From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blankets Date: 01 Nov 1999 05:28:39 -0600 I have tagged onto Dave Kanger's post because it has a lot of good= information many should read again, he is exactly right about it seeming colder when the temperature is on the cusp of freezing, and that mountain air is warmer, I never felt the chill in my bones in the mountains, like in the East even= when I'm warm. Buck has posted a lot of good information. Several other posts speak from being cold and learning how to stay warm. Pay attention, throw your down and synthetic sleeping bags away, they can kill you. =20 In the mid 70's I bought two Barron (I heard they're out of business now) 4pt & one 3 point and two Hudson Bay 4 pt. The Barrons are thin, threadbare, worn through and exist only as a few scraps for wrapping small bundles. I have recently replaced them with Whitney's and a C.J. Wilde attached itself to me about 15 years back. The Bays are still in my bedroll, they've never really been washed, wet many times. Whitney's are fluffier than Bay's a difference in the finish of the nap, I don't remember the Bays ever pilling as much as the Whitney's. A C.J. Wilde is a different "harder" surface and really looks= more like the finish I've seen on old blankets. Having two pretty worn Bays I'm pretty certain the old ones didn't just wear into all of the look they exhibit. =20 Double blankets were woven on factory blanket width looms. The cordage on= the loom allowed two full lengths to be woven without having to restring the= loom (a time consuming process I forget the official name for) one setup time was split between two blankets for cost reduction. The blankets were shipped= end to end. Some were, some weren't; torn in half when traded or issued. =20 By contrast many more looms were 40" + or - so the double length woven is= torn in half and stitched together on a center seam to provide the necessary width.=20 Coverlets and many other goods were made similarly. Body chemistry has a lot to do with how warm one sleeps, it can change. I have never been able to take as much cold since I had tick fever 25 years ago. When you live outdoors all the time you will acclimate and sleep warmer than when you venture out occasionally. If you are cold put something more under you rather than over, the cold from the ground is what chills. The most comfortable you'll ever sleep in the mountains is when you're riding and packing a couple of extra animals. All the saddle blankets go on the bottom and it do make a fine bed. =20 Sitting with your back against a tree works because less of you is in= contact with the ground, if you sit on a folded blanket or any form of insulation. like a log, it helps more. A tiny fire or candle between your feet and under the blanket with you can add a lot of warmth. be careful. Don't sit with your back against a rock or the earth. Breathing air warmed over the flame of a= candle held under a blanket tented over you -- can warm you more quickly when= you're chilled, a tiny smoke free fire at your feet is almost as good. =20 If you are shivering hypothermia is soon to follow and this can help right now. Get a candle or small fire lit while you can. Don't do anything else first. If you are alone and hypothermia sets in you ain't got long to live, depends on who you're with otherwise. Anyone who'd refuse to bundle a= brother suffering hypothermia, I don't want to share a camp or the mountains with. = =20 I like to fold the blankets inside a tight woven untreated tarp to help= break the wind. Don't wrap up in a waterproofed tarp or you'll sleep wet and= cold.=20 I've seen the more organized sew their blankets and tarps into various forms of an envelope, mount buttons & hand stitch button holes and or sew on buckskin ties. I kick my feet up and let the excess tuck under. Just get it all tucked around me good. =20 I can't over emphasize how important it is to have more under you than over you if you really want to sleep warm. Keep your blankets a little loose around you like the moccasin suggestion elsewhere in this thread for your feet. A 4 point today isn't quite as big as a 3 1/2 point relative to our average size so the experience is about the same now as then. To ask someone 7'= tall and/or approaching 400lbs, to consider anything but an 8 point is= ridiculous unless he just likes to make do with less coverage than we and suffer. My blankets fit me better 40 pounds ago. It would take a very brave, mean spirited, real fast, little scrawny guy to want someone that size to suffer.= =20 Anyone over 5'10" back then would have been thought a giant, there's a= couple of the brothers of mythical proportions now, they really need the biggest blanket they can get. If 12 pointers were made they deserve them. Pick the blanket size you are willing to carry that fits your need. For the question about the authenticity of a C.J. Wilde blanket. I don't= know how you can get much more authentic. Correct material, patterns and dyes, wood loom woven by hand in halves and joined with a center seam. Gee, they're= just like the old ones. I like Buck's idea of fulling them and think I'll try it on mine. Todays 6 point size is a simple double of a common loom width of the period and a 6 point Whitney or Bay is no better or bigger than a common= loom woven blanket of the period. =20 The old timers didn't find it necessary to cut the label off and I don't either. It's something they didn't do. It isn't relevant they didn't have= a label to cut off. There's nothing old to be learned in the exercise. They look good and work exactly the same either way. Unless you arrange the cold label to lay against your cheek. You must adapt to your environment. If you are in deep snow dig in and use the snow for insulation and shelter. If you are in the desert I assure you that you can freeze on a winter night after a hot sunny day if you don't do things right. =20 When you are traveling light with no snow pack with one or no blanket is= when the "fire pit bed" is best used. A small space between two or more large= rock faces is ideal. Back up against one dig your pit and build your fire, a= rock can work as a shovel. Build a deep bed of coal and ash then move the fire= to the other rock face and cover over your bed with plenty of dirt -- evenly.= =20 Keep the new fire burning and sleep warm through the night. Be conservative of your energy that wasted on unnecessary exertions that offer limited benefit= or unnecessary luxury can work against you, in extreme conditions it can kill you. If you have brush build an arbor, work with trees and downed timber, enclose yourself as best you can. Make do with what you've got and don't worry about what you don't have. =20 If you wrap in a canvas you can tie up the leading edge to reflect a long narrow fire you can reach out and feed all night. If you have feathery boughs to cut you can use them over and under you, because there are so many of us-and-them in this world: this is something I think we should reserve to true survival situations on public lands, and mostly make= do without the luxury. On occasion when we get on some private land that can stand a little thinning, then you can experiment with a luxurious bough bed.= =20 There are tricks to them. They're worth sleeping on many more than one night.=20 Fluff and refresh them daily. The thing that really got me seriously interested in the old ways was when= the finest modern mountaineering equipment failed me and nearly cost me my life= - twice. Wool blankets and canvas tarp have never put me at risk, over 25= years later. Every robe I ever had rotted away, damned heavy, mighty cozy. I was always worried about my robe (when I had one) I've never been concerned= about my wool blankets, wet or dry. Wet ain't as comfortable but, wool can keep= you alive if you keep your wits about you. I have been wet, cold and uncomfortable in wool, it's kept me alive and most often comfortable. A simple thing like throwing an oil treated canvas over the top to shed some heavy dew or rain can cause you to sleep cold. If you roll up in a tarp use untreated. Save the oilcloth for wrapping goods or a shelter. If you tie your bundles so they don't pool water and rig your shelter the same, untreated won't leak through on you. It's also lighter to pack and carry. If you sleep cold you should never lay down without a wool or fur cap on= your head. Blanket mocs are nice on the feet over wool socks. If a capote is= part of your bedroll use the hood. If you aren't warm in your clothes without cuddling a fire, you aren't likely to sleep warm with a blanket. As to sharing a bedroll, I have done most of my wandering alone so I've kept= a 100 lb dog handy through the years. Some nights two more would have been fine. If you heat stones to place in the foot of your bedroll. Choose them carefully. Some rocks hold heat better than others. Soap stone seems best, maybe that's why all the old ones (those 2" thick square and rectangular smooth flat stones with wire bail handles) were made of soapstone and called soapstones. They also make a great griddle over the fire. Whatever stone= you use wrap it well in multiple layers of heavy cloth before you place it in= your bed the heat will last longer, steam problems are reduced. Thick terry= cloth the size of a large bath towel works pretty good on soapstones. A hunk of blanket would work as well. =20 Note: the wrong stones can explode like a real bomb and hurt you if you put them in a fire. They can even set your bedroll or surrounding area on fire with widely scattered embers. Burning "kapok" (a 1957ish wonder material) cannot be fully extinguished with less than complete immersion in a river. = =20 There is a lot more information on blankets in the List Archives, those new= to the list should read through the archives fully, I did before I posted my first word. I'll pose a question the answer to which is in the archives to begin the search. =20 How long is a nail? It is one specific unit of measure related to this subject in a general sort of way. Those who already know or remember keep quiet someone may have some fun and find out something they didn't even know they didn't know, while reading the archive. http://www.xmission.com /~drudy/mtman/maillist.html John... At 09:58 PM 10/30/99 -0400, you wrote: >>>Several others knowing it was going to go to a possible -10/15 degrees=20 >brought >>that much or more, I think three of us slept good, a couple where= =20 >cold and one >>sat up and kept a fire going most of the night.=20 >>> Pat with the buff robe faired the best with less heat loss due to the hide=20 >and hair >>of the robe. You could see the steam coming up off that lump in= =20 >the snow. > >Have slept out in -25 degree weather.=A0 There are a couple of other good= =20 >reasons why some get cold and others don't.=A0 Most are the person's own= fault. > >1. You need to go to bed warm, dry, and have enough calories in your system= =20 >to get you through the night.=A0 Eat a late supper with plenty of fat in= it.=A0=20 >Go for a walk to get your blood circulating, then change your dry clothes and=20 >turn in. > >2.=A0 You need to stay away from the fire.=A0 Most guys that are fire-sitte= rs are=20 >always cold.=A0 You sweat more than you know when it is cold, but you don't= =20 >notice it.=A0 Sitting by the fire will get you all sweated up.=A0 You turn = in and=20 >your clothing cools off and you get cold. > >3.=A0 You need bedding that will pass moisture.=A0 If you sleep with your= head=20 >under the covers, your breath will get everything damp.=A0 When it cools= off,=20 >you will get cold.=A0 Best thing is to crawl into your blankets and then= put a=20 >small blanket over your head and face.=A0 That keeps your breath out of= your=20 >main bedding. > >I find that I get colder when it is 30 to 35 degrees than when it is below= =20 >zero. >Slept in a snow cave once.=A0 I had to throw off the blankets because I was= =20 >sweating, yet the side of my face that was against the floor froze.=A0 My teeth=20 >were numb for 2 days on that side. > >I guess others get acclimated to cold weather better.=A0 I always liked= cold=20 >better than hot.=A0 When I was a kid, we had a screened in porch with a day bed=20 >on it.=A0 I slept outside on it from spring until the end of November, so I= =20 >guess I grew up used to the cold.=A0 For some reason, I always found= western=20 >mountain air to be warmer than eastern air....at the same temperature.=A0 Maybe=20 >cause mountain air has less humidity in it. > >Dave Kanger > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/ ~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Stephens Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blankets Date: 01 Nov 1999 04:50:57 -0800 Gee, I thought that "spoonin'" was the more traditional mode of keeping warm. Wasn't it Louis Gerrard who wrote of using this method and then finding out that his partner had a problem with lice? And of course the usual method of cleaning up lice only worked during the warm season. B'st'rd ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: > > > Quit callin' me "Mr." And I am just shootin in the dark to see what > > happens.. I am curious like that.. Are you SURE it was back to back??? > > Dennis, > If there was only two of them and it was dark, we will never know......but if > there were three, then someone was a gettin' the shaft. Which one of them > guys always walks around with a big smile on his face? > > OldFox ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: Johnson/Johnston & cold Date: 01 Nov 1999 07:02:16 -0600 I want to thank everyone for their responses on the John Johnson/Johnston books. Guess I will just have to read all of them now. Also now I wonder if I ever really want to know the truth, the legend might just be more fascinating. About cold. There is cold and there is other types of cold. Where I live in the Arkansas Ozarks, there are winter and early spring days where the temp. is about 30 degrees and sometimes you just cannot wear enough clothes, modern or period, to keep warm. But I have been in other parts of the U.S., wearing less when the temp. was about 0 and stayed comfortable. Dampness can penetrate like spikes. And, I am yet to find period correct footwear that will keep feet warm and dry when walking through semi-frozen slush and mud. Would rather walk on solidly frozen ground or snow anytime. Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blankets & Movie Jeremiah Johnson Date: 01 Nov 1999 09:03:56 -0600 The hard part would be to dig the frozen ground. Jim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Glenn Darilek Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blankets Date: 01 Nov 1999 09:12:14 -0600 I do remember a part of Garrard where he and another were sharing their robes for warmth. They got snowed on a lot, and Garrard made the mistake of raising his head. The snow flowed under his head. He couldn't convince his partner to get out of the bed to get the snow out, so he spent the rest of the night using a snow pillow. Glenn Darilek Iron Burner John Stephens wrote: > > Gee, I thought that "spoonin'" was the more traditional mode of keeping > warm. Wasn't it Louis Gerrard who wrote of using this method and then > finding out that his partner had a problem with lice? And of course the > usual method of cleaning up lice only worked during the warm season. > > B'st'rd > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blankets and Hot Rocks Date: 01 Nov 1999 09:18:28 -0600 tom roberts wrote: > > Yea, and I've got a nice, black-edged, round hole in one of my canvas bags, as well as a scorched spot on one of my blankets from said hot rock. It did stay warm all night, but it _could_ have gotten a whole lot warmer real quick! > > Tom "I knew it, not enough dirt." Bearclaw. B^) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Stephens Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blankets Date: 01 Nov 1999 06:21:57 -0800 Could be I have morphed Lewis and Clark and Osborn Russell into Garrard. That's the trouble with this damm work stuff: Don't have my books here. B'st'rd Glenn Darilek wrote: > > I do remember a part of Garrard where he and another were sharing their > robes for warmth. They got snowed on a lot, and Garrard made the > mistake of raising his head. The snow flowed under his head. He > couldn't convince his partner to get out of the bed to get the snow out, > so he spent the rest of the night using a snow pillow. > > Glenn Darilek > Iron Burner ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blankets Date: 01 Nov 1999 09:43:15 -0600 Another thing to add as to keeping warm in the cold, drink lots of water, try to avoid caffiene. (I know) B^) Caffiene and alcohol are diuretics, which means it makes you pee more and can lead to dehydration which can lead to headaches and being colder (not to mention having to get out of the warm bed to relieve yourself), I usually have a plastic "pee" bottle when I'm camping, not period I know. A quick check of your pee can tell how you're doing, if it gets darker yellow, start drinking more water, you want it about the color of Coors! B^) The body will give off about a quart of water at night. Other suggestions were great, dry clothes, take a walk before changing into bed clothes, wear a hat. Insulation below you is at least as important as whats over you. Enough of my Boy Scout training for now. Jim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: MtMan-List: Buffalo Bird Woman's Garden Date: 01 Nov 1999 09:46:22 -0600 I stopped at Fort Snelling this weekend and picked up "Buffalo Bird Wonma's Garden" as told to Gilbert L. Wilson. Cost $8.95 ISBN 0-87351-219-7. Sure looks like it'll be a good read. Jim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coal Beds & Jon Kramer Date: 01 Nov 1999 08:47:28 -0700 Sheesh!!! Fine lot of information on the post by Jon Kramer. Sounds like only a couple of us have actually built and used a coal-bed. You fellers that ain't done it really ought to go out and try it at least once. It's interesting to say the least. My first one was more akin to a steam bath where I'd roast one side then turn over and roast the other and all the time steam rolling up around me. Next was much more successful because I built a giant huge fire and let it dry out all the dirt...best camp I ever had at right around zero, slept warm as could be. Like the J. Johnson movie, don't forget to put enough DRY dirt down. Anyhow, thanks Jon, for all the good info. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blankets Date: 01 Nov 1999 09:49:19 -0600 Also, if you have enough snow, dig a trench and set up your bed in there, any wind will blow over the top of you. Just make it wide enough that if you toss and turn you don't have snow drop down on your face, that wakes you up in a hurry! Jim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rick_williams@byu.edu Subject: RE: MtMan-List: coal bed Date: 01 Nov 1999 16:18:00 +0000 Did a coal bed once. Was very warm. In fact had to keep getting up and putting more dirt over it. One real problem was the moisture. It was early spring so the snow melt was still in the ground. Felt like aturkish bath. I would use again for survival. (read no blankets etc.) but I think hot rocks do as well with blankets. Watch out for explodsions when heating though. Put it inside of something (canvas bag works) and protect your blankets. Rick -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of JON MARINETTI Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 12:21 AM How period authentic was Bear Claw (IIRC real name was Chris Lapp) advising Johnson to sleep on a bed of simmering coals loosely covered with dirt, as shown in that movie? How can coals simmer without oxygen? Also, what are blanket points (thickness of 1 point = .013 inches like in the printing trade?). Have read with great interest all the previous knowledgeable postings from The AMM Camp's experience that comes only from surviving the snows of many winters. Jon Marinetti Michigan Territory Land of the Ojibway, Odawa, Potawattomi ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blankets Date: 01 Nov 1999 09:00:07 -0800 On Sun, 31 October 1999, ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: > > > Quit callin' me "Mr." And I am just shootin in the dark to see what > > happens.. I am curious like that.. Are you SURE it was back to back??? > > Dennis, > If there was only two of them and it was dark, we will never know......but if > there were three, then someone was a gettin' the shaft. Which one of them > guys always walks around with a big smile on his face? > > OldFox __________________________ I did notice several where happy, a few surprised and one grumpy ????? Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html _________________________________ Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ron Chamberlain" Subject: MtMan-List: Blankets / Lanolin Date: 01 Nov 1999 13:31:49 -0700 "Wash it as little as possible, preferably by hand. They can be machine washed but if you want it to last a very long time, dry clean it at the end of the season and put it away carefully for the summer. A teaspoonful of hazelnut oil , Almond oil or similar in the final rinse helps restore the oil to the wool. Moreover, it will smell very nice!" cstmzd@ida.net Lewis Fork Free Trappers www.ida.net/users/cstmzd/trappers.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Farseer Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Blankets !!!!!!! Date: 01 Nov 1999 18:49:35 -0600 How does one go about getting hold of CJ Wilde? Is this Wilde Weave= ry, which is here in Kansas City, or possibly Lee's Summit (surely I can'= t be that lucky)? > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Buck > Sent: Sunday, October 31, 1999 4:03 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blankets !!!!!!! > > > Clay Landry (God bless his heart) has long advocated that (as > research will reveal) there was nothing more that the 3 1/2 point= =A0 > and the occasional/limited 4 point available in days of yore.=A0 > Have we departed from our roots????=A0 I've done quite will with my > 4 point and some heated rocks and when things got > ....unusual....a buff robe > > filled in the vacancy.=A0=A0 I'm 5'11 and 2xx lb. .......no snide= comments > _________________________ > > Hey brother, > Sounds like you better get scheduled for a few operations John, > have about 6" cut off your legs and about the same cut off your > butt, you would be more period correct. > > Only kidding, with the difference in size today of reenacters > when compared to our forefathers that 6-7 inch difference in > blankets makes the difference in being comfortable or hanging out. > > As far as Witney or C.J. Wilde blanket's go, of course Witney's > are correct and C.J.'s blankets are copies of original F&I War to > Rev War blankets from several museums. > Bottom line is all of them are copies - HBC, Witney or Wilde's, > only problem is size and if you dig long and hard enough you'll > fine many homespun blankets where alot larger than a 3-1/2 or 4 > pt. blanket. Hell be happy these folks are using blankets, beats > fony bedrolls with sleeping bags hidden in them like we all have > seen in years passed. > > > Later, > Buck Conner > _________________________________ > Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html > Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ > AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html > _________________________________ > Aux Ailments de Pays! > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmai= l.net > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.= html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Farseer Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Blankets Date: 01 Nov 1999 18:53:37 -0600 Same here. I was always told to strip down as much as you could, and keep the clothes under the blanket with you. If you went to bed clothed, you'd sweat and wake up with wet clothes. Worked well enough when I was younger and went camping during the winter. I must admit I have not been out below about -10 though. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Frank V. Rago > Sent: Sunday, October 31, 1999 6:10 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blankets > > > Although I have been visiting rendezvous for awhile this past one > I decided > to stay the weekends. Since I am new to this I am forced to use a lean to > type of shelter that I made from white canvas and limbs. Well the first > weekend was wet and by Sat. afternoon I packed it up and went home. I was > dry and inside the leanto was dry just all my trade goods were getting > soaked. Now the second weekend I HAD A BLAST. Set up the lean > to just high > enough that I could fit while laying on my little fold out cot, covered it > with an old sleeping bag and threw my whitney over that and I was set. I > then built a fire about 6' away with a large backing of wood to direct the > heat into my lean to. I also put a pile of wood next to the lean > to so all > I had to do was reach over and throw a log in the fire during the night. > Averaged 3 logs a night. When I hit the sack I stripped down to the > undershorts and that was it. I stayed nice and toasty even though it did > get a might bit chilly. I was always told to stay away from the fire and > strip for the night so that when you get dressed in the morning > you can feel > the warmth of your clothes. > > I do plan on doing this as much as possible and may just leave the trade > goods at home on a few trips so as I can attend the shooting events rather > than sell. > > > > > At 04:56 PM 10/31/99 -0500, you wrote: > >Buck, > > I always build me a nice bed of grasses, leaves or some such to > get me up > off the ground, and then get a blanket under me and one on > top.And although > I go barefoot until there is actually snow on the ground, I wear a nice > thick pair of wool socks, a touque and mebby mittens to bed.. Makes a > difference. When possible I build a litter shelter with a > reflector fire in > front. > >I stay as comfortable as can be expected in the conditions. Also, when in > extreme cold or wet weather, we just buddy up 2-3 folks to a > shelter & fire. > >D > > > >Buck wrote: > > > >> Have slept out in -25 degree weather. There are a couple of other good > reasons why some get cold and others don't. Most are the > person's own fault. > >> 1. You need to go to bed warm, dry, and have enough calories in your > system to get you through the night. Eat a late supper with plenty of fat > in it. Go for a walk to get your blood circulating, then change your dry > clothes and turn in. > >> > > >> 2. You need to stay away from the fire. Most guys that are > fire-sitters are always cold. You sweat more than you know when it is > cold, but you don't notice it. Sitting by the fire will get you > all sweated > up. You turn in and your clothing cools off and you get cold. > >> > > >> 3. You need bedding that will pass moisture. If you sleep with your > head under the covers, your breath will get everything damp. > When it cools > off, you will get cold. Best thing is to crawl into your > blankets and then > put a small blanket over your head and face. That keeps your > breath out of > your main bedding. > >> > >> For some reason, I always found western mountain air to be warmer than > eastern air....at the same temperature. Maybe > >> cause mountain air has less humidity in it. > >> > > >> > Dave Kanger > >> ___________________________ > >> > >> Another item that is missed for some reason is your feet, you > can watch a > guy complain about his feet being cold during the day, many times his > footwear with extra socks are to tight. Then he'll go to bed wearing his > footwear and complain all night how his feet are freezing. You tell him to > take off his shoes, boots, mocs and he'll be better off, but they > never listen. > >> > >> Later, > >> Buck Conner > >> _________________________________ > >> Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html > >> Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ > >> AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html > >> _________________________________ > >> Aux Ailments de Pays! > >> > >> Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account > http://www.uswestmail.net > >> > >> ---------------------- > >> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > >-- > > > >"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > > Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements > > http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 > > > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Blankets !!!!!!! Date: 01 Nov 1999 17:33:33 -0800 Lee's Summit is the correct address. Buck _________________ > > How does one go about getting hold of CJ Wilde? Is this Wilde Weavery, > which is here in Kansas City, or possibly Lee's Summit (surely I can't be > that lucky)? > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Buck > > Sent: Sunday, October 31, 1999 4:03 PM > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blankets !!!!!!! > > > > > > Clay Landry (God bless his heart) has long advocated that (as > > research will reveal) there was nothing more that the 3 1/2 point  > > and the occasional/limited 4 point available in days of yore.  > > Have we departed from our roots????  I've done quite will with my > > 4 point and some heated rocks and when things got > > ....unusual....a buff robe > > > filled in the vacancy.   I'm 5'11 and 2xx lb. .......no snide comments > > _________________________ > > > > Hey brother, > > Sounds like you better get scheduled for a few operations John, > > have about 6" cut off your legs and about the same cut off your > > butt, you would be more period correct. > > > > Only kidding, with the difference in size today of reenacters > > when compared to our forefathers that 6-7 inch difference in > > blankets makes the difference in being comfortable or hanging out. > > > > As far as Witney or C.J. Wilde blanket's go, of course Witney's > > are correct and C.J.'s blankets are copies of original F&I War to > > Rev War blankets from several museums. > > Bottom line is all of them are copies - HBC, Witney or Wilde's, > > only problem is size and if you dig long and hard enough you'll > > fine many homespun blankets where alot larger than a 3-1/2 or 4 > > pt. blanket. Hell be happy these folks are using blankets, beats > > fony bedrolls with sleeping bags hidden in them like we all have > > seen in years passed. > > > > > > Later, > > Buck Conner > > _________________________________ > > Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html > > Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ > > AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html > > _________________________________ > > Aux Ailments de Pays! > > > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html _________________________________ Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Verlin Kinsey" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blankets !!!!!!! Date: 01 Nov 1999 19:39:03 -0600 Farseer wrote: How does one go about getting hold of CJ Wilde? Is this Wilde Weavery, which is here in Kansas City, or possibly Lee's Summit (surely I can't be that lucky)? ################################################################# Sure is, Wilde Weavery Lees Summit, MO Sparky >From the Flint Hills of Kansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Verlin Kinsey" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blankets !!!!!!! Date: 01 Nov 1999 20:32:36 -0600 Forgot the email address: Wilde Weavery Lees Summit, MO ewilde@sound.net Sparky >From the Flint Hills of Kansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Dearing Subject: MtMan-List: Re: blankets Date: 01 Nov 1999 20:55:09 -0800 > >Learned a trick for keeping your feet in the blankets. I, too, am a tosser > >and turner, and no matter how I folded my blankets, the old feet seemed to > >pop out. Saw a idea in Muzzleloader where a guy tied the ends of the > >blankets together. This has worked great for me. Give it a try. > I too toss at night, and solved the cold feet problem by folding about 18" of the foot of the blanket under, and "sewing" it in place with linen thread and a bodkin. About one stitch every couple of inches. Just enough to hold things together. This, with a bed of leaves, one blanket under and folded over the top, with another folded in half on top, that is, one layer under and three on top keeps me REAL comfy. And I'm one of those folks who gets cold pretty easily. J.D. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul Jones" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blankets !!!!!!! Date: 02 Nov 1999 04:40:24 -0000 On the money, it is Lee's Summit. C.J. Wilde, 602 East Third Street, Lee's Summit, MO 64063. 816 524-7374 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: MtMan-List: AUCTION Date: 02 Nov 1999 14:17:59 -0500 NEW ITEM ON THE AUCTION SITE!!!
www.wesnet.com/deforge1/Auction.htm
THANKS
D
 
 
  ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: MtMan-List: FWD: Statistics Date: 02 Nov 1999 18:29:01 -0700 DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants > >A recent article in the Seattle Washington Post-Intelligencer concerning >accidental deaths caused by physicians from research of Laura Key USA > This triggered a chain of thought that resulted in the person cruising >the web (not me) for doing some statistics and doing a few calculations. > Number of physicians in the US -700,000 > Accidental deaths caused /year - 120,000 > Accidental deaths/physician = 0.171 > > Number of gun owners in the US =80,000,000 > Number of accidental gun deaths/year (all age groups) =1,500 > Accidental deaths/gun owner =0.0000188 > > Therefore, Doctors are approximately 9000 times more dangerous than gun > >owners. > > > > Take each day as it comes and live it!!!! RFC822 header Received: from mail.cybermesa.com [198.59.109.2] by mail.market1.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.01) id A96C17006E; Mon, 01 Nov 1999 20:24:28 -0600 Received: from default (dialpec111.roadrunner.com [209.12.74.111]) by mail.cybermesa.com (8.9.3/8.9.3(SpamKiller1.0)) with SMTP id UAA09340; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 20:23:16 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991101202141.007d3180@mail.cybermesa.com> X-Sender: trreport@mail.cybermesa.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 20:21:41 -0800 To: hiznherz@fone.net, "Jon Bower" , Jnbbrah@coffey.com, Phyllis and Don Keas , CZAR@FRII.COM, jbgilbert@sprynet.com, oak@montrose.net, pberry@world-net.net From: Marlis Simms Subject: Statistics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-RCPT-TO: X-UIDL: 3516 Status: U ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Farseer Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Blankets !!!!!!! Date: 02 Nov 1999 19:54:50 -0600 Well I'll be. Guess I may make a trip at lunch this week and see w= hat I can't live without. Thanks Buck. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Buck > Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 7:34 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Blankets !!!!!!! > > > Lee's Summit is the correct address. > > Buck > _________________ > > > > How does one go about getting hold of CJ Wilde? Is this Wilde W= eavery, > > which is here in Kansas City, or possibly Lee's Summit (surely > I can't be > > that lucky)? > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Buck > > > Sent: Sunday, October 31, 1999 4:03 PM > > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blankets !!!!!!! > > > > > > > > > Clay Landry (God bless his heart) has long advocated that (as > > > research will reveal) there was nothing more that the 3 1/2 poi= nt=A0 > > > and the occasional/limited 4 point available in days of yore.= =A0 > > > Have we departed from our roots????=A0 I've done quite will wit= h my > > > 4 point and some heated rocks and when things got > > > ....unusual....a buff robe > > > > filled in the vacancy.=A0=A0 I'm 5'11 and 2xx lb. .......no > snide comments > > > _________________________ > > > > > > Hey brother, > > > Sounds like you better get scheduled for a few operations John, > > > have about 6" cut off your legs and about the same cut off your > > > butt, you would be more period correct. > > > > > > Only kidding, with the difference in size today of reenacters > > > when compared to our forefathers that 6-7 inch difference in > > > blankets makes the difference in being comfortable or hanging o= ut. > > > > > > As far as Witney or C.J. Wilde blanket's go, of course Witney's > > > are correct and C.J.'s blankets are copies of original F&I War = to > > > Rev War blankets from several museums. > > > Bottom line is all of them are copies - HBC, Witney or Wilde's, > > > only problem is size and if you dig long and hard enough you'll > > > fine many homespun blankets where alot larger than a 3-1/2 or 4 > > > pt. blanket. Hell be happy these folks are using blankets, beat= s > > > fony bedrolls with sleeping bags hidden in them like we all hav= e > > > seen in years passed. > > > > > > > > > Later, > > > Buck Conner > > > _________________________________ > > > Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html > > > Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ > > > AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html > > > _________________________________ > > > Aux Ailments de Pays! > > > > > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillis= t.html > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.= html Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html _________________________________ Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.= net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.ht= ml ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Farseer Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Blankets !!!!!!! Date: 02 Nov 1999 19:57:08 -0600 Outstanding. I'd heard about them from a friend who did Rev. War reenactment. He got some really nice fustian and linsey woolsey material. Didn't even think about blankets. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Paul Jones > Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 10:40 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blankets !!!!!!! > > > On the money, it is Lee's Summit. C.J. Wilde, 602 East Third > Street, Lee's > Summit, MO 64063. > > 816 524-7374 > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: AUCTION Date: 02 Nov 1999 21:10:10 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0058_01BF2576.A5F61600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey Folks Check out the new item on the Auction site listed below. It is a book, = Across the Seasons, by Laura Glise. This book is well worth the trouble. What more could we = want......painstakingly researched historical fiction (four years = worth!!), mixed with a touch of mysticism and a double dip of time = travel? Who among us hasn't daydreamed of traveling in time to the = Rendezvous period and having the opportunity to personally "see the = elephant"? This is what happens to the main character in this story. I = had the pleasure of helping Laura with some of the small details of the = book to ensure greater historical accuracy of the rendezvous era = depicted and was very impressed with her attention to detail and her = desire to "get it right." Any mistakes in this area are most likely = mine.=20 The only artistic license of note is that some details of the 1837 = rendezvous are blended with those of the 1838 rendezvous. I have one of = the other ten copies and I can't wait for the book to be published. A = very well known and respected agent has the manscript and has been very = favorably impressed with it. Look for this one to make it. The = manuscript is nicely printed, ring bound and cost Laura $20 to print. = Thanks a lot, Laura, for donating this interesting item. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ps: I will say this. As some movies are "chick flicks", this book is = somewhat a "chick book"....but not entirely. There are a number of = riveting scenes of conflict with wild critters and wild men, both white = and red, to satisfy the blood lust in any of us and the entire adventure = experienced by the main character is very compelling to anyone. This is = no namby-pamby Politically Correct book, rewriting history to smooth = modern feathers, if you get my drift. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dennis Miles=20 To: ammlist@lists.xmission.com ; hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 1:17 PM Subject: AMM-List: AUCTION NEW ITEM ON THE AUCTION SITE!!!=20 www.wesnet.com/deforge1/Auction.htm=20 THANKS D=20 =20 =20 -------------------- Aux Ailments de Pays! ------=_NextPart_000_0058_01BF2576.A5F61600 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
 

Hey Folks
Check out the new item on the Auction site listed below.  It = is a=20 book, Across the Seasons, by Laura Glise.
This book is well worth the trouble.  What more could we=20 want......painstakingly researched historical fiction (four years = worth!!),=20 mixed with a touch of mysticism and a double dip of time travel?  = Who among=20 us hasn't daydreamed of traveling in time to the Rendezvous period and = having=20 the opportunity to personally "see the elephant"?  This is what = happens to=20 the main character in this story.  I had the pleasure of helping = Laura with=20 some of the small details of the book to ensure greater historical = accuracy of=20 the rendezvous era depicted and was very impressed with her attention to = detail=20 and her desire to "get it right."  Any mistakes in this area are = most=20 likely mine.
The only artistic license of note is that some details of the 1837=20 rendezvous are blended with those of the 1838 rendezvous.  I have = one of=20 the other ten copies and I can't wait for the book to be = published.  A very=20 well known and respected agent has the manscript and has been very=20 favorably impressed with it.  Look for this one to make it.  = The=20 manuscript is nicely printed, ring bound and cost Laura $20 to = print. =20 Thanks a lot, Laura, for donating this interesting item.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
ps:  I will say this.  As some movies are "chick flicks", = this=20 book is somewhat a "chick book"....but not entirely.  = There are a=20 number of riveting scenes of conflict with wild critters and wild men, = both=20 white and red, to satisfy the blood lust in any of us and the entire = adventure=20 experienced by the main character is very compelling to anyone.  = This is no=20 namby-pamby Politically Correct book, rewriting history to smooth modern = feathers, if you get my drift.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Dennis=20 Miles
To: ammlist@lists.xmission.com ; hist_text@lists.xmission.com =
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, = 1999 1:17=20 PM
Subject: AMM-List: = AUCTION

NEW ITEM ON THE AUCTION SITE!!!
www.wesnet.com/deforg= e1/Auction.htm=20
THANKS
D
 
 
  -------------------- = Aux=20 Ailments de Pays! ------=_NextPart_000_0058_01BF2576.A5F61600-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: MtMan-List: AUCTION Date: 02 Nov 1999 23:24:39 -0500 > OKAY ALREADY! > The Auction site is updated and as of 23:20hrs E.D.T all bids are > current. Gimme a break, I don't live online and update every 2 min.. > This ain't ebay!!! > Later > D > > -- > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements > http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 -- "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mtnman1449@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blankets Date: 03 Nov 1999 00:53:21 EST CJ Wilde blankets are hand made to duplicate museum specimens of the period and are sold with documentation. Haven't spent much time thinking about the 6pt other than blankets were sold in pairs and without splitting the pair in half, you could certainly have the size. pat surrena #1449 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mtnman1449@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blankets !!!!!!! Date: 03 Nov 1999 01:15:14 EST yes, CJ is in Lee's summit. Pat surrena #1449 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blankets Date: 03 Nov 1999 17:51:54 EST With all this talk of washing blankets..... .....how come sheep don't shrink when it rains? a little early for this kinda stuff??!? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blankets Date: 03 Nov 1999 16:20:19 +0000 SWcushing@aol.com wrote: > > With all this talk of washing blankets..... > > .....how come sheep don't shrink when it rains? SW, They do shrink if you wash them in really hot water! It's never too early for these kinds of questions. Just think what would have happened if you hadn't asked and went ahead and washed your sheep in hot water. Look where you would be now. With a bunch of poodles that eat grass and stink real bad when they get wet. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blankets Date: 03 Nov 1999 21:12:38 EST not quite related to rainy sheep, but close....... while watching the news, with my wife the other night, my 5 yr old daughter saw the blurb about the wooly mammoth found in the ice, intact! She turned to my wife and declared, "Well, I guess that's one that didn't make it on the ark!" Out of the mouths of babes... ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ "Sleeps Loudly" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: Across the Seasons Manuscript - Auction Date: 03 Nov 1999 20:36:21 -0600 Hi Folks This is from the manuscript of "Across the Seasons" currently on the = Auction Site. As Laura says, you may want to print this out to make = reading easier.=20 YMOS Lanney ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 4:57 PM > Lanney: >=20 > I'm going to read a portion of my manuscript aloud tonight at a = Writers'=20 > Roundtable in Washington. I wish you and some of the friends I have = made on=20 > the list were there to "watch my back." I thought I'd like to send = the list=20 > what I'm going to read tonight. After I read, Native Americans and = animal=20 > rights advocates may run me out of the place. For the sake of time I = have=20 > skipped some paragraphs in the Chapter. List members might want to = print=20 > this out rather than trying to read on line. >=20 > Thanks for forwarding this to the list, with my thanks to all that = have=20 > helped me during the last year and, Lanney, for your information the=20 > politically correct term is "woman's book," not a "chick book." >=20 > Fair weather to you, Laura Jean > Wind1838@aol.com >=20 > Chapter 19 page 278 >=20 > They rode hard all day. Late afternoon they arrived at the = location=20 > Russell had been telling her about for two days. He was true to his = word,=20 > Sarah saw the panoramic view of the five mountain ranges and felt = their raw=20 > power. She had been drawn to the mountains as if they were a magnet. = By=20 > rising above the dwellings of men, she had left behind all low and = earthly=20 > regions. She had climbed above herself. She had seen pictures of the = earth=20 > from the moon, but she had never witnessed the infinite horizon line = of the=20 > life God had given her. She felt as though God, like her Father when = she was=20 > a small child, had hoisted her on His shoulders to gaze at His = handiwork. =20 > She was reminded of Genesis, "On the second day God created the land, = and it=20 > was good." >=20 > The mountains, each slightly different in their persona, were=20 > overwhelming in their size and grandeur; a great presence seemed to = hover over=20 > the ranges. They possessed unimaginable mystery and splendor, and = were the=20 > home of the fierce, powerful, natural elements beyond human control: = and the=20 > dangerous haunts of the gods. As far as she could see the horizon = receded in=20 > the distance, revealing ridge after ridge of mountain ranges without = end; a=20 > pathway to heaven, to the moon, and to the stars. Ruskin described = mountains=20 > as great cathedrals of the earth, with their gates of rock, pavements = of=20 > cloud, choirs of stream and stone, altars of snow, and vaults of = purple=20 > traversed by continual stars. Soon Albert Bierdstadt would capture = the=20 > rugged wildness of the Rockies in his paintings, and America would = have its=20 > first glimpse of their majestic grandeur.=20 >=20 > Perhaps it was the danger inherent in the mountains that fueled the = mythology=20 > of their wild regions. Sarah was sure it was not simply financial = gain that=20 > brought mountaineers like Russell to the Shining Mountains. Careless = individuals did=20 > not live long , a slight mistake or a disregard for the weather could = cost a man his=20 > life. >=20 > "Think of the years that went by," said Russell in a whisper, "without = any=20 > man watching." >=20 > It occurred to Sarah, as she watched him turn full-circle to once = again=20 > admire the breathtaking view, that the mountains were his mistress. = He=20 > worshiped her beauty and he took time and great care to explore her = hidden=20 > secrets, and to pleasure her with his devotion. >=20 > "We're in luck." He pointed east. >=20 > Sarah saw a village of fifteen or twenty tipis. Their tall lodge = poles=20 > rising into the sky looked like the teeth of a comb against the = setting sun. =20 > Six young warriors rode at full speed to meet them, their hair flying = like=20 > jet black streamers in the wind. Feathers dangled from their horses' = manes=20 > and tails. They yelled as they approached and exchanged words with = Russell. =20 > They eyed Sarah keenly, turned their horses, and sped back to their = village;=20 > their shouts and yells fading as they rode away. >=20 > As they entered the village small boys ran to greet them waving little = bows=20 > and arrows. The entire village crowded around their horses eager to = see=20 > their trapper friend and his White woman. When the sun went down, = half the=20 > sky was a fiery red. The young men left the village and returned = driving a=20 > large herd of horses of every size, age, and color. Kettles were hung = over=20 > camp fires. Young women were tossing children in the air on a buffalo = robe. =20 > The coverings of the lodges fluttered in the wind. Children enjoyed = the last=20 > light of day, while their mothers visited and prepared the evening = meal. The=20 > camp was filled with the low hum of cheerful voices. Sarah and = Russell were=20 > escorted to a lodge in the center of the village. . . . . . . (skip to = page=20 > 281) >=20 > The chief began a highly agitated tale. Sarah sat silently, watching = his=20 > animated gestures without the slightest idea what he was saying. The = chief=20 > told Russell about a recent attack on two of the village's young men = by a war=20 > party of Blackfeet Indians. One of the young men was wounded when = shot with=20 > the enemies' arrows. The other was chased up the side of a mountain,=20 > surrounded by his attackers, and scalped alive. They cut the tendons = of=20 > their captives' wrists and feet and threw them in a fire, then pinned = them in=20 > the flames with long poles, until they burned to death. >=20 > Russell responded in a sympathetic tone to his host's story. > =20 > "What did he say," asked Sarah. >=20 > "He said they've had some trouble with the Blackfeet," he answered = without=20 > elaboration. . . . . . . (skip ahead) >=20 > Sarah noticed a litter of seven rust-colored puppies sleeping together = in a=20 > heap, nestled among some buffalo robes. A woman entered the gathering = > carrying a mallet of stone affixed to the handle by a covering of = rawhide. =20 > She grabbed one of the puppies by the hind leg and carried him = yelping, out=20 > of the entrance of the lodge. In the doorway the woman swiftly = clubbed the=20 > animal in the head until it was dead. Russell's expression never = changed. =20 > He put his hand on Sarah's, patting it nonchalantly, speaking to her = in a=20 > whisper through a forced smile. >=20 > "A dog feast is the greatest compliment to be offered a guest. It is=20 > considered an insult for a stranger, White man or Indian, to return = any=20 > portion of the food which is offered him. If we don't eat all that is = set=20 > before us we'll have to take the remainder with us when we leave." >=20 > Sarah nodded, smiling back at him and their hosts. Through a hole in = the=20 > back of the lodge she could see the woman, holding the puppy by the = legs,=20 > swinging it back and forth through the fire until all of its hair was = singed=20 > off. She looked away when the Indian woman unsheathed her knife and = began to=20 > butcher the dog into small pieces, dropping each piece into a kettle = to boil. >=20 > Within fifteen minutes the woman returned with a large wooden dish = filled=20 > with meat, and a cake of dried meat and fruit pounded together and = mixed with=20 > buffalo marrow. The women had prepared a boiled flour pudding with = dried=20 > fruit and a sauce made of berry juice and sugar. They ate from crude = wooden=20 > bowls. Their gracious hostess served them with a ladle from a = big-horn=20 > sheep. Sarah took a deep breath and reminded herself that she had = eaten=20 > horse in Greece, guinea pigs in South America, and alligator in = Florida, but=20 > she had never eaten an animal whose mother slept unsuspectingly in the = room. >=20 > # # # # # ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blankets Date: 03 Nov 1999 19:22:20 -0800 (PST) Just the wool shrinks, where do you think we get GOATS ??? --- R Lahti wrote: > SWcushing@aol.com wrote: > > > > With all this talk of washing blankets..... > > > > .....how come sheep don't shrink when it > rains? > > SW, > > They do shrink if you wash them in really hot water! > It's never too > early for these kinds of questions. Just think what > would have happened > if you hadn't asked and went ahead and washed your > sheep in hot water. > Look where you would be now. With a bunch of poodles > that eat grass and > stink real bad when they get wet. I remain... > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: MtMan-List: packs vs. haversacks Date: 03 Nov 1999 23:08:51 -0700 Hello the list, Well, I think we've worked over the blankets pretty good. Here's a new one for you. Do you prefer a haversack or a backpack for being out on foot? Why, and details about what you use (size/weight/materials used in construction, etc). I'm sure everyone will be interested. Thanks in advance, Allen Hall out in Fort Hall country ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: packs vs. haversacks Date: 03 Nov 1999 22:19:36 -0800 (PST) On Wed, 3 Nov 1999, Allen Hall wrote: > Well, I think we've worked over the blankets pretty good. > Here's a new one for you. Do you prefer a haversack or a backpack for being > out on foot? Why, and details about what you use (size/weight/materials > used in construction, etc). Egads Allen! That's what horses are for. I was a looking at a pack basket myself for those times when horses aren't practical. I 've used a large (two actually) haversack for hunting and short jaunts, but they just don't hold enough for my taste. Problem is... since I'm trying to stay true to the period of 1810 or so, not much mention is made of packs other than soldiers packs and the famous 90 lb packs carried over portages by the voyagers. Seems like everytime the NWC or HBC left a post for a jaunt, they averaged 5 horses or more per man. No mention of packs. Regards Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders lnewbill@uidaho.edu : http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: packs vs. haversacks Date: 03 Nov 1999 22:39:32 -0800 Allen, I have experimented with many different styles of carrying way too much stuff. I have found several methods which work well. Depending on length, type of trek, etc... some work better than others. On a 1-2 day trip a simple haversack works well. I become annoyed at too many straps criss crossing my body. Canteen, haversack, shooting pouch, powder horn, bed roll strap...TOO many darned straps. I use a belt pouch for shooting bag. I can carry a small powder horn in it. If I'm carrying a comfortable camp I use a back pack ,with bed roll tied on top of it. Recently I have made myself a set of saddle bags, with matching pommel bags. I made it so the pommel bags tie to the sadle bags. I like this arrangement as it gives me two larger bags, and two smaller bags- all in one unit. I don't have a horse, so I carry them over my shoulder. At a walk in event I carry this set over one shoulder, and my bedroll strap over the other shoulder. Pistol, axe, knife, pouch are all on my belt. Longer gun is in my mitts. Tom Nichols , in Ca., makes a neat rawhide box back pack. I have one of them and it works quite well. It is a 19" x 12" x 8" rawhide box with shoulder straps. The hair is left on against your back. My favorite is the saddle bags, because it's easier to organize ones gear with the 4 different bags. I'm interested in hearing of others set ups.... Hardtack Your Second Amendment Rights protect ALL of your other Rights, Don't give up your Rights ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Duncan Macready Subject: Re: MtMan-List: packs vs. haversacks Date: 04 Nov 1999 21:24:30 +1300 Allen wrote: >. Do you prefer a haversack or a backpack for being >out on foot? Why, and details about what you use (size/weight/materials >used in construction, etc). On this tack , are the basket backpacks sold by Track of the Wolf, authentic in style if not construction? YMOS Cutfinger Friendships made,Problems shared Campfires across the wilderness. Auckland, New Zealand ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: packs vs. haversacks Date: 04 Nov 1999 07:02:00 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BF2692.7DC052A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Allen, Backpacks vs, haversacks is really a matter of personal preference. = As for as authenticity, it depends on where you are. [ historically ] I've never been able to make a packbasket work. It seems to always be = too big or not big enough. If you're going to a packbasket so you can = carry more stuff, beware. You can overload yourself real quick. This = may sound funny, but when you're loading a packbasket hold the basket in = one hand and put stuff in it with the other hand. When you can't hold = the thing up comfortably with one hand, STOP LOADING. At that point = you've got about all the stuff you will want to carry for and extended = period taking in consideration you're going to add a knife, shooting = bag, powderhorn, rifle, axe, etc. Hope this helps. Pendleton=20 -----Original Message----- From: Duncan Macready To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Thursday, November 04, 1999 12:28 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: packs vs. haversacks =20 =20 Allen wrote: >. Do you prefer a haversack or a backpack for being >out on foot? Why, and details about what you use = (size/weight/materials >used in construction, etc). =20 On this tack , are the basket backpacks sold by Track of the Wolf,=20 authentic in style if not construction? =20 =20 YMOS Cutfinger Friendships made,Problems shared Campfires across the wilderness. Auckland, New Zealand =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BF2692.7DC052A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Allen,
  = Backpacks vs,=20 haversacks is really a matter of personal preference.  As for as=20 authenticity, it depends on where you are. [ historically ]
  I've never been able to make a packbasket = work. =20 It seems to always be too big or not big enough.  If you're going = to a=20 packbasket so you can carry more stuff, beware.  You can overload = yourself=20 real quick.  This may sound funny, but when you're loading a = packbasket=20 hold the basket in one hand and put stuff in it with the other = hand.  When=20 you can't hold the thing up comfortably with one hand, STOP = LOADING.  At=20 that point you've got about all the stuff you will want to carry for and = extended period taking in consideration you're going to add a knife, = shooting=20 bag, powderhorn, rifle, axe, etc.  Hope this helps.
Pendleton 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Duncan Macready <Duncanm@ihug.co.nz>
To: = hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Thursday, November 04, 1999 12:28 AM
Subject: Re: = MtMan-List:=20 packs vs. haversacks

Allen  = wrote:
>. =20 Do you prefer a haversack or a backpack for being
>out on = foot? =20 Why, and details about what you use = (size/weight/materials
>used in=20 construction, etc).

On this tack , are the basket backpacks = sold by=20 Track of the Wolf,
authentic in style if not=20 construction?


YMOS
Cutfinger
Friendships = made,Problems=20 shared
Campfires across the wilderness.
Auckland, New=20 Zealand

----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xm= ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BF2692.7DC052A0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: MtMan-List: Sitting inside Date: 04 Nov 1999 08:21:48 -0600 Sitting in my office in Chippewa Falls, Wisconsin, along the south bank of the Chippewa River, watching a 6 point buck chasing a doe, they run into some pines and out come 3 yearlings. Man I wish I was outside! Pray for tracking snow, Jim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: packs vs. haversacks Date: 04 Nov 1999 07:08:35 -0700 Allen, when it comes to carrying my equipment, I always seem to be changing what I use. If going on a short walk into a camp or a rendezvous, a cloth pannier set up (one piece) is used with smaller bags in it. My bedroll is always separate. I agree with most, a horse makes the carrying easy- but then you need to take care of the horse. When in a hiking mode, two haversacks are used. One for the food/ cooking items, one for changes of clothes (sox/ maybe extra shirt/ stocking hat and misc. needs).I find that the haversacks are close to what is called the "possible bags" and they do expand if needed. Allen Hall wrote: > Hello the list, > > Well, I think we've worked over the blankets pretty good. > > Here's a new one for you. Do you prefer a haversack or a backpack for being > out on foot? Why, and details about what you use (size/weight/materials > used in construction, etc). > > I'm sure everyone will be interested. > > Thanks in advance, > > Allen Hall out in Fort Hall country > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: packs vs. haversacks Date: 04 Nov 1999 10:15:34 EST my vote goes for the backpack or rucksack. It distributes the load more evenly over both shoulders than a haversack over only one shoulder, it doesn't swing around in the way when stooping over, and I can tie things like bedrools and extra clothing to it more easily. I like to tie mine to a tree when in camp to make it easier to get into and to keep it off the ground. There's my 2 cents. Todd Glover ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sitting inside Date: 04 Nov 1999 08:41:28 -0700 Glad you have such a great view! Wish I had one. Best be grateful for what we do have eh? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: packs vs. haversacks Date: 04 Nov 1999 10:49:52 EST Allen, I forgot to mention that my pack is 14" wide x 17" tall x 4" deep. This is my second one, first was even bigger. Made it with a heavy hemp canvas as I felt it was more authentic than cotton canvas. Bottom of the pack is completely reinforced with a piece of leather extending an inch up the front and back. Strap attachments are reinforced on the top with a piece of leather on the inside of the pack. After construction I waterproofed it with a mixture of boiled linseed oil and powdered paint in a burnt sienna color. The bag is slightly stiff, but completely impervious to rain and snow. I made sure the linseed oil was neutralized before using by boiling it with some limestone added, then testing it with ph testing strips. Todd Glover ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kevin Pitman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sitting inside Date: 04 Nov 1999 08:48:07 PST Thanks for the mental picture. Needed that sitting in my classroom grading 6-week world history exams. Have some Douglas Spotted Eagle playing on the tape player and that helps too. Kevin >From: Jim Lindberg >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: Sitting inside >Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 08:21:48 -0600 > >Sitting in my office in Chippewa Falls, Wisconsin, along the south bank >of the Chippewa River, watching a 6 point buck chasing a doe, they run >into some pines and out come 3 yearlings. Man I wish I was outside! > >Pray for tracking snow, > >Jim > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: packs vs. haversacks Date: 04 Nov 1999 10:42:28 +0000 Allen Hall wrote: > > Hello the list, > > Well, I think we've worked over the blankets pretty good. Allen, If you think the blankets have been beaten to death, you should be monitoring the MLML list and see what can be done with a simple request for a good recipe for chile. As to "tote'n that bale", I have run the gamut from pack basket to bedroll. In-between I've used simple ruck sacks and back boards with a pack attached. They all seem to have their good points and short comings. Some things I've learned the hardway and others I've learned from listening to others (and I'm still listening) but for my money......... The bottom line for me is simply that I do not have regular access to a horse or pack animal. So whether the NW Co. boys or HBC lackeys or Rocky Mt. Company hired hands or even the few free trappers, had horses to carry their gear or not, I don't! So given my physical infirmities (Old Age plus dissipation and abuse) and my need to hump my camp on my back, I am for working on a lighter and lighter load. The bigger my carrying container is, the more junk I can carry and the closer to the road I camp. That's not what this is supposed to be about so I eliminated the pack basket early on as being clumsy and capable of carrying too much stuff. One of my camp mates, Crawdad, carries one and we let him cause he always brings in a big roast marinated in some secret sauce stored in a pot in his pack basket. He is a good sharer too. Now that Lee fella is a strong young man and can get away with carrying half the contents of his garage. I can't (He'll break down eventually ). Next I tried the back board with attached pack bag. That works fairly well and I still use it if the load is needing to be on the heavy side (because of the need for another blanket or whatever). It is made of cedar uprights and oak cross bucks all rawhided together with wide leather shoulder straps. It has canvas bands across at the top and bottom to keep the wood parts off my back. It is fairly comfortable to carry. I also have a rucksack/knapsack with attached shoulder straps made very similar to what Teton Todd describes. It's made of heavy linen canvas, waterproofed with bee's wax and about 14" wide by 16" tall give or take. It is not gusseted so it is a simple envelope with a button down flap and strengthened like Teton's with leather across the bottom and top back. At the moment it resides on the pack frame. It can be removed and used as a ruck sack and has been but I found that carrying things like a rolled up blanket, coat and what have you made the load somewhat clumsy and it works better with a heavy load if it is mounted on the pack frame. By itself it makes a great day pack and with warm weather camps and just the one blanket it works fine. Any heavier load and it goes back on the pack frame. I agree with that aspect of Hardtacks offering. Pack frames are the most comfortable for fairly heavy loads. Much more so than the pack basket. I also have a haversack with one cross body strap that I am trying to go through and lighten up as to it's normal contents. It is close to the same size as the ruck sack but wider than tall and otherwise made the same of the same materials. It seems to work good by itself as a day pack and this fall I used it with a separate bed roll slung to the same shoulder with some success going into our fall hunting camp (hopefully the site of the AMM 2000 Western). I didn't find that arraignment as troublesome as I have heard it to be. Using the bed roll and single cross body strap to carry my food sack, pots, extra mocs, wool tam and little else, rolling it long and tight and belting the shoulder strap to each end made it ride across my back without the expected tendency to slide around in front. I wore the haversack on the same shoulder but let it hang on the side rather than in back. I carried a canteen on that same side and my shooting pouch and horn on the other side. My belt contained my camp hatchet, knife, waterproof fire kit, and camera. I walked with Tulle in hand. It wasn't an unworkable load. I don't carry a pistol because I find them to be too heavy for the utility they offer. Incidentally I load myself in the reverse order of stuff I can get along without and still survive. So first I put on the belt with it's stuff, then the pouch and horn and I like a standard sized neck knife under everything and tucked in my shirt front. Then I put on the haversack, the canteen and finally the bedroll or back pack or rucksack. If I need to shed stuff in a hurry, I can flip off down to the bare minimum fairly quick. I am presently carrying some parched corn/jerky and some small items like an extra fire kit and meds in my haversack. There are still some things in my whole outfit that need a second and third look at to see if I really need them. But though I have been doing this for quit a few years I am coming to the realization that my enjoyment of this activity is not measured by how many "toys" I can get into camp but how easily "I" can make it into camp. That means leaving lots of "toys" at home and just carrying the necessities. Things change when I get to use the bateau, sled or am unbelievably lucky enough to find a horse wandering around that will let me catch and pack it. So for what it's worth, that's the way I do it. I know that historically our idols had horses to pack their stuff. And I am aware that there is a derth of references to "packs" of any kind. Most of us aren't mounted. There is no sense, as far as I can see, in pretending that I am a Mt. Man looking for my horse and carrying all the stuff that a regularly mounted person would carry "in case I find my horse". I'm afoot and likely to remain so. Perhaps I'm not a full fledged Rocky Mt. Trapper because of that. But I do like playing this game and I do like camping with my friends and if that means adapting the ways of another group of frontiersmen (read long hunter) then that is what I will have to do. The ranks of the Rocky Mt. Fur Trapper were filled with former eastern frontiersmen and such folks were in the Rockies perhaps even before Lewis and Clark. Sorry for the editorial. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mill, Kirk" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: packs vs. haversacks Date: 04 Nov 1999 14:12:26 -0500 Next I tried the back board with attached pack bag. That works fairly well and I still use it if the load is needing to be on the heavy side (because of the need for another blanket or whatever). It is made of cedar uprights and oak cross bucks all rawhided together with wide leather shoulder straps. It has canvas bands across at the top and bottom to keep the wood parts off my back. It is fairly comfortable to carry. I have a similar pack/frame combo. The pack is made from hair-on buckskin with rawhide sides to help it hold it's shape. The frame is made from cedar. While this works okay , how do you carry your shootin' bag and horn? The frame tends to shove the bag and horn around in front of you. I have sort of settled on hanging the bag off the back of the pack and putting the horn inside but this is kinda impractical if you intend to do any shooting while you are carrying the pack. Any suggestions? Kirk ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: packs vs. haversacks Date: 04 Nov 1999 14:35:21 EST I use a simple flour sack, often found at antique shows for a dollar or two. They are well woven and tough. Sacks were a common way of carrying personal belongings. They will hold considerable gear and are expandable. I turn them into a rucksack by dropping a Bess ball in each lower corner, and tying them off with cordage. I have two hair-on rawhide straps that the cordage goes through. These serve as shoulder straps. The cordage passes through a hole at each end. Fill the sack with your possibles, grab the top of the sack and give it a twist, and tie it off with the ends of the cordage. You can get two blankets, cooking gear, food, extra clothes, etc into the sack, and a lot more if you want. When you unload it, the sack serves as a ground cloth that will extend from the butt to the shoulders. It's a pretty utilitarian way of doing things. It ain't waterproof, but it doesn't have to be. Everything inside that needs to stay dry is inside its own bag or container. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: packs vs. haversacks Date: 04 Nov 1999 11:45:03 +0000 Mill, Kirk wrote: While this works okay , how do you carry your shooting' bag > and horn? The frame tends to shove the bag and horn around in front of you. Kirk, Not sure there is an easy answer. Any of these arraignments have their short side. My pack frame is not all that wide, perhaps in the neighborhood of 14" so it doesn't come around to the side all that far (considering how wide I am getting ). The shooting bag and horn straps go over my left shoulder ( I carry them on the right) and the bag has a woven linen strap and the horn has a leather thong. I try to make straps from material that won't slide all that well on whatever they will be worn over. Without the pack or anything else on my shoulders they tend to swing around in front if I bend forward. With something on my shoulders over the straps, they tend to stay better. I wear the shooting bag and horn as high as I can and still get in and out of it. As for shooting while wearing all this gear, that doesn't happen all that often. I use a loading block around my neck and that gives me five patched shots before I need to get into the bag. I guess if I needed to hunker down to shoot I would start peeling off stuff and letting it lay. That is one thing about the pack frame and it's two shoulder straps, it's harder to shed in a hurry than the bed roll and haversack arrangement. But neither method of carrying camp causes the shooting bag to ride to the front unduly. > I have sort of settled on hanging the bag off the back of the pack and > putting the horn inside but this is kinda impractical if you intend to do > any shooting while you are carrying the pack. I too have packed my shooting bag away in my bed roll or knapsack at times because it was easier to deal with. All you really need is powder patch and ball. That can be taken care of with a loading block of patched balls and a measure hung from your horn. Use 3f and prime with it too. Your possibles bag is full of stuff you might "possibly need", so it doesn't mean that you have to get into it for every shot. That's all I can think of at the moment. Hope that gets you to thinking. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sitting inside Date: 04 Nov 1999 15:19:14 -0500 Oh! darn, not another World History teacher?????? So am I. And I want to go camping so bad. Can't see deer on the second floor of my building in the middle of the city. But the few words he spoke give me the greatest thoughts of setting up my tipi next weekend in the back yard and just day dreaming. Linda Holley Kevin Pitman wrote: > Thanks for the mental picture. Needed that sitting in my classroom grading > 6-week world history exams. Have some Douglas Spotted Eagle playing on the > tape player and that helps too. > > Kevin > > >From: Jim Lindberg > >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >Subject: MtMan-List: Sitting inside > >Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 08:21:48 -0600 > > > >Sitting in my office in Chippewa Falls, Wisconsin, along the south bank > >of the Chippewa River, watching a 6 point buck chasing a doe, they run > >into some pines and out come 3 yearlings. Man I wish I was outside! > > > >Pray for tracking snow, > > > >Jim > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Huss931@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: mountain men illustrations Date: 04 Nov 1999 19:07:48 EST I have just completed a book on Robert Campbell-- Irish Mountain Man. He was the partner of William Sublette, close friend of Jed Smith, Jim Bridger, and all the other men who were "bigger than life." I would like to include pictures/art work/ photos which illustrate the life of the mountain man. I can use modern pictures and will give credit to anyone who sends me one which I use (and includes written permission to use it). I will also give the person a book when it is published. Contact Dr. Stephen F. Huss (Huss931@aol.com) or mail to me at: 227 Main Festus, MO 63028 Thanks, Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sitting inside Date: 04 Nov 1999 18:18:39 -0700 To all the world history teachers: hurrah! Let me encourage you. I was once a young lad who sat in a world history class and had a teacher who actually taught me something. This one was different, he had long hair(!), a moustache, a smile on his face and always tried to reach the kids. He must of done something right. History is not the most pressing thing on young minds, but it is important. When kids give you a blank look and don't do their home work-don't give up. History (as all of us know in this group) can be exciting, fun and interesting. Keep up the good work! Linda Holley wrote: > Oh! darn, not another World History teacher?????? So am I. And I want to go > camping so bad. Can't see deer on the second floor of my building in the > middle of the city. But the few words he spoke give me the greatest thoughts > of setting up my tipi next weekend in the back yard and just day dreaming. > > Linda Holley > > Kevin Pitman wrote: > > > Thanks for the mental picture. Needed that sitting in my classroom grading > > 6-week world history exams. Have some Douglas Spotted Eagle playing on the > > tape player and that helps too. > > > > Kevin > > > > >From: Jim Lindberg > > >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > >Subject: MtMan-List: Sitting inside > > >Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 08:21:48 -0600 > > > > > >Sitting in my office in Chippewa Falls, Wisconsin, along the south bank > > >of the Chippewa River, watching a 6 point buck chasing a doe, they run > > >into some pines and out come 3 yearlings. Man I wish I was outside! > > > > > >Pray for tracking snow, > > > > > >Jim > > > > > >---------------------- > > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Douglas Hepner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: packs vs. haversacks Date: 04 Nov 1999 20:06:10 -0600 What about pack baskets? Are they period? What about documented? "Dull Hawk" ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, November 04, 1999 12:08 AM > Hello the list, > > Well, I think we've worked over the blankets pretty good. > > Here's a new one for you. Do you prefer a haversack or a backpack for being > out on foot? Why, and details about what you use (size/weight/materials > used in construction, etc). > > I'm sure everyone will be interested. > > Thanks in advance, > > Allen Hall out in Fort Hall country > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: packs vs. haversacks Date: 04 Nov 1999 21:07:33 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0077_01BF2708.9CAA6EA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Great Info Capt. You pretty much covered it all. You're right, as we = get older we figure out that it ain't having all the geegaws that makes = for a fine camp. =20 Pendleton -----Original Message----- From: R Lahti To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Thursday, November 04, 1999 10:44 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: packs vs. haversacks =20 =20 Allen Hall wrote: >=20 > Hello the list, >=20 > Well, I think we've worked over the blankets pretty good. =20 Allen, =20 If you think the blankets have been beaten to death, you should be monitoring the MLML list and see what can be done with a simple = request for a good recipe for chile. =20 As to "tote'n that bale", I have run the gamut from pack basket to bedroll. In-between I've used simple ruck sacks and back boards with = a pack attached. They all seem to have their good points and short comings. Some things I've learned the hardway and others I've = learned from listening to others (and I'm still listening) but for my money.........=20 =20 The bottom line for me is simply that I do not have regular access = to a horse or pack animal. So whether the NW Co. boys or HBC lackeys or = Rocky Mt. Company hired hands or even the few free trappers, had horses to carry their gear or not, I don't! So given my physical infirmities = (Old Age plus dissipation and abuse) and my need to hump my camp on my = back, I am for working on a lighter and lighter load. The bigger my = carrying container is, the more junk I can carry and the closer to the road I camp.=20 =20 That's not what this is supposed to be about so I eliminated the = pack basket early on as being clumsy and capable of carrying too much = stuff. One of my camp mates, Crawdad, carries one and we let him cause he always brings in a big roast marinated in some secret sauce stored = in a pot in his pack basket. He is a good sharer too. Now that Lee fella = is a strong young man and can get away with carrying half the contents of = his garage. I can't (He'll break down eventually ).=20 =20 Next I tried the back board with attached pack bag. That works = fairly well and I still use it if the load is needing to be on the heavy = side (because of the need for another blanket or whatever). It is made of cedar uprights and oak cross bucks all rawhided together with wide leather shoulder straps. It has canvas bands across at the top and bottom to keep the wood parts off my back. It is fairly comfortable = to carry.=20 =20 I also have a rucksack/knapsack with attached shoulder straps made = very similar to what Teton Todd describes. It's made of heavy linen = canvas, waterproofed with bee's wax and about 14" wide by 16" tall give or = take. It is not gusseted so it is a simple envelope with a button down = flap and strengthened like Teton's with leather across the bottom and top back. At the moment it resides on the pack frame. It can be removed = and used as a ruck sack and has been but I found that carrying things = like a rolled up blanket, coat and what have you made the load somewhat = clumsy and it works better with a heavy load if it is mounted on the pack frame. By itself it makes a great day pack and with warm weather = camps and just the one blanket it works fine. Any heavier load and it goes back on the pack frame. I agree with that aspect of Hardtacks = offering. Pack frames are the most comfortable for fairly heavy loads. Much = more so than the pack basket. =20 I also have a haversack with one cross body strap that I am trying = to go through and lighten up as to it's normal contents. It is close to = the same size as the ruck sack but wider than tall and otherwise made = the same of the same materials. It seems to work good by itself as a day pack and this fall I used it with a separate bed roll slung to the = same shoulder with some success going into our fall hunting camp = (hopefully the site of the AMM 2000 Western). I didn't find that arraignment as troublesome as I have heard it to be. =20 Using the bed roll and single cross body strap to carry my food = sack, pots, extra mocs, wool tam and little else, rolling it long and = tight and belting the shoulder strap to each end made it ride across my = back without the expected tendency to slide around in front. I wore the haversack on the same shoulder but let it hang on the side rather = than in back. I carried a canteen on that same side and my shooting pouch = and horn on the other side. My belt contained my camp hatchet, knife, waterproof fire kit, and camera. I walked with Tulle in hand. It = wasn't an unworkable load. I don't carry a pistol because I find them to be = too heavy for the utility they offer.=20 =20 Incidentally I load myself in the reverse order of stuff I can get = along without and still survive. So first I put on the belt with it's = stuff, then the pouch and horn and I like a standard sized neck knife under everything and tucked in my shirt front. Then I put on the = haversack, the canteen and finally the bedroll or back pack or rucksack. If I = need to shed stuff in a hurry, I can flip off down to the bare minimum = fairly quick. =20 I am presently carrying some parched corn/jerky and some small items like an extra fire kit and meds in my haversack. There are still = some things in my whole outfit that need a second and third look at to = see if I really need them. But though I have been doing this for quit a few years I am coming to the realization that my enjoyment of this = activity is not measured by how many "toys" I can get into camp but how = easily "I" can make it into camp. That means leaving lots of "toys" at home = and just carrying the necessities. Things change when I get to use the bateau, sled or am unbelievably lucky enough to find a horse = wandering around that will let me catch and pack it.=20 =20 So for what it's worth, that's the way I do it. I know that = historically our idols had horses to pack their stuff. And I am aware that there = is a derth of references to "packs" of any kind. Most of us aren't = mounted. There is no sense, as far as I can see, in pretending that I am a = Mt. Man looking for my horse and carrying all the stuff that a regularly mounted person would carry "in case I find my horse". I'm afoot and likely to remain so. Perhaps I'm not a full fledged Rocky Mt. = Trapper because of that. But I do like playing this game and I do like = camping with my friends and if that means adapting the ways of another group = of frontiersmen (read long hunter) then that is what I will have to do. = The ranks of the Rocky Mt. Fur Trapper were filled with former eastern frontiersmen and such folks were in the Rockies perhaps even before Lewis and Clark. Sorry for the editorial. I remain... =20 YMOS Capt. Lahti' =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------=_NextPart_000_0077_01BF2708.9CAA6EA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Great Info Capt.  You pretty = much covered=20 it all.  You're right, as we get older we figure out that it ain't = having=20 all the geegaws that makes for a fine camp. 
Pendleton
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 R Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
To: = hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Thursday, November 04, 1999 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: = MtMan-List:=20 packs vs. haversacks

Allen Hall wrote:
> =
>=20 Hello the list,
>
> Well, I think we've worked over the = blankets pretty good.

Allen,

If you think the blankets = have=20 been beaten to death, you should be
monitoring the MLML list and = see what=20 can be done with a simple request
for a good recipe for = chile.

As=20 to "tote'n that bale", I have run the gamut from pack = basket=20 to
bedroll. In-between I've used simple ruck sacks and back = boards with=20 a
pack attached. They all seem to have their good points and=20 short
comings. Some things I've learned the hardway and others = I've=20 learned
from listening to others (and I'm still listening) but = for=20 my
money.........

The bottom line for me is simply that I = do not=20 have regular access to a
horse or pack animal. So whether the NW = Co. boys=20 or HBC lackeys or Rocky
Mt. Company hired hands or even the few = free=20 trappers, had horses to
carry their gear or not, I don't! So = given my=20 physical infirmities (Old
Age plus dissipation and abuse) and my = need to=20 hump my camp on my back,
I am for working on a lighter and = lighter load.=20 The bigger my carrying
container is, the more junk I can carry = and the=20 closer to the road I
camp.

That's not what this is = supposed to be=20 about so I eliminated the pack
basket early on as being clumsy = and=20 capable of carrying too much stuff.
One of my camp mates, = Crawdad,=20 carries one and we let him cause he
always brings in a big roast=20 marinated in some secret sauce stored in a
pot in his pack = basket. He is=20 a good sharer too. Now that Lee fella is a
strong young man and = can get=20 away with carrying half the contents of his
garage. <G> I = can't=20 (He'll break down eventually <G>).

Next I tried the = back board=20 with attached pack bag. That works fairly
well and I still use it = if the=20 load is needing to be on the heavy side
(because of the need for = another=20 blanket or whatever). It is made of
cedar uprights and oak cross = bucks=20 all rawhided together with wide
leather shoulder straps. It has = canvas=20 bands across at the top and
bottom to keep the wood parts off my = back. It=20 is fairly comfortable to
carry.

I also have a = rucksack/knapsack=20 with attached shoulder straps made very
similar to what Teton = Todd=20 describes. It's made of heavy linen canvas,
waterproofed with = bee's wax=20 and about 14" wide by 16" tall give or take.
It is not = gusseted=20 so it is a simple envelope with a button down flap
and = strengthened like=20 Teton's with leather across the bottom and top
back. At the = moment it=20 resides on the pack frame. It can be removed and
used as a ruck = sack and=20 has been but I found that carrying things like a
rolled up = blanket, coat=20 and what have you made the load somewhat clumsy
and it works = better with=20 a heavy load if it is mounted on the pack
frame. By itself it = makes a=20 great day pack and with warm weather camps
and just the one = blanket it=20 works fine. Any heavier load and it goes
back on the pack frame. = I agree=20 with that aspect of Hardtacks offering.
Pack frames are the most=20 comfortable for fairly heavy loads. Much more
so than the pack=20 basket.

I also have a haversack with one cross body strap = that I am=20 trying to go
through and lighten up as to it's normal contents. = It is=20 close to the
same size as the ruck sack but wider than tall and = otherwise=20 made the
same of the same materials. It seems to work good by = itself as a=20 day
pack and this fall I used it with a separate bed roll slung = to the=20 same
shoulder with some success going into our fall hunting camp=20 (hopefully
the site of the AMM 2000 Western). I didn't find that=20 arraignment as
troublesome as I have heard it to be.

Using = the bed=20 roll and single cross body strap to carry my food sack,
pots, = extra mocs,=20 wool tam and little else, rolling it long and tight
and belting = the=20 shoulder strap to each end made it ride across my back
without = the=20 expected tendency to slide around in front. I wore the
haversack = on the=20 same shoulder but let it hang on the side rather than
in back. I = carried=20 a canteen on that same side and my shooting pouch and
horn on the = other=20 side. My belt contained my camp hatchet, knife,
waterproof fire = kit, and=20 camera. I walked with Tulle in hand. It wasn't
an unworkable = load. I=20 don't carry a pistol because I find them to be too
heavy for the = utility=20 they offer.

Incidentally I load myself in the reverse order = of stuff=20 I can get along
without and still survive. So first I put on the = belt=20 with it's stuff,
then the pouch and horn and I like a standard = sized neck=20 knife under
everything and tucked in my shirt front. Then I put = on the=20 haversack,
the canteen and finally the bedroll or back pack or = rucksack.=20 If I need
to shed stuff in a hurry, I can flip off down to the = bare=20 minimum fairly
quick.

I am presently carrying some parched = corn/jerky and some small items
like an extra fire kit and meds = in my=20 haversack. There are still some
things in my whole outfit that = need a=20 second and third look at to see if
I really need them. But though = I have=20 been doing this for quit a few
years I am coming to the = realization that=20 my enjoyment of this activity
is not measured by how many=20 "toys" I can get into camp but how easily
"I" = can=20 make it into camp. That means leaving lots of "toys" at = home=20 and
just carrying the necessities. Things change when I get to = use=20 the
bateau, sled or am unbelievably lucky enough to find a horse=20 wandering
around that will let me catch and pack it.

So = for what=20 it's worth, that's the way I do it. I know that historically
our = idols=20 had horses to pack their stuff. And I am aware that there is = a
derth of=20 references to "packs" of any kind. Most of us aren't=20 mounted.
There is no sense, as far as I can see, in pretending = that I am=20 a Mt.
Man looking for my horse and carrying all the stuff that a=20 regularly
mounted person would carry "in case I find my = horse".=20 I'm afoot and
likely to remain so. Perhaps I'm not a full fledged = Rocky=20 Mt. Trapper
because of that. But I do like playing this game and = I do=20 like camping
with my friends and if that means adapting the ways = of=20 another group of
frontiersmen (read long hunter) then that is = what I will=20 have to do. The
ranks of the Rocky Mt. Fur Trapper were filled = with=20 former eastern
frontiersmen and such folks were in the Rockies = perhaps=20 even before
Lewis and Clark. Sorry for the editorial. I=20 remain...

YMOS
Capt.=20 Lahti'

----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xm= ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------=_NextPart_000_0077_01BF2708.9CAA6EA0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: packs vs. haversacks Date: 04 Nov 1999 23:06:42 EST In Muzzleloader Magazine, May/June 1996 is pictured an oil painting by A.J. Miller showing two trappers, one with a knapsack with shoulder straps and his blanket tied on top. In the next issue, on page 38, a reader speculated that the pack may have been a military item or copy of one, since it was like their 1830's dragoon regiment packs. One story of a mountaineer carryina pack was written by Henry Brackenridge who heard it from Manuel Lisa...." This man[John Colter] with a pack of 30 pounds weight, his gun and some ammunition, went upwards of 500 miles to the Crow nation" JILL ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Cherokeoil@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mountain men illustrations Date: 05 Nov 1999 00:49:00 EST I haven`t got any pictures but might be interested in buying a copy when there done. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: Musings From Absalom (Charlie Smith from Bandera, Texas' Cousin and Persona of Jim Bryan) Date: 05 Nov 1999 20:03:47 -0600 This is a post I received today from my friend Jim Bryan. The scene is = vividly described and the whole episode could have had dangerous = results. Better him than me, I say. Now....who uses a rear sight on a smoothbore and who doesn't? And why? = I have a rear sight, mainly because I want to hit what I aim at with = some consistency. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff Sent: Friday, November 05, 1999 4:09 PM and Persona of Jim Bryan) > O.K., >=20 > Let's say you are working up an fffg load for a .610 roundball in your > 20ga fowler...you are at the bench and have worked up to 65gr of 3f = (as > was suggested by two of my fellow Geezer Rangers)...Lizzie B is = grouping > well with that and you are feeling pleased especially considering you > have been a kind of shut-in for a couple of weeks and it is sure good = to > be out in the woods (kinda woods) again...then let's say you are > momentarily struck by temporary amnesia (an inherant Geezer trait) and > while all snuggled down on the bench you touch off a round with your > 7/16ths wiping stick in the bore....I am here to tell you that all = hell > breaks loose and it feels like something with a Bulldog hood-ornament > has suddenly invaded your space. And, if you have had recent back > surgery which is the reason for your being a shut-in in the first = place, > the effect is increased exponentially. And, besides that, your wiping > stick becomes barely recognizable as to its original purpose after it > caroms off the railroad tie backstop. Additionally, it blows the group > you have worked so hard on using only a front sight.... DO NOT TRY = THIS > AT HOME!!! This was an exercise conducted by a trained, professional > Geezer under controlled conditions.=20 >=20 > Ouchingly yours, >=20 > Absalom >=20 > p.s. Please don't tell Chuck Ezell about this...He thinks I have some > idea of how to shoot. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Musings From Absalom (Charlie Smith from Date: 05 Nov 1999 18:27:09 -0800 Lanney, About 12 years ago several of us where hunting in the modern season with flintlocks here in Colorado, we're on our place 300 plus acres with access to 10,000 next door. A mulie is working his way up the side of this little canyon, we all see him, one shoots and it goes under him at 125 yards, then the next friend shoots same results another long shot (this is very unusal for these two as they normally won't shoot any further than 70-75 yards). They're reloading and pointing at the deer, he a good one like we all have seen in the magazines - 36-38 inches between the points. I'm ready and ease off a 600 round ball at what I thought was about 60 yards, turns out he so damn big he was about 85 yards out and the ball falls short. By then the two friends are yelling their guts out - "he coming up to you, get ready Buck". I'm loading and look at the edge of the bank in front of me and all I see are these big horns coming, I'm so excited forget to pull the ramrod and let her fly. The ramrod goes between the horns in a whipping motion, hitting both sides of the rack. Friends are laughting, I think I broke my nose, and the buck is shaking his head like "what the hell was that". This story makes the local paper, thanks to "Concho" and "Turtle". I received several calls about what happened to the deer, he finally died about 3 years later of old age, the neighbor found his rack and bones that spring. That's one that got away and we all where happy to have met him, even though it was breif. __________________________________________________ > > momentarily struck by temporary amnesia (an inherant Geezer trait) and while all snuggled down on the bench you touch off a round with your 7/16ths wiping stick in the bore....I am here to tell you that all hell breaks loose and it feels like something ........... Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html _________________________________ Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: George Washington's Pack Bag Date: 05 Nov 1999 22:45:33 -0500 (EST) Cited from General Washington's Military Equipment, pp.10-11 [Mount Vernon, 1963]. Three heavy black leather pack bags are also said to have been used by Washington during Braddock's [1755 F&I] campaign and their worn condition suggests possible service also during the Revolution. These bags have added interest because they are numbered among the few original pieces which never left Mount Vernon after Washington's death [Dec.14,1799]. Illustrated (Fig.3) is one of the three which were relinquished to the [Mount Vernon] Association in 1860 by Colonel John Augustine Washington, last private owner of Mount Vernon. Fig.3 Leather pack bag. Of heavy black leather with center compartment framed in thin wood [unstated type of wood]. Covered with rounded and flapped lid. With collapsible front pocket. Height: 13 inches, width: 15 inches, depth 7.5 inches. One of a set of three. Gifts of Colonel John Augustine Washington, 1860. Jon Marinetti Michigan Territory Land of the Ojibway, Odawa, Potawatomi ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: MtMan-List: Bear Date: 05 Nov 1999 21:47:00 +0000 Bear was just a baby when I first saw him some 12 years ago. But baby rotwilers look a lot like little bear cubs and that's what the Major called him when he brought Bear home. He was cute and cuddly and quit a terror for a couple years but he grew into a big calm guardian of his family. The Major was away a lot those first few years but Bear was always there to look after his wife and two little girls. Bear did his job and did it well. Bear liked to go camping with the major and I and one winter camp just a few years back, he came along. It was cold and snowy and Bear was feeling his age and the change in climate. By then Bear was getting on in age and the Major had become a Col. We pitched our camp on a snowy ridge in the Cascades that January with several brothers. The Col. arranged a bed for Bear up by our heads. Some time in the middle of the night Bear got sick and woke me to his heaving. I moved my head just in time to avoid his supper. We cleaned up the mess and went back to bed with our backs to each other and Bear tucked in between our legs. We all slept warm that night. A couple years back the Col. brought Bear with him when we canoed on Cooper Lake with "Old Blue" from Albany in my bateau and the Col. and Bear in his birch bark. You could tell that Bear was feeling his age. He was reluctant to get into that rickety birch bark but in he went and all went well. Dang near as stiff as me only not just in the morning but most all day. He had a good time and we enjoyed his company. We chased up an elk herd, did some fishing and generally had a nice summer camp together. The Col. and I were going to do some bird hunting over here in Eastern WA. this week but this past weekend the Col. dropped me a line and told me that Bear had got stomach sick and ran off. They couldn't find him and the Col. needed to stay home and see if Bear was coming back or what. By Wednesday, there was still no sign of Bear. I got a note from the Col. this evening. This is what it said. "Found Bear's body today in an old tree stump. If there are no dogs in heaven then Im not going." I guess if that's the way it is up there. I ain't going neither. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' Just needing to share. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bear Date: 06 Nov 1999 07:54:43 -0800 Col. Col, fear not. At the gate when you get there, Bear will be there wagging his stubby tail when he see`s you coming up the path to be with him. We`ve all had loving partners such as Bear. I hope I get to be with all of the ones I`ve loved and lost. With a long and sad heart we all are wet eyed. John (BIG JOHN) Hunt Longhunter Mountainman southwest Ohio ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, November 05, 1999 1:47 PM > Bear was just a baby when I first saw him some 12 years ago. But baby > rotwilers look a lot like little bear cubs and that's what the Major > called him when he brought Bear home. He was cute and cuddly and quit a > terror for a couple years but he grew into a big calm guardian of his > family. The Major was away a lot those first few years but Bear was > always there to look after his wife and two little girls. Bear did his > job and did it well. > > Bear liked to go camping with the major and I and one winter camp just a > few years back, he came along. It was cold and snowy and Bear was > feeling his age and the change in climate. By then Bear was getting on > in age and the Major had become a Col. We pitched our camp on a snowy > ridge in the Cascades that January with several brothers. The Col. > arranged a bed for Bear up by our heads. Some time in the middle of the > night Bear got sick and woke me to his heaving. I moved my head just in > time to avoid his supper. We cleaned up the mess and went back to bed > with our backs to each other and Bear tucked in between our legs. We all > slept warm that night. > > A couple years back the Col. brought Bear with him when we canoed on > Cooper Lake with "Old Blue" from Albany in my bateau and the Col. and > Bear in his birch bark. You could tell that Bear was feeling his age. He > was reluctant to get into that rickety birch bark but in he went and all > went well. Dang near as stiff as me only not just in the morning but > most all day. He had a good time and we enjoyed his company. We chased > up an elk herd, did some fishing and generally had a nice summer camp > together. > > The Col. and I were going to do some bird hunting over here in Eastern > WA. this week but this past weekend the Col. dropped me a line and told > me that Bear had got stomach sick and ran off. They couldn't find him > and the Col. needed to stay home and see if Bear was coming back or > what. By Wednesday, there was still no sign of Bear. > > I got a note from the Col. this evening. This is what it said. > > "Found Bear's body today in an old tree stump. If there are no dogs in > heaven then Im not going." > > I guess if that's the way it is up there. I ain't going neither. I > remain... > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > Just needing to share. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronald Schrotter Subject: MtMan-List: wipin' sticks Date: 06 Nov 1999 08:04:56 -0800 (PST) Had a good laugh over the wipin' stick incident. It reminded me of my first rendezvous, many yeas ago. After two solid days of tradin' I finally found myself in possesion of the gun I'd been wanting all weekend, and took it to the range to test it out. Having been away from muzzleloadin' for a number of years, I was a bit nervous, but followed the owners recommendation as to load and patch, took aim, and fired away. I don't know where the ball hit, but I did get to see the rod make a splintered arch over the target and into the backstop. It does feel a bit like a mule kick, doesn't it? I still have that old gun, it took my first deer, and has made meat a lot of times since that first shot. There are probably a lot of us geezers that have made that mistake, but most won't admit it! Dog, Gabe's Hole Brig. ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bear Date: 06 Nov 1999 11:47:50 -0700 After trying three times to write some profound words to help- let me just say, I wish I'd gotten to meet Bear, sounds like a great friend, companion and helper. It is always hard when a animal like him passes on. Makes even us "hard cases" tender hearted. My condolences. mike. R Lahti wrote: > Bear was just a baby when I first saw him some 12 years ago. But baby > rotwilers look a lot like little bear cubs and that's what the Major > called him when he brought Bear home. He was cute and cuddly and quit a > terror for a couple years but he grew into a big calm guardian of his > family. The Major was away a lot those first few years but Bear was > always there to look after his wife and two little girls. Bear did his > job and did it well. > > Bear liked to go camping with the major and I and one winter camp just a > few years back, he came along. It was cold and snowy and Bear was > feeling his age and the change in climate. By then Bear was getting on > in age and the Major had become a Col. We pitched our camp on a snowy > ridge in the Cascades that January with several brothers. The Col. > arranged a bed for Bear up by our heads. Some time in the middle of the > night Bear got sick and woke me to his heaving. I moved my head just in > time to avoid his supper. We cleaned up the mess and went back to bed > with our backs to each other and Bear tucked in between our legs. We all > slept warm that night. > > A couple years back the Col. brought Bear with him when we canoed on > Cooper Lake with "Old Blue" from Albany in my bateau and the Col. and > Bear in his birch bark. You could tell that Bear was feeling his age. He > was reluctant to get into that rickety birch bark but in he went and all > went well. Dang near as stiff as me only not just in the morning but > most all day. He had a good time and we enjoyed his company. We chased > up an elk herd, did some fishing and generally had a nice summer camp > together. > > The Col. and I were going to do some bird hunting over here in Eastern > WA. this week but this past weekend the Col. dropped me a line and told > me that Bear had got stomach sick and ran off. They couldn't find him > and the Col. needed to stay home and see if Bear was coming back or > what. By Wednesday, there was still no sign of Bear. > > I got a note from the Col. this evening. This is what it said. > > "Found Bear's body today in an old tree stump. If there are no dogs in > heaven then Im not going." > > I guess if that's the way it is up there. I ain't going neither. I > remain... > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > Just needing to share. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Texan" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bear Date: 06 Nov 1999 14:09:41 -0600 Captain, Martin Luther, noted theologian, concluded, after much study on the subject, that pets and animals go to heaven when they die. Have a few waitin' for me. Victoria ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: more on blankets Date: 06 Nov 1999 16:08:12 -0600 Many years ago I saw an article in some publication devoted to early American history that described how to make a sleeping bag. The reference was to 18th century and was directed towards hunters and soldiers of the period. I sent it to the Buckskin Report magazine where it was republished. Unfortunately, it was so long ago I cannot give proper credit to the original source. However the technique makes sense and is in line with the philosophy of the times to save, use and reuse everything that might have some value. It also shows that, even then, there was an understanding of what makes good insulation. Briefly: you will need three or more blankets. one or two of them can be old and worn thin or only parts and pieces of blankets. two should be in good condition. the two good ones are the outer and inner layers. the older blankets are cut into strips 2" or 3" wide and as long as possible. after the strips are cut, weave them as with a simple basket weave until you have a woven layer the same size as your blankets. sew the woven ends to one blanket so it does not unveave. after that is done lay the other blanket over the entire works and stitch all around the whole affair. then fold over one time. stitch the feets part closed. stitch from the feets part about one half the way up on the open side. climb in, sleep warmly. The principal is the same as with modern insulation, loft holds more air and when body-warmed retains the heat for more comfort than just another layer of blanket. This affair might be bulky but I am sure it would work. I haven't made one because the cost of good wool blankets is such that I do not care to take a scissors to mine to experiment. Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bear Date: 06 Nov 1999 17:15:31 -0500 (EST) Capt., Never met a dog I did not like, even the mean ones have good in them. I believe that old saying that all dogs go to heaven. There is an old song that says that there is nothing like "Old dogs and children and watermellon wine" I forget rightly how it goes but that saying sticks with me. Because dogs are like children and if you have a chance to experience the love of either before they get currupted by society, hell thats all you need. Oneday maybe I will have a few of my own, children, I have two pupas as we call them and they and my wife is all I need right now. At 09:47 PM 11/5/99 +0000, you wrote: >Bear was just a baby when I first saw him some 12 years ago. But baby >rotwilers look a lot like little bear cubs and that's what the Major >called him when he brought Bear home. He was cute and cuddly and quit a >terror for a couple years but he grew into a big calm guardian of his >family. The Major was away a lot those first few years but Bear was >always there to look after his wife and two little girls. Bear did his >job and did it well. > >Bear liked to go camping with the major and I and one winter camp just a >few years back, he came along. It was cold and snowy and Bear was >feeling his age and the change in climate. By then Bear was getting on >in age and the Major had become a Col. We pitched our camp on a snowy >ridge in the Cascades that January with several brothers. The Col. >arranged a bed for Bear up by our heads. Some time in the middle of the >night Bear got sick and woke me to his heaving. I moved my head just in >time to avoid his supper. We cleaned up the mess and went back to bed >with our backs to each other and Bear tucked in between our legs. We all >slept warm that night. > >A couple years back the Col. brought Bear with him when we canoed on >Cooper Lake with "Old Blue" from Albany in my bateau and the Col. and >Bear in his birch bark. You could tell that Bear was feeling his age. He >was reluctant to get into that rickety birch bark but in he went and all >went well. Dang near as stiff as me only not just in the morning but >most all day. He had a good time and we enjoyed his company. We chased >up an elk herd, did some fishing and generally had a nice summer camp >together. > >The Col. and I were going to do some bird hunting over here in Eastern >WA. this week but this past weekend the Col. dropped me a line and told >me that Bear had got stomach sick and ran off. They couldn't find him >and the Col. needed to stay home and see if Bear was coming back or >what. By Wednesday, there was still no sign of Bear. > >I got a note from the Col. this evening. This is what it said. > >"Found Bear's body today in an old tree stump. If there are no dogs in >heaven then Im not going." > >I guess if that's the way it is up there. I ain't going neither. I >remain... > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' >Just needing to share. > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bear Date: 06 Nov 1999 17:33:56 -0600 Sorry to hear about the loss of "Bear" Captain Lahti. Having experienced this situation many times myself, I seem to get much comfort from the thought that even though it is tough to lose them when the time comes, the good times and memories make up for the short grieving period. I have always had a "riding partner" for the last 20 or more years and am fortunate enough to work in the woods where a dog has the best life imaginable. Every dog I ever had never seen a chain or been tied up. Just a life of trampin the woods and chasin squirrels when the opportunity presented itself. None of mine ever made it past 7 yrs. for one reason or another, logging is a tough life, but I am pretty certain they didn't have many regrets as far as them goin to heaven well I imagine they will as for weather i'll ever see them thats another matter... Northwoods -----Original Message----- >Captain, > >Martin Luther, noted theologian, concluded, after much study >on the subject, that pets and animals go to heaven when they die. > >Have a few waitin' for me. > >Victoria > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: more on blankets Date: 06 Nov 1999 17:00:22 +0000 Frank Fusco wrote: > > Many years ago I saw an article in some publication devoted to early > American history that described how to make a sleeping bag. I haven't made > one because the cost of good wool blankets is such that I do not care to > take a scissors to mine to experiment. Bearclaw, If one needed a particularly warm bed roll, this certainly sounds like the way to go about it. Along with the woven center blanket and the edges of all three sewn together, it might be wise to "quilt" all three layers with a simple single cross stitch in a grid pattern to keep it all from shifting. This was pointed out recently as a documented way of layering several blankets into one unit. If you are of a mind to try this and don't care to cut up $100 Whitney's or even less expensive Trade blankets you can get 100% wool surplus military blankets from outfits like " The Sportsman's Guide" for around $20 each. These cheap blankets might make up the "core" of your bag. You can bring up this company on your pc at . Their blanket offerings usually are gray military blankets and some are not 100% wool so be careful what you order. Check size too to make sure you get blankets big enough. I would consider treating with Fuller Brush Insect spray to ward off carpet beetles and larva. I would also consider not sewing the bag shut but pinning it with wood skewers or blanket pins to hold it together. This allows more versatility if you need to open the bedroll up for some other use like a match coat. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ron Chamberlain" Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: Buffalo hunt Date: 06 Nov 1999 18:09:59 -0700 >> > WYOMING WILDLIFE FEDERATION >> > APPLAUDS OPENING BUFFALO HUNT >> > >> > For Immediate Release; Contact: Lloyd Dorsey, phone 307-733-1707, >> > e-mail: ljdorsey @aol.com >> > >> > JACKSON, WY (November 2, 1999)-- Wyoming's oldest and largest >> sporting and >> > conservation organization expressed its strong support for the >> hunting of >> > wild buffalo that resumed in Jackson Hole this past week. The >> hunt had been >> > forestalled by a lawsuit filed by anti-hunting groups a year ago. The >> > Wyoming Wildlife Federation considered the buffalo hunt, and >> countering the >> > efforts of anti-hunting groups, as one of its highest >> priorities this past >> > year. >> > >> > Lloyd Dorsey, spokesman for the Wyoming Wildlife Federation, >> commented, "The >> > public should not allow narrow special interests such as eastern >> > anti-hunting >> > groups and their lawyers to dominate the management of precious >> > world-renowned resources." He continued, "The Wyoming Wildlife >> Federation >> > and its members have long been involved in collaboration on >> managing this >> > region's growing buffalo herds. Hunting is but a part of that overall >> > management scheme, an important part. Thousands of people across the >> > country >> > consider the buffalo the symbol of the American West, and many >> vie for an >> > appropriate opportunity to harvest one of these magnificent >> animals. This >> > chance to participate in Nature's bounty bodes well for the future >> > management of Wyoming's buffalo, and for those who cherish hunting and >> > wildlife traditions." >> > >> > The final hurdle to open the hunting season for buffalo in the >> Jackson Hole >> > area was taken Friday, October 29, by Bridger-Teton Forest >> officials when >> > they signed the order to open USFS lands to buffalo hunting. >> This action >> > effectively countered the portion of last year's lawsuit filed by the >> > anti-hunting groups, The Fund For Animals and the Humane Society of the >> > United States, requesting the halting of buffalo hunting on >> federal lands. >> > The State of Wyoming and the Wyoming Wildlife Federation had filed legal >> > arguments in Federal Court requesting that buffalo hunting be >> reinstated. >> > >> > The WWF maintains that public hunting of big game animals is a >> critical tool >> > of modern wildlife managers. Dorsey, Federation staffer at the >> Jackson Hole >> > Field Office, said further, "Sustainable big game herds and >> hunting has been >> > a successful formula throughout this century. This step to >> harvest a small >> > portion of a buffalo herd which now numbers over 500 animals will help >> > ensure >> > that this important component of the ecosystem will be enjoyed >> and treasured >> > by generations of Americans to come." >> > >> > This past Saturday during the initial hunting opportunity, two Wyoming >> > buffalo hunters harvested mature bulls in the foothills on the >> east side of >> > Jackson Hole. More hunters were expected to be issued licenses as the >> > season >> > continues into early winter. >> > >> > Contributing to the WWF effort to reinstate buffalo hunting in >> the Jackson >> > Hole area was the Jackson Hole Chapter of the Safari Club International, >> > High >> > Country Taxidermy of Jackson, and numerous private citizens >> from across the >> > country. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ron Chamberlain" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: more on blankets Date: 06 Nov 1999 18:16:41 -0700 >I would consider treating with Fuller Brush Insect spray to ward off >carpet beetles and larva. I would also consider not sewing the bag shut >but pinning it with wood skewers or blanket pins to hold it together. >This allows more versatility if you need to open the bedroll up for some >other use like a match coat. I remain... On a recent canoe trip with the Poison River Party, we had a canoe flip over, the owner of the canoe (I won't mention any names ) had blankets sewn together for a bedroll, 2 days later his bedroll was still wet around the sewn edges because the air couldn't get to them....another good reason to use skewers or blanket pins or a rope and simply tie the bottoms closed. YMOS, Ron ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bear Date: 07 Nov 1999 00:21:24 -0600 If we are blessed with one good dog in a lifetime we should consider= ourselves lucky.=A0 Those who enjoy more; have blessings to count.=A0=20 The eulogy to Bear brought to mind my good dog Jake, maybe one of the reasons I still use my old blankets is every time I look at the fringed edge on each;= I remember our camp when he was a 6 month pup on the White River where his enthusiasm for chewing an old dry deer leg he'd found got tangled up with= one edge of my blankets during the night.=A0=20 The most unfair aspect of life is, when you get that one good dog and get= him just exactly the way you want him, that he doesn't live as long as you.=A0= =20 Jake has been in the ground 5 years now after a good 15 year run; ain't many days I don't still think of him and have the memory warm my innards and bring a smile to my face.=A0=20 John... At 09:47 PM 11/5/99 +0000, you wrote: >Bear was just a baby when I first saw him some 12 years ago. But baby >rotwilers look a lot like little bear cubs and that's what the Major >called him when he brought Bear home. He was cute and cuddly and quit a >terror for a couple years but he grew into a big calm guardian of his >family. The Major was away a lot those first few years but Bear was >always there to look after his wife and two little girls. Bear did his >job and did it well. > >Bear liked to go camping with the major and I and one winter camp just a >few years back, he came along. It was cold and snowy and Bear was >feeling his age and the change in climate. By then Bear was getting on >in age and the Major had become a Col. We pitched our camp on a snowy >ridge in the Cascades that January with several brothers. The Col. >arranged a bed for Bear up by our heads. Some time in the middle of the >night Bear got sick and woke me to his heaving. I moved my head just in >time to avoid his supper. We cleaned up the mess and went back to bed >with our backs to each other and Bear tucked in between our legs. We all >slept warm that night. > >A couple years back the Col. brought Bear with him when we canoed on >Cooper Lake with "Old Blue" from Albany in my bateau and the Col. and >Bear in his birch bark. You could tell that Bear was feeling his age. He >was reluctant to get into that rickety birch bark but in he went and all >went well. Dang near as stiff as me only not just in the morning but >most all day. He had a good time and we enjoyed his company. We chased >up an elk herd, did some fishing and generally had a nice summer camp >together. > >The Col. and I were going to do some bird hunting over here in Eastern >WA. this week but this past weekend the Col. dropped me a line and told >me that Bear had got stomach sick and ran off. They couldn't find him >and the Col. needed to stay home and see if Bear was coming back or >what. By Wednesday, there was still no sign of Bear.=20 > >I got a note from the Col. this evening. This is what it said. > >"Found Bear's body today in an old tree stump.=A0 If there are no dogs in >heaven then Im not going." > >I guess if that's the way it is up there. I ain't going neither. I >remain... > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' >Just needing to share. > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/ ~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: more on blankets Date: 07 Nov 1999 01:19:29 -0600 Frank, The blanket strip weaving is the same basic idea as Anasazi rabbit skin robes.=20 Cut strips and weave them together. Their's were twisted with other cordage and woven tight for strength and loft. Insulation is a very old idea. =20 The overall construction is also similar to comforters where an uncut wool blanket or two is sewn inside an outer cover. For home use the cover was often flannel, canvas, wool and other cloth was also used. Mostly they made do= with what they had. A comforter differs from a lined quilt in that the inner filling is held in place by a series of yarn ties. I like to use blankets individually so I can leave on or throw off what I don't need, two or three spread out dry quicker than if piled together. In an unexpected extreme situation, if I need extra loft, leaves, boughs, needles and grass can be added between layers, if available. If I was cold in the city I'd use newspaper. Make do with what you've got. =20 I don't sew my blankets together, it reduces their utility. I have blanket pins, I've rarely used them. When you're concern is with horses and/or hostiles the last thing you need in a midnight emergency is to wiggle out of= a bag. If you're going to try and poison bugs try something like a little arsenic sprinkled inside, it offers fewer hazards to you and the environment than commercial bug spray. I've not found it necessary -- though I've had other woolens stored close to my blankets moth eaten, they've never touched the blankets. Over the years a little, oil of cedar, pennyroyal, spike and such have been rubbed or spilled on them. They have been well smoked. They have occasionally been sunned for a day. They've never really been washed so there's lots of me and my dog in them. =20 Can't imagine washed and perfumed blankets for a mountain man, like someone= I know suggested.=20 John... At 04:08 PM 11/6/99 -0600, you wrote: >=A0=A0=A0 Many years ago I saw an article in some publication devoted to= early >American history that described how to make a sleeping bag. The reference >was to 18th century and was directed towards hunters and soldiers of the >period. >=A0=A0=A0 I sent it to the Buckskin Report magazine where it was= republished. >Unfortunately, it was so long ago I cannot give proper credit to the >original source. However the technique makes sense and is in line with the >philosophy of the times to save, use and reuse everything that might have >some value. It also shows that, even then, there was an understanding of >what makes good insulation. >=A0=A0=A0 Briefly:=A0 you will need three or more blankets. one or two of= them can >be old and worn thin or only parts and pieces of blankets. two should be in >good condition. the two good ones are the outer and inner layers. the older >blankets are cut into strips 2" or 3" wide and as long as possible. after >the strips are cut, weave them as with a simple basket weave until you have >a woven layer the same size as your blankets. sew the woven ends to one >blanket so it does not unveave. after that is done lay the other blanket >over the entire works and stitch all around the whole affair. then fold= over >one time. stitch the feets part closed. stitch from the feets part about= one >half the way up on the open side. climb in, sleep warmly. >=A0=A0=A0 The principal is the same as with modern insulation, loft holds= more air >and when body-warmed retains the heat for more comfort than just another >layer of blanket. >=A0=A0=A0 This affair might be bulky but I am sure it would work. I haven't= made >one because the cost of good wool blankets is such that I do not care to >take a scissors to mine to experiment. >Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/ ~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RCZoder@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: more on blankets Date: 07 Nov 1999 08:41:25 EST One of the best and easiest ways to keep bugs out of wool is just to store it with some cedar. If you don't or can't use a chest just put some in your closet next to them. natural is better. As far as wool shrinking, my mom washed a throw rug once, not knowing it had wool mixed in it, she used hot water in a machine. Was a very strange looking object when it dried. thanks, Robert ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Orsa Salt Date: 08 Nov 1999 00:29:45 EST Ho Buck! I just got you new "Clark & Sons Mercantile" catalog.......outstanding! I reckon I need about one of everything. I think I've figured out where "sea salt" comes from but kinda at a loss for "orsa salt".... I might need some of that too! Ymos, Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Orsa Salt Date: 08 Nov 1999 17:20:22 -0800 Hi Steve, Thank you on the catalog, "orsa salt" is the salt that Jed Smith wrote about seeing the Indians boiling near the Great Salt Lake in his travels across those bad lands, now Utah. It's a salt much like the sea salt in texture, similier taste, but pinkish - if you will in color. Makes for interesting talk at an encampment if your west of the Mississippi. Buck _____________________ On Sun, 07 November 1999, SWcushing@aol.com wrote: > > Ho Buck! > > I just got you new "Clark & Sons Mercantile" catalog.......outstanding! I > reckon I need about one of everything. > I think I've figured out where "sea salt" comes from but kinda at a loss for > "orsa salt".... I might need some of that too! > > Ymos, > > Steve Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html _________________________________ Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: La Mecate Date: 08 Nov 1999 09:02:35 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF29C7.FFDD7F00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable When the second man comes around, and finds a piece of work imperfectly = done, whether it be cleaning the firearms, making a hair rope, or a skin = lodge, or washing a horse's back, he does not threaten the offender with = personal chastisement, but calls up another man and asks him, "Can you do this properly ?" "Yes, sir." "I will give you ten dollars to do it;" and the ten dollars is set down = to the account of the inefficient campkeeper. But he does not risk = forfeiting another ten dollars in the same manner. (River of the = West..Victor) If an campkeeper should be able to build a hair rope then I believe I = should be able to do it too. I have not been able to find instructions = anywhere else. Can anyone help me? Among other questions I wonder should it be twisted or braided and how = do you group the hairs together without leaving weak spots? Ymos Wynn ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF29C7.FFDD7F00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

When the second man comes around, and finds a piece of = work=20 imperfectly done, whether it be cleaning the firearms, making a hair = rope, or a=20 skin lodge, or washing a horse's back, he does not threaten the offender = with=20 personal chastisement, but calls up another man and asks = him,

"Can you do this properly ?"

"Yes, sir."

"I will give you ten dollars to do it;" and the ten = dollars is=20 set down to the account of the inefficient campkeeper. But he does not = risk=20 forfeiting another ten dollars in the same manner. (River of the=20 West..Victor)

If an  campkeeper should be able to build a hair = rope then=20 I believe I should be able to do it too. I have not been able to find=20 instructions anywhere else. Can anyone help me?

Among other questions I wonder should it be twisted or = braided=20 and how do you group the hairs together without leaving weak = spots?

Ymos

Wynn

------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF29C7.FFDD7F00-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: La Mecate Date: 08 Nov 1999 23:28:04 -0600 Please keep in mind "Rivers of the West" only documents what a man (noted= for telling good stories) will tell a woman in bed. John... At 09:02 AM 11/8/99 -0700, you wrote:=20 > > When the second man comes around, and finds a piece of work imperfectly done, > whether it be cleaning the firearms, making a hair rope, or a skin lodge,= or > washing a horse's back, he does not threaten the offender with personal > chastisement, but calls up another man and asks him, > > "Can you do this properly ?" > > "Yes, sir." > > "I will give you ten dollars to do it;" and the ten dollars is set down to > the account of the inefficient campkeeper. But he does not risk forfeiting > another ten dollars in the same manner. (River of the West..Victor)=20 > If an=A0 campkeeper should be able to build a hair rope then I believe I should > be able to do it too. I have not been able to find instructions anywhere > else. Can anyone help me? > > Among other questions I wonder should it be twisted or braided and how do you > group the hairs together without leaving weak spots? > > Ymos > > Wynn John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: La Mecate Date: 08 Nov 1999 21:45:17 -0800 (PST) On Mon, 8 Nov 1999, John Kramer wrote: > Please keep in mind "Rivers of the West" only documents what a man (noted for > telling good stories) will tell a woman in bed. > > John... Geez John... that don't rule out a whole lot then does it Regards Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders lnewbill@uidaho.edu : http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: MtMan-List: Twisting Rope Date: 08 Nov 1999 22:17:55 -0800 Wynn asked: If an campkeeper should be able to build a hair rope then I believe I should be able to do it too. I have not been able to find instructions anywhere else. Can anyone help me?Among other questions I wonder should it be twisted or braided and how do you group the hairs together without leaving weak spots? (ANSWER) This is going to be hard without visuals. The process of twisting rope from fiber starts with stripped fiber -- long hair (from a horse's mane or tail, caution while collecting) or plant fibers -- the fibers from the various types of yucca spears are great. The plant fiber must be released from its binder (the green pulp that forms the body of the spear) by stripping the pulp with fingernail, back edge of knife, etc. One you have a supply of fibers form a bundle with enough fibers to get two matched bundles, anywhere from 10 fibers up per bundle depending on the thickness of cordage you are making. Now comes the hard part to explain. Even up one end of the bundle and knot it near the end. Separate into two equal bundles to form a "Y" and hold this in the left hand, pinching the base of the Y between thumb and forefinger, so the "Y" opens towards your other hand. Using your right hand, grab one of the bundles about one inch from where you're holding them with the left hand, and roll the fibers between thumb and forefinger, thus putting as much twist in as you readily can. Your right thumb is on top and moves away from your body, thus twisting the top of this bundle away from your body. Without releasing the twist, lift this bundle up and over the other one, and move the grip of your left hand about half-an-inch further along the bundle, so that you are now "trapping" most of the twisted part against the other bundle. Now grab the other bundle, bring it around to the top, and repeat the exact same thing. After you've done this for a couple of inches, you should begin to get a recognizable piece of cordage which does not particularly want to unwind. The secret of rope is when twisting two or more bundles in a certain direction, they want to untwist by wrapping themselves around each other in the other direction. Once this has occured, the rope is stable, since some of the twist has balanced out leaving a net twist to hold everything together. It's not real obvious till you do it that this is what the above manipulation accomplishes. There is an easy to make machine which twists several runs of twine with a common crank, until they countertwist themselves into rope, but the above process is a simple but laborious way of making the basic cordage. Once into the rhythm you can churn out 2-3 inches a minute, with no special equipment at all. It is easy to make fine strong cordage suitable for snares, etc. Once you get into the swing of this (which is easiest to practice with thread or somewhat sticky fibers -- I always have trouble with hair) you will find that you can blend in more fibers as you get near the end of a bundle, to maintain the thickness indefinitely. Twisting, like spinning, blends the new fibers into the bundle, and once they've been incorporated for a few inches they don't want to pull out. There are also advanced tricks where the two bundles can be rolled at the same time between palm and thigh twisting up several inches per pass, but this is a real knack and easy to mess up. This is sort of like trying to explain sign language without pictures, so I hope this helps. Pat Quilter ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: La Mecate Date: 09 Nov 1999 05:35:28 -0600 ---Original Message----- >>If an campkeeper should be able to build a hair rope then I believe I should be able to do it too. I have not been able to find instructions anywhere else. Can anyone help me? There aren't many sources of instruction in this art as only a handfull of people still practice this art. Here are a couple of books that I would recommend if you are seriously interested in learning more: "Encyclopedia of Rawhide and Leather Braiding" by Bruce Grant "Leather Braiding" by Bruce Grant Both of these books are readily available.Basically, all of the weaves that are used in leather and rawhide braiding can be used for hair. A couple things I would point out are obviously you must have an adequate supply of hair available to work with. You can buy it if required and this may be something to consider as I would say fully half of the work involved is preparing the hair for braiding if you collect your own. Collecting your own can be done by cutting small bunches randomly from the base of the mane and tale and forming them into bundles that are approx. as big around as a pencil and as long as the hair is. You next have to go through a process of removing all hairs in every bundle which are short so as to leave you with a bundle with all hairs being the same length, and also all of the ends must be cut off even. White hair is finer and dark hair is courser so to make equal size bundles, it takes less dark hair. All the while you prepare the hair it must be kept nice and in order. Then you can begin braiding with several strands and this is not difficult, just pick a weave and remember you begin with several strands of varying lengths so when you come to the end each strand at a different point of the rope or whatever you are making you just tie in another strand. This is so there are no weak points. There are many other tricks and techniques to learn I could send you some diagrams on how to prepare the hair and some basic braids if you would like. I should also point out that this is quite time consuming and a slow process. Many of the remaining horse hair braided or hitched items that one finds these days have been made by folks in prison with nothing better to do. Good luck, Northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver & Cougar Date: 08 Nov 1999 21:25:53 -0500 (EST) Click on Wildlife (mis)Management Title. The following link is a 7 minute audio clip about how the animal liberation lunatics in cohorts with the limousine liberals are creating havoc in Massachusetts, etc. by drastically altering the wildlife balance of beaver [your computer will need a soundcard and the Real Audio software]. http://search.npr.org/cf/cmn/cmnd01fm.cfm?PrgDate=11/07/1999&PrgID=6 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: Beaver & Cougar - #2 Date: 08 Nov 1999 21:34:05 -0500 (EST) --WebTV-Mail-6661-618 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit use the link below. previous link didn't work (error message). exact title of program to click on is WildLife Protection. --WebTV-Mail-6661-618 Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Message/RFC822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhQE8Xshez5KPdBMykNUThJ01w3BAAIVALRSPGR+eRQqmexncY1Spp8K2pZR Message-ID: <11160-38277FCE-272@storefull-275.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Content-Disposition: Inline Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Weekend All Things Considered Address:http://search.npr.org/cf/cmn/cmnpd01fm.cfm?PrgDate=11/07/1999&PrgID=6 --WebTV-Mail-6661-618-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:In search of Date: 09 Nov 1999 20:43:12 EST Hunting for a trade coin from the Chicken Ranch. Want to do a reproduction for a rendezvous coin. Can any of you men in Texas or anywhere else help. TrapRJoe@aol.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:In search of Date: 09 Nov 1999 20:10:07 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BF2AEE.6ADE4D80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Joe, I don't have any idea where you would find such a thing. You might = try someone in that area. [ around La Grange ] I'll ask around, and = see what I can come up with. Something like that is going to be hard to = find since they shut down about 1978 , if I recall correctly. Pendleton -----Original Message----- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 5:44 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List:In search of =20 =20 Hunting for a trade coin from the Chicken Ranch. Want to do a = reproduction=20 for a rendezvous coin. Can any of you men in Texas or anywhere else = help. =20 =20 =20 TrapRJoe@aol.com =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BF2AEE.6ADE4D80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Joe,
   I don't have any idea = where you=20 would find such a thing.  You might try someone in that area.  = [=20 around La Grange ]  I'll ask around, and see what I can come up = with. =20 Something like that is going to be hard to find since they shut down = about 1978=20 , if I recall correctly.
Pendleton
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 TrapRJoe@aol.com <TrapRJoe@aol.com>
To: = hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Tuesday, November 09, 1999 5:44 PM
Subject: Re: = MtMan-List:In=20 search of

Hunting for a trade coin from the = Chicken=20 Ranch.  Want to do a reproduction
for a rendezvous = coin.  Can=20 any of you men in Texas or anywhere else=20 = help.



        &nbs= p;            = ;            =   =20 TrapRJoe@aol.com

------------= ----------
hist_text=20 list info: http://www.xm= ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BF2AEE.6ADE4D80-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Laura Glise" Subject: MtMan-List: Deschamps Sisters Date: 10 Nov 1999 01:11:39 -0500 I've been reading and researching -- and I came across a reference to women in "Fur Traders Trappers and Mountain Men of the Upper Missouri," edited by LeRoy R. Hafen. The trader referenced was David Dawson Mitchell. The reference cited Mitchell married one of the "notorious" Deschamp sisters at Fort Union, then in 1840 he legally married Martha Eliza Berry in 1861. The note of a "notorious" Deschamp sister perked my interest. Does anyone know of these (wild women) sisters? Laura Glise Access your e-mail anywhere, at any time. Get your FREE BellSouth Web Mail account today! http://webmail.bellsouth.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: AMM & New Outdoor Life Channel (far out thoughts) Date: 10 Nov 1999 22:01:16 -0500 (EST) 1. televising the various territorial rondezvous (Live or tape) to reach a greater audience. 2. televising rondezvous shooting matches (Live or tape) thru NRA-NMLRA sponsorship. [BTW, are various shooters ranked as to their marksmanship - who was/is the best flintlock pistoleer-rifleman in the AMM?]. 3. historical educational programs on clothing, edibles, Indian sign language, teepees, canoes, biographies of the voyageurs, mtmen, etc., etc. E-CHIK, AH-HO from Michigan Territory ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM & New Outdoor Life Channel (far out thoughts) Date: 10 Nov 1999 19:40:22 +0000 JON MARINETTI wrote: > > 1. televising the various territorial rondezvous (Live or tape) to > reach a greater audience. > > 2. televising rondezvous shooting matches (Live or tape) thru NRA-NMLRA > sponsorship. > [BTW, are various shooters ranked as to their marksmanship - who was/is > the best flintlock pistoleer-rifleman in the AMM?]. > > 3. historical educational programs on clothing, edibles, Indian sign > language, teepees, canoes, biographies of the voyageurs, mtmen, etc., > etc. Brother, I missed something. What brought on this epiphany? I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BarneyPFife@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM & New Outdoor Life Channel (far out thoughts) Date: 10 Nov 1999 23:15:29 EST Cap't., don't think you missed anything; seems to me it was just jon havin' a brain fart , and not a bad one at that. Barn ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM & New Outdoor Life Channel (far out Date: 10 Nov 1999 22:06:55 -0600 Washtahay- >JON MARINETTI wrote: >> >> 1. televising the various territorial rondezvous (Live or tape) to >> reach a greater audience. and then the Capt. wrote: >I missed something. What brought on this epiphany? I remain... > Captain, I think I have it figured out. From all the television and politics talk, the search for Chicken Ranch coins, and general inane nonsense-this list must have been taken over by a sports bar. Just watch-some idiot will start posting letters claiming Bill Gates is tracking e-mail to give away money, and that some poor sick child wants to forward an e-mail until the millenium. Does anyone know where the history list went? LongWalker c. du B. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM & New Outdoor Life Channel (far out Date: 10 Nov 1999 22:43:22 -0600 1. What new Outdoor Life channel? =20 2. Are you trying to start, a never to end, major fight with item #2 (the parenthetical part)?? John... At 10:01 PM 11/10/99 -0500, JON MARINETTI wrote: >1.=A0 televising the various territorial rondezvous (Live or tape) to >reach a greater audience. > >2.=A0 televising rondezvous shooting matches (Live or tape) thru NRA-NMLRA >sponsorship. >[BTW, are various shooters ranked as to their marksmanship - who was/is >the best flintlock pistoleer-rifleman in the AMM?]. > >3.=A0 historical educational programs on clothing, edibles, Indian sign >language, teepees, canoes, biographies of the voyageurs, mtmen, etc., >etc. > >----------------------------------- >E-CHIK, AH-HO from Michigan Territory >----------------------------------- Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM & New Outdoor Life Channel (far out thoughts) Date: 10 Nov 1999 20:49:17 +0000 BarneyPFife@aol.com wrote: > > Cap't., don't think you missed anything; seems to me it was just jon havin' > a brain fart , and not a bad one at that. Barn Barn, Figured I had missed some posts. The ideas are worth discussion. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM & New Outdoor Life Channel (far out thoughts) Date: 11 Nov 1999 00:16:06 -0800 History list gone. Beaver gone too. John (BIG JOHN) Hunt Longhunter Mountainman southwest Ohio ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 8:06 PM > Washtahay- > >JON MARINETTI wrote: > >> > >> 1. televising the various territorial rondezvous (Live or tape) to > >> reach a greater audience. > > > and then the Capt. wrote: > >I missed something. What brought on this epiphany? I remain... > > > Captain, I think I have it figured out. From all the television and > politics talk, the search for Chicken Ranch coins, and general inane > nonsense-this list must have been taken over by a sports bar. Just > watch-some idiot will start posting letters claiming Bill Gates is tracking > e-mail to give away money, and that some poor sick child wants to forward > an e-mail until the millenium. > Does anyone know where the history list went? > LongWalker c. du B. > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM & New Outdoor Life Channel (far out Date: 10 Nov 1999 21:57:29 +0000 Jim Colburn wrote: > > Washtahay- > >JON MARINETTI wrote: > >> > >> 1. televising the various territorial rondezvous (Live or tape) to > >> reach a greater audience. > Captain, I think I have it figured out. LongWalker, I think you are right. I'm wondering if we really want to discuss this in public? YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM & New Outdoor Life Channel (far out thoughts) Date: 11 Nov 1999 07:21:37 -0500 John Hunt Wrote: > "Beaver gone too." John, >>I have heard of a valley where there are as many beaver as staaars in the sky..... D > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kevin Pitman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM & New Outdoor Life Channel (far out thoughts) Date: 11 Nov 1999 05:34:22 PST ...and they holler,"Pick me, Bill Tyler, pick me." Can anyone guide me to a location (site) for detailed instructions on making a wahinke (sp?), or can anyone tell me here on the list or contact me off-list at kpmtnman@hotmail.com I am going to take my first crack at brain tanning this winter and am in the process of accumultaing the tools. YMOS, Kevin >From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM & New Outdoor Life Channel (far out thoughts) >Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 07:21:37 -0500 > > >John Hunt Wrote: > > > "Beaver gone too." > >John, > >>I have heard of a valley where there are as many beaver as staaars in >the >sky..... >D > > > > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Porter" Subject: MtMan-List: Alamo Date: 11 Nov 1999 11:17:01 CST Good day to all, Do any of you fine people know where I can find info (pics, articles, etc.) on the Alamo on the web. I really need info on the Mexican side more than any thing else. Thanks, Matt ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kevin Pitman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alamo Date: 11 Nov 1999 10:42:35 PST Might try historynet.com Also might try an engine search for some of the particulars...ie) Santa Anna, Arredondo, de Cos, Ugartechea, etc. YMOS, Kevin >From: "Matt Porter" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: Alamo >Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 11:17:01 CST > >Good day to all, >Do any of you fine people know where I can find info (pics, articles, etc.) >on the Alamo on the web. I really need info on the Mexican side more than >any thing else. >Thanks, >Matt > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BarneyPFife@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alamo Date: 11 Nov 1999 17:00:04 EST here's a couple of good links for you Kevin, and all the other Texians, and Southwest afficianados, too....... The Alamo: Shrine of Texas Liberty Alamo de Parras, The Story of the Alamo's Early History Barn ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wahintke Date: 11 Nov 1999 17:31:53 -0500 Book of Buckskinning, Volume III, page 93 offers advice on constructing a wahintke. I made one last year with ease. Moscow Hide & Fur supplied the elk antler and lawnmower blade supplied the steel. Rawhide wrap secured them together. Very simple and very effective tool. Tom Kevin Pitman wrote: > > Can anyone guide me to a location (site) for detailed instructions on making > a wahinke (sp?) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Farseer Subject: RE: MtMan-List: AMM & New Outdoor Life Channel (far out thoughts) Date: 11 Nov 1999 19:44:02 -0600 Iron Belly know history list like his own children. Maybe he help you. > > History list gone. Beaver gone too. > > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: Reply to AMM & New Outdoor Life Channel Date: 11 Nov 1999 22:02:59 -0500 (EST) Capt'n, Barn: epiphany came from watching a 30 minute skeet & trap competition on a brand new cable channel (the Outdoor Life Network called OLN) and thought what about the few - the forgotten - the historical reenactors with their period accurate muzzleloaders? when was the last time any of us remembers a muzzleloading shoot (not modern inline but replica antique) broadcast? - 1970's? with the old off-the-air The American Sportsman? yep, i guess it was a brain belch or maybe one of the memory cells (from some good old days) sparking that contains the data from when my 1763 Charleville sparked, flashed and belched the round ball thru rod of iron and into the target bullseye at 50 yards on the first shot of the day. E-CHIK, AH-HO from Michigan Territory ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Reply to AMM & New Outdoor Life Channel Date: 11 Nov 1999 19:35:20 +0000 JON MARINETTI wrote: > when was the last time any of > us remembers a muzzleloading shoot (not modern inline but replica > antique) broadcast? - 1970's? with the old off-the-air The American > Sportsman? Jon, So now that we know what caused it, where do you want to go with this? > > yep, i guess it was a brain belch or maybe one of the memory cells (from > some good old days) sparking that contains the data from when my 1763 > Charleville sparked, flashed and belched the round ball thru rod of iron > and into the target bullseye at 50 yards on the first shot of the day. Love my Charlevill too. Real prize winner, she is. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Reply to AMM & New Outdoor Life Channel Date: 12 Nov 1999 06:11:34 -0800 On Thu, 11 November 1999, JON MARINETTI wrote: (the Outdoor Life Network called OLN) and thought what about the few - the forgotten - the historical reenactors with their period accurate muzzleloaders? when was the last time any of us remembers a muzzleloading shoot (not modern inline but replica antique) broadcast? - 1970's? with the old off-the-air The American Sportsman? > __ Jon, That was the American Sportsman Shoot in 1978, held in Jackson Hole WY, at the time of John Wayne's death. The shooters where the back-ground actors from the movie being made at that time - titled "Wind River" later changed to "The Mountain Men". American Sportsman gave two thousand dollars for prize money for the (6) different shooting events. Hi-light of the event was Chuch Heston (now NRA Pres.) missing his target and having to eat it, a raw egg. It was only a year or so later that the American Sportsman show was cancelled. I saw a blackpowder shotgun match on one of the cable shows with Robert Stack, Bob Conrad and several others like Jed Brown - shooting prec. doubles - Stack made everyone look sick. Of course he should being a 50's gold metal winner in shotgun and also shot in the 80's in blackpowder rifle comp. in Japan. That was in the early 1980's of anything shown nationally, have seen local blackpowder matches here in the Rockies in the last few years. Just my two cents worth. Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html _________________________________ Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kevin Pitman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wahintke Date: 12 Nov 1999 06:18:42 PST Thanks for the info. I don't have vol. iii yet, so I geuss that's next on the list. SInce the topics have turned to movies of late, I have another question. In "Jeremiah Johnson", when he is with Lapp in the snow (after the griz incident) all you hear is music and they are looking at a couple of trees with posts sunk in the ground. Is that supposed to be a fleshing pole setup or am I missing something? Just curious. YMOS, Kevin >From: tom roberts >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wahintke >Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 17:31:53 -0500 > >Book of Buckskinning, Volume III, page 93 offers advice on constructing a >wahintke. I made one last year with ease. Moscow Hide & Fur supplied the >elk >antler and lawnmower blade supplied the steel. Rawhide wrap secured them >together. Very simple and very effective tool. > >Tom > > >Kevin Pitman wrote: > > > > > Can anyone guide me to a location (site) for detailed instructions on >making > > a wahinke (sp?) > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Smith Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Reply to AMM & New Outdoor Life Channel] Date: 12 Nov 1999 09:30:42 EST This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------NetAddressPart-00--=_LoEQ7120S0e31c650a8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Buck wrote: On Thu, 11 November 1999, JON MARINETTI wrote: (the Outdoor Life Network called OLN) and thought what about the few - th= e forgotten - the historical reenactors with their period accurate muzzleloaders? when was the last time any of us remembers a muzzleloadin= g shoot (not modern inline but replica antique) broadcast? - 1970's? with t= he old off-the-air The American Sportsman? > = __ Jon, That was the American Sportsman Shoot in 1978, held in Jackson Hole WY, a= t the time of John Wayne's death. The shooters where the back-ground actors fro= m the movie being made at that time - titled "Wind River" later changed to "The= Mountain Men". American Sportsman gave two thousand dollars for prize mon= ey for the (6) different shooting events. Hi-light of the event was Chuch He= ston (now NRA Pres.) missing his target and having to eat it, a raw egg. It was only a year or so later that the American Sportsman show was cancelled. I saw a blackpowder shotgun match on one of the cable shows with Robert S= tack, Bob Conrad and several others like Jed Brown - shooting prec. doubles - S= tack made everyone look sick. Of course he should being a 50's gold metal winn= er in shotgun and also shot in the 80's in blackpowder rifle comp. in Japan. Th= at was in the early 1980's of anything shown nationally, have seen local blackpowder matches here in the Rockies in the last few years. Just my tw= o cents worth. Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Hey Buck, Is that the shoot you took the picture of Heston eating the egg that was = in your store, didn't know where that photo was taken ? If you ever want to get rid of the belt buckle American Sportsman gave yo= u for being the range officer of that shoot, let me have first shot at it. Called your old work number and someone else answered, said you went back= to engineering, e-mail me your new number brother. Later Concho ------NetAddressPart-00--=_LoEQ7120S0e31c650a8 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
D.L."Concho" Smith * = Locks Bank, PA. * = Historical Coordinator Park & Rec. Services

Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. ------NetAddressPart-00--=_LoEQ7120S0e31c650a8-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Reply to AMM & New Outdoor Life Channel] Date: 12 Nov 1999 07:49:35 -0700 --------------DB10977CB1BD355D9F27B5A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Last week, on the Outdoor Life channel, I think the "Great Outdoors" program, they showed a canandian rendezvous with hawk and knife throwing and a small shooting match. More of a general interest in all aspects of reenacting than a full blown contest. I don't know if the public would be interested in a whole show on just shooting, look at the interest amoung our group. Concho Smith wrote: > Buck wrote: > On Thu, 11 November 1999, JON MARINETTI wrote: > (the Outdoor Life Network called OLN) and thought what about the few - the > forgotten - the historical reenactors with their period accurate > muzzleloaders? when was the last time any of us remembers a muzzleloading > shoot (not modern inline but replica antique) broadcast? - 1970's? with the > old off-the-air The American Sportsman? > > > __ > Jon, > > That was the American Sportsman Shoot in 1978, held in Jackson Hole WY, at the > time of John Wayne's death. The shooters where the back-ground actors from the > movie being made at that time - titled "Wind River" later changed to "The > Mountain Men". American Sportsman gave two thousand dollars for prize money > for the (6) different shooting events. Hi-light of the event was Chuch Heston > (now NRA Pres.) missing his target and having to eat it, a raw egg. > It was only a year or so later that the American Sportsman show was > cancelled. > > I saw a blackpowder shotgun match on one of the cable shows with Robert Stack, > Bob Conrad and several others like Jed Brown - shooting prec. doubles - Stack > made everyone look sick. Of course he should being a 50's gold metal winner in > shotgun and also shot in the 80's in blackpowder rifle comp. in Japan. That > was in the early 1980's of anything shown nationally, have seen local > blackpowder matches here in the Rockies in the last few years. Just my two > cents worth. > > Later, > Buck Conner > _________________________________ > Hey Buck, > > Is that the shoot you took the picture of Heston eating the egg that was in > your store, didn't know where that photo was taken ? > > If you ever want to get rid of the belt buckle American Sportsman gave you for > being the range officer of that shoot, let me have first shot at it. > > Called your old work number and someone else answered, said you went back to > engineering, e-mail me your new number brother. > > Later > Concho > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > D.L."Concho" Smith * Locks Bank, PA. * Historical Coordinator Park & > Rec. Services > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at > http://webmail.netscape.com. --------------DB10977CB1BD355D9F27B5A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Last week, on the Outdoor Life channel, I think the "Great Outdoors" program, they showed a canandian rendezvous with hawk and knife throwing and a small shooting match. More of a general interest in all aspects of reenacting than a full blown contest. I don't know if the public would be interested in a whole show on just shooting, look at the interest amoung our group.

Concho Smith wrote: 

Buck <buck.conner@uswestmail.net> wrote:
On Thu, 11 November 1999, JON MARINETTI wrote:
(the Outdoor Life Network called OLN) and thought what about the few - the
forgotten - the historical reenactors with their period accurate
muzzleloaders?  when was the last time any of us remembers a muzzleloading
shoot (not modern inline but replica antique) broadcast? - 1970's? with the
old off-the-air The American Sportsman?
> 
__
Jon,

That was the American Sportsman Shoot in 1978, held in Jackson Hole WY, at the
time of John Wayne's death. The shooters where the back-ground actors from the
movie being made at that time - titled "Wind River" later changed to "The
Mountain Men". American Sportsman gave two thousand dollars for prize money
for the (6) different shooting events. Hi-light of the event was Chuch Heston
(now NRA Pres.) missing his target and having to eat it, a raw egg.
It was only a year or so later that the American Sportsman show was
cancelled.

I saw a blackpowder shotgun match on one of the cable shows with Robert Stack,
Bob Conrad and several others like Jed Brown - shooting prec. doubles - Stack
made everyone look sick. Of course he should being a 50's gold metal winner in
shotgun and also shot in the 80's in blackpowder rifle comp. in Japan. That
was in the early 1980's of anything shown nationally, have seen local
blackpowder matches here in the Rockies in the last few years. Just my two
cents worth.

Later,
Buck Conner
_________________________________
Hey Buck,

Is that the shoot you took the picture of Heston eating the egg that was in
your store, didn't know where that photo was taken ?

If you ever want to get rid of the belt buckle American Sportsman gave you for
being the range officer of that shoot, let me have first shot at it.

Called your old work number and someone else answered, said you went back to
engineering, e-mail me your new number brother.

Later
Concho

D.L."Concho" Smith * Locks Bank, PA. * Historical Coordinator Park & Rec. Services

Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com.
  --------------DB10977CB1BD355D9F27B5A0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronald Schrotter Subject: MtMan-List: shooting on TV Date: 12 Nov 1999 09:24:38 -0800 (PST) ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronald Schrotter Date: 12 Nov 1999 09:27:16 -0800 (PST) Hey, I ate breakfast with Chuck that day in Jackson Hole. A lot of fine AMM brothers{and sisters} were there. I didn't realize it was that long ago. Thanks for the reminder. DOG ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sickler, Louis L" Subject: MtMan-List: Yankee Doodle Date: 12 Nov 1999 13:50:59 -0700 Ho the List, I found this on a site called 'Primary Source Documents' (www.ukans.edu/carrie/docs/texts/yankee.htm). There was some discussion previously about this song that turned into a discussion about pasta. No "macaroni' here.......... YANKEE DOODLE Father and I went down to camp, Along with Captain Gooding; And there we saw the men and boys, As thick as hasty pudding. Yankee doodle, keep it up, Yankee doodle dandy; Mind the music and the step, And with the girls be handy. There was Captain Washington Upon a slapping stallion, A-giving orders to his men, I guess there was a million. And then the feathers on his hat, They looked so' tarnal fin-a, I wanted pockily to get To give to my Jemima. And then we saw a swamping gun, Large as a log of maple; Upon a deuced little cart, A load for father's cattle. And every time they shoot it off, It takes a horn of powder; It makes a noise like father's gun, Only a nation louder. I went as nigh to one myself, As' Siah's underpinning; And father went as nigh agin, I thought the deuce was in him. We saw a little barrel, too, The heads were made of leather; They knocked upon it with little clubs, And called the folks together. And there they'd fife away like fun, And play on cornstalk fiddles, And some had ribbons red as blood, All bound around their middles. The troopers, too, would gallop up And fire right in our faces; It scared me almost to death To see them run such races. Uncle Sam came there to change Some pancakes and some onions, For' lasses cake to carry home To give his wife and young ones. But I can't tell half I see They kept up such a smother; So I took my hat off, made a bow, And scampered home to mother. Cousin Simon grew so bold, I thought he would have cocked it; It scared me so I streaked it off, And hung by father's pocket. And there I saw a pumpkin shell, As big as mother's basin; And every time they touched it off, They scampered like the nation. Yankee doodle, keep it up, Yankee doodle dandy; Mind the music and the step, And with the girls be handy Sorry, there was no further documentation for the time frame of this version, nor any other source info. Appears to be a much more 'period' piece than other, more familiar versions, though. Lou Sickler Colorado Territory ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Shooting on camera Date: 12 Nov 1999 14:09:52 -0800 On Fri, 12 November 1999, Ronald Schrotter wrote: > > Hey, I ate breakfast with Chuck that day in Jackson > Hole. A lot of fine AMM brothers{and sisters} were > there. I didn't realize it was that long ago. Thanks > for the reminder. DOG > Dog, Do you remember how Chuck acted when I told him he had to eat that raw egg; pretty good sport about it. When he walked to the target frame he put his hand to his mouth like he was going to clear his throat. What he did was put a round ball in his mouth. When he ate the raw egg he claimed to the camera that I had cheated and gave him a hard egg - holding the ball up with egg dripping off it for everyone to see. Everyone got a kick out of him, fun experience for most of us, even with somethings wrong. Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html _________________________________ Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GHickman@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wahintke Date: 12 Nov 1999 17:31:53 EST troberts@gdi.net writes: << Book of Buckskinning, Volume III, page 93 offers advice on constructing a wahintke. >> I couldn't find the wahnitke at the reference you gave. Could you check it? Thanks. Ghosting Wolf ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wahintke Date: 12 Nov 1999 21:52:34 -0500 I'm looking at it right now. The article, titled "Making a Hide Scraper", begins on page 93 of Volume III. The illustration is Figure 5. Tom GHickman@aol.com wrote: > troberts@gdi.net writes: > > << Book of Buckskinning, Volume III, page 93 offers advice on constructing a > wahintke. >> > I couldn't find the wahnitke at the reference you gave. Could you check it? > Thanks. > > Ghosting Wolf > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: Reply to Kramer, Barney (ref. to Buck, Moore) Date: 12 Nov 1999 23:18:50 -0500 (EST) John - you're right. getting everybody to say who is the best marksman [it's definitely not this writer] may be a touchy subject and could possibly lead to a flame war. Thanks again to Buck's treasured cache of memories, it sounds like Robert Stack was close to #1 in 1978 - hope it's still true today. do definitely remember watching on TV that program and Heston pull the roundball out of his mouth and the laughter that resulted. His son Fraser had to eat the egg too after missing his target. Dang good folks. Hollywood needs more Chuck Hestons and Bob Stacks - God bless 'em. The Outdoor Life Network is on cable channel 74 in Michigan - don't know where else it is available. It is affiliated with Field & Stream and Outdoor Life magazines. Barn: Thanks to Mike Moore's input will keep trackin OLN for flintlock ML events. probably emailing them at www.outdoorlife.com or www.greatoutdoors.com with our two cents worth will help to keep that type of programming. that's where i was thinking to go with the subject thread. E-CHIK, AH-HO from Michigan Territory ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: michael pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Twisting Rope Date: 13 Nov 1999 00:00:17 -0600 have a small tool that is made out of wood that is used to twist rope---easy to make it is for 3 stran twisted rope and it sure works good and easy ---have seen them made out of steel also---have made several nice ropes out of hay binder twine---am hunting right now contact me after thanksgiving and I will try to send you a sketch of how to make it or might even make you one and send it along with instructions of how to use it---I usto use it in some of my demonstrations for the boy scouts of things a mountan man did and how it was done---my granddad usto weave horsehair ropes but it was not really weaving it was a combination of plating and tyeing---I never learned the way but now wish i had---going up on magnetic mountain in the morning---trying for a shot at old "dirty point" saw him again during ML season and going back with the 54in the morning for regular rifle season. Danny Caywood also saw him and couldnt get a shot. have a plan to trick him for the next couple or few days may get a shot.--also saw a nice basket rack 10 point up on the mountain so it's going to be hard to make a choice if he comes by.. =+= HAWK Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield dr. Palm Harbor Florida 34684 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com On Mon, 8 Nov 1999 22:17:55 -0800 Pat Quilter writes: >Wynn asked: >If an campkeeper should be able to build a hair rope then I believe I >should >be able to do it too. I have not been able to find instructions >anywhere >else. Can anyone help me?Among other questions I wonder should it be >twisted >or braided and how do you group the hairs together without leaving >weak >spots? >(ANSWER) >This is going to be hard without visuals. The process of twisting rope >from >fiber starts with stripped fiber -- long hair (from a horse's mane or >tail, >caution while collecting) or plant fibers -- the fibers from the >various >types of yucca spears are great. The plant fiber must be released from >its >binder (the green pulp that forms the body of the spear) by stripping >the >pulp with fingernail, back edge of knife, etc. One you have a supply >of >fibers form a bundle with enough fibers to get two matched bundles, >anywhere >from 10 fibers up per bundle depending on the thickness of cordage you >are >making. >Now comes the hard part to explain. Even up one end of the bundle and >knot >it near the end. Separate into two equal bundles to form a "Y" and >hold this >in the left hand, pinching the base of the Y between thumb and >forefinger, >so the "Y" opens towards your other hand. Using your right hand, grab >one of >the bundles about one inch from where you're holding them with the >left >hand, and roll the fibers between thumb and forefinger, thus putting >as much >twist in as you readily can. Your right thumb is on top and moves away >from >your body, thus twisting the top of this bundle away from your body. >Without >releasing the twist, lift this bundle up and over the other one, and >move >the grip of your left hand about half-an-inch further along the >bundle, so >that you are now "trapping" most of the twisted part against the other >bundle. Now grab the other bundle, bring it around to the top, and >repeat >the exact same thing. After you've done this for a couple of inches, >you >should begin to get a recognizable piece of cordage which does not >particularly want to unwind. >The secret of rope is when twisting two or more bundles in a certain >direction, they want to untwist by wrapping themselves around each >other in >the other direction. Once this has occured, the rope is stable, since >some >of the twist has balanced out leaving a net twist to hold everything >together. It's not real obvious till you do it that this is what the >above >manipulation accomplishes. There is an easy to make machine which >twists >several runs of twine with a common crank, until they countertwist >themselves into rope, but the above process is a simple but laborious >way of >making the basic cordage. Once into the rhythm you can churn out 2-3 >inches >a minute, with no special equipment at all. It is easy to make fine >strong >cordage suitable for snares, etc. >Once you get into the swing of this (which is easiest to practice with >thread or somewhat sticky fibers -- I always have trouble with hair) >you >will find that you can blend in more fibers as you get near the end of >a >bundle, to maintain the thickness indefinitely. Twisting, like >spinning, >blends the new fibers into the bundle, and once they've been >incorporated >for a few inches they don't want to pull out. There are also advanced >tricks >where the two bundles can be rolled at the same time between palm and >thigh >twisting up several inches per pass, but this is a real knack and easy >to >mess up. >This is sort of like trying to explain sign language without pictures, >so I >hope this helps. >Pat Quilter > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Rock Subject: MtMan-List: scraper/wahintke Date: 13 Nov 1999 02:55:22 -0600 page 73, vol IV of BOB.. That Heston story is wonderful...and the ball trick, will remember THAT one to use.. Rock ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Reply to AMM & New Outdoor Life Channel] Date: 13 Nov 1999 15:16:17 EST In a message dated 11/12/99 7:31:24 AM Mountain Standard Time, conchosmith@netscape.net writes: << If you ever want to get rid of the belt buckle American Sportsman gave you for being the range officer of that shoot, let me have first shot at it. >> Hey Buck..... anyone wanting to take a shot at yer belt buckle ya aught ta keep an eye on... Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Reply to AMM & New Outdoor Life Channel] Date: 13 Nov 1999 16:56:47 -0800 On Sat, 13 November 1999, SWcushing@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 11/12/99 7:31:24 AM Mountain Standard Time, > conchosmith@netscape.net writes: If you ever want to get rid of the belt buckle American Sportsman gave you for being the range officer of that shoot, let me have first shot at it. > >> > Hey Buck..... anyone wanting to take a shot at yer belt buckle ya aught ta keep an eye on... > > Steve Thanks Steve, I have always kept an eye on "Concho" & "Turtle", don't ever fully turn your back if you are unlucky enough to met them at an encampment. Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html _________________________________ Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MdntRdr1@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Taos Date: 13 Nov 1999 20:05:20 EST I'm gonna be in the Taos area next month and it's been a long time since I've done any sight seeing in Taos. Where should I go? Is there still an Old Town Taos? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Taos Date: 13 Nov 1999 18:00:29 -0700 Taos can be a really nice place to visit. But like all tourist towns, some sites are better than others. Can I recommend some? The Martinez Hacienda is a great place just outside of town (it is a 1807 fancy residence which has alot of fur trade connections), of course the Kit Carson home is o.k., but doesn't change much- they do have a good books store now, the Carson Cemetary on the north side of town has a few important fur trade people buried there (Kit, Lee, the men who died at Turley's mill, etc.), Ranchero de Taos has a very old church there and don't forget Taos Pueblo ( the indian village on north side of town, they will charge you for everything: going in, tours, if you take pictures etc) if you go to the pueblo make sure to see the old catholic church ruins there. The church was destroyed by the amereican when they came down to punish the indians for there part in the up rising. The Pueblos have their own version of the fight. I am sure alot of others can tell you of the places to eat, see art work at and vacation- if they don't write me. mike. MdntRdr1@aol.com wrote: > I'm gonna be in the Taos area next month and it's been a long time since I've > done any sight seeing in Taos. Where should I go? Is there still an Old > Town Taos? > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Reply to AMM & New Outdoor Life Channel] Date: 13 Nov 1999 22:43:58 -0500 Buck wrote: "I have always kept an eye on "Concho" & "Turtle", don't ever fully turn your back if you are unlucky enough to met them at an encampment." Gee Buck, That sounds right un-neighborly.. I haven't met either of these fine, upstanding gents face to face, but I believe I could sleep right soundly in such company..... D > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul Jones" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alamo Date: 14 Nov 1999 16:19:01 -0000 Here are several more suggestions as to your query about the Alamo. 1. Duel of Eagles, Jeff Long, William Morrow and Company. The bibliography is amazing---from unpublished manuscripts, comtemporary newspapers, government documents, books, articles, ect. Really some meat in the primary material. 2. Jose Enrique De la Pena, With Santa Anna in Texas: A Personal Narrative of the Revolution, Edited and translated by Carmen Perry, Texas A & M University Press. He fought at the Alamo. 3. The Alamo Remembered, Tejano Accounts and Perspectives , Timothy M. Matovina, University of Texas Press. Hope these may be of some value. Paul ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alamo Date: 14 Nov 1999 21:08:34 -0600 Duel of Eagles is, indeed, amazing. Terrific book. Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Sunday, November 14, 1999 10:19 AM > Here are several more suggestions as to your query about the Alamo. >=20 > 1. Duel of Eagles, Jeff Long, William Morrow and Company. The > bibliography is amazing---from unpublished manuscripts, comtemporary > newspapers, government documents, books, articles, ect. Really some = meat in > the primary material. >=20 > 2. Jose Enrique De la Pena, With Santa Anna in Texas: A Personal > Narrative of the Revolution, Edited and translated by Carmen Perry, = Texas A > & M University Press. He fought at the Alamo. >=20 > 3. The Alamo Remembered, Tejano Accounts and Perspectives , Timothy = M. > Matovina, University of Texas Press. >=20 > Hope these may be of some value. >=20 > Paul >=20 >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Henry B. Crawford" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Wahintke (mystery solved) Date: 15 Nov 1999 09:20:10 -0500 Mystery solved. Tom appears to have a first edition of BoBS vol III that has the chapter on hide tanning. That chapter was omitted from the second edition (that Kevin and I have) after it was discovered to have been largely plagarized. Our page 93 is in the chapter on trade beads. Meanwhile, there is a good description of making a Wahintke (elk antler hide scraper) in BoBS vol IV on pp. 72-74. I've made a couple and it's pretty simple. The best blade is made from a file. Make one on a bench grinder or have someone with a machine shop do you one. A fair substitute, though not as good, is the blade from a wood plane with the sharp corners ground off. Write me if you want details on how I made mine. Cheers, HBC >Book of Buckskinning, Volume III, page 93 offers advice on constructing a >wahintke. I made one last year with ease. Moscow Hide & Fur supplied the elk >antler and lawnmower blade supplied the steel. Rawhide wrap secured them >together. Very simple and very effective tool. > >Tom > **************************************** Henry B. Crawford Box 43191 Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because It's There ****** ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: The Alamo Date: 15 Nov 1999 13:22:57 -0500 (EST) Several months back there was some controversy stirred up about getting a plaque erected at the site in honor of the 9 Tejanos who fought shoulder-to-shoulder with the ~176 Texians (Groneman's book on A Genealogy of the Alamo Defenders names each one). Haven't heard how this turned out. Anybody on the list know? muchos gracias. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Wahintke (mystery solved) Date: 15 Nov 1999 18:18:48 -0500 Thanks Henry, I was really beginning to wonder if my edition was just an apparition. Interesting comment about the plagarism since the Vol IV article is by the same author. Tom "Henry B. Crawford" wrote: > Mystery solved. Tom appears to have a first edition of BoBS vol III that > has the chapter on hide tanning. That chapter was omitted from the second > edition (that Kevin and I have) after it was discovered to have been > largely plagarized. Our page 93 is in the chapter on trade beads. > > Meanwhile, there is a good description of making a Wahintke (elk antler > hide scraper) in BoBS vol IV on pp. 72-74. I've made a couple and it's > pretty simple. The best blade is made from a file. Make one on a bench > grinder or have someone with a machine shop do you one. A fair substitute, > though not as good, is the blade from a wood plane with the sharp corners > ground off. Write me if you want details on how I made mine. > > Cheers, > HBC ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Dearing Subject: MtMan-List: Re: cordage Date: 15 Nov 1999 20:00:17 -0800 > > > >If an campkeeper should be able to build a hair rope then I believe I = > >should be able to do it too. I have not been able to find instructions = > >anywhere else. Can anyone help me? > > >Among other questions I wonder should it be twisted or braided and how = > >do you group the hairs together without leaving weak spots? > > Try this URL for information on making cordage, weaving, etc.; > http://www.nativetech.org/cordage/index.html Be sure to access the links at the bottom of the page. J.D. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BarneyPFife@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: cordage Date: 15 Nov 1999 21:06:29 EST The book "Naked Into The Wilderness, Primitive Wilderness Living & Survival Skills" by John and Geri McPherson has a very well laid out and illustrated chapter on cordage, and I believe they have also put out a pamphlet on just that one chapter. It is published by Prairie Wolf P>O>Box 96, Randolph, Kansas 66554. Barn ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: MtMan-List: AMM AUCTION Date: 16 Nov 1999 22:20:32 -0500 Sorry for the intrusion all.... We have a couple new things on the Auction for your perusal... www.wesnet.com/deforge1/Auction.htm Thanks D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bear Date: 16 Nov 1999 23:55:15 EST Amen to that Big John well said I ve been down that road too. Condolences to the Colonel. ZZZZZZZZZZZZ Sleeps loudly ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Laura Glise" Subject: MtMan-List: Osborne Russell, "Journal of a Trapper" Date: 17 Nov 1999 13:28:49 -0500 For those of you that have worn out your paperback copy of Russell's Journal of a Trapper, I recently found a hardback copy. It is published by MJF Books Fine Communications Two Lincoln Square 60 West 66th Street New York, NY 10023 ISBN 1-56731-173-3 This edition is published by arrangement with the University of Nebraska Press A nice gift for the hard-to-buy-for mountaineer on your Christmas list. Laura Glise Wind1838@aol.com Access your e-mail anywhere, at any time. Get your FREE BellSouth Web Mail account today! http://webmail.bellsouth.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Henry B. Crawford" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Wahintke (mystery solved) Date: 17 Nov 1999 12:37:26 -0500 >Thanks Henry, I was really beginning to wonder if my edition was just an >apparition. Interesting comment about the plagarism since the Vol IV >article is by >the same author. > >Tom I didn't know they were written by the same person, having never seen the original vol. III article (mine is the revised ed.). The plagarism story came from someone at Rebel Publishing. I took it at face value, assuming it was true. I hope my passing that along didn't offend anyone. Cheers, HBC **************************************** Henry B. Crawford Box 43191 Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because It's There ****** ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: canvas and tipi's Date: 17 Nov 1999 21:00:59 EST Ho the list, In 1540-42, Coronado reports of Indian "tents" as being "poles fastened at the top and covered with buffalo hides".... so one can assume the tipi has been around for quite some time. Chris brought canvas, among other things, to the mainland way back in 1492...so that material has been available. With the destruction of the buffalo, canvas became the material of choice.... My question is when is the earliest known report of tipi's being made of canvas? It would seem that given the near 300+ years the material was available, a canvas tipi might have around since the 1700s..... YMOS, Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JSeminerio@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas and tipi's Date: 17 Nov 1999 21:55:07 EST I would almost swear that in the Mooney Ethnograph, I have forgotten the real name of it. Mooney mentions tipis made from various sacks, this was the 1880 or there about. They used to let you read the actual government printing in the NYPL main reading room long, long, ago. Hope that helps John Seminerio ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas and tipi's Date: 17 Nov 1999 21:13:27 -0600 Washtahay- At 09:00 PM 11/17/99 EST, you wrote: >My question is when is the earliest known report of tipi's being made of >canvas? It would seem that given the near 300+ years the material was >available, a canvas tipi might have around since the 1700s..... Think it through. The only real advantage canvas offers is the lighter weight (and lack of needing to be tanned, I guess). Canvas would have been more expensive that buff hide for most of that period. Something-hides, probably-would have had to be traded for that canvas. New techniques would have to be learned to sew it together. And then, it wouldn't last as long as hide; it wouldn't be as warm in winter; it wouldn't be what the tribe had used for as long as most folks could remember (though the Cheyenne and Sioux were relative latecomers to the plains-not becoming "buffalo Indians" until late 1700s); worn out canvas can't be used like last year's lodge cover could be. From the stories I heard as a child, when the tribes went to canvas many felt embarrassed-as if it were a sign they couldn't hunt enough to provide for their families, and the women couldn't tan the hides for a new lodge. For whites, tipis weren't used as often as some might think-earliest mention I can recall was the Fremont expedition (check me on this, am running on old memories). As I recall the story, Carson wanted to take a lodge as the most practical shelter (so apparently he had previous exposure, but my thought is that was from time with various tribes) but he had to hire a native woman to teach him how to set it up! The records I have seen of the various trapping brigades don't mention lodges, tents sometimes but not tipis. Basically, to have a practical period shelter, we make a compromise and use cotton canvas (rather than linen) and use white-man style tents. If a guy was living with a tribe he might be in a tipi-but it would be hide, and it probably wouldn't be his. Groups not with a tribe would probably be in a half-faced shelter. Realistically, the man on his own was probably dead too soon for it to be a factor. LongWalker c. du B. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas and tipi's Date: 17 Nov 1999 21:00:17 +0000 SWcushing@aol.com wrote: Chris brought canvas, among other things, to > the mainland way back in 1492...so that material has been available. Steve, I submit that your line of reason is somewhat flawed. Consider that it was the Plains Indians that used the teepee not the indians of Mexico or the eastern seaboard. It was really some time after Columbus before much in the way of European contact was made with these inland peoples. The destruction of the buffalo did not happen until after the War of Southern Obstinence and up until that time many contemporary writers recorded the construction of the Plains Indian Tee Pee as being with hides of some type, usually buffalo. With the > destruction of the buffalo, canvas became the material of choice.... As has been pointed out, the destruction of the buffalo didn't really come about until late in the 19th Century and until those late Indian wars the Plains Indian were a very independent people not at all beholding to the white man for their basic needs. Not to say that much in the way of European goods weren't traded to these peoples, of course trade was going on. And not to say that there never was a lodge made of canvas early in the 1800's, there may have been. But to say that canvas or linen lodges were made because canvas sails came to the Americas with Christopher Columbus is a stretch. We use canvas for lodges today, not because it is authentic but because it is an expedient. Hide lodges are expensive and heavy and thus hard to come by. IMHO, I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas and tipi's Date: 18 Nov 1999 00:12:08 -0600 At 09:00 PM 11/17/99 +0000, Capt. wrote: >The destruction of the buffalo did not happen until after the War of >Southern Obstinence Surely you are referring to the "War of Northern Aggression." John... P.S. The rest of the information is correct. Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Htorr@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas and tipi's Date: 18 Nov 1999 01:49:13 EST I have heard it called "The War to Preserve the Union." In a message dated 11/17/1999 10:16:49 PM Pacific Standard Time, kramer@kramerize.com writes: At 09:00 PM 11/17/99 +0000, Capt. wrote: >The destruction of the buffalo did not happen until after the War of >Southern Obstinence Surely you are referring to the "War of Northern Aggression." John... P.S. The rest of the information is correct. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas and tipi's Date: 18 Nov 1999 11:39:28 EST In a message dated 11/17/99 9:01:25 PM, lahtirog@gte.net writes: <> Haaaaa... I guess I didn't phrase that very well. The point I was trying to make was that canvas has been around quite some time as well as the tipi. When the Plains Indians started to use canvas as a substitution for hides is what I'd like to know. In the short introduction to Laubin's "The Indian Tipi", Stanley Vestal writes ....."The tipi went out of common use on the Plains during the first decades of the present century." Mebbe my question should be when did we wipe out the Buffalo? Having a canvas lodge, I'm asked why it ain't made of hide, often..... YMOS, Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas and tipi's Date: 18 Nov 1999 09:26:37 +0000 John Kramer wrote: > > At 09:00 PM 11/17/99 +0000, Capt. wrote: > >The destruction of the buffalo did not happen until after the War of > >Southern Obstinence > > Surely you are referring to the "War of Northern Aggression." John, Figured that would wake up someone! Glad we agree on the rest. Perhaps it would be better refered to as the "War of American Foolishness"? I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John L. Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas and tipi's Date: 18 Nov 1999 10:48:18 -0500 Ho, the list: I raised a similar question about a year or so ago and asked for help--which I got in abundance, much of it off-line. In summary form, this is what I learned about both canvas/hide tipis and buffalo: Although available in the European-native trade as early as the 1600s, canvas was not normally in use by the Plains tribes (the primary cultural group that utilized tipis) until around 1870. Even then, for reasons already stated by Capt Lahti, native users preferred the hide tipis to the canvas ones by a wide margin--the primary reason given in the documents I've consulted was durability. About the only advantage of canvas for lodges was its lighter weight and there may have been some instances in which tribes (particularly the Blackfeet) that had canvas used canvas lodges for summer hunting camps when light weight was a decided plus and the lack of heat retention not a problem because of warmer temperatures. When native peoples gave up long distance wandering patterns (coinciding in time with both the movement onto reservations and the severe reduction of the natives' buffalo hunting economy) in the 1870s and 1880s, the lightweight advantage was no longer relevant and buffalo hide continued to be the material of choice for lodges, many of them now stationary throughout the year. By the last decade of the 19th century, however, many lodges made of buffalo hide started to be replaced by canvas because buffalo hide was no longer widely available. Therefore, the first instances of replacement of hide by canvas for lodges pretty well coincides with the beginnings of both the major reduction in the buffalo herd, and the reservation system in the 1870s. (The construction of the first transcontinental railroad line in the 1865-68 period interrupted north-south migration patterns of the buffalo and established northern and southern herds. Hide and tongue hunting in the 60s and 70s contributed to bison eradication and by 1880 the combined northern and southern herds numbered less than a million--down from an estimated 18-20 million in 1800). But by the late 1890s only about 500 buffalo were left in Yellowstone and Alberta (most of the latter were Woods Bison, a slightly smaller version of the Plains Bison but genetically interchangeable -- in other words, could interbreed) and the Plains tribes had no choice but to make the switch to canvas material for lodges. Hides simply were no longer a part of their resource base. With thanks to all those who provided information on this topic last year. John Dr. John L. Allen 21 Thomas Drive Storrs, CT 06268 860/487-1346 johnlallen@uconn.cted.net ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, November 18, 1999 11:39 AM > > In a message dated 11/17/99 9:01:25 PM, lahtirog@gte.net writes: > > < in the way of European contact was made with these inland peoples.>> > > Haaaaa... I guess I didn't phrase that very well. The point I was trying to > make was that canvas has been around quite some time as well as the tipi. > When the Plains Indians started to use canvas as a substitution for hides is > what I'd like to know. > > In the short introduction to Laubin's "The Indian Tipi", Stanley Vestal > writes ....."The tipi went out of common use on the Plains during the first > decades of the present century." Mebbe my question should be when did we wipe > out the Buffalo? Having a canvas lodge, I'm asked why it ain't made of hide, > often..... > > YMOS, > Steve > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Monte Holder Subject: MtMan-List:hide tipi's Date: 18 Nov 1999 11:52:29 -0600 All this talk about tipi's and canvas - hide differences reminds me of seeing a pattern for a tipi and thinking about how the native people got the hides sewed (sown?) together to make the cover. I've seen the one in the museum beneath the arch in St. Louis, I don't know who made it or where it came from, but it is amazing to think of going from buffalo on the hoof to a tipi. Not wishing to whip up any controversy, just sitting here amazed at the work that would go into a project such as that. Monte Holder ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas and tipi's Date: 18 Nov 1999 10:00:59 +0000 SWcushing@aol.com wrote: > Haaaaa... I guess I didn't phrase that very well. The point I was trying to > make was that canvas has been around quite some time as well as the tipi. Steve, I thought you phrased it quit well. The point is that just because canvas has been around for quit some time as well as the tipi has nothing to do with why we use canvas today. > When the Plains Indians started to use canvas as a substitution for hides is > what I'd like to know. Thought I did a pretty good job of answering that question. What part of "after the Civil War" didn't you understand? The buffalo was pretty much wiped out during the last part of the 1800's by commercial hunters, disease, and as a policy of the US Gov. to rid the Plains Indian of his economic base. When those peoples were finally rounded up an placed on reservations, canvas was just about the only material available. That happened at the end of the Century. I can't give a specific date. > > In the short introduction to Laubin's "The Indian Tipi", Stanley Vestal > writes ....."The tipi went out of common use on the Plains during the first > decades of the present century." At that point they were probably made mostly if not entirely out of canvas. Mebbe my question should be when did we wipe > out the Buffalo? Having a canvas lodge, I'm asked why it ain't made of hide, > often..... Thought I did a pretty good job of answering that one too. A. Late 1800's, B. Too heavy, too expensive, hides are hard to come by. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: MtMan-List: E-mail address Date: 18 Nov 1999 10:27:06 +0000 I'm asking if Bill Cunningham has an e-mail address? Would like to send him an article. Thanks, I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Instructional media Date: 18 Nov 1999 17:18:59 EST List, I was cleaning out the closet and ran across some instructional media that had been given to me. It consists of 5 filmstrips and 5 cassettes which were used in the old machines that advanced the filmstrip by audible clues on the cassette. The series is entitled "Visions from America's Past, Part One" The individual fimstrips are: The New Land Settlement Forming a New Nation Revolution Moving into the Interior Anyone who has a use for them can have them for free. I have no idea of the age level they were made for. Contact me offlist if interested. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas and tipi's Date: 18 Nov 1999 17:02:58 -0500 Ok...here is my two bits. The buffalo hide tipi under the St. Louis arch was made by Larry Belitz who wrote the small book "Brain Tanning the Sioux Way" (I think that title is right?) Also, the Natives went to Cow hides when the buffalo where not available. Several of the tipis in museums are of cows and not buffalo. The tipi, now set up at the Buffalo Bill Museum is cow hide and wonderfully put together. I think they are now changing out the Native American Exhibit so it may not still be up. Canvas was also used and it is light as we all know. Or some of us know. I have tried to pick up a buffalo hide cover for an 18' or so lodge and it is HEAVY!!!!!!!!!! Thank God for canvas and I have made over 300 lodges on my own. Now the back is gone, so is my mind. Too much canvas dust. Larry is writing a book on the Buffalo hide tipi that should be coming out this next year. Saying we all out live the Millennium bugs. Linda Holley R Lahti wrote: > SWcushing@aol.com wrote: > > > Haaaaa... I guess I didn't phrase that very well. The point I was trying to > > make was that canvas has been around quite some time as well as the tipi. > > Steve, > > I thought you phrased it quit well. The point is that just because > canvas has been around for quit some time as well as the tipi has > nothing to do with why we use canvas today. > > > When the Plains Indians started to use canvas as a substitution for hides is > > what I'd like to know. > > Thought I did a pretty good job of answering that question. What > part of "after the Civil War" didn't you understand? The buffalo was > pretty much wiped out during the last part of the 1800's by commercial > hunters, disease, and as a policy of the US Gov. to rid the Plains > Indian of his economic base. When those peoples were finally rounded up > an placed on reservations, canvas was just about the only material > available. That happened at the end of the Century. I can't give a > specific date. > > > > > In the short introduction to Laubin's "The Indian Tipi", Stanley Vestal > > writes ....."The tipi went out of common use on the Plains during the first > > decades of the present century." > > At that point they were probably made mostly if not entirely out of > canvas. > > Mebbe my question should be when did we wipe > > out the Buffalo? Having a canvas lodge, I'm asked why it ain't made of hide, > > often..... > > Thought I did a pretty good job of answering that one too. A. Late > 1800's, B. Too heavy, too expensive, hides are hard to come by. > > I remain... > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas and tipi's Date: 18 Nov 1999 19:39:42 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0079_01BF31FC.A91F8CC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Capt. How rude to speak of THE LATE UNPLEASANTNESS in such a manner. Pendleton =20 -----Original Message----- From: R Lahti To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Thursday, November 18, 1999 9:26 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas and tipi's =20 =20 John Kramer wrote: >=20 > At 09:00 PM 11/17/99 +0000, Capt. wrote: > >The destruction of the buffalo did not happen until after the War = of > >Southern Obstinence >=20 > Surely you are referring to the "War of Northern Aggression." =20 John, =20 Figured that would wake up someone! Glad we agree on the rest. = Perhaps it would be better refered to as the "War of American Foolishness"? = I remain... =20 YMOS Capt. Lahti' =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------=_NextPart_000_0079_01BF31FC.A91F8CC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Capt.
  How = rude to speak of=20 THE LATE UNPLEASANTNESS in such a manner.  <G>
Pendleton 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 R Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
To: = hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Thursday, November 18, 1999 9:26 AM
Subject: Re: = MtMan-List:=20 canvas and tipi's

John Kramer wrote:
> =
> At=20 09:00 PM 11/17/99 +0000, Capt. wrote:
> >The destruction of = the=20 buffalo did not happen until after the War of
> >Southern=20 Obstinence
>
> Surely you are referring to the = "War of=20 Northern Aggression."

John,

Figured that would = wake up=20 someone! Glad we agree on the rest. Perhaps
it would be better = refered to=20 as the "War of American Foolishness"?=20 I
remain...

YMOS
Capt.=20 Lahti'

----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xm= ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------=_NextPart_000_0079_01BF31FC.A91F8CC0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas and tipi's Date: 18 Nov 1999 20:20:29 +0000 > larry pendleton wrote: > > Capt. > How rude to speak of THE LATE UNPLEASANTNESS in such a manner. Larry, The Late Unpleasantness was RUDE. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: MtMan-List: address Date: 18 Nov 1999 20:28:50 +0000 Roger Here is Bill's address. You probably have several copies by now. Lanney Thank you Lanney, Dennis, Larry, etc. Yes I have several copies now and thanks to you all. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Subject: Re: MtMan-List:hide tipi's Date: 19 Nov 1999 06:05:07 -0800 On Thu, 18 November 1999, Monte Holder wrote: > > All this talk about tipi's and canvas - hide differences reminds me of seeing a > pattern for a tipi and thinking about how the native people got the hides sewed > (sown?) together to make the cover. I've seen the one in the museum beneath the > arch in St. Louis, I don't know who made it or where it came from, but it is > amazing to think of going from buffalo on the hoof to a tipi. > Not wishing to whip up any controversy, just sitting here amazed at the work > that would go into a project such as that. > > Monte Holder At the making of the TV Series "Centennial", the prop people setup an 18' hide tipi for the rendezvous scene, it took a crew to get this done. At first we thought it must have collected moisture making it so heavy, figuring it was brought in from Hollywood. But found it had been purchased just a short period before setup from a gentleman in southern Colorado, as dry as it is here that shot that idea. I saw a short series on the nomads that live in Sibera, this family group used hide tipi type structures, single hides that are layered (not sewn together) started at the bottom and layed up in the same manner as our tiled roof's are today. This made them easy to handle in setting up the tipi, as well as moving to the next site as they traveled from one area to another. When a hide started to show some wear, it was used on the floor, everything was used until gone. Canvas would be a great improvement for tribes moving around during the mid to late 1800's, think of the reduction in weight in setup or moving. It's amazing that the poles didn't break with a good snow laying on the hides. Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html _________________________________ Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Instructional media Date: 19 Nov 1999 06:07:42 -0800 On Thu, 18 November 1999, ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: > > List, > I was cleaning out the closet and ran across some instructional media that > had been given to me. It consists of 5 filmstrips and 5 cassettes which were > used in the old machines that advanced the filmstrip by audible clues on the > cassette. > > The series is entitled "Visions from America's Past, Part One" > The individual fimstrips are: > > The New Land > Settlement > Forming a New Nation > Revolution > Moving into the Interior > > Anyone who has a use for them can have them for free. I have no idea of the > age level they were made for. Contact me offlist if interested. > > Dave Kanger > Dave, Would they be worthwhile to transfer them to a video, if so have a friend that maybe able to do this. Let me know. Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html _________________________________ Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas and tipi's Date: 19 Nov 1999 08:43:10 -0700 The earliest known canvas tipi was at Ft Union in 1851. It was considered high status to have one, therefore only the wealthy had them. Joe Check out our web site at: www.wy-biz.com/absarokawesterndesigns/index.html Try our great Home Tanning Kit for $39.95, based on 20 years of tanning Rawhide lampshades, buffalo hides, lodgepole furniture, furs & leather Give us a call? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Subject: MtMan-List: Social Studies Project for some nice kids. Date: 19 Nov 1999 07:10:22 -0800 Received this message, and as slow as it is on the list right now, I'm passing it on, answer and pass it on. ---------------------------- We are third graders in Alpine, Texas USA. We live in the mountains of West Texas in the Big Bend of the Rio Grande River that divides the United States from Mexico. We are going to map the progress of this email message and see where it travels between today, October 25 and November 22, 1999. Please help our Social Studies project by doing two things: 1) Email us and tell where you live. 2) Forward our message to as many people as you can! Please use the address below. Our email address is tchandler@alpine.esc18.net Your new friends, Mrs. Chandler's Third Grade Alpine Elementary School Alpine, Texas USA Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html _________________________________ Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Social Studies Project for some nice kids. Date: 19 Nov 1999 10:21:00 -0500 We used to do this with a helium ballon and a piece of paper.... D Buck wrote: > Received this message, and as slow as it is on the list right now, I'm passing it on, answer and pass it on. > > ---------------------------- > Date: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 11:39 AM > Subject: Fw: Social Studies Project > > We are third graders in Alpine, Texas USA. We live in the mountains of > West Texas in the Big Bend of the Rio Grande River that divides the > United States from Mexico. > > We are going to map the progress of this email message and see where it > travels between today, October 25 and November 22, 1999. Please help our > Social Studies project by doing two things: > 1) Email us and tell where you live. > 2) Forward our message to as many people as you can! Please use the > address below. > > Our email address is tchandler@alpine.esc18.net > > Your new friends, > Mrs. Chandler's Third Grade > Alpine Elementary School > Alpine, Texas USA > > Later, > Buck Conner > _________________________________ > Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html > Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ > AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html > _________________________________ > Aux Ailments de Pays! > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html -- "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Social Studies Project for some nice kids. Date: 19 Nov 1999 08:25:14 -0800 wasn't a buffalo bladder, filled with personal body gas !!! how's my folder doing ??? --------------------- On Fri, 19 November 1999, Dennis Miles wrote: > > We used to do this with a helium ballon and a piece of paper.... > D > > > Buck wrote: > > > Received this message, and as slow as it is on the list right now, I'm passing it on, answer and pass it on. > > > > ---------------------------- > > Date: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 11:39 AM > > Subject: Fw: Social Studies Project > > > > We are third graders in Alpine, Texas USA. We live in the mountains of > > West Texas in the Big Bend of the Rio Grande River that divides the > > United States from Mexico. > > > > We are going to map the progress of this email message and see where it > > travels between today, October 25 and November 22, 1999. Please help our > > Social Studies project by doing two things: > > 1) Email us and tell where you live. > > 2) Forward our message to as many people as you can! Please use the > > address below. > > > > Our email address is tchandler@alpine.esc18.net > > > > Your new friends, > > Mrs. Chandler's Third Grade > > Alpine Elementary School > > Alpine, Texas USA Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html _________________________________ Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Social Studies Project for some nice kids. Date: 19 Nov 1999 12:01:25 -0500 Yeah...Sumpin like that.. I put it back together and you probably will have a REAL one in a couple three weeks. D Buck wrote: > wasn't a buffalo bladder, filled with personal body gas !!! > > how's my folder doing ??? > --------------------- > > On Fri, 19 November 1999, Dennis Miles wrote: > > > > > We used to do this with a helium ballon and a piece of paper.... > > D > > > > > > Buck wrote: > > > > > Received this message, and as slow as it is on the list right now, I'm passing it on, answer and pass it on. > > > > > > ---------------------------- > > > Date: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 11:39 AM > > > Subject: Fw: Social Studies Project > > > > > > We are third graders in Alpine, Texas USA. We live in the mountains of > > > West Texas in the Big Bend of the Rio Grande River that divides the > > > United States from Mexico. > > > > > > We are going to map the progress of this email message and see where it > > > travels between today, October 25 and November 22, 1999. Please help our > > > Social Studies project by doing two things: > > > 1) Email us and tell where you live. > > > 2) Forward our message to as many people as you can! Please use the > > > address below. > > > > > > Our email address is tchandler@alpine.esc18.net > > > > > > Your new friends, > > > Mrs. Chandler's Third Grade > > > Alpine Elementary School > > > Alpine, Texas USA > > Later, > Buck Conner > _________________________________ > Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html > Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ > AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html > _________________________________ > Aux Ailments de Pays! > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html -- "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronald Schrotter Subject: MtMan-List: The Alamo Date: 19 Nov 1999 09:02:16 -0800 (PST) Here is another good resource for Alamo info: Texian Iliad: A militaty History of the Texas Revolution. Written by Stephen L. Hardin, Univ.of Texas Press, Austin Tex. The bibliography itself is 20 pages long. Hardin is currently[according to the cover]teaching history at Victoria College, Victoria, Tex.And what the hell is a CIVIL war. Talk about your oxymorons! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Instructional media Date: 19 Nov 1999 12:40:49 EST > Would they be worthwhile to transfer them to a video, if so have a friend > that maybe able to do this. Let me know. Buck, I had several requests for the tapes and gave them to the first one, Victoria Pate. I have never viewed them because I didn't have the machine so I don't know their content. She might want to cooperate in transferring them to video. There were enough requests from folks who want them. Dave ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Social Studies Project for some nice kids. Date: 19 Nov 1999 12:01:25 -0500 Yeah...Sumpin like that.. I put it back together and you probably will have a REAL one in a couple three weeks. D Buck wrote: > wasn't a buffalo bladder, filled with personal body gas !!! > > how's my folder doing ??? > --------------------- > > On Fri, 19 November 1999, Dennis Miles wrote: > > > > > We used to do this with a helium ballon and a piece of paper.... > > D > > > > > > Buck wrote: > > > > > Received this message, and as slow as it is on the list right now, I'm passing it on, answer and pass it on. > > > > > > ---------------------------- > > > Date: Wednesday, November 03, 1999 11:39 AM > > > Subject: Fw: Social Studies Project > > > > > > We are third graders in Alpine, Texas USA. We live in the mountains of > > > West Texas in the Big Bend of the Rio Grande River that divides the > > > United States from Mexico. > > > > > > We are going to map the progress of this email message and see where it > > > travels between today, October 25 and November 22, 1999. Please help our > > > Social Studies project by doing two things: > > > 1) Email us and tell where you live. > > > 2) Forward our message to as many people as you can! Please use the > > > address below. > > > > > > Our email address is tchandler@alpine.esc18.net > > > > > > Your new friends, > > > Mrs. Chandler's Third Grade > > > Alpine Elementary School > > > Alpine, Texas USA > > Later, > Buck Conner > _________________________________ > Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html > Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ > AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html > _________________________________ > Aux Ailments de Pays! > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html -- "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronald Schrotter Subject: MtMan-List: The Alamo Date: 19 Nov 1999 09:02:16 -0800 (PST) Here is another good resource for Alamo info: Texian Iliad: A militaty History of the Texas Revolution. Written by Stephen L. Hardin, Univ.of Texas Press, Austin Tex. The bibliography itself is 20 pages long. Hardin is currently[according to the cover]teaching history at Victoria College, Victoria, Tex.And what the hell is a CIVIL war. Talk about your oxymorons! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BarneyPFife@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Social Studies Project for some nice kids. Date: 19 Nov 1999 13:13:28 EST just to let the list know, these classroom tracking things are e-mail gatherers, commonly known as INTERNET HOAXES. check out this site so you'll be informed before you clog up bandwidth Current Internet Hoaxes, Urban Legends, and other digital lies - Urban Legends Barn ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas and tipi's Date: 19 Nov 1999 20:22:31 -0700 I have found exactly one documented case of a Canadian fur trader using a tipi in my 1774-1821 period (aside from many cases of traders living & travelling with Natives). In the 1790's, due to the war in Europe, there was a shortage of tent canvas. As a result, the HBC's William Tomison, operating at Edmonton House, had to buy a 'tent' from a Blackfoot trading at his fur post. Your obliged and obedient Servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas and tipi's Date: 19 Nov 1999 21:47:59 -0700 Seems that I recall that usually summer buffalo cow hides were used for tipis as they were lighter. I think it also said they were thinned as well. Obviously the weight wasn't too much for the poles as there was a whole lot of them in use for quite a while. Wes Housler is making buff hide tipis now. Bet he could give us an accurate idea of weight......... Allen Hall from Fort Hall country ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MIA3WOLVES@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: tipi poles Date: 20 Nov 1999 07:23:02 EST Does anyone know what type of poles were uses. I know that with modern tipis pine is preferred due to the weight factor (light). However, I have heard others say that cedar poles were used. I find this hard to believe but that may be because of the type of cedar I am familliar with which seldom grow tall and if it does it is thick. Bet someone on this list has documentation for this question. Thanks. Red Hawk Red Hawk Quillwork ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronald Schrotter Subject: MtMan-List: tipi poles Date: 20 Nov 1999 10:32:08 -0800 (PST) I don't know about cedar poles, as all that grows around here are the thick bushy type that you apparently are familiar with, but I had always assumed that the lodgepole pine is called that is because of its use as lodge poles. They grow tall, straight, and have few branches to bother with. DOG,G.H.B. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tipi poles Date: 20 Nov 1999 16:28:20 EST Some of the old photos I have seen had every kind of pole you could think of. These pictures were taken after the freedom had been taken from them. From my understanding lodge pole pine poles were a huge trade item. TrapRJoe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Texan" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Instructional media Date: 20 Nov 1999 17:00:07 -0600 Buck, Putting the filmstrip/audio on video is a great idea. If this filmstrip is 30 to 40 years old, it might have escaped the revisionist historians who weren't as vociferous back then as they are today. I'll work on tracking down the remaining parts if Part 1 is, like you said, worthwhile. I'll be in touch after I've seen the show. Victoria -----Original Message----- >> Would they be worthwhile to transfer them to a video, if so have a friend >> that maybe able to do this. Let me know. > >Buck, >I had several requests for the tapes and gave them to the first one, Victoria >Pate. >I have never viewed them because I didn't have the machine so I don't know >their content. >She might want to cooperate in transferring them to video. There were enough >requests from folks who want them. > >Dave > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Instructional media Date: 20 Nov 1999 19:26:05 EST > Putting the filmstrip/audio on video is a great idea. > If this filmstrip is 30 to 40 years old, Victoria, Your package is already on the way. I have no idea how old they are. They were donated to a local lending library in 1981 and they gave them to us. No one has the old filmstrip player to view them. I have never seen them myself, but would be interested in the video if that ever gets off the ground. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas and tipi's Date: 20 Nov 1999 19:52:06 EST In a message dated 11/19/99 7:42:04 AM Mountain Standard Time, jbrandl@wyoming.com writes: << The earliest known canvas tipi was at Ft Union in 1851. >> Thanks Joe...that was the date I was looking for and I do appreciate all the other input.... YMOS Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dejim55@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: trade pistol Date: 20 Nov 1999 19:59:42 EST THINKING ABOUT PUTTING TOGETHER A PISTOL FROM NORTH STAR WEST WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THEM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Laura Glise" Subject: MtMan-List: Trappers Date: 20 Nov 1999 21:14:11 -0500 6:00 p.m. PST I would like help from the list with my latest project. I am writing a non-fiction book for young adults (interest level grade 4 and up) on the American fur trade. As an educator I know first-hand that most history books for young adults skip from Lewis and Clark to the Oregon Trail. Textbooks skip this important time in our nation's history and, with the exception of Bridger and maybe Beckworth, there aren't biographies on the shelves. Part of the book will include biographies on 7-10 trappers. I am interested in list member's opinions on which mountaineers should be included. Please contact me off the list with your ideas Wind1838@aol.com Thank you. Laura Glise Access your e-mail anywhere, at any time. Get your FREE BellSouth Web Mail account today! http://webmail.bellsouth.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Wall Tents Date: 20 Nov 1999 18:39:29 -0800 (PST) Hallo the camp. I'm tinkering with the idea of making my own wall tent. Any books out there that might help? Anybody tried this? Regards Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders lnewbill@uidaho.edu : http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Matt and Sarah Mitchell Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wall Tents Date: 20 Nov 1999 22:10:48 -0800 At 06:39 PM 11/20/99 -0800, you wrote: >Hallo the camp. > >I'm tinkering with the idea of making my own wall tent. Any books out >there that might help? > > Lee, Talk to Bob Guenther. I think he stitched his own tent that he has his store in. "Pockets" A.K.A. Matt Mitchell Palouse Hills Muzzleloaders Moscow, Idaho msmitchell@turbonet.com "They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist---" General John B. Sedgwick's last words, 1864 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trade pistol Date: 21 Nov 1999 10:38:38 EST the north star trade pistol was in muzzleloader a few year back all good things to say about italso a friend has one and its a fine shooter. would buy one if i had extra money laying around but my four kids eat most of that up. traphand ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trappers Date: 21 Nov 1999 11:51:22 -0800 Hi Laura, My vote goes for Joseph Walker. He was an explorer extrordinaire, a leader of men, and active in the West for a long time. I'm impressed with his long career on the frontier and his ability to succeed in nearly endeavor he undertook. You should check me on this, but I believe I read somewhere that no man was ever killed while under the leadership of Joseph Walker. Hardtack Your Second Amendment Rights protect ALL of your other Rights, Don't give up your Rights ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JSeminerio@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wall Tents Date: 21 Nov 1999 14:56:44 EST There are a couple of books of canvas craft "the Marlinspike sailor" is one that go into hand sewing canvas Good Luck ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Anne MacDonnald Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wall Tents Date: 22 Nov 1999 00:41:41 -0500 Try this website. While the owner is in the SCA, she has many very good things on this site. The links are really good as well. It does not matter what period you are doing, the method of sewing a tent/pavilion is the same. http://www.teleport.com/~tguptill/tent.html I can tell you from experience...call Panther. It will be cheaper in the long run and your spouse will thank you for it. [grins] But if you choose to ignore sage advice.... [vbg] 1. buy an industrial sewing machine. It will take the flat felled seams that you need to make. 2. Behr's waterseal is made for fabric [thompson's is not]. do not paint it on... but roll up the tent and then the fabric wick up the stuff. I used 5 gallons for a 16x16 pavilion. Later paint the seams both sides, again. 2. Check out your local awning maker. They can get you the stuff a lot cheaper than a fabric store. They may also have access to sunforger. 3. when you have finally figured out what a pain in the behind it is to sew... been there, and almost killed him... call panther order the wall tent in a 10 ounce, sunforger, fire retardent and enjoy. Anne Lee Newbill wrote: > Hallo the camp. > > I'm tinkering with the idea of making my own wall tent. Any books out > there that might help? > > Anybody tried this? > > Regards > > Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho > Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders > lnewbill@uidaho.edu : http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tipi poles Date: 22 Nov 1999 08:18:15 -0600 spruce and tamarak (or larch) could make good poles. Jim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sickler, Louis L" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Trappers Date: 22 Nov 1999 08:23:52 -0700 I have to agree with Hardtack, Joe was the first to come to mind. You don't hear or read as much about him as the more 'famous' trappers, but he did SHINE right up there with the best. I believe he was the person that tried to dissuade the Donner party from leaving Ft Bridger. Tried to convince them that they had not enough time to cross the Sierras before snowfall. We all know the rest. If anyone hasn't read "Westering Man, the Story of Joseph Reddeford Walker" by Bil Gilbert, I highly recommend it. Lou Sickler Colorado Territory P.S. I know we were supposed to send these to Laura off-list, just couldn't help myself. What a damned incorrigible bunch we are! > -----Original Message----- > From: randybublitz@juno.com [SMTP:randybublitz@juno.com] > Sent: Sunday, November 21, 1999 12:51 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trappers > > Hi Laura, My vote goes for Joseph Walker. He was an explorer > extrordinaire, a leader of men, and active in the West for a long time. > I'm impressed with his long career on the frontier and his ability to > succeed in nearly endeavor he undertook. You should check me on this, > but I believe I read somewhere that no man was ever killed while under > the leadership of Joseph Walker. Hardtack > > Your Second Amendment Rights protect ALL of your other Rights, Don't give > up your Rights > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Huss931@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trappers Date: 22 Nov 1999 11:12:00 EST Good luck on your project. I just finished writing a book on Robert Campbell-- a friend of the major mountain men and trader-trapper himself. So... here's my suggestions: Jed Smith Jim Bridger (Old Gabe) William Sublette Robert Campbell Louis Vasaquez The Bents Thomas Fitzpatrick (Iron Hand) Jim Beckwourth Joe Walker Liver-Eating Smith (Crow Killer) Hope these help. LeRoy Hafen's books are great for an overview. Dr. Stephen F. Huss (Huss931@aol.com) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trappers Date: 22 Nov 1999 21:51:42 -0700 Reply to: Re: MtMan-List: Trappers John Colter DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants randybublitz wrote: >Hi Laura, My vote goes for Joseph Walker. He was an explorer >extrordinaire, a leader of men, and active in the West for a long time. = >I'm impressed with his long career on the frontier and his ability to >succeed in nearly endeavor he undertook. You should check me on this, >but I believe I read somewhere that no man was ever killed while under >the leadership of Joseph Walker. Hardtack > >Your Second Amendment Rights protect ALL of your other Rights, Don't give >up your Rights > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > > Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with = ESMTP > (SMTPD32-5.01) id AD26FBF0136; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 12:51:02 -0600 > Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #2) > id 11pcvS-0000mR-00 > for hist_text-goout@lists.xmission.com; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 12:45:30 -0700 > Received: from [205.231.101.196] (helo=3Dm8.boston.juno.com) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) > id 11pcvP-0000lz-00 > for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 12:45:27 -0700 > Received: (from randybublitz@juno.com) > by m8.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id ERYMKGXE; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 14:45:= 14 EST > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 11:51:22 -0800 > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trappers > Message-ID: <19991121.115123.-4525.0.randybublitz@juno.com> > X-Mailer: Juno 3.0.13 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 5-6,8 > X-Juno-Att: 0 > X-Juno-RefParts: 0 > From: randybublitz@juno.com > Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > X-RCPT-TO: > X-UIDL: 3831 > Status: U > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HawkenHunter@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Humurous story Date: 24 Nov 1999 16:05:15 EST Hi all I just did this and figured that I would share it with you so you old timers can have a good laugh and all the newbies wont make the same mistake. Today I went and decided that I would try to make a flint and steel fire starting kit. I went and got me a old file and started heating it with a torch so that I could bend it into shape. Well, my first mistake was that I got it to were I wanted it and cooled it in some water. I was then going to give it a good oil bath to temper it when I dropped it on the floor. All those articles are right when they talk about tempering that file shattered just like glass. So I got another piece of steel and got it shaped like I wanted it and heated it up and then put it in the water. This time I made sure to keep a really good hold on it. Well, I went to set up my oil bath and had a quart of oil that was half full so I just cut the top off of it and proceeded to heat up the metal. All the while I was thinking how smart I was for my miniature oil bath. Well, the metal got to were it needed to be so I dropped it into the oil bath. Well, about the time that it hit the oil I had a revaluation. When you drop really really hot metal into a plastic container THEY MELT. Well, I ran to grab my drip pan but it was to late I had a shop full of smoke from the burning plastic and a floor covered in oil. Well, I hope this brings a smile to at least some of you. HawkenHunter@aol.com (Hawk) If you learn from your mistakes I should be smarter than Einstein. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Humurous story Date: 24 Nov 1999 14:21:14 -0800 (PST) On Wed, 24 Nov 1999 HawkenHunter@aol.com wrote: > those articles are right when they talk about tempering that file shattered > had a shop full of smoke from the burning plastic and a floor covered in oil. Hawk.... you must of watched me work in my shop to refine your techniques so well I don't worry so much about learning from my mistakes as living through them! Thanks for sharing! Regards Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders lnewbill@uidaho.edu : http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Humurous story Date: 24 Nov 1999 14:21:14 -0800 (PST) On Wed, 24 Nov 1999 HawkenHunter@aol.com wrote: > those articles are right when they talk about tempering that file shattered > had a shop full of smoke from the burning plastic and a floor covered in oil. Hawk.... you must of watched me work in my shop to refine your techniques so well I don't worry so much about learning from my mistakes as living through them! Thanks for sharing! Regards Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders lnewbill@uidaho.edu : http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Humurous story Date: 24 Nov 1999 17:08:45 -0600 Goes to show you that smithing is a black art, practiced by those who = have gone over to the Dark Side. All others should stay away, lest you = endanger your immortal soul.... and your sanity. Lanney ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 3:05 PM > Hi all I just did this and figured that I would share it with you so = you old=20 > timers can have a good laugh and all the newbies wont make the same = mistake. =20 > Today I went and decided that I would try to make a flint and steel = fire=20 > starting kit. I went and got me a old file and started heating it = with a=20 > torch so that I could bend it into shape. Well, my first mistake was = that I=20 > got it to were I wanted it and cooled it in some water. I was then = going to=20 > give it a good oil bath to temper it when I dropped it on the floor. = All=20 > those articles are right when they talk about tempering that file = shattered=20 > just like glass. So I got another piece of steel and got it shaped = like I=20 > wanted it and heated it up and then put it in the water. This time I = made=20 > sure to keep a really good hold on it. Well, I went to set up my oil = bath=20 > and had a quart of oil that was half full so I just cut the top off of = it and=20 > proceeded to heat up the metal. All the while I was thinking how = smart I was=20 > for my miniature oil bath. Well, the metal got to were it needed to = be so I=20 > dropped it into the oil bath. Well, about the time that it hit the = oil I had=20 > a revaluation. When you drop really really hot metal into a plastic=20 > container THEY MELT. Well, I ran to grab my drip pan but it was to = late I=20 > had a shop full of smoke from the burning plastic and a floor covered = in oil.=20 > Well, I hope this brings a smile to at least some of you. >=20 > HawkenHunter@aol.com (Hawk) >=20 > If you learn from your mistakes I should be smarter than Einstein. >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul Jones" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Humurous story Date: 24 Nov 1999 18:46:28 -0000 Lanney, As you well appreciate, that is the reason we spend so much time in prayer for our good friend Dennis. He may be lost, but what the heck, he makes good plunder. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Humurous story Date: 24 Nov 1999 21:39:34 -0500 Ratcliff wrote: > Goes to show you that smithing is a black art, practiced by those who have gone over to the Dark Side. All others should stay away, lest you endanger your immortal soul.... and your sanity. > Lanney >>>Careful, or ye'll get the "EYE" Lad.... D > > > ---- "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Humurous story Date: 24 Nov 1999 21:43:27 -0500 Why doon you guys slide on over to this side.. The view is fantaastic and the company ain't bad... OOps, I forgot what you do for a livin Pablo.. You know well of what I speak..hehehehe D Paul Jones wrote: > Lanney, As you well appreciate, that is the reason we spend so much time in > prayer for our good friend Dennis. He may be lost, but what the heck, he > makes good plunder. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html -- "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Humurous story Date: 24 Nov 1999 21:03:16 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF36BF.53DFE9E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yer right Dennis the veiw is great and the company is excellent. Ya = know next time them boys want something built from our forges maybe we = ought to remember. OR Maybe NOT ! =20 LP=20 -----Original Message----- From: Dennis Miles To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 6:44 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Humurous story =20 =20 Why doon you guys slide on over to this side.. The view is = fantaastic and the company ain't bad... OOps, I forgot what you do for a livin = Pablo.. You know well of what I speak..hehehehe D =20 Paul Jones wrote: =20 > Lanney, As you well appreciate, that is the reason we spend so = much time in > prayer for our good friend Dennis. He may be lost, but what the = heck, he > makes good plunder. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html =20 -- =20 "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 =20 =20 =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF36BF.53DFE9E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yer right Dennis the veiw is great = and the=20 company is excellent.  Ya know next time them boys want something = built=20 from our forges maybe we ought to remember.    OR Maybe = NOT=20 ! 
LP 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Dennis Miles <deforge1@wesnet.com>
To:= =20 hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Wednesday, November 24, 1999 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: = MtMan-List:=20 Humurous story

