From: owner-buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com (buffy-digest) To: buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: buffy-digest V2 #618 Reply-To: buffy@lists.xmission.com Sender: owner-buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-buffy-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk buffy-digest Friday, December 18 1998 Volume 02 : Number 618 In this issue: BUFFY: Religion in Buffyverse BUFFY: Buffy Crosses Re: BUFFY: Re: Golden Globes Re: BUFFY: Buffy Crosses BUFFY: E.Weekly kicks BUTT BUFFY: RE: buffy-digest V2 #617 Re: BUFFY: Amends Comment BUFFY: xmas BUFFY: Re: buffy-digest V2 #617 BUFFY: ET BUFFY: funny haha BUFFY: Re: Alternate Buffy a Zombie (The Wish commentary) BUFFY: Expectations Re: BUFFY: Christian/religious symbols; Buffy's Christianity Re: BUFFY: Amends and "The First" Re: BUFFY: xmas Re: BUFFY: My Giles Attitude Problem.... Re: BUFFY: My Giles Attitude Problem.... Re: BUFFY: Christian/religious symbols; Buffy's Christianity Re: BUFFY: Cdn. spoilers for "Amends" Re: BUFFY: Christian/religious symbols; Buffy's Christianity Re: BUFFY: Joss Whedon - OT BUFFY: EW Poll Re: BUFFY: Expectations See the end of the digest for information on subscribing to the buffy or buffy-digest mailing lists and on how to retrieve back issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 15:37:27 -0500 From: genevieve@gist.com (Genevieve Faulkner) Subject: BUFFY: Religion in Buffyverse I feel like we are forgetting that this is a TV show. Joss has complete control and just like Angel age being confusing because he "sucks at math", we can not compare Buffy religion to reality. As has been mentioned from the pilot, in Buffyverse demons were here first. Now, I am pretty sure no matter what you believe, you don't believe that. Whether you think everything started as a paradise, or took thousands of years to develop, demons do not play a big part. Starting from day one, Joss has changed history. He creates what he wants, and answers to no one. If he is Atheist (why would he lie?) it makes since that he will continue to make stuff up, and then muddle it because he is not a theologian. I am sorry to preach, but I have strong spiritual beliefs, and I have learned not to apply them to the Buffyverse. Crosses and holy water burn because Joss says so. On a side note, I am originally from Texas and although I knew two brothers that were Jewish, it was rarely talked about and usually brought up as a side note. So I can understand why it is not a big deal to Willow's friends. Not that it is not important, but some people just do not make a point of "being" Jewish. Does this make sense? Stepping down from my stage now....(My heavy views require more than a soapbox:) Genevieve I'm a Buffaholic, I'm a Cordy Girl, "Tact is just not saying true stuff. I'll pass."(KBD)-- My new motto to live by. Love ya, Cordelia! Guardian of Cordelia's Homecoming disapointment, and heartbreak (two defining moments in Cordy's life) I'm Spike's slave--and proud of it! I'm a GASPer, keeper of Giles' "Burt Reynolds"-like status - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:10:44 -0500 From: "Diana Renee' Bouiver" Subject: BUFFY: Buffy Crosses Crosses are a symbol of light or good, according to Buffy during the first two hour movie. (Welcome to Hellmouth?) She does not use it as a symbol of anyone religion or the other. The early Pagans used the sign of the fish as one of their symbols for a good catch... I do not believe Buffy to Christian, Jewish, a Witch or any other religion. This is just my opinion. - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:19:47 EST From: Coolkarma@aol.com Subject: Re: BUFFY: Re: Golden Globes > Actually, the nominating committee for the Golden Globes has a reputation > of being somewhat more ballsy than the committees from other award > shows. They tend to root for the underdog then why couldn't they give a nomination to buffy the vampire slayer? i wouldn't call the felicity nomination ballsy. i'd call it safe and predictable. buffy is the show that put the wb on the map, but it doesn't get anywhere near the attention and respect the other shows get. gary - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:28:54 EST From: Keroppi625@aol.com Subject: Re: BUFFY: Buffy Crosses <> I think Buffy is Christian because she celebrates Christmas in "Amends" lindz - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:55:11 -0500 (EST) From: "F.Y.G." Subject: BUFFY: E.Weekly kicks BUTT Got the newsest issue with best and worst of 98 and there is a pic of Sarah on the top left of the cover. But lets not stop there. Flip the cover over and you see all the covers for the year with Sarahs on the left. p.22-24 The 3rd best entertainers of the year are the WB girls, Sarah being the only Buffy one (rest are charmed 3,Dawsons 2, Felicity-guess, and Jessica from 7th heaven). p/124-125 Buffy rated #1 TV program of the year with a cartoon on 125. p.130 Buffy goes to 3rd on the second opinion F.Y.G./missile http://members.xoom.com/fyg Founder and President of the Buffy Crew