From: owner-glencook-fans-digest@lists.xmission.com (glencook-fans-digest) To: glencook-fans-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: glencook-fans-digest V1 #270 Reply-To: glencook-fans-digest Sender: owner-glencook-fans-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-glencook-fans-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk glencook-fans-digest Sunday, October 19 2003 Volume 01 : Number 270 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 01:13:47 -0500 From: Steve Harris Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Hi, new here... Pat, "No, I've enjoyed them all, more than I enjoyed the last of the Black Company Books." And here I took "Soldiers Live" to be the most sublime of all his books. Not in the same mold as the rest of the Black Company books, but breaking the frame and surpassing the rest of the series. Ah, well; different tastes. Steve ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 11:35:48 -0500 From: "Ray Washburn" Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Hi, new here... Over the past few years I've not been as happy with Glen's works. The Garrett series was his last bastion and even that seemed to fail with the latest release. Passage to Arms, Dragon Never Sleeps and the first four Black Company books are all hard acts to follow....but so much of late has felt like he was either coasting, writing at the behest of his editor, or going through an exercise in self indulgence... Realizing that tastes are fickle.... I'd like to ask those of you that truly enjoyed Water Sleeps and Soldiers Live what about these books makes you feel that they were improvements over the initial series? (sorry for the sloppy email....writing while trying to scarf down a quick lunch between clients) Ray - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Harris" To: Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 1:13 AM Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Hi, new here... > Pat, > > "No, I've enjoyed them all, more than I enjoyed the last of the Black > Company Books." > > And here I took "Soldiers Live" to be the most sublime of all his books. > Not in the same mold as the rest of the Black Company books, but > breaking the frame and surpassing the rest of the series. > > Ah, well; different tastes. > > Steve > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 14:54:01 -0300 From: Richard Chilton Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Hi, new here... Spoilers Not that many spoilers, but a few. Steve Harris wrote: > > Speaking of Garrett books... > > I only recently got into Garrett, and I got all of them this summer > (save for "Quicksilver", which I can't seem to find). And I really > liked them--except for the last one. Is that a common judgement? > You might want to read the list achieves from the time that book came out. A quick look in my sent message folder came up with the date 4 / 28/ 2002 - try the archives around then. If memory serves ... Some people liked it, some didn't. . . . . . . . . . . . . . I saw it as a "let's clean up a few loose ends and reposition the series" type of book. Something the series needed but that didn't stand well on its own. Looking at the series we start with a guy renting a room acting as the city's only P.I. and each book gives Garrett some rewards. In the last book Garrett is moving with the movers and shakers, rich, has lots of powerful friends, and doesn't really need much except stability in the city. That's a big jump in the power level of the setting. Garrett has also developed what look like PSI powers - was it the contact with the visitors that did it, or was it something he had all along (explaining his fantastic luck with women)? Richard ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 14:16:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Igor Filippov Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Hi, new here... I guess I'm one of those who truly enjoyed Water Sleeps and Soldiers Live. I don't know if one could put a label "improvement" on the later books, it doesn't seem quite possible to judge them in such a one-dimensional scale. They are different books, different in style - which is as it should be, since it reflects different narrators, or the same narrator but much older and I wouldn't necessarily place any of them in "better" or "worse" category - I find later books to be as captivating as the first one. To me, Sleepy's intricate spy games have been as interesting as romantic mysteries of the beginning of the series. If anything, I would say that the middle of the series is a little less than on par with the beginning and the end - I'm talking about "Dreams of Steel". Regards, Igor On Thu, 16 Oct 2003, Ray Washburn wrote: > Over the past few years I've not been as happy with Glen's works. The > Garrett series was his last bastion and even that seemed to fail with the > latest release. Passage to Arms, Dragon Never Sleeps and the first four > Black Company books are all hard acts to follow....but so much of late has > felt like he was either coasting, writing at the behest of his editor, or > going through an exercise in self indulgence... > > Realizing that tastes are fickle.... I'd like to ask those of you that > truly enjoyed Water Sleeps and Soldiers Live what about these books makes > you feel that they were improvements over the initial series? > > (sorry for the sloppy email....writing while trying to scarf down a quick > lunch between clients) > > Ray > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Harris" > To: > Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 1:13 AM > Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Hi, new here... > > > > Pat, > > > > "No, I've enjoyed them all, more than I enjoyed the last of the Black > > Company Books." > > > > And here I took "Soldiers Live" to be the most sublime of all his books. > > Not in the same mold as the rest of the Black Company books, but > > breaking the frame and surpassing the rest of the series. > > > > Ah, well; different tastes. > > > > Steve > > > > ======================================================================= > > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > > visit . > > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 15:37:33 -0300 From: Richard Chilton Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Hi, new here... One big change in Cook's work is how it's written. Before he retired he used to write the books in his head during his commute to and from work then type up the pages when he got home. Now not only is he retired, but he's using a word processor. When writers switch to wordprocessors there's usually a change in their work (or at least that's what I've noticed). They've gone from a "Think before you type because changing things is a pain" mindset to a "cut, paste, delete" one. From what I've read most authors saw their page counts rise after the conversion. Richard Ray Washburn wrote: > > Over the past few years I've not been as happy with Glen's works. The > Garrett series was his last bastion and even that seemed to fail with the > latest release. Passage to Arms, Dragon Never Sleeps and the first four > Black Company books are all hard acts to follow....but so much of late has > felt like he was either coasting, writing at the behest of his editor, or > going through an exercise in self indulgence... > > Realizing that tastes are fickle.... I'd like to ask those of you that > truly enjoyed Water Sleeps and Soldiers Live what about these books makes > you feel that they were improvements over the initial series? > > (sorry for the sloppy email....writing while trying to scarf down a quick > lunch between clients) > > Ray > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Harris" > To: > Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 1:13 AM > Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Hi, new here... > > > Pat, > > > > "No, I've enjoyed them all, more than I enjoyed the last of the Black > > Company Books." > > > > And here I took "Soldiers Live" to be the most sublime of all his books. > > Not in the same mold as the rest of the Black Company books, but > > breaking the frame and surpassing the rest of the series. > > > > Ah, well; different tastes. > > > > Steve > > > > ======================================================================= > > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > > visit . > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 14:52:44 -0400 From: Steve Chew Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Last BC books > >Realizing that tastes are fickle.... I'd like to ask those of you that >truly enjoyed Water Sleeps and Soldiers Live what about these books makes >you feel that they were improvements over the initial series? > I don't know about "improvement" over the initial trilogy, but for me they rank up there with it. Without going back and rereading those books I don't think that I could explain the exact reasons why I feel that way. However, I can say that I had much of the same "I can't stop reading this" feeling when reading Water Sleeps and Soldiers Live. I think that Cook got back to a style that was similar to that in the original trilogy where things were unpredictable and exciting. Death was right around the corner and the outcome was not sure. That said, the first couple Glittering Stones books left me cold. I had a hard time getting through "Bleak Seasons," especially as it was supposed to be a sequel to the cliffhanger in "Dreams of Steel." "She is the Darkness" was a bit better but didn't live up to the earlier books. I think that one of the big problems in those two books was the omniscient viewpoint provided by Murgen and that wizard. It took away a lot of the tension and instead of involving the characters (and reader) in the action we observed it from above. Cook eliminated much of that in the last two books which was a wise move, imho. Steve ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 13:05:19 -0700 From: Derrill 'Kisc' Guilbert Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Hi, new here... I never thought they were improvements, so much. I certainly felt that the books of the south etc were different, but not that they were better or worse. I have enjoyed all of them a great deal. I don't know as much about Mr. Cook as I do about my favorite author, David Drake, so let me use him as an example or something. Mr. Drake used to write some truly horrific stories of military mayhem. I believe he is still capable of doing so, but if you read some of the things on his website, and some of his "author's notes" included with some of his books, you can go back through and watch the progression that he talks about on his website and in his author's notes. Something seems to have been resolved within Mr. Drake's soul with the writing of Redliners (I point to that because that is where he points to), and you can often see the difference in books that he wrote before Redliners and books that he wrote after. As I say, I don't know much of anything about Mr. Cook, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that he isn't the same person as he was 20 years ago. Who you are affects what you write. Will Smith once said of his Fresh Prince of Bel Air character "It is getting harder and harder to find that guy inside of me. I've changed since the show started." Mr. Drake's comments regarding his book Redliners seems to be a similar statement, and I would suggest that Mr. Cook has been through something similar, if only the wearing of time. That is really the impression I took away from his latter works, that he has changed, his outlook on life has changed, his focus as to what is important in his life has changed, something has changed for him, and that is reflected in his writing. I would have loved it if [my favorite band] had continued to play the same music for the entire run of their career, but then they would be AC/DC... For more thoughts on this topic, see also Robert Aspirin and his Myth books. Same story. No matter how much an author wants to continue to write in a universe or a style, whether because he enjoys that place or because he enjoys making US happy, there may come a time when said author has to move on. Kisc Ray Washburn wrote: > Over the past few years I've not been as happy with Glen's works. The > Garrett series was his last bastion and even that seemed to fail with the > latest release. Passage to Arms, Dragon Never Sleeps and the first four > Black Company books are all hard acts to follow....but so much of late has > felt like he was either coasting, writing at the behest of his editor, or > going through an exercise in self indulgence... > > Realizing that tastes are fickle.... I'd like to ask those of you that > truly enjoyed Water Sleeps and Soldiers Live what about these books makes > you feel that they were improvements over the initial series? > > (sorry for the sloppy email....writing while trying to scarf down a quick > lunch between clients) > > Ray > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Harris" > To: > Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 1:13 AM > Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Hi, new here... > > > >>Pat, >> >>"No, I've enjoyed them all, more than I enjoyed the last of the Black >>Company Books." >> >>And here I took "Soldiers Live" to be the most sublime of all his books. >> Not in the same mold as the rest of the Black Company books, but >>breaking the frame and surpassing the rest of the series. >> >>Ah, well; different tastes. >> >>Steve >> >>======================================================================= >> To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, >> visit . > > > > ======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 15:41:06 -0700 From: patnellie@msn.com Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Hi, new here... - ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C393FB.E99D9980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok, here's the problem with the "new" black company books. they treat dea= th as a "oh and so and so died". I mean, my gods, half the old company gone = in =20 the first chapter? =20 Lets face it, he couldn't come up with better villians than the Taken and= the Lady. Or Anti Hero's like Croaker, Raven, Silent, Goblin and One-Eye. I even li= ked Bozman, The Bartender in Juniper, The big dumb City/Catacombs Guard. =20 Garrett on the other hand, has grown up and outwards getting ready for a = major humbling. I'm waiting for the wedding ring to find him and the loss of hi= s ability to do things, without sweating the "family" angle. I truly think that he'= s past the "It's all for me" stage and looking at what effects all the things around= him. Just my ".02" coppers worth. Pat =20 =20 - ----- Original Message ----- Wrom: SKVFVWRKJVZCM Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 12:29 PM To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Hi, new here... =20 I guess I'm one of those who truly enjoyed Water Sleeps and Soldiers Live. I don't know if one could put a label "improvement" on the later books, it doesn't seem quite possible to judge them in such a one-dimensional scale. They are different books, different in style - which is as it should be, since it reflects different narrators, or the same narrator but much older and I wouldn't necessarily place any of them in "better" o= r "worse" category - I find later books to be as captivating as the first one. To me, Sleepy's intricate spy games have been as interesting as romantic mysteries of the beginning of the series. If anything, I would say that the middle of the series is a little less than on par with the beginning and the end - I'm talking about "Dreams of Steel". Regards, Igor On Thu, 16 Oct 2003, Ray Washburn wrote: > Over the past few years I've not been as happy with Glen's works. The > Garrett series was his last bastion and even that seemed to fail with t= he > latest release. Passage to Arms, Dragon Never Sleeps and the first fou= r > Black Company books are all hard acts to follow....but so much of late = has > felt like he was either coasting, writing at the behest of his editor, = or > going through an exercise in self indulgence... > > Realizing that tastes are fickle.... I'd like to ask those of you that > truly enjoyed Water Sleeps and Soldiers Live what about these books mak= es > you feel that they were improvements over the initial series? > > (sorry for the sloppy email....writing while trying to scarf down a qui= ck > lunch between clients) > > Ray > > > ----- Original Message ----- > Wrom: HVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCX > To: > Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 1:13 AM > Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Hi, new here... > > > > Pat, > > > > "No, I've enjoyed them all, more than I enjoyed the last of the Black > > Company Books." > > > > And here I took "Soldiers Live" to be the most sublime of all his boo= ks. > > Not in the same mold as the rest of the Black Company books, but > > breaking the frame and surpassing the rest of the series. > > > > Ah, well; different tastes. > > > > Steve > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > > visit . > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . - ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C393FB.E99D9980 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ok, here's the= problem with the "new" black company books. they treat death
=
as a "oh and so and so died". I mean, my gods, half the old company = gone in
the first chapter?  
 
Lets face it, he couldn't come up with better villians than t= he Taken and the Lady.
Or Anti Hero's like Croaker, Raven, Sil= ent, Goblin and One-Eye. I even liked Bozman,
The Bartender in= Juniper, The big dumb City/Catacombs Guard.
 
Garrett on the other hand, has grown up and outwards getting ready for = a major
humbling. I'm waiting for the wedding ring to find him= and the loss of his ability
to do things, without sweating th= e "family" angle. I truly think that he's past the
"It's all f= or me" stage and looking at what effects all the things around him.
=
 
Just my ".02" coppers worth.
 
Pat
 
 
----= - - Original Message -----
From: Igor Filippov
Sent: Thursday, October 16, 2003 12:29 PM
<= DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">To: glencook-fans@lists.xmission.co= m
Subject: Re: (glencook-fan= s) Hi, new here...
 
I guess I'm one of those who tr= uly enjoyed Water Sleeps and Soldiers
Live.
I don't know if one cou= ld put a label "improvement" on the later books,
it doesn't seem quite= possible to judge them in such a one-dimensional
scale. They are diff= erent books, different in style - which is as it
should be, since it r= eflects different narrators, or the same narrator
but much older and I= wouldn't necessarily place any of them in "better" or
"worse" categor= y - I find later books to be as captivating as the first
one. To me, S= leepy's intricate spy games have been as interesting as
romantic myste= ries of the beginning of the series. If anything, I would
say that the= middle of the series is a little less than on par with the
beginning = and the end - I'm talking about "Dreams of Steel".

Regards,
Igo= r




On Thu, 16 Oct 2003, Ray Washburn wrote:

>= Over the past few years I've not been as happy with Glen's works.  = The
> Garrett series was his last bastion and even that seemed to f= ail with the
> latest release.  Passage to Arms, Dragon Never = Sleeps and the first four
> Black Company books are all hard acts t= o follow....but so much of late has
> felt like he was either coast= ing, writing at the behest of his editor, or
> going through an exe= rcise in self indulgence...
>
> Realizing that tastes are fic= kle....  I'd like to ask those of you that
> truly enjoyed Wat= er Sleeps and Soldiers Live what about these books makes
> you feel= that they were improvements over the initial series?
>
> (so= rry for the sloppy email....writing while trying to scarf down a quick> lunch between clients)
>
> Ray
>
>
> = - ----- Original Message -----
> Wrom: LYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJS u.edu>
> To: <glencook-fans@lists.xmission.com>
> Se= nt: Thursday, October 16, 2003 1:13 AM
> Subject: Re: (glencook-fan= s) Hi, new here...
>
>
> > Pat,
> >
>= > "No, I've enjoyed them all, more than I enjoyed the last of the Bla= ck
> > Company Books."
> >
> > And here I took= "Soldiers Live" to be the most sublime of all his books.
> >&nb= sp; Not in the same mold as the rest of the Black Company books, but
&= gt; > breaking the frame and surpassing the rest of the series.
>= ; >
> > Ah, well; different tastes.
> >
> >= Steve
> >
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> >  To unsubscribe, subscribe, or ac= cess the archives of this list,
> >  visit <http://www.x= mission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
>
>
> =3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>  T= o unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
>&nb= sp; visit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
&= gt;

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list,
vi= sit <http://www.xmission.com/~shpshftr/GC/GC-Mail.html>.
- ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C393FB.E99D9980-- ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:26:25 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: Lee Childs Subject: (glencook-fans) Last BC Books I also enjoyed the last couple of books. The spy games were fun in Water Sleeps. I enjoyed Sleepy's character and Mogaba's character had gained in complexity and was starting to become more noble. I really enjoyed Soldiers Live. A lot of plot lines wrapped up. There were some unexpected twists. Several personal favorites died, including the Howler, Daughter of Night, and an odd end to Soulcatcher. There was some dramatic irony in Sleepy's death. There was a sense of poetic justice in watching the Prahbrindrah Drah and his sister, the Radisha Drah lose their chance at the throne and who replaced them. I also felt that Bleak Seasons was the series low point. I enjoyed the seige of Dejagore. However, the sub plot of Murgen jumping back and forth between his future in Taglios and his past to Dejagore was hard to follow. And then there were the names! Sarie was also Sahra or Ky Sahra. Her brother, Thai Dei, should have been something like Ky Dei. How would I know that this was her brother? Mother Gota AKA Ky Gota. Sarie's mother, Hong Tray. That was quite a lag between Bleak Seasons and the book before this. I remember thinking that I was drowning when I read this. Lee Childs ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 15:05:13 -0500 From: Troy & Sue Lefman Subject: Re: (glencook-fans) Hi, new here... I can typically double my output from paper or thought to computer. However I can write one page on paper and have it equal half a typed page. Richard Chilton wrote: >One big change in Cook's work is how it's written. Before he retired he >used to write the books in his head during his commute to and from work >then type up the pages when he got home. >Now not only is he retired, but he's using a word processor. > >When writers switch to wordprocessors there's usually a change in their >work (or at least that's what I've noticed). They've gone from a "Think >before you type because changing things is a pain" mindset to a "cut, >paste, delete" one. From what I've read most authors saw their page >counts rise after the conversion. > >Richard > > >======================================================================= > To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, > visit . > > > ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit . ------------------------------ End of glencook-fans-digest V1 #270 *********************************** ======================================================================= To unsubscribe, subscribe, or access the archives of this list, visit .