From: Rich Thomson Subject: (associates) Senior Associates mailing list on death's door Date: 17 Oct 2000 13:26:31 -0600 Hi, The Senior Associates mailing list that I created here at xmission will soon close, unless people start actively using it. This list never really took off because Foresight never really bothered to tell anyone about the list and the few people who did know about it never really started any discussions here. Its rather disappointing to me personally that Foresight chose to put so much energy into things like "palace chat" and so-on rather than pursue the main "internet killer app" format of a mailing list. Perhaps I'm just a technology laggard, but things like crit and nanodot just don't spark as much interest in me as a relatively "low tech" mailing list. Its very trendy tehse days to webify all possible interaction with the computer, but this isn't necessarily a good thing. My intent in creating this mailing list was to provide a forum where SAs could discuss nanotechnology issues in a dufus-free forum (i.e. we wouldn't have to spend lots of energies explaining why nanotech is feasible and/or probable in the near future). Public forums on nanotech always seem to suffer from the dufus factor and it was my additional hope that this forum would allow for cogent discussions among SAs themselves before/after group meetings and so-on. However, this list can't go anywhere if Foresight isn't interested in telling Senior Associates about its existence -- I don't have a list of all the SAs mail addresses in order to tell them myself. AFAIK it hasn't ever been mentioned in any of Eric's letters to SAs nor is it ever mentioned at any of the gatherings or on any of Foresight's literature sent to SAs. That pretty much guarantees that noone will use it since they remain ignorant of its existence. So unless those few of you who are on this list start using it as a forum for discussion among SAs, I will close this list in the next few weeks. -- Rich - To unsubscribe from associates, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe associates" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jack Powers" Subject: Re: (associates) Senior Associates mailing list on death's door Date: 17 Oct 2000 21:52:32 -0700 Rich- Maybe I'm just an old fart, but I agree. Maybe some journalist will try to explain why technology whizzed by us. For me, text=ideas, I haven't found time to experience ideas in new clothes. I was hoping this list would blossom, but it has been disappointing so far. Jack Powers ----- Original Message ----- Cc: "Chris Peterson" Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2000 12:26 PM > > Hi, > > The Senior Associates mailing list that I created here at xmission > will soon close, unless people start actively using it. > > This list never really took off because Foresight never really > bothered to tell anyone about the list and the few people who did know > about it never really started any discussions here. > > Its rather disappointing to me personally that Foresight chose to > put so much energy into things like "palace chat" and so-on rather > than pursue the main "internet killer app" format of a mailing list. > Perhaps I'm just a technology laggard, but things like crit and > nanodot just don't spark as much interest in me as a relatively "low > tech" mailing list. Its very trendy tehse days to webify all > possible interaction with the computer, but this isn't necessarily a > good thing. > > My intent in creating this mailing list was to provide a forum where > SAs could discuss nanotechnology issues in a dufus-free forum (i.e. > we wouldn't have to spend lots of energies explaining why nanotech is > feasible and/or probable in the near future). Public forums on > nanotech always seem to suffer from the dufus factor and it was my > additional hope that this forum would allow for cogent discussions > among SAs themselves before/after group meetings and so-on. > > However, this list can't go anywhere if Foresight isn't interested in > telling Senior Associates about its existence -- I don't have a list > of all the SAs mail addresses in order to tell them myself. AFAIK it > hasn't ever been mentioned in any of Eric's letters to SAs nor is it > ever mentioned at any of the gatherings or on any of Foresight's > literature sent to SAs. That pretty much guarantees that noone will > use it since they remain ignorant of its existence. > > So unless those few of you who are on this list start using it as a > forum for discussion among SAs, I will close this list in the next few > weeks. > > -- Rich > > > - > To unsubscribe from associates, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" > with "unsubscribe associates" in the body of the message. > For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send > "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. > - To unsubscribe from associates, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe associates" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Maxts@aol.com Subject: Re: (associates) Senior Associates mailing list on death's door Date: 18 Oct 2000 11:24:27 EDT Hi Rich: Yeah, this is a sad thing. Personally, I tried to get onto the email list some weeks ago with no luck. As I recall, I sent a note saying that I wasn't receiving any posts. I assumed I had done something incorrectly. I'm not sure what the "dufus factor" is, but I wouldn't be surprised if I qualify as one of the dufuses (dufi?). I have no background in programming or even a secondary education, but I've read extensively in nanotech litrature and I had hoped that as an interested layman I could provide a different perspective. I can't understand why a forum such as this didn't take off. Anyway, I'm still here and still interested in case something comes of it. Thanx for the note. Randy Means Sunnyvale, CA 408/ 732-9951 - To unsubscribe from associates, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe associates" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rich Thomson Subject: Re: (associates) Senior Associates mailing list on death's door Date: 18 Oct 2000 09:44:27 -0600 In article <3f.b84115b.271f1aab@aol.com>, Maxts@aol.com writes: > [...] I'm not > sure what the "dufus factor" is, but I wouldn't be surprised if I qualify as > one of the dufuses (dufi?). If you're a senior associate then you're interested enough in nanotech to not qualify as a dufus ;-). By "dufus factor" I was referring to the kinds of nonsense arguments that say nanotech is physically impossible -- the kinds of arguments that caused Drexler to write Nanosystems. An example of someone I'd lump into the dufus category would be someone like Jeremy Rifkin who manages to write an entire book predicting doom and gloom for the earth and its ecosystems because he doesn't understand the 2nd law of thermodynamics and he treats the earth as a closed system. > I have no background in programming or even a > secondary education, but I've read extensively in nanotech litrature and I > had hoped that as an interested layman I could provide a different > perspective. I'm not an ivory tower academic and I believe that every human being could contribute usefully to the debate. Just because they could doesn't mean that they will, of course. There are people who are very well educated and intelligent yet still propose absolutely naive solutions -- Bill Joy is the most recent high-profile example. > I can't understand why a forum such as this didn't take off. My personal view is that competing "cool" pet projects at Foresight kept something as mundane as a mailing list from being pursued. Internet mail isn't "cool" or "sexy" or one of the latest round of technologies that the hype machine has latched onto and is promoting as if it were the best thing since sliced bread. However, mail is the ubiquitous internet "killer app" that people often cite as the single application of the network from which they derive the most value. Sure, its nice to have all kinds of information at your fingertips via the web, but while libraries of information are nice -- direct communication with other human beings is always better. > Anyway, I'm still here and still interested in case something comes of it. Perhaps my "do or die" challenge will result in something more than a metadiscussion of the list's death ;-). I can't make people use this list and I can't make them talk about nanotech here and those who know me personally realize that even if I could "make" people do these things that I wouldn't exercise that power anyway. -- Rich - To unsubscribe from associates, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe associates" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Steven C. Vetter" Subject: (associates) Suggestion for getting the word out Date: 18 Oct 2000 23:03:27 -0500 Rich, How about posting an announcement and invite in Nanodot? Many people read multiple media / forums and may see the utility of having more than one venue for discussion. As a tip, I would stay away from bashing other forums, and just politely state the unique values of an email listserv. Steve Steven C. Vetter President Molecular Manufacturing Enterprises, Inc. 9653 Wellington Lane Saint Paul, MN 55125 - To unsubscribe from associates, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe associates" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rich Thomson Subject: Re: (associates) Suggestion for getting the word out Date: 19 Oct 2000 10:20:17 -0600 In article , "Steven C. Vetter" writes: > How about posting an announcement and invite in Nanodot? Because Nanodot is a public forum, not senior associates. I'm not interested in maintaining a list for public nanotechnology discussion. There's already sci.nanotech and other publicly available nanotechnology discussion lists. My original purpose in starting this list was to have a forum for Foresight SAs to discuss nanotech and act as a "virtual gathering place" between the physical gatherings. The discussion between SAs that takes place at a physical gathering has always been the best part of a gaterhing and my hope was to extend that atmosphere online. Obviously this can't take place without Foresight's support, which never came for whatever reason. > As a tip, I would stay away from bashing other forums, and just politely > state the unique values of an email listserv. Technologies, organizations, and people have positive and negative aspects. I do not believe that the future is best served by only mentioning the positive ones. This is also at the core of Foresight's goals: they don't *only* talk about the positive benefits of nanotech, but feel it is just as important to discuss the negatives. Miss Manners may say that it is best to only talk about the positives, but the end result is that the negatives remain unknown to many people. I'd rather have a negative honest evaluation of myself, or any of my works than a polite whitewashing that leaves me in a self-deluded state of perfection. - To unsubscribe from associates, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe associates" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rich Thomson Subject: Re: (associates) Suggestion for getting the word out Date: 19 Oct 2000 10:20:17 -0600 In article , "Steven C. Vetter" writes: > How about posting an announcement and invite in Nanodot? Because Nanodot is a public forum, not senior associates. I'm not interested in maintaining a list for public nanotechnology discussion. There's already sci.nanotech and other publicly available nanotechnology discussion lists. My original purpose in starting this list was to have a forum for Foresight SAs to discuss nanotech and act as a "virtual gathering place" between the physical gatherings. The discussion between SAs that takes place at a physical gathering has always been the best part of a gaterhing and my hope was to extend that atmosphere online. Obviously this can't take place without Foresight's support, which never came for whatever reason. > As a tip, I would stay away from bashing other forums, and just politely > state the unique values of an email listserv. Technologies, organizations, and people have positive and negative aspects. I do not believe that the future is best served by only mentioning the positive ones. This is also at the core of Foresight's goals: they don't *only* talk about the positive benefits of nanotech, but feel it is just as important to discuss the negatives. Miss Manners may say that it is best to only talk about the positives, but the end result is that the negatives remain unknown to many people. I'd rather have a negative honest evaluation of myself, or any of my works than a polite whitewashing that leaves me in a self-deluded state of perfection. - To unsubscribe from associates, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe associates" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pat Gratton" Subject: (associates) Guardian, Commercial and Idealist Ethical Syndromes Date: 20 Oct 2000 16:35:31 -0500 Well, since Rich is encouraging people to use this list, I'll go ahead and send out a message on it. I tend to think that this message would be better suited to a Foresight Senior Associates lists than to Nanodot, but Nanodot is better publicized, so I am also posting to it (though it make take it a while to appear - and it's a bit more sociological/ethical than usually appears on Nanodot, so it might be rejected for editorial reasons). The first two ethical syndromes listed in the subject are described in "Systems of Survival" by Jane Jacobs. The third syndrome is my own contribution (though it is strongly inspired by the description of Open-Source/Hacker culture described by Eric Raymond in "Homesteading the Noosphere".) I argue that Jacobs missed a third syndrome, which I call the Idealist Syndrome: http://www.grist.org/articles/00.10.19_Idealist_Syndrome.html I use the categorization of these three syndromes to characterize members of organizations interested in transformational technologies: http://www.grist.org/articles/00.10.19_Transtech_Ethical_Syndromes.html I welcome comments and suggestions regarding either of these two papers. If you're not familiar with Systems of Survival, you can find the book here: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679748164 and a brief summary and review here: http://www.grist.org/articles/00.10.19_Systems_of_Survival.html http://leaderu.com/ftissues/ft9312/glendon.html ..Pat -- Pat Gratton, Ph.D., gratton@pobox.com - To unsubscribe from associates, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe associates" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas L Mc Kendree" Subject: Re: (associates) Guardian, Commercial and Idealist Ethical Syndromes Date: 20 Oct 2000 16:45:31 -0700 Pat Gratton, Ph.D., gratton@pobox.com wrote: >I argue that Jacobs missed a third syndrome, which I call the >Idealist Syndrome: > http://www.grist.org/articles/00.10.19_Idealist_Syndrome.html > >I use the categorization of these three syndromes to characterize >members of organizations interested in transformational technologies: > http://www.grist.org/articles/00.10.19_Transtech_Ethical_Syndromes.html I've looked at both, and they are both interesting. Your "Idealist Ethical Syndrome" is definitely an ethical point of view of many people, so it's probably ok to call it a syndrome. I suspect, however, that it may not be a "System of Survival." The central question a system of survival has to answer is how do the follower's of the syndrome get the resources they need to survive (and propogate)? [Note, the answer has to really work; it need not necessarily be articulated.] I think this "IES" might be similar to what I call the "super-engineer" point of view. Basically, it's a strong focus on the technical aspect of designing/making something, combined with a strong distaste for "the real world." This means that things having to operate in context, rather than in a world optimized for your design, the fact that costs matter, and that trade-offs on non-technical criteria are real, are typically despised. Lots of Microsoft-haters fall into this camp. So do people who believe that all medical decisions must be resource blind. OTOH, when an idealist can actually focus on realizing his ideal, the results can be quite spectacularly good. [This suggests to me that maybe it should be called the "Artist Ethical Syndrome."] I also doubt "Shun Trading" and "Shun Comfort" are quite right. It might be more accurate to say "Ignore [Do Not Focus On] Trading and Comfort," and certainly there is no hestitation in buying the right tools, when one has the money. Tom McKendree tmckendree@west.raytheon.com P.S. Your summary of _Systems of Survival_, at http://www.grist.org/articles/00.10.19_Systems_of_Survival.html accidentally has "Guardian Moral Syndrome" as the title for "Commercial Moral Syndrome." - To unsubscribe from associates, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe associates" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pat Gratton" Subject: Re: (associates) Guardian, Commercial and Idealist Ethical Syndromes Date: 21 Oct 2000 00:18:14 -0500 Thomas McKendree says: > >I argue that Jacobs missed a third syndrome, which I call the > >Idealist Syndrome: > > http://www.grist.org/articles/00.10.19_Idealist_Syndrome.html > > > >I use the categorization of these three syndromes to characterize > >members of organizations interested in transformational technologies: > > http://www.grist.org/articles/00.10.19_Transtech_Ethical_Syndromes.html > > I've looked at both, and they are both interesting. Your "Idealist > Ethical Syndrome" is definitely an ethical point of view of many people, > so it's probably ok to call it a syndrome. I suspect, however, that