From: BaronetCorvu@cs.com
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Book Covers (was Alternative Authors)
Date: 06 Aug 2000 15:04:42 EDT

> > I found Cook from the reverse of this. I've been pushing books for a few 
> years
>  > and a customer politely listened to my canned diatribe, then said, 
"Well, 
> have
>  > you read Cook?" He puts Black Company in my hands. Terrible terrible 
cover.
> 
>  > The rest of the series is even worse.

The funny part is that Glen first saw Keith Berdak's artwork at a convention, 
and loved it and asked him to do the covers, because he felt that they 
correctly captured the feel of the series.  Don't know that I agree with that 
sentiment....

MWS



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sam Felice" <sfelice@getty.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL  no spoilers
Date: 05 Aug 2000 16:59:04 -0700

I just want to say:  Why don't any book stores in LA seem to have this =
book yet?!  I thought "I'll just wait 'till it hits the bookstores instead =
of ordering it from Amazon.  It'll get to the stores about the same time =
Amazon could get it to me, and with shipping, it'll probably cost near the =
same.  I'll support my local bookstore".  But I'm now finished with all my =
reading that I was going to do up until now, and I WANT THIS BOOK!.

Sorry.  Just had to vent. :)


>>> childsl@earthlink.net 08/05/00 00:14 AM >>>
I loved it.  Old scores settled.  Deserving butts kicked.  Numerous plot =
lines
resolved.  Some welcome plot twists.  I loved it.

It will be tough to write a sequel in the immediate time frame that =
follows.
Easier to find rabbits in hats than villians in the remaining haystack.

Lee Childs

Eric Herrmann wrote:

> > Is anyone else who has finished SL, just sitting around wondering what =
to do
> > next?
>
> I've exchanged reviews with several people already. So I know there are
> people who have finished. I don't know why they haven't posted to the =
list
> yet.
>
> No need to be timid people. Just put SL in the subject and it is assumed =
to
> be a spoiler. Just keep the rest of the subject clean and you can put
> anything in the body.
>
> Come on. I've been waiting 4 months to talk about this book.
> I'm giving it till the weekend and then I'm spoiling everything. <g>
>
> Eric Herrmann
> <shpshftr@xmission.com>








-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "anthony palermo" <thepongo@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Alternative Authors (was Yesssssssssss!)
Date: 05 Aug 2000 16:03:59 -0500

Very well said, Lich.


Tony
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 10:18 PM


> That's too bad Christopher.  Cook is definitely the best in the genre, but
> there is other fantasy out there that is worth your time and money to
read.
> (Not much, but some.)
>
> I ran into a kid once who I discussed a couple fantasy books with.  As
> usual, I tried to introduce him to Cook.  He responded, " I only read
> TSR/Forgotten Realms books."  I didn't know whether to laugh at him or cry
> at his ignorance.  Ultimately, I settled for my default reaction of
ignoring
> him.
>
> The moral of this story is, no you will never find another writer out
there
> who writes just the way Cook does at the same level of quality.  However,
if
> you try some others besides what you've already experienced (Cook), I
> guarantee that you will find a couple authors who have their own style
(some
> similar, some dissimilar) that after reading, you will discover that you
> enjoy.
>
> Now how do I get down from this Soapbox. . .
>
>
> >
> > Or, just say I'm in the minority here, that this really is what people
> > want to talk about now that SL is out, and I'll shut the yap on my
> > face and we can go on talking about books I never intend to read.
> >
> > christopher....
> >
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: CookReader@aol.com
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Don't They Proofread? (semi-spoiler?)
Date: 06 Aug 2000 19:47:16 EDT


In a message dated 8/4/00 5:43:29 PM, lophan@yahoo.com writes:

>On a similar note, am I nuts or are the characters of Widowmaker and
>Lifetaker reversed?  I thought Croaker was Widowmaker and Lady was
>Lifetaker, but early on in SL the roles a reversed?

They must have changed, since when Croaker comes at Mogaba all decked
out in fire and fury Mogaba says, "Lady?"

Unless Lady's not the knock-out she usually described as and Croaker has
a figure he's been hiding, I think it must be the fact that they swapped.
Not sure why.

christopher....




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: CookReader@aol.com
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL (SPOILERS)
Date: 06 Aug 2000 19:47:19 EDT


In a message dated 8/6/00 3:47:29 PM, dfgarcia@stic.net writes:

>    I finished the book yesterday. While I'll agree with you all on some
>things (happy to have Croaker back behind the pen), I don't know if this
>book was the masterpiece some think. I love Glen Cook. I'll buy whatever
>he puts out next. However, I think this episode was missing something.
>Don't get me wrong, I liked the plot twists and I loved how the series
>was resolved. I just felt like the climax to the finale was hurried. All
>of a sudden everyone starts dying. Not much detail is given, they're just
>toast.

I had this problem. I like this book beter than Water Sleeps, but not as well
as Bleak Seasons. Go figure.

There was a line in this one that went something like, "This girl who had been
with him for less than a year felt more like a daughter to him than the real
daughter in the next room," and I remember thinking, "A year has gone by?"
Time was so compressed here that it felt like they did the whole book in a
weekend. And the battles kept bothering me. They set out with what, 8,000
men? Mogaba on a bad day could take care of that many. Okay, so his army
was only armed with hammers and ice picks, but still.

And the way they kept bopping back and forth between Taglios and Khatovar
and the Unnamed Fortress. Croaker, as an old man, covered more miles in this
book than in all the others. I kept expecting him to make a trip to Charm.

And the deaths were annoying, amazing, disturbing, and aftger a while, 
numbing.
Otto and Hagop in the first line as throw-away deaths? After a certain point I
didn't want to get attached to any new characters since I didn't know if they
would be around in two pages or not, and I wanted to distance myself from
any characters I did care about because I saw the writing on the wall, This, 
to
me, wass why Sleepy's death didn't upset me. By that time I was wondering why
she hadn't died yet.

Croaker behind the pen again was fun and fine, but he was a dirty old man,
falling apart, pompus and fat. Not exactly the guy I grew to like in past 
books.
And characters I really did like, such a Murgen weren't in the book enough.

And we got the politics of two worlds, but not enough time on either t sort
out what was important. Tobo bugged me, since he's kind of like a traveling
Plain of Fear. Now there's a fight for you, Tobo against Father Tree. How
many Menhirs does it take to kill a giant shadow duck?

I didn't care for the redemption of Mogaba at all, educate a black man and
watch him realize the errors of his ways, hell, he'll even start keeping "The
Books of Mogaba." I liked the fact that this bastard could be munching on
long pig knowing his way was best. This doubting touchy-feely guy wasn't
Mogaba. And doesn't he ever learn? How's he end his life? Betraying another
employer. Oh yeah, but he was doing it for his new found principles.

Cook seemed to take some easy paths with this book, and killing characters
is an easy way to tug the heart strings. Goblin coming back as a bad guy
didn't even throw me. In Cook's world dying and coming back seems to be
the one unforgivable sin. Raven did it and look how he turned out, the Taken
turned it into an art-form, so of course Goblin will be Kina's toy.

I was hoping that the Lance of Pasion would have quickened Kina. Stabbing
a god with another god's pizzle, sounds like epic legend to me.

Lady was sickening in this book. I wanted someone to put her out just to
end the simpering.

Naryan and Booboo have never been anything other than professional
prisioners. The most upsetting part of Booboo's death to me was that
she dies a virgin.

So what did kill that child wizard and infect Soulcatcher?

Did like Arkana and her sister, but they were nearly interchangable. I kept
having to think, "Oh, she was the one who was raped", a fact that Cook
brings up  nearly everytime she's mentioned.

The capes were right out of the movie Spawn. The posts were just plain
confusing. Like witches on explosive brooms.

This book is not a stand-alone. Can't imagine starting here.

Well, I'm done dumping for now, just wanted to let you know that you weren't
alone. I think this book rocks, don't get me wrong, Cook's worst is still good
and this is far from bad. I loved it, it just does have some weaknesses.

christopher....




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jordan Raney" <jrraney@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL:spoilers don't read unless you are finished
Date: 05 Aug 2000 19:33:55 -0500

Spoilers of course:



----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 11:48 AM


> Spoiler warning! Turn back know oh faint of heart!
>
> > I'm ready to discuss.  Finished this morning.  I have
> > to say that the ending was quite a suprise.
> >
> > As the grim reaper cut through the company, I became
> > concerned that there wouldn't be enough characters to
> > continue the series.  I was real concerned that the
> > death of Croaker, Glen's symbolic self in the series,
> > would foretell the end of the series.
> >
> > However, as it stands, Glen has quite a bit of grist
> > for the mill.  Croaker-God guardian of the plain with
> > numerous worlds unexplored.  Lady, juiced up and ready
> > to go.  Soulcatcher and Booboo on ice.  A freezer full
> > of old, nasty personages of unknown origin, attitudes,
> > talents and trouble.  Bad-ass, brain-damaged Tobo, who
> > is more interesting than wonderboy-Tobo.  Giggling hot
> > blond mages. Suvrin as a new Captain of a company of
> > kick-ass veteran soldiers.
> >
> > I really hated to see the old folk go (Sleepy! you had
> > so much potential!).  I'm very glad that Glen appears
> > to have interest in continuing the series.  Had
> > Croaker taken a dirt nap I was pretty sure that the
> > series was dead.  However, as things are now there
> > seems to be a real potential for a continuation of the
> > series.
> >
> > If Glen ever becomes interested in pursuing other
> > works, I'd love to see a collected works where other
> > writers would be allowed to write Black Company short
> > stories.  Each would begin with "in those days the
> > Company was in the service of ...."
>
> Croaker is dead. Stick a fork in it, this series is done.
>
> Glen symbolicly killed his symbolic self. No, he apparently couldn't
> physically kill Croaker, so he found a compromise. Croaker's body runs off
> to enjoy the physical pleasures so long denied Shivetya. And Croaker gets
to
> explore history and be the planet's resident voyeur. Not to mention be
> Lady's source of power.
>
> But then again no one knows the exchange happened beyond the Voroshk
twins.
>
> Everything that was black is now white. Mogaba isn't evil he just has
honor.
> Soulcatcher is the misunderstood big sister who really loves her younger
> sibling. Kina is a good goddess. Seems everyone had to be redeemed in the
> end.
>
> And what was the answer to Croaker's question on page 482? And why was it
so
> critical? And when did Croaker first broach the deal with Shivetya?
>
> Eric Herrmann
> <shpshftr@xmission.com>


About "the big question" -

I don't know exactly why it is such a big deal, but it has to be assumed
that if shivetya would have given up his role without someone to take his
place that the plain would have ceased to exist or at least lost its
functionality.  Evidently that is why the Nef were so upset.  At least from
what I could gather, it was because of the answer shivetya would have given
to that question that Croaker decided he had to take that role.

Croaker wanted to keep his promise to shivetya and maybe this was the only
way to do it and to keep the plain intact.  Also the incentives for croaker
weren't so bad....




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "JM Rhodes" <jammers@netzero.net>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Alternative Authors (was Yesssssssssss!)
Date: 05 Aug 2000 12:44:42 -0700

Personally, I don't mind the recommendations... even though the same authors
come up every time, most of which I am already familiar with.  But that's
because I've been reading SF/F for 25 years, and not much gets past me.

However, not everyone shares my experience, and I am more than happy to
offer a suggestion or two.  Add to that the fact that every time the topic
comes up, there are always a few recommendations that are new, and a couple
of those have even led me toward new books.

Since Mr. Cook doesn't seem capable of keeping up with my reading pace of
15 - 20 books a year, a recommended reading list might not be a bad idea...
then limit new recommendations to what isn't already on the list.

Or save everyone a lot of work, and let the thread come up a couple of times
a year.... like any other thread, if you don't need it, don't read it.
There is no law saying you have to read every message posted to the list.  I
have no problem reading headers and deciding what I'm interested in or not.

but maybe that's just me.

John

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of
CookReader@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 8:42 AM



In a message dated 8/5/00 10:22:24 AM, lich@mtco.com writes:

>That's too bad Christopher.  Cook is definitely the best in the genre,
>but there is other fantasy out there that is worth your time and money to
read.
>(Not much, but some.)

Don't get me wrong here, I love other authors. I have a collection of about
3,000 books, 1,500 of which are SF. Cook's not even my favorite author,
but I'm not on this list to discuss those authors. I guess maybe because my
"to read" pile is larger than what I can read in the next 5 years (assuming
I never bought a new book, which is a bad assumption) I don't need the
suggestions.

I live for books. After basic bills they are my biggest expense. I tithe to
the
god of books. I read 250 pages a day. I believe in libraries and hope to own
one
someday.

I guess I was just trying to remind people this is a Cook list, and not a
Brust
or Moorcock list. Both these authors are great, just I'd rather people made
references to Cook when it comes to mentioning them. It wouldn't be hard
to discuss the use of unreliable narrators in Cook and Brust or the use
of anti-heroes in all three (a convention Moorcock pioneered).

But again, if I'm in the minority, let the recommends flow.

christopher....






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jordan Raney" <jrraney@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL (SPOILERS)
Date: 06 Aug 2000 16:05:44 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Don wrote:
"Survin is just ...well.. a guy. There was nothing endearing about the =
guy. When you first meet the Captain in 'The Black Company' he has his =
feet on a desk sleeping and he's irked that Croaker doesn't follow the =
chain of command. There was something that sucked you in to the =
Brotherhood. This is just one instance I'm choosing to mention. I guess =
what I'm trying to say is... I just never connected to any of the =
characters. What I loved about Cook to begin with was his characters."

I know exactly what you mean, but at least to me, your complaint seems =
more valid for Water Sleeps than for SL.  That's the reason I liked SL =
so much: because now Croaker, an actual interesting character, is back =
as annalist.  I know that Water Sleeps had One Eye and Goblin, but I =
don't even consider that really, because they were portrayed as being so =
old, useless, and close to death that they never had much of an active =
role.  They didn't even squabble all that much!  I never liked the =
sleepy character so that's probably why I disliked water sleeps so much =
more than SL.

Don wrote:   =20
    "Man, I feel like a heretic. Somebody take me to the cliffside and =
toss me off. Blasphemy! The spark in the books is just dimmer now. I =
though it had come back with Water Sleeps. I felt it there, but not in =
this one. Croaker's 'daughters' were nice but they don't replace Hagop, =
Elmo, Silent, Raven, The Old Man (original), and certainly not One Eye =
or Goblin."

Here's where I have to disagree a little.  I do agree that the "spark" =
has been getting dimmer in the books, but for me SL brought it back (not =
to the degree the first 3 books had, but definitely moreso than the four =
through eight).  I did enjoy Water Sleeps, but only because of the =
questions that were answered (and seeing some characters you can =
actually care about getting rescued from their slumber), not because of =
its annalist and main characters.  I DO agree with you that no =
characters in SL (no characters in ANY of the Books of the South or =
Glittering Stone) compared with your list of "Elmo, Silent, Raven, The =
Old Man (original), and One Eye or Goblin.

Don wrote:
    "I'm going to read the book again... later. I might like it the =
second time better. Anyway, sorry about the  length. Eric I haven't =
heard if you like the book or not. Let us know."

Don't worry about the length of the post...I'm surprised there hasn't =
been more discussion on SL thus far.  I read through it quite quickly =
and figured by the time I would finish I'd have an inbox full of SL =
messages....

I'm waiting,

JR

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Don wrote:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"Survin is just ...well.. a guy. There =
was nothing=20
endearing about the guy. When you first meet the Captain in 'The Black =
Company'=20
he has his feet on a desk sleeping and he's irked that Croaker doesn't =
follow=20
the chain of command. There was something that sucked you in to the =
Brotherhood.=20
This is just one instance I'm choosing to mention. I guess what I'm =
trying to=20
say is... I just never connected to any of the characters. What I loved =
about=20
Cook to begin with was his characters."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I know exactly what you mean, but at least to me, =
your=20
complaint seems more valid for Water Sleeps than for SL.&nbsp; That's =
the reason=20
I liked SL so much: because now Croaker, an actual interesting =
character, is=20
back as annalist.&nbsp; I know that Water Sleeps had One Eye and Goblin, =
but I=20
don't even consider that really, because they were portrayed as being so =
old,=20
useless, and close to death that they never had much of an active =
role.&nbsp;=20
They didn't even squabble all that much!&nbsp; I never liked the sleepy=20
character so that's probably why I disliked water sleeps so much more =
than=20
SL.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Don&nbsp;wrote:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "Man, I feel like a =
heretic.=20
Somebody take me to the cliffside and toss me off. Blasphemy! The spark =
in the=20
books is just dimmer now. I though it had come back with Water Sleeps. I =
felt it=20
there, but not in this one. Croaker's 'daughters' were nice but they =
don't=20
replace Hagop, Elmo, Silent, Raven, The Old Man (original), and =
certainly not=20
One Eye or Goblin."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Here's where I have to disagree a little.&nbsp; I do =
agree=20
that the "spark" has been getting dimmer in the books, but for me SL =
brought it=20
back (not to the degree the first 3 books had, but definitely moreso =
than the=20
four through eight).&nbsp; I did enjoy Water Sleeps, but only because of =
the=20
questions that were answered (and seeing some characters you can =
actually care=20
about getting rescued from their slumber), not because of its annalist =
and main=20
characters.&nbsp; I DO agree with you that no characters in SL (no =
characters in=20
ANY of the Books of the South or Glittering Stone) compared with your =
list of=20
"Elmo, Silent, Raven, The Old Man (original), and One Eye or=20
Goblin.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Don wrote:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; "I'm going to read =
the book=20
again... later. I might like it the second time better. Anyway, sorry =
about=20
the&nbsp; length. Eric I haven't heard if you like the book or not. Let =
us=20
know."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Don't worry about the length of the post...I'm =
surprised there=20
hasn't been more discussion on SL thus far.&nbsp; I read through it =
quite=20
quickly and figured by the time I would finish I'd have an inbox full of =
SL=20
messages....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I'm waiting,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>JR</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "JM Rhodes" <jammers@netzero.net>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) SL  no spoilers
Date: 05 Aug 2000 17:14:34 -0700

I noticed the same thing... LA is Cookless!  I have a copy on order at the
Barnes & Noble close to my home, but still nothing... at this point, I'll
buy the first copy that shows up anywhere in the general vicinity...

John

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Sam Felice
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 4:59 PM


I just want to say:  Why don't any book stores in LA seem to have this book
yet?!  I thought "I'll just wait 'till it hits the bookstores instead of
ordering it from Amazon.  It'll get to the stores about the same time Amazon
could get it to me, and with shipping, it'll probably cost near the same.
I'll support my local bookstore".  But I'm now finished with all my reading
that I was going to do up until now, and I WANT THIS BOOK!.

Sorry.  Just had to vent. :)


>>> childsl@earthlink.net 08/05/00 00:14 AM >>>
I loved it.  Old scores settled.  Deserving butts kicked.  Numerous plot
lines
resolved.  Some welcome plot twists.  I loved it.

It will be tough to write a sequel in the immediate time frame that follows.
Easier to find rabbits in hats than villians in the remaining haystack.

Lee Childs

Eric Herrmann wrote:

> > Is anyone else who has finished SL, just sitting around wondering what
to do
> > next?
>
> I've exchanged reviews with several people already. So I know there are
> people who have finished. I don't know why they haven't posted to the list
> yet.
>
> No need to be timid people. Just put SL in the subject and it is assumed
to
> be a spoiler. Just keep the rest of the subject clean and you can put
> anything in the body.
>
> Come on. I've been waiting 4 months to talk about this book.
> I'm giving it till the weekend and then I'm spoiling everything. <g>
>
> Eric Herrmann
> <shpshftr@xmission.com>










-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: CookReader@aol.com
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL  no spoilers
Date: 05 Aug 2000 23:22:47 EDT


In a message dated 8/5/00 7:20:37 PM, jammers@netzero.net writes:

>I noticed the same thing... LA is Cookless!  I have a copy on order at
>the Barnes & Noble close to my home, but still nothing... at this point, I'll
>buy the first copy that shows up anywhere in the general vicinity...

Just have to say that this amuses me highly. I live in the middle of Iowa.
A place where I have to drive an hour to see a Woody Allen movie (the
one week it plays in the state). I had to go to Minneapolis to see Blair
Witch (to be fair this was in limited release at the time). American
Beauty was second run by the time I saw it. Hell, somewhere in Iowa
Star Wars is probably playing for the first time (and I don't mean the
special edition).

This surprises me, course I guess we're talking Cook and not Harry
Potter.

Anyway, I've had my copy almost a week. Maybe you should move to
podunk and you could get a copy.

christopher....



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Sam Roberts <Sam.Roberts@apollogrp.edu>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Alternative Authors (was Yesssssssssss!)
Date: 05 Aug 2000 15:10:25 -0700 

I think the point was (and please excuse me if I'm misinterpreting) that the
kid refused to consider ANY authors if they weren't TSR books.  That's the
truly sad thing, as if TSR was the only producer of quality or interesting
fantasy.  Hopefully it's just a phase and he'll grow out of it.  :-}

Sam

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 3:07 PM


 I don't think you're being fair to TSR fans.  I tend to read anything that
catches my interest and at times that has been books by Salvatore, Weis &
Hickman.  I know a few people whose reading material is almost entirely TSR
and at first I thought they were simply restricting themselves but I've
learned over time that they prefer TSR because they want to read about a
world that becomes VERY detailed.  It's a personal choice and doesn't
reflect ignorance.  Just because YOU think that Cook is the greatest thing
since sliced bread (and so do I for that matter..) doesn't mean everyone
else has to.

Darin
 
--

>
>I ran into a kid once who I discussed a couple fantasy books with.  As
>usual, I tried to introduce him to Cook.  He responded, " I only read
>TSR/Forgotten Realms books."  I didn't know whether to laugh at him or cry
>at his ignorance.  Ultimately, I settled for my default reaction of
ignoring
>him.
>
>


Send your favorite photo with any online greeting!
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lee Childs <childsl@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL  no spoilers
Date: 05 Aug 2000 20:50:04 -0700


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John,
    I got my copy from Barnes and Noble Aug 1st as a special order.  I learned
the hard way that when Barnes and Noble does a special order, they have to put a
'hold' on books not yet in print.  My Soldiers Live order fell out of the system
for that reason.  I had to have them reinput it.
    The Barnes and Noble sales help are somewhat better able to handle this kind
of order because they had similar problems with the advance orders of Harry
Potter.
    Check that status of your order.  Go in person and make sure you see them
personally check the computer.  Their poor training was a dissapointment to me
but I did get results in the end.
Lee Childs

JM Rhodes wrote:

> I noticed the same thing... LA is Cookless!  I have a copy on order at the
> Barnes & Noble close to my home, but still nothing... at this point, I'll
> buy the first copy that shows up anywhere in the general vicinity...
>
> John
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Sam Felice
> Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 4:59 PM
> To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL no spoilers
>
> I just want to say:  Why don't any book stores in LA seem to have this book
> yet?!  I thought "I'll just wait 'till it hits the bookstores instead of
> ordering it from Amazon.  It'll get to the stores about the same time Amazon
> could get it to me, and with shipping, it'll probably cost near the same.
> I'll support my local bookstore".  But I'm now finished with all my reading
> that I was going to do up until now, and I WANT THIS BOOK!.
>
> Sorry.  Just had to vent. :)
>
> >>> childsl@earthlink.net 08/05/00 00:14 AM >>>
> I loved it.  Old scores settled.  Deserving butts kicked.  Numerous plot
> lines
> resolved.  Some welcome plot twists.  I loved it.
>
> It will be tough to write a sequel in the immediate time frame that follows.
> Easier to find rabbits in hats than villians in the remaining haystack.
>
> Lee Childs
>
> Eric Herrmann wrote:
>
> > > Is anyone else who has finished SL, just sitting around wondering what
> to do
> > > next?
> >
> > I've exchanged reviews with several people already. So I know there are
> > people who have finished. I don't know why they haven't posted to the list
> > yet.
> >
> > No need to be timid people. Just put SL in the subject and it is assumed
> to
> > be a spoiler. Just keep the rest of the subject clean and you can put
> > anything in the body.
> >
> > Come on. I've been waiting 4 months to talk about this book.
> > I'm giving it till the weekend and then I'm spoiling everything. <g>
> >
> > Eric Herrmann
> > <shpshftr@xmission.com>



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<HTML>
John,
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I got my copy from Barnes and Noble Aug 1st as a
special order.&nbsp; I learned the hard way that when Barnes and Noble
does a special order, they have to put a 'hold' on books not yet in print.&nbsp;
My <U>Soldiers Live</U> order fell out of the system for that reason.&nbsp;
I had to have them reinput it.
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The Barnes and Noble sales help are somewhat better
able to handle this kind of order because they had similar problems with
the advance orders of Harry Potter.
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Check that status of your order.&nbsp; Go in person
and make sure you see them personally check the computer.&nbsp; Their poor
training was a dissapointment to me but I did get results in the end.
<BR>Lee Childs

<P>JM Rhodes wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>I noticed the same thing... LA is Cookless!&nbsp;
I have a copy on order at the
<BR>Barnes &amp; Noble close to my home, but still nothing... at this point,
I'll
<BR>buy the first copy that shows up anywhere in the general vicinity...

<P>John

<P>-----Original Message-----
<BR>From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
<BR>[<A HREF="mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com">mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com</A>]On
Behalf Of Sam Felice
<BR>Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 4:59 PM
<BR>To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
<BR>Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL no spoilers

<P>I just want to say:&nbsp; Why don't any book stores in LA seem to have
this book
<BR>yet?!&nbsp; I thought "I'll just wait 'till it hits the bookstores
instead of
<BR>ordering it from Amazon.&nbsp; It'll get to the stores about the same
time Amazon
<BR>could get it to me, and with shipping, it'll probably cost near the
same.
<BR>I'll support my local bookstore".&nbsp; But I'm now finished with all
my reading
<BR>that I was going to do up until now, and I WANT THIS BOOK!.

<P>Sorry.&nbsp; Just had to vent. :)

<P>>>> childsl@earthlink.net 08/05/00 00:14 AM >>>
<BR>I loved it.&nbsp; Old scores settled.&nbsp; Deserving butts kicked.&nbsp;
Numerous plot
<BR>lines
<BR>resolved.&nbsp; Some welcome plot twists.&nbsp; I loved it.

<P>It will be tough to write a sequel in the immediate time frame that
follows.
<BR>Easier to find rabbits in hats than villians in the remaining haystack.

<P>Lee Childs

<P>Eric Herrmann wrote:

<P>> > Is anyone else who has finished SL, just sitting around wondering
what
<BR>to do
<BR>> > next?
<BR>>
<BR>> I've exchanged reviews with several people already. So I know there
are
<BR>> people who have finished. I don't know why they haven't posted to
the list
<BR>> yet.
<BR>>
<BR>> No need to be timid people. Just put SL in the subject and it is
assumed
<BR>to
<BR>> be a spoiler. Just keep the rest of the subject clean and you can
put
<BR>> anything in the body.
<BR>>
<BR>> Come on. I've been waiting 4 months to talk about this book.
<BR>> I'm giving it till the weekend and then I'm spoiling everything.
&lt;g>
<BR>>
<BR>> Eric Herrmann
<BR>> &lt;shpshftr@xmission.com></BLOCKQUOTE>
&nbsp;</HTML>

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From: Eric Herrmann <shpshftr@xmission.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL (SPOILERS)
Date: 06 Aug 2000 18:36:23 -0600

> I'm going to read the book again... later. I might like it the second time
> better. Anyway, sorry about the  length. Eric I haven't heard if you like the
> book or not. Let us know.

To review,

In 311 pages of Shadow Games (Taglios 101), The Black Company comes half-way
(or more) across the world to Taglios. From Taglios they battle at Ghoja
Crossing and take Dejagore only to "lose" Dejagore and Croaker in the end.

In 346 pages of Dreams of Steel (Deceiver Cult 101), From Taglios Lady
fights its way back to Dejagore and liberates Dejagore. Croaker frees
himself from Soulcathcer and Booboo is kidnapped.

In 316 pages of Bleak Seasons (Nyueng Bao 101), From Taglios we relive the
siege and liberation of Dejagore. Did anything else happen?

In 470 pages of She Is the Darkness (Shadar? 101), From Taglios Croaker and
Lady fight down to the Glittering Plain only to get caught by Soulcatcher.

In 470 pages of Water Sleeps (Gunni 101), From Taglios Sleepy fights down to
the Glittering Plain to rescue Lady and Croaker and crosses over to The Land
of Unknown Shadows.

In 496 pages of Soldiers Live (Voroshk 101), From The Land of Unknown
Shadows Sleepy fights up to liberate Taglios.

Total = 2409 pages. (The Books of the North 955 pages)

I didn't particularly like the Glittering Stone books at all. But I suppose
that is because I was reading them expecting something different and it took
so very long for them to be published.

I expected a nice tight run to Khatavor to find out the Why of the Black
Company. Shadow Games would have gotten us to Dejagore, Dreams of Steel to
Overlook, and Glittering Stone to Khatavor and the death of Kina. Done in a
1000 pages.

I think the real story would have better if it had been presented as two
trilogies and lost about 400 pages. The first trilogy handling the Shadow
Masters and the second trilogy handling Khatavor and Kina.

Reading them thinking that Khatavor was the destination and then not getting
there each time and starting each book at square one back in Taglios was an
exercise in frustration for 10 years. I got really tired of Taglios.

In reality, Khatavor meant very little to nothing. The real story is Kina
and the half dozen perspectives or mythologies surrounding her.

What is the truth about Kina? What is the truth about the Black Company?
These questions are each answered differently by each book. Somewhere in
each book someone explains Kina and the Black Company which mostly
contradicts all the other books.

Knowing now that the story really revolves around the battle of wits between
Kina and Shivetya and not Khatavor, I think in rereading them I'll enjoy
them more as I look for the clues of this struggle.

The Books of the South and Glittering Stone are not like the Books of the
North. They are much more like Dread Empire. Dread Empire is world building
by retelling the same event from all the different perspectives.

It took 2500 pages to explain Kina and the why of war and death in the
South. Perhaps if Glen had the 7 more books of Dread Empire he intended we'd
understand the Fates and the Norns.

So did I answer the question? Probably not.

I didn't find the ending satisfying. I didn't like how the characters kept
dieing. I didn't like how Khatavor was handled. Croaker was missing that
spark. Lady and Soulcatcher were non-existant. Croaker was the only
three-dimensional character, everyone else was flat. There wasn't a good
climax. The book carried on in a monotonous, unemotional style.

I liked the book in that it is done, the loose ends are mostly tied, and
most questions are answered.

I reserve the right to change my opinions and I eagerly await something new.

Eric Herrmann
<shpshftr@xmission.com>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David George" <dsgeorge@mindspring.com>
Subject: (glencook-fans) SL Spoilers, questions answered maybe, questions asked
Date: 05 Aug 2000 21:18:44 -0500

Snipped here since the messages are getting long.

Jordan Raney asked:

> I don't quite understand that whole "barrier" at the bottom of the
nameless fortress, leading to kina's lair.  How come
>Blade couldn't get through it after trying so long, and then Sleepy easily
walked through?

I think Sleepy walked through easily because Kina was ready to release the
Goblin creature into their midst at that point.  But not before.  So the
barrier was up, then it was down and they all passed through.

>Also, did it ever explain what happened to Sahra?  It seemed like she was
just not there, and we never got a reason
>why or where she went.

It never did.  We are to assume she went off somewhere and died, I guess.
Maybe she spirit walked into the ether so she'd be ready to hound Tobo into
good behavior when the time came.  Left her body behind for good.

As to the "easy" deaths, this is something Cook has done before, in other
books, and I mentioned in a different post how much like Dread Empire some
of these battles were.  It is good and it is bad, in my opinion.  Good
because the reader can't count on anything.  No guarantees, just like life,
it builds suspense.  Bad because there were so many bad pennies that kept
turning up again and again since the company came south of the sea of
torrents.  We started to think no one could get snuffed.  Surprise!

I agree with you about this book being great, though.  It was great to have
Croaker as annalist, although I like the other annalists, Croaker is just a
great voice.  I could not disagree more with your dismissal of Sleepy as
boring, though.

But now that I'm thinking about this, does Croaker get to be Shivetya
forever or only as long as his (Croaker's) human body remains alive?  "So
Shivetya got to become a mortal for as long as Croaker's body would last and
Croaker got to be a big, old, wise, sea dragon swimming all around in the
ocean of history." (p.495).  You can read that either way, I guess, and it
seems sort of nitpicky now that I look at it.  I'm sort of assuming that
once it got oriented, Croaker's body (driven by Shivetya) lit out for parts
unknown.  At the author's convenience, should the story pick up again,
Croaker/Shivetya will either be there, floating in history and serving as a
magical Duracell for Lady, or he will have gone on.

DG




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David George" <dsgeorge@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL:spoilers don't read unless you are finished
Date: 05 Aug 2000 20:48:33 -0500

If you have not read The Dread Empire novels, then you probably have not
seen Glen Cook clean house.  The battles in Soldiers Live remind me a lot of
the battles in Dread Empire: setup, battle offered, maneuver, then
eventually chaos and a real winnowing of the ranks.

I'm sitting here trying to remember how people died in the whole BC series
and even at Charm, the big blowout, the company tends to pull through pretty
well, at least in terms of named, core cast.  Juniper is the next big deal,
where named characters get cut down.  Then Barrowlands.  But the way that he
deals with folks in SL is more like the Dread Empire to me.

The ending was a surprise.  Especially once Taglios falls and Mogaba is gone
and Booboo has been captured.  I'm sitting there saying: now what?  But I
was overall pretty happy with it.  Can't think of any loose ends going into
Glittering Stone that were not wrapped up completely.  Except Catcher, but
clearly Cook has a soft spot for her.  As do I.  Good villains are hard to
find.

And there are enough threads out there to spin new tales from, if Cook
should succumb to temptation.  I'm speaking monetarily, here, not
necessarily artistically.  I'll keep reading as long as he keeps writing
this good, whatever he cares to turn his hand to.  I think the market for
more BC is probably not tapped yet.

Who else came out of this like Mogaba at least a little more?  Sure, he's a
scumbag, but he played every trick he could and was a worthy foe, up to the
end.  I don't think his sense of honor ever made up for the betrayals, but
he showed the regrets and the glimmer of good that really makes for a good
Glen Cook villain.

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 1:24 AM


> Spoiler warning! Turn back know oh faint of heart!
>
>
> Eric,
>
> I'm ready to discuss.  Finished this morning.  I have
> to say that the ending was quite a suprise.
>
> As the grim reaper cut through the company, I became
> concerned that there wouldn't be enough characters to
> continue the series.  I was real concerned that the
> death of Croaker, Glen's symbolic self in the series,
> would foretell the end of the series.
>
> However, as it stands, Glen has quite a bit of grist
> for the mill.  Croaker-God guardian of the plain with
> numerous worlds unexplored.  Lady, juiced up and ready
> to go.  Soulcatcher and Booboo on ice.  A freezer full
> of old, nasty personages of unknown origin, attitudes,
> talents and trouble.  Bad-ass, brain-damaged Tobo, who
> is more interesting than wonderboy-Tobo.  Giggling hot
> blond mages. Suvrin as a new Captain of a company of
> kick-ass veteran soldiers.
>
> I really hated to see the old folk go (Sleepy! you had
> so much potential!).  I'm very glad that Glen appears
> to have interest in continuing the series.  Had
> Croaker taken a dirt nap I was pretty sure that the
> series was dead.  However, as things are now there
> seems to be a real potential for a continuation of the
> series.
>
> If Glen ever becomes interested in pursuing other
> works, I'd love to see a collected works where other
> writers would be allowed to write Black Company short
> stories.  Each would begin with "in those days the
> Company was in the service of ...."
>
> Michael
>
> --- Eric Herrmann <shpshftr@xmission.com> wrote:
> > > Is anyone else who has finished SL, just sitting
> > around wondering what to do
> > > next?
> >
> > I've exchanged reviews with several people already.
> > So I know there are
> > people who have finished. I don't know why they
> > haven't posted to the list
> > yet.
> >
> > No need to be timid people. Just put SL in the
> > subject and it is assumed to
> > be a spoiler. Just keep the rest of the subject
> > clean and you can put
> > anything in the body.
> >
> > Come on. I've been waiting 4 months to talk about
> > this book.
> > I'm giving it till the weekend and then I'm spoiling
> > everything. <g>
> >
> > Eric Herrmann
> > <shpshftr@xmission.com>
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.
> http://invites.yahoo.com/
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sam Felice" <sfelice@getty.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL editing (no spoilers)
Date: 05 Aug 2000 16:56:07 -0700

I've noticed that this is a growing problem in many books these days.  And =
you can tell that the problem lies with the modern computerized bookwriting=
 industry.  Even though Glen may write his books by hand, somebody goes =
and types them into a computer, and they get spellchecked and proofread =
that way before a human ever looks at them.  That's how you get people =
having a "food time" instead of a "good time".  The word food is spelled =
correctly, so a computer won't flag it, but it's obviously the wrong =
word.=20

Supposedly, there are still humans proofreading and copy-editing these =
books before they're typeset.  But who knows what goes on in those =
publishing houses now.  As I mentioned earlier, it's been something I've =
been noticing more and more of lately.  I noticed it MANY times throughout =
the book Prophecy that I just finished reading.  And it really annoyed me. =
 It doesn't change how well you enjoy the story, but it's like watching a =
movie and having someone in the corner talking.  It pulls you out of the =
moment and makes you realize you're just reading a book/watching a movie.

I'm beginning to think like you, where I'm going to start complaining when =
I see these errors pop up.  I can forgive one or two.  That's human error. =
 But when you get up to 10, 20, 50, 100.  That's just lazy.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Eric Herrmann <shpshftr@xmission.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL Sequel (spoilers)
Date: 07 Aug 2000 10:14:52 -0600

on 8/7/00 7:47 AM, WinB@aol.com at WinB@aol.com wrote:

> Moving forward, I don't think it would be appropriate to have a sequel
> directly related to the Company. "In those days the Company..." just doesn't
> fit anymore.

I think the sequel is the Senjak sisters. Now that the men they competed for
(Dominator and Croaker) are no longer available and Dorotea is the equal in
power to Sylith, they patch up their differences and go shopping. That is
shopping for kingdoms, empires and worlds.

Eric Herrmann
<shpshftr@xmission.com>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: CookReader@aol.com
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL:  SPOILERS, read after you're done (long)
Date: 06 Aug 2000 12:35:11 EDT


In a message dated 8/5/00 8:01:19 PM, jrraney@mediaone.net writes:

>A couple questions though:  I don't quite understand that whole "barrier"
>at the bottom of the nameless fortress, leading to kina's lair.  How come
>Blade couldn't get through it after trying so long, and then Sleepy easily
>walked through?

Because she a girl, silly. Actually, I don't know. It is interesting to see
that Tobo wasn't going through either and Blade was sure that had he
lit the fires it would have made no difference. My best guess is that it
would have made a difference, but he'd convinced himself it wouldn't
have. No one wants to spend days on a problem only to have someone
else come up with a solution in seconds. Once they saw they only had
two more steps to go....

>Also, did it ever explain what happened to Sahra?  It seemed like she was
>just not there, and we never got a reason why or where she went.

Well, considering that Croaker, Murgan, and Tobo were satisfied that she
wasn't coming back, and that the narration places her alongside her dead
relatives...I'm calling her dead.

>And it seemed to me that Howler died way too easily.  I know it was shadows
>that got him, but still...this is a guy that people have been trying to
>kill for centuries and he dies on a simple raid.

I don't buy him as dead either. I'm guessing he headed out for parts unknown.
He got what he wanted, why stick around? Okay, so it's in his nature to be a
follower, but still.

I thought he was going to show back up, since there is a scene where it
could be him.

Page 455-456 [Last line]: The tip of the knife touched cloth. It passed 
through,
found flesh, then a rib. Lady shifted her weight so she could drive the blade
between bones.
   She never sensed it coming. The blow, seemingly struck to the right side of
her head, was powerful enough to hurl her sideways a half dozen feet, into a
wall. [...]

   A whiff of old death, of graveyard mold, hung in the air of the room.

Okay, a stretch, but Kina isn't a fast enough thinker on her feet to prevent
Goblin from killing her, but she can do so for her daughter? Kina hasn't shown
the ability to manifest physically anywhere outside of the Grove of Doom
(and then only after rites and ceremonies and in the body of a statue), so I
don't see her thinking fast enough and being able to smack both Lady and
Booboo. I'm placing my bets on the Howler.

Look at the Howler death scene again. Seems to me I can't recall them even
hauling the body out, let alone disposing of it. 'Course I can't find that 
scene
now, but a few shadows never hurt anyone. :)

christopher....





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: CookReader@aol.com
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL editing (no spoilers)
Date: 06 Aug 2000 12:35:09 EDT


In a message dated 8/5/00 6:57:17 PM, sfelice@getty.edu writes:

>Supposedly, there are still humans proofreading and copy-editing these
>books before they're typeset.  But who knows what goes on in those publishing
>houses now.  As I mentioned earlier, it's been something I've been noticing
>more and more of lately.  I noticed it MANY times throughout the book 
Prophecy
>that I just finished reading.  And it really annoyed me.  It doesn't change
>how well you enjoy the story, but it's like watching a movie and having
>someone in the corner talking.  It pulls you out of the moment and makes
>you realize you're just reading a book/watching a movie.

There's getting to be a terrible compression in the publishing bussines. Look 
on
the Tor website. They address the fact that a book like Jordan's new one will
go out the door a nano-second after they can get it to go. They are not 
sitting
on manuscripts, keeping them from the public that wants them. Seems to me
that they should hold 'em a little while longer. :) There are also like 19 
people
working at Tor.

>I'm beginning to think like you, where I'm going to start complaining when
>I see these errors pop up.  I can forgive one or two.  That's human error.
> But when you get up to 10, 20, 50, 100.  That's just lazy.

Well, I wasn't really going to complain. Just point 'em out to improve the
product.

christopher....




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Richard Gruver" <richgru@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Don't want to start
Date: 05 Aug 2000 12:50:11 -0500


My amazon order arrived on Monday and SL is still sitting on my table
unread. I know if I start reading it I will consume it wolfishly and then it
will be over, and I really don't want it to be over.
On another topic I don't think TOR is doing much to push sales on this book.
The major chains apparently don't think it will sell. I was in the Barnes &
Noble in downtown Fort Worth last night and noticed that they only had one
copy on the shelves. I commented to the cashier that they must have sold a
lot of them to be down to only one already. Out of curiosity she looked it
up in the computer and they had only ordered three copies of the book from
the publisher.
Richard







-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jordan Raney" <jrraney@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL (spoilers)
Date: 06 Aug 2000 17:28:00 -0500

> Quite the contrary.  I read the last words, put the book down and
> was totally satisfied.  I was really worried that after all the years of
> wondering about the fates of Booboo et al  I'd get this book then be
> disappointed.  But I wasn't.
>
> Yes I was "sad" when particular characters died - and some of the
> deaths were a bit anti-climatic (along the lines of - 'oh, and he's
> dead too, onto the next chapter').  Overall I'm happy - it ended well.
>  I was really glad it came full circle and Croaker was back in the
> narrator's seat.

This is also the feeling I had.  I was perfectly "satisfied" when I finished
it.

> As for Khatovar - I liked the way it was handled.  All through the
> books of the South Croaker was told he'd be disappointed if he ever
> got there.  They were right.  Khatovar was a bust.  It was a ploy to
> get the Black Company in place for Shivetya's plans.

I didn't have a problem with the way he handled Khatovar either.  I might
have been more disappointed if Water Sleeps hadn't been the way it was...but
in Water Sleeps I remember that everyone went into the Land of Unknown
Shadows thinking they'd never be able to get to Khatovar because its "gate"
was broken.  I was very disappointed when I read that, but when I picked up
Soldier's Live, I did so with the notion in my head that they'd never be
able to get there anyway, so I was pleasantly surprised when they figured
out how to "fix" gates.

JR




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: WinB@aol.com
Subject: (glencook-fans) SL Sequel (spoilers)
Date: 07 Aug 2000 09:47:13 EDT

I've finished the book and read quite a few of your comments. I whole-heartedly agree that Cook wrapped things up nicely with Croaker.

Moving forward, I don't think it would be appropriate to have a sequel directly related to the Company. "In those days the Company..." just doesn't fit anymore.

However, think about this. Croaker mentions that Shivetya started the whole thing after the battle of the Barrowlands, laying his seed of thought that would eventually allow him to "die." Now Shivetya occupies Croaker's body and we can assume that Croaker has all of the golem's former powers. Croaker knows what is happening in Hsien. What if Tobo, Arkana, Shurkat and the Children of the Dead return to Hsien and travel north? We know that the worlds are identical except where man has intervened. Does the north have a Plain of Fear? Does it have it's own version of the Barrowland?

Tobo (he really does need a new name, even though Shukrat calls him Tobe) has been brought up right. He could become the great and powerful Oz, aided by his wife and sister-in-law (and maybe Lady, but that may be too much of a link). I wouldn't like to see him become a new Dominator, but perhaps a crisis of faith?

Maybe it would start something like this...

The Company is no more, if it ever existed for me as it had for those that came before. I have taken up the pen that was left, but not as Annalist, as my father would have wanted. I do not know what drives me to record events as I see them. Perhaps it is out of some respect for what he achieved. Maybe it's just out of a desire to see that things will be remembered.

In those days, we were in the service of no one...

Well, it *could* start like that.

Win



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: CookReader@aol.com
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Alternative Authors (was Yesssssssssss!)
Date: 06 Aug 2000 12:35:07 EDT


In a message dated 8/5/00 5:11:00 PM, Sam.Roberts@apollogrp.edu writes:

>I think the point was (and please excuse me if I'm misinterpreting) that
>the kid refused to consider ANY authors if they weren't TSR books.  That's
>the truly sad thing, as if TSR was the only producer of quality or 
interesting
>fantasy.  Hopefully it's just a phase and he'll grow out of it.  :-}

He will. I worked for Borders for 4 years and I would all the time have 
parents
come in saying, "My kid will only read Star Wars," or "Dragonlance," or 
whatever.
Goosebumps or Fear Street or Christopher Pike or whatever. They would act
like this was a major concern.

Hell, at least the kid is reading. Eventually he will get bored or run-out (a 
near
impossible task with TSR).

I loved it when I could try to push a good book on a kid that is mostly used 
to
reading crap. Nothing wrong with crap, I started with the usuals also, but 
there
are better things out there than a lot of the shared world books.

I found Cook from the reverse of this. I've been pushing books for a few years
and a customer politely listened to my canned diatribe, then said, "Well, have
you read Cook?" He puts Black Company in my hands. Terrible terrible cover.
The rest of the series is even worse. I only read it because it would have 
been
hypocritical of me not to (I'd shoved enough Brust down people's throat to
deserve a few bad cover books).

Anyway, I read it and loved it and to my great delight there were another 5
books! Took me a long weekend to read all straight through and I've since read
them pretty much annually and shoved them down other's throat for awhile now.

I do wish they would redo the covers though.

christopher....




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "PrimalChrome" <chrome@wwisp.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) The FAQ
Date: 07 Aug 2000 08:18:53 -0500

Are you wanting a Glen Cook FAQ, or looking to compile one specific to this
ListServ?


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 10:07 AM


So the list has been around now for a year or so. It's about time we had a
FAQ. The FAQ will be stored on the website with the archives.

Anybody want to take on this task?

If you have suggestions for the FAQ send them to me and then I'll forward
them to whoever accepts the task. I'm just hoping it isn't me. :)

Eric Herrmann
<shpshftr@xmission.com>






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: CookReader@aol.com
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL:spoilers don't read unless you are finished
Date: 06 Aug 2000 12:35:13 EDT


In a message dated 8/5/00 10:11:10 AM, lich@mtco.com writes:

>. . . except for the fact that SL is the last Black Company book.  Glen
>has no interest in writing anymore (Black Company anyway) -- burnout.

I'm guessing this all depends on how his next book is recieved. The BC
books are his bread&butter books. If he can parlay the popularity over
to another series he's set, but if the next is not well recieved my guess
is that he'll be back doing what sells.

In a message dated 8/5/00 9:52:23 PM, mdscholl@yahoo.com writes:

>Besides, Croaker-golem doing Gozilla meets Mothra
>battle against the thing under Old Man Tree just
>demands to be written!!!

My money's on the thing under the Tree unless it comes out weak
and grogy. Well, I guess it depends on how old the thing under the
tree is. Chances are good the Shyetva (sp) would know its true
name and the whole thing would be anti-climatic.

christopher....






-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Eric Herrmann <shpshftr@xmission.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Book Covers (was Alternative Authors)
Date: 06 Aug 2000 12:25:53 -0600

> I found Cook from the reverse of this. I've been pushing books for a few years
> and a customer politely listened to my canned diatribe, then said, "Well, have
> you read Cook?" He puts Black Company in my hands. Terrible terrible cover.
> The rest of the series is even worse. I only read it because it would have
> been
> hypocritical of me not to (I'd shoved enough Brust down people's throat to
> deserve a few bad cover books).
> 
> Anyway, I read it and loved it and to my great delight there were another 5
> books! Took me a long weekend to read all straight through and I've since read
> them pretty much annually and shoved them down other's throat for awhile now.
> 
> I do wish they would redo the covers though.

Having scavenged some 135 images of Glen Cook covers lately. I'm not sure
he's done better outside the United States. A lot of the Black Company
covers are recycled Luis Royo that having nothing to do with the book.

In fact, the cover of Shadow Games in Poland is the classic Stormbringer
cover from the Elric of Melnibone series. So, Croaker's an albino with a
soul-sucking sword now?

At least France and Germany seem to have done original artwork for the
covers. I'm not sure that the German covers are that much better, but the
French editions are fantastic.

The French covers are rich in detail and are actual scenes from the book.
(On the new website are images from the cover, spine, and back of the book.)
I hope that l'Atlante continues to publish more Black Company books. They
make a great addition to any Cook collection.

Eric Herrmann
<shpshftr@xmission.com>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: schew@interzone.com (Steve Chew)
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Book Covers (was Alternative Authors)
Date: 07 Aug 2000 13:11:12 -0400 (EDT)

>
>> > I found Cook from the reverse of this. I've been pushing books for a few 
>> years
>>  > and a customer politely listened to my canned diatribe, then said, 
>"Well, 
>> have
>>  > you read Cook?" He puts Black Company in my hands. Terrible terrible 
>cover.
>> 
>>  > The rest of the series is even worse.
>
>The funny part is that Glen first saw Keith Berdak's artwork at a convention, 
>and loved it and asked him to do the covers, because he felt that they 
>correctly captured the feel of the series.  Don't know that I agree with that 
>sentiment....
>

	Actually, I've always loved the cover on "The Black Company".
It's what caught my eye back in '86 and was the reason I picked up the
book and bought it.  I also like some of the most recent covers.

				Steve


-- 
Steve Chew - schew@interzone.com - http://www.interzone.com
"Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else."



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "anthony palermo" <thepongo@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Alternative Authors (was Yesssssssssss!)
Date: 05 Aug 2000 15:59:12 -0500

Oops!  My Bad...it twould seem.

I am new to the list and was not aware that this happened in the past.
Simply thought some suggestions by other Cook fans would be nice (and they
have been) as I hope to expand beyond Cook, Brust, Moorcock, Donaldson, et
cetera.

To those who did respond...thank you very much.
To those of you it annoyed, mi piace.

Tony
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 9:51 AM


>
> In a message dated 8/2/00 11:13:19 PM, thepongo@worldnet.att.net writes:
>
> >And I wanted to ask the group...sort of off topic.
> >
> >When I am done I was looking for another book and/or series in the same
> >vein as Cook.  Any recommendations?
>
> Ummm, not that I want to be the negative voice here, but this thread seems
> to come up every now and again, and frankly, it's usually not just "sort
of
> off topic," it's usually way off topic. People throw out the same handful
of
> authors that they happen to like, many of which self-admittedly have
> nothing to do with Cook. "I like A and I like B, so anyone who likes A
will
> like B," doesn't work for me. (Give me an A B C D & F and I may try giving
> you a G.)
>
> This is the first time this thread has actually generated content that is
> somewhat on-topic (I could be wrong). I don't mind these when they are
> tied back to Cook, but by themselves I could care less.
>
> So, here's my suggestion. Could we make a FAQ or a section on one
> of the websites for "further" reading, where this type of list could be
> maintianed? This way, when this comes up Eric could just post the URL
> and we could go on discussing the author this list is dedicated to.
> People could still feel free to suggest authors people will like based
> on thier love of Cook, just write up who and why and send it to Eric. :)
>
> Or, just say I'm in the minority here, that this really is what people
> want to talk about now that SL is out, and I'll shut the yap on my
> face and we can go on talking about books I never intend to read.
>
> christopher....
>
>
>
>
>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "OBRIEN,LEE (HP-Boise,ex1)" <lee_obrien@hp.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) SL Sequel (spoilers)
Date: 07 Aug 2000 10:26:05 -0600 

And Croaker can subtly manipulate everyone's beliefs.  I wonder if the
literacy rates will go up.

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, August 07, 2000 10:15 AM


on 8/7/00 7:47 AM, WinB@aol.com at WinB@aol.com wrote:

> Moving forward, I don't think it would be appropriate to have a sequel
> directly related to the Company. "In those days the Company..." just
doesn't
> fit anymore.

I think the sequel is the Senjak sisters. Now that the men they competed for
(Dominator and Croaker) are no longer available and Dorotea is the equal in
power to Sylith, they patch up their differences and go shopping. That is
shopping for kingdoms, empires and worlds.

Eric Herrmann
<shpshftr@xmission.com>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Darin McGee" <dmcgee@lycos.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Alternative Authors (was Yesssssssssss!)
Date: 05 Aug 2000 15:06:33 -0700

 I don't think you're being fair to TSR fans.  I tend to read anything that catches my interest and at times that has been books by Salvatore, Weis & Hickman.  I know a few people whose reading material is almost entirely TSR and at first I thought they were simply restricting themselves but I've learned over time that they prefer TSR because they want to read about a world that becomes VERY detailed.  It's a personal choice and doesn't reflect ignorance.  Just because YOU think that Cook is the greatest thing since sliced bread (and so do I for that matter..) doesn't mean everyone else has to.

Darin
 
--

>
>I ran into a kid once who I discussed a couple fantasy books with.  As
>usual, I tried to introduce him to Cook.  He responded, " I only read
>TSR/Forgotten Realms books."  I didn't know whether to laugh at him or cry
>at his ignorance.  Ultimately, I settled for my default reaction of ignoring
>him.
>
>


Send your favorite photo with any online greeting!
http://www.whowhere.lycos.com/redirects/americangreetings.rdct



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: CookReader@aol.com
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL (SPOILERS)
Date: 06 Aug 2000 22:08:43 EDT


In a message dated 8/6/00 7:36:33 PM, shpshftr@xmission.com writes:

>To review,

[Eric's page counting deleted]

>I didn't particularly like the Glittering Stone books at all. But I suppose
>that is because I was reading them expecting something different and it
>took so very long for them to be published.
>
>I expected a nice tight run to Khatavor to find out the Why of the Black
>Company. Shadow Games would have gotten us to Dejagore, Dreams of Steel
>to Overlook, and Glittering Stone to Khatavor and the death of Kina. Done
>in a 1000 pages.


Hhhmmm, got to go against you on this one, Eric. This was one of the things
I actually liked about the Books of the South. The Company can't just bluster
on through like they do in the North. They get thwarted, side-tracked, and
caught up in intrigue. If they ran things in the South like they did in the 
north
they would have said, "Screw these people, we've got the Lance, let's make a
run around." And don't tell me they couldn't have. The Company was sneaking
in and out of impenetrable fortress left and right. They could have slipped
a measly seven guys past Overlook. Soulcatcher managed to do it. The fact
that they weren't just gethering up the plot cupons to get from point A to
point B was frustratingly refreshing.

>I think the real story would have better if it had been presented as two
>trilogies and lost about 400 pages. The first trilogy handling the Shadow
>Masters and the second trilogy handling Khatavor and Kina.

Except that each book revises what comes before. They kind of blend and
breaking them up like that would have served little (in my mind). And this
book (SL) could have used another 400 pages of detail.

I thought it would have been briliant had Cook killed off Booboo and Naryan
right off the bat (instead of Otto and Hagop), then instead of the lame
running around with these two, you could have had a "The year off the skulls
was no longer possible, but we still had a promise to keep and Soulcatcher
to deal with." Maybe less satisfying, but sure beats making a popsicle out
of Catcher without a real conflict.

>Reading them thinking that Khatavor was the destination and then not getting
>there each time and starting each book at square one back in Taglios was
>an exercise in frustration for 10 years. I got really tired of Taglios.

Same here, but in the same way I got sick of Dejagore. In a good story telling
way. They characters were also sick of it. It showed.

>In reality, Khatavor meant very little to nothing. The real story is Kina
>and the half dozen perspectives or mythologies surrounding her.

Well, Khatavor is like Tanelorn in the Moorcock books, that mythical,
unatainable place. Of course it would be a letdown once you got there.
And if you think the Kina bit was the important part of the story I
feel sorry for you, since I was bored by all that. Okay, we established
she's bad and evil and wants to kill everyone, move on. Hell, if she's
not even going to wake up, if the best we get is a peak behind the curtain,
a glimpse into the bedroom, then let's get back to the fighting, or the
intrigue.

I kept wishing another wizard from the north would show up. No one ever
really did go after lady for what she knew. I would have loved a scene
where she gets tortured and gives it up, rats out every names she
knows, gives of the spell of The Eye, and the secret to Taking. Instead
we're constantly told what she represents, more power than the silver
spike, and no one comes a huntin'? Even a few bedraggled bounty hunters
would have been welcome.

>What is the truth about Kina? What is the truth about the Black Company?
>These questions are each answered differently by each book. Somewhere in
>each book someone explains Kina and the Black Company which mostly
>contradicts all the other books.

I liked this about the company, didn't care for it for Kina. I care about the
Company, but Kina's just some blob of godly flesh that dreams in centuries.

>Knowing now that the story really revolves around the battle of wits between
>Kina and Shivetya and not Khatavor, I think in rereading them I'll enjoy
>them more as I look for the clues of this struggle.

Well, that's what I did after each of the other books. Reread them imaging
the company as a strangler cult gone wrong, or as a Nyangan Boa (sp)
tribe that lost its way, or as...you keep getting a new way to look at what
has already come.

>The Books of the South and Glittering Stone are not like the Books of the
>North. They are much more like Dread Empire. Dread Empire is world building
>by retelling the same event from all the different perspectives.

Halfway into the second, so no comment.

>It took 2500 pages to explain Kina and the why of war and death in the
>South. Perhaps if Glen had the 7 more books of Dread Empire he intended
>we'd understand the Fates and the Norns.
>
>So did I answer the question? Probably not.

Yes. Makes me wonder why you spend so much energy. This list, the website,
you really should find an author worhty of your efforts. :)

Actually, I feel like we're in the same boat, but I'm guessing the BC books
aren't your faves. Garret or DE? Me, I like the BC books the best, but mostly
because in the DE I can't figure out what sides people are on or what the
behind the scene plots are. I'm constantly feeling like Croaker in SL, with
Cook playing the plot too close to the chest.

>I didn't find the ending satisfying. I didn't like how the characters kept
>dieing. I didn't like how Khatavor was handled. Croaker was missing that
>spark. Lady and Soulcatcher were non-existant. Croaker was the only
>three-dimensional character, everyone else was flat. There wasn't a good
>climax. The book carried on in a monotonous, unemotional style.

Yeah, the flat character bit is exactly why I didn't care for anyone in
this book and even Croaker wasn't someone I wanted to read about.
Give me an analyst with a hard-on for the evil babe, not the dirty
old man having gandparent sex. As disturbing as a car crash.
I did like some of the new wizard girls. When Arkana was raped, I
thought, "Welcome to the company." I was also suprised that the
company managed to keep them prisoner as long as they did.
If there's one thing the Company has sucked at it's running jails.

I hated how the final word was given to these two and Tobo isn't
directly in the book after the assassination attempt.

Too often in SL the plot seemed driven by the author instead of
the situations. Too bad for Tobo that he wasn't decked out like
his girlfriend.

>I liked the book in that it is done, the loose ends are mostly tied, and
>most questions are answered.
>
>I reserve the right to change my opinions and I eagerly await something
>new.

Well, I liked it, not as well as some of the earlier books, but I liked it.

christopher....



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Michele" <mr1@rcosta.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL (spoilers)
Date: 06 Aug 2000 17:25:37 -0400

On 4 Aug 00, at 9:34, Warner, Jon wrote:


>However, I was totally let down by our brief glimpse of
Khatovar... but none the less I was left flat and let down. 
> Any similar feelings?
> 
> Jonathan


Quite the contrary.  I read the last words, put the book down and 
was totally satisfied.  I was really worried that after all the years of 
wondering about the fates of Booboo et al  I'd get this book then be 
disappointed.  But I wasn't.  

Yes I was "sad" when particular characters died - and some of the 
deaths were a bit anti-climatic (along the lines of - 'oh, and he's 
dead too, onto the next chapter').  Overall I'm happy - it ended well. 
 I was really glad it came full circle and Croaker was back in the 
narrator's seat.  

As for Khatovar - I liked the way it was handled.  All through the 
books of the South Croaker was told he'd be disappointed if he ever 
got there.  They were right.  Khatovar was a bust.  It was a ploy to 
get the Black Company in place for Shivetya's plans.  You notice 
that even after he finds Khatovar, Croaker never once mentions 
bringing the annals there - which was the rationale behind going in 
the first place.  

M




Michele
mr1@rcosta.com



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Lich" <lich@mtco.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL:  SPOILERS, read after you're done (long)
Date: 06 Aug 2000 09:09:00 -0500

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I have to agree (although I know some on this list don't) that Cook's =
first three Company books are the most enjoyable.  I too was kinda =
dissapointed by Water Sleeps, although I enjoyed it more when I read it =
the second time, and didn't come to it with any preconceived notions =
from just having read She is the Darkness.  It remains the second =
weakest book of the series (next to Bleak Seasons).  For this reason I =
was a little worried about how Soldiers would turn out. . .

I too was very pleased when I discovered that Croaker was once again =
annalist.  I have to agree that Howler went down FAR to easily for one =
of the Taken, but Cook must be forgiven that because of Howler's status =
as a side-liner, rather than a character in the spotlight.  Who knows, =
maybe the thing that made Howler so bad was his howling, and when the =
demon cured it he was just another off-the-rack superpowerful =
pseudo-undead supersorcerer.  Those type die easily.

Sahra was pissing me off, I was kinda glad when she bought it.  I don't =
feel it deserves any kind of explanation. . . in the chaos of huge =
combats like that it's very probably that someone could get smoked and =
just never be heard from again.

