From: DeRobertis Subject: Re: (fractdev) test Date: 30 Apr 1998 08:21:33 -0400 ISP got screwed up for a day or so....wonder if I'm off too. Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Peter Gavin" Subject: (fractdev) Developer's version of the Fractint Sourcecode Date: 03 May 1998 15:19:16 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BD76A6.D6891A40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Where can I get this? I really want to see the progress Stone Soup's = made... I also might have some oregano to add to the pot :) Peter Gavin // End transmission ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BD76A6.D6891A40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Where can I get this? I really want to see the progress = Stone=20 Soup's made... I also might have some oregano to add to the pot=20 :)

Peter = Gavin
<pgavin@mindspring.com>
// End transmission

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BD76A6.D6891A40-- Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tim Wegner" Subject: Re: (fractdev) Developer's version of the Fractint Sourcecode Date: 04 May 1998 17:53:56 -0600 Peter asked: > Where can I get this? I really want to see the progress Stone Soup's made... > I also might have some oregano to add to the pot :) I'll make the developer's source available to folks here (as I have done in the past) shortly. BTW the original intent of this this was to be a private by invitation developer's list. However, enterprising folks have found it, and a number have subscribed. Today someone posted a summary of a number of mailing lists, including this one, so it's very public knowledge now. This is not a problem, but we just need to be aware that this is a public list. So far no one here has wanted to keep up with each developer's patch, plus some of the developer's are still more comfortable in the more protected confines of CompuServe, so this list hasn't really begun to be a true developer's communication tool yet. (If there are folks here who have development environments and would like to keep up with each patch, let me know.) I do make developer's version source avilable to those here from time to time. I'll do it more often if interest warrants it. We're not quite at the point of releasing executables because of potential support issues, but that decision could be changed. In fact we can discuss it here if you like. My biggest need for help at the moment is people who are willing to keep up with Xfractint and help debug it. Tim Tim Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tim Wegner" Subject: (fractdev) Tim Gilman Date: 04 May 1998 22:08:50 -0600 Welcome to Tim Gilman, who is working on a Mac port! Tim W. Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul N. Lee" Subject: Re: (fractdev) Documentation and Help files.... Date: 05 May 1998 17:53:16 -0500 Tim Wegner wrote: > > Offline some of us are discussing searchable docs. I'd love > fractint's online docs to be searchable. Fractint's help compiler > and viewer were written by Ethan nagel way before html was > invented. Today it would more sense to use html then invent a new > language, but we'd not want to give up Fractint's context sensitive > help. I know little about html, but I suspect an html file could be > read with an html viewer in fractint in such a way that the viewer > was context sensitive. > FREE DOWNLOAD FOR MSDN ONLINE MEMBERS eAuthor Help from HyperAct, Inc is a template based RAD HTML Help authoring tool. It offers the ability to create, compile and deploy HTML Help titles with ease, shipping with more than 40 pre-defined templates. Download it now at: http://www.microsoft.com/msdn/downloads/ "eAuthor Help is a template based RAD HTML Help authoring tool. eAuthor ships with more than 40 pre-defined templates that make creating HTML Help CHM files easy. With the Template and Wizard Composers new templates can be created to facilitate fast and effortless authoring. Using eAuthor's built in HTML Help project template with the Table of Contents and Keyword index templates makes the task of creating navigation for your Help files easy. When it's time to deploy HTML Help with your application - eAuthor's ActiveX deployment control makes it easy to use, call and embed HTML Help windows in your applications. With Visual Basic all you need to do is drag and drop the eAuthor control on your form, set the ChmFile property and you are ready to display help with the DisplayTopic method." "eAuthor offers the ability to create, compile and deploy HTML Help titles with ease. The template engine makes it easy to ensure consistent layout - even if the project is authored by multiple authors. Changes are a breeze - change the template once and every topic that was created from it is automatically changed." Why do most folks hate cynics so much? Because we're almost always right. http://www.fractalus.com/cgi-bin/theway?ring=fractals&id=43&go Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Peter Gavin" Subject: RE: (fractdev) Documentation and Help files.... Date: 05 May 1998 20:42:32 -0400 I don't think this is quite what were looking for, unless were looking = at a 32-bit windows version of FractInt for version 20. MS's HTML help = is windows exclusively, and this developement package more that likely = is not portable to dos. I have found a few HTML libraries on the net, = you may wish to look yourself. Pete // -----Original Message----- // From: owner-fractdev@lists.xmission.com // [mailto:owner-fractdev@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Paul N. Lee // Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 1998 6:53 PM // To: The Fractint Developer's Discussion List // Subject: Re: (fractdev) Documentation and Help files.... // =20 // =20 // Tim Wegner wrote: // > // > Offline some of us are discussing searchable docs. I'd love=20 // > fractint's online docs to be searchable. Fractint's help compiler=20 // > and viewer were written by Ethan nagel way before html was=20 // > invented. Today it would more sense to use html then invent a new=20 // > language, but we'd not want to give up Fractint's context = sensitive // > help. I know little about html, but I suspect an html file could = be=20 // > read with an html viewer in fractint in such a way that the viewer = // > was context sensitive. // >=20 // =20 // FREE DOWNLOAD FOR MSDN ONLINE MEMBERS // =20 // eAuthor Help from HyperAct... =20 [free Microsoft advertising snipped] Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DeRobertis Subject: Re: (fractdev) Tim Gilman Date: 06 May 1998 00:23:00 -0400 >Welcome to Tim Gilman, who is working on a Mac port! Tim, you don't know what you got yourself into... -- A word from the lawyers, were they to exist: There is a significant chance that this message may contain alliteration, facetious remarks, spelling slips and gramaticalgoofs. Should that be the case, all were intended and/or were computer errors (and thus need an erratum issued for each). Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tim Gilman Subject: Re: (fractdev) Tim Gilman Date: 06 May 1998 09:50:28 -0700 >>Welcome to Tim Gilman, who is working on a Mac port! > >Tim, you don't know what you got yourself into... I'm already afraid. Very afraid. -=Tim tgilman@cats.ucsc.edu t.gilman@apple.com Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tim Gilman Subject: (fractdev) hello world + source-base question Date: 06 May 1998 11:53:57 -0700 fractdev list, I'd like to thank Tim for introducing me to this list. Thanks, Tim. Just a quick little background blurb, so y'all don't think I'm nuts. I'm a part-time student at the University of California at Santa Cruz, and I'm attempting to satisfy my graduation requirements via senior thesis with a documented port of Fractint to the Mac. I'll be graduating in a year or so. Also, I work part-time at Apple Computer in Cupertino, CA, in the BlueBox Engineering Group to pay for school and living. That's it! My question to the list is in regard to maintaining a standard source-base. Robin Bussell has sent me some email suggesting I go the XFract way of lacing the source-code with #ifdefs, to avoid splitting the source-base and fragmenting "the synergies that have produced the present fractint". I'm so new to the development aspect of fractint that I don't know _anything_ about the direction of fractint's development (I've only been combing through the XFract & Fractint code since the beginning of the year), so I can't really guess the appropriate way to go in terms of code-base maintenance. One thing I do know, is that the Mac port will have many differences, mostly due to the complete lack of terminal-type infrastructure in the OS (including command-line, 80x25 ASCII graphic set, etc) and due to the event-driven nature of the Mac OS vs. interrupt-driven DOS. From what I can tell today, using #ifdefs with the XFract source-base to include the Mac port will lead to practically two sets of source. I don't think anyone wants this. Anyway, I'm sorry to talk your eyes off! Any and all suggestions are welcome. Since I don't have any money, and hardly any admiration, I'm pretty flexible in terms of what the final Mac port looks like. C++, modular, whatever; what would the fractdev list like to see? Cheers! Tim Gilman t.gilman@apple.com tgilman@cats.ucsc.edu Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Bell Subject: (fractdev) Deep Zoom and High Bailout Date: 12 May 1998 20:36:39 +0100 Hi, Experimenting with high bailouts using the Mandelbrot set I found that Arbitrary Precision can't cope with a bailout higher than 255. Unless this is already fixed in the developers version it would be nice if it at least came up with a warning instead of just producing a screen of colour 1 (slowly). Michael. Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Bell Subject: Re: (fractdev) Deep Zoom and High Bailout Date: 12 May 1998 22:26:22 +0100 I wrote: > > Hi, > > Experimenting with high bailouts using the Mandelbrot set I found that > Arbitrary Precision can't cope with a bailout higher than 255. > Unless this is already fixed in the developers version it would be nice > if it at least came up with a warning instead of just producing a screen > of colour 1 (slowly). > > Michael. > Investigating further (using the debug=3200 flag) I found that images produced using arbitrary precision with a bailout greater than 14 (at least 15 is the first I noticed differences) are different to what they should be (drawn using normal integer algorithm or floating point algorithm). Take a look at these pars (using 1024x768): test1 { ; Still on Floating Point Algorithm (just) reset=1960 type=mandel center-mag=-1.99181774557028000/+0.00000000000004011/1.367291e+011 params=0/0 float=y maxiter=2500 bailout=10000 colors=000FFF<29>x11z00z10<29>zx0zz0zz1<29>zzxzzzzzz<61>zV1zU0zU0zT0<28>\ z10z00z00y00<30>c00b11a11`22_22<25>FFF } test2 { ; Zoom in to Arbitrary Precision (from above image) reset=1960 type=mandel center-mag=-1.9918177455770101/3.3393975e-12/1.589874e+012 params=0/0 float=y maxiter=2500 bailout=10000 colors=000FFF<29>x11z00z10<29>zx0zz0zz1<29>zzxzzzzzz<61>zV1zU0zU0zT0<28>\ z10z00z00y00<30>c00b11a11`22_22<25>FFF } test3 { ; Use Arbitrary Precision and see what happens! reset=1960 type=mandel center-mag=-0.5/1.016e-5/0.6666712 params=0/0 float=y bailout=127 colors=00000e0e00eee00e0eeL0eeeLLLLLzLzLLzzzLLzLzzzLzzz000555<3>HHHKKKOO\ OSSSWWW___ccchhhmmmssszzz00z<3>z0z<3>z00<3>zz0<3>0z0<3>0zz<2>0GzVVz<3>zV\ z<3>zVV<3>zzV<3>VzV<3>Vzz<2>Vbzhhz<3>zhz<3>zhh<3>zzh<3>hzh<3>hzz<2>hlz00\ S<3>S0S<3>S00<3>SS0<3>0S0<3>0SS<2>07SEES<3>SES<3>SEE<3>SSE<3>ESE<3>ESS<2\ >EHSKKS<2>QKSSKSSKQSKOSKMSKK<2>SQKSSKQSKOSKMSKKSK<2>KSQKSSKQSKOSKMS00G<3\ >G0G<3>G00<3>GG0<3>0G0<3>0GG<2>04G88G<2>E8GG8GG8EG8CG8AG88<2>GE8GG8EG8CG\ 8AG88G8<2>8GE8GG8EG8CG8AGBBG<2>FBGGBGGBFGBDGBCGBB<2>GFBGGBFGBDGBCGBBGB<2\ >BGFBGGBFGBDGBCG000<6>000 } Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tim Gilman Subject: (fractdev) What your missing... Date: 13 May 1998 10:56:55 -0700 Doing this port (to the Mac) makes my cyborg-implants hurt. I'm documenting the coupling between fractint's modules and its intra-module cohesion. The thing is, 800 globals make modularity a bit, er, difficult to document. Is anybody interested in seeing any of this work? A listing of the dependencies between data and *.c might be useful for understanding's sake... -= Tim Gilman t.gilman@apple.com tgilman@cats.ucsc.edu Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tim Wegner" Subject: Re: (fractdev) What your missing... Date: 13 May 1998 19:03:23 -0600 > Is anybody interested in seeing any of this work? A listing of the > dependencies between data and *.c might be useful for understanding's > sake... Sure. I'm also interested in cutting down the globals glut. Tim Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tim Wegner" Subject: (fractdev) Welcome Terry Gintz Date: 13 May 1998 21:23:52 -0600 Terry just joined the list. Wecome! We're considering various possible joint projects. FWIW, I have ordered Microsft Visual C/C++. I also have the latest dgjpp, and am looking at TK/TCL. Tim Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terry W. Gintz" Subject: Re: (fractdev) Welcome Terry Gintz Date: 13 May 1998 20:29:40 -0700 Tim Wegner wrote: > Terry just joined the list. Wecome! We're considering various > possible joint projects. Thanks, Tim. One project that comes to mind right now (before getting started on a larger remake of Fractint) is a plug-in project I've just been considering for my new program Dofo. It would be great for users to have a formula plug-in of all the built-in escape-time fractals in Fractint. Another terrific plug-in to have would be a rendering plug-in to include most of the rendering methods in Fractint that might work well in true color. This would include most of the scalable methods, related to potential, polar angles and level sets. Maybe an explanation would be in order for the plug-in spec I am talking about. Steve Ferguson and I have developed a fairly simple dynamic library interface for Windows 95. So far it works with my program Dofo and Steve's program Dllirium Tremor/Tierian Kaos(the name keeps changing.) Right now I can provide guidelines for application programmers to support our spec, and source code for the dlls. I'll be working on plug-in guidelines soon. It would be a big step forward to actually see how the current escape-time formulas and rendering algorithms contained in Fractint would perform in a 32-bit Windows program. Later if anyone's interested in browsing my source code for Dofo, to suggest speed improvements, I could make a src zip available. So, is anyone interested in helping to write the kinds of plug-ins I'm talking about here? The formula plug-in would probably be the easiest to get started on. > > > FWIW, I have ordered Microsft Visual C/C++. I also have the latest > dgjpp, and am looking at TK/TCL. > > Tim Tim,About the djgpp compiler. There's something in the latest version that isn't compatible with the dlls Steve Ferguson is writing and has written. So we're using an earlier version of some of the compiler components to maintain compatibility. Steve could give you a list of his setup. Mine is nearly the same, except that I get a lot of compiler warnings about some of the headers in the RSX includes being "unreadable", but the files still compile and link okay. Terry -- twgg@ix.netcom.com http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/5601/ http://www.zenweb.com/pan/rayn/twg/ http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/palette/31/ Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tim Wegner" Subject: Re: (fractdev) Welcome Terry Gintz Date: 13 May 