From: Dean Rudy Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Way OFF TOPIC Date: 30 Apr 1999 22:56:07 -0600 I agree with Mr. Mullen. Please let's keep the discussion focused around the historical aspects of the Rocky Mt. fur trade, ca. first half 19th century. There are other mailing lists (and very active ones at that) that specialize in jokes, religion, politics, gun control, animal rights, modern gun technology, club politics, etc, etc. If we try to cover all these topics in one discussion group, it could get very busy, indeed, at least until people start dropping out. We are a very diverse group, united only by a common interest in the history of the mountain men. I prefer to avoid hard-and-fast rules, but a periodic reminder of our main focus is appropriate. YrMstHblObtSvt, Dean Rudy list administrator At 04:12 PM 4/30/99 -0600, you wrote: >Sirs, > >As I child I was told that there is a proper forum in which to discuss >both politics and religion. This is not the appropriate place for either >of those discussions. I would suggest that if you would like to discuss >either subject to do so in private (via email directed at individuals) >and not on this list which Mr. Rudy has graciosly set up to discuss the >FUR TRADE. If you would feel it is appropriate to discuss religious >topics in this forum please have the common courtesy to indicate OFF >TOPIC in the subject matter so that the rest of the list may disregard >your personal discussions. > >YMHOS, >David Mullen > > > >Frank wrote: >> >> Mick, >> >> I won't go in to specific beliefs here, we've drifted enough but even >> the religions I definitely don't agree with all teach a basic respect >> for man and accountability! But just for the record and to open the >> biggest can of worms of all...our country was founded as a Christian >> bible believing country! That IS historical fact! The schools don't >> want to teach that either. If we were to return to the great >> principals that began this country we would begin to undo the damage >> we've done. I didn't mean to imply schools should teach religion, but >> there's nothing wrong with teaching respect for one another. >> Accountability for your actions and reward for good works. Doing unto >> others as you would have them do unto you. Caring for one another and >> doing without because you esteem others as more important than >> yourself. You don't have to put an name on that but if you must, it's >> called Christianity! But that's the problem, when you teach those >> principals it's obvious that they are Christian teachings. They were >> good enough for the men and women who built this great country and >> opened the westward expansion, it'll do for me too! History is >> proving we were better with those beliefs than without them. I'll >> stand with the evidence. >> Thanks for your two cents, I respect your right to choose your own >> beliefs. >> >> I apologize to the list for this departure, I'll endeavor to refrain >> in the future. >> >> Frank (MB) <(((>< >> >> The Sweeneys wrote: >> >> Well heres my 2 cents... God in schools is great if all the >> kids are on the the same page, but not everybody believes in >> the same way . For instance I call God, Great Spirit and >> believe the trees , earth, and animals our my >> relatives....So what religion would schools teach is the >> question...... and I aint no liberal hippy either. >> >> Respectfully, >> Mick >> Sierra Foothills >> >> Frank wrote: >> >> Lanney, >> >> When you were in school, God was too! They hadn't >> kicked Him out yet because He wasn't "politically >> correct"! >> When I was a boy in school I learned the pledge of >> allegiance, prayer and the 10 commandments. A day >> didn't go by that someone wasn't lecturing me >> about morality. (mostly because I was a little >> hellion) And look at me now! A big strappin' >> mountain man! Wagh! >> All kidding aside, God's word sums it up best >> where it says: >> >> "If my people, who are called by My name, will >> humble themselves and pray, I will hear from >> heaven and heal their land." >> >> Our only hope has always been and will always be >> only in Him! >> >> Medicine Bear <(((>< >> >> Ratcliff wrote: >> >> Want to hear something truly sad? A >> friend in Georgia ,who is an elementary >> school librarian, tells me that special >> security precautions are being taken >> today, including policemen at the >> school, because today is the anniversary >> of the suicide of Adolph Hitler. At an >> ELEMENTARY SCHOOL!! How is it that >> schools are becomming as tense as >> prisons? When I was in school about the >> only way you could get hurt there was >> tripping down some stairs, maybe getting >> into a fistfight...and, oh yeah, Mr. >> Jerome Cribbs' paddle from hell. And >> all I had to worry about besides that >> was homework, girls and Russian hydrogen >> bombs.What a world we live in.Lanney >> Ratcliff > >-- >David & Evelyn Mullen >202 Mesa Verde >Jemez Springs, NM 87025 >(505) 829-3212 >email: dmullen@jemez.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: Non-Electric catalog for history buffs Date: 02 May 1999 10:51:05 -0700 Brothers & Sisters, For an interesting web site see http://www.Lehmans.com These are the Amish folks, the ones that have done without modern suppliers of electric, phone and water departments while the rest of the world got on the programs. Now many are going to them to relearn the old ways of survival without the modern ways. I was talking to Doyle Yoder from this firm, Lehman's, just an hour from Double Edge Forge (Dennis Miles - that is on this list), Doyle tells me they're running 5-7 weeks behind do to the Y2K thing. Apparently some folks are starting to get prepared just in case there are shortages, thus making the "common people" work longer hours to supply the demand. The reason I even mention this firm is for the reenacter, historical buff or trekker looking for special needs in the way of home food preparation, home and farm tools, horse equipment like carts to wagons and much more, many items that have been used since these people came to the New World in the mid to late 1700's. Their catalog is available (150 plus pages) good pictures and descriptions of each item for $3.00. You can call 330-857-5757, fax 303-857-5785 or e-mail to Getleham's@aol.com For the trader or dealer I found just the ticket in a correct wood wheelbarrow based on an authentic pattern from the early 1800's according to the ad. I called and talked to a gentlemen that told me he was sure the wheelbarrow has been around for a long period of time in history, theirs has a spoked wooden wheel with removal side boards. He gave me the name and number of a museum that had several of this pattern wheelbarrow. I called and talked to a lady that was only able to read me the information on the display, but was going to have another person send me the documentation they had about the wheelbarrows. According to the display these were made before 1800, I will let you know what the documentation says when received. If correct, here's what will save your back and some trips back and forth when setting up camp, collecting firewood, water, etc., plus will make a nice way to display some of your goods with one side board removed and a period blanket drapped over the wheelbarrow. Hell I sold myself and ordered one, got the large one at $249.00 postage paid, have a smaller one at $159.00 postage paid. Get the catalog and give it some thought. Buck Conner dba/ Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Carpenter, Ken" Subject: MtMan-List: Jed Smith's 1826 (or 27?) camp at present day San Dimas, CA Date: 02 May 1999 18:12:58 -0700 Hello in camp: I live near San Dimas and want to go visit the site, even though there is probably a shopping mall there now. Does anyone remember the name of the springs at this site? He camp here after crossing the San Bernardinos, or so, I hear. Thanks, Carp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain College Rendezvous Date: 02 May 1999 19:36:10 -0700 Does anyone have the dates of the Rocky Mountain College Rendezvous ? Also a phone number or e-mail address of a contact person and the location. Thanks, Pendleton ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Non-Electric catalog for history buffs Date: 02 May 1999 16:22:32 -0400 Hey All.. Buck is right, although a little more than an hour away, Lemans is GREAT!!! They have great merchandise, are friendly and if you go in, be careful, you may overheat the Discover Card!! I didn't know they had a website, and I will try to keep Gwen from finding out as well... Later D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accouterments http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 -----Original Message----- bcunningham@gwe.net ; rick1@webcom.com ; DMang51024@aol.com >Brothers & Sisters, > >For an interesting web site see http://www.Lehmans.com > >These are the Amish folks, the ones that have done without modern suppliers of electric, phone and water departments while the rest of the world got on the programs. Now many are going to them to relearn the old ways of survival without the modern ways. I was talking to Doyle Yoder from this firm, Lehman's, just an hour from Double Edge Forge (Dennis Miles - that is on this list), Doyle tells me they're running 5-7 weeks behind do to the Y2K thing. > >Apparently some folks are starting to get prepared just in case there are shortages, thus making the "common people" work longer hours to supply the demand. > >The reason I even mention this firm is for the reenacter, historical buff or trekker looking for special needs in the way of home food preparation, home and farm tools, horse equipment like carts to wagons and much more, many items that have been used since these people came to the New World in the mid to late 1700's. > >Their catalog is available (150 plus pages) good pictures and descriptions of each item for $3.00. You can call 330-857-5757, fax 303-857-5785 or e-mail to Getleham's@aol.com > >For the trader or dealer I found just the ticket in a correct wood wheelbarrow based on an authentic pattern from the early 1800's according to the ad. I called and talked to a gentlemen that told me he was sure the wheelbarrow has been around for a long period of time in history, theirs has a spoked wooden wheel with removal side boards. He gave me the name and number of a museum that had several of this pattern wheelbarrow. I called and talked to a lady that was only able to read me the information on the display, but was going to have another person send me the documentation they had about the wheelbarrows. According to the display these were made before 1800, I will let you know what the documentation says when received. > >If correct, here's what will save your back and some trips back and forth when setting up camp, collecting firewood, water, etc., plus will make a nice way to display some of your goods with one side board removed and a period blanket drapped over the wheelbarrow. Hell I sold myself and ordered one, got the large one at $249.00 postage paid, have a smaller one at $159.00 postage paid. Get the catalog and give it some thought. > >Buck Conner >dba/ Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. >http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ > > >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "McKee" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Non-Electric catalog for history buffs - a little off topic Date: 02 May 1999 13:28:49 -0500 Got their catalog a while back .... some things may be authentic but at Lehmans that is at a cost. Many items are overpriced. the catalog is definitely worth a look though......Doesn't it strike you as a bit odd that the Amish have a web sight?? What Next, an Amish telephone directory?? :-] Have a great day! Long John -----Original Message----- bcunningham@gwe.net ; rick1@webcom.com ; DMang51024@aol.com >Brothers & Sisters, > >For an interesting web site see http://www.Lehmans.com > >These are the Amish folks, the ones that have done without modern suppliers of electric, phone and water departments while the rest of the world got on the programs. Now many are going to them to relearn the old ways of survival without the modern ways. I was talking to Doyle Yoder from this firm, Lehman's, just an hour from Double Edge Forge (Dennis Miles - that is on this list), Doyle tells me they're running 5-7 weeks behind do to the Y2K thing. > >Apparently some folks are starting to get prepared just in case there are shortages, thus making the "common people" work longer hours to supply the demand. > >The reason I even mention this firm is for the reenacter, historical buff or trekker looking for special needs in the way of home food preparation, home and farm tools, horse equipment like carts to wagons and much more, many items that have been used since these people came to the New World in the mid to late 1700's. > >Their catalog is available (150 plus pages) good pictures and descriptions of each item for $3.00. You can call 330-857-5757, fax 303-857-5785 or e-mail to Getleham's@aol.com > >For the trader or dealer I found just the ticket in a correct wood wheelbarrow based on an authentic pattern from the early 1800's according to the ad. I called and talked to a gentlemen that told me he was sure the wheelbarrow has been around for a long period of time in history, theirs has a spoked wooden wheel with removal side boards. He gave me the name and number of a museum that had several of this pattern wheelbarrow. I called and talked to a lady that was only able to read me the information on the display, but was going to have another person send me the documentation they had about the wheelbarrows. According to the display these were made before 1800, I will let you know what the documentation says when received. > >If correct, here's what will save your back and some trips back and forth when setting up camp, collecting firewood, water, etc., plus will make a nice way to display some of your goods with one side board removed and a period blanket drapped over the wheelbarrow. Hell I sold myself and ordered one, got the large one at $249.00 postage paid, have a smaller one at $159.00 postage paid. Get the catalog and give it some thought. > >Buck Conner >dba/ Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. >http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ > > >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain College Rendezvous Date: 02 May 1999 21:53:34 EDT Pendleton, et al, Per Smoke & Fire News: Rocky Mountain College Rendezvous, Pike National Forest, Lost Park, Jefferson CO (CO Highway 285) AUGUST 8-15 Contact John Switzer (who makes fine knives, grease lamps 'n stuff by the way) 6774 Blue Jay Drive, Parker, CO 80138 phone (303) 841-4432 Hope this helps, YHS Barney Fife ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain College Rendezvous Date: 02 May 1999 21:42:52 -0700 Thanks Barney ! That's good info. I have admired John's work for many years. I'll get in touch with him for more information. Pendleton -----Original Message----- >Pendleton, et al, Per Smoke & Fire News: >Rocky Mountain College Rendezvous, Pike National Forest, Lost Park, Jefferson >CO (CO Highway 285) AUGUST 8-15 Contact John Switzer (who makes fine >knives, grease lamps 'n stuff by the way) 6774 Blue Jay Drive, Parker, CO >80138 phone (303) 841-4432 Hope this helps, YHS Barney Fife > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: RE: Air rifle Date: 02 May 1999 20:16:12 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format... ------------=_925701372-2904-0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Earlier this year we talked about airguns in answering a question by a member of this list, since then I have went to the library, plus made a few phone calls and will now share with you my findings on this subject. Seems this weapon is earlier than any of us had suggested. The use of compressed air to propel a projectile is an old concept dating back to 250 BC, when a gentleman by the name of Ktesbias II of Egypt drew plans and wrote of a weapon that would operate on mere air pressure. Vague references to Ancient Greeks using a source of compressed air to throw rocks at their enemies or in the Renaissance Period - inventor Leonardo DaVinci having drawn plans for air powered weapons. Some historians have claimed that Guter of Nuremberg in 1430 designed a working model of an air rifle, (but never had it profectived). While others claim that Hans Lobsigner in 1560 produced a modified version of the Nuremberg hand held rifle that worked flawlessly and produced numbers of them in the late 1500’s. France, Holland, Italy and several other small countries were producing airguns by the early 1600’s and supplying arms for personal protection. The oldest existing airgun known is in the Royal Danish Arsenal in Copenhagen and dates from around 1580. Otto Von Guerick (1602-1686) established the principle of the vacuum with the Madgeburg spheres, designed and building an air rifle using this surge principle. His devise according to an article written by J.T.Haynes was actually a cannon arrangement that used a detachable air reservoir connected to the cannon tube. These wind chambers as they were called generated considerable force, capable of propelling a four pound lead ball 500 yards, and able to penetrate a three inch thick oak board. The airgun history actually began in the late 16th and early 17th centuries, these odd arms then equaled the power of the contemporary big-game and waterfowl weapon or military firearm. Many thought that the Lewis and Clark air rifle was an unusual item, when the real truth of the matter is this type of weapon had been around for 400 years before the exploration of the Northwest in 1804. Airguns were considered weapons of war, an early version would be the blow gun powered by one’s own breath, and many disagree on when this early weapon came into being. In Europe many leaders would have anyone using a crossbow or airgun put to death, they didn’t like the idea of a weapon being silent, in war or peace time. The first largest produced airgun was of the bellows chamber design, so named as implies, a spring loaded bellows was used for power with an expanding ratchet device housed in the butt stock that was cranked or keyed to rewind the spring. All bellows type guns were smooth bores according to James W. Harrom (Beeman Precision) and many shot tufted large diameter darts up to 50 caliber. They were all breech loading in design with the convential barrel opening at the breech and tilting downward for loading. Most of the bellows guns were of the long gun configuration, very few produced as pistols, most were very elaborate in design, hardware and finishes. The bellow gun production was short lived in the 1500’s and mainly used as a target weapon, but resumed popularity in the mid to late 1700’s, 200 years later that has puzzled historians world wide. According to Mr. Harrom most bellows guns date from 1740 to 1790 and seem to come from a small area bounded by Munich, Prague and Vienna. the bellows airgun had disappeared by the late 1800’s, yet a few appear to have been made as late as the 1870’s. Another design that appeared on the scene around 1600 was the spring piston gun, with several variations of springs used in their operation. From the zigzag shape to the helical coil spring (much like what is used today in modern spring piston airguns), again a ratchet device is used to pump or crank the spring into a compressed position when loaded, then released by a trigger sear or unlatching mechanism. By the first part of the 19th century the spring piston gun had established it’s elf through out Europe as an indoor target weapon. By the mid 1800’s this airgun had found it’s way to the New World in the indoor shooting galleries becoming very popular as a great past-time sport. Usually found in .25 to .30 caliber, smooth bores intended to shoot darts. As time and weapons improved they were placed into a number of classes for competition, from small caliber - smooth bore to the larger caliber - rifled and so on. There were manufactures of weapons with names we all remember like Quackenbush, Daisy, Atlas, Markham/King and many others, some have survived, others are history. The pump pneumatic gun has been worked on by inventors since the early 1600’s, with a number of mechanism designs that were so involved that the system developed slowly when compared to the other systems mentioned. The size ranged from .30 to .68 caliber bores - smooth and rifled, meaning that a large volume of compressed air was needed in a large reservoir to produce pressures from a few hundred pounds per square inch to several thousand pounds per square inch. Not only deadly at the muzzle but also at the reservoir area. This much pressure would fire a .40 caliber lead ball, 40 times without resupplying the reservoir and equal a 35 grains of FFG black powder per shot, able to penetrate 2 1/2" into a hardpine board. This was duplicated a few years ago with one of these early air rifles and found to produce each shot with 750 PSI, that’s impressive, no wonder the L&C members wanted to have one of these along to show the Natives their "Spirit Gun". There are a number of other manufacturers from other parts of the world that have had success with the airgun, for example an Austrian firm using a design by Bartolemeno Girandoni in 1779 made weapons that ranged from .40 to .52 caliber in bore and capable of firing 15 to 20 rounds within a minute by a gravity feed magazine. "When you figure that a group of armed men, 500 in number could fire approximately 100,000 rounds per hour, meaning they would have 5 times the firepower of many troops with flintlocks muskets, at 100 yards this is amazing," says author J.T.Haynes. Now you can see why the airgun was condemned by Napoleon and other leaders being targeted by the Austrian Army in the late 1700’s, even the Church of Rome condemned the Austrian rifle. "Poachers, assassins and other undesirables were portrayed", Mr. Haynes says, "as the likely users of these weapons, tools of the Devil." For power of these guns, Louis VII Landgrave of Hesse (1691-1768) used a big bore air rifle to kill 500 lb. stag elk at ranges of 150 to 160 paces in 1746-1748. On our continent the journals of Lewis and Clark expedition (1804-1806) show their big bore pneumatic rifle, made in Philadelphia by Jacob Kunz and Issaih Lukens, capable of 40 full power shots at 900 PSI with a 1,000 pump strokes for raised pressure. This .31 caliber rifle had a 34" octagon barrel of brass with 17 groove rifling and needed no patching as the ball to barrel rifling was so close with the shallow rifling, making a snug fit. They used it to show the Indians of their power in taking small game up to deer in size, this had to astonish the onlookers. As late as the 1890’s we have seen in this country pneumatic weapons disguised as walking sticks and canes ranging from .40-.50 in caliber with 500-750 FPS velocities capable of killing a man at 40-50 yards. This information came from many resources: J.T.Haynes, "Airguns Throughout History", C.D.Hamilton, "Silent Killers", James W. Harrom, "History of Air Rifles", Permission from "Beeman Precision Airgun Guide". Hope this answers any questions on how old airguns are, had heard much of this information years ago, but had forgotten it. Thanks Buck Conner Colorado Territory Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------=_925701372-2904-0 Content-Type: text/plain; name="925701028.745208" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="925701028.745208" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Earlier this year we talked about airguns in answering a question by a member of this list, since then I have went to the library, plus made a few phone calls and will now share with you my findings on this subject. Seems this weapon is earlier than any of us had suggested.

The use of compressed air to propel a projectile is an old concept dating back to 250 BC, when a gentleman by the name of Ktesbias II of Egypt drew plans and wrote of a weapon that would operate on mere air pressure. Vague references to Ancient Greeks using a source of compressed air to throw rocks at their enemies or in the Renaissance Period - inventor Leonardo DaVinci having drawn plans for air powered weapons. Some historians have claimed that Guter of Nuremberg in 1430 designed a working model of an air rifle, (but never had it profectived). While others claim that Hans Lobsigner in 1560 produced a modified version of the Nuremberg hand held rifle that worked flawlessly and produced numbers of them in the late 1500’s. France, Holland, Italy and several other small countries were producing airguns by the early 1600’s and supplying arms for personal protection.

The oldest existing airgun known is in the Royal Danish Arsenal in Copenhagen and dates from around 1580.

Otto Von Guerick (1602-1686) established the principle of the vacuum with the Madgeburg spheres, designed and building an air rifle using this surge principle. His devise according to an article written by J.T.Haynes was actually a cannon arrangement that used a detachable air reservoir connected to the cannon tube. These wind chambers as they were called generated considerable force, capable of propelling a four pound lead ball 500 yards, and able to penetrate a three inch thick oak board.

The airgun history actually began in the late 16th and early 17th centuries, these odd arms then equaled the power of the contemporary big-game and waterfowl weapon or military firearm. Many thought that the Lewis and Clark air rifle was an unusual item, when the real truth of the matter is this type of weapon had been around for 400 years before the exploration of the Northwest in 1804. Airguns were considered weapons of war, an early version would be the blow gun powered by one’s own breath, and many disagree on when this early weapon came into being. In Europe many leaders would have anyone using a crossbow or airgun put to death, they didn’t like the idea of a weapon being silent, in war or peace time.

The first largest produced airgun was of the bellows chamber design, so named as implies, a spring loaded bellows was used for power with an expanding ratchet device housed in the butt stock that was cranked or keyed to rewind the spring. All bellows type guns were smooth bores according to James W. Harrom (Beeman Precision) and many shot tufted large diameter darts up to 50 caliber. They were all breech loading in design with the convential barrel opening at the breech and tilting downward for loading. Most of the bellows guns were of the long gun configuration, very few produced as pistols, most were very elaborate in design, hardware and finishes. The bellow gun production was short lived in the 1500’s and mainly used as a target weapon, but resumed popularity in the mid to late 1700’s, 200 years later that has puzzled historians world wide. According to Mr. Harrom most bellows guns date from 1740 to 1790 and seem to come from a small area bounded by Munich, Prague and Vienna. the bellows airgun had disappeared by the late 1800’s, yet a few appear to have been made as late as the 1870’s.

Another design that appeared on the scene around 1600 was the spring piston gun, with several variations of springs used in their operation. From the zigzag shape to the helical coil spring (much like what is used today in modern spring piston airguns), again a ratchet device is used to pump or crank the spring into a compressed position when loaded, then released by a trigger sear or unlatching mechanism. By the first part of the 19th century the spring piston gun had established it’s elf through out Europe as an indoor target weapon. By the mid 1800’s this airgun had found it’s way to the New World in the indoor shooting galleries becoming very popular as a great past-time sport. Usually found in .25 to .30 caliber, smooth bores intended to shoot darts. As time and weapons improved they were placed into a number of classes for competition, from small caliber - smooth bore to the larger caliber - rifled and so on. There were manufactures of weapons with names we all remember like Quackenbush, Daisy, Atlas, Markham/King and many others, some have survived, others are history.

The pump pneumatic gun has been worked on by inventors since the early 1600’s, with a number of mechanism designs that were so involved that the system developed slowly when compared to the other systems mentioned. The size ranged from .30 to .68 caliber bores - smooth and rifled, meaning that a large volume of compressed air was needed in a large reservoir to produce pressures from a few hundred pounds per square inch to several thousand pounds per square inch. Not only deadly at the muzzle but also at the reservoir area. This much pressure would fire a .40 caliber lead ball, 40 times without resupplying the reservoir and equal a 35 grains of FFG black powder per shot, able to penetrate 2 1/2" into a hardpine board. This was duplicated a few years ago with one of these early air rifles and found to produce each shot with 750 PSI, that’s impressive, no wonder the L&C members wanted to have one of these along to show the Natives their "Spirit Gun".

There are a number of other manufacturers from other parts of the world that have had success with the airgun, for example an Austrian firm using a design by Bartolemeno Girandoni in 1779 made weapons that ranged from .40 to .52 caliber in bore and capable of firing 15 to 20 rounds within a minute by a gravity feed magazine. "When you figure that a group of armed men, 500 in number could fire approximately 100,000 rounds per hour, meaning they would have 5 times the firepower of many troops with flintlocks muskets, at 100 yards this is amazing," says author J.T.Haynes.

Now you can see why the airgun was condemned by Napoleon and other leaders being targeted by the Austrian Army in the late 1700’s, even the Church of Rome condemned the Austrian rifle. "Poachers, assassins and other undesirables were portrayed", Mr. Haynes says, "as the likely users of these weapons, tools of the Devil."

For power of these guns, Louis VII Landgrave of Hesse (1691-1768) used a big bore air rifle to kill 500 lb. stag elk at ranges of 150 to 160 paces in 1746-1748. On our continent the journals of Lewis and Clark expedition (1804-1806) show their big bore pneumatic rifle, made in Philadelphia by Jacob Kunz and Issaih Lukens, capable of 40 full power shots at 900 PSI with a 1,000 pump strokes for raised pressure. This .31 caliber rifle had a 34" octagon barrel of brass with 17 groove rifling and needed no patching as the ball to barrel rifling was so close with the shallow rifling, making a snug fit. They used it to show the Indians of their power in taking small game up to deer in size, this had to astonish the onlookers. As late as the 1890’s we have seen in this country pneumatic weapons disguised as walking sticks and canes ranging from .40-.50 in caliber with 500-750 FPS velocities capable of killing a man at 40-50 yards.

This information came from many resources:

J.T.Haynes, "Airguns Throughout History",

C.D.Hamilton, "Silent Killers",

James W. Harrom, "History of Air Rifles",

Permission from "Beeman Precision Airgun Guide".