Enough rambling. . ..=20
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Jordan Raney=20
  To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com=20
  Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 7:57 PM
  Subject: (glencook-fans) SL: SPOILERS, read after you're done (long)


  Don't read this unless you've finished...it's kind of long but I hope =
people can find stuff to discuss in all this:
  =20
  =20
  =20
  =20
  =20
  =20
  =20
  =20
  =20
  =20
  =20
  Wow....I just finished the book half an hour ago and I must say that =
it was amazing.  My favorite BC books were the first 3 and I thought it =
kind of went down hill after that...Water Sleeps was alright but it =
wasn't a masterpiece.  This was though.
  =20
  First of all, I was greatly excited to discover that Croaker was the =
annalist!  I hadn't read any info about the book until I opened to the =
first page, purposely, just to keep myself from learning things like =
that.  It wasn't the same style as Croaker's earlier books, but I think =
that can be accounted for by the fact that he probably hadn't been =
keeping annals for what....20 years?  Something like that anyway.  And =
after being captain, having and losing a daughter, becoming dictator of =
taglios, being buried alive for 15 years, etc. any change in style is =
easily accounted for.
  =20
  I had a few questions about SL that I may have just missed, since I =
read through it so quickly (just got it yesterday afternoon), but I =
can't remember most of them because I was so stunned by the amazing =
ending.  I thought Cook did a perfect job of closing things up.  It =
would have been horrible to see Croaker die a regular death due to some =
unfortunate turn of events, but it would have been just as bad to see =
him just grow old and see him slowly decay into nothing.  So how does a =
writer get out of this predicament?  Leave it up to Cook to find a way.  =
A great idea to have Croaker switch places with shivetya, damning =
himself to eternity (well, at least he could entertain himself a bit =
with shivetya's memories) and becoming the source of Lady's power....
  =20
  A couple questions though:  I don't quite understand that whole =
"barrier" at the bottom of the nameless fortress, leading to kina's =
lair.  How come Blade couldn't get through it after trying so long, and =
then Sleepy easily walked through?
  Also, did it ever explain what happened to Sahra?  It seemed like she =
was just not there, and we never got a reason why or where she went.
  And it seemed to me that Howler died way too easily.  I know it was =
shadows that got him, but still...this is a guy that people have been =
trying to kill for centuries and he dies on a simple raid.
  =20
  Overall I thought it was amazing and I hope that it's the last of the =
Black Company.  I love this series a lot, but this is the perfect =
ending.  I know other people on the list have said things like "Great, =
Croaker's not really dead, so Cook can write a sequel."  But I hope =
Cook's done with that.  It'd be great to see more books from the WORLD =
of the Black Company, or their early history, but I certainly don't =
think Cook should write anything more near the time of Soldier's Live =
etc. or even with the same characters.  All memorable characters have =
really been killed off...Croaker was it.  I would not want to see a book =
with Suvrin leading or even Lady...although I'm sure Cook could pull =
that off well.
  =20
  And that brings up one of the reasons, I think, why this book was so =
great.  Croaker, a character that we actually care about, is back as =
annalist.  Murgen was alright, and so was Lady, but in Water Sleeps I =
felt very disconnected because I simply didn't care about Sleepy.  I =
guess I just didn't like the character.  And when she died in SL I just =
sort of thought to myself "good riddance, one more boring character is =
now dead."  I don't know what it is about the early BC books, and why I =
care more about the outcome of Elmo, the lieutenant, raven, etc. so much =
more than sleepy, sahra, etc.
  =20
  I probably forgot something, but that's the bulk of it.
  =20
  Simply Amazing.  Cook at his best.
  =20
  JR

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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I have to agree (although I know some =
on this list=20
don't) that Cook's first three Company books are the most =
enjoyable.&nbsp; I too=20
was kinda dissapointed by Water Sleeps, although I enjoyed it more when =
I read=20
it the second time, and didn't come to it with any preconceived notions =
from=20
just having read She is the Darkness.&nbsp; It remains the second =
weakest book=20
of the series (next to Bleak Seasons).&nbsp; For this reason I was a =
little=20
worried about how Soldiers would turn out. . .</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I too was very pleased when I =
discovered that=20
Croaker was once again annalist.&nbsp; I have to agree that Howler went =
down FAR=20
to easily for one of the Taken, but Cook must be forgiven that because =
of=20
Howler's status as a side-liner, rather than a character in the =
spotlight.&nbsp;=20
Who knows, maybe the thing that made Howler so bad was his howling, and =
when the=20
demon cured it he was just another off-the-rack superpowerful =
pseudo-undead=20
supersorcerer.&nbsp; Those type die easily.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Sahra was pissing me off, I was kinda =
glad when she=20
bought it.&nbsp; I don't feel it deserves any kind of explanation. . . =
in the=20
chaos of huge combats like that it's very probably that someone could =
get smoked=20
and just never be heard from again.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Enough rambling. . .. </FONT></DIV>
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style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:jrraney@mediaone.net" =
title=3Djrraney@mediaone.net>Jordan=20
  Raney</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com"=20
  =
title=3Dglencook-fans@lists.xmission.com>glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, August 05, 2000 =
7:57=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> (glencook-fans) SL: =
SPOILERS,=20
  read after you're done (long)</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Don't read this unless you've finished...it's kind =
of long=20
  but I hope people can find stuff to discuss in all this:</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Wow....I just finished the book half an hour ago =
and I must=20
  say that it was amazing.&nbsp; My favorite BC books were the first 3 =
and I=20
  thought it kind of went down hill after that...Water Sleeps was =
alright but it=20
  wasn't a masterpiece.&nbsp; This was though.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>First of all, I was greatly excited to discover =
that Croaker=20
  was the annalist!&nbsp; I hadn't read any info about the book until I =
opened=20
  to the first page, purposely, just to keep myself from learning things =
like=20
  that.&nbsp; It wasn't the same style as Croaker's earlier books, but I =
think=20
  that can be accounted for by the fact that he probably hadn't been =
keeping=20
  annals for what....20 years?&nbsp; Something like that anyway.&nbsp; =
And after=20
  being captain, having and losing a daughter, becoming dictator of =
taglios,=20
  being buried alive for 15 years, etc. any change in style is easily =
accounted=20
  for.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>I had a few questions about SL that I may have =
just missed,=20
  since I read through it so quickly (just got it yesterday afternoon), =
but I=20
  can't remember most of them because I was so stunned by the amazing=20
  ending.&nbsp; I thought Cook did a perfect job of closing things =
up.&nbsp; It=20
  would have been horrible to see Croaker die a regular death due to =
some=20
  unfortunate turn of events, but it would have been just as bad to see =
him just=20
  grow old and see him slowly decay into nothing.&nbsp; So how does a =
writer get=20
  out of this predicament?&nbsp; Leave it up to Cook to find a =
way.&nbsp; A=20
  great idea to have Croaker switch places with shivetya, damning =
himself to=20
  eternity (well, at least he could entertain himself a bit with =
shivetya's=20
  memories) and becoming the source of Lady's power....</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>A couple questions though:&nbsp; I don't quite =
understand=20
  that whole "barrier" at the bottom of the nameless fortress, leading =
to kina's=20
  lair.&nbsp; How come Blade couldn't get through it after trying so =
long, and=20
  then Sleepy easily walked through?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Also, did it ever explain what happened to =
Sahra?&nbsp; It=20
  seemed like she was just not there, and we never got a reason why or =
where she=20
  went.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>And it seemed to me that Howler died way too =
easily.&nbsp; I=20
  know it was shadows that got him, but still...this is a guy that =
people have=20
  been trying to kill for centuries and he dies on a simple =
raid.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Overall I thought it was amazing and I hope that =
it's the=20
  last of the Black Company.&nbsp; I love this series a lot, but this is =
the=20
  perfect ending.&nbsp; I know other people on the list have said things =
like=20
  "Great, Croaker's not really dead, so Cook can write a sequel."&nbsp; =
But I=20
  hope Cook's done with that.&nbsp; It'd be great to see more books from =
the=20
  WORLD of the Black Company, or their early history, but I certainly =
don't=20
  think Cook should write anything more near the time of Soldier's Live =
etc. or=20
  even with the same characters.&nbsp; All memorable characters have =
really been=20
  killed off...Croaker was it.&nbsp; I would not want to see a book with =
Suvrin=20
  leading or even Lady...although I'm sure Cook could pull that off=20
  well.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>And that brings up one of the reasons, I think, =
why this=20
  book was so great.&nbsp; Croaker, a character that we actually care =
about, is=20
  back as annalist.&nbsp; Murgen was alright, and so was Lady, but in =
Water=20
  Sleeps I felt very disconnected because I simply didn't care about=20
  Sleepy.&nbsp; I guess I just didn't like the character.&nbsp; And when =
she=20
  died in SL I just sort of thought to myself "good riddance, one more =
boring=20
  character is now dead."&nbsp; I don't know what it is about the early =
BC=20
  books, and why I care more about the outcome of Elmo, the lieutenant, =
raven,=20
  etc. so much more than sleepy, sahra, etc.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>I probably forgot something, but that's the bulk =
of=20
  it.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Simply Amazing.&nbsp; Cook at his =
best.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>JR</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BFFF85.F5647D00--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Michael Scholl <mdscholl@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL:spoilers don't read unless you are finished
Date: 05 Aug 2000 19:51:48 -0700 (PDT)


Regarding the continuation of the BC series:

--- Lich <lich@mtco.com> wrote:
> .. . . except for the fact that SL is the last Black
> Company book.  Glen has
> no interest in writing anymore (Black Company
> anyway) -- burnout.
> 

Lich,  

I really don't think that is "a fact" at all.  SL is
certainly the last Glittering Stone book, but the
Black Company lives on. Its not like he ever said
"Black Company is dead" or disbanded the unit in SL. 

Thanks to Michael Sweet we've heard from Glen's own
mouth that "My agent and editor keep telling me to do
more Black Company books because they sell, so maybe I
will do more, I don't know."  While its not a firm
comfirmation, it doesn't rule it out.   Since Glen's
agent makes more money on popular books, you know
which way he will be leaning.  Also Glen doesn't want
to seem too eager to do another BC novel when he goes
in to negotiate the contract!

Besides, Croaker-golem doing Gozilla meets Mothra
battle against the thing under Old Man Tree just
demands to be written!!!

Think positive thoughts. Demand more BC!

Michael


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.
http://invites.yahoo.com/



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jordan Raney" <jrraney@mediaone.net>
Subject: (glencook-fans) SL:  SPOILERS, read after you're done (long)
Date: 05 Aug 2000 19:57:49 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Don't read this unless you've finished...it's kind of long but I hope =
people can find stuff to discuss in all this:











Wow....I just finished the book half an hour ago and I must say that it =
was amazing.  My favorite BC books were the first 3 and I thought it =
kind of went down hill after that...Water Sleeps was alright but it =
wasn't a masterpiece.  This was though.

First of all, I was greatly excited to discover that Croaker was the =
annalist!  I hadn't read any info about the book until I opened to the =
first page, purposely, just to keep myself from learning things like =
that.  It wasn't the same style as Croaker's earlier books, but I think =
that can be accounted for by the fact that he probably hadn't been =
keeping annals for what....20 years?  Something like that anyway.  And =
after being captain, having and losing a daughter, becoming dictator of =
taglios, being buried alive for 15 years, etc. any change in style is =
easily accounted for.

I had a few questions about SL that I may have just missed, since I read =
through it so quickly (just got it yesterday afternoon), but I can't =
remember most of them because I was so stunned by the amazing ending.  I =
thought Cook did a perfect job of closing things up.  It would have been =
horrible to see Croaker die a regular death due to some unfortunate turn =
of events, but it would have been just as bad to see him just grow old =
and see him slowly decay into nothing.  So how does a writer get out of =
this predicament?  Leave it up to Cook to find a way.  A great idea to =
have Croaker switch places with shivetya, damning himself to eternity =
(well, at least he could entertain himself a bit with shivetya's =
memories) and becoming the source of Lady's power....

A couple questions though:  I don't quite understand that whole =
"barrier" at the bottom of the nameless fortress, leading to kina's =
lair.  How come Blade couldn't get through it after trying so long, and =
then Sleepy easily walked through?
Also, did it ever explain what happened to Sahra?  It seemed like she =
was just not there, and we never got a reason why or where she went.
And it seemed to me that Howler died way too easily.  I know it was =
shadows that got him, but still...this is a guy that people have been =
trying to kill for centuries and he dies on a simple raid.

Overall I thought it was amazing and I hope that it's the last of the =
Black Company.  I love this series a lot, but this is the perfect =
ending.  I know other people on the list have said things like "Great, =
Croaker's not really dead, so Cook can write a sequel."  But I hope =
Cook's done with that.  It'd be great to see more books from the WORLD =
of the Black Company, or their early history, but I certainly don't =
think Cook should write anything more near the time of Soldier's Live =
etc. or even with the same characters.  All memorable characters have =
really been killed off...Croaker was it.  I would not want to see a book =
with Suvrin leading or even Lady...although I'm sure Cook could pull =
that off well.

And that brings up one of the reasons, I think, why this book was so =
great.  Croaker, a character that we actually care about, is back as =
annalist.  Murgen was alright, and so was Lady, but in Water Sleeps I =
felt very disconnected because I simply didn't care about Sleepy.  I =
guess I just didn't like the character.  And when she died in SL I just =
sort of thought to myself "good riddance, one more boring character is =
now dead."  I don't know what it is about the early BC books, and why I =
care more about the outcome of Elmo, the lieutenant, raven, etc. so much =
more than sleepy, sahra, etc.

I probably forgot something, but that's the bulk of it.

Simply Amazing.  Cook at his best.

JR

------=_NextPart_000_003E_01BFFF17.6E7734E0
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Don't read this unless you've finished...it's kind =
of long but=20
I hope people can find stuff to discuss in all this:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Wow....I just finished the book half an hour ago and =
I must=20
say that it was amazing.&nbsp; My favorite BC books were the first 3 and =
I=20
thought it kind of went down hill after that...Water Sleeps was alright =
but it=20
wasn't a masterpiece.&nbsp; This was though.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>First of all, I was greatly excited to discover that =
Croaker=20
was the annalist!&nbsp; I hadn't read any info about the book until I =
opened to=20
the first page, purposely, just to keep myself from learning things like =

that.&nbsp; It wasn't the same style as Croaker's earlier books, but I =
think=20
that can be accounted for by the fact that he probably hadn't been =
keeping=20
annals for what....20 years?&nbsp; Something like that anyway.&nbsp; And =
after=20
being captain, having and losing a daughter, becoming dictator of =
taglios, being=20
buried alive for 15 years, etc. any change in style is easily accounted=20
for.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I had a few questions about SL that I may have just =
missed,=20
since I read through it so quickly (just got it yesterday afternoon), =
but I=20
can't remember most of them because I was so stunned by the amazing=20
ending.&nbsp; I thought Cook did a perfect job of closing things =
up.&nbsp; It=20
would have been horrible to see Croaker die a regular death due to some=20
unfortunate turn of events, but it would have been just as bad to see =
him just=20
grow old and see him slowly decay into nothing.&nbsp; So how does a =
writer get=20
out of this predicament?&nbsp; Leave it up to Cook to find a way.&nbsp; =
A great=20
idea to have Croaker switch places with shivetya, damning himself to =
eternity=20
(well, at least he could entertain himself a bit with shivetya's =
memories) and=20
becoming the source of Lady's power....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>A couple questions though:&nbsp; I don't quite =
understand that=20
whole "barrier" at the bottom of the nameless fortress, leading to =
kina's=20
lair.&nbsp; How come Blade couldn't get through it after trying so long, =
and=20
then Sleepy easily walked through?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Also, did it ever explain what happened to =
Sahra?&nbsp; It=20
seemed like she was just not there, and we never got a reason why or =
where she=20
went.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>And it seemed to me that Howler died way too =
easily.&nbsp; I=20
know it was shadows that got him, but still...this is a guy that people =
have=20
been trying to kill for centuries and he dies on a simple =
raid.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Overall I thought it was amazing and I hope that =
it's the last=20
of the Black Company.&nbsp; I love this series a lot, but this is the =
perfect=20
ending.&nbsp; I know other people on the list have said things like =
"Great,=20
Croaker's not really dead, so Cook can write a sequel."&nbsp; But I hope =
Cook's=20
done with that.&nbsp; It'd be great to see more books from the WORLD of =
the=20
Black Company, or their early history, but I certainly don't think Cook =
should=20
write anything more near the time of Soldier's Live etc. or even with =
the same=20
characters.&nbsp; All memorable characters have really been killed =
off...Croaker=20
was it.&nbsp; I would not want to see a book with Suvrin leading or even =

Lady...although I'm sure Cook could pull that off well.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>And that brings up one of the reasons, I think, why =
this book=20
was so great.&nbsp; Croaker, a character that we actually care about, is =
back as=20
annalist.&nbsp; Murgen was alright, and so was Lady, but in Water Sleeps =
I felt=20
very disconnected because I simply didn't care about Sleepy.&nbsp; I =
guess I=20
just didn't like the character.&nbsp; And when she died in SL I just =
sort of=20
thought to myself "good riddance, one more boring character is now =
dead."&nbsp;=20
I don't know what it is about the early BC books, and why I care more =
about the=20
outcome of Elmo, the lieutenant, raven, etc. so much more than sleepy, =
sahra,=20
etc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I probably forgot something, but that's the bulk of=20
it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Simply Amazing.&nbsp; Cook at his best.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>JR</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Michael Scholl <mdscholl@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Book Covers (was Alternative Authors)
Date: 07 Aug 2000 06:07:18 -0700 (PDT)


--- BaronetCorvu@cs.com wrote:
> He puts Black Company in my hands. Terrible terrible

> cover.The rest of the series is even worse.

Michael W. Sweet added:
 
> The funny part is that Glen first saw Keith Berdak's
> artwork at a convention, and loved it and asked him 
> to do the covers, because he felt that they 
> correctly captured the feel of the series.  Don't
> know that I agree with that sentiment....
> 
> MWS
 
I know what you mean.  Berdak's work is a little
unusual.  I did initially buy the Black Company based
on its cover.  I guess I owe it to Berdak because he
introduced me to Glen's work.  I was struck by the
cover enough to buy it off the bookrack at the grocery
store.  I don't think I've had ever done that before
or since. Silver Spike and Shadow Games covers are
pretty cool as well.

Michael  




__________________________________________________
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Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.
http://invites.yahoo.com/



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "R. Hyrum Savage" <ashaman@flashcom.net>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Getting Soldiers Live  in LA (no spoilers. Haven't read it, how could I have spoilers?)
Date: 07 Aug 2000 10:22:54 -0700

The Barnes and Noble in Old Town Pasadena have between 5-10 copies of
Soldiers Live available for sale. Their number if you want to contact them
is: 626-585-0362.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Wendy Shaffer <wshaffer@uclink4.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Don't want to start
Date: 07 Aug 2000 11:19:59 -0700

>
>On another topic I don't think TOR is doing much to push sales on this book.
>The major chains apparently don't think it will sell. I was in the Barnes &
>Noble in downtown Fort Worth last night and noticed that they only had one
>copy on the shelves. I commented to the cashier that they must have sold a
>lot of them to be down to only one already. Out of curiosity she looked it
>up in the computer and they had only ordered three copies of the book from
>the publisher.
>Richard

Hmmm - that's interesting.  The book was featured in the Barnes and 
Noble newsletter, on the cover (though unfortunately, that issue of 
the newsletter was off the shelves by the time the book actually came 
out.)  I am told that publishers pay for placement in store 
newsletters.  That would imply that Tor is putting some money into 
pushing the book.

The local B&N had about 5 or 6 copies of the book on the shelf when I 
picked it up on Thursday.  That's pretty typical for a book that they 
expect to sell well but not be a runaway best-seller.

I think at this point, the best thing that Tor could do for sales is 
to put out one of those $2.99/$3.99 paperback editions of _The Black 
Company_.  (Del Rey has been doing this with a lot of their long 
running series.)  I'd figure that most of the fans are already going 
to buy _SL_, and a non-fan who picked it up would probably just be 
confused.  So, instead of pushing _Soldiers Live_, push the earlier 
books in the series, and generate new fans.

---wendy

Wendy A. Shaffer			Kirsch Lab
wshaffer@uclink4.berkeley.edu		University of California, Berkeley
(510) 642-7373				529 Stanley Hall
					Berkeley, CA 94720



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: WinB@aol.com
Subject: (glencook-fans) SL Deaths (spoilers)
Date: 07 Aug 2000 12:27:19 EDT

Below...


.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
The Howler had been called the Howler for so long (since before his internment) wouldn't be a howl (pun intended) that Shivetya's cure for him undid some of his powers? Someone mentioned (and I agree) that his death was a little too easy.

Also, I find it interesting that the end of the book proceeded a little too quickly. People died without much mention from Croaker. I've been pondering that all weekend. It almost seems that the book was written and Cook had to wrap up loose ends in a hurry. There might even be an "original ending" somewhere in which people do not die, in case Tor (and Cook) wanted to extend the series.

And speaking of people that died, true to his character, Croaker would have wanted to keep up at least with the oldest of the guys, and there was barely any mention of Cletus and Loftis in the book.

Win
Experiencing SL flashes throughout the day



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Don" <dfgarcia@stic.net>
Subject: (glencook-fans) SL (SPOILERS)
Date: 28 Jul 2000 09:03:44 -0500

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Hey everybody,
    I finished the book yesterday. While I'll agree with you all on some =
things (happy to have Croaker back behind the pen), I don't know if this =
book was the masterpiece some think. I love Glen Cook. I'll buy whatever =
he puts out next. However, I think this episode was missing something. =
Don't get me wrong, I liked the plot twists and I loved how the series =
was resolved. I just felt like the climax to the finale was hurried. All =
of a sudden everyone starts dying. Not much detail is given, they're =
just toast.=20
    Another thing seeming to be missing is the attachment to the =
characters. A lot of the people I just didn't care about. I liked =
Sleepy. Felt sorry for her as captain. Who cares about Survin(sp)! I =
guess Sleepy had her reasons as Croaker said, but Cook didn't get us =
attached to him in any way. When the Lieutenant took over you knew he =
was a no nonsense, take no shit type of a guy. Survin is just ...well.. =
a guy. There was nothing endearing about the guy. When you first meet =
the Captain in "The Black Company" he has his feet on a desk sleeping =
and he's irked that Croaker doesn't follow the chain of command. There =
was something that sucked you in to the Brotherhood. This is just one =
instance I'm choosing to mention. I guess what I'm trying to say is... I =
just never connected to any of the characters. What I loved about Cook =
to begin with was his characters.
    Man, I feel like a heretic. Somebody take me to the cliffside and =
toss me off. Blasphemy! The spark in the books is just dimmer now. I =
though it had come back with Water Sleeps. I felt it there, but not in =
this one. Croaker's "daughters" were nice but they don't replace Hagop, =
Elmo, Silent, Raven, The Old Man (original), and certainly not One Eye =
or Goblin.
    I'm going to read the book again... later. I might like it the =
second time better. Anyway, sorry about the  length. Eric I haven't =
heard if you like the book or not. Let us know.=20

Don=20
"In time, what's deserved always gets served."- COC




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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hey everybody,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I finished the book =
yesterday.=20
While I'll agree with you all on some things (happy to have Croaker back =
behind=20
the pen), I don't know if this book was the masterpiece some think. I =
love Glen=20
Cook. I'll buy whatever he puts out next. However, I think this episode =
was=20
missing something. Don't get me wrong, I liked the plot twists and I =
loved how=20
the series was resolved. I just felt like the climax to the finale was =
hurried.=20
All of a sudden everyone starts dying. Not much detail is given, they're =
just=20
toast. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Another thing =
seeming to be=20
missing is the attachment to the characters. A lot of the people I just =
didn't=20
care about. I liked Sleepy. Felt sorry for her as captain. Who cares =
about=20
Survin(sp)! I guess Sleepy had her reasons as Croaker said, but Cook =
didn't get=20
us attached to him in any way. When the Lieutenant took over you knew he =
was a=20
no nonsense, take no shit type of a guy. Survin is just ...well.. a guy. =
There=20
was nothing endearing about the guy. When you first meet the Captain in =
"The=20
Black Company" he has his feet on a desk sleeping and he's irked that =
Croaker=20
doesn't follow the chain of command. There was something that sucked you =
in to=20
the Brotherhood. This is just one instance I'm choosing to mention. I =
guess what=20
I'm trying to say is... I just never connected to any of the characters. =
What I=20
loved about Cook to begin with was his characters.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Man, I feel like a =
heretic.=20
Somebody take me to the cliffside and toss me off. Blasphemy! The spark =
in the=20
books is just dimmer now. I though it had come back with Water Sleeps. I =
felt it=20
there, but not in this one. Croaker's "daughters" were nice but they =
don't=20
replace Hagop, Elmo, Silent, Raven, The Old Man (original), and =
certainly not=20
One Eye or Goblin.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I'm going to read =
the book=20
again... later. I might like it the second time better. Anyway, sorry =
about=20
the&nbsp; length. Eric I haven't heard if you like the book or not. Let =
us know.=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>Don <BR>"In time, what's deserved =
always gets=20
served."- COC</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_00A9_01BFF872.BC057E20--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "JM Rhodes" <jammers@netzero.net>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Book Covers (was Alternative Authors)
Date: 06 Aug 2000 13:47:27 -0700

Huh, I always wondered if there was some connection between the Cook and the
artist who did the covers... That little tidbit of knowledge slightly
reaffirms my faith in Art Directors (what little I have, having worked with
enough of them).

So now we know why he writes fiction, and not Art Criticism...

John

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of
BaronetCorvu@cs.com
Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2000 12:05 PM


> > I found Cook from the reverse of this. I've been pushing books for a few
> years
>  > and a customer politely listened to my canned diatribe, then said,
"Well,
> have
>  > you read Cook?" He puts Black Company in my hands. Terrible terrible
cover.
>
>  > The rest of the series is even worse.

The funny part is that Glen first saw Keith Berdak's artwork at a
convention,
and loved it and asked him to do the covers, because he felt that they
correctly captured the feel of the series.  Don't know that I agree with
that
sentiment....

MWS





-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Michael Scholl <mdscholl@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL:spoilers don't read unless you are finished
Date: 05 Aug 2000 20:12:04 -0700 (PDT)

--- Eric Herrmann <shpshftr@xmission.com> wrote:

> Croaker is dead. Stick a fork in it, this series is
> done.
> 
> Glen symbolicly killed his symbolic self. No, he
> apparently couldn't physically kill Croaker, so he 
> found a compromise. Croaker's body runs off
> to enjoy the physical pleasures so long denied
> Shivetya. And Croaker gets to explore history and be
> the planet's resident voyeur. Not to mention be
> Lady's source of power.

I have to disagree, Glen not only didn't kill Croaker
he made him (potentially) immortal and omnipresent! 
Croaker has moved from being the annalist of the
company to annalist of multiple dimensions. His story
is far from over. 

Michael

(p.s. while I greatly enjoy the BC series I look
forward to anything to which Glen chooses to turn his
hand.)


> 
> But then again no one knows the exchange happened
> beyond the Voroshk twins.
> 
> Everything that was black is now white. Mogaba isn't
> evil he just has honor.
> Soulcatcher is the misunderstood big sister who
> really loves her younger
> sibling. Kina is a good goddess. Seems everyone had
> to be redeemed in the
> end.
> 
> And what was the answer to Croaker's question on
> page 482? And why was it so
> critical? And when did Croaker first broach the deal
> with Shivetya?
> 
> Eric Herrmann
> <shpshftr@xmission.com>
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.
http://invites.yahoo.com/



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
Date: 07 Aug 2000 12:52:39 -0600

)
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T
DST)
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X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2
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Reply-To: glencook-fans

Although it may be considered SF more than fantasy, a series I've enjoyed
which is also "down and dirty" is the
Long Sun / New Sun books by Gene Wolfe.

As I see it they are a "must read" :-)

Ole


At 23:01 03.08.2000 -0500, you wrote:
>On Thu, 3 Aug 2000, Richard Chilton wrote:
> > first released).  The one he co-wrote with Emma Bull (forget the title)
> > is interesting - I enjoyed it but it was a very different style from th=
e
> > Vlad books.
>
>_Freedom_and_Necessisty_.[sp]  Set in mid-nineteenth century England,
>it's written as a series of letters, and is only very marginally fantasy.
>
> > Speaking of Lackey, her early work is quite good.  The 'Arrows of the
> > Queen' and 'Last Herold Mage' trilogies were well worth reading and
> > re-reading, and her 'Oathsworn' books are based on a merc team.  Then
> > somewhere's along the way she lost her discipline, style, burned out,
> > whatever you call it her quality dropped as her quantity increased.  I
> > really, REALLY hope nothing like that happens to Cook.
>
>YMMV.  I only managed to plod through one Lackey book (the first of the
>Last Herald Mage series, IIRC) and thought it was terrible.
>
>There was a recent thread about Lackey on rec.arts.sf.written; she seems
>to be loopier than a certain Senjak sister.







-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Vonder Haar, Peter C." <Peter.VonderHaar@bakerhughes.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) The FAQ
Date: 07 Aug 2000 14:03:34 -0500 

 Eric,

 Against my better sense, I will volunteer for this task.  Let me know what
other info you need.

> ----------
> From: 	Eric Herrmann[SMTP:shpshftr@xmission.com]
> Reply To: 	glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> Sent: 	Saturday, August 05, 2000 10:07 AM
> To: 	Glen Cook Fans
> Subject: 	(glencook-fans) The FAQ
> 
> So the list has been around now for a year or so. It's about time we had a
> FAQ. The FAQ will be stored on the website with the archives.
> 
> Anybody want to take on this task?
> 
> If you have suggestions for the FAQ send them to me and then I'll forward
> them to whoever accepts the task. I'm just hoping it isn't me. :)
> 
> Eric Herrmann
> <shpshftr@xmission.com>
> 
> 



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ole =D8deg=E5rd <ooe@online.no>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Alternative series
Date: 07 Aug 2000 13:46:31 +0200

Although it may be considered SF more than fantasy, a series I've enjoyed
which is also "down and dirty" is the
Long Sun / New Sun books by Gene Wolfe.

As I see it they are a "must read" :-)

Ole


At 23:01 03.08.2000 -0500, you wrote:
>On Thu, 3 Aug 2000, Richard Chilton wrote:
> > first released).  The one he co-wrote with Emma Bull (forget the title)
> > is interesting - I enjoyed it but it was a very different style from th=
e
> > Vlad books.
>
>_Freedom_and_Necessisty_.[sp]  Set in mid-nineteenth century England,
>it's written as a series of letters, and is only very marginally fantasy.
>
> > Speaking of Lackey, her early work is quite good.  The 'Arrows of the
> > Queen' and 'Last Herold Mage' trilogies were well worth reading and
> > re-reading, and her 'Oathsworn' books are based on a merc team.  Then
> > somewhere's along the way she lost her discipline, style, burned out,
> > whatever you call it her quality dropped as her quantity increased.  I
> > really, REALLY hope nothing like that happens to Cook.
>
>YMMV.  I only managed to plod through one Lackey book (the first of the
>Last Herald Mage series, IIRC) and thought it was terrible.
>
>There was a recent thread about Lackey on rec.arts.sf.written; she seems
>to be loopier than a certain Senjak sister.







-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: WinB@aol.com
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Book Covers (was Alternative Authors)
Date: 07 Aug 2000 15:58:50 EDT

I agree with Steve. I originally heard about the Black Company in a review in Dragon magazine, along with a cover shot. The image of Soulcatcher, well, drew me in and a looked for the book on the shelf.

However, I do feel that the remaining covers have been less than par. The Silver Spike is good, as is Shadow Games. While Shadows Linger and The White Rose do depict images from the books, they could be better executed.

Off the top of my head, I can't remember which book it is, but the one that I assume depicts Jaicur is also evocative of the book's tone.

Win



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Ethesis@aol.com
Subject: (glencook-fans) Lackey
Date: 07 Aug 2000 16:02:22 EDT

In a message dated 8/7/2000 3:00:12 PM Central Daylight Time, ooe@online.no 
writes:

> >There was a recent thread about Lackey on rec.arts.sf.written; she seems
>  >to be loopier than a certain Senjak sister.

That is too bad.  At one time she had a reputation for being rock solid.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Eric Herrmann <shpshftr@xmission.com>
Subject: (glencook-fans) FS: Winter's Dreams
Date: 07 Aug 2000 15:43:18 -0600

For all you Glen Cook fans who like to collect his short fiction or would
like to start, here is a great opportunity to own one of his stories and
donate to a worthwhile charity at the same time. No need to search the dusty
stacks or sweat through a vicious auction.

Below is an offer from Balticon making available their inventory of program
books from 1997 especially for Glen Cook fans. Just follow the directions to
obtain your own copy of "Winter's Dreams." I have.

"Winter's Dreams" is Glen's first return to writing short fiction after 15
years. It is the story of the princess Winter who's dreams have been stolen.
Find out who stole them and why. Set in a fantasy world similar to "Sung in
Blood". <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC2/Books/WntrDrms.html>

My thanks to Balticon and Colette for making these available.

Eric Herrmann
<shpshftr@xmission.com>

*****

Balticon is proud to offer its "BSFAN" from Balticon 31, featuring an
exclusive story from our Guest of Honor from that year, Glen Cook.

Balticon's charity of choice is Reading is FUNdamental, a terrific
national charity that promotes reading in young children, and gives
books to children who could otherwise not afford them.

To request a copy of the BSFAN 31, we ask the following:

1.  Mail your request to the following address:

B31 BSFAN
P. O. Box 686
Baltimore, Maryland  21203-0686

2.  Please enclose with your request the following:  eight (8) postage
stamps to cover mailing costs, and a donation made payable to Reading is
FUNDamental (RIF) in whatever amount you can afford.  Please also make
sure the address you want your book mailed to is clearly stated.

Books will be mailed out within two weeks of receipt of the reqest, and
are on a first come first serve basis.

If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to e-mail me at
<jrshark@access.digex.net>.  Thank you very much for your supprt of RIF.

--Colette H. Fozard
  RIF Activities Coordinator
  Balticon

*****




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Kevin Haley" <purge@fuse.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL (SPOILERS)
Date: 07 Aug 2000 19:02:08 -0400

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C000A1.FBF75940
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Just to let you guys know on ebay there is a HB copy of The annals of =
the black company.  The first 3 novels in one book.  Good condition.  =
Search for Glen Cook.
Im not bidding on it since i have 1. =3D) 9 days left on the =
auction...at 5.99 right
now.


Kevin
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Don=20
  To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com=20
  Sent: Friday, July 28, 2000 10:03 AM
  Subject: (glencook-fans) SL (SPOILERS)


  Hey everybody,
      I finished the book yesterday. While I'll agree with you all on =
some things (happy to have Croaker back behind the pen), I don't know if =
this book was the masterpiece some think. I love Glen Cook. I'll buy =
whatever he puts out next. However, I think this episode was missing =
something. Don't get me wrong, I liked the plot twists and I loved how =
the series was resolved. I just felt like the climax to the finale was =
hurried. All of a sudden everyone starts dying. Not much detail is =
given, they're just toast.=20
      Another thing seeming to be missing is the attachment to the =
characters. A lot of the people I just didn't care about. I liked =
Sleepy. Felt sorry for her as captain. Who cares about Survin(sp)! I =
guess Sleepy had her reasons as Croaker said, but Cook didn't get us =
attached to him in any way. When the Lieutenant took over you knew he =
was a no nonsense, take no shit type of a guy. Survin is just ...well.. =
a guy. There was nothing endearing about the guy. When you first meet =
the Captain in "The Black Company" he has his feet on a desk sleeping =
and he's irked that Croaker doesn't follow the chain of command. There =
was something that sucked you in to the Brotherhood. This is just one =
instance I'm choosing to mention. I guess what I'm trying to say is... I =
just never connected to any of the characters. What I loved about Cook =
to begin with was his characters.
      Man, I feel like a heretic. Somebody take me to the cliffside and =
toss me off. Blasphemy! The spark in the books is just dimmer now. I =
though it had come back with Water Sleeps. I felt it there, but not in =
this one. Croaker's "daughters" were nice but they don't replace Hagop, =
Elmo, Silent, Raven, The Old Man (original), and certainly not One Eye =
or Goblin.
      I'm going to read the book again... later. I might like it the =
second time better. Anyway, sorry about the  length. Eric I haven't =
heard if you like the book or not. Let us know.=20

  Don=20
  "In time, what's deserved always gets served."- COC

  =20


------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C000A1.FBF75940
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Just to let you guys know on ebay there =
is a HB=20
copy of The annals of the black company.&nbsp; The first 3 novels in one =

book.&nbsp; Good condition.&nbsp; Search for Glen Cook.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Im not bidding on it since i have 1. =
=3D)&nbsp;9 days=20
left on the auction...at 5.99 right</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>now.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Kevin</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:dfgarcia@stic.net" title=3Ddfgarcia@stic.net>Don</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com"=20
  =
title=3Dglencook-fans@lists.xmission.com>glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, July 28, 2000 =
10:03=20
AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> (glencook-fans) SL=20
  (SPOILERS)</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hey everybody,</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I finished the =
book yesterday.=20
  While I'll agree with you all on some things (happy to have Croaker =
back=20
  behind the pen), I don't know if this book was the masterpiece some =
think. I=20
  love Glen Cook. I'll buy whatever he puts out next. However, I think =
this=20
  episode was missing something. Don't get me wrong, I liked the plot =
twists and=20
  I loved how the series was resolved. I just felt like the climax to =
the finale=20
  was hurried. All of a sudden everyone starts dying. Not much detail is =
given,=20
  they're just toast. </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Another thing =
seeming to be=20
  missing is the attachment to the characters. A lot of the people I =
just didn't=20
  care about. I liked Sleepy. Felt sorry for her as captain. Who cares =
about=20
  Survin(sp)! I guess Sleepy had her reasons as Croaker said, but Cook =
didn't=20
  get us attached to him in any way. When the Lieutenant took over you =
knew he=20
  was a no nonsense, take no shit type of a guy. Survin is just =
...well.. a guy.=20
  There was nothing endearing about the guy. When you first meet the =
Captain in=20
  "The Black Company" he has his feet on a desk sleeping and he's irked =
that=20
  Croaker doesn't follow the chain of command. There was something that =
sucked=20
  you in to the Brotherhood. This is just one instance I'm choosing to =
mention.=20
  I guess what I'm trying to say is... I just never connected to any of =
the=20
  characters. What I loved about Cook to begin with was his=20
  characters.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Man, I feel like a =
heretic.=20
  Somebody take me to the cliffside and toss me off. Blasphemy! The =
spark in the=20
  books is just dimmer now. I though it had come back with Water Sleeps. =
I felt=20
  it there, but not in this one. Croaker's "daughters" were nice but =
they don't=20
  replace Hagop, Elmo, Silent, Raven, The Old Man (original), and =
certainly not=20
  One Eye or Goblin.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I'm going to read =
the book=20
  again... later. I might like it the second time better. Anyway, sorry =
about=20
  the&nbsp; length. Eric I haven't heard if you like the book or not. =
Let us=20
  know. </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>Don <BR>"In time, what's deserved =
always gets=20
  served."- COC</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C000A1.FBF75940--




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: CookReader@aol.com
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) The FAQ
Date: 07 Aug 2000 20:08:44 EDT


In a message dated 8/7/00 8:20:49 AM, chrome@wwisp.com writes:

>Are you wanting a Glen Cook FAQ, or looking to compile one specific to
>this ListServ?

Wouldn't they be the same thing? If not, I would say, Cook in general
so it could be posted to other newsgroups. What do you see as the
difference?

christopher....



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Richard Chilton <rchilton@auracom.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) The FAQ
Date: 07 Aug 2000 21:25:10 -0300

CookReader@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 8/7/00 8:20:49 AM, chrome@wwisp.com writes:
> 
> >Are you wanting a Glen Cook FAQ, or looking to compile one specific to
> >this ListServ?
> 
> Wouldn't they be the same thing? If not, I would say, Cook in general
> so it could be posted to other newsgroups. What do you see as the
> difference?
> 

It could be the same FAQ - with one of the questions being:
Q - How can I contact other Glen Cook fans?
A - details on the mailing list.

Or a section called Glen Cook on the Web, with questions who's answers
are the main web sites and the details about the list

Richard



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Holy Paladin" <blackcompany999@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL no spoilers
Date: 07 Aug 2000 20:42:30 EDT

hey i'll probably be finished with SL in two days at the most. Ive had it 
one night and im more than half way through so it'll be no time but i must 
say im already dissapointed becuz i waited so long for this book and i 
finish it in a matter of days. Its great though and i hope it isn't the last 
of the BC and it wont be to long of a wait till the next one.
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Aaron Contreras <Aaron.Contreras@sierra.com>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Howdy.
Date: 07 Aug 2000 17:58:37 -0700 


Heya. Just wanted to say 'hi' to everyone.  Glad I finally found a Glen Cook
list!  Just finished Soldier's Live and I had to get more opinions on what
meant what.

I'm one of those types who reads every new Black Company book in less than a
day after getting it into my grubby little hands.  So I forget lots of
stuff.

Regards,

Aaron



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: CookReader@aol.com
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) The FAQ
Date: 07 Aug 2000 21:10:28 EDT


In a message dated 8/7/00 1:59:31 PM, Peter.VonderHaar@bakerhughes.com writes:

>Against my better sense, I will volunteer for this task.  Let me know
>what other info you need.

Well, since it was my idea.... :)

Seriously, I don't want the job. I'm one of those type of people who is good
at identifying a problem--I'm even pretty good at coming up with solutions -- 
just
don't look to me to implement them.

I'll give you my efforts if you like (or will just offer criticism if that's 
the
route you'd like to go). Let me know. I'm willing to help, I just don't want 
to
bear the responsibility of maintaining it.

Most of the material is on Eric's website, but you can't post a website to
newsgroups. A FAQ you can. You and I (or you alone) should be able to hammer
out a 0.0 draft, post it to the list for comments, and the FAQ would be born.

Eric has all the discussions on this list archived, I've got many of the rasfw
posts. Let's make a go of it. People don't like it, they can say so and 
someone
else can take over.

If you don't want help, just say so, and I'll wait until you post you first 
efforts
and then I'll tear it apart. :)

christopher...

p.s. I helped write the original alt.gothic FAQ nearly a decade ago (it's 
even been
translated to German!). I'm also a professional nonfiction writer, so I have 
the
credentials. I just don't have the time I'd like in a consistent manner.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David George" <dsgeorge@mindspring.com>
Subject: (glencook-fans) OT and then back on it
Date: 07 Aug 2000 20:34:56 -0500

Hey, first the off topic then I'll try to draw it back on topic.  This is a
brief return of the perennial question: what other authors might I like if I
like Glen Cook.  I've heard George RR Martin mentioned a few times and just
noticed that the third book in his Song of Ice and Fire series is about to
come out.  Kewl, since I haven't read the first two, I can track them down
and be ready for it.  I've always liked his SF and horror stuff.  The new
one is called A Storm of Swords and according to Amazon it will be released
Oct 31 this year.

And to bring it back on topic, the search for "Cooklike" fiction is
something I suspect we all go through.  It can be frustrating on the list
when a call for "Cooklike" results in a whole bunch of mail that is not
particularly interesting.  It is even worse when it turns into a debate or
flame war trashing one writer or another.  No names please.

And Yet!  Without the recommendations of Lich and several others, it would
surely have taken me a lot longer to crack open David Gemmell, whose work I
have since devoured--he's moved to the must-buy list for me.  Likewise,
George RR Martin's fantasy is now in my sights.  And there are lots of
writers I might have volunteered the last time the call for Cooklike came
out, but I held back because I wanted to stay (mostly) on topic.

But really, this is sort of on-topic and what I'd like to recommend is that
we make space for it.  I don't mind reading a post recommending a writer
other than Cook on this list if the poster can relate why they think other
Cook fans would like that writer too.  In other words, what is Cooklike
about that writer?  It might even make a good web page, compiled
recommendations with the reasons why.  I hereby submit the suggestion.  I
think it would be cool on Eric's site because Eric's site is cool and is
pretty comprehensive.  But Eric might not like the idea either.  And at the
least, it would give us someplace (other than the list archive) to point
people new to the list when the next call for "something Cooklike" comes
round.  Which it surely will.

DG




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Eric Herrmann <shpshftr@xmission.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT and then back on it
Date: 07 Aug 2000 19:57:43 -0600

on 8/7/00 7:34 PM, David George at dsgeorge@mindspring.com wrote:

> But really, this is sort of on-topic and what I'd like to recommend is that
> we make space for it.  I don't mind reading a post recommending a writer
> other than Cook on this list if the poster can relate why they think other
> Cook fans would like that writer too.  In other words, what is Cooklike
> about that writer?  It might even make a good web page, compiled
> recommendations with the reasons why.  I hereby submit the suggestion.  I
> think it would be cool on Eric's site because Eric's site is cool and is
> pretty comprehensive.  But Eric might not like the idea either.  And at the
> least, it would give us someplace (other than the list archive) to point
> people new to the list when the next call for "something Cooklike" comes
> round.  Which it surely will.

Why don't we try putting it in the FAQ first. If it grows beyond that then
we can look at creating a seperate page.

Eric Herrmann
<shpshftr@xmission.com>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Eric Herrmann <shpshftr@xmission.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) The FAQ
Date: 07 Aug 2000 20:14:50 -0600

on 8/7/00 1:03 PM, Vonder Haar, Peter C. at Peter.VonderHaar@bakerhughes.com
wrote:

> Against my better sense, I will volunteer for this task.  Let me know what
> other info you need.

By the authority of owning this list, I make Peter the chief FAQ writer
until his better sense wins or he loses all sense. Peter is free to
conscript assistants as necessary.

The FAQ is not necessarily a bibliography or a biography. It is simply the
frequently asked questions (FAQ) on this list. It is a dynamic document that
will grow as questions get asked.

The old-timers on this list should be able to rattle off a dozen without
even needing to consult the archives. You know the questions that scream
"newbie". It is exactly these questions we want in the FAQ.

If you have FAQ suggestions with or without the answer, send it to Peter
<Peter.VonderHaar@bakerhughes.com>.

Also let's move the topic of the FAQ to a private discussion until we have a
v0.1 release for discussion. That shouldn't take too long. <G>

Eric Herrmann
<shpshftr@xmission.com>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Harris <harrissg@slu.edu>
Subject: (glencook-fans) "Soldiers Live"--where's it come from?
Date: 07 Aug 2000 22:29:46 -0500

Hi, all,

I'm brand new here, just found out about this list from a web search I
did on "Soldiers Live".

Not the book--I know that--but the phrase:  "Soldiers live--and wonder
why." 

Sounds familar to me, but I can't locate it in either of my "familar
quotations" books or on any of the web search engines.  (Well there was
a line "Soldiers live to wonder why" in a 4-liner somebody posted
somewhere, but that's not the same thing, and it wasn't a famous poem,
as it was just made up for that occasion, I tihnk.)

Anyone have a clue? 

Maybe I should just ask Glen Cook; he lives around here somewheres...

Steve



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rich Kim <rich-kim@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL Sequel (spoilers)
Date: 07 Aug 2000 23:04:20 +0000

On Monday, August 07 2000, 16:14:52 Eric Herrmann wrote:

>I think the sequel is the Senjak sisters. Now that the men they competed for
>(Dominator and Croaker) are no longer available and Dorotea is the equal in
>power to Sylith, they patch up their differences and go shopping.
>
I guess I'm confused, but doesn't Catcher call Lady 'Ardath' on page 219?  Is 
that Lady's true name, is it a typo, or did I miss something?




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Eric Herrmann <shpshftr@xmission.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL Sequel (spoilers)
Date: 07 Aug 2000 22:40:36 -0600


>> I think the sequel is the Senjak sisters. Now that the men they competed for
>> (Dominator and Croaker) are no longer available and Dorotea is the equal in
>> power to Sylith, they patch up their differences and go shopping.
>> 
> I guess I'm confused, but doesn't Catcher call Lady 'Ardath' on page 219?  Is
> that Lady's true name, is it a typo, or did I miss something?

It's either yet another typo or Catcher doesn't know her sister's name.
Silent clearly uses the name Dorotea when nameing Lady. The Dominator tried
Ardath and Sylith. Limper tried Credence.

Somewhere else in SL, Lady refers to Catcher as Sylith. Perhaps even Lady
was wrong on that one as well.

Eric Herrmann
<shpshftr@xmission.com>




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Malik Coates <malikcoates@flashmail.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL Sequel (spoilers)
Date: 07 Aug 2000 21:43:25 -0700

The Lady of Charm was named on P. 308 of "The White Rose".  If she's
called anything else it's either a typo or an character not really
knowing.

Rich Kim wrote:
> 
> On Monday, August 07 2000, 16:14:52 Eric Herrmann wrote:
> 
> >I think the sequel is the Senjak sisters. Now that the men they competed for
> >(Dominator and Croaker) are no longer available and Dorotea is the equal in
> >power to Sylith, they patch up their differences and go shopping.
> >
> I guess I'm confused, but doesn't Catcher call Lady 'Ardath' on page 219?  Is
> that Lady's true name, is it a typo, or did I miss something?

-- 
Right on! Right On! Shake your money maker!... Can we hit it and quit
it?
 ==James Brown.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Quint Ringsak <chirpy@rupert.honors.montana.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL Sequel (spoilers)
Date: 07 Aug 2000 22:53:31 -0600 (MDT)

	I'm new to the list, but thought I'd put in my two bits.
Wouldn't the reason for Catcher's confusion be the same as that of the
Dominator, who also called Lady  'Ardath' in "Shadows Linger"? I
remember reading that Lady swapped identities with one of her sisters at
some point during her youth, thus all the confusion.

On Mon, 7 Aug 2000, Malik Coates wrote:
> The Lady of Charm was named on P. 308 of "The White Rose".  If she's
> called anything else it's either a typo or an character not really
> knowing.
> 
> > On Monday, August 07 2000, 16:14:52 Eric Herrmann wrote:
> > 
> > I guess I'm confused, but doesn't Catcher call Lady 'Ardath' on page 219?  Is
> > that Lady's true name, is it a typo, or did I miss something?
> 

-- 
<=-=-=Quint Ringsak-student and meme pusher=-=chirpy@honors.montana.edu=-=-=>
  Conquest's Law: You can predict the behavior of an organization by 
                  assuming that it is controlled by a secret cabal of
		  its enemies bent on discrediting it.




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steve Harris <harrissg@slu.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) OT and then back on it
Date: 08 Aug 2000 00:08:59 -0500

David,

A suggestion as to what makes something "Cooklike":

A gritty and competently realized realism in what is otherwise a fantasy setting.

That, I think, is the only similarity between Martin's Song of Ice and
Fire and Cook's Black Company; and I agree that the two series are
likely to be enjoyed by the same people.  

Steve



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Eric Herrmann <shpshftr@xmission.com>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Test Message 1 Please Ignore
Date: 08 Aug 2000 01:02:11 -0600

Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test
Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test
Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test
Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test
Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test
Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test
Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test
Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test
Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test
Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test
Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test
Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test
Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test
Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test
Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test
Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test


=======================================================================
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 visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Eric Herrmann <shpshftr@xmission.com>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Test Message 2 Please Ignore
Date: 08 Aug 2000 01:03:22 -0600

Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test
Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test
Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test
Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test
Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test
Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test
Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test
Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test
Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test
Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test
Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test
Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test
Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test
Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test
Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test
Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test Test


=======================================================================
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 visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Barry Cadwgan <bcadwgan@fl.net.au>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) "Soldiers Live"--where's it come from?
Date: 08 Aug 2000 18:05:50 +1000

Steve Harris wrote:
> 
> Hi, all,
> 
> I'm brand new here, just found out about this list from a web search I
> did on "Soldiers Live".
> 
> Not the book--I know that--but the phrase:  "Soldiers live--and wonder
> why."
> 
> Sounds familar to me, but I can't locate it in either of my "familar
> quotations" books or on any of the web search engines.  (Well there was
> a line "Soldiers live to wonder why" in a 4-liner somebody posted
> somewhere, but that's not the same thing, and it wasn't a famous poem,
> as it was just made up for that occasion, I tihnk.)

I remember it as something the recently stroke stricken One Eye says to
Sleepy in 'Water Sleeps'.

-- 
Barry Cadwgan ( BCADWGAN@FL.NET.AU )
http://www.users.fl.net.au/~bcadwgan/homepage.htm
"The end does not justify the means.  
 The end is the sum of the means,
 as the road travelled determines the destination." 
Valijon Starbringer (Hellflower Trilogy, Eluki bes Shahar)

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Vonder Haar, Peter C." <Peter.VonderHaar@bakerhughes.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) The FAQ
Date: 08 Aug 2000 09:07:44 -0500 

 I know Eric wanted to make this private, and I agree, I just wanted to make
one last solicitation for suggestions before I get down to it (I was out of
town yesterday or I would've written sooner).  Currently, I'm scanning the
archives to come up with additional questions.
 Any advice is welcome.  Christopher, you mentioned you had suggestions.
I'm all ears.
 I should get v 0.0 banged out by the end of the week.  I've been pretty
busy at work, or I'd try to get it out sooner.

 Pete

> ----------
> From: 	Eric Herrmann[SMTP:shpshftr@xmission.com]
> Reply To: 	glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> Sent: 	Monday, August 07, 2000 9:14 PM
> To: 	glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: 	Re: (glencook-fans) The FAQ
> 
> on 8/7/00 1:03 PM, Vonder Haar, Peter C. at
> Peter.VonderHaar@bakerhughes.com
> wrote:
> 
> > Against my better sense, I will volunteer for this task.  Let me know
> what
> > other info you need.
> 
> By the authority of owning this list, I make Peter the chief FAQ writer
> until his better sense wins or he loses all sense. Peter is free to
> conscript assistants as necessary.
> 
> The FAQ is not necessarily a bibliography or a biography. It is simply the
> frequently asked questions (FAQ) on this list. It is a dynamic document
> that
> will grow as questions get asked.
> 
> The old-timers on this list should be able to rattle off a dozen without
> even needing to consult the archives. You know the questions that scream
> "newbie". It is exactly these questions we want in the FAQ.
> 
> If you have FAQ suggestions with or without the answer, send it to Peter
> <Peter.VonderHaar@bakerhughes.com>.
> 
> Also let's move the topic of the FAQ to a private discussion until we have
> a
> v0.1 release for discussion. That shouldn't take too long. <G>
> 
> Eric Herrmann
> <shpshftr@xmission.com>
> 
> 

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Eric Herrmann <shpshftr@xmission.com>
Subject: (glencook-fans) SL Croaker (Spoilers)
Date: 08 Aug 2000 10:52:13 -700


Before Croaker makes the deal with Shivetya he talks about how he sees
that his end is near. I wish I had the book in front of me. Is he just
talking about old age? Or that the odds are growing that he will die  
in battle? or something else? It almost seemed like something else.   
Did anyone else pick up on that?                                      
                                                                      
Eric Herrmann                                                         
<shpshftr@xmission.com>                                               
                                                                      
PS: If the message seems a little odd/weak that is because I'm at work
and need to create some traffic on the list so that tech support  can 
work out some more bugs with digesting. Please help out if you can by 
sending messages to the list.w                                        

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matthew Roche <rocheml@cerebusnm.com>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Dread Empire and Planning
Date: 08 Aug 2000 11:10:51 -0600 

here's another weak message, but a request for posts is a request for
posts...

while my wife is reading soldiers live, i've been making my way through the
dread empire books. i completed my collection online a month or so ago and
saved these for last. i decided to read them in the order in which they were
written and am very glad that i did. i read through the main trilogy first,
and although it was ok, i thought it was kind of weak for cook, even for
early cook. then i read the two prequels, and just loved them. stronger
characterizations, more concrete plot (less annoying jumping around between
timelines without dates on the chapter starting pages...) and just very well
written. well, this inspired me to go back and read the trilogy before
starting the sequels, and i'm also glad i did that. now that i know the
background that the middle three books assume the trilogy is much better,
and my respect for cook as a writer is much greater. even though he wrote
the prequels years (i'm also at work so i don't have them here for
comparison) after the actual trilogy, it is so obvious that he plotted out
the entire story ahead of time. it's great.

has anyone else had the same impression? when i first started reading
glittering stone i thought 'god, doesn't he plot out what he wants to
happen? it's obvious he had no idea how this was going to end when he
started it...' although i've not yet read the end of glittering stone,
perhaps now i'll need to go back and start at the very beginning to see if
there's not something to change my mind.

comments? arguments? agreement?

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Timothy P. Taylor" <tptaylor@genuity.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) SL Croaker (Spoilers)
Date: 08 Aug 2000 13:10:15 -0400

Eric;

	I believe Croaker was referring mostly to the odds of him surviving for so
long as opposed to all those who had fallen.  At least thats my take on it.

	I did start to have a sneaking suspicion that Croaker was very interested
in Shivetya for the knowledge that he contained back in Water Sleeps...can't
explain it, but for me it was there.

	In terms of the series as a whole, this one was pretty damn good imho.
Yes, some folks 2were "offed" with no more than a passing mention...of all
the disappointments, I really REALLY thought Otto and HAgpop would go
through one battle unscathed...only then to die.

	I really like the way the company has mutated through the series...and I
still do see it having room for another book or possible series of books.
One intriguing (to me) senario would be the company being the guardians of
the nameless fortress and the path between the worlds, espcially now that
the shadow menace seems to be down to more manageable size.

My $.02 worth!

Timothy Taylor


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Eric
> Herrmann
> Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 1:52 PM
> To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: (glencook-fans) SL Croaker (Spoilers)
>
>
>
> Before Croaker makes the deal with Shivetya he talks about how he sees
> that his end is near. I wish I had the book in front of me. Is he just
> talking about old age? Or that the odds are growing that he will die
> in battle? or something else? It almost seemed like something else.
> Did anyone else pick up on that?
>
> Eric Herrmann
> <shpshftr@xmission.com>
>
> PS: If the message seems a little odd/weak that is because I'm at work
> and need to create some traffic on the list so that tech support  can
> work out some more bugs with digesting. Please help out if you can by
> sending messages to the list.w
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Eric Herrmann <shpshftr@xmission.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Dread Empire and Planning
Date: 08 Aug 2000 11:32:32 -700


                                                                      
> has anyone else had the same impression? when i first started       
reading                                                               
> gli ttering stone i thought 'god, doesn't he plot out what he wants 
to                                                                    
> happen? it's obvious he had no idea how this was going to end when  
he                                                                    
> started it...' although i've not yet read the end of glittering     
stone,                                                                
> perhaps now i'll need to go back and star t at the very beginning to
see if                                                                
> there's not something to change my mind.                            
                                                                      
In Reap the East Wind, Varthlokkur remarks that he now knows why he   
never liked teleporting. (And I'd have to agree with him given the    
circumstances.) And I thought it sounded a little generous and        
contrived at the time. Several years later I was rereading either     
Shadow Falling or October's Baby when I read Varthlokkur remarking    
about not liking to teleport because he thought there was something   
alive in there. I was floored. Glen had planned this plot point years 
in advance and I had forgotten it.                                    
                                                                      
Eric Herrmann                                                         
<shpshftr@xmission.com>a                                              

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: WinB@aol.com
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL Croaker (Spoilers)
Date: 08 Aug 2000 14:27:59 EDT

I noticed that too. It almost seemed as if he realized that there was something wrong. However, it don't recall any cues prior to that (headaches, etc.) other than his complaints about his eye and hand. Perhaps the still did more damage that he first thought?

Win

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: WinB@aol.com
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) SL Croaker (Spoilers)
Date: 08 Aug 2000 14:29:38 EDT

I like the idea of the guardian bit. As time goes on, news of the Plain should reach the other worlds and traffic could start again.

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: CookReader@aol.com
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL Croaker (Spoilers)
Date: 08 Aug 2000 19:43:47 EDT


In a message dated 8/8/00 11:53:29 AM, shpshftr@xmission.com writes:

>Before Croaker makes the deal with Shivetya he talks about how he sees
>that his end is near. I wish I had the book in front of me. Is he just
>talking about old age? Or that the odds are growing that he will die  
>in battle? or something else? It almost seemed like something else.   
>Did anyone else pick up on that?   

I assumed it was something worse, but then my mother's been under
treatment for two different types of cancer. Also, I doubt that he'd
have been so fatalistic about it had it only been age. There would have
been lines like, "At best he could count on 20 years of mortality, but
that should be an eye blink," or whatever, Croaker was a doctor, he
had to know he was on the way out quickly or it would not have been
a concern.

christopher....


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Pardoz" <pardoz@io.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Dread Empire and Planning
Date: 08 Aug 2000 19:20:24 -0400

On Tue, 8 Aug 2000 11:10:51 -0600, Matthew Roche wrote:

[snip]...this inspired me to go back and read the trilogy before
>starting the sequels, and i'm also glad i did that. now that i know the
>background that the middle three books assume the trilogy is much better,

	Ayep.  I generally recommend reading stuff in publication
order, but the DE series is an exception - the middle three really read
much better if you've read the "prequels" first, IMO.

>it is so obvious that he plotted out
>the entire story ahead of time. it's great.
>
>has anyone else had the same impression? 

	Definitely.  The whole thing ticks like a well-oiled watch. 
You can see the same thing at work in _A Matter of Time_ or the
"Starfishers" trilogy (Book 1's framing sequence begins as the last
lines of the end of Book 3).

>when i first started reading
>glittering stone i thought 'god, doesn't he plot out what he wants to
>happen? it's obvious he had no idea how this was going to end when he
>started it...' 

	My understanding is that the answer to that one is both yes and
no - yes, he knew how it was going to end when he started; no the
ending we ended up with wasn't it.  Somewhere between finishing _Dreams
of Steel_ and beginning _Glittering Stone_ (the novel, which was
supposed to be the conclusion of the trilogy) he decided he no longer
liked the original plan, chucked it, and wrote _Bleak Seasons_ instead.
 Unfortunately it showed.  (OK, I haven't finished "Glittering Stone:
the trilogy" yet: I've decided to wait for _SL_ in paperback, this
being only the second time since I discovered Cook almost twenty years
ago that I haven't picked up a new Cook pretty much the second it hit
the shelves.  The first time was _Water Sleeps_, and having finally
read the paperback I'm glad I waited.)


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Don" <dfgarcia@stic.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Dread Empire and Planning
Date: 30 Jul 2000 13:45:37 -0500

I also remember there being something in the original DE trilogy referring
to one of the Reasons Houron was so pissed at the Disciple. It said
something about Nasef the Scourge of God killing Hourons's Teacher (insert
name) who he saw as a father. When I read it I got chills. For anybody who
has not read the series I recommend reading in series chronology. It lends
points of reference to the multitude of characters in the original trilogy.

Don
"In time, what's deserved always gets served."- COC


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 12:10 PM


> here's another weak message, but a request for posts is a request for
> posts...
>
> while my wife is reading soldiers live, i've been making my way through
the
> dread empire books. i completed my collection online a month or so ago and
> saved these for last. i decided to read them in the order in which they
were
> written and am very glad that i did. i read through the main trilogy
first,
> and although it was ok, i thought it was kind of weak for cook, even for
> early cook. then i read the two prequels, and just loved them. stronger
> characterizations, more concrete plot (less annoying jumping around
between
> timelines without dates on the chapter starting pages...) and just very
well
> written. well, this inspired me to go back and read the trilogy before
> starting the sequels, and i'm also glad i did that. now that i know the
> background that the middle three books assume the trilogy is much better,
> and my respect for cook as a writer is much greater. even though he wrote
> the prequels years (i'm also at work so i don't have them here for
> comparison) after the actual trilogy, it is so obvious that he plotted out
> the entire story ahead of time. it's great.
>
> has anyone else had the same impression? when i first started reading
> glittering stone i thought 'god, doesn't he plot out what he wants to
> happen? it's obvious he had no idea how this was going to end when he
> started it...' although i've not yet read the end of glittering stone,
> perhaps now i'll need to go back and start at the very beginning to see if
> there's not something to change my mind.
>
> comments? arguments? agreement?
>
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>


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From: Lee Childs <childsl@earthlink.net>
Subject: (glencook-fans) SL: Ardath
Date: 08 Aug 2000 19:26:48 -0700


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Lady used the name Ardath when she went into the Hole in The White Rose.  I expect
that Croaker used the name 'Ardath' as an endearment and a shared joke.

THE WHITE ROSE page 234
"She would train herself to mortal ways during out ride so she would make no
mistake once we reached the Hole."
"The woman had guts."
"[Croaker said,] 'What name will you use?'"
"[The Lady said,] 'I think Ardath.'"

Lee Childs


Eric Herrmann wrote:

> >> I think the sequel is the Senjak sisters. Now that the men they competed for
> >> (Dominator and Croaker) are no longer available and Dorotea is the equal in
> >> power to Sylith, they patch up their differences and go shopping.
> >>
> > I guess I'm confused, but doesn't Catcher call Lady 'Ardath' on page 219?  Is
> > that Lady's true name, is it a typo, or did I miss something?
>
> It's either yet another typo or Catcher doesn't know her sister's name.
> Silent clearly uses the name Dorotea when nameing Lady. The Dominator tried
> Ardath and Sylith. Limper tried Credence.
>
> Somewhere else in SL, Lady refers to Catcher as Sylith. Perhaps even Lady
> was wrong on that one as well.
>
> Eric Herrmann
> <shpshftr@xmission.com>



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<HTML>
Lady used the name Ardath when she went into the Hole in <U>The White Rose</U>.&nbsp;
I expect that Croaker used the name 'Ardath' as an endearment and a shared
joke.

<P>THE WHITE ROSE page 234
<BR>"She would train herself to mortal ways during out ride so she would
make no mistake once we reached the Hole."
<BR>"The woman had guts."
<BR>"[Croaker said,] 'What name will you use?'"
<BR>"[The Lady said,] 'I think Ardath.'"

<P>Lee Childs
<BR>&nbsp;

<P>Eric Herrmann wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>>> I think the sequel is the Senjak sisters. Now
that the men they competed for
<BR>>> (Dominator and Croaker) are no longer available and Dorotea is the
equal in
<BR>>> power to Sylith, they patch up their differences and go shopping.
<BR>>>
<BR>> I guess I'm confused, but doesn't Catcher call Lady 'Ardath' on page
219?&nbsp; Is
<BR>> that Lady's true name, is it a typo, or did I miss something?

<P>It's either yet another typo or Catcher doesn't know her sister's name.
<BR>Silent clearly uses the name Dorotea when nameing Lady. The Dominator
tried
<BR>Ardath and Sylith. Limper tried Credence.

<P>Somewhere else in SL, Lady refers to Catcher as Sylith. Perhaps even
Lady
<BR>was wrong on that one as well.

<P>Eric Herrmann
<BR>&lt;shpshftr@xmission.com></BLOCKQUOTE>
&nbsp;</HTML>

--------------ED1D620E54CDD2C9239FFEFF--


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From: "Brooke A. Wheeler" <bawheeler@MEDIAONE.NET>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Don't want to start
Date: 08 Aug 2000 21:02:50 -0700

I know what you mean. I'll be going on vacation in a couple of weeks and am
saving my copy 'til I get on the plane (or at least to the airport.) I read the
first 10 pages or so, and the anticipation is killing me. It remains to be seen
whether I'll be able to control myself and not read it but I'll certainly try.
One thing that has helped was that Turtledove's new "Great War" book just came
out, so I've had that to read, plus a couple of library books.

Richard Gruver wrote:
> 
> My amazon order arrived on Monday and SL is still sitting on my table
> unread. I know if I start reading it I will consume it wolfishly and then it
> will be over, and I really don't want it to be over.

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From: "Brooke A. Wheeler" <bawheeler@MEDIAONE.NET>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Questions for Cook
Date: 08 Aug 2000 21:08:53 -0700

I'll be attending Worldcon 2000 in Chicago from Aug 31st - Sep 4th. Does anyone
have any questions they want to ask Glen Cook regarding his new book or any of
his other books? If so let me know via personal email. However, PLEASE if your
question contain spoilers for SL, note it in the title of the email... I haven't
read it yet and if I know in advance, I can just download any spoilers to my
laptop to read once I arrive... I'll be reading SL on the plane so I'll be
finished by the time I read the spoilers that way. Top 5 or so questions I'll
try to ask Cook and post the answers here when I get back.

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From: "Kevin Valentine" <kevin@physchem.ox.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Questions for Cook
Date: 09 Aug 2000 08:47:14 +0100

I know this is probably an old question, but has he got any plans to get
'The Dragon Never Sleeps' re-released?  It appears to be an excellent and
popular book, however as it is out of print it is very hard to get hold of.
There are quite a few publishers reprinting out of print SF books, so one of
them might be interested.  For his many international fans who do not want
to order online, the only way to get hold of his books is to order the
American copies through a local bookstore.  However if they are out of print
this is impossible.

Thanks

Kevin Valentine
kevin@physchem.ox.ac.uk

PS If anybody knows the email address of ROC or TOR which might get a reply
about this then let me know.



> I'll be attending Worldcon 2000 in Chicago from Aug 31st - Sep 4th. Does
anyone
> have any questions they want to ask Glen Cook regarding his new book or
any of
> his other books? If so let me know via personal email. However, PLEASE if
your
> question contain spoilers for SL, note it in the title of the email... I
haven't
> read it yet and if I know in advance, I can just download any spoilers to
my
> laptop to read once I arrive... I'll be reading SL on the plane so I'll be
> finished by the time I read the spoilers that way. Top 5 or so questions
I'll
> try to ask Cook and post the answers here when I get back.



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From: "Don" <dfgarcia@stic.net>
Subject: (glencook-fans) SL (no spoilers)
Date: 31 Jul 2000 01:59:49 -0500

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Does anyone know how SL is selling?=20

Don=20
"In time, what's deserved always gets served."- COC



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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Does anyone know how SL is selling? =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>Don <BR>"In time, what's deserved =
always gets=20
served."- COC</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: Aaron Contreras <Aaron.Contreras@sierra.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) SL (no spoilers)
Date: 09 Aug 2000 07:40:15 -0700 

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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No, I really don't.  But I'd imagine it is doing well, or at least better.
GC's popularity is on the rise as more and more authors and game designers
continue to rob his ideas. 
He really is surprisingly obscure for someone who has had his creative
content ripped off so much.
 
I remember the biggest factor in being really attracted instantly to the BC
series (aside from his style of writing, and all that) was his mixing of
really, really high fantasy with really, really low fantasy.  It has
disappointed me somewhat that magic became steadily more and more
commonplace and less awe-inspiring for the annalists...though after ten
books it would be hard to avoid.
 
Anyone else think Cook made a huge initial mistake whacking the majority of
the Taken in his first book?  I've always felt he didn't realize what a
potential goldmine he had on his hands there...
 
 
Aaron
 
 

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 12:00 AM


Does anyone know how SL is selling? 

Don 
"In time, what's deserved always gets served."- COC
 
 


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<META content="MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=480054314-09082000>No, I really 
don't.&nbsp; But I'd imagine it is doing well, or at least better.&nbsp; GC's 
popularity is on the rise as more and more authors and game designers continue 
to rob his ideas. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=480054314-09082000>He really is 
surprisingly obscure for someone who has had his creative content ripped off so 
much.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=480054314-09082000></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=480054314-09082000>I remember the 
biggest factor in being really attracted instantly to the BC series (aside from 
his style of writing, and all that) was his mixing of really, really high 
fantasy with really, really low fantasy.&nbsp; It has disappointed me somewhat 
that magic became steadily more and more commonplace and less awe-inspiring for 
the annalists...though after ten books it would be hard to 
avoid.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=480054314-09082000></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=480054314-09082000>Anyone else think 
Cook made&nbsp;a huge initial mistake whacking the majority of the Taken in his 
first book?&nbsp; I've always felt he didn't realize what a potential goldmine 
he had on his hands there...</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=480054314-09082000></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=480054314-09082000>Aaron</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=480054314-09082000></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=480054314-09082000></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Don 
  [mailto:dfgarcia@stic.net]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, July 31, 2000 12:00 
  AM<BR><B>To:</B> glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> 
  (glencook-fans) SL (no spoilers)<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Does anyone know how SL is selling? </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><BR>Don <BR>"In time, what's deserved always gets 
  served."- COC</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Sam Felice" <SFelice@getty.edu>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) SL (no spoilers)
Date: 09 Aug 2000 08:52:07 -0700

I have kind of mixed feelings about that.  I mean, they were supposed to =
be the 10 most powerful sorcerers (Dominator and Lady not withstanding) =
around at the time.  Most of them got killed off relatively easily durring =
the battle at Charm.  So, they don't seem as powerful as they should have =
been.

And since then the Company has run into other sorcerers who, instead of =
taking over the whole land of the South, were merely content to rule over =
a bunch of small, backwards swamp-dwellers.  So you'd think that these =
sorcerers weren't very powerful.  Yet they seemed to put up more of a =
fight than the taken. =20

I guess my point is that while the Shadowmasters seemed like they should =
have been less powerful than the Taken, they were more trouble.  And =
though the Taken should have been more powerful, they seemed to fall =
rather easily.

My take on this, though, is that most of the Taken died due to infighting =
between the Taken.  And since they're all sorcerers of the highest =
calibre, it kind of evens the playing field and allows them to kill each =
other off more easily.  Then again, who's to say that all the ones we =
think are dead really are?  Limper was certainly nearly indestructable.  =
Soulcatcher has survived some pretty nasty stuff.  And Howler is still =
around.  Maybe that's enough Taken to have survived to keep the company on =
its toes.

I do think, though, that it would be great to find out that another one of =
the Taken (preferably one who was loyal to the Lady) is skulking around =
out there trying to take out the remaining known taken (Soulcatcher and =
Howler).  (Keep in mind as I write this that I've only barely started SL.  =
I don't really expect any other Taken to be out there, but if there are, =
don't spoil it for me. :) =20

Perhaps that's a subject for another series?  After the Company and the =
Lady left, and after the Limper was killed and the rest of the Company =
went off somewhere, one of the old Taken put him/herself back together and =
took up where the Lady left off.


>>> Aaron.Contreras@sierra.com 08/09/00 07:40AM >>>
No, I really don't.  But I'd imagine it is doing well, or at least better.
GC's popularity is on the rise as more and more authors and game designers
continue to rob his ideas.=20
He really is surprisingly obscure for someone who has had his creative
content ripped off so much.
=20
I remember the biggest factor in being really attracted instantly to the =
BC
series (aside from his style of writing, and all that) was his mixing of
really, really high fantasy with really, really low fantasy.  It has
disappointed me somewhat that magic became steadily more and more
commonplace and less awe-inspiring for the annalists...though after ten
books it would be hard to avoid.
=20
Anyone else think Cook made a huge initial mistake whacking the majority =
of
the Taken in his first book?  I've always felt he didn't realize what a
potential goldmine he had on his hands there...
=20
=20
Aaron
=20
=20

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 12:00 AM


Does anyone know how SL is selling?=20

Don=20
"In time, what's deserved always gets served."- COC
=20
=20



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From: holdencc@SLU.EDU
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) SL (no spoilers)
Date: 09 Aug 2000 11:22:52 -0500 (CDT)


> Anyone else think Cook made a huge initial mistake whacking the majority of
> the Taken in his first book?  I've always felt he didn't realize what a
> potential goldmine he had on his hands there...
>  
>  

I agree totally.  Another thing I could never figure out was why he never
bothered to flesh any of them out, other than Soulcatcher, Limper, and
weakly the Howler.  The only other ones any time was spent on at all was
Shapeshifter and Stormbringer, unless you count the couple pages it took
to kill the Hanged Man. The other four barely get mentioned, except when
they die.  At least that's how I recall it.

Chris


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From: Matthew Roche <rocheml@cerebusnm.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) SL (no spoilers)
Date: 09 Aug 2000 10:32:51 -0600 

although if you think about it, this may simply be another indicator of why
we all love his writing. when reading practically any other author (i notice
that no one here has ever recommended melanie rawn to the list, and i for
one appreciate that, but her name sure leaps to mind now) it is easy to tell
that when a character (or location or other plot device) is mentioned how
the protagonists will interact with it before the story is complete. the
fact that cook can introduce a large number of significant characters (or
locations, or other plot devices) and never have his protagonists interact
with them directly is a big plus in my book, although it may account for his
lack of commercial success...

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 12:23 PM



> Anyone else think Cook made a huge initial mistake whacking the majority
of
> the Taken in his first book?  I've always felt he didn't realize what a
> potential goldmine he had on his hands there...
>  
>  

I agree totally.  Another thing I could never figure out was why he never
bothered to flesh any of them out, other than Soulcatcher, Limper, and
weakly the Howler.  The only other ones any time was spent on at all was
Shapeshifter and Stormbringer, unless you count the couple pages it took
to kill the Hanged Man. The other four barely get mentioned, except when
they die.  At least that's how I recall it.

Chris


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From: Craig Dutton <craigld@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) SL (no spoilers)
Date: 09 Aug 2000 09:29:15 -0700 (PDT)

--- Sam Felice <SFelice@getty.edu> wrote:
> I guess my point is that while the Shadowmasters seemed like they should have
> been less powerful than the Taken, they were more trouble.  And though the
> Taken should have been more powerful, they seemed to fall rather easily.
> 
> My take on this, though, is that most of the Taken died due to infighting
> between the Taken.  And since they're all sorcerers of the highest calibre,
> it kind of evens the playing field and allows them to kill each other off
> more easily.  Then again, who's to say that all the ones we think are dead
> really are?  Limper was certainly nearly indestructable.  Soulcatcher has
> survived some pretty nasty stuff.  And Howler is still around.  Maybe that's
> enough Taken to have survived to keep the company on its toes.
> 
'Shifter & Stormbringer were still around too.  So that's 4 of the 9 presumed
dead [counting Soulcatcher and Howler, but ignoring Limper who was known to
have survived Charm], who were actually alive.

Makes you wonder if any of them died there, doesn't it?


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.
http://invites.yahoo.com/

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From: Changeling <chnglng@FreeQ.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) SL (no spoilers)
Date: 09 Aug 2000 11:42:22 -0500 (CDT)

Didn't they open up the tomb of the Faceless Man and find nothing?

-Changeling


************************************************************************** 
* "If hostility to men causes Lesbianism, then it seems to me that in a  *
*  male-dominated society, Lesbianism is a sign of mental health."       *
*                             -- Martha Shelley, Notes of a              *
*                                Radical Lesbian (1969)                  *
**************************************************************************


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From: WinB@aol.com
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) SL (no spoilers)
Date: 09 Aug 2000 13:34:09 EDT

The problem with fleshing out a book that is in first person is that the narrator (or Annalist, as the case my be) must have contact with the person or someone who has had contact with that person. The Company never had contact with many of the Taken.

Also, I think that in the first series, Cook does a great job of describing "life in the trenches." How many privates in Desert Storm *really* knew what Schwarzkopf was like? To them, he was probably the sterotypical general.

Win

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From: Eric Herrmann <shpshftr@xmission.com>
Subject: (glencook-fans) North vs. South
Date: 09 Aug 2000 11:47:25 -0600

I have a hard time believing that people actually like the Books of the
South and Glittering Stone.

Why? Because the discussion of this list is dominated by what was written in
955 pages 15 years ago and not the 2400 pages that were written since. There
aren't discussions about ShadowMasters, Gunni, Shaddar, Deceivers, Taglios,
Shivetya, Kina, etc. You may get one or two replies if you are lucky.

But bring up the name of a Taken, Goblin, One-eye, the Dominator, or Charm,
etc. you can get an extended discussion for a week with the quotes and
research that would impress any doctoral review board. But only from the
Books of the North.

And even most of the Soldiers Live discussion seems to take place in the
context of the Books of the North than within the rest of Glittering Stone.

Why is that? Am I wrong? What is the difference?

Eric Herrmann
<shpshftr@xmission.com>


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From: Matthew Roche <rocheml@cerebusnm.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) North vs. South
Date: 09 Aug 2000 11:54:04 -0600 

<grin>
i wish i had *your* doctoral review board...
</grin>

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 1:47 PM


I have a hard time believing that people actually like the Books of the
South and Glittering Stone.

Why? Because the discussion of this list is dominated by what was written in
955 pages 15 years ago and not the 2400 pages that were written since. There
aren't discussions about ShadowMasters, Gunni, Shaddar, Deceivers, Taglios,
Shivetya, Kina, etc. You may get one or two replies if you are lucky.

But bring up the name of a Taken, Goblin, One-eye, the Dominator, or Charm,
etc. you can get an extended discussion for a week with the quotes and
research that would impress any doctoral review board. But only from the
Books of the North.

And even most of the Soldiers Live discussion seems to take place in the
context of the Books of the North than within the rest of Glittering Stone.

Why is that? Am I wrong? What is the difference?

Eric Herrmann
<shpshftr@xmission.com>


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From: Matthew Roche <rocheml@cerebusnm.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) North vs. South
Date: 09 Aug 2000 12:03:00 -0600 

on a more serious note, an explanation may be that most readers are simply
more familiar with the books of the north. i (for one) have read them
upwards of a dozen times over the years. whenever i'm looking through the
bookshelves for something to read and the cook section catches my eye... but
of the books of the south that i've read (i never completed water sleeps and
won't likely start soldiers live until i re-read the whole series) i've only
read them once or (in the case of the first two) twice. although there's
plenty of evidence to the contrary (;-]) i think it's harder to throw
opinions around when you don't have as firm a grasp of the topics. give it a
few years and you'll probably see your post to reply message ratios for the
north and the south converging.

then you'll have some numbers to back you up when you go up in front of your
review board...

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 1:47 PM


I have a hard time believing that people actually like the Books of the
South and Glittering Stone.

Why? Because the discussion of this list is dominated by what was written in
955 pages 15 years ago and not the 2400 pages that were written since. There
aren't discussions about ShadowMasters, Gunni, Shaddar, Deceivers, Taglios,
Shivetya, Kina, etc. You may get one or two replies if you are lucky.

But bring up the name of a Taken, Goblin, One-eye, the Dominator, or Charm,
etc. you can get an extended discussion for a week with the quotes and
research that would impress any doctoral review board. But only from the
Books of the North.

And even most of the Soldiers Live discussion seems to take place in the
context of the Books of the North than within the rest of Glittering Stone.

Why is that? Am I wrong? What is the difference?

Eric Herrmann
<shpshftr@xmission.com>


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From: "Timothy P. Taylor" <tptaylor@genuity.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) North vs. South
Date: 09 Aug 2000 14:16:32 -0400

Perhaps because so many of us have read and re-read the first three so mcuh
vs the later books (only having been out a *mere* 1-4 years?)

just a thought...

TT

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Eric
> Herrmann
> Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 1:47 PM
> To: Glen Cook Fans
> Subject: (glencook-fans) North vs. South
>
>
> I have a hard time believing that people actually like the Books of the
> South and Glittering Stone.
>
> Why? Because the discussion of this list is dominated by what was
> written in
> 955 pages 15 years ago and not the 2400 pages that were written
> since. There
> aren't discussions about ShadowMasters, Gunni, Shaddar,
> Deceivers, Taglios,
> Shivetya, Kina, etc. You may get one or two replies if you are lucky.
>
> But bring up the name of a Taken, Goblin, One-eye, the Dominator,
> or Charm,
> etc. you can get an extended discussion for a week with the quotes and
> research that would impress any doctoral review board. But only from the
> Books of the North.
>
> And even most of the Soldiers Live discussion seems to take place in the
> context of the Books of the North than within the rest of
> Glittering Stone.
>
> Why is that? Am I wrong? What is the difference?
>
> Eric Herrmann
> <shpshftr@xmission.com>
>
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.


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From: "Timothy P. Taylor" <tptaylor@genuity.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) North vs. South
Date: 09 Aug 2000 14:16:32 -0400

Perhaps because so many of us have read and re-read the first three so mcuh
vs the later books (only having been out a *mere* 1-4 years?)

just a thought...

TT

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Eric
> Herrmann
> Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 1:47 PM
> To: Glen Cook Fans
> Subject: (glencook-fans) North vs. South
>
>
> I have a hard time believing that people actually like the Books of the
> South and Glittering Stone.
>
> Why? Because the discussion of this list is dominated by what was
> written in
> 955 pages 15 years ago and not the 2400 pages that were written
> since. There
> aren't discussions about ShadowMasters, Gunni, Shaddar,
> Deceivers, Taglios,
> Shivetya, Kina, etc. You may get one or two replies if you are lucky.
>
> But bring up the name of a Taken, Goblin, One-eye, the Dominator,
> or Charm,
> etc. you can get an extended discussion for a week with the quotes and
> research that would impress any doctoral review board. But only from the
> Books of the North.
>
> And even most of the Soldiers Live discussion seems to take place in the
> context of the Books of the North than within the rest of
> Glittering Stone.
>
> Why is that? Am I wrong? What is the difference?
>
> Eric Herrmann
> <shpshftr@xmission.com>
>
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.


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From: "PrimalChrome" <chrome@wwisp.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) North vs. South
Date: 09 Aug 2000 13:18:43 -0500

Matthew makes a good point in that most people are more familiar with the
books of the North because they've been read multiple times.

I can only speak for myself, but I found the Books of the North to be much
better at capturing the character of the Company itself, hence the fact that
it's the series that I re-read on an occasional basis.  Sure, you have
plenty of background information on the Empire, the Taken, the Lady, Charm,
Juniper, etc....but it doesn't overshadow the Company itself.

The books of the South appear to place more emphasis on the cultures of the
south, their religions, and how they interact.  Personally I don't really
give a damn if the Gunni or monotheists or polytheists, and I sure as hell
don't want to spend what amounts to a chapter of a book delving into their
religious structure.  I think religion and social structure are great things
to flesh out characters (Sleepy or Uncle Doj) or environment but if I want
to read a novel on socioeconomic policy, I'll go pick up Heinlein.  I also
liked the idea that most characters had a single, descriptive name rather
than having twenty characters referred to as Singh....even if it is the
equivalent of a "Johnson" or "Smith".

You also have a disjointedness that seems to plague the books of the south.
Due to the supernatural circumstances and the different Annalists
viewpoints, the series doesn't flow as well as the books of the North.  I
think differrent Annalist's viewpoints adds spice, but after a while, some
of the out of body experiences got a bit irritating.

Honestly I wanted to re-read the entire series before reading
_Soldiers_Live_ but in the end I decided against it just because I knew I'd
have to try to push through the Books of the South before _Soldiers_ was
printed.  Don't get me wrong, I like just about all of Cook's works (except
maybe Tower of Fear) but the next time I tackle the Black Company as an
entire series, I'm going to take it slow and easy, and try to better
appreciate the worldbuilding in the Books of the South.

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 12:47 PM


I have a hard time believing that people actually like the Books of the
South and Glittering Stone.

Why? Because the discussion of this list is dominated by what was written in
955 pages 15 years ago and not the 2400 pages that were written since. There
aren't discussions about ShadowMasters, Gunni, Shaddar, Deceivers, Taglios,
Shivetya, Kina, etc. You may get one or two replies if you are lucky.

But bring up the name of a Taken, Goblin, One-eye, the Dominator, or Charm,
etc. you can get an extended discussion for a week with the quotes and
research that would impress any doctoral review board. But only from the
Books of the North.

And even most of the Soldiers Live discussion seems to take place in the
context of the Books of the North than within the rest of Glittering Stone.

Why is that? Am I wrong? What is the difference?

Eric Herrmann
<shpshftr@xmission.com>


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 visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.



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From: "Jamison Wood" <jwood@ftdi.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) North vs. South
Date: 09 Aug 2000 13:44:09 -0500

Its all about the villians...
In the books of the North, you have the Ten, and what a bunch of wily,
backstabing, insane sorcerers! Now they made great villians.
Look at the villians in the South:
Longshadow: insane, but so very afraid of the shadows.  He never lifts a
finger sorcerously except to release some shadows.  He's basically a
simpering fool in a really big castle.
The rest of the shadowmasters: Not quite as hard to kill as the Taken. 
Also did they ever contribute anything to any of the battles except for
the web that Soulcatcher destroyed over Dejagore?
Naryan and Booboo: Great idea for a secret cult of hidden assassins, but
all they do is stay hidden.  They make one attempt at the palace, and
basically end up killing a bunch of ancilliary characters.
Kina: was it just me, or did she sleep through all the books?


I'm not being totally serious, and while I did love all the BC books, I
just didn't find the "bad guys" to be all that terrible in the south. 
Maybe if Longshadow had had time to finish his fortress...


PrimalChrome wrote:
> 
> Matthew makes a good point in that most people are more familiar with the
> books of the North because they've been read multiple times.
> 
> I can only speak for myself, but I found the Books of the North to be much
> better at capturing the character of the Company itself, hence the fact that
> it's the series that I re-read on an occasional basis.  Sure, you have
> plenty of background information on the Empire, the Taken, the Lady, Charm,
> Juniper, etc....but it doesn't overshadow the Company itself.
> 
> The books of the South appear to place more emphasis on the cultures of the
> south, their religions, and how they interact.  Personally I don't really
> give a damn if the Gunni or monotheists or polytheists, and I sure as hell
> don't want to spend what amounts to a chapter of a book delving into their
> religious structure.  I think religion and social structure are great things
> to flesh out characters (Sleepy or Uncle Doj) or environment but if I want
> to read a novel on socioeconomic policy, I'll go pick up Heinlein.  I also
> liked the idea that most characters had a single, descriptive name rather
> than having twenty characters referred to as Singh....even if it is the
> equivalent of a "Johnson" or "Smith".
> 
> You also have a disjointedness that seems to plague the books of the south.
> Due to the supernatural circumstances and the different Annalists
> viewpoints, the series doesn't flow as well as the books of the North.  I
> think differrent Annalist's viewpoints adds spice, but after a while, some
> of the out of body experiences got a bit irritating.
> 
> Honestly I wanted to re-read the entire series before reading
> _Soldiers_Live_ but in the end I decided against it just because I knew I'd
> have to try to push through the Books of the South before _Soldiers_ was
> printed.  Don't get me wrong, I like just about all of Cook's works (except
> maybe Tower of Fear) but the next time I tackle the Black Company as an
> entire series, I'm going to take it slow and easy, and try to better
> appreciate the worldbuilding in the Books of the South.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Eric Herrmann" <shpshftr@xmission.com>
> To: "Glen Cook Fans" <glencook-fans@xmission.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 12:47 PM
> Subject: (glencook-fans) North vs. South
> 
> I have a hard time believing that people actually like the Books of the
> South and Glittering Stone.
> 
> Why? Because the discussion of this list is dominated by what was written in
> 955 pages 15 years ago and not the 2400 pages that were written since. There
> aren't discussions about ShadowMasters, Gunni, Shaddar, Deceivers, Taglios,
> Shivetya, Kina, etc. You may get one or two replies if you are lucky.
> 
> But bring up the name of a Taken, Goblin, One-eye, the Dominator, or Charm,
> etc. you can get an extended discussion for a week with the quotes and
> research that would impress any doctoral review board. But only from the
> Books of the North.
> 
> And even most of the Soldiers Live discussion seems to take place in the
> context of the Books of the North than within the rest of Glittering Stone.
> 
> Why is that? Am I wrong? What is the difference?
> 
> Eric Herrmann
> <shpshftr@xmission.com>
> 
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
> 
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From: "R. Hyrum Savage" <ashaman@flashcom.net>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) North vs. South
Date: 09 Aug 2000 11:29:51 -0700

I've actually found the Books of the South to be quite interesting. The
non-Western cultures are what grab me the most I think. It's not something
found in m any fantasy books these days and really makes Cook stand out.
Plus you can tell he's done his homework when it comes to
Buddhist/Islam/Hindi faiths.

Unlike most on the list I think I may like the Books of the South more than
the North. While the changing of Annalists does seem strange, once you get
going the weirdness fades into the background. There also seems to be a lot
more going on in the background, stuff that doesn't make sense when you
first read it but 2 books later it suddenly comes into focus what Cook was
trying to do.

My $0.02 at least.

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Eric
Herrmann
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 10:47 AM


I have a hard time believing that people actually like the Books of the
South and Glittering Stone.

Why? Because the discussion of this list is dominated by what was written in
955 pages 15 years ago and not the 2400 pages that were written since. There
aren't discussions about ShadowMasters, Gunni, Shaddar, Deceivers, Taglios,
Shivetya, Kina, etc. You may get one or two replies if you are lucky.

But bring up the name of a Taken, Goblin, One-eye, the Dominator, or Charm,
etc. you can get an extended discussion for a week with the quotes and
research that would impress any doctoral review board. But only from the
Books of the North.

And even most of the Soldiers Live discussion seems to take place in the
context of the Books of the North than within the rest of Glittering Stone.

Why is that? Am I wrong? What is the difference?

Eric Herrmann
<shpshftr@xmission.com>


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From: "Nick Chase" <chase_nick@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Happy Endings (was Darkwar series?)
Date: 09 Aug 2000 19:11:51 GMT

>In a message dated 7/21/00 9:21:59 PM, shpshftr@xmission.com writes:
> >Can someone please name for me the Glen Cook books which aren't 
>depressing?
> >The ones that have the happy ending? And I don't just want titles. I 
>expect
> >reasons.

Some of the Garrett books have fairly happy endings, though there's almost 
always some bitter in with the sweet. I think one of the happiest, though, 
is Tower of Fear. Pretty much everyone in that gets what they deserve.

S

P

O

I

L

E

R

S

The carpenter gets his kid back, the evil sorceror's resurrection is 
thwarted, old scores are settled, the desert tribes accomplish their plan, 
and Azel the anti-hero gets to go fishing. Then of course the sands of 
history come in and bury everything in the second epilogue, but that's well 
after the principals have lived out their lives. Millions of years after 
that the sun swallows the earth.

Then, at night, the ice weasels come.
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From: Matthew Roche <rocheml@cerebusnm.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Happy Endings (was Darkwar series?)
Date: 09 Aug 2000 13:19:14 -0600 

damn those ice weasels...

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 3:12 PM


>In a message dated 7/21/00 9:21:59 PM, shpshftr@xmission.com writes:
> >Can someone please name for me the Glen Cook books which aren't 
>depressing?
> >The ones that have the happy ending? And I don't just want titles. I 
>expect
> >reasons.

Some of the Garrett books have fairly happy endings, though there's almost 
always some bitter in with the sweet. I think one of the happiest, though, 
is Tower of Fear. Pretty much everyone in that gets what they deserve.

S

P

O

I

L

E

R

S

The carpenter gets his kid back, the evil sorceror's resurrection is 
thwarted, old scores are settled, the desert tribes accomplish their plan, 
and Azel the anti-hero gets to go fishing. Then of course the sands of 
history come in and bury everything in the second epilogue, but that's well 
after the principals have lived out their lives. Millions of years after 
that the sun swallows the earth.

Then, at night, the ice weasels come.
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


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From: "Nick Chase" <chase_nick@hotmail.com>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Don't They Proofread? (SL spoiler!)
Date: 09 Aug 2000 19:16:48 GMT

>From: CookReader@aol.com
>They must have changed, since when Croaker comes at Mogaba all decked
>out in fire and fury Mogaba says, "Lady?"

He says "Lady?" when he sees Widowmaker laid out. Croaker comes at him after 
that.
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From: "Joshua Peery" <jloasrah@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) North vs. South
Date: 09 Aug 2000 15:27:21 -0400

My BC experience:

I started the BC series with "Shadow Games" after all it said "First book of
the South"
I quickly found myself reading "A confusing sequal to a story I never read"
but it primed me for the books of the North.  I think all the books are
really good.. each with a different "flavor" .. The only "rough" parts for
me was reading "Bleak Seasons" which was the first BC book I had to wait for
to be published.. and it had a missing page and it was very confusing even
though I had read the other books multiple times..  I think "Bleak Seasons"
and "Dreams of Steel" could have been one book...  But then after "Bleak" we
got "She is the Darkness" which I think is one of the most outstanding of
the series since "The Black Company"  .. BUT then "Water Sleeps"  UGHHHHH
dont know about you guys but it had a hard time keeping my attention.. I
have read the other books multiple multiple times.. but ."Water Sleeps" only
twice.  I dont know why I dont care for it, I just dont..  plus it made me
sad with One-Eye and Goblins fates. I have not finished "Soldiers Live", but
it has not grabbed my fancy like some of the others yet..

As for the untold stories of the Taken.. I do like croaker did with Lady..
write my own stories :-)  (some of you may have seen my samples on this
list.

just my two coppers, wasting time til I get specs downloaded ;-)

~Joshua


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From: Wendy Shaffer <wshaffer@uclink4.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) North vs. South
Date: 09 Aug 2000 12:39:46 -0700

>I have a hard time believing that people actually like the Books of the
>South and Glittering Stone.
>
>Why? Because the discussion of this list is dominated by what was written in
>955 pages 15 years ago and not the 2400 pages that were written since. There
>aren't discussions about ShadowMasters, Gunni, Shaddar, Deceivers, Taglios,
>Shivetya, Kina, etc. You may get one or two replies if you are lucky.
>
>But bring up the name of a Taken, Goblin, One-eye, the Dominator, or Charm,
>etc. you can get an extended discussion for a week with the quotes and
>research that would impress any doctoral review board. But only from the
>Books of the North.
>
>And even most of the Soldiers Live discussion seems to take place in the
>context of the Books of the North than within the rest of Glittering Stone.
>
>Why is that? Am I wrong? What is the difference?
>


I like Glittering Stone quite a bit.  The first couple books of the 
South, I don't like quite so much - I remember Dreams of Steel as the 
low point of the series.  (Putting in the caveat here that, as a 
relative Cook newbie, I've read most of the books only once.  Once 
I'm done with Soldier's Live, I'm planning to set aside some time to 
reread the entire series, and my opinions might well change on a 
second read.)  But I felt like the series really picked up new energy 
starting with _Bleak Seasons_.  I enjoyed it quite a bit.

I'm afraid I can't shed any light on the disparity in discussion time 
devoted to the different parts of the series.  Since joining this 
mailing list, I've mostly been looking on in bemused awe at the 
detailed discussions.  A lot of people on this list have obviously 
read the books many more times than I have, or have much better 
memories of what they've read.  I have trouble keeping up.  There are 
also a lot of questions it would just never occur to me to ask.

Maybe Glittering Stone just isn't as fertile a ground for 
speculation?  (Seems unlikely, given how complex the story is.) 
Maybe it just appeals to quieter folk like me?

Having said that, I think there will be some questions that I'll want 
to discuss once I've finished with _Soldiers Live_.  I'm holding back 
right now because some of those questions may be answered in the 
book, and also because I don't want to see any spoilers yet.

---wendy

Wendy A. Shaffer			Kirsch Lab
wshaffer@uclink4.berkeley.edu		University of California, Berkeley
(510) 642-7373				529 Stanley Hall
					Berkeley, CA 94720

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From: "Sam Felice" <SFelice@getty.edu>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) SL (no spoilers)
Date: 09 Aug 2000 12:52:33 -0700

I thought that was the vault of Al Capone.


>>> chnglng@FreeQ.com 08/09/00 09:42AM >>>
Didn't they open up the tomb of the Faceless Man and find nothing?

-Changeling


**************************************************************************=
=20
* "If hostility to men causes Lesbianism, then it seems to me that in a  *
*  male-dominated society, Lesbianism is a sign of mental health."       *
*                             -- Martha Shelley, Notes of a              *
*                                Radical Lesbian (1969)                  *
**************************************************************************


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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From: "Jordan Raney" <jrraney@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) North vs. South
Date: 09 Aug 2000 14:56:27 -0500

Maybe many of you have read the books of the north more often, but I know
that I have actually read all black company books 3 times...all but Water
Sleeps and Soldiers Live because they're so recent.  But still, the books of
the North are a lot more interesting for me..I don't even know why.  Part of
it is the culture that the company is immersed in I think.  The North is
more traditional "western european fantasy" while the south is almost
"middle-eastern" if that makes any sense.  I am just more familiar (and more
interested in) the traditional western european type.  Also, I think the
characters in the books of the North were a lot less "flat" then those of
the south.  Just some thoughts.

JR


> Perhaps because so many of us have read and re-read the first three so
mcuh
> vs the later books (only having been out a *mere* 1-4 years?)
>
> just a thought...
>
> TT
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> > [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Eric
> > Herrmann
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 1:47 PM
> > To: Glen Cook Fans
> > Subject: (glencook-fans) North vs. South
> >
> >
> > I have a hard time believing that people actually like the Books of the
> > South and Glittering Stone.
> >
> > Why? Because the discussion of this list is dominated by what was
> > written in
> > 955 pages 15 years ago and not the 2400 pages that were written
> > since. There
> > aren't discussions about ShadowMasters, Gunni, Shaddar,
> > Deceivers, Taglios,
> > Shivetya, Kina, etc. You may get one or two replies if you are lucky.
> >
> > But bring up the name of a Taken, Goblin, One-eye, the Dominator,
> > or Charm,
> > etc. you can get an extended discussion for a week with the quotes and
> > research that would impress any doctoral review board. But only from the
> > Books of the North.
> >
> > And even most of the Soldiers Live discussion seems to take place in the
> > context of the Books of the North than within the rest of
> > Glittering Stone.
> >
> > Why is that? Am I wrong? What is the difference?
> >
> > Eric Herrmann
> > <shpshftr@xmission.com>
> >
> >
> > =======================================================================
> >  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> >  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
>
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From: Changeling <chnglng@FreeQ.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) SL (no spoilers)
Date: 09 Aug 2000 15:04:52 -0500 (CDT)

Well, that too. But I'm pretty sure that I recall Lady sending word back
to her folks at the tower after they encountered one of the supposedly
dead Taken and they dug up at least one of the graves and found it empty.

-Changeling=20

On Wed, 9 Aug 2000, Sam Felice wrote:

> I thought that was the vault of Al Capone.
>=20
>=20
> >>> chnglng@FreeQ.com 08/09/00 09:42AM >>>
> Didn't they open up the tomb of the Faceless Man and find nothing?
>=20
> -Changeling
>=20
>=20
> *************************************************************************=
*=20
> * "If hostility to men causes Lesbianism, then it seems to me that in a  =
*
> *  male-dominated society, Lesbianism is a sign of mental health."       =
*
> *                             -- Martha Shelley, Notes of a              =
*
> *                                Radical Lesbian (1969)                  =
*
> *************************************************************************=
*
>=20
>=20
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>=20
>=20
> =FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>=20


**************************************************************************=
=20
* "If hostility to men causes Lesbianism, then it seems to me that in a  *
*  male-dominated society, Lesbianism is a sign of mental health."       *
*                             -- Martha Shelley, Notes of a              *
*                                Radical Lesbian (1969)                  *
**************************************************************************


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From: "Jordan Raney" <jrraney@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) North vs. South
Date: 09 Aug 2000 15:01:02 -0500

> Maybe if Longshadow had had time to finish his fortress...


No no, I think this is one of the huge problems with the books of the south.
It takes so long for anything to happen!  If he had finished his castle it
probably would have taken even longer while they sat there and sieged it.
In the books of the north they were constantly moving around, and Cook
worried more about keeping the plot moving along than inserting details
about so and so's favorite aspect of his favorite Gunni god.....


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From: Matthew Roche <rocheml@cerebusnm.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) SL (no spoilers)
Date: 09 Aug 2000 14:09:04 -0600 

that does sound awfully familiar. croaker got nervous...

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 4:05 PM


Well, that too. But I'm pretty sure that I recall Lady sending word =
back
to her folks at the tower after they encountered one of the supposedly
dead Taken and they dug up at least one of the graves and found it =
empty.

-Changeling=20

On Wed, 9 Aug 2000, Sam Felice wrote:

> I thought that was the vault of Al Capone.
>=20
>=20
> >>> chnglng@FreeQ.com 08/09/00 09:42AM >>>
> Didn't they open up the tomb of the Faceless Man and find nothing?
>=20
> -Changeling
>=20
>=20
> =
************************************************************************=
**

> * "If hostility to men causes Lesbianism, then it seems to me that in =
a  *
> *  male-dominated society, Lesbianism is a sign of mental health."    =
   *
> *                             -- Martha Shelley, Notes of a           =
   *
> *                                Radical Lesbian (1969)               =
   *
> =
************************************************************************=
**
>=20
>=20
> =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>=20
>=20
> =
=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=FF=

>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>=20


************************************************************************=
**=20
* "If hostility to men causes Lesbianism, then it seems to me that in a =
 *
*  male-dominated society, Lesbianism is a sign of mental health."      =
 *
*                             -- Martha Shelley, Notes of a             =
 *
*                                Radical Lesbian (1969)                 =
 *
************************************************************************=
**


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D To
unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
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From: holdencc@SLU.EDU
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) North vs. South
Date: 09 Aug 2000 15:11:49 -0500 (CDT)

While I enjoyed the plots of the South books more than the North, I
thought in all the South series was weaker.  Along the same lines of
people who attribute this sentiment to the characters being "flatter" in
the South series, I blame the South books being stretched too thin.  In
any of the first four books of the BC series Cook allows enough page space
for the reader to get to know at least half a dozen or so characters quite
well, and they are mostly interesting.  It seems that in the South the
number of characters he focuses on closely is smaller.  Moreover, these
are often the same interesting characters that we already knew from the
North.  Also, sometimes these characters simply aren't as compelling as
the earlier ones.  I always attributed this to the author trying to cover
more plot ground in the south, both in terms of range of events and in
terms of level of detail of these events.

Still, I've only read the series twice, except for SL (once).


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From: "Nick Chase" <chase_nick@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) SL (no spoilers)
Date: 09 Aug 2000 20:13:49 GMT

Well, the Taken were up against each other and the Circle of Eighteen, who 
were apparently powerful enough to be proto-Taken (ie, up around Bomanz 
level). The Shadowmasters faced a lot less opposition: Shapeshifter and 
Stormbringer cancelled each other out, Soulcatcher and the Howler mostly 
kept their distance. That leaves Goblin and One-Eye.


>From: "Sam Felice" <SFelice@getty.edu>
>I have kind of mixed feelings about that.  I mean, they were supposed
>to be the 10 most powerful sorcerers (Dominator and Lady not >withstanding) 
>around at the time.  Most of them got killed off >relatively easily durring 
>the battle at Charm.  So, they don't seem
>as powerful as they should have been.
>
>And since then the Company has run into other sorcerers who, instead
>of taking over the whole land of the South, were merely content to
>rule over a bunch of small, backwards swamp-dwellers.  So you'd think
>that these sorcerers weren't very powerful.  Yet they seemed to put >up 
>more of a fight than the taken.

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com


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From: "Anna Taylor" <annat@med.umich.edu>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) North vs. South
Date: 09 Aug 2000 17:09:12 -0400

I started with the books of the South and read all of them first.  The =
first thing I'll
say...I wish those would be thrown into one book.  There was something =
jarring
about having the book end in the middle of the dominant storyline.  An =
anthology
of the Books of the South would be much better for future readers. =20

The books of the North still hooked you for the next book, but they were a =
little
more forgiving in terms of story resolutions.  The books of the North also =
had=20
the classic story arc.  Average guy gets THE girl, with a little mahem =
and=20
intrigue to make it plausibly uncertain. =20

These are just my take on the discussion, other and better reasoned =
opinions
likely exist. =20

-Anna



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From: "Lich" <lich@mtco.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL (no spoilers)
Date: 10 Aug 2000 04:08:22 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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The Taken are some of the most brilliant villains ever conceived of for =
a fantasy setting.  That, I suspect, is why a lot of them wound up not =
having actually gone down at Charm.  I'm thinking he would probably do =
it differently in retrospect.
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Aaron Contreras=20
  To: 'glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com'=20
  Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 9:40 AM
  Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) SL (no spoilers)


  No, I really don't.  But I'd imagine it is doing well, or at least =
better.  GC's popularity is on the rise as more and more authors and =
game designers continue to rob his ideas.=20
  He really is surprisingly obscure for someone who has had his creative =
content ripped off so much.
  =20
  I remember the biggest factor in being really attracted instantly to =
the BC series (aside from his style of writing, and all that) was his =
mixing of really, really high fantasy with really, really low fantasy.  =
It has disappointed me somewhat that magic became steadily more and more =
commonplace and less awe-inspiring for the annalists...though after ten =
books it would be hard to avoid.
  =20
  Anyone else think Cook made a huge initial mistake whacking the =
majority of the Taken in his first book?  I've always felt he didn't =
realize what a potential goldmine he had on his hands there...

  =20
  Aaron
  =20
  =20
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Don [mailto:dfgarcia@stic.net]
    Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 12:00 AM
    To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
    Subject: (glencook-fans) SL (no spoilers)


    Does anyone know how SL is selling?=20

    Don=20
    "In time, what's deserved always gets served."- COC

    =20

------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C00280.A0093000
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3018.900" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The Taken are some of the most =
brilliant villains=20
ever conceived of for a fantasy setting.&nbsp; That, I suspect, is why a =
lot of=20
them wound up not having actually gone down at Charm.&nbsp; I'm thinking =
he=20
would probably do it differently in retrospect.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:Aaron.Contreras@sierra.com"=20
  title=3DAaron.Contreras@sierra.com>Aaron Contreras</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:'glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com'"=20
  =
title=3Dglencook-fans@lists.xmission.com>'glencook-fans@lists.xmission.co=
m'</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 09, =
2000 9:40=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: (glencook-fans) SL =
(no=20
  spoilers)</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D480054314-09082000>No, =
I really=20
  don't.&nbsp; But I'd imagine it is doing well, or at least =
better.&nbsp; GC's=20
  popularity is on the rise as more and more authors and game designers =
continue=20
  to rob his ideas. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D480054314-09082000>He =
really is=20
  surprisingly obscure for someone who has had his creative content =
ripped off=20
  so much.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D480054314-09082000></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D480054314-09082000>I =
remember the=20
  biggest factor in being really attracted instantly to the BC series =
(aside=20
  from his style of writing, and all that) was his mixing of really, =
really high=20
  fantasy with really, really low fantasy.&nbsp; It has disappointed me =
somewhat=20
  that magic became steadily more and more commonplace and less =
awe-inspiring=20
  for the annalists...though after ten books it would be hard to=20
  avoid.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D480054314-09082000></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D480054314-09082000>Anyone else think=20
  Cook made&nbsp;a huge initial mistake whacking the majority of the =
Taken in=20
  his first book?&nbsp; I've always felt he didn't realize what a =
potential=20
  goldmine he had on his hands there...</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D480054314-09082000></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D480054314-09082000>Aaron</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D480054314-09082000></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D480054314-09082000></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
    size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Don=20
    [mailto:dfgarcia@stic.net]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, July 31, 2000 =
12:00=20
    AM<BR><B>To:</B> glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> =

    (glencook-fans) SL (no spoilers)<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Does anyone know how SL is selling? =

    </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>Don <BR>"In time, what's =
deserved always=20
    gets served."- COC</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C00280.A0093000--


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From: "Lich" <lich@mtco.com>
Subject: (glencook-fans) The Taken, The Circle and Bomanz
Date: 10 Aug 2000 04:25:22 -0500

The Taken
Somebody was wondering whether ANY of the Taken went down permanently at
Charm.  In Water Sleeps it mentions that "several" of the Taken were present
when Longshadow first opened and bound his true name to the Shadowgate.
During that incident, some of the sorcerers present were destroyed.  It
doesn't specify how many though.

Personally, I think the only Taken that got smoked at Charm were The Hanged
Man, and Bonegnasher.  We Know Stormbringer, Limper, Soulcatcher, Howler and
Shapeshifter survived.  Counting the Hanged Man, this makes six that we KNOW
the fate of.  I'm guessing on Bonegnasher just because he seemed too simple
straightforward to be involved in all kinds of duplicitous plots.  From the
Lady's perspective, I'm thinking he was the "best" of the Taken.  That
leaves Nameless, Nightcrawler and Moonbiter unnaccounted for.  I'm thinking
they were the sorcerers destroyed at the Shadowgate incident.

The Circle and Bomanz
While I would agree that the Circle were up to the level of proto-taken,
there's a big difference between proto and full fledged.  If you recall,
during the nights at Charm, all 18 of the circle were continually on the
defensive (and not mounting a very good one either) because the "Taken were
too damn strong."  I would say that between the 18, they had the capability
of two maybe three of the Taken, if that.

Bomanz on the other hand, is another story.  His actions in The White Rose
and The Silver Spike lead me to believe that he was the equal of any of the
Taken, except for possibly Soulcatcher and Limper.  We're talking about a
guy who intended to get 1st hand teaching from the Lady, not through
bargaining, but by COMPELLING her to teach him.  He came damn near pulling
it off.  I'd definitely rate him as a top-knotch sorcerer.




----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 3:13 PM


> Well, the Taken were up against each other and the Circle of Eighteen, who
> were apparently powerful enough to be proto-Taken (ie, up around Bomanz
> level). The Shadowmasters faced a lot less opposition: Shapeshifter and
> Stormbringer cancelled each other out, Soulcatcher and the Howler mostly
> kept their distance. That leaves Goblin and One-Eye.
>
>
> >From: "Sam Felice" <SFelice@getty.edu>
> >I have kind of mixed feelings about that.  I mean, they were supposed
> >to be the 10 most powerful sorcerers (Dominator and Lady not
>withstanding)
> >around at the time.  Most of them got killed off >relatively easily
durring
> >the battle at Charm.  So, they don't seem
> >as powerful as they should have been.
> >
> >And since then the Company has run into other sorcerers who, instead
> >of taking over the whole land of the South, were merely content to
> >rule over a bunch of small, backwards swamp-dwellers.  So you'd think
> >that these sorcerers weren't very powerful.  Yet they seemed to put >up
> >more of a fight than the taken.
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
> =======================================================================
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>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jake Kesinger <kesinger@math.ttu.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) The Taken, The Circle and Bomanz
Date: 09 Aug 2000 16:34:10 -0500 (CDT)

On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, Lich wrote:
 
> Bomanz on the other hand, is another story.  His actions in The White Rose
> and The Silver Spike lead me to believe that he was the equal of any of the
> Taken, except for possibly Soulcatcher and Limper.  We're talking about a
> guy who intended to get 1st hand teaching from the Lady, not through
> bargaining, but by COMPELLING her to teach him.  He came damn near pulling
> it off.  I'd definitely rate him as a top-knotch sorcerer.

Except that Bomanz had a lever long enough to move the world (her True 
Name) and a place to stand.  

The impression I got from _The_Silver_Spike_ was that Bomanz was, while a 
pretty good wizard, seriously outclassed by what he was up against.  

 ==Jake



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From: "Warner, Jon" <Jon.Warner@ps.net>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) North vs. South
Date: 09 Aug 2000 16:52:17 -0500 

I was thinking along the same lines.  There is a very "alien" feel to the
books of the South, which I think was intentional. I think it's good world
building on Cook's part to have such cultural diversity. The further you go
from your point of origin, the more awkward you feel.  For the readers who
began the journey with Croaker in _The Black Company_ the North is our
'point of origin'.  While the south was interesting, I never felt the
attachment I did to the earlier books.  Perhaps this was fostered by the
supposition that the South lands were just a place to pass through on the
way to Khatovar.  Unfortunately, for me anyway, the South became the end
rather than the means.


-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 1:56 PM


Maybe many of you have read the books of the north more often, but I know
that I have actually read all black company books 3 times...all but Water
Sleeps and Soldiers Live because they're so recent.  But still, the books of
the North are a lot more interesting for me..I don't even know why.  Part of
it is the culture that the company is immersed in I think.  The North is
more traditional "western european fantasy" while the south is almost
"middle-eastern" if that makes any sense.  I am just more familiar (and more
interested in) the traditional western european type.  Also, I think the
characters in the books of the North were a lot less "flat" then those of
the south.  Just some thoughts.

JR


> Perhaps because so many of us have read and re-read the first three so
mcuh
> vs the later books (only having been out a *mere* 1-4 years?)
>
> just a thought...
>
> TT
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> > [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Eric
> > Herrmann
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 1:47 PM
> > To: Glen Cook Fans
> > Subject: (glencook-fans) North vs. South
> >
> >
> > I have a hard time believing that people actually like the Books of the
> > South and Glittering Stone.
> >
> > Why? Because the discussion of this list is dominated by what was
> > written in
> > 955 pages 15 years ago and not the 2400 pages that were written
> > since. There
> > aren't discussions about ShadowMasters, Gunni, Shaddar,
> > Deceivers, Taglios,
> > Shivetya, Kina, etc. You may get one or two replies if you are lucky.
> >
> > But bring up the name of a Taken, Goblin, One-eye, the Dominator,
> > or Charm,
> > etc. you can get an extended discussion for a week with the quotes and
> > research that would impress any doctoral review board. But only from the
> > Books of the North.
> >
> > And even most of the Soldiers Live discussion seems to take place in the
> > context of the Books of the North than within the rest of
> > Glittering Stone.
> >
> > Why is that? Am I wrong? What is the difference?
> >
> > Eric Herrmann
> > <shpshftr@xmission.com>
> >
> >
> > =======================================================================
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>
>
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From: "David George" <dsgeorge@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) North vs. South
Date: 09 Aug 2000 17:26:24 -0500

I agree with Eric and disagree with him.  (Sure, why not?)  I agree because
his point that people seem to like the books of the North better is well
taken.  Except that I like Glittering Stone best of the bunch.  But I've
been one of the loonies who post about the South books and Eric is right,
very little discussion results.  May be my posts as well . . .

I disagree with him because I definitely do like the Books of the South.
For very different reasons than why I like the Books of the North.  The
North books hang together much better.  They are a nice, tight, trilogy.
The books of the South introduce three different annalists, three different
voices.  And I liked that alot.  I especially liked re-reading Dreams of
Steel and immediately afterwards reading Bleak Seasons because you get two
voices and two biases discussing largely the same events.  In a strange way,
Bleak Seasons fleshes out Lady's character by comparing what Murgen says and
what she says.  She comes off as pretty self-serving, moreso if you
sympathize with Murgen.

I agree that they don't hang together like the North does as a tight
trilogy, but Glittering Stone, for me, was some of the best fantasy writing
I've yet seen.

De gustibus non est disputandem, though.  I've seen comments to the effect
that some readers would just as soon Sleepy or Sahra have never been
introduced as characters.  And, to add to my vices, I like the Garrett
books, more after having re-read them.  I even liked Swordbearer.  Read it
twice.  So get a salt lick to go with my comments.  Which end here.

DG


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From: Aaron Contreras <Aaron.Contreras@sierra.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) North vs. South
Date: 09 Aug 2000 15:48:35 -0700 

One instance really sums up the differences between the two series:

Remember when Croaker & the Company work with 'Shifter to take out the
Limper?
What an increidble scene.  All the tension was amazing.

Now, check out any of the heavy magic/ambush/whack a bad guy raids in the
later books.  It's old hat.  Murgen and Croaker have seen it all, just
about.

Cook, to his credit, doesn't up the ante of sorcerous threat and fantasy -
I'd actually say he lowers it considerably after the Silver Spike.  Yes,
fantasic elements become a lot more common, but also a lot less potent.

Mixed feelings on the whole subject.  He really could've stretched out the,
"Holy &%%%$!  What have we gotten ourselves into!?" feel of the first book
for a good trilogy.  Not that I'm complaining how things have gone.  I
really like the later books.  The ones I couldn't stand were the Silver
Spike (loathed it) or maybe the first book or two of the South.

Always been my impression that as confusing and weird the whole Murgen in
Degajore thing was, it really infused the entire series with a badly needed
jolt of new blood.

Ack, this wanders.  What happens when you're nearly off work, I guess.

Aaron


-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 3:26 PM


I agree with Eric and disagree with him.  (Sure, why not?)  I agree because
his point that people seem to like the books of the North better is well
taken.  Except that I like Glittering Stone best of the bunch.  But I've
been one of the loonies who post about the South books and Eric is right,
very little discussion results.  May be my posts as well . . .

I disagree with him because I definitely do like the Books of the South.
For very different reasons than why I like the Books of the North.  The
North books hang together much better.  They are a nice, tight, trilogy.
The books of the South introduce three different annalists, three different
voices.  And I liked that alot.  I especially liked re-reading Dreams of
Steel and immediately afterwards reading Bleak Seasons because you get two
voices and two biases discussing largely the same events.  In a strange way,
Bleak Seasons fleshes out Lady's character by comparing what Murgen says and
what she says.  She comes off as pretty self-serving, moreso if you
sympathize with Murgen.

I agree that they don't hang together like the North does as a tight
trilogy, but Glittering Stone, for me, was some of the best fantasy writing
I've yet seen.

De gustibus non est disputandem, though.  I've seen comments to the effect
that some readers would just as soon Sleepy or Sahra have never been
introduced as characters.  And, to add to my vices, I like the Garrett
books, more after having re-read them.  I even liked Swordbearer.  Read it
twice.  So get a salt lick to go with my comments.  Which end here.

DG


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From: "C.L. Yona" <junkboy@cyberwhirled.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) North vs. South
Date: 09 Aug 2000 19:50:11 -0400

I have to chip my couple of pennies in and say that I don't see any discernible
reduction of quality between the books of the North and the South.  In fact, I
think Cook pulls off a pretty neat trick by moving from one "battle for control
of the world" situation to another. He also reduced the Company down to what -
6 members?  Gutsy.  Perhaps the Northerners (heh) like the earlier books better
because they stayed with the characters that you knew from the beginning - The
Captain, Silent, Raven, etc.  Down in the South the books are a little more
daring, a little more inventive - Annalists change, bringing new perspectives;
the enemies are more numerous and not always as obvious;  entirely new
cultures, wildly different from one another, are introduced.    As for Water
Sleeps, I thought it was fantastic - how much nerve does it take for a writer
to remove one of the series' most central characters for almost the entire
book?  I give Cook credit.  He's not satisfied with just writing a tale, he's
going to keep you off-guard.  Better than recycling tired storyline and warmed
over crap like too many of today's fantasy writers do.

yer dog, shooting off his mouth

"Warner, Jon" wrote:

> I was thinking along the same lines.  There is a very "alien" feel to the
> books of the South, which I think was intentional. I think it's good world
> building on Cook's part to have such cultural diversity. The further you go
> from your point of origin, the more awkward you feel.  For the readers who
> began the journey with Croaker in _The Black Company_ the North is our
> 'point of origin'.  While the south was interesting, I never felt the
> attachment I did to the earlier books.  Perhaps this was fostered by the
> supposition that the South lands were just a place to pass through on the
> way to Khatovar.  Unfortunately, for me anyway, the South became the end
> rather than the means.




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From: CookReader@aol.com
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL (no spoilers)
Date: 09 Aug 2000 19:46:07 EDT


In a message dated 8/9/00 12:35:56 PM, WinB@aol.com writes:

>Also, I think that in the first series, Cook does a great job of describing
>"life in the trenches." How many privates in Desert Storm *really* knew
>what Schwarzkopf was like? To them, he was probably the sterotypical general.

Yeah, fat, lazy, and I bet that ruksac had a pillow in it. Man probably didn't
walk anywhere and only drove if he needed Twinkies.

Actually, having been in at the time, I can say on the troop level troops
were damn happy that he was leading, since when he felt screwed he
made sure the world knew it.

This is one of the things that I liked about the BC books, they way they
elected their officers. No chance of getting someone in they that people
would have rather seen dead.

christopher....

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From: CookReader@aol.com
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) The Taken, The Circle and Bomanz
Date: 09 Aug 2000 19:46:09 EDT


In a message dated 8/9/00 4:35:20 PM, kesinger@math.ttu.edu writes:

>On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, Lich wrote:
> 
>> Bomanz on the other hand, is another story.  His actions in The White
>> Rose and The Silver Spike lead me to believe that he was the equal of any
>> of the Taken, except for possibly Soulcatcher and Limper.  We're talking 
about
>> a guy who intended to get 1st hand teaching from the Lady, not through
>> bargaining, but by COMPELLING her to teach him.  He came damn near pulling
>> it off.  I'd definitely rate him as a top-knotch sorcerer.
>
>Except that Bomanz had a lever long enough to move the world (her True
>Name) and a place to stand.  
>
>The impression I got from _The_Silver_Spike_ was that Bomanz was, while
>a pretty good wizard, seriously outclassed by what he was up against.

It was my impression that Lady was manipulating his self confidence to
make him believe he was up to a task that was always beyond him. If forced
to bet, I throw my money the way of the weakest Taken to kick his ass.
At best he was the equal to one of the Lesser Taken. He was a portly old
man too attached to his family. He lacked the drive that any of the Taken
had. He never showed any real power other than an ability to survive.

christopher....


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From: CookReader@aol.com
Subject: (glencook-fans) The Taken (was SL (no spoilers))
Date: 09 Aug 2000 19:46:11 EDT


In a message dated 8/9/00 9:49:05 AM, Aaron.Contreras@sierra.com writes:

>Anyone else think Cook made a huge initial mistake whacking the majority
>of the Taken in his first book?  I've always felt he didn't realize what a
potential goldmine he had on his hands there...

I think he knows. Even dead the Taken got a lot of text time. Hell, the
Dominator might as well still be alive. The Company remembers (and
that's an immortality of sorts).

The Ten Who Were Taken, to me, IMHO, are much like the Twelve Dead
Captains of The Swordbearer. The Dead Caps were pretty much early
versions of the Taken, or Takenlite. Anyway, my point is that Cook
already had experience with this type of character.

If we'd had Ten Taken running througout the books it wouldn't be
a story about the company so much as the intrigue of the Ten.
I also doubt that were many of them still alive that they would hold
the same appeal as they do dead.

Dead Moonbiter has a cool name, same as the Hangedman. Alive
they start to get boring. They Howler lived long enough to become
a joke. Me, I'm glad Stormbringer and the others went out while
they were still cool. Pretty much wished it had happen to Catcher
sometime in there. Love the character to death, hated the fact
that she was turned into an incompetent mayor or a boring city.

christopher....

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From: CookReader@aol.com
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) The Taken, The Circle and Bomanz
Date: 09 Aug 2000 20:07:51 EDT


In a message dated 8/9/00 4:30:11 PM, lich@mtco.com writes:

>Somebody was wondering whether ANY of the Taken went down permanently at
>Charm.  In Water Sleeps it mentions that "several" of the Taken were present
>when Longshadow first opened and bound his true name to the Shadowgate.
>During that incident, some of the sorcerers present were destroyed.  It
>doesn't specify how many though.

Do you have a cite for this? I don't remember it at all, but that's not 
surprising.
Cook tends to put stuff like this in throw-away lines. I was pretty sure at 
least
two of the Taken were confirmed dead at Charm, having taken each other out,
and doesn't Croaker witness one Taken die (while a couple others look on and
decide not to help)?

christopher....

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From: Joshua G Peery <jloasrah@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) The Taken, The Circle and Bomanz
Date: 09 Aug 2000 20:53:13 -0400

It was my impression that Lady was manipulating his self confidence to
>make him believe he was up to a task that was always beyond him. If forced
>to bet, I throw my money the way of the weakest Taken to kick his ass.
>At best he was the equal to one of the Lesser Taken. He was a portly old
>man too attached to his family. He lacked the drive that any of the Taken
>had. He never showed any real power other than an ability to survive.
>


Didnt Bomanz kill his only son?  And didnt he "off" one of the twins at Oar
without a hitch?
Bomanz was afraid that his power would be sought by the Lady and she would
turn him into a Taken..
Even his son said his old collegues wondered what had happened to him
'cause he was the best of them..

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From: "Brooke A. Wheeler" <bawheeler@MEDIAONE.NET>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Taken (was SL (no spoilers))
Date: 09 Aug 2000 18:04:28 -0700

Sam Felice wrote:

<<I have kind of mixed feelings about that.  I mean, they were supposed to be
the 10 most powerful sorcerers (Dominator and Lady not withstanding) around at
the time.  Most of them got killed off relatively easily during the battle at
Charm.  So, they don't seem as powerful as they should have been.>>

Granted that they were the 10 most powerful OF THEIR TIME, but you have to
remember that they've been in the ground for hundreds of years, so there's been
plenty of chances for other powerful wizards to arise in the mean time. I got
the idea that several of the Circle wizards were no slouches themselves. For
example: look how many of the Taken had to gang up on Harden to take him out...
and even then, he managed to take the Hanged Man with him when he died.  Also
there were a number of indications that Whisper was in the same league as the
rest of the Taken, and I got the idea that Feather and Journey were pretty tough
customers as well.
Another point to consider is that just because a wizard is powerful doesn't
necessarily make him or her resourceful--or devious for that matter. A wizard
who lacked subtlety (take Limper for example) can be outwitted even though he
outclasses his opponent in magical ability. The ones who survived the longest
(Soulcatcher, Shapeshifter and the Howler) were the most devious. The ones that
got scragged took unnecessary risks, allowed their pride to  cloud their better
judgment (Limper), or trusted the wrong people (Shapeshifter).

<<And since then the Company has run into other sorcerers who, instead of taking
over the whole land of the South, were merely content to rule over a bunch of
small, backwards swamp-dwellers.  So you'd think that these sorcerers weren't
very powerful.  Yet they seemed to put up more of a fight than the taken.>>

You're referring to Howler. He stopped trying to "take over the world" so to
speak because he was tired of being stomped on... it says as much in _She is the
Darkness_ Perfectly understandable, after what happened at the Shadowgate
initially, he didn't think joining up with the Shadowmasters was worth the risk.
In contrast, the Limper had his mind set on the Silver Spike, but instead of
gathering his strength slowly and waiting for the furor to settle down before
making his move, he went charging in with no regard for what he was getting
himself into. It ended up costing him his life, too.

<<I guess my point is that while the Shadowmasters seemed like they should have
been less powerful than the Taken, they were more trouble.  And though the Taken
should have been more powerful, they seemed to fall rather easily.>>

Why? When the Black company went up against the Taken in the North, they had the
White Rose and all the creatures of the plain to back them up. That was a lot
more "firepower" than they had at their disposal after they went south. When
they faced the Shadowmasters, all they had were Goblin, One-Eye and Lady, and
Lady still hadn't been able to siphon off much power from Kina at that point.
And they weren't just facing the Shadowmasters: Soulcatcher kept interfering,
and they didn't have Shapeshifter either because after they took Dejagore, they
did him and Stormbringer in. So basically, they were going up against three 1st
rate wizards (two Shadowmasters and Soulcatcher) with only Goblin, One-Eye and
Lady to back them up. WHy shouldn't it have been more difficult?

<<My take on this, though, is that most of the Taken died due to infighting
between the Taken.  And since they're all sorcerers of the highest caliber, it
kind of evens the playing field and allows them to kill each other off more
easily.>> [....]

I agree 100%.

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From: "Brooke A. Wheeler" <bawheeler@MEDIAONE.NET>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) North vs. South
Date: 09 Aug 2000 18:17:39 -0700


Eric Herrmann wrote:

<<I have a hard time believing that people actually like the Books of the South
and Glittering Stone.>>

Why? I enjoyed them every bit as much as the first three (well, except for that
cliffhanger ending in _She is the Darkness_...) And my favorite book of the
whole series is _Silver Spike_. They have a different tone and focus, I'll grant
you that, but I enjoy the change of pace.

<<Why? Because the discussion of this list is dominated by what was written in
955 pages 15 years ago and not the 2400 pages that were written since. There
aren't discussions about ShadowMasters, Gunni, Shadar, Deceivers, Taglios,
Shivetya, Kina, etc. You may get one or two replies if you are lucky.>>

I seem to recall a recent thread where we discussed the significance of naming
and why they didn't name Soulcatcher when they had the chance in _She is the
Darkness_, also a discussion of how Lady could start using magic again after
being named... there have been others.
As for the Deceivers, I think he did a pretty good job on those guys. They're
really scary... gave my sister nightmares when she read the books!
 
[....]

<<And even most of the Soldiers Live discussion seems to take place in the
context of the Books of the North than within the rest of Glittering Stone.>>

Give it some time. The book just came out and any of us haven't even had a
chance to read it yet. It'll take some time for us to absorb it even after we've
read it. I know there were several things in the series that I didn't pick up on
'til my second read through it. After that,  I had a few more questions to
ponder.

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From: "Brooke A. Wheeler" <bawheeler@MEDIAONE.NET>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) North vs. South
Date: 09 Aug 2000 18:30:59 -0700

Jamison Wood wrote:
> 
> Its all about the villians...
> In the books of the North, you have the Ten, and what a bunch of wily,
> backstabing, insane sorcerers! Now they made great villians.
> Look at the villians in the South:
> Longshadow: insane, but so very afraid of the shadows.  He never lifts a
> finger sorcerously except to release some shadows.  He's basically a
> simpering fool in a really big castle.

Soulcatcher is the biggest, baddest villain of them all. None of the other bad
guys in the series quite measure up to her, except the Dominator (who we only
see briefly) and the Limper. Granted, she appears in the first book but she
plays no part in the subsequent books of the north. YOu also have to include
Mogaba... even though he's not a wizard, he is on bad-ass S.O.B.

> The rest of the shadowmasters: Not quite as hard to kill as the Taken.
> Also did they ever contribute anything to any of the battles except for
> the web that Soulcatcher destroyed over Dejagore?
> Naryan and Booboo: Great idea for a secret cult of hidden assassins, but
> all they do is stay hidden.  They make one attempt at the palace, and
> basically end up killing a bunch of ancilliary characters.
> Kina: was it just me, or did she sleep through all the books?

> I'm not being totally serious, and while I did love all the BC books, I
> just didn't find the "bad guys" to be all that terrible in the south.
> Maybe if Longshadow had had time to finish his fortress...

I thought Narayan Singh was just the most devious, despicable, black-hearted
{insert expletives} little snot I've ever run across in literature. When he
kidnapped Lady and Croaker's daughter, that made me mad and I kept hoping to see
him get squashed like a bug. How much more terrible could he have been?

[....]

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From: "mike kimball" <maestro76@hotmail.com>
Subject: (glencook-fans) alternative series
Date: 10 Aug 2000 01:58:06 GMT

I finished David Gemmel's Legend awhile ago, and I was wondering if the 
other books in the series are as good?  if so, which ones should i try next? 
  sorry im off topic, but i have to find something else to read now that i'm 
done with soldiers live!  thanks!

Mike Kimball



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From: Eric Herrmann <shpshftr@xmission.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) North vs. South
Date: 09 Aug 2000 20:54:23 -0600

on 8/9/00 4:48 PM, Aaron Contreras at Aaron.Contreras@sierra.com wrote:

> One instance really sums up the differences between the two series:
> 
> Remember when Croaker & the Company work with 'Shifter to take out the
> Limper?
> What an increidble scene.  All the tension was amazing.

I think what you are saying is that in the North the books were centered
around squads and not armies. As Croaker shifted to being the Captain the
focus shifted from squad missions to army maneuvers. The closeness and
intimacy of the squad was lost to the impersonal, individual leaders.

I agree. I enjoyed the squad missions more than the politics.

-- 
Eric Herrmann
<shpshftr@xmission.com>


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From: "Nicholas J Thalasinos" <thalpres@BellAtlantic.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) The Taken, The Circle and Bomanz
Date: 09 Aug 2000 23:52:22 -0400

Bomanz' Power Level:
The way I remember it, after The Lady fished him out of the Barrow, not only
was he resigned to the Lady transforming him into a Taken (something she &
The Dominator only did to their most powerful foes), But latter on (in the
White Rose) he kills the Dragon that was guarding the Dominator - all by
himself!

Then, after that titanic battle (where he basically destroyed it from the
inside out) he manages to hide himself from everyone, creating some kind of
illusion of his own death.

Seems to me he's as tough as ANY Taken - in fact, I'm not so sure he's dead
this time, either. He obviously sets up a lot of contigencies, and has
managed to survive forces that would kill most of them without the advantage
of being undead (Most of the Taken have always struck me as Liches, as the
act of being Taken was once described- by Croaker watching Lady do it- as
killing someone then recreating them as your slave. At the least, the spell
seemed to destroy part of their soul.)

Just because Bomanz would rather sit home quietly and study instead of
Ruling does not make him any less ruthless in his pursuit of knowledge or
power.


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From: CookReader@aol.com
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) North vs. South
Date: 10 Aug 2000 00:14:46 EDT


In a message dated 8/9/00 9:54:44 PM, shpshftr@xmission.com writes:

>on 8/9/00 4:48 PM, Aaron Contreras at Aaron.Contreras@sierra.com wrote:
>
>> One instance really sums up the differences between the two series:
>> 
>> Remember when Croaker & the Company work with 'Shifter to take out the
>> Limper?
>> What an increidble scene.  All the tension was amazing.
>
>I think what you are saying is that in the North the books were centered
>around squads and not armies. As Croaker shifted to being the Captain the
>focus shifted from squad missions to army maneuvers. The closeness and
>intimacy of the squad was lost to the impersonal, individual leaders.
>
>I agree. I enjoyed the squad missions more than the politics.

Well, I never really thought about this, but I agree. Small group tactics
are more interesting to me, since they usually seemed reasonable. On
large group tactics, I spent too much time questioning Cook's tactics,
and too often deciding he was wrong. Or even if not wrong I a lot of
times had no idea what he was doing.

Also, I like the guys in the trenches, not the management. The grunts
are cooler than the guys with the smarts. The mass burials and the
"not nice" guys are the Company. The cleaned up stuff we get at the
top level is...

well, just wrong.

If you're going to have blood and guts and killing, let me have it from
the viewpoint of someone doing it, or at least running along side.

christopher....

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From: Lee Childs <childsl@earthlink.net>
Subject: (glencook-fans) North vs. South: it's the villians
Date: 09 Aug 2000 23:00:51 -0700


--------------482EE0977CD6C07FB71EDF75
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I also prefer the first three books, and Soldiers Live.  The villians in the first
three, especially the Taken, Lady, and Whisper, were wonderful.  Only Mogaba in
the South enjoys the same stature for me.

Cook did a masterful job of making Soulcatcher and Lady both evil and noble in the
first book.  Mogaba took several books to evolve into the same balance of noble
and evil qualities.

I enjoyed the Books of the South and the Glittering Plain.  But I loved the
original trilogy.  That was excellent and the first Black Company was (for me), a
classic.

Crazy villians are okay.  Evil villians are okay.  But I always felt that Cook
really loved Soulcather, Lady, and Mogaba.  I really cared about what happened to
them.  The villians are why I prefer the first three books.

Lee Childs

--------------482EE0977CD6C07FB71EDF75
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
I also prefer the first three books, and <U>Soldiers Live</U>.&nbsp; The
villians in the first three, especially the Taken, Lady, and Whisper, were
wonderful.&nbsp; Only Mogaba in the South enjoys the same stature for me.

<P>Cook did a masterful job of making Soulcatcher and Lady both evil and
noble in the first book.&nbsp; Mogaba took several books to evolve into
the same balance of noble and evil qualities.

<P>I enjoyed the Books of the South and the Glittering Plain.&nbsp; But
I loved the original trilogy.&nbsp; That was excellent and the first <U>Black
Company</U> was (for me), a classic.

<P>Crazy villians are okay.&nbsp; Evil villians are okay.&nbsp; But I always
felt that Cook really loved Soulcather, Lady, and Mogaba.&nbsp; I really
cared about what happened to them.&nbsp; The villians are why I prefer
the first three books.

<P>Lee Childs</HTML>

--------------482EE0977CD6C07FB71EDF75--


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From: Craig Dutton <craigld@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) The Taken, The Circle and Bomanz
Date: 10 Aug 2000 02:50:09 -0700 (PDT)

--- Lich <lich@mtco.com> wrote:
> The Taken
> Somebody was wondering whether ANY of the Taken went down permanently at
> Charm.  In Water Sleeps it mentions that "several" of the Taken were present
> when Longshadow first opened and bound his true name to the Shadowgate.
> During that incident, some of the sorcerers present were destroyed.  It
> doesn't specify how many though.
> 
> Personally, I think the only Taken that got smoked at Charm were The Hanged
> Man, and Bonegnasher.  We Know Stormbringer, Limper, Soulcatcher, Howler and
> Shapeshifter survived.  Counting the Hanged Man, this makes six that we KNOW
> the fate of.  I'm guessing on Bonegnasher just because he seemed too simple
> straightforward to be involved in all kinds of duplicitous plots.  From the
> Lady's perspective, I'm thinking he was the "best" of the Taken.  That
> leaves Nameless, Nightcrawler and Moonbiter unnaccounted for.  I'm thinking
> they were the sorcerers destroyed at the Shadowgate incident.

Possible.  Remember that "The Taken were among those present" and "Some of the
sorcerors were destroyed" may not equate to "The Taken were killed".  Besides,
it's not like the accounts of a Taken's death haven't been exaggerated before.


I also wouldn't count on The Hanged Man being dead.  Remember, Croaker was
allowed to record his death.  Why would they, if not because they wanted to be
able to "prove" he was dead later?   Because it was a brain wound, I'd list him
as probably dead, but no better.


> 
> The Circle and Bomanz
> While I would agree that the Circle were up to the level of proto-taken,
> there's a big difference between proto and full fledged.  If you recall,
> during the nights at Charm, all 18 of the circle were continually on the
> defensive (and not mounting a very good one either) because the "Taken were
> too damn strong."  I would say that between the 18, they had the capability
> of two maybe three of the Taken, if that.
> 
By this point, though, they had already taen out many of the best of the Rebel
Circle, like Harden, Raker, Feather, and Journey.


__________________________________________________
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Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.
http://invites.yahoo.com/

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From: "Timothy P. Taylor" <tptaylor@genuity.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) North vs. South
Date: 10 Aug 2000 07:41:36 -0400

	Reading the threads on this discussion, it struck me how much I enjoyed
Bleak Seasons.  While the pace does seem to be faster in the books of the
north, I really enjoyed the unfolding of the story.  Cook really seems to be
able to grasp characterization, at no time did I ever find myself wondering
who was the "annalist".  I have very distinct different "voices" that I
associate with each of the characters, and Bleak Seasons has a whole bunch
of folks who up to now were only referred to in the third person.  This one
really fleshed out not only the people, but the entire tone of the books of
the South.  Of the entire Series, I would have to say that is one of my top
three favorites, and one that I've read almost as many times as the first
three.  Okay, I like military SF and Military fantasy, and this book really
has the best of all worlds...imho of course! <grin>

	In contrast, some of the larger battles the company was involved in during
its sojourn in the North, you are lucky to get maybe two lines about it, I
believe when they captured one of the fortresses (don't have them in front
of me) there was a couple of lines that were like "so the company went and
did it." (not an exact, sorry, at work) and that was it.  While the company
was down to 7 people after Silent, Darling and the Touk? brothers left, the
siege, whittling down and split of Nar and Old company factions (in Bleak
Seasons)to me was a much greater hurdle...one that Cook handled beautifully,
with the Company becoming like a piece of steel...tempered and strengthened
after plunging into the glowing flames.

	I don't think that Bleak Seasons is the "high" point of the entire series,
I enjoyed each of the subsequent books, but Bleak Seasons really captured
the feel of the company and what life was like, with Cook doing an amazing
job.

Tim Taylor

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Jordan Raney
> Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 4:01 PM
> To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) North vs. South
>
>
> > Maybe if Longshadow had had time to finish his fortress...
>
>
> No no, I think this is one of the huge problems with the books of
> the south.
> It takes so long for anything to happen!  If he had finished his castle it
> probably would have taken even longer while they sat there and sieged it.
> In the books of the north they were constantly moving around, and Cook
> worried more about keeping the plot moving along than inserting details
> about so and so's favorite aspect of his favorite Gunni god.....
>
>
> =======================================================================
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From: "Warner, Jon" <Jon.Warner@ps.net>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) North vs. South
Date: 10 Aug 2000 09:38:02 -0500


>I don't 
> see any discernible
> reduction of quality between the books of the North and the 
> South.


	I don't see a reduction of quality either.  I think Glen's writing
style retained most all of the things that I've come to love about him over
the years. I was simply pointing to one of the things that draws me to the
first three books as opposed to the books of the South.  Yes, Cook made some
"gutsy" writing decisions that took some "nerve".  That doesn't necessarily
mean they're great stories.

Of course, that's just my opinion... I could be wrong. 

JW
  
	
 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: C.L. Yona [mailto:junkboy@cyberwhirled.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 5:50 PM
> To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) North vs. South
> 
> 
> I have to chip my couple of pennies in and say that I don't 
> see any discernible
> reduction of quality between the books of the North and the 
> South.  In fact, I
> think Cook pulls off a pretty neat trick by moving from one 
> "battle for control
> of the world" situation to another. He also reduced the 
> Company down to what -
> 6 members?  Gutsy.  Perhaps the Northerners (heh) like the 
> earlier books better
> because they stayed with the characters that you knew from 
> the beginning - The
> Captain, Silent, Raven, etc.  Down in the South the books are 
> a little more
> daring, a little more inventive - Annalists change, bringing 
> new perspectives;
> the enemies are more numerous and not always as obvious;  entirely new
> cultures, wildly different from one another, are introduced.  
>   As for Water
> Sleeps, I thought it was fantastic - how much nerve does it 
> take for a writer
> to remove one of the series' most central characters for 
> almost the entire
> book?  I give Cook credit.  He's not satisfied with just 
> writing a tale, he's
> going to keep you off-guard.  Better than recycling tired 
> storyline and warmed
> over crap like too many of today's fantasy writers do.
> 
> yer dog, shooting off his mouth
> 
> "Warner, Jon" wrote:
> 
> > I was thinking along the same lines.  There is a very 
> "alien" feel to the
> > books of the South, which I think was intentional. I think 
> it's good world
> > building on Cook's part to have such cultural diversity. 
> The further you go
> > from your point of origin, the more awkward you feel.  For 
> the readers who
> > began the journey with Croaker in _The Black Company_ the 
> North is our
> > 'point of origin'.  While the south was interesting, I 
> never felt the
> > attachment I did to the earlier books.  Perhaps this was 
> fostered by the
> > supposition that the South lands were just a place to pass 
> through on the
> > way to Khatovar.  Unfortunately, for me anyway, the South 
> became the end
> > rather than the means.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ==============================================================
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>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
> 


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From: "OBRIEN,LEE (HP-Boise,ex1)" <lee_obrien@hp.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) North vs. South        !!  (SL Spoilers)
Date: 10 Aug 2000 09:14:24 -0600


I liked the entire series, though i would agree that I liked the intamacy
and character development of the early books.  But how great was the Blade
thing at Charadaprash.  For a whole book, we al thought he was a bad guy.  I
love the fact that Croaker gets to flex his devious muscles and practice his
dirty tricks for a few books.  As for Glittering Stone, I wasn't as caught
up in the characters or the alien setting, but I knew that Cook's twisted
sense of justice would win out in the end and the bad guys like Narayan
would get theirs.  I absoutely loved the end.  Croaker gets to live forever
and there are a number of really good plots waiting to be explored, or
waiting to hang out there at the edges of imagination forever.  Will Sahra
and Hong Tray's ghosts be able to contain the growing darkness in Tobo.
Will daughter #1 make a good annalist.  What will Lady do with her new
power.  Does Soulcatcher get to wake up.  Can Croaker find a way to bring
back Booboo, and what would she turn out like.  I think it might be cool if
Cook would release a book of short stories based on Croaker's (new and
improved, Shivetya enhanced) memories of the histories of the different
worlds.  Ahh... I guess I could go on for a while, but ....


In a message dated 8/9/00 9:54:44 PM, shpshftr@xmission.com writes:

>on 8/9/00 4:48 PM, Aaron Contreras at Aaron.Contreras@sierra.com wrote:
>
>> One instance really sums up the differences between the two series:
>> 
>> Remember when Croaker & the Company work with 'Shifter to take out the
>> Limper?
>> What an increidble scene.  All the tension was amazing.
>
>I think what you are saying is that in the North the books were centered
>around squads and not armies. As Croaker shifted to being the Captain the
>focus shifted from squad missions to army maneuvers. The closeness and
>intimacy of the squad was lost to the impersonal, individual leaders.
>
>I agree. I enjoyed the squad missions more than the politics.

Well, I never really thought about this, but I agree. Small group tactics
are more interesting to me, since they usually seemed reasonable. On
large group tactics, I spent too much time questioning Cook's tactics,
and too often deciding he was wrong. Or even if not wrong I a lot of
times had no idea what he was doing.

Also, I like the guys in the trenches, not the management. The grunts
are cooler than the guys with the smarts. The mass burials and the
"not nice" guys are the Company. The cleaned up stuff we get at the
top level is...

well, just wrong.

If you're going to have blood and guts and killing, let me have it from
the viewpoint of someone doing it, or at least running along side.

christopher....

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From: Aaron Contreras <Aaron.Contreras@sierra.com>
Subject: (glencook-fans) SL Spoilers.
Date: 10 Aug 2000 08:41:08 -0700



Lots of SL spoilers.  Don't read me.

While I really enjoyed Soldier's Live, I find he worked a little bit too
hard to wrap everything up.  It doesn't feel like it should have been the
last book of the Glittering Stone.  It could have been...but he threw lots
of totally new plot elements in there which made the story a little longer.

Tobo, I felt, could have been handled much better.  He doesn't quite seem as
awesome as he is supposed to be and his insanity...seems forced and very
sudden.

The body count was very depressing.  Most of the folks that died deserved a
Goblin-eque way of going out in style - at least on frickin' camera.  I
don't think the Captain really ever got a chance...there was so much
character left to discover there.

The resolution with Booboo disappointed as well.  This character has had
some serious, serious foreshadowing (like Thi Kim is getting now) and it
sort've fizzles out.  Same with the Nyueng Bao mystery.


By the way - who were all the women who 'were the darkness'?  I remember
Booboo, Lady, Soulcatcher and...Sahra, right?  Why Sahra?

Aaron

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 8:14 AM



I liked the entire series, though i would agree that I liked the intamacy
and character development of the early books.  But how great was the Blade
thing at Charadaprash.  For a whole book, we al thought he was a bad guy.  I
love the fact that Croaker gets to flex his devious muscles and practice his
dirty tricks for a few books.  As for Glittering Stone, I wasn't as caught
up in the characters or the alien setting, but I knew that Cook's twisted
sense of justice would win out in the end and the bad guys like Narayan
would get theirs.  I absoutely loved the end.  Croaker gets to live forever
and there are a number of really good plots waiting to be explored, or
waiting to hang out there at the edges of imagination forever.  Will Sahra
and Hong Tray's ghosts be able to contain the growing darkness in Tobo.
Will daughter #1 make a good annalist.  What will Lady do with her new
power.  Does Soulcatcher get to wake up.  Can Croaker find a way to bring
back Booboo, and what would she turn out like.  I think it might be cool if
Cook would release a book of short stories based on Croaker's (new and
improved, Shivetya enhanced) memories of the histories of the different
worlds.  Ahh... I guess I could go on for a while, but ....


In a message dated 8/9/00 9:54:44 PM, shpshftr@xmission.com writes:

>on 8/9/00 4:48 PM, Aaron Contreras at Aaron.Contreras@sierra.com wrote:
>
>> One instance really sums up the differences between the two series:
>> 
>> Remember when Croaker & the Company work with 'Shifter to take out the
>> Limper?
>> What an increidble scene.  All the tension was amazing.
>
>I think what you are saying is that in the North the books were centered
>around squads and not armies. As Croaker shifted to being the Captain the
>focus shifted from squad missions to army maneuvers. The closeness and
>intimacy of the squad was lost to the impersonal, individual leaders.
>
>I agree. I enjoyed the squad missions more than the politics.

Well, I never really thought about this, but I agree. Small group tactics
are more interesting to me, since they usually seemed reasonable. On
large group tactics, I spent too much time questioning Cook's tactics,
and too often deciding he was wrong. Or even if not wrong I a lot of
times had no idea what he was doing.

Also, I like the guys in the trenches, not the management. The grunts
are cooler than the guys with the smarts. The mass burials and the
"not nice" guys are the Company. The cleaned up stuff we get at the
top level is...

well, just wrong.

If you're going to have blood and guts and killing, let me have it from
the viewpoint of someone doing it, or at least running along side.

christopher....

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mike Ehlers" <maehlers@hewitt.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) North vs. South !! (SL Spoilers)
Date: 10 Aug 2000 10:58:45 -0500



I remember reading in one of the BC books it stated that a "Dominator" comes
about every so often.  Anyone else think that Cook could be setting
Tobo up to be another Dominator-type person?  Could make for an interesting
book...

MIke





Please respond to glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com

cc:
Client:




I liked the entire series, though i would agree that I liked the intamacy
and character development of the early books.  But how great was the Blade
thing at Charadaprash.  For a whole book, we al thought he was a bad guy.  I
love the fact that Croaker gets to flex his devious muscles and practice his
dirty tricks for a few books.  As for Glittering Stone, I wasn't as caught
up in the characters or the alien setting, but I knew that Cook's twisted
sense of justice would win out in the end and the bad guys like Narayan
would get theirs.  I absoutely loved the end.  Croaker gets to live forever
and there are a number of really good plots waiting to be explored, or
waiting to hang out there at the edges of imagination forever.  Will Sahra
and Hong Tray's ghosts be able to contain the growing darkness in Tobo.
Will daughter #1 make a good annalist.  What will Lady do with her new
power.  Does Soulcatcher get to wake up.  Can Croaker find a way to bring
back Booboo, and what would she turn out like.  I think it might be cool if
Cook would release a book of short stories based on Croaker's (new and
improved, Shivetya enhanced) memories of the histories of the different
worlds.  Ahh... I guess I could go on for a while, but ....


In a message dated 8/9/00 9:54:44 PM, shpshftr@xmission.com writes:

>on 8/9/00 4:48 PM, Aaron Contreras at Aaron.Contreras@sierra.com wrote:
>
>> One instance really sums up the differences between the two series:
>>
>> Remember when Croaker & the Company work with 'Shifter to take out the
>> Limper?
>> What an increidble scene.  All the tension was amazing.
>
>I think what you are saying is that in the North the books were centered
>around squads and not armies. As Croaker shifted to being the Captain the
>focus shifted from squad missions to army maneuvers. The closeness and
>intimacy of the squad was lost to the impersonal, individual leaders.
>
>I agree. I enjoyed the squad missions more than the politics.

Well, I never really thought about this, but I agree. Small group tactics
are more interesting to me, since they usually seemed reasonable. On
large group tactics, I spent too much time questioning Cook's tactics,
and too often deciding he was wrong. Or even if not wrong I a lot of
times had no idea what he was doing.

Also, I like the guys in the trenches, not the management. The grunts
are cooler than the guys with the smarts. The mass burials and the
"not nice" guys are the Company. The cleaned up stuff we get at the
top level is...

well, just wrong.

If you're going to have blood and guts and killing, let me have it from
the viewpoint of someone doing it, or at least running along side.

christopher....

=======================================================================
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=======================================================================
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Wright Frazier" <khelek@cioe.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) North vs. South !! (SL Spoilers)
Date: 10 Aug 2000 11:16:27 -0500

Now that is a damn interesting notion.

Personally, I really hope that Cook continues with the series, or what I'd
really love is a series set in the era of the domination.

Wright

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 10:58 AM


>
>
> I remember reading in one of the BC books it stated that a "Dominator"
comes
> about every so often.  Anyone else think that Cook could be setting
> Tobo up to be another Dominator-type person?  Could make for an
interesting
> book...
>
> MIke
>
>
>
>
> From: "OBRIEN,LEE (HP-Boise,ex1)" <lee_obrien@hp.com> on 08/10/2000 10:14
AM
>
> Please respond to glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
>
> To:   "'glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com'"
<glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com>
> cc:
> Client:
> Subject:  RE: (glencook-fans) North vs. South        !!  (SL Spoilers)
>
>
>
>
> I liked the entire series, though i would agree that I liked the intamacy
> and character development of the early books.  But how great was the Blade
> thing at Charadaprash.  For a whole book, we al thought he was a bad guy.
I
> love the fact that Croaker gets to flex his devious muscles and practice
his
> dirty tricks for a few books.  As for Glittering Stone, I wasn't as caught
> up in the characters or the alien setting, but I knew that Cook's twisted
> sense of justice would win out in the end and the bad guys like Narayan
> would get theirs.  I absoutely loved the end.  Croaker gets to live
forever
> and there are a number of really good plots waiting to be explored, or
> waiting to hang out there at the edges of imagination forever.  Will Sahra
> and Hong Tray's ghosts be able to contain the growing darkness in Tobo.
> Will daughter #1 make a good annalist.  What will Lady do with her new
> power.  Does Soulcatcher get to wake up.  Can Croaker find a way to bring
> back Booboo, and what would she turn out like.  I think it might be cool
if
> Cook would release a book of short stories based on Croaker's (new and
> improved, Shivetya enhanced) memories of the histories of the different
> worlds.  Ahh... I guess I could go on for a while, but ....
>
>
> In a message dated 8/9/00 9:54:44 PM, shpshftr@xmission.com writes:
>
> >on 8/9/00 4:48 PM, Aaron Contreras at Aaron.Contreras@sierra.com wrote:
> >
> >> One instance really sums up the differences between the two series:
> >>
> >> Remember when Croaker & the Company work with 'Shifter to take out the
> >> Limper?
> >> What an increidble scene.  All the tension was amazing.
> >
> >I think what you are saying is that in the North the books were centered
> >around squads and not armies. As Croaker shifted to being the Captain the
> >focus shifted from squad missions to army maneuvers. The closeness and
> >intimacy of the squad was lost to the impersonal, individual leaders.
> >
> >I agree. I enjoyed the squad missions more than the politics.
>
> Well, I never really thought about this, but I agree. Small group tactics
> are more interesting to me, since they usually seemed reasonable. On
> large group tactics, I spent too much time questioning Cook's tactics,
> and too often deciding he was wrong. Or even if not wrong I a lot of
> times had no idea what he was doing.
>
> Also, I like the guys in the trenches, not the management. The grunts
> are cooler than the guys with the smarts. The mass burials and the
> "not nice" guys are the Company. The cleaned up stuff we get at the
> top level is...
>
> well, just wrong.
>
> If you're going to have blood and guts and killing, let me have it from
> the viewpoint of someone doing it, or at least running along side.
>
> christopher....
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> =======================================================================
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>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: AndersNJ@bscmail.buffalostate.edu
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) North vs. South        !!  (SL Spoilers)
Date: 10 Aug 2000 13:10:34 -0400

Truthfully as a whole right now I like the north books alot more than the
south books.  #1 because it felt more raw and gritty then the newer ones
did. #2 I liked the story lines better than in the south books.

Now that isnt saying I dont like the south, there are some great things
happening.. I like the whole glittering plain dealie... and as said below
the blade double cross was so perfectly planned it was amazing.... nice
strategy there...

I am currently about 1/3 through SL and I like it so far.. but it still
doesnt sit as well as the first trilogy did.

later
nick


Nicholas Anderson
Computer Support Development Coordinator
Buffalo State College
andersnj@bscmail.buffalostate.edu
http://www.buffalostate.edu/~nick
Fresh in my mind the dream stays
slowly eating away at my mind
It does not like to be kind
But who am I to argue.


-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 11:14 AM



I liked the entire series, though i would agree that I liked the intamacy
and character development of the early books.  But how great was the Blade
thing at Charadaprash.  For a whole book, we al thought he was a bad guy.  I
love the fact that Croaker gets to flex his devious muscles and practice his
dirty tricks for a few books.  As for Glittering Stone, I wasn't as caught
up in the characters or the alien setting, but I knew that Cook's twisted
sense of justice would win out in the end and the bad guys like Narayan
would get theirs.  I absoutely loved the end.  Croaker gets to live forever
and there are a number of really good plots waiting to be explored, or
waiting to hang out there at the edges of imagination forever.  Will Sahra
and Hong Tray's ghosts be able to contain the growing darkness in Tobo.
Will daughter #1 make a good annalist.  What will Lady do with her new
power.  Does Soulcatcher get to wake up.  Can Croaker find a way to bring
back Booboo, and what would she turn out like.  I think it might be cool if
Cook would release a book of short stories based on Croaker's (new and
improved, Shivetya enhanced) memories of the histories of the different
worlds.  Ahh... I guess I could go on for a while, but ....


In a message dated 8/9/00 9:54:44 PM, shpshftr@xmission.com writes:

>on 8/9/00 4:48 PM, Aaron Contreras at Aaron.Contreras@sierra.com wrote:
>
>> One instance really sums up the differences between the two series:
>> 
>> Remember when Croaker & the Company work with 'Shifter to take out the
>> Limper?
>> What an increidble scene.  All the tension was amazing.
>
>I think what you are saying is that in the North the books were centered
>around squads and not armies. As Croaker shifted to being the Captain the
>focus shifted from squad missions to army maneuvers. The closeness and
>intimacy of the squad was lost to the impersonal, individual leaders.
>
>I agree. I enjoyed the squad missions more than the politics.

Well, I never really thought about this, but I agree. Small group tactics
are more interesting to me, since they usually seemed reasonable. On
large group tactics, I spent too much time questioning Cook's tactics,
and too often deciding he was wrong. Or even if not wrong I a lot of
times had no idea what he was doing.

Also, I like the guys in the trenches, not the management. The grunts
are cooler than the guys with the smarts. The mass burials and the
"not nice" guys are the Company. The cleaned up stuff we get at the
top level is...

well, just wrong.

If you're going to have blood and guts and killing, let me have it from
the viewpoint of someone doing it, or at least running along side.

christopher....

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From: Stacey Harris <harrissg@slu.edu>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Re: Taken & Forsaken (no spoilers)
Date: 10 Aug 2000 12:09:23 -0500

Hi, all,

"The Taken are some of the most brilliant villains ever conceived of for
a fantasy setting."

I agree (with referece, at least, to Soulcatcher and the Limper--the
others are not drawn only a bit, such as Shapeshifter and Howler, or not
at all).

The obvious comparison (in my mind) is with Robert Jordan's bunch of
villains, the Forsaken (from the Wheel of Time series--I call it the
Dragon Reborn series).  Same sort of set-up:  Sorcerous baddies from a
previous era were put down in the ground by the last of the Big-time
Heroes of that age; and now they're starting to wake up and wreak havoc
in the present age, though without a lot of aid from their Chieftain,
who is still (somewhat) bound.

Jordan has spent about 8 very long books so far on his story-line, all
set in pretty much the same world and spanning only a few years thus
far.  This has given him range to develop some of the Forsaken into
engaging personalities (notably Lanfear and Asmodeus).

Any opinions on Jordan's success in creating an atmosphere of both dread
and peronsal interest around his baddies, vs. Cook's?

-------

I still think no one has the wonderfully evocative imagery of sorcerous
battles  (from petty duels to major battle magics) that Cook displays,
especially in the Books of the North.

Steve

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From: "Wright Frazier" <khelek@cioe.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: Taken & Forsaken (no spoilers)
Date: 10 Aug 2000 12:17:17 -0500

Cook does it better.  I like jordan, but the book where half of the 500
pages were of Braid Tugger (nynaeve) and Sniffer (Elayne) were on a damn
wagon just disgusted me.  It marked a HUGE down turn in his writing, he's to
concerned with the trivial stuff.

I MUCH prefer Cook's approach.  The villans are much more villaneous.  These
are dispiciable people, and their nastiness is enhanced by the less than
thorough reporting of them.  The Taken are mysterious and vile and utterly
evil.  The Forsaken are just naughty with no mystery too'em.

I like the unknown qualities in my villans.

Wright

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 12:09 PM


> Hi, all,
>
> "The Taken are some of the most brilliant villains ever conceived of for
> a fantasy setting."
>
> I agree (with referece, at least, to Soulcatcher and the Limper--the
> others are not drawn only a bit, such as Shapeshifter and Howler, or not
> at all).
>
> The obvious comparison (in my mind) is with Robert Jordan's bunch of
> villains, the Forsaken (from the Wheel of Time series--I call it the
> Dragon Reborn series).  Same sort of set-up:  Sorcerous baddies from a
> previous era were put down in the ground by the last of the Big-time
> Heroes of that age; and now they're starting to wake up and wreak havoc
> in the present age, though without a lot of aid from their Chieftain,
> who is still (somewhat) bound.
>
> Jordan has spent about 8 very long books so far on his story-line, all
> set in pretty much the same world and spanning only a few years thus
> far.  This has given him range to develop some of the Forsaken into
> engaging personalities (notably Lanfear and Asmodeus).
>
> Any opinions on Jordan's success in creating an atmosphere of both dread
> and peronsal interest around his baddies, vs. Cook's?
>
> -------
>
> I still think no one has the wonderfully evocative imagery of sorcerous
> battles  (from petty duels to major battle magics) that Cook displays,
> especially in the Books of the North.
>
> Steve
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>



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From: A Durston <acd@lucent.com>
Subject: [Spoilers] Re: (glencook-fans) Re: Taken & Forsaken (no spoilers)
Date: 10 Aug 2000 13:23:35 -0400

Spoiler Space ==




























I think the Cliff Notes version of Jordan's books will be
eminently more readable. :)

Side Note: SL feels like those old Marvel comics when
the cover said "In this issue - Everybody Dies!!"

Ciao,
Andrew

Wright Frazier wrote:
> 
> Cook does it better.  I like jordan, but the book where half of the 500
> pages were of Braid Tugger (nynaeve) and Sniffer (Elayne) were on a damn
> wagon just disgusted me.  It marked a HUGE down turn in his writing, he's to
> concerned with the trivial stuff.
> 
> I MUCH prefer Cook's approach.  The villans are much more villaneous.  These
> are dispiciable people, and their nastiness is enhanced by the less than
> thorough reporting of them.  The Taken are mysterious and vile and utterly
> evil.  The Forsaken are just naughty with no mystery too'em.
> 
> I like the unknown qualities in my villans.
> 
> Wright
...
-- 
Andrew C Durston
Lucent Technologies, acd@lucent.com
732.949.0371 (ph), 732.949.9366 (fax),
1.800.759.8888 x1650706 (pager)

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From: "Jamison Wood" <jwood@ftdi.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: Taken & Forsaken (no spoilers)
Date: 10 Aug 2000 12:31:05 -0500

Wright Frazier wrote:
> Cook does it better.  I like jordan, but the book where half of the 500
> pages were of Braid Tugger (nynaeve) and Sniffer (Elayne) were on a damn
> wagon just disgusted me.  It marked a HUGE down turn in his writing, >he's to concerned with the trivial stuff.

ROFL!
I agree 100%, Jordan's idea of developing a character is to give them
one trait, and then have them repeat it thousands of times.  

Cook does a much better job of developing characters, look at Goblin and
One-eye, silent, croaker, lady, soulcatcher, almost every character that
is vital to the story, Cook gives them personality, and in most
characters we are given a tidbit or two of their history and what made
them who they are.  After reading the books I care about Cook's
characters.

I'm personally rooting for the Forsaken, I would love to read wholesale
slaughter of the main characters in WOT.

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From: Matthew Roche <rocheml@cerebusnm.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Re: Taken & Forsaken (no spoilers)
Date: 10 Aug 2000 11:57:03 -0600

ROFL?

<snip>
>he's to concerned with the trivial stuff.

ROFL!
I agree 100%, Jordan's idea of developing a character is to give them
one trait, and then have them repeat it thousands of times.  

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From: Craig Dutton <craigld@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: Taken & Forsaken (no spoilers)
Date: 10 Aug 2000 10:57:21 -0700 (PDT)

--- Stacey Harris <harrissg@slu.edu> wrote:
> The obvious comparison (in my mind) is with Robert Jordan's bunch of
> villains, the Forsaken (from the Wheel of Time series--I call it the
> Dragon Reborn series).  Same sort of set-up:  Sorcerous baddies from a
> previous era were put down in the ground by the last of the Big-time
> Heroes of that age; and now they're starting to wake up and wreak havoc
> in the present age, though without a lot of aid from their Chieftain,
> who is still (somewhat) bound.
> 
> Jordan has spent about 8 very long books so far on his story-line, all
> set in pretty much the same world and spanning only a few years thus
> far.  This has given him range to develop some of the Forsaken into
> engaging personalities (notably Lanfear and Asmodeus).
> 
> Any opinions on Jordan's success in creating an atmosphere of both dread
> and peronsal interest around his baddies, vs. Cook's?
> 
I'd give more credit to Cook, myself, at least as regards the atmosphere of
dread.  He did a better job of establishing the Taken [and Lady] as villains in
Black Company than I feel that Jordan has done in his 8 volumes.

This may in part be because The Taken work so openly; whereas the Forsaken feel
compelled to hide their identities.  But a lot of it has to do with the main
characters.

Your main characters are often a measuring stick for the power level of your
villains.  In the Wheel of Time, Rand is a match for any one of the Forsaken by
about the third or fourth book, if not earlier; and the ladies also prove
capable of dealing with one. Whereas it is established early and frequently
reinforced that none of the company are at all the equal of any of the Taken;
indeed, that even collectively the company might be unable to defeat a Taken in
battle.  IIRC, the only Taken "killed" by anyone other than another Taken
[possibly excepting SL, which I have yet to read] are killed only after they
have completely exhausted themselves in a sorcerous duel, or [in the case of
the Limper] after an ungodly extreme amount of effort.

As for establishing unique characters for the villains and creating interest in
them... Jordan may have spent more time on them, but I found Lady, Soulcatcher
& The Limper more interesting as villains than any of the Forsaken.  A good
measure is this: if pressed, I can name all but perhaps one of the Taken
without any reference sources, but would be lucky to name 3 Forsaken, even
though it's been a couple of years since I last re-read Black Company, and only
a month since I last read the latest WOT book.


Craig

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From: "Holy Paladin" <blackcompany999@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL:spoilers don't read unless you are finished
Date: 10 Aug 2000 18:40:44 EDT


SPOILER



Hey eric was it mentioned wether or not Croaker/Guardian has the daggers 
placed through and around his body. And if he didn't couldn't just walk off 
the plain, leave the rest to the nef and joing the BC physically. If he had 
the power ove shiveta couldn't like shapeshift or something inot his old 
appearance and size and continue the journey with the BC.

Well its something to think about but im probably full of it and she 
probably couldn't even fit through the gate.


one more thing, what exactly was the meaning of the Noose, that supposed to 
be special constellation
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From: "Holy Paladin" <blackcompany999@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL:spoilers don't read unless you are finished
Date: 10 Aug 2000 18:41:53 EDT


SPOILER



Hey eric was it mentioned wether or not Croaker/Guardian has the daggers 
placed through and around his body. And if he didn't couldn't just walk off 
the plain, leave the rest to the nef and joing the BC physically. If he had 
the power of shiveta couldn't like shapeshift or something into his old 
appearance and size and continue the journey with the BC.

Well its something to think about but im probably full of it and he probably 
couldn't even fit through the gate.


one more thing, what exactly was the meaning of the Noose, that supposed to 
be special constellation
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From: "Jordan Raney" <jrraney@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL:spoilers don't read unless you are finished
Date: 10 Aug 2000 18:48:20 -0500

Croaker switched places with shivetya (the guardian)...but I don't think
anything was physically changed.  So I'm pretty sure croaker is stuck inside
the guardian who is still stuck to the throne with the daggers.

JR


>
> SPOILER
>
>
>
> Hey eric was it mentioned wether or not Croaker/Guardian has the daggers
> placed through and around his body. And if he didn't couldn't just walk
off
> the plain, leave the rest to the nef and joing the BC physically. If he
had
> the power of shiveta couldn't like shapeshift or something into his old
> appearance and size and continue the journey with the BC.
>
> Well its something to think about but im probably full of it and he
probably
> couldn't even fit through the gate.
>
>
> one more thing, what exactly was the meaning of the Noose, that supposed
to
> be special constellation
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
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From: "Brooke A. Wheeler" <bawheeler@MEDIAONE.NET>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: Taken & Forsaken (no spoilers)
Date: 10 Aug 2000 17:36:02 -0700



Stacey Harris wrote:
> 
> Hi, all,
> 
> "The Taken are some of the most brilliant villains ever conceived of for
> a fantasy setting."
> 
> I agree (with referece, at least, to Soulcatcher and the Limper--the
> others are not drawn only a bit, such as Shapeshifter and Howler, or not
> at all).
> 
> The obvious comparison (in my mind) is with Robert Jordan's bunch of
> villains, the Forsaken (from the Wheel of Time series--I call it the
> Dragon Reborn series).  Same sort of set-up:  Sorcerous baddies from a
> previous era were put down in the ground by the last of the Big-time
> Heroes of that age; and now they're starting to wake up and wreak havoc
> in the present age, though without a lot of aid from their Chieftain,
> who is still (somewhat) bound.
[....]

Can't agree more. The comparison that immediately springs to mind is
Soulcatcher<=> Lanfear. Both of them are kind of crazy (like a fox) unbalanced
and neither has the slightest shred of hesitation about doing anything necessary
to get what they want.

Aside from that, I didn't notice any other parallels other than the fact that
both the Taken and the Forsaken are an evil and depraved bunch of bastards.

Some of the other comments I've read on this subject seem to indicate that
people prefer Cook's villains to Jordan's. Personally, I think you just have to
appreciate each writer's vastly differing styles. I eagerly anticipated the
release of _Soldiers_Live_ and am still impatiently awaiting the release of
Jordan's _Winter's_Heart_.

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From: "Brooke A. Wheeler" <bawheeler@MEDIAONE.NET>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: Taken & Forsaken (no spoilers)
Date: 10 Aug 2000 18:01:27 -0700



Wright Frazier wrote:
>=20
> Cook does it better.  I like jordan, but the book where half of the 500
> pages were of Braid Tugger (nynaeve) and Sniffer (Elayne) were on a dam=
n

HALF? Hmmm... not quite... At any rate, I suspect that--sooner rather tha=
n
later-- those two will suffer for their bad attitudes. Jordan is very goo=
d at
demonstrating how a twisted worldview eventually ends up wrecking your li=
fe.
After all, look what happened to Eliada and Galina (and, by extension, th=
e
entire Red Ajah): it took Jordan two books or so but it's plain now that =
nasty
people like that don't escape the consequences forever. The situation Gal=
ina's
in is especially satisfying, because she so richly deserves it.

> wagon just disgusted me.  It marked a HUGE down turn in his writing, he=
's to
> concerned with the trivial stuff.
<<Cute nicknames, BTW>>

IMNSHO, both are excellent writers, you just have to appreciate their dif=
fering
styles. I can read one of Cook's books in a couple of days. A Jordan book=
 takes
me a week or so. I will say that--at least so far--Cook obviously has his=
 whole
world very carefully planned in advance. As for Jordan, I can't say becau=
se I
don't have the whole series. Once he's finished, it will be easier to see=
 how
carefully he planned it beforehand and how tightly all the threads mesh t=
ogether
into the whole.

> I MUCH prefer Cook's approach.  The villans are much more villaneous.  =
These
> are dispiciable people, and their nastiness is enhanced by the less tha=
n
> thorough reporting of them.  The Taken are mysterious and vile and utte=
rly
> evil.  The Forsaken are just naughty with no mystery too'em.

Uh, so I suppose you consider it merely "naughty" when Lanfear rips someo=
ne's
skin off their body in one piece, or what Greandal does to people to turn=
 them
into her personal slaves? Compare a few of these things to the stuff the =
Limper
does in _Silver_Spike_ or how Several of the taken betray the Hanged Man =
on the
stair of Tear and you have to admit there's not much difference.
Just my 2=A2
[....]

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jake Kesinger <kesinger@math.ttu.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL:spoilers don't read unless you are finished
Date: 10 Aug 2000 22:13:48 -0500 (CDT)

On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, Jordan Raney wrote:












> Croaker switched places with shivetya (the guardian)...but I don't think
> anything was physically changed.  So I'm pretty sure croaker is stuck inside
> the guardian who is still stuck to the throne with the daggers.
> 
P. 495, 4th parag. One of the Voroshk girls speaking.
  ``I don't think...Shit.  Look.  Those knives are all gone from the 
  demon.''  Actually, they were laying all over the floor.

  ==Jake
 
> 
> >
> > SPOILER
> >
> >
> >
> > Hey eric was it mentioned wether or not Croaker/Guardian has the daggers
> > placed through and around his body. And if he didn't couldn't just walk
> off
> > the plain, leave the rest to the nef and joing the BC physically. If he
> had
> > the power of shiveta couldn't like shapeshift or something into his old
> > appearance and size and continue the journey with the BC.
> >
> > Well its something to think about but im probably full of it and he
> probably
> > couldn't even fit through the gate.
> >
> >
> > one more thing, what exactly was the meaning of the Noose, that supposed
> to
> > be special constellation

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From: "JM Rhodes" <jammers@netzero.net>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Re: Taken & Forsaken (no spoilers)
Date: 10 Aug 2000 20:36:04 -0700

It seems that Cook has been working on Naughty sorcerers from the past fo=
r a
long time... After reading the Swordbearer, I can see the evolution from =
the
undead evil warlord types in that book to the Ten Who Were Taken... and a=
ny
writer using such a device, whether it's Jordan, Cook or anyone else, has=
 to
nod somewhat to Tolkien...  You gotta admit, the Nazgul were pretty fierc=
e,
and thoroughly evil... Although the Taken are farther evolved from the
Nazgul template than his previous attempts...

John

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Brooke A.
Wheeler
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 6:01 PM




Wright Frazier wrote:
>
> Cook does it better.  I like jordan, but the book where half of the 500
> pages were of Braid Tugger (nynaeve) and Sniffer (Elayne) were on a dam=
n

HALF? Hmmm... not quite... At any rate, I suspect that--sooner rather tha=
n
later-- those two will suffer for their bad attitudes. Jordan is very goo=
d
at
demonstrating how a twisted worldview eventually ends up wrecking your li=
fe.
After all, look what happened to Eliada and Galina (and, by extension, th=
e
entire Red Ajah): it took Jordan two books or so but it's plain now that
nasty
people like that don't escape the consequences forever. The situation
Galina's
in is especially satisfying, because she so richly deserves it.

> wagon just disgusted me.  It marked a HUGE down turn in his writing, he=
's
to
> concerned with the trivial stuff.
<<Cute nicknames, BTW>>

IMNSHO, both are excellent writers, you just have to appreciate their
differing
styles. I can read one of Cook's books in a couple of days. A Jordan book
takes
me a week or so. I will say that--at least so far--Cook obviously has his
whole
world very carefully planned in advance. As for Jordan, I can't say becau=
se
I
don't have the whole series. Once he's finished, it will be easier to see
how
carefully he planned it beforehand and how tightly all the threads mesh
together
into the whole.

> I MUCH prefer Cook's approach.  The villans are much more villaneous.
These
> are dispiciable people, and their nastiness is enhanced by the less tha=
n
> thorough reporting of them.  The Taken are mysterious and vile and utte=
rly
> evil.  The Forsaken are just naughty with no mystery too'em.

Uh, so I suppose you consider it merely "naughty" when Lanfear rips
someone's
skin off their body in one piece, or what Greandal does to people to turn
them
into her personal slaves? Compare a few of these things to the stuff the
Limper
does in _Silver_Spike_ or how Several of the taken betray the Hanged Man =
on
the
stair of Tear and you have to admit there's not much difference.
Just my 2=A2
[....]

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jordan Raney" <jrraney@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL:spoilers don't read unless you are finished
Date: 11 Aug 2000 01:58:39 -0500

Woa, I don't remember that at all...I'm way off.  I guess I better read it
more carefully next time through and quit trying to break a speed record....


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2000 10:13 PM


> On Thu, 10 Aug 2000, Jordan Raney wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Croaker switched places with shivetya (the guardian)...but I don't think
> > anything was physically changed.  So I'm pretty sure croaker is stuck
inside
> > the guardian who is still stuck to the throne with the daggers.
> >
> P. 495, 4th parag. One of the Voroshk girls speaking.
>   ``I don't think...Shit.  Look.  Those knives are all gone from the
>   demon.''  Actually, they were laying all over the floor.
>
>   ==Jake
>
> >
> > >
> > > SPOILER
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hey eric was it mentioned wether or not Croaker/Guardian has the
daggers
> > > placed through and around his body. And if he didn't couldn't just
walk
> > off
> > > the plain, leave the rest to the nef and joing the BC physically. If
he
> > had
> > > the power of shiveta couldn't like shapeshift or something into his
old
> > > appearance and size and continue the journey with the BC.
> > >
> > > Well its something to think about but im probably full of it and he
> > probably
> > > couldn't even fit through the gate.
> > >
> > >
> > > one more thing, what exactly was the meaning of the Noose, that
supposed
> > to
> > > be special constellation
>
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From: WinB@aol.com
Subject: (glencook-fans) Book order
Date: 11 Aug 2000 09:35:20 EDT

Okay...all this talk of North v. South has gave me the bug again, so I stopped reading Swords in Lankhmar and started BC again.

What order does everyone take? Silver Spike then Dreams or vice versa?

Win

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From: "Croaker" <croaker@one-ring.net>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Silver Spike -- Is it a Must?
Date: 11 Aug 2000 09:12:39 -0500

Ok I know ... Shame on me for even asking this question but somewhere back
along my readings of the Company I decided that Silver Spike wasn't a must
read as I was anxious to get back to the Adventures of the Company as a
whole. Although I have read through the series on a few occasions I just
keep skipping over it. I do intend to read it but with Soilders Live sitting
on my Table I have one issue. Do I read it before or after the newest book.

My question to the list is this .... Are there any details in Soilders Live
that are reliant upon any of the goings on in the Silver Spike? Obviously as
I haven't read the latest book and I would prefer an answer without
spoilers.
TIA for any guidance....



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From: Matthew Roche <rocheml@cerebusnm.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Silver Spike -- Is it a Must? and Book Order
Date: 11 Aug 2000 08:40:12 -0600

i've always found that reading the silver spike before reading dreams of
steel is a good way to go. not only does it remind me that cook kicks ass
when writing stand alone novels (which i think this is, although it concerns
well-loved characters and scenarios) but it also enhances my enjoyment of
dreams of steel, as i can then look back knowingly on the conflagration
behind the southbound company.

but then of course, i liked reading the dread empire trilogy before the
prequels...

;-]

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 10:13 AM


Ok I know ... Shame on me for even asking this question but somewhere back
along my readings of the Company I decided that Silver Spike wasn't a must
read as I was anxious to get back to the Adventures of the Company as a
whole. Although I have read through the series on a few occasions I just
keep skipping over it. I do intend to read it but with Soilders Live sitting
on my Table I have one issue. Do I read it before or after the newest book.

My question to the list is this .... Are there any details in Soilders Live
that are reliant upon any of the goings on in the Silver Spike? Obviously as
I haven't read the latest book and I would prefer an answer without
spoilers.
TIA for any guidance....



=======================================================================
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From: "Vonder Haar, Peter C." <Peter.VonderHaar@bakerhughes.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Silver Spike -- Is it a Must?
Date: 11 Aug 2000 09:48:09 -0500

 In my opinion, reading _Silver Spike_ is not a prerequisite for enjoying
_Soldiers Live_.  This should be pretty obvious, since you've apparently
made it all the way through the rest of the Books of the South and
Glittering Stone without a problem.
 However, I think you owe it to yourself to go back and check it out.  You
could do like I did, which is reread _Shadow Games_ and then read _SS_,
since the two books have a bit of overlap in continuity.  And if you haven't
read it, you'll never know what happens to the Company members who split
after _The White Rose_.
 On a side note, I have recently exposed (is that the right word?) a
co-worker of mine to the Black Company.  He read the first two in three days
and has been salivating after _The White Rose_, which we're having a mother
of a time trying to find (it's the only one I don't have a copy of).  I have
the other seven books on a stack on my desk, and he's gotten so desperate to
keep going he asked me if he could just skip _TWR_ and move on.  I told him
that would probably be unwise, to put it mildly.

 Pete

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 9:13 AM


Ok I know ... Shame on me for even asking this question but somewhere back
along my readings of the Company I decided that Silver Spike wasn't a must
read as I was anxious to get back to the Adventures of the Company as a
whole. Although I have read through the series on a few occasions I just
keep skipping over it. I do intend to read it but with Soilders Live sitting
on my Table I have one issue. Do I read it before or after the newest book.

My question to the list is this .... Are there any details in Soilders Live
that are reliant upon any of the goings on in the Silver Spike? Obviously as
I haven't read the latest book and I would prefer an answer without
spoilers.
TIA for any guidance....



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From: Richard Chilton <rchilton@auracom.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Silver Spike -- Is it a Must?
Date: 11 Aug 2000 12:24:29 -0300

Croaker wrote:
> 
> My question to the list is this .... Are there any details in Soilders Live
> that are reliant upon any of the goings on in the Silver Spike? Obviously as
> I haven't read the latest book and I would prefer an answer without
> spoilers.
> TIA for any guidance....
> 

I have not read the Soldiers Live yet, but I truely doubt it will be
affected by the Silver Spike.  The first book of the south - that is
intertwined with the Silver Spike (they happen at the same time and
there is some interaction between the two books).  Reading the Silver
Spike will answer a few of the mysteries of the first book of the
south...

But as I said, I haven't read the new book yet.  If I am wrong in this
then Solders Live contains a lot of things I don't expect.

Richard

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From: Richard Chilton <rchilton@auracom.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Book order
Date: 11 Aug 2000 12:24:22 -0300

WinB@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Okay...all this talk of North v. South has gave me the bug again, so I stopped reading Swords in Lankhmar and started BC again.
> 
> What order does everyone take? Silver Spike then Dreams or vice versa?
> 

The first time through I did Dreams then Spike - that was the order they
reach my local bookstore.  Last time through I read Spike then Dreams. 
It may just be because of that first time, but I found Dreams than Spike
to be the better order.

Richard

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From: Jeff Wragg <wraggj@cofc.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Silver Spike -- Is it a Must?
Date: 11 Aug 2000 11:49:31 -0400

I read Silver Spike first, then said "hey, this stuff is great" and 
went out and bought all the Cook stuff I could find.  After reading 
all the BC stuff I went back and re-read SS and got more out of it.

Having said that, I don't think it is a "must" but why deprive yourself?

jeff

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From: "JM Rhodes" <jammers@netzero.net>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Silver Spike -- Is it a Must?
Date: 11 Aug 2000 09:14:15 -0700

Silver Spike is one of my favorites, for a number of reasons.  I thought it
was well-written, and it ties up so many storylines from the White Rose I
certainly wouldn't classify it as "skippable" in the BC series.  Add to that
that it is the first time Cook writes from the perspective of someone other
than Croaker (assuming that Shadow Games is Croaker's reconstruction of
events after-the-fact), and Case is a particularly likable character.

John

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Jeff Wragg
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 8:50 AM


I read Silver Spike first, then said "hey, this stuff is great" and
went out and bought all the Cook stuff I could find.  After reading
all the BC stuff I went back and re-read SS and got more out of it.

Having said that, I don't think it is a "must" but why deprive yourself?

jeff

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From: "Jordan Raney" <jrraney@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Book order
Date: 11 Aug 2000 11:34:31 -0500

I always read spike either before shadow games (after white rose) or right
after shadow games (before dream).


> Okay...all this talk of North v. South has gave me the bug again, so I
stopped reading Swords in Lankhmar and started BC again.
>
> What order does everyone take? Silver Spike then Dreams or vice versa?
>
> Win
>
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From: "Lich" <lich@mtco.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) alternative series
Date: 12 Aug 2000 04:15:35 -0500

Waylander, In the Realm of the Wolf, The King Beyond the Gate, and The Quest
for Lost Heroes are all on par or nearly so with Legend.  There are a couple
others that aren't quite as good, but still better than most of what's out
there.


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 8:58 PM


> I finished David Gemmel's Legend awhile ago, and I was wondering if the
> other books in the series are as good?  if so, which ones should i try
next?
>   sorry im off topic, but i have to find something else to read now that
i'm
> done with soldiers live!  thanks!
>
> Mike Kimball
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
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>



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From: "C.L. Yona" <junkboy@cyberwhirled.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: Taken & Forsaken (no spoilers)
Date: 11 Aug 2000 18:42:29 -0400

Jordan seems to be unable to write a feamle character without some sort of giant flaw.  Thumb through the characters
in your mind, and maybe you'll agree with me.  Maybe not.  In either case, that series became unreadable to me after
about the 5th book or so (or whichever one he wrote which completely ignored Perrin for the whole thing).  Cook
gives his female chacters much more believable traits and you don't want to necessarily take the lot of them out and
administer numerous behind kicks.

Okay, maybe you want to kick some of them.  But that's okay.

yer dog

Jamison Wood wrote:

> Wright Frazier wrote:
> > Cook does it better.  I like jordan, but the book where half of the 500
> > pages were of Braid Tugger (nynaeve) and Sniffer (Elayne) were on a damn
> > wagon just disgusted me.  It marked a HUGE down turn in his writing, >he's to concerned with the trivial stuff.
>
> ROFL!
> I agree 100%, Jordan's idea of developing a character is to give them
> one trait, and then have them repeat it thousands of times.
>
> Cook does a much better job of developing characters, look at Goblin and
> One-eye, silent, croaker, lady, soulcatcher, almost every character that
> is vital to the story, Cook gives them personality, and in most
> characters we are given a tidbit or two of their history and what made
> them who they are.  After reading the books I care about Cook's
> characters.
>
> I'm personally rooting for the Forsaken, I would love to read wholesale
> slaughter of the main characters in WOT.
>
> =======================================================================
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From: "Wright Frazier" <khelek@cioe.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: Taken & Forsaken (no spoilers)
Date: 11 Aug 2000 17:37:34 -0500

That is a big peeve with me as well about Jordan...there is only one female
character who isn't a walking characature of a given female flaw, and that
is Moiraine.

Wright



----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 5:42 PM


> Jordan seems to be unable to write a feamle character without some sort of
giant flaw.  Thumb through the characters
> in your mind, and maybe you'll agree with me.  Maybe not.  In either case,
that series became unreadable to me after
> about the 5th book or so (or whichever one he wrote which completely
ignored Perrin for the whole thing).  Cook
> gives his female chacters much more believable traits and you don't want
to necessarily take the lot of them out and
> administer numerous behind kicks.
>
> Okay, maybe you want to kick some of them.  But that's okay.
>
> yer dog
>
> Jamison Wood wrote:
>
> > Wright Frazier wrote:
> > > Cook does it better.  I like jordan, but the book where half of the
500
> > > pages were of Braid Tugger (nynaeve) and Sniffer (Elayne) were on a
damn
> > > wagon just disgusted me.  It marked a HUGE down turn in his writing,
>he's to concerned with the trivial stuff.
> >
> > ROFL!
> > I agree 100%, Jordan's idea of developing a character is to give them
> > one trait, and then have them repeat it thousands of times.
> >
> > Cook does a much better job of developing characters, look at Goblin and
> > One-eye, silent, croaker, lady, soulcatcher, almost every character that
> > is vital to the story, Cook gives them personality, and in most
> > characters we are given a tidbit or two of their history and what made
> > them who they are.  After reading the books I care about Cook's
> > characters.
> >
> > I'm personally rooting for the Forsaken, I would love to read wholesale
> > slaughter of the main characters in WOT.
> >
> > =======================================================================
> >  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> >  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
>
> =======================================================================
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>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>



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From: Steve Harris <harrissg@SLU.EDU>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: Taken & Forsaken (no spoilers)
Date: 11 Aug 2000 19:50:48 -0500

Wright,

I rather like Egwene.  She develops quite a bit in the later books.

But, yes, not a candle to Lady.

Steve

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From: Eric Herrmann <shpshftr@xmission.com>
Subject: (glencook-fans) The Glen Cook Fan Page v2.0 GM
Date: 12 Aug 2000 00:46:58 -0600

The Glen Cook Fan Page v2.0 has gone final! Thank you to everyone who sent
me comments and criticism. I tried to use most of it.

You can now find the new site in the place of the old site. So delete all
your links to the new site and start using your old site links again.

And in case you've forgotten it is at,
<http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/>.

For those who are new to the list, there has been a lot of new material
added as part of the Biography, Bibliography, and Links.

And now you have the option to get the glencook-fans mailing list as a
digest. See the site for details.

-- 
Eric Herrmann
<shpshftr@xmission.com>






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From: "Lich" <lich@mtco.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) The Glen Cook Fan Page v2.0 GM
Date: 12 Aug 2000 20:39:07 -0500

Getting a not found error.  You might want to check your files.


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2000 1:46 AM


> The Glen Cook Fan Page v2.0 has gone final! Thank you to everyone who sent
> me comments and criticism. I tried to use most of it.
>
> You can now find the new site in the place of the old site. So delete all
> your links to the new site and start using your old site links again.
>
> And in case you've forgotten it is at,
> <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/>.
>
> For those who are new to the list, there has been a lot of new material
> added as part of the Biography, Bibliography, and Links.
>
> And now you have the option to get the glencook-fans mailing list as a
> digest. See the site for details.
>
> --
> Eric Herrmann
> <shpshftr@xmission.com>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Eric Herrmann <shpshftr@xmission.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) The Glen Cook Fan Page v2.0 GM
Date: 12 Aug 2000 09:16:05 -0600

on 8/12/00 7:39 PM, Lich at lich@mtco.com wrote:
>> And in case you've forgotten it is at,
>> <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/>.
>
> Getting a not found error.  You might want to check your files.

I can't reproduce this. I'm on vacation using the hotel's net connection so
my experience shouldn't be any different than yours.

Are you sure you're looking at the GC directory and not the GC2 directory?
The GC2 directory doesn't exist anymore and you would get a not found error.

Anyone else having a problem?

Eric Herrmann
<shpshftr@xmission.com>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Christopher C. Holden" <holdencc@SLU.EDU>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) The Glen Cook Fan Page v2.0 GM
Date: 12 Aug 2000 10:25:09 -0500


> >> <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/>.

You just need to drop the ">" at the end of the URL to get it to work.

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From: Michael Scholl <mdscholl@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) North vs. South        !!  (SL Spoilers)
Date: 12 Aug 2000 12:56:13 -0700 (PDT)


--- "OBRIEN,LEE (HP-Boise,ex1)" <lee_obrien@hp.com>
wrote:
>  I think it might be cool if Cook would release a 
> book of short stories based on Croaker's (new and
> improved, Shivetya enhanced) memories of the
> histories of the different worlds.  Ahh... I guess 
>I could go on for a while, but ....
> 

Excellent suggestion!!

Croaker as Annalist, but with others as protagonists!



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From: "Don" <dfgarcia@stic.net>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Silver spike, North vs South SL SPOILERS!!!
Date: 03 Aug 2000 08:18:06 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_00E7_01BFFD23.59BFFBE0
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

POSSIBLE SPOILERS FOR SL












Silver Spike was on of the high points of the series for me. It is not =
required for the rest of the series but highly recommended for good =
Cook.

North vs. South- The north was easier to digest than the south for a =
number of reasons. As someone said the N was western Sorcery. Most of us =
have a good foundation of understanding in not only the attitudes but =
the politics of the N. S was definitely more Eastern in the populace's =
philosophy. The Polytheism, the view of the Westerners as outsiders who =
are not to be trusted/ let in on the secrets of your culture/religion.=20
I loved the Eastern influence in Dread Empire. I wanted to hear more =
about it. That's the main reason for my frustration at the series being =
discontinued. I feel that the Eastern influence in BC fell short. The =
Taglians are not religious except when the priests were there to enforce =
it. There is no great strength in there religion as a motivator for the =
people. Their gods don't care what happens to them. Kina gets a kick out =
of seeing her worshipers get the dirt nap. The Nyu Buano (SP) could have =
been really good but Cook never went far enough  into their culture. =
They never truly befriended the Company so we could never really root or =
them. The path of the sword could have been as interesting as the =
Trevola from DE but was never developed.=20
The main failing I see in the South is the lack of Characterization of =
the key individuals. I think this can be attributed to many of the =
topics others on the list have mentioned. 1 the switch from unit to =
whole force maneuvers. 2 the amount of plot and detail that was covered =
just didn't leave space to flesh characters out properly (especially in =
SL). 3 I feel that the ending was rushed. Every had to die and get =
wrapped up quickly because the series had gone on so long. The =
characters were just too flat. They died that way as well...flat.

Of course this is all my opinion.=20

Don=20
"In time, what's deserved always gets served."- COC



P.S. Guys, most of us don't care about the Wheel of Time. I will now =
never read any of those books because of the space they have taken on =
this list.


------=_NextPart_000_00E7_01BFFD23.59BFFBE0
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>POSSIBLE SPOILERS FOR SL</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Silver Spike was on of the high points =
of the=20
series for me. It is not required for the rest of the series but highly=20
recommended for good Cook.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>North vs. South- The north was easier =
to digest=20
than the south for a number of reasons. As someone said the&nbsp;N was =
western=20
Sorcery. Most of us have a good foundation of understanding in not only =
the=20
attitudes but the politics of the N. S was definitely more Eastern in =
the=20
populace's philosophy. The Polytheism, the view of the Westerners as =
outsiders=20
who are not to be trusted/ let in on the secrets of your =
culture/religion.=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I loved the Eastern influence in Dread =
Empire. I=20
wanted to hear more about it. That's the main reason for my frustration =
at the=20
series being discontinued. I feel that the Eastern influence in BC fell =
short.=20
The Taglians are not religious except when the priests were there to =
enforce it.=20
There is no great strength in there religion as a motivator for the =
people.=20
Their gods don't care what happens to them. Kina gets a kick out of =
seeing her=20
worshipers get the dirt nap. The Nyu Buano (SP) could have been really =
good but=20
Cook never went far enough&nbsp; into their culture. They never truly =
befriended=20
the Company so we could never really root or them. The path of the sword =
could=20
have been as interesting as the Trevola from DE but was never developed. =

</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The main failing I see in the South is =
the lack of=20
Characterization of the key individuals. I think this can be attributed =
to many=20
of the topics others on the list have mentioned. 1 the switch from unit =
to whole=20
force maneuvers. 2 the amount of plot and detail that was covered just =
didn't=20
leave space to flesh characters out properly (especially in SL). 3 I =
feel that=20
the ending was rushed. Every had to die and get wrapped up quickly =
because the=20
series had gone on so long. The characters were just too flat. They died =
that=20
way as well...flat.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Of course this is all my opinion. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><BR>Don <BR>"In time, what's deserved =
always gets=20
served."- COC</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>P.S. Guys, most of us don't care about =
the Wheel of=20
Time. I will now never read any of those books because of the space they =
have=20
taken on this list.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_00E7_01BFFD23.59BFFBE0--


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From: "Holy Paladin" <blackcompany999@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) North vs. South !! (SL Spoilers)
Date: 12 Aug 2000 16:15:52 EDT



While were on the topic The North vs The South. Who do u all think made 
better allies Tobo's unseen Folk or the Creatures of the Plain of Fear. To 
me its a hard choosing.


Another thought.....
Does it occur to any1 that nobody evn croaker didn't attempt to retreive the 
Lance of Passion. Yes i know that would be nearly impossible but i would 
think Croaker would at least try.

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From: "Jordan Raney" <jrraney@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Silver spike, North vs South SL SPOILERS!!!
Date: 12 Aug 2000 15:13:59 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C0046F.F106A780
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Don wrote:

"I loved the Eastern influence in Dread Empire. I wanted to hear more =
about it. That's the main reason for my frustration at the series being =
discontinued. I feel that the Eastern influence in BC fell short. The =
Taglians are not religious except when the priests were there to enforce =
it. There is no great strength in there religion as a motivator for the =
people. Their gods don't care what happens to them. Kina gets a kick out =
of seeing her worshipers get the dirt nap."

I think the reason the "gods don't care" is because Cook wants to make =
it look like they don't exist and that people are just weak for =
believing in them.  Throughout the Black Company series Croaker (who is =
basically Cook's personal character) repeatedly talks about how anyone =
powerful enough can be thought of as a god hundreds or thousands of =
years later, after the distortion of history.  I think that's why Cook =
nearly all religious characters in his books look like irrational fools. =
 I haven't read Dread Empire yet, so I can't comment on that.

JR

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C0046F.F106A780
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Don wrote:</FONT></DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>
<DIV><BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"I loved the Eastern influence in =
Dread Empire.=20
I wanted to hear more about it. That's the main reason for my =
frustration at the=20
series being discontinued. I feel that the Eastern influence in BC fell =
short.=20
The Taglians are not religious except when the priests were there to =
enforce it.=20
There is no great strength in there religion as a motivator for the =
people.=20
Their gods don't care what happens to them. Kina gets a kick out of =
seeing her=20
worshipers get the dirt nap."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I think the reason the "gods don't care" is because =
Cook wants=20
to make it look like they don't exist and that people are just weak for=20
believing in them.&nbsp; Throughout the Black Company series Croaker =
(who is=20
basically Cook's personal character) repeatedly talks about how anyone =
powerful=20
enough can be thought of as a god hundreds or thousands of years later, =
after=20
the distortion of history.&nbsp; I think that's why Cook nearly all =
religious=20
characters in his books look like irrational fools.&nbsp; I haven't read =
Dread=20
Empire yet, so I can't comment on that.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>JR</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Nick Chase" <chase_nick@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Silver Spike -- Is it a Must?
Date: 12 Aug 2000 23:46:01 GMT

I appear to be in the minority again. Silver Spike is my least favorite 
Black Company book. Not because it's badly written (it's not) but because 
it's completely unnecessary. It ties up things better left to the 
imagination and unties things that were resolved quite well in The White 
Rose. The White Rose is my favorite of the Black Company books, and has one 
of the most satisfying bittersweet endings ever, so for me the Silver Spike 
just spoiled a perfect thing. I'd rather not know what happens to the 
Limper, I'd rather not know if Toadkiller Dog ever gets what he's looking 
for, I'd rather not know who Darling eventually ends up with, or the 
ultimate fate of Raven's family, or any of the other things left in the air. 
It's better to be able to wonder about them, to think, "yeah, years from now 
there'll be a legend about the evil dog in the woods, and the story will go 
on, only with different characters and different names..." Instead, 
everything is dug back up and then resettled once and for all and this time 
there's no mystery left. Ugh. There's some good writing in the book - Case 
is an interesting narrator - but there's a lot of dumb or unnecessary stuff 
as well. Raven went from tragically flawed (interesting) to pathetic buffoon 
(not interesting), and there were a number of people doing stupid, 
out-of-character things (if Old Father Tree could SPOILER, why didn't he do 
that in TWR?) Better to leave well enough alone.

As for the Books of the South, I don't like them as much as the first three, 
but there is some good stuff in them. Lady as narrator was cool. I know 
people thought it was unnecessary and confusing, but I liked the Billy 
Pilgrim riff in Bleak Seasons a lot (my only complaint was that the ending 
should have been even darker, and I felt a little cheated when it was later 
at least partially undone). Blade rocked, would have liked to see a lot more 
of him. Seeing a different culture was nice - Shinsan is one of the best 
things about the Dread Empire books - but I would have preferred something 
more alien, not so recognizably Hindu, Vietnamese, etc. The correlation 
between say, Forsberg and Germany or the Jewel Cities and Italy is a lot 
less direct. I thought the bad guys were pretty lame - Longshadow in 
particular - with the exception of Narayan Singh, Mogaba, and maybe Kina. 
And I would have preferred the dead Taken to stay dead: this version of 
Soulcatcher wasn't as appealing as the original. The writing was more 
sophisticated, but it also felt looser and less focused and the characters 
weren't as strong overall (as other people have mentioned).
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From: CookReader@aol.com
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) North vs. South !! (SL Spoilers)
Date: 12 Aug 2000 22:25:07 EDT


In a message dated 8/12/00 3:16:36 PM, blackcompany999@hotmail.com writes:

>While were on the topic The North vs The South. Who do u all think made
>better allies Tobo's unseen Folk or the Creatures of the Plain of Fear.
>To me its a hard choosing.

On the death scale it's got to go to the Plains creatures. The windwhales 
alone
killed more. Add in the plain itself, the Tree god, and the other creatures 
and
hand down the plains' folk got it. Besides, the plain had an infinite amount 
of
creatures, and a lot more to start with.

The shadows didn't seem very scary.

"Oooohhhh, it's the size of a house!"
"Yeah, but it's a duck."
"A duck the size of a house."
"Yes, but a duck all the same, and when was the last time you were scared by
a duck?"

Lightning throwing birds, vanishing Menhirs, exploding wind whales sucking up
people with venomous tenticles, poisionous corals, slumbering gods under
near all-powerful trees. Got to give it to the plain.

christopher....

p.s. Eric, can't get the pages up.


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From: CookReader@aol.com
Subject: (glencook-fans) Enough on Jordan!
Date: 12 Aug 2000 23:16:37 EDT


In a message dated 8/11/00 5:39:11 PM, khelek@cioe.com writes:

>That is a big peeve with me as well about Jordan...there is only one female
>character who isn't a walking characature of a given female flaw, and that
>is Moiraine.
>
>Wright

My biggest pet peeve with Jordan is how he can manage to come up on
a list that should have nothing to do with him. At best Cook is mentioned
barely in passing. No analysis between authors or specific characters,
and no, I don't think, Egwene "not [holding] a candle to Lady," counts
as any kind of contribution to the charter of this list.

Come on, it would be one thing if people had exhausted the topics
of discussion on the majority of Cook's books, but damn, he just
had a brand new one. Are we already tired of this book?

Robin Hobb has a brand new one, so does Spider Robinson, and Deborah
Christian, and Susan R. Mathews. Anyone read any of these? Are they
as good as Jordan? Let's go! Eric, change the listname, we're off and
running. Wanna speculate on Brust's new one? Only six months to go
before this one is out. Who cares about this Cook guy?
(Okay, I'm done with the sarcasm).

This is why I objected to bringing up other authors based solely on the
fact that we happen to agree that we all like ONE writer in common.
Read through this thread, seems like a poorly disguised effort to discuss
someone other than who the list is dedicated to. Read through for the
Cook content, and you'll see there is little. And what little there is is
impossible to understand for those of us who have not read the Phone
Books of Infinity. And what little was understandable was totally unsupported.

The are other listserves dedicated to Jordan, at least one newsgroup,
and many other groups where he's more than welcome. Take it there.

Please.

christopher....

In a message dated 8/11/00 7:54:07 PM, harrissg@SLU.EDU writes:

>Wright,
>
>I rather like Egwene.  She develops quite a bit in the later books.
>
>But, yes, not a candle to Lady.
>
>Steve


In a message dated 8/11/00 5:31:34 PM, junkboy@cyberwhirled.com writes:

>Jordan seems to be unable to write a feamle character without some sort
>of giant flaw.  Thumb through the characters
>in your mind, and maybe you'll agree with me.  Maybe not.  In either case,
>that series became unreadable to me after
>about the 5th book or so (or whichever one he wrote which completely ignored
>Perrin for the whole thing).  Cook
>gives his female chacters much more believable traits and you don't want
>to necessarily take the lot of them out and
>administer numerous behind kicks.
>
>Okay, maybe you want to kick some of them.  But that's okay.
>
>yer dog


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From: "Glenn Hoetker" <ghoetker@umich.edu>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Favorite BC book
Date: 13 Aug 2000 10:25:35 -0400

Having just finished SL (much to the detriment of my dissertation!), I was
curious what _single_ BC book was people's favorite and why--now that it
appears Glen has given us the whole set.  Anyone have an opinion they'd be
willing to share (good bet in this group!)?

For myself, I still the think the book that hooked me on the whole thing,
The Black Company, is the winner.  I like that the villians (and heroes!)
are still villianous and mysterious--Raven is still a bad-a**, Lady is
humanizing but not yet humanized, Soulcatcher is still somewhat distant,
Limper still sane enough to be a threat and the Dominator a scary beast in
the ground.  Even more peripheral characters, like Harding and Whisper, have
a hardness and resiliance I didn't find as consistently in the subsequent
books.  Since the Company is still together, the narrative is coherent and
continuous, which I like (personal taste).  Less feeling of the Company as a
pawn of greater celestial powers.  And, much as I respect Cook for letting
his characters age, decay and even die, several of my favorite characters
(One-Eye and Goblin, mainly) are more fun when they are still spry.

That said, I love the all, even Silver Spike.

Others?
-----
Glenn Hoetker
ghoetker@umich.edu
PhD Candidate, International Business &
Corporate Strategy
University of Michigan Business School


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From: Steve Harris <harrissg@SLU.EDU>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Enough on Jordan!
Date: 13 Aug 2000 11:40:20 -0600

CookReader,

If you'll recall, I brought up Jordan as a source of comparison for a
group of sorcerous baddies.  I think there was some good exchange on
that score, in terms of character development and strength of
do-unto-others.  

In particular, the comparison of how many does it take of the heros'
side, to be comparable to one of the villains, makes for a strong point
of comparison and shows reason for the difference in structure of the
two cycles (which otherwise have surface similarities).  It's the
difference between one lone hero against the bad guy, on the one hand;
and the need for unified action, with clever unit tactics and long-term
strategies of deception, on the other.  I think the latter aspect is not
so immediately apparent as the source of Cook's uniquness, until
comparison is made with other cycles.  (Easy to say, "Of course it's
there!"--once it's pointed out.)

Indeed, one can see, by dint of such comparisons, that a major
difference in Cook's cycle is his emphasis on the *company* as the
central protagonist.  Not entirely, of course--Croaker is a recurring
figure, and Lady becomes one; but it's a strangely diffuse sort of
focus, over the span of 9 books.  While other cycles have as the central
moral motif, the development of the protagonist--generally from naive to
sophisticated, whether for ill or for good--Cook's cycle has the company
develop from naive mercenary to save-the-world-mission, without even
keeping the same people in the company (save for a very small number).

But it's only by comparison that this becomes evident as a central
difference.

Steve

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From: "David George" <dsgeorge@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Favorite BC book
Date: 13 Aug 2000 12:47:20 -0500

Tough question.  There are scenes and passages that really stand out all
through the books.  Raker, of course.  The opening of Shadows Linger, in the
Inn, great small unit ops stuff.  Lady's campaign after the fall of Croaker.
The Kiaulune Campaign was good, too, in my opinion, a chance to watch
Croaker in a different role and from a different viewpoint.  I think my
favorite single novel is still Black Company (for Croaker and Co. less than
Raven, who is not really my favorite), but Bleak Seasons and Water Sleeps
are close.

To be fair, it is tough to break up Glittering Stone.  It really reads like
a big-ass doorstop of a book that had to be broken into four volumes, which
is more or less what I've heard was the case.

DG

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2000 9:25 AM


> Having just finished SL (much to the detriment of my dissertation!), I was
> curious what _single_ BC book was people's favorite and why--now that it
> appears Glen has given us the whole set.  Anyone have an opinion they'd be
> willing to share (good bet in this group!)?
>
> For myself, I still the think the book that hooked me on the whole thing,
> The Black Company, is the winner.  I like that the villians (and heroes!)
> are still villianous and mysterious--Raven is still a bad-a**, Lady is
> humanizing but not yet humanized, Soulcatcher is still somewhat distant,
> Limper still sane enough to be a threat and the Dominator a scary beast in
> the ground.  Even more peripheral characters, like Harding and Whisper,
have
> a hardness and resiliance I didn't find as consistently in the subsequent
> books.  Since the Company is still together, the narrative is coherent and
> continuous, which I like (personal taste).  Less feeling of the Company as
a
> pawn of greater celestial powers.  And, much as I respect Cook for letting
> his characters age, decay and even die, several of my favorite characters
> (One-Eye and Goblin, mainly) are more fun when they are still spry.
>
> That said, I love the all, even Silver Spike.
>
> Others?
> -----
> Glenn Hoetker
> ghoetker@umich.edu
> PhD Candidate, International Business &
> Corporate Strategy
> University of Michigan Business School
>
>
> =======================================================================
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>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.


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From: "JM Rhodes" <jammers@netzero.net>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Favorite BC book
Date: 13 Aug 2000 14:40:41 -0700

Mine would be in this order:

Shadow Games (just liked the characters, and the dramatics of this one...
stands out for me)
The Silver Spike (I've said it before... good book, gets a bad rap
sometimes, but added a lot to the series for me)
Black Company (The original, and the one that introduced me to Cook. I still
get shivers when I read "In those days, the company was in the service of"))
Water Sleeps (just for Sleepy... )
Bleak Seasons ( I liked Slaughterhouse 5, too... go figure)
all the rest (I can't think of one I didn't enjoy....)

John

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Glenn
Hoetker
Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2000 7:26 AM


Having just finished SL (much to the detriment of my dissertation!), I was
curious what _single_ BC book was people's favorite and why--now that it
appears Glen has given us the whole set.  Anyone have an opinion they'd be
willing to share (good bet in this group!)?

For myself, I still the think the book that hooked me on the whole thing,
The Black Company, is the winner.  I like that the villians (and heroes!)
are still villianous and mysterious--Raven is still a bad-a**, Lady is
humanizing but not yet humanized, Soulcatcher is still somewhat distant,
Limper still sane enough to be a threat and the Dominator a scary beast in
the ground.  Even more peripheral characters, like Harding and Whisper, have
a hardness and resiliance I didn't find as consistently in the subsequent
books.  Since the Company is still together, the narrative is coherent and
continuous, which I like (personal taste).  Less feeling of the Company as a
pawn of greater celestial powers.  And, much as I respect Cook for letting
his characters age, decay and even die, several of my favorite characters
(One-Eye and Goblin, mainly) are more fun when they are still spry.

That said, I love the all, even Silver Spike.

Others?
-----
Glenn Hoetker
ghoetker@umich.edu
PhD Candidate, International Business &
Corporate Strategy
University of Michigan Business School


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From: Eric Herrmann <shpshftr@xmission.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Enough on Jordan!
Date: 13 Aug 2000 22:41:54 -0600

on 8/13/00 11:40 AM, Steve Harris at harrissg@SLU.EDU wrote:
> If you'll recall, I brought up Jordan as a source of comparison for a
> group of sorcerous baddies.  I think there was some good exchange on
> that score, in terms of character development and strength of
> do-unto-others.

Comparisons are allowed on the list as long as they don't devolve into a
sole discussion of the other author or flame baiting. And given Jordan's
popularity, it is difficult to avoid using him for comparison.

The comparisons of the Forsaken, Nazguls and Taken has been good so far.

I understand Christopher's posts and it is a valid warning, though it may be
a bit overstated. There is a very good reason why rec.arts.sf.written.jordan
exists.

-- 
Eric Herrmann
<shpshftr@xmission.com>



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From: CookReader@aol.com
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Enough on Jordan!
Date: 14 Aug 2000 03:56:12 EDT


In a message dated 8/13/00 11:43:01 PM, shpshftr@xmission.com writes:

>on 8/13/00 11:40 AM, Steve Harris at harrissg@SLU.EDU wrote:
>> If you'll recall, I brought up Jordan as a source of comparison for a
>> group of sorcerous baddies.  I think there was some good exchange on
>> that score, in terms of character development and strength of
>> do-unto-others.

Except as soon as an author, other than Cook, is mentioned the discussion
denigrates into a thread that is of little substance. And I don't think this
is just a subjective observation on my part. It's not hard to go back over
the threads and see this trend.

>Comparisons are allowed on the list as long as they don't devolve into
>a sole discussion of the other author or flame baiting. And given Jordan's
>popularity, it is difficult to avoid using him for comparison.

And one could say that just mentioning him is flame baiting to a degree,
just like mentioning Anthony on rec.arts.sf.written. You can take whatever
stance you like on either of these authors and a thousand people will
line up to disagree with you. I say this isn't the forum.

>The comparisons of the Forsaken, Nazguls and Taken has been good so far.

It started this way, but too many posters were making the assumption that
people have read all three authors. There was some content pointing to how
each author delt with evil character, but this didn't last. Again, the 
thread's
there.

>I understand Christopher's posts and it is a valid warning, though it may
>be a bit overstated. There is a very good reason why 
rec.arts.sf.written.jordan
>exists.

Overstated? Me? Never.

I may be over-reacting, but just call it dissapointment that with a fresh GC 
book
out, we're discussing...Jordan?

christopher....


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From: Aaron Contreras <Aaron.Contreras@sierra.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) The Glen Cook Fan Page v2.0 GM
Date: 14 Aug 2000 08:13:25 -0700

Woohoo!

Nice stuff!  Like the bibliography.

Aaron Contreras

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2000 11:47 PM


The Glen Cook Fan Page v2.0 has gone final! Thank you to everyone who sent
me comments and criticism. I tried to use most of it.

You can now find the new site in the place of the old site. So delete all
your links to the new site and start using your old site links again.

And in case you've forgotten it is at,
<http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/>.

For those who are new to the list, there has been a lot of new material
added as part of the Biography, Bibliography, and Links.

And now you have the option to get the glencook-fans mailing list as a
digest. See the site for details.

-- 
Eric Herrmann
<shpshftr@xmission.com>






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From: "Wright Frazier" <khelek@cioe.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Favorite BC book
Date: 14 Aug 2000 10:25:19 -0500

Shadowslinger.

I love the feel that Cook gave Juniper and that was the start for me of the
real black company series.  It delt much much more with people in a personal
level like the later books.  I must say though, Water Sleeps comes a close
2nd.

Wright

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2000 9:25 AM


> Having just finished SL (much to the detriment of my dissertation!), I was
> curious what _single_ BC book was people's favorite and why--now that it
> appears Glen has given us the whole set.  Anyone have an opinion they'd be
> willing to share (good bet in this group!)?
>
> For myself, I still the think the book that hooked me on the whole thing,
> The Black Company, is the winner.  I like that the villians (and heroes!)
> are still villianous and mysterious--Raven is still a bad-a**, Lady is
> humanizing but not yet humanized, Soulcatcher is still somewhat distant,
> Limper still sane enough to be a threat and the Dominator a scary beast in
> the ground.  Even more peripheral characters, like Harding and Whisper,
have
> a hardness and resiliance I didn't find as consistently in the subsequent
> books.  Since the Company is still together, the narrative is coherent and
> continuous, which I like (personal taste).  Less feeling of the Company as
a
> pawn of greater celestial powers.  And, much as I respect Cook for letting
> his characters age, decay and even die, several of my favorite characters
> (One-Eye and Goblin, mainly) are more fun when they are still spry.
>
> That said, I love the all, even Silver Spike.
>
> Others?
> -----
> Glenn Hoetker
> ghoetker@umich.edu
> PhD Candidate, International Business &
> Corporate Strategy
> University of Michigan Business School
>
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>



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From: Aaron Contreras <Aaron.Contreras@sierra.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Favorite BC book
Date: 14 Aug 2000 08:30:10 -0700

I'd have to say the original Black Company as well.  The emphasis on being
right there as things happened, part of a squad rather than following around
the commander of a large unit.  I rather liked the Company as mercenaries
working for the 'bad guys'.


I really liked Bleak Seasons, because it confused me so much.  I loved She
is the Darkness, because it made Bleak Seasons make sense and really hyped
me up for Water Sleeps.  Soldiers Live was kind've a letdown, simply because
(as many have stated) all the new cool cultures and magical stuff either
gets pushed aside or quickly debunked and discarded.  Still a great read, of
course.

I've only reread Bleak Seasons and She is the Darkness about twice each.
Anytime I've read a glittering stone book, I've done it in under 48
hours...they just float together in my head.

Aaron Contreras


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2000 9:25 AM


> Having just finished SL (much to the detriment of my dissertation!), I was
> curious what _single_ BC book was people's favorite and why--now that it
> appears Glen has given us the whole set.  Anyone have an opinion they'd be
> willing to share (good bet in this group!)?
>
> For myself, I still the think the book that hooked me on the whole thing,
> The Black Company, is the winner.  I like that the villians (and heroes!)
> are still villianous and mysterious--Raven is still a bad-a**, Lady is
> humanizing but not yet humanized, Soulcatcher is still somewhat distant,
> Limper still sane enough to be a threat and the Dominator a scary beast in
> the ground.  Even more peripheral characters, like Harding and Whisper,
have
> a hardness and resiliance I didn't find as consistently in the subsequent
> books.  Since the Company is still together, the narrative is coherent and
> continuous, which I like (personal taste).  Less feeling of the Company as
a
> pawn of greater celestial powers.  And, much as I respect Cook for letting
> his characters age, decay and even die, several of my favorite characters
> (One-Eye and Goblin, mainly) are more fun when they are still spry.
>
> That said, I love the all, even Silver Spike.
>
> Others?
> -----
> Glenn Hoetker
> ghoetker@umich.edu
> PhD Candidate, International Business &
> Corporate Strategy
> University of Michigan Business School
>
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>



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From: Steve Harris <harrissg@slu.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Enough on Jordan!
Date: 14 Aug 2000 10:43:19 -0500

Christopher,

Well, instead of over-reacting to the means (comparsion with Jordan) to
this particular end (the nature of the singular qualities of Cook), how
about discussing the thesis I advanced for the specific nature of the
difference in Cook's cycle, to wit, the use of an organization of
changing personnel as the protagonist that carries the moral burden of
the cycle?

Does the company, actually, fit the literary trope of a protagonist on a
journey of moral discovery?   If so, is this actually a unique invention
of Cook's, or does it have literary antecedents?  Is it a successful
device on its own merits, or does the cycle work in spite of, not
because of, this feature?

Steve

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From: "Warner, Jon" <Jon.Warner@ps.net>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Enough on Jordan!
Date: 14 Aug 2000 11:12:48 -0500

Steve wrote: how about discussing the thesis I advanced for the specific
nature of the
> difference in Cook's cycle, to wit, the use of an organization of
> changing personnel as the protagonist that carries the moral burden of
> the cycle?
	An excellent question,imho.  I think the BC cycle actually works
best when viewed as journey fiction.  The Company as a protagonist provides
a large canvas that allows a look at the "moral burden" of the organization,
which changes dramatically from the outset of the Free Companies from
Khatovar to the close of SL. It also works well on a personal level as you
see how the unfolding events effect the men and women who comprise the
Company.
	
> Does the company, actually, fit the literary trope of a 
> protagonist on a
> journey of moral discovery?

	Definitely.  The Company has a tangible history and character that
is subject to the forces of change and tradition.

>If so, is this actually a 
> unique invention
> of Cook's, or does it have literary antecedents?

	Journey literature has been around for a long time.  I think Cook's
particular take resonates well with The Heart of Darkness, Lord of the
Flies, and (reaching way back) even the Israelites of the Old Testament to
name just a few.

>Is it a successful
> device on its own merits, or does the cycle work in spite of, not
> because of, this feature?
	I think it is a successful device on it's own merits and an
excellent vehicle to examine group "morality" over the course of several
generations.  Best of all, it entertains and holds the imagination.

Of course, that's just my opinion.  I could be wrong.

Jonathan

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Harris [mailto:harrissg@slu.edu]
> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2000 9:43 AM
> To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Enough on Jordan!
> 
> 
> Christopher,
> 
> Well, instead of over-reacting to the means (comparsion with 
> Jordan) to
> this particular end (the nature of the singular qualities of 
> Cook), how
> about discussing the thesis I advanced for the specific nature of the
> difference in Cook's cycle, to wit, the use of an organization of
> changing personnel as the protagonist that carries the moral burden of
> the cycle?
> 
> Does the company, actually, fit the literary trope of a 
> protagonist on a
> journey of moral discovery?   If so, is this actually a 
> unique invention
> of Cook's, or does it have literary antecedents?  Is it a successful
> device on its own merits, or does the cycle work in spite of, not
> because of, this feature?
> 
> Steve
> 
> ==============================================================
> =========
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
> 


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From: Matthew Roche <rocheml@cerebusnm.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Favorite BC book
Date: 14 Aug 2000 10:52:03 -0600

i think that _the white rose_ is my favorite black company book. the
juxtaposition of the dominator's resurgence with the mystery letters coming
from the barrowland (i just love 'views into the past' and similar plot
devices) and the way the two plotlines converged was just masterful. that,
combined with the denouement involving the dominator, the lady, the white
rose and the near total destruction of the company made for a book that's
hard to beat.

although if you were asking about cook novels in general, you can't beat
_the dragon never sleeps_...

(begging for argument)

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2000 10:26 AM


Having just finished SL (much to the detriment of my dissertation!), I was
curious what _single_ BC book was people's favorite and why--now that it
appears Glen has given us the whole set.  Anyone have an opinion they'd be
willing to share (good bet in this group!)?

For myself, I still the think the book that hooked me on the whole thing,
The Black Company, is the winner.  I like that the villians (and heroes!)
are still villianous and mysterious--Raven is still a bad-a**, Lady is
humanizing but not yet humanized, Soulcatcher is still somewhat distant,
Limper still sane enough to be a threat and the Dominator a scary beast in
the ground.  Even more peripheral characters, like Harding and Whisper, have
a hardness and resiliance I didn't find as consistently in the subsequent
books.  Since the Company is still together, the narrative is coherent and
continuous, which I like (personal taste).  Less feeling of the Company as a
pawn of greater celestial powers.  And, much as I respect Cook for letting
his characters age, decay and even die, several of my favorite characters
(One-Eye and Goblin, mainly) are more fun when they are still spry.

That said, I love the all, even Silver Spike.

Others?
-----
Glenn Hoetker
ghoetker@umich.edu
PhD Candidate, International Business &
Corporate Strategy
University of Michigan Business School


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From: Steve Harris <harrissg@slu.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Enough on Jordan!
Date: 14 Aug 2000 11:55:58 -0500

Jonathan,

Whoa, that is reaching, alright!  But a very intriguing grasp, it is:

"(reaching way back) even the Israelites of the Old Testament"

The Black Company as the Chosen People?  With Croaker as Moses,
providing the moral focus (in the stricter sense of that word "moral"),
writing the history of his people, but not able to go with them in their
final journey?  

(Just how far can we stretch this--hmm, chosen by Kina? or by Shivetya? 
"Light unto the nations"--naaaa, I don't think so.)

Well, it's a fun exercize, anyway.

Seriously:  The sort of literary antecedent I was hoping for would have
to be one that dealt largely with a changing body of people (with,
perhaps, a single guiding hand leading the way), and that experienced a
change in convictions--in moral thrust of their existence--during the
course of the changes in personnel (possibly accompanying a similar
change in a guiding hand).  Could, indeed, be modeled in that respect by
the Israelites of the Books of Moses, though I was hoping for something
in a more clearly fictive/entertainment vein.

Steve

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From: Jake Kesinger <kesinger@math.ttu.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Enough on Jordan!
Date: 14 Aug 2000 12:05:26 -0500 (CDT)

On Mon, 14 Aug 2000, Steve Harris wrote:

> Jonathan,
> 
> Whoa, that is reaching, alright!  But a very intriguing grasp, it is:
> "(reaching way back) even the Israelites of the Old Testament"
> 
> The Black Company as the Chosen People?  With Croaker as Moses,
> providing the moral focus (in the stricter sense of that word "moral"),
> writing the history of his people, but not able to go with them in their
> final journey?  

``In those days, the Children of Isreal were in service to Pharoh...''

Then the other Free Companies of Khatovar could represent the Ten
Lost Tribes?

  ==Jake 


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From: Eric Herrmann <shpshftr@xmission.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Journey Fiction (was Enough on Jordan!)
Date: 14 Aug 2000 11:11:34 -0600

on 8/14/00 10:55 AM, Steve Harris at harrissg@slu.edu wrote:
> Whoa, that is reaching, alright!  But a very intriguing grasp, it is:
> 
> "(reaching way back) even the Israelites of the Old Testament"
> 
> The Black Company as the Chosen People?  With Croaker as Moses,
> providing the moral focus (in the stricter sense of that word "moral"),
> writing the history of his people, but not able to go with them in their
> final journey?  
> 
> (Just how far can we stretch this--hmm, chosen by Kina? or by Shivetya?
> "Light unto the nations"--naaaa, I don't think so.)
> 
> Well, it's a fun exercize, anyway.

So we've gone from Jordan to the River Jordan. <g>
Not that this topic needs to stay with the Old Testament.

I've changed the subject line to reflect this.

-- 
Eric Herrmann
<shpshftr@xmission.com>


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From: "Joshua Peery" <jloasrah@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Enough on Jordan!
Date: 14 Aug 2000 13:11:54 -0400


> ``In those days, the Children of Isreal were in service to Pharoh...''
> 
> Then the other Free Companies of Khatovar could represent the Ten
> Lost Tribes?
> 
>   ==Jake 


hehehe  Captain Moroni waging war .....


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From: "Warner, Jon" <Jon.Warner@ps.net>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Enough on Jordan!
Date: 14 Aug 2000 12:29:24 -0500

Steve,
	It is a fun exercise!  For something in a more fictive/entertainment
vein, (not to mention more contemporary) how about Frank Herbert's DUNE and
Asimov's Foundation series?  The style differs widely from Cook, but the
large thematic brush strokes are there. However, I can't think of examples
that adhere more closely to Cook's recipe off the top of my head  (aside
from Moses and his crew).  Cook is able to use these large themes extremely
well, like the Starfishers play on Wagner's Ring Cycle.  I'm also wondering
if the Black Company, as a protagonist, would fit well into Joseph
Campbell's Hero's Journey? 

Jonathan

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Harris [mailto:harrissg@slu.edu]
> Sent: Monday, August 14, 2000 10:56 AM
> To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Enough on Jordan!
> 
> 
> Jonathan,
> 
> Whoa, that is reaching, alright!  But a very intriguing grasp, it is:
> 
> "(reaching way back) even the Israelites of the Old Testament"
> 
> The Black Company as the Chosen People?  With Croaker as Moses,
> providing the moral focus (in the stricter sense of that word 
> "moral"),
> writing the history of his people, but not able to go with 
> them in their
> final journey?  
> 
> (Just how far can we stretch this--hmm, chosen by Kina? or by 
> Shivetya? 
> "Light unto the nations"--naaaa, I don't think so.)
> 
> Well, it's a fun exercize, anyway.
> 
> Seriously:  The sort of literary antecedent I was hoping for 
> would have
> to be one that dealt largely with a changing body of people (with,
> perhaps, a single guiding hand leading the way), and that 
> experienced a
> change in convictions--in moral thrust of their existence--during the
> course of the changes in personnel (possibly accompanying a similar
> change in a guiding hand).  Could, indeed, be modeled in that 
> respect by
> the Israelites of the Books of Moses, though I was hoping for 
> something
> in a more clearly fictive/entertainment vein.
> 
> Steve
> 
> ==============================================================
> =========
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
> 


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From: Steve Harris <harrissg@slu.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Enough on Jordan!
Date: 14 Aug 2000 12:47:31 -0500

Jonathan,

"how about Frank Herbert's DUNE and
Asimov's Foundation series?  The style differs widely from Cook, but the
large thematic brush strokes are there."

I don't think Dune makes it as an analogous cycle, as there's no
coherent group which goes on a moral journey (at least I don't see that
in either the Fremen or the Bene Gesserit).  The orginal Foundation
Trilogy maybe has a case for it in terms of the Foundationers (First and
Second combined), but there's no reader identification with the group
that I feel.  (It's not the broad sweeps I find of interest in this
particular exploration of literary comparison.)

"the Starfishers play on Wagner's Ring Cycle"

I think I've got one of those around, but not the first, so I've not
delved into that series.  Maybe I can find them at Archon?

"I'm also wondering
if the Black Company, as a protagonist, would fit well into Joseph
Campbell's Hero's Journey?"

Care to elaborate on this?  I don't know Campbell's detailed version,
though the idea in general is pretty common.

Steve

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From: "Vonder Haar, Peter C." <Peter.VonderHaar@bakerhughes.com>
Subject: (glencook-fans) The FAQ - V. 0.1
Date: 14 Aug 2000 14:24:28 -0500

 Little did I realize how much I *didn't* know about Glen Cook until I
started doing my research for this.  Said research basically involved
looking at the various web pages out there - primarily Eric's - sifting
through the list archives, and copying other author FAQs' formats.
Nonetheless, I have come up with a rough version of the FAQ.
 "Rough" being the operative word.
 I should also point out that my knowledge of Cook's work extends only
through what I've personally read: the BC series, a few Garrett novels, the
_Swordbearer_, and _The Heirs of Babylon_.  The FAQ reflects this, and if
anybody has any contributions that should be included about DE, Darkwar, or
Starfishers, I'm all ears.
 The wording of the document is also not complete.  I plan on putting
everything together better, format-wise, and credit will be given where due.
Most answers will be fleshed out as well.  What I'm looking for at this
point is content.  I'll make it pretty later.
 The FAQ has ???'s listed where information is either suspect or frankly
lacking.  Note that this doesn't mean I'm assuming everything else is
correct.  This e-mail is for you, the listmembers, to pick apart and review
what I've put together.  I'm not sensitive.  If you think it sucks, tell me
so, and I'll change what I can.
 That said, here you go:

------------
The Glen Cook FAQ

Q: Who is this Glen Cook fellow anyway?

A: Glen Charles Cook was born in 1944 in New York City. He has lived in
Columbus, Indiana; Rocklin, California; and Columbia, Missouri, where he
attended the state university (Univeristy of Missouri)[1]. He attended the
Clarion Writers Workshop in 1970, where he met his wife, Carol.  He is the
author of, among others, the Black Company series, the Garrett, P.I. series,
the Dread Empire series, the Starfishers trilogy, and the Darkwar trilogy.
He is widely regarded by his fans as one of the most under-appreciated and
unsung fantasy/sci-fi authors working today.


Q: What other authors would you recommend for a fan of Cook's?

A: Many Cook readers look for authors that write with a gritty, realistic
(for fantasy/sci-fi) feel similar to his.  Some names that have come up,
repeatedly, on the Glen Cook Mailing List include: Steven Brust (Vlad Taltos
series), Laurel Hamilton (Anita Blake series), David Gemmell (Drenai
series), George R. Martin, David Drake, MS Rohan (Winter of the World
series, Northworld trilogy), Iain M. Banks, Michael Moorcock (Elric of
Melnibone series), Robert Jordan (Wheel of Time series).
   This is by no means an exhaustive list.


Q: Where can I find a copy of Dread Empire/Starfishers/Darkwar books?  

A: Cook's works are often popping up on different auction sites and book
search pages.  Here are a few places to look:

EBay - http://www.ebay.com
ABE Books - http://www.abebooks.com
Alibris.com - http://www.alibris.com
Bibliofind - http://www.bibliofind.com
Barnes and Noble http://www.bn.com 
The Dragon Never Sleeps (see below)

Occasionally, members of the mailing list have extras they are willing to
sell/trade for.


Q: What is this mailing list you keep referring to?

A: You can sign up for the Glen Cook Mailing List at
 mailto:majordomo@xmission.com?body=subscribe%20GlenCook-Fans


Q; What are some good web sites devoted to Glen Cook?

A: There are several.  

 The Glen Cook Fan Page - http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Home.html
 The Black Company Homepage - http://www.shout.net/~bburgner/blackco.html
 Eldon the Seer's Black Company Outpost -
http://members.tripod.com/~blackco/
 Tor - Cook's publisher - http://www.tor.com/tor.html
 
 A much more comprehensive list can be found at
 http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Links.html


Q: Is it true Cook works in an auto plant?

A: Mr. Cook used to work in a GM light truck plant in St. Louis.  He has
since retired.


Q: Did Cook ever serve in the military? 

A: ???


Q: How can I contact him?  Does he have an e-mail address?

A: It is pretty widely acknowledged that Glen does not have an e-mail
address and, in fact, is not very enamored of computers in general.
     The Dragon Never Sleeps
     4106 Flora Place
     St. Louis, MO  63310

Note that this is not a physical store to visit, per se, but a private
service run by Cook for people seeking specific books.


Q: What has he written?
(apologies in advance if the formatting is screwy)

A: The Black Company:				From the Files of Garrett
P.I.
	The Books of the North			Sweet Silver Blues (1987)
	The Black Company (1984)		Bitter Gold Hearts (1988)
	Shadows Linger (1984)			Cold Copper Tears (1988)
	The White Rose (1985)			Old Tin Sorrows (1989)
						Dread Brass Shadows (1990)
	The Silver Spike (1989)			Red Iron Nights (1991)
						Deadly Quicksilver Lies
(1994)
	The Books of the South			Petty Pewter Gods (1995)
	Shadow Games (1989)			Faded Steel Heat (1999)
	Dreams of Steel (1990)
						Omnibus
	Glittering Stone				The Garrett Files
(1988)
	Bleak Seasons (1996)
	She Is the Darkness (1997)
	Water Sleeps (1998)
	Soldiers Live (2000)

	Anthologies
	The Annals of the Black Company (1986)

   The Haunting Dread Empire			The Starfishers Trilogy
	Prequels					Shadowline (1982)
	The Fire in His Hands (1984)		Starfishers (1982)
	With Mercy Towards None (1985)		Star's End (1982)

	The Dread Empire Trilogy			Passage at Arms
(1985)
	A Shadow of All Night Falling (1979)
	October's Baby (1980)
	All Darkness Met (1980)

	Sequels
	Reap the East Wind (1987)
	An Ill Fate Marshalling (1988)

	Future works
	A Path to Coldness of the Heart
	The Cruel Storm
	
   The Darkwar Trilogy			Others
	Doomstalker (1985)		The Swap Academy (1970)
	Warlock	 (1985)			The Heirs of Babylon (1972)
	Ceremony (1986)			The Swordbearer (1982)
					A Matter of Time (1985)
					The Dragon Never Sleeps (1988)
					The Tower of Fear (1989)
					Sung in Blood (1990)

   Short Stories
	???
					
Cook has said the planned Dread Empire books are "unlikely to appear."
According to later reports, this might be viewed as an understatement.


Q: What's Glen's best book?

A: Depends on who you ask.  Some love _The Tower of Fear_, others favor _The
Dragon Never Sleeps_, still more would say _The Black Company_.  One thing's
for certain, nobody ever recommends _The Swap Academy_.


Q: Is Glen planning on writing any more...

Dread Empire books?
A: Highly unlikely.  The originals sold so poorly that it is apparently not
feasible for him to write any more, though he has said he has plots for
further books. (Harold Burns)

Black Company books?
A: Also not likely.  Glen has said he's hanging it up after _Soldiers Live_.

Swordbearer books?
A: He did, reportedly.  He didn't like it. 

Garrett books?
A: ???


Q: To whom should I write to encourage the publication of more Dread Empire
stories?

A: Cook's editor may or may not be Patrick Nielsen Hayden (???)
     Tor Books
     175 Fifth Avenue
     New York City, NY  10010


BC QUESTIONS:

The "Black Company" series is Cook's most popular, without a doubt.

Q: What is Tonk?

A: A card game played by mercenaries of the Black Company throughout the
series to pass the time.  The following sites have versions of the rules:

http://www.gamecabinet.com/rules/Tonk.html 
http://www.bsfs.org/bsfstonk.htm 


Q: Do any maps exist of the world of the Black Company novels?

A: Cook has never made any official maps, and has indicated he will never do
so.  Some fan representations can be found at:

http://www.cofc.edu/~wraggj/blackco/

http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/Images/MapNorth.GIF
http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/Images/MapSouth.GIF
http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/Images/MapShadow.GIF


Q: Are the games "Myth: The Fallen Lords" and "Myth II: Soulblighter" based
on the Black Company novels?

A: Not officially, though the similarities between the two are enough to put
that whole Lincoln-Kennedy thing to shame.  "Eldon the Seer" has a fine page
dedicated to just this topic.  You can find it here:

http://members.tripod.com/~blackco/myth-n-bc.html


Q: What's Croaker's real name?

A: Marion Morrison.  Kidding.  It's never stated.
--------

 There, told you it was rough.  Obviously since there isn't (to my
knowledge) a Usenet newsgroup devoted to Cook there's no need to post things
about spam, but I'm considering including a section on e-mail etiquette and
off-topic posts.  Please e-mail me privately with any suggestions.  I'm
especially open to anything people feel should be included about the other
series, the debate over naming, and what the deal is with the attempt to
name Lady, since I've only read _The White Rose_ once (and that was several
years ago) and it's the only BC book I don't own.

 Pete

[1] I'll have to check my parents' old yearbooks, as they attended Mizzou at
roughly the same time Cook would've.

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From: Eric Herrmann <shpshftr@xmission.com>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Soldiers Live PB
Date: 14 Aug 2000 14:32:55 -700


The TOR site lists "Soldiers Live" to published in paperback April    
2001. <http://www.tor.com/scheduletor.html>                           
                                                                      
--                                                                    
Eric Herrmann                                                         
<shpshftr@xmission.com>                                               

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From: "Bill Acuff" <wacuff@edge.net>
Subject: (glencook-fans) newbie talks about Cook and the Black Company
Date: 14 Aug 2000 15:48:37 -0500

Hey, all.

First time poster who really likes Glen Cook--mostly because of the Black
Company series. I just finished SL and a subsequent message will follow re.
that novel. I've read all of the Company books, The Swordbearer, the
Starfishers series, and The Tower of Fear.

I can't remember when I first picked up a copy of The Black Company, but it
must have been in the very early 90s. I think Dreams of Steel had just come
out, so that must be right. In any case, like most of you I fell in love
with that story and the two novels that followed it. My Cook favorites have
to be TBC, Shadows Linger, and The Silver Spike (I know that last one may
seem like an odd choice, but I just love what he did with the characters in
that book), followed closely by The White Rose and a non-Company book, The
Tower of Fear.

Favorite characters: Croaker leads the pack, followed by Raven, who is
followed closely by One-Eye, Goblin, and Silent. Cook was at his absolute
best, IMO, when he had all five of these guys together in TBC. I liked
Marron Shed and Smeds Stahl, too (in spite of myself)--and of course the
Lady (not Lady, but THE Lady . . . big difference, there), Soulcatcher and
Limper, and Case from TSS. I always tried to play One-Eye as my black
sorcerer in Diablo. Anybody else do that? <grin> Also on that subject, of
COURSE the Bungie game "Myth" borrowed, and I do mean borrowed *heavily*,
from The Black Company. No doubt--but I think that's cool. <shrug> Short of
having Bungie do a "Black Company" game, this is the next best thing.

Cook sure does a good job of making us like "bad" characters, doesn't he?
Raven, all by himself, is worthy of an entire series of novels, IMO. I read
somewhere that Cook doesn't think of himself as being very good at
characterization. I have to respectfully disagree with him. I think he
absolutely nails to the wall so many diverse and believable personality
types in his work--and I just KNOW that most of these characters have to be
at least loosely based on friends or acquaintances of his from over the
years. Why not? He admits that Croaker is more-or-less an image of himself,
right? So maybe he works with two guys, one black and one white (the latter
with a frog-faced grin, no doubt), who are always playing tricks on each
other . . . see what I'm getting at? Of course, the sign of an author who
can write good characters would be one who can make us either care deeply
about them -or- hate them with everything we have--I think Cook has
obviously done admirably there, but to say more would be a spoiler, so I
won't. <grin>

I think a lot of the ground Cook has traversed with his work (or at least
that portion of his work that I am conversant with) does draw from many
established influences in those genres--but I have little thought of Cook
ripping other authors off (he may be writing about swords and sorcery and
fantastical wars and monstrous things from barrows, but he does it from a
quite unique perspective and with a creative flourish that can be found
nowhere else, IMO). The hiring of a band of mercs by one of The Ten Who Were
Taken in the midst of their plotting and political backstabbing, as ideas,
are of pure genius, IMO.

As an amateur writer ("amateur" because I haven't actually sold anything,
"writer" because I've actually completed a few things) I appreciate
creativity. And I think for me the ultimate writing experience would be to
create an entire world (geography, people, history, social and economic and
cultural issues, etc) out of cloth and populate it with interesting people
doing very interesting things--just like Glen has done many times.

One point of interest that you BC fans may really appreciate (assuming no
one has brought this up before): I was poring over my college copy of "A
History of England and the Empire-Commonweath" (my first BS degree was in
history) looking for "grist for the mill," as Glen puts it. I've got some
ideas that I was looking into. Anyway, check out what I found in a chapter
entitled "Beyond the Borders, 1277-1377":

"Yet another military innovation, particularly stimulated by this progress
of infantry, was the professional, or mercenary, soldier. Two centuries
earlier, when scutage began to appear, Henry II had appreciated the
advantage of hiring the fighters who would stay under arms for more than the
conventional forty days (see page 78). The system became general during the
Hundred Years' War. Contractors--or, as the Italians called them,
"condottieri"--would promise to furnish a ruler so many fighters for a
certain price. These men were not necessarily of the same nationality. The
contractor would then sign up the necessary number of "free companies," or
units which were ready to sell their services for ready money. The first
armies sent to France during this war were general levies based on the
military legislation of Edward I; then, England turned to the professionals
of the free companies. During the next three centuries the average free
companies in Europe might be composed of men of a dozen different lands;
those in English pay were largely Englishmen. All free companies fought for
anyone, as long as their pay came regularly. During intervals of peace, and
consequent unemployment, they would live off the country, and any luckless
peasant at their approach knew that neither he himself, his crops, his home,
nor his womenfolk were safe. Such bands, both English and French, were to
ravage the French countryside year after year."

Pretty interesting, no? I have to wonder if Glen didn't get the basis for
the entire series from this area of history (surely not from the same book,
though . . . LOL).

By the way, anybody know where I can score a decent copy of any of the
following (especially the Dread Empire books and Doomstalker)?

October's Baby, All Darkness Met, An Ill Fate Marshalling, Passage At Arms,
Doomstalker,  The Dragon Never Sleeps, The Heirs of Babylon, A Matter of
Time, Sung in Blood, The Swap Academy.

Once I score copies of these, I'll have all of Glen's novels except for the
Garrett stuff. I haven't tried any of that yet--maybe I will one of these
days.

Enough for now.

L8r,

Bill Acuff
wacuff@edge.net

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. And inside of a dog, it's
too dark to read." - Fiction Writer, October 1999.


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From: "JM Rhodes" <jammers@netzero.net>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Favorite BC book
Date: 14 Aug 2000 14:05:55 -0700

Matthew wrote:

although if you were asking about cook novels in general, you can't beat
_the dragon never sleeps_...

Great book, but I liked Swordbearer more... the writing is definitely more
primitive than BC, but it has a freshness that I enjoyed a great deal, and
is more cohesive along the line of "Heroic Journey" than some of his other
works...

John
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Matthew
Roche
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2000 9:52 AM


i think that _the white rose_ is my favorite black company book. the
juxtaposition of the dominator's resurgence with the mystery letters coming
from the barrowland (i just love 'views into the past' and similar plot
devices) and the way the two plotlines converged was just masterful. that,
combined with the denouement involving the dominator, the lady, the white
rose and the near total destruction of the company made for a book that's
hard to beat.

although if you were asking about cook novels in general, you can't beat
_the dragon never sleeps_...

(begging for argument)

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2000 10:26 AM


Having just finished SL (much to the detriment of my dissertation!), I was
curious what _single_ BC book was people's favorite and why--now that it
appears Glen has given us the whole set.  Anyone have an opinion they'd be
willing to share (good bet in this group!)?

For myself, I still the think the book that hooked me on the whole thing,
The Black Company, is the winner.  I like that the villians (and heroes!)
are still villianous and mysterious--Raven is still a bad-a**, Lady is
humanizing but not yet humanized, Soulcatcher is still somewhat distant,
Limper still sane enough to be a threat and the Dominator a scary beast in
the ground.  Even more peripheral characters, like Harding and Whisper, have
a hardness and resiliance I didn't find as consistently in the subsequent
books.  Since the Company is still together, the narrative is coherent and
continuous, which I like (personal taste).  Less feeling of the Company as a
pawn of greater celestial powers.  And, much as I respect Cook for letting
his characters age, decay and even die, several of my favorite characters
(One-Eye and Goblin, mainly) are more fun when they are still spry.

That said, I love the all, even Silver Spike.

Others?
-----
Glenn Hoetker
ghoetker@umich.edu
PhD Candidate, International Business &
Corporate Strategy
University of Michigan Business School


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From: "JM Rhodes" <jammers@netzero.net>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Enough on Jordan!
Date: 14 Aug 2000 14:14:31 -0700

Not so bad an analogy, really, considering that the birth of the fiction
Hero can be drawn from the Ramayana and other semi-religious texts... Joseph
Campbell even postulated that the rise in popularity of such stories stemmed
from our societies separation from its religious roots while still needing
"Heroes" on an emotional/mythological level...

So I don't think it's much of a reach to say that the BC device of the
changing Company can be related to a historical/mythological text like the
story of the Hebrews... in fact, if you've read Judges lately, you'd know
that it contains some pretty heavy action... a "whole lot of smitin' goin'
on" in there... and the basic plots of the stories of Jacob, Joseph, Moses,
David, and others have been recycled until they are an almost invisible
influence on modern writing...

John

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Jake
Kesinger
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2000 10:05 AM


On Mon, 14 Aug 2000, Steve Harris wrote:

> Jonathan,
>
> Whoa, that is reaching, alright!  But a very intriguing grasp, it is:
> "(reaching way back) even the Israelites of the Old Testament"
>
> The Black Company as the Chosen People?  With Croaker as Moses,
> providing the moral focus (in the stricter sense of that word "moral"),
> writing the history of his people, but not able to go with them in their
> final journey?

``In those days, the Children of Isreal were in service to Pharoh...''

Then the other Free Companies of Khatovar could represent the Ten
Lost Tribes?

  ==Jake


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From: "Bill Acuff" <wacuff@edge.net>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Soldiers Live discussion (***SPOILERS*** from all of Cook's BC novels)
Date: 14 Aug 2000 16:39:03 -0500

Everyone,

Black Company series, including Soldiers Live and The Silver Spike, spoilers
below . . .

. . .

. . .

. . .

Eric wrote (in terms of the Books of the South and Glittering Stone):

>> Total = 2409 pages. (The Books of the North 955 pages)

>> I didn't particularly like the Glittering Stone books at all. But I
>> suppose that is because I was reading them expecting something different
>> and it took so very long for them to be published.

Agreed on both points. I long for the days when he was putting out one a
year (just like the days when rock bands were putting out an album a year,
but I digress). I guess I should say that I didn't like the Glittering Stone
books compared to the Books of the North--but, compared to most of the other
fantasy I've read, these books are great.

>> I expected a nice tight run to Khatavor to find out the Why of the Black
>> Company. Shadow Games would have gotten us to Dejagore, Dreams of Steel
>> to Overlook, and Glittering Stone to Khatavor and the death of Kina. Done
>> in a 1000 pages.

Christopher replied:

> Hhhhhmmm, got to go against you on this one, Eric. This was one of the
> things I actually liked about the Books of the South. The Company can't
> just bluster on through like they do in the North. They get thwarted,
> side-tracked, and caught up in intrigue. If they ran things in the South
> like they did in the north they would have said, "Screw these people,
> we've got the Lance, let's make a run around." And don't tell me
> they couldn't have. The Company was sneaking in and out of
> impenetrable fortress left and right. They could have slipped a
> measly seven guys past Overlook. Soulcatcher managed to do it.
> The fact that they weren't just gathering up the plot coupons to get
> from point A to point B was frustratingly refreshing.

Great points, both of you. Christopher, I don't think I've ever heard the
term "plot coupons" but I know *exactly* what you're talking about in terms
of storytelling and I agree with you--as far as that goes. But, Cook is
rarely predictable; I think we'd all agree to that. And this may not be what
you were implying, but I myself don't think of the plotting in the Books of
the North as coupon gathering. I can't remember exactly how I felt about the
stories the first time I read them (long time and many re-readings ago), but
I certainly don't remember them being linear at all. Tight, terse
storytelling, yes--a weak vehicle to get to the end of the story, no. In
fact, the only time at all in the first three that I felt the original story
begin to skip along was toward the latter third of The White Rose (when
Croaker and Lady hooked up, but before the Barrowland showdown).

Could it be that since The White Rose and The Silver Spike Cook just had way
too many ideas for the south and so throughout the rest of the series he was
flying around willy-nilly by the seat of his pants? I've read that in the
early days he was notorious for overwriting and that his stories would
invariably be way big--perhaps he intended to expand on a lot of the loose
ends but during the writing of each novel he ended up picking one of many
courses available to him and stuck with it throughout that particular piece?

I know well how a few thoughts can balloon into something practically
unmanageable (like this post, for instance).

Eric wrote:

>>  I think the real story would have better if it had been presented as two
>> trilogies and lost about 400 pages. The first trilogy handling the Shadow
>> Masters and the second trilogy handling Khatavor and Kina.

I could do without the entire Dreams of Steel/Bleak Seasons part of the
story, myself. The Deceivers was a cool idea, and the Shadowmasters weren't
too shabby (but I'd have liked more of them to be old "friends" from the
north), and the guerilla warfare feel within Taglios wasn't too bad, but
overall, it just didn't do much for me, comparatively speaking.

Maybe I am too fond of Croaker, but I could *not* get used to someone else
as annalist until She is the Darkness, and then only grudgingly. Sleepy was
a better voice than Murgen, I thought, but none of them were as fun to read
as Croaker. This last book solidifies that theory, at least for me. It was
such a joy to hear the *old* Croaker's voice again (and I don't think he was
flat, either; Cook did take pains to draw an older, middle-aged version of
the same character--maybe that's what made him different), or at least the
most similar voice to the first three books (yes, I realize that Croaker
narrated Shadow Games, but that was Croaker as the Captain--a completely
different animal than Croaker the Annalist).

Eric wrote:

>> Reading them thinking that Khatavor was the destination and then not
>> getting there each time and starting each book at square one back in
>> Taglios was an exercise in frustration for 10 years. I got really tired
>> of Taglios.

Christopher replied:

> Same here, but in the same way I got sick of Dejagore. In a good story
> telling way. They characters were also sick of it. It showed.

I got tired of both places. *None* of the cities in the south had the
character and excitement of a Meystrikt, a Juniper, or an Oar, IMO.

Speaking of Meystrikt, "Raker" is a Cook short story, right? I've never seen
it or read it, I've only seen it referenced in Eric's Cook bibliography. So
was the short story written *before* the "The Black Company" novel (and the
novel expanded on the short story), or was the short story just an excerpt
from the original story? Which came first?

Eric wrote:

>> In reality, Khatavor meant very little to nothing. The real story is Kina
>> and the half dozen perspectives or mythologies surrounding her.

Yeah, I thought that Khatovar could have really been done up by Cook. Maybe
he didn't want to fool with Khatovar? A red herring is what it turned out to
be, but I wonder if it was always that way in Glen's mind. As for Kina, that
whole thing just didn't seem real enough to "scare" me (completely different
from the Dominator; that dude seemed badder than bad *way* before we saw him
jump out of the ground). Cook likes to do that with his super villains,
doesn't he? He kept Kina and the Dominator off stage, and he's done this
many other times in other stories he's written (I won't mention any for fear
of spoiling).

Christopher replied:

> I kept wishing another wizard from the north would show up. No one ever
> really did go after lady for what she knew. I would have loved a scene
> where she gets tortured and gives it up, rats out every names she
> knows, gives of the spell of The Eye, and the secret to Taking. Instead
> we're constantly told what she represents, more power than the silver
> spike, and no one comes a huntin'? Even a few bedraggled bounty hunters
> would have been welcome.

Ditto, Christopher. Cook is famous for cheating more a soap-opera episode
writer in terms of bringing "dead" characters out of the woodwork--why
couldn't some of the blasts from the past have shown up? Some of the
original Ten were just begging to be elaborated on; many of them weren't
really "in" the original three novels, so bring them back for more than an
encore, what?

I gotta admit, I've wanted to see Raven and/or Silent again ever since they
got waxed in the last few pages of TSS. Raven had died only, what, three
times? <grin> What difference would another life or two make? And Case only
mentions "flesh splashing like water" or something like that when Silent
jumps on the Limper-thing's back--Case never acknowledged, *directly*, that
Silent was dead. That was a bigger loophole than many of the others got
through--a headless Soulcatcher and a "bodiless" Limper come to mind. And
yeah, somebody should have come south looking for Lady--she was *way* too
valuable.

Eric wrote:

>> I didn't find the ending satisfying. I didn't like how the characters
>> kept dieing. I didn't like how Khatavor was handled. Croaker was missing
>> that spark. Lady and Soulcatcher were non-existant. Croaker was the
>> only three-dimensional character, everyone else was flat. There wasn't
>> a good climax. The book carried on in a monotonous, unemotional style.

No kidding, on the character deaths. Starting from the third sentence (Otto
and Hagop) of the book and continuing on, and on, and on . . .

Maybe we who don't know Cook from the Dread Empire books should have known;
heck, he whacked Tom-Tom right quick (which was a shame, too; I thought that
character had some serious miles left in him; Candy, Elmo, and the original
Captain come to mind, as well).

Years ago when Raven and Silent died (on practically the same page, for
crying out loud) it was bad enough; then Goblin shuffles off in Water
Sleeps; and NOW, my stars, let's start playing Taps throughout the entire
novel. One-Eye I expected; heck, he should have died years ago. Murgen
and then Sleepy getting axed in such a terrible way was the worst, unless
you consider the sheer volume of the body count (practically every principal
character)? Geez, Louise, Cook sure can clean house, can't he? I guess he
gets to the point when he doesn't want to write any more about a character,
and so he pulls the trigger. But this was the equivalent of a time-release
bomb to almost all of his characters. I know, I know, it should be gritty
and realistic, but still, I was so callused by the end of the book I wasn't
even really *that* thrilled to learn that Croaker wasn't going to "die," at
least not in a conventional sense.

Call me a softie (wouldn't be the first time) but I think I can feel a whole
lot better about the resolution of an epic story like this when at least a
decent portion of the principal characters survive to see said resolution.
Within reason, in any case (some epics take too long in terms of years). But
just think of how many years Otto, Hagop, Goblin and One-Eye fought shoulder
to shoulder with Croaker in his struggle to find Khatovar--too bad, guys; if
you could have just made it a little bit longer! I almost (but not quite)
want to wonder if Glen doesn't do this just so he won't be tempted to go
back and write more about characters he wanted to be "finished with." I
really did find the Khadidas (as opposed to the Khnike or Khconverse,
<grin>) stuff interesting, but through that idea Glen even manages to "kill"
our beloved Goblin twice!

Another pick: Howler wasn't needed in this story (except maybe to build
carpets). And to have him just "die" as normally as mortal humans, in a
raid, was silly. All those times he escaped death just to be fragged by a
shadow along with a bunch of other guys? Geez.

More complaining: I've never been the biggest fan of Murgen, but I thought
his portrayal in this story was weak as water. Sleepy was done a *little*
bit better, but Murgen might as well have not even been in the story. Maybe
he should have bought it in Water Sleeps <grin>.

Yet another thing: maybe I was reading the ending way too fast, but the
whole Lady and Booboo mother-daughter sob story/Mogaba defection/Tobo
attacking Aridatha Singh and getting his head broken open/rescue of Arkana
sequences smacked of disjointed, direction-less loose-end wrapping. It was,
to me, almost like Cook was trying to cram as much stuff and as many of his
ideas as he could into a small, confined space.

So do I like this stuff or not? Of course! I did like Shukrat (but what
kind of name is that, Glen? I kept reading "sauerkraut" or "shuck rat" every
time. That was particularly galling when the character in question is
supposed to be young and "rather attractive!") and Arkana. Two pleasant
surprises.

The "love me" spell of Booboo's was done well; pretty amusing, too, when you
think about it. What army could hope to conquer when they began loving their
enemies as they drew near? <grin>

What else did I like: I thought Croaker was fine. He was just playing the
part of an old man, way past his prime. Lady and Soulcatcher *were* rather
boring (and yet they end up "living!" Crap!). However, this is the first
book since The White Rose that I've gotten that "grunt level" storytelling
feel from Croaker--and that is one reason I liked the first three books so
much. When Croaker became the Captain, a lot of the fun went out of him;
consequently, for me, most of the fun went out of the story.

The "One-Eye's spear/hat to Goblin's ghost" angle was very touching; I don't
think I've ever come close to shedding a tear while reading a fantasy/sci-fi
novel (I'm 33 years old, with a wife and two kids, a house and two dogs,
bills and a yard to mow--fiction books usually don't move me *that* much)
before I read that scene toward the end (page 437) when Croaker talks about
how good of a friend One-Eye was to Goblin. Good stuff, Glen.

In sum, I really liked SL in terms of wrapping up the story, and I couldn't
have been more pleased to discover that Croaker was going to narrate his own
swan song. I'd rank this one somewhere below the Books of the North and The
Silver Spike, but probably just above the remaining books. Do I wish he had
stopped with The Silver Spike? No, I'm glad to have what he's given us. He
really is a creative writer in this genre. And to head off anyone who thinks
I'm a cad for being so critical, please understand: I love this stuff; if I
didn't, I wouldn't care enough to read it, much less read it over and over
and type long posts about it. Maybe it's just that when you get that close
to a form of art, you'd like to continue to be affected by it in the same
way. I hope nobody has been offended by what I've said, and I hope you will
realize that I'm absolutely with all of you in caring deeply about Glen and
his Black Company universe.

I do think that Glen is finished with this particular storyline. I wouldn't
mind reading some more set in the north (something with Father Tree or maybe
a prequel or something; he's done that with other worlds, right?), but I
guess I'm with Eric in that I'm glad the stories from south of the Sea of
Torments are over, apparently.

By the way, in SL Croaker says that he's 56 (give or take). Isn't that
almost exactly the same age as Cook (I thought I read that he was born in
1944)? Along those lines, I think Glen *might* do more BC in the future if
he's pressed, but I also would bet that he doesn't want to. Croaker said it
himself: "I am putting the pen down."

I guess I'd better put the keyboard down, now. Love to hear your comments.

L8r,

Bill Acuff
wacuff@edge.net

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. And inside of a dog, it's
too dark to read." - Fiction Writer, October 1999.



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From: "Jamison Wood" <jwood@ftdi.com>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Soldiers Live (Spoilers) loose ends
Date: 14 Aug 2000 16:53:03 -0500

One thing I was hoping this book would do would be to tie up a number of
loose ends, so I pose this question:
What loose ends didn't get tied up that you would have liked to find out
the story behind them?

For me, I would like to know why Blade was thrown to the Crocs, or what
happened to Longshadow once he was brought to justice?

I bet there are lots of little tidbits that got left dangling... I'd be
interested in others thoughts on loose ends, and possible answers.

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From: WinB@aol.com
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) newbie talks about Cook and the Black Company
Date: 14 Aug 2000 17:58:37 EDT

Welcome to the list, Bill. You have posted some very interesting comments. You might want to look for the White Company by Arthur Conan Doyle. It is about a free company during the Hundred Years War. Someone posted the Gutenburg link a while back, but I don't have the URL.

As far as finding old books, I haven't had much luck in Nashville (I noticed the email address...and as a former Edge employee, it stuck out like a very sore thumb).

By the way, your quote is originally from Groucho Marx.

Win

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From: Steve Harris <harrissg@SLU.EDU>
Subject: (glencook-fans) group protagonists
Date: 14 Aug 2000 17:49:31 -0500

Hi, all,

Being at a university has its advantages :)

Today I was talking with an English professor friend of mine, so I
brought up the subject matter I've raised:  What literary precedents are
there to having, as moral center or protagonist of a story, a group of
changing people?

He immediately suggested two:

_Thin Red Line_ by James Jones (author of _From Here to Eternity_)
_White Jacket_ by Herman Melville

The first is about an army company; the second about a ship's company. 
I think it no accident that miliarty or quasi-military novels are the
only antecedents he could think of to the Black Company.

Steve

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From: Matthew Roche <rocheml@cerebusnm.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) group protagonists
Date: 14 Aug 2000 17:01:54 -0600

and is it only coincidence that all of the have a color (or the absence
thereof) featured prominently in their titles?

hmmmmm...

;-]

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2000 6:50 PM


Hi, all,

Being at a university has its advantages :)

Today I was talking with an English professor friend of mine, so I
brought up the subject matter I've raised:  What literary precedents are
there to having, as moral center or protagonist of a story, a group of
changing people?

He immediately suggested two:

_Thin Red Line_ by James Jones (author of _From Here to Eternity_)
_White Jacket_ by Herman Melville

The first is about an army company; the second about a ship's company. 
I think it no accident that miliarty or quasi-military novels are the
only antecedents he could think of to the Black Company.

Steve

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From: "Tim Stalley" <Stalley@visi.com>
Subject: (glencook-fans) The swap academy
Date: 14 Aug 2000 20:10:12 -0500

This is my first time posting and I have a question.  Has anyone actually
seen "The Swap Acedemy"?


http://stalley.dsl.visi.com/glen_cook.htm

Tim



-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Vonder Haar,
Peter C.
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2000 2:24 PM


 Little did I realize how much I *didn't* know about Glen Cook until I
started doing my research for this.  Said research basically involved
looking at the various web pages out there - primarily Eric's - sifting
through the list archives, and copying other author FAQs' formats.
Nonetheless, I have come up with a rough version of the FAQ.
 "Rough" being the operative word.
 I should also point out that my knowledge of Cook's work extends only
through what I've personally read: the BC series, a few Garrett novels, the
_Swordbearer_, and _The Heirs of Babylon_.  The FAQ reflects this, and if
anybody has any contributions that should be included about DE, Darkwar, or
Starfishers, I'm all ears.
 The wording of the document is also not complete.  I plan on putting
everything together better, format-wise, and credit will be given where due.
Most answers will be fleshed out as well.  What I'm looking for at this
point is content.  I'll make it pretty later.
 The FAQ has ???'s listed where information is either suspect or frankly
lacking.  Note that this doesn't mean I'm assuming everything else is
correct.  This e-mail is for you, the listmembers, to pick apart and review
what I've put together.  I'm not sensitive.  If you think it sucks, tell me
so, and I'll change what I can.
 That said, here you go:

------------
The Glen Cook FAQ

Q: Who is this Glen Cook fellow anyway?

A: Glen Charles Cook was born in 1944 in New York City. He has lived in
Columbus, Indiana; Rocklin, California; and Columbia, Missouri, where he
attended the state university (Univeristy of Missouri)[1]. He attended the
Clarion Writers Workshop in 1970, where he met his wife, Carol.  He is the
author of, among others, the Black Company series, the Garrett, P.I. series,
the Dread Empire series, the Starfishers trilogy, and the Darkwar trilogy.
He is widely regarded by his fans as one of the most under-appreciated and
unsung fantasy/sci-fi authors working today.


Q: What other authors would you recommend for a fan of Cook's?

A: Many Cook readers look for authors that write with a gritty, realistic
(for fantasy/sci-fi) feel similar to his.  Some names that have come up,
repeatedly, on the Glen Cook Mailing List include: Steven Brust (Vlad Taltos
series), Laurel Hamilton (Anita Blake series), David Gemmell (Drenai
series), George R. Martin, David Drake, MS Rohan (Winter of the World
series, Northworld trilogy), Iain M. Banks, Michael Moorcock (Elric of
Melnibone series), Robert Jordan (Wheel of Time series).
   This is by no means an exhaustive list.


Q: Where can I find a copy of Dread Empire/Starfishers/Darkwar books?

A: Cook's works are often popping up on different auction sites and book
search pages.  Here are a few places to look:

EBay - http://www.ebay.com
ABE Books - http://www.abebooks.com
Alibris.com - http://www.alibris.com
Bibliofind - http://www.bibliofind.com
Barnes and Noble http://www.bn.com
The Dragon Never Sleeps (see below)

Occasionally, members of the mailing list have extras they are willing to
sell/trade for.


Q: What is this mailing list you keep referring to?

A: You can sign up for the Glen Cook Mailing List at
 mailto:majordomo@xmission.com?body=subscribe%20GlenCook-Fans


Q; What are some good web sites devoted to Glen Cook?

A: There are several.

 The Glen Cook Fan Page - http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Home.html
 The Black Company Homepage - http://www.shout.net/~bburgner/blackco.html
 Eldon the Seer's Black Company Outpost -
http://members.tripod.com/~blackco/
 Tor - Cook's publisher - http://www.tor.com/tor.html

 A much more comprehensive list can be found at
 http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Links.html


Q: Is it true Cook works in an auto plant?

A: Mr. Cook used to work in a GM light truck plant in St. Louis.  He has
since retired.


Q: Did Cook ever serve in the military?

A: ???


Q: How can I contact him?  Does he have an e-mail address?

A: It is pretty widely acknowledged that Glen does not have an e-mail
address and, in fact, is not very enamored of computers in general.
     The Dragon Never Sleeps
     4106 Flora Place
     St. Louis, MO  63310

Note that this is not a physical store to visit, per se, but a private
service run by Cook for people seeking specific books.


Q: What has he written?
(apologies in advance if the formatting is screwy)

A: The Black Company:				From the Files of Garrett
P.I.
	The Books of the North			Sweet Silver Blues (1987)
	The Black Company (1984)		Bitter Gold Hearts (1988)
	Shadows Linger (1984)			Cold Copper Tears (1988)
	The White Rose (1985)			Old Tin Sorrows (1989)
						Dread Brass Shadows (1990)
	The Silver Spike (1989)			Red Iron Nights (1991)
						Deadly Quicksilver Lies
(1994)
	The Books of the South			Petty Pewter Gods (1995)
	Shadow Games (1989)			Faded Steel Heat (1999)
	Dreams of Steel (1990)
						Omnibus
	Glittering Stone				The Garrett Files
(1988)
	Bleak Seasons (1996)
	She Is the Darkness (1997)
	Water Sleeps (1998)
	Soldiers Live (2000)

	Anthologies
	The Annals of the Black Company (1986)

   The Haunting Dread Empire			The Starfishers Trilogy
	Prequels					Shadowline (1982)
	The Fire in His Hands (1984)		Starfishers (1982)
	With Mercy Towards None (1985)		Star's End (1982)

	The Dread Empire Trilogy			Passage at Arms
(1985)
	A Shadow of All Night Falling (1979)
	October's Baby (1980)
	All Darkness Met (1980)

	Sequels
	Reap the East Wind (1987)
	An Ill Fate Marshalling (1988)

	Future works
	A Path to Coldness of the Heart
	The Cruel Storm

   The Darkwar Trilogy			Others
	Doomstalker (1985)		The Swap Academy (1970)
	Warlock	 (1985)			The Heirs of Babylon (1972)
	Ceremony (1986)			The Swordbearer (1982)
					A Matter of Time (1985)
					The Dragon Never Sleeps (1988)
					The Tower of Fear (1989)
					Sung in Blood (1990)

   Short Stories
	???

Cook has said the planned Dread Empire books are "unlikely to appear."
According to later reports, this might be viewed as an understatement.


Q: What's Glen's best book?

A: Depends on who you ask.  Some love _The Tower of Fear_, others favor _The
Dragon Never Sleeps_, still more would say _The Black Company_.  One thing's
for certain, nobody ever recommends _The Swap Academy_.


Q: Is Glen planning on writing any more...

Dread Empire books?
A: Highly unlikely.  The originals sold so poorly that it is apparently not
feasible for him to write any more, though he has said he has plots for
further books. (Harold Burns)

Black Company books?
A: Also not likely.  Glen has said he's hanging it up after _Soldiers Live_.

Swordbearer books?
A: He did, reportedly.  He didn't like it.

Garrett books?
A: ???


Q: To whom should I write to encourage the publication of more Dread Empire
stories?

A: Cook's editor may or may not be Patrick Nielsen Hayden (???)
     Tor Books
     175 Fifth Avenue
     New York City, NY  10010


BC QUESTIONS:

The "Black Company" series is Cook's most popular, without a doubt.

Q: What is Tonk?

A: A card game played by mercenaries of the Black Company throughout the
series to pass the time.  The following sites have versions of the rules:

http://www.gamecabinet.com/rules/Tonk.html
http://www.bsfs.org/bsfstonk.htm


Q: Do any maps exist of the world of the Black Company novels?

A: Cook has never made any official maps, and has indicated he will never do
so.  Some fan representations can be found at:

http://www.cofc.edu/~wraggj/blackco/

http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/Images/MapNorth.GIF
http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/Images/MapSouth.GIF
http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/Images/MapShadow.GIF


Q: Are the games "Myth: The Fallen Lords" and "Myth II: Soulblighter" based
on the Black Company novels?

A: Not officially, though the similarities between the two are enough to put
that whole Lincoln-Kennedy thing to shame.  "Eldon the Seer" has a fine page
dedicated to just this topic.  You can find it here:

http://members.tripod.com/~blackco/myth-n-bc.html


Q: What's Croaker's real name?

A: Marion Morrison.  Kidding.  It's never stated.
--------

 There, told you it was rough.  Obviously since there isn't (to my
knowledge) a Usenet newsgroup devoted to Cook there's no need to post things
about spam, but I'm considering including a section on e-mail etiquette and
off-topic posts.  Please e-mail me privately with any suggestions.  I'm
especially open to anything people feel should be included about the other
series, the debate over naming, and what the deal is with the attempt to
name Lady, since I've only read _The White Rose_ once (and that was several
years ago) and it's the only BC book I don't own.

 Pete

[1] I'll have to check my parents' old yearbooks, as they attended Mizzou at
roughly the same time Cook would've.

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From: Craig Dutton <craigld@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) The FAQ - V. 0.1
Date: 14 Aug 2000 18:26:05 -0700 (PDT)

--- "Vonder Haar, Peter C." <Peter.VonderHaar@bakerhughes.com> wrote:
You may want to include a reference that BTRC [the Blacksburg Tactical Research
Center], makers of CORPS, had attempted to get a Black Company licence, but
that that deal fell through.

From their site at: http://www.btrc.net/  :

"08-21-1996
A Black Company setting for CORPS is looking more and more unlikely (sigh). The
license holders, while still expressing interest, have not shown that interest
by bothering to return my email and phone calls. If you are a fan of this
series and want to see a game adaptation, email me and them (see email address
below)."


This is all I know about that story.



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From: Eric Herrmann <shpshftr@xmission.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) The FAQ - V. 0.1
Date: 14 Aug 2000 19:36:53 -0600

Peter,

> Little did I realize how much I *didn't* know about Glen Cook until I
> started doing my research for this.  Said research basically involved
> looking at the various web pages out there - primarily Eric's - sifting
> through the list archives, and copying other author FAQs' formats.
> Nonetheless, I have come up with a rough version of the FAQ.
> "Rough" being the operative word.

It's a great start.

> ------------
> The Glen Cook FAQ
> 
> Q: Who is this Glen Cook fellow anyway?
> 
> A: Glen Charles Cook was born in 1944 in New York City. He has lived in
> Columbus, Indiana; Rocklin, California; and Columbia, Missouri, where he
> attended the state university (Univeristy of Missouri)[1]. He attended the
> Clarion Writers Workshop in 1970, where he met his wife, Carol.  He is the
> author of, among others, the Black Company series, the Garrett, P.I. series,
> the Dread Empire series, the Starfishers trilogy, and the Darkwar trilogy.
> He is widely regarded by his fans as one of the most under-appreciated and
> unsung fantasy/sci-fi authors working today.

I think I'd drop the last sentence.

> Q: What other authors would you recommend for a fan of Cook's?
> 
> A: Many Cook readers look for authors that write with a gritty, realistic
> (for fantasy/sci-fi) feel similar to his.  Some names that have come up,
> repeatedly, on the Glen Cook Mailing List include: Steven Brust (Vlad Taltos
> series), Laurel Hamilton (Anita Blake series), David Gemmell (Drenai
> series), George R. Martin, David Drake, MS Rohan (Winter of the World
> series, Northworld trilogy), Iain M. Banks, Michael Moorcock (Elric of
> Melnibone series), Robert Jordan (Wheel of Time series).
> This is by no means an exhaustive list.

I don't think this has second priority.

> Q: Where can I find a copy of Dread Empire/Starfishers/Darkwar books?
> 
> A: Cook's works are often popping up on different auction sites and book
> search pages.  Here are a few places to look:
> 
> EBay - http://www.ebay.com
> ABE Books - http://www.abebooks.com
> Alibris.com - http://www.alibris.com
> Bibliofind - http://www.bibliofind.com
> Barnes and Noble http://www.bn.com
> The Dragon Never Sleeps (see below)
> 
> Occasionally, members of the mailing list have extras they are willing to
> sell/trade for.

Put this after the Bibliography.

> Q: What is this mailing list you keep referring to?
> 
> A: You can sign up for the Glen Cook Mailing List at
> mailto:majordomo@xmission.com?body=subscribe%20GlenCook-Fans
> 

I'd rather it was called the Glen Cook Fans mailing list.

> Q; What are some good web sites devoted to Glen Cook?
> 
> A: There are several.
> 
> The Glen Cook Fan Page - http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Home.html
> The Black Company Homepage - http://www.shout.net/~bburgner/blackco.html
> Eldon the Seer's Black Company Outpost -
> http://members.tripod.com/~blackco/
> Tor - Cook's publisher - http://www.tor.com/tor.html
> 
> A much more comprehensive list can be found at
> http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Links.html

There is really only one good site devoted to Glen Cook. <G>

> Q: Is it true Cook works in an auto plant?
> 
> A: Mr. Cook used to work in a GM light truck plant in St. Louis.  He has
> since retired.
> 
> 
> Q: Did Cook ever serve in the military?
> 
> A: ???

See the article "Pseudo Interview" in the Biography section of the site.

> Q: How can I contact him?  Does he have an e-mail address?
> 
> A: It is pretty widely acknowledged that Glen does not have an e-mail
> address and, in fact, is not very enamored of computers in general.
> The Dragon Never Sleeps
> 4106 Flora Place
> St. Louis, MO  63310
> 
> Note that this is not a physical store to visit, per se, but a private
> service run by Cook for people seeking specific books.

Glen used to hand out a FAQ from his huckster's table nearly ten years ago
(I think around '92). Very little is relevant now except for these few
paragraphs:

"The volume of mail received makes it impossible to respond to each letter
personally. I hope this can answer your questions."

"I have no control over cover art."

"There will be no sequel to (take your pick) A MATTER OF TIME, THE
SWORDBEARER, THE DRAGON NEVER SLEEPS, TOWER OF FEAR, PASSAGE AT ARMS, THE
STARFISHERS TRILOGY. Sever more titles in the Dread Empire were planned at
one time but lack of commercial success makes it unlikely any will get
written."

"Matters of courtesy to recall when writing your favorite authors. There is
one of him and many of you. It takes away from writing to answer letters. It
costs money to answer letters when you do not include a Stamped
Self-Addressed Envelope. Only a handful of writers make any money writing."

And the zip code is wrong. It should be 63110.

> Q: Is Glen planning on writing any more...
> 
> Dread Empire books?
> A: Highly unlikely.  The originals sold so poorly that it is apparently not
> feasible for him to write any more, though he has said he has plots for
> further books. (Harold Burns)
> 
> Black Company books?
> A: Also not likely.  Glen has said he's hanging it up after _Soldiers Live_.
> 
> Swordbearer books?
> A: He did, reportedly.  He didn't like it.
> 
> Garrett books?
> A: ???

Make sure all the series and singles are listed here. More here from the
"Psuedo Interview."

I think the only series that has a life is Garrett with a chance of Black
Company.

> Q: To whom should I write to encourage the publication of more Dread Empire
> stories?
> 
> A: Cook's editor may or may not be Patrick Nielsen Hayden (???)
> Tor Books
> 175 Fifth Avenue
> New York City, NY  10010

I'm not sure the PNH is the right person. I'd leave this out for now.

> BC QUESTIONS:
> 

Don't forget:
    Who are the taken? Who's the fourth female Taken?

    What are the names of the four Senjak Sisters?



-- 
Eric Herrmann
<shpshftr@xmission.com>


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Craig Dutton <craigld@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) newbie talks about Cook and the Black Company
Date: 14 Aug 2000 19:07:38 -0700 (PDT)

--- Bill Acuff <wacuff@edge.net> wrote:
> By the way, anybody know where I can score a decent copy of any of the
> following (especially the Dread Empire books and Doomstalker)?
>
> October's Baby, All Darkness Met, An Ill Fate Marshalling, Passage At Arms,
> Doomstalker,  The Dragon Never Sleeps, The Heirs of Babylon, A Matter of
> Time, Sung in Blood, The Swap Academy.

Check the online auction sites.  Warning: I've seen the Dread Empire Trilogy go
for $39 in paperback as a set on ebay.

And Bookfinder.com has a long list that includes Dragon and Doomstalker, among
many others.  Again, prices can get high [With Mercy towards none goes for
$25-$30 US, Stars' End $29-$35, Ill Fate $7-$15, Dragon Never Sleeps at
$15-$20].


> Once I score copies of these, I'll have all of Glen's novels except for the
> Garrett stuff. I haven't tried any of that yet--maybe I will one of these
> days.

I've been able to get everything [including the Garrett stuff] but Sung in
Blood and the Swap Academy, plus some of the short fiction, all at decent
prices.  The key is to be persistent, and stop regularly at used bookstores,
flea markets, etc.  It only took me 5 years to come across a copy of With Mercy
Towards None. :-(

The 'net makes it easier, especially if you're impatient and have the money to
spend.

I don't have the money, or I'd be buying that W&S instead of telling people
about it.

Craig
> 
> Enough for now.
> 
> L8r,
> 
> Bill Acuff
> wacuff@edge.net


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From: Steve Harris <harrissg@slu.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Soldiers Live discussion (***SPOILERS*** from all
Date: 14 Aug 2000 22:04:35 -0500

Bill, et al.,



[MORE SPOILER]




Yes, there is quite a bit of gratuitous lopping off of major characters
in SL (my nomination for most unnecessary death: the prince).

Sloppy writing?  Making sure of no more sequels?  I don't think so.

Remember the title (and catch-phrase):  Soldiers live.  And wonder why.

This is a book about survivor's guilt.  And so Cook heaps it on.  I
almost wonder that Lady didn't join the Reaper's grim army; but I guess
that would have made it just maudlin.  

That is what gives the entire Glittering Stone set its poignance; what
puts the emotional capstone in the BC saga:  Croaker sees one after
another of his comrades, old and new, die--some gloriously, some
necessarily, some inevitably, but too damned many just for being stupid
at the wrong time (the multiple SL debacles).  It's the fortunes of war;
and for Croaker, that means the fortunes of life.

Croaker lives.

And wonders why.


Steve

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From: "Bill Acuff" <wacuff@edge.net>
Subject: (glencook-fans) More Black Company discussion (no spoilers)
Date: 14 Aug 2000 22:28:05 -0500

Win wrote:

> Welcome to the list, Bill. You have posted some very
> interesting comments.

Thank you.

> You might want to look for the
> White Company by Arthur Conan Doyle. It is about a
> free company during the Hundred Years War.
> Someone posted the Gutenburg link a while back, but
> I don't have the URL.

You're serious? The *White* Company? . . . . Yes, I checked around on the
'net and of course you are. Sir Conan Doyle, the author of the Sherlock
Holmes mysteries, even considers this book to be his finest work, according
to one web site. Man, that's something. The book is still available on
Amazon.com, and a review there mentions the book describing the "harsher
realities of medieval war." So it is likely that a book written in the
1800s, and based on historical events, could be at least somewhat
responsible for Cook's series--even the very *name* of it? Anybody ever
approach Glen with this? He's a military history buff, right? Makes sense to
me.

The British history book I am using says the following about livery and
maintenance during the Hundred Years War: "This was part of a wide-spread
pattern of 'bastard feudalism,' in which many great lords had retainers by
the hundreds or even thousands, held in line by pay instead of the land
tenure and lord-vassal relationship of normal feudalism. Most numerous among
these retainers were the fighting men, recipients of 'livery and
maintenance' from the lord, who thus had a regular little standing army of
his own, which wore his livery with his particular device, or coat of arms,
and which was supported in his pay or protected in case of trouble."

Incredibly interesting stuff! Even a direct historical influence for
Soulcatcher's badge!

> As far as finding old books, I haven't had much luck
> in Nashville (I noticed the email address...and as a
> former Edge employee, it stuck out like a very sore thumb).

Yeah, you had me going for a second ("How does he know where I live?"
<grin>). The only luck I've had at all is scouring the 'net for used books
(ABE search, for instance).

> By the way, your quote is originally from Groucho Marx.

Right you are again, and thanks so much. The mag I got that out of didn't
specify. I checked on the 'net but couldn't find exactly when, or, more
importantly, *where* he said this, though. Any ideas?

L8r,

Bill Acuff
wacuff@edge.net

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. And inside of a dog, it's
too dark to read." - Groucho Marx.


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From: Lee Childs <childsl@earthlink.net>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Black Company Favorites
Date: 14 Aug 2000 21:05:27 -0700

1. Black Company
2. Shadows Linger & Silver Spike
3. White Rose, Soldiers Live

Lee Childs


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From: Malik Coates <malikcoates@flashmail.com>
Subject: (glencook-fans) deaths in SOLDIERS LIVE
Date: 14 Aug 2000 21:04:34 -0700

SPOILERS for SOLDIERS LIVE

-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-

The title could have come from the phrase, "A few soldiers live, but
most die and don't even get a one line mention in the annals."



A few of the highlight deaths in this book:

Goblin, blown to bits.
Mogaba, killed by giant duck.
The prince, just for being too close to the action.
Sleepy, crispy fried critter.
Narayan, a just end for the guy i think.
The Daughter of Night, killed by ennui.
And many many more.

There were even a couple deaths that really should have happened, like
Lady accidentally touching Catcher in the Ice.  What would lady have
said after that? "Wooops, Sorry 'bout that." and really Longshadow
should have been killed before they could repair the gate.  Having
Shadows conquer the world would have really been ending the series with
a bang.  I get the sense that Mr. Cook debated with himself for while on
if Longshadow should die or not.


My question is with so many great endings, which is your favorite?  I
think Mogaba's death really stands out.  I wanted it to be one of the
old crew that finally took this guy out, but oh well.  I just love
Coaker's description of Mogaba's thoughts.  I think Croaker liked Mogaba
a lot more than he liked most of the guys in the company.

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From: "Scott Vandenberg" <svandenb@mailer.fsu.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Favorite BC book
Date: 15 Aug 2000 08:23:20 -0400

The Dragon Never sleeps is his best work by far.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2000 12:52 PM


> i think that _the white rose_ is my favorite black company book. the
> juxtaposition of the dominator's resurgence with the mystery letters
coming
> from the barrowland (i just love 'views into the past' and similar plot
> devices) and the way the two plotlines converged was just masterful. that,
> combined with the denouement involving the dominator, the lady, the white
> rose and the near total destruction of the company made for a book that's
> hard to beat.
>
> although if you were asking about cook novels in general, you can't beat
> _the dragon never sleeps_...
>
> (begging for argument)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Glenn Hoetker [mailto:ghoetker@umich.edu]
> Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2000 10:26 AM
> To: Glen Cook Fans
> Subject: (glencook-fans) Favorite BC book
>
>
> Having just finished SL (much to the detriment of my dissertation!), I was
> curious what _single_ BC book was people's favorite and why--now that it
> appears Glen has given us the whole set.  Anyone have an opinion they'd be
> willing to share (good bet in this group!)?
>
> For myself, I still the think the book that hooked me on the whole thing,
> The Black Company, is the winner.  I like that the villians (and heroes!)
> are still villianous and mysterious--Raven is still a bad-a**, Lady is
> humanizing but not yet humanized, Soulcatcher is still somewhat distant,
> Limper still sane enough to be a threat and the Dominator a scary beast in
> the ground.  Even more peripheral characters, like Harding and Whisper,
have
> a hardness and resiliance I didn't find as consistently in the subsequent
> books.  Since the Company is still together, the narrative is coherent and
> continuous, which I like (personal taste).  Less feeling of the Company as
a
> pawn of greater celestial powers.  And, much as I respect Cook for letting
> his characters age, decay and even die, several of my favorite characters
> (One-Eye and Goblin, mainly) are more fun when they are still spry.
>
> That said, I love the all, even Silver Spike.
>
> Others?
> -----
> Glenn Hoetker
> ghoetker@umich.edu
> PhD Candidate, International Business &
> Corporate Strategy
> University of Michigan Business School
>
>
> =======================================================================
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>
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From: "Scott Vandenberg" <svandenb@mailer.fsu.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) newbie talks about Cook and the Black Company
Date: 15 Aug 2000 08:35:26 -0400

I also have all of those titles, except Swap Acadamy and Sung In Blood
 which was a convention release only and very rare, or so I am told).  My
best luck was at www.abebooks.com and of course ebay.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2000 10:07 PM


> --- Bill Acuff <wacuff@edge.net> wrote:
> > By the way, anybody know where I can score a decent copy of any of the
> > following (especially the Dread Empire books and Doomstalker)?
> >
> > October's Baby, All Darkness Met, An Ill Fate Marshalling, Passage At
Arms,
> > Doomstalker,  The Dragon Never Sleeps, The Heirs of Babylon, A Matter of
> > Time, Sung in Blood, The Swap Academy.
>
> Check the online auction sites.  Warning: I've seen the Dread Empire
Trilogy go
> for $39 in paperback as a set on ebay.
>
> And Bookfinder.com has a long list that includes Dragon and Doomstalker,
among
> many others.  Again, prices can get high [With Mercy towards none goes for
> $25-$30 US, Stars' End $29-$35, Ill Fate $7-$15, Dragon Never Sleeps at
> $15-$20].
>
>
> > Once I score copies of these, I'll have all of Glen's novels except for
the
> > Garrett stuff. I haven't tried any of that yet--maybe I will one of
these
> > days.
>
> I've been able to get everything [including the Garrett stuff] but Sung in
> Blood and the Swap Academy, plus some of the short fiction, all at decent
> prices.  The key is to be persistent, and stop regularly at used
bookstores,
> flea markets, etc.  It only took me 5 years to come across a copy of With
Mercy
> Towards None. :-(
>
> The 'net makes it easier, especially if you're impatient and have the
money to
> spend.
>
> I don't have the money, or I'd be buying that W&S instead of telling
people
> about it.
>
> Craig
> >
> > Enough for now.
> >
> > L8r,
> >
> > Bill Acuff
> > wacuff@edge.net
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
> http://mail.yahoo.com/
>
> =======================================================================
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>


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From: "Scott Vandenberg" <svandenb@mailer.fsu.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Soldiers Live discussion (***SPOILERS*** from allofCook's BC novels)
Date: 15 Aug 2000 08:38:09 -0400

Well, you have to leave room for the books of the east and west ( all ten of
my fingers are crossed as I type this).
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2000 11:04 PM
allofCook's BC novels)


> Bill, et al.,
>
>
>
> [MORE SPOILER]
>
>
>
>
> Yes, there is quite a bit of gratuitous lopping off of major characters
> in SL (my nomination for most unnecessary death: the prince).
>
> Sloppy writing?  Making sure of no more sequels?  I don't think so.
>
> Remember the title (and catch-phrase):  Soldiers live.  And wonder why.
>
> This is a book about survivor's guilt.  And so Cook heaps it on.  I
> almost wonder that Lady didn't join the Reaper's grim army; but I guess
> that would have made it just maudlin.
>
> That is what gives the entire Glittering Stone set its poignance; what
> puts the emotional capstone in the BC saga:  Croaker sees one after
> another of his comrades, old and new, die--some gloriously, some
> necessarily, some inevitably, but too damned many just for being stupid
> at the wrong time (the multiple SL debacles).  It's the fortunes of war;
> and for Croaker, that means the fortunes of life.
>
> Croaker lives.
>
> And wonders why.
>
>
> Steve
>
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From: Matthew Roche <rocheml@cerebusnm.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) newbie talks about Cook and the Black Company
Date: 15 Aug 2000 06:47:24 -0600

i'm in the same situation. i used to travel a lot for business and had the
opportunity to visit used book stores all across the country. after about
three years of that i had all but 12 (apart from the swap academy and sung
in blood) books and was able to find those online in about a month. i also
had excellent luck at the amazon.com zshops, particularly with a golden,
colorado bookseller called 'just books.' i actually gave the owner (judy at
justbooks@aol.com) a list of books i was missing and she would email me when
she found them. her prices were usually about half of what you'd find at
abebooks or ebay (i personally hate ebay, so i'm biased here...) and she was
very pleasant.

(i am in no way affiliated with this store. i just realized that this reads
like a sales pitch...)

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2000 8:35 AM
Company


I also have all of those titles, except Swap Acadamy and Sung In Blood
 which was a convention release only and very rare, or so I am told).  My
best luck was at www.abebooks.com and of course ebay.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2000 10:07 PM


> --- Bill Acuff <wacuff@edge.net> wrote:
> > By the way, anybody know where I can score a decent copy of any of the
> > following (especially the Dread Empire books and Doomstalker)?
> >
> > October's Baby, All Darkness Met, An Ill Fate Marshalling, Passage At
Arms,
> > Doomstalker,  The Dragon Never Sleeps, The Heirs of Babylon, A Matter of
> > Time, Sung in Blood, The Swap Academy.
>
> Check the online auction sites.  Warning: I've seen the Dread Empire
Trilogy go
> for $39 in paperback as a set on ebay.
>
> And Bookfinder.com has a long list that includes Dragon and Doomstalker,
among
> many others.  Again, prices can get high [With Mercy towards none goes for
> $25-$30 US, Stars' End $29-$35, Ill Fate $7-$15, Dragon Never Sleeps at
> $15-$20].
>
>
> > Once I score copies of these, I'll have all of Glen's novels except for
the
> > Garrett stuff. I haven't tried any of that yet--maybe I will one of
these
> > days.
>
> I've been able to get everything [including the Garrett stuff] but Sung in
> Blood and the Swap Academy, plus some of the short fiction, all at decent
> prices.  The key is to be persistent, and stop regularly at used
bookstores,
> flea markets, etc.  It only took me 5 years to come across a copy of With
Mercy
> Towards None. :-(
>
> The 'net makes it easier, especially if you're impatient and have the
money to
> spend.
>
> I don't have the money, or I'd be buying that W&S instead of telling
people
> about it.
>
> Craig
> >
> > Enough for now.
> >
> > L8r,
> >
> > Bill Acuff
> > wacuff@edge.net
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
> http://mail.yahoo.com/
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>


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From: Richard Chilton <rchilton@auracom.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) newbie talks about Cook and the Black Company
Date: 15 Aug 2000 13:16:53 -0300

Note - spoilers for The Silver Spike




Bill Acuff wrote:
> 
> Cook sure does a good job of making us like "bad" characters, doesn't he?

I have a different point of view here.  Cook does a great job of using
greys and getting us to root for the greyish-black guys.

> Raven, all by himself, is worthy of an entire series of novels, IMO. I read

Look at Raven:
When we first meet him he kills his wife and two of her friends in cold
blood.  He has a few other people to kill before he can join up.  He's
an emotionless killing machine, a real bad-ass.
Then he risks his life (and the company) to rescue a little girl who's
being raped.  Nothing to gain, just a moral stand.  By The Silver Spike
he's gone from emotionless killing machine to a complete character with
understandable motivations.  The way he winces when his son dismisses
him in The Silver Spike - combined with the look on his face when he
kills his wife in The Black Company - makes him realer than most
characters.  He never becomes a good guy, but you feel for him.

Or Crocker in The Black Company - a guy who has no problem hanging out
with Mercy; who wanders the field filled with raping, looting, and basic
slaughter after the Amazon camp is taken without batting an eye; who
(after countless battlefields) still is upset to see dead children; and
who looks out for Darling when Raven isn't around.
No one can call Crocker a good guy based on his actions in The Black
Company, but you can't really call him a bad guy either.

Or - well, any bad character.  If they stay around long enough we learn
things about them that turn them from bad guys to greyish-black at
worse.  The Limper is being malipulated by everyone.  Soulcatcher still
has those issues with her sister.  The Lady just wanted to build an
empire and be left along.  Even the 'bad' guys in the later books are
rounded - the royal family is against the company because they see their
position as self defense; the shadow masters are worried (in some cases
scaried out of their minds) about the shadows and need a power base to
contain them; the stranglers are doing the will of their goddess; the
Daughter of Darkness is just a pawn; etc.

> As an amateur writer ("amateur" because I haven't actually sold anything,
> "writer" because I've actually completed a few things) I appreciate
> creativity. And I think for me the ultimate writing experience would be to
> create an entire world (geography, people, history, social and economic and
> cultural issues, etc) out of cloth and populate it with interesting people
> doing very interesting things--just like Glen has done many times.
> 

Actually, Cook didn't do that - create the entire world that is.  All
he's made is what he needs and there are plently of blank spots left. 
At least that's the impression given when people have asked him
questions at conventions and he'd replied "I don't know" (or words to
that effect).
There are two main styles of world creation.  One is to do the whole
world at the start (or at least sometime), and the other is to do just
what you need and leave the rest blank.  Tolken did all of middle earth,
Cook has left (nameless world of the Black Company) blank until he
needed it.

Richard

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From: Richard Chilton <rchilton@auracom.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) group protagonists
Date: 15 Aug 2000 13:17:01 -0300

Steve Harris wrote:
> 
> Hi, all,
> 
> Being at a university has its advantages :)
> 
> Today I was talking with an English professor friend of mine, so I
> brought up the subject matter I've raised:  What literary precedents are
> there to having, as moral center or protagonist of a story, a group of
> changing people?
> 

Have you suggested The Black Company to him?  Sci-fi and Fantasy often
gets over looked by academics (look at how much trouble Lovecraft is
still having being taken seriously), and I'd love to see a literary
analyse of The Black Company.  It would definately be a new point of
view.

> He immediately suggested two:
> 
> _Thin Red Line_ by James Jones (author of _From Here to Eternity_)

I've seen the movie - which probably butchered the book.

> _White Jacket_ by Herman Melville
> 
> The first is about an army company; the second about a ship's company.
> I think it no accident that miliarty or quasi-military novels are the
> only antecedents he could think of to the Black Company.
> 

Military situations are usually the only ones where you find a group
working together for a long period of time surrounded by events
interesting enough to write about.  I'm having problems thinking about
any other 'unit' that could be written about.  Quasi-military groups
(like a ship's crew) are the only thing that comes to mind.

Richard

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From: "PrimalChrome" <chrome@wwisp.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) anti-heroes....the Company
Date: 15 Aug 2000 11:45:00 -0500

I recently introduced "The Black Company" to a local book club that I'm
involved in.  The responses were mixed, but all seemed to revolve around
exactly what you're covering here.  (I'm simplifying the comments and
leaving out some of the off-topic comments.)

The Pro-BC crowd - We liked the gritty realism.  We liked the fact that the
characters were human and had flaws and even some of the enemies had their
human traits.

The Anti-BC crowd - There isn't a white knight.  I just couldn't find anyone
to root for.  I couldn't feel sorry for Croaker when he was whining about
XXX.


Seems that there are a lot of readers out there that are really dependent on
having a white knight to try to identify with, rather than characters with
more realistic motivations.  I wonder if this isn't a American Culture
(failures/imperfections != hero) thing....any readers from across the pond
have any comments???  This was a bit of an eye opener for me as my group of
gaming/roleplay/reading friends all enjoy the Black Company.  Then again,
they're a pretty nasty bunch full of base cunning when it comes to getting a
job done.


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2000 11:16 AM


Note - spoilers for The Silver Spike

Look at Raven:
When we first meet him he kills his wife and two of her friends in cold
blood.  He has a few other people to kill before he can join up.  He's
an emotionless killing machine, a real bad-ass.
Then he risks his life (and the company) to rescue a little girl who's
being raped.  Nothing to gain, just a moral stand.  By The Silver Spike
he's gone from emotionless killing machine to a complete character with
understandable motivations.  The way he winces when his son dismisses
him in The Silver Spike - combined with the look on his face when he
kills his wife in The Black Company - makes him realer than most
characters.  He never becomes a good guy, but you feel for him.

Or Crocker in The Black Company - a guy who has no problem hanging out
with Mercy; who wanders the field filled with raping, looting, and basic
slaughter after the Amazon camp is taken without batting an eye; who
(after countless battlefields) still is upset to see dead children; and
who looks out for Darling when Raven isn't around.
No one can call Crocker a good guy based on his actions in The Black
Company, but you can't really call him a bad guy either.

Or - well, any bad character.  If they stay around long enough we learn
things about them that turn them from bad guys to greyish-black at
worse.  The Limper is being malipulated by everyone.  Soulcatcher still
has those issues with her sister.  The Lady just wanted to build an
empire and be left along.  Even the 'bad' guys in the later books are
rounded - the royal family is against the company because they see their
position as self defense; the shadow masters are worried (in some cases
scaried out of their minds) about the shadows and need a power base to
contain them; the stranglers are doing the will of their goddess; the
Daughter of Darkness is just a pawn; etc.



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From: "Sam Felice" <SFelice@getty.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) group protagonists
Date: 15 Aug 2000 09:49:01 -0700

> Today I was talking with an English professor friend of mine, so I
> brought up the subject matter I've raised:  What literary precedents are
> there to having, as moral center or protagonist of a story, a group of
> changing people?
>=20
> He immediately suggested two:
>=20
> _Thin Red Line_ by James Jones (author of _From Here to Eternity_)
> _White Jacket_ by Herman Melville

While I've never read either book, I have seen The Thin Red Line in it's =
recent movie adaptation.  I think it's interesting that one of the things =
that I very much disliked about the story was the fact that characters =
would come and go with no apparent explanation.  I realize that this is a =
movie about war, and that people get transferred and/or killed and you =
never hear from them again all the time.  But when you're watching a movie =
or reading a book, you like to know what happens with any character that =
could be considered a protagonist, or even part of a group protagonist.

I think that one of the things that makes the Black Company style group =
protagonist work is that, because the books are written from the annalist =
POV, that all of the dead and missing are "accounted for" by the annalist. =
 It's the annalists job to note the names of the dead and/or presumed =
dead.  The annalist has an interest in knowing the fate of his friends (as =
well as his enemies) and so is able to satisfy OUR interest in knowing =
their fate. =20

In contrast, with a movie like Thin Red Line, we don't have anybody "on =
the inside" who is concerned about finding out what happened to so-and-so. =
 It's a war, and everybody knows that they may wake up one day and get =
transferred to a new company.  Everybody knows that you get sent off by =
one Captain, and when you come back, you've got a new Captain with no =
explanation of what happened to the old one.  And while it's probably more =
realistic (at least in the situation where there's nobody "on the inside" =
concerned with giving us the low-down), it's also very annoying, at least =
to me personally.

So, even though there are parallels that can be drawn between the 'group =
protagonist' style of writing, I'd say there are ways in which it works =
(for me, anyway) and ways that it definately doesn't (again, personal =
opinion).

I'd also, as an aside, mention that the changing group dynamic may be the =
one of the reasons that the books of the North are more popular than the =
books of the South.  Even though there were people who didn't make it out =
of the North, there was a certain core membership to the company that we =
started out with, and ended up with.  Silent, Goblin, One-eye, Croaker, =
Raven, the Lieutennant, and several others.  They gave the changing group =
a feeling of continuity. =20

When a large chunk of that core group left us, we begin to feel like =
Croaker does.  Like everything is changed, most of the faces around are =
different from those he started his journey with.  He's now the alien =
rather than the familiar.  And I think that in the context of the books, =
it works very well.  It gives us a better feel for how the company has =
worked for 400 years.  Faces come and go. The composition of the company =
changes, even while the company goes on.  The old timers teach the new =
guys how the company works, and those new guys go on to become the old =
timers and eventually teach the next generation how to carry on the =
company traditions.  It's the never-ending cycle of which we were witness =
to a specific part.  And I think that timelessness is what gives the Black =
Company books the (I hate to say gritty because that's what everyone says, =
but...) gritty realism that we get.  We know nobody lives forever.  =
Soldiers Live.  And wonder why.



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From: "Warner, Jon" <Jon.Warner@ps.net>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) group protagonists
Date: 15 Aug 2000 12:00:23 -0500

Sam wrote:
"I'd also, as an aside, mention that the changing group dynamic may be the
one of the reasons that the books of the North are more popular than the
books of the South.  Even though there were people who didn't make it out of
the North, there was a certain core membership to the company that we
started out with, and ended up with.  Silent, Goblin, One-eye, Croaker,
Raven, the Lieutenant, and several others.  They gave the changing group a
feeling of continuity."

	I think the analyst's readings (which we saw quite a bit of in the
North) were key to the group dynamic.  I don't recall the analyst doing too
many readings in the South, but perhaps my memory is going out on me.  Does
anyone remember the Readings being done much in the South?  As an
interesting side line, this technique was used extensively by the French
Foreign Legion.

Jonathan

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sam Felice [mailto:SFelice@getty.edu]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2000 10:49 AM
> To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) group protagonists
> 
> 
> > Today I was talking with an English professor friend of mine, so I
> > brought up the subject matter I've raised:  What literary 
> precedents are
> > there to having, as moral center or protagonist of a story, 
> a group of
> > changing people?
> > 
> > He immediately suggested two:
> > 
> > _Thin Red Line_ by James Jones (author of _From Here to Eternity_)
> > _White Jacket_ by Herman Melville
> 
> While I've never read either book, I have seen The Thin Red 
> Line in it's recent movie adaptation.  I think it's 
> interesting that one of the things that I very much disliked 
> about the story was the fact that characters would come and 
> go with no apparent explanation.  I realize that this is a 
> movie about war, and that people get transferred and/or 
> killed and you never hear from them again all the time.  But 
> when you're watching a movie or reading a book, you like to 
> know what happens with any character that could be considered 
> a protagonist, or even part of a group protagonist.
> 
> I think that one of the things that makes the Black Company 
> style group protagonist work is that, because the books are 
> written from the annalist POV, that all of the dead and 
> missing are "accounted for" by the annalist.  It's the 
> annalists job to note the names of the dead and/or presumed 
> dead.  The annalist has an interest in knowing the fate of 
> his friends (as well as his enemies) and so is able to 
> satisfy OUR interest in knowing their fate.  
> 
> In contrast, with a movie like Thin Red Line, we don't have 
> anybody "on the inside" who is concerned about finding out 
> what happened to so-and-so.  It's a war, and everybody knows 
> that they may wake up one day and get transferred to a new 
> company.  Everybody knows that you get sent off by one 
> Captain, and when you come back, you've got a new Captain 
> with no explanation of what happened to the old one.  And 
> while it's probably more realistic (at least in the situation 
> where there's nobody "on the inside" concerned with giving us 
> the low-down), it's also very annoying, at least to me personally.
> 
> So, even though there are parallels that can be drawn between 
> the 'group protagonist' style of writing, I'd say there are 
> ways in which it works (for me, anyway) and ways that it 
> definitely doesn't (again, personal opinion).
> 
> I'd also, as an aside, mention that the changing group 
> dynamic may be the one of the reasons that the books of the 
> North are more popular than the books of the South.  Even 
> though there were people who didn't make it out of the North, 
> there was a certain core membership to the company that we 
> started out with, and ended up with.  Silent, Goblin, 
> One-eye, Croaker, Raven, the Lieutenant, and several others. 
>  They gave the changing group a feeling of continuity.  
> 
> When a large chunk of that core group left us, we begin to 
> feel like Croaker does.  Like everything is changed, most of 
> the faces around are different from those he started his 
> journey with.  He's now the alien rather than the familiar.  
> And I think that in the context of the books, it works very 
> well.  It gives us a better feel for how the company has 
> worked for 400 years.  Faces come and go. The composition of 
> the company changes, even while the company goes on.  The old 
> timers teach the new guys how the company works, and those 
> new guys go on to become the old timers and eventually teach 
> the next generation how to carry on the company traditions.  
> It's the never-ending cycle of which we were witness to a 
> specific part.  And I think that timelessness is what gives 
> the Black Company books the (I hate to say gritty because 
> that's what everyone says, but...) gritty realism that we 
> get.  We know nobody lives forever.  Soldiers Live.  And wonder why.
> 
> 
> 
> ==============================================================
> ======== To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of 
> this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
> 


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From: "Vonder Haar, Peter C." <Peter.VonderHaar@bakerhughes.com>
Subject: (glencook-fans) The FAQ V.0.2
Date: 15 Aug 2000 17:20:49 -0500

 In the grand tradition of online discussion, I'm going to drop the latest
incarnation of the FAQ in your laps and promptly go to Maine for a week.
E-mail me any feedback you have (I've already gotten and incorporated some
very good comments) and I'll jump back into it when I get back.
 Known Gaps:
 - I don't have the short stories in chronolgical order
 - It was suggested that I might want to include publisher info.  I don't
consider it a bad idea, just a time consuming one, especially since I'll
need to include publication info for the short stories.
 - I haven't checked out the latest archives to resolve who the 3rd female
taken was (though I suspect there was no actual resolution to this question)
 - After this e-mail, we may want to consider posting this on the web for
review, as opposed to me mailing it to everbody on the list every week or so
until it's finished.
 - No, it's still not in official FAQ format.  I think I've gotten the
questions into a more logical order, however.

 Thanks,
 Pete

------------
The Glen Cook FAQ

Q: Who is this Glen Cook fellow anyway?

A: Glen Charles Cook was born in 1944 in New York City. He has lived in
Columbus, Indiana; Rocklin, California; and Columbia, Missouri, where he
attended the state university (The University of Missouri). He attended the
Clarion Writers Workshop in 1970, where he met his wife, Carol.  He is the
author of, among others, the Black Company series; the Garrett, P.I. series;
the Dread Empire series; the Starfishers trilogy; and the Darkwar trilogy.
He has three children.

     From "Winter's Dreams"
(http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/Books/WntrDrms.html)
     "Glen's hobbies include stamp collecting, book collecting, and a
passing interest in military history. Usually Glen can be found behind a
huckster table at those conventions he attends. So, if you are in the
dealer's room buying one of his books, and the man behind the table asks if
you want it signed, chances are you just met him."


Q; What are some Glen Cook web sites?

A: There are several.  

 The most comprehensive site by far is Eric Herrmann's  Glen Cook Fan Page -
http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Home.html 
 The Black Company Homepage - http://www.shout.net/~bburgner/blackco.html 
 Eldon the Seer's Black Company Outpost -
http://members.tripod.com/~blackco/
 Ender's Black Company page - http://www.angelfire.com/bc/blackcompany/
 The Black Company Index - http://www.connectexpress.com/~rfr/bcompany1.html
 Tor - Cook's publisher - http://www.tor.com/tor.html 
 
 A much more exhaustive list can be found at
 http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Links.html 


Q: Is it true Cook works in an auto plant?

A: Mr. Cook used to work in a GM light truck plant in St. Louis.  He has
since retired.


Q: Did Cook ever serve in the military?

A: Short answer: Yes.

From "A (Pseudo) Interview with Glen Cook:"
(http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Biog2.html)
     "Eight years Navy and Navy Reserve with four years high school ROTC
beforehand. For a while I thought it was what I wanted to do with my life.
Served aboard destroyers and with a Marine Force Recon outfit as Forward
Fire Control Observer."

According to "Winter's Dreams," Cook served with the 3rd Marine Recon
Battalion.


Q: How can I contact him?  Does he have an e-mail address?

A: It is pretty widely acknowledged that Glen does not have an e-mail
address and, in fact, is not very enamored of computers in general.  A more
reliable method to get in touch with Glen is to attend a Con at which he's
running a table.  If that's out of the question, Glen has a mailing address
where fans can request autographs and hard to find books of his:

     The Dragon Never Sleeps
     4106 Flora Place
     St. Louis, MO  63110

	Note that this is not a physical store to visit, per se, but a
private service run by Glen for people seeking specific books.  It is also
not a pen-pal service.  As Glen reminds us: 
	"Matters of courtesy to recall when writing your favorite authors.
There is one of him and many of you. It takes away from writing to answer
letters. It costs money to answer letters when you do not include a Stamped
Self-Addressed Envelope. Only a handful of writers make any money writing."


Q: What has he written?

A: The Black Company:				From the Files of Garrett
P.I.
	The Books of the North			Sweet Silver Blues (1987)
	The Black Company (1984)		Bitter Gold Hearts (1988)
	Shadows Linger (1984)			Cold Copper Tears (1988)
	The White Rose (1985)			Old Tin Sorrows (1989)
						Dread Brass Shadows (1990)
	The Silver Spike (1989)			Red Iron Nights (1991)
						Deadly Quicksilver Lies
(1994)
	The Books of the South			Petty Pewter Gods (1995)
	Shadow Games (1989)			Faded Steel Heat (1999)
	Dreams of Steel (1990)
						Collections
Glittering Stone	The Garrett Files (containing Sweet Silver Blues,
Bitter Gold Hearts, and Cold Copper Tears) (1988)
	Bleak Seasons (1996)
	She Is the Darkness (1997)
	Water Sleeps (1998)
	Soldiers Live (2000)

	Collections
	The Annals of the Black Company 
(containing  The Black Company, 
Shadows Linger, and The White Rose)
 (1986)

   The Haunting Dread Empire			The Starfishers Trilogy
	Prequels					Shadowline (1982)
	The Fire in His Hands (1984)		Starfishers (1982)
	With Mercy Towards None (1985)		Star's End (1982)

	The Dread Empire Trilogy			Passage at Arms
(1985)
	A Shadow of All Night Falling (1979)
	October's Baby (1980)
	All Darkness Met (1980)

	Sequels
	Reap the East Wind (1987)
	An Ill Fate Marshalling (1988)

	Future works
	A Path to Coldness of the Heart
	The Cruel Storm
	
   The Darkwar Trilogy			Others
	Doomstalker (1985)		The Swap Academy (as Greg Stevens)
(1970)
	Warlock	 (1985)			The Heirs of Babylon (1972)
	Ceremony (1986)			The Swordbearer (1982)
					A Matter of Time (1985)
					The Dragon Never Sleeps (1988)
					The Tower of Fear (1989)
					Sung in Blood (1990)

   Short Stories
And Dragons in the Sky 
Appointment in Samarkand 
Call for the Dead 
Castle of Tears 
Darkwar 
Devil's Tooth, The 
Enemy Territory 
Filed Teeth 
Ghost Stalk 
In the Wind 
Nights of Deadful Silence, The 
Ponce 
Quiet Sea 
Raker 
Recruiter, The 
Seventh Fool, The 
Severed Heads 
Silverheels 
Soldier of an Empire Unacquainted With Defeat 
Song From A Forgotten Hill 
Sunrise 
Waiting Sea, The 
Winter's Dreams 
					
Cook has said the planned Dread Empire books are "unlikely to appear."
According to later reports, this might be viewed as an understatement.


Q: Where can I find a copy of...Dread Empire books?  Starfishers books?  

A: Cook's works are often popping up on different auction sites and book
search pages.  Here are a few places to look:

ABE Books -  http://www.abebooks.com
Alibris.com - http://www.alibris.com
Amazon - http://www.amazon.com 
eBay -  http://www.ebay.com
Bookfinder - http://www.bookfinder.com 
Bibliofind -  http://www.bibliofind.com
Barnes and Noble - http://www.bn.com 
Border's Books - http://www.borders.com 
The Dragon Never Sleeps (see below)...

Don't underestimate the power of used bookstores and flea markets.  If you
check regularly several titles may turn up.

Occasionally, members of the mailing list have extras they are willing to
sell/trade for.


Q: What is this mailing list you keep referring to?

A: You can sign up for the Glen Cook Fans Mailing List by sending a message
to majordomo@xmission.com with "subscribe glencook-fans" in the body.

If you prefer to receive messages in digest form, send a message to
majordomo@xmission.com 
with "subscribe glencook-fans-digest" in the body.


Q: What's Glen's best book?

A: Depends on who you ask.  Some love The Tower of Fear, others favor The
Dragon Never Sleeps, still more would say The Black Company.  One thing's
for certain, nobody ever recommends The Swap Academy.


Q: Why not?

A: The Swap Academy was an adult book written under a pseudonym (Greg
Stevens).  It
has nothing to do with his later work, and is included here only in the
interest of completeness.


Q: Is Glen planning on writing any more...

Dread Empire books?
A: Highly unlikely.  The originals sold so poorly that it is apparently not
feasible for him to write any more, though he has said he has plots for
further books.

Black Company books?
A: Possibly.   The ending of Soldiers Live (the latest Chronicle of the
Black Company) has inspired a healthy debate as to whether another book is
either possible or even desirable.  However, during a Q&A session at
Windycon in 1999, Glen was asked about the possibility of starting a new
fantasy series and admitted, "I had expected to begin, and I would start
something entirely new, but my agent and my editor both are pressuring me to
do more Black Company material because they sell so well."
So there's hope...

Swordbearer books?
A: From "A (Pseudo) Interview...:"
"...I went ahead and wrote two-thirds of one called The Swordbreaker. Then
the editor got fired and the whole Timescape line folded and I quit working
on it. Looking at it later, I didn't think what I had done was very good, so
I ditched the whole project."

Garrett books?
A: Yes.  The latest one has reportedly been sent to the editor. 

    Probably the definitive answer to some of these questions can be found
in a FAQ Glen himself put out circa 1992 or so:
     "There will be no sequel to (take your pick) A Matter of Time, The
Swordbearer, The Dragon Never Sleeps, Tower of Fear, Passage at Arms, The
Starfishers Trilogy.  Several more titles in the Dread Empire were planned
at one time but lack of commercial success makes it unlikely any will get
written."


Q: What other authors would you recommend for a fan of Cook's?

A: Many Cook readers look for authors that write with a gritty, realistic
(for fantasy/sci-fi) feel similar to his.  Some names that have come up,
repeatedly, on the Glen Cook Mailing List include: Steven Brust (Vlad Taltos
series), Laurel Hamilton (Anita Blake series), David Gemmell (Drenai
series), George R. Martin, David Drake, MS Rohan (Winter of the World
series, Northworld trilogy), Iain M. Banks, Michael Moorcock (Elric of
Melnibone series), Robert Jordan.
   This is by no means an exhaustive list.


BC QUESTIONS:

The "Black Company" series is Cook's most popular, without a doubt.

Q: What is Tonk?

A: A card game played by mercenaries of the Black Company throughout the
series to pass the time.  The following sites have versions of the rules:

http://www.gamecabinet.com/rules/Tonk.html
http://www.bsfs.org/bsfstonk.htm


Q: Do any maps exist of the world of the Black Company novels?

A: Cook has never made any official maps, and has indicated he will never do
so.  Some fan representations can be found at:

http://www.cofc.edu/~wraggj/blackco/

http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/Images/MapNorth.GIF
http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/Images/MapSouth.GIF
http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/Images/MapShadow.GIF

Q: Have any video games or RPG's been based on the Black Company novels?

A: No.  At least, not directly.  
The games "Myth: The Fallen Lords" and "Myth II: Soulblighter" are not based
directly on the Black Company series, but the similarities between the two
are enough to put that whole Lincoln-Kennedy thing to shame.  "Eldon the
Seer" has a fine page dedicated to just this topic.  You can find it here:

http://members.tripod.com/~blackco/myth-n-bc.html

For a time, The Blacksburg Tactical Research Center (BTRC), makers of CORPS,
attempted to obtain a license for developing a Black Company setting.  It
was not successful.  From http://www.btrc.com:

	"A Black Company setting for CORPS is looking more and more unlikely
(sigh). The
license holders, while still expressing interest, have not shown that
interest by bothering to return my email and phone calls. If you are a fan
of this series and want to see a game adaptation, email me and them (see
email address below)."

The e-mail in question is IMAC100@aol.com, I'm unsure whether to print it or
not.
 

Q: What's Croaker's real name?

A: Marion Morrison.  Kidding.  It's never stated.


Q: Who were the Ten Who Were Taken?

A: From The Black Company:
     "...I told him about the Domination, and the Dominator and his Lady.
Their rule had spanned an empire of evil unrivalled in Hell.  I told him
about the Ten Who Were Taken (of which Soulcatcher was one), ten great
wizards, near-demigods in their power, who had been overcome by the
Dominator and compelled into his service.  I told him about the White Rose,
the lady general who had brought the Domination down, but whose power had
been insufficient to destroy the Dominator, his Lady, and the Ten.  She had
interred the lot in a charm-bound barrow somewhere north of the sea."
     The original Ten Who Were Taken are/were:

     Soulcatcher      Moonbiter
     The Howler     The Faceless Man
     The Limper     Bonegnasher
     Stormbringer   Nightcrawler
     Shapeshifter     The Hanged Man

     Throughout the Books of the North, the original Taken's numbers were
thinned by infighting and enemy action against the rebellion (in fact, all
but Soulcatcher, the Howler, and the Limper had died by the end of the
Battle of Charm).  Several powerful members of the Circle of Eighteen, the
White Rose's high command, found themselves Taken as well:

     Whisper   Blister
     Feather     Creeper
     Journey    Learned
     Benefice   Scorn
     

Q: Who were the four Senjak sisters?

A: 
Dorotea - The youngest daughter.  Real name of The Lady.

Ardath - Name by which the Dominator knew Lady.  In actuality, one of Lady's
sisters, who was killed before the ascent of the Dominator.

Credence - Married to Barthelme of Jaunt.  Died when Jaunt was taken by the
Dominator and the Lady.

Sylith - Swept away when the River Dream flooded.  Body never found.  Widely
believed to be the real name of the Taken Soulcatcher.


Q: Who the hell is the 3rd female Taken?

A: From The Black Company:
     "Three of the Taken are female, but which are which only the Lady
knows.  We call them all he."

     The two Taken we know to be female are Soulcatcher and Stormbringer. 
Moonbiter?  Nightcrawler?  I need to research the archives a little more,
but other can feel free to enlighten me.

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David George" <dsgeorge@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) anti-heroes....the Company
Date: 15 Aug 2000 18:15:41 -0500

Not sure where it started (here or abroad) but there is a deep tradition of
flawed heroes in American fiction.  Dashiell Hammett's Continental Op and
Sam Spade are both not people I'd want my sister to date, but are definitely
heroic.  Probably the best writing in this style (my opinion) is Raymond
Chandler's Philip Marlowe stories.  If Raymond Chandler is not an influence
on Glen Cook (Garrett and so on) I'll eat my hat.  Mickey Spillane is more
of the same.  More recently, there is also Andrew Vachss, whose Burke
character and his cronies are darksiders all the way.  I guess that
antiheroism is not the norm but it is definitely a well-trod path in the
mystery genre.

If you are willing to drag movies into the mix, there are lots of Westerns
with anti-heroic leads.  Fistfull of Dollars springs to mind right away.
Yes, I know it is a tribute/ripoff of Kurosawa's Yojimbo, but that in turn
is a retelling of Hammett's Red Harvest in samurai drag.  And I think
Kurosawa was in turn influenced by Western movies when he made it, based on
the opening sequence.  All it needs is a harmonica in the soundtrack to
become a Western.

While I am an avid reader, I am not a student of literature, so I invite
more learned hands to chip in with scholarly comment on the roots of
anti-heroism.

By the by, I know American cinema gets a rap for sweet endings (vs.
realistic ones) and I'm right there with most folks calling for more
bittersweet endings.  But once again, we are ripping off foreigners when we
do it too sweet.  After Cromwell and the roundheads got the boot in England
and theater was once again legal, many of Shakespeare's plays were rewritten
to have sweet endings: Romeo and Juliet wake up; King Lear turns out to be
not so dead; etc.

I think it is just human nature, some people like to color in the lines,
others color across them.  Judging from cinema, the "color-in-the-liners"
outnumber us substantially.

DG

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2000 11:45 AM


> I recently introduced "The Black Company" to a local book club that I'm
> involved in.  The responses were mixed, but all seemed to revolve around
> exactly what you're covering here.  (I'm simplifying the comments and
> leaving out some of the off-topic comments.)
>
> The Pro-BC crowd - We liked the gritty realism.  We liked the fact that
the
> characters were human and had flaws and even some of the enemies had their
> human traits.
>
> The Anti-BC crowd - There isn't a white knight.  I just couldn't find
anyone
> to root for.  I couldn't feel sorry for Croaker when he was whining about
> XXX.
>
>
> Seems that there are a lot of readers out there that are really dependent
on
> having a white knight to try to identify with, rather than characters with
> more realistic motivations.  I wonder if this isn't a American Culture
> (failures/imperfections != hero) thing....any readers from across the pond
> have any comments???  This was a bit of an eye opener for me as my group
of
> gaming/roleplay/reading friends all enjoy the Black Company.  Then again,
> they're a pretty nasty bunch full of base cunning when it comes to getting
a
> job done.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Richard Chilton" <rchilton@auracom.com>
> To: <glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2000 11:16 AM
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) newbie talks about Cook and the Black Company
>
>
> Note - spoilers for The Silver Spike
>
> Look at Raven:
> When we first meet him he kills his wife and two of her friends in cold
> blood.  He has a few other people to kill before he can join up.  He's
> an emotionless killing machine, a real bad-ass.
> Then he risks his life (and the company) to rescue a little girl who's
> being raped.  Nothing to gain, just a moral stand.  By The Silver Spike
> he's gone from emotionless killing machine to a complete character with
> understandable motivations.  The way he winces when his son dismisses
> him in The Silver Spike - combined with the look on his face when he
> kills his wife in The Black Company - makes him realer than most
> characters.  He never becomes a good guy, but you feel for him.
>
> Or Crocker in The Black Company - a guy who has no problem hanging out
> with Mercy; who wanders the field filled with raping, looting, and basic
> slaughter after the Amazon camp is taken without batting an eye; who
> (after countless battlefields) still is upset to see dead children; and
> who looks out for Darling when Raven isn't around.
> No one can call Crocker a good guy based on his actions in The Black
> Company, but you can't really call him a bad guy either.
>
> Or - well, any bad character.  If they stay around long enough we learn
> things about them that turn them from bad guys to greyish-black at
> worse.  The Limper is being malipulated by everyone.  Soulcatcher still
> has those issues with her sister.  The Lady just wanted to build an
> empire and be left along.  Even the 'bad' guys in the later books are
> rounded - the royal family is against the company because they see their
> position as self defense; the shadow masters are worried (in some cases
> scaried out of their minds) about the shadows and need a power base to
> contain them; the stranglers are doing the will of their goddess; the
> Daughter of Darkness is just a pawn; etc.
>
>
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bill Acuff" <wacuff@edge.net>
Subject: (glencook-fans) loose ends
Date: 15 Aug 2000 22:47:14 -0500

Everyone,

Some items I forgot to mention in my previous posts:

Eric, great job on the web site. Lots of good, new info there, too.

Pete, great job on the FAQ. I learned quite a few things there, and that
info would have been very helpful to me when I began to get into Cook.

My fraternity brothers and I played countless HOURS of tonk in college--and
none of us knew anything about the Black Company (this was before I had ever
heard of Glen Cook). It's a great betting game--more fun than poker, we
thought. Anybody else ever play?

The third female Taken; hmmm. That's a good one. Gotta be Nightcrawler or
Moonbiter, right? Or does it?

L8r,

Bill Acuff
wacuff@edge.net

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. And inside of a dog, it's
too dark to read." - Groucho Marx.


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tyler Fain <hark_destiny@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) deaths in SOLDIERS LIVE
Date: 15 Aug 2000 22:39:07 -0700 (PDT)


--- Malik Coates <malikcoates@flashmail.com> wrote:
> SPOILERS for SOLDIERS LIVE
> 
> -
> -
> -
> -
> -
> -
> -
> -
> -
> -
> -
> -
> -
> -
> -
> -
> -
> -
> -
> -
> -
> -
> A few of the highlight deaths in this book:
> 
> Goblin, blown to bits.
> Mogaba, killed by giant duck.
> The prince, just for being too close to the action.
> Sleepy, crispy fried critter.
> Narayan, a just end for the guy i think.
> The Daughter of Night, killed by ennui.
> And many many more.
> 

Who else died? Here's some more of the top of my
head..

Murgen
Otto
Hagop
Cletus
Loftus (or was it Longinus? One of 'em died in WS)
Iqbal Singh
Riverwalker
Ghopal Singh
Mother Gota
Sahra
One-Eye
Magadan
Gromovol
Willow Swan
Blade
Thai Dei
Uncle Doj
One-Eye's Nyueng Bao bodyguard (forgot his name)
The Howler
Lisa Bowalk
Baladyita(sp?)
Kina

..and some Hsien warriors (can't remember the names
off the top of me head)

Did Runmust Singh die? How about the two older Voroshk
parents? Hmm, that's about all I can think of at the
moment.

--
"Sosa, sosa."

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tyler Fain <hark_destiny@yahoo.com>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Kina lives!
Date: 15 Aug 2000 22:49:58 -0700 (PDT)

Be afraid, be very afraid..

http://www.dreamworksrecords.com/kina/5205/5205.html 

--


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/

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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David Chisholm" <David_Chisholm@i2.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) deaths in SOLDIERS LIVE
Date: 16 Aug 2000 01:10:00 -0500



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Tyler Fain
> Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 12:39 AM
> To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) deaths in SOLDIERS LIVE
>
>
>
> --- Malik Coates <malikcoates@flashmail.com> wrote:
> > SPOILERS for SOLDIERS LIVE
> >
> > -
> > -
> > -
> > -
> > -
> > -
> > -
> > -
> > -
> > -
> > -
> > -
> > -
> > -
> > -
> > -
> > -
> > -
> > -
> > -
> > -
> > -
> > A few of the highlight deaths in this book:
> >

<snip>

>
> Who else died? Here's some more of the top of my
> head..
>

<snip>

> Kina

I found Kina's death to be kinda lame.  How is it that a near-omnipotent
entity like Shivetya cannot kill Kina, but a spear created by a half-dead,
small-time wizard like One-Eye can?  The story is that the spear is
One-Eye's masterpiece, but it still a major stretch.

I liked SL, but I think there were many trumped up situations (all the trips
back and forth to the plain that caused key people to be missed at the worst
time - what happened to the Company's reputation for planning?) and story
stretches like the one above that were used to wrap up the Company story in
one neat box (neat relative to Cook's style).  To me this indicates that
there will be no more Company stories.  Why else would Cook go to such great
lengths to wrap things up?

David

PS - saw the next post's subject 'Kina Lives'.  You never see the body, but
I don't think that Kina could still be alive.  If it were then Shivetya
would know and he couldn't give up his post even in a trade of duties with
Croaker.



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From: WinB@aol.com
Subject: (glencook-fans) Raker (Short Story)
Date: 16 Aug 2000 15:23:54 EDT

I think Bill asked this, but I'm curious too, as I just passed the third chapter of BC. I'd like to know what everyone *thinks* the differences are between the Raker chapter and the original short story. If you happen to know for sure, hold off on your response. I'd like to know personal feelings.

I would think that there would be a bit more background on the Company and the last paragraph (explaining where they went afterward) would be removed.

Thoughts?

Win

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From: Matthew Roche <rocheml@cerebusnm.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Raker (Short Story)
Date: 16 Aug 2000 13:34:06 -0600

although i've never really given this too much thought and don't have the
book in front of me i'd like to add a related thought on *your* thoughts. i
would expect the background and related exposition to be absent. when has
glen cook ever explained the details of a story's setting up front instead
of making the reader intuit it from the story itself?

just my little tangent...

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 3:24 PM


I think Bill asked this, but I'm curious too, as I just passed the third
chapter of BC. I'd like to know what everyone *thinks* the differences are
between the Raker chapter and the original short story. If you happen to
know for sure, hold off on your response. I'd like to know personal
feelings.

I would think that there would be a bit more background on the Company and
the last paragraph (explaining where they went afterward) would be removed.

Thoughts?

Win

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From: WinB@aol.com
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Raker (Short Story)
Date: 16 Aug 2000 16:44:42 EDT

Good point. I don't think that he would explain how and why the Company got to the north (or even that they were ever in the south) but I do think that there would be a bit more lines like "One-eye and Goblin have been squabbling for ages" and "our merry band of cutthroats." Short stories have little time for back story, but there is at least exposition about the current situation.

Win

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From: "Michele" <mr1@rcosta.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) deaths in SOLDIERS LIVE
Date: 16 Aug 2000 22:44:38 -0400


SPOILERS





On 15 Aug 00, at 22:39, Tyler Fain wrote:

> One-Eye's Nyueng Bao bodyguard (forgot his name)

Jo Jo - I think his Nyueng Bao name was Cho Don Cho...

M

Michele
mr1@rcosta.com

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From: "Bill Acuff" <wacuff@edge.net>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Kina lives, out-of-print Cook, Raker
Date: 17 Aug 2000 00:06:35 -0500

Thanks for the "Kina lives . . . be very afraid" bit, Tyler . . . 'bout
rolled out of the chair on that one. <grin>

I got lucky and found reputedly good copies of Doomstalker, October's Baby,
*and* All Darkness Met on the 'net, for $5, $10, and $10 respectively (from
two different stores, and not including S&H). I *guess* I was lucky.
Thoughts?

I never would have dreamed that Glen would write an "adult" book. That is
what the FAQ was saying about The Swap Academy, right? Anybody read this? At
least he used a pseudonym. <grin>

Speaking of anti-heroes (and I haven't been on the list long but I've sensed
that talking about other authors isn't exactly the greatest idea--I'll just
throw this tiny bit out), anybody here read Stephen R. Donaldson's
Chronicles of Thomas Covenant series (first three novels, anyway)? Well, if
you have, you'd have to agree that Thomas Covenant is about as ANTI hero as
you can get. I did love that series, by the way--and I'm well aware that
this series is either loved or hated in most cases.

On the same topic, I do agree with you, David, that bittersweet is better
than too sweet--I for sure wouldn't want Glen writing "and after the big,
bad monster was dead, they all lived happily ever after" stories, and I'm
sure he wouldn't want to write them, either. Life just doesn't work that
way. And Raven IS near tops on my list of Cook's characters. Raven, Silent,
and The Limper are just waaaayyyy too bad. <grin>

The original question re. Raker was: which came first, the short story, or
the novel? I know many writers develop full-length novels from successful
short stories, but I suppose it can go the other way, too. Anybody know?

Win, I'd bet you're right about a little more background in the Raker short
than in the BC novel. There would have to be, otherwise the story wouldn't
make much sense. Um, surely you're not reading BC for the first time? If so,
boy do I envy you. Enjoy--there ain't nothing in fantasy like those first
three novels and The Silver Spike.

But look at me: after those two Dread Empire books and Doomstalker comes in
I'll have two brand new (to me, anyway) Glen Cook series to read. Can't wait
for that.

L8r,

Bill Acuff
wacuff@edge.net

"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. And inside of a dog, it's
too dark to read." - Groucho Marx.


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From: "Scott Vandenberg" <svandenb@mailer.fsu.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Kina lives, out-of-print Cook, Raker
Date: 17 Aug 2000 08:25:33 -0400

The Dread empire is the BC little brother.  You can see Cook's growth as an
author between the two.  It isn't BC but it isn't crap like a lot of fantasy
series out there.  I just got the Doomstalker trilogy complete, so I will
read that after SL.

Also, I would like to thank all who label Spoiler to their e-mail, since I
am only on page 180 of SL.

Scott
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2000 1:06 AM


> Thanks for the "Kina lives . . . be very afraid" bit, Tyler . . . 'bout
> rolled out of the chair on that one. <grin>
>
> I got lucky and found reputedly good copies of Doomstalker, October's
Baby,
> *and* All Darkness Met on the 'net, for $5, $10, and $10 respectively
(from
> two different stores, and not including S&H). I *guess* I was lucky.
> Thoughts?
>
> I never would have dreamed that Glen would write an "adult" book. That is
> what the FAQ was saying about The Swap Academy, right? Anybody read this?
At
> least he used a pseudonym. <grin>
>
> Speaking of anti-heroes (and I haven't been on the list long but I've
sensed
> that talking about other authors isn't exactly the greatest idea--I'll
just
> throw this tiny bit out), anybody here read Stephen R. Donaldson's
> Chronicles of Thomas Covenant series (first three novels, anyway)? Well,
if
> you have, you'd have to agree that Thomas Covenant is about as ANTI hero
as
> you can get. I did love that series, by the way--and I'm well aware that
> this series is either loved or hated in most cases.
>
> On the same topic, I do agree with you, David, that bittersweet is better
> than too sweet--I for sure wouldn't want Glen writing "and after the big,
> bad monster was dead, they all lived happily ever after" stories, and I'm
> sure he wouldn't want to write them, either. Life just doesn't work that
> way. And Raven IS near tops on my list of Cook's characters. Raven,
Silent,
> and The Limper are just waaaayyyy too bad. <grin>
>
> The original question re. Raker was: which came first, the short story, or
> the novel? I know many writers develop full-length novels from successful
> short stories, but I suppose it can go the other way, too. Anybody know?
>
> Win, I'd bet you're right about a little more background in the Raker
short
> than in the BC novel. There would have to be, otherwise the story wouldn't
> make much sense. Um, surely you're not reading BC for the first time? If
so,
> boy do I envy you. Enjoy--there ain't nothing in fantasy like those first
> three novels and The Silver Spike.
>
> But look at me: after those two Dread Empire books and Doomstalker comes
in
> I'll have two brand new (to me, anyway) Glen Cook series to read. Can't
wait
> for that.
>
> L8r,
>
> Bill Acuff
> wacuff@edge.net
>
> "Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. And inside of a dog, it's
> too dark to read." - Groucho Marx.
>
>
> =======================================================================
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>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>


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From: WinB@aol.com
Subject: (glencook-fans) Reading BC
Date: 17 Aug 2000 09:46:17 EDT

You've got to be kidding, Bill. I first read the BC in 1986. I was checking bookstores every month waiting for Shadow Games to be released. Every year since then (with a few exceptions) I have re-read the entire series.

However, I enjoyed your comment about envying me. There is never that spark after the first time you read a great novel. I remember the first time I read the Hobbit, almost 25 years ago. It was, pardon the pun, a  magical experience. It was the same way with BC. During the early 80s there was such a rash of tolkien wannabes that the grittiness of the BC was refreshing. It's almost a shame that we have become so familiar with the characters. I am like many others on the list in that I finished SL in about three days. I didn't take the time to savor it. That's why I started the series again. I want to go through the entire story, slowly. It might take me until the end of the year, but it will be worth it.

Win

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From: "Rohrer, Mike" <Mike.Rohrer@compaq.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) deaths in SOLDIERS LIVE (obvious spoilers)
Date: 17 Aug 2000 10:01:38 -0400

SPOILERS





















"..and some Hsien warriors (can't remember the names
off the top of me head)

Did Runmust Singh die? How about the two older Voroshk
parents? Hmm, that's about all I can think of at the
moment."

The two older Voroshk died along with Howler and Murgen in the botched raid.
Pretty sure Runmust died as well, just not sure when.  

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From: "Mark Debes" <mdebes@fauquierbank.com>
Subject: RE:  RE: (glencook-fans) deaths in SOLDIERS
Date: 17 Aug 2000 10:11 -0400

SPOILERS
















I thought, given the prior difficulty in killing the Taken, the Howler went
out fairly easily.

 -----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2000 10:01 AM


SPOILERS





















"..and some Hsien warriors (can't remember the names
off the top of me head)

Did Runmust Singh die? How about the two older Voroshk
parents? Hmm, that's about all I can think of at the
moment."

The two older Voroshk died along with Howler and Murgen in the botched raid.
Pretty sure Runmust died as well, just not sure when.

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From: AndersNJ@bscmail.buffalostate.edu
Subject: RE: RE: (glencook-fans) deaths in SOLDIERS
Date: 17 Aug 2000 10:39:37 -0400

man.... I am like about 100 pages if that from the end now... and all I can
say is.... MY GOD!

I still protest that the first series is better than the rest of the BC
books, but I have to say that I do like SL more than WS 

nick


Nicholas Anderson
Computer Support Development Coordinator
Buffalo State College
andersnj@bscmail.buffalostate.edu
http://www.buffalostate.edu/~nick
Fresh in my mind the dream stays
slowly eating away at my mind
It does not like to be kind
But who am I to argue.


-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2000 10:11 AM


SPOILERS
















I thought, given the prior difficulty in killing the Taken, the Howler went
out fairly easily.

 -----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2000 10:01 AM


SPOILERS





















"..and some Hsien warriors (can't remember the names
off the top of me head)

Did Runmust Singh die? How about the two older Voroshk
parents? Hmm, that's about all I can think of at the
moment."

The two older Voroshk died along with Howler and Murgen in the botched raid.
Pretty sure Runmust died as well, just not sure when.

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From: Matthew Roche <rocheml@cerebusnm.com>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Alternate Author - Damien Broderick
Date: 17 Aug 2000 08:41:08 -0600

i can't remember who said this, but someone said that they liked 'the
swordbearer' best out of cook's writings because it was raw and unrefined
and fresh. it's taken a few days for this thought to filter through my
brain, but here's the result: if you like 'the swordbearer' you may also
like 'the black grail' by damien broderick. sadly, it is also out of print,
but this should be no impediment to glen cook fans...

has anyone else read this one and seen similar parallels?

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From: "Glenn Hoetker" <ghoetker@umich.edu>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Rereading SL--no spoilers
Date: 17 Aug 2000 10:37:25 -0400

Greetings all.  One of the things that I've always liked about Cook's stuff
if that it stands up very well to re-reading.  For my tastes, even better
than a number of other authors whom I really like (e.g. Heinlein).  This
became abundently clear with SL.  If you're like me, you probably read SL
like a starving man seeing food for the first time in weeks.    I'm about
200 pages through it for the second time and can say that it's worth taking
the time when you can savor it a bit.  I'm catching things that I had
totally blown by the first time and enjoying the tone of it more.   Of
course, in my dream world , I'd now reread the whole thing starting with
TBC, but there's this little dissertation waiting for me.

Anyway, just wanted to pass along this recommendation for anyone who has
finished SL and been slightly unsatisfied.  Rest a week and then come back
at it.  It's rewarding, at least in my experience.

Happy reading!

Glenn

-----
Glenn Hoetker
ghoetker@umich.edu
PhD Candidate, International Business &
Corporate Strategy
University of Michigan Business School


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From: Matthew Roche <rocheml@cerebusnm.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Rereading SL--no spoilers
Date: 17 Aug 2000 08:47:44 -0600

have you considered changing your dissertation to 'listserve and the impact
of internet communication on literary criticism and group consensus among
geographically distributed peer communities?'


-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2000 10:37 AM


Greetings all.  One of the things that I've always liked about Cook's stuff
if that it stands up very well to re-reading.  For my tastes, even better
than a number of other authors whom I really like (e.g. Heinlein).  This
became abundently clear with SL.  If you're like me, you probably read SL
like a starving man seeing food for the first time in weeks.    I'm about
200 pages through it for the second time and can say that it's worth taking
the time when you can savor it a bit.  I'm catching things that I had
totally blown by the first time and enjoying the tone of it more.   Of
course, in my dream world , I'd now reread the whole thing starting with
TBC, but there's this little dissertation waiting for me.

Anyway, just wanted to pass along this recommendation for anyone who has
finished SL and been slightly unsatisfied.  Rest a week and then come back
at it.  It's rewarding, at least in my experience.

Happy reading!

Glenn

-----
Glenn Hoetker
ghoetker@umich.edu
PhD Candidate, International Business &
Corporate Strategy
University of Michigan Business School


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From: WinB@aol.com
Subject: RE:  RE: (glencook-fans) deaths in SOLDIERS
Date: 17 Aug 2000 11:36:12 EDT

First, let me apologize if my email is not quoting previous mails correctly...I'm using AOL's web client and I can't see the original message when I reply...

SPOILER













I mentioned this earlier (or maybe I just thought it). Think about wishes granted by genies. What if the Howler's power was so rooted in his handicap that when Shivetya "cured" him, it stripped him of some of his power. It would be just like him. The golem doesn't care what happens in the different worlds.

Taking that one step further. Croaker assumes Shivetya's powers because he can study to his heart's content. What if the ability to filter out the activities in different worlds is difficult. Now Croaker can sense everything that is going on, but at the same time. He would not be able to sift the wheat from the chaff. It would be like the Twilight Zone...all these books and a pair of broken glasses.

Win

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From: "PrimalChrome" <chrome@wwisp.com>
Subject: Re: RE: (glencook-fans) SPOILER deaths in SOLDIERS
Date: 17 Aug 2000 11:15:31 -0500

SPOILER













>>What if the Howler's power was so rooted in his handicap that when
Shivetya "cured" him, it stripped him of some of his power. It would be just
like him. The golem doesn't care what happens in the different worlds.<<

They stated specifically that Howler's condition resulted after he was
already an accomplished sorceror.  But with the well staged deaths that have
happened throughout the series (specifically by Taken) makes me note two
things:

1.  It was dark when the shadows were killing.  No one SAW Howler bite the
bullet.
2.  One ordinary, mundane soldier survived, and there wasn't a very powerful
(and unpanicked) sorceror there to confirm that wasn't just an illusion.

I know it's a stretch...but....Howler had to be planning for an escape since
he was healed.  Wouldn't he expect the confusion of attacking the Great
General to be a good chance...the Shadows just adding to it's perfection.



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From: Sam Roberts <Sam.Roberts@apollogrp.edu>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) The FAQ V.0.2 - female Taken
Date: 17 Aug 2000 09:19:21 -0700

When the topic of the last female Taken came up I remember thinking that one
of the Shadowmasters that had been a Taken was a female but I didn't look
for a supporting reference and then eventually forgot about it.  Then, while
I was reading SL, I found a sentence or two referring to the same person
using a feminine pronoun.  I probably should have written down what page it
was on but I was too engrossed in the book to bother putting it down at that
point.  Does anyone else remember the reference?  I'll check when I get home
today and see if I can find it.

Sam

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2000 3:21 PM


 In the grand tradition of online discussion, I'm going to drop the latest
incarnation of the FAQ in your laps and promptly go to Maine for a week.
E-mail me any feedback you have (I've already gotten and incorporated some
very good comments) and I'll jump back into it when I get back.
 Known Gaps:
 - I don't have the short stories in chronolgical order
 - It was suggested that I might want to include publisher info.  I don't
consider it a bad idea, just a time consuming one, especially since I'll
need to include publication info for the short stories.
 - I haven't checked out the latest archives to resolve who the 3rd female
taken was (though I suspect there was no actual resolution to this question)
 - After this e-mail, we may want to consider posting this on the web for
review, as opposed to me mailing it to everbody on the list every week or so
until it's finished.
 - No, it's still not in official FAQ format.  I think I've gotten the
questions into a more logical order, however.

 Thanks,
 Pete

------------
The Glen Cook FAQ

Q: Who is this Glen Cook fellow anyway?

A: Glen Charles Cook was born in 1944 in New York City. He has lived in
Columbus, Indiana; Rocklin, California; and Columbia, Missouri, where he
attended the state university (The University of Missouri). He attended the
Clarion Writers Workshop in 1970, where he met his wife, Carol.  He is the
author of, among others, the Black Company series; the Garrett, P.I. series;
the Dread Empire series; the Starfishers trilogy; and the Darkwar trilogy.
He has three children.

     From "Winter's Dreams"
(http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/Books/WntrDrms.html)
     "Glen's hobbies include stamp collecting, book collecting, and a
passing interest in military history. Usually Glen can be found behind a
huckster table at those conventions he attends. So, if you are in the
dealer's room buying one of his books, and the man behind the table asks if
you want it signed, chances are you just met him."


Q; What are some Glen Cook web sites?

A: There are several.  

 The most comprehensive site by far is Eric Herrmann's  Glen Cook Fan Page -
http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Home.html 
 The Black Company Homepage - http://www.shout.net/~bburgner/blackco.html 
 Eldon the Seer's Black Company Outpost -
http://members.tripod.com/~blackco/
 Ender's Black Company page - http://www.angelfire.com/bc/blackcompany/
 The Black Company Index - http://www.connectexpress.com/~rfr/bcompany1.html
 Tor - Cook's publisher - http://www.tor.com/tor.html 
 
 A much more exhaustive list can be found at
 http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Links.html 


Q: Is it true Cook works in an auto plant?

A: Mr. Cook used to work in a GM light truck plant in St. Louis.  He has
since retired.


Q: Did Cook ever serve in the military?

A: Short answer: Yes.

From "A (Pseudo) Interview with Glen Cook:"
(http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Biog2.html)
     "Eight years Navy and Navy Reserve with four years high school ROTC
beforehand. For a while I thought it was what I wanted to do with my life.
Served aboard destroyers and with a Marine Force Recon outfit as Forward
Fire Control Observer."

According to "Winter's Dreams," Cook served with the 3rd Marine Recon
Battalion.


Q: How can I contact him?  Does he have an e-mail address?

A: It is pretty widely acknowledged that Glen does not have an e-mail
address and, in fact, is not very enamored of computers in general.  A more
reliable method to get in touch with Glen is to attend a Con at which he's
running a table.  If that's out of the question, Glen has a mailing address
where fans can request autographs and hard to find books of his:

     The Dragon Never Sleeps
     4106 Flora Place
     St. Louis, MO  63110

	Note that this is not a physical store to visit, per se, but a
private service run by Glen for people seeking specific books.  It is also
not a pen-pal service.  As Glen reminds us: 
	"Matters of courtesy to recall when writing your favorite authors.
There is one of him and many of you. It takes away from writing to answer
letters. It costs money to answer letters when you do not include a Stamped
Self-Addressed Envelope. Only a handful of writers make any money writing."


Q: What has he written?

A: The Black Company:				From the Files of Garrett
P.I.
	The Books of the North			Sweet Silver Blues (1987)
	The Black Company (1984)		Bitter Gold Hearts (1988)
	Shadows Linger (1984)			Cold Copper Tears (1988)
	The White Rose (1985)			Old Tin Sorrows (1989)
						Dread Brass Shadows (1990)
	The Silver Spike (1989)			Red Iron Nights (1991)
						Deadly Quicksilver Lies
(1994)
	The Books of the South			Petty Pewter Gods (1995)
	Shadow Games (1989)			Faded Steel Heat (1999)
	Dreams of Steel (1990)
						Collections
Glittering Stone	The Garrett Files (containing Sweet Silver Blues,
Bitter Gold Hearts, and Cold Copper Tears) (1988)
	Bleak Seasons (1996)
	She Is the Darkness (1997)
	Water Sleeps (1998)
	Soldiers Live (2000)

	Collections
	The Annals of the Black Company 
(containing  The Black Company, 
Shadows Linger, and The White Rose)
 (1986)

   The Haunting Dread Empire			The Starfishers Trilogy
	Prequels					Shadowline (1982)
	The Fire in His Hands (1984)		Starfishers (1982)
	With Mercy Towards None (1985)		Star's End (1982)

	The Dread Empire Trilogy			Passage at Arms
(1985)
	A Shadow of All Night Falling (1979)
	October's Baby (1980)
	All Darkness Met (1980)

	Sequels
	Reap the East Wind (1987)
	An Ill Fate Marshalling (1988)

	Future works
	A Path to Coldness of the Heart
	The Cruel Storm
	
   The Darkwar Trilogy			Others
	Doomstalker (1985)		The Swap Academy (as Greg Stevens)
(1970)
	Warlock	 (1985)			The Heirs of Babylon (1972)
	Ceremony (1986)			The Swordbearer (1982)
					A Matter of Time (1985)
					The Dragon Never Sleeps (1988)
					The Tower of Fear (1989)
					Sung in Blood (1990)

   Short Stories
And Dragons in the Sky 
Appointment in Samarkand 
Call for the Dead 
Castle of Tears 
Darkwar 
Devil's Tooth, The 
Enemy Territory 
Filed Teeth 
Ghost Stalk 
In the Wind 
Nights of Deadful Silence, The 
Ponce 
Quiet Sea 
Raker 
Recruiter, The 
Seventh Fool, The 
Severed Heads 
Silverheels 
Soldier of an Empire Unacquainted With Defeat 
Song From A Forgotten Hill 
Sunrise 
Waiting Sea, The 
Winter's Dreams 
					
Cook has said the planned Dread Empire books are "unlikely to appear."
According to later reports, this might be viewed as an understatement.


Q: Where can I find a copy of...Dread Empire books?  Starfishers books?  

A: Cook's works are often popping up on different auction sites and book
search pages.  Here are a few places to look:

ABE Books -  http://www.abebooks.com
Alibris.com - http://www.alibris.com
Amazon - http://www.amazon.com 
eBay -  http://www.ebay.com
Bookfinder - http://www.bookfinder.com 
Bibliofind -  http://www.bibliofind.com
Barnes and Noble - http://www.bn.com 
Border's Books - http://www.borders.com 
The Dragon Never Sleeps (see below)...

Don't underestimate the power of used bookstores and flea markets.  If you
check regularly several titles may turn up.

Occasionally, members of the mailing list have extras they are willing to
sell/trade for.


Q: What is this mailing list you keep referring to?

A: You can sign up for the Glen Cook Fans Mailing List by sending a message
to majordomo@xmission.com with "subscribe glencook-fans" in the body.

If you prefer to receive messages in digest form, send a message to
majordomo@xmission.com 
with "subscribe glencook-fans-digest" in the body.


Q: What's Glen's best book?

A: Depends on who you ask.  Some love The Tower of Fear, others favor The
Dragon Never Sleeps, still more would say The Black Company.  One thing's
for certain, nobody ever recommends The Swap Academy.


Q: Why not?

A: The Swap Academy was an adult book written under a pseudonym (Greg
Stevens).  It
has nothing to do with his later work, and is included here only in the
interest of completeness.


Q: Is Glen planning on writing any more...

Dread Empire books?
A: Highly unlikely.  The originals sold so poorly that it is apparently not
feasible for him to write any more, though he has said he has plots for
further books.

Black Company books?
A: Possibly.   The ending of Soldiers Live (the latest Chronicle of the
Black Company) has inspired a healthy debate as to whether another book is
either possible or even desirable.  However, during a Q&A session at
Windycon in 1999, Glen was asked about the possibility of starting a new
fantasy series and admitted, "I had expected to begin, and I would start
something entirely new, but my agent and my editor both are pressuring me to
do more Black Company material because they sell so well."
So there's hope...

Swordbearer books?
A: From "A (Pseudo) Interview...:"
"...I went ahead and wrote two-thirds of one called The Swordbreaker. Then
the editor got fired and the whole Timescape line folded and I quit working
on it. Looking at it later, I didn't think what I had done was very good, so
I ditched the whole project."

Garrett books?
A: Yes.  The latest one has reportedly been sent to the editor. 

    Probably the definitive answer to some of these questions can be found
in a FAQ Glen himself put out circa 1992 or so:
     "There will be no sequel to (take your pick) A Matter of Time, The
Swordbearer, The Dragon Never Sleeps, Tower of Fear, Passage at Arms, The
Starfishers Trilogy.  Several more titles in the Dread Empire were planned
at one time but lack of commercial success makes it unlikely any will get
written."


Q: What other authors would you recommend for a fan of Cook's?

A: Many Cook readers look for authors that write with a gritty, realistic
(for fantasy/sci-fi) feel similar to his.  Some names that have come up,
repeatedly, on the Glen Cook Mailing List include: Steven Brust (Vlad Taltos
series), Laurel Hamilton (Anita Blake series), David Gemmell (Drenai
series), George R. Martin, David Drake, MS Rohan (Winter of the World
series, Northworld trilogy), Iain M. Banks, Michael Moorcock (Elric of
Melnibone series), Robert Jordan.
   This is by no means an exhaustive list.


BC QUESTIONS:

The "Black Company" series is Cook's most popular, without a doubt.

Q: What is Tonk?

A: A card game played by mercenaries of the Black Company throughout the
series to pass the time.  The following sites have versions of the rules:

http://www.gamecabinet.com/rules/Tonk.html
http://www.bsfs.org/bsfstonk.htm


Q: Do any maps exist of the world of the Black Company novels?

A: Cook has never made any official maps, and has indicated he will never do
so.  Some fan representations can be found at:

http://www.cofc.edu/~wraggj/blackco/

http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/Images/MapNorth.GIF
http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/Images/MapSouth.GIF
http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/Images/MapShadow.GIF

Q: Have any video games or RPG's been based on the Black Company novels?

A: No.  At least, not directly.  
The games "Myth: The Fallen Lords" and "Myth II: Soulblighter" are not based
directly on the Black Company series, but the similarities between the two
are enough to put that whole Lincoln-Kennedy thing to shame.  "Eldon the
Seer" has a fine page dedicated to just this topic.  You can find it here:

http://members.tripod.com/~blackco/myth-n-bc.html

For a time, The Blacksburg Tactical Research Center (BTRC), makers of CORPS,
attempted to obtain a license for developing a Black Company setting.  It
was not successful.  From http://www.btrc.com:

	"A Black Company setting for CORPS is looking more and more unlikely
(sigh). The
license holders, while still expressing interest, have not shown that
interest by bothering to return my email and phone calls. If you are a fan
of this series and want to see a game adaptation, email me and them (see
email address below)."

The e-mail in question is IMAC100@aol.com, I'm unsure whether to print it or
not.
 

Q: What's Croaker's real name?

A: Marion Morrison.  Kidding.  It's never stated.


Q: Who were the Ten Who Were Taken?

A: From The Black Company:
     "...I told him about the Domination, and the Dominator and his Lady.
Their rule had spanned an empire of evil unrivalled in Hell.  I told him
about the Ten Who Were Taken (of which Soulcatcher was one), ten great
wizards, near-demigods in their power, who had been overcome by the
Dominator and compelled into his service.  I told him about the White Rose,
the lady general who had brought the Domination down, but whose power had
been insufficient to destroy the Dominator, his Lady, and the Ten.  She had
interred the lot in a charm-bound barrow somewhere north of the sea."
     The original Ten Who Were Taken are/were:

     Soulcatcher      Moonbiter
     The Howler     The Faceless Man
     The Limper     Bonegnasher
     Stormbringer   Nightcrawler
     Shapeshifter     The Hanged Man

     Throughout the Books of the North, the original Taken's numbers were
thinned by infighting and enemy action against the rebellion (in fact, all
but Soulcatcher, the Howler, and the Limper had died by the end of the
Battle of Charm).  Several powerful members of the Circle of Eighteen, the
White Rose's high command, found themselves Taken as well:

     Whisper   Blister
     Feather     Creeper
     Journey    Learned
     Benefice   Scorn
     

Q: Who were the four Senjak sisters?

A: 
Dorotea - The youngest daughter.  Real name of The Lady.

Ardath - Name by which the Dominator knew Lady.  In actuality, one of Lady's
sisters, who was killed before the ascent of the Dominator.

Credence - Married to Barthelme of Jaunt.  Died when Jaunt was taken by the
Dominator and the Lady.

Sylith - Swept away when the River Dream flooded.  Body never found.  Widely
believed to be the real name of the Taken Soulcatcher.


Q: Who the hell is the 3rd female Taken?

A: From The Black Company:
     "Three of the Taken are female, but which are which only the Lady
knows.  We call them all he."

     The two Taken we know to be female are Soulcatcher and Stormbringer. 
Moonbiter?  Nightcrawler?  I need to research the archives a little more,
but other can feel free to enlighten me.

=======================================================================
 To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
 visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.

=======================================================================
 To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
 visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Changeling <chnglng@FreeQ.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) The FAQ V.0.2 - female Taken
Date: 17 Aug 2000 11:41:57 -0500 (CDT)

Stormbringer/Stormshadow was the female shadowmaster.

-Changeling


On Thu, 17 Aug 2000, Sam Roberts wrote:

> When the topic of the last female Taken came up I remember thinking that one
> of the Shadowmasters that had been a Taken was a female but I didn't look
> for a supporting reference and then eventually forgot about it.  Then, while
> I was reading SL, I found a sentence or two referring to the same person
> using a feminine pronoun.  I probably should have written down what page it
> was on but I was too engrossed in the book to bother putting it down at that
> point.  Does anyone else remember the reference?  I'll check when I get home
> today and see if I can find it.
> 
> Sam
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vonder Haar, Peter C. [mailto:Peter.VonderHaar@bakerhughes.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2000 3:21 PM
> To: 'glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com'
> Subject: (glencook-fans) The FAQ V.0.2
> 
> 
>  In the grand tradition of online discussion, I'm going to drop the latest
> incarnation of the FAQ in your laps and promptly go to Maine for a week.
> E-mail me any feedback you have (I've already gotten and incorporated some
> very good comments) and I'll jump back into it when I get back.
>  Known Gaps:
>  - I don't have the short stories in chronolgical order
>  - It was suggested that I might want to include publisher info.  I don't
> consider it a bad idea, just a time consuming one, especially since I'll
> need to include publication info for the short stories.
>  - I haven't checked out the latest archives to resolve who the 3rd female
> taken was (though I suspect there was no actual resolution to this question)
>  - After this e-mail, we may want to consider posting this on the web for
> review, as opposed to me mailing it to everbody on the list every week or so
> until it's finished.
>  - No, it's still not in official FAQ format.  I think I've gotten the
> questions into a more logical order, however.
> 
>  Thanks,
>  Pete
> 
> ------------
> The Glen Cook FAQ
> 
> Q: Who is this Glen Cook fellow anyway?
> 
> A: Glen Charles Cook was born in 1944 in New York City. He has lived in
> Columbus, Indiana; Rocklin, California; and Columbia, Missouri, where he
> attended the state university (The University of Missouri). He attended the
> Clarion Writers Workshop in 1970, where he met his wife, Carol.  He is the
> author of, among others, the Black Company series; the Garrett, P.I. series;
> the Dread Empire series; the Starfishers trilogy; and the Darkwar trilogy.
> He has three children.
> 
>      From "Winter's Dreams"
> (http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/Books/WntrDrms.html)
>      "Glen's hobbies include stamp collecting, book collecting, and a
> passing interest in military history. Usually Glen can be found behind a
> huckster table at those conventions he attends. So, if you are in the
> dealer's room buying one of his books, and the man behind the table asks if
> you want it signed, chances are you just met him."
> 
> 
> Q; What are some Glen Cook web sites?
> 
> A: There are several.  
> 
>  The most comprehensive site by far is Eric Herrmann's  Glen Cook Fan Page -
> http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Home.html 
>  The Black Company Homepage - http://www.shout.net/~bburgner/blackco.html 
>  Eldon the Seer's Black Company Outpost -
> http://members.tripod.com/~blackco/
>  Ender's Black Company page - http://www.angelfire.com/bc/blackcompany/
>  The Black Company Index - http://www.connectexpress.com/~rfr/bcompany1.html
>  Tor - Cook's publisher - http://www.tor.com/tor.html 
>  
>  A much more exhaustive list can be found at
>  http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Links.html 
> 
> 
> Q: Is it true Cook works in an auto plant?
> 
> A: Mr. Cook used to work in a GM light truck plant in St. Louis.  He has
> since retired.
> 
> 
> Q: Did Cook ever serve in the military?
> 
> A: Short answer: Yes.
> 
> >From "A (Pseudo) Interview with Glen Cook:"
> (http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Biog2.html)
>      "Eight years Navy and Navy Reserve with four years high school ROTC
> beforehand. For a while I thought it was what I wanted to do with my life.
> Served aboard destroyers and with a Marine Force Recon outfit as Forward
> Fire Control Observer."
> 
> According to "Winter's Dreams," Cook served with the 3rd Marine Recon
> Battalion.
> 
> 
> Q: How can I contact him?  Does he have an e-mail address?
> 
> A: It is pretty widely acknowledged that Glen does not have an e-mail
> address and, in fact, is not very enamored of computers in general.  A more
> reliable method to get in touch with Glen is to attend a Con at which he's
> running a table.  If that's out of the question, Glen has a mailing address
> where fans can request autographs and hard to find books of his:
> 
>      The Dragon Never Sleeps
>      4106 Flora Place
>      St. Louis, MO  63110
> 
> 	Note that this is not a physical store to visit, per se, but a
> private service run by Glen for people seeking specific books.  It is also
> not a pen-pal service.  As Glen reminds us: 
> 	"Matters of courtesy to recall when writing your favorite authors.
> There is one of him and many of you. It takes away from writing to answer
> letters. It costs money to answer letters when you do not include a Stamped
> Self-Addressed Envelope. Only a handful of writers make any money writing."
> 
> 
> Q: What has he written?
> 
> A: The Black Company:				From the Files of Garrett
> P.I.
> 	The Books of the North			Sweet Silver Blues (1987)
> 	The Black Company (1984)		Bitter Gold Hearts (1988)
> 	Shadows Linger (1984)			Cold Copper Tears (1988)
> 	The White Rose (1985)			Old Tin Sorrows (1989)
> 						Dread Brass Shadows (1990)
> 	The Silver Spike (1989)			Red Iron Nights (1991)
> 						Deadly Quicksilver Lies
> (1994)
> 	The Books of the South			Petty Pewter Gods (1995)
> 	Shadow Games (1989)			Faded Steel Heat (1999)
> 	Dreams of Steel (1990)
> 						Collections
> Glittering Stone	The Garrett Files (containing Sweet Silver Blues,
> Bitter Gold Hearts, and Cold Copper Tears) (1988)
> 	Bleak Seasons (1996)
> 	She Is the Darkness (1997)
> 	Water Sleeps (1998)
> 	Soldiers Live (2000)
> 
> 	Collections
> 	The Annals of the Black Company 
> (containing  The Black Company, 
> Shadows Linger, and The White Rose)
>  (1986)
> 
>    The Haunting Dread Empire			The Starfishers Trilogy
> 	Prequels					Shadowline (1982)
> 	The Fire in His Hands (1984)		Starfishers (1982)
> 	With Mercy Towards None (1985)		Star's End (1982)
> 
> 	The Dread Empire Trilogy			Passage at Arms
> (1985)
> 	A Shadow of All Night Falling (1979)
> 	October's Baby (1980)
> 	All Darkness Met (1980)
> 
> 	Sequels
> 	Reap the East Wind (1987)
> 	An Ill Fate Marshalling (1988)
> 
> 	Future works
> 	A Path to Coldness of the Heart
> 	The Cruel Storm
> 	
>    The Darkwar Trilogy			Others
> 	Doomstalker (1985)		The Swap Academy (as Greg Stevens)
> (1970)
> 	Warlock	 (1985)			The Heirs of Babylon (1972)
> 	Ceremony (1986)			The Swordbearer (1982)
> 					A Matter of Time (1985)
> 					The Dragon Never Sleeps (1988)
> 					The Tower of Fear (1989)
> 					Sung in Blood (1990)
> 
>    Short Stories
> And Dragons in the Sky 
> Appointment in Samarkand 
> Call for the Dead 
> Castle of Tears 
> Darkwar 
> Devil's Tooth, The 
> Enemy Territory 
> Filed Teeth 
> Ghost Stalk 
> In the Wind 
> Nights of Deadful Silence, The 
> Ponce 
> Quiet Sea 
> Raker 
> Recruiter, The 
> Seventh Fool, The 
> Severed Heads 
> Silverheels 
> Soldier of an Empire Unacquainted With Defeat 
> Song From A Forgotten Hill 
> Sunrise 
> Waiting Sea, The 
> Winter's Dreams 
> 					
> Cook has said the planned Dread Empire books are "unlikely to appear."
> According to later reports, this might be viewed as an understatement.
> 
> 
> Q: Where can I find a copy of...Dread Empire books?  Starfishers books?  
> 
> A: Cook's works are often popping up on different auction sites and book
> search pages.  Here are a few places to look:
> 
> ABE Books -  http://www.abebooks.com
> Alibris.com - http://www.alibris.com
> Amazon - http://www.amazon.com 
> eBay -  http://www.ebay.com
> Bookfinder - http://www.bookfinder.com 
> Bibliofind -  http://www.bibliofind.com
> Barnes and Noble - http://www.bn.com 
> Border's Books - http://www.borders.com 
> The Dragon Never Sleeps (see below)...
> 
> Don't underestimate the power of used bookstores and flea markets.  If you
> check regularly several titles may turn up.
> 
> Occasionally, members of the mailing list have extras they are willing to
> sell/trade for.
> 
> 
> Q: What is this mailing list you keep referring to?
> 
> A: You can sign up for the Glen Cook Fans Mailing List by sending a message
> to majordomo@xmission.com with "subscribe glencook-fans" in the body.
> 
> If you prefer to receive messages in digest form, send a message to
> majordomo@xmission.com 
> with "subscribe glencook-fans-digest" in the body.
> 
> 
> Q: What's Glen's best book?
> 
> A: Depends on who you ask.  Some love The Tower of Fear, others favor The
> Dragon Never Sleeps, still more would say The Black Company.  One thing's
> for certain, nobody ever recommends The Swap Academy.
> 
> 
> Q: Why not?
> 
> A: The Swap Academy was an adult book written under a pseudonym (Greg
> Stevens).  It
> has nothing to do with his later work, and is included here only in the
> interest of completeness.
> 
> 
> Q: Is Glen planning on writing any more...
> 
> Dread Empire books?
> A: Highly unlikely.  The originals sold so poorly that it is apparently not
> feasible for him to write any more, though he has said he has plots for
> further books.
> 
> Black Company books?
> A: Possibly.   The ending of Soldiers Live (the latest Chronicle of the
> Black Company) has inspired a healthy debate as to whether another book is
> either possible or even desirable.  However, during a Q&A session at
> Windycon in 1999, Glen was asked about the possibility of starting a new
> fantasy series and admitted, "I had expected to begin, and I would start
> something entirely new, but my agent and my editor both are pressuring me to
> do more Black Company material because they sell so well."
> So there's hope...
> 
> Swordbearer books?
> A: From "A (Pseudo) Interview...:"
> "...I went ahead and wrote two-thirds of one called The Swordbreaker. Then
> the editor got fired and the whole Timescape line folded and I quit working
> on it. Looking at it later, I didn't think what I had done was very good, so
> I ditched the whole project."
> 
> Garrett books?
> A: Yes.  The latest one has reportedly been sent to the editor. 
> 
>     Probably the definitive answer to some of these questions can be found
> in a FAQ Glen himself put out circa 1992 or so:
>      "There will be no sequel to (take your pick) A Matter of Time, The
> Swordbearer, The Dragon Never Sleeps, Tower of Fear, Passage at Arms, The
> Starfishers Trilogy.  Several more titles in the Dread Empire were planned
> at one time but lack of commercial success makes it unlikely any will get
> written."
> 
> 
> Q: What other authors would you recommend for a fan of Cook's?
> 
> A: Many Cook readers look for authors that write with a gritty, realistic
> (for fantasy/sci-fi) feel similar to his.  Some names that have come up,
> repeatedly, on the Glen Cook Mailing List include: Steven Brust (Vlad Taltos
> series), Laurel Hamilton (Anita Blake series), David Gemmell (Drenai
> series), George R. Martin, David Drake, MS Rohan (Winter of the World
> series, Northworld trilogy), Iain M. Banks, Michael Moorcock (Elric of
> Melnibone series), Robert Jordan.
>    This is by no means an exhaustive list.
> 
> 
> BC QUESTIONS:
> 
> The "Black Company" series is Cook's most popular, without a doubt.
> 
> Q: What is Tonk?
> 
> A: A card game played by mercenaries of the Black Company throughout the
> series to pass the time.  The following sites have versions of the rules:
> 
> http://www.gamecabinet.com/rules/Tonk.html
> http://www.bsfs.org/bsfstonk.htm
> 
> 
> Q: Do any maps exist of the world of the Black Company novels?
> 
> A: Cook has never made any official maps, and has indicated he will never do
> so.  Some fan representations can be found at:
> 
> http://www.cofc.edu/~wraggj/blackco/
> 
> http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/Images/MapNorth.GIF
> http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/Images/MapSouth.GIF
> http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/Images/MapShadow.GIF
> 
> Q: Have any video games or RPG's been based on the Black Company novels?
> 
> A: No.  At least, not directly.  
> The games "Myth: The Fallen Lords" and "Myth II: Soulblighter" are not based
> directly on the Black Company series, but the similarities between the two
> are enough to put that whole Lincoln-Kennedy thing to shame.  "Eldon the
> Seer" has a fine page dedicated to just this topic.  You can find it here:
> 
> http://members.tripod.com/~blackco/myth-n-bc.html
> 
> For a time, The Blacksburg Tactical Research Center (BTRC), makers of CORPS,
> attempted to obtain a license for developing a Black Company setting.  It
> was not successful.  From http://www.btrc.com:
> 
> 	"A Black Company setting for CORPS is looking more and more unlikely
> (sigh). The
> license holders, while still expressing interest, have not shown that
> interest by bothering to return my email and phone calls. If you are a fan
> of this series and want to see a game adaptation, email me and them (see
> email address below)."
> 
> The e-mail in question is IMAC100@aol.com, I'm unsure whether to print it or
> not.
>  
> 
> Q: What's Croaker's real name?
> 
> A: Marion Morrison.  Kidding.  It's never stated.
> 
> 
> Q: Who were the Ten Who Were Taken?
> 
> A: From The Black Company:
>      "...I told him about the Domination, and the Dominator and his Lady.
> Their rule had spanned an empire of evil unrivalled in Hell.  I told him
> about the Ten Who Were Taken (of which Soulcatcher was one), ten great
> wizards, near-demigods in their power, who had been overcome by the
> Dominator and compelled into his service.  I told him about the White Rose,
> the lady general who had brought the Domination down, but whose power had
> been insufficient to destroy the Dominator, his Lady, and the Ten.  She had
> interred the lot in a charm-bound barrow somewhere north of the sea."
>      The original Ten Who Were Taken are/were:
> 
>      Soulcatcher      Moonbiter
>      The Howler     The Faceless Man
>      The Limper     Bonegnasher
>      Stormbringer   Nightcrawler
>      Shapeshifter     The Hanged Man
> 
>      Throughout the Books of the North, the original Taken's numbers were
> thinned by infighting and enemy action against the rebellion (in fact, all
> but Soulcatcher, the Howler, and the Limper had died by the end of the
> Battle of Charm).  Several powerful members of the Circle of Eighteen, the
> White Rose's high command, found themselves Taken as well:
> 
>      Whisper   Blister
>      Feather     Creeper
>      Journey    Learned
>      Benefice   Scorn
>      
> 
> Q: Who were the four Senjak sisters?
> 
> A: 
> Dorotea - The youngest daughter.  Real name of The Lady.
> 
> Ardath - Name by which the Dominator knew Lady.  In actuality, one of Lady's
> sisters, who was killed before the ascent of the Dominator.
> 
> Credence - Married to Barthelme of Jaunt.  Died when Jaunt was taken by the
> Dominator and the Lady.
> 
> Sylith - Swept away when the River Dream flooded.  Body never found.  Widely
> believed to be the real name of the Taken Soulcatcher.
> 
> 
> Q: Who the hell is the 3rd female Taken?
> 
> A: From The Black Company:
>      "Three of the Taken are female, but which are which only the Lady
> knows.  We call them all he."
> 
>      The two Taken we know to be female are Soulcatcher and Stormbringer. 
> Moonbiter?  Nightcrawler?  I need to research the archives a little more,
> but other can feel free to enlighten me.
> 
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
> 
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
> 


************************************************************************** 
* "If hostility to men causes Lesbianism, then it seems to me that in a  *
*  male-dominated society, Lesbianism is a sign of mental health."       *
*                             -- Martha Shelley, Notes of a              *
*                                Radical Lesbian (1969)                  *
**************************************************************************


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From: Mike Martin <Mike.Martin@mckessonaps.com>
Subject: RE: RE: (glencook-fans) SPOILER deaths in SOLDIERS
Date: 17 Aug 2000 12:03:27 -0500

I gotta agree with this one. Heck, If I were Howler, that's how I would have
done it.

mike


-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2000 9:16 AM


SPOILER













>>What if the Howler's power was so rooted in his handicap that when
Shivetya "cured" him, it stripped him of some of his power. It would be just
like him. The golem doesn't care what happens in the different worlds.<<

They stated specifically that Howler's condition resulted after he was
already an accomplished sorceror.  But with the well staged deaths that have
happened throughout the series (specifically by Taken) makes me note two
things:

1.  It was dark when the shadows were killing.  No one SAW Howler bite the
bullet.
2.  One ordinary, mundane soldier survived, and there wasn't a very powerful
(and unpanicked) sorceror there to confirm that wasn't just an illusion.

I know it's a stretch...but....Howler had to be planning for an escape since
he was healed.  Wouldn't he expect the confusion of attacking the Great
General to be a good chance...the Shadows just adding to it's perfection.



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From: CookReader@aol.com
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Enough on Jordan!
Date: 17 Aug 2000 22:02:24 EDT


In a message dated 8/14/00 10:43:42 AM, harrissg@slu.edu writes:

>Well, instead of over-reacting to the means (comparsion with Jordan) to
>this particular end (the nature of the singular qualities of Cook), how
>about discussing the thesis I advanced for the specific nature of the
>difference in Cook's cycle, to wit, the use of an organization of
>changing personnel as the protagonist that carries the moral burden of
>the cycle?

Why not? Because I'm not a literary deconstructionist or literary critic,
but since you ask I will try. (Oh, and I don't think I over-reacted, maybe
I was a little more blunt than need be, but no where near overreaction).

Anyway, back to the highbrow English hashing. I would have to question
how you are using the word "cycle."

cy*cle [1] (noun)

[Middle English cicle, from Late Latin cyclus, from Greek kyklos circle, 
wheel, cycle -- more at WHEEL]

First appeared 14th Century

 1 : an interval of time during which a sequence of a recurring succession of 
events or phenomena is completed

 2 a : a course or series of events or operations that recur regularly and 
usu. lead back to the starting point

   b : one complete performance of a vibration, electric oscillation, current 
alternation, or other periodic process

   c : a permutation of a set of ordered elements in which each element takes 
the place of the next and the last becomes first

 3 : a circular or spiral arrangement: as

   a : an imaginary circle or orbit in the heavens

   b : WHORL

   c : RING 10

 4 : a long period of time : AGE

 5 a : a group of poems, plays, novels, or songs treating the same theme

   b : a series of narratives dealing typically with the exploits of a 
legendary hero

Most of the definitions above fit better with Jordan than Cook (in my
understanding of the second author and ignorance of the first). But I'd like 
you
to define it a little further befor I make an incorrect assumption. Only the 
fifth
definition really fits Cook and only the second addresses your next point.

>Does the company, actually, fit the literary trope of a protagonist on a
>journey of moral discovery?   If so, is this actually a unique invention
>of Cook's, or does it have literary antecedents?  Is it a successful
>device on its own merits, or does the cycle work in spite of, not
>because of, this feature?

First, I would say that the Company does meet the criterion of being the
protagonist, but I would have to question whether or not it is on any "journey
of moral discovery." Perhaps if we can have anti-heros we can also have
journeys of immoral discovery, or more accurately, amoral discovery.

If anyone in the company has learned anything it would have to be Croaker
and he does not stay with the company, so he might be the exception to
the group protagonist. Most anyone else who could have learned from this
journey was killed, but the company still goes on. Is it any better off
morally than when it left Beryl?

The group protagonist is not a thing unique to Cook. I've brought up Cormac
McCarthy's _Blood Meridian_ on this group befor (I won't rehash it). It is
my belief that this is the closest to the BC you can get by another author.
It has a character I would be willing to put up against any Taken (he'd show
Soulcatcher a good time, put her up wet, and leave her wondering when he'd
be back) and it has a character that is as "innocent" and out of place as
Croaker. Good book, and it does meet your criteria of a group protagonist.

I do not think that the idea of a group protagonist works as well as Cook
would have liked. Perhaps in the North, but by the time we get to the South
we care too much about many of the characters to give equal time to the
group as a whole. Hell, Water Sleeps might as well have been called "Sleepy
Uses a Small Portion of a Decimated Company to Kick Ass in a Very Scooby-
Doo Way." Most of the books of the South abandon the convention of the
group protagonist and you start to get a lot more history, emotions, and
personal feats of daring-do.

Face it, had Croaker bit it somewhere around the end of the White Rose
there wouldn't be any books of the South. Do you even think any of the
characters would still hang around each other? At some point the
primary characters subsumed the minor ones and the camera from the
trenches turned into the manipulations of the powers-that-be. By the
end of Water Sleeps you have a private that worked her way up the ranks
in charge, but you no longer get a view of the Company as a whole. Do
people even like their captain? Did they like Croaker when he was?
We had a better feel for the characters as a whole in the North,
once south we get brief glimpses of some, but mostly we just follow
one guy around as he flies from battle to battle or world to world.


****Spoilers for SL if you continue*****









By the end of SL did you even care what happened to the company? Or did you
just want to know what happened to Croaker, Lady, and the rest? I can't even
remember the guy who took over the Company's name (junior). I really don't
think the company was anything special by the end of these books, at that 
point
it was going entirely on momentum, history, and reputation. But the people in
charge can't even read the annals, they don't intend to return to Khatovar, 
and
none are originals or even connected to those that were.

I've always admired these books for the fact that they seem braver than most.
The author can kill characters whenever the fiction requires it without 
sacrificing
the main protagonist, but the longer he kept a character around the less able
he was able to do it. In my opinion, by killing away like Cook did in the end 
of SL
he's effectively killed the Company. Those that are left will probably disband
around harvest time or kick some warlord ass and set themselves up for
good, but they won't be the company regardless.

Well, I think I've addressed your questions, but if I missed any points let me
know. Just don't use the phrase "sign and cosign," and we'll get along fine.
But please do define cycle.

christopher....




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From: PDMohney@aol.com
Subject: (glencook-fans) WTT for With Mercy Toward None
Date: 17 Aug 2000 22:10:12 EDT

This is the last of the novels that I need.  I have four books, autographed, 
that I'd be willing to trade any *two* for Mercy.

Black Company
Shadows Linger
Cold Copper Tears
An Ill Fate Marshalling

Please contact me privately at pdmohney@aol.com, and thanks!

Pete

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From: schew@interzone.com (Steve Chew)
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL SPOILERS The Company as Protagonist
Date: 17 Aug 2000 23:45:52 -0400 (EDT)

>
>First, I would say that the Company does meet the criterion of being the
>protagonist, but I would have to question whether or not it is on any "journey
>of moral discovery." Perhaps if we can have anti-heros we can also have
>journeys of immoral discovery, or more accurately, amoral discovery.
>
>If anyone in the company has learned anything it would have to be Croaker
>and he does not stay with the company, so he might be the exception to
>the group protagonist. Most anyone else who could have learned from this
>journey was killed, but the company still goes on. Is it any better off
>morally than when it left Beryl?
>
	I'd say it is.  It now fights for what it thinks is "right" 
rather than doing the bidding of another without question.  Not that 
what the BC thinks of as "right" is all that nice...


>
>Face it, had Croaker bit it somewhere around the end of the White Rose
>there wouldn't be any books of the South. Do you even think any of the
>characters would still hang around each other? At some point the
>
	Certainly Croaker was the reason for traveling toward Khatovar.
The annals basically come out and say it directly.


>primary characters subsumed the minor ones and the camera from the
>trenches turned into the manipulations of the powers-that-be. By the
>
	We never really saw the grunt's perspective.  We just saw 
the annalist's.  When the annalist was powerful within the company
that's the viewpoint we got.


>end of Water Sleeps you have a private that worked her way up the ranks
>in charge, but you no longer get a view of the Company as a whole. Do
>people even like their captain? Did they like Croaker when he was?
>We had a better feel for the characters as a whole in the North,
>once south we get brief glimpses of some, but mostly we just follow
>one guy around as he flies from battle to battle or world to world.
>
	We did that in the North too, but the annalist just didn't 
happen to be as close to the BC powers in the north.  We only got
a feel for those characters which the annalist knew.


>
>By the end of SL did you even care what happened to the company? Or did you
>just want to know what happened to Croaker, Lady, and the rest? I can't even
>
	Are you saying that you cared more for the BC in the North as
a company, disregarding the characters you got to see through Croaker's
eyes?  The annalist made us care about who he/she cared about.  It's
possible that Croaker was closer to the guys in the north due to his
position than those in the south.  That closeness may be what is coming
across.


>remember the guy who took over the Company's name (junior). I really don't
>think the company was anything special by the end of these books, at that 
>point it was going entirely on momentum, history, and reputation. But the 
>people in charge can't even read the annals, they don't intend to return 
>to Khatovar, and none are originals or even connected to those that were.
>
	That was kind of the point wasn't it?  The BC has always carried
on with or without a particular individual.  Sometimes its history (the
past annals) was important to those in charge, sometimes they weren't.
Only Croaker made the company into the Khatovar goal-oriented machine.
He also made it realize that it can choose its own path, if it wants to,
though at no small cost.  That might be it's greatest discovery.


>I've always admired these books for the fact that they seem braver than most.
>The author can kill characters whenever the fiction requires it without 
>sacrificing
>the main protagonist, but the longer he kept a character around the less able
>he was able to do it. In my opinion, by killing away like Cook did in the end 
>of SL
>he's effectively killed the Company. Those that are left will probably disband
>around harvest time or kick some warlord ass and set themselves up for
>good, but they won't be the company regardless.
>
	I didn't get that feeling.  I think Suvrin and Tobo and those
who have no where else to go (who seem to always make up the core of the
BC) will continue on.  Perhaps successfully, perhaps not.

				Steve


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From: WinB@aol.com
Subject: (glencook-fans) Goblin a Shadowmaster?
Date: 18 Aug 2000 09:46:08 EDT

Right before the battle at the Stair of Tear, Goblin and One-Eye mix it up a bit. Consider this...

"They were off, and damned be the fool who got in their way. Shadows scattered round One-Eye, wriggling across the earth like a thousand hasty serpents."

Now, before you jump all over me, I know that Goblin and One-Eye's work is mostly illusion, but you've got to admit, it's a great case of...

foreshadowing!

Boo! Boo! Boo!

Win

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From: Steve Harris <HARRISSG@SLU.EDU>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Enough on Jordan!
Date: 18 Aug 2000 12:13:17 -0500 (CDT)

Christopher,

I think my usage "cycle" was pretty clearly right where you put it:

"a series of narratives dealing typically with the exploits of a
legendary hero"

I make bold to use the word "cycle" for something which pretends to be 
legendary (as the Black Company is in the fictional world it inhabits),
rather than something which really is legendary in the real world; but the
literary category seems to me to fit.

"I would have to question whether or not it is on any "journey
of moral discovery." Perhaps if we can have anti-heros we can also have
journeys of immoral discovery, or more accurately, amoral discovery."

I was using "journey of moral discovery" in a broadened sense of the word
"moral", meaning "having to do with the subjects appreciation of its the
subject's place in the universe".  Thus, it could just as easily be 
immoral or amoral as "moral" in the narrow sense "fitting to a prevailing
ethical standard".

It strikes me that that sense of its place in the world is very much an
important element in the whole saga--a sense which does, indeed, change
considerably over the course of years.  In Beryl, the Company is nothing
more than a group hiring out to the highest local bidder, with not even a
fully operational sense of staying bought.  In the course of the the years
in service to the Lady, the officer corps rethinks this position and,
remarkably, is able to sell it to the rest (well, to the long-term brothers
who manage to escape from Juniper):  They worry about whose side they are on,
in terms of which side will be better for the world, should it win.

"The Company" consists solely of a handful, having participated fully in that
decision, by the time they head south.  The reformulated company in the south
is shaped largely in Croaker's moral vision--a strong sense of connection to
the history of the company, stronger than what had prevailed in the north.
Most importantly, Croaker's vision of a journey--of going on to Khatovar--is
accepted by the Company; and, what is more, it is willing to thrash objectively
bad guys to get there, and to visit some measure of vengeance on anyone else
who stands in their way or betrays them, but it is has no conception of selling
out to just anyone.  The war against the Shadowmasters is perceived not just
as pushing through "those guys in our way", but as positive good that they are
accomplishing for the people of the region.

The Company under Sleepy is formulated largely around revenge and saving the
Captured--a different moral vision than has heretofore motivated the Company,
more narrowly focused than in the preceding years.  There is a change yet
again, in the years spent in other planes, which we see only out the corners
of our eyes, since we follow more the actions of the rescued Old Crew than we
do of Sleepy's command.  But the change is very evident.  It has two 
components (not altogethr compatible, and this may be a structural weakness
in the last book):

1) Saving The World (from the shadows off the plane)--and this means Sleepy's
and Croaker's world, not necessarily any other

2) Going Aviking--a raid in force on another world (Sleepy's), followed by
retreat home.

The sense of moral journey is not entirely invested in the Company; the
most interesting journey, and the only one that is satisfyingly progressive
is that of Croaker (though Lady's is interesting as well).  The Company wanders
around in moral space, ending up perhaps not all that far from where it was 
when we entered the saga--but it has gone through enormous changes along the
way, and it shapes the moral climate in which the officers must operate; it
provides the backdrop upon which the quandaries of the officers are played out.

Yes, I *do* care about the future of the Company--I want to know why they
follow their officers and what they're going to do when harvest time comes,
if they will continue in a sense of vigilant guard and self-assumed duty of
protectors of the means of future commerce, or if they will feel more disposed
to raid away from home and just be "the guys everyone is afraid of".  That is
the moral question left hanging.

Steve


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From: "JM Rhodes" <jammers@netzero.net>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Enough on Jordan!
Date: 18 Aug 2000 14:12:01 -0700

When exactly did this change to a semantics and etymology discussion list?
I'm not one to complain about off-topic stuff usually, in fact, it is
ordinarily enjoyable to a degree, but this seemed to push even my
boundaries.

And, yes, the use of cycle is appropriate in this case... not that it really
matters.

John

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Steve Harris
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2000 10:13 AM


Christopher,

I think my usage "cycle" was pretty clearly right where you put it:

"a series of narratives dealing typically with the exploits of a
legendary hero"

I make bold to use the word "cycle" for something which pretends to be
legendary (as the Black Company is in the fictional world it inhabits),
rather than something which really is legendary in the real world; but the
literary category seems to me to fit.

"I would have to question whether or not it is on any "journey
of moral discovery." Perhaps if we can have anti-heros we can also have
journeys of immoral discovery, or more accurately, amoral discovery."

I was using "journey of moral discovery" in a broadened sense of the word
"moral", meaning "having to do with the subjects appreciation of its the
subject's place in the universe".  Thus, it could just as easily be
immoral or amoral as "moral" in the narrow sense "fitting to a prevailing
ethical standard".

It strikes me that that sense of its place in the world is very much an
important element in the whole saga--a sense which does, indeed, change
considerably over the course of years.  In Beryl, the Company is nothing
more than a group hiring out to the highest local bidder, with not even a
fully operational sense of staying bought.  In the course of the the years
in service to the Lady, the officer corps rethinks this position and,
remarkably, is able to sell it to the rest (well, to the long-term brothers
who manage to escape from Juniper):  They worry about whose side they are
on,
in terms of which side will be better for the world, should it win.

"The Company" consists solely of a handful, having participated fully in
that
decision, by the time they head south.  The reformulated company in the
south
is shaped largely in Croaker's moral vision--a strong sense of connection to
the history of the company, stronger than what had prevailed in the north.
Most importantly, Croaker's vision of a journey--of going on to Khatovar--is
accepted by the Company; and, what is more, it is willing to thrash
objectively
bad guys to get there, and to visit some measure of vengeance on anyone else
who stands in their way or betrays them, but it is has no conception of
selling
out to just anyone.  The war against the Shadowmasters is perceived not just
as pushing through "those guys in our way", but as positive good that they
are
accomplishing for the people of the region.

The Company under Sleepy is formulated largely around revenge and saving the
Captured--a different moral vision than has heretofore motivated the
Company,
more narrowly focused than in the preceding years.  There is a change yet
again, in the years spent in other planes, which we see only out the corners
of our eyes, since we follow more the actions of the rescued Old Crew than
we
do of Sleepy's command.  But the change is very evident.  It has two
components (not altogethr compatible, and this may be a structural weakness
in the last book):

1) Saving The World (from the shadows off the plane)--and this means
Sleepy's
and Croaker's world, not necessarily any other

2) Going Aviking--a raid in force on another world (Sleepy's), followed by
retreat home.

The sense of moral journey is not entirely invested in the Company; the
most interesting journey, and the only one that is satisfyingly progressive
is that of Croaker (though Lady's is interesting as well).  The Company
wanders
around in moral space, ending up perhaps not all that far from where it was
when we entered the saga--but it has gone through enormous changes along the
way, and it shapes the moral climate in which the officers must operate; it
provides the backdrop upon which the quandaries of the officers are played
out.

Yes, I *do* care about the future of the Company--I want to know why they
follow their officers and what they're going to do when harvest time comes,
if they will continue in a sense of vigilant guard and self-assumed duty of
protectors of the means of future commerce, or if they will feel more
disposed
to raid away from home and just be "the guys everyone is afraid of".  That
is
the moral question left hanging.

Steve


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Lee Childs <childsl@earthlink.net>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Favorite Black Company Villian(s)
Date: 19 Aug 2000 18:04:35 -0700


--------------4F7D45D9DFE62665739E9046
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Folks:
I would be interested in knowing what everyone's favorite villains are
from the Black Company series.  For myself, I liked Soulcatcher, Lady,
Whisper, Feather, Howler, and Mogaba.

Opinions?  Please itemize the names at the top of the email and follow
the list with your reasons.

Lee Childs

--------------4F7D45D9DFE62665739E9046
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
Folks:
<BR>I would be interested in knowing what everyone's favorite villains
are from the Black Company series.&nbsp; For myself, I liked <B>Soulcatcher,
Lady, Whisper, Feather, Howler, and Mogaba.</B>

<P>Opinions?&nbsp; Please itemize the names at the top of the email and
follow the list with your reasons.

<P>Lee Childs</HTML>

--------------4F7D45D9DFE62665739E9046--


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From: "anthony palermo" <thepongo@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: (glencook-fans) SL Question (spoiler)
Date: 20 Aug 2000 15:10:12 -0500

I finished SL earlier this week and, maybe I burned through it too quickly
but I am left with a question:

Who clobbered Tobo and Lady?


Tony




----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 1:29 PM


> I like the idea of the guardian bit. As time goes on, news of the Plain
should reach the other worlds and traffic could start again.
>
> =======================================================================
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>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.


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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Jordan Raney" <jrraney@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL Question (spoiler)
Date: 20 Aug 2000 15:35:28 -0500

I was under the impression that Tobo was just hit from behind by one of the
"new general's" men, when he went to kill the "new general" (whatever his
name is...the pretty boy Singh, that all the women swooned over).  I think
Singh new he was coming and simply ambushed him.

Who hit Lady...now that was debated a few weeks ago, but I don't think an
agreement was ever reached on just who/what it was.  Kina, someone
suggested.

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2000 3:10 PM


> I finished SL earlier this week and, maybe I burned through it too quickly
> but I am left with a question:
>
> Who clobbered Tobo and Lady?
>
>
> Tony
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <WinB@aol.com>
> To: <glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 1:29 PM
> Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) SL Croaker (Spoilers)
>
>
> > I like the idea of the guardian bit. As time goes on, news of the Plain
> should reach the other worlds and traffic could start again.
> >
> > =======================================================================
> >  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> >  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
>
> =======================================================================
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From: "anthony palermo" <thepongo@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL Question (spoiler)
Date: 20 Aug 2000 15:54:09 -0500

Okay.  On Tobo:  That was what I was thinking.  Lady:  Kina?  Huh.


Thanks for the quick response.

Tony
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2000 3:35 PM


> I was under the impression that Tobo was just hit from behind by one of
the
> "new general's" men, when he went to kill the "new general" (whatever his
> name is...the pretty boy Singh, that all the women swooned over).  I think
> Singh new he was coming and simply ambushed him.
>
> Who hit Lady...now that was debated a few weeks ago, but I don't think an
> agreement was ever reached on just who/what it was.  Kina, someone
> suggested.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "anthony palermo" <thepongo@worldnet.att.net>
> To: <glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com>
> Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2000 3:10 PM
> Subject: (glencook-fans) SL Question (spoiler)
>
>
> > I finished SL earlier this week and, maybe I burned through it too
quickly
> > but I am left with a question:
> >
> > Who clobbered Tobo and Lady?
> >
> >
> > Tony
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <WinB@aol.com>
> > To: <glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 1:29 PM
> > Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) SL Croaker (Spoilers)
> >
> >
> > > I like the idea of the guardian bit. As time goes on, news of the
Plain
> > should reach the other worlds and traffic could start again.
> > >
> > >
=======================================================================
> > >  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> > >  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
> >
> >
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> >  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
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From: "Timothy P. Taylor" <tptaylor@genuity.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) SL Question (spoiler)SPOLIER ANSWER
Date: 21 Aug 2000 08:29:48 -0400

I would venture to guses that when Kina (or her avatar buried under the
nameless fortress) was whacked using the spear, that Whatever Link Lady had
forged 2was broken, perhaps not before some leakage came through?

Just a guess.

Tim Taylor

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Jordan Raney
> Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2000 4:35 PM
> To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL Question (spoiler)
>
>
> I was under the impression that Tobo was just hit from behind by
> one of the
> "new general's" men, when he went to kill the "new general" (whatever his
> name is...the pretty boy Singh, that all the women swooned over).  I think
> Singh new he was coming and simply ambushed him.
>
> Who hit Lady...now that was debated a few weeks ago, but I don't think an
> agreement was ever reached on just who/what it was.  Kina, someone
> suggested.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "anthony palermo" <thepongo@worldnet.att.net>
> To: <glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com>
> Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2000 3:10 PM
> Subject: (glencook-fans) SL Question (spoiler)
>
>
> > I finished SL earlier this week and, maybe I burned through it
> too quickly
> > but I am left with a question:
> >
> > Who clobbered Tobo and Lady?
> >
> >
> > Tony
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <WinB@aol.com>
> > To: <glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 1:29 PM
> > Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) SL Croaker (Spoilers)
> >
> >
> > > I like the idea of the guardian bit. As time goes on, news of
> the Plain
> > should reach the other worlds and traffic could start again.
> > >
> > >
> =======================================================================
> > >  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> > >  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
> >
> >
> > =======================================================================
> >  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> >  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
>
> =======================================================================
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From: "Wright Frazier" <khelek@cioe.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL Question (spoiler)
Date: 21 Aug 2000 12:24:06 -0500

lady got clobbered at the same time kina got speared.  Her going down was
the magical/psychic link getting cut between the two of them.

Wright

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2000 3:35 PM


> I was under the impression that Tobo was just hit from behind by one of
the
> "new general's" men, when he went to kill the "new general" (whatever his
> name is...the pretty boy Singh, that all the women swooned over).  I think
> Singh new he was coming and simply ambushed him.
>
> Who hit Lady...now that was debated a few weeks ago, but I don't think an
> agreement was ever reached on just who/what it was.  Kina, someone
> suggested.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "anthony palermo" <thepongo@worldnet.att.net>
> To: <glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com>
> Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2000 3:10 PM
> Subject: (glencook-fans) SL Question (spoiler)
>
>
> > I finished SL earlier this week and, maybe I burned through it too
quickly
> > but I am left with a question:
> >
> > Who clobbered Tobo and Lady?
> >
> >
> > Tony
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <WinB@aol.com>
> > To: <glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 1:29 PM
> > Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) SL Croaker (Spoilers)
> >
> >
> > > I like the idea of the guardian bit. As time goes on, news of the
Plain
> > should reach the other worlds and traffic could start again.
> > >
> > >
=======================================================================
> > >  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> > >  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
> >
> >
> > =======================================================================
> >  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> >  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
>
> =======================================================================
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>



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From: "Wright Frazier" <khelek@cioe.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL Question (spoiler)
Date: 21 Aug 2000 12:28:32 -0500


Also remember it came in from the right side, the same place that goblin
speared her.

> lady got clobbered at the same time kina got speared.  Her going down was
> the magical/psychic link getting cut between the two of them.
>
> Wright
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jordan Raney" <jrraney@mediaone.net>
> To: <glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com>
> Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2000 3:35 PM
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL Question (spoiler)
>
>
> > I was under the impression that Tobo was just hit from behind by one of
> the
> > "new general's" men, when he went to kill the "new general" (whatever
his
> > name is...the pretty boy Singh, that all the women swooned over).  I
think
> > Singh new he was coming and simply ambushed him.
> >
> > Who hit Lady...now that was debated a few weeks ago, but I don't think
an
> > agreement was ever reached on just who/what it was.  Kina, someone
> > suggested.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "anthony palermo" <thepongo@worldnet.att.net>
> > To: <glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2000 3:10 PM
> > Subject: (glencook-fans) SL Question (spoiler)
> >
> >
> > > I finished SL earlier this week and, maybe I burned through it too
> quickly
> > > but I am left with a question:
> > >
> > > Who clobbered Tobo and Lady?
> > >
> > >
> > > Tony
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: <WinB@aol.com>
> > > To: <glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 1:29 PM
> > > Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) SL Croaker (Spoilers)
> > >
> > >
> > > > I like the idea of the guardian bit. As time goes on, news of the
> Plain
> > > should reach the other worlds and traffic could start again.
> > > >
> > > >
> =======================================================================
> > > >  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> > > >  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
> > >
> > >
> > >
=======================================================================
> > >  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> > >  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
> >
> >
> > =======================================================================
> >  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
> >  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
> >
>
>
>
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>



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From: AndersNJ@bscmail.buffalostate.edu
Subject: (glencook-fans) SL thoughts
Date: 21 Aug 2000 13:40:30 -0400

I just finished reading this on saturday and I have to say, it isnt his best
work to late, but I do say that I liked this more than I liked Water Sleeps.

The reason why is I like croakers tone of voice, and even though alot of
things are very ambiguous, and sometimes do not have the level of detail
that one would want, it brought everything to a nice close, and was told
well.

If Glen works on another BC book, I hope it is a past telling or something
out of the regular series. 

Nick

Nicholas Anderson
Computer Support Development Coordinator
Buffalo State College
andersnj@bscmail.buffalostate.edu
http://www.buffalostate.edu/~nick
Fresh in my mind the dream stays
slowly eating away at my mind
It does not like to be kind
But who am I to argue.

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From: Eric Herrmann <shpshftr@xmission.com>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Footers
Date: 21 Aug 2000 11:48:50 -0600

Majordomo is automaticly adding a footer to the end of messages. Perhaps
you've noticed it.

Would you please delete the footer in messages when you reply. I've noticed
they are getting pretty deep in some threads.

Thank you!

Eric Herrmann
<owner-glencook-fans@xmission.com>
<shpshftr@xmission.com>


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From: WinB@aol.com
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL thoughts
Date: 21 Aug 2000 14:43:04 EDT

<The reason why is I like croakers tone of voice, and even though alot of
things are very ambiguous, and sometimes do not have the level of detail
that one would want, it brought everything to a nice close, and was told
well.>

I also noticed that Croaker didn't comment that brothers had fallen without their story being recorded in the Annals. That thread runs all through BC. Two things could contribute to that...

1) Croaker is too old to "keep up." All during BC he was volunteering to stay where the action was. He hated the fact that he had to go on the hunt for Whisper and Limper because it kept him away from Lords.

2) Since learning that Khatovar was destroyed, the Annals became less about the company and more as a cathartic release for himself. In essence, the Annals became his personal diary.

Keep in mind, though, that what we are reading really isn't the Annals of the Black Company. I see the Annals as more of a daily report about the company with a little flair added by the Annalist. Remember an old episode of MASH when Radar was sending in his daily reports saying things like "Klinger valiantly came to the aid of his neighbors"? A true copy of the Annals would start and stop a lot. There would be details about a particular action, then many entries that said "Pickles went on turnip patrol today. Looks like we'll be eating potatoes for a month."

Win


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From: AndersNJ@bscmail.buffalostate.edu
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) SL thoughts
Date: 21 Aug 2000 15:34:14 -0400

now see that is where I disagree.... I feel that the books are pretty mucht
he annals, although there is a little flair added in at times to flesh out
and make it more of a novel.  I say this because when they first found the
coipes of the first volumes he had mentioned that they seemed more of a
tally of stuff then the stories that he was weaving in the books.

And in the north there were constant reminders of how he used to write very
romantic stories on his views of the lady in the annals.

just my view on it.

nick




-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 2:43 PM


I also noticed that Croaker didn't comment that brothers had fallen without
their story being recorded in the Annals. That thread runs all through BC.
Two things could contribute to that...

1) Croaker is too old to "keep up." All during BC he was volunteering to
stay where the action was. He hated the fact that he had to go on the hunt
for Whisper and Limper because it kept him away from Lords.

2) Since learning that Khatovar was destroyed, the Annals became less about
the company and more as a cathartic release for himself. In essence, the
Annals became his personal diary.

Keep in mind, though, that what we are reading really isn't the Annals of
the Black Company. I see the Annals as more of a daily report about the
company with a little flair added by the Annalist. Remember an old episode
of MASH when Radar was sending in his daily reports saying things like
"Klinger valiantly came to the aid of his neighbors"? A true copy of the
Annals would start and stop a lot. There would be details about a particular
action, then many entries that said "Pickles went on turnip patrol today.
Looks like we'll be eating potatoes for a month."

Win


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From: Stacey Harris <harrissg@SLU.EDU>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL thoughts
Date: 21 Aug 2000 14:46:53 -0500

Win,

"what we are reading really isn't the Annals of the Black
Company."

Erm, yes and no.  In BC 1 (ThBlkCom), there is reference made to "the
Annals" in a way that says what we are reading is not the Annals.  But
in BC 2 and, I think, BC 3 (ShaLin, ThWhiRos), there is reference made
explicitly to "these Annals"; in fact Croaker apologizes for making the
Annals as personal as they are.

I'm rereading in sequence and just got to ThSilSpi, so my memory is
pretty sharp on these details for the first three books and not at all
reliable on the later ones.  But I seem to recall something about Lady
signing an entry as Annalist of the Black Company (DreOSte?).

Steve

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From: WinB@aol.com
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL thoughts
Date: 21 Aug 2000 16:06:37 EDT

Erm, yes and no.  In BC 1 (ThBlkCom), there is reference made to "the
Annals" in a way that says what we are reading is not the Annals.  But
in BC 2 and, I think, BC 3 (ShaLin, ThWhiRos), there is reference made
explicitly to "these Annals"; in fact Croaker apologizes for making the
Annals as personal as they are.


Well said. I believe my comments were more in keeping the BC1 since I am in the middle of a re-reading.

Win

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From: CookReader@aol.com
Subject: (glencook-fans) Literary Crit (was Enough on Jordan!)
Date: 21 Aug 2000 21:34:14 EDT


In a message dated 8/18/00 4:19:10 PM, jammers@netzero.net writes:

>When exactly did this change to a semantics and etymology discussion list?

It's always been a semantics list. Most of the best discussion has centered
around a minute point in the text or a new way to view an old passage.

>I'm not one to complain about off-topic stuff usually, in fact, it is
>ordinarily enjoyable to a degree, but this seemed to push even my
>boundaries.

I don't think that discussion was off topic at all. Pretty hard to claim it
was off topic when Cook's characters and books were mentioned in just
about every paragraph (I would point out it was more on-topic than a post
complaining that it wasn't).

And to keep this post on-topic:

>And, yes, the use of cycle is appropriate in this case... not that it really
>matters.

Perhaps you misread what I wrote. I wasn't challenging the appropriatness of
the usage, but rather requesting a definition. I was only trying to clarify a
minor point and to insure the word "cycle" wasn't being used in the context
of "a really long series of books," or some other meaning.

One of the reasons I like Cook is that the majority of his books can actually
support literary criticism or prolonged discussion. In fact, I can only think 
of
one of his books that, in my mind, doesn't stand up (and no, I don't own Swap
Academy).

I would have to agree with you that deconstructing the text is no where near
as fun as reading the books, but after you've exhausted the "I Liked/Disliked
X Book," and the "Who Would Win in a Fight," threads sometimes you're left
with actually having to resort to a serious thread.

Besides, I only did it because I'd been accused of ignoring the previous post.
(So really, the LitCrit wasn't my fault, I didn't start it). I actually wish 
there
were more such posts on this list.

Etymology isn't a bad word. One of the projects I've wanted to start for a 
long
time was to break down the influences in Cook's BC book. Identify the real 
world
religions and myths that went into the books, pick out the various military
sayings and attribute them to the original authors, same with the colorful
slang sayings that are obviously "imported" from our world to Cook's world.

Of course I never find the time to even read.

christopher....


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From: "Lich" <lich@mtco.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Favorite Black Company Villian(s)
Date: 22 Aug 2000 10:01:47 -0500

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C00C1F.FC0B6AA0
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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I love the Limper and his two-dimensional aggressiveness.  Frequently in =
fantasy, evil characters make stupid mistakes that allow the inferior =
heroes to win.  With the villains making such mistakes, the reader is =
forced to suspend his disbelief even more than the fanatsy genre =
requires normally.  How could this sorcerer have become so powerful in =
the first place if he's this stupid?  It quickly becomes obvious that =
the writer simply isn't good enough to be able to get the plot to go =
where he wants, without making the villain of the piece into a =
caricature.

Unlike the villains above, Limper doesn't stand around spouting all his =
secret plans to anyone who will listen, nor does he give his opponents =
any "extra chances" to amuse himself.  He just "destroys them where he =
finds them" and moves on with ruthless efficiency.  However, clever =
writer that he is, Cook writes about how the Limper's smash everything =
in his path mentality allows weaker opponents to prevail against him, =
without requiring the character to be blatantly stupid.  Instead of the =
Limper's weakness being stupidity, he is a vitctim of his own power, and =
centuries of no one being powerful enough to stand against him.  It much =
easier to believe in a character that has lost the capacity for subtle =
trickery after centuries of simply being able to obliterate anyone who =
stood in his way through sheer power.  It is this lack of subtlety, not =
intelligence that makes Limper entertaining, rather than obnoxious.  =
This characteristic is brilliantly displayed in Limper's return to the =
North in the Silver Spike - after abandoning his pursuit of the Lady =
South.  He knows that he's being manipulated and steered, yet each time =
he thinks he's in a position where he can just bull his way through, and =
crush the puny insects how seek to oppose him.  Each time the "puny =
insects" blind-side him, putting him in a position where he's helpless =
to use the awesome power for destruction at his disposal.  The Dominator =
seems much the same, although we don't know him as well. =20

Harden was fun to read about, just because he was such a bad-ass.

First-trilogy Soulcatcher was great because of the dichotomy between her =
human side, and the mantle of being one of the Ten Who Were Taken.

I'd love to know more about the proto-dominator under the tree.  Also, I =
really like Nameless.  Both of these two I like for the simple reason =
that we know so little about them, and I feel that there's a fascinating =
story to be told for each.


  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Lee Childs=20
  To: Glen Cook Fans=20
  Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2000 8:04 PM
  Subject: (glencook-fans) Favorite Black Company Villian(s)


  Folks:=20
  I would be interested in knowing what everyone's favorite villains are =
from the Black Company series.  For myself, I liked Soulcatcher, Lady, =
Whisper, Feather, Howler, and Mogaba.=20
  Opinions?  Please itemize the names at the top of the email and follow =
the list with your reasons.=20

  Lee Childs=20


------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C00C1F.FC0B6AA0
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3018.900" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I love the Limper and his =
two-dimensional=20
aggressiveness.&nbsp; Frequently in fantasy, evil characters make stupid =

mistakes that allow the inferior heroes to win.&nbsp; With the villains =
making=20
such mistakes, the reader is forced to suspend his disbelief even more =
than the=20
fanatsy genre requires normally.&nbsp; How could this sorcerer have =
become so=20
powerful in the first place if he's this stupid?&nbsp; It quickly =
becomes=20
obvious that the writer simply isn't good enough to be able to get the =
plot to=20
go where he wants, without making the villain of the piece into a=20
caricature.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Unlike the villains above, Limper =
doesn't stand=20
around spouting all his secret plans to anyone who will listen, nor does =
he give=20
his opponents any "extra chances" to amuse himself.&nbsp; He just =
"destroys them=20
where he finds them" and moves on with ruthless efficiency.&nbsp; =
However,=20
clever writer that he is, Cook writes about how the Limper's smash =
everything in=20
his path mentality allows weaker opponents to prevail against him, =
without=20
requiring the character to be blatantly stupid.&nbsp; Instead of the =
Limper's=20
weakness being stupidity, he is a vitctim of his own power, and =
centuries of no=20
one being powerful enough to stand against him.&nbsp; It much easier to =
believe=20
in a character that has lost the capacity for subtle trickery after =
centuries of=20
simply being able to obliterate anyone who stood in his way through =
sheer=20
power.&nbsp; It is this lack of subtlety, not intelligence that makes =
Limper=20
entertaining, rather than obnoxious.&nbsp; This characteristic is =
brilliantly=20
displayed in Limper's return to the North in the Silver Spike - after =
abandoning=20
his pursuit of the Lady South.&nbsp; He knows that he's being =
manipulated and=20
steered, yet each time he thinks he's in a position where he can just =
bull his=20
way through, and crush the puny insects how seek to oppose him.&nbsp; =
Each time=20
the "puny insects" blind-side him, putting him in a position where he's =
helpless=20
to use the awesome power for destruction at his disposal.&nbsp; The =
Dominator=20
seems much the same, although we don't know him as well.&nbsp; =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Harden was fun to read about, just =
because he was=20
such a bad-ass.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>First-trilogy Soulcatcher was great =
because of the=20
dichotomy between her human side, and the mantle of being one of the Ten =
Who=20
Were Taken.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I'd love to know more about the =
proto-dominator=20
under the tree.&nbsp; Also, I really like Nameless.&nbsp; Both of these =
two I=20
like for the simple reason that we know so little about them, and I feel =
that=20
there's a fascinating story to be told for each.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:childsl@earthlink.net" =
title=3Dchildsl@earthlink.net>Lee=20
  Childs</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com"=20
  title=3Dglencook-fans@lists.xmission.com>Glen Cook Fans</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, August 19, 2000 =
8:04=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> (glencook-fans) =
Favorite Black=20
  Company Villian(s)</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>Folks: <BR>I would be interested in knowing what =
everyone's=20
  favorite villains are from the Black Company series.&nbsp; For myself, =
I liked=20
  <B>Soulcatcher, Lady, Whisper, Feather, Howler, and Mogaba.</B>=20
  <P>Opinions?&nbsp; Please itemize the names at the top of the email =
and follow=20
  the list with your reasons.=20
  <P>Lee Childs </P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C00C1F.FC0B6AA0--


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From: Stacey Harris <harrissg@slu.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Literary Crit (was Enough on Jordan!)
Date: 22 Aug 2000 00:43:22 -0500

Hi, all,

Christopher's request for more lit-crit type of posts prompts this
thought from me (not really lit-crit, maybe, but a bit more in-depth
than, say "Would Bomanz have made a good Taken"):

Is there an underlying similarity among the military portions of Cook's
writing?  the Black Company, Passage at Arms, Dragon Never Sleeps, Dread
Empire?  

I'm thinking in terms of making the reader appreciate a feel for
sneakery, for tactics of deception--or, at any rate, cleverness.   Been
a while since I've read the non-BC books, but I seem to recall feeling
something of the same in several of them.

Which begs the question--is it really cleverness?  Or are we just *told*
"we were realy sneaky in our attack that day" and the like?  Not as bald
as that usually; but what, really, constitutes cleverness in a fictional
tactician?  The author is free to make the opposition unsuspecting,
naive, never looking too far below the surface, just to make his hero's
strategems succeed.  What, then, inspires us to admire the story-telling
ability of the author, to revel in a feeling that we have been in the
presence of a tale worth the telling, not just because it was well told,
but because it betrayed an intellectual depth we didn't anticipate?

***non-Cook digression***

A cinematic example (which is vivid enough to capture the spirit I am
talking about):  In my mind, the only truly brilliant piece of
story-telling in the Star Wars movies is the opening adventure in the
third one:  Luke arrives, unarmed, in the camp of his enemy (Jabba's
floating cruiser).  He gives his enemy the chance to surrender, while
appearing quite vulnerable.  When the offer is rejected, he turns the
tables, not primarily by means of Jedi magic, but by the sheer cleveness
of having previously secreted his allies among the prisoners--mostly
similarly unarmed and apparently vulnerable.  It is Luke's ability to
rely on the spontaneous invention of his allies--using the very chains
of their captivity as make-shift weapons--that makes for great
story-telling, that makes us (well, me) feel that there is far more here
than super-human mystical powers (which none of us have), but ingenuity
and pluck: things that are far more human-scaled, so they draw us into
the characters much better.

***end digression***

We can't any of us direct sorcerous energies; but we can at least hope
to be clever in the disposition of resources and skilled in the use of
guile where force and persuasion are unavailable to us.  And maybe that
is why we respond so well to that method of derring-do in story
telling--and one reason why Cook is so appealing.

Is the Black Company *really* clever?  Or the Guard in Dragon?  Or
Ragnarsson in Dread Empire? Or whoever-it-is in Passage?  In what is
that cleverness constituted?  

Does Cook out-think the reader, and not just the villain?  And is that
what constitutes admirable cleverness in a hero?

Steve

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From: WinB@aol.com
Subject: (glencook-fans) Continuity Error in BC?
Date: 22 Aug 2000 09:34:07 EDT

Just before the Battle of Charm, and after Croaker is injured, there is a discussion with the Captain about disassociating the Company from Soulcatcher. The Captain says something like "first you're injured, then one of the Taken goes zuzu. And there's that lime thread."

Is this sentence out of order, did Cook miss a scene or did I miss something? As far as I can tell, no Taken goes zuzu between the time Croaker is injured and the conversation. (even though they are all a little zuzu anyway).

Win

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From: "PrimalChrome" <chrome@wwisp.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Continuity Error in BC?
Date: 22 Aug 2000 08:53:19 -0500

I thought he was referring to Limper's actions....


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 8:34 AM


Just before the Battle of Charm, and after Croaker is injured, there is a
discussion with the Captain about disassociating the Company from
Soulcatcher. The Captain says something like "first you're injured, then one
of the Taken goes zuzu. And there's that lime thread."

Is this sentence out of order, did Cook miss a scene or did I miss
something? As far as I can tell, no Taken goes zuzu between the time Croaker
is injured and the conversation. (even though they are all a little zuzu
anyway).

Win

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From: WinB@aol.com
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Continuity Error in BC?
Date: 22 Aug 2000 10:33:59 EDT

The Limper's "treason" would be the best guess, if the sentence order hadn't had the comment after Croaker's injury. It would have been months since Limper was subdued.

Win

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From: Changeling <chnglng@FreeQ.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Continuity Error in BC?
Date: 22 Aug 2000 09:48:50 -0500 (CDT)

Is this sentence before or after Croaker comes out of the tower?

-Changeling

On Tue, 22 Aug 2000 WinB@aol.com wrote:

> The Limper's "treason" would be the best guess, if the sentence order hadn't had the comment after Croaker's injury. It would have been months since Limper was subdued.
> 
> Win
> 
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************************************************************************** 
* "If hostility to men causes Lesbianism, then it seems to me that in a  *
*  male-dominated society, Lesbianism is a sign of mental health."       *
*                             -- Martha Shelley, Notes of a              *
*                                Radical Lesbian (1969)                  *
**************************************************************************


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From: WinB@aol.com
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Continuity Error in BC?
Date: 22 Aug 2000 11:29:09 EDT

After. And after he learns that Darling thwarted the attack on Raven.

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From: Changeling <chnglng@FreeQ.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Continuity Error in BC?
Date: 22 Aug 2000 10:43:28 -0500 (CDT)

Well, if it's after Croaker left the Tower then the Taken going zuzu would
refer to the attack on Croaker by the shadowy form that he shot with the
bow that Lady gave him, wouldn't it?

-Changeling

On Tue, 22 Aug 2000 WinB@aol.com wrote:

> After. And after he learns that Darling thwarted the attack on Raven.
> 
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************************************************************************** 
* "If hostility to men causes Lesbianism, then it seems to me that in a  *
*  male-dominated society, Lesbianism is a sign of mental health."       *
*                             -- Martha Shelley, Notes of a              *
*                                Radical Lesbian (1969)                  *
**************************************************************************


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From: WinB@aol.com
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Continuity Error in BC?
Date: 22 Aug 2000 11:53:20 EDT

I'm not sure, since I don't have the book in front of me, but I believe the sentence was "first the attack on Croaker, then one of the Taken goes zuzu."

Win

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From: Rich Kim <rich-kim@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Continuity Error in BC?
Date: 22 Aug 2000 14:54:49 +0000

On Tuesday, August 22 2000, 15:34:07 WinB@aol.com wrote:

>Is this sentence out of order, did Cook miss a scene or did I miss something? 
>As far as I can tell, no Taken goes zuzu between the time Croaker is injured 
>and the conversation. (even though they are all a little zuzu anyway).
>
The quote goes like this "What happened in the hills.  No accident, eh?  The 
Lady summons you and half an hour later, one of the Taken goes zuzu.  Then 
there's your accident in the Tower...."

Croaker was summoned by Lady before the carpet went to pick them up from the 
raid, and it took about half an hour for the anonymous Taken to show up on the 
carpet with the accidental green mist.  This is before he went to see Lady and 
before the accident in the tower.


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From: WinB@aol.com
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Continuity Error in BC?
Date: 22 Aug 2000 16:13:15 EDT

Thanks for clearing this up. I was sure someone would look up the passage before I got home.

Win

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From: "Mark Debes" <mdebes@fauquierbank.com>
Subject: RE:  Re: (glencook-fans) Favorite Black Comp
Date: 22 Aug 2000 17:04 -0400

From the Books of the North, Soulcatcher was definitely my favorite villain.
 She very rarely showed the powers that made her one of the Taken, she used
her vast understanding of the human psyche to manipulate her opponents into
doing what she wanted.  The way she orchestrated the takedown of Raker, and
manipulated the Limper into a position where Lady had to take him out of the
game was fascinating.

An interesting point on how the Limper, with no one to oppose him, lost the
ability for subtlety and went for pure strength to carry him through.
 Soulcatcher exhibited many of the same characteristics in the last two books
of the South.

I'm not sure who my favorite villain is in the South.

 -----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 11:01 AM

 << File: body.htm >>
I love the Limper and his two-dimensional aggressiveness.  Frequently in
fantasy, evil characters make stupid mistakes that allow the inferior heroes
to win.  With the villains making such mistakes, the reader is forced to
suspend his disbelief even more than the fanatsy genre requires normally.
How could this sorcerer have become so powerful in the first place if he's
this stupid?  It quickly becomes obvious that the writer simply isn't good
enough to be able to get the plot to go where he wants, without making the
villain of the piece into a caricature.

Unlike the villains above, Limper doesn't stand around spouting all his
secret plans to anyone who will listen, nor does he give his opponents any
"extra chances" to amuse himself.  He just "destroys them where he finds
them" and moves on with ruthless efficiency.  However, clever writer that he
is, Cook writes about how the Limper's smash everything in his path mentality
allows weaker opponents to prevail against him, without requiring the
character to be blatantly stupid.  Instead of the Limper's weakness being
stupidity, he is a vitctim of his own power, and centuries of no one being
powerful enough to stand against him.  It much easier to believe in a
character that has lost the capacity for subtle trickery after centuries of
simply being able to obliterate anyone who stood in his way through sheer
power.  It is this lack of subtlety, not intelligence that makes Limper
entertaining, rather than obnoxious.  This characteristic is brilliantly
displayed in Limper's return to the North in the Silver Spike - after
abandoning his pursuit of the Lady South.  He knows that he's being
manipulated and steered, yet each time he thinks he's in a position where he
can just bull his way through, and crush the puny insects how seek to oppose
him.  Each time the "puny insects" blind-side him, putting him in a position
where he's helpless to use the awesome power for destruction at his disposal.
 The Dominator seems much the same, although we don't know him as well.

Harden was fun to read about, just because he was such a bad-ass.

First-trilogy Soulcatcher was great because of the dichotomy between her
human side, and the mantle of being one of the Ten Who Were Taken.

I'd love to know more about the proto-dominator under the tree.  Also, I
really like Nameless.  Both of these two I like for the simple reason that we
know so little about them, and I feel that there's a fascinating story to be
told for each.


  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Lee Childs
  To: Glen Cook Fans
  Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2000 8:04 PM
  Subject: (glencook-fans) Favorite Black Company Villian(s)


  Folks:
  I would be interested in knowing what everyone's favorite villains are from
the Black Company series.  For myself, I liked Soulcatcher, Lady, Whisper,
Feather, Howler, and Mogaba.
  Opinions?  Please itemize the names at the top of the email and follow the
list with your reasons.

  Lee Childs



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From: Lee Childs <childsl@earthlink.net>
Subject: (glencook-fans) The attacks on Croaker
Date: 22 Aug 2000 21:10:32 -0700

Croaker was attacked twice.  One of the large tower weapons fell on him. =
 Later, a
sorcerer masked in a cloud of darkness struck at him.  I always belived t=
hat
Soulcatcher had a hand in this.

THE BLACK COMPANY page 244
"The Captain shook his head.  'Hang on to that sense of humor.  The Lady =
wants to
see you.  Personally.'"
"My mind hurtled around like a herd of mice fleeing a cat.  In seconds I =
was
soaked with sweat."
THE BLACK COMPANY page 248
"Men shouted below.  I turned to look=85Threw up an arm.  Slam!  Impact t=
hrew me a
dozen feet, spinning.  My guard guide yelled.  The Tower roof came up to =
meet me.
Men shouted and ran away."
"I rolled, tried to get up, slipped in a slick of blood.  Blood!  My bloo=
d!"
THE BLACK COMPANY page 249
"[The Guard Captain said,] 'Hold him down.  Foster.  What happened?''
"[Foster said,] 'One of the weapons fell of the upper tier.  It went off =
when it
fell.'"
"[Croaker said,] 'Wasn't no accident.  Somebody wanted to kill me.'"
THE BLACK COMPANY page 282
"[The Lady said,] 'That evil tried to kill you three times, physician.  T=
wice for
fear of your knowledge, once for fear of your future.'"
"That woke me up.  'My future?'"
"[The Lady said,] 'The Taken sometimes glimpse the future.  Perhaps this
conversation was foreseen.'"
"A quarter way up the ramp I got a funny feeling.  Halfway there I realiz=
ed what
it was.  One-Eye's amulet!  My wrist was burning=85Taken!  Danger!"
"A cloud of darkness reared out of the night, from some imperfection in t=
he side
of the pyramid.  It spread like the sail of a ship, flat, and moved towar=
d me.  I
responded the only way I could.  With an arrow."
"And a long wail surrounded me, filled me more with surprise than rage, m=
ore
despair than agony.  The sheet of darkness shredded.  Something manshaped=
 scuttled
across the slope."


Rich Kim wrote:

> On Tuesday, August 22 2000, 15:34:07 WinB@aol.com wrote:
>
> >Is this sentence out of order, did Cook miss a scene or did I miss som=
ething?
> >As far as I can tell, no Taken goes zuzu between the time Croaker is i=
njured
> >and the conversation. (even though they are all a little zuzu anyway).


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From: "Brooke A. Wheeler" <bawheeler@MEDIAONE.NET>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Reminder: Questions for Cook
Date: 26 Aug 2000 21:03:33 -0700

As I mentioned a couple of weeks ago, I'll be attending the WorldCon in Chicago
(Aug. 31st - Sep. 4th) and I was planning to get a book signed by Glen Cook. If
anyone has any questions they're DYING to ask the man, send them to me and I'll
do my best... PLEASE though, if any of your questions contain SPOILERS for
_Soldiers_Live_, note it in the email subject line. I have been saving this book
to read on the plane trip and don't want it ruined. Any questions with spoilers
I'll download onto my Palm and read once I arrive. :-)

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From: "Mark Debes" <mdebes@fauquierbank.com>
Subject: Out of Office AutoReply:  (glencook-fans) Reminder: Questions for
Date: 27 Aug 2000  0:09 -0400

I will be out of the office until  Tuesday, August 29 .  Please contact Diane
Coppage, Krista Baisden, or Nicki Neil if you need immediate assistance.

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From: "Anna Taylor" <annat@med.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Reminder: Questions for Cook
Date: 27 Aug 2000 00:06:33 -0400

I will be away from the office from 8/25/00-9/8/00.  Susan Davey in the =
Residency Education Office can be contacted for anything requiring a =
response before I return (sdavey@umich.edu)  764-6875.

-Anna

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From: "Anna Taylor" <annat@med.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Out of Office AutoReply:  (glencook-fans) Reminder:
Date: 27 Aug 2000 00:08:34 -0400

I will be away from the office from 8/25/00-9/8/00.  Susan Davey in the =
Residency Education Office can be contacted for anything requiring a =
response before I return (sdavey@umich.edu)  764-6875.

-Anna

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From: "Anna Taylor" <annat@med.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Reminder: Questions for Cook
Date: 27 Aug 2000 00:09:04 -0400

I will be away from the office from 8/25/00-9/8/00.  Susan Davey in the =
Residency Education Office can be contacted for anything requiring a =
response before I return (sdavey@umich.edu)  764-6875.

-Anna

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From: "Anna Taylor" <annat@med.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Out of Office AutoReply:  (glencook-fans)
Date: 27 Aug 2000 00:11:17 -0400

I will be away from the office from 8/25/00-9/8/00.  Susan Davey in the =
Residency Education Office can be contacted for anything requiring a =
response before I return (sdavey@umich.edu)  764-6875.

-Anna

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From: "Anna Taylor" <annat@med.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Reminder: Questions for Cook
Date: 27 Aug 2000 00:11:47 -0400

I will be away from the office from 8/25/00-9/8/00.  Susan Davey in the =
Residency Education Office can be contacted for anything requiring a =
response before I return (sdavey@umich.edu)  764-6875.

-Anna

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From: "Anna Taylor" <annat@med.umich.edu>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Re: Out of Office AutoReply: 
Date: 27 Aug 2000 00:14:04 -0400

I will be away from the office from 8/25/00-9/8/00.  Susan Davey in the =
Residency Education Office can be contacted for anything requiring a =
response before I return (sdavey@umich.edu)  764-6875.

-Anna

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From: schew@interzone.com (Steve Chew)
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Reminder: Questions for Cook
Date: 27 Aug 2000 20:54:18 -0400 (EDT)

>
>As I mentioned a couple of weeks ago, I'll be attending the WorldCon in Chicago
>(Aug. 31st - Sep. 4th) and I was planning to get a book signed by Glen Cook. If
>anyone has any questions they're DYING to ask the man, send them to me and I'll
>do my best... PLEASE though, if any of your questions contain SPOILERS for
>_Soldiers_Live_, note it in the email subject line. I have been saving this book
>to read on the plane trip and don't want it ruined. Any questions with spoilers
>I'll download onto my Palm and read once I arrive. :-)
>

No spoiler:

	I would be curious to know how much of the outcome of Soldiers
Live had he planned when he was writing the first books of the south?  
And if the answer is "not much," then when did he start planning the
"Glittering Stone" plots?
	Thanks!

				Steve


-- 
Steve Chew - schew@interzone.com - http://www.interzone.com
"Bother" said Pooh.  "Eeyore, load two photon torpedoes and
 lock phasers on the Heffalump.  Piglet, meet me in transporter
 room two."

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From: Matthew Roche <rocheml@cerebusnm.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Reminder: Questions for Cook
Date: 27 Aug 2000 23:07:46 -0600

i have a question... i've just finished reading the last dread empire novel
for the first time (an ill fate marshalling) and i am curious as to what it
would take to get him to finish the series. i'll bet we could come up with
ten or twenty thousand dollars if we needed to...

;-]

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2000 12:04 AM


As I mentioned a couple of weeks ago, I'll be attending the WorldCon in
Chicago
(Aug. 31st - Sep. 4th) and I was planning to get a book signed by Glen Cook.
If
anyone has any questions they're DYING to ask the man, send them to me and
I'll
do my best... PLEASE though, if any of your questions contain SPOILERS for
_Soldiers_Live_, note it in the email subject line. I have been saving this
book
to read on the plane trip and don't want it ruined. Any questions with
spoilers
I'll download onto my Palm and read once I arrive. :-)

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From: Peter Leitch <pleitch@attglobal.net>
Subject: (glencook-fans) alternate books
Date: 28 Aug 2000 12:46:15 -0700

I've just finished the first of a new series by a new author.   I picked it up
as a Bantam paperback and it is called "Gardens of the Moon" by Steven Erikson.

I can't believe this author hasn't read the Black Company series.  There are
just too many similarities between the characters and the plots of Cook's  books
and this first one by Erikson.   I would be curious to find if this author
hadn't asked Cook if he could borrow some ideas.  That would be a question to
ask him at the convention.

Has anyone else come across this series yet?  I would definetly recommend it to
Black Company fans that are looking for something in a similar universe.


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From: Jay DeSimone <jdesimon1@earthlink.net>
Subject: (glencook-fans) SL Spoiler/question
Date: 30 Aug 2000 20:00:03 -0700

Hello, all.

I am brand new to the list, and have just (about an hour ago) finished
reading Soldiers Live.  Everything is clear to me, until the end...what
exactly happened with Croaker and Shivetya?  Do they inhabit each
other's minds?  Does S get to be Croaker until the body dies, and then
resume being himself?  I read this several times, and am totally not
clear.

I have noticed at different times in reviews I have read by readers that
they dislike the changing voice, and that the books covering the
Captivity years were not as worth reading as the others, because Croaker
and the rest of the captured were not in them.  Personally, I found that
refreshing.  The fact thet Cook can switch the voice of the writing that
well is incredible.  Also, I found support for a longer series in this,
since it is about the Black Company, and not Croaker.

I hope I'm not saying things that have been discussed, buried, dug up,
rediscussed, burned to a crisp and scattered in the wind.

Thanks!

Jay

--
The future of Politics:
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From: Donnafair@aol.com
Subject: (glencook-fans) Re:  SL Spoiler/question * Spoilers *
Date: 30 Aug 2000 20:11:53 EDT

In a message dated 8/30/00 5:02:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
jdesimon1@earthlink.net writes:

<< and have just (about an hour ago) finished
 reading Soldiers Live.  Everything is clear to me, until the end...what
 exactly happened with Croaker and Shivetya?  Do they inhabit each
 other's minds?  Does S get to be Croaker until the body dies, and then
 resume being himself?  I read this several times, and am totally not
 clear.
  >>

I just finished SL today (and am currently catching up on archived messages 
for the past few weeks!).

My impression was that this was Shivetya's release from immortality.   When 
Croaker's body goes, Shivetya goes to whatever his afterlife is.

I liked the changing voices.  It took awhile to figure out what was going on 
with Murgen during his time as annalist, but what a fascinating concept once 
I got it.    And I liked Sleepy's voice (though no one truly compares to 
Croaker), though that might be a product of my own gender.  ;)   It was a bit 
disappointing to have Sleepy killed offstage, and I was pretty sad about 
Murgen buying it by a shadow (or was it a fireball that got him in the 
tower?).

Mogaba sure got what was coming to him, in the end.

Lady's reference to her mother as Sleeping Beauty was a neat little bit.  
Boy, I wish he'd write the story of Lady & Soulcatcher growing up!  Wouldn't 
that be something.

Donna

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From: Jay DeSimone <jdesimon1@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re:  SL Spoiler/question * Spoilers *
Date: 30 Aug 2000 20:14:16 -0700



Donnafair@aol.com wrote:


> My impression was that this was Shivetya's release from immortality.
> When Croaker's body goes, Shivetya goes to whatever his afterlife is.

mine too.  but what happened?  did they switch minds?  Is croaker's mind now in
Shivetya's body, immortal?

>
> I liked the changing voices.  It took awhile to figure out what was going on
> with Murgen during his time as annalist, but what a fascinating concept once
> I got it.    And I liked Sleepy's voice (though no one truly compares to
> Croaker), though that might be a product of my own gender.  ;)   It was a bit
> disappointing to have Sleepy killed offstage, and I was pretty sad about
> Murgen buying it by a shadow (or was it a fireball that got him in the
> tower?).
>
> Mogaba sure got what was coming to him, in the end.
>
> Lady's reference to her mother as Sleeping Beauty was a neat little bit.
> Boy, I wish he'd write the story of Lady & Soulcatcher growing up!  Wouldn't
> that be something.
>
> Donna
>
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--
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http://www.votenader.com/downloads/nader18SM.jpg
http://www.votenader.com/downloads/winona1future.jpg



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From: "Sam Felice" <SFelice@getty.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL Spoiler/question
Date: 30 Aug 2000 17:19:33 -0700

S

P

O

I

L

E

R

S



My take on the ending of the book is that Shivetya and Croaker switched =
"souls" but not necessarily all of their minds.  Which is a BIT wishy-washy=
 to me, but I still like it.  What I take it to mean is that when =
Croaker's body dies, Shivetya dies along with it.  Which is what he wanted =
all along.  But "Croaker" will be inhabiting the body of Shivetya with all =
of the powers that go along with it.  The thing I found to be a bit =
"wishy-washy" is the part where Croaker gets to see all of Shivetya's =
memories just by inhabiting his body, and yet he seems to still retain all =
of his OWN memories.  I would think that they'd either stay with the mind =
OR the body, and not both.  But who knows.  Maybe Shivetya's body is a =
receptacle for all of the knowledge that he's gotten over the years, and =
that this is what Croaker is now tapping into by being Shivetya.

Either way, you're right.  It does make for the possibility of a longer =
series.  And I think that is the best possible outcome of this book.  Cook =
has really set himself up great for future "Black Company" novels.  He can =
now go back and do the history of the Black Company from Khatovar on.  He =
can go do other characters' histories.  He can do tales from the other =
worlds off of the plain of Glittering Stone.  And it gets him out of the =
annalist perspective.  He's now given himself an omnipresent perspective =
to write from, while still being able to use Croaker's "voice".  This, I =
think, will make many Black Company fans (including myself, for sure) very =
happy.

I, like most BC fans, liked Croaker's books the best.  The first 3 books =
are my favorites by far.  In part, I think (and as others have said) =
because I've read them more than the others.  But also because of the old, =
familiar characters, and Croaker's voice, and just the whole story line of =
the books is better.  That doesn't mean I have disliked any of the books.  =
I think it's the best series I've ever read.  But at the same time, I'm =
glad it's over in its current form.  As much as I enjoy it, I don't want =
it to turn into another WoT-like saga that goes on and on forever with no =
end in sight. =20

Soldiers Live is my favorite of the Glittering Stone books because it does =
wrap up the books of the south nicely.  Now we have North, South, Spike, =
and whatever series that Cook decides to do from the perspective of the =
Shivetya/Croaker creature.  It'll be different.  It'll be good (I hope).  =
It'll be in the world of the Black Company, and that's what matters most.



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From: Jay DeSimone <jdesimon1@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL Spoiler/question
Date: 30 Aug 2000 20:29:16 -0700



Sam Felice wrote:

>   But at the same time, I'm glad it's over in its current form.

Is it over in its current form? Suvrin has expressed much interest in keeping Company tradition...he will pick a new annalist, and the tradition would continue.  Cook has many options here...he can assume the disembodied narrator, and delve into company past, he can continue the annalist voice...the possibilities are endless.  Or, he could do both, and dovetail them together once in a while.  My hopes for the future of the series remain bright, regardless of where it goes...I haven't been disappointed so far, and don't think I will be.


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From: "Sam Felice" <SFelice@getty.edu>
Subject: (glencook-fans) BC world vs our world  (Was SL Spoiler/question)
Date: 30 Aug 2000 17:36:49 -0700

>Lady's reference to her mother as Sleeping Beauty was a neat little bit. =
=20
>Boy, I wish he'd write the story of Lady & Soulcatcher growing up!  =
Wouldn't=20
>that be something.

This jogged my memory to something that I'd been thinking of after I read =
this book, that has kind of bugged me at the back of my mind all through =
the BC books.  And that is that language and mythos and just little =
details that are part of "our world" but seem to creep into the world of =
the Black Company. =20

I have two theories on this.  One is very simply that Glen isn't all that =
concerned about "anachronism" or making sure that he doesn't borrow things =
from our world for use in his.  That's the simplest explanation, but it =
leaves the series open for nitpickers to say "Hey, why do they have a =
Sleeping Beauty in their world?  That's an Earth myth.  Where would it =
come from in the world of the Black Company?"  There are a lot of small =
examples of this throughout the books.  Even in the first book, which I'm =
now re-reading, I can spot several areas where someone more picky than I =
might say "hey, that doesn't belong in their world, unles their world is =
somehow the future, or an alternate future, of ours". =20

Now, my second theory doesn't go so far as to suggest that our world and =
their world are the SAME some how, but it does suggest a relationship.  My =
second theory is that with all of the worlds off of the plain of Glittering=
 Stone, and with all of the similarities that they list between worlds =
(Croaker often describes that there are similar land masses and other =
geological similarities) that our world is actually one of the other =
worlds off of the plain, but with it's shadowgate broken.  In each world, =
there are things that are very similar (such as the landscape, to the =
degree that it started out similar and has changed due to geological =
forces).  Other similarities might even pop up in mythology and religion =
and such.  That would explain the decidedly "Indian" or "middle-eastern" =
flavor to the books of the south, and the almost European feel to the =
books of the north (and it even makes sense geographically).

It's probably more likely the first explanation.  Or perhaps in the first =
6 books it was like that, but it changed in Bleak Seasons when Glen =
invented the idea of the plain of Glittering Stone.  Who knows.  I just =
thought it was something interesting to think about.



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From: "Sam Felice" <SFelice@getty.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL Spoiler/question
Date: 30 Aug 2000 17:42:23 -0700

>Is it over in its current form? Suvrin has expressed much interest in =
keeping Company tradition...he=20
>will pick a new annalist, and the tradition would continue. =20

Exactly.  Croaker even says that Suvrin is taking the company to the Land =
of Unknown Shadows and perhaps will create a new start there.  It's a =
parallell to the first company coming from Khatovar.  Perhaps they didn't =
originally come from Khatovar.  Maybe they came TO Khatover over 400 years =
before they LEFT from Khatovar, but the Annals portray the company as =
coming from Khatovar.  The new annals, 400 years from now, may show the =
company as fleeing into the Land of Unknown Shadows FROM Taglios.  There =
may be another Croaker 400 years hence who will be obsessed with reaching =
Taglios, and before he gets there will discover an immortal Golem on the =
plain, who just wants to die.  A nice bit of recurring history there, I =
think.  So, even if the tradition of the company continues, it will be a =
different company and therefore a different story (even more different =
that between the books of the south and the north.  At leas there, the =
character continuity was more present).

>Cook has many options here...he can=20
>assume the disembodied narrator, and delve into company past, he can =
continue the annalist=20
>voice...the possibilities are endless.  Or, he could do both, and =
dovetail them together once in a=20
>while.  My hopes for the future of the series remain bright, regardless =
of where it goes...I haven't=20
>been disappointed so far, and don't think I will be.

Me neither.  I will be happy with the history of the company.  I'll be =
happy with seeing what becomes of the "new" company.  I'll be happy with =
Croaker looking in on the other worlds off of the plain.  Or fixing the =
shadowgates and going to some of them.  Whatever.  I'm sure Cook will do a =
good job.  (At least I hope he will.  Obviously we won't know until we =
read them).



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From: "R. Hyrum Savage" <ashaman@flashcom.net>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) SL Spoiler/question
Date: 30 Aug 2000 18:24:18 -0700

I've been reading all of the SL theories and ideas since I finished the book
and one thing that strikes me is that almost everyone thinks that GC is
going to keep writing Black Company books. When I finished SL, it felt like
the end of the Black Company (in terms of stories) and felt like it was in
fact the end of the series. Almost everyone we've grown to care about is
dead, Croaker gets his ultimate wish, and it doesn't look like there's a
whole lot left to write about. (Other than starting over with a whole new
BC, or delving into the past, etc.)

What do the rest of you think is going to happen? Are we going to get more
Black Company, or something new?

Hyrum Savage
http://www.otherworlds.cx

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Sam Felice
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 5:20 PM


S

P

O

I

L

E

R

S



My take on the ending of the book is that Shivetya and Croaker switched
"souls" but not necessarily all of their minds.  Which is a BIT wishy-washy
to me, but I still like it.  What I take it to mean is that when Croaker's
body dies, Shivetya dies along with it.  Which is what he wanted all along.
But "Croaker" will be inhabiting the body of Shivetya with all of the powers
that go along with it.  The thing I found to be a bit "wishy-washy" is the
part where Croaker gets to see all of Shivetya's memories just by inhabiting
his body, and yet he seems to still retain all of his OWN memories.  I would
think that they'd either stay with the mind OR the body, and not both.  But
who knows.  Maybe Shivetya's body is a receptacle for all of the knowledge
that he's gotten over the years, and that this is what Croaker is now
tapping into by being Shivetya.

Either way, you're right.  It does make for the possibility of a longer
series.  And I think that is the best possible outcome of this book.  Cook
has really set himself up great for future "Black Company" novels.  He can
now go back and do the history of the Black Company from Khatovar on.  He
can go do other characters' histories.  He can do tales from the other
worlds off of the plain of Glittering Stone.  And it gets him out of the
annalist perspective.  He's now given himself an omnipresent perspective to
write from, while still being able to use Croaker's "voice".  This, I think,
will make many Black Company fans (including myself, for sure) very happy.

I, like most BC fans, liked Croaker's books the best.  The first 3 books are
my favorites by far.  In part, I think (and as others have said) because
I've read them more than the others.  But also because of the old, familiar
characters, and Croaker's voice, and just the whole story line of the books
is better.  That doesn't mean I have disliked any of the books.  I think
it's the best series I've ever read.  But at the same time, I'm glad it's
over in its current form.  As much as I enjoy it, I don't want it to turn
into another WoT-like saga that goes on and on forever with no end in sight.

Soldiers Live is my favorite of the Glittering Stone books because it does
wrap up the books of the south nicely.  Now we have North, South, Spike, and
whatever series that Cook decides to do from the perspective of the
Shivetya/Croaker creature.  It'll be different.  It'll be good (I hope).
It'll be in the world of the Black Company, and that's what matters most.



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Jay DeSimone <jdesimon1@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL Spoiler/question
Date: 30 Aug 2000 21:27:39 -0700

Well, The Glittering Stone cycle has ended, but no announcement has come forth
to say that the series in general has ended.  Since his fan base for this series
is growing, he may continue writing it.  Who knows.  I'd put money on the fact
that glen gets this list, but I'm sure he isn't going to tell us yet...and I'm
sure he would make the announcement through TOR.  But I know I sure would like
him to keep going.

Jay

"R. Hyrum Savage" wrote:

> I've been reading all of the SL theories and ideas since I finished the book
> and one thing that strikes me is that almost everyone thinks that GC is
> going to keep writing Black Company books. \


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From: "Jordan Raney" <jrraney@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL Spoiler/question
Date: 30 Aug 2000 20:54:56 -0500

> I've been reading all of the SL theories and ideas since I finished the
book
> and one thing that strikes me is that almost everyone thinks that GC is
> going to keep writing Black Company books. When I finished SL, it felt
like
> the end of the Black Company (in terms of stories) and felt like it was in
> fact the end of the series. Almost everyone we've grown to care about is
> dead, Croaker gets his ultimate wish, and it doesn't look like there's a
> whole lot left to write about. (Other than starting over with a whole new
> BC, or delving into the past, etc.)

I agree, and I was also surprised to see how many others don't follow this
train of thought.  I felt like Soldier's Live closed things up very nicely
and in fact I don't even want to see anything close to the Company that we
read about in SL.  I put the book down and just felt satisfied that things
were over, and that it was a good time for it to end.  He can't write BC
books eternally, and he should quit at a point that has such great closure.
Just my opinion of course.


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From: "Jordan Raney" <jrraney@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL Spoiler/question
Date: 30 Aug 2000 20:59:39 -0500



> Well, The Glittering Stone cycle has ended, but no announcement has come
forth

Yes, the Glittering Stone cycle has ended...and when it ended, it wrapped up
the WHOLE series, not just the Glittering Stone cycle.  That's the
difference with Glittering Stone and Books of the South.  I can't even place
in my mind what the end of the Books of the South was.

> to say that the series in general has ended.  Since his fan base for this
series
> is growing, he may continue writing it.  Who knows.  I'd put money on the
fact
> that glen gets this list, but I'm sure he isn't going to tell us yet...and
I'm

From what I hear he doesn't even have a computer.  I thought someone
mentioned (on the list) about him being almost uncomfortable with fans.
*shrug*  Just from what I remember from reading interviews and such, I don't
think he cares all that much about fans or their opinions.


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From: "Vonder Haar, Peter C." <Peter.VonderHaar@bakerhughes.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) SL Spoiler/question
Date: 31 Aug 2000 08:55:35 -0500

> -----Original Message-----
> From: R. Hyrum Savage [mailto:ashaman@flashcom.net]
>
> I've been reading all of the SL theories and ideas since I 
> finished the book
> and one thing that strikes me is that almost everyone thinks 
> that GC is
> going to keep writing Black Company books. When I finished 
> SL, it felt like
> the end of the Black Company (in terms of stories) and felt 
> like it was in
> fact the end of the series.
> 
> What do the rest of you think is going to happen? Are we 
> going to get more
> Black Company, or something new?

 Aha, this looks like a job for the FAQ.[1]

 Q: Is Glen planning on writing any more Black Company books?

 A: : Possibly.  The ending of Soldiers Live (the latest Chronicle of the
Black Company) has inspired a healthy debate as to whether another book is
possible or even desirable.  However, during a Q&A session at Windycon in
1999, Glen was asked about the possibility of starting a new fantasy series
and admitted, "I had expected to begin, and I would start something entirely
new, but my agent and my editor both are pressuring me to do more Black
Company material because they sell so well."

 So the answer is: wait and see.

 Pete
 [1] The "non-formatted, still-needs-to-be-cleaned-up,
haven't-touched-in-two-weeks-'cause-I've-been-in-Maine" FAQ.  I should be
able to put together the final version this weekend.

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From: "Ray Washburn" <chrome@wwisp.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL Spoiler/question
Date: 31 Aug 2000 08:53:18 -0500

I have to agree with Sam in that I'm glad it's over in its current form.

I never was all that happy with what the Company was turning into in
_Soldier's_Live_.  It seems to have lost itself and evolved into a unit that
I really wasn't that interested in.  Hopefully if there are any more Black
Company books by Cook, they'll be historical or like the SilverSpike where
they're covering events elsewhere.



----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 10:29 PM




Sam Felice wrote:

>   But at the same time, I'm glad it's over in its current form.

Is it over in its current form? Suvrin has expressed much interest in
keeping Company tradition...he will pick a new annalist, and the tradition
would continue.  Cook has many options here...he can assume the disembodied
narrator, and delve into company past, he can continue the annalist
voice...the possibilities are endless.  Or, he could do both, and dovetail
them together once in a while.  My hopes for the future of the series remain
bright, regardless of where it goes...I haven't been disappointed so far,
and don't think I will be.






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From: Aaron Contreras <Aaron.Contreras@sierra.com>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) SL Spoiler/question
Date: 31 Aug 2000 08:50:29 -0700

Can't see any more Black Company stories, at least not following Suvrin and
gang.  Seriously, Suvrin was a non-character.  It is pretty obvious Cook
didn't plan on doing any more while writing SL - he kills off interesting
character after character.

Funny how my favorite authors always tell such incomplete stories. I think
it makes it somehow more real to me.

I'd be happy if he told the story of the Domination, or just another tale in
the same world.  I was growing tired of 'Companyspeak' - that cynical,
always insulting and joking tone of voice just about anyone who hangs out
with the company eventually adopts.  Props to the Nyueng Bao (God I hope I
spelled that right) for keeping their culture intact through their long (and
ultimately very unsatisfying) association with the Company.

I dunno, I feel Murgen, Sahra, Uncle Doj, Booboo and even Sleepy deserved a
happy ending...or at least resolution.

Aaron

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 6:53 AM


I have to agree with Sam in that I'm glad it's over in its current form.

I never was all that happy with what the Company was turning into in
_Soldier's_Live_.  It seems to have lost itself and evolved into a unit that
I really wasn't that interested in.  Hopefully if there are any more Black
Company books by Cook, they'll be historical or like the SilverSpike where
they're covering events elsewhere.



----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 10:29 PM




Sam Felice wrote:

>   But at the same time, I'm glad it's over in its current form.

Is it over in its current form? Suvrin has expressed much interest in
keeping Company tradition...he will pick a new annalist, and the tradition
would continue.  Cook has many options here...he can assume the disembodied
narrator, and delve into company past, he can continue the annalist
voice...the possibilities are endless.  Or, he could do both, and dovetail
them together once in a while.  My hopes for the future of the series remain
bright, regardless of where it goes...I haven't been disappointed so far,
and don't think I will be.






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From: Eric Herrmann <shpshftr@xmission.com>
Subject: (glencook-fans) Glen Cook Biography
Date: 31 Aug 2000 09:53:26 -0600

Here is an interesting opportunity.

Glen Cook is scheduled to be guest of honor at Albacon 2000,
<http://www.albacon.org>, to be held October 6-8, 2000 in Schenectady, NY.

Albacon would like a short biography (say, 1000 words) for their program
book. I declined to do it personally, but I thought the list might want to
do it as an individual or group project.

> A group bio would be great.  Try to have it more than just the basic
> biographical items.  Personal anecdotes or things like "How Glen Cook changed
> my life" ;) would be what I'm looking for.

Albacon needs it by September 22. So we have three weeks.

Do we want to do this as a group or as individual submissions? We could make
it a contest. Prizes, prizes, prizes!

Any comments?

-- 
Eric Herrmann
<shpshftr@xmission.com>
<owner-glencook-fans@xmission.com>


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From: "Sam Felice" <SFelice@getty.edu>
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) SL Spoiler/question
Date: 31 Aug 2000 09:00:21 -0700

>I've been reading all of the SL theories and ideas since I finished the =
book
>and one thing that strikes me is that almost everyone thinks that GC is
>going to keep writing Black Company books. When I finished SL, it felt =
like
>the end of the Black Company (in terms of stories) and felt like it was =
in
>fact the end of the series. Almost everyone we've grown to care about is
>dead, Croaker gets his ultimate wish, and it doesn't look like there's a
>whole lot left to write about. (Other than starting over with a whole new
>BC, or delving into the past, etc.)
>
>What do the rest of you think is going to happen? Are we going to get =
more
>Black Company, or something new?


My feeling on the current state of the Black Company as it is at the end =
of Soldiers Live is that this is the end of the Black Company as we know =
it.  They have come full circle.  They may not have returned to Khatovar, =
but as I mentioned before, they may not have actually started from =
Khatovar in the first place.  It may be a bit of romanticizing, but I =
think that the company has always existed in some form or another.  That =
every 400 years or so, they pass through the plain of Glittering Stone =
into a new world and begin again in a new incarnation.  I think that =
whatever Suvrin does with the company will be completely different, and =
yet the same in some ways.  The ideals of the Company will remain alive.  =
The keeping of the annals, their devotion to duty, and their preference to =
fight only when it becomes necessary will keep them around in SOME =
incarnation forever.  But OUR Black Company is done.  All but Croaker are =
dead of the original Company.  And even though he's got the Lady and =
Soulcatcher for company, anything they do from here on out will not be as =
the Black Company.  And whatever Suvrin and Tobo and their gang do, they =
will be starting afresh in a new world.  And should they decide to retain =
the name of the Black Company, it still won't be the same company.

As for my personal thoughts as to what will happen if Glen writes more in =
the Black Company universe, I would HOPE that he would use the power that =
he has in the Shivetya/Croaker creature to its fullest.  Shivetya's =
memories combined with Croaker's voice would make for some great storytelli=
ng.  The story of Khatovar.  The origins of the Company.  Where did =
One-eye and Goblin and Silent come from?  The history of the Dominator and =
the Lady and the Taken.  There are SO many stories in this universe that =
would be just awesome to read.  And I know that part of the mytique of =
reading the Black Company series was that there were these characters =
whose history we didn't know, but who we could identify with and come to =
love nonetheless.  But now that it's over with, I don't think it will ruin =
anything to go back and tell their tales.  I think it'd make for some =
great fun.

I, personally, hope Cook doesn't start up with more tales of the Company =
in its current format.  So, technically, I guess, I think that there =
shouldn't be any more Black Company books.  Rather, I think there should =
be book in the Black Company universe.  But more importantly, I think that =
Cook should be the one to write them.  I don't want to see the universe =
ruined like the Dragonlance universe was by hack writers telling the tales =
of other characters in the universe.  Or the way the Star Wars universe =
has been ruined by many of the books that have come out lately.  If Cook =
doesn't write them, I won't read them.  But I sure hope he does.



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From: "Sam Felice" <SFelice@getty.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Glen Cook Biography
Date: 31 Aug 2000 09:07:33 -0700

>Do we want to do this as a group or as individual submissions? We could =
make
>it a contest. Prizes, prizes, prizes!

That sounds cool.  I'd love to submit something on my personal introduction=
 to Glen Cook and the Black Company.  I realize that I'm probably in the =
minority having never read any Cook except for BC (though I fully intend =
to do so, right after I finish re-reading BC again. heh).  But since it's =
his most popular work, and is what people usually come to first when =
reading Cook, I think it makes a good starting point for any bio about =
Glen.

I would think that individual submissions would be easier to do, but =
perhaps take out snippets of each one?  Or submit the top three or =
something? =20

Do you want us to just post them to the list, or email them to you for =
posting on the website?



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From: WinB@aol.com
Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) SL Spoiler/question
Date: 31 Aug 2000 12:24:13 EDT

Personally, since it appears that *most* people enjoyed the books of the North more than the South, Cook should focus there.

As others have mentioned, the Domination would be perfect. Hell, even George Lucas has gone back and explained how things came to be. Wouldn't everyone like to know how Limper got that scar from Shifter? Who was the woman that became Shifter's staff? A novel (or group of novels) with chapters from each of the well-known Taken's viewpoint...how they tried to stay out of the clutches of the Dominator...how Lady and the Dominator got together...what the Taken did to catch the eye of the Dominator. The old saying is "Hold your friends close, but your enemies closer." Perhaps they were warring with the Dominator for domination, so to speak. 

And who wouldn't want to see the playboy that was the Limper in his early days. Can you image him partying in Opal, making ties with Raven's great-great-great grandfather (and making time with Shifter's woman)?

Properly executed, such a series would appeal to current readers through references in the early books. We would spend time on this list trying to figure out which Taken so-and-so becomes, before the end of the series. New readers would go through the series and then want to move on to the "old" series. Like Star Wars, the series should end some years prior to the existing books...probably when the original White Rose puts down the Dominator and his minions.

And, like The Silver Spike, a separate book could be written that brings Croaker into the Company and up to Beryl. Maybe even two viewpoints...the previous Annalist, talking about how this new kid has promise, and taking him under his wing. This has the potential to be a trilogy as well, with One-eye being recruited.

Okay, Glen...you've got six more books to write. I can wait 12 to 18 years to see it finished. How about everyone else?

Win

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From: "Ray Washburn" <chrome@wwisp.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL Spoiler/question
Date: 31 Aug 2000 11:36:15 -0500

>> Where did One-eye and Goblin and Silent come from?  <<

Honestly I'd love to hear a story about One-eye and TomTom when they were
about a hundred years younger....  Maybe the murder and escape from the
wizard that apprenticed/enslaved them.....and their subsequent joining the
Company to escape retribution.

I've always liked the TomTom character....even though he only lasts a few
chapters.




----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2000 11:00 AM


My feeling on the current state of the Black Company as it is at the end of
Soldiers Live is that this is the end of the Black Company as we know it.
They have come full circle.  They may not have returned to Khatovar, but as
I mentioned before, they may not have actually started from Khatovar in the
first place.  It may be a bit of romanticizing, but I think that the company
has always existed in some form or another.  That every 400 years or so,
they pass through the plain of Glittering Stone into a new world and begin
again in a new incarnation.  I think that whatever Suvrin does with the
company will be completely different, and yet the same in some ways.  The
ideals of the Company will remain alive.  The keeping of the annals, their
devotion to duty, and their preference to fight only when it becomes
necessary will keep them around in SOME incarnation forever.  But OUR Black
Company is done.  All but Croaker are dead of the original Company.  And
even though he's got the Lady and Soulcatcher for company, anything they do
from here on out will not be as the Black Company.  And whatever Suvrin and
Tobo and their gang do, they will be starting afresh in a new world.  And
should they decide to retain the name of the Black Company, it still won't
be the same company.

As for my personal thoughts as to what will happen if Glen writes more in
the Black Company universe, I would HOPE that he would use the power that he
has in the Shivetya/Croaker creature to its fullest.  Shivetya's memories
combined with Croaker's voice would make for some great storytelling.  The
story of Khatovar.  The origins of the Company.  Where did One-eye and
Goblin and Silent come from?  The history of the Dominator and the Lady and
the Taken.  There are SO many stories in this universe that would be just
awesome to read.  And I know that part of the mytique of reading the Black
Company series was that there were these characters whose history we didn't
know, but who we could identify with and come to love nonetheless.  But now
that it's over with, I don't think it will ruin anything to go back and tell
their tales.  I think it'd make for some great fun.

I, personally, hope Cook doesn't start up with more tales of the Company in
its current format.  So, technically, I guess, I think that there shouldn't
be any more Black Company books.  Rather, I think there should be book in
the Black Company universe.  But more importantly, I think that Cook should
be the one to write them.  I don't want to see the universe ruined like the
Dragonlance universe was by hack writers telling the tales of other
characters in the universe.  Or the way the Star Wars universe has been
ruined by many of the books that have come out lately.  If Cook doesn't
write them, I won't read them.  But I sure hope he does.



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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Eric Herrmann <shpshftr@xmission.com>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Glen Cook Biography
Date: 31 Aug 2000 17:04:11 -0600

> I would think that individual submissions would be easier to do, but perhaps
> take out snippets of each one?  Or submit the top three or something?

Here are my straw men. Feel free to make suggestions.
I'd like to in either case have something to Albacon by Sept 15.

If we are doing individual:

I'll take submissions privately for a week, then put them up on the website
for voting for 3 days and then send the top 5 on to Albacon. One entry per
person. Albacon can then choose a winner. I'll chip in a copy of "Heirs of
Babylon" as a prize. (Any others want to sweeten the pot?)

If Albacon doesn't choose any, then we'll come up with a new plan.

If we are doing group:

I'll take submissions of ideas and changes and put them up on the website
daily. The list can respond to what they like and don't like. After 10 days
or so, we'll submit the biography to Albacon. No prizes.

> Do you want us to just post them to the list, or email them to you for posting
> on the website?

If we are doing individual, all posts should be private to me.

If we are doing group, post to where it makes sense.

I'd like to achieve a consensus of which we are doing by Saturday night.

-- 
Eric Herrmann
<shpshftr@xmission.com>
<owner-glencook-fans@xmission.com>




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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Sam Felice" <SFelice@getty.edu>
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Glen Cook Biography
Date: 31 Aug 2000 16:10:22 -0700

My vote, then, is for individual.  Mostly because just for fun I went and =
wrote a short bio.  Not so much a bio that you'd see in the back jacket of =
his books.  You can get that...in the back jacket of his books (duh. =
hehe).  But more of a bio of my experience with his books.  If individual =
turns out to be the vote, I'll email it to you on Tuesday (which is the =
next day I'll be at work).  If the vote is for group, I'll toss my ideas =
out here for folks to do with as they please. :)



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