From: owner-buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com (buffy-digest) To: buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: buffy-digest V2 #533 Reply-To: buffy@lists.xmission.com Sender: owner-buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk buffy-digest Wednesday, October 21 1998 Volume 02 : Number 533 In this issue: BUFFY: dr. jekyll & mr. hyde meets the wolf man (10/20 ep) BUFFY: I'm seeing a pattern... BUFFY: Angel's Return / Christian Magic BUFFY: B&tB BUFFY: call of the wild BUFFY: What is the Buffy/Angel "theme" music? Re: BUFFY: Potential slayers BUFFY: Where does Buffy Live? Re: BUFFY: Where does Buffy Live? BUFFY: Beauty and the Beasts Re: BUFFY: Beauty & the beasts SPOILERS BUFFY: another glowing local review BUFFY: Willow's Lunchbox BUFFY: Xander Betrayal - New Info from Joss Re: BUFFY: Scooby Vamps..... BUFFY: Beasts and Seth info Re: BUFFY: Lunch Box BUFFY: Anthony Head on KTLA Thurs BUFFY: Beautiful Beasties (Spoilers for "Beauty & the Beasts") BUFFY: Feminists and Xander wearing skaky cothes Re: BUFFY: Beauty and the Beast Re: BUFFY: Xander Betrayal - Where are you guys? BUFFY: Demon dimension/Ken's "Hell" [none] BUFFY: ??TPTB?? Re: BUFFY: ??TPTB?? BUFFY: cool show Re: BUFFY: Beauty and the Beast See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the buffy or buffy-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 23:02:30 EDT From: Coolkarma@aol.com Subject: BUFFY: dr. jekyll & mr. hyde meets the wolf man (10/20 ep) ok, so this wasn't the most engrossing ep in the whole series, but it had its moments. among them: the fight between oz and the baddie of the week. it reminded me of all those old horror movies (frankenstein meets the wolf man, etc). the parallel between buffy/angel and the other couple. the girl is distraught over her love for a monster, as buffy was when angel was angelus. angel's defense of oz. okay, so he can live with oz being a wolf, and even stick up for him, but can't do the same for angel? because, just like angel, oz has no control over what he does while in monster mode. the half monty bit. probably the funniest scene in the whole ep for me. i remember someone (can't remember who) was irked by the whole abuse thing. but this show has always dealt with issues like that. these are a few examples off the top of my head: anne (homelessness), lie to me (cancer) phases (homosexuality) and go fish (steroid use). tackling real life issues helps give the show its realism. i think in every case it was handled naturally and honestly. one other thing: buffy's "hills are alive" comment. didn't jenny calendar say something like that in a previous ep? notably absent: snyder (probably conspiring with the mayor), and joyce (probably at a parents and friends of vampire slayers meeting). gary - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 23:22:04 -0400 From: "J. Andrew Lipscomb" Subject: BUFFY: I'm seeing a pattern... Willow: "... part of our whole mission statement. Don't get killed." Buffy: "First rule of slaying: don't die." Buffy: "Here's something that works--don't get hit." J. Andrew Lipscomb ewwa@chattanooga.net Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 23:53:13 -0400 (EDT) From: "Kte'pi" Subject: BUFFY: Angel's Return / Christian Magic Mia McDavid said : > You're also right that traditional Christian thought leaves no place for > magic, which is used extensively in the show. Yet, the blessing of holy water > or the consecration of the Host is not magic, it is prayer, and it also has > effect here. > > Not sure there's a way to reconcile this, but it would be fun to watch Joss > try! I suspect Joss will avoid addressing many religious issues - "Hell" has apparently become "the demon dimension," after all (ugh). However, Christianity and Judaism both explicitly acknowledge the presence and efficacy of magic. It's just that Christianity as it's trickled down in modern churches has little if anything to do with the text of the Bible. There are, for starters, the magicians of the Pharaoh in Exodus, whose staves are devoured by Moses's; the witch Solomon (or Saul? I can never remember) consults; Simon the Magician in the New Testament; etc. And the difference between miracles and magic seems iffy when the miracle-workers aren't believers - like when the Scooby gang uses holy water or crosses. ----- Bill Kte'pi http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/4186/ bwkF93@hamp.hampshire.edu - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 21:59:35 -0600 From: kmasters@rof.net (Katie Masters) Subject: BUFFY: B&tB When Buffy was spilling her guts to the counsler, was I the only one who thought that she might tell him about her being the slayer and that it would end up