------------=_925701372-2904-0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Non-Electric catalog for history buffs - a little Date: 02 May 1999 20:22:31 -0700 Hey John, Back in the early 1960's I wired up fans inside stove pipes that ran up the shafts of the wind mills of their "Plain & Fancy" eating places outside of Lancaster and York PA. The idea was to blow the smell of fresh baked pies all over the valley, making people hungry and coming to spend their money. Buck > the Amish have a web sight?? What Next, an Amish telephone directory?? :-] > Have a great day! Long John Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Non-Electric catalog for history buffs - a littleoff Date: 02 May 1999 23:26:09 -0400 buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > > Hey John, > > Back in the early 1960's I wired up fans inside stove pipes that ran up the shafts of the wind mills of their "Plain & Fancy" eating places outside of Lancaster and York PA. The idea was to blow the smell of fresh baked pies all over the valley, making people hungry and coming to spend their money. Did it work? Fred -- "Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some! http://www.cap-n-ball.com/thunder/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jed Smith's 1826 (or 27?) camp at present day San Date: 03 May 1999 01:27:45 EDT Ken, Jedediah Smith camped near Mud Springs on Nov. 26, 1826. Are you familiar with the statue of Smith on the grounds of City Hall, corner of Bonita and Walnut Aves. in San Dimas? It has a plaque that bears the date and a short description of Smith. This info comes from "Jedediah Smith and His Monuments," by Raymund F. Wood, page 27. An updated versin of this book was just published by the Jedediah Smith Society. Jim Hardee, AMM# 1676 P.O. Box 1228 Quincy, CA 95971 (530)283-4566 (H) (530)283-3330 (W) (530)283-5171 FAX Casapy123@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Non-Electric catalog for history buffs - a littleoff Date: 03 May 1999 05:40:49 -0700 You bet it worked, we were young and dumb and had traded the labor for meals, should have went on a percentage of additional business. Buck ____________ On Sun, 02 May 1999, "Fred A. Miller" wrote: > > buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > > > > Hey John, > > > > Back in the early 1960's I wired up fans inside stove pipes that ran up the shafts of the wind mills of their "Plain & Fancy" eating places outside of Lancaster and York PA. The idea was to blow the smell of fresh baked pies all over the valley, making people hungry and coming to spend their money. > > Did it work? > > Fred > "Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Laura Rugel Glise Subject: MtMan-List: Sons of Merriwether Lewis Date: 03 May 1999 07:59:35 +0000 Can anyone on the list save me some research? Mary Walker, wife of Elkanah Walker (missionary), writes in her diary that she met the sons of Merriwether Lewis in 1838. Anyone know their names? Appreciate the help. Laura R. Glise Atlanta, Georgia ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Pierce Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Air rifle Date: 03 May 1999 10:00:31 -0400 buck a lot of good documentation and history in your research---havent had time to do much on the subject--quite interesting the caliber of some of the guns---have you seen any good detail pictures of any of them---or have you looked in the patent drawings on the web yet--they might have something---at this point in time too much work and too little time---it would be interesting to see the airgun that would drop a deer or the like size animal---still trying to figure the volume of air required and the pressures that we would be getting on such a piece to get that velosity up to 750 to 1000 fps. some of the good mathamations on the list might be able to give us that info---you have truly documented the complete prospective of the air gun----wonder if they patched their balls the same as a muzzle loader---and loaded from the front---keeping the velocity below the speed of sound will reduct the noise level of the gun---no crack---hense the reason for calling them the silent guns--- again---good research bud---will store for future reference--- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Mullen Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sons of Merriwether Lewis Date: 03 May 1999 10:38:31 -0600 Ms. Glise, Meriwiwether Lewis died a bachelor - which I realize does not preclude have children - and left no apparent offspring. None are mentioned in either _Undaunted Courage: Meriwether Lewis, Thomas Jefferson, and the Opening of the American West_ by Stephen E. Ambrose or in _Meriwether Lewis of Lewis and Clark_ by Charles M. Wilson. On the bright side Mary Walker does mention meeting two sons of William Clark. The two sons were Meriwether Lewis Clark and Jefferson K. Clark according to Elliot Coues in _The History of teh Lewis and Clark Expedition_. Hope this of some help. YMHOS, David Mullen -- David & Evelyn Mullen 202 Mesa Verde Jemez Springs, NM 87025 (505) 829-3212 email: dmullen@jemez.com Laura Rugel Glise wrote: > > Can anyone on the list save me some research? > > Mary Walker, wife of Elkanah Walker (missionary), writes in her diary > that she met the sons of Merriwether Lewis in 1838. Anyone know their > names? > > Appreciate the help. > > Laura R. Glise > Atlanta, Georgia ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sons of Merriwether Lewis Date: 03 May 1999 09:52:41 -0700 What Mr. Mullen has stated is correct per his references and several source pages that I checked on. Mary Walker got the information turned around probably because of the closeness in names of Clark's sons - Meriwether Lewis Clark and Jefferson K. Clark, (she could have had them Jefferson's sons) !!! Buck Conner Colorado Territory > On Mon, 03 May 1999, David Mullen wrote: > > Ms. Glise, > > Meriwiwether Lewis died a bachelor - which I realize does not preclude > have children - and left no apparent offspring. None are mentioned in > either _Undaunted Courage: Meriwether Lewis, Thomas Jefferson, and the > Opening of the American West_ by Stephen E. Ambrose or in _Meriwether > Lewis of Lewis and Clark_ by Charles M. Wilson. On the bright side Mary > Walker does mention meeting two sons of William Clark. The two sons were > Meriwether Lewis Clark and Jefferson K. Clark according to Elliot Coues > in _The History of teh Lewis and Clark Expedition_. > > Hope this of some help. > > YMHOS, > David Mullen > > -- > David & Evelyn Mullen > 202 Mesa Verde > Jemez Springs, NM 87025 > (505) 829-3212 > email: dmullen@jemez.com > > Laura Rugel Glise wrote: > > > > Can anyone on the list save me some research? > > > > Mary Walker, wife of Elkanah Walker (missionary), writes in her diary > > that she met the sons of Merriwether Lewis in 1838. Anyone know their > > names? > > > > Appreciate the help. > > > > Laura R. Glise > > Atlanta, Georgia Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Henry B. Crawford" Subject: MtMan-List: Willie Lube?? Date: 03 May 1999 12:03:19 -0600 >"Slicker 'n Willie Lube" > OK, I'll finally ask. Can someone please explain. What the heck is "Willie Lube?" HBC **************************************** Henry B. Crawford Box 43191 Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because It's There ****** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Willie Lube?? Date: 03 May 1999 10:56:16 -0700 A patch lube, like Powder Hawk's Pride, Ox-Yoke, Dixie Special, etc. Turtle. > > On Mon, 03 May 1999, "Henry B. Crawford" wrote: > >"Slicker 'n Willie Lube" > > > > OK, I'll finally ask. Can someone please explain. What the heck is > "Willie Lube?" > > HBC > > **************************************** > Henry B. Crawford Box 43191 > Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University > mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 > 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 > Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum > ****** Living History . . . Because It's There ****** Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Charlie P. Webb" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain College Rendezvous Date: 03 May 1999 13:31:22 -0600 August 8th thru the 15th again in Lost Park. Booshway John Switzer, at Switz@iex.net Respectfully, C Webb On Sun, 2 May 1999 19:36:10 -0700 "larry pendleton" writes: >Does anyone have the dates of the Rocky Mountain College Rendezvous ? >Also >a phone number or e-mail address of a contact person and the >location. >Thanks, >Pendleton > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Charlie P. Webb" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain College Rendezvous Date: 03 May 1999 13:38:06 -0600 Hey guys, You got the wrong John Switzer, our booshway for 99 has a blacksmithing business, but is not the knife maker you are thinking of. Respectfully, C Webb On Sun, 2 May 1999 21:42:52 -0700 "larry pendleton" writes: >Thanks Barney ! That's good info. I have admired John's work for >many >years. I'll get in touch with him for more information. >Pendleton >-----Original Message----- >From: RR1LA@aol.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Sunday, May 02, 1999 7:00 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain College Rendezvous > > >>Pendleton, et al, Per Smoke & Fire News: >>Rocky Mountain College Rendezvous, Pike National Forest, Lost Park, >Jefferson >>CO (CO Highway 285) AUGUST 8-15 Contact John Switzer (who makes >fine >>knives, grease lamps 'n stuff by the way) 6774 Blue Jay Drive, >Parker, CO >>80138 phone (303) 841-4432 Hope this helps, YHS Barney Fife >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sons of Merriwether Lewis Date: 03 May 1999 12:44:47 -0700 I have found several other mistakes in Mary Walker's diary on dates that she has wrong and will have to look, there was also the location of an event that was incorrect. Turtle. > On Mon, 03 May 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > > What Mr. Mullen has stated is correct per his references and several source pages that I checked on. > > Mary Walker got the information turned around probably because of the closeness in names of Clark's sons - Meriwether Lewis Clark and Jefferson K. Clark, (she could have had them Jefferson's sons) !!! > > Buck Conner > Colorado Territory > > > On Mon, 03 May 1999, David Mullen wrote: > > > > Ms. Glise, > > > > Meriwiwether Lewis died a bachelor - which I realize does not preclude > > have children - and left no apparent offspring. None are mentioned in > > either _Undaunted Courage: Meriwether Lewis, Thomas Jefferson, and the > > Opening of the American West_ by Stephen E. Ambrose or in _Meriwether > > Lewis of Lewis and Clark_ by Charles M. Wilson. On the bright side Mary > > Walker does mention meeting two sons of William Clark. The two sons were > > Meriwether Lewis Clark and Jefferson K. Clark according to Elliot Coues > > in _The History of teh Lewis and Clark Expedition_. > > > > Hope this of some help. > > > > YMHOS, > > David Mullen > > > > -- > > David & Evelyn Mullen > > 202 Mesa Verde > > Jemez Springs, NM 87025 > > (505) 829-3212 > > email: dmullen@jemez.com > > > > Laura Rugel Glise wrote: > > > > > > Can anyone on the list save me some research? > > > > > > Mary Walker, wife of Elkanah Walker (missionary), writes in her diary > > > that she met the sons of Merriwether Lewis in 1838. Anyone know their > > > names? > > > > > > Appreciate the help. > > > > > > Laura R. Glise > > > Atlanta, Georgia > > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: PowderHawk's Pride Patch Lube Date: 03 May 1999 12:53:42 -0700 Turtle, You mentioned PowderHawk's Pride, that was some real good patch lube, as well as a cleaner, I saw him on this list a while back, don't know if he is still selling the lube or not since moving to Iowa. Maybe the Stickin' Scottsman knows, they live near each other and are both AMM ? Buck > On Mon, 03 May 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote: > A patch lube, like Powder Hawk's Pride, Ox-Yoke, Dixie Special, etc. > Turtle. > > > > On Mon, 03 May 1999, "Henry B. Crawford" wrote: > > >"Slicker 'n Willie Lube" > > > > > > > OK, I'll finally ask. Can someone please explain. What the heck is > > "Willie Lube?" > > > > HBC Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Laura Rugel Glise Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sons of Merriwether Lewis Date: 03 May 1999 15:10:37 +0000 My apology: I need the names of the sons of George Rogers Clark. Can anyone help me out? Laura Glise ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Laura Rugel Glise Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sons of Merriwether Lewis Date: 03 May 1999 15:12:31 +0000 Thanks for your help. I rely on this list for invaluable information and I am never disappointed. Laura Glise ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Henry B. Crawford" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Willie Lube Date: 03 May 1999 15:11:07 -0600 > >Date: 3 May 1999 10:56:16 -0700 >From: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Willie Lube?? > >A patch lube, like Powder Hawk's Pride, Ox-Yoke, Dixie Special, etc. >Turtle. > Ah, kinda like Spit Patch. I thought it was some kind of wierd joke. I don't usually use patch lube aside what's in my mouth, except in match shooting. That can really dry you out. I use lard, for both front stuffers and BP cartridges. Thanks, HBC **************************************** Henry B. Crawford Box 43191 Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because It's There ****** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "McKee" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: PowderHawk's Pride Patch Lube Date: 03 May 1999 17:51:43 -0500 Don't know the gentleman ( or anyone else AMM in Iowa) closest is Griz's boys in MO. If anyone besides me in Iowa...............speak up!! Long John CUSTOM MADE LEATHER GOODS, SPECIALIZING IN THE AMERICAN FUR TRADE ERA -----Original Message----- >Turtle, >You mentioned PowderHawk's Pride, that was some real good patch lube, as well as a cleaner, I saw him on this list a while back, don't know if he is still selling the lube or not since moving to Iowa. Maybe the Stickin' Scottsman knows, they live near each other and are both AMM ? >Buck > >> On Mon, 03 May 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote: >> A patch lube, like Powder Hawk's Pride, Ox-Yoke, Dixie Special, etc. >> Turtle. >> >> > > On Mon, 03 May 1999, "Henry B. Crawford" wrote: >> > >"Slicker 'n Willie Lube" >> > > >> > >> > OK, I'll finally ask. Can someone please explain. What the heck is >> > "Willie Lube?" >> > >> > HBC > > >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wren Phillips" Subject: MtMan-List: remove from list Date: 03 May 1999 23:30:03 GMT PLease remove my email address from the list...thanks! *S* _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Rock Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #292 Date: 03 May 1999 16:49:28 -0500 Buck, The wheelbarrow as we know it is Roman. Refered to and illustrated is De Re Metallica by Agricola, translated by Herbert Hoover (yes, that Herbert Hoover! He was an engineer before he was President) Blocks and tackle, rope, chains, axes, saws, and the rest. The carpenter tools and wheelbarrows of the time of Christ are quite recognizable and usable yet today. There is another book on middle ages workmen, and the title escapes me. It illustrates all the trades, and the tools and technigues. Rock ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kurt Westenbarger" Subject: MtMan-List: Nez Perce 1877 Date: 03 May 1999 17:58:58 -0700 > Hi folks, I'm looking for details - preferably maps - of two 'skirmishes' of the Nez Perce flight of 1877. The Cama Meadows (Idaho) and Canyon Creek (MT) fights. The sight of the canyon creek fight is physically marked by a stone that is woefully inadequate in describing anything about that event. I'd like to know more. I've found no maps of those sites in my personal library so ... any ideas. Thanks Kurt ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: John Switzer Date: 03 May 1999 19:56:55 EDT ok, so forget the knives but if'n its the guy i'm thinkin' of, (JS Forge) check out his grease lamps. thanks for settin' me straight charlie. Barney Fife "Fortitude In Distress" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Jackson" Subject: MtMan-List: Thanks Date: 03 May 1999 18:54:09 PDT Want to thank all for their help and info. Went to Rondyvoo this past weekend. Started all my fires with flint and steel and char, shot my trade gun and slept on the ground, read all this good references on this list. Thanks for all your help. MadJack _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Willie Lube?? Date: 03 May 1999 23:54:37 -0400 "Henry B. Crawford" wrote: > > >"Slicker 'n Willie Lube" > > > > OK, I'll finally ask. Can someone please explain. What the heck is > "Willie Lube?" It's an all-natural lube that Mark DeWilde and I developed over a 2-yr. period. It's available through the site listed below. We make a patch lube and a bullet lube. Fred -- "Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some! http://www.cap-n-ball.com/thunder/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ron Chamberlain" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nez Perce 1877 Date: 04 May 1999 00:20:38 -0600 Check out this link, some info here, but not alot. http://idptv.state.id.us/archives/sacred/sacred.html Good Luck YMOS Lonewolf -----Original Message----- >> Hi folks, > >I'm looking for details - preferably maps - of two 'skirmishes' of the >Nez Perce flight of 1877. The Cama Meadows (Idaho) and Canyon Creek >(MT) fights. The sight of the canyon creek fight is physically marked >by a stone that is woefully inadequate in describing anything about that >event. I'd like to know more. I've found no maps of those sites in my >personal library so ... any ideas. >Thanks > Kurt > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ron Chamberlain" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nez Perce 1877 Date: 04 May 1999 00:29:17 -0600 Here's another page: http://svinet2.fs.fed.us/r1/nezperce/trav_plnr.html Lone -----Original Message----- >> Hi folks, > >I'm looking for details - preferably maps - of two 'skirmishes' of the >Nez Perce flight of 1877. The Cama Meadows (Idaho) and Canyon Creek >(MT) fights. The sight of the canyon creek fight is physically marked >by a stone that is woefully inadequate in describing anything about that >event. I'd like to know more. I've found no maps of those sites in my >personal library so ... any ideas. >Thanks > Kurt > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Duncan Macready Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: RE: Air rifle Date: 04 May 1999 18:50:09 +1200 Buck wrote As late as the 1890=92s we have seen in this country pneumatic weapons disguised as walking sticks and canes ranging from .40-.50 in caliber wit= h 500-750 FPS velocities capable of killing a man at 40-50 yards. There was an unsolved murder case in England many years ago, where the victim was shot with a crudely made steel bullet. It had no rifeling mark= s or powder residue on it , the Police had a suspect but no weapon. Years later a British TV programme on firearms researched the case, and found a walking stick in the list of objects in the suspects home. They g= ot a walking stick airgun of the same bore as the murder bullet made up a repilca bullet and proved that it was possiable to kill someone with it a= nd it was most likely that the murder was committed with a stick gun, the suspect was long dead but it was an interesting speculation. YMOS Cutfinger. Friendships made. Problems shared. Campfires across the Wilderness ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Duncan Macready Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: RE: Air rifle Date: 04 May 1999 18:50:09 +1200 Buck wrote As late as the 1890=92s we have seen in this country pneumatic weapons disguised as walking sticks and canes ranging from .40-.50 in caliber wit= h 500-750 FPS velocities capable of killing a man at 40-50 yards. There was an unsolved murder case in England many years ago, where the victim was shot with a crudely made steel bullet. It had no rifeling mark= s or powder residue on it , the Police had a suspect but no weapon. Years later a British TV programme on firearms researched the case, and found a walking stick in the list of objects in the suspects home. They g= ot a walking stick airgun of the same bore as the murder bullet made up a repilca bullet and proved that it was possiable to kill someone with it a= nd it was most likely that the murder was committed with a stick gun, the suspect was long dead but it was an interesting speculation. YMOS Cutfinger. Friendships made. Problems shared. Campfires across the Wilderness ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Rick Williams Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Sons of Merriwether Lewis Date: 04 May 1999 09:02:39 -0600 THis would be mere speculation since at no time in his journals does Lewis or Clark discuss any of THEIR daliences with the Native Americans. They both discuss the enlisted men and York (Clark's Servant) but not their own. That it may have occurred is probably true. One theory is that Lewis's spiralling illness and final depression and suicide was due to the large amounts of mercury used to treat syphillis and the laudnaum (opiate) used for other treatments. As the 'doctor' of the expedition he would be the one dispensing these cures which may have increased his own exposure. Lewis never married while he tried to win the hand of several young women upon his return. -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Laura Rugel Glise Sent: Monday, May 03, 1999 9:00 AM Can anyone on the list save me some research? Mary Walker, wife of Elkanah Walker (missionary), writes in her diary that she met the sons of Merriwether Lewis in 1838. Anyone know their names? Appreciate the help. Laura R. Glise Atlanta, Georgia ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Don Neighbors Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sons of Merriwether Lewis Date: 04 May 1999 13:05:11 -0500 George Rogers had no children. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: PowderHawk Date: 04 May 1999 10:20:58 -0700 McKee, You may want to talk to him he was in the AMM in Colorado at one time (few years ago), had to move to Lake Mills, IA a year or so ago to care for his mother. He only gets on-line a few times a month, do not have a number for him, think George Thompson knew of him and mentioned to Buck Conner for "Hawk" to get in touch with you. That's as far as I know at this time. Turtle. > On Mon, 03 May 1999, "McKee" wrote: > Don't know the gentleman ( or anyone else AMM in Iowa) closest is Griz's > boys in MO. If anyone besides me in Iowa...............speak up!! Long > John > CUSTOM MADE LEATHER GOODS, > SPECIALIZING IN THE AMERICAN FUR TRADE ERA > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Charlie P. Webb" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: John Switzer Date: 04 May 1999 11:28:21 -0600 Hey again Barney, Our Colorado John Switzer doesn't make grease lamps either, simply some very nice fire irons and camp gear. You are thinking of the other JS, Switzer Forge that lives east of our shinning mountains, and has been written up in several of the national publications. Our JS's time for such honors has not come up yet, but could happen very soon. :-) I sure would appreciate any of you folks on the list who are planning to attend Rocky Mtn. College Rendezvous looking me up an sayin howdy. I'll most likely be doin a class or two, but for the first time in many years I will not be runnin the shooting program, I' ve retired from such goings on, and am lettin the young wheels strut their stuff! <<< GGG>>> I am no longer able to do the primitive camp bit, so have been relegated to the Handicap camp, not by my choice, but I am a playin the hand delt me. I truly would like a chance ta say "how do" and the opportunity to put face to names. Any CSMLA board member will have a pretty good idea of where Iam hanging out. So do come by!!! Respectfully, C Webb On Mon, 3 May 1999 19:56:55 EDT RR1LA@aol.com writes: >ok, so forget the knives but if'n its the guy i'm thinkin' of, >(JS >Forge) check out his grease lamps. thanks for settin' me straight >charlie. > > Barney Fife > "Fortitude In Distress" > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: John Switzer Date: 04 May 1999 10:40:52 -0700 On Tue, 04 May 1999, "Charlie P. Webb" wrote: Hey Charley, How the war's going with Moose & Goose for the State Assn. ! Buck ______________ > Hey again Barney, > Our Colorado John Switzer doesn't make grease lamps either, > simply some very nice fire irons and camp gear. You are thinking > of the other JS, Switzer Forge that lives east of our shinning > mountains, and has been written up in several of the national > publications. Our JS's time for such honors........................... Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: PowderHawk's Location Date: 04 May 1999 10:45:58 -0700 Mr. McKee, Long John contact me off list for PowderHawk information, will fill you in. Thanks Buck buck.conner@uswestmail.net ________________ > On Tue, 04 May 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote: > > McKee, > You may want to talk to him he was in the AMM in Colorado at one time (few years ago), had to move to Lake Mills, IA a year or so ago to care for his mother. > > He only gets on-line a few times a month, do not have a number for him, think George Thompson knew of him and mentioned to Buck Conner for "Hawk" to get in touch with you. That's as far as I know at this time. > Turtle. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nez Perce 1877 Date: 04 May 1999 13:37:51 -0600 At 05:58 PM 5/3/99 -0700, you wrote: >> Hi folks, > >I'm looking for details - preferably maps - of two 'skirmishes' of the >Nez Perce flight of 1877. The Cama Meadows (Idaho) and Canyon Creek >(MT) fights. The sight of the canyon creek fight is physically marked >by a stone that is woefully inadequate in describing anything about that >event. I'd like to know more. I've found no maps of those sites in my >personal library so ... any ideas. >Thanks > Kurt > Kurt, The Camas Meadows fight is just east of Kilgore, guessing about 15 miles from the I-15. There's a small sign. I haven't been out to the actual site, but they say you can still see the rifle pits. Hope it helps. By the way, it's real pretty country there. > > > > > Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Willie Lube?? Date: 04 May 1999 16:08:13 -0600 Reply to: Re: MtMan-List: Willie Lube?? Then again it may be what Slick Willie uses when he puts it to the = American people. Probably a daily occurence if we only knew. DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants Fred A. Miller wrote: >"Henry B. Crawford" wrote: >> = >> >"Slicker 'n Willie Lube" >> > >> = >> OK, I'll finally ask. Can someone please explain. What the heck is >> "Willie Lube?" > >It's an all-natural lube that Mark DeWilde and I developed over a 2-yr. = period. = >It's available through the site listed below. We make a patch lube and a = bullet >lube. > >Fred > >-- = >"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some! >http://www.cap-n-ball.com/thunder/ > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > > Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with = ESMTP > (SMTPD32-5.01) id A05D170E0144; Mon, 03 May 1999 21:58:21 -0600 > Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.05 #1) > id 10eWKG-0003ip-00 > for hist_text-goout@lists.xmission.com; Mon, 3 May 1999 21:56:56 -0600 > Received: from [24.92.226.74] (helo=3Dmail1.twcny.rr.com ident=3Dmta) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) > id 10eWKE-0003ik-00 > for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Mon, 3 May 1999 21:56:54 -0600 > Received: from lightlink.com ([24.95.169.84]) by mail1.twcny.rr.com > (Post.Office MTA v3.5.2 release 221 ID# 0-= 53939U80000L80000S0V35) > with ESMTP id com for ; > Mon, 3 May 1999 23:53:01 -0400 > Message-ID: <372E6F7D.F5F0F031@lightlink.com> > Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 23:54:37 -0400 > From: "Fred A. Miller" > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i686) > X-Accept-Language: en > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Willie Lube?? > References: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > X-RCPT-TO: > X-UIDL: 1181 > Status: U > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: MtMan-List: Buffalo hides Date: 04 May 1999 18:39:51 -0600 We are tanning quite a few buffalo hides and as usual has some that not of high quality, ie, shorter hair, slip spots, half hides etc. I will be selling these for $300 to $500. They make great tipi robes. We quarentee that they are what you expected, they have life time cleaning and reconditioning, and they is no middle man, Direct from our tannery. I will be posting a list describing each robe, later and will continue all summer. If you are interested, contact me personally. Check out our new web page for prices for tanning. Thanks Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery check out our NEW WEB SITE: http://www.wy-biz.com/absarokawesterndesigns/index.html Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Lodgepole Furniture - Rawhide - Buffalo Robes - Costumes Metal Art - Custom Tanning - Leather - Gifts ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: John Switzer Date: 04 May 1999 19:42:18 -0700 Charlie, If'n all goes according to plan we'll be there. I'll be sure to look you up. We can chew the fat for a spell. See Ya There ! Pendleton -----Original Message----- >Hey again Barney, >Our Colorado John Switzer doesn't make grease lamps either, >simply some very nice fire irons and camp gear. You are thinking >of the other JS, Switzer Forge that lives east of our shinning >mountains, and has been written up in several of the national >publications. Our JS's time for such honors has not come up yet, >but could happen very soon. :-) > I sure would appreciate any of you folks on the list who >are planning to attend Rocky Mtn. College Rendezvous looking >me up an sayin howdy. I'll most likely be doin a class or two, but >for the first time in many years I will not be runnin the shooting >program, I' ve retired from such goings on, and am lettin the young >wheels strut their stuff! <<< GGG>>> I am no longer able to do >the primitive camp bit, so have been relegated to the Handicap >camp, not by my choice, but I am a playin the hand delt me. I truly >would like a chance ta say "how do" and the opportunity to put >face to names. Any CSMLA board member will have a pretty >good idea of where Iam hanging out. So do come by!!! >Respectfully, >C Webb > >On Mon, 3 May 1999 19:56:55 EDT RR1LA@aol.com writes: >>ok, so forget the knives but if'n its the guy i'm thinkin' of, >>(JS >>Forge) check out his grease lamps. thanks for settin' me straight >>charlie. >> >> Barney Fife >> "Fortitude In Distress" >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain College Rendezvous Date: 04 May 1999 19:55:07 -0700 Ok guys. I'm confused. [ It doesn't take much these days ] Is this the correct phone number, address, etc. for the Booshway of The Rocky Mountain College Rendezvous ? Pendleton -----Original Message----- >Pendleton, et al, Per Smoke & Fire News: >Rocky Mountain College Rendezvous, Pike National Forest, Lost Park, Jefferson >CO (CO Highway 285) AUGUST 8-15 Contact John Switzer (who makes fine >knives, grease lamps 'n stuff by the way) 6774 Blue Jay Drive, Parker, CO >80138 phone (303) 841-4432 Hope this helps, YHS Barney Fife > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: Gunsmith needs help Date: 04 May 1999 18:14:10 -0700 Received this message and can some of you folks give him a hand. Buck ------- Start of forwarded message ------- Buck: My son-n-law, Tim Sanders, is trying to start a Gunsmithing business. His specialty Is "Blackpowder", he is a certified gunsmith, and can work on all types. Modern and primitive. He is wanting "blue print" drawings or sketches that show dimensions of original Leman rifles and pistols. Do you, in your vast store house of information,have any idea where he might find something? He has been in "buckskining" since 1987, and has built several"B.P." reproductions. We live in South Central Oklahoma, and any help I can get him, we both will appreciate very much! === George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > 1005 W.Donkey Ln. Marlow Ok. 73055 Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------- End of forwarded message ------- Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "landis" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gunsmith needs help Date: 04 May 1999 18:24:59 -0700 track of the wolf has a lot of blueprints in their catalog. don't know if they are original though? adam landis -----Original Message----- >Received this message and can some of you folks give him a hand. >Buck > >------- Start of forwarded message ------- > >Subject: Leman Rifles >To: buck.conner@uswestmail.net >From: George Noe >Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 17:36:33 -0700 (PDT) > > Buck: My son-n-law, Tim Sanders, is trying to start a Gunsmithing >business. His specialty Is "Blackpowder", he is a certified gunsmith, >and can work on all types. Modern and primitive. > He is wanting "blue print" drawings or sketches that show dimensions >of original Leman rifles and pistols. > Do you, in your vast store house of information,have any idea where he >might find something? > He has been in "buckskining" since 1987, and has built several"B.P." >reproductions. > We live in South Central Oklahoma, and any help I can get him, we both >will appreciate very much! > >=== >George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > 1005 W.Donkey Ln. Marlow Ok. 73055 >Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. >_________________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > >------- End of forwarded message ------- > > >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: PowderHawk Date: 04 May 1999 23:23:36 -0400 oka valley has a bunch of AMM members in their club in Panta Ill--- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com On 4 May 1999 10:20:58 -0700 writes: >McKee, > You may want to talk to him he was in the AMM in Colorado at one >time (few years ago), had to move to Lake Mills, IA a year or so ago >to care for his mother. > > He only gets on-line a few times a month, do not have a number for >him, think George Thompson knew of him and mentioned to Buck Conner >for "Hawk" to get in touch with you. That's as far as I know at this >time. > Turtle. > >> On Mon, 03 May 1999, "McKee" wrote: >> Don't know the gentleman ( or anyone else AMM in Iowa) closest is >Griz's >> boys in MO. If anyone besides me in Iowa...............speak up!! >Long >> John >> CUSTOM MADE LEATHER GOODS, >> SPECIALIZING IN THE AMERICAN FUR TRADE ERA >> > > > >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account >http://www.uswestmail.net > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Charlie P. Webb" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain College Rendezvous Date: 05 May 1999 08:00:35 -0600 E-mail address: Switz@iex.net Phone and snail mail address OK! Diden't mean to confuse, but there are two John Switzers, the booshway for RMC can be found at the listed address. He is not the Knife/lamp maker however! Have a good day!!! C Webb On Tue, 4 May 1999 19:55:07 -0700 "larry pendleton" writes: >Ok guys. I'm confused. [ It doesn't take much these days ] Is this >the >correct phone number, address, etc. for the Booshway of The Rocky >Mountain >College Rendezvous ? >Pendleton >-----Original Message----- >From: RR1LA@aol.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Sunday, May 02, 1999 7:00 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain College Rendezvous > > >>Pendleton, et al, Per Smoke & Fire News: >>Rocky Mountain College Rendezvous, Pike National Forest, Lost Park, >Jefferson >>CO (CO Highway 285) AUGUST 8-15 Contact John Switzer (who makes >fine >>knives, grease lamps 'n stuff by the way) 6774 Blue Jay Drive, >Parker, CO >>80138 phone (303) 841-4432 Hope this helps, YHS Barney Fife >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Laura Glise" Subject: MtMan-List: Dress of Sir William Drummond Stewart Date: 06 May 1999 12:25:10 -0400 I need help from those subject-matter-experts familiar with Scottish costume. At web site: http://www.people.virginia.edu/~jah6v/images/WDStewart.jpg There is a portrait of Sir William Drummond Stewart by Alfred Jacob Miller. First, I need a description of what he's wearing that is historically correct and second, although this is a formal portrait do you think he would have had it with him at the Rendezvous of 1837 or 1838? Second, could one of you describe for me what you think Captain Stewart might have worn on a day-to-day basis at those events. Much obliged. Laura Glise Atlanta, Georgia Access your e-mail anywhere, at any time. Get your FREE BellSouth Web Mail account today! http://webmail.bellsouth.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Date: 06 May 1999 17:01:37 -0600 ???? Is nothing going on or am I having trouble? I haven't received anything in two days. DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "john c. funk,jr" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Date: 06 May 1999 16:17:05 -0700 Thar's Blackfeet about.....shhhhhhh! ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, May 06, 1999 4:01 PM > ???? > Is nothing going on or am I having trouble? I haven't received anything > in two days. > > DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "john c. funk,jr" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Date: 06 May 1999 16:17:05 -0700 Thar's Blackfeet about.....shhhhhhh! ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, May 06, 1999 4:01 PM > ???? > Is nothing going on or am I having trouble? I haven't received anything > in two days. > > DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Date: 06 May 1999 20:10:42 -0700 Maybe they've all gone under. Reckon we can get something started ? Pendleton -----Original Message----- >???? >Is nothing going on or am I having trouble? I haven't received anything >in two days. > >DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Willie Lube?? Date: 06 May 1999 21:33:18 -0400 Phyllis and Don Keas wrote: > > Reply to: Re: MtMan-List: Willie Lube?? > Then again it may be what Slick Willie uses when he puts it to the American people. Probably a daily occurence if we only knew. I'm not gonna touch that one, Don! Fred > > Fred A. Miller wrote: > >"Henry B. Crawford" wrote: > >> >> >"Slicker 'n Willie Lube" > >> > > >> >> OK, I'll finally ask. Can someone please explain. What the heck is > >> "Willie Lube?" > > > >It's an all-natural lube that Mark DeWilde and I developed over a 2-yr. period. >It's available through the site listed below. We make a patch lube and a bullet > >lube. > > > >Fred > > > >-- >"Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some! > >http://www.cap-n-ball.com/thunder/ -- "Slicker 'n Willie Lube".......and that's doin some! http://www.cap-n-ball.com/thunder/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Date: 06 May 1999 20:44:48 -0500 Spring Break, maybe? Throw something out and see which dogs come out = from under the porch....that's an East Texas thing. Lanney ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Thursday, May 06, 1999 6:01 PM > ???? > Is nothing going on or am I having trouble? I haven't received = anything > in two days. >=20 > DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants >=20 >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Date: 06 May 1999 18:45:17 -0700 You boys got porches !!! > On Thu, 06 May 1999, "Ratcliff" wrote: > > Spring Break, maybe? Throw something out and see which dogs come out from under the porch....that's an East Texas thing. > Lanney > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Phyllis and Don Keas > To: History Text > Sent: Thursday, May 06, 1999 6:01 PM > > > > ???? > > Is nothing going on or am I having trouble? I haven't received anything > > in two days. > > > > DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants > > > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Date: 06 May 1999 20:56:41 -0700 Hey was that humor ? If so that ain't allowed. Yep I got a porch. Pendleton -----Original Message----- >You boys got porches !!! > > >> On Thu, 06 May 1999, "Ratcliff" wrote: >> >> Spring Break, maybe? Throw something out and see which dogs come out from under the porch....that's an East Texas thing. >> Lanney >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Phyllis and Don Keas >> To: History Text >> Sent: Thursday, May 06, 1999 6:01 PM >> >> >> > ???? >> > Is nothing going on or am I having trouble? I haven't received anything >> > in two days. >> > >> > DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants >> > >> > > > >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: EmmaPeel2@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: No no no :) Technical glitch only :) Date: 06 May 1999 20:45:26 EDT Thats cos Im trying to print out the darned thing and my printer is throwing temper tantrums. It's coming, it's coming! Hope to have it all printedby tonight :)Fear not! Abi ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Vic Barkin Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Date: 06 May 1999 19:16:44 -0700 (MST) Porches? We don needt no stinkin porches!!! (sorry, had to) B. Dawg >Hey was that humor ? If so that ain't allowed. Yep I got a porch. >Pendleton -----Original Message----- >From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Thursday, May 06, 1999 6:45 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: > > >>You boys got porches !!! >> >> >>> On Thu, 06 May 1999, "Ratcliff" wrote: >>> >>> Spring Break, maybe? Throw something out and see which dogs come out >from under the porch....that's an East Texas thing. >>> Lanney >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Phyllis and Don Keas >>> To: History Text >>> Sent: Thursday, May 06, 1999 6:01 PM >>> >>> >>> > ???? >>> > Is nothing going on or am I having trouble? I haven't received >anything >>> > in two days. >>> > >>> > DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants >>> > >>> > >> >> >>Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net >> >> Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party "Aux aliments du pays!" Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "James Sullivan" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Date: 06 May 1999 21:15:17 -0500 Porches??? 'Fraid any dogs restin' under mine better be a damn sight skinnier than me! (Concrete porch!!!) Pointi ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: RE: MtMan-List: No no no :) Technical glitch only :) Date: 06 May 1999 21:07:17 -0600 Reply to: RE: MtMan-List: No no no :) Technical glitch only :) Are you having a bad day, Emma? DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants EmmaPeel2 wrote: >Thats cos Im trying to print out the darned thing and my printer is = throwing = >temper tantrums. It's coming, it's coming! Hope to have it all printedby = >tonight :)Fear not! >Abi > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > > Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with = ESMTP > (SMTPD32-5.01) id A9F5400114; Thu, 06 May 1999 20:03:33 -0600 > Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.05 #1) > id 10fZz8-0005NN-00 > for hist_text-goout@lists.xmission.com; Thu, 6 May 1999 20:03:30 -0600 > Received: from [198.81.17.2] (helo=3Dimo12.mx.aol.com) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) > id 10fZz6-0005MC-00 > for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Thu, 6 May 1999 20:03:28 -0600 > Received: from EmmaPeel2@aol.com (14389) > by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id fHDRa24272 > for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 20:45:28 -0400 (= EDT) > From: EmmaPeel2@aol.com > Message-ID: <8dc23b54.246391a6@aol.com> > Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 20:45:26 EDT > Subject: MtMan-List: No no no :) Technical glitch only :) > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 10 > Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > X-RCPT-TO: > X-UIDL: 1219 > Status: U > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: MtMan-List: Porchess?? Date: 06 May 1999 21:07:13 -0600 I had to do it , didn't I? I just had to do it. Couldn't leave well enough alone could I? DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Date: 06 May 1999 23:02:01 -0400 Hard workins smith's. Such as meself, for example, have just been busy.. D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accouterments http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 -----Original Message----- Spring Break, maybe? Throw something out and see which dogs come out from under the porch....that's an East Texas thing. Lanney ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, May 06, 1999 6:01 PM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Farseer Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Date: 06 May 1999 22:08:10 -0500 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE980D.0C808A60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit They're Crow!! I can read sign! ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE980D.0C808A60 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IgIDAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYA6AEAAAEAAAAQAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAAVwAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGhpc3RfdGV4dEBsaXN0 cy54bWlzc2lvbi5jb20AU01UUABoaXN0X3RleHRAbGlzdHMueG1pc3Npb24uY29tAAAeAAIwAQAA AAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AAzABAAAAHQAAAGhpc3RfdGV4dEBsaXN0cy54bWlzc2lvbi5jb20AAAAA AwAVDAEAAAADAP4PBgAAAB4AATABAAAAHwAAACdoaXN0X3RleHRAbGlzdHMueG1pc3Npb24uY29t JwAAAgELMAEAAAAiAAAAU01UUDpISVNUX1RFWFRATElTVFMuWE1JU1NJT04uQ09NAAAAAwAAOQAA AAALAEA6AQAAAB4A9l8BAAAAHQAAAGhpc3RfdGV4dEBsaXN0cy54bWlzc2lvbi5jb20AAAAAAgH3 XwEAAABXAAAAAAAAAIErH6S+oxAZnW4A3QEPVAIAAAAAaGlzdF90ZXh0QGxpc3RzLnhtaXNzaW9u LmNvbQBTTVRQAGhpc3RfdGV4dEBsaXN0cy54bWlzc2lvbi5jb20AAAMA/V8BAAAAAwD/XwAAAAAC AfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAACoXQBBIABABUAAABSRTogTXRNYW4tTGlzdDogUmU6IAACBgEFgAMADgAA AM8HBQAGABYACAAKAAQADQEBIIADAA4AAADPBwUABgAWAAcAOQAEADsBAQmAAQAhAAAAMDUwQkY0 RjJGRjAzRDMxMTkxM0YwMDYwOTcwODJBNjQA7wYBA5AGAFwDAAAhAAAACwACAAEAAAALACMAAAAA AAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADAC4AAAAAAAMANgAAAAAAQAA5AKCsf9Y2mL4BHgBwAAEAAAAVAAAA UkU6IE10TWFuLUxpc3Q6IFJlOiAAAAAAAgFxAAEAAAAWAAAAAb6YNtZu8vQLBgP/EdORPwBglwgq ZAAAHgAeDAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAB8MAQAAABMAAABmYXJzZWVyQHN3YmVsbC5uZXQAAAMA BhAGQ79vAwAHEBYAAAAeAAgQAQAAABcAAABUSEVZUkVDUk9XSUNBTlJFQURTSUdOAAACAQkQAQAA AJMAAACPAAAAyAAAAExaRnV5l4b+AwAKAHJjcGcxMjUWMgD4C2BuDhAwMzOdAfcgAqQD4wIAY2gK wGBzZXQwIAcTAoB9swqACMggOwlvDjA1AoDZCoF1YwBQCwNjAEELtUAgVGhleScJcCBCQwNgdyEh IBagSYwgYwORCXBhZCAAkPhnbiEKogqECoEVAAFACxfjEfEAGXAAAwAQEAAAAAADABEQAQAAAAMA gBD/////QAAHMMDvnM42mL4BQAAIMMDvnM42mL4BCwAAgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAA4UA AAAAAAADAAKACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAQhQAAAAAAAAMABYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABG AAAAAFKFAAC3DQAAHgAlgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAVIUAAAEAAAAEAAAAOC4wAAMAJoAI IAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAAGFAAAAAAAACwAvgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAADoUAAAAA AAADADCACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAARhQAAAAAAAAMAMoAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAA ABiFAAAAAAAAHgBBgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAANoUAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4AQoAIIAYA AAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADeFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAEOACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAA4 hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgA9AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6IAAAAAADAA00/TcAAKyB ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE980D.0C808A60-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gail Carbiener" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dress of Sir William Drummond Stewart Date: 06 May 1999 20:21:50 -0700 Laura: The book "Alfred Jacob Miller: Artist on the Oregon Trail", edited by Ron Tyler and published by the Amon Carter Museum in 1982 has a number of Miller pictures of Stewart all pretty much in buckskin. He does not have on his formal military uniform at all. My guess is Stewart wanted to be as much like the mountain men as he could. The picture "Taking the Hump Rib" clearly shows fringed buckskin and leggings. In the picture "Presents to the Indians" he is dressed in a long, almost knee length, buckskin, fringed coat, with long pants also fringed. The book is outstanding if you like Miller, it may still be available at the Museum. Gail Carbiener ================================================= -----Original Message----- >I need help from those subject-matter-experts familiar with Scottish costume. > >At web site: > >http://www.people.virginia.edu/~jah6v/images/WDStewart.jpg > >There is a portrait of Sir William Drummond Stewart by Alfred Jacob Miller. > >First, I need a description of what he's wearing that is historically correct and second, although this is a formal portrait do you think he would have had it with him at the Rendezvous of 1837 or 1838? > >Second, could one of you describe for me what you think Captain Stewart might have worn on a day-to-day basis at those events. > >Much obliged. > >Laura Glise >Atlanta, Georgia > > > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - >Access your e-mail anywhere, at any time. >Get your FREE BellSouth Web Mail account today! >http://webmail.bellsouth.net >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Date: 06 May 1999 23:15:48 -0400 Ya IDJET, Them's BLACKFOOT!!! "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accouterments http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 -----Original Message----- >They're Crow!! I can read sign! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Facial Hair Date: 06 May 1999 21:28:44 EDT Hey guys, In need of a little help. Does anyone know of any paintings around 1812 or before, residing on the frontier, preferably midwest, that show men with beards or mustaches? I will be needing documentation, or pictures of this ASAP as I am working on a presentation. Thanks! Traphand Traphand@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:wooden shoes Date: 06 May 1999 20:36:56 -0700 Hello the camp! Over on the MLML some one asked about making Moc's and in my answer I mentioned seeing some comment in the not too distant past about the use of wooden shoes or "clooges" (wooden shoes with the back part cut away like slip on's. Well B'ar Killer over there thought that was pretty interesting and wanted to know the reference for such foot wear. I ain't got it but I think it was discussed on this list not too far back. Any one out there that can help us out on this? They were used in the east in Colonial times I'm sure but can't prove it now. Help! I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Smith Subject: MtMan-List: In the white vs. browning vs. blueing Date: 06 May 1999 21:22:47 -0700 Okay, I felt like opening a can of worms, so I'm tossing this out to ya'll: My Dad is building me a gun. We're discussing all the minutae. He's decided to buy a kit from Caywood that sound pretty great. Caywood tells him that they can supply it in the white or blued. They say that blued is historically accurate. Now, my running buddies are all over me to take the blueing off my brand new flintlock and brown it! So, I says to Dad: "I want it in the white or browned." So Dad, being related to me, proceeds to drown me in facts about how blued is historically accurate. Help! Dad's a great guy, and has been shooting muzzleloaders all his life, but he's not "one of us!" And I just don't trust a guy who won't truss his privates up in a piece of wool! Any of you guys who've been to the Museum of the Fur Trade care to tell me what you saw there? Most gratefully yours, Tassee ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: In the white vs. browning vs. blueing Date: 07 May 1999 00:32:47 EDT you might consider checking with danny caywood. seems to me he, being one of the best in the business, would be making accurate replicas, and would be happy to share the info with you. yhs, Barn. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:wooden shoes Date: 07 May 1999 07:35:31 EDT In a message dated 5/6/99 10:41:28 PM EST, lahtirog@gte.net writes: << the use of wooden shoes or "clooges" (wooden shoes with the back part cut away like slip on's... wanted to know the reference for such foot wear. YMOS Capt. Lahti' >> There was an article in Muzzleloader last year that covered this, documented it and showed how to do it. My wife, Sweet Cakes, is looking for it as she wants me to do that to a pair of wooden shoes she has that got damaged. We have all of the Muzzleloader mags fro the last few years so if I find the article I will pass the info on. I have a pair of wooden shoes that have the area that covers the arch of the foot made from leather rather than the hard wood. I documented these at the Holland Trading Company display in the main (forgot name) large museum in Amsterdam. And as my wife's maiden name is Van Zandavoord our persona can and do wear them at camps when the grass is cold or wet. Your Humble Servant C.T. Oakes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: In the white vs. browning vs. blueing Date: 07 May 1999 07:33:22 -0700 Sorry, Caywood and your father are correct; government contracts, tradegun contracts for the most part stated "white" or "blue" for a finish. Information on many of the gun builders built guns with metal "white" as a standard in the early years according to Kit Ravenshear, around the turn of the 19th century "browning" started to appear. Usually weapons before that may have looked "browned" or "modeled" in appearance, but were really just rusted, as starting life in the white. I'll sure others will have different opinions, but like Hawk will tell you, look for good documentation, don't listen to uneducated guesses. Buck > On Thu, 06 May 1999, Barbara Smith wrote: > > Okay, I felt like opening a can of worms, so I'm tossing this out to > ya'll: > > My Dad is building me a gun. We're discussing all the minutae. He's > decided to buy a kit from Caywood that sound pretty great. Caywood tells > him that they can supply it in the white or blued. They say that blued > is historically accurate. > > Now, my running buddies are all over me to take the blueing off my brand > new flintlock and brown it! So, I says to Dad: "I want it in the white > or browned." So Dad, being related to me, proceeds to drown me in facts > about how blued is historically accurate. Help! Dad's a great guy, and > has been shooting muzzleloaders all his life, but he's not "one of us!" > And I just don't trust a guy who won't truss his privates up in a piece > of wool! Any of you guys who've been to the Museum of the Fur Trade > care to tell me what you saw there? > > Most gratefully yours, > Tassee Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:wooden shoes Date: 07 May 1999 08:55:03 -0700 CTOAKES@aol.com wrote: > > > There was an article in Muzzleloader last year that covered this, documented > it and showed how to do it. C.T.: Thanks for the memory jogger. I remember reading it now too. If you come up with the ML issue in question pass it on and I'll look it up myself and pass the info on to B'ar Killer on the MLML. thanks again. I remain...... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: In the white vs. browning vs. blueing Date: 07 May 1999 09:00:30 -0700 As a general rule of thumb, what Buck stated is pretty close, but there are always exceptions to anything as we have seen on the drop front pants discussion a week or two ago. I read that the Manton's always blued or color case hardened all the metal parts, then at a museum in England I find two cased guns that are a plumb brown, they were originally manufactured in that finish by John Manton. Have seen documentation stating the same about Twig (Manton learned his trade from him), same story as the Manton's - blued or color case hardened all the metal parts, then see a brown metal pair of matched pistols ! When we state white is white or black is black, that may not always be true because somewhere theres a gray one. Turtle. > On Fri, 07 May 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > > Sorry, Caywood and your father are correct; government contracts, tradegun contracts for the most part stated "white" or "blue" for a finish. Information on many of the gun builders built guns with metal "white" as a standard in the early years according to Kit Ravenshear, around the turn of the 19th century "browning" started to appear. Usually weapons before that may have looked "browned" or "modeled" in appearance, but were really just rusted, as starting life in the white. > > I'll sure others will have different opinions, but like Hawk will tell you, look for good documentation, don't listen to uneducated guesses. > > Buck > > > On Thu, 06 May 1999, Barbara Smith wrote: > > > > Okay, I felt like opening a can of worms, so I'm tossing this out to > > ya'll: > > > > My Dad is building me a gun. We're discussing all the minutae. He's > > decided to buy a kit from Caywood that sound pretty great. Caywood tells > > him that they can supply it in the white or blued. They say that blued > > is historically accurate. > > > > Now, my running buddies are all over me to take the blueing off my brand > > new flintlock and brown it! So, I says to Dad: "I want it in the white > > or browned." So Dad, being related to me, proceeds to drown me in facts > > about how blued is historically accurate. Help! Dad's a great guy, and > > has been shooting muzzleloaders all his life, but he's not "one of us!" > > And I just don't trust a guy who won't truss his privates up in a piece > > of wool! Any of you guys who've been to the Museum of the Fur Trade > > care to tell me what you saw there? > > > > Most gratefully yours, > > Tassee > > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: MtMan-List: [Fwd: Period correct footwear] Date: 07 May 1999 09:03:42 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7839A663BFBB9A84A85A92E2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit C. T.: Just got this answer to our question about an article on wooden shoes. Hope this speeds up your search and thanks for the comeback. I remain....... YMOS Capt. Lahti' --------------7839A663BFBB9A84A85A92E2 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from smtp2.vnet.net ([166.82.1.32]) by relay1.mailsrvcs.net (InterMail v03.02.04 118 119) with ESMTP id <19990507131934.MCWA1920@smtp2.vnet.net> for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 08:19:34 -0500 Received: from lmd.vnet.net (lmd.vnet.net [166.82.1.41]) by smtp2.vnet.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA06636; Fri, 7 May 1999 09:20:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lmd (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lmd.vnet.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA19353; Fri, 7 May 1999 09:19:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <19990507.060034.-294919.0.redthumbw@juno.com> Errors-To: thisoldfox@aol.com Reply-To: mlml@vnet.net Originator: mlml@vnet.net Sender: mlml@vnet.net Precedence: none X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Muzzle Loader Mailing List. (public) B'ar Killer: I think the reference if "Sabots" in the Mar/Apr 1997 issue of Muzz Loader by Cathy Johnson. >>support the use of "wooden shoes" but they generally didn't seem to >Wish you could remember the source. My understanding is that clogs > >B'ar Killer Red Thumb redthumbw@juno.com --------------7839A663BFBB9A84A85A92E2-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Spencer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:wooden shoes Date: 07 May 1999 12:30:06 -0400 >Thanks for the memory jogger. I remember reading it now too. If you come >up with >the ML issue in question pass it on and I'll look it up myself and pass >the info >on to B'ar Killer on the MLML. thanks again. I remain...... The article you are looking for is in the Mar/Apr 1997 issue of Muzzleloader, but it's by Cathy Johnson, not Beth Gilgun. Page 79, "Sabot". BTW, there is an index of all issues of Muzzleloader since 1992 on the MLML home page. Quick and easy to find stuff there, since your browser will do a word search for you. Have to know the proper word, though. Bob Bob Spencer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: In the white vs. browning vs. blueing Date: 07 May 1999 09:55:15 -0700 Barbara Smith wrote: > Okay, I felt like opening a can of worms, so I'm tossing this out to > ya'll: > > My Dad is building me a gun. They say that blued > is historically accurate. > > And I just don't trust a guy who won't truss his privates up in a piece > of wool! Any of you guys who've been to the Museum of the Fur Trade > care to tell me what you saw there? Tassee; Well darlin, you know you can trust the "old Captain" now don't cha? Your daddy and Caywood are right when they say that "in the white or blued" is historically correct for many of the old guns. The problem is in appearance and peer pressure. For my part I would go with in the white or brown. Mainly because I don't like the look of blued muzzleloaders and I don't like a shiny barrel in the woods though they do look nice, especially after they have taken on an aged appearance. In any case it is your gun and you should be able to have it any way you want. As to the Museum of the Fur Trade, it has been a number of years since I was there but most of the old guns I have seen in that collection and since in other collections were brown whether they started out that way or ended up that way from natural rusting. That may be why we "see" browned metal parts as being correct to our modern eye even though they may have been white or blue to start out with originally. Walk your own path young lady! I remain........ YMOS Capt. Lahti' > > > Most gratefully yours, > Tassee ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Rock Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #294 Date: 07 May 1999 10:14:21 -0500 Want something to talk about? Okay, all the Scots running around in plaids and playing the pipes at Rendezvous. Real or what? I know the pipes would put the run on the Injun's, but were they AT any of the original Rendy'z? And now a treat. At a midwest Rendezvous this last weekend, almost all of us, all three hundred lodges, got to see a NEW Hawken. The paperwork by John Baird was within the last year. He surmises the piece was part of the Ashley resupply effort of 1822, which if you read up on it, had Ashley back on the river in just two weeks time, re outfitted. As it was the peak of the season, Hawken and the other smiths in town were short handed, and every available smith was put in a tizzy getting Ashley going. The rifle is fullstock, brass furniture, and has a stamp that does not have the St. Louis. Baird has seen it on two other guns, one a pistol. The three pieces are non-typical of the shop's run of the mill work. This is he feels, due to the emergency nature of the work, and the fact that non-Hawken smiths were pressed into service for the jobs. Great rifle, great work by Baird, and such a deal for the finder. Rock ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: In the white-brown-blue vs aging Date: 07 May 1999 10:35:31 -0700 Barbara, Another choice is to have your father "age" the white metal parts, there are many methods around to do this giving the appearance of a gun that has a few years of wear. (some folks make a weapon look 100 years old and their persona is 1780 with a correct gun, except it looks older than the period, thus missing the whole point of period correct.) Hope that can out right. I use your common old Clorox bleach and cold gun blue, clean the metal - then wipe on the bleach, let the parts set for an hour - wipe on the cold blue and then wipe again with the bleach. Let the second coat sit for 1/2 an hour and then wash off. Don't forget to plug bore, vent hole, etc., then wash with soap/water and oil. This will give a pleasing look that would have taken a year or two of field use to get. Oil when you clean and thats as simple as it gets, plus its easy to touch up in case of an accident. Buck Conner Colorado Territory > On Fri, 07 May 1999, Roger Lahti wrote: > Barbara Smith wrote: > > > Okay, I felt like opening a can of worms, so I'm tossing this out to > > ya'll: > > > > My Dad is building me a gun. They say that blued > > is historically accurate. > > > > And I just don't trust a guy who won't truss his privates up in a piece > > of wool! Any of you guys who've been to the Museum of the Fur Trade > > care to tell me what you saw there? > > Tassee; > > Well darlin, you know you can trust the "old Captain" now don't cha? Your > daddy and Caywood are right when they say that "in the white or blued" is > historically correct for many of the old guns. The problem is in appearance > and peer pressure. For my part I would go with in the white or brown. Mainly > because I don't like the look of blued muzzleloaders and I don't like a > shiny barrel in the woods though they do look nice, especially after they > have taken on an aged appearance. In any case it is your gun and you should > be able to have it any way you want. > > As to the Museum of the Fur Trade, it has been a number of years since I was > there but most of the old guns I have seen in that collection and since in > other collections were brown whether they started out that way or ended up > that way from natural rusting. That may be why we "see" browned metal parts > as being correct to our modern eye even though they may have been white or > blue to start out with originally. Walk your own path young lady! I > remain........ > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > > > > > > Most gratefully yours, > > Tassee Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Laura Rugel Glise Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dress of Sir William Drummond Stewart Date: 07 May 1999 18:00:24 +0000 Gail: Thank you for responding to my e-mail. You were the only one that jumped in. I am writing a novel of historical fiction, Across the Seasons, involving Osborne Russell and the Rendezvous of 1838. The only license I have taken is moving Alfred Jacob Miller from the Rendezvous of 1837 to 1838. I know. But although I am doing my best to be historically correct, I feel I can justify the switch. Available at the Museum? The Museum in Pinedale or Chadron. Thank again for your help. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Mullen Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dress of Sir William Drummond Stewart Date: 07 May 1999 19:51:06 -0600 Ms. Glise, If you are doing research regarding the attire of Sir William Drummond Stewart you may want to consider reading several very pertinent texts regarding Sir William. The first book you may want to consult is _Scotsman in Buckskin: Sir William Drummond Stewart and the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade_ by Mae Reed Porter and Odessa Davenport (Hastings House Publishers, New York, 1963). As you can see by the date the book is far out of print and you will have to consult a library to find a copy. Porter and Davenport did a nice job of putting together their biography, yet the book does lack footnotes of any type. IIRC there is a description of Sir William wearing tartan pantaloons at rendezvous. There was no mention of kilts being worn by anyone. A second book that you may wish to consult is _Edward Warren_ by Sir William Drummond Stewart ( Mountain Press Publishing, Missoula, 1986). This book by Stewart is semi-autobiographical in nature and has many good references to clothing worn at rendezvous. This book is still available and you should be ale to purchase a copy through your local bookstore. Additional artwork as done by Alfred Jacob Miller may be found in _The West of Alfred Jacob Miller_ by Marvin C. Ross, and a series of Miller's original drawings may be found in _A Series of Watercolour Drawings by Alfred Jacob Miller_ (Parke_Bernet Galleries, Inc.). Hope this is of some assistance. YMHOS, David Mullen -- David Mullen 202 Mesa Verde Jemez Springs NM 87025 (505) 829-3212 email: dmullen@jemez.com Laura Rugel Glise wrote: >I need help from those subject-matter-experts familiar with Scottish costume. > >At web site: > >http://www.people.virginia.edu/~jah6v/images/WDStewart.jpg > >There is a portrait of Sir William Drummond Stewart by Alfred Jacob Miller. > >First, I need a description of what he's wearing that is historically correct and second, although this is a formal portrait do you think he would have had it with him at the Rendezvous of 1837 or 1838? > >Second, could one of you describe for me what you think Captain Stewart might have worn on a day-to-day basis at those events. > >Much obliged. > >Laura Glise >Atlanta, Georgia ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gail Carbiener" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dress of Sir William Drummond Stewart Date: 07 May 1999 19:07:39 -0700 Laura: If you look at Bibliofind on the Net under subject of Alfred Jacob Miller you will find all the books mentioned to date. The museum is in Dallas, TX. gail ==================== -----Original Message----- >Gail: > >Thank you for responding to my e-mail. You were the only one that >jumped in. I am writing a novel of historical fiction, Across the >Seasons, involving Osborne Russell and the Rendezvous of 1838. The only >license I have taken is moving Alfred Jacob Miller from the Rendezvous >of 1837 to 1838. I know. > >But although I am doing my best to be historically correct, I feel I can >justify the switch. > >Available at the Museum? The Museum in Pinedale or Chadron. > >Thank again for your help. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kent Duryee Subject: MtMan-List: Flintlock question Date: 07 May 1999 19:22:40 -0700 Greetings, all; I have in my possession a Kentucky style flintlock rifle in beautiful condition which was made for my father by a gun smith in 1967. Is there somewhere I could find out how much this rifle is worth, or perhaps someone on the list who might have some idea about this? I'd appreciate any help you all could provide! Thanks, Kent Duryee -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: In the white vs. browning vs. blueing Date: 08 May 1999 08:27:37 -0700 Barbara, Thanks for opening this can of worms, I'm enjoying it. This is a topic my buddies and I have argued for years. Your Dad and Buck are exactly right. The letters between J.J. Henry and The American Fur Company that show where AFC was ordering their guns for the 1829 Rendezvous show that AFC ordered these guns BLUED. Now someone else will have to tell you if todays blueing is the same as back then. I doubt it. I have been told the blueing method used back then was the charcoal method. I simply don't know much about blueing methods. As far as todays practice of browning all muzzleloaders, I feel it is wrong. Yes some guns were browned but I doubt if it was a common practice. I base this on the fact that many advertisements for gunsmiths lists the prices of their various products and almost all of them either list browned barrels at higher price or list browned barrels available by special order. Today's browning of barrels is an effort to recreate the look of original 18th and 19th century guns. The fact is those guns obtained that look setting in someone's closet for many years. Probably the way to tell what guns looked like back then on a day to day basis is to look at some of the old Winchesters that were carried daily for decades until they were finally retired from service. They have a unique pattina that I cannot adequately describe here, but it was created by daily handling with sweaty hands, rubbed on saddle leather, rained on, and being laid on saddle pads soaked in horse sweat. Great stuff huh ! The gun that I most recently rebuilt, I left in the white. I question how much of the blueing would have been left on the barrels by the time they reached their destination at rendezvous or far distant forts. One final fact is that most of the trade guns were shipped in a canvas sack or gun case. It seems to me that is not a method of shippment that would do a real good job of preserving the finish on a gun. Canvas being pretty abrasive and the constant handling of the guns enroute leads me to believe that there wasn't much blueing left on the guns by the time they got to where they were going. This is more words that I have written about anything in a spell. I hope I ain't wore ya'll out with my rambling. I don't claim to a expert on anything and anyone with any additional info pro or con to what I have said, please jump in and share it with us. Pendleton -----Original Message----- >Okay, I felt like opening a can of worms, so I'm tossing this out to >ya'll: > >My Dad is building me a gun. We're discussing all the minutae. He's >decided to buy a kit from Caywood that sound pretty great. Caywood tells >him that they can supply it in the white or blued. They say that blued >is historically accurate. > >Now, my running buddies are all over me to take the blueing off my brand >new flintlock and brown it! So, I says to Dad: "I want it in the white >or browned." So Dad, being related to me, proceeds to drown me in facts >about how blued is historically accurate. Help! Dad's a great guy, and >has been shooting muzzleloaders all his life, but he's not "one of us!" >And I just don't trust a guy who won't truss his privates up in a piece >of wool! Any of you guys who've been to the Museum of the Fur Trade >care to tell me what you saw there? > >Most gratefully yours, >Tassee > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flintlock question Date: 08 May 1999 11:36:23 -0400 On Fri, 07 May 1999 19:22:40 -0700 Kent Duryee writes: >Greetings, all; > >I have in my possession a Kentucky style flintlock rifle in beautiful >condition which was made for my father by a gun smith in 1967. Is >there >somewhere I could find out how much this rifle is worth, send me a msg off line with a description and if you know who the maker is and any information and or marks on the gun---must be complete then will try to give you a idea--- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: In the white vs. browning vs. blueing Date: 08 May 1999 11:09:17 -0400 dont know of any military contracts that says that the hardware on the guns should be browned---all i have seen states that they will be delivered blued or in the white---some of the scollers on the list may have documentation but i dont have but it's a interesting thing---most of the guns that look browned were actually got that way from usage and not done by the maker. best of my knowledge your father is correct ----blue or in the white and the blue is a blue/black without sheen---some of the locks were color cases as were some of the other small parts on the guns---a lot depends on the maker and his methodologies that he used--- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com On 7 May 1999 07:33:22 -0700 writes: >Sorry, Caywood and your father are correct; government contracts, >tradegun contracts for the most part stated "white" or "blue" for a >finish. Information on many of the gun builders built guns with metal >"white" as a standard in the early years according to Kit Ravenshear, >around the turn of the 19th century "browning" started to appear. >Usually weapons before that may have looked "browned" or "modeled" in >appearance, but were really just rusted, as starting life in the >white. > >I'll sure others will have different opinions, but like Hawk will tell >you, look for good documentation, don't listen to uneducated guesses. > >Buck > >> On Thu, 06 May 1999, Barbara Smith wrote: >> >> Okay, I felt like opening a can of worms, so I'm tossing this out to >> ya'll: >> >> My Dad is building me a gun. We're discussing all the minutae. He's >> decided to buy a kit from Caywood that sound pretty great. Caywood >tells >> him that they can supply it in the white or blued. They say that >blued >> is historically accurate. >> >> Now, my running buddies are all over me to take the blueing off my >brand >> new flintlock and brown it! So, I says to Dad: "I want it in the >white >> or browned." So Dad, being related to me, proceeds to drown me in >facts >> about how blued is historically accurate. Help! Dad's a great guy, >and >> has been shooting muzzleloaders all his life, but he's not "one of >us!" >> And I just don't trust a guy who won't truss his privates up in a >piece >> of wool! Any of you guys who've been to the Museum of the Fur Trade >> care to tell me what you saw there? >> >> Most gratefully yours, >> Tassee > > >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account >http://www.uswestmail.net > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sidney Porter" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Date: 08 May 1999 13:34:57 -0700 II'm not sure what's going on, but I can't get anything on the internet to work. I have current mail at this address, but can't even open hotmail to get anything there. I'm surely curious. I have never known the entire WWW to not function. ????, too, Sidney > ???? > Is nothing going on or am I having trouble? I haven't received anything > in two days. > > DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: EmmaPeel2@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: browser problems Date: 08 May 1999 14:59:33 EDT Do you have Internet Explorer 4.0? Sometimes if you delete it, or a section of it, the wrong way it fudges up all access to the Net.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Date: 08 May 1999 15:09:09 EDT sidney, sounds like your browser has been corrupted by either erroreous deletion or a system crash. if you have any way to get to microsoft online, download and install internet explorer 5.0; it will update/correct any corrupted files, as well as giving you the best version of IE available. if you can't get to the web to download it, pick up a copy of almost any internet service provider software (aol, earthlink, att, etc.,at a store (usually free) and install IE (any version) again, then go get the new version. hope this helps, yhs, Barney Fife ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tommy Edge Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Date: 08 May 1999 14:15:24 -0500 RR1LA@aol.com wrote: > sidney, sounds like your browser has been corrupted by either erroreous > deletion or a system crash. if you have any way to get to microsoft online, > download and install internet explorer 5.0; it will update/correct any > corrupted files, as well as giving you the best version of IE available. if > you can't get to the web to download it, pick up a copy of almost any > internet service provider software (aol, earthlink, att, etc.,at a store > (usually free) and install IE (any version) again, then go get the new > version. hope this helps, yhs, Barney Fife get rid of microsoft download netscape 4.5 had the same problem until I started using netscape. -- Thank You Tommy Edge http://www.nex.net/tedge ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Browser Problem Date: 08 May 1999 15:27:10 EDT never had a problem with IE, but i will have to admit that maybe bill gates pockets are a bit overstuffed already. netscape works great too (i use both of them) and it (netscape) should also be on almost any ISP software disk (except the microsoft network of course LOL). good luck, Barn ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: MtMan-List: New can of worms!!!! Date: 08 May 1999 18:11:07 -0700 (PDT) In this vast store house of minds and resources, does anyone know a source of listings of Treaties with the Indians? I probably won't be lucky enough to find a total list in one place. But, any would be a start. I am particually interested in treaties with the Creeks. Also, I want to find a contract between Henry Deringer and the U.S. government to make guns for the Indians migrating West of the Mississippi. This probably was about 1830.( + or - a few years. I found in "The Treaty Of Washington" 1832. Article XIII And to each emigrating warrior a rifle, molds, wipping stick and ammunition. And to each family a blanket. We think, maybe, these are possibly some of the guns. Any HELP out there??? === George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > 1005 W.Donkey Ln. Marlow Ok. 73055 Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Mullen Subject: MtMan-List: Creek Treaties Date: 08 May 1999 20:05:58 -0600 Mr. Noe, If you are just looking for a list of the Treaty names themselves there is a complete list included in _American Indian Treaties: The History of a Political Anomaly_, Francis Paul Prucha (University of California Press, Los Angeles, 1994), Appendix B. If you are looking for the specific treaties themselves you must go elsewhere. The definitive work on Treaties with the Indians is _Indian Affairs:Laws and Treaties_ Volume 2, by Charles J. Kappler (Washington; Government Printing Office, 1903). It was a very limited printing the first time (500 copies) and was printed again in 1904, again a very limited run (3000 copies). A 1973 fascimile copy was published by Interland Printing and may be available through interlibrary loan. This text includes the entire text of all treaties ever conducted on behalf of the United States with the various tribes. The Creek were involved in the following seventeen treaties: New York - 7 Aug. 1790 Colerain - 29 June 1796 Fort Wilkinson - 16 June 1802 Washington - 14 Nov 1805 Fort Jackson - 9 Aug. 1814 Creek Agency - 22 Jan. 1818 Indian Springs - 8 Jan 1821 Indian Springs - 12 Feb. 1825 Washington - 24 Jan. 1826 Creek Agency - 15 Nov. 1827 Washington - 24 March 1832 Fort Gibson - 14 Feb. 1833 Fort Gibson - 23 Nov. 1838 Creek Agency - 4 Jan. 1845 Washington - 13 June 1854 Wshington - 7 Aug. 1856 Washington - 16 June 1866 Why the interest and which particular documents are you interested in? Looking forward to hearing your response. YMHOS, David Mullen -- David & Evelyn Mullen 202 Mesa Verde Jemez Springs, NM 87025 (505) 829-3212 email: dmullen@jemez.com George Noe wrote: > > In this vast store house of minds and resources, does anyone know a > source of listings of Treaties with the Indians? > I probably won't be lucky enough to find a total list in one place. > But, any would be a start. > I am particually interested in treaties with the Creeks. > Also, I want to find a contract between Henry Deringer > and the U.S. government to make guns for the Indians > migrating West of the Mississippi. > This probably was about 1830.( + or - a few years. > > I found in "The Treaty Of Washington" 1832. Article XIII And to each > emigrating warrior a rifle, molds, wipping stick and ammunition. And to > each family a blanket. > We think, maybe, these are possibly some of the guns. > Any HELP out there??? > > === > George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > 1005 W.Donkey Ln. Marlow Ok. 73055 > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: New can of worms!!!! Date: 08 May 1999 21:11:42 -0500 George, Click here for the treaties with the Creeks. http://www.cviog.uga.edu/Projects/gainfo/creek.htm For more information choose a browser (I used Yahoo) and enter a search = for the following: creek + indian + treaties Hope this helps. Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Saturday, May 08, 1999 8:11 PM > In this vast store house of minds and resources, does anyone know a > source of listings of Treaties with the Indians? > I probably won't be lucky enough to find a total list in one place. > But, any would be a start. > I am particually interested in treaties with the Creeks. > Also, I want to find a contract between Henry Deringer > and the U.S. government to make guns for the Indians=20 > migrating West of the Mississippi. > This probably was about 1830.( + or - a few years.=20 >=20 > I found in "The Treaty Of Washington" 1832. Article XIII And to each > emigrating warrior a rifle, molds, wipping stick and ammunition. And = to > each family a blanket. > We think, maybe, these are possibly some of the guns. > Any HELP out there??? >=20 > =3D=3D=3D > George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > 1005 = W.Donkey Ln. Marlow Ok. 73055 > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com >=20 >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: Challenge of the Trail REVIEW Date: 08 May 1999 19:17:07 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format... ------------=_926216227-15992-1 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Hello Camp, Just finished viewing the latest video done by our guides: Jeff hengesbaugh and Wes Housler titled "Challenge of the Trail" Skills of the Mountain Man 1820-1840. They are improving their acting skills, and the overall effort is well done for a low dollar to no dollar available production, when considered what Hollywood puts out these boys have done very good. The background, wildlife and general items viewed are easy to understand, a good learning experience for the new greenhorn or the seasoned traveler. The boys cover horse care, packing, equipage for your animal, as well as edibles and general traveling tips for the horseman. What to take on the trail, horse security and safety, period horse gear and period packing . 19th century trail food and cooking (had to plug the food - Clark & Sons Mercantile of Colorado furnished their edibles, and that damn Jeff just mentions corn and jerky or jerky and corn), choosing a good camp to survival tips and much more. Lets remember that these brothers of the fur trade are the only ones at this time providing video's of our time frame, this is what is needed to get and keep the interest of new comers. Most of us have been doing this for a period and seem to forget we need to encourage new blood to get involved or our life style will died once more as in the past, lets support Jeff and Wes's efforts in keeping the fur trade alive. Like the AMM and many rendezvous of correctness, and local clubs, that's all there is for trying to carry on the history and hopefully keep Hollywood from screwing up to bad in the future. By the way the weapons, horse gear and equipage really looks good, may be PBS should take note, plus they covered some ground in the making of the film, a 270 mile ride. At the end of the ride Wes's lady told me that Wes's Dad wanted to turn around and ride back, even in his early 60's he's as tuff as ever. Give them a call and thanks for your time. YF&B Buck Conner Baker Party / Colorado dba/ Clark & Sons Mercantile http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ The address for the video is: Rocky Mountain College Productions 22 Bell Canyon Cloudcroft, NM 88317 505-687-3267 Challenge of the Trail Video $19.95 Book $14.95 Dress and Equipage Video $19.95 Book $14.95 Brain-tan Buffalo Hide Video $24.95 Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------=_926216227-15992-1 Content-Type: text/plain; name="926215975.815979" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="926215975.815979" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Brothers,
 