1998 22:43:52 -0600 > So, is anyone interested in helping to write the kinds of plug-ins I'm > talking about here? The formula plug-in would probably be the easiest > to get started on. I would like to see what you have done, but for me personally getting Fractint moved to a 32 bit environment is the highest priority. But I would like to understand your plugin's better. > Tim,About the djgpp compiler. There's something in the latest version > that isn't compatible with the dlls Steve Ferguson is writing and has > written. So we're using an earlier version of some of the compiler > components to maintain compatibility. Steve could give you a list of > his setup. I am interested in this. Tim Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Peter Gavin" Subject: RE: (fractdev) Welcome Terry Gintz Date: 13 May 1998 23:43:49 -0400 [ big message about plugins and whatnot snipped :) ] I'm currently working on writing a fast arbitrary precision float class = for win32... I will probably implement it as an MFC extension dll, to = make things easier for the end user. Interested? Pete Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terry W. Gintz" Subject: Re: (fractdev) Welcome Terry Gintz Date: 13 May 1998 22:59:35 -0700 Peter Gavin wrote: > [ big message about plugins and whatnot snipped :) ] > > I'm currently working on writing a fast arbitrary precision float class for win32... I will probably implement it as an MFC extension dll, to make things easier for the end user. Interested? Pete, depends on whether you could write it to comply with Steve Ferguson's and my plug-in spec. I'm not sure how it would fit into a formula dll or a render dll. You'll have to brief me on the basics of arbitrary precision and how it relates to fractals. It's not something I've coded before. Are you referring to the kind of precision switch that Fractint started out with to switch from integer math to floating point, or a precision switch to support deep zooming? Steve and I are using double precision in our v1.0 plug-in spec. There isn't a basis for using any other precison in our current programs(since neither of us does much deep zooming.) Maybe arbitrary precision could be used transparently in the plug-in, with the results returned as double, if that had some use. We've had some trying times to get our spec together, because of individual coding preferences. Both of us had to make compromises, and one of them was that the common data types include no unions, which would be necessary to support both double and long double in the same variable. Our plug-ins aren't specifically written as MFC extension dlls, as they work with any 32-bit program. I guess you could call them extension dlls though. I code only in C++ compatible C, until I learn MFC, while Steve has a lot of MFC experience. You should probably talk to him about MFC details. I'm going to try to make some time to start a Fractint plug-in, at least for formulas, since I probably know that end of the Fractint code enough to use it. Then there might be some interest in benchmarking my results. Terry -- twgg@ix.netcom.com http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/5601/ http://www.zenweb.com/pan/rayn/twg/ http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/palette/31/ Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Peter Gavin" Subject: RE: (fractdev) Welcome Terry Gintz Date: 14 May 1998 14:58:55 -0400 Well, arbitrary precision means that you dont have a limit to the digits = of precision in a floating point number. This would be used for deep = zooming. It is (err... will be :) )implemented so that you can just = replace any instance of 'double' (or 'long double') in your code with = the class's name, i.e., with c++ operator overloading. I'm also going = to put a complex class in the dll that uses a.p., so its application to = fractals is even more useful. I'm still trying to hash out details in = the algorithm, but it will use number theoretical transforms for = multiplication, which (other than + and -) everything else is more or = less based on. Pete Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terry W. Gintz" Subject: (fractdev) greetings and introductions Date: 14 May 1998 15:59:38 -0700 Hello to all of the Fractint team, I'm happy to be given the chance to contribute to the Fractint legend, and at the same time get better aquatinted with what has been one super bunch of programmers. Hopefully noone was seriously distressed by the "platform wars" that I inadvertently initiated on the fractint list. That was mainly a wakeup call, to see what kind of stuff the Fractint team is still composed of. Unfortunately, the responders weren't who I expected, and the platform biases I have seen over and over since Windows was first introduced. Before we go any further with a joint project, I'd like to introduce myself and say a little about my involvement with fractals and main programming strengths and weaknesses. For those of you who haven't browsed my Geocities home page, I'm an incorrigible Alameda poet who's been married for 18 years and has three teenagers for offspring. My main source of income is a mailer's job at the S.F. News Agency in Union City, California. I've been dabbling in fractals since 1984, beginning my first major fractal program, ZPlot, on an Amiga computer in 1988, about the same time Fractint was being born on the IBM pc. All of my fractal programs have been windows based, with a heavy stress on algorithms gathered from the classic fractal texts of the time such as Mandelbrot's Fractal Geometry of Nature and the Springer-Verlag books by Pietgen/Saupe, etc. With my first fractal program I wanted to go much further than anything that had been done before. I was taking college algebra at the time, and my professor was very helpful in orienting me to the complex math that enabled me to provide support for almost all complex math functions. The parser I developed at this time may have come out of the programming courses I was taking, but it was largely a product of my imagination, and limited to interpreting an integer array of op codes. Later I learned to optimize it more in pre-compiling down to function-pointer calls, but the Fractint parser still exceeds my best efforts by far. I've managed to make my parser compatible to a large degree with Fractint's 19.x parser, by browsing the public domain pars and source code for Fractint. Along the fractal way I've taught myself some differential calculus, coded quaternion transcendental math and extended my initial 2D complex math to 4D using the hypercomplex extensions described in Fractal Creations, the second edition. So you might gather that in programming math is one of my strengths, plus the tenacity to figure out other peoples source code. I don't use any code unless I've been given permission by the author. With all my experience in coding fractal algorithms, I could still stand to learn to use C++ and MFC. I know what is C++ compatible, but I haven't written any programs in C++. One other thing about me, if I have your ear thus far: it may seem at times I am wordy and rambling, and some of that may be due to my poetic leanings, loving words and all that. More important, I like to be complete in my messages to avoid a lot of explanations later. It does no good to start in on something that people have no reference point for, as Peter did, when he assumed I knew all about arbitrary precision. Enough about me. Before I can gage what help I can give to the Fractint team, I need to know who is supporting what in the Fractint code, and if there's enough support/breadth there to make the port to 32-bits possible. Introductions would help. I can say now that I have downloaded the code for Fractint 19.6, and with some quirks recompiled it with MSVC++ 1.52. I'm not sure if that is going to buy me anything, since only