From: owner-buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com (buffy-digest) To: buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: buffy-digest V2 #319 Reply-To: buffy@lists.xmission.com Sender: owner-buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk buffy-digest Tuesday, June 2 1998 Volume 02 : Number 319 In this issue: Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2 BUFFY: new spike site... Re: BUFFY: About "Buffy" Re: BUFFY: Amy Re: BUFFY: SMG on Rosie Re: BUFFY: Amy BUFFY: IKWYDLS Australian Release Re[2]: BUFFY: Amy BUFFY: Re: Xander's lie and stupidity in Buffy BUFFY: bad guys BUFFY: motive and Xander re: BUFFY: motive and Xander BUFFY: B Zone Updates Re: BUFFY: motive and Xander Re: BUFFY: motive and Xander BUFFY: Charisma Re: BUFFY: Re: Xander's lie and stupidity in Buffy Re: BUFFY: motive and Xander Re: BUFFY: motive and Xander Re: BUFFY: motive and Xander BUFFY: No Subject BUFFY: Xander BUFFY: SMG--a Spice Girl? Re: Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2 Re: Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2 Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2 Re: Re: Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2 Re: BUFFY: SMG--a Spice Girl? Re: Re: Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2 Re: Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2 Re: Re: Re: Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2 Re: Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2 Re: Re: Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2 Re: Re: Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2 See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the buffy or buffy-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 10:24:00 -0400 From: Mark Subject: Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2 Mark wrote: > 1. The lie > > He intended to tell Buffy right up until the last moment. Then he made > a very brave choice. He did what he truly thought in his heart was the > right thing for Buffy and the world, and didn't tell her. ... > 2. Betrayal of Willow by the lie > > Not much. More of a lesson for Willow. "Resolved face" may work OK > for covering something you're going to do. However, it's not a valid > answer when a fellow team member is trying to raise concerns about > what you want *them* to do. Because of the coincidence of names (the quoted opinion is that of another "Mark"), let me weigh in by disagreeing as emphatically as humanly possible. I think Xander's act was a betrayal so egregious and stupefying, so narcissistic, hubristic, odious and reft of moral integrity, I utterly *despised* Xander for doing it. I now have *zero* respect for the character. Xander *presumed* to take a decision out of the hands of his supposed friend, the slayer, by depriving her of vital information, when what was at "stake" was not only her own life and survival, but the fate of the world. This was NOT his decision to make. Further to compound matters, he violated the trust of his oldest friend, who was risking *her* life and tenuous health to try to restore Angel. Xander was playing God, plain and simple, and his behavior was unforgivable. With friends like Xander, who needs a demon, Acathla? Mark - -- markwithak@mindspring.com keeper of Willow's diffidence - ------------------------------------ "it could be me...it's not, though." - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 15:28:03 +0100 (BST) From: La Belle Dame Sans Merci Subject: BUFFY: new spike site... hey all im putting up a spike site and its nowhere near completion, but I thought you guys might be interested ./.. http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/8283/spike.html toni Toni Mandry enpfs@csv.warwick.ac.uk http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Set/1247 "Either this wallpaper goes, or I do." Oscar Wilde's last words - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:39:13 EDT From: Subject: Re: BUFFY: About "Buffy" Actually that's the production company and not Joss. Joss refused to do another movie because he was so dissapointed with what happen to the first. I think it's Sandollar that is doing the second movie and it won't be starring any of the cast from the show...I think. Don't expect it to be too great but then again, this production company takes responsibility for the humor and martial arts of the entire show. (Uh, what about Joss?) Oh well! - -Michelle The Buffy Cross & Stake http://members.aol.com/aglx/main.html - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:43:18 EDT From: Subject: Re: BUFFY: Amy In a message dated 98-06-02 10:00:40 EDT, csummers@utf01.utelfla.com writes: << Amy is a great character, but her powers present a problem for the show. Since her magic works on vamps, why wouldn't they be utilizing her to the fullest? >> I'll agree with you on this, her powers would present a problem for the show. She's to powerful as is, and could probably just cast a spell that turns human blood poisonous to vampires. However, I think they could tone down her powers a little and add her to the gang without to much of a problem. Say for example someone steals her spellbook. That would be a great episode where an out of control warlock/witch is running around turning schoolkids into rodents, and at the end the book is destroyed somehow. Voila...she loses most of her powers, so joins the gang and giles in particular to try to regain what she has lost. Just a thought. ;) - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:45:25 EDT From: Subject: Re: BUFFY: SMG on Rosie In a message dated 98-06-02 02:09:31 EDT, you write: << I see a pattern here. Jay (Leno), thumbs down. Rosie (O'Donell), thumbs down. Sinbad, thumbs wobbling in the middle. Its "that" generation from which the interviewer / show hang with. >> I think it's more of a "interviewer" concept. As far as I've seen, Sinbad was the only one who actually knew the day the show aired. (ahem, Letterman). When Sinbad interviewed Juliet Landau, I thought it was a great interview cause he basically knew what he was talking about (except the whole blonde guy line). I really think that these people should be recieving more research on their guests and not messing up the interviews cause they don't know what character these people play. We may actually get to hear important information on the characters, upcoming episodes, the stars upcoming plans and stuff like that if they knew what the heck they were doing, but unfortunately many people don't. Maybe we just need to have more Saturday Night Live and Mad TV spoofs cause those seem to be the best. (with the exception of everything else that's not related to the stars we are watching the show for). Okay, I've had my rambling. Now, i better go finish the episode pages before I get anymore threatening letters (you know who you are! -- j/k) - -Michelle http://members.aol.com/aglx/main.html - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 98 10:51:28 EDT From: (Charles Summers) Subject: Re: BUFFY: Amy True. And they could use her to help launch that Shannon Doherty witch show starting next year. I would also like to see them find a way for Oz to control his lycanthropy so he could be an asset to the gang. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 22:57:07 +0800 From: The Rowcrofts Subject: BUFFY: IKWYDLS Australian Release Dear All, Just want to say that I Know What You Did Last Summer is out today to rent, so go and get it people, sorry if this was already posted, i had something wrong with my mail server so i won't be picking my mail up till Wednesday afternoon, thanks - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:07:11 -0500 From: Mia_McDavid@em.fcnbd.com Subject: Re[2]: BUFFY: Amy We have been discussing Amy. Would her powers mess up the "balance of power" that gives drama to the show? I don't think so. The one time she casts a big spell, she messes up royally. I would think that would cause her to pull back *a lot*. She could still be a magickal reference for them, but magick in this show has never had a good outcome, unless strictly used in a healing/defensive capacity (saving Buffy in The Witch, undoing all the bad stuff in BBB, restoring Angel's soul). So, I think a chastened and wiser Amy would make an appropriate addition to the Gang, but of course we don't know what they'll actually do. Mia Member WPWP Keeper of the Opening Wolf Howl I *LOVE* this show! - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 98 10:57:28 -0500 From: "Kerstin hartzler" Subject: BUFFY: Re: Xander's lie and stupidity in Buffy Ok, I've been lurking here reading all of these posts and now you guys have made me get involved. Thanks a lot. Anyway, I have to say that I agree with Pandora. The decision to about whether or not to tell Buffy was not his to make. He had no right to keep that kind of information to himself. He knew that it was Buffy's dream to get Angel back, and if there was any chance of that happening, he should have supported her like a true friend (ex. Willow). On the other hand, I really can't say that there should be a "xanderbeating" or that he should be killed or anything like that. He was wrong, that doesn't make him evil. Everyone makes mistakes, and yes, he's nearing his limit lately, but he's sixteen. Being a teenager is really tough. (I am one thanks (17)) and living on the hellmouth just magnifies all of the problems. I think we have to give Xander a few more chances to grow up before we start putting him in the same category with the demons, ghoulies, and Snyder. Back to my lurkage, Kerstin - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 98 11:59:35 EDT From: (Charles Summers) Subject: BUFFY: bad guys Who were your favorite and least favorite bad guys this season? Mine: Favs: 1. Strong Spike and weak Dru: priceless 2. Angelus 3. Principal Snyder (does he qualify? I guess so) 4. The Gorches (bad ep, good villains) 5. Ted (John Ritter was great) Stinkers: 1. The Worm Man (maybe the lamest sci-fi villian ever--What could he do to you anyway? Ick you out to death?) 2. Machida (primarily just because the fishing wire suspension FX didn't really work) 3. Mama Bazor (Since when do underground demon thingies lay chicken eggs?) - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 12:04:54 EDT From: Subject: BUFFY: motive and Xander In a message dated 6/2/98 3:21:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, slayer@san- diego.crosswinds.net writes: << 1. The lie He intended to tell Buffy right up until the last moment. Then he made a very brave choice. He did what he truly thought in his heart was the right thing for Buffy and the world, and didn't tell her.>> Now, let me say first: I LOVE Xander. He is one of my favorite characters. But I really believe that his not telling Buffy was more for his own selfish reasons. Now, I don't condemn him for it because I thought what he did was very human. I think deep down his not telling was rooted in the fact that he just did not was Angel to get his soul restored(even if it could have been done safely). As someone already said, had Buffy known she would have fought harder to keep Angel from cutting himself and keeping him from withdrawing the sword. The only reason Buffy did not resist letting Angel open the vortex was because she knew that that was one of the best ways to defeat Angelus. Again, I'm not condemning Xander for what he did. I do think it was stupid and selfish(but he is still only 16 and I don't think he has reached the stage of maturity yet where he would be able to grasp that: If-I-really-loved-her-I'd- let-her-be-with-the-man-she-wants-to-be-with mentality)...BUT, from the look on his face in the last scene of the episode I can tell he sees that now too. ~erin~ - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 98 12:18:07 EDT From: (Charles Summers) Subject: re: BUFFY: motive and Xander A factual point: I do not want to reheat the Xander thing again. Angel had already cut himself and said the words to the ritual before Buffy showed up. Plus, she had just staked the vamp she was fighting when Angel pulled the sword out so there was no way she could have stopped any of it if she had known any different. She wasn't there for part of it, and she was busy the rest of the time. Hence my contention that his lie ended up making no real difference. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 09:20:19 PDT From: "Mz. Gwyn" Subject: BUFFY: B Zone Updates Hey People, Just wanted to let you know that the B Zone has been updated in the past couple of weeks, just for you buffy fans, I've got a lot more picture galleries up-n-running (8 total, w/ lots more to come). I've also started my awards and banner programs so stop by, sign my guestbook and take a look around the B Zone. Ciao Bellas, Ms. Gwyn The B Zone http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Studio/8961 "Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever, but get over it." Cordy (WSWB)(Official Keeper) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 12:48:59 EDT From: Subject: Re: BUFFY: motive and Xander In a message dated 98-06-02 12:23:42 EDT, csummers@utf01.utelfla.com writes: > Angel had already cut himself and said the words to the ritual before Buffy > showed up. Plus, she had just staked the vamp she was fighting when Angel > pulled the sword out so there was no way she could have stopped any of it > if she had known any different. I disagree. She could have done a million things differently. She could have *not* announced her arrival by beheading the one vamp, and that would have given her the element of surprise. She could have hurt Angel badly enough that he couldn't make it to Acathla to pull out the sword. Any single event could have changed the outcome. The events happened the way they did because she did not have all the information. She had no reason to stop Angel from removing the sword because she knew she would have to destroy him - before or after he pulled the sword didn't matter. And it would be easier to destroy him if the fate of the world was counting on her to do it. Bottom line: Xander should have told her. It was very selfish of him not to. No, I don't think he's evil and I don't hate him for not telling her. But I'm very disappointed in him. - -Rayne Keeper of Spike's trench coat Keeper of Willow's animal slippers Keeper of Buffy's stuffed pig, Mr. Gordo (I hope she took him with her!) - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 98 13:06:58 EDT From: (Charles Summers) Subject: Re: BUFFY: motive and Xander Yeah, but she didn't have that many options. The vamp she beheaded was between her and Angelus and had to be dealt with. And the other vamp jumped her, which she also had to take care of, so her options were fairly limited. That having been said, I agree Xander should have told her. But I still don't think it could have changed anything. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:33:19 -0700 From: giles1girl@webtv.net (Marie Smith) Subject: BUFFY: Charisma hi, i left my radio on this morning & i heard mentioned on the Kevin & Bean show (106.7 f.m. Los Angeles) one of them mentioned Charisma Carpenter, now since i was sleeping & only heard the mention of Charisma's name I don't know why she was mentioned, was she there? or did they just mentioned her? if you have a copy of this if she was there please let me know, i didn't know she was going to be there if she was. the h*lp is really apreciate it! thanks! giles1girl@webtv.net - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 13:33:00 EDT From: Subject: Re: BUFFY: Re: Xander's lie and stupidity in Buffy In a message dated 98-06-02 12:03:15 EDT, Kerstin.E.Hartzler-1@tc.umn.edu writes: > Everyone makes mistakes, and yes, he's nearing his limit lately, but he's sixteen. Being a teenager is really tough. I think we have to give Xander a few more chances to grow up before we start putting him in the same category with the demons, ghoulies, and Snyder.< How many chances does he need? This is a tired and worn out excuse. He is not going to be 16 (BTW, he's 17) forever. He and the rest of his gang have had to grow up a little faster considering where they live, what they've seen, and who their best friend is. Everyone is making this transition. Everyone except Xander. He cannot make other people's decisions for them, withhold information when it suits him, and save everyone from themselves because he knows better. I can't tell you how that ticks me off. If someone did that to me, I'd hand him his head on a platter. And there'd be no forgiving of the incident ever. Don't make my decisions for me and don't ever presume you know what's best for me better than I do. Sorry for the rant, but this why the whole "lie" bugged me so much. LilyRei - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 13:39:07 EDT From: Subject: Re: BUFFY: motive and Xander In a message dated 98-06-02 13:15:57 EDT, csummers@utf01.utelfla.com writes: > That having been said, I agree Xander should have told her. But I still > don't think it could have changed anything. > But that is not the point. The point is he not only did not give the message, he lied. LIED, LIED, LIED! God, I hate liaers. LilyRei - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 98 13:51:30 EDT From: (Charles Summers) Subject: Re: BUFFY: motive and Xander The point is if his lie could have made a difference he would deserve to suffer for it more than if it made no difference. When you supplant your judgment over someone else's the results become your responsibility--and though he deserves some kind of punishment for lying, I don't think it should be as severe since it really made no difference in the end to the situation. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 14:00:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Robin Carroll Subject: Re: BUFFY: motive and Xander > The events happened the way they did because she did not have all the > information. She had no reason to stop Angel from removing the sword because > she knew she would have to destroy him - before or after he pulled the sword > didn't matter. And it would be easier to destroy him if the fate of the world I don't think that Buffy went in with the plan to twiddle her thumbs until after Angelous pulled out the sword. The Whistler told her to try to _prevent_ the removal which is what she was trying to do. Knowing that Angel might be restored at any time wouldn't have helped her stop Angelous since that was what she was trying to do in the first place. I think that knowledge would only have served to distract her, and in the ultimate showdown, after Angelous removed the sword, could have killed her. > Bottom line: Xander should have told her. I agree with you on that point. I was a little miffed about his lie, I think he should feel majorly guilty about it, but I think it ended up being the right thing for the wrong reason. I have a question that hasn't come up... Why aren't we harping on Willow. It has been said that Xander should have delivered her message, but should Willow have even attempted the spell? At the hospital, Buffy said something to the effect that she shouldn't have let Willow try the spell. Maybe Willow was motivated by more than just trying to help Angel, like trying to prove to herself that she could do it. She also played a part in sending Angel's soul to Hell, and her decision (resolve face or not) could have gotten Buffy killed. *please don't hurt me I really am a Willow fan (and Xander, and everybody else except, maybe, Snyder)* :) Robin rncl@uhura.cc.rochester.edu - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 15:15:25 EDT From: Subject: BUFFY: No Subject In a message dated 6/2/98 5:16:23 AM, you wrote: << A good point was brought up that Xander never had any clue that Buffy was enlisting Spike's help to go after Angel and yes, Xander _did_ betray Willow's trust by not telling Buffy but he also used what he believed to be his best judgement. >> But you are just speculating about his motives. Just as others who believe that he was motivated out of spite and jealousy are just speculating. You don't know and we don't know. I am merely arguing that the decision was not his to make. And I reiterate that Buffy proved rather definatively in this episode that she can get the job done when it's all on the line, whatever personal cost to herself it might mean. It was a bad move. One that will undoubtedly be dealt with next season. Joss likes to change a static character (one who does not change) into more dynamic (one that does change). Xander needs to grow up. The others have had to do so rather quickly this season but Xander and Cordelia were spared this torment, mostly. Yes they were affected but nothing really happened to them directly. This season we saw Willow lose some of her shyness. She bagan teaching, she took a more active role in the Slayerettes and found she could hold her own a lot better than she thought. Angel lost his soul. He hasn't had the chance to deal with it yet but by briunging Angelus back, Joss showed us how very different the two really were. Buffy lost everything but found she could depend on herself. Giles lost his girlfriend and found he would have to place his trust in Buffy. That as they (Xander, Willow, Buffy, Cordelia, etc. . .) depended on him, he must also learn to depend on them. What am I getting at? Joss loves to put good people in bad situations. The more painful the better, to see how they react and how they grow. People only change under these kinds of circumstances. If the flicker of guilt we see cross Xander's face at the end of Becoming is any indication, we will surely see him tortured by it next season. And he does deserve the guilt. He nneds to be dealt with and it will probably be harsh. But remember it is done with the purpose of forcing him to grow up. <> Happy to oblige. You make some good points but as I said mere speculation is not enough to sway my opinion. Whatever those motivations were, it was not the right thing to do. Pandora, BXTHCLBC - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 15:32:42 -0400 From: "Ryan Harrington" Subject: BUFFY: Xander Personally I think Xander is right. I couldnt believe that any of them would want to curse him again after what happened before. And to risk having Angelus back again. I mean thats just plain stupid. I'm sorry but Buffy should get over him I mean it *is* just a boyfriend. Lotsa people lose loved ones but that doesn't give them the right to fool around with curses and black magic just to bring back an already tortured soul that just shouldve been staked and released to begin with so he could have some peace. ~Ryan - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 98 15:27:52 EDT From: (Charles Summers) Subject: BUFFY: SMG--a Spice Girl? I happened to flip by CBS this Morning when they were running some dopey light-hearted piece about who could replace Ginger Spice. One of the "candidates" was a dark-haired SMG! The host guy told the correspondent presenting the list that she was probably too busy staking vamps or something. And no, I didn't get it on tape. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 15:46:20 EDT From: Subject: Re: Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2 In a message dated 6/2/98 1:19:11 PM, you wrote: <> Just because *we* didn't see a lot of Oz doesn't mean that the characters, didn't either. Willow and Oz have obviously grown close and Xander doesn't think to notify him that she was seriously injured? I just think that Xander rarely stops to think about things not directly in relation to himself. As I have stated *numerous* times. I do not hate Xander. Not all of the time anyway. I just think he needs to grow up. And I didn't say "you stink", where that little quote came from I have no idea. . .BUt I don't like to be misquoted. I believe I said "That's what you get. Nothing." He dumps all this on her--while she's unconcious no less-- and expects her to be what? Thankful? No she needed care and love. Things she has always wanted from Xander but never recieved. She gets that from Oz. I think he expected her to be the same as always, desiring his attention. That makes him feel good about himself. But she wanted Oz and I think that hurt Xander more than he'd care to admit. Does that make sense? Pandora - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 98 15:48:20 EDT From: (Charles Summers) Subject: Re: Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2 How could he expect her to be anything? She was unconscious. And she did get love from Xander--he just wasn't "in love" with her. Isn't really caring about your best friend a good thing? Remember "If they hurt Willow I'll kill you"? I think anyone who saw that scene, as touching as it was, and who's main reaction was "tough luck buddy, you missed out" must really hate Xander. I have discussed that scene with many Buffy fans and almost all were touched on some level--anyone who felt anger at it must have some real issues with this character. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 16:06:58 EDT From: Subject: Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2 I honestly don't see what was soo wrong about xanders lie about them trying the curse....I mean i think that Xander made the right choice because lets look at this...OK first of all with Buffy not knowing that angelus might become angel she could fight better..i mean if she was just trying to stall she probably would have gotten killed because she barely beat him when she was trying her best to kill him!! And I dont see any good that it would to for buffy to know because buffy would still have to stab angel to close the vortex....and she did know it was angel with a soul after he got it.......So I really think that Xander made the right choice..... - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 16:14:48 EDT From: Subject: Re: Re: Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2 In a message dated 6/2/98 7:58:59 PM, you wrote: <> Again, I reiterate, I DO NOT HATE XANDER. I have issues with him yes. Mostly caused by the fact that he has some growing up to do. But I do not hate him. In fact I used to really like him especially in the first season. Latley, I want to go at him with a baseball bat but that's just me. He's not unredeemable in my eyes but he does have a long way to go. . . Pandora feeling like a broken record. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 16:18:44 -0400 From: "Ryan Harrington" Subject: Re: BUFFY: SMG--a Spice Girl? >light-hearted piece about who could replace Ginger Spice. One of the "candidates" was a dark-haired SMG! The host guy told the correspondent presenting the list that she was probably too busy staking >vamps or something. Remember she did do the Spice girls thing on SNL and I'll admit she really did look and sound like a spice girl. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 98 16:18:04 EDT From: (Charles Summers) Subject: Re: Re: Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2 Hmm. You must have a pretty low tolerance for taking a bat to someone if you don't hate him. I would hate to cross you... - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 16:20:48 EDT From: Subject: Re: Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2 In a message dated 6/2/98 8:10:23 PM, you wrote: <<..OK first of all with Buffy not knowing that angelus might become angel she could fight better..i mean if she was just trying to stall she probably would have gotten killed because she barely beat him when she was trying her best to kill him!! >> Again, I reiterate, Buffy learned (as Whistler knew) that the only thing she could count on was herself. It was, essentially, the whole point of Becoming. That when everything else is gone "No friends, no weapons, no hop" she had one more thing--herself. She knew the world depended on her and in order to get the job done she had to put her personal feelings aside and do it. In the past she has been uncomfortable with this responsibility but I think now she has accepted that it is hers and hers alone until she dies. Xander either had little faith in her or acted out of spite and jealousy. Either way you look at it his actions were a direct betrayl of everything his friendships are founded upon. Give Buffy some credit. Pandora - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 16:22:26 EDT From: Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2 In a message dated 6/2/98 8:19:40 PM, you wrote: <> It's not pretty. Irish temper. It's a very short fuse. . . Pandora - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 98 16:30:40 EDT From: (Charles Summers) Subject: Re: Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2 And would it have made it easier or harder to set those feelings aside if she knew Angel was returning? I think harder, which means fighting halfheartedly, which maybe means not surviving. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 16:44:26 EDT From: Subject: Re: Re: Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2 In a message dated 6/2/98 8:33:39 PM, you wrote: <> But if you see her that way, unable to put her feelings aside when the world is in danger, then you missed the point of Becoming 2 and the point of my post. Buffy had to learn sometime that no matter what she is responsible--NO MATTER WHAT. She knew that to let Angel kill her was to let him destroy the world and she wasn't to let that happen. Even if it meant losing her Angel. But this pointless anyway because it still wasn't Xander's decision to make, as I and others have stated time and time again.HE chose to take Willow's message to Buffy--he could have refused despite the resolve face--and he chose to lie. Thus he betrayed his oldest friend and a woman he is supposed to love all in one line. And he used Willow's name to deliver his message! I'm sorry but leading the kind of lives that these people do there is no room for second guessing one another and double crossing. Which is what Xander did. Pandora, still saying the same things over and over. Does anyone even read my posts before they respond with the exact same position? (no flame intended but I do feel like a broken record) - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 98 16:52:44 EDT From: (Charles Summers) Subject: Re: Re: Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2 Yes, but her big moment came halfway through the fight when she almost got run through. That's when her resolve got steeled and she "became." What if up to that point she was stall-fighting and didn't survive to have the big moment you refer to? You can characterize Xander's lie anyway you choose to see it. I see it as bad, but not on the level of a doublecross and I don't think we will ever agree on that so there is no point in discussing it any further, really. - - ------------------------------ End of buffy-digest V2 #319 *************************** To subscribe to buffy or buffy-digest, send the command subscribe buffy-digest or subscribe buffy to majordomo@xmission.com. You will need to go through a confirmation process, and the listowners have to manually approve your subscription request, so it may take some time. Back issues of this digest can be found at: ftp://ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/buffy/archive/ For help, contact Jill Kirby (jtkirby@mcs.com) or sah (romana@mindspring.com)