From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V1 #797 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Thursday, August 8 2002 Volume 01 : Number 797 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 14:44:48 -0700 (PDT) From: "R.W. Rasband" Subject: [AML] Polemical Style (was: Newspaper Wars) An interesting article in the Salt Lake "City Weekly" on controversial "Deseret News" columnist Marianne Jennings. Note especially the pungent quote from fellow DN columnist (and AML's own) Ann Edwards Cannon near the end of the piece. http://www.slweekly.com/editorial/2002/mdia_2002-08-01.cfm Dorothy Parker once wrote that she admired Hemingway's style but detested his imitators: "Just look at the boys who try to do it." Perhaps the most influential American journalist of the 20th century was H.L. Mencken, whose sardonic, bitterly funny rants are still fresh and readable 80 years later. There are a lot of Mencken imitators around. The "F.A.R.M.S. Review of Books" is full of them. Perhaps the best nationally known Mencken wanna-be is P.J. O'Rourke. Jennings obviously aspires to Mencken-hood. She can be correct about some things. But her style displays more spleen than wit. It's hectoring and so lacking in human warmth that it repels more than it attracts. (Ann Cannon is the perfect antidote.) ===== R.W. Rasband Heber City, UT rrasband@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 16:48:10 -0600 From: "Ethan Skarstedt" Subject: RE: [AML] Institutional Repentance Clark Goble wrote: "The only thing I'm sure of in the matter is that the Lord ended it." Of course, if we're certain the Lord ended it, it stands to reason that we are equally sure he started it(or at least approved of it) as well. The church was and is either operating with his blessing and direction or it was and is not, after all. I don't have a problem with that. There are a multitude of reasons that God could have had for blacks being barred from the priesthood that have nothing to do with racism. The idea of God, the father of us all, being racist is internally absurd. I've also heard it said that those born outside the U.S. must have been less worthy in the pre-existence than those born in the U.S. and the same specious arguments are used to justify that as I've heard used surrounding the black/priesthood issue. It's nigh unto futile (but darn entertaining) to speculate on God's reasons for what he does. The one thing I _do_ know that applies here is that our experiences here on Earth are individually tailored to give us the opportunity to learn how to (eventually) become like Jesus in the afterlife. The fact that some folks are presented with trials different than mine (like being denied the priesthood) means nothing in the long run. =20 To tie this in to Mormon Letters I'll throw out an SF idea my Father had in a novel he wrote, that overlaps slightly. The protagonist is a firm believer in the church, the B.O.M., the current prophet and modern revelation etc. . . Problem is he doesn't live on Earth. He lives as part of a galactic civilization that thinks of Earth as a not-to-be-disturbed archaeological/anthropological treasure. He tells another character at one point that he and his fellow galactic-mormons are anxiously awaiting the day Earth discovers space travel on her own and can bring things like the priesthood and baptism to the stars. It's a very minor thing in a very good action SF novel but interesting nonetheless, IMO. Do we assume that all those other "worlds without number" have the priesthood and prophets of their own or not? - -Ethan Skarstedt - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 17:14:00 -0700 From: "Richard R. Hopkins" Subject: Re: [AML] Education Week Get-Together Sounds good. Anyone like Chevy's on University right off the I-15? I asked my wife about a date, but she said I'd have to take her or go by myself. Don't know which yet. Richard Hopkins - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 17:25:22 -0700 From: "Richard R. Hopkins" Subject: Re: [AML] "Choose the Rock" Eric R. Samuelsen wrote: I mean, it's all morally neutral. Of course music is effective; that's why we like it so much. That's why we love it. Different sorts of sounds evoke different emotions. I just think all those emotions are morally neutral, and that's why they'd better be spiritually neutral. Otherwise we'd only be able to feel the Spirit when we felt certain emotions, whereas we need the Spirit during all emotional states. My thoughts: There is only one emotion that I believe is not morally or spiritually neutral--anger. So if some music evokes the emotion of anger, I suppose that could be a problem. This has presented a small problem for me, as a matter of fact, because I personally love Beethoven's 5th, the First Movement. I think it evokes heroics and patriotism. But my wife thinks it sounds angry, so she doesn't like to listen to it. Mind you, she's a huge music fan. In fact, she is the only mother I know of who has been accused of playing her children's music louder than they do. So perhaps it's an individual thing, except that it seems like some rap music--is that music or just poetry recited in a rhythmic tone?