From: Coyote Osborne Subject: RE: (hdproject) Crops Date: 01 May 1999 18:36:57 -0400 Digi Wrote: >What are the plans regarding >food storage. This is something to be looked into regardless. Well... there are loads of ways to preserve foods... ad loads fo reasons for doing so. Canning, Drying. Preserving, Pickling and Freezing. Canning works by killing off bacteria and destroying enzymes that cause spoilage, then packing foods in containers that don;t allow more organisms to get in. Home canning usually uses glass jars, but is still referred to as canning. Foods are usually cooked prior to canning. Drying works by reducing the moisture content of food to a degree that retards or prevents bacterial growth and enzymatic activity. You can dry meats (especially in the form of jerky). Vegetables and fruits are commonly dried, then reconstituted with water later. t'shai and I have made lots of dried apples slices, banana chips, dried greens, etc. Also, beans, grains and spices are preserved by drying. Some things are roasted prior to drying. Smoking is also used. Less water is removed, but the Ph of the food is changed enough that it is less hospitable to bacteria. Preserving works similar to canning, but also uses high sugar content from fruits or added sugar to make the environment less hospitable to germs. Examples include syrups, jams and jellies. Pickling works by placing foods into substances that preserve by being hostile to bacterial growth... generally vinegar or brine or other high-acid solutions. Relishes, Cucumber pickles, sauerkraut, chutneys, and more are examples of pickled foods. You can even pickle eggs and meats. Salt-packing is a form of pickling. Freezing works nicely, but has a constant energy requirement. Also... an icehouse may not do us well enough after all... except for refrigeration purposes. It seems that for real freezing, you must have temperatures at or below 0 degrees Fahreneheit (-18 degrees Celsius). Foods that will keep well for a year at 0F will only keep for a couple months at 20F. Refrigeration is for short-term storage of foods... usually foods you want to use soon. Like milk or eggs. Freezing is for long-term storage. These methods of storage will probably require a few days work per year, but will be soemwhat labor-intensive for those few days. It can be fun though. Of them all... drying is the easiest. We would need to obtain ascorbic acid for some processes... like most canning. Some foods need to be made more acidic to preserve freshness. Ascorbic acid is Vitamin C. If anyone has ever heard of "sour salt" that is it. Citrus juice or vinegar can be substituted if all you need to do is change the Ph, but obviously they are not as efficient and can alter the taste. I'll be adding "So Easy to Preserve" to the HD library soon . Coyote --- Why do I think U-Haul is Evil? Planning to rent a truck? Before you do, please read about my Nightmare in Moving at: http://www.coyotes.org/~consumer/index.phtml --- John "Coyote" Osborne 113 Highland Park Drive, Athens GA, 30605-3577 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Osborne Subject: Re: (hdproject) Farming and Crops Date: 01 May 1999 18:47:54 -0400 >Some comments from this side: > >At a friend's recommendation I picked up a book on a concept called >permaculture - an idea of creating a n ecosystem that generates excess food >that can be harvested. Well.. specifically, permaculture means sustainable culture... indefinitely sustainable. It's the idea that you create a self-sustaining system, and don't overtax it. I REALLY like that idea. >things as using rice as part ofa permaculture, and 6' tall "towers of flowers" >that allow you to grow arid-weather and rain-forest crops within a few >feet of >each other. Neat! >n the meat and livestock end... > >It may be unavoidable to consider some manner of large stock - pigs, cattle, >horses... I like the idea of horses... horses do "break down" though if you don;t care for them properly. As living beings, they are vulnerable to disease and injury. They must be well-cared for... but I don;t mind that. I like horses. Horses also can make more horses... and also importantly, they produce horse poop , which is good for tomatoes and roses and other plants. >Rabbits are useful - 28 days from birth to table, and they provide soft fur >that can be used in a number of places. Chickens are good, if a bit stressful >on the environment. I have never attempted to subsist upon goat's milk - >how many goats are required to produce milk for a group as large as ours? Dunno... but I understand that weight for weight, goats produce lots more milk than cows. You need more goats than cows, but overall they consume less food. There are goats in all sizes and kinds too. There are milking goats, meat goats and wool goats. >Additionally, the first few years we will be buying staples, then we will >produce enough ,then we will begin to produce a surplus - so the problem about >not being able to grow everythign we'll want to eat becomes somewhat moot with >crop rotations. If tomatoes are in the rotation this time, then plant a lot >and put up spaghetti sauce, steamed tomatoes, etc. Then next year we could >grow corn, instead, and put up extras of that as well. Well.. there will probably always be some thigns we must grow each year, and some things we wont; be able to grow (I cannot imagine we'll be growing any kiwis or coffee beans or chocolate, though it would be really neat if we could.) I wonder if we can get tea (Camellia sinensis?) to grow... there is apparently only ONE plantation in the USA that produces tea (and frankly, I've had some and it wasn;t that great). All the rest is imported. Other relatives of tea grow all over the North American continent. Tea has been shown to (probably) contribute to a longer lifespan, even though, like coffee it has caffeine. Supposedly it is gentler on the system and supposedly helps the kidneys to remove toxins without being unduly irritating to the kidneys. Coyote --- Why do I think U-Haul is Evil? Planning to rent a truck? Before you do, please read about my Nightmare in Moving at: http://www.coyotes.org/~consumer/index.phtml --- John "Coyote" Osborne 113 Highland Park Drive, Athens GA, 30605-3577 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Osborne Subject: RE: (hdproject) Crops & Independance Date: 01 May 1999 18:51:37 -0400 Digi Wrote: >I recently had rabbit for the first time. I must say that although it >really does taste like chicken, I found a lot more tasty than the bird. I like rabbit. I think it's nummy. It is _s_o low-fat that you have to add fat from some other source in order for it to be a healthy addition to a diet. That simply means you cannot live on rabbit alone. >Here's a thought for the veggie patch: What about soya? It's high-protein >and can be substituted into all sorts of things. True... but doesnt; it require special techniques to grow in bulk? It;'s worth looking into. We also wanna make sure it isn;t something that ravages the soil. I don;t think it is. Bean curd can be gotten from it, and either used as is, added to other foods, or dried and preserved as powder or flakes. In that form it can be used as an extender for flour, or an egg substitute among other things. Coyote --- Why do I think U-Haul is Evil? Planning to rent a truck? Before you do, please read about my Nightmare in Moving at: http://www.coyotes.org/~consumer/index.phtml --- John "Coyote" Osborne 113 Highland Park Drive, Athens GA, 30605-3577 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Osborne Subject: Re: (hdproject) Crops Date: 01 May 1999 18:55:20 -0400 Rors Wrote: >Actually this does bring up a question, do we want to grow any of the >carbohydrate staples ouselves (rice, wheat, etc)? I think that most of those take a lot of space and work, don;t they? How about we find the most efficient ones, as far as nutrition and yield, and start looking into the most efficient ways to produce the stuff we want? We need to find out how much wheat (or other grain) is required to make, say, a pound of flour, and how much space it takes to grow that amount before we can decide that. Coyote --- Why do I think U-Haul is Evil? Planning to rent a truck? Before you do, please read about my Nightmare in Moving at: http://www.coyotes.org/~consumer/index.phtml --- John "Coyote" Osborne 113 Highland Park Drive, Athens GA, 30605-3577 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Osborne Subject: RE: (hdproject) Crops & Independance Date: 01 May 1999 18:57:39 -0400 rors Wrote: >Soy is, I think, a good staple crop. It's main problem form what I have >heard, is that it has to be processed (I am not sure how actually) in some >ways before it is actually edible. We would want to check into this >processing and make sure it is something that we can and want to handle. You can eat the beans like any other bean. The processing you heard about is required to get bean curd. As I recall... it needs to be fermented in liquid, then the curd is pressed out of that. >Soy is a very good protien source and when cooked up (and more >importantly spiced) right is usually very apetizing >even to the carnivores, so it can end up being a decent supllement to the >meat budget. With other sources of protein it's nutritious. And it has VERY little flavor of it's own, so it is good for adding to all sorts of other things. Coyote --- Why do I think U-Haul is Evil? Planning to rent a truck? Before you do, please read about my Nightmare in Moving at: http://www.coyotes.org/~consumer/index.phtml --- John "Coyote" Osborne 113 Highland Park Drive, Athens GA, 30605-3577 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Osborne Subject: RE: (hdproject) Crops Date: 01 May 1999 19:00:34 -0400 >This may not be a bad idea. Potato pretty much grows itself if you let it. >Rice OTOH I've no idea how to grow. From the plantations I've seen it >requires lots of water. I think it grows in water. Yeah, it does. It needs to be growing in water for at least part of it's life cycle. >Also, one can make flour out of potato _and_ its a good source of vitamins. By itself it makes VERY heavy flour though. Ideally when used as flour you mix it with other thigns, like wheat or rye or the like. You can make flour out of corn too. Sweet potatoes are a good source of energy, vitamins and are an easy-to-grow starch. Coyote --- Why do I think U-Haul is Evil? Planning to rent a truck? Before you do, please read about my Nightmare in Moving at: http://www.coyotes.org/~consumer/index.phtml --- John "Coyote" Osborne 113 Highland Park Drive, Athens GA, 30605-3577 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Osborne Subject: Re: (hdproject) Miscellany, absence Date: 01 May 1999 19:02:08 -0400 Yhoni Wrote: >addition to sponcership or in place of it. Regardless, I want everyone >to make it thier duty to SPEAK UP before someone is allowed on the list. >Let us all agree to at least that... On that I agree. Coyote --- Why do I think U-Haul is Evil? Planning to rent a truck? Before you do, please read about my Nightmare in Moving at: http://www.coyotes.org/~consumer/index.phtml --- John "Coyote" Osborne 113 Highland Park Drive, Athens GA, 30605-3577 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Osborne Subject: (hdproject) Opinions, input and voting Date: 01 May 1999 19:08:36 -0400 I'd really like to see more people actually respond to questions like "should we do this?" or "Do we agree on this?" or other calls for opinion and assent. What has been happening as I see it, is that: * Silence has been accepted as equalling assent/agreement * A few noisy people always speak up, whiel the rest remain silent. That means that noisy noisy are effectively the ones that seem to be determining our course right now. It's amazing how quickly "We talked about that subject a while ago" becomes "We all agreed that we will do it like this". Now... I AM one of the noisy people, and it bothers _me_. I want to know what others think. Folks... when you see a question or call for response... please take the time to at least put forth your yes/no/don't know, okay? It's not like we'r eagreeing on anything earth-shaking or set in stone right this second... but we still all need to know how everyone feels. Even if all you say is "I hev no opinion", then at least the rest of us know you've seen the post and read it. Coyote --- Why do I think U-Haul is Evil? Planning to rent a truck? Before you do, please read about my Nightmare in Moving at: http://www.coyotes.org/~consumer/index.phtml --- John "Coyote" Osborne 113 Highland Park Drive, Athens GA, 30605-3577 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Digital Dragon Subject: RE: (hdproject) Farming and Crops Date: 02 May 1999 01:07:23 -0400 (EST) On Sat, May 1, 1999, at 06:47 PM, Coyote Osborne wrote: >> I wonder if we can get tea (Camellia sinensis?) to grow... there is >> apparently only ONE plantation in the USA that produces tea (and frankly, >> I've had some and it wasn;t that great). All the rest is imported. Other >> relatives of tea grow all over the North American continent. Tea has been >> shown to (probably) contribute to a longer lifespan, even though, like >> coffee it has caffeine. Supposedly it is gentler on the system and >> supposedly helps the kidneys to remove toxins without being unduly >> irritating to the kidneys. I don't like coffee anyway :) And I drink tea every day (at least one cup). Now we don't need actual "tea plants" as we can always mix our own blend of herbs. The only thing lacking would be the caffiene which the body does actually use. But that could be taken from choc or some other plant. There's a book out called "The Herb Book". It has about 500 plants in it with a description, what they are used for etc. I'll be picking up a copy next week probably, mostly as a supporting aid to my other book on herbs. =Digi _ _ Digital Dragon, Clan Stormchaser o--------------------o //___// digidrag@discovernet.net | Team POV & *Amiga* | /____/ ( http://www.discovernet.net/~digidrag | A1200 50MHz 34Mb |/^ ^/( ICQ: 21109302 IRC : Digi2 o--------------------/ ---- /;/ alt.fan.dragons, Alfandria MUCK : Digi /_____//// alt.lifestyle.furry, Furry MUCK: Digi `v---v'// "Dragons hold the true spirit of life." `===='~ DC.?(D,t) f++ s+ h-- Cg|b,t:b a+ $+ m d+++ WL++*/WL+^* Fr-- L z e+++ g i-- - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Digital Dragon Subject: RE: (hdproject) Opinions, input and voting Date: 02 May 1999 01:21:17 -0400 (EST) On Sat, May 1, 1999, at 07:08 PM, Coyote Osborne wrote: >> Folks... when you see a question or call for response... please take the >> time to at least put forth your yes/no/don't know, okay? It's not like >> we're agreeing on anything earth-shaking or set in stone right this second... >> but we still all need to know how everyone feels. >> >> Even if all you say is "I hev no opinion", then at least the rest of us >> know you've seen the post and read it. Personally I'm used to not sending one liners to posts. Old NG habit I'm afraid. Another thing is that I don't want to see the list flooded with such one word responses. I'm afraid that I'll get into a habit of deleting anything less than 1K. :( =Digi _ _ Digital Dragon, Clan Stormchaser o--------------------o //___// digidrag@discovernet.net | Team POV & *Amiga* | /____/ ( http://www.discovernet.net/~digidrag | A1200 50MHz 34Mb |/^ ^/( ICQ: 21109302 IRC : Digi2 o--------------------/ ---- /;/ alt.fan.dragons, Alfandria MUCK : Digi /_____//// alt.lifestyle.furry, Furry MUCK: Digi `v---v'// "Dragons hold the true spirit of life." `===='~ DC.?(D,t) f++ s+ h-- Cg|b,t:b a+ $+ m d+++ WL++*/WL+^* Fr-- L z e+++ g i-- - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Osborne Subject: RE: (hdproject) Opinions, input and voting Date: 02 May 1999 14:56:56 -0400 Digi Wrote: >>> Even if all you say is "I hev no opinion", then at least the rest of us >>> know you've seen the post and read it. > > >Personally I'm used to not sending one liners to posts. Old NG habit I'm >afraid. Another thing is that I don't want to see the list flooded with >such one word responses. Yes... but this is not a newsgroup. We need to have that kinda response sometiems, because there's no other way to know what people are thinking. Sure, some of us _might_ be psychic... ubt I doubt they are THAT good! Coyote --- Why do I think U-Haul is Evil? Planning to rent a truck? Before you do, please read about my Nightmare in Moving at: http://www.coyotes.org/~consumer/index.phtml --- John "Coyote" Osborne 113 Highland Park Drive, Athens GA, 30605-3577 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Derek Norris Subject: (hdproject) Voices Date: 02 May 1999 20:58:59 -0500 Howls I just thought that I should post so y'all know the gruff old wolf is still alive and out there somewhere. Ok...speaking of where I stand...currently I dont know. I would love to help set up the reality of HD, but I cant "grasp" it yet. There are too many damn loose ends left flapping in the wind. Rors...to help me out, I require some info from you. I need to know info about the local area...like cost of living. One thing that everyone must understand is that you cant just spontaneously head west to HD. You have to plan WAY ahead. Jobs, place to live, money, and lots of other things that add up. A while back, someone brought up the idea of starting out with a bunch of "were-houses" across the country. I think that that is a critical step in the whole plan. This is something we all should discuss deeper. My take on the whole Dream is that I will move to wherever I can get a good job, possibly start a werehouse, and work on making the dream a reality. Wolfmage - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Digital Dragon Subject: RE: (hdproject) Voices Date: 03 May 1999 00:58:11 -0400 (EST) On Sun, May 2, 1999, at 08:58 PM, Derek Norris wrote: > >> My take on the whole Dream is that I will move to wherever I can get a >> good job, possibly start a werehouse, and work on making the dream a reality. Agreed. This is what I'm trying to do by moving in with Coyote and T'shai. If only I could get a job there though. Grrrr! =Digi _ _ Digital Dragon, Clan Stormchaser o--------------------o //___// digidrag@discovernet.net | Team POV & *Amiga* | /____/ ( http://www.discovernet.net/~digidrag | A1200 50MHz 34Mb |/^ ^/( ICQ: 21109302 IRC : Digi2 o--------------------/ ---- /;/ alt.fan.dragons, Alfandria MUCK : Digi /_____//// alt.lifestyle.furry, Furry MUCK: Digi `v---v'// "Dragons hold the true spirit of life." `===='~ DC.?(D,t) f++ s+ h-- Cg|b,t:b a+ $+ m d+++ WL++*/WL+^* Fr-- L z e+++ g i-- - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Spyder Subject: (hdproject) Request to join from Fenris Date: 02 May 1999 23:16:28 -0600 I guess I wasn't 100% clear on how to request joining the list. =) Anyway, if there are no objections from the four quarters, I'll add him to hdproject as well. I know he's quite interested in helping make this happen, and quite serious. Voices/Yays/Nays? Spyder "We're living at the end of a world and the beginning of a NEW one." - Fenris, April 1999 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Digital Dragon Subject: RE: (hdproject) Request to join from Fenris Date: 03 May 1999 07:33:13 -0400 (EST) On Sun, May 2, 1999, at 11:16 PM, Spyder wrote: >> I guess I wasn't 100% clear on how to request joining the list. =) >> >> Anyway, if there are no objections from the four quarters, I'll add him to >> hdproject as well. I know he's quite interested in helping make this >> happen, and quite serious. Voices/Yays/Nays? Yae _ _ Digital Dragon, Clan Stormchaser o--------------------o //___// digidrag@discovernet.net | Team POV & *Amiga* | /____/ ( http://www.discovernet.net/~digidrag | A1200 50MHz 34Mb |/^ ^/( ICQ: 21109302 IRC : Digi2 o--------------------/ ---- /;/ alt.fan.dragons, Alfandria MUCK : Digi /_____//// alt.lifestyle.furry, Furry MUCK: Digi `v---v'// "Dragons hold the true spirit of life." `===='~ DC.?(D,t) f++ s+ h-- Cg|b,t:b a+ $+ m d+++ WL++*/WL+^* Fr-- L z e+++ g i-- - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Shadowscout" Subject: Re: (hdproject) Request to join from Fenris Date: 03 May 1999 12:14:21 -0500 >I guess I wasn't 100% clear on how to request joining the list. =) > >Anyway, if there are no objections from the four quarters, I'll add him to >hdproject as well. I know he's quite interested in helping make this >happen, and quite serious. Voices/Yays/Nays? >--------------------------------------------- > Spyder no problem here. Shadowscout --- shadowscout@earthlink.net ICQ 5260803 If you had any idea what was going on in the minds of the seemingly normal people all around you, you'd run for your life. - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wontolla Subject: Re: (hdproject) Request to join from Fenris Date: 03 May 1999 13:53:39 -0400 Regarding Fenris joining hdproject: Hmm, how to put this. His last few posts to the regular hd list have been a bit on the drama laden side. I grant that he may be deadly serious about everything he writes, but it all sounds more than a little like role playing to me, complete with shadowy secret organizations threatening his life. That said, he has always been very courteous, pleasant and well mannered on the other list. It seems to me that there are others who have much more personal contact with him who have spoken in favor of him. I am afraid that I will abstain from lack of enough information. Wontolla wontolla@netonecom.net - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Glenda Woodrum Subject: Re: (hdproject) Request to join from Fenris Date: 03 May 1999 16:21:17 -0500 >Regarding Fenris joining hdproject: I know little about him so... I too will refain from voting here. t'shai k. Author/poet 156 North Church Street Bogart, GA 30622 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Subject: Re: (hdproject) Request to join from Fenris Date: 03 May 1999 16:38:23 -0400 >I guess I wasn't 100% clear on how to request joining the list. =) > >Anyway, if there are no objections from the four quarters, I'll add him to >hdproject as well. I know he's quite interested in helping make this >happen, and quite serious. Voices/Yays/Nays? Fine with me. - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSale31114@aol.com Subject: Re: (hdproject) Request to join from Fenris Date: 03 May 1999 17:21:45 EDT In a message dated 5/3/99 2:19:30 PM CST, editorg@home.com writes: > >Regarding Fenris joining hdproject: > > > > I know little about him so... I too will refain from voting here. I wish I knew a lot more about him too. Had a disturbing experience once with someone suffering from MPD(multiple personality disorder) that completely lost it while on the muck one night. Some of that person's rambling sounded vaguely like Fenris ramblings about stuff now. Oh bother... Decisions Decisions Sure, let him join the private list. As long as Fenris understands we shouldn't stray too much from our topics and is considerate of others I don't see any real problems. Flenser - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Spyder Subject: Re: (hdproject) Request to join from Fenris Date: 03 May 1999 18:48:07 -0600 At 1:53 PM -0400 5/3/1999, Wontolla wrote: => Regarding Fenris joining hdproject: => => Hmm, how to put this. His last few posts to the regular => hd list have been a bit on the drama laden side. => I grant that he may be deadly serious about everything => he writes, but it all sounds more than a little => like role playing to me, complete with shadowy => secret organizations threatening his life. Mmm, I can see that. =1 I told him I'd let him tell everyone when he was ready, but I feel the need to share just a little with everyone. About 8 years ago he had a bad accident. It's resulted in some neurological damage which he will likely never recover fully from, and which will likely kill him in time. He also (as I'm sure you noticed =1) doesn't speak English very fluently, and sometimes doesn't come across as he means to. I do know that he's filled with tremendous hope that HD will be the home he's always looked for, where he can be himself (sound familiar? =) I think that was in our original charter... But he's very afraid that we'll reject him based on his poor English and on his medical conditions. Since the ayes have it, I'm adding him to the list right now. =) Thanks for the response, everyone. Looks like this method of subscribing will work great, once the kinks are worked out... (Well, not _all_ the kinks. ;1) Spyder "We're living at the end of a world and the beginning of a NEW one." - Fenris, April 1999 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dave Price Subject: Re: (hdproject) Request to join from Fenris Date: 03 May 1999 22:49:22 -0500 At 11:16 PM 5/2/99 -0600, Spyder wrote: >Anyway, if there are no objections from the four quarters, I'll add him to >hdproject as well. I know he's quite interested in helping make this >happen, and quite serious. Voices/Yays/Nays? I suppose that as long as he is made aware that this is a list on implementation issues, and not a list for general discussion, I can raise no objections at this time. Today, Spyder wrote: > Since the ayes have it, I'm adding him to the list right now. =) Spyder, could you please wait a little longer before subscribing someone next time? Twenty-four hours is much too short of a time period for people to respond adequately, as only six people managed to do so before you added Fenris. Six out of twenty is not even a straight majority, much less a unanimous vote. Of those six, only four people actually responded in the affirmative - the others said they didn't know enough to judge. This is not, in my opinion, enough support to add someone to the list. If anyone would like to examine Fenris's posting record, I'd like to offer up the beta version of the Heart's Dream Archives. The address is: http://www.coyotes.org/~hdarchives/ Run a search for Fenris in the "From" field, and see what he's written since he joined. Please keep in mind that this is a beta - the archives to not run back past 1997 yet and there are still some bugs to work out. If you experience any problems, please let me know. luck, =Timber= - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KatmanDu Subject: Re: (hdproject) Request to join from Fenris Date: 03 May 1999 23:46:10 -0400 At 04:38 PM 5/3/99 -0400, you wrote: >>Anyway, if there are no objections from the four quarters, I'll add him to >>hdproject as well. I know he's quite interested in helping make this >>happen, and quite serious. Voices/Yays/Nays? No problems, as long as he realizes what's on topic and what's not. katmandu1@home.com - members.home.net/katmandu1 - katmandu@arches.uga.edu "If the real Jesus Christ was to stand up today, He'd be gunned down cold by the CIA. Oh, the lights that burn brightest behind stained glass will cast the darkest shadows upon the human heart. But GOD didn't build *himself* that throne. GOD doesn't live in Israel or Rome. GOD doesn't belong to the yankee dollar. GOD doesn't plant the bombs for Hezbollah. GOD doesn't even go to church. And GOD won't send us down to Allah to burn. No, GOD will remind us what we already know- that the human race is about to reap what it's sown. The World is on its elbows and knees; it's forgotten the message and worships the creed." -The The, "Armageddon Days are Here Again" - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Spyder Subject: Re: (hdproject) Request to join from Fenris Date: 04 May 1999 09:27:42 -0600 At 10:49 PM -0500 5/3/1999, Dave Price wrote: => => Spyder, could you please wait a little longer before subscribing someone => next time? Twenty-four hours is much too short of a time period for people => to respond adequately, as only six people managed to do so before you added => Fenris. I actually realized this before I saved the list file yesterday. =) Thought maybe I should wait a bit more at least for any more responses that might have come through _after_ adding him. =1 Spyder "We're living at the end of a world and the beginning of a NEW one." - Fenris, April 1999 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Spyder Subject: (hdproject) Direct any further nayes, comments on Fenris to me directly Date: 05 May 1999 00:49:36 -0600 ... I'm just about to go in and add him, as I haven't heard any replies to tto negative, only 5 ayes and 2 I-don't-cares/Lack-further-informations. =1 Spyder "We're living at the end of a world and the beginning of a NEW one." - Fenris, April 1999 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dave Price Subject: (hdproject) Renewable Energy resource Date: 07 May 1999 01:39:16 -0500 Here's something we might want to consider when selecting a site, particularly if we're aiming at living mostly off-grid: http://rredc.nrel.gov/ This site contains databases on the amount of solar and wind energy available at various points across the country, along with lots of other useful info on renewable energy sources. Naturally, these vary signifigantly with local conditions, but these databases give a rough idea of what we can expect from areas. It's also a very useful tool in seeing how much of a difference a tracking solar collector system makes over a non-tracking setup in average kilowatt-hours per square meter per day. For anybody that's interested, http://www.nrel.gov/ is also worth the trip for renewable energy in general. luck, =Timber= - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Digital Dragon Subject: (hdproject) Igloo for sale Date: 07 May 1999 07:29:26 -0400 (EST) Okay, now that I have your attention: What about winter conditions? Just how well insulated are the structures going to be? We are talking an area where it _does_ snow and not just a few inches. Me, I don't mind the cold too much, but even I have a limit, despite the fur I've been growing since December. =Digi _ _ Digital Dragon, Clan Stormchaser o--------------------o //___// digidrag@discovernet.net | Team POV & *Amiga* | /____/ ( http://www.discovernet.net/~digidrag | A1200 50MHz 34Mb |/^ ^/( ICQ: 21109302 IRC : Digi2 o--------------------/ ---- /;/ alt.fan.dragons, Alfandria MUCK : Digi /_____//// alt.lifestyle.furry, Furry MUCK: Digi `v---v'// "Dragons hold the true spirit of life." `===='~ DC.?(D,t) f++ s+ h-- Cg|b,t:b a+ $+ m d+++ WL++*/WL+^* Fr-- L z e+++ g i-- - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Osborne Subject: Re: (hdproject) Renewable Energy resource Date: 07 May 1999 10:37:44 -0400 >For anybody that's interested, >http://www.nrel.gov/ >is also worth the trip for renewable energy in general. Did anyone besides me notice, when doing their taxes this year, that the government gives tax incentives for using renewable or alternative energy sources and fuels? I don;t know if that's been around, but I never noticed it before this year. It might not be a bad idea to find out exactly what the guidelines and benefits are. Coyote --- Why do I think U-Haul is Evil? Planning to rent a truck? Before you do, please read about my Nightmare in Moving at: http://www.coyotes.org/~consumer/index.phtml --- John "Coyote" Osborne 113 Highland Park Drive, Athens GA, 30605-3577 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Osborne Subject: Re: (hdproject) Igloo for sale Date: 07 May 1999 10:39:46 -0400 >Okay, now that I have your attention: > >What about winter conditions? Just how well insulated are the structures >going to be? We are talking an area where it _does_ snow and not just a few >inches. >Me, I don't mind the cold too much, but even I have a limit, despite the >fur I've been growing since December. Well, if you mean the northwest in general, it does snow. But in Eugene, where the temporary location is being planned, the weather is very mild. I believe Rors said snow is rare there. Rors, didn;t you say it snows maybe an inch or two a year at best? Coyote --- Why do I think U-Haul is Evil? Planning to rent a truck? Before you do, please read about my Nightmare in Moving at: http://www.coyotes.org/~consumer/index.phtml --- John "Coyote" Osborne 113 Highland Park Drive, Athens GA, 30605-3577 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KatmanDu Subject: Re: (hdproject) Igloo for sale Date: 07 May 1999 14:45:32 -0400 At 10:39 AM 5/7/99 -0400, you wrote: >Well, if you mean the northwest in general, it does snow. But in Eugene, >where the temporary location is being planned, the weather is very mild. I >believe Rors said snow is rare there. Rors, didn;t you say it snows maybe >an inch or two a year at best? From what I've seen of weather forcasts, Eugene appears to be similar in climate to Athens; without the extremes of heat Athens has in the summer. This past winter was extremely mild, and this summer looks to be very hot and dry. Dry rainfall-wise; I'm sure it'll be the usual pleasant 90% humidity. :P As evidence of the mild winter, I picked up 20- count 'em, 20- seed ticks on various parts of my anatomy (including a rather sensitive part) while walking the dogs through the woods. Luckily, Lyme disease is still a relative rarity in Georgia. katmandu1@home.com - members.home.net/katmandu1 - katmandu@arches.uga.edu "If the real Jesus Christ was to stand up today, He'd be gunned down cold by the CIA. Oh, the lights that burn brightest behind stained glass will cast the darkest shadows upon the human heart. But GOD didn't build *himself* that throne. GOD doesn't live in Israel or Rome. GOD doesn't belong to the yankee dollar. GOD doesn't plant the bombs for Hezbollah. GOD doesn't even go to church. And GOD won't send us down to Allah to burn. No, GOD will remind us what we already know- that the human race is about to reap what it's sown. The World is on its elbows and knees; it's forgotten the message and worships the creed." -The The, "Armageddon Days are Here Again" - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSale31114@aol.com Subject: Re: (hdproject) Igloo for sale Date: 07 May 1999 15:04:43 EDT In a message dated 5/7/99 9:04:37 AM CST, coyote@coyotes.org writes: > >What about winter conditions? Just how well insulated are the structures > >going to be? We are talking an area where it _does_ snow and not just a few > >inches. > >Me, I don't mind the cold too much, but even I have a limit, despite the > >fur I've been growing since December. > > Well, if you mean the Northwest in general, it does snow. But in Eugene, > where the temporary location is being planned, the weather is very mild. I > believe Rors said snow is rare there. Rors, didn;t you say it snows maybe > an inch or two a year at best? Eugene is pretty nice. Gather it's sort of cold and miserable in other areas of the northwest. There's a mountain pass near that one location we were looking at named "Dead Indian Pass". Don't think he died of old age in that pass. :( Probably will need several utility buildings - best to make most of them A frames for strength with 2 X 10 in the walls for strength and lots of insulation. As for the main buildings, we still don't have a clear idea what sort of construction we should use. That will determine a lot of the other issues, insulation and stuff will be dependent on how we want to do things. Flenser - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wontolla Subject: Re: (hdproject) ticks (was Igloo for sale) Date: 07 May 1999 15:38:34 -0400 KatmanDu wrote: > As evidence of the mild winter, I picked up 20- count 'em, 20- > seed ticks on various parts of my anatomy (including a rather sensitive > part) while walking the dogs through the woods. Luckily, Lyme disease is > still a relative rarity in Georgia. Uh, Kat? You might want to get yourself checked... I talked a friend of mine into taking her daughter in to be checked for Lyme after she picked up a tick in Augusta, and she came up positive. The initial stages don't always have noticable symptoms and by the time you do get symptoms an awful lot of damage can be done. (It can really be deadly if you have any underlying heart problems). Wontolla (the worry wart) wontolla@netonecom.net - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wontolla Subject: Re: (hdproject) Renewable Energy resource Date: 07 May 1999 15:48:13 -0400 Coyote Osborne wrote: > Did anyone besides me notice, when doing their taxes this year, that the > government gives tax incentives for using renewable or alternative energy > sources and fuels? I don;t know if that's been around, but I never noticed > it before this year. > > It might not be a bad idea to find out exactly what the guidelines and > benefits are. > Do you remember where on the form it was? I couldn't find it... I probably will have to replace my cranky old furnace next fall and if I could get a tax break for some kind of renewable source it might help finance a more eco friendly system (read expensive) than I have. Wontolla wontolla@netonecom.net - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Corwyn J. Alambar" Subject: (hdproject) On the construction, etc. Date: 07 May 1999 12:48:54 -0700 (PDT) Hello, everyone! Well, it looks like things are finally moving to some degree - how many people are thinking they're gonna be staying in Eugene after the Gather? I plan on coming up for the weekend (it'll be a little touchy - I technically have no driving priviledges in Oregon (long story)) and getting to meet everyone finally. I also seem to have come into a small bit of money - nothing huge, but I also have friends that are helping me make it go a long way. Specifically, power tools. If we get into serious construction, I should be able to bring up a bench saw, bench router, power drill, and orbital sander at least for work (not for the Gather, of course, but if I come up to help with other things) I'd definitely be interested in helping build utility buildings - smaller projects where using some of these tools for just a weekend would assure it was fairly close to completion. I'll also keep an eye out for inexpensive used tools that I can simply donate, as well, which brings up a question: If we go to an alternative power setup (i.e. hydropower, solar), will we still be able to use power tools, or do we want to have the kind of maintenance and time that hand tools bring? Also, living in the house I'm in right now reminds me of an issue that we never really addressed in house design. WE have a music studio in the basement, and it is very well soundproofed - however the floor/ceiling barrier is not well soundproofed, and the upstairs walls aren't, either. I think that if we're looking at a communal housing setup, we might want to consider the possibility of doing that kind of soundproofing (not necessarilly full music studio, but enoguh that you're not holding conversations through the wall without raising your voice) in the living areas. Insulation, too, might be a good idea even indoors - if someone wants their room hot in the summer, and the other wants it cooler, there should be enough insulation to make it possible. It will also let us reduce heating bills in the winter by only heating those areas where people are likely to be. While I'm rambling, here's an idea: An adaptation of the ROman/Spanish villa, using some of the Japanese stylings as well. It allows for open, airy architecture, with a sheltered central area that is common to the entire building, allowing for a meditation garden sort of thing (possibly a small pool as well?) It shoudl be shaded in the summer by a deciduous tree or three, and in the winter is sheltered from blowing winds. I have other ideas, but I need to sketch them out first, and my scanner isn't up and running at the moment. But I babble - comments? -COrey - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSale31114@aol.com Subject: Re: (hdproject) On the construction, etc. Date: 07 May 1999 16:40:42 EDT In a message dated 5/7/99 1:49:13 PM CST, nettiger@best.com writes: > If we go to an alternative power setup (i.e. hydropower, solar), will we > still be able to use power tools, or do we want to have the kind of maintenance > and time that hand tools bring? Power tools at first as a matter of course, once we get some buildings up we can rest a little and start looking for 2 man saws and stuff. As long as we don't get earthquake or severe storms later on we should be able to get by with hand tools just fine. > Also, living in the house I'm in right now reminds me of an issue that we > never really addressed in house design. WE have a music studio in the basement, > and it is very well soundproofed - however the floor/ceiling barrier is not well > soundproofed, and the upstairs walls aren't, either. I think that if we're > looking at a communal housing setup, we might want to consider the > possibility of doing that kind of soundproofing (not necessarilly full music studio, > but enoguh that you're not holding conversations through the wall without > raising your voice) in the living areas. One of the reasons I like the idea of using brick so much. > While I'm rambling, here's an idea: An adaptation of the ROman/Spanish > villa, using some of the Japanese stylings as well. It allows for open, airy > architecture, with a sheltered central area that is common to the entire > building, allowing for a meditation garden sort of thing (possibly a small > pool as well?) It shoudl be shaded in the summer by a deciduous tree or > three, and in the winter is sheltered from blowing winds. I have other ideas, but > I need to sketch them out first, and my scanner isn't up and running at the > moment. > > But I babble - comments? What about 2 phases to building. We concentrate on simple, practical housing at first and then do our castles and villas in the second phase. A villa as the official community center would be nice. Flenser - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Corwyn J. Alambar" Subject: (hdproject) Villas, Castles, and other construction Date: 07 May 1999 14:15:02 -0700 (PDT) Warning - more rambling thoughts. I notice that when people start getting into designing their own housing, most of them tend to go for smaller spaces - not necessarilly in square footage, but definitely for more "closed in" architecture - witness the New England style "salt house" construction (those big blocky colonial things). Compare this to more aesthetically pleasing architecture, such as gothic castles, Roman villas, southern plantations and victorian manors - they tend to be open, airy structures that either figuratively or literally invite the landscape outside in to make it a part of the space. The idea of a vila for the community center makes a lot of sense (kudos, Flenser!) for a number of reasons. If we had only a few people living there, they could use a slightly partitioned living space, while the large kitchen, dining areas, and gathering areas were still available, maybe for more workshop space than actual comfortable relaxation space for the time being. It would also impress upon others that we weren't simply some cult of survivalist nutballs (what stereotype of survivalists does a large open structure represent, anyway?). IT also gives us a logical place to funnel visitors to the site, both invited and non, without giving the notion of a bunch of scattered buildings at subsitence level. It also lets us put on a good face to the authorities,neighbors, and other peopel wh ocould make trouble for us. Another architectural idea: There's an old maxim about farming: Any field produces two crops, stones and what you wanted, normally much more of the former than the latter. In the northeast, stone walls were extremely popular for a long time as pasture fencing, garden edging, and simply decorative work. Since we'll probably be dong a lot of excavation, there will be plenty of stone around that we'd have to dispose of in one way or another. While it might not make the best device for constructing entire buildings out of, it would be VERY useful int he construction of partitioning walls, workspaces, even small animal pens. More babbling... -Corey - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Spyder Subject: Re: (hdproject) Renewable Energy resource Date: 07 May 1999 18:14:30 -0600 At 10:37 AM -0400 5/7/1999, Coyote Osborne wrote: => => Did anyone besides me notice, when doing their taxes this year, that the => government gives tax incentives for using renewable or alternative energy => sources and fuels? I don;t know if that's been around, but I never noticed => it before this year. I think it crept up quietly a year or two ago. =) Certainly put a smile on my face to see them doing something worthwhile with all that crap for a change... Spyder "We're living at the end of a world and the beginning of a NEW one." - Fenris, April 1999 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Spyder Subject: Re: (hdproject) On the construction, etc. Date: 07 May 1999 18:19:59 -0600 At 12:48 PM -0700 5/7/1999, Corwyn J. Alambar wrote: => => While I'm rambling, here's an idea: An adaptation of the ROman/Spanish => villa, using some of the Japanese stylings as well. It allows for open, => airy architecture, with a sheltered central area that is common to the entire => building, allowing for a meditation garden sort of thing (possibly a small => pool as well?) It shoudl be shaded in the summer by a deciduous tree or =three, => and in the winter is sheltered from blowing winds. I have other ideas, =but I => need to sketch them out first, and my scanner isn't up and running at the => moment. Yes! YES!! =D Since I was a child, I've always wanted my first home (as in, the one I build/have built) to be a villa: you still have your lawn and trees and garden, but none of the pesky neighbors or neighborhood animals crapping on your precious plot of land. Of course, if we're out in the relative middle of nowhere, that's not such a concern. But if we end up even more rural than expected, I definitely would like to see this. It also allows for a lot more living space on the area alotted... Spyder "We're living at the end of a world and the beginning of a NEW one." - Fenris, April 1999 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Digital Dragon Subject: RE: (hdproject) On the construction, etc. Date: 07 May 1999 22:36:02 -0400 (EST) On Fri, May 7, 1999, at 12:48 AM, Corwyn J. Alambar wrote: >> Hello, everyone! >> >> Well, it looks like things are finally moving to some degree - how many >> people are thinking they're gonna be staying in Eugene after the Gather? I plan I doubt I'll be getting to the meet. I will be down in GA the first week of June though. >> If we go to an alternative power setup (i.e. hydropower, solar), will we >> still be able to use power tools, or do we want to have the kind of maintenance >> and time that hand tools bring? >> If said tools can run off a battery pack or something..... Insulation, too, might be a good idea >> even indoors - if someone wants their room hot in the summer, and the other >> wants it cooler, there should be enough insulation to make it possible. It will >> also let us reduce heating bills in the winter by only heating those areas >> where people are likely to be. >> Right now I'm wondering how the heating of various rooms in a building is going to work. I know there are various types of central heating, but can a renewable power source handle this? The reason I'm asking is because S.Africa doesn't have central heating. What we do have are house made pretty much entirely of brick. Heating is with area heaters (radiators, oil heaters, fan, elements, etc) Of course people can install AC in their home for cool air. Course what we are planning, ACs are not realistic. >> While I'm rambling, here's an idea: An adaptation of the ROman/Spanish >> villa, using some of the Japanese stylings as well. It allows for open, airy >> architecture, with a sheltered central area that is common to the entire >> building, allowing for a meditation garden sort of thing (possibly a small >> pool as well?) It shoudl be shaded in the summer by a deciduous tree or This is similar to what I what I had envisioned for the UOF setup. Living quarters on the outside with communal facilities in the center. =Digi _ _ Digital Dragon, Clan Stormchaser o--------------------o //___// digidrag@discovernet.net | Team POV & *Amiga* | /____/ ( http://www.discovernet.net/~digidrag | A1200 50MHz 34Mb |/^ ^/( ICQ: 21109302 IRC : Digi2 o--------------------/ ---- /;/ alt.fan.dragons, Alfandria MUCK : Digi /_____//// alt.lifestyle.furry, Furry MUCK: Digi `v---v'// "Dragons hold the true spirit of life." `===='~ DC.?(D,t) f++ s+ h-- Cg|b,t:b a+ $+ m d+++ WL++*/WL+^* Fr-- L z e+++ g i-- - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Digital Dragon Subject: RE: (hdproject) Villas, Castles, and other construction Date: 07 May 1999 22:45:46 -0400 (EST) On Fri, May 7, 1999, at 02:15 PM, Corwyn J. Alambar wrote: >> Warning - more rambling thoughts. >> >> I notice that when people start getting into designing their own housing, >> most of them tend to go for smaller spaces - not necessarilly in square >> footage, but definitely for more "closed in" architecture - witness the New England >> style "salt house" construction (those big blocky colonial things). >> Compare this to more aesthetically pleasing architecture, such as gothic castles, >> Roman villas, southern plantations and victorian manors - they tend to be >> open, airy structures that either figuratively or literally invite the >> landscape outside in to make it a part of the space. I'm for the airy rooms myself. On walls and stuff; I saw a news/documentary a few years ago on a project that uses compressed sand and stuff to make walls. Several houses were built and are quite sturdy.... if only I could remember the name of the company... They also showed some stuff about recycling... *smacks head* =Digi _ _ Digital Dragon, Clan Stormchaser o--------------------o //___// digidrag@discovernet.net | Team POV & *Amiga* | /____/ ( http://www.discovernet.net/~digidrag | A1200 50MHz 34Mb |/^ ^/( ICQ: 21109302 IRC : Digi2 o--------------------/ ---- /;/ alt.fan.dragons, Alfandria MUCK : Digi /_____//// alt.lifestyle.furry, Furry MUCK: Digi `v---v'// "Dragons hold the true spirit of life." `===='~ DC.?(D,t) f++ s+ h-- Cg|b,t:b a+ $+ m d+++ WL++*/WL+^* Fr-- L z e+++ g i-- - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mary Norris" Subject: Re: (hdproject) On the construction, etc. Date: 07 May 1999 22:35:06 CDT This all sounds pretty good. While Wolfmage and I won't be making it to the gather, it does look like he will be exiting the Air Force on time. This should put us in the area, if we can find job offers beforehand, by mid-September at the latest. We will probrably not be staying here in Abilene. The job market here sucks. What is the job market in Eugene like as of this time, Rors? Shadowscout signature under construction. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mary Norris" Subject: Re: (hdproject) Villas, Castles, and other construction Date: 07 May 1999 22:41:37 CDT Another architectural idea: There's an old maxim about farming: Any field produces two crops, stones and what you wanted, normally much more of the former than the latter. In the northeast, stone walls were extremely popular for a long time as pasture fencing, garden edging, and simply decorative work. Very true. My father and I went out in the summer and carted home the fieldstones, making raised bed gardens with them. (line up the stones, put the dirt, peat moss, and manure in, mix it up, and plant) They worked rather well. Shadowscout signature under construction. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KatmanDu Subject: Re: (hdproject) ticks (was Igloo for sale) Date: 08 May 1999 03:28:46 -0400 At 03:38 PM 5/7/99 -0400, you wrote: >Uh, Kat? You might want to get yourself checked... None of the tell-tales, like the bullseye rash or anything. I got 'em all off before the 24-36 hour infection period. katmandu1@home.com - members.home.net/katmandu1 - katmandu@arches.uga.edu "If the real Jesus Christ was to stand up today, He'd be gunned down cold by the CIA. Oh, the lights that burn brightest behind stained glass will cast the darkest shadows upon the human heart. But GOD didn't build *himself* that throne. GOD doesn't live in Israel or Rome. GOD doesn't belong to the yankee dollar. GOD doesn't plant the bombs for Hezbollah. GOD doesn't even go to church. And GOD won't send us down to Allah to burn. No, GOD will remind us what we already know- that the human race is about to reap what it's sown. The World is on its elbows and knees; it's forgotten the message and worships the creed." -The The, "Armageddon Days are Here Again" - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rorschach Subject: Re: (hdproject) Igloo for sale Date: 08 May 1999 01:30:48 -0700 At 10:39 AM 5/7/99 -0400, you wrote: >>Okay, now that I have your attention: >> >>What about winter conditions? Just how well insulated are the structures >>going to be? We are talking an area where it _does_ snow and not just a few >>inches. >>Me, I don't mind the cold too much, but even I have a limit, despite the >>fur I've been growing since December. > >Well, if you mean the northwest in general, it does snow. But in Eugene, >where the temporary location is being planned, the weather is very mild. I >believe Rors said snow is rare there. Rors, didn;t you say it snows maybe >an inch or two a year at best? Eugene gets very little snow. Snow falls and sticks for a couple days maybe a couple times a winter and I don't think I have ever seen more than 2" of snow. Winter temp is high 30's to mid 40's almost the entire winter with about 2 weeks or so at 20' (all ferenheit). Insulation is definitely good to have because it saves on heating but it is not a survival issue. . . Rors (Rorschach) | \ / | |/ """ \? A simple pattern of Black and White? //,\ /,\\ Within you can find images, reflections, maybe balance. \ |_| / We walk a risky path: alone, yet not: whole, yet fractured. `=' "Sometimes the wolves are silent and the moon is howling" - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rorschach Subject: Re: (hdproject) Igloo for sale Date: 08 May 1999 01:38:01 -0700 At 03:04 PM 5/7/99 EDT, you wrote: >In a message dated 5/7/99 9:04:37 AM CST, coyote@coyotes.org writes: > >> >What about winter conditions? Just how well insulated are the structures >> >going to be? We are talking an area where it _does_ snow and not just a >few >> >inches. >> >Me, I don't mind the cold too much, but even I have a limit, despite the >> >fur I've been growing since December. >> >> Well, if you mean the Northwest in general, it does snow. But in Eugene, >> where the temporary location is being planned, the weather is very mild. I >> believe Rors said snow is rare there. Rors, didn;t you say it snows maybe >> an inch or two a year at best? > >Eugene is pretty nice. Gather it's sort of cold and miserable in other areas >of the northwest. There's a mountain pass near that one location we were >looking at named "Dead Indian Pass". Don't think he died of old age in that >pass. :( Actually is a pretty low pass, more likely there is some other story to the name. (Such as gun happy settlers). One of the things about this area of Oregon is that you can pick your climate. >Probably will need several utility buildings - best to make most of them A >frames for strength with 2 X 10 in the walls for strength and lots of >insulation. As for the main buildings, we still don't have a clear idea what >sort of construction we should use. All depends on the use of the outbuilding as well. Have to balance the cost of the materials and insulation against the savings in heating. If it is something that we are not heating all the time, we do not need to hyper insulate it (materials are better spent on our living spaces). >That will determine a lot of the other issues, insulation and stuff will be >dependent on how we want to do things. A couple of the proposes methods are intrinsically insulating. Both the cordwood masonry and straw bale have a very high insulative value without adding any more insulation to it. Heavy insulation in the roof is the most important first step if we are converting an existing building as a huge amount of the heat lost goes through the roof. (Second only to the windows which can be insulated in a couple of ways). . . Rors (Rorschach) | \ / | |/ """ \? A simple pattern of Black and White? //,\ /,\\ Within you can find images, reflections, maybe balance. \ |_| / We walk a risky path: alone, yet not: whole, yet fractured. `=' "Sometimes the wolves are silent and the moon is howling" - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rorschach Subject: Re: (hdproject) On the construction, etc. Date: 08 May 1999 02:00:06 -0700 >If we go to an alternative power setup (i.e. hydropower, solar), will we still >be able to use power tools, or do we want to have the kind of maintenance and >time that hand tools bring? If we end up entirely on alternative power we should be able to run a small number of tools at a time without draining the system. For heavy construction (lots and/or big tools) it is time to pull out a generator and run it while we need the power. Spot use of a generator can make a drastic difference in the size of the power generation setup without being hugely polluting or costly. Alternative grid should be designed to run all the day to day (in other words pretty consistant) power needs with a bit of an excess for bad weather or short heavy use. Hand tools suck a huge amount of time for most uses, time which might be better spent doing other more fun or productive things. (Hobby use is different, there you are wasting time in an enjoyable manner : ). Air tools may be a good alternative to electrical. With a large air tank the compressor only has to be run once in a while and the possibility of building a compressor run directly by alternative sources (wind/water) exists which gets rid of a lot of waste converting mechanical energy to electricty and then back to mechanical energy. Hopefully the site we end up on will have access to the grid. This will make life a lot easier at start and will make the alternative generation an issue of security and pride rather than an outright neccesity. >Also, living in the house I'm in right now reminds me of an issue that we never >really addressed in house design. WE have a music studio in the basement, and >it is very well soundproofed - however the floor/ceiling barrier is not well >soundproofed, and the upstairs walls aren't, either. I think that if we're >looking at a communal housing setup, we might want to consider the possibility >of doing that kind of soundproofing (not necessarilly full music studio, but >enoguh that you're not holding conversations through the wall without raising >your voice) in the living areas. Insulation, too, might be a good idea even >indoors - if someone wants their room hot in the summer, and the other wants it >cooler, there should be enough insulation to make it possible. It will also >let us reduce heating bills in the winter by only heating those areas where >people are likely to be. I have always liked the idea of insulating the internal walls of a house (I often like to keep my room a bit cold but sometimes it feels bad to leave my window open knowing that I am sucking heat out of the rest of the house). There are some very nice methods of sound blocking inside walls which also have the handy side effect of providing a layer of insulation as well. A discussion of this (the sound issues) came up fairly recently and Grigsby has several good ways to insulate walls off. Sound travel tends to make ducting air harder (you have to make sure the air ducts aren't carrying a bunch of sound as well). There are ways around this, such as using water to transfer heat instead of air, circulating fresh air from the outside rather then from room to room, etc. >While I'm rambling, here's an idea: An adaptation of the ROman/Spanish villa, >using some of the Japanese stylings as well. It allows for open, airy >architecture, with a sheltered central area that is common to the entire >building, allowing for a meditation garden sort of thing (possibly a small >pool as well?) It shoudl be shaded in the summer by a deciduous tree or three, >and in the winter is sheltered from blowing winds. I have other ideas, but I >need to sketch them out first, and my scanner isn't up and running at the >moment. I really like this shape of building myself as well. . . Rors (Rorschach) | \ / | |/ """ \? A simple pattern of Black and White? //,\ /,\\ Within you can find images, reflections, maybe balance. \ |_| / We walk a risky path: alone, yet not: whole, yet fractured. `=' "Sometimes the wolves are silent and the moon is howling" - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rorschach Subject: RE: (hdproject) On the construction, etc. Date: 08 May 1999 02:13:58 -0700 At 10:36 PM 5/7/99 -0400, you wrote: >I doubt I'll be getting to the meet. I will be down in GA the first week of >June though. Will defintely miss you. Was looking forward to possibly being able to meet you. snip >Right now I'm wondering how the heating of various rooms in a building is >going to work. I know there are various types of central heating, but can a >renewable power source handle this? I like the idea of recirculating hot water (not steam) through radiators. I have lived in a very large building with this type of system in place and it worked very well. The only down side to it was that it took a little while for it to heat a space, but the heat was very consistant (which is a problem with wood stoves, they have to be pretty constantly tinkered with to get the heat level right). Hot water can be produced in from any number of heat sources and the same system can also be used to produce hot water for showers, etc. >The reason I'm asking is because S.Africa doesn't have central heating. >What we do have are house made pretty much entirely of brick. Heating is >with area heaters (radiators, oil heaters, fan, elements, etc) >Of course people can install AC in their home for cool air. > >Course what we are planning, ACs are not realistic. AC's are not, but convection coolers are. Simplest system is being used in India, take a straw bale that is not tightly packed (note straw, so it won't rot if damp) pour a gallon of water into it every once in a while and pull air through it with a fan. The water evaporates which sucks heat out of the air and drastically cools it down. It does add some humidity, but apparently not an intolerable amount. I know that there are commercial units that use this same process (I have heard them called "Swamp Coolers") and they use some type of plastic mesh instead of the straw but otherwise work the same way. The only electricity used is that to run the fan and pull the air through. . . Rors (Rorschach) | \ / | |/ """ \? A simple pattern of Black and White? //,\ /,\\ Within you can find images, reflections, maybe balance. \ |_| / We walk a risky path: alone, yet not: whole, yet fractured. `=' "Sometimes the wolves are silent and the moon is howling" - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rorschach Subject: Re: (hdproject) Eugene Date: 08 May 1999 02:37:11 -0700 I want to apologize for not being able to write back sooner. I have only just in the last couple days gotten my email back to a satisfactory condition and start to reply. Wolfmage Wrote: Rors...to help me out, I require some info from you. I need to know info about the local area...like cost of living. One thing that everyone must understand is that you cant just spontaneously head west to HD. You have to plan WAY ahead. Jobs, place to live, money, and lots of other things that add up. 4 Bedroom houses are running about $1000/month +/- a bit depending on location. 3 Bedroom are running about $775 or so 2 Bedroom are are about $550 Apartments and duplexes/triplexs are a bit less with a 2 bed apartment about $450. This is also conditional to where you are living. Right by university add a hundred to the prices, 15 minutes out of town subtract a hundred or more. For the 3-4 months of summer you can get special rates on anything near the University which is a fair amount less than the rest of the year. I don't have a lot to compare food costs to, but I do know there are things that are less than in Georgia and there are a number of big warehouse style food stores which have very good prices. Gas is about 1.37/gallon but that is still artifically inflated from the "trouble" down in California. I am paying about the same for Auto insurance here as I was in Georgia. Shadowscout Wrote: >This all sounds pretty good. > >While Wolfmage and I won't be making it to the gather, >it does look like he will be exiting the Air Force on time. >This should put us in the area, if we can find job offers beforehand, by >mid-September at the latest. >We will probrably not be staying here in Abilene. >The job market here sucks. >What is the job market in Eugene like as of this time, Rors? I don't have a lot to compare it to, but it seems to be pretty good. There are a lot of pages of want ads every week in the paper and from what I have heard from other people in the area it is very good. I have about 8 applications out to different companies that need computer/network tech support people and have a second interview with a company on Tuesday. What kind of work are you looking for? I can start forwarding applicable want ads and let you decide how it is doing. It also depends on whether you want to be in Eugene or would be willing to settle with nearby. Salem has a lot of jobs (it is about an hour out of Eugene) and Portland is a major metropolitan area which means that jobs are extremely plentiful and pay pretty well but the costs of living are also higher. (Nothing as bad as Atlanta or the Bay Area though). Does this help? Please email me with anything more that I can send you to get a better idea of this place. . . Rors (Rorschach) | \ / | |/ """ \? A simple pattern of Black and White? //,\ /,\\ Within you can find images, reflections, maybe balance. \ |_| / We walk a risky path: alone, yet not: whole, yet fractured. `=' "Sometimes the wolves are silent and the moon is howling" - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Osborne Subject: Re: (hdproject) ticks (was Igloo for sale) Date: 07 May 1999 22:06:27 -0400 A lady I go to the Sweat Lodge lives right outside of town here in Athens, and she got that terrible fever you can get from tick bites. Icky poo. Coyote --- Why do I think U-Haul is Evil? Planning to rent a truck? Before you do, please read about my Nightmare in Moving at: http://www.coyotes.org/~consumer/index.phtml --- John "Coyote" Osborne 113 Highland Park Drive, Athens GA, 30605-3577 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Osborne Subject: Re: (hdproject) Renewable Energy resource Date: 08 May 1999 12:45:33 -0400 >Coyote Osborne wrote: >Do you remember where on the form it was? I couldn't find it... Unfortunately, I'm not sure... I used MacinTax to do my taxes, and it basically asks you a bunch of questions, walks you through the tax process and then fills out all the yucky forms for you. There was a section somewhere in there that mentioned the tax breaks... I'll try and load the software up later and dig it out. Coyote --- Why do I think U-Haul is Evil? Planning to rent a truck? Before you do, please read about my Nightmare in Moving at: http://www.coyotes.org/~consumer/index.phtml --- John "Coyote" Osborne 113 Highland Park Drive, Athens GA, 30605-3577 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Osborne Subject: Re: (hdproject) On the construction, etc. Date: 08 May 1999 13:00:13 -0400 >tools. If we get into serious construction, I should be able to bring up >a bench saw, bench router, power drill, and orbital sander at least for work >(not for the Gather, of course, but if I come up to help with other things) I was about to make a comment about power tools and purity scores, but I've decide to refrain lest I be belt-sanded. >If we go to an alternative power setup (i.e. hydropower, solar), will we still >be able to use power tools, or do we want to have the kind of maintenance and >time that hand tools bring? Ideally, your system will handle whatever load you want... but I'd recommend getting a backup generator for spot-use of power tools. The way home power systems work is this... your load is not met by your solar panels, wind, etc. All those things do is charge a battery bank, from which power can be drawn in predictable amounts as needed. This also means that with a little ingenuity, you can set up a system that gets power input from many different, possibly interchangeable sources. >looking at a communal housing setup, we might want to consider the possibility >of doing that kind of soundproofing (not necessarilly full music studio, but >enoguh that you're not holding conversations through the wall without raising >your voice) in the living areas. I agree completely. We'll want to look at several facets of soundproofing... walls, ceilings, and ventilation. When Rors was living here, he could play his CD-player VERY softly at night... so it had to hardly be enjoyable for him, and the sound would trvel through the ducts and make weird noises in t'shai's and my rooms that sounded like warbling and talking. By installing baffles in only a couple of locations in a ventialtion system, this kinda thing can be prevented. This reminds me... I'd REALLY like to make plumbing, ventilation, electrical conduit etc accessible for easy repair and maintenance. Perhaps panels that remove from a wall but are covered to match the wall when not open. I have lived in WAY too many places where the stuff was either not acessible at all (part of my mom's homes electrical system was in a poured concrete floor), or is accessible only to a spider monkey with toilet snake. Worse still are palces where you had to climb in an icky, damp, spider ridden crawlspace under a house to get at stuff, or in an attic stuffed with insulation and more spiders. I had an aunt that lived in a modern, attractive, expensive home that had wall panels you coudl remove to get at most thigns... including the central vacuum system (yuppie hell!). >Insulation, too, might be a good idea even >indoors - if someone wants their room hot in the summer, and the other >wants it >cooler, there should be enough insulation to make it possible. It will also >let us reduce heating bills in the winter by only heating those areas where >people are likely to be. Good point. People don't usually think to insulate interior sections of a dwelling, but it make sense if you are going to want to have different climate in different areas or want to only selectively heat and cool areas taht are currently in use. >While I'm rambling, here's an idea: An adaptation of the ROman/Spanish villa, >using some of the Japanese stylings as well. It allows for open, airy >architecture, with a sheltered central area that is common to the entire >building, allowing for a meditation garden sort of thing (possibly a small >pool as well?) Sounds neat. I dunno whether we're still planning on communal living facilities or not... but I like the courtyard architecture idea. I'm gonna work out some stuff now. Even if we had just a communal cooking/working/storage area, that would make a nice touch, I think. Coyote --- Why do I think U-Haul is Evil? Planning to rent a truck? Before you do, please read about my Nightmare in Moving at: http://www.coyotes.org/~consumer/index.phtml --- John "Coyote" Osborne 113 Highland Park Drive, Athens GA, 30605-3577 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Osborne Subject: Re: (hdproject) On the construction, etc. Date: 08 May 1999 13:02:57 -0400 >> but enoguh that you're not holding conversations through the wall without >> raising your voice) in the living areas. > >One of the reasons I like the idea of using brick so much. Well.. kinda... but brick makes echoes unless baffled. Concrete block construction is cheaper by far and also dampens sound (and is less attractive and needs to be covered up)... but do we want to have brick OR concrete for internal walls? Sounds expensive and difficult to change later. >What about 2 phases to building. We concentrate on simple, practical housing >at first and then do our castles and villas in the second phase. A villa as >the official community center would be nice. I agree. Coyote --- Why do I think U-Haul is Evil? Planning to rent a truck? Before you do, please read about my Nightmare in Moving at: http://www.coyotes.org/~consumer/index.phtml --- John "Coyote" Osborne 113 Highland Park Drive, Athens GA, 30605-3577 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Osborne Subject: RE: (hdproject) On the construction, etc. Date: 08 May 1999 13:23:46 -0400 >while for it to heat a space, but the heat was very consistant (which is a >problem with wood stoves, they have to be pretty constantly tinkered with >to get the heat level right). That depends on three factors A: Whether you've set up yoru heat distribution and insulation correctly B: What kind of stove you have C: Whether you know what you are doing. The style of stove makes a huge difference. If your stove is basically a block of metal with a fire in it, you have no insulation or no ventilation to convey the heat evenly away from the stove, and all you do is throw in some wood in a pile and fire it up all vents open, you'll be screwing with it a lot. >AC's are not, but convection coolers are. Simplest system is being used in >India, take a straw bale that is not tightly packed (note straw, so it I saw a report about those on TV. Supposedly worked well in very high temperatures... they had a heat wave over there last year, and those thigns were selling like hotcakes. This is essentially the same kinda process taht large convection cooling towers use. A high school near where I lived had two large towers... about ten feet square by 30 feet tall, which basically ran air past pipes of water. Cooled a huge school building with multiple floors... the whole building was three stories, and about 150 feet square. There were about 2000 students. >I know that there are commercial units that use this same process (I have >heard them called "Swamp Coolers") and they use some type of plastic mesh >instead of the straw but otherwise work the same way. The only electricity >used is that to run the fan and pull the air through. Another type of swamp cooler used in florida is basically an old air conditioner... the freon has been removed, and instead , water is just forced through the coils (which provide a large surface area), usually with a garden hose. Air is run past the coils and cooled without adding humidity to the air. It works only because a constant supply of cool water is run through to carry away the heat. A friend of mine from high school lived in a house cooled that way. Coyote --- Why do I think U-Haul is Evil? Planning to rent a truck? Before you do, please read about my Nightmare in Moving at: http://www.coyotes.org/~consumer/index.phtml --- John "Coyote" Osborne 113 Highland Park Drive, Athens GA, 30605-3577 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Digital Dragon Subject: RE: (hdproject) On the construction, etc. Date: 08 May 1999 22:48:47 -0400 (EST) On Sat, May 8, 1999, at 01:02 PM, Coyote Osborne wrote: >> Well.. kinda... but brick makes echoes unless baffled. Concrete block >> construction is cheaper by far and also dampens sound (and is less >> attractive and needs to be covered up)... but do we want to have brick OR >> concrete for internal walls? Sounds expensive and difficult to change >> later. >> I don't see how concrete would be that expensive. We can mix it ourselves, for one. It takes a while to set though. You basically just buy it by the bag. You can also add gravel to it. =Digi _ _ Digital Dragon, Clan Stormchaser o--------------------o //___// digidrag@discovernet.net | Team POV & *Amiga* | /____/ ( http://www.discovernet.net/~digidrag | A1200 50MHz 34Mb |/^ ^/( ICQ: 21109302 IRC : Digi2 o--------------------/ ---- /;/ alt.fan.dragons, Alfandria MUCK : Digi /_____//// alt.lifestyle.furry, Furry MUCK: Digi `v---v'// "Dragons hold the true spirit of life." `===='~ DC.?(D,t) f++ s+ h-- Cg|b,t:b a+ $+ m d+++ WL++*/WL+^* Fr-- L z e+++ g i-- - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Yhoneska Imtayme Subject: Re: (hdproject) Opinions, input and voting Date: 09 May 1999 13:51:03 -0400 On this, Yhoni agrees! ~Yhoni~ ICQ # 35572191 ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Yhoneska Imtayme Subject: Re: (hdproject) Request to join from Fenris Date: 09 May 1999 15:24:07 -0400 If I understand right, this is a request for Fenris to join the HDProject list. If so, I say yes though I am sure I am a bit late. I only want to stress to him that this list is the more boring/practiical matters list, and not very chatty. I would like to know more about him. I like this formal request idea, but once again I would suggest (even if onlly vollentary) some kind of feeling out the prospectives questionaire. Even if it only had one question like " What does Hearts Dream mean to you and how will you contribute to it?" IMHO A questionaire would give us all a better idea of the seriousness of the applicant. And even if someone on the main list seems silly and frivolous, they may be in reality totally serious and committed to the main project. But how else can we find this out if we don't ask them. And what ever the questions are, they should be subjective, and judged in this manner. A questionair will only let us try and know if what we are about is what THEY THINK we are about. And I would say that even if they have the wrong idea of our concept, if they still wish to join the list to learn, and are polite, still let them. I also think (IMHO) that it will give any newer prospectives an idea of our seriousness and dedication to the project of Hearts' Dream.... That's my two cents and more.... ~Yhoni~ ICQ # 35572191 ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Yhoneska Imtayme Subject: Re: (hdproject) Request to join from Fenris Date: 09 May 1999 15:30:28 -0400 On Mon, 03 May 1999 22:49:22 -0500 Dave Price writes: > >Spyder, could you please wait a little longer before subscribing someone >next time? Twenty-four hours is much too short of a time period for people >to respond adequately, as only six people managed to do so before you added >Fenris. Six out of twenty is not even a straight majority, much less a >unanimous vote. Of those six, only four people actually responded in the >affirmative - the others said they didn't know enough to judge. This is >not, in my opinion, enough support to add someone to the list. I see where he is coming from, and I agree for one reason. I think we have all agreed that no one likes the idea of booting someone off a list, we just made this seperate one rather than boot everyone off the old list. So I feel it is easier to withhold adding someone to a list rather than later booting off. In reality, I can't see us doing either, because most everyone on this list is at the least polite, openminded, and willing to give anyone a chance to prove themselves. This is good, but still maybe a few more days, even a week would be nice... (I know I am behind, but I am determined to make it up today...) Read also my comments on having a lets get to know you questionaire on another post..... ~Yhoni~ ICQ # 35572191 ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Yhoneska Imtayme Subject: Re: (hdproject) On the construction, etc. Date: 09 May 1999 16:14:55 -0400 On Fri, 7 May 1999 16:40:42 EDT WSale31114@aol.com writes: >> While I'm rambling, here's an idea: An adaptation of the ROman/Spanish >> villa, using some of the Japanese stylings as well. It allows for open, airy >> architecture, with a sheltered central area that is common to the entire >> building, allowing for a meditation garden sort of thing (possibly a small >> pool as well?) It shoudl be shaded in the summer by a deciduous tree or >> three, and in the winter is sheltered from blowing winds. I have other ideas, but >> I need to sketch them out first, and my scanner isn't up and running at the >> moment. >> >> But I babble - comments? > >What about 2 phases to building. We concentrate on simple, practical housing >at first and then do our castles and villas in the second phase. A villa as >the official community center would be nice. Something this brought to mind was something my church I attended as a child did. Originally they had the Santuary and a pair of CBS built class rooms running parellel on the site. What they did was to close off the area in between the two classrooms, and that became the 'fellowship' hall. It is very nice for 1960's construction, and very airy. The basic design could have allowed many more options as a home/living are than as a church meeting hall, including a second story area. It still has the rooms, 4 or 5 large ones on each side, and one side has outside access, but all have access to the main hall. And they added the kitchen and bathrooms on to the back side of it.... Here is an ascii rendition, but the roof, while pointed, is not quite so tall in proportion.... /\ / \ / \ / \ __ / \ ___ [ ] [ ] [___]__________[___] Just an idea of how things can start one way and end up another..... ~Yhoni~ ICQ # 35572191 ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Yhoneska Imtayme Subject: (hdproject) Crops, Livestock, & Frugality Date: 09 May 1999 12:03:15 -0400 On Mon, 26 Apr 1999 21:47:33 -0600 Spyder writes: >Me, too. I can see us raising our own fruit, food, and small game, but >hardly opening a roadside stand with 'hormone free werewolf grown >raspberries!' =1 > >Of course, Eugene has a wonderful Saturday market every weekend, so if we >_do_ have a glut of one thing we can always unload it for a few bucks, too. >=) > > Spyder ===First on Crops and Livestock....==== Sorry for the late reply to this whole thread, but I find myself thinking that these plans would be nice, but... and then I have many real concerns about the true viability of these plans we are making for growing our own food. I will list them in no particular order.... 1. How many of us are now or have ever been farmers? Or at the least grown up in a family that has a family garden every year to grow their own veggies and has grown up working it? 2. How many of us have raised food animals in any way? Has anyone ever done the slaughtering that will be nessessay? And most importantly... 3. Will everyone at Hearts Dream be willing to work whatever hours a day every day and week as needed to support this kind of group indurstry? <<>>> Frankly, I see (and fear) that we are not these kind of people and that we will find ourselves in over our heads very quickly even just implementing these ideas, but more importantly on keeping interest up to grow our own veggies and livestock 24/7/365 etc... I am a child of the suburbs who has grown up in urban hell. Only by the grace of the S.C.A. have I even a realistic idea what might be entailed in such an undertaking due to past Arts & Science Projects I have researched and made. T'shai and I also lived together with a third roommate and had a small back yard garden for a year. Frankly, it was moderately sucessful despite our regular neglect of it, and T'shai did most of the work. And it did not really replace much of our weekly veggie budget, at least not as much as we might have hoped. We worked all week at 'mindane' jobs, and always found "more important things" to do than tend our little garden. We even neglected watering it sometimes, and the hose was about 5 feet away! And weeding, well I think we did a survival of the fittest kind of outlook there... I am not sure by any means, but I think most of us on the list are more typical 'modern' types with fairly traditional work force jobs like secretary, computers, etc... We are not farmers, and do not have the understanding what such a large scale project will require from all of us. If this is the case, let us be realists and admit it. I am not saying that small scale projects and ideas can't be done, but I think we need to start small and make alternative plans to at the least begin with. (I remember that when the first sprouts came up, we had trouble telling the real plants from the weeds, and had to go look at books we checked out from the library...lack of knowledge on our part.) ====The Frugal Part===== So, as I am rarely with out an idea for a solution when I feel I have found a problem, here it is. As you say there are wondeful produce markets near you, we even have them here in urban hell. I also appreciate the plight of the modern farmer, and suggest that perhaps we can use this kind of resource to our advantage. I suggest that we concider buying from the real farmers, but not just as a normal consumer, but do something a little different. I have gotten incredable bargins at these markets (though I dont usually frequent them that often, usually for S.C.A. events feasts...) by buying the slightly damaged produce that is normally just junked and often thrown away.I have gotten an entire case of tomatos for one dollar because of spots and bruises on them. (This case was culled from many other cases, and also contained produce that had been dropped by customers by accident.) It all was chopped up and used as both fresh tomatos slices in a salad, but also used to make a tomato sause and enhance the "canned" sauses already being used. This kind of idea could at the least save us lots of money, but more important, we are preventing the waste of otherwise totally useable food from just being dumped. I am willing to bet that I could talk the farmers who come to sell to set aside the best of the waste produce for us on a regular basis, and thereby get better quality. They will be happy to see it not just wasted, and in return they will get some money, however small for thier work. This is both frugal and almost like scavaging. (And we can choose who we buy from--like those who grow the organic produce...) Even the big local supermarkets regularly toss away I would guess about two cases of mixed produce due to bruses, imperfections, accidents etc... I know there is great care involved in choosing this kind of 'imperfect' food, but this is a skill I have and know from both my S.C.A. experience and from my years working at restraunts. I believe that since most of our people have some kind of professional and/or computer skills that command a decent wage, that the time to grow on a large scale our own food, while nice, is probably not a good time use nor really in time and hours spent a good value. (I am thinking that like has been suggested before, if we have some people who work in a nearby city, perhaps after their regular jobs they would be more suited to using these same skills to seek additional income, or help set up other ways to make money than farming. (I am thinking of all the different computer applications alone that people on this list could do, be it web site design, ISP, hosting, even marketing, etc....) >>>>>>>>Yhoni goes out of realist mode<<<<<<<< So there you have my assessment, my ideas and solutions. I mean no ill will, but find myself this morning having a day of harsh realistic outlook, and this is what has been concerning me on this topic... I look forward to your ideas and responces.... Yours in the Dream, ~Yhoni~ ICQ # 35572191 ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Corwyn J. Alambar" Subject: (hdproject) Utilities, access, etc. Date: 09 May 1999 13:37:56 -0700 Coyote: Good mention about the utility access. Making arrangements like that is probably one of the least-thought-out parts of housing design. It seems like the designers tend to be sadists who REALLY like the idea of sending the unsuspecting homeowner into a spider-ridden crawlspace. Thank you, but no. One of the ideas we had for the house in New York was this: For long runs of wires between major areas (like from the basement panel to upstairs) we ran a 2" wide piece of PVC pipe with a long piece of semi-flexible wire, like a long tightly coiled spring. If you neded to run another wire up this length (say you realized you needed another electrical trunk because you decided to put a hot tub off an upstairs balcony. :) it would be a simple matter of hooking the wire to the bottom of the coil, and threading it back up. If you wanted you could connect another coil as well, so that you always had a coil running along, and didn't have to thread the coil down throug the tube again unless it was absolutely necessary. (Hmmm, am I making my point here?) Another idea we might want to consider, especially in our wiring, is the idea ofnot having one big fuse box, but maybe a lage central one that did nothing but feed the main areas of the house, tand then a more easlly accessed fuse panel in each of those zones. FOr example, a trunk line to the workshop that might have a 150 amp fuse, and then a satellite fuse panel in the workshop that covered each major outlet, or similarly a fuse panel in the kitchen. It might make for a little more expense at the beginning, but it means running a million less wires from your main repository... Especially if that main repository might be in an outside location (like apower shed). Thought of in this way, a fisebox in the power shed might distribute power out to the house, the barn, the workshop, and the greenhouse (just examples), and then each of those buildings would distribute power as was appropriate. That way it is more likely you would blow a fuse in an accessible location than somewhere that would suck to get to at 2 in the morning in the middle of January. (Awww, shit, the lights in the living room blew... And the fuse is out in the power shed. WHo's gonna toss on a robe to go change it?) Also, there's the issues of "zonal" utilities and alternative utilities... ew're all computer savvy, and I think there's probably a big call for us to do SOME kind of networking in the living areas, with a central trunk out. But what about other utility ideas? Possibly the use of some kind of closed-circuit communiatin system that used minimal power (rather like the sound-powered communications systams used on aircraft carriers and such?) ANd for what i mean by zonal utilities, consider havign a large living area with a good sound system. You want to moe the speakers... Des that mean having to run more wire under the floor, or would that mean simply going to a patch pannel tastefully hidden in a wall pannel and patching a few connections to make the new speaker jacks live? The plastic PVC conduit withthe flexible snake sort of thing is probably a good idea for things liek this as well - have limited runs that you can travel through to pull out wires - making runnig extra wires for whatever reason a much less ardurous task - you don't have to break open the wall or have difficul to maintain panels to pull out to access the wires - and all oyour wires are in a nice bundle. And the PVC piping makes it less likely that large, chewing vermin (mice and rats) could get in and gnaw on the insulation. THis kind of thing also can be used to run wires underground and make them resistant to things like vermin or shifting ground (frost heaving is a bitch on in-ground wires without some kind of sheathing), but does require a bit of an investment up front. Comments? -Corey - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fenris Subject: Re: (hdproject) Request to join from Fenris Date: 09 May 1999 23:49:13 +0200 On Mon, 03 May 1999 22:49:22 -0500 Dave Price writes: > Spyder, could you please wait a little longer before subscribing someone > next time? Twenty-four hours is much too short of a time period for > people to respond adequately, as only six people managed to do so before > you > added Fenris. Six out of twenty is not even a straight majority, much less > a > unanimous vote. Of those six, only four people actually responded in > the affirmative - the others said they didn't know enough to judge. This > is > not, in my opinion, enough support to add someone to the list. So, If I understood you think that I haven't my place here. You don't want to see me to join this project. What was my mistake ? Perhaps I was "very chatty" on the other list. But when I was talking about serious things about the project it was always "later" or "maybe". I stopped to post about it. Here, I think that we can have serious talking about HD and ONLY about HD. I know that this list is for technical questions. It's not a chatty list. I hope that this time when I'll post about construction or electricity, you'll take the time to answer to me. But, if you don't want to see me here, I'll leave. I don't want to make this project if some of you don't want to see me here. I feel humiliated by you. I hope that I have only misunderstood. Rorschach : Your information was very useful about Eugene. As soon as that I'll more time I'll post about it. Fenris ICQ-25038511 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Digital Dragon Subject: RE: (hdproject) Crops, Livestock, & Frugality Date: 09 May 1999 18:28:13 -0400 (EST) On Sun, May 9, 1999, at 12:03 AM, Yhoneska Imtayme wrote: >> <<>>> -----snip----- >> >>>>>>>>Yhoni goes out of realist mode<<<<<<<< >> >> So there you have my assessment, my ideas and solutions. I mean no >> ill will, but find myself this morning having a day of harsh realistic >> outlook, and this is what has been concerning me on this topic... I look >> forward to your ideas and responces.... I'd have to agree with you on your viewpoint. I'm a city boy despite myself. I've never even been camping, except when I _had_ to during the army, and once in primary school. While those both turned out to be bad experiences for me (specially the Army cause I ended up in hospital with dehydration), and most likely because I was with ppl I didn't care for. Though I was always the one for roaming the countryside - it just felt good. I had intended going to Feral this year... and sharing a tent. These days I'm better prepared for this sort of thing, and I'm willing to do what needs to be done. It's something I've known was coming, even if I am a little nervous abut it. As you've said, I for one am a computer type with a broad range of skills. I have no fancy degrees, I just barely made it out of high school. The thing is, I pick things up fairly quick. I tend to retain all sorts of knowledge that leaves me wondering why I know certain things. i'll shutup now.... =Digi _ _ Digital Dragon, Clan Stormchaser o--------------------o //___// digidrag@discovernet.net | Team POV & *Amiga* | /____/ ( http://www.discovernet.net/~digidrag | A1200 50MHz 34Mb |/^ ^/( ICQ: 21109302 IRC : Digi2 o--------------------/ ---- /;/ alt.fan.dragons, Alfandria MUCK : Digi /_____//// alt.lifestyle.furry, Furry MUCK: Digi `v---v'// "Dragons hold the true spirit of life." `===='~ DC.?(D,t) f++ s+ h-- Cg|b,t:b a+ $+ m d+++ WL++*/WL+^* Fr-- L z e+++ g i-- - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSale31114@aol.com Subject: Re: (hdproject) Crops, Livestock, & Frugality Date: 09 May 1999 18:30:10 EDT In a message dated 5/9/99 2:32:40 PM CST, yhoni1@juno.com writes: > <<>>> > > Frankly, I see (and fear) that we are not these kind of people and > that we will find ourselves in over our heads very quickly even just > implementing these ideas, but more importantly on keeping interest up to > grow our own veggies and livestock 24/7/365 etc... I am a child of the > suburbs who has grown up in urban hell. Only by the grace of the S.C.A. > have I even a realistic idea what might be entailed in such an > undertaking due to past Arts & Science Projects I have researched and > made. T'shai and I also lived together with a third roommate and had a > small back yard garden for a year. Frankly, it was moderately sucessful > despite our regular neglect of it, and T'shai did most of the work. And > it did not really replace much of our weekly veggie budget, at least not > as much as we might have hoped. We worked all week at 'mindane' jobs, > and always found "more important things" to do than tend our little > garden. We even neglected watering it sometimes, and the hose was about > 5 feet away! And weeding, well I think we did a survival of the fittest > kind of outlook there... I've something of a black thumb but will be happy to devote an hour or two each day to a garden. It's not hard, a radio or stereo helps pass the time as you work outside. As for the livestock - I'm not sure; can be a lot of work if you don't plan adequately. > us. If this is the case, let us be realists and admit it. I am not > saying that small scale projects and ideas can't be done, but I think we > need to start small and make alternative plans to at the least begin > with. (I remember that when the first sprouts came up, we had trouble > telling the real plants from the weeds, and had to go look at books we > checked out from the library...lack of knowledge on our part.) We'll do fine as far as a garden is concerned. Might over produce certain stuff and I know there's going to be people complaining about shelling peas all the time but we'll be okay. > >>>>>>>>Yhoni goes out of realist mode<<<<<<<< > > So there you have my assessment, my ideas and solutions. I mean no > ill will, but find myself this morning having a day of harsh realistic > outlook, and this is what has been concerning me on this topic... I look > forward to your ideas and responces.... > > Yours in the Dream, > ~Yhoni~ Nothing wrong with being a little pessimistic, we are planning something quite a bit beyond anything any of us have ever done before. The dream will be made flesh. ;) Flenser - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Digital Dragon Subject: RE: (hdproject) Utilities, access, etc. Date: 09 May 1999 18:45:26 -0400 (EST) On Sun, May 9, 1999, at 01:37 PM, Corwyn J. Alambar wrote: >> Coyote: >> >> Good mention about the utility access. Making arrangements like that is >> probably one of the least-thought-out parts of housing design. It seems >> like the designers tend to be sadists who REALLY like the idea of sending >> the unsuspecting homeowner into a spider-ridden crawlspace. Thank you, >> but no. >> I'd say having a panel in areas where junctions are as these are the parts that are likely to need repair first. The places where you have corner pipes and stuff. -----snip----- >> Another idea we might want to consider, especially in our wiring, is the >> idea ofnot having one big fuse box, but maybe a lage central one that did >> nothing but feed the main areas of the house, tand then a more easlly >> accessed fuse panel in each of those zones. -----snip----- Like the ideas. Here some o mine. For outside lines: bury them! Have a conduit underground. this way your power lines are more protected against the elements, and better insulated (and the other things already mentioned). Within the house consider having strisps in the flooring that can be removed for access to wiring. Wood panels could do nicely for this. As mentioned, we are mostly computer-types here. I've worked in Ops centers for years. All with raised floors and electrical conduits. Speaking of raised floors.... What about having the houses raised a bit? - no wait, then we'd get all sorts of critters moving in underneath... =Digi _ _ Digital Dragon, Clan Stormchaser o--------------------o //___// digidrag@discovernet.net | Team POV & *Amiga* | /____/ ( http://www.discovernet.net/~digidrag | A1200 50MHz 34Mb |/^ ^/( ICQ: 21109302 IRC : Digi2 o--------------------/ ---- /;/ alt.fan.dragons, Alfandria MUCK : Digi /_____//// alt.lifestyle.furry, Furry MUCK: Digi `v---v'// "Dragons hold the true spirit of life." `===='~ DC.?(D,t) f++ s+ h-- Cg|b,t:b a+ $+ m d+++ WL++*/WL+^* Fr-- L z e+++ g i-- - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSale31114@aol.com Subject: Re: (hdproject) Utilities, access, etc. Date: 09 May 1999 19:02:55 EDT In a message dated 5/9/99 4:45:36 PM CST, digidrag@discovernet.net writes: > Speaking of raised floors.... What about having the houses raised a bit? - > no wait, then we'd get all sorts of critters moving in underneath... It's not that bad having critters underneath. Just depends on what sort of critters your talking about. ;) Stephen's big dogs made sure there was nothing else staying under the house with them. We'll work something out when we start building. I like the idea of using PVC pipe for routing power and communications lines - underneath or overhead, depending on the situation. Flenser - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Osborne Subject: RE: (hdproject) On the construction, etc. Date: 09 May 1999 13:48:39 -0400 Digi Wrote: >I don't see how concrete would be that expensive. We can mix it ourselves, >for one. It takes a while to set though. You basically just buy it by the >bag. You can also add gravel to it. Yes... But each bag does not make that much concrete. Concrete is harder to work with and, I think considerably more expensive, for interior walls than, say, drywall/stud construction. Take a look at the size of an 80-pound bag of concrete. The amount of finished concrete you get is not gonna be that much bigger than the bag. I know that all you have to do is mix it up... but you still have to buy the mix. Also... you cannot just pour a concrete wall without special equipment... and special concrete. We'd have to make our own blocks, and that means buying molds and preparing the concrete densely. Ready-made concrete blocks would probably be cheaper and easier than all that. You can also fill concrete blocks (they generally have 2-3 large hollow spaces) with whatever you like, including rocks, poured concrete and rebar. If we don't mind the additional expense, or it turns out to be less expensive than I thought, AND we also don't mind having something that is nigh-impossible to change later, there's all sorts of neat stuff we can do with concrete. Concrete, on it's own, is ugly though. And it doesn;t insulate... it is thermal mass though, I suppose. Personally, I'd like to see how expensive the various types of construction are, and compare that with things we want, like insulative value and soundproofing. Coyote --- Why do I think U-Haul is Evil? Planning to rent a truck? Before you do, please read about my Nightmare in Moving at: http://www.coyotes.org/~consumer/index.phtml --- John "Coyote" Osborne 113 Highland Park Drive, Athens GA, 30605-3577 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Osborne Subject: Re: (hdproject) Request to join from Fenris Date: 09 May 1999 21:45:30 -0400 Fenris Wrote: >So, If I understood you think that I haven't my place here. You don't want to >see me to join this project. What was my mistake ? I think that the issue was not whether you belonged, but that there was nto enough time between when you requested to be on and when you got put on for any objections to be raised. I suspect the objection had more to do with the process than you personally. Of the several people here... only a couple had a chance to answer. It's not that anyone would necessarily have said no. It's that no-one had a chance to say yes or no at all. Coyote --- Why do I think U-Haul is Evil? Planning to rent a truck? Before you do, please read about my Nightmare in Moving at: http://www.coyotes.org/~consumer/index.phtml --- John "Coyote" Osborne 113 Highland Park Drive, Athens GA, 30605-3577 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wontolla Subject: Re: (hdproject) Taxes (Was: Renewable Energy resource) Date: 09 May 1999 23:23:01 -0400 Coyote Osborne wrote: > >Do you remember where on the form it was? I couldn't find it... > > Unfortunately, I'm not sure... I used MacinTax to do my taxes, and it > basically asks you a bunch of questions, walks you through the tax process > and then fills out all the yucky forms for you. Ha! I used Kiplinger Tax Cut, which is why I can't find it either! > There was a section somewhere in there that mentioned the tax breaks... > I'll try and load the software up later and dig it out. > Thanks! Wontolla wontolla@netonecom.net - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wontolla Subject: (hdproject) Howl T-Shirts Date: 09 May 1999 23:27:51 -0400 Well, I haven't heard any more about T-shirts for the OR Howl, so I am making my own primitive one (computer transfer paper on a Hanes T). Design is very simple, just my cougar artwork centered on a plain white T-shirt with the words: "Heartsdream Howl Cougar Hot Springs OR June 1999". If anyone wants one, cost will be about $7.00 for materials. I'm sorry for the short notice, but I just decided to make one for myself tonight. I need to know by early Wednesday morning who wants one and what size. I am really cramped for time right now, and Wednesday is the only day I will be going in to town for supplies this week (I will be gone starting next Mon). I don't really think it will be a problem with this group, but having been burned before on this kind of thing, I will ask that you only order one if you really intend to pay for it. I'd like nothing better than to be able to give these away but sadly I can't afford to get stuck with a bunch of them. BTW, Rors, yours is free as Howl host if you want one, what size would you like? -- Wontolla wontolla@netonecom.net - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wontolla Subject: Re: (hdproject) Crops, Livestock, & Frugality Date: 10 May 1999 00:45:02 -0400 Yhoneska Imtayme wrote: > 1. How many of us are now or have ever been farmers? Or at the least > grown up in a family that has a family garden every year to grow their > own veggies and has grown up working it? > Well, I'm a bit rusty after 9 years living in the barracks, but I did grow up with a garden, up to a 1/4 acre in size, everything from Asparagus to Zucchini. My mother and especially my grandmother were avid gardeners, and I spent a lot of time growing up in the garden. I have also helped out with fruit picking on a family fruit farm (cherries, pears, peaches, and apples). > 2. How many of us have raised food animals in any way? Has anyone ever > done the slaughtering that will be nessessay? > Well, I have done slaughtering (chickens), but I am avegitarian now and will not be doing it in the future. I'll make an exception for neccesary emergency mercy killings of wounded animals (but prefer to take them to a vet for a lethal injection). > And most importantly... > > 3. Will everyone at Hearts Dream be willing to work whatever hours a day > every day and week as needed to support this kind of group indurstry? > IMHO, this IS the most critical question. Lack of information/experience can be fairly easily remedied, lack of motivation and drive is a MUCH harder fix. I WANT my homegrown veggies and I will work to get them (drools at the thought of tomatoes fresh out of the garden). > ====The Frugal Part===== > > These are very good suggestions, but I would want to find someone who doesn't coat their produce in icky chemical glah. Getting pesticide free produce is one of my cheif motiviations for enduring the hot sun, dirt embedded in my fingernails, crick in my back and biting flies. > > > >>>>>>>>Yhoni goes out of realist mode<<<<<<<< > > So there you have my assessment, my ideas and solutions. I mean no > ill will, but find myself this morning having a day of harsh realistic > outlook, and this is what has been concerning me on this topic... I look > forward to your ideas and responces.... Good points, and suggestions...... -- Wontolla wontolla@netonecom.net - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dave Price Subject: Re: (hdproject) Request to join from Fenris Date: 10 May 1999 01:30:04 -0500 At 11:49 PM 5/9/99 +0200, you wrote: >But, if you don't want to see me here, I'll leave. I don't want to make this >project if some of you don't want to see me here. > >I feel humiliated by you. I hope that I have only misunderstood. My problem was not with you, Fenris, but with the fact that Spyder added you when only four people on this list out of twenty had agreed to it. When we started this list I was under the impression that it would take a 50% majority with no nay votes in order to add someone to the list, or something along those lines. If you will read the post you quoted more carefully, you should note that I said I didn't have a problem with adding you as long as you were made aware of the guidelines. The message was not intended to insult, humiliate, upset, denigrate, put down, or tweak anyone; it was just intended to raise a point of order with regards to this list. I'm sorry that I keep offending people left and right. It seems like I can't open my mouth these days without upsetting someone, intentionally or not. I apologize, and will endeavor to correct the problem. later, =Timber= - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dave Price Subject: (hdproject) Death and... Date: 10 May 1999 01:32:21 -0500 Here are some bits I dug out of TurboTax that apply to renewable energy sources... FORM 6478 (Alcohol Fuel Credit) The Credit to Taxpayers who used Alcohol as Fuel is available to taxpayers who incurred expenses from fuels made from: - straight alcohol of at least 150 proof - alcohol of at least 150 proof mixed with gasoline, jet fuel, diesl, etc. - either methanol or ethanol, but NOT alcohol produced from coal or natural gas. FORM 8835 (Renewable Energy Production Credit) The Renewable Energy Production Credit is a credit available to owners of qualified electricity-producing facilities placed in service after 1992 which use closed-loop biomass as a qualified energy source. [Ed. note: this sounds like it's for large facilities, so it's probably out for homeowners who are feeding back to the grid] FORM 8834 (Qualified Electric Vehicle Credit) TurboTax didn't describe this one, so I downloaded the form. It states, in short, that if your electric vehicle has four wheels (boooo... :p) and runs on the road, you get to deduct 10% of the vehicle's cost, up to $4000, from your taxes that year. That's all I could find, but I didn't look very hard. I'm sure there are also some state-based credits for electric vehicles, and possibly a few for renewable home-based energy. Probably not too many of the latter, though. later, =Timber= ..."We also know how cruel the truth often is, and we wonder whether delusion is not more consoling." - Henri Poincare - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Shadowscout" Subject: Re: (hdproject) Crops, Livestock, & Frugality Date: 10 May 1999 05:57:06 -0500 >On Mon, 26 Apr 1999 21:47:33 -0600 Spyder writes: >>Me, too. I can see us raising our own fruit, food, and small game, but >>hardly opening a roadside stand with 'hormone free werewolf grown >>raspberries!' =1 >> >>Of course, Eugene has a wonderful Saturday market every weekend, so if >we >>_do_ have a glut of one thing we can always unload it for a few bucks, >too. >>=) >> >> Spyder > >===First on Crops and Livestock....==== > >Sorry for the late reply to this whole thread, but I find myself thinking >that these plans would be nice, but... and then I have many real concerns >about the true viability of these plans we are making for growing our own >food. I will list them in no particular order.... > >1. How many of us are now or have ever been farmers? Or at the least >grown up in a family that has a family garden every year to grow their >own veggies and has grown up working it? *raises a paw* My family has had a vegetable garden for as many years as I can remember. I've spent many a summer out there helping with the planting, weeding, and harvesting. While I have been away for a while, and have not been in the position to have a garden, Wolfmage and I have one started in the backyard. :) >3. Will everyone at Hearts Dream be willing to work whatever hours a day >every day and week as needed to support this kind of group indurstry? Yes. Fresh vegetables have a taste that is not comparable to what one can buy at Wal-Mart. I do, however, like your suggestions for getting produce, but how would one go about ensuring that they are not covered with pesticides? Shadowscout shadowscout@earthlink.net ICQ 5260803 If you had any idea what was going on in the minds of the seemingly normal people all around you, you'd run for your life. - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Osborne Subject: Re: (hdproject) Request to join from Fenris Date: 10 May 1999 14:24:11 -0400 Timber wrote: >I'm sorry that I keep offending people left and right. It seems like I >can't open my mouth these days without upsetting someone, intentionally or >not. I apologize, and will endeavor to correct the problem. And never fear... i will hurry to fill the void left by Timber's correction by being positively irritating to everyone! Hoping to defuse hurt feelings with Humor, Coyote --- Why do I think U-Haul is Evil? Planning to rent a truck? Before you do, please read about my Nightmare in Moving at: http://www.coyotes.org/~consumer/index.phtml --- John "Coyote" Osborne 113 Highland Park Drive, Athens GA, 30605-3577 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Corwyn J. Alambar" Subject: (hdproject) More on livestock, produce, etc. Date: 10 May 1999 11:46:21 -0700 (PDT) Some interesting issues come up from the recent discussion: (a) Vegetarians, particularly of the 'ethical' (moral) kind: There are some of us for whom meat is not only a part of the diet, but has a certain spiritual significance... WIll there be issues with others who eat meat among us, and raising animals for that purpose? (This is aimed primarilly at those who are vegetarians out of more ethical concerns - i.e. animal cruelty issues) (b) Labor involvement There are ways to do low-fuss gardening. I was involved in gardening a lot when I was growing up, and it really isnt' that difficult to make gardens that are much lower maintenance than the standard community garden plot or your average 50 acre field. (1) Raised garden beds. Not only are they raised above the ground, but they are also sunk into the ground about a foot. If you line the bottom with osmosis cloth (it's not that expensive, and it allows water to only flow one direction) you can regulate how much water remains in the bed. It also discourages burrowing vermin, especially if you use mesh (see below) By removing rhizome intrusion, it makes weeding a LOT easier. (2) Overhead meshing. We grew berries, and all manner of vegetables, with the use of a fine chickenwire mesh over the top of the garden. With an access on one side (a pull-open door, also made of mesh) it made a convenient trellis for vegetables and fruits that require that, like tomatoes, melons, etc. It also kept birds, rabbirts, and deer out of the garden areas (for the most part) (3) Mixed crops. A low, ground hugging and shade-loving crop (like many culinary and medicinal herbs) can be grown in conjunction with a taller sort of plant (like corn) to reduce the maintenance tons. The corn chokes out the sun-loving plants, while the low-growing crop chokes out competitors in that regard. (4) Bushes, vines, and trees. Many viney plants can grow back year after year (blackberries, grapes, melons), and become an investment in future productivity. trellising these along long wire runs allows for ease of access to the fruiting bodies when it does happen, and makes things easy to collect. Bushy perrenials (like blueberries) can be grown almsot like a hedge, for ornamental as well as food-gathering purposes. And trees will take care of themselves after the first few years - when the time comes, you simply go out and harvest the fruit from the tree. (5) Permaculture. This I'v enever worked with, but I've seen it in action (one of our raised garden beds kept producing fruit and vegetables for 6 years after we stopped taking care of it - it looked like a jungle, but it obviously didn't exhaust the soil, and produced tomatoes, melons, and corn(!!) for the entire time with no maintenance at all. With a planned permaculture you can get even better yields (6) Sawdust, cardboard, and other groundcovers. These take some time to put out, and need to be renewed every 3-5 years, but they can provide a nice ground cover for acid-loving crops (asparagus and blueberries from what I remember), and keep the weeks down a lot. Basically, you lay the cardboard down, cover it in sawdust, water it down, and then plant your crop. It will kep the weeds down, which minimizes the work needed to maintain the vegetables. It requires a bit of an investment of time at the beginning, but it minimizes the work necessary to be done at a later date - front-load it when you're enthusiastic, and then simpyl remember to harvest, and do the maintenance when you feel up to it. It's not QUITE that easy, but you can do a lot of the work (i.e. make the frames and mesh covers and even lay out wire trellising frames) during the winter months, when more structural work should be done. Also, doing this work up front during the months when it's difficult to do structural work on buildings and such due to weather means that the sunny days of summer can be used for major outdoor projects, such as raising a barn or framing a supplemental dwelling, rather than spent weeding the garden. (c) Raising animals is often best done when they can feed themselves - i.e. plenty of grazing areas with a place for them to come inside at night. That way you can collect the most useful stuff that animals produce: manure. This is probably the most noxious task that can be done on a farm, but the garden will love you for it. Alternatively, if there is a farmer in the area and we could get a team willing to go offer to clean the barn out (maybe for a bit of milk and all the manure that can be hauled) we might be able to get by without. But those are some of the observations... -Corey - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fenris Subject: Re: (hdproject) Crops, Livestock, & Frugality Date: 10 May 1999 23:23:59 +0200 Yhoneska Imtayme a writes : > 1. How many of us are now or have ever been farmers? Or at the least > grown up in a family that has a family garden every year to grow their > own veggies and has grown up working it? > > 2. How many of us have raised food animals in any way? Has anyone ever > done the slaughtering that will be nessessay? > > And most importantly... > > 3. Will everyone at Hearts Dream be willing to work whatever hours a day > every day and week as needed to support this kind of group indurstry? > I have a garden and my parents enjoy gardening. I know a few things on the subject. The advantage to be at Eugene, it's that a lot of plants can grow easily. But I don't think that we can do this on a large scale. If we want to earn money by selling our products, we need to find a special plant. I give you 3 examples. We could make olive oil. This oil help to decrease the cholesterol level. We could make wine. We could sell the tannin. The tannin decrease of 50 % the risk to have an heart attack. We could make saffron. This spice is made from a flower. It's a very expensive spice. We must find a product that people would like to buy ( for their health of for the cooking). We can grow patatoes or tomatoes, but just for ourselves. It won't pay to sell these products. If I spoke about olive oil or wine, it's because I have still the time to learn how to make it. About animals... My mother could learn to me how to do the slaughtering. It's not very nice to see. But, if it can help us to bring money at HD, I' ll make an effort. Fenris ICQ-25038511 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fenris Subject: Re: (hdproject) Request to join from Fenris Date: 10 May 1999 23:24:24 +0200 Dave Price writes : > My problem was not with you, Fenris, but with the fact that Spyder added > you when only four people on this list out of twenty had agreed to it. > When we started this list I was under the impression that it would take a > 50% majority with no nay votes in order to add someone to the list, or > something along those lines. If you will read the post you quoted more > carefully, you should note that I said I didn't have a problem with adding > you as long as you were made aware of the guidelines. The message was not > intended to insult, humiliate, upset, denigrate, put down, or tweak anyone; > it was just intended to raise a point of order with regards to this list. > > I'm sorry that I keep offending people left and right. It seems like I > can't open my mouth these days without upsetting someone, intentionally or > not. I apologize, and will endeavor to correct the problem. > No problem. I understand. I'm also sorry to have overreacted. Actually, I'm under stress. But It's not your fault. For me this story is over. See you soon Fenris ICQ-25038511 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KatmanDu Subject: Re: (hdproject) Howl T-Shirts Date: 10 May 1999 18:52:04 -0400 At 11:27 PM 5/9/99 -0400, you wrote: >one for myself tonight. I need to know by early Wednesday >morning who wants one and what size. I'll take one... large. katmandu1@home.com - members.home.net/katmandu1 - katmandu@arches.uga.edu "If the real Jesus Christ was to stand up today, He'd be gunned down cold by the CIA. Oh, the lights that burn brightest behind stained glass will cast the darkest shadows upon the human heart. But GOD didn't build *himself* that throne. GOD doesn't live in Israel or Rome. GOD doesn't belong to the yankee dollar. GOD doesn't plant the bombs for Hezbollah. GOD doesn't even go to church. And GOD won't send us down to Allah to burn. No, GOD will remind us what we already know- that the human race is about to reap what it's sown. The World is on its elbows and knees; it's forgotten the message and worships the creed." -The The, "Armageddon Days are Here Again" - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Yhoneska Imtayme Subject: Re: (hdproject) Crops, Livestock, & Frugality Date: 10 May 1999 19:30:06 -0400 On Mon, 10 May 1999 05:57:06 -0500 "Shadowscout" writes: >> >>1. How many of us are now or have ever been farmers? Or at the least >>grown up in a family that has a family garden every year to grow their >>own veggies and has grown up working it? > >*raises a paw* >My family has had a vegetable garden for as many years as I can remember. >I've spent many a summer out there helping with the planting, weeding, and harvesting. >While I have been away for a while, and have not been in the position to have a garden, >Wolfmage and I have one started in the backyard. I am pleased to hear that you, in addition to Wontolla have been raised with gardens. This give me some hope, but my pessimistic side (out due to waking up with 9 to 10 on the Richter scale painful muscle spasms...) says that if you two are the only ones with experience, you will be the primary ones tending a HD garden.... >>3. Will everyone at Hearts Dream be willing to work whatever hours a day >>every day and week as needed to support this kind of group indurstry? > >Yes. Fresh vegetables have a taste that is not comparable to what one an >buy at Wal-Mart. I do, however, like your suggestions for getting produce, but how >would one go about ensuring that they are not covered with pesticides? Fresh grown is always best, this I cannot argue. But it also depends upon the area, but consider this... Down here in South Florida, urban hell as I often call it, at our farmers markets you can find the organicly grown types of fruits and veggies easier than you can find the standard pesticide covered kind. Not all sellers organicly grow theirs, but a clear majority even down here. It seems to me, though I have not asked yet, that the main reason they do these Farmers markets is that they can get a decent price over some contract distributer to wholesaler to store type arrangement, where all the middle men have to add in thier profits. They get more of the money for themselves, and they can continue to follow the organicly grown methods, and we get produce cheaper than we could have at any store. Everybody wins... I am betting we can personally pick and choose our growers, and strike bargins and deals with them in exchange for our loyal business, and the buying even at great discount, of what they would normally toss away in the trash. This can and will give us quite a bit of control over what we eat, and if we do get and use the 'damaged' produce, we are even preventing unnessessary waste. I believe one can still be a 'consumer' but still be both smart and eco-friendly if they just think about it.... See, I suspect (IMHO) that HD will end up becomming like a business where everyone has their specializations according to their experiences, with a rotation of the jobs that no one wants. I figure that due to my large family background, SCA Feast experience, my almost compulsive desire for bargins, especially in food, and my true love of cooking, that I will end up cooking for the group. I am prepared to do so for any number of folks, every day (though one night off a week would be nice) forever... I love cooking that much. (I do not like doing dishes though I am a consciensious cook, and I suspect this will be a rotation job or one for the unskilled or however it works out.) I hope also to at the least help with the budgeting and have no problem buying the food we eat. I will however seek the very best deals to insure quality, but at a price we can afford... Another of my many skills regarding food/kitchen work.. Well there's some more indepth thoughts on this all... ~Yhoni~ ICQ # 35572191 ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rorschach Subject: Re: (hdproject) Howl T-Shirts Date: 11 May 1999 00:06:15 -0700 At 11:27 PM 5/9/99 -0400, you wrote: >Well, I haven't heard any more about T-shirts for >the OR Howl, so I am making my own primitive one >(computer transfer paper on a Hanes T). Design is >very simple, just my cougar artwork centered on a >plain white T-shirt with the words: Jess said that she has a number of different colored T-shirts (it's happy living near big Goodwill stores : ) and she is working up a design. If things go right she should have some shirts as well. >"Heartsdream Howl >Cougar Hot Springs OR >June 1999". > >If anyone wants one, cost will be about $7.00 for materials. >I'm sorry for the short notice, but I just decided to make >one for myself tonight. I need to know by early Wednesday >morning who wants one and what size. I am really cramped for >time right now, and Wednesday is the only day I will >be going in to town for supplies this week (I will be >gone starting next Mon). You might bring some of the transfers with you if you do not get too many calls for T-shirts. >I don't really think it will be a problem with this group, >but having been burned before on this kind of thing, I will >ask that you only order one if you really intend to pay for >it. I'd like nothing better than to be able to give these >away but sadly I can't afford to get stuck with a bunch >of them. > >BTW, Rors, yours is free as Howl host if you want one, >what size would you like? I wear a large. Thank you very much. . . Rors (Rorschach) | \ / | |/ """ \? A simple pattern of Black and White? //,\ /,\\ Within you can find images, reflections, maybe balance. \ |_| / We walk a risky path: alone, yet not: whole, yet fractured. `=' "Sometimes the wolves are silent and the moon is howling" - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fenris Subject: Re: (hdproject) Utilities, access, etc. Date: 11 May 1999 22:10:25 +0200 "Corwyn J. Alambar" writes : > One of the ideas we had for the house in New York was this: For long runs > of wires between major areas (like from the basement panel to upstairs) we > ran a 2" wide piece of PVC pipe with a long piece of semi-flexible wire, > like a long tightly coiled spring. If you neded to run another wire up > this length (say you realized you needed another electrical trunk because > you decided to put a hot tub off an upstairs balcony. :) it would be a > simple matter of hooking the wire to the bottom of the coil, and threading > it back up. If you wanted you could connect another coil as well, so that > you always had a coil running along, and didn't have to thread the coil > down throug the tube again unless it was absolutely necessary. (Hmmm, am I > making my point here?) > > Another idea we might want to consider, especially in our wiring, is the > idea ofnot having one big fuse box, but maybe a lage central one that did > nothing but feed the main areas of the house, tand then a more easlly > accessed fuse panel in each of those zones. FOr example, a trunk line to > the workshop that might have a 150 amp fuse, and then a satellite fuse > panel in the workshop that covered each major outlet, or similarly a fuse > panel in the kitchen. It might make for a little more expense at the > beginning, but it means running a million less wires from your main > repository... Especially if that main repository might be in an outside > location (like apower shed). Thought of in this way, a fisebox in the > power shed might distribute power out to the house, the barn, the workshop, > and the greenhouse (just examples), and then each of those buildings would > distribute power as was appropriate. I think it could be a good solution. > Also, there's the issues of "zonal" utilities and alternative utilities... > ew're all computer savvy, and I think there's probably a big call for us to > do SOME kind of networking in the living areas, with a central trunk out. > But what about other utility ideas? Possibly the use of some kind of > closed-circuit communiatin system that used minimal power (rather like the > sound-powered communications systams used on aircraft carriers and such?) > ANd for what i mean by zonal utilities, consider havign a large living area > with a good sound system. You want to moe the speakers... Des that mean > having to run more wire under the floor, or would that mean simply going to > a patch pannel tastefully hidden in a wall pannel and patching a few > connections to make the new speaker jacks live? It's important to make the wiring diagram before. We need to determine what do we need : phone, computers, TV and speakers outlets. If I can have the plans of the house, I'll do the wiring diagram. But not before this summer. Actually I haven't enough time to do this. > The plastic PVC conduit withthe flexible snake sort of thing is probably a > good idea for things liek this as well - have limited runs that you can > travel through to pull out wires - making runnig extra wires for whatever > reason a much less ardurous task - you don't have to break open the wall or > have difficul to maintain panels to pull out to access the wires - and all > oyour wires are in a nice bundle. And the PVC piping makes it less likely > that large, chewing vermin (mice and rats) could get in and gnaw on the > insulation. For such cases, you can put "armored" cables inside the PVC piping to let no chance to chewing vermin. I you have a book on electricity, I'll help you to find the equivalence between the norms of my country and yours to choose the good wires. It's not easy to choose them because there are so many different type (even for me !) Instead of pipes, you can also use PVC baseboard. > This kind of thing also can be used to run wires underground and make them > resistant to things like vermin or shifting ground (frost heaving is a > bitch on in-ground wires without some kind of sheathing), but does require > a bit of an investment up front. > > Comments? Yes. It's difficult to be silent when you're an electrician. ;-) What must be doing for a safe installation : (When I give the minimal section of the wires, it's only the bare wire.) Instead using fuses, we should buy "divisiommaire" circuit breaker (sorry, I haven't found a better translation). they look like as a small switch. It protects against short-circuit and overload. The big advantage is that you don't need to buy another fuse when there is a problem. You have just to switch on the circuit breaker. Unfortunately, it's 3 times more expensive than a fuse. I think that could be interesting. Outlets : No more 5 outlets by fuse or C-B. Fuse : 20 A C-B : 25 A minimal section of the wires : 0.1 in Lights : One fuse or C-B per room. Fuse : 10 A C-B : 16 A minimal section of the wires : 0.06 in washing machine : One fuse or C-B alone Fuse : 20 A C-B : 25 A minimal section of the wires : 0.1 in dish-washer : One fuse or C-B alone Fuse : 20 A C-B : 25 A minimal section of the wires : 0.1 in Oven : One fuse or C-B alone Fuse : 20 A C-B : 25 A minimal section of the wires : 0.1 in electrical hot plate Fuse : 32 A C-B : 38 A minimal section of the wires : 0.24 in For other application, ask me. Of course, It's very important to respect the colors. Red : live wire Blue : Neutral wire Green/Wellow : earth wire Other colors are used for lights (between a switch and a bulb) Each earth wire must be connected individually to earth terminal ( junction boxes are prohibited for all the earth wires ) Important : an electrical pipe mustn't be near a water pipe because of the condensation. There is another problem : the earth wiring. The earth link used in US protect electrical devices but not people. I give you an example. The washing machine has a problem. The phase live wire accidentally is touching the earth wire. Two cases : It's a full contact : the fuse blows It's a part contact : the current is not enough to blow the fuse. The current is very lazy. I'll take the shorter way. What can happen ? At the same time, you're taking a shower. The washing machine is linked to the water pipes. The current travel thanks to the water. If the current can go more easily to the earth by the shower, It'll do it. You're electrocuted. To avoid this, we can buy a differential switch. It measure the difference of current between the live wire and the neutral wire. Normally, these two currents are balanced. As soon as there is a difference , it switch off the current. By this way, you can take a bath and use a hair drier (this is a very bad idea). If you drop it, you won't die. To do this, we need also to buy a insulation transformer. Because the earth wiring must be different if we want to install Differential Switches. I think I could be a good idea that only 2 people take care of all the electricity problems to avoid any accident. Electricity is very dangerous. It'll be difficult to find All these electrical devices in US. But if you're are interested, I'll send them (if I can't find before a solution to go to Eugene) If you need any more information about electricity, you can ask me. Fenris ICQ-25038511 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Osborne Subject: Re: (hdproject) Crops, Livestock, & Frugality Date: 10 May 1999 20:58:59 -0400 Gardening experience? I've never had to care for them long term... but all the work does not need to be done all the time. Many of the organic gardening methods I've seen are intended to additionally be low-maintenance. The Pelilos, a VERY old italian couple I knew in my youth had a little garden that provided them (and everyone else in the neighborhood) loads of fresh produce. I never saw either of them in the garden for more than half an hour. As for livestock... you have to feed them every morning, and sometimes every evening. That takes a whopping five minutes of time. A couple times a year, you'll have other maintenance, like vet visits and such. Stalls and living quarters need to be kept clean, but if you make them right, it's not that huge a deal. Most things need abotu as much maintenance as a pet. Milk animals (cows and goats) need to be milked daily, of course. I've had relatioves and friends who had farms, and lived on one when I was very young. It's honestly not that huge a deal, unless you have a huge commercial endeavor. the big work is usually in clumps... not all the time. And your setup determines a lot about how little you'll have to do later. Weeding is nto as huge a deal as it's made out to be... if you try to grow all one kind of plan in neat little rows, with nothign in b3etween, the weeds will ahev a field day... that's ideal conditions... it's even a an ecological vacuum that needs filling. If you have many plants... many growin gtogether, it's harder for weeds to take hold, and the small numbers that do can even be beneficial. It's been shown that if bugs have more to eat than just yoru plants... thye will eat fewer of your plants. Many plants even produce phytotoxins that drive away harmful plants or bugs... but can co-exist with 'desirable' plants. Marigolds for example. If you don;t kil the soil, all you'll need is compost and rotation (with perhaps soem alfalfa or clover for in-between years to replensih soil. So you won;t be shoveling artificial fertilizer and measuing soil Ph all the time. If you keep a diversity of plant... you won;t be able to use mechanical harvesters... but I cannot see us doing that anyway. Most of the work peoepl put into gardens is the result of fighting with nature to get a differen tresult than what nature 'wants'. But that is neither the only, nor necessarily the best way to do things. Coyote --- Why do I think U-Haul is Evil? Planning to rent a truck? Before you do, please read about my Nightmare in Moving at: http://www.coyotes.org/~consumer/index.phtml --- John "Coyote" Osborne 113 Highland Park Drive, Athens GA, 30605-3577 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Digital Dragon Subject: (hdproject) Lighting the way (again) Date: 12 May 1999 07:32:51 -0400 (EST) Had to get a new bulb for the landing outside my apt., so I bought a 'compact fluorescent' one. Costs more, but it's very bright (more than a regular 60W) and only uses 15W. Aaaand according to the label it should last around 10 000 hours. The average bulb only lasts maybe 1000 hours of your lucky. The downside is that it may cause interference with cordless phones and radios. Also its has to be kept safe from the weather. I'm thinking that this may be good for indoor work areas, general lighting of commonly used areas... =Digi _ _ Digital Dragon, Clan Stormchaser o--------------------o //___// digidrag@discovernet.net | Team POV & *Amiga* | /____/ ( http://www.discovernet.net/~digidrag | A1200 50MHz 34Mb |/^ ^/( ICQ: 21109302 IRC : Digi2 o--------------------/ ---- /;/ alt.fan.dragons, Alfandria MUCK : Digi /_____//// alt.lifestyle.furry, Furry MUCK: Digi `v---v'// "Dragons hold the true spirit of life." `===='~ DC.?(D,t) f++ s+ h-- Cg|b,t:b a+ $+ m d+++ WL++*/WL+^* Fr-- L z e+++ g i-- - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Yhoneska Imtayme Subject: Re: (hdproject) Lighting the way (again) Date: 12 May 1999 18:13:26 -0400 On Wed, 12 May 1999 07:32:51 -0400 (EST) Digital Dragon writes: >Had to get a new bulb for the landing outside my apt., so I bought a >'compact fluorescent' one. Costs more, but it's very bright (more than a >regular 60W) and only uses 15W. Aaaand according to the label it should >last around 10 000 hours. > >The average bulb only lasts maybe 1000 hours of your lucky. Just a strange little FYI from Yhoni: At my local 'everythings-a-dollar' stores, they have a brand of light bulbs that I cannot find anywhere else. They are packed only 3 to a package, but the are very long lasting, 2500 hours on aveage. And they really work. While still living with my mom, I had to replace her hall light outside her bedroom every month or so due to her leaving it on all night every night. Since I moved out 9 months ago, she tells me it still has not needed replacing. And we DID use GE brand "long life" bulbs, (at great expence) but they would last maybe one month longer. Come to think on it, her bedside swing arm lamp also ran through light bulbs at about the same speed for the same reason, I just didn't have to climb to change that one. I don't know why they last so long, but they do, and rare is the sale that you can ever find normal 4 packs of bulbs for a dollar. I am very pleased with them and use them exclusively. And they come in 40, 60, 75, and 100 watt sizes and all last over twice as long as standard GE bulbs....and I have never had a dud yet!!! Just a FYI about shopping and trying out things.... I personally think that the regular bulbs are designed to be very disposable so the corporatio makes lots of profit from the high turnover off of them. Sorta like the panty hose scam where they all run in one wearing on average, yet they could make them run proof, there is just no profit for the corporation in that.... ~Yhoni~ ICQ # 35572191 ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Corwyn J. Alambar" Subject: (hdproject) THe Howl? Date: 12 May 1999 16:12:56 -0700 (PDT) Just an odd question.. When exactly IS the howl? SOmeone mentioned it once, but I seem to have forgotten. Part of me seems to want to think it was this weekend? -Corey - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Osborne Subject: Re: (hdproject) Lighting the way (again) Date: 12 May 1999 19:27:25 -0400 >Had to get a new bulb for the landing outside my apt., so I bought a >'compact fluorescent' one. Costs more, but it's very bright (more than a >regular 60W) and only uses 15W. Aaaand according to the label it should >last around 10 000 hours. There are also halogen bulbs that last a long time and use less electricity. From a frugal standpoint, we should consider how much it costs per 1000 hours. For instance... if a long-life bulb lasts ten times as long, but costs 15 times as much, it's not a good deal monetarily. OTOH, if it results in less stuff in a landfill, we might still like the idea. I also like the idea of using only as much light as you need. For areas where you don;t need to read or see thigns in bright light (hallways, etc.) we coudl use dimmer lights that use less power. Coyote --- Why do I think U-Haul is Evil? Planning to rent a truck? Before you do, please read about my Nightmare in Moving at: http://www.coyotes.org/~consumer/index.phtml --- John "Coyote" Osborne 113 Highland Park Drive, Athens GA, 30605-3577 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Yhoneska Imtayme Subject: Re: (hdproject) Lighting the way (again) Date: 12 May 1999 18:13:26 -0400 On Wed, 12 May 1999 07:32:51 -0400 (EST) Digital Dragon writes: >Had to get a new bulb for the landing outside my apt., so I bought a >'compact fluorescent' one. Costs more, but it's very bright (more than a >regular 60W) and only uses 15W. Aaaand according to the label it should >last around 10 000 hours. > >The average bulb only lasts maybe 1000 hours of your lucky. Just a strange little FYI from Yhoni: At my local 'everythings-a-dollar' stores, they have a brand of light bulbs that I cannot find anywhere else. They are packed only 3 to a package, but the are very long lasting, 2500 hours on aveage. And they really work. While still living with my mom, I had to replace her hall light outside her bedroom every month or so due to her leaving it on all night every night. Since I moved out 9 months ago, she tells me it still has not needed replacing. And we DID use GE brand "long life" bulbs, (at great expence) but they would last maybe one month longer. Come to think on it, her bedside swing arm lamp also ran through light bulbs at about the same speed for the same reason, I just didn't have to climb to change that one. I don't know why they last so long, but they do, and rare is the sale that you can ever find normal 4 packs of bulbs for a dollar. I am very pleased with them and use them exclusively. And they come in 40, 60, 75, and 100 watt sizes and all last over twice as long as standard GE bulbs....and I have never had a dud yet!!! Just a FYI about shopping and trying out things.... I personally think that the regular bulbs are designed to be very disposable so the corporatio makes lots of profit from the high turnover off of them. Sorta like the panty hose scam where they all run in one wearing on average, yet they could make them run proof, there is just no profit for the corporation in that.... ~Yhoni~ ICQ # 35572191 ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Spyder Subject: Re: (hdproject) Lighting the way (again) Date: 12 May 1999 23:59:06 -0600 Yhoni, what's the brand name? I'm gonna look for some of those... =1 As for light bulbs... I learned years ago in high school from a great old science teacher that when the first flourescent bulbs were invented in the 50's, they essentially would never run out. The gases don't deplete or anything, and all you really do when turning them on is turn the electricity into light energy instead, by way of the catalyzing gases inside the tubes. Of course, after a few months of testing they realized that no one would buy more than one of the things, so they added other gases that do eventually burn out and take the rest of the bulb with them, necessitating the need to buy them regularly. I'm sure that the 'new' long-life bulbs everyone is making now is basically the same thing -- put in less of the destabilizing gases so they burn a little bit longer, for ten times the cost. =1 If the business people gave one small damn about conservation and less about the Almighty $, they could make them last a helluva lot longer... Spyder "We're living at the end of a world and the beginning of a NEW one." - Fenris, April 1999 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Spyder Subject: Re: (hdproject) THe Howl? Date: 13 May 1999 00:00:00 -0600 At 4:12 PM -0700 5/12/1999, Corwyn J. Alambar wrote: => Just an odd question.. => => When exactly IS the howl? SOmeone mentioned it once, but I seem to have => forgotten. Part of me seems to want to think it was this weekend? June 19th to the 27th. It's marked on my calendar, even though I won't be able to afford to go... =[ Spyder "We're living at the end of a world and the beginning of a NEW one." - Fenris, April 1999 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Digital Dragon Subject: RE: (hdproject) Lighting the way (again) Date: 13 May 1999 07:32:12 -0400 (EST) On Wed, May 12, 1999, at 11:59 PM, Spyder wrote: >> As for light bulbs... I learned years ago in high school from a great old >> science teacher that when the first flourescent bulbs were invented in the >> 50's, they essentially would never run out. The gases don't deplete or >> anything, and all you really do when turning them on is turn the >> electricity into light energy instead, by way of the catalyzing gases >> inside the tubes. Yeah, I learned that too. The price I paid at Shoprite was about $12. The regular packs usually run about $2 - $3 and use more energy. This is Stamford, CT I'm talking about though.... =Digi _ _ Digital Dragon, Clan Stormchaser o--------------------o //___// digidrag@discovernet.net | Team POV & *Amiga* | /____/ ( http://www.discovernet.net/~digidrag | A1200 50MHz 34Mb |/^ ^/( ICQ: 21109302 IRC : Digi2 o--------------------/ ---- /;/ alt.fan.dragons, Alfandria MUCK : Digi /_____//// alt.lifestyle.furry, Furry MUCK: Digi `v---v'// "Dragons hold the true spirit of life." `===='~ DC.?(D,t) f++ s+ h-- Cg|b,t:b a+ $+ m d+++ WL++*/WL+^* Fr-- L z e+++ g i-- - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Subject: Re: (hdproject) Utilities, access, etc. Date: 13 May 1999 13:27:44 -0400 Just to let ya know Fenris... you can get differential switches and circuit breakers in the US. Most homes and buildings use circuit breakers now, and many use differential or safety circuits in bathrooms (and even kitchens). So it won;t be a problem to get those. Something I'm wondering... do dimmer switches really save power? I heard that some of them decrease the amount of light, but do it by creating more resistance... in other words, just wasting the same amount of power regardless of how much is being allowed to get to your lights. One of the thigns that surprises me is taht there are apprently no universal federal laws over here in the US about lightning protection. In Florida, you have to have lightning rods attached to your house, but apparently in some states you don;t. I suspect we'll want one. ; ) Despite the fact the I have once successfully acted as a lightning rod myself, I'd prefer not to try for twice. Coyote - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Subject: Re: (hdproject) Lighting the way (again) Date: 13 May 1999 13:35:31 -0400 >Yhoni, what's the brand name? I'm gonna look for some of those... =1 > >As for light bulbs... I learned years ago in high school from a great old >science teacher that when the first flourescent bulbs were invented in the >50's, they essentially would never run out. When I was in Junior High School, one of Thomas Edison's original _incandescent_ light bulbs was still burning in a fire station in Florida. If I recall correctly, it had been lit for about 90 years. I don't know if it's still going or not. But a light bulb that is only sold once doesn;t make as much money, I suppose. Grrr.... Coyote - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSale31114@aol.com Subject: Re: (hdproject) Utilities, access, etc. Date: 13 May 1999 16:07:41 EDT In a message dated 5/13/99 11:43:58 AM CST, coyote@coyotes.org writes: > Something I'm wondering... do dimmer switches really save power? I heard > that some of them decrease the amount of light, but do it by creating more > resistance... in other words, just wasting the same amount of power > regardless of how much is being allowed to get to your lights. Same technology as switching power supplies, not nearly as sophisticated. I suppose you could use a variable transformer for the lights too. Only problem with using dimmers is that some lights tend to buzz and make noise at certain settings. Oh, dimmers are only usable with regular bulbs. > One of the thigns that surprises me is taht there are apprently no > universal federal laws over here in the US about lightning protection. In > Florida, you have to have lightning rods attached to your house, but > apparently in some states you don;t. I suspect we'll want one. ; ) Yep, there'll be a good set of rods. And we'll be sure to wrestle you to the ground and carry you inside if the sky should get dark while your flying a kite. :) No crispy critters allowed at Heart's Dream, unless their part of a meal. Flenser - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KatmanDu Subject: Re: (hdproject) Utilities, access, etc. Date: 13 May 1999 19:56:17 -0400 At 10:10 PM 5/11/99 +0200, you wrote: >By this >way, you can take a bath and use a hair drier (this is a very bad idea). If >you >drop it, you won't die. These are Ground Fault Circuit Interruptors... GFCI devices. Mandated by code in much of the us for outlets that are close to water sources (ie, bathroom and kitchen outlets). Home automation is turning into a big business, and a number of companies are offering all-in-one solutions... coax, cat5 cable, audio cables, etc. in one package; along with the multi-function outlets to connect the cables to. katmandu1@home.com - members.home.net/katmandu1 - katmandu@arches.uga.edu "If the real Jesus Christ was to stand up today, He'd be gunned down cold by the CIA. Oh, the lights that burn brightest behind stained glass will cast the darkest shadows upon the human heart. But GOD didn't build *himself* that throne. GOD doesn't live in Israel or Rome. GOD doesn't belong to the yankee dollar. GOD doesn't plant the bombs for Hezbollah. GOD doesn't even go to church. And GOD won't send us down to Allah to burn. No, GOD will remind us what we already know- that the human race is about to reap what it's sown. The World is on its elbows and knees; it's forgotten the message and worships the creed." -The The, "Armageddon Days are Here Again" - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Yhoneska Imtayme Subject: Re: (hdproject) Lighting the way (again) Date: 14 May 1999 07:54:24 -0400 On Wed, 12 May 1999 23:59:06 -0600 Spyder writes: >Yhoni, what's the brand name? I'm gonna look for some of those... =1 **Yhoni roots around her hall closet and pulls out all the bulbs** OK, I have got two "brands" but I suspect they might be manufactured by the same people as the boxes are so similar. The first one is called "Econo-Lite", (Soft White might be part of the brand name) and I have 40 watts, 75 watts and 100 watts all last for 2049 hours, and the lumens are respectively 400, 870, and 1270 avg lumens. The quote on the side says: "These fine quality bulbs are made with multil filament supports for greater durability and power-surge resistance. They utilize heavy duty 120 volt filament to provide extra long life..." The packages of both kinds are yellow with assorted color writings on them, and both are made in china... The second brand is called "Infinity", and I have 60 watts and 75 watts and these ones both last for 2466 hours, and the respective lumens is 615 and 971. Their quote says "Infinity light bulbs are made with 5 filament supports for added durability and impact-resistance." It also mentions theya re manufactured too operate at 130 volts to withstand power surges, and insure dependability and give added life to the bulb. Again yellow, 3 packs only this brand uses only black writing. There you go. Good luck finding them everyone... ~Yhoni~ ICQ # 35572191 ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: grigsby@netgate.net Subject: (hdproject) Facts about light bulb life Date: 15 May 1999 20:55:10 -0700 I hate to burst an anger bubble, but here's the deal with incandescent light bulbs (i.e. the regular cheap kind): You can get super-long-life bulbs if you want. Home Depot sells 10-packs of 10,000 hour bulbs aimed at industrial use or places that are inconvenient to reach. However, they are substantially less efficient at turning electricity into light. You can verify this yourself by dividing the wattage by the "Average Lumens" number on the package. I recall about a 30% drop in efficiency, but to be sure I'll have to write the figures down next time I shop there. I also recall that the the lower wattage bulbs (25-40 watts) tend to be more efficient. // grigs - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: grigsby@netgate.net Subject: (hdproject) More forms of lighting Date: 15 May 1999 21:13:37 -0700 The most efficient form of light is the LED fixture. They last effectively forever (100,000+ hours = 11+ years) and are nearly 100% efficient. Sadly they are expensive. (Jade Mountain wants $84 for one 20W bulb equivalent.) They are less expensive when run directly off of DC. For several years I have made my own compact flashlights out of one super-bright red LED and two AAA batteries. It lasts for days at full power. Recently I have seen commercial versions in a nice metal housing. I would like to try amber or red LED lighting for night use in a house: occasional LEDs would provide just enough light to see where one is going and won't destroy night vision like white light does. Then if you need to read or cook you can turn on the big overhead lights. http://www.jade-mtn.com/light.html will tell you most of what you want to know about efficient lighting sources. The discussion on fluorescent ballasts is enlightening (no pun intended). // grigs - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Digital Dragon Subject: RE: (hdproject) More forms of lighting Date: 16 May 1999 00:21:46 -0400 (EST) On Sat, May 15, 1999, at 09:13 PM, grigsby@netgate.net wrote: > >> They are less expensive when run directly off of DC. For several years I >> have made my own compact flashlights out of one super-bright red LED and >> two AAA batteries. It lasts for days at full power. Recently I have seen >> commercial versions in a nice metal housing. >> >> I would like to try amber or red LED lighting for night use in a house: >> occasional LEDs would provide just enough light to see where one is going >> and won't destroy night vision like white light does. Then if you need to >> read or cook you can turn on the big overhead lights. Sounds good. I don't need much light to see by anyway. Hell, b4 replacing the light outside the door I was quite happy in the dark. (only put the light in cause the others in the building need it). But just how bright can an LED be made? And is it worth looking into? =Digi _ _ Digital Dragon, Clan Stormchaser o--------------------o //___// digidrag@discovernet.net | Team POV & *Amiga* | /____/ ( http://www.discovernet.net/~digidrag | A1200 50MHz 34Mb |/^ ^/( ICQ: 21109302 IRC : Digi2 o--------------------/ ---- /;/ alt.fan.dragons, Alfandria MUCK : Digi /_____//// alt.lifestyle.furry, Furry MUCK: Digi `v---v'// "Dragons hold the true spirit of life." `===='~ DC.?(D,t) f++ s+ h-- Cg|b,t:b a+ $+ m d+++ WL++*/WL+^* Fr-- L z e+++ g i-- - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: grigsby@netgate.net Subject: (hdproject) Some actual numbers Date: 15 May 1999 21:51:16 -0700 In response to Yhoni's informative post, I pulled my spare bulbs out of the closet and ran some numbers. >The first one is called "Econo-Lite", (Soft White might be part of the >brand name) and I have 40 watts, 75 watts and 100 watts all last for 2049 >hours, and the lumens are respectively 400, 870, and 1270 avg lumens. The standard Philips "Soft White" 100W bulbs in my closet are only rated for 750 hours but are also rated for 1690 lumens. >The second brand is called "Infinity", and I have 60 watts and 75 watts >and these ones both last for 2466 hours, and the respective lumens is 615 >and 971. My 60W bulbs are rated for 840 lumens at 1250 hours. Breaking this down, we get: Econo-Lite 100W: 12.7 lumens/watt Philips 100W: 16.9 lumens/watt, 33% more efficient, lasts 36% as long The less efficient bulb will use about 33% more power (or we will need 33% more of them) to produce the same light. Over a 2050-hour life this is 67,650 watt-hours, or 67.6 kWH (0.33 * 100 watts * 2050 hours). Electricity around here costs about $0.10 per kWH, so the Econo-Lite will cost $6.76 more in electricity to run over its lifetime. The standard 100W bulbs I use were 2/$1.00; I need 2.75 of them to last as long as the Econo-Lite, which will cost me $1.25. So the long-life bulbs would cost me $5.50 more! Some might object that I am throwing away light bulbs, which is wasteful -- but generating the extra electricity is also wasteful, just harder to see. Infinity 60W: 10.25 lumens/watt Philips 60W: 14 lumens/watt, 36.5% more efficient, lasts 50% as long The numbers look even worse here; I'll spare the gory details. My point is that efficiency tends to dwarf replacement cost over time. For instance, a Philips 22W compact fluorescent produces 1550 lumens, lasts for 10,000 hours, and costs $28 from Jade or less from Home Depot. Philips 22W fluorescent: 70.45 lumens/watt, 416% more efficient than Philips 100W incandescent. Numbers left as an exercise for the reader. // grigs - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dave Price Subject: Re: (hdproject) More forms of lighting Date: 16 May 1999 02:39:41 -0500 At 09:13 PM 5/15/99 -0700, Grigs wrote: [stuff about bulb efficiency and superbright LEDs] >I would like to try amber or red LED lighting for night use in a house: >occasional LEDs would provide just enough light to see where one is going >and won't destroy night vision like white light does. Then if you need to >read or cook you can turn on the big overhead lights. I really like this idea. I was thinking of "smart house" type solutions for light management, but this is more elegant and more in keeping with KISS principles. Another advantage of LEDs, particularly in a hot climate, is that you keep heat emissions way down. In a borderline climate, where it's just cool enough to avoid using air conditioning but still pretty toasty, this could be a noticable difference. Perhaps this might be a good reason to run a dual power system through the house, one DC and one AC. The DC grid could be exclusively from renewable sources, while the AC grid could be a combination of spillover from the renewable system plus power from the public utility grid when needed. It seems like a neat idea, but I'm not sure how much complexity or cost it would add. If Trot doesn't post something here about it, I'll ask him about feasibility next time I see him. Along those lines, Trot and I are currently experimenting with DC power supplies for desktop computers in the hopes that coyotes.org might be able to operate as an almost "green" server. It probably won't happen anytime soon, but it keeps us out of trouble. It's also an interesting exercise to see how much expense and effort is involved in this type of conversion. luck, =Timber= - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Digital Dragon Subject: (hdproject) Hairy biz... Date: 16 May 1999 14:52:53 -0400 (EST) Don't know if this has been thought of yet, but is there anyone willing to take care of the haircut dept.? I know this sounds totally bizarre, but you do realise how much a haircut can cost these days. And unless we all intend having long hair for the rest of our lives (which I don't mind at all), we really should think about this. We do intend to be a part of the modern world after all, and the mundanes don't always apreciate 'hippie-types' and it could make it difficult to find decent work. I mean, sure, anyone can cut hair... just take some scissors and off it comes! Unfortunatly appearance does make a difference when going for an interview. (trust me to think of something as inane and petty as this...) =Digi _ _ Digital Dragon, Clan Stormchaser //___// digidrag@discovernet.net ICQ: 21109302 Alfandria: Digi /____/ ( http://www.discovernet.net/~digidrag /^ ^/( "Dragons have the true spirit of life." - Digi / ---- /;/ "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit, the 2n /_____//// is to look things in the face and know them for what `v---v'// are." - Marcus Aurelius `===='~ DC.?(D,t) f++ s+ h-- Cg|b,t:b a+ $+ m d+++ WL++*/WL+^* Fr-- L z e+++ g i-- - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Shadowscout" Subject: Re: (hdproject) Hairy biz... Date: 16 May 1999 16:30:41 -0500 >Don't know if this has been thought of yet, but is there anyone willing to >take care of the haircut dept.? I know this sounds totally bizarre, but >you do realise how much a haircut can cost these days. And unless we all >intend having long hair for the rest of our lives (which I don't mind at >all), we really should think about this. >We do intend to be a part of the modern world after all, and the mundanes >don't always apreciate 'hippie-types' and it could make it difficult to >find decent work. > >I mean, sure, anyone can cut hair... just take some scissors and off it >comes! Unfortunatly appearance does make a difference when going for an >interview. > >(trust me to think of something as inane and petty as this...) While i'm not licensed, I should be able to cut hair decently after a bit of practice. (and the purchase of a decent set of clippers) Just don't ask for anything complicated. ;> Shadowscout --- shadowscout@earthlink.net ICQ 5260803 If you had any idea what was going on in the minds of the seemingly normal people all around you, you'd run for your life. - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Osborne Subject: Re: (hdproject) More forms of lighting Date: 16 May 1999 19:44:37 -0400 >I would like to try amber or red LED lighting for night use in a house: >occasional LEDs would provide just enough light to see where one is going >and won't destroy night vision like white light does. Then if you need to >read or cook you can turn on the big overhead lights. I dunno how much others will like the idea of the red lights... but I like them. I've seen em mostly used for camping, since, as you mentioned, they don;t wreck yer night vision. I wonder how they are for peopel with nightblindness/poor night vision. I for one see really well in the dark, so I dunno how effective they are, but I know there are several of us who don't. Some small LED lights as runway lights for hallways and stuff or nightlights might be neat. There are even some being sold in the stores around here for that purpose. Would be even cheaper to run (by far) than xmas lights. You can mix different colored LED lights and use a reflector to get more natural looking light. An article I read a while back indicated that if you buy the LED's seperately from an electronic supply house (Radio Shack is probably not a good choice... expensive), you can get away for a lot less money. If you have tons of junk around, you might get some little tiny LED lights, but I'll bet indicator lights aren't as efficient. ; ) As I recall, you need to use some other kinda electricalmological doohicky in the circuit that I don;t know what it is (transistor? resistor? another kinda diode?)... not just an LED and a battery... is that true? How did you make your flashlights? Coyote --- Why do I think U-Haul is Evil? Planning to rent a truck? Before you do, please read about my Nightmare in Moving at: http://www.coyotes.org/~consumer/index.phtml --- John "Coyote" Osborne 113 Highland Park Drive, Athens GA, 30605-3577 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Osborne Subject: RE: (hdproject) More forms of lighting Date: 16 May 1999 19:45:43 -0400 Digi wrote: >But just how bright can an LED be made? And is it worth looking into? I dunno about individual ones... but I think the ones used for lighting and flashlights are usually bunched up together in groups. Coyote --- Why do I think U-Haul is Evil? Planning to rent a truck? Before you do, please read about my Nightmare in Moving at: http://www.coyotes.org/~consumer/index.phtml --- John "Coyote" Osborne 113 Highland Park Drive, Athens GA, 30605-3577 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Osborne Subject: Re: (hdproject) More forms of lighting Date: 16 May 1999 19:54:40 -0400 Timberwolf Wrote: >Perhaps this might be a good reason to run a dual power system through the >house, one DC and one AC. I've seen that recommended in a couple places. An inverter for DC to AC causes you to lose 10% or _more_ of your energy. But DC becomes less efficient the longer the wires are, and it isn;t as easy to provide power to many things that use different voltages with DC. Also, of course, there are many more AC appliances out there. Many of the recommendations I've seen have been for using DC for lighting and small appliances, and AC for the rest. What about things that draw a lot? Like washers, dryers, freezers? Are we gonna try to forgo using electrical versions of these things altogether or find some way to power them efficiently? Can you use DC for that stuff? What about monitors? Seems like the non AC alternatives are always VERY expensive. LED computer screens are REALLY pricey. Same for propane-powered freezers. Coyote --- Why do I think U-Haul is Evil? Planning to rent a truck? Before you do, please read about my Nightmare in Moving at: http://www.coyotes.org/~consumer/index.phtml --- John "Coyote" Osborne 113 Highland Park Drive, Athens GA, 30605-3577 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Osborne Subject: Re: (hdproject) Hairy biz... Date: 16 May 1999 20:00:52 -0400 >Don't know if this has been thought of yet, but is there anyone willing to >take care of the haircut dept.? I know this sounds totally bizarre, but >you do realise how much a haircut can cost these days Well... I haven't cut my hair in years. I think the last tiem I cut my hair was in 1994 or 5. And then, t'shai's mom did it for free. >We do intend to be a part of the modern world after all, and the mundanes >don't always apreciate 'hippie-types' and it could make it difficult to >find decent work. Many places seem to find it acceptable if men keep their long hair back in a ponytail (and of course neatly groomed). There was a place that Howls, Rors and I stopped in Texas though.... there were a zillion people in this food store, and I swear we were the ONLY people with long hair! But your original point stands... some jobs won't let guys have long hair. I've been pressured and aggravated by employers in the past about my hair. And women's hair is expensive to get professionally styled too. The frugal zealot mentioned hair-cutting in her Tightwad gazettes. >I mean, sure, anyone can cut hair... just take some scissors and off it >comes! Unfortunatly appearance does make a difference when going for an >interview. We could shave our heads bald! Prospective Employer: No... sorry... we're not hiring any weird bald werewolf hippies. Coyote --- Why do I think U-Haul is Evil? Planning to rent a truck? Before you do, please read about my Nightmare in Moving at: http://www.coyotes.org/~consumer/index.phtml --- John "Coyote" Osborne 113 Highland Park Drive, Athens GA, 30605-3577 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSale31114@aol.com Subject: Re: (hdproject) Hairy biz... Date: 16 May 1999 21:25:10 EDT In a message dated 5/16/99 12:53:14 PM CST, digidrag@discovernet.net writes: > We do intend to be a part of the modern world after all, and the mundanes > don't always apreciate 'hippie-types' and it could make it difficult to > find decent work. > > I mean, sure, anyone can cut hair... just take some scissors and off it > comes! Unfortunatly appearance does make a difference when going for an > interview. > > (trust me to think of something as inane and petty as this...) Not a petty subject at all. Granted, I don't think me, Grigs or Coyote are going to be interested in getting haircuts except when celebrating a Leap Year. :) Rather like the way my hair poofs up as it gets long - after I'm out of this worthless job I think I'm going to see if I can use a couple falls of hair and some foam and shape my hair into a proper mane for special occassions. ;) Flenser - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Digital Dragon Subject: RE: (hdproject) More forms of lighting Date: 16 May 1999 21:41:28 -0400 (EST) On Sun, May 16, 1999, at 07:44 PM, Coyote Osborne wrote: >> Some small LED lights as runway lights for hallways and stuff or >> nightlights might be neat. There are even some being sold in the stores >> around here for that purpose. Would be even cheaper to run (by far) than >> xmas lights. >> >> You can mix different colored LED lights and use a reflector to get more >> natural looking light. An article I read a while back indicated that if >> you hmmmm... basically mixing the primary colors to get more natural light... hadn't really thought of that before. and I learned all that stuff in Art class. Yes, sounds like it could be pulled off with a little creatice placemnet. >> As I recall, you need to use some other kinda electricalmological doohicky >> in the circuit that I don;t know what it is (transistor? resistor? another >> kinda diode?)... not just an LED and a battery... is that true? How did >> you make your flashlights? Years and years ago a friend of mine made a simple radio using copper wire, a speaker and some batteries (those were needed for amplifying the sound). Basically a home-made variable resistor. I'm betting the same principle can be applied here. =Digi _ _ Digital Dragon, Clan Stormchaser //___// digidrag@discovernet.net ICQ: 21109302 Alfandria: Digi /____/ ( http://www.discovernet.net/~digidrag /^ ^/( "Dragons have the true spirit of life." - Digi / ---- /;/ "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit, the 2n /_____//// is to look things in the face and know them for what `v---v'// are." - Marcus Aurelius `===='~ DC.?(D,t) f++ s+ h-- Cg|b,t:b a+ $+ m d+++ WL++*/WL+^* Fr-- L z e+++ g i-- - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: grigsby@netgate.net Subject: Re: (hdproject) More forms of lighting Date: 16 May 1999 21:12:13 -0700 >You can mix different colored LED lights and use a reflector to get more >natural looking light. You can even buy white LEDs now, but they're generally more expensive and not as bright as the red/amber ones. >An article I read a while back indicated that if you >buy the LED's seperately from an electronic supply house (Radio Shack is >probably not a good choice... expensive), you can get away for a lot less >money. In the flashlight I use a LED rated at about 5000 mcd. In the dark this casts a noticeable beam on a wall 20 feet away. It's not nearly as bright as a normal flashlight, but is OK for anything short of doing work (finding stuff in backpacks, lighting a stove, looking for dropped keys). You can get 3500 mcd orange LEDs for 39 cents from Jameco. One of these every few feet down a hallway and you're fine at night. The current draw is about zero. >As I recall, you need to use some other kinda electricalmological doohicky >in the circuit that I don;t know what it is (transistor? resistor? another >kinda diode?)... not just an LED and a battery... is that true? How did you >make your flashlights? To run LEDs off DC all you need is a resistor to make sure they draw only as much current as they need to emit light, usually about 20 mA (voltage drop across a LED is fixed). With the tiny flashlights I made the batteries had enough internal resistance that I didn't even need that, though they didn't run as long as they could have if I put in the resistor. >Seems like the non AC alternatives are always VERY expensive. LED computer >screens are REALLY pricey. Same for propane-powered freezers. My cursory research points in the direction of using DC for lighting. DC fluorescents flicker less than AC, and LEDs require more electronics to run off of AC. Lights are a constant low-power drain, which is inefficient to run off an inverter. And they are less sensitive to voltage fluctuations. Big inverters are expensive, but the savings and convenience of being able to run 120VAC refrigerators, freezers, computers, and appliances is considerable. I'd take it on a case-by-case basis. // grigs - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rorschach Subject: Re: (hdproject) More forms of lighting Date: 16 May 1999 22:30:36 -0700 At 07:44 PM 5/16/99 -0400, you wrote: >>I would like to try amber or red LED lighting for night use in a house: >>occasional LEDs would provide just enough light to see where one is going >>and won't destroy night vision like white light does. Then if you need to >>read or cook you can turn on the big overhead lights. > >I dunno how much others will like the idea of the red lights... but I like >them. I've seen em mostly used for camping, since, as you mentioned, they >don;t wreck yer night vision. I wonder how they are for peopel with >nightblindness/poor night vision. I for one see really well in the dark, so >I dunno how effective they are, but I know there are several of us who >don't. I wouldn't mind red night lights. >Some small LED lights as runway lights for hallways and stuff or >nightlights might be neat. There are even some being sold in the stores >around here for that purpose. Would be even cheaper to run (by far) than >xmas lights. > >You can mix different colored LED lights and use a reflector to get more >natural looking light. An article I read a while back indicated that if you >buy the LED's seperately from an electronic supply house (Radio Shack is >probably not a good choice... expensive), you can get away for a lot less >money. If you have tons of junk around, you might get some little tiny LED >lights, but I'll bet indicator lights aren't as efficient. ; ) Same LED's as any other. All they are is a special form of a transistor junction, efficiency shouldn't vary too much between them. >As I recall, you need to use some other kinda electricalmological doohicky >in the circuit that I don;t know what it is (transistor? resistor? another >kinda diode?)... not just an LED and a battery... is that true? How did you >make your flashlights? I have a very simple little flashlight (got it from a computer booth) that is two hearing aid batteries and an LED in a little plastic case. (It touches the leads of the LED to the batteries to activate, couldn't get any simpler. LED's usually need something like 3 to 4.5 volts DC to run. . . Rors (Rorschach) | \ / | |/ """ \? A simple pattern of Black and White? //,\ /,\\ Within you can find images, reflections, maybe balance. \ |_| / We walk a risky path: alone, yet not: whole, yet fractured. `=' "Sometimes the wolves are silent and the moon is howling" - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rorschach Subject: Re: (hdproject) More forms of lighting Date: 16 May 1999 22:57:43 -0700 At 07:54 PM 5/16/99 -0400, you wrote: >Timberwolf Wrote: >>Perhaps this might be a good reason to run a dual power system through the >>house, one DC and one AC. > >I've seen that recommended in a couple places. An inverter for DC to AC >causes you to lose 10% or _more_ of your energy. But DC becomes less >efficient the longer the wires are, and it isn;t as easy to provide power >to many things that use different voltages with DC. Also, of course, there >are many more AC appliances out there. Many of the recommendations I've >seen have been for using DC for lighting and small appliances, and AC for >the rest. DC shouldn't lose too much over the length that in buildings or even possibly multiple building wiring will run. The first few city grids were DC and they were likely a hell of a lot bigger than we will ever get. Running different voltages of DC is probably not possible, but we should be able to convert down from 12V to lower voltages for specialty applications. (I think it can be done efficiently either with a transistor or with zener diodes). A lot of things can be very easily converted to DC wiring (anything that takes 8 batteries is as easy as running a wire into the battery compartment). I like the idea of making some of the static loads (like lights) DC and having AC available for those things that require it. >What about things that draw a lot? Like washers, dryers, freezers? Are we >gonna try to forgo using electrical versions of these things altogether or >find some way to power them efficiently? Can you use DC for that stuff? >What about monitors? If we are going to try to generate a significant chunk of our own power we won't want to use any big resisitive heating devices (Electric stoves, ovens, dryers, space heaters, water heaters). If really neccesary we could rig DC motors for refrigerators, freezers, or washers but this would be quite a bit of trouble and may be less efficient than their AC counterparts. If we are generating all of out own power putting in DC motors would probably be more efficient than getting a large inverter but if we are running a mixed system (generating some of our own power) then it would probably be a better solution to run them off of AC line power and have a big enough inverter to keep anything critical running if the line power goes out. I am pretty sure that any monitor that we can find will need AC power to run unfortunately. >Seems like the non AC alternatives are always VERY expensive. LED computer >screens are REALLY pricey. Same for propane-powered freezers. Small propane powered freezers are going to be pretty expensive because they are a specialty item and so the price is jacked through the roof. We may be able to get around this either be finding and refurbishing an older unit or by looking around carefully and finding a small commercial cooling unit and building the freezer box (walk in) ourselves. (I have read that a number of commercial freezers of the largish type use the fire to ice (ammonia) form of refrigeration. We may be able to find a new unit for a decent price or we may be able to scavenge refrigeration units from some place like a resteraunt that has gone out of business. Worse case is that we may want to try and build a refrigeration unit ourselves, but this could be festive (stainless is fun to try and join together). The principles are pretty simple but the application could take a few tries to get right. Hopefully we can cut some of our dependence on refrigerators with a good root celler and maybe a spring house but freezers are a very wonderful thing that have around. . . Rors (Rorschach) | \ / | |/ """ \? A simple pattern of Black and White? //,\ /,\\ Within you can find images, reflections, maybe balance. \ |_| / We walk a risky path: alone, yet not: whole, yet fractured. `=' "Sometimes the wolves are silent and the moon is howling" - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Corwyn J. Alambar" Subject: Re: (hdproject) Hairy biz... Date: 17 May 1999 01:43:11 -0700 (PDT) > Don't know if this has been thought of yet, but is there anyone willing to > take care of the haircut dept.? I know this sounds totally bizarre, but > you do realise how much a haircut can cost these days. And unless we all > intend having long hair for the rest of our lives (which I don't mind at > all), we really should think about this. > We do intend to be a part of the modern world after all, and the mundanes > don't always apreciate 'hippie-types' and it could make it difficult to > find decent work. If I may step in here... Bullshit. I've had long hair since 1985, and I've had NO problem finding work. Not the beginning office work I did, not the data entry not the clerical... None of it. I'm now a systems administrator running Unix workstation and networks at the enterprise level -if some prospective employer demands that I cut my hair, afte the profanity flies, I will remind him or her that asking such a thing is actually illegal (I cant' remember the statute, but it is under the same rule as women cannot be required to wear dresses), and then if they insist, I'll up my demand by $35K per year. Employers will get away with anything that they aren't called on - so it is a simple matter to know your rights nd know what they can and can't get away with. -Corey, who doesn't exactly have "wild" hair, either. - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Digital Dragon Subject: RE: (hdproject) Hairy biz... Date: 17 May 1999 07:29:30 -0400 (EST) On Mon, May 17, 1999, at 01:43 AM, Corwyn J. Alambar wrote: >> If I may step in here... >> >> Bu*beep*it. >> >-----snip----- >> afte the profanity flies, I will remind him or her that asking such a >> thing is actually illegal (I cant' remember the statute, but it is under the >> same rule as women cannot be required to wear dresses), and then if they >> insist, I'll up my demand by $35K per year. >> And you'll probably _not_ get the job for pointing things like that out during an interview. Before you argue that that would be illegal, let me say that they will find a reason why they did not hire you. Sure once you are with an employer for some time, you can go ahead and let it grow. Hey, before coming to the States I had a pony-tail. What I _was_ saying is that it _may_ be difficult to find work (of the sort that pays well). Rmember that you are dealing with old-school thought when you are out there. things are changing. The fact that I can wear a t-shirt and jeans on Fridays is proof of that. The rest of the week I wear polo shirts and casual pants. I work in a corporate enviroment... =Digi _ _ Digital Dragon, Clan Stormchaser //___// digidrag@discovernet.net ICQ: 21109302 Alfandria: Digi /____/ ( http://www.discovernet.net/~digidrag /^ ^/( "Dragons have the true spirit of life." - Digi / ---- /;/ "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit, the 2n /_____//// is to look things in the face and know them for what `v---v'// are." - Marcus Aurelius `===='~ DC.?(D,t) f++ s+ h-- Cg|b,t:b a+ $+ m d+++ WL++*/WL+^* Fr-- L z e+++ g i-- - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Yhoneska Imtayme Subject: Re: (hdproject) Hairy biz... Date: 17 May 1999 07:42:54 -0400 On Sun, 16 May 1999 14:52:53 -0400 (EST) Digital Dragon writes: >Don't know if this has been thought of yet, but is there anyone >willing to take care of the haircut dept.? <<>> >(trust me to think of something as inane and petty as this...) > >=Digi Yhoni raises she hand and waves.... I am passable good, and currently occasionally help my roommate with his "buzz" type hair cuts using clippers and shavers.... While on this subject, what about shaving and shavers? The disposable ones are so wasteful!!! ~Yhoni~ ICQ # 35572191 ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Corwyn J. Alambar" Subject: Re: (hdproject) Hairy biz... Date: 17 May 1999 10:33:34 -0700 (PDT) > > And you'll probably _not_ get the job for pointing things like that out > during an interview. Before you argue that that would be illegal, let me > say that they will find a reason why they did not hire you. This is true. However, that is also an indication that I did not want the job in the first place, because restrictive policies concerning the length of hair that men wear are indicative of deeper morale/control issues on behalf of the management as a whole. If they are more concerned with appearances than simply getting the job done... well, wil lthey be worth working for? Note: THis doens't fuly apply to jobs where long hair may be a safety/health concern, such as fast food. > > Sure once you are with an employer for some time, you can go ahead and > let it grow. Hey, before coming to the States I had a pony-tail. > What I _was_ saying is that it _may_ be difficult to find work (of the sort > that pays well). Rmember that you are dealing with old-school thought when > you are out there. things are changing. The fact that I can wear a t-shirt > and jeans on Fridays is proof of that. The rest of the week I wear polo > shirts and casual pants. > I work in a corporate enviroment... I've worked in a corporate environment on the west coast. YOu don't get much more corporate than Boeing - and the only time my dress was ever mentioned was when I wore shorts to work - they simly asked that I not wear jean shorts to work, but canvas and khakis were fine. The idea of having to look "trim and sharp" for high-paying work is slowly turning out to be a myth. If you're trying for management, or sales, or similar, then it may well be an issue. However, many of the well-paying jobs that involve things like phone support, systems administration, etc., will not require that you cut your hair. And then, of course, there's the West Coast vs. East Coast thing. It sounds like you live/work probably east of the Rockies - where such things are an actual concern. But I know for a fact that after the interview, 90% of companies out here won't care about your appearance in gneeral/at all, as long as you meet certain basic hygeine requirements. In Eugene, if you are commuting up to Portland or working in a satellite office, you're probably talkign about Intel. And the things I said the "dressy" environment applying only to management apply in spades to Intel and other high tech companies. I have known people who've worked for Intel in entry- level positions, and there were no requirements for hair length, dress, or any such things. -Corey > > =Digi > _ _ > Digital Dragon, Clan Stormchaser //___// > digidrag@discovernet.net ICQ: 21109302 Alfandria: Digi /____/ ( > http://www.discovernet.net/~digidrag /^ ^/( > "Dragons have the true spirit of life." - Digi / ---- /;/ > "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit, the 2n /_____//// > is to look things in the face and know them for what `v---v'// > are." - Marcus Aurelius `===='~ > DC.?(D,t) f++ s+ h-- Cg|b,t:b a+ $+ m d+++ WL++*/WL+^* Fr-- L z e+++ g i-- > > > - > To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" > with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. > For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages > send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. > - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Subject: Re: (hdproject) More forms of lighting Date: 17 May 1999 16:35:15 -0400 >To run LEDs off DC all you need is a resistor to make sure they draw only >as much current as they need to emit light, usually about 20 mA (voltage >drop across a LED is fixed). How do you know what kind of resistor to use? As in how much resistance you need. In other words... can anyone here tell me how to craft one of these setups? Coyote - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Subject: Re: (hdproject) Hairy biz... Date: 17 May 1999 16:42:30 -0400 Corey Wrote: >I've had long hair since 1985, and I've had NO problem finding work. Not the >beginning office work I did, not the data entry not the clerical... None of >it. I'm now a systems administrator running Unix workstation and networks at >the enterprise level -if some prospective employer demands that I cut my hair, >afte the profanity flies, I will remind him or her that asking such a thing >is actually illegal (I cant' remember the statute, but it is under the same >rule as women cannot be required to wear dresses), and then if they insist, >I'll up my demand by $35K per year. Unfortunately, that is nto illegal everywhere. And employers can request certain standards of dress appropriate to the job (hairnets or protective clothing, but also certain types of appearance if you are working with the public). And most employers that don;t want to hire you for an illegal reason will simply say they chose not to hire you for another reason, such as finding a more suitable candidate. And chances are, if you have to bully your way into a workplace by threatening them with the law over your hair, you won;t have a fun time working there. For the record, nearly every place I've worked before my current job has hassled me about my hair, but I have browbeat tyhem into letting it go. When someone really makes an issue of it, I say that I keep my hair long for spiritual reasons and if they hassle me on THAT they are in for trouble. Coyote - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Subject: Re: (hdproject) Hairy biz... Date: 17 May 1999 16:45:08 -0400 Yhoni Wrote: >While on this subject, what about shaving and shavers? The disposable >ones are so wasteful!!! Well... for me... I have a beard, so I use scissors to trim my facial hair 99% of the time. Disposable razors are a waste, but don;t use electricity and arent; particularly dangerous. Stright razors aren;t disposable, and us eno electricity, but are hard to find and are easier to maul yourself with. Electric razors are re-usable until they burn out after many years, but require power. Coyote - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Landon Solomon Subject: Re: (hdproject) More forms of lighting Date: 17 May 1999 16:29:56 -0500 At 02:39 AM 5/16/99 -0500, you wrote: >At 09:13 PM 5/15/99 -0700, Grigs wrote: > >[stuff about bulb efficiency and superbright LEDs] > >>I would like to try amber or red LED lighting for night use in a house: >>occasional LEDs would provide just enough light to see where one is going >>and won't destroy night vision like white light does. Then if you need to >>read or cook you can turn on the big overhead lights. I too have an LED flashlight. 6000 MCD orange LED that's powered by a 3V lithium button cell. It's all packaged in the Rad Shack's smallest project case (normally reserved for car remotes.) It'll likely run an easy 12 hours on one cell. :) >I really like this idea. I was thinking of "smart house" type solutions >for light management, but this is more elegant and more in keeping with >KISS principles. Another advantage of LEDs, particularly in a hot climate, >is that you keep heat emissions way down. In a borderline climate, where >it's just cool enough to avoid using air conditioning but still pretty >toasty, this could be a noticable difference. Hhmmm... We _could_ stand to be rid of the living-room Halogen... }:) >Perhaps this might be a good reason to run a dual power system through the >house, one DC and one AC. The DC grid could be exclusively from renewable >sources, while the AC grid could be a combination of spillover from the >renewable system plus power from the public utility grid when needed. It >seems like a neat idea, but I'm not sure how much complexity or cost it >would add. If Trot doesn't post something here about it, I'll ask him >about feasibility next time I see him. Sounds like a winner... It would be easy enough to give the DC system a thresh-hold circuit so that if it drops below a set minimum voltage it lets the AC start working... There are also other equally easily ways of doing it, I just can't think of them right now. :] >Along those lines, Trot and I are currently experimenting with DC power >supplies for desktop computers in the hopes that coyotes.org might be able >to operate as an almost "green" server. It probably won't happen anytime >soon, but it keeps us out of trouble. It's also an interesting exercise to >see how much expense and effort is involved in this type of conversion. That's what you say... I got 450V RMS out of the experimental power supply on a weak 'square' 9V the other day... Now I just need some hi-V diodes and caps so I can hook up that voltage doubler. }:) >luck, >=Timber= You really think I'll need it? Trot, the fox who's fur seems to like standing on end all the sudden. :/ /\_/\ TrotFox \ Always remember, ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon \ "There is a >\_/< trotfox5@airmail.net \ third alternative." - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Landon Solomon Subject: Re: (hdproject) [LONG] More forms of lighting Date: 17 May 1999 17:29:49 -0500 Ok, many letters at once... :) At 10:57 PM 5/16/99 -0700, Rors wrote: >At some point in time, Coyote wrote... >DC shouldn't lose too much over the length that in buildings or even >possibly multiple building wiring will run. The first few city grids were >DC and they were likely a hell of a lot bigger than we will ever get. >Running different voltages of DC is probably not possible, but we should be >able to convert down from 12V to lower voltages for specialty applications. > (I think it can be done efficiently either with a transistor or with zener >diodes). A lot of things can be very easily converted to DC wiring >(anything that takes 8 batteries is as easy as running a wire into the >battery compartment). I like the idea of making some of the static loads >(like lights) DC and having AC available for those things that require it. DC should be fine for a complex like ours. Just need to be sure we have wiring that'll handle it. Best thing to do would be to have anything that requires large deals of power near the storage area. Shorter wires equal less loss. :) Regulating 12V down to whatever for other devices is easiest done with a zener diode setting the turn-off point for a series transister. This is a simple linear series regulator that'll handle as much current as the transistor can safely flow. A slightly more efficient (but more complex) way to do it is with a switching regulator. Both are doable but the first one converts more power over to heat as it resists the current flow. >>What about things that draw a lot? Like washers, dryers, freezers? Are we >>gonna try to forgo using electrical versions of these things altogether or >>find some way to power them efficiently? Can you use DC for that stuff? >>What about monitors? > >If we are going to try to generate a significant chunk of our own power we >won't want to use any big resisitive heating devices (Electric stoves, >ovens, dryers, space heaters, water heaters). If really neccesary we could >rig DC motors for refrigerators, freezers, or washers but this would be >quite a bit of trouble and may be less efficient than their AC >counterparts. If we are generating all of out own power putting in DC >motors would probably be more efficient than getting a large inverter but >if we are running a mixed system (generating some of our own power) then it >would probably be a better solution to run them off of AC line power and >have a big enough inverter to keep anything critical running if the line >power goes out. I am pretty sure that any monitor that we can find will >need AC power to run unfortunately. The inverter would definately be easiest... but the other is also doable depending on how much the DC motors are... I don't have a supply for large HP DC motors, do you? :) Anything that uses large resistive devices for heat generation can be made to work off a hot-water supply with some creative plumbing and use of a couple of heat exchangers (car radiators anyone..?) If our hot water were solar and/or gas produced... >>Seems like the non AC alternatives are always VERY expensive. LED computer >>screens are REALLY pricey. Same for propane-powered freezers. > >Small propane powered freezers are going to be pretty expensive because >they are a specialty item and so the price is jacked through the roof. We >may be able to get around this either be finding and refurbishing an older >unit or by looking around carefully and finding a small commercial cooling >unit and building the freezer box (walk in) ourselves. (I have read that a >number of commercial freezers of the largish type use the fire to ice >(ammonia) form of refrigeration. We may be able to find a new unit for a >decent price or we may be able to scavenge refrigeration units from some >place like a resteraunt that has gone out of business. Or just set up an insulated room and install a window AC unit perminately set to the lowest setting. :) They run on 110V and I'm sure could be easily converted to DC motors (largest power sucker, runs the compressor.) >Worse case is that we may want to try and build a refrigeration unit >ourselves, but this could be festive (stainless is fun to try and join >together). The principles are pretty simple but the application could take >a few tries to get right. Why not use readily available copper for the tubing? I assume you're talking about the evaporator and condensor when you're talking stainless? Otherwise, it _should_ be 'fairly' straitforward... >Hopefully we can cut some of our dependence on refrigerators with a good >root celler and maybe a spring house but freezers are a very wonderful >thing that have around. It would also be quite simple to run the lines of a small (household) AC unit into a root cellar for cooling... From another Ror's post... >I wouldn't mind red night lights. Nor would I. As soon as I find a convienient bulk supplyer of super-brights I'll start playing with them in this context. :) >Same LED's as any other. All they are is a special form of a transistor >junction, efficiency shouldn't vary too much between them. It's a special form of _Diode_. Light Emitting Diode. Jeez..., I can't take you people anywhere! Actually, the only thing special about them is the material they're made from. Galium Arsenide comes to mind... It's a clear Semiconductor so that the light normally given off at the P/N junction is allowed to escape. :) Efficiency is a matter of material of course, but they're all _much_ better than an incandescent for equal lumen outputs. :) >>As I recall, you need to use some other kinda electricalmological doohicky >>in the circuit that I don;t know what it is (transistor? resistor? another >>kinda diode?)... not just an LED and a battery... is that true? How did >you >>make your flashlights? All that's really needed is a resistor to control the current flow through the device. Another diode or two may be used to protest it from reverse voltage but most LEDs can handle high enough PIV (Peak Inverse Voltage) levels that it's not a neccesity. >I have a very simple little flashlight (got it from a computer booth) that >is two hearing aid batteries and an LED in a little plastic case. (It >touches the leads of the LED to the batteries to activate, couldn't get any >simpler. LED's usually need something like 3 to 4.5 volts DC to run. Actually, you greatly reduce the lifespan of the LED if you run it over it's rated current range. If you're using a power-source with high enough internal resistance then you don't need to worry about it, but I don't care to take chances. :) Oh yeah, average drop is about 1.2V but I've seen it go as low as 1V and as high as 2V. From Digi; >On Sun, May 16, 1999, at 07:44 PM, Coyote Osborne wrote: > >>> You can mix different colored LED lights and use a reflector to get more >>> natural looking light. An article I read a while back indicated that if >>> you > >hmmmm... basically mixing the primary colors to get more natural light... >hadn't really thought of that before. and I learned all that stuff in Art >class. Yes, sounds like it could be pulled off with a little creatice >placemnet. *grin* Yup, it's just painting with light. :) >Years and years ago a friend of mine made a simple radio using copper wire, >a speaker and some batteries (those were needed for amplifying the sound). >Basically a home-made variable resistor. I'm betting the same principle can >be applied here. Actually, what he likely had was a variable inductor. Resistors can and are made the same way but they'd be of little use in an analog radio exept for use as a volume control. ;) Coyote posted, >>To run LEDs off DC all you need is a resistor to make sure they draw only >>as much current as they need to emit light, usually about 20 mA (voltage >>drop across a LED is fixed). 20mA is about right for most normal Super-Brights... Normal ones use less and the really bright ones want a bit more. :) >How do you know what kind of resistor to use? As in how much resistance you >need. > >In other words... can anyone here tell me how to craft one of these setups? But of course, you had only to ask. :) Break out your calcuguesser and hold on to the specs for your LED though... You need to know three things. 1) What's the Average junction voltage of the LED? (Vj) 2) What's the average current required for the device? (Ij) 3) What voltage are you planning to use for powering the lil devil? (Vs) Basicly, take your power supply voltage (say, 12V) and subtract the Vj (1.2V) from it. Then take the number you get (10.8V) and devide that by the devices rated current (we'll say 20mA, or .02A.) This gets you 10.8/.02 which equals 540. This is the value of resistor you'll need. It may be important to be careful of your polarity in a circuit with that high a supply voltage though, most LEDs won't take more than 4 times their farward voltage when it's applied backwards. :) (but it's fun if you do it intentionally! }:) ) If you want more brightness and only want to use one resistor for more than one LED, string them in series (in a row) and add their voltage drops! There will be a quiz on friday. PS, to run LEDs off an AC supply, put a power diode in series with the LED that can handle the PIV you're dealing with.. Don't forget it's forward voltage drop though! Trot, the electrical, fox... :) /\_/\ TrotFox \ Always remember, ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon \ "There is a >\_/< trotfox5@airmail.net \ third alternative." - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Digital Dragon Subject: RE: (hdproject) Hairy biz... Date: 17 May 1999 19:52:23 -0400 (EST) On Mon, May 17, 1999, at 07:42 AM, Yhoneska Imtayme wrote: >> Yhoni raises she hand and waves.... I am passable good, and currently >> occasionally help my roommate with his "buzz" type hair cuts using >> clippers and shavers.... >> >> While on this subject, what about shaving and shavers? The disposable >> ones are so wasteful!!! There's alwys the tried and tested manual shaving, with traditional blades. Never actually used the traditional type myself though, only the modern twins and the electric (which I use now cause I do need to keep this beard in shape) =Digi _ _ Digital Dragon, Clan Stormchaser //___// digidrag@discovernet.net ICQ: 21109302 Alfandria: Digi /____/ ( http://www.discovernet.net/~digidrag /^ ^/( "Dragons have the true spirit of life." - Digi / ---- /;/ "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit, the 2n /_____//// is to look things in the face and know them for what `v---v'// are." - Marcus Aurelius `===='~ DC.?(D,t) f++ s+ h-- Cg|b,t:b a+ $+ m d+++ WL++*/WL+^* Fr-- L z e+++ g i-- - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fenris Subject: Re: (hdproject) Utilities, access, etc. Date: 17 May 1999 22:04:49 +0200 WSale31114@aol.com writes : > In a message dated 5/13/99 11:43:58 AM CST, coyote@coyotes.org writes: > > > Something I'm wondering... do dimmer switches really save power? I heard > > that some of them decrease the amount of light, but do it by creating more > > resistance... in other words, just wasting the same amount of power > > regardless of how much is being allowed to get to your lights. > > Same technology as switching power supplies, not nearly as sophisticated. I > suppose you could use a variable transformer for the lights too. Only > problem with using dimmers is that some lights tend to buzz and make noise at > certain settings. This problem can be easily solved. You have several solutions: 1- using a less powerful bulb 2- buy a more powerful dimmer 3- working with a higher frequency 4- working with a lower voltage > Oh, dimmers are only usable with regular bulbs. You can also use them with halogen bulbs and fluorescent tubes (with an electronic ballast) Fenris ICQ-25038511 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fenris Subject: Re: (hdproject) Utilities, access, etc. Date: 17 May 1999 22:04:31 +0200 Coyote writes : > Just to let ya know Fenris... you can get differential switches and circuit > breakers in the US. Most homes and buildings use circuit breakers now, and > many use differential or safety circuits in bathrooms (and even kitchens). > So it won;t be a problem to get those. I think that I have been misunderstood. I know that you can find differential switches and circuit breakers in the US. But you'll NEVER find those I'm looking for. I would like to change the earth wiring. In US, you use the TN earth wiring (norm : NEC ). I would use the TT earth wiring, because it's more safe. For the TT wiring, the circuit breakers are different for the TN wiring. Moreover, I tried a lot of brands. I was often disappointed. For example, we shouldn't use GE circuit breakers : they have mechanical problems and show sign of age very quickly. The conclusion is that I trust only in MERLIN-GERIN circuit breakers. The make good electric devices. It's not without reason that there commonly used in industry. The name of these products are : Compact UL (CM, CK, CJ, CF and CE) They are homologated by the Underwriters Laboratories (norm : UL 489 ) Other approvals : IEC, VDE, BS, UNE, NEMA, UTE. I send you a bottle of Champagne if you can find one these products in a hardware store. ; ) > One of the thigns that surprises me is taht there are apprently no > universal federal laws over here in the US about lightning protection. In > Florida, you have to have lightning rods attached to your house, but > apparently in some states you don;t. I suspect we'll want one. ; ) It' a good idea. But we should also protect the phone lines, the TV (lightning rod like them very much) and the electrical wiring. The devices needed can be easily found. Fenris ICQ-25038511 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fenris Subject: Re: (hdproject) Utilities, access, etc. Date: 17 May 1999 22:05:05 +0200 KatmanDu writes : > These are Ground Fault Circuit Interruptors... GFCI devices. Mandated by > code in much of the us for outlets that are close to water sources (ie, > bathroom and kitchen outlets). > > Home automation is turning into a big business, and a number of companies > are offering all-in-one solutions... coax, cat5 cable, audio cables, etc. > in one package; along with the multi-function outlets to connect the cables to. I think that buying one or two Differential Interruptors for the house will be less expensive than buying one Ground Fault Circuit Interruptors. Moreover, I prefer to see all the wiring protected. I don't want a kid to be electrocuted by putting a screwdriver or something else in an outlet. Kids have a lot of imagination for such things. Could have I more technical information on these devices ? Fenris ICQ-25038511 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Digital Dragon Subject: RE: (hdproject) Hairy biz... Date: 17 May 1999 21:31:53 -0400 (EST) On Mon, May 17, 1999, at 10:33 AM, Corwyn J. Alambar wrote: >> And then, of course, there's the West Coast vs. East Coast thing. It >> sounds like you live/work probably east of the Rockies - where such things are >> an actual concern. But I know for a fact that after the interview, 90% of >> companies out here won't care about your appearance in gneeral/at all, as >> long as you meet certain basic hygeine requirements. >> Almost as far East as you can get without landing in the ocean.... CT :) Nce to hear that things are more relaxed over there. =Digi _ _ Digital Dragon, Clan Stormchaser //___// digidrag@discovernet.net ICQ: 21109302 Alfandria: Digi /____/ ( http://www.discovernet.net/~digidrag /^ ^/( "Dragons have the true spirit of life." - Digi / ---- /;/ "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit, the 2n /_____//// is to look things in the face and know them for what `v---v'// are." - Marcus Aurelius `===='~ DC.?(D,t) f++ s+ h-- Cg|b,t:b a+ $+ m d+++ WL++*/WL+^* Fr-- L z e+++ g i-- - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KatmanDu Subject: Re: (hdproject) Hairy biz... Date: 18 May 1999 00:10:52 -0400 At 02:52 PM 5/16/99 -0400, you wrote: >Don't know if this has been thought of yet, but is there anyone willing to >take care of the haircut dept.? Haircuts for me are incredibly simple. Buzz off as much as you can with the clippers, then break out the shaving cream and razor... Actually, I've never had hair longer than a couple of inches in my life. I'm sort of interested in seeing what I'd look like with long hair. But that'll have to wait. katmandu1@home.com - members.home.net/katmandu1 - katmandu@arches.uga.edu "If the real Jesus Christ was to stand up today, He'd be gunned down cold by the CIA. Oh, the lights that burn brightest behind stained glass will cast the darkest shadows upon the human heart. But GOD didn't build *himself* that throne. GOD doesn't live in Israel or Rome. GOD doesn't belong to the yankee dollar. GOD doesn't plant the bombs for Hezbollah. GOD doesn't even go to church. And GOD won't send us down to Allah to burn. No, GOD will remind us what we already know- that the human race is about to reap what it's sown. The World is on its elbows and knees; it's forgotten the message and worships the creed." -The The, "Armageddon Days are Here Again" - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KatmanDu Subject: Re: (hdproject) More forms of lighting Date: 18 May 1999 00:18:14 -0400 At 07:44 PM 5/16/99 -0400, you wrote: >You can mix different colored LED lights and use a reflector to get more >natural looking light. An article I read a while back indicated that if you >buy the LED's seperately from an electronic supply house (Radio Shack is >probably not a good choice... expensive), you can get away for a lot less >money. One of those issues of "Home Power" magazine I had laying around had an article on LED lighting and the promise of "white" LEDs... now I gotta scrabble around and see if I can find it... >As I recall, you need to use some other kinda electricalmological doohicky >in the circuit that I don;t know what it is (transistor? resistor? another >kinda diode?)... not just an LED and a battery... is that true? How did you >make your flashlights? Resistor to match voltages. Cheap stuff- unless you buy from radio shack. :) katmandu1@home.com - members.home.net/katmandu1 - katmandu@arches.uga.edu "If the real Jesus Christ was to stand up today, He'd be gunned down cold by the CIA. Oh, the lights that burn brightest behind stained glass will cast the darkest shadows upon the human heart. But GOD didn't build *himself* that throne. GOD doesn't live in Israel or Rome. GOD doesn't belong to the yankee dollar. GOD doesn't plant the bombs for Hezbollah. GOD doesn't even go to church. And GOD won't send us down to Allah to burn. No, GOD will remind us what we already know- that the human race is about to reap what it's sown. The World is on its elbows and knees; it's forgotten the message and worships the creed." -The The, "Armageddon Days are Here Again" - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KatmanDu Subject: Re: (hdproject) More forms of lighting Date: 18 May 1999 00:27:44 -0400 At 04:35 PM 5/17/99 -0400, you wrote: >How do you know what kind of resistor to use? As in how much resistance you >need. E=IR or, Voltage=Amperage*Resistance. If you want 2 amp current at 12 volts, you need a resistor of: 12=2R R=12/2 R=6 ohms. katmandu1@home.com - members.home.net/katmandu1 - katmandu@arches.uga.edu "If the real Jesus Christ was to stand up today, He'd be gunned down cold by the CIA. Oh, the lights that burn brightest behind stained glass will cast the darkest shadows upon the human heart. But GOD didn't build *himself* that throne. GOD doesn't live in Israel or Rome. GOD doesn't belong to the yankee dollar. GOD doesn't plant the bombs for Hezbollah. GOD doesn't even go to church. And GOD won't send us down to Allah to burn. No, GOD will remind us what we already know- that the human race is about to reap what it's sown. The World is on its elbows and knees; it's forgotten the message and worships the creed." -The The, "Armageddon Days are Here Again" - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KatmanDu Subject: Re: (hdproject) Utilities, access, etc. Date: 18 May 1999 00:32:35 -0400 At 10:05 PM 5/17/99 +0200, you wrote: >I think that buying one or two Differential Interruptors for the house will >be less >expensive than buying one Ground Fault Circuit Interruptors. Moreover, I >prefer to >see all the wiring protected. I don't want a kid to be electrocuted by >putting a >screwdriver or something else in an outlet. Kids have a lot of imagination >for such >things. > >Could have I more technical information on these devices ? You can protect a series of outlets "downstream" from the GFCI with just one GFCI... but I don't know the price on them off-hand. Since they're required by code just about everywhere now, I expect they're not that expensive. katmandu1@home.com - members.home.net/katmandu1 - katmandu@arches.uga.edu "If the real Jesus Christ was to stand up today, He'd be gunned down cold by the CIA. Oh, the lights that burn brightest behind stained glass will cast the darkest shadows upon the human heart. But GOD didn't build *himself* that throne. GOD doesn't live in Israel or Rome. GOD doesn't belong to the yankee dollar. GOD doesn't plant the bombs for Hezbollah. GOD doesn't even go to church. And GOD won't send us down to Allah to burn. No, GOD will remind us what we already know- that the human race is about to reap what it's sown. The World is on its elbows and knees; it's forgotten the message and worships the creed." -The The, "Armageddon Days are Here Again" - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Spyder Subject: Re: (hdproject) Hairy biz... Date: 17 May 1999 23:46:52 -0600 At 12:10 AM -0400 5/18/1999, KatmanDu wrote: => => Haircuts for me are incredibly simple. Buzz off as much as you can with the => clippers, then break out the shaving cream and razor... Heh heh... one of those hairless cats like in Austin Powers, huh? => Actually, I've never had hair longer than a couple of inches in my life. => I'm sort of interested in seeing what I'd look like with long hair. But => that'll have to wait. After sporting buzzed hair for a few years, and short hair before that for most of my life (about three inches,) I've decided to just let it grow now. I want a ponytail by the end of the year (which I can easily do at the phenomenal rate mine grows. Yeesh! =1) So don't worry about haircuts for me. ;1 And I have both an electric razor and Maverick beard trimmer, both of which are rechargable, and they both last about a week to two per overnight charging. I've had them both for several years, they're pennies to run, and I haven't had to change the NiCad batteries in either (or the blades for that matter) to this date. I highly recommend them to all men. =) Spyder "We're living at the end of a world and the beginning of a NEW one." - Fenris, April 1999 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Spyder Subject: Re: (hdproject) More forms of lighting Date: 17 May 1999 23:48:27 -0600 At 12:18 AM -0400 5/18/1999, KatmanDu wrote: => => One of those issues of "Home Power" magazine I had laying around had an => article on LED lighting and the promise of "white" LEDs... now I gotta => scrabble around and see if I can find it... I recall seeing an ad about a car on the market already that used bright white LEDs instead of headlights. Coulda been a concept car in PopMech, though... Spyder "We're living at the end of a world and the beginning of a NEW one." - Fenris, April 1999 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSale31114@aol.com Subject: Re: (hdproject) More forms of lighting Date: 18 May 1999 02:31:33 EDT In a message dated 5/17/99 11:52:48 PM CST, spyder@xmission.com writes: > => One of those issues of "Home Power" magazine I had laying around had an > => article on LED lighting and the promise of "white" LEDs... now I gotta > => scrabble around and see if I can find it... > > I recall seeing an ad about a car on the market already that used bright > white LEDs instead of headlights. Coulda been a concept > car in PopMech, though... LEDs are already being used in brake light assemblies. Don't think they'd be practical for regular lights thou, need a very intense light in a reflector to be usable at any distance. So what do you electrical folks think of making lengths of plastic tubing with wires and LED embedded inside them(like some of the chaser light setups). The LED are spaced every two or three feet and peer out thru the tubing - we just make sure tubing is aligned properly as we staple it to walls or ceilings, then use a little stucco to make it look like custom moldings with LED in it. :) Will have to look thru my junk box and see what the specs on the LEDs I bought for use in a costume are. Been wanting to fool around with LED for a long time. Flenser - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: grigsby@netgate.net Subject: Re: (hdproject) More forms of lighting Date: 18 May 1999 00:22:42 -0700 >How do you know what kind of resistor to use? As in how much resistance you >need. V = IR. LEDs, as do all diodes, cause a fixed voltage drop (0.6-1.8V) across their circuit, so if you put one across 12V you'll get (say) 10.5V. You want 20 mA, so: 10.5V = .02A * R R = 10.5V / .02A R = 525 Ohms: use a common 500 Ohm 10% resistor in series with the LED. Low-current resistors cost pennies, perhaps a dime or two at Radio Shack. It's been a long time since I did electronics (11th grade), and I never really did grok Ebers-Moll, so anyone with more experience should feel free to contradict me here. But I'm pretty sure I can deal with V = IR, P = IV, and op-amps, and given a copy of Horowitz and Hill I can whack out some RLC filters. // grigs - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KatmanDu Subject: Re: (hdproject) More forms of lighting Date: 18 May 1999 12:26:34 -0400 At 11:48 PM 5/17/99 -0600, you wrote: >I recall seeing an ad about a car on the market already that used bright >white LEDs instead of headlights. Coulda been a concept >car in PopMech, though... They're starting to sell emergency lights that use LED's instead of strobe lights now... higher prices for blue and green LED's. katmandu1@home.com - members.home.net/katmandu1 - katmandu@arches.uga.edu "If the real Jesus Christ was to stand up today, He'd be gunned down cold by the CIA. Oh, the lights that burn brightest behind stained glass will cast the darkest shadows upon the human heart. But GOD didn't build *himself* that throne. GOD doesn't live in Israel or Rome. GOD doesn't belong to the yankee dollar. GOD doesn't plant the bombs for Hezbollah. GOD doesn't even go to church. And GOD won't send us down to Allah to burn. No, GOD will remind us what we already know- that the human race is about to reap what it's sown. The World is on its elbows and knees; it's forgotten the message and worships the creed." -The The, "Armageddon Days are Here Again" - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fenris Subject: Re: (hdproject) More forms of lighting Date: 18 May 1999 21:43:25 +0200 If we want to use a dual power system, we must verify several things : -We must put filters on DC motors (personally, I think that DC motors for freezer is not a good solution ) . They produce too many interference that can damage all the electronics devices (computers, radio, Hi-Fi systems,...). -The DC wiring is different from the AC wiring. The fuses or the circuit-breakers are different. They don't use exactly the same technology. We must buy specific fuses. -The length of the wires mustn't be too long, otherwise the loss of power will be too important and the fuses will never work. It's not without reason that high voltage is used for long distance. More higher is the voltage, less important is the loss of power. -We must find a compatible DC voltage: 12 V or 24 V could be interesting. -the DC wiring and the AC wiring mustn't use the same P.V.C. pipes (because of interference) -Even if it's a expensive technology, we should buy a inverter. It will be useful for several reasons : * it'll protect computers against breakdown, * it'll protect the current against interference, * We could use a different earth wiring, * Low DC voltage is less dangerous than high AC voltage, * it'll regulate the voltage (very useful if we want to buy solar panels). I think that a MGE UPS system will be interesting, like : EPS 2000 (40 to 80 kVA) ALPS 1000 (30 to 360 kVA) If we buy an inverter, we should put special outlets for computers. Are you still agree for a dual power system ? Fenris ICQ-25038511 Rorschach writes : > At 07:54 PM 5/16/99 -0400, you wrote: > >Timberwolf Wrote: > >>Perhaps this might be a good reason to run a dual power system through the > >>house, one DC and one AC. > > > >I've seen that recommended in a couple places. An inverter for DC to AC > >causes you to lose 10% or _more_ of your energy. But DC becomes less > >efficient the longer the wires are, and it isn;t as easy to provide power > >to many things that use different voltages with DC. Also, of course, there > >are many more AC appliances out there. Many of the recommendations I've > >seen have been for using DC for lighting and small appliances, and AC for > >the rest. > > DC shouldn't lose too much over the length that in buildings or even > possibly multiple building wiring will run. The first few city grids were > DC and they were likely a hell of a lot bigger than we will ever get. > Running different voltages of DC is probably not possible, but we should be > able to convert down from 12V to lower voltages for specialty applications. > (I think it can be done efficiently either with a transistor or with zener > diodes). A lot of things can be very easily converted to DC wiring > (anything that takes 8 batteries is as easy as running a wire into the > battery compartment). I like the idea of making some of the static loads > (like lights) DC and having AC available for those things that require it. > > >What about things that draw a lot? Like washers, dryers, freezers? Are we > >gonna try to forgo using electrical versions of these things altogether or > >find some way to power them efficiently? Can you use DC for that stuff? > >What about monitors? > > If we are going to try to generate a significant chunk of our own power we > won't want to use any big resisitive heating devices (Electric stoves, > ovens, dryers, space heaters, water heaters). If really neccesary we could > rig DC motors for refrigerators, freezers, or washers but this would be > quite a bit of trouble and may be less efficient than their AC > counterparts. If we are generating all of out own power putting in DC > motors would probably be more efficient than getting a large inverter but > if we are running a mixed system (generating some of our own power) then it > would probably be a better solution to run them off of AC line power and > have a big enough inverter to keep anything critical running if the line > power goes out. I am pretty sure that any monitor that we can find will > need AC power to run unfortunately. > > >Seems like the non AC alternatives are always VERY expensive. LED computer > >screens are REALLY pricey. Same for propane-powered freezers. > > Small propane powered freezers are going to be pretty expensive because > they are a specialty item and so the price is jacked through the roof. We > may be able to get around this either be finding and refurbishing an older > unit or by looking around carefully and finding a small commercial cooling > unit and building the freezer box (walk in) ourselves. (I have read that a > number of commercial freezers of the largish type use the fire to ice > (ammonia) form of refrigeration. We may be able to find a new unit for a > decent price or we may be able to scavenge refrigeration units from some > place like a resteraunt that has gone out of business. > > Worse case is that we may want to try and build a refrigeration unit > ourselves, but this could be festive (stainless is fun to try and join > together). The principles are pretty simple but the application could take > a few tries to get right. > > Hopefully we can cut some of our dependence on refrigerators with a good > root celler and maybe a spring house but freezers are a very wonderful > thing that have around. > - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSale31114@aol.com Subject: Re: (hdproject) More forms of lighting Date: 18 May 1999 20:57:28 EDT In a message dated 5/18/99 1:42:29 PM CST, clatour@easynet.fr writes: > -We must find a compatible DC voltage: 12 V or 24 V could be interesting. Some of the large solar/inverter systems run at 48 volts. It shouldn't be too difficult to have several voltages available in the DC system as a lot of that stuff should be fairly low power. Cables carrying power to feed inverters scattered around area will be sort of large but shouldn't be much trouble. > -the DC wiring and the AC wiring mustn't use the same P.V.C. pipes (because > of interference) Yep. Power surges might cause some problems. If we use a couple inverters to supply individual AC power for various areas the surges should be a lot less. Perhaps have two or three sine wave inverters supplying power for all the computers and other sensitive equipment, with one or two 5,000 watt Trace inverter supplying power to machine shop and kitchen. Flenser - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rorschach Subject: RE: (hdproject) Hairy biz... Date: 17 May 1999 20:47:22 -0700 At 07:29 AM 5/17/99 -0400, you wrote: >On Mon, May 17, 1999, at 01:43 AM, Corwyn J. Alambar wrote: > > >>> If I may step in here... >>> >>> Bu*beep*it. >>> >>-----snip----- > >>> afte the profanity flies, I will remind him or her that asking such a >>> thing is actually illegal (I cant' remember the statute, but it is under the >>> same rule as women cannot be required to wear dresses), and then if they >>> insist, I'll up my demand by $35K per year. >>> > >And you'll probably _not_ get the job for pointing things like that out >during an interview. Before you argue that that would be illegal, let me >say that they will find a reason why they did not hire you. > > Sure once you are with an employer for some time, you can go ahead and > let it grow. Hey, before coming to the States I had a pony-tail. >What I _was_ saying is that it _may_ be difficult to find work (of the sort >that pays well). Rmember that you are dealing with old-school thought when >you are out there. things are changing. The fact that I can wear a t-shirt >and jeans on Fridays is proof of that. The rest of the week I wear polo >shirts and casual pants. >I work in a corporate enviroment... Also definitely depends on the Coast that you are on and the position that you are in. I just got a job at a Clothing chain's Corporate main office and they didn't blink twice at the long hair or the beard (it's a suit and tie job though.. ick!) but in previously applying for a front desk job at a Motorcycle shop I was told I would probably have to lose the hair because I couldn't wear a hat to hide it under. The west coast is a whole lot more lenient than the east but some (not all though) front end customer contact positions are still very strick as to appearance requirements. . . Rors (Rorschach) | \ / | |/ """ \? A simple pattern of Black and White? //,\ /,\\ Within you can find images, reflections, maybe balance. \ |_| / We walk a risky path: alone, yet not: whole, yet fractured. `=' "Sometimes the wolves are silent and the moon is howling" - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rorschach Subject: Re: (hdproject) [LONG] More forms of lighting Date: 17 May 1999 21:08:25 -0700 At 05:29 PM 5/17/99 -0500, you wrote: >Ok, many letters at once... :) > >At 10:57 PM 5/16/99 -0700, Rors wrote: >>At some point in time, Coyote wrote... >>If we are going to try to generate a significant chunk of our own power we >>won't want to use any big resisitive heating devices (Electric stoves, >>ovens, dryers, space heaters, water heaters). If really neccesary we could >>rig DC motors for refrigerators, freezers, or washers but this would be >>quite a bit of trouble and may be less efficient than their AC >>counterparts. If we are generating all of out own power putting in DC >>motors would probably be more efficient than getting a large inverter but >>if we are running a mixed system (generating some of our own power) then it >>would probably be a better solution to run them off of AC line power and >>have a big enough inverter to keep anything critical running if the line >>power goes out. I am pretty sure that any monitor that we can find will >>need AC power to run unfortunately. > >The inverter would definately be easiest... but the other is also doable >depending on how much the DC motors are... I don't have a supply for large >HP DC motors, do you? :) Anything that uses large resistive devices for >heat generation can be made to work off a hot-water supply with some >creative plumbing and use of a couple of heat exchangers (car radiators >anyone..?) If our hot water were solar and/or gas produced... Hot water isn't enough to run an oven or a stovetop though so some alternate may need to be found for them. >>Small propane powered freezers are going to be pretty expensive because >>they are a specialty item and so the price is jacked through the roof. We >>may be able to get around this either be finding and refurbishing an older >>unit or by looking around carefully and finding a small commercial cooling >>unit and building the freezer box (walk in) ourselves. (I have read that a >>number of commercial freezers of the largish type use the fire to ice >>(ammonia) form of refrigeration. We may be able to find a new unit for a >>decent price or we may be able to scavenge refrigeration units from some >>place like a resteraunt that has gone out of business. > >Or just set up an insulated room and install a window AC unit perminately >set to the lowest setting. :) They run on 110V and I'm sure could be >easily converted to DC motors (largest power sucker, runs the compressor.) Better to find a commercial cooler (even of the standard compressor type) than to try this with an AC. AC likely will not hold up to the continuous use and the sometimes moist (condensation) environment inside of a refrigerator. >>Worse case is that we may want to try and build a refrigeration unit >>ourselves, but this could be festive (stainless is fun to try and join >>together). The principles are pretty simple but the application could take >>a few tries to get right. > >Why not use readily available copper for the tubing? I assume you're >talking about the evaporator and condensor when you're talking stainless? >Otherwise, it _should_ be 'fairly' straitforward... If we are building an ammonia base system (where we can use heat to run the refrigeration cycle) the compressed ammonia can eat the copper tubing, I think. If we are using a standard system then we should be able to buy a lot better quality than we can build ourselves. >>Hopefully we can cut some of our dependence on refrigerators with a good >>root celler and maybe a spring house but freezers are a very wonderful >>thing that have around. > >It would also be quite simple to run the lines of a small (household) AC >unit into a root cellar for cooling... Once again though that is putting a lot of dependence on running large motors for the compressor which we are likely trying to get away from. >>Same LED's as any other. All they are is a special form of a transistor >>junction, efficiency shouldn't vary too much between them. > >It's a special form of _Diode_. Light Emitting Diode. Jeez..., I can't >take you people anywhere! Actually, the only thing special about them is >the material they're made from. Galium Arsenide comes to mind... It's a >clear Semiconductor so that the light normally given off at the P/N >junction is allowed to escape. :) Efficiency is a matter of material of >course, but they're all _much_ better than an incandescent for equal lumen >outputs. :) D-OH! I knew that (slaps head), just couldn't come up with the work for the junction (ie diode). >Actually, you greatly reduce the lifespan of the LED if you run it over >it's rated current range. If you're using a power-source with high enough >internal resistance then you don't need to worry about it, but I don't care >to take chances. :) Oh yeah, average drop is about 1.2V but I've seen it >go as low as 1V and as high as 2V. Cool, thank you for the better info. . . Rors (Rorschach) | \ / | |/ """ \? A simple pattern of Black and White? //,\ /,\\ Within you can find images, reflections, maybe balance. \ |_| / We walk a risky path: alone, yet not: whole, yet fractured. `=' "Sometimes the wolves are silent and the moon is howling" - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rorschach Subject: Re: (hdproject) More forms of lighting Date: 18 May 1999 22:46:07 -0700 At 09:43 PM 5/18/99 +0200, you wrote: >If we want to use a dual power system, we must verify several things : > >-We must put filters on DC motors (personally, I think that DC motors for >freezer is not a good solution ) . They produce too many interference that can >damage all the electronics devices (computers, radio, Hi-Fi systems,...). What kind of interference? If it is magnetic that can be sheilded against both by proximity and by a proper grounding setup. (A walk in freezer's cooler is in the back of it, pretty far from any electronics). If it is AC noise on the line that should be able to be filtered off with some decent size capacitors. I am not going all out for DC motors, just saying that they (including any problems) should be balanced against buying a large enough inverter to run a lot of AC motors if we don't have line AC available to us. >-The DC wiring is different from the AC wiring. The fuses or the >circuit-breakers are different. They don't use exactly the same technology. We >must buy specific fuses. /nods >-The length of the wires mustn't be too long, otherwise the loss of power will >be too important and the fuses will never work. It's not without reason that >high voltage is used for long distance. More higher is the voltage, less >important is the loss of power. > >-We must find a compatible DC voltage: 12 V or 24 V could be interesting. 12V seems to have the most equipment out their for it, including a lot of smaller motors and electronic devices. >-the DC wiring and the AC wiring mustn't use the same P.V.C. pipes (because of >interference) I would think that seperating them might be a good idea just for redundancies sake, but interference shouldn't be a huge problem. DC line creates a static magnetic feild, which I don't think will mess up AC (because the AC wire is not being moved in relation to the DC line to generate a current). The AC line with it's varying magnetic field will set up an AC interference on the DC line, but once again this can be filtered off pretty easy with well placed capacitors. (As far as I understand it. Am I missing something critical here?) >-Even if it's a expensive technology, we should buy a inverter. It will be >useful for several reasons : > >* it'll protect computers against breakdown, >* it'll protect the current against interference, >* We could use a different earth wiring, >* Low DC voltage is less dangerous than high AC voltage, >* it'll regulate the voltage (very useful if we want to buy solar panels). I agree that we should buy an inverter but we will need to keep it (or them) as small as possible in order to avoid forking out a rather huge chunk of money. >I think that a MGE UPS system will be interesting, like : >EPS 2000 (40 to 80 kVA) >ALPS 1000 (30 to 360 kVA) If we have DC storage, our power system is effectively a UPS. Adding an additional UPS for anything not totally critical (and I don't see most things that we might be running besides an internet server or something as this critical) would be doubling the loss of efficiency. UPS inverters also tend to be (from what I have been hearing) pretty shoddy. (computer switching power supplies will take something pretty close to a square wave without complaining too much and that is about what a lot of UPS' generate). All a UPS is, is a battery charger, a battery bank, and a small inverter with a pretty case and some flashing lights attached to it. >If we buy an inverter, we should put special outlets for computers. I would rather put a good power strip in than to run special plugs or wiring. Computers tend to migrate a lot easier than outlets do. >Are you still agree for a dual power system ? It is definetely something to consider, but the final decision will have to be based on what we end up with and what we can afford like so many other things. . . Rors (Rorschach) | \ / | |/ """ \? A simple pattern of Black and White? //,\ /,\\ Within you can find images, reflections, maybe balance. \ |_| / We walk a risky path: alone, yet not: whole, yet fractured. `=' "Sometimes the wolves are silent and the moon is howling" - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rorschach Subject: Re: (hdproject) More forms of lighting Date: 18 May 1999 22:53:25 -0700 At 02:31 AM 5/18/99 EDT, you wrote: >So what do you electrical folks think of making lengths of plastic tubing >with wires and LED embedded inside them(like some of the chaser light >setups). The LED are spaced every two or three feet and peer out thru the >tubing - we just make sure tubing is aligned properly as we staple it to >walls or ceilings, then use a little stucco to make it look like custom >moldings with LED in it. :) I am much more of a fan of indirect lighting. Either have strips of spaced out LED's that point at the ceiling or have brighter clusters of led that are spaced further apart. Either way it would be the light that we see and not the LED's (which are kind of ugly little points of light) themselves. Something similar could be done with flourescents, paired in opposite phase to cancel the flicker, and bouncing the light off of the ceiling rather than trying to diffuse it with an ugly platic light panel or looking at the bulb itself. This effect can give a very nice light to an area, especially if the right tone of paint is used so that it gives some warmth to the light. . . Rors (Rorschach) | \ / | |/ """ \? A simple pattern of Black and White? //,\ /,\\ Within you can find images, reflections, maybe balance. \ |_| / We walk a risky path: alone, yet not: whole, yet fractured. `=' "Sometimes the wolves are silent and the moon is howling" - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: grigsby@netgate.net Subject: RE: (hdproject) Hairy biz... Date: 19 May 1999 00:49:52 -0700 > Sure once you are with an employer for some time, you can go ahead and > let it grow. Hey, before coming to the States I had a pony-tail. While in college, I made only three hard and fast rules for any job I would take. I still have them. 1) I will not take a drug test 2) I will not cut my hair 3) I will not wear a tie The reason so many employers can do evil things to people is that people consent to have these evil things done. More reasons to graduate college and/or learn uncommon trades -- if you are easily replaceable someone with lower standards will eventually replace you. This is why they have grooming codes for cashiers and greeters: because any monkey can do those jobs. // grigs - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Digital Dragon Subject: RE: (hdproject) More forms of lighting Date: 19 May 1999 07:33:23 -0400 (EST) On Tue, May 18, 1999, at 10:46 PM, Rorschach wrote: >> If we have DC storage, our power system is effectively a UPS. Adding an >> additional UPS for anything not totally critical (and I don't see most >> things that we might be running besides an internet server or something as >> this critical) would be doubling the loss of efficiency. UPS inverters >> also tend to be (from what I have been hearing) pretty shoddy. (computer >> switching power supplies will take something pretty close to a square wave >> without complaining too much and that is about what a lot of UPS' >> generate). All a UPS is, is a battery charger, a battery bank, and a >> small inverter with a pretty case and some flashing lights attached to it. HEH! UPS is that alright. We had rows of battery packs for the UPS system, and they don't last too long when running a big mainframe :) Usually long enough to do a system shutdown. Buuut I seem to remember having an alternate power source though, when the regular source failed for some reason. We switched over to main power (standard houshold type). The battery packs acted as a go-between till all the power supplies could get switched over to mains. =Digi _ _ Digital Dragon, Clan Stormchaser //___// digidrag@discovernet.net ICQ: 21109302 Alfandria: Digi /____/ ( http://www.discovernet.net/~digidrag /^ ^/( "Dragons have the true spirit of life." - Digi / ---- /;/ "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit, the 2n /_____//// is to look things in the face and know them for what `v---v'// are." - Marcus Aurelius `===='~ DC.?(D,t) f++ s+ h-- Cg|b,t:b a+ $+ m d+++ WL++*/WL+^* Fr-- L z e+++ g i-- - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Osborne Subject: Re: (hdproject) Hairy biz... Date: 19 May 1999 19:05:45 -0400 >So don't worry about haircuts for me. ;1 And I have both an electric razor >and Maverick beard trimmer, both of which are rechargable, and they both >last about a week to two per overnight charging. I've had them both for >several years, they're pennies to run, and I haven't had to change the >NiCad batteries in either (or the blades for that matter) to this date. I >highly recommend them to all men. =) I personally avoid anythign with a rechargeable battery whenever possible... I've never had to use anythgin like that away form an outlet (now having said that I'll need a drill in the middle of nowhere). I have a norelco razor with trimmer attachment that has survived my beard trimming since 1986, when I started shaving. I killed three other shavers inside a week with the barbed wire that grows outta my face. Until I was 19-20 I shaved my face because I only grew hair in patches. : P Coyote --- Why do I think U-Haul is Evil? Planning to rent a truck? Before you do, please read about my Nightmare in Moving at: http://www.coyotes.org/~consumer/index.phtml --- John "Coyote" Osborne 113 Highland Park Drive, Athens GA, 30605-3577 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Osborne Subject: Re: (hdproject) More forms of lighting Date: 19 May 1999 19:08:06 -0400 Flenser Wrote: >So what do you electrical folks think of making lengths of plastic tubing >with wires and LED embedded inside them(like some of the chaser light >setups). I like it. >The LED are spaced every two or three feet and peer out thru the >tubing - we just make sure tubing is aligned properly as we staple it to >walls or ceilings, then use a little stucco to make it look like custom >moldings with LED in it. :) As long as we can still get to any that eventually burn out or are damaged. I know it'll take a long time though. >Will have to look thru my junk box and see what the specs on the LEDs I >bought for use in a costume are. Been wanting to fool around with LED for a >long time. I'd like to see the costume! what kind is it? Did you by them for glowing eyes? Coyote --- Why do I think U-Haul is Evil? Planning to rent a truck? Before you do, please read about my Nightmare in Moving at: http://www.coyotes.org/~consumer/index.phtml --- John "Coyote" Osborne 113 Highland Park Drive, Athens GA, 30605-3577 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Osborne Subject: RE: (hdproject) Hairy biz... OTP Date: 19 May 1999 19:29:00 -0400 >> Sure once you are with an employer for some time, you can go ahead and >> let it grow. Hey, before coming to the States I had a pony-tail. > >While in college, I made only three hard and fast rules for any job I would >take. I still have them. > >1) I will not take a drug test >2) I will not cut my hair >3) I will not wear a tie Well said. My biggie is number one. I might _conceivably_ be talked into the other two for the right $$$ or in utter desperation. But gee.. for some reason, none of the jobs where they want me to cut my hair or wear a tie pay well anyway. I wonder why that is... BTW... I don't take drugs... but I refuse to be humiliated by anyone asking me to relinquish bodily materials or excretions for their scrutiny. If I won't let someone stick their finger in my nose, then they also cannot have my piss. Or my fingerprints. My body is a temple, and only I get to defile it. I will not subject my body and my person to abuse or disrespect by others. To me, this seems more like a humiliation issue than an employer actually doing something necessary. If they can get you to pee in a cup, they can get you to take their shit. I have accepted jobs (my current one included) with the stipulation that if they ever ask for a drug test I will quit on the spot, and to consider my initial warning to be my only notice. I expect my employer to know me well enough to know that I do not do drugs. >The reason so many employers can do evil things to people is that people >consent to have these evil things done. More reasons to graduate college >and/or learn uncommon trades -- if you are easily replaceable someone with >lower standards will eventually replace you. This is why they have >grooming codes for cashiers and greeters: because any monkey can do those >jobs. Good points... while I am FAR more replaceable than you are, even I have been able to use the argument "Are you concerned with my hair, or with having someone capable of doing the work?" If someone else can do your job, expect your employer to know it and to take advantage. Be as indispensable as you can be without going insane. And if your employer asks you to do things that make you unhappy or control your appearance or your life at the interview, expect it to get worse after you start working there. I think it is important to have standards in life and stick to em. Coyote --- Why do I think U-Haul is Evil? Planning to rent a truck? Before you do, please read about my Nightmare in Moving at: http://www.coyotes.org/~consumer/index.phtml --- John "Coyote" Osborne 113 Highland Park Drive, Athens GA, 30605-3577 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSale31114@aol.com Subject: Re: (hdproject) More forms of lighting Date: 19 May 1999 19:52:52 EDT In a message dated 5/19/99 5:31:15 PM CST, coyote@coyotes.org writes: > >Will have to look thru my junk box and see what the specs on the LEDs I > >bought for use in a costume are. Been wanting to fool around with LED for > a > >long time. > > I'd like to see the costume! what kind is it? Did you by them for glowing > eyes? I'd seen a music video by Diana Ross long ago, her dancing partner was a werewolf with glowing eyes. They actually didn't glow, tiny little penlight bulbs were set into the muzzle aimed back and up into his eyes. Neat effect in low light but totally impractical for use in a crowded room. I was blind as the proverbial bat with those high intensity red LED shining into my eyes. :( Don't have the mask finished but one of these days I'll rebuild it completely and it'll be nice. ;) Flenser - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Digital Dragon Subject: (hdproject) Lighting: conclusions Date: 19 May 1999 20:28:38 -0400 (EST) Soooo, it seems we are in agreement on the following things here: The use of LEDs (indirect) for regualar lighting, and 'real' lights for things like cooking, reading, building / repairwork, etc. The use of dual power fo some sort. AC and something else. Power lines to be hidden in some way, with access points at key locations. =Digi _ _ Digital Dragon, Clan Stormchaser //___// digidrag@discovernet.net ICQ: 21109302 Alfandria: Digi /____/ ( http://www.discovernet.net/~digidrag /^ ^/( "Dragons have the true spirit of life." - Digi / ---- /;/ "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit, the 2n /_____//// is to look things in the face and know them for what `v---v'// are." - Marcus Aurelius `===='~ DC.?(D,t) f++ s+ h-- Cg|b,t:b a+ $+ m d+++ WL++*/WL+^* Fr-- L z e+++ g i-- - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rorschach Subject: Re: (hdproject) Lighting: conclusions Date: 22 May 1999 22:09:30 -0700 At 08:28 PM 5/19/99 -0400, you wrote: > >Soooo, it seems we are in agreement on the following things here: > >The use of LEDs (indirect) for regualar lighting, and 'real' lights for >things like cooking, reading, building / repairwork, etc. I don;t know if the LED's will be enough for regular lighting (They may end up too expensive to get in that kind of quantity). I was thinking them more likely for night lighting type uses. Things like hallways will probably need more light in the daytime and for times when we can't use sunlight probably indirect flourescent (set up to cancel the flicker) is probably a good solution. Compact flourescent may be a good solution for reading/work lights if we can get types with an electronic ballast that do not have the 60hz flicker. Any Flourescent run off of DC will not have a flicker because they must have an electronic ballast, but these can still use standard tubes. >The use of dual power fo some sort. AC and something else. Power lines to >be hidden in some way, with access points at key locations. Nod. In some ways I like the flexibility that suspended ceilings can give, but they are kind of ugly and can be a huge collector of dust. I like the idea of setting some sort of a duct path in the walls, possibly with a removable face plate for access to the wiring. Ease of wiring and plumbing is a very good reason to have a floor that is suspended above the earth (wood floors) and a crawlspace or basement below. Wires can be run on the ceiling of the basement (maybe above a suspended ceiling) and the only place that we can't access them is where the go through the floor and into the living area. With good planning and PVC ducts laid into place during construction this may be a good way to get power,network,etc to the second floor as well but this gets a bit harder. . . Rors (Rorschach) | \ / | |/ """ \? A simple pattern of Black and White? //,\ /,\\ Within you can find images, reflections, maybe balance. \ |_| / We walk a risky path: alone, yet not: whole, yet fractured. `=' "Sometimes the wolves are silent and the moon is howling" - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rorschach Subject: Re: (hdproject) Utilities, access, etc. Date: 22 May 1999 22:24:39 -0700 At 10:04 PM 5/17/99 +0200, you wrote: > > >Coyote writes : > >> Just to let ya know Fenris... you can get differential switches and circuit >> breakers in the US. Most homes and buildings use circuit breakers now, and >> many use differential or safety circuits in bathrooms (and even kitchens). >> So it won;t be a problem to get those. > >I think that I have been misunderstood. > >I know that you can find differential switches and circuit breakers in the US. >But you'll NEVER find those I'm looking for. I would like to change the earth >wiring. In US, you use the TN earth wiring (norm : NEC ). I would use the TT >earth wiring, because it's more safe. For the TT wiring, the circuit breakers >are different for the TN wiring. > >Moreover, I tried a lot of brands. I was often disappointed. For example, we >shouldn't use GE circuit breakers : they have mechanical problems and show sign >of age very quickly. The conclusion is that I trust only in MERLIN-GERIN >circuit breakers. The make good electric devices. It's not without reason that >there commonly used in industry. > >The name of these products are : Compact UL (CM, CK, CJ, CF and CE) >They are homologated by the Underwriters Laboratories (norm : UL 489 ) >Other approvals : IEC, VDE, BS, UNE, NEMA, UTE. > >I send you a bottle of Champagne if you can find one these products in a >hardware store. ; ) This is a distinct problem. I would REALLY like to be able to go the the hardware store and use off the shelf parts to replace some part of the electrical system that has died or to add on to it when doing new construction. It is very frustrating having to order parts from far away in order to do something and can be a hazard if the parts are unavailable for a time and a solution has to be jury-rigged. US electricity is not hazardous enough (IMO) to go to extreme lengths in money or effort to protect against it. 110 at 60 cycles is very rarely fatal (and usually that is cause by being well grounded by some extremety that forces the current across your heart). 220 and 440 (if we have any) need very good protection because they can be pretty immediately fatal, but these voltages are rare in residences (which will usually have a couple 220 plugs that almost never get un-plugged). If we follow or exceed code using commonly available equipment we should be able to get a reasonably safe system without spending huge amounts of money. The scenario that you laid out with a person being electricuted in the shower by a hot water heater can be protected against by making sure that there is a section of the hot ware piping that is metal and that is grounded to earth located beside the hot water tank before it splits off to the rest of the house. If the tank short out the shortest path to ground is through the pipe that is right beside it and it will throw the breaker. (This is also only a risk if we use electricity to heat water, which I would like to see use get away from). >> One of the thigns that surprises me is taht there are apprently no >> universal federal laws over here in the US about lightning protection. In >> Florida, you have to have lightning rods attached to your house, but >> apparently in some states you don;t. I suspect we'll want one. ; ) > >It' a good idea. But we should also protect the phone lines, the TV (lightning >rod like them very much) and the electrical wiring. The devices needed can be >easily found. Grounding is required on phones, I think and often Cable TV lines will have a true ground wired into them. The more that we have grounded the better. . . Rors (Rorschach) | \ / | |/ """ \? A simple pattern of Black and White? //,\ /,\\ Within you can find images, reflections, maybe balance. \ |_| / We walk a risky path: alone, yet not: whole, yet fractured. `=' "Sometimes the wolves are silent and the moon is howling" - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rorschach Subject: Re: (hdproject) Utilities, access, etc. Date: 22 May 1999 22:26:57 -0700 >I think that buying one or two Differential Interruptors for the house will be less >expensive than buying one Ground Fault Circuit Interruptors. Moreover, I prefer to >see all the wiring protected. I don't want a kid to be electrocuted by putting a >screwdriver or something else in an outlet. Kids have a lot of imagination for such >things. For very small children there are plastic plugs that you can put into each outlet that does not have a regular plug in it. Once they are old enough to get the plastic plugs out they are also old enough to listen to warnings about electricity (or to survive being shocked if they ignore the warning). All IMO...... . . Rors (Rorschach) | \ / | |/ """ \? A simple pattern of Black and White? //,\ /,\\ Within you can find images, reflections, maybe balance. \ |_| / We walk a risky path: alone, yet not: whole, yet fractured. `=' "Sometimes the wolves are silent and the moon is howling" - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Digital Dragon Subject: RE: (hdproject) Lighting: conclusions Date: 23 May 1999 14:47:55 -0400 (EST) On Sat, May 22, 1999, at 10:09 PM, Rorschach wrote: >> At 08:28 PM 5/19/99 -0400, you wrote: >> > >> >Soooo, it seems we are in agreement on the following things here: >> > >> >The use of LEDs (indirect) for regualar lighting, and 'real' lights for >> >things like cooking, reading, building / repairwork, etc. >> >> I don;t know if the LED's will be enough for regular lighting (They may >> end up too expensive to get in that kind of quantity). Cost vs. lifespan is something to look into. >> I was thinking them more likely for night lighting type uses. So was I. Or any time when more lighting is not needed. Of course it also depends on just where we intend putting the lighting. Even now you can buy nightlights that just sit in a socket. Compact flourescent may be a good solution for >> reading/work lights if we can get types with an electronic ballast that do >> not have the 60hz flicker. Like the one I bought. It has 3 compact tubes and they don't flicker =Digi _ _ Digital Dragon, Clan Stormchaser //___// digidrag@discovernet.net ICQ: 21109302 Alfandria: Digi /____/ ( http://www.discovernet.net/~digidrag /^ ^/( "Dragons have the true spirit of life." - Digi / ---- /;/ "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit, the 2n /_____//// is to look things in the face and know them for what `v---v'// are." - Marcus Aurelius `===='~ DC.?(D,t) f++ s+ h-- Cg|b,t:b a+ $+ m d+++ WL++*/WL+^* Fr-- L z e+++ g i-- - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Digital Dragon Subject: RE: (hdproject) Utilities, access, etc. Date: 23 May 1999 15:33:18 -0400 (EST) On Sat, May 22, 1999, at 10:24 PM, Rorschach wrote: >> the rest of the house. If the tank short out the shortest path to ground >> is through the pipe that is right beside it and it will throw the breaker. >> (This is also only a risk if we use electricity to heat water, which I >> would like to see use get away from). >> Back in the day..... At boarding school they used fuel burning water heaters. The only prob with that is that you'll run out of hot water fairly fast :) They were using coal as a fuel, and that can be messy and bad for the health. >> >> One of the thigns that surprises me is taht there are apprently no >> >> universal federal laws over here in the US about lightning protection. >> In Florida, you have to have lightning rods attached to your house, but >> >> apparently in some states you don;t. I suspect we'll want one. ; ) >> > >> >It' a good idea. But we should also protect the phone lines, the TV >> (lightning rod like them very much) and the electrical wiring. The devices needed >> can be easily found. On an interesting side point here; as part of my studies I have found that the following offers protection against lightning: Birch, Elm, Cedar, Elder, Hawthorn, Hazel, Holly, Houseleek, Mahogany (mountain), Mistletoe, Mulberry, Oak, Olive, Pilot Weed, Rowan (mountain Ash), Thistle, Valerian, Vervain. Note that with each plant you are using different parts, and placing them in specific areas. With some its placing a twig on a windowsill, or hanging a twig above a doorway. One should be grown on the roof of the building. Still, having a rod as a backup wouldn't hurt. =Digi _ _ Digital Dragon, Clan Stormchaser //___// digidrag@discovernet.net ICQ: 21109302 Alfandria: Digi /____/ ( http://www.discovernet.net/~digidrag /^ ^/( "Dragons have the true spirit of life." - Digi / ---- /;/ "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit, the 2n /_____//// is to look things in the face and know them for what `v---v'// are." - Marcus Aurelius `===='~ DC.?(D,t) f++ s+ h-- Cg|b,t:b a+ $+ m d+++ WL++*/WL+^* Fr-- L z e+++ g i-- - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fenris Subject: Re: (hdproject) Utilities, access, etc. Date: 24 May 1999 22:53:43 +0200 Rorschach writes : > This is a distinct problem. I would REALLY like to be able to go the the > hardware store and use off the shelf parts to replace some part of the > electrical system that has died or to add on to it when doing new > construction. It is very frustrating having to order parts from far away > in order to do something and can be a hazard if the parts are unavailable > for a time and a solution has to be jury-rigged. > > US electricity is not hazardous enough (IMO) to go to extreme lengths in > money or effort to protect against it. 110 at 60 cycles is very rarely > fatal (and usually that is cause by being well grounded by some extremety > that forces the current across your heart). 220 and 440 (if we have any) > need very good protection because they can be pretty immediately fatal, but > these voltages are rare in residences (which will usually have a couple 220 > plugs that almost never get un-plugged). If we follow or exceed code using > commonly available equipment we should be able to get a reasonably safe > system without spending huge amounts of money. Here, I agree with you. We must make the difference between "the nice to have" and "the need to have". Actually, I haven't enough information to determine what do we need to have. I should take a plane, but it's still too expensive for me. Here, I can have electric devices for a very cheap price. I'll buy with my money what could be interesting for us. If it doesn't the right products, I'll sell them. It's not a problem for me. > The scenario that you laid out with a person being electricuted in the > shower by a hot water heater can be protected against by making sure that > there is a section of the hot ware piping that is metal and that is > grounded to earth located beside the hot water tank before it splits off to > the rest of the house. If the tank short out the shortest path to ground > is through the pipe that is right beside it and it will throw the breaker. > (This is also only a risk if we use electricity to heat water, which I > would like to see use get away from). *nods* > Grounding is required on phones, I think and often Cable TV lines will have > a true ground wired into them. The more that we have grounded the better. Don't forget the impedance. A good grounding is one thing, but if you forget to add an impedance on the line, the shock wave will reach the TV. These impedances work like a fuse. If the voltage increase quickly, it cut off the line. Fenris ICQ-25038511 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fenris Subject: (hdproject) more about interference (WAS: More forms of lighting) Date: 24 May 1999 22:53:58 +0200 Rorschach writes : > At 09:43 PM 5/18/99 +0200, you wrote: > >If we want to use a dual power system, we must verify several things : > > > >-We must put filters on DC motors (personally, I think that DC motors for > >freezer is not a good solution ) . They produce too many interference that > can > >damage all the electronics devices (computers, radio, Hi-Fi systems,...). > > What kind of interference? If it is magnetic that can be sheilded against > both by proximity and by a proper grounding setup. (A walk in freezer's > cooler is in the back of it, pretty far from any electronics). If it is AC > noise on the line that should be able to be filtered off with some decent > size capacitors. I am not going all out for DC motors, just saying that > they (including any problems) should be balanced against buying a large > enough inverter to run a lot of AC motors if we don't have line AC > available to us. > There are several kind of interference : - power surge - harmonic level - the voltage of two phases that are unstable - a low impedance of the line There are several solution to decrease interference. It depends of the level of the disruptions : - an inductor - a RC filter ( It contains several resistors and capacitors ) - an active equalizer (it creates an opposite harmonic current) A capacitor alone doesn't work like a filter, it decreases the phase difference between the current and the voltage. They put them on motors only to decrease the phase difference. It's very important for electrical companies. If you have to many motors at your home, the phase difference become so important that you consume more energy than the amount of electricity that is written on your electrical meter. Your electricity bill become less expensive. It's why you find capacitors banks in a lot of factories. Fenris ICQ-25038511 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Landon Solomon Subject: Re: (hdproject) Utilities, access, etc. Date: 24 May 1999 17:05:18 -0500 At 10:53 PM 5/24/99 +0200, you wrote: >Rorschach writes : > >> Grounding is required on phones, I think and often Cable TV lines will have >> a true ground wired into them. The more that we have grounded the better. > >Don't forget the impedance. A good grounding is one thing, but if you forget to >add an impedance on the line, the shock wave will reach the TV. These impedances >work like a fuse. If the voltage increase quickly, it cut off the line. Fenris, what you're saying here doesn't make sense. Are you trying to describe a device that will shunt current away in the event of a voltage spike or some type of breaker setup that works on voltage instead of current? Impedance is mearly another term for AC resistance... are you sure it's the term you're meaning to use? >Fenris >ICQ-25038511 Trot, the electrical, fox... /\_/\ TrotFox \ Always remember, ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon \ "There is a >\_/< trotfox5@airmail.net \ third alternative." - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fenris Subject: Re: (hdproject) Utilities, access, etc. Date: 25 May 1999 00:54:43 +0200 Landon Solomon writes : > At 10:53 PM 5/24/99 +0200, you wrote: > >Rorschach writes : > > > >> Grounding is required on phones, I think and often Cable TV lines will have > >> a true ground wired into them. The more that we have grounded the better. > > > >Don't forget the impedance. A good grounding is one thing, but if you > forget to > >add an impedance on the line, the shock wave will reach the TV. These > impedances > >work like a fuse. If the voltage increase quickly, it cut off the line. > > Fenris, what you're saying here doesn't make sense. Are you trying to > describe a device that will shunt current away in the event of a voltage > spike or some type of breaker setup that works on voltage instead of > current? Impedance is mearly another term for AC resistance... are you > sure it's the term you're meaning to use? > It's a device that shunt current away in the event of a voltage spike. If you open one of these devices, there is a resistance inside. You need to link the device to the ground. Thanks to have corrected me. Fenris ICQ-25038511 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Landon Solomon Subject: Re: (hdproject) Utilities, access, etc. Date: 25 May 1999 08:00:04 -0500 At 12:54 AM 5/25/99 +0200, you wrote: > >It's a device that shunt current away in the event of a voltage spike. If you open >one of these devices, there is a resistance inside. You need to link the device to >the ground. >Thanks to have corrected me. Ok, sounds like you're talking about a variac. Same thing they use in surge protectors? Basic equivelant of two high-current zener diodes placed back to back in a circuit. :) >Fenris >ICQ-25038511 Trot, the termy, fox... /\_/\ TrotFox \ Always remember, ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon \ "There is a >\_/< trotfox5@airmail.net \ third alternative." - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Osborne Subject: RE: (hdproject) Utilities, access, etc. Date: 25 May 1999 17:10:56 -0400 >On an interesting side point here; as part of my studies I have found that >the following offers protection against lightning: > >Birch, Elm, Cedar, Elder, Hawthorn, Hazel, Holly, Houseleek, Mahogany >(mountain), Mistletoe, Mulberry, Oak, Olive, Pilot Weed, Rowan (mountain >Ash), Thistle, Valerian, Vervain. I take it you mean folklore/magic suggests these. : ) We coudl hang them off the lightning rod! : ) Cover all bases. Coyote --- Why do I think U-Haul is Evil? Planning to rent a truck? Before you do, please read about my Nightmare in Moving at: http://www.coyotes.org/~consumer/index.phtml --- John "Coyote" Osborne 113 Highland Park Drive, Athens GA, 30605-3577 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Osborne Subject: Re: (hdproject) Utilities, access, etc. Date: 25 May 1999 17:02:21 -0400 >>I send you a bottle of Champagne if you can find one these products in a >>hardware store. ; ) > >This is a distinct problem. I would REALLY like to be able to go the the >hardware store and use off the shelf parts to replace some part of the >electrical system that has died or to add on to it when doing new >construction. There's also the matter of expense. I'd like to find the safest way to do things with what we have available. >US electricity is not hazardous enough (IMO) to go to extreme lengths in >money or effort to protect against it. 110 at 60 cycles is very rarely >fatal (and usually that is cause by being well grounded by some extremety >that forces the current across your heart). 220 and 440 (if we have any) Well... I dunno abotu anyoen else... but I;ve had that current go into my body countless times and I'm no more abnormal than I was already. Of course, I'm also been hit by lightning. Hmmm.... maybe I'm not a good example. Seriously... unless you pour water into wiring outlets, or use poor quality wire that can heat up and melt itself or it's insulation it seems like it's nto that big a deal. Or else the people in this country would be barbecuing themselves with electricity right and left. Seems like when someone is electrocuted, it's usually because they were doing something really stupid, like fixing a fusebox with a penny. >(This is also only a risk if we use electricity to heat water, which I >would like to see use get away from). Indeed. Electricity is a really inefficient way to get heat. Coyote --- Why do I think U-Haul is Evil? Planning to rent a truck? Before you do, please read about my Nightmare in Moving at: http://www.coyotes.org/~consumer/index.phtml --- John "Coyote" Osborne 113 Highland Park Drive, Athens GA, 30605-3577 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Osborne Subject: Re: (hdproject) Utilities, access, etc. Date: 25 May 1999 17:08:49 -0400 Rors Wrote: >For very small children there are plastic plugs that you can put into each >outlet that does not have a regular plug in it. Once they are old enough >to get the plastic plugs out they are also old enough to listen to warnings >about electricity (or to survive being shocked if they ignore the warning). > All IMO...... I suppose I'd seem really callous if I said something along the lines of "and by that age, if they get shocked by puttign a fork in a light socket, they are evolutionarily challenged"? When I was two, my dad's father told me to put my finger in the wall socket to pet the alligator. I asked what an alligator was, and he said "an animal that lives in the wall... pet it". I listened to him, and got shocked for my troubles. I learned two things... wall sockets have dangerous electricity, and that you could not always trust grownups. For the record... I could pull out the plastic plugs long before I was clever enough to not stick my finger in the holes (though I never did until my bean brained granddad urged me to do so). If there are kids around, I suggest we get the more secure protectors that go around the whole outlet, and need to be opened to get plugs on and off. They are a pain... but then kids are SUPPOSED to be inconvenient! It helps you to pay attention to them. ; ) Coyote --- Why do I think U-Haul is Evil? Planning to rent a truck? Before you do, please read about my Nightmare in Moving at: http://www.coyotes.org/~consumer/index.phtml --- John "Coyote" Osborne 113 Highland Park Drive, Athens GA, 30605-3577 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Corwyn J. Alambar" Subject: (hdproject) Howl arrangements... Date: 25 May 1999 14:32:30 -0700 (PDT) Well, I'm planning on ocming up for the howl (the weekend of the 19th, I hope. :) and I'll onyl be able to make the weekend. If someone (preferably with a driver's license) wants to fly out via San Francisco and can afford to leave Friday afternoon and return Sunday night, I could use someone else in my car (technically I'm not supposed to drive in Oregon...). if not, that's fine, too, but I thought I'd offer. :) -Corey - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rorschach Subject: (hdproject) Oregon Howl II Date: 25 May 1999 22:36:57 -0700 I Here is the text of the Howl Recource Page: (As soon as I update it) http://coyotes.org/~werelist/howldisplay.phtml Oregon (Cougar Hot Springs) Howl II Date: June 19th, 1999 to June 27th, 1999 (The end date is tentative, the howl may last longer if there are still people left at the end or may end earlier if everyone leaves. The first weekend is the main part of the howl and should have the most people there at that time. The end date overlaps with what I have heard are the dates for the Colorado howl, but I hoping to be able to make a roadtrip to Colorado for that weekend and merge into that howl.....) Status: Definite Howl Location: Same location as two years ago. Howl will be held on the 600 acre farm that my mom, Howls at the Night and I live on about 5 minutes south of Eugene, Oregon. There is a good size field to camp in and a large barn if it rains. Please contact me for directions if you intend to come. Orion Rainy (541) 726 - 5612 orr@efn.org Notes I have done some work on the firepit, and will be doing more work on the site before the howl. Events: (tentative) Day trips to the coast and to Cougar Hot Springs Drumming and music (bring and instrument if you have one) Fire leaping A short tour of some of Eugene and the area Hike up to the top of Spencer's Butte (a very light hike) ------->>> Possibly the first official Heart's Dream meeting <<<------ Possible but who knows: If there are enough people interested and funds available we may be able to set up a road trip to the Colorado howl which I have heard is starting on the 25th of June. . . Rors (Rorschach) | \ / | |/ """ \? A simple pattern of Black and White? //,\ /,\\ Within you can find images, reflections, maybe balance. \ |_| / We walk a risky path: alone, yet not: whole, yet fractured. `=' "Sometimes the wolves are silent and the moon is howling" - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSale31114@aol.com Subject: Re: (hdproject) Utilities, access, etc. Date: 26 May 1999 12:46:10 EDT In a message dated 5/25/99 3:14:15 PM CST, coyote@coyotes.org writes: > When I was two, my dad's father told me to put my finger in the wall socket > to pet the alligator. I asked what an alligator was, and he said "an animal > that lives in the wall... pet it". I listened to him, and got shocked for > my troubles. I learned two things... wall sockets have dangerous > electricity, and that you could not always trust grownups. > > If there are kids around, I > suggest we get the more secure protectors that go around the whole outlet, > and need to be opened to get plugs on and off. They are a pain... but then > kids are SUPPOSED to be inconvenient! It helps you to pay attention > to them. ; ) Very good advice. And if the little ones just have to see the alligator in order to believe the warnings have them act as helpers to their godfather while he's messing around with the generators. I'm sure they'll love watching my fur stand on end and smoke come out my ears. Flenser - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Coyote Osborne Subject: Re: (hdproject) Utilities, access, etc. Date: 26 May 1999 21:05:53 -0400 Flenser Wrote: >Very good advice. And if the little ones just have to see the alligator in >order to believe the warnings have them act as helpers to their godfather >while he's messing around with the generators. I'm sure they'll love >watching my fur stand on end and smoke come out my ears. Are you sure you aren't a coyote? ; ) Coyote --- Why do I think U-Haul is Evil? Planning to rent a truck? Before you do, please read about my Nightmare in Moving at: http://www.coyotes.org/~consumer/index.phtml --- John "Coyote" Osborne 113 Highland Park Drive, Athens GA, 30605-3577 - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KatmanDu Subject: Re: (hdproject) Utilities, access, etc. Date: 30 May 1999 12:20:50 -0400 At 10:53 PM 5/24/99 +0200, you wrote: >Don't forget the impedance. A good grounding is one thing, but if you forget to >add an impedance on the line, the shock wave will reach the TV. These >impedances >work like a fuse. If the voltage increase quickly, it cut off the line. Lightning arrestors. Good ones can be expensive, but so is replacing fried equipment. :) Grounding things like cable splitters and telephone network interface boxes are mainly for noise suppression... a true ground-return path is expected from most electronics. Panamax makes a line of very good consumer-grade surge suppression equipment for audio-visual equipment; for protecting not only outlets but cable and telephone lines at the end of the run. Plus, they'll pay for equipment that is killed by lightning that gets past the suppressor. :) Most surge protectors guarantee a certain amount, but specifically exclude damage caused by lightning- which is why most folks buy a suppressor in the first place. Panamax covers lightning strikes as well. There are also larger, even more expensive surge protectors that can be placed on the line at the breaker box that are rated for lightning protection. katmandu1@home.com - members.home.net/katmandu1 - katmandu@arches.uga.edu "If the real Jesus Christ was to stand up today, He'd be gunned down cold by the CIA. Oh, the lights that burn brightest behind stained glass will cast the darkest shadows upon the human heart. But GOD didn't build *himself* that throne. GOD doesn't live in Israel or Rome. GOD doesn't belong to the yankee dollar. GOD doesn't plant the bombs for Hezbollah. GOD doesn't even go to church. And GOD won't send us down to Allah to burn. No, GOD will remind us what we already know- that the human race is about to reap what it's sown. The World is on its elbows and knees; it's forgotten the message and worships the creed." -The The, "Armageddon Days are Here Again" - To unsubscribe to hdproject, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hdproject" in the body of the message. For information on archives and retrieving files and old messages send "help" to the same address. Do not use quotes in your messages.