From: owner-descent-digest@lists.xmission.com (descent-digest) To: descent-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: descent-digest V1 #42 Reply-To: descent-digest Sender: owner-descent-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-descent-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk descent-digest Sunday, September 30 2001 Volume 01 : Number 042 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 10:00:07 -0700 (PDT) From: the drowning man Subject: RE: RE: (descent) peace On Wed, 26 Sep 2001, Diana Joe wrote: Diana: You are a goddess. This was so well said, that I'm dumbfounded to find any more words. That was incredible. Thank you! - -cedric looking for peace amongst the pieces. > Dear EireGirl, > First of all, in the country where I live, CNN is the > only American TV channel, which is being broadcasted, > so I can't really *watch* any other American > programmes. But I do think that I have a good idea > about how well the vast majority of the American > people are informed. Many of the people in my country > are not well informed either, and I'm not naive enough > to say the opposite. I'm not naive enough to say that > even I am informed well enough. And dear, I know that > CNN isn't all you've got but I don't think that you > have anything that is SO much better. > Second, I am positive that the USA are the most > powerful country right now and I don't blame the > American people for thinking the same thing. They are > right. But this does not mean that they are allowed to > do whatever they want without being punished at the > end. We all know what happened. > And "freedom"... It's just a word that some of you > enjoy saying mostly without a real reason. "Freedom" > cannot exist where there's violence, lies, greed and > more greed. I don't think that the human race has > reached that point that somebody can call their > country "free" without being a hypocrate or a liar. > The only place where you can be free is your own mind > and you cannot get furhter that that (for now). > I'm afraid that you didn't understand something very > very very important: American Politicians Kill People > Every Day All Over The World And They Do Not Do This > Simply Because Their Moral Tells Them That This Is The > Right Thing To Do. They Do This Because Of Their Own > Interests Which In Most Cases Involve Money. And I'm > far from saying that the Americans are the only ones > who do this type of thing. But they surely do it the > most because their power allows them to. And now, do > you think that the americans should *get away* with > this?! They bombed Serbia, what's next? My home town, > my family? The families of those people in this list > living outside of the US? Just think about it.. > More innocent people die BECAUSE of the USA than IN > the USA. And the nations that have come to stand > behind you... well, mostly they're just afraid of you. > I think that they know well enough what is really > going on. > These terrorist attacks were against the whole human > race just as all the American attacks were attacks > against the human race. But some Americans cannot seem > to understand that a dead person is a great tragedy > not only in the US. It's a tragedy everywhere. "I > can't believe that this is America" - these were the > words of an American reporter standing near the ruins > of the World Trade Center. This could be Serbia, this > could be Kongo, this could be any other place in the > world, and it would be ok, but.....oh, no. This could > not happen here. Oh yes it can. I hoped that this fact > will bring some of you people back to reality, but > obviously it has not. > The US should fight the sickness that comes from > inside and leave the one that comes from outside for > later. The sooner you Americans realize this, the > greater the chance that me, my family and tousands of > other people in the world will live to see their > grandchildren. > Byebye now. > > . . . . . Diana > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com > > > - > To unsubscribe to descent, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" > with "unsubscribe descent" in the body of the message. > For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send > "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. > http://www.xmission.com/~marysmth/cure/ > - -Cedric Justice - - To unsubscribe to descent, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe descent" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. http://www.xmission.com/~marysmth/cure/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 10:20:44 -0700 (PDT) From: the drowning man Subject: Re: (descent) peace On Wed, 26 Sep 2001, Jennifer Davis wrote: > that we do it for the praise, but why does the US always have to be > the bad guy? We are a great country (in my opinion) and there is no > where else I personally would rather be. But, I don't feel that I am > better than anyone else > because I am an American. I am just proud of it. There are many > countries just as great as the US who are involved in just as many > things as the US is, but it always comes back on us. I think that > wherever you are from, you should love it and if you don't, then you > should find somewhere to go that you can love. We Americans love > America not because we are different or more powerful, etc, etc., but > because WE LOVE IT. Eiregirl's latest post was right on the money. > Its not right to just kill innocent people because some person/persons > killed our people, but its not right to let the violence go > unpunished. I really believe that if the US's intent was to just Leave the country for two weeks. It will open your eyes as to the tyranny and hypocritic acts that the US does. My eye-opening mwas minor, but indicative of everything that happens with countries that deal with the Bully of the US. I was in Australia, and the US and AUS trade beef and mutton. The US farmers years ago complained that they 'can't compete' with AUSsie beef and mutton: the Australians produce it more efficiently and cheaply... so they coerced the AUS government to stop subsidising the industry, and they followed suit. A few years later, the Aussies recovered and made things even MORE efficient, therfore lowering the costs again to sub-US cost levels. Farmers in US bitch again... (I think they should just get out of the industry, it is a burden on the US economy and free-range land... I don't eat beef because of this) So, what is the US left to do? They have a FREE-TRADE agreement with AUS. The papers in AUS reported in July of 1999 that the US simply broke the agreement and imposed a tariff on AUS beef and mutton (lamb, whatever). This is a MINOR incident, but is HUGE to other countries. The US likes to play on both sides of the fence... firstly by continuing to subsidise its own industries, and secondly by imposing tariffs. It is completely unfair that 'we' did that (I don't like to consider myself owned by any country... I'm a global human being), and this sort of shit goes on in allllllll sectors of the government. It happened with the Natives, it happens in commerce, industry, and military. > kill/bomb somebody, don't you think Bush would've done it by now (look > at his executions why he was govenor....he's not afraid)? I read an > article about the Afghans and I really honestly feel sorry for them. > There way of living seems really barbaric compared to not only the US, > but much of the world. I really felt sad when reading the article. > I mean these people struggle on a daily basis to just reach the basic > animalistic instincts of survival! I'm far from rich, but I don't > worry about starving to death or anybody in my family. I also find it > a shame that the UN is having a hard time feeding/clothing/vaccinating > people at the refugee camps because people don't want to donate money > because of who they are. That's not right. Not all Afghan/Middle > Eastern/Islamic people are "bad". Granted, it pissed me off to see > people in the Middle East celebrating in the streets following the > attacks, but is it really their felt or is it what they've been Can anyone understand, now, why peole would celebrate? If your life was surrounded by death and destruction, and you have this one rich-bitch teenager sitting in her mansion on the hill taunting and poker her nose in everything you do.... if someone bombed her doghouse, people would cheer. Grante, SOME would feel sorry for the dog who was killed, (innocent victim), but I know many of us would cheer. This is sort of what went on, and I can empathise on both sides. I'm hoping that the massive slaughter of 1000s of innocent US citizens awakens our consciousness, politically and spiritually. BUt that isn't what I'm seeing... I'm just seeing capitalist rhetoric played out: little FLAGS being bought for TRENDY PATRIOTISM... flag-shirts, flag chairs... what sort of country gets BOMBED and then goes out and buys STUFF?!! The flag is now soaked in the blood of 1000s of innocent AMERICAN citizens, and all we can do is BUY stuff. Our governement brought this upon us, and we stand behind it... I don't understand... > taught? If you grow up your entire life thinking a certain group/kind > of people are 'bad', then you don't know any different. It's no > different then the prejudice here thinking all Middle Eastern/Muslims > are wrong. Just like any other religion, the people who followed And America does that all the time... OK City? That was ASSUMED to be a Middle Easterner... I'm sure they rounded up all the brown-skins when that happened... but it was one of our own. What bothers me is that the US gets all these HUGE wake up calls, but still sleeps through them... this is an alarm call, a fire alarm, and unless we stop looking outward, we will all die in the flames of our unattended (tobacco company supporting) cigarrette. We need to look at WHY this happened, listen to people and figure out how to MAKE CHANGES HERE in order to avoid things like this happening again. > through with these attacks are extremist. Every religion has them, > yes including Christians....can you say Nazis? I fully support my > governments decision to fight this new kind of war. I understand that > some lives will be lost (Americans included) and although I don't have > a disregard for human life, its a factor of war. What happened in our > country is a grave tragedy, it's not something I want to see happen > anywhere else. If it were to have happened on other soil I would feel > the same. Being an American doesn't make me anything but different > from anybody else. It doesn't make me better/worse/etc than those > from Britian, China, Iran, etc, etc. We are all human inside. So, I > stand up for peace. I have faith in my country, and the countries who > are supporting us in this war, to do the right thing for all involved. > Sorry for rambling so long. I've been reading everyone's post and > just felt really compelled today to share my thoughts. Thanks for > letting me share....... me too... - -Cedric Justice still looking for peace within the pieces. - - To unsubscribe to descent, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe descent" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. http://www.xmission.com/~marysmth/cure/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 12:45:33 -0500 From: "Sky Blue Sounds" Subject: RE: (descent) peace I don't usually get involved in discussions like this, but had to say a few things. First of all, never think that any American person speaks for the whole country, including me. There are a lot of ignorant people all over the world, and the ones that live in this country have the right to voice their opinions. Often their voices are heard the loudest because they get more of a reaction. There are going to be many varied opinions on what we should or shouldn't do, as is the nature of our country. I think we all need to quit stereotyping and making broad generalizations. Diana... I understand (I think) what you are saying about the concept of freedom -- the US is far from perfect and of course no man is perfectly free to do anything they want without consequences, except in their own mind. (And even that could be held to speculation.) I think we need to remember that the "concept" of freedom is one of the founding principles of our country, and while there is much progress to be made, this concept is a driving force. This is what we mean when we say we are a "free" country and "freedom loving", and we are very proud of this. The problem comes in due the debate -- where does one person's freedom stop and another's begin? There's no answer to this, so there can never be freedom in the way that you mean. (ex: If I exercise my right to wear a racist emblem on my shirt-does that not impose on your right to not have to be exposed to this if it offends you?) People have been killed all over the world for expressing or acting on their beliefs if they are different than those held by their leaders -- we never have to worry about this, and in fact, if we don't like the opinions of our leaders, we can vote for and choose a different one. I think when you saw people saying "I can't believe that this happened in America" that you are taking things completely wrong. No -- it's not ok for them to happen other places than here! It's just that many of us have grown up with a very false sense of security, and never anticipated that anything like this could happen on such a grand scale in the US. We know that we are a powerful nation, and thought that we had adequate protection from things like this. It's probably a result of the fact that this generation has never really seen a real war. Most of us have never realized that the stability of our country can be so shaky, so it's a wake up call for us. Also, many of us never realized that the rest of the world hates the US so much. We mistakenly believed that people desired the same things we desire. Yes, there is corruption, but there is also much good. We are a nation made of individual human beings, and many humans are filled with hate, and they are selfish, and liars, and filled with pride -- but many are also filled with love, and charity, and they are honest, and humble with humility. I'm sorry that somehow we've portrayed an image as a group that is unlikeable. It's a sad fact of life that usually people that are out only for themselves are the ones that tend to be more successful and are greater known. But surely, people can't think that the 6000 people that were murdered in this attack is justice because they do not like us, or that we in any way deserved this just because we're not everyone's favorite? Many of the people killed in this attack that weren't even Americans! I agree with you that many Americans are ignorant of what is going on in the rest of the world, and I'm included in this. I often wish that the news programs would quit telling me who the president played golf with today or who is having a baby and tell me what is going on in the rest of the world because it affects us all. Many of us don't even get CNN, much less see anything besides regular network news. Even in the big US papers like USA Today, the International section is usually just 1-2 pages long. If I see something that interests me, the details are so vague that I have to get on the internet to find out more info. Of course, I think I'm probably in the minority by even doing this. And forget the past 2 weeks -- if the International news is not about Afghanistan or about some country pledging their support, it has not been mentioned. I hope that this will change now and that we will open our eyes. But if our country has indeed done things to take innocent lives recently because it was in our own interest, please let me know about it. Let all of us know about it. Give specifics, don't just point fingers. And I'm not talking about those who have died because we haven't acted -- we can't possibly protect all the world, and most wouldn't want us to. There's no way I could follow all the events of the world, and there is corruption in every government, so I'm not surprised that this has happened before and that we don't know about it. But please don't think that we support it. Cynthia - - To unsubscribe to descent, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe descent" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. http://www.xmission.com/~marysmth/cure/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 10:05:27 -0500 From: mitchell j van Subject: (descent) NCC: Bjork tickets for Chicago at the Civic Opera house.. i have 3 extra tickets in section MF RGT Row DD the show is on oct. 14 i am looking to sell these tickets if anyone is interested let me know.. just make me an offer and i will get back to.. thanks mitch ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - - To unsubscribe to descent, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe descent" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. http://www.xmission.com/~marysmth/cure/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 09:57:13 -0500 From: mitchell j van Subject: Re: RE: (descent) peace the U.S. are the bully's of the world, and there form of government is not true to freedom... you are free after are brainwashed and bow down in front of the flag.. I will not, i turn my back on that flag... On Fri, 28 Sep 2001 09:48:45 -0500 "EireGirl" writes: > oh and one more thing: > > i DO care about what goes on in other countries. just because CNN > doesn't > show a lot of what goes on in other countries does not by any means > mean > that no one here hears about it, and that no one here cares about > it. i am > sure that your local news doesn't report on everything that happens > in the > USA and other countries 24-7. i am sure that most of your local > news or > your country's news channel(s) show what is happening in YOUR > country and > the close vicinity. that is why CNN IS an American news channel, it > tells > us what is going on in our country. but that is not to say that it > doesn't > report on other countries too. > > ~~eiregirl > > **diclaimer: these thoughts expressed are my own, but that is not > to say > that i am the only one that feels this way, though i am not saying > that it > is necessarily anyone reading this** > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-descent@lists.xmission.com > > [mailto:owner-descent@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Diana Joe > > Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 3:45 PM > > To: descent@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: RE: RE: (descent) peace > > > > > > Dear EireGirl, > > First of all, in the country where I live, CNN is the > > only American TV channel, which is being broadcasted, > > so I can't really *watch* any other American > > programmes. But I do think that I have a good idea > > about how well the vast majority of the American > > people are informed. Many of the people in my country > > are not well informed either, and I'm not naive enough > > to say the opposite. I'm not naive enough to say that > > even I am informed well enough. And dear, I know that > > CNN isn't all you've got but I don't think that you > > have anything that is SO much better. > > Second, I am positive that the USA are the most > > powerful country right now and I don't blame the > > American people for thinking the same thing. They are > > right. But this does not mean that they are allowed to > > do whatever they want without being punished at the > > end. We all know what happened. > > And "freedom"... It's just a word that some of you > > enjoy saying mostly without a real reason. "Freedom" > > cannot exist where there's violence, lies, greed and > > more greed. I don't think that the human race has > > reached that point that somebody can call their > > country "free" without being a hypocrate or a liar. > > The only place where you can be free is your own mind > > and you cannot get furhter that that (for now). > > I'm afraid that you didn't understand something very > > very very important: American Politicians Kill People > > Every Day All Over The World And They Do Not Do This > > Simply Because Their Moral Tells Them That This Is The > > Right Thing To Do. They Do This Because Of Their Own > > Interests Which In Most Cases Involve Money. And I'm > > far from saying that the Americans are the only ones > > who do this type of thing. But they surely do it the > > most because their power allows them to. And now, do > > you think that the americans should *get away* with > > this?! They bombed Serbia, what's next? My home town, > > my family? The families of those people in this list > > living outside of the US? Just think about it.. > > More innocent people die BECAUSE of the USA than IN > > the USA. And the nations that have come to stand > > behind you... well, mostly they're just afraid of you. > > I think that they know well enough what is really > > going on. > > These terrorist attacks were against the whole human > > race just as all the American attacks were attacks > > against the human race. But some Americans cannot seem > > to understand that a dead person is a great tragedy > > not only in the US. It's a tragedy everywhere. "I > > can't believe that this is America" - these were the > > words of an American reporter standing near the ruins > > of the World Trade Center. This could be Serbia, this > > could be Kongo, this could be any other place in the > > world, and it would be ok, but.....oh, no. This could > > not happen here. Oh yes it can. I hoped that this fact > > will bring some of you people back to reality, but > > obviously it has not. > > The US should fight the sickness that comes from > > inside and leave the one that comes from outside for > > later. The sooner you Americans realize this, the > > greater the chance that me, my family and tousands of > > other people in the world will live to see their > > grandchildren. > > Byebye now. > > > > . . . . . Diana > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! > > Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com > > > > > > - > > To unsubscribe to descent, send an email to > "majordomo@xmission.com" > > with "unsubscribe descent" in the body of the message. > > For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages > send > > "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. > > http://www.xmission.com/~marysmth/cure/ > > > > > > - > To unsubscribe to descent, send an email to > "majordomo@xmission.com" > with "unsubscribe descent" in the body of the message. > For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages > send > "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. > http://www.xmission.com/~marysmth/cure/ > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - - To unsubscribe to descent, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe descent" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. http://www.xmission.com/~marysmth/cure/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 10:04:23 -0600 From: "Jessica Petersen" Subject: RE: RE: (descent) peace Hi there. Jessie, the owner of this list here. I just wanted to let you all know that I do not necessarily agree with the statement that Mitchell made below, but I am not out to censor this list so I sent it on. I feel that his comments will start a lot of "flaming" and I ask that when you respond please keep it intelligent. Any personal "attacks" or anything that I feel is completely inappropriate will not be forwarded on to the list. Thanks. Jessie > the U.S. are the bully's of the world, and there form of government is > not true to freedom... > > you are free after are brainwashed and bow down in front of the flag.. > > I will not, i turn my back on that flag... - - To unsubscribe to descent, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe descent" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. http://www.xmission.com/~marysmth/cure/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 13:16:58 EDT From: OtherVoice@aol.com Subject: Re: (descent) peace I agree that there is a lot of arguing on the list right now without much thought or intelligent content being expressed- Maybe we should all take a deep breath..... - - To unsubscribe to descent, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe descent" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. http://www.xmission.com/~marysmth/cure/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 17:51:53 -0700 From: "Rayna Khaitan" Subject: Re: (descent) cuT HEre amidst all the chaos and anxiety that is pervading right now.............. i just wanted to step back from it all and say that "cut here" is fucking gorgeous. really i am quite taken........ thank you for making it available. ............thankyouthankyouthankyou ............ please take care, rayna - - To unsubscribe to descent, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe descent" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. http://www.xmission.com/~marysmth/cure/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 12:42:04 -0700 From: "christopher ficek" Subject: Re: (descent) peace i live in washington DC and work out of the pentagon part of the time. perhaps this gives me a different perspective.... regarding the argument that the US is a global 'evil,' is self-centered, and has no consideration for the rest of the world: to keep somethings in perpective check out the US Agency for International Development website (www.usaid.gov) for information about how much US aid (non-military) is provided to countries around the world. These are often areas where the US has little or no national interest and there is no recognition that the US is helping. The USAID budget for fiscal year 2001 (FY2001 runs from 01 OCT 2000 - 30 SEP 2001) is over 4 billion 630 million dollars, broken into the following categories: Developmental Assistance...$1,694,000,000 Building Democracy and Governance...$356,000,000 Developing Human Capacity...$196,000,000 Stabilizing World Population and Protecting Human Health... $1,304,000,000 Protecting the Environment...$404,000,000 Providing Humanitarian Assistance...$685,000,000 this money is not money used to buy weapons, overthrow governments, or any other type of subversive causes. USAID is an agency that is there to provide help. I believe that a good number of people had no idea about the amount and/or scope of this aid. this is because the US, through agencies like USAID, does this work with little fanfare. its rather interesting to consider how much money US taxpayers send overseas for humanitarian missions without making a big deal about it. Consider this -- the total FY2001 USG assistance to Afghanistan is $183,648,477. The entire gross domestic product (GDP) of afghanistan (the measure of a state's total economic value/output) was only $21 billion in 2000. Thus, US aid accounts for about 3.25% of the state's total economic value. in comparison, if the US recievied 3.26% of its GDP in foreign humanitarian aid, it would be getting shipments of $325 billion each year. and all of this does not include support provided by non-governemnt organizations (NGOs), charities, and multi-national organizations (such as the IMF, World Bank, and UN) to whom the the US is a key contributor. keep this in perpective next time you say, or someone sys to you, that the United States is not attuned to problems elsewhere around the world or that it, as a nation, simply does not care. PS - for good international news, read the washington post, NY times, or use BBC news (either online or on cable). a means to an end . . . christopher - ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: the drowning man Reply-To: descent@lists.xmission.com Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 10:20:44 -0700 (PDT) >On Wed, 26 Sep 2001, Jennifer Davis wrote: > >> that we do it for the praise, but why does the US always have to be >> the bad guy? We are a great country (in my opinion) and there is no >> where else I personally would rather be. But, I don't feel that I am >> better than anyone else >> because I am an American. I am just proud of it. There are many >> countries just as great as the US who are involved in just as many >> things as the US is, but it always comes back on us. I think that >> wherever you are from, you should love it and if you don't, then you >> should find somewhere to go that you can love. We Americans love >> America not because we are different or more powerful, etc, etc., but >> because WE LOVE IT. Eiregirl's latest post was right on the money. >> Its not right to just kill innocent people because some person/persons >> killed our people, but its not right to let the violence go >> unpunished. I really believe that if the US's intent was to just > >Leave the country for two weeks. It will open your eyes as to the tyranny >and hypocritic acts that the US does. My eye-opening mwas minor, but >indicative of everything that happens with countries that deal with the >Bully of the US. > >I was in Australia, and the US and AUS trade beef and mutton. The US >farmers years ago complained that they 'can't compete' with AUSsie beef >and mutton: the Australians produce it more efficiently and cheaply... so >they coerced the AUS government to stop subsidising the industry, and they >followed suit. > >A few years later, the Aussies recovered and made things even MORE >efficient, therfore lowering the costs again to sub-US cost levels. >Farmers in US bitch again... (I think they should just get out of the >industry, it is a burden on the US economy and free-range land... I don't >eat beef because of this) So, what is the US left to do? They have a >FREE-TRADE agreement with AUS. > >The papers in AUS reported in July of 1999 that the US simply broke the >agreement and imposed a tariff on AUS beef and mutton (lamb, whatever). > >This is a MINOR incident, but is HUGE to other countries. The US likes to >play on both sides of the fence... firstly by continuing to subsidise its >own industries, and secondly by imposing tariffs. It is completely unfair >that 'we' did that (I don't like to consider myself owned by any >country... I'm a global human being), and this sort of shit goes on in >allllllll sectors of the government. It happened with the Natives, it >happens in commerce, industry, and military. > >> kill/bomb somebody, don't you think Bush would've done it by now (look >> at his executions why he was govenor....he's not afraid)? I read an >> article about the Afghans and I really honestly feel sorry for them. >> There way of living seems really barbaric compared to not only the US, >> but much of the world. I really felt sad when reading the article. >> I mean these people struggle on a daily basis to just reach the basic >> animalistic instincts of survival! I'm far from rich, but I don't >> worry about starving to death or anybody in my family. I also find it >> a shame that the UN is having a hard time feeding/clothing/vaccinating >> people at the refugee camps because people don't want to donate money >> because of who they are. That's not right. Not all Afghan/Middle >> Eastern/Islamic people are "bad". Granted, it pissed me off to see >> people in the Middle East celebrating in the streets following the >> attacks, but is it really their felt or is it what they've been > >Can anyone understand, now, why peole would celebrate? If your life was >surrounded by death and destruction, and you have this one rich-bitch >teenager sitting in her mansion on the hill taunting and poker her nose in >everything you do.... if someone bombed her doghouse, people would cheer. > >Grante, SOME would feel sorry for the dog who was killed, (innocent >victim), but I know many of us would cheer. This is sort of what went on, >and I can empathise on both sides. > >I'm hoping that the massive slaughter of 1000s of innocent US citizens >awakens our consciousness, politically and spiritually. BUt that isn't >what I'm seeing... I'm just seeing capitalist rhetoric played out: little >FLAGS being bought for TRENDY PATRIOTISM... flag-shirts, flag chairs... >what sort of country gets BOMBED and then goes out and buys STUFF?!! The >flag is now soaked in the blood of 1000s of innocent AMERICAN citizens, >and all we can do is BUY stuff. > >Our governement brought this upon us, and we stand behind it... I don't >understand... > > > taught? If you grow up your >entire life thinking a certain group/kind >> of people are 'bad', then you don't know any different. It's no >> different then the prejudice here thinking all Middle Eastern/Muslims >> are wrong. Just like any other religion, the people who followed > >And America does that all the time... OK City? That was ASSUMED to be a >Middle Easterner... I'm sure they rounded up all the brown-skins when that >happened... but it was one of our own. > >What bothers me is that the US gets all these HUGE wake up calls, but >still sleeps through them... this is an alarm call, a fire alarm, and >unless we stop looking outward, we will all die in the flames of our >unattended (tobacco company supporting) cigarrette. We need to look at >WHY this happened, listen to people and figure out how to MAKE CHANGES >HERE in order to avoid things like this happening again. > >> through with these attacks are extremist. Every religion has them, >> yes including Christians....can you say Nazis? I fully support my >> governments decision to fight this new kind of war. I understand that >> some lives will be lost (Americans included) and although I don't have >> a disregard for human life, its a factor of war. What happened in our >> country is a grave tragedy, it's not something I want to see happen >> anywhere else. If it were to have happened on other soil I would feel >> the same. Being an American doesn't make me anything but different >> from anybody else. It doesn't make me better/worse/etc than those >> from Britian, China, Iran, etc, etc. We are all human inside. So, I >> stand up for peace. I have faith in my country, and the countries who >> are supporting us in this war, to do the right thing for all involved. >> Sorry for rambling so long. I've been reading everyone's post and >> just felt really compelled today to share my thoughts. Thanks for >> letting me share....... > >me too... > >-Cedric Justice >still looking for peace within the pieces. > > > >- > To unsubscribe to descent, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" > with "unsubscribe descent" in the body of the message. > For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send > "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. > http://www.xmission.com/~marysmth/cure/ > - - To unsubscribe to descent, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe descent" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. http://www.xmission.com/~marysmth/cure/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 13:26:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Diana Joe Subject: (descent) Peace, EireGirl Dear EireGirl, I really don't want to upset you any more. I read your message and I respect your opinion. I know that you're not stupid and as i mentioned the word 'naive' I didn't mean you personally. I agree with you that no country is perfect and as we see, we all take the responisbility for this fact sooner or later. The reflection about our own mistakes could help some people and I'm happy about the fact, that there are such people like you who don't even need this. I don't want to "compete" with you about who's country is more perfect, because I can critisize my own country's politics a hundred times as long as I can critisize that of the US. And, btw, the people in my country, including me, are with white color of the skin and we are christians just like you (not that there would be any difference if not, but..), so it's not quite right to call me a 'rascist' for 'putting down' the US. In fact, I didn't even mean to put down anyone but obviously my intentions have nothing to do with the reality. Excuse me and the next time don't feel obliged to be rude because there is no real need to. Byebye. . . . . . Diana P.S. And just remember that we're in this together. There aren't some freak-out "THEY" who do nasty stuff somewhere, there are just some more of the *us* who have more or less the same problems, who also have dreams, ideals, families and other things, which are precious for them, who feel victims sometimes and who also seek happiness. We should not fight against each other, but we should fight against the isolation which is the source of some of the worst problems of the human race, one of which is the lack of understanding for people who are (even slightly) different. If we communicate more, if we're more open to the world and to the people, than I'm sure that there will be more happy ones among us and less fanatics, murderers and people with no morals. If we go on acting as if we don't give a shit, as if we are powerful and invincible and as if we are something more than the others, this type of thing will keep happening. Everything that's going on is connected and that's why we should think about all the times when we hurt somebody without a real reason, when we were rude to somebody, when we were too greedy or ambitious and hostile and then think about the reasons: were they good enough? Did you become a better and a happier person by doing harm to other people for a little more money, for a little more power, for revenge or just like that? Doesn't every rude word that you say make your soul dirtier, doesn't every bad thought that passes through your head make your mind older? Should you keep on restricting yourself by thinking "locally" and not even wanting to approach the real knowledge that lies somewhere waiting to be discovered? Is it really that necessary to point out other people's mistakes and weaknesses? Shouldn't the power that you more or less have help you build something good or should it give you the right to destroy?.. Maybe it's because I was born not-so-long ago but I'm really not sure why the world has headed in a so wrong direction. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. http://phone.yahoo.com - - To unsubscribe to descent, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe descent" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. http://www.xmission.com/~marysmth/cure/ ------------------------------ End of descent-digest V1 #42 **************************** - To unsubscribe to $LIST, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe $LIST" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message.