From: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com (aml-list-digest) To: aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: aml-list-digest V2 #100 Reply-To: aml-list Sender: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk aml-list-digest Wednesday, July 9 2003 Volume 02 : Number 100 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 21:10:23 -0600 From: "D. Michael Martindale" Subject: Re: [AML] LDS-Themed Feature Film at GLBT Film Fest "Eric D. Snider" wrote: > Not to pick nits, but does anyone else find the "GLBT" abbreviation > off-putting and misused? I don't like it, but mainly because it's stupid. I can't even say it right in my head when I read it. It comes out GBLT or something (great bacon lettuce and tomato?) I have to pause to remember what it even stands for. Somebody pick a single, simple word to stand for all of them. Changing terms has been done a bazillion times in the name of political correctness--we can stand one more time. And if they can come up with the word "gay" to stand for "homosexual," surely we can think of a creative term for the lot of "them." - -- D. Michael Martindale dmichael@wwno.com ================================== Check out Worldsmiths, the new online LDS writers group, at http://www.wwno.com/worldsmiths Sponsored by Worlds Without Number http://www.wwno.com ================================== - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 01:47:58 -0500 From: "Preston Hunter" Subject: [AML] re: GLBT Eric D. Snider wrote, in response to Preston Hunter's use of the abbreviation "GLBT": >>Not to pick nits, but does anyone else find the "GLBT" abbreviation >>off-putting and misused? >>I mean, Troy Barber is not L, >>B or T; he is most definitely G, and I suspect he had no intention of >>embracing a lesbian, bisexual or transsexual lifestyle. >>Using "GLBT" in those contexts almost seems overly dismissive to me, >>like we won't dignify one of Those People by giving him/her a >>specific appellation; we'll lump all of THEM into one category >>instead. It's like calling all non-Americans "foreigners," rather >>than by whatever specific country they're from. Here is a VERY quick exercise: Go to google.com and do a search for "glbt." You will see that the abbreviation is used entirely self-referentially. It is the word used for related academic, civic, political, commercial and government purposes and organizations. It is the term of choice for the community. It is how GLBT lifestyle, GLBT fashion, GLBT music, GLBT cooking, GLBT travel, GLBT fiction, GLBT law, etc. are referred to. People in the GLBT community use the word in the same way that Latter-day Saints use "LDS." Using "GLBT" is not at all analogous to saying "foreigners" instead of specifying a specific country, and to suggest this reveals a deep lack of understanding of our community. If somebody is gay, but not GLBT, I do not refer to them as GLBT. And if somebody is GLBT but not homosexual, I do not call them homosexual. Not all Gays and lesbians are GLBT, just as not all people in the GLBT community are Gays, lesbians, bisexuals or transexuals. In reference to the phrase "embrace a GLBT lifestyle," Eric D. Snider wrote: "I suspect he [Troy] had no intention of embracing a lesbian, bisexual or transsexual lifestyle." That's not what the phrase means. This is like saying an adult male who joins the Church has no intention of embracing a Relief Society, Primary or High Priest Quorum lifestyle. "GLBT lifestyle" is a perfectly acceptable phrase. Please read up on how GLBT writers use the phrase before objecting to it. >>But when you're talking about a specific person, it seems odd... Perhaps it is not the norm. That doesn't mean it is incorrect. Here is another exercise. Look up my name and state in google.com (or your favorite national phone book website): "Preston Hunter" and "Texas"... My address is no secret. I live in the heart of the Oak Lawn neighborhood: Dallas' GLBT community (not just the "gay district," because women live here too). So, yes, I am legally gay. I'm sure Eric D. Snider means well. His intentions are entirely charitable, and I'm certain he has talked to plenty of gays and lesbians. But I don't think he is part of the GLBT community. Preston Hunter - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 10:21:53 EDT From: JanaRiess@aol.com Subject: [AML] Re: DENTON, _American Massacre_ (Review) In a message dated 7/7/03 10:22:05 PM,=20 owner-aml-list-digest@lists.xmission.com writes: >Dubious claims weren't the only problem with Denton's "American >Heritage" piece. It was larded with loaded language, misrepresentation, >half-truth, and the like. Every inference from even the slimmest bit of >evidence cast the Church or Church leaders in the worst possible light. >I came away from the article shaking my head. I must have composed at >least three different letters to send to AH, but in the end let it drop. >I laughed when I read the SLTrib writer's statement that Denton's book >was a serious piece of scholarship. > >Greg Taggart Yes, there are numerous historical problems with the book. It's certainly=20 wonderfully written, however. I especially liked her episodic approach to=20 telling the story, where she chooses a few key dates leading up to the attac= k, the=20 date of the massacre itself, and then crucial dates in the aftermath, such a= s=20 Lee=92s trial and execution. I think she also raises some important points about the commercial nature of= =20 the attack. Other historians and writers have not explored this in enough=20 detail, and while I don=92t buy her notion that money was the sole reason fo= r the=20 massacre, I certainly think she was persuasive in proving it to be a=20 significant factor. My quibbles are with her tendency to read more into the historical record=20 than the evidence really warrants. If she had said, for example, that it wa= s * likely* that Brigham Young had struck a deal with the prosecutor in the John= D.=20 Lee case, since the tenor of the trial changed very dramatically at one poin= t,=20 I would be fine with that. Such a theory fits the facts. But she presents=20 the theory *as* fact, writing: Young fully realized that the Mountain Meadows Massacre would continue to=20 plague him until someone was held accountable for the crime. In a calculate= d and=20 mutually beneficial deal, Young and Howard [the prosecutor] came to terms. =20 Young would make available all witnesses and evidence necessary for a=20 conviction of Lee. In exchange, Howard would limit the testimony implicatin= g Young,=20 George Smith, and other church leaders in the affair, and drop charges again= st=20 Dame. It was an extraordinary quid pro quo that neither side apparently=20 committed to in writing. (p. 228) To back this up, she cites a page from Will Bagley=92s book, but in *his*=20 footnote he makes it clear that he is making a speculative argument that fit= s the=20 facts, since there is no written documentation. Sometimes, Denton=92s journalistic eye causes her to ignore the importance o= f=20 historical context and the origins of primary sources. For example, there= =92s a=20 wonderful legend that just before his execution, John D. Lee prophesied that= =20 Brigham Young would pay for making Lee the scapegoat, and that he (Young) wo= uld=20 be dead within six months. Well, the story is that six months to the day=20 after Lee=92s death, Young got deathly ill, likely from appendicitis. This=20= is how=20 Denton presents it as fact: "Before his death, Lee predicted that Young would follow him to the other=20 side within six months. 'If I am guilty of the crime for which I am convict= ed, I=20 will go down and never be heard from again," Lee told his family. "If I am=20 not guilty, Brigham Young will die within one year! Yes, within six months.= ' On August 23 =96 six months to the day after Lee=92s killing =96 Young gorge= d=20 himself on green corn and peaches and fell deathly ill. Over the next six d= ays he=20 languished from what was believed to be a cholera morbus, though later exper= ts=20 determined it to be an appendicitis attack . . ." (p. 238) One small math problem is that while Young did become ill on August 23, 1877= ,=20 this was five months to the day after Lee=92s March 23 execution, not six. =20= =20 But the larger issue is that she takes the legend of Lee=92s prophecy comple= tely=20 at face value. This "prophecy" was first recorded by family members *after*= =20 the death of Brigham Young, so it seems responsible to take it with a grain=20= of=20 salt at the very least. =20 Jana Riess, whose opinions are her own, and don't reflect the opinions of=20 Publishers Weekly, blah bliddy blah - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 08:40:10 -0600 From: "Brown" Subject: Re: [AML] Dealing with Our Past Harlow wrote: Not to sound crotchety, but Marilyn, please stop apologizing for writing > the scene of sexual awakening in _Ghosts of the Oquirrhs_. It's a fine > novel about an engaging group of people, and the main character is worth > reading about. Oh, dear Harlow! The genius standing by us! In a thousand years they will still be reading your essays! And maybe Hairy Stottle (very hairy), Sew Crates (Sock Rut? Ease!) and Play Dough (yum) will be standing in heaven waiting for you! Thank you, Harlow, for calling me on the line! I think you're right. I have been over-sensitive, and the result of your brilliant post is that I will stop apologizing forever. (At least TRY HARD. Bless you!) (And, after all, my next two projects are about rape and murder). I salute Harlow Clark and all of my astute friends on the list who take their sponsitility seriously to improve the quality of thought and expression among all of us. I appreciate your feedback! (And I love your father, Harlow, and have been silent and in shock all this time at his death. I have always wanted to write an astute comment praising and honoring him, and I find myself writing novels instead! But I'm almost done---page 275!) Marilyn Brown - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 13:39:45 -0400 From: Tony Markham Subject: Re: [AML] LDS-Themed Feature Film at GLBT Film Fest "R.W. Rasband" wrote: > On last weekend's re-run of "Saturday Night Live" Rachel Dratch portrayed > in a sketch "The Girl Without Gaydar" who was unsuspectingly approached by > a lesbian (played by guest host Brittany Murphy.) "I'd like to take you > to Salt Lake City," purred Murphy, thus confirming that SLC has a lesbian > underground famous enough to attract the notice of late-night comedy > writers from New York City. And if you happen to catch the SLC episode of Comedy Central's show by Dave Atell called "Insomniac," you won't be able to help but notice the late-night lesbians. Tony Markham - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 23:20:50 -0500 From: Jonathan Langford Subject: [AML] Volunteers Needed for AML-List Moderator Group Folks, I'm in the process of trying to set up a system that will offload part of my responsibilities as moderator, by bringing in "screening moderators." The way this system will (ideally) work is that the screening moderator will read all submitted messages and post them to the list. Any message that may raise a question related to AML-List guidelines, however, will be referred back to me as the main moderator to handle. Training to serve as an assistant moderator involves membership in a "moderator group" that receives copies of the messages I send to list members requesting revisions to their posts or explaining why a post doesn't work on AML-List. I also poll members of the moderator group from time to time on how to handle difficult issues, although I as moderator retain the final say. I'd like to invite anyone who would be interested in participating in this group to email me at this address. Thank you all for your help. Jonathan Langford AML-List Moderator - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 13:43:51 -0700 From: "Jeff Needle" Subject: RE: [AML] DENTON, _American Massacre_ (Revised Review) Gladly, but there isn't a decent piece of lox in the surrounding 20 miles. Oy, what I'd give for a bagel, lox and cream cheese. - ---------------- Jeffrey Needle jeff.needle@general.com (or, if there's a bounce) jeffneedle@tns.net > -----Original Message----- > Jeff Needle: > "Sheesh, Will Bagel..." > > Me: > Maybe it was a subconcious Jewish stomach talking, Jeff...you'd better > quit reading and go eat... > > Kim Madsen - -- AML-List, a mailing list for the discussion of Mormon literature ------------------------------ End of aml-list-digest V2 #100 ******************************