From: Robert Tygers Subject: (glencook-fans) Cook on religion, politics and sex Date: 01 Nov 2002 01:54:23 -0800 (PST) An offended person remarked: > I do not care about what some pasty little fool thinks > about politics/history/religion. Keep it to yourself. > No one cares. Sounds like someone cares more than a little, but the issue isn't what WE believe but what we believe Glen believes. Cook makes his view (and it's an interesting one) of religion pretty clear in a number of places I think: in his world(s) there are superhuman entities whose power feeds off the belief of humans and whose motivations are rarely clear to their followers, but there is no overarching cosmic order or benevolent supreme being. Some examples where this comes up are Petty Pewter Gods, the Annals of the Black Company (particularly the later books), the Swordbearer and to a lesser degree the Dread Empire books dealing with the Disciple. I think Cook is probably an atheist, but that's obviously just my interpretation. He does have a pretty dark view of the universe and the meaning of life, a view which at times is somewhat nihilistic but I would call more existentialist - his heroes (and even some villains) still look for hope in spite of the night. His philosophy is another one of the reasons I'm such a big fan of his work. As for the White Rose: yeah, I'd be suprised if Cook didn't at least get the name from those guys, and I've always thought it was a very cool reference. Gives it a lot more weight than if he called the rebellion the "Golden Elves" or something. There's some stuff in the Silver Spike (not my favorite book but it has its moments) about writing anti-Imperial graffiti on the walls at night, something the actual White Rose group did as well. And there's the whole question of whether they were brave heroes or suicidal fools, a question which I'm sure would intrigue Mr. Cook. And since we're on taboo subjects, I noticed that he mentions homosexuality in a couple places - in A Passage at Arms the narrator mentions it as something he's encountered and even experimented with (but did not enjoy), at least one well-known male pair are eventually revealed as lovers (no spoilers!) and - interestingly - in Deadly Quicksilver Lies Garrett makes a lot of homophobic remarks, which (on a second read) I took as indicative of his character, in light of the book's ending, rather than as expressive of the author's views (especially considering the other examples). Again, not something you often see from writers in the scifi/fantasy genres, and another thing that lends some reality to Cook's universes. (And did Garrett have a threesome with the you-know-whos in Angry Lead Skies, or am I projecting?) __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Carl Forester" Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali Date: 01 Nov 2002 10:11:35 -0600 I think you could put that spin on it :-) -carl- -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Kisc Kempson Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 05:50 Michele wrote: > The Celts do/did (?) have a "death" god - or Lord of the underworld, > Anwen (sp?) (that's the Welsh version - I can't remember the Irish). > Also - Mannannan (sp?) is considered the Lord of Tir na n'Og, which > is where all good Celts go when they die ;-) In my unending effort to steer email lists off course, I ask the following: Does that sound vaguely Klingon, or is it just me? Derrill Heh. ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Igor Filippov Subject: RE: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) Date: 01 Nov 2002 11:15:12 -0500 (EST) He wasn't actually calling anyone "weak", he merely commented on what he considers to be the role of religion in society. I think your calling people idiots is quite out of line. Please try to express your thoughts in a more appropriate manner. And the jib about democrats has no place on this list (or anywhere in the mature society). Igor On Fri, 1 Nov 2002, Jordan Raney wrote: > >>Wow, you just exhibited the other problem with religion. Intolerence for > those who think different<< > > I am intolerant because I uttered an objection to having myself and billions > of others categorized as "weak" simply because of our beliefs? It seems > that you are the intolerant one. Let me guess, you are also a staunch > democrat. > > Peter: > I have no objection to people commenting on ties between human > religion/mythology and cook's writings. Read his message again and tell me > how that had anything to do with cook. > > >>It's strange that someone that attests: "Some of us adhere to a > religion" would slam someone else for commenting on religion."<< > > Hardly. His comment was not about religion, it was about how anyone who > believes in one is weak. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Peter Leitch > Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 6:49 PM > To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu > Mythology) > > > Gee, I thought this was a topic on religion and how it ties in with the > teachings, strick that, writings of Glen Cook! > > Recently, I came across a reference to the White Rose. A search on the > internet turned up "White Rose: Student group in Nazi Germany who > resisted Hitler". > > I think it is great that Cook is a able to tie together > politics/history/religion into a tale that is enjoyable to read. > > It's strange that someone that attests: "Some of us adhere to a > religion" would slam someone else for commenting on religion. A > sensitive topic, I guess. > > jrraney@attbi.com wrote: > > > You're an idiot. > > > > Religion for the weak? I would say that any > > mood-altering substance is for the weak, whether it is > > alcohol or religion. Some of us do not adhere to a > > religion because of the need for an emotional crutch, > > however. Some of us adhere to a religion because we > > believe it to be the only thing that makes sense. > > > > I could name many men who happen to be religious who also > > happen to be much stronger than you could ever be. > > > > I wish people would keep this list strictly to cook. I > > do not care about what some pasty little fool thinks > > about politics/history/religion. Keep it to yourself. > > No one cares. > > > > > > > > > > > >>so those of us without religous convictions cant answer? > >> > >>ive always believed religion was for the weak. those who need some higher > >>power to direct them in how to act and what do to. Ive always wanted there > to > >>be some movement where the actions of a person are ruled by their > conscious > >>rather than the threat of living in eternal damnation. however, that would > >>mean we would all have to be concerned about each other and work together > to > >>make a better world, something the majority obviously cant do, hence their > >>reliance on religion.... > >> > >>and all that from a guy that plays a cleric!! > >> > >> > >> HREF="http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=54179">Axemaster > 61 > >>Cleric > >>Lilaxe > 58 > >>Warrior > >> > >> > > > > ======================================================================= > > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > > visit . > > > > > > > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chris Holko" Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) Date: 01 Nov 2002 11:59:38 -0500 > He wasn't actually calling anyone "weak", he merely commented on > what he considers to be the role of religion in society. > I think your calling people idiots is quite out of line. > Please try to express your thoughts in a more appropriate manner. > And the jib about democrats has no place on this list (or anywhere > in the mature society). (lurker here) Oh I get it, as long as you bash religious folks you are okay, don't touch the democrats. Sheesh.. time to unsubscribe to this list. ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kisc Kempson" Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Cook on religion, politics and sex Date: 31 Oct 2002 23:03:38 -0700 Robert writes: > Cook makes his view (and it's an interesting one) of > religion pretty clear in a number of places I think: > in his world(s) there are superhuman entities whose > power feeds off the belief of humans and whose > motivations are rarely clear to their followers, but > there is no overarching cosmic order or benevolent > supreme being. Some examples where this comes up are > Petty Pewter Gods, the Annals of the Black Company > (particularly the later books), the Swordbearer and to > a lesser degree the Dread Empire books dealing with > the Disciple. I think Cook is probably an atheist, but > that's obviously just my interpretation. He does have > a pretty dark view of the universe and the meaning of > life, a view which at times is somewhat nihilistic but > I would call more existentialist - his heroes (and > even some villains) still look for hope in spite of > the night. His philosophy is another one of the > reasons I'm such a big fan of his work. I'd like to point out, as an aside, that what someone writes does not always equate to their actual beliefs. I've whined about not liking that God controls my life... If I ever actually write the stories in my head, they're going to contain frivolous gods that mess with people's lives, but get their asses kicked in the end by the heros in my books. See, I don't really believe that God is like that. Sometimes it FEELS that way, but I don't really believe it. Boy am I screwed up, eh? > > As for the White Rose: yeah, I'd be suprised if Cook > didn't at least get the name from those guys, and I've > always thought it was a very cool reference. Gives it > a lot more weight than if he called the rebellion the > "Golden Elves" or something. There's some stuff in the > Silver Spike (not my favorite book but it has its > moments) about writing anti-Imperial graffiti on the > walls at night, something the actual White Rose group > did as well. And there's the whole question of whether > they were brave heroes or suicidal fools, a question > which I'm sure would intrigue Mr. Cook. You know, I keep forgetting something. My very favorite author in the entire world is David Drake. Mr. Drake studies ancient writers a lot. And he takes stories like the Illiad and the Oddessy and he turns them into science fiction. He never tries to hide it, and in fact spends time in the foreward sometimes explaining who is which character, and which planet is which island, etc. His Hammer's Slammers books are based on his experiences with an armored cavalry company in 'Nam. Taking from existing sources seems to lend an air of reality to any work, and in spite of my long-winded babbling on other threads, it is something that I apprieciate an author doing... it seems like it would be a lot of extra work, researching all the details about a factual group like that. > > And since we're on taboo subjects, I noticed that he > mentions homosexuality in a couple places - in A > Passage at Arms the narrator mentions it as something > he's encountered and even experimented with (but did > not enjoy), at least one well-known male pair are > eventually revealed as lovers (no spoilers!) and - > interestingly - in Deadly Quicksilver Lies Garrett > makes a lot of homophobic remarks, which (on a second > read) I took as indicative of his character, in light > of the book's ending, rather than as expressive of the > author's views (especially considering the other > examples). Again, not something you often see from > writers in the scifi/fantasy genres, and another thing > that lends some reality to Cook's universes. > > (And did Garrett have a threesome with the > you-know-whos in Angry Lead Skies, or am I projecting?) You know why I love Cook's books so much? Because his characters live life almost exactly as I do: "AH! What the hell!? Well, let's see if we can't survive /this/ one." That's how I feel most of the time, and that seemed to be Croaker and Garrett's way of life as well. Kisc ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Igor Filippov Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) Date: 01 Nov 2002 12:15:25 -0500 (EST) In case you still reading this list... I don't care about repuclicans or democrats alike, I'm Russian citizen, we have a whole bunch of our own parties there (not that they're all that different). But what do you call "bashing" ? Don't you see a difference between statements "I think religion is for the weak" (I think candies are for the kids, but it doesn't mean adults can't enjoy them too...) and "You're an idiot" ? Igor On Fri, 1 Nov 2002, Chris Holko wrote: > > > He wasn't actually calling anyone "weak", he merely commented on > > what he considers to be the role of religion in society. > > I think your calling people idiots is quite out of line. > > Please try to express your thoughts in a more appropriate manner. > > And the jib about democrats has no place on this list (or anywhere > > in the mature society). > > (lurker here) > > Oh I get it, as long as you bash religious folks you are okay, don't touch > the democrats. > > Sheesh.. time to unsubscribe to this list. > > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LadyRavven@aol.com Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) Date: 01 Nov 2002 12:27:04 EST --part1_11b.193047b0.2af41368_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In reference to all this bickering all I wanted to say is that as someone who could have complained that Samhain wasn't about Voodoo (me being pagan and all....}I didn't. We are all adult and that is want makes it fun. The differences and the struggles that we each have is what makes this list fun...as it does Mr. Cooks books. I think in the end that is the point...not who or what this one or that one believes..... *back to lurking til I get moved into the new house on monday* Lady Ravven --part1_11b.193047b0.2af41368_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In reference to all this bickering all I wanted to say is that as someone who could have complained that Samhain wasn't about Voodoo (me being pagan and all....}I didn't. We are all adult and that is want makes it fun. The differences and the struggles that we each have is what makes this list fun...as it does Mr. Cooks books. I think in the end that is the point...not who or what this one or that one believes.....

*back to lurking til I get moved into the new house on monday*

Lady Ravven --part1_11b.193047b0.2af41368_boundary-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kisc Kempson" Subject: (glencook-fans) Off topic response to off topic nonsense... gets slightly on topic at the end. Date: 31 Oct 2002 23:32:48 -0700 One of the things that is endlessly entertaining about us humans is how we overreact to things said online. There are no facial expressions to use to interpret, and there is no punishment (everyone laughing in your face because you're a moron) if you misunderstand something someone said and take it completely out of context. Sometime, when you're bored, please take some time to replay a similar scenario to what has been played out in this thread, only do in in real life with real people. They will, at best, shake their heads and wonder why you aren't taking your anti-depressents. They might well kick your ass, if you pick the wrong crowd to mess with. Why is it that in email, or online in general, we feel free to be dickheads for no good reason? And please, /please/, feel free to assume I'm talking about you. Except for Igor. I'm not talking about Igor. In fact, I'm not talking about Axemaster either. I am in complete disagreement with his comments, and in fact I would love to spend time with him discussing his beliefs against religion face to face... particularly I want to try to convince him that just because someone believes in religion s/he isn't weak. (I see now that using myself as an example was the height of silliness). But none of his comments were worthy of "you're an idiot". I will add here that I think you're horribly confused if you believe Mr. Cook would agree with you, Axemaster. Regardless of Mr. Cooks beliefs about Deity, I highly doubt that he would be willing to categorically say that religious people are weak. He seems to have a broad range of experience, and one thing you learn as you get more experience with people, is that everyone is different. There is so much rich variety in this world. Sure, there're a lot of assholes, but there are a lot of people doing the best they can, and there are a lot of people willing to give up a lot to help others... some believe in God, some don't. Don't think for a moment that Croaker's attitude toward the people around him had anything to do with Mr. Cook's attitude... except that Mr. Cook has spent time in the military, and he's doubtless experienced similar things. When you're in a position where you're a member of an outside group, more or less invading an area, you'll find yourself feeling similarly. The frightening part is, you may have experiences like that when you are US Military, on US soil. That's what is scary. But I don't believe for a moment that Mr. Cook feels that way about everyone all the time. If he did, you see, he would be one dimensional. And not many people are. Kisc > In case you still reading this list... > I don't care about repuclicans or democrats alike, I'm Russian citizen, > we have a whole bunch of our own parties there (not that they're all > that different). But what do you call "bashing" ? Don't you see a > difference between statements "I think religion is for the weak" > (I think candies are for the kids, but it doesn't mean adults can't enjoy > them too...) and "You're an idiot" ? > > Igor > > > > On Fri, 1 Nov 2002, Chris Holko wrote: > > > > > > He wasn't actually calling anyone "weak", he merely commented on > > > what he considers to be the role of religion in society. > > > I think your calling people idiots is quite out of line. > > > Please try to express your thoughts in a more appropriate manner. > > > And the jib about democrats has no place on this list (or anywhere > > > in the mature society). > > > > (lurker here) > > > > Oh I get it, as long as you bash religious folks you are okay, > don't touch > > the democrats. > > > > Sheesh.. time to unsubscribe to this list. > > > > > > ======================================================================= > > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > > visit . > > > > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kisc Kempson" Subject: RE: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) Date: 31 Oct 2002 23:35:35 -0700 I really wish I could remember why I thought it had to do with Voodoo. I swear there was some sort of voodoo god or so named similarly to Samhain. I certainly didn't intend to be offensive, and thank you for not taking it that way :). I still wish I could figure out where I read something that made me think that. Happily, I don't care that much about things that /I/ believe, much less things that other people believe. Not unless it is in a fictional book that I read ;) Derrill -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of LadyRavven@aol.com Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 10:27 AM In reference to all this bickering all I wanted to say is that as someone who could have complained that Samhain wasn't about Voodoo (me being pagan and all....}I didn't. We are all adult and that is want makes it fun. The differences and the struggles that we each have is what makes this list fun...as it does Mr. Cooks books. I think in the end that is the point...not who or what this one or that one believes..... *back to lurking til I get moved into the new house on monday* Lady Ravven ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Primalchrome" Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) Date: 01 Nov 2002 11:39:44 -0600 Sounds like a double standard to me, Igor. As far as I know, religious belief or lack thereof has never been a determining factor in the overall intelligence or strength of a person. Spouting ill-conceived opinion for no other reason than to insult a fair percentage of the world population does, however, speak volumes about the person's stability and maturity. This is just as true for someone like Pat Buchanan, the Pope, or Axemaster, the AOL user. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 11:15 AM > > In case you still reading this list... > I don't care about repuclicans or democrats alike, I'm Russian citizen, > we have a whole bunch of our own parties there (not that they're all > that different). But what do you call "bashing" ? Don't you see a > difference between statements "I think religion is for the weak" > (I think candies are for the kids, but it doesn't mean adults can't enjoy > them too...) and "You're an idiot" ? > > Igor > > > > On Fri, 1 Nov 2002, Chris Holko wrote: > > > > > > He wasn't actually calling anyone "weak", he merely commented on > > > what he considers to be the role of religion in society. > > > I think your calling people idiots is quite out of line. > > > Please try to express your thoughts in a more appropriate manner. > > > And the jib about democrats has no place on this list (or anywhere > > > in the mature society). > > > > (lurker here) > > > > Oh I get it, as long as you bash religious folks you are okay, don't touch > > the democrats. > > > > Sheesh.. time to unsubscribe to this list. > > > > > > ======================================================================= > > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > > visit . > > > > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kisc Kempson" Subject: RE: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) Date: 31 Oct 2002 23:38:55 -0700 Christianity would be great, if it wasn't for all the damn Christians. - Kisc the Christian. -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Axemaster2001@aol.com Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 10:42 PM In a message dated 10/31/2002 6:35:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, jrraney@attbi.com writes: I wish people would keep this list strictly to cook. I do not care about what some pasty little fool thinks about politics/history/religion. Keep it to yourself. No one cares. Mmmm so a person on the list asked a question, and I answered. Only people who agree with you can answer? Wow, you just exhibited the other problem with religion. Intolerence for those who think different. Axemaster - Cleric 61 Lilaxe - Warrior 58 ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Axemaster2001@aol.com Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) Date: 01 Nov 2002 12:45:31 EST --part1_68.280a5cae.2af417bb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/1/02 1:34:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, jrraney@attbi.com writes: > > I am intolerant because I uttered an objection to having myself and > billions > of others categorized as "weak" simply because of our beliefs? It seems > that you are the intolerant one. Let me guess, you are also a staunch > democrat. > > Not that it has any bearing, but I'm not. Funny that again you attack me. You speak of "strength" yet show no inner strength of your own. The strongest beliefs should need no defending. --part1_68.280a5cae.2af417bb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/1/02 1:34:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, jrraney@attbi.com writes:


I am intolerant because I uttered an objection to having myself and billions
of others categorized as "weak" simply because of our beliefs?  It seems
that you are the intolerant one.  Let me guess, you are also a staunch
democrat.



