From: Spyder Subject: (hdproject) test message Date: 23 Apr 1999 00:44:03 -0600 *tap* *tap* *tap* Spyder "We're living at the end of a world and the beginning of a NEW one." - Fenris, April 1999 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Spyder Subject: (hdproject) P.P.S. Date: 23 Apr 1999 00:55:09 -0600 If you're reading this, it means the list is fully operational. Feel free to start using it instead of the CC lists. I just cut/pasted from my Eudora bookmark, so holler if I missed any names: C u r r e n t L i s t I s : spyder@xmission.com Rorschach Timber Corwyn J. Alambar Coyote Digital Dragon T'shai Edward Becerra elantee@hotmail.com Follower of the Clawed Albino jess smith KatmanDu Landon Solomon Nary lethotep "R. Stricklin (kjaeros)" scout@coyotes.org wolfmage@coyotes.org Wontolla WSale31114@aol.com, Yhoneska Imtayme G'night, all! =) Spyder "We're living at the end of a world and the beginning of a NEW one." - Fenris, April 1999 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSale31114@aol.com Subject: Re: (hdproject) P.P.S. Date: 23 Apr 1999 03:50:41 EDT Looks like it's working just fine. Flenser - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Glenda Woodrum Subject: Re: (hdproject) P.P.S. Date: 23 Apr 1999 09:46:14 -0500 >If you're reading this, it means the list is fully operational. Feel free >to start using it instead of the CC lists. I just cut/pasted from my Eudora >bookmark, so holler if I missed any names: just as hissspelling... t'shai Spyder, small 't' please. ((hugs the spyder in it's coils--looks sleepy now that's it's sudden'y getting cold again--wonders where the warm went--give the wendigo critter a sour look and slithers away shedding ice crystals) Glenda Woodrum Editor: genrEZONE http://www.genrezone.com Fiction Editor: Con-Tour Magazine http://www.con-tour.com Editor: Twilight Times Books http://www.twilighttimes.com Member: Romance Foretold, Inc. http://www.romfort.org - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Spyder Subject: Re: (hdproject) P.P.S. Date: 23 Apr 1999 10:19:06 -0600 At 9:46 AM -0500 4/23/1999, Glenda Woodrum wrote: => => just as hissspelling... => => t'shai => => Spyder, small 't' please. Ooopsie. =) All fixed now. There's one more difficulty: all of Corwyn's mail to best.com is bouncing. If anyone knows some other way to reach him, you might wanna let him know there's a problem with it... Spyder "We're living at the end of a world and the beginning of a NEW one." - Fenris, April 1999 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Spyder Subject: (hdproject) Re: 404 Error... Date: 23 Apr 1999 10:30:42 -0600 I crossposted my reply to (hopefully) clear up any similar confusion. At 11:09 AM -0400 4/23/1999, Wontolla wrote: => Uh, Spyder? => => I get a 404 from the FAQ URL that you posted for the new => list. Whooops! I bet 'Yote removed the pages... he said he was thinking about doin' that... =\ => Got a question, will something I post to the new list be => autoposted to the old one or should I crosspost? Nope, they're independant lists, although someone subscribed to heartsdream can post messages to hdproject. Both will remain active, but if people don't want to be 'subjected' to the chat on heartsdream, they don't need to be subscribed to both. => Or should we just not post anything from the on topic list => to the old list? Can do both, if you like. The idea is, "heartsdream" is for discussion, chat, and in general an 'online community/meeting hall' for the weres and friends of HD to meet and talk about things not _necessarily_ pertaining to the building of the project itself. While "hdproject" is for building ideas, time-tables, locations, and all sorts of matters pertaining directly to building HD or multiple HD's or werehouses worldwide... =) Also, for the time being until I can get a mail alias set up, note the fact that the address is @_lists._xmission.com -- it won't deliver without that until I can talk to my pal Jeff about fixing that (hopefully later today...) After that both 'hdproject@xmission.com' and 'hdproject@therianthrope.org' will be viable addresses (until the Nic revokes therianthrope.org at least. ;1) Spyder "We're living at the end of a world and the beginning of a NEW one." - Fenris, April 1999 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wontolla Subject: (hdproject) Acquiring useful stuff (long) Date: 25 Apr 1999 11:03:29 -0400 I had an exhausting but productive day yesterday. I went to a local "Flea market/antique store going out of business auction. It lasted all day and I had to take a nap in my car in the middle of it, but it was worth the time. I got a brand new reel mower for $8.00. I paid $9 for a box lot which contained; a milk crate with a box FULL of galavanized nails, a compartmented tray full of all sorts of nuts and bolts, a push broom head, a miter box, a hand turned grinding wheel and a pipe vise (the box all of this was in was a very nice heavy duty plastic storage container with a lid). I got a massive old steamer trunk with two trays (allowing 3 levels of storage) in good condition for $17.50 and a monsterous old solid oak display case with lovely decorative carving (minus its glass), for $15.00. Later I brought a friend back to help me pick up the display case, and she got: a sledge, a new double bitted ax, a saw, a long bladed scythe, a logging hook, 7 brand new hammers, a huge pile of rope, and a box full of new paintbrushes for a grand total of exactly $30. If you need stuff, and can find an auction, you can very likely find something that you need for literally pennies on the dollar. I especially recomend auctions for outfitting your tool shop. Not only will you get a good price, but you can find things like that hand crank grinding wheel that you can't get anywhere else. I estimate that the nails alone paid for my time, nails usually run about $1.10 a pound and I got about 50lbs in that milk crate. There is a real danger with auctions though that I've got to mention. You can get stuck with a piles of stuff that you don't need in order to get that one thing that you want. I almost never buy any boxed lots for that reason. Usually gettting that one really nifty tool means you'll have to deal with 3 cracked china cups, a bent spatula with a melted handle, a 4 bent spoons, a notched hatchet with a broken handle, a pile of nameless fuses, etc, etc, etc. Now if you can get some useful stuff that you don't really need with that one item that you do, you can sell the unwanted stuff later in a yard sale. But you always have to keep in mind that you are going to have to deal with it somehow (and I personally detest throwing stuff in the trash to clutter up some landfill). That friend of mine who helped me get the case says her father-in-law used to be an auction addict and would go and buy almost anything that went for a dollar or 2, he would then bring it home, and shove it in a storage building. When the building filled up, he would build another. When he died they had an auction. Wontolla wontolla@netonecom.net - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dave Price Subject: (hdproject) Miscellany, absence Date: 25 Apr 1999 15:31:43 -0500 Sorry I haven't said much, but it's been a pretty lousy week. In any case, thanks to Spyder for setting up the list. That CC: thing was getting messy. ;) Does everyone still think that the personal profiles/essays are appropriate? From the description, this list is intended as something more technically oriented than I originally thought - are personal items/thoughts/issues still appropriate here? I realize that the central complaint regarding the creation of this is the chattiness of the old list, and that many people here may wish to keep this list firmly grounded in more technical issues. Secondly, would anyone mind if I posted some messages from other lists regarding construction techniques, land acquisition, and other relevant topics? I'll try not to overwhelm, but I think that there is a lot of relevant info in them. luck & laughter, =Timber= - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on digests or retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your message. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rorschach Subject: Re: (hdproject) Miscellany, absence Date: 26 Apr 1999 01:29:11 -0700 (PDT) On Sun, 25 Apr 1999, Dave Price wrote: > > Sorry I haven't said much, but it's been a pretty lousy week. > > In any case, thanks to Spyder for setting up the list. That CC: thing was > getting messy. ;) > > Does everyone still think that the personal profiles/essays are > appropriate? From the description, this list is intended as something more > technically oriented than I originally thought - are personal > items/thoughts/issues still appropriate here? I realize that the central > complaint regarding the creation of this is the chattiness of the old list, > and that many people here may wish to keep this list firmly grounded in > more technical issues. This depends on the audience. If everyone on the old list can see what is being posted on hdproject, I personally don't feel as comfortable going into private/spiritual/personal info. If the people on hdproject is basically the people on the cc list with the addition of new people by somehing like the sponsership (someone making a post asking if they should be included) type thing then I think it is very definitely a place for personal info and that type of discussion. What I see hdproject for is for the "core" discussion of HD pretty much by and for the people who will really be doing something to organize, fund, and construct it. This discussion should (possibly even more than on heartsdream) involve people talkinga bout themselves, discussiing personal beleifs and issues, and other socail aspects taht will let us see how well we may be able to co-exist before taking the step of moving into the same house. > Secondly, would anyone mind if I posted some messages from other lists > regarding construction techniques, land acquisition, and other relevant > topics? I'll try not to overwhelm, but I think that there is a lot of > relevant info in them. OI think this would be a very good way to being outside ideas and veiws into our discussions. There are a lot of people working on very similar projects and a lot has been done and solved long before we have gotten here. Re-inventing the wheel can be fun, but is best not done too often. . . Rors (Rorschach) | \ / | |/ """ \? A simple pattern of Black and White? //,\ /,\\ Within you can find images, reflections, maybe balance. \ |_| / We walk a risky path: alone, yet not: whole, yet fractured. `=' "Sometimes the wolves are silent and the moon is howling" - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Digital Dragon Subject: (hdproject) Crops Date: 26 Apr 1999 06:29:26 -0500 (EST) In order to bring the "H&S" thread over here: The debate "organic" vs. "hydroponics" is one tha can go on for decades. ATM we prolly cannot afford to have a proper hydro farm going. We'll have to stcik with getting down in the dirt, and with erecting a greenhouse for those"other" plants that will do better in such an environment. One thing that I have not seen mentioned in this thread is Crop Rotation. This is something that needs to be done so we don't end up with dead land. This means that we need to have at least 3 plots to use, if we are to do this effectively. While one plot is being used, the other 2 can be used for something else. I'm not certain about this, but maybe having plants that require different soil is good enough for this, but I'd doubt it. If we are to have our own livestock at some point, those animals could most likely graze in the fields that are not being used for crops. This way the fields are kept "healthy" until the time comes for them to be used, =Digi _ _ Digital Dragon, Clan Stormchaser o--------------------o //___// digidrag@discovernet.net | Team POV & *Amiga* | /____/ ( http://www.discovernet.net/~digidrag | A1200 50MHz 34Mb |/^ ^/( ICQ: 21109302 IRC : Digi2 o--------------------/ ---- /;/ alt.fan.dragons, Alfandria MUCK : Digi /_____//// alt.lifestyle.furry, Furry MUCK: Digi `v---v'// "Dragons hold the true spirit of life." `===='~ DC.?(D,t) f++ s+ h-- Cg|b,t:b a+ $+ m d+++ WL++*/WL+^* Fr-- L z e+++ g i-- - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Spyder Subject: Re: (hdproject) Miscellany, absence Date: 26 Apr 1999 09:29:06 -0600 At 1:29 AM -0700 4/26/1999, Rorschach wrote: => => This depends on the audience. If everyone on the old list can see what => is being posted on hdproject, I personally don't feel as comfortable => going into private/spiritual/personal info. Nah, that's not hw it works -- people on either list are allowed to post messages directly to the other list, whether or not they're subscribed to it. That way, people can email this list to ask to be added to it or to ask questions, and people here can email back with answers to questions... Messages however are not crossposted automatically. =) If the people on hdproject is => basically the people on the cc list with the addition of new people by => somehing like the sponsership (someone making a post asking if they should => be included) What I was thinking will be nice is that if someone here has an objection to someone joining, we can speak up when they request access. =) Makes it sort of a group decision rather than one person take "responsibility" for that person. Spyder "We're living at the end of a world and the beginning of a NEW one." - Fenris, April 1999 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Subject: Re: (hdproject) Miscellany, absence Date: 26 Apr 1999 14:52:23 -0400 > If the people on hdproject is >=> basically the people on the cc list with the addition of new people by >=> somehing like the sponsership (someone making a post asking if they should >=> be included) > >What I was thinking will be nice is that if someone here has an objection >to someone joining, we can speak up when they request access. =) Makes it >sort of a group decision rather than one person take "responsibility" for >that person. I like that idea much better. I fear that the only thing sponsorship will do is give us someone to blame if the sponsored newbie is a pain... and who cares about blame? I know that is ntohat is intended, but that is what I fear. I would rather use Spyder's idea for this particular thing. Coyote - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Subject: Re: (hdproject) Miscellany, absence Date: 26 Apr 1999 14:47:00 -0400 >Sorry I haven't said much, but it's been a pretty lousy week. > >In any case, thanks to Spyder for setting up the list. That CC: thing was >getting messy. ;) > >Does everyone still think that the personal profiles/essays are >appropriate? From the description, this list is intended as something more >technically oriented than I originally thought - are personal >items/thoughts/issues still appropriate here? I realize that the central >complaint regarding the creation of this is the chattiness of the old list, >and that many people here may wish to keep this list firmly grounded in >more technical issues. I woudl rather not do the mandatory profile thing. I think we know each other well enough, and I'm frankly not interested in any heavy recruiting. I think we can handle a small amount of personal interaction... I just don;t want to see all of the conversation overwhelemd by off-topic chat. Id like to see that kept to a strict minimum. I think that personal items and thoughts are still appropriate, as long as they are along the lines of us getting to know each other better, and not just chatter and bantering and kidding and such. If someoen wants to post their hopes and dreams, or what their dream family or home would be like... that seems more appropriate than "I had a really nice day at the aquarium and I thought I'd tell you all about it!" >Secondly, would anyone mind if I posted some messages from other lists >regarding construction techniques, land acquisition, and other relevant >topics? I'll try not to overwhelm, but I think that there is a lot of >relevant info in them. Post away! You've found some good stuff before! Coyote - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dave Price Subject: Re: (hdproject) Crops Date: 26 Apr 1999 15:49:59 -0500 Regarding crop rotation, it's a pretty standard intensive/organic gardening technique. It's a little more sophisticated than just "rotating" crops - it depends on the kind of nutrients different plants deposit and remove from the soil, and using complementarty combinations. This is a very simplistic rendition - there are lots of techniques out there for high-yield organic gardening, particularly small scale stuff. I don't have any websites on hand, but I reccomend you look into the work done by John Jeavons and Alan Chadwick in this area. There's lots of books on this out there, and I'll be looking into them as soon as my time and budget allows. Exact methods will depend on where you are and what you decide to grow. Also, I highly reccomend getting a subscription to Mother Earth News. It's one of the best magazines out there on this subject and other aspects of country living. This topic actually raises an interesting question - do people here actually plan on trying to farm for money, 100% self-sufficiency, or just as a dietary supplement? I'm more inclinced towards just keeping a large garden to keep us in vegetables and fruits. Farming for profit is a losing game in the economy we currently have, and I've been told that 100% self-sufficiency in a farm (i.e. eating only what you can produce) is a tremendous amount of effort. Personally, I'd rather keep a large garden and maybe a very few animals, and spend my time earning money with which to buy the rest. Total escape from civilization is not my objective. luck, =Timber= - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Digital Dragon Subject: RE: (hdproject) Crops Date: 26 Apr 1999 19:14:15 -0500 (EST) On Mon, Apr 26, 1999, at 03:49 PM, Dave Price wrote: >> This topic actually raises an interesting question - do people here >> actually plan on trying to farm for money, 100% self-sufficiency, or just >> as a dietary supplement? I'm more inclinced towards just keeping a large >> garden to keep us in vegetables and fruits. This would be the ideal situation. But we do need to be prepared to go to full self-suffeciency should the time come. What are the plans regarding food storage. This is something to be looked into regardless. In SA we survived drought conditions because we had stockpiled what we could ('we' being the government). Thus we were able to not only support ourselves, but other countries that has the need. -----snip----- >> Total escape from civilization is not my objective. Nor is it mine. I'm just saying we should be prepared. =Digi _ _ Digital Dragon, Clan Stormchaser o--------------------o //___// digidrag@discovernet.net | Team POV & *Amiga* | /____/ ( http://www.discovernet.net/~digidrag | A1200 50MHz 34Mb |/^ ^/( ICQ: 21109302 IRC : Digi2 o--------------------/ ---- /;/ alt.fan.dragons, Alfandria MUCK : Digi /_____//// alt.lifestyle.furry, Furry MUCK: Digi `v---v'// "Dragons hold the true spirit of life." `===='~ DC.?(D,t) f++ s+ h-- Cg|b,t:b a+ $+ m d+++ WL++*/WL+^* Fr-- L z e+++ g i-- - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Osborne Subject: Re: (hdproject) Crops Date: 26 Apr 1999 19:14:57 -0400 Digi Wrote: >One thing that I have not seen mentioned in this thread is Crop Rotation. >This is something that needs to be done so we don't end up with dead land. You are absoolutely correct. >This means that we need to have at least 3 plots to use, if we are to do >this effectively. While one plot is being used, the other 2 can be used for >something else. Well... yeah... for just about everything, you want to let the soil rest. Usually you have four plots and rotate one out each cycle. In addition, you also want to alternate types of plants... certain plants restore nutrients that other plants remove. In a greenhouse, you mix in compost and such to rejuvenate the soil. Part of organic gardening practice is making sure that you refresh the soil. Whatever you remove, you must later return and replenish. Ideally with things you get from the same place. Remember, also that you don;t necessarily need huge tracts of land . Raised bed and other forms of "concentrated" gardening don't take up as much space. Another suggestion that Organic gardening methods seem to have is that you have a variety of plants growing together... even some that may not be of direct use to you (marigolds to keep bugs off yer other plants for instance)... this makes it inconvenient to do mechanical picking... but we're not likely to be doing that anyway. Coyote --- Why do I think U-Haul is Evil? Planning to rent a truck? Before you do, please read about my Nightmare in Moving at: http://www.coyotes.org/~consumer/index.phtml --- John "Coyote" Osborne 113 Highland Park Drive, Athens GA, 30605-3577 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Osborne Subject: (hdproject) Crops & Independance Date: 26 Apr 1999 19:32:27 -0400 Timber Wrote: >This topic actually raises an interesting question - do people here >actually plan on trying to farm for money, 100% self-sufficiency, or just >as a dietary supplement? I'd like to be as self-suffiecient as possible... as far as vegetation goes at the least. In othe words, I don;t mind gettign supplemental food and food we can't or don;t grow from other sources... but I'd like that to be a luxury, not a necessity. I'd at least like to grow our own staples. I would rather not farm for money. IMHO, it's a losing proposition, except maybe for novelty/specialty stuff. If we grow herbs and make our own herb shampoo, we might make a small profit outta that if we're lucky... but as foodstuff, I think the current "plight of the american farmer" shows us that is a losing proposition. If it is a pain to grow food for ourselves, imagine how much moreso to grow food for many many people we'll never see? > Farming for profit is a losing >game in the economy we currently have, and I've been told that 100% >self-sufficiency in a farm (i.e. eating only what you can produce) is a >tremendous amount of effort. I think if you only have a couple of people it is a pain... but many hands make light work. The big problem, I think, is that you just cannot grow every single thing you might want every year. I'd say we should focus on staples and things that are cheaper to grow than to buy, at least at first. And we should always try to grow more than we need and preserve and can teh rest. Speaking of which... I'm working on a great canning and preserving book at work.. the University of Georgia college of Agriculture has been doing "So Esay to Preserve" for years.. and this year I'm the typesetter It's about 400 pages of recipes, instructions, descriptions etc. for canned goods, preserves, dried foods, veggies, meats, etc. I've been drooling over it. It has everything from gourmet recipe type stuff to canned squirrel! I'll be getting a couple copies, and of course will have the electronic text of the whole thing. >Personally, I'd rather keep a large garden >and maybe a very few animals, and spend my time earning money with which to >buy the rest. Gardens, at least, do not move, bleat, moo or poop. I think some goats will be pretty easy, and a few chikens are no trouble. I'd rather not have a whole herd of large animals.. especially at the beginning. Rabbits (if no ons is squeamish about eating bunnies) are decent as food animals. Ducks are great. Birds are relatively low-maintenance as long as you don;t get the weird superbreeder dumb-as-gravel-non-broody kind. You get eggs, down and meat, and they are easy to feed and house. ducks are really easy. You feed em and they stay around. Gees make good watchdogs, and can help cut down on any accidental depredations by domestic pets like dogs. Geese can be rather bellicose, you see. ; ) Big problem with goats, is that while yummy and while they produce milk, they are clever enough to make it really easy to like them so you don;t wanna eat em. I find them so anyway. I've even seen some people that keep a _few_ sheep, and it doesn;t look like they are _too_ annoying. All of the animals I've mentioned are relatively small... not like cows or pigs. they need to be sheltered, fed and given clean, safe environs. >Total escape from civilization is not my objective. I'd like civilization to be more of a luxury than a necessity too though --- Why do I think U-Haul is Evil? Planning to rent a truck? Before you do, please read about my Nightmare in Moving at: http://www.coyotes.org/~consumer/index.phtml --- John "Coyote" Osborne 113 Highland Park Drive, Athens GA, 30605-3577 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Corwyn J. Alambar" Subject: (hdproject) Farming and Crops Date: 26 Apr 1999 17:42:26 -0700 (PDT) Some comments from this side: At a friend's recommendation I picked up a book on a concept called permaculture - an idea of creating a n ecosystem that generates excess food that can be harvested. It has some very intersting ideas, and the point is that it is self sustaining after the first few years as long as you don't take all the seeds away. There are some good examples in what I've perused - such things as using rice as part ofa permaculture, and 6' tall "towers of flowers" that allow you to grow arid-weather and rain-forest crops within a few feet of each other. n the meat and livestock end... It may be unavoidable to consider some manner of large stock - pigs, cattle, horses... They are quite valuable, particularly horses. Nothing sucks worse than having to trundle out to the property line (all mile long of it) with a 50 lb. bucket of nails and "posted" signs, on foot. ALso, horses don't break down like tractors do, and can often feed themselves (to a limited extent) off the local herbiage. Rabbits are useful - 28 days from birth to table, and they provide soft fur that can be used in a number of places. Chickens are good, if a bit stressful on the environment. I have never attempted to subsist upon goat's milk - how many goats are required to produce milk for a group as large as ours? Additionally, the first few years we will be buying staples, then we will produce enough ,then we will begin to produce a surplus - so the problem about not being able to grow everythign we'll want to eat becomes somewhat moot with crop rotations. If tomatoes are in the rotation this time, then plant a lot and put up spaghetti sauce, steamed tomatoes, etc. Then next year we could grow corn, instead, and put up extras of that as well. Just some thoughts here... -Corey - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Digital Dragon Subject: RE: (hdproject) Crops & Independance Date: 26 Apr 1999 22:20:54 -0500 (EST) On Mon, Apr 26, 1999, at 07:32 PM, Coyote Osborne wrote: >> Gardens, at least, do not move, bleat, moo or poop. I think some >> goats will be pretty easy, and a few chikens are no trouble. I'd rather >> not have a whole herd of large animals.. especially at the beginning. >> Rabbits (if no ons is squeamish about eating bunnies) are decent as food >> animals. I recently had rabbit for the first time. I must say that although it really does taste like chicken, I found a lot more tasty than the bird. Here's a thought for the veggie patch: What about soya? It's high-protein and can be substituted into all sorts of things. =Digi _ _ Digital Dragon, Clan Stormchaser o--------------------o //___// digidrag@discovernet.net | Team POV & *Amiga* | /____/ ( http://www.discovernet.net/~digidrag | A1200 50MHz 34Mb |/^ ^/( ICQ: 21109302 IRC : Digi2 o--------------------/ ---- /;/ alt.fan.dragons, Alfandria MUCK : Digi /_____//// alt.lifestyle.furry, Furry MUCK: Digi `v---v'// "Dragons hold the true spirit of life." `===='~ DC.?(D,t) f++ s+ h-- Cg|b,t:b a+ $+ m d+++ WL++*/WL+^* Fr-- L z e+++ g i-- - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Spyder Subject: Re: (hdproject) Miscellany, absence Date: 26 Apr 1999 21:44:58 -0600 At 2:47 PM -0400 4/26/1999, Coyote wrote: => => I think we can handle a small amount of personal interaction... I just => don;t want to see all of the conversation overwhelemd by off-topic chat. Id => like to see that kept to a strict minimum. That's why we're keeping the other list -- to fill our daily thrope chat quota. ;1 Spyder "We're living at the end of a world and the beginning of a NEW one." - Fenris, April 1999 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Spyder Subject: Re: (hdproject) Crops Date: 26 Apr 1999 21:47:33 -0600 At 3:49 PM -0500 4/26/1999, Dave Price wrote: => => This topic actually raises an interesting question - do people here => actually plan on trying to farm for money, 100% self-sufficiency, or just => as a dietary supplement? I'm more inclinced towards just keeping a large => garden to keep us in vegetables and fruits. Me, too. I can see us raising our own fruit, food, and small game, but hardly opening a roadside stand with 'hormone free werewolf grown raspberries!' =1 Of course, Eugene has a wonderful Saturday market every weekend, so if we _do_ have a glut of one thing we can always unload it for a few bucks, too. =) Spyder "We're living at the end of a world and the beginning of a NEW one." - Fenris, April 1999 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rorschach Subject: Re: (hdproject) Miscellany, absence Date: 26 Apr 1999 22:35:55 -0700 (PDT) On Mon, 26 Apr 1999, Spyder wrote: > At 1:29 AM -0700 4/26/1999, Rorschach wrote: > => > => This depends on the audience. If everyone on the old list can see what > => is being posted on hdproject, I personally don't feel as comfortable > => going into private/spiritual/personal info. > > Nah, that's not hw it works -- people on either list are allowed to post > messages directly to the other list, whether or not they're subscribed to > it. That way, people can email this list to ask to be added to it or to ask > questions, and people here can email back with answers to questions... > Messages however are not crossposted automatically. =) Ah, OK. That is cool! > If the people on hdproject is > => basically the people on the cc list with the addition of new people by > => somehing like the sponsership (someone making a post asking if they should > => be included) > > What I was thinking will be nice is that if someone here has an objection > to someone joining, we can speak up when they request access. =) Makes it > sort of a group decision rather than one person take "responsibility" for > that person. How you are saying it (with people being able to voice their objections) seems the best way with how the lists are set up. . . Rors (Rorschach) | \ / | |/ """ \? A simple pattern of Black and White? //,\ /,\\ Within you can find images, reflections, maybe balance. \ |_| / We walk a risky path: alone, yet not: whole, yet fractured. `=' "Sometimes the wolves are silent and the moon is howling" - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rorschach Subject: Re: (hdproject) Crops Date: 26 Apr 1999 22:57:40 -0700 (PDT) On Mon, 26 Apr 1999, Dave Price wrote: > > This topic actually raises an interesting question - do people here > actually plan on trying to farm for money, 100% self-sufficiency, or just > as a dietary supplement? I'm more inclinced towards just keeping a large > garden to keep us in vegetables and fruits. Farming for profit is a losing > game in the economy we currently have, and I've been told that 100% > self-sufficiency in a farm (i.e. eating only what you can produce) is a > tremendous amount of effort. Personally, I'd rather keep a large garden > and maybe a very few animals, and spend my time earning money with which to > buy the rest. Total escape from civilization is not my objective. I agree that farming for profit is a losing proposition. Selling produce may end up a handy way to make a little extra money (if we end up growing too much of something and son't end up giving it away or trading to the neighbors) but it is definitely not a serious income source. I agree that a large garden and some animals may be the best solution, especially in the near term. It provides a very good suplement to our food and also lets us decide if we want to (or are even able to) expand further. I would love to see us able to provide (through raising and hunting) most of the meat that we eat if at all possible. A lot of the meat that is on the market is getting more and more artificial and has increasing amounts of chemical "additives". Animals that we are raising we have control over what gets fed to them. Something that I would like to see is for us to have the possibility of sufficiency farming exist. Having the tools, materials, and skills in place would be a good thing. (From what I can see it is really not that different a set of materials than we would need for gardening, main difference would be the amount of time spent.) Actually this does bring up a question, do we want to grow any of the carbohydrate staples ouselves (rice, wheat, etc)? . . Rors (Rorschach) | \ / | |/ """ \? A simple pattern of Black and White? //,\ /,\\ Within you can find images, reflections, maybe balance. \ |_| / We walk a risky path: alone, yet not: whole, yet fractured. `=' "Sometimes the wolves are silent and the moon is howling" - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rorschach Subject: RE: (hdproject) Crops & Independance Date: 26 Apr 1999 23:26:25 -0700 (PDT) On Mon, 26 Apr 1999, Digital Dragon wrote: > I recently had rabbit for the first time. I must say that although it > really does taste like chicken, I found a lot more tasty than the bird. > Here's a thought for the veggie patch: What about soya? It's high-protein > and can be substituted into all sorts of things. Soy is, I think, a good staple crop. It's main problem form what I have heard, is that it has to be processed (I am not sure how actually) in some ways before it is actually edible. We would want to check into this processing and make sure it is something that we can and want to handle. Soy is a very good protien source and when cooked up (and more importantly spiced) right is usually very apetizing even to the carnivores, so it can end up being a decent supllement to the meat budget. . . Rors (Rorschach) | \ / | |/ """ \? A simple pattern of Black and White? //,\ /,\\ Within you can find images, reflections, maybe balance. \ |_| / We walk a risky path: alone, yet not: whole, yet fractured. `=' "Sometimes the wolves are silent and the moon is howling" - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: grigsby@netgate.net Subject: Re: (hdproject) Crops & Independance Date: 27 Apr 1999 02:04:36 -0700 This has come up before. My opinion: We gain the most by farming specialty items that would otherwise be very expensive (baby greens), things that taste much better or aren't available fresh (herbs, some fruits/nuts/berries), and things we can't get without driving to a big city (garlic, hot peppers). These groups usually overlap. We gain the least by farming cheaply available staples that store well (beans and grains). It would probably be fun to experiment with varieties on staples (amaranth, quinoa, heirloom wheats, and so on) and provide a backup source of seed in case of emergency. // grigs - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Digital Dragon Subject: RE: (hdproject) Crops Date: 27 Apr 1999 06:15:15 -0500 (EST) On Mon, Apr 26, 1999, at 10:57 PM, Rorschach wrote: > >> Actually this does bring up a question, do we want to grow any of the >> carbohydrate staples ouselves (rice, wheat, etc)? This may not be a bad idea. Potato pretty much grows itself if you let it. Rice OTOH I've no idea how to grow. From the plantations I've seen it requires lots of water. I think it grows in water. Also, one can make flour out of potato _and_ its a good source of vitamins. I'll admit right now that I'm no farmer, I'm just relating what I've seen in documentaries and stuff. =Digi _ _ Digital Dragon, Clan Stormchaser o--------------------o //___// digidrag@discovernet.net | Team POV & *Amiga* | /____/ ( http://www.discovernet.net/~digidrag | A1200 50MHz 34Mb |/^ ^/( ICQ: 21109302 IRC : Digi2 o--------------------/ ---- /;/ alt.fan.dragons, Alfandria MUCK : Digi /_____//// alt.lifestyle.furry, Furry MUCK: Digi `v---v'// "Dragons hold the true spirit of life." `===='~ DC.?(D,t) f++ s+ h-- Cg|b,t:b a+ $+ m d+++ WL++*/WL+^* Fr-- L z e+++ g i-- - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wontolla Subject: Re: (hdproject) Crops & Independance Date: 27 Apr 1999 11:02:35 -0400 > Timber Wrote: > This topic actually raises an interesting question - do people here actually > plan on trying to farm for money, 100% self-sufficiency, or just as a dietary > supplement? I wouldn't want to try to farm for money unless some relatively easy to grow high cash crop (LEGAL!) could be found. Basically that is sort of an oxymoron, farming tends to be incredibly low paying/labor intensive. Maybe there are some exceptions to this. I would like to see as close to self sufficiency as possible though, with the ability to cross the line into self sufficiency if needed. I am starting my first garden in about 12 years this spring. I'll keep you all posted on how it turns out. However, it will definitely be a losing proposition in terms of money vs just buying groceries for at least this year. After taking a good look at my stoney/sandy/clay soil and realizing that to grow anything I would need to do some major soil improvement I gritted my teeth bought a small gas powered tiller. After I finish getting all of those trees I bought in the ground I have to start hauling dirt/composted manure from my horse pens to till into my garden spot. For me though, the advantages of being able to grow non adulterated, irradiated, pesticided produce is one of the MAJOR perks of having land. BTW do all those springtime pesticide/herbicide lawn commercials creep anybody else out as much as they do me? Want a nice green lawn? Spray poison on it! Now go out and play on it. Gee, why IS the cancer/alzhiemers/parkinsons rate so high?....Shudder. Wontolla wontolla@netonecom.net - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Yhoneska Imtayme Subject: Re: (hdproject) Miscellany, absence Date: 28 Apr 1999 19:32:13 -0400 On Mon, 26 Apr 1999 14:52:23 -0400 Coyote writes: >I like that idea much better. I fear that the only thing sponsorship will >do is give us someone to blame if the sponsored newbie is a pain... >and who cares about blame? > >I know that is ntohat is intended, but that is what I fear. > >I would rather use Spyder's idea for this particular thing. > >Coyote I like the idea of sponcership, just because it means someone has taken the time to get to know the person being sponcered. I wish to bring up again the suggestion of a small questionaire being sent to the prospect and posting the answers and letting us all comment. This could be in addition to sponcership or in place of it. Regardless, I want everyone to make it thier duty to SPEAK UP before someone is allowed on the list. Let us all agree to at least that... Just some random (and more serious) Yhoni thoughts.... ~Yhoni~ ICQ # 35572191 ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Digital Dragon Subject: (hdproject) Note Date: 30 Apr 1999 23:05:52 -0400 (EST) There may be one by the name of Darkside wanting to sub to the other list. I've not mentioned this one at all ad I'm not sure of him, save that he is on the UOF/Avellana list as well. Could someone point him to the public page as I don't know the URL for that. =Digi _ _ Digital Dragon, Clan Stormchaser o--------------------o //___// digidrag@discovernet.net | Team POV & *Amiga* | /____/ ( http://www.discovernet.net/~digidrag | A1200 50MHz 34Mb |/^ ^/( ICQ: 21109302 IRC : Digi2 o--------------------/ ---- /;/ alt.fan.dragons, Alfandria MUCK : Digi /_____//// alt.lifestyle.furry, Furry MUCK: Digi `v---v'// "Dragons hold the true spirit of life." `===='~ DC.?(D,t) f++ s+ h-- Cg|b,t:b a+ $+ m d+++ WL++*/WL+^* Fr-- L z e+++ g i-- - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages.