't see Christ; they had to be=20 content with seeing Joseph's face as Joseph saw Christ. Interesting. It made me ponder many of the transcendent "historical" events=20 in our history. We have a tendency to make everything so physical, so down t= o=20 earth. I believe if any of us had been spying in the forest the morning that= =20 Joseph's first vision occurred, we would not have seen what Joseph saw. And=20 yet we would not have been able to deny that he experienced something.=20 Perhaps we would no longer require literal interpretations or physical proof= =20 of his visions, experiences, and "translations." We would be more content=20 with his flawed English descriptions of his indescribable metaphysical=20 experiences. The scene in THE MAGUS also reminded me of a similar scene where Bill=20 Paxton's character experiences a vision/visitation in my favorite film of=20 last year, "Frailty." (Rated R for "Required Viewing" for any Latter-Day=20 Saint wanting to make films).=20 A couple of great lines from THE MAGUS: "=E2=80=A6all cynicism masks a failure to cope - an impotence." Referring to Henrik's search for God: "To him all that was not the great=20 meeting (with God) was what the Buddhists call 'lilas' - the futile pursuit=20 of triviality." "Living is an eternal wanting more." "The human mind is more a universe than the universe itself." POST OFFICE employs a blue-collar first person narrator. A refreshing and=20 unusual voice. It's a fun novel and a quick read, and it ends with three=20 perfect sentences (which won't seem so perfect unless you read the rest of=20 the book first). If naughty words offend you, you'll probably want to skip=20 this one. But that would be a shame. Writers would surely benefit from=20 experiencing Bukowski's very human characters and his laid-back, earthy pros= e. THE HEART OF THE MATTER is a powerful novel about a good man, a Catholic, wh= o=20 makes some devastating choices. The writer, Graham Greene, weaves Catholic=20 images and ordinances into his story (a man after my own heart) in such a wa= y=20 that religion is inextricable from the character and the story. I empathized= =20 with the main character, and I came away from this book understanding more o= f=20 Catholic doctrine and psychology. If I were teaching Religion in Fiction 101= ,=20 this would be required reading.=20 So that's what I've been reading. How about the rest of you? Richard Dutcher - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 00:56:18 -0600 From: "Preston Hunter" Subject: [AML] Box Office Report Feb. 14 03 Feature Films by LDS/Mormon Filmmakers and Actors Weekend Box Office Report (U.S. Domestic Box Office Gross) Weekend of February 14, 2003 Report compiled by: LDSFilm.com [If table below doesn't line up properly, try looking at them with a mono-spaced font, such as Courier - Ed.] Natl Film Title Weekend Gross Rank LDS/Mormon Filmmaker/Actor Total Gross Theaters Days - --- ----------------------------- ----------- ----- ---- 21 Final Destination 2 638,273 1,036 45 A.J. Cook (2nd-billed actor) 45,619,162 59 The R.M. 30,376 20 45 Kurt Hale (writer/director) 576,909 John E. Moyer (writer) Dave Hunter (producer) Cody Hale (composer) Ryan Little (cinematographer) Actors: Kirby Heyborne, Will Swenson, Britani Bateman, Tracy Ann Evans Merrill Dodge, Michael Birkeland, Maren Ord, Leroy Te'o, Curt Dousett Wally Joyner, etc. 57 Shackleton's Antarctic Adventure 38,409 10 766 Scott Swofford (producer) 14,194,575 Reed Smoot (cinematographer) Sam Cardon (composer) Stephen L. Johnson (editor) 73 Cirque du Soleil: Journey of Man 11,722 3 1046 Reed Smoot (cinematographer) 15,066,856 74 Poolhall Junkies 9,604 9 17 554,711 85 Galapagos 3,676 3 1235 Reed Smoot (cinematographer) 13,965,758 95 Jack Weyland's Charly 1,719 4 171 Adam Anderegg (director) 787,803 Jack Weyland (book author) Janine Gilbert (screenwriter) Lance Williams (producer) Micah Merrill (producer, film editor) Tip Boxell (co-producer) Bengt Jan Jonsson (cinematographer) Aaron Merrill (composer) Actors: Heather Beers, Jeremy Elliott, Adam Johnson, Jackie Winterrose Fullmer, Diana Dunkley, Gary Neilson, Lisa McCammon, Randy King, Bernie Diamond, etc. 100 China: The Panda Adventure 675 1 598 Reed Smoot (cinematographer) 3,003,170 HERE COMES PIGLET - "Piglet's Big Movie" opens on Friday. Ken Sansom's last movie ("The Tigger Movie") grossed $45,542,421 in 2000. We'll soon know if "Piglet" top that? Most critics writing early reviews are praising "Piglet's Big Movie" as a triumph of epic proportions. At RottenTomatoes.com, 4 of the 6 early reviews currently tallied are ranked positive. LDSFilm.com is predicting that "Piglet's Big Movie" will win the #1 spot at the box office this weekend. SCREEN DOOR JESUS REVIEWS - E-Film Critic has posted a very positive review of the feature film "Screen Door Jesus," which stars Latter-day Saint actress Alaina Kalanj in the lead role. The reviewer gave the movie 4.5 out of 5 stars. A wider theatrical release of the movie has not yet been scheduled. See: http://www.efilmcritic.com/review.php?movie=7221 Some excerpts from the review: "Popular wisdom says that you should never address religion or politics in polite company. The logic goes that neither side is going to change their views based on your opposition, and in fact they'll likely defend those to the death - so what's the point in even going there? Screen Door Jesus not only goes there, but it mixes those two no-no's, examining the politics of religion in such a way that nobody - religious nut, middle of the road thinker or left-leaning liberal - could come away overtly offended. Director Kirk Davis has taken on what could have been a suicidal task, shining a light on the good, the bad and the ugly of religion, yet through an even hand, a first hand perspective and an honest dialogue, the result is one that every thinking person should see and consider. .. Screen Door Jesus is a brave, beautiful ensemble affair that never once strays into preachy or instructive or accusatory territory." The Austin Chronicle also published a positive review of "Screen Door Jesus." SCREENWRITING SEMINAR SCHEDULED - The Utah Film Commission is sponsoring a free screen writing seminar. When: April 26, 2003 Where: The New Salt Lake City Library, 110 East 400 South Cost: Free Register: http://film.utah.gov/local_film_scene.html The Utah Film Commission is holding the first annual Utah Film Commission Screen Writing Seminar with special guest Dan Decker author of Anatomy of a Screenplay. This event is being held in conjunction with the LocoMotion Film Festival and Spy Hop Productions. * * * FINAL CUT - Final Cut 2003 March 18-22 a BYU Student Film Showcase Schedule: Short Format Program: in Varsity Theatre Program A: Tues-Thurs from 7-9 p.m. Program B: Tues-Thurs from 9:30-11:30 p.m. Long Format Program in 250 SWKT Program C: Tues-Thurs from 7-9 p.m. The Best of Final Cut: in JSB Auditorium Friday and Saturday from 6-8 p.m. and 9-11 p.m. The Sitcom "So Much in Love" in the Varsity Theatre Tues.-Sat. from 6-6:30 p.m. Fri and Sat only from 9:30-10:30 p.m. Tickets can be purchased at the Wilkinson Center Information Booth or at the door (but there may not be any left!) Get your tickets today! Featured in this year's Final Cut long format program is "Unfolding" - Christian Vuissa's latest short film. Vuissa's previous short film, "Roots & Wings" won a number of awards including the AML award for film, the most prestigious award given to a LDS-themed films. This award had only been given once before - to "God's Army". We are also privy to some exciting information about Christian's future which we cannot release yet, but you won't want to miss the opportunity to see this talented young filmmaker's latest work. 2 FAST 2 FURIOUS TRAILER - Trailers are now posted for "2 Fast 2 Furious", which will open in theaters nationwide on June 6th. A sequel to the surprise hit racing movie "The Fast and the Furious," the new movie stars Latter-day Saint actor Paul Walker in the top-billed role. Walker reprises his role as a police officer who goes undercover to root out crime in the street racing underground. This time he does so in Miami. The movie was directed by non-LDS director John Singleton (Boyz N the Hood, Baby Boy, Shaft, Rosewood, Higher Learning, Poetic Justice). Walker received $7 million for starring in "2 Fast 2 Furious." Walker also stars in the big budget time travel adventure "Timeline," which is slated to open a month after "2 Fast 2 Furious," so he might be competing with himself this summer. See http://www.thefastandthefurious.com/site/ DONNY NOMINATED FOR AN EMMY - Donny Osmond, host of the new syndicated TV series, has been nominated for an Emmy Award for Best Game Show Host. Osmond's competition for the Emmy this year: Alex Trebek (Jeopardy!); Bob Barker (The Price is Right); Tom Bergeron (Hollywood Squares); Ben Stein and Sal Iacono (Win Ben Stein's Money); Pat Sajak (Wheel of Fortune). Donny previously was nominated for an Emmy twice for his talk show "Donny and Marie": in 2000 and 2001. Osmond was recently nominated for "Best Original Song" in the DVD Premiere Awards, for "Imaginary Friend", in the "Land Before Time IX" video. But he lost to Jennifer Love Hewitt. BARNEY AT GUGGENHEIM - Detailed article about the exhibit of ethnic Mormon filmmaker and artist Matthew Barney's film/sculpture exhibit "The Cremaster Cycle" at the Guggenheim. Barney has used Mormon and Utah motifs extensively in his Cremaster series, although this Boston Globe only mentions this briefly. See: http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/075/living/_Cremaster_Cycle_reveals_a_brea thtaking_parallel_universe+.shtml BRIGHAM CITY ACTRESS IS STAR OF ELIZABETH SMART'S FAVORITE MOVIE - Newspaper accounts report that one of the first things Elizabeth Smart did after being reunited with her family watch her favorite movie "The Trouble with Angels." For the record, the movie was not written or directed by Latter-day Saints, but one of the stars of the movie was Portia Nelson, a native of Brigham City, Utah. Nelson had a major role as a nun in "The Trouble with Angels," her only major supporting role in a movie other than her role in "Doctor Doolittle." Nelson had a smaller role as "Sister Berthe" in the classic movie "The Sound of Music." Nelson, born 1920 in Brigham City, died in 2001 in New York. She is also known for playing "Mrs. Rachel Gurney" on the daytime soap opera "All My Children" from 1980 to 1990. HANDCART'S THEATRICAL RUN NEARING AN END - Your last chance to see "Handcart" in the theaters is quickly approaching. The film did not play in any theaters the past weekend, but it is scheduled to open in 3 or 4 new theaters on April 11, including theaters in Las Vegas, Sacremento, Afton, Wyoming and Orem, Utah. After this last set of theaters, Handcart will end its theatrical play. It will have played in 50 theaters in all and should approach the $100,000 mark. So far, the film has grossed $92,175. Presale of the DVD's should begin in May or June. ECKHART VS... - "The Core," BYU graduate Aaron Eckhart's first top-billed role in a big-budget film, opens March 28th. His co-star is Academy Award winner Hillary Swank in this $60,000,000+ blockbuster hopeful. Will "The Core" emerge triumphant in the #1 spot in its debut weekend? It's up against some heavy competition. Also opening on March 28th: "Basic" (starring John Travolta and Samuel L. Jackson), "Head of State" (directed by Chris Rock; starring Chris Rock and Bernie Mac); "Assassination Tango" (directed by and starring Robert Duvall). Our take: Chris Rock will no doubt lock up the comedy and urban crowd. Duvall's movie will bring out fans of military-themed dance movies (?) and old people who accept Duvall as a leading man. The real battle will be between the big marquee names (Travolta and Jackson in "Basic") and the big s.f. plot (Eckhart in "The Core"). We predict "The Core" wins by a nose. NEW CITIES FOR THE R.M. - "The R.M.", directed by Kurt Hale and starring Kirby Heyborne and Canadian pop sensation Maren Ord, will open in at least 5 Arizona cities on March 21st: Chandler, Gilbert, Mesa, Peoria, Tucson. The movie will also open on March 21st in Nevada in Henderson, Las Vegas, Mesquite and Reno. California openings are scheduled for April 11th. Currently the movie is playing all over Utah and Idaho. * * * ANXIOUSLY WAITING ANXIOUSLY ENGAGED - You'll recall way back in the first half of 2002 that we released information about Cary Derbidge's plans for his next movie, "Anxiously Engaged". (Derbidge is the producer of the critically acclaimed Latter-day Saint-themed feature film "Out of Step"). Well, there is now a webpage for the movie, currently located as a subpage of a Derbidge website: http://www.ldssilverscreen.com/anxiously_engaged.htm The webpage is slated to have a permanent home at: www.anxiouslyengaged.com Currently the page has nothing but an animated GIF which displays the following text: two temple weddings four funerals and a charming LDS woman who has just turned 30... and isn't married! Anxiously Engaged 2004 - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 05:00:32 -0700 From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] AML-List Moderator Practices >-----Original Message----- >I couldn't disagree more. I'm a veteran of many an email list >and I can tell you with confidence that the tone here is >singular and the only place I have ever found where liberal >and conservative can share ideas with some measure of actual >communication. > In a free-for-all, it is too easy, too >tempting to polarize. Before too long, all communication >ceases. You should try Mormon-L, entirely unmoderated. Liberals have their say, Conservatives have their say, each bashes the other for a while, one side gives up and moves on. If someone can't take the heat, they leave the list. Thom - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 05:03:04 -0700 From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] AML-List Moderator Practices >-----Original Message----- >This is my third post today. and I'm really truly very sorry. >But I had to respond to Richard Dutcher's post saying he does >not approve of censorship, and doesn't enjoy the sting of the >moderator's slap. Richard, you must be the most graceful of >all writers. Perhaps you don't need a moderator to help you >put things in a less offensive or threatening way. Maybe >you've never offended or made yourself out to be an ass. I am >very good at both of those things, and the remorse I feel when >I realize what I've done is awful. Why should you feel remorse if others chose to take offense at what you wrote, unless you meant to offend them? Thom - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 07:03:23 -0800 From: "LauraMaery (Gold) Post" Subject: RE: [AML] The Fictional Mormon Male I oughtn't let my mail stack up. I'm responding to this enquiry with half a dozen AML digests in my in-box, so recognize that I'm late to this discussion. That said: Bro.Dutcher asks: >Has the Mormon male been neutered? By definition. Femimen make ideal Mormomen. They're humble, spiritually sensitive, even mallable... They're good boys who grow up to be "good" -- ie, obedient -- men. Mensmen, otoh, are abrasive, roughhewn, and not given to suggestibility or nose rings. They make bad husbands*, and worse Mormons. *See local uber-shrink John Gottman's research on the mallability of men as a factor in marital happiness at and - --lmg - --------- OUR NEWEST WRITING PROJECT: Homeschooling Step by Step, Prima Publishing, Spring 2002. Everything you need to know about how to homeschool legally and effectively! How does your state rank? What's your child's learning style? What about college? Find teaching tips, teaching strategies, and more than 100 solutions to homeschooling's toughest problems! - --------- A message from LauraMaery (Gold) Post Web site: E-mail reply: - --------- . - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 10:46:15 -0700 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] Fw: Banned Book from Cedar Fort jana wrote: > As for affecting sales, all of the Independent LDS stores that our Sales = > staff has contacted have been very supportive, and they all are stocking = > the book. We are contacting several newspapers with the story, and = > telling everyone we can- so it should be interesting to see how = > everything ends up. I will keep you posted on what happens. :) > Thanks, > Tammy I'm glad to hear that not every half-a**ed decision by Deseret Book is benig duplicated by the independents. But what about Seagull? Any word on their reaction? (If Richard Paul Evans' experience is any indication, Seagull will ban this book plus every other book by that author--just to one-up DB). I also like how Cedar Fort is wisely using this setback to generate some free marketing. How do you sell a book? Get someone to ban it. Hmmmm... I'm thinking of my own novel right now. Getting it banned should be a piece of cake. - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 07:57:10 -0800 From: "Jeff Needle" Subject: [AML] Anita Stansfield in the News The following article appeared in today's San Diego Union-Tribune. I direct your attention particularly to the fourth-from-last paragraph, and would be interested in your thoughts on the sentence the publisher decided to snip. http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/uniontrib/thu/currents/news_1c20romance.html - ---------------- Jeffrey Needle jeff.needle@general.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 11:19:55 -0700 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: [AML] Physics and AML-List (was: Introductions: Jongiorgi Enos) [MOD: I'm fine with discussions of physics if framed, as Michael suggests--yes, I'm using "that term" from our current definitions of art thread--in a specifically literary context such as story ideas. Really, there's not a lot that's inherently off-topic for AML-List, if it's given a sufficiently literary twist.] Jongiorgi Enos wrote: > Now that I am a believer, and have studied LDS theology, I think the > implications of it are very interesting and deep, especially when aspects of > physics are introduced. Multiplicity of gods and multiplicity of universes > is now conceivable to some physicists. So, if I were a non-LDS intellectual > or scientist, I might be interested in chatting it up with Mormons, > except...ooops! Most Mormons would have no clue what I'm talking about. I would. You can chat it up with me. In fact, I think you chat it up wqith me on this list, because comparing LDS theology to physics is a gold mine of story ideas for a nearly nonexistent subgenre of LDS literature that fascinates me: LDS speculative fiction. > I don't mean to imply that there should be elitism in the church, or in a > sub-group thereof (say, Writers). Let me backtrack and say that I love the > gospel and I think that I must defend the church as an having the right to > appeal to every type of person on the earth -- including those who don't > have a thought in their head! The church already appeals to those types of individuals. It should also have the right to appeal to thinking individuals who want to explore doctrine and faith as their method of progressing in intelligence, not just continually affirm what they already think they know. The thinker is the type of person the church (not the gospel) seems to have a hard time relating with at this point in history. > 19th Century American Puritanical Conservatism is a "culture" that has > superimposed itself on the latter-day gospel. But that's not the same gospel > Noah lived, or Nephi, either. And isn't that a fascinating piece of irony, that the restored gospel uses culture derived from apostate theology as the basis for its own culture? - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2003 11:46:41 -0700 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] AML-List Moderator Practices RichardDutcher@aol.com wrote: > I must say that one of the reasons that I am not a more prolific poster on > AML-List is because I have felt the slapping hand of the moderator a few > times. I don't approve of censorship in any form. > > The main reason I joined this list was to engage in passionate and > intelligent conversations regarding LDS arts and letters. I find it ironic > and frustrating to be censored in this particular forum. I believe this > censorship to be destructive and unnecessary. > If we continue to practice censorship in the AML, then we are continuing a > destructive tradition of censorship in the LDS community. > > Let's take responsibility for our own words, and let's be confident enough to > stand up to the strong words of others. > > If there is no freedom of expression in the Association for Mormon Letters, > then what's the point of having it? Some very intriguing comments on the topic. I have always understood, and more or less accepted without question, that many people appreciate the quality of the discussion on AML-List precisely because the moderating keeps things in line with the list's intended scope and desired level of maturity. Personally, I wouldn't want to give up the moderated nature of the list. But Richard made me wonder if there are other ways the moderation can be handled. The level of moderating against virulent statements of personal attack ought to remain the same, in my opinion. Or of posts with noise and no content. (In fact, I sometimes wonder if the censoring of the latter shouldn't be increased.) But the dividing line between on- and off-topic, I'm not so sure about. Or the grouping of statements merely made in passion with statements that are intentionally offensive. Not only has the moderating helped the level of discussion remain mature and on-focus, it has also helped teach me more tolerance. People I in real life would have come to detest if all our conversations had been live and unmoderated, I've come to respect and accept as friends, because the censorship on this list has given me the time to come to know them before my own unbridled passions and dislike of their views killed things before they got started. And there is one other important consideration. AML-List is limited to thirty messages a day. This has two consequences. One, the list is manageable for the recipients. I compare this to the enormous volume of garbage I had to wade through on a certain other unmoderated list associated with a satirical publication that made belonging to that list nearly impossible. Secondly, with a limit to the number of messages, it's more important to make each message count, and forays into off-topic issues, no matter how interesting or educational, dilute the list's ability to handle the topics for which it was created, which are already voluminous in scope. This is perhaps the biggest reason I prefer a moderated list--it's too easy to waste bandwidth on wildly tangential topics. Yet, Richard's comments are valid. I wonder if a reexamination of exactly what is considered off-topic is in order. It would help me to explore options if I knew what sorts of discussions Richard tried to have but were censored. I'm trying to imagine what he would say that was bounced back. I can't imagine it veering far off topic. Were his thoughts expressed too caustically? I can't imagine he resorted to name calling or personal attacks without substance behind them. What exactly was censored? [MOD: Up to Richard to share if he wishes--or anyone else, though I'd like to not let this swamp all our other conversation. On the other hand, I can see some potential value for the current conversation if individual posters want to discuss specific examples of posts that have been bounced. I am willing to discuss the reasons for bounced posts *if* these are first specifically discussed and shared by the author of the post--including second-guessing myself where appropriate...] - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V1 #1010 *******************************