Not that it has any bearing, but I'm not.

Funny that again you attack me. You speak of "strength" yet show no inner strength of your own.  The strongest beliefs should need no defending.



 --part1_68.280a5cae.2af417bb_boundary-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LadyRavven@aol.com Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) Date: 01 Nov 2002 12:48:10 EST --part1_112.19d10530.2af4185a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit why should i take it that way...to me beliefs are mine, for my reasons....i don't know that i have words to even try to say why...nor do i feel the need to. but even being Pagan, I see the similarities in many religions. (and even though for the most part I am spiritual) I at times feel that there is no one there or just rather well..."grey" for lack of better wording(not enough coffee)about religion in general....(hence why I am Lady on AOL and Soulcatcher on ICQ..lol).... as for a writers beliefs...I know from writing myself, There are time that i take from my life and beliefs, but more often than not i take from what i see around me...I learn about it and think damn that might just make and interesting fubar for the people i write about...so it maybe be a person experince and belief for him...maybe not... someone ask next Con. Lady Ravven ICQ: Soulcatcher --part1_112.19d10530.2af4185a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit why should i take it that way...to me beliefs are mine, for my reasons....i don't know that i have words to even try to say why...nor do i feel the need to. but even being Pagan, I see the similarities in many religions. (and even though for the most part I am spiritual) I at times feel that there is no one there or just rather well..."grey" for lack of better wording(not enough coffee)about religion in general....(hence why I am Lady on AOL and Soulcatcher on ICQ..lol)....
as for a writers beliefs...I know from writing myself, There are time that i take from my life and beliefs, but more often than not i take from what i see around me...I learn about it and think damn that might just make and interesting fubar for the people i write about...so it maybe be a person experince and belief for him...maybe not...
someone ask next Con.

Lady Ravven
ICQ: Soulcatcher --part1_112.19d10530.2af4185a_boundary-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kisc Kempson" Subject: RE: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) Date: 31 Oct 2002 23:48:51 -0700 Hey, can't we all just get along? I think it is time to let this thread die... we all agree that Cook is great. We don't agree about much else. I wish the guy that started this would respond to the questions I asked, him explaining a little more about what he meant with regards to Cook. Derrill > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Primalchrome > Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 10:40 AM > To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu > Mythology) > > > Sounds like a double standard to me, Igor. > > As far as I know, religious belief or lack thereof has never been a > determining factor in the overall intelligence or strength of a person. > Spouting ill-conceived opinion for no other reason than to insult a fair > percentage of the world population does, however, speak volumes about the > person's stability and maturity. This is just as true for > someone like Pat > Buchanan, the Pope, or Axemaster, the AOL user. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Igor Filippov" > To: > Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 11:15 AM > Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu > Mythology) > > > > > > In case you still reading this list... > > I don't care about repuclicans or democrats alike, I'm Russian citizen, > > we have a whole bunch of our own parties there (not that they're all > > that different). But what do you call "bashing" ? Don't you see a > > difference between statements "I think religion is for the weak" > > (I think candies are for the kids, but it doesn't mean adults > can't enjoy > > them too...) and "You're an idiot" ? > > > > Igor > > > > > > > > On Fri, 1 Nov 2002, Chris Holko wrote: > > > > > > > > > He wasn't actually calling anyone "weak", he merely commented on > > > > what he considers to be the role of religion in society. > > > > I think your calling people idiots is quite out of line. > > > > Please try to express your thoughts in a more appropriate manner. > > > > And the jib about democrats has no place on this list (or anywhere > > > > in the mature society). > > > > > > (lurker here) > > > > > > Oh I get it, as long as you bash religious folks you are okay, don't > touch > > > the democrats. > > > > > > Sheesh.. time to unsubscribe to this list. > > > > > > > > > > ======================================================================= > > > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > > > visit . > > > > > > > > > ======================================================================= > > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > > visit . > > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Axemaster2001@aol.com Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) Date: 01 Nov 2002 13:01:34 EST --part1_c1.2998cbf1.2af41b7e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> Sounds like a double standard to me, Igor. As far as I know, religious belief or lack thereof has never been a determining factor in the overall intelligence or strength of a person. Spouting ill-conceived opinion for no other reason than to insult a fair percentage of the world population does, however, speak volumes about the person's stability and maturity.=A0 This is just as true for someone like Pa= t Buchanan, the Pope, or Axemaster, the AOL user. << "ill-conceived opinion" - "insult a fair percentage of the world population" Why is my opinon ill-conceived. It is my opinion. I never once told Derril=20 his opinion was wrong, he stated his, quoted below, (in the off-topic post=20 that started all this).=20 Why is this a double standard? Or are you referring to the person who=20 attacked me and claimed I must also be a democrat, and then someone said "oh= =20 dont make this about politics too, im gonna unsubscribe"?=20 I dont care who you worship, how you worship or what you worship. What=20 worries me though is that some of you who do worship something are so=20 insulted, so threatened, so perturbed by those who have a differing opinion. To say my "stability and maturity" also revolve around my adherence to your=20 beliefs speaks volumes to me.=20 I joined this list because it was about Glen Cooks books and novels. Most of= =20 these books are fantasy and science fiction based. In the fantasy novels=20 alternate gods, demi-gods, mythological religons and more are everyday=20 events. Someone brought up the close similarities of the Books of South=20 religious structure and how close it tied into the real world Hindu and=20 South-East Asian religons. From that someone else stated:=20 <> - from Derrills email Which lead to my email. I had thought I was on a list of like minded Cook fans, and in my (normal)=20 experience fantasy and sci-fi fans are a little more open minded. I guess I was wrong. Derrils full post: >>> I'm not sure what you're asking. You see, as a man with religious convictions, I have a difficult time answering other than: any attempt to rationalize the human reliance on religion is misguided. There is a God. We must learn to rely on Him. There are a lot of people who bury themselves (or are buried by others) in rhetoric and zeal, and pull their convictions so far from anything to do with today's reality. There are a ton of people who are waiting to take advantage of whoever they can... some people are too trusting, too blind of faith. I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, aka the Mormons. I very strongly believe that what I'm taught is as correct as it gets, on Earth. However, I've been overheard to say, from time to time, "I would enjoy church a lot more if it wasn't for all the damn Mormons." Some people go to church for the wrong reason; some people go to church for the right reasons, but don't live their convictions in any meaningful way. Some people -- me, for instance -- are closet misanthropes and couldn't be pleased even if you put a cherry on top. (Most of us, of course, have every one of these flaws in greater or lesser degrees. People often get categorized by what you see them doing when you're in a ba mood.) All of these (and many other) sorts of things lead to people who don't believe in a deity at all. If, for extreme example, Father Clemente raped you when you were a teenager, then anything he says he believes must be absolute crap. Folks who don't believe in deity at all would be the folks who would need to rationalize humanity's reliance on religion. Folks who believe in deity would answer similarly to me: Well, He's there, isn't He? What's to rationalize? Humanity is drawn by an inbuilt tendency to search for the Creator. A very polite "duh" would seem the best answer here :) So... Uhm... can you clarify a little bit what you are asking? I rather suspect that my answer has nothing to do with the question you asked, as opposed to the question I read. Derrill --part1_c1.2998cbf1.2af41b7e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

>>
Sounds like a double standard to me, Igor.

As far as I know, religious belief or lack thereof has never been a
determining factor in the overall intelligence or strength of a person.
Spouting ill-conceived opinion for no other reason than to insult a fair
percentage of the world population does, however, speak volumes about the person's stability and maturity.=A0 This is just as true for someone like Pa= t
Buchanan, the Pope, or Axemaster, the AOL user.
<<

"ill-conceived opinion" - "insult a fair percentage of the world population"=

Why is my opinon ill-conceived. It is my opinion. I never once told Derril h= is opinion was wrong, he stated his, quoted below, (in the off-topic post th= at started all this).

Why is this a double standard? Or are you referring to the person who attack= ed me and claimed I must also be a democrat, and then someone said "oh dont=20= make this about politics too, im gonna unsubscribe"?

I dont care who you worship, how you worship or what you worship. What worri= es me though is that some of you who do worship something are so insulted, s= o threatened, so perturbed by those who have a differing opinion.

To say my "stability and maturity" also revolve around my adherence to your=20= beliefs speaks volumes to me.

I joined this list because it was about Glen Cooks books and novels. Most of= these books are fantasy and science fiction based. In the fantasy novels al= ternate gods, demi-gods, mythological religons and more are everyday events.= Someone brought up the close similarities of the Books of South religious s= tructure and how close it tied into the real world Hindu and South-East Asia= n religons. From that someone else stated:

<<Folks who don't believe in deity at all would be the folks who would= need to
rationalize humanity's reliance on religion.
>> - from Derrills email

Which lead to my email.

I had thought I was on a list of like minded Cook fans, and in my (normal) e= xperience fantasy and sci-fi fans are a little more open minded.

I guess I was wrong.


Derrils full post:
>>>

I'm not sure what you're asking.
You see, as a man with religious convictions, I have a difficult time
answering other than: any attempt to rationalize the human reliance on
religion is misguided. There is a God. We must learn to rely on Him.
There are a lot of people who bury themselves (or are buried by others) in rhetoric and zeal, and pull their convictions so far from anything to do
with today's reality.
There are a ton of people who are waiting to take advantage of whoever they<= BR> can... some people are too trusting, too blind of faith.
I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, aka the
Mormons. I very strongly believe that what I'm taught is as correct as it gets, on Earth. However, I've been overheard to say, from time to time, "I would enjoy church a lot more if it wasn't for all the damn Mormons." Some people go to church for the wrong reason; some people go to church for the right reasons, but don't live their convictions in any meaningful way. Some<= BR> people -- me, for instance -- are closet misanthropes and couldn't be
pleased even if you put a cherry on top.
(Most of us, of course, have every one of these flaws in greater or lesser degrees. People often get categorized by what you see them doing when you're=
in a ba mood.)
All of these (and many other) sorts of things lead to people who don't
believe in a deity at all. If, for extreme example, Father Clemente raped you when you were a teenager, then anything he says he believes must be
absolute crap.
Folks who don't believe in deity at all would be the folks who would need to=
rationalize humanity's reliance on religion.
Folks who believe in deity would answer similarly to me: Well, He's there, isn't He? What's to rationalize? Humanity is drawn by an inbuilt tendency to=
search for the Creator. A very polite "duh" would seem the best answer here<= BR> :)
So... Uhm... can you clarify a little bit what you are asking? I rather
suspect that my answer has nothing to do with the question you asked, as
opposed to the question I read.
Derrill



 --part1_c1.2998cbf1.2af41b7e_boundary-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kisc Kempson" Subject: RE: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) Date: 01 Nov 2002 00:14:26 -0700 >Axemaster said: >Why is my opinon ill-conceived. It is my opinion. I never once told Derril his opinion was wrong, he stated his, quoted below, (in the off-topic post that started all this). Hey, it wasn't /that/ off-topic ;) > ><rationalize humanity's reliance on religion. >>> - from Derrills email Does anyone disagree with this statement? I mean, seriously. I think that is completely accurate. If you're religious, that is a non-issue, right? If I'm wrong, I'm asking you to correct me here, please. > >Which lead to my email. > >I had thought I was on a list of like minded Cook fans, and in my (normal) experience fantasy and sci-fi fans are a little more open minded. > >I guess I was wrong. > No, you're right, by and large. It turns out there are a bunch of people in a bad mood on here too, however. You know, the funniest part abou this whole thread is that the AOL user is the rational one. Sure, his opinion might be considered a little inflammatory, but the AOL user is the rational one. Don't you see how silly that makes you look if you're not rational?! Derrill PS I am Kisc, and I am Derrill. Sometimes I forget which way I'm closing on a particular list. ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Igor Filippov Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) Date: 01 Nov 2002 13:20:20 -0500 (EST) Him saying "I think religion is for the weak" was expressing his opinion about _religion_ not the people who're practicing it. The other guy saying "you're an idiot" is clearly a personal attack, not an expression of opinion about abstract issue. Where is the double standard ? I think the list is no place for personal attacks, but I like reading and discussing different opinions about abstract philosophical issues. The distinction sometimes may seem obscure, but if one cares to read verbatim what is being said, it isn't that difficult to differentiate between the two. Sincerely, Igor On Fri, 1 Nov 2002, Primalchrome wrote: > Sounds like a double standard to me, Igor. > > As far as I know, religious belief or lack thereof has never been a > determining factor in the overall intelligence or strength of a person. > Spouting ill-conceived opinion for no other reason than to insult a fair > percentage of the world population does, however, speak volumes about the > person's stability and maturity. This is just as true for someone like Pat > Buchanan, the Pope, or Axemaster, the AOL user. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Igor Filippov" > To: > Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 11:15 AM > Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) > > > > > > In case you still reading this list... > > I don't care about repuclicans or democrats alike, I'm Russian citizen, > > we have a whole bunch of our own parties there (not that they're all > > that different). But what do you call "bashing" ? Don't you see a > > difference between statements "I think religion is for the weak" > > (I think candies are for the kids, but it doesn't mean adults can't enjoy > > them too...) and "You're an idiot" ? > > > > Igor > > > > > > > > On Fri, 1 Nov 2002, Chris Holko wrote: > > > > > > > > > He wasn't actually calling anyone "weak", he merely commented on > > > > what he considers to be the role of religion in society. > > > > I think your calling people idiots is quite out of line. > > > > Please try to express your thoughts in a more appropriate manner. > > > > And the jib about democrats has no place on this list (or anywhere > > > > in the mature society). > > > > > > (lurker here) > > > > > > Oh I get it, as long as you bash religious folks you are okay, don't > touch > > > the democrats. > > > > > > Sheesh.. time to unsubscribe to this list. > > > > > > > > > ======================================================================= > > > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > > > visit . > > > > > > > > > ======================================================================= > > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > > visit . > > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Axemaster2001@aol.com Subject: (glencook-fans) Back on Cook Date: 01 Nov 2002 13:24:20 EST --part1_10f.19713162.2af420d4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit back to the reason for the list.... *spoiler* anyone heard anything about a new Black Company book? The last one left everything at a point and time where either new adventures could be chronicled, orrrr we get to see from the eyes of Croaker the periods in history that so captivated him. Imagine new Black Company books about previous incarnations of the company....or even the birth of the Domination...that is what id vote for, a book all about how the Dominator came to power, the 10 who were taken and their early lives, etc etc Axemaster 61 Cleric Lilaxe 58 Warrior --part1_10f.19713162.2af420d4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit back to the reason for the list....

*spoiler*

anyone heard anything about a new Black Company book? The last one left everything at a point and time where either new adventures could be chronicled, orrrr we get to see from the eyes of Croaker the periods in history that so captivated him.

Imagine new Black Company books about previous incarnations of the company....or even the birth of the Domination...that is what id vote for, a book all about how the Dominator came to power, the 10 who were taken and their early lives, etc etc



Axemaster  61 Cleric
Lilaxe 58 Warrior
   
--part1_10f.19713162.2af420d4_boundary-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Murphy Subject: (glencook-fans) Mouse N children Date: 01 Nov 2002 13:26:27 -0800 Spoiler for Starfishers/Shadowline . . . .. . . . . . . . Hi all Just rereading the series (guess I do a lot of that) and in Starfishers Mouse has a problem where a girl he has been with tells him shes pregnant. And he talks about how he doesn't know what to do, he has not been in this situation before. But doesn't he have a kid with Pollyana from Shadowline? Or (this could be neat) the kid from Pollyana is his dads so decides to play the Father since Gneaus is dead. Anyone? J Murphy ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Murphy Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Back on Cook Date: 01 Nov 2002 13:29:27 -0800 Someone who taled to Cook recently said that Glen plans moving forword with the Company. I am thinking this could be some stuff in one or more of the other worlds off the plain. Maybe even raiding back and forth or something. But I think it was also mentioned that he has another series to finish out forst, so it could be a while before the Black Co comes back on stage. J Murphy Axemaster2001@aol.com wrote: > back to the reason for the list.... > > *spoiler* > > anyone heard anything about a new Black Company book? The last one > left everything at a point and time where either new adventures could > be chronicled, orrrr we get to see from the eyes of Croaker the > periods in history that so captivated him. > > Imagine new Black Company books about previous incarnations of the > company....or even the birth of the Domination...that is what id vote > for, a book all about how the Dominator came to power, the 10 who were > taken and their early lives, etc etc > > > > Axemaster 61 Cleric > Lilaxe 58 Warrior > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Crust Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Mouse N children Date: 01 Nov 2002 13:35:31 -0500 (EST) Hi All -spoiler space... From what I remember of Shadowline, Mouse does not have any children. Since he had just been recalled from the academy, and from what I remember of the time frame, I don't think there would I have been time. I will have to re-read it to see if it was his fathers child. On a related note to the mythologies threads, was anyone else fascinated by the way Shadowline retold Ragnarok in a science fiction setting? Jim C. ----- Begin Included Message ----- From owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com Fri Nov 1 13:27:25 2002 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Lines: 28 Spoiler for Starfishers/Shadowline . . . .. . . . . . . . Hi all Just rereading the series (guess I do a lot of that) and in Starfishers Mouse has a problem where a girl he has been with tells him shes pregnant. And he talks about how he doesn't know what to do, he has not been in this situation before. But doesn't he have a kid with Pollyana from Shadowline? Or (this could be neat) the kid from Pollyana is his dads so decides to play the Father since Gneaus is dead. Anyone? J Murphy ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ----- End Included Message ----- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Primalchrome" Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) Date: 01 Nov 2002 12:37:02 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C281A3.60D24300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable *sigh* Allow me to spell it out to you. Why is my opinon ill-conceived. - It is no more ill conceived than the = following opinions : Germans are all anti-semites. Black people are lazy. White males are evil money grubbers. Muslims are all militant extremists. Meaning that they're ALL poorly thought out and highly insulting to the = target. Why is this a double standard? - Pay attention to the thread. I was = speaking ot Igor in that saying that slurring an entire political party, = calling a person an idiot, and insulting any adherent to religion are = all much in the same. To condemn one while condoning another is = exercising a double standard. What worries me though is that some of you who do worship something are = so insulted, so threatened, so perturbed by those who have a differing = opinion. - Once again, pay attention to the thread. No one is perturbed = that you have a differing opinion. People are pissed because you = insulted them. =20 To say my "stability and maturity" also revolve around my adherence to = your beliefs speaks volumes to me. - For the third time, pay attention. = I never insinuated anything of the sort. I don't really care about = people's beliefs so long as they do not threaten the rights of others. = My reference to your lack of stability and maturity had to do with your = spouting off a blatant insult at a sizeable percentage of this list. = Somehow I think a baptist preacher would be recieved in a similar = fashion if he attended temple and shouted out some blind dogma about = Jews going to hell. Folks who don't believe in deity at all would be the folks who would = need to rationalize humanity's reliance on religion. - If this statement = is what got your panties in a wad, I really don't know what to say. If = you read it, it's a logical statement with little opinion. It's true, = the only people that would be interested in exploring humanities = obsession with deities would be those that do not adhere to a particular = religious belief. Those that have a religious belief system have = already come to terms with humanity's relationship with religion. I had thought I was on a list of like minded Cook fans, and in my = (normal) experience fantasy and sci-fi fans are a little more open = minded. I guess I was wrong. - No, you were correct. Fantasy and = SciFi fans are generally fairly openminded....but if a bull rampages in = a china shop, you shoot the bull, not admire the shards on the ground. = Similarly, if you walk into a conversation and lead off with,"Well, = you're all weak minded sheep, but I'll still favor you with my = presence..." you're really not going to be making any headway.=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Axemaster2001@aol.com=20 To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 12:01 PM Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu = Mythology) >> Sounds like a double standard to me, Igor. As far as I know, religious belief or lack thereof has never been a determining factor in the overall intelligence or strength of a = person. Spouting ill-conceived opinion for no other reason than to insult a = fair percentage of the world population does, however, speak volumes about = the person's stability and maturity. This is just as true for someone = like Pat Buchanan, the Pope, or Axemaster, the AOL user. << "ill-conceived opinion" - "insult a fair percentage of the world = population" Why is my opinon ill-conceived. It is my opinion. I never once told = Derril his opinion was wrong, he stated his, quoted below, (in the = off-topic post that started all this).=20 Why is this a double standard? Or are you referring to the person who = attacked me and claimed I must also be a democrat, and then someone said = "oh dont make this about politics too, im gonna unsubscribe"?=20 I dont care who you worship, how you worship or what you worship. What = worries me though is that some of you who do worship something are so = insulted, so threatened, so perturbed by those who have a differing = opinion. To say my "stability and maturity" also revolve around my adherence to = your beliefs speaks volumes to me.=20 I joined this list because it was about Glen Cooks books and novels. = Most of these books are fantasy and science fiction based. In the = fantasy novels alternate gods, demi-gods, mythological religons and more = are everyday events. Someone brought up the close similarities of the = Books of South religious structure and how close it tied into the real = world Hindu and South-East Asian religons. From that someone else = stated:=20 <> - from Derrills email Which lead to my email. I had thought I was on a list of like minded Cook fans, and in my = (normal) experience fantasy and sci-fi fans are a little more open = minded. I guess I was wrong. Derrils full post: >>> I'm not sure what you're asking. You see, as a man with religious convictions, I have a difficult time answering other than: any attempt to rationalize the human reliance on religion is misguided. There is a God. We must learn to rely on Him. There are a lot of people who bury themselves (or are buried by = others) in rhetoric and zeal, and pull their convictions so far from anything to = do with today's reality. There are a ton of people who are waiting to take advantage of whoever = they can... some people are too trusting, too blind of faith. I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, aka = the Mormons. I very strongly believe that what I'm taught is as correct as = it gets, on Earth. However, I've been overheard to say, from time to = time, "I would enjoy church a lot more if it wasn't for all the damn Mormons." = Some people go to church for the wrong reason; some people go to church for = the right reasons, but don't live their convictions in any meaningful way. = Some people -- me, for instance -- are closet misanthropes and couldn't be pleased even if you put a cherry on top. (Most of us, of course, have every one of these flaws in greater or = lesser degrees. People often get categorized by what you see them doing when = you're in a ba mood.) All of these (and many other) sorts of things lead to people who don't believe in a deity at all. If, for extreme example, Father Clemente = raped you when you were a teenager, then anything he says he believes must = be absolute crap. Folks who don't believe in deity at all would be the folks who would = need to rationalize humanity's reliance on religion. Folks who believe in deity would answer similarly to me: Well, He's = there, isn't He? What's to rationalize? Humanity is drawn by an inbuilt = tendency to search for the Creator. A very polite "duh" would seem the best answer = here :) So... Uhm... can you clarify a little bit what you are asking? I = rather suspect that my answer has nothing to do with the question you asked, = as opposed to the question I read. Derrill ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C281A3.60D24300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
*sigh*  Allow me to spell it out = to=20 you.
 
Why is my opinon=20 ill-conceived. -  It is no more ill conceived than the = following=20 opinions :
        = Germans are=20 all anti-semites.
        Black=20 people are lazy.
        = White males=20 are evil money grubbers.
        = Muslims are=20 all militant extremists.
Meaning that they're ALL poorly thought = out and=20 highly insulting to the target.
Why is this a = double=20 standard? -  Pay attention to the thread.  I was = speaking ot=20 Igor in that saying that slurring an entire political party, calling a = person an=20 idiot, and insulting any adherent to religion are all much in the = same.  To=20 condemn one while condoning another is exercising a double=20 standard.
What worries me = though is that=20 some of you who do worship something are so insulted, so threatened, so=20 perturbed by those who have a differing opinion. - Once again, = pay=20 attention to the thread.  No one is perturbed that you have a = differing=20 opinion.  People are pissed because you insulted them.  =
To say my = "stability and=20 maturity" also revolve around my adherence to your beliefs speaks = volumes to=20 me. -  For the third time, pay attention.  I never = insinuated=20 anything of the sort.  I don't really care about people's beliefs = so long=20 as they do not threaten the rights of others.  My reference to your = lack of=20 stability and maturity had to do with your spouting off a blatant insult = at a=20 sizeable percentage of this list.  Somehow I think a baptist = preacher would=20 be recieved in a similar fashion if he attended temple and shouted out = some=20 blind dogma about Jews going to hell.
Folks who don't = believe in=20 deity at all would be the folks who would need to rationalize humanity's = reliance on religion. - If this statement is what got your = panties in a=20 wad, I really don't know what to say.  If you read it, it's a = logical=20 statement with little opinion.  It's true, the only people that = would be=20 interested in exploring humanities obsession with deities would be those = that do=20 not adhere to a particular religious belief.  Those that have a = religious=20 belief system have already come to terms with humanity's relationship = with=20 religion.
I had thought I = was on a list=20 of like minded Cook fans, and in my (normal) experience fantasy and = sci-fi fans=20 are a little more open minded.  I guess I was wrong.  - = No, you=20 were correct.  Fantasy and SciFi fans are generally fairly=20 openminded....but if a bull rampages in a china shop, you shoot the = bull, not=20 admire the shards on the ground.  Similarly, if you walk into a=20 conversation and lead off with,"Well, you're all weak minded sheep, = but I'll still favor you with my presence..." you're really = not going=20 to be making any headway. 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Axemaster2001@aol.com
To: glencook-fans@lists.xmis= sion.com=20
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 = 12:01=20 PM
Subject: Re: Reliance on = Religion (was=20 RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology)



>>
Sounds like a double standard = to me,=20 Igor.

As far as I know, religious belief or lack thereof has = never been=20 a
determining factor in the overall intelligence or strength of a=20 person.
Spouting ill-conceived opinion for no other reason than to = insult a=20 fair
percentage of the world population does, however, speak = volumes about=20 the
person's stability and maturity.  This is just as true for = someone=20 like Pat
Buchanan, the Pope, or Axemaster, the AOL=20 user.
<<

"ill-conceived opinion" - "insult a fair = percentage=20 of the world population"

Why is my opinon ill-conceived. It is = my=20 opinion. I never once told Derril his opinion was wrong, he stated = his, quoted=20 below, (in the off-topic post that started all this).

Why is = this a=20 double standard? Or are you referring to the person who attacked me = and=20 claimed I must also be a democrat, and then someone said "oh dont make = this=20 about politics too, im gonna unsubscribe"?

I dont care who you = worship, how you worship or what you worship. What worries me though = is that=20 some of you who do worship something are so insulted, so threatened, = so=20 perturbed by those who have a differing opinion.

To say my = "stability=20 and maturity" also revolve around my adherence to your beliefs speaks = volumes=20 to me.

I joined this list because it was about Glen Cooks = books and=20 novels. Most of these books are fantasy and science fiction based. In = the=20 fantasy novels alternate gods, demi-gods, mythological religons and = more are=20 everyday events. Someone brought up the close similarities of the = Books of=20 South religious structure and how close it tied into the real world = Hindu and=20 South-East Asian religons. From that someone else stated:=20

<<Folks who don't believe in deity at all would be the = folks who=20 would need to
rationalize humanity's reliance on = religion.
>> -=20 from Derrills email

Which lead to my email.

I had = thought I was=20 on a list of like minded Cook fans, and in my (normal) experience = fantasy and=20 sci-fi fans are a little more open minded.

I guess I was=20 wrong.


Derrils full post:
>>>

I'm not = sure what=20 you're asking.
You see, as a man with religious convictions, I have = a=20 difficult time
answering other than: any attempt to rationalize the = human=20 reliance on
religion is misguided. There is a God. We must learn to = rely on=20 Him.
There are a lot of people who bury themselves (or are buried = by=20 others) in
rhetoric and zeal, and pull their convictions so far = from=20 anything to do
with today's reality.
There are a ton of people = who are=20 waiting to take advantage of whoever they
can... some people are = too=20 trusting, too blind of faith.
I'm a member of the Church of Jesus = Christ of=20 Latter Day Saints, aka the
Mormons. I very strongly believe that = what I'm=20 taught is as correct as it
gets, on Earth. However, I've been = overheard to=20 say, from time to time, "I
would enjoy church a lot more if it = wasn't for=20 all the damn Mormons." Some
people go to church for the wrong = reason; some=20 people go to church for the
right reasons, but don't live their = convictions=20 in any meaningful way. Some
people -- me, for instance -- are = closet=20 misanthropes and couldn't be
pleased even if you put a cherry on=20 top.
(Most of us, of course, have every one of these flaws in = greater or=20 lesser
degrees. People often get categorized by what you see them = doing=20 when you're
in a ba mood.)
All of these (and many other) sorts = of things=20 lead to people who don't
believe in a deity at all. If, for extreme = example, Father Clemente raped
you when you were a teenager, then = anything=20 he says he believes must be
absolute crap.
Folks who don't = believe in=20 deity at all would be the folks who would need to
rationalize = humanity's=20 reliance on religion.
Folks who believe in deity would answer = similarly to=20 me: Well, He's there,
isn't He? What's to rationalize? Humanity is = drawn by=20 an inbuilt tendency to
search for the Creator. A very polite "duh" = would=20 seem the best answer here
:)
So... Uhm... can you clarify a = little bit=20 what you are asking? I rather
suspect that my answer has nothing to = do with=20 the question you asked, as
opposed to the question I=20 = read.
Derrill



= ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C281A3.60D24300-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kisc Kempson" Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Back on Cook Date: 01 Nov 2002 00:36:16 -0700 Hey, any possibility of more stories is great. I mentioned before that I love Hammer's Slammers... most of those stories are about completely different people who all are part of a well organized and well financed mercenary company (later a planetary military), in the same vein. I love Croaker and the others, but I would so be willing to read stories without them set in the same universe, particularly if one had the anchor of the Black Company to keep it interesting. Kisc > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Joe Murphy > Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 2:29 PM > To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Back on Cook > > > Someone who taled to Cook recently said that Glen plans moving forword > with the Company. I am thinking this could be some stuff in one or more > of the other worlds off the plain. Maybe even raiding back and forth or > something. But I think it was also mentioned that he has another series > to finish out forst, so it could be a while before the Black Co comes > back on stage. > J Murphy > > Axemaster2001@aol.com wrote: > > > back to the reason for the list.... > > > > *spoiler* > > > > anyone heard anything about a new Black Company book? The last one > > left everything at a point and time where either new adventures could > > be chronicled, orrrr we get to see from the eyes of Croaker the > > periods in history that so captivated him. > > > > Imagine new Black Company books about previous incarnations of the > > company....or even the birth of the Domination...that is what id vote > > for, a book all about how the Dominator came to power, the 10 who were > > taken and their early lives, etc etc > > > > > > > > Axemaster 61 Cleric > > Lilaxe 58 Warrior > > > > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Axemaster2001@aol.com Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Back on Cook Date: 01 Nov 2002 13:59:02 EST --part1_1b9.8c41836.2af428f6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/1/02 1:30:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, bagaele@netzero.com writes: > so it could be a while before the Black Co comes > back on stage. > J Murphy > thanks J kinda like the 6 year wait for so between First Book of the South and the rest 8( Axemaster 61 Cleric Lilaxe 58 Warrior --part1_1b9.8c41836.2af428f6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/1/02 1:30:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, bagaele@netzero.com writes:

so it could be a while before the Black Co comes
back on stage.
J Murphy


thanks J

kinda like the 6 year wait for so between First Book of the South and the rest 8(


Axemaster  61 Cleric
Lilaxe 58 Warrior
   
--part1_1b9.8c41836.2af428f6_boundary-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Primalchrome" Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Back on Cook Date: 01 Nov 2002 13:11:02 -0600 Since he introduced Case in the The White Rose, I've always been interested in seeing a book (or short story) with his perspective on some of the Lady's campaigns.... Novels revolving around what were once secondary or background characters instead of hashing on the Company or known entities. Or maybe a throw down on what Old Man Fish (from the Silver Spike) went through in his younger days.... Is it just me, or does Old Man Fish remind anyone else of an over-the-hill Garrett? BTW, I hear you on Drake. The Slammers and Black Company dominate the top shelf of my bookcase. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 1:36 AM > Hey, any possibility of more stories is great. > > I mentioned before that I love Hammer's Slammers... most of those stories > are about completely different people who all are part of a well organized > and well financed mercenary company (later a planetary military), in the > same vein. > > I love Croaker and the others, but I would so be willing to read stories > without them set in the same universe, particularly if one had the anchor of > the Black Company to keep it interesting. > > Kisc > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > > [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Joe Murphy > > Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 2:29 PM > > To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Back on Cook > > > > > > Someone who taled to Cook recently said that Glen plans moving forword > > with the Company. I am thinking this could be some stuff in one or more > > of the other worlds off the plain. Maybe even raiding back and forth or > > something. But I think it was also mentioned that he has another series > > to finish out forst, so it could be a while before the Black Co comes > > back on stage. > > J Murphy > > > > Axemaster2001@aol.com wrote: > > > > > back to the reason for the list.... > > > > > > *spoiler* > > > > > > anyone heard anything about a new Black Company book? The last one > > > left everything at a point and time where either new adventures could > > > be chronicled, orrrr we get to see from the eyes of Croaker the > > > periods in history that so captivated him. > > > > > > Imagine new Black Company books about previous incarnations of the > > > company....or even the birth of the Domination...that is what id vote > > > for, a book all about how the Dominator came to power, the 10 who were > > > taken and their early lives, etc etc > > > > > > > > > > > > Axemaster 61 Cleric > > > Lilaxe 58 Warrior > > > > > > > > > ======================================================================= > > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > > visit . > > > > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Axemaster2001@aol.com Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) Date: 01 Nov 2002 14:23:58 EST --part1_f9.24a70040.2af42ece_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 11/1/02 1:38:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,=20 primalchrome@bellsouth.net writes: >=20 > Why is my opinon ill-conceived. - It is no more ill conceived than the=20 > following opinions : > Germans are all anti-semites. > Black people are lazy. > White males are evil money grubbers. > Muslims are all militant extremists. > Meaning that they're ALL poorly thought out and highly insulting to the=20 > target. >=20 *sigh* So, because someone has a divering opinion of religion, they get lumped into= =20 the masses of ignorant racists? That statement is as bad as assuming I am a=20 democrat just from stating my opinion. Folks who don't believe in deity at all would be the folks who would need to= =20 rationalize humanity's reliance on religion. - If this statement is what got= =20 your panties in a wad, I really don't know what to say.=A0 Mmm, have you read every post on this thread, or just picked selective parts= ?=20 My panties are not in a wad at all. I replied to this statement. This=20 statement says that people who dont believe in a diety/god, rationlize=20 humanitys reliance on religion. I was merely commenting on this statement,=20 and saying that it matches my own personal beliefs. I didnt attack anyone=20 personally, if you take it personal, or anyone takes it personal you/they ar= e=20 being too sensitive.=20 Axemaster= 61 Cleric Lilaxe 58 Warrior =20 --part1_f9.24a70040.2af42ece_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 11/1/02 1:38:23 PM Eastern Standard= Time, primalchrome@bellsouth.net writes:


Why is my opinon ill-conceiv= ed. -  It is no more=20= ill conceived than the following opinions :
       Germans are all anti-semites.
        Black people are lazy.
       White males are evil money grubbers.        Muslims are all militant extremists. Meaning that they're ALL poorly thought out and highly insulting to the tar= get.


*sigh*

So, because someone has a divering opinion of religion, they get lumped into= the masses of ignorant racists? That statement is as bad as assuming I am a= democrat just from stating my opinion.


Folks who don't believe in d= eity at all would be the folks who would need to rationalize humanity's reli= ance on religion. - If this=20= statement is what got your panties in a wad, I really don't know what to say= .=A0


Mmm, have you read every post on this thread, or just picked selective parts= ? My panties are not in a wad at all. I replied to this statement. This stat= ement says that people who dont believe in a diety/god, rationlize humanitys= reliance on religion. I was merely commenting on this statement, and saying= that it matches my own personal beliefs. I didnt attack anyone personally,=20= if you take it personal, or anyone takes it personal you/they are being too=20= sensitive.




Axemaster=   61 Cleric
Lilaxe 58 Warrior
   
--part1_f9.24a70040.2af42ece_boundary-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Axemaster2001@aol.com Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) Date: 01 Nov 2002 14:31:10 EST --part1_147.1bc8e0a.2af4307e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/1/02 1:38:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, primalchrome@bellsouth.net writes: > Similarly, if you walk into a conversation and lead off with,"Well, you're > all weak minded sheep, but I'll still favor you with my presence..." you're > really not going to be making any headway. > > Man, this statement wraps it all up. I never said anything like that, I never implied anything like that. You are putting words in my mouth and also reading whatever you want to from my statements. Axemaster 61 Cleric Lilaxe 58 Warrior --part1_147.1bc8e0a.2af4307e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/1/02 1:38:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, primalchrome@bellsouth.net writes:

Similarly, if you walk into a conversation and lead off with,"Well, you're all weak minded sheep, but I'll still favor you with my presence..." you're really not going to be making any headway.
 


Man, this statement wraps it all up. I never said anything like that, I never implied anything like that. You are putting words in my mouth and also reading whatever you want to from my statements.







Axemaster  61 Cleric
Lilaxe 58 Warrior
   
--part1_147.1bc8e0a.2af4307e_boundary-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: schew@interzone.com (Steve Chew) Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) New BC books... Date: 01 Nov 2002 14:36:16 -0500 (EST) > >anyone heard anything about a new Black Company book? The last one left >everything at a point and time where either new adventures could be >chronicled, orrrr we get to see from the eyes of Croaker the periods in >history that so captivated him. > >Imagine new Black Company books about previous incarnations of the >company....or even the birth of the Domination...that is what id vote for, a >book all about how the Dominator came to power, the 10 who were taken and >their early lives, etc etc > I'd certainly like to see more Black Company books. Ones about the past would be cool, but revealing the story of the Dominator could be like revealing the man behind the curtain. The mystery is reduced -- it will be hard to match or exceed our expectations of that era. I think I'd prefer to see new adventures. On a different note, one of the things that I didn't like that well from the Glittering Stone books was how much Cook took advantage of Smoke and then Murgen to float around, viewing what's happening all over the world. It was a convenient tool for Sleepy and the rest of the BC of course, but it was almost *too* convenient in my opinion. I think it reduced tension since the BC could almost always anticipate what was going to happen next. I prefered it when they had to work out what to do without foreknowledge of the number of troops, their locations, etc. If I remember correctly, Cook got away from this technique in the last book or two and that may be part of why I preferred those books to the earlier Glittering Stone books. Did anyone else have that problem with the GS books? Steve ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Axemaster2001@aol.com Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Back on Cook Date: 01 Nov 2002 14:38:44 EST --part1_d2.207410d0.2af43244_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/1/02 2:12:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, primalchrome@bellsouth.net writes: > Since he introduced Case in the The White Rose, I've always been interested > in seeing a book (or short story) with his perspective on some of the > Lady's > campaigns.... Novels revolving around what were once secondary or > background characters instead of hashing on the Company or known entities. > > Or maybe a throw down on what Old Man Fish (from the Silver Spike) went > through in his younger days.... Is it just me, or does Old Man Fish remind > anyone else of an over-the-hill Garrett? > > BTW, I hear you on Drake. The Slammers and Black Company dominate the top > shelf of my bookcase. > > the Silver Spike covered the release of the Lady and the 10, and a book detailing her take over control of the area and the birth of her new Empire would be great as well...maybe even a trilogy were we see the start of the Domination, the fall and then the 3rd book is the release and rebirth of the Lady Axemaster 61 Cleric Lilaxe 58 Warrior --part1_d2.207410d0.2af43244_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/1/02 2:12:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, primalchrome@bellsouth.net writes:

Since he introduced Case in the The White Rose, I've always been interested
in seeing a book (or short story) with his perspective on some of the Lady's
campaigns....  Novels revolving around what were once secondary or
background characters instead of hashing on the Company or known entities.

Or maybe a throw down on what Old Man Fish (from the Silver Spike) went
through in his younger days....  Is it just me, or does Old Man Fish remind
anyone else of an over-the-hill Garrett?

BTW, I hear you on Drake.  The Slammers and Black Company dominate the top
shelf of my bookcase.



the Silver Spike covered the release of the Lady and the 10, and a book detailing her take over control of the area and the birth of her new Empire would be great as well...maybe even a trilogy were we see the start of the Domination, the fall and then the 3rd book is the release and rebirth of the Lady


Axemaster  61 Cleric
Lilaxe 58 Warrior
   
--part1_d2.207410d0.2af43244_boundary-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Axemaster2001@aol.com Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) New BC books... Date: 01 Nov 2002 14:40:20 EST --part1_126.1993b83d.2af432a4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/1/02 2:37:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, schew@interzone.com writes: > On a different note, one of the things that I didn't like that > well from the Glittering Stone books was how much Cook took advantage of > Smoke and then Murgen to float around, viewing what's happening all over > the world. It was a convenient tool for Sleepy and the rest of the BC > of course, but it was almost *too* convenient in my opinion. I think > it reduced tension since the BC could almost always anticipate what was > going to happen next. I prefered it when they had to work out what to > do without foreknowledge of the number of troops, their locations, etc. > i always felt this was more a replacement of the wizards the company had lost...Tom Tom, Silent etc who had been stated as being the ones who had kept the Company one step ahead of the enemy many times... Axemaster 61 Cleric Lilaxe 58 Warrior --part1_126.1993b83d.2af432a4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/1/02 2:37:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, schew@interzone.com writes:

On a different note, one of the things that I didn't like that
well from the Glittering Stone books was how much Cook took advantage of
Smoke and then Murgen to float around, viewing what's happening all over
the world.  It was a convenient tool for Sleepy and the rest of the BC
of course, but it was almost *too* convenient in my opinion.  I think
it reduced tension since the BC could almost always anticipate what was
going to happen next.  I prefered it when they had to work out what to
do without foreknowledge of the number of troops, their locations, etc.


i always felt this was more a replacement of the wizards the company had lost...Tom Tom, Silent etc who had been stated as being the ones who had kept the Company one step ahead of the enemy many times...


Axemaster  61 Cleric
Lilaxe 58 Warrior
   
--part1_126.1993b83d.2af432a4_boundary-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kisc Kempson" Subject: RE: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) Date: 01 Nov 2002 01:39:44 -0700 Axemaster, PLEASE let it go. This arguement will not be resolved outside of the Thunderdome. Just let it die :) Kisc -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Axemaster2001@aol.com Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 12:31 PM In a message dated 11/1/02 1:38:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, primalchrome@bellsouth.net writes: Similarly, if you walk into a conversation and lead off with,"Well, you're all weak minded sheep, but I'll still favor you with my presence..." you're really not going to be making any headway. Man, this statement wraps it all up. I never said anything like that, I never implied anything like that. You are putting words in my mouth and also reading whatever you want to from my statements. Axemaster 61 Cleric Lilaxe 58 Warrior ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kisc Kempson" Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) New BC books... Date: 01 Nov 2002 01:41:45 -0700 I didn't like it in general, but I kind of got the impression that Cook wanted to give them better intel, and found a way to do with magic what they didn't have the technology to do. It didn't seem THAT bad, but I agree that it rankled just a bit. Kisc > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Steve Chew > Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 12:36 PM > To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) New BC books... > > > > > >anyone heard anything about a new Black Company book? The last one left > >everything at a point and time where either new adventures could be > >chronicled, orrrr we get to see from the eyes of Croaker the periods in > >history that so captivated him. > > > >Imagine new Black Company books about previous incarnations of the > >company....or even the birth of the Domination...that is what id > vote for, a > >book all about how the Dominator came to power, the 10 who were > taken and > >their early lives, etc etc > > > > I'd certainly like to see more Black Company books. Ones about > the past would be cool, but revealing the story of the Dominator could > be like revealing the man behind the curtain. The mystery is reduced -- > it will be hard to match or exceed our expectations of that era. I think > I'd prefer to see new adventures. > On a different note, one of the things that I didn't like that > well from the Glittering Stone books was how much Cook took advantage of > Smoke and then Murgen to float around, viewing what's happening all over > the world. It was a convenient tool for Sleepy and the rest of the BC > of course, but it was almost *too* convenient in my opinion. I think > it reduced tension since the BC could almost always anticipate what was > going to happen next. I prefered it when they had to work out what to > do without foreknowledge of the number of troops, their locations, etc. > If I remember correctly, Cook got away from this technique in > the last book or two and that may be part of why I preferred those books > to the earlier Glittering Stone books. Did anyone else have that problem > with the GS books? > > Steve > > > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Primalchrome" Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) Date: 01 Nov 2002 13:54:35 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C281AE.366F6D80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So, because someone has a divering opinion of religion, they get lumped = into the masses of ignorant racists? - Yes, actually. The basis for = comparison is valid. Your comment was a grossly oversimplified blanket = statement insulting anyone with religious ties or beliefs. How is this = any different than a farmboy making an equally flawed observation about = "russia iz fer dem commies an stoopid folk". They're both insulting = generalized assumptions about people that have little or no basis in the = reality. Mmm, have you read every post on this thread, or just picked selective = parts? - The quote I was using was initially your reference. I was = simply following your lead, sir. "I never said anything like that, I never implied anything like that." = - Crikey! Stop with the whining for one minute and read what was = typed. I didn't claim that you made that statement, I was illustrating = that if you walk into a crowd and lead off with an insult, you shouldn't = expect to make any headway. For the record your quote was,"ive always = believed religion was for the weak." =20 You insulted members of the list and now you're howling like a starving = kit because you reaped the whirlwind. I'm glad you have your beliefs = and are able to develop personal opinions.... Hell, I wish everyone = were a little more independently minded. I don't even take your opinion = as a personal insult...in that it doesn't really apply to me. What = pisses me off is how you seem to feel you have a right to spout off with = an insult and it not have any reprocussions. Just take your medicine or = hunker down for a couple of days and let it blow over. Human memory is = short, particularly on mailing lists. That being said, this thread is an irritating waste of time, so I'm = nixing any participation in it. Enjoyed it.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C281AE.366F6D80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
So, because = someone has a=20 divering opinion of religion, they get lumped into the masses of = ignorant=20 racists?  -  Yes, actually.  The basis for = comparison is=20 valid.  Your comment was a grossly oversimplified blanket statement = insulting anyone with religious ties or beliefs.  How is this any = different=20 than a farmboy making an equally flawed observation about "russia iz fer = dem=20 commies an stoopid folk".  They're both insulting generalized = assumptions=20 about people that have little or no basis in the reality.
 
Mmm, have you = read every post=20 on this thread, or just picked selective parts?  -  The = quote I=20 was using was initially your reference.  I was simply following = your lead,=20 sir.
 
"I never said = anything like=20 that, I never implied anything like that."  -  = Crikey!  Stop with the whining for one minute = and read=20 what was typed.  I didn't claim that you made that statement, I was = illustrating that if you walk into a crowd and lead off with an insult, = you=20 shouldn't expect to make any headway.  For the record your quote = was,"ive=20 always believed religion was for the weak." 
 
You insulted members of the list and = now you're=20 howling like a starving kit because you reaped the whirlwind.  I'm = glad you=20 have your beliefs and are able to develop personal opinions....  = Hell, I=20 wish everyone were a little more independently minded.  I = don't=20 even take your opinion as a personal insult...in that it doesn't = really=20 apply to me.  What pisses me off is how you seem to feel you = have a=20 right to spout off with an insult and it not have any=20 reprocussions.  Just take your medicine or hunker = down for a=20 couple of days and let it blow over.  Human memory is short, = particularly=20 on mailing lists.
 
That being said, this thread is an = irritating waste=20 of time, so I'm nixing any participation in it.  Enjoyed=20 it. 
------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C281AE.366F6D80-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Primalchrome" Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Back on Cook Date: 01 Nov 2002 13:57:33 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C281AE.A0AA8EA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable the Silver Spike covered the release of the Lady and the 10, and a book = detailing her take over control of the area and the birth of her new = Empire would be great as well... >drool< Oh man, now THAT would be a good one. Anyone else read "Daughter of the Empire" by Feist? It's about the = political/military struggles of a kneecapped house in an feudal oriental = society. (ala Riftwar) Somehow I think the Lady would display even = more guile and maneuvering.... ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C281AE.A0AA8EA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
the Silver Spike = covered the release=20 of the Lady and the 10, and a book detailing her take over control of = the area=20 and the birth of her new Empire would be great as well...
 
>drool<  Oh man, now THAT = would be a=20 good one.
 
Anyone else read "Daughter of the = Empire" by=20 Feist?  It's about the political/military struggles of a kneecapped = house=20 in an feudal oriental society.  (ala Riftwar)  Somehow I think = the=20 Lady would display even more guile and maneuvering....
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C281AE.A0AA8EA0-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: schew@interzone.com (Steve Chew) Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) New BC books... Date: 01 Nov 2002 14:58:59 -0500 (EST) >> On a different note, one of the things that I didn't like that >> well from the Glittering Stone books was how much Cook took advantage of >> Smoke and then Murgen to float around, viewing what's happening all over >> the world. It was a convenient tool for Sleepy and the rest of the BC >> of course, but it was almost *too* convenient in my opinion. I think >> it reduced tension since the BC could almost always anticipate what was >> going to happen next. I prefered it when they had to work out what to >> do without foreknowledge of the number of troops, their locations, etc. >> If I remember correctly, Cook got away from this technique in >> the last book or two and that may be part of why I preferred those books >> to the earlier Glittering Stone books. Did anyone else have that problem >> with the GS books? >> > >I didn't like it in general, but I kind of got the impression that Cook >wanted to give them better intel, and found a way to do with magic what they >didn't have the technology to do. > >It didn't seem THAT bad, but I agree that it rankled just a bit. > I didn't mind the technique itself as much as the result. I felt we spent too much time "wandering" around with the ghost-walkers looking at what was happening. Meantime, the rest of the BC was usually just sitting in one place waiting for the intelligence report. I think Cook was trying to solve two problems: the BC was too small to be moving around a lot taking action, and he wanted to show what was happening in multiple places at once. Those are difficult problems for an author to solve. I think I preferred it when we didn't know what was happening elsewhere -- it gave the characters more to worry about and plan for. A similar situation existed in Shadows Linger where there was a small BC contingent in the city and for most of the book they stayed in one place. The tension was higher in that book though, due to the internal conflicts and the fact that not everyone (including the reader) knew what was going on. I think that the GS books could have used techniques, internal conflicts and more mystery, to add tension. One thing that I forgot to mention in the original post was that I am somewhat concerned that if we do get new Black Company books that the same problem will occur if Cook uses Croaker and his new powers to "wander" over the lands watching everything that happens. I think there is much more tension if the story is told from the point of view of an uninformed soldier rather than an uninvolved ghost-walker. Steve ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pete Flugstad Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Back on Cook Date: 01 Nov 2002 13:59:30 -0600 Primalchrome wrote: > Anyone else read "Daughter of the Empire" by Feist? It's about the > political/military struggles of a kneecapped house in an feudal > oriental society. (ala Riftwar) Somehow I think the Lady would > display even more guile and maneuvering.... Yes, I loved that book. The Lady would put that girl to shame, but then I'm a bit biased towards the BC world :-). Pete ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Koshel Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Back on Cook Date: 01 Nov 2002 12:06:58 -0800 (PST) Totally agree with you on the Feist "Empire" series. Too bad he only had a couple more good books left in him after he wrote that series. The scheming was incredible, I just re-read a couple of years ago and absolutely loved it. Plus, ditto/drool on the Lady series. Anyone else on the thread checked out the Malazan series by Steven Erikson yet. Absolutely incredible stuff. I'm just finishing book 2 and eagerly awaiting book 3 which should be available in Canada soon. He lists Glen Cook as a big influence. It's nice to see that G.R.R.Martin is not the only one who can do big book fantasy properly. Mike --- Primalchrome wrote: > the Silver Spike covered the release of the Lady and > the 10, and a book detailing her take over control > of the area and the birth of her new Empire would be > great as well... > > >drool< Oh man, now THAT would be a good one. > > Anyone else read "Daughter of the Empire" by Feist? > It's about the political/military struggles of a > kneecapped house in an feudal oriental society. > (ala Riftwar) Somehow I think the Lady would > display even more guile and maneuvering.... > > > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Axemaster2001@aol.com Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) Date: 01 Nov 2002 15:11:38 EST --part1_15c.164ed6a2.2af439fa_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/1/02 2:56:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, primalchrome@bellsouth.net writes: > so I'm nixing any participation in it. mmm you were the only one participating in it. ill play alone in the sandbox now that youve taken your toys home... Axemaster 61 Cleric Lilaxe 58 Warrior --part1_15c.164ed6a2.2af439fa_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/1/02 2:56:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, primalchrome@bellsouth.net writes:

so I'm nixing any participation in it.


mmm you were the only one participating in it. ill play alone in the sandbox now that youve taken your toys home...


Axemaster  61 Cleric
Lilaxe 58 Warrior
   
--part1_15c.164ed6a2.2af439fa_boundary-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: schew@interzone.com (Steve Chew) Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Erikson Date: 01 Nov 2002 15:11:59 -0500 (EST) > >Plus, ditto/drool on the Lady series. Anyone else on >the thread checked out the Malazan series by Steven >Erikson yet. Absolutely incredible stuff. I'm just >finishing book 2 and eagerly awaiting book 3 which >should be available in Canada soon. He lists Glen Cook >as a big influence. It's nice to see that G.R.R.Martin >is not the only one who can do big book fantasy >properly. > I've ordered the first Malazan book, Gardens of the Moon, from Amazon but it apparently has to be special-ordered. Hopefully I'll get it in a couple weeks. One of the reviewers there said that the books aren't available in the US yet for some reason. Steve ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Axemaster2001@aol.com Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Back on Cook Date: 01 Nov 2002 15:14:28 EST --part1_70.259be6d2.2af43aa4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i read Feist a long long long time ago, when it first came out. enjoyed it a lot, but felt the follow up books just didnt do the initial story justice... kinda like Dune, the follow up stopped me reading the whole series Axemaster 61 Cleric Lilaxe 58 Warrior --part1_70.259be6d2.2af43aa4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i read Feist a long long long time ago, when it first came out. enjoyed it a lot, but felt the follow up books just didnt do the initial story justice... kinda like Dune, the follow up stopped me reading the whole series



Axemaster  61 Cleric
Lilaxe 58 Warrior
   
--part1_70.259be6d2.2af43aa4_boundary-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Koshel Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Erikson Date: 01 Nov 2002 12:19:32 -0800 (PST) You might want to try ordering from Amazon.ca or Chapters.Indigo.ca. They both ship from Canada but have access to all the books published in the U.K.. I'm not sure what the shipping costs will be like but I don't think they should be too bad. Plus, they have Books 1 and 2 available immediately in paperback with 3 available by January at the latest. My understanding, (from quotes by Erikson himself) for the lack of an American publisher is that the U.S. publishers feel the series is too complicated for U.S. readers. What a load a crap. Anyone interested in finding out more about this series might want to check out www.malazanempire.com Mike --- Steve Chew wrote: > > > >Plus, ditto/drool on the Lady series. Anyone else > on > >the thread checked out the Malazan series by Steven > >Erikson yet. Absolutely incredible stuff. I'm just > >finishing book 2 and eagerly awaiting book 3 which > >should be available in Canada soon. He lists Glen > Cook > >as a big influence. It's nice to see that > G.R.R.Martin > >is not the only one who can do big book fantasy > >properly. > > > > I've ordered the first Malazan book, Gardens of the > Moon, from Amazon > but it apparently has to be special-ordered. > Hopefully I'll get it in a > couple weeks. One of the reviewers there said that > the books aren't > available in the US yet for some reason. > > Steve > > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives > of this list, > visit . __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ram=F3n=20Pe=F1a?= Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) New BC books... Date: 01 Nov 2002 23:07:01 +0100 Steve Chew wrote: > On a different note, one of the things that I didn't like that > well from the Glittering Stone books was how much Cook took advantage of > Smoke and then Murgen to float around, viewing what's happening all over > the world. It was a convenient tool for Sleepy and the rest of the BC > of course, but it was almost *too* convenient in my opinion. I think > it reduced tension since the BC could almost always anticipate what was > going to happen next. I prefered it when they had to work out what to > do without foreknowledge of the number of troops, their locations, etc. > If I remember correctly, Cook got away from this technique in > the last book or two and that may be part of why I preferred those books > to the earlier Glittering Stone books. Did anyone else have that problem > with the GS books? Not really. I think that the Smoke/Murgen floating was mostly there to allow Cook to tell bits of the story which otherwise couldn't have been properly "chronicled", and I think the device worked very well. The foreknowledge gained with it was secondary. If it was not the floating, you'd have had spies, or traitors to get exactly the same result. -Ramon ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eric Herrmann Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) New BC books... Date: 01 Nov 2002 15:35:38 -0700 > Not really. I think that the Smoke/Murgen floating was mostly there to > allow Cook to tell bits of the story which otherwise couldn't have been > properly "chronicled", and I think the device worked very well. The > foreknowledge gained with it was secondary. If it was not the floating, > you'd have had spies, or traitors to get exactly the same result. I disagree. One of Glen's signature styles is the telling of the whole story from all points of view. He employs it with Dread Empire, Dragon Never Sleeps, and Black Company. (I guess the style really wouldn't work well with Garrett.) But usually he just tells the story first person from the other viewpoints. This would be the only time he has relied upon a device to do so that I can think of. I think the Smoke/Murgen effect was actually used as a device for divining knowledge about the Plain than for chronicling or strategic/tactical/spying info. -- Eric Herrmann ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Grey Lowell Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) Date: 01 Nov 2002 15:02:32 -0800 whoa, i check my email today and i find more than 30 emails since my last post. which would be a good thing if it had managed to focus on Cook, and not degenerated into bickering... anyway, i apologize for all this. i'm not a terribly clear email writer in the best of times, i often manage to put things the wrong way in some fashion or another, and my last missive was no exception. my only excuse was that i was in dredging the last reservoirs of my laptop's battery and didn't take the time required to make myself or my question clear. but enough about me. this was supposed to be about Cook. so, spoiler warning... as this original Kali thread pointed out Cook's various settings bare many similarities to actual (or mythological) world settings or events. Kina is Kali, the characters in Shadowline are the Norse gods, that the white rose was a resistance movement have all been mentioned recently. even more extreme is the (what i took to be) handling of the creation of Islam in his Dread Empire Series (The Fire in His Hands & With Mercy to None). in that last case, the entire religion is fundamentally a con perpetrated upon those who want to believe. He makes it clear that El Murid (perhaps the most deceived and faithful) compromises his religious teachings for what is convenient or expedient at the time. the theme of religion as a con is played again in Petty Pewter Gods where it is the so-called gods (actually inter-dimensional refugees) are actually drawing strength from their worshippers, in a turn about from the traditional way these things are supposed to work. i didn't want to make this a discussion of our real world core beliefs, but inside the worlds of Glen Cook, from the perspective of his characters, what role does religion have? all but a few of his heroic characters seem to be cynical about it (exceptions might include Sleepy, Playmate, some people from in Tower of Fear) and in a world where gods are generally just really bad-ass sorcerors or something (Swordbearer, Black Company, etc.) why does there still exist a fundamental need or want to believe in them? appease them perhaps but what else is involved? anyway since i tend to be bad at drawing parallels and my spiritual side is um, over-intellectualized?, i wondered if someone with a different background or perspective had come away with something more in Glen Cook's works that i had missed. i have an impression on how i think Glen Cook's philosophy on religion was demonstrated but perhaps it meshes too well with how i think of things, so i wondered if there were other ways to read it than i had. does that make it clearer Derrill Kisc? i know i have difficulty expressing what i'm getting at, but was a question that had bugged me occasionally when reading Glen Cook... especially for the El Murid books, possibly since those deal with a monotheistic belief system rather than clashing polytheistic menageries which aren't very like the prevalent religions in his readers' areas... On Thursday, Oct 31, 2002, at 03:12 US/Pacific, Kisc Kempson wrote: > I'm not sure what you're asking. > > You see, as a man with religious convictions, I have a difficult time > answering other than: any attempt to rationalize the human reliance on > religion is misguided. There is a God. We must learn to rely on Him. > > There are a lot of people who bury themselves (or are buried by > others) in > rhetoric and zeal, and pull their convictions so far from anything to > do > with today's reality. > > There are a ton of people who are waiting to take advantage of whoever > they > can... some people are too trusting, too blind of faith. > > I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, aka > the > Mormons. I very strongly believe that what I'm taught is as correct as > it > gets, on Earth. However, I've been overheard to say, from time to > time, "I > would enjoy church a lot more if it wasn't for all the damn Mormons." > Some > people go to church for the wrong reason; some people go to church for > the > right reasons, but don't live their convictions in any meaningful way. > Some > people -- me, for instance -- are closet misanthropes and couldn't be > pleased even if you put a cherry on top. > > (Most of us, of course, have every one of these flaws in greater or > lesser > degrees. People often get categorized by what you see them doing when > you're > in a bad mood.) > > All of these (and many other) sorts of things lead to people who don't > believe in a deity at all. If, for extreme example, Father Clemente > raped > you when you were a teenager, then anything he says he believes must be > absolute crap. > > Folks who don't believe in deity at all would be the folks who would > need to > rationalize humanity's reliance on religion. > > Folks who believe in deity would answer similarly to me: Well, He's > there, > isn't He? What's to rationalize? Humanity is drawn by an inbuilt > tendency to > search for the Creator. A very polite "duh" would seem the best answer > here > :) > > So... Uhm... can you clarify a little bit what you are asking? I rather > suspect that my answer has nothing to do with the question you asked, > as > opposed to the question I read. > > Derrill ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ram=F3n=20Pe=F1a?= Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) New BC books... Date: 02 Nov 2002 00:09:49 +0100 Eric Herrmann wrote: > > > Not really. I think that the Smoke/Murgen floating was mostly there to > > allow Cook to tell bits of the story which otherwise couldn't have been > > properly "chronicled", and I think the device worked very well. The > > foreknowledge gained with it was secondary. If it was not the floating, > > you'd have had spies, or traitors to get exactly the same result. > > I disagree. > > One of Glen's signature styles is the telling of the whole story from > all points of view. He employs it with Dread Empire, Dragon Never > Sleeps, and Black Company. (I guess the style really wouldn't work well > with Garrett.) But usually he just tells the story first person from > the other viewpoints. This would be the only time he has relied upon a > device to do so that I can think of. I don't remember right now how he did it exactly in the older BC books (it has been a long time since I read them) but the conflict the Company finds itself in the books of the North was mostly two sided, while in the South they find themselves in one way more complex and multisided. If Cook wanted to present that conflict *and* preserving the one-person's chronicle feel of the BC at the same time, he needed a such device. Perhaps not necesarily this one exactly, OK. But for me is clear that for the story he wanted to tell he'd have needed an omniscent narrator point of view, not the tunnel vision of the older BC books, so the floating Murgen was a device that let him do both things at once. Not that I think it was a bad thing, quite to the contrary. -Ramon > > I think the Smoke/Murgen effect was actually used as a device for > divining knowledge about the Plain than for chronicling or > strategic/tactical/spying info. > > -- > Eric Herrmann > > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Stacey Harris Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) New BC books... Date: 01 Nov 2002 18:55:55 -0500 Steve, I have to agree with you, from an aesthetic point of view: The all-seeing eye was an over-reach for the drama. Steve/Stacey ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jordan Raney" Subject: RE: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) Date: 01 Nov 2002 18:23:45 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C281D3.D07227E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>I joined this list because it was about Glen Cooks books and novels<< Then talk about them. Not your beliefs. Again, no one cares. -----Original Message----- From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Axemaster2001@aol.com Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 12:02 PM To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) >> Sounds like a double standard to me, Igor. As far as I know, religious belief or lack thereof has never been a determining factor in the overall intelligence or strength of a person. Spouting ill-conceived opinion for no other reason than to insult a fair percentage of the world population does, however, speak volumes about the person's stability and maturity. This is just as true for someone like Pat Buchanan, the Pope, or Axemaster, the AOL user. << "ill-conceived opinion" - "insult a fair percentage of the world population" Why is my opinon ill-conceived. It is my opinion. I never once told Derril his opinion was wrong, he stated his, quoted below, (in the off-topic post that started all this). Why is this a double standard? Or are you referring to the person who attacked me and claimed I must also be a democrat, and then someone said "oh dont make this about politics too, im gonna unsubscribe"? I dont care who you worship, how you worship or what you worship. What worries me though is that some of you who do worship something are so insulted, so threatened, so perturbed by those who have a differing opinion. To say my "stability and maturity" also revolve around my adherence to your beliefs speaks volumes to me. I joined this list because it was about Glen Cooks books and novels. Most of these books are fantasy and science fiction based. In the fantasy novels alternate gods, demi-gods, mythological religons and more are everyday events. Someone brought up the close similarities of the Books of South religious structure and how close it tied into the real world Hindu and South-East Asian religons. From that someone else stated: <> - from Derrills email Which lead to my email. I had thought I was on a list of like minded Cook fans, and in my (normal) experience fantasy and sci-fi fans are a little more open minded. I guess I was wrong. Derrils full post: >>> I'm not sure what you're asking. You see, as a man with religious convictions, I have a difficult time answering other than: any attempt to rationalize the human reliance on religion is misguided. There is a God. We must learn to rely on Him. There are a lot of people who bury themselves (or are buried by others) in rhetoric and zeal, and pull their convictions so far from anything to do with today's reality. There are a ton of people who are waiting to take advantage of whoever they can... some people are too trusting, too blind of faith. I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, aka the Mormons. I very strongly believe that what I'm taught is as correct as it gets, on Earth. However, I've been overheard to say, from time to time, "I would enjoy church a lot more if it wasn't for all the damn Mormons." Some people go to church for the wrong reason; some people go to church for the right reasons, but don't live their convictions in any meaningful way. Some people -- me, for instance -- are closet misanthropes and couldn't be pleased even if you put a cherry on top. (Most of us, of course, have every one of these flaws in greater or lesser degrees. People often get categorized by what you see them doing when you're in a ba mood.) All of these (and many other) sorts of things lead to people who don't believe in a deity at all. If, for extreme example, Father Clemente raped you when you were a teenager, then anything he says he believes must be absolute crap. Folks who don't believe in deity at all would be the folks who would need to rationalize humanity's reliance on religion. Folks who believe in deity would answer similarly to me: Well, He's there, isn't He? What's to rationalize? Humanity is drawn by an inbuilt tendency to search for the Creator. A very polite "duh" would seem the best answer here :) So... Uhm... can you clarify a little bit what you are asking? I rather suspect that my answer has nothing to do with the question you asked, as opposed to the question I read. Derrill ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C281D3.D07227E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>I joined this list because it was = about Glen=20 Cooks books and novels<<
 
Then = talk about=20 them.  Not your beliefs.  Again, no one = cares.
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com=20 [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of=20 Axemaster2001@aol.com
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 = 12:02=20 PM
To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com
Subject: = Re:=20 Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu=20 Mythology)



>>
Sounds = like a double=20 standard to me, Igor.

As far as I know, religious belief or = lack=20 thereof has never been a
determining factor in the overall = intelligence or=20 strength of a person.
Spouting ill-conceived opinion for no other = reason=20 than to insult a fair
percentage of the world population does, = however,=20 speak volumes about the
person's stability and maturity.  This = is just=20 as true for someone like Pat
Buchanan, the Pope, or Axemaster, the = AOL=20 user.
<<

"ill-conceived opinion" - "insult a fair = percentage=20 of the world population"

Why is my opinon ill-conceived. It is = my=20 opinion. I never once told Derril his opinion was wrong, he stated = his, quoted=20 below, (in the off-topic post that started all this).

Why is = this a=20 double standard? Or are you referring to the person who attacked me = and=20 claimed I must also be a democrat, and then someone said "oh dont make = this=20 about politics too, im gonna unsubscribe"?

I dont care who you = worship, how you worship or what you worship. What worries me though = is that=20 some of you who do worship something are so insulted, so threatened, = so=20 perturbed by those who have a differing opinion.

To say my = "stability=20 and maturity" also revolve around my adherence to your beliefs speaks = volumes=20 to me.

I joined this list because it was about Glen Cooks = books and=20 novels. Most of these books are fantasy and science fiction based. In = the=20 fantasy novels alternate gods, demi-gods, mythological religons and = more are=20 everyday events. Someone brought up the close similarities of the = Books of=20 South religious structure and how close it tied into the real world = Hindu and=20 South-East Asian religons. From that someone else stated:=20

<<Folks who don't believe in deity at all would be the = folks who=20 would need to
rationalize humanity's reliance on = religion.
>> -=20 from Derrills email

Which lead to my email.

I had = thought I was=20 on a list of like minded Cook fans, and in my (normal) experience = fantasy and=20 sci-fi fans are a little more open minded.

I guess I was=20 wrong.


Derrils full post:
>>>

I'm not = sure what=20 you're asking.
You see, as a man with religious convictions, I have = a=20 difficult time
answering other than: any attempt to rationalize the = human=20 reliance on
religion is misguided. There is a God. We must learn to = rely on=20 Him.
There are a lot of people who bury themselves (or are buried = by=20 others) in
rhetoric and zeal, and pull their convictions so far = from=20 anything to do
with today's reality.
There are a ton of people = who are=20 waiting to take advantage of whoever they
can... some people are = too=20 trusting, too blind of faith.
I'm a member of the Church of Jesus = Christ of=20 Latter Day Saints, aka the
Mormons. I very strongly believe that = what I'm=20 taught is as correct as it
gets, on Earth. However, I've been = overheard to=20 say, from time to time, "I
would enjoy church a lot more if it = wasn't for=20 all the damn Mormons." Some
people go to church for the wrong = reason; some=20 people go to church for the
right reasons, but don't live their = convictions=20 in any meaningful way. Some
people -- me, for instance -- are = closet=20 misanthropes and couldn't be
pleased even if you put a cherry on=20 top.
(Most of us, of course, have every one of these flaws in = greater or=20 lesser
degrees. People often get categorized by what you see them = doing=20 when you're
in a ba mood.)
All of these (and many other) sorts = of things=20 lead to people who don't
believe in a deity at all. If, for extreme = example, Father Clemente raped
you when you were a teenager, then = anything=20 he says he believes must be
absolute crap.
Folks who don't = believe in=20 deity at all would be the folks who would need to
rationalize = humanity's=20 reliance on religion.
Folks who believe in deity would answer = similarly to=20 me: Well, He's there,
isn't He? What's to rationalize? Humanity is = drawn by=20 an inbuilt tendency to
search for the Creator. A very polite "duh" = would=20 seem the best answer here
:)
So... Uhm... can you clarify a = little bit=20 what you are asking? I rather
suspect that my answer has nothing to = do with=20 the question you asked, as
opposed to the question I=20 = read.
Derrill



= ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C281D3.D07227E0-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Derrill \"Kisc\" Guilbert" Subject: RE: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) Date: 01 Nov 2002 17:55:42 -0700 Oh yeah, that is much clearer. As you can probably tell, I thought you were asking for a tie in to real life. The only thing I can say for sure in this regard is that Mr. Cook tends to base his stories as much on reality as possible. As has been said numerous times, the more reality that your readers will recognize that you can put in a book, the more real it will seem to them. As everyone knows, most of the people in the real world either believe in deity(s) or are searching for such. There has to be a reason for this... whether it is because there is a God that our souls are reaching for or because we're just trying to explain a complex and often contrary world is a non-issue here. People ARE searching for a reason why they are alive, a creator, something. Putting that into books seems to add that bit of reality to it, I suppose. Offhand, I would suppose that a book where there the people have no interest in a search for creator would be nearly as unreal as Douglas Adams' Krikketers. This was a people who lived deep in a nebula, and were completely unaware of the rest of the galaxy until one day they discovered space travel and, upon seeing the mass of stars outside their nebula, promptly said "It'll have to go." Adams describes them carefully. They never looked up at the sky. There was nothing to see. I can't do the description justice, but it is completely unreal. I would like to suggest further that most of the characters in Cook's books don't seem (to me) to be saying "there is no god" so much as they are saying "that there is no god". I could be wrong, easily, but I never got them impression of confidence in any of their atheism... mostly I got the impression of confidence that "this f-er before me is no god, and I've got other things to worry about than deciding if there is a god that matters". Most of the main characters in Mr. Cook's books seem to be less than totally philosophical. Derrill |-----Original Message----- |From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com |[mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Grey Lowell |Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 4:03 PM |To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com |Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu |Mythology) | | | | |whoa, i check my email today and i find more than 30 emails since my |last post. which would be |a good thing if it had managed to focus on Cook, and not degenerated |into bickering... anyway, |i apologize for all this. i'm not a terribly clear email writer in the |best of times, i often manage to |put things the wrong way in some fashion or another, and my last |missive was no exception. my |only excuse was that i was in dredging the last reservoirs of my |laptop's battery and didn't take the |time required to make myself or my question clear. | |but enough about me. this was supposed to be about Cook. so, spoiler |warning... | | | | | | | | |as this original Kali thread pointed out Cook's various settings bare |many similarities to actual (or |mythological) world settings or events. Kina is Kali, the characters in |Shadowline are the Norse |gods, that the white rose was a resistance movement have all been |mentioned recently. even more |extreme is the (what i took to be) handling of the creation of Islam in |his Dread Empire Series (The |Fire in His Hands & With Mercy to None). in that last case, the entire |religion is fundamentally a con |perpetrated upon those who want to believe. He makes it clear that El |Murid (perhaps the most |deceived and faithful) compromises his religious teachings for what is |convenient or expedient at |the time. the theme of religion as a con is played again in Petty |Pewter Gods where it is the so-called |gods (actually inter-dimensional refugees) are actually drawing |strength from their worshippers, in a |turn about from the traditional way these things are supposed to work. | |i didn't want to make this a discussion of our real world core beliefs, |but inside the worlds of Glen Cook, |from the perspective of his characters, what role does religion have? |all but a few of his heroic characters |seem to be cynical about it (exceptions might include Sleepy, Playmate, |some people from in Tower of Fear) |and in a world where gods are generally just really bad-ass sorcerors |or something (Swordbearer, Black |Company, etc.) why does there still exist a fundamental need or want to |believe in them? appease them |perhaps but what else is involved? | |anyway since i tend to be bad at drawing parallels and my spiritual |side is um, over-intellectualized?, i |wondered if someone with a different background or perspective had come |away with something more |in Glen Cook's works that i had missed. i have an impression on how i |think Glen Cook's philosophy on |religion was demonstrated but perhaps it meshes too well with how i |think of things, so i wondered if there |were other ways to read it than i had. | |does that make it clearer Derrill Kisc? i know i have difficulty |expressing what i'm getting at, but was a |question that had bugged me occasionally when reading Glen Cook... |especially for the El Murid books, |possibly since those deal with a monotheistic belief system rather than |clashing polytheistic menageries |which aren't very like the prevalent religions in his readers' areas... | |On Thursday, Oct 31, 2002, at 03:12 US/Pacific, Kisc Kempson wrote: | |> I'm not sure what you're asking. |> |> You see, as a man with religious convictions, I have a difficult time |> answering other than: any attempt to rationalize the human reliance on |> religion is misguided. There is a God. We must learn to rely on Him. |> |> There are a lot of people who bury themselves (or are buried by |> others) in |> rhetoric and zeal, and pull their convictions so far from anything to |> do |> with today's reality. |> |> There are a ton of people who are waiting to take advantage of whoever |> they |> can... some people are too trusting, too blind of faith. |> |> I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, aka |> the |> Mormons. I very strongly believe that what I'm taught is as correct as |> it |> gets, on Earth. However, I've been overheard to say, from time to |> time, "I |> would enjoy church a lot more if it wasn't for all the damn Mormons." |> Some |> people go to church for the wrong reason; some people go to church for |> the |> right reasons, but don't live their convictions in any meaningful way. |> Some |> people -- me, for instance -- are closet misanthropes and couldn't be |> pleased even if you put a cherry on top. |> |> (Most of us, of course, have every one of these flaws in greater or |> lesser |> degrees. People often get categorized by what you see them doing when |> you're |> in a bad mood.) |> |> All of these (and many other) sorts of things lead to people who don't |> believe in a deity at all. If, for extreme example, Father Clemente |> raped |> you when you were a teenager, then anything he says he believes must be |> absolute crap. |> |> Folks who don't believe in deity at all would be the folks who would |> need to |> rationalize humanity's reliance on religion. |> |> Folks who believe in deity would answer similarly to me: Well, He's |> there, |> isn't He? What's to rationalize? Humanity is drawn by an inbuilt |> tendency to |> search for the Creator. A very polite "duh" would seem the best answer |> here |> :) |> |> So... Uhm... can you clarify a little bit what you are asking? I rather |> suspect that my answer has nothing to do with the question you asked, |> as |> opposed to the question I read. |> |> Derrill | | |======================================================================= | To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, | visit . | ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Stacey Harris Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) Date: 01 Nov 2002 20:11:07 -0600 Derrill, There are *many* books where no one is looking for a creator (or thinks they know of one)--many of Cook's among them!--and, no, the people are generally not in the least bit more "unreal" than those in other fictional universes. You pays your money and you takes your choice--whether we're talking about choice of belief/non-belief or choice of fictions to read. Steve ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Murphy Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Back on Cook Date: 01 Nov 2002 23:32:58 -0800 --------------FECB7328A871C32F25B36E08 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Axemaster2001@aol.com wrote: > i read Feist a long long long time ago, when it first came out. > enjoyed it a lot, but felt the follow up books just didnt do the > initial story justice... kinda like Dune, the follow up stopped me > reading the whole series > > > > Axemaster 61 Cleric > Lilaxe 58 Warrior > If you thought the later books were a let down, down read the crap his son wrote. I tried one of them (House Atreides) and it really sucked. He had Bene Gesserit laughing and giggling like schoolchildren. I refused to finish that book, stopped 3 chapters shy of the ending. J Murphy --------------FECB7328A871C32F25B36E08 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  

Axemaster2001@aol.com wrote:

i read Feist a long long long time ago, when it first came out. enjoyed it a lot, but felt the follow up books just didnt do the initial story justice... kinda like Dune, the follow up stopped me reading the whole series
 
 

Axemaster  61 Cleric
Lilaxe 58 Warrior
 

 If you thought the later books were a let down, down read the crap his son wrote. I tried one of them (House Atreides) and it really sucked. He had Bene Gesserit laughing and giggling like schoolchildren. I refused to finish that book, stopped 3 chapters shy of the ending.

 J Murphy
 
  --------------FECB7328A871C32F25B36E08-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Fraser=20Ronald?= Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Kina is realy Kali Date: 02 Nov 2002 14:15:28 +0000 (GMT) --- Michele Riccio wrote: > On 31 Oct 2002 at 10:55, Derrill "Kisc" Guilbert > wrote > > > In answer to your semi-questions. Samhain is the > Celtic > celebration, which became Halloween (how apropos > that today is > October 31...). As it was explained to me - Samhain > is the day on > which the "curtain" between the living and the dead > is thinnest. > > The Celts do/did (?) have a "death" god - or Lord of > the underworld, > Anwen (sp?) (that's the Welsh version - I can't > remember the Irish). > Also - Mannannan (sp?) is considered the Lord of Tir > na n'Og, which > is where all good Celts go when they die ;-) > I'd be interested in a reference for this. I've heard of Annwn used as the name of an underworld, but references to it seem to be restricted to later, Arthurian works, which, while they might have been based on true, mythological figures, would tend to warp those figures to match the Christian world/underworld view. I'm not doubting your statement, I'm just curious. Also, while Annwn has a ruler, he does not have the same function as a death god. Manannan mac Lir was both the ruler of Tir na n-Og and a god of weather and the sea. Also, not really a death god. Though Tir na n-Og was an underworld, Manannan had no choice in who came, nor did he have any power to cause or withhold death. Just my assumptions based on my readings. I would love (that's not sarcasm, I'm serious) some references to learn more. I do admit to a blind=spot with the Brythonnic myths. Sorry to drag this more off topic. ===== Fraser Ronald "Sword's Edge" (http://www.swordsedge.net/) AtFantasy Alliance Fiction Archive (http://www.atfantasy.com/fiction) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Igor Filippov Subject: RE: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) Date: 02 Nov 2002 13:27:30 -0500 (EST) Don't speak for everybody Jordan. If you don't care, it's your business. On Fri, 1 Nov 2002, Jordan Raney wrote: > >>I joined this list because it was about Glen Cooks books and novels<< > > Then talk about them. Not your beliefs. Again, no one cares. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of > Axemaster2001@aol.com > Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 12:02 PM > To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu > Mythology) > > > > > >> > Sounds like a double standard to me, Igor. > > As far as I know, religious belief or lack thereof has never been a > determining factor in the overall intelligence or strength of a person. > Spouting ill-conceived opinion for no other reason than to insult a fair > percentage of the world population does, however, speak volumes about the > person's stability and maturity. This is just as true for someone like > Pat > Buchanan, the Pope, or Axemaster, the AOL user. > << > > "ill-conceived opinion" - "insult a fair percentage of the world > population" > > Why is my opinon ill-conceived. It is my opinion. I never once told Derril > his opinion was wrong, he stated his, quoted below, (in the off-topic post > that started all this). > > Why is this a double standard? Or are you referring to the person who > attacked me and claimed I must also be a democrat, and then someone said "oh > dont make this about politics too, im gonna unsubscribe"? > > I dont care who you worship, how you worship or what you worship. What > worries me though is that some of you who do worship something are so > insulted, so threatened, so perturbed by those who have a differing opinion. > > To say my "stability and maturity" also revolve around my adherence to > your beliefs speaks volumes to me. > > I joined this list because it was about Glen Cooks books and novels. Most > of these books are fantasy and science fiction based. In the fantasy novels > alternate gods, demi-gods, mythological religons and more are everyday > events. Someone brought up the close similarities of the Books of South > religious structure and how close it tied into the real world Hindu and > South-East Asian religons. From that someone else stated: > > < need to > rationalize humanity's reliance on religion. > >> - from Derrills email > > Which lead to my email. > > I had thought I was on a list of like minded Cook fans, and in my (normal) > experience fantasy and sci-fi fans are a little more open minded. > > I guess I was wrong. > > > Derrils full post: > >>> > > I'm not sure what you're asking. > You see, as a man with religious convictions, I have a difficult time > answering other than: any attempt to rationalize the human reliance on > religion is misguided. There is a God. We must learn to rely on Him. > There are a lot of people who bury themselves (or are buried by others) in > rhetoric and zeal, and pull their convictions so far from anything to do > with today's reality. > There are a ton of people who are waiting to take advantage of whoever > they > can... some people are too trusting, too blind of faith. > I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, aka the > Mormons. I very strongly believe that what I'm taught is as correct as it > gets, on Earth. However, I've been overheard to say, from time to time, "I > would enjoy church a lot more if it wasn't for all the damn Mormons." Some > people go to church for the wrong reason; some people go to church for the > right reasons, but don't live their convictions in any meaningful way. > Some > people -- me, for instance -- are closet misanthropes and couldn't be > pleased even if you put a cherry on top. > (Most of us, of course, have every one of these flaws in greater or lesser > degrees. People often get categorized by what you see them doing when > you're > in a ba mood.) > All of these (and many other) sorts of things lead to people who don't > believe in a deity at all. If, for extreme example, Father Clemente raped > you when you were a teenager, then anything he says he believes must be > absolute crap. > Folks who don't believe in deity at all would be the folks who would need > to > rationalize humanity's reliance on religion. > Folks who believe in deity would answer similarly to me: Well, He's there, > isn't He? What's to rationalize? Humanity is drawn by an inbuilt tendency > to > search for the Creator. A very polite "duh" would seem the best answer > here > :) > So... Uhm... can you clarify a little bit what you are asking? I rather > suspect that my answer has nothing to do with the question you asked, as > opposed to the question I read. > Derrill > > > > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Derrill \"Kisc\" Guilbert" Subject: RE: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) Date: 02 Nov 2002 11:42:42 -0700 Yeah, you know, for some reason I'm sitting over here thinking "all peasants worship the god of the harvest or the goddess of fertility or something, of course, because they are stupid peasants". (I was counting people who have found a deity among those who are "searching for eternity", if you weeeeell.) What a moronic thing to think, really. What am I, but a techno-peasant? Well, maybe a techo-serf, but same diff. Heh. Derrill |-----Original Message----- |From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com |[mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Stacey |Harris |Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 7:11 PM |To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com |Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu |Mythology) | | |Derrill, | |There are *many* books where no one is looking for a creator (or thinks |they know of one)--many of Cook's among them!--and, no, the people are |generally not in the least bit more "unreal" than those in other |fictional universes. | |You pays your money and you takes your choice--whether we're talking |about choice of belief/non-belief or choice of fictions to read. | |Steve | | |======================================================================= | To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, | visit . | ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott havner Subject: (glencook-fans) Rligious opinions Date: 02 Nov 2002 12:02:26 -0800 (PST) Recently I've been seeing some things on here that really spool me up. One is the name calling and finger pointing over religion. I am in the US, I don't know about the rest of y'all but in the US we have freedom of religion. If you can't play nice and be tolerant of the views of others, the unplug your computer, put on some shoes, and go stand on the corner down in the dreams district( yes right beside Barking Dog Amato) and voice your opinions on religion there...NOT HERE!!! __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott havner Subject: (glencook-fans) Cooks religous reality Date: 02 Nov 2002 12:16:00 -0800 (PST) Religion is one of the things that make Cook's work so vivid and real. If any of you have ever been overseas, you've noticed that religion plays a huge role in many different cultures. Much more so than here in the States. Cook has taken that fact and blended it into his books to give them a feel of reality. And while he never comes right out and makes a direct connection with any known religions of our world, there is enough similarity for the reader to already have something of a feel for the religion. Also the fact that in many of his books the hero is an agnostic( or at least has a ho hum attitude towards the gods), this also adds a bit of reality, most soldiers who are good at what they do, and have done it for a while, tend to lose touch with the religions they grew up with, there are very few exceptions. And I'm not talking about Army or Marines, I'm speaking of elite units. After someone has been exposed to death and destruction over and over again, one tends to lose the belief that there is a higher power or that that higher power cares. Now these are just my opininions, so don't burn me at the stake and send me nastyt grams and cry cause I put religion down, I am just stating an opinion of things I have observed in the last 15 years. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wellyrook@aol.com Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Cooks religous reality Date: 03 Nov 2002 00:30:51 EST > Religion is one of the things that make Cook's work so > vivid and real. > After someone has been exposed to death > and destruction over and over again, one tends to lose > the belief that there is a higher power or that that > higher power cares. Yes, I agree on this point: Cook did a good job of persuading me that the phrase "there are no atheists in foxholes" is most likely literally incorrect. In a real foxhole, having just seen his fellow man's head become torn off by a piece of flying steel, I wonder if even the most dedicated religious worshipper of any creed can NOT doubt the existence of his particular god(s). I suppose it is in the aftermath of an experience like that when a "dedicated" worshipper is either reborn (having been made stronger by the experience) or lost (having been overwhelmed by the experience). I am aware that that phrase is mostly used by people to criticize those who become "suddenly religious" during trying periods in their lives. But literally, it probably isn't true all the time. Side note: I'm not a religious person because I want to get an eternal reward, or because I want to avoid eternal damnation, or because I'm told to worship. I am religious for a simple reason. I love my God. And I show it by being genuinely concerned about others, their welfare, and working with them for the common good. -Welly ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Hayward Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) Date: 03 Nov 2002 12:00:28 +0000 AxeMaster2001@aol.com writes > > In a message dated 11/1/02 1:38:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, primalchrome@bellsouth.net writes: > > > Why is my opinon ill-conceived. - It is no more ill conceived than the following opinions : > Germans are all anti-semites. > Black people are lazy. > White males are evil money grubbers. > Muslims are all militant extremists. > Meaning that they're ALL poorly thought out and highly insulting to the target. > > > > *sigh* > > So, because someone has a divering opinion of religion, they get lumped into the masses of ignorant racists? That statement is as bad as assuming I am a democrat just from > stating my opinion. It was also very confusing since 90% of the world thinks a democrat is someone who believes in democracy rather than autocracy, tyrany or someother unpleasant form of goverment. Which is why attacking democrats doesn't go down well with people on the list who have suffered under such non-democratic forms of goverment. It is necessary to remember that not every one on the list is an american and will understand what is said as common english and not with the special meaning it has to americans It reminds me of the passage in James Blish's novel about the flying cities where a character poses the riddle "Which city has the same name twice?", which is easy for americans but completely incomprehensible outside the USA where city names are not joined with their state/province/country name. George ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Graham Allen Subject: (glencook-fans) Collecting Date: 03 Nov 2002 23:23:40 +1000 Hi All, How many of you are actual Glen Cook collectors ? ie you must own everything he ever did ? If you are - how many of you own _Everything_ ? (excluding swap academy). How close are you ? Do you own all books, but not magazine short stories or what ? Owning all his stuff is my goal, although this is an especially difficult task considering I'm in Australia and half his works were never published here. I've been doing it for about 5 years now and I've got about 16 books. The other thing is I refuse to read the dread empire series until I own them all and I only have 4 at the moment. I'm looking forward to getting stuck in! Cya Graham ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "S Townsend" Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Collecting Date: 03 Nov 2002 08:24:39 -0600 I've got every book except sung in blood & swap academy. I started reading him when swordbearer came out, & just ordered every book from a local dealership at that point. A few of the older ones I had to scrounge to get, but eventually filled in all the holes. I think I have one or two short stories in mags, but didn't really collect them. -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Graham Allen Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 7:24 AM Hi All, How many of you are actual Glen Cook collectors ? ie you must own everything he ever did ? If you are - how many of you own _Everything_ ? (excluding swap academy). How close are you ? Do you own all books, but not magazine short stories or what ? Owning all his stuff is my goal, although this is an especially difficult task considering I'm in Australia and half his works were never published here. I've been doing it for about 5 years now and I've got about 16 books. The other thing is I refuse to read the dread empire series until I own them all and I only have 4 at the moment. I'm looking forward to getting stuck in! Cya Graham ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BaronetCorvu@cs.com Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) New BC books... Date: 03 Nov 2002 09:44:34 EST --part1_168.1686a467.2af69052_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Glen has said many times that he has no interest himself in writing more BC books other than keeping his agent happy. He is "planning" to write more mainly to keep his agent of his back. And the new books, if ever actually written, will take up where the books of the south ended. He has stated emphatically that he will not write about the "past" of the company. When asked if he would allow other writers to fill in the past of the company, he said that while that was an intreguing idea, he doesn't really think that other writers could keep true to his vision. He was then asked what he thought of fan fiction filling in the companies past and he said, " Write all you want. Just don't publish it without giving me some of the money." These statements are what he said at a convention a few years ago (during which only one Garrett book has been published) and could well be be subject to change. Michael W Sweet --part1_168.1686a467.2af69052_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Glen has said many times that he has no interest himself in writing more BC books other than keeping his agent happy.  He is "planning" to write more mainly to keep his agent of his back.  And the new books, if ever actually written, will take up where the books of the south ended.

He has stated emphatically that he will not write about the "past" of the company.  When asked if he would allow other writers to fill in the past of the company, he said that while that was an intreguing idea, he doesn't really think that other writers could keep true to his vision.  He was then asked what he thought of fan fiction filling in the companies past and he said, " Write all you want.  Just don't publish it without giving me some of the money."

These statements are what he said  at a convention a few years ago (during which only one Garrett book has been published) and could well be be subject to change.

Michael W Sweet --part1_168.1686a467.2af69052_boundary-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: PDMohney@aol.com Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Collecting Date: 03 Nov 2002 13:28:09 EST --part1_fb.2f359db8.2af6c4b9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/3/2002 7:24:31 AM Central Standard Time, ga@bigpond.net.au writes: > If you are - how many of you own _Everything_ ? (excluding swap academy). I think I have all his stuff. I bought a copy of Sung in Blood from Books-A-Million quite a few years ago, when they still could order it - though it took months for them to find it - I bought most of the rest of his stuff new, and a few of them used. I've gotten a number of his short stories from ebay auction, I know there are a few periodicals which contain his work which I don't have, but the toughest one, Sung In Blood, I do have. Pete --part1_fb.2f359db8.2af6c4b9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/3/2002 7:24:31 AM Central Standard Time, ga@bigpond.net.au writes:

If you are - how many of you own _Everything_ ?  (excluding swap academy).


I think I have all his stuff.  I bought a copy of Sung in Blood from Books-A-Million quite a few years ago, when they still could order it - though it took months for them to find it - I bought most of the rest of his stuff new, and a few of them used.  I've gotten a number of his short stories from ebay auction, I know there are a few periodicals which contain his work which I don't have, but the toughest one, Sung In Blood, I do have.

Pete --part1_fb.2f359db8.2af6c4b9_boundary-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Llaneza Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Collecting Date: 03 Nov 2002 10:42:21 -0800 I've got most everything he's done, but I do have to replace a lent copy (d'oh) of The Fire in his Hands. I got lucky. Jackpot lucky. An eBay auction of 17 *signed* Cook titles including a numbered copy of Sung in Blood closed for.... $47. Plus $9 for shipping. Sorry guys, but that's my story. I've paid plenty for a couple of titles and am grimly anticipating the replacement cost for Fire in His Hands, but I'd say I'm ahead of the game. I also have a few of his short stories in the periodicals section of my library. *grin* PDMohney@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/3/2002 7:24:31 AM Central Standard Time, > ga@bigpond.net.au writes: > >> If you are - how many of you own _Everything_ ? (excluding swap >> academy). > > > > I think I have all his stuff. I bought a copy of Sung in Blood from > Books-A-Million quite a few years ago, when they still could order it > - though it took months for them to find it - I bought most of the > rest of his stuff new, and a few of them used. I've gotten a number > of his short stories from ebay auction, I know there are a few > periodicals which contain his work which I don't have, but the > toughest one, Sung In Blood, I do have. > > Pete ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jordan Raney" Subject: RE: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu Mythology) Date: 03 Nov 2002 15:08:41 -0600 You care about the religious beliefs of random people on the internet? I feel sorry for you. -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Igor Filippov Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 12:28 PM Mythology) Don't speak for everybody Jordan. If you don't care, it's your business. On Fri, 1 Nov 2002, Jordan Raney wrote: > >>I joined this list because it was about Glen Cooks books and novels<< > > Then talk about them. Not your beliefs. Again, no one cares. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of > Axemaster2001@aol.com > Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 12:02 PM > To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: Reliance on Religion (was RE: (glencook-fans) Hindu > Mythology) > > > > > >> > Sounds like a double standard to me, Igor. > > As far as I know, religious belief or lack thereof has never been a > determining factor in the overall intelligence or strength of a person. > Spouting ill-conceived opinion for no other reason than to insult a fair > percentage of the world population does, however, speak volumes about the > person's stability and maturity. This is just as true for someone like > Pat > Buchanan, the Pope, or Axemaster, the AOL user. > << > > "ill-conceived opinion" - "insult a fair percentage of the world > population" > > Why is my opinon ill-conceived. It is my opinion. I never once told Derril > his opinion was wrong, he stated his, quoted below, (in the off-topic post > that started all this). > > Why is this a double standard? Or are you referring to the person who > attacked me and claimed I must also be a democrat, and then someone said "oh > dont make this about politics too, im gonna unsubscribe"? > > I dont care who you worship, how you worship or what you worship. What > worries me though is that some of you who do worship something are so > insulted, so threatened, so perturbed by those who have a differing opinion. > > To say my "stability and maturity" also revolve around my adherence to > your beliefs speaks volumes to me. > > I joined this list because it was about Glen Cooks books and novels. Most > of these books are fantasy and science fiction based. In the fantasy novels > alternate gods, demi-gods, mythological religons and more are everyday > events. Someone brought up the close similarities of the Books of South > religious structure and how close it tied into the real world Hindu and > South-East Asian religons. From that someone else stated: > > < need to > rationalize humanity's reliance on religion. > >> - from Derrills email > > Which lead to my email. > > I had thought I was on a list of like minded Cook fans, and in my (normal) > experience fantasy and sci-fi fans are a little more open minded. > > I guess I was wrong. > > > Derrils full post: > >>> > > I'm not sure what you're asking. > You see, as a man with religious convictions, I have a difficult time > answering other than: any attempt to rationalize the human reliance on > religion is misguided. There is a God. We must learn to rely on Him. > There are a lot of people who bury themselves (or are buried by others) in > rhetoric and zeal, and pull their convictions so far from anything to do > with today's reality. > There are a ton of people who are waiting to take advantage of whoever > they > can... some people are too trusting, too blind of faith. > I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, aka the > Mormons. I very strongly believe that what I'm taught is as correct as it > gets, on Earth. However, I've been overheard to say, from time to time, "I > would enjoy church a lot more if it wasn't for all the damn Mormons." Some > people go to church for the wrong reason; some people go to church for the > right reasons, but don't live their convictions in any meaningful way. > Some > people -- me, for instance -- are closet misanthropes and couldn't be > pleased even if you put a cherry on top. > (Most of us, of course, have every one of these flaws in greater or lesser > degrees. People often get categorized by what you see them doing when > you're > in a ba mood.) > All of these (and many other) sorts of things lead to people who don't > believe in a deity at all. If, for extreme example, Father Clemente raped > you when you were a teenager, then anything he says he believes must be > absolute crap. > Folks who don't believe in deity at all would be the folks who would need > to > rationalize humanity's reliance on religion. > Folks who believe in deity would answer similarly to me: Well, He's there, > isn't He? What's to rationalize? Humanity is drawn by an inbuilt tendency > to > search for the Creator. A very polite "duh" would seem the best answer > here > :) > So... Uhm... can you clarify a little bit what you are asking? I rather > suspect that my answer has nothing to do with the question you asked, as > opposed to the question I read. > Derrill > > > > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Graham Allen Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Collecting Date: 04 Nov 2002 09:29:48 +1000 There's no better feeling than scrounging through a used book store and turning up a new GC book for your collection. www.abebooks.com is a good site for finding books however the prices are extortionate. US$25 for Octobers Baby ?! The booksellers know that Glen Cook collecting exists and they are charging for it. I got it for US$2 off ebay. Ebay has been a great find for me. At 10:42 3/11/02 -0800, you wrote: >I've got most everything he's done, but I do have to replace a lent copy >(d'oh) of The Fire in his Hands. I got lucky. Jackpot lucky. An eBay >auction of 17 *signed* Cook titles including a numbered copy of Sung in >Blood closed for.... $47. Plus $9 for shipping. > >Sorry guys, but that's my story. I've paid plenty for a couple of titles >and am grimly anticipating the replacement cost for Fire in His Hands, but >I'd say I'm ahead of the game. > >I also have a few of his short stories in the periodicals section of my >library. > >*grin* > >PDMohney@aol.com wrote: > >>In a message dated 11/3/2002 7:24:31 AM Central Standard Time, >>ga@bigpond.net.au writes: >> >>>If you are - how many of you own _Everything_ ? (excluding swap academy). >> >> >> >>I think I have all his stuff. I bought a copy of Sung in Blood from >>Books-A-Million quite a few years ago, when they still could order it - >>though it took months for them to find it - I bought most of the rest of >>his stuff new, and a few of them used. I've gotten a number of his short >>stories from ebay auction, I know there are a few periodicals which >>contain his work which I don't have, but the toughest one, Sung In Blood, >>I do have. >> >>Pete > > > >======================================================================= >To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, >visit . ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tim and Alison Stalley" Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Collecting Date: 03 Nov 2002 18:46:01 -0600 Yes I would consider myself a collector. I have all the books plus numerous copies of the older ones. 2 copies of Sung in Blood. I have owned 4 but sold 2 of them. I just paid about $56 for a copy of Night Voyages #9. I am in the process of collecting all the uncorrected proofs now. I guess you gotta have some addiction. :) ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eric Herrmann Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Collecting Date: 03 Nov 2002 23:01:04 -0700 On Sunday, November 3, 2002, at 06:23 AM, Graham Allen wrote: > how many of you own _Everything_ ? _Everything_ is about 254 unique pieces. There are about 153 novel, 42 short story and 18 omnibus editions worldwide. Add to that 41 potential ARC editions. I have about 150 of that. (No, I don't have Swap Academy. I do have an uncensored, color copy of the cover which is more than enough.) I'm not collecting the uncorrected proofs, but I do have an "A Shadow of All Night Falling" ARC. What I'm missing is on the website under About. > Owning all his stuff is my goal, although this is an especially > difficult task considering I'm in Australia and half his works were > never published here. I've been doing it for about 5 years now and > I've got about 16 books. The other thing is I refuse to read the > dread empire series until I own them all and I only have 4 at the > moment. I'm looking forward to getting stuck in! Don't worry about being in Australia. I've found very helpful people all over the world. You'll just pay a fortune in shipping costs. -- Eric Herrmann ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kisc Kempson" Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Cooks religous reality Date: 04 Nov 2002 11:50:29 -0700 "no atheists in foxholes" comes, I think, from a much simpler idea: A lot of people start begging for it to stop, when the artillery is falling all around them. "Please make it stop, please make it stop oh God make it stop!" ... sometimes they even mean that in a literal, rather than idomatic, way. /Sometimes/, people who have a religious background that they've since forsaken, will say things like "god, I'll go to church every day for the rest of my life you get me through this alive." And sometimes they will even mean that. ..... Have you ever had Big Fucking Shells falling all around you? I haven't. But I've been in plenty of situations where I wanted to beg God to make it stop, stuff that at the time I thought was the end of my life if it didn't stop soon. I can only imagine that your first time in a foxhole while the BFS rain down would be a might frightening. In the meantime, I would also suggest that "no atheists in foxholes" was coined by someone who's faith in god was pretty strong, and who doesn't really understand about not believing in god. My brother is an atheist. My brother is very smart, in a lot of ways. He used to do wierd shit at university, like go back and rework his calculus/physiscs problems to see if he could solve them in fewer steps. He is certain, for reasons that he cannot quite explain to me, that there is no god. I am a religious type. I like to think I'm pretty smart, but I coasted for far too long on "I'm the big brother, they can't compete with me", and that's cutting into my reality later in life. I am confident of God's existence, and there is no reason that I can quite explain to my brother. but the bonus of that is I do understand about being atheist. I can't quite grasp exactly what it means, but I'm pretty open-minded about what it is like to be something other than what I am. (except for an ass-raping member of NAMBLA... did you see last week's L&O:SVU? Good flying hell!) So I know that an atheist in a foxhole might well scream "please god make it stop" idiomatically, or might well scream "fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck" (I'd be most likely, I think, to scream the latter myself), or might just lay there wimpering. Same as a religios person. Of course, some atheists might meditate. Some religious folk might too, or they might pray calmly. Everyone is different, and people that make sweeping statements for or against something like that are really only hog-tieing their own perception of what might really be. > > Religion is one of the things that make Cook's work so > > vivid and real. > > After someone has been exposed to death > > and destruction over and over again, one tends to lose > > the belief that there is a higher power or that that > > higher power cares. > > Yes, I agree on this point: Cook did a good job of persuading me that the > phrase "there are no atheists in foxholes" is most likely > literally incorrect. > In a real foxhole, having just seen his fellow man's head become > torn off by > a piece of flying steel, I wonder if even the most dedicated religious > worshipper of any creed can NOT doubt the existence of his > particular god(s). > I suppose it is in the aftermath of an experience like that when a > "dedicated" worshipper is either reborn (having been made stronger by the > experience) or lost (having been overwhelmed by the experience). > > I am aware that that phrase is mostly used by people to criticize > those who > become "suddenly religious" during trying periods in their lives. But > literally, it probably isn't true all the time. > > Side note: I'm not a religious person because I want to get an eternal > reward, or because I want to avoid eternal damnation, or because > I'm told to > worship. I am religious for a simple reason. I love my God. And I > show it by > being genuinely concerned about others, their welfare, and > working with them > for the common good. > > -Welly > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kisc Kempson" Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Collecting Date: 04 Nov 2002 11:55:38 -0700 This is one of those things I'm going to do when I'm a kajillionaire. You know, after I win the lottery or think of something to invent and sell that you all need, or something. Heh. I buy whatever there is of Black Company and Garret books, and now I'm goign to start looking into the Dread Empire. Only in the last couple weeks have I even heard of it. Hey, does Mr. Cook have a website somewhere? A la David-Drake.com or stormwolf.com or something? Kisc > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Graham Allen > Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 6:24 AM > To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > Subject: (glencook-fans) Collecting > > > Hi All, > > How many of you are actual Glen Cook collectors ? ie you must own > everything he ever did ? > > If you are - how many of you own _Everything_ ? (excluding swap academy). > > How close are you ? Do you own all books, but not magazine short stories > or what ? > > Owning all his stuff is my goal, although this is an especially difficult > task considering I'm in Australia and half his works were never published > here. I've been doing it for about 5 years now and I've got about 16 > books. The other thing is I refuse to read the dread empire > series until I > own them all and I only have 4 at the moment. I'm looking forward to > getting stuck in! > > Cya > Graham > > > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eric Herrmann Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Cooks religous reality Date: 04 Nov 2002 12:05:36 -0700 Alright this whole religious thread refuses to go anywhere productive after many chances and I'm past tired of it. I'm going to start removing those who continue it. -- Eric Herrmann ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Stacey Harris Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Cooks religous reality Date: 04 Nov 2002 15:55:48 -0500 Derrill, I take exception to this :) "He used to do wierd shit at university, like go back and rework his calculus/physiscs problems to see if he could solve them in fewer steps." Not weird--that's what you're supposed to do! Well, if you're a mathematician or a physicist, anyway. Steve, mathematician/physicist PS And just to put this back on-topic: Ever notice that a great deal of Cook's magic in the BC series is pretty much well-meshed with physics? Not the illusions of One-Eye and Goblin, nor the Greater Magicks of the Lady (such as Taking someone); but the flying carpets are nicely physical in operation (once you admit a motive power and levitating force), and the exploding colored balls were not much different from gun-powder. ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kisc Kempson" Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Cooks religous reality Date: 04 Nov 2002 14:12:58 -0700 > Derrill, > > I take exception to this :) Very nicely done, I almost fell for it ;) > > "He used to do wierd shit at university, like go back and rework his > calculus/physiscs problems to see if he could solve them in fewer steps." > > Not weird--that's what you're supposed to do! Well, if you're a > mathematician or a physicist, anyway. He's a radiologist. I suppose that sommat counts. > > Steve, mathematician/physicist THAT is just sick. > > PS > And just to put this back on-topic: Ever notice that a great deal of > Cook's magic in the BC series is pretty much well-meshed with physics? > Not the illusions of One-Eye and Goblin, nor the Greater Magicks of the > Lady (such as Taking someone); but the flying carpets are nicely > physical in operation (once you admit a motive power and levitating > force), and the exploding colored balls were not much different > from gun-powder. > I'm a big fan of authors that use a careful combination of trek-isms and science. Always assuming they don't try to explain the Trek-ism too carefully of course. Then you get into some of the realm of why TNG, Voyager, et al, suck. Drake does something like that in the original Hammer's Slammers book ... he goes into the magnetic alignment of copper ions to explain the powerguns the Slammers use. I dunno of course; maybe a physicist would read that part of the book and say "I know magnetic realignment of copper ions, and you, sir, are no magnetic realignment of copper ions!" or something, but it was right down the pipe of "real" and "not real" that I like. One of the things I REALLY like about Cook's writing is the casual attitude that the "big wizards" have about teaching stuff to other people. There is no "you aren't high enough level" or "trade secret" ... rather, "if it is useful to me that he know how, then I'll show him how. But I'm not showing him any of that stuff, because him knowing that isn't going to futher MY goals." I kind of like that. It makes me think that One Eye, Goblin, and Silence could have been just as big and powerful as any of the Taken, if they'd been willing to pay the price to learn the stuff the Taken managed to learn. I'm sort of assuming that most of the Taken and those high level casters paid some sort of price to learn this stuff... consorting with demons, or something. I remember reading the parts about the Shadowmasters and just shuddering, thinking of the kind of stress they were under, in order to control that sort of power. As an aside, I found it ironic that they chose to call themselves Shadow"masters", because they weren't much more than apprentices, the best of them. I ALSO loved that all the Taken didn't just dissolve and die when their bosses did. That is another aspect of fiction that always bugged me. Derrill ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Graham Allen Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Collecting Date: 05 Nov 2002 07:59:38 +1000 >I have about 150 of that. (No, I don't have Swap Academy. I do have an >uncensored, color Do you think there are any copies still floating around ? >copy of the cover which is more than enough.) I'm not collecting the >uncorrected proofs, but I do have an "A Shadow of All Night Falling" ARC. >What I'm missing is on the website under About. I think I'll stick to english language final editions of novels and short stories. >>Owning all his stuff is my goal, although this is an especially difficult >>task considering I'm in Australia and half his works were never published >>here. I've been doing it for about 5 years now and I've got about 16 >>books. The other thing is I refuse to read the dread empire series until >>I own them all and I only have 4 at the moment. I'm looking forward to >>getting stuck in! > >Don't worry about being in Australia. I've found very helpful people all >over the world. You'll just pay a fortune in shipping costs. Postage is normally the same price as the book! cya ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eric Herrmann Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Collecting Date: 04 Nov 2002 16:03:24 -0700 > Do you think there are any copies still floating around ? I have no idea. Is 30 year old nrop still collectible? You'd need to search the used nrop bookstores. It was printed in San Diego. Maybe that's a good place to start. In talking with Glen about 6 years ago, he said he gave away copies to all his working buddies at the GM plant when it was published. So maybe there's some copies in around St. Louis. It also sounded like maybe he still had some in a box buried in the garage/basement. I don't know for certain if he does or not. Maybe he'd part with one if it was worth his while to dig them out. Instead of everyone asking, is there someone who'll volunteer to ask? > I think I'll stick to english language final editions of novels and > short stories. Well that makes it a lot shorter list. All the novels are easily available as are about half the stories. A few of the stories are just darn near impossible to find, ie Sunrise, Enemy Territory, Sung in Blood, The Waiting Sea, Silverheels, Appointment in Samarkand. I started collecting just the books which wasn't difficult since I started in the 1984. A few years ago I started collecting the short stories, but not very seriously. I had about half of them. Then about two years ago I decided to expand the website to include short stories and then international editions. Suddenly it got expensive. But I got to meet a lot of nice people and test the limits of online translators and postal delivery. Navigating websites in cyrillic isn't as hard as you might think. -- Eric Herrmann ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Stacey Harris Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Cooks religous reality Date: 04 Nov 2002 17:17:09 -0600 Derrill, I'll thank you not to cast Persians at mathematics and physics--or mathematicians and physicists. We read Cook, too, y'know. My impression of the Taken is that, before they were Taken, they were local strong-men, wizards that built themselves up over many decades. But it's hard to tell, since we don't know a whole lot of what they were like before they were Taken, and it's quite possible--likely--they got a lot of their powers after being Taken. For instance: Several of them use flying carpets. Who invented them? Dunno, but the Lady saw to it that they all got to use them; heck, even the Captain managed to pilot one that he stole. Also, I think that more than one used the creeping yellow/green stuff--appeared first up North, then was found in the South. Probably most important of all is the resistance of the Taken to dying: The Limper is just about impossible to put down, even chopped to bits and boiled; Soulcatcher does very well without a head; and any one of them is likely to be dangerous, no matter how dead-looking, unless special precautions are taken (think of One-Eye sewing up all the openings of whoever-it-was in the South). Are they all so death-resistant on their own mettle? I don't think so. Remember the one Taking we get to witness (Whisper, I think): The victim is "introduced" to Death repeatedly by the Lady, and I think we're to assume that the Taking places the wizard in a sort of half-life/half-death state; I guess this makes the subject more suitable as a servitor for the Lady. Is the Lady equally death-resistant? I don't think we see any evidence of that, other than that she had to be put to sleep, not killed, to end the Domination. Maybe that's just Cook's way to humanize her--never show her as having ghastly super-human powers (unlike her sister). But maybe she's just clever enough never to have been put into situations where that would be an issue. Indeed, that is really the Lady's biggest source of power (small-p, not large-P): She's excellent at manipulation, of never being there when the Really Nasty stuff comes down, of insinuating herself into positions of power (and even Power) without anyone who has the capability of trashing her ever realizing it in time. Is that how she came to be the Dominator's consort--was she using him, as he thought he was co-opting his only serious rival? Turned out that way, in the end--and she came back by the same means, seduction of Bomanz (using him as he thought he would be using her). And maybe that's the ultimate reason of why she survives her Naming: It was really her manipulative abilities that were her most important resource, not just her magical abilities. Steve ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Stacey Harris Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Collecting Date: 04 Nov 2002 17:23:37 -0600 Eric, "All the novels are easily available" Hah! Well, maybe if you're willing so pay in the hundred-dollar range. Used to be (just a few years ago!) you could find lots of Garrett books on the book shelves; nothing at all now! In fact, I typically don't see a single Cook on the book shelves in the major outlets--here in his own city, too :( "Is 30 year old nrop still collectible? You'd need to search the used nrop bookstores." Huh? What's that? Steve ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Changeling Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Collecting Date: 04 Nov 2002 17:31:01 -0600 (CST) > "Is 30 year old nrop still collectible? You'd need to > search the used nrop bookstores." > > Huh? What's that? He means pron. *grin* -M ************************************************************************** * * * It's that moment of dawning comprehension that I live for. * * * ************************************************************************** ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kisc Kempson" Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Collecting Date: 04 Nov 2002 16:34:57 -0700 nrop in a mirror, perhaps? Although I have to admit to being unaware of Cook doing any serious x-rated fiction... Kisc Speculating is more fun than waiting for an answer. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Stacey > Harris > Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 4:24 PM > To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Collecting > > > Eric, > > "All the novels are easily available" > > Hah! Well, maybe if you're willing so pay in the hundred-dollar range. > Used to be (just a few years ago!) you could find lots of Garrett books > on the book shelves; nothing at all now! In fact, I typically don't see > a single Cook on the book shelves in the major outlets--here in his own > city, too :( > > "Is 30 year old nrop still collectible? You'd need to > search the used nrop bookstores." > > Huh? What's that? > > Steve > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eric Herrmann Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Collecting Date: 04 Nov 2002 17:36:42 -0700 On Monday, November 4, 2002, at 04:34 PM, Kisc Kempson wrote: > nrop in a mirror, perhaps? Yeah, something like that. I didn't want to set off the mail filters again. > Although I have to admit to being unaware of Cook doing any serious > x-rated fiction... There's probably a website somewhere. Try searching on Yahoo!. Due to dyslexia or something, I thought for years it was titled Swamp Academy. I had no idea it was "different" until talking with him. He didn't seem to be too proud of it. Sort of something he wished people would forget about. I imagine like a lot of things we do when we are young and stupid. -- Eric Herrmann ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Steve Harris Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Collecting Date: 04 Nov 2002 18:47:34 -0600 Eric, This is what you're looking for a volunteer to ask Glen about, to see if he has copies to give away or something? "Sort of something he wished people would forget about." Um, don't think that's what I'd like to chat him up about... Steve ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eric Herrmann Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Collecting Date: 04 Nov 2002 17:58:44 -0700 On Monday, November 4, 2002, at 05:47 PM, Steve Harris wrote: > This is what you're looking for a volunteer to ask Glen about, to see > if > he has copies to give away or something? "Sort of something he wished > people would forget about." Perhaps my memory and characterization is faulty. That's why I thought one person would be better than many. But there are fanatics out there who want everything. > Um, don't think that's what I'd like to chat him up about... Yeah, mathematicians and physicists would never read that sort of thing. :) -- Eric Herrmann ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mokie Subject: (glencook-fans) Samhain, Voodoo Date: 05 Nov 2002 13:08:42 -0600 I'm not continuing that thread (really, I promise), I just wanted to offer up a possible answer here, since I didn't see one in my skimming of the thread itself. > I really wish I could remember why I thought it had to do with Voodoo. I > swear there was some sort of voodoo god or so named similarly to Samhain. Baron Samedhi, most likely. I believe he was a variant of the god of crossroads, and pretty Halloweenish himself, though it's been some time since I read up on Voodoo. That's it, I'll shut up now. ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kisc Kempson" Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) Samhain, Voodoo Date: 05 Nov 2002 12:14:59 -0700 Ah, yes, that's the one. Thankee :) Kisc > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of mokie > Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 12:09 PM > To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com > Subject: (glencook-fans) Samhain, Voodoo > > > I'm not continuing that thread (really, I promise), I just wanted to > offer up a possible answer here, since I didn't see one in my skimming > of the thread itself. > > > I really wish I could remember why I thought it had to do with Voodoo. I > > swear there was some sort of voodoo god or so named similarly > to Samhain. > > Baron Samedhi, most likely. I believe he was a variant of the god of > crossroads, and pretty Halloweenish himself, though it's been some time > since I read up on Voodoo. > > That's it, I'll shut up now. > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Joe G Kushner" Subject: (glencook-fans) Art of the Black Company? Date: 05 Nov 2002 13:36:17 -0600 Has any publisher ever put out a collection of the various covers used for the BC? I know for example, that the Science Fiction book club has collections with different covers than the paperbacks. ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michele Riccio" Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) OT celtic references Date: 05 Nov 2002 13:04:12 -0500 On 2 Nov 2002 at 14:15, Fraser Ronald wrote > I'd be interested in a reference for this. I've heard > of Annwn used as the name of an underworld > > Also, while Annwn has a ruler, he does not have the > same function as a death god. Manannan mac Lir was > both the ruler of Tir na n-Og and a god of weather and > the sea. Also, not really a death god. You're right - I was confusing the place with the person. Arawn was lord of Annwn (also Annwfn also Annuvin). My original reference for this was Lloyd Alexander's "The Book of Three" - and yes, I know there are discrepancies between Alexander's Arawn and the one from traditional Welsh mythology. For more scholarly references I have "Celtic Mythology" by Geddes Grosset which names Arawn as the Welsh lord of the Otherworld (Annwn, or land of the dead) and "The Oxford Dictionary of Celtic Mythology" by James Mackillop which defines the "otherworld" as a place where the dead wait to be reborn. "The Oxford Dictionary of Celtic Mythology" also lists Donn as the Irish god of the dead, residing over Tech Duinn (realm of the dead/house of the dead). I could go on...but this is way off topic. Contact me off list if you want more references. M Michele Riccio mr1@rcosta.com ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Amy Weathers" Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Collecting Date: 05 Nov 2002 17:13:05 -0700 All I have to say about collecting is EBAY, EBAY, EBAY. I find complete sets of the Garret Novels and Black comapny there all the time, as well as many of the other hard to find books. I've also had good luck with the Wierd Book Store online, whose IP address I have currently failed to find. :P Amy ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "don" Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Collecting Date: 05 Nov 2002 19:38:11 -0600 My God Eric. Until reading your post and verifying with the cover on your site I would have bet my soul it was Swamp Academy. The eyes see what they want too I guess... err in this case I guess my eyes just didn't know what they wanted to see.. uhm nevermind. Don "In time, what's deserved always gets served"- COC ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 6:36 PM > On Monday, November 4, 2002, at 04:34 PM, Kisc Kempson wrote: > > > nrop in a mirror, perhaps? > > Yeah, something like that. I didn't want to set off the mail filters > again. > > > Although I have to admit to being unaware of Cook doing any serious > > x-rated fiction... > > There's probably a website somewhere. Try searching on Yahoo!. > > Due to dyslexia or something, I thought for years it was titled Swamp > Academy. I had no idea it was "different" until talking with him. He > didn't seem to be too proud of it. Sort of something he wished people > would forget about. I imagine like a lot of things we do when we are > young and stupid. > > -- > Eric Herrmann > > > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Troy & Sue Lefman Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Collecting Date: 07 Nov 2002 06:27:27 -0600 --------------030501090904060203080709 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Graham Allen wrote: > Hi All, > > How many of you are actual Glen Cook collectors ? ie you must own > everything he ever did ? > > If you are - how many of you own _Everything_ ? (excluding swap > academy). Everything in paperback except for Swap Acadamy, and all major publications except for Swap Acadamy and Sung In Blood. I don't have any magazines. Good luck on getting everything. > > How close are you ? Do you own all books, but not magazine short > stories or what ? > > Owning all his stuff is my goal, although this is an especially > difficult task considering I'm in Australia and half his works were > never published here. I've been doing it for about 5 years now and > I've got about 16 books. The other thing is I refuse to read the > dread empire series until I own them all and I only have 4 at the > moment. I'm looking forward to getting stuck in! > > Cya > Graham > > > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > > --------------030501090904060203080709 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Graham Allen wrote:
Hi All,

How many of you are actual Glen Cook collectors ?  ie you must own everything he ever did ?

If you are - how many of you own _Everything_ ?  (excluding swap academy).
Everything in paperback except for Swap Acadamy, and all major publications except for Swap Acadamy and Sung In Blood.  I don't have any magazines.
Good luck on getting everything.

How close are you ?  Do you own all books, but not magazine short stories or what ?

Owning all his stuff is my goal, although this is an especially difficult task considering I'm in Australia and half his works were never published here.  I've been doing it for about 5 years now and I've got about 16 books.  The other thing is I refuse to read the dread empire series until I own them all and I only have 4 at the moment.  I'm looking forward to getting stuck in!

Cya
Graham



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--------------030501090904060203080709-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Graham Allen Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Collecting Date: 07 Nov 2002 22:48:04 +1000 At 06:27 7/11/02 -0600, you wrote: >>How many of you are actual Glen Cook collectors ? ie you must own >>everything he ever did ? >> >>If you are - how many of you own _Everything_ ? (excluding swap academy). >Everything in paperback except for Swap Acadamy, and all major >publications except for Swap Acadamy and Sung In Blood. I don't have any >magazines. >Good luck on getting everything. Even if it takes me 20 years I'll do it. I collect a few other authors as well and enjoy collecting alot. I've been doing it since I was a teenager. GC however has a bigger range than the others so maybe I've bitten off more than I can chew :) ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit .