From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V1 #139 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Wednesday, August 23 2000 Volume 01 : Number 139 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 10:30:47 PDT From: "Jason Steed" Subject: RE: [AML] History and Fiction >On the contrary, Jason, I don't believe that my view is outdated simply >BECAUSE it is the popular view. I didn't say it was outdated BECAUSE it was popular. I said (or, at least, I meant) it was popular but ALSO outdated. My apologies for any confusion. >I also believe that history is much like >the movie "Rakumon" which is the same story of a murder told from several >different viewpoints, even the "victim" returns as a ghost and gives his >own >version. What is the truth? It is a compilation of all the events given, >if you can make any sense of them. This is my perception of historical >truth, or as close as we can get to it. But there are infinite possible "compilations"--which compilated version is true? What do you leave out, what do you include (this is the nature of a compilation)? If you include it all, you will probably have contradictory notions--how can both sides of a contradiction be true? >So, I suppose that I agree with you >that history as absolute truth is non-existent, but to get as close to the >truth as possible you need to read different accounts of the same event >(your example of reading about the Civil War from the Northern view and the >Southern view is what I'm talking about). You agree with me, then contradict that agreement in one sentence. If there's no absolute truth in history, then what truth are we "getting as close as possible" to? Incidentally, my sister has a roommate from Georgia. They are students at BYU. The roommate told my sister that the first time she EVER heard that the Civil War had ANYTHING to do with slavery was at BYU. In the South (where she grew up, at any rate) there is no connection drawn between the War and the slavery issue, whatsoever. Sounds like a different historical fiction to me. Different from the historical fiction, that is, that the War was closely (inextricably?) linked to slavery issues. Is one true, the other not true? Or are they both fictions--attempts to explain an event (the War) whose historicity cannot be disputed, but whose history is subject to constant interpretation and reinterpretation? Jason ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 12:58:18 -0500 From: Jonathan Langford Subject: RE: [AML] History and Fiction Jason writes: >History is like this. To a great degree it is a matter of perspective. And >our perspective is shaped in part by histories passed on to us, and we in >turn pass on histories to others. Thus, we construct (and deconstruct, and >reconstruct) our histories continually--and this, IMO, makes them fictions >like any other constructed narrative. I find that I both agree and disagree with this. Or perhaps I find what Jason is saying true but not terribly useful. Yes, it's true that history can be treated as a fiction, in that it is a constructed narrative, adding causality to "facts" that are always subject to alternative explanation and formulation. The same can be said of physics. Yet physics, history, and the writing of fiction remain separate endeavors, with their own standards for determining, if not truth, at least reasonableness. Historians have not ceased writing and doing research simply because alternative formulations are possible, even expected. And they continue to critique each other's work on a variety of grounds, related to methods, assumption, care with facts, etc. This, to me, is the essential difference between history and fiction. Using the term "fiction" for history is unuseful in that it leaves us without any commonly recognized distinct term for the kind of consciously fictive narrative creative authors write that recognizes the vast differences in community, goal, and above all, standards of discourse that separate what historians do from what creative writers do. The existence of similarity and overlap does not invalidate the conclusion--verifiable on numerous grounds--that the two are distinct endeavors. This may sound like an odd statement, coming from someone who so recently argued that writers of historical fiction need to respect what is known about history as well as the requirements of good writing in fiction. But it seems to me that when you write historical fiction, you enter into a genre that has as one of its *artistic* values a certain respect for the historical facts of the period and figures with which you are dealing. Some writers are more "strict construction" in this regard than others, as are some readers. But part of the game is dealing with the stuff of history on history's own ground. I know that Thom has little use for the cultural criticism branch of literary criticism--that which looks at the social significance and impact of literature--but for those of us who don't see art as an essentially distinct endeavor from other areas of human life, there are also grounds for a social criticism of historical inaccuracy. If history is how we construct our own sense of identity (which I believe it is, at least in large part), and if works of art and fiction are one of our primary vehicles for gaining a sense of history (equally true, in my opinion), then creators of historical art must take some responsibility--must be held accountable--for the history they create. As I tried to suggest in my earlier post, I think there are at least two levels of this--the level of historical detail, and the more critical level of broad fidelity to the spirit of what we know. I'm not willing to concede that either level is irrelevant in critiquing or responding to a work of art. I'd also like to respond briefly to comments from both Thom and D. Michael Martindale on my comparison of historical art to science fiction. I'm actually less straight-laced on this subject than my earlier comments may have made it appear. But I also disagree that faster-than-light travel is the same as "fudging" the details of a historical treatment. I was going to say that this is because FTL travel assumes some sort of scientific advance that hasn't taken place yet--and that is often alluded to in some way within the story--but I think that for me, the critical difference may lie in the knowledge level of the typical reader. Except with the most juvenile readers, there is a pretty general understanding that neither time travel nor FTL lie within science as currently understood. There's no potential for confusion there. If, on the other hand, someone starts fudging with the details of chemistry--alluding to an isotope that doesn't, can't, exist in our physical universe--it's simply poor writing, unless (as in the case of Asimov's _The Gods Themselves_) that impossibility is acknowledged, featured, turned into part of the story. There's a lot more that one could get into on this--but basically, I think that whenever a writer chooses to deal with some existing subject matter, such as theoretical physics, or 18th century England, or how to ride a horse, or life in a rural Wisconsin county--it's a mark of good craftsmanship to do one's research and treat that subject matter with some fidelity and respect. As a reader, I feel I have a right to expect it. If I don't get it, I spend my entertainment dollars elsewhere--not because I don't believe in art, but because good art, in my view, respects its materials, just like any other craft. (I also agree with Konnie's comment that it's worse to distort a historical character than to create a new fictive character from whole cloth within a historical context. The existing historical character is something that deserves to be treated with respect--and it's bad art not to do so.) I'd also be interested in comments from any bona fide historians on the List. I always get nervous when those of us who are English major-types start tossing around conclusions about other disciplines--though it doesn't stop me from doing so. Anyone want to provide a historian's perspective on any of this? Jonathan Langford Speaking for myself, not the List jlangfor@pressenter.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 11:56:50 -0600 From: "Annette Lyon" Subject: [AML] (Andrew's Poll) Influential Teacher 1. What teacher has had the greatest impact on you as a writer? As with so many others, there's a few First there's my older sister, Melanie, got the writing bug around sixth grade,as and that inspired me, gave me my start. She never continued, but I've never stopped. But although she no longer writes, she is still a fabulous critic. She gives me amazing feedback that has really helped my work. The first non-family adult to take my scribblings seriously was Sandie Mixa, my third grade teacher. Her encouragement of my first attempt at a novel still carries me. In high school, Debbie Drummond taught me the basics of organization and structure, which saved me countless times in college. She also taught me not to be afraid of the process. Susan Winn, my HS creative writing teacher, introduced me to my first real critique group--a terrifying but very helpful experience. She was always honest--sometimes brutally so--but always helpful, and always gave us hope and a direction to go. My worst teacher has already been listed. I'm glad he was good for someone. Suffice it to say my experience in that college class practically crushed my writing spirit. On one of the first days of class the teacher (without having yet read any of our work) basically told us we might as well give up, because the chances of any of us making it were nearly zero. He always pointed out the problems in my work, but never gave me enough explanation or help to know which direction to go next, or how to solve the problem. alternatively (or additionaly): 2. What author has had the greatest impact on you as a writer? She's not the greatest writer ever, and many might think she's nothing but fluff, but for me she is inspiring. She gives me a boost when I need it, and I can see her influence in my writing all over the place. She was my hero during much of adolescence: Lucy Maud Montgomery. For those who don't know, there's a heck of a lot more to her than Anne of Green Gables. She's the first writer to make me lose track of time as I read, to never want to put the book down. I recently reread a couple of her books after a long drought, and it felt like drinking at an oasis. Love her. Other writers who would make my list include C.S. Lewis, Charles Dickens, Jane Austen, and many others. Annette Lyon ________________________________________________________ 1stUp.com - Free the Web Get your free Internet access at http://www.1stUp.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 14:35:22 -0500 From: Michael Collings (by way of Jonathan Langford ) Subject: [AML] Orson Scott Card Bibliography Announced THE OVERLOOK CONNECTION PRESS PRESENTS- STORYTELLER: THE OFFICIAL ORSON SCOTT CARD BIBLIOGRAPHY AND GUIDE by Michael R. Collings * Afterword: "Fantasy and the Believing Reader" by Orson Scott Card * Over 500 pages of text and cover reproductions * Cover Art by Erik Wilson The first volume documenting and collecting Orson Scott Card's work for the last thirty years. Orson Scott Card has won the Hugo, Nebula, World Fantasy, Japanese Science Fiction, and John Campbell Awards among many other awards and honors. His novels include Ender's Game, The Tales of Alvin Maker Saga, The Worthing Saga, Xenocide, Speaker For the Dead, Folk of the Fringe, The Abyss, The Homecoming Saga, Maps In the Mirror, Lost Boys, and many other novels and short story collections. The Overlook Connection Press is proud to bring you every novel, story, poem-every word that has been published-and then some in the Orson Scott Card Bibliography and Guide by Michael R. Collings. This is a must for any reader, fan, or library who wants to learn everything about this wonderful author's work. CHAPTERS FEATURED IN THE BIBLIOGRAPHY * Bibliography: Book-Length Publications: Fiction, Poetry, Plays * Short Fictions: Short Stories, Novella * Unpublished manuscripts * Non-Fiction: Science Fiction Criticism, Theoretical Essays, and Reviews. * Video and Audio Tape Dramatic Presentations * Selected Secondary Sources: Interviews, Reviews, Articles, Biographical sketches, etc. * This bibliography is Indexed. * ALSO: Cover art of most novels and collections, rare publications, reproduced here BEING PUBLISHED IN HARD COVER * Hardcover Edition ISBN 1-892950-26-x $59.95 Publication Date: December 2000 THE OVERLOOK CONNECTION PRESS PO BOX 526 WOODSTOCK GA 30188 24 Hour Order-Information 770-926-1762 FAX: 770-516-1469 E-MAIL: OVERLOOKCN@AOL.COM URL: http://www.OverlookConnection.com/ocpmain.htm Visa, Mastercard, Check, Money Order Accepted. Order Online! - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 12:09:07 -0600 From: "Annette Lyon" Subject: : [AML] ANDERSON, _Waiting for the Flash_ This may not be what Anderson refers to in his title, but in her "Emily" series, L.M. Montgomery has something she calls "the flash." Montgomery herself experienced it as a child and described in her journals almost exactly the same way as she wrote it in this exerpt from the first Emily book: "Emily called it that [the flash], although she felt that the name didn't exactly describe it. It couldn't be descibed--not even to Father, who always seemed a little puzzled by it. Emily never spoke of it to any one else. It always seemed to Emily, ever since she could remember, that she was very, very near to a world of wonderful beauty. Between it and herself hung only a thin curtain; she could never draw the curtain aside--but sometimes, just for a moment, a wind fluttered it and then it was as if she caught of glimpse of the enchanting realm beyond--only a glimpse--and heard a note of unearthly music. This moment came rarely--went swiflty, leaving her breathless with the inexpressible delight of it. She could never recall it--never summon it--never pretend it; but the wonder of it stayed with her for days. " I've always thought it fascinating, from an LDS standpoint, as if the thin curtain were the veil, and that for her it was very thin, so thin that sometimes she could get a glimpse of beyond the veil. I have no idea if this concept fits with Anderson's book or if this is what he's referring to, but I thought it might be. Annette Lyon ________________________________________________________ 1stUp.com - Free the Web Get your free Internet access at http://www.1stUp.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 13:14:22 -0600 From: "Cathy Wilson" Subject: Re: [AML] PERRY/HOFFMAN/PAYNE, _Scripture Scouts_ (Articles of Faith) (Review) We haven't listened to Scripture Scouts for a while now; we were hearing them so often that we too had them memorized. But as I recall there was plenty to engage an older listener--lots of humor only grownups might get. As an adult listener I loved them, songs and all. Cathy (Gileadi) Wilson Editing Etc. 15 East 600 North Price UT 84501 - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 13:51:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Darlene Young Subject: RE: [AML] PERRY/HOFFMAN/PAYNE, _Scripture Scouts_ (Articles of= Faith) (Review) I ironically purchased the tape(the first Book of Mormon one) a day or two before the review came out--I had it on my list ever since Marvin Payne mentioned it in his Irreantum interview. And my four-year-old LOVES it. I can't describe how delightful it is to hear him recount the stories to me. I especially enjoy hearing him sing his favorite song, "the King Noah song": =20 I want want want=20 What I want want want=20 And this is how I get it: =20 I take take take=20 What I want want want,=20 And I don't even let it Bother me,=20 No siree,=20 Cuz I am king, king king! What a great song for a four-year-old who sometimes struggles with sharing with his two-year-old brother!=20 There are so many great resources to familiarize older kids with scripture concepts and stories. I'm thrilled to finally find something that speaks to a pre-schooler. (And glad, too, to know that older kids enjoy these as well!) The only bad effect: these tapes breed covetousness on my part! I wish I could afford to buy them all right now! =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Darlene Young __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail =96 Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 00:46:58 EDT From: AEParshall@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] History and Fiction Miscellaneous responses from a working historian: *Taking liberties with history* I have recently discovered a way to enjoy some works which, while based on historical events or characters, are more fiction than history: As soon as I realize that's what I've got, my brain shifts over to view the work as a kind of speculative fiction, an alternate history like the genre which explores what might have happened had Lincoln not been assassinated or had the Aztecs discovered Europe first. OSCard deliberately uses this technique in _Folk of the Fringe_ and the Alvin Maker books, among others. I can finally enjoy _The Work and the Glory_ through this mindset, although I am certainly Lund had no intention of writing science fiction. *History is bunk* A recent post summarized why history and historians are virtually worthless: we can't really know all that happened, historians must constantly revise their theories, there is no such thing as objectivity, yada yada yada. With all due respect, the only people who ever seem to engage in such handwringing are theoreticians, academics, and students asserting new-found intellectual superiority. Historians acknowledge those problems, then shrug them off with "So what?" Those who *do* history rather than merely talk *about* history know we have to start somewhere, we have to account for all the (admittedly incomplete) facts, we cannot ignore contradictory facts for the sake of a neat theory, and above all it all has to *fit* -- there is beauty and an order and a logic and a sense of rightness even to the chaos of history. Mathematicians, all sorts of technicians and pure scientists, and even artists of all kinds must constantly revise their theories based on their own growth and the ideas and discoveries of others. A recent AML-Lister wrote that he or she could not revise stories written at age 15 because the characters would behave differently now. Exactly so! We theorize, we learn, we revise, we try again. To single out historians for dismissal on these grounds is ridiculous. *Drama as revelator* It has been written here more than once recently (paraphrasing Max Golightly?) that dramatized history must tell something new -- "otherwise you might as well write history." It may be no surprise that this irritates me no end, this attitude that history is a drone who merely records the facts, while Queen Drama, ah! she alone reveals the unknown! History is pondering, discovering, recovering the lost, discovering the new, understanding what has never been realized before -- fiction has no monopoly on that. If historians merely recycled already known and accepted facts, we might as well abandon the effort and get an easier job on some other assembly line. Example: _Army of Israel_, a recent history of the Mormon Battalion, examined a previously unrecognized contribution of the Battalion in transforming green easterners into seasoned Western frontiersman -- a revelation every bit as significant as the discovery that Joseph and Emma were romantically involved. === We've discussed at length the legitimacy of genre in fiction, and of not misjudging one genre by the conventions of another. May I suggest the obvious? Fiction and history are as different from each other as literary fiction is from the police procedural. We can't pretend they are the same. Someone who is qualified to judge fiction is not necessarily qualified to judge history. I'll go back to biting my tongue when list members are unintentionally dismissive of the achievements of historians and the value of history, but I would also ask that you remember there are writers of every stripe on this list. Ardis Parshall AEParshall@aol.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 23:36:56 EDT From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN LDS Author Mentioned in Cyber Publishing Roundup: New London CT The Day From: Allan Hale To: Mormon News Subject: MN LDS Author Mentioned in Cyber Publishing Roundup: New London CT The Day, 18Aug00 A2 Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 23:40:00 -0400 [From Mormon-News] LDS Author Mentioned in Cyber Publishing Roundup NEW LONDON, CONNECTICUT -- This article mentions local first time LDS author, Tage N. Wright Jr's book "The Armageddon." The story starts with Dr Jacob Campbell leaving Salt Lake City with a donation from Brigham Young and other LDS contributors in an effort to find the lost cities of the Book of Mormon. Campbell is led by a corrupt guide who is on his own purposes and the trail of danger, intrigue, and horror begins. The novel is compared to Stephen King's Novel "The Stand." It is a creditable effort for a first time author and portends of future efforts on the author's part. I consider it a "good read." Allan B. Hale Sr Exeter, RI bigbro@lds.net Source: Cyberpublishing Fills Crucial Niche New London CT The Day, 18Aug00 A2 http://www.theday.com/arts/ts-re.asp?NewsID={E14D6A7F-636D-49DC-884D-CAA892402E58} By Rick Koster See also: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1587212870/mormonnews More about "The Armageddon " at Amazon.com >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 23:36:56 EDT From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN God's Army To Open in New York, East Coast: Kent Larsen From: Kent Larsen To: Mormon News Subject: MN God's Army To Open in New York, East Coast: Kent Larsen 22Aug00 A4 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 11:30:00 -0400 [From Mormon-News] God's Army To Open in New York, East Coast NEW YORK, NEW YORK -- Richard Dutcher's movie about LDS missionaries in Los Angeles is coming to the rest of the United States, as distributor Excel Entertainment pushes to get the film in theaters nationwide. This weekend, the film opens in theaters in Colorado, Kansas, New York City, Texas, and Virginia. By September 22nd, it will have opened in theaters in Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Louisiana, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, North Carolina, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Tennessee, giving most of the U.S. a chance to see the film. Along with the openings, the movie is getting and will be reviewed in major newspapers where it is opening. Today, for example, Dutcher is appearing on a radio talk show on New York's WNYC, a public radio talk show, at about 1:30 pm EDT. [The program is broadcast live over the Internet through WNYC's website at and will be available in the show's archive starting tomorrow.] Sources at Excel Entertainment told Mormon News yesterday that even after September 22nd the show may open in other theaters as the distributor continues to approach local, independent theaters. Depending on how long the movie lasts in the theaters, the movie could be available on video next year or sooner. >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 23:36:56 EDT From: Larry Jackson Subject: [AML] MN Evenson's New Book "Contagion" Called "Menacing, Chilly": Seattle WA Times From: Kent Larsen To: Mormon News Subject: MN Evenson's New Book "Contagion" Called "Menacing, Chilly": Seattle WA Times 16Aug00 A2 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 10:00:00 -0400 [From Mormon-News] Evenson's New Book "Contagion" Called "Menacing, Chilly" SEATTLE, WASHINGTON -- LDS Church member and former BYU english professor Brian Evenson has a new collection of short stories out, but the collection, like his previous books, is unlikely to be read by most LDS Church members. Like his previous work, Evenson's "Contagion" is "stark, dark and violent," says the Seattle Times' Richard Wallace. Also like his previous stories, those in "Contagion" are heavily influenced by Mormon and Western themes. The Mormon influence on his work goes as far as the prose itself, which Wallace says uses biblical themes and phrasing. He also calls Evenson's themes "sacred profanity" meaning "God's word going horribly wrong, as syntax destroys meaning and attempts to codify thought lead to blind obedience." This particular collection of stories also includes themes of language, including stories with titles like "The Polygamy of Language," and the title story, "Contagion," which Wallace calls "an elegant examination of the menacing nature of language and belief." Source: Menacing, chilly 'Contagion' Seattle WA Times 16Aug00 A2 http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/entertainment/html98/cont16_20000816.html By Richard Wallace: Special to The Seattle Times See also: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1877655341/mormonnews More about "Contagion and Other Stories" at Amazon.com >From Mormon-News: Mormon News and Events Forwarding is permitted as long as this footer is included Mormon News items may not be posted to the World Wide Web sites without permission. Please link to our pages instead. For more information see http://www.MormonsToday.com/ Send join and remove commands to: majordomo@MormonsToday.com Put appropriate commands in body of the message: To join: subscribe mormon-news To leave: unsubscribe mormon-news To join digest: subscribe mormon-news-digest - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 13:17:30 -0600 From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] History and Fiction (a response to a number of different posts on the subject--it's too hard to pick just one...) I think part of the fear that many of us have with historical fiction is that some will be duped by the license that the artist takes, and will thus take dramatic license as fact. In other words, we don't trust the reader to know better. The story goes that a BYU student once adamantly insisted during a church history class that Gerald Lund's fictional family were actual participants in the foundation events of the church. As Mormons, our fear of believing in something that isn't real (or true) and later discovering that our faith was misplaced is one of the great fears of our culture--especially with regard to Mormon history. >But I finally figured out what the difference was. I can watch >_Braveheart_, know it's mostly fictitious, and still enjoy it. But give >me any Oliver Stone historical film and I throw up. What's the >difference? > >It's because _Braveheart_ is intended to be entertainment, and therefore >I allow artistic license. But Oliver Stone films clearly have an element >of didactic propaganda in them. If fiction aspires to be didactic, then >I demand factual accuracy from it, otherwise I categorize it as crass >propaganda. This is a matter of individual experience. Marny and I love to watch films based on historical events, such as _Braveheart_, _Elizabeth_, _The Messenger_, or even _Shakespeare in Love_. We love seeing historical settings realized visually. But we never assume historical accuracy, and nearly always do research after the fact to see how the film depiction varies from general historical references (we most often start with the Encyclopaedia Britanica). If the event is a particularly charged one, we'll compare multiple references to see how different people have told the "history" of the event. It's not cynicism, it's just recognition that all stories are told from a point of view and to an intended effect--be the stories in films, novels, historicals, or histories. Our first assumption is that the presentation is slanted and at least somewhat interpreted (and thus at least somewhat inaccurate). Part of the fun of the experience is to see how the artist altered "known" events to tell an interesting story. As Mormons, I think we lose our sense of humor (and our objectivity) about any historical presentation--especially depictions of Mormon historical events. So many people call us fools for our belief in the foundation stories of the church that we've taken a siege mentality and fear believing wrongly. >This is probably why LDS fiction whose main purpose is to convert or >uplift is so disliked: it's purpose is not entertainment, but didactic >propaganda. With that as its purpose, it had better be factually >accurate. But the critics thereof don't think it's very accurate to life >at all. Under the circumstances, they have a right to complain about its >propagandistic inaccuracy. But I don't believe that any story is ever anything but didactic propaganda. Every story has a teller, and every teller has moods, passions, personal beliefs, political or social contexts, and their own experiences through which every "fact" must pass before it can be told. Every story has (as at least part of its purpose) the goal of convincing the reader (or viewer or listener) of something, be it the validity (or lack thereof) of the narrator's perspective, the accuracy (or fallacy) of the events depicted within, the realism (or absurdity) of the situations, the reliability (or fallibility) of the author. Propaganda has come to be a loaded term these days (nothing like a Nazi Minister of Propaganda to ruin a perfectly good word), but its plain meaning is to tell stories intended to convince the target viewer of a particular fact, idea, or belief. In other words, every single piece of packaged information we receive in the modern world, from newscasts to films to novels to sitcoms, is propaganda. Even _Braveheart_. I would argue that there isn't even a degree of difference between _Braveheart_ and anything by Oliver Stone (or Gerald Lund, or Levi Peterson, or Orson Scott Card). At best they tell their propaganda with varying levels of obviousness to their slant. We label the things that entertain or enlighten us as good, and we label the things that offend or frustrate us as bad. Where the line is drawn is entirely relative to the viewer. And those Mormon stories that are allegedly so guilty of being nothing more than didactic propaganda tend to sell quite a few more copies than the allegedly more realistic ones. Which scares those of us who are "enlightened" to a higher aesthetic. What if someone actually *likes* that thing that I have already dismissed as worthless? That makes one of us wrong, and I dare not contemplate that I might be the one in error. I would argue that neither reader is wrong; therefore, the fear is unnecessary, and the dismissive criticism is essentially misplaced. It's all inaccurate to life. It's all filtered. It's all interpreted. We just have to choose who we trust and who we question. I question everyone until they convince me over time that they're reliable; then I still question them, but with less rigor. Jonathan Langford wrote: >I'm reminded a little bit of the type of science fiction that attempts to >violate no known laws of the physical universe in order to tell its story. >To authors of this sort, violating the rules of time and space as we >currently know them is sometimes referred to as playing with the net down. >I think the same type of label can be applied to those who ignore the >historical details in writing stories about (ostensibly) historical >characters: they're writing historical fiction with the net down, ignoring >the rules of their own genre, or at least failing to rise to the challenge >presented by the historical element of their writing. As such, their >failing is a literary and artistic one, not merely a historical problem. There's an entire genre of sf that deals with intentionally altered history. The authors assume that their readers will start from the premise that what they're reading is rigorously accurate right up until it stops being accurate. Half the fun for the readers is seeing where the author skewed the known, and how reasonable their extrapolations are. The best (by my aesthetic) alternate history authors maintain the spirit of the history even as they muck around with the facts of it. They take a historical trend and illustrate it with fictional events, and in so doing actually expand my appreciation of the original, generally accepted events. Different alternate history writers alter facts to differing degrees, but they all assume that the reader either knows the accepted history or will research it. Isn't it fair for an author of other genres to believe the same? I like the idea of documenting your more convincing fictions--especially when you rely on a great deal of historical verity to validate your story--but I also think it's reasonable for me as an author to expect the reader to be at least a little diligent in learning and knowing the events that I write about. The author is, after all, writing fiction that's labeled as such. While I believe in authorial responsibility, I believe the reader has at least a little responsibility, too. Scott Parkin - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2000 12:53:20 PDT From: "Jason Steed" Subject: RE: [AML] History and Fiction >Jason writes: > > >History is like this. To a great degree it is a matter of perspective. >And > >our perspective is shaped in part by histories passed on to us, and we in > >turn pass on histories to others. Thus, we construct (and deconstruct, >and > >reconstruct) our histories continually--and this, IMO, makes them >fictions > >like any other constructed narrative. > >I find that I both agree and disagree with this. Or perhaps I find what >Jason is saying true but not terribly useful. Yes, it's true that history >can be treated as a fiction, in that it is a constructed narrative, adding >causality to "facts" that are always subject to alternative explanation and >formulation. The same can be said of physics. Yet physics, history, and >the writing of fiction remain separate endeavors, with their own standards >for determining, if not truth, at least reasonableness. This goes back to what I was saying in my discussion with Eric--that art and philosophy and science and history, etc., are all just different modes of knowing, or trying to know (or understand) the world, humanity, etc. I think it is very helpful to recognize this similarity--it is more than a similarity, it is an affinity, a co-dependence--between these modes, which we divide into "disciplines" or "fields", but which are not so mutually exclusive as this division tends to suggest. Perhaps it is more helpful to insert the word *mythos*. Rather than saying that history is fiction, fiction history, we might say that both history and fiction are myths--attempts to explain, to understand, made through constructed narratives. True, as Jonathan says, the different "field" have their "own standards"--but in the end the goal is the same: to better know and understand ourselves and the world around us. One of the main reasons I think this recognition is valuable--I want to say it is _invaluable_--is that it tempers the tendency that many of us have to create hierarchies, to privilege one discipline or mode over another (which is what I felt Eric was doing when he claimed art to be superior to philosophy). When I say "history is fiction", I mean it is, like fiction, a myth. A story (usually in narrative form) meant to explain, or to convey meaning. But the "truth" to be gleaned from history is not to be privileged over that gleaned from fiction, and vice versa. When people argue that "historical fiction" should be loyal to "actual history", there is the implication that the "historical truth" is somehow more true than the "fictional truth", and this is the hierarchy I am seeking to deconstruct. That is why I feel there is value in recognizing that history is, in fact, fiction. Jason ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V1 #139 ******************************