From: owner-canslim-digest@lists.xmission.com (canslim-digest) To: canslim-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: canslim-digest V2 #3447 Reply-To: canslim Sender: owner-canslim-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-canslim-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-No-Archive: yes canslim-digest Friday, July 25 2003 Volume 02 : Number 3447 In this issue: Re: [CANSLIM] Another mystery plunge Re: [CANSLIM] Another mystery plunge Re: [CANSLIM] Another mystery plunge Re: [CANSLIM] Another mystery plunge Re: [CANSLIM] OSTE Another mystery plunge Re: [CANSLIM] Another mystery plunge RE: [CANSLIM] Another mystery plunge ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 10:37:56 -0700 From: "DMC197807" Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Another mystery plunge Pritish, No offense taken. I have no financial stake in any of these services. TC2K is a data service with free software. The data I purchase (about $20/month) I use not only to feed my TC2K monster, but my Metastock and AmiBroker as well. I could use the data in other ways, too, but time becomes an issue. So the TC2K, with rather astounding, and astoundingly easy, programmability, costs me $240 per year. Let's remember what we're trying to do here: find a stock, one stock, that is the most likely to perform, and find that one stock on a frequency that matches our investment/speculation goals. I will hold a stock 1 day to 3 months (or longer) for performance, so I'm happy if I can find the one stock out of 8,000 candidates once a week or so. I'm also happy to look at the charts of 40 stocks a day (TC2K is really pretty marvelous in its speed and programmability) to do so. It's quite relaxing, rather like playing cards. I also have it programmed for MA crossovers, bullish and bearish moneystream indications, volume surges, and high beta stocks showing interesting price to moving average movements. As for programming the TC2K for canslim, I did it in about 5 minutes--it was pretty easy. Does it match the CET thing? I don't know, CET is proprietary (I guess mine is too!). But it does spit out 5-10 canslim candidates daily. After that, I apply various other filters and then look at the charts. And I'm not criticizing breakoutwatch.com or other programs. What really brought this up was Hong's statement that OSTE's TA was "great" based on a blackbox rating. When you look at the daily chart, however, paying close attention to price action and volume, and other indicators, it seemed clear that the TA was at least questionable. In a feverishly bullish market, yes, it might continue higher. With the VIX spiking below 20, SPX COTs skewed completely against the market, bull/bear at extremely bearish positions, and put/call reminding us of May 02, is this the time to be going long on any stock. DMC - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pritish Shah" To: ; Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 9:56 AM Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Another mystery plunge DMC, Please do not consider what I say as criticism. With TC2K, you also have to purchase the subscription. Once you do that, you have to do the programming in it with the information that it gives. If such a program exists, then great. If not, then you have to do it yourself. Also with TC2K, do you have to have the software running to get the alerts? I am one of the subscribers of breakoutwatch.com and I find it convenient that I can get the alerts anywhere via email. I look at Total Cost of Ownership. If I were to spend five weeks programming and perfecting TC2K, then I would have spent 5 wks * 40 hrs/wk * $40/hr or $8000 +$300/yr. In contrast, my Total Cost of Ownership for breakoutwatch.com to be effective is $900/yr. No indicators are infallible. This is an "odds" game. What are the odds of you succeeding? If you can improve the odds above 50%, you are successful. If you improve the odds to 60%, it is good. If a tool helps you improve the odds to 80%, it is great and that is what any indicator is about. For some TC2K makes sense. For others breakoutwatch.com makes sense. Pritish >>> dmc197807@comcast.net 7/25/2003 12:30:15 PM >>> Hong, I'm not familiar with breakoutwatch.com's service (although I did just visit their site). It looks pretty pricey for something you can probably program pretty well with TC2K and a subscription to IBD. $900 per year for the "platinum" service? In general I don't think black boxes or canned trading systems work. What works is careful screening, careful analysis, disciplined trading and disciplined money and position management. Of these four, the most important are the latter two. Academics (business schools) like to point out that no TA system has been successfully backtested to perform over lengthy periods of time. True enough, because it is impossible to put in enough general market and proof of trend indicators to reach a "scientific answer." Further proof of failure of black box systems was the LTCM debacle. Also, as Steve Nison likes to point out in analyzing candlesticks, unless you can define the trend, you don't have a candlestick. The big question here, the first question, is what is the condition of the market. Finally, as for the CET thing on OSTE, with a rating of 6.8 out of 7.0 and a big plunge, what does that tell you about the infallibility of their rating system? DMC - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hong Hsu" To: Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 9:12 AM Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Another mystery plunge > DMC, > > For OSTE, the total TA score (CET) from breakoutwatch.com is 6.8 > out of 7. With that score I will tend to believe it has solid TA. Does > it? Maybe Katherine could share her insight. > > -Hong > > > > - > -To subscribe/unsubscribe, email "majordomo@xmission.com" > -In the email body, write "subscribe canslim" or > -"unsubscribe canslim". Do not use quotes in your email. - - - -To subscribe/unsubscribe, email "majordomo@xmission.com" - -In the email body, write "subscribe canslim" or - -"unsubscribe canslim". Do not use quotes in your email. - - - -To subscribe/unsubscribe, email "majordomo@xmission.com" - -In the email body, write "subscribe canslim" or - -"unsubscribe canslim". Do not use quotes in your email. - - - -To subscribe/unsubscribe, email "majordomo@xmission.com" - -In the email body, write "subscribe canslim" or - -"unsubscribe canslim". Do not use quotes in your email. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 11:25:50 -0600 From: "Rolf Hertenstein" Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Another mystery plunge For the record, TC2000 is $29.75/month for the data. It is a neat charting tool. Rolf - ----- Original Message ----- From: "DMC197807" > No offense taken. I have no financial stake in any of these services. TC2K > is a data service with free software. The data I purchase (about $20/month) - - - -To subscribe/unsubscribe, email "majordomo@xmission.com" - -In the email body, write "subscribe canslim" or - -"unsubscribe canslim". Do not use quotes in your email. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 10:49:34 -0700 From: "DMC197807" Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Another mystery plunge Rolf, Actually, I paid $476 for 24 months, or $19.83/month. Charts ARE neat, but the scanning and filtering functions are, as I said, astoundingly simple. Regards, DMC - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rolf Hertenstein" To: Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 10:25 AM Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Another mystery plunge > For the record, TC2000 is $29.75/month for the data. It is a neat charting > tool. > > Rolf > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "DMC197807" > > > No offense taken. I have no financial stake in any of these services. > TC2K > > is a data service with free software. The data I purchase (about > $20/month) > > > > - > -To subscribe/unsubscribe, email "majordomo@xmission.com" > -In the email body, write "subscribe canslim" or > -"unsubscribe canslim". Do not use quotes in your email. - - - -To subscribe/unsubscribe, email "majordomo@xmission.com" - -In the email body, write "subscribe canslim" or - -"unsubscribe canslim". Do not use quotes in your email. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:39:17 -0500 From: "Gene Ricci" Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Another mystery plunge This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_03EB_01C352B2.24BC6A90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Katherine, many thanks for the links to the explanation of the BOW = terminology. Using terms different than the IBD language is hard on = those that don't subscribe. In fact, getting agreement on the meaning = of IBD terminology is a chore in itself. I hope that this user group = doesn't stray far from the WON concepts/terminology that took me quite = some to learn and gain a minimal working knowledge of..... If my interpretation of the BOW terminology is correct, CET does not = stand for TA but rather a minimum set of objective technical criteria = that is part of your service. I couldn't find a matrix showing how your = definitions match IBD's definitions. Can I assume that your numbers for the following match IBDs? 1. RS 2. Industry Rank prior to the secondary sort 3. Up/Down Ratio BTW, the new design of your site looks to be user friendly! regards, Gene ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Katherine Malm=20 To: canslim@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 11:36 AM Subject: RE: [CANSLIM] Another mystery plunge Gene, Please see the help file on our CE scores at: http://www.breakoutwatch.com/canslim/CE_methodology.htm This file is available by clicking the "Help" button on the Canslim = Evaluator, which we make available to the CANSLIM list members who wish = to use it http://www.breakoutwatch.com/canslim/ On CET specifically (from the help file, emphasis added), "In How to Make Money in Stocks, O'Neil describes the preferred = technical condition of a stock at the time of a breakout, but does not = provide a more general description of a "technically healthy" stock. As = the goal of the CET is to provide some means of determining the = technical health of a stock whether or not it is setting up for a = breakout, we assign a score based on objective measurements of the = stock's price/volume action over the intermediate to long term. Scores = do not take into account very near term action of the stock such as a = recent breakdown, reversal, a broken short-term trend etc. " Katherine -----Original Message----- From: owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com = [mailto:owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Gene Ricci Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 10:21 AM To: canslim@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Another mystery plunge Hong, can you translate CET terminology into IBD jargon?=20 Thanks, Gene ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Hong Hsu=20 To: canslim@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 11:12 AM Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Another mystery plunge DMC, For OSTE, the total TA score (CET) from breakoutwatch.com is = 6.8=20 out of 7. With that score I will tend to believe it has solid TA. = Does=20 it? Maybe Katherine could share her insight. -Hong - -To subscribe/unsubscribe, email "majordomo@xmission.com" -In the email body, write "subscribe canslim" or -"unsubscribe canslim". Do not use quotes in your email. - ------=_NextPart_000_03EB_01C352B2.24BC6A90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Katherine, many thanks for the links = to the=20 explanation of the BOW terminology. Using terms different than the IBD = language=20 is hard on those that don't subscribe.  In fact, getting agreement = on the=20 meaning of IBD terminology is a chore in itself. I hope that this = user=20 group doesn't stray far from the WON concepts/terminology that = took me quite some to learn and gain a minimal working = knowledge=20 of.....
 
If my interpretation of the BOW = terminology is=20 correct, CET does not stand for TA but rather a minimum set of objective = technical criteria that is part of your service. I couldn't find a = matrix=20 showing how your definitions match IBD's = definitions.
 
Can I assume that your = numbers for the=20 following match IBDs?
1. RS
2. Industry Rank prior to the = secondary=20 sort
3. Up/Down Ratio
 
BTW, the new design of your site looks = to be=20 user friendly!
 
regards,
Gene
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Katherine=20 Malm
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 = 11:36=20 AM
Subject: RE: [CANSLIM] Another = mystery=20 plunge

Gene,
 
Please see the help file on our = CE scores=20 at:
http://w= ww.breakoutwatch.com/canslim/CE_methodology.htm
 
This file is available by = clicking the=20 "Help" button on the Canslim Evaluator, which we make available to the = CANSLIM=20 list members who wish to use it
http://www.breakoutwatch.c= om/canslim/
 
On CET specifically (from the = help file,=20 emphasis added),
 
"In How to Make Money in = Stocks,=20 O=92Neil describes the preferred technical condition of a stock at = the time=20 of a breakout, but does not provide a more general description of a=20 =93technically healthy=94 stock. As the goal of the CET is to provide = some means=20 of determining the technical health of a stock whether or not it is = setting up=20 for a breakout, we assign a score based on objective measurements of = the=20 stock=92s price/volume action over the intermediate to long term.=20 Scores do not take into account very near term action of = the stock=20 such as a recent breakdown, reversal, a broken short-term trend=20 etc. "
 
Katherine
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com=20 [mailto:owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Gene=20 Ricci
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 10:21 AM
To:=20 canslim@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Another = mystery=20 plunge

Hong, can you translate CET = terminology into=20 IBD jargon?
 