being Mr. Snyder in the chair? - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 21:03:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Thu Ngo Subject: BUFFY: call of the wild Hey Buffy-ers! Ya know how the voiceover at the beginning (Buffy and Willow) was an excerpt from "Call of the Wild" (by Jack London, if ya didn't know)? Well, was the voiceover at the end from that book too? Cuz that's what I was thinking... On a couple of totally unrelated notes, does anybody else here think that Eliza Dushku looks like Katie Holmes? I noticed this last week. I thought it was ironic how Katie was originally cast as Buffy, and now one of the slayers kinda looks like her... (Don't yell at me or anything if you disagree. It's just my opinion.) And I thought that Platt kinda looked like Hootie. (You know, Hootie and the Blowfish.) Oh, and I loved the ending, with Buffy and Angel. Many tears were shed. I thought Seth Green was great! Oh, question: When Willow fainted at the morgue, was that from the disgustingness, or the formaldehyde, or what? It happened fast, and at first I thought she got hit by something, but nothing else of the sort happened, so I was confused. == Peace & Love, Thu Ngo ~ savoir127@yahoo.com ~ "I can make no apologies for following my heart." ~Gavin Rossdale "Hold me now so that I never drown." "Girl power, MY ASS!" ~Shirley Manson "You come on like a drug, I just can't get enough." _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 22:11:09 -0600 From: "Nicole Neilan" Subject: BUFFY: What is the Buffy/Angel "theme" music? Ok, dumb question, but what is that melody that plays during the recent Buffy/Angel moments? It played when Buffy told Giles and Willow in the library about Angel being cured before she killed him. It played when Angel fell to his knees and hugged her at the end of tonight's episode. And I'm sure several other scenes I'm forgetting. It's driving me nuts not knowing. Nicole - - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 20:27:49 -0400 From: tedjmill@mindspring.com Subject: Re: BUFFY: Potential slayers Steve Brown Sunday, October 18, 1998 3:44 PM >Exactly when was it established that a Slayer does not have full >abilities before she is called. Isn't it implied by the "one Slayer" rule? Until Buffy's death and revival, there was only one Slayer at a time. If Kendra had had full Slayer abilities before she was called when Buffy died, wouldn't there have been two Slayers all along? - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 21:23:30 -0700 From: Douglas Carey Subject: BUFFY: Where does Buffy Live? Yeah, I know this sounds like a weird question, but it's for a contest in my newspaper. Was it ever released either Buffy's address, or street?? I can't remember any time but...maybe I'm wrong. Thanks!!! Jennifer Carey data@gte.net - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 23:32:41 -0500 From: Lisa Subject: Re: BUFFY: Where does Buffy Live? >Yeah, I know this sounds like a weird question, but it's for a contest >in my newspaper. Was it ever released either Buffy's address, or >street?? I can't remember any time but...maybe I'm wrong. 1630 Rebello Drive.... She said it on the phone in "Angel" when she called for an ambulance for her mom. And a contest in your newspaper? How cool!!! Lisa <-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-> xanderkeepers@geocities.com (Xander Keepers) - - or - cultjam@geocities.com Maintainer of the Official Xander Keepers Site http://www.geocities.com/~xanderkeepers - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 00:33:45 EDT From: Jyinyang@aol.com Subject: BUFFY: Beauty and the Beasts It's good to know that it wasn't just me who thought it was Snyder sitting in the chair. I was just waiting for him to turn around with his little troll face and say something nasty to Buffy and her pouring-out-of-heart. Next, when they showed the shadow of Angel's body where he fell, wasn't it facing the wrong way? I thought he fell facing the other way. As for Giles being concerned that Buffy fell asleep, I think the fact there hadn't been a body that morning like there was when Xander did was why he didn't throw a Giles-fit. We came upon the scene between Giles and Xander after they'd discovered that someone had died during the night and died a rather ugly death. I think the novelty of Oz _is_ the fact that he doesn't have a range of emotions. We don't expect him to express extreme happiness, sadness, or even anger. Oh yeah, where do you suppose Angel got pants? I mean, he landed in the buff and all.... I think this point was brought up on another newsgroup but I was watching the official buffy tapes and yes, the scanner used to check out books was there before this season so I guess the library really hasn't undergone a big transformation after all... When do you suppose Whistler is coming back? (I don't read spoilers so this is just a general speculation question) Lastly, I'm very proud to say that I've now officially converted my roommate/best friend to become a Buffy fan! Now she can no longer mock my obsession. In fact, she's watching The Witch as I type. :-) Joce jyinyang@aol.