From: owner-buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com (buffy-digest) To: buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: buffy-digest V2 #493 Reply-To: buffy@lists.xmission.com Sender: owner-buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk buffy-digest Wednesday, September 30 1998 Volume 02 : Number 493 In this issue: BUFFY: HORRIBLE! - Worst Ever! Re: BUFFY: Anne: Shoes and Lily song BUFFY: Gonna be in New Orleans for Halloween? BUFFY: Re: HORRIBLE - Worst ever Re: BUFFY: First Episode BUFFY: She HAD to go and do that, didn't she?? BUFFY: Re: Joyce BUFFY: A sentimental moment Re: BUFFY: Library and Giles Re: BUFFY: TO EVERYBODY WHO DIDN'T LIKE THE PREMIERE!!!!! Re: BUFFY: TO EVERYBODY WHO DIDN'T LIKE THE PREMIERE!!!!! Re: BUFFY: First Episode BUFFY: Buffy ratings outside of the big 10. Re: BUFFY: Re: Joyce BUFFY: What is up with everyone bashing eachother?!?!?!?!? slightly OT Re: BUFFY: Buffy TVS and you are? Re: BUFFY: Giles in the background thingie before premiere BUFFY: buffy/angel BUFFY: Re: Joyce Re: BUFFY: Buffy in Hell BUFFY: The Return of Jenny Re: BUFFY: Library and Giles Re: BUFFY: Anne Re: BUFFY: More ratings info for Anne BUFFY: Anne observation Re: BUFFY: Re: Joyce Re: BUFFY: Re: Joyce BUFFY: Re: Just about everything............ BUFFY: Anne, shoes, and other musings See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the buffy or buffy-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 18:58:49 EDT From: Nicoley99@aol.com Subject: BUFFY: HORRIBLE! - Worst Ever! Okay, I am going to include spoiler space right after I make a quick point. For all of you people that take offense to opinionated people like myself stating how much I hated this episode... please do not read on... thank you. W O R S T E P I S O D E I V E E V E R S E E N ! ! ! Okay, that should be enough... if it's not... whatever, you were warned. Let me just start off by being blunt, and getting it off my chest. I'm sure I'm just repeating what everyone else has said, but I feel much better saying it myself! I have never, EVER been disappointed in a Buffy episode... until LAST NIGHT. I have been waiting all summer for THAT?! Come on! I know this is terribly cruel, Joss does a great job writing, but this has got to be his crappiest piece of work yet. Where did all of his good ideas go? Not into this episode, obviously. Let me get to WHY. Okay, this episode got us nowhere with last season's finale. There was NOTHING between Buffy/Angel, Buffy/slayerettes, Buffy/new slayer. Oh wow, joy joy, we got a one minute glimpse of Buffy going home.... SO disappointing! That ''hell'' was pathetic! A factory!? That's supposed to be ''demonic''? Okay, the makeup was really great on the demons... well, if you -think- they're demons... since they never said! Buffy's hair was just... ugh.... no comment... none whatsoever. It was neat that Joss brought that Lily chick back for another episode... but helloooo?... can we say LACKING TALENT?! I have never been so disappointed in a guest appearance as I was with her. I had a buffy premiere party over at my house... we were all totally psyched when the show started, and after about 20 minutes, we all started getting restless, and complaining about what a letdown this episode was! Season opener?! It wouldn't even be able to hold a spot in the MIDDLE of the season! And what's this with no previews for next week? Now I've not only been let down by the Buffy writers, but the WB is jipping the show on preview time? For Felicity?! Whatever... I can't believe I waited all summer for this premiere... it's an insult to all of us devoted Buffy fans, and it's an insult to the past two seasons. That's all I have to say. Nicole (very angry, and VERY disappointed) - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 18:45:51 -0300 (ADT) From: cat Subject: Re: BUFFY: Anne: Shoes and Lily song lily songs, i dunno, [asides from the one you mentioned], but yes yes yes, i noticed the shoe-swipe, too. i was doubting my memory at first cos i hadn't watched my tape again to check. but if you saw it too, it must've been true. byebyeyebeybye, cat On Wed, 30 Sep 1998 AmberR3203@aol.com wrote: > Okay, I need someone to confirm that I am not going crazy. When Buffy pulls > herself up on the chain to get back to the portal she is wearing tan colored, > suede, Jack Purcells, but when she goes to whack Ken on the head she is > wearing Nike (hee hee sweat shop) type shoes complete with gel pockets in the > soles. Am I losing it, or just obsessing too much? Please look at your tapes > and let me know : ) Also, can anyone think of what songs Lily's name could > have come from? (She says that her boyfriend guy picked it from a song) The > only one I can think of is "Lily (my one and only)" by Smashing Pumpkins, off > Melloncollie and the Infinite Sadness. > --AMBER ROSE-- > Keeper of nothing but my own love for the show and plan to get all of my > friends hooked : ) j/k - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 19:06:52 -0400 From: Vampire Junction Subject: BUFFY: Gonna be in New Orleans for Halloween? My friends and I will be going to New Orleans again this Halloween for Anne Rice's Vamp Ball. If any of the you are going to be there, please let me know off list and maybe we can get together and talk about the show. Candy - -- "Passion is the source of our finest moments. The joy of love, the clarity of hatred and the ecstacy of grief. It hurts sometimes more than we can bear. If we could live without passion, maybe we'd know some kind of peace. But we would be hollow. Empty rooms...shuttered and dank - without passion we'd be truly dead. --Angel BTVS "Passion" Visit Vampire Junction at http://www.afn.org/~vampires/ - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 19:09:21, -0500 From: WhiteRoses20@prodigy.com (MS LAURA DIEHL) Subject: BUFFY: Re: HORRIBLE - Worst ever > That's all I have to say. > >Nicole (very angry, and VERY disappointed) I just wanted to say thank you to Nicole, for voicing her opinion without dropping the tone to the garbage level and without being inflammatory in her expressions of disappointment. I might not agree with everything she said, but it was one of the better reports on angry reactions I've read today. Hope things get better for you in what the show has to offer in the future, Nicole. As for me, I was not let down, and am looking at this as a way for characters to develop and some tension to build instead of dropping a huge action/emotion packed bomb on us in Ep 1 and thrn trying to keep up with it the rest of the season. I was just darn happy to have some new Buffy!!! Lar - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 19:15:17 EDT From: AuroraGlxy@aol.com Subject: Re: BUFFY: First Episode >Larry's mention of "mysterious deaths". I was rolling for that one... Speaking of, why was Larry at school? Was he not a senior last year? I get this impression because when he went up to Oz in "Phases" he said something like "So, Oz, dating a Junior huh? What's up with that? I mean, she's gotta be putting out, right?" If Larry was a Junior, which him being in the season opener suggested, he wouldn't have had that much contempt for oz dating a junior. Unless he's one of those freaked out guys who only dates older girls... or, uh, guys in Larry's case. Amanda ICQ #16963652, BXL member#57, Proud Member of Spuffy Official Keeper of *Xander's wanting to have sex when looking at linoleum just because he's 17 (Innocence)*, *Xander's economy phrasing -- "We'd be in trouble." & "Gone." (Surprise)*, *Xander's nickname "Lookin Around Guy" (GF)*, *Xander's Quotes: "I mean, if I thought you had one clue what it would mean to me... But you don't. So I can't." & "You can paint this any way you want, but the way I see it is that you wanna' forget all about Ms. Calendar's murder so you can get your boyfriend back." - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 98 18:03:46 PDT From: "Sapphire" Subject: BUFFY: She HAD to go and do that, didn't she?? Last night, she committed the ultimate sin in my book. She dissed my man = Giles. Anyone interested in joining the People for the Unethical Treatment of = Joyce? See http://www.busprod.com/aclaybor/putj/ Sapphire: PUTJ, CoS, X-Over admin, GASPer; Creeker Numero Uno, DC list admin; http://www.busprod.com/aclaybor Keeper of Willow's momentary obsession with sore thumbs, Willow's whimper of sadness for her dead fish and her fake frog fit in = KBD Keeper of Gile's Occasional Befuddled Look - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 18:54:18 -0400 From: sah Subject: BUFFY: Re: Joyce At 05:44 PM 9/30/98 -0500, Ryan Reid wrote: >She may respond realistically if it was the beginning of the summer, but >she's had all summer to deal with this and realize she's just being a bitch! I feel sorry for her, and understand her reaction completely--her daughter spills some heavy shit on her, then disappears, and Joyce has to cope with the fact that her daughter has this dangerous secret identity and a nefarious relationship with an older male teacher. If she's not reacting like a perfect human being can you really fault her? And why is Joyce a bitch for reacting badly but Buffy's not a bitch for running out on her friends *and* her responsibilities? >but i think joyce show's her real >bitchy side in Becoming/Anne. I think joyce should be at TOTAL blame for >Buffy's absence, because she even told her not to come back! Which is such an incredibly real, heat-of-the-moment parental thing to say, IMO. Can't fault her, and if she's slow to take the blame that's a problem, but not