From: Michael Llaneza Subject: (glencook-fans) it's funny what you hear first thing in the morning Date: 06 Oct 2002 08:44:55 -0700 I just heard part of a TV commercial for an auto dealership here in the Bay Area, Stuart Infiniti. Naturally I thought, " they must mean SETH Infinite". It's early. ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe G Kushner" Subject: (glencook-fans) RE: glencook-fans-digest V1 #213 Date: 06 Oct 2002 12:21:54 -0500 So is there a source where all of the chonology and characters of the various Black Company novels are listed? Something like a whose who? ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brooke Wheeler Subject: (glencook-fans) Just finished the Swordbearer Date: 14 Oct 2002 01:12:38 -0700 My sister bought a copy from Glen at ConJose, so I borrowed it from her. Highly recommended... I really enjoyed his Black Company series, but this is as good or better. From the ending, I have to wonder if he ever intended/intends to write a sequel... If so, I'd definitely buy it. If you haven't read this one yet, run, don't walk, to your local library or used book store and pick up a copy. (I also read Tower of Fear, and while it's not bad, it doesn't measure up to his BC stuff IMHO.) ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "S Townsend" Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Just finished the Swordbearer Date: 14 Oct 2002 06:11:56 -0500 The swordbearer was always one of my favorites, and at windycon one year I asked Glen if was going to write a sequel. My take was that he considered it a rookie effort, he seemed almost embarrased about it. He didn't seem interested in writing a sequel. Granted, this was 1986 when I talked to him. But he hasn't apparently changed his mind since..... -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Brooke Wheeler Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 3:13 AM My sister bought a copy from Glen at ConJose, so I borrowed it from her. Highly recommended... I really enjoyed his Black Company series, but this is as good or better. From the ending, I have to wonder if he ever intended/intends to write a sequel... If so, I'd definitely buy it. If you haven't read this one yet, run, don't walk, to your local library or used book store and pick up a copy. (I also read Tower of Fear, and while it's not bad, it doesn't measure up to his BC stuff IMHO.) ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/3/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.394 / Virus Database: 224 - Release Date: 10/3/2002 ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David George" Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Just finished the Swordbearer Date: 14 Oct 2002 06:54:42 -0500 Wow. Glad to hear someone besides me liked it. I think I still like BC better but I enjoyed Swordbearer too. I have heard people come down on it pretty hard, if I recall aright. -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Brooke Wheeler Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 2:13 AM My sister bought a copy from Glen at ConJose, so I borrowed it from her. Highly recommended... I really enjoyed his Black Company series, but this is as good or better. From the ending, I have to wonder if he ever intended/intends to write a sequel... If so, I'd definitely buy it. If you haven't read this one yet, run, don't walk, to your local library or used book store and pick up a copy. (I also read Tower of Fear, and while it's not bad, it doesn't measure up to his BC stuff IMHO.) ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sam Roberts Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Just finished the Swordbearer Date: 14 Oct 2002 08:54:43 -0700 I'm afraid I'm one of those that didn't like it. It was several years ago that I last tried to read it, but I didn't even finish it I disliked it so much. I just remember that it seemed to me to be too much of a bunch of typical fantasy elements slapped together haphazardly and a plot that seemed forced and moved along too quickly. I love BC and Garrett and the only other stuff of Cooks besides those and Swordbearer that I've gotten my hands on has been the Darkwar trilogy and I very much liked those, so I choose to look on Swordbearer as an aberration. Sam Roberts "On two occasions I have been asked [by Members of Parliament], `Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." - Charles Babbage (inventor of the Difference Engine, an early mechanical computer) -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 4:55 AM Wow. Glad to hear someone besides me liked it. I think I still like BC better but I enjoyed Swordbearer too. I have heard people come down on it pretty hard, if I recall aright. -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Brooke Wheeler Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 2:13 AM My sister bought a copy from Glen at ConJose, so I borrowed it from her. Highly recommended... I really enjoyed his Black Company series, but this is as good or better. From the ending, I have to wonder if he ever intended/intends to write a sequel... If so, I'd definitely buy it. If you haven't read this one yet, run, don't walk, to your local library or used book store and pick up a copy. (I also read Tower of Fear, and while it's not bad, it doesn't measure up to his BC stuff IMHO.) ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kisc Kempson" Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Just finished the Swordbearer Date: 13 Oct 2002 23:22:48 -0600 I'll second that motion ... I bought what looks like a really old copy from B&N or Borders, I forget which, and just reread it the other week. Quite an interesting book, and really affected some of the ideas I have for the novel I'm pretending that I'm putting together. Kisc > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Brooke > Wheeler > Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 2:13 AM > To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > Subject: (glencook-fans) Just finished the Swordbearer > > > My sister bought a copy from Glen at ConJose, so I borrowed it from her. > Highly recommended... I really enjoyed his Black Company series, but > this is as good or better. From the ending, I have to wonder if he ever > intended/intends to write a sequel... If so, I'd definitely buy it. If > you haven't read this one yet, run, don't walk, to your local library or > used book store and pick up a copy. (I also read Tower of Fear, and > while it's not bad, it doesn't measure up to his BC stuff IMHO.) > > > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kisc Kempson" Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Just finished the Swordbearer Date: 13 Oct 2002 23:25:09 -0600 I think you should try it again. Maybe I just don't read enough fiction that is older than 1990. It seems to me that he took many standard elements of fiction and tried to twist them every which way. Kisc > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Sam Roberts > Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 9:55 AM > To: 'glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com' > Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Just finished the Swordbearer > > > I'm afraid I'm one of those that didn't like it. It was several years ago > that I last tried to read it, but I didn't even finish it I disliked it so > much. I just remember that it seemed to me to be too much of a bunch of > typical fantasy elements slapped together haphazardly and a plot > that seemed > forced and moved along too quickly. > > I love BC and Garrett and the only other stuff of Cooks besides those and > Swordbearer that I've gotten my hands on has been the Darkwar > trilogy and I > very much liked those, so I choose to look on Swordbearer as an > aberration. > > > Sam Roberts > > "On two occasions I have been asked [by Members of Parliament], `Pray, Mr. > Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers > come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of > confusion of ideas > that could provoke such a question." - Charles Babbage (inventor of the > Difference Engine, an early mechanical computer) > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: David George [mailto:d.s.george@verizon.net] > Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 4:55 AM > To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Just finished the Swordbearer > > > Wow. Glad to hear someone besides me liked it. I think I still like BC > better but I enjoyed Swordbearer too. I have heard people come down on > it pretty hard, if I recall aright. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Brooke > Wheeler > Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 2:13 AM > To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > Subject: (glencook-fans) Just finished the Swordbearer > > My sister bought a copy from Glen at ConJose, so I borrowed it from her. > > Highly recommended... I really enjoyed his Black Company series, but > this is as good or better. From the ending, I have to wonder if he ever > intended/intends to write a sequel... If so, I'd definitely buy it. If > you haven't read this one yet, run, don't walk, to your local library or > > used book store and pick up a copy. (I also read Tower of Fear, and > while it's not bad, it doesn't measure up to his BC stuff IMHO.) > > > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > > > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David Chisholm" Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Just finished the Swordbearer Date: 14 Oct 2002 11:36:45 -0500 I didn't like it very much either. Until recently I had only read BC and Garrett both of which I enjoy. IMO, Swordbearer had only small nuggets of the Cook we've come to expect. However I also think there was a vast improvement between 'A Shadow of All Night Falling' and 'All Darkness Met'. IMO, this demonstrates that Cook was experimenting and growing (maybe even discovering) his technique/art. Small survey: If the above is true, at what point (book or trilogy) do you think he finally perfected his writing style and storytelling? David > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of > Sam Roberts > Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 10:55 AM > To: 'glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com' > Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Just finished the Swordbearer > > > I'm afraid I'm one of those that didn't like it. It was > several years ago that I last tried to read it, but I didn't > even finish it I disliked it so much. I just remember that > it seemed to me to be too much of a bunch of typical fantasy > elements slapped together haphazardly and a plot that seemed > forced and moved along too quickly. > > I love BC and Garrett and the only other stuff of Cooks > besides those and Swordbearer that I've gotten my hands on > has been the Darkwar trilogy and I very much liked those, so > I choose to look on Swordbearer as an aberration. > > > Sam Roberts > > "On two occasions I have been asked [by Members of > Parliament], `Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine > wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not > able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas > that could provoke such a question." - Charles Babbage > (inventor of the > Difference Engine, an early mechanical computer) > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: David George [mailto:d.s.george@verizon.net] > Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 4:55 AM > To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Just finished the Swordbearer > > > Wow. Glad to hear someone besides me liked it. I think I > still like BC better but I enjoyed Swordbearer too. I have > heard people come down on it pretty hard, if I recall aright. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of > Brooke Wheeler > Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 2:13 AM > To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > Subject: (glencook-fans) Just finished the Swordbearer > > My sister bought a copy from Glen at ConJose, so I borrowed > it from her. > > Highly recommended... I really enjoyed his Black Company series, but > this is as good or better. From the ending, I have to wonder > if he ever > intended/intends to write a sequel... If so, I'd definitely > buy it. If > you haven't read this one yet, run, don't walk, to your local > library or > > used book store and pick up a copy. (I also read Tower of Fear, and > while it's not bad, it doesn't measure up to his BC stuff IMHO.) > > > > ============================================================== > ========= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this > list, visit . ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Harris Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Just finished the Swordbearer Date: 14 Oct 2002 14:34:09 -0500 Brooke, I recently reread "Swordbearer". I enjoyed it, as it has a few nice elements in it (the immortal companion of mysterious background, enigmatic gods) and signficant growth of the protagonist. In my opinion, it's chiefly flawed in that it's just the beginnings of a story, not the whole of it. But I think I like "Tower of Fear" much better. It has what I consider one of the foremost hallmarks of Glen's more sophisticated fiction: moral ambiguity of a strong sort. There are something like four opposed factions in "Tower", and each one has a good moral claim to its intended course of actions; I find it impossible not to root for all the players. The occupying force does a heckuva lot of good; the previous dictator, for all his intrinsic personal evil, put a stop to a lot of other villainy that really hurt people; the terrorist loyalists have legitimate grievances; the point-of-view protagonists have a realistic view of things; and the incoming overlords are a significantly civilizing influence. This could easily be seen as a morality tale for Iraq of today, what with the Sunnis, the Shiites, the Kurds, the Americans, etc. That gives it a lot of oomph, in my opinion, that it can be applied to something that was hardly on the horizon when written. Steve ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott havner Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Just finished the Swordbearer Date: 14 Oct 2002 13:52:18 -0700 (PDT) On the Tower of Fear, Glen was a Navy Corpsman w/ Force Recon, and I suspect he also spent time on board ship judging from his insight to shipboard life in other books, I think this gives him some rather insightful views on other cultures and the geopolitical aspects of those cultures. While we're on the subjects of earlier obscure Cook books, has anybody read the one where the hero is a sailor on an old destroyer in post apocalyptic Germany? I can't remember the name of the book but I was profoundly affected by it. Also there was another about Vietnam and a POW who is brainwashed by the Chinese and sent back to the Stes to assassinate someone. I can't remember much of the plot(it been 10 years since I read it). Any help with these titles and you thoughts on them would be appreciated. --- Steve Harris wrote: > Brooke, > > I recently reread "Swordbearer". I enjoyed it, as > it has a few nice > elements in it (the immortal companion of mysterious > background, > enigmatic gods) and signficant growth of the > protagonist. In my > opinion, it's chiefly flawed in that it's just the > beginnings of a > story, not the whole of it. > > But I think I like "Tower of Fear" much better. It > has what I consider > one of the foremost hallmarks of Glen's more > sophisticated fiction: > moral ambiguity of a strong sort. There are > something like four opposed > factions in "Tower", and each one has a good moral > claim to its intended > course of actions; I find it impossible not to root > for all the players. > The occupying force does a heckuva lot of good; the > previous dictator, > for all his intrinsic personal evil, put a stop to a > lot of other > villainy that really hurt people; the terrorist > loyalists have > legitimate grievances; the point-of-view > protagonists have a realistic > view of things; and the incoming overlords are a > significantly > civilizing influence. > > This could easily be seen as a morality tale for > Iraq of today, what > with the Sunnis, the Shiites, the Kurds, the > Americans, etc. That gives > it a lot of oomph, in my opinion, that it can be > applied to something > that was hardly on the horizon when written. > > Steve > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives > of this list, > visit . __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BaronetCorvu@cs.com Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Just finished the Swordbearer Date: 14 Oct 2002 18:12:49 EDT --part1_1a6.a41bd74.2adc9b61_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/14/02 2:35:00 PM Central Daylight Time, harrissg@SLU.EDU writes: > This could easily be seen as a morality tale for Iraq of today, what > with the Sunnis, the Shiites, the Kurds, the Americans, etc. That gives > it a lot of oomph, in my opinion, that it can be applied to something > that was hardly on the horizon when written. > For those who don't know, The Tower of Fear is a semi-historical novel about the last days of the city of Carthage. For those of you who liked The Swordbearer, well, as momma used to say, "If you can't say something nice,...." On a couple of occasions I have heard Glen say some VERY negative things about the fans who tell him that they like The Swordbearer. He is VERY ashamed of this book and calls it a juvenile power fantasy. He wishes that it hadn't been published. The only other book of his that he is ashamed of is Sung in Blood which is his incomplete Fastasy imitating the Doc Savage books. Michael Sweet --part1_1a6.a41bd74.2adc9b61_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/14/02 2:35:00 PM Central Daylight Time, harrissg@SLU.EDU writes:


This could easily be seen as a morality tale for Iraq of today, what
with the Sunnis, the Shiites, the Kurds, the Americans, etc.  That gives
it a lot of oomph, in my opinion, that it can be applied to something
that was hardly on the horizon when written.


For those who don't know, The Tower of Fear is a semi-historical novel about the last days of the city of Carthage.

For those of you who liked The Swordbearer, well, as momma used to say, "If you can't say something nice,...."