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 00:37:24 EDT From: Tracyrr74@aol.com Subject: Re: BUFFY: Beauty & the beasts SPOILERS In a message dated 10/20/98 8:15:39 PM Central Daylight Time, sugar@toronto.crosswinds.net writes: << I'm wondering what's gonna happen with the Buffy/Scott relationship now that Angel's back >> I don't know what will happen but I am all for her not being with him. I felt nothing when she kissed Scott in the couryard. They seem mismatched. I like the actor that plays Scott. I watch him in Poltergist: The Legacy. - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 21:51:57 PDT From: "Boys R Us" Subject: BUFFY: another glowing local review I completely credit my love of Buffy the Vampire Slayer to our local newspaper television reviewer. I would never *ever* have watched this show if it weren't for his continuing glowing reviews. I've even spoken to him personally on the phone about Buffy, (post obssession ), where he mentioned he had spoken with his wife about his concern for Buffy and Angel - how are they ever going to be happy? She thought he was a little off for worrying about them . He makes favorable mention of Buffy again today in his article. Here are highlights from the article by Scott Pierce: (complete article can be found at http://deseretnews.com/tdy/z60ozwc3.htm) The hardest question for a TV critic to answer — at least for yours truly — is, "What's your favorite TV show?" The not-so-simple answer is, I like a lot of TV shows. A whole lot of TV shows. [skip some stuff] Running down this list, something suddenly stunned even me — four of the shows I make a point to see every week (barring some sort of VCR operator error) are "Hyperion Bay," "Buffy the Vampire Slayer," "Felicity" and "Dawson's Creek." And they're all on upstart network the WB. That's as compared to two shows on Fox, one on ABC, one on UPN, one in syndication, one on cable — and none on CBS. There are also four NBC shows on my must-see list, but three of those are sitcoms — meaning 2 1/2 hours of must-see NBC to four hours of must-see WB. Surprised? I certainly was. We're talking about a network that isn't really quite a network yet. A network that only programs 11 hours a week. A network that, a couple of years ago, seemed a less than even bet to survive this long. These four shows are all aimed at young viewers but hold appeal for older viewers. "Hyperion Bay" is a smart continuing drama about twentysomethings. "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" is a surprisingly smart, funny, scary hour. "Felicity" is a charming, smart and engrossing look at a college freshman starting her journey in life. And "Dawson's Creek" is about a bunch of teenagers who are too smart for their own good. But those four are great shows. They're a cut above most of what's out there. They're stylish, distinctive and entertaining. Better still, you don't have to worry about these shows going away anytime soon. Coming into the season, the WB ordered 22 episodes (a full season's worth) of both "Buffy" and "Dawson's." But four must-see shows and one see-if-you-can show on the WB? The WB?!? It boggles the mind. Take if from someone who has seen every series on every network. If you haven't checked out these WB offerings out, do so. BOFFO "BUFFY": Trying to explain "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" to someone who's never seen the show is almost impossible. Yes, it's about a high school girl who runs around slaying vampires. But it's much, much better than it sounds. Tonight's episode (7 p.m., Ch. 30), for example, is fabulous. Not only is someone out there killing people while it's Oz's (Seth Green) time of the month to turn into a werewolf, but there's the sudden reappearance of Angel (David Boreanaz), Buffy's (Sarah Michelle Gellar) vampire boyfriend whom she was forced to send to hell at the end of last season. Told you it would sound stupid. But it's not. It's fun, funny, slightly scary and rather surprising. "Buffy" fans won't want to miss it. As for the rest of you, you really must tune in and see for yourselves what this is all about. ************ Isn't he the *greatest*??? Another buffiatric, hm ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 00:58:31 -0400 From: Watchers@ix.netcom.com Subject: BUFFY: Willow's Lunchbox I usually don't post that much anymore, but I just had to say that I too am the proud owner (for real, not just a list owner) of Willow's Scooby Doo Lunchbox. I couldn't believe it was the same one. I wonder who in the prop department was in charge of finding that one cause I've had that since I was about five years old. I'm 26 now...feeling kinda old - but seeing it was just realy neat! Peace - THE WATCHER - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 22:10:06 -0700 From: Charles Schultz Subject: BUFFY: Xander Betrayal - New Info from Joss From the man himself on the posting board tonight: joss says: (Tue Oct 20 21:42:20 1998 205.188.193.153) Okay, had to jump back to say two things: one, Mimi, that's the best thing Marti and I could ever hear -- we wanted this ep to be true, and stayed on a harsh path for that reason, so thanks for th' perspective. Two, the Xander betrayal issue. It hasn't come up with us, and here's why. Xander made a decision. Like a general going into battle, he had to keep Buffy's fighting spirit strong and he felt telling her the truth would blunt it. And Angel needed to be stopped. It was a tough decision, and an unpopular one, but I'm not sure it wasn't the right one. I'm on the fence, and that's what makes it FUN! So there. Sorry about Greenwalt, he's just friendly. - ---end quote So for those waiting for him to take a beating, just get over it. It's not going to happen (at least not before episode 10). Charles - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 01:16:56 EDT From: MoonCat25@aol.com Subject: Re: BUFFY: Scooby Vamps..... In a message dated 98-10-20 12:13:10 EDT, you write: << I think a 'dream sequence', or an episode with a parallel universe (like some fanfic I know of) would be a cool ep......personally, I would dig on seeing Aly and Nick and ASH in 'game face', as they call it. Wouldn't have to be 'real', but it sure would be fun to see!!! >> What about a parallel universe where Willow is the Slayer and Buffy the friend? MoonCat - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 01:43:34 -0400 (EDT) From: "F.Y.G." Subject: BUFFY: Beasts and Seth info Seth had an interview on the news after Buffy here in LA...he's in an independent film previewing at the American Film Institute in LA I think ?Saturday? As for the episode...a neat twist but its time for Joss to get back to VAMPIRES! F.Y.G./missile http://members.xoom.com/fyg Founder and President of the Buffy Crew http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/7427/ Delta Sigma Phi Sargent at Arms - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 02:29:56 EDT From: TknoPagan@aol.com Subject: Re: BUFFY: Lunch Box yeah it was a scooby doo, i caught that and that what a sly dog...It was neat Aly had her own little doctors case... Jason TknoPagan@aol.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 23:43:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Sonja Marie Subject: BUFFY: Anthony Head on KTLA Thurs I held a IRC chat with Anthony Head tonight with his fan club members and found out that he'll be singing on KTLA Thurs morning. The chat log is in a really rough form (typos and all). Once I get it cleaned up and make additions from my tape recording of the chat (assuming it's clear enough to understand), I'll make it availible to the lists. Sonja Marie - President - Anthony Stewart Head Fan Club (ASHFC) Official Anthony Head WebPage - http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/7728/ Owner of the Anthony S. Head, Buffy-Beta Fic, Jeff Fahey & Paul Wylie Lists Pres. of Giles' Appreciation Society Panters - GASP!- Keeper of Coats & Ties Anthony Stewart Head (Giles-BTVS) About What Fans Sent Him in the Mail: "Fair amount of lingerie, yeah, all of which I tried, none of which fitted" - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 00:01:26 -0700 From: Lisa Rose Subject: BUFFY: Beautiful Beasties (Spoilers for "Beauty & the Beasts") 1. At first the theme of this ep seemed simply another "Teenagers, stand up for yourselves and don't be abused!" akin to "Anne," etc.... But when Buffy was telling Debbi that she had to help stop Pete so he couldn't hurt anyone else, she was probably also talking to herself (reflecting on having let Angelus go at the mall so long ago?) Kinda like how she was really talking about herself when she wouldn't forgive James for killing *his* lover in "IOHEFY"? And maybe even in "Anne" there was another purpose for Ken's abuse, so she might have a taste of what Angel had gone through (time-warped hell)? But did anyone else get a chill at the nearly textbook representation of a battering relationship? (The courses I took in therapy were all coming back to me). After the explosion of anger