http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/7427/ Delta Sigma Phi Sargent at Arms - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:27:33 -0800 From: "Okoniewski, Deborah" Subject: BUFFY: RE: buffy-digest V2 #617 > A conclusion of my own, the pres. who was in charge of "Babe II" was gone > within a week of its release. I wonder how long the guy responsible for > Felicity has got left. > > F.Y.G./missile > Just a comment here, FYG, as one who works at said studio, there is waaaaaay more involved than the general public knows. The hierarchy at major studios is a strange and complicated animal, one that is extremely difficult to figure out at times. The person of whom you are speaking, Casey Silver, was not the President in Charge of "Babe: Pig in the City". You can go to the Universal Studios Web Site and read all about it, if you are interested. I've worked at all the major studios, except Disney, over the past 16 years, and believe me, it's been one hell of a ride. No other business operates quite the same way as the entertainment business. Where else could you get fired from a job and walk away with $40 MILLION? I'm sorry Buffy doesn't get recognition by the Television Academy or the Golden Globes, but I can't say I am surprised. The WB really pushed Felicity and it paid off. Don't you remember all the commercials that ran during Buffy for this show? Did we see this kind of promotion for Buffy on the other WB shows? I sure don't remember seeing any. deborah - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:19:53 -0600 From: deathsfury@juno.com (DEATHS FURY) Subject: Re: BUFFY: Amends Comment The one scene that made this episode rise above average is the Giles-Angel scene. The staging of screen shots, plus acting on Tony's part was spectacular. I had been musing on how they would portray the first encounter of Giles-Angel since their last meeting was a tortuous one (pun intended). It really demonstrated how fine an actor Anthony Head is among today's TV stars. The victim coming face to face with their torturer is one which is very difficult to accurately write/act and this scene worked for me. It adeptly portrayed/hinted at all the emotions that the victim feels when facing the person who tortured them, not only physically but worse mentally. Tony portrayed not only the fear Giles feels but also the rage he feels at the sight of Angel. Remember that Giles had been helpless before Angel the last time they saw each other. Giles' and Angel's relationship has now risen to one of the most complex ones possible and is one of the reason's that I watch BtVS. The mental torture that Angelus/Angel put Giles through while physically torturing him must have been spectacular, I imagine, from what we were allowed to see about Angelus' past. It is the mental torture and the pleasure Angelus derived from it, which probably haunts Giles' nightmares, i.e. Angel's voice and face. Human psyche is delicate and torture's purpose is to break the person from within as well as from without. (Beside getting info, I mean) The writers are clearly prepping us for Angel's eventual departure for the good of everyone. Apart from this scene I think the episode was good for a Christmas ep. I am glad that we got our first glimpse/mention of the other side of the spectrum. We know that there are vampires,demons, witches, and other powers of evil. It was about time the opposing side (besides Buffy & Gang) showed their hand. If you have the First Evil, there must be a First Good or whatever you want to call it which saved Angel's life at the end (Buffy herself said it-- that did he need s.t. more to convince him that he was meant to stay alive besides her telling him it was so and then it began to snow). I also believe that it was the First Good which released Angelus from the other Dimension because of the way he returned. It was buffy's love symbolized by the ring which released him etc. People find it easier to believe in Evil than in Good, in themselves and in others. Peace. J.B. Happy Holidays! ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:30:06 -0800 From: alanazar@jasper.uor.edu Subject: BUFFY: xmas > I think Buffy is Christian because she celebrates Christmas in "Amends" > I think that in America, Christmas is about as religious as Easter.... not very, for most people. Santa and the Bunny kind of overrun the religious aspect. Not for everyone-- but for example, I have relatives whose church is completely opposed to celebrating Christmas as a religious holiday- but embrace the family and gift giving/christmas tree aspect. just a thought - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 17:49:27 -0500 (EST) From: "Jessica Bennett (Levy Library)" Subject: BUFFY: Re: buffy-digest V2 #617 > >If there was no sunlight when it was snowing, wouldn't the other vampires > >have been out? I mean if Angel could be out that meant that all of the > >other vampires could have been too Everyone had pretty much skipped town according to bartender Willy. The only evil things left hanging around were the three and Angel. > >I wonder if vampires have an aversion to fish symbols: the/a Fish > >is the Early Christian Icon for Christianity/Christ > > Or, for that matter, other Christian symbols. In particular, > I'm thinking about icons (as venerated in the Eastern Orthodox > tradition). Seems to me that icons would be even MORE powerful > than crosses against vampires -- while crosses symbolize > Christianity, icons are typically blessed by a priest and are > holy objects. The Watchers Guide claims that in Joss Whedon's vampire universe, any religious symbol strikes fear in a vampire's heart, but crosses do so more than others. It doesn't explain why. > I've also wondered whether vampires would be affected by > other religious symbols, such as the Magen David. The > vampire legend has existed in many cultures, including > non-Christian ones. When Willow had to de-invite Angel from her home in Passion, I kinda wondered why she couldn't put a meshuga up on her window frame instead of a cross.... > > Ryan Reid wrote: > >We didn't really see much to do with ACTUAL Christmas, you know? > >However, BUFFY'S RELIGION FINALLY REVEALED!! She's a > >Christian! woo hoo!! > > It didn't really seem like much of a revelation to me -- > Buffy's wearing a cross around her neck seemed pretty telling > to me. Observing Christmas and having a cross around one's neck to preven vamps from biting it hardly make one a christian. Does Buffy go to church? No. Does she ever pray out loud on the show? No. Joss is an atheist, thus, most of his characters are, too. There isn't even room for an idea of God in the buffy-verse. Before there were people, demons roamed the earth. There seem to be some benign demons who decided to make way for people, who made possible a slayer, and who may have made it snow. Or perhaps there's, as was suggested at one point on this list, a "first good," somewhat like the force as opposed to the dark side of the force. Personally, I think that Joss giving credence to old legends regarding the strength of religious iconography was a big cop out, unless he was planning to make a big, laughable, hypocritical statement about Christianity being the only true religion. It's one of the few things about the show that really bugs me. That and the co-dependency and violence inherent in the show's primary romantic coupling. > While I really didn't wanna get into this, and I'm not sure whether or not > I should, it more or less has something to do with the theory that the > first Vampire was Caine, as in He who slain Abel. He was cursed by God, > because he refused to repent, and will forever walk the earth, never to see > the light of day and eternally feed from the blood, as it was the blood > which caused him to be cursed.=20 Yeah, but that story way predates Christianity. It's a Jewish fable that pretty much predates all the religious iconography we are familiar with today. Whateva, jessie - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 17:52:52 EST From: BuFFySMG7@aol.com Subject: BUFFY: ET A little clip from Cruel Intentions was just on Entertainment tonight about halfway through. I didnt catch the whole thing because I just saw sarah while flipping through channels. - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 15:26:48 -0800 From: alanazar@jasper.uor.edu Subject: BUFFY: funny haha Just thought I'd say that my favorite scene from Amends was when Buffy entered the bar and the bartender says, loudly, and to his vamp customers....paraphrase..... " oh look, its the SLAYER" and everyone leaves. Loved it. Good to see that only the vamps with big cahones or the threat of death from their leader if they fail in their mission have the "guts" to mess with her! - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 15:46:57 PST From: "Raven Dunn" Subject: BUFFY: Re: Alternate Buffy a Zombie (The Wish commentary) Hey all, I wrote this last week and it just came back to me. But there's a lot of good stuff to think about in it, so I hope you'll forgive the time delay. Raven Here we Go! : >From: fun-ee@juno.com (fun ee) >The scene where Angel gets dusted and his last word is "Buffy" and >Buffy just walks through him as if nothing had happened other than >another vampire dying was the most disturbing thing I found hard to >believe. There is no reason that the alternate Buffy *should* have responded in any other way. Angel was just some vamp who happened to have the information that she needed. She used him, he died, why cry? She was probably planning to off him anyway, after all he was a vamp and she knew nothing about any extenuating circumstances. :) Check your denial-o-meter. >When Angel was in the cell, he told Buffy that he had waited for her >and that she was his destiny. She gives him a blank stare in return. Yeah, exactly. By her own line, "Is this a get-in-my-pants thing? You guys in Sunnydale talk like I'm the second coming." Exactly why should her reaction be any different? Because our reality Buffy is hung up on him/is-was in love with him/ thought he was better than fried demon on a stick? >In fact, this alternate world Buffy seems to be stupid and unfeeling >to the point of being totally unlikeable. THAT'S what the problem >was. I think that the alternate Buffy wasn't stupid, she was driven. Suppose that since the Master succeeded in getting out of his little cave that all of the prophesies came true as well. (Something about the earth being over-run by demons or some such, no?) I think that would result in one busy Slayer. So the world seriously takes a dark turn, and the Slayer would have more to battle than ever. And probably no down time, there wouldn't even be a question of a "normal life". There would simply be no time. By that train of thought it is obvious why Buffy wasn't the girl we know and love. >Evidently, the alternate world Buffy was more like a Kendra -- all >business and no play. No contest. But is that her fault or a case of the Slayer rising to the occasion? >If the alternate world Buffy had the least bit of feeling like the >real world Buffy she would have been more intelligent,caring and open >to the alternate world Giles (remember when she meets him, instead of >looking at him she kept fiddling with his stuff, picking things up). I don't think that her "feeling" has anything to do with her intelligence. In fact I feel the opposite. We often do thinks that are really against our intelligent motivation. It's called following your heart. It's dangerous, it's rewarding, it's deadly, it's the best chance we ever took, it's all of the above. But feeling = intelligence just does not equate in my book. There is, again, no reason she should have gone easy on the alternate Giles. If she had her hands full elsewhere, and dropped everything to take care of his problem, she had a definite right to be demanding of him. (Especially if she precived things as being worse elsewhere...) > if Buffy didn't go to Sunnydale, she might have turned >into the kind of lifeless, uncaring Buffy such as we found in her >alternate world counterpart, Buffy didn't seem lifeless to me, nor uncaring. I think she cared. A lot. But not just for herself or a smaller scope of the reality that she normally deals with in the "real" universe. Her brisk and hard edged exterior, showed how driven she was to accomplish her goals, that of safe guarding humanity. From what she was fighting (worse than Sunnydale?! There was a place with MORE problems??) it appeared to be an uphill battle. There is no way for us to know the full scope of the terrors she was dealing with in that universe, suffice it to say that sometimes it's hard-ass or dead. > the writers never showed a glimpse of the potentially loving, >caring, intelligent Buffy. ummm. Well, that's the beauty of alternate universe stories. Things are *not* what they should be. Buffy in both universes it appears tends to adjust well to the situations that she finds herself in. We don't know what she had to adjust to in that one, but I think we've just seen Buffy as she would be if the situation demanded that she be "all Slayer all the time." >I just wish they had shown us some of that, maybe given us a tiny bit >of Angel/Buffy romance (or at least a moment of intimate >getting-to-know-you conversation) instead of ending it so abruptly >like they did. I'm going to really have to disagree with you there. I am *SO* happy that there was no intimate moments. So happy. But I guess that just comes down to a matter of taste. YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary) (It comes to my mind that this is where fan fic comes in. Once a fiction opens up the "alternate universe" can of worms, there's no going back.) >I think The Wish could have been a two-part episode, instead of >giving into the demands and confines of commercial tv. If wishes were horses... That to me is the joy of Buffy, it always leaves me wanting more. Raven Keeper of Giles' Wet Jeans - I'm a GASPer, Ask me how! Guardian of Faith's twisted ability to return a insult. (ie Scott: Homecomming) "It's good to want things..." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 15:49:18 PST From: "Raven Dunn" Subject: BUFFY: Expectations Hi all, Me again, this one came back with the other, but I think this is still relevent. Have a happy holidays. Raven Responce to: >From: Jeff Rohaly >I just expect more from this show. It has been my experience as a fan girl of long standing that our expectations of something we love often results in how we view what we get in the end. Just as there's nothing like being plesantly surprised, there's nothing worse than being horribly let down. I once let my high expectations ruin my enjoyment of a hobby that I was really devoted to. (And one that changed my life to boot) It's hard to go backward after that. From one who has been there, I wish you the best, and a ferverent shout of "Pull up, pull up!" >I'm used to the "monster-fighting" meaning something, And they can have meaning. Sometimes it's the meanings that *we* find though. All of those "monsters with-out meaning" that you have found severly lacking, I have found a correlation to in real life. Has the monster quality got lower, or your expectations gotten higher? Would the monsters that you like have meaned so much if you hadn't found meaning in them. > and the characters growing as a result of the supernatural >experiences that they go through. I'll grant you, I like this too. But consider that sometimes we do not learn from our experiences, regardless of how much we should. Raven "There are symbols all around us, but it's how we see that will determine whether or not we will see them." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:08:30 -0500 From: TedJMill@mindspring.com Subject: Re: BUFFY: Christian/religious symbols; Buffy's Christianity Allen J. Oh Friday, December 18, 1998 9:54 AM >I wrote: >>Would you get really excited to learn that Buffy was a >>fellow right-handed person (assuming you both are right-handed)? >I'm under the impression that Willow is a lefty. But I would actually >be a little excited to have that confirmed, as a fellow lefty. That's sort of the distinction I was trying to make; I guess I wasn't clear. I'm both left-handed and Jewish, and a minority in the US in both of those. Finding a TV character who is either thus has a certain excitement. But since most most people in the US are right-handed, and most are Christian (at least in terms of celebrating Christmas), finding out a TV character is one of those wouldn't have that excitement. Jessica Bennett : Friday, December 18, 1998 5:53 PM >> I've also wondered whether vampires would be affected by >> other religious symbols, such as the Magen David. I've assumed so; in my Buffy fan fiction, I've had Ms. Calendar repel a vampire with an ankh, and Willow repel a vampire by using a Jewish memorial candle lit for that dead person. >When Willow had to de-invite Angel from her home in Passion, >I kinda wondered why she couldn't put a meshuga up on her >window frame instead of a cross.... Um, that's menorah, not meshuga. Unless you meant Willow should nail a crazy person to her window frame. - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:24:18 -0600 From: "Ryan Reid" Subject: Re: BUFFY: Amends and "The First" << Is she? She has a christmas tree, and she's always worn crosses, but I don't think she's a particularly religious girl.....Does it matter? I don't think so. I think the less religion in Buffy's life, the better. >> Well, since Buffy and her mother were celebrating Christmas, i think it was made pretty obvious she was a Christian. And regarding the "does it matter" comment, yes i think it does!! If anything, Buffy needs more religion in her life. Everyone needs God. Especially buffy, I mean, slayer or not, Buffy still needs God. And I think she ESPECIALLY needs him, to help her get through all the slaying. Ryan Keeper of: Cordelia's yellow backless dress* (Becoming II), flowers from Xander and hospital gown (Lover's Walk). Cordy's Chemistry book. Opening Credits for Season 3. Buffy's acceptance that she "sucks at undercover" (Anne). Joyce's glass she threw in fight with Buffy. Buffy's look to Willow when they find out they are playing dodgeball (The Pack). Webmaster of "The Bronze" Keeper Site http://pouncer.simplenet.com/bronze - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:28:36 -0500 (EST) From: tan3@cornell.edu Subject: Re: BUFFY: xmas On Fri, 18 Dec 1998 alanazar@jasper.uor.edu wrote: > I think that in America, Christmas is about as religious as Easter.... > not very, for most people. Santa and the Bunny kind of overrun the > religious aspect. Not for everyone-- I agree. My boyfriend is very strongly Buddhist, and his father is actually a really highly placed muckity-muck in their temple, but their family has a tree and presents and gets together on the 25th and all. This all kind of leads to a point that I've been thinking about recently. (Soapbox alert! All statements from here on in are to be taken as opinion only. The red zone is for picking up loading and unloading of passengers only. Thank you very much and have a nice day.) People are asking why crosses work against vampires. Why does Garlic work? Why does a stake through the heart kill them, when other means won't (ie, a metal bullet through the brain or something)? Why is sunlight dangerous to them? I think the answers to these questions are all the same: becuase it just IS! We're talking legends and myths here. Why are werewolves sensitive to silver? Somethings are not legend, but are strictly Joss-created, like the vamps exploding into dust, but most things seem to be "because the legends say so". Now, why do the legends say so? I could be because we had rural peoples, in heavily Chrisitianated lands, who were afraid of hte monsters that come with the dark. Therefore, to give themselves peace of mind, they made up ways to combat the things they made up from their fears. What did they know from their only schooling? God will protect his people. What do they have that represents their god? Crosses and they can obtain holy water. The Christian god is a sun god of sorts, so the sun would also be dangerous to these creatures. Other cultures have their own demons (the Chinese mythos is filled with some really nasty, icky, scary ones. Give me Dracula and the like anyday!) but the Dracula-type vamps that were dealing with here come from lands that were Christian, hence the aversion to crosses and holy water. Nuff said from me? Nuff said from me. Tracey tan3@cornell.edu Keeper of the Cluelessness of the Rest of the School - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:34:25 -0600 From: "Ryan Reid" Subject: Re: BUFFY: My Giles Attitude Problem.... regarding Giles: << He has *no-one*. No-one to rely on, no-one to count on, but himself. >> But, before Angelus, he had Jenny. Jenny was the one peer he could talk to and confide in. Who "knew" about Buffy being the slayer. Then Angelus comes along, and kills the one person in his life who he can talk to, I'd say I'd be pretty pissed too!! And if i were Giles i wouldn't have invited angel in. I would have made him talk from outside, because he was very close to going wacko again in this EP, and who knows when he'll finally break. And i have a small question... Can Angel become Angelus WITHOUT the "one moment" ??? Does the "one moment" always have to be sex? Keeper of: Cordelia's yellow backless dress* (Becoming II), flowers from Xander and hospital gown (Lover's Walk). Cordy's Chemistry book. Opening Credits for Season 3. Buffy's acceptance that she "sucks at undercover" (Anne). Joyce's glass she threw in fight with Buffy. Buffy's look to Willow when they find out they are playing dodgeball (The Pack). Webmaster of "The Bronze" Keeper Site http://pouncer.simplenet.com/bronze - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:40:40 EST From: RCapulet04@aol.com Subject: Re: BUFFY: My Giles Attitude Problem.... In a message dated 98-12-18 20:38:21 EST, reid@lebpub.net writes: << And i have a small question... Can Angel become Angelus WITHOUT the "one moment" ??? Does the "one moment" always have to be sex? >> Nope..just true happiness...and it happened to be sex becasue he truly loved buffy and yadda yadda yaa....now if he found true happiness in golfing...he wouldnt golf if he wanted to have a soul and ya know all that other good stuff! Rachel Keeper of Hollow Witch Pez - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:47:49 -0600 From: "Ryan Reid" Subject: Re: BUFFY: Christian/religious symbols; Buffy's Christianity regarding Buffy's "newly revealed" Christianity: <> I always took it that the cross was not only a symbol of her religious faith, but also to protect her. That's why i never thought of her as a definite Christian, because it could be just for protection. Ryan Keeper of: Cordelia's yellow backless dress* (Becoming II), flowers from Xander and hospital gown (Lover's Walk). Cordy's Chemistry book. Opening Credits for Season 3. Buffy's acceptance that she "sucks at undercover" (Anne). Joyce's glass she threw in fight with Buffy. Buffy's look to Willow when they find out they are playing dodgeball (The Pack). Webmaster of "The Bronze" Keeper Site http://pouncer.simplenet.com/bronze - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 21:40:11 EST From: Veleda03@aol.com Subject: Re: BUFFY: Cdn. spoilers for "Amends" spoiler space.. In a message dated 12/16/98 11:21:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, rohaly@iaw.com writes: << Unless I'm missing something, this is also the first time that we've gotten a hint that there's some sort of "First Good" out there also. At least that's the way I interpreted the intervention of the snow at the end of the episode. And I won't consider this some sort of cheaty Christmas ending as long as this is followed up on at some point in the future. >> I agree... definetly something "higher" going on... especially with the marquee sign saying "pray".... I loved it.. Vel - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 00:43:10 -0500 (EST) From: Case Subject: Re: BUFFY: Christian/religious symbols; Buffy's Christianity On Fri, 18 Dec 1998, Jessica Tear wrote > While I really didn't wanna get into this, and I'm not sure whether or not > I should, it more or less has something to do with the theory that the > first Vampire was Caine, as in He who slain Abel. He was cursed by God, > because he refused to repent, and will forever walk the earth, never to see > the light of day and eternally feed from the blood, as it was the blood > which caused him to be cursed. > > Now that I think about it, I really shouldn't have gotten into that. But > anyway... there's my insight on how vampires relate so strongly to > Christianity. > > This is the story created to explain vampires in White wolf's World of Darkness Role playing game series, more specificaly Vampire: the Masquerade. The legend came complelety from the minds of this games designers. --Case - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:29:55 -0800 (PST) From: Little Willow Subject: Re: BUFFY: Joss Whedon - OT Jessica Tear wrote: >Did any of you know Joss Whedon co-wrote the Disney movie Toy Story? Indeed. It also happens to be Alyson Hannigan's (Willow) favorite movie, according to various interviews. To peruse Joss' filmography, come visit: http://members.tripod.com/~Little__Willow/joss.html Little Willow ****************************************************************** My comprehensive BtVS site includes information on how to join the official Alyson Hannigan fan club, We Possess Willow Power (WPWP). http://members.tripod.com/~Little__Willow/index.html - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 21:48:00 -0700 From: David Simpson Subject: BUFFY: EW Poll Who are these guys?? Are the Lone Gunmen voting for Gillian Anderson? Every time that Sarah moves into the #1 position on the Entertainment Weekly Poll, Gillian Anderson has a surge that puts her back into first. It makes you wonder whether there really is something to the X-Files. It sure seems like a conspiracy to me (at least, one against Sarah ending up at #1). Anyway, I would again urge all Buffy fans to take some time and vote for Sarah at http://cgi.pathfinder.com/ew/features/981204/actresspoll/index.html By the way, it does look like EW allows multiple votes in this poll, unlike the TV Guide poll that is also running. David Simpson mailto:simpsond@utah-inter.net Buffy: Look... I know you feel badly about what happened, and I just wanted to say... good. Keep it up. --- Passion (BtVS) - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 00:00:32 -0500 From: Jeff Rohaly Subject: Re: BUFFY: Expectations At 15:49 1998-12-18 PST, Raven Dunn wrote: >And they can have meaning. Sometimes it's the meanings that *we* >find though. All of those "monsters with-out meaning" that you have >found severly lacking, I have found a correlation to in real life. Has >the monster quality got lower, or your expectations gotten higher? Or maybe I just don't have much of a real life to find correlations with. Seriously, it's sort of hard to tell. Unfortunately, it's just not possible to go back with my current level of expectations for this show and watch some of the first-season episodes (such as The Witch) with an open mind; they've gained legend status with me. But I still say that monster-as-metaphor themes have become less pronounced, but maybe that's just because they've run through the list of high school horrors. Which is why I think the college years might provide a whole batch of new monster-as-metaphor ideas. >I'll grant you, I like this too. But consider that sometimes we do >not learn from our experiences, regardless of how much we should. But wouldn't that have made a more interesting ending to The Wish then? Somehow Cordelia *does* remember the alternate universe. Then there would be a couple of ways to go with it (sorry I'm not a professional -- or amateur -- writer). Either going with the thought you gave me: Cordelia actually knows how bad things would be without Buffy to the extent that she knows she would be dead and yet she still doesn't change her attitude and refuses to bow down before the great Buffy God. In other words she doesn't even learn from this most tramautic of experiences and is still able to rattle off the insults. And they could have played it as Cordelia torn between whether she would tell Buffy and the others about her wish and its horrible aftermath. That would have provided some interesting insight into Cordelia's character. Is she comfortable enough with any of them, to let them in on this? As I say, I'm not a writer but my point is that the members of the Buffy creative team are, and I would have preferred them to go the extra mile on this one and come up with something interesting rather than just wiping away the 45-minute alternate universe experience. I know that many people have pointed out that The Wish was supposed to be a gift to the fans, but I really think that "gifts" of this type are best left to the Buffy novels or comic books. Back to your theme of expectations. Now I admit that I didn't like The Wish partially because it didn't fit my expectations of what a Buffy episode is supposed to be. And I know that some of the better Buffy moments are when we get what we just don't expect. What looked like a very un-Whedonlike sappy ending to When She Was Bad suddenly erased by the Annointed One's "I hate that girl" comment. Or the strange twist on "A Christmas Carol" that Amends brought us with demons haunting Angel and then some sort of intervention by the snow at the end. And there are many others. So I guess the argument is that The Wish ending with no one learning anything from the experience is supposed to be great because we just don't expect that degree of non-character-development from a Buffy episode. It's an interesting argument, but the difference that I see is that those other instances of unexpectedness were clever or meaningful (I'm assuming that whoever or whatever intervened with the snow will be followed up on), whereas I just don't see wiping out the alternate universe as particularly clever. Jeff Rohaly rohaly@iaw.com http://www.iaw.on.ca/~rohaly/tvschedule/tvmain.html - - ------------------------------ End of buffy-digest V2 #618 *************************** To subscribe to buffy or buffy-digest, send the command subscribe buffy-digest or subscribe buffy to majordomo@xmission.com. 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