From: Mike H. Subject: (glencook-fans) Cook fans Date: 07 Sep 2003 18:46:04 -0400 Hey all, the last time I heard from this Cook fanlist was on August 19, 2002. What have I missed since then? For those who may not remember, I'm the one that posted the analysis of the Taken and the Shadowmasters. I recently dug up a copy of it and the later list of minor corrections, in case someone is curious. Will there be any more Black Company books? ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Childs Subject: (glencook-fans) Lack of news Date: 07 Sep 2003 21:50:45 -0700 (PDT) Mike, There has been no news. No news about the fantasy trilogy that Glen Cook is supposed to be working on and nothing about a new Black Company book that I wish he was working on. Lee Childs ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dave Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Cook fans Date: 08 Sep 2003 15:19:37 -0400 --=======6F2558E8======= Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-48ED6EE1; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hey Mike, I'd be interested in seeing it again. Can you either send to me or post to the list? Thanks, Dave At 06:46 PM 9/7/2003 -0400, you wrote: >Hey all, the last time I heard from this Cook fanlist was on August 19, 2002. > >What have I missed since then? > >For those who may not remember, I'm the one that posted the analysis of the >Taken and the Shadowmasters. I recently dug up a copy of it and the later >list >of minor corrections, in case someone is curious. > >Will there be any more Black Company books? > > >======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > > > >--- >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 8/19/2003 --=======6F2558E8======= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg=cert; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-48ED6EE1 Content-Disposition: inline --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 8/19/2003 --=======6F2558E8=======-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: patnellie@msn.com Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Cook fans Date: 08 Sep 2003 16:49:15 -0700 ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C37629.23703A00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, please post it again... Pat =20 ----- Original Message ----- Wrom: KEDO Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 12:43 PM =20 Hey Mike, I'd be interested in seeing it again. Can you either send to me or post t= o =20 the list? Thanks, Dave At 06:46 PM 9/7/2003 -0400, you wrote: >Hey all, the last time I heard from this Cook fanlist was on August 19, = 2002. > >What have I missed since then? > >For those who may not remember, I'm the one that posted the analysis of = the >Taken and the Shadowmasters. I recently dug up a copy of it and the late= r =20 >list >of minor corrections, in case someone is curious. > >Will there be any more Black Company books? > > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > > > >--- >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 8/19/2003 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 8/19/2003 ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C37629.23703A00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 Yes, ple= ase post it again...
 
Pat 
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 12:43 P= M
To: glencook-fans@lists.xm= ission.com
Subject: Re: (gle= ncook-fans) Cook fans
 
Hey Mike,

I'd be inte= rested in seeing it again. Can you either send to me or post to
the l= ist?

Thanks,
Dave

At 06:46 PM 9/7/2003 -0400, you wrote:=

>Hey all, the last time I heard from this Cook fanlist was on = August 19, 2002.
>
>What have I missed since then?
>>For those who may not remember, I'm the one that posted the analysis= of the
>Taken and the Shadowmasters. I recently dug up a copy of i= t and the later
>list
>of minor corrections, in case someone= is curious.
>
>Will there be any more Black Company books?>
>
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D
>  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archi= ves of this list,
>  visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshf= tr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
>
>
>---
>Incomin= g mail is certified Virus Free.
>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (= http://www.grisoft.com).
>Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - = Release Date: 8/19/2003