and violence, there is remorse on the part of the abuser, and *forgiveness* (and self-blame) on the part of the abused. And the cycle repeats and feeds itself over and over. BtVS just took this real-life "monster" phenomenon and made it literal and supernatural, as they always do. 2. By the time Angel burst in to help Buffy, you figure that Pete was asking himself, "Hey, how many supernaturally strong monster friends does this chick have anyway?" It certainly ended his little monopoly on being the school monster pretty quickly. After battling Buffy, Oz, and Angel, maybe Pete thought he'd stumbled into an "X-Men" episode or something (with Oz as Wolverine)? "You guys are supposed to be easy kills, you're not supposed to fight back!" (ala Ken's sentiments from "Anne"). And how cute was it when Oz whimpered like a puppy after he got shot with the tranquilizer? 3. The Angel-fighting-for-Buffy scene may have been somewhat mythic or even formulaic, but it took me six rewinds of it (during commercials of Felicity) to be able to watch the whole thing without crying along with Buffy at the end. Angel's gorgeous torso and power, Buffy's poignant face and tears, and "What do I do now?" expression. Yes, there were some parallels between the Pete/Debbi and Angel/Buffy relationships respectively, but the former was the darker version and the latter was the lighter (imho). Pete attacked people who touched his girlfriend to have sex with her (in his mind), whereas Angel attacked someone who touched his girlfriend to hurt her. And both women comforted both men, almost like mothers, after their men's respective violent outbursts. But Debbi comforted out of a misplaced belief that she really was responsible for Pete's condition whereas Buffy comforted with the sad realization that she did play a part in the torment that Angel had endured (and unlike Debbi, Buffy seemed very much in control of her situation at that moment). The was one of the ol' "tugging at the heartstrings" episodes for me, Lisa - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 03:20:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Antonio Greaney Delgado Subject: BUFFY: Feminists and Xander wearing skaky cothes Well, I am another feminist who shaves. Of course I don't shave my legs or my armpits, just my face. Yes, I'm a male feminist which is neither paradox nor oxymoron nor contradiction. Lisa said: > Well, I guess TPTB have sufficiently denigrated and pigeonholed >the word "feminist" so that women whose success depends upon being liked >by the public don't want to be associated with it any more. . . Amen to that and all the rest. Of course, thank you, too, for bringing up TPTB in the conversation. Because it is they, the editors of People and others, who turned what may have been an off the cuff remark into a "newsworthy" condemnation of feminism. Look: > When Sarah Michelle Gellar thinks of feminism, she thinks of hairy legs. > The star of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" tells USA Weekend that she hates > the term 'feminist.' "It makes you think of women that don't shave their > legs. People magazine rephrased her quote to make it sound more like a personal belief than a general statement. She also doesn't say whether or not she likes feminism or feminists, just not the term "feminist" which many people would agree carries negative associations with it. - --End pedantic gender studies mode-- In other news, my friend pointed out to me that Xander was wearing the same clothes at the morgue that he was wearing when he fell asleep in the library the night before! Kneep! Keeper of Principal Snyder's "tiny person shoes" - -- This address will be gone soon. Send correspondence to my transitional address: pluznk@juno.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 06:36:35 EDT From: Iocaste@aol.com Subject: Re: BUFFY: Beauty and the Beast In a message dated 98-10-20 23:14:02 EDT, you write: << This is the same Marti Noxon who wrote what I consider the low point of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, I Only Have Eyes For You. Perhaps with this abuse story, she was trying to make up for what I saw as a very disturbing message coming out of IOHEFY. >> Oh my God! This is _exactly_ what I was thinking! I reall _detested_ IOHEFY last season -- I thought it was the most dangerous thing I had ever seen, particularly from a show that tends to provide subtle "morals" for teens. IOHEFY made domestic violence seem _romantic_, like some kind of tragic Romeo and Juliet story. And I know that many people complained about it at the time, which may very well have been what spurred Nixon to write B&tB. The problem is, as you pointed out, this episode was _extremely_ heavy-handed. No subtleties at all here, and I would have liked some, because otherwise it's just A Very Special Buffy. Unfortunately, there just wasn't enough time to pack everything in -- because what we really needed was far more info about this "potion" that the guy was taking, and we needed a much more subtle pattern of abuse that wasn't so _obviously_ the stereotypical domestic violence pattern. As much as I enjoyed the finale, as each man revealed his "beastliness" in a great battle for jungle dominance, this story was unfortunately very poorly put together. Buffy works better when it has these kinds of messages, but when you have to search a little bit more to find them. Ann iocaste@aol.