a fatal flaw. After all, Buffy and Giles and everyone else in the know basically played her for a fool for years. I'd be angry and hurt, too, quite frankly. >No offense to you personally, sah, but i'm just feeling anti joyce at the >moment! LOL Jill and I have a theory that the younger members of the list don't like Joyce, while us Buffyholics have an easier time seeing where she's coming from. I was amazed at how much smarter my parents got as I got older. :-) - --sah sah * romana@mindspring.com * romana@aol.com NatPack * Jungle Patrol * Bishop * BBPG:TGLIL * BTVS Colistowner AVENGERS poll: http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Set/1932/avengers/index.html "I support him as President, but privately I hope Hillary cuts his nuts off." -slb - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 18:17:06 -0500 From: "Ryan Reid" Subject: BUFFY: A sentimental moment hey everyone this isn't really buffy related, but i just wanted to let you guys know what an awesome list this is! i mean, i really didn't enjoy it over the summer because it was the same topics over and over, but now i'm really learning to appreciate this list for what it is! i think you guys are great! i mean, for the most part, we can carry on with intelligent coversation about all the buffy goings on, and still not end up with pointless bickering and people usually don't take things personally! i just wanted to let you all know this is the best list i've ever been on! Ryan Keeper of Cordelia's* yellow backless dress* from Becoming 2. Keeper of Opening Credits for Season 3. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 19:17:57 EDT From: Arakzile@aol.com Subject: Re: BUFFY: Library and Giles I just watched the episode again, and I noticed that too! I like it....it's harder to do things in a contiuous motion when your taking about television, because of all the timing issues.....I liked it and I applaud Nick, Charisma, Allyson, Seth and that football player guys and all the camera people who pulled it off successfully! Kara In a message dated 98-09-30 18:03:59 EDT, rohaly@iaw.com writes: << I picked up on the fact that there weren't any cuts and that's what gave it that unusual feel. Was I just particularly inattentive and did other people notice this right away? >> - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 19:20:30 EDT From: Arakzile@aol.com Subject: Re: BUFFY: TO EVERYBODY WHO DIDN'T LIKE THE PREMIERE!!!!! In a message dated 98-09-30 18:30:30 EDT, st96p9ak@post.drexel.edu writes: << SARAH WAS GREAT, THE EFFECTS WERE NOWERE NEAR CHEESY, ARE YOU PEOPLE CRAZY HOW CAN SOMEONE SAY THEY WERE CHEESY. >> Just to clarify myself, the only thing that I said faintly of cheese, was the whole maks thing on the guy who was saying, "Who are you?" other than that the effects were perfect, the acting was wonderful and I loved it! Kara - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 19:20:29 EDT From: Tracyrr74@aol.com Subject: Re: BUFFY: TO EVERYBODY WHO DIDN'T LIKE THE PREMIERE!!!!! Can we say rude much? Everyone is entitled to thier own opinions!!!!!!! I for one loved the new episode but will not force the rest of those that didn't like it to love it! Did that make sense? Sorry brain in not in total thinking mode after that post Tra - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 19:22:00 EDT From: JessTear@aol.com Subject: Re: BUFFY: First Episode In a message dated 9/30/98 4:18:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time, AuroraGlxy@aol.com writes: << Speaking of, why was Larry at school? Was he not a senior last year? >> Larry was more than likely held back. I mean, the character was the stereotypical football playin' moron. Or at least that's how I always perceived him. - - Jess - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 17:19:41 -0700 From: "Doyce Testerman" Subject: BUFFY: Buffy ratings outside of the big 10. >Can you tell me how about Florida, it may not be in >the 10 largest bt I would like to know! I personally would like to know where to look on the internet for information like this, if such info is available to the general public. (Specifically, I'm curious about Denver and Minn/StPaul.) - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 19:08:47 -0400 From: sah Subject: Re: BUFFY: Re: Joyce OK, that last from me wasn't supposed to go to the list as a whole, and I apologize for some of the language. And I meant "buffyatric" rather than "buffyholic." Gotta remember to check the to: fields more carefully. :-) - --sah sah * romana@mindspring.com * romana@aol.com NatPack * Jungle Patrol * Bishop * BBPG:TGLIL * BTVS Colistowner AVENGERS poll: http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Set/1932/avengers/index.html "I support him as President, but privately I hope Hillary cuts his nuts off." -slb - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 19:23:16 EDT From: Arakzile@aol.com Subject: BUFFY: What is up with everyone bashing eachother?!?!?!?!? slightly OT Hey guys, Why are we attacking eachother? We all love Buffy, and that's why we're on the list! If people have different opinions about episodes, that's their OPINION...they have the right to it, the namecalling is not very good either......Buffy rocks, and everyone knows it! Kara - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 17:53:16 -0400 From: "~Ripe, Wicked Plum~" Subject: Re: BUFFY: Buffy TVS and you are? F.Y.G. wrote: > And for the intellectualites...the symbolism in the hell was interesting > especially with Buffy's weapons...a hammer and a sickle? I must have missed the sickle...I think you're talking about the hunga-munga...it's a hunting weapon that cannot be thrown wrong...no matter how you throw it, it will cut. ~Ripe Wicked Plum~ - -- ICQ UIN=2607806 Goth Spike All hail the Lettuce King! I'm a Spike Girl, ask me how! Spike's Ducks...and proud of it! President and founder of the Leo is a Bloody Whelp Club Proud member of Spuffy! One of Spike's Minions. I am the very model of a modern Major General (#5) in the Stake Off Online Army, that is! Spike's #2 Sweetie - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 19:25:24 EDT From: VampGrl22@aol.com Subject: Re: BUFFY: Giles in the background thingie before premiere In a message dated 98-09-30 17:47:01 EDT, slayer@swlink.net writes: << Giles said "I don't know how to stop it without killing Angel", it looked like a scene from Dark Ages, you know cause of his clothes and such. But I was sure in Dark Ages that he says "I don't know how to stop it without killing Jenny". Am I going crazy or did they alter the words!>> When I first saw this I was thinking that I didn't remember Giles ever saying this line with Angel's name in it like that, and now that you mention it , I do remember this from the Dark Ages. Humm... a mistake? VampGirl Keeper of Willow's interrogation techniques (GF), Xander's design plans for the very tiny fence he believed Buffy was buliding (WttH), Joyce's industrial strength detergent (for getting the blood out of Buffy's clothes), Dru's "Angel always knows what speaks to a girl's heart," (BBB), Xander's "Oh yea baby, its snake-o-licious in here (IOHEFY), Giles' weapons cabinet in the library, adoptive mother to fishman Gage (GF), owner of 250 shares of David Boreanz, BRLQ #67, GASPer - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 19:27:07 EDT From: AuroraGlxy@aol.com Subject: BUFFY: buffy/angel I just want to say that I find it somewhat disturbing that some of you were upset about the lack of angel/buffy in "Anne." And it's not because I'm totally NOT a fan of the relationship, but because BTVS is NOT completely about buffy and angel's relationship. I'm a fan of buffy/zander and buffy/spike (whichever one comes first) but I'm not complaining about the complete lack of interaction between them. If this show was about the buffy/angel concept then the title wouldn't be "Buffy the Vampire Slayer," it would be "The Buffy and Angel Show." I thank we should be thankful for the fact that there's a show at all and not be ready to kill joss because he took a break of the buffy/angel angle. Amanda ICQ #16963652, BXL member#57, Proud Member of Spuffy, Official Keeper of *Xander's wanting to have sex when looking at linoleum just because he's 17 (Innocence)*, *Xander's economy phrasing -- "We'd be in trouble." & "Gone." (Surprise)*, *Xander's nickname "Lookin Around Guy" (GF)*, *Xander's Quotes: "I mean, if I thought you had one clue what it would mean to me... But you don't. So I can't." & "You can paint this any way you want, but the way I see it is that you wanna' forget all about Ms. Calendar's murder so you can get your boyfriend back." UnOfficial Keeper of Buffy and Spike's obvious sexual tension - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 18:26:03 -0500 From: "Ryan Reid" Subject: BUFFY: Re: Joyce >I feel sorry for her, and understand her reaction completely--her daughter >spills some heavy shit on her, then disappears, and Joyce has to cope with >the fact that her daughter has this dangerous secret identity and a >nefarious relationship with an older male teacher. If she's not reacting >like a perfect human being can you really fault her? I can understand joyce's anger and grief, BUT i just think she is always being a little self abosorbed and not seeing the big picture all the time. and i understand her anger at buffy for not "having time" to explain, i'd be pissed too, but i think joyce should have a little more compassion than to tell her daughter to never come back. i understand it was said in the heat of the moment and shouldn't be taken as joyce's sober feelings ( cuz she may have been slightly drunk ) but i just know i will never say that to one of my kids when i have them. >And why is Joyce a >bitch for reacting badly but Buffy's not a bitch for running out on her >friends *and* her responsibilities? Buffy did more than run away from her responsiblities and her friends, but she was also running away from the cops, and still is, i mean Buffy is a wanted suspected murderer! she had to haul ass out of town! plus she had some *major* issues to deal with, and i thought her return to sunnydale at the end of the ep was TOTALLY appropriate becasue she realized who she was and she kinda sucked up the events of becoming and is now moving on with her life. >Jill and I have a theory that the younger members of the list don't like >Joyce, while us Buffyholics have an easier time seeing where she's coming >from. I was amazed at how much smarter my parents got as I got older. :-) > i guess you're right (except i'm young AND a buffyholic!) i wouldn't be able to see it from a parental point of view. i just want it to be known i don't hate joyce! i just think she's handling things totally wrong. Ryan Keeper of Cordelia's* yellow backless dress* from Becoming 2. Keeper of Opening Credits for Season 3. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 98 18:15:10 PDT From: "Sapphire" Subject: Re: BUFFY: Buffy in Hell - ---------- > didn't look for Angel. But I believe, and I may be wrong, that she wasn= 't in > THE hell. She was in a kind of hell, but not THE hell. Watch the scene = where > buffy and lily are in the cell. Lily says something about it being hell= and > "ken" contradicts her. He said it's like hell, but he never said it WAS= hell. > Yes, he said the world 'reality'. I am of the opinion they were from a = different dimension, or reality, kind of like 'Sliders', perhaps. The word hell was basically = him picking up on their conversation. I think that Buffy realized that it wasn't really hel= l as well, just evil people from another dimension that found humans easy to enslave and use = for hard labor. Sapphire - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 18:32:29 -0500 From: "Ryan Reid" Subject: BUFFY: The Return of Jenny ok, i REALLY want jenny to come back, so i was thinking of ways to do it, WITHOUT it being dreams or illusions... - - Jenny was actually turned into a vampire... i know we all saw her "death" but hey, stranger things have happened! - - Jenny has a mysterious twin who came to town to visit her sisters grave and decided to stay! Ryan Keeper of Cordelia's* yellow backless dress* from Becoming 2. Keeper of Opening Credits for Season 3. - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 16:34:04 -0700 (PDT) From: a mockingbird girl Subject: Re: BUFFY: Library and Giles On Wed, 30 Sep 1998, Jeff Rohaly wrote: > It's all one continuous uncut camera shot. It was an interesting effect. [..] > I watched it that I picked up on the fact that there weren't any cuts and > that's what gave it that unusual feel. Was I just particularly inattentive > and did other people notice this right away? I noticed it as well. It leads me back to why I liked the episode but there seemingly chopping editing/lighting created a rather disjointed effect. In the long shot, it wasn't really obvious until the camera swings straight at Larry, almost misses him, and then rights himself. (Unless that was a deliberate off-center shot, which is possible considering the teacher.) I have to appreciate the choreography and timing. You can also tell where they try to smoothly segue from Lily and "Anne" talking into a video sequence of the homeless people (it doesn't have that movie/tv look to it, it might be handheld because it does shake a touch) but it almost doesn't work because of the lighting emphasis. (Lily and Buffy are more in the shadows and then there's more of a spotlight on the montage) debbie - a) who could be talking out of her butt because it's been over a day since i've watched it and i'm not a film student b) who's heard something interesting from our kinda-Buffy Bulletin Board. She said that now Buffy is more popular, it's more boy-oriented character focus than females. Well? =) dia@fidalgo.net for the mail, webpage, and other misc. complaints =) - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 19:33:42 EDT From: Chewie615@aol.com Subject: Re: BUFFY: Anne In a message dated 98-09-30 11:54:56 EDT, you write: > When a Vamp is dusted by a stake through the heart the stake remains intact. > Not always so; when someone keeps hold of the stake, it stays witht hem to be sure, however, when it is left in the vampire's chest, it disappears. I've noticed this before too, so I took some time and made my observations. One little thing I noticed in Anne, and I rewound the ep to make sure, when the camera goes to a close up of Buffy's feet while climbing up the ladder after escaping, she's wearing different shoes, canvas like ones. But in the rest of the ep, she has on tennis shoes. I thought it might have just beent he one's Sophia was wearing, but during the stunt scenes, they are tennis shoes as well. I wonder what happened? Stay Buffilicious, (this is my line of course, I take all ownerships) Mary Official Keeper of the quote: "You're going to die, and the only hope you have of surviving this is to get out of this pit right now and my God could you have a dorkier outfit?" - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 16:36:20 -0700 (PDT) From: a mockingbird girl Subject: Re: BUFFY: More ratings info for Anne > Here are last night's household ratings for Buffy and Felicity in each of > the 10 largest TV markets in the country: > Boston -- Buffy: 8.2/12, Felicity: 6.5/10 Ha! Felicity viewership *dropped* after Buffy! We know our quality! ;) debbie - not biased in any way whatsoever. =) dia@fidalgo.net for the mail, webpage, and other misc. complaints =) - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 19:38:31 EDT From: Spotilla@aol.com Subject: BUFFY: Anne observation Is it just me or did Oz's stake look a like it was once a baseball bat? The bottom part looked like the end of a bat to me but hey I could just be seeing things... Anne Keeper of Willow's short pigtails, The time when Willow was last in Xander's bed, and Willow's conviction - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 98 18:36:40 PDT From: "Sapphire" Subject: Re: BUFFY: Re: Joyce > >Jill and I have a theory that the younger members of the list don't = like > >Joyce, while us Buffyholics have an easier time seeing where she's com= ing > >from. I was amazed at how much smarter my parents got as I got older.= :-) > > Well, I'm not a younger member, and I am not fond of Joyce. She blames = *Giles* for Buffy leaving? I would say that 'if you leave this has, you can never= come back' would have been a big influence on the life of a seventeen year old girl.= I don't think that Joyce is really in the know yet, either. She says she feels like Gil= es took her away from her. IN some cultures, he would have done just that, instead of making = Buffy's life and his, harder having sneak Joyce, protecting her from the truth. If given the = opportunity, would Joyce rather not know what she knows now about Buffy? I am not sure that = would want the knowledge. Denial is a much more peaceful way to live your life,= for some. It is obvious that Joyce is still not getting the whole 'chosen one' thin= g. She also seems to forget that Buffy was doing this sort of thing in LA, long before she met= Giles. Her inability to see what is happening in her daughter's life, and to accept what she sees= right in front her definitely helped push Buffy the situation where she felt she *had* to = leave. Staying home and fighting with your mother, or save the world from being sucked into = hell? I know what choice *I* would have made, in Buffy's shoes. Joyce, however, having seen= that vamp explode right before her eyes, and being informed of what Buffy was, said= the wrong thing. Period. There are some things you just shouldn't say, being angry is not = an excuse for that, IMO. But, that's just my opinion. ;) Sapphire - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 19:54:42 -0400 From: sah Subject: Re: BUFFY: Re: Joyce At 06:36 PM 9/30/98 PDT, Sapphire wrote: >Well, I'm not a younger member, and I am not fond of Joyce. A gross oversimplification on my part. My apologies. >If given the opportunity, would >Joyce rather not know what she knows now about Buffy? I am not sure that would >want the knowledge. Denial is a much more peaceful way to live your life, for >some. Very true, but how many of us can *honestly* say that we told our parents everything we did, or that they *knew* everything we did? Or even that we would *want* our parents to know. I think the Buffy-Joyce relationship is a perfect metaphor for that, taken to extremes. Maybe Joyce didn't want to know, but maybe Buffy didn't want to tell her. I *do* think Joyce, rightfully so, feels slighted that there's been this huge secret that directly impacted on her life, and nobody saw fit to tell her. Also, the point is moot. Joyce *didn't* really get a say in whether she knows the information or not. She's had it thrust upon her, in the worst possible way, IMO. Kinda like Buffy not having a choice in being the Slayer. An interesting bond between them, to sort of be thrust in this situation. However, Buffy, unlike Joyce, has a support system, or did until she bugged out of Sunnydale. Joyce doesn't really have anyone except Buffy. >Joyce, however, having seen that vamp explode right before her eyes, and being >informed of what Buffy was, said the wrong thing. Period. There are some >things you just shouldn't say, being angry is not an excuse for that, Agreed, Joyce said the wrong thing. A very human reaction, *especially* since she just saw a guy explode right before her eyes (don't you just hate it when that happens). However, that's one thing that *a lot* of parents say in the heat of anger, so I don't think anyone should hold it against her in the long term. And since Buffy came back, she's obviously not holding it against her anymore. Look, I'm not suggesting that Joyce's reaction was perfect or appropriate, because it wasn't. But it *was* real. So she's not perfect. Neither is Buffy. - --sah sah * romana@mindspring.com * romana@aol.com NatPack * Jungle Patrol * Bishop * BBPG:TGLIL * BTVS Colistowner AVENGERS poll: http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Set/1932/avengers/index.html "I support him as President, but privately I hope Hillary cuts his nuts off." -slb - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 17:12:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Ali Subject: BUFFY: Re: Just about everything............ List Mommy Jill: thank you for your response about posts dissapearing, it reappeared in digest 489 or 90 (cannot remember) WUWT? well anyway thanks. My opinion: This was a good ep, not the best, but it kind of ranks up there with some of the first season ones. It had a good plot, but it was a little underdeveloped. There was so much more they could have done to develop it. It is sad they only have one hour to work within. Some could say that they could have done a two parter, but is that the way to start the season, with another cliffhanger? NO. I think they should have done a "what happened this summer" ep, or at least given us a glimpse instead of the "previously on buffy". I loved the opening scene with Willow and her wonderful lines. Those are classic. I loved the fight scenes in "hell". Kudos to Sophia. She deserves a whole bag full (and more) of congrats. She is now in the credits. It was cool seeing Jeff at the door of "hell". More Kudos to the stunt team. No one needs to quote me and tell me that I am wrong. Because I never said I was right. its JMHO. But the below is FACT. MINOR STUFF,but it COUNTS Ok, this is in response to to someone talking about the horrible werewolf costume oz had. Joss was on the PB one time, and he did say they got a much BETTER outfit...... AND, a place you can find a listing of the eps is at the BRONZE COMMUNITY PAGE. This has all the released names of the eps so far. back to lurkdom. Ali _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 19:17:01 -0500 From: Clark and Erin Hutton Subject: BUFFY: Anne, shoes, and other musings First things first: no Amber, you didn't hallucinate the shoes. I noticed, too. Every now and then I like to see flubs...it reminds me that our production folks are human. While I wasn't blown away by Anne, it was definately good to have something new to watch. I've missed the Scooby gang over the long, hot summer. The demons were a little Go-fishy, but I can deal. I would like to have known a bit more about them...what was it that they're making down there? (besides old people?--grin) Actually, I spent the last half of the episode hoping against hope that Buffy WOULDN'T find Angel in this hell/pseudo-hell/whatever. I would have been really upset if she did. Angel though I love, it would have been inappropriate to resolve such issues so quickly. We need to suffer more, and Joss knows it. I'm looking forward to seeing the gang reunited. Though I appreciated the character development (and the need for Buffy to be alone), I missed the complete ensemble work. For me, episodes are strongest when the whole gang is together. It felt a little off. Maybe that was the point. I really appreciated the part of Michael's post which said that WSWB was much better when viewed at the end of the season. I imagine this will be true for "Anne" also... the time spent away will be better appreciated once the Slayer is home. Thanks for the perspective. Kudos to Joss for the silence at the end of the episode. It would have been so easy to let the characters speak. Thanks for choosing the better option! Erin - - ------------------------------ End of buffy-digest V2 #493 *************************** To subscribe to buffy or buffy-digest, send the command subscribe buffy-digest or subscribe buffy to majordomo@xmission.com. You will need to go through a confirmation process, and the listowners have to manually approve your subscription request, so it may take some time. Back issues of this digest can be found at: ftp://ftp.xmission.com/pub/lists/buffy/archive/ For help, contact Jill Kirby (jtkirby@mcs.com) or sah (romana@mindspring.com)