From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V1 #208 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Wednesday, November 29 2000 Volume 01 : Number 208 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 14:34:07 -0600 From: "mcnandon" Subject: RE: [AML] Role of Inspiration in Art (was Anti-Intellectualism) Richard, maybe you will find the answers you seek when you see "Joyful Noise" during its two week Christmas run at Pioneer Theatre. Nan McCulloch - -----Original Message----- [snip] Now here's what is curious to me. Who actually wrote this Chorus? It is unquestionably in Handel's style. Did he write it in the pre-existence? Was he plagorizing, halucinating, or was his pre-existent work revealed to him in this experience? Is that how we receive inspiration for our art? How do you suppose all this works? Richard Hopkins - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 21:43:33 -0800 (PST) From: Ruth Starkman Subject: re: [AML] LAAKE, _Secret Ceremonies_ >No harm meant to her by me. She was just mentally insane, as the Salon article says. That is sorta evident by her book. I wonder how non-Mormon readers come away after reading it? Do they believe Mormonism drove her to it? Do they think it will do that to everyone? And do they think she is normal? Alan Mitchell ****** I don't believe Mormonism "drove" Deborah Laake to write the book she did. Nor do I think the LDS church was the sole source of her unhappiness. And, no, I didn't think she was "normal" in the sense of being a mainstream Mormon. To get a sense of both the mainstream and the rebels, I try to read across the spectrum, the positive and the negative, as I do with Jewish writers. _Secret Ceremonies_ is... um, negative. I picked up the book because I was interested in its efforts at ultimate betrayal. What would motivate a person to wreak such revenge on her faith? I have to admit I was curious, perhaps more so about her motives than anything else. It was a pretty painful read. When I mentioned _Secret Ceremonies_ to my mother, I was surprised to learn she had already read it, as had several of her friends. What was this group of spry, dutiful, suburban grandmother-types doing reading about the frustrations of a sexually and spiritually disgruntled ex-Mormon? From their comments I gathered they'd been looking for a narrative of emancipation. Not any one of these women in my mother's circle is an outward feminist. But they all wondered what it must be like for their daughters' generation, which seems to have had so much more freedom. Here was a woman journalist, a good and daring writer, who was telling her lifestory. Did she have the same trials and tribulations as Jewish women? I'd had the same questions myself. I found the Salon article enlightening about Laake's dpression and grandiosity. Did I understand it correctly, I wonder, that the article implied her tragic end was a kind of lonely despair, like _Secret Ceremonies_ left her nowhere to go as a person and an artist afterwards. That's a very sad thought. - --Ruth Starkman - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 00:30:01 -0700 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] MN Fishers of Men: Deseret Book Press Release Tom Matkin wrote: > I found the characters much more vivid and > comfortable than the wooden fictional folk in the Work and the > Glory series. I don't know if it made a difference that it was > the talking book I was using and that I read the other from the > page. Either that or Lund is learning his craft. I'd guess he's learning his craft. Although I don't think "Work & Glory" comes close to great literature, I do consider it a positive step in the right direction for LDS literature. I do believe Lund made an effort (however imperfectly realized) to make his characters and the situations they get into real. There was darkness in "Work & Glory," and dark characters. That alone is an improvement over the past. If anyone can gradually teach Mormon readers to enjoy stronger literature, it's Lund, because he has the power to do so--he's popular. Here's to hoping he's learning how to do it. - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 07:43:11 -0700 From: Steve Subject: Re: [AML] Role of Inspiration in Art on 11/27/00 11:27 AM, Richard R. Hopkins at rrhopkins@horizonpublishers.com wrote: > . The circumstances > that prompt my question come from the experience of George F. Handel when he > was writing the Hallelujah Chorus for Messiah. He relates that a vision > opened to him and he saw and heard a heavenly choir singing the Chorus > before the throne of God. He wrote it down as he heard them sing it. (Great > tear blotches on the original manuscript attest to the powerful spiritual > experience this was for him.) Now here's what is curious to me. Who actually > wrote this Chorus? It is unquestionably in Handel's style. Did he write it > in the pre-existence? Was he plagorizing, halucinating, or was his > pre-existent work revealed to him in this experience? Is that how we receive > inspiration for our art? How do you suppose all this works? Richard, I hope it happened this way, but there are other versions of this story as well. At the very least the grain of truth in it has been mightily embellished by well-meaning storytellers through the years. Steve - -- skperry@mac.