the makefrac.bat file seemed to work to compile the source. I still can't use my debugger to step through the code in areas where the program flow might be useful to follow. With the large number of globals in the code, it's hard to determine just what variables a function is dependent on, or what is really being returned by a function. Not always, but without the debugger it's plodding to trace the code manually. Best Regards, Terry -- twgg@ix.netcom.com http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/5601/ http://www.zenweb.com/pan/rayn/twg/ http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/palette/31/ Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tim Wegner" Subject: Re: (fractdev) What your missing... Date: 15 May 1998 21:26:05 -0600 Tim G., I hope you don't mind my answering you here in fractdev and not privately. I think the discussion is of general interest. > If the XFract version I've got now > contains all the floating-code, then I'll be happy. But, if there's > major changes between the float-only version and the interger-capable > version (besides the stubs), I'd be interested in changing source-bases > ASAP, which for me is right after I'm done with this profiling bit. The public Xfract doesn't support integer math, but it is based on sources that do support it. I haven't gotten the fractint team to agree yet to take out integer math, so I am maintaining two versions. The tradeoff is that if you used my float- only version, everything would be cleaner. There are a lot of ifdefs in the full source that make Xfractint skip the integer code. Obviously, in my float-only version, these are not needed because all support for integer math is gone. On the other side, if the fractint team doesn't go with my float-only version (we probably will make one more release with integer math in it) then you'd not be sharing source with fractint if you used my float-only version. I do strongly suggest that you start with my developer version, whether float- only or not. This will give you all the functionality of the next version and save you trouble later. . > I would love to create a literal port. More than that, though, I'd love > to see enough abstraction added to the source-base to allow "engine-code" > to be abstracted from "gui" code. Ideally I'd like to juggle the two > goals, but right now I'm having a hard time drawing a line between the > two based on the current XFract source. Other people on this list are interested in abstracting. What I am willing to do if you opt for a literal port (one where we keep your version and ours synched) is flow changes in the source that are necessary into our version as we go, and vice versa. As you discover places where abstraction has to happen, be can help. > I'll take a look at > Bert Tyler's Windows port; the idea of getting the complete Fractint > interface for free is definitly appealing. And, if this approach yields > a working port, I'd be happy with the abstraction layers of the Mac-base > acting as the gui, and the XFract-base acting as the engine-code. Actually, you don't have to look at WInfract. Xfract is already a literal port! The only change Xfract made to the interface was to have two windows, one for the graphics output and one for the text-based input. You could do the same thing on the map. What Bert Tyler did was make Windows-style menus that did the same thing as the character-based menus, and made a switch to move between the two kinds of menus. > If porting Fractint's text screen reading and writing routines yields a > completely capable interface, wouldn't a "true" X-port (including > X-windowing calls/GUI) sit on top of the XFract source-base and rewrite > the routines needed to access Fractint's interface? Is this the approach > XMFract takes? Yes, but "sit on top" is not right. XMFract rewrote extensively (and probably improved) the code. The only problem was that we became unsynched. The author intended to start over with a literal port so we could work together on a GUI, but he hasn't been able to free up enough time for this project. > Doh! I'll check out the WinFract sources, and further ponder the > ramifications of a literal port. Will the Stone Soup Group be growing > the XFract source-base towards the goal of greater engine-abstraction? > I'd be happy to see (and help) the XFract base mutate to be just the > fractal-engine base, with appropriate EPI's to allow encapsulation by > whatever computing environment. We'd love to see a portable Fractint, but it's hard to say what the current developers have the energy and time for. One possibility would be to make a portable GUI in TK/TCL. This would even port to the Mac. But another approach would be to abstract the interface and have each platform write their own GUI. Tim W. Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christian Strik" Subject: Re: (fractdev) Welcome Terry Gintz Date: 15 May 1998 23:57:44 +0100 Tim wrote: > I also have the latest dgjpp, and am looking at TK/TCL What is d-g-j-p-p really? Never heard of it. Christian Strik Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tim Wegner" Subject: (fractdev) What is djgpp Date: 16 May 1998 12:56:17 -0600 Christian wrote: > What is d-g-j-p-p really? Never heard of it. djgpp is the DOS port of the free GNU C compiler. It includes a DOS extender so that compiled programs have a flat memory model and can address extended memory, and is not limited to 640K like conventional DOS programs. See http://www.delorie.com/djgpp/ Tim Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tim Gilman Subject: Re: (fractdev) What your missing... Date: 18 May 1998 09:46:48 -0700 > Tim writes: >I do strongly suggest that you start with my developer version, whether >float-only or not. This will give you all the functionality of the next >version and save you trouble later. Can you point me to your developer version? -= Tim Gilman t.gilman@apple.com tgilman@cats.ucsc.edu Tim Gilman BlueBox Engineering t.gilman@apple.com Apple Computer, Inc. Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darryl" Subject: (fractdev) I saw my shadow! Date: 18 May 1998 18:42:02 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BD828C.A68665E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi folks! Like a groundhog, I do pop up occasionally to check the weather... I've been extremely busy with a startup company the last few (more than a few) months so, as Tim said, I haven't been able to contribute much to the discussions or the code.. that hasn't really changed, but I guess my priorities have, though ... 'cause I am willing to help in any way I can to urge the projects along. I have diligently followed these discussions, though. xmfract has not changed since gawd knows when, it is still based on way-outdated code. Please, if it is of any value at all, grab chunks of that and mangle it at will ... I wrote it originally as a teaching aid for Motif, and rapidly got hooked on the whole stone soup thing :) What a great pool of folks we have here. If you want the antiquated code, it lives at ftp.x.org, in /contrib/graphics/xmfract_1.4.tar.gz Beware of some other mirror sites that have earlier beta versions ... sheesh, I don't think they ever maintain some of these places :) For anyone who asks, I will provide a statically linked binary version for Linux (ELF), because Motif is a commercial product, and not every site has the libs. My intention is to devote at least two hours a week to the group, so if you have anything that you want me to do, please ask! Otherwise, I will keep up with things here and if I see a place that might benefit from my meager talents, I am not shy about speaking my mind :p Take care, and have fun! Darryl House ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BD828C.A68665E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi=20 folks!

