From: owner-buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com (buffy-digest) To: buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: buffy-digest V2 #142 Reply-To: buffy@xmission.com Sender: owner-buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk buffy-digest Friday, February 27 1998 Volume 02 : Number 142 In this issue: Re: BUFFY: Angel's soul Re: BUFFY: Passion's CC quotes BUFFY: End of Season Speculation (my view) Fwd: BUFFY: Is Kendra a slayer? Re: BUFFY: cibo matto Re: BUFFY: Passion Problem (PP) Re: BUFFY: Passion Points BUFFY: Jenny's chance for reviving... Re: BUFFY: Soundtrack Re: BUFFY: Passion Points BUFFY: Re: Jenny come back! BUFFY: Re: Jenny come back! Re: BUFFY: Re: Jenny come back! Re: BUFFY: Did any1 notice Re: BUFFY: Bringing Jenny back Re: BUFFY: Bringing Jenny back BUFFY: disk Re: BUFFY: Bringing Jenny back Re: BUFFY: Re: Hope for Angel Re: BUFFY: Passion Points BUFFY: Invisible Girl in Aus. & Angel/Angelus Speculation BUFFY: Episodes Remaining BUFFY: My idea on how to resolve the Angel/Ms Calender problem See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the buffy or buffy-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 00:14:37 -0500 From: gibb@monisys.ca Subject: Re: BUFFY: Angel's soul TheBigG379 wrote: > i feel the same way but i think buffy is going to move on and have Xander > become her new boyfriend and angel gets his soul back and she now is with > Xander and Angel cant live with that and tries to kill himself and buffy pix > Xander because he is human and she cant see angel because of what he has done. I would LOVE for that to happen!! > > > - - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 00:17:46 -0500 From: gibb@monisys.ca Subject: Re: BUFFY: Passion's CC quotes BloodSmple wrote: > In a message dated 98-02-26 07:52:20 EST, q7t4@unb.ca writes: > > I don't think that their comments were meant to mean anything at all. > I'm sure since in the script there was already a voice-over the director told > them to just babble about anything. So, Sarah and Alyson were probably just > talking gibberish trying to just make it look like casual conversation. After > all, there would be no point in writing any meaningful or witty dialogue that > we weren't meant to hear. > > -WOW...that's it! I never would have thought of that...but it makes perfect > sense!! - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:27:07 EST From: Raininfire Subject: BUFFY: End of Season Speculation (my view) In a message dated 2/26/98 3:56:24 AM, BLS7877@aol.com wrote: <> Hi. I think Joss has a thing for the classics (ie: Angel and Buffy [Romeo & Juliet], Some Assembly Required [Frankenstein]). With this said, I have an idea for the season ending based what BLS7877 said. Picture the Spike/Dru/Angel triangle taking on the Othello theme. This isn't exact but merely an adaptation. Spike, being jealous and suspicious of Angelus and Dru's lusty relationship, arranges Angelus' staking (fails) and then stakes Dru in a fit of rage. We all know the Spike of the past wouldn't harm Dru. (In "Lie To Me" he let people go to save Dru). However, in a plot to "slay two vamps with one stake", (LOL!) Buffy uses slayer psychology to convince Spike that Dru's been wearing the Scarlet Letter, making him angry enough to turn her to vamp dust. He's left vunerable and is slayed without putting up much of a fight. What do you all think? Raininfire@aol.com, GASPer, Keeper of Giles' Dictionary Member of Miss Calendar's Technopagans - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 00:29:12 EST From: Angel11261 Subject: Fwd: BUFFY: Is Kendra a slayer? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --part0_888557353_boundary Content-ID: <0_888557353@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII In a message dated 98-02-26 17:34:33 EST, gibb@monisys.ca writes: << Kendra was called ONLY when it was thought that buffy died. >> OK, this whole thing is pretty confusing. My opinion is that Kendra is definitely still a slayer. She was called forth when Buffy died right? Well if she isn't a slayer, why didn't she just lose her powers when Buffy came back to life? She obviously still possesed all of the powers of a slayer when Buffy was still alive. So why in the world would she just lose them now? Come on, people - Kendra is a slayer! Nicole (Angel11261) - --part0_888557353_boundary Content-ID: <0_888557353@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from relay14.mail.aol.com (relay14.mail.aol.com [172.31.109.14]) by air20.mail.aol.com (v39.9) with SMTP; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:34:33 1900 Received: from lists.xmission.com (lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7]) by relay14.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with SMTP id RAA18770; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:33:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.73 #4) id 0y8Bpu-000550-00; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:31:26 -0700 Received: from mail.monisys.ca [209.47.169.6] (root) by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) id 0y8Bpq-00054I-00; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:31:22 -0700 Received: from monisys.ca ([209.47.169.175]) by mail.monisys.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA26876; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:38:44 -0500 Message-ID: <34F5EDD3.E3C2B967@monisys.ca> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:33:55 -0500 From: gibb@monisys.ca Organization: . X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) To: Annie Weyand CC: Buffy List Subject: Re: BUFFY: Is Kendra a slayer? References: <34F5F566.C85E7FD8@rice.edu> Sender: owner-buffy@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: gibb@monisys.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Annie Weyand wrote: > Okay, guys, I'm still having a problem understanding why you don't > think Kendra is a slayer. Kendra was called ONLY when it was thought that buffy died. In Giles' book, the Codex, it was Buffy's destiny to be killed by the master. Giles told Angel that everything that was in this book always comes to pass and even though Buffy had defied prophecies before, the Codex was never wrong.. With this in mind....after Buffy was killed by the master, the next slayer was called....without anyone knowing that Buffy defied the prophecy of the Codex. Once it was determined that Buffy wasnt dead, Kendra was sent back to her watcher because she was no longer needed due to the fact that buffy was still alive... If Kendra was the slayer too, it would be kinda silly to have to hear "In every generation there is a slayer..ONE girl in all the world....." - - - --part0_888557353_boundary-- - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 22:55:02 -0700 (MST) From: apocrypha@asu.edu Subject: Re: BUFFY: cibo matto On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Neil Carnahan wrote: > i'm sure i didn't spell "ciabo matto" right, but does anyone know the name > of the song they played in "when she was bad"? the one during the dance > with xander. "Sugar Water" from their cd Super Relax Marc Mason - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 00:12:12 EST From: BPL39 Subject: Re: BUFFY: Passion Problem (PP) In a message dated 98-02-26 02:42:46 EST, you write: << Off the subject, but how many new episodes are left? Susan >> I've heard 4, but I believe with the way they keep re-running, we should only count three or less. Next week is new, followed by Ford's little show, then MAYBE a 2 hour season closer?? BL >> After Tuesday 3/3 (Killed By Death) there are 4 episodes that will be airing starting May 5th. Two regular eps and then the two part season finale. BPL39 - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 00:19:51 -0600 From: Mike Ingbritson Subject: Re: BUFFY: Passion Points At 3:04 AM -0500 2/26/98, LilyRei@aol.com wrote: >I think Xander is basically as selfish and self-serving as Cordelia but >without her honesty. He's been making little moves towards trying to improve >his character, but when push comes to shove he falls back on being petty and >mean-spirited. I think everyone's being too hard on Xander. None of the characters in the show were that shocked. Even Buffy said he was right. And many people on the list have been agreeing that the time has come to stake Angelus. So maybe it wasn't the most appropriate time, but that's just the way Xander is. And I liked his comment at the beginning about the visit from the pointy-tooth fairy. :-) Yes, Xander is selfish and impertinent; but he's also shown that he really cares about Buffy, Willow and the whole gang. That's my 2 cents. Peace, Mike It is my firm belief that it is a mistake to hold firm beliefs. -Principia Discordia mingbrit@rconnect.com http://homepage.rconnect.com/mingbrit - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 01:23:47 EST From: fun-ee@juno.com (fu nee) Subject: BUFFY: Jenny's chance for reviving... I haven't been following all the threads on Jenny dying. Frankly, I don't know how some of you can find all the time to. Don't you people have to work? Go to school? Do homework? Everytime an episode appears there are tons of Digests to go through and I try and pick out a few threads I like but I never have the luxury of reading all of them. Some of you must be financially independent millionaires, in which case, could you send me abotut $500,000? Just kidding! Ok, if you all remember, Passion, begins with the announcer saying that Angel has a plan to kill ALL of Buffy's friends and that this episode features the death of the FIRST. Now, this is something to think about. We can assume that in future episodes Angel will continue trying to do to Buffy what he did to Drusilla, driving her mad by killing all of Buffy's family and friends. Who might possibly die next? If we are to assume that they are actually going to continue killing off characters I would think there is a chance that Jenny might be brought back to life if the next victim is one of the major reoccuring characters on the series such as Cordelia, Willow, Xander, Buffy's mom, and Giles. If anyone of those major characters are killed they would have to be brought back to life because they are an integral necessary part of the show and this would be a chance for Jenny to be revived because -- for whatever reason or tv logic -- if they can bring back one character to life they can use the same device to revive the other. HOWEVER, there is one catch in this logic. If the actress who played Jenny Calendar died (read that as written out of the series) because of some contractual dispute, problems, or asked to leave the series, not even God could bring Jenny back to life only the pleas from the cast and promises of higher pay from the Producer might ressurect Jenny Calendar. That's my theory on Jenny dying and possibly coming back. funee _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 22:17:26 -0800 From: vxdarlaxv@juno.com (Darla Love) Subject: Re: BUFFY: Soundtrack Yes I read that it was coming out in the Spring but then on the List someone posted that the soundtrack still needed the permission of the bands to release the cd Darla Keeper of Darla's Lust for Angelus !~ Dawson's Creek Co-List Owner ~! !~ Join the DawsonsCreekMailingList ~! !~ www.coollist.com Listname: dawsonscreek ~! >Why can't Buffy have one now? I mean, the "Dawson's Creek" >soundtrack is coming out early June and "My So-Called Life" had a soundtrack >out within a few months of it coming on the air >A soundtrack is due out in Spring _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 01:45:29 EST From: LilyRei Subject: Re: BUFFY: Passion Points In a message dated 98-02-27 01:15:19 EST, mingbrit@rconnect.com writes: << Yes, Xander is selfish and impertinent; but he's also shown that he really cares about Buffy, Willow and the whole gang.> You are entitled to your opinion of course. And I can respect that. But taking Xander on a whole, and I've been watching since the beginning, I'm not real impressed with him or his behavior. He has always bugged me and it came to a head in "Passion." LilyRei Heart of the Slayer http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Set/1673/iondex.html - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 02:43:44 EST From: fun-ee@juno.com (fu nee) Subject: BUFFY: Re: Jenny come back! "Robin Carroll-Mann" convincingly scribed: >Why assume that Giles will have a new girlfriend? I don't think it's >likely anytime soon. Giles is grieving, all the more so because >Jenny died before they had a chance to properly reconcile. I think >it will be a long time before he is ready to open his heart to I have to agree with you. You're right. Giles is grieving and he did say at the gravesite that of all the people he had to bury as Watcher, he only love one. And that one, was Jenny. I'm wondering: are they just milking her death for all the tears they can draw out of us? OR, are they setting up for the happy return of Jenny, brought back from the dead? Because if what you say is true, Giles is going to be one unhappy puppy for a long time to come. For further conjecturing on the possible return of Jenny, see my post: Jenny's chance of reviving... funee _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 02:59:54 EST From: fun-ee@juno.com (fu nee) Subject: BUFFY: Re: Jenny come back! Lisa Rose wrote: >Didn't someone on this list say that Ty reported Robia to be >quite emotionally worked-up over her character dying off? Ok, I haven't been following every post for awhile and now you've REALLY got me hooked. Will the person that reported that Robia was emotional about her character dying please restate and hopefully elaborate in excruciatingly exact detail about this? PLEASE, I have to know. If Robia was worked up about her character being killed, then she obviously was fond of the character, must have regretted leaving the series and it makes the story of why her character died (possibly permanently being written out of the series) all the more poignant. I can't take it anymore...Why did Jenny have to die? Please, someone bring her back!!! [funee begins to sob uncontrollably] LISA: funee what's the matter with you? It's only a show for God's sake. funee: But...I loved Jenny. She was so beautiful and sweet. LISA: She was Giles girlfriend on the tv series. She played her part well and it was time for her to die. funee: NO! I won't accept it, Lisa. Jenny will be back. Just wait. Joss won't let us down. And when Jenny comes back there will be a party. Willow, Xander, Buffy, Cordy, and of course Giles will be there celebrating her return. Everyone will have fun and all will be smiling and laughing and there will be balloons, cake, and ice cream, and...and...you just wait and see. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 00:47:37 -0800 From: Lisa Rose Subject: Re: BUFFY: Re: Jenny come back! At 02:59 AM 2/27/98 EST, fu nee wrote: >If Robia was worked up about her character being killed, then she obviously >was fond of the character, must have regretted leaving the series and it >makes the story of why her character died (possibly permanently being >written out of the series) all the more poignant. I can't remember who paraphrased Ty (the writer), but my impression was that Robia didn't really want to leave the show. Hey, neither did Brian Thompson (Luke)! This show is too darn much fun I guess. >I can't take it anymore...Why did Jenny have to die? Please, someone >bring her back!!! Be careful what you wish for. Remember "The Monkey's Paw"? I always will. >[funee begins to sob uncontrollably] >LISA: funee what's the matter with you? It's only a show for God's sake. >funee: But...I loved Jenny. She was so beautiful and sweet. >LISA: She played her part well and it was time for her to die. That's not me speaking! That's your inner demon trying to disguise itself as me. I sobbed too. Such a waste. Such a senseless waste. Oh, Jenny, Jenny, you deserved so much better! Lisa - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:23:27 GMT From: flagg@wwa.com Subject: Re: BUFFY: Did any1 notice On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 22:16:15 EST, you wrote: >hey i am kinda confused?? what was the big deal about the disk? b/c it = was >obviously something big or else they wouldnt have shown it in slow = motion--and >also what are all these tags people have on their names stuff like = keeper of >buffys raincoat?? > The big deal about the disk is that it has a copy of the translation that Angel went to so much trouble to destroy. If Buffy or any of the others finds it, they can use it to restore Angel's soul. - --Flagg - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:26:04 GMT From: flagg@wwa.com Subject: Re: BUFFY: Bringing Jenny back On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:07:55 -0700, you wrote: >Bringing Jenny back would require a whole lot more than CPR. Her neck = was >broken, she died, she was not vamped. So far in the Buffyverse the only >ones that rise from the dead are vampires. ...and Mummies...and star football players.... any else I've missed? - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:27:22 -0500 (EST) From: tan3@cornell.edu Subject: Re: BUFFY: Bringing Jenny back Ok, time to jump on the bandwagon...well, more like hang off the bumber trying to hitch a ride but unable to fully get on. Enough with the analogies already. IM(oh so)HO, I don't think they could bring Jenny back to anyone's full satisfaction without being way too obvious about the plot warping. Anyone see the movie SoapDish? You know, where the writer (Whoopi Goldberg) has to write someone back into the show after he had his head cut off? Yes, she could be a re-amimated corpse (like Frankenstein), but she wouldn't be as pretty, and the brain has already been treated with formaldehyde anyway, so we all know what that means. She could be a mummie, except then she'd have to suck people dry to remain alive. She could become a living dead, but I don't think we want to see her wandering the halls of Sunnydale moaning, "Brains, Brains!" However, how about a ghost? She certainly has unfinished business... If she was haunting the hallways, Giles and the gang would certainly have a vested interest in helping her rest in peace, so they'd find the disk, and THEN they can decide whether or not to use it. Now, my sister (an avid fan) asked me a good question: why did the Romany tribe lose the information that allowed them to curse Angel in the first place? It's not like this was 200 years ago, and it's not like this was useless information. Why didn't they "curse" every vamp they could find, then spread the information as far and wide as possible to try to stop the entire vampiric curse? They should have had a vested interest in keeping the information, no? Now, the touchy question: will the gang be able to forgive Angel even if he does get his soul back? I believe that even if they forgive him, they will never be able to truly accept him as one if them again. Whether or not it's his fault is a totally different question, and I will not go there, but everytime they look at him, they will remember Jenny, the stalking, the feeding, and the pain and the grief that he caused them. Forgiveness is one thing, but forgetting and re-accepting is totally another. Cheers! Tracey tan3@cornell.edu Keeper of the Cluelessness of the Rest of the School - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:02:17 EST From: TrudiRose Subject: BUFFY: disk <> When Jenny figured out how to restore Angel's soul, she saved the info on a disk, and took the disk out of the computer. When Angel trashed her computer, the disk was still on her desk, so there was still hope that Giles or Willow might come upon it and see what was on it and restore Angel's soul. But then the disk fell into a crack between the desk and the wall, where no one will find it (at least, not very easily), so now that chance to restore Angel is gone (for the time being). Yet, the hope still exists that MAYBE someone will find it eventually. Hence the dramatic slow motion. <> It's just for fun - you can symbolically "claim" an object on the show. But you have to do it the right way, by emailing the person in charge of the Keeper list for that particular character and requesting to be the keeper of the particular object. If no one else claims it before you do, it's yours. To become a keeper, go to this web site: http://www.wco.com/~cybrpaws/keepindx.html Trudi Keeper of the necklace Spike gave to Dru on Valentine's Day Keeper of Dru's puppy Sunshine - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 07:16:02 -0800 From: Shari Subject: Re: BUFFY: Bringing Jenny back I'll admit I haven't read all the posts on this thread, but it's a fascinating subject. I've seen a lot of shows or movies/read a lot of books where a character was somehow brought back from the dead. Be they vampire, Highlander-style Immortal, reanimated in any fashion, the point is always that they are forever changed. Not just the obvious -- "Hey, he was dead, and now he's alive!" type of thing, either. Usually something else dies with the person that can't be retrieved. Sometimes it's referred to as the soul, but it's part of what makes that person who they were in life. Even if they look the same on the outside, the inner person is changed, and usually not for the better. In many of these fictional cases, they end up wishing they hadn't been brought back, and usually the person responsible for bringing them back wishes they hadn't. Okay, I can see a scenario for a grieving Giles doing some sort of magical incantation that will bring Jenny back, but as Lisa has pointed out, remember "The Monkey's Paw?" For any of you who don't recall that horrifying little story, you might want to look it up -- it should be available in any respectable horror anthology. Or, check out Stephen King's "Pet Sematary" (yes, that's the correct spelling of the title). The point is, the person who takes responsibility for bringing someone back usually then has responsibility for that person's actions. It's much the same as, say, Buffy not killing Angelus when she had the opportunity now makes her responsible for the things he's done since. Some may quibble on that point, but does that make Buffy sleep any easier? I dare say not. Therefore, the person who loved someone enough to want them back, often not only regrets that choice, but must then do something about it to return that person to that icky dead state of being. The point seems to be that Nature, God, the Universe, Whoever/Whatever is in charge, seems to want a balance back. Most people feel that a loved one who dies is lost most unfairly, and shouldn't have been taken from them. That's perfectly natural. Maybe there's a reason, though, that we don't see that requires that person be taken from us at that time. Maybe how we feel about it isn't as important as their purpose in some greater scheme of things. I've done a lot of writing on this subject, in many of the stories and novels I've written (or attempted to write but haven't finished yet) and it fascinates me. They don't have happy endings, folks. They're not supposed to. The purpose of this rambling discourse is to give people pause to think -- as much as you may have loved the character and or the actress, and will miss what she added to the show -- do you *really* want Jenny back? Especially if she's been dead for several days (as indicated by the scene of Buffy and Giles standing at her grave)? Even if she were somehow restored physically so she looked like she did before Angel broke her neck...to put it delicately, her mind may not be as well-balanced as it was. Not to mention that she might not continue to look so good... Remember how Buffy behaved in "When She Was Bad?" That was quite a traumatizing experience and she was only dead for maybe a couple of minutes at most. Since Jenny was feeling a lot of guilt and other disquieting emotions, she might be in for quite an unpleasant surprise were she revived in some way, having been dead a much longer time. Consider the consequences of the inevitable brain damage that would result in the brain being deprived of oxygen for several days. Now, if she were to come back as a ghost or some sort of spirit, that would be another thing entirely. That might be kind of cool, actually, especially if she's learned the error of her ways (as it appeared she had) and can somehow help Giles & Co. in their efforts to defeat the forces of darkness. Even real-life examples of people having near-death experiences (I've been there, folks, so it's not entirely speculation on my part), these are the kinds of things that change people and how they look at the world. Often it's for the better, and gives them an opportunity to make some changes in their life, but I've never heard of a case of a near-death experience where the person just went back to life as usual. Even cases of life-threatening illness are often enough to make a person think about their life and changes they might want to make. One last little comment, then I'll let y'all go. It's kinda off-topic as far as Buffy, but fits in with some of the themes of the show, especially about people messing with magic or other things when they don't really know enough about what they're doing to protect themselves. One time my brother, a neo-hippie sort, was enthusing about his experiences with altered states of being, and saying how great it is to just relax and open yourself up to "whatever's out there in the universe" and invite it to come into yourself. I pointed out the obvious, (to me, anyway) that he was therefore also opening himself up to whatever negative forces were out there, as well as the positive ones, and he looked shocked and a little scared. As well he should. As my beloved Xander might say, "Duh!" So, although I sympathize with all those who love Jenny and want her to come back, think again -- do you *really* want her back? There's always a cost to pay, and most people seem to find it too high a price. It's always good to think carefully about *all* the possible consequences of such important decisions, and then think again. Yes, I have to admit I'm relieved it wasn't Xander or Willow who was killed, and I'd probably be mumbling about how it isn't fair, and can't they bring him or her back, but in the long run...no. There are times when dead is better than not-quite life. All that said, if Xander ever became a vamp, I'd want Buffy (or someone else) to stake him, because the only possible consequences would be heartache, at the very least, to see a loved one forever changed in that way. If it were really easy to restore a Buffyverse vampire's soul, Angel wouldn't be the only one who had one. Even if the gang finds the disk and restores Angel's soul, do you think he's going to thank them for it? Ultimately, no. I don't think he'd want to live with the regrets he has now. How would any of you feel if somehow some demon took over your body, forcing you to just sit back and watch helplessly as the demon did all sorts of horrible things, and you had no control over it? (Jenny went through that, too, and it changed her, didn't it? It just added to the tragedy of her life, living a lie, betraying people she'd come to deeply care for.) Or, if your conscious being were "asleep" and unaware of your actions, and *then* the soul was restored, allowing you to remember all that "you" did? I dunno about the rest of you, but I don't think I'd want to live with that on my conscience. What would or could you do to possible make reparations for that? How could you ever absolve yourself of blame? "Gee, I'm sorry. I just wasn't myself that day." Yeah, that and "I was drunk/stoned, so I'm not responsible for what I did," that'll get you a *lot* of sympathy and forgiveness, right. Even if you forgive the person and condemn the actions they had no control over, you don't see the person in quite the same light anymore, do you? If that person is yourself, it's even harder to ignore, I would think. Sorry for the rant, but I guess I have issues on this subject. Shari rshari@earthlink.net - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:06:17 -0600 From: Mia_McDavid@em.fcnbd.com Subject: Re: BUFFY: Re: Hope for Angel Trudi was writing about whether Angel is responsible for the actions of Angelus. To me, a LOT depends on the degree to which Angel gave informed consent to being brought over. To me, Dru is clearly not responsible for her condition because Angel had completely destroyed her sanity before he brought her over, leaving her in no position to consent or withhold consent. Angel on the other hand . . . Darla changed him. Was he in love with Darla? Attracted? Did he want to live forever? At some level did he understand that she was evil but ignore that for the pleasure of being with her? If he knew that being brought over was going to make him evil, and gave consent, then he is totally responsible for everything his vampire has done. Mia Member WPWP Keeper of the Opening Wolf Howl I *LOVE* this show! - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:38:42 EST From: Smellcore Subject: Re: BUFFY: Passion Points In a message dated 2/27/98 6:15:27 AM, mingbrite@rconnect.com wrote: <> By that rationale, Angel should be forgiven if/when he gets his soul back. Before Surprise/Innocence he was right along side them, helping. This is what I don't get about all the Angel lynchers. He did all these horrible things when he became a vampire--you knew that! But now he is too evil to be born? Please. As for Xander, he bugs me. It's like Joss was going for a quirky but cool character but ended up with the most annoying person on the show. All you Xander lovers--don't jump all over me. Just my opinion. Kelly (smellcore@aol.com) "Every finger in the room is pointing at me. Wanna spit in their faces but then I get afraid of what that could bring." "Crucify" Tori Amos - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 02:51:25 +1100 From: Evan Harris Subject: BUFFY: Invisible Girl in Aus. & Angel/Angelus Speculation Knowing how stressed many of you on this list become over certain issues (which I refuse to mention again), I thought everyone could do with a good laugh. When Invisible Girl screened here (7.30p Friday, 27 Feb) the scene in which Marcie drops the bag over Miss Miller's head and she struggles for air was cut. It went straight from Miss Miller looking around for the source of the giggling to Cordelia opening the door and finding her slumped on the desk with the bag over her head. The edited portion was only about five seconds long but having seen tapes of the US version it was glaringly obvious that it had been cut. To top it off, the promo for Prophecy Girl which screened at the end of the episode was absolutely ludicrous. It gave the impression that the entire story of Prophecy Girl is going to be Buffy deciding whether she loves Xander or Angel. Any ratings Buffy gets in Australia is in spite of the best efforts of the network to the contrary. I also had an idea about extending the Angel / Angelus in a new and interesting way. Imagine what it would be if Angelus stayed around for a while yet but Angel's soul was brought back as a ghost. And you thought he and Buffy had it tough when he was a vampire, this way they wouldn't be able to touch at all. If it was said the only thing Angel could touch is Angelus then at some point (after a few episodes) Angel (the ghost) and Angelus (the demon) could *somehow* fight, with the prize being Buffy and possession of the body. Could anyone commenting on this suggestion please email me directly (as well as onlist if you want) as I have been storing the digests without reading them ever since the first spoiler after the screening of Passion. I've watched up to Innocence, read the transcript for Phases and seen a few scenes from both it and BBB, but I am avoiding Passion and Killed by Death spoilers completely. With luck I should be getting a tape with all four episodes within two weeks so I can then spend an afternoon reading all your comments on the episodes. - -- Evan Harris (Azure) azure99@ozemail.com.au - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 07:02:56 +1100 From: Evan Harris Subject: BUFFY: Episodes Remaining Mark Safransky wrote: > There are 22 episodes for the season according to WB. After next weeks episode > "Killed By Death", we will have seen 18 episodes. That means there will be four new > episodes left to air between now and the end of the season. There was a post by Joss a month or two ago on the Bronze in which he said that the final four episodes of second season would be screening in May. Unless there has been re-scheduling done since then (which is highly possible), it'll mean quite a few weeks of repeats or what will seem like a longer time of no Buffy. - -- Evan Harris (Azure) azure99@ozemail.com.au - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:34:39 -0800 From: "Sai Wong (Exchange)" Subject: BUFFY: My idea on how to resolve the Angel/Ms Calender problem > Hello, > > Here is my speculative idea on how to fix the problem with the death > of Ms Calender and > restoring Angel's soul. > > > Angel continues on his rampage killing Buffy's circle of friends. > Oz, Xander and Cordy are the first to go. > Buffy is starting to turn crazy (like Dru) > Whilst Willow is working late at school (as the temp computer teacher) > she finds > the disk. She discovers the disk and what Ms Calender was working on > and rushes > to find Buffy and Giles. Close to Gile's house Willow is intercepted > by Angel. > > Willow is no match for the evil Angel. However, her screams are heard > my Giles > and Amy (who were in the house). Amy manages to ward off Angel with a > spell > but Willow is dying. > > With her dying breath Willow explains to Giles what Ms Calender was > doing and > hands him the disk before she expires. > > Giles is grief stricken. All the slayettes have died and Buffy is > turning crazy. > Angel is winning. > Giles hates Angel and does not want to restore his soul. > Giles speaks out loud that he wished none of this had happened and > wish > he could turn back the clock. > > Amy says that she can. Amy can send Giles back in time. > > Giles (with the disk) is sent back in time. > > Giles tracks Ms Calender down as she is heading to the shop to buy the > Orb. > Giles knocks her unconsious in an alleyway and takes her to his house. > There Giles adds the 'Upstairs' letter addressed to his past self and > lays Ms Calender on > the bed. Giles puts the disk in her hands. > Giles also puts the 'No Vampire invite' spell on the house. > > From afar Giles sees his past self entering the house. > Giles goes back to his own time. > > History has now changed. > > When Jenny awakes , she and Giles read the contents of the > disk and purchased the Orb. Buffy and the Slayettes manage to capture > Angel and > cast the spell on him to restore his soul. > > Everyone lives happly ever after. > > What do you think ? > > > Sai Wong - - ------------------------------ End of buffy-digest V2 #142 *************************** To subscribe to buffy or buffy-digest, send the command subscribe buffy-digest or subscribe buffy to majordomo@xmission.com. You will need to go through a confirmation process, and the listowners have to manually approve your subscription request, so it may take some time. 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