Thanks,
Gene
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Hong Hsu
To: canslim@lists.xmission.com= =20
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 = 11:12=20 AM
Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] = Another=20 mystery plunge

     = DMC,

    For=20 OSTE, the total TA score  (CET) from breakoutwatch.com is 6.8 =
out=20 of 7.  With that score I will tend to believe it has solid = TA. =20 Does
it?   Maybe Katherine could share her=20 insight.

    -Hong



-
-To=20 subscribe/unsubscribe, email "majordomo@xmission.com"
-In= =20 the email body, write "subscribe canslim" or
-"unsubscribe=20 canslim".  Do not use quotes in your=20 email.
- ------=_NextPart_000_03EB_01C352B2.24BC6A90-- - - - -To subscribe/unsubscribe, email "majordomo@xmission.com" - -In the email body, write "subscribe canslim" or - -"unsubscribe canslim". Do not use quotes in your email. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 15:15:49 -0400 From: Hong Hsu Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] OSTE Another mystery plunge - --------------060105070909050601020104 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Katherine, That remind me to think the plunging reason beyond TA and fundies. I suspect ownership number of floating in yahoo.com or other site is not correct. Take an example, the AKSY also plunged 14% today, neither because of TA, not fundies. Look at the daily chart of the AKSY and evaluation number from breakoutwatch.com, you will know what I mean. It returns out a guy, Scott Sacane, holds 20 million shares of 27 million floating! Once it exploded, others were getting nerves. and selloff started.... I guess none of softwre or service can tell that, not TC2000. But breakoutwatch.com only shows 115 institutions hold about a half of floating. I wonder which source the breakoutwatch.com got insiders and ownership numbers. Have a nice weekend, - -Hong Katherine Malm wrote: > Hi Hong, > > I'll add another item to your list. That is, OSTE has a history of > trading in volatile swings. Take a look at a weekly price chart and > you'll see what I mean. While this doesn't "explain" the action, it > does give it greater context. > > Katherine > - --------------060105070909050601020104 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit    Thanks Katherine,

   That remind me to think the plunging reason beyond TA and fundies.  I suspect ownership number of floating in yahoo.com or other site is not correct.   Take an example, the AKSY also plunged 14% today, neither because of TA,  not fundies.  Look at the daily chart of the AKSY and evaluation number from breakoutwatch.com, you will know what I mean.  

It returns out a guy, Scott Sacane, holds 20 million shares of 27 million floating!   Once it exploded, others were getting nerves. and selloff started....  I guess none of softwre or service can tell that, not TC2000.  But breakoutwatch.com only shows 115 institutions hold about a half of floating.   

I wonder which source the breakoutwatch.com got insiders and ownership numbers. Have a nice weekend,
- -Hong


Katherine Malm wrote:
Hi Hong,
 
I'll add another item to your list. That is, OSTE has a history of trading in volatile swings. Take a look at a weekly price chart and you'll see what I mean. While this doesn't "explain" the action, it does give it greater context.
 
Katherine

- --------------060105070909050601020104-- - - - -To subscribe/unsubscribe, email "majordomo@xmission.com" - -In the email body, write "subscribe canslim" or - -"unsubscribe canslim". Do not use quotes in your email. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 12:27:42 -0700 From: "DMC197807" Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Another mystery plunge Katherine, Thank you for your response. As I noted, I know nothing about the breakout site except what one visit to it could tell me, and I'm not here to tell people what they should/should not pay for. For some people who are out and about getting a cell phone message may be key, for others not. It may be, after a few more years of development myself that I will find the breakout site to be just the ticket. I put off paying for data for several years and traded almost completely off Stockcharts.com's scans and charts until early this year. By a blackbox, I was simply referring (as I noted in a later note to Pritish) a blackbox type of technical rating for a stock, in this case OSTE: 6.8 out of 7.0. Clearly a good rating, perhaps one of the best; better than a 6.4, much better than a 5.7, one supposes. An investor who was over relying on a system which rated a stock might tend to overlook other, more important elements in protecting her capital. (Another investor asked me recently what I thought of RRI, since it had a target price of $5. Who produced the target price, I asked. Zack's, was the answer. To tell the truth, I was surprised that anyone paid any attention to Zack's numbers for anything at all. I've traded RRI several times in the last 9 months, never made less than 50%, and made up to 150% on the positions, but none of them had to do with a formula target price. The charts indicated to careful students that the sellers were done, and that no one remained except buyers and sideliners. That, to me, is the best technical indication there can be (although I realize it's afield from the CANSLIM approach). For something like OSTE, even putting aside the condition of the markets, its technicals were waving flags. It seemed clear that the buyers were weakening, and that there were many openings for sellers. That was my sole point.) One ignores at one's peril the vitally important M of CANSLIM. The market. The truth is, the acronym should be MILSCAN, and put the MARKET first, since the stay in cash/take a position is clearly the most important digitalized decision (0/1) that an investor can make. Btw, my annual cost for IBD and TC2K is only about $410 (IBD is 170 and TC2K is $238). Good luck to you, DMC - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Katherine Malm" To: Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 10:06 AM Subject: RE: [CANSLIM] Another mystery plunge > Hi DMC, > > While I fully understand that not all services and/or software packages are > for everyone, I believe that you have not accurately represented > BreakoutWatch when you suggest that it is a black box. In fact, the CE > scores are designed specifically to be transparent, something that is not > done with IBD's proprietary rankings such as SMR/EPS/AD/Timeliness, etc. > Stocks are not selected for inclusion on a watchlist based on CE scores, > instead this is based only on the price pattern of the stock. > > I agree with you that TA systems cannot be fully tested, but that would hold > for the entire CANSLIM arsenal of intermediate term patterns and therefore > would assume that one should not or cannot trade these patterns at all, > whether one uses TC2000, metastock or any other technical analysis program. > A subscription to a combination of DGO/IBD/TC2000 would run you annually > $1000 for the full DGO package + $300 for IBD + $350 TC2000 (not sure of > exact number). In the end, trading is about choices and services run the > full spectrum from the most generalized TA application plus fundamental > research (for full-bore analysis and an all-things-possible approach) to the > opposite end of the spectrum which includes stock picking services that hand > feed the user on what and when to buy and sell (for a highly specific > approach to a highly specific trading methodology). BreakoutWatch is at > neither end of this extreme spectrum. Each service has their place, each has > their tradeoffs, each has their strengths/weaknesses and each fits a > different sytle of user. That's why there are so many choices at each end > and throughout the entire spectrum. > > Please see my separate posting with links to the CE score help file which > addresses your specific comment on the CET. > > Katherine > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of DMC197807 > Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 10:30 AM > To: canslim@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Another mystery plunge > > > Hong, > > I'm not familiar with breakoutwatch.com's service (although I did just visit > their site). It looks pretty pricey for something you can probably program > pretty well with TC2K and a subscription to IBD. $900 per year for the > "platinum" service? > > In general I don't think black boxes or canned trading systems work. What > works is careful screening, careful analysis, disciplined trading and > disciplined money and position management. Of these four, the most > important are the latter two. > > Academics (business schools) like to point out that no TA system has been > successfully backtested to perform over lengthy periods of time. True > enough, because it is impossible to put in enough general market and proof > of trend indicators to reach a "scientific answer." Further proof of > failure of black box systems was the LTCM debacle. Also, as Steve Nison > likes to point out in analyzing candlesticks, unless you can define the > trend, you don't have a candlestick. > > The big question here, the first question, is what is the condition of the > market. > > Finally, as for the CET thing on OSTE, with a rating of 6.8 out of 7.0 and a > big plunge, what does that tell you about the infallibility of their rating > system? > > DMC > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Hong Hsu" > To: > Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 9:12 AM > Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Another mystery plunge > > > > DMC, > > > > For OSTE, the total TA score (CET) from breakoutwatch.com is 6.8 > > out of 7. With that score I will tend to believe it has solid TA. Does > > it? Maybe Katherine could share her insight. > > > > -Hong > > > > > > > > - > > -To subscribe/unsubscribe, email "majordomo@xmission.com" > > -In the email body, write "subscribe canslim" or > > -"unsubscribe canslim". Do not use quotes in your email. > > > - > -To subscribe/unsubscribe, email "majordomo@xmission.com" > -In the email body, write "subscribe canslim" or > -"unsubscribe canslim". Do not use quotes in your email. > > > > - > -To subscribe/unsubscribe, email "majordomo@xmission.com" > -In the email body, write "subscribe canslim" or > -"unsubscribe canslim". Do not use quotes in your email. - - - -To subscribe/unsubscribe, email "majordomo@xmission.com" - -In the email body, write "subscribe canslim" or - -"unsubscribe canslim". Do not use quotes in your email. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 15:30:42 -0500 From: "Katherine Malm" Subject: RE: [CANSLIM] Another mystery plunge This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01C352C1.B5DBC2F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Gene, There is never intention to stray from CANSLIM principles. As you know, I am very much a purist in my interpretation of CANSLIM, though I do recognize and speak freely on the limitations and pitfalls of IBD industry and stock rankings. In all of our help files we also caution about the limitations of each particular measurement, whether it is the CE score or an industry ranking/score. CE scores are not intended to emulate IBD's proprietary rankings such as SMR/EPS/Timeliness/AD and other Stock Checkup rankings that they use on the Investors.com site so you there is not a comparison of one vs. another. Instead, we provide a way for people to grasp the general technical health of the stock (CET) and the how closely the stock's fundamentals match the CANSLIM yardstick (CEF). Again, neither of these are used to identify stocks setting up, just the technical price action of the stock. The help files throughout the site itself explain industry ranks, ranks within industry, etc, so I will not go into them here, as that would not be appropriate for general discussion on a public CANSLIM list. The help file on the charts, which we also make available to CANSLIM list members, give the definitions of key items such as comparative RS (RS Line), RS (RS Rank), U/D ratio etc. See it by clicking on the help file on a chart: http://www.breakoutwatch.com/charts/kmchart.php These are the same as the indicators you see on IBD/DGO charts, as they are standardized technical measurements, not IBD proprietary measurements. The only difference is that we do not include Canadian stocks in our database as does IBD/DGO, so our RSRanks are slightly different as a result. The same is true of HGSI/QP2, which also does not include Canadian stocks. As you know, over the years, the DGO/IBD staff and lawyers lurk on our list. They have made a habit of sending legal letters or making phone calls from their lawyers to individuals on this list when they feel their proprietary data is being encroached. That effectively prevents any of us from using one of their IBD or DGO charts for annotations during a discussion, and for the most part from even *mentioning* the values of proprietary indicators such as SMR, EPS, AD, etc. In my discussion with the head of the Wm O'Neil Corporation, I asked why they did not allow us to use these for discussions, as it was difficult to have meaningful CANSLIM discussions by the book when we were not allowed to quote these values. I asked in vein if they would be willing to provide our list with good faith guidelines, as using their data and their products in discussion actually promoted the use of their products. They did not respond. As a result, Mike & I wanted to provide an alternative for list members that would allow them, without fear of retribution, be able to discuss the fundamental and/or technical attributes of a stock, and that was the reason we continue to make both the CANSLIM evaluator and our charts available to folks here on the list. Katherine -----Original Message----- From: owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Gene Ricci Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 12:39 PM To: canslim@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Another mystery plunge Katherine, many thanks for the links to the explanation of the BOW terminology. Using terms different than the IBD language is hard on those that don't subscribe. In fact, getting agreement on the meaning of IBD terminology is a chore in itself. I hope that this user group doesn't stray far from the WON concepts/terminology that took me quite some to learn and gain a minimal working knowledge of..... If my interpretation of the BOW terminology is correct, CET does not stand for TA but rather a minimum set of objective technical criteria that is part of your service. I couldn't find a matrix showing how your definitions match IBD's definitions. Can I assume that your numbers for the following match IBDs? 1. RS 2. Industry Rank prior to the secondary sort 3. Up/Down Ratio BTW, the new design of your site looks to be user friendly! regards, Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Katherine Malm To: canslim@lists.xmission.com Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 11:36 AM Subject: RE: [CANSLIM] Another mystery plunge Gene, Please see the help file on our CE scores at: http://www.breakoutwatch.com/canslim/CE_methodology.htm This file is available by clicking the "Help" button on the Canslim Evaluator, which we make available to the CANSLIM list members who wish to use it http://www.breakoutwatch.com/canslim/ On CET specifically (from the help file, emphasis added), "In How to Make Money in Stocks, O’Neil describes the preferred technical condition of a stock at the time of a breakout, but does not provide a more general description of a “technically healthy” stock. As the goal of the CET is to provide some means of determining the technical health of a stock whether or not it is setting up for a breakout, we assign a score based on objective measurements of the stock’s price/volume action over the intermediate to long term. Scores do not take into account very near term action of the stock such as a recent breakdown, reversal, a broken short-term trend etc. " Katherine -----Original Message----- From: owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Gene Ricci Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 10:21 AM To: canslim@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Another mystery plunge Hong, can you translate CET terminology into IBD jargon? Thanks, Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Hong Hsu To: canslim@lists.xmission.com Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 11:12 AM Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Another mystery plunge DMC, For OSTE, the total TA score (CET) from breakoutwatch.com is 6.8 out of 7. With that score I will tend to believe it has solid TA. Does it? Maybe Katherine could share her insight. -Hong - -To subscribe/unsubscribe, email "majordomo@xmission.com" -In the email body, write "subscribe canslim" or -"unsubscribe canslim". Do not use quotes in your email. - ------=_NextPart_000_0046_01C352C1.B5DBC2F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Gene,
 
There is never intention to stray = from=20 CANSLIM principles. As you know, I am very much a purist in my = interpretation of=20 CANSLIM, though I do recognize and speak freely on the limitations and=20 pitfalls of IBD industry and stock rankings. In all of our help = files we=20 also caution about the limitations of each particular measurement, = whether=20 it is the CE score or an industry ranking/score.  CE scores = are not=20 intended to emulate IBD's proprietary rankings such as = SMR/EPS/Timeliness/AD and=20 other Stock Checkup rankings that they use on the Investors.com site so = you=20 there is not a comparison of one vs. another. Instead, we provide a way = for=20 people to grasp the general technical health of the stock (CET) and the = how=20 closely the stock's fundamentals match the CANSLIM yardstick (CEF).=20 Again, neither of these are used to identify stocks = setting up,=20 just the technical price action of the stock. The help files=20 throughout the site itself explain industry ranks, ranks within = industry, etc,=20 so I will not go into them here, as that would not be appropriate for = general=20 discussion on a public CANSLIM list. The help file on the charts, which = we also=20 make available to CANSLIM list members, give the definitions of key = items such=20 as comparative RS (RS Line), RS (RS Rank), U/D ratio etc.  See it = by=20 clicking on the help file on a chart:
 
http://www.break= outwatch.com/charts/kmchart.php
 
These are the same as the = indicators you see=20 on IBD/DGO charts, as they are standardized technical measurements, not = IBD=20 proprietary measurements. The only difference is that we do not include = Canadian=20 stocks in our database as does IBD/DGO, so our RSRanks are slightly = different as=20 a result. The same is true of HGSI/QP2, which also does not include = Canadian=20 stocks.
 
As you know, over the years, the = DGO/IBD=20 staff and lawyers lurk on our list. They have made a habit of sending = legal=20 letters or making phone calls from their lawyers to individuals on this = list=20 when they feel their proprietary data is being encroached. That = effectively=20 prevents any of us from using one of their IBD or DGO charts for = annotations=20 during a discussion, and for the most part from even *mentioning* the = values of=20 proprietary indicators such as SMR, EPS, AD, etc. In my discussion with = the head=20 of the Wm O'Neil Corporation, I asked why they did not allow us to use = these for=20 discussions, as it was difficult to have meaningful CANSLIM discussions = by the=20 book when we were not allowed to quote these values. I asked in vein if = they=20 would be willing to provide our list with good faith guidelines, as = using their=20 data and their products in discussion actually promoted the use of their = products. They did not respond.
 
As a result, Mike & I wanted = to provide=20 an alternative for list members that would allow them, without fear of=20 retribution, be able to discuss the fundamental and/or technical = attributes of a=20 stock, and that was the reason we continue to make both the CANSLIM = evaluator=20 and our charts available to folks here on the list.
 
Katherine
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com=20 [mailto:owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Gene=20 Ricci
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 12:39 PM
To:=20 canslim@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Another = mystery=20 plunge

Katherine, many thanks for the links = to the=20 explanation of the BOW terminology. Using terms different than the IBD = language is hard on those that don't subscribe.  In fact, getting = agreement on the meaning of IBD terminology is a chore in itself. = I hope=20 that this user group doesn't stray far from the WON=20 concepts/terminology that took me quite some to learn and=20 gain a minimal working knowledge of.....
 
If my interpretation of the BOW = terminology is=20 correct, CET does not stand for TA but rather a minimum set of = objective=20 technical criteria that is part of your service. I couldn't find a = matrix=20 showing how your definitions match IBD's = definitions.
 
Can I assume that your = numbers for the=20 following match IBDs?
1. RS
2. Industry Rank prior to the = secondary=20 sort
3. Up/Down Ratio
 
BTW, the new design of your site = looks to be=20 user friendly!
 
regards,
Gene
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Katherine=20 Malm
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 = 11:36=20 AM
Subject: RE: [CANSLIM] = Another mystery=20 plunge

Gene,
 
Please see the help file on = our CE=20 scores at:
http://w= ww.breakoutwatch.com/canslim/CE_methodology.htm
 
This file is available by = clicking the=20 "Help" button on the Canslim Evaluator, which we make available to = the=20 CANSLIM list members who wish to use it
http://www.breakoutwatch.c= om/canslim/
 
On CET specifically (from the = help file,=20 emphasis added),
 
"In How to Make Money in = Stocks,=20 O=92Neil describes the preferred technical condition of a stock = at the=20 time of a breakout, but does not provide a more general description = of a=20 =93technically healthy=94 stock. As the goal of the CET is to = provide some means=20 of determining the technical health of a stock whether or not it is = setting=20 up for a breakout, we assign a score based on objective measurements = of the=20 stock=92s price/volume action over the intermediate to long term.=20 Scores do not take into account very near term action of = the=20 stock such as a recent breakdown, reversal, a broken short-term = trend=20 etc. "
 
Katherine
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com=20 [mailto:owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Gene=20 Ricci
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 10:21 AM
To: = canslim@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] = Another=20 mystery plunge

Hong, can you translate CET = terminology=20 into IBD jargon?
 
Thanks,
Gene
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Hong Hsu
To: canslim@lists.xmission.com= =20
Sent: Friday, July 25, = 2003 11:12=20 AM
Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] = Another=20 mystery plunge

     = DMC,

   =20 For OSTE, the total TA score  (CET) from breakoutwatch.com = is 6.8=20
out of 7.  With that score I will tend to believe it = has solid=20 TA.  Does
it?   Maybe Katherine could share = her=20 insight.

    -Hong



-
-To = subscribe/unsubscribe, email "majordomo@xmission.com"
-In= =20 the email body, write "subscribe canslim" or
-"unsubscribe=20 canslim".  Do not use quotes in your=20 = email.
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