Just finished viewing the latest video done by our guides: Jeff hengesbaugh and Wes Housler titled "Challenge of the Trail" Skills of the Mountain Man 1820-1840.
 
They are improving their acting skills, and the overall effort is well done for a low dollar to no dollar available production, when considered what Hollywood puts out these boys have done very good.  The background, wildlife and general items viewed are easy to understand, a good learning experience for the new greenhorn or the seasoned traveler.
 
The boys cover horse care, packing, equipage for your animal, as well as edibles and general traveling tips for the horseman. What to take on the trail, horse security and safety, period horse gear and period packing .
19th century trail food and cooking (had to plug the food - Clark & Sons Mercantile of Colorado furnished their edibles, and that damn Jeff just mentions corn and jerky or jerky and corn), choosing a good camp to survival tips and much more.
 
Lets remember that these brothers of the fur trade are the only ones at this time providing video's of our time frame, this is what is needed to get and keep the interest of new comers. Most of us have been doing this for a period and seem to forget we need to encourage new blood to get involved or our life style will died once more as in the past, lets support Jeff and Wes's efforts in keeping the fur trade alive.  Like the AMM and many rendezvous of correctness, and local clubs,  that's all there is for trying to carry on the history and hopefully keep Hollywood from screwing up to bad in the future.
 
By the way the weapons, horse gear and equipage really looks good, may be PBS should take note, plus they covered some ground in the making of the film, a 270 mile ride. At the end of the ride Wes's lady told me that Wes's Dad wanted to turn around and ride back, even in his early 60's he's as tuff as ever.
 
Give them a call and thanks for your time.
 
YF&B
Buck Conner
Baker Party / Colorado
dba/ Clark & Sons Mercantile
 
The address for the video is:
 
Rocky Mountain College Productions
22 Bell Canyon
Cloudcroft, NM  88317
505-687-3267
 
Challenge of the Trail
Video $19.95
Book  $14.95
 
Dress and Equipage
Video $19.95
Book  $14.95
 
Brain-tan Buffalo Hide
Video $24.95
 
------------=_926216227-15992-1-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Date: 08 May 1999 22:34:24 -0400 Tommy Edge wrote: > > RR1LA@aol.com wrote: > > > sidney, sounds like your browser has been corrupted by either erroreous > > deletion or a system crash. if you have any way to get to microsoft online, > > download and install internet explorer 5.0; it will update/correct any > > corrupted files, as well as giving you the best version of IE available. if > > you can't get to the web to download it, pick up a copy of almost any > > internet service provider software (aol, earthlink, att, etc.,at a store > > (usually free) and install IE (any version) again, then go get the new > > version. hope this helps, yhs, Barney Fife > > get rid of microsoft download netscape 4.5 had the same problem until I started > using netscape. Got that right! All I.E. is good for is (like Outlook)....."here virus, virus, virus!" But then, that's a MickySoft invitation. 'Better get the latest McAfee. Fred ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Browser Problem WAY OT Date: 09 May 1999 01:30:55 EDT given the warm reception towards microsoft, i thought y'all might get a kick out of this... its too true.. Barn INSTRUCTIONS FOR MICROSOFT'S NEW TV DINNER PRODUCT You must first remove the plastic cover. By doing so you agree to accept and honor Microsoft rights to all TV dinners. You may not give anyone else a bite of your dinner (which would constitute an infringement of Microsoft's rights). You may, however, let others smell and look at your dinner and are encouraged to tell them how good it is. If you have a PC microwave oven, insert the dinner into the oven. Set the oven using these keystrokes: \mstv.dinn.//08.5min@50%heat//. Then enter: ms//start.cook_dindin/yummy\|/yum~yum:-)gohot#cookme. If you have a Mac oven, insert the dinner and press start. The oven will set itself and cook the dinner. If you have a UNIX oven, insert the dinner, enter the ingredients of the dinner (found on the package label), the weight of the dinner, and the desired level of cooking and press start. The oven will calculate the time and heat and cook the dinner exactly to your specification. Be forewarned that Microsoft dinners may crash, in which case your oven must be restarted. This is a simple procedure. Remove the dinner from the oven and enter: ms.good/tryagain\again/again.please. This process may have to be repeated. Try unplugging the microwave and then doing a cold reboot. If this doesn't work, contact your hardware vendor. Many users have reported that the dinner tray is far too big, larger than the dinner itself, having many useless compartments, most of which are empty. These are for future menu items. If the tray is too large to fit in your oven you will need to upgrade your equipment. Dinners are only available from registered outlets, and only the chicken variety is currently produced. If you want another variety, call Microsoft Help and they will explain that you really don't want another variety. Microsoft Chicken is all you really need. Microsoft has disclosed plans to discontinue all smaller versions of their chicken dinners. Future releases will only be in the larger family size. Excess chicken may be stored for future use, but must be saved only in Microsoft approved packaging. Microsoft promises a dessert with every dinner after '98. However, that version has yet to be released. Users have permission to get thrilled in advance. Microsoft dinners may be incompatible with other dinners in the freezer, causing your freezer to self-defrost. This is a feature, not a bug. Your freezer probably should have been defrosted anyway. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Cherokeoil@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: new comer Date: 09 May 1999 02:07:25 EDT I`m a new comer and i`d really like to get into the mountain man thing but have a very limited knowlegde of the time frames and persona deal. Could someone give me a general idea? Is anyone from the Kansas City area if you don`t mind me asking? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: In the white vs. browning vs. blueing Date: 09 May 1999 09:34:13 -0400 turtle part of what you state i truly agree with but there is so many different metal finishes that exist and are called blueing when they are in reality not blue---look at the old winchesters that have a brown color finish this is an original blueing that with age is patenia'ed out or turned to a brown cast or slick finish---remember the old blueing processed was done with acids and chemicals and some affect the metals in different ways with age---suggest you look in the book blueing and browning by ancer and you will find a lot of the oldd formulas that are blue when done initially but with age turn to a brown blue or brown black finish---some are slick type finish and some are truly etched in a lot of the old guns liked the slick finish ---but thru fair wear and tear and age they turn more slick brown than blue because of the chemicals used----manton used a black brown that thru age turns more brown and slick and therefore emphasises the damascus on the barrels anf looks like more of a plumb brown. what hapened is that the coat of chemicals that etches the barrels first to get the damiscus figure kills the blue and it is lost with age for some reason and you wind up with a slick brown with the damascus figure--- I probably havent explained this well but you can contact me offline and i will further explain what i am trying to say if you dont understand---remember blue does not really mean blue color in some cases blueing is a process and browning is a process and they in reality are the same which is to chemically treat or etch the metal to protect it from rust ----in reality blueing or browning are both only controlled rust--- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com On 7 May 1999 09:00:30 -0700 writes: > As a general rule of thumb, what Buck stated is pretty close, but >there are always exceptions to anything as we have seen on the drop >front pants discussion a week or two ago. > I read that the Manton's always blued or color case hardened all >the metal parts, then at a museum in England I find two cased guns >that are a plumb brown, they were originally manufactured in that >finish by John Manton. Have seen documentation stating the same about >Twig (Manton learned his trade from him), same story as the Manton's - >blued or color case hardened all the metal parts, then see a brown >metal pair of matched pistols ! > When we state white is white or black is black, that may not always >be true because somewhere theres a gray one. > Turtle. > >> On Fri, 07 May 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: >> >> Sorry, Caywood and your father are correct; government contracts, >tradegun contracts for the most part stated "white" or "blue" for a >finish. Information on many of the gun builders built guns with metal >"white" as a standard in the early years according to Kit Ravenshear, >around the turn of the 19th century "browning" started to appear. >Usually weapons before that may have looked "browned" or "modeled" in >appearance, but were really just rusted, as starting life in the >white. >> >> I'll sure others will have different opinions, but like Hawk will >tell you, look for good documentation, don't listen to uneducated >guesses. >> >> Buck >> >> > On Thu, 06 May 1999, Barbara Smith wrote: >> > >> > Okay, I felt like opening a can of worms, so I'm tossing this out >to >> > ya'll: >> > >> > My Dad is building me a gun. We're discussing all the minutae. >He's >> > decided to buy a kit from Caywood that sound pretty great. Caywood >tells >> > him that they can supply it in the white or blued. They say that >blued >> > is historically accurate. >> > >> > Now, my running buddies are all over me to take the blueing off my >brand >> > new flintlock and brown it! So, I says to Dad: "I want it in the >white >> > or browned." So Dad, being related to me, proceeds to drown me in >facts >> > about how blued is historically accurate. Help! Dad's a great >guy, and >> > has been shooting muzzleloaders all his life, but he's not "one of >us!" >> > And I just don't trust a guy who won't truss his privates up in a >piece >> > of wool! Any of you guys who've been to the Museum of the Fur >Trade >> > care to tell me what you saw there? >> > >> > Most gratefully yours, >> > Tassee >> >> >> Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account >http://www.uswestmail.net > > >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account >http://www.uswestmail.net > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Challenge of the Trail REVIEW Date: 09 May 1999 10:15:16 -0400 buck what are you getting for the tape---would like to view it myself and would give you my impression---would pay for a copy--- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new comer Date: 09 May 1999 11:03:00 -0400 Kramer the finish man lives there and there are a couple of good clubs in the area---look in muzzle blast for a phone number and POC "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com On Sun, 9 May 1999 02:07:25 EDT Cherokeoil@aol.com writes: >I`m a new comer and i`d really like to get into the mountain man thing >but >have a very limited knowlegde of the time frames and persona deal. >Could >someone give me a general idea? Is anyone from the Kansas City area if >you >don`t mind me asking? > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "john c. funk,jr" Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: VERY Important!!!!! Date: 09 May 1999 08:20:35 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; Sent: Sunday, May 09, 1999 9:43 AM > > Subject: VERY Important!!!!! > > Someone is sending out a very desirable screen-saver; "a Bug's Life - > BUGGLST.ZIP". If you download it, you will lose everything!!! Your hard > drive will crash and someone from the internet will get your screen name > and password! DO NOT DOWNLOAD THIS UNDER ANY CIRCUM- > STANCES!!! It just went circulation on May fifth, as far as we know. > Please > distribute/inform this message. This is a new and very malicious virus > and > not many people know about it yet. This information was announced > on May sixth by Microsoft. Please share it with everyone who might have > access to the Internet. Also do not open or even look at any mail that > says "RETURNED OR UNABLE TO DELIVER". This virus will attach > itself to your computer components and render them useless. Immediately > delete mail items that say this. AOL has also announced that this is a > very > dangerous virus and that there is NO remedy for it at this time. > > PASS THIS ON !!! > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: MtMan-List: Mt Man_List Deringer Date: 09 May 1999 10:14:29 -0700 (PDT) Mr. Mullen:( and others on the list) Thanks for your help with Treaties. I, like you, think Deringer's records are where I need to look.(I thought the treaty end of the search would justify our reason for needing to find Deringers records) Douglas Jones(AMM) said he found a little on Deringer and this contract several years ago. But , lost or missed placed, the info. He is wanting to develope a "persona" of an early S.W. Trader/Trapper(about 1830) In Grant Forman's "Pioneer Days in the Early Southwest"(A good book) University of Nebraska Press. There was plenty of trading/trapping in our area(South Central Oklahoma) and all around. "Doug has a Deringer (reproduction) that he might have traded from one of the Indians in the area, to justify his possesion of the rifle." In his presentations of "Living History" at schools, he wants to have a little Indian history of the area. Thus " a new CAN of worms" Any help in tracing down Deringers records? Let's go fishing!!!! === George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > 1005 W.Donkey Ln. Marlow Ok. 73055 Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mt Man_List Deringer Date: 09 May 1999 13:41:29 -0500 You're welcome. Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Sunday, May 09, 1999 12:14 PM > Mr. Mullen:( and others on the list) > Thanks for your help with Treaties. > I, like you, think Deringer's records are where I need to look.(I > thought the treaty end of the search would justify our reason for > needing to find Deringers records) > Douglas Jones(AMM) said he found a little on Deringer > and this contract several years ago. But , lost or missed placed, the > info. He is wanting to develope a "persona" of an early S.W. > Trader/Trapper(about 1830) > In Grant Forman's "Pioneer Days in the Early Southwest"(A good book) > University of Nebraska Press. > There was plenty of trading/trapping in our area(South Central > Oklahoma) and all around. > "Doug has a Deringer (reproduction) that he might have > traded from one of the Indians in the area, to justify > his possesion of the rifle." In his presentations of "Living History" > at schools, he wants to have a little Indian history of the area. > Thus " a new CAN of worms" > =20 >=20 > Any help in tracing down Deringers records? > Let's go fishing!!!! >=20 > =3D=3D=3D > George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > 1005 = W.Donkey Ln. Marlow Ok. 73055 > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com >=20 >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: VERY Important!!!!! Date: 09 May 1999 15:04:58 -0400 "john c. funk,jr" wrote: [snip] > > > > Subject: VERY Important!!!!! > > > > Someone is sending out a very desirable screen-saver; "a Bug's Life - > > BUGGLST.ZIP". If you download it, you will lose everything!!! Your hard > > drive will crash and someone from the internet will get your screen name > > and password! DO NOT DOWNLOAD THIS UNDER ANY CIRCUM- > > STANCES!!! It just went circulation on May fifth, as far as we know. This is another HOAX!! Fred ----/ / _ Fred A. Miller ---/ / (_)__ __ ____ __ Systems Administrator --/ /__/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ / Cornell Univ. Press Services -/____/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\ fm@cupserv.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: VERY Important!!!!! Date: 09 May 1999 12:18:46 -0700 John, Many many times you will see these warnings coming through your e-mail. As I advise all my friends, please check them out before sending these all across the internet world. This is a hoax. Please see: http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/hoax.html If you have good virus protection software and keep it updated you have very little to worry about. If you get a warning from someone, go to Symantec's or McAfee's web site and check it out, I'll bet my best Hawken, 99 out of 100 are hoaxes. Hope this helps... Medicine Bear "john c. funk,jr" wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: John C. Funk > To: ; ; ; > ; ; ; > ; ; ; > ; ; ; > ; ; ; > ; ; ; > ; ; ; > ; ; ; > ; ; ; > ; ; ; > ; > Sent: Sunday, May 09, 1999 9:43 AM > Subject: VERY Important!!!!! > > > > > Subject: VERY Important!!!!! > > > > Someone is sending out a very desirable screen-saver; "a Bug's Life - > > BUGGLST.ZIP". If you download it, you will lose everything!!! Your hard > > drive will crash and someone from the internet will get your screen name > > and password! DO NOT DOWNLOAD THIS UNDER ANY CIRCUM- > > STANCES!!! It just went circulation on May fifth, as far as we know. > > Please > > distribute/inform this message. This is a new and very malicious virus > > and > > not many people know about it yet. This information was announced > > on May sixth by Microsoft. Please share it with everyone who might have > > access to the Internet. Also do not open or even look at any mail that > > says "RETURNED OR UNABLE TO DELIVER". This virus will attach > > itself to your computer components and render them useless. Immediately > > delete mail items that say this. AOL has also announced that this is a > > very > > dangerous virus and that there is NO remedy for it at this time. > > > > PASS THIS ON !!! > > ___________________________________________________________________ > > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: VERY Important!!!!! Date: 09 May 1999 14:47:40 -0500 Frank Thanks for the address for the virus hoaxes. I am no expert about = viruses or hoaxes, but every one (read "100%) of those whom I believe to = be experts have assured me that no damage can be caused by opening any = e-mail message...including messages with actual viruses embedded in = them. Damage can occur only if you install the infected message into = your computer memory. Do you concur with that opinion? Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Sunday, May 09, 1999 2:18 PM > John, >=20 > Many many times you will see these warnings coming through your = e-mail. As I > advise all my friends, please check them out before sending these all = across > the internet world. This is a hoax. > Please see: http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/hoax.html > If you have good virus protection software and keep it updated you = have very > little to worry about. If you get a warning from someone, go to = Symantec's or > McAfee's web site and check it out, I'll bet my best Hawken, 99 out of = 100 are > hoaxes. > Hope this helps... >=20 > Medicine Bear >=20 > "john c. funk,jr" wrote: >=20 > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: John C. Funk > > To: ; ; ; > > ; ; ; > > ; ; ; > > ; ; ; > > ; ; = ; > > ; ; ; > > ; ; ; > > ; ; ; > > ; ; ; > > ; ; = ; > > ; > > Sent: Sunday, May 09, 1999 9:43 AM > > Subject: VERY Important!!!!! > > > > > > > > Subject: VERY Important!!!!! > > > > > > Someone is sending out a very desirable screen-saver; "a Bug's = Life - > > > BUGGLST.ZIP". If you download it, you will lose everything!!! Your = hard > > > drive will crash and someone from the internet will get your = screen name > > > and password! DO NOT DOWNLOAD THIS UNDER ANY CIRCUM- > > > STANCES!!! It just went circulation on May fifth, as far as we = know. > > > Please > > > distribute/inform this message. This is a new and very malicious = virus > > > and > > > not many people know about it yet. This information was announced > > > on May sixth by Microsoft. Please share it with everyone who = might have > > > access to the Internet. Also do not open or even look at any mail = that > > > says "RETURNED OR UNABLE TO DELIVER". This virus will attach > > > itself to your computer components and render them useless. = Immediately > > > delete mail items that say this. AOL has also announced that this = is a > > > very > > > dangerous virus and that there is NO remedy for it at this time. > > > > > > PASS THIS ON !!! > > > = ___________________________________________________________________ > > > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > > > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at = http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > > > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > > >=20 >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: EmmaPeel2@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Thanks for the warnings...and one caveat! Date: 09 May 1999 15:49:35 EDT Yes, we are bombarded daily with hoax scares...however the last "hoax" my son received wiped out his hard drive! So unless it's an overtly ridiculous hoax (like being asked to add your name to a list of people urging the government to support a puppy for every poor kid in Kosovo) I don't mind being forwarned :) But thank you for noting that the MAJORITY of virus alerts are indeed hoaxes! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Fred A. Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: VERY Important!!!!! Date: 09 May 1999 16:00:41 -0400 Ratcliff wrote: > > Frank > Thanks for the address for the virus hoaxes. I am no expert about viruses or hoaxes, but every one (read "100%) of those whom I believe to be experts have assured me that no damage can be caused by opening any e-mail message...including messages with actual viruses embedded in them. Damage can occur only if you install the infected message into your computer memory. Do you concur with that opinion? This is correct.....presently. Just reading the e-mail message alone will not infect your system, however, if you open the attached file, then you could be infected. This is less true of MAC systems, and MUCH less for a PC running Linux, which is a better OS anyway. Fred ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: VERY Important!!!!! Date: 09 May 1999 13:08:04 -0700 Lanny, I'm no expert either. Sounds right to me. I think "attached files" are the culprit. For those who think it's a harmless event to send "false" warnings, there is a cost to us all! The problem with forwarding "hoax" warnings is that the exponential glutting of the bandwidth is something we can do without. If everyone on this list alone forwarded this warning to everyone in their address book and they intern their's...well, you can only imagine the thousands if not hundreds of thousands of needless messages clogging up the internet from only one warning. I've had in the neighborhood of 30-40 "warnings" this year so far. All hoaxes and it took only 1 1/2 - 2 minutes to check it out. The people who forward warnings are sincere and concerned for us all and that is appreciated. I'm sure not upset nor do I blame anyone. Just passing on what I have learned. We all have a lot to learn about computers and the Internet. I still think it's all done with smoke and mirrors! Lest I get chewed out for being "off topic" I'd better not say anymore on this one. Medicine Bear Ratcliff wrote: > Frank > Thanks for the address for the virus hoaxes. I am no expert about viruses or hoaxes, but every one (read "100%) of those whom I believe to be experts have assured me that no damage can be caused by opening any e-mail message...including messages with actual viruses embedded in them. Damage can occur only if you install the infected message into your computer memory. Do you concur with that opinion? > Lanney Ratcliff > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Frank > To: > Sent: Sunday, May 09, 1999 2:18 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: VERY Important!!!!! > > > John, > > > > Many many times you will see these warnings coming through your e-mail. As I > > advise all my friends, please check them out before sending these all across > > the internet world. This is a hoax. > > Please see: http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/hoax.html > > If you have good virus protection software and keep it updated you have very > > little to worry about. If you get a warning from someone, go to Symantec's or > > McAfee's web site and check it out, I'll bet my best Hawken, 99 out of 100 are > > hoaxes. > > Hope this helps... > > > > Medicine Bear > > > > "john c. funk,jr" wrote: > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: John C. Funk > > > To: ; ; ; > > > ; ; ; > > > ; ; ; > > > ; ; ; > > > ; ; ; > > > ; ; ; > > > ; ; ; > > > ; ; ; > > > ; ; ; > > > ; ; ; > > > ; > > > Sent: Sunday, May 09, 1999 9:43 AM > > > Subject: VERY Important!!!!! > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: VERY Important!!!!! > > > > > > > > Someone is sending out a very desirable screen-saver; "a Bug's Life - > > > > BUGGLST.ZIP". If you download it, you will lose everything!!! Your hard > > > > drive will crash and someone from the internet will get your screen name > > > > and password! DO NOT DOWNLOAD THIS UNDER ANY CIRCUM- > > > > STANCES!!! It just went circulation on May fifth, as far as we know. > > > > Please > > > > distribute/inform this message. This is a new and very malicious virus > > > > and > > > > not many people know about it yet. This information was announced > > > > on May sixth by Microsoft. Please share it with everyone who might have > > > > access to the Internet. Also do not open or even look at any mail that > > > > says "RETURNED OR UNABLE TO DELIVER". This virus will attach > > > > itself to your computer components and render them useless. Immediately > > > > delete mail items that say this. AOL has also announced that this is a > > > > very > > > > dangerous virus and that there is NO remedy for it at this time. > > > > > > > > PASS THIS ON !!! > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > > > > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > > > > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > > > > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT - Internet Hoaxes Date: 09 May 1999 18:04:19 EDT AMEN to medicine bear,,, also, about those damn annoying warnings: symantec's site is about the best, and a number of sites that expose hoaxes get stuff at different times, and sometimes even the same hoax may be listed under a different name (i.e. the 'melissa virus was also mlista.exe, apparently its actual file name). Since these sites accumulate info at different rates, sometimes its good to have more than one source to check things out. here's a couple of additional links: This Is From MB's prev post: SARC - Virus Hoaxes This is a clearing house: CIAC Internet Hoaxes This is great reading too: Urban Legends and Folklore Hope this helps us all to shut down the myths and hoaxes thrown about the internet. Barney Fife "Fortitude In Distress" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT Internet Myths and Hoaxes Date: 09 May 1999 18:37:11 EDT Here's what the so-called experts say (zd.net, PC Magazine, etc): you cannot get a virus, trojan horse, etc, from simply READING e-mail. But, if you DOWNLOAD ANYTHING, whether intentional by you, OR FORCED without your knowledge by a web site for instance, things can happen. The first line of defense is the number one rule: DON'T DOWNLOAD ANYTHING UNLESS YOU KNOW AND TRUST THE SOURCE. The 2nd line of defense (especially important if you connect to the internet) is to have an ANTI-VIRUS PROGRAM AND KEEP IT'S VIRUS DEFINITION FILES UP TO DATE. With the advent of cookies, java applets, macro viruses and other crap none of us will ever understand, one thing is for sure: your system is open to attack anytime you insert a diskette, cd-rom or connect to another computer. But its very easy to protect yourself. Barney ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Laurel huber Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new comer Date: 09 May 1999 18:00:28 -0700 --------------2D3DC8EA596EC79F02D711CD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you're interested in becoming a buckskinner and coming out to Rendezvous' and the like, The Book of Buckskinning series by Muzzelloader Magazine is a good place to start. Interesting, easy to read articles, tips on clothing and plans for building gear are just some of the information within. Start with the first two volumes and work your way through them until you're contributing material for the next volume. If you want to acquire some knowlegde of the Fur Trade in painless form, I always recommend the following paperback book to the beginner: Give Your Heart to the Hawks: A Tribute to the Mountain Men by Winfred Blevins Tamarack Books, 340 pages. $16.95 Through Amazon.com if your local bookseller can't supply you. This is the book that got me off my butt and into the mountains. I read a great deal of history texts now but I keep this volume close when my interest wanes. A great overview in a very readable form. "Shoots-the-Prairie" Larry Huber Cherokeoil@aol.com wrote: > I`m a new comer and i`d really like to get into the mountain man thing but > have a very limited knowlegde of the time frames and persona deal. Could > someone give me a general idea? Is anyone from the Kansas City area if you > don`t mind me asking? --------------2D3DC8EA596EC79F02D711CD Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If  you're interested in becoming a buckskinner and coming out to Rendezvous' and the like, The Book of Buckskinning series by Muzzelloader Magazine is a good place to start.  Interesting, easy to read articles, tips on clothing and plans for building gear are just some of the information within.  Start with the first two volumes and work your way through them until you're contributing material for the next volume.
If you want to acquire some knowlegde of the Fur Trade in painless form, I always recommend the following paperback book to the beginner:
Give Your Heart to the Hawks: A Tribute to the Mountain Men by Winfred Blevins
Tamarack Books, 340 pages.  $16.95 Through Amazon.com if your local bookseller can't supply you.
This is the book that got me off my butt and into the mountains.  I read a great deal of history texts now but I keep this volume close when my interest wanes.  A great overview in a very readable form.

