From: owner-buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com (buffy-digest) To: buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: buffy-digest V2 #273 Reply-To: buffy@xmission.com Sender: owner-buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk buffy-digest Tuesday, May 12 1998 Volume 02 : Number 273 In this issue: BUFFY: Sarah's new haircut Re: BUFFY: Canadian Spoilers/Synopsis of Becomming [Long] Re: BUFFY: Sarah's new haircut Re: BUFFY: Intro episode BUFFY: spoiler about finale Re: BUFFY: Sarah's new haircut BUFFY: This is "Becoming" predictable Re: BUFFY: spoiler about finale BUFFY: Becoming, intro ep BUFFY: Disappointment much BUFFY: "Becoming.." BUFFY: Wow! Re: BUFFY: Disappointment much Re: BUFFY: This is "Becoming" predictable BUFFY: Paperweight BUFFY: Xander BUFFY: Re: This is "Becoming" Predictable BUFFY: Later... BUFFY: Questions about Becoming and next weeks preview BUFFY: Observation of next weeks preview BUFFY: EARLY EPISODE HELP Re: BUFFY: Paperweight BUFFY: Whistler Re: BUFFY: spoiler about finale Re: BUFFY: Good intro episode? Re: BUFFY: Questions about Becoming and next weeks preview Re: BUFFY: Whistler BUFFY: tape trade Re: BUFFY: Questions about Becoming and next weeks preview See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the buffy or buffy-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 17:33:44 -0700 From: twikos@webtv.net (Lupe Mejia) Subject: BUFFY: Sarah's new haircut hi, what did everybody think of Sarah's new haircut/color before the episode? i personally Loved it! i love the new haircut/color! if you haven't seen it, don't miss the begining of the show before the episode airs! could somebody vid cap this please. thanks! Lupe twikos@webtv.net if you are looking for Buffy The Vampire Slayer merchandise & you are in the Los Angeles area you can go to: Astounding 2319-A West Olive Avenue Burbank, CA 91506 phone #: 1-818-953-7234 or online at: http://www.buffystore.com to vote for your favorite episode of BTVS go to: http://www.bradfitz.com/votingbooth/cordidetail - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 20:34:16 -0400 (EDT) From: bandali@interlog.com Subject: Re: BUFFY: Canadian Spoilers/Synopsis of Becomming [Long] At 10:48 PM 5/11/98 -0400, you wrote: >Here's the review for the season finale Becomming, Part 1. > > > >S >P >O >I >L >E >R > > > >S >P >A >C >E > > >The first few scenes are a review of Surpise, Innocence, and Passion. It >focuses on Buffy and Angel in bed, Angel turning bad, the spell to restore >his soul, the death of Jenny, and the disk with the spell on it. > >[1973, (missed location), Angel: before vamping] > >Angel and another guy are thrown out of a bar, and they talk. the other >guy passes out in the street, Anyone else notice that this other guy is "xander" (is played by N.B) Symbolism, reincarnation etc., etc., ..... Sabrina bandali@interlog.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 20:37:57 EDT From: TS Bear Subject: Re: BUFFY: Sarah's new haircut I personally hate it! Yuck! Her hair looked good during the lunchroom scene when xander was renacting the earlier evenings events with fish sticks. The brown was ok, but the cut, blech. ~*Christine*~ - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 20:40:10 -0400 (EDT) From: bandali@interlog.com Subject: Re: BUFFY: Intro episode "The Pack" is definately the one to choose. Not only is it the mix of fun, gruesome, intelligent that is "Buffy" but it features Xander! >>Personally I think that the best "intro" episode is "The Pack". It's >>fun, exciting and you really don't need to know much about the show to >>view this episode. > >That worked for me. It was the first episode that I ever saw and I >couldn't wait to see another one. I think the first few shows that I >watched were all stand-alones and that's probably why I'm still partial to >them now. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:00:06 PDT From: "Itwasalatenite BShaw22" Subject: BUFFY: spoiler about finale S P O I L E R S P A C E Oh my God! They killed Kendra! ITWASALATENITE Honorary Member of The Fun Police Keeper of Buffy's dead gigapet - ------------------------------------------- "What are you doing?? Make me yak!!"--Cordy Check out the page: http://www.angelfire.com/ca/deucetre - --------------------------------------------- GO SONICS AND MY MAIN MAN FROM THE OAK, GP!! - --------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 20:11:02 -0500 From: NiK Subject: Re: BUFFY: Sarah's new haircut Um, one word: YUCK! I don't dig thee greasy hair look (which she seemed to be sporting before thee epp). I guess I shouldn't be talking, though cuz I probably put the most LA Looks hair gel in my hair on earth. I don't know, i guess I just like plain hair on girls a lot better. - -NiK panam@execpc.com > what did everybody think of Sarah's new haircut/color before the >episode? i personally Loved it! i love the new haircut/color! if you >haven't seen it, don't miss the begining of the show before the episode >airs! could somebody vid cap this please. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:06:04 -0400 From: Lawless Subject: BUFFY: This is "Becoming" predictable Yes! Finally Kendra is Dead! I was really dissapointed to find out that she;d be in the episode, only to have it completely turned around when she got her throat slashed. I can't decide what I really hated, the character, or Bianca Lawson trying to pull off that accent. Also, what's with this "armageddon" thing? Didn't we have an armageddon last month? It seems like every three or four episodes they pull out some new Hellspawn who's supposed to be the ultimate demon and Buffy's greatest challenge, only to have about 10% of the episode actually focused on it and it taken out in about 30 seconds at the end of the episode. I'm really getting bored with it and if they want me, as the viewer, to get interested in an episode and convey some emotion when I see the enemy, they're going to need to get out of this pattern. They've got the whole character development thing down, but unfortunately it's not purely a soap opera and the action seems to be re-hashed from previous episodes. I also agreed with Xander in the beginning of the ep. I think that Buffy is forgetting her responsibility and putting her feelings for Angel over innocent people's lives. She did that once and I'd guess he's killed probably 50 people since then, Jenny included. But who cares about the lives of 50 people when you have true love? Just stake him and be done with it. Even better, perform the curse to give him his soul back, then stake him. Wouldn't be as dangerous. I'm actually really surprised that Angel didn't commit suicide when he got his soul back originally. If he was as honorable as he was portrayed, he would have killed himself to avoid endangering any more lives. I'm probably looking at a lot of flame material here, so I'll take a break for now. Lawless - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:10:53 -0400 From: Doyle Tatum Subject: Re: BUFFY: spoiler about finale Itwasalatenite BShaw22 wrote: > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > > S > P > A > C > E > > Oh my God! They killed Kendra! When one slayer dies, another takes her place. Wonder who? - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:16:20 -0400 From: CharlieS@webtv.net (Charles Summers) Subject: BUFFY: Becoming, intro ep I always introduce people to Buffy via WSWB. It introduces all the characters and shows their passions and vulnerabilities. Plus it has the season 1 rehash in the beginning that saves a lot of explanations. SPOILERS FOR BECOMING I: 1. Ah, how great to have the master Joss back at the helm. Notice the difference much? 2. You go Xander! But, er, what about all the other people Angel has killed? Do we only feel bad about the ones we have met? 3. Cordy gets the killer line again re: Principal Snyder. 4. Loved SMG's old/new hair. Hope she is sporting it on Leno tomorrow. 5. The preview gave away too much of next week's ending. More later. Enjoy, everybody! - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:21:23 -0400 From: "Ryan Harrington" Subject: BUFFY: Disappointment much For all the lead up to tonites ep I was kinda disappointed. First of all we got like two seconds of Darla and that was all =(. Second Kendra hardly had a part before she bit the dust. And is it me or with the exception of the ending was this Surprise and innocence revisited? And I guess it clearly obvious that Dru is the gypsey girl. So Angel must have mad both Spike and Dru. Joss told a lie or he has a big ol' hole in his plot. I expect more out of next weeks. ~Ryan ryanh@preferred.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:20:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Monet Subject: BUFFY: "Becoming.." Okay, I think "blown away" is an understatement for this show! I usually don't write my take on it until maybe two or three hours later but the show just ended about two minutes ago. WOW! I'll admit, the beginning was a little on the slow side (I mean, the scenes that take place in the now--the flahbacks were a definite highlight!) We learned SO much in that hour: how Angel came to be, how the curse came to be, and SMG's take on how the movie came to be! And we see that she DID have a Watcher prior to Giles (like I thought so!) Granted, it's not Merrick (or it was, who knows). The last thirty minutes put me on the edge of my seat, literally! The only other episode that kept my heart racing was "Passion" and it didn't NEARLY do as good a job. Again, I'm not a crying type, but I almost did when Kendra ended up dead...her role was small, but her presence was definitely felt. Buffy running to get to the library was surprisingly powerful. Seeing Willow being crushed under the bookcase tore my heart, but I had a feeling something bad was gonna happen to her. The only person who got away was Cordy, and let's hope she made it somewhere safe. Xander's going to have one jeck of a pain on his forearm...OUCH! No doubt Giles was taken to remove the sword; I see no one worth enough than the Watcher of his stature! We definitely got to see a more aggressive side of Willow. Okay, it wasn't REALLY aggressive, but it is in Willow standards. Xander said what some of us, including me, wanted to hear: "Angel should be killed." The whole debate this list had for a time was shown right on the TV :) Even the whole "forgiveness" thing! I enjoyed seeing SMG's take on Buffy's life in LA. It was interesting to see just how much Buffy has changed since her days at Hemery. It was like a Cordelia clone, except blond. But SMG put more depth into the "dumb blond" Buffy than anyone could. Anyway, I'll stop rambling...it just HAD to be done. Next week's going to be another doozie! Can't wait, as usual. Man, shows like this will force us all to have MAJOR Buffy withdrawl during the next four months...:( But, hey, this show proves it's more than worth it :) G:) ================================================ Cameron:"Relax, I'm not going to hurt you." Buffy: "Oh, it's not me I'm worried about." (Buffy, the Vampire Slayer) ================================================ monet@arches.uga.edu - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:23:54 EDT From: JasPalo Subject: BUFFY: Wow! Everybody has been so busy rating past episodes, so let me just say that "Becoming" is excellent! Can't wait for part 2. Next week I won't even read this list so no one will ruin the suprise for me. Just a few things I wanted to mention to see what kind of reaction they get: 1. Xander wants to kill Angelus so bad, but does he realize that the restoration spell is called a curse for a reason. With his soul, Angel will suffer more pain from the memories of those he has slain (especially with Jenny's death on his head) than any wooden stake can cause him. Did you see the look in his eyes when the spell was first cast in 1898 or whenever? Besides, does the demon die when he is staked or does he just lose his human body? Angelus' demon could always return in someone else. Of course, Xander probably doesn't understand this, but it's just a thought... 2. Is it just me, or is this Whistler guy really Oz (or is Oz really the Whistler)? I missed the credits, so I didn't see who plays him, but the resemblance in voice and appearance is just freaky! 3. How about the moves Xander was using on those vamps in the library? Think he's been taking pointers from Buffy or what? Granted he's not the slayer, but he dished out some punishment before he was taken down. And Giles seemed more like the Ripper than the Watcher. Why didn't he grab the weapons he keeps in the library though? Everyone wanted to fight with their fists. The best way to beat a vamp is with a stake, not your bare hands. 4. Holy deja vu! Just like in "When She Was Bad", Buffy is lured away from the others so someone can be captured. Of course, this time she was leaving them with another Slayer, but the coincidence is eery. Hope it doesn't affect her ability to act in the future... Just a few random thoughts as I was watching... jason - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:30:50 -0400 From: "Ryan Harrington" Subject: Re: BUFFY: Disappointment much Oh yeah and even though I thought it kinda sucked could anyone send me the episode? My VCR kinda f.....screwed up. Note to self: Philps Magnavox bites. ~Ryan ryanh@preferred.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:32:14 EDT From: LilyRei Subject: Re: BUFFY: This is "Becoming" predictable In a message dated 5/12/98 6:10:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time, lawless@smgfan.com writes: > I'm actually > really surprised that Angel didn't commit suicide when he got his soul > back originally. If he was as honorable as he was portrayed, he would > have killed himself to avoid endangering any more lives. I'm probably > looking at a lot of flame material here, so I'll take a break for now. > Well, I'm not going to flame you, but I will say get real with the suicide thing. How many people (dead or not =) do you know who would willingly kill themselves regardless of what they've done? Not many, I'd include myself in that. I think it's more honorable to try and do something useful with your new-found consciousness, soul, or whatever. As for Xander. What can I say? He had some points. He's entitled to his feelings. I'm sure he was the mouthpiece for all you want Angel dead fans. But could he possibly express his opinions in a less rabid, antagonistic way? You win over a lot more people being rational than you do screaming and yelling and trying to punch out Giles. Not only that, whenever Xander opens his mouth on the subject of Angel, I tune him out anyway. Yes, Angel(us) has probably murdered 50 people and the BELOVED (by some, not me) Ms. Calendar, but this is not the basis for Xander's true hatred. If Xander is so hot to trot in his desire to destroy Angel, I invite him to pick up a stake and have at it. Stop bitching and moaning and pointing the finger and TAKE some ACTION. Why didn't the bookshelf fall on him instead of Willow? I need a MAJOR break from his mouth. I prefer to mourn somebody I was remotely interested in like Kendra--bad accent and all, I liked her. I want creepy Drusilla dusted in the very near future. If not next week, she'd better be the first casualty of next season's episodes because I do not like her at all. LilyRei Heart of the Slayer http://www.geocities.com/~lilyrei/ ***** "Vampires are the spawn of many bloodlines. Some are monstrous creatures forced to hide their faces from society. Others are beings of age-old grace walking freely through the world of mortals." Vampire Journals - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:37:23 EDT From: Smellcore Subject: BUFFY: Paperweight Joss is a mind reader or at least a secret listmember! I was talking to someone after Passion and we were laughing about how funny it woud be if someone ended up having an Orb of Thessulah as a paperweight. And it happened! Pandora (smellcore@aol.com) - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:40:36 -0400 From: CharlieS@webtv.net (Charles Summers) Subject: BUFFY: Xander I certainly hope all of you that thing Xander isn't being "polite" enough in his feelings about Angel never have a loved one taken from them before their time. We'll see how rational and quiet you are during these times. Some people repress, some yell, some get eerily quiet. These are all normal reactions. Get a clue and quit looking at the show through David-B-lust-soaked glasses. Xander is right. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:44:05 EDT From: LilyRei Subject: BUFFY: Re: This is "Becoming" Predictable P.S. I know Cordy is Miss Shallow and Pretty, but do you think she could have possibly done something to save her butt in that last fight? LOL LilyRei - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:52:05 -0700 From: Dayna Subject: BUFFY: Later... Well I'm dropping the list. Why you ask? Even though I adore the show and most of you are really great, I'm tired of coming home from work on Tues evening and having my Favorite Show ruined for me because of east coasters and Canadians that have already seen it. I try not to read anything now, but it's hard to miss "Kendra's dead!" in the first line. - -- Dayna DayDream Staffords ICQ #11512949 - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:48:57 EDT From: Skyler58 Subject: BUFFY: Questions about Becoming and next weeks preview Hi everybody. Tonight's episode was awesome but I have a question. If they are simply "replicating" the curse could Buffy and Angel ever be together again because won't he simply lose his soul again if they are? I also had questions about next week but just to be safe I will spoiler protect S P O I L E R S P A C E What do you all think will be the shocking ending to next weeks show? Obviously Buffy wont die. It seems as if Spike might save her when Angel has her down. I say this because we saw him come up behind Angel as if he was about to knock him down in the same scene as the sword fight (I think). They almost made it seem as if Angel or maybe Giles might be killed. I suggest the latter because of the reference by Nicholas in entertainment weekly about a month ago about "Tony's last show". I just assumed he meant for the season but certainly the loss of Giles would be shocking..and very upsetting! I would never expect it but you never know. I don't know. I just thought I'd throw out these ideas and see what you guys thought. Let me know-Katie By the way, I am somewhat new to the list ( although I have been watching Buffy since the beginning) and have pretty much just been lurking but I wanted to say hi and let you all know how much I enjoy reading your comments and ideas. Thanks. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:48:50 EDT From: Skyler58 Subject: BUFFY: Observation of next weeks preview I thought I saw something that would give insight into next week. I'm not sure about spoiler space so i will put some anyway S P O I L E R S P A C E So I went a little nutty with my slow motion and noticed in one of the little flash sequences of quick shots of scenes they showed an overview of the orb of Thessala with the candles, etc all ready to perform the ritual with someone waving around the smoke. I wondered if this was just a shot from tnights episode being reused so i checked it against tonight's show. Well, neither the ritual by the gypsies or willow was set up the same way as the one in the promo. Although this could be a glitch it could be a good sign that they will restore (or at least try to restore) Angel's soul. This would make me very happy as I am in favor of restoring it even though i know some of you are not. Anyway, thought I'd share my little observation. Katie - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:52:45 EDT From: Dalton5150 Subject: BUFFY: EARLY EPISODE HELP hello all, i'm new to the list as well as to buffy......i've been reading all the posts about starter episodes and how bad it would have been to have "go fish" as your first episode.......well, "iohefy" was my first ep and then "go fish" was my second....anyway, i was just wondering if any gracious soul out there had some of the early episodes on tape and would be willing to make me copies....it sounds like the older eps were so much better......i'd love to work something out to get the early eps.......i have all of the x-files episodes on tape, all five years but i don't know if anyone here would be interested in trading or not but i'd love to get my hands on some early buffy....well sorry for taking up your time..... anyone willing to help me out please email me personally.......Dalton5150@AOL.COM thanks in advance.. Dalton Dalton5150@aol.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 22:01:33 EDT From: JRoseHale Subject: Re: BUFFY: Paperweight In a message dated 98-05-12 21:41:45 EDT, Smellcore@aol.com writes: << I was talking to someone after Passion and we were laughing about how funny it woud be if someone ended up having an Orb of Thessulah as a paperweight. ... >> Yeah, it was funny, but in a mixed sort of way ... Didn't Angel, Drusilla, et. al., figure out what Jenny was up to b/c she bought an Orb from that shopkeeper? If she had only known that Rupert had one ... (Of course, then Joss would have found a different way to kill her!) Jennifer Hale jrosehale@aol.com WWW: members.aol.com/jrosehale - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 22:02:27 -0400 From: Ann M Subject: BUFFY: Whistler >>2. Is it just me, or is this Whistler guy really Oz (or is Oz really the Whistler)? I missed the credits, so I didn't see who plays him, but the resemblance in voice and appearance is just freaky!<< The Whistler guy , im not sure his name, used to be Brody on "Homicide: Life on the Street" He was the guy who took videos at the crime scene. He was really great on it. I recognized him right away. :) BTW , how sweet was it to see Angel watching Buffy in LA? Did anyone else laugh when the car pulled up with the painted windows? I know it was to protect against the sun but hah! For some reason it made me laugh. Anyone else think Spike will be the surprise person to restore Angel's soul? (I dont even know if hes getting it back, just speculation.) Still recovering from the intense hour, Ann :) - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 22:06:09 -0400 From: Doyle Tatum Subject: Re: BUFFY: spoiler about finale > > > > > > > S > > > P > > > O > > > I > > > L > > > E > > > R > > > > > > S > > > P > > > A > > > C > > > E > > > > > > Oh my God! They killed Kendra! > > > > When one slayer dies, another takes her place. Wonder who? > > > > - > In this case I think it cancels out. Buffy is the only Slayer. No way! That would not follow the way things have been going. I say there will be another! - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 19:07:56 PDT From: "Jana De Witt" Subject: Re: BUFFY: Good intro episode? - ----Original Message Follows---- - -ally - ------------------------------------------------ I think I lucked out because my first Buffy viewing was of WTTHM during summer re-runs. I was at a friends house who'd been watching since the beginning and could explain stuff to me, although since it was the premier there wasn't too much to explain. My other choice for a good first ep would be "The Witch" or "Teacher's Pet" (even The Pack) because they are good episodes that don't throw too much information at a first time watcher. Just my 2 cents. 47 minutes 'till Becoming on the West coast . . . - -Jana niftydoodles101@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 22:22:32 -0400 From: Mary Subject: Re: BUFFY: Questions about Becoming and next weeks preview >S >P >O >I >L >E >R > >S >P >A >C >E > >It seems as if Spike might save her when Angel has her down. I say this because we saw him come up behind Angel as if he was about to knock him down in the same scene as the sword fight (I think).< This is the same thing that I thought! And hope! The only thing is, after watching the last half of the show (since my mom missed that part), I noticed that the background isn't the same when Spike stands up as it is when Angelus has Buffy on the ground. However, Buffy will probably fight her way up (per usual!), and hopefully, Spike will still save Buffy in some way. Mary beans@csrlink.net *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# Well, you haven't killed anyone as far as we know And you seem very nice to your sister.... Well, your smile is as wide as Montana And your eyes as deep as the Caspian Sea Well, I guess these don't count as the things from inside But, these are the things that made me blind. --"Good Person Inside" -Jill Sobule - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 22:25:36 -0400 From: Mary Subject: Re: BUFFY: Whistler >Is it just me, or is this Whistler guy really Oz (or is Oz really the Whistler)?< Who's the Whistler guy? I don't remember him, which could be due to my incredibly bad memory! Mary beans@csrlink.net *#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*# Well, you haven't killed anyone as far as we know And you seem very nice to your sister.... Well, your smile is as wide as Montana And your eyes as deep as the Caspian Sea Well, I guess these don't count as the things from inside But, these are the things that made me blind. --"Good Person Inside" -Jill Sobule - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 22:23:45 -0400 From: "Ryan Harrington" Subject: BUFFY: tape trade Whats the url for the Buffy tape trade? Or would some be willing to let me send them cash for Becoming part one and prophecy girl?? ~ryanh ryanh@preferred.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 22:26:05 -0400 From: "Ryan Harrington" Subject: Re: BUFFY: Questions about Becoming and next weeks preview > >>S >>P >>O >>I >>L >>E >>R >> >>S >>P >>A >>C >>E >> > > Also does anyone wonder if Buffy's Mom will find out she's the Slayer? We saw he shocked face in the preview. - - ------------------------------ End of buffy-digest V2 #273 *************************** To subscribe to buffy or buffy-digest, send the command subscribe buffy-digest or subscribe buffy to majordomo@xmission.com. You will need to go through a confirmation process, and the listowners have to manually approve your subscription request, so it may take some time. Back issues of this digest can be found at: ftp://ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/buffy/archive/ For help, contact Jill Kirby (jtkirby@mcs.com) or sah (romana@mindspring.com)