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Fr= ee.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Vers= ion: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 8/19/2003
------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C37629.23703A00-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lawrence Jenab" Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Cook fans Date: 08 Sep 2003 19:23:50 -0500 Sure, Mike, I'd like to read your stuff. Is it posted somewhere? Larry ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2003 5:46 PM > Hey all, the last time I heard from this Cook fanlist was on August 19, 2002. > > What have I missed since then? > > For those who may not remember, I'm the one that posted the analysis of the > Taken and the Shadowmasters. I recently dug up a copy of it and the later list > of minor corrections, in case someone is curious. > > Will there be any more Black Company books? > > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Crvett69@aol.com Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Lack of news Date: 11 Sep 2003 12:03:40 EDT --part1_22.3d913325.2c91f6dc_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit do you know if he plans on writing any more of the Garrett books? --part1_22.3d913325.2c91f6dc_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable do you know if he plans o= n writing any more of the Garrett books? --part1_22.3d913325.2c91f6dc_boundary-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Stacey Harris Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Lack of news Date: 11 Sep 2003 13:04:32 -0500 Hi, More Garrett? Dunno. The last book ends with no resolution of some things; but I think he also said, a year ago (at Archon), that it would be the last one. But I've not seen him since last Archon, and I'm not planning on going this year. Steve ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charles Subject: (glencook-fans) Re: Lack of news Date: 11 Sep 2003 15:30:06 -0700 (PDT) > There has been no news. No news about the fantasy trilogy that Glen > Cook is supposed to be working on and nothing about a new Black Company > book that I wish he was working on. As much as I like the Black Company, I'm more interested in his new trilogy. It would be nice to see him do something interesting with [the guy with the head injury], but pretty much everyone else I cared about is gone now, one way or another. And I have mixed feelings about something set in the Domination or whatever...the Books of the South were interesting and entertaining, but I don't think any of the later books are in the same league as the first three, and I'd almost prefer he left the backstory to my imagination. The White Rose has one of the best endings of any story I've read, and The Silver Spike just unraveled it and redid it in a much less satisfactory way. There's such a thing as too much, and it's almost always better to leave people wanting a little more than wishing you'd stopped sooner (ahem, Garrett). I really want to read The Butcher's Apprentice, too. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: maserati@speakeasy.net Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: Lack of news Date: 12 Sep 2003 00:19:57 +0000 To help keep traffic up, I'll just throw in a tidbit I came up with after finishing October's baby (for the umpteenth time) at lunch today: Most fantasy novels are soda pop, Glen Cook is aged single-malt. > -----Original Message----- > From: Charles [mailto:robotchas@yahoo.com] > Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 10:30 PM > To: glencook-fans-digest@lists.xmission.com > Subject: (glencook-fans) Re: Lack of news > > > There has been no news. No news about the fantasy > trilogy that Glen > > Cook is supposed to be working on and nothing about > a new Black Company > > book that I wish he was working on. > > As much as I like the Black Company, I'm more > interested in his new trilogy. > > It would be nice to see him do something interesting > with [the guy with the head injury], but pretty much > everyone else I cared about is gone now, one way or > another. And I have mixed feelings about something set > in the Domination or whatever...the Books of the South > were interesting and entertaining, but I don't think > any of the later books are in the same league as the > first three, and I'd almost prefer he left the > backstory to my imagination. The White Rose has one of > the best endings of any story I've read, and The > Silver Spike just unraveled it and redid it in a much > less satisfactory way. There's such a thing as too > much, and it's almost always better to leave people > wanting a little more than wishing you'd stopped > sooner (ahem, Garrett). > > I really want to read The Butcher's Apprentice, too. > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike H. Subject: (glencook-fans) Reposting of Taken&Shadowmaster Analysis Date: 11 Sep 2003 23:26:26 -0400 Thanks for the update Lee.. I had feared that nothing happened since the= n, = unfortunately I guess I'm right. But hey? Maybe, as we speak, Glen is bus= y = writing at his desk with a letter from Tor as an impetus. For Dave, Pat, Larry, and anyone else interested, here is the analysis, m= inus = the newbie introduction & spoiler space, but plus the later corrections a= nd = some new additions. Remember, it's long and annoying, but to my knowledge= , = clears up much confusion about who faked their deaths, which Taken died a= nd = how, etc., and at the end I even yak about how the original shadowmaster = number = wasn't 4, but 8. If you can't make it through the whole thing, then just = read = the second to last paragraph 1st ("So, the following Taken faked...") & c= ome = back for the rest later. Okay, to keep it simple I'll put the Taken's name and jump right into the specifics about his / her demise, if any. 1) Soulcatcher - Still alive as of "Soldiers Live". 2) The Howler - Was believed to be killed when he crashed into the Tower ("The Black Company" pgs 291-292), but faked that incident or just arranged for his survival. Was confirmed killed by shadows and/or Taglians in "Soldiers Live" pg430.= [See also the note below on the EIGHT Shadowmasters.] 3) The Limper - Survived too many incidents that I can bother to count, but was finally killed in "The Silver Spike" by being boiled, and having the remains buried in a place only godlike powers could apparently access. 4) Stormbringer - Thought to have been killed by Bonegnasher in the first novel p270. It was a ruse, however, and she sneaked south to become Stormshadow, one of the Shadowmasters. Stormbringer was finally killed by Shapeshifter (who had traveled south to do exactly that) after he mauled her. She apparently was wounded seriously by the Company Lance (when Murgen stabbed her before the mauling with Shifter) just like Howler was when Croaker stabbed him. It's obvious that the Lance's magical wounds disabled her and therefore helped Shifter finish the job. In any case, she died atop the tower in the citadel of Dejagore in "Shadow Games". It was confirmed in "Dreams of Steel" that she and Shifter were killed there and their remains were dealt with properly. [See also the note below on the EIGHT Shadowmasters.] 5) Shapeshifter - on p263 in the first novel, the Captain delivers word that Shifter was lost, and that "The circumstances were questionable...". However Shapeshifter actually survived, and sneaked south. He did this because he wanted to settle with Stormbringer (because she had a hand in killing the Hanged Man, a friend that Shifter wanted to rescue, and also supposedly tried to murder Shifter himself, on p286 in "Shadow Games"). H= is = plan worked, and he either killed her or severely maimed her atop the citadel tower. Both of them were finished off because they were too weak to defend themselves. One-Eye sewed their orifices shut and dealt with their remains according to Lady's suggestions which she gave on p290 in "Shadow Games". 6) The Hanged Man - On p227 in the first novel, we see Harden fling his giant sword in the general direction of the three Taken who he had incapacitated temporarily (remember, there were 4 Taken present, but he wasn't fast eno= ugh = for Shifter). Next page we learn that the sword landed through the Hanged Man's skull. Though he was blubbering and collapsing, and although Shapeshifter clearly wanted to help him, Soulcatcher and Stormbringer did not. So, the Hanged Man was not helped and allowed to die. It is very likely that Stormbringer dealt with the Hanged Man's remains afterward. If not, it doesn't matter, since a sword through the brain is enough to kill even the greatest sorcerer. This was mentioned before, but I apologize since I cannot remember the exact reference. Sorcerers can be beheaded and survive, correct? But the brain's actual destruction is something no sorcerer can survive. That is why the Company had Shadowspinner's head as a trophy for awhile; it was stated that the brain was removed and destroyed and therefore posed no danger. Same thing with Kina, when Goblin stabbed her through the brain with the super-spear from One-Eye, as opposed to her heart: I say all this just to reinforce that the Hanged Man is undeniably dead :) 7) Bonegnasher - In the first novel, on p270, we're informed that this man was killed, most likely by Stormbringer, who was herself supposed to be killed then too. Although he is a giant man, I have no trouble believing that Stormbringer could kill him. She could, after all, physically battle Shapeshifter himself (in the forvalaka form, no less!) and give him a run for his money. And since Bonegnasher is never mentioned again, there is no reason to believe he wasn't killed. Besides, Otto and Hagop would have reported it if they didn't find Bonegnasher's body after they exhumed the other Taken's corpses. 8) Nightcrawler - This character supposedly was lost to Rebel action on p279, first novel. However: Otto and Hagop could not find his body (pg 292 "Bleak Seasons"). Which leads me to believe that Nightcrawler was not actually killed there, and was one of the 3 people that were killed according to Uncle Doj. See the note below on the EIGHT Shadowmasters for much more on that. 9) Moonbiter - Supposedly killed during internal feuds (on p279 in the first novel), Moonbiter was lost the same day as the Faceless Man. Since we are told on that same page that Moonbiter and the Faceless Man were not killed by enemy action, it is logical that they skragged each other. [Which is why I personally believe that Moonbiter is the 3rd female Taken, since the Lady said some female Taken "the bitches" were planning to help the Circle because they were really in service to the super-male Dominator, and the Faceless is a "Man".] But, just like Nightcrawler, Otto and Hagop could not find her body (pg 292 "Bleak Seasons"). See the note below on the EIGHT Shadowmasters for much more on this. 10) The Faceless Man/Nameless One - Reportedly killed during internal feuds on p279 in the first novel. Not lost to enemy action. See Moonbiter above for more. And, just like Moonbiter and Nightcrawler, Otto and Hagop could not find his body. [See also the note below on the EIGHT Shadowmasters.] That's my list of the Taken and their demises. Please debate any details in my writing you feel you should. But I have some more before I leave. WHY DID SOME TAKEN DEFY THE LADY IN THE NORTH? In summary: during the battle at the Tower in the first book, some Taken = rebelled in the North and were assumed dead. The Lady says the renegade T= aken = were the females, because they wanted to bring the Dominator back. The La= dy is = only partly correct. First, some of the men rebelled, too. Second, the re= negade = Taken in fact didn't give a crap about whether the Dominator came back or= not: = they instead wanted the secret shadow power deep in the south. We're neve= r told = how they learnt of events in the south, however. Who knows. Bringer(f) cleverly turned on Gnasher(m) in the first book to make the br= ute = think she had switched sides to the Dominator. She killed Gnasher then fa= ked = her death. The Faceless Man and Moonbiter were even more clever. One of t= hem is = likely a female, I suspect Biter simply because the other alternative has= "Man" = in his name. Why do I suspect this? Because if they both wanted to ultima= tely = fake their deaths then run south, why not pretend that Biter, a female, w= as = fighting for the Dominator while the Faceless defended the honor of his = mistress the Lady? We learn they were not killed by rebel action in the f= irst = book, then later learn that their bodies were not even found. So I bet th= at = Biter and the Faceless pretended to kill each other, then hauled ass sout= hward = along with Howler, Bringer, and Nightcrawler. The last of those was the l= east = creative of the bunch of fugitives: Crawler just faked his death during r= ebel = action. As for Howler, he made it appear that one of the women sabotaged = his = flying carpet. His ultra-powerful cloak protected him in that memorable c= rash = into the Tower, however. THE ****EIGHT**** SHADOWMASTERS. Readers of the series know of only 4 Shadowmasters. There were originally= = eight. This is interesting because it finally clears up all the mystery o= f the = disappearing/supposedly-dead Taken from the north: Uncle Doj says (Water Sleeps pg. 150) that Longshadow went with the Nyueng Bao pilgrims and their false key to the shadowgate. Once they got there, they encountered Shadowspinner under the name Ashutosh Yaksha "and a half-dozen other sorcerers waiting." So, that's 6 other people, plus Shadowspinner and Longshadow, which of course makes eight. He then says that "several were fugitives from [the north]". Well, look at the known list of the four Shadowmasters: 1) Longshadow (aka Maricha Manthara Dhumraksha) 2) Shadowspinner (aka Ashutosh Yaksha) 3) Moonshadow (Glen tells us nearly nothing about this guy, save that Soulcatcher saw him transfixed on the Lance and disposed of him and recognized that he was NOT a Taken) 4) Stormshadow (aka Stormbringer; Taken fugitive) Obviously, Moonshadow and Stormbringer/Stormshadow were 2 of the "half-dozen other sorcerers" that Doj mentioned. But what about the other 4? Well, Doj says that Howler was there, and was cruelly injured and fled. Which makes perfect sense, since he made a home with the swamp pirates after fleeing the shadowgate. 5) Howler (Taken fugitive) Now we're left with 3 other missing people. Since Otto and Hagop found no bodies for 3 certain Taken, it is totally logical that these three AWOL sorcerers are the unnamed trio. 6) Nightcrawler (Taken fugitive, like Howler and Bringer) 7) Moonbiter (Taken fugitive) 8) The Faceless Man (aka the Nameless One; Taken fugitive) [So what the frick happened to those three? How did they Finally die, if = at = all? Recall that Uncle Doj said three of the would-be shadowmasters died = under = the shadows' initial onslaught before Longshadow closed the shadowgate wi= th the = power of his own name. Logically, imho, it was these three unfortunate Ta= ken, = who had faked their deaths to trick the Lady and the rebels up North just= to = find their own power in the deep south. The best laid plans...] So, the following Taken faked their deaths to free themselves from the La= dy and = then to gain immense power in the south: the Howler, Stormbringer, = Nightcrawler, Moonbiter, and the Faceless Man. =95 Three early shadowmasters were killed when the shadows overran the or= iginal = eight in a scene we didn't see, but only Uncle Doj described. It's my the= ory, = as described earlier in this post, that those three are the last 3 Taken = from = the list above. =95 The Howler was seriously injured and fled to the swamp pirates furthe= r north. =95 Stormbringer, a survivor of the first shadow crisis in the south and = now = called Stormshadow, a successful shadowmaster, was finally bagged by = Shapeshifter (who traveled south for vengeance for his friend the Hanged = Man, = not to become a shadowmaster like Bringer). A final note about this: I now think Soulcatcher was supposed to join the= five = renegades. Unfortunately she got decapitated en route, and never even mad= e it = south in time for the shadowgate crisis where the three died and Howler g= ot = mauled. I've left her out of all this because she gets enough treatment i= n the = books. The other Taken hardly get any. Please tell me if you agree or not on any points, or if you have some evi= dence = to refute any of my stuff. = -Welly ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ron Spence" Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Re: Lack of news Date: 11 Sep 2003 23:05:47 -0500 I don't know if this is old news - it was new to me. I was looking for a publishing schedule for another author, and found this site: http://scifan.com/writers/cc/CookGlen.asp They list two titles for Glen for his 'unpublished' Dread Empire sequel. "The Cruel Storm" "A Path to Coldness of Heart" One comment listed: "These two books were scheduled but will they ever be published?" Ron ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Ainsworth Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Reposting of Taken&Shadowmaster Analysis Date: 12 Sep 2003 15:12:53 -0500 Thanks for the repost... not sure I ever saw the original. Being an extraordinary picky person, I've made a few notes, comments, etc. At 11:26 PM 9/11/2003 -0400, Mike H. wrote: >5) Shapeshifter - on p263 in the first novel, the >Captain delivers word that Shifter was lost, and that >"The circumstances were questionable...". However >Shapeshifter actually survived, and sneaked south. He >did this because he wanted to settle with Stormbringer >(because she had a hand in killing the Hanged Man, a >friend that Shifter wanted to rescue, and also >supposedly tried to murder Shifter himself, on p286 in "Shadow Games"). Actually, it's pretty clear Lady sent Shifter south in case her plan went wrong, to prepare an escape route for her. Witness the large amount of magical materials he turns over to her. Lady later sends Lisa as an apprentice for Shifter, indicating that she knows where he is. Also, since Stormbringer doesn't cut and run until AFTER Shifter heads south, he can't have been in pursuit of her. >Uncle Doj says (Water Sleeps pg. 150) that Longshadow >went with the Nyueng Bao pilgrims and their false key >to the shadowgate. Once they got there, they >encountered Shadowspinner under the name Ashutosh >Yaksha "and a half-dozen other sorcerers waiting." So, >that's 6 other people, plus Shadowspinner and >Longshadow, which of course makes eight. He then says >that "several were fugitives from [the north]". The problem here is to determine what "several" means. Any number of the Shadowmasters could have been from the same places as Longshadow and Shadowspinner. It seems unlikely to me that "several" means "half." In addition, I see no reason to believe that the Taken versus Taken battles indicated in The Black Company weren't genuine. That suggests that one of the two (Faceless/Moonbiter) was either genuinely killed, or had a genuine feud with the other, making it unlikely they'd have evacuated together. Moonbiter's tactics in combat seem to suggest a rather straightforward mind, so I'd point to the Faceless Man as the likely escapee. However, 'Catcher expected Moonshadow to be one of the Taken. So the question is whether she expected that on the basis of the name, or for more concrete reasons. Nightcrawler, if lost to rebel action, may have been destroyed completely, leaving no body to bury. Is it clear that all of the present Shadowmasters were Shadowmasters when the Gate went the first time? Moonshadow, for example, may have been a lesser sorcerer who took the place of a Shadowmaster who was killed. David ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike H. Subject: (glencook-fans) Taken&Shadowmasters Date: 12 Sep 2003 20:30:32 -0400 >Thanks for the repost... not sure I ever saw the original. This is technically the third posting, I remember putting it up again a previous time, because my original text set off Mr. Harris's email filters for smutty material. I had used the word "hard-core" minus of course the hyphen. Don't want to set off any filters again. If you wanted to see the original post, it's on the archives of this fan website. >Being an extraordinary picky person, I've made a few notes, comments, etc. Great, I like to sort out the little details with fellow fans, but people rarely do this for books other than the classics and the Bestsellers. >Actually, it's pretty clear Lady sent Shifter south in case her plan went >wrong, to prepare an escape route for her. Witness the large amount of >magical materials he turns over to her. Lady later sends Lisa as an >apprentice for Shifter, indicating that she knows where he is. Also, since >Stormbringer doesn't cut and run until AFTER Shifter heads south, he can't >have been in pursuit of her. That's probably the achille's heel of my little gibber about Shifter. ...I forgot some of the sequence of his actions before he killed Stormshadow. For some reason I can't recall much about him giving Lady any magical materials, I'd like to check that out. Where can I find that in the texts? Also, I have been under the impression that Shifter attacked Bringer on his own accord, but that's another spot I may have forgotten: his exact motives. Do you have any references for that part, too, because I wouldn't even know where to start looking. >The problem here is to determine what "several" means. Any number of the >Shadowmasters could have been from the same places as Longshadow and >Shadowspinner. It seems unlikely to me that "several" means "half." "Several" does not mean half; it means five in my theory. Remember : Stormshadow, Howler, Nightcrawler, Moonbiter, and the Faceless Man. Of course, several is even less likely to mean only "two", which of course would be Bringer and Howler who are the only ones we know for sure. So I highly doubt that "any number could have been from" Longshadow's land, because "any" could refer to 6, leaving only 2 who could be Taken. And again, "several" would only be used to describe 2 or even 3 out of 8 by someone who doesn't speak English as a first language, because several by definition refers to "more than two or three" and in common usage, at least every time I hear it, is mostly referring to a near majority. And if half were from the north, Doj would have said half. So, five is the magic number that makes the most sense imo. >In addition, I see no reason to believe that the Taken versus Taken battles >indicated in The Black Company weren't genuine. That suggests that one of >the two (Faceless/Moonbiter) was either genuinely killed, or had a genuine >feud with the other, making it unlikely they'd have evacuated >together. Moonbiter's tactics in combat seem to suggest a rather >straightforward mind, so I'd point to the Faceless Man as the likely >escapee. However, 'Catcher expected Moonshadow to be one of the Taken. So >the question is whether she expected that on the basis of the name, or for >more concrete reasons. The whole description of the end Taken-feuds in book 1 reeked of something fishy. No details were given, no bodies were mentioned, and the circumstances were just downright shady. It was a blind mess of flesh and monsters, and scheming super-mages who had the perfect opportunity to escape. >Nightcrawler, if lost to rebel action, may have been destroyed completely, >leaving no body to bury. That's possible. But the officials back at the Tower would have specified that Nightcrawler's remains were taken and had disappeared into the hands of the enemy. I say this because they were so thorough and honest in their documentation and reports to Otto and Hagop. >Is it clear that all of the present Shadowmasters were Shadowmasters when >the Gate went the first time? Moonshadow, for example, may have been a >lesser sorcerer who took the place of a Shadowmaster who was killed. That is entirely possible... just like my theory, because Glen doesn't specify the details. But I'm considering only characters who have already been introduced and who suddenly left the pages of the first novel. The theory you mentioned requires characters that are unknown, unseen, and entirely unmentioned. Imo, it's a case of Ockham's Razor. Both of our ideas are totally plausible but the one in my old post introduces no variables, and even accounts for the three mysteriously missing bodies of the Taken who could not be accounted for. Besides, the numbers work out perfectly. For my tidy package to work, of course we must assume that the 4 known Shadowmasters were present during the crisis, along with Howler though we know for sure he was there, but it's a logical and safe assumption. That leaves three unnamed wizards. It seems to me that Glen wrote the names of Biter, the Faceless, and Nightcrawler in Bleak Seasons as perfect possibilities for these three missing, yet now dead, wizards. >David ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Changeling Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Taken&Shadowmasters Date: 12 Sep 2003 19:48:52 -0500 (CDT) One of the things that I've notcied about from some of the conversations I've had with Glen and from the interviews that folks've posted here is that Glen frequently left unanswered questions out there intentionally. And that he doesn't necessarily know the answers himself until he needs to. Example: When asked about which of the Taken are male and which female he has said "Oh, I don't know. It never really mattered." Or words to that effect. So while I love to discuss things and toss around theories, it just seems silly to do so when the writer himself never decided what the answers would be. -Matthew On Fri, 12 Sep 2003, Mike H. wrote: > >Thanks for the repost... not sure I ever saw the original. > > This is technically the third posting, I remember putting it up again a > previous time, > because my original text set off Mr. Harris's email filters for smutty > material. > I had used the word "hard-core" minus of course the hyphen. Don't want to set > off any > filters again. If you wanted to see the original post, it's on the archives of > this fan website. > > >Being an extraordinary picky person, I've made a few notes, comments, etc. > > Great, I like to sort out the little details with fellow fans, but people > rarely do this > for books other than the classics and the Bestsellers. > > >Actually, it's pretty clear Lady sent Shifter south in case her plan went > >wrong, to prepare an escape route for her. Witness the large amount of > >magical materials he turns over to her. Lady later sends Lisa as an > >apprentice for Shifter, indicating that she knows where he is. Also, since > >Stormbringer doesn't cut and run until AFTER Shifter heads south, he can't > >have been in pursuit of her. > > That's probably the achille's heel of my little gibber about Shifter. > ...I forgot some of the sequence of his actions before he killed Stormshadow. > For some reason I can't recall much about him giving Lady any > magical materials, I'd like to check that out. Where can I find that > in the texts? Also, I have been under the impression that Shifter > attacked Bringer on his own accord, but that's another spot I may have > forgotten: his exact motives. Do you have any references for that part, too, > because I wouldn't even know where to start looking. > > >The problem here is to determine what "several" means. Any number of the > >Shadowmasters could have been from the same places as Longshadow and > >Shadowspinner. It seems unlikely to me that "several" means "half." > > "Several" does not mean half; it means five in my theory. Remember : > Stormshadow, > Howler, Nightcrawler, Moonbiter, and the Faceless Man. > Of course, several is even less likely to mean only "two", which of course > would > be Bringer and Howler who are the only ones we know for sure. So I highly doubt > that "any number could have been from" Longshadow's land, because "any" could > refer to 6, leaving only 2 who could be Taken. And again, "several" would only > be used > to describe 2 or even 3 out of 8 by someone who doesn't speak English as a > first > language, because several by definition refers to "more than two or three" > and in common usage, at least every time I hear it, is mostly referring to a > near majority. > And if half were from the north, Doj would have said half. So, five is > the magic number that makes the most sense imo. > > >In addition, I see no reason to believe that the Taken versus Taken battles > >indicated in The Black Company weren't genuine. That suggests that one of > >the two (Faceless/Moonbiter) was either genuinely killed, or had a genuine > >feud with the other, making it unlikely they'd have evacuated > >together. Moonbiter's tactics in combat seem to suggest a rather > >straightforward mind, so I'd point to the Faceless Man as the likely > >escapee. However, 'Catcher expected Moonshadow to be one of the Taken. So > >the question is whether she expected that on the basis of the name, or for > >more concrete reasons. > > The whole description of the end Taken-feuds in book 1 reeked of something > fishy. > No details were given, no bodies were mentioned, and the circumstances were > just downright shady. It was a blind mess of flesh and monsters, and > scheming super-mages who had the perfect opportunity to escape. > > >Nightcrawler, if lost to rebel action, may have been destroyed completely, > >leaving no body to bury. > > That's possible. But the officials back at the Tower would have specified that > Nightcrawler's > remains were taken and had disappeared into the hands of the enemy. I say this > because they > were so thorough and honest in their documentation and reports to Otto and > Hagop. > > >Is it clear that all of the present Shadowmasters were Shadowmasters when > >the Gate went the first time? Moonshadow, for example, may have been a > >lesser sorcerer who took the place of a Shadowmaster who was killed. > > That is entirely possible... just like my theory, because Glen doesn't specify > the > details. But I'm considering only characters who have already been introduced > and who suddenly left the pages of the first novel. The theory you mentioned > requires > characters that are unknown, unseen, and entirely unmentioned. Imo, it's a case > of Ockham's > Razor. Both of our ideas are totally plausible but the one in my old post > introduces no > variables, and even accounts for the three mysteriously missing bodies of the > Taken who could not be accounted for. > > Besides, the numbers work out perfectly. For my tidy package to work, of course > we must assume that the 4 known Shadowmasters were present during the crisis, > along with Howler though we know for sure he was there, but it's a logical and > safe assumption. > That leaves three unnamed wizards. > It seems to me that Glen wrote the names of Biter, the Faceless, and > Nightcrawler in > Bleak Seasons as perfect possibilities for these three missing, yet now dead, > wizards. > > >David > > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > ************************************************************************** * * * "It is good to find that one is in agreement with the gods." * * "Howso?" * * "It shows that the gods are wise." * * * ************************************************************************** ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Changeling Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Taken&Shadowmasters Date: 12 Sep 2003 19:48:52 -0500 (CDT) One of the things that I've notcied about from some of the conversations I've had with Glen and from the interviews that folks've posted here is that Glen frequently left unanswered questions out there intentionally. And that he doesn't necessarily know the answers himself until he needs to. Example: When asked about which of the Taken are male and which female he has said "Oh, I don't know. It never really mattered." Or words to that effect. So while I love to discuss things and toss around theories, it just seems silly to do so when the writer himself never decided what the answers would be. -Matthew On Fri, 12 Sep 2003, Mike H. wrote: > >Thanks for the repost... not sure I ever saw the original. > > This is technically the third posting, I remember putting it up again a > previous time, > because my original text set off Mr. Harris's email filters for smutty > material. > I had used the word "hard-core" minus of course the hyphen. Don't want to set > off any > filters again. If you wanted to see the original post, it's on the archives of > this fan website. > > >Being an extraordinary picky person, I've made a few notes, comments, etc. > > Great, I like to sort out the little details with fellow fans, but people > rarely do this > for books other than the classics and the Bestsellers. > > >Actually, it's pretty clear Lady sent Shifter south in case her plan went > >wrong, to prepare an escape route for her. Witness the large amount of > >magical materials he turns over to her. Lady later sends Lisa as an > >apprentice for Shifter, indicating that she knows where he is. Also, since > >Stormbringer doesn't cut and run until AFTER Shifter heads south, he can't > >have been in pursuit of her. > > That's probably the achille's heel of my little gibber about Shifter. > ...I forgot some of the sequence of his actions before he killed Stormshadow. > For some reason I can't recall much about him giving Lady any > magical materials, I'd like to check that out. Where can I find that > in the texts? Also, I have been under the impression that Shifter > attacked Bringer on his own accord, but that's another spot I may have > forgotten: his exact motives. Do you have any references for that part, too, > because I wouldn't even know where to start looking. > > >The problem here is to determine what "several" means. Any number of the > >Shadowmasters could have been from the same places as Longshadow and > >Shadowspinner. It seems unlikely to me that "several" means "half." > > "Several" does not mean half; it means five in my theory. Remember : > Stormshadow, > Howler, Nightcrawler, Moonbiter, and the Faceless Man. > Of course, several is even less likely to mean only "two", which of course > would > be Bringer and Howler who are the only ones we know for sure. So I highly doubt > that "any number could have been from" Longshadow's land, because "any" could > refer to 6, leaving only 2 who could be Taken. And again, "several" would only > be used > to describe 2 or even 3 out of 8 by someone who doesn't speak English as a > first > language, because several by definition refers to "more than two or three" > and in common usage, at least every time I hear it, is mostly referring to a > near majority. > And if half were from the north, Doj would have said half. So, five is > the magic number that makes the most sense imo. > > >In addition, I see no reason to believe that the Taken versus Taken battles > >indicated in The Black Company weren't genuine. That suggests that one of > >the two (Faceless/Moonbiter) was either genuinely killed, or had a genuine > >feud with the other, making it unlikely they'd have evacuated > >together. Moonbiter's tactics in combat seem to suggest a rather > >straightforward mind, so I'd point to the Faceless Man as the likely > >escapee. However, 'Catcher expected Moonshadow to be one of the Taken. So > >the question is whether she expected that on the basis of the name, or for > >more concrete reasons. > > The whole description of the end Taken-feuds in book 1 reeked of something > fishy. > No details were given, no bodies were mentioned, and the circumstances were > just downright shady. It was a blind mess of flesh and monsters, and > scheming super-mages who had the perfect opportunity to escape. > > >Nightcrawler, if lost to rebel action, may have been destroyed completely, > >leaving no body to bury. > > That's possible. But the officials back at the Tower would have specified that > Nightcrawler's > remains were taken and had disappeared into the hands of the enemy. I say this > because they > were so thorough and honest in their documentation and reports to Otto and > Hagop. > > >Is it clear that all of the present Shadowmasters were Shadowmasters when > >the Gate went the first time? Moonshadow, for example, may have been a > >lesser sorcerer who took the place of a Shadowmaster who was killed. > > That is entirely possible... just like my theory, because Glen doesn't specify > the > details. But I'm considering only characters who have already been introduced > and who suddenly left the pages of the first novel. The theory you mentioned > requires > characters that are unknown, unseen, and entirely unmentioned. Imo, it's a case > of Ockham's > Razor. Both of our ideas are totally plausible but the one in my old post > introduces no > variables, and even accounts for the three mysteriously missing bodies of the > Taken who could not be accounted for. > > Besides, the numbers work out perfectly. For my tidy package to work, of course > we must assume that the 4 known Shadowmasters were present during the crisis, > along with Howler though we know for sure he was there, but it's a logical and > safe assumption. > That leaves three unnamed wizards. > It seems to me that Glen wrote the names of Biter, the Faceless, and > Nightcrawler in > Bleak Seasons as perfect possibilities for these three missing, yet now dead, > wizards. > > >David > > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > ************************************************************************** * * * "It is good to find that one is in agreement with the gods." * * "Howso?" * * "It shows that the gods are wise." * * * ************************************************************************** ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Ainsworth Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Taken&Shadowmasters Date: 14 Sep 2003 12:30:47 -0500 At 08:30 PM 9/12/2003 -0400, Mike H. wrote: >That's probably the achille's heel of my little gibber about Shifter. >...I forgot some of the sequence of his actions before he killed Stormshadow. >For some reason I can't recall much about him giving Lady any >magical materials, I'd like to check that out. Where can I find that >in the texts? Also, I have been under the impression that Shifter >attacked Bringer on his own accord, but that's another spot I may have >forgotten: his exact motives. Do you have any references for that part, too, >because I wouldn't even know where to start looking. Shifter attacked Bringer of his own accord, that was his plan, and Lady knew nothing about Bringer's survival to judge by her reaction (Shadow Games 286-7). For the rest, see Chapter 19, especially the note about Shifter's staff being with Lady's things. IIRC she mentions sending Shifter south after that. I also seem to recall her mentioning trying magic and failing after meeting up with him. >"Several" does not mean half; it means five in my theory. Remember : >Stormshadow, >Howler, Nightcrawler, Moonbiter, and the Faceless Man. The problem is that "several" doesn't mean ANYTHING specific. If Glen wanted to be specific, he'd have provided a number. So at best it is suggestive, but not proof. >And if half were from the north, Doj would have said half. So, five is >the magic number that makes the most sense imo. Only if Glen wanted to be precise. Saying "half" is the same as providing a specific number. >The whole description of the end Taken-feuds in book 1 reeked of something >fishy. >No details were given, no bodies were mentioned, and the circumstances were >just downright shady. It was a blind mess of flesh and monsters, and >scheming super-mages who had the perfect opportunity to escape. Yes, but the only concrete evidence we have for such feuding in the books suggests they were genuine and deadly. Shifter and Bringer certainly do a number on one another, and Catcher kills Moonshadow and THEN discovers to her disappointment that he wasn't one of the Taken. I seriously doubt that two Taken could have killed each other without help from a third party, which is where the fishiness comes in. But we have confirmation that, for example, Stormbringer was able to kill Bonegnasher. Lady needed to believe these deaths were real--to do that suggests one Taken settling a score with another and then fleeing. I find it highly unlikely that two Taken who were feuding could be compelled to work together again, much less join each other in this Shadowmaster deal. Ergo, one of Moonbiter and Faceless either died, or escaped in a different direction. > >Nightcrawler, if lost to rebel action, may have been destroyed completely, > >leaving no body to bury. > >That's possible. But the officials back at the Tower would have specified >that >Nightcrawler's >remains were taken and had disappeared into the hands of the enemy. I say >this >because they >were so thorough and honest in their documentation and reports to Otto and >Hagop. To me, thorough and honest involves providing FACTS. They cannot PROVE that Nightcrawler was killed, since they have no access to remains. So he MIGHT not be dead. That doesn't prove that he's alive, either. > >Is it clear that all of the present Shadowmasters were Shadowmasters when > >the Gate went the first time? Moonshadow, for example, may have been a > >lesser sorcerer who took the place of a Shadowmaster who was killed. > >That is entirely possible... just like my theory, because Glen doesn't >specify >the >details. But I'm considering only characters who have already been introduced >and who suddenly left the pages of the first novel. The theory you mentioned >requires >characters that are unknown, unseen, and entirely unmentioned. Imo, it's a >case >of Ockham's >Razor. Both of our ideas are totally plausible but the one in my old post >introduces no >variables, and even accounts for the three mysteriously missing bodies of the >Taken who could not be accounted for. Well, in my mind, Occum's Razor suggests that NONE of the other Shadowmasters were Taken, because we have absolutely no conclusive evidence either way about the remaining Taken, and we have conclusive evidence that many of those working with Longshadow came with him. Given how paranoid he is, I see him as being unlikely to work with a large number of powerful sorcerers, all of whom know each other and seem reasonably chummy, and all of whom are unknown to him. The simple answer as I see it is that there is no way to determine one way or the other. The only way to prove your assertions would be for someone who knew for certain to name the dead Shadowmasters; the only way to disprove it would be to account for these Taken in some other way. >It seems to me that Glen wrote the names of Biter, the Faceless, and >Nightcrawler in >Bleak Seasons as perfect possibilities for these three missing, yet now dead, >wizards. I guess one of the things I like best about Glen's writing is that he's willing to leave the sorts of messy loose ends which always appear in real life and so rarely in literature. The strongest reason I have to reject your theory is that it seems to work out perfectly in just the sort of way that things don't work out in Glen's books, and without the sort of "best fit" in terms of the fiction. I'd prefer to read this as an indeterminate possibility. Might be, might not, and we'll probably never know. I like it better that way, myself... David ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Childs Subject: (glencook-fans) Shapeshifter's magic items Date: 14 Sep 2003 11:03:08 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Shapeshifter always possessed a magic shaft and never gave it to anyone. He also had a suit of armor that Bomanz found. Lee Childs THE BLACK COMPANY page 88 "It looked as tall as a house and half as wide. It wore scarlet bleached by time, moth-eaten, and tattered. It came up the street in a sort of shamble, now fast, now slow. Wild, stringy hair tangled around its head. Its bramble patch of beard was so thick and matted with filth that its face was all but invisible. One pallid, liver-spotted hand clutched a pole of a staff that was a thing of beauty defiled by its bearer???s touch. It was an immensely elongated female body, perfect in every detail." "Someone whispered, 'They say that was a real woman back during the Domination. That say she cheated on him.'" THE BLACK COMPANY page 89 "Shifter???placed the toes of his staff on Raven???s chest.??? ???His wounds formed angry red scar tissue that faded to white old scars in minutes." THE BLACK COMPANY page 90 "He had fixed everybody. It was hard to stay terrified of a guy who would do that for your outfit." THE BLACK COMPANY page 263 "[The Captain said,] 'Word is, we lost Shifter last night.'" "The circumstances were questionable." SHADOW GAMES page 123 "He leaned on a glowing staff that was an elongated, improbably thin female body perfect in every detail." "He pointed the staff across the river. A hundred foot splash of oily fire boiled up amidst the cypress." "The screams of the pirates became lost in the flames." THE WHITE ROSE page 60 [Flashback to Bomanz's time] "Bomanz limped over, watched Stancil brush loose soil off a perfectly preserved breastplate. An ornate ornament in silver bossed its corner." "[Bomanz said,] 'That half-man, half beast design. That???s Shapeshifter.'" "Stancil had recovered a gauntlet and uncovered part of a greave." THE WHITE ROSE page 76 [Flashback to Bomanz???s time] "[Bomanz said,] 'The Monitor confiscated the best. We had Shapeshifter???s armor." ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Dalgleish Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Reposting of Taken&Shadowmaster Analysis Date: 15 Sep 2003 08:19:17 -0600 It is pretty clear that Soulcatcher was a mistress of the Dominator (her statement) -- does that make her a dominatrix ;-} I think it was her plan to awaken the Dominator because she was a favorite, and because she envied the Lady her marriage. She did not actually acquire her deep skill over shadow until she invaded the tower and the brain of a shadow master. On Thursday, September 11, 2003, at 09:26 PM, Mike H. wrote: > A final note about this: I now think Soulcatcher was supposed to join > the five > renegades. Unfortunately she got decapitated en route, and never even > made it > south in time for the shadowgate crisis where the three died and > Howler got > mauled. ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Ainsworth Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Reposting of Taken&Shadowmaster Analysis Date: 15 Sep 2003 11:59:03 -0500 At 08:19 AM 9/15/2003 -0600, Bob Dalgleish wrote: >It is pretty clear that Soulcatcher was a mistress of the Dominator (her >statement) -- does that make her a dominatrix ;-} I think it was her plan >to awaken the Dominator because she was a favorite, and because she envied >the Lady her marriage. She did not actually acquire her deep skill over >shadow until she invaded the tower and the brain of a shadow master. Lady speculates in TBC that Catcher was running a game on both her and the Dominator, using him and his threat to dispose of Lady and the other Taken. After that she could have replaced Lady as she later attempts to do in the Books of the South. Given our later insights into Soulcatcher's character, it looks to me like she may have had a number of plans running and was just going to go with the one which made the most sense, or seemed the most amusing. David ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike H. Subject: (glencook-fans) plot theories Date: 15 Sep 2003 20:50:49 -0400 > Yes, but the only concrete evidence we have for such feuding in the books > suggests they were genuine and deadly. Shifter and Bringer certainly do a > number on one another, and Catcher kills Moonshadow and THEN discovers to > her disappointment that he wasn't one of the Taken. That is entirely correct, for those two instances. Yet, we know absolutely nothing about the feud that occurred between The Faceless Man and Moonbiter, so it could very well have been simply a rouse, and an effective one, at that. My primary reason for thinking they staged their deaths is due to 1. there were no bodies and 2. they were not involved in enemy action at the time of their supposed deaths. I have no intention of trying to persuade you or others to believe this; I'm just trying to verify my theory as a realistic possibility. > I seriously doubt that two Taken could have killed each other without help > from a third party, which is where the fishiness comes in. But we have > confirmation that, for example, Stormbringer was able to kill > Bonegnasher. Lady needed to believe these deaths were real--to do that > suggests one Taken settling a score with another and then fleeing. Don't forget what happened to Shifter. After he overpowered a fellow Taken, he was bagged by bystanders. Considering that Moonbiter and the Faceless had an army of each one's own, it's totally possible to the Lady that one killed the other but was soon overpowered by the dead Taken's army. Either way, she thought they were both dead. > I find it highly unlikely that two Taken who were feuding could be > compelled to work together again, much less join each other in this > Shadowmaster deal. Ergo, one of Moonbiter and Faceless either died, or > escaped in a different direction. But I never stated that their feud was ever real. Which means, to repeat, their feud was set up. Therefore, the fishiness can be explained like this: those two Taken both wanted to leave the Lady, along with Howler and perhaps Nightcrawler to head south, so they set up a fake battle amid the chaos. The result was simple. The Lady, as well as the rebels, were tricked into believing both were killed. But they just ran south with Bringer, and Howler, and etc. > To me, thorough and honest involves providing FACTS. They cannot PROVE > that Nightcrawler was killed, since they have no access to remains. So he > MIGHT not be dead. That doesn't prove that he's alive, either. Yep. These are all just possibilities. > Well, in my mind, Occum's Razor suggests that NONE of the other > Shadowmasters were Taken, because we have absolutely no conclusive evidence > either way about the remaining Taken, and we have conclusive evidence that > many of those working with Longshadow came with him. Given how paranoid he > is, I see him as being unlikely to work with a large number of powerful > sorcerers, all of whom know each other and seem reasonably chummy, and all > of whom are unknown to him. He became insanely paranoid after he was forced to use his name to seal the shadowgate. Unless there is a text reference I missed, I can't think of a reason for him to have been paranoid all along. Remember Longshad's story: the shadowgate crisis caused him to become so troubled; that was pretty much the central reason for the downfall of that character. Also, can you tell me where I can read the "conclusive evidence that many of those working with Longshadow came with him"? I don't remember any other real names besides his and Shadowspinner, and I cannot think of another person from his land except Moonshadow, & even the latter I'm not sure is from Longshadow's land. Unless you have a reference, "several" may still very well mean five out of eight. > The simple answer as I see it is that there is no way to determine one way > or the other. The only way to prove your assertions would be for someone > who knew for certain to name the dead Shadowmasters; the only way to > disprove it would be to account for these Taken in some other way. Of course! These are just possible explanations for the unknown characters. All I'm looking for are holes I missed to make my theory no longer a possible explanation. I never tried to persuade anyone, or even look into whether other possibilities could arise from the same references. > I guess one of the things I like best about Glen's writing is that he's > willing to leave the sorts of messy loose ends which always appear in real > life and so rarely in literature. The strongest reason I have to reject > your theory is that it seems to work out perfectly in just the sort of way > that things don't work out in Glen's books, and without the sort of "best > fit" in terms of the fiction. I'd prefer to read this as an indeterminate > possibility. Might be, might not, and we'll probably never know. I like > it better that way, myself... I totally understand that perspective, and I too enjoy all the loose threads. These two Particular threads in my mind however were so close and so similar, that I just "re-connected" them into one cord. I would never tie up all Glen's loose ends & take the magic from his work, but this particular one (which of course is simply one of many) to me was just screaming to be solved, or at least theorized about... even the numbers add up! For me, that means "omen" because I've never been a math person. So for ME to notice a consistency in a plot that solves two minor mysteries which also actually "add up", with no other conclusive evidence as of yet to poke a hole, I'm still sure it is a valid, even likely, possibility. > David Welly ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) plot theories Date: 15 Sep 2003 19:08:35 -0600 > > >Well, in my mind, Occum's Razor suggests that NONE of the other > > You're using Occam's Razor in an arguement about characters in a Glen Cook book, and more specifically regarding the Taken. With regards to the Taken, one assumes that the simple answer is all but /never/ the correct one. Kisc ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Ainsworth Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) plot theories Date: 15 Sep 2003 20:34:51 -0500 At 08:50 PM 9/15/2003 -0400, Mike H. wrote: > > Yes, but the only concrete evidence we have for such feuding in the books > > suggests they were genuine and deadly. Shifter and Bringer certainly do a > > number on one another, and Catcher kills Moonshadow and THEN discovers to > > her disappointment that he wasn't one of the Taken. > >That is entirely correct, for those two instances. >Yet, we know absolutely nothing about the feud that >occurred between The Faceless Man and Moonbiter, so >it could very well have been simply a rouse, and an >effective one, at that. My primary reason for >thinking they staged their deaths is due to >1. there were no bodies and >2. they were not involved in enemy action at the >time of their supposed deaths. I have no intention >of trying to persuade you or others to believe this; >I'm just trying to verify my theory as a realistic possibility. The trouble is that Lady would have needed to accept the deaths as real. She had every reason to believe that Howler was dead--she clearly felt he was loyal, given the missions she assigned to him, and the circumstances of his death did not invite close examination (who could have figured he'd made a teeny little carpet for himself). Similarly, I infer that the other feuds in operation reflect past history. I don't think it's impossible, it just seems unlikely. > > I seriously doubt that two Taken could have killed each other without help > > from a third party, which is where the fishiness comes in. But we have > > confirmation that, for example, Stormbringer was able to kill > > Bonegnasher. Lady needed to believe these deaths were real--to do that > > suggests one Taken settling a score with another and then fleeing. > >Don't forget what happened to Shifter. After he >overpowered a fellow Taken, he was bagged by >bystanders. Considering that Moonbiter and the >Faceless had an army of each one's own, it's >totally possible to the Lady that one killed >the other but was soon overpowered by the dead >Taken's army. Either way, she thought they were both dead. That was only possible because 'Catcher had weakened both Shifter and Stormshadow. Plus, the people involved actually had some idea of what extreme measures to take to ensure they stayed dead. I'd think that none of the Taken would have wanted their troops to know what needed to happen to kill them. Nor is there any mention of one Taken being killed by conventional forces--it's presented as "They killed each other," which does not fit the scenario you present. >But I never stated that their feud was ever real. >Which means, to repeat, >their feud was set up. Therefore, the fishiness can be explained like this: >those two Taken both wanted to leave the Lady, along with Howler and >perhaps Nightcrawler to head south, so they set up a fake battle amid the >chaos. The result was simple. The Lady, as well as the rebels, were tricked >into believing both were killed. But they just ran south with Bringer, and >Howler, and etc. Is it possible? Sure. Does it seem likely? I'd say not. The more people involved in such a conspiracy, the more likely it will be exposed. As I read the stories, 'Catcher followed the other Taken south. 'Shifter was sent south by Lady. 'Bringer went south as part of the Shadowmaster thing. Howler's involvement is unclear but there's no evidence he coordinated his escape with Stormbringer. He may have known about the Shadowgate, or he may have gotten dragged in at some later stage (that seems to keep happening to him...). >He became insanely paranoid after he was forced to use his name >to seal the shadowgate. Unless there is a text reference I missed, >I can't think of a reason for him to have been paranoid all along. ALL powerful sorcerers in the Black Company series are paranoid. (Actually, that's true in the Dread Empire series as well.) That's what scares everyone in Soldiers Live about Tobo. He's moving more and more towards those qualities. I think it entirely possible that the single-minded pursuit of sorcery actually produces such an effect. Also, can you tell me where I can >read the "conclusive evidence that many of those working with >Longshadow came with him"? I don't remember any other real names >besides his and Shadowspinner, and I cannot think of another person >from his land except Moonshadow, & even the latter I'm not sure >is from Longshadow's land. Came with him does not equal from his land. But we know he came through the gate with followers. See Soldiers Live for details; I don't have time to look up the specific page references right now. >I totally understand that perspective, and I too enjoy all the >loose threads. These two Particular threads in my mind >however were so close and so similar, that I just "re-connected" >them into one cord. I would never tie up all Glen's loose ends >& take the magic from his work, but this particular one >(which of course is simply one of many) to me was just >screaming to be solved, or at least theorized about... >even the numbers add up! For me, that means "omen" because >I've never been a math person. So for ME to notice a consistency >in a plot that solves two minor mysteries which also actually "add up", >with no other conclusive evidence as of yet to poke a hole, >I'm still sure it is a valid, even likely, possibility. Well, among other things I have been a math person... and part of why I keep coming back to Glen's work is that it's hard to add everything up. A lot of fantasy is too easy to predict, and too many series depend upon characters being dumb as posts. I've rarely had characters in books think of possibilities I hadn't, but this happens with some regularity in Glen's writing. What's even more exciting to me is that sometimes they think up brilliant theories which match all the known facts, and they're dead wrong. (See Garrett, frequently.) "Digging up the bodies" to see how many Taken were still running around is presented as a red herring when we hear the results. If Glen continues the series that might change, but it's still a red herring right now. So--interesting speculation, but the evidence, in my eyes, makes it unlikely. David ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Ainsworth Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) plot theories Date: 15 Sep 2003 20:38:55 -0500 At 07:08 PM 9/15/2003 -0600, Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert wrote: >You're using Occam's Razor in an arguement about characters in a Glen Cook >book, and more specifically regarding the Taken. > >With regards to the Taken, one assumes that the simple answer is all but >/never/ the correct one. Sometimes. Sometimes it is. Shifter's motives, for example, tend to be pretty straightforward. It's just that we can't be sure what they are at a given moment. We know nothing at all about the Faceless Man. We know next to nothing about Nightcrawler. We know a tiny bit about how Moonbiter handles his/her troops in the battle at Charm. We can't even be sure which one of them is the female, though Moonbiter looks like the obvious choice. So we can't tell if the easiest solution is the best fit for the situation. That's exactly my point. Anyone interested in turning the discussion to the question of history? What shapes history in Cook's novels? David ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Llaneza Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) plot theories Date: 15 Sep 2003 19:39:01 -0700 "Three people can keep a secret if two are dead" ... and their souls destroyed and the evidence confused. David Ainsworth wrote: > > Is it possible? Sure. Does it seem likely? I'd say not. The more > people involved in such a conspiracy, the more likely it will be exposed. > > -- We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too. http://www.cs.umb.edu/jfklibrary/j091262.htm ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BaronetCorvu@cs.com Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) plot theories Date: 16 Sep 2003 09:18:19 EDT --part1_189.1ec40f81.2c98679b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/15/2003 8:46:13 PM Central Standard Time, dbainswo@students.wisc.edu writes: > At 08:50 PM 9/15/2003 -0400, Mike H. wrote: > >>Yes, but the only concrete evidence we have for such feuding in the books > >>suggests they were genuine and deadly. Shifter and Bringer certainly do a > >>number on one another, and Catcher kills Moonshadow and THEN discovers to > >>her disappointment that he wasn't one of the Taken. > > > But everyone seems to be forgetting that while Soulcatcher discovered that Moonshadow was not a member of the Taken, she DID recognize him. She knew who he was. This seems to jive completely with Lady's theory that the missing/unknown Shadowmasters were not Taken, but rather members of the Circle of Eighteen who ran south rather than be killed at Charm. It is stated several times that the Circle was never fully accounted for after the battle. I also find it hard, if not impossible, to believe that more than two Taken could ever do anything together without backstabbing going on. >That is entirely correct, for those two instances. >Yet, we know absolutely nothing about the feud that >occurred between The Faceless Man and Moonbiter, so >it could very well have been simply a rouse, and an >effective one, at that. My primary reason for >thinking they staged their deaths is due to >1. there were no bodies and >2. they were not involved in enemy action at the >time of their supposed deaths. I have no intention >of trying to persuade you or others to believe this; >I'm just trying to verify my theory as a realistic possibility. My theory has always been that these two faked their own deaths and ran off to some other far off part of the world to set themselves up as mini-dominators. --part1_189.1ec40f81.2c98679b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 9/15/2003 8:46:13 PM Central Standa= rd Time, dbainswo@students.wisc.edu writes:
At 08:50 PM 9/15/2003 -0400, Mi= ke H. wrote:
>>Yes, but the only concrete evidence we have for such feuding in the=20= books
>>suggests they were genuine and deadly. Shifter and Bringer certainly= do a
>>number on one another, and Catcher kills Moonshadow and THEN discove= rs to
>>her disappointment that he wasn't one of the Taken.
>


But everyone seems to be forgetting that while Soulcatcher discovered that M= oonshadow was not a member of the Taken, she DID recognize him. She knew who= he was.  This seems to jive completely with Lady's theory that the mis= sing/unknown Shadowmasters were not Taken, but rather members of the Circle=20= of  Eighteen who ran south rather than be killed at Charm.  It is=20= stated several times that the Circle was never fully accounted for after the= battle.  I also find it hard, if not impossible, to believe that more=20= than two Taken could ever do anything together without backstabbing going on= .

>That is entirely correct, for those two instances.
>Yet, we know absolutely nothing about the feud that
>occurred between The Faceless Man and Moonbiter, so
>it could very well have been simply a rouse, and an
>effective one, at that. My primary reason for
>thinking they staged their deaths is due to
>1. there were no bodies and
>2. they were not involved in enemy action at the
>time of their supposed deaths. I have no intention
>of trying to persuade you or others to believe this;
>I'm just trying to verify my theory as a realistic possibility.

My theory has always been that these two faked their own deaths and ran off=20= to some other far off part of the world to set themselves up as mini-dominat= ors.

 --part1_189.1ec40f81.2c98679b_boundary-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BaronetCorvu@cs.com Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) plot theories Date: 16 Sep 2003 09:33:31 EDT --part1_114.28bb958c.2c986b2b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/15/2003 8:46:03 PM Central Standard Time, dbainswo@students.wisc.edu writes: > We know nothing at all about the Faceless Man. We know next to nothing > about Nightcrawler. We know a tiny bit about how Moonbiter handles his/her > troops in the battle at Charm. We can't even be sure which one of them is > the female, though Moonbiter looks like the obvious choice. > I used to think the third female was Moonbiter, but upon reflection I think it is Nightcrawler. Why? 1. In Cook's worlds female commanders tend to lead with cunning and guile, not brute force. The glimpse we had of Moonbiter's leadership showed him using his troops with brute force and ferocity. 2. The (original) female Taken seem to have been the REALLY powerful sorcerers. The Lady was a better sorcerer than the Dominator, but he had more raw force to his magic. Croaker states that he thought that Stormbringer was the most powerfull sorcerer of the Taken that he had seen, but that people more familier with all of them feared Soulcatcher even more. Shapeshifter was a one trick pony. The Limper was powerfull but made mistakes frequently. Bonegnasher seems to be more of a general/leader/king first and sorcerer second. The company troops who were in battle with Nightcrawler were so terrified by the battle that they wouldn't tell Croaker about it. This makes me think that Nightcrawler must be one of the most badass sorcerers of all the taken, like, well, Stormbringer and Soulcatcher. 3. A more proper tranlsation of Moonbiter's name was Moondog. I can't imagine any woman having "dog" in a name that she chose for herself. Michael W Sweet --part1_114.28bb958c.2c986b2b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 9/15/2003 8:46:03 PM Central Standa= rd Time, dbainswo@students.wisc.edu writes:
We know nothing at all about th= e Faceless Man.  We know next to nothing
about Nightcrawler.  We know a tiny bit about how Moonbiter handles his= /her
troops in the battle at Charm.  We can't even be sure which one of them= is
the female, though Moonbiter looks like the obvious choice.


I used to think the third female was Moonbiter, but upon reflection I think=20= it is Nightcrawler. Why?

1. In Cook's worlds female commanders tend to lead with cunning and guile, n= ot brute force.  The glimpse we had of Moonbiter's leadership showed hi= m using his troops with brute force and ferocity.

2. The (original) female Taken seem to have been the REALLY powerful sorcere= rs.  The Lady was a better sorcerer than the Dominator, but he had more= raw force to his magic.  Croaker states that he thought that Stormbrin= ger was the most powerfull sorcerer of the Taken that he had seen, but that=20= people more familier with all of them feared Soulcatcher even more. Shapeshi= fter was a one trick pony. The Limper was powerfull but made mistakes freque= ntly. Bonegnasher seems to be more of a general/leader/king first and sorcer= er second.  The company troops who were in battle with Nightcrawler wer= e so terrified by the battle that they wouldn't tell Croaker about it. = This makes me think that Nightcrawler must be one of the most badass sorcer= ers of all the taken, like, well, Stormbringer and Soulcatcher.

3. A more proper tranlsation of Moonbiter's name was Moondog.  I can't=20= imagine any woman  having "dog" in a name that she chose for herself.
Michael W Sweet --part1_114.28bb958c.2c986b2b_boundary-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Stacey Harris Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) plot theories Date: 16 Sep 2003 12:51:40 -0500 Hi, all, Have I been missing posts? I haven't seen anything on this list in months, I think. Steve ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BaronetCorvu@cs.com Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) plot theories Date: 16 Sep 2003 14:53:42 EDT --part1_ca.21d68f48.2c98b636_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/16/2003 12:53:49 PM Central Standard Time, harrissg@slu.edu writes: > > Hi, all, > > Have I been missing posts? > > I haven't seen anything on this list in months, I think. > > Steve > There have been a dozen or messages concerning showmasters, Taken, which were which, etc, over the last week or so. Michael W Sweet --part1_ca.21d68f48.2c98b636_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 9/16/2003 12:53:49 PM Central Stand= ard Time, harrissg@slu.edu writes:

Hi, all,

Have I been missing posts?

I haven't seen anything on this list in months, I think.

Steve


There have been a dozen or messages concerning showmasters, Taken, which wer= e which, etc, over the last week or so.

Michael W Sweet --part1_ca.21d68f48.2c98b636_boundary-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Axemaster2001@aol.com Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) plot theories Date: 16 Sep 2003 16:33:14 EDT --part1_1e9.fb61ccd.2c98cd8a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/16/2003 9:36:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, BaronetCorvu@cs.com writes: > The Lady was a better sorcerer than the Dominator, but he had more raw > force to his magic Interesting debate going on. However, I dont think this comment is true. Why else would Lady do everythign she could to keep him down? Why fear him breaking free, and admit to Croaker that if he was freed he would make a new empire and no one could oppose him. The Dominator was much more powerful than any of the taken or Lady. --part1_1e9.fb61ccd.2c98cd8a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 9/16/2003 9:36:03 AM Eastern= Standard Time, BaronetCorvu@cs.com writes:

The Lady was a better sorcerer than the Dominator, but he h= ad more raw force to his magic


Interesting debate going on.= However, I dont think this comment is true. Why else would Lady do everythi= gn she could to keep him down? Why fear him breaking free, and admit to Croa= ker that if he was freed he would make a new empire and no one could oppose=20= him. The Dominator was much more powerful than any of the taken or Lady.&nbs= p;  

--part1_1e9.fb61ccd.2c98cd8a_boundary-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Win Barker Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) plot theories Date: 16 Sep 2003 13:42:56 -0700 (PDT) --0-1674154395-1063744976=:59576 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii How about we say that the Lady was more subtle and cunning in her use of magic whereas The Dominator was merely a bruce force sorceror? Axemaster2001@aol.com wrote:In a message dated 9/16/2003 9:36:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, BaronetCorvu@cs.com writes: The Lady was a better sorcerer than the Dominator, but he had more raw force to his magic Interesting debate going on. However, I dont think this comment is true. Why else would Lady do everythign she could to keep him down? Why fear him breaking free, and admit to Croaker that if he was freed he would make a new empire and no one could oppose him. The Dominator was much more powerful than any of the taken or Lady. Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --0-1674154395-1063744976=:59576 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
How about we say that the Lady was more subtle and cunning in her use of magic whereas The Dominator was merely a bruce force sorceror?

Axemaster2001@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 9/16/2003 9:36:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, BaronetCorvu@cs.com writes:

The Lady was a better sorcerer than the Dominator, but he had more raw force to his magic


Interesting debate going on. However, I dont think this comment is true. Why else would Lady do everythign she could to keep him down? Why fear him breaking free, and admit to Croaker that if he was freed he would make a new empire and no one could oppose him. The Dominator was much more powerful than any of the taken or Lady.   

Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software --0-1674154395-1063744976=:59576-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Ainsworth Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) plot theories Date: 17 Sep 2003 12:01:02 -0500 At 04:33 PM 9/16/2003 -0400, Axemaster2001@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 9/16/2003 9:36:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, >BaronetCorvu@cs.com writes: > >>The Lady was a better sorcerer than the Dominator, but he had more raw >>force to his magic > > >Interesting debate going on. However, I dont think this comment is true. >Why else would Lady do everythign she could to keep him down? Why fear him >breaking free, and admit to Croaker that if he was freed he would make a >new empire and no one could oppose him. The Dominator was much more >powerful than any of the taken or Lady. I think it's a distinction between subtlety and brute force. Or perhaps, the difference between playing the drums and beating holes in the floor with a mallet. Then again, we do get to see Soulcatcher eventually use both kinds of magic, though she depends more on brute force when there's nobody around powerful enough to oppose her. We also find out that the Dominator had several rather subtle plots running in order to free himself. Without the intervention of the Company, the whole Castle seed plot might well have worked for him. Perhaps all we really know is that Lady was much better at tricking the Dominator than he was at tricking her... David ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Ainsworth Subject: (glencook-fans) SFBC and Garrett, PI Date: 24 Sep 2003 15:30:48 -0500 The Sci Fi Book Club's omnibus edition, Garrett, P.I., is presented listed as this week's number 10 best seller. Let's hope that's a sign of continued success. The more the merrier. David ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Childs Subject: (glencook-fans) Moonshadow's demesnes Date: 26 Sep 2003 20:48:08 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Folks, Did we ever learn where Moonshadow's demesnes was? Stormshadow was in Stromgard, Shadowspinner was in Shadowlight, and Longshadow was in Shadowcatch. I was unable to find anything for Moonshadow. Lee Childs ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit .