From: owner-canslim-digest@lists.xmission.com (canslim-digest) To: canslim-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: canslim-digest V2 #502 Reply-To: canslim Sender: owner-canslim-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-canslim-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-No-Archive: yes canslim-digest Saturday, January 16 1999 Volume 02 : Number 502 In this issue: Re: [CANSLIM] Not Canslim - Bigcharts Tricks Frank [CANSLIM] BBOX [CANSLIM] Cree News Link Re: [CANSLIM] Acc/Dis Numbers Re: [CANSLIM] BBOX Re: [CANSLIM] BBOX [CANSLIM] hard stops...to use or not to use??? Re: [CANSLIM] BBOX Re: [CANSLIM] Not Canslim - Bigcharts Tricks Frank [CANSLIM] Your message to canslim was too big... Re: [CANSLIM] hard stops...to use or not to use??? RE: [CANSLIM] hard stops...to use or not to use??? [CANSLIM] Week's performance Market Manipulation (was Re: [CANSLIM] hard stops...to use or not to use???) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 07:05:52 -0800 (PST) From: TM Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Not Canslim - Bigcharts Tricks Frank Frank, I've been saving up questions to ask you about your work and am prompted to write after your site reference yesterday. The information on your page is impressive (and the links are fast on my computer). I have been collecting some data from the General Market sectors and earnings pages in IBD and have it in very raw form right now. I better see some things to do with it after looking at your page. I have several questions based on my work with groups. The IBD universe is 6000 stocks, your universe is less because you are more selective in screening, I am assuming. Do you know what the definition of the IBD universe is? I screened QP2 for stocks with prices over $2 today(I found that figure somewhere in the IBD- microcaps area) and got 8693 stocks in the 3 exchanges so that's not it. Is your universe all of the stocks from the 197 groups in the Industry Group Book that you follow screened for price and volume? I looked at bigcharts highs and lows on the exchanges; there are more in bigcharts than in the IBD for today;... two different universes? You were working on more current A,B,C,D,E. Did you work it out? Lastly (for today), I saved this attached message from some time ago. I think the links have changed, new http://www.bigcharts.com/reports/bigpics/money-movers.asp?exch=nasdaq&start=1 In the old link, we could change dates to see previous days as you described. Is it obvious to you how to do it with this new link? Thanks, TM - ---"Frank V. Wolynski" wrote: > > Discovered something this morning that may be of use to some of you. > I was looking for a means to research the apparent follow through day, > 6/23/98. > > If you click on the available links at Bigcharts for the Charts Report of > the biggest volume changes with recent new highs, you will receive the > little mini charts of all stocks meeting their qualifications. > > While on that page, if you edit the URL (in the browser address window) and > replace todays date with a date you wish to see the data for, you'll be > rewarded with that days page! Not all the charts are there, but the Tickers > and the Names are. I suspect their cache directory is updated daily. > Interesting though, the charts will be their for the stocks continuing to > meet their qualifications! > > Here a sample from the follow through day: > http://www.bigcharts.com/reports/bigpics/volume-change/nasdaq/19980623/all_d > ata.asp > > Same thing applies for the New High List from the opening homepage. > > Sample: > http://www.bigcharts.com/reports/bigmovers/52wk-high/nasdaq/19980623/all_dat > a.asp > > I don't know how far back they go, but I was collecting screens using > Adobe's Acrobat Writer, as far back as 6/17. I would also assume that any > of the other reports are also available. > > Frank Wolynski > > > - > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:55:41 -0500 From: "The Jacksons" Subject: [CANSLIM] BBOX Hello All, Is BBOX on anyone's breakout watch list?? The chart looks great to me, although the cup is a little deep (50%), eps and rs in the upper 80's. Group strength (computer networks) in the upper 90's. Earnings met estimates. Any comments?? Mark - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:59:56 -0500 From: Craig Griffin Subject: [CANSLIM] Cree News Link For any holders of CREE -- CREE announced several news items today. I assume the dilution as a result of issuing additional shares is hurting the stock price today. You can read all of the news releases on Yahoo, of course. For a local newspaper article on CREE's news today, go here http://news-observer.com/biz/ - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 08:03:44 -0800 (PST) From: dbphoenix Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Acc/Dis Numbers Good thing I kept this. - --Db ..................................... This is a copy of a post made by a friend of mine last January. He also researched the levels of ABCDE one should look for. - --Db <> .................................... This is Ian Woodward's response to a question on the subject. It's based on the aforementioned research. <10%. On each occasion, the resulting drop of A+B to the Total below 62%, fell to around 45%, with the market broken. It hovered at these levels for a few weeks before retracing back up quickly to above 62%, the entire drop to retrace to this level taking approximately 4 weeks. With the number currently at 53%, the market is still weak and in a state of flux. It needs to get above 62% before you can feel comfortable that there is sufficient strength and breadth in the market. This implies that the number for A+B should be around 4500 total. It has another 700 to go, so it still has a fair amount of repair ahead. You should also understand that as the market gets trashed the number of stocks (>$5) goes down, and vice versa. So the current number of 7198 will rise and fall with the strength or weakness of the market. For example, at its peak at the end of October, this total number was about 7570. Likewise, the % of "E" will also give you a clue. Currently, this is 515/7198 = 7.15% - that's bad! For a stable and meaningful market, this number should stay below 4%. As you would expect, the "E" chart pattern is the reverse of the A+B/Total. It hit a peak of between 8 to 10% on the same three occasions mentioned above, and retraced down to the 4% or below level after 4 weeks. You want to watch the # of "E's" come down below 300 for you to be comfortable that the market has repaired. The steady state is between 1.5 to 4% or 100 to 300 stocks in category "E". Likewise, when it gets as low as 1.5 to 2%, you should be on the look out that the market is overextended (over-rich), and is due for a correction. If you put this stuff in a spreadsheet, you can watch the changes and graph the results. With trendlines, you can anticipate when a market is about to break or about to repair!>> == "Lessons are repeated until they are learned." http://home.talkcity.com//MoneySt/dbphoenix/ _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 11:52:43 -0500 From: "Frank V. Wolynski" Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] BBOX At 10:55 AM 1/15/99 -0500, you wrote: > >Hello All, >Is BBOX on anyone's breakout watch list?? The chart looks great to me, >although the cup is a little deep (50%), eps and rs in the upper 80's. >Group strength (computer networks) in the upper 90's. Earnings met >estimates. >Any comments?? Mark > It isn't on my watch list. A breakout (New high -above $41.00) would be necessitated and more volume than it looks like it is capable of generating. It hasn't exactly been storming the gates in relative strength either. Is there a compelling "N" or "C" that is irresistable with the company? The weekly chart is not particularly inspiring. JMTC, you asked for comments. Regards, Frank Wolynski - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:55:39 -0800 From: Tim Fisher Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] BBOX It's on mine. I got it from Ron Russel's list. Chartwise it could be a very sloppy C&H but notice how it has bounced off the low side of 38 like a ping pong ball the last few weeks? I'd call that a pivot point. It couldn't get through it on earnings or an S&P tout either, and I'm frankly surprised, with today's strong market, that it still can't get up there. I suggest you read their earnings release closely - either no one is paying attention to BBOX or there is something buried in there that is making people flinch. P.S. They are in a merger so maybe that's why the price isn't reacting to earnings. It is scheduled to be completed this month. At 10:55 AM 1/15/99 -0500, you wrote: > >Hello All, >Is BBOX on anyone's breakout watch list?? The chart looks great to me, >although the cup is a little deep (50%), eps and rs in the upper 80's. >Group strength (computer networks) in the upper 90's. Earnings met >estimates. >Any comments?? Mark > Tim Fisher, 1995 President, Pacific Fishery Biologists Ore-ROCK-On Rockhounding Web Site PFB Information mailto:tim@OreRockOn.com WWW http://OreRockOn.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 11:53:21 -0700 From: "Joe J." Subject: [CANSLIM] hard stops...to use or not to use??? > solution Dont use hard stops. I recently read about a ploy used by market > makers - They sell one share of a stock at a price say 15%less than the > market. This then sets the low and triggers off all the stops and the > rush will bring the market down. > John > A solution to this problem is to say away from thinly traded stocks. While I agree that MM'ers can and do use this practice, it is obviously much more difficult to accomplish this in a very liquid market. When I run scans for stocks, I will look for average volume of at least 500,000 shares per day. I will occasionally trade trade stocks which have a lower average volume if I really like the stock. I think we have put to rest that float doesn't matter elsewhere so we don't have to worry about high volume stock having too large of a float. This issue of hard stops is a tough one. Certainly if you are sitting in front of your real time steaming quotes screen with instant trading features, hard stops are not necessary. However, what if you're not? I have been burned a few times on stocks that gap down on negative news or a poor market (i.e., this past Wednesday morning). Sometimes the hard stops serve to be towards the low range of the day and sometimes they are not. My feeling is that the cardinal rule in trading is to preserve capital as to be able to stay in the game. Thus, I would rather be stopped out prematurely then risk getting severely burned on a position that continues to decline past where I placed that "mental stop" but wasn't there to watch it. Therefore, I never have a position open for which I don't have a hard stop in. Good trading, Joe J. - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 11:06:24 -0800 (PST) From: TM Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] BBOX I saw a cup and handle, but thought that the handle failed on 1/12/99. Anywhay the way I interpret 3,7,10 MAverages (still learning); 3 crossed the 7 giving a first level buy that day and it has gone down every day since. It has closed in the lower third of its range 3 days in a row which is below its 20 day MA. I wouldn't buy right now. TM > > Hello All, > Is BBOX on anyone's breakout watch list?? The chart looks great to me, > although the cup is a little deep (50%), eps and rs in the upper 80's. > Group strength (computer networks) in the upper 90's. Earnings met > estimates. > Any comments?? Mark > > > - > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:12:55 -0500 From: "Frank V. Wolynski" Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] Not Canslim - Bigcharts Tricks Frank At 07:05 AM 1/15/99 -0800, you wrote: >Frank, > >I have several questions based on my work with groups. The IBD >universe is 6000 stocks, your universe is less because you are more >selective in screening, I am assuming. > >Do you know what the definition of the IBD universe is? I screened >QP2 for stocks with prices over $2 today(I found that figure somewhere >in the IBD- microcaps area) and got 8693 stocks in the 3 exchanges so >that's not it. Is your universe all of the stocks from the 197 groups >in the Industry Group Book that you follow screened for price and >volume? I really don't know how IBD defines it's universe. I purchased the "Industry Groups Guide", but have found in some groups that some really cheap and illiquid stocks are listed. My universe is less. I started with the "Companies in the News" tables. There you'll find up to 24 stocks in a group listed by EPS/RS. I believe the stocks are ranked by EPS+RS top down. I don't have the paper with me. This gave me quite a few of the groups and some good stocks, however IBD is not the greatest in timely highlighting of an appropriate "In The News" group. I then bought the "Industry Group Guide" and added the rest of the groups using the top stocks in each group. To keep my universe current, I check the Weekend in Review, Ron Russell's "Weekly Stock List", Rogers HGS Mumbo Jumbo site, IBD new highs list, Tom's list of NH's and this listserv, Individual Investors quarterly Top 500 update, Big Charts for breakouts, then go around the circle again. All in all a neverending task. I envy DB's more focused approach, but the A--- Retentive natured engineer in me demands my universe be complete and the only way for "relative" to have meaning to me is to know the complete universe, bad and good. So, therefore my universe contains all the groups. (Minus, mining gems and two others. I mean there is hope for me afterall.) Even this is not enough. I've often wanted to move the IBD groups into sectors and look at broader swatches of the markets. Since this has not been done by IBD or WON, I've been hesitant to do it. Besides I have another means to fill that particular void. Many years ago in a Galaxy far far away I used Metastock and tracked the Dow Jones Sectors/Groups by manually entering the data weekly. They are a more liquid group and represent the large and mid caps, Institutional favorites. If I'm going to run around in the jungle trying not to get eaten, I might as well know where the elephants are stomping, or at least know their "paths of least resistance". It works for me. > >I looked at bigcharts highs and lows on the exchanges; there are more >in bigcharts than in the IBD for today;... two different universes? I'm sure of it, but can't help in eithers definition. I do trust the IBD's universe more. Some basic RS/EPS and Group focus is a must for my interest to be ignited. > >You were working on more current A,B,C,D,E. Did you work it out? > Not that I could say mirrored IBD's approach. I found something in Wilders RSI that works for me. I count the numbers of stocks in certain ranges, in regards to the WRSI and graph the result. My interest in IBD's ABCDE is restricted to just tallying the numbers. I have control of my own Mumbo-Jumbo and am comfortable with it. We usually are with the things we understand. As long as WON's ABCDE A/D numbers are proprietary and confidential, I would never have confidence in them. Again the engineer that demands to know how it works controls that area of my life. > >Lastly (for today), I saved this attached message from some time ago. >I think the links have changed, new >http://www.bigcharts.com/reports/bigpics/money-movers.asp?exch=nasdaq&start=1 > >In the old link, we could change dates to see previous days as you >described. Is it obvious to you how to do it with this new link? > They've changed server software. The old system was updated by publishing a new html document to the directory (folder) that contained all the particular charts. The old documents were date named and you could simply change the address and see yesterdays document. The new server is apparently generating the pages dynamically. Takes less human effort on their part with the new method. In short, I couldn't find a way to see yesterdays because yesterday was never on the server as a file, it was generated as "now" and always will be. So any reference to time or date is irrelevant. Can't do it. It is created as you log in each time and day. I hope this has helped. Regards, Frank Wolynski - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:44:34 -0700 From: owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com Subject: [CANSLIM] Your message to canslim was too big... This is an automatic message sent to: canslim@lists.xmission.com Your message sent to the canslim group with the subject of: canslim-digest V2 #501 and sent on the date/time of: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 08:02:21 -0700 was received. However, it has not yet been forwarded to the group. The reason for the delay was that your message exceeds the list's automatic threshold and will require approval before it is posted to the group. The reason this threshold exists is to: 1. Prevent people from quoting vast portions of someone else's message. canslim members are encouraged to trim down quotations as much as possible. 2. Prevent people from unknowingly quoting the entire digest. New digest subscribers are vulnerable to this mistake. 3. Prevent people from sending large data or graphics files through the list. However, you may have just sent a message that was long. This is OK and your message will not be rejected because of its length. In the future, you do not need to seek permission for long postings. I do not want to discourage long, on-topic, original messages. If this is the case with your message, please accept my apologies for this dely. Your message will be forwarded to the group without editing within 24 hours (usually within a few minutes). Consequently, please do not fix and resend your message without contacting me first as this may cause your message to be posted twice (once by me and once by you). Best Regards, Jeff Salisbury - canslim owner/admin - - ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 19:28:10 -0500 From: "Tom Worley" Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] hard stops...to use or not to use??? If anyone can cite chapter and verse (e.g. the date, at least approx; the stock; the price traded and the then current bid and ask; and if possible the firm) that traded that phantom one share of stock 15% below (or above) the market so as to manipulate the mkt into triggering and executing a basket of stop orders, I will be happy to follow up with the SEC (they're only six blocks from my office and I know people there). Personally, while I have seen such blatant attempts at price manipulation, I have only seen it very rarely, and it took a LOT more than one share to achieve the goal. On the other hand, I have seen many occasions where there was a bad "print", usually later corrected. Of course, they don't report single shares, only lots of 100 so this may not explain it. This may have given some investors the false impression of such a scenario. But since I can't prove this transaction of a single share 15% off market, I welcome anyone educating me, and in return will attempt to get an SEC investigation initiated. You can respond via the group address, or directly to me at stkguru@netside.net and I will keep you informed on any results. Tom W stkguru@netside.net ICQ # 5568838 - -----Original Message----- From: Joe J. To: canslim@lists.xmission.com Date: Friday, January 15, 1999 1:43 PM Subject: [CANSLIM] hard stops...to use or not to use??? > solution Dont use hard stops. I recently read about a ploy used by market > makers - They sell one share of a stock at a price say 15%less than the > market. This then sets the low and triggers off all the stops and the > rush will bring the market down. > John > A solution to this problem is to say away from thinly traded stocks. While I agree that MM'ers can and do use this practice, it is obviously much more difficult to accomplish this in a very liquid market - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 04:23:34 -0500 From: "Charles Cangialosi" Subject: RE: [CANSLIM] hard stops...to use or not to use??? Tom, I dont know anything about one share of stock but according to Searandeo, traders legally manipulate prices all the time. He makes the point and I agree that it is not illegal to work within the limits of the rules to try to get the best price. It was really interesting reading, as I have no concept of what happens when an order is placed or how the system actually works. Dr. Elders mentions the "them vrs us" mentality of floor traders and I didn't really understand what he was referring to till just yesterday when I read that section of "Trader Vic". The part that really blew me away was how program trading is done. I had not known that part of the game was avoiding being trampled by elephants. What should be interesting in the years to come now that everyone is on line with a e-trade or ameritrade or something, is how will that change things. Will chart patterns change now that a gazillion people are out here all with our own separate strategies. It's interesting reading. Charlie > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Tom Worley > Sent: Friday, January 15, 1999 7:28 PM > To: canslim@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] hard stops...to use or not to use??? > > > If anyone can cite chapter and verse (e.g. the date, at > least approx; the stock; the price traded and the then > current bid and ask; and if possible the firm) that traded > that phantom one share of stock 15% below (or above) the > market so as to manipulate the mkt into triggering and > executing a basket of stop orders, I will be happy to follow > up with the SEC (they're only six blocks from my office and > I know people there). Personally, while I have seen such > blatant attempts at price manipulation, I have only seen it > very rarely, and it took a LOT more than one share to > achieve the goal. > > On the other hand, I have seen many occasions where there > was a bad "print", usually later corrected. Of course, they > don't report single shares, only lots of 100 so this may not > explain it. This may have given some investors the false > impression of such a scenario. But since I can't prove this > transaction of a single share 15% off market, I welcome > anyone educating me, and in return will attempt to get an > SEC investigation initiated. > > You can respond via the group address, or directly to me at > stkguru@netside.net and I will keep you informed on any > results. > > Tom W > stkguru@netside.net > ICQ # 5568838 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe J. > To: canslim@lists.xmission.com > Date: Friday, January 15, 1999 1:43 PM > Subject: [CANSLIM] hard stops...to use or not to use??? > > > > solution Dont use hard stops. I recently read about a > ploy used by market > > makers - They sell one share of a stock at a price say > 15%less than the > > market. This then sets the low and triggers off all the > stops and the > > rush will bring the market down. > > John > > > A solution to this problem is to say away from thinly traded > stocks. > While I agree that MM'ers can and do use this practice, it > is obviously > much more difficult to accomplish this in a very liquid > market > > > - > > - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 08:14:15 -0500 From: "Tom Worley" Subject: [CANSLIM] Week's performance Hello members, It's been a while since I posted my complete watch list of small cap stocks. Some members don't want it, and while I was not being faithful to my system I felt uncomfortable in sharing unless it was requested privately. I don't intend to make this a regular post, but did want to respond to one member's response to my comment on small cap fund manager's performance. Small cap stocks are certainly not suitable for many (maybe most in today's volatile mkts) investors, but they do work for me. I've been slowly trying to make the time to resume my discipline, and it's paying off. Now only up 12.8% for January, but the ones I'm trying to buy but miss are taking off, thus building my confidence factor. Led to me getting too aggressive on one (DTEK) out of frustration of missing several others. Oh well, you gotta crack some eggs to make an omelet. I chose not to respond to the comment that I was being unfair to small cap fund mgrs unless I too was working with $100 million to invest. With the expansion of the definition of "small cap", as well as the current liquidity (most on my list have ADV of 100,000 or better), I find no justification for a small cap mgr not soundly beating the R2000 and at least staying even, if not better, than the Naz Comp index. My weekly reports generally look just like this list. If I had the capital to just buy everything on my list, I would usually beat most indexes. And now that I am back to some discipline and effort, by being selective and using MACD for timing, I would easily blow away most indexes (except possibly the internet one). Anyway, here's what I've been doing: Switched two losers to my IRA to hold longer term and for tax writeoff to shelter profits (Scan Optics and Misonix). Will hold Misonix long term due fundies, sell Scan on signal from MACD. Neither are currently CANSLIM. Added to my Timberline and Elec. Processing (12.875 and 10 respectively). Profitable on original shares and nicely profitable on new shares. Tried to buy Healthdyne and Overland as they came out of short bases, both got away. Frustrated, bot Display Tech at 6.875 on a pullback after it got away as well, now paying the price for ignoring MACD on this one. Still negative and may pull the plug next week. Tried to buy Take Two, another miss, gotta get more aggressive, or quicker, with these small floats. Tried to buy Rimage but so far no pullback, and after the experience with Display, will likely cancel the order this weekend. Biggest lesson learned for 1998 - gotta stay focused and disciplined. If I can't do this for personal or emotional reasons, or day job workload simply doesn't permit the time to be focused, better cashing out for awhile and take a vacation. Here's the latest week's results with major index comparisons: Security Close 52 Wk High 52 Wk Low PE Ratio Week Chge Best Software Inc 23 5/8 28 1/2 9 3/4 +8.0% Delphi Information Sys 8 1/8 9 1/8 2 7/8 +4.8% Display Technologies 5 3/4 7 13/16 2 5/8 17 -9.8% Electronic Processing 12 5/8 20 8 1/16 45 +7.4% Exactech Inc 10 1/2 13 5/8 5 26 -3.4% Healthdyne Info Ent 9 5/8 9 1/2 1 7/16 +13.2% Invivo Corporation 15 1/2 17 8 1/4 23 +0.8% MDC Corp 20 1/4 24 13 10 -2.7% Miami Computer Supply 27.68 29 3/4 8 7/8 48 -1.1% Misonix Inc 5 9/16 8 3/4 4 1/4 9 +5.9% Overland Data Inc 9 15/16 11 5/8 3 3/8 25 +13.5% Polycom Inc 25 3/4 26 1/2 5 50 +2.2% Rimage Corporation 17 17 1/4 3 3/8 19 +21.4% Scan-Optics Inc. 4 31/32 10 1/8 3 11 +5.9% Secure Computer 25 15/16 26 1/8 6 3/8 +16.9% Take-Two Interactive Software11 1/8 12 3/8 4 3/4 29 +7.8% Timberline Software 16 3/4 20 5/8 8 1/8 25 +4.6% Unify Corporation 9 5/8 10 1/2 1 3/4 48 +21.2% Composite NASDAQ 2,348.20 +0.1% Dow Jones 30 Industrials -3.1% Russell 2000 Index -0.9% Standard & Poor's 100 Index -3.0% Standard & Poor's 500 Index -2.4% Vix Market Volitility Index 29.75 +24.5% Tom W stkguru@netside.net ICQ # 5568838 - - ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 08:39:14 -0500 From: "Tom Worley" Subject: Market Manipulation (was Re: [CANSLIM] hard stops...to use or not to use???) Hi Charlie, It's important to understand first that a floor trader is just that, not an investor, but rather a trader. He (or she, I think there are now a few) make their money on sixteenths and eighths, not on home runs or even base hits that guys like us trading hundreds or thousands of shares need. They are also doing it for a living, it's their job and how they pay themselves. This is also true of the independent "traders" like Connie, who make a living day trading. For most, it's a very intense occupation, and they want to close the day flat (neither long nor short) so they can start the next day from scratch. If they hold a position overnight, they are usually thinking in terms of only holding for a few days, not weeks or months of "mattress stuffing". Second, it's also important to realize that much that has been written about market manipulation by market makers was regarding Nasdaq stocks, and preceded the massive lawsuit now settled for over $100 million by a number of large firms. This led directly to the implementation of the new Order Display rules designed to prevent past abuses and allow individual investors full access to the markets. The NYSE and AMEX have long been auction systems, with these new rules NASDAQ comes much closer to an auction system as well. And with the merger of AMEX and NASDAQ, I expect this process to continue. Third, since "odd lots" are not printed (and a single share certainly would be an odd lot) I don't believe it would achieve the desired effect of printing a trade away from the market for purposes of triggering stops. The same is true of a very large transaction executed off market (e.g. a mutual fund that wants to buy or sell a qtr or half million shares). Sometimes these large "off market" blocks are reported and affect the high or low of the day, but often the high or low is subsequently corrected to exclude these off mkt transactions. I don't question that there will always be some mkt manipulation, heck I've done it myself as an individual investor, as well as while operating the trading desk for a broker dealer. It's part of the business, and the traders I was dealing with were well aware of it, just as they would try to manipulate me. But we were dealing with fractional parts of a dollar, not something 15% off current mkt quotes (example would be I've got a mkt buy order for 5000 shares in front of me, I talk to a market maker who wants to execute it at the offer, I convince him that we need the order done an eighth better, within the spread). However, a 15% difference would be pretty blatant, which is why I offered to take any documented cases to the SEC, as I know they would be interested in any cases that actually occurred that their audits and mkt surveillance systems may have somehow missed. (and their systems are quite good, tho often slow to act without a lengthy investigation) Tom W stkguru@netside.net ICQ # 5568838 - -----Original Message----- From: Charles Cangialosi To: canslim@lists.xmission.com Date: Saturday, January 16, 1999 4:23 AM Subject: RE: [CANSLIM] hard stops...to use or not to use??? Tom, I dont know anything about one share of stock but according to Searandeo, traders legally manipulate prices all the time. He makes the point and I agree that it is not illegal to work within the limits of the rules to try to get the best price. It was really interesting reading, as I have no concept of what happens when an order is placed or how the system actually works. Dr. Elders mentions the "them vrs us" mentality of floor traders and I didn't really understand what he was referring to till just yesterday when I read that section of "Trader Vic". The part that really blew me away was how program trading is done. I had not known that part of the game was avoiding being trampled by elephants. What should be interesting in the years to come now that everyone is on line with a e-trade or ameritrade or something, is how will that change things. Will chart patterns change now that a gazillion people are out here all with our own separate strategies. It's interesting reading. Charlie > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-canslim@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Tom Worley > Sent: Friday, January 15, 1999 7:28 PM > To: canslim@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: [CANSLIM] hard stops...to use or not to use??? > > > If anyone can cite chapter and verse (e.g. the date, at > least approx; the stock; the price traded and the then > current bid and ask; and if possible the firm) that traded > that phantom one share of stock 15% below (or above) the > market so as to manipulate the mkt into triggering and > executing a basket of stop orders, I will be happy to follow > up with the SEC (they're only six blocks from my office and > I know people there). Personally, while I have seen such > blatant attempts at price manipulation, I have only seen it > very rarely, and it took a LOT more than one share to > achieve the goal. > > On the other hand, I have seen many occasions where there > was a bad "print", usually later corrected. Of course, they > don't report single shares, only lots of 100 so this may not > explain it. This may have given some investors the false > impression of such a scenario. But since I can't prove this > transaction of a single share 15% off market, I welcome > anyone educating me, and in return will attempt to get an > SEC investigation initiated. > > You can respond via the group address, or directly to me at > stkguru@netside.net and I will keep you informed on any > results. > > Tom W > stkguru@netside.net > ICQ # 5568838 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe J. > To: canslim@lists.xmission.com > Date: Friday, January 15, 1999 1:43 PM > Subject: [CANSLIM] hard stops...to use or not to use??? > > > > solution Dont use hard stops. I recently read about a > ploy used by market > > makers - They sell one share of a stock at a price say > 15%less than the > > market. This then sets the low and triggers off all the > stops and the > > rush will bring the market down. > > John > > > A solution to this problem is to say away from thinly traded > stocks. > While I agree that MM'ers can and do use this practice, it > is obviously > much more difficult to accomplish this in a very liquid > market > > > - > > - - - - ------------------------------ End of canslim-digest V2 #502 ***************************** To unsubscribe to canslim-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe canslim-digest" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.