Why doon you guys slide on over = to this=20 side.. The view is fantaastic and the
company ain't = bad...<G> OOps,=20 I forgot what you do for a livin Pablo.. You know
well of what I=20 speak..hehehehe
D

Paul Jones wrote:

> Lanney, As = you=20 well appreciate, that is the reason we spend so much time in
> = prayer=20 for our good friend Dennis.  He may be lost, but what the heck, = he
> makes good plunder.
>
>=20 ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xm= ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

--

"Abair=20 ach beagan is abair gu math=20 e"
        DOUBLE EDGE=20 FORGE
Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1



----------------------
hist_text=20 list info: http://www.xm= ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF36BF.53DFE9E0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: MtMan-List: Happy Thanksgiving Date: 24 Nov 1999 00:26:22 -0500 From my home to yours..... Have a safe and Happy Thanksgiving... And to all of our service men (and women) wherever you are... Thank you... Ad and Vicki Miller HMC(FMF)/USN-Ret ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Subject: MtMan-List: Thanksgiving with Lewis & Clark Date: 25 Nov 1999 06:53:45 -0800 Thanksgiving Remember that this was not a Holiday as we know it now, that didn’t happen until the next century and then 50 years before becoming a National Holiday. On November 24 the captains called everyone together. They had come 4,162 miles since leaving the Mississippi, Clark estimated. But now a decision was needed: where to spend the winter. Lewis and Clark explained the options. Staying near the ocean meant they might yet meet a ship, get provisions, and perhaps send a man or two back to Washington by sea with word of their achievement. And being near ocean water, they could also make salt, which they would need for the return trip. They could remain on the north side of the Columbia’s mouth, through the local Chinook Indians charged what Clark considered extravagant prices for everything and there did not appear to be an abundance of game. They could move to the south side (in what is now Oregon). Some Clatsops, who had crossed over there, promised plenty of elk for food and clothing. Or they could head back upriver - perhaps halfway back toward the Nez Perce - where they could count on drier weather. Once again the captains broke with protocol in reaching an important decision. As military commanders - especially as commanders now operating in territory beyond the borders of the United States - Lewis and Clark could simply have imposed their own choice. Instead, the Corps of Discovery would face this issue the same way it had already dealt with the grueling portage of the Great Falls, the deflating disappointment of Lemhi Pass, the biting cold and near starvation of the Bitterroot Mountains, and the rain-soaked gales of the lower Columbia. They would face it together, as a collection of diverse individuals who had molded themselves into a cohesive unit that was stronger than the sum of its particular parts. E pluribus unum. One by one, the name of each member of the Corps of Discovery was called out. And each one’s preference was recorded. Clark’s slave York, was allowed to vote - nearly sixty years before slaves in the rest of America would be emancipated and enfranchised. Sacagawea, the Indian woman, voted too - more than a century before either women or Indains were granted the full rights of citizenship. In the end, a majority decided to cross to the south side of the Columbia. There, together they would spend the winter with all of North America between themselves and their countrymen. Capt. Lewis Branded a tree with his name, Date, etc..... The party all Cut the first letters of their names on different trees.... I marked my name, the Day & year on an alder tree.... William Clark. By Land from the U. States in 1804 & 1805. WILLIAM CLARK ________________________________ Not as fancy a November 24th as we have come to be accustomed to, with large amounts of food, family and left overs, but to them working as a unit and making that crossing to be with the Clatsops, who had crossed over there, promised plenty of elk for food and clothing they had a wonderful day to be thankfull for. Happy Thanksgiving. Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html _________________________________ Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Anne MacDonnald Subject: MtMan-List: Re: [TheForge] heard of this one? Date: 26 Nov 1999 01:25:48 -0500 I will cross post this one to the Mtn-man list.. it might get a response.. they do a lot of historical stuff and there have been many discussions over just such things... sabella Giles wrote: > don't think so...why would you have a bimetal skillet? I've seen copper > bottom stainless steel pans, but not skillets. BTW wife says it was 1774, I > just don't listen very well. It was clearly written 'billmettal', the > author of the will appeared to be literate for the time. Maybe I need an > historian... > Dan'l > -----Original Message----- > From: James Cosgrove > To: theforge@qth.net > Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 11:23 PM > Subject: RE: [TheForge] heard of this one? > > >Maybe bi-metal? > > > >James Cosgrove > >cosmetal@att.net > >Sacramento, CA > > > >____________________________________________________________ > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: owner-theforge@qth.net [mailto:owner-theforge@qth.net]On Behalf Of > >Giles > >Sent: Thursday, November 25, 1999 7:05 PM > >To: theforge > >Subject: [TheForge] heard of this one? > > > > > >my wife was running through some old documents (like, 1884), ran into a > will > >with reference to a 'billmettal skillet'. Anyone know what billmettal > >(spelled the way they spelled it) is, or was? > >Dan'l > > > > > > > >______________________________________________________ > > > >To leave TheForge, send mailto:majordomo@qth.net > >with the BODY of the message containing: > > > >unsubscribe theforge > > > > > > > >______________________________________________________ > > > >To leave TheForge, send mailto:majordomo@qth.net > >with the BODY of the message containing: > > > >unsubscribe theforge > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > > To leave TheForge, send mailto:majordomo@qth.net > with the BODY of the message containing: > > unsubscribe theforge ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: MtMan-List: AMM AUCTION Date: 26 Nov 1999 08:35:36 -0500 Good Morning All, Pardon the shameful, promotional intrusion...Hope y'all had a great Thanksgiving.. And a reminder that the AMM Auction closes down on Dec 5th.. That means only 9 more shopping days!! And I want to thank everyone for thier support so far! Thanks Dennis ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: [TheForge] heard of this one? Billmettal Skillet Date: 26 Nov 1999 09:29:35 EST << 'billmettal' >> My wife (open hearth cooking instructor and board member of to historical societies says it probably should be "Bellmetal" websters dictonary "a bronze that consists of usu. of three to four parts of copper to one of tin and is used for making bells. She also said to remind everyone that spelling was not uniform in the 17th and 18th century (she is also a history teacher) and that education was not universal so you have to look up variations to find the real work sometimes. Your Humble Servant C.T. Oakes ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: [TheForge] heard of this one? Date: 26 Nov 1999 09:32:59 -0600 More probably a mis-spelling of bell metal a standard alloy. John... At 01:25 AM 11/26/99 -0500, you wrote: >I will cross post this one to the Mtn-man list.. it might get a response.. >they do a lot of historical stuff and there have been many discussions over just >such things... >sabella > >Giles wrote: > >> don't think so...why would you have a bimetal skillet? I've seen copper >> bottom stainless steel pans, but not skillets.=A0 BTW wife says it was 1774, I >> just don't listen very well.=A0 It was clearly written 'billmettal', the >> author of the will appeared to be literate for the time.=A0 Maybe I need= an >> historian... >> Dan'l >> -----Original Message----- >> From: James Cosgrove >> To: theforge@qth.net >> Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 11:23 PM >> Subject: RE: [TheForge] heard of this one? >> >> >Maybe bi-metal? >> > >> >James Cosgrove >> >cosmetal@att.net >> >Sacramento, CA >> > >> >____________________________________________________________ >> > >> >-----Original Message----- >> >From: owner-theforge@qth.net [mailto:owner-theforge@qth.net]On Behalf Of >> >Giles >> >Sent: Thursday, November 25, 1999 7:05 PM >> >To: theforge >> >Subject: [TheForge] heard of this one? >> > >> > >> >my wife was running through some old documents (like, 1884), ran into a >> will >> >with reference to a 'billmettal skillet'.=A0 Anyone know what billmettal >> >(spelled the way they spelled it) is, or was? >> >Dan'l >> > >> > >> > >> >______________________________________________________ >> > >> >To leave TheForge, send= mailto:majordomo@qth.net >> >with the BODY of the message containing: >> > >> >unsubscribe theforge >> > >> > >> > >> >______________________________________________________ >> > >> >To leave TheForge, send= mailto:majordomo@qth.net >> >with the BODY of the message containing: >> > >> >unsubscribe theforge >> > >> > >> >> ______________________________________________________ >> >> To leave TheForge, send= mailto:majordomo@qth.net >> with the BODY of the message containing: >> >> unsubscribe theforge > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/ ~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Smith Subject: Re: [MtMan-List: Thanksgiving with Lewis & Clark] Date: 26 Nov 1999 23:05:57 EST Buck wrote: Thanksgiving Remember that this was not a Holiday as we know it now, that didn=92t hap= pen until the next century and then 50 years before becoming a National Holid= ay. On November 24 the captains called everyone together. They had come 4,162= miles since leaving the Mississippi, Clark estimated. But now a decision = was needed: where to spend the winter. Lewis and Clark explained the options.= = Staying near the ocean meant they might yet meet a ship, get provisions, = and perhaps send a man or two back to Washington by sea with word of their achievement. And being near ocean water, they could also make salt, which= they would need for the return trip. They could remain on the north side of the Columbia=92s mouth, through th= e local Chinook Indians charged what Clark considered extravagant prices for everything and there did not appear to be an abundance of game. They could move to the south side (in what is now Oregon). Some Clatsops,= who had crossed over there, promised plenty of elk for food and clothing. Or they could head back upriver - perhaps halfway back toward the Nez Per= ce - where they could count on drier weather. Once again the captains broke with protocol in reaching an important deci= sion. As military commanders - especially as commanders now operating in territ= ory beyond the borders of the United States - Lewis and Clark could simply ha= ve imposed their own choice. Instead, the Corps of Discovery would face this issue the same way it had= already dealt with the grueling portage of the Great Falls, the deflating= disappointment of Lemhi Pass, the biting cold and near starvation of the Bitterroot Mountains, and the rain-soaked gales of the lower Columbia. Th= ey would face it together, as a collection of diverse individuals who had mo= lded themselves into a cohesive unit that was stronger than the sum of its particular parts. E pluribus unum. One by one, the name of each member of the Corps of Discovery was called = out. And each one=92s preference was recorded. Clark=92s slave York, was allowed to vote - nearly sixty years before sla= ves in the rest of America would be emancipated and enfranchised. Sacagawea, the Indian woman, voted too - more than a century before eithe= r women or Indains were granted the full rights of citizenship. In the end, a majority decided to cross to the south side of the Columbia= =2E There, together they would spend the winter with all of North America bet= ween themselves and their countrymen. Capt. Lewis Branded a tree with his name, Date, etc..... The party all Cu= t the first letters of their names on different trees.... I marked my name, the= Day & year on an alder tree.... William Clark. By Land from the U. States in= 1804 & 1805. WILLIAM CLARK ________________________________ Not as fancy a November 24th as we have come to be accustomed to, with la= rge amounts of food, family and left overs, but to them working as a unit an= d making that crossing to be with the Clatsops, who had crossed over there,= promised plenty of elk for food and clothing they had a wonderful day to = be thankfull for. Happy Thanksgiving. Later, Buck Conner ________________________________ Hello Camp, I have been visiting Mr. Conner and family for several days now, getting = ready to head for PA in the morning. Have talked to him about putting out a com= plete memo of the "Holidays with the Corps of Discovery", interesting reading. = He has his web master reworking his personal page should be ready very shortley with (60) plus articles that have been published in a number of magazines, all are excellent resource material for those doing 1750-1850.= He has an additional 25-30 ready for the site, just needs to edit them, I ca= n see why his wife just shakes her head and goes to bed, he never stops researc= hing or writing. The best part he shares it through the period magazines and h= is new web site, cool. I had better get ready for an early start, I'll be off line for at least = 2 days of driving, later. "Concho" D.L. Smith Locks Bank, PA ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm= ail.netscape.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Subject: MtMan-List: Holidays with the Corp of Discovery [as requested] Date: 27 Nov 1999 05:22:44 -0800 Here's the information that Concho and several others have requested on "Holidays with the Corp of Discovery". File this away for reference as the greatest traveling experience our Nation as seen, only walking on the moon would equal it. Concho has left the building; thank goodness, in route to PA. and should make good time - if someone doesn't talk to him on refueling. _________________________________________________________ Holidays with the Corp of Discovery Christmas At this wonerful time of the year, remember those of the past and present, loved ones and friends, God Bless them all. We've given you a little history of what was going on with the Corp of Discovery under the direction of Lewis & Clark. On Christmas Eve, the temperature climbed above zero - and almost above freezing. Fort Mandan was deemed officially complete, and the captains handed out dried apples, pepper, and extra flour for the next day's meal and celebration. Just before Christmas dawn, the captains were awakened by the men, all if them, Clark noted, "merrily disposed." December 25th, 1804. We ushed [in] the morning with a discharge of the Swivvel [gun], and one round of Small arms of all the party. Then another from the Swivvel. Then Capt. Clark presented a glass of brandy to each man of the party. We hoisted the american flag, and each man had another Glass of brandy. The men prepared one of the rooms and commenced dancing. At 10 o'c [lock] we had another Glass of brandy, at one a gun was fired as a Signal for diner. Half past two another gun was fired to assemble at the dance, and So we kept it up in a jov[ia]l manner untill eight o'c[lock] at night, all without the company of the female Seck [sex]. Joseph Whitehouse The mandans were asked not to visit the fort on Christmas because, the captains explained, it was a "great medicine" day for the expedition. But on New Year's, the men celebrated with their Indian hosts. ************* New Year’s Day January 1st, 1806. Our repast of this day, tho' better than that of Cristmass, consisted principally in the anticipation of the 1st day of January 1807, when in the bosom of our friends we hope to participate in the mirth and hilarity of the day, and when with the zest given by the recollection of the present, we shall completely, both mentally and corporally, enjoy the repast which the hand of civilization has prepared for us. Meriwether Lewis. Men were put to work making candles, boiling ocean water for salt, preserving elk meat in a smokehouse, and sewing clothes from elk hides for the return trip home. Clark labored over a new map that would replace eastern speculation with the hard facts of western geography. Lewis wrote page after page of descriptions of animals and plants unknown to science-from the giant sitka spruce tree to the evergreen huckleberry; from ring-necked ducks and whistling swans to small smelt-the candlefish-that the men roasted and ate whole. In the next life may we experience such an adventure, and may God see us fit enough to handle the chore. For a new year it seems things are well with our early travelers, fed and full of thoughts of returning home. May you and your’s have a good New Year. ************* Easter Checking the different sources listed below, no entries where made on this date, but we know that they where with at Fort Mandan waiting for the ice to clear from the rivers. Invoice of articles from Fort Mandan to the President: First box, skins of the male and female antelope, with their skeletons;.... horns and ears of the black tail, or mule deer;.... skeletons of small animals, or burrowing wolf of the prairies, the skin having been lost by accident. Second box, four buffalo robes and an ear of Mandan corn. Third box, skins of male and female antelope, with skeletons. Fourth box, specimens of earths, salts and minerals; specimens of plants;..... one tin box containing insects. In a large trunk: one buffalo robe painted by a Mandan man representing a battle which was fought eight years [ago], by the Sioux and [Arikaras] against the Mandans and [Hidatsas]. One cage, containing four living magpies. One cage, containing a living burrowing squirrel of the prairies. One cage, containing one living hen of the prairies. One large pair of elk’s horns, connected by the frontal bone. We know that by the end of March the ice was no longer a problem on the rivers and Lewis had sent a small detachment back to St. Louis with the big keelboat, loaded with materials for Jefferson: maps, lengthy reports about populations and customs of the Indian tribes in the Louisiana Territory and the prospects for trade, and box after box of specimens they had collected from the newest region of the now growing U. States. April ?. At this moment, every individual of the party are in good health and excellent sperits; zealously attached to the enterprise, and anxious to proceed; not a whisper of discontent or murmur is to be heard among them; but all in unison act with the most perfect harmoney. With such men I have every thing to hope, and but little to fear. MERIWETHER LEWIS On April 7, 1805, the Corps of Discovery headed west once more........... ************* Memorial Day By the way being Memorial Day 1999, Let's take a look at what our forefather's were up to on the Upper Missouri 1805. ________________________________________________________ Lewis's journal of May 20, 1805, decribes a "handsome river" which the captains named Sacagawea, or Bird Woman's River. May 20th. The large creek which we passed..we Call Blowing fly Creek, from the emence quantities of those insects which geather on our meat in such nombers that we are obledged to brush them off what we eate. John Ordway. May 30th. Many circumstances indicate our near approach to a country whos climate differs considerably from that in which we have been for many months. [Clark names the Judith River in honor of a young girl back in Virginia he hoped to one day be his wife] The air of the open country is asstonishingly dry as well as pure. I found by several expeeriments that a table spoon of water exposed to the air in a saucer would evaporate in 36 hours...My inkstand so frequently becoming dry put me on this experiment. I also observed the well seasoned case of my sextant shrunk considerably and the joints opened. Meriwether Lewis. May 31st. We passed some very curious cliffs and rocky peaks, in a long range. Some of them 200 feet high and not more than eigth fett thick. They seem as if built by the hand of man, and are so numerous that they appear like the ruins of an acinet city. Patrick Gass. May 31st. In maney places...we observe on either Side of the river extraodanary walls of a black Semented Stone which appear to be regularly placed one Stone on the other..[T]hose walls Commence at the waters edge & in Some places meet at right angles. William Clark. May 31st. The hills and river Cliffs which we passed today exhibit a most romantic appearance...The bluffs of the river rise to the hight of from 2 to 300 feet and in most places nearly perpendicular; they are formed of remarkable white sandstone... The water in the course of time in decending from those hills and plains on either side of the river has trickled down the soft sand clifts and woarn it into a thousand grotesque figures, which with the help of a little immagination...are made to represnt eligant ranges of lofty freestone buildings, having their parapets well stocked with statuary... Meriwether Lewis. ______________________________________ Many of the brothers have made this trip from Ft. Benton passed Judith Landing and further south on the Upper Missouri, reading what has been stated almost 200 years before brings back fond memories of this land and what we have all seen - then and now. If you have never made this trip please write it down as a "must adventure to do", if you don't canoe (best way to see it) there are float trips available. Be sure to ask the US Forest Service for use of their "Guide Book" while making the trip, it really adds to the river with history and pictures, like Bodimer's, etc. painted in the early 1800's, and the landscape hasn't changed that much. Believe me you'll remember this water venture for years, period or not take a camera and a note pad - you'll make good use of both. ************* Independence Day Fourth of July Being Independence Day 1999, Let's take a look at what our forefather's were up to on the Upper Missouri 1805. With the portage behind them, the Corps of Discovery celebrated their second Fourth of July of the journey with a meal of beans, suet dumplings, and heaping portions of buffalo meat, a "very comfortable dinner," Lewis wrote. We had no just cause to covet the sumptuous feasts of our countrymen on this day......... . We have conceived our party sufficiently small and therefore have concluded not to dispatch a canoe with a part of the men to St. Louis as we had intended early in the spring. We fear also that such a measure might possibly discourage those who would be in such case remain, and might possibly hazzard the fate of the expedition................ MERIWETHER LEWIS July 4th. A beautiful, clear, pleasant warm morning....It being the 4th of Independence, we drank the last of our Spirits.... The fiddle [was] put in order, and the party amused themselves dancing all the evening until about 10 oClock in a jovi[a]l manner. JOHN ORDWAY Their supply of whiskey was running low, but the captains let the men finish it off as "they continued their mirth with songs and festive jokes and were extremely merry until late at night". They were was behind schedule. And off in the distance, they could now see the mountains that awaited them. The mountains to the N.W. and West of us are still entirely covered [with snow], are white and glitter with the reflection of the sun. I do not believe that the clouds that pervale at this season of the year reach the summits of those lofty mountains; and if they do the probability is that they deposit snow only, for there has been no p[er]ceptable diminution of the snow which they contain since we first saw them. I have thought it probable that these mountains migth have derived their appellation of SHINEING MOUNTAINS from their glittering appearance when the sun shines in certain directions on the snow which covers them. WILLIAM CLARK I wonder how many of the brothers of the AMM camped in the Yellowstone area this year have seen these SHINEING MOUNTAINS as did William Clark, Meriwether Lewis and their group did a few years before ! ************* At this time of the year, remember those of the past and present, loved ones and friends, God Bless them all. We've given you a little history of what was going on with the Corp of Discovery under the direction of Lewis & Clark. Thanksgiving Remember that this was not a Holiday as we know it now, that didn’t happen until the next century and then 50 years before becoming a National Holiday. On November 24 the captains called everyone together. They had come 4,162 miles since leaving the Mississippi, Clark estimated. But now a decision was needed: where to spend the winter. Lewis and Clark explained the options. Staying near the ocean meant they might yet meet a ship, get provisions, and perhaps send a man or two back to Washington by sea with word of their achievement. And being near ocean water, they could also make salt, which they would need for the return trip. They could remain on the north side of the Columbia’s mouth, through the local Chinook I ndians charged what Clark considered extravagant prices for everything and there did not appear to be an abundance of game. They could move to the south side (in what is now Oregon). Some Clatsops, who had crossed over there, promised plenty of elk for food and clothing. Or they could head back upriver - perhaps halfway back toward the Nez Perce - where they could count on drier weather. Once again the captains broke with protocol in reaching an important decision. As military commanders - especially as commanders now operating in territory beyond the borders of the United States - Lewis and Clark could simply have imposed their own choice. Instead, the Corps of Discovery would face this issue the same way it had already dealt with the grueling portage of the Great Falls, the deflating disappointment of Lemhi Pass, the biting cold and near starvation of the Bitterroot Mountains, and the rain-soaked gales of the lower Columbia. They would face it together, as a collection of diverse individuals who had molded themselves into a cohesive unit that was stronger than the sum of its particular parts. E pluribus unum. One by one, the name of each member of the Corps of Discovery was called out. And each one’s preference was recorded. Clark’s slave York, was allowed to vote - nearly sixty years before slaves in the rest of America would be emancipated and enfranchised. Sacagawea, the Indian woman, voted too - more than a century before either women or Indians were granted the full rights of citizenship. In the end, a majority decided to cross to the south side of the Columbia. There, together they would spend the winter with all of North America between themselves and their countrymen. Capt. Lewis Branded a tree with his name, Date, etc..... The party all Cut the first letters of their names on different trees.... I marked my name, the Day & year on an alder tree.... William Clark. By Land from the U. States in 1804 & 1805. WILLIAM CLARK Not as fancy a November 24th as we have come to be accustomed to, with large amounts of food, family and left overs, but to them working as a unit and making that crossing to be with the Clatsops, who had crossed over there, promised plenty of elk for food and clothing they had a wonderful day to be thankfull for. "LEWIS & CLARK / The Journey of the Corps of Discovery" is the main source where this information was gotten from, Dayton Duncan & Ken Burns have done a wonderful piece of work on these adventures of Lewis & Clark and the Corps of Discovery members. A must have book for anyone interested in the travels of this group and the mapping of America. Buck Conner Aux Ailments de Pays! GREAT RESOURCES: Original Journals of the Lewis and Clark Expedition 1804 - 1806., Reuben Gold Thwaites, Bernard De Voto, Arno Press, Inc. Journals of the Lewis and Clark, Bernard De Voto, Houghton Mifflin Company, Boston. LEWIS & CLARK / The Journey of the Corps of Discovery, Dayton Duncan & Ken Burns. Alfred A. Knopf, Publisher, New York. Lewis & Clark: Pioneering Naturalists, Paul Russell Cutright, University of Nebraska Press, Lincoln and London, Bison Books. Only One Man Died - The Medical Aspects of the Lewis and Clark Expedition, Eldon G. Chuinard, M.D., Ye Galleon Press, Fairfield, Washington. Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html _________________________________ Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen H. Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas and tipi's Date: 26 Nov 1999 20:47:44 -0700 There was some discussion here on the list about the weight of a buffalo hide tipi . When I was in college I read in a book (anthropology?) by John Ewers that claimed a Plains Indian tipi weighed about 100-150 lbs. He claimed and is believable that one horse carried (or dragged if you prefer) the lodge and that weight would be a fair load for one horse. The commercially tanned buffalo that I have seen at Fox Valley Tanning more closely resembles commercially tanned elk than it does domestic cow, so a hide may not be as heavy as we would guess, but also, I believe that the talk about an 18 foot tipi is comparable to talking about a three bedroom/ two bath frontier cabin. It is possible, but not likely to be common. It would be easier to have two tipi's than one overly large one. Yours Wynn P.S. Mr. Kramer informed me that Francis Victor was not a reliable source of information because Joe Meek was smart enough to sleep with the woman when he got the chance. I can not vouch for John Ewers since I have no idea who he slept with, so take this info for what it is worth! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn Subject: MtMan-List: John C. Ewers Date: 27 Nov 1999 12:37:37 -0600 Washtahay- At 08:47 PM 11/26/99 -0700, you wrote: >snip< >P.S. Mr. Kramer informed me that Francis Victor was not a reliable source >of information because Joe Meek was smart enough to sleep with the woman >when he got the chance. I can not vouch for John Ewers since I have no idea >who he slept with, so take this info for what it is worth! Had to take a minute to reply-I had to wait to stop laughing! The notion that who one sleeps or slept with establishes one's credentials as an ethnologist struck me as amusing.... Francis Victor is generally considered to be a less-than-reliable source because of poor scholarship-her choice of paramours merely reflects a lack of objectivity. Mr. Ewers, in the space of a nearly 60 year career as an ethnologist, managed to avoid having any such rumors spread about him. I've heard people who didn't like or agree with him describe him as "a gentleman and scholar of the old school". He is considered to be one of-if not the-formost ethnologists of the century (he was "THE" expert on the culture of the Blackfoot Indians, for example). He was a pretty nice guy too, by all accounts. Still laughing LongWalker c. du B. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: canvas and tipi's Date: 27 Nov 1999 21:17:05 -0700 Having seen and handled a buffalo tipi, I'd like to make some comments on the ten hide sinew sewed one the Houslers had at Fort Laramie two or three years ago. While it was heavy (think of ten separate hides), it was not unmanageable. When the dew soaked in it and it did, the weight increased drastically. But a very easy load for a horse. While when we ride our weight is close or more than the dead weight of the cover - the way the horses of old were used and abused, I think they got used to it and probably weren't run with one being dragged except under emergency circumstances. You read of a cover being dragged on a travois and a couple kids on top, with other equipment. I tend to think the older hide tipis were smaller than alot of ones used for today. It took less hides, were easier to carry and were warmer.My 36 square foot buffalo hide weighs 18 pounds. (know by shipping weight). A medium hide. While they do tend to be bulky, one horse could carry the cover and some of the poles. But it would take another horse to finish up with the rest of the eqiupment and personal gear. Gretchen H. Ormond wrote: > There was some discussion here on the list about the weight of a buffalo > hide tipi . When I was in college I read in a book (anthropology?) by John > Ewers that claimed a Plains Indian tipi weighed about 100-150 lbs. He > claimed and is believable that one horse carried (or dragged if you prefer) > the lodge and that weight would be a fair load for one horse. > > The commercially tanned buffalo that I have seen at Fox Valley Tanning more > closely resembles commercially tanned elk than it does domestic cow, so a > hide may not be as heavy as we would guess, but also, I believe that the > talk about an 18 foot tipi is comparable to talking about a three bedroom/ > two bath frontier cabin. It is possible, but not likely to be common. It > would be easier to have two tipi's than one overly large one. > > Yours Wynn > > P.S. Mr. Kramer informed me that Francis Victor was not a reliable source > of information because Joe Meek was smart enough to sleep with the woman > when he got the chance. I can not vouch for John Ewers since I have no idea > who he slept with, so take this info for what it is worth! > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Laura Glise" Subject: MtMan-List: Reenacement/tourism vs. history Date: 28 Nov 1999 16:10:38 -0500 Sunday after Thanksgiving Is it just me? Or do others out there believe Buck Conner should get a stipend for being on this list? It was coincidental that his post regarding Lewis and Clark coincided with my trip this weekend to the site where Corps of Discovery expedition successfully reached the Pacific Ocean. As I stood there, being rained on, blown and beaten around I was reminded again of the difference between being a student of history and a part of history. The first time this really dawned on me was three years ago when I was headed to Riverton, Wyoming to attend the Rendezvous of 1838 reenacement. I had been "teaching" history for years, researching, emoting the drama of the time, but my daughter and I were in Kansas on part of the Oregon Trail and a tornado blew into town. We were in a motel and were evacuated to the first floor, secured under mattresses, cars being blown around in the parking lot and the acoustical ceiling tiles clacking above us. It occurred to me that I had been playing dress up. As I pulled my daughter into my body I thought of how the families must have felt out there on the trail, huddling under wagons fearing for their lives. Yesterday I had that feeling again. Student of history vs. history. As I watched the storm blow in, wasn't hard to imagine frequent scene of shipwrecks washing up on the beaches. The entrance to the Columbia River became known as the graveyard of the Pacific for the hundreds of shipwrecks dashed against the rocks and scattered across the beaches of the Long Beach Peninsula. To-date more than 2,000 shipwrecks and the estimated loss of 1,500 lives have been recorded. What courage these men must have had to face the mouth of the Columbia River, which makes the Misssissippi River look like a babbling brook. Men lost their lives (and still do) in steel-hulled ships, with the assistance of lighthouses, and the Corps of Discovery paddled across? No wonder we're driven to read the text, congregate on this list with others of similar interests, and return time and time again to sit in the silver smoke . . . trying to imagine what it was really like and trying to imagine if we would have the courage to paddle across . . . pack in . . . read the sign, and make the sacrifice. Salute. Laura Glise Wind1838@aol.com Access your e-mail anywhere, at any time. Get your FREE BellSouth Web Mail account today! http://webmail.bellsouth.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Reenacement/tourism vs. history Date: 28 Nov 1999 14:00:09 -0800 On Sun, 28 November 1999, "Laura Glise" wrote: > Sunday after Thanksgiving > > Is it just me? Or do others out there believe Buck Conner should get a stipend for being on this list? > > It was coincidental that his post regarding Lewis and Clark coincided with my trip this weekend to the site where Corps of Discovery expedition successfully reached the Pacific Ocean. As I stood there, being rained on, blown and beaten around I was reminded again of the difference between being a student of history and a part of history. > > The first time this really dawned on me was three years ago when I was headed to Riverton, Wyoming to attend the Rendezvous of 1838 reenacement............. > What courage these men must have had to face the mouth of the Columbia River, which makes the Misssissippi River look like a babbling brook. Men lost their lives (and still do) in steel-hulled ships, with the assistance of lighthouses, and the Corps of Discovery paddled across? > > No wonder we're driven to read the text, congregate on this list with others of similar interests, and return time and time again to sit in the silver smoke . . . trying to imagine what it was really like and trying to imagine if we would have the courage to paddle across . . . pack in . . . read the sign, and make the sacrifice. > > Salute. > > Laura Glise Laura, At first I wasn't sure of the word "stipend", it's been along time since hearing the term: "a contribution, a regular payment or a salary". An interesting thought, but my time and enjoyment on this list it seeing others experience what you have just said. "trying to imagine what it was really like and trying to imagine if we would have the courage to paddle across . . . pack in . . . read the sign, and make the sacrifice". Thank you for the kind remark. This is what "living history" is, experiencing as close as possible the life styles, the period and the equipage used in that given period that we each research. That's what brought about my personal page, as with many others on this list and other lists. If we share our found documented information with each other look at the time we all save and how much is gained. Have had many letters, e-mails, etc. about our horse, water and foot travel that we have done in 40 plus years and I can only say that I have been blessed with good people - in traveling, camps and help with research to make these trips possible. Team work is a big factor now and it was for our forefathers, don't go off blindly into the unknown, do as much research as possible as a team, assign every member a task and make sure each does what is needed, you'll have a successful adventure doing this about 90% of the time. Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html _________________________________ Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: George Washington [Nov.1789] Date: 28 Nov 1999 19:20:08 -0500 (EST) 210 years ago. Thursday, 26th. Being the day appointed for a thanksgiving (11), I went to St. Paul's Chapel, though it was most inclement and stormy -- but few people at Church. Saturday, 28th. Exercised on horseback. Sunday, 29th. Went to St. Paul's Chapel in the forenoon. [from The Diaries of George Washington, edited by John C. Fitzpatrick, Volume 4 of 4, pp.55-56.] 11. The date of issue of this first Thanksgiving Proclamation, issued by the first President of the United States is October 3rd. The original is in the Washington Papers, Library of Congress. from Michigan Territory ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Smith Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Reenacement/tourism vs. history] Date: 29 Nov 1999 12:38:34 EST On Sun, 28 November 1999, "Laura Glise" wrote: > Sunday after Thanksgiving > = > Is it just me? Or do others out there believe Buck Conner should get a= stipend for being on this list? > No wonder we're driven to read the text, congregate on this list with o= thers of similar interests, and return time and time again to sit in the silver= smoke . . . trying to imagine what it was really like and trying to imagi= ne if we would have the courage to paddle across . . . pack in . . . read the s= ign, and make the sacrifice. > = > Salute. > = > Laura = Buck wrote: This is what "living history" is, experiencing as close as possible the l= ife styles, the period and the equipage used in that given period that we eac= h research............... Team work is a big factor now and it was for our forefathers, don't go of= f blindly into the unknown, do as much research as possible as a team........... Later, Buck = Laura, Never offer this guy a "stipend", who knows where that would go, like he = said and I have heard him many times tell groups when presenting information a= t a meeting, conv., etc. = "Thousands of dollars are spent on clothing, weapons and camp equipment b= y the living history buff, when going into his camp at night we find him eating= "junk food" missing out on the 'total experience'. This isn't true with a= ll, but to many that talk the talk, they need to work on this area to be able= to walk the walk also." Sad but true to so many, but thanks to Clark & Sons Mercantile, Goose Bay= Workshops, Blue Heron Mercantile and a few others things are changing in = the right direction. These gentlemen have spent 100's of hours in teaching an= d spreading the word on edibles. Like you have stated Laura, "return time and time again to sit in the sil= ver smoke . . . trying to imagine what it was really like and trying to imagi= ne if we would have the courage to paddle across . . . pack in . . . read the s= ign, and make the sacrifice." this is what we are trying for. Had a good drive in from Green Mountain, Colorado to cenral Pennsylvania,= 32 hours with pretty good weather. Later Concho ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm= ail.netscape.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: MtMan-List: No Discussion Date: 29 Nov 1999 21:14:24 -0800 Ok Folks, Let's get some discussion going. Do you really want to leave it up to Lanney, Dennis, and myself ? Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trap Discussion Date: 29 Nov 1999 23:01:19 -0500 Nope. Let's talk traps. I note in Carl Russell's book that Victor traps dated back only to around 1886 but they are still (I think) making traps today. My questions: 1) Are there any current commercial trap makers who date back to our time period? I think the answer is no, except perhaps for the Newhouse evolution 2) Alternately, are there any current trap builders who supply a historically correct trap in the 3-4 lb range? 3) Is the present Newhouse #4 correct except for round pan? 4) In addition to the Russell book, is there a source which critiques the design of historical traps? 5) Any trappers out there care to comment from personal experience on trap design and what to avoid? 6) Do we agree that if one were able to acquire an original trap that it would be inappropriate to use it? 7) Is there some market (and supply) of original traps or are they all now in museums? Tom larry pendleton wrote: > Ok Folks, > Let's get some discussion going. Do you really want to leave it up to > Lanney, Dennis, and myself ? > Pendleton > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trap Discussion Date: 30 Nov 1999 07:09:14 -0600 Traps are interesting in my opinion. As important an item as they were for the mountain men and the fur trade in general, very few folks know a lot about the subjects of how they were made, manufactured, and distributed during the time period. Other than Firearms Traps and Tools there is a book entitled The Steel Trap in America by Gerstel. This is the definitive book on traps. A competent blacksmith could make a reproduction of an original. The cost would likely make it prohibitive as far as using them goes. The North American Trap Collectors Association can give you info on collecting or researching traps and trapping. They are on the web. Talk to Tom Parr he is the boss. An original fur trade era hand forged beaver sized trap with a known makers name (Standish for example) in good condition is worth a $1000 or so. northwoods -----Original Message----- >Nope. > >Let's talk traps. I note in Carl Russell's book that Victor traps dated >back only to around 1886 but they are still (I think) making traps today. >My questions: > >1) Are there any current commercial trap makers who date back to our time >period? > I think the answer is no, except perhaps for the Newhouse evolution >2) Alternately, are there any current trap builders who supply a >historically correct trap in the 3-4 lb range? >3) Is the present Newhouse #4 correct except for round pan? >4) In addition to the Russell book, is there a source which critiques the >design of historical traps? >5) Any trappers out there care to comment from personal experience on trap >design and what to avoid? >6) Do we agree that if one were able to acquire an original trap that it >would be inappropriate to use it? >7) Is there some market (and supply) of original traps or are they all now >in museums? > >Tom > > >larry pendleton wrote: > >> Ok Folks, >> Let's get some discussion going. Do you really want to leave it up to >> Lanney, Dennis, and myself ? >> Pendleton >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kevin Pitman" Subject: MtMan-List: text search Date: 30 Nov 1999 08:28:13 PST Greetings to the list during this time of thanksgiving and holiday celebration. I am a high school history teacher, coach, and novice mountain man/plains indian reproductionist. Can anyone give me some advice on where I might find a copy of Newman's "Ceasars of the Wilderness: Company of Adventurers." I did a research paper several years ago on the Hudson's Bay Trading Company, and the multiple volume set was available in the college's library. I would like to add the set to my personal library. Mr. Conner, the posts that I have read lead me to believe that you have your own extensive library, so maybe I should direct this post to you or your "bon ami", Captain Lahti. Thank you for the information on the list, and the desire to make sure we never forget. YMOS, Kevin Pitman ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John L. Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: text search Date: 30 Nov 1999 12:52:32 -0500 Kevin, Try www.bibliofind.com or www.BookFind.com These are two of the most comprehensive search engines for used and out-of-print books. If you can't turn up what you are looking for through either of these, it probably isn't available. John Dr. John L. Allen 21 Thomas Drive Storrs, CT 06268 860/487-1346 johnlallen@uconn.cted.net ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 11:28 AM > Greetings to the list during this time of thanksgiving and holiday > celebration. I am a high school history teacher, coach, and novice mountain > man/plains indian reproductionist. Can anyone give me some advice on where I > might find a copy of Newman's "Ceasars of the Wilderness: Company of > Adventurers." I did a research paper several years ago on the Hudson's Bay > Trading Company, and the multiple volume set was available in the college's > library. I would like to add the set to my personal library. Mr. Conner, the > posts that I have read lead me to believe that you have your own extensive > library, so maybe I should direct this post to you or your "bon ami", > Captain Lahti. > > Thank you for the information on the list, and the desire to make sure we > never forget. > > YMOS, > > Kevin Pitman > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kevin Pitman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: text search Date: 30 Nov 1999 11:09:56 PST Thank you. I will go try those next. Kevin >From: "John L. Allen" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: text search >Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:52:32 -0500 > >Kevin, > >Try www.bibliofind.com or www.BookFind.com > >These are two of the most comprehensive search engines for used and >out-of-print books. If you can't turn up what you are looking for through >either ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trap Discussion Date: 30 Nov 1999 12:20:55 -0700 At 11:01 PM 11/29/1999 -0500, you wrote: >Let's talk traps. >2) Alternately, are there any current trap builders who supply a >historically correct trap in the 3-4 lb range? Rod Douglas in Kalispell, MT makes some very accurate traps in this range, and up to 5 pounds >3) Is the present Newhouse #4 correct except for round pan? From what little I've seen the #4 1/2 is more accurate. I have an old #4 newhouse, and it's a little small. >5) Any trappers out there care to comment from personal experience on trap >design and what to avoid? I've been using Bridger #5's and having good luck. They are just slightly smaller than a 4 1/2 Newhouse. I've used Victor #4's, but I think the jaw spread is too small and they're definately too light for traditional/primitive sets. Would probably work ok with a drowning wire, but that's not how it was done. >6) Do we agree that if one were able to acquire an original trap that it >would be inappropriate to use it? Absolutely. First of all it's a relic, Second, there's a chance you'll lose it, Third, somebody could steal an old one. >7) Is there some market (and supply) of original traps or are they all now >in museums? > There's Rod Douglas in MT. Arrowhead Forge (I think) makes traps. There's also a feller in Salt Lake City area that's making some good one that are period. Allen Hall in Fort Hall country >Tom > > >larry pendleton wrote: > >> Ok Folks, >> Let's get some discussion going. Do you really want to leave it up to >> Lanney, Dennis, and myself ? >> Pendleton >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trap Discussion Date: 30 Nov 1999 11:29:52 -0800 > >Let's talk traps. I note in Carl Russell's book that Victor traps dated > >back only to around 1886 but they are still (I think) making traps today. > >My questions: > >2) Alternately, are there any current trap builders who supply a historically correct trap in the 3-4 lb range? "Arrow Head Forge" has a good looking period trap available. Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html _________________________________ Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Subject: Re: MtMan-List: text search Date: 30 Nov 1999 11:36:05 -0800 On Tue, 30 November 1999, "John L. Allen" wrote: > > Kevin, > > Try www.bibliofind.com or www.BookFind.com > > These are two of the most comprehensive search engines for used and > out-of-print books. If you can't turn up what you are looking for through > either of these, it probably isn't available. > > John > > Dr. John L. Allen > 21 Thomas Drive > Storrs, CT 06268 > 860/487-1346 > johnlallen@uconn.cted.net > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kevin Pitman > > I might find a copy of Newman's "Ceasars of the Wilderness: Company of > > Adventurers." I did a research paper several years ago on the Hudson's Bay > > Trading Company, and the multiple volume set was available in the > college's > > library. I would like to add the set to my personal library. Mr. Conner, > the > > posts that I have read lead me to believe that you have your own extensive > > library, so maybe I should direct this post to you or your "bon ami", > > Captain Lahti. > > > > Thank you for the information on the list, and the desire to make sure we never forget. > > > > YMOS, > > Kevin Pitman > > > > ______________________________________________________ Thanks Doc, You beat me to it, was going to suggest the same two URL's. www.bibliofind.com or www.BookFind.com Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html _________________________________ Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: MtMan-List: AMM Western 2000 Date: 30 Nov 1999 14:08:58 +0000 Brothers, Brother Tom Roberts asked me on Sunday if I could pass on the dates for the AMM Western next summer. The Booshway, Larry "Taos" Velasques has set the dates as July 1 through July 8. All other aspects of the event seem to be coming together. We are waiting final approval from the USFS but no glitches appear to be in the offing. If all goes as planned the site will be just north of Boville, Idaho which is east of Moscow, Idaho. There is a level trail of about a quarter to 1/2 mile into the site. It is a beautifull meadow area with rolling heavily timbered hills surrounding. There is a small spring creek to cross and a slightly larger one to camp on. Though small it does harbor large crawdads and a few small trout. Plenty fire wood, water, flat, and shade! Good horse graze and lots of room to roam. I'm looking forward to it! Hope you all are too. More later as it becomes available. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: MtMan-List: TRAPS ??? Date: 30 Nov 1999 12:33:35 -0800 (PST) E-Bay Under "Traps" I saw some old traps. Don't know if anyone might be interested or not. Will need to sort through to find them. Your most .... George ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: MtMan-List: A week in the wilds of Idaho Date: 30 Nov 1999 15:46:57 +0000 Dear Friends, Been up here in the Idaho woods hunting elk for a week now. Looked like I would have to leave Sunday evening since most everyone else was pulling out but a buddy from Lewiston has come up and will stay until Monday afternoon. It's been a good week. Started back on Nov. 21 and though I didn't get a shot at an elk all week, I sure saw my share of game. Plenty of whitetail deer including some BIG bucks. Plenty of elk just none going less than Mac 1 when they went by. Saw lots of rough grouse and even got one. Big mistake shooting it with my .62 flinter though. Well the legs were good anyway. I've been giving some thought to carrying my Tulle over my shoulder loaded with shot since the other day when I kicked up a half dozen grouse. We have a moose cow and calf that hang around the area and we run into her once in a while. You have to give her a wide berth since moose cows are extremely protective of their young, unlike elk and deer. It's been frosty some mornings which makes the sneaking difficult. The ground crunches under foot and the elk hear better, I think than even the deer. I suspect they can pinpoint where you are in the woods by your slightest sound. If they get pushed they just pick a route around you and you never see them. We've had several days of snow. Makes for beautiful hunting conditions but even the snow squeaks a bit when you walk in it if it isn't powder dry or wet as a sponge. Towards the end of the week it started to rain. Within a day most of the snow is gone and there is nothing left except in the shadows of the open areas and of course clumps on the trees. Hunting in the rain isn't much fun but it sure is productive. With snow in the trees coming down in "plops" from time to time it's even better. You have to protect your lock area and make sure your muzzle is pointed down. When it was snowing earlier in the week most of us just used a wool sock with most of the foot cut off and slid it up over the stock to the lock area. That seems to do a great job of keeping the prime dry in the pan. I check my prime periodically just to make sure but have never found it wet. With the rain most fellas carried their guns in a roomy wool gun scabbard. I just carried mine with the lock and butt under the skirts of my Great Coat and kept it horizontal. Seemed to work. Many of the guys emptied their guns each evening but I see no percentage in that. I cleaned it after I shot the grouse and reloaded but left it loaded from then on. The deer go brain dead in the rainy weather with snow plopping out of the trees and a steady drip of water from high up in the branches. They stay out in the open more. Late in the week on a morning hunt up along a swampy meadow valley I walked up on several deer while it was raining a constant drizzle. I had gone a couple hundred yds from the starting point when I saw the first buck. He was a nice 5 point (one side) and was meandering across the meadow about 75 yds from me just browsing for tidbits here and there. He ended up walking right up to Louie on the other side of the creek. Another couple hundred yds and a nice doe leapt across the trail about 40' in front of me. Another 100 yds and I see a log laying out in the meadow about 75 yds away and thing I don't remember ever seeing that log there before. Moving closer I find that it is really another very large white tail buck. Just dark enough to not be able to count points but his size indicates he is every bit as big as the first one. While I'm watching him doze in the rain from behind my screen of trees a small yearling comes out of the far side and wanders past him and right towards me. She turns just before entering the trees and ends up passing across the trail about 30 ft from where I am standing. She looks at me but isn't concerned and walks on. I move forward a few yds and try to figure out how to get past the buck in the meadow without spooking him and while I'm standing there the little doe walks out of the trees behind me and past me again but maybe only 30 feet from me. She looks at me again but doesn't see danger. I don't move a muscle. I finally make the buck nervous and he gets up and walks away. I move on up the trail and in another couple hundred yds come to another deer bedded down the the meadow. This one might be big enough to take (only does are legal in this particular area right now). I move closer and finally see the skinny little forks coming up by his ears. I move on a ways and find another small doe bedded down in the open. The small buck comes up to her and snorts at her to get her to leave. But no that's a big doe! I'm not in a position to take a shot. She huffs at me and bounds off into the brush only to walk back at me a couple times to repeat the process. She has seen or heard me and is trying to get me to reveal myself. She bounds off for the final time and the rain is all that remains. I've seen elk almost every day now and plenty of deer at times. One snowy day I even followed four big tom turkeys up the road back to camp. They finally spotted me about 50 yds from the truck and walked off into the timber. But the elk remain too wary and smart for me. I only see flashes of them as they crash off through the timber or as the one cow and calf in the open, walked around the corner in front of me one afternoon, only to dive off the hill too quickly for a shot. Jerry and Louie got into the elk on the other side of the swampy creek yesterday and this morning, with just Jerry and I left in camp, we are going to go back in there and see if the elk hung around. Jerry and I walk up the old logging road at Double 00 dark. We are walking as though there will be an elk just around every corner. Very slow and very quiet. We come to a game trail that cuts to the right thourh a pass in the ridge line. I go right into the dark timber and he goes on up the road to circle around to the north of the little valley we are headed for. There has been a lot of elk through here recently. Lots of tracks and fresh. It's over cast and cold and the ground is full of frost in places making it hard to walk quiet. I pick my way with care and think I am being as quiet as I ever have. Up ahead the timber thins and the ground is dropping away so I must be getting close to the head of the valley. The elk tracks I'm following move off to the right but I follow the trail to the left. I can see the valley opening up now. The wind is in my face. There's movement ahead. I see a small buck walk out of the small pines to the right. He doesn't seem to be aware I am there. I move forward with care a few more yards and loose sight of him for a bit until I come to another opening in the trees and now I can see out into the valley. There's the buck. No not a buck but a smallish elk. Do I want this animal? Well this is starting to get late in the season and I may not be able to come back next weekend. I move a bit to the left when her head is down feeding, to get to a better opening in the trees, and she still doesn't see me. I go down on one leg and use the left knee for a rest. She takes a step and turns almost sideways to me. It's 50 to 75 yds and I should be able to make the shot. My heart's pounding and I feel out of breath even though I haven't been working hard. The time has come. The gun comes up as the cock comes back. The site picture settles on her shoulder at the base of the neck. A squeeze of the trigger finger, a boom and obliterating white smoke. She's down in a heap. The Chambers "Mark Silver" .62 did it's job again. I stand and reload and see a second elk just beyond the one I just dropped. Where the hell is Jerry when I need him? By the time I've reloaded the other cow finally gets nervous and moves off. I walk up to my cow and it's not quit dead. I loose another ball into the back of the head and all is mercifully still. Then I take stock. This is not a smallish animal. It's got to be the biggest cow I've ever seen up close. Now the work begins. Jerry comes to the sounds of the shooting and I tell him about the other elk I saw including the three or four cows farther down the meadow that walked off as I came into the open. He goes hunting some more while I start making meat. As I'm busy down on my knees working up to my armpits in fat cow I glance up to see another cow come out of the timber down the meadow a couple hundred yds. She isn't scared cause I'm so low to the ground. I watch her for a while and then go back to my work. I thank The Great Spirit above again for the life this life will bring to me and my family. It's noon before we get the meat out to the road. Time to break camp and head down the Clearwater to the Snake and on to the Forks of the Columbia, Snake and Tapteal. It is good to be heading home. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: MtMan-List: Issac Rose?? Date: 30 Nov 1999 17:12:27 PST I'm thinking of purchasing a long since out of print book entitled "Four years in the Rocky Mountains, or the Adventures of Issac P. Rose." I was hoping someone on the list could provide me with a "book report," for lack of a better word. Cliff Tiffie Rt. 1 Box 82C Caddo, OK 74729 580-924-4187 --------------------- Aux Ailments de Pays! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tetontodd@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A week in the wilds of Idaho Date: 30 Nov 1999 21:18:44 -0700 Capt, Mighty fine tale. Thanks for sharing and taking us along. I can almost picture you hunkered down in your shelter while it rains, and up to your elbows in elk. What a memory. Todd Glover ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BoborJamie@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Richard (Beaver Dick) Leigh Trapper/Guide Date: 30 Nov 1999 23:31:27 EST --part1_0.841b028e.2575fe9f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry I forget the subject line the first time. (I'm new) --part1_0.841b028e.2575fe9f_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: BoborJamie@aol.com Full-name: BoborJamie Message-ID: <0.f131cd6c.2575c6ce@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Does anyone have any info on a trapper/guide named Richard "Beaver Dick" Leigh. He has a lake named after him near Yellowstone and he married a Shoshone Indian woman named Jenny, who also has a lake named for her. My grandmother always said that this couple was her grandparents or great-grandparents, but all information I can find says Jenny and their five children all died of pneumonia. He was married at Fort Hall, Idaho, Thanks Jamie --part1_0.841b028e.2575fe9f_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Trees Date: 30 Nov 1999 23:50:27 -0500 (EST) Any half-brothers in the camp know if those trees enscribed by the Corps of Discovery are still there? Would be a mighty powerful period rush to be there on Nov.24, 2005. Maybe the spirits of Clark and others could get permission from God The Great Spirit Father to briefly visit from the Eternal Blue Sky Land. Maybe 24-48 hours without food and water by all 3-4 weeks before would cause this to happen? (at same time asking Great Spirit Father in the name of His Only Son to hear our loud heart cries to Him). Big Medicine? from Michigan Territory ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A week in the wilds of Idaho Date: 30 Nov 1999 21:14:39 +0000 tetontodd@juno.com wrote: > > Capt, > > Mighty fine tale. What a memory. Teton, Thats what we will have in all too few years. Memories. May yours be as good. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html