"Shoots-the-Prairie" Larry Huber
 

Cherokeoil@aol.com wrote:

I`m a new comer and i`d really like to get into the mountain man thing but
have a very limited knowlegde of the time frames and persona deal. Could
someone give me a general idea? Is anyone from the Kansas City area if you
don`t mind me asking?
  --------------2D3DC8EA596EC79F02D711CD-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Laurel huber Subject: Re: MtMan-List: new comer Date: 09 May 1999 18:00:28 -0700 --------------2D3DC8EA596EC79F02D711CD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you're interested in becoming a buckskinner and coming out to Rendezvous' and the like, The Book of Buckskinning series by Muzzelloader Magazine is a good place to start. Interesting, easy to read articles, tips on clothing and plans for building gear are just some of the information within. Start with the first two volumes and work your way through them until you're contributing material for the next volume. If you want to acquire some knowlegde of the Fur Trade in painless form, I always recommend the following paperback book to the beginner: Give Your Heart to the Hawks: A Tribute to the Mountain Men by Winfred Blevins Tamarack Books, 340 pages. $16.95 Through Amazon.com if your local bookseller can't supply you. This is the book that got me off my butt and into the mountains. I read a great deal of history texts now but I keep this volume close when my interest wanes. A great overview in a very readable form. "Shoots-the-Prairie" Larry Huber Cherokeoil@aol.com wrote: > I`m a new comer and i`d really like to get into the mountain man thing but > have a very limited knowlegde of the time frames and persona deal. Could > someone give me a general idea? Is anyone from the Kansas City area if you > don`t mind me asking? --------------2D3DC8EA596EC79F02D711CD Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If  you're interested in becoming a buckskinner and coming out to Rendezvous' and the like, The Book of Buckskinning series by Muzzelloader Magazine is a good place to start.  Interesting, easy to read articles, tips on clothing and plans for building gear are just some of the information within.  Start with the first two volumes and work your way through them until you're contributing material for the next volume.
If you want to acquire some knowlegde of the Fur Trade in painless form, I always recommend the following paperback book to the beginner:
Give Your Heart to the Hawks: A Tribute to the Mountain Men by Winfred Blevins
Tamarack Books, 340 pages.  $16.95 Through Amazon.com if your local bookseller can't supply you.
This is the book that got me off my butt and into the mountains.  I read a great deal of history texts now but I keep this volume close when my interest wanes.  A great overview in a very readable form.

"Shoots-the-Prairie" Larry Huber
 

Cherokeoil@aol.com wrote:

I`m a new comer and i`d really like to get into the mountain man thing but
have a very limited knowlegde of the time frames and persona deal. Could
someone give me a general idea? Is anyone from the Kansas City area if you
don`t mind me asking?
  --------------2D3DC8EA596EC79F02D711CD-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: Yep Crow (not Blackfeet) Date: 09 May 1999 21:17:16 -0400 (EDT) --WebTV-Mail-1566975229-11794 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit --WebTV-Mail-1566975229-11794 Content-Description: Video snapshot Content-Disposition: Inline; filename=snapshot.jpg Content-Type: Image/JPEG; Name=snapshot.jpg Content-Transfer-Encoding: Base64 /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAgEASABIAAD//gAHV2ViVFb/wAARCAFYAcADACEAAREBAhEB/9sAQwAMCAkL CQgMCwoLDg0MDxMgFBMRERMnHB0XIC4pMTAtKS0sMzlKPjM2RjcsLUBXQUZMTlJTUjE9WmFaUGBK UVJP/9sAQwENDg4TEBMlFBQlTzUtNU9PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09P T09PT09PT09PT09PT09P/8QAHwAAAQUBAQEBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAECAwQFBgcICQoL/8QAtRAAAgED AwIEAwUFBAQAAAF9AQIDAAQRBRIhMUEGE1FhByJxFDKBkaEII0KxwRVS0fAkM2JyggkKFhcYGRol 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lohbgVIJiXKY61ReqBkZFApALTh2pgPApCualjQ0rgdaaadihuD60oGaLEjwtKFx1pMBaXFJIpCU mKoBQMU4GpaC4oz60jdKkCMjJ61JHlTweatCNK0vkiUB0LH61di1TkeWXX2FXuSzasdTkZgshZvc 4rorKYNgcc0rE6mrG2akzTGf/9k= --WebTV-Mail-1566975229-11794-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "john c. funk,jr" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mt Man_List Deringer Date: 09 May 1999 18:22:53 -0700 Mr. Noe, Charles Hanson's, "The NORTHWEST GUN" has several notations and a couple of pictures of Deringer's productions. John Funk ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, May 09, 1999 10:14 AM > Mr. Mullen:( and others on the list) > Thanks for your help with Treaties. > I, like you, think Deringer's records are where I need to look.(I > thought the treaty end of the search would justify our reason for > needing to find Deringers records) > Douglas Jones(AMM) said he found a little on Deringer > and this contract several years ago. But , lost or missed placed, the > info. He is wanting to develope a "persona" of an early S.W. > Trader/Trapper(about 1830) > In Grant Forman's "Pioneer Days in the Early Southwest"(A good book) > University of Nebraska Press. > There was plenty of trading/trapping in our area(South Central > Oklahoma) and all around. > "Doug has a Deringer (reproduction) that he might have > traded from one of the Indians in the area, to justify > his possesion of the rifle." In his presentations of "Living History" > at schools, he wants to have a little Indian history of the area. > Thus " a new CAN of worms" > > > Any help in tracing down Deringers records? > Let's go fishing!!!! > > === > George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > 1005 W.Donkey Ln. Marlow Ok. 73055 > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "john c. funk,jr" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mt Man_List Deringer Date: 09 May 1999 18:22:53 -0700 Mr. Noe, Charles Hanson's, "The NORTHWEST GUN" has several notations and a couple of pictures of Deringer's productions. John Funk ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, May 09, 1999 10:14 AM > Mr. Mullen:( and others on the list) > Thanks for your help with Treaties. > I, like you, think Deringer's records are where I need to look.(I > thought the treaty end of the search would justify our reason for > needing to find Deringers records) > Douglas Jones(AMM) said he found a little on Deringer > and this contract several years ago. But , lost or missed placed, the > info. He is wanting to develope a "persona" of an early S.W. > Trader/Trapper(about 1830) > In Grant Forman's "Pioneer Days in the Early Southwest"(A good book) > University of Nebraska Press. > There was plenty of trading/trapping in our area(South Central > Oklahoma) and all around. > "Doug has a Deringer (reproduction) that he might have > traded from one of the Indians in the area, to justify > his possesion of the rifle." In his presentations of "Living History" > at schools, he wants to have a little Indian history of the area. > Thus " a new CAN of worms" > > > Any help in tracing down Deringers records? > Let's go fishing!!!! > > === > George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > 1005 W.Donkey Ln. Marlow Ok. 73055 > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "john c. funk,jr" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: VERY Important!!!!! Date: 09 May 1999 18:34:12 -0700 I will consider myself duly chastised and will refrain from forwarding any additional "warnings". My apologies. John Funk ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, May 09, 1999 1:08 PM > Lanny, > > I'm no expert either. Sounds right to me. I think "attached files" are the culprit. > For those who think it's a harmless event to send "false" warnings, there is a cost to us all! > The problem with forwarding "hoax" warnings is that the exponential glutting of the bandwidth is something we can do without. If everyone on this list alone forwarded this warning to everyone in their address book and they intern their's...well, you can only imagine the thousands if not hundreds of thousands of needless messages clogging up the internet from only one warning. I've had in the neighborhood > of 30-40 "warnings" this year so far. All hoaxes and it took only 1 1/2 - 2 minutes to check it out. The people who forward warnings are sincere and concerned for us all and that is appreciated. I'm sure not upset nor do I blame anyone. Just passing on what I have learned. We all have a lot to learn about computers and the Internet. I still think it's all done with smoke and mirrors! > Lest I get chewed out for being "off topic" I'd better not say anymore on this one. > > Medicine Bear > > > Ratcliff wrote: > > > Frank > > Thanks for the address for the virus hoaxes. I am no expert about viruses or hoaxes, but every one (read "100%) of those whom I believe to be experts have assured me that no damage can be caused by opening any e-mail message...including messages with actual viruses embedded in them. Damage can occur only if you install the infected message into your computer memory. Do you concur with that opinion? > > Lanney Ratcliff > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Frank > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, May 09, 1999 2:18 PM > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: VERY Important!!!!! > > > > > John, > > > > > > Many many times you will see these warnings coming through your e-mail. As I > > > advise all my friends, please check them out before sending these all across > > > the internet world. This is a hoax. > > > Please see: http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/hoax.html > > > If you have good virus protection software and keep it updated you have very > > > little to worry about. If you get a warning from someone, go to Symantec's or > > > McAfee's web site and check it out, I'll bet my best Hawken, 99 out of 100 are > > > hoaxes. > > > Hope this helps... > > > > > > Medicine Bear > > > > > > "john c. funk,jr" wrote: > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: John C. Funk > > > > To: ; ; ; > > > > ; ; ; > > > > ; ; ; > > > > ; ; ; > > > > ; ; ; > > > > ; ; ; > > > > ; ; ; > > > > ; ; ; > > > > ; ; ; > > > > ; ; ; > > > > ; > > > > Sent: Sunday, May 09, 1999 9:43 AM > > > > Subject: VERY Important!!!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: VERY Important!!!!! > > > > > > > > > > Someone is sending out a very desirable screen-saver; "a Bug's Life - > > > > > BUGGLST.ZIP". If you download it, you will lose everything!!! Your hard > > > > > drive will crash and someone from the internet will get your screen name > > > > > and password! DO NOT DOWNLOAD THIS UNDER ANY CIRCUM- > > > > > STANCES!!! It just went circulation on May fifth, as far as we know. > > > > > Please > > > > > distribute/inform this message. This is a new and very malicious virus > > > > > and > > > > > not many people know about it yet. This information was announced > > > > > on May sixth by Microsoft. Please share it with everyone who might have > > > > > access to the Internet. Also do not open or even look at any mail that > > > > > says "RETURNED OR UNABLE TO DELIVER". This virus will attach > > > > > itself to your computer components and render them useless. Immediately > > > > > delete mail items that say this. AOL has also announced that this is a > > > > > very > > > > > dangerous virus and that there is NO remedy for it at this time. > > > > > > > > > > PASS THIS ON !!! > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > > > > > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > > > > > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > > > > > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: VERY Important!!!!! Date: 09 May 1999 19:28:19 -0700 Naw...not chastised! Just informed! We all jes sharin' stuff! I'd never chastise a feller what can shoot center! :o) MB "john c. funk,jr" wrote: > I will consider myself duly chastised and will refrain from forwarding any > additional "warnings". My apologies. > John Funk > > - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Challenge of the Trail REVIEW Date: 09 May 1999 19:32:14 -0700 Hawk, I don't sell the tapes, as far as I know only the Rocky Mountain College Productions are the only ones that handle them. Other than wanting to see what they did on edibles (which I feel could have been lengthened to do something like Baker did in his last tape). Having furnished the edibles for both these groups - Baker and Housler, I think Mark did the better job in that area. But for the rest of Jeff and Wes's work on this tape they cover a lot of information with the horse, camp and equipage, I feel it's a little crude in places, but hell their not professionals either and this is only #2, Mark's first three were equal to this one. Yes I feel it was worth while for what I wanted to get out of it, others may feel different. I'll watch my copy many times just because I happen to get a kick out of these two old friends. Buck ___________________________ > On Sun, 09 May 1999, Michael Pierce wrote: > > buck what are you getting for the tape---would like to view it myself and > would give you my impression---would pay for a copy--- > "Hawk" > Michael Pierce > 854 Glenfield Dr. > Palm Harbor, florida 34684 > 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 22:59:02 -0500 Date: 09 May 1999 22:00:10 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00D8_01BE9A6F.87FFFAE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a query for those with medical expertise. I am bothered by = altitude sickness above 8000 or 8500 feet.....my town is elev. 659 = feet...and I have been told by several people that altitude sickness can = be controlled by drinking lots of water...that the water not only keeps = you hydrated properly, but it also supplies the body with some oxygen. = "You gotta drink your oxygen." I know I feel better at high altitude = when I drink lots of water. Why? Lanney Ratcliff ------=_NextPart_000_00D8_01BE9A6F.87FFFAE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have a query for those with medical expertise.  I am = bothered by=20 altitude sickness above 8000 or 8500 feet.....my town is elev. 659 = feet...and I=20 have been told by several people that altitude sickness can be = controlled by=20 drinking lots of water...that the water not only keeps you hydrated = properly,=20 but it also supplies the body with some oxygen.  "You gotta drink = your=20 oxygen."  I know I feel better at high altitude when I drink lots = of=20 water.  Why?
Lanney Ratcliff
------=_NextPart_000_00D8_01BE9A6F.87FFFAE0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 22:59:02 -0500 Date: 09 May 1999 21:50:40 -0700 --------------9EADDD385E8517A41AF70CA2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ratcliff wrote: > I have a query for those with medical expertise. I am bothered by > altitude sickness above 8000 or 8500 feet.....my town is elev. 659 > feet...and I have been told by several people that altitude sickness > can be controlled by drinking lots of water...that the water not only > keeps you hydrated properly, but it also supplies the body with some > oxygen. "You gotta drink your oxygen." I know I feel better at high > altitude when I drink lots of water. Why?Lanney Ratcliff > > Lanney, > > I won't claim to have any real medical experience other than what I > got in EMT training in the Fire Dept. and my exposure to the > Paramedics on the Dept that came after us EMT's but I will offer the > following until someone with more knowledge comes along. > > Your body performs all funtions better when properly hydrated. Blood > flows where it needs to be more easily, metabolism is more efficient, > waste materials are eliminated more efficiently, etc. > > So dehydration all by itself don't do you no good. When we camp or > trek, one of the biggest problems is getting enough pure liquids into > our bodies. Water is heavy to pack and when we mix it with tea, coffee > and alcohol we dehidrate ourselves even more because those "polutants" > are diaretic in effect on our systems, (makes us pee a lot). > > One trick that we've been trying with some success in recent years > where we go from 500' in Eastern Wa. to 8000'+ in the Rockies is to > take an Alka-seltser tablet each day for a week or two before the > trip, along with lots of water. It seems to help with the sudden > change in altitude. And don't ask me why it works, it just does. Come > to think of it, plain asprin might work too, thins the blood! In fact > it is fairly common practice to take a half an asprin to reduce your > vulnrability to sudden heart attack and stroke these days. Keeps the > blood flowing and reduces infamation and if I ever have the symptoms > of a stroke or heart attack, the second thing I will do after first > dialing 911 will be to pop an asprin. Basic preventitive medicine. > Don't wait until you are at 8000' before you start doing something > about it. Hope I'm not too far off the mark but that's what I know > about it. I remain...... > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' --------------9EADDD385E8517A41AF70CA2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  

Ratcliff wrote:

  I have a query for those with medical expertise.  I am bothered by altitude sickness above 8000 or 8500 feet.....my town is elev. 659 feet...and I have been told by several people that altitude sickness can be controlled by drinking lots of water...that the water not only keeps you hydrated properly, but it also supplies the body with some oxygen.  "You gotta drink your oxygen."  I know I feel better at high altitude when I drink lots of water.  Why?Lanney Ratcliff

Lanney,

I won't claim to have any real medical experience other than what I got in EMT training in the Fire Dept. and my exposure to the Paramedics on the Dept that came after us EMT's but I will offer the following until someone with more knowledge comes along.

Your body performs all funtions better when properly hydrated. Blood flows where it needs to be more easily, metabolism is more efficient, waste materials are eliminated more efficiently, etc.

So dehydration all by itself don't do you no good. When we camp or trek, one of the biggest problems is getting enough pure liquids into our bodies. Water is heavy to pack and when we mix it with tea, coffee and alcohol we dehidrate ourselves even more because those "polutants" are diaretic in effect on our systems, (makes us pee a lot).

One trick that we've been trying with some success in recent years where we go from 500' in Eastern Wa. to 8000'+ in the Rockies is to take an Alka-seltser tablet each day for a week or two before the trip, along with lots of water. It seems to help with the sudden change in altitude. And don't ask me why it works, it just does. Come to think of it, plain asprin might work too, thins the blood! In fact it is fairly common practice to take a half an asprin to reduce your vulnrability to sudden heart attack and stroke these days. Keeps the blood flowing and reduces infamation and if I ever have the symptoms of a stroke or heart attack, the second thing I will do after first dialing 911 will be to pop an asprin. Basic preventitive medicine. Don't wait until you are at 8000' before you start doing something about it. Hope I'm not too far off the mark but that's what I know about it. I remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

  --------------9EADDD385E8517A41AF70CA2-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: EmmaPeel2@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 22:59:02 -0500 Altitude Date: 10 May 1999 01:51:08 EDT Water is needed at high altitudes because you breath faster (trying to get more oxygen) which prompts the body to dehydrates faster. Lack of body fluid cause dizziness and headaches - which are also symptoms of high altitude sickness. In severe cases you can have brain swelling - nasty business. Best to drink a liter or so of water..trek slowly, and listen to your body. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jennifer McEntire Subject: MtMan-List: Maps again Date: 10 May 1999 09:50:01 -0400 As a researcher/writer for a museum exhibit design firm, I am seeking to be as accurate as possible in the details I am developing for a museum which will include an aspect of Mountain Man and Native American cultures. I was told that the users of this list would be able to help me with some fact-finding. Earlier, I mailed you about the materials used by MM for mapmaking. However, I think my message got caught up in the rantings of a dissatisfied list member who seemed to be very closed minded about this great communication you've got going. So I'll try again... We are reconstructing a map which should look as though it was constructed by either Native Americans or Mountain Men, and are trying to decide the materials to use. Buckskin, paper, bark, etc. Any advice? Here's your big chance to show up the Harvard Map Collection, who didn't know much about this topic. Thank you so much! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: "Polycythemia" mountain sickness Date: 10 May 1999 07:20:39 -0700 Lanney, Maybe you need to sit down and have a talk with someone about your "atitude", can see having problems when standing, and being in a higher altitude (height problem). Now that I said that and will probably pay for it at the Nationals along with everthing else we have made fun of with the "Spud Gun". "Polycythemia" is the medical name for your problem, has to do with red cell count in the blood when changing your surrounding (going higher or lower in altitude). I read that people that live in high altitudes (above 10,000 ft.) have an increased number of red cells because the amount of oxygen in the air at this altitude is decreased, therefore the body reacts with increased red cell production. Those people move to a lower altitude, their polycythemia disappears, over a period of time. So people going to high altitude not use to it may bring on the so-called "mountain sickness" do to having lower blood flow or red cells, usually by inadequate oxygen from the thin air. I have heard that to avoid the "sickness" approach the higher altitudes slowly for your body to adapt itself, that's hard to do when traveling on land, in a plane its done with pressure adjustments. Drink lots of liquids, as mentioned water is the best, booze will seem to take less than usual for the same effect, anyone with health problems, over weight, etc. should see their doctor before changing to extreme altitudes as a safety measure. There are medicines available to help relieve the problem, can't remember what they were now, used to take in out of state hunters when living in Masonville CO and ones from lower to sea level altitudes did have problems, from headaches to sick in their stomach to not being able to walk any distances. Check your doctor Lanney, I know there are pills available that seem to help. YF&B Buck Conner Baker Party / Colorado -----Original Message----- Cc: History List I have a query for those with medical expertise. I am bothered by altitude sickness above 8000 or 8500 feet.....my town is elev. 659 feet...and I have been told by several people that altitude sickness can be controlled by drinking lots of water...that the water not only keeps you hydrated properly, but it also supplies the body with some oxygen. "You gotta drink your oxygen." I know I feel better at high altitude when I drink lots of water. Why? Lanney Ratcliff Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kurt Westenbarger" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 22:59:02 -0500 Date: 10 May 1999 08:19:24 -0700 --------------487D0EE9AC1970FEF02FE428 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Very Good info Roger. I live in West Yellowstone MT el. 6666ft (easy to remember) and teach a bunch of Elderhostels up here. That is: classes for people over 55 years. I get several people a year who develop altitude problems at 6666ft even though much of the stuff you read about the illness claim there's no problem below 8000ft. I send my people to Bozeman (4000ft) and they recover very nicely. Also - as people get older thier tolerance to altitude stress seems to lessen so someone who had problems at 8000ft two years ago may have difficulty at 6000ft today. There's no doubt that drinking lots of water and staying away from diuretics such as caffeen and alcohol (coffee, beer, etc - bummer) helps. Roger Lahti wrote: > > > Ratcliff wrote: > >> I have a query for those with medical expertise. I am bothered by >> altitude sickness above 8000 or 8500 feet.....my town is elev. 659 >> feet...and I have been told by several people that altitude sickness >> can be controlled by drinking lots of water...that the water not >> only keeps you hydrated properly, but it also supplies the body with >> some oxygen. "You gotta drink your oxygen." I know I feel better >> at high altitude when I drink lots of water. Why?Lanney Ratcliff >> >> Lanney, >> >> I won't claim to have any real medical experience other than what I >> got in EMT training in the Fire Dept. and my exposure to the >> Paramedics on the Dept that came after us EMT's but I will offer the >> following until someone with more knowledge comes along. >> >> Your body performs all funtions better when properly hydrated. Blood >> flows where it needs to be more easily, metabolism is more >> efficient, waste materials are eliminated more efficiently, etc. >> >> So dehydration all by itself don't do you no good. When we camp or >> trek, one of the biggest problems is getting enough pure liquids >> into our bodies. Water is heavy to pack and when we mix it with tea, >> coffee and alcohol we dehidrate ourselves even more because those >> "polutants" are diaretic in effect on our systems, (makes us pee a >> lot). >> >> One trick that we've been trying with some success in recent years >> where we go from 500' in Eastern Wa. to 8000'+ in the Rockies is to >> take an Alka-seltser tablet each day for a week or two before the >> trip, along with lots of water. It seems to help with the sudden >> change in altitude. And don't ask me why it works, it just does. >> Come to think of it, plain asprin might work too, thins the blood! >> In fact it is fairly common practice to take a half an asprin to >> reduce your vulnrability to sudden heart attack and stroke these >> days. Keeps the blood flowing and reduces infamation and if I ever >> have the symptoms of a stroke or heart attack, the second thing I >> will do after first dialing 911 will be to pop an asprin. Basic >> preventitive medicine. Don't wait until you are at 8000' before you >> start doing something about it. Hope I'm not too far off the mark >> but that's what I know about it. I remain...... >> >> YMOS >> Capt. Lahti' > --------------487D0EE9AC1970FEF02FE428 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  
Very Good info Roger.  I live in West Yellowstone MT el. 6666ft (easy to remember) and teach a bunch of Elderhostels up here.  That is: classes for people over 55 years.  I get several people a year who develop altitude problems at 6666ft even though much of the stuff you read about the illness claim there's no problem below 8000ft.  I send my people to Bozeman (4000ft) and they recover very nicely.  Also - as people get older thier tolerance to altitude stress seems to lessen so someone who had problems at 8000ft two years ago may have difficulty at 6000ft today.  There's no doubt that drinking lots of water and staying away from diuretics such as caffeen and alcohol (coffee, beer, etc - bummer) helps.

Roger Lahti wrote:

 

Ratcliff wrote:

I have a query for those with medical expertise.  I am bothered by altitude sickness above 8000 or 8500 feet.....my town is elev. 659 feet...and I have been told by several people that altitude sickness can be controlled by drinking lots of water...that the water not only keeps you hydrated properly, but it also supplies the body with some oxygen.  "You gotta drink your oxygen."  I know I feel better at high altitude when I drink lots of water.  Why?Lanney Ratcliff

Lanney,

I won't claim to have any real medical experience other than what I got in EMT training in the Fire Dept. and my exposure to the Paramedics on the Dept that came after us EMT's but I will offer the following until someone with more knowledge comes along.

Your body performs all funtions better when properly hydrated. Blood flows where it needs to be more easily, metabolism is more efficient, waste materials are eliminated more efficiently, etc.

So dehydration all by itself don't do you no good. When we camp or trek, one of the biggest problems is getting enough pure liquids into our bodies. Water is heavy to pack and when we mix it with tea, coffee and alcohol we dehidrate ourselves even more because those "polutants" are diaretic in effect on our systems, (makes us pee a lot).

One trick that we've been trying with some success in recent years where we go from 500' in Eastern Wa. to 8000'+ in the Rockies is to take an Alka-seltser tablet each day for a week or two before the trip, along with lots of water. It seems to help with the sudden change in altitude. And don't ask me why it works, it just does. Come to think of it, plain asprin might work too, thins the blood! In fact it is fairly common practice to take a half an asprin to reduce your vulnrability to sudden heart attack and stroke these days. Keeps the blood flowing and reduces infamation and if I ever have the symptoms of a stroke or heart attack, the second thing I will do after first dialing 911 will be to pop an asprin. Basic preventitive medicine. Don't wait until you are at 8000' before you start doing something about it. Hope I'm not too far off the mark but that's what I know about it. I remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

--------------487D0EE9AC1970FEF02FE428-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 22:59:02 -0500 Date: 10 May 1999 10:33:00 EDT It's the asprin in the alka selfser that does it. One asprin a day does the same thing ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kent Duryee Subject: MtMan-List: Robert D. Reeves Date: 10 May 1999 09:27:06 -0700 Greetings; I recently wrote to the list requesting information on a Kentucky style flintlock that I have. Michael Pierce was kind enough to read through a detailed description of the gun, and he recommended that I post a general question to the list. The rifle was made for my dad by Robert D. Reeves of Lancaster, California in 1967. Its craftsmanship and beauty are readily apparent, as the gun is in wonderful condition thanks to years of care from my dad, who passed away in 1989. I was wondering if any of you might be able to supply me with any more information about Mr. Reeves and his rifles. Apparently he was well known in certain circles, especially in Southern California. I remember visiting him in his garage/workshop during the time he was making my dad's rifle, but I was only 6 or 7 at the time and don't really remember any details about the man or his work. It would be wonderful to have a small biography of the man who put so much obvious care and meticulous consideration to detail into the crafting of the rifle to accompany it as the gun moves through its own history. If anyone can supply me with any information, I would sincerely appreciate it. Thank you again, Kent Duryee -- ____________________________________ "...May the Great Sun dazzle your eyes by day and the Great Bear watch over you by night." - - Ed Abbey- - ____________________________________ monolake@coyote.csusm.edu Kent Duryee ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BADITUDE1@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Polycythemia" mountain sickness Date: 10 May 1999 14:26:08 EDT Definition: An abnormal increase in blood cells (primarily red blood cells) resulting from increased production by the bone marrow. Causes, incidence, and risk factors: Polycythemia Vera is an acquired disorder of the bone marrow, which causes an overproduction of all three blood cell lines: white blood cells, red blood cells, and platelets. It is a rare disorder, occurring more frequently in men, and is rarely seen in those under 40 years old. Its cause is unknown, and the disease is considered a hematologic malignancy. Polycythemia is not a joke nor is it easily remedied, unless you know more than the hematology oncologist that I have seen. There is an approximate life expectancy of 10-15 years, which is not that long if it is YOUR life you are talking about. The chances are slim of getting hit by a truck, but that is always the come back about not knowing how long you will live... You really struck a cord with me since I just found out that I have Polycythemia and I am not male, over 50 nor Jewish, so I have no idea how long I will last, but If all it took were to live in high altitude I think JR and I would pack up and leave So. Cal. In a heart beat. So if you have any documentation, let me know. JR's other half, Eileen ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 22:59:02 -0500 Date: 10 May 1999 14:01:40 -0500 At 10:33 AM 5/10/99 -0400, you wrote: >It's the asprin in the alka selfser that does it.=A0 One asprin a day do= es the=20 >same thing >=20 Chewing the inner bark of willow or dogwood will do the same and is a mor= e correct method for our period. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kurt Westenbarger" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: altitude sickness Date: 10 May 1999 13:37:27 -0700 just got off the phone with a doctor freind who says aspirin and the like only helps the symptoms of altitude sickness while the body adapts - it doesn't help the body adapt. anyway he sent me the following which me thinks comes from the NOLS (National Outdoor Leadership School) wilderness first aid book. Thought I'd pass it on. Kurt Introduction Each year approximately 6,000 people climb Mount Rainierelevation 14,408 feet. Another 6,000 trek to the base of Mount Everest, reaching altitudes of 18,000 feet, and 800 people attempt to climb Denali-elevation 20,320 feet. Skiers in the Rocky Mountains often ski at altitudes of 11,000 to 12,000 feet; many arrive at altitude and ski within 24 hours of leaving low elevations. Thousands of people trek in Nepal, South America and Africa every year at altitudes of over 13,000 feet. All of these people are at risk for altitude illness. Recent studies show that 66 percent of the climbers on Rainier, 47 percent of the Everest trekkers, and 30 percent of the Denali climbers develop symptoms of altitude illness. NOLS expeditions have managed life-threatening cerebral edema at 21,000 feet on Cerro Aconcagua in Argentina and pulmonary edema at 9,000 feet in Wyoming's Wind River Range. Prevention through acclimatization provides some protection from altitude illness, but there is no immunity. If you travel in mountains you need to know how to prevent, recognize and treat altitude illness. Lack of oxygen is the number one cause of health problems at altitude. Normally, oxygen diffuses from the alveoli into the blood because the gas pressure is greater in the alveoli than in blood. At altitude, diminished air pressure (barometric pressure) reduces the pressure in the alveoli and decreases the amount of oxygen diffusing into the blood. For example, in a healthy person at sea level, blood is 95 percent saturated with oxygen. At 18,000 feet it is only 71 percent saturated; i.e., it is carrying 29 percent less oxygen. As altitude increases, barometric pressure falls logarithmically. Distance from the equator, seasons and weather also affect barometric pressure. The greater the distance from the equator, the lower the barometric pressure, given the same elevation. For example, if Mt. Everest were located at the same latitude as Denali, the corresponding drop in barometric pressure would make an ascent without oxygen impossible. As for seasons and weather, air pressure is lower in winter than in summer, and a low pressure trough will reduce pressure. While temperature does not directly affect barometric pressure, the combination of cold stress and lack of oxygen increases the risk of cold injuries and altitude problems. Adaptation to Altitude The body undergoes numerous changes at higher elevation in order to increase oxygen delivery to cells and improve efficiency of oxygen use. These adaptations usually begin almost immediately and continue to occur for several weeks. People vary in their ability to acclimatize. Some adjust quickly while others fail to acclimatize, even with gradual exposure over a period of weeks. In general, the body becomes approximately 80 percent acclimatized after 10 days at altitude and approximately 95 percent acclimatized by six weeks. The respiratory rate peaks in about one week and then slowly decreases over the next few months, although it tends to remain higher than its normal rate at sea level. After 10 days, the heart rate starts to decrease. When we descend, we begin losing our hard-won adaptations at approximately the same rate at which we gained them; 10 days after returning to sea level, we have lost 80 percent of our adaptations. The three common types of altitude illness are acute mountain sickness (AMS), high altitude pulmonary edema (HAPE) and high altitude cerebral edema (HACE). AMS is the most common. It is not life-threatening, but if not treated it call progress into HAPE or HACE. HAPE is less common but more serious. HACE is rare but can be sudden and severe. Acute Mountain Sickness Acute mountain sickness is a term applied to a group of symptoms. It is more apt to occur in unacclimatized people who make rapid ascents to above 8,000 feet. It also occurs in people who partially acclimatize then make an abrupt ascent to 0 higher altitude. Signs and Symptoms Signs and symptoms tend to start six to 72 hours after arrival at high altitude. They usually disappear in two to six days Symptoms are worse in the mornings, probably due to normal decrease in rate and depth of breathing during sleep, which lowers blood oxygen saturation. Symptoms include the following Headache Increased cerebral blood flow helps the brain maintain its oxygen supply, but the expanded volume causes pain as the system adapts. Malaise Malaise (uneasy feeling), drowsiness and lassitude occur because of decreased oxygen in the blood. Loss of Appetite, Nausea and Vomiting When blood is shunted to the vital organs (heart, lungs, brain), perfusion of the gastrointestinal tract decreases, compromising its function. Anorexia, nausea and vomiting are the result. Peripheral Edema Persons with acute mountain sickness tend to retain fluid, resulting in edema, especially of the face and hands. Disturbed Sleep During sleep, a person's rate and depth of respiration may gradually increase until it reaches a climax. Breathing then ceases entirely for five to 50 seconds. This phenomenon is called Cheyne-Stokes respiration. Cheyne-Stokes breathing further decreases the level of oxygen in the blood. Cyanosis Cyanosis (a bluish appearance) in the fingernail beds, mucous membranes and around the mouth occurs as a result of decreased oxygen saturation of the blood. Treatment Limit your activity during the first three days at altitudes greater, than 8,000 feet; it may take three to four days to acclimatize. Drink copious amounts of fluids to help the kidneys excrete bicarbonate. Aspirin, acetaminophen or ibuprofen may ease the headache. If symptoms worsen, signs of ataxia or pulmonary' edema become apparent or there is a change in the level of consciousness, descend to the altitude where symptoms began. Usually descending 2,000 to 3,000 feet is sufficient. John Kramer wrote: > At 10:33 AM 5/10/99 -0400, you wrote: > >It's the asprin in the alka selfser that does it. One asprin a day does the > >same thing > > > > Chewing the inner bark of willow or dogwood will do the same and is a more > correct method for our period. > > John... > > Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. > John Kramer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Maps again Date: 10 May 1999 16:42:58 -0400 I have seen some old maps made by Native Americans in the research I am doing. Didn't pay much attention to them, but they were made of soft tan hide and were painted using the same materials as the sketch books. That is, paint, charcoal, Ink and some colored pencils. There was no writing on them. Just land marks. Linda Holley Jennifer McEntire wrote: > As a researcher/writer for a museum exhibit design firm, I am seeking to > be as accurate as possible in the details I am developing for a museum > which will include an aspect of Mountain Man and Native American > cultures. I was told that the users of this list would be able to help > me with some fact-finding. > > Earlier, I mailed you about the materials used by MM for mapmaking. > However, I think my message got caught up in the rantings of a > dissatisfied list member who seemed to be very closed minded about this > great communication you've got going. So I'll try again... > > We are reconstructing a map which should look as though it was > constructed by either Native Americans or Mountain Men, and are trying > to decide the materials to use. Buckskin, paper, bark, etc. Any advice? > Here's your big chance to show up the Harvard Map Collection, who didn't > know much about this topic. > > Thank you so much! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Yep Crow (not Blackfeet) Date: 10 May 1999 16:44:35 -0400 I would probably say Kiowa, not Blackfeet. Linda Holley JON MARINETTI wrote: > [Image] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Spencer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Polycythemia" mountain sickness Date: 10 May 1999 18:23:28 -0400 >Polycythemia Vera is an acquired >disorder of the bone marrow, which causes an overproduction of all three >blood cell lines: white blood cells, red blood cells, and platelets. > It is a rare disorder, occurring more frequently in men, and is rarely seen >in those under 40 years old. Its cause is unknown, and the disease is >considered a hematologic malignancy. True, but that's not what is being discussed, here. The pivotal word is that "vera". There are many perfectly normal reasons why a person can develope a "relative" polycythemia, that are in no way pathological. For instance, when the olympics were held in Mexico City, which is a mile high, the athletes from low regions made every effort to go there weeks early to train, so that their bodies might have time to develope the normal polycythemia that goes with living at high altitude. Their blood counts would quickly return to their usual level once they returned home. The reason most people going suddenly to high altitude will feel much better after 3-4-5 days is that their bodies dump huge quantities of new red cells into their circulation and bring their oxygen utilization capacities back somewhere near normal. Again, this isn't 'polycythemia vera', which is a disease. It's a normal adaptive process our bodies use, and happens to all of us very frequently if we travel much betweens regions of different altitudes. Bob Spencer ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: MtMan-List: Altitude Date: 10 May 1999 16:40:13 -0600 Lanney - Moving here from Oklahoma, I had to make some adjustments right at first, so here are a few suggestions. Some came from my wife, the Native Coloradoan. Take an aspirin a day for a couple of weeks before you get here. When you get to camp, do lots of laying around and taking it easy, especially for the first few days. Go to a supply house and rent an oxygen bottle to bring with you. Whenever you feel the need, go to your tent and inhale. Even if someone sees it and trys to raise a fuss, it is medicinal. I'm quite sure there won't be any problem, but if you need to, clear it with George or Gordon first. Hope this helps and if you need to aclimate for a few days at a higher altitude, you know where to do so, don't you? Don & Phyllis DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Altitude Date: 10 May 1999 15:45:25 -0700 Don, I think he has the laying around part down pretty good and he's always got a headache (so the aspirin a day is covered). He just has to change his brand of bottle, he's ready for the altitude. Buck > On Mon, 10 May 1999, Phyllis and Don Keas wrote: > > Lanney - Moving here from Oklahoma, I had to make some adjustments > right at first, so here are a few suggestions. Some came from my wife, the > Native Coloradoan. > > Take an aspirin a day for a couple of weeks before you get here. > When you get to camp, do lots of laying around and taking it easy, > especially for the first few days. > Go to a supply house and rent an oxygen bottle to bring with you. > Whenever you feel the need, go to your tent and inhale. Even if someone sees it > and trys to raise a fuss, it is medicinal. I'm quite sure there won't be > any problem, but if you need to, clear it with George or Gordon first. > > Hope this helps and if you need to aclimate for a few days at a higher > altitude, you know where to do so, don't you? Don & Phyllis > > DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Yep Crow (not Blackfeet) Date: 10 May 1999 18:44:10 -0400 They's Crow!!! That's what he said!! "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accouterments http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 -----Original Message----- >I would probably say Kiowa, not Blackfeet. > >Linda Holley > >JON MARINETTI wrote: > >> [Image] > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Polycythemia" mountain sickness Date: 10 May 1999 15:51:52 -0700 Being near Denver, it's a mile high, many sport teams come early to practice before the game and get adjusted to the thin air. If you watch baseball, basketball or football you'll see the vistors with their bottles of oxygen and masks on the sidelines. I have a friend that's a long distance runner, he flys at this altitude, but when going to Boston the altitude change and humidity almost killed him the last few miles of the race. Your damned if you do and damned if you don't anymore. Buck Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Maps again Date: 10 May 1999 20:05:48 EDT OK here i go again, the only map i ve found was in the missouri his.society's library done by a indian was been made of paper, Some maps with a canvas backing.But most of the maps i have seen are on paper.I have been into maps and repro.them for about ten years .I came across one by george sibley going to santa fe on paper i think it was in the late 1820's.write to me off line at traphand@aol.com tell what grade this is for hope this little helps. rick ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Polycythemia" mountain sickness Date: 10 May 1999 21:12:38 -0500 Buck I might have you comedians come for supper one evening and have taters = roasted in the hot ashes......let you wonder why they taste funny. Lanney ps: Thanks for the info on the altitude sickness. ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Monday, May 10, 1999 9:20 AM > Lanney, > =20 > Maybe you need to sit down and have a talk with someone about your = "atitude", can see having problems when standing, and being in a higher = altitude (height problem). Now that I said that and will probably pay = for it at the Nationals along with everthing else we have made fun of = with the "Spud Gun". > =20 > "Polycythemia" is the medical name for your problem, has to do with = red cell count in the blood when changing your surrounding (going higher = or lower in altitude). > =20 > I read that people that live in high altitudes (above 10,000 ft.) have = an increased number of red cells because the amount of oxygen in the air = at this altitude is decreased, therefore the body reacts with increased = red cell production. Those people move to a lower altitude, their = polycythemia disappears, over a period of time. > =20 > So people going to high altitude not use to it may bring on the = so-called "mountain sickness" do to having lower blood flow or red = cells, usually by inadequate oxygen from the thin air. I have heard that = to avoid the "sickness" approach the higher altitudes slowly for your = body to adapt itself, that's hard to do when traveling on land, in a = plane its done with pressure adjustments. > =20 > Drink lots of liquids, as mentioned water is the best, booze will seem = to take less than usual for the same effect, anyone with health = problems, over weight, etc. should see their doctor before changing to = extreme altitudes as a safety measure. There are medicines available to = help relieve the problem, can't remember what they were now, used to = take in out of state hunters when living in Masonville CO and ones from = lower to sea level altitudes did have problems, from headaches to sick = in their stomach to not being able to walk any distances. Check your = doctor Lanney, I know there are pills available that seem to help. > =20 > YF&B > Buck Conner > Baker Party / Colorado >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Ratcliff > To: AMM > Cc: History List > Date: Sunday, May 09, 1999 9:55 PM > Subject: AMM-List: Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 22:59:02 -0500 >=20 >=20 > I have a query for those with medical expertise. I am bothered by = altitude sickness above 8000 or 8500 feet.....my town is elev. 659 = feet...and I have been told by several people that altitude sickness can = be controlled by drinking lots of water...that the water not only keeps = you hydrated properly, but it also supplies the body with some oxygen. = "You gotta drink your oxygen." I know I feel better at high altitude = when I drink lots of water. Why? > Lanney Ratcliff >=20 >=20 >=20 > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account = http://www.uswestmail.net >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: altitude sickmess query Date: 10 May 1999 21:26:19 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006C_01BE9B2B.BEA165E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks to all who generously responded with good information regarding = altitude sickness. I got more than a little queasy at 9200 feet at the = '97 AMM rendezvous, and I am sure others from low altitudes have = experienced similar symptoms. I hope to have better luck this time. = One request: if I get sick again and need assistance, don't let anybody = field dress me before hauling me down the mountain. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ------=_NextPart_000_006C_01BE9B2B.BEA165E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks to all who generously responded with good information = regarding=20 altitude sickness.  I got more than a little queasy at 9200 feet at = the '97=20 AMM rendezvous, and I am sure others from low altitudes have experienced = similar=20 symptoms.  I hope to have better luck this time.  One request: = if I=20 get sick again and need assistance, don't let anybody field dress me = before=20 hauling me down the mountain.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
------=_NextPart_000_006C_01BE9B2B.BEA165E0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: altitude sickmess query Date: 10 May 1999 20:26:15 -0700 --------------2C23EE6A35108030671E009E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ratcliff wrote: > Thanks to all who generously responded with good information > regarding altitude sickness. I got more than a little queasy at 9200 > feet at the '97 AMM rendezvous, and I am sure others from low > altitudes have experienced similar symptoms. I hope to have better > luck this time. One request: if I get sick again and need assistance, > don't let anybody field dress me before hauling me down the > mountain.YMOSLanney Ratcliff > > Lanney: > > The only way anyone is gona haul you down the mountain is if they > field dress you first! Course if we was near a creek we could make you > into a bull boat and the whole camp could go to town to see what your > problem was. Best trick to get by the altitude sickness is to take a > young probie with you to do camp chores for a few days while you get > climatized. I remain...... > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' --------------2C23EE6A35108030671E009E Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  

Ratcliff wrote:

  Thanks to all who generously responded with good information regarding altitude sickness.  I got more than a little queasy at 9200 feet at the '97 AMM rendezvous, and I am sure others from low altitudes have experienced similar symptoms.  I hope to have better luck this time.  One request: if I get sick again and need assistance, don't let anybody field dress me before hauling me down the mountain.YMOSLanney Ratcliff

Lanney:

The only way anyone is gona haul you down the mountain is if they field dress you first! Course if we was near a creek we could make you into a bull boat and the whole camp could go to town to see what your problem was. Best trick to get by the altitude sickness is to take a young probie with you to do camp chores for a few days while you get climatized. I remain......

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

  --------------2C23EE6A35108030671E009E-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Laurel huber Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Maps again Date: 10 May 1999 23:44:56 -0700 Most of the maps I have seen drawn by European/American explorers were either done on paper or horn. The journals of Lewis and Clark contain many examples of partial maps as do the writings of other period explorers. This work used black ink on white paper of high cloth content. Both the ink and paper of surviving examples have "browned" in color. The horn art of scrimshaw is a good source of map drawings. This work was carved into powder horns and many fine examples exist from the 18th and 19th centuries. The most recent example of a map drawn by indigenous people in America was carved on the side of a rock face in Arizona. It (apparently) depicted the twisting and turns of the river that ran along its base. When I say "recent" I am referring to my viewing and not the ancient carving of these rock dwellers. In the Great Lakes area where I was raised, Ojibway people used birth bark often as material for documentation. Although I do not remember seeing what would pass for an actual map, if a portable example was needed, bark would have been a commonly used material at hand. As far as the use of leather for this work, you could look at the art painted on elk and buffalo robes. The topographical drawings on this material as well as the designs on rawhide bags was meant to be more symbolic rather than directional in nature. If you merely want to create the "look" of a map for display rather than an actual museum reproduction, I would recommend looking in journals or on the sides of powder horns for the type of drawing used to describe maps during this period. Art work by Native Americans when depicting maps is very stylized and often angular in design. If the map maker was an explorer, use paper, quill and ink. If it is to represent the work of an indigenous native, use bark painted with stick or "brush". I hope this was helpful. For specific examples, I'm sure others on the list can quote chapter and verse better than I. Good luck. Thanks for asking rather than just doing whatever "felt" good. Shoots-the-Prairie" Larry Huber Jennifer McEntire wrote: > As a researcher/writer for a museum exhibit design firm, I am seeking to > be as accurate as possible in the details I am developing for a museum > which will include an aspect of Mountain Man and Native American > cultures. I was told that the users of this list would be able to help > me with some fact-finding. > > Earlier, I mailed you about the materials used by MM for mapmaking. > However, I think my message got caught up in the rantings of a > dissatisfied list member who seemed to be very closed minded about this > great communication you've got going. So I'll try again... > > We are reconstructing a map which should look as though it was > constructed by either Native Americans or Mountain Men, and are trying > to decide the materials to use. Buckskin, paper, bark, etc. Any advice? > Here's your big chance to show up the Harvard Map Collection, who didn't > know much about this topic. > > Thank you so much! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Duncan Macready Subject: Re: MtMan-List: "Polycythemia" mountain sickness Date: 11 May 1999 18:55:35 +1200 Buck wrote: >Being near Denver, it's a mile high, many sport teams come early to practice before the game and get adjusted to the thin air. If you watch baseball, basketball or football you'll see the vistors with their bottles of oxygen and masks on the sidelines. If they walked there or road a horse or wagon as in the old days they would arrive fit with no altitude problems, a bit late is all. > YMOS Cutfinger. Friendships made. Problems shared. Campfires across the Wilderness ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MIA3WOLVES@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: OFF TOPIC: altitude sickness caution Date: 11 May 1999 06:56:35 EDT Fellow list members: I would like to caution anyone with a heart condition to be particularly careful when traveling through the mountains if they come from the lower elevations. Even though my father's doctor in Mich. advised him that he could travel to his winter home in Ariz., the stress of the altitude going through the mountains caused his death. I was told at the hospital in Apache Junction, AR that every fall they have several who suffer the same fate because doctors in lower altitude states under estimate the stress of the high altitudes. Respectfully, Red Hawk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: altitude sickmess query Date: 11 May 1999 08:54:38 -0700 Lanney, I will be camping near you and if needed will haul you out, remember I will have my new correct period wheelbarrow, (got the heavy duty model). Only kidding, I know how not feeling well can really take away from enjoying one's self. At the '97 Nationals I got hit on the sciatic nerve on the back of my leg and that had me in pain for several weeks, you saw me hopping around in the parking lot. First time I met Lanney, and he's was making remarks about the big rabbit ! If you just take it easy and we can help if there's a problem, we'll be in good shape bud. Later YF&B Buck Conner ________________ > On Mon, 10 May 1999, "Ratcliff" wrote: > > > Thanks to all who generously responded with good information regarding altitude sickness. I got more than a little queasy at 9200 feet at the '97 AMM rendezvous, and I am sure others from low altitudes have experienced similar symptoms. I hope to have better luck this time. One request: if I get sick again and need assistance, don't let anybody field dress me before hauling me down the mountain. > > YMOS > > Lanney Ratcliff Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: MtMan-List: life in the 1500's Date: 11 May 1999 09:26:31 -0600 A friend sent me this and I thought it was interesting. If you don't like the 1500's, hit the delete! Life in the 1500's: >>>>Most people got married in June because they took their yearly bath in May >>>>and were still smelling pretty good by June. However, they were starting to >>>>smell, so brides carried a bouquet of flowers to hide the b.o. >>>>Baths equaled a big tub filled with hot water. The man of the house had the >>>>privilege of the nice clean water, then all the other sons and men, then >>>>the women and finally the children. Last of all the babies. By then the >>>>water was so dirty you could actually loose someone in it. >>>>Hence the saying, "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water". >>>>Houses had thatched roofs. Thick straw, piled high, with no wood >>>>underneath. It was the only place for animals to get warm, so all the >>>>pets... dogs, cats and other small animals, mice, rats, bugs lived in the >>>>roof. When it rained it became slippery and sometimes the animals would >>>>slip and fall off the roof. Hence the saying, "It's raining cats and dogs," >>>> >>>>There was nothing to stop things from falling into the house. This posed a >>>>real problem in the bedroom where bugs and other droppings could really >>>>mess up your nice clean bed. So, they found if >>>>they made beds with big posts and hung a sheet over the top, it addressed >>>>that problem. >>>>Hence those beautiful big 4 poster beds with canopies. >>>>The floor was dirt. Only the wealthy had something other than dirt, hence >>>>the saying "dirt poor". The wealthy had slate floors which >>>>would get slippery in the winter when wet. So they spread thresh on the >>>>floor to help keep their footing. As the winter wore on, they kept adding >>>>more thresh until when you opened the door, it would >>>>all start slipping outside. A piece of wood was placed at the entry way, >>>>hence a "thresh hold". >>>>They cooked in the kitchen in a big kettle that always hung over the fire. >>>>Every day they lit the fire and added things to the pot. They mostly ate >>>>vegetables and didn't get much meat. They would eat the stew for dinner >>>>leaving leftovers in the pot to get cold overnight and then start over the >>>>next day. Sometimes the stew had food in it that had been in there for a >>>>month. Hence the rhyme: peas >>>>porridge hot, peas porridge cold, peas porridge in the pot nine days >>>>old." >>>>Sometimes they could obtain pork and would feel really special when that >>>>happened. When company came over, they would bring out some >>>>bacon and hang it to show it off. It was a sign of wealth and that a >>>>man "could really bring home the bacon." They would cut off a little >>>>to share with guests and would all sit around and "chew the fat." >>>>Those with money had plates made of pewter. Food with a high acid content >>>>caused some of the lead to leach onto the food. This happened most often >>>>with tomatoes, so they stopped eating tomatoes... >>>>for 400 years. >>>>Most people didn't have pewter plates, but had trenchers - a piece of >>>>wood with the middle scooped out like a bowl. Trencher were never washed >>>>and a lot of times worms got into the wood. After eating off wormy >>>>trenchers, they would get "trench mouth." >>>>Bread was divided according to status. Workers got the burnt bottom of the >>>>loaf, the family got the middle, and guests got the top, or the "upper >>>>crust". >>>>Lead cups were used to drink ale or whiskey. The combination would >>>>sometimes knock them out for a couple of days. Someone walking >>>>along the road would take them for dead and prepare them for burial. They >>>>were laid out on the kitchen table for a couple of days >>>>and the family would gather around and eat and drink and wait and see >>>>if they would wake up. Hence the custom of holding a "wake". >>>>England is old and small and they started running out of places to bury >>>>people. So, they would dig up coffins and would take their bones to a house >>>>and re-use the grave. In reopening these coffins, one out of 25 coffins we >>>>refound to have scratch marks on the inside >>>>and they realized they had been burying people alive. So they thought >>>>they would tie a string on their wrist and lead it through the coffin >>>>and up through the ground and tie it to a bell. Someone would have to >>>>sit out in the graveyard all night to listen for the bell. Hence on the >>>>"graveyard shift" they would know that someone was "saved by the >>>>bell" or he was a "dead ringer". Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery check out our NEW WEB SITE: http://www.wy-biz.com/absarokawesterndesigns/index.html Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Lodgepole Furniture - Rawhide - Buffalo Robes - Costumes Metal Art - Custom Tanning - Leather - Gifts ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: altitude sickmess query Date: 11 May 1999 11:01:47 -0700 Buck, I found some good information on your spoked wooden wheel, wheel barrow and for your information that design dates back to the 1500's. I wonder what the boys at Plymouth Rock had ? Turtle. > On Tue, 11 May 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > > Lanney, > I will be camping near you and if needed will haul you out, remember I will have my new correct period wheelbarrow, (got the heavy duty model). Only kidding, I know how not feeling well can really take away from enjoying one's self. > > At the '97 Nationals I got hit on the sciatic nerve on the back of my leg and that had me in pain for several weeks, you saw me hopping around in the parking lot. First time I met Lanney, and he's was making remarks about the big rabbit ! > > If you just take it easy and we can help if there's a problem, we'll be in good shape bud. > > Later > YF&B > Buck Conner > ________________ > > > On Mon, 10 May 1999, "Ratcliff" wrote: > > > > > > Thanks to all who generously responded with good information regarding altitude sickness. I got more than a little queasy at 9200 feet at the '97 AMM rendezvous, and I am sure others from low altitudes have experienced similar symptoms. I hope to have better luck this time. One request: if I get sick again and need assistance, don't let anybody field dress me before hauling me down the mountain. > > > > YMOS > > > > Lanney Ratcliff > > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: altitude sickmess query Date: 11 May 1999 12:47:31 -0700 A spoked wooden wheel, wheel barrow, snail. > On Tue, 11 May 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote: > > Buck, > I found some good information on your spoked wooden wheel, wheel barrow and for your information that design dates back to the 1500's. I wonder what the boys at Plymouth Rock had ? > Turtle. > > > > On Tue, 11 May 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > > > > Lanney, > > I will be camping near you and if needed will haul you out, remember I will have my new correct period wheelbarrow, (got the heavy duty model). Only kidding, I know how not feeling well can really take away from enjoying one's self. > > > > At the '97 Nationals I got hit on the sciatic nerve on the back of my leg and that had me in pain for several weeks, you saw me hopping around in the parking lot. First time I met Lanney, and he's was making remarks about the big rabbit ! > > > > If you just take it easy and we can help if there's a problem, we'll be in good shape bud. > > > > Later > > YF&B > > Buck Conner > > ________________ > > > > > On Mon, 10 May 1999, "Ratcliff" wrote: > > > > > > > > > Thanks to all who generously responded with good information regarding altitude sickness. I got more than a little queasy at 9200 feet at the '97 AMM rendezvous, and I am sure others from low altitudes have experienced similar symptoms. I hope to have better luck this time. One request: if I get sick again and need assistance, don't let anybody field dress me before hauling me down the mountain. > > > > > > YMOS > > > > > > Lanney Ratcliff > > > > > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mt Man_List Deringer Date: 11 May 1999 15:01:35 -0700 Check this page on tradeguns, manufacturers, quanitys produced, etc. : http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html > On Sun, 09 May 1999, George Noe wrote: > Mr. Mullen:( and others on the list) > Thanks for your help with Treaties. > I, like you, think Deringer's records are where I need to look.(I > thought the treaty end of the search would justify our reason for > needing to find Deringers records) > Douglas Jones(AMM) said he found a little on Deringer > and this contract several years ago. But , lost or missed placed, the > info. He is wanting to develope a "persona" of an early S.W. > Trader/Trapper(about 1830) > In Grant Forman's "Pioneer Days in the Early Southwest"(A good book) > University of Nebraska Press. > There was plenty of trading/trapping in our area(South Central > Oklahoma) and all around. > "Doug has a Deringer (reproduction) that he might have > traded from one of the Indians in the area, to justify > his possesion of the rifle." In his presentations of "Living History" > at schools, he wants to have a little Indian history of the area. > Thus " a new CAN of worms" > > > Any help in tracing down Deringers records? > Let's go fishing!!!! > > === > George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > 1005 W.Donkey Ln. Marlow Ok. 73055 > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: life in the 1500's Date: 11 May 1999 19:40:20 EDT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: altitude sickmess query Date: 11 May 1999 20:25:45 -0500 I fully intend to take it easy. I am not particularly concerned about = becoming sick, because last year in Pierre's Hole and in '96 in the = Bitterroots I had no problem. I got a little sick in '97 at 9200 ft = where you were hopping around. I figure that a little preparation would = be helpful. Thanks again to all who responded Lanney ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 1999 2:47 PM > A spoked wooden wheel, wheel barrow, snail. >=20 > > On Tue, 11 May 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote: > >=20 > > Buck, > > I found some good information on your spoked wooden wheel, wheel = barrow and for your information that design dates back to the 1500's. I = wonder what the boys at Plymouth Rock had ? > > Turtle. > >=20 > >=20 > > > On Tue, 11 May 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > > >=20 > > > Lanney, > > > I will be camping near you and if needed will haul you out, = remember I will have my new correct period wheelbarrow, (got the heavy = duty model). Only kidding, I know how not feeling well can really take = away from enjoying one's self. > > >=20 > > > At the '97 Nationals I got hit on the sciatic nerve on the back of = my leg and that had me in pain for several weeks, you saw me hopping = around in the parking lot. First time I met Lanney, and he's was making = remarks about the big rabbit ! > > >=20 > > > If you just take it easy and we can help if there's a problem, = we'll be in good shape bud. > > >=20 > > > Later > > > YF&B > > > Buck Conner > > > ________________ > > >=20 > > > > On Mon, 10 May 1999, "Ratcliff" wrote: > > > > > > > >=20 > > > > Thanks to all who generously responded with good information = regarding altitude sickness. I got more than a little queasy at 9200 = feet at the '97 AMM rendezvous, and I am sure others from low altitudes = have experienced similar symptoms. I hope to have better luck this = time. One request: if I get sick again and need assistance, don't let = anybody field dress me before hauling me down the mountain. > > > >=20 > > > > YMOS > > > >=20 > > > > Lanney Ratcliff > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account = http://www.uswestmail.net > >=20 > >=20 > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account = http://www.uswestmail.net >=20 >=20 > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account = http://www.uswestmail.net >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: life in the 1500's Date: 11 May 1999 20:37:42 -0500 Try her again, Traphand. =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 1999 6:40 PM >=20 >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: MtMan-List: ALL Date: 11 May 1999 20:57:34 -0600 Buck, Lanney & Doc - You mean it ain't wrong to do it right? Now that is one hell of a concept. And one fine one at that. Glad to pitch your video(Or Leo's) Doc. Really had fun watching it. That video, some old MM movies, and lots of books sure make the winter hours good. The only thing better is a winter camp which is even betyter athan a summer one. I have seen how Lanney camps and he does have a fine one. I didn't see anything out of place and was very much impressed with the proprietor. A real gentleman as well as authentic. Hard combination to beat and I am really looking forward to seeing him again at Jackson Hole. Looking forward to seeing Buck again too. Come to think of it, looking forward to seeing lots of good men and women. Really like hearing that being authentic at least to the best of someone's ability is not considered a bad thing. At least not by all. Can't wait for the Nationals. Don ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: MtMan-List: buffalo hides Date: 11 May 1999 21:36:08 -0600 I have three back halves of buffalo, short hair, but not slicked off as in summer robes. Some rub spots. Each measure about 6" x 3". These would be great for cut ups. bags, moccasins, etc. Want $175.00 each. Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery check out our NEW WEB SITE: http://www.wy-biz.com/absarokawesterndesigns/index.html Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Lodgepole Furniture - Rawhide - Buffalo Robes - Costumes Metal Art - Custom Tanning - Leather - Gifts ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period recipes, drinks, camp life Date: 11 May 1999 23:22:10 EDT a while back someone on the list posted an address for a smokehouse in Arkansas, called the Hillbilly or Arkansas Smokehouse maybe. Now'd be a good time to print it again; lost my addresses long ago while viewing the dreaded 'blue screen of death' (bet bill gates never sees it!!!. as far a a good drinkin' recipe, here's one thats a little pricy, but worth every penny that goes into it: WOLF'S BREATH ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ron Chamberlain" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buffalo hides Date: 11 May 1999 22:17:50 -0600 You wrote: "Each measure about 6" x 3". " Hope you meant feet and not inches Joe! Lonewolf ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "john c. funk,jr" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buffalo hides Date: 12 May 1999 07:25:39 -0700 Joe, PS. Are these green or tanned? ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 1999 8:36 PM > I have three back halves of buffalo, short hair, but not slicked off as in > summer robes. Some rub spots. Each measure about 6" x 3". These would be > great for cut ups. bags, moccasins, etc. Want $175.00 each. > Joe > > Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery > check out our NEW WEB SITE: > http://www.wy-biz.com/absarokawesterndesigns/index.html > Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 > Lodgepole Furniture - Rawhide - Buffalo Robes - Costumes > Metal Art - Custom Tanning - Leather - Gifts > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: MtMan-List: buffalo hides Date: 12 May 1999 08:41:14 -0600 Sorry about the measurements, they are 6 feet by 3 feet approx. I can give detailed information about each one if you want. Each hide is chrome/alum tanned and very supple. Again, these are back halves and have short hair. I just have too many than I can use. Never thought I would say that 20 years ago when I first started buckskinning. Anyway, I will personally guarentee each of them. If they are not what you expected, just return them for a refund. I will have full hides later that are good for camping. Of course, we have some really nice winter robes also. Each robe has lifetime cleaning and reconditioning, that's the robes lifetime for you "old" folks. Thanks Joe You know I have a pile of elk and deer hair on hides I would like to get rid of. Used for film backgrounds and camping, these are OK for tipi floor rugs. Just put the hair side down to repel moisture. These have rub spots and loose hair, therefore won't sell in our store. Have a lot of them. Deer run $25 -$35, elk are $65 to $95. We except good checks, visa, M/C or Discovery Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery check out our NEW WEB SITE: http://www.wy-biz.com/absarokawesterndesigns/index.html Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Lodgepole Furniture - Rawhide - Buffalo Robes - Costumes Metal Art - Custom Tanning - Leather - Gifts ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: MtMan-List: more infor on buffalo Date: 12 May 1999 09:50:06 -0600 Ok, I decided to measure the three back halves. Wow, they are bigger than I thought. #1 is 27 sq ft. that's 7' x 3.75' #2 is 28 sq ft. 7' x 4 #3 is 25 sq ft. 6' x 4.25 Price is the same $175 each Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery check out our NEW WEB SITE: http://www.wy-biz.com/absarokawesterndesigns/index.html Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Lodgepole Furniture - Rawhide - Buffalo Robes - Costumes Metal Art - Custom Tanning - Leather - Gifts ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: terry l landis Subject: MtMan-List: slab bacon Date: 12 May 1999 12:01:10 -0700 well i did some research and found that this is the lowest priced slab i could find . i don't know about the quality but i will find out soon I'm ordering some for brigade. here's the web address http://www.olesmoky.com/p_ham.htm there's lots others out there. try a search for "slab bacon" i found 8-10 sites with varying prices and amounts. YMHS, Terry Landis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period recipes, drinks, camp life Date: 12 May 1999 15:55:57 -0600 Reply to: Re: MtMan-List: period recipes, drinks, camp life I like the title, but what's the recipe? DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants RR1LA wrote: >a while back someone on the list posted an address for a smokehouse in = >Arkansas, called the Hillbilly or Arkansas Smokehouse maybe. Now'd be a = good = >time to print it again; lost my addresses long ago while viewing the = dreaded = >'blue screen of death' (bet bill gates never sees it!!!. = > >as far a a good drinkin' recipe, here's one thats a little pricy, but = worth = >every penny that goes into it: > >WOLF'S BREATH > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > > Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with = ESMTP > (SMTPD32-5.01) id A7CDA14006E; Tue, 11 May 1999 21:38:53 -0600 > Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.05 #1) > id 10hPrB-0001Oc-00 > for hist_text-goout@lists.xmission.com; Tue, 11 May 1999 21:38:53 -0600 > Received: from [198.81.17.2] (helo=3Dimo12.mx.aol.com) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) > id 10hPr8-0001Mt-00 > for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Tue, 11 May 1999 21:38:51 -0600 > Received: from RR1LA@aol.com (8001) > by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id fTCBa24272 > for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 23:22:10 -0400 (= EDT) > From: RR1LA@aol.com > Message-ID: > Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 23:22:10 EDT > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period recipes, drinks, camp life > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 9 > Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > X-RCPT-TO: > X-UIDL: 1424 > Status: U > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period recipes, drinks, camp life Date: 12 May 1999 15:55:57 -0600 Reply to: Re: MtMan-List: period recipes, drinks, camp life I like the title, but what's the recipe? DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants RR1LA wrote: >a while back someone on the list posted an address for a smokehouse in = >Arkansas, called the Hillbilly or Arkansas Smokehouse maybe. Now'd be a = good = >time to print it again; lost my addresses long ago while viewing the = dreaded = >'blue screen of death' (bet bill gates never sees it!!!. = > >as far a a good drinkin' recipe, here's one thats a little pricy, but = worth = >every penny that goes into it: > >WOLF'S BREATH > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > > Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with = ESMTP > (SMTPD32-5.01) id A7CDA14006E; Tue, 11 May 1999 21:38:53 -0600 > Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.05 #1) > id 10hPrB-0001Oc-00 > for hist_text-goout@lists.xmission.com; Tue, 11 May 1999 21:38:53 -0600 > Received: from [198.81.17.2] (helo=3Dimo12.mx.aol.com) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) > id 10hPr8-0001Mt-00 > for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Tue, 11 May 1999 21:38:51 -0600 > Received: from RR1LA@aol.com (8001) > by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id fTCBa24272 > for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 23:22:10 -0400 (= EDT) > From: RR1LA@aol.com > Message-ID: > Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 23:22:10 EDT > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period recipes, drinks, camp life > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 9 > Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > X-RCPT-TO: > X-UIDL: 1424 > Status: U > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: RE: MtMan-List: slab bacon Date: 12 May 1999 15:56:01 -0600 Reply to: RE: MtMan-List: slab bacon What is the price? We get ours here in Pueblo, so would like to compare, DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants terry l landis wrote: >well i did some research and found that this is the lowest priced slab i >could find . i don't know about the quality but i will find out soon I'm >ordering some for brigade. >here's the web address http://www.olesmoky.com/p_ham.htm there's lots >others out there. try a search for "slab bacon" i found 8-10 sites with >varying prices and amounts. >YMHS, > Terry Landis > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > > Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with = ESMTP > (SMTPD32-5.01) id A02B41E006A; Wed, 12 May 1999 13:02:03 -0600 > Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.05 #1) > id 10heFp-0003fl-00 > for hist_text-goout@lists.xmission.com; Wed, 12 May 1999 13:01:17 -0600 > Received: from [209.67.33.61] (helo=3Dm3.jersey.juno.com) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) > id 10heFm-0003fZ-00 > for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Wed, 12 May 1999 13:01:15 -0600 > Received: (from tllandis@juno.com) > by m3.jersey.juno.com (queuemail) id EAFK9262; Wed, 12 May 1999 15:00:= 04 EDT > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 12:01:10 -0700 > Subject: MtMan-List: slab bacon > Message-ID: <19990512.120114.-300855.0.tllandis@juno.com> > X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 > X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2,5-7 > X-Juno-Att: 0 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: terry l landis > Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > X-RCPT-TO: > X-UIDL: 1434 > Status: U > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period recipes, drinks, camp life Date: 12 May 1999 21:10:16 EDT sorry for that bogus post: heres the recipe, and its a dandy..... WOLF'S BREATH 1 - 5TH OF SEAGRAMS V.O. 1 - 5TH OF YUKON JACK 1 - SMALL GRAND MARNIER 1/2 GALLON APPLE CIDER 3 - CINNAMON STICKS Mix all ingredients in a gallon jug and allow to steep for as many days as you have time. The longer it sits, the better it gets. This recipe came from Tony MacLane, 'The Man Who Dances With Wood', which may account for how he got the name... Enjoy, Barn. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period recipes, drinks, camp life Date: 12 May 1999 15:55:57 -0600 Reply to: Re: MtMan-List: period recipes, drinks, camp life I like the title, but what's the recipe? DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants RR1LA wrote: >a while back someone on the list posted an address for a smokehouse in = >Arkansas, called the Hillbilly or Arkansas Smokehouse maybe. Now'd be a = good = >time to print it again; lost my addresses long ago while viewing the = dreaded = >'blue screen of death' (bet bill gates never sees it!!!. = > >as far a a good drinkin' recipe, here's one thats a little pricy, but = worth = >every penny that goes into it: > >WOLF'S BREATH > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > > Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with = ESMTP > (SMTPD32-5.01) id A7CDA14006E; Tue, 11 May 1999 21:38:53 -0600 > Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.05 #1) > id 10hPrB-0001Oc-00 > for hist_text-goout@lists.xmission.com; Tue, 11 May 1999 21:38:53 -0600 > Received: from [198.81.17.2] (helo=3Dimo12.mx.aol.com) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) > id 10hPr8-0001Mt-00 > for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Tue, 11 May 1999 21:38:51 -0600 > Received: from RR1LA@aol.com (8001) > by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id fTCBa24272 > for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 23:22:10 -0400 (= EDT) > From: RR1LA@aol.com > Message-ID: > Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 23:22:10 EDT > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period recipes, drinks, camp life > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 9 > Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > X-RCPT-TO: > X-UIDL: 1424 > Status: U > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: RE: MtMan-List: slab bacon Date: 12 May 1999 15:56:01 -0600 Reply to: RE: MtMan-List: slab bacon What is the price? We get ours here in Pueblo, so would like to compare, DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants terry l landis wrote: >well i did some research and found that this is the lowest priced slab i >could find . i don't know about the quality but i will find out soon I'm >ordering some for brigade. >here's the web address http://www.olesmoky.com/p_ham.htm there's lots >others out there. try a search for "slab bacon" i found 8-10 sites with >varying prices and amounts. >YMHS, > Terry Landis > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > > Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with = ESMTP > (SMTPD32-5.01) id A02B41E006A; Wed, 12 May 1999 13:02:03 -0600 > Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.05 #1) > id 10heFp-0003fl-00 > for hist_text-goout@lists.xmission.com; Wed, 12 May 1999 13:01:17 -0600 > Received: from [209.67.33.61] (helo=3Dm3.jersey.juno.com) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) > id 10heFm-0003fZ-00 > for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Wed, 12 May 1999 13:01:15 -0600 > Received: (from tllandis@juno.com) > by m3.jersey.juno.com (queuemail) id EAFK9262; Wed, 12 May 1999 15:00:= 04 EDT > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 12:01:10 -0700 > Subject: MtMan-List: slab bacon > Message-ID: <19990512.120114.-300855.0.tllandis@juno.com> > X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 > X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2,5-7 > X-Juno-Att: 0 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: terry l landis > Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > X-RCPT-TO: > X-UIDL: 1434 > Status: U > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: delis@aztec.asu.edu (BRUCE S. DE LIS) Subject: MtMan-List: Raw Horns Date: 12 May 1999 19:28:29 -0700 (MST) Need assistance and hoping someone on this list can point me in a direction. I have been looking for Raw Horns, suitable for making Powder & Primer Horns Set. I am looking for a source of mostly WHITE, with Amber, Brown, or last Choice Blac k tips to make a set of Primer & Powder Horns suitable for some Scrimshaw work. Do any of have a, or know of a source where I can purchase such Raw Horns. I do not want the horns of Mexican cattle as the wall thickness of these horns are thi n, as our friend south of the border don't feed their cattle well. Suggestions p lease.... Thanks, B ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: MtMan-List: Hudson's Bay Company Archives Date: 12 May 1999 22:34:13 -0400 Hey all. This came across another list.. It has come great sytuff.. I have spent WAY too much time perusing it.... HUDSON BAY ARCHIVES http://www.gov.mb.ca/chc/archives/hbca/index.html Dennis "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accouterments http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Raw Horns Date: 12 May 1999 20:43:12 -0700 (PDT) On Wed, 12 May 1999, BRUCE S. DE LIS wrote: > Need assistance and hoping someone on this list can point me in a direction. I > have been looking for Raw Horns, suitable for making Powder & Primer Horns Set. Bruce... Track of the Wolf www.trackofthewolf.com has 'em in thier latest catalog... Luck to Ye Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho NMLRA member 058863 email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period recipes, drinks, camp life Date: 12 May 1999 23:50:29 EDT In a message dated 99-05-11 23:39:59 EDT, you write: << a while back someone on the list posted an address for a smokehouse in Arkansas, called the Hillbilly or Arkansas Smokehouse maybe. >> Hillbilly Smokehouse: http://www.nwanet.com/Hillbilly/hillbilly.htm Excelent salt cured bacon. Will keep unrefrigirated & needs to be soaked before using to remove some of the salt. Also have excelent hams -- good as Grandad used to make back on the farm. Prices are not out of line either. NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Mountain Top Trading Company Date: 12 May 1999 21:48:38 -0700 (PDT) Just a note for prosperity.... Mountain Top Trading Company, owned and operated by Tony Roberts and his family... now has it's own website... has a lot of interesting things. For the interested, its... www.mountaintoptradingco.com Regards Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho NMLRA member 058863 email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John McKee" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period recipes, drinks, camp life.... off topic Date: 13 May 1999 06:44:34 -0500 In case you were not aware, Tony died last year of a brain tumor which some of us suspect was partly the cause of his over drinking. Long John #1677 -----Original Message----- >sorry for that bogus post: heres the recipe, and its a dandy..... > WOLF'S BREATH > 1 - 5TH OF SEAGRAMS V.O. > 1 - 5TH OF YUKON JACK > 1 - SMALL GRAND MARNIER > 1/2 GALLON APPLE CIDER > 3 - CINNAMON STICKS >Mix all ingredients in a gallon jug and allow to steep for as many days as >you have time. The longer it sits, the better it gets. This recipe came from >Tony MacLane, 'The Man Who Dances With Wood', which may account for how he >got the name... Enjoy, Barn. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Raw Horns Date: 13 May 1999 10:51:35 -0400 On Wed, 12 May 1999 20:43:12 -0700 (PDT) Lee Newbill writes: > > >On Wed, 12 May 1999, BRUCE S. DE LIS wrote: >Track of the Wolf www.trackofthewolf.com has 'em in thier latest >catalog... track gets them from Karl Wilborn in cedervill Ohio---go direct to the source---good quality and tell him what you want exactly and he will ship--- HAWK ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Raw Horns Date: 13 May 1999 10:45:57 -0400 On Wed, 12 May 1999 19:28:29 -0700 (MST) delis@aztec.asu.edu (BRUCE S. DE LIS) writes: >have been looking for Raw Horns, suitable for making Powder & Primer >Horns Set. >I am looking for a source of mostly WHITE, with Amber, Brown, or last >Choice Black tips to make a set of Primer & Powder Horns suitable for some >Scrimshaw work. Do any of have a, or know of a source I do >not want the horns of Mexican cattle as the wall thickness of these >horns are thin I have two sources but will push you toward the following give both of them a call and see if they have what you want. BEST SOURCE AND QUALITY: Karl Wilborn 5073 Townsley Rd. Cederville, ohio 45314 phone number is 1-513-766-5415 second source is the K. Company 123B lebby street pelzer S.C. 29669 Phone number is 1-864-947-2788 thats the best i can do---Karl has kits with plugs and raw horns---and horn supplies---good people you normally see him at friendship ever year---has flat and formed horns---tell him what you want and that is what you will get--if he doesnt have it he will tell you so--- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period recipes, drinks, camp life Date: 13 May 1999 10:53:30 -0400 On Wed, 12 May 1999 23:50:29 EDT NaugaMok@aol.com writes: >In a message dated 99-05-11 23:39:59 EDT, you write: > Arkansas, called the Hillbilly or Arkansas Smokehouse maybe. >> > >Hillbilly Smokehouse: >http://www.nwanet.com/Hillbilly/hillbilly.htm good stuff drop by there ever time i am in the area---hams and turkeys excelent all kinds of smoked stuff--- HAWK ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KC764@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Raw Horns Date: 13 May 1999 11:48:32 EDT There is a place in Laredo, Texas that gets them out of Mexico, very inexpensive. I will see if I can find their catalog. I have it somewhere. In the interim, you may contact the Chamber of Commerce, in Laredo and possibly come up with their name. Carp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period recipes, drinks, camp life.... off topic Date: 13 May 1999 13:07:14 EDT John, I'm not sure who your post was directed at, but feel it was in response to my post with the Wolf's Breath recipe. Given that Tony and I were best friends/brothers for 25 years before his untimely death, I can assure you his enjoyment (sometimes over-enjoyment) of the spirits started well (about 45 years) before his bout with cancer. In addition to spending almost every day with him after he got sick, prior to that, I'd seen him dance with the desert, dance with the water and after he started buxkskinning, dance with wood. Now I know every day he's dancing with the Lord. YHS, Ralph (Barney Fife) Rosen ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ikon@mindspring.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Raw Horns Date: 13 May 1999 17:07:30 -0400 (EDT) I sell steer, gemsbok, waterbuffalo, kudu, etc horns. Let me know what length you would like and I will get you a price. Pricing ranges for steer horns from $5.00 a pair to $125.00 a pair for the really large ones. I garauntee the horns that means if you get them and don't like them then send them back and I will refund your money. I have yet to do this since everyone has been satisfied. visit my info site at www.angelfire.com/ga/alionatemysister. Good Luck Frank V. Rago At 07:28 PM 5/12/99 -0700, you wrote: > > >Need assistance and hoping someone on this list can point me in a direction. I >have been looking for Raw Horns, suitable for making Powder & Primer Horns Set. >I am looking for a source of mostly WHITE, with Amber, Brown, or last Choice Blac >k tips to make a set of Primer & Powder Horns suitable for some Scrimshaw work. >Do any of have a, or know of a source where I can purchase such Raw Horns. I do >not want the horns of Mexican cattle as the wall thickness of these horns are thi >n, as our friend south of the border don't feed their cattle well. Suggestions p >lease.... > >Thanks, > >B > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: MtMan-List: RE: Off Topic: life in the 1500's Date: 13 May 1999 16:06:08 -0600 jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) wrote: >A friend sent me this and I thought it was interesting. If you don't like >the 1500's, hit the delete! And if anyone believes all that, I've got a trade gun to sell. It's going at the standard rate for guns: pile up the furs until you reach the top of the muzzle! Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: MtMan-List: Jockey caps & Rogers Rangers Date: 13 May 1999 17:49:40 -0600 I am researching the dress of Canadian voyageurs c. 1774-1821. One of the items of clothing that shows up on fur trade inventory lists is 'jockey caps', but I have nothing more than a guess as to what these caps looked like (i.e. like modern jockey's caps, which are shaped like baseball caps). On the web, I've found statements that Rogers Rangers wore jockey caps, but no descriptions of them. One web site noted that they were originally cut down from tricorns. Can anyone help me with a reliable description of the jockey caps worn by Rogers Rangers? Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Roberts Subject: MtMan-List: Black Walnut Date: 13 May 1999 20:30:47 -0400 Who (or where?) might supply black walnut hulls for dyeing? Thanks! Tom ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lee Cardon" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Black Walnut Date: 13 May 1999 18:34:19 -0700 Tom, Where are you that you don't have walnut trees growing somewhere nearby? Most of the people that have walnut trees in their yards, were more than happy to have me come by and pick as many as I wanted for free off of the ground... However, if you need some right away, you might try: Allegro Natural Dyes P.O. Box 7247 Boulder, Co 80306 (303) 247-0784 Or try a WWW search for "Natural Dye", or "Dye Stuff" Good luck, -Lee Cardon ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Black Walnut Date: 14 May 1999 00:00:45 EDT Almost any trapping supply house. If you need an address, contact me of list. TrapRJoe@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: EmmaPeel2@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period recipes, drinks, camp life.... Date: 14 May 1999 01:35:50 EDT Just what WAS in that Taos Lightning? Ive heard it was made at Turley's Mill and was basically whisky or grain alcohol with gunpowder! Is this true...and wouldnt that be toxic? (Heaven forbid they light up a corncob pipe..) Is it true that it was shipped all over the country? If so, wouldn't that have stopped in 1847? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Laura Rugel Glise Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period recipes, drinks, camp life.... Date: 14 May 1999 05:07:20 +0000 I've heard Aquardiente or "arwerdenty" referred to "Touse Lightning" or "Touse," but I've never heard about the gunpowder. I've also heard about a non-alcoholic beer known as spruce beer that was consumed, by Hudson's Bay Company men, to prevent scurvy. It was made by boiling spruce needles and adding molasses to the water. They let it set for a few days before drinking. Sounds dreadful. Cheers. Laura Glise Atlanta ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Raw Horns Date: 14 May 1999 07:45:59 -0600 I am looking for a kudo horn. It is for the Boy Scouts. Just a single horn, What is cost Thanks Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery check out our NEW WEB SITE: http://www.wy-biz.com/absarokawesterndesigns/index.html Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Lodgepole Furniture - Rawhide - Buffalo Robes - Costumes Metal Art - Custom Tanning - Leather - Gifts ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Blanket shirts Date: 14 May 1999 12:19:51 EDT Maybe this has been asked before, but I missed it. Can anyone document "blanket shirts"?? I've found numerous references for wool shirts, but always figured they were a lighter cloth than blanket material. I don't see any "blanket shirts" in the "Illustrated Encyclopedia of the American Revolution" or Rex Allen's sketch book on Miller's Art work. or in Beth Gilgun's "Tidings from the 18th Century". I recall reading nothing about them in Devoto or Chittenden or any of the first hand accounts Dean has listed for us to read. Are they a later development of -- say -- "Reservation era"? NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: PHD Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period recipes, drinks, camp life.... Date: 14 May 1999 16:31:28 -0400 (EDT) At 05:07 AM 5/14/99 +0000, you wrote: >I've heard Aquardiente or "arwerdenty" referred to "Touse Lightning" or >"Touse," but I've never heard about the gunpowder. > >I've also heard about a non-alcoholic beer known as spruce beer that was >consumed, by Hudson's Bay Company men, to prevent scurvy. It was made by >boiling spruce needles and adding molasses to the water. They let it >set for a few days before drinking. Sounds dreadful. > >Cheers. > >Laura Glise >Atlanta > >the spruce beer that I had had two taste.. top of keg was medicinely tasting the bottom was mellow like a stout...I'm glad to find out the headache the next morning wasn't a hangover:)...cheers to the british navy ..bottoms up ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: MtMan-List: Gun---Auto Control Off Topic Date: 14 May 1999 15:08:20 -0700 (PDT) Kick this around: This week I saw on TV that a man intentionally used his car to run down children in a school yard.He only got two of them, I guess he couldn't reload fast enough. I did not hear anyone mention "car control" WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE????? === George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > 1005 W.Donkey Ln. Marlow Ok. 73055 Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Htorr@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Gun---Auto Control Off Topic Date: 14 May 1999 20:53:48 EDT In a message dated 5/14/99 3:05:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time, gnoe39@yahoo.com writes: << This week I saw on TV that a man intentionally used his car to run down children in a school yard.He only got two of them, I guess he couldn't reload fast enough. I did not hear anyone mention "car control" WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE????? >> I hear there is a movement to restrict ownership of 1967 Cadillacs. There will also be a five day waiting period and a background investigation before you can buy one. Tom Orr ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "landis" Subject: MtMan-List: turtle shells Date: 14 May 1999 18:02:06 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BE9E33.E1301CE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Can anyone tell me where I might get a turtle shell roughly 8x10 or = 10x12? It is for someone who does 16th century role playing... thanks = Adam ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BE9E33.E1301CE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Can anyone tell me where I might get = a turtle=20 shell roughly 8x10 or 10x12?
It is for someone who does 16th = century role=20 playing... = thanks          =20 Adam
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BE9E33.E1301CE0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: period recipes, drinks, camp life.... Date: 14 May 1999 18:49:32 -0700 According to the folks at Gettsyburg Museum it was available after the big fight, some of the southern boys demanded enought gunpowder to make a brew before being moved to Federal encampments, per literature from this site! Buck > On Thu, 13 May 1999, EmmaPeel2@aol.com wrote: > > Just what WAS in that Taos Lightning? Ive heard it was made at Turley's Mill > and was basically whisky or grain alcohol with gunpowder! Is this true...and > wouldnt that be toxic? (Heaven forbid they light up a corncob pipe..) Is it > true that it was shipped all over the country? If so, wouldn't that have > stopped in 1847? Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blanket shirts Date: 15 May 1999 20:46:58 EDT Charels Deas paints a picture of "John Jakes" with what certaily appears to be shirt made from a red blanket with black stripes at each end. It was painted in 1844. Of course you must conisder the artist's license argument. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blanket shirts Date: 17 May 1999 09:14:18 -0600 NaugaMok@aol.com wrote: > Maybe this has been asked before, but I missed it. Can anyone document > "blanket shirts"?? For the Canadian fur trade, 1774-1821, I can document about a dozen different kinds of shirts, but I have seen neither blanket shirts nor shirts made from 'molton', which is a heavy fabric capots were often made from. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jockey caps & Rogers Rangers Date: 18 May 1999 21:44:14 EDT In a message dated 5/13/99 6:55:23 PM EST, agottfre@telusplanet.net writes: << On the web, I've found statements that Rogers Rangers wore jockey caps, but no descriptions of them. One web site noted that they were originally cut down from tricorns. Can anyone help me with a reliable description of the jockey caps worn by Rogers Rangers? Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net >> Sorry it took so long for a reply but lifes demands leave little time. In the Collector's Illustrated Encyclopedia of the American Revolution, George C. Neumann and Frank J. Kravic, page 143 there is a photo of an original "Jockey Cap" circa 1780-1800. On pages 141 & 142 are several other examples of the same type of Cap. Some are leather and some are felt/wool tar or laqured. All are are rounded top with a 'bill' that looks somewhat like a bill on a modern cap. In one case the bill is tipped up against the doomed crown. Another referance is to the 'American Dragoon Jockey Cap'. The same style of cap can be seen in "Sporting Art England 1700-1900", Stella A. Walker, 1972. On page 26 is the James Seymoour painting The Duke of Devonshire's Flying Childers with a Jockey Up dated 1740 which clearly shows the same kind of "Jockey Cap. The same cap appears again on the next page in the 1759 painting by George Stubbs entitled The Duke of Ricmond, His Brother Loard George Lennox and General Jones Out Hunting (read that Fox Hunting). Many other paintings of that and earlier periods show the same style cap. All were a doomed skull cap hardened to protect the head from blows from tree limbs or swords or falls. All have a bill that protrudes forward to shade the eyes well riding. I do not have any specifics about the caps used by Rogers Rangers but this may help you start you research. Your Humble Servant C.T. Oakes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: AMM-List: INDIAN SIGN LANGUAGE Date: 18 May 1999 20:22:29 -0500 > Folks there is a new Indian Sign Language Video Tape on the market. = It is " > Indian Sign Language with Larry Pendleton ". It gives a brief history = of > Sign Language, covers approximately 100 signs giving their meanings = and > uses. It also illustrates the differences in how the signs are given > according to the different reference sources. The cost of the tape is > $20.00 plus $3.25 for postage. If you are interested contact me off = line, > or by snail mail. My address is : > LARRY PENDLETON > RT. 1 BOX 87 > EDGEWOOD, TX. 75117 >=20 >=20 > -------------------- > Aux Ailments de Pays! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: AMM-List: INDIAN SIGN LANGUAGE Date: 18 May 1999 20:08:42 -0700 -----Original Message----- >Folks there is a new Indian Sign Language Video Tape on the market. It is " >Indian Sign Language with Larry Pendleton ". It gives a brief history of >Sign Language, covers approximately 100 signs giving their meanings and >uses. It also illustrates the differences in how the signs are given >according to the different reference sources. The cost of the tape is >$20.00 plus $3.25 for postage. If you are interested contact me off line, >or by snail mail. My address is : >LARRY PENDLETON >RT. 1 BOX 87 >EDGEWOOD, TX. 75117 > > >-------------------- >Aux Ailments de Pays! > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: delete from list Date: 18 May 1999 11:19:50 EDT I am sorry to say that I need to be deleted from the list. I simply havent had the time to keep up with all of the postings. thanks for all of the advice and for the entertainment. To HBC in Texas, I really appreciated your work on that documentary awhile back. Keep up the good work. To the rest of y'all, watch yer topknots and keep yer powder dry. Ymhs, Wade "Griz" Smith Meridian, Id. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: The Sweeneys Subject: MtMan-List:Razors Date: 19 May 1999 17:44:59 +0000 Hello camp, Does anyone know of a trader that sells authentic shaving kits for the 1800-1840 period? I know Dixie sells razors,but they have plastic handles. Nothing a fresh shave on those long treks to lift yer spirits.....Thanks in advance for any info. Mick Sierra Foothills ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: MtMan-List: Percussion Rifles "Dates" Date: 19 May 1999 07:33:25 -0700 (PDT) I bet this has been raked over the coals many times. But I am new to the list and have not seen it. What is the earliest dates to authenicate "Percussion Cap Rifles" in the mountains? I know I read Joe Meeks had one (about 1834) when the she Grizz got him. He said "the cap didn't go off and befor he could replace it she slapped it out of his hands." (And a little finger) I remember reading of earlier accounts of caps being made in Germany or Switzerland but don't know when they hit the mountains. Thanks: George === George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > 1005 W.Donkey Ln. Marlow Ok. 73055 Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Razors Date: 20 May 1999 22:08:16 -0400 The Sweeneys wrote: > Hello camp, > > Does anyone know of a trader that sells authentic shaving kits for the > 1800-1840 period? I know Dixie sells razors,but they have plastic handles. > Nothing a fresh shave on those long treks to lift yer spirits.....Thanks in > advance for any info. > > Mick > Sierra Foothills Was wondering if the plastic handles are riveted on similiar to a knife, and if they are, could they be replaced with something a bit more appropriate. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barbara Smith Subject: MtMan-List: Does anyone have a Goose Bay Workshops Catalog? Date: 20 May 1999 17:54:42 -0700 Klahowya Tillicum, Does anyone have a Goose Bay Workshops catalog handy? Their website doesn't give a complete catalog. I want to know the price for the small copper measuring tankard, tin lined. Thanks! YMDS, Tassee ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Razors Date: 20 May 1999 09:57:33 -0700 (PDT) Mick: Here in South Central Oklahoma, Many of the antique/collectible stores, you can buy folding straight razors. some have bone, horn, or tortise shell handles. Range from $15-$50.(reltively hard to find but might ask the dealer to watch for one) George --- The Sweeneys wrote: > > > Hello camp, > > Does anyone know of a trader that sells > authentic shaving kits for the > 1800-1840 period? I know Dixie sells razors,but they > have plastic handles. > Nothing a fresh shave on those long treks to lift > yer spirits.....Thanks in > advance for any info. > > Mick > Sierra Foothills > > === George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > 1005 W.Donkey Ln. Marlow Ok. 73055 Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Razors Date: 20 May 1999 12:35:39 EDT I have seen many razors in pawn shops that would work. TrapRJoe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: MtMan-List: Joe Meeks Date: 20 May 1999 06:51:35 -0700 (PDT) After reading up, I found it to be 1836 when Meeks had the tussel with the she Grizz. His "cap" went off, but the rifle did not. Befor he could replace it the Bear slaped the rifle out of his hands, Two cubs came up and as she turned to cuff them back he grabed his knife. Befor he could strike a blow she slapped it out of his hand, and a finger. she turned to a cub again and this time he grabbed his "hawk" and struck her behind the ear to the brain and killed her.(Or something close to that) Now how much earlier did "cappers" reach the mountains? George === George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > 1005 W.Donkey Ln. Marlow Ok. 73055 Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Razors Date: 19 May 1999 23:40:53 -0700 (PDT) On Wed, 19 May 1999, The Sweeneys wrote: > Does anyone know of a trader that sells authentic shaving kits for the > 1800-1840 period? I know Dixie sells razors,but they have plastic handles. > Nothing a fresh shave on those long treks to lift yer spirits.....Thanks in > advance for any info. Mick I ordered a nice, bone handled razor from Townsends... http://www.jastown.com/ Col. Ichabod Conk Products also does straight razors... though I've never checked what the handles ar made of... http://www.col-conk.com/straight.htm Regards Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho NMLRA member 058863 email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Duncan Macready Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Razors Date: 20 May 1999 17:56:29 +1200 Mick wrote: > Does anyone know of a trader that sells authentic shaving kits for the >1800-1840 period? I know Dixie sells razors,but they have plastic handles. >Nothing a fresh shave on those long treks to lift yer spirits.... > Try clicking on http://www.col-conk.com/straight.htm YMOS Cutfinger. Friendships made. Problems shared. Campfires across the Wilderness ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Razors Date: 19 May 1999 22:32:01 -0700 I'm sorry that I don't have the address anymore (lost favorite places Menu), but I did an internet search on straight razors and found a neat website which had a variety of these (among other things). I've swapped old handles on a new blade before... Wish I had more for you... Hardtack ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Mullen Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Razors Date: 19 May 1999 22:17:45 -0600 Mr. Sweeney, The best that I can recommend is from G. Gedney Godwin - The Sutler of Mount Misery. I purchased a bone handled razor and shaving kit and was very pleased. His prices are very reasonable and his quality superb. A small amount of stropping and you are ready to shave. Remember practice makes perfect. After the first major cut you learn what not to do. The bleeding usually stops within a couple of hours. ;-) Godwin has a site at the address below: http://www.gggodwin.com/ Hope this is of some assistance. YMHOS, David Mullen -- David Mullen 202 Mesa Verde Jemez Springs NM 87025 (505) 829-3212 email: dmullen@jemez.com The Sweeneys wrote: > > Hello camp, > > Does anyone know of a trader that sells authentic shaving kits for the > 1800-1840 period? I know Dixie sells razors,but they have plastic handles. > Nothing a fresh shave on those long treks to lift yer spirits.....Thanks in > advance for any info. > > Mick > Sierra Foothills ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Razors Date: 19 May 1999 23:58:00 EDT I have had some luck finding razors and/or complete kits at gun shows. In many cases the handles can be replaced and blades restored without a great deal of effort. yhs, Barn. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Razors Date: 20 May 1999 23:39:49 EDT Dave, So are we to call you David "Cut Throat" Mullen? Grins Todd ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Razors Date: 20 May 1999 22:15:11 -0700 I have been told that one does not want to learn on a worn razor. On the old , worn, ones the outside (from the handle) edge will be worn- this makes the edge not straight. I was advised to start learning with a new blade (straight) and it will wear to your usage. I have put old handles on new blades. I have a good article entitled 'The restoration & Use of the Straight Razor'. I will make a copy for those interested, contact me off list. Ya wanna here my shaving, stitches story.....? I was practicing shaving with my new straight razor at 11:30 pm on a sunday night. I was being very conscience of my face, the razor, the angle of attack , etc... I took a few scrapes, rinsed the razor, using one hand to stretch skin- the other to scrape whiskers, repeat, etc... during one dip in the sink with the razor- raising hand for stretch of skin.... I stuck that razor into the middle knuckle of my 'stretch' hand.... I had to tug it out... I saw right away that this new opening in my epidermis would not do... As I work as a mechanic, this new opening across my main knuckle would need a stitch , or two...(actually took 4). I gently woke my slumbering wife. Uh...Honey... she was not pleased.... we went to the emergency room... they were busy there..I said I would take care of it in the morning...They said had to be done now , or it will be too late to stitch & it needed stitching.... The nurse said' that's a clean cut, how'd you do it?' I said 'with a straight razor'...she said 'what were you doing with a straight razor?' I said 'I was shaving'... she said 'what were you shaving your knuckles for?'..... The Doc and I had the exact same conversation...... be careful with those straight razors..... It can be embarrassing.... Hardtack ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Does anyone have a Goose Bay Workshops Catalog? Date: 21 May 1999 05:30:15 -0700 The web site for Goose Bay Workshops is: http://www.teleport.com/~walking/goosebay/ The address is listed on the site, Peter Gobel doesn't have a computer, so I put up his web site and keep him informed of what I feel is needed for changes, correction, etc. to his site. In time we will enlarge it to the size of my web page. Buck Conner dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ __________________________________________ > On Thu, 20 May 1999, Barbara Smith wrote: > > Klahowya Tillicum, > > Does anyone have a Goose Bay Workshops catalog handy? Their website > doesn't give a complete catalog. I want to know the price for the small > copper measuring tankard, tin lined. > > Thanks! > > YMDS, > Tassee Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Razors Date: 21 May 1999 11:10:53 -0700 I am waiting on supplies for period straight razors, tin shaving mugs, brushes and soap, along with sharping stones and strops. Hope to have within a few weeks according two three suppliers, will then know the exact prices. Buck Conner dba/ Clark & Son Mercantile http://www.teleport.com/~walking/calrk/ ______________________________________________ > On Thu, 20 May 1999, George Noe wrote: > > Mick: > Here in South Central Oklahoma, Many of the antique/collectible > stores, you can buy folding straight razors. some have bone, horn, or > tortise shell handles. Range from $15-$50.(reltively hard to find but > might ask the dealer to watch for one) > George > --- The Sweeneys wrote: > > > > > > Hello camp, > > > > Does anyone know of a trader that sells > > authentic shaving kits for the > > 1800-1840 period? I know Dixie sells razors,but they > > have plastic handles. > > Nothing a fresh shave on those long treks to lift > > yer spirits.....Thanks in > > advance for any info. > > > > Mick > > Sierra Foothills > > > > > > === > George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > 1005 W.Donkey Ln. Marlow Ok. 73055 > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. > _____________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Razors Date: 21 May 1999 11:18:45 -0700 Sorry, fat fingered the key board. Clark & Son Mercantile http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ ______________________________________ On Fri, 21 May 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > > I am waiting on supplies for period straight razors, tin shaving mugs, brushes and soap, along with sharping stones and strops. > > Hope to have within a few weeks according two three suppliers, will then know the exact prices. > > Buck Conner > dba/ Clark & Son Mercantile > http://www.teleport.com/~walking/calrk/ > > ______________________________________________ On Thu, 20 May 1999, George Noe wrote: Hello camp, Does anyone know of a trader that sells authentic shaving kits for the 1800-1840 period? Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Woodbury Subject: MtMan-List: Tough Trip Through Paradise Date: 21 May 1999 11:26:58 -0700 I was wondering if anyone on the list is familiar with, or can offer your thoughts about the book "Tough Trip Through Paradise, 1878-1879," by Andrew Garcia (known as Squaw Kid), edited by Bennett H. Stein (Boston, 1967). I saw a reference to it recently (looking for Nez Perce information), and was fortunate to find a copy at the library. Looks to be a one-of-a-kind account of Montana Territory, and life among Plains tribes just as their old way of life was truly extinquished. I've just gotten started reading it, and can't put it down. David Woodbury Stanford University Press ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tough Trip Through Paradise Date: 21 May 1999 11:59:15 -0700 Excellent book. I have it in my own personal library. One tough old boy. I think I recall that they found his papers, written in longhand, in an old box either in his home or his daughters home. So evidently this isn't the only thing old Garcia wrote. It would be an interesting Montana Research Project for someone to find out if there's more of the same...just a tidbit for you rabid amateur historians out there. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Woodbury Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tough Trip Through Paradise Date: 21 May 1999 12:20:21 -0700 >I think I recall that they found his papers, written in longhand, in an >old box >either in his home or his daughters home. The editor says "In 1948 I found the manuscript from which this book was written. It was stored in dynamite boxes, packed solid in the heavy waxed paper that powder comes in -- several thousand pages of legal-sized paper, both handwritten and typed." Evidently there were a number of unfinished works which Stein distilled into "Tough Trip." --David ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tough Trip Through Paradise Date: 21 May 1999 15:35:33 EDT David, I have a copy and read it some years ago. It struck me as incredible, the difficult life the main character lead. He was a rugged individual. How much more so were the mountaineers of even earlier years? Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John W. Stephens" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tough Trip Through Paradise Date: 21 May 1999 13:44:30 -0700 Another interesting and perhaps complimentary book is "The Old North Trail" by Walter McClintock, who was adopted by Blackfoot Chief Mad Dog, and lived with them at the close of the 19th century. McClintock presents a sympathetic look at the "Life, Legends and Religion of the Blackfeet Indians." A different turn of viewpoint from, say, Osborne Russell. Hey David: Want to trade books when you are done? LRaY David Woodbury wrote: > > I was wondering if anyone on the list is familiar with, or can offer your > thoughts about the book "Tough Trip Through Paradise, 1878-1879," by Andrew > Garcia (known as Squaw Kid), edited by Bennett H. Stein (Boston, 1967). I > saw a reference to it recently (looking for Nez Perce information), and > was fortunate to find a copy at the library. Looks to be a one-of-a-kind > account of Montana Territory, and life among Plains tribes just as their > old way of life was truly extinquished. I've just gotten started reading > it, and can't put it down. > > David Woodbury > Stanford University Press -- =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= John Stephens, Primary Color, Irvine, CA 714-862-1751 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Woodbury Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tough Trip Through Paradise Date: 21 May 1999 15:03:14 -0700 Thanks for the tip on the McClintock book. I see there's a copy in my library, and will have a look at it. If you're not able to find the Garcia/Stein book down there, or via interlibrary loan, I am planning to purchase a copy for my personal library which I would be happy to loan you. On a quick web search of used book stores (http://www.bibliofind.com/), I noticed some paperbacks from the 1972 or 1988 printings floating around, though the hardcovers run from $50 into the hundreds (not unlike what Stanford would charge me to replace the copy I checked out). --David ============ LRay wrote: >Another interesting and perhaps complimentary book is "The Old North >Trail" by Walter McClintock, who was adopted by Blackfoot Chief Mad Dog, >and lived with them at the close of the 19th century. McClintock >presents a sympathetic look at the "Life, Legends and Religion of the >Blackfeet Indians." A different turn of viewpoint from, say, Osborne Russell. > >Hey David: Want to trade books when you are done? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John McKee" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Razors off topic Date: 21 May 1999 18:09:34 -0500 Damn son, we have just GOT to stick you with a new mountain name after that story!!! Nancy got a kick out of it too considering how many times I've cut myself. Long John -----Original Message----- >I have been told that one does not want to learn on a worn razor. On >the old , worn, ones the outside (from the handle) edge will be worn- >this makes the edge not straight. I was advised to start learning with a >new blade (straight) and it will wear to your usage. I have put old >handles on new blades. I have a good article entitled 'The restoration & >Use of the Straight Razor'. I will make a copy for those interested, >contact me off list. Ya wanna here my shaving, stitches story.....? > I was practicing shaving with my new straight razor at 11:30 pm on a >sunday night. I was being very conscience of my face, the razor, the >angle of attack , etc... I took a few scrapes, rinsed the razor, using >one hand to stretch skin- the other to scrape whiskers, repeat, etc... >during one dip in the sink with the razor- raising hand for stretch of >skin.... I stuck that razor into the middle knuckle of my 'stretch' >hand.... I had to tug it out... I saw right away that this new opening >in my epidermis would not do... As I work as a mechanic, this new >opening across my main knuckle would need a stitch , or two...(actually >took 4). I gently woke my slumbering wife. Uh...Honey... she was not >pleased.... we went to the emergency room... they were busy there..I >said I would take care of it in the morning...They said had to be done >now , or it will be too late to stitch & it needed stitching.... The >nurse said' that's a clean cut, how'd you do it?' I said 'with a >straight razor'...she said 'what were you doing with a straight razor?' >I said 'I was shaving'... she said 'what were you shaving your knuckles >for?'..... The Doc and I had the exact same conversation...... be >careful with those straight razors..... It can be embarrassing.... >Hardtack > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Shoshone Basin Rendezvous change; S. IDAHO Date: 21 May 1999 17:25:22 -0700 (PDT) Hi Ya'll For those in Idaho and the surrounding areas, the Shoshone Basin Rendezvous has had to change it's location due to late staying snow. New location is.... Go south from Twin Falls on either Blue Lakes Blvd to the shoshone Basin road, or take Hwy 93 to Shoshone basin Road. Turn right on Basin road and go 5 miles. Turn left at the road with rendezvous sign and go 2.8 miles to new location. There will be signs along the way to guide you. It's also posted on my website under BP Events. Regards Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho NMLRA member 058863 email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/7186 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Razors Date: 21 May 1999 19:43:00 -0500 Buck Might ye be bringing these items among your trading plunder at the RDV = in June? I have shaved my beard (but kept the moustaches) and I might = be interested in a purchase. That story about the cut finger doesn't = faze me much....I once cut the end of my nose with a safety razor. No = telling what I might have done with a straight razor. On second thought = maybe I should grow the beard back and not take any chances. Lanney ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Friday, May 21, 1999 1:10 PM > I am waiting on supplies for period straight razors, tin shaving mugs, = brushes and soap, along with sharping stones and strops. >=20 > Hope to have within a few weeks according two three suppliers, will = then know the exact prices. >=20 > Buck Conner > dba/ Clark & Son Mercantile > http://www.teleport.com/~walking/calrk/ >=20 > ______________________________________________ > > On Thu, 20 May 1999, George Noe wrote: > >=20 > > Mick: > > Here in South Central Oklahoma, Many of the antique/collectible > > stores, you can buy folding straight razors. some have bone, horn, = or > > tortise shell handles. Range from $15-$50.(reltively hard to find = but > > might ask the dealer to watch for one) > > George > > --- The Sweeneys wrote: > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > Hello camp, > > >=20 > > > Does anyone know of a trader that sells > > > authentic shaving kits for the > > > 1800-1840 period? I know Dixie sells razors,but they > > > have plastic handles. > > > Nothing a fresh shave on those long treks to lift > > > yer spirits.....Thanks in > > > advance for any info. > > >=20 > > > Mick > > > Sierra Foothills > > >=20 > > >=20 > >=20 > > =3D=3D=3D > > George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > 1005 = W.Donkey Ln. Marlow Ok. 73055 > > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. > > _____________________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com >=20 >=20 > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account = http://www.uswestmail.net >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WOODY4PAW@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: buffalo hides Date: 21 May 1999 22:42:55 EDT this is woody4paw i am intorested in your deer and elk hides i do 1750 interpretations for summer camps for kids and need hides for demonstrations!!!!!!!!!! thank you from new england ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Does anyone have a Goose Bay Workshops Catalog? Date: 21 May 1999 22:46:00 -0400 Barbara Smith wrote: > Klahowya Tillicum, > > Does anyone have a Goose Bay Workshops catalog handy? Their website > doesn't give a complete catalog. I want to know the price for the small > copper measuring tankard, tin lined. > > Thanks! > > YMDS, > Tassee I have the current (#5) catalog and have scoured it thoroughly but do not find anything exactly described as a "small copper measuring tankard". The closest I can find is a "tankard", 5" tall holding 32 oz for $45, or a "gill cup" 2" dia and 2" tall holding 1/2 cup for $25. There are plenty of items but none described as being for measuring. You may need to call. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Hardtack Recipe Date: 21 May 1999 20:33:13 -0700 Hi John, Here is the recipe you asked for: Hardtack-dated 1863, from the New Ulm Minnesota Militia (anything in ( ) is my personal notes on the recipe) 3 Cups Milk (I use raw milk, or buttermilk) 8 Cups Flour ( I use 3 cups whole wheat, 5 cups white unbleached) 2 tblspn sugar ( I use raw sugar) 1 tblspn salt 4 tblspn shortening Mix ingredients and roll out 1/4", cut squares 3" x 3" ( I use a spear bullet box for a cutter, two holes in bottom for fingers), punch holes with a wooden spoon handle (like a soda cracker), bake at 400dg for 35 minutes (to taste). If it will be consumed in a fairly short time you can bake less, it will be more chewy than crunchy. Store in a cloth sack, NOT a sealed container or it may mold. This will keep a long time. Some folks and most dogs enjoy this recipe. It is a 'fancy' hardtack, but then it came from a bunch of german farmers. A little History? New Ulm was involved in the Sioux uprising of 1862. The Sioux were being denied their food and annuity payments, etc... on the reservations. They noticed that the soldiers were all going away (civil war). Tensions were high= uprising. The indians rampaged across the plains killing approx. 450 people and destroyed an awful lot of property. New Ulm was attacked, and successfuly defended. The Indians then went to attack nearby Ft. Ridgely. After the defenders there discouraged the Indians, they returned to New Ulm. Again the inhabitants made a good defense. The conflict lasted 38 days before the Sioux were subdued. There was the largest mass hanging of some of the perpetrators in US History. There would have been more, but pres. Lincoln commuted many of the sentences. 38 Indians were hanged at once on a huge scaffold in Mankato, Mn. Some of my ancestors were among the defenders of new Ulm. Hardtack ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: EmmaPeel2@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Hardtack Recipe Date: 22 May 1999 00:56:46 EDT That sounds very much like my mother-in-law's shortbread recipe from Old Scotland. We found that keeping it in metal tins kept it fresh, else it became hard enough to break a toe (or a tooth) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bob Hannon" Subject: MtMan-List: Tough Trip Through Paradise Date: 22 May 1999 06:10:27 PDT David, I picked up a new paperback addiction of that book 7-8 years ago while on vacation at Two Medicine, Glacier Park. The little concession store at the campground was carrying it. What I recall most was Mr. Garcia's impression of the Big Hole battlefield. His Indian wife's recollection of the battle between the Nez Perce and Gibbon's troops. Also, he gave a really great description of the hard traveling over the mountains between the Big Hole and the Bitterroot River valley. Traveling route 93 over the Lost Trail Pass in my air conditioned car has never been the same! Made for good reading, always appreciate first hand accounts, will have read again! Bob Hannon _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Does anyone have a Goose Bay Workshops Catalog? Date: 22 May 1999 08:33:03 -0700 Barbara, Contact Peter from the information on his web site and he can make anything you want, the catalog is only a sample of what he does. He makes many many items that are not shown. If he showed everything in the catalog it would look like a Sears sales catalog at Christmas. Buck conner On Fri, 21 May 1999, Tom Roberts wrote: > > Barbara Smith wrote: > > > Klahowya Tillicum, > > > > Does anyone have a Goose Bay Workshops catalog handy? Their website > > doesn't give a complete catalog. I want to know the price for the small > > copper measuring tankard, tin lined. > > > > Thanks! > > > > YMDS, > > Tassee > > I have the current (#5) catalog and have scoured it thoroughly but do not > find anything exactly described as a "small copper measuring tankard". The > closest I can find is a "tankard", 5" tall holding 32 oz for $45, or a "gill > cup" 2" dia and 2" tall holding 1/2 cup for $25. There are plenty of items > but none described as being for measuring. You may need to call. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: MtMan-List: Taps(A little off topic) Date: 22 May 1999 18:19:24 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BEA47F.9F567D80 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000E_01BEA47F.9F5FA540" ------=_NextPart_001_000E_01BEA47F.9F5FA540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ladies and Gents: I have never sent an attachment befor. I don't know if this is allowded or not, but I found it = interesting. If this is not allowded, I am sure some one will let me know! =20 ------=_NextPart_001_000E_01BEA47F.9F5FA540 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ladies and Gents: I have never sent an = attachment
 befor. I don't know if this is allowded or = not, but I=20 found it interesting.
 If this is not allowded, I am sure some one = will let me=20 know!
 
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I was very glad to receive your attachment. Medicine Bear George Noe wrote: > Ladies and Gents: I have never sent an attachment befor. I don't know > if this is allowded or not, but I found it interesting. If this is not > allowded, I am sure some one will let me know! --------------F0B6D69DAD1A3066C00C5C43 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George,

Permitted or not, thank you for sharing.  I was very glad to receive your attachment.

Medicine Bear

George Noe wrote:

Ladies and Gents: I have never sent an attachment befor. I don't know if this is allowded or not, but I found it interesting. If this is not allowded, I am sure some one will let me know! 
--------------F0B6D69DAD1A3066C00C5C43-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Razors Date: 22 May 1999 22:28:06 -0700 Lanney Roux, Don't ye go wandering around the shinin mountains leaving body parts laying around fer me to go tripping over next year. That would be very inconsiderate of ye. Pendleton -----Original Message----- Buck Might ye be bringing these items among your trading plunder at the RDV in June? I have shaved my beard (but kept the moustaches) and I might be interested in a purchase. That story about the cut finger doesn't faze me much....I once cut the end of my nose with a safety razor. No telling what I might have done with a straight razor. On second thought maybe I should grow the beard back and not take any chances. Lanney ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, May 21, 1999 1:10 PM > I am waiting on supplies for period straight razors, tin shaving mugs, brushes and soap, along with sharping stones and strops. > > Hope to have within a few weeks according two three suppliers, will then know the exact prices. > > Buck Conner > dba/ Clark & Son Mercantile > http://www.teleport.com/~walking/calrk/ > > ______________________________________________ > > On Thu, 20 May 1999, George Noe wrote: > > > > Mick: > > Here in South Central Oklahoma, Many of the antique/collectible > > stores, you can buy folding straight razors. some have bone, horn, or > > tortise shell handles. Range from $15-$50.(reltively hard to find but > > might ask the dealer to watch for one) > > George > > --- The Sweeneys wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hello camp, > > > > > > Does anyone know of a trader that sells > > > authentic shaving kits for the > > > 1800-1840 period? I know Dixie sells razors,but they > > > have plastic handles. > > > Nothing a fresh shave on those long treks to lift > > > yer spirits.....Thanks in > > > advance for any info. > > > > > > Mick > > > Sierra Foothills > > > > > > > > > > === > > George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > 1005 W.Donkey Ln. Marlow Ok. 73055 > > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. > > _____________________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com > > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Razors Date: 22 May 1999 23:00:21 -0500 God forbid that. ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Sunday, May 23, 1999 12:28 AM > Lanney Roux, > Don't ye go wandering around the shinin mountains leaving body parts > laying around fer me to go tripping over next year. That would be = very > inconsiderate of ye. > Pendleton > -----Original Message----- > From: Ratcliff > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Friday, May 21, 1999 5:43 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Razors >=20 >=20 > Buck > Might ye be bringing these items among your trading plunder at the RDV = in > June? I have shaved my beard (but kept the moustaches) and I might be > interested in a purchase. That story about the cut finger doesn't = faze me > much....I once cut the end of my nose with a safety razor. No telling = what > I might have done with a straight razor. On second thought maybe I = should > grow the beard back and not take any chances. > Lanney > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Friday, May 21, 1999 1:10 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Razors >=20 >=20 > > I am waiting on supplies for period straight razors, tin shaving = mugs, > brushes and soap, along with sharping stones and strops. > > > > Hope to have within a few weeks according two three suppliers, will = then > know the exact prices. > > > > Buck Conner > > dba/ Clark & Son Mercantile > > http://www.teleport.com/~walking/calrk/ > > > > ______________________________________________ > > > On Thu, 20 May 1999, George Noe wrote: > > > > > > Mick: > > > Here in South Central Oklahoma, Many of the antique/collectible > > > stores, you can buy folding straight razors. some have bone, horn, = or > > > tortise shell handles. Range from $15-$50.(reltively hard to find = but > > > might ask the dealer to watch for one) > > > George > > > --- The Sweeneys wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello camp, > > > > > > > > Does anyone know of a trader that sells > > > > authentic shaving kits for the > > > > 1800-1840 period? I know Dixie sells razors,but they > > > > have plastic handles. > > > > Nothing a fresh shave on those long treks to lift > > > > yer spirits.....Thanks in > > > > advance for any info. > > > > > > > > Mick > > > > Sierra Foothills > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D > > > George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > 1005 > W.Donkey Ln. Marlow Ok. 73055 > > > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. > > > _____________________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com > > > > > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account = http://www.uswestmail.net > > >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: Mtman-List: Shaving Advice from an Ancient One Date: 23 May 1999 00:51:41 -0400 (EDT) " Ye shall not mar [shave off] the corners of thy beard " --- Moses (Ancient Mountain Men #0002) Leviticus 19:27; 21:5. [KJV] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: Mtman-List: August 1862 Sioux Uprising in Minnesota Date: 23 May 1999 01:24:28 -0400 (EDT) The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, Volume 5, pages 542-543 (Roy P. Basler, editor, Rutgers University Press, 1953), shows the transcript of the Presidential Order dated Executive Mansion, Washington, Dec.6, 1862 that authorized the executions for Dec.19. Lists the phonetic spelling of the names of the 39 condemned. President Lincoln had also mentioned "this Indian war" previously in his Dec.1 Annual Message to Congress (pages 525-526) noting "that from different sources ... a simultaneous attack was to be made upon the white settlements by all the tribes between the Mississippi river and the Rocky mountains". ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: National Treasure for sale. Date: 23 May 1999 09:58:32 -0700 Dear Editor, historical buff and reenacter, I wanted to bring this to you and your readers attention, as a part of our history may be sold and will never be available again as it is now. If you read this short article of my area history, and your history too, no matter your location if you live in America you should be concerned about this battle site. We have been trying to make everyone aware of the possible sale of a national treasure, have had little to no responce from our elected officials. Thank you Buck Conner ________________________________________________ THE PAOLI MASSACRE, WAS IT A MASSACRE ? by Buck Conner AMM Baker Party Colorado When friends find I had family at this site, they ask why was it called a "Massacre". Probably one reason this event was called a "Massacre", was the people murdered while sleeping in their blankets, not trained military personnel or not skilled in war, as were the men that did the deed. The largest part of them were local farmers and merchants that should have stayed home according to many of the local historians of this area. They were out classed by a long ways, compared to trained and field harden troops. My family owned a small farm next door to the Malvern Memorial Grounds (Paoli Massacre site) before and up until around 1937, at which time my father sold all but one acre of the original farm. There was where I was born, in the new stone house he built with the funds gotten from the sale of the farm. The family told us stories of this event when we were growing up of a one sided fight, of a young hot headed family member, that was stabbed while asleep in the barn some 400-500 yards away from the battle site and the family's claim that a known local "TORY" had done the deed, then bragged of it several weeks later in Berwyn, Pa., about 12 miles away. Friends of my family came to their aid as they were German Amish and wouldn't fight, caught the Tory weeks later and hung him from the same barn the family member was murdered in. The story goes, that one of the group cut off the Tory's male organs and placed them in his mouth for all to see and a warning what would happen to other Tories in the area. (not new to WW II, as told in school). My great Grand Father took great pride in telling us about this (we were about 4 or 5 years old at the time), and "how the body hung as a reminder to all, for several weeks or till the smell was more than they could handle." After the Paoli Massacre, General A. Wayne's aquired a new name (Mad Anthony Wayne), came about for action he took in fighting the British at Germantown, Pa., where he found them sleeping and burned them alive, those coming out of the fire were shot. I read one account that after the fight, General Washington sent him to the western frontier (NW Pa.). He was now not to be considered a Gentlemen for his actions in war! ________________________________ PLEASE TAKE NOTE OF A HISTORICAL SITE IN DANGER Save the Paoli Massacre Site Detail, "Battle of Paoli" by Xavier Della Gatta, 1782 On the night of September 20-21, 1777, in what is now the Borough of Malvern, Chester County, Pennsylvania, American soldiers under the command of Brigadier General Anthony Wayne were attacked and put to the bayonet by British soldiers under the command of Major General Charles Grey. As you may be aware, it was at this site that 53 of our first soldiers paid the highest price possible for the privilege of being called an American. For reasons that have been lost in history, these brave soldiers were not buried on the field of honor, but dragged across the property line and buried in what is now called The Paoli Memorial Grounds, although the site has always been revered locally, it has never received the national recognition it deserves because it has always been separated from the main part of the original battlefield. It is now possible that this can change! The borough of Malvern has been approached by the Malvern Preparatory School about the possibility of purchasing the property and creating a single historic park consisting of the 40-acre battlefield and the contiguous 22-acre Memorial Ground. Should this come to pass, for the first time in history, the battlefield where these men fought and died and the Sacred Ground where they are buried will become one. The director of the Bureau for Historic Places recently has made a determination of eligibility for this site to be listed on the National Register of Historic Places. This is expected to happen within a year. The price quoted by the Malvern Preparatory School for the property is two and a half million dollars. The question is, "where does a small town of 2,944 people get that kind of money?" The answer is that many patriotic persons raise the funds necessary to purchase the battlefield and place it in the Public Trust for permanent preservation and maintenance. The name of the corporation is "Paoli Battlefield Preservation Trust." Remember the young men who fought and died at this location were our first volunteers and our first veterans. What they did and where they did it need to be preserved and maintained as Hallowed Ground by and for the citizens for which they made their sacrifice. If you can help to make this happen, please contact Pat McGuigan, Borough Manager at (610) 644-2602, or send a contribution to: Paoli Battlefield Preservation Trust c/o Borough of Malvern Box 437 Malvern, PA 19355 Thank you for taking the time to read this and special thanks to the Paoli Battlefield Preservation Trust for letting us know of their needs. Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: National Treasure for sale. Date: 23 May 1999 10:19:44 -0700 Hey Buck, Thanks for the information, I'll take it to my VFW and a Vietnam group I belong to, know they'll be interested as will others. Thanks again. Turtle. PS Hell, I live in NW PA and hadn't heard about them wanting to sell the property, was there a few years ago, pretty moving. __________________________________________ > On Sun, 23 May 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > > Dear Editor, historical buff and reenacter, > > I wanted to bring this to you and your readers attention, as a part of our history may be sold and will never be available again as it is now. > > If you read this short article of my area history, and your history too, no matter your location if you live in America you should be concerned about this battle site. > > We have been trying to make everyone aware of the possible sale of a national treasure, have had little to no responce from our elected officials. > > Thank you > > Buck Conner > ________________________________________________ > THE PAOLI MASSACRE, WAS IT A MASSACRE ? > by Buck Conner > AMM Baker Party Colorado > > When friends find I had family at this site, they ask why was it called a "Massacre". Probably one reason this event was called a "Massacre", was the people murdered while sleeping in their blankets, not trained military personnel or not skilled in war, as were the men that did the deed. The largest part of them were local farmers and > merchants that should have stayed home according to many of the local historians of this area. They were out classed by a long ways, compared to trained and field harden troops. > > My family owned a small farm next door to the Malvern Memorial Grounds (Paoli Massacre site) before and up > until around 1937, at which time my father sold all but one acre of the original farm. > > There was where I was born, in the new stone house he built with the funds gotten from the sale of the farm. > > The family told us stories of this event when we were growing up of a one sided fight, of a young hot headed family member, that was stabbed while asleep in the barn some 400-500 yards away from the battle site and the family's claim that a known local "TORY" had done the deed, then bragged of it several weeks later in Berwyn, Pa., about 12 miles away. > > Friends of my family came to their aid as they were German Amish and wouldn't fight, caught the Tory weeks later and hung him from the same barn the family member was murdered in. The story goes, that one of the group cut off the Tory's male organs and placed them in his mouth for all to see and a warning what would happen to > other Tories in the area. (not new to WW II, as told in school). > > My great Grand Father took great pride in telling us about this (we were about 4 or 5 years old at the time), and "how the body hung as a reminder to all, for several weeks or till the smell was more than they could handle." > > After the Paoli Massacre, General A. Wayne's aquired a new name (Mad Anthony Wayne), came about for action he took in fighting the British at Germantown, Pa., where he found them sleeping and burned them alive, those coming out of the fire were shot. I read one account that after the fight, General Washington sent him to the western frontier (NW Pa.). He was now not to be considered a Gentlemen for his actions in war! > > ________________________________ > PLEASE TAKE NOTE OF A HISTORICAL SITE IN DANGER > > Save the Paoli Massacre Site Detail, "Battle of Paoli" by Xavier Della Gatta, 1782 On the night of September 20-21, 1777, in what is now the Borough of Malvern, Chester County, Pennsylvania, > American soldiers under the command of Brigadier General Anthony Wayne were attacked and put to the bayonet by British soldiers under the command of Major General Charles Grey. > > As you may be aware, it was at this site that 53 of our first soldiers paid the highest price possible for the privilege of being called an American. > > For reasons that have been lost in history, these brave soldiers were not buried on the field of honor, but dragged across the property line and buried in what is now called The Paoli Memorial Grounds, although the site has always been revered locally, it has never received the national recognition it deserves because it has always been separated from the main part of the original battlefield. > It is now possible that this can change! > > The borough of Malvern has been approached by the Malvern Preparatory School about the possibility of purchasing the property and creating a single historic park consisting of the 40-acre battlefield and the contiguous 22-acre Memorial Ground. > > Should this come to pass, for the first time in history, the battlefield where these men fought and died and the Sacred Ground where they are buried will become one. > > The director of the Bureau for Historic Places recently has made a determination of eligibility for this site to be listed on the National Register of Historic Places. This is expected to happen within a year. > > The price quoted by the Malvern Preparatory School for the property is two and a half million dollars. The question is, "where does a small town of 2,944 people get that kind of money?" The answer is that many patriotic persons raise the funds necessary to purchase the battlefield and place it in the Public Trust for permanent preservation and maintenance. > > The name of the corporation is "Paoli Battlefield Preservation Trust." > Remember the young men who fought and died at this location were our first volunteers and our first veterans. > > What they did and where they did it need to be preserved and maintained as Hallowed Ground by and for the citizens for which they made their sacrifice. > > If you can help to make this happen, please contact Pat McGuigan, Borough Manager at (610) 644-2602, or send a contribution to: > > Paoli Battlefield Preservation Trust > c/o Borough of Malvern > Box 437 > Malvern, PA 19355 > > Thank you for taking the time to read this and special thanks to the Paoli Battlefield Preservation Trust for letting us know of their needs. > > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: National Treasure for sale. Date: 23 May 1999 13:39:45 -0700 Thanks for the information, remember reading about this site and Wayne getting down and dirty after loosing his men, that's enought to make any leader go to extremes. I'll give this information to my VFW Post and the local paper, better news than hearing who slick willy took advantage. Where are our leaders heads at, to leave this site slip throw their fingers, and the veterans groups, just like Wayne's home - when the Japs brought it a few years ago. Powder Hawk Iowa Terrritory _________________ > On Sun, 23 May 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote: > > Hey Buck, > Thanks for the information, I'll take it to my VFW and a Vietnam group I belong to, know they'll be interested as will others. > Thanks again. > Turtle. > > PS > Hell, I live in NW PA and hadn't heard about them wanting to sell the property, was there a few years ago, pretty moving. > > __________________________________________ > > > On Sun, 23 May 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > > > > Dear Editor, historical buff and reenacter, > > > > I wanted to bring this to you and your readers attention, as a part of our history may be sold and will never be available again as it is now. > > > > If you read this short article of my area history, and your history too, no matter your location if you live in America you should be concerned about this battle site. > > > > We have been trying to make everyone aware of the possible sale of a national treasure, have had little to no responce from our elected officials. > > > > Thank you > > > > Buck Conner > > ________________________________________________ > > THE PAOLI MASSACRE, WAS IT A MASSACRE ? > > by Buck Conner > > AMM Baker Party Colorado > > > > When friends find I had family at this site, they ask why was it called a "Massacre". Probably one reason this event was called a "Massacre", was the people murdered while sleeping in their blankets, not trained military personnel or not skilled in war, as were the men that did the deed. The largest part of them were local farmers and > > merchants that should have stayed home according to many of the local historians of this area. They were out classed by a long ways, compared to trained and field harden troops. > > > > My family owned a small farm next door to the Malvern Memorial Grounds (Paoli Massacre site) before and up > > until around 1937, at which time my father sold all but one acre of the original farm. > > > > There was where I was born, in the new stone house he built with the funds gotten from the sale of the farm. > > > > The family told us stories of this event when we were growing up of a one sided fight, of a young hot headed family member, that was stabbed while asleep in the barn some 400-500 yards away from the battle site and the family's claim that a known local "TORY" had done the deed, then bragged of it several weeks later in Berwyn, Pa., about 12 miles away. > > > > Friends of my family came to their aid as they were German Amish and wouldn't fight, caught the Tory weeks later and hung him from the same barn the family member was murdered in. The story goes, that one of the group cut off the Tory's male organs and placed them in his mouth for all to see and a warning what would happen to > > other Tories in the area. (not new to WW II, as told in school). > > > > My great Grand Father took great pride in telling us about this (we were about 4 or 5 years old at the time), and "how the body hung as a reminder to all, for several weeks or till the smell was more than they could handle." > > > > After the Paoli Massacre, General A. Wayne's aquired a new name (Mad Anthony Wayne), came about for action he took in fighting the British at Germantown, Pa., where he found them sleeping and burned them alive, those coming out of the fire were shot. I read one account that after the fight, General Washington sent him to the western frontier (NW Pa.). He was now not to be considered a Gentlemen for his actions in war! > > > > ________________________________ > > PLEASE TAKE NOTE OF A HISTORICAL SITE IN DANGER > > > > Save the Paoli Massacre Site Detail, "Battle of Paoli" by Xavier Della Gatta, 1782 On the night of September 20-21, 1777, in what is now the Borough of Malvern, Chester County, Pennsylvania, > > American soldiers under the command of Brigadier General Anthony Wayne were attacked and put to the bayonet by British soldiers under the command of Major General Charles Grey. > > > > As you may be aware, it was at this site that 53 of our first soldiers paid the highest price possible for the privilege of being called an American. > > > > For reasons that have been lost in history, these brave soldiers were not buried on the field of honor, but dragged across the property line and buried in what is now called The Paoli Memorial Grounds, although the site has always been revered locally, it has never received the national recognition it deserves because it has always been separated from the main part of the original battlefield. > > It is now possible that this can change! > > > > The borough of Malvern has been approached by the Malvern Preparatory School about the possibility of purchasing the property and creating a single historic park consisting of the 40-acre battlefield and the contiguous 22-acre Memorial Ground. > > > > Should this come to pass, for the first time in history, the battlefield where these men fought and died and the Sacred Ground where they are buried will become one. > > > > The director of the Bureau for Historic Places recently has made a determination of eligibility for this site to be listed on the National Register of Historic Places. This is expected to happen within a year. > > > > The price quoted by the Malvern Preparatory School for the property is two and a half million dollars. The question is, "where does a small town of 2,944 people get that kind of money?" The answer is that many patriotic persons raise the funds necessary to purchase the battlefield and place it in the Public Trust for permanent preservation and maintenance. > > > > The name of the corporation is "Paoli Battlefield Preservation Trust." > > Remember the young men who fought and died at this location were our first volunteers and our first veterans. > > > > What they did and where they did it need to be preserved and maintained as Hallowed Ground by and for the citizens for which they made their sacrifice. > > > > If you can help to make this happen, please contact Pat McGuigan, Borough Manager at (610) 644-2602, or send a contribution to: > > > > Paoli Battlefield Preservation Trust > > c/o Borough of Malvern > > Box 437 > > Malvern, PA 19355 > > > > Thank you for taking the time to read this and special thanks to the Paoli Battlefield Preservation Trust for letting us know of their needs. > > > > > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: National Treasure for sale. Date: 23 May 1999 15:45:45 -0700 Thanks for the help, the more we let folks know the more pressure could be put on someone or some group to carry the ball. I've written to the VA, VFW and a number of officals of government. I always questioned where Anthony Wayne got the name MAD, (he had a coat that when worn inside out looked like a British Officer's coat, normal side was that of an American Officer). Right after the Paoli affair he escaped marching a group of British Regulars out of Malvern and was called crazy (mad) at that time for such a daring feat. At Germantown a short period later after Paoli, he and his men surround an encampment of British Regulars settled in for the night, they collected lamp oil and any oil that would burn. Soaked the outer edges around the camp and then started a circle of fire. Anyone coming out of the circle of fire was shot according to several accounts, those remaining died a terrible death. That's when Washington sent him and the men involved to the western frontier, no longer considered gentlemen. Sounded like a good plan to me, at least Wayne could win battles, that's more than Washington could say on most of his engagements. Later Buck conner dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ _________________________________________ > On Sun, 23 May 1999, powderhawk@uswestmail.net wrote: > > Thanks for the information, remember reading about this site and Wayne getting down and dirty after loosing his men, that's enought to make any leader go to extremes. > > I'll give this information to my VFW Post and the local paper, better news than hearing who slick willy took advantage. > > Where are our leaders heads at, to leave this site slip throw their fingers, and the veterans groups, just like Wayne's home - when the Japs brought it a few years ago. > > Powder Hawk > Iowa Terrritory > _________________ > > On Sun, 23 May 1999, turtle@uswestmail.net wrote: > > > > Hey Buck, > > Thanks for the information, I'll take it to my VFW and a Vietnam group I belong to, know they'll be interested as will others. > > Thanks again. > > Turtle. > > > > PS > > Hell, I live in NW PA and hadn't heard about them wanting to sell the property, was there a few years ago, pretty moving. > > > > __________________________________________ > > > > > On Sun, 23 May 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > > > > > > Dear Editor, historical buff and reenacter, > > > > > > I wanted to bring this to you and your readers attention, as a part of our history may be sold and will never be available again as it is now. > > > > > > If you read this short article of my area history, and your history too, no matter your location if you live in America you should be concerned about this battle site. > > > > > > We have been trying to make everyone aware of the possible sale of a national treasure, have had little to no responce from our elected officials. > > > > > > Thank you > > > > > > Buck Conner > > > ________________________________________________ > > > THE PAOLI MASSACRE, WAS IT A MASSACRE ? > > > by Buck Conner > > > AMM Baker Party Colorado > > > > > > When friends find I had family at this site, they ask why was it called a "Massacre". Probably one reason this event was called a "Massacre", was the people murdered while sleeping in their blankets, not trained military personnel or not skilled in war, as were the men that did the deed. The largest part of them were local farmers and > > > merchants that should have stayed home according to many of the local historians of this area. They were out classed by a long ways, compared to trained and field harden troops. > > > > > > My family owned a small farm next door to the Malvern Memorial Grounds (Paoli Massacre site) before and up > > > until around 1937, at which time my father sold all but one acre of the original farm. > > > > > > There was where I was born, in the new stone house he built with the funds gotten from the sale of the farm. > > > > > > The family told us stories of this event when we were growing up of a one sided fight, of a young hot headed family member, that was stabbed while asleep in the barn some 400-500 yards away from the battle site and the family's claim that a known local "TORY" had done the deed, then bragged of it several weeks later in Berwyn, Pa., about 12 miles away. > > > > > > Friends of my family came to their aid as they were German Amish and wouldn't fight, caught the Tory weeks later and hung him from the same barn the family member was murdered in. The story goes, that one of the group cut off the Tory's male organs and placed them in his mouth for all to see and a warning what would happen to > > > other Tories in the area. (not new to WW II, as told in school). > > > > > > My great Grand Father took great pride in telling us about this (we were about 4 or 5 years old at the time), and "how the body hung as a reminder to all, for several weeks or till the smell was more than they could handle." > > > > > > After the Paoli Massacre, General A. Wayne's aquired a new name (Mad Anthony Wayne), came about for action he took in fighting the British at Germantown, Pa., where he found them sleeping and burned them alive, those coming out of the fire were shot. I read one account that after the fight, General Washington sent him to the western frontier (NW Pa.). He was now not to be considered a Gentlemen for his actions in war! > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > PLEASE TAKE NOTE OF A HISTORICAL SITE IN DANGER > > > > > > Save the Paoli Massacre Site Detail, "Battle of Paoli" by Xavier Della Gatta, 1782 On the night of September 20-21, 1777, in what is now the Borough of Malvern, Chester County, Pennsylvania, > > > American soldiers under the command of Brigadier General Anthony Wayne were attacked and put to the bayonet by British soldiers under the command of Major General Charles Grey. > > > > > > As you may be aware, it was at this site that 53 of our first soldiers paid the highest price possible for the privilege of being called an American. > > > > > > For reasons that have been lost in history, these brave soldiers were not buried on the field of honor, but dragged across the property line and buried in what is now called The Paoli Memorial Grounds, although the site has always been revered locally, it has never received the national recognition it deserves because it has always been separated from the main part of the original battlefield. > > > It is now possible that this can change! > > > > > > The borough of Malvern has been approached by the Malvern Preparatory School about the possibility of purchasing the property and creating a single historic park consisting of the 40-acre battlefield and the contiguous 22-acre Memorial Ground. > > > > > > Should this come to pass, for the first time in history, the battlefield where these men fought and died and the Sacred Ground where they are buried will become one. > > > > > > The director of the Bureau for Historic Places recently has made a determination of eligibility for this site to be listed on the National Register of Historic Places. This is expected to happen within a year. > > > > > > The price quoted by the Malvern Preparatory School for the property is two and a half million dollars. The question is, "where does a small town of 2,944 people get that kind of money?" The answer is that many patriotic persons raise the funds necessary to purchase the battlefield and place it in the Public Trust for permanent preservation and maintenance. > > > > > > The name of the corporation is "Paoli Battlefield Preservation Trust." > > > Remember the young men who fought and died at this location were our first volunteers and our first veterans. > > > > > > What they did and where they did it need to be preserved and maintained as Hallowed Ground by and for the citizens for which they made their sacrifice. > > > > > > If you can help to make this happen, please contact Pat McGuigan, Borough Manager at (610) 644-2602, or send a contribution to: > > > > > > Paoli Battlefield Preservation Trust > > > c/o Borough of Malvern > > > Box 437 > > > Malvern, PA 19355 > > > > > > Thank you for taking the time to read this and special thanks to the Paoli Battlefield Preservation Trust for letting us know of their needs. > > > > > > > > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > > > > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sidney Porter" Subject: MtMan-List: You know you're in Texas when... (off topic, but I couldn't resist) Date: 23 May 1999 21:38:11 -0700 For anyone who has never been to Texas in the summer, the first section of this is so true that it makes me want to leave now, before summer gets here. The rest is more tongue-in-cheek. You no longer associate bridges (or rivers) with water... You can say 110 degrees without fainting... You eat hot chilies to cool your mouth off... You can make instant sun tea... You learn that a seat belt makes a pretty good branding iron... The temperature drops below 95, you feel a bit chilly... You discover that in July, it takes only 2 fingers to drive your car... You discover that you can get a sunburn through your car window... You notice the best parking place is determined by shade instead of distance... Hot water now comes out of both taps... It's noon in July, kids are on summer vacation, and not one person is out on the streets... You actually burn your hand opening the car door... You break a sweat the instant you step outside...at 7:30 a.m. before work... No one would dream of putting vinyl upholstery in a car or not having air conditioning... Your biggest bicycle wreck fear is,"What if I get knocked out and end up lying on the pavement and cook to death"?... You realize that asphalt has a liquid state... It's so hot in Texas ...... The birds have to use pot holders to pull worms out of the ground. The potatoes cook underground and all you have to do to have lunch is to pull one out and add butter, salt and pepper. Farmers are feeding their chickens crushed ice to keep them from laying hard boiled eggs. It's so dry in Texas... The cows are giving evaporated milk and the trees are whistling' for the dogs. A sad Texan once prayed, "I wish it would rain - not so much for me cuz I've seen it - but for my 7-year-old." A visitor to Texas once asked, "Does it ever rain out here?" A rancher quickly answered "Yes, it does. Do you remember that part in the Bible where it rained for 40 days and 40 nights? The visitor replied, "Yes, I'm familiar with Noah's flood." "Well,"the rancher puffed up, we got bout two and a half inches during that spell." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "landis" Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: turtle shells Date: 24 May 1999 16:23:00 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01BEA601.B11E8CA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- Does anyone know where I might get a turtle shell in about the 8" or = 10" size. It is nedded to make a pouch kind of thingy to carry goods in.any info = will help. = Thank You Adam ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01BEA601.B11E8CA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 landis <aslandis@wa.freei.net>
To:=20 mountain men <hist_text@xmission.com>
= Date:=20 Wednesday, May 19, 1999 7:18 PM
Subject: turtle=20 shells

    Does anyone know = where I=20 might get a turtle shell in about the 8" or 10" = size.
It is nedded to make a pouch kind of = thingy to=20 carry goods in.any info will help.
          &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;       =20 Thank You     Adam
------=_NextPart_000_0036_01BEA601.B11E8CA0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MIA3WOLVES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: turtle shells Date: 25 May 1999 06:39:25 EDT Eidnes Furs in St. Maries, Idaho. Red Hawk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: PHD Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: turtle shells Date: 25 May 1999 15:59:06 -0400 (EDT) At 04:23 PM 5/24/99 -0700, you wrote: > >-----Original Message----- >From: landis >To: mountain men >Date: Wednesday, May 19, 1999 7:18 PM >Subject: turtle shells > > > Does anyone know where I might get a turtle shell in about the 8" or 10" size. >It is nedded to make a pouch kind of thingy to carry goods in.any info will help. > Thank You Adam > > > > > > > > >
 
>
-----Original Message-----
From: >landis <href="mailto:aslandis@wa.freei.net">aslandis@wa.freei.net>
To: >mountain men <href="mailto:hist_text@xmission.com">hist_text@xmission.com>
D ate: >Wednesday, May 19, 1999 7:18 PM
Subject: turtle >shells

>
    Does anyone know where I >might get a turtle shell in about the 8" or 10" size.
>
It is nedded to make a pouch kind of thingy to >carry goods in.any info will help.
>
size=2>           &n bsp;                         &nbs p;            &n bsp;                   >Thank You     Adam
>Hello list, I've found a free source for turtle shells !!!!! get in touch with your local high school biology teacher I got about twenty perfect sized shells Philip aka (Dummy) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Subject: MtMan-List: Art (OFF TOPIC) Date: 24 May 1999 21:05:53 -0700 Hello the camp, I have a friend who is a VERY gifted artist. She recently did a pen and ink for me from a few photos taken at rendezvous. The Mountain Man picture on this web page is what I now have hanging on my wall. The picture here does not do the work justice. There is red and blue in the blanket trim on my shirt that doesn't show here, but you get the idea. Her prices are very reasonable and she does work from photos which is convenient. I'm very happy with my picture and wanted to share this resource with you. There are other pages showing her work but this is the one showing her Mountain Man art. Medicine Bear http://www.zyworld.com/HozannaDesignsAGTY/Page3.htm ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Roberts Subject: MtMan-List: Indigo Dye Date: 26 May 1999 17:39:27 -0400 I will welcome the advice and warnings from anyone who has experience using indigo dye on osnaburg fabric, either on-list or off-list. Thanks, Tom ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: delis@aztec.asu.edu (BRUCE S. DE LIS) Subject: MtMan-List: Raw Dairy Cattle Horns Date: 26 May 1999 08:49:27 -0700 (MST) Still!!!, Seeking a source for Raw Horns suitable for making Skirmished Pow der & Primer Horn Set. I would hopping to be able to find Raw Horns from Dairy C attle, Mostly White with Amber, Brownish/Reddish, or last Choice Black Tips. Wan t Dairy Cattle Horns, as the Dairy Cattle produce the Best Quality Raw Horns, as they are on a consist diet, that cause their horns to be more consistent in overa ll wall thickness. If anyone is aware of a source of Raw Horn from Dairy Cattle, for making Powder Horns suitable for Scrimshaw please advise.. Online or e-mail me off line.... Thanks, B ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "john c. funk,jr" Subject: MtMan-List: Flint shotgun "kits" Date: 26 May 1999 07:14:49 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BEA747.714338A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello the camp, I'm looking for a manufacturer that produces flint, double = side-by-sides. Like the old Manton,s. Does anyone know of an outfit = that produces a quality (I hate to use the word) "kit"? John Funk ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BEA747.714338A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello the camp,
I'm looking for a manufacturer that produces flint, double=20 side-by-sides.  Like the old Manton,s.  Does anyone know of an = outfit=20 that produces a quality (I hate to use the word) "kit"?
John Funk
------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BEA747.714338A0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: James A Lindberg Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: turtle shells Date: 26 May 1999 07:51:11 -0500 Is there any documentation on turtle shells actually being used for "handbags" and such during the fur trade era? Thanks, Jim ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Carpenter, Ken" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Mtman-List: August 1862 Sioux Uprising in Minneso Date: 27 May 1999 20:30:07 -0700 -----Original Message----- Sent: Saturday, May 22, 1999 10:24 PM The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, Volume 5, pages 542-543 (Roy P. Basler, editor, Rutgers University Press, 1953), shows the transcript of the Presidential Order dated Executive Mansion, Washington, Dec.6, 1862 that authorized the executions for Dec.19. Lists the phonetic spelling of the names of the 39 condemned. President Lincoln had also mentioned "this Indian war" previously in his Dec.1 Annual Message to Congress (pages 525-526) noting "that from different sources ... a simultaneous attack was to be made upon the white settlements by all the tribes between the Mississippi river and the Rocky mountains". Try: http://www.alincolnassoc.com/ and: http://mel.lib.mi.us/government/GOV-historical.html - This is the home page. I found the reference to the uprising on this site. This a great site for searching for historical documents also. Carp ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Flint shotgun "kits" Date: 27 May 1999 14:54:34 -0700 Can't help on the "kit" aspect, but one of the "Most into Manton" gun makers I know is Steve Lodding's shop in Las Vegas. Unfortunately, I can't remember the exact name of his business for the phone listing. -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 7:15 AM Hello the camp, I'm looking for a manufacturer that produces flint, double side-by-sides. Like the old Manton,s. Does anyone know of an outfit that produces a quality (I hate to use the word) "kit"? John Funk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "john c. funk,jr" Subject: MtMan-List: Flint shotgun, Hellooooooooo !!! Date: 27 May 1999 07:54:03 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BEA816.16928300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK ! That didn't get much response. Does anyone know of a builder that = builds "flint" shotguns? I want a FLINT SHOTGUN !!!! I'd rather build it myself but I'll listen = to anything at this point. John Funk ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BEA816.16928300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
OK ! That didn't get much response.  Does anyone know of a = builder=20 that builds "flint" shotguns?
I want a FLINT SHOTGUN !!!!  I'd rather build it myself but = I'll=20 listen to anything at this point.
 