--is intended to inspire anger. Before you say that it's just the words, please understand that many people can't really understand the words--to them (me, for example) its just tone and rhythm, and in some cases, that tone and rhythm sounds angry. What about that? Richard Hopkins - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 19:48:47 -0600 From: Barbara Hume Subject: RE: [AML] English Departments Etc. At 11:39 PM 8/6/02 -0600, you wrote: >Come on, all you List members from >English et al.; what think ye of all this?] I think I'm glad I'm no longer teaching English at a university. I also think that if I never hear the word "post-modernism" again, it won't be too soon. barbara hume - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 23:05:51 EDT From: OmahaMom@aol.com Subject: [AML] Invoking Emotions (was: "Choose the Rock") Lyrics, of course, have very definite leanings in whether they are "neutral", or lead up or down, depending on the subject matter and how it is treated. Music does not necessarily have to be a hymn (ours or another religion's) to lead upward. On the other hand, certain rhythms inspire different reactions. Sousa's marches invoke a "get up & get moving" spirit--whether there's an awareness of the title or not. There's a darkness to some music (Grieg's Hall of the Mountain King is one that I think of right off--though the title may not be exact), and peace to others. Some music inspires some reactions, some inspires others. (Try sleeping to Sousa's marches,for example.) There's a reason why people at rock concerts behave differently than people at a classical concert--and it isn't just because of the venue and the way they're dressed. There's a difference in my favorite Israeli folk music. Some is peaceful, has a gentle spirit about it (Ma Nauvoo), and some of it has a warrior-like quality. (Joshua). Visual art also has a different spirit about it that translates to the beholder...and I'm sure you can think of examples from your own experience. As artists with words, or sound, or eye stimulation, we have the ability to invoke a wide gamut of human emotion and experience. It would behoove us to consider what we want to do with that ability, and use it responsibly. Emotion, along with this, is not neutral. If you've ever seen someone who is catatonic schizophrenic--that is neutral--locked inside themselves, experiencing none of the human emotions that most of us feel. (There may be some emotional turmoil going inside, but there isn't a way for them to express it...so they have what medical people call a "flat aspect"--and if you've ever seen it, you know exactly what I mean. It's almost as if their appearance is two dimentional rather than three.) Violent emotion can be very destructive. People who carry anger around with them as their normal demeanor are a negative energy drain on those who are around them...even though their behaviors may be "socially acceptable", it's exhausting to be around them. Does this mean that people can't/shouldn't write gothics, or horrors, or thrillers? I don't think that's the point, so much as recognizing that if we are good at our craft we will inspire some sort of emotional reaction. Is it what we want to inspire? And that's something that only the creator of the work can decide for himself. Karen Tippets - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 21:54:19 -0600 From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: [AML] Re: Invoking Emotions (was: "Choose the Rock") > > Emotions are never neutral in terms of being able to feel and hear the > Spirit, Was Christ out of the spirit when he wept in sadness over our sins while in the Garden? What was the source of Nephi's great sadness at the sins of his people he saw in vision. Is there any more perfect example of spiritual depression than that found in Joseph's prayer while in Liberty Jail? Can the Spirt even speak through hate? Parley P. Pratt recounts an experience he shared with Joseph Smith while they were both incarcerated in Richmond and where the spirit was certainly in evidence while Joseph portrayed an emotion which has all the trappings of being a hatred of evil: "In one of those tedious nights we had lain as if in sleep till the hour of midnight had passed, while our ears had been pained, while we had listened for hours to the obscene jests, the horrid oaths, the dreadful blasphemies and filthy language of our guards, as they recounted to each other their deeds of murder [and] robbery, which they had committed among the Mormons.... They even boasted of defiling our dashing out the brains of men, women, and children. ".... On a sudden [Joseph] arose to his feet, and spoke in a voice of thunder: 'SILENCE, ye fiends of the infernal pit. In the name of Jesus Christ I rebuke you, and command you to be still;... Cease such talk, or you or I shall die THIS INSTANT!' " He ceased to speak. He stood erect in terrible majesty. Chained, and without a weapon; calm unruffled and dignified as an angel, he looked upon the quailing guards, whose weapons were lowered...whose knees smote together...who begged his pardon, and ceased their abuse." I think the Spirit can speak equally through all emotions. Pride is the only thing that can stop the spirit, but Pride isn't an emotion but rather a reflection of one's self-love. Thom - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 21:59:27 -0600 From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: Re: [AML] Institutional Repentance - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Skarstedt" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 4:48 PM Subject: RE: [AML] Institutional Repentance Clark Goble wrote: "The only thing I'm sure of in the matter is that the Lord ended it." Of course, if we're certain the Lord ended it, it stands to reason that we are equally sure he started it(or at least approved of it) as well. ME: Not necessarily. It could have been that the Lord was letting his leaders make their own mistakes and waited until they wised up enough to ask for further light and knowledge. The church was and is either operating with his blessing and direction or it was and is not, after all. ME: Maybe part of His direction is to let us simmer in our own juices on occasion, to live with our own mistakes. Isn't that a part of maturing, after all. I don't have a problem with that. There are a multitude of reasons that God could have had for blacks being barred from the priesthood that have nothing to do with racism. The idea of God, the father of us all, being racist is internally absurd. ME: But does it necessarily follow that his children, even his chosen leaders, can't be racist on occasion? All of us (even prophets) learn precept by precept. Thom - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 22:09:23 -0600 From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: [AML] Re: Invoking Emotions (was: "Choose the Rock") > There is only one emotion that I believe is not morally or spiritually > neutral--anger. Think about Christ rebuking the folks outside the temple? Joseph Smith rebuking the guards at Liberty? Strong emotions both. Was the spirit not present at those times. I think Mormons have a misconception that anger is not a Chirst-like emotion. Anger toward sin and hypocrites -- you can't get more Christ-like than that. The uncontrolled anger due to pride is the bad kind. Thom - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 23:45:06 -0700 From: "Kim Madsen" Subject: RE: [AML] Jan Karon's Mitford Series I read DROWNING RUTH and PEACE LIKE A RIVER. I liked them both, but thought PEACE LIKE A RIVER had more beautiful language in it. I especially liked the scene at the beginning where the little girl (I can't remember her name, I read is six months ago) is on a goose hunt with her father and brothers. The descriptions were absolutely tactile. I was transported. I have not read EMPIRE FALLS, but the mention of it reminded me of a book I really liked called KAATERSKILL FALLS. Anyone read that? Now there is a story of an insular community (Jewish) that deals with women's issues and family issues, but doesn't try to judge, condemn or apologize for anything about the religious beliefs of the characters. It has universal appeal and gave me insight into a lifestyle other than my own. LDS stories can/should do that too. I was at the SLC City Library the other day and did a search on "LDS fiction". 210 entries came back. I've started in on reading my way through them all. I was surprised at some of the things I expected to find, but weren't on the search list--like THE GIANT JOSHUA by Maureen Whipple. Granted, it's old and out of print, but if you can't find out of print books at a large library system, where can you find them? Guess I'll try the U's library next. Kim Madsen - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 00:20:47 -0600 (MDT) From: Fred C Pinnegar Subject: Re: [AML] ANDERSON, _Recollections of Private Seth Jackson_ in Bookstores > Paris Anderson is a fine writer of unusual talent, whose work with children's literature deserves more attention from us. His Seth book is about a boy who wrangles an enlistment in the Mormon Battalion and participates in the events of that long march. The story is told through his eyes and through his language. Paris renders a believable and readable vernacular and makes the story viable for youthful readers, who might otherwise find the military history in which nothing in particular of a military nature happens dull indeed. I understand that Paris' inspired illustrated children's book, Tough Luck: Sitting Bull's Horse, will soon be available again. If his publisher had any backbone at all he would also publish that cycle of probing poems called Argentina. Fred Pinnegar - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 23:25:17 -0700 From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: Re: [AML] Chaim Potok Dies On Tue, 06 Aug 2002 11:33:28 -0600 "Eric R. Samuelsen" writes: > But let's not forget one salient fact: Potok was outcast from the > orthodox Jewish community because of what he wrote. That was the > price he paid, and it was for him a deeply painful one. I certainly > hope that a Mormon Chaim Potok would not be excommunicated. But > Potok, essentially, was excommunicated. A very sobering thought. > > Eric Samuelsen Eric, Could you document this? Potok was an editor for the Jewish Publication League(Society?), his name appears in their translation of the Hebrew Bible, and he spoke about the translation in one of his sessions at BYU, which suggests that he was very much a part of his religious community. He did suggest that he became a rabbi more for intellectual reasons than spiritual, but I haven't heard anything about Potok being as controversial as Phillip Roth or Noam Chomsky, who was excommunicated by his synagogue when he spoke out (in the NY Times?) against an Israeli massacre in a Palestinian refugee camp in the early 80's. If he was as controversial as either of these authors I'd like to read about it. I have a particular interest in authors who are cast out or off by their culture. The deep irony is that those are often the writers people outside the culture look to for a sympathetic portrait of the culture. I read Roth's _Goodbye Columbus_ as a teenager and found it a moving, sympathetic portrait of Jewish Life. I particularly love "Eli the Fanatic." I know some people object strongly to his portraying American Jews as bigots for their treatment of eastern European refugee Jews in that story and elsewhere. Others object to his portraying the immigrants as superstitious. My impression reading _The Promise_ and _My Name is Asher Lev_ is that Potok is much gentler than Roth. I haven't read either author for a long time, so I don't know if I'd still have that impression, but I've got several books by each to read. Anyway, I would like to know where I can learn more about Potok's in-effect excommunication. I'm slowly reading IBS's book of stories about post-war refugees (the same group early Potok and Roth wrote about) _Passions_ ("While I hope and pray for the redemption and the resurrection, I dare say that, for me, these people are all living right now. In literature, as in our dreams, death does not exist."), and the odd thing is that Singer portrays these people with all their folk ways and superstitions, and the tension between them and American Jews, and no one worries about it. _Enemies: A Love Story_ (I love the Yiddish title Sonim [I think]: Die Geschichte fun a Liebe.) is also a fine piece, especially in its picture of how the survivors went about finding each other, things like advertising in Yiddish newspapers, and some of the consequences of that finding. I haven't read _Shadows on the Hudson_ yet (got my copy at American Fark DI May 3, 2001 for $2), which takes place in 1947-49, and was published serially in Yiddish in The Forward in '57 & '58 but an NPR reviewer said that Singer wouldn't allow it to be published in English during his lifetime because it was such a bitter novel and he was trying to cultivate a gentle grandfatherly image. The reviewer also felt the book wouldn't add much to Singer's reputation. Harlow Clark ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 23:25:04 -0700 From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: Re: [AML] Request for Prayers Well, just when I thought I had solved most of my computer problems, except not being able to get the motherboard to recognize the IDE secondary master, I ran into another when I uninstalled Cheyenne Anti-virus a week ago to make more room on my Win98 hdd, and got a nasty message next time I turned on the computer (and every other time) to the effect that Win 98 ran into a problem initializing configmg.vxd. Scanreg/restore failed repeatedly, but I was able to solve the problem today (Monday Aug 5) without reinstalling Windows when the one good registry file I hadn't tried restored successfully. So I collected my e-mail and found these haunting words from Margaret Young: "Thom's post about "We've Only Just Begun" and Harlow's about the tragedy his family is facing have left me really emotional. Thanks for sharing, both of you. Not much more to say. Such things leave us all speechless, don't they?" I found Thom's post and have been thinking about it all day. I'm so sorry, Thom. Thank you all for your love expressed both on- and off-list. Our ward has had a whole spate of sadness. Our neighbor across the street was just released as RS President partly because her son Ben developed leukemia. We borrowed their video camera to take some footage of David before he went to Primary Children's and when Karen saw it she said it brought back so many memories, as Ben was a preemie 20 years ago. The tragedy was made more difficult for David because of distance--his parents live in Moroni and Spring City (80 or 90 miles away), and complicated by family politics. David's mother joined the Manti polly gamists years ago (since left), so he grew up mostly outside the Church and had just started attending again when Sarah met him. His mother and some brothers and sisters came to the wedding, but when the bp. admonished Sarah and David to get to the temple as soon as they could--standard advice when bishops perform weddings--the family thought he was really talking to them, that they had walked into an ambush, so to speak, so they didn't come to the funeral, afraid of being ambushed again, though his mother was at the hospital for the good byes. (I'm listening to Patsy Cline as I write this. Her music is so poignant to me because of that stupid airplane crash. Gotta get a record that has "Crazy" on it.) Before this latest computer mishap I was able to read Scott Parkin's piece from 5/30/02 about Accepting Each Other's Offerings, and remembered it when Donna asked me to write a poem for the funeral, "One that us non-poetry types can understand." My first thought was, 'Oh no, Dennis is going to be there and I'm going to embarrass myself with a bad poem. Maybe Sarah could write one.' I actually said that last sentence, but immediately swallowed my pride and decided to accept Sarah's offering--her need for a poem, and give my offering. As I was thinking about what to say it occurred to me that a brief form, like haiku, would be appropriate for a brief life, so I created the poem as a series of brief images. Early Gifts And now my life is ended And now my life is just begun - --Chidiock Tichbourne, age 18, from a sonnet written in the Tower of London on the eve of his execution 1. Independence Day -- 23 Weeks A gift wanted by both but neither ready Unreadiness could only delay a week the artificial womb Substitute umbilicals attached to hands and feet or arms and head, Chest heaving and fluttering -- "It's the respirator." 2. Vitals 13 1/2 inches, 1 lb. 12 oz--less a few, some regained David Don Erickson, Jr. Harley (David's son) for short Cut in stone a name longer than he is. 3. Personality Turn off the bili lights, uncover his face He may open his eyes for a second of two Take out an unused I-V line he will move Vigorously "I've pissed him off but good," the nurse says. 4. Life Flight Duct between aorta and vein didn't close. Neeed surgery. Palm the size of my first knuckle, So we lay fingers on your head Anointing in Jesus' name. Surgery worked; other things went wrong 5. Scrubbing up Wanting clean hands for his pure heart David pumps foamy soap onto throw away sponge and bristles Fingernails, fingers, between fingers, elbows, arms, 3 minutes each hand Then keeps hands at his side, palms out and down. 6. Heat Wave In the 4th year of drought July sun adds more heat than usual Dries lawns, wets clothes Inside a sign: Infant _quickly_ drops temperature Avoid leaving port holes open for any longer than necessary Please cluster care 7. Leaven Yeast is good for bread of life This lump should remain unleavened Instead strep joins, and bacteria And David is forming mucus around the respiration tube To protect himself There will be no feast of unleavened bread 8. Pioneer Day "Have you asked the baby what he wants?" Cousin Carrie says. 9. Madonna and Child "You can stick your finger in through the wing door," Sarah says He holds my finger again after a week Camera's flash annoys him and he lets go Turn off the flash and try again. With Sarah holding his hand take pictures through the incubator Sweet and soothing words, "It's ok, my baby." 10. Naming and Blessing The nurses have collapsed the incubator walls Raised the hood, put up screens around the other babies Even the space empty since this morning's death Allowed more than two visitors Including the men--friends and relatives-- Standing around the incubator left hands on each others' shoulders Right hands under the blankets that cradle Baby David For a rite meant to be greeting not farewell 11. Nancy the Nurse Rocking, gliding peace back and forth in the room "You never get used to this part. If you make it past your second year you're hooked." 12. Leave Taking "I've been asked to be the bouncer," Bishop Pinkston says, Clears the room and invites back in family by family Finally the nurses take David and Sarah to an empty room. They will bring the baby. David comes to the waiting room for cameras Then asks us in. Little David gasps, old man full of wisdom and suffering Nurse checks heartbeat now and then Shift changes Slower and slower and finally gone Returned from his parents to his parents. 13. Funeral And I also beheld, said Joseph, That all children who die before they arrive At the years of accountability Are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven 14. Grave side Great-great Uncle Don opens with prayer Himself a six-month baby, slept in a shoebox, kept warm in the oven "We lost a premature baby ourselves. I know how you feel." Obituary for David Don Erickson, Jr David Don Erickson, Jr., nicknamed Harley (David's son), left his earthly parents for his Heavenly on July 27, 7:45 p.m. David was born prematurely at UVRMC, one day shy of 24 weeks, 5:19 p.m. July 10 after a week of trying not to be. He was 1 lb 12 oz and 13 inches long, though he lost several ounces and regained a few. The following Sunday, July 14, a life flight crew took him by ambulance to Primary Children's Medical Center for heart surgery to close a duct and prevent backflow from the heart into the lungs. On July 16 as David's mother, Sarah Lian Erickson and her aunt, Donna Clark, were passing Draper en route to Primary Children's, doctors called and told them surgery was about to begin. By the time they pulled into the parking lot surgery was complete, and successful. David would need another surgery for an ostomy bag and another about six months later to complete his digestive system. However, before he could get further surgery David developed yeast, strep and bacterial infections. On Tuesday, July 23, the nurse practitioner stopped David, Sr. and Sarah as they were going in to see their son and told them the infection was not clearing up and they would have to start thinking about disconnecting the life support. Doctors weren't sure they could keep baby David alive long enough for the family to gather from Colorado, where David's father and step-mother were attending a conference, from Texas where Sarah's sister Betty and her new baby, Alizabeth, left the rest of their family, and from southwestern Washington, where Sarah's parents live. But David, Jr waited for them all, received a name and blessing July 27 and returned home early in the evening. He is survived by his father's parents, Joel and Judy Erickson of Moroni, Utah and Lynda Sutherland of Spring City, Utah; by his father's brothers and sisters, Andrew (Meredith), Ben (Sarah), Carolyn (Keith), Eric, Forrest, Greg and Holly; by his mother's parents, Joseph and Marie Lian of Menlo, Washington, her sister Jennifer, also of Menlo, and her sister Betty (Sean) Casey of Ft. Hood, Texas, and by numerous cousins and great aunts and uncles, including his father's great uncle Don, who had also lost a premature baby, and was himself a 6 month baby, slept in a shoe box, kept warm in the oven. The family wishes to thank friends, family, neighbors, doctors and nurses and ward members in Pleasant Grove and Moroni for their kindness and love. Joe, Marie and Jennifer Lian write, "On behalf of David and Sarah we thank you all for your prayers, your sympathy, and support. God shed His grace upon our travels and we got there and back home with no problems. He showed us His mercy and through His Holy Spirit comforted our hearts and souls as we said our good byes. He showed His Love for us by removing snags from our path as we progressed through these tough times, by giving us the strength to stand up and move on with life. He reminded me of what he went through when His Son died. Thank you all, again." So, as Joe said, thank you all again. The godly walk and conversation here means so much to me, even when I'm having computer problems and can't join in. (Hmm, good timing, Kurt Bestor is singing "Prayer of the Children.") Harlow S. Clark ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 00:25:52 -0700 From: harlowclark@juno.com Subject: Re: [AML] Programs for Poverty On Tues, 6 Aug 2002 Eric Samuelsen wrote: > I'd suggest some further reading. A great book on welfare > is a recent one, LynNell Hancock's Hands to Work. Barbara > Ehrenreich's Nickel and Dimed is terrific. There are any > number of far more scholarly works, the titles of which I > can't remember right now. On Wed, 7 Aug 2002 Jacob Proffitt replied: > Why? Are you assuming that my problem is education? That if I > knew what you know that I'd agree with you? That isn't often the > case, as much as it is often the assumption. Or perhaps those books are studies of poverty programs that do work, since an assertion that programs don't work to alleviate poverty implies a request for counter-examples. I can think of two very good examples, micro-credit lending and the Perpetual Education Fund. A year ago this spring I went to the dentist before my newly laid off dental benefits expired. I wondered whether to take Martin Cruz Smith's Stallion Gate or Muhammad Yunus's Banker to the Poor in with me. "Yunus, huh?" the dentist said. "He's speaking over at BYU this week. A man in my ward is one of Muhammad's associates." I've thought it not at all coincidence that within a week of Yunus speaking GBH announced the PEF in conference (ok, to keep up the stream of acronyms I should have written GC). I suspect the Church consulted with Yunus on how to set up and administer the fund, though it's a contrast to what he does as a banker since he feels pretty strongly that the poor don't need training in a skill before they can work their way out of poverty--he doesn't object if they want the training, it just shouldn't be a requirement for receiving credit. ("I firmly believe that all human beings have an innate skill. I call it the survival skill. The fact that the poor are alive is clear proof of their ability." (140)) _Banker to the Poor_ is full of good stories about the poor being able to pull themselves out of poverty through a program, and Pres. Hinckley pretty obviously hopes that his program will do the same for a great many missionaries returning to poor homes and countries. This whole idea of using micro-credit as a way to escape poverty rather than become poorer resonates with someting I wrote last week but didn't send yet, partly because the Money Matters thread is so old, and partly because I wanted to finish my thank you for your prayers and good words on Baby David's behalf before rejoining the list conversation. On Thu, 6 Jun 2002 15:43:56 -0600 "Jacob Proffitt" writes: > ---Original Message From: Ivan Angus Wolfe > > What is odd to me is how this seems to get translated by the > > local leaders (nearly all of whom I've been noticing are > > doctors and lawyers) to "have no debt at all - and invest all > > your money." > > Well, not an entirely inappropriate message. Whether you're a > doctor, lawyer, brick layer, convenience store clerk, computer > programmer, whatever, it's by far best to have no debt at all and > invest as much as you can. > Any debt *is* bad. Even debt on a house isn't a happy thing and is > best avoided. Sure, all things in measure, but with debt, there just > isn't much to recommend it. Debt, like alcohol and cigarettes, is a > way of making short-term, seemingly beneficial decisions that bind > you to long-term detrimental effects. While I don't have much argument with either of these (though I'm hardly debt-free) I do have two comments. Since this thread was running (and my motherboard crashed) we have seen a whole slew of companies join Enron in the list of corporate accounting and other scandals. One of the couples Donna sits on babies for is moving out of the ward. In her farewell sacrament meeting talk the wife said, "I work for WorldCom," and talked about her gratitude at having survived several layoffs, and how when her co-workers talk about benefits being slashed and working for a lousy company she just feels grateful to have a job. They watched Matthew for us one night while we went up to the hospital to see our very ill preemie grandnephew. (Matthew didn't want to go because he's too young to go in and see the baby. He finally got to, before David was taken off life support--very hard for Matthew, he loves babies.) When we came back to get Matthew, she told me she's working several hours a week unpaid for Worldcom, which, of course, is illegal. I don't know if she knows that. Anyway, after thinking about all these big corporations cooking or half-cooking their books, words about the virtues of investing all you can seem a little naive, and I keep remembering the adage, 'Don't invest more than you can afford to lose.' There's a literary aspect to this, if you think about investing and debt as competing social narratives, and think about the narrative strategies people use to try and convince us to do either one, but there's a more direct literary tie-in when I think about Jacob's comment, "Any debt *is* bad." My work requires a computer. If I can't type my stories at home I have to go somewhere where other people also want to use a computer. The travel and waiting for that other computer is not a good use of time, so my wife and sister gave me some money for my birthday, which covered about 40% of the cost of a new computer. I decided to buy it on credit because I would spend less on interest than on gas and time to drive or pedal a disk of stories over to American Fork if I waited to buy until I had all the money. So in that sense I suppose my debt is my investment, the thing that allows me to continue my literary production, and, I hope, get rid of a lot of my other debt. Harlow S. Clark "But if you go out into the real world you cannot miss seeing that the poor are poor not because they are untrained or illiterate but because they cannot retain the returns of their labor. They have no control over capital, and it is the ability to control capital that gives people the power to rise out of poverty." - --Muhammad Yunus, _Banker to the Poor_, p. 141. Yunus also said, It is not the poor who are uncreditworthy, but the banks who are unpeopleworthy. ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V1 #797 ******************************