From: owner-buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com (buffy-digest) To: buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: buffy-digest V2 #322 Reply-To: buffy@lists.xmission.com Sender: owner-buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk buffy-digest Wednesday, June 3 1998 Volume 02 : Number 322 In this issue: BUFFY: Re: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2 Re: BUFFY: Sarah Mc song Re: BUFFY: My assessment of Xander's Lie to Buffy. . . BUFFY: Books BUFFY: Sarah's Pic on Main Page Re: BUFFY: SMG on Rosie Re: BUFFY: Beverly Hills Family Robinson BUFFY: Robia LaMorte Picture. Re: BUFFY: Re: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2 Re: BUFFY: Books Re: BUFFY: xander BUFFY: The lie that won't die... BUFFY: I've been wondering this for a while now... Re: BUFFY: I've been wondering this for a while now... Re: BUFFY: Sarah Mc song BUFFY: Xander lie to buffy Re: BUFFY: Amy Re: BUFFY: Amy Re: Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2 Re: BUFFY: Amy Re: BUFFY: Amy Re: BUFFY: Amy Re: BUFFY: Amy Re: BUFFY: Amy Re: BUFFY: Amy Re: BUFFY: Amy BUFFY: Re: Giles/Anthony Head In-Joke? Re: BUFFY: Giles Re: BUFFY: SMG on Rosie Re: BUFFY: Giles BUFFY: Re:Oz BUFFY: Re:Oz BUFFY: Xander...again BUFFY: Re: Oz Re: BUFFY: Xander...again See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the buffy or buffy-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 23:45:21 EDT From: fun-ee@juno.com (fu nee) Subject: BUFFY: Re: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2 On Tue, 2 Jun 1998 23:22:01 EDT LilyRei@aol.com writes: >Some of you guys just can't seem to understand that some of us take things seriously; things >like respecting other people's wishes, keeping your word once given, faith in your friends and >their abilities, and honesty. Violate just one and you're on my sh**t list. Keep it up and I'll be in >line for Pandora's bat. Life is not a dress rehearsal. Xander is allowed to Whoa, Lily! What passion! I could see the fire in your eyes, the nostrils flaring, the veins bulging. If I was your boyfriend and even looked at another girl I wonder if I would be alive. Guys make mistakes, so do girls. I think Xander lied and he was a jerk for doing what he did but I can understand that his motive was his love for Buffy. So, if you and Pandora want to use him for batting practice, I suppose you'd have a right to, but I feel sorry for him. Every guy that's ever been in love probably feels sorry for Xander and understands. In fact, I think that anyone -- male or female -- that's been so in love that they'd lie for that love, understands. Sympathetically, funee _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 23:58:02 EDT From: Subject: Re: BUFFY: Sarah Mc song In a message dated 98-06-02 17:23:00 EDT, you write: << What was the name of the Sarah Mc song at the end of Becoming 2? >> The name of the song is "Full of Grace" on Sarah McLachlan's cd "Surfacing." By the way, I strongly suggest buying the cd. Every song on there could have easily have been in an episode of BtVS. There is a song called "Angel" and a song called "Innocence " (or "Innocent" I can't remember which). - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 00:11:48 EDT From: Subject: Re: BUFFY: My assessment of Xander's Lie to Buffy. . . In a message dated 98-06-02 20:48:07 EDT, PandyGrrl@aol.com writes: > A Democratic/ Liberal person would probably be more on the side of "Xander > did what he thought was best and omited information that he felt would hinder Buffy's performance." >> > Another stereotype shattered. I used to be a Democrat, now I'm an Independent, and I firmly come down on the side of Xander should NOT have lied. LilyRei - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 20:43:53 -0700 From: lilyp215@juno.com (Lynda T Phan) Subject: BUFFY: Books Does anyone know when "The Angel Chronicles" is coming out or if it has already? _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 03:13:12 -0400 From: "Charles Molnar" Subject: BUFFY: Sarah's Pic on Main Page If you go to: http://www.tvgen.com/ which is TV Guides network Buffy's picture is there. Charlie - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 01:14:53 -0400 From: Lawless Subject: Re: BUFFY: SMG on Rosie While I do watch Leno, I prefer Letterman. Jay just seems to have better guests on. But Jay's been known for a long time as being a horrible interviewer, which is one of the reasons he almost didn't get the job a few years ago. Letterman's a better interviewer, but takes everything as a joke, which can work out fine if the guest knows how to turn it back around. Sarah hasen't done a whole lot of interviews, so she can still use some work in that area about how to approach it. The lesser known hosts have more riding on the interviews and I think that they focus more on them. Especially since most of their guests are lesser known than the big names, and the interview questions have to "introduce" the guests to a lot of people. That's why you'd see a better interview of someone like Boreanaz or Charisma on Vibe (I'm not sure about now with Sinbad hosting) than on someone like Leno. Leno and Letterman have a lot of range because of their success, and are basically given cards with a few topics on them to discuss with their guests. Rosie's a big name herself, but she tends to ask questions to her guests about things she's interested in and wants to know, as opposed to just chatting with them, and her questions usually are more in line with things the audience wants to know. As for the research thing, that's the most important factor , IMO. I've seen Jay at rehearsal a few hours before the show and watched his "research process." It's basically along the lines of: Jay: Who's this person? Coordinator: She's so and so, she was on "" and now she's doing this... Jay: What's she plugging? Coordinator: She's got a TV movie coming up this week on ABC. Jay: Okay, now let's go over the "Beyondo" skit again. He's given a 1 or 2 page bio sheet during rehearsal and spends a couple of times looking over it. I'm not sure what things are like with Letterman, but the only time Leno puts some real research into a guest is when he has someone on like Hugh Grant after the scandal or Seinfeld after the final episode, because those are bigger ratings pushers. I've seen 10 minute interviews with Sarah done by local tv news reporters that were more interesting and "eductaional" than with all the big-name talk shows she's done combined. By the way, Sarah will be on Access Hollywood today (comes on in about twenty minutes in the East). Lawless - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 01:24:22 -0400 From: Lawless Subject: Re: BUFFY: Beverly Hills Family Robinson It was filmed from September-November in 1996. Lawless fu nee wrote: > Whoa! You're kidding? You mean Sarah was in her 20's when she was in > that Disney Movie...like last year? She looks alot younger! I suspect > that movie summary is in error. Looked to me like it was at least 3-6 > years ago. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 02:12:53 EDT From: Subject: BUFFY: Robia LaMorte Picture. For those of you that were less fortunate than I, I have scanned my autographed picture of Robia LaMorte aka, Ms. Calendar. Any of you that would like to see it please e-mail me OFFLIST. The list mommies hate recieving my personal mail! :) So please please please do make sure when you are replyin that you are replying to TknoPagan@aol.com Okay buh bye... Jason TknoPagan@aol.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 02:30:02 EDT From: Subject: Re: BUFFY: Re: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2 In a message dated 98-06-02 23:48:45 EDT, you write: > Every guy that's ever been in love > probably feels sorry for Xander and understands. In fact, I think that > anyone -- male or female -- that's been so in love that they'd lie for > that love, understands. Do you really think that you're going to endear yourself to the person you love when they find out that you're a liar and that you're not above manipulating things to get your way? Love is based on a lot of things, but trust is a biggie. When you destroy trust what's the point? Sorry, but just because Xander loves it doesn't give him carte blanche to do whatever he wants in the name of love. LilyRei - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 00:42:06 -0700 From: preta@earthlink.net Subject: Re: BUFFY: Books > Does anyone know when "The Angel Chronicles" is coming out or if >it has already? There is a reading and signing by the author, Nancy Holder, June 19 here in L.A. so they will be available then if not before. Preta preta@earthlink.net ******** Abyssus abyssum invocat. Facilis descensus Averno. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 23:24:59 -0500 From: Douglas Carey Subject: Re: BUFFY: xander > ahem, this female fan of the show spends most of her time drooling for nick brendon. jewels Totally agree with ya, Jewels!! *s* I don't know why most you guys go googoo over David. *covers her head from attacks* Jennifer Carey data@gte.net http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/6187/Lovers.html "Can I have you?"-Xander to Buffy ((See my page. :))) - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 01:59:27 -0700 From: Mark Subject: BUFFY: The lie that won't die... Some summarization, some new points... Motivation: There is no solid evidence on this one, so everyone just has to go with their feelings. It think Xander lied *only* because deep in his heart he thought it was the right thing to do for Buffy, and the world. That's why I think it was the right thing for him to do. If my read is wrong, and any significant amout of the lie came from a desire to "eliminate Angel from Buffy's dating pool", then it was a betrayal I can't defend. Perspective: The above "rightness" is from Xander's perspective (again assuming a "pure" motive). That's not to say he won't feel guilt or regret over doing it. From Buffy's perspective, it will most likely seem like Xander did the wrong thing. Of course he should have told her, he had *no* right not to. So, now we have it seeming to be both right and wrong, and it is, depending on who's perspective we look through. So, it was the right thing for Xander to do, because he thought is was the right thing to do. He will however have to deal with the fact that Buffy (and probably others) will believe he did the wrong thing. Lies: These characters lie *A Lot*. It's just part of the secret life they live. A tool they need to use. They've even got the whole lying to the parents thing down to a science. I wonder if this would give them a less harsh than normal reaction to being lied to themselves. Mark - slayer@san-diego.crosswinds.net - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 23:33:52 -0500 From: Douglas Carey Subject: BUFFY: I've been wondering this for a while now... Are there any factions on the list?? Jennifer Carey data@gte.net - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 05:45:23 EDT From: Subject: Re: BUFFY: I've been wondering this for a while now... In a message dated 98-06-03 05:29:43 EDT, data@gte.net writes: > Are there any factions on the list?? Factions? What kind of factions? Like armed camps or something? =) LilyRei - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 23:22:05 -0500 From: Douglas Carey Subject: Re: BUFFY: Sarah Mc song > The name of the song is "Full of Grace" on Sarah McLachlan's cd "Surfacing." > By the way, I strongly suggest buying the cd. Just got it, and am listening to the cd right now!! *s* Early b-day (June 6th) present. *S* Jennifer Carey data@gte.net http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/6187/Lovers.html - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 03:15:23 PDT From: "Marat Sade" Subject: BUFFY: Xander lie to buffy (People pleae do no get upset at me) But the subject about Xander lying to Buffy is getting old and frankly I tried of all the messages being about it. Its not that I don't enjoy hear what you poeple say but enough is enough ( go 30 messages and 24 of them had to do with the lie). Marat ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 07:52:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Gubs Subject: Re: BUFFY: Amy The problem with addind amy to the show on a regular basis is that she is too inexperienced with magic to use it responsably and not willing to give it up entirely until she learns. In essence amy is a walking time bomb waiting for something to happen that will send her off. When that happens the fecal matter really hits the rotery air impellor Gubs gnn200@is7.nyu.edu,gabe31@juno.com,nich9354@sparky.cs.nyu.edu - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 08:34:28 EDT From: Subject: Re: BUFFY: Amy In a message dated 98-06-03 07:54:16 EDT, gnn200@is7.nyu.edu writes: << The problem with addind amy to the show on a regular basis is that she is too inexperienced with magic to use it responsably and not willing to give it up entirely until she learns. In essence amy is a walking time bomb >> True, but I never said I wanted her to give up her magic. As for her being a walking time bomb, we already have 2...Oz and Angel, why not add another? Fenris - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 08:38:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeff Barrus Subject: Re: Re: BUFFY: Xander's lie to Buffy in B2 On Tue, 2 Jun 1998 PandyGrrl@aol.com wrote: > Xander either had little faith in her or acted out of spite and jealousy. > Either way you look at it his actions were a direct betrayl of everything his > friendships are founded upon. I just don't agree with this. I really think Xander acted in what he thought were Buffy's best interersts -- really, was Angel redemable for what the demon did while in control? And more to the point, even if Angel was turned good by the recasting of the curse, wouldn't the clause -- that he should never find happiness -- still hold? Wouldn't the curse negate itself when he found happiness again with Buffy? Also, how well do you think Xander understands that Angel and Angelus were two completely different entities? Angel did kill Jenny Calander, along with other people they knew. I personally don't think it would have been completely possible for Buffy's friends, and even Buffy herself to forgive Angel for what Angelus did. Also, look at it this way -- the events of Becoming, including Xander's so-called betrayal were necessary to return the brooding, tortured Angel to us. There's no way his spin-off show would work if he and Buffy would live happily ever after. It's pretty obvious to me that the events of Becoming were meant to further the rift between Buffy and Angel, making it possible for Angel to leave. Getting knocked into hell, I'm sure, did not endear Buffy to him, even though it was necessary to save the earth. - -Jeff - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 08:41:23 EDT From: Subject: Re: BUFFY: Amy In a message dated 98-06-03 08:37:39 EDT, Fenris97@aol.com writes: > True, but I never said I wanted her to give up her magic. As for her being > a walking time bomb, we already have 2...Oz and Angel, why not add another? LOL You're just a glutton for punishment, huh? LilyRei - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 08:46:35 EDT From: Subject: Re: BUFFY: Amy In a message dated 98-06-03 08:41:23 EDT, LilyRei writes: << LOL You're just a glutton for punishment, huh? >> LOL!! No, we all know it's true. Oz's lycanthropy will have to be dealt with next season, my bet is he'll be cured. As for Angel, we already know what makes him snap and revert to the Demon...so, when he gets back from paying his respects in Hell, I think he'll move as far away from Buffy as possible. Hence the new show Angel. Fenris - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 08:46:35 EDT From: Subject: Re: BUFFY: Amy In a message dated 98-06-03 08:41:23 EDT, LilyRei writes: << LOL You're just a glutton for punishment, huh? >> LOL!! No, we all know it's true. Oz's lycanthropy will have to be dealt with next season, my bet is he'll be cured. As for Angel, we already know what makes him snap and revert to the Demon...so, when he gets back from paying his respects in Hell, I think he'll move as far away from Buffy as possible. Hence the new show Angel. Fenris - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 08:50:36 EDT From: Subject: Re: BUFFY: Amy In a message dated 98-06-03 08:46:35 EDT, Fenris97 writes: > LOL!! No, we all know it's true. Oz's lycanthropy will have to be dealt > with next season, my bet is he'll be cured. No! Don't cure Oz. What's the fun in that? I mean we could have some *real* interesting stories with Oz rebelling against his chains and shackles and going on lunar binges. Well, it's kind of hard imagining Oz in rebellion mode, but circumstances could prevent him from getting home to do the chaining thing before he becomes a furry lunatic and things could get interesting again. LilyRei - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 08:50:36 EDT From: Subject: Re: BUFFY: Amy In a message dated 98-06-03 08:46:35 EDT, Fenris97 writes: > LOL!! No, we all know it's true. Oz's lycanthropy will have to be dealt > with next season, my bet is he'll be cured. No! Don't cure Oz. What's the fun in that? I mean we could have some *real* interesting stories with Oz rebelling against his chains and shackles and going on lunar binges. Well, it's kind of hard imagining Oz in rebellion mode, but circumstances could prevent him from getting home to do the chaining thing before he becomes a furry lunatic and things could get interesting again. LilyRei - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 08:59:42 EDT From: Subject: Re: BUFFY: Amy In a message dated 98-06-03 08:50:36 EDT, LilyRei writes: << No! Don't cure Oz. What's the fun in that? I mean we could have some *real* interesting stories with Oz rebelling against his chains and shackles and going on lunar binges. >> Very true, but the gang would be forced to deal with Oz's lycanthropy then. In which case, they'd either cure him or have to kill him. I think that was the main reason we didn't see to much of Oz after we learned he was a werewolf, because the Slayer would have to do her duty and end his rampages. I do think he'll be a pretty active character next season, and I personally hope something happens that allows him to control himself in werewolf form. Like I suggested in an earlier Amy post, why not have Willow seek Amy out and help her cast some spell that gives Oz control of his lycanthropy...so he can change at will and control his actions. Fenris - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 08:59:42 EDT From: Subject: Re: BUFFY: Amy In a message dated 98-06-03 08:50:36 EDT, LilyRei writes: << No! Don't cure Oz. What's the fun in that? I mean we could have some *real* interesting stories with Oz rebelling against his chains and shackles and going on lunar binges. >> Very true, but the gang would be forced to deal with Oz's lycanthropy then. In which case, they'd either cure him or have to kill him. I think that was the main reason we didn't see to much of Oz after we learned he was a werewolf, because the Slayer would have to do her duty and end his rampages. I do think he'll be a pretty active character next season, and I personally hope something happens that allows him to control himself in werewolf form. Like I suggested in an earlier Amy post, why not have Willow seek Amy out and help her cast some spell that gives Oz control of his lycanthropy...so he can change at will and control his actions. Fenris - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 09:37:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Betsy Vera Subject: BUFFY: Re: Giles/Anthony Head In-Joke? On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, Sonja Marie wrote: > Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Buffy is doing an aerobic work-out in the > library to some rock and roll. The music is a re-recording of the "39 > Lashes" from Jesus Christ Superstar. Said song is delivered by Pontius I remembered that Leslie (who keeps the Buffy Music Website) had said something about this music right after Dark Age aired, so I asked her about it. Here's my question and her reply: << Didn't you say that the music that Buffy does her aerobics to in "Dark Age" was generic stuf written by the in-house composer?>> > Yes, the music editor told me that the aerobics music was scored. It's > not source music. If it sounds like source music, it's because the > composer is really good at what the industry calls "sound alikes." I hope this helps clear up the confusion. *--------------------------------------------------------------------* | Betsy Vera | "Emotionally, I have run the gamete." | | bentley@umich.edu | | | bentley.simplenet.com | -- anonymous student paper | * -------------------------------------------------------------------* - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 09:39:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Hickerson Subject: Re: BUFFY: Giles > Giles first reaction to Jenny's death was to beat Angel with a flaming > baseball bat. Then in the library, he defends the recursing as being > Jenny's last wish. Is this consistent behavior/writing? Would he have > taken such a 180 on Angel that he would progress from violence to > forgiveness? Remember that at the moment Jenny was killed and that Giles found he was consumed by anger, rage, pain, etc. His first, primitive thought was probably to seek out that person or thing that had caused him this pain and hurt it as well. Hence, his use of violence on Angel. (I think Buffy says something him not wiging out on her because she needs him at the end of Passions.) Anyway, later, Giles is able to be a bit more rational about the whole thing when not consumed by his passions. Or it could be the same reasonsing as the gypsy curse and why he'd agree to put it back--on some level he wants Angel to suffer for what he's done. And maybe he feels killing him would be too quick an end to that. Also, I'd like to apologize for quoting more than four lines. I know it's against the list rules, but I couldn't get around without not having the quoted material not make sense. Please accept my apologies. Michael mhickers@usit.net - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 09:51:11 -0400 From: David Williams Subject: Re: BUFFY: SMG on Rosie At 01:14 AM 6/3/98 , Lawless wrote: >By the way, Sarah will be on Access Hollywood today (comes on in about twenty >minutes in the East). I taped it, and I didn't see her. Did it get cut, or did I just miss something? BTW, happy to see that smgfan.com found a new home. - -- David Williams Dept. of Theology, Boston College Your weapon was made by the lowest bidder! - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 08:40:27 -0500 From: Mia_McDavid@em.fcnbd.com Subject: Re: BUFFY: Giles Csummers writes: >>Giles first reaction to Jenny's death was to beat Angel with a flaming >>baseball bat (which apparently in Pandora's world only equals dislike, not >>hate--hehe). >>Then in the library, he defends the recursing as being Jenny's last wish. >> Is this consistent behavior/writing? Would he have taken such a 180 on >>Angel that he would progress from violence to forgiveness? The thing is, there is Angel the soulless, vicious vampire (whom we have been calling Angelus for purposes of discussion), versus Angel the "soul"--the personality who was in charge before the curse was lifted. Giles understands that Angel, who was absent, has *nothing to do* with what Angelus did. So he can hate Angelus, beat on Angelus, and still be willing to consider restoring his soul, which effectively imprisons Angelus the demon under the care of Angel the human soul. I think it's entirely consistent. Giles is forgiving nothing; as far as the human soul of Angel goes, there is nothing to forgive. Mia Member WPWP Keeper of the Opening Wolf Howl I *LOVE* this show! - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 09:26:45 -0500 From: Mia_McDavid@em.fcnbd.com Subject: BUFFY: Re:Oz Fenris says Buffy will have to kill Oz because he's a werewolf. But no! Oz is a conscientious fellow. He'd gotten himself all set with brand-new shackles when Willow interrupted him that evening. Lycanthropy runs in his family; he can probably get tips from his uncles on chaining himself up. I DO, though, think it would be cool if he could learn to control it and keep his human mind. What fun! Mia Member WPWP Keeper of the Opening Wolf Howl I *LOVE* this show! - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 09:26:45 -0500 From: Mia_McDavid@em.fcnbd.com Subject: BUFFY: Re:Oz Fenris says Buffy will have to kill Oz because he's a werewolf. But no! Oz is a conscientious fellow. He'd gotten himself all set with brand-new shackles when Willow interrupted him that evening. Lycanthropy runs in his family; he can probably get tips from his uncles on chaining himself up. I DO, though, think it would be cool if he could learn to control it and keep his human mind. What fun! Mia Member WPWP Keeper of the Opening Wolf Howl I *LOVE* this show! - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 07:31:18 PDT From: "Chloe Tyler" Subject: BUFFY: Xander...again >LStew10263@aol.com wrote: ><< Pandora - are you by any chance a Republican? I > think it all comes down to your moral and even political > beliefs in deciding what side to take. >am I way off base here?! >> > >Sharon, Then Mark wrote: <> I must drag myself out of the woodwork to register my vote in this heated discussion. I, too, must abolish this generalization of political affiliations. Like Mark, I'm "an extremely liberal democrat" (bordering on full blown radical, but that's just me) who feels Xander's behavior was petty and morally bankrupt in every possible sense. I won't bother going into the numerous arguments because Pandora (my pbsd sister) and Mark have already done that brilliantly. I feel that Mark is correct in his assessment of the way Republicans view Democrats. Maybe it's misunderstanding as well as fundamental differences in viewing man's tendencies. I for one agree that humans need intervention to prevent them from destroying each other and the world. Am I getting too melodramatic? The stricken masses are already ignored enough as it is. And I won't even get into the fact that the U.S. is the only supposed advanced nation without any form of universal healthcare...Ooops, sorry. I'm in full blown straying from the topic mode. Will try to tame my political passions. Back to Xander---the pbsd appointed fiend. I don't think the point of this debate is the outcome of his indefensable, calculated lie, but is instead the fact that he did lie and take away his friends' autonomy in their own lives. I won't speculate as to whether his motives were selfish jealousy or a desire to help "save the world." Even if his motives were entirely philanthropic, which I seriously doubt, he was not in the position to intervene with his own judgement. The conversation in the library (Becoming 1) in which he voiced his dissent to attempting the curse foreshadowed his offense. He was outraged and externalized this in a way that proved he was not in control of his feelings and not as rational as he seemed to believe. Add to all of this (as Mark pointed out), his longtime friend, Willow, put her own health at risk to attempt the ritual again. She trusted him to make her actions worthwhile. He shunned her trust and did not afford her respect as an equal. Instead, he decided that he knew better and would disregard her potential sacrifice. In effect, he treated her as an inferior---something I feel is entirely unforgivable. There should and most likely will be much fallout when this is confronted. Chloe ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 10:50:27 EDT From: Subject: BUFFY: Re: Oz In a message dated 98-06-03 10:29:36 EDT, Mia_McDavid@em.fcnbd.com writes: << Fenris says Buffy will have to kill Oz because he's a werewolf. >> Ok, let me clear that up...I only said that she would have to kill Oz if he ran around on a rampage, and if the crew couldn't cure him. I personally like the character and of all movie monsters the werewolf is my favorite, but we need to be objective and remember that Buffy is the slayer. If Oz somehow breaks free one night of his shackles and starts running around town killing people, and the crew find out its impossible to cure him...then she'll have to do her duty and dispatch him. Now, I don't think that is going to happen, like I said I think he'll play a major role next season and the crew will either cure him or find a way for him to control it. Fenris - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 11:23:15 -0400 From: Jeff Rohaly Subject: Re: BUFFY: Xander...again "Chloe Tyler" wrote: >I don't think the point of this debate is the outcome of [Xander's] >indefensable, calculated lie, but is instead the fact that he did lie >and take away his friends' autonomy in their own lives. Sort of like Angel's failure to disclose to Buffy that he was lying when he made it seem as though he had never seen Buffy before when they first met? Buffy didn't deserve to know that Angel had known her and who she was for some time, had monitored her at her school, in her bedroom, on the job? She didn't deserve to know that some demon, Whistler, was responsible for her meeting the love of her life? Or sort of like Oz lying to the gang by keeping it to himself after he knew he was a werewolf? Didn't they deserve to know the truth so they form their own judgments about what to do? Or sort of like Giles lying by keeping his past to himself before The Dark Age? Didn't the gang deserve to know that some of the things he had done early on his life could come back to endanger all of them now? Or sort of like Buffy lying to her mother for two years by not telling her she's the Slayer. Didn't Joyce deserve to know that her daughter's life and likely her own were in constant mortal danger? Didn't Joyce deserve to know the exact story of why Angelus had free reign of her house after he turned evil? They all used their own judgment to deceive their friends (and people that were more than just friends), and kept information from their friends that those friends would have used to act differently than they did. They put people's lives in danger with their lies. Do they deserve a whack on the head with a Louisville Slugger too? Or do they, as well as Xander, deserve a little of the understanding and forgiveness that so many people, myself excluded, were willing to give the character of James in IOHEFY. Granted, he didn't lie to anyone, he just waved a loaded gun in front of his loved one, resulting in her violent death. Jeff Rohaly rohaly@iaw.com - - ------------------------------ End of buffy-digest V2 #322 *************************** To subscribe to buffy or buffy-digest, send the command subscribe buffy-digest or subscribe buffy to majordomo@xmission.com. You will need to go through a confirmation process, and the listowners have to manually approve your subscription request, so it may take some time. Back issues of this digest can be found at: ftp://ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/buffy/archive/ For help, contact Jill Kirby (jtkirby@mcs.com) or sah (romana@mindspring.com)