John Funk
------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BEA816.16928300-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Raw Dairy Cattle Horns Date: 27 May 1999 00:00:03 -0400 On Wed, 26 May 1999 08:49:27 -0700 (MST) delis@aztec.asu.edu (BRUCE S. DE LIS) writes: > > >Still!!!, Seeking a source for Raw Horns suitable for making >Skirmished Pow >der & Primer Horn Set. I would hopping to be able to find Raw Horns >from Dairy C >attle, Mostly White with Amber, Brownish/Reddish, or last Choice Black >Tips. BRUCE******** here is the addresses for quality scrimshaw horns that I have posted before ----suggest you give them a call--- primary source: Karl Wilborn 5073 Townsley rd ceaderville, ohio, 45314 1-513-766-5415 secondary source: the K. Company 128B Lebby st. Pelzer s.c. 29669 1-864-947-2788 both people advertise in muzzle blast---karl is known for his quality horns and flat horns---he is a major supplier to most of the other dealers out there and has horn kits which includes a turned and fitted plugs---he also sells raw horns but prefers to sell his kits and matched sets---his sets are outstanding and can be furnished with any color of tip that you might want---suggest you give him a call and you will find what you need--- =+= "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint shotgun "kits" Date: 27 May 1999 00:06:39 -0400 On Wed, 26 May 1999 07:14:49 -0700 "john c. funk,jr" writes: >Hello the camp, >I'm looking for a manufacturer that produces flint, double = >side-by-sides. Like the old Manton,s. Does anyone know of an outfit >= >that produces a quality (I hate to use the word) "kit"? >John Funk > John: not anyone out there that makes a kit but you can buy pieces---suggest you contact FFFG@juno.com he lives in helena montana and is big into the shotgunning --there was also another gentleman that i corresponded with that needed some info on chokeing and regulating a double shotgun if i can locate his e-mail address i will post it for you--- you are in a verry shallow market area and any flint shotgun you find is going to cost you some bucks---but on the other hand you will be getting quality---- there is a guy in North carolina that makes complete guns his first name is mike and his last name is inger but that isnt spelled right--will look thru my junk and see if i can find you some more info ---contact FFFg and see how he directs you--- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dennis Fisher Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Raw Dairy Cattle Horns Date: 26 May 1999 19:30:10 -0700 BRUCE S. DE LIS wrote: > Still!!!, Seeking a source for Raw Horns suitable for making Skirmished Pow > der & Primer Horn Set. I would hopping to be able to find Raw Horns from Dairy C > attle, Unless things have changed since I grew up on a farm, dairy cattle are normally dehorned at a young age. Hence, no horns. Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint shotgun "kits" Date: 26 May 1999 21:32:39 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01BEA7BF.47BFD920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John, There is a fellow in the Ft. Worth, TX. area who is building some = incredible side by sides. I don't know if he offers a " kit ". I can't = even recall his name, but I'll try to get the info for you. Pendleton -----Original Message----- From: john c. funk,jr To: history line Date: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 7:12 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Flint shotgun "kits" =20 =20 Hello the camp, I'm looking for a manufacturer that produces flint, double = side-by-sides. Like the old Manton,s. Does anyone know of an outfit = that produces a quality (I hate to use the word) "kit"? John Funk ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01BEA7BF.47BFD920 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
John,
  There = is a fellow in=20 the Ft. Worth, TX. area who is building some incredible side by = sides.  I=20 don't know if he offers a " kit ".  I can't even recall = his name,=20 but I'll try to get the info for you.
Pendleton
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 john c. funk,jr <j2hearts@shasta.com>
To:= =20 history line <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Wednesday, May 26, 1999 7:12 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: = Flint=20 shotgun "kits"

Hello the camp,
I'm looking for a manufacturer that produces flint, double=20 side-by-sides.  Like the old Manton,s.  Does anyone know = of an=20 outfit that produces a quality (I hate to use the word)=20 "kit"?
John Funk
------=_NextPart_000_003C_01BEA7BF.47BFD920-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mtman-List: sharpening razors Date: 28 May 1999 00:03:56 -0700 I just received my June 1999 issue of Muzzle Blasts. In it is an article on sharpening straight Razors. Thought this was interesting, as we have been talking about razors, and i had sent out some articles on razors. Check out Muzzle loader if you are interested in Straight razors. This is the best issue of M B In awhile, lots of good articles.. Hardtack ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Pierce Subject: MtMan-List: Mtman-List: sharpening razors, fire making Date: 28 May 1999 09:37:00 -0400 On Fri, 28 May 1999 00:03:56 -0700 randybublitz@juno.com writes: >I just received my June 1999 issue of Muzzle Blasts. In it is an >article on sharpening straight Razors. Thought this was interesting, >as we have been talking about razors, and i had sent out some articles >on razors. Check out Muzzle loader if you are interested in Straight >razors. This is the best issue of M B In awhile, lots of good >articles.. Hardtack HARDTACK: there is also a good article on fire making and flint and steel in this issue it might answer some questions for some of you guys---the write up's that R. Parker & cpt lathi did about 6 mo. ago and posted is much better and covers a broader span but i may be bias in my authors---R. Parker on 2-19-98 and CPT Lathi a bit later did sone of the best articles i have seen on the fire making-they told it like it is and easy to understand---both are good writers-----they even got into the different kinds of char and such---I follow their thoughts on this---natural stuff that was redily available--they wernt interested in making a 10 second fire as in compitition only getting one started in different conditions---in fire making compitition you got to think and of one strike of the steel and one blow or breath of air---start slow and build up the flow of air and hold the nest up and blow the fire into the nest---or you wont have the short time required for the match. good dry & proper materials is the key along with a flint &steel that will make crackeling sparks that will go from your waste to the floor. the sharp flint will make it happen---and set that punk to smokeing---I like the hemp or the inner bark of the red ceader the best because that is what is the easiest available for me in the areas that i am in most of the time for the nest but the western guys use other things that are available in their area---remember it must be as dry as possible---thats why my firebox is almost waterproof in the fit of the lid to the can---then i use the lid to hold my nest and not get it damp in wet weather I can repost R. Parkers article if anyone is interested its pretty good I think "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint shotgun, Hellooooooooo !!! Date: 28 May 1999 07:28:08 -0700 John, As others have stated double flint guns go high, I've sold originals in good shape in the $1500 to $2000 range, and poor condition ones as cheap as $750 that needed restocking. I picked up a reproduction gun a few years ago, in good condition, shot very little for $900, have seen Dixie Gun Works have a double once in a while (reproduction) in their Antique Gun Quartely in the $1500 to $2500 range. These weapons are costly no matter who built them. Later Buck Conner dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ _________________________________ On Thu, 27 May 1999, "john c. funk,jr" wrote: > > OK ! That didn't get much response. Does anyone know of a builder that builds "flint" shotguns? > > I want a FLINT SHOTGUN !!!! I'd rather build it myself but I'll listen to anything at this point. > > > > John Funk Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 18:51:57 -0500 Date: 28 May 1999 17:55:20 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BEA93B.291A32E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anybody have an opinion about the Museum of the Mountain Man in = Pinedale, Wyoming? I went last summer and thought they had a really = nice building. Lanney Ratcliff =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BEA93B.291A32E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Anybody have an opinion about the Museum of the Mountain Man in = Pinedale,=20 Wyoming?  I went last summer and thought they had a really nice=20 building.
Lanney Ratcliff 
------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BEA93B.291A32E0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint shotgun "kits" Date: 28 May 1999 20:04:47 EDT steve lodding is, IIRC, connected with JP Gunstocks in Nevada. They do built some ultra fine guns. check a muzzleloader mag for their ad. yhs, Barney Fife ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Laura Rugel Glise Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 18:51:57 -0500 Date: 28 May 1999 20:22:54 +0000 Pinedale, Wyoming I liked the gift shop and the book selection. A couple of years ago they had a special guest speaker, Michael Terry, in conjunction with their Rendezvous reenactment (cosponsored by the Wyoming Humanities Council). I have found some inaccuracies, but you have to admire them for their commitment. I personally prefer the Chadron Museum, there is no, NO, comparison. The museum in Pinedale is for tourists. The museum in Chadron is for scholars. Best wishes, Laura Glise Atlanta ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Straight Razors Date: 28 May 1999 23:26:12 EDT heres a good source Taylor's Trading Post, owned by Jim 'Turtle' Taylor out of San Diego, CA. E-mail is TurtleTaylor@earthlink.net; mailing is 2843 Deerpark Drive, San Diego CA 92110, phone (619) 276.1291. just saw Jim at a local rondy, and he had some beauty's. hope this helps, Barney. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "john c. funk,jr" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint shotgun "kits" Date: 29 May 1999 07:15:32 -0700 Pat, Mike, Larry, Buck & Barney, Thanks for the "flint"shotgun input. I will continue to research the possibilities with the information you've provided. I really prefer to 'do it myself' if possible. Been building guns for more than twenty years so I know it's possible.....if I can find a source for parts. I'm surprised that Track doesn't produce one. Will have to talk with Mark about the possibilities. As we all know, the double shotgun was somewhat prevalent in the early days carried by Bridger, Beckwourth, Carson (though he carried a percussion at times) and the like. Thanks again, John Funk ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, May 28, 1999 5:04 PM > steve lodding is, IIRC, connected with JP Gunstocks in Nevada. They do > built some ultra fine guns. check a muzzleloader mag for their ad. yhs, > Barney Fife > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: OT - GOV'T INTERFERENCE IN E-MAIL - THIS IS NO JOKE Date: 30 May 1999 03:25:58 EDT Dear Internet Subscriber: Please read the following carefully if you intend to stay online and continue using email: The last few months have revealed an alarming trend in the Government of the United States attempting to quietly push through legislation that will affect your use of the Internet. Under proposed legislation the U.S. Postal Service will be attempting to bilk email users out of "alternate postage fees". Bill 602P will permit the Federal Govt to charge a 5 cent surcharge on every email delivered, by billing Internet Service Providers at source. The consumer would then be billed in turn by the ISP. Washington D.C. lawyer Richard Stepp is working without pay to prevent this legislation from becoming law. The U.S. Postal Service is claiming that lost revenue due to the proliferation of email is costing nearly $230,000,000 in revenue per year. You may have noticed their recent ad campaign "There is nothing like a letter". Since the average citizen received about 10 pieces of email per day in 1998, the cost to the typical individual would be an additional 50 cents per day, or over $180 dollars per year, above and beyond their regular Internet costs. Note that this would be money paid directly to the U.S. Postal Service for a service they do not even provide. The whole point of the Internet is democracy and non-interference. If the federal government is permitted to tamper with our liberties by adding a surcharge to email, who knows where it will end. You are already paying an exorbitant price for snail mail because of bureacratic efficiency. It currently takes up to 6 days for a letter to be delivered from New York to Buffalo. If the U.S. Postal Service is allowed to tinker with email, it will mark the end of the "free" Internet in the United States. One congressman, Tony Schnell (r) has even suggested a "twenty to forty dollar per month surcharge on all Internet service" above and beyond the government's proposed email charges. Note that most of the major newspapers have ignored the story, the only exception being the Washingtonian which called the idea of email surcharge "a useful concept who's time has come" March 6th 1999 Editorial) Don't sit by and watch your freedoms erode away! Send this email to all Americans on your list and tell your friends and relatives to write to their congressman and say "No!" to Bill 602P. > Kate Turner Assistant to Richard Stepp, Berger, Stepp and Gorman Attorneys at Law 216 Concorde Street, Vienna, Va. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mkDragon Subject: MtMan-List: Yet another HOAX! Date: 30 May 1999 01:54:38 -0700 RR1LA@aol.com wrote: > > Dear Internet Subscriber: Please read the following carefully if you intend > to stay online and continue using email: The last few months have revealed an > alarming trend in the Government of the United States attempting to quietly > push through legislation that will affect your use of the Internet. Under > proposed legislation the U.S. Postal Service will be attempting to bilk email > users out of "alternate postage fees". Bill 602P will permit the Federal > Govt to charge a 5 cent surcharge on every email delivered, by billing > Internet Service > Providers at source. The consumer would then be billed in turn by the ISP. > Washington D.C. lawyer Richard Stepp is working without pay to prevent this > legislation from becoming law. The U.S. Postal Service is claiming that lost > revenue due to the proliferation of email is costing nearly $230,000,000 in > revenue per year. You may have noticed their recent ad campaign "There is > nothing like a letter". Since the average citizen received about 10 pieces of > email per day in 1998, the cost to the typical individual would be an > additional 50 cents per day, or over $180 dollars per year, above and beyond > their regular Internet costs. Note that this would be money paid directly to > the U.S. Postal > Service for a service they do not even provide. The whole point of the > Internet is democracy and non-interference. If the federal government is > permitted to tamper with our liberties by adding a surcharge to email, who > knows where it will end. You are already paying an exorbitant price for snail > mail because of bureacratic efficiency. It currently takes up to 6 days for a > letter to be delivered from New York to Buffalo. If the U.S. Postal Service > is allowed to tinker with email, it will mark the end of the "free" Internet > in the United States. > One congressman, Tony Schnell (r) has even suggested a "twenty to forty > dollar per month surcharge on all Internet service" above and beyond the > government's proposed email charges. Note that most of the major newspapers > have ignored the story, the only exception > being the Washingtonian which called the idea of email surcharge "a useful > concept who's time has come" March 6th 1999 Editorial) Don't sit by and > watch your freedoms erode away! Send this email to all Americans on your > list and tell your friends and relatives to write to their congressman and > say "No!" to Bill 602P. > > > Kate Turner Assistant to Richard Stepp, Berger, Stepp and Gorman > Attorneys at Law 216 Concorde Street, Vienna, Va. > > There is no Bill 602P. There is no law firm named Berger,Stepp and Gorman. This is a hoax taken from a Canadian hoax. Please check these things out with a Hoax site. There are many on the Web. I've seen this one about a dozen times this week. Sometimes they sure look real, don't they? Butch -- I don't want to be your lullaby. Michelle Kwan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joseph Miller Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT - GOV'T INTERFERENCE IN E-MAIL - THIS IS NO JOKE Date: 30 May 1999 03:29:47 +0000 historyList, A false rumor was sent to this list about a US Postal tax on Internet users: RR1LA@aol.com Sent: U.S. Postal Service will be attempting to bilk email users out of "alternate postage fees". Bill 602P will permit the Federal This one has its roots way back in 1997. The Institution has changed and the governments have changes but it is still an Urban Legend and FALSE INFO. Please, check out info before you pass it on to any list or anyone else. Check the US Congress bill number(Bill 602P) it is same as Canadian Bill(Bill 602P) below. Also, check out attorney and firm; Look familiar?? Save you from having Egg On Your Face. Joseeph Miller Go here to search Urban Legends that get passed around: http://www.urbanlegends.com/select.cgi?target=3Dsearch%2Fsearch.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D http://x2.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=3D483455437&CONTEXT=3D928055123.13249= 41392&hitnum=3D0 Post Office Charges for E-mail Vector.=A0=20 Author: Don Forum: alt.folklore.urban=20 The FALSE [3] rumour that the USPS [1] is going to start charging for e-mail [2] was an e-mail question asked to CNN correspondent Bob Franken this morning. They didn't either know the fact to debunk it, or didn't bother to anyway.=20 1: United States Postal service. 2: or Congress was going to impose a tax, or blind cave fish from the planet quagron are going to impose the tax, whatever. 3: This rumour is false, check out deja.com, better yet try http://www.exit109.com/~jeremy/news/deja.html as a means of searching the newer uglier deja.com we've done several extensive debunkings of this, and no it's not true. No it's not true in Canada either. Nope, not Australia either. Nope not there either. Not there either. PS The modem tax is false to. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Here is one first stating Canada was istituting an Internet tax --------- Canada Post charging for e-mail use...=A0=20 Author: Paul Fedorenko Forum: alt.folklore.urban http://x2.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=3D466551626&CONTEXT=3D928055404.13529= 25237&hitnum=3D1 Dear Internet Subscriber: > > Please read the following carefully if you intend to stay online and continue using email: > > The last few months have revealed an alarming trend in the Government of Canada attempting to quietly push through legislation that will affect your use of the Internet. Under proposed legislation Canada Post will be attempting to bilk email users out of "alternate postage fees". > > Bill 602P will permit the Federal Govt to charge a 5 cent surcharge on every email delivered, by billing Internet Service Providers at source. The consumer would then be billed in turn by the ISP. Toronto lawyer Richard Stepp QC is working without pay to prevent this legislation from becoming law. > > The Canada Post Corporation is claiming that lost revenue due to the proliferation of email is costing nearly $23,000,000 in revenue per year. You may have noticed Canada Post's recent ad campaign "There is nothing like a letter". Since the average citizen received about 10 pieces of email per day in 1998, the cost to the typical individual would be an additional 50 cents per day, or over $180 dollars per year, above and beyond their regular Internet costs. Note that this would be money paid directly to Canada Post for a service they do not even provide. > > The whole point of the Internet is democracy and non-interference. If the Canadian Government is permitted to tamper with our liberties by adding a surcharge to email, who knows where it will end. You are already paying an exhorbitant price for snail mail because of beaurocratic inefficiency. > > It currently takes up to 6 days for a letter to be delivered from Mississauga to Scarborough. If Canada Post Corporation is allowed to tinker with email, it will mark the end of the "free" Internet in Canada. One back-bencher, Liberal Tony Schnell (NB) has even suggested a "twenty to forty dollar per month surcharge on all Internet service" above and beyond the government's proposed email charges. Note that most of the major newspapers have ignored the story, the only exception being the Toronto Star that called the idea of email surcharge "a useful concept who's time has come" (March 6th 1999 Editorial) Don't sit by and watch your freedoms erode away! Send this email to all Canadians on your list and tell your friends and relatives to write to their MP and say=20 "No!" to Bill 602P. > > Kate Turner Assistant to Richard Stepp QC Berger, Stepp and Gorman Barristers at Law 216 Bay Street Toronto, ON MlL 3C6 --=20 Join the ABOUT COLORADO Discussion List-- mailto:aboutColorado@Colorado-Mall.com=20 Put Subscribe in SUBJECT Line -- Joseph Miller, Webmaster http://www.Colorado-Mall.com For information on leasing mall space mailto:leasing@Colorado-Mall.com=20 To be Happy, Joyous and Free Friends of Bill W. and Dr. Bob, Welcome! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Yet another HOAX! Date: 30 May 1999 07:38:21 -0500 Have you noticed that when the subject line has "This is no joke", or = something similar, that the likelyhood that it is a hoax is = expotientially greater? Just as when suspicious schemes (like chain = letters) say "This is perfectly legal", one can assume that they are = ILLEGAL. Most of these things are concocted by dweebs with no life (I = always imagine that they look like Jaba the Hut and are sitting in their = dirty underwear in a dark room---but they probably look like the kid = your kid is dating) who spend their time trying to create confusion and = panic on the net. Well meaning people are duped by their chicanery and = pass the information along with only the best of intentions. A little = egg on your face is a cheap enough price for the lesson learned. Been there, done that Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Sunday, May 30, 1999 3:54 AM > RR1LA@aol.com wrote: > >=20 > > Dear Internet Subscriber: Please read the following carefully if = you intend > > to stay online and continue using email: The last few months have = revealed an > > alarming trend in the Government of the United States attempting to = quietly > > push through legislation that will affect your use of the Internet. = Under > > proposed legislation the U.S. Postal Service will be attempting to = bilk email > > users out of "alternate postage fees". Bill 602P will permit the = Federal > > Govt to charge a 5 cent surcharge on every email delivered, by = billing > > Internet Service > > Providers at source. The consumer would then be billed in turn by = the ISP. > > Washington D.C. lawyer Richard Stepp is working without pay to = prevent this > > legislation from becoming law. The U.S. Postal Service is claiming = that lost > > revenue due to the proliferation of email is costing nearly = $230,000,000 in > > revenue per year. You may have noticed their recent ad campaign = "There is > > nothing like a letter". Since the average citizen received about 10 = pieces of > > email per day in 1998, the cost to the typical individual would be = an > > additional 50 cents per day, or over $180 dollars per year, above = and beyond > > their regular Internet costs. Note that this would be money paid = directly to > > the U.S. Postal > > Service for a service they do not even provide. The whole point of = the > > Internet is democracy and non-interference. If the federal = government is > > permitted to tamper with our liberties by adding a surcharge to = email, who > > knows where it will end. You are already paying an exorbitant price = for snail > > mail because of bureacratic efficiency. It currently takes up to 6 = days for a > > letter to be delivered from New York to Buffalo. If the U.S. Postal = Service > > is allowed to tinker with email, it will mark the end of the "free" = Internet > > in the United States. > > One congressman, Tony Schnell (r) has even suggested a "twenty to = forty > > dollar per month surcharge on all Internet service" above and = beyond the > > government's proposed email charges. Note that most of the major = newspapers > > have ignored the story, the only exception > > being the Washingtonian which called the idea of email surcharge "a = useful > > concept who's time has come" March 6th 1999 Editorial) Don't sit = by and > > watch your freedoms erode away! Send this email to all Americans on = your > > list and tell your friends and relatives to write to their = congressman and > > say "No!" to Bill 602P. > > > > > Kate Turner Assistant to Richard Stepp, Berger, Stepp and Gorman > > Attorneys at Law 216 Concorde Street, Vienna, Va. > > > >=20 > There is no Bill 602P. There is no law firm named Berger,Stepp > and Gorman. This is a hoax taken from a Canadian hoax. Please > check these things out with a Hoax site. There are many on the > Web. I've seen this one about a dozen times this week.=20 > Sometimes they sure look real, don't they? >=20 > Butch >=20 >=20 > --=20 > I don't want to be your lullaby. > Michelle Kwan >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MIA3WOLVES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT - GOV'T INTERFERENCE IN E-MAIL - THIS IS NO JOKE Date: 30 May 1999 09:43:25 EDT Recently, this was true. However, in the last two weeks I received a two page letter from my Congressman, Steve Chabot, thanking me for my interest in this issue. He advised me that congess has passed an act prohibiting any taxation on internet usage for the next two years.(sorry I cannot recall the name of the act and did not keep the letter) Also, I believe the major impetus for the tax was the telephone industry not the postal service. Red Hawk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT - e-mail hoax Date: 30 May 1999 15:17:24 EDT thanks for the info guys.... sorry about putting that out to the list without first checking the validity. Barney ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: Memorial Day 1999 / look back to 1805 Date: 31 May 1999 09:13:12 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format... ------------=_928167192-4319-1 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Good Morning and Good Memorial Day, By the way being Memorial Day 1999, Let's take a look at what our forefather's were up to on the Upper Missouri 1805. ________________________________________________________ Lewis's journal of May 20, 1805, decribes a "handsome river" which the capatins named Sacagawea, or Bird Woman's River. May 20th. The large creek which we passed..we Call Blowing fly Creek, from the emence quantities of those insects which geather on our meat in such nombers that we are obledged to brush them off what we eate. John Ordway. May 30th. Many circumstances indicate our near approach to a country whos climate differs considerably from that in which we have been for many months. [Clark names the Judith River in honor of a young girl back in Virginia he hoped to one day be his wife] The air of the open country is asstonishingly dry as well as pure. I found by several expeeriments that a table spoon of water exposed to the air in a saucer would evaporate in 36 hours...My inkstand so frequently becoming dry put me on this experiment. I also observed the well seasoned case of my sextant shrunk considerably and the joints opened. Meriwether Lewis. May 31st. We passed some very curious cliffs and rocky peaks, in a long range. Some of them 200 feet high and not more than eigth fett thick. They seem as if built by the hand of man, and are so numerous that they appear like the ruins of an acinet city. Patrick Gass. May 31st. In maney places...we observe on either Side of the river extraodanary walls of a black Semented Stone which appear to be regularly placed one Stone on the other..[T]hose walls Commence at the waters edge & in Some places meet at right angles. William Clark. May 31st. The hills and river Cliffs which we passed today exhibit a most romantic appearance...The bluffs of the river rise to the hight of from 2 to 300 feet and in most places nearly perpendicular; they are formed of remarkable white sandstone... The water in the course of time in decending from those hills and plains on either side of the river has trickled down the soft sand clifts and woarn it into a thousand grotesque figures, which with the help of a little immagination...are made to represnt eligant ranges of lofty freestone buildings, having their parapets well stocked with statuary... Meriwether Lewis. ______________________________________ Many of the brothers have made this trip from Ft. Benton passed Judith Landing and further south on the Upper Missouri, reading what has been stated almost 200 years before brings back fond memories of this land and what we have all seen - then and now. If you have never made this trip please write it down as a "must adventure to do", if you don't canoe (best way to see it) there are float trips available. Be sure to ask the US Forest Service for use of their "Guide Book" while making the trip, it really adds to the river with history and pictures, like Bodimer's, etc. painted in the early 1800's, and the landscape hasn't changed that much. Believe me you'll remember this water venture for years, period or not take a camera and a note pad - you'll make good use of both. Buck Conner Baker Party/Colorado Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------=_928167192-4319-1 Content-Type: text/plain; name="928166818.21362" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="928166818.21362" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Barry Conner <buck.conner@worldnet.att.net>
To: ammlist@lists.xmission.com <ammlist@lists.xmission.com>
Date: Monday, May 31, 1999 9:57 AM
Subject: AMM-List: RMemorial Day 1999 / look back to 1805

Bill & Brothers,
I will gather my notes, the Franklin pattern and put together an aarticle for a furture article, this type of unusal item is always fun to look into, like the breeches, air gun and the grenades.
____________________________________________
 
By the way being Memorial Day 1999, Let take a look at what our forefather's were up to on the Upper Missouri 1805.
 
Lewis's journal of May 20, 1805, decribes a "handsome river" which the capatins named Sacagawea, or Bird Woman's River.
 
May 20th. The large creek which we passed..we Call Blowing fly Creek, from the emence quantities of those insects which geather on our meat in such nombers that we are obledged to brush them off what we eate.           John Ordway.
 
May 30th. Many circumstances indicate our near approach to a country whos climate differs considerably from that in which we have been for many months. [Clark names the Judith River in honor of a young girl back in Virginia he hoped to one day be his wife] The air of the open country is asstonishingly dry as well as pure. I found by several expeeriments that a table spoon of water exposed to the air in a saucer would evaporate in 36 hours...My inkstand so frequently becoming dry put me on this experiment. I also observed the well seasoned case of my sextant shrunk considerably and the joints opened.     Meriwether Lewis.
 
May 31st. We passed some very curious cliffs and rocky peaks, in a long range. Some of them 200 feet high and not more than eigth fett thick. They seem as if built by the hand of man, and are so numerous that they appear like the ruins of an acinet city.    Patrick Gass.
 
May 31st. In maney places...we observe on either Side of the river extraodanary walls of a black Semented Stone which appear to be regularly placed one Stone on the other..[T]hose walls Commence at the waters edge & in Some places meet at right angles.     William Clark.
 
May 31st. The hills and river Cliffs which we passed today exhibit a most romantic appearance...The bluffs of the river rise to the hight of from 2 to 300 feet and in most places nearly perpendicular; they are formed of remarkable white sandstone...
   The water in the course of time in decending from those hills and plains on either side of the river has trickled down the soft sand clifts and woarn it into a thousand grotesque figures, which with the help of a little immagination...are made to represnt eligant ranges of lofty freestone buildings, having their parapets well stocked with statuary...          Meriwether Lewis.
 
______________________________________
 
Many of the brothers have made this trip from Ft. Benton passed Judith Landing and further south on the Upper Missouri, reading what has been stated almost 200 years before brings back fond memories of this land and what we have all seen - then and now.
 
If you have never made this trip please write it down as a "must adventure to do", if you don't canoe (best way to see it) there are float trips available. Be sure to ask the US Forest Service for use of their "Guide Book" while making the trip, it really adds to the river with history and pictures, like Bodimer's, etc. painted in the early 1800's, and the landscape hasn't changed that much. Believe me you'll remember this water venture for years, period or not take a camera and a note pad - you'll make good use of both.
 
Buck Conner
Baker Party/Colorado

Re: AMM-List: Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 18:51:

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Cunningham <bcunningham@gwe.net>
To: ammlist@lists.xmission.com <ammlist@lists.xmission.com>
Date: Monday, May 31, 1999 6:01 AM
Subject: Re: AMM-List: Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 18:51:57 -0500

>yea!
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Barry Conner <buck.conner@worldnet.att.net>
>To: ammlist@lists.xmission.com <ammlist@lists.xmission.com>
>Date: Sunday, May 30, 1999 2:55 PM
>Subject: Re: AMM-List: Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 18:51:57 -0500
>
>
>>You mentioning grenades, have you ever seen the pattern that Ben Franklin
>>came up with for making the outside shell for a grenade.
>>
>>According to Vern Bigsby (assn. director) at Valley Forge Park & Museum (30
>>years ago), the shell was made of sheet lead using Franklin's hexagon
>>pattern, which is a number of small hexagons folded into a softball size
>>container. They would fill the grenades with powder, broken glass and rusty
>>old nails, seal the hole with wax - the wick sticking out of the wax. They
>>wouldn't try to throw it because it was to heavy, instead they would roll
>it
>>down an incline into a sleeping camp (no documenation as to if they were
>>ever used). They had several at the Museum on display, along with the
>poison
>>rifle balls and some other unusal items that Mr. Franklin dreamed up for
>war
>>fair.
>>
>>I'll dig up the pattern for Bill, along with the information about this
>>unusal grenade for a short filler in T&LR.
>>
>>Later
>>YF&B
>>Buck Conner
>>Baker Party/Colorado
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: SWzypher@aol.com <SWzypher@aol.com>
>>To: ammlist@lists.xmission.com <ammlist@lists.xmission.com>
>>Date: Sunday, May 30, 1999 2:44 PM
>>Subject: Re: AMM-List: Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 18:51:57 -0500
>>>Lanney - there is one of those Civil War grenades in the museum at Stone
>>>Mountain, Georgia - close to Conyers and close to Atlanta.
>>>
>>>--------------------
>>>Aux Ailments de Pays!
------------=_928167192-4319-1-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Laura Rugel Glise Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Memorial Day 1999 / look back to 1805 Date: 31 May 1999 16:22:09 +0000 Thank you Mr. Conner, I always enjoy your posts and your web site. Laura Glise Atlanta ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Laura Rugel Glise Subject: MtMan-List: Eye wear Date: 31 May 1999 16:59:31 +0000 Would appreciate any suggestions on a vendor for time-period appropriate sunglasses. I have recently been fitted for contacts and I need sunglasses to wear this summer. Thank you in advance. Laura Glise Atlanta ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Eye wear Date: 31 May 1999 17:52:11 EDT Laura, One source to try is Ray Glazner (Images Of The Past) at glazner2@aol.com. He has a couple of different styles, and can give you the details. He's in CA right now, headed for his new home in WI the end of the week, so be patient in awaiting a response. Barn. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bill Jackson" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Memorial Day 1999 / look back to 1805 Date: 31 May 1999 15:03:54 PDT Aye, thanks for the post. You must have been reading my mind about Memorial Day. I was wondering about the Military men that could have been veterans of America's war. Best regards. Bill Jackson Dayton, Oh. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Memorial Day 1999 / look back to 1805 Date: 31 May 1999 15:57:52 -0700 Thank you for the comments, I try and hit all the Holidays with what was happening with the Corps of Discovery, some of their days aren't that much different than our today. Enjoying each others company and thankful for what they have. Later Buck Conner dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile > On Mon, 31 May 1999, Laura Rugel Glise wrote: > > Thank you Mr. Conner, I always enjoy your posts and your web site. > > Laura Glise > Atlanta Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Memorial Day 1999 / look back to 1805 Date: 31 May 1999 16:09:22 -0700 Buck, Just got in and checked the mail, was at my VFW Post after the parade, and we were wondering if you would send mail about L&C and the group. Several of us have saved all your posting for the holidays, we really do enjoy them and wanted to tell you to keep them coming, the 4th of July should be very interesting back then. Thanks for the effort, we seem to forget to let you guys know how much good you do with these interesting posting, plus a funny remark now and then makes it light reading. Turtle PA Colonies __________________ > On Mon, 31 May 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > > Good Morning and Good Memorial Day, > > > > By the way being Memorial Day 1999, Let's take a look at what our forefather's were up to on the Upper Missouri 1805. > > ________________________________________________________ > > > > Lewis's journal of May 20, 1805, decribes a "handsome river" which the capatins named Sacagawea, or Bird Woman's River. > > > > May 20th. The large creek which we passed..we Call Blowing fly Creek, from the emence quantities of those insects which geather on our meat in such nombers that we are obledged to brush them off what we eate. John Ordway. > > > > May 30th. Many circumstances indicate our near approach to a country whos climate differs considerably from that in which we have been for many months. [Clark names the Judith River in honor of a young girl back in Virginia he hoped to one day be his wife] The air of the open country is asstonishingly dry as well as pure. I found by several expeeriments that a table spoon of water exposed to the air in a saucer would evaporate in 36 hours...My inkstand so frequently becoming dry put me on this experiment. I also observed the well seasoned case of my sextant shrunk considerably and the joints opened. Meriwether Lewis. > > > > May 31st. We passed some very curious cliffs and rocky peaks, in a long range. Some of them 200 feet high and not more than eigth fett thick. They seem as if built by the hand of man, and are so numerous that they appear like the ruins of an acinet city. Patrick Gass. > > > > May 31st. In maney places...we observe on either Side of the river extraodanary walls of a black Semented Stone which appear to be regularly placed one Stone on the other..[T]hose walls Commence at the waters edge & in Some places meet at right angles. William Clark. > > > > May 31st. The hills and river Cliffs which we passed today exhibit a most romantic appearance...The bluffs of the river rise to the hight of from 2 to 300 feet and in most places nearly perpendicular; they are formed of remarkable white sandstone... > > > > The water in the course of time in decending from those hills and plains on either side of the river has trickled down the soft sand clifts and woarn it into a thousand grotesque figures, which with the help of a little immagination...are made to represnt eligant ranges of lofty freestone buildings, having their parapets well stocked with statuary... Meriwether Lewis. > > ______________________________________ > > > > Many of the brothers have made this trip from Ft. Benton passed Judith Landing and further south on the Upper Missouri, reading what has been stated almost 200 years before brings back fond memories of this land and what we have all seen - then and now. > > > > If you have never made this trip please write it down as a "must adventure to do", if you don't canoe (best way to see it) there are float trips available. Be sure to ask the US Forest Service for use of their "Guide Book" while making the trip, it really adds to the river with history and pictures, like Bodimer's, etc. painted in the early 1800's, and the landscape hasn't changed that much. Believe me you'll remember this water venture for years, period or not take a camera and a note pad - you'll make good use of both. > > > > Buck Conner > > Baker Party/Colorado > > Aux Ailments de Pays! > > > > > > > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: MtMan-List: correct eyeglasses Date: 31 May 1999 22:03:22 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BEABB1.663716C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Laura Rugel Glise Laura and others who might want correct eye wear (originals) try this site. They are pricey, but you get what you pay for. Originals are as close to correct as we will ever get. I bought a pair and they are as represented. There are also some tinted ones http://www.metiques.com/catalog/antiques.html Big John Southwest Ohio jhunt1@one.net ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BEABB1.663716C0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Ed Welch's Antiques - Catalog, Maine Antique Dealer Directory.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Ed Welch's Antiques - Catalog, Maine Antique Dealer Directory.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://www.metiques.com/catalog/antiques.html [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.metiques.com/catalog/antiques.html Modified=8064A6EBEAABBE01C9 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BEABB1.663716C0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WORPACH@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 18:51:57 -0500 Date: 31 May 1999 23:37:23 EDT Where is the Chadron Museum? I would like to go to a scholarly museum. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 18:51:57 -0500 Date: 31 May 1999 22:52:51 -0500 The Museum of the Fur Trade is in Chadron, in northwestern Nebraska = Try their web page at: http://www.furtrade.org/ Join up....it is the last great bargain in America. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Monday, May 31, 1999 10:37 PM > Where is the Chadron Museum? I would like to go to a scholarly = museum. >=20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "landis" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: turtle shells Date: 31 May 1999 21:40:38 -0700 the turtle shells are for a friend doing 16th century period,as I said in my first query. thanks to everyone who has helped with this. Adam -----Original Message----- >Is there any documentation on turtle shells actually being used for >"handbags" and such during the fur trade era? > >Thanks, > >Jim > >