On a couple of occasions I have heard Glen say some VERY negative things about the fans who tell him that they like The Swordbearer.  He is VERY ashamed of this book and calls it a juvenile power fantasy.  He wishes that it hadn't been published.  The only other book of his that he is ashamed of is Sung in Blood which is his incomplete Fastasy imitating the Doc Savage books.

Michael Sweet --part1_1a6.a41bd74.2adc9b61_boundary-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brooke Wheeler Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Just finished the Swordbearer Date: 14 Oct 2002 15:17:57 -0700 That one is A Matter of Time: another one of my favorites. Try looking for it at your local library or on abebooks.com... It's a bit different from most of his other stuff, but definitely worth a read.

scott havner wrote:
Also there was another about Vietnam
and a POW who is brainwashed by the Chinese and sent
back to the Stes to assassinate someone.  I can't
remember much of the plot(it been 10 years since I
read it).  Any help with these titles and you thoughts
on them would be appreciated.
Actually the son who went to Vietnam and was captured and brainwashed is more motivation for the main character (his father) than a major character himself. The main character is a detective trying to solve an (apparent) murder, but the facts don't fit together right and things start getting more and more bizarre the more pieces of the puzzle he uncovers.
======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brooke Wheeler Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Just finished the Swordbearer Date: 14 Oct 2002 15:34:48 -0700

Steve Harris wrote:
I recently reread "Swordbearer".  I enjoyed it, as it has a few nice
elements in it (the immortal companion of mysterious background,
enigmatic gods) and significant growth of the protagonist.  In my
opinion, it's chiefly flawed in that it's just the beginnings of a
story, not the whole of it.
Heh, which is why I think it could really use a sequel. I  want to know what happens next, because at the end of the book, the protagonist has just gotten enough information to understand what caused the problem in the beginning. I'd really love to read about how he challenges the Great Ones.
But I think I like "Tower of Fear" much better.  It has what I consider
one of the foremost hallmarks of Glen's more sophisticated fiction:
moral ambiguity of a strong sort.  There are something like four opposed
factions in "Tower", and each one has a good moral claim to its intended
course of actions; I find it impossible not to root for all the players.
<<<SPOILER WARNING FOR TOWER OF FEAR>>>
















Granted, but what pissed me off was the ending. For other examples of this aggravating way of concluding a book, look at Iain Banks' Consider Phlebas and Against a Dark Background. Specifically, at the end we find out that all this was futile anyway, because a few years after the events in the story something happens that destroys everything they've built. I didn't need to know that, damnit! I see enough futility in everyday life. When I pick up a novel, I like to get to the end and read that "...and they all lived happily ever after to the end of their days" or something to that effect. :-)
======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kisc Kempson" Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Just finished the Swordbearer Date: 14 Oct 2002 05:46:49 -0600 I think it comes down to a perspective thing, in some ways. I told a reviewer of LotR that she had been reviewing the movie, while I was watching the book, so to speak, and so we got different things out of it. I think Cook maybe is looking at that book as one of his early juvenile-inspired works. I think that anyone who writes probably has something like this somewhere in their collection... many folks get "lucky" enough not to publish it. I'm looking at the dreaming-wizards-cum-gods as innovative and cool, and the overcoming of the sword by THIS hero as a fresh way to handle the whole cursed sword cliche. /MY/ juvenile power fantasies are slowly getting matured, from D&D Monty Haul class heros, to workable characters in a reasonable universe (I'm 31 next saturday, so hopefully some of that juvenile need for power fantasies is waning;). I'm hoping to turn that into a novel someday ... but I'm not straight up discarding what I wrote before. I'm trying to rein it in and make it into what it could be. Meanwhile, I don't have any complaints about the book. I have fairly simple tastes... I really enjoy the Anita Blake Vampire Hunter books, for crying out loud. A little juvenile power fantasy now and again really hits the spot. /I/ would love to see him revisit the universe, write the further adventures of our boy, and do it in a more mature fashion, one that he would be more happy with while telling me more about what happens there. I think that The Swordbearer was well written ... from a certain point of view. Kisc PS ditto Brooke's "happily ever after" comment. -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of BaronetCorvu@cs.com Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 4:13 PM In a message dated 10/14/02 2:35:00 PM Central Daylight Time, harrissg@SLU.EDU writes: This could easily be seen as a morality tale for Iraq of today, what with the Sunnis, the Shiites, the Kurds, the Americans, etc. That gives it a lot of oomph, in my opinion, that it can be applied to something that was hardly on the horizon when written. For those who don't know, The Tower of Fear is a semi-historical novel about the last days of the city of Carthage. For those of you who liked The Swordbearer, well, as momma used to say, "If you can't say something nice,...." On a couple of occasions I have heard Glen say some VERY negative things about the fans who tell him that they like The Swordbearer. He is VERY ashamed of this book and calls it a juvenile power fantasy. He wishes that it hadn't been published. The only other book of his that he is ashamed of is Sung in Blood which is his incomplete Fastasy imitating the Doc Savage books. Michael Sweet ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "David George" Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Just finished the Swordbearer Date: 14 Oct 2002 17:51:30 -0500 The title you are looking for regarding the old destroyer in Post Apocalypse Germany is called The Heirs of Babylon. Very early work but really pretty good, I thought. -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of scott havner Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 2:52 PM On the Tower of Fear, Glen was a Navy Corpsman w/ Force Recon, and I suspect he also spent time on board ship judging from his insight to shipboard life in other books, I think this gives him some rather insightful views on other cultures and the geopolitical aspects of those cultures. While we're on the subjects of earlier obscure Cook books, has anybody read the one where the hero is a sailor on an old destroyer in post apocalyptic Germany? I can't remember the name of the book but I was profoundly affected by it. Also there was another about Vietnam and a POW who is brainwashed by the Chinese and sent back to the Stes to assassinate someone. I can't remember much of the plot(it been 10 years since I read it). Any help with these titles and you thoughts on them would be appreciated. --- Steve Harris wrote: > Brooke, > > I recently reread "Swordbearer". I enjoyed it, as > it has a few nice > elements in it (the immortal companion of mysterious > background, > enigmatic gods) and signficant growth of the > protagonist. In my > opinion, it's chiefly flawed in that it's just the > beginnings of a > story, not the whole of it. > > But I think I like "Tower of Fear" much better. It > has what I consider > one of the foremost hallmarks of Glen's more > sophisticated fiction: > moral ambiguity of a strong sort. There are > something like four opposed > factions in "Tower", and each one has a good moral > claim to its intended > course of actions; I find it impossible not to root > for all the players. > The occupying force does a heckuva lot of good; the > previous dictator, > for all his intrinsic personal evil, put a stop to a > lot of other > villainy that really hurt people; the terrorist > loyalists have > legitimate grievances; the point-of-view > protagonists have a realistic > view of things; and the incoming overlords are a > significantly > civilizing influence. > > This could easily be seen as a morality tale for > Iraq of today, what > with the Sunnis, the Shiites, the Kurds, the > Americans, etc. That gives > it a lot of oomph, in my opinion, that it can be > applied to something > that was hardly on the horizon when written. > > Steve > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives > of this list, > visit . __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brooke Wheeler Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Just finished the Swordbearer Date: 14 Oct 2002 23:32:07 -0700

BaronetCorvu@cs.com wrote:
For those of you who liked The Swordbearer, well, as momma used to say, "If you can't say something nice,...."

On a couple of occasions I have heard Glen say some VERY negative things about the fans who tell him that they like The Swordbearer.  He is VERY ashamed of this book and calls it a juvenile power fantasy.  He wishes that it hadn't been published.  The only other book of his that he is ashamed of is Sung in Blood which is his incomplete Fastasy imitating the Doc Savage books.
Well, when my sister talked to Mr. Cook at WorldCon, she asked what books of his he would most recommend (other than Black Company and Garrett Files) and he handed her those two... maybe he changed his mind? I dunno... it may not be a literary masterpiece, but it's still a fun read, with plenty of depth to make it easy to suspend disbelief and become immersed in the story.

======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "R. Hyrum Savage" Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Just finished the Swordbearer Date: 14 Oct 2002 14:07:31 -0700 The post apocalyptic one sounds like "Heirs of Babylon" -------------- R. Hyrum Savage Keepin' it Real... Keepin' it Solid! OtherWorld Creations, Inc. http://www.forbiddenkingdoms.com http://www.otherworlds.cx/solid.shtml -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of scott havner Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 1:52 PM On the Tower of Fear, Glen was a Navy Corpsman w/ Force Recon, and I suspect he also spent time on board ship judging from his insight to shipboard life in other books, I think this gives him some rather insightful views on other cultures and the geopolitical aspects of those cultures. While we're on the subjects of earlier obscure Cook books, has anybody read the one where the hero is a sailor on an old destroyer in post apocalyptic Germany? I can't remember the name of the book but I was profoundly affected by it. Also there was another about Vietnam and a POW who is brainwashed by the Chinese and sent back to the Stes to assassinate someone. I can't remember much of the plot(it been 10 years since I read it). Any help with these titles and you thoughts on them would be appreciated. --- Steve Harris wrote: > Brooke, > > I recently reread "Swordbearer". I enjoyed it, as > it has a few nice > elements in it (the immortal companion of mysterious > background, > enigmatic gods) and signficant growth of the > protagonist. In my > opinion, it's chiefly flawed in that it's just the > beginnings of a > story, not the whole of it. > > But I think I like "Tower of Fear" much better. It > has what I consider > one of the foremost hallmarks of Glen's more > sophisticated fiction: > moral ambiguity of a strong sort. There are > something like four opposed > factions in "Tower", and each one has a good moral > claim to its intended > course of actions; I find it impossible not to root > for all the players. > The occupying force does a heckuva lot of good; the > previous dictator, > for all his intrinsic personal evil, put a stop to a > lot of other > villainy that really hurt people; the terrorist > loyalists have > legitimate grievances; the point-of-view > protagonists have a realistic > view of things; and the incoming overlords are a > significantly > civilizing influence. > > This could easily be seen as a morality tale for > Iraq of today, what > with the Sunnis, the Shiites, the Kurds, the > Americans, etc. That gives > it a lot of oomph, in my opinion, that it can be > applied to something > that was hardly on the horizon when written. > > Steve > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives > of this list, > visit . __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Robert Tygers Subject: (glencook-fans) Swordbearers in the Tower of Fear Date: 15 Oct 2002 23:20:26 -0700 (PDT) I enjoyed Swordbearer more on the second or third read through, when I was more aware of the subtext Cook was working into the story, but I'm not surprised he's not proud of it. It's perhaps the most derivative of his published works (basically Moorcock-done-right) and while it has some interesting Cookian twists to the archetype - I like it better than the dreary Elric - it's most interesting as a preview of where his later books would go. (There's room for a sequel but I don't feel a need for one. The most interesting questions are answered and I like stories that leave the rest up to my imagination...could really have done without the Silver Spike). As for Tower of Fear, this is Cook at the height of his powers. Multiple factions, clashing cultures, complex politics, divided loyalties, murky moral questions, rich characterization, and a plot that has the logic of reality, not pretty formulas. You can see hints of all these things in Swordbearer. The dual ending is an integral part of his theme: events that seem tremendously important in perspective inevitably become mere parts of the ongoing tapestry of history - as momentous as our lives may seem we are all just "dust in the wind." (You see this in Dread Empire and Black Company too). This thematic maturity is one of the main reasons Glen is pretty much the only fantasy/science-fiction author I read any more...I grew out of "happily ever after" escapism. And I'd love to see a Cook book about Iraq...someone should suggest that next time they see him. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Koshel Subject: (glencook-fans) Glen Cook elements in Steven Erikson' Mazalan series Date: 16 Oct 2002 05:26:06 -0700 (PDT) I am currently reading the the 2nd book of Mazalan series by Steven Erikson. I was wondering how many, (if any) other people on the list have read this series. The reason I bring it up on the list is that it appears that Erikson has borrowed elements of the Black Company and the Dread Empire series, i.e. the Bridgeburners and Kruppe, (who reminds me of Mocker so much it isn't even funny.) Anyone else have any thoughts. Also, to anyone who hasn't read it, I highly recommend this series. Everyone I know who has read the first 3 can't get over how well done it is. Mike __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Fraser=20Ronald?= Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Swordbearers in the Tower of Fear Date: 16 Oct 2002 13:51:59 +0100 (BST) --- Robert Tygers wrote: > As for Tower of Fear, this is Cook at the height of > his powers. See, I think this too. A few people have slagged it, and I can't understand it. When I try to get people interested in fantasy, or if someone asks me a fantasy book to read, I point them to Cook's "Tower of Fear" and Guy Gavriel Kay's "Tigana". I really love all the Black Company books, but "Tower of Fear" is possibly Cook's finest works, and certainly one of the best fantasy novels of the last couple of decades. But that's just my opinion. ===== Fraser Ronald "Sword's Edge" (http://www.swordsedge.net/) AtFantasy Alliance Fiction Archive (http://www.atfantasy.com/fiction) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Igor Filippov Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Swordbearers in the Tower of Fear Date: 16 Oct 2002 10:30:16 -0400 (EDT) I'm sorry, but I really hated Tower of Fear. I tried to start it several times over the last few years, and when I finally finished it it wasn't worth the effort. What really attracted me to Mr. Cook other work was the pro-active position that his protagonists tend to take - made even more interesting by the non-trivial nature of the said position - neither what could be called "good" nor altogether "evil". Unfortunately this does not seem to apply to "Tower of Fear" - it felt like most of the time everybody was just sitting there waiting for the events to unfold themselves, which brought the random plot to a random end. I really wouldn't recommend "Tower of Fear" for anyone but most hard-core fans of Mr. Cook's work. Just my 2 cents worth, Igor Filippov On Wed, 16 Oct 2002, [iso-8859-1] Fraser Ronald wrote: > --- Robert Tygers wrote: > > As for Tower of Fear, this is Cook at the height of > > his powers. > > See, I think this too. A few people have slagged it, > and I can't understand it. When I try to get people > interested in fantasy, or if someone asks me a fantasy > book to read, I point them to Cook's "Tower of Fear" > and Guy Gavriel Kay's "Tigana". I really love all the > Black Company books, but "Tower of Fear" is possibly > Cook's finest works, and certainly one of the best > fantasy novels of the last couple of decades. > > But that's just my opinion. > > ===== > Fraser Ronald > "Sword's Edge" (http://www.swordsedge.net/) > AtFantasy Alliance Fiction Archive (http://www.atfantasy.com/fiction) > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > http://uk.my.yahoo.com > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Marcin Welnicki" Subject: (glencook-fans) Glen Cook elements in Steven Erikson' Mazalan series Date: 16 Oct 2002 20:09:52 +0200 ----- Original Message ----- > The reason I bring it up on the list is that it > appears that Erikson has borrowed elements of the > Black Company and the Dread Empire series, i.e. the > Bridgeburners and Kruppe, (who reminds me of Mocker so > much it isn't even funny.) Anyone else have any > thoughts. Well, Erikson pointed in one interview that he likes Cook's books . Mocker :) ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: schew@interzone.com (Steve Chew) Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Tower of Fear Date: 16 Oct 2002 16:44:42 -0400 (EDT) Igor wrote: > >I'm sorry, but I really hated Tower of Fear. >I tried to start it several times over the last few years, and >when I finally finished it it wasn't worth the effort. What really >attracted me to Mr. Cook other work was the pro-active position that his >protagonists tend to take - made even more interesting by the non-trivial >nature of the said position - neither what could be called "good" nor >altogether "evil". Unfortunately this does not seem to apply to "Tower of >Fear" - it felt like most of the time everybody was just sitting there >waiting for the events to unfold themselves, which brought the random plot >to a random end. I really wouldn't recommend "Tower of Fear" for anyone >but most hard-core fans of Mr. Cook's work. > This is what makes writing interesting. You never know how people are going to react. And it's why there is a large variety out there. I fall into the camp who loves "Tower of Fear." I agree with the eloquent descriptions by a few others on this list about how "Tower of Fear" is a study of moral ambiguity which is Cook's trademark. It's not action filled but I had a hard time putting it down. I didn't see the characters as "waiting for events to unfold." I felt that the characters weren't always certain of what actions to take and were forced to react to what happened around them instead. Each character takes a realistic stance, not necessarily a heroic one, toward how to live his life. I found the characters compelling and cared about most of them by the end of the book, even those who I didn't want to succeed. To each his own. :-) Steve ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lawrence Jenab" Subject: (glencook-fans) Good source for used books Date: 16 Oct 2002 23:30:50 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2756C.0FE55240 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry to bug everybody, but someone posted a URL for a good online = source of used books, including Glen's. It wasn't one of the = run-of-the-mill Amazon.Barnes&Noble.com type places. I've searched the = digest, but I guess it was too recent a thread to be up yet. Anyone = remember the site? Thanks, Larry ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2756C.0FE55240 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sorry to bug everybody, but someone posted a URL for = a good=20 online source of used books, including Glen's.  It wasn't one of = the=20 run-of-the-mill Amazon.Barnes&Noble.com type places.  I've = searched the=20 digest, but I guess it was too recent a thread to be up yet.  = Anyone=20 remember the site?
 