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:11:25 -0600 From: Jonathan Langford Subject: Re: [AML] Irreantum Fiction Responding to Jacob's response to Chris's response to Jacob... I think Jacob's reaction highlights the challenge that's faced by any publication, such as _Irreantum_, that attempts to showcase a spectrum of offerings rather than focusing on a particular audience and type of story. In terms of fiction, I doubt that there will ever be more than one story per issue that any given reader will find excellent--simply because the magazine caters to such a wide range of tastes. But then, my opinion may be suspect, since even in selected fiction anthologies, out of 15-20 stories total, I consider an anthology well above average if half the stories give me more enjoyment than the effort that went into reading them, and if two stories make it into my own personal category of excellent... As I see it, _Irreantum_ is a magazine primarily for those who want to know and sample what's going on in the Mormon literary scene. That's why there's so much of publishing news and book reviews, interviews, essays, and, for that matter, AML-List Highlights. This is completely my own opinion, and I don't think this is how it was intended by the magazine founders. But when I analyze the amount of magazine space devoted to creative work, versus these other items, it appears to me that _Irreantum_ is only secondarily an outlet for poetry and fiction. For those of you who are familiar with the science fiction field, I see its role as being more like a _Locus_ of the LDS publishing and literature scene, with some stories thrown in for good measure. I also think--and I see this as related to the previous point--that the kind of trust Chris is talking about and the kind of trust Jacob is talking about are two different things. I think the kind of trust Chris means is that if you read _Irreantum_ over a given period of time, he trusts that you will (a) find a wide spectrum of material that *includes* (but is not limited to) what appeals to you; (b) find material that is well-written and worth knowing about, even when it represents a type that you personally dislike. Jacob, on the other hand, seems (by my interpretation) to interpret Chris's invitation to trust as meaning that the editor will consistently select pieces that Jacob (or any individual reader) will find enjoyable and worthwhile--a very different thing. I don't think _Irreantum_ (or any magazine) can do both things: appeal strongly and develop the trust of a particular readership, while at the same time reflecting a variety of literary tastes and spiritual perspectives. The only readers who will consistently like _Irreantum_'s offerings are those who want to be exposed to a variety of different things, including--paradoxically--those they don't like. Which makes _Irreantum_'s readership in one way not so much a spectrum as a niche market of its own, consisting of those who have an interest in the idea of a broad spectrum-like community of Mormon letters. Perhaps this is an overly pessimistic view. It may be that simply because there are no other magazines publishing much Mormon fiction, there will be many fans of different genres (e.g., Mormon-associated sf&f, or Mormon-cultural realism) who don't have a great interest in other types of fiction, but who subscribe to _Irreantum_ anyway because it's one of only a few sources of what they like. Presumably, such readers would read the fiction that interests them, but skip over the rest. But given the small number of stories published in each issue, I think it's unlikely that any reader of this sort will find more than 1-2 stories per issue that appeal to his/her individual interests. That seems like a pretty slim basis for picking up a magazine. So we're back to a readership that either has a strong interest in the nonfiction pieces, or wants to read a broad spectrum of fiction writing--in short, back to those with an interest in _Irreantum_ as the voice/forum for an entire community of Mormon letters, as opposed to seeing it as an outlet for the type of creative works they particularly like. Having written this, I don't know whether it makes a great deal of sense, or will to anyone except me. However, I guess I'll send it off anyway... Jonathan Langford Speaking for myself, not the List jlangfor@pressenter.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 10:35:17 -0700 From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: RE: [AML] Role of Inspiration in Art Okay, how about this for Handel. He probably wasn't inspired much at all when he wrote the Hallelujah = chorus. He stole a lot of it from some earlier opera he'd written. The = Messiah was a commercial product, written at a time when his career was on = the rocks, in an effort to make a buck. Handel was a pro, an entertainer. = He wrote operas because that was what he did for a living, and turned to = oratorios because the public taste shifted. =20 Tim Slover is a wonderful writer, and he's written a number of superb = plays over the years. But then he got the idea of writing about Handel = and about how Handel wrote Messiah. And that play, A Joyful Noise, has = become Tim's biggest commercial success, with an off-Broadway run, = performances at a number of theatres across the country--right now, it's = at PTC, Pioneer Theatre Company, Utah's biggest professional company. I = think Joyful Noise is a wonderful play, an inspired play, perhaps. I do = think good work can be inspired by God. And when Tim wrote it, he was = drawn to the subject because it said something about the atonement that = Tim believes in with all his heart. But Tim also wrote the play because = he thought it would be commercially successful, which indeed it has = become. Same thing for Handel. He was broke, and he needed a hit. He wrote = Messiah as a commercial venture. Tim thinks that the play also had = religious resonances for Handel, and Tim finds the music deeply spiritual, = as do I. But Handel, in writing it, stole melodies from other, more = secular works of his and of others. Messiah is a patchwork; it was = slammed together hastily, full of borrowings and plagiarisms.=20 So there are multiple ironies here worth exploring. Handel was not some = musical saint, fervently and prayerfully trying to capture a specific kind = of inspiration. He was a talented hack, a pro trying to make a buck, = trying to write something that would get some butts in the seats of his = theater. Tim Slover is likewise a commercial playwright, a guy who's = trying to make ends meet through his writing. They belong together, and = both Messiah and Joyful Noise are marvelous artistic creations, and both = are deeply spiritual and deeply inspirational. Point is, this whole inspiration thing gets very complicated. I write = Music and the Spoken Word, for example. The point of that kind of writing = is to Be Inspirational, to Be Uplifting. And I meet the other writers for = Spoken Word, and they talk about how they get the music for their program, = and they pray about it, and they agonize over each word, and write = multiple drafts, and pray over each draft. For me, it's a job; I do it = for the money, and I want to write it as quickly as possible and be done = with it, and I don't pray about it. I re-write if I have to, but if the = first draft works okay, I don't bother. I figure, the faster I write it, = the higher my hourly wage. Am I inspired? I don't feel inspired. But I = doubt audiences can tell the difference. And I get letters from folks who = say how inspirational they found one of my SWs, and I appreciate those = notes very much, and also feel a bit fraudulant. =20 I think the Spirit can and does inspire great works of art. I feel the = Spirit when I hear the Hallelujah chorus (though I prefer For Unto Us). I = feel the Spirit when I read King Lear. I also feel the Spirit when I hear = Dylan sing Tangled Up in Blue, or John Coltrane play Dakar, or Aretha = Franklin sing essentially anything. I even feel the Spirit when I read = the science writings of avowed agnostic Stephen Jay Gould. I think the = Spirit is there, helping any honest craftsman. And works by people who = are really trying to feel the Spirit and use it in their work can often = become pretty sentimental and forced and not so good.=20 Eric Samuelsen - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 10:41:21 -0700 From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Role of Inspiration in Art >>. The circumstances >> that prompt my question come from the experience of George F. Handel = when he >> was writing the Hallelujah Chorus for Messiah. He relates that a vision >> opened to him and he saw and heard a heavenly choir singing the Chorus >> before the throne of God. He wrote it down as he heard them sing it. = (Great >> tear blotches on the original manuscript attest to the powerful = spiritual >> experience this was for him.)=20 Steve Perry responded: >I hope it happened this way, but there are other versions of this >story = as >well. At the very least the grain of truth in it has been mightily >embellished by well-meaning storytellers through the years. Steve was too kind. This story about the angelic chorus is an invention. = Handel borrowed the Hallelujah chorus from an earlier opera. No tear = stains on the manuscript either, unfortunately. Though, given his habits, = he may have spilled a bit of whiskey there. Sorry, folks, but this is a = nifty piece of folklore, on a par with George Washington's cherry tree. Eric Samuelsen - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 13:26:16 -0500 From: "Tracie Laulusa" Subject: RE: [AML] Shaken Faith and Truth (was: Real Life) I don't think Jacob was asking for the character to supply easy or trite answers. I think he was looking for the character to 'act' as a faithful Mormon should/would/could. (Correct me if I'm wrong, Jacob). Did the character get on his knees and really pray? And if he didn't, why not? Did he search the scriptures for comfort and answers? And if he didn't, why not? It's not so much a matter of finding quick answers, trite answers, tough answers, or no answers, It's about how Mormons are portrayed going about finding the answers or working through life's challenges. This reminds me of a little discussion that took place sometime ago. It may have been triggered by a post from a NY publisher looking for an epic Mormon novel. Someone commented that we needed literature that showed Mormons solving problems and so forth without all the 'praying' stuff. That obviously is not a quote but it is what I understood the post to be saying. When reading the post about the novel, I got the feeling that they wanted a central Mormon character, but not the religious part of being Mormon. How can you write a novel about a believing Mormon woman and not have her praying, going to the temple, believing in God, feeling bad when she falls short, repenting, attending RS or teaching YW or primary, and on and on. It's not that the character should be perfect, or perfect in doing the right things, or finding all the answers in nanoseconds. But why would we want to portray an active, believing Mormon not even trying to living the gospel. Unless the point is to show the character as a hypocrite. Tracie Laulusa - -----Original Message----- Jacob Proffitt said: . My > apologies to those > >authors, but I can't handle the continuing messages about my > faith that are > >devoid of an active, loving, comforting God anymore.>>> I just read the story because of what Jacob has said about it. So I thank him for bringing up the topic and directing me to "Faith of Our Fathers." My cousin's son died this past summer in a very similar way. I've talked to his mother as she has described the agonizing experience that this death was for his friends--young people similar to the characters in Rawlins' story. I've also listened to her describe the comfort God has blessed her with. But she also told me that at times the comfort leaves and she is faced with the black reality of his death. (and so forth) - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:38:25 -0700 From: Jacob Proffitt Subject: RE: [AML] Shaken Faith and Truth Both Darlene Young and Gae Lyn Henderson called me on the carpet for = calling "Faith of the Fathers" faithless. Each gave examples where their own personal experience mirrored the story and found resonance. I can't = argue with personal experience or how their experience might find resonance in = the story. All I can do is try to explain why I think that "Faith of the =46athers" is faithless and why it was so disturbing to me. =46irst, I don't have any problem thinking this story might accurately = portray an individual's experience--even a faithful LDS experience. In fact, I would have been far less critical of the story if the structure and title had reflected an individual experience. But the setup for the story starting right from the title and continuing throughout the story in the absence of key specific detail all contribute to making this story stand = for the general LDS experience. By allowing the reader to contribute key details and keeping distant from some experiences we are drawn to accept this story as universal. So while this story may be a true = representation for an individual, and perfectly valid as such, I do *not* find it representative of the faithful experience in general as it so carefully claims to be. I don't want stories with no suffering. I thought most of the suffering = in the story was perfectly valid. I had no trouble accepting the pain and questioning of the daughter in the story. I don't even mind the jabs at = all those oh so facile answers people give in the face of tragedy. As I = stated in a previous message, I too am tired of the too easy answer that "xxx = was called home" and the imperious determinism that implies. My problem is with the father, not the death or the daughter's trouble = with it. This is supposedly a faithful LDS father. He is the title = character. This story is about his faith and how it is representative of the faith = of all faithful LDS fathers. And yet, we don't see him exercise any faith = at all. He spends all his time wringing his hands trying to understand his daughter and suffering a crisis of faith that is never adequately = identified let alone dealt with. I have had crises of faith. I know what it feels like. I have had times where my family is going through things that I don't understand and where= it is time for me to help and I'm not sure how. When this happens, it is = time to get back to basics. It is time for prayer, for study, and for paying attention to your family. It is *not* time for turning inward and taking stupid risks in the wilderness. Introspection is one thing, and = important, but his daughter is in crisis and it is time for him to come out of = himself and put all his resources into helping her. Frankly, I wouldn't have = minded his little stunt either, if it had lent him some sense and understanding enough to help. But it didn't. So to respond again to Darlene and Gae Lyn who found it an accurate portrayal of suffering and grief at death, I did not have a problem with = the daughter. I had no trouble with the pain associated with a death that = makes no sense and is so very tragic. My problem with this story is as a = father of faith presented with a story that purports to represent fathers of = faith. I can understand him feeling helpless. But his reaction to his own helplessness is selfish and in the end of no assistance to the suffering = of his daughter. So on that level, I found this story repulsive. And faithless. Yes, that is a personal response. Yes, I have no trouble = with it being true on an individual level. I don't even have trouble with the depiction of grief and loss. But on the level where it supposedly represents me and a valid response to the hurt of a child, it does not resonate at all. It is not time to question your own faith just because your child is in pain. If anything, it is time to draw as close as you = can to God so that you can be there when it is time to be and back off when = it is time. It is in times of family crisis that you turn to God, not your = own problems. Jacob Proffitt - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 18:45:04 GMT From: cgileadi@emerytelcom.net Subject: Re: [AML] Role of Inspiration in Art Was he plagorizing, halucinating, or was his > > pre-existent work revealed to him in this experience? Is that how we receive > > inspiration for our art? How do you suppose all this works? This brings us to the curious work of channellers, who say they receive their work direct. There's a Mozart composing group in SLC, I hear, who claim they receive their work directly from Mozart himself. When you listen to their stuff, however, you hear what sounds like uninspired rip-offs :). Most channelled work, such as _Conversations with God_, has some interesting material but doesn't seem to work well artistically. I think the inspiration process can be a mixed bag. Sometimes to me it seems that a poem or a story is already formed in my soul and head and I just put it into form. Sometimes it's just hard work to create it. Cathy Gileadi Wilson Editing Etc. - --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using Endymion MailMan. http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/ - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 14:56:19 -0700 From: Scott and Marny Parkin Subject: Re: [AML] References to Native Americans in Mormon Lit. Susan Kroupa has a couple stories that have Hopi Indians. They are: Kroupa, Susan J. "The Healer." In _L. Ron Hubbard Presents Writers of the Future_, vol. 10. Los Angeles: Bridge Publications, 1994. Reprinted in _Vision Quests: Science Fiction and Fantasy Tales of Shamanism_. Boston: Angelus Press, 1995. Kroupa, Susan J. "Scapegoat." _Realms of Fantasy_ 3 (October 1996). Orson Scott Card's "America" may fit what you're looking for. Published in _Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine_ 11 (January 1987). Reprinted in _1988 Annual World's Best SF_. New York: DAW, 1988. Reprinted in _The Year's Best Science Fiction: Fifth Annual Collection_. New York: St. Martin's Press, 1988. Reprinted in _The Folk of the Fringe_. Also, Card's Tales of Alvin Maker series, especially _Red Prophet_, deals with Native Americans, as does _Pastwatch: The Redemption of Christopher Columbus_ to some extent. Marny Parkin - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 15:40:21 -0700 From: "ROY SCHMIDT" Subject: Re: [AML] JOHNSON & LEFFLER, _Jews and Mormons: Two Houses of Israel_(Review) Jeff, If I recall properly, you also read _How Wide the Divide_, written by Stephen Robinson, and an Evangelical whose name escapes me. How would you compare the two books, other than the obvious? Roy - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:01:44 -0700 From: "Sharlee Glenn" Subject: Re: [AML] Irreantum Fiction Jonathan Langford wrote: > As I see it, _Irreantum_ is a magazine primarily for those who want to know > and sample what's going on in the Mormon literary scene. That's why > there's so much of publishing news and book reviews, interviews, essays, > and, for that matter, AML-List Highlights. This is completely my own > opinion, and I don't think this is how it was intended by the magazine > founders. But when I analyze the amount of magazine space devoted to > creative work, versus these other items, it appears to me that _Irreantum_ > is only secondarily an outlet for poetry and fiction. > I think you're right about this, Jonathan. And whether or not this was the intent of the founders, I think it's great! Personally, that's exactly what I am interested in--knowing what's happening in all the various arenas of the Mormon literary scene. Where else are you going to find a LDS publication that focuses on everything from drama to poetry to science fiction to children's literature? I appreciate the balance that the editors of _Irreantum_ are trying to achieve. I am not generally a reader of speculative fiction, but I've enjoyed reading what my fellow LDS writers are doing in this genre. While I don't find all the short stories published in _Irreantum_ equally satisfying, I'm always interested in seeing what's out there. I personally felt that "Faith of the Fathers" was a much more artful and and "true" story than some of the others published in the same issue. Jacob disagrees. I think that's cool. We can both find stories that we love, stories that speak to our own hearts, stories that appeal to our very different tastes in the very same magazine! _Irreantum_ was set up to be a forum for "exploring Mormon Literature." I would hate to see that exploration limited in any way. Sharlee Glenn glennsj@inet-1.com - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:05:17 -0700 From: "Sharlee Glenn" Subject: Re: [AML] References to Native Americans in Mormon Lit. > Hi. I'm doing a little research. Can any of you name me some works of > Mormon lit. which make more than passing reference to Native Americans? I'd > appreciate it. Thanks--Jacqui Garcia _The Earthkeepers_, Marilyn Brown _Circle Dance_, Sharlee Mullins Glenn - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 01:28:54 GMT From: Jeffrey Needle Subject: Re: [AML] JOHNSON & LEFFLER, _Jews and Mormons: Two Houses of Israel_(Review) Very sharp of you indeed to remember that, my friend! Yes, I did read, = and review, "How Wide the Divide," a few years ago, and had it much in m= y=20 mind as I did this review. The main difference in the two books, in my opinion, is that "Jews and=20= Mormons" is much less an attempt to reconcile the two religious=20 traditions than was "Wide." The underlying thought in=20 "Wide" was, "Yes, we're different, but we really have a lot in common,=20= and we really ought to get along better." "Jews and Mormons," on the=20= other hand, works on the assumption that they really are different world= s=20 in nearly every way. =20 Little time was spent on the similarities. The result was a book that=20= was less accomodationist than "Wide." This is where I see the main difference between the books. > Jeff, > If I recall properly, you also read _How Wide the Divide_, written by= > Stephen Robinson, and an Evangelical whose name escapes me. How would= > you compare the two books, other than the obvious? > Roy - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 19:33:22 -0800 (PST) From: Darlene Young Subject: RE: [AML] Shaken Faith and Truth (was: Real Life) Tracy said, "I think he was looking for the character to 'act' as a faithful Mormon should/would/could. (Correct me if I'm wrong, Jacob). Did the character get on his knees and really pray? And if he didn't, why not? Did he search the scriptures for comfort and answers?" and then "How can you write a novel about a believing Mormon woman and not have her praying, going to the temple, believing in God, feeling bad when she falls short, repenting, attending RS or teaching YW or primary, and on and on." Here's my question, which I don't mean to apply particularly to Rawlins' story: because a story does not narrate the praying or the RS attendance, must we assume the character didn't pray or go to church? How much of the practice of being Mormon must we make explicit? Using Rawlins' story just for an example, I honestly didn't assume that since the praying scenes were not included then the character must not have been praying and reading scriptures. Apparently, some people did. Is there some sort of loyalty we owe to our beliefs that requires us to make these things explicit in our stories, or are there times when we can assume that the audience will recognize that God is a part of a character's life, even when we don't show the praying scenes? Or should we conclude that an absence of a prayer scene means an absence of prayer in a character's life? ===== Darlene Young __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 21:46:10 -0700 From: "Alan Mitchell" Subject: Re: [AML] LAAKE, _Secret Cermonies_ From: Thom Duncan >What you're saying is why write a novel about Joseph Smith because Vardis >Fisher did in the the 30's. Well, he did it rather poorly, again seeking to >smear more than explore. No. I'm saying Laake did a wonderful job of smearing by making it sound like she was persecuted by the straight patriarchy. If she meant to have an understanding treatment of the conflicts, the book would have never been picked up. That is my Levi Petersen point--Levi's characters at least have some sympathies toward a few doctrines and are probably more adept at pointing out and understanding the struggle. But was Backslider a national bestseller? No. Too bad. >Until Laake, or anyone else, gets the Shaken Faith story right, I think it's >worth the effort for others to keep trying. And how do you propose Laake gets the story to the publisher? But seriously, unless there is an eventual triumph of the shaken faith, the faith is cast off and useless. Is this the basi of Proffit's shaken faith critique? >It's not everybody's cup of tea. But some of us have been down that Shaken >Faith road. Some of us are traveling down it now, trying to hang on by >whatever's left of our fingernails. In a church where one seems to be >surrounded by people who "know" the truth, it is quite refreshing to >occasionally hear a familiar voice, even if it is as poorly sounded as >Deborah Laake's. I would not describe Laake's voice as refreshing. Try bedazzling. Exhibitionist. Alan Mitchell - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 20:49:51 -0700 From: Barbara@techvoice.com (Barbara R. Hume) Subject: [AML] O.S. Card and Cults: Have You Seen This Article? Hey, Who You Calling a Cult? Orson Scott Card is a leading science fiction writer and a devout Mormon. He was recently asked: Isn't your religion a cult? Read his feisty response. http://www.beliefnet.com/new/cult_calling.html - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 22:03:04 -0700 From: "Alan Mitchell" Subject: Re: [AML] LAAKE, _Secret Ceremonies_ From: Ruth Starkman >To get a sense of both the mainstream and the rebels, I try to read across >the spectrum, the positive and the negative, as I do with Jewish writers. >_Secret Ceremonies_ is... um, negative. I picked up the book because I >was interested in its efforts at ultimate betrayal. What would motivate a >person to wreak such revenge on her faith? I have to admit I was curious, >perhaps more so about her motives than anything else. It was a pretty >painful read. Thank you for your comments--I thought that may have come through the book. The question of why the revenge on faith is not a question for those of us who have read Church History. Why should a Laake surprise us? The best, real Anti-Mormons are ExMormons and have been since the early days. Is this the case with Judaism? I have the impression that the best Antisemites are northern European Nationists. Are there disgrunted Orthodox who bite back? Or do they just find a more liberal flock? > Did she have the same trials and tribulations as Jewish women? I'd had the same questions myself. And the answers? Alan Mitchell - - AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature http://www.xmission.com/~aml/aml-list.htm ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V1 #208 ******************************