Like a=20 groundhog, I do pop up occasionally to check the = weather...

I've=20 been extremely busy with a startup company the last few (more than a = few) months=20 so, as Tim said, I haven't been able to contribute much to the = discussions or=20 the code.. that hasn't really changed, but I guess my priorities have, = though=20 <g>... 'cause I am willing to help in any way I can to urge the = projects=20 along.

I have=20 diligently followed these discussions, though.

xmfract has not changed since gawd knows when, it is still = based on=20 way-outdated code.

Please, if it is of any value at all, grab chunks of that and = mangle it=20 at will ... I wrote it originally as a teaching aid for Motif, and = rapidly got=20 hooked on the whole stone soup thing :) What a great pool of folks we = have=20 here.

If you=20 want the antiquated code, it lives at ftp.x.org, in=20 /contrib/graphics/xmfract_1.4.tar.gz

Beware=20 of some other mirror sites that have earlier beta versions ... sheesh, I = don't=20 think they ever maintain some of these places :)

For=20 anyone who asks, I will provide a statically linked binary version for = Linux=20 (ELF), because Motif is a commercial product, and not every site has the = libs.

My=20 intention is to devote at least two hours a week to the group, so if you = have=20 anything that you want me to do, please ask! Otherwise, I will keep up = with=20 things here and if I see a place that might benefit from my meager = talents, I am=20 not shy about speaking my mind :p

Take=20 care, and have fun!

Darryl=20 House

<darryl@dcs-chico.com>

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BD828C.A68665E0-- Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Peter Gavin" Subject: (fractdev) FFT Explanation Date: 19 May 1998 00:08:08 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BD82BA.34159700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone know where I can get an easy to understand explanation of = FFT's? Particularly the transition from DFT's to FFT's? I have a dozen = papers d/led from assorted places on the web, but all explain it in = big-headed-mathematician-symbols :) (I mean, do they really have to = show off by using notation no one understands? I guess, they want to be = the only ones who understand it, so they look smarter :) Heh, look at = me, I'm majoring in math, I'll probably use the same notation in 3 or 4 = years :) ) Btw, I have taken Calc for two years, (well, only high = school calc, though...) but some of the language is so inconsistent (in = the papers I d/led, I mean), I don't understand it. anyways... Thanks in advance! Peter Gavin // End transmission ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BD82BA.34159700 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Does=20 anyone know where I can get an easy to understand explanation of = FFT's? =20 Particularly the transition from DFT's to FFT's? I have a dozen = papers=20 d/led from assorted places on the web, but all explain it in=20 big-headed-mathematician-symbols :) (I mean, do they = really have=20 to show off by using notation no one understands? I guess, they = want to be=20 the only ones who understand it, so they look smarter :) = Heh,=20 look at me, I'm majoring in math, I'll probably use the same notation in = 3 or 4=20 years :) ) Btw, I have taken Calc for two years, (well, only = high=20 school calc, though...) but some of the language is so inconsistent (in = the=20 papers I d/led, I mean), I don't understand it. =20 anyways...

Thanks in advance!

Peter = Gavin
<pgavin@mindspring.com>
// End transmission

------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BD82BA.34159700-- Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tim Wegner" Subject: Re: (fractdev) I saw my shadow! Date: 18 May 1998 23:19:14 -0600 Darryl wrote: > Hi folks! > > Like a groundhog, I do pop up occasionally to check the weather... Darryl, I'm sure glad to hear from you!!! I have some questions. I am about two versions of Linux behind (eg I have CDs for newer versions that I haven't installed yet). Will I have any trouble with my Motif setup if I upgrade my Linux? When we talked before, we discussed using TK for a GUI rather than Motif. I'm still insterested in this because TK exists on every platform. Does this mean I don't need to worry about my Motif environment? > My intention is to devote at least two hours a week to the group, so if you > have anything that you want me to do, please ask! Otherwise, I will keep up > with things here and if I see a place that might benefit from my meager > talents, I am not shy about speaking my mind :p I have been trying to keep Xfract up with the developer's version. I could use help from folks helping me debug Xfractint. This doesn't need to be time consuming. I'll upload the developer version in the next couple of days. Momentum for working on a 32 bit version is building! Tim Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tim Wegner" Subject: Re: (fractdev) What your missing... Date: 18 May 1998 23:19:14 -0600 Tim G. > Can you point me to your developer version? No because I have to upload a fresh one. It's been a little hectic around here, hang in there, and I'll have it for you by tomorrow at the latest. Tim Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Damien M. Jones" Subject: Re: (fractdev) FFT Explanation Date: 19 May 1998 00:23:47 -0500 Peter, The difference between a DFT and an FFT is basically implementation. In a DFT, you check for a lot of waves in your sample data, and this involves a *lot* of repeated calculations. The FFT approach takes advantage of the repetitive nature of the calculations to eliminate a large chunk of the work. The results, as I understand it, are the same. (Someone *please* correct me if I'm wrong!) As to good explanations... the entire DFT/FFT thing was a complete mystery to me until I saw something that pointed out what happens when you multiply two sine waves together... outlining the basic technique behind DFT in the first place. Now it actually kinda makes sense. But what I know about it (scarcely anything) was not gleaned from a single source. Good hunting! Damien M. Jones \\ dmj@fractalus.com \\ http://www.icd.com/tsd/ (temporary sanity designs) \\ http://www.fractalus.com/ (fractals are my hobby) Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darryl" Subject: (fractdev) gui considerations Date: 18 May 1998 23:28:24 -0700 Hi again! Tim wrote: --- I have some questions. I am about two versions of Linux behind (eg I have CDs for newer versions that I haven't installed yet). Will I have any trouble with my Motif setup if I upgrade my Linux? --- No, Motif 2.x is completely compatible with any release of Linux and/or X. The newer version of the X11R6 libraries require a modification to the Makefile for xmfract to add -lXext -lXpm. Any version of Motif greater >= 1.2 will work, as will any version libc or glibc. Tim wrote: --- When we talked before, we discussed using TK for a GUI rather than Motif. I'm still insterested in this because TK exists on every platform. Does this mean I don't need to worry about my Motif environment? --- I still like Motif, but I cannot in good conscience recommend it as a gui for this sort of project, it is commercial (bummer) and it is definitely not portable to Microsoft operating systems :) There are freeware versions of it out there, and look-alikes for win32 platforms, but they are mutually incompatible, and buggy. I still have some reservations about Tcl/Tk ... it is an interpreted language, and white space matters :( ... a good benchmark would be to obtain the irc client called zircon to see what Tcl/Tk looks and feels like. There are two versions of that program in the available package (I don't like the client, btw, but it is a good representation of the kinds of things that Tcl and Tk do). The first version is formatted like any other script, and runs ok. The second version has most of the white space removed and is noticeably faster. Of course, this obfuscates the code so badly that it is not readable. Try it and see . I have heard a rumor that a compiled version is available for some platforms, but that sort of violates our goal of a universal gui. Since the gui is a small portion of what we really want FRACTINT for, this may not be a serious limitation. The pros: it is quite portable, easily customized, and it looks a lot like Motif :) So... Tcl/Tk seems to be the best choice :) ... there are other choices, and I have waited this long to make a recommendation of any one because I wanted to see what the market would do with the new products. As I should have guessed, they've been all but quashed. I don't want to start a long discussion of the merits or possible futures of these things, but Open/GL and even Motif may be dying. Tim wrote: --- I have been trying to keep Xfract up with the developer's version. I could use help from folks helping me debug Xfractint. This doesn't need to be time consuming. I'll upload the developer version in the next couple of days. --- I will be more than pleased to be able to help in any way I can! I will obtain the source from you when it is available. Thank you! Take care, and have fun! Darryl House Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tim Wegner" Subject: (fractdev) various sources for 19.61 p44 Date: 19 May 1998 23:27:47 -0600 I have uploaded the following for the current developer version. You are free to download, but please don't upload anywhere else. These files have a life of a few days. Also note that we are changing the source distribution to require that any program that uses our sources must publish their own source. I haven't edited the source to reflect this yet. ftp://ftp.phoenix.net/pub/USERS/twegner/x1961p44.zip (xfractint source) ftp://ftp.phoenix.net/pub/USERS/twegner/f1961p44.zip (float only DOS source) ftp://ftp.phoenix.net/pub/USERS/twegner/s1961p44.zip (regular DOS source) A few notes: 1. Due to an oversight, these versions announce themselves as patch 43 (encoded in realdos.c) but they are really patch 44. The "What's New" in the help tells the true version. We'll fix this the next patch. 2. The xfractint and regular versions have absolutely identical source for the files they share. Note to Tim Gilman - this might be impossible, but this is a great goal. 3. The float-only version doesn't have the latest parser.c. Still working on that. 4. Best to unpack the Xfractint version with zip -a to fix all the CR/LF 5. I know some things don't work in the Xfractint version, in particular some aspects of the fractal evolver (see what's new). I'd like to work over Xfractint and get it well debugged. 6. I haven't yet tried to make a float-only version of Xfractint. This is probably just a matter of dumping the float-only source on top of the Xfractint source and cleaning up the various integer stubs. If anyone wants me to do this (Tim G?), let me know. Our plan is to release the current version when it gets cleaned up as version 20. I'd like this to be the last version that has integer math. But you never know :-) If anyone has proposed changes, I can accept them as a context diff created with something like: diff -c file.c new/file.c > yourchanges.dif Tim Wegner Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: condor Subject: (fractdev) autoconf Date: 20 May 1998 01:00:13 -0700 Hi folks; Just got the xfractint source, thanks, will start testing this evening. Do you all know about the autoconfigure convention currently employed widely in the unix community? What it does is help configure pre-processor options and arguments for make and ld, and all of the little things that are subtly different on various unix platforms. The way it works is to reap the results of a command or a test compile in each of the desired tests, and sets pre-processor definitions based on that result. It doesn't require any extra stuff to be resident on the target host, all of the autoconf stuff is done by the developer. It is very fast, a h**l of a lot faster than looking this stuff up then editing a makefile or header file. Do we use time.h or sys/time.h on your system? Can they be safely included together? Does your linker accept the -E option? Do you have getpeername? Does it live in libc or the socket library? Does signal return a void pointer? Does the keyword const actually work in your compiler? Things like that (these are examples, not stuff we need for xfractint) are what autoconf answers. Implementing it does not mean any changes to the existing code, except that it would include a file called config.h, and the #ifdefs placed where necessary to accomodate the various platforms. All of the other files (the configure script, and the templates) are separate files. To the user, it means that he/she doesn't need to know any of the arcane stuff of which we unix folks are so fond. Just type configure, make, and make install. I highly recommend this approach.... any comments? btw, I volunteer to create and maintain the configuration stuff, if we elect to do it. darryl Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael R. Ganss" Subject: Re: (fractdev) gui considerations Date: 20 May 1998 12:09:29 +0200 (MET DST) Hi, > I still have some reservations about Tcl/Tk ... it is an interpreted > language, and white space matters :( ... a good benchmark would be to obtain > the irc client called zircon to see what Tcl/Tk looks and feels like. There > are two versions of that program in the available package (I don't like the > client, btw, but it is a good representation of the kinds of things that Tcl > and Tk do). The first version is formatted like any other script, and runs > ok. The second version has most of the white space removed and is noticeably > faster. Of course, this obfuscates the code so badly that it is not > readable. Try it and see . Since 8.0 Tcl/Tk has an on-the-fly bytecode-compiler (similar to the Emacs lisp compiler, which is not on-the-fly, though). IMHO, gui speed today doesn't matter as much as it used to a couple of years ago (except for Microsoft applications gui complexity hasn't kept pace with processor speed increase), so that even with an interpreted language like Tcl guis can be fast if you keep the Tcl portion of the code to a minimum. > The pros: it is quite portable, easily customized, and it looks a lot like > Motif :) In fact, since 8.0 Tcl/Tk has "native" look-and-feel, which on Unix platforms means Motif. > > So... Tcl/Tk seems to be the best choice :) ... there are other choices, and > I have waited this long to make a recommendation of any one because I wanted > to see what the market would do with the new products. As I should have > guessed, they've been all but quashed. I don't want to start a long > discussion of the merits or possible futures of these things, but Open/GL > and even Motif may be dying. > Speaking of OpenGL, in terms of portability there is not only the gui issue but also the "drawing part" issue. Obviously you can't use Tk widgets like the canvas because most fractals are pixel oriented and invoking Tcl code for every pixel plot makes things slow. Maybe there are portable widgets which allow pixel plotting from the C level. Another option would be to use OpenGL, which despite its 3d orientedness should be quite suitable for this task. -- Michael R. Ganss Cooper: Look! Ducks! On a lake! Ahhh. rms@cs.tu-berlin.de http://www.cs.tu-berlin.de/~rms/AlmondBread/ Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael R. Ganss" Subject: Re: (fractdev) autoconf Date: 20 May 1998 12:29:09 +0200 (MET DST) Hi, > I highly recommend this approach.... any comments? btw, I volunteer to > create and maintain the configuration stuff, if we elect to do it. Autoconf is almost inevitable if you want portability. I'm no autoconf expert, but I know it can be a hellish task to maintain the myriad of ifdefs you get just because some buggy OS with 13 installations on the planet has printf(3) in sys/timezone.h or some sh.. like that. -- Michael R. Ganss Cooper: Look! Ducks! On a lake! Ahhh. rms@cs.tu-berlin.de http://www.cs.tu-berlin.de/~rms/AlmondBread/ Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tim Gilman Subject: Re: (fractdev) various sources for 19.61 p44 Date: 20 May 1998 10:42:01 -0700 >2. The xfractint and regular versions have absolutely identical source for >the files they share. Note to Tim Gilman - this might be impossible, but >this is a great goal. > >6. I haven't yet tried to make a float-only version of Xfractint. This is >probably just a matter of dumping the float-only source on top of the >Xfractint source and cleaning up the various integer stubs. If anyone wants >me to do this (Tim G?), let me know. Hey Tim, I don't mind the stubs. Any have XFract for HP-UX built? -= Tim Gilman t.gilman@apple.com tgilman@cats.ucsc.edu Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Osuch <73277.1432@compuserve.com> Subject: (fractdev) Mandelbrot engine Date: 20 May 1998 22:01:46 -0400 Back in January, Damien Jones wrote: >> Please add "M-set Pentium Optimization" to the list. It's about half done,in that the code is written and works outside of FractInt, but needs= to be tested and integrated into FractInt. << I've been working on this again with the assistance of Rees Acheson. Hav= e you made any progress with this? The test PAR I use started at 33.23 seconds with version 19.6 and is now down to 19.06 seconds. I'm sure you've noticed one of the problems with integrating optimized co= de into Fractint. When Fractint bails out, the last (x,y) pair has to be on= the FPU stack. Jonathan Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christian Strik" Subject: (fractdev) Fw: Test mail - ignore this Date: 20 May 1998 15:45:28 +0100 -----Original Message----- >> >>Dit is een testmailtje, aangezien mijn vorige vijf mailtjes >>nooit zijn opgenomen in de fractint lijst. - This is a test mail, for >>my last five mails have never been included in the fractint list - i'm >>checking if this list does work. >>Christian >> > > Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Peter Gavin" Subject: RE: (fractdev) Fw: Test mail - ignore this Date: 20 May 1998 23:58:56 -0400 Is this Latvian or something? :) (no offense if you are or it is :) ) Pete // >>Dit is een testmailtje, aangezien mijn vorige vijf mailtjes // >>nooit zijn opgenomen in de fractint lijst. Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christian Strik" Subject: Re: (fractdev) Fw: Test mail - ignore this Date: 21 May 1998 11:58:53 +0100 >Is this Latvian or something? :) (no offense if you are or it is :) ) > >Pete > > >// >>Dit is een testmailtje, aangezien mijn vorige vijf mailtjes >// >>nooit zijn opgenomen in de fractint lijst. Nope, it's Dutch. The mail is a rather standard mail; a long time ago i've written it in both dutch and english for the convenience of sending later test mails. I've only changed 'deze lijst' (this list) into 'de fractint lijst' (the fractint list). Christian Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kragen@pobox.com (Kragen) Subject: (fractdev) hello Date: 21 May 1998 11:08:15 -0400 (EDT) I'm new to fractdev. I'm Kragen Sitaker, long-time Fractint user. Kragen Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christian Strik" Subject: Re: (fractdev) hello Date: 21 May 1998 18:17:31 +0100 Kragen wrote: >I'm new to fractdev. I'm Kragen Sitaker, long-time Fractint user. > >Kragen Welcome Kragen. I was expecting you really (just because of the contents of your fractint messages) :-) Christian Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Christian Strik" Subject: Re: (fractdev) hello Date: 21 May 1998 18:17:31 +0100 Kragen wrote: >I'm new to fractdev. I'm Kragen Sitaker, long-time Fractint user. > >Kragen Welcome Kragen. I was expecting you really (just because of the contents of your fractint messages) :-) Christian Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Damien M. Jones" Subject: Re: (fractdev) Mandelbrot engine Date: 21 May 1998 12:50:43 -0500 Jonathan, - I've been working on this again with the assistance of Rees Acheson. Have - you made any progress with this? I have not had time to work on it. :( - The test PAR I use started at 33.23 seconds with version 19.6 and is now - down to 19.06 seconds. Yes, that's much improved, but it's a long way from what's possible. The biggest problem is not leaving the last (x,y) on the stack, but tying the code together with the periodicity checking and so on. Damien M. Jones \\ dmj@fractalus.com \\ http://www.icd.com/tsd/ (temporary sanity designs) \\ http://www.fractalus.com/ (fractals are my hobby) Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Osuch <73277.1432@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: (fractdev) Mandelbrot engine Date: 21 May 1998 18:01:23 -0400 Damien, >> The biggest problem is not leaving the last (x,y) on the stack, but tying the code together with the periodicity checking and so on. << Yes, but the two are related since periodicity requires the last (x,y) as= do the various outside=3D options. Jonathan Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Damien M. Jones" Subject: Re: (fractdev) Mandelbrot engine Date: 21 May 1998 18:09:46 -0500 Jonathan, - >> The biggest problem is not leaving the last (x,y) on the stack, but - tying the code together with the periodicity checking and so on. << - - Yes, but the two are related since periodicity requires the last (x,y) as - do the various outside= options. Ah, I see what you're getting at. Why not have two loops, one where periodicity checking is used, and another where it isn't? It was my understanding that FractInt enabled/disabled periodicity checking on a per-pixel basis, depending on whether the previous pixel was inside the set or not. It's been a loooong time since I looked at this code, so if my understanding is faulty, please let me know. Damien M. Jones \\ dmj@fractalus.com \\ http://www.icd.com/tsd/ (temporary sanity designs) \\ http://www.fractalus.com/ (fractals are my hobby) Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Osuch <73277.1432@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: (fractdev) Mandelbrot engine Date: 21 May 1998 21:32:40 -0400 Damien, >> Why not have two loops, one where periodicity checking is used, and another where it isn't? It was my understanding that FractInt enabled/disabled periodicity checking on a per-pixel basis, depending on whether the previous pixel was inside the set or not. << The loop without the periodicity checking would still need to have the (x,Y) values available when it bailed out. What Rees and I are working on now does have two loops. The loop was unrolled once to provide additional locations where the cmp/jmp combinati= on would cost zero clock cycles. This works great in Rees's code, but not s= o well in Fractint. We've both gained considerable insight into optimizing= for the pentium. Jonathan Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Damien M. Jones" Subject: Re: (fractdev) Mandelbrot engine Date: 22 May 1998 11:43:47 -0500 Jonathan, - What Rees and I are working on now does have two loops. The loop was - unrolled once to provide additional locations where the cmp/jmp - combination would cost zero clock cycles. This works great in Rees's - code, but not so well in Fractint. We've both gained considerable - insight into optimizing for the pentium. OK. You have seen Paul Hsieh's Pentium Optimization web page? It includes Agner Fog's Pentium optimization guide (a must-have document) as well as lots of examples of increasingly-optimized M-set loops. The fastest is 14 cycles per iteration (for Pentium) but my 15-cycle code, also on that page, runs faster on P-II systems than the 14-cycle code. I also have an unrolled 8x loop which averages less than 13 cycles per iteration. Reworking the iteration loop so that the final z is left on the stack is not a major problem; rearrange values when the point bails out, rather than try to force the FPU to be in that state all the time. Paul Hsieh's page is here: http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/9498/p5opt.html I can post the routines here directly if you like. Damien M. Jones \\ dmj@fractalus.com \\ http://www.icd.com/tsd/ (temporary sanity designs) \\ http://www.fractalus.com/ (fractals are my hobby) Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jonathan Osuch <73277.1432@compuserve.com> Subject: Re: (fractdev) Mandelbrot engine Date: 22 May 1998 22:55:13 -0400 Damien, >> You have seen Paul Hsieh's Pentium Optimization web page? It includes= Agner Fog's Pentium optimization guide (a must-have document) as well as lots of examples of increasingly-optimized M-set loops. The fastest is 1= 4 cycles per iteration (for Pentium) but my 15-cycle code, also on that pag= e, runs faster on P-II systems than the 14-cycle code. << Yes, I've seen that page. I have yet to find the code attributed to Fractint within the Fractint source code. OTOH, the version 19.6 code wasn't optimized for a pentium. >> Reworking the iteration loop so that the final z is left on the stack = is not a major problem; rearrange values when the point bails out, rather th= an try to force the FPU to be in that state all the time. << With the rearranging I did to incorporate Rees's code, it might be fairly= simple to drop in your code. You are aware, aren't you, that you are always checking the bailout value= for the previous iteration? Not that this matters in the grander scheme = of things. Except, of course, in Fractint. The Z value gets used for outside=3D options, and if it isn't done the same as in previous versions= we'll have people screaming about lack of backwards compatibility. The other problem is that the only place the check for periodicity can occur is in the general area of the cmp eax,edx. If more checks are adde= d in that area, additional clock cycles will be added. Possible solution to these (and other) problems would be to either have t= wo versions of the optimized p5 code, or to just revert back to the C code i= f any options are selected. Jonathan Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Damien M. Jones" Subject: Re: (fractdev) Mandelbrot engine Date: 22 May 1998 23:10:35 -0500 Jonathan, - With the rearranging I did to incorporate Rees's code, it might be fairly - simple to drop in your code. Whichever. I just get the feeling that because mandel is the default type in FractInt (not to mention being the granddaddy of fractals) that a lot of people will spend time messing with it; optimizing it is probably worthwhile. - You are aware, aren't you, that you are always checking the bailout value - for the previous iteration? Yep. :) As you say, it doesn't matter much in the grand scheme of things, but now I see what you mean about final z difficulties. If you don't mind sacrificing a cycle or two, you can shift the compare to a differentl location and perform the test sooner. - Possible solution to these (and other) problems would be to either have two - versions of the optimized p5 code, or to just revert back to the C code if - any options are selected. Sure, use a p5-optimized routine for when you don't need periodicity (or anything else) and use other routines (assembly or C) when those apply. Damien M. Jones \\ dmj@fractalus.com \\ http://www.icd.com/tsd/ (temporary sanity designs) \\ http://www.fractalus.com/ (fractals are my hobby) Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tim Gilman Subject: (fractdev) Profiling of XFract code Date: 29 May 1998 14:16:57 -0700 I've finished a first-pass profiling of XFract (19.6), and have created two text files of raw info. Here's a sample from the first file: >3d.c > extern int bad_value; > 3d.c, line 254: v[0] = bad_value; /* clipping will catch > 3d.c, line 255: v[1] = bad_value; /* so they won't plot > extern int bitshift; > 3d.c, line 269: int bitshift) > extern MATRIX m; > 3d.c, line 240: tmp[j] += m[3][j]; > extern int overflow; > 3d.c, line 374: overflow = 0; > 3d.c, line 391: return(overflow); > extern VECTOR view; > 3d.c, line 259: v[0] = (v[0]*view[2] - view[0]*v[2])/denom; > 3d.c, line 260: v[1] = (v[1]*view[2] - view[1]*v[2])/denom; >ant.c > extern SEGTYPE extraseg; > ant.c, line 369: extra = MK_FP(extraseg,0); > extern int helpmode; > ant.c, line 407: oldhelpmode = helpmode; > ant.c, line 453: helpmode = oldhelpmode; > extern int orbit_delay; > ant.c, line 411: wait = abs(orbit_delay); > extern double param[]; > ant.c, line 92: antwrap = ((param[4] == 0) ? 0 : 1); > ant.c, line 245: antwrap = ((param[4] == 0) ? 0 : 1); Here's a snippet from the second file: >extern int active_system; > cmdfiles.c, line 1241: if (active_system == 0) { > cmdfiles.c, line 2745: if (active_system == 0 /* DOS */ > encoder.c, line 563: && active_system == 0 /* and in > fractint.c, line 76: int active_system = 0; /* 0 for > framain2.c, line 272: save_system = active_system; /* > lorenz.c, line 1901: if(active_system == 0) { /* dos version > lorenz.c, line 1930: if(active_system == 0) { /* dos version > realdos.c, line 83: if (active_system == 0 /* DOS */ > realdos.c, line 187: if (active_system == 0 /* DOS */ >extern int adapter; > fractint.c, line 51: int adapter; /* Video Adapter > fractint.c, line 410: if ((adapter = > framain2.c, line 477: initmode = adapter; > loadfdos.c, line 200: initmode = adapter; > loadfile.c, line 303: initmode = adapter; /* use > unixscr.c, line 57: extern int adapter; > unixscr.c, line 413: adapter = 0; Each file is over a megabyte uncompressed, ~190K gzipped, and covers all the variables listed in 'externs.h'. You probably don't have a need for this type of thing, unless you're contemplating one of those horrible "massive restructurings". http://www.scruz.net/~tgilman/tim/macfract/versions/ functions.list.gz globals.list.gz Cheers! -= Tim Gilman t.gilman@apple.com tgilman@cats.ucsc.edu Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Irc User Account Subject: Re: (fractdev) Profiling of XFract code Date: 29 May 1998 19:36:11 -0700 Tim Gilman wrote: > I've finished a first-pass profiling of XFract (19.6), and have created > two text files of raw info. Here's a sample from the first file: Thanks Tim, I (for one) found it interesting.. but that's me :) I've about half finished testing the xfractint code under linux ix86 and dec alpha... no major problems so far ... if any of you have specific issues that you have seen, please point me in the right direction. This is a big project, and to test it regressively with all possible combinations is beyond my endurance . I have a preliminary configure script and supporting template files created, works well under the two platforms I have at hand. Other platforms may need some tweaking, I used the defaults listed in the current makefile where I could, and relied on my flawless memory for the rest. Soooo... I give you all a full money-back guarantee on it. Just in case, I will send these things to Tim W. to put up for testing and evaluation later in the week. Maybe this weekend if it keeps raining. Take care, and have fun! Darryl House Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tim Wegner" Subject: Re: (fractdev) Profiling of XFract code Date: 30 May 1998 17:44:14 -0600 > I've about half finished testing the xfractint code under linux ix86 and dec > alpha... no major problems so far ... if any of you have specific issues that > you have seen, please point me in the right direction. This is a big project, > and to test it regressively with all possible combinations is beyond my > endurance . The evolver mode doesn't work for me. From the main menu select the evolver mode, and turn it on my changing the top field to "yes". I get the default Mandelbrot in the center thumbnail, and a constant mutated image for all the others. It may be that the random numbers are not working. Robin Bussell and Jonathan Osuch are the authors. Robin, have you tried this yet under Linux? Tim Thanks for using Fractdev, The Fractint Developer's Discussion List Post Message: fractdev@lists.xmission.com Get Commands: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "help" Administrator: twegner@phoenix.net Unsubscribe: majordomo@lists.xmission.com "unsubscribe fractdev"