From: owner-glencook-fans-digest@lists.xmission.com (glencook-fans-digest) To: glencook-fans-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: glencook-fans-digest V1 #3 Reply-To: glencook-fans-digest Sender: owner-glencook-fans-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-glencook-fans-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk glencook-fans-digest Monday, August 7 2000 Volume 01 : Number 003 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 12:35:09 EDT From: CookReader@aol.com Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL editing (no spoilers) In a message dated 8/5/00 6:57:17 PM, sfelice@getty.edu writes: >Supposedly, there are still humans proofreading and copy-editing these >books before they're typeset. But who knows what goes on in those publishing >houses now. As I mentioned earlier, it's been something I've been noticing >more and more of lately. I noticed it MANY times throughout the book Prophecy >that I just finished reading. And it really annoyed me. It doesn't change >how well you enjoy the story, but it's like watching a movie and having >someone in the corner talking. It pulls you out of the moment and makes >you realize you're just reading a book/watching a movie. There's getting to be a terrible compression in the publishing bussines. Look on the Tor website. They address the fact that a book like Jordan's new one will go out the door a nano-second after they can get it to go. They are not sitting on manuscripts, keeping them from the public that wants them. Seems to me that they should hold 'em a little while longer. :) There are also like 19 people working at Tor. >I'm beginning to think like you, where I'm going to start complaining when >I see these errors pop up. I can forgive one or two. That's human error. > But when you get up to 10, 20, 50, 100. That's just lazy. Well, I wasn't really going to complain. Just point 'em out to improve the product. christopher.... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 12:50:11 -0500 From: "Richard Gruver" Subject: (glencook-fans) Don't want to start My amazon order arrived on Monday and SL is still sitting on my table unread. I know if I start reading it I will consume it wolfishly and then it will be over, and I really don't want it to be over. On another topic I don't think TOR is doing much to push sales on this book. The major chains apparently don't think it will sell. I was in the Barnes & Noble in downtown Fort Worth last night and noticed that they only had one copy on the shelves. I commented to the cashier that they must have sold a lot of them to be down to only one already. Out of curiosity she looked it up in the computer and they had only ordered three copies of the book from the publisher. Richard ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 17:28:00 -0500 From: "Jordan Raney" Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL (spoilers) > Quite the contrary. I read the last words, put the book down and > was totally satisfied. I was really worried that after all the years of > wondering about the fates of Booboo et al I'd get this book then be > disappointed. But I wasn't. > > Yes I was "sad" when particular characters died - and some of the > deaths were a bit anti-climatic (along the lines of - 'oh, and he's > dead too, onto the next chapter'). Overall I'm happy - it ended well. > I was really glad it came full circle and Croaker was back in the > narrator's seat. This is also the feeling I had. I was perfectly "satisfied" when I finished it. > As for Khatovar - I liked the way it was handled. All through the > books of the South Croaker was told he'd be disappointed if he ever > got there. They were right. Khatovar was a bust. It was a ploy to > get the Black Company in place for Shivetya's plans. I didn't have a problem with the way he handled Khatovar either. I might have been more disappointed if Water Sleeps hadn't been the way it was...but in Water Sleeps I remember that everyone went into the Land of Unknown Shadows thinking they'd never be able to get to Khatovar because its "gate" was broken. I was very disappointed when I read that, but when I picked up Soldier's Live, I did so with the notion in my head that they'd never be able to get there anyway, so I was pleasantly surprised when they figured out how to "fix" gates. JR ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2000 09:47:13 EDT From: WinB@aol.com Subject: (glencook-fans) SL Sequel (spoilers) I've finished the book and read quite a few of your comments. I whole-heartedly agree that Cook wrapped things up nicely with Croaker. Moving forward, I don't think it would be appropriate to have a sequel directly related to the Company. "In those days the Company..." just doesn't fit anymore. However, think about this. Croaker mentions that Shivetya started the whole thing after the battle of the Barrowlands, laying his seed of thought that would eventually allow him to "die." Now Shivetya occupies Croaker's body and we can assume that Croaker has all of the golem's former powers. Croaker knows what is happening in Hsien. What if Tobo, Arkana, Shurkat and the Children of the Dead return to Hsien and travel north? We know that the worlds are identical except where man has intervened. Does the north have a Plain of Fear? Does it have it's own version of the Barrowland? Tobo (he really does need a new name, even though Shukrat calls him Tobe) has been brought up right. He could become the great and powerful Oz, aided by his wife and sister-in-law (and maybe Lady, but that may be too much of a link). I wouldn't like to see him become a new Dominator, but perhaps a crisis of faith? Maybe it would start something like this... The Company is no more, if it ever existed for me as it had for those that came before. I have taken up the pen that was left, but not as Annalist, as my father would have wanted. I do not know what drives me to record events as I see them. Perhaps it is out of some respect for what he achieved. Maybe it's just out of a desire to see that things will be remembered. In those days, we were in the service of no one... Well, it *could* start like that. Win ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 12:35:07 EDT From: CookReader@aol.com Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Alternative Authors (was Yesssssssssss!) In a message dated 8/5/00 5:11:00 PM, Sam.Roberts@apollogrp.edu writes: >I think the point was (and please excuse me if I'm misinterpreting) that >the kid refused to consider ANY authors if they weren't TSR books. That's >the truly sad thing, as if TSR was the only producer of quality or interesting >fantasy. Hopefully it's just a phase and he'll grow out of it. :-} He will. I worked for Borders for 4 years and I would all the time have parents come in saying, "My kid will only read Star Wars," or "Dragonlance," or whatever. Goosebumps or Fear Street or Christopher Pike or whatever. They would act like this was a major concern. Hell, at least the kid is reading. Eventually he will get bored or run-out (a near impossible task with TSR). I loved it when I could try to push a good book on a kid that is mostly used to reading crap. Nothing wrong with crap, I started with the usuals also, but there are better things out there than a lot of the shared world books. I found Cook from the reverse of this. I've been pushing books for a few years and a customer politely listened to my canned diatribe, then said, "Well, have you read Cook?" He puts Black Company in my hands. Terrible terrible cover. The rest of the series is even worse. I only read it because it would have been hypocritical of me not to (I'd shoved enough Brust down people's throat to deserve a few bad cover books). Anyway, I read it and loved it and to my great delight there were another 5 books! Took me a long weekend to read all straight through and I've since read them pretty much annually and shoved them down other's throat for awhile now. I do wish they would redo the covers though. christopher.... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 08:18:53 -0500 From: "PrimalChrome" Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) The FAQ Are you wanting a Glen Cook FAQ, or looking to compile one specific to this ListServ? - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Herrmann" To: "Glen Cook Fans" Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 10:07 AM Subject: (glencook-fans) The FAQ So the list has been around now for a year or so. It's about time we had a FAQ. The FAQ will be stored on the website with the archives. Anybody want to take on this task? If you have suggestions for the FAQ send them to me and then I'll forward them to whoever accepts the task. I'm just hoping it isn't me. :) Eric Herrmann ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 12:35:13 EDT From: CookReader@aol.com Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL:spoilers don't read unless you are finished In a message dated 8/5/00 10:11:10 AM, lich@mtco.com writes: >. . . except for the fact that SL is the last Black Company book. Glen >has no interest in writing anymore (Black Company anyway) -- burnout. I'm guessing this all depends on how his next book is recieved. The BC books are his bread&butter books. If he can parlay the popularity over to another series he's set, but if the next is not well recieved my guess is that he'll be back doing what sells. In a message dated 8/5/00 9:52:23 PM, mdscholl@yahoo.com writes: >Besides, Croaker-golem doing Gozilla meets Mothra >battle against the thing under Old Man Tree just >demands to be written!!! My money's on the thing under the Tree unless it comes out weak and grogy. Well, I guess it depends on how old the thing under the tree is. Chances are good the Shyetva (sp) would know its true name and the whole thing would be anti-climatic. christopher.... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 12:25:53 -0600 From: Eric Herrmann Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Book Covers (was Alternative Authors) > I found Cook from the reverse of this. I've been pushing books for a few years > and a customer politely listened to my canned diatribe, then said, "Well, have > you read Cook?" He puts Black Company in my hands. Terrible terrible cover. > The rest of the series is even worse. I only read it because it would have > been > hypocritical of me not to (I'd shoved enough Brust down people's throat to > deserve a few bad cover books). > > Anyway, I read it and loved it and to my great delight there were another 5 > books! Took me a long weekend to read all straight through and I've since read > them pretty much annually and shoved them down other's throat for awhile now. > > I do wish they would redo the covers though. Having scavenged some 135 images of Glen Cook covers lately. I'm not sure he's done better outside the United States. A lot of the Black Company covers are recycled Luis Royo that having nothing to do with the book. In fact, the cover of Shadow Games in Poland is the classic Stormbringer cover from the Elric of Melnibone series. So, Croaker's an albino with a soul-sucking sword now? At least France and Germany seem to have done original artwork for the covers. I'm not sure that the German covers are that much better, but the French editions are fantastic. The French covers are rich in detail and are actual scenes from the book. (On the new website are images from the cover, spine, and back of the book.) I hope that l'Atlante continues to publish more Black Company books. They make a great addition to any Cook collection. Eric Herrmann ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 13:11:12 -0400 (EDT) From: schew@interzone.com (Steve Chew) Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Book Covers (was Alternative Authors) > >> > I found Cook from the reverse of this. I've been pushing books for a few >> years >> > and a customer politely listened to my canned diatribe, then said, >"Well, >> have >> > you read Cook?" He puts Black Company in my hands. Terrible terrible >cover. >> >> > The rest of the series is even worse. > >The funny part is that Glen first saw Keith Berdak's artwork at a convention, >and loved it and asked him to do the covers, because he felt that they >correctly captured the feel of the series. Don't know that I agree with that >sentiment.... > Actually, I've always loved the cover on "The Black Company". It's what caught my eye back in '86 and was the reason I picked up the book and bought it. I also like some of the most recent covers. Steve - -- Steve Chew - schew@interzone.com - http://www.interzone.com "Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 15:59:12 -0500 From: "anthony palermo" Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Alternative Authors (was Yesssssssssss!) Oops! My Bad...it twould seem. I am new to the list and was not aware that this happened in the past. Simply thought some suggestions by other Cook fans would be nice (and they have been) as I hope to expand beyond Cook, Brust, Moorcock, Donaldson, et cetera. To those who did respond...thank you very much. To those of you it annoyed, mi piace. Tony - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 9:51 AM Subject: (glencook-fans) Alternative Authors (was Yesssssssssss!) > > In a message dated 8/2/00 11:13:19 PM, thepongo@worldnet.att.net writes: > > >And I wanted to ask the group...sort of off topic. > > > >When I am done I was looking for another book and/or series in the same > >vein as Cook. Any recommendations? > > Ummm, not that I want to be the negative voice here, but this thread seems > to come up every now and again, and frankly, it's usually not just "sort of > off topic," it's usually way off topic. People throw out the same handful of > authors that they happen to like, many of which self-admittedly have > nothing to do with Cook. "I like A and I like B, so anyone who likes A will > like B," doesn't work for me. (Give me an A B C D & F and I may try giving > you a G.) > > This is the first time this thread has actually generated content that is > somewhat on-topic (I could be wrong). I don't mind these when they are > tied back to Cook, but by themselves I could care less. > > So, here's my suggestion. Could we make a FAQ or a section on one > of the websites for "further" reading, where this type of list could be > maintianed? This way, when this comes up Eric could just post the URL > and we could go on discussing the author this list is dedicated to. > People could still feel free to suggest authors people will like based > on thier love of Cook, just write up who and why and send it to Eric. :) > > Or, just say I'm in the minority here, that this really is what people > want to talk about now that SL is out, and I'll shut the yap on my > face and we can go on talking about books I never intend to read. > > christopher.... > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 10:26:05 -0600 From: "OBRIEN,LEE (HP-Boise,ex1)" Subject: RE: (glencook-fans) SL Sequel (spoilers) And Croaker can subtly manipulate everyone's beliefs. I wonder if the literacy rates will go up. - -----Original Message----- From: Eric Herrmann [mailto:shpshftr@xmission.com] Sent: Monday, August 07, 2000 10:15 AM To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL Sequel (spoilers) on 8/7/00 7:47 AM, WinB@aol.com at WinB@aol.com wrote: > Moving forward, I don't think it would be appropriate to have a sequel > directly related to the Company. "In those days the Company..." just doesn't > fit anymore. I think the sequel is the Senjak sisters. Now that the men they competed for (Dominator and Croaker) are no longer available and Dorotea is the equal in power to Sylith, they patch up their differences and go shopping. That is shopping for kingdoms, empires and worlds. Eric Herrmann ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 15:06:33 -0700 From: "Darin McGee" Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Alternative Authors (was Yesssssssssss!) I don't think you're being fair to TSR fans. I tend to read anything that catches my interest and at times that has been books by Salvatore, Weis & Hickman. I know a few people whose reading material is almost entirely TSR and at first I thought they were simply restricting themselves but I've learned over time that they prefer TSR because they want to read about a world that becomes VERY detailed. It's a personal choice and doesn't reflect ignorance. Just because YOU think that Cook is the greatest thing since sliced bread (and so do I for that matter..) doesn't mean everyone else has to. Darin - -- > >I ran into a kid once who I discussed a couple fantasy books with. As >usual, I tried to introduce him to Cook. He responded, " I only read >TSR/Forgotten Realms books." I didn't know whether to laugh at him or cry >at his ignorance. Ultimately, I settled for my default reaction of ignoring >him. > > Send your favorite photo with any online greeting! http://www.whowhere.lycos.com/redirects/americangreetings.rdct ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 22:08:43 EDT From: CookReader@aol.com Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL (SPOILERS) In a message dated 8/6/00 7:36:33 PM, shpshftr@xmission.com writes: >To review, [Eric's page counting deleted] >I didn't particularly like the Glittering Stone books at all. But I suppose >that is because I was reading them expecting something different and it >took so very long for them to be published. > >I expected a nice tight run to Khatavor to find out the Why of the Black >Company. Shadow Games would have gotten us to Dejagore, Dreams of Steel >to Overlook, and Glittering Stone to Khatavor and the death of Kina. Done >in a 1000 pages. Hhhmmm, got to go against you on this one, Eric. This was one of the things I actually liked about the Books of the South. The Company can't just bluster on through like they do in the North. They get thwarted, side-tracked, and caught up in intrigue. If they ran things in the South like they did in the north they would have said, "Screw these people, we've got the Lance, let's make a run around." And don't tell me they couldn't have. The Company was sneaking in and out of impenetrable fortress left and right. They could have slipped a measly seven guys past Overlook. Soulcatcher managed to do it. The fact that they weren't just gethering up the plot cupons to get from point A to point B was frustratingly refreshing. >I think the real story would have better if it had been presented as two >trilogies and lost about 400 pages. The first trilogy handling the Shadow >Masters and the second trilogy handling Khatavor and Kina. Except that each book revises what comes before. They kind of blend and breaking them up like that would have served little (in my mind). And this book (SL) could have used another 400 pages of detail. I thought it would have been briliant had Cook killed off Booboo and Naryan right off the bat (instead of Otto and Hagop), then instead of the lame running around with these two, you could have had a "The year off the skulls was no longer possible, but we still had a promise to keep and Soulcatcher to deal with." Maybe less satisfying, but sure beats making a popsicle out of Catcher without a real conflict. >Reading them thinking that Khatavor was the destination and then not getting >there each time and starting each book at square one back in Taglios was >an exercise in frustration for 10 years. I got really tired of Taglios. Same here, but in the same way I got sick of Dejagore. In a good story telling way. They characters were also sick of it. It showed. >In reality, Khatavor meant very little to nothing. The real story is Kina >and the half dozen perspectives or mythologies surrounding her. Well, Khatavor is like Tanelorn in the Moorcock books, that mythical, unatainable place. Of course it would be a letdown once you got there. And if you think the Kina bit was the important part of the story I feel sorry for you, since I was bored by all that. Okay, we established she's bad and evil and wants to kill everyone, move on. Hell, if she's not even going to wake up, if the best we get is a peak behind the curtain, a glimpse into the bedroom, then let's get back to the fighting, or the intrigue. I kept wishing another wizard from the north would show up. No one ever really did go after lady for what she knew. I would have loved a scene where she gets tortured and gives it up, rats out every names she knows, gives of the spell of The Eye, and the secret to Taking. Instead we're constantly told what she represents, more power than the silver spike, and no one comes a huntin'? Even a few bedraggled bounty hunters would have been welcome. >What is the truth about Kina? What is the truth about the Black Company? >These questions are each answered differently by each book. Somewhere in >each book someone explains Kina and the Black Company which mostly >contradicts all the other books. I liked this about the company, didn't care for it for Kina. I care about the Company, but Kina's just some blob of godly flesh that dreams in centuries. >Knowing now that the story really revolves around the battle of wits between >Kina and Shivetya and not Khatavor, I think in rereading them I'll enjoy >them more as I look for the clues of this struggle. Well, that's what I did after each of the other books. Reread them imaging the company as a strangler cult gone wrong, or as a Nyangan Boa (sp) tribe that lost its way, or as...you keep getting a new way to look at what has already come. >The Books of the South and Glittering Stone are not like the Books of the >North. They are much more like Dread Empire. Dread Empire is world building >by retelling the same event from all the different perspectives. Halfway into the second, so no comment. >It took 2500 pages to explain Kina and the why of war and death in the >South. Perhaps if Glen had the 7 more books of Dread Empire he intended >we'd understand the Fates and the Norns. > >So did I answer the question? Probably not. Yes. Makes me wonder why you spend so much energy. This list, the website, you really should find an author worhty of your efforts. :) Actually, I feel like we're in the same boat, but I'm guessing the BC books aren't your faves. Garret or DE? Me, I like the BC books the best, but mostly because in the DE I can't figure out what sides people are on or what the behind the scene plots are. I'm constantly feeling like Croaker in SL, with Cook playing the plot too close to the chest. >I didn't find the ending satisfying. I didn't like how the characters kept >dieing. I didn't like how Khatavor was handled. Croaker was missing that >spark. Lady and Soulcatcher were non-existant. Croaker was the only >three-dimensional character, everyone else was flat. There wasn't a good >climax. The book carried on in a monotonous, unemotional style. Yeah, the flat character bit is exactly why I didn't care for anyone in this book and even Croaker wasn't someone I wanted to read about. Give me an analyst with a hard-on for the evil babe, not the dirty old man having gandparent sex. As disturbing as a car crash. I did like some of the new wizard girls. When Arkana was raped, I thought, "Welcome to the company." I was also suprised that the company managed to keep them prisoner as long as they did. If there's one thing the Company has sucked at it's running jails. I hated how the final word was given to these two and Tobo isn't directly in the book after the assassination attempt. Too often in SL the plot seemed driven by the author instead of the situations. Too bad for Tobo that he wasn't decked out like his girlfriend. >I liked the book in that it is done, the loose ends are mostly tied, and >most questions are answered. > >I reserve the right to change my opinions and I eagerly await something >new. Well, I liked it, not as well as some of the earlier books, but I liked it. christopher.... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 17:25:37 -0400 From: "Michele" Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL (spoilers) On 4 Aug 00, at 9:34, Warner, Jon wrote: >However, I was totally let down by our brief glimpse of Khatovar... but none the less I was left flat and let down. > Any similar feelings? > > Jonathan Quite the contrary. I read the last words, put the book down and was totally satisfied. I was really worried that after all the years of wondering about the fates of Booboo et al I'd get this book then be disappointed. But I wasn't. Yes I was "sad" when particular characters died - and some of the deaths were a bit anti-climatic (along the lines of - 'oh, and he's dead too, onto the next chapter'). Overall I'm happy - it ended well. I was really glad it came full circle and Croaker was back in the narrator's seat. As for Khatovar - I liked the way it was handled. All through the books of the South Croaker was told he'd be disappointed if he ever got there. They were right. Khatovar was a bust. It was a ploy to get the Black Company in place for Shivetya's plans. You notice that even after he finds Khatovar, Croaker never once mentions bringing the annals there - which was the rationale behind going in the first place. M Michele mr1@rcosta.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 09:09:00 -0500 From: "Lich" Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) SL: SPOILERS, read after you're done (long) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BFFF85.F5647D00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have to agree (although I know some on this list don't) that Cook's = first three Company books are the most enjoyable. I too was kinda = dissapointed by Water Sleeps, although I enjoyed it more when I read it = the second time, and didn't come to it with any preconceived notions = from just having read She is the Darkness. It remains the second = weakest book of the series (next to Bleak Seasons). For this reason I = was a little worried about how Soldiers would turn out. . . I too was very pleased when I discovered that Croaker was once again = annalist. I have to agree that Howler went down FAR to easily for one = of the Taken, but Cook must be forgiven that because of Howler's status = as a side-liner, rather than a character in the spotlight. Who knows, = maybe the thing that made Howler so bad was his howling, and when the = demon cured it he was just another off-the-rack superpowerful = pseudo-undead supersorcerer. Those type die easily. Sahra was pissing me off, I was kinda glad when she bought it. I don't = feel it deserves any kind of explanation. . . in the chaos of huge = combats like that it's very probably that someone could get smoked and = just never be heard from again. Enough rambling. . ..