Thanks,
Larry
 
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2756C.0FE55240-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brooke Wheeler Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Good source for used books Date: 16 Oct 2002 21:38:58 -0700 Er... I mentioned ABEBooks.com. Was that the one you were thinking of?

Lawrence Jenab wrote:
Sorry to bug everybody, but someone posted a URL for a good online source of used books, including Glen's.  It wasn't one of the run-of-the-mill Amazon.Barnes&Noble.com type places.  I've searched the digest, but I guess it was too recent a thread to be up yet.  Anyone remember the site?
 
Thanks,
Larry
 

======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lawrence Jenab" Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Good source for used books Date: 16 Oct 2002 23:46:05 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C2756E.31799860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That was it! Thanks, Brooke. Larry ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Brooke Wheeler=20 To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 11:38 PM Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Good source for used books Er... I mentioned ABEBooks.com. Was that the one you were thinking of? Lawrence Jenab wrote: Sorry to bug everybody, but someone posted a URL for a good online = source of used books, including Glen's. It wasn't one of the = run-of-the-mill Amazon.Barnes&Noble.com type places. I've searched the = digest, but I guess it was too recent a thread to be up yet. Anyone = remember the site? Thanks, Larry = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D To = unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C2756E.31799860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
That was it!  Thanks, Brooke.
 
Larry
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Brooke Wheeler
To: glencook-fans@lists.xmis= sion.com=20
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, = 2002 11:38=20 PM
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) = Good source=20 for used books

Er... I mentioned ABEBooks.com. Was that the one you = were=20 thinking of?

Lawrence Jenab wrote:
Sorry to bug everybody, but someone posted a URL = for a=20 good online source of used books, including Glen's.  It wasn't = one of=20 the run-of-the-mill Amazon.Barnes&Noble.com type places.  = I've=20 searched the digest, but I guess it was too recent a thread to be up = yet.  Anyone remember the site?
 
Thanks,
Larry
=
 

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20 To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit = . = ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C2756E.31799860-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Horky, Roger" Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Good source for used books Date: 17 Oct 2002 08:48:10 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C275E3.D4B191B8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Don't forget bookfinder.com ( www.bookfinder.com), a meta-search engine = that looks at used-and-rare book dealer networks such as ABE and = TomFolio, and new booksellers such as Half.com and B&N. I've managed to = fill in most of the gaps of my various collections using this service. = It's best for English-language books, but there are a lot of overseas = dealers hooked up. It's owned by Amazon, but they maintain a fairly low = profile. -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 11:46 PM That was it! Thanks, Brooke. =20 Larry ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 11:38 PM Er... I mentioned ABEBooks.com. Was that the one you were thinking of? Lawrence Jenab wrote: Sorry to bug everybody, but someone posted a URL for a good online = source of used books, including Glen's. It wasn't one of the = run-of-the-mill Amazon.Barnes&Noble.com type places. I've searched the = digest, but I guess it was too recent a thread to be up yet. Anyone = remember the site? =20 Thanks, Larry =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D To = unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit .=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C275E3.D4B191B8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Don't=20 forget bookfinder.com (www.bookfinder.com), a = meta-search engine=20 that looks at used-and-rare book dealer networks such as ABE and = TomFolio, and=20 new booksellers such as Half.com and B&N. I've managed to fill = in most=20 of the gaps of my various collections using this service. It's best for=20 English-language books, but there are a lot of overseas dealers hooked = up. It's=20 owned by Amazon, but they maintain a fairly low = profile.
-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Jenab=20 [mailto:ljenab@sunflower.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, = 2002=20 11:46 PM
To: = glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re:=20 (glencook-fans) Good source for used books

That was it!  Thanks, Brooke.
 
Larry
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Brooke Wheeler =
To: glencook-fans@lists.xmis= sion.com=20
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, = 2002 11:38=20 PM
Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) = Good=20 source for used books

Er... I mentioned ABEBooks.com. Was that the one you = were=20 thinking of?

Lawrence Jenab wrote:
Sorry to bug everybody, but someone posted a = URL for a=20 good online source of used books, including Glen's.  It = wasn't one of=20 the run-of-the-mill Amazon.Barnes&Noble.com type places.  = I've=20 searched the digest, but I guess it was too recent a thread to be = up=20 yet.  Anyone remember the site?
 
Thanks,
Larry
=
 

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20 To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, = visit .=20
------_=_NextPart_001_01C275E3.D4B191B8-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Robert Tygers Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Swordbearers in the Tower of Fear Date: 17 Oct 2002 16:38:07 -0700 (PDT) Igor Filippov remarked: > What really > attracted me to Mr. Cook other work was the > pro-active position that his > protagonists tend to take - made even more > interesting by the non-trivial > nature of the said position - neither what could be > called "good" nor > altogether "evil". Unfortunately this does not seem > to apply to "Tower of > Fear" What about Azel? He drives pretty much the entire plot (though he doesn't hold all the cards). __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Navin Javvaji" Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Swordbearers in the Tower of Fear Date: 18 Oct 2002 11:28:16 -0500 I don't think that Azel was truly evil. Especially towards the end. I think that he realized that he was bought, and fulfilled his commission to the very end. This is what I think that all of the Black Company books have in common. People placed in circumstances simply trying to make the most of it. ----Original Message Follows---- Reply-To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com Igor Filippov remarked: > What really > attracted me to Mr. Cook other work was the > pro-active position that his > protagonists tend to take - made even more > interesting by the non-trivial > nature of the said position - neither what could be > called "good" nor > altogether "evil". Unfortunately this does not seem > to apply to "Tower of > Fear" What about Azel? He drives pretty much the entire plot (though he doesn't hold all the cards). __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . _________________________________________________________________ Get faster connections -- switch to MSN Internet Access! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Murphy Subject: (glencook-fans) Is Garrett really naive? Date: 21 Oct 2002 19:12:48 -0700 I just finished rereading the Garrett series and I had a thought. Faded Steel Heat is the second to last book in the series and the bad guy is a woman. As is usual with Garrett, it was one of the last people he suspected. But in every single one of the books, the bad guy ends up being one of the females. Excepting Sweet Silver Blues, in which a very spoiled self centered female causes problems anyway, even if she is not the main threat. So, is Garrett ever going to put the woman on the top of the suspect list, or does he keep getting duped? This may be superfluos anyway, since only one more book is coming out. And I bet anything Belonda is going to be a major evil in it. J Murphy ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kisc Kempson" Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Is Garrett really naive? Date: 21 Oct 2002 06:24:50 -0600 Much like many of us with the XY mix, Garrett often tends to think with the little head. Pretty girls? Nah. Don't be silly. They are there for loving, not suspecting. But, he's funny, so we let him get away with it. Kisc > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Joe Murphy > Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 8:13 PM > To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > Subject: (glencook-fans) Is Garrett really naive? > > > I just finished rereading the Garrett series and I had a thought. Faded > Steel Heat is the second to last book in the series and the bad guy is a > woman. As is usual with Garrett, it was one of the last people he > suspected. But in every single one of the books, the bad guy ends up > being one of the females. Excepting Sweet Silver Blues, in which a very > spoiled self centered female causes problems anyway, even if she is not > the main threat. > > So, is Garrett ever going to put the woman on the top of the suspect > list, or does he keep getting duped? This may be superfluos anyway, > since only one more book is coming out. And I bet anything Belonda is > going to be a major evil in it. > > J Murphy > > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Horky, Roger" Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Is Garrett really naive? Date: 22 Oct 2002 11:44:45 -0500 Also note that he has plenty of affairs/relationships/flings between = adventures with women who DON'T drag him into trouble (or maybe he's = just bragging).=20 But he does allow himself to be blinded by the honies, usually.=20 he's not entirely oblivious, however. He once asked Morley "If I'm = working on a case, then where's the pretty girl?," acknowledging that = most of his adventures start with an encounter with a female. =20 besides, if he sussed on to the girl right away, they'd be very short = books. rog -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 7:25 AM Much like many of us with the XY mix, Garrett often tends to think with = the little head. Pretty girls? Nah. Don't be silly. They are there for = loving, not suspecting. But, he's funny, so we let him get away with it. Kisc > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Joe Murphy > Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 8:13 PM > To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > Subject: (glencook-fans) Is Garrett really naive? > > > I just finished rereading the Garrett series and I had a thought. = Faded > Steel Heat is the second to last book in the series and the bad guy is = a > woman. As is usual with Garrett, it was one of the last people he > suspected. But in every single one of the books, the bad guy ends up > being one of the females. Excepting Sweet Silver Blues, in which a = very > spoiled self centered female causes problems anyway, even if she is = not > the main threat. > > So, is Garrett ever going to put the woman on the top of the suspect > list, or does he keep getting duped? This may be superfluos anyway, > since only one more book is coming out. And I bet anything Belonda is > going to be a major evil in it. > > J Murphy > > > = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Murphy Subject: (glencook-fans) Soldiers Live Date: 28 Oct 2002 07:05:28 -0800 Spoiler . . . . .. .. . . . . I have been wondering about this since the book came out. Right in the beginning Glen mentions a third person who made it off the Plain, only to die in the wars. Who could it be? Even more, how could it be anyone? The group on the plain was too far in for anyone to run out before darkness fell. Didn't the group Sleepy led across find the first shadow victim the second day in? I try to speculate but everything I can think of I end end up shooting down myself. Anyone one else give thought to this? J Murphy ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wellyrook@aol.com Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Soldiers Live Date: 28 Oct 2002 20:13:49 EST J Murphy "I have been wondering about this since the book came out. Right in the beginning Glen mentions a third person who made it off the Plain, only to die in the wars. Who could it be? Even more, how could it be anyone? The group on the plain was too far in for anyone to run out before darkness fell. Didn't the group Sleepy led across find the first shadow victim the second day in? I try to speculate but everything I can think of I end end up shooting down myself. Anyone one else give thought to this?" I can't seem to remember anyone who fits that description. Perhaps its an obvious character, and we're just overlooking it? Kind of like wondering where your pencil is, and then finding it was on your ear the whole time. Mather didn't make it off the plain, but he wasn't successfully frozen in the cave either. And he didn't die in the wars, he was nailed by a trap. Other than that, I am out of ideas. Perhaps Cook just made a mistake? -Welly ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Navin Javvaji" Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Soldiers Live Date: 29 Oct 2002 08:43:36 -0600 I think that Mr. Cook, makes mention that the third person that survived off of the plain instigated the rebellion that was called the "Kiaulune Wars" Direct Quote: "Only fifty people had ventured otu onto that plain of glittering stone. Half of those people had not been Company. Only two of those fifty had returned to lie about what had happened. And a third who had come back to retell the truth had been killed in the Kiaulune wars, far away from the capital." Mr Cook goes on to name the two: "But the deciets of Soulcather and Willow Swan fooled no one, then or now", but never mentions the third. Any comments? ----Original Message Follows---- Reply-To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com J Murphy "I have been wondering about this since the book came out. Right in the beginning Glen mentions a third person who made it off the Plain, only to die in the wars. Who could it be? Even more, how could it be anyone? The group on the plain was too far in for anyone to run out before darkness fell. Didn't the group Sleepy led across find the first shadow victim the second day in? I try to speculate but everything I can think of I end end up shooting down myself. Anyone one else give thought to this?" I can't seem to remember anyone who fits that description. Perhaps its an obvious character, and we're just overlooking it? Kind of like wondering where your pencil is, and then finding it was on your ear the whole time. Mather didn't make it off the plain, but he wasn't successfully frozen in the cave either. And he didn't die in the wars, he was nailed by a trap. Other than that, I am out of ideas. Perhaps Cook just made a mistake? -Welly ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Axemaster2001@aol.com Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Soldiers Live Date: 29 Oct 2002 11:45:04 EST --part1_151.16a0beae.2af01510_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/29/02 9:44:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, nsjavvaji@hotmail.com writes: Been awhile since i read the books, but now you got me wanting to go back and re read this. Would have to look at the end of the last book maybe to see who it is that went up on the plain... > I think that Mr. Cook, makes mention that the third person that survived off > > of the plain instigated the rebellion that was called the "Kiaulune Wars" > > Direct Quote: > > "Only fifty people had ventured otu onto that plain of glittering stone. > Half of those people had not been Company. Only two of those fifty had > returned to lie about what had happened. And a third who had come back to > retell the truth had been killed in the Kiaulune wars, far away from the > capital." > > Mr Cook goes on to name the two: "But the deciets of Soulcather and Willow > Swan fooled no one, then or now", but never mentions the third. > > > Any comments? > > > Axemaster 61 Cleric Lilaxe 58 Warrior --part1_151.16a0beae.2af01510_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/29/02 9:44:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, nsjavvaji@hotmail.com writes:

Been awhile since i read the books, but now you got me wanting to go back and re read this. Would have to look at the end of the last book maybe to see who it is that went up on the plain...


I think that Mr. Cook, makes mention that the third person that survived off
of the plain instigated the rebellion that was called the "Kiaulune Wars"

Direct Quote:

"Only fifty people had ventured otu onto that plain of glittering stone. 
Half of those people had not been Company.  Only two of those fifty had
returned to lie about what had happened.  And a third who had come back to
retell the truth had been killed in the Kiaulune wars, far away from the
capital."

Mr Cook goes on to name the two: "But the deciets of Soulcather and Willow
Swan fooled no one, then or now", but never mentions the third.


Any comments?







Axemaster  61 Cleric
Lilaxe 58 Warrior
   
--part1_151.16a0beae.2af01510_boundary-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Carl Forester" Subject: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali Date: 30 Oct 2002 15:24:05 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00F1_01C28028.623542A0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_00F2_01C28028.623542A0" ------=_NextPart_001_00F2_01C28028.623542A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This may have been mentioned before, I haven't been on the list long. I was reading an article on MSN about the Scariest Monster's around the Globe. One of them that was mentioned was an Indian goddess named Kali (Description of kali and the Thugs below) which sounds very close to the description of Kina and the Strangler. Just a personal epiphany I thought I would share. -carl- Kali Kali (feminine form of Sanskrit kala,"time" or "dark"), consort of the Hindu god Shiva in her manifestation of the power of time. A destructive mother goddess, Kali is frequently depicted as a black, laughing, naked hag with blood-stained teeth, a protruding tongue, and a garland of human skulls. She usually has four arms: One hand holds a sword, the second holds a severed human head, the third is believed by her devotees to be removing fear, and the fourth is often interpreted as granting bliss. Kali-omnipotent, absolute, and all-pervasive-is beyond fear and finite existence and is therefore believed to be able to protect her devotees against fear and to give them limitless peace. Finally, as absolute night, devouring all that exists, she is sometimes depicted as standing on the corpse of Shiva, which, like the garland of skulls, symbolizes the remains of finite existence. Kali's worshipers purportedly appeased her in the past with human sacrifices; today she is propitiated with the blood of mammals. Under the title Bhavani, she was invoked by the secret brotherhood of murderers called Thugs. The city of Calcutta (now Kolkata) received its name from Kali; Calcutta is the Anglicized form of Kalighata, the name of a large temple dedicated to Kali. How to cite this article: "Kali," MicrosoftR EncartaR Online Encyclopedia 2002 http://encarta.msn.com C 1997-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All Rights Reserved. C 1993-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All Rights Reserved. Thugs Thugs (from Sanskrit sthag,"conceal" or "deceive"), former secret organization of robbers in India, who always strangled their victims. Devotees of the goddess Kali, they regarded their activities as religious rituals; new members were initiated in an elaborate ceremony, and they worshiped, as a symbol of the goddess, the pickax with which they dug the graves of their victims. Included in their ranks were many Brahmins and respectable businessmen. In October, they would meet in bands of from 10 to 200 and set out on the highways, where they would set upon wealthy travelers, strangle them with a cloth, distribute the booty, and flee. A portion of the booty was always presented as an offering to the goddess in one of her temples. Thugs arose in northern India before the Muslim conquest in the 12th century ad and thrived, with extraordinary immunity from prosecution under Hindu law, until 1829, when Lord William Bentinck, the British governor-general of India, began to investigate the organization, perhaps because of thugee activity directed against British soldiers and government officials. The campaign against the Thugs, directed by Sir W. H. Sleeman, was remarkably successful. Within seven years more than 3000 of them had been imprisoned or hanged, and the Thugs were wiped out. Contributed By: Wendy Doniger, M.A., Ph.D., D.Phil. Mircea Eliade Professor of History of Religions and Indian Studies, University of Chicago. Author of The Origins of Evil in Hindu Mythology, Siva: the Erotic Ascetic, and Dreams, Illusion, and Other Realities. How to cite this article: "Thugs," MicrosoftR EncartaR Online Encyclopedia 2002 http://encarta.msn.com C 1997-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All Rights Reserved. C 1993-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All Rights Reserved. -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Axemaster2001@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 10:45 In a message dated 10/29/02 9:44:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, nsjavvaji@hotmail.com writes: Been awhile since i read the books, but now you got me wanting to go back and re read this. Would have to look at the end of the last book maybe to see who it is that went up on the plain... I think that Mr. Cook, makes mention that the third person that survived off of the plain instigated the rebellion that was called the "Kiaulune Wars" Direct Quote: "Only fifty people had ventured otu onto that plain of glittering stone. Half of those people had not been Company. Only two of those fifty had returned to lie about what had happened. And a third who had come back to retell the truth had been killed in the Kiaulune wars, far away from the capital." Mr Cook goes on to name the two: "But the deciets of Soulcather and Willow Swan fooled no one, then or now", but never mentions the third. Any comments? Axemaster 61 Cleric Lilaxe 58 Warrior ------=_NextPart_001_00F2_01C28028.623542A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
This=20 may have been mentioned before, I haven't been on the list long.  I = was=20 reading an article on MSN about the Scariest Monster's around the Globe. = One of=20 them that was mentioned was an Indian goddess named Kali (Description of = kali=20 and the Thugs below) which sounds very close to the description of Kina = and the=20 Strangler.  Just a personal epiphany I thought I would=20 share.
 
-carl-
 
Kali

Kali = (feminine form of=20 Sanskrit kala,”time” or “dark”), consort = of the Hindu god Shiva in her=20 manifestation of the power of time. A destructive mother goddess, Kali = is=20 frequently depicted as a black, laughing, naked hag with blood-stained = teeth, a=20 protruding tongue, and a garland of human skulls. She usually has four = arms: One=20 hand holds a sword, the second holds a severed human head, the third is = believed=20 by her devotees to be removing fear, and the fourth is often interpreted = as=20 granting bliss. Kali—omnipotent, absolute, and = all-pervasive—is beyond fear and=20 finite existence and is therefore believed to be able to protect her = devotees=20 against fear and to give them limitless peace. Finally, as absolute = night,=20 devouring all that exists, she is sometimes depicted as standing on the = corpse=20 of Shiva, which, like the garland of skulls, symbolizes the remains of = finite=20 existence. Kali's worshipers purportedly appeased her in the past with = human=20 sacrifices; today she is propitiated with the blood of mammals. Under = the title=20 Bhavani, she was invoked by the secret brotherhood of murderers = called=20 Thugs. The city of = Calcutta (now=20 Kolkata) received its name from Kali; Calcutta is the Anglicized form of = Kalighata, the name of a large temple dedicated to = Kali.
How to = cite this=20 article:
"Kali," Microsoft® Encarta® Online = Encyclopedia=20 2002
http://encarta.msn.com © 1997-2002 Microsoft = Corporation. All=20 Rights Reserved.
© 1993-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All = Rights=20 Reserved.
 
Thugs

Thugs = (from Sanskrit=20 sthag,”conceal” or “deceive”), former = secret organization of robbers in=20 India, who always strangled their victims. Devotees of the goddess Kali, = they=20 regarded their activities as religious rituals; new members were = initiated in an=20 elaborate ceremony, and they worshiped, as a symbol of the goddess, the = pickax=20 with which they dug the graves of their victims. Included in their ranks = were=20 many Brahmins and respectable businessmen. In October, they would meet = in bands=20 of from 10 to 200 and set out on the highways, where they would set upon = wealthy=20 travelers, strangle them with a cloth, distribute the booty, and flee. A = portion=20 of the booty was always presented as an offering to the goddess in one = of her=20 temples. Thugs arose in northern India before the Muslim conquest in the = 12th=20 century ad and=20 thrived, with extraordinary immunity from prosecution under Hindu law, = until=20 1829, when Lord William Bentinck, the British governor-general of India, = began=20 to investigate the organization, perhaps because of thugee activity = directed=20 against British soldiers and government officials. The campaign against = the=20 Thugs, directed by Sir W. H. Sleeman, was remarkably successful. Within = seven=20 years more than 3000 of them had been imprisoned or hanged, and the = Thugs were=20 wiped out.
Contributed By:
Wendy Doniger, M.A., = Ph.D.,=20 D.Phil.
Mircea Eliade Professor of History of Religions = and Indian=20 Studies, University of Chicago. Author of The Origins of Evil = in Hindu=20 Mythology, Siva: the Erotic Ascetic, and Dreams, Illusion, = and=20 Other Realities.
How to = cite this=20 article:
"Thugs," Microsoft® Encarta® Online = Encyclopedia=20 2002
http://encarta.msn.com © 1997-2002 Microsoft = Corporation. All=20 Rights Reserved.
© 1993-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All = Rights=20 Reserved.
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com=20 [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of=20 Axemaster2001@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002=20 10:45
To: = glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re:=20 (glencook-fans) Soldiers Live

In a=20 message dated 10/29/02 9:44:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, = nsjavvaji@hotmail.com=20 writes:

Been awhile since i read the books, but now you got me = wanting=20 to go back and re read this. Would have to look at the end of the last = book=20 maybe to see who it is that went up on the plain...


I think that Mr. Cook, makes mention that the third = person that=20 survived off
of the plain instigated the rebellion that was = called the=20 "Kiaulune Wars"

Direct Quote:

"Only fifty people had = ventured=20 otu onto that plain of glittering stone. 
Half of those = people had=20 not been Company.  Only two of those fifty had
returned to = lie=20 about what had happened.  And a third who had come back to =
retell=20 the truth had been killed in the Kiaulune wars, far away from the=20
capital."

Mr Cook goes on to name the two: "But the = deciets of=20 Soulcather and Willow
Swan fooled no one, then or now", but = never=20 mentions the third.


Any=20 comments?