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 08:33:36 -0400 (EDT) From: tan3@cornell.edu Subject: Re: BUFFY: Xander Betrayal - Where are you guys? Ok, I have to admit, I'm really surprised. Last night was the episode wherein all men were relegated to the level of beasts. Angel, Pete and Oz were at the literal level, yes, but what about Xander? When I saw him lie down on the table and obviously *prepare* and *intend* to go to sleep, I said to myself, "Oh, the Xander-haters are going to have a field day!" Willow trusted him to watch over her boyfriend, though she obviously wished she could be there herself. If he had fallen asleep accidentally, that would have been forgivable, but this was intentional, disrespectful, and callous of him. So why isn't anyone harping on this betrayal? Also, what do you guys on the list think about the "All men are beasts except for librarians" message? Things I liked and questions: - - "Time's up, rules change" - You go Oz! I love him. :) - - Willow cares so much for Oz that she held herself together to gather the evidence from the body, and only when she was done did she give out. Wonderful woman there. - - Ok, I'm really feeling for Scott here. It seems like he really likes Buffy, and it's going to really hurt him when she eventually leaves him for Angel. I don't think Joss and Co. are going to want to make Buffy intentionally hurt an innocent like that, so is anyone else seeing a drastically shortened lifetime for this guy? This is PURE speculation, but reasonable, no? - - I know the school is clueless (see my sig.), but doesn't anyone wonder how Pete's neck got broken? Anyway, Cheers! Tracey tan3@cornell.edu Keeper of the Cluelessness of the Rest of the School - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 08:56:35 -0400 From: "Allen J. Oh" Subject: BUFFY: Demon dimension/Ken's "Hell" Since I only get the digest version of this list, this topic may have already been addressed. In case it hasn't, though -- I noticed that, in last night's episode, when Buffy and Giles were talking about Angel, Giles remarked that time passes very differently in the demon dimension, and that Angel has probably been subjected to hundreds of years of torment. Buffy then commented that she knew what that was like, or that she was familiar with that, or something to that effect. Question: coincidence that, in Ken's "Hell" (note the quotes), time also passed more rapidly than here -- and apparently at roughly the same speed as in the demon dimension of which Giles spoke? Or, as has been suggested, are Ken's "Hell" and the demon dimension one and the same? Some folks on the list have said, and I agree (or at least did till last night), that Ken said that some people would call his place Hell -- suggesting that it's not the same Hell in which Angel was, until recently, imprisoned. Now I'm not so sure. I was certain Scott would be killed in last night's episode when Jeckyll/Hyde saw him talking to his girlfriend...setting the scene for Buffy and Angel to get back together. I was surprised to see him still living at the end of the episode. Allen - - ------------------------------ Date: From: Subject: [none] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 09:38:12 -0400 From: genevieve@gist.com (Genevieve Faulkner) Subject: BUFFY: ??TPTB?? TPTB -- What does this mean??? I'm a Buffaholic I'm Spike's slave--forever Cordelia: Tact is just not saying true stuff. I'll pass. (KBD) - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 03:48:09 -1000 (HST) From: Anderson Le Subject: Re: BUFFY: ??TPTB?? TPTB: The Powers That Be The head honchos, the big tamale, the wizard behind the curtain... Cheers, Anderson On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, Genevieve Faulkner wrote: > TPTB -- What does this mean??? > > I'm a Buffaholic > I'm Spike's slave--forever > Cordelia: Tact is just not saying true stuff. I'll pass. (KBD) > > > > > > > > - > - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 06:59:17 PDT From: "Erik Rommel Victor THE GATT Gatmaitan" Subject: BUFFY: cool show This show rocks, like my main man Rocky Maivia. And it also rolls, like royce, he he! Last night's episode is the best, like Travis. What a very exciting action-packed show with the best characters and the awesome-mest cast in the whole entire world. Everyone, know your role! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 06:15:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Tanya Marsh Subject: Re: BUFFY: Beauty and the Beast As much as I hate to disagree with my friend Ann, who introduced me to Buffy in the first place and to whom I am alternately eternally grateful/resentful, here goes: Iocaste@aol.com wrote: ^Oh my God! This is _exactly_ what I was thinking! I ^really _detested_ IOHEFY last season. I, on the other hand, _loved_ IOHEFY, and think the whole point of romanticizing domestic violence was reading too much into it. I interpreted the whole point of that episode as forgiveness. I couldn't care less about the poltergeist and his teacher -- as far as I was concerned they were both just vehicles for Buffy (and Giles) coming to terms with Angel. I definitely thought the teen suicide thing at the end was over the top...I would have preferred a "don't kill your significant other" message. But I think Marti needed that whole background story of the dead lovers to get Buffy and Angel to speak words that hadn't and couldn't yet be spoken. And of course the whole forshadowing of Buffy "killing" Angel. Related note. Why does everyone, including Buffy, refer to her stabbing Angel through the gut with a sword as "killing" him? We all know, and she certainly knows, that you can't kill vampires that way. Why doesn't she understand that she _just_ sent him to hell? Plus, she never gave Giles that bit of info about the mode of Angel's death. For all he knows, she cut off his head, thus making the "why can't Angel come back from the dead" question a little more difficult. Also, Iocaste@aol.com wrote: ^The problem is, as you pointed out, this episode was ^_extremely_ heavy-handed. No subtleties at all here, ^and I would have liked some, because otherwise it's ^just A Very Special Buffy. Okay, I really loved the Call of the Wild intro and conclusion, although I am a bit worried that not everyone immediately got the reference. What are they teaching in high school English these days??? Loved Oz/wolf's reaction to the rabbits. Anyway, how much subtlety can we really expect? Oz and Angel _are_ monsters, at least in their worse moments. Again, I don't think the point of this episode had anything to do with the Mr.Hyde and his abused girlfriend characters. They were once again vehicles for the problems inherent in the Oz/Willow and Buffy/Angel relationships. The difference is that Oz and Angel didn't ask to become monsters, to reveal their inner beasts. They were changed against their wills. But still, when these boys are bad, there is reasoning with them. One problem I had with this episode, though, and maybe I just need to watch it again. I thought Buffy's reaction to Angel when he dropped to his knees and hugged her just wasn't realistic. True, she was in a room surrounded by two dead bodies and her back from the dead boyfriend who only immediately stopped acting like a raving animal, but still! Angel has just spent two centuries in hell, Buffy put him there, you would think that her first reaction would have been to throw her arms around him and comfort him! Even if she eventually decides that this relationship just can't work (which she obviously must, hence the spinoff) her _instinct_ has to be to compassion. Same point with regards to the Buffy watching Angel sleep scene. Someone I love is tortured by nightmares, I would want to put his head on my lap and stroke his hair -- try to make the bad images disappear. Problem was I never even saw Buffy fighting that temptation! Maybe she is struggling with the abused girlfriend parallel -- trying to figure out whether she is making excuses for Angel or it really wasn't his fault. But come on. Hug the guy. Finally (really, finally) -- I wonder if one of Buffy's big struggles this season will be over getting close to Angel and running the risk of him losing his soul again. Maybe this is why Angel had to spend all that time in hell -- that'll be a little hard to push out of one's mind, no matter what earthly pleasures may come. I just don't look forward to 18 episodes of Angel and Buffy denying themselves and all of us feeling the pain. Work it out, try to be happy, and then make the mature decision that it just isn't to be so that Angel can go to LA and do whatever Angels do... Tanya _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? 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