=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jordan Raney=20 To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 7:57 PM Subject: (glencook-fans) SL: SPOILERS, read after you're done (long) Don't read this unless you've finished...it's kind of long but I hope = people can find stuff to discuss in all this: =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 Wow....I just finished the book half an hour ago and I must say that = it was amazing. My favorite BC books were the first 3 and I thought it = kind of went down hill after that...Water Sleeps was alright but it = wasn't a masterpiece. This was though. =20 First of all, I was greatly excited to discover that Croaker was the = annalist! I hadn't read any info about the book until I opened to the = first page, purposely, just to keep myself from learning things like = that. It wasn't the same style as Croaker's earlier books, but I think = that can be accounted for by the fact that he probably hadn't been = keeping annals for what....20 years? Something like that anyway. And = after being captain, having and losing a daughter, becoming dictator of = taglios, being buried alive for 15 years, etc. any change in style is = easily accounted for. =20 I had a few questions about SL that I may have just missed, since I = read through it so quickly (just got it yesterday afternoon), but I = can't remember most of them because I was so stunned by the amazing = ending. I thought Cook did a perfect job of closing things up. It = would have been horrible to see Croaker die a regular death due to some = unfortunate turn of events, but it would have been just as bad to see = him just grow old and see him slowly decay into nothing. So how does a = writer get out of this predicament? Leave it up to Cook to find a way. = A great idea to have Croaker switch places with shivetya, damning = himself to eternity (well, at least he could entertain himself a bit = with shivetya's memories) and becoming the source of Lady's power.... =20 A couple questions though: I don't quite understand that whole = "barrier" at the bottom of the nameless fortress, leading to kina's = lair. How come Blade couldn't get through it after trying so long, and = then Sleepy easily walked through? Also, did it ever explain what happened to Sahra? It seemed like she = was just not there, and we never got a reason why or where she went. And it seemed to me that Howler died way too easily. I know it was = shadows that got him, but still...this is a guy that people have been = trying to kill for centuries and he dies on a simple raid. =20 Overall I thought it was amazing and I hope that it's the last of the = Black Company. I love this series a lot, but this is the perfect = ending. I know other people on the list have said things like "Great, = Croaker's not really dead, so Cook can write a sequel." But I hope = Cook's done with that. It'd be great to see more books from the WORLD = of the Black Company, or their early history, but I certainly don't = think Cook should write anything more near the time of Soldier's Live = etc. or even with the same characters. All memorable characters have = really been killed off...Croaker was it. I would not want to see a book = with Suvrin leading or even Lady...although I'm sure Cook could pull = that off well. =20 And that brings up one of the reasons, I think, why this book was so = great. Croaker, a character that we actually care about, is back as = annalist. Murgen was alright, and so was Lady, but in Water Sleeps I = felt very disconnected because I simply didn't care about Sleepy. I = guess I just didn't like the character. And when she died in SL I just = sort of thought to myself "good riddance, one more boring character is = now dead." I don't know what it is about the early BC books, and why I = care more about the outcome of Elmo, the lieutenant, raven, etc. so much = more than sleepy, sahra, etc. =20 I probably forgot something, but that's the bulk of it. =20 Simply Amazing. Cook at his best. =20 JR - ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BFFF85.F5647D00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have to agree (although I know some = on this list=20 don't) that Cook's first three Company books are the most = enjoyable.  I too=20 was kinda dissapointed by Water Sleeps, although I enjoyed it more when = I read=20 it the second time, and didn't come to it with any preconceived notions = from=20 just having read She is the Darkness.  It remains the second = weakest book=20 of the series (next to Bleak Seasons).  For this reason I was a = little=20 worried about how Soldiers would turn out. . .
 
I too was very pleased when I = discovered that=20 Croaker was once again annalist.  I have to agree that Howler went = down FAR=20 to easily for one of the Taken, but Cook must be forgiven that because = of=20 Howler's status as a side-liner, rather than a character in the = spotlight. =20 Who knows, maybe the thing that made Howler so bad was his howling, and = when the=20 demon cured it he was just another off-the-rack superpowerful = pseudo-undead=20 supersorcerer.  Those type die easily.
 
Sahra was pissing me off, I was kinda = glad when she=20 bought it.  I don't feel it deserves any kind of explanation. . . = in the=20 chaos of huge combats like that it's very probably that someone could = get smoked=20 and just never be heard from again.
 
Enough rambling. . ..
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Jordan=20 Raney
To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com= =20
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2000 = 7:57=20 PM
Subject: (glencook-fans) SL: = SPOILERS,=20 read after you're done (long)

Don't read this unless you've finished...it's kind = of long=20 but I hope people can find stuff to discuss in all this:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Wow....I just finished the book half an hour ago = and I must=20 say that it was amazing.  My favorite BC books were the first 3 = and I=20 thought it kind of went down hill after that...Water Sleeps was = alright but it=20 wasn't a masterpiece.  This was though.
 
First of all, I was greatly excited to discover = that Croaker=20 was the annalist!  I hadn't read any info about the book until I = opened=20 to the first page, purposely, just to keep myself from learning things = like=20 that.  It wasn't the same style as Croaker's earlier books, but I = think=20 that can be accounted for by the fact that he probably hadn't been = keeping=20 annals for what....20 years?  Something like that anyway.  = And after=20 being captain, having and losing a daughter, becoming dictator of = taglios,=20 being buried alive for 15 years, etc. any change in style is easily = accounted=20 for.
 
I had a few questions about SL that I may have = just missed,=20 since I read through it so quickly (just got it yesterday afternoon), = but I=20 can't remember most of them because I was so stunned by the amazing=20 ending.  I thought Cook did a perfect job of closing things = up.  It=20 would have been horrible to see Croaker die a regular death due to = some=20 unfortunate turn of events, but it would have been just as bad to see = him just=20 grow old and see him slowly decay into nothing.  So how does a = writer get=20 out of this predicament?  Leave it up to Cook to find a = way.  A=20 great idea to have Croaker switch places with shivetya, damning = himself to=20 eternity (well, at least he could entertain himself a bit with = shivetya's=20 memories) and becoming the source of Lady's power....
 
A couple questions though:  I don't quite = understand=20 that whole "barrier" at the bottom of the nameless fortress, leading = to kina's=20 lair.  How come Blade couldn't get through it after trying so = long, and=20 then Sleepy easily walked through?
Also, did it ever explain what happened to = Sahra?  It=20 seemed like she was just not there, and we never got a reason why or = where she=20 went.
And it seemed to me that Howler died way too = easily.  I=20 know it was shadows that got him, but still...this is a guy that = people have=20 been trying to kill for centuries and he dies on a simple = raid.
 
Overall I thought it was amazing and I hope that = it's the=20 last of the Black Company.  I love this series a lot, but this is = the=20 perfect ending.  I know other people on the list have said things = like=20 "Great, Croaker's not really dead, so Cook can write a sequel."  = But I=20 hope Cook's done with that.  It'd be great to see more books from = the=20 WORLD of the Black Company, or their early history, but I certainly = don't=20 think Cook should write anything more near the time of Soldier's Live = etc. or=20 even with the same characters.  All memorable characters have = really been=20 killed off...Croaker was it.  I would not want to see a book with = Suvrin=20 leading or even Lady...although I'm sure Cook could pull that off=20 well.
 
And that brings up one of the reasons, I think, = why this=20 book was so great.  Croaker, a character that we actually care = about, is=20 back as annalist.  Murgen was alright, and so was Lady, but in = Water=20 Sleeps I felt very disconnected because I simply didn't care about=20 Sleepy.  I guess I just didn't like the character.  And when = she=20 died in SL I just sort of thought to myself "good riddance, one more = boring=20 character is now dead."  I don't know what it is about the early = BC=20 books, and why I care more about the outcome of Elmo, the lieutenant, = raven,=20 etc. so much more than sleepy, sahra, etc.
 
I probably forgot something, but that's the bulk = of=20 it.
 
Simply Amazing.  Cook at his = best.
 
JR
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