Axemaster=  =20 61 Cleric
Lilaxe 58=20 Warrior
    =
------=_NextPart_001_00F2_01C28028.623542A0-- ------=_NextPart_000_00F1_01C28028.623542A0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="trans.gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Location: http://encarta.msn.com/xImages/trans.gif R0lGODlhBAAEAIAAAP///wAAACH5BAEAAAEALAAAAAAEAAQAAAIEjI8ZBQA7 ------=_NextPart_000_00F1_01C28028.623542A0-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kisc Kempson" Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali Date: 30 Oct 2002 03:51:18 -0700 It wouldn't be at all surprising if Mr. Cook used a goddess from actual mythology as a blueprint for one of his fictional gods. After all, it makes perfect sense to use the work of potentially hundreds of thousands of years of human imagination, rather than the few hours you might have to make up a goddess. When human mythology is so rich and varied, why re-create more of it than you have to? To mis-coin a phrase, why reinvent the deity? ;) That doesn't mean he did. Really, how much imagination does it take to create a generic blood-thirsty goddess of death that wears a skull necklace, and then write vague myths about her (no offense to Mr. Cook's writing or imagination is intended here)? The details would be more difficult to flesh out of course, particularly if this goddess was going to be interacting with your characters more or less directly, as opposed to the standoffish deitys you often find in print. That goes for either option. Kina always kind of reminded me of the Shiva from the Destroyer books. Remo Williams, that is. I seem to recall that Kali and Shiva are portrayed in those books as being alternately antagonistic and lovers, but I wasn't terribly clear on that point. Slight spoiler here, Remo is supposedly the avatar of Shiva, while some chick in one of the books was the avatar of Kali. I read that some time ago, and don't remember how it ended, although Remo of course won (he always does in the end, except when he goes up agains Chuin). Something mildly entertaining that I just realized, regarding what I do when I try to write: I thought that I was creating deitys and myths in the holes left by much of the mythologies of our world, trying to avoid the cliches as much as I could. It turns out that I've been creating gods based on the demi-gods and heros of our world... Hercules and Perseus, in particular, appear to be very close to what I've "imagined up" for gods. This writing stuff isn't easy, and the harder I try at it, the more respect I have for people who are making a living doing it. Kisc -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Carl Forester Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 2:24 PM This may have been mentioned before, I haven't been on the list long. I was reading an article on MSN about the Scariest Monster's around the Globe. One of them that was mentioned was an Indian goddess named Kali (Description of kali and the Thugs below) which sounds very close to the description of Kina and the Strangler. Just a personal epiphany I thought I would share. -carl- Kali Kali (feminine form of Sanskrit kala,"time" or "dark"), consort of the Hindu god Shiva in her manifestation of the power of time. A destructive mother goddess, Kali is frequently depicted as a black, laughing, naked hag with blood-stained teeth, a protruding tongue, and a garland of human skulls. She usually has four arms: One hand holds a sword, the second holds a severed human head, the third is believed by her devotees to be removing fear, and the fourth is often interpreted as granting bliss. Kali-omnipotent, absolute, and all-pervasive-is beyond fear and finite existence and is therefore believed to be able to protect her devotees against fear and to give them limitless peace. Finally, as absolute night, devouring all that exists, she is sometimes depicted as standing on the corpse of Shiva, which, like the garland of skulls, symbolizes the remains of finite existence. Kali's worshipers purportedly appeased her in the past with human sacrifices; today she is propitiated with the blood of mammals. Under the title Bhavani, she was invoked by the secret brotherhood of murderers called Thugs. The city of Calcutta (now Kolkata) received its name from Kali; Calcutta is the Anglicized form of Kalighata, the name of a large temple dedicated to Kali. How to cite this article: "Kali," MicrosoftR EncartaR Online Encyclopedia 2002 http://encarta.msn.com C 1997-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All Rights Reserved. C 1993-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All Rights Reserved. Thugs Thugs (from Sanskrit sthag,"conceal" or "deceive"), former secret organization of robbers in India, who always strangled their victims. Devotees of the goddess Kali, they regarded their activities as religious rituals; new members were initiated in an elaborate ceremony, and they worshiped, as a symbol of the goddess, the pickax with which they dug the graves of their victims. Included in their ranks were many Brahmins and respectable businessmen. In October, they would meet in bands of from 10 to 200 and set out on the highways, where they would set upon wealthy travelers, strangle them with a cloth, distribute the booty, and flee. A portion of the booty was always presented as an offering to the goddess in one of her temples. Thugs arose in northern India before the Muslim conquest in the 12th century ad and thrived, with extraordinary immunity from prosecution under Hindu law, until 1829, when Lord William Bentinck, the British governor-general of India, began to investigate the organization, perhaps because of thugee activity directed against British soldiers and government officials. The campaign against the Thugs, directed by Sir W. H. Sleeman, was remarkably successful. Within seven years more than 3000 of them had been imprisoned or hanged, and the Thugs were wiped out. Contributed By: Wendy Doniger, M.A., Ph.D., D.Phil. Mircea Eliade Professor of History of Religions and Indian Studies, University of Chicago. Author of The Origins of Evil in Hindu Mythology, Siva: the Erotic Ascetic, and Dreams, Illusion, and Other Realities. How to cite this article: "Thugs," MicrosoftR EncartaR Online Encyclopedia 2002 http://encarta.msn.com C 1997-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All Rights Reserved. C 1993-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All Rights Reserved. -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Axemaster2001@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 10:45 In a message dated 10/29/02 9:44:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, nsjavvaji@hotmail.com writes: Been awhile since i read the books, but now you got me wanting to go back and re read this. Would have to look at the end of the last book maybe to see who it is that went up on the plain... I think that Mr. Cook, makes mention that the third person that survived off of the plain instigated the rebellion that was called the "Kiaulune Wars" Direct Quote: "Only fifty people had ventured otu onto that plain of glittering stone. Half of those people had not been Company. Only two of those fifty had returned to lie about what had happened. And a third who had come back to retell the truth had been killed in the Kiaulune wars, far away from the capital." Mr Cook goes on to name the two: "But the deciets of Soulcather and Willow Swan fooled no one, then or now", but never mentions the third. Any comments? Axemaster 61 Cleric Lilaxe 58 Warrior ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mokie Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali Date: 30 Oct 2002 15:59:39 -0600 > That doesn't mean he did. Really, how much imagination does it take to > create a generic blood-thirsty goddess of death that wears a skull necklace, > and then write vague myths about her (no offense to Mr. Cook's writing or > imagination is intended here)? I'm not sure if Kina is all that generic, especially when the cult is added in--it all pointed pretty solidly to a Kali-reference to me--but then, I admit that I haven't finished the series yet and may be missing some things. And just for the sake of conversation: http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/article/0,13673,501020729-322673,00.html ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kisc Kempson" Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali Date: 30 Oct 2002 04:17:11 -0700 When I say "generic" in this context, I'm trying to say that every mythology that I know anything about has a death deity, and they are often rather blood-thirsty. A skull necklace seems like a pretty standard accoutrement for a blood-thirsty deity as well, regardless of their sphere of influence. I play way too much Monty Haul D&D, of course. To me, you can find blood-thirsty death goddesses around every corner, and probably 8 of 10 are wearing skulls for some sort of jewelry, if not always a necklace. :) To sum up, it is quite reasonable to suppose that Mr. Cook might have based his Kina on Kali ... but it isn't unreasonable, if you don't know anything about Kali, to suppose that Mr. Cook could have taken a generic death goddess and came up with the details on his own. I don't remember why I was trying to make that point. But that's the point I was trying to make ;) Kisc > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of mokie > Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 3:00 PM > To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali > > > > That doesn't mean he did. Really, how much imagination does it take to > > create a generic blood-thirsty goddess of death that wears a > skull necklace, > > and then write vague myths about her (no offense to Mr. Cook's > writing or > > imagination is intended here)? > > I'm not sure if Kina is all that generic, especially when the cult is > added in--it all pointed pretty solidly to a Kali-reference to me--but > then, I admit that I haven't finished the series yet and may be missing > some things. > > And just for the sake of conversation: > http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/article/0,13673,501020729-3 > 22673,00.html > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Carl Forester" Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali Date: 30 Oct 2002 16:26:45 -0600 I sort of see what your getting at.. However at least for me anyway the similarities seem a bit more than a coincidence especially when you throw in the Thugs/Stranglers. Did you by chance read the description of the Thugs? I'm not criticizing Cook in anyway. When I ran across it I just thought it was very interesting. As I said a personal epiphany. -carl- -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Kisc Kempson Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 05:17 When I say "generic" in this context, I'm trying to say that every mythology that I know anything about has a death deity, and they are often rather blood-thirsty. A skull necklace seems like a pretty standard accoutrement for a blood-thirsty deity as well, regardless of their sphere of influence. I play way too much Monty Haul D&D, of course. To me, you can find blood-thirsty death goddesses around every corner, and probably 8 of 10 are wearing skulls for some sort of jewelry, if not always a necklace. :) To sum up, it is quite reasonable to suppose that Mr. Cook might have based his Kina on Kali ... but it isn't unreasonable, if you don't know anything about Kali, to suppose that Mr. Cook could have taken a generic death goddess and came up with the details on his own. I don't remember why I was trying to make that point. But that's the point I was trying to make ;) Kisc > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of mokie > Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 3:00 PM > To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali > > > > That doesn't mean he did. Really, how much imagination does it take > > to create a generic blood-thirsty goddess of death that wears a > skull necklace, > > and then write vague myths about her (no offense to Mr. Cook's > writing or > > imagination is intended here)? > > I'm not sure if Kina is all that generic, especially when the cult is > added in--it all pointed pretty solidly to a Kali-reference to me--but > then, I admit that I haven't finished the series yet and may be > missing some things. > > And just for the sake of conversation: > http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/article/0,13673,501020729-3 > 22673,00.html > > ====================================================================== > = > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Stacey Harris Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali Date: 30 Oct 2002 17:38:43 -0500 Carl, Yes, the origin of Kina in Kali is very evident to those who are familiar with Hindu mythology (as is the elephant-headed god, one of the popular favorites among Hindus). Similarly, the Deceivers are very evidently drawn from the Thugees (though I hadn't previously been aware that the parallels were quite so close, including the pickaxe symbol). The entire Book of the South draws very strongly on the religions and customs of South and South-East Asia (with some admixture from equatorial Africa). Swan and Mather are clearly recognizable as stand-ins for Vietnam-war-era GIs who stayed in-country. Steve ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sam Roberts Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali Date: 30 Oct 2002 15:40:18 -0700 Having been previously familiar with Kali and the Thug cult (research for an RPG game I ran many years ago), when I first read the Books of the South, I took it for granted that Cook had based Kina and her followers on them. There were so many specific similarities, it never occurred to me to think otherwise. That being said, I don't think it's a bad thing at all. Look at all the other fantasy novels around using things like Celtic mysticism and the Arthur legends for inspiration. I distinctly remember being excited that someone had based a culture in a fantasy novel on something other than the old Celtic/pagan standby stuff. More power to him, I say. Sam Roberts "On two occasions I have been asked [by Members of Parliament], `Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." - Charles Babbage (inventor of the Difference Engine, an early mechanical computer) -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 3:27 PM I sort of see what your getting at.. However at least for me anyway the similarities seem a bit more than a coincidence especially when you throw in the Thugs/Stranglers. Did you by chance read the description of the Thugs? I'm not criticizing Cook in anyway. When I ran across it I just thought it was very interesting. As I said a personal epiphany. -carl- -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Kisc Kempson Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 05:17 When I say "generic" in this context, I'm trying to say that every mythology that I know anything about has a death deity, and they are often rather blood-thirsty. A skull necklace seems like a pretty standard accoutrement for a blood-thirsty deity as well, regardless of their sphere of influence. I play way too much Monty Haul D&D, of course. To me, you can find blood-thirsty death goddesses around every corner, and probably 8 of 10 are wearing skulls for some sort of jewelry, if not always a necklace. :) To sum up, it is quite reasonable to suppose that Mr. Cook might have based his Kina on Kali ... but it isn't unreasonable, if you don't know anything about Kali, to suppose that Mr. Cook could have taken a generic death goddess and came up with the details on his own. I don't remember why I was trying to make that point. But that's the point I was trying to make ;) Kisc > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of mokie > Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 3:00 PM > To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali > > > > That doesn't mean he did. Really, how much imagination does it take > > to create a generic blood-thirsty goddess of death that wears a > skull necklace, > > and then write vague myths about her (no offense to Mr. Cook's > writing or > > imagination is intended here)? > > I'm not sure if Kina is all that generic, especially when the cult is > added in--it all pointed pretty solidly to a Kali-reference to me--but > then, I admit that I haven't finished the series yet and may be > missing some things. > > And just for the sake of conversation: > http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/article/0,13673,501020729-3 > 22673,00.html > > ====================================================================== > = > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Stacey Harris Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali Date: 30 Oct 2002 17:41:47 -0500 Kim, Kali and Shiva are alternate personae of (more or less) the same diety in Hinduism. Actually, there is a triumvirate, Shiva/Vishnu/Kali: Shiva the Creator, Vishnu the Preserver, Kali the Destroyer. I don't really know how this compares (in terms of 3-in-1) to Catholism's Trinity--but, then, I don't really understand the Catholic Trinity. Steve ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kisc Kempson" Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali Date: 30 Oct 2002 04:44:59 -0700 I didn't actually read much of the description before I deleted the email, just sort of skimmed it. I always sort of assumed that Kina was at least loosely based on an actual Hindu or other goddess of our world, and didn't care too much about the details while I'm at work. I guess I thought you sounded surprised that an author would do that, so I may have been trying to suggest why, while at the same time suggesting that Cook seems inventive enough that he could have done it on his own... but again, why reinvent the deity? Or something. Kisc Like I can remember what I was thinking that long ago. Sheesh. ;) > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Carl > Forester > Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 3:27 PM > To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali > > > I sort of see what your getting at.. However at least for me anyway the > similarities seem a bit more than a coincidence especially when you > throw in the Thugs/Stranglers. Did you by chance read the description > of the Thugs? I'm not criticizing Cook in anyway. When I ran across it > I just thought it was very interesting. As I said a personal epiphany. > > -carl- > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Kisc > Kempson > Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 05:17 > To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali > > > When I say "generic" in this context, I'm trying to say that every > mythology that I know anything about has a death deity, and they are > often rather blood-thirsty. A skull necklace seems like a pretty > standard accoutrement for a blood-thirsty deity as well, regardless of > their sphere of influence. > > I play way too much Monty Haul D&D, of course. To me, you can find > blood-thirsty death goddesses around every corner, and probably 8 of 10 > are wearing skulls for some sort of jewelry, if not always a necklace. > :) > > To sum up, it is quite reasonable to suppose that Mr. Cook might have > based his Kina on Kali ... but it isn't unreasonable, if you don't know > anything about Kali, to suppose that Mr. Cook could have taken a generic > death goddess and came up with the details on his own. > > I don't remember why I was trying to make that point. But that's the > point I was trying to make ;) > > Kisc > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > > [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of mokie > > Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 3:00 PM > > To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali > > > > > > > That doesn't mean he did. Really, how much imagination does it take > > > to create a generic blood-thirsty goddess of death that wears a > > skull necklace, > > > and then write vague myths about her (no offense to Mr. Cook's > > writing or > > > imagination is intended here)? > > > > I'm not sure if Kina is all that generic, especially when the cult is > > added in--it all pointed pretty solidly to a Kali-reference to me--but > > > then, I admit that I haven't finished the series yet and may be > > missing some things. > > > > And just for the sake of conversation: > > http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/article/0,13673,501020729-3 > > 22673,00.html > > > > ====================================================================== > > = > > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > > visit . > > > > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit > . > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kisc Kempson" Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali Date: 30 Oct 2002 04:58:39 -0700 Thanks for that note, Steve. I knew there was some relationship, but it isn't something I've spent much time with, so I can never remember just what the details are. Thinking back, I recall that three faces seems like a distinctly Indian sort of concept in the back of my mind. Not being a Catholic, I can't speak to the specifics of the trinity with any authority, nor can I on the Hindu part ... however, my vague understanding suggests that in both of those cases, we're talking about different incarnations of the same deity. Although I must say that the Hindu Trinity, if you'll allow me to, seems to be both more and less joined at the hip when compared to the Catholic Trinity. I am almost certain that I recall Shiva/Vishnu/Kali working at cross purposes, as well as occasionally directly against one another. The little bit I recall about Hinduism seems to suggest that this is one of those things you just learn to accept, because it is the way of existence or something. I don't think it is like Piers Anthony's Sisters of Fate (from the Incarnation of Immortality series) ... that was three people stuck in one body. Shiva is always referred to as the Destroyer in the Remo Williams books. And, in a completely unrelated and useless bit of information, is the Ice Goddess in Final Fantasy mythology. Alright, in order to drag myself vaguely back on topic... Does the big guy in the middle of the plain suggest any Terran deity to anyone? There isn't anything that I remember hearing of, but a deity that is stuck and just remembers seems pretty straightforward to me... would take far less imagination, I'd think, than Prometheus, for instance. Derrill > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Stacey > Harris > Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 3:42 PM > To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali > > > Kim, > > Kali and Shiva are alternate personae of (more or less) the same diety > in Hinduism. Actually, there is a triumvirate, Shiva/Vishnu/Kali: Shiva > the Creator, Vishnu the Preserver, Kali the Destroyer. I don't really > know how this compares (in terms of 3-in-1) to Catholism's Trinity--but, > then, I don't really understand the Catholic Trinity. > > Steve > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Stacey Harris Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali Date: 30 Oct 2002 18:14:17 -0500 Derrill, "Does the big guy in the middle of the plain suggest any Terran deity to anyone?" Spoiler for "Soldiers Live" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . The only thing that occurs to me (besides Prometheus--good call on that) is Atlas. What I'm thinking of here is the time that Atlas got Hercules to take the burden of holding the world off his shoulders for a while (at least, I think that's part of Greek mythology), as a loose analogy with Croaker's volunteering to take up the post of the "big guey in the middle of the plain". Steve ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Andrew Skowronski" Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali Date: 30 Oct 2002 18:33:26 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C28042.D674C950 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0009_01C28042.D6764FF0" ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C28042.D6764FF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MessageGood call, I'd never realised that Kina was based on a "real" god. You can find some pretty wacky websites if you search for Kali on the internet.... Here's a picture. Not exactly as scary as what I pictured in my head. -Andrew -----Original Message----- From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Carl Forester Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 4:24 PM To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com Subject: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali This may have been mentioned before, I haven't been on the list long. I was reading an article on MSN about the Scariest Monster's around the Globe. One of them that was mentioned was an Indian goddess named Kali (Description of kali and the Thugs below) which sounds very close to the description of Kina and the Strangler. Just a personal epiphany I thought I would share. -carl- Kali Kali (feminine form of Sanskrit kala,"time" or "dark"), consort of the Hindu god Shiva in her manifestation of the power of time. A destructive mother goddess, Kali is frequently depicted as a black, laughing, naked hag with blood-stained teeth, a protruding tongue, and a garland of human skulls. She usually has four arms: One hand holds a sword, the second holds a severed human head, the third is believed by her devotees to be removing fear, and the fourth is often interpreted as granting bliss. Kali-omnipotent, absolute, and all-pervasive-is beyond fear and finite existence and is therefore believed to be able to protect her devotees against fear and to give them limitless peace. Finally, as absolute night, devouring all that exists, she is sometimes depicted as standing on the corpse of Shiva, which, like the garland of skulls, symbolizes the remains of finite existence. Kali's worshipers purportedly appeased her in the past with human sacrifices; today she is propitiated with the blood of mammals. Under the title Bhavani, she was invoked by the secret brotherhood of murderers called Thugs. The city of Calcutta (now Kolkata) received its name from Kali; Calcutta is the Anglicized form of Kalighata, the name of a large temple dedicated to Kali. How to cite this article: "Kali," MicrosoftR EncartaR Online Encyclopedia 2002 http://encarta.msn.com C 1997-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All Rights Reserved. C 1993-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All Rights Reserved. Thugs Thugs (from Sanskrit sthag,"conceal" or "deceive"), former secret organization of robbers in India, who always strangled their victims. Devotees of the goddess Kali, they regarded their activities as religious rituals; new members were initiated in an elaborate ceremony, and they worshiped, as a symbol of the goddess, the pickax with which they dug the graves of their victims. Included in their ranks were many Brahmins and respectable businessmen. In October, they would meet in bands of from 10 to 200 and set out on the highways, where they would set upon wealthy travelers, strangle them with a cloth, distribute the booty, and flee. A portion of the booty was always presented as an offering to the goddess in one of her temples. Thugs arose in northern India before the Muslim conquest in the 12th century ad and thrived, with extraordinary immunity from prosecution under Hindu law, until 1829, when Lord William Bentinck, the British governor-general of India, began to investigate the organization, perhaps because of thugee activity directed against British soldiers and government officials. The campaign against the Thugs, directed by Sir W. H. Sleeman, was remarkably successful. Within seven years more than 3000 of them had been imprisoned or hanged, and the Thugs were wiped out. Contributed By: Wendy Doniger, M.A., Ph.D., D.Phil. Mircea Eliade Professor of History of Religions and Indian Studies, University of Chicago. Author of The Origins of Evil in Hindu Mythology, Siva: the Erotic Ascetic, and Dreams, Illusion, and Other Realities. How to cite this article: "Thugs," MicrosoftR EncartaR Online Encyclopedia 2002 http://encarta.msn.com C 1997-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All Rights Reserved. C 1993-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All Rights Reserved. -----Original Message----- From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Axemaster2001@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 10:45 To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Soldiers Live In a message dated 10/29/02 9:44:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, nsjavvaji@hotmail.com writes: Been awhile since i read the books, but now you got me wanting to go back and re read this. Would have to look at the end of the last book maybe to see who it is that went up on the plain... I think that Mr. Cook, makes mention that the third person that survived off of the plain instigated the rebellion that was called the "Kiaulune Wars" Direct Quote: "Only fifty people had ventured otu onto that plain of glittering stone. Half of those people had not been Company. Only two of those fifty had returned to lie about what had happened. And a third who had come back to retell the truth had been killed in the Kiaulune wars, far away from the capital." Mr Cook goes on to name the two: "But the deciets of Soulcather and Willow Swan fooled no one, then or now", but never mentions the third. Any comments? Axemaster 61 Cleric Lilaxe 58 Warrior ------=_NextPart_001_0009_01C28042.D6764FF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Good=20 call, I'd never realised that Kina was based on a "real"=20 god.
 
You=20 can find some pretty wacky websites if you search for Kali on the = internet....=20
 
Here's=20 a picture.  Not exactly as scary as what I pictured in my=20 head.
 
-Andrew
 
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com=20 [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of = Carl=20 Forester
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 4:24 = PM
To:=20 glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
Subject: (glencook-fans) = Kina is=20 realy Kali

This=20 may have been mentioned before, I haven't been on the list long.  = I was=20 reading an article on MSN about the Scariest Monster's around the = Globe. One=20 of them that was mentioned was an Indian goddess named Kali = (Description of=20 kali and the Thugs below) which sounds very close to the description = of Kina=20 and the Strangler.  Just a personal epiphany I thought I would=20 share.
 
-carl-
 
Kali

Kali = (feminine form=20 of Sanskrit kala,”time” or “dark”), = consort of the Hindu god Shiva in=20 her manifestation of the power of time. A destructive mother goddess, = Kali is=20 frequently depicted as a black, laughing, naked hag with blood-stained = teeth,=20 a protruding tongue, and a garland of human skulls. She usually has = four arms:=20 One hand holds a sword, the second holds a severed human head, the = third is=20 believed by her devotees to be removing fear, and the fourth is often=20 interpreted as granting bliss. Kali—omnipotent, absolute, and = all-pervasive—is=20 beyond fear and finite existence and is therefore believed to be able = to=20 protect her devotees against fear and to give them limitless peace. = Finally,=20 as absolute night, devouring all that exists, she is sometimes = depicted as=20 standing on the corpse of Shiva, which, like the garland of skulls, = symbolizes=20 the remains of finite existence. Kali's worshipers purportedly = appeased her in=20 the past with human sacrifices; today she is propitiated with the = blood of=20 mammals. Under the title Bhavani, she was invoked by the secret = brotherhood of murderers called Thugs. The city of Calcutta (now = Kolkata)=20 received its name from Kali; Calcutta is the Anglicized form of=20 Kalighata, the name of a large temple dedicated to=20 Kali.
How to = cite this=20 article:
"Kali," Microsoft® Encarta® Online = Encyclopedia=20 2002
http://encarta.msn.com © 1997-2002 Microsoft = Corporation. All=20 Rights Reserved.
© 1993-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All = Rights=20 Reserved.
 
Thugs

Thugs = (from Sanskrit=20 sthag,”conceal” or “deceive”), former = secret organization of robbers in=20 India, who always strangled their victims. Devotees of the goddess = Kali, they=20 regarded their activities as religious rituals; new members were = initiated in=20 an elaborate ceremony, and they worshiped, as a symbol of the goddess, = the=20 pickax with which they dug the graves of their victims. Included in = their=20 ranks were many Brahmins and respectable businessmen. In October, they = would=20 meet in bands of from 10 to 200 and set out on the highways, where = they would=20 set upon wealthy travelers, strangle them with a cloth, distribute the = booty,=20 and flee. A portion of the booty was always presented as an offering = to the=20 goddess in one of her temples. Thugs arose in northern India before = the Muslim=20 conquest in the 12th century ad and = thrived, with=20 extraordinary immunity from prosecution under Hindu law, until 1829, = when Lord=20 William Bentinck, the British governor-general of India, began to = investigate=20 the organization, perhaps because of thugee activity directed against = British=20 soldiers and government officials. The campaign against the Thugs, = directed by=20 Sir W. H. Sleeman, was remarkably successful. Within seven years more = than=20 3000 of them had been imprisoned or hanged, and the Thugs were wiped=20 out.
Contributed By:
Wendy Doniger, M.A., = Ph.D.,=20 D.Phil.
Mircea Eliade Professor of History of Religions = and=20 Indian Studies, University of Chicago. Author of The Origins = of Evil=20 in Hindu Mythology, Siva: the Erotic Ascetic, and Dreams, = Illusion, and Other Realities.
How to = cite this=20 article:
"Thugs," Microsoft® Encarta® Online = Encyclopedia=20 2002
http://encarta.msn.com © 1997-2002 Microsoft = Corporation. All=20 Rights Reserved.
© 1993-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All = Rights=20 Reserved.
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com=20 [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of=20 Axemaster2001@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002=20 10:45
To: = glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re:=20 (glencook-fans) Soldiers Live

In a=20 message dated 10/29/02 9:44:39 AM Eastern Standard Time,=20 nsjavvaji@hotmail.com writes:

Been awhile since i read the = books, but=20 now you got me wanting to go back and re read this. Would have to = look at=20 the end of the last book maybe to see who it is that went up on the=20 plain...


I think that Mr. Cook, makes mention that the third = person=20 that survived off
of the plain instigated the rebellion that = was=20 called the "Kiaulune Wars"

Direct Quote:

"Only fifty = people=20 had ventured otu onto that plain of glittering stone.  =
Half of=20 those people had not been Company.  Only two of those fifty = had=20
returned to lie about what had happened.  And a third who = had=20 come back to
retell the truth had been killed in the Kiaulune = wars,=20 far away from the
capital."

Mr Cook goes on to name the = two:=20 "But the deciets of Soulcather and Willow
Swan fooled no one, = then or=20 now", but never mentions the third.


Any=20 comments?







Axemaster=  =20 61 Cleric
Lilaxe 58=20 Warrior
   =20
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Kali Date: 30 Oct 2002 21:54:51 EST Steve: "The only thing that occurs to me (besides Prometheus--good call on that) is Atlas. What I'm thinking of here is the time that Atlas got Hercules to take the burden of holding the world off his shoulders for a while (at least, I think that's part of Greek mythology)[...]" Spoiler for "Soldiers Live" This fits the story, but with a little change: other myths say that Perseus returned to Atlas and showed him the head of Medusa, turning him to stone. Perhaps Cook had this in mind when he wrote the ending of SL? There is another myth which states that Atlas was relieved of his labor, and instead was later just commanded to oversee a bunch of pillars which held up the sky. (Greek myths aren't known for their organizational or chronological qualities). I guess none of those fit perfectly. Unless there are any other possible connections, it seems the ending of SL was more original than we thought? -Welly ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: schew@interzone.com (Steve Chew) Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali Date: 31 Oct 2002 03:47:48 -0500 (EST) Kina and the deceivers definitely seem based on Kali and the Thugs to me. I like what Cook does with it. And it's nice to have a somewhat different perspective beyond the often used Arthurian mythos. "Great authors steal" after all. :) > >Does the big guy in the middle of the plain suggest any Terran deity to >anyone? There isn't anything that I remember hearing of, but a deity that is >stuck and just remembers seems pretty straightforward to me... would take >far less imagination, I'd think, than Prometheus, for instance. > That's an interesting question. Vishnu is the "preserver" but the descriptions of him don't mention memory. I thought that Mimir might fit the bill, but he turned out to be more in the line of handing out wisdom, not retaining memories. I haven't found any other mythical figures that are very close yet. BTW, while looking up Mimir in the Norse mythology I came across Odin's ravens Hugin and Munin who scoured the land gathering information for Odin. Sound familiar? ;-) Steve ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Robo Tchas Subject: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology Date: 31 Oct 2002 01:36:54 -0800 (PST) Someone said "Shiva the Creator, Vishnu the Preserver, Kali the Destroyer" - Actually, it's Brahma the Creator, Vishnu the Preserver, and Shiva the Destroyer. Shiva isn't necessarily evil, he's more a force of change. Kali is sort of the consort or female counterpart of Shiva, and definitely the basis for Kina. I really liked the fact that it was hard to tie any of the cultures in the Books of the North to any specific Earth culture (well, Forsberger is sorta Germanic and the Jewel Cities somewhat Levantine), thanks to the use of plain English instead of the usual faux-European (esp. faux-Tolkien) or faux-Klingon (ie completely made up) nomenclature. A soft-headed friend of mine complained about this very fact, but I read it as if all the names had been translated into English with their actual meanings wherever there was one...clever and actually very distinctive (Los Angeles means something too you know). That said, it was also cool to see someone using Southeast Asian culture (Taglios = New Delhi, Nyueng Bao = Vietnamese, etc.) and using it well. Cook's interest in other cultures is one of the assets that makes him such a great writer. And as a side note, could people turn off any HTML/MIME/Microsoft garbage that adds fancy things to your email? It all shows up as Sanskrit for those of us sticking to text. Thanks. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Fraser=20Ronald?= Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali Date: 31 Oct 2002 15:13:42 +0000 (GMT) --- Kisc Kempson wrote: > When I say "generic" in this context, I'm trying to > say that every mythology > that I know anything about has a death deity, and > they are often rather > blood-thirsty. A skull necklace seems like a pretty > standard accoutrement > for a blood-thirsty deity as well, regardless of > their sphere of influence. > The question then becomes, why are skull necklaces pretty standard accoutrements for blood-thirsty deities? Think of the other death deities that most western-educated people would know. Hades/Pluto didn't have a necklace of skulls, neither did the Norse Hel. What of other 'death' deities? The Celts, by and large, had no such deity to my knowledge (at least, not a real one. Samhain and Bile/Beli were put forth in the 19c as Celtic death gods, but most literature now indicates they were not). I think, based on the description of Kina and especially the Deceivers (the Thugees were also called the Deceivers), we can assume that Mr. Cook used Kali as his template for creating his own death goddess. But that's just my two cents. ===== Fraser Ronald "Sword's Edge" (http://www.swordsedge.net/) AtFantasy Alliance Fiction Archive (http://www.atfantasy.com/fiction) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Navin Javvaji" Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology Date: 31 Oct 2002 09:55:16 -0600 I don't necessaryily want to correct anyone on Hindu mythology but here are my two cents. The writer below is correct in stating that the trinity in the Hindu religon is made up of Brahma (the creator), Vishnu (the perserver), and Shiva (the destroyer). According to the Hindu religon: Shiva's father-in-law (because Shiva married a mortal) held a religous ceremony without inviting Shiva or his wife. His wife (Parvati) assumed that she was automatically invited because it was still her parents house so she went. Upon her arrival to house, her father proceeded to verbally abuse and shame in front of all of the guests. Parvati, unable to stand the humiliation, committed suicide on the spot by burning herself alive. Shiva was informed of this and in his anger tore out a bunch of his hair and smashed it against the ground causing it break into two pieces. One piece became Kali and the other piece became Yama (the God of Death). These two gods lead Shiva's army against all that stood by and watched his wife kill herself. This is probably a bit more than you wanted to know about the Hindu Religion, but I thought I should set the record straight. ----Original Message Follows---- Reply-To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com Someone said "Shiva the Creator, Vishnu the Preserver, Kali the Destroyer" - Actually, it's Brahma the Creator, Vishnu the Preserver, and Shiva the Destroyer. Shiva isn't necessarily evil, he's more a force of change. Kali is sort of the consort or female counterpart of Shiva, and definitely the basis for Kina. I really liked the fact that it was hard to tie any of the cultures in the Books of the North to any specific Earth culture (well, Forsberger is sorta Germanic and the Jewel Cities somewhat Levantine), thanks to the use of plain English instead of the usual faux-European (esp. faux-Tolkien) or faux-Klingon (ie completely made up) nomenclature. A soft-headed friend of mine complained about this very fact, but I read it as if all the names had been translated into English with their actual meanings wherever there was one...clever and actually very distinctive (Los Angeles means something too you know). That said, it was also cool to see someone using Southeast Asian culture (Taglios = New Delhi, Nyueng Bao = Vietnamese, etc.) and using it well. Cook's interest in other cultures is one of the assets that makes him such a great writer. And as a side note, could people turn off any HTML/MIME/Microsoft garbage that adds fancy things to your email? It all shows up as Sanskrit for those of us sticking to text. Thanks. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Stacey Harris Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology Date: 31 Oct 2002 10:19:03 -0600 Robo, Thanks for the correction on Brahma/Shiva. "It all shows up as Sanskrit for those of us sticking to text." Just more South Asian influence? Steve ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Derrill \"Kisc\" Guilbert" Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali Date: 31 Oct 2002 10:55:13 -0700 Ok, now you're taking me far too seriously. Didn't you people read the FAQ? I'm sure there must be an entry regarding taking me seriously. I don't doubt that Cook used Kali et al as the blueprint. I think I was trying to justify something or other ... I still say that, in D&D at least, death deitys tend to wear skulls ... maybe I'm getting my fantasy mythology mixed up with my real mythology. I thought Samhain had something to do with vodoo or something. The Celts didn't have like a Hades/Pluto fellow? Odd. Ok, now I remember what I've been trying to argue. It seems to me that, if one lived in a vacuum, inventing a bloodthirsty death-goddess might well result in something very similar to Kina/Kali. It might not, but it might. I can't remember why I'm trying to say this. Continuing to argue that Kina is indeed based on Kali is uhm preaching to the choir or something. I believe! Sing it, brother! Well, maybe not the choir, maybe the newly converted. Still though. I believe y'all, I have since the first email on this topic... I was merely trying to say, for some bizarre reason that now escapes me, that Mr. Cook could have invented Kina and wound up with something similar to Kali anyway... though maybe not as similar as she /is/, being as she is based on Kali. I shut up now :) Honest :) Kisc I know when to shut up, I know when I'm not wanted, I'm not one to keep talking when I've been aske.... |-----Original Message----- |From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com |[mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Fraser |Ronald |Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 8:14 AM |To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com |Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali | | | --- Kisc Kempson |wrote: > When I say "generic" in this context, I'm |trying to |> say that every mythology |> that I know anything about has a death deity, and |> they are often rather |> blood-thirsty. A skull necklace seems like a pretty |> standard accoutrement |> for a blood-thirsty deity as well, regardless of |> their sphere of influence. |> | |The question then becomes, why are skull necklaces |pretty standard accoutrements for blood-thirsty |deities? Think of the other death deities that most |western-educated people would know. Hades/Pluto didn't |have a necklace of skulls, neither did the Norse Hel. |What of other 'death' deities? The Celts, by and |large, had no such deity to my knowledge (at least, |not a real one. Samhain and Bile/Beli were put forth |in the 19c as Celtic death gods, but most literature |now indicates they were not). | |I think, based on the description of Kina and |especially the Deceivers (the Thugees were also called |the Deceivers), we can assume that Mr. Cook used Kali |as his template for creating his own death goddess. | |But that's just my two cents. | |===== |Fraser Ronald |"Sword's Edge" (http://www.swordsedge.net/) |AtFantasy Alliance Fiction Archive (http://www.atfantasy.com/fiction) | |__________________________________________________ |Do You Yahoo!? |Everything you'll ever need on one web page |from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts |http://uk.my.yahoo.com | |======================================================================= | To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, | visit . | ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Derrill \"Kisc\" Guilbert" Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology Date: 31 Oct 2002 10:57:05 -0700 sweet, so that means Remo didn't lie to me! Woo-hoo! Although the bit about having the avatars of Kali and Shiva fight one another does seem to break down again here... Oh well :) At least Shiva is the destroyer again! Woot! Kisc No, really, I'm shutting up now. Now. n---Now! |-----Original Message----- |From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com |[mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Navin |Javvaji |Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 8:55 AM |To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com; |glencook-fans-digest@lists.xmission.com |Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology | | | |I don't necessaryily want to correct anyone on Hindu mythology but |here are |my two cents. | |The writer below is correct in stating that the trinity in the |Hindu religon |is made up of Brahma (the creator), Vishnu (the perserver), and Shiva (the |destroyer). | |According to the Hindu religon: | |Shiva's father-in-law (because Shiva married a mortal) held a religous |ceremony without inviting Shiva or his wife. His wife (Parvati) assumed |that she was automatically invited because it was still her |parents house so |she went. Upon her arrival to house, her father proceeded to |verbally abuse |and shame in front of all of the guests. Parvati, unable to stand the |humiliation, committed suicide on the spot by burning herself alive. | |Shiva was informed of this and in his anger tore out a bunch of |his hair and |smashed it against the ground causing it break into two pieces. One piece |became Kali and the other piece became Yama (the God of Death). These two |gods lead Shiva's army against all that stood by and watched his wife kill |herself. | |This is probably a bit more than you wanted to know about the Hindu |Religion, but I thought I should set the record straight. | | |----Original Message Follows---- |From: Robo Tchas |Reply-To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com |To: glencook-fans-digest@lists.xmission.com |Subject: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology |Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 01:36:54 -0800 (PST) | |Someone said "Shiva the Creator, Vishnu the Preserver, |Kali the Destroyer" - | |Actually, it's Brahma the Creator, Vishnu the |Preserver, and Shiva the Destroyer. Shiva isn't |necessarily evil, he's more a force of change. Kali is |sort of the consort or female counterpart of Shiva, |and definitely the basis for Kina. | |I really liked the fact that it was hard to tie any of |the cultures in the Books of the North to any specific |Earth culture (well, Forsberger is sorta Germanic and |the Jewel Cities somewhat Levantine), thanks to the |use of plain English instead of the usual |faux-European (esp. faux-Tolkien) or faux-Klingon (ie |completely made up) nomenclature. A soft-headed friend |of mine complained about this very fact, but I read it |as if all the names had been translated into English |with their actual meanings wherever there was |one...clever and actually very distinctive (Los |Angeles means something too you know). That said, it |was also cool to see someone using Southeast Asian |culture (Taglios = New Delhi, Nyueng Bao = Vietnamese, |etc.) and using it well. Cook's interest in other |cultures is one of the assets that makes him such a |great writer. | | |And as a side note, could people turn off any |HTML/MIME/Microsoft garbage that adds fancy things to |your email? It all shows up as Sanskrit for those of |us sticking to text. Thanks. | |__________________________________________________ |Do you Yahoo!? |HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now |http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ | |======================================================================= | To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, | visit . | | |_________________________________________________________________ |Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online |http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 | | |======================================================================= | To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, | visit . | ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Grey Lowell Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology Date: 31 Oct 2002 12:41:14 -0800 with mythology there is rarely one correct answer, especially when there are so many religions borrowing from each other. anyway, so while the Brahma/Vishnu/Shiva is a basis, there is a case of a trilogy of Shiva, Vishnu and Devi (with Kali being one of the personifications of Devi, but then again what female god isn't?) though i'm not up on what geographical regions support what views, hierarchies and creation myths, etc. generally a muddle which is something i think Cook demonstrates at more than one point... about which (to bring us back to reason for this list) i'd like to raise the question of what people think his take on organized (or disorganized) religion is as pertains to his writings. perhaps this has been hashed out already, but i'm curious to see if those of you who have religious convictions take a different view of Cook's various attempts to rationalize the human reliance on religion. GReY. On Thursday, Oct 31, 2002, at 09:57 US/Pacific, Derrill "Kisc" Guilbert wrote: > sweet, so that means Remo didn't lie to me! Woo-hoo! > > Although the bit about having the avatars of Kali and Shiva fight one > another does seem to break down again here... Oh well :) > > At least Shiva is the destroyer again! Woot! > > Kisc > No, really, I'm shutting up now. Now. n---Now! ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kisc Kempson" Subject: re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) Date: 31 Oct 2002 04:12:17 -0700 I'm not sure what you're asking. You see, as a man with religious convictions, I have a difficult time answering other than: any attempt to rationalize the human reliance on religion is misguided. There is a God. We must learn to rely on Him. There are a lot of people who bury themselves (or are buried by others) in rhetoric and zeal, and pull their convictions so far from anything to do with today's reality. There are a ton of people who are waiting to take advantage of whoever they can... some people are too trusting, too blind of faith. I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, aka the Mormons. I very strongly believe that what I'm taught is as correct as it gets, on Earth. However, I've been overheard to say, from time to time, "I would enjoy church a lot more if it wasn't for all the damn Mormons." Some people go to church for the wrong reason; some people go to church for the right reasons, but don't live their convictions in any meaningful way. Some people -- me, for instance -- are closet misanthropes and couldn't be pleased even if you put a cherry on top. (Most of us, of course, have every one of these flaws in greater or lesser degrees. People often get categorized by what you see them doing when you're in a bad mood.) All of these (and many other) sorts of things lead to people who don't believe in a deity at all. If, for extreme example, Father Clemente raped you when you were a teenager, then anything he says he believes must be absolute crap. Folks who don't believe in deity at all would be the folks who would need to rationalize humanity's reliance on religion. Folks who believe in deity would answer similarly to me: Well, He's there, isn't He? What's to rationalize? Humanity is drawn by an inbuilt tendency to search for the Creator. A very polite "duh" would seem the best answer here :) So... Uhm... can you clarify a little bit what you are asking? I rather suspect that my answer has nothing to do with the question you asked, as opposed to the question I read. Derrill > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Grey Lowell > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 1:41 PM > To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology > > > > with mythology there is rarely one correct answer, especially when > there are so many religions borrowing from each other. > > anyway, so while the Brahma/Vishnu/Shiva is a basis, there is a case of > a trilogy of Shiva, Vishnu and Devi (with Kali being one of the > personifications of Devi, but then again what female god isn't?) though > i'm not up on what geographical regions support what views, hierarchies > and creation myths, etc. generally a muddle which is something i think > Cook demonstrates at more than one point... > > about which (to bring us back to reason for this list) i'd like to > raise the question of what people think his take on organized (or > disorganized) religion is as pertains to his writings. perhaps this has > been hashed out already, but i'm curious to see if those of you who > have religious convictions take a different view of Cook's various > attempts to rationalize the human reliance on religion. > > GReY. > > On Thursday, Oct 31, 2002, at 09:57 US/Pacific, Derrill "Kisc" Guilbert > wrote: > > > sweet, so that means Remo didn't lie to me! Woo-hoo! > > > > Although the bit about having the avatars of Kali and Shiva fight one > > another does seem to break down again here... Oh well :) > > > > At least Shiva is the destroyer again! Woot! > > > > Kisc > > No, really, I'm shutting up now. Now. n---Now! > > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michele Riccio" Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali Date: 31 Oct 2002 17:35:58 -0500 On 31 Oct 2002 at 10:55, Derrill "Kisc" Guilbert wrote > > I thought Samhain had something to do with vodoo or something. > > The Celts didn't have like a Hades/Pluto fellow? Odd. > In answer to your semi-questions. Samhain is the Celtic celebration, which became Halloween (how apropos that today is October 31...). As it was explained to me - Samhain is the day on which the "curtain" between the living and the dead is thinnest. The Celts do/did (?) have a "death" god - or Lord of the underworld, Anwen (sp?) (that's the Welsh version - I can't remember the Irish). Also - Mannannan (sp?) is considered the Lord of Tir na n'Og, which is where all good Celts go when they die ;-) Yes, I know this has nothing to do with the books - but I hardly ever get a chance to show off my esoteric knowledge. happy halloween Michele Riccio mr1@rcosta.com ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Axemaster2001@aol.com Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) Date: 31 Oct 2002 17:42:26 EST --part1_1aa.b40defe.2af30bd2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/31/02 5:16:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, ninjaspam2@insaneninjahero.com writes: > >about which (to bring us back to reason for this list) i'd like to > >raise the question of what people think his take on organized (or > >disorganized) religion is as pertains to his writings. perhaps this has > >been hashed out already, but i'm curious to see if those of you who > >have religious convictions take a different view of Cook's various > >attempts to rationalize the human reliance on religion. > > > >GReY. > so those of us without religous convictions cant answer? ive always believed religion was for the weak. those who need some higher power to direct them in how to act and what do to. Ive always wanted there to be some movement where the actions of a person are ruled by their conscious rather than the threat of living in eternal damnation. however, that would mean we would all have to be concerned about each other and work together to make a better world, something the majority obviously cant do, hence their reliance on religion.... and all that from a guy that plays a cleric!! Axemaster 61 Cleric Lilaxe 58 Warrior --part1_1aa.b40defe.2af30bd2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/31/02 5:16:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, ninjaspam2@insaneninjahero.com writes:

>about which (to bring us back to reason for this list) i'd like to
>raise the question of what people think his take on organized (or
>disorganized) religion is as pertains to his writings. perhaps this has
>been hashed out already, but i'm curious to see if those of you who
>have religious convictions take a different view of Cook's various
>attempts to rationalize the human reliance on religion.
>
>GReY.


so those of us without religous convictions cant answer?

ive always believed religion was for the weak. those who need some higher power to direct them in how to act and what do to. Ive always wanted there to be some movement where the actions of a person are ruled by their conscious rather than the threat of living in eternal damnation. however, that would mean we would all have to be concerned about each other and work together to make a better world, something the majority obviously cant do, hence their reliance on religion....

and all that from a guy that plays a cleric!!


Axemaster  61 Cleric
Lilaxe 58 Warrior
   
--part1_1aa.b40defe.2af30bd2_boundary-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kisc Kempson" Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali Date: 31 Oct 2002 04:50:27 -0700 Michele wrote: > The Celts do/did (?) have a "death" god - or Lord of the underworld, > Anwen (sp?) (that's the Welsh version - I can't remember the Irish). > Also - Mannannan (sp?) is considered the Lord of Tir na n'Og, which > is where all good Celts go when they die ;-) In my unending effort to steer email lists off course, I ask the following: Does that sound vaguely Klingon, or is it just me? Derrill Heh. ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kisc Kempson" Subject: RE: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) Date: 31 Oct 2002 05:01:26 -0700 Axemaster, I think you're making a mistake, assuming that it is all because of weakness. Too off-topic, what I was writing. Suffice to say, I don't need God as an excuse to be good. I would rather NOT be good. But, for various reasons, I am confident that God exists, and that I have some vague idea of what He wants of me. So, I'd rather do that than not go to Heaven. Since I'm sort of stuck believing in Him and all. Blah. Kisc Misanthrope at large. -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Axemaster2001@aol.com Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 3:42 PM In a message dated 10/31/02 5:16:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, ninjaspam2@insaneninjahero.com writes: >about which (to bring us back to reason for this list) i'd like to >raise the question of what people think his take on organized (or >disorganized) religion is as pertains to his writings. perhaps this has >been hashed out already, but i'm curious to see if those of you who >have religious convictions take a different view of Cook's various >attempts to rationalize the human reliance on religion. > >GReY. so those of us without religous convictions cant answer? ive always believed religion was for the weak. those who need some higher power to direct them in how to act and what do to. Ive always wanted there to be some movement where the actions of a person are ruled by their conscious rather than the threat of living in eternal damnation. however, that would mean we would all have to be concerned about each other and work together to make a better world, something the majority obviously cant do, hence their reliance on religion.... and all that from a guy that plays a cleric!! Axemaster 61 Cleric Lilaxe 58 Warrior ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jrraney@attbi.com Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) Date: 31 Oct 2002 23:33:48 +0000 You're an idiot. Religion for the weak? I would say that any mood-altering substance is for the weak, whether it is alcohol or religion. Some of us do not adhere to a religion because of the need for an emotional crutch, however. Some of us adhere to a religion because we believe it to be the only thing that makes sense. I could name many men who happen to be religious who also happen to be much stronger than you could ever be. I wish people would keep this list strictly to cook. I do not care about what some pasty little fool thinks about politics/history/religion. Keep it to yourself. No one cares. > so those of us without religous convictions cant answer? > > ive always believed religion was for the weak. those who need some higher > power to direct them in how to act and what do to. Ive always wanted there to > be some movement where the actions of a person are ruled by their conscious > rather than the threat of living in eternal damnation. however, that would > mean we would all have to be concerned about each other and work together to > make a better world, something the majority obviously cant do, hence their > reliance on religion.... > > and all that from a guy that plays a cleric!! > > > Axemaster 61 > Cleric > Lilaxe 58 > Warrior > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Peter Leitch Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) Date: 31 Oct 2002 16:48:52 -0800 Gee, I thought this was a topic on religion and how it ties in with the teachings, strick that, writings of Glen Cook! Recently, I came across a reference to the White Rose. A search on the internet turned up "White Rose: Student group in Nazi Germany who resisted Hitler". I think it is great that Cook is a able to tie together politics/history/religion into a tale that is enjoyable to read. It's strange that someone that attests: "Some of us adhere to a religion" would slam someone else for commenting on religion. A sensitive topic, I guess. jrraney@attbi.com wrote: > You're an idiot. > > Religion for the weak? I would say that any > mood-altering substance is for the weak, whether it is > alcohol or religion. Some of us do not adhere to a > religion because of the need for an emotional crutch, > however. Some of us adhere to a religion because we > believe it to be the only thing that makes sense. > > I could name many men who happen to be religious who also > happen to be much stronger than you could ever be. > > I wish people would keep this list strictly to cook. I > do not care about what some pasty little fool thinks > about politics/history/religion. Keep it to yourself. > No one cares. > > > > > >>so those of us without religous convictions cant answer? >> >>ive always believed religion was for the weak. those who need some higher >>power to direct them in how to act and what do to. Ive always wanted there to >>be some movement where the actions of a person are ruled by their conscious >>rather than the threat of living in eternal damnation. however, that would >>mean we would all have to be concerned about each other and work together to >>make a better world, something the majority obviously cant do, hence their >>reliance on religion.... >> >>and all that from a guy that plays a cleric!! >> >> >>Axemaster 61 >>Cleric >>Lilaxe 58 >>Warrior >> >> > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Axemaster2001@aol.com Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) Date: 01 Nov 2002 00:40:34 EST --part1_30.2fd3cce7.2af36dd2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/31/2002 6:03:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, ninjaspam2@insaneninjahero.com writes: > > Suffice to say, I don't need God as an excuse to be good. I would rather > NOT > be good. But, for various reasons, I am confident that God exists, and that > I have some vague idea of what He wants of me. So, I'd rather do that than > not go to Heaven. Since I'm sort of stuck believing in Him and all. > > and with these words you have just validated my statements... Axemaster - Cleric 61 Lilaxe - Warrior 58 --part1_30.2fd3cce7.2af36dd2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/31/2002 6:03:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, ninjaspam2@insaneninjahero.com writes:


Suffice to say, I don't need God as an excuse to be good. I would rather NOT
be good. But, for various reasons, I am confident that God exists, and that
I have some vague idea of what He wants of me. So, I'd rather do that than
not go to Heaven. Since I'm sort of stuck believing in Him and all.



and with these words you have just validated my statements...

Axemaster - Cleric 61
Lilaxe - Warrior 58

 --part1_30.2fd3cce7.2af36dd2_boundary-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Axemaster2001@aol.com Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) Date: 01 Nov 2002 00:42:15 EST --part1_6c.250ed572.2af36e37_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/31/2002 6:35:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, jrraney@attbi.com writes: > > I wish people would keep this list strictly to cook. I > do not care about what some pasty little fool thinks > about politics/history/religion. Keep it to yourself. > No one cares. > > > Mmmm so a person on the list asked a question, and I answered. Only people who agree with you can answer? Wow, you just exhibited the other problem with religion. Intolerence for those who think different. Axemaster - Cleric 61 Lilaxe - Warrior 58 --part1_6c.250ed572.2af36e37_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/31/2002 6:35:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, jrraney@attbi.com writes:


I wish people would keep this list strictly to cook.  I
do not care about what some pasty little fool thinks
about politics/history/religion.  Keep it to yourself.
No one cares.




Mmmm so a person on the list asked a question, and I answered. Only people who agree with you can answer? Wow, you just exhibited the other problem with religion. Intolerence for those who think different.

Axemaster - Cleric 61
Lilaxe - Warrior 58

 --part1_6c.250ed572.2af36e37_boundary-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Axemaster2001@aol.com Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) Date: 01 Nov 2002 00:47:53 EST --part1_19a.aecc669.2af36f89_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/31/2002 7:49:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, pleitch@attglobal.net writes: > > Gee, I thought this was a topic on religion and how it ties in with the > teachings, strick that, writings of Glen Cook! > > your question was about what people would think of Cooks portrayal of religon, which started *someone else* posting off topic....with their religious beliefs, and how Cook would portray them, so I posted mine and wondered how Cook would portray them. As it happens Cook doesnt really list any gods in his whole series from the books of the North, and treats the "gods" of the south with Croakers attitude that maybe they arnt gods, but just supernatural creatures... Axemaster - Cleric 61 Lilaxe - Warrior 58 --part1_19a.aecc669.2af36f89_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/31/2002 7:49:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, pleitch@attglobal.net writes:


Gee, I thought this was a topic on religion and how it ties in with the
teachings, strick that, writings of Glen Cook!



your question was about what people would think of Cooks portrayal of religon, which started *someone else* posting off topic....with their religious beliefs, and how Cook would portray them, so I posted mine and wondered how Cook would portray them. 

As it happens Cook doesnt really list any gods in his whole series from the books of the North, and treats the "gods" of the south with Croakers attitude that maybe they arnt gods, but just supernatural creatures...

Axemaster - Cleric 61
Lilaxe - Warrior 58

 --part1_19a.aecc669.2af36f89_boundary-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Axemaster2001@aol.com Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) Date: 01 Nov 2002 00:49:59 EST --part1_103.1e4c1c84.2af37007_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/31/2002 7:49:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, pleitch@attglobal.net writes: > > Recently, I came across a reference to the White Rose. A search on the > internet turned up "White Rose: Student group in Nazi Germany who > resisted Hitler". > > look up Black Company, there was a military organization in Europe, I think Germanic also, and was a military company who followed a particular lord. I dont have the links anymore but Im sure its findable. Axemaster - Cleric 61 Lilaxe - Warrior 58 --part1_103.1e4c1c84.2af37007_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/31/2002 7:49:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, pleitch@attglobal.net writes:


Recently, I came across a reference to the White Rose.  A search on the
internet turned up "White Rose: Student group in Nazi Germany who
resisted Hitler".



look up Black Company, there was a military organization in Europe, I think Germanic also, and was a military company who followed a particular lord. I dont have the links anymore but Im sure its findable.

Axemaster - Cleric 61
Lilaxe - Warrior 58

 --part1_103.1e4c1c84.2af37007_boundary-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jordan Raney" Subject: RE: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) Date: 01 Nov 2002 00:34:25 -0600 >>Wow, you just exhibited the other problem with religion. Intolerence for those who think different<< I am intolerant because I uttered an objection to having myself and billions of others categorized as "weak" simply because of our beliefs? It seems that you are the intolerant one. Let me guess, you are also a staunch democrat. Peter: I have no objection to people commenting on ties between human religion/mythology and cook's writings. Read his message again and tell me how that had anything to do with cook. >>It's strange that someone that attests: "Some of us adhere to a religion" would slam someone else for commenting on religion."<< Hardly. His comment was not about religion, it was about how anyone who believes in one is weak. -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Peter Leitch Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 6:49 PM Mythology) Gee, I thought this was a topic on religion and how it ties in with the teachings, strick that, writings of Glen Cook! Recently, I came across a reference to the White Rose. A search on the internet turned up "White Rose: Student group in Nazi Germany who resisted Hitler". I think it is great that Cook is a able to tie together politics/history/religion into a tale that is enjoyable to read. It's strange that someone that attests: "Some of us adhere to a religion" would slam someone else for commenting on religion. A sensitive topic, I guess. jrraney@attbi.com wrote: > You're an idiot. > > Religion for the weak? I would say that any > mood-altering substance is for the weak, whether it is > alcohol or religion. Some of us do not adhere to a > religion because of the need for an emotional crutch, > however. Some of us adhere to a religion because we > believe it to be the only thing that makes sense. > > I could name many men who happen to be religious who also > happen to be much stronger than you could ever be. > > I wish people would keep this list strictly to cook. I > do not care about what some pasty little fool thinks > about politics/history/religion. Keep it to yourself. > No one cares. > > > > > >>so those of us without religous convictions cant answer? >> >>ive always believed religion was for the weak. those who need some higher >>power to direct them in how to act and what do to. Ive always wanted there to >>be some movement where the actions of a person are ruled by their conscious >>rather than the threat of living in eternal damnation. however, that would >>mean we would all have to be concerned about each other and work together to >>make a better world, something the majority obviously cant do, hence their >>reliance on religion.... >> >>and all that from a guy that plays a cleric!! >> >> >>Axemaster 61 >>Cleric >>Lilaxe 58 >>Warrior >> >> > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit .