From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V1 #821 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Wednesday, September 4 2002 Volume 01 : Number 821 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 07:05:13 -0600 From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Marilyn Brown Books SO GLAD YOU'RE READING IT. Wanna make marks? I know it needs editing. I'm planning to do a paperback and edit the entire thing with vim and vigor. Thank you SO MUCH! (It needs rewriting too) Bless you! Marilyn - ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeffrey Needle > Wow! Suggestions! The first is that you buy a scanner.... > > I've just begun "The Earthkeepers." One thing I'm noticing is a need of editing, in > particular the need for someone to balance quotation marks. In the first 30 pages or > so, I think I've seen at least three instances of lack of balance. > > More later! - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 07:19:24 -0600 (MDT) From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: Re: [AML] BYU Education Week Event > Sounds like censorship to me. How is what this Sem Teach do any different > than the book burnings conducted by Religious Right Wing Nuts? A person > embued with the correct Spirit would teach the principle of self-control and > let the students decide which CDs or movies not to see. > > Thom Duncan It's only censorship if they advocate banning/destroying certain works across the board for everyone or most everyone. If, instead, the lesson is: get rid of anything you personally find drives the spirit from *your* life - do it, adn do it now; I see nothing wrong with that. - --Ivan Wolfe - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 07:54:26 -0600 From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: [AML] Osama's in Utah! I don't know how many of you read Salon on a regular basis, but today's is = quite beautiful. A scholar named Barbara Mikkelson debunks urban legends = for a living. Anyway, apparently one of the more pervasive urban legends = right now is that Osama Bin Laden is alive and living in Utah. Apparently = he'll blend in better around here, on account of him having all them = wives. Anyone heard this one? It's almost too good to not be true. Eric Samuelsen - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 09:19:54 -0600 From: Christopher Bigelow Subject: RE: [AML] Jeff CALL, _Mormonville_ <<< It's a bit astounding to me that just two stores won't be carrying it. And, as to your questions about reasons, I know there's a big upheaval at Deseret Book right now; perhaps this is one of the causes. I just don't know. >>> What is this "big upheaval at Deseret Book"? Sorry if I missed something in an earlier post, but if I didn't, do please elaborate. Chris Bigelow - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 09:24:54 -0600 From: Christopher Bigelow Subject: RE: [AML] M. Moreno ROBINS, _Estipac_ and Alternative Publishing Well, how and where do we send our order to get a copy? Chris Bigelow - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 09:41:47 -0600 From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Church History Recommendations? Hello! Cedar Fort is the publisher. Salt Press would have had its imprint on it, but the company felt the book was more mainstream. Cedar Fort has a web site www.cedarfort.com and its address is 925 N. Main, Springville, UT 84663. Phone is: 801-489-4084. Happy reading! It's a good book! Marilyn Brown > 8/29/2002 9:55:58 AM, "Brown" wrote: > > >Jeff, MORMONVILLE is a book that is just out, and so hot off the press that > >nobody has had a chance to look at it yet. It's written by Jeff Call, a > >writer for Deseret News, and THE PERFECT mainstream LDS lit. book. It's not > >high brow lit, but it's really good. It's a book that could be written only > >once, and this is it! I'm glad Jeff did such a good job. My committee for > >the novel award gave it $1000 last March. Enjoy! Marilyn Brown - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 12:02:02 -0600 From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: [AML] Musings on Farce I just saw the Scooby Doo movie. It got terrible reviews. Jeff Vice, at = the Deseret News, gave it 1 =BD stars. Our own Eric Snider hated it. = Ebert thumbed it down, and I bet even Siskel didn't care for it. They're all wrong. It's terrific. It's just that it's a farce. It's a = good one; it's one of the best farces of the past five years. It's = consistently funny, and what's more, it's an intelligently structured = farce. It has the requisite number of doors in and out of which the = requisite number of chases take place. The gags are set up and executed = with grace and skill. The characters are suitably vapid and it even = sneaks in a certain amount of social commentary. (I love that the victims = of the film are college kids turned into mindless zombies by . . . the = music of Sugar Ray! Brilliant!) =20 Farce always gets a bad rap. It's mindless comedy, crass and vulgar, = portraying mankind as consistently driven by physical appetites and a kind = of low cunning. If you like well-rounded, believable characters, farce = seems shallow and crude. If Tragedy reminds us that Mankind has the = potential for great nobility, Farce reminds us that Mankind is an animal, = and that our bodies, however much they might be Temples, also have = embarrassing and ludicrous desires, and emit the most noxious odors and = sounds. I think we Mormons have a particular aversion to farce, and I've = heard Scooby Doo described in the-end-of-Western-civilization-as-we-know-it= apocalyptic terms already, as it, 'what does it say about our society = that a movie like Scooby Doo. . . ' I guess I think we should lighten up. = =20 I love farce, precisely for gospel related reasons, because it leads us to = humility, asks us to ruefully examine our pretensions and pride and petty = vanities. (Enter Fred, Daphne and Velma). We're not all that noble, says = farce, and we're frankly pretty ridiculous. Thus the best scene in Scooby = Doo: a farting and belching contest between Shaggy and Scooby. It was = funny, inventive and, well, of course it was also rude crude and vulgar. = But in farce, those are all compliments. =20 Matthew Lillard's performance in Scooby Doo, playing Shaggy, is astonishing= ; he's frankly brilliant. I think it's probably going to be the best = performance by an actor this year--he's better than Pacino in Insomnia, = for example, and Pacino's gonna win another Oscar, which Lillard will not. = He creates a relationship with Scooby that is compelling, real, loving, = sweet-natured, and he does it all by himself; he was acting against air. = He and Scooby have 87 million times the chemistry that Hayden Christensen = and Natalie Portman had in Attack of the Clones, and all Christensen had = to portray was physical attraction. Easy stuff, especially when the = person you're looking googly eyed at is Natalie Portman. He's even a = pretty good actor,and so is she, but they botched it. Not so Lillard, = he's amazing.=20 Shaggy's the protagonist, and he's straight from commedia dell-arte. He's = the servant who solves the problem, but in commedia, there were always two = Harlequins, the clever one--Figaro--but there is an equally tradition of = stupid Harlequins, who solves the problem by accident. That's Shaggy; he's = kind and gentle and child-like (also childish, of course), but not the = sharpest knife in the drawer. And he gets a love interest, a girlfriend = in this, a perfectly cast wide-eyed, blissed-out hippy chick; she's as = mellow as he is, and even likes Scooby snacks. The Rabelasian excess of = Shaggy's appetites--for food, obviously, for 'Scooby snacks'--suggest a = certain sexual dimension that, for obvious reasons, the cartoon never = explored. The movie doesn't explore them either; just suggests that he's = found someone he thinks is pretty nifty. Unfortunately for their = long-term prospects, she's allergic to dogs, which does not bode well; = Shaggy may be 'whipped,' as Scooby puts it, but he'll dump the girl in a = second if Scooby, his best pal, is in trouble. =20 Shaggy is, in a word, innocent. And innocence, as we see it manifested in = children, has another dimension; a fascination with bodily functions. = Kids like their bodies, and like the fact that they can make their bodies = do things that grown-ups find disgusting. (Children also like foods = grown-ups find gross, and also hate foods grown-ups want them to like; = that's also Shaggy.) Can we imagine Adam and Eve, in the Garden of Eden, = on the glorious day that they discovered flatulence? Of course Scooby Doo conflates the conventions of gothic melodrama with = the conventions of farce. The animated series always highlighted the = gothic elements of the mystery genre, with Shaggy and Scooby left to play = comic relief, and the farcical elements, their forte, were left secondary = to the mystery itself. The movie reverses the priorities, focussing on = farce, with the gothic conventions subsumed to the requirements of farce. = Thus the gothic monsters who inhabit the bodies of the college kids on = this island become the chasers to Shaggy and Scooby's chasees, but now the = focus is on the chase itself, not the monsters. =20 What's behind it all? What are they doing? It's a mistake to say 'it's = just a silly Scooby Doo movie." Farce always has something else underneath= it all. In classic French farce (particularly in Feydeau), the point is = to expose the sham of conventional middle-class sexual morality. = Generally farce is about pricking a particular conventional bubble. In = Scooby Doo, I think it's about exposing the conformity of conventional = middle class youth culture, a culture built on images of rebellion and = angst and protest, images nowadays sufficiently commodified that they = become their own kind of blandness. The chaotic alternative? Shaggy's = blissed out beach paradise, a van, a dog, and lots of Scooby snacks. = Under it all is appetite. =20 Stare at that truth unfliinchingly for awhile, and see what it reveals. = =20 Eric Samuelsen =20 - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 12:17:40 -0600 From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] Brewvies Just a minor point, but I suspect that Mormons could order beer with their = meal at Brewvies too, if they wanted to. I suspect a goodly percentage of = Mormons probably would. I also suspect that we all of us have good LDS = friends who toss down a brewski from time to time; that is to say, good = people, and good friends, who may not have the same level of commitment to = the Word of Wisdom their bishops might wish they had, but who still are = Mormon, and durn proud of it, most of 'em. Beer drinking Mormons; that'd = make a good title for something, wouldn't it? Joseph Smith was one, after = all. Eric Samuelsen - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 12:21:02 -0600 From: "Clark Goble" Subject: RE: [AML] Lousy Movies ___ Richard ___ | "Frailty." This movie, directed by Bill Paxton, is my favorite | film (so far) this year. It is, in my opinion, a must-see for | any writer or director planning to make any religious-themed | film. You may not like it, but you'll love talking about it. | It comes out on video/dvd in a few weeks. ___ I have to concur. _Frailty_ was a surprise. Very, very good movie. When watching it you can't help but think of Abraham or Joseph Smith. I don't want to give too much away because so few people saw it in theatres. However I predict this one will be a film that will become popular when it comes out this month on DVD. It's definitely one of the best films of the year. ___ Eric ___ | And MST3K is brilliiant, and its demise leaves a real void. | But they didn't do horrid slasher films and horrid westerns | and horrid beach movies. Too bad. ___ Actually they did do a horrid beach movie. It even had Little Richie in it. (With lots of "high on goofballs" jokes) It featured Crow singing "swarthy girl." One of my favorite episodes actually. - -- Clark Goble --- clark@lextek.com ----------------------------- - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 14:36:00 -0400 (EDT) From: "Eric D. Snider" Subject: Re: [AML] Lousy Movies Eric Samuelsen: > And MST3K is brilliiant, and its demise leaves a real void. But they > didn't do horrid slasher films and horrid westerns and horrid beach > movies. Too bad. > > I'd like to clarify this point. I presume Eric is talking about standard, well- known films of these genres, like "Friday the 13th" or "[insert title of horrid Western]" or some Annette Funnicello trash. And no, MST3K didn't do any of those; they rarely did any films that regular people had heard of, because the rights to them were too expensive. But while they focused primarily on sci-fi films, they did do other genres, too, including the ones Eric mentioned. "Gunslinger" and "Last of the Wild Horses" were Westerns, the former directed by Roger Corman and pretty much your standard, stereotypical Western (except that it had a lady sheriff, and boy was she ever HOT!). MST3K hit beach movies with "The Horror of Party Beach," though many of their other teen-oriented films often had beach-movie elements, too. "Slasher movie" is subjective; when does it stop being a horror film and start being a slasher film? There were several MST3K films that were as gory and senseless, with as many single-minded homicidal maniacs, as a "Friday the 13th" or a "Nightmare on Elm Street." In particular, "The Incredible Melting Man" was pretty gross, and "Werewolf" had elements of that genre. "Zombie Nightmare" was a quintessential slasher film, in my opinion, as it had random teen sex, random teen killings and awful special effects. If you can imagine something actually WANTING to be a "Friday the 13th" movie -- and, what's worse, failing at it -- "Zombie Nightmare" was it. Nerdily, Eric D. Snider P.S. I have every single episode of MST3K on tape. I thought assembling this collection would bring me true happiness ... and I was right. - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 12:47:10 -0500 From: CharleneH@aol.com (by way of Jonathan Langford) (by way of Jonathan Langford ) Subject: [AML] Marion Smith Dies [MOD: This message is forwarded from LDSF list. For those who don't know, Marion Smith had a stature in the LDS science fiction and fantasy community roughly comparable to that of Eugene England in Mormon letters as a whole. He will be greatly missed.] Marion K. "Doc" Smith, the long-time professor, mentor, and faculty advisor to the science fiction community at BYU, passed away Tuesday morning after a lengthy struggle with cancer. He has been a vital part of the SF community for a very long time. His presense will be sorely missed, as will his wit and great knowledge of all things science fiction. The funeral will be held 11:00 Saturday, September 7 at the Hobble Creek Stake Center 450 S. Canyon Dr., Springville. There will be a viewing prior to the funeral. Another viewing will be held on Friday evening, September 6 at the Wheeler Mortuary (211 E. 200 So. Springville). I am posting this here as some of you may know Doc. :) Charlie Harmon ============================================== LDSF - Discussing Religion and Science Fiction since 2167 Unsubscription and other list info at http://ldsf.hplx.net ============================================== - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 14:31:38 -0400 From: Tony Markham Subject: Re: [AML] Lousy Movies As to the demise of AIP and their bad movies, I think the production company, Troma, has filled the void. Not that I'm advocating Troma films, they are bad. I saw only part of one once and that will do me for a lifetime, but if bad movies is what you have a hankering for, there you go. Comedy Central has a fun little game show called "Beat the Geeks" where average contestants pit their wits against Pop-culture wiz-kids from Movies, TV, and Music. The wiz-kids are introduced at the beginning of each show and will give a pithy little barb into the camera. About a week ago the Music Geek dead-pans: "The Osmonds' album _The Plan_ remains to this day the single best rock-opera concept album ever released...about Mormon theology." Oh yeah, and on Beat the Geeks if you beat the Movie Geek, for your grand prize they sometimes let you be killed in the manner of your preference in an upcoming Troma film. Oh, to live and die in LA. Tony Markham - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 13:14:32 -0700 (PDT) From: William Morris Subject: Re: [AML] BYU Education Week Event - --- William Morris wrote: > > The seminary teacher could ask students to throw movies and cds out on > their own, or if they don't trust themselves to bring them to him and > let > him dispose of them, but a public smashing takes zealousness to the > extreme---it links (and this is what I protest against) the > entirely-appropriate Mormon discourse of being careful in the media that > you consume with a discourse of censorship that goes beyond Thom's > mention > of religious right-wingers to link with some of the most egregious acts > of > 20th century totalirian states---Kristallnacht for one. I should add a qualifier to my intial post on this subject, part of which you see above. Of course, there is a major, not insignificant difference: what the students did was totally voluntary--it's not like they raided their fellow students lockers and bedrooms for the same materials that they felt were anti-spiritual. However, I want to reiterate that my issue is not with the idea of being selective in the media that you consume, but rather with linking that issue with acts that are loaded with negative symbolism. The whole ghosts of the past thing I mentioned previously. Also: I should also make clear that I do not agree with those who invoke loaded words and symbolism on either side of the political spectrum. I have no sympathy for liberals who apply words like genocide or fascism or pogrom to events/words that clearly don't rise to the same comparison. In that sense it is hypocritical for me to link the BYU education event to the actions of totalitarian states, but I did so in order to reinforce and make transparent my feelings that book burnings and cd smashing are loaded with a symbolic value that I'd prefer Mormons not be associated with---whether the intent is rightous or not---as well as to highlight the problems that self-censorship can cause when it derives from highly emotional, outside forces rather than from inner strivings to be good. ~~William Morris __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 16:16:38 EDT From: OmahaMom@aol.com Subject: Re: [AML] BYU Education Week Event If we're given "no-no" titles of anything, and told that this is evil, then it is censorship. If we're told to examine our lives and eliminate objects that are a negative spiritual drain, it gives agency to the individual. I destroyed a brand new book that I found grossly offensive once. I didn't want it in my house and it was so offensive to me that I didn't feel that I could comfortably, in good conscience give it to someone else. It wasn't a public thing, but the language of the thing offended me so badly that I could barely touch the book to throw it out. (And as a result I haven't and will not bought another thing by that author, though many rave about how great he is.) I didn't keep anybody else from buying it, reading it, or otherwise, though it did put one volume out of permanent circulation. And family & close friends know not to buy any of that author for me. I find nothing wrong with personal censorship, or even parental censorship. As individuals, and as adults, we surely have the right to limit personal/family exposure to things that we find offensive for whatever reason. I don't believe in public book burnings/CD smashings, even though would have to say that some probably deserve it. Ideally, as kids grow older, we will explain why we don't want particular things in our homes, whether it be certain tv shows, music, books, or even, occasionally people. Eventually, kids come to make their own choices, and yes, some of them will be influenced by ours. But is that bad? Do we all have to fall off a cliff before we decide that it might not be good for us? Our personal lives and our own family is our stewardship and we're responsible for the choices. There's some things I won't allow in the house, and some of the kids have experimented with them after they left home--just to find out if Mom was right. But somethings are a definite negative energy drain, and we must find out for ourselves what drains our personal batteries. If eliminating exposure to some things is what it takes, so be it. We each know where we are and where we want to be. Things that distract in a supremely negative way should be eliminated from our personal lives--however it happens. If graphic illustrations of kids bringing their choice of negatives and smashing them offends some, oh well. Sometimes it takes a graphic illustration to get the point...like suddenly finding yourself knee deep in a slime pit and looking up and saying: "Oh, is this what I was supposed to stay out of?" Duh! I find nothing wrong with the illustration as given. Mass censorship may be wrong, but I see absolutely nothing wrong with personal censorship. Without some censorship, we may be duped into accepting any & every kind of garbage. You just decide for yourself where the trash is. Karen [Tippets] - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 14:18:53 -0600 From: "Thom Duncan" Subject: RE: [AML] BYU Education Week Event - -----Original Message----- From: owner-aml-list@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-aml-list@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of JLTyner Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 10:45 AM To: aml-list@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: [AML] BYU Education Week Event I think the problem with this presentation for me is this: Far too often these demonstrations are supposedly some sort of outward showing of wonderous spiritual growth and sometimes come off looking like the Pharisees showing off their righteousness. Why the necessity of smashing the CDs in front of everybody? It reminds of the altar call in my old Pentacostal Days. It's so easy to appear to be spiritual in front of others. IMO, using peer pressure even to achieve a good end is Satanic. Thom - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 13:21:53 -0700 From: Jeffrey Needle Subject: [AML] Deseret Book Shakeup? (was: Jeff CALL, _Mormonville_) Gosh, I don't know a great deal about it, but I know they're planning on changing the direction the stores are going in. I only have tidbits, but I know from talking to a manager friend of mine that local folks aren't making any stock decisions right now. If I learn more, I'll pass it along. 9/3/2002 8:19:54 AM, Christopher Bigelow wrote: ><<< >It's a bit astounding to me that just two stores won't be carrying it. And, >as to your >questions about reasons, I know there's a big upheaval at Deseret Book right >now; >perhaps this is one of the causes. I just don't know. >>>> > >What is this "big upheaval at Deseret Book"? Sorry if I missed something in >an earlier post, but if I didn't, do please elaborate. > >Chris Bigelow - ------------------ Jeffrey Needle jeff.needle@general.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 13:44:34 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) From: "Marsha" Subject: [AML] AML-List as Spam? Two things really. One is probably superflueous, but I found it amusing. I have a 'Spam assassin' for my email, which identifies posts that may be spam or have the signs. Here is what the report for the latest AML list included: - -------Original Message------- From: aml-list@lists.xmission.com Date: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 11:54:19 AM To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: *****SPAM***** aml-list-digest V1 #819 SPAM: -------------------- Start SpamAssassin results ---------------------- SPAM: This mail is probably spam. The original message has been altered SPAM: so you can recognise or block similar unwanted mail in future. SPAM: See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. SPAM: SPAM: Content analysis details: (5.2 hits, 5 required) SPAM: FROM_NAME_NO_SPACES (-0.1 points) From: no spaces in name SPAM: FREE_MONEY (0.2 points) BODY: Free money! SPAM: PORN_14 (0.2 points) BODY: Uses words and phrases which indicate porn (14) SPAM: DOUBLE_CAPSWORD (1.1 points) BODY: A word in all caps repeated on the line SPAM: WORK_AT_HOME (3.2 points) BODY: Information on how to work at home (1) SPAM: LINES_OF_YELLING (-0.0 points) BODY: A WHOLE LINE OF YELLING DETECTED SPAM: LINES_OF_YELLING_2 (0.1 points) BODY: 2 WHOLE LINES OF YELLING DETECTED SPAM: PORN_3 (0.5 points) Uses words and phrases which indicate porn (3) SPAM: SPAM: -------------------- End of SpamAssassin results --------------------- Secondly, I had to give Carol Lynn just a pat for being brave enough to say this, though I guess she has the right after all the resume' behind her name Still, if I say it, my visiting teachers call the bishop, who then calls the RS pres, who then make me a 'project'. I may be tongue-in-cheek here, but it was nice to see someone I highly respect say in public, "This isn't scary". RE: "The church will always play a role in my life," Pearson says. "But I have become a cautious enthusiast of the New Age stuff. I don't want anyone to think this is scary. It isn't." Marsha Steed - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 11:18:57 -1000 From: larsenr@hawaii.edu Subject: Re: [AML] Brewvies Clark, To put a literary slant on your comment about having to be non-mormon to have a beer at Brewvies: I am working on a screenplay about Nauvoo. Some members might be surprised to learn that the Prophet Joseph had an occasional brew. In his personal Nauvoo journal he records he stopped by Moessers "grocery" and had a beer on his way home. It seems "soft" liquor was not considered against the WofW "Beer and Cakes" or "Wine and cakes" were the refreshments of choice among New Englanders, Mersey- side converts, and Liverpoolian converts at church functions. Hard liquor was drunk at home (for medicinal purposes). When we get to Utah things change (but not much). Brigham Young owned the only distillery in Utah (mustn't let the hard cash spent on medicinal liquor go east). The saints made mild root beer and home made wine for local consumption. I have to suspect along with the late Sam Taylor that a lot of the motivation for preaching the Word of Wisdom in pioneer days was to avoid the drain on badly needed seed capital. Trading with the gentiles to buy cloth(for garments), liquor, sugar, coffee, and tea was forbidden. Thats why early saints bought these items at the ZCMI. I am not saying my ancestors who used those items weren't faithful Latter-day saints. However, the benchmark in those days was not WoW observance or even the ability to sit through 3+ hours of boring meetings. The benchmark in those days was 3+ year missions undertaken without purse or script, jail terms for plural marriage, life on the underground.... This is not to say that today's members are any less faithful. Still I think most of us have yet to be tested in the same crucible as those pioneer men and women. We think exaltation is the reward we will earn for having a low opinion of modern entertainments, being intolerant of diversity in social relations, and refraining from that most dangerous drug alcohol. It ain't necessarily so. kind regards, Randall Larsen - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 15:36:01 -0600 From: "Todd Petersen" Subject: Re: [AML] "Profane" Settings for Religious Thought Isn't religion on this earth always in a profane setting (I guess I wouldn't include the temple, but lots of people are snoring in the St. George Temple, so I guess maybe I wouldn't always include that)? I mean, isn't our whole existance, relative to God's existance profane? In that case, shouldn't our literature support and uphold that truth? - -- Todd Petersen - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 15:59:38 -0600 From: "ROY SCHMIDT" Subject: RE: [AML] Church History Recommendations? I would agree with Dallas, and, although Jeff didn't like it, I would recommend Given's _By the Hand of Mormon_. Roy Schmidt >>> cloudhill@yahoo.com 08/21/02 10:44AM >>> To put my two cents in, I would recomment "Joseph Smith and the Beginnings of Mormonism" by Richard Bushman. It focuses on the Smith family, first vision, coming forth of the BoM, and the founding of the church. Those interested in the early growth of the church, this book is a must. Dallas Robbins cloudhill@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 16:16:45 -0600 (MDT) From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: Re: [AML] BYU Education Week Event > Kathy Tyner: > I think the problem with this presentation > for me is this: Far too often these demonstrations > are supposedly some sort of outward showing of > wonderous spiritual growth and sometimes come > off looking like the Pharisees showing off their > righteousness. Why the necessity of smashing > the CDs in front of everybody? Why not just mention > in a discussion of music having thrown them away? > That's still a sacrifice of getting rid of something that > one feels is not contributing to one's spiritual growth. I will admit I felt that was a bit over the top? > I gues the other thing I immediately thought of and > would've grilled this guy about is other things > about these young men he calls leaders. As football > players do they play fair out on the practice field and > during a game? How has getting rid of this music > affected their aggressive nature out on the field? > How do they treat other people in general? Do they > still hang only with other jocks, cheerleaders, and > other popular kids in the tight little cliques teens do, > especially Mormon kids? Or do they reach out to > others that are different and not so popular? I was a football player in High School and I'm wondering if this means you are upset because you don't like football players and so anything they do is immediatley suspect? I hope not, but I'm curious now. - --ivan wolfe - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 16:24:21 -0600 (MDT) From: Ivan Angus Wolfe Subject: Re: [AML] BYU Education Week Event > If they were burning books instead of smashing CDs, would you feel > different? > > -- > D. Michael Martindale Depends on what they advocated. If they said "Burn all copies of Catcher in the Rye because of its immoral language" then I would be very upset. But if they said "If you find that you are reading any book, and you realize it is hurting your spirituality, you should get rid of that book" I would be fine if that individual person burned the book so he wouldn't be tempted by it again - - as long as he didn't advocate everyone everywhere burn that selfsame book. Now I do think smashing a CD in public is a bit over the top - but I remember being in seminary, and over the top is often what is needed to get a kid's attention. Again, as long as they didn't say: "Go destroy all your Metallica CDs"; but if they said "Carefully review your music and if it is harming the spirit in your life, you should get rid of those CDs" I see nothing wrong with that. - -- ivan wolfe - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 16:23:36 -0600 From: "Eric R. Samuelsen" Subject: Re: [AML] BYU Education Week Event Frankly, Kathy Tyner's post on this thread said most of what I wanted to = say anyway, though of course much more eloquently, directly and kindly = than I would have put it. It's also good for me to read Fred's commentary,= giving us a more rounded view of Brother Bartholomew's work with young = people. At the same time, I have to say I'm still with Jacob on this issue. I = find the idea of a seminary teacher asking kids to destroy works of art = deeply troubling, I find the idea of using peer pressure to label certain = works by certain artists 'unspiritual' deeply troubling, I find the use of = a sledgehammer deeply troubling, and I think the whole thing smacks of = self-righteousness. And worst of all, this particular cultural construct = being given the imprimetur of Ed Week is terribly unsettling. I don't = think much Ed takes place during that particular Week, but this whole = thing comes out of a dark and repressive place in our collective cultural = psyche (if there is such a thing, maybe zeitgeist would be a better word.) How about instead listening to the music in question together? How about = talking about it? How about asking, humbly, what it is about a certain = song that speaks to one kid and doesn't speak to another? And listening = to the answers? How about actually doing some teaching? Which, in my = mind, involves a great deal of learning. I don't know what's worse; the = destruction of works of art, or the model of a teacher as Dispenser of = Wisdom. I'm sorry, but Brother Bartholomew, for all his undoubted gifts, = seems on the tiny basis of this controversy to be a very poor and possibly = dangerous teacher. A CD is a work of art. Maybe destroying a mass produced CD isn't quite = the same thing as taking a sledgehammer to the Pieta, but they do seem = very much to me like crimes that differ only in degree. And maybe a = Britney Spears CD isn't necessarily a deeply personal statement by a = serious minded artist who we ought to listen to. But somewhere, buried in = all the overproduced, overly synthesized goop, is a song written by an = artist who was trying to say something, maybe nothing profound, maybe only = something cliched and obvious, about Troo Luv and it's importance, but = nonetheless something important to that artist at that time. And maybe = it's interpreted by a young woman who may well be so completely commodified= that she doesn't even know who she is anymore, except some kind of a = performing puppet. (Actually, I think she's better than that. I think = she's becoming quite an interesting artist.) She is nonetheless our = sister. It's a work of art. If it doesn't speak to you, don't listen to = it. Give it to charity, or sell it on E-Bay. But we don't destroy works = of art. It's something decent people don't do, not ever. Eric Samuelsen - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 16:33:40 -0600 From: "Scott Parkin" Subject: Re: [AML] Text as Authority [MOD: I appreciate Scott Parkin locating this information and sending this out. At the same time, I think we're reaching--have probably already passed--the limits of this conversation as something that's AML-List relevant. So I'll go ahead and post this, but unless we can come up with a clearer literary tie-in, I don't think I'll be posting additional messages related to this specific issue (i.e., whether the Civil Rights movement was/was not Communist-influenced and statements of General Authorities on the issue).] Thom Duncan wrote: > I know the name of the GA and purposely kept it quiet on this list. I found > the source in Mormonism, Shadow or Reality by the Tanners. They have copies > of the news stories where these statements were made. Perhaps it's a point of AML-List policy not to mention the names of general authorities in conjunction with a discussion of the texts they offer, but I've been working under the assumption that you're talking about Ezra Taft Benson and the many anti-communist talks and speeches he offered through the 1960s and 1970s. While I certainly don't want to argue President Benson's authority, I think it is fair to argue what he did and didn't say about a subject in an effort to clarify I don't have access to the Tanners' work (and have a healthy mistrust of their presentational slant in any case), but I do have a couple of CDs containing the text of most of the Church magazines and official publications from the last few years. Whenever possible, I like to consult original uninterpretted sources; I can write my own interpretations from there based on my own resources. In searching the Conference Report I came across a talk by President Benson (then an apostle) that seems to at least mirror your reference. It was from the October 1967 General Conference, and it directly addresses the idea of a relationship between the civil rights movement and a communist plot. (I also read his October 1966 and April 1967 talks, and found them both to be highly charged, anti-communist warnings.) I include large chunks of President Benson's address here for discussion purposes. This was taken from my 1995 edition of the LDS Collectors Library version of the Conference Report, October 1967, pp. 35-39. ===== In 1942 Presidents Heber J. Grant, J. Reuben Clark, Jr., and David O. McKay warned us about the increasing threat to our constitution caused by revolutionists whom the First Presidency said were "using a technique that is as old as the human race -- a fervid but false solicitude for the unfortunate over whom they thus gain mastery, and then enslave them. They a suit their approaches to the particular group they seek to deceive." (The Improvement Era, May 1942, p. 343.) That timely counsel about a fervid but false solicitude for the unfortunate" could have saved China and Cuba if enough people knew what the Communist masters of deceit really had in mind when they promised agrarian reform. Such timely counsel could help save our country from Communism, as the same masters of deceit are showing the same false solicitude for the unfortunate in the name of civil rights. Now there is nothing wrong with civil rights; it is what's being done in the name of civil rights that is alarming. There is no doubt that the so-called civil rights movement as it exists today is used as a Communist program for revolution in America just as agrarian reform was used by the Communists to take over China and Cuba. This shocking statement can be confirmed by an objective study of Communist literature and activities and by knowledgeable Negroes and others who have worked within the Communist movement. As far back as 1928, the Communists declared that the cultural, economic, and social differences between the races in America could be exploited by them to create the animosity, fear, and hatred between large segments of our people that would be necessary beginning ingredients for their revolution. *Three-fold attack* Briefly, the three broad objectives were and are as follows: 1. Create hatred 2. Trigger violence 3. Overthrow established government First, create hatred. Use any means to agitate blacks into hating whites and whites into hating blacks. Work both sides of the split. Play up and exaggerate real grievances. If necessary, don't hesitate to manufacture false stories and rumors about injustices and brutality. Create martyrs for both sides. Play upon mass emotions until they smolder with resentment and hatred. Second, trigger violence. Put the emotional masses into the streets in the form of large mobs, the larger the better. It makes no difference if the mob is told to demonstrate "peacefully" so long as it is brought into direct confrontation with the antagonist. Merely bringing the two emotionally charged groups together is like mixing oxygen and hydrogen. All that is needed is one tiny spark. If the spark is not forthcoming from purely spontaneous causes, create it. Third, overthrow established government. Once mob violence becomes widespread and commonplace, condition those who are emotionally involved to accept violence as the only way to "settle the score" once and for all. Provide leadership and training for guerilla warfare. Institute discipline and terrorism to insure at least passive support from the larger, inactive segment of the population. Train and battle-harden leadership through sporadic riots and battles with police. Finally, at the appointed time, launch an all-out simultaneous offensive in every major city. [SNIP] *Internal strife and conflict* In such countries as Czechoslovakia, the Communists have used an entirely different method of internal conquest. Instead of the force and violence of a bloody revolution (a "war of national liberation), parliamentary and political means were used to bring about a more peaceful transition to Communism. The Communist strategists call this alternate plan a "proletarian" revolution. This plan is as follows: Using unidentified Communist agents and non-Communist sympathizers in key positions in government, in communications media, and in mass organizations, such as labor unions and civil rights groups, demand more and more government power as the solution to all civil rights problems. Total government is the objective of Communism. Without calling it by name, build Communism piece by piece through mass pressures for presidential decrees, court orders, and legislation that appear to be aimed at improving civil rights and other social reforms. If there is social, economic, or educational discrimination, then advocate more government programs and control. [SNIP] Let us consider some suggestions for our survival. The hour is late. *Factors of conspiracy becoming commonplace* The Communist program for revolution in America has been in progress for many years and is far advanced. While it can be thwarted in a fairly short period of time merely by sufficient exposure, the evil effects of what has already been accomplished cannot be removed overnight. The animosities, the hatred, the extension of government control into our daily lives -- all this will take time to repair. The already-inflicted wounds will be slow in healing. But they can be healed; that is the important point. 1. First of all, we must not place the blame upon Negroes. They are merely the unfortunate group that has been selected by professional Communist agitators to be used as the primary source of cannon fodder. Not one in a thousand Americans -- black or white -- really understands the full implications of today's civil rights agitation. The planning, direction, and leadership come from the Communists, and most of those are white men who fully intend to destroy America by spilling Negro blood, rather than their own. 2. Next, we must not participate in any so-called "blacklash" activity which might tend to further intensify inter-racial friction. Anti-Negro vigilante action, or mob action, of any kind fits perfectly into the Communist plan. This is one of the best ways to force the decent Negro into cooperating with militant Negro groups. The Communists are just as anxious to spearhead such anti-Negro actions as they are to organize demonstrations that are calculated to irritate white people. 3. We must insist that duly authorized legislative investigating committees launch an even more exhaustive study and expose the degree to which secret Communists have penetrated into the civil rights movement. The same needs to be done with militant anti-Negro groups. This is an effective way for the American people of both races to find out who are the false leaders among them. [SNIP] 6. Lastly, we need a vast awakening of the American people as to the true nature of the Communist blueprint for revolution. Considering the degree to which the controlling influences of the federal government and many of the communications media are now furthering this Communist revolution, it is unrealistic to expect most of our present leaders or the networks to bring about this awakening. In fact, they may be expected to resist it. That means that individual citizens must stand up and assume more than their share of the responsibility. The speaker's platform, hand distribution of literature, study clubs, home discussions -- all must be pressed into service. All of us should read the new book, Communist Revolution in the Streets, written by Gary Allen, with an introduction by W. Cleon Skousen. Each of us must be willing to discuss the problem openly with our friends -- especially those of the Negro race. The success or failure of Americans of all races to meet this challenge may well determine the fate of our country. If we fail, we will all lose our civil rights, black man and white man together, for we will live under perfect Communist equality -- the equality of slaves. *Satanic threat to peace, liberty and God's work* As President McKay has stated, "The position of this Church on the subject of Communism has never changed. We consider it the greatest satanical threat to peace, prosperity, and the spread of God's work among men that exists on the face of the earth." He has also counseled that "next to being one in worshiping God, there is nothing in this world upon which this Church should be more united than in upholding and defending the Constitution of the United States]" (The Instructor, Vol. 93 (1956), p. 94.) May we unite behind the Prophet in opposing the Communist conspiracy and preserving our freedom and our divine constitution. ===== I cut out some of the transition elements, section titles, and points of explication to try to keep this to his core arguments. As I read his words, I'm struck with the overwhelming sense that what he's commenting on here is not the civil rights movement, but fear of communism. He seems to see the civil rights movement as a good and valid thing that has been hijacked by those whose goals are not racial equality, but political revolution. >From the very start he suggests "Now there is nothing wrong with civil rights; it is what's being done in the name of civil rights that is alarming." He reminds throughout that the alleged communist threat comes from many directions and involves both black and white groups, and advocates investigation of not only the civil rights groups, but that "the same needs to be done with militant anti-Negro groups." He advocates discussing the issues with black friends and coming to understanding and constructive solutions. I don't see denial of civil rights as a good cause, and I don't see the blanket denunciation of the civil rights movement. I don't see the institutional racism, but rather an institutional fear of communism as it happens to be revealed in aspects of the civil rights movement. Perhaps his other quotes are more strident, but this one seems to directly comment to the question and stops well short of decrying civil rights as a bad thing. > I suggest this attitude changes depending on whomever's in charge at the > time. As Margaret can probably verify, none other than the FP under Joseph > F. Smith once counseled Church leaders to have Black members sit on the > back row of the chapel so as not to offend others. Which is an indictment of the white members for their own intolerance, not the preaching of institutional racism by the authorities of the Church. Many congregations at the time weren't allowing black parishoners a seat anywhere in the chapel. Scott Parkin - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V1 #821 ******************************