From: owner-canslim-digest@lists.xmission.com (canslim-digest) To: canslim-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: canslim-digest V2 #3530 Reply-To: canslim Sender: owner-canslim-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-canslim-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-No-Archive: yes canslim-digest Sunday, August 17 2003 Volume 02 : Number 3530 In this issue: RE: [CANSLIM] Another mystery plunge RE: [CANSLIM] Another mystery plunge ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 23:34:11 -0700 From: "Harold Josephson" Subject: RE: [CANSLIM] Another mystery plunge Hi DMC, I would be grateful to learn any of your TC2K programming of CANSLIM criteria that you're comfortable sharing. Cheers, Harold Harold Josephson Tel: 323.850.1333 Fax: 323.512.8968=20 hj@hjosephson.com - -----Original Message----- From: owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of DMC197807 Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 10:38 AM To: canslim@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Another mystery plunge Pritish, No offense taken. I have no financial stake in any of these services. = TC2K is a data service with free software. The data I purchase (about = $20/month) I use not only to feed my TC2K monster, but my Metastock and AmiBroker = as well. I could use the data in other ways, too, but time becomes an = issue. So the TC2K, with rather astounding, and astoundingly easy, = programmability, costs me $240 per year. Let's remember what we're trying to do here: find a stock, one stock, = that is the most likely to perform, and find that one stock on a frequency = that matches our investment/speculation goals. I will hold a stock 1 day to = 3 months (or longer) for performance, so I'm happy if I can find the one = stock out of 8,000 candidates once a week or so. I'm also happy to look at = the charts of 40 stocks a day (TC2K is really pretty marvelous in its speed = and programmability) to do so. It's quite relaxing, rather like playing = cards. I also have it programmed for MA crossovers, bullish and bearish = moneystream indications, volume surges, and high beta stocks showing interesting = price to moving average movements. As for programming the TC2K for canslim, I did it in about 5 minutes--it = was pretty easy. Does it match the CET thing? I don't know, CET is = proprietary (I guess mine is too!). But it does spit out 5-10 canslim candidates = daily. After that, I apply various other filters and then look at the charts. And I'm not criticizing breakoutwatch.com or other programs. What = really brought this up was Hong's statement that OSTE's TA was "great" based on = a blackbox rating. When you look at the daily chart, however, paying = close attention to price action and volume, and other indicators, it seemed = clear that the TA was at least questionable. In a feverishly bullish market, = yes, it might continue higher. With the VIX spiking below 20, SPX COTs = skewed completely against the market, bull/bear at extremely bearish positions, = and put/call reminding us of May 02, is this the time to be going long on = any stock. DMC - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pritish Shah" To: ; Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 9:56 AM Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Another mystery plunge DMC, Please do not consider what I say as criticism. With TC2K, you also have to purchase the subscription. Once you do that, = you have to do the programming in it with the information that it gives. If = such a program exists, then great. If not, then you have to do it yourself. Also with TC2K, do you have to have the software running to get the = alerts? I am one of the subscribers of breakoutwatch.com and I find it = convenient that I can get the alerts anywhere via email. I look at Total Cost of Ownership. If I were to spend five weeks = programming and perfecting TC2K, then I would have spent 5 wks * 40 hrs/wk * $40/hr = or $8000 +$300/yr. In contrast, my Total Cost of Ownership for breakoutwatch.com to be effective is $900/yr. No indicators are infallible. This is an "odds" game. What are the odds = of you succeeding? If you can improve the odds above 50%, you are = successful. If you improve the odds to 60%, it is good. If a tool helps you improve = the odds to 80%, it is great and that is what any indicator is about. For some TC2K makes sense. For others breakoutwatch.com makes sense. Pritish >>> dmc197807@comcast.net 7/25/2003 12:30:15 PM >>> Hong, I'm not familiar with breakoutwatch.com's service (although I did just = visit their site). It looks pretty pricey for something you can probably = program pretty well with TC2K and a subscription to IBD. $900 per year for the "platinum" service? In general I don't think black boxes or canned trading systems work. = What works is careful screening, careful analysis, disciplined trading and disciplined money and position management. Of these four, the most important are the latter two. Academics (business schools) like to point out that no TA system has = been successfully backtested to perform over lengthy periods of time. True enough, because it is impossible to put in enough general market and = proof of trend indicators to reach a "scientific answer." Further proof of failure of black box systems was the LTCM debacle. Also, as Steve Nison likes to point out in analyzing candlesticks, unless you can define the trend, you don't have a candlestick. The big question here, the first question, is what is the condition of = the market. Finally, as for the CET thing on OSTE, with a rating of 6.8 out of 7.0 = and a big plunge, what does that tell you about the infallibility of their = rating system? DMC - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hong Hsu" To: Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 9:12 AM Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Another mystery plunge > DMC, > > For OSTE, the total TA score (CET) from breakoutwatch.com is 6.8 > out of 7. With that score I will tend to believe it has solid TA. = Does > it? Maybe Katherine could share her insight. > > -Hong > > > > - > -To subscribe/unsubscribe, email "majordomo@xmission.com" > -In the email body, write "subscribe canslim" or > -"unsubscribe canslim". Do not use quotes in your email. - - - -To subscribe/unsubscribe, email "majordomo@xmission.com" - -In the email body, write "subscribe canslim" or - -"unsubscribe canslim". Do not use quotes in your email. - - - -To subscribe/unsubscribe, email "majordomo@xmission.com" - -In the email body, write "subscribe canslim" or - -"unsubscribe canslim". Do not use quotes in your email. - - - -To subscribe/unsubscribe, email "majordomo@xmission.com" - -In the email body, write "subscribe canslim" or - -"unsubscribe canslim". Do not use quotes in your email. - - - -To subscribe/unsubscribe, email "majordomo@xmission.com" - -In the email body, write "subscribe canslim" or - -"unsubscribe canslim". Do not use quotes in your email. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 23:44:10 -0700 From: "Harold Josephson" Subject: RE: [CANSLIM] Another mystery plunge This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C36450.4D8C2FA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Katherine, =20 For an otherwise seemingly bright fellow, WON does seem to have a rather loose grip on his best interest with respect to the value of "free" = speech that uses his vocabulary. =20 Best, =20 Harold =20 Harold Josephson Tel: 323.850.1333 Fax: 323.512.8968 hj@hjosephson.com=20 - -----Original Message----- From: owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Katherine Malm Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 1:31 PM To: canslim@lists.xmission.com Subject: RE: [CANSLIM] Another mystery plunge =20 Hi Gene, =20 There is never intention to stray from CANSLIM principles. As you know, = I am very much a purist in my interpretation of CANSLIM, though I do = recognize and speak freely on the limitations and pitfalls of IBD industry and = stock rankings. In all of our help files we also caution about the limitations = of each particular measurement, whether it is the CE score or an industry ranking/score. CE scores are not intended to emulate IBD's proprietary rankings such as SMR/EPS/Timeliness/AD and other Stock Checkup rankings = that they use on the Investors.com site so you there is not a comparison of = one vs. another. Instead, we provide a way for people to grasp the general technical health of the stock (CET) and the how closely the stock's fundamentals match the CANSLIM yardstick (CEF). Again, neither of these = are used to identify stocks setting up, just the technical price action of = the stock. The help files throughout the site itself explain industry ranks, ranks within industry, etc, so I will not go into them here, as that = would not be appropriate for general discussion on a public CANSLIM list. The = help file on the charts, which we also make available to CANSLIM list = members, give the definitions of key items such as comparative RS (RS Line), RS = (RS Rank), U/D ratio etc. See it by clicking on the help file on a chart: =20 http://www.breakoutwatch.com/charts/kmchart.php =20 These are the same as the indicators you see on IBD/DGO charts, as they = are standardized technical measurements, not IBD proprietary measurements. = The only difference is that we do not include Canadian stocks in our = database as does IBD/DGO, so our RSRanks are slightly different as a result. The = same is true of HGSI/QP2, which also does not include Canadian stocks.=20 =20 As you know, over the years, the DGO/IBD staff and lawyers lurk on our = list. They have made a habit of sending legal letters or making phone calls = from their lawyers to individuals on this list when they feel their = proprietary data is being encroached. That effectively prevents any of us from using = one of their IBD or DGO charts for annotations during a discussion, and for = the most part from even *mentioning* the values of proprietary indicators = such as SMR, EPS, AD, etc. In my discussion with the head of the Wm O'Neil Corporation, I asked why they did not allow us to use these for = discussions, as it was difficult to have meaningful CANSLIM discussions by the book = when we were not allowed to quote these values. I asked in vein if they would = be willing to provide our list with good faith guidelines, as using their = data and their products in discussion actually promoted the use of their products. They did not respond. =20 As a result, Mike & I wanted to provide an alternative for list members = that would allow them, without fear of retribution, be able to discuss the fundamental and/or technical attributes of a stock, and that was the = reason we continue to make both the CANSLIM evaluator and our charts available = to folks here on the list.=20 =20 Katherine =20 =20 =20 - -----Original Message----- From: owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Gene Ricci Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 12:39 PM To: canslim@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Another mystery plunge Katherine, many thanks for the links to the explanation of the BOW terminology. Using terms different than the IBD language is hard on = those that don't subscribe. In fact, getting agreement on the meaning of IBD terminology is a chore in itself. I hope that this user group doesn't = stray far from the WON concepts/terminology that took me quite some to learn = and gain a minimal working knowledge of..... =20 If my interpretation of the BOW terminology is correct, CET does not = stand for TA but rather a minimum set of objective technical criteria that is = part of your service. I couldn't find a matrix showing how your definitions = match IBD's definitions. =20 Can I assume that your numbers for the following match IBDs? 1. RS 2. Industry Rank prior to the secondary sort 3. Up/Down Ratio =20 BTW, the new design of your site looks to be user friendly! =20 regards, Gene =20 - ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Katherine Malm =20 To: canslim@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 11:36 AM Subject: RE: [CANSLIM] Another mystery plunge =20 Gene, =20 Please see the help file on our CE scores at: http://www.breakoutwatch.com/canslim/CE_methodology.htm =20 This file is available by clicking the "Help" button on the Canslim Evaluator, which we make available to the CANSLIM list members who wish = to use it http://www.breakoutwatch.com/canslim/ =20 =20 On CET specifically (from the help file, emphasis added), =20 "In How to Make Money in Stocks, O'Neil describes the preferred = technical condition of a stock at the time of a breakout, but does not provide a = more general description of a "technically healthy" stock. As the goal of the = CET is to provide some means of determining the technical health of a stock whether or not it is setting up for a breakout, we assign a score based = on objective measurements of the stock's price/volume action over the intermediate to long term. Scores do not take into account very near = term action of the stock such as a recent breakdown, reversal, a broken short-term trend etc. " =20 Katherine - -----Original Message----- From: owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Gene Ricci Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 10:21 AM To: canslim@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Another mystery plunge Hong, can you translate CET terminology into IBD jargon?=20 =20 Thanks, Gene - ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Hong Hsu=20 To: canslim@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 11:12 AM Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Another mystery plunge =20 DMC, For OSTE, the total TA score (CET) from breakoutwatch.com is 6.8=20 out of 7. With that score I will tend to believe it has solid TA. Does = it? Maybe Katherine could share her insight. -Hong - - - -To subscribe/unsubscribe, email "majordomo@xmission.com" - -In the email body, write "subscribe canslim" or - -"unsubscribe canslim". Do not use quotes in your email. - ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C36450.4D8C2FA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi = Katherine,