it > may not be a "System of Survival." The central question a system of > survival has to answer is how do the follower's of the syndrome get the > resources they need to survive (and propogate)? [Note, the answer has to > really work; it need not necessarily be articulated.] SoS, p21, Arbruster says, "I propose our first report should simply aim at identifying our system or systems of moral behavior concerned with work." There's a bit of ambiguity in this proposition, since idealism is generally not successful economically - however, the activity that artists, scientists, etc. engage in is clearly "work". So, the Idealist Sydrome is definitely the sort of thing that Jacobs was looking for. However, it's true that the focus of the Idealist is not survival - which only means that this conclusion of Jacobs is incorrect (i.e., it's not true that all ethical systems for work focus on survival), which in turn means that she picked the wrong title for the book! Or maybe she did pick the right title... While the idealist syndrome doesn't generally pay off for the *idealist*, it does pay off for the *culture* (so long as not too many people are engaged in idealistic pursuits). The histories of science are filled with stories of scientists who died impoverished, but contributed great scientific or mathematical advances - which eventually generated great commercial benefit. Journalism is generally a poorly paid profession, but the openness that it brings is also of great benefit to our culture. So, there's a pretty good argument that Idealism is a survival system - for the culture. > I think this "IES" might be similar to what I call the "super-engineer" > point of view. Basically, it's a strong focus on the technical aspect > of designing/making something, combined with a strong distaste for "the > real world." This means that things having to operate in context, rather > than in a world optimized for your design, the fact that costs matter, > and that trade-offs on non-technical criteria are real, are typically > despised. Lots of Microsoft-haters fall into this camp. So do people > who believe that all medical decisions must be resource blind. OTOH, > when an idealist can actually focus on realizing his ideal, the results > can be quite spectacularly good. [This suggests to me that maybe it should > be called the "Artist Ethical Syndrome."] Excellent examples! Note that television writers (who very likely to be idealists) tend to focus on the idealist aspects of other professions: medicine, law, policing, etc.. (I'm overstating my case here slightly - television produces what sells - and portrayals of idealism sell well.) I agree that idealists can make spectacular commercial (and guardian) breakthroughs. Idealism can provide a much greather focus and endurance than commercial and guardian ethics, and thus can sometimes produce spectacular breakthroughs. Interesting point though - achieving such success may actually repel the idealist, driving him to another field or topic. The reason for the repulsion is that the field or topic is now tainted by trading and/or force applications. (I think that ample examples of this phenomena can be found.) I originally called the syndrome "Artistic", but switched to "Idealist" since this term is more generic (e.g., journalism lacks the creativity that characterizes art - but clearly follows the same mindset). > I also doubt "Shun Trading" and "Shun Comfort" are quite right. It might > be more accurate to say "Ignore [Do Not Focus On] Trading and Comfort," I think that the imperative is clearly stronger than "don't focus on". In this mentality, there's a clear scorn rather than indiference to money. I think that I could pick numerous examples, but here's a few: - The reaction of the open-source community to intrusion of commercial interests. - I saw some quite beautiful collages in a coffee shop in Fremont (and usually despise collages - these were *that* good). Next them the collages was a small note from the artist - apparently he had received offers to buy the collages, but had turned the offers down because he did not feel that his work was mature yet. (If he were merely 'not focussing' on trading, then he would have accepted.) - Jacobs relates the message of "The Gift" by Lewis Hyde as, "His thesis is that the artist has been blessed with special gifts, with talents. He bestows these on the community as a gifts. He should receive in turn, pure gifts." This is clearly shunning of trade. A similar attitude appears in the open-source community in discussion of Gift Economies. > and certainly there is no hestitation in buying the right tools, when one > has the money. Agreed, but when he has no money, then stealing the tools may be considered to be justified as well. Interesting case in point: Graffitti is often recognized as art - art that by definition requires the theft of a sorts (namely of the wall to paint on). ..Pat > P.S. Your summary of _Systems of Survival_, at > http://www.grist.org/articles/00.10.19_Systems_of_Survival.html > accidentally has "Guardian Moral Syndrome" as the title for > "Commercial Moral Syndrome." Thanks. Fixed. - To unsubscribe from associates, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe associates" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas L Mc Kendree" Subject: Re: (associates) Guardian, Commercial and Idealist Ethical Syndromes Date: 25 Oct 2000 15:06:31 -0700 --0__=61Q9lFTWoCbjMtgeRqkr7jjUjEWrBXNWmlkrTUcydwgV7tQBiTjXJLoU Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii For those arguing the relative merits of this list, I just tried to submit a post to nanodot on the discussion of ethical syndromes, but it choked on the table I wanted to supply. I tried to line up the alleged characteristics of the three syndromes, and fill in the obvious holes. Since nanodot didn't work, I'm sending it out here. 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