From: owner-buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com (buffy-digest) To: buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: buffy-digest V2 #61 Reply-To: buffy@xmission.com Sender: owner-buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk buffy-digest Monday, January 26 1998 Volume 02 : Number 061 In this issue: Fwd: BUFFY: Angel's SOP BUFFY:Vamp patents? RE: BUFFY: BAD Angel! BAD! BAD! No biscuit! BUFFY: Buffy Screen Saver?? Re: BUFFY: Status Among Vamps RE: BUFFY: BAD Angel! BAD! BAD! No biscuit! Re: BUFFY:Vamp patents? Re: BUFFY: Status Among Vamps BUFFY: oops - forgot my name on that one BUFFY: Angel's reflection? Re: BUFFY: BAD Angel! BAD! BAD! No biscuit! Re: BUFFY: Re: Curses BUFFY: Keepers Re: BUFFY: Keepers BUFFY: On souls and Angel.... Re: BUFFY: BAD Angel! BAD! BAD! No biscuit! BUFFY: Attention East Coast Buffy fans BUFFY: the pager question Re: BUFFY:Vamp patents? BUFFY: Oz a Watcher??? BUFFY: 3rd try of 2 parter thoughts See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the buffy or buffy-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 20:45:24 EST From: Courtjes5 Subject: Fwd: BUFFY: Angel's SOP This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --part0_885692724_boundary Content-ID: <0_885692724@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII - --part0_885692724_boundary Content-ID: <0_885692724@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline From: Courtjes5 Return-path: To: HU3RHEA2@aol.com Subject: Re: BUFFY: Angel's SOP Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 19:03:33 EST Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit HU3RHEA2@aol.com said: <> Well, in LtM, Buffy told Ford that "vamps are pretty choosy about who they change over". And before that (still in LtM, though), Spike said to Ford, "I just met you and I can't stand you. I really don't feature you living forever." Vamps probably spend some quality time deciding who gets to be a vamp and who just dies. (Seems to be Angel's mo.) I mean, really, since vamps pretty much hang together, would you want someone you didn't like living forever? (Well, maybe if you get to gouge their eyes out like Dru does ;) _CJ_ courtjes5@aol.com - --part0_885692724_boundary-- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 20:49:38 EST From: Courtjes5 Subject: BUFFY:Vamp patents? When Buffy told Giles about her dream that Dru was still alive, he said he'd look in his books and she if she had "any particular patents". I'm thinking this is like their mo or trademark...whatta ya guys think? It seems that Spike's involved railroad spikes, Angel's involved making people crazy....Dru could have a particular way of killing/vamping people... Just my thoughts.... _CJ_ courtjes5@aol.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 21:32:57 -0500 From: "Zelda (K)ordelia Lee" Subject: RE: BUFFY: BAD Angel! BAD! BAD! No biscuit! > You just made a really good point about Angel breathing, in "innocence" = > he was smoking and looked to breathing just fine i totally don't get = > that if he doesn't breath he doesn't breath right? well anyway if anyone = > has any logical explanation do tell..... Oh no... It couldn't be... how can I pass it up? Oh, it's just too good to be true... :: weeping with joy :: Ready? :: clearing throat :: *********** He didn't inhale. *********** :: scampering away very fast chortling maniacally :: ZK zklee@huskynet.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 21:32:40 EST From: TopazRose1 Subject: BUFFY: Buffy Screen Saver?? Does anyone know where I can get a Buffy The Vampire Slayer Screen Saver that works with Windows 3.1?? I have looked everywhere for one. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 21:37:57 EST From: Courtjes5 Subject: Re: BUFFY: Status Among Vamps Mia said: <> I think maybe the game face thing has something to do w/age (except in the Master's case). It seems Angel, Dru, Spike, (and I think Darla could) are pretty much able to change game face at will. Although actually, we've only seen Dru in game face, like 3x -- in WML2 @ the end & in both of Buffy's dreams. (And aside from Angel's thing in Angel, RB, Halloween, & WML1, but he may have chosen to change in RB & Halloween for scare factor.) So, if you have followed my thought process (probably not, I can't even! :), I'm saying the oldest vamps -- Darla, who made Angel, who made Spike, who made Dru, who has to be at least 100, making all the others in the 100-300YO range -- have more power, and therefore more ability to change face than the younger vamps. And also, they shouldn't go as many places completely vamped out because they're more of a vamp asset since they've lived so long. And another thing -- in Suprise, when Angel & Buffy were kissing by the door (before they started talking about "seeing you at bedtime"), he kissed her neck--if that didn't make him vamp out, what should? Besides touching Buffy's cut, open or not. That's just my thoughts. _CJ_ courtjes5@aol.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 21:42:15 -0500 From: "Zelda (K)ordelia Lee" Subject: RE: BUFFY: BAD Angel! BAD! BAD! No biscuit! At 04:42 PM 1/24/98 -0500, Marcus Urann wrote: >I never got the impression that the vampires, spike and others, had any >use for what they were in their mortal lives. Didn't! Didn't didn't didn't! I did! > And Angel treated Drusilla as the girl that he drove > insane, not as some demon who has been using that girl's body for a century or two. Ah, but here we come back to the dichotomy vs. trichotomy question of the soul. Is a person body/soul, or body/mind/soul? If we're using the trichotomy theology of the soul, then only Dru's *soul* would be gone. The demon would get her mind and body. So her insanity, residing in the mind, would be part of the package. It brings up another point about the nature of evil - if we're using trichotomy, then Angel's crimes are crimes of the mind, not of the soul, since that's gone. That implies that evil resides in the mind, rather than as part of a person's spirit. But most religions assign evil to the soul, not to the mind, and we still maintain a societal definition of evil as residing in the soul. If evil is indeed a part of the mind, then if we remove that part of the brain, or alter it in some way, wouldn't the evil person become good? Unless, of course, that the demon is in itself a soul, or souls, and replaces the soul of the host. ZK zklee@huskynet.com "The knowledge of good and evil is ... removable" -- Sir Julian Freke, "Whose Body?", Dorothy L. Sayers, 1928. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 21:57:24 -0500 From: "Ryan Harrington" Subject: Re: BUFFY:Vamp patents? I was led to believe he said patterns and not patents. tht would make a little more sense. It seasy to mkae mistakes though. I though t in school hard spike said he fell off a flower person when he really said he fed off one. - -ryanh - -----Original Message----- From: Courtjes5 To: buffy@xmission.com Date: Saturday, January 24, 1998 8:56 PM Subject: BUFFY:Vamp patents? >When Buffy told Giles about her dream that Dru was still alive, he said he'd >look in his books and she if she had "any particular patents". I'm thinking >this is like their mo or trademark...whatta ya guys think? It seems that >Spike's involved railroad spikes, Angel's involved making people crazy....Dru >could have a particular way of killing/vamping people... > >Just my thoughts.... > >_CJ_ courtjes5@aol.com > >- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 21:00:44 -0600 (CST) From: Theda Bara Subject: Re: BUFFY: Status Among Vamps On Sat, 24 Jan 1998, Courtjes5 wrote: > Mia said: > Darla, who made Angel, who made Spike, who made Dru, I believe that Angel made Dru, who made Spike. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 21:02:15 -0600 (CST) From: Theda Bara Subject: BUFFY: oops - forgot my name on that one Theda Bara vampirew@acs.stritch.edu There, all is now right. - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 21:57:53 EST From: Courtjes5@aol.com Subject: BUFFY: Angel's reflection? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --part0_885697073_boundary Content-ID: <0_885697073@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII - --part0_885697073_boundary Content-ID: <0_885697073@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline From: Courtjes5@aol.com Return-path: To: buffy@xmisison.com Subject: BUFFY: Angel's reflection? Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 21:57:04 EST Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Did anyone else notice in Innocence that when Angel walked into the uncle's hotel room, he was casting a reflection in the mirror. Because the uncle saw Angel in the mirror before he turned around, didn't he? Or am I just wacked??? _CJ_ courtjes5@aol.com - --part0_885697073_boundary-- - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 22:06:15 From: Theodore Jay Miller Subject: Re: BUFFY: BAD Angel! BAD! BAD! No biscuit! At 09:42 PM 1/24/98 -0500, Zelda Lee wrote: >>I never got the impression that the vampires, spike and others, had any >>use for what they were in their mortal lives. Apologies for misattributing this line before. >The demon would get her mind and body. So her insanity, residing in the >mind, would be part of the package. I wasn't referring to Drusilla now being insane, but to Angel's attitude toward her. He treated Drusilla as the girl whose life he'd ruined, whose family he'd killed, who he drove insane and turned into a vampire. Rather than treating her as some demon who was using that girl's body and has access to her memories. At 09:53 PM 1/24/98 EST, CatDancer8 wrote: >If anyone remembers, in Lie To Me, Buffy reveals the whole concept of >vampires. You die, and a demon sets up shop in your old house, and it >walks, and it talks, and it remembers your life, but it's not you. Again, that's the Watchers' view, which Buffy got from Giles. I was just trying to show how the vampires don't always seem to see it that way. Theodore Jay Miller tedjmill@mindspring.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 21:26:16 -0600 (CST) From: Theda Bara Subject: Re: BUFFY: Re: Curses On Sat, 24 Jan 1998, I told you...[Shoots Nazis]...don't call me Junior! - Indiana Jones wrote: > Some can have sex with > humans and spawn dhyperes (spelling is probably off.) hybred of human and > vamp. Others are just soul less wandering monsters looking for their According to _The_Vampire_Book:_The_Encyclopedia_of_the_Undead_ by J. Gordon Melton under "Dhampir" "Gypsies believed that some vampires have an insatiable sexual appitie and will return from the grave to have sex with their widow or a young woman of their choosing. The vampire's continued visits could lead to the woman becoming pregnant. The product of such a union, usually a male, was called a dhampir. It was believed that the dhampir had unusual powers for detecting and destroying the vampire--a most important ability. Some modern dhampirs among the Gypsies of eastern Europe placed most of their value in their ability to locate the vampire, which was simply shot with a pistol if located outside of its grave. Some individuals believed to be dhampirs supplemented their income by hiring themselves out as vampire hunters. The dhampir was otherwise a normal member of the Gypsy community, though some people believe that a true dhampir possessed a slippery, jelly-like body and lived only a short life--a belief derived from the understanding that vampires have no bones. "The powers of the dhampir could be passed to a male offspring, and ultimately through a family line. While vampire hunting abilities could be inherited, they could not be learned. Scott Baker wrote a novel about dhampirs that tied them to a dhampir lineage within the family of Elizabeth Bathory." Now, about this big debate about Angel's soul. I think that it is getting way to metaphysical and mystical. First off, has anyone ever seen evidence that they have a soul? Has anyone ever seen a soul, or someone with a soul? How about someone without one? A soul is not something we can see. You may have seen someone without one and not even know it - some atheists don't believe in a "soul" and therefore would not have one, or would they? Either way, there is no known way to differentiate between a soul- or souless-person. It's not something you can detect, so you shouldn't be able to detect if it's missing, either. That doesn't mean ther aren't any effects - I can remove all the oxygen from a room, and you won't see it, but if you enter the room you will find out soon enough. It just means that you aren't going to see it. And it isn't the only thing in the room, either - the space may still be full of nitrogen, carbon dioxide, hydrogen, and other trace gasses (i.e. all of the other things that make Angel/Angelus who he is), so there IS air (and there IS Angel/Angelus). Does that make sense? Also, I don't think that a person is inhabited by a seperate entity that is a demon (the sort you can cast out and have it gone), but by a power that is demonic in nature. Therefore, those who have the power become themselves demonic, since their powers are what make demons demons. And about the reflection thing: I was under the impression that Jenny's uncle thought that Angel and co. were Jenny and Buffy, so I don't think he is supossed to be aware of any reflection that may appear in the scene. Theda Bara vampirew@acs.stritch.edu - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 14:11:21 +1100 From: "jamiec" Subject: BUFFY: Keepers Hi, what does it mean when people put things like "keeper of Buffy's duct tape" after their email? Jamie - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 20:25:58 -0800 From: Lisa Rose Subject: Re: BUFFY: Keepers At 02:11 PM 1/25/98 +1100, jamiec wrote: >what does it mean when people put things like "keeper of Buffy's duct tape" >after their email? Jamie "Keeping" is when fans symbolically "take care" of items (or qualities) that characters possess on the show. It's a way of showing appreciation. For more information go to the main Keeper Index at: http://www.wco.com/~cybrpaws/keepindx.html Click on "Archangel's Keeper Tips" and read those first. Then click on the various character keeper links. It should become pretty clear. This has been a Public Service Keeper Announcement, Lisa - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 98 23:58:42 PST From: aclaybor@busprod.com (Amy Clayborn) Subject: BUFFY: On souls and Angel.... Is it possible that the demon just invades the body of its host and just takes over the body and soul? Perhaps the soul is just trapped deep inside the vampire and the demon controls it, and the soul is basically dormant. I have heard some vamp legends that say that killing a vampire kills the demon and frees the person's soul. In that case, Angel soul was made predominant while the demon still existed inside him. That caused a paradox of mixed feelings; guilt for his past actions and the conscience not to kill humans to feed, yet his vamp hunger is still there, and he has to deal with that. Truly a tortured soul. The impulse to NEED to kill, and the conscience that will not let him follow that impulse. This makes more sense to me than anything else. How could Angel's 'soul' be restored to him if it died when he became a vampire and went to heaven? I don't think that even gypsy curses can reverse the judgement of God, if you believe in that sort of thing. It just makes more sense that the soul was always there to start with. That is why killing vamps is merciful, because you are freeing the person's soul to go wherever it needs to go....that's my take anyway.... Sapphire - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 98 00:09:33 PST From: aclaybor@busprod.com (Amy Clayborn) Subject: Re: BUFFY: BAD Angel! BAD! BAD! No biscuit! WEll, techinically he wasn't smoking, he had jsut sucked that girl dry = and SHE had been smoking.... the smoke I think was supposed to be what he inhaled, and it went into = his mouth. Can we say *EEEEEWWWWW* ?? The sound effects during that were grotesque.... - ---------- > You just made a really good point about Angel breathing, in "innocence"= he was > smoking and looked to breathing just fine i totally don't get that if = he > doesn't breath he doesn't breath right? well anyway if anyone has any = logical > explanation do tell..... - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 01:45:51 -0500 From: servobot Subject: BUFFY: Attention East Coast Buffy fans Do you like Buffy The Vampire Slayer? Do you live in the Eastern Time Zone? Ever wanted to join a Buffy fan club? Ever ripped off a liquor store? Do you like whipped cream sprayed onto your-- Wait a minute. If the answers to the first three questions are yes, go to: www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/7427 =09 and join the BuffyCrew. We need your votes, my friends, the only way we = can get castmembers out in this neck of the wasteland is to unify, so = let's all play Norma Raye and do our parts. Join the Buffycrew! So visit the site, look around, sign up. Who knows, you may find a = Buffy fan in your own city, or relatively close to you. Friendships can = be begun, bonds may be formed, and for once in this stinking cesspool we = call life, things might be happy for awhile. So secure our collective contentment. If you're in the right time zone, = let your voice be heard, say your barbaric yawp! Jeff - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 01:46:14 EST From: Jyinyang Subject: BUFFY: the pager question Most high school students aren't allowed to but there are special occasions, like when a student has a note from a parent. I'm pretty sure that Buffy was able to find a way around it. Anyhow, just because students aren't allowed to doesn't mean that they don't. After all, how many students carry crossbows around school? Joce - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 00:35:54 -0600 From: BRIDGET QUINN Subject: Re: BUFFY:Vamp patents? Hi. I think Giles actually said "patterns" not patents. His lovely British accents can be tricky at times. *grin* Bridget scotlore@earthlink.net Courtjes5 wrote: > > When Buffy told Giles about her dream that Dru was still alive, he said he'd > look in his books and she if she had "any particular patents". I'm thinking > this is like their mo or trademark...whatta ya guys think? It seems that > Spike's involved railroad spikes, Angel's involved making people crazy....Dru > could have a particular way of killing/vamping people... > > Just my thoughts.... > > _CJ_ courtjes5@aol.com > > - - - ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 02:18:51 -0500 (EST) From: maxvl@iname.com Subject: BUFFY: Oz a Watcher??? Am I overly suspicious, or is Oz just a little bit TOO good to be true? Sensitive, perceptive, insightful, caring, and noble. Let's review a little. We know that Oz has been observing shy Willow from afar for a few episodes. Perhaps, being perceptive and insightful, he figures out that she is interested in him. Somehow it naturally develops that Willow invites him to a surprise birthday party for her friend Buffy. OK, nothing wrong with that. Oz goes to the party for this girl he apparently hardly knows, and she makes her entrance by being thrown through the wall by an unknown force outside. She then commits an apparent ("to the casual observer") homocide, the victim of which immediately disintegrates to ashes. Oz' reaction to this event is to simply ask if the others have observed the victim turn to dust. Really, about the minimal reaction that one could expect from an innocent stranger at some most unusual proceedings! Hmmm. Enough though to draw a quick admission from Xander that vampires are real and Sunnydale is full of them. "That explains a lot", Oz replies. (Explains a lot of WHAT? Has perceptive, insightful Oz seen a lot of evidence of vampiric activity, but not figured it out until Xander spoke?) Shortly, Willow recruits him to take Xander, Cordelia, and her to the army base. She must have told him that they were going to steal a weapon, because he casually asks her if they steal stuff from the army often. Now try to imagine what went on off-screen. Will must have told him that they had a really good reason to do it, and no doubt told him about the Judge. The interesting thing is that he must have ageed with hardly any discussion. Most insightful and caring guys would have argued with Willow about being asked to participate in a felony! Not only for his own sake, but also out of concern for her welfare. But no, he goes along on this illegal adventure with hardly a concern. He does ask a leading question about how many of these thefts they may have performed in the past. Hmmm. A little late to be asking about the character of the gang he has already joined. After they get the weapon, he joins the Slayer and her cohort (he has the van, after all) in seeking out the Judge at Spike's warehouse. The Judge is not there, so the gang decides to go seek him at the Bronze. But insightful Oz says he knows where HE would go instead. It turned out to be a really good guess, from a person who had only the vaguest knowledge of demonic activity in Sunnydale only a few hours before. Interestingly, there was someone at the warehouse who did know where the Judge could be found, namely Spike, who was hiding there for reasons that so far have not had a dramatic purpose. Naturally, Spike wanted the Slayer to find the Judge. The sooner the better, from his viewpoint. But Spike could hardly speak out, with Buffy in a really bad mood. But if Oz were an ally of the vampires, Spike could have signalled him somehow during the moments of confusion about where to find the Judge. Hmmm. I have to conclude, that Oz is either a mole, spying for the vampires, or, like Jenny/Jana, is another watcher. If the latter, who is he watching, and why? What do you folks think? Max ========================================== MaxVL (maxvl@iname.com) LoreSharer of the line that Buffy did NOT say: "You're right Ted, genuine iron _does_ make all the difference..." - -------------------------------------------------------- Get free personalized email at http://www.lycosemail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 04:59:26 -0500 From: "kim simington" Subject: BUFFY: 3rd try of 2 parter thoughts Is anyone else having problems??? Hey all. 2 things: First: Anyone know when are they going to re run The Dark Age? It's the only one I haven't seen. If you know please tell me. Second: ? Since Buffy invited Angel into her home, can't he still come in?. I forget the episode, but it was after they fought (LTM?) and he asked if he could come in, Buffy said she thought once a vamp is invited in he can come in whenever. Angel said he could, he was just being polite. So if that's true what's to stop Angelus from coming in when Buffy's out slaying to kill or change Joyce? Great way to get to Buffy & it follows Angelus' MO. Plus good Story. That's all :) Kim Simington Keeper of Buffy's Ace Bandage kimrs@itech.net - - ------------------------------ End of buffy-digest V2 #61 ************************** To subscribe to buffy or buffy-digest, send the command subscribe buffy-digest or subscribe buffy to majordomo@xmission.com. You will need to go through a confirmation process, and the listowners have to manually approve your subscription request, so it may take some time. Back issues of this digest can be found at: ftp://ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/buffy/archive/ For help, contact Jill Kirby (jtkirby@mcs.com) or sah (romana@mindspring.com)