 

For an = otherwise seemingly bright fellow, WON does seem to have a rather loose grip on = his best interest with respect to the value of “free” speech that = uses his vocabulary.

 

Best,

 

Harold

 

Harold Josephson
Tel: 323.850.1333
Fax: 323.512.8968
hj@hjosephson.com

-----Original = Message-----
From: owner-canslim@lists.xmissio= n.com = [mailto:owner-canslim@lists.xmissio= n.com] On Behalf Of Katherine = Malm
Sent: Friday, July 25, = 2003 1:31 PM
To: = canslim@lists.xmission.com
Subject: RE: [CANSLIM] = Another mystery plunge

 

Hi Gene,

 

There is never intention to stray from = CANSLIM principles. As you know, I am very much a purist in my interpretation of CANSLIM, though I do recognize and speak freely on the limitations and pitfalls of IBD industry and stock rankings. In all of our help = files we also caution about the limitations of each particular measurement, = whether it is the CE score or an industry ranking/score.  CE scores = are not intended to emulate IBD's proprietary rankings such as = SMR/EPS/Timeliness/AD and other Stock Checkup rankings that they use on the Investors.com site = so you there is not a comparison of one vs. another. Instead, we provide a way = for people to grasp the general technical health of the stock (CET) and the = how closely the stock's fundamentals match the CANSLIM yardstick (CEF). Again, neither of these are used to identify stocks = setting up, just the technical price action of the stock. The help files throughout the site itself explain industry ranks, ranks within = industry, etc, so I will not go into them here, as that would not be appropriate for = general discussion on a public CANSLIM list. The help file on the charts, which = we also make available to CANSLIM list members, give the definitions of key = items such as comparative RS (RS Line), RS (RS Rank), U/D ratio etc.  See it = by clicking on the help file on a chart:

 

 

These are the same as the indicators you see = on IBD/DGO charts, as they are standardized technical measurements, not IBD proprietary measurements. The only difference is that we do not include Canadian stocks in our database as does IBD/DGO, so our RSRanks are = slightly different as a result. The same is true of HGSI/QP2, which also does not include Canadian stocks.

 

As you know, over the years, the DGO/IBD = staff and lawyers lurk on our list. They have made a habit of sending legal = letters or making phone calls from their lawyers to individuals on this list when = they feel their proprietary data is being encroached. That effectively = prevents any of us from using one of their IBD or DGO charts for annotations during a discussion, and for the most part from even *mentioning* the values of proprietary indicators such as SMR, EPS, AD, etc. In my discussion with = the head of the Wm O'Neil Corporation, I asked why they did not allow us to = use these for discussions, as it was difficult to have meaningful CANSLIM discussions by the book when we were not allowed to quote these values. = I asked in vein if they would be willing to provide our list with good faith guidelines, as using their data and their products in discussion = actually promoted the use of their products. They did not = respond.

 

As a result, Mike & I wanted to provide = an alternative for list members that would allow them, without fear of retribution, be able to discuss the fundamental and/or technical = attributes of a stock, and that was the reason we continue to make both the CANSLIM = evaluator and our charts available to folks here on the list.

 

Katherine

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com = [mailto:owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Gene Ricci
Sent: Friday, July 25, = 2003 12:39 PM
To: = canslim@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] = Another mystery plunge

Katherine, many = thanks for the links to the explanation of the BOW terminology. Using terms = different than the IBD language is hard on those that don't subscribe.  In fact, = getting agreement on the meaning of IBD terminology is a chore in itself. = I hope that this user group doesn't stray far from the WON concepts/terminology that took me quite some to learn and = gain a minimal working knowledge of.....

 

If my = interpretation of the BOW terminology is correct, CET does not stand for TA but rather a = minimum set of objective technical criteria that is part of your service. I = couldn't find a matrix showing how your definitions match IBD's = definitions.

 

Can I assume that = your numbers for the following match IBDs?

1. = RS

2. Industry Rank = prior to the secondary sort

3. Up/Down = Ratio

 

BTW, the new = design of your site looks to be user friendly!

 

regards,

Gene

 

=

----- Original Message = - -----

Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 11:36 AM

Subject: RE: [CANSLIM] Another mystery plunge

 

Gene,

 

Please see the help file on our CE scores = at:

 

This file is available by clicking the "Help" button on the Canslim Evaluator, which we make = available to the CANSLIM list members who wish to use it

 

On CET specifically (from the help file, = emphasis added),

 

"In How to Make Money in Stocks, O’Neil describes the preferred = technical condition of a stock at the time of a breakout, but does not provide a = more general description of a “technically healthy” stock. As the = goal of the CET is to provide some means of determining the technical health = of a stock whether or not it is setting up for a breakout, we assign a score = based on objective measurements of the stock’s price/volume action over = the intermediate to long term. Scores do not take into account very near = term action of the stock such as a recent breakdown, reversal, a broken short-term = trend etc. "

 

Katherine

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com = [mailto:owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Gene Ricci
Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 10:21 = AM
To: = canslim@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] = Another mystery plunge

Hong, can you = translate CET terminology into IBD jargon?

 

Thanks,

Gene

=

----- Original Message = - -----

From: Hong Hsu

Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 11:12 AM

Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Another mystery plunge

 

     DMC,

    For OSTE, the total TA score  (CET) from breakoutwatch.com is 6.8
out of 7.  With that score I will tend to believe it has solid = TA.  Does
it?   Maybe Katherine could share her insight.

    -Hong



- -
- -To subscribe/unsubscribe, email "majordomo@xmission.com" - -In the email body, write "subscribe canslim" or
- -"unsubscribe canslim".  Do not use quotes in your = email.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C36450.4D8C2FA0-- - - - -To subscribe/unsubscribe, email "majordomo@xmission.com" - -In the email body, write "subscribe canslim" or - -"unsubscribe canslim". Do not use quotes in your email. ------------------------------ End of canslim-digest V2 #3530 ****************************** To unsubscribe to canslim-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe canslim-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.