From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Branded Trees from Lewis and Clark Expedition Date: 01 Dec 1999 00:53:31 -0800 (PST) According to the Fort Clatsop Archeological data, reference the branding and marking of trees..... "Examinations of trees in this vicinity in later years revealed no trace of the carvings." Regards Lee Newbill of Viola, Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders lnewbill@uidaho.edu : http://www.geocities.com/~lnewbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: text search Date: 01 Dec 1999 10:01:44 +0000 Kevin Pitman wrote: Can anyone give me some advice on where I > might find a copy of Newman's "Ceasars of the Wilderness: Company of > Adventurers." Kevin, You might try this gentelman. He is "the buckskinner's source" out west for books. Jim Hayden 88360 Charly Lane Springfield, OR. 97478 541-746-1819 He will give it his best and may have it in stock. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Richard (Beaver Dick) Leigh Trapper/Guide Date: 01 Dec 1999 12:07:18 -0700 At 11:31 PM 11/30/1999 EST, you wrote: > >Does anyone have any info on a trapper/guide named Richard "Beaver Dick" >Leigh. >He has a lake named after him near Yellowstone and he married a Shoshone >Indian woman named Jenny, who also has a lake named for her. My grandmother >always said that this couple was her grandparents or great-grandparents, but >all information I can find says Jenny and their five children all died of >pneumonia. He was married at Fort Hall, Idaho, Thanks Jamie > Beaver Dick lived primarily in the area now known as Rexburg, Idahol. There is a park on the Henry's Fork of the Snake River west of Rexburg call Beaver Dick park. He guided the Hayden expedition in Yellowstone park, and was pretty "colorful". Leigh Lake and Jenny Lake in Jackson's Hole are named for him and his Shoshoni wife, Jenny. Contact me privately if you want for more stuff. I live near this area. Allen Hall from Fort Hall country Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Trees Date: 01 Dec 1999 11:26:17 -0800 On Tue, 30 November 1999, JON MARINETTI wrote: > > Any half-brothers in the camp know if those trees enscribed by the Corps > of Discovery are still there? Would be a mighty powerful period rush to > be there on Nov.24, 2005. Maybe the spirits of Clark and others could > get permission from God The Great Spirit Father to briefly visit from > the Eternal Blue Sky Land. Maybe 24-48 hours without food and water by > all 3-4 weeks before would cause this to happen? (at same time asking > Great Spirit Father in the name of His Only Son to hear our loud heart > cries to Him). Big Medicine? > I read in an old Nat. Geo. years ago that the 'CCC' boys cut many of the older trees around this old site, general cleanup for fire prevention back in the 30's. Possibly some of the marked trees went then. Another government project with no reference to history or future purpose. I was at the ribbon cutting for Bent's Fort in 1972 (before the new fort was built). Our Governor at the time Dick Lamb he told several of us if it hadn't been for local farmers and some town folks protecting the 10-14 inch foundation walls, this fort's foot print would have been plowed under. He also said that the local historical society had been after our elected officials to do something for over 40 years, that would be the time of the 'CCC' start up. Some friends from Germany are amazed at how we as a country distroy or sell our heritage, guess they try to keep as much as possible of theirs. Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html _________________________________ Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Farseer Subject: MtMan-List: Shoes Date: 01 Dec 1999 08:04:35 -0600 Okay, I've read and seen a lot of references to moccasins for fur trade recreation. Which type? I've made some puckered vamp mocs, like Miller describes, but I've also seen folks wearing eastern center seams, and also hard soled (rawhide it looked like) mocs. Assuming it's about 1820, and I'm in St Joseph, or Robidaux if you prefer, What are the correct type of mocs? References would be great, as well as advice. At this point, I'm working on a second pair of pucker vamps out of buffalo for summer, and a pair out of sheepskin with the wool on for winter wear. I'd love to find a couple of square feet of hair on buffalo for the winter pair, but no luck so far. Todd (who freely admits to being a greenhorn and still don't have a spiffy name) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shoes Date: 01 Dec 1999 16:00:12 +0000 Farseer wrote: > > Okay, I've read and seen a lot of references to moccasins for fur trade > recreation. Which type? Farseer, In the absence of noted scholars learned in this particular subject, I feel a degree of bravery and shall sally forth. I think you're on the right track with the puckered vamp moc's. I've made some puckered vamp mocs, like Miller > describes, but I've also seen folks wearing eastern center seams, and also > hard soled (rawhide it looked like) mocs. What you see pictured in Miller's paintings is probably more correctly what was being worn. Conversely, the styles commonly seen at rendezvous may or may not be historically correct. Assuming it's about 1820, and > I'm in St Joseph, or Robidaux if you prefer, What are the correct type of > mocs? References would be great, as well as advice. I can't give references but my opinion is that the Rocky Mt. Personage of the time wore the type of moc he either knew how to make or the type that he could get made for him by local manufacture. Considering that many of the practitioners in the mountains were French or French/Indian or even throw in a considerable number of eastern tribal members gone west there is no doubt on my part that most any eastern/Great Lakes/Canadian Shield style of moc was represented. I think most mocs were probably of the style you have made. That seems to be what is pictured by contemporary artists the most. It isn't any harder to draw or paint any other type of moc but that is what they drew and painted. That is why you see them. Simple center seams may have been made because they are easy to make but they have inherent design limits and the pucker toe/vamped moc lends it self to summer and winter designs much more readily. The side seam styles of the Columbia plateau indians were used too, but I think probably by the whites most in contact with themand then only if they were made by the local indian population. The hard sole plains indian moc may have been made tand used but I suspect it was not as commonly worn by whites as the pucker toe/vamp moc. Any of these styles are appropriate in any case and one should not feel limited to one style. At this point, I'm > working on a second pair of pucker vamps out of buffalo for summer, and a > pair out of sheepskin with the wool on for winter wear. I'd love to find > a couple of square feet of hair on buffalo for the winter pair, but no luck > so far. I have a pair of brain tanned winter mocs (pucker toe/vamps) that are lined with blanket socks and wool socks as the mountaineer was recorded as doing. They work fine on snowshoes and in cold weather. I too have thought to make a pair of some sheep pelts I have but have never gotten around to doing it. I'm not sure it is necessary and I do camp in very cold weather. Anyway I hope this has been reassuring if not completely helpful. These are my opinions and are worth what it cost you. Winter well. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John L. Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Trees Date: 01 Dec 1999 18:55:25 -0500 None of the trees inscribed by members of the Corps of Discovery are still standing, having gone the way of big timber throughout much of the West. The only remnant that marks the passage of the Corps of Discovery is William Clark's characteristic and readily identifiable scratched signature on Pompey's Pillar (Tower) just east of Billings, Montana. John Dr. John L. Allen 21 Thomas Drive Storrs, CT 06268 860/487-1346 johnlallen@uconn.cted.net ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 11:50 PM > Any half-brothers in the camp know if those trees enscribed by the Corps > of Discovery are still there? Would be a mighty powerful period rush to > be there on Nov.24, 2005. Maybe the spirits of Clark and others could > get permission from God The Great Spirit Father to briefly visit from > the Eternal Blue Sky Land. Maybe 24-48 hours without food and water by > all 3-4 weeks before would cause this to happen? (at same time asking > Great Spirit Father in the name of His Only Son to hear our loud heart > cries to Him). Big Medicine? > > ----------------------------------- > from Michigan Territory > ----------------------------------- > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shoes Date: 01 Dec 1999 19:55:43 -0500 Todd, Check Ebay. I've been watching one source who has offered parts of hair-on buffalo hide. Catch is, it's green and you'll have to tan it yourself. Tom Farseer wrote: > Okay, I've read and seen a lot of references to moccasins for fur trade > recreation. Which type? I've made some puckered vamp mocs, like Miller > describes, but I've also seen folks wearing eastern center seams, and also > hard soled (rawhide it looked like) mocs. Assuming it's about 1820, and > I'm in St Joseph, or Robidaux if you prefer, What are the correct type of > mocs? References would be great, as well as advice. At this point, I'm > working on a second pair of pucker vamps out of buffalo for summer, and a > pair out of sheepskin with the wool on for winter wear. I'd love to find > a couple of square feet of hair on buffalo for the winter pair, but no luck > so far. > > Todd > (who freely admits to being a greenhorn and still don't have a spiffy name) > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Trees Date: 01 Dec 1999 17:31:41 -0800 On Wed, 01 December 1999, "John L. Allen" wrote: > > None of the trees inscribed by members of the Corps of Discovery are still > standing, having gone the way of big timber throughout much of the West. > > The only remnant that marks the passage of the Corps of Discovery is William > Clark's characteristic and readily identifiable scratched signature on > Pompey's Pillar (Tower) just east of Billings, Montana. > > John > > Dr. John L. Allen > 21 Thomas Drive > Storrs, CT 06268 > 860/487-1346 > johnlallen@uconn.cted.net > Doc, If you ever get a chance to go to Washington MO, check with me and I'll get you a name or two that can show you "Tavern Cave", the one Lewis & Clark stayed in for a period of time. Has ORDWAY's name and several others scribed into the walls, only thing that has saved them (their names) is it's location and over the years water has deepened the cave making the name about 10 foot off the muddy floor now. Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html _________________________________ Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:PILLOW TICKING Date: 01 Dec 1999 16:25:29 -0500 hello the camp: better half just came home and said you know that striped cotton cloth that you are always looking for that is 100% cotton and is white with blue black stripes on it-that you call pillow ticking--I was at the fabric store today and they are closing and I bought you a whole bolt of it many yards---at $4.00 a yard---does that make you happy---my response was yes dear---but now i have almost 50 yds of .015-.017 pillow ticking on a big role---never washed still has the sizeing in it---any of you guys out there need some of it for what she payed for it plus shipping are welcome to it---give me some eletronic smoke offline and i will ship it to you and a yard makes a lot of patches---I usually go thru about 4 to 6 yds a year when i am going to matches during the summer---so I have several years of supply and am willing to share if any of you need some--- let me know your needs---and the price is right--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shoes Date: 01 Dec 1999 20:19:23 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01BF3C39.5B5D3220 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Capt., Appears to me you're on the right track. Like you I don't claim to be = a moccasin scholar, but I also figure they wore the type of footwear = that was readily available or the type they knew how to make. Given = that those fellers were from the East it makes sense that there were = some centerseams worn. I have also experimented with sewing a thick = sole on the bottom of some centersems. Looks pretty bad but they wear = good on hard ground and on rocks. A feller once told me, after one day = at Rendezvous everyone's mocs look pretty much the same. Lewis wrote = about their men sewing soles on the bottom of their mocs when they were = in cactus country. =20 Pendleton =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: R Lahti To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 4:09 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shoes =20 =20 Farseer wrote: >=20 > Okay, I've read and seen a lot of references to moccasins for fur = trade > recreation. Which type? =20 =20 Farseer, =20 In the absence of noted scholars learned in this particular subject, = I feel a degree of bravery and shall sally forth. I think you're on = the right track with the puckered vamp moc's. =20 I've made some puckered vamp mocs, like Miller > describes, but I've also seen folks wearing eastern center seams, = and also > hard soled (rawhide it looked like) mocs.=20 =20 What you see pictured in Miller's paintings is probably more = correctly what was being worn. Conversely, the styles commonly seen at = rendezvous may or may not be historically correct.=20 =20 Assuming it's about 1820, and > I'm in St Joseph, or Robidaux if you prefer, What are the correct = type of > mocs? References would be great, as well as advice.=20 =20 I can't give references but my opinion is that the Rocky Mt. = Personage of the time wore the type of moc he either knew how to make or the = type that he could get made for him by local manufacture. Considering = that many of the practitioners in the mountains were French or = French/Indian or even throw in a considerable number of eastern tribal members = gone west there is no doubt on my part that most any eastern/Great Lakes/Canadian Shield style of moc was represented.=20 =20 I think most mocs were probably of the style you have made. That = seems to be what is pictured by contemporary artists the most. It isn't = any harder to draw or paint any other type of moc but that is what they = drew and painted. That is why you see them. Simple center seams may have = been made because they are easy to make but they have inherent design = limits and the pucker toe/vamped moc lends it self to summer and winter = designs much more readily.=20 =20 The side seam styles of the Columbia plateau indians were used too, = but I think probably by the whites most in contact with themand then = only if they were made by the local indian population. The hard sole plains indian moc may have been made tand used but I suspect it was not as commonly worn by whites as the pucker toe/vamp moc. Any of these = styles are appropriate in any case and one should not feel limited to one style. =20 At this point, I'm > working on a second pair of pucker vamps out of buffalo for = summer, and a > pair out of sheepskin with the wool on for winter wear. I'd = love to find > a couple of square feet of hair on buffalo for the winter pair, = but no luck > so far. =20 I have a pair of brain tanned winter mocs (pucker toe/vamps) that = are lined with blanket socks and wool socks as the mountaineer was = recorded as doing. They work fine on snowshoes and in cold weather. I too = have thought to make a pair of some sheep pelts I have but have never = gotten around to doing it. I'm not sure it is necessary and I do camp in = very cold weather. Anyway I hope this has been reassuring if not = completely helpful. These are my opinions and are worth what it cost you. = Winter well. I remain.... =20 YMOS Capt. Lahti' =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01BF3C39.5B5D3220 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Capt.,
  Appears = to me you're=20 on the right track.  Like you I don't claim to be a moccasin = scholar, but I=20 also figure they wore the type of footwear that was readily available or = the=20 type they knew how to make.  Given that those fellers were from the = East it=20 makes sense that there were some centerseams worn.  I have also=20 experimented with sewing a thick sole on the bottom of some = centersems. =20 Looks pretty bad but they wear good on hard ground and on rocks.  A = feller=20 once told me, after one day at Rendezvous everyone's mocs look pretty = much the=20 same.  Lewis wrote about their men sewing soles on the bottom of = their mocs=20 when they were in cactus country.  
Pendleton 
 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 R Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
To: = hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Wednesday, December 01, 1999 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: = MtMan-List:=20 Shoes

Farseer wrote:
>
> Okay, I've = read=20 and seen a lot of references to moccasins for fur trade
>=20 recreation.  Which type? 

Farseer,

In the = absence=20 of noted scholars learned in this particular subject, I
feel a = degree of=20 bravery and shall sally forth. I think you're on the
right track = with the=20 puckered vamp moc's.

I've made some puckered vamp mocs, like=20 Miller
> describes, but I've also seen folks wearing eastern = center=20 seams, and also
> hard soled (rawhide it looked like) mocs.=20

What you see pictured in Miller's paintings is probably more = correctly
what was being worn. Conversely, the styles commonly = seen at=20 rendezvous
may or may not be historically correct.

  = Assuming it's about 1820, and
> I'm in St Joseph, or Robidaux = if you=20 prefer,  What are the correct type of
> = mocs?   =20 References would be great, as well as advice.

I can't give=20 references but my opinion is that the Rocky Mt. Personage
of the = time=20 wore the type of moc he either knew how to make or the type
that = he could=20 get made for him by local manufacture. Considering that
many of = the=20 practitioners in the mountains were French or French/Indian
or = even throw=20 in a considerable number of eastern tribal members gone
west = there is no=20 doubt on my part that most any eastern/Great
Lakes/Canadian = Shield style=20 of moc was represented.

I think most mocs were probably of = the style=20 you have made. That seems
to be what is pictured by contemporary = artists=20 the most. It isn't any
harder to draw or paint any other type of = moc but=20 that is what they drew
and painted. That is why you see them. = Simple=20 center seams may have been
made because they are easy to make but = they=20 have inherent design limits
and the pucker toe/vamped moc lends = it self=20 to summer and winter designs
much more readily.

The side = seam=20 styles of the Columbia plateau indians were used too, but
I think = probably by the whites most in contact with themand then only = if
they=20 were made by the local indian population. The hard sole = plains
indian moc=20 may have been made tand used but I suspect it was not as
commonly = worn by=20 whites as the pucker toe/vamp moc. Any of these styles
are = appropriate in=20 any case and one should not feel limited to one
style.

At = this=20 point, I'm
> working on a second pair of pucker vamps out of = buffalo=20 for summer, and a
> pair out of sheepskin with the wool on for = winter=20 wear.    I'd love to find
> a couple of square = feet of=20 hair on buffalo for the winter pair, but no luck
> so = far.

I=20 have a pair of brain tanned winter mocs (pucker toe/vamps) that = are
lined=20 with blanket socks and wool socks as the mountaineer was = recorded
as=20 doing. They work fine on snowshoes and in cold weather. I too=20 have
thought to make a pair of some sheep pelts I have but have = never=20 gotten
around to doing it. I'm not sure it is necessary and I do = camp in=20 very
cold weather. Anyway I hope this has been reassuring if not=20 completely
helpful. These are my opinions and are worth what it = cost you.=20 Winter
well. I remain....

YMOS
Capt.=20 Lahti'

----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xm= ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------=_NextPart_000_0034_01BF3C39.5B5D3220-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Julia Sirovetz Subject: MtMan-List:"Across the Seasons" Date: 01 Dec 1999 18:44:28 -0800 --============_-1268019814==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Greetings to the List, I have been given the delightful experience of being allowed to read'Across the Seasons' by Laura Rugel Glise. This book is a love story as wild and as free as the Rocky Mountains must have been in the year of 1838. Sarah Hanley, art history professor at Emory University in Atlanta, has one regret, she was cheated out of a trek into the Wind River area in Wyoming. Now, nearly 20 years and one mystical experience later, she is about to have her dream come true. Miss Glise paints a vivid and very vital portrayal of the characters in her story. Osborne Russell was outstanding in his capacity for interpreting in detail the newness of the world around him. He portrays the Shining Mountains as if they were a character in themselves, his journal attests to that. As Russell comes to life on the pages of this book, I found him to have an innocent charm and raw appeal that deems him to be irresistible. Miss Glise shows an overwhelming respect for Mr. Russell and his comrades. I believe that for Historical Re-enactors, it is not a hard task to allow one'smind to be sent back in time, is that not the fruit we find in our labor? In reading'Across the Seasons' I was immediately transfixed and swept away on a wild ride into the heart of the 1838 Rendezvous. I do not claim to know my history, however I do know a good historical fantasy when I read one. This book is a damn good read, with descriptions as articulate and smooth as butter off a warm knife. I can guarantee that it will spark lively conversation with those lucky enough to read it, also, that a wee bit of controversy will arise from it's pages. Respectfully, Julie --============_-1268019814==_ma============ Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" CourierGreetings to the List, I have been given the delightful experience of being allowed to read'Across the Seasons' by Laura Rugel Glise. This book is a love story as wild and as free as the Rocky Mountains must have been in the year of 1838. Sarah Hanley, art history professor at Emory University in Atlanta, has one regret, she was cheated out of a trek into the Wind River area in Wyoming. Now, nearly 20 years and one mystical experience later, she is about to have her dream come true. Miss Glise paints a vivid and very vital portrayal of the characters in her story. Osborne Russell was outstanding in his capacity for interpreting in detail the newness of the world around him. He portrays the Shining Mountains as if they were a character in themselves, his journal attests to that. As Russell comes to life on the pages of this book, I found him to have an innocent charm and raw appeal that deems him to be irresistible. Miss Glise shows an overwhelming respect for Mr. Russell and his comrades. I believe that for Historical Re-enactors, it is not a hard task to allow one'smind to be sent back in time, is that not the fruit we find in our labor? In reading'Across the Seasons' I was immediately transfixed and swept away on a wild ride into the heart of the 1838 Rendezvous. I do not claim to know my history, however I do know a good historical fantasy when I read one. This book is a damn good read, with descriptions as articulate and smooth as butter off a warm knife. I can guarantee that it will spark lively conversation with those lucky enough to read it, also, that a wee bit of controversy will arise from it's pages. Respectfully, Julie --============_-1268019814==_ma============-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:"Across the Seasons" Date: 01 Dec 1999 21:16:42 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01BF3C41.5D3BBC80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Folks, If you check over on the Auction Site, = www.wesnet.com/deforge1/Auction.htm, you will find that the manuscript = to Across the Seasons is still unsold. There is a healthy bid on it, = but Laura has promised to send a copy of the book (when it is published) = to who ever buys the manuscript....as a bonus. This is a generous = donation to AMM, as are all the other items offered on the auction. = Check it out. Now. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ps: Particularly check out John Kramer's great offer for his excellent = wood treatment. I bought a bottle at full price,and would do it again = (and will when I use up this bottle) and have found it to be amazing = stuff. Hell, it's probably good on biscuits!! This is the last week to = contribute to AMM and to pick up some good plunder, so click over there = and shoot a bid. =20 pps: Hats off to Dennis Miles for messing with the Auction. Call him = up and buy a knife or a striker or something. From: Julia Sirovetz=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 8:44 PM Subject: MtMan-List:"Across the Seasons" Greetings to the List, I have been given the delightful experience of being allowed to = read=11'Across the Seasons'=12 by Laura Rugel Glise.=20 This book is a love story as wild and as free as the Rocky Mountains = must have been in the year of 1838. Sarah Hanley, art history professor at Emory University in Atlanta, = has one regret, she was cheated out of a trek into the Wind River area = in Wyoming. Now, nearly 20 years and one mystical experience later, she = is about to have her dream come true. Miss Glise paints a vivid and very vital portrayal of the characters = in her story. Osborne Russell was outstanding in his capacity for = interpreting in detail the newness of the world around him. He portrays = the Shining Mountains as if they were a character in themselves, his = journal attests to that.=20 As Russell comes to life on the pages of this book, I found him to = have an innocent charm and raw appeal that deems him to be irresistible. = Miss Glise shows an overwhelming respect for Mr. Russell and his = comrades. I believe that for Historical Re-enactors, it is not a hard task to = allow one's=12mind to be sent back in time, is that not the fruit we = find in our labor?=20 In reading=11'Across the Seasons'=12 I was immediately transfixed and = swept away on a wild ride into the heart of the 1838 Rendezvous. I do = not claim to know my history, however I do know a good historical = fantasy when I read one.=20 This book is a damn good read, with descriptions as articulate and = smooth as butter off a warm knife. I can guarantee that it will spark lively conversation with those = lucky enough to read it, also, that a wee bit of controversy will arise = from it's pages. Respectfully, Julie ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01BF3C41.5D3BBC80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Folks,
If you check over on the Auction Site, www.wesnet.com/deforg= e1/Auction.htm,=20 you will find that the manuscript to Across the Seasons is still = unsold. =20 There is a healthy bid on it, but Laura has promised to send a copy of = the book=20 (when it is published) to who ever buys the manuscript....as a=20 bonus.   This is a generous donation to AMM, as are all the = other=20 items offered on the auction.  Check it out.  Now.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
ps:  Particularly check out John Kramer's  great offer = for his=20 excellent wood treatment.  I bought a bottle at full price,and = would do it=20 again (and will when I use up this bottle) and have found it to be = amazing=20 stuff.  Hell, it's probably good on biscuits!!  This is the = last week=20 to contribute to AMM and to pick up some good plunder, so click over = there and=20 shoot a bid. 
pps:  Hats off to Dennis Miles for messing with the = Auction. =20 Call him up and buy a knife or a striker or something.
From:=20 Julia=20 Sirovetz
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com =
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, = 1999 8:44=20 PM
Subject: MtMan-List:"Across the = Seasons"

Greetings to the List,

I have been given the = delightful=20 experience of being allowed to read=11'Across the Seasons'=12 by Laura = Rugel=20 Glise.

This book is a love story as wild and as free as the = Rocky=20 Mountains must have been
in the year of 1838.

Sarah Hanley, = art=20 history professor at Emory University in Atlanta, has one regret, she = was=20 cheated out of a trek into the Wind River area in Wyoming. Now, nearly = 20=20 years and one mystical experience later, she is about to have her = dream come=20 true.

Miss Glise paints a vivid and very vital portrayal of the = characters in her story. Osborne Russell was outstanding in his = capacity for=20 interpreting in detail the newness of the world around him. He = portrays the=20 Shining Mountains as if they were a character in themselves, his = journal=20 attests to that.

As Russell comes to life on the pages of this = book, I=20 found him to have an innocent charm and raw appeal that deems him to = be=20 irresistible. Miss Glise shows an overwhelming respect for Mr. Russell = and his=20 comrades.

I believe that for Historical Re-enactors, it is not = a hard=20 task to allow one's=12mind to be sent back in time, is that not the = fruit we=20 find in our labor?

In reading=11'Across the Seasons'=12 I was = immediately=20 transfixed and swept away on a wild ride into the heart of the 1838=20 Rendezvous. I do not claim to know my history, however I do know a = good=20 historical fantasy when I read one.

This book is a damn good = read,=20 with descriptions as articulate and smooth as butter off a warm=20 knife.

I can guarantee that it will spark lively conversation = with=20 those lucky enough to read it, also, that a wee bit of controversy = will arise=20 from it's = pages.

Respectfully,
Julie
------=_NextPart_000_004F_01BF3C41.5D3BBC80-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shoes Date: 01 Dec 1999 20:20:44 -0700 Todd, I usually have buffalo scraps. Like right now I just finished 5 pair of buffalo mocs. I cut up the back halves after tanning them. Enough buffalo for a pair of ankle moccs size 10 - 11 would run $25. Let me know. I add a 2 inch cuff around most of mine, unless the customer wants a higher one. Joe Check out our web site at: www.wy-biz.com/absarokawesterndesigns/index.html Try our great Home Tanning Kit for $39.95, based on 20 years of tanning Rawhide lampshades, buffalo hides, lodgepole furniture, furs & leather Give us a call? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl Subject: MtMan-List: moccs Date: 01 Dec 1999 20:26:34 -0700 Few if any rawhide soled moccs were ever worn at a rendezvous before 1850. A piece of leather would of been sewn to the bottom of side seam, center seam, pucker toe, etc. Joe Check out our web site at: www.wy-biz.com/absarokawesterndesigns/index.html Try our great Home Tanning Kit for $39.95, based on 20 years of tanning Rawhide lampshades, buffalo hides, lodgepole furniture, furs & leather Give us a call? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trap Discussion Date: 01 Dec 1999 21:43:02 -0600 I have two of the Arrow Head Forge five pound traps. They are very good = copies of the trap shown on page 102 of Firearms, Traps & Tools of the = Mountain Men. The have forged chains and cost less than $100. They use = commercial springs, but I can live with them. Rod Douglas's traps are = works of art and cost MORE that $100, but are superior in every way. = You pays your money and takes your choice. Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 1:29 PM >=20 > > >Let's talk traps. I note in Carl Russell's book that Victor traps = dated > > >back only to around 1886 but they are still (I think) making traps = today. >=20 > > >My questions: >=20 > > >2) Alternately, are there any current trap builders who supply a = historically correct trap in the 3-4 lb range? >=20 >=20 > "Arrow Head Forge" has a good looking period trap available. >=20 >=20 > Later, > Buck Conner > _________________________________ > Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html > Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ > AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html > _________________________________ > Aux Ailments de Pays! >=20 > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account = http://www.uswestmail.net >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shoes Date: 01 Dec 1999 20:29:00 -0700 Todd, My vote for the most common coverings for the average western adventurers- side seams. Why? Most (what few there are) explainations of foot wear tell of them being made of one piece of leather. This with examples of Indian made foot wear of the time show a large number of side seams in the Rocky Mountians. I will do some checking and see if I can come up with a reference or two for you. Well, this turned out easiler than I thought in "Rocky Mountain Life" Rufus Sage, pages 154 and 155. "During the succeeding internal we were variously occupied in hunting, root digging and moccasin making. The latter is a business in which every mountaineer is necessarilly a proficient, and rarely will he venture upon a long journey without the appurtenances of his profession. The process of shoe making with him is reduced to its most simple form. He merely takes two pieces (one for each foot- my comment) of buffalo (or any other suitible) skin, each being a little longer and wider than his foot, particularly towards the heel; these he folds separately, and lays then together parrallel with the turned edges; then rounding and trimming the sides, to render them foot shaped, with an awl and the sinew of buffalo or other animal, or small strips of thin deer skin ("whang") he sews the vamps from end to end- then after cutting a tongue like appendage in the upper side, midway from heel to toe and stiching together the posterior parts, his task is done." A fine rare example of a mountaineer's moc! Farseer wrote: > Okay, I've read and seen a lot of references to moccasins for fur trade > recreation. Which type? I've made some puckered vamp mocs, like Miller > describes, but I've also seen folks wearing eastern center seams, and also > hard soled (rawhide it looked like) mocs. Assuming it's about 1820, and > I'm in St Joseph, or Robidaux if you prefer, What are the correct type of > mocs? References would be great, as well as advice. At this point, I'm > working on a second pair of pucker vamps out of buffalo for summer, and a > pair out of sheepskin with the wool on for winter wear. I'd love to find > a couple of square feet of hair on buffalo for the winter pair, but no luck > so far. > > Todd > (who freely admits to being a greenhorn and still don't have a spiffy name) > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shoes Date: 01 Dec 1999 20:33:58 -0700 Joe, Is the offer you made to Todd open for all? I take it this leather is hair off? Is it shaved? What color can we expect it be look like? Sorry, I ask alot of questions. I might be interested if you are offering this to the members of the list. Contact me. mike. Joe Brandl wrote: > Todd, > I usually have buffalo scraps. Like right now I just finished 5 pair > of buffalo mocs. I cut up the back halves after tanning them. Enough > buffalo for a pair of ankle moccs size 10 - 11 would run $25. Let me > know. I add a 2 inch cuff around most of mine, unless the customer > wants a higher one. > Joe > Check out our web site at: www.wy-biz.com/absarokawesterndesigns/index.html > Try our great Home Tanning Kit for $39.95, based on 20 years of tanning > Rawhide lampshades, buffalo hides, lodgepole furniture, furs & leather > Give us a call? > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: a week in the wilds of Idaho Date: 01 Dec 1999 23:49:49 -0500 (EST) Capt., Thanks again for sharing. you sure have a talent for capturing fine details and translating them to words, as some others in the camp no doubt have also. [btw: is your rifle an antique or was your rifle custom built?, i.e., first time heard of that name and being .62]. from Michigan Territory ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: a week in the wilds of Idaho Date: 01 Dec 1999 21:14:17 +0000 JON MARINETTI wrote: > > Capt., > > Thanks again for sharing. you sure have a talent for capturing fine > details and translating them to words, as some others in the camp no > doubt have also. Jon, Lots of insperation floating around out there for sure. Thanks for your kind words. Glad you enjoyed the story. > [btw: is your rifle an antique or was your rifle custom built?, i.e., > first time heard of that name and being .62]. It is an antique about two years old. I made it last year in October in anticipation of taking it on my first Idaho elk hunt. That hunt last year resulted in a fine fat cow on the 14th day of the hunt, the day before I would have to leave for home. The gun is a design of Mark Silver whom I understand is a contemporary custom gun maker. His basic idea is representative of a long rifle of around 1760-80 as I recall. Jim Chambers, Mark Silver and Getz colaborate to put out the lock, stock, and barrel for assembly as a kit gun. I'm well pleased with the rifle and expect it will fill my meat pole many times over before I pass it on to my son. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sickler, Louis L" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: moccs Date: 02 Dec 1999 10:26:45 -0700 Ho the list, Here are a few references I found regarding rawhide soled moccasins, or even entire mocs being made of rawhide. I'm at work, so I can't cite page numbers from hard copy books. These are on Dean Rudy's web page, for your reading pleasure. Also included is a description of different moccasin types, from George Ruxton. ===================================================== Letters by Wm. Becknell regarding the early Southwestern trade. For instance, we subsisted two days on soup made of a raw hide we had reserved for sealing our moccasins; on the following morning the remains were dished up into a hash. =================================================== John B. Wyeth's Oregon, or a Short History of a Long Journey The Flat-heads were well dressed. They wore buck-skin frocks and pantaloons, and moccasins, with seldom any thing on their heads. They draw a piece of fresh buffalo hide on their feet, and at night sleep with their feet not far from the fire, and in the morning find their shoes sitting as snug to their feet as if they had been measured by the first shoe-maker in Boston. It is probable that no people have so little shoepinching as these savages. I never heard any one complain of corns, or kibed-heels, severe as the weather is in winter. The women wear moccasins also, but whether made in the same extempore method as those of the men, I know not. I suspect they must experience some shoepinching. ================================== Journal of a Trapper, by Osborne Russell We had plenty of Meat however and made Mocasins of raw Elk hide =========================== The River of the West - Chapter 1 In the spring, when the camp breaks up, the skins which have been used all winter for lodges are cut up to make moccasins: because from their having been thoroughly smoked by the lodge fires they do not shrink in wetting, like raw skins. This is an important quality in a moccasin, as a trapper is almost constantly in the water, and should not his moccasins be smoked they will close upon his feet, in drying, like a vice. Sometimes after trapping all day, the tired and soaked trapper lies down in his blankets at night, still wet. But by-and-by he is wakened by the pinching of his moccasins, and is obliged to rise and seek the water again to relieve himself of the pain. For the same reason, when spring comes, the trapper is forced to cut off the lower half of his buckskin breeches, and piece them down with blanket legging, which he wears all through the trapping season. ===================================== Bradbury's Travels in the Interior of America We continued to pursue our course along the creek, but with great trouble, as our mockassons, being of untanned skins, became so soft as to render it difficult to keep them on our feet. =================================== Ruxton's 'Wild Life in the Rocky Mountains Each tribe of Prairie Indians has a different method of making moccasins, so that any one, acquainted with the various fashions, is at no loss to know the nation to which any particular one belongs whom he may happen to meet. The Arapahos and Cheyennes use a "shoe" moccasin, that is, one which reaches no higher than the instep, and wants the upper sideflaps which moccasins usually have. I always used Chippewa moccasins, which differ from those of the Prairie make, by the seam being made up the center of the foot to the leg, and puckered into plaits. This, which is the true fashion of the "Forest Indian," (who, by the by, is as distinct in character and appearance from him of the "plains" as a bear from a blue-bottle) attracted the attention of the Arapaho warriors, and caused a lively discussion amongst themselves, owing to the novelty of the manufacture. They all surrounded me, and each examined and felt carefully the unusual chaussure. Towards the latter end of April green grass began to show itself in the bottoms, and -myself and two others, who had been wintering in the mountains for the benefit of their health, made preparations for our departure to the United States. Pack-saddles were inspected and repaired, apishamores made, lariats and lassos greased and stretched, mules and horses collected from their feeding-grounds, and their fore feet shod. A small supply of meat was "made" (i. e. cut into thin flaps and dried in the sun), to last until we reached the buffalo-range; rifles put in order, and balls run; hobbles cut out of rawhide, parfleche moccasins cobbled up, deerskin hunting-shirts and pantaloons patched, and all our very primitive "kit" overhauled to render it serviceable for the journey across the grand prairies, while the "possible-sack" was lightened of all superfluities -- an easy task by the way. =============================================================== Three Years Among the Indians and Mexicans, Chapter 1, by Thomas James My feet, in addition to all other sufferings, now became sore and more painful than ever. The men had made for me a moccasin of skin taken from the legs of a buffalo, and which I wore with the hair next my feet and legs. I felt the blood gurgling and bubbling in this casing at every step. ============================ The River of the West - Chapter 7 I have taken the soles off my moccasins, crisped them in the fire, and eaten them. ======================== Narrative of Robert Campbell They would cut off bears feet, and use them as moccasins to steal up and capture horses. ========================================================================== Well, there they are. I'm not going to try to draw a lot of conclusions. Looks like they made do with what they had, which for me seems like the best approach. I have and will continue to put a rawhide outer sole on my mocs. It is a necessity here in the STONY mountains if you're going to hike very far. If the rocks don't get you, the cactus will. Looks like Ruxton agreed with Mike about the center seam mocs. There were also several references to cactus and sand burrs "piercing the best of moccasins", but did not say that these had rawhide soles or not. Somewhere at home I have a period reference to a two-piece, separate sole & upper, being made. I'll have to look that one up. Hope somebody out there can use all this. Lou Sickler Colorado Territory > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe Brandl [SMTP:jbrandl@wyoming.com] > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 8:27 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: moccs > > Few if any rawhide soled moccs were ever worn at a rendezvous before > 1850. A piece of leather would of been sewn to the bottom of side > seam, center seam, pucker toe, etc. > Joe > Check out our web site at: > www.wy-biz.com/absarokawesterndesigns/index.html > Try our great Home Tanning Kit for $39.95, based on 20 years of tanning > Rawhide lampshades, buffalo hides, lodgepole furniture, furs & leather > Give us a call? > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Trees Date: 01 Dec 1999 17:14:18 -0500 buck I have a house in st charles and go there on a regular basis---wouls sure love to go to the cave you mentioned in your post send me some info--- On 1 Dec 1999 17:31:41 -0800 Buck writes: > On Wed, 01 December 1999, "John L. Allen" wrote: > > > > > None of the trees inscribed by members of the Corps of Discovery > are still > > standing, having gone the way of big timber throughout much of the > West. > > > > The only remnant that marks the passage of the Corps of Discovery > is William > > Clark's characteristic and readily identifiable scratched > signature on > > Pompey's Pillar (Tower) just east of Billings, Montana. > > > > John > > > > Dr. John L. Allen > > 21 Thomas Drive > > Storrs, CT 06268 > > 860/487-1346 > > johnlallen@uconn.cted.net > > > > > Doc, > > If you ever get a chance to go to Washington MO, check with me and > I'll get you a name or two that can show you "Tavern Cave", the one > Lewis & Clark stayed in for a period of time. Has ORDWAY's name and > several others scribed into the walls, only thing that has saved > them (their names) is it's location and over the years water has > deepened the cave making the name about 10 foot off the muddy floor > now. > > Later, > Buck Conner > _________________________________ > Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html > Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ > AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html > _________________________________ > Aux Ailments de Pays! > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account > http://www.uswestmail.net > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html "HAWK" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: MtMan-List: Smoke tan Date: 02 Dec 1999 12:12:50 -0600 Any ideas how I can smoke hides in the "city." Jim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sickler, Louis L" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Smoke tan Date: 02 Dec 1999 11:52:36 -0700 Jim, I set my weber grill under my hides hanging from a limb. I sew a canvas or old jean skirt onto the bottom of the hide tube to protect it from the heat. Start a small fire in the grill, and when it burns down, add rotten cotton wood, hickory chips, or whatever you like. Put the top on the grill, position the hide tube over the vent and smoke away. The smoke escapes out from the little vent in the top right into the hide tube, works great. Never had anybody question what I was doing. Can only do one at a time this way, but that's all I ever seem to have ready at any given time. Lou Sickler Colorado Territory > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Lindberg [SMTP:jal@sgi.com] > Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 11:13 AM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Smoke tan > > Any ideas how I can smoke hides in the "city." > > Jim > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Smoke tan Date: 02 Dec 1999 10:53:50 -0800 We usually sew or baste the hide(s) into a sort of balloon which is held open by little sticks and strings etc, and fed by a small stove pipe. In the stove we burn the usual punk cottonwood chips or other dry smoky (not resinous) material. The hide is ready in 1-2 hours. You could presumably get away with this in any neighborhood which tolerates burning of leaves etc. If not, you might have to attempt this at the next rendezvous or camp, which would make an interesting demonstration. The fully primitive method (aside from hanging in the tipi) involves doing the same thing as above, without the stove, using a small fire in a pit with skin tented over it. A properly brain-tanned but unsmoked hide will keep fine as long as it is dry. YMOS Pat Quilter -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 10:13 AM Any ideas how I can smoke hides in the "city." Jim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccs Date: 02 Dec 1999 12:17:34 -0700 Lou- Great input! No matter if the references agree with me or not, that is how we all learn. And even decide on what to wear, use and put on. The Denver Art Museum does have some Indian Mocs with thin rawhide soles, a little later than we portary, but still around. I do agree that some times a hard sole is nice to have, there have been camps where it has taken a year or more to get all the prickly pear needles out of the mocs and not have the sox stay in the mocs when you pull your foot out. I find the side seam to be my favorite, all moc styles have their pros and cons (hard soles being they are so slippery in wet grass and when wet all the way through). And even the side seams take regular restiching to redo the front stiches from scuffing and dragging of the feet. mike. Sickler, Louis L wrote: > Ho the list, > > Here are a few references I found regarding rawhide soled moccasins, or even > entire mocs being made of rawhide. I'm at work, so I can't cite page > numbers from hard copy books. These are on Dean Rudy's web page, for your > reading pleasure. > > Also included is a description of different moccasin types, from George > Ruxton. > > ===================================================== > Letters by Wm. Becknell regarding the early Southwestern trade. > > For instance, we subsisted two days on soup made of a raw hide we had > reserved for sealing our moccasins; on the following morning the remains > were dished up into a hash. > > =================================================== > John B. Wyeth's Oregon, or a Short History of a Long Journey > > The Flat-heads were well dressed. They wore buck-skin frocks and pantaloons, > and moccasins, with seldom > any thing on their heads. They draw a piece of fresh buffalo hide on their > feet, and at night sleep with their feet not far from the fire, and in the > morning find their shoes sitting as snug to their feet as if they had been > measured by the first shoe-maker in Boston. It is probable that no people > have so little shoepinching as these savages. I never heard any one complain > of corns, or kibed-heels, severe as the weather is in winter. > The women wear moccasins also, but whether made in the same extempore method > as those of the men, I know not. I suspect they must experience some > shoepinching. > > ================================== > Journal of a Trapper, by Osborne Russell > > We had plenty of Meat however and made Mocasins of raw Elk hide > > =========================== > The River of the West - Chapter 1 > > In the spring, when the camp breaks up, the skins which have been used all > winter for lodges are cut up to make moccasins: because from their having > been thoroughly smoked by the lodge fires they do not shrink in wetting, > like raw skins. This is an important quality in a moccasin, as a trapper is > almost constantly in the water, and should not his moccasins be smoked they > will close upon his feet, in drying, like a vice. > Sometimes after trapping all day, the tired and soaked trapper lies down in > his blankets at night, still wet. But by-and-by he is wakened by the > pinching of his moccasins, and is obliged to rise and seek the water again > to relieve himself of the pain. For the same reason, when spring comes, the > trapper is forced to cut off the lower half of his buckskin breeches, and > piece them down with blanket legging, which he wears all > through the trapping season. > > ===================================== > Bradbury's Travels in the Interior of America > > We continued to pursue our course along the creek, but with great trouble, > as our mockassons, being of untanned skins, became so soft as to render it > difficult to keep them on our feet. > > =================================== > Ruxton's 'Wild Life in the Rocky Mountains > > Each tribe of Prairie Indians has a different method of making moccasins, so > that any one, acquainted with the various fashions, is at no loss to know > the nation to which any particular one belongs whom he may happen to meet. > The Arapahos and Cheyennes use a "shoe" moccasin, that is, one which reaches > no higher than the instep, and wants the upper sideflaps which moccasins > usually have. I always used Chippewa moccasins, which differ from those of > the Prairie make, by the seam being made up the center of the foot to the > leg, and puckered into plaits. This, which is the true fashion of the > "Forest Indian," (who, by the by, is as distinct in character and appearance > from him of the "plains" as a bear from a blue-bottle) attracted the > attention of the Arapaho warriors, and caused a lively discussion amongst > themselves, owing to the novelty of the manufacture. They all surrounded me, > and each examined and felt carefully the unusual chaussure. > > Towards the latter end of April green grass began to show itself in the > bottoms, and -myself and two others, who had been wintering in the mountains > for the benefit of their health, made preparations for our departure to the > United States. Pack-saddles were inspected and repaired, apishamores made, > lariats and lassos greased and stretched, mules and horses collected from > their feeding-grounds, and their fore feet shod. A small supply of meat was > "made" (i. e. cut into thin flaps and dried in the sun), to last until we > reached the buffalo-range; rifles put in order, and balls run; hobbles cut > out of rawhide, parfleche moccasins cobbled up, deerskin hunting-shirts and > pantaloons patched, and all our very primitive "kit" overhauled to render it > serviceable for the journey across the grand prairies, while the > "possible-sack" was lightened of all superfluities -- an easy task by the > way. > =============================================================== > > Three Years Among the Indians and Mexicans, Chapter 1, by Thomas James > > My feet, in addition to all other sufferings, now became sore and more > painful than ever. The men had made for me a moccasin of skin taken from the > legs of a buffalo, and which I wore with the hair next my feet and legs. I > felt the blood gurgling and bubbling in this casing at every step. > ============================ > > The River of the West - Chapter 7 > > I have taken the soles off my moccasins, crisped them in the fire, and eaten > them. > ======================== > > Narrative of Robert Campbell > > They would cut off bears feet, and use them as moccasins to steal up and > capture horses. > ========================================================================== > > Well, there they are. I'm not going to try to draw a lot of conclusions. > Looks like they made do with what they had, which for me seems like the best > approach. I have and will continue to put a rawhide outer sole on my mocs. > It is a necessity here in the STONY mountains if you're going to hike very > far. If the rocks don't get you, the cactus will. > > Looks like Ruxton agreed with Mike about the center seam mocs. > > There were also several references to cactus and sand burrs "piercing the > best of moccasins", but did not say that these had rawhide soles or not. > > Somewhere at home I have a period reference to a two-piece, separate sole & > upper, being made. I'll have to look that one up. > > Hope somebody out there can use all this. > > Lou Sickler > Colorado Territory > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Joe Brandl [SMTP:jbrandl@wyoming.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 8:27 PM > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: MtMan-List: moccs > > > > Few if any rawhide soled moccs were ever worn at a rendezvous before > > 1850. A piece of leather would of been sewn to the bottom of side > > seam, center seam, pucker toe, etc. > > Joe > > Check out our web site at: > > www.wy-biz.com/absarokawesterndesigns/index.html > > Try our great Home Tanning Kit for $39.95, based on 20 years of tanning > > Rawhide lampshades, buffalo hides, lodgepole furniture, furs & leather > > Give us a call? > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Douglas Hepner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Richard (Beaver Dick) Leigh Trapper/Guide Date: 02 Dec 1999 19:05:02 -0600 There is a book about Beaver Dick Leigh called "The Honor and The Heart Break" by Edith M. Schultz Thompson and William Leigh Thompson published by Jelm Mountain Press, Laramie WY in 1982. I also have a book that has a small article about him. I will see if I can find any info in it that might help. YMOS "Dull Hawk" ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 1:07 PM > At 11:31 PM 11/30/1999 EST, you wrote: > > > >Does anyone have any info on a trapper/guide named Richard "Beaver Dick" > >Leigh. > >He has a lake named after him near Yellowstone and he married a Shoshone > >Indian woman named Jenny, who also has a lake named for her. My grandmother > >always said that this couple was her grandparents or great-grandparents, but > >all information I can find says Jenny and their five children all died of > >pneumonia. He was married at Fort Hall, Idaho, Thanks Jamie > > > Beaver Dick lived primarily in the area now known as Rexburg, Idahol. There > is a park on the Henry's Fork of the Snake River west of Rexburg call Beaver > Dick park. He guided the Hayden expedition in Yellowstone park, and was > pretty "colorful". Leigh Lake and Jenny Lake in Jackson's Hole are named > for him and his Shoshoni wife, Jenny. > > Contact me privately if you want for more stuff. I live near this area. > > Allen Hall from Fort Hall country > Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Douglas Hepner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trap Discussion Date: 02 Dec 1999 19:12:05 -0600 Has anyone actually used any of these traps for beaver trapping? "Dull Hawk" ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 1:29 PM > > > >Let's talk traps. I note in Carl Russell's book that Victor traps dated > > >back only to around 1886 but they are still (I think) making traps today. > > > >My questions: > > > >2) Alternately, are there any current trap builders who supply a historically correct trap in the 3-4 lb range? > > > "Arrow Head Forge" has a good looking period trap available. > > > Later, > Buck Conner > _________________________________ > Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html > Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ > AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html > _________________________________ > Aux Ailments de Pays! > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BoborJamie@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Richard (Beaver Dick) Leigh Trapper/Guide Date: 03 Dec 1999 00:23:12 EST Thanks so much. I have Amazon.com doing a search for it right now. bibliiofind.com couldn't find it either. This will be a great help. Thanks again ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl Subject: RE: MtMan-List: moccs Date: 02 Dec 1999 13:34:13 -0700 There is a great deal of difference in a 2 piece rawhide sole mocc and moccs made from raw skins. Thanks for the references, good to have on file. Joe Check out our web site at: www.wy-biz.com/absarokawesterndesigns/index.html Try our great Home Tanning Kit for $39.95, based on 20 years of tanning Rawhide lampshades, buffalo hides, lodgepole furniture, furs & leather Give us a call? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BoborJamie@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: "Beaver" Dick Leigh family Date: 04 Dec 1999 03:36:10 EST --part1_0.533184d2.257a2c7a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_0.533184d2.257a2c7a_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: BoborJamie@aol.com Full-name: BoborJamie Message-ID: <0.b2241c55.257a27a4@aol.com> Hepnerhist_text@xmission.com dullhawk@texomaonline.com Douglas Hepner, MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part2_0.533184d2.257a27a4_boundary" X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 --part2_0.533184d2.257a27a4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pertaining to information request for Beaver Dick Leigh This is very exciting for me as well. I don't know for sure yet if I can make a direct family connection, but I will certainly check it out. This site has proved to be the most interesting not only on a personal basis, but a historical as well. Everyone seems so involved and eager to exchange information, it's like meeting a long lost family. Thank you so much for your input. I certainly will investigate it further. I have had several fruitful responses. Thank you to the entire group. Jamie Thanks also to Allen who has also provided important information. --part2_0.533184d2.257a27a4_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-zc01.mx.aol.com (rly-zc01.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.1]) by air-zc02.mail.aol.com (vx) with ESMTP; Fri, 03 Dec 1999 21:28:09 -0500 Received: from babbage.duracom.net ([216.226.6.15]) by rly-zc01.mx.aol.com (v66.4) with ESMTP; Fri, 03 Dec 1999 21:27:50 -0500 Received: from g0o6q3 (kin-usr-ppp-71.fullnet.net [207.50.6.202] (may be forged)) by babbage.duracom.net (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id UAA01547 for ; Fri, 03 Dec 1999 20:28:58 -0600 Message-ID: <003e01bf3dfe$f211bee0$ca0632cf@g0o6q3> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003A_01BF3DCC.A31442E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01BF3DCC.A31442E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable According to a book I have, Beaver Dick's "first" family was stricken with s= mall pox. In a letter he wrote of the incedent, he did not mention the death= of Anne Jane (one of his girls) so she may haved survived. He also remarrie= d to a woman who was promised to him at birth (also a Shoshone) and they had= three children, Emma b.1881, William Bradhurst Leigh b.1886, and Rose b.188= 6. Do any of these names ring a bell? I deeply hope that this info helps you= with your research. The book I got this info from is "Mountain Men of Jacks= on's Hole" by Fern K. Nelson published by Jackson Hole Museum (where I bough= t it). I sent an attachment of a picture of Beaver Dick's first family (also= from the book). This is kinda exciting for me, so let me know what you find= out. You might share your findings with all of us at the mountain man list,= I think that we would all like to hear about it even if it is not pre-1840.= I know I would! YMOS "Dull Hawk"=20 ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01BF3DCC.A31442E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
According to a book I have,= Beaver=20 Dick's "first" family was stricken with small pox. In a letter he wrote= of=20 the incedent, he did not mention the death of Anne Jane (one of his girls) s= o=20 she may haved survived. He also remarried to a woman who was promised t= o=20 him at birth (also a Shoshone) and they had three children, Emma b.1881, Wil= liam=20 Bradhurst Leigh b.1886, and Rose b.1886. Do any of these names ring a bell?=20= I=20 deeply hope that this info helps you with your research. The book I got this= =20 info from is "Mountain Men of Jackson's Hole" by Fern K. Nelson published by= =20 Jackson Hole Museum (where I bought it). I sent an attachment of a pict= ure=20 of Beaver Dick's first family (also from the book). This is kinda exciting f= or=20 me, so let me know what you find out. You might share your findings with all= of=20 us at the mountain man list, I think that we would all like to hear abo= ut=20 it even if it is not pre-1840. I know I would!
 
YMOS
"Dull=20 Hawk" 
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Date: 04 Dec 1999 21:05:23 EST Just got in after a 10 day period camp, scouting and making meat in a spe= cial season on private land here in the middle of Pennsylvania. Got a nice 9 point eastern count, I know guys in the west thats a weak 4 point. Don't comment Turtle or Buck, I don't want to hear you guys giving= me hell for shooting a baby. Just took a fast look at the internet and see Wendy has finished your per= sonal page Buck, looks good - lots of neat information we all can use. Anyone else make meat in the last few weeks, I have over 100 e-mails and = am sure several have written from the hist list of smake pole kills. Had bet= ter get busy have a ton of wash and getting ready to go back to work. Later Concho Smith Locks Bank, PA. ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm= ail.netscape.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trappers Date: 04 Dec 1999 19:00:55 -0700 Laura, I have been holding on to your request for names of trappers for your upcoming book. While many have given you their list already, I hope my input is not too late. There are many colorful characters to write about and the ones I would choose are( in no special order): old Bill Willaims Jedediah Smith Jim Bridger One or more of the Bent Brothers Willaim Ashley John Coulter John Smith Etienne Provost George Ruxton Laura, thse are a wide mix of men. Some regular trappers- others important in other areas (writers, fort builders and guides) and which cover the whole time frame. They are are very colorful characters, easy to write about and INTERESTING. All are not well known or if they are only about part of their lives. Anyway, hope this is a help. The area of writing you are doing this on is of interest for me, since I started my interest in history as a young boy of maybe 7 or 8 picking up a book on Kit Carson in the school library. Good Luck. mike. Laura Glise wrote: > 6:00 p.m. PST > > I would like help from the list with my latest project. > > I am writing a non-fiction book for young adults (interest level grade 4 and up) on the American fur trade. As an educator I know first-hand that most history books for young adults skip from Lewis and Clark to the Oregon Trail. Textbooks skip this important time in our nation's history and, with the exception of Bridger and maybe Beckworth, there aren't biographies on the shelves. > > Part of the book will include biographies on 7-10 trappers. > > I am interested in list member's opinions on which mountaineers should be included. Please contact me off the list with your ideas > > Wind1838@aol.com > Thank you. Laura Glise > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Access your e-mail anywhere, at any time. > Get your FREE BellSouth Web Mail account today! > http://webmail.bellsouth.net > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Laura Glise" Subject: MtMan-List: Trappers Date: 04 Dec 1999 22:29:25 -0500 Mike: Thank you for taking the time to respond to my request. I had not received a nomination for one or more of the Bent Brothers, or George Ruxton. I will study their lives with interest. It pleases me to hear your comment that you became a lover of history at seven or eight. With no prior desire to teach, I became an educator and a children's librarian. When my young boys were in first grade they wanted books on jellyfish and fire house dogs. When the same young boys became young men they wanted adventure and "disaster" books. I say they wanted, more accurately, they craved, stories of courage, adventure, and bravery. This may, indeed, be off topic. But I see a hunger in children, especially boys, for what was once categorized as growing up . . . . proudly carrying a pocket knife, popping a firecracker, playing cowboys and Indians. All these things are now politically incorrect and subversive. Leaves little room for the imagination, and a proud place for the body to grow into. I promised the boys I mentored that before they got out of high school I would write a book for them that would help them grow up. I can't really think of a better way than educating them in the ways that young trappers grew into men, confronting adversity and fear, in the face. Our children now face a different fear but many do not learn, at home, how to look down the barrel. Thank you again for your nominations. Laura Glise Wind1838@aol.com Access your e-mail anywhere, at any time. Get your FREE BellSouth Web Mail account today! http://webmail.bellsouth.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Laura Glise" Subject: MtMan-List: Trappers Date: 04 Dec 1999 23:37:28 -0500 Mike: There was one more point I wanted to make in my reference to the young boys that are trying to grow into men now . . . many of them are growing up without men in their lives. Grandfathers or fathers. Only males that drop into and out of their lives all too quickly. A watered down lineage that breaks the heart. It's hard to grow into manhood without a proper role model. Even an inspiring book about mountaineers and the lives they led doesn't stand up to a firm handshake and the understanding of the concept of what a "man's word" means. Respectfully submitted, Laura Glise Wind1839@aol.com Access your e-mail anywhere, at any time. Get your FREE BellSouth Web Mail account today! http://webmail.bellsouth.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trappers Date: 04 Dec 1999 21:34:15 -0800 Laura, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I want to scream every time I hear some 'talking head' speak of the lack of 'American heroes' for todays youth. Our rich History is packed full of wonderful heroes. All one needs to do to discover them is to read. Unfortunately the educational system has become so dumbed down, TV and video games have become so popular, and our history has been so disparaged that our youth are completely unaware of the multitude of heroes who made this country great. More power to you for trying to enlighten the young. Hardtack Your Second Amendment Rights protect ALL of your other Rights, Don't give up your Rights ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: MtMan-List: AMM AUCTION` Date: 05 Dec 1999 10:06:47 -0500 Hello and excuse the interuption in the scheduled programming. Just a quick reminder. 12 hrs to go on the AMM AUCTION Still some great bargains, and at EXACTLY 10P.M. E.S.T. I will pull the site and no bids will be accepted after that time. Thanks for y'alls support and help.. D -- "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trappers Date: 05 Dec 1999 08:14:00 -0800 On Sat, 04 December 1999, Mike Moore wrote: > > Laura, > I have been holding on to your request for names of trappers for your upcoming book. While many have given you their list already, I hope my input is not too late. There are many colorful characters to write about and the ones I would choose are( in no special order): > old Bill Willaims > Jedediah Smith > Jim Bridger > One or more of the Bent Brothers > Willaim Ashley > John Coulter > John Smith > Etienne Provost > George Ruxton Laura, When putting your list together for possible characters don't forget the businessmen (if they didn't provide an outlet to move the trappers goods none of this as we know it would have happened). Look at the lives of John Jacob Astor, the Bent's, several that stayed in the east like Tryon (a hardware firm, gun manufacturer and supplier - still in business today)or Saint Louis has several that started in the fur trade and are still going, the ones that where behind the trade it's self. A good example today, John Jacob Astor (the 6th,7th,8th not sure which number) has been involved with the rebuilding of Ft. Union, he knows where the family wealth was made originally - in the fur trade, then real estate. Seems many of this family have left out the first step in, the fur trade. Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html _________________________________ Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Anyone make meat with their muzzleloader ? Date: 05 Dec 1999 08:26:20 -0800 On Sat, 04 December 1999, Concho Smith wrote: Got a nice 9 point eastern count, I know guys in the west thats a weak 4 point. Don't comment Turtle or Buck, I don't want to hear ..... OH BOY, we shot another baby (only kidding have done the same many times when growing up there), why don't you come and hunt with me in Jan. 2000 Concho, snow to butt, modern season (we still use muzzleloaders anyway), a correct period sled to pull game out with, the whole deal. With any luck an average mulie will be double the size of your PA whitetail, even our whitetails out do their counterparts. I keep waiting for this Fish & Game Dept. to wakeup and push whitetail hunting and look at a new breeding program like PA did in the late 50's and early 60's with northern white tails, now there's some serious game animals. > Just took a fast look at the internet and see Wendy has finished your personal page Buck,....... Have another 25-30 articles to add, then want to start a "family tree" web site as the rest of the bunch sit on their thumbs. Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html _________________________________ Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Smith Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Trappers] Date: 05 Dec 1999 14:03:49 EST Buck wrote: Laura, When putting your list together for possible characters don't forget the businessmen (if they didn't provide an outlet to move the trappers goods = none of this as we know it would have happened). Look at the lives of John Jac= ob Astor, the Bent's, several that stayed in the east like Tryon (a hardware= firm, gun manufacturer and supplier - still in business today)or Saint Lo= uis has several that started in the fur trade and are still going, the ones t= hat where behind the trade it's self. A good example today, John Jacob Astor (the 6th,7th,8th not sure which nu= mber) has been involved with the rebuilding of Ft. Union, he knows where the fa= mily wealth was made originally - in the fur trade, then real estate. Seems ma= ny of this family have left out the first step in, the fur trade. Later, Buck _____________________________________ Good point, probably why so many have been missed is they led normal live= s with day to day routines of the business, not the exciting events we all = like to read about like Smith, Bridger, etc. - they are the ones that sell the= books. Not someone placing orders, making a product, etc. See Ya Concho Smith Locks Bank, PA. ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm= ail.netscape.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Smith Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Anyone make meat with their muzzleloader ?] Date: 05 Dec 1999 14:10:24 EST Buck wrote: OH BOY, we shot another baby (only kidding have done the same many times = when growing up there), why don't you come and hunt with me in Jan. 2000 Conch= o, snow to your butt, modern season (we still use muzzleloaders anyway), a correct period sled to pull game out with, the whole deal....... ---------------------- Why didn't you mention this at Thanksgiving when I was at your place, apparently more than one turkey at the table, right Dennis M. ? I'll let you know on Monday evening, so be home to get my call and I'm ho= lding you to me getting a big mulie (even if you have to tie it up the weekend before) Thanks Buck for everything while at the house and this offer. Concho ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm= ail.netscape.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT relevant but OT Date: 05 Dec 1999 12:41:53 -0600 The following came through the other day and I found it enlightening. I normally don't post such to this list. As things have been relatively quiet= I thought some might enjoy. John... >=20 >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 The Conservative Caucus Documents of Freedom= Collection >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0 "Not Yours To Give" >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 by= Col. David Crockett >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 US Representative= from Tennesee >=20 >=A0=A0=A0 Originally published in "The Life of Colonel David Crockett," by >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= Edward Sylvester Ellis. >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > One day in the House of Representatives a bill was taken up > appropriating money for the benefit of a widow of a distinguished > naval officer. Several beautiful speeches had been made in its > support. The speaker was just about to put the question when Crockett > arose: >=20 > "Mr. Speaker--I have as much respect for the memory of the deceased, > and as much sympathy for the suffering of the living, if there be, as > any man in this House, but we must not permit our respect for the dead > or our sympathy for part of the living to lead us into an act of > injustice to the balance of the living. I will not go into an argument > to prove that Congress has not the power to appropriate this money as > an act of charity. Every member on this floor knows it. >=20 > We have the right as individuals, to give away as much of our own > money as we please in charity; but as members of Congress we have no > right to appropriate a dollar of the public money. Some eloquent > appeals have been made to us upon the ground that it is a debt due the > deceased. Mr. Speaker, the deceased lived long after the close of the > war; he was in office to the day of his death, and I ever heard that > the government was in arrears to him. >=20 > "Every man in this House knows it is not a debt. We cannot without the > grossest corruption, appropriate this money as the payment of a debt. > We have not the emblance of authority to appropriate it as charity. > Mr. Speaker, I have said we have the right to give as much money of > our own as we please. I am the poorest man on this floor. I cannot > vote for this bill, but I will give one week's pay to the object, and > if every member of Congress will do the same, it will amount to more > than the bill asks." >=20 > He took his seat. Nobody replied. The bill was put upon its passage, > and, instead of passing unanimously, as was generally supposed, and > as, no doubt, it would, but for that speech, it received but few > votes, and, of course, was lost. >=20 > Later, when asked by a friend why he had opposed the appropriation, > Crockett gave this explanation: >=20 > "Several years ago I was one evening standing on the steps of the > Capitol with some members of Congress, when our attention was > attracted by a great light over in Georgetown. It was evidently a > large fire. We jumped into a hack and drove over as fast as we could. > In spite of all that could be done, many houses were burned and many > families made houseless, and besides, some of them had lost all but > the clothes they had on. The weather was very cold, and when I saw so > many children suffering, I felt that something ought to be done for > them. The next morning a bill was introduced appropriating $20,000 for > their relief. We put aside all other business and rushed it through as > soon as it could be done. >=20 > "The next summer, when it began to be time to think about election, I > concluded I would take a scout around among the boys of my district. I > had no opposition there but, as the election was some time off, I did > not know what might turn up. When riding one day in a part of my > district in which I was more of a stranger than any other, I saw a man > in a field plowing and coming toward the road. I gauged my gait so > that we should meet as he came up, I spoke to the man. He replied > politely, but as I thought, rather coldly. >=20 > "I began: 'Well friend, I am one of those unfortunate beings called > candidates and--- >=20 > "Yes I know you; you are Colonel Crockett. I have seen you once > before, and voted for you the last time you were elected. I suppose > you are out electioneering now, but you had better not waste your time > or mine, I shall not vote for you again." >=20 > "This was a sockdolger...I begged him tell me what was the matter. >=20 > "Well Colonel, it is hardly worthwhile to waste time or words upon it. > I do not see how it can be mended, but you gave a vote last winter > which shows that either you have not capacity to understand the > Constitution, or that you are wanting in the honesty and firmness to > be guided by it. In either case you are not the man to represent me. > But I beg your pardon for expressing it that way. I did not intend to > avail myself of the privilege of the constituent to speak plainly to a > candidate for the purpose of insulting you or wounding you.' >=20 > "I intend by it only to say that your understanding of the > constitution is very different from mine; and I will say to you what > but for my rudeness, I should not have said, that I believe you to be > honest. >=20 > But an understanding of the constitution different from mine I cannot > overlook, because the Constitution, to be worth anything, must be held > sacred, and rigidly observed in all its provisions. The man who wields > power and misinterprets it is the more dangerous the honest he is.' >=20 > " 'I admit the truth of all you say, but there must be some mistake. > Though I live in the backwoods and seldom go from home, I take the > papers from Washington and read very carefully all the proceedings of > Congress. My papers say you voted for a bill to appropriate $20,000 to > some sufferers by fire in Georgetown. Is that true? >=20 > "Well my friend; I may as well own up. You have got me there. But > certainly nobody will complain that a great and rich country like ours > should give the insignificant sum of $20,000 to relieve its suffering > women and children, particularly with a full and overflowing treasury, > and I am sure, if you had been there, you would have done just the > same as I did.' >=20 > "It is not the amount, Colonel, that I complain of; it is the > principle. In the first place, the government ought to have in the > Treasury no more than enough for its legitimate purposes. But that has > nothing with the question. The power of collecting and disbursing > money at pleasure is the most dangerous power that can be entrusted to > man, particularly under our system of collecting revenue by a tariff, > which reaches every man in the country, no matter how poor he may be, > and the poorer he is the more he pays in proportion to his means. >=20 > What is worse, it presses upon him without his knowledge where the > weight centers, for there is not a man in the United States who can > ever guess how much he pays to the government. So you see, that while > you are contributing to relieve one, you are drawing it from thousands > who are even worse off than he. >=20 > If you had the right to give anything, the amount was simply a matter > of discretion with you, and you had as much right to give $20,000,000 > as $20,000. If you have the right to give at all; and as the > Constitution neither defines charity nor stipulates the amount, you > are at liberty to give to any and everything which you may believe, or > profess to believe, is a charity and to any amount you may think > proper. You will very easily perceive what a wide door this would open > for fraud and corruption and favoritism, on the one hand, and for > robbing the people on the other. 'No, Colonel, Congress has no right > to give charity.' >=20 > "'Individual members may give as much of their own money as they > please, but they have no right to touch a dollar of the public money > for that purpose. If twice as many houses had been burned in this > country as in Georgetown, neither you nor any other member of Congress > would have Thought of appropriating a dollar for our relief. There are > about two hundred and forty members of Congress. If they had shown > their sympathy for the sufferers by contributing each one week's pay, > it would have made over $13,000. There are plenty of wealthy men > around Washington who could have given $20,000 without depriving > themselves of even a luxury of life.' >=20 > "The congressmen chose to keep their own money, which, if reports be > true, some of them spend not very creditably; and the people about > Washington, no doubt, applauded you for relieving them from necessity > of giving what was not yours to give. The people have delegated to > Congress, by the Constitution, the power to do certain things. To do > these, it is authorized to collect and pay moneys, and for nothing > else. Everything beyond this is usurpation, and a violation of the > Constitution.' >=20 > "'So you see, Colonel, you have violated the Constitution in what I > consider a vital point. It is a precedent fraught with danger to the > country, for when Congress once begins to stretch its power beyond the > limits of the Constitution, there is no limit to it, and no security > for the people. I have no doubt you acted honestly, but that does not > make it any better, except as far as you are personally concerned, and > you see that I cannot vote for you.' >=20 > "I tell you I felt streaked. I saw if I should have opposition, and > this man should go to talking and in that district I was a gone > fawn-skin. I could not answer him, and the fact is, I was so fully > convinced that he was right, I did not want to. But I must satisfy > him, and I said to him: >=20 > "Well, my friend, you hit the nail upon the head when you said I had > not sense enough to understand the Constitution. I intended to be > guided by it, and thought I had studied it fully. I have heard many > speeches in Congress about the powers of Congress, but what you have > said here at your plow has got more hard, sound sense in it than all > the fine speeches I ever heard. If I had ever taken the view of it > that you have, I would have put my head into the fire before I would > have given that vote; and if you will forgive me and vote for me > again, if I ever vote for another unconstitutional law I wish I may be > shot.' >=20 > "He laughingly replied; 'Yes, Colonel, you have sworn to that once > before, but I will trust you again upon one condition. You are > convinced that your vote was wrong. Your acknowledgment of it will do > more good than beating you for it. If, as you go around the district, > you will tell people about this vote, and that you are satisfied it > was wrong, I will not only vote for you, but will do what I can to > keep down opposition, and perhaps, I may exert some little influence > in that way.' >=20 > "If I don't, said I, 'I wish I may be shot; and to convince you that I > am in ernest in what I say I will come back this way in a week or ten > days, and if you will get up a gathering of people, I will make a > speech to them. Get up a barbecue, and I will pay for it.' >=20 > "No, Colonel, we are not rich people in this section but we have > plenty of provisions to contribute for a barbecue, and some to spare > for those who have none. The push of crops will be over in a few days, > and we can then afford a day for a barbecue. 'This Thursday; I will > see to getting it up on Saturday week. Come to my house on Friday, and > we will go together, and I promise you a very respectable crowd to see > and hear you. >=20 > "'Well I will be here. But one thing more before I say good-bye. I > must know your name." >=20 > "'My name is Bunce.' >=20 > "'Not Horatio Bunce?' >=20 > "'Yes >=20 > "'Well, Mr. Bunce, I never saw you before, though you say you have > seen me, but I know you very well. I am glad I have met you, and very > proud that I may hope to have you for my friend.' >=20 > "It was one of the luckiest hits of my life that I met him. He mingled > but little with the public, but was widely known for his remarkable > intelligence, and for a heart brim-full and running over with kindness > and benevolence, which showed themselves not only in words but in > acts. He was the oracle of the whole country around him, and his fame > had extended far beyond the circle of his immediate acquaintance. > Though I had never met him, before, I had heard much of him, and but > for this meeting it is very likely I should have had opposition, and > had been beaten. One thing is very certain, no man could now stand up > in that district under such a vote. >=20 > "At the appointed time I was at his house, having told our > conversation to every crowd I had met, and to every man I stayed all > night with, and I found that it gave the people an interest and > confidence in me stronger than I had ever seen manifested before. >=20 > "Though I was considerably fatigued when I reached his house, and, > under ordinary circumstances, should have gone early to bed, I kept > him up until midnight talking about the principles and affairs of > government, and got more real, true knowledge of them than I had got > all my life before." >=20 > "I have known and seen much of him since, for I respect him - no, that > is not the word - I reverence and love him more than any living man, > and I go to see him two or three times every year; and I will tell > you, sir, if every one who professes to be a Christian lived and acted > and enjoyed it as he does, the religion of Christ would take the world > by storm. >=20 > "But to return to my story. The next morning we went to the barbecue > and, to my surprise, found about a thousand men there. I met a good > many whom I had not known before, and they and my friend introduced me > around until I had got pretty well acquainted - at least, they all > knew me. >=20 > "In due time notice was given that I would speak to them. They > gathered up around a stand that had been erected. I opened my speech > by saying: >=20 > "Fellow-citizens - I present myself before you today feeling like a > new man. My eyes have lately been opened to truths which ignorance or > prejudice or both, had heretofore hidden from my view. I feel that I > can today offer you the ability to render you more valuable service > than I have ever been able to render before. I am here today more for > the purpose of acknowledging my error than to seek your votes. That I > should make this acknowledgment is due to myself as well as to you. > Whether you will vote for me is a matter for your consideration only." >=20 > "I went on to tell them about the fire and my vote for the > appropriation and then told them why I was satisfied it was wrong. I > closed by saying: >=20 > "And now, fellow-citizens, it remains only for me to tell you that the > most of the speech you have listened to with so much interest was > simply a repetition of the arguments by which your neighbor, Mr. > Bunce, convinced me of my error. >=20 > "It is the best speech I ever made in my life, but he is entitled to > the credit for it. And now I hope he is satisfied with his convert and > that he will get up here and tell you so.' >=20 > "He came up to the stand and said: >=20 > "Fellow-citizens - it affords me great pleasure to comply with the > request of Colonel Crockett. I have always considered him a thoroughly > honest man, and I am satisfied that he will faithfully perform all > that he has promised you today.' >=20 > "He went down, and there went up from that crowd such a shout for Davy > Crockett as his name never called forth before.' >=20 > "I am not much given to tears, but I was taken with a choking then and > felt some big drops rolling down my cheeks. And I tell you now that > the remembrance of those few words spoken by such a man, and the > honest, hearty shout they produced, is worth more to me than all the > honors I have received and all the reputation I have ever made, or > ever shall make, as a member of Congress.' >=20 > "Now, sir," concluded Crockett, "you know why I made that speech > yesterday. "There is one thing which I will call your attention, "you > remember that I proposed to give a week's pay. There are in that House > many very wealthy men - men who think nothing of spending a week's > pay, or a dozen of them, for a dinner or a wine party when they have > something to accomplish by it. Some of those same men made beautiful > speeches upon the great debt of gratitude which the country owed the > deceased--a debt which could not be paid by money--and the > insignificance and worthlessness of money, particularly so > insignificant a sum as $20,000 when weighed against the honor of the > nation. Yet not one of them responded to my proposition. Money with > them is nothing but trash when it is to come out of the people. But it > is the one great thing for which most of them are striving, and many > of them sacrifice honor, integrity, and justice to obtain it." >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without.=20 john kramer@kramerize.com =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: MtMan-List: AMM AUCTION (AGAIN) Date: 05 Dec 1999 16:23:41 -0500 Hi all, Just a quick word...If you haven't checked the Auction in the last 5 minutes and think you still have that high bid on an item, better check again.. The bids are a flyin' like lead at a Blackfoot... Thanks D -- "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Anyone make meat with their muzzleloader ?] Date: 05 Dec 1999 16:36:23 -0500 Concho Wrote: Why didn't you mention this at Thanksgiving when I was at your place,apparently more than one turkey at the table, right Dennis M. ? >>Concho, as much as I would like to chime in on this, I won't.. You see, Buck is patiently waiting for a knife, and I don't wanna rile the ol' coot.. If you catch my drift.. D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Anyone make meat with their muzzleloader ?] Date: 05 Dec 1999 16:50:43 -0500 Hi, Gee, I mis-spoke.. I MEANT "Silver Haired Gentleman"... D Dennis Miles wrote: > ol' coot.. -- "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Subject: MtMan-List: 1999 Xmas Greeting Date: 05 Dec 1999 15:16:24 -0800 1999 Xmas Greeting from Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. At this wonerful time of the year, remember those of the past and present, loved ones and friends, God Bless them all. We've given you a little history of what was going on with the Corp of Discovery under the direction of Lewis & Clark. On Christmas Eve, the temperature climbed above zero - and almost above freezing. Fort Mandan was deemed officially complete, and the captains handed out dried apples, pepper, and extra flour for the next day's meal and celebration. Just before Christmas dawn, the captains were awakened by the men, all if them, Clark noted, "merrily disposed." ************ December 25th, 1804. We ushed [in] the morning with a discharge of the Swivvel [gun], and one round of Small arms of all the party. Then another from the Swivvel. Then Capt. Clark presented a glass of brandy to each man of the party. We hoisted the american flag, and each man had another Glass of brandy. The men prepared one of the rooms and commenced dancing. At 10 o'c [lock] we had another Glass of brandy, at one a gun was fired as a Signal for diner. Half past two another gun was fired to assemble at the dance, and So we kept it up in a jov[ia]l manner untill eight o'c[lock] at night, all without the company of the female Seck [sex]. Joseph Whitehouse The mandans were asked not to visit the fort on Christmas because, the captains explained, it was a "great medicine" day for the expedition. But on New Year's, the men celebrated with their Indian hosts. ************ January 1st, 1806. Our repast of this day, tho' better than that of Cristmass, consisted principally in the anticipation of the 1st day of January 1807, when in the bosom of our friends we hope to participate in the mirth and hilarity of the day, and when with the zest given by the recollection of the present, we shall completely, both mentally and corporally, enjoy the repast which the hand of civilization has prepared for us. MERIWETHER LEWIS Men were put to work making candles, boiling ocean water for salt, preserving elk meat in a smokehouse, and sewing clothes from elk hides for the return trip home. Clark labored over a new map that would replace eastern speculation with the hard facts of western geography. Lewis wrote page after page of descriptions of animals and plants unknown to science-from the giant sitka spruce tree to the evergreen huckleberry; from ring-necked ducks and whistling swans to small smelt-the candlefish-that the men roasted and ate whole. For a new year it seems things are well with our early travelers, fed and full of thoughts of returning home. In the next life may we experience such an adventure, and may God see us fit enough to handle the chore. The Conner's dba/ Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ ************ Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html _________________________________ Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: The Sweeneys Subject: MtMan-List: Packs Date: 05 Dec 1999 16:28:24 +0000 Hello List, Being a horse poor mountaineer that travels by foot and occasionally by canoe, can anyone tell me what type of pack was most common for during the 1820-1840 era. All the info I can find on packs refer to the type used during the French and Indian War, were these still being used? Any info would be greatly appreciated. See you down the trail. Mick ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: MtMan-List: AUCTION Date: 05 Dec 1999 21:32:20 -0500 Once agin, Pardon the intrusion, this is my last.. The AMM AUCTION closes in 1/2 hr. (10 P.M E.S.T.) Thai is the time to slide that last minute bid in... www.wesnet.com/deforge1/Auction.htm Thanks D -- "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Laura Glise" Subject: MtMan-List: Trappers/Traders Date: 05 Dec 1999 21:59:48 -0500 I agree about the inclusion of traders, and I also agree that most of their lives were pale in comparison with the lives of trappers. Lanney loaned me his copy of Fur traders, trappers, and mountain men of the Upper Missouri/edited by LeRoy R. Hafen, introduction to the Bison edition by Scott Eckberg. I enjoyed reading about Frances Ermatinger's style, and have followed his footsteps in Oregon and visited the home that Chief Factor McLoughlin built for him in Oregon City. I also enjoyed reading about David Dawson Mitchell. Do you know he got the $1,000 he needed for supplies for his men by escorting a wealthy senora to a ball? Perks the imagination doesn't it? Kenneth McKenzie of the American Fur Company, Head of the Upper Missouri outfit's hospitality of serving iced wine in buckets to his guests. And, I know Dennis Miles will enjoy this one - William Laidlaw, described by Audubon as a "true Scot and apparently a clean one." Laura Glise Wind1838@aol.com Access your e-mail anywhere, at any time. Get your FREE BellSouth Web Mail account today! http://webmail.bellsouth.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT relevant but OT Date: 05 Dec 1999 19:39:57 -0500 john cramer---your posting was outstanding---concure with mr crocket---I hope that doesnt make me a radical but I gave a total of 34 years to this country in the military both in the active and reserves and crockets story really hit home especially since I spent 6 years in washington dc in the pentigon---nuff said thanks for such a good historical posting ---i am in the process of forwarding it to my congressman and other parties who should appreciate it--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to get Web access? Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT relevant but OT Date: 06 Dec 1999 00:32:17 -0600 Hawk, Thanks for your comments but it is Mr. Crockett and Mr. Bunce who's words= are deserving of praise.=A0 Certainly a view of the Constitution popularly= poo-pooed by every good intention.=A0 Plain thinking and common sense; whatever= happened? Bye the bye, since we're OT; I've been using that Turkey call you made; finally.=A0 Works good - nice size; it's handy in a pouch.=A0 Been chatting= a few long beard birds up; ain't got one in range, in season --- yet.=A0 Nice, the broad range of tones, yelps and chatter you can coax out of it.=20 It talks turkey.=20 A term that meant something to Mr. Crockett and Mr. Bunce. Principled men. John... At 07:39 PM 12/5/99 -0500, you wrote: >john cramer---your posting was outstanding---concure with mr crocket---I >hope that doesnt make me a radical but I gave a total of 34 years to this >country in the military both in the active and reserves and crockets >story really hit home especially since I spent 6 years in washington dc >in the pentigon---nuff said thanks for such a good historical posting >---i am in the process of forwarding it to my congressman and other >parties who should appreciate it--- >=A0=A0=A0 "HAWK" Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: talking turkey Date: 06 Dec 1999 09:33:31 -0800 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, December 05, 1999 10:32 PM The mention of turkey call. While squirrel hunting in Southeast Ohio "turkey not in season" and setting under a tree, I heard a turkey off in a distance. The bird was coming my way. I patiently waited. Closer, closer it came. Around a bend in the path came a nice looking tom. It was still coming towards me. The tom stopped and turned to look sideways and then I gave a cluck with my turkey call. I`m not sure what I said, but you could see the dirt fly as the ole tom left the area. I thought I was good at useing a turkey call. While at work and playing with my turkey call I call in several of my coworkers. No hesitation on their part they just came straight in. My mistake, I guessed a turkey was a turkey. Forgot to take inconsideration domesticated and wild. Although some of these domestic one talk as if they are wild. (GGGGGGGGG) (VBGGGGGGG) > > Bye the bye, since we're OT; I've been using that Turkey call you made; > finally. Works good - nice size; it's handy in a pouch. Been chatting a few > long beard birds up; ain't got one in range, in season --- yet. Nice, the > broad range of tones, yelps and chatter you can coax out of it. > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: MtMan-List: OT-Cross Canada Solo Kayak Trip Date: 06 Dec 1999 09:48:21 -0600 Although this is a modern adventure, I thought some of you might be interested. Jim >Ilya Klvana, a wildlife biology student at McGill University, completed >his cross-Canada solo kayak journey on November 26. Starting in mid May >in Prince Rupert, BC in his hand made kayak, Ilya crosed continental >divides, snowfields, 135 portages and turned 21 along the way. His >daily journals and many photographs from the trip are available at >http://www.mcgill.ca/kayak/ >Congratulations Ilya!! We're proud to be one of your sponsers. >-- > For the most comfortable way that you can carry your canoe > or kayak and gear, check out http://www.knupac.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sickler, Louis L" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Packs Date: 06 Dec 1999 08:56:35 -0700 Mick, Here is a compilation of what was on this list a while back..................... Allen, I have experimented with many different styles of carrying way too much stuff. I have found several methods which work well. Depending on length, type of trek, etc... some work better than others. On a 1-2 day trip a simple haversack works well. I become annoyed at too many straps criss-crossing my body. Canteen, haversack, shooting pouch, powder horn, bed roll strap...TOO many darned straps. I use a belt pouch for shooting bag. I can carry a small powder horn in it. If I'm carrying a comfortable camp I use a back pack ,with bed roll tied on top of it. Recently I have made myself a set of saddle bags, with matching pommel bags. I made it so the pommel bags tie to the saddle bags. I like this arrangement as it gives me two larger bags, and two smaller bags- all in one unit. I don't have a horse, so I carry them over my shoulder. At a walk in event I carry this set over one shoulder, and my bedroll strap over the other shoulder. Pistol, axe, knife, pouch are all on my belt. Longer gun is in my mitts. Tom Nichols , in Ca., makes a neat rawhide box back pack. I have one of them and it works quite well. It is a 19" x 12" x 8" rawhide box with shoulder straps. The hair is left on against your back. My favorite is the saddle bags, because it's easier to organize ones gear with the 4 different bags. I'm interested in hearing of others set ups.... Hardtack =========================== Allen, when it comes to carrying my equipment, I always seem to be changing what I use. If going on a short walk into a camp or a rendezvous, a cloth pannier set up (one piece) is used with smaller bags in it. My bedroll is always separate. I agree with most, a horse makes the carrying easy- but then you need to take care of the horse. When in a hiking mode, two haversacks are used. One for the food/ cooking items, one for changes of clothes (sox/ maybe extra shirt/ stocking hat and misc. needs).I find that the haversacks are close to what is called the "possible bags" and they do expand if needed. =================================== Allen, I forgot to mention that my pack is 14" wide x 17" tall x 4" deep. This is my second one, first was even bigger. Made it with a heavy hemp canvas as I felt it was more authentic than cotton canvas. Bottom of the pack is completely reinforced with a piece of leather extending an inch up the front and back. Strap attachments are reinforced on the top with a piece of leather on the inside of the pack. After construction I waterproofed it with a mixture of boiled linseed oil and powdered paint in a burnt sienna color. The bag is slightly stiff, but completely impervious to rain and snow. I made sure the linseed oil was neutralized before using by boiling it with some limestone added, then testing it with ph testing strips. Todd Glover ================================================ As to "tote'n that bale", I have run the gamut from pack basket to bedroll. In-between I've used simple rucksacks and back boards with a pack attached. They all seem to have their good points and short comings. Some things I've learned the hard way and others I've learned from listening to others (and I'm still listening) but for my money....... The bottom line for me is simply that I do not have regular access to a horse or pack animal. So whether the NW Co. boys or HBC lackeys or Rocky Mt. Company hired hands or even the few free trappers, had horses to carry their gear or not, I don't! So given my physical infirmities (Old Age plus dissipation and abuse) and my need to hump my camp on my back, I am for working on a lighter and lighter load. The bigger my carrying container is, the more junk I can carry and the closer to the road I camp. That's not what this is supposed to be about so I eliminated the pack basket early on as being clumsy and capable of carrying too much stuff. One of my camp mates, Crawdad, carries one and we let him cause he always brings in a big roast marinated in some secret sauce stored in a pot in his pack basket. He is a good sharer too. Now that Lee fella is a strong young man and can get away with carrying half the contents of his garage. I can't (He'll break down eventually ). Next I tried the back board with attached pack bag. That works fairly well and I still use it if the load is needing to be on the heavy side (because of the need for another blanket or whatever). It is made of cedar uprights and oak cross bucks all rawhided together with wide leather shoulder straps. It has canvas bands across at the top and bottom to keep the wood parts off my back. It is fairly comfortable to carry. I also have a rucksack/knapsack with attached shoulder straps made very similar to what Teton Todd describes. It's made of heavy linen canvas, waterproofed with bee's wax and about 14" wide by 16" tall give or take. It is not gusseted so it is a simple envelope with a button down flap and strengthened like Teton's with leather across the bottom and top back. At the moment it resides on the pack frame. It can be removed and used as a rucksack and has been but I found that carrying things like a rolled up blanket, coat and what have you made the load somewhat clumsy and it works better with a heavy load if it is mounted on the pack frame. By itself it makes a great day pack and with warm weather camps and just the one blanket it works fine. Any heavier load and it goes back on the pack frame. I agree with that aspect of Hardtacks offering. Pack frames are the most comfortable for fairly heavy loads. Much more so than the pack basket. I also have a haversack with one cross body strap that I am trying to go through and lighten up as to it's normal contents. It is close to the same size as the ruck sack but wider than tall and otherwise made the same of the same materials. It seems to work good by itself as a day pack and this fall I used it with a separate bed roll slung to the same shoulder with some success going into our fall hunting camp (hopefully the site of the AMM 2000 Western). I didn't find that arraignment as troublesome as I have heard it to be. Using the bed roll and single cross body strap to carry my food sack, pots, extra mocs, wool tam and little else, rolling it long and tight and belting the shoulder strap to each end made it ride across my back without the expected tendency to slide around in front. I wore the haversack on the same shoulder but let it hang on the side rather than in back. I carried a canteen on that same side and my shooting pouch and horn on the other side. My belt contained my camp hatchet, knife, waterproof fire kit, and camera. I walked with Tulle in hand. It wasn't an unworkable load. I don't carry a pistol because I find them to be too heavy for the utility they offer. Incidentally I load myself in the reverse order of stuff I can get along without and still survive. So first I put on the belt with it's stuff, then the pouch and horn and I like a standard sized neck knife under everything and tucked in my shirt front. Then I put on the haversack, the canteen and finally the bedroll or back pack or rucksack. If I need to shed stuff in a hurry, I can flip off down to the bare minimum fairly quick. I am presently carrying some parched corn/jerky and some small items like an extra fire kit and meds in my haversack. There are still some things in my whole outfit that need a second and third look at to see if I really need them. But though I have been doing this for quit a few years I am coming to the realization that my enjoyment of this activity is not measured by how many "toys" I can get into camp but how easily "I" can make it into camp. That means leaving lots of "toys" at home and just carrying the necessities. Things change when I get to use the bateau, sled or am unbelievably lucky enough to find a horse wandering around that will let me catch and pack it. So for what it's worth, that's the way I do it. I know that historically our idols had horses to pack their stuff. And I am aware that there is a dearth of references to "packs" of any kind. Most of us aren't mounted. There is no sense, as far as I can see, in pretending that I am a Mt. Man looking for my horse and carrying all the stuff that a regularly mounted person would carry "in case I find my horse". I'm afoot and likely to remain so. Perhaps I'm not a full fledged Rocky Mt. Trapper because of that. But I do like playing this game and I do like camping with my friends and if that means adapting the ways of another group of frontiersmen (read long hunter) then that is what I will have to do. The ranks of the Rocky Mt. Fur Trapper were filled with former eastern frontiersmen and such folks were in the Rockies perhaps even before Lewis and Clark. Sorry for the editorial. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ============================ In Muzzleloader Magazine, May/June 1996 is pictured an oil painting by A.J. Miller showing two trappers, one with a knapsack with shoulder straps and his blanket tied on top. In the next issue, on page 38, a reader speculated that the pack may have been a military item or copy of one, since it was like their 1830's dragoon regiment packs. One story of a mountaineer carrying a pack was written by Henry Brackenridge who heard it from Manuel Lisa...." This man[John Colter] with a pack of 30 pounds weight, his gun and some ammunition, went upwards of 500 miles to the Crow nation" JILL ======================================================== Hope this helps. Lou Sickler Colorado Territory > -----Original Message----- > From: The Sweeneys [SMTP:angus@lostsierra.net] > Sent: Sunday, December 05, 1999 9:28 AM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Packs > > Hello List, > > Being a horse poor mountaineer that travels by foot and occasionally by > canoe, can anyone tell me what type of pack was most common for during > the > 1820-1840 era. All the info I can find on packs refer to the type used > during the French and Indian War, were these still being used? Any info > would be greatly appreciated. See you down the trail. > Mick > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Packs Date: 06 Dec 1999 08:04:34 -0800 On Sun, 05 December 1999, The Sweeneys wrote: > > Hello List, > > Being a horse poor mountaineer that travels by foot and occasionally by > canoe, can anyone tell me what type of pack was most common for during the > 1820-1840 era. All the info I can find on packs refer to the type used > during the French and Indian War, were these still being used? Any info > would be greatly appreciated. See you down the trail. > Mick MICK, MANY WILL QUOTE THE DIFFERENT TYPES OF BACKPACKS, HAVERSACKS, PACK BASKETS, SADDLE BAGS, ETC. (ACCORDING TO LAST SIMILAR QUESTION ON THE SAME). THE ONE ITEM NOT MENTIONED BEFORE AND ONE I HAVE FOUND WORKS VERY NICE WHETHER ON HORSE, OR WATER VESSIL IS A PORT-MAN-TOU (EXCUSE THE SPELLING). WITH THIS UNIT AND A BEDROLL I CAN CARRY EVERYTHING OTHER THAN SHOOTING BAG, CANTEEN AND SMALL HAVERSACK WITH DAY RATIONS - ALL OF WHICH ARE HUNG FROM THE SHOULDERS IN A CROSSED ARRANGEMENT. BOTH THE BEDROLL AND THE PORT-MAN-TOU LAY SIDE BY SIDE EQUALLING THE LOAD IN A CANOE, PLUS THE MAN-TOU IS EASY TO RETRIEVE ITEMS FROM. FOR SHORT DISTANCES IT'S NOT BAD TO CARRY BEDROLL ON ONE SHOULDER AND THE PORT-MAN-TOU ON THE OTHER WHEN MOVING INTO A CAMP WITHIN A 1/2 MILE OR SO FROM IRON MULE. OTHERWISE I USE A PAIR OF LARGER HAVERSACKS WITH BEDROLL ROLLED AND TIED ENDS TOGETHER TO BE CARRIED OVER SHOULDER LEAVING HANDS FREE FOR RIFLE, ETC. Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html _________________________________ Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: talking turkey Date: 06 Dec 1999 06:48:51 -0500 JOHN--- sounds like you got them real tree turkeys at the office-(GBG)--you should have made a purr or a feeding call---(best guess) the yelp will make them hit the road almost ever time---any light sound would also probably been ok------not good in a tight turkey situation one thing also if the turkey spotted you they will not be long for the world and out of the area---real spooky at times---fast movement will put them in the air and off to no mans land--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to get Web access? Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Subject: MtMan-List: A book review / a must have book. Date: 07 Dec 1999 07:06:01 -0800 Members, Over the last few years we have seen a few members author several books, tapes, etc. of which have been interviewed from time to time. We have a few of these folks still with us and several have moved on to other lists for one reason or another. One gentleman that is a regular on the Hist_list with wonderful references, great documented information and so on - is Dr. John L. Allen. John is a student of Lewis & Clark and has traveled in their footsteps in an attempt to experience these gentlemen's lives and the lives of the Corps of Discovery members, as has several of us done over the years. Dr. Allen wrote a book about these gentlemen and their adventure, yet I have never seen anything about this great resource book, well written, with 47 maps and a wealth of information on this event. This is a "must" have book for any reenacter's library that's involved in the development of land west of the Mississippi, western travel, the fur trade or westward movement. The name of this book is: "LEWIS AND CLARK AND THE IMAGE OF THE AMERICAN NORTHWEST" by John Logan Allen. Dover Publications, Inc., New York # 0-486-26914-0 (pbk.) Originally published in 1975 and now the Dover edition, published 1991 is a gem that I, myself have over looked for some unknown reason, now found and feel that you too, should be made aware of this important information and guide that follows these captains across this great country. This book focuses on Lewis and Clark's epic journey of 1804-1806, following the expedition over the Rocky Mountains to the coast with information on the maps, plants, wildlife, etc. - wait until you see the detail on these maps. This would be a great Christmas present, pick one up for that special person or for yourself (that's a must do). John have you written anything else, I hope this wasn't the only one, brother you did an excellent piece of work. I started reading your book last night and had to be told to go to bed (like a kid), hope this short review is with your approval, you should be very proud of this, I'm proud we the folks on this list know you through this list. Thank you for making my day, this is great reading. Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html _________________________________ Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: MtMan-List: Buckskinner? Date: 07 Dec 1999 09:20:28 -0600 Here are a couple of replies from soc.history.living, I replied to someone wondering what a Buckskinner was and got the second reply, thought you might find it humerous. Jim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John L. Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A book review / a must have book. Date: 07 Dec 1999 11:25:42 -0500 Thanks for the kind words, Buck. Your recommendation and review made MY day. And yes, I've written a bunch of other stuff--but most of it consists of fairly dry articles in professional journals, along with some textbooks and atlases designed for college students. One thing that might be of interest is a 3-volume work on North American Exploration (University of Nebraska Press,1997) that covers exploration from the first Norse contacts around 1000 AD down to the end of the 19th century. The third volume contains two lengthy chapters on the explorations of the Canadian and American fur trade in the 19th century. I'm now in the finishing stages of a book on the explorations of the Rocky Mountain fur trade from 1806 to 1845 (beginning with John Colter and concluding with the travels of John Charles Fremont, the "Pathfinder" who was guided by former members of the fur trade). This is a logical "sequel" to the Lewis and Clark book and will use pretty much the same techniques for examining the mountain men's knowledge of western geography of the West, what kinds of maps they made, and how their geographical information got passed on to other Americans by the middle of the 1800s. Conventional historical "wisdom" is that the mountain men didn't impart much formal information. I disagree with that and have located a considerable number of published maps and descriptive essays in geography books, travel narratives, newspapers, magazines, government documents, etc. from the first half of the 1800s that relied heavily on information from mountain men. Hopefully, the book will go to the publisher this coming spring and will be available about a year after that. I'll keep the list posted on this since this is a book that will be directly of interest to most of you. Thanks again for your review. John Dr. John L. Allen 21 Thomas Drive Storrs, CT 06268 860/487-1346 johnlallen@uconn.cted.net ----- Original Message ----- American_Mountain_Men Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 10:06 AM > Members, > > Over the last few years we have seen a few members author several books, tapes, etc. of which have been interviewed from time to time. We have a few of these folks still with us and several have moved on to other lists for one reason or another. > > One gentleman that is a regular on the Hist_list with wonderful references, great documented information and so on - is Dr. John L. Allen. John is a student of Lewis & Clark and has traveled in their footsteps in an attempt to experience these gentlemen's lives and the lives of the Corps of Discovery members, as has several of us done over the years. > > Dr. Allen wrote a book about these gentlemen and their adventure, yet I have never seen anything about this great resource book, well written, with 47 maps and a wealth of information on this event. This is a "must" have book for any reenacter's library that's involved in the development of land west of the Mississippi, western travel, the fur trade or westward movement. > > The name of this book is: > "LEWIS AND CLARK AND THE IMAGE OF THE AMERICAN NORTHWEST" by John Logan Allen. > Dover Publications, Inc., New York # 0-486-26914-0 (pbk.) > > Originally published in 1975 and now the Dover edition, published 1991 is a gem that I, myself have over looked for some unknown reason, now found and feel that you too, should be made aware of this important information and guide that follows these captains across this great country. > > This book focuses on Lewis and Clark's epic journey of 1804-1806, following the expedition over the Rocky Mountains to the coast with information on the maps, plants, wildlife, etc. - wait until you see the detail on these maps. > > This would be a great Christmas present, pick one up for that special person or for yourself (that's a must do). > > John have you written anything else, I hope this wasn't the only one, brother you did an excellent piece of work. I started reading your book last night and had to be told to go to bed (like a kid), hope this short review is with your approval, you should be very proud of this, I'm proud we the folks on this list know you through this list. > > Thank you for making my day, this is great reading. > > Later, > Buck Conner > _________________________________ > Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html > Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ > AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html > _________________________________ > Aux Ailments de Pays! > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Huss931@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A book review / a must have book. Date: 07 Dec 1999 12:11:31 EST Dear John and Buck, I am glad to see your interest in books about mountain men. I am going to look for your book, John. I am looking forward to the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade book. I just finished a novel on Robert Campbell : Irish Mountain Man: The Story of Robert Campbell. It will be available in January. I hope you will look at him when you are working on the fur trade at that time. I wrote his biography for my Ph.D. dissertation-- and I have tried to make it readable for the general public and keep honest with the history. His journals ran into the hundreds of pages and I have had access to over of his personal 300 letters. Campbell and Sublette really kept the small fur trapper in business and helped them obtain a fair price for their goods when others (like Chouteau) tried to take advantage of them. It's interesting to know that Jim Bridger did not trust banks-- he had Campbell take care of all his finances! Campbell understood the code of the mountain man and kept true to his friends-- mountain men and Indians-- all his life. It was really refreshing to find such a man in history. Good luck. Keep me informed as to where I can get your book when it is finished. I am developing a course on the American West for the college where I teach. Stephen Huss (Huss931@aol.com) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Packs Date: 07 Dec 1999 09:38:06 +0000 The Sweeneys wrote: >=20 > Hello List, >=20 > Being a horse poor mountaineer that travels by foot and occasionally= by > canoe, can anyone tell me what type of pack was most common for during= the > 1820-1840 era. Brothers, I passed along to some of my companions what we have already contributed to this discussion and these are a couple of the answers I received. I think you may find them of interest and worthy of further discussion. I remain...... YMOS Capt. Lahti' First from Gary Lentz. Chief Clerk, Touche Valley Fur Co. and Ranger for Lewis and Clark State Park, Waitsburg, WA. "I recently did some research and communications with other L&C historians on this subject. I found that Captain Lewis ordered several cloth items that could be used for making packs. The packs, when carried on horseback, were usually affixed to a simple pack saddle made by Patrick Gass or one of his assistant carpenters. The pack saddles are similar to those still being made today using an double X arrangement that all sorts of bags, packs and other items could be affixed to. Scientific instruments were always carried in wooden cases purchased with them in Philadelphia. The cloth items that were purchased from Israel Whelen in Philadelphia on June 15, 1803, are interesting. They include 107 yards of 7/8 brown linen, 46 1/2 yards of 7/8 (Russia) Flanders sheeting, 10 yards of 7/8 Country Linen 3/ "To making the brown Linen into 8 tents, with eyelet holes, laps, etc., Thread, etc. " Of interest to the packer would be the purchase of "Russia Sheeting into 45 Bags. Thread & cord". All of the linen and sheeting, 150 yards, was oiled. The bags and tents were numbered as any good military expedition would do. Probably came in handy when trying to find specific items, also. Any bag that was carried in a keelboat, pirogue or canoe could also be carried on the pack saddle with some extra cordage. On a trip a few years ago I carried two 40 pound bales of supplies wrapped in two 5X14' pieces of 10 oz cotton canvas (Lewis used this size for shelter halves and ordered 40 yards of material to make them up) tied to a pack saddle. There is no doubt that the packs could have been much heavier. Lewis listed on his initial inventory of supplies needed that these pieces of material were not only for shelter halves but "connected at pleasure in order to answer the several purposes of Tents, covering to Boat or Canoe, or if necessary to be used as sails." No doubt while on the overland parts of the journey they could also be used as wrappings for other articles and fastened to a pack saddle. It is also interesting that Lewis ordered at least "2 Gross of Hooks & Eyes" along with his cloth purchases. We often hear re-enactors saying that pieces of linen from the period must not have such items but only had linen or webbing ties to be "authentic". I seem to remember seeing Revolutionary War era shelter halves that were made so that they could be put together with these items. For what its worth, consider this my addition to the dearth of information on the subject." G. Lentz Chf. Clrk. TVFCo - Secondly from Ron Petrie, Member of the Wilson Price Hunt Party, NW Brigade, AMM, presently posted in the Philippine IS. Cap'n Rog, "I enjoyed reading the pack information and thought I would add the following; I have a book ( a collection of American fiction from Harpers Magazine) that has a painting reproduced on the jacket that is not identified other than to say that it is from the "Bridgeman Art Library". It is a scene of 3 men by a woodpile in front of a log cabin, circa 1840. 2 of the men are obviously settlers and the third appears to be just passing through and is swapping news. He is wearing a hunting frock and has a powder horn slung over his shoulder. His back action percussion rifle is laying against the log he is sitting on and next to it is shown his pack. It is a pillow case sized bag that appears to be coarse fabric (but could possibly be leather) that has shoulder straps attached. The strap is blue fabric about 1 =BD " wide and maybe 4 or 5 feet long, the center of it being tied around the neck of the bag and the ends are tied to the bottom corners. The bottom corners appear to have a pebble (or some such) inserted inside to prevent the strap from sliding off. What is not shown in the painting is any sort of bedroll or blanket, unless it is stuffed in the pack. There really are damn few period references to packs and even fewer of them depicted in period artwork, so I was quite interested to see this one. I made one of these up out of some coarse and sturdy linen. It works quite well (as long as the bag is loaded with soft items on the side that will be against your back) and will hold a fair amount of plunder. =20 I should probably reproduce the painting and send it in to the T&LR. Others might find it of interest as well." Ron Petrie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: Fwd: Re: MtMan-List: moccs Date: 07 Dec 1999 09:48:14 -0800 (PST) In the following; I found the term "Aphisamores" What Is he refering to ??? G.R.N. --- Mike Moore wrote: > Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 12:17:34 -0700 > From: Mike Moore > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccs > Reply-to: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > Lou- > Great input! No matter if the references agree > with me or not, that is how > we all learn. And even decide on what to wear, use > and put on. The Denver Art > Museum does have some Indian Mocs with thin rawhide > soles, a little later than > we portary, but still around. > I do agree that some times a hard sole is nice to > have, there have been camps > where it has taken a year or more to get all the > prickly pear needles out of the > mocs and not have the sox stay in the mocs when you > pull your foot out. I find > the side seam to be my favorite, all moc styles have > their pros and cons (hard > soles being they are so slippery in wet grass and > when wet all the way through). > And even the side seams take regular restiching to > redo the front stiches from > scuffing and dragging of the feet. > > mike. > Sickler, Louis L wrote: > > > Ho the list, > > > > Here are a few references I found regarding > rawhide soled moccasins, or even > > entire mocs being made of rawhide. I'm at work, > so I can't cite page > > numbers from hard copy books. These are on Dean > Rudy's web page, for your > > reading pleasure. > > > =================================== > > Ruxton's 'Wild Life in the Rocky Mountains > > > > Each tribe of Prairie Indians has a different > method of making moccasins, so > > that any one, acquainted with the various > fashions, is at no loss to know > > the nation to which any particular one belongs > whom he may happen to meet. > > The Arapahos and Cheyennes use a "shoe" moccasin, > that is, one which reaches > > no higher than the instep, and wants the upper > sideflaps which moccasins > > usually have. I always used Chippewa moccasins, > which differ from those of > > the Prairie make, by the seam being made up the > center of the foot to the > > leg, and puckered into plaits. This, which is the > true fashion of the > > "Forest Indian," (who, by the by, is as distinct > in character and appearance > > from him of the "plains" as a bear from a > blue-bottle) attracted the > > attention of the Arapaho warriors, and caused a > lively discussion amongst > > themselves, owing to the novelty of the > manufacture. They all surrounded me, > > and each examined and felt carefully the unusual > chaussure. > > > > Towards the latter end of April green grass began > to show itself in the > > bottoms, and -myself and two others, who had been > wintering in the mountains > > for the benefit of their health, made preparations > for our departure to the > > United States. Pack-saddles were inspected and > repaired, apishamores made, > > lariats and lassos greased and stretched, mules > and horses collected from > ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: MtMan-List: moccs Date: 07 Dec 1999 10:43:24 +0000 George Noe wrote: > > In the following; I found the term "Aphisamores" > What Is he refering to ??? George, Not claiming to be a horse person but I believe the term describes the blanket or blankets that are used under the saddle to protect the horse's back. Osborne Russell mentions laying a couple of them on the ground and rolling up in his blanket next to a good fire to make it through a very cold night. I think he spelled it differently with an "e" as in "epishamor". I can't find it in his journal, (which I just got through reading) my dictionary or the pc's dictionary so I am not sure how it is spelled. Buy I am pretty sure it is a saddle blanket. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: MtMan-List: aphisamores Date: 07 Dec 1999 16:40:35 -0700 Asphismores are saddle blankets. But they also were fur on hides folded two ways to fit under the saddle. The most common way I read about to fold these were make it in thirds (both ways). It is harder to describe than do. Take the hide or blanket and fold it long ways so that a third of the blanket covers the middle section from both sides. Now take the upper third and fold it over the middle section and then the lower third. Some times you have adjust it to work better under the saddle. This sometimes is too tall to work properly. Since it can cause the saddle to slip because of the height. But a thin, small hide works well like that. R Lahti wrote: > George Noe wrote: > > > > In the following; I found the term "Aphisamores" > > What Is he refering to ??? > > George, > > Not claiming to be a horse person but I believe the term describes the > blanket or blankets that are used under the saddle to protect the > horse's back. Osborne Russell mentions laying a couple of them on the > ground and rolling up in his blanket next to a good fire to make it > through a very cold night. I think he spelled it differently with an "e" > as in "epishamor". I can't find it in his journal, (which I just got > through reading) my dictionary or the pc's dictionary so I am not sure > how it is spelled. Buy I am pretty sure it is a saddle blanket. I > remain..... > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Farseer Subject: RE: Fwd: Re: MtMan-List: moccs Date: 07 Dec 1999 18:36:10 -0600 I've heard the term "epishmore" used to describe a horse blanket as well, but as to the spelling? Can't help there. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of R Lahti > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 4:43 AM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: MtMan-List: moccs > > > George Noe wrote: > > > > In the following; I found the term "Aphisamores" > > What Is he refering to ??? > > George, > > Not claiming to be a horse person but I believe the term describes the > blanket or blankets that are used under the saddle to protect the > horse's back. Osborne Russell mentions laying a couple of them on the > ground and rolling up in his blanket next to a good fire to make it > through a very cold night. I think he spelled it differently with an "e" > as in "epishamor". I can't find it in his journal, (which I just got > through reading) my dictionary or the pc's dictionary so I am not sure > how it is spelled. Buy I am pretty sure it is a saddle blanket. I > remain..... > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DickSummers@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moccs Date: 07 Dec 1999 21:02:21 EST George: If you're looking for something interesting to read and print out to save, go to the Drudy website and look up terms and definitions compiled by Mr. Walt Hayward and another gentleman whose name I can't recall. You'll find a concise and enjoyable dictionary of the era we all respect. Dick Summers ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Smith Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: A book review / a must have book.] Date: 07 Dec 1999 21:44:35 EST Thanks Buck for the review, sounds like Santa will be bringing me another= gift, and thank you John for your comments, looks like I will have to go = to the book store this weekend. If you have to stay in when the weather is b= ad, why not read something worthwhile like Buck has mentioned and then add to= the library with that set of books John has told us about, can wait for the n= ew one. Later Concho Smith Locks Bank, PA. "John L. Allen" wrote: Thanks for the kind words, Buck. Your recommendation and review made MY d= ay. And yes, I've written a bunch of other stuff--but most of it consists of fairly dry articles in professional journals, along with some textbooks a= nd atlases designed for college students. One thing that might be of interest is a 3-volume work on North American Exploration (University of Nebraska Press,1997) that covers exploration f= rom the first Norse contacts around 1000 AD down to the end of the 19th centu= ry. The third volume contains two lengthy chapters on the explorations of the= Canadian and American fur trade in the 19th century. I'm now in the finishing stages of a book on the explorations of the Rock= y Mountain fur trade from 1806 to 1845 (beginning with John Colter and concluding with the travels of John Charles Fremont, the "Pathfinder" who= was guided by former members of the fur trade). This is a logical "sequel= " to the Lewis and Clark book and will use pretty much the same techniques = for examining the mountain men's knowledge of western geography of the West, what kinds of maps they made, and how their geographical information got passed on to other Americans by the middle of the 1800s. Conventional historical "wisdom" is that the mountain men didn't impart much formal information. I disagree with that and have located a considerable number = of published maps and descriptive essays in geography books, travel narrativ= es, newspapers, magazines, government documents, etc. from the first half of = the 1800s that relied heavily on information from mountain men. Hopefully, th= e book will go to the publisher this coming spring and will be available ab= out a year after that. I'll keep the list posted on this since this is a book that will be direc= tly of interest to most of you. Thanks again for your review. John Dr. John L. Allen 21 Thomas Drive Storrs, CT 06268 860/487-1346 johnlallen@uconn.cted.net ----- Original Message ----- American_Mountain_Men Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 10:06 AM > Members, > > Over the last few years we have seen a few members author several books= , tapes, etc. of which have been interviewed from time to time. We have a = few of these folks still with us and several have moved on to other lists for= one reason or another. > > One gentleman that is a regular on the Hist_list with wonderful references, great documented information and so on - is Dr. John L. Allen= =2E John is a student of Lewis & Clark and has traveled in their footsteps in= an attempt to experience these gentlemen's lives and the lives of the Corps = of Discovery members, as has several of us done over the years. > > Dr. Allen wrote a book about these gentlemen and their adventure, yet I= have never seen anything about this great resource book, well written, wi= th 47 maps and a wealth of information on this event. This is a "must" have= book for any reenacter's library that's involved in the development of la= nd west of the Mississippi, western travel, the fur trade or westward moveme= nt. > > The name of this book is: > "LEWIS AND CLARK AND THE IMAGE OF THE AMERICAN NORTHWEST" by John Loga= n Allen. > Dover Publications, Inc., New York # 0-486-26914-0 (pbk.) > > Originally published in 1975 and now the Dover edition, published 1991 = is a gem that I, myself have over looked for some unknown reason, now found = and feel that you too, should be made aware of this important information and= guide that follows these captains across this great country. > > This book focuses on Lewis and Clark's epic journey of 1804-1806, following the expedition over the Rocky Mountains to the coast with information on the maps, plants, wildlife, etc. - wait until you see the detail on these maps. > > This would be a great Christmas present, pick one up for that special person or for yourself (that's a must do). > > John have you written anything else, I hope this wasn't the only one, brother you did an excellent piece of work. I started reading your book l= ast night and had to be told to go to bed (like a kid), hope this short revie= w is with your approval, you should be very proud of this, I'm proud we the= folks on this list know you through this list. > > Thank you for making my day, this is great reading. > > Later, > Buck Conner > _________________________________ > Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html > Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ > AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html > _________________________________ > Aux Ailments de Pays! > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.ne= t > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html= > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm= ail.netscape.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Smith Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Anyone make meat with their muzzleloader ?]] Date: 07 Dec 1999 21:51:39 EST I wonder why you didn't get a response to the "Silver Haired Gentleman" c= rack or "old coot" slamp Dennis, he must have missed them but that's OK. --- "= I'm tellin'" --- . You do any good with Mrs. Jager in PA ?? Later Concho Smith Locks Bank, PA. deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) wrote: Concho Wrote: Why didn't you mention this at Thanksgiving when I was at your place,apparently more than one turkey at the table, right Dennis M. ? >>Concho, as much as I would like to chime in on this, I won't.. You see,= Buck is patiently waiting for a knife, and I don't wanna rile the ol' coot.. If you catch m= y drift.. D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm= ail.netscape.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: MtMan-List: Winter Mocs Date: 07 Dec 1999 20:37:50 -0700 Hello the List, And now another question, What do you use for Winter moccasins? I have 2 sets I use. The first is a set of side seams from vegetable tanned hide, just below knee height. I use wool liners, also cut in a side seam style, with an extra layer of wool blanketing under the sole. I've used these for about 4 years now, with great results. They've been in -15 degree weather and still served well. Finally this fall I added 2 more layers of wool blanketing under the sole, as the originals got packed down from much use. My other set is hair-in buffalo. They are wonderful, and I mainly use them for sleeping in during really cold weather. Looking forward to your replies, Allen Hall in Fort Hall country Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: Moccasin & Foot (Arch Support?) Date: 07 Dec 1999 22:35:54 -0500 (EST) Would appreciate hearing modern and ancient camp's experiences (non-Indian trapper and/or American Indian). How do the arches hold up? knee strain? Did they make their own from a small piece of bunched-up sock wool sewn to buckskin? from Michigan Territory ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ron Chamberlain" Subject: MtMan-List: OT U.N. coming for your guns Date: 07 Dec 1999 20:47:12 -0700 U.N. coming for your guns Private groups, governments team up to restrict use, ownership of firearms http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_exnews/19991207_xex_un_coming_yo.shtml cstmzd@ida.net Lewis Fork Free Trappers www.ida.net/users/cstmzd/trappers.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Winter Mocs Date: 07 Dec 1999 19:57:35 +0000 Allen Hall wrote: > > Hello the List, > > And now another question, > > What do you use for Winter moccasins? Allen, I have one pair of brain tanned elk in the pucker toe style with a leather and trade wool insert in the vamp. They come up about 8" or so and wrap part way. I wear wool socks inside blanket booties made like the pack liners with two layers of blanket on the bottom and one on the sides. I haven't experienced as cold a weather as you but they seem to do a good job of keeping my feet warm and dry. I put an extra layer of leather on the bottoms for wearability. Jon writes: Would appreciate hearing modern and ancient camp's experiences (non Indian trapper and/or American Indian). How do the arches hold up? knee strain? Did they make their own from a small piece of bunched-up sock wool sewn to buckskin? from Michigan Territory Jon, I don't think that was a consideration or a problem. Man evolved to walk without arch supports, many aboriginal peoples don't use arch supports and we probably do only because we walk on hard flat surfaces and eat way too many biscuits with butter and honey on them. I am up to 250 and after a couple days don't have any foot problems (arch). I make my mocs with enough leather on the bottom to ignore the rocks pretty much and so never get tender feet. I guess if a fella has a foot problem that keeps him from wearing moc's the answer is an unobtrusive insert with arch support. No one is going to know and I sure as hell don't care. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rick_williams@byu.edu Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Packs Date: 08 Dec 1999 16:48:19 +0000 On page 74 of Donald Jackson's Letters of the Lewis and Clark Expedition, is a list of items that Lewis thought would be essential for the expedition. Here he states wanting "Materials for making up various articles into portable packs 30 sheepskins taken off the animal whole without being split on the belly and dress'd only with lime to free them from the wool; or otherwise about the same quantity of Oil Cloth bags well painted" (Rawhide bags or painted oil cloth) "Raw Hide for pack strings" "Dress'd letter(leather) for Hoppus-Straps" "Other packing" (Parens mine) Jackson desribes the 'hoppus' straps may have been 'hoppas' an indian term for knapsack He also lists awls, saddler needles and theread as being taken later on page 90 we see a paid invoice for "107 yds of 7/8 brown linen 461/2 yds of 7/8 (Russia) Flanders Sheeting 10 yds 7/8 Country linen To making the brown linen into 8 tents, with Eyelet-holes, laps, &c. Thread &c. To making the Russia Sheeting into 45 Bags. Thread & Cord. 2 Gross of Hooks & Eyes Oiling of all the linen & sheeting numbering all the bags & Tents" I've speculated that the Russia sheeting must have been heavier than the brown linen else why would he not have it all made of the same matierial. I've also wondered about the 7/8. Again I've speculated that this was the width of loom woven cloth or 7/8 of a yard wide or 31.5 inches wide. A fairly standard width of cloth at the time. and two widths sewn together would be about 5 feet. Dividing the yardage up by the 8 tents would give you 40.125 feet per tent, which when two are sewn together is 2 5 by 10 ft sections held together with hook and eyes. (About the size of most diamond flies). One thing I don't understand is shy the Eyelet-holes? I always saw hook and eyes as external sewn on attachments. Any ideas? Also there is no mention of his receiving his "rawhide casings" just the Russsia sheeting bags. Regards Rick ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sickler, Louis L" Subject: MtMan-List: 1831 Newspaper Date: 08 Dec 1999 11:24:43 -0700 Ho the list, This on e-bay right now! Look under American Fur Company They're asking $10.00 now, auction closes in 5 days. NEW YORK AMERICAN, Aug.5, 1831. Short back page report FROM MISSOURI - The Steamboat Yellowstone arrives at St. Louis, from her trip up the Missouri - THE YELLOWSTONE IS OWNED BY THE AMERICAN FUR COMPANY, and left this place (St. Louis) on the 15th of April last, for the purpose of proceedings as far up as the mouth of the Yellowstone--2000 miles--CARRYING GOODS FOR THE INDIAN TRADE with which the Company annually supplies the traders in its employ--owing, however, to the low stage of the water in the Missouri, the Yellowstone was unable to proceed beyond Fort Tecumsch, the mouth of the little Missouri, 1,300 miles above St. Louis. Etc. THE YELLOWSTONE BRIUGHT DOWN A FULL CARGO OF BUFFALO ROBES, FURS AND PELTRIES, BESIDES 10,000 POUNDS OF BUFFALO TONOGUES. Report from Arkansas on the prospects of a war between the Osages and Pawnees. Complete 4 page issue in fine condition with foxing spots. Various edge tears, not touching the contents listed. Add $3.50 for postage. Check out my other newspaper auctions. This isn't in my realm of ability to purchase at the moment, but I thought one of you out there would like to have this true relic from our period. if not, sorry for wasting bandwidth. Lou Sickler Colorado Territory "Having been so long absent from the business of trapping and so much perplexed and harassed by the folly of the men in power, I returned again to the woods, the river, the prarie, the camp and the game with a feeling somewhat like that of a prisoner escaped from his dungeon and his chains." Jedediah Strong Smith ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Huss931@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1831 Newspaper Date: 08 Dec 1999 14:10:23 EST Thanks for the heads up on the newspaper article. I plan to bid on it! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Moccasin & Foot (Arch Support?) Date: 09 Dec 1999 00:40:58 -0700 At 10:35 PM 12/07/1999 -0500, you wrote: >Would appreciate hearing modern and ancient camp's experiences >(non-Indian trapper and/or American Indian). How do the arches hold up? >knee strain? Did they make their own from a small piece of bunched-up >sock wool sewn to buckskin? We are descended from lots of generations of folks that didn't need or bother with this, and were on their feet more than us. I doubt that they used anything at all. I know that usually my feet feel better after a good long time in moccasins. This last summer I was on an extended (10 day) trip in side seams with no extra sole, and I was fine. Just my experience....... Allen Hall from Fort Hall country ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: MtMan-List: Self Serving Commercial Promotion Date: 09 Dec 1999 14:45:12 -0500 --------------8CEC342D9004BC042A18D32F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, As per a request by a few of you I have worked up a copy of a EARLY common French knife. It can be seen a www.wesnet.com/deforge1/Knives.htm It is under the New Dec 9th along with two pics of the original. Thanks D -- "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 --------------8CEC342D9004BC042A18D32F Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all,
 As per a request by a few of you I have worked up a copy of a EARLY common French knife.
It can be seen a
www.wesnet.com/deforge1/Knives.htm
It is under the New Dec 9th along with two pics of the original.
Thanks
D
--
 
"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e"
        DOUBLE EDGE FORGE
 Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements
   http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
  --------------8CEC342D9004BC042A18D32F-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Self Serving Commercial Promotion Date: 09 Dec 1999 15:59:07 +0000 Dennis Miles wrote: > > Hi all, > As per a request by a few of you I have worked up a copy of a EARLY > common French knife. Dennis, Now that's a fine looking knife. How come it wasn't up for auction? I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Self Serving Commercial Promotion Date: 09 Dec 1999 19:42:18 -0500 Cap't. Cause I gots bills to pay.. And a National to save up for... And thanks.. It is a fine feelin' sticker... D R Lahti wrote: > Now that's a fine looking knife. How come it wasn't up for auction? I > remain.... > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html -- "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Iambrainey@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Blocking wool hats Date: 10 Dec 1999 07:19:37 EST Does anyone have info about do-it-yourself blocking/reshaping/cleaning wool hats? I have a Missouri River Style that has a brim that's about "half mast" after being in too many rains. I'd appreciate any help. Ben "Big Fisherman" Rainey ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blocking wool hats Date: 10 Dec 1999 11:52:22 EST We use to do our old Drill Sgt. hats by wetting them and putting them in a press. Simply two pieces of wood with a hole cut in one for the crown to stick out of. After drying we would spray with sizing to help them repel rain. Ridge Pole ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronald Schrotter Subject: MtMan-List: blocking wool felt hats Date: 11 Dec 1999 10:11:49 -0800 (PST) I always have wet the brim and put it on a flat table til dry. A cowboy friend of mine said to use spray starch on it after it has been shaped, and it will hold even after a rain storm. We have been rained on together many times, and his hat does indeed hold its shape! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: brain tan... Date: 11 Dec 1999 14:06:58 EST Hello the list, Just read Burnt Spoon's note about finally getting some brain tanned buckskins (The Tomahawk and Long Rifle Nov 99) and how much he liked them. I can get commercial brain tanned buckskins at about half the price of "hand tanned" and smoke em my own self... I'm wonderin if this is a good idea or should I bite the bullet and hold out for the "real thing"... YMOS, Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Vic Barkin Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan... Date: 11 Dec 1999 12:16:32 -0700 Steve, In my humble but well experienced opinion, by all means, do go for the real thing. The commercial brain tan isn't even close. Although it may look the same, The feel and comfort is the most important thing. True brain tan breaths and insulates better. It can be said to have more of a quality of flannel than commercial leather. When I made the big "switch" years back, I was amazed and still am at how comfortable the real stuff was. Kinda kicked myself for sweating and freezing all those years in stuff that may have looked good. And one other thing, weight. basically what I'm trying to say is If it is within your means, either time wise to make your own or otherwise to purchase some quality stuff, Then by all means, do so. Vic >Hello the list, >Just read Burnt Spoon's note about finally getting some brain tanned >buckskins (The Tomahawk and Long Rifle Nov 99) and how much he liked them. I >can get commercial brain tanned buckskins at about half the price of "hand >tanned" and smoke em my own self... I'm wonderin if this is a good idea or >should I bite the bullet and hold out for the "real thing"... >YMOS, >Steve > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan... Date: 11 Dec 1999 15:01:09 -0500 Hold out.. Make your own, you WON'T regret it.... D SWcushing@aol.com wrote: > Hello the list, > Just read Burnt Spoon's note about finally getting some brain tanned > buckskins (The Tomahawk and Long Rifle Nov 99) and how much he liked them. I > can get commercial brain tanned buckskins at about half the price of "hand > tanned" and smoke em my own self... I'm wonderin if this is a good idea or > should I bite the bullet and hold out for the "real thing"... > YMOS, > Steve > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html -- "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Walter Harper Subject: Re: MtMan-List: blocking wool felt hats Date: 11 Dec 1999 18:20:45 -0800 I have used the spray foam carpet cleaner on my wool hats. then use the spray starch. I have even gone to the point to to cut out of a oiece of plywood the size of of the hat to sit down on the hat to get the brim flat. Ronald Schrotter wrote: > > I always have wet the brim and put it on a flat table > til dry. A cowboy friend of mine said to use spray > starch on it after it has been shaped, and it will > hold even after a rain storm. We have been rained on > together many times, and his hat does indeed hold its > shape! > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. > Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: blocking wool felt hats Date: 11 Dec 1999 18:45:06 -0800 A friend told me to use rubbing alcohol on felt hats to re-stiffen. I tried it once, and it seemed to work well. I put the isopropyl alcohol in an atomizer and sprayed hat. Layed out flat to let dry. I also made a hat stretcher, copied from one the same friend had. I snug it up into hat while storing the hat. My 2 cents....Hardtack Your Second Amendment Rights protect ALL of your other Rights, Don't give up your Rights ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: what it is? Date: 12 Dec 1999 13:37:03 EST Ho the list, Here's a jpg of a critter we shot over by the Hanford Nuclear Research Center with our flintlocks. Took several round balls to put em down and scare of the herd he was runnin with. Not quite sure of what kind of varmit it is and would like to have em identified befor we roast a drumstick.... http://members.aol.com/swcushing/myhomepage/whatitis.jpg YMOS. Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ron Chamberlain" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: what it is? Date: 12 Dec 1999 12:06:51 -0700 Picture is way to dark to see it, can you lighten it up any? cstmzd@ida.net The Website your boss doesn’t want you to know about! http://www.sixfigureincome.com/?144306 -----Original Message----- >Ho the list, > >Here's a jpg of a critter we shot over by the Hanford Nuclear Research Center >with our flintlocks. Took several round balls to put em down and scare of the >herd he was runnin with. Not quite sure of what kind of varmit it is and >would like to have em identified befor we roast a drumstick.... > http://members.aol.com/swcushing/myhomepage/whatitis.jpg > >YMOS. > >Steve > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BarneyPFife@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: what it is? Date: 12 Dec 1999 14:55:48 EST dam. you boys shot a tipi tripod. better cook it good so the legs soften up. Barm ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: what it is? Date: 12 Dec 1999 14:58:36 -0500 I have imported the pic and been playing with it for the last ten minutes changing colors, sizes and all kinds of neet stuff and I have come to the conclusion that it resembles a rat or mouse that is hanging from a tripod. Due to poor pic quality I can't be sure but I swear that it looks further closer to the camera than (alot closer) than the guy or the jeep. Could it be that a rat or mouse was hung from a tripod then had its pic. taken to encompass the images in the back. It may just be a little old rodent or a monster rodent. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, December 12, 1999 1:37 PM > Ho the list, > > Here's a jpg of a critter we shot over by the Hanford Nuclear Research Center > with our flintlocks. Took several round balls to put em down and scare of the > herd he was runnin with. Not quite sure of what kind of varmit it is and > would like to have em identified befor we roast a drumstick.... > http://members.aol.com/swcushing/myhomepage/whatitis.jpg > > YMOS. > > Steve > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: what it is? Date: 12 Dec 1999 14:33:45 -0600 The photo is pretty dark, but it looks like a Texas field mouse. Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Sunday, December 12, 1999 12:37 PM > Ho the list, >=20 > Here's a jpg of a critter we shot over by the Hanford Nuclear Research = Center=20 > with our flintlocks. Took several round balls to put em down and scare = of the=20 > herd he was runnin with. Not quite sure of what kind of varmit it is = and=20 > would like to have em identified befor we roast a drumstick.... > http://members.aol.com/swcushing/myhomepage/whatitis.jpg >=20 > YMOS. >=20 > Steve > =20 >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ron Chamberlain" Subject: MtMan-List: 4th Grade Teachers? OT Date: 12 Dec 1999 13:42:49 -0700 Hello the list! Is there any 4th grade teachers on the list? I'm interested in what the curriculum is for the fur trade studies. Please contact me off list! I'm thinking about biulding another Mt Man webpage only targeted at the 4th graders for their studies. Thanks, Ron cstmzd@ida.net Ron's Funpages www.ida.net/users/cstmzd/funpages.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: what it is? Date: 12 Dec 1999 16:01:03 EST In a message dated 12/12/99 12:01:25 PM, ikon@mindspring.com writes: <> Haaaaa...you boys know yer critters! It's actually a little pack rat we trapped in the cabin, hung on about a 12" tripod, set on a snow covered table to blend in with the back ground....infinity on the camera.....can ya tell we spent a little too much time in the woods? Sorry about it being so dark...aol at it's best, the pic is better. Ok...here another one that's about to rip my leg off...there's two traps holdin em tho! http://members.aol.com/swcushing/myhomepage/wolverine.jpg ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RangerSF5@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Need black powder rifle info Date: 12 Dec 1999 16:02:39 EST Hi Mt. Men, I'm thinking of picking up a black powder rifle but lost as to what to get. I will be using it for hunting and I don't have a lot of money. It has to be big enough for dear and for cheating,be able to have a scope mounted for the long shots. Any suggestions/prices expected to pay? What about the package deals I see in catalogs? Bob Bordentown,NJ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: MtMan-List: Critter Date: 12 Dec 1999 13:16:51 -0800 (PST) > > --RON > After very close examination of the photograph, I > conclude it to be a > "Hanfordii rodentia var. gigantus". > These seem to be very rare, in the class of the > Jackalope. > The best way to cook it is hide hair guts and all, > placed on a Bois D Arc > board wrapped in fresh Buffalo chips. > Bake in a bed of coals for one hour (or untill > done) > Then you through away the meat, and eat the > rest.(Board and all) > grn > > > > > > > --- Ron Chamberlain wrote: > > > From: "Ron Chamberlain" > > > To: > > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: what it is? > > > Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 12:06:51 -0700 > > > Reply-to: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > > > > > Picture is way to dark to see it, can you > lighten it > > > up any? > > > > > > > > > cstmzd@ida.net > > > > > > The Website your boss doesn't want you to know > > > about! > > > http://www.sixfigureincome.com/?144306 > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: SWcushing@aol.com > > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > > > > > Date: Sunday, December 12, 1999 11:38 AM > > > Subject: MtMan-List: what it is? > > > > > > > > > >Ho the list, > > > > > > > >Here's a jpg of a critter we shot over by the > > > Hanford Nuclear Research > > > Center > > > >with our flintlocks. Took several round balls > to > > > put em down and scare of > > > the > > > >herd he was runnin with. Not quite sure of what > > > kind of varmit it is and > > > >would like to have em identified befor we roast > a > > > drumstick.... > > > > > > > > > > http://members.aol.com/swcushing/myhomepage/whatitis.jpg > > > > > > > >YMOS. > > > > > > > >Steve > > > > > > > > > > > >---------------------- > > > >hist_text list info: > > > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: > > > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > ===== > > George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > > > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the > skyline. > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All > in one place. > > Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com > > ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Subject: Re: MtMan-List: what it is? Date: 12 Dec 1999 13:20:51 -0800 On Sun, 12 December 1999, "Ratcliff" wrote: > > The photo is pretty dark, but it looks like a Texas field mouse. > Lanney Ratcliff > > http://members.aol.com/swcushing/myhomepage/whatitis.jpg > > Lanney, Are you sure it isn't Mr. Miles recovering from a hangover at one of your Texas events ??? Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html _________________________________ Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Hill" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need black powder rifle info Date: 12 Dec 1999 13:43:32 -0800 scope? ugh! ---------- >From: RangerSF5@aol.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: Need black powder rifle info >Date: Sun, Dec 12, 1999, 1:02 PM > >Hi Mt. Men, >I'm thinking of picking up a black powder rifle but lost as to what to get. >I will be using it for hunting and I don't have a lot of money. >It has to be big enough for dear and for cheating,be able to have a scope >mounted for the long shots. >Any suggestions/prices expected to pay? >What about the package deals I see in catalogs? >Bob >Bordentown,NJ > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: delis@aztec.asu.edu (BRUCE S. DE LIS) Subject: MtMan-List: An Invitation To Winter National Shoot 2000 Date: 12 Dec 1999 15:07:47 -0700 (MST) Thought I would post this reminder for everyone that the NMLRA is holding their 8 th. Annual Winter National Shoot in Phoenix Arizona, at the Ben Avery Shooting Fa cility approximately 23 miles to the North of Downtown Phoenix. Starting on Febr uary 16, 2000, and Finishing on February 21, 2000. Now a little news if you are not an NMLRA Member, but would like to come and Camp Primitive for a few days in the Sonora Desert among the Giant Saguaro Cactus, Sh op on Trader Rows, Buy some Raffle Tickets, or just see what Winter National Shoo t is all about. If you are interested in coming to the event, and not participating in the NMLRA Shooting Matches, you CAN STILL come to Ben Avery Shooting Facility, and Camp in the Primitive Camp, as the property is under the control of the Arizona Game & Fi sh Department. The fees that are involved are very minimal. It will cost you $4 .00 a day for each Primitive Camp Site no matter how many are stay in your Campsi te (one tent per campsite). So if you have a Large Tepee you can fill it with fr iends each night, a Daily Camping Fee of $4.00 will be collected by Arizona Game & Fish, also you will be required to pay a Range Usage Fee for each Campsite of $ 4.00 every other day to use the Public Range at Ben Avery Shooting Facility. Rea son for the Range Fee is the Primitive Campground is open only to Registered Shoo ters. No reservation necessary as the Primitive Camp @ Ben Avery Shooting Facili ty is very very large. So the numbers work out like this, you and six friends come to the event, and Cam p Primitive in one Campsite with one Tent. You will pay a total of $32.00 if you stay the entire 6 days. Also if you are not an NMLRA Member but are interested in participating in the NM LRA Shooting Events, they have a NEW DEAL, where a Non Member can pay a $10.00 "E vent Participation Fee", and participate in the Winter National Shooting Events, buy paying all the other Normal Registration Fee, Match, or Aggregate fee etc. B asically you have some of the membership privileges, that allow you to compete in an NMLRA event without have to buy a full $35.00 Annual NMLRA Membership. Also there are not GATE Fees at the Ben Avery Shooting Facility, so if you live c lose enough to drive out for the day, and only want to look around, and do some s hopping on Trader Row. You will not have to pay a Gate, or Parking Fee. If anyone need any more information about this posting or the NMLRA Winter Nation als, send me an e-mail on this mailing list, or check my Message Forum listed bel ow. Hope to meet some of you @ Winter National Shoot 2000, as I should be their with the Guy in the Skies help. Penny Pincher-NMLRA Field Representative in the West Don't Forget The NMLRA Winter National Shoot Phoenix Arizona-February 16-21, 2000 http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb750171 -- Penny Pincher-NMLRA Field Representative In The West Visit Penny Pincher's West of the Mississippi, Muzzleloading & Black Powder Message Forum http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb750171 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John McKee" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need black powder rifle info Date: 12 Dec 1999 17:51:40 -0600 Bob, before you jump in, find the local Blackpowder club and go watch and listen. There is usually someone around with a gun to sell. Don't start throwing your money around until you see what's being shot and what information can be learned. If you HAVE to have a gun RIGHT NOW then I would get a Thompson Center rifle. There are many cals. and types but TC is American made and guaranteed for life. Personally, find the club first! Hope this helps some. Long John ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, December 12, 1999 3:02 PM > Hi Mt. Men, > I'm thinking of picking up a black powder rifle but lost as to what to get. > I will be using it for hunting and I don't have a lot of money. > It has to be big enough for dear and for cheating,be able to have a scope > mounted for the long shots. > Any suggestions/prices expected to pay? > What about the package deals I see in catalogs? > Bob > Bordentown,NJ > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: what it is? Date: 12 Dec 1999 20:25:40 -0500 Excuse me, Mr. Conner... I have found that if one never entirely sobers up, one NE'ER gets hungover. D Buck wrote: > Are you sure it isn't Mr. Miles recovering from a hangover at one of your Texas events ??? > -- "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Walter Harper Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need black powder rifle info Date: 12 Dec 1999 18:20:06 -0800 Go get you a thompson Center Hawkins 50 cal. cap lock. It is probable the best way to go. If you can find one in the pawn shops for less then $150.00 you are in the hunt. With a 50 you can hunt anything but birds unless you get to be a real good shot, Rabbits to white tails. I have pack one around for a while. not bad. The only thing to make it really period is get rid of the adjustalble site on the back and make sure it does not have a coil spring for fire mech. needs to be a flat spring... Then all you need is 70 grans of ffg and a patch and a round ball and a cap. wait till the smoke clears..... 3-strings RangerSF5@aol.com wrote: > > Hi Mt. Men, > I'm thinking of picking up a black powder rifle but lost as to what to get. > I will be using it for hunting and I don't have a lot of money. > It has to be big enough for dear and for cheating,be able to have a scope > mounted for the long shots. > Any suggestions/prices expected to pay? > What about the package deals I see in catalogs? > Bob > Bordentown,NJ > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Walter Harper Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need black powder rifle info Date: 12 Dec 1999 18:22:31 -0800 no scope, no scope. In washington it is against the law for a scope. with a black powder if you need a scope to see something to shot then it is far away or you are blind and don't need to hunt.... 3strings Hill wrote: > > scope? > > ugh! > > ---------- > >From: RangerSF5@aol.com > >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >Subject: MtMan-List: Need black powder rifle info > >Date: Sun, Dec 12, 1999, 1:02 PM > > > > >Hi Mt. Men, > >I'm thinking of picking up a black powder rifle but lost as to what to get. > >I will be using it for hunting and I don't have a lot of money. > >It has to be big enough for dear and for cheating,be able to have a scope > >mounted for the long shots. > >Any suggestions/prices expected to pay? > >What about the package deals I see in catalogs? > >Bob > >Bordentown,NJ > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: what it is? Date: 12 Dec 1999 19:53:01 -0700 Reply to: Re: MtMan-List: what it is? Can't believe you would admit to a runt mouse like that being from Texas DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants Buck wrote: >On Sun, 12 December 1999, "Ratcliff" wrote: > >> = >> The photo is pretty dark, but it looks like a Texas field mouse. >> Lanney Ratcliff >> > http://members.aol.com/swcushing/myhomepage/whatitis.jpg >> > = > >Lanney, >Are you sure it isn't Mr. Miles recovering from a hangover at one of your = >Texas events ??? > > >Later, >Buck Conner >_________________________________ >Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html >Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ >AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html >_________________________________ >Aux Ailments de Pays! > >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > > Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with = ESMTP > (SMTPD32-5.01) id A1CC51F00C6; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 14:21:16 -0600 > Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #2) > id 11xGQI-0006dc-00 > for hist_text-gooutt@lists.xmission.com; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 14:20:54 -= 0700 > Received: from [209.228.14.90] (helo=3Dc000.sfo.cp.net) > by lists.xmission.com with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) > id 11xGQF-0006dQ-00 > for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 14:20:51 -0700 > Received: (cpmta 26875 invoked from network); 12 Dec 1999 13:20:51 -0800 > Date: 12 Dec 1999 13:20:51 -0800 > Message-ID: <19991212212051.26874.cpmta@c000.sfo.cp.net> > X-Sent: 12 Dec 1999 21:20:51 GMT > Received: from [12.74.74.13] by mail.uswestmail.net with HTTP; > 12 Dec 1999 13:20:50 PST > Content-Type: text/plain > Content-Disposition: inline > Mime-Version: 1.0 > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > From: Buck > X-Mailer: Web Mail 3.3 > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: what it is? > Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > X-RCPT-TO: > X-UIDL: 4114 > Status: U > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: what it is? Date: 12 Dec 1999 21:09:21 -0600 should have said...."newborn" Texas field mouse. I do admire the amount of effort put forth for such a prank photo. I = have been guilty of much worse...oh, Lord, way worse. I think that the = time used for such things is not charged against a person's life span. = It just goes to show that my wife is right.....that the main difference = between most of us and a pack of Cub Scouts is the lack of responsible = adult supervision. Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Sunday, December 12, 1999 8:53 PM Reply to: Re: MtMan-List: what it is? Can't believe you would admit to a runt mouse like that being from Texas DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants Buck wrote: >On Sun, 12 December 1999, "Ratcliff" wrote: > >> >> The photo is pretty dark, but it looks like a Texas field mouse. >> Lanney Ratcliff >> > http://members.aol.com/swcushing/myhomepage/whatitis.jpg >> > > >Lanney, >Are you sure it isn't Mr. Miles recovering from a hangover at one of = your >Texas events ??? > > >Later, >Buck Conner >_________________________________ >Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html >Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ >AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html >_________________________________ >Aux Ailments de Pays! > >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account = http://www.uswestmail.net > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > > Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com = with ESMTP > (SMTPD32-5.01) id A1CC51F00C6; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 14:21:16 -0600 > Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #2) > id 11xGQI-0006dc-00 > for hist_text-gooutt@lists.xmission.com; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 14:20:54 = -0700 > Received: from [209.228.14.90] (helo=3Dc000.sfo.cp.net) > by lists.xmission.com with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) > id 11xGQF-0006dQ-00 > for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 14:20:51 -0700 > Received: (cpmta 26875 invoked from network); 12 Dec 1999 13:20:51 = -0800 > Date: 12 Dec 1999 13:20:51 -0800 > Message-ID: <19991212212051.26874.cpmta@c000.sfo.cp.net> > X-Sent: 12 Dec 1999 21:20:51 GMT > Received: from [12.74.74.13] by mail.uswestmail.net with HTTP; > 12 Dec 1999 13:20:50 PST > Content-Type: text/plain > Content-Disposition: inline > Mime-Version: 1.0 > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > From: Buck > X-Mailer: Web Mail 3.3 > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: what it is? > Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > X-RCPT-TO: > X-UIDL: 4114 > Status: U > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Hill" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need black powder rifle info Date: 12 Dec 1999 19:16:50 -0800 Here's what you need: follow the previous advice to go to a club and get some help with your choice. Thompson's are ok starters but don't buy the first one you see. My club taught me more in one afternoon of shooting than I learned on my own in 2 years of shooting alone! I still say: Scope? ugh! What would you want one of them shiny things for anyway? Hill ---------- >From: Walter Harper >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need black powder rifle info >Date: Sun, Dec 12, 1999, 6:22 PM > >no scope, no scope. In washington it is against the law for a scope. >with a black powder if you need a scope to see something to shot then it >is far away or you are blind and don't need to hunt.... > >3strings > >Hill wrote: >> >> scope? >> >> ugh! >> >> ---------- >> >From: RangerSF5@aol.com >> >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> >Subject: MtMan-List: Need black powder rifle info >> >Date: Sun, Dec 12, 1999, 1:02 PM >> > >> >> >Hi Mt. Men, >> >I'm thinking of picking up a black powder rifle but lost as to what to get. >> >I will be using it for hunting and I don't have a lot of money. >> >It has to be big enough for dear and for cheating,be able to have a scope >> >mounted for the long shots. >> >Any suggestions/prices expected to pay? >> >What about the package deals I see in catalogs? >> >Bob >> >Bordentown,NJ >> > >> >---------------------- >> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: what it is? Date: 12 Dec 1999 22:27:37 -0500 Lanney, I have heard that many a time.. Fer some reason.. Usually after a week with Brothers... D Ratcliff wrote: ...that the main difference between most of us and a pack of Cub Scouts is the lack of responsible adult supervision. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: what it is? Date: 12 Dec 1999 22:48:18 EST In a message dated 12/12/99 7:04:17 PM, rat@htcomp.net writes: <> Haaaaa.... Thanks for the kind words Lanney. With the right amount of whiskey, and companions...a guy can get creative! We laughed like fools.... Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RangerSF5@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need black powder rifle info Date: 12 Dec 1999 22:52:54 EST In a message dated 12/12/99 6:50:38 PM EST, stitchin@tekhullogy.com writes: << Bob, before you jump in, find the local Blackpowder club and go watch and listen. There is usually someone around with a gun to sell. Don't start throwing your money around until you see what's being shot and what information can be learned. If you HAVE to have a gun RIGHT NOW then I would get a Thompson Center rifle. There are many cals. and types but TC is American made and guaranteed for life. Personally, find the club first! Hope this helps some. Long John >> Thanks John, Thats just the type i'm looking for. However I need to update my address on my ID card and in NJ that takes time. This will give me a chance to look around. The TC sounds like one that I can't afford but I understand that there are others that are center fire. ============================================================= I think I found this list via a web site. If there is one can you send me the URL. Again, Thanks John and the others who took the time to write. Bob Bordentown,NJ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan... Date: 12 Dec 1999 19:58:02 +0000 SWcushing@aol.com wrote: I > can get commercial brain tanned buckskins at about half the price of "hand > tanned" and smoke em my own self... I'm wonderin if this is a good idea or > should I bite the bullet and hold out for the "real thing"... Steve, Bite the bullet. I'm not sure what "commercial Brain Tan" is but brain tan is brain tan and it comes smoked or I would suspect it is not brain tan but a facsimily and as you have been advised, there is no substitute that will have the same properties. Actually, smoking the hides after they have been "brain tanned" is the easy part, so I wonder if what you are seeing advertised is actually the real thing. The real thing is truly wonderful stuff. It is not difficult to make but is labor intensive. You can do it outside and smoke it in your lodge if you want to hide that from the neighbors. Wait for the real thing. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan... Date: 12 Dec 1999 23:04:21 EST In a message dated 12/12/99 7:57:19 PM, lahtirog@gte.net writes: <> Ho Capt, The commercial brain tan buckskin comes from Portland Leather... apparently it is tanned using brains, is white, but only "suede" on one side (not scraped) and of course, not smoked. I'll wait till I can get the real stuff... YMOS, Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: what it is? Date: 12 Dec 1999 21:17:38 +0000 SWcushing@aol.com wrote: > > Ho the list, Not quite sure of what kind of varmint it is and > would like to have em identified befor we roast a drumstick.... Steve, I guess you didn't know that I live right next to the Hanford Reservation and am familiar with most of the wild life in these parts. What you and your companions shot was a Hanford Reach Deer Mouse. They not only carry Hantaviris but have enough residual radiation in them to cook five Swanson Extra Helping Frozen Turkey Dinners. I see you are almost there on how to properly take them in not so fair chase. We don't shoot them as you tried to do and were lucky enough to accomplish. You have found out how hard they are to kill. We use a special trap set up that is very similar to how we trap sasquatches. It intails a large tripod made of teepee poles though your setup doesn't look big enough for a full grown sasquatch much less a cub. There is more that I could tell you about your kill but the most important thing to remember is not to let anyone still of breeding age or inclination stand close to the critter for more than about 5 minutes. Actually time and distance can make for longer exposures without serious radiation burns and sterility but the formula is too complicated. If you put one in the creek up stream from your camp you can drink the water in front of camp without worry about any bugs getting into your lower tract. We never eat them but we do use them to irradiate our meat so it won't go bad. My suggestion as to how to use the animal is simply to put it next to your freezer and in about 3 days you can turn the freezer off and the food inside will never spoil. Put the carcass on the far side of the freezer from the family room. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RangerSF5@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need black powder rifle info.& Question Date: 13 Dec 1999 03:14:03 EST In a message dated 12/12/99 9:23:43 PM EST, wharper@sinclair.net writes: << no scope, no scope. In washington it is against the law for a scope. with a black powder if you need a scope to see something to shot then it is far away or you are blind and don't need to hunt.... >> Ok ,No scope,No Scope. But it's nice to have one. ============================================================= QUESTION. I think it was Savage that made an O/U 410 and a 45. I just wanted some input on that because the 410 and the 45 are so close. What would be the advantage? The 410 can put out a slug better then a 45. I stand to be corrected but maybe a 410 and a 22LR would be better? Bob Bordentown,NJ Http://www.angelfire.com/nj/IamSF5/index.html. Subject: Re: MtMan-List: what it is? Date: 13 Dec 1999 08:56:05 -0500 Steve, It's not a clear picture, but I'd say from the shape of the tail and the size compared to the tripod that you bagged a mid-sized mountain lion. I don't know another mammal with a tail like that. HBC PS. Where's Hanford Nuclear Research Center? >Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 13:37:03 EST >From: SWcushing@aol.com >Subject: > >Ho the list, > >Here's a jpg of a critter we shot over by the Hanford Nuclear Research Center >with our flintlocks. Took several round balls to put em down and scare of the >herd he was runnin with. Not quite sure of what kind of varmit it is and >would like to have em identified befor we roast a drumstick.... > http://members.aol.com/swcushing/myhomepage/whatitis.jpg > >YMOS. > >Steve > > >- ---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >------------------------------ > >End of hist_text-digest V1 #422 >******************************* > >- > To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to >"majordomo@xmission.com" > with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message. **************************************** Henry B. Crawford Box 43191 Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because It's There ****** ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Glenn Darilek" Subject: MtMan-List: Blocking wool hats Date: 13 Dec 1999 09:30:03 -0600 For the most authentic look, avoid reblocking your felt hats, particularly the brims. Look at the drawings by Alfred Jacob Miller, who drew the "hillbilly" looking hats on the mountaineers. When worn for even part of a season, the hats naturally became misshapen. Of course, if you let them dry when off your head, they will be too small, so some reblocking of the crown may be necessary to get them to fit again, but the brim can stay naturally . Glenn Darilek Iron Burner >Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 07:19:37 EST >From: Iambrainey@aol.com >Subject: MtMan-List: Blocking wool hats >Does anyone have info about do-it-yourself blocking/reshaping/cleaning wool >hats? I have a Missouri River Style that has a brim that's about "half mast" >after being in too many rains. I'd appreciate any help. >Ben "Big Fisherman" Rainey ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, December 12, 1999 12:38 PM > > hist_text-digest Sunday, December 12 1999 Volume 01 : Number 422 > > > > In this issue: > > - MtMan-List: Blocking wool hats > - Re: MtMan-List: Blocking wool hats > - MtMan-List: blocking wool felt hats > - MtMan-List: brain tan... > - Re: MtMan-List: brain tan... > - Re: MtMan-List: brain tan... > - Re: MtMan-List: blocking wool felt hats > - Re: MtMan-List: blocking wool felt hats > - MtMan-List: what it is? > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 07:19:37 EST > From: Iambrainey@aol.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Blocking wool hats > > Does anyone have info about do-it-yourself blocking/reshaping/cleaning wool > hats? I have a Missouri River Style that has a brim that's about "half mast" > after being in too many rains. I'd appreciate any help. > > Ben "Big Fisherman" Rainey > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 11:52:22 EST > From: TrapRJoe@aol.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blocking wool hats > > We use to do our old Drill Sgt. hats by wetting them and putting them in a > press. Simply two pieces of wood with a hole cut in one for the crown to > stick out of. After drying we would spray with sizing to help them repel > rain. > Ridge Pole > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 10:11:49 -0800 (PST) > From: Ronald Schrotter > Subject: MtMan-List: blocking wool felt hats > > I always have wet the brim and put it on a flat table > til dry. A cowboy friend of mine said to use spray > starch on it after it has been shaped, and it will > hold even after a rain storm. We have been rained on > together many times, and his hat does indeed hold its > shape! > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. > Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 14:06:58 EST > From: SWcushing@aol.com > Subject: MtMan-List: brain tan... > > Hello the list, > Just read Burnt Spoon's note about finally getting some brain tanned > buckskins (The Tomahawk and Long Rifle Nov 99) and how much he liked them. I > can get commercial brain tanned buckskins at about half the price of "hand > tanned" and smoke em my own self... I'm wonderin if this is a good idea or > should I bite the bullet and hold out for the "real thing"... > YMOS, > Steve > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 12:16:32 -0700 > From: Vic Barkin > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan... > > Steve, > > In my humble but well experienced opinion, by all means, do go for the real > thing. The commercial brain tan isn't even close. Although it may look the > same, The feel and comfort is the most important thing. True brain tan > breaths and insulates better. It can be said to have more of a quality of > flannel than commercial leather. When I made the big "switch" years back, I > was amazed and still am at how comfortable the real stuff was. Kinda kicked > myself for sweating and freezing all those years in stuff that may have > looked good. And one other thing, weight. basically what I'm trying to say > is If it is within your means, either time wise to make your own or > otherwise to purchase some quality stuff, Then by all means, do so. > > Vic > > >Hello the list, > >Just read Burnt Spoon's note about finally getting some brain tanned > >buckskins (The Tomahawk and Long Rifle Nov 99) and how much he liked them. I > >can get commercial brain tanned buckskins at about half the price of "hand > >tanned" and smoke em my own self... I'm wonderin if this is a good idea or > >should I bite the bullet and hold out for the "real thing"... > >YMOS, > >Steve > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 15:01:09 -0500 > From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan... > > Hold out.. Make your own, you WON'T regret it.... > D > > SWcushing@aol.com wrote: > > > Hello the list, > > Just read Burnt Spoon's note about finally getting some brain tanned > > buckskins (The Tomahawk and Long Rifle Nov 99) and how much he liked them. I > > can get commercial brain tanned buckskins at about half the price of "hand > > tanned" and smoke em my own self... I'm wonderin if this is a good idea or > > should I bite the bullet and hold out for the "real thing"... > > YMOS, > > Steve > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > - -- > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements > http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 > > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 18:20:45 -0800 > From: Walter Harper > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: blocking wool felt hats > > I have used the spray foam carpet cleaner on my wool hats. then use the > spray starch. I have even gone to the point to to cut out of a oiece > of plywood the size of of the hat to sit down on the hat to get the > brim flat. > > Ronald Schrotter wrote: > > > > I always have wet the brim and put it on a flat table > > til dry. A cowboy friend of mine said to use spray > > starch on it after it has been shaped, and it will > > hold even after a rain storm. We have been rained on > > together many times, and his hat does indeed hold its > > shape! > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. > > Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 18:45:06 -0800 > From: randybublitz@juno.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: blocking wool felt hats > > A friend told me to use rubbing alcohol on felt hats to re-stiffen. I > tried it once, and it seemed to work well. I put the isopropyl alcohol > in an atomizer and sprayed hat. Layed out flat to let dry. I also made > a hat stretcher, copied from one the same friend had. I snug it up into > hat while storing the hat. My 2 cents....Hardtack > > Your Second Amendment Rights protect ALL of your other Rights, Don't give > up your Rights > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 13:37:03 EST > From: SWcushing@aol.com > Subject: MtMan-List: what it is? > > Ho the list, > > Here's a jpg of a critter we shot over by the Hanford Nuclear Research Center > with our flintlocks. Took several round balls to put em down and scare of the > herd he was runnin with. Not quite sure of what kind of varmit it is and > would like to have em identified befor we roast a drumstick.... > http://members.aol.com/swcushing/myhomepage/whatitis.jpg > > YMOS. > > Steve > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > End of hist_text-digest V1 #422 > ******************************* > > - > To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to > "majordomo@xmission.com" > with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message. > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: what it is? Date: 13 Dec 1999 11:40:12 EST In a message dated 12/12/99 9:17:53 PM, lahtirog@gte.net writes: <> ....ya know that varmit did kinda glow at night....and most of my side-kicks ain't been right since...and I'll be ok when my hair grows back and them wood teeth fit better... YMOS, Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need black powder rifle info.& Question Date: 13 Dec 1999 11:57:46 -0500 bob--- got to remember that we dont discuss the supository guns here or we get our mouth's washed out with good whiskey or the equivelant--- TOF will slap your hands--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to get Web access? Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: what it is? Date: 13 Dec 1999 11:27:18 -0500 lanny and D: I think my better half has a better term for it ---she says that a AMM rue is only a excuse for grown men to not take a bath for week or more, and for the grown men to tell both war stories and fary tails---as you well know fary tails start off "Once upon a time and war stories start of "now you guys arn't going to believe this S---" ---or " ther i was and it was shining times" got her well trained---when I sit down with some of my SF buddies or AMM brother she just goes and does her thing and says she has heard all the stories before and gets bored easily. so there is no conflict of interest.. she still thinks I should put my skins in a cage and leave outsise and charge admission to see the funny ugly dirty animal in the cage---I keep telling her that "they just got over 20 years of character in them" and are starting to feel good and fit proper. "HAWK" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 22:27:37 -0500 deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) writes: > Lanney, > I have heard that many a time.. Fer some reason.. Usually after > a week with Brothers... > D > > Ratcliff wrote: > ...that the main difference between most of us and a pack of Cub > Scouts is the lack of responsible adult supervision. > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ___________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to get Web access? Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: hand stichin.. Date: 13 Dec 1999 16:46:54 EST Ho the List, One of the 1st requirements for a membership in the AMM is a full set of hand sewn clothing..... If them boys saw how handy I was with a needle and thread, they'd issue a wavier, and just send me some clothes! My work beings tears to most wimmins eyes and grins to some.... Not waitin for the clothes to arrive, I picked up some wool for a pull over. I'd like to know what stich to use, kind and colour of thread, and how many stiches per inch would be right.... Also gittin a little tired of folks throwin rocks at me when ever I wear the stuff I've made....... Ymos, Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blocking wool hats Date: 13 Dec 1999 17:59:19 EST In a message dated 12/13/1999 7:27:51 AM Pacific Standard Time, llsi@texas.net writes: << For the most authentic look, avoid reblocking your felt hats, particularly the brims. Look at the drawings by Alfred Jacob Miller, who drew the "hillbilly" looking hats on the mountaineers. When worn for even part of a season, the hats naturally became misshapen. >> For the first few years I tried my dangdest to keep my brim flat. Then one fall, I got caught in a Nevada cloud burst & when my hat dried that time, I gave up on trying to keep it "perfect." When Rex Norman did his book on Miller's art, the very first hat he showed was MY hat! All I had to do was add the turkey feathers & pipe. That old hat had kinda become my trade mark -- several people have said they didn't recognize me without it. I got a new hat several years ago & caught all kinds of flack about it. Will have for the next cloud burst to break it in right, I guess NM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John McKee" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hand stichin.. Date: 13 Dec 1999 18:45:25 -0600 Steve: contact me off line. JMc ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, December 13, 1999 3:46 PM > Ho the List, > > One of the 1st requirements for a membership in the AMM is a full set of hand > sewn clothing..... If them boys saw how handy I was with a needle and thread, > they'd issue a wavier, and just send me some clothes! My work beings tears to > most wimmins eyes and grins to some.... > > Not waitin for the clothes to arrive, I picked up some wool for a pull over. > I'd like to know what stich to use, kind and colour of thread, and how many > stiches per inch would be right.... > > Also gittin a little tired of folks throwin rocks at me when ever I wear the > stuff I've made....... > > Ymos, > > Steve > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blocking wool hats Date: 13 Dec 1999 18:04:28 -0700 Reply to: Re: MtMan-List: Blocking wool hats If it got that way from being used, who cares if it looks new again? Just = wear it with pride. DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants NaugaMok wrote: >In a message dated 12/13/1999 7:27:51 AM Pacific Standard Time, = >llsi@texas.net writes: > ><< For the most authentic look, avoid reblocking your felt hats, = particularly > the brims. Look at the drawings by Alfred Jacob Miller, who drew the > "hillbilly" looking hats on the mountaineers. When worn for even part = of a > season, the hats naturally became misshapen. > >> > >For the first few years I tried my dangdest to keep my brim flat. Then = one = >fall, I got caught in a Nevada cloud burst & when my hat dried that time, = I = >gave up on trying to keep it "perfect." When Rex Norman did his book on = >Miller's art, the very first hat he showed was MY hat! All I had to do = was = >add the turkey feathers & pipe. That old hat had kinda become my trade = mark = >-- several people have said they didn't recognize me without it. I got a = new = >hat several years ago & caught all kinds of flack about it. Will have = for = >the next cloud burst to break it in right, I guess > >NM > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > > Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with = ESMTP > (SMTPD32-5.01) id AA6D1C60116; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 15:59:57 -0600 > Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #2) > id 11xeRC-0003GB-00 > for hist_text-gooutt@lists.xmission.com; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 15:59:26 -= 0700 > Received: from [205.188.157.42] (helo=3Dimo-d10.mx) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) > id 11xeRA-0003G6-00 > for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 15:59:24 -0700 > Received: from NaugaMok@aol.com > by imo-d10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id f.0.beae171f (3985) > for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 17:59:19 -0500 (= EST) > From: NaugaMok@aol.com > Message-ID: <0.beae171f.2586d447@aol.com> > Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 17:59:19 EST > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blocking wool hats > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 47 > Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > X-RCPT-TO: > X-UIDL: 4146 > Status: U > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need black powder rifle info Date: 13 Dec 1999 18:04:26 -0700 Reply to: Re: MtMan-List: Need black powder rifle info fdIt will take more than just achanging the sights to make a TC look = authentic. DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants Hill wrote: >Here's what you need: follow the previous advice to go to a club and get >some help with your choice. Thompson's are ok starters but don't buy the >first one you see. My club taught me more in one afternoon of shooting = than >I learned on my own in 2 years of shooting alone! > >I still say: > >Scope? > >ugh! > >What would you want one of them shiny things for anyway? > >Hill > = >---------- >>From: Walter Harper >>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need black powder rifle info >>Date: Sun, Dec 12, 1999, 6:22 PM >> > >>no scope, no scope. In washington it is against the law for a scope. = >>with a black powder if you need a scope to see something to shot then it >>is far away or you are blind and don't need to hunt.... >> >>3strings = >> >>Hill wrote: >>> = >>> scope? >>> = >>> ugh! >>> = >>> ---------- >>> >From: RangerSF5@aol.com >>> >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>> >Subject: MtMan-List: Need black powder rifle info >>> >Date: Sun, Dec 12, 1999, 1:02 PM >>> > >>> = >>> >Hi Mt. Men, >>> >I'm thinking of picking up a black powder rifle but lost as to what = to get. >>> >I will be using it for hunting and I don't have a lot of money. >>> >It has to be big enough for dear and for cheating,be able to have a = scope >>> >mounted for the long shots. >>> >Any suggestions/prices expected to pay? >>> >What about the package deals I see in catalogs? >>> >Bob >>> >Bordentown,NJ >>> > >>> >---------------------- >>> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.= html >>> > >>> = >>> ---------------------- >>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.= html >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > > Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with = ESMTP > (SMTPD32-5.01) id A6ED52300BC; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 20:24:29 -0600 > Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #2) > id 11xM5c-0007kt-00 > for hist_text-gooutt@lists.xmission.com; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 20:23:56 -= 0700 > Received: from [205.162.184.63] (helo=3Dmx20.rmci.net) > by lists.xmission.com with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) > id 11xM5Z-0007kn-00 > for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 20:23:53 -0700 > Received: (qmail 4770 invoked from network); 13 Dec 1999 03:23:51 -0000 > Received: from dialup-208-19-116-27.lv.rmci.net (HELO ?208.19.116.27?) = >(208.19.116.27) > by halcyon.rmci.net with SMTP; 13 Dec 1999 03:23:51 -0000 > X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) = > Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 19:16:50 -0800 > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need black powder rifle info > From: "Hill" > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Mime-version: 1.0 > X-Priority: 3 > Content-type: text/plain; charset=3D"US-ASCII" > Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Message-Id: > Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > X-RCPT-TO: > X-UIDL: 4124 > Status: U > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: stitches... Date: 13 Dec 1999 20:57:23 EST Ho JMc, By the looks of yer e-mail address, you must be the man I needs to talk to. I weren't joshin about lackin in the sewin field.... Seem I gotta make them clothes my own self to be leagle.... Ymos, Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Hill" Subject: naugamok's hat Date: 13 Dec 1999 21:38:35 -0800 Yup NM's hat looks pert right mine has too high a crown and needs some weathering Dennis in LV ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John McKee" Subject: MtMan-List: Stitchin reply Date: 14 Dec 1999 07:03:16 -0600 Steve: I've been doing custom handsewn leather goods ( specialize in the fur trade era ) for about 10 years or so. The first way is with sinew from the back strap and legs of the buffalo, the Indians major food source. A real pain in the butt to sew with but THE most authentic thread. The one that I use is handspun brown linen thread that I beeswax for ease of sewing and added protection from moisture and wear. Linen is made from the flax plant and is stronger and less likely to rot when wet than sinew. It is also documented for the time period. The stuff you see all around you today is "artificial sinew" which is nothing more than beeswaxed nylon. Very hard on leather in the long haul because it has the tendency to cut rather than break as the years go by. I use a saddle or back stitch because both are much stronger than a running stitch. I guarantee my stitching for life so I use the strongest one. Commercial carpet layers used to use linen in carpet repair but have mostly gone to glue now but if you look hard enough you may be able to fine it. Finally, I am an AMM member and have sewn skins and mocs for brothers who just don't have the time.Just says they should be hand sewn but you don't HAVE to do them yourself! I am right in the middle of upgrading my web page but if you want to get a closer look at what I do just click on www.stitchinscotsman.com and if you have any more questions just holler. Hope this helps some. JMc X____ ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, December 13, 1999 7:57 PM > Ho JMc, > > By the looks of yer e-mail address, you must be the man I needs to talk to. I > weren't joshin about lackin in the sewin field.... Seem I gotta make them > clothes my own self to be leagle.... > > Ymos, > > Steve > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John McKee" Subject: MtMan-List: LAST EMAIL..off topic Date: 14 Dec 1999 07:19:56 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BF4603.9F7BCC40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry for the letter to Steve on the list. I thought I was replying off = list. John ------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BF4603.9F7BCC40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sorry for the letter to = Steve on the=20 list. I thought I was replying off list.  = John
------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BF4603.9F7BCC40-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HawkenHunter@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Montana winter joke Date: 14 Dec 1999 10:28:24 EST --part1_0.284c32a7.2587bc18_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I thought everyone out there might get a kick out of this one. --part1_0.284c32a7.2587bc18_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: BGeng61@aol.com Full-name: BGeng61 Message-ID: <0.b4a8eea6.2587bb17@aol.com> MPAJG@aol.com, goldah@uswest.net, SLBB4311@cs.com, Montanacbackkid@aol.com, HawkenHunter@aol.com, pbradfield@in-tch.com, COWWEE@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part2_0.284c32a7.2587bb17_boundary" X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 --part2_0.284c32a7.2587bb17_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part2_0.284c32a7.2587bb17_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: BGeng61@aol.com Full-name: BGeng61 Message-ID: <0.e68f3e26.2587bae7@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 AUG 12 Moved to our new home in Montana. It is so beautiful here. The mountains are so majestic. Can hardly wait to see snow covering them. OCT 14 Montana is the most beautiful place on earth. The leaves are turning all the colors and shades of red and orange. Went for a ride through the beautiful mountains and saw some deer. They are so graceful. Certainly they are the most wonderful animal on earth. This must be paradise. I love it here. NOV 11 Deer season will start soon. I can't imagine anyone wanting to kill such a gorgeous creature. Hope it will snow soon. I love it here. DEC 2 It snowed last night. Woke up to find everything blanketed with white. It looks like a postcard. We went outside and cleaned the snow off the steps and shovelled the driveway. We had a snowball fight (I won), and when the snowplow came by, we had to shovel the driveway again. What a beautiful place. I love Montana. DEC 12 More snow last night. I love it. The snowplow did his trick again to the driveway. I love it here. DEC 19 More snow last night. Couldn't get out of the driveway to get to work. I am exhausted from shovelling. Damn snowplow! DEC 22 More of that white crap fell last night. I've got blisters on my hands from shovelling. I think the snowplow hides around the curve and waits until I'm done shovelling the driveway. Jerk! DEC 25 Merry Stinking Christmas! More friggen snow. If I ever get my hands on that SOB who drives the snowplow I swear I'll kill the bastard. Don't know why they don't use more salt on the roads to melt the fricking ice. DEC 27 More white crap last night. Been inside for three days, except for shovelling out the driveway after that snowplow goes through every time. Can't go anywhere, car is stuck in a mountain of white crap. The weatherman says to expect another 10" of the crap again tonight. Do you know how many shovels full of snow 10" is???? DEC 28 The weatherman was wrong. We got 34" of that white crap this time. At this rate it won't melt before this summer. The snowplow got stuck up in the road and that bastard came to the door and asked to borrow my shovel. After I told him I had broken six shovels already shovelling all the shit he pushed into the driveway, I broke my last one over his fricking head. JAN 4 Finally got out of the house today. Went to the store to get food and on the way back a damned deer ran in front of the car and I hit it. Did about $3000 damage to the car. Those fricking beasts should be killed. Wish the hunters had killed them all last November. MAY 3 Took the car to the garage in town. Would you believe the thing is rusting out from that fricking salt they put all over the roads. MAY 10 Moved back to California. I can't imagine why anyone in their right mind would ever live in that God-forsaken state of Montana. --part2_0.284c32a7.2587bb17_boundary-- --part1_0.284c32a7.2587bc18_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Stitchin reply(Linen thread) Date: 14 Dec 1999 14:12:39 PST I am a carpet layer by trade, and still have access to the linen thread mentioned in your post. The thread is already waxed, and quite large. I found it to large for cloth garments, but perfect for leather. It comes on a wooden spool, and if memory serves me correctly, it is still being manufacured by a company that has been in buiness since the mid 1700's. Cliff Tiffie Rt. 1 Box 82C Caddo, OK 74729 580-924-4187 --------------------- Aux Ailments de Pays! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need black powder rifle info Date: 14 Dec 1999 19:53:03 EST The advice about a club is very good. Thats just what I did when I started out. I still use a very cheap rifle, cost under $ 200.00, and its been good for learning with. I did get an elk with it,too. Think hard about a scope, though. The whole idea of muzzleloading is going for that extra challenge, sneaking up close enough to the game to get in that shot. It develops new skills that you dont have to consider much with a modern rifle. For instance, Crazy has taught me to think and walk like an elk when hunting- move slow, stop real often and wait, etc. Doing that, I came around a curve in the trail and a bull elk was waiting for me. He knew I was coming, but thought I was another elk from the way I was walking. (being covered with elk urine helped me, too).You'll really enjoy muzzleloading, but nix the scope and it will be even more fun! Jill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne & Terri" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Stitchin reply(Linen thread) Date: 14 Dec 1999 18:20:24 -0800 Chance, By chance do you know what it would cost for spool of it and how much is on a spool. and where i might find one in the northwest. our local trader is out of such things. 3 Strings -----Original Message----- > > >I am a carpet layer by trade, and still have access to the linen thread >mentioned in your post. The thread is already waxed, and quite large. I >found it to large for cloth garments, but perfect for leather. It comes on >a wooden spool, and if memory serves me correctly, it is still being >manufacured by a company that has been in buiness since the mid 1700's. > >Cliff Tiffie >Rt. 1 Box 82C >Caddo, OK >74729 >580-924-4187 >--------------------- >Aux Ailments de Pays! > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Stitchin reply(Linen thread) Date: 14 Dec 1999 21:09:23 -0600 Most full service cities have a store listed under "leather findings" that supplies the shoe repair and upholstery trades. They will have in stock or can order linen thread in several weights (number of strands in the twist) and choice of right or left hand twist. Usually sold in 1 lb. spools for= several dollars. A lifetime supply for most folks. Buy a four strand spool then untwist working lengths of it as you use it -- divide in half then re twist as two strand for really proper sewing of garments. Twist multiple strands together for heavier work, the four strand is good on bags and such. I've never seen a spool of two strand available, I would have bought it. Waxing thread not only lubricates it but measurably strengthens it. Use 8 or 12 strand for the heaviest work. One spool of= four strand left hand twist serves my needs. =20 Hint: a drop spindle makes twisting and untwisting a lot easier. While you're there buy a few glovers needles, and a few harness needles in every size, look at the quality awl handles and blades they offer. Some of the tools are little changed over many centuries. A few cities have legendary leather suppliers like Lanworlan's (sp?) in Indianapolis. A lovely place to spend an afternoon. See if they have a good fid. John... At 06:20 PM 12/14/99 -0800, you wrote: >Chance, > > >By chance do you know what it would cost for spool of it and how much is on >a spool.=A0 and where i might find one in the northwest.=A0 our local= trader is >out of such things. > >3 Strings > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Chance Tiffie >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Tuesday, December 14, 1999 2:04 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Stitchin reply(Linen thread) > > >> >> >>I am a carpet layer by trade, and still have access to the linen thread >>mentioned in your post.=A0 The thread is already waxed, and quite large.= =A0 I >>found it to large for cloth garments, but perfect for leather.=A0 It comes= on >>a wooden spool, and if memory serves me correctly, it is still being >>manufacured by a company that has been in buiness since the mid 1700's. >> >>Cliff Tiffie >>Rt. 1 Box 82C >>Caddo, OK >>74729 >>580-924-4187 >>--------------------- >>Aux Ailments de Pays! >> >>______________________________________________________ >>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/ ~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/ ~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RangerSF5@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Need black powder rifle info Date: 14 Dec 1999 22:16:48 EST In a message dated 12/14/99 7:54:05 PM EST, GazeingCyot@cs.com writes: << move slow, stop real often and wait, etc. Doing that, I came around a curve in the trail and a bull elk was waiting for me. He knew I was coming, but thought I was another elk from the way I was walking. (being covered with elk urine helped me, too).You'll really enjoy muzzleloading, but nix the scope and it will be even more fun! >> OK,OK,OK,OK, I'll trash the scope. I did get my papers from the PD today for a change in my new address and i'll have my new card on Friday. But I had 2 questions i wanted answered. So far Nil. I found this server through a web site. What is the URL? I had to post on that site various things to qualify. I spent 4 months in Alaska and the Yukon and was short 640 miles from theNorth Pole so that got me qualified although some things I never did,eg,skin a deer,tan a hide. UMmmm Maybe I better take my center fire weapon question to another list. But ya'll all can send me the URL and i'll pass it to by buddies here. Happy Holidays to all Bob Bordentown,NJ Peace through superior fire power! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bvannoy Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Stitchin reply(Linen thread) Date: 14 Dec 1999 21:52:07 -0600 You might want to look in embroidery or quilting magazines for thread suppliers. Many carry the smaller linen thread for garment stiching. If you have a hard time finding the linen thread, contact me offline. There is a speciality store near me that has some. Chases Hawks. Chance Tiffie wrote: > I am a carpet layer by trade, and still have access to the linen thread > mentioned in your post. The thread is already waxed, and quite large. I > found it to large for cloth garments, but perfect for leather. It comes on > a wooden spool, and if memory serves me correctly, it is still being > manufacured by a company that has been in buiness since the mid 1700's. > > Cliff Tiffie > Rt. 1 Box 82C > Caddo, OK > 74729 > 580-924-4187 > --------------------- > Aux Ailments de Pays! > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hand stichin.. Date: 14 Dec 1999 21:20:45 -0800 Steve, When I started sewing leather I learned a neat trick from a friend. I would cut out my pieces of leather per the pattern. Then I took a fork (like the one you eat with) and cut off half the handle. I then sharpened the fork tines with a small file. I then bought one of those punch pads from Tandy Leather. This pad is placed under the leather so you don't dull your punch too quickly. I bought a pair of calipers with points on each side (like a compass that you used in geometry, except with two points instead of a pencil on one side-although a compass would work). I then lightly scribe, say a 1/4 inch line along the edge of the leather, running one point along the edge as a guide-dragging the other point along the leather to draw line. I then take my 4 prong punch -starting at one end I punch 4 holes-then place 1 tine in last hole, punch 3 more hole, etc...etc.... (stricking fork handle with hammer). I do this with each piece of leather where they will be sewn together. When done punching I have all my pieces of leather pre-punched. I now have made myself a 'kit' (like from tandy). I then take a length of waxed linen thread over 4 times as long as the line to be stitched. I thread two tapestry needles (rather dull, so won't cut thread) on the linen thread. Bring two ends of thread together and knot. bring needles to opposite sides of thread 'circle' so that the knot is equidistant between needles when needles are pulled away from each other. Now you are ready to saddle stitch. Put one needle through holes in leather to be sewn, and draw thread through to the knot. you should now have equal lengths of thread and a needle on either side of the leather pieces. Next put one needle through next hole and draw thread tight, now put other needle through same hole from the opposite side, draw thread tight. You should now have a binding stitch through first set of holes. Continue on down the line of holes, one needle then the other through the same hole, pull tight, next hole, etc.... It works best if you rotate needles every stitch, instead of running a line with one needle , than catching up with the other. One needle through hole, other needle through same hole from the other side. The needles will always be on opposite sides of the work from each other. The end product will be very strong, and you will have a straight, even stitch line. Folks will think you used a machine, because holes are so neatly place, evenly along the line. Almost all of my leather equipement is sewn with this method. Nothing ever breaks... Good luck, you to can sew with the best of them....... hope this helps.... Hardtack Your Second Amendment Rights protect ALL of your other Rights, Don't give up your Rights ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Stitchin reply(Linen thread) Date: 14 Dec 1999 21:45:19 +0000 Wayne & Terri wrote: > By chance do you know what it would cost for spool of it and how much is on > a spool. and where i might find one in the northwest. Wayne, You might try this sutler. He has what your looking for and at a reasonable price. His service is quick. I remain... http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charles P Webb Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hand stichin.. Date: 15 Dec 1999 18:11:17 -0700 The fork trick also works well on heavier leather, simply dampen the leather where you wish to do your stitching, use a pair of dividers (as you suggested) to create a guide line , then impress the fork tines as you discribed along this line into the dampened leather, the tines will leave a darkened slightly depressed mark. Using strips of corrugated cardboard stacked on top of each other to support the dampened marked leather. Use your awl to punch your stitching holes. The dampened leather also accepts the linen thread without cutting, and makes for a very tight stich. I have long purchased my linen thread from shoe repair or saddle shops. I prefer to buy six ply which is very easy to split into three ply or even down to one or two ply. I also prefer to wax the plys myself rather than purchase the pre-waxed linen. The thread I prefer is "Barbour's Pure Flax Sinew" and is made in the USA 916 yard Roll, #6 Cord. by Blue Mountain Industries, Blue Mountain, Alabama 36201 cost is around $30 frog plews. Respectfully submitted, C Webb > I took a fork (like the one you eat with) and cut off half the handle. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Stitchin reply(Linen thread) Date: 15 Dec 1999 18:45:31 -0700 At 06:20 PM 12/14/1999 -0800, you wrote: >By chance do you know what it would cost for spool of it and how much is on >a spool. and where i might find one in the northwest. our local trader is >out of such things. Saddlemakers and shoe makers use linen thread still. I got a big spool of 6 ply for $20. I sew a fair amount and can't imagine that I'll ever use it up. Allen Hall in Fort Hall country > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 16 Dec 1999 08:58:07 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BF47A3.ABB3EC80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have thought about what many of you have advised Steve concerning = using commercial leather or "holding out" for brain tanned and now I = want to put in my two cents.=20 I made a pair of breeches about ten years ago. They are basically a pair = of commercial leather levi's that I used artifical sinew to sew and man = did it look like it. I had a big curved needle that wore out my fingers = and took a lot more work than a simple awl. However, if I had waited for = brain tanned I would still be waiting. Now I did not have the good = advise that Steve has from his brothers, but I still think that he could = learn a few things from making and using even an inferior product. He = also gets to feed his addiction and when he does get good leather he = will be better prepared to use it. I am curious does the AMM accept outfits made from commercial buckskin = to meet its requirements to become a bossloper? Regards WYnn=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BF47A3.ABB3EC80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have thought about what many of you have advised Steve concerning = using=20 commercial leather or "holding out" for brain tanned and now I want to = put in my=20 two cents.

I made a pair of breeches about ten years ago. They are basically a = pair of=20 commercial leather levi’s that I used artifical sinew to sew and = man did it look=20 like it. I had a big curved needle that wore out my fingers and took a = lot more=20 work than a simple awl. However, if I had waited for brain tanned I = would still=20 be waiting. Now I did not have the good advise that Steve has from his = brothers,=20 but I still think that he could learn a few things from making and using = even an=20 inferior product. He also gets to feed his addiction and when he does = get good=20 leather he will be better prepared to use it.

I am curious does the AMM accept outfits made from commercial = buckskin to=20 meet its requirements to become a bossloper?

Regards WYnn

------=_NextPart_000_0028_01BF47A3.ABB3EC80-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Glenn Darilek" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Stitchin reply(Linen thread) Date: 16 Dec 1999 08:17:01 -0600 A word of caution - The only linen thread I could find locally was some natural linen embroidery thread. It was expensive for just a few yards wrapped around a cardboard "spool." It looked good, but every time I wash my linen shirt, the sewing needs repairs. I think the thread used for embroidry is for looks - not strength. Either that, or I don't know how to sew, which is also likely. Glenn Darilek Iron Burner ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Henry B. Crawford" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Stitchin reply(Linen thread) Date: 17 Dec 1999 08:21:58 -0500 >I am a carpet layer by trade, and still have access to the linen thread >mentioned in your post. The thread is already waxed, and quite large. I >found it to large for cloth garments, but perfect for leather. It comes on >a wooden spool, and if memory serves me correctly, it is still being >manufacured by a company that has been in business since the mid 1700's. > >Cliff Tiffie So, what was the name of the company, and where is (was) it? HBC **************************************** Henry B. Crawford Box 43191 Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because It's There ****** ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 17 Dec 1999 07:04:50 -0700 --------------3ED2E64A12FE3817F4DF9E87 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net id GAA13474 Wynn, You can use commerical leather garments for any level in the A.M.M. Most do change some time to brain tan, but not all. I have seen many pants in camp, some on high officials that were not brain tan. But they were still worn, used and greasy and in a style close to authenic. The main idea for our group is to grow, improve and get better- we all start out in various degrees of "what a mountain man is like". And if we waited for some one to join who already had all his equipment and guns in perfect authenicism, many of the great guys we have would not of made it in our ranks. mike. Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote: > I have thought about what many of you have advised Steve concerning > using commercial leather or "holding out" for brain tanned and now I > want to put in my two cents. > > I made a pair of breeches about ten years ago. They are basically a > pair of commercial leather levi=92s that I used artifical sinew to sew > and man did it look like it. I had a big curved needle that wore out > my fingers and took a lot more work than a simple awl. However, if I > had waited for brain tanned I would still be waiting. Now I did not > have the good advise that Steve has from his brothers, but I still > think that he could learn a few things from making and using even an > inferior product. He also gets to feed his addiction and when he does > get good leather he will be better prepared to use it. > > I am curious does the AMM accept outfits made from commercial buckskin > to meet its requirements to become a bossloper? > > Regards WYnn --------------3ED2E64A12FE3817F4DF9E87 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net id GAA13474 Wynn,
    You can use commerical leather garments for any level in the A.M.M. Most do change some time to brain tan, but not all. I have seen many pants in camp, some on high officials that were not brai= n tan. But they were still worn, used and greasy and in a style close to authenic. The main idea for our group is to grow, improve and get better- we all start out in various degrees of "what a mountain man is like". And if we waited for some one to join who already had all his equipment and guns in perfect authenicism, many of the great guys we have would not of made it in our ranks.
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =           mike.
Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote:
  I have thought about what many of you have advised Steve concerning using commercial leather or "holding out" for brain tanned and now I want to put in my two cents.

I made a pair of breeches about ten years ago. They are basically a pair of commercial leather levi=92s that I used artifical sinew to sew an= d man did it look like it. I had a big curved needle that wore out my finge= rs and took a lot more work than a simple awl. However, if I had waited for brain tanned I would still be waiting. Now I did not have the good advise that Steve has from his brothers, but I still think that he could learn a few things from making and using even an inferior product. He also gets to feed his addiction and when he does get good leather he will be better prepared to use it.

I am curious does the AMM accept outfits made from commercial buckskin to meet its requirements to become a bossloper?

Regards WYnn

  --------------3ED2E64A12FE3817F4DF9E87-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Stitchin reply(Linen thread) Date: 17 Dec 1999 11:12:00 EST In a message dated 12/17/1999 6:19:20 AM Pacific Standard Time, llsi@texas.net writes: << I think the thread used for embroidry is for looks - not strength. Either that, or I don't know how to sew, which is also likely. >> Embroidry thread isn't very strong. I've seen some pretty terrible stitching hold together just fine even with cotton thread. Linen is supposed to be stronger than cotton. Unless you're stitching is much worse than mine, I'd say it was the thread. NM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 17 Dec 1999 11:19:28 EST amm1616@earthlink.net writes: > And if we > waited for some one to join who already had all his equipment and guns > in perfect authenicism, many of the great guys we have would not of made > it in our ranks. If such a person who already had all his equipment and guns wanted to join, would he then be expected to meet all the requirements over again during his probationary period; or, would he receive a waiver. Many might not want to have to walk the trail over again. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 17 Dec 1999 09:50:56 +0000 ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: > > amm1616@earthlink.net writes: > > And if we > > waited for some one to join who already had all his equipment and guns > > in perfect authenicism, many of the great guys we have would not of made > > it in our ranks. Dave Kanger offers: > > If such a person who already had all his equipment and guns wanted to join, > would he then be expected to meet all the requirements over again during his > probationary period; or, would he receive a waiver. > > Many might not want to have to walk the trail over again. Brothers and Friends, This thread sorta got started with some questions from an Associate member up here in Wa. I got with him privately and established where he was at and what/where he was interested in going. His desire was to pursue membership in the AMM and with his Associate membership thought he was on the path. I told him that it was my understanding that membership was by invitation to worthy men of good will who were new to the "Game" but wanted to grow, or "Old Hands" that wanted to continue to grow, had never joined yet would benefit and be welcome in the Brotherhood. I advised him to take what he already had and build on it such that he would have a "kit" that would allow him to move beyond where he is right now (just able to fit in to a Shoot/Rendezvous) and actually get to a point where he could "get on the ground" with AMM'ers in the Northwest Brigade and see if they and what they did was what he wanted to do and lastly but not the least let them see if they felt he was one who merited an invitation to join and start the process to full membership. We have friends in our circle up here who have gone to ground with us regularly but have no desire to join thought they would qualify easily. They are always welcome in our camps as I was before I joined. Steve was not advised that he had to be in "Full Brain Tan From Head to Toes" to be accepted at his first ever AMM event/camp but rather to do what he could to come up with a full set of clothing that would do him in good stead in a winter camp and should he or we decide he would continue the journey, be that much closer to completing the basic requirements for Bossloper. I advised that wool would see him into a winter camp just fine. I personally would prefer that a new hand or old hand wear wool, or other period cloth clothing rather than spend time and money on commercial leathers that he will some day wish he had not bought. Few of our heroes' went to the mountains fully in buckskin the first time. I came to membership in the AMM not that many winters back as one who had been doing it the right way and had done most of the basic requirements for Bossloper many times over for the past 25/30 years. As a personal challenge to myself I made over many of my personal clothing items by hand, redid many of the first 15 requirements and did not ask for a waiver. I have helped to sponsor several new brothers into my party in the past couple years who have also been accomplished mountaineers for decades themselves but just never felt the need to join. They are not asking for any waivers but are redoing the requirements that all probationary "Pilgrims" are asked to do just as I did. A new prospective member with nothing but great potential for becoming a valuable member of AMM need not come to the door with all the skills and gear of a Bossloper or Hiverano. But I think it a disservice to such a fellow to advise him to take shortcuts when he will eventually need to or want to have done it right. So the prospective candidate (who is BTW, no stranger to the wilderness or wildlife or trapping) but has little in the way of proper camp gear and winter clothing was advised to make it of wool/other appropriate cloth and make it by hand if possible to get that basic requirement out of the way and under his belt and more importantly get himself geared up so he could come out and play as our guest. BTW, our Brigade has discussed this situation and from the Brigade Booshway down feel it not inappropriate for a guest with absolutely no proper gear to be invited into camp "to see what it's all about". I think the fellow in question would have felt uncomfortable wearing some period items of clothing under his down parka and walking around in Sorel Packs thus the advice given. Other situations would have called for a different approach. I look forward to spending time with this individual "on the Ground" and strongly believe that the AMM will grow strong on new blood or will dry up and die for the lack of it. I also feel that it's basic requirements are worthy of all to accomplish and continue to accomplish from the newest member to the oldest. To do otherwise is to cheapen the AMM and cheat ourselves and our fellows. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' #1719 Clerk, Wilson Price Hunt Party, NW Brigade AMM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Baird.Rick@orbital-lsg.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 17 Dec 1999 11:45:29 -0700 Cap't Lahti, Eloquent my good man, simply eloquent. Now shameless plug for education on braintan. There are books on the market that are excellent for the beginner. You can tap into lots of good stuff on braintan.com or NativeTech.com. There are folks who will give classes you can attend. I guess what I really want to say is, you can make this stuff yourself and DON'T BELIEVE THE HORROR STORIES...it just ain't that hard to do. Or send me your money and I'll get you some fine hides from somewhere or other. Rick Baird Along the Heely ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: MtMan-List: My view Date: 17 Dec 1999 13:24:52 -0600 In Novemeber I told you about watching a six point white tail chasing a doe out my window. Now it's December (but where's the snow? we just have a skim), and with the single digit temps we've been having the lakes have been icing over. The result is when I get to work I watch clouds of Mallards coming into the Chippewa River, I don't think there is anything as pretty as waterfowl setting their wings to land. About 10 am lines of honkers start moving in. Still see the deer moving, there was a doe in a little piece of woods when we went to lunch. I just saw a Bald Eagle fly up into a white pine and it's already drawn a raven to it. We just got our cable realigned so that we don't need a box to get the History channel, sat down after work on Thursday, switched it on and watched a show on George Rodger Clark, last night was Tecumsah, I can see where I'll be most nights from 5-6pm (central). from the ouiskonsin territory Jim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Stitchin reply(Linen thread) Date: 17 Dec 1999 14:04:05 PST >So, what was the name of the company, and where is (was) it? As was stated in the original post that inspired my response, this type of thread was used for carpet repair. Actually it was used to make the seams in carpet, using a "crows foot" stitch from the back of the carpet. With the invention of seaming tape, this practice was all but abandoned. The only reason I am acquainted with it, is because my father was a carpet layer, and kept a roll along with needles in his tool box. The roll I have of his, has a remnant of the label remaining. It is marked N. Ireland. Crain (a distibutor of tools and supplies for the trade) still carries the product, and years ago I ordered a six spool box. The box had the complete information concerning the company who were quite proud of their heritage. Regretfully, as I used the thread for various projects, I discarded the box. However with the off-list requests I have received for this particular type of thread, I will be ordering more, and will be happy to report the information regarding the manufacturer. As others have reported, linen thread is available in different weights, thickness, and strands, and is available through a variety of vendors. This particular thread is labled from the supplier, as "premium #18 rigid waxed linen thread." When they say waxed, they REALLY mean waxed. There has been requests for the cost of this thread, and the amount on a roll. The roll's are labeled as being "4 oz" no other measurements are shown, I will say that 6 rolls have lasted about 12 years, and I have given a couple of them away. As for price, I will let you know, when I receive an invoice for my most recent supply order. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 17 Dec 1999 17:56:43 EST In a message dated 12/17/99 9:50:01 AM, lahtirog@gte.net writes: <> Ho the List, Ah...nicely said Capt. Lahti. I started a couple lines awhile back on brain tan as compared to commercial brain tan, and how to hand stitch.. The consensus seems to be, hold out for real brain tan, and in the mean time hand make your clothes of wool or other period material. I surely do appreciate all the input. Capt Lahti has taken the time to answer all of my questions (some not to bright), review a list of what I have and where I want to go, and freely offered suggestions on what I might do to get there. With only some confusion on his part as to who was the prettiest in a jpg I sent (me or a dead bear), he has gone way out of his way to get this Pilgrum on the right path. If the Mountaineers in the AMM are much like him, I'd be proud to be a member... Finally, for all you folks that contacted me off-line wanting DNA samples of the varmit we poked, ah........... Ymos, Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 17 Dec 1999 15:29:01 -0700 Capt. One of the bad things about this email is that you can't sit down with the person you are talking to and spend a good time discussing an item. Like this. There is no need to justify yourself, every person who is invited to a A.M.M. camp is the sole responsibility of their sponsor. My only question is: Why not have Steve wait till a warmer camp and start? It would give him more time to have things ready and see what he needs to improve. I don't think by telling him that it is ok to come in commercial tanned leather anyone is cheapening or lowering the standards of our organization. Commercial tanned leather was on the frontier and sounding like he is just starting on a long process- will get him on the ground and having a functional outfit to wear. Chances are he will change his outfit a few times before settling in on what is comfortable. functional and right for him. Brain tan is the best ( if done by a good tanner). He might even want to try to tan his own leathers for a the second outfit and in the mean time have a useable set to wear. The A.M.M. should set its' goals high and it's members be like wise, but let our probationary members be pilgrims. Ones that want to learn, with potential and of good character. If he is being pushed to start as soon as possible (or thinks he is in a hurry), patience might be a good thing to learn, specially when involved with the A.M.M. mike moore booshway, Jim Baker Party (Colorado) staff writer, "On The Trail" (western fur trade) R Lahti wrote: > ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: > > > > amm1616@earthlink.net writes: > > > And if we > > > waited for some one to join who already had all his equipment and guns > > > in perfect authenicism, many of the great guys we have would not of made > > > it in our ranks. > > Dave Kanger offers: > > > > If such a person who already had all his equipment and guns wanted to join, > > would he then be expected to meet all the requirements over again during his > > probationary period; or, would he receive a waiver. > > > > Many might not want to have to walk the trail over again. > > Brothers and Friends, > > This thread sorta got started with some questions from an Associate > member up here in Wa. I got with him privately and established where he > was at and what/where he was interested in going. His desire was to > pursue membership in the AMM and with his Associate membership thought > he was on the path. I told him that it was my understanding that > membership was by invitation to worthy men of good will who were new to > the "Game" but wanted to grow, or "Old Hands" that wanted to continue to > grow, had never joined yet would benefit and be welcome in the > Brotherhood. I advised him to take what he already had and build on it > such that he would have a "kit" that would allow him to move beyond > where he is right now (just able to fit in to a Shoot/Rendezvous) and > actually get to a point where he could "get on the ground" with AMM'ers > in the Northwest Brigade and see if they and what they did was what he > wanted to do and lastly but not the least let them see if they felt he > was one who merited an invitation to join and start the process to full > membership. We have friends in our circle up here who have gone to > ground with us regularly but have no desire to join thought they would > qualify easily. They are always welcome in our camps as I was before I > joined. > > Steve was not advised that he had to be in "Full Brain Tan From Head to > Toes" to be accepted at his first ever AMM event/camp but rather to do > what he could to come up with a full set of clothing that would do him > in good stead in a winter camp and should he or we decide he would > continue the journey, be that much closer to completing the basic > requirements for Bossloper. I advised that wool would see him into a > winter camp just fine. I personally would prefer that a new hand or old > hand wear wool, or other period cloth clothing rather than spend time > and money on commercial leathers that he will some day wish he had not > bought. Few of our heroes' went to the mountains fully in buckskin the > first time. > > I came to membership in the AMM not that many winters back as one who > had been doing it the right way and had done most of the basic > requirements for Bossloper many times over for the past 25/30 years. As > a personal challenge to myself I made over many of my personal clothing > items by hand, redid many of the first 15 requirements and did not ask > for a waiver. I have helped to sponsor several new brothers into my > party in the past couple years who have also been accomplished > mountaineers for decades themselves but just never felt the need to > join. They are not asking for any waivers but are redoing the > requirements that all probationary "Pilgrims" are asked to do just as I > did. > > A new prospective member with nothing but great potential for becoming a > valuable member of AMM need not come to the door with all the skills and > gear of a Bossloper or Hiverano. But I think it a disservice to such a > fellow to advise him to take shortcuts when he will eventually need to > or want to have done it right. So the prospective candidate (who is BTW, > no stranger to the wilderness or wildlife or trapping) but has little in > the way of proper camp gear and winter clothing was advised to make it > of wool/other appropriate cloth and make it by hand if possible to get > that basic requirement out of the way and under his belt and more > importantly get himself geared up so he could come out and play as our > guest. > > BTW, our Brigade has discussed this situation and from the Brigade > Booshway down feel it not inappropriate for a guest with absolutely no > proper gear to be invited into camp "to see what it's all about". I > think the fellow in question would have felt uncomfortable wearing some > period items of clothing under his down parka and walking around in > Sorel Packs thus the advice given. Other situations would have called > for a different approach. > > I look forward to spending time with this individual "on the Ground" and > strongly believe that the AMM will grow strong on new blood or will dry > up and die for the lack of it. I also feel that it's basic requirements > are worthy of all to accomplish and continue to accomplish from the > newest member to the oldest. To do otherwise is to cheapen the AMM and > cheat ourselves and our fellows. I remain... > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' #1719 > Clerk, Wilson Price Hunt Party, NW Brigade > AMM > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan for amm membership Date: 17 Dec 1999 19:06:45 -0500 well put cpt Lathi---couldnt have said it any better--- Hawk On Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:50:56 +0000 R Lahti writes: > > > ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: > > > > amm1616@earthlink.net writes: > > > And if we > > > waited for some one to join who already had all his equipment > and guns > > > in perfect authenicism, many of the great guys we have would > not of made > > > it in our ranks. > > Dave Kanger offers: > > > > If such a person who already had all his equipment and guns wanted > to join, > > would he then be expected to meet all the requirements over again > during his > > probationary period; or, would he receive a waiver. > > > > Many might not want to have to walk the trail over again. > > Brothers and Friends, > > This thread sorta got started with some questions from an Associate > member up here in Wa. I got with him privately and established where > he > was at and what/where he was interested in going. His desire was to > pursue membership in the AMM and with his Associate membership > thought > he was on the path. I told him that it was my understanding that > membership was by invitation to worthy men of good will who were new > to > the "Game" but wanted to grow, or "Old Hands" that wanted to > continue to > grow, had never joined yet would benefit and be welcome in the > Brotherhood. I advised him to take what he already had and build on > it > such that he would have a "kit" that would allow him to move beyond > where he is right now (just able to fit in to a Shoot/Rendezvous) > and > actually get to a point where he could "get on the ground" with > AMM'ers > in the Northwest Brigade and see if they and what they did was what > he > wanted to do and lastly but not the least let them see if they felt > he > was one who merited an invitation to join and start the process to > full > membership. We have friends in our circle up here who have gone to > ground with us regularly but have no desire to join thought they > would > qualify easily. They are always welcome in our camps as I was before > I > joined. > > Steve was not advised that he had to be in "Full Brain Tan From Head > to > Toes" to be accepted at his first ever AMM event/camp but rather to > do > what he could to come up with a full set of clothing that would do > him > in good stead in a winter camp and should he or we decide he would > continue the journey, be that much closer to completing the basic > requirements for Bossloper. I advised that wool would see him into a > winter camp just fine. I personally would prefer that a new hand or > old > hand wear wool, or other period cloth clothing rather than spend > time > and money on commercial leathers that he will some day wish he had > not > bought. Few of our heroes' went to the mountains fully in buckskin > the > first time. > > I came to membership in the AMM not that many winters back as one > who > had been doing it the right way and had done most of the basic > requirements for Bossloper many times over for the past 25/30 years. > As > a personal challenge to myself I made over many of my personal > clothing > items by hand, redid many of the first 15 requirements and did not > ask > for a waiver. I have helped to sponsor several new brothers into my > party in the past couple years who have also been accomplished > mountaineers for decades themselves but just never felt the need to > join. They are not asking for any waivers but are redoing the > requirements that all probationary "Pilgrims" are asked to do just > as I > did. > > A new prospective member with nothing but great potential for > becoming a > valuable member of AMM need not come to the door with all the skills > and > gear of a Bossloper or Hiverano. But I think it a disservice to such > a > fellow to advise him to take shortcuts when he will eventually need > to > or want to have done it right. So the prospective candidate (who is > BTW, > no stranger to the wilderness or wildlife or trapping) but has > little in > the way of proper camp gear and winter clothing was advised to make > it > of wool/other appropriate cloth and make it by hand if possible to > get > that basic requirement out of the way and under his belt and more > importantly get himself geared up so he could come out and play as > our > guest. > > BTW, our Brigade has discussed this situation and from the Brigade > Booshway down feel it not inappropriate for a guest with absolutely > no > proper gear to be invited into camp "to see what it's all about". I > think the fellow in question would have felt uncomfortable wearing > some > period items of clothing under his down parka and walking around in > Sorel Packs thus the advice given. Other situations would have > called > for a different approach. > > I look forward to spending time with this individual "on the Ground" > and > strongly believe that the AMM will grow strong on new blood or will > dry > up and die for the lack of it. I also feel that it's basic > requirements > are worthy of all to accomplish and continue to accomplish from the > newest member to the oldest. To do otherwise is to cheapen the AMM > and > cheat ourselves and our fellows. I remain... > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' #1719 > Clerk, Wilson Price Hunt Party, NW Brigade > AMM > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ___________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to get Web access? Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne & Terri" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 17 Dec 1999 18:26:54 -0800 Mike Moore, you have hit the nail on the head. The Pilgrim has a year to get his shit together in one sock, let him work into it. It ain't going to hurt a damn thing for him using commercial tanned leather while in his pilgrim period. When he gets to be a bossoloper and has his first brain tan then he will appreciate them a lot more. Hell, if we all had out shit together when we were pilgrims then we would not have needed a probationary period then would we. and if we had our shit together then we would all be hivaronos now wouldn't we. well I guess I have stood on the box enough. May you be y2k. I am, got several cans of black powder and the wood shed is full. You all have a good Xmas 3-strings ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 17 Dec 1999 19:42:35 -0700 Reply to: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Where does it say that all requirements have to be met after being invited = to join the AMM? = DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants R Lahti wrote: > > >ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: >> = >> amm1616@earthlink.net writes: >> > And if we >> > waited for some one to join who already had all his equipment and = guns >> > in perfect authenicism, many of the great guys we have would not of = made >> > it in our ranks. > >Dave Kanger offers: >> = >> If such a person who already had all his equipment and guns wanted to = join, >> would he then be expected to meet all the requirements over again = during his >> probationary period; or, would he receive a waiver. >> = >> Many might not want to have to walk the trail over again. > >Brothers and Friends, > >This thread sorta got started with some questions from an Associate >member up here in Wa. I got with him privately and established where he >was at and what/where he was interested in going. His desire was to >pursue membership in the AMM and with his Associate membership thought >he was on the path. I told him that it was my understanding that >membership was by invitation to worthy men of good will who were new to >the "Game" but wanted to grow, or "Old Hands" that wanted to continue to >grow, had never joined yet would benefit and be welcome in the >Brotherhood. I advised him to take what he already had and build on it >such that he would have a "kit" that would allow him to move beyond >where he is right now (just able to fit in to a Shoot/Rendezvous) and >actually get to a point where he could "get on the ground" with AMM'ers >in the Northwest Brigade and see if they and what they did was what he >wanted to do and lastly but not the least let them see if they felt he >was one who merited an invitation to join and start the process to full >membership. We have friends in our circle up here who have gone to >ground with us regularly but have no desire to join thought they would >qualify easily. They are always welcome in our camps as I was before I >joined. > >Steve was not advised that he had to be in "Full Brain Tan From Head to >Toes" to be accepted at his first ever AMM event/camp but rather to do >what he could to come up with a full set of clothing that would do him >in good stead in a winter camp and should he or we decide he would >continue the journey, be that much closer to completing the basic >requirements for Bossloper. I advised that wool would see him into a >winter camp just fine. I personally would prefer that a new hand or old >hand wear wool, or other period cloth clothing rather than spend time >and money on commercial leathers that he will some day wish he had not >bought. Few of our heroes' went to the mountains fully in buckskin the >first time. > >I came to membership in the AMM not that many winters back as one who >had been doing it the right way and had done most of the basic >requirements for Bossloper many times over for the past 25/30 years. As >a personal challenge to myself I made over many of my personal clothing >items by hand, redid many of the first 15 requirements and did not ask >for a waiver. I have helped to sponsor several new brothers into my >party in the past couple years who have also been accomplished >mountaineers for decades themselves but just never felt the need to >join. They are not asking for any waivers but are redoing the >requirements that all probationary "Pilgrims" are asked to do just as I >did. = > >A new prospective member with nothing but great potential for becoming a >valuable member of AMM need not come to the door with all the skills and >gear of a Bossloper or Hiverano. But I think it a disservice to such a >fellow to advise him to take shortcuts when he will eventually need to >or want to have done it right. So the prospective candidate (who is BTW, >no stranger to the wilderness or wildlife or trapping) but has little in >the way of proper camp gear and winter clothing was advised to make it >of wool/other appropriate cloth and make it by hand if possible to get >that basic requirement out of the way and under his belt and more >importantly get himself geared up so he could come out and play as our >guest. = > >BTW, our Brigade has discussed this situation and from the Brigade >Booshway down feel it not inappropriate for a guest with absolutely no >proper gear to be invited into camp "to see what it's all about". I >think the fellow in question would have felt uncomfortable wearing some >period items of clothing under his down parka and walking around in >Sorel Packs thus the advice given. Other situations would have called >for a different approach. = > >I look forward to spending time with this individual "on the Ground" and >strongly believe that the AMM will grow strong on new blood or will dry >up and die for the lack of it. I also feel that it's basic requirements >are worthy of all to accomplish and continue to accomplish from the >newest member to the oldest. To do otherwise is to cheapen the AMM and >cheat ourselves and our fellows. I remain... > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' #1719 = >Clerk, Wilson Price Hunt Party, NW Brigade >AMM > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > > Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with = ESMTP > (SMTPD32-5.01) id A7BC9A00EA; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:49:48 -0600 > Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #2) > id 11z1Ur-000218-00 > for hist_text-gooutt@lists.xmission.com; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:48:53 -= 0700 > Received: from [207.115.153.21] (helo=3Dsmtppop2.gte.net) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) > id 11z1Up-000213-00 > for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:48:51 -0700 > Received: from gte.net (1Cust12.tnt6.kennewick.wa.da.uu.net [63.13.8.12])= > by smtppop2.gte.net with ESMTP > for ; id LAA1696657 > Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:47:22 -0600 (CST) > Message-ID: <385A0780.49B91B86@gte.net> > Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:50:56 +0000 > From: R Lahti > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-DIAL (Win98; U) > X-Accept-Language: en > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan > References: <0.71b44f4b.258bbc90@aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > X-RCPT-TO: > X-UIDL: 4211 > Status: U > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 17 Dec 1999 21:26:56 +0000 Mike Moore wrote: > > Capt. > One of the bad things about this email is that you can't sit down with the > person you are talking to and spend a good time discussing an item. Like this. Mike, Glad you thought my remarks worth repeating. But they are just my thoughts and certainly not the last word. Probably the worst part of talking this way is not being able to express feelings and not being able to immediately rephrase for better understanding. So there is no mistake about what I wrote, I was not justifying anything, I assure you. I thought I was clarifying that Steve and I have been in private conversation on this broad subject and I have been providing him with my thoughts and opinions and my best advise as I felt would meet his particular situation. I am not his sponsor but would welcome him as my guest. As such, I would of course take responsibility for him. He has read what I have written to him privately and in general to the list about how I view different things and understands what I said and where I am coming from. My only question is: Why not have > Steve wait till a warmer camp and start? It would give him more time to have > things ready and see what he needs to improve. He is welcome to wait until warmer weather. He is no stranger to the cold though and only needs to know what it would take to deal with a NW winter camp to participate in comfort and not feel out of place. I sense from our talks that he does not wish to take shortcuts but would appreciate getting a good start on "buckskinning" of any kind. He is unique and other new people might be advised differently. I don't recall telling him or anyone that commercial tanned leather cheapens or lowers the standards of our organization. What I have said and what I have heard others say is that it can be an expensive and unsatisfying alternative. I have no quarrel with commercially tanned leather for authenticity's sake. I personally don't think the commercially tanned "golden buckskin" bears any resemblance to any commercial product available in the days of the Fur Trade. From what I have read much leather of a commercial ilk was made and moved west. Brain Tan is not the only leather ever worn by a frontiersman, just not "Chrome Tanned Golden Buckskin". Another post posed the question of whether a candidate would be rejected were he in such commercial leather. If it were my place to do so, I certainly would not reject him on that basis but it is not my place to say whether it is the policy of the AMM to make that type of negative judgment. If asked I will say what I think is the better way to go though. If someone wishes to wear such material after so many have advised as to it's negative qualities then they may have at it. I thought the bottom line in this organization was the man not what he was wearing, in any case. I am even privy to a simple process that will turn such leather into an almost satisfactory material with almost the same properties, look and feel of brain tan. It will be better but still not brain tan. But why bother unless there is no alternative? If someone wishes to change their outfit a few times before settling in on what is comfortable I surely would not criticize. I certainly have done that many times over myself. I wish someone had taken me by the ear many years ago and talked to me like a Dutch Uncle and convinced me how much money I was ultimately going to waste on chrome tan, split cow and etc. before I finally did my first brain tan (which was not a pretty sight but infinitely better than the substitutes that had gone before and much more personally satisfying). Brain tan is the best even if done by a first timer. It is a skill we all should have and endorse but it is not for everyone to be a tanner nor is it the only material that will serve well. It is not even a requirement that one be able to brain tan. It is only one of many skills to choose from. I heartily endorse the use of period fabrics and utilize them myself where they serve best. I am fortunate to have some brain tan articles but there are alternatives and period correct alternatives at that. As I said, no one is expected to come in full brain tan. Not in my camp anyway. And a new person who wishes to see what it's all about is always welcome dressed however. Any person who asks my advise or opinion gets my best answer and all the alternatives. They deserve no less. There is nothing wrong with letting probationary members be pilgrims. There is nothing wrong with trying to guide them in productive paths either. I have seen new people go from talking about it for a year to having a basic kit in two weeks so they would fit in, as they wished to do on their first trip, realize much more enjoyment than they even expected and leave the weekend so fired that their progress in the next few months was outstanding. They were not pushed. No one is pushed to do anything he is not up to nor should they be. Patience is a virtue and is to be encouraged. Our Brigade practices the informal policy of camping with a new person somewhere around three times before extending a formal invitation to join. That can take patience. Are we still not in agreement? Certainly a pilgrim/probationary has a year to get his "shit" together if he wishes to take it. It ain't going to hurt a damned thing for him to use commercial chrome tan while in his pilgrim period. If that is what he's got then fine. If he doesn't even have that and yet thinks he should be in full leathers and asks what is thought about such before he goes out and buy's it, I submit there isn't a damned thing wrong with advising him that he surely can find alternatives and is welcome to wait until he can make or buy what would work the best. When any of us finally get our brain tan we appreciate it all the more for the wait and the functionality whether we are Bossloper or not. Hell if we all had our "shit together when we were pilgrims.....hell we are all still pilgrims or resting on our laurels and going no where. Even the Hiveranno's. Unless I am not reading it right, the by-laws do not require anyone to complete all requirements "after" being invited to join. There are certain basic requirements that have to be met before being eligible for membership, a certain number of things that must be met by the end of the first year and a minimum number of the 20 that have to be met by the end of the second year. Although this forum does not take the place of setting around a campfire it is good to share thoughts as best can be done by thoughtful men of good will. Such discussions refine and clarify and sometimes change how we think and what we believe. I remain.... A "pilgrim" and YMOS Capt. Lahti' "Aux Aliments de Pays" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronald Schrotter Date: 18 Dec 1999 07:34:44 -0800 (PST) Just caught up with the site after being away for a time, and thought I would put in my 2 cents worth.It has been quite a while since I was on the ground with my brothers, but I remember when Thompson Center were dirty words to the AMM. There are certainly more authentic looking guns on the market in the same price range, especially on trade blankets at any decent 'vous. The only black powder guns I am familiar with that carried scopes were civil war sniper rifles, and they were way too heavy to traipse the woods with. If you can't get within 100 yds, you ain't huntin', just shootin! Brain tanned leather is truly a wonder to behold, but is not the only alternative. Many of us in the past used commercial leather or wool, and got by just fine. I DO know how, but circumstances prohibit me from doing it on a regular basis. To those who do their own brain-tan, my utmost respect, as to those who can do decent beading and quill work. As in the old days, these can be traded for or bought. Not all of our heroes were accomplished in these fields, and most likely relied more on their native american friends to supply such items. I must admit that it has been too long since I was associated with AMM, and don't even know what the current requirements for membership and advancement are, but the quality of the man, not his outfit should be what he is judged by. Finally, on the subject of thread, a lot of time can be saved by tying sleeves and legs with the leather scraps left from trimming, spaced several inches apart. Judging from what I have seen in museums it is authentic and looks good too. Well, enough of this palaver, may you all have a good holiday season, and may your camp be warm and happy. Dog, Gabe's Hole Brigade __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GHickman@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 18 Dec 1999 10:54:14 EST lahtirog@gte.net writes: << I am even privy to a simple process that will turn such leather into an almost satisfactory material with almost the same properties, look and feel of brain tan. >> Capt. Lahti, I am in the process of getting my brain tan outfit together, which will take some time. In the interim what is the simple process to turn my current leather into "almost satisfactory material". Thanks. I always enjoy your posts, experience and philosophy on these discussions. YMOS Ghosting Wolf ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 18 Dec 1999 08:35:55 -0800 Don, You make a very interesting point. John Funk ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, December 17, 1999 6:42 PM Reply to: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Where does it say that all requirements have to be met after being invited to join the AMM? DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants R Lahti wrote: > > >ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: >> >> amm1616@earthlink.net writes: >> > And if we >> > waited for some one to join who already had all his equipment and guns >> > in perfect authenicism, many of the great guys we have would not of made >> > it in our ranks. > >Dave Kanger offers: >> >> If such a person who already had all his equipment and guns wanted to join, >> would he then be expected to meet all the requirements over again during his >> probationary period; or, would he receive a waiver. >> >> Many might not want to have to walk the trail over again. > >Brothers and Friends, > >This thread sorta got started with some questions from an Associate >member up here in Wa. I got with him privately and established where he >was at and what/where he was interested in going. His desire was to >pursue membership in the AMM and with his Associate membership thought >he was on the path. I told him that it was my understanding that >membership was by invitation to worthy men of good will who were new to >the "Game" but wanted to grow, or "Old Hands" that wanted to continue to >grow, had never joined yet would benefit and be welcome in the >Brotherhood. I advised him to take what he already had and build on it >such that he would have a "kit" that would allow him to move beyond >where he is right now (just able to fit in to a Shoot/Rendezvous) and >actually get to a point where he could "get on the ground" with AMM'ers >in the Northwest Brigade and see if they and what they did was what he >wanted to do and lastly but not the least let them see if they felt he >was one who merited an invitation to join and start the process to full >membership. We have friends in our circle up here who have gone to >ground with us regularly but have no desire to join thought they would >qualify easily. They are always welcome in our camps as I was before I >joined. > >Steve was not advised that he had to be in "Full Brain Tan From Head to >Toes" to be accepted at his first ever AMM event/camp but rather to do >what he could to come up with a full set of clothing that would do him >in good stead in a winter camp and should he or we decide he would >continue the journey, be that much closer to completing the basic >requirements for Bossloper. I advised that wool would see him into a >winter camp just fine. I personally would prefer that a new hand or old >hand wear wool, or other period cloth clothing rather than spend time >and money on commercial leathers that he will some day wish he had not >bought. Few of our heroes' went to the mountains fully in buckskin the >first time. > >I came to membership in the AMM not that many winters back as one who >had been doing it the right way and had done most of the basic >requirements for Bossloper many times over for the past 25/30 years. As >a personal challenge to myself I made over many of my personal clothing >items by hand, redid many of the first 15 requirements and did not ask >for a waiver. I have helped to sponsor several new brothers into my >party in the past couple years who have also been accomplished >mountaineers for decades themselves but just never felt the need to >join. They are not asking for any waivers but are redoing the >requirements that all probationary "Pilgrims" are asked to do just as I >did. > >A new prospective member with nothing but great potential for becoming a >valuable member of AMM need not come to the door with all the skills and >gear of a Bossloper or Hiverano. But I think it a disservice to such a >fellow to advise him to take shortcuts when he will eventually need to >or want to have done it right. So the prospective candidate (who is BTW, >no stranger to the wilderness or wildlife or trapping) but has little in >the way of proper camp gear and winter clothing was advised to make it >of wool/other appropriate cloth and make it by hand if possible to get >that basic requirement out of the way and under his belt and more >importantly get himself geared up so he could come out and play as our >guest. > >BTW, our Brigade has discussed this situation and from the Brigade >Booshway down feel it not inappropriate for a guest with absolutely no >proper gear to be invited into camp "to see what it's all about". I >think the fellow in question would have felt uncomfortable wearing some >period items of clothing under his down parka and walking around in >Sorel Packs thus the advice given. Other situations would have called >for a different approach. > >I look forward to spending time with this individual "on the Ground" and >strongly believe that the AMM will grow strong on new blood or will dry >up and die for the lack of it. I also feel that it's basic requirements >are worthy of all to accomplish and continue to accomplish from the >newest member to the oldest. To do otherwise is to cheapen the AMM and >cheat ourselves and our fellows. I remain... > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' #1719 >Clerk, Wilson Price Hunt Party, NW Brigade >AMM > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > > Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with ESMTP > (SMTPD32-5.01) id A7BC9A00EA; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:49:48 -0600 > Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #2) > id 11z1Ur-000218-00 > for hist_text-gooutt@lists.xmission.com; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:48:53 -0700 > Received: from [207.115.153.21] (helo=smtppop2.gte.net) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) > id 11z1Up-000213-00 > for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:48:51 -0700 > Received: from gte.net (1Cust12.tnt6.kennewick.wa.da.uu.net [63.13.8.12]) > by smtppop2.gte.net with ESMTP > for ; id LAA1696657 > Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:47:22 -0600 (CST) > Message-ID: <385A0780.49B91B86@gte.net> > Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:50:56 +0000 > From: R Lahti > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-DIAL (Win98; U) > X-Accept-Language: en > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan > References: <0.71b44f4b.258bbc90@aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > X-RCPT-TO: > X-UIDL: 4211 > Status: U > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 18 Dec 1999 12:16:58 -0600 At 10:54 AM 12/18/99 -0500, you wrote: > >I am in the process of getting my brain tan outfit together, which will= take=20 >some time. In the interim what is the simple process to turn my current=20 >leather into "almost satisfactory material". Thanks. I always enjoy your=20 >posts, experience and philosophy on these discussions. > >YMOS >Ghosting Wolf > Get out in the woods and get greasy dirty. Works every time. John... John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 18 Dec 1999 13:46:04 -0500 Hey all, This is how we work it here in the Brigade.(in ref. to Dave Kanger's quiestion on tasks) When you start as a Pilgrim, you start cold, Period....And do 'em as you go, if you have done 'em before you were invited to join the AMM, do 'em again.... I have and I know of many other Brothers that have repeated their requirements over and over, just due to the nature of their wanderings.. The more you do it, the better you are at it.. Thanks Dennis Miles AMM#1622 Hiveranno Party Chief, Doc Newell Party Ohio -- "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 18 Dec 1999 14:24:42 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, December 18, 1999 1:46 PM > Hey all, > This is how we work it here in the Brigade.(in ref. to Dave Kanger's quiestion > on tasks) > When you start as a Pilgrim, you start cold, Period....And do 'em as you go, if > you have done 'em before you were invited to join the AMM, do 'em again.... > I have and I know of many other Brothers that have repeated their requirements > over and over, just due to the nature of their wanderings.. The more you do it, > the better you are at it.. > Thanks > Dennis Miles > AMM#1622 Hiveranno > Party Chief, Doc Newell Party > Ohio > > -- > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > Period Knives & Iron Accoutrements > http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Justbuglebaby@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: any other mountain man lists on history? Date: 18 Dec 1999 14:35:41 EST Hello Folks, I've been enjoying this list. I'm a history buff on this era and am wondering if there are any other email lists that have more history info on them. Thanks for any info to come down the pike. justbuglebaby (elk bowhunter) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Trappin... Date: 18 Dec 1999 15:02:55 EST Ho the List, Some of you boys have seen the jpeg of a wolverine I posted awhile back..=20 I=92ll include it again: http://members.aol.com/swcushing/myhomepage/wolveri= ne.j pg What you can=92t see is the 6ft crater around the black spruce tree the trap= s=20 are fastened to. Here=92s the story=85 When I snow shoed up to what was left of a cubby set for lynx, I spotted the= =20 wolverine on the far side of the tree. He was big, doing his best to depart=20 the area, and madder en hell! Thinkin, now would be an excellent time to tak= e=20 a picture, and wanting him to face me, I called out "YO WOL-(at near the=20 speed of light, the critter went from there to about a foot from my=20 knees)-verine=85. I snapped the pic as I did a full twisting 1 1/2 back flip= =20 into the willows behind me=85that ended the photo session. Regaining my composure, I did a quick draw with my side arm (22cal pistol)=20 and lobed in a round, hitting em right between the eyes. At that moment, as=20 my life flashed before me, the CB cap (very low powered 22cal) ricocheted of= f=20 his forehead=85.. If the wolverine was just pissed before, he now came unglu= ed!=20 I mean snow, dirt, wood, and frozen chunks of ground were flyin=85but what=20 really got my attention was the God awful howlin and screamin like a gut sho= t=20 Griz=85and most of it was commin from me! Anyway, hoping the two #3 coil spring traps held as I reloaded with 22LR=20 slugs(?) =85with shaking hands I opened fire. When the smoke cleared and I=20 opened my eyes, the critter was down=85 As I started the long hike back to camp, I=92m thinkin=85"God, this trappin=20= stuff=20 sure is fun=85.." =20 Ymos, Steve PS: I lived and trapped in Western Alaska for nearly 20 years before we move= d=20 back to America. That wolverine was the first of only a few but not somethin= g=20 I=92ll soon forget. As I recall,(1980=92s) wolverine and lynx were selling f= or=20 around $450 each, fox for near $100, and a blanket beaver for $40. We=92d=20 freeze the beaver carcass, use pieces for bait, or sell em to the Iditarod=20 dog mushers for $25 each. I=92d also give the beaver to a local native lady=20= to=20 skin=85and all she wanted was the meat in enchange. That was a fair trade ca= use=20 beaver, and otter, don=92t give up the hide without some hard work skinnin.=20= The=20 easy money was in Marten and if you were in good country, easy to catch at=20 $40-$70 a piece. A fella could make a livin at it=85. =20 =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 18 Dec 1999 18:48:49 EST In a message dated 12/18/1999 10:29:54 AM Pacific Standard Time, kramer@kramerize.com writes: << Get out in the woods and get greasy dirty. Works every time. >> So right, John! There's no substitute for hard use to make our equipment & clothes look "right". I've been appauled at folks who take a perfectly good new rifle & beat it with chains & such to make it look old. Hey -- we're portraying the period when that rifle was new. Carry it a few years & use it hard -- it'll look right. Kill a deer with it. Wipe your hands on your 'skins as you gut the deer, just as the old timers did. You'll get the blood & grease stains the same way they did. Personaly, I've got to where I kinda snicker at folks with shiny clean 'skins -- brain tan or otherwise. They're missing the point! NM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 18 Dec 1999 19:08:50 -0600 WAshtahay- At 01:46 PM 12/18/99 -0500, you wrote: >Hey all, > This is how we work it here in the Brigade.(in ref. to Dave Kanger's quiestion >on tasks) > When you start as a Pilgrim, you start cold, Period....And do 'em as you go, if >you have done 'em before you were invited to join the AMM, do 'em again.... It was so tempting to write a letter comparing this kind of conduct to college fraternity initiations, poking fun at anyone who would put up with this. But I won't. Instead, I'll ask if anyone knows of an organization that really combines serious historical research with real live feet-on-the-ground woodsrunning on a more than quarterly or semi-annual basis. I'd really appreciate knowing of such a group, even if I can take the time to join right now. It would be somehow uplifting to know that wome group somewhere is actually living up to the spirit and the letter of the high-falutin' words of their charter. LongWalker C. du B. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 18 Dec 1999 20:33:40 -0500 Longwalker. We do it more than quarterly or semi-annually, as you put it... Individually or in a group, we spend a helluva lot of time on the ground. And I would trust my life with ANY member of the AMM. PERIOD.n And have on more than one occasion. I personally spent better than 3 months of last year in the mountains or in the woods, both alone or with Brothers.. Mebby you should clarify your question or ask it more specifically. If you are talking about requirements, those are bare minimums.. And I wouldn't want to be a member of a group that I could just "join".... Dennis Miles AMM1622 Hiveranno "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accouterments http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 "Knowing How Is Only The Beginning" ----- Original Message ----- Sent: December 18, 1999 8:08 PM > WAshtahay- > At 01:46 PM 12/18/99 -0500, you wrote: > >Hey all, > > This is how we work it here in the Brigade.(in ref. to Dave Kanger's > quiestion > >on tasks) > > When you start as a Pilgrim, you start cold, Period....And do 'em as you > go, if > >you have done 'em before you were invited to join the AMM, do 'em again.... > It was so tempting to write a letter comparing this kind of conduct to > college fraternity initiations, poking fun at anyone who would put up with > this. But I won't. > > Instead, I'll ask if anyone knows of an organization that really combines > serious historical research with real live feet-on-the-ground woodsrunning > on a more than quarterly or semi-annual basis. I'd really appreciate > knowing of such a group, even if I can take the time to join right now. It > would be somehow uplifting to know that wome group somewhere is actually > living up to the spirit and the letter of the high-falutin' words of their > charter. > LongWalker C. du B. > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 18 Dec 1999 20:20:16 -0700 Reply to: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan I agree with you on the orange leather. I hate the damn stuff. DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants R Lahti wrote: > > >Mike Moore wrote: >> = >> Capt. >> One of the bad things about this email is that you can't sit down = with the >> person you are talking to and spend a good time discussing an item. = Like this. > >Mike, > >Glad you thought my remarks worth repeating. But they are just my >thoughts and certainly not the last word. Probably the worst part of >talking this way is not being able to express feelings and not being >able to immediately rephrase for better understanding. So there is no >mistake about what I wrote, I was not justifying anything, I assure you. >I thought I was clarifying that Steve and I have been in private >conversation on this broad subject and I have been providing him with my >thoughts and opinions and my best advise as I felt would meet his >particular situation. = > >I am not his sponsor but would welcome him as my guest. As such, I would >of course take responsibility for him. He has read what I have written >to him privately and in general to the list about how I view different >things and understands what I said and where I am coming from. > > My only question is: Why not have >> Steve wait till a warmer camp and start? It would give him more time to = have >> things ready and see what he needs to improve. = > >He is welcome to wait until warmer weather. He is no stranger to the >cold though and only needs to know what it would take to deal with a NW >winter camp to participate in comfort and not feel out of place. I sense >from our talks that he does not wish to take shortcuts but would >appreciate getting a good start on "buckskinning" of any kind. He is >unique and other new people might be advised differently. = > >I don't recall telling him or anyone that commercial tanned leather >cheapens or lowers the standards of our organization. What I have said >and what I have heard others say is that it can be an expensive and >unsatisfying alternative. I have no quarrel with commercially tanned >leather for authenticity's sake. I personally don't think the >commercially tanned "golden buckskin" bears any resemblance to any >commercial product available in the days of the Fur Trade. From what I >have read much leather of a commercial ilk was made and moved west. >Brain Tan is not the only leather ever worn by a frontiersman, just not >"Chrome Tanned Golden Buckskin". = > >Another post posed the question of whether a candidate would be rejected >were he in such commercial leather. If it were my place to do so, I >certainly would not reject him on that basis but it is not my place to >say whether it is the policy of the AMM to make that type of negative >judgment. If asked I will say what I think is the better way to go >though. If someone wishes to wear such material after so many have >advised as to it's negative qualities then they may have at it. I >thought the bottom line in this organization was the man not what he was >wearing, in any case. I am even privy to a simple process that will turn >such leather into an almost satisfactory material with almost the same >properties, look and feel of brain tan. It will be better but still not >brain tan. But why bother unless there is no alternative? = > >If someone wishes to change their outfit a few times before settling in >on what is comfortable I surely would not criticize. I certainly have >done that many times over myself. I wish someone had taken me by the ear >many years ago and talked to me like a Dutch Uncle and convinced me how >much money I was ultimately going to waste on chrome tan, split cow and >etc. before I finally did my first brain tan (which was not a pretty >sight but infinitely better than the substitutes that had gone before >and much more personally satisfying). = > >Brain tan is the best even if done by a first timer. It is a skill we >all should have and endorse but it is not for everyone to be a tanner >nor is it the only material that will serve well. It is not even a >requirement that one be able to brain tan. It is only one of many skills >to choose from. I heartily endorse the use of period fabrics and utilize >them myself where they serve best. I am fortunate to have some brain tan >articles but there are alternatives and period correct alternatives at >that. = > >As I said, no one is expected to come in full brain tan. Not in my camp >anyway. And a new person who wishes to see what it's all about is always >welcome dressed however. Any person who asks my advise or opinion gets >my best answer and all the alternatives. They deserve no less. > >There is nothing wrong with letting probationary members be pilgrims. >There is nothing wrong with trying to guide them in productive paths >either. I have seen new people go from talking about it for a year to >having a basic kit in two weeks so they would fit in, as they wished to >do on their first trip, realize much more enjoyment than they even >expected and leave the weekend so fired that their progress in the next >few months was outstanding. They were not pushed. No one is pushed to do >anything he is not up to nor should they be. Patience is a virtue and is >to be encouraged. Our Brigade practices the informal policy of camping >with a new person somewhere around three times before extending a formal >invitation to join. That can take patience. Are we still not in >agreement? = > >Certainly a pilgrim/probationary has a year to get his "shit" together >if he wishes to take it. It ain't going to hurt a damned thing for him >to use commercial chrome tan while in his pilgrim period. If that is >what he's got then fine. If he doesn't even have that and yet thinks he >should be in full leathers and asks what is thought about such before he >goes out and buy's it, I submit there isn't a damned thing wrong with >advising him that he surely can find alternatives and is welcome to wait >until he can make or buy what would work the best. When any of us >finally get our brain tan we appreciate it all the more for the wait and >the functionality whether we are Bossloper or not. Hell if we all had >our "shit together when we were pilgrims.....hell we are all still >pilgrims or resting on our laurels and going no where. Even the >Hiveranno's. = > >Unless I am not reading it right, the by-laws do not require anyone to >complete all requirements "after" being invited to join. There are >certain basic requirements that have to be met before being eligible for >membership, a certain number of things that must be met by the end of >the first year and a minimum number of the 20 that have to be met by the >end of the second year. = > >Although this forum does not take the place of setting around a campfire >it is good to share thoughts as best can be done by thoughtful men of >good will. Such discussions refine and clarify and sometimes change how >we think and what we believe. I remain.... > >A "pilgrim" and = >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' >"Aux Aliments de Pays" > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > > Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with = ESMTP > (SMTPD32-5.01) id AC144D50088; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 22:31:00 -0600 > Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #2) > id 11zCMO-0004Yu-00 > for hist_text-gooutt@lists.xmission.com; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 22:24:52 -= 0700 > Received: from [207.115.153.22] (helo=3Dsmtppop3.gte.net) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) > id 11zCMM-0004Yp-00 > for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 22:24:50 -0700 > Received: from gte.net (1Cust49.tnt6.kennewick.wa.da.uu.net [63.13.8.49])= > by smtppop3.gte.net with ESMTP > for ; id XAA13682115 > Fri, 17 Dec 1999 23:24:04 -0600 (CST) > Message-ID: <385AAAA0.A120D40D@gte.net> > Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 21:26:56 +0000 > From: R Lahti > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-DIAL (Win98; U) > X-Accept-Language: en > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan > References: <0.71b44f4b.258bbc90@aol.com> <385A0780.49B91B86@gte.net> = ><385AB92C.86CCFB65@earthlink.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > X-RCPT-TO: > X-UIDL: 4228 > Status: U > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 18 Dec 1999 22:37:27 -0700 At 07:08 PM 12/18/1999 -0600, you wrote: > Instead, I'll ask if anyone knows of an organization that really combines >serious historical research with real live feet-on-the-ground woodsrunning >on a more than quarterly or semi-annual basis. Our party is on the ground at least once a month, all year round. Not a lot of talking, just a lot of doing. Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 19 Dec 1999 08:48:36 -0600 Interesting comment. I know of folks who don't participate in any sort of historical reenacting that I would consider to have all of the spirit, determination, and assorted valuable life skills that I believe many of the "mountain men" had. I also know quite a few folks that take a lot of pride in there knowledge of the past and study it maybe because it puts the present in proper perspective. I have sometimes met folks that I would consider to have been born perhaps 175 or so years to late. Or maybe the spirit of exploration, dangerous lifestyles, hard work, and the like is something that you can't pin down to a certain time frame. There have always been folks that fit into that category and there always will be. So what is the ultimate result of making a new member of your club make a "brain tan" outfit? Seems like the comparison to a college initiation is a good one. The desire to emulate and preserve the lifestyles of people who we admire that have come before us is definitely an admirable one. Personally I think the world would be a better place if more folks studied history because I think it puts the present in better perspective. But I often think that to truly know what life was like for say a "mountain man" greater sacrifices would have to be made than studying first hand narratives and trying to dress like them. And going on "camping trips"for a few months of the year don't quite cut it either. Some folks will never understand what it would have been like to have lived back then. I would compare it to certain archeologists today who spend a lot of time trying to analyze data and doing research and simply don't spend any time seriously trying to understand what it would have been like to be in the shoes of the person or persons they are studying. How many folks who are in the AMM have wintered alone in a remote area with no contact with folks or resupply? There are folks who do it and its the only life they know. I think sometimes folks with the desire to be historically accurate get carried away and lose site of there true goals and the intent of there undertaking. northwoods -----Original Message----- >Longwalker. > > We do it more than quarterly or semi-annually, as you put it... >Individually or in a group, we spend a helluva lot of time on the ground. >And I would trust my life with ANY member of the AMM. PERIOD.n And have on >more than one occasion. >I personally spent better than 3 months of last year in the mountains or in >the woods, both alone or with Brothers.. Mebby you should clarify your >question or ask it more specifically. If you are talking about requirements, >those are bare minimums.. > And I wouldn't want to be a member of a group that I could just "join".... > >Dennis Miles >AMM1622 Hiveranno > > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > Period Knives & Iron Accouterments > http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 >"Knowing How Is Only The Beginning" >----- Original Message ----- >From: Jim Colburn >To: >Sent: December 18, 1999 8:08 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan > > >> WAshtahay- >> At 01:46 PM 12/18/99 -0500, you wrote: >> >Hey all, >> > This is how we work it here in the Brigade.(in ref. to Dave Kanger's >> quiestion >> >on tasks) >> > When you start as a Pilgrim, you start cold, Period....And do 'em as you >> go, if >> >you have done 'em before you were invited to join the AMM, do 'em >again.... >> It was so tempting to write a letter comparing this kind of conduct to >> college fraternity initiations, poking fun at anyone who would put up with >> this. But I won't. >> >> Instead, I'll ask if anyone knows of an organization that really combines >> serious historical research with real live feet-on-the-ground woodsrunning >> on a more than quarterly or semi-annual basis. I'd really appreciate >> knowing of such a group, even if I can take the time to join right now. >It >> would be somehow uplifting to know that wome group somewhere is actually >> living up to the spirit and the letter of the high-falutin' words of their >> charter. >> LongWalker C. du B. >> >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 19 Dec 1999 10:13:42 -0500 I am not a member of the AMM but with all this talk I just zipped on over to the website and read through the requ. to be a member. Let me know if I am wrong but the requirement that I read was that one had to make his own handstitched clothing, the only brain tan requ. was that you would have to make some brain tan. I would love to own a set of brain tan buckskins but the only way I am going to get them is to make them myself. Now I have started and have realized it is a bit of work. My first skin did not turn out as planned but it will make a real nice quiver and possibles bags and a variety of other stuff. I must try again and be successful, but until then I am satisfied with my chem. tanned leggins that have been mistaked for brain tanned by those who do not know any better, woodsmoke, dirt, grease and coffee stains makes them really realistic, matter of fact the gents who do braintan have had to feel them once or twice to determine. As I understand a pilgrim could make his leggins, breechcloth, and hand sew his longhunter style shirt. make a pair of mocs and he is ready to go and that brain tan buckskins although they would be exc. to have they really are not required. It really is funny that when reading the requirements I have noticed that I have done a majority of them, the outings I am not up to par on but that will come with time and acceptance from other family members. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, December 19, 1999 9:48 AM > Interesting comment. > I know of folks who don't participate in any sort of historical reenacting > that I would consider to have all of the spirit, determination, and assorted > valuable life skills that I believe many of the "mountain men" had. I also > know quite a few folks that take a lot of pride in there knowledge of the > past and study it maybe because it puts the present in proper perspective. I > have sometimes met folks that I would consider to have been born perhaps 175 > or so years to late. Or maybe the spirit of exploration, dangerous > lifestyles, hard work, and the like is something that you can't pin down to > a certain time frame. There have always been folks that fit into that > category and there always will be. > So what is the ultimate result of making a new member of your club make a > "brain tan" outfit? Seems like the comparison to a college initiation is a > good one. > > The desire to emulate and preserve the lifestyles of people who we admire > that have come before us is definitely an admirable one. Personally I think > the world would be a better place if more folks studied history because I > think it puts the present in better perspective. But I often think that to > truly know what life was like for say a "mountain man" greater sacrifices > would have to be made than studying first hand narratives and trying to > dress like them. And going on "camping trips"for a few months of the year > don't quite cut it either. > Some folks will never understand what it would have been like to have lived > back then. I would compare it to certain archeologists today who spend a lot > of time trying to analyze data and doing research and simply don't spend any > time seriously trying to understand what it would have been like to be in > the shoes of the person or persons they are studying. > How many folks who are in the AMM have wintered alone in a remote area with > no contact with folks or resupply? There are folks who do it and its the > only life they know. > I think sometimes folks with the desire to be historically accurate get > carried away and lose site of there true goals and the intent of there > undertaking. > > northwoods > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dennis Miles > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Saturday, December 18, 1999 7:35 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan > > > >Longwalker. > > > > We do it more than quarterly or semi-annually, as you put it... > >Individually or in a group, we spend a helluva lot of time on the ground. > >And I would trust my life with ANY member of the AMM. PERIOD.n And have on > >more than one occasion. > >I personally spent better than 3 months of last year in the mountains or in > >the woods, both alone or with Brothers.. Mebby you should clarify your > >question or ask it more specifically. If you are talking about > requirements, > >those are bare minimums.. > > And I wouldn't want to be a member of a group that I could just "join".... > > > >Dennis Miles > >AMM1622 Hiveranno > > > > > > "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" > > DOUBLE EDGE FORGE > > Period Knives & Iron Accouterments > > http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 > >"Knowing How Is Only The Beginning" > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Jim Colburn > >To: > >Sent: December 18, 1999 8:08 PM > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan > > > > > >> WAshtahay- > >> At 01:46 PM 12/18/99 -0500, you wrote: > >> >Hey all, > >> > This is how we work it here in the Brigade.(in ref. to Dave Kanger's > >> quiestion > >> >on tasks) > >> > When you start as a Pilgrim, you start cold, Period....And do 'em as > you > >> go, if > >> >you have done 'em before you were invited to join the AMM, do 'em > >again.... > >> It was so tempting to write a letter comparing this kind of conduct to > >> college fraternity initiations, poking fun at anyone who would put up > with > >> this. But I won't. > >> > >> Instead, I'll ask if anyone knows of an organization that really combines > >> serious historical research with real live feet-on-the-ground > woodsrunning > >> on a more than quarterly or semi-annual basis. I'd really appreciate > >> knowing of such a group, even if I can take the time to join right now. > >It > >> would be somehow uplifting to know that wome group somewhere is actually > >> living up to the spirit and the letter of the high-falutin' words of > their > >> charter. > >> LongWalker C. du B. > >> > >> > >> ---------------------- > >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >> > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: linen thread Date: 19 Dec 1999 12:51:25 EST Ho the List, I found some good linen sewing thread at Jas Townsend & Son (http://www.jastown.com ) ...$6 for for 260yds on a wood spool... Ymos, Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: MtMan-List: Doing it. was brain tan Date: 19 Dec 1999 12:59:15 -0700 At 08:48 AM 12/19/1999 -0600, you wrote: >So what is the ultimate result of making a new member of your club make a >"brain tan" outfit? Seems like the comparison to a college initiation is a >good one. I consider that this requirement is part of the "doing" not the "talking". Anyone can read about how to do it, and get an understanding. But until that hide comes out soft and nice, it's all hypothetical. This requirement also stems from the surivial aspects of the primitive skills. If you were stuck, with this skill you could make clothing, rawhide, etc. Try chrome tanning out in the woods....... > >The desire to emulate and preserve the lifestyles of people who we admire >that have come before us is definitely an admirable one. Personally I think >the world would be a better place if more folks studied history because I >think it puts the present in better perspective. But I often think that to >truly know what life was like for say a "mountain man" greater sacrifices >would have to be made than studying first hand narratives and trying to >dress like them. And going on "camping trips"for a few months of the year >don't quite cut it either. No one has said that this puts us in their shoes (or moccasins), but it sure puts us a lot closer than not doing it. And by reading the journals you learn what they did and how them made it through. Again, this is "doing" and not "talking". >How many folks who are in the AMM have wintered alone in a remote area with >no contact with folks or resupply? There are folks who do it and its the >only life they know. First of all, how many of the old mountain men wintered alone. Very few. A man alone in the Rockies was called "gone beaver" or today as a victim. Even friendly tribes would rub out a lone man. Wintering alone is pretty much a Hollywood "Jerimiah Johnson" myth. And I'm sure that there are folks that do it today. But 1999 isn't 1829, the conditions and all else is completely different. How many of these folks wintering use the tools and technology of the early 1800's? And finally, for them that do, good for them! >I think sometimes folks with the desire to be historically accurate get >carried away and lose site of there true goals and the intent of there >undertaking. Some do, sure. Some don't. But as you observed, it's their undertaking....... What do you suggest is the way to go? Allen Hall in Fort Hall country ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 19 Dec 1999 13:39:09 -0600 Washtahay- At 08:33 PM 12/18/99 -0500, Dennis wrote: > We do it more than quarterly or semi-annually, as you put it... >Individually or in a group, we spend a helluva lot of time on the ground. And at 10:37 PM 12/18/99 -0700, Allen wrote: >Our party is on the ground at least once a month, all year round. Not a lot >of talking, just a lot of doing. Gentlemen, I am not questioning your time in the field. However, it has been my experience that the outfits and equipage of the AMM members I have met are not what I would consider to be artifacts of "serious historical research". The impression I have gained over the years is that this something the majority of the members are not particularly concerned about. They have reached a "level of comfort" and see no need to progress further. In fairness, I have to admit that this impression is based on everything from casual encounters to weeks in camp with AMM members,of whom over the past twenty years I have only met maybe a hundred. Dennis went on to write: >And I would trust my life with ANY member of the AMM. PERIOD.n And have on >more than one occasion. I find that interesting; in more than one case my experience has been to the contrary. For example, one of your members (as of 1989 or'90) was unable to deal with a medical emergency. After conversations with a number of former members (formally withdrawn or just lapsed), I know your sentiment is not universal. Different experiences in each case no doubt-we're all subject to human variance and frailties. >I personally spent better than 3 months of last year in the mountains or in >the woods, both alone or with Brothers.. Hope you had fun! ;-) >Mebby you should clarify your >question or ask it more specifically. If you are talking about requirements, >those are bare minimums.. Let me try to paraphrase my original question. Would anyone aware of any organization that combines actual ongoing research, ongoing efforts for serious historical recreation, and frequent time in the field please contact me? > And I wouldn't want to be a member of a group that I could just "join".... Well, regarding myself, I tend to agree with Clemen's comments about not being willing to join any organization that would have me! Seriously, the AMM's requirements seem to do a good job of accomplishing the multiple purposes of getting the real pilgrims outfitted, seeing how they work out as a member of the group on the trail, and allowing them to gain field experience. Applying the same requirements to experienced people, rather than more advanced requirements, is what strikes me as being similar to fratboy initiations- "It doesn't have to make sense, you just have to do it". The experience will be less meaningful for the experienced person than the real pilgrim-what has the person with experience gained? LongWalker c. du B. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 19 Dec 1999 13:48:38 -0700 Jim, Would love to talk to you- talk to me off line. mike. Jim Colburn wrote: > Washtahay- > At 08:33 PM 12/18/99 -0500, Dennis wrote: > > We do it more than quarterly or semi-annually, as you put it... > >Individually or in a group, we spend a helluva lot of time on the ground. > > And at 10:37 PM 12/18/99 -0700, Allen wrote: > >Our party is on the ground at least once a month, all year round. Not a lot > >of talking, just a lot of doing. > Gentlemen, I am not questioning your time in the field. However, it has > been my experience that the outfits and equipage of the AMM members I have > met are not what I would consider to be artifacts of "serious historical > research". The impression I have gained over the years is that this > something the majority of the members are not particularly concerned about. > They have reached a "level of comfort" and see no need to progress > further. In fairness, I have to admit that this impression is based on > everything from casual encounters to weeks in camp with AMM members,of whom > over the past twenty years I have only met maybe a hundred. > > Dennis went on to write: > >And I would trust my life with ANY member of the AMM. PERIOD.n And have on > >more than one occasion. > I find that interesting; in more than one case my experience has been to > the contrary. For example, one of your members (as of 1989 or'90) was > unable to deal with a medical emergency. > After conversations with a number of former members (formally withdrawn or > just lapsed), I know your sentiment is not universal. Different > experiences in each case no doubt-we're all subject to human variance and > frailties. > > >I personally spent better than 3 months of last year in the mountains or in > >the woods, both alone or with Brothers.. > Hope you had fun! ;-) > > >Mebby you should clarify your > >question or ask it more specifically. If you are talking about requirements, > >those are bare minimums.. > Let me try to paraphrase my original question. Would anyone aware of any > organization that combines actual ongoing research, ongoing efforts for > serious historical recreation, and frequent time in the field please > contact me? > > > And I wouldn't want to be a member of a group that I could just "join".... > Well, regarding myself, I tend to agree with Clemen's comments about not > being willing to join any organization that would have me! > Seriously, the AMM's requirements seem to do a good job of accomplishing > the multiple purposes of getting the real pilgrims outfitted, seeing how > they work out as a member of the group on the trail, and allowing them to > gain field experience. Applying the same requirements to experienced > people, rather than more advanced requirements, is what strikes me as being > similar to fratboy initiations- "It doesn't have to make sense, you just > have to do it". The experience will be less meaningful for the experienced > person than the real pilgrim-what has the person with experience gained? > LongWalker c. du B. > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 19 Dec 1999 16:07:34 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BF4A3B.295315A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mr.. Colburn, Exactly what is your "experience" regarding the outfits and equipage = of THE AMM members ? How much "real research" have you done ? Do you = know what a AMM member's gear is supposed to emulate ? Have you = attended a AMM event ? Or are you making these observations based on = what you see at regular open rendezvous ? Most us of carry the same = stuff everyone else does when attending a rendezvous with the women and = kids. Granted, all AMM members do not carry museum quality gear, but to = be sure, it is right for the time period.when they are at a AMM event. Your inference to Dennis' comment about trusting his life with any AMM = member, seems to be that many AMM members are not trustworthy. Sir, I = consider that a insult. To suggest that because a AMM member was not = qualified to handle a medical emergency and therefore was not = trustworthy is a ridicules assumption. You have been contacted by many folks who are members of an = organization that pursues ongoing research and frequent time in the = field, The members of THE AMM do just that. As far as historical = recreation, I don't know what you are looking for. You say you would not want to be a member of any organization that you = could just join, Sir, you do not just join THE AMM. You are invited to = join. Then you serve a appropriate time period as a pilgrim before = gaining full membership, not to see if a person "fits in" but to gain = the knowledge and experience expected of AMM members. If you were as = well informed as you think you are you would know that there are degrees = of advancement in this organization and those are there to serve as a = challenge for the more experienced members. =20 You have had the benefit of access to the vast amount of knowledge = available on this list which is here for you to use due to the efforts = of a AMM member, and yet you use it to refer to our requirements as " = fratboy initiations". Again Sir, I consider that a insult, and I feel a = apology is in order, not to me but to our organization.=20 Do not attempt to contact me off list because I will not respond, you = opened this line of discussion on this list, so here it is. Larry Pendleton AMM # 1572 Bossloper=20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Jim Colburn To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Sunday, December 19, 1999 11:57 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan =20 =20 Washtahay- At 08:33 PM 12/18/99 -0500, Dennis wrote: > We do it more than quarterly or semi-annually, as you put it... >Individually or in a group, we spend a helluva lot of time on the = ground. =20 And at 10:37 PM 12/18/99 -0700, Allen wrote: >Our party is on the ground at least once a month, all year round. = Not a lot >of talking, just a lot of doing. Gentlemen, I am not questioning your time in the field. However, it = has been my experience that the outfits and equipage of the AMM members = I have met are not what I would consider to be artifacts of "serious = historical research". The impression I have gained over the years is that this something the majority of the members are not particularly concerned = about. They have reached a "level of comfort" and see no need to progress further. In fairness, I have to admit that this impression is based = on everything from casual encounters to weeks in camp with AMM = members,of whom over the past twenty years I have only met maybe a hundred. =20 =20 Dennis went on to write: >And I would trust my life with ANY member of the AMM. PERIOD.n And = have on >more than one occasion. I find that interesting; in more than one case my experience has = been to the contrary. For example, one of your members (as of 1989 or'90) = was unable to deal with a medical emergency. =20 After conversations with a number of former members (formally = withdrawn or just lapsed), I know your sentiment is not universal. Different experiences in each case no doubt-we're all subject to human = variance and frailties. =20 =20 >I personally spent better than 3 months of last year in the = mountains or in >the woods, both alone or with Brothers..=20 Hope you had fun! ;-) =20 =20 >Mebby you should clarify your >question or ask it more specifically. If you are talking about = requirements, >those are bare minimums.. Let me try to paraphrase my original question. Would anyone aware = of any organization that combines actual ongoing research, ongoing efforts = for serious historical recreation, and frequent time in the field please contact me? =20 =20 =20 > And I wouldn't want to be a member of a group that I could just = "join".... Well, regarding myself, I tend to agree with Clemen's comments about = not being willing to join any organization that would have me! Seriously, the AMM's requirements seem to do a good job of = accomplishing the multiple purposes of getting the real pilgrims outfitted, seeing = how they work out as a member of the group on the trail, and allowing = them to gain field experience. Applying the same requirements to = experienced people, rather than more advanced requirements, is what strikes me = as being similar to fratboy initiations- "It doesn't have to make sense, you = just have to do it". The experience will be less meaningful for the = experienced person than the real pilgrim-what has the person with experience = gained? LongWalker c. du B. =20 =20 =20 =20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BF4A3B.295315A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mr.. Colburn,
  Exactly = what is your=20 "experience" regarding the outfits and equipage of THE AMM = members=20 ?  How much "real research" have you done ?  Do you = know=20 what a AMM member's gear is supposed to emulate ?  Have you = attended a AMM=20 event ?  Or are you making these observations based on what you see = at=20 regular open rendezvous ?  Most us of carry the same stuff everyone = else=20 does when attending a rendezvous with the women and kids.  Granted, = all AMM=20 members do not carry museum quality gear, but to be sure, it is right = for the=20 time period.when they are at a AMM event.
  Your inference to Dennis' comment about = trusting his=20 life with any AMM member, seems to be that many AMM members are not=20 trustworthy.  Sir, I consider that a insult.  To suggest that = because=20 a AMM member was not qualified to handle a medical emergency and = therefore was=20 not trustworthy is a ridicules assumption.
  You have been contacted by many folks who are = members=20 of an organization that pursues ongoing research and frequent time in = the field,=20 The members of THE AMM do just that.  As far as historical = recreation, I=20 don't know what you are looking for.
  You say you would not want to be a member of = any=20 organization that you could just join, Sir, you do not just join THE = AMM. =20 You are invited to join.  Then you serve a appropriate time period = as a=20 pilgrim before gaining full membership, not to see if a person = "fits=20 in" but to gain the knowledge and experience expected of AMM = members. =20 If you were as well informed as you think you are you would know that = there are=20 degrees of advancement in this organization and those are there to serve = as a=20 challenge for the more experienced members.  
  You have had the benefit of access to the = vast amount=20 of knowledge available on this list  which is here for you to use = due to=20 the efforts of a AMM member, and yet you use it to refer to our = requirements as=20 " fratboy initiations".  Again Sir, I consider that a = insult, and=20 I feel a apology is in order, not to me but to our=20 organization. 
   Do not attempt to contact me off list = because I=20 will not respond, you opened this line of discussion on this list, so = here it=20 is.
Larry Pendleton AMM # 1572 = Bossloper 
 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Jim Colburn <jc60714@navix.net>
To: = hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Sunday, December 19, 1999 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: = MtMan-List:=20 brain tan

Washtahay-
At 08:33 PM 12/18/99 = -0500,=20 Dennis wrote:
> We do it more than quarterly or semi-annually, = as you=20 put it...
>Individually or in a group, we spend a helluva lot = of time=20 on the ground.

And at 10:37 PM 12/18/99 -0700, Allen=20 wrote:
>Our party is on the ground at least once a month, all = year=20 round.  Not a lot
>of talking, just a lot of = doing.
Gentlemen,=20 I am not questioning your time in the field.  However, it = has
been=20 my experience that the outfits and equipage of the AMM members I = have
met=20 are not what I would consider to be artifacts of "serious=20 historical
research".  The impression I have gained = over the=20 years is that this
something the majority of the members are not=20 particularly concerned about.
They have reached a "level of=20 comfort" and see no need to progress
further.  In = fairness, I=20 have to admit that this impression is based on
everything from = casual=20 encounters to weeks in camp with AMM members,of whom
over the = past twenty=20 years I have only met maybe a hundred. 

Dennis went on = to=20 write:
>And I would trust my life with ANY member of the = AMM. =20 PERIOD.n And have on
>more than one occasion.
I find that=20 interesting; in more than one case my experience has been to
the=20 contrary.  For example, one of your members (as of 1989 or'90)=20 was
unable to deal with a medical emergency. 
After=20 conversations with a number of former members (formally withdrawn = or
just=20 lapsed), I know your sentiment is not universal. =20 Different
experiences in each case no doubt-we're all subject to = human=20 variance and
frailties. 

>I personally spent = better than=20 3 months of last year in the mountains or in
>the woods, both = alone or=20 with Brothers..
Hope you had fun!  ;-)  =

>Mebby you=20 should clarify your
>question or ask it more specifically. If = you are=20 talking about requirements,
>those are bare minimums..
Let = me try=20 to paraphrase my original question.  Would anyone aware of=20 any
organization that combines actual ongoing research, ongoing = efforts=20 for
serious historical recreation, and frequent time in the field = please
contact me? 


> And I wouldn't want to = be a=20 member of a group that I could just "join"....
Well, = regarding=20 myself, I tend to agree with Clemen's comments about not
being = willing to=20 join any organization that would have me!
Seriously, the AMM's=20 requirements seem to do a good job of accomplishing
the multiple = purposes=20 of getting the real pilgrims outfitted, seeing how
they work out = as a=20 member of the group on the trail, and allowing them to
gain field = experience.  Applying the same requirements to = experienced
people,=20 rather than more advanced requirements, is what strikes me as=20 being
similar to fratboy initiations- "It doesn't have to = make=20 sense, you just
have to do it".  The experience will be = less=20 meaningful for the experienced
person than the real pilgrim-what = has the=20 person with experience gained?
LongWalker c. du B.
 =20



----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xm= ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BF4A3B.295315A0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 19 Dec 1999 16:23:12 -0600 You are right again, Don. A prospective member is judged by his heart = and his attitude, not by his equipment and guns or how many requirements = that may have already been met. We take the measure of a man, not his = plunder. Lanney Ratcliff #1585 ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Friday, December 17, 1999 8:42 PM Reply to: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Where does it say that all requirements have to be met after being = invited to join the AMM? =20 DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants R Lahti wrote: > > >ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: >> >> amm1616@earthlink.net writes: >> > And if we >> > waited for some one to join who already had all his equipment and = guns >> > in perfect authenicism, many of the great guys we have would not = of made >> > it in our ranks. > >Dave Kanger offers: >> >> If such a person who already had all his equipment and guns wanted = to join, >> would he then be expected to meet all the requirements over again = during his >> probationary period; or, would he receive a waiver. >> >> Many might not want to have to walk the trail over again. > >Brothers and Friends, > >This thread sorta got started with some questions from an Associate >member up here in Wa. I got with him privately and established where he >was at and what/where he was interested in going. His desire was to >pursue membership in the AMM and with his Associate membership thought >he was on the path. I told him that it was my understanding that >membership was by invitation to worthy men of good will who were new to >the "Game" but wanted to grow, or "Old Hands" that wanted to continue = to >grow, had never joined yet would benefit and be welcome in the >Brotherhood. I advised him to take what he already had and build on it >such that he would have a "kit" that would allow him to move beyond >where he is right now (just able to fit in to a Shoot/Rendezvous) and >actually get to a point where he could "get on the ground" with AMM'ers >in the Northwest Brigade and see if they and what they did was what he >wanted to do and lastly but not the least let them see if they felt he >was one who merited an invitation to join and start the process to full >membership. We have friends in our circle up here who have gone to >ground with us regularly but have no desire to join thought they would >qualify easily. They are always welcome in our camps as I was before I >joined. > >Steve was not advised that he had to be in "Full Brain Tan From Head to >Toes" to be accepted at his first ever AMM event/camp but rather to do >what he could to come up with a full set of clothing that would do him >in good stead in a winter camp and should he or we decide he would >continue the journey, be that much closer to completing the basic >requirements for Bossloper. I advised that wool would see him into a >winter camp just fine. I personally would prefer that a new hand or old >hand wear wool, or other period cloth clothing rather than spend time >and money on commercial leathers that he will some day wish he had not >bought. Few of our heroes' went to the mountains fully in buckskin the >first time. > >I came to membership in the AMM not that many winters back as one who >had been doing it the right way and had done most of the basic >requirements for Bossloper many times over for the past 25/30 years. As >a personal challenge to myself I made over many of my personal clothing >items by hand, redid many of the first 15 requirements and did not ask >for a waiver. I have helped to sponsor several new brothers into my >party in the past couple years who have also been accomplished >mountaineers for decades themselves but just never felt the need to >join. They are not asking for any waivers but are redoing the >requirements that all probationary "Pilgrims" are asked to do just as I >did. > >A new prospective member with nothing but great potential for becoming = a >valuable member of AMM need not come to the door with all the skills = and >gear of a Bossloper or Hiverano. But I think it a disservice to such a >fellow to advise him to take shortcuts when he will eventually need to >or want to have done it right. So the prospective candidate (who is = BTW, >no stranger to the wilderness or wildlife or trapping) but has little = in >the way of proper camp gear and winter clothing was advised to make it >of wool/other appropriate cloth and make it by hand if possible to get >that basic requirement out of the way and under his belt and more >importantly get himself geared up so he could come out and play as our >guest. > >BTW, our Brigade has discussed this situation and from the Brigade >Booshway down feel it not inappropriate for a guest with absolutely no >proper gear to be invited into camp "to see what it's all about". I >think the fellow in question would have felt uncomfortable wearing some >period items of clothing under his down parka and walking around in >Sorel Packs thus the advice given. Other situations would have called >for a different approach. > >I look forward to spending time with this individual "on the Ground" = and >strongly believe that the AMM will grow strong on new blood or will dry >up and die for the lack of it. I also feel that it's basic requirements >are worthy of all to accomplish and continue to accomplish from the >newest member to the oldest. To do otherwise is to cheapen the AMM and >cheat ourselves and our fellows. I remain... > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' #1719 >Clerk, Wilson Price Hunt Party, NW Brigade >AMM > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > > Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com = with ESMTP > (SMTPD32-5.01) id A7BC9A00EA; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:49:48 -0600 > Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #2) > id 11z1Ur-000218-00 > for hist_text-gooutt@lists.xmission.com; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:48:53 = -0700 > Received: from [207.115.153.21] (helo=3Dsmtppop2.gte.net) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) > id 11z1Up-000213-00 > for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:48:51 -0700 > Received: from gte.net (1Cust12.tnt6.kennewick.wa.da.uu.net = [63.13.8.12]) > by smtppop2.gte.net with ESMTP > for ; id LAA1696657 > Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:47:22 -0600 (CST) > Message-ID: <385A0780.49B91B86@gte.net> > Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:50:56 +0000 > From: R Lahti > X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-DIAL (Win98; U) > X-Accept-Language: en > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan > References: <0.71b44f4b.258bbc90@aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > X-RCPT-TO: > X-UIDL: 4211 > Status: U > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 19 Dec 1999 17:04:30 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0089_01BF4A43.1D577B80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To clarify what appears to be a misconception about leather clothes = being required for membership in AMM, let me quote the first requirement = for advancement beyond Pilgrim status: "...Must have a full set of HAND CUT AND SEWN clothing and HAND MADE = accoutrements. These must be researched for authenticity of the = 1800-1840 period and must be of a type which would have been seen on = men in, or moving to, the Rocky Mountains. (a.) Rifles, saddles, traps, blankets and other accoutrements that = would normally have required the work of a specialized craftsman need = not be hand made, but must be as authentic as can be purchased today." You will notice that there is no reference to leather of any kind, brain = tan or otherwise, nor to any requirement that clothes and accoutrements = must be hand made by the man who wears them. There are many references = in Mountaineers' journals to wool trousers and flannel shirts and = traders' inventories commonly listed ready made fabric clothing. While = leather clothes were seen everywhere, the use of leather by Mountaineers = was by no means 100% and is NOT required for membership in AMM. =20 My personal plunder includes wool and cotton (including one pair of very = wide wale corduroy) trousers, wool, fustian and cotton shirts, canton = flannel and cotton drawers and (yes leather) mocs, a green wool capote = and an elk skin coat. I have nothing against leather garments and I = might one day brain tan enough hides to make some, but for now I am = satisfied with what I have.....which meets AMM requirements. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff AMM #1585 ------=_NextPart_000_0089_01BF4A43.1D577B80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
To clarify what appears to be a misconception about leather clothes = being=20 required for membership in AMM, let me quote the first requirement for=20 advancement beyond Pilgrim status:
"...Must have a full set of HAND CUT AND SEWN clothing and HAND = MADE=20 accoutrements.  These must be researched for authenticity of the = 1800-1840=20 period and must be of a type which would have  been seen on men in, = or=20 moving to, the Rocky Mountains.
(a.)  Rifles, saddles, traps, blankets and other accoutrements = that=20 would normally have required the work of a specialized craftsman need = not be=20 hand made, but must be as authentic as can be purchased today."
 
You will notice that there is no reference to leather of any kind, = brain=20 tan or otherwise, nor to any requirement that clothes and accoutrements = must be=20 hand made by the man who wears them.  There are many = references in=20 Mountaineers' journals to wool trousers and flannel shirts and traders'=20 inventories commonly listed ready made fabric clothing.  While = leather=20 clothes were seen everywhere, the use of leather by Mountaineers was by = no means=20 100% and is NOT required for membership in AMM.  
My personal plunder includes wool and cotton (including one pair of = very=20 wide wale corduroy) trousers, wool, fustian and cotton shirts, canton = flannel=20 and cotton drawers and (yes leather) mocs, a green wool capote and an = elk skin=20 coat.  I have nothing against leather garments and I might one day = brain=20 tan enough hides to make some, but for now I am satisfied with what I=20 have.....which meets AMM requirements.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
AMM #1585
 
------=_NextPart_000_0089_01BF4A43.1D577B80-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John McKee" Subject: MtMan-List: wide wale corduroy Date: 19 Dec 1999 17:59:33 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01BF4A4A.CDE2EE60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable After reading Brother Lanney's missive about having wide wale corduroy ( = totally period correct ) pants, it prompted me to ask if anyone on the = list where I might find same in bulk yardage? Thank you, in advance, = for any information. Long John ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01BF4A4A.CDE2EE60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
After reading Brother = Lanney's=20 missive about having wide wale corduroy ( totally period correct ) = pants, it=20 prompted me to ask if anyone on the list where I might find same in bulk = yardage?  Thank you, in advance, for any information.  Long=20 John
------=_NextPart_000_0034_01BF4A4A.CDE2EE60-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 19 Dec 1999 18:11:30 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01BF4A4C.797A6EA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lanney, To add to your well put comment, the trappers of that time did not = wear leather by choice. It was a neccessity because that's all they = had. =20 Pendleton -----Original Message----- From: Ratcliff To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Sunday, December 19, 1999 2:58 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan =20 =20 To clarify what appears to be a misconception about leather clothes = being required for membership in AMM, let me quote the first requirement = for advancement beyond Pilgrim status: "...Must have a full set of HAND CUT AND SEWN clothing and HAND MADE = accoutrements. These must be researched for authenticity of the = 1800-1840 period and must be of a type which would have been seen on = men in, or moving to, the Rocky Mountains. (a.) Rifles, saddles, traps, blankets and other accoutrements that = would normally have required the work of a specialized craftsman need = not be hand made, but must be as authentic as can be purchased today." =20 You will notice that there is no reference to leather of any kind, = brain tan or otherwise, nor to any requirement that clothes and = accoutrements must be hand made by the man who wears them. There are = many references in Mountaineers' journals to wool trousers and flannel = shirts and traders' inventories commonly listed ready made fabric = clothing. While leather clothes were seen everywhere, the use of = leather by Mountaineers was by no means 100% and is NOT required for = membership in AMM. =20 My personal plunder includes wool and cotton (including one pair of = very wide wale corduroy) trousers, wool, fustian and cotton shirts, = canton flannel and cotton drawers and (yes leather) mocs, a green wool = capote and an elk skin coat. I have nothing against leather garments = and I might one day brain tan enough hides to make some, but for now I = am satisfied with what I have.....which meets AMM requirements. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff AMM #1585 ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01BF4A4C.797A6EA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lanney,
  To add = to your well=20 put comment, the trappers of that time did not wear leather by = choice.  It=20 was a neccessity because that's all they had. 
Pendleton
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Ratcliff <rat@htcomp.net>
To: = hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Sunday, December 19, 1999 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: = MtMan-List:=20 brain tan

To clarify what appears to be a misconception about leather = clothes=20 being required for membership in AMM, let me quote the first = requirement for=20 advancement beyond Pilgrim status:
"...Must have a full set of HAND CUT AND SEWN clothing and = HAND=20 MADE accoutrements.  These must be researched for authenticity = of the=20 1800-1840 period and must be of a type which would have  been = seen on=20 men in, or moving to, the Rocky Mountains.
(a.)  Rifles, saddles, traps, blankets and other = accoutrements=20 that would normally have required the work of a specialized = craftsman need=20 not be hand made, but must be as authentic as can be purchased=20 today."
 
You will notice that there is no reference to leather of any = kind,=20 brain tan or otherwise, nor to any requirement that clothes and=20 accoutrements must be hand made by the man who wears = them.  There=20 are many references in Mountaineers' journals to wool trousers and = flannel=20 shirts and traders' inventories commonly listed ready made fabric=20 clothing.  While leather clothes were seen everywhere, the use = of=20 leather by Mountaineers was by no means 100% and is NOT required for = membership in AMM.  
My personal plunder includes wool and cotton (including one = pair of=20 very wide wale corduroy) trousers, wool, fustian and cotton shirts, = canton=20 flannel and cotton drawers and (yes leather) mocs, a green wool = capote and=20 an elk skin coat.  I have nothing against leather garments and = I might=20 one day brain tan enough hides to make some, but for now I am = satisfied with=20 what I have.....which meets AMM requirements.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
AMM #1585
 
------=_NextPart_000_002C_01BF4A4C.797A6EA0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: wide wale corduroy Date: 19 Dec 1999 18:29:50 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BF4A4F.094A4F80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I found mine at Hancocks fabric store. Not many carry it, but from time = to time even a blind hog finds an acorn, but only if he roots around = long enough Lanney. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John McKee=20 To: AMM COMMON LIST=20 Sent: Sunday, December 19, 1999 5:59 PM Subject: MtMan-List: wide wale corduroy After reading Brother Lanney's missive about having wide wale corduroy = ( totally period correct ) pants, it prompted me to ask if anyone on the = list where I might find same in bulk yardage? Thank you, in advance, = for any information. Long John ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BF4A4F.094A4F80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I found mine at Hancocks fabric store.  Not many carry it, but = from=20 time to time even a blind hog finds an acorn, but only if he roots = around long=20 enough
Lanney.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 John=20 McKee
To: AMM COMMON LIST
Sent: Sunday, December 19, 1999 = 5:59=20 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: wide wale=20 corduroy

After reading Brother = Lanney's=20 missive about having wide wale corduroy ( totally period correct ) = pants, it=20 prompted me to ask if anyone on the list where I might find same in = bulk=20 yardage?  Thank you, in advance, for any information.  Long=20 John
------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BF4A4F.094A4F80-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Doing it. was brain tan Date: 19 Dec 1999 20:33:20 -0600 -----Original Message----- >At 08:48 AM 12/19/1999 -0600, you wrote: > >>So what is the ultimate result of making a new member of your club make a >>"brain tan" outfit? Seems like the comparison to a college initiation is a >>good one. > >I consider that this requirement is part of the "doing" not the "talking". >Anyone can read about how to do it, and get an understanding. But until >that hide comes out soft and nice, it's all hypothetical. > >This requirement also stems from the surivial aspects of the primitive >skills. If you were stuck, with this skill you could make clothing, >rawhide, etc. Try chrome tanning out in the woods....... > >> >>The desire to emulate and preserve the lifestyles of people who we admire >>that have come before us is definitely an admirable one. Personally I think >>the world would be a better place if more folks studied history because I >>think it puts the present in better perspective. But I often think that to >>truly know what life was like for say a "mountain man" greater sacrifices >>would have to be made than studying first hand narratives and trying to >>dress like them. And going on "camping trips"for a few months of the year >>don't quite cut it either. > >No one has said that this puts us in their shoes (or moccasins), but it sure >puts us a lot closer than not doing it. And by reading the journals you >learn what they did and how them made it through. Again, this is "doing" >and not "talking". > >>How many folks who are in the AMM have wintered alone in a remote area with >>no contact with folks or resupply? There are folks who do it and its the >>only life they know. > >First of all, how many of the old mountain men wintered alone. Very few. A >man alone in the Rockies was called "gone beaver" or today as a victim. >Even friendly tribes would rub out a lone man. Wintering alone is pretty >much a Hollywood "Jerimiah Johnson" myth. > >And I'm sure that there are folks that do it today. But 1999 isn't 1829, >the conditions and all else is completely different. How many of these >folks wintering use the tools and technology of the early 1800's? And >finally, for them that do, good for them! > >>I think sometimes folks with the desire to be historically accurate get >>carried away and lose site of there true goals and the intent of there >>undertaking. > >Some do, sure. Some don't. But as you observed, it's their undertaking....... > >What do you suggest is the way to go? > >Allen Hall in Fort Hall country > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > As far as "what do I suggest is the way to go?" I would have to ask, what are you trying to accomplish? If you are trying to preserve a certain way of life like the mountain men had for instance, then I think there are numerous ways to go. I think what re-enactors do is great, and if thats what "floats there stick", than more power to them. All of the requirements to be a member of the AMM for instance I am sure provide some very good learning experiences on subjects that potential and current members are interested in learning more about, and when you want to learn about something, a source of knowledge can be a very treasured possession. But I wonder what some of these folks who lived in the past, say Jed Smith, or Jim Bridger, or Broken Hand, or Bill Williams would say if they could see us communicating on the "internet", and living the way most of us do, and trying to copy there lifestyles by study and dress and whatever other way we care to. There is a saying that when you choose your partners to spend time in the woods or "on the ground" with, choose them very carefully. Personally I wouldn't choose mine primarily by what they wore or there outfit. northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 19 Dec 1999 22:20:42 -0600 Don't worry, Mr Colburn, it isn't likely that you will be asked to = participate in our little "fraternity initiation", not in my party = anyway. Perhaps you will be better served if you formed your own = outfit, complete with a charter full of high-falutin' words of your own = choosing. You could get plenty of serious historical research done = while keeping you feet on the ground for some good woodsrunning. Maybe = you will be able to meet your own requirements because I doubt you could = meet ours. Particularly since you don't seem to have a clue about what = they are. Your comments remind me of one of my relatives, long dead, thankfully, = that always imagined himself to be smart enough to insult me. He left = this world the same way he lived in it....full of himself and completely = unaware of the low regard in which he was held by all with whom he came = in contact. I always wondered what color the sky was in his world. Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Saturday, December 18, 1999 7:08 PM > WAshtahay- > At 01:46 PM 12/18/99 -0500, you wrote: > >Hey all, > > This is how we work it here in the Brigade.(in ref. to Dave Kanger's > quiestion > >on tasks) > > When you start as a Pilgrim, you start cold, Period....And do 'em as = you > go, if > >you have done 'em before you were invited to join the AMM, do 'em = again.... > It was so tempting to write a letter comparing this kind of conduct to > college fraternity initiations, poking fun at anyone who would put up = with > this. But I won't.=20 > =20 > Instead, I'll ask if anyone knows of an organization that really = combines > serious historical research with real live feet-on-the-ground = woodsrunning > on a more than quarterly or semi-annual basis. I'd really appreciate > knowing of such a group, even if I can take the time to join right = now. It > would be somehow uplifting to know that wome group somewhere is = actually > living up to the spirit and the letter of the high-falutin' words of = their > charter. =20 > LongWalker C. du B. >=20 >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 19 Dec 1999 21:57:05 -0600 Washtahay- one of these days I will learn not to try to have discussions on this topic. As you wish this to be continued on the list, here goes... At 04:07 PM 12/19/99 -0800, you wrote: > Exactly what is your "experience" regarding the outfits and equipage >of THE AMM members ? Approximately twenty years watching them; observing their outfits, equipage and mannerisms. Maybe 100-150 days spent in the company of various members in camp, on the trail or in the field, conducting research projects, as guests in their homes or guests in mine. >How much "real research" have you done ? I got started reading and researching in this field about 1980, and went to work for a local museum about then. By the time I went to college up in Chadron NE in '84 I thought I was doing pretty good. I then proceded to undergo an "advanced course" in research as a volunteer at the MFT. (At that time, the late Mr. Hanson was kind enough to comment that my outfit was "pretty good-you have to be within ten feet to see the mistakes".) In the intervening years I have continued researching the topic of the fur trade; in particular the presence of Europeans in the West up to about 1840 and the secondary trade in European goods by the natives of various areas. As part of my current job, I am conducting a review of the journals of North American fur traders, hunters, frontiersmen, and travelers from Columbus to about 1920 (I also freelance as a researcher for various professors and writers). Amongst other things over break, I am polishing a manuscript I was requested to write, and considering an offer to co-author a book. At various times in the past I have made a living as a fur hunter and trapper, relying on pre-1850 equipment and techniques. I've made a number of 1:1 museum-quality reproductions of various artifacts in exchange for references, manuscripts, and artifacts for my own collection. Working from descriptions in the literature I've made dugout and birchbark canoes, half-faced camps, etc. As time allows, I retrace the routes of various obscure travelers across the plains. If I might be so bold as to ask, sir, what is the extent of your own research? > Do you know what a AMM member's gear is supposed to emulate ? While I could paraphrase my understanding, it would seem simpler to quote from the Bossloper requirements Dean has posted; "Must have a full set of hand-cut and -sewn clothing and handmade accoutrements. These must be researched for authenticity of the 1800-40 period and be of a type which would have been seen on men in, or moving to, the Rocky Mountains. Rifles, saddles, traps, blankets, and other accoutrements that would normally have required the work of a specialized craftsman need not be handmade, but must be as authentic as can be purchased today." A best I can remember, those haven't changed since I first read the requirements in '81. >Have you attended a AMM event ? Walk-ins and hunting camps, by invitation. >Or are you making these observations based on what you see at regular >open rendezvous ? Most us of carry the same stuff everyone else does >when attending a rendezvous with the women and kids. Granted, all >AMM members do not carry museum quality gear, but to be sure, it is >right for the time period.when they are at a AMM event. "Right for the time period"? I find that interesting, based on some of the statements made to me by various members. I was told that these _were_ AMM events, that the equipment I saw was all "pre-1840". Sticking in my memory is a walk-in where I saw sueded split cowhide, bright orange chrome-tan leather, machine sewn clothing, fabric and blankets with modern-pattern printing, late pattern firearms (ca 1850 contract pieces, CW muskets, 1861 Navy Colt's), stainless-steel butcher knives, bowie knives, Tandy high-topped mocs, Taiwanese loomed beadwork, Bic lighters, filter-tip cigarettes, styrofoam coolers of bottled beer, plastic tarps for groundcloths, etc. You consider this "right for the period"? > Your inference to Dennis' comment about trusting his life with any >AMM member, seems to be that many AMM members are not trustworthy. Sir, >I consider that a insult. To suggest that because a AMM member was not > qualified to handle a medical emergency and therefore was not >trustworthy is a ridicules assumption. I apologize if you failed to understand the meaning of my statement. In response to his statement, I said that my experience had been to the contrary and cited an example. No inference "that many AMM members are not trustworthy"-a flat-out statement that my experience was different. I also apologize for not communicating with adequate clarity regarding the emergency. I am not saying that a lack of qualifications to deal with an emergency makes a person untrustworthy. I am saying that in my opinion running away and not even calling an ambulance _does_ qualify a person as not to be trusted. I could cite further examples from my own experience. I chose not to cite the experiences of others; I wasn't there, don't know all the details. > You have been contacted by many folks who are members of an organization >that pursues ongoing research and frequent time in the field, The members >of THE AMM do just that. As I said, it appears to me that many-if not the majority-of the members I have met are not concerned about historical accuracy-that they reach a comfort level and stop progressing. I also acknowledged that I have not met all the members of the AMM. >As far as historical recreation, I don't know what you are looking for. Need I keep repeating this? As I said, I am seeking an "organization that combines actual ongoing research, ongoing efforts for serious historical recreation, and frequent time in the field". It has been my experience that the AMM-at least what I have seen of it-is not the group I am seeking. > You say you would not want to be a member of any organization that you >could just join, No. Dennis said that. In response, I said "I tend to agree with Clemen's comments about not being willing to join any organization that would have me!" I apologize if my feeble attempt at a joke by means of a literary reference was lost on you. >Sir, you do not just join THE AMM. You are invited to join. Yep. In my case, several times beginning with an offer to sponsor me in 1983. >Then you serve a appropriate time period as a pilgrim before gaining >full membership, not to see if a person "fits in" but to gain the >knowledge and experience expected of AMM members. Then what purpose is served by making those who join already having that experience go through the same procedure? >If you were as well informed as you think you are you would know that >there are degrees of advancement in this organization and those are there > to serve as a challenge for the more experienced members. Gosh, as a matter of fact, I am aware of that-and so stated in my previous post. As I said before, it would seem to make more sense to start experienced new members working towards those levels rather than as beginners. > You have had the benefit of access to the vast amount of knowledge >available on this list which is here for you to use due to the >efforts of a AMM member, and yet you use it to refer to our requirements >as " fratboy initiations". Again Sir, I consider that a insult, and I >feel a apology is in order, not to me but to our organization. Let me get this straight-you want me to apologize because you mis-quote me above? Please see my previous post and read what I actually wrote. I am not responsible for you taking my comments out of context and mis-quote me, and I'll not apologize for it. >> Do not attempt to contact me off list because I will not respond, you >opened this line of discussion on this list, so here it is. >Larry Pendleton AMM # 1572 Bossloper I have answered your statements- ignoring your confrontational attitude, seemingly deliberate misquotes, and ignoring what I actually wrote. Perhaps at this point it would be best to acknowledge that we have had different experiences and drop it. LongWalker c. du B. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Douglas Hepner" Subject: MtMan-List: Learnin' Date: 19 Dec 1999 22:38:52 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BF4A71.D3477A20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think that if I get to the point where ALL my gear is perfect and I = have nothing else to learn, then re-living history (whether it be = "buckskinning", AMM, F&I, Revolutionary, etc. etc.) would no longer be = any fun for me. I think we are all hear to learn more aren't we? YMOS "Dull Hawk" ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BF4A71.D3477A20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think that if I get = to the point=20 where ALL my gear is perfect and I have nothing else to learn, then = re-living=20 history (whether it be "buckskinning", AMM, F&I, Revolutionary, etc. = etc.)=20 would no longer be any fun for me. I think we are all hear to learn more = aren't=20 we?
 
YMOS
"Dull=20 Hawk"
------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BF4A71.D3477A20-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne & Terri" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 19 Dec 1999 21:01:15 -0800 Hi Jim, That is the way it is out here in the northwest. The only thing I brought into this outfit when I joined was a set of clothes that I made up while doing the three times on the ground, before I put my papers into join. I had an old 50 cal Hawkins that had been in my family for years. and I pick up the rest of my gear while I was doing my pilgrim year. I got my bosoloper done and I will get my Hiveranno done soon. You take care 3 strings ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: MtMan-List: downing the AMM Date: 20 Dec 1999 00:41:05 -0800 I hope your AMM friends that you have camped with and know and visited their homes treat you as the friend you are????? I have attended several Amm events by invitation, one of which was a national event. I have eat slept and drank with them. All whom I`ve met are very serious about their authenticity of their equipment. All of my gear was acceptable but some not correct enough. Not a single person said anything about my gear, "until I ask about how to improve what I had". When giving suggestions on how to get closer to being more period correct it was done very politely. From what you say of the AMM in finding fault, I`ve seen just the opposite. As for Dennis, he is the head of the Ohio party. You don`t get in that position if you haven`t got your shit together. There are very few people who could camp as light as Dennis does. You might do a one or two niter but not many more. All of the AMM members I`ve met were very courteous and friendly. In Oct. a friend and myself were guests in the AMM camp at missinewa. Evidently we were accepted by all in camp for we were told we would be welcome as a GUEST in any AMM camp. We were invited back by several members one of which was a past national officer. Lanny quoted word for word on the clothing requirement. I have been a subscriber the the AMM publication the Tomahawk and Longrifle for many years. During these years off and on there requirements have been published. The magazine is written by AMM members. It would educate some of you to read this publication. It will by no means help those of you who know it all. Only those want to learn will benefit. Membership is as stated by invitation. An invitation is not easy to get. They get to know you, observe you, and listen to you expel your knowledge. I have set at nite when visitors at a public event would stop and tell of their knowledge. After a few words it was easy to know if they new what they talked of. Some of these people were members of other "elete" groups. This is not ment as a personal attack on anyone just my own personal observations. I`m not an AMM member, just a friend of some members. NUFF SED John (BIG JOHN) Hunt Longhunter Mountainman southwest Ohio ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DickSummers@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: downing the AMM Date: 20 Dec 1999 02:16:29 EST Previously written: "AMM Membership is by invitation. Membership is not easy to get." I am not a member of AMM, nor will I ever be due to my circumstance. But I understand and respect their code. It is not easy to become a part of history in one's own time, harder to become a part of our nation's history. It is my understanding and perception, that becoming a respected member of AMM is the closest thing to stepping back in time and becoming part of the brotherhood of the men that made the first maps of the West due to their "ramblings." Sir. Get in the spirit or get out. I'd say from the fur flying it's fortunate we're all typing what's on our minds instead of standing face to face. Dick Summers ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tim Nevins" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 19 Dec 1999 23:36:01 PST I would like to talk to learn more about the AMM I am located in Central Califoria and was wondering if there was someone here locally I could talk more about it with Tim Nevins >From: R Lahti >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan >Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 21:26:56 +0000 > > > >Mike Moore wrote: > > > > Capt. > > One of the bad things about this email is that you can't sit down >with the > > person you are talking to and spend a good time discussing an item. Like >this. > >Mike, > >Glad you thought my remarks worth repeating. But they are just my >thoughts and certainly not the last word. Probably the worst part of >talking this way is not being able to express feelings and not being >able to immediately rephrase for better understanding. So there is no >mistake about what I wrote, I was not justifying anything, I assure you. >I thought I was clarifying that Steve and I have been in private >conversation on this broad subject and I have been providing him with my >thoughts and opinions and my best advise as I felt would meet his >particular situation. > >I am not his sponsor but would welcome him as my guest. As such, I would >of course take responsibility for him. He has read what I have written >to him privately and in general to the list about how I view different >things and understands what I said and where I am coming from. > > My only question is: Why not have > > Steve wait till a warmer camp and start? It would give him more time to >have > > things ready and see what he needs to improve. > >He is welcome to wait until warmer weather. He is no stranger to the >cold though and only needs to know what it would take to deal with a NW >winter camp to participate in comfort and not feel out of place. I sense >from our talks that he does not wish to take shortcuts but would >appreciate getting a good start on "buckskinning" of any kind. He is >unique and other new people might be advised differently. > >I don't recall telling him or anyone that commercial tanned leather >cheapens or lowers the standards of our organization. What I have said >and what I have heard others say is that it can be an expensive and >unsatisfying alternative. I have no quarrel with commercially tanned >leather for authenticity's sake. I personally don't think the >commercially tanned "golden buckskin" bears any resemblance to any >commercial product available in the days of the Fur Trade. From what I >have read much leather of a commercial ilk was made and moved west. >Brain Tan is not the only leather ever worn by a frontiersman, just not >"Chrome Tanned Golden Buckskin". > >Another post posed the question of whether a candidate would be rejected >were he in such commercial leather. If it were my place to do so, I >certainly would not reject him on that basis but it is not my place to >say whether it is the policy of the AMM to make that type of negative >judgment. If asked I will say what I think is the better way to go >though. If someone wishes to wear such material after so many have >advised as to it's negative qualities then they may have at it. I >thought the bottom line in this organization was the man not what he was >wearing, in any case. I am even privy to a simple process that will turn >such leather into an almost satisfactory material with almost the same >properties, look and feel of brain tan. It will be better but still not >brain tan. But why bother unless there is no alternative? > >If someone wishes to change their outfit a few times before settling in >on what is comfortable I surely would not criticize. I certainly have >done that many times over myself. I wish someone had taken me by the ear >many years ago and talked to me like a Dutch Uncle and convinced me how >much money I was ultimately going to waste on chrome tan, split cow and >etc. before I finally did my first brain tan (which was not a pretty >sight but infinitely better than the substitutes that had gone before >and much more personally satisfying). > >Brain tan is the best even if done by a first timer. It is a skill we >all should have and endorse but it is not for everyone to be a tanner >nor is it the only material that will serve well. It is not even a >requirement that one be able to brain tan. It is only one of many skills >to choose from. I heartily endorse the use of period fabrics and utilize >them myself where they serve best. I am fortunate to have some brain tan >articles but there are alternatives and period correct alternatives at >that. > >As I said, no one is expected to come in full brain tan. Not in my camp >anyway. And a new person who wishes to see what it's all about is always >welcome dressed however. Any person who asks my advise or opinion gets >my best answer and all the alternatives. They deserve no less. > >There is nothing wrong with letting probationary members be pilgrims. >There is nothing wrong with trying to guide them in productive paths >either. I have seen new people go from talking about it for a year to >having a basic kit in two weeks so they would fit in, as they wished to >do on their first trip, realize much more enjoyment than they even >expected and leave the weekend so fired that their progress in the next >few months was outstanding. They were not pushed. No one is pushed to do >anything he is not up to nor should they be. Patience is a virtue and is >to be encouraged. Our Brigade practices the informal policy of camping >with a new person somewhere around three times before extending a formal >invitation to join. That can take patience. Are we still not in >agreement? > >Certainly a pilgrim/probationary has a year to get his "shit" together >if he wishes to take it. It ain't going to hurt a damned thing for him >to use commercial chrome tan while in his pilgrim period. If that is >what he's got then fine. If he doesn't even have that and yet thinks he >should be in full leathers and asks what is thought about such before he >goes out and buy's it, I submit there isn't a damned thing wrong with >advising him that he surely can find alternatives and is welcome to wait >until he can make or buy what would work the best. When any of us >finally get our brain tan we appreciate it all the more for the wait and >the functionality whether we are Bossloper or not. Hell if we all had >our "shit together when we were pilgrims.....hell we are all still >pilgrims or resting on our laurels and going no where. Even the >Hiveranno's. > >Unless I am not reading it right, the by-laws do not require anyone to >complete all requirements "after" being invited to join. There are >certain basic requirements that have to be met before being eligible for >membership, a certain number of things that must be met by the end of >the first year and a minimum number of the 20 that have to be met by the >end of the second year. > >Although this forum does not take the place of setting around a campfire >it is good to share thoughts as best can be done by thoughtful men of >good will. Such discussions refine and clarify and sometimes change how >we think and what we believe. I remain.... > >A "pilgrim" and >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' >"Aux Aliments de Pays" > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: MtMan-List: question Date: 20 Dec 1999 07:15:19 -0600 Here is a question for some of you folks to think about if you care to. If some of the famous people of the mountain man era where alive today, The same folks many of us study and admire,and had to live in this time period, what would they spend there time doing? Would they participate in historical re-enacting? Would they research history? Would they be trappers or explore the wilderness up in AK? Would they own there own businesses or be unemployed? Would they be on the internet? What would they think about the discussions on this list? northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronald Schrotter Subject: MtMan-List: AMM Requirements Date: 20 Dec 1999 08:35:14 -0800 (PST) YEEEHA! Now that's what I call a spirited discussion! There are a lot of people that do a lot of research about a lot of things. They become experts in the field, and know so much more than the average guy, and gain such high opinions of themselves that they just bore the shit out of everyone else who is in the area of expertise. They suck the joy out of the activity like a cold breeze will take thge light from a candle! I too have seen examples of the improper gear referred to, usually on pilgrims who are still learning. It is up to the experienced hands to point things like this out, but I hated to see dog soldiers inspecting everything brought into camp. The orange buckskins, filter tip smokes, bic lighters and such certainly should not be there, but it is up to those members with experience to show the proper way. That is how we ALL learned. Show me a man who makes no mistakes, and I'll show you a man who is too boring to be around. Dog, G.H.B., Wyoming __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Requirements Date: 20 Dec 1999 08:46:50 -0800 On Mon, 20 December 1999, Ronald Schrotter wrote: > > YEEEHA! Now that's what I call a spirited discussion! > > There are a lot of people that do a lot of research > about a lot of things. They become experts in the > field, and know so much more than the average guy, and > gain such high opinions of themselves that they just > bore the shit out of everyone else who is in the area > of expertise. They suck the joy out of the activity > like a cold breeze will take thge light from a candle! > I too have seen examples of the improper gear > referred to, usually on pilgrims who are still > learning. It is up to the experienced hands to point > things like this out, but I hated to see dog soldiers > inspecting everything brought into camp. The orange > buckskins, filter tip smokes, bic lighters and such > certainly should not be there, but it is up to those > members with experience to show the proper way. > That is how we ALL learned. Show me a man who > makes no mistakes, and I'll show you a man who is too > boring to be around. Dog, G.H.B., Wyoming > > __________________________________________________ Brother, Well put, we all have been there, but for some reason some seem to forget - everyone has to crawl before they walk and then run - remember this. Over the last forty years I have had some of the best garage sales, moving out items that I thought where really great and later found to be the wrong time period, or just wrong - period. I can take comfort in knowing that I told the buyer that was for such and such a period, or not correct if wanting to use it for such and such - be honest, just don't pass it on to a new person. When we stop learning or helping others in this sport, I'll move on. Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html _________________________________ Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question Date: 20 Dec 1999 09:59:19 -0800 I think we're comparing apples and oranges here. Both round and edible, but totally different. As well bring a prehistoric man here and try to make comparisons with today's life styles. But your point is well taken. -----Original Message----- >Here is a question for some of you folks to think about if you care to. >If some of the famous people of the mountain man era where alive today, The >same folks many of us study and admire,and had to live in this time period, >what would they spend there time doing? Would they participate in historical >re-enacting? Would they research history? Would they be trappers or explore >the wilderness up in AK? Would they own there own businesses or be >unemployed? Would they be on the internet? What would they think about the >discussions on this list? > >northwoods > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Smith Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: AMM Requirements] Date: 20 Dec 1999 12:20:54 EST > YEEEHA! Now that's what I call a spirited discussion! > = > There are a lot of people that do a lot of research > about a lot of things. They become experts in the > field, and know so much more than the average guy, and > gain such high opinions of themselves that they just > bore the shit out of everyone else who is in the area > of expertise. They suck the joy out of the activity > like a cold breeze will take thge light from a candle! > I too have seen examples of the improper gear > referred to, usually on pilgrims who are still > learning. It is up to the experienced hands to point > things like this out, but I hated to see dog soldiers > inspecting everything brought into camp. The orange > buckskins, filter tip smokes, bic lighters and such > certainly should not be there, but it is up to those > members with experience to show the proper way. > That is how we ALL learned. Show me a man who > makes no mistakes, and I'll show you a man who is too > boring to be around. Dog, G.H.B., Wyoming > = > __________________________________________________ Brother, Well put, we all have been there, but for some reason some seem to forget= - everyone has to crawl before they walk and then run - remember this. Over the last forty years I have had some of the best garage sales, movin= g out items that I thought where really great and later found to be the wrong t= ime period, or just wrong - period. I can take comfort in knowing that I told= the buyer that was for such and such a period, or not correct if wanting to u= se it for such and such - be honest, just don't pass it on to a new person. When we stop learning or helping others in this sport, I'll move on. Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Well it's about time Buck, where the heck you been, Dennis Miles and = your truly thought you got lost. Agree with you a 100% , all the AMM members I've run across in the = last 25 plus years do pretty much as you say, they teach and try and = help where they can. Have a great Holiday folks. Concho. ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm= ail.netscape.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Smith Subject: MtMan-List: Re: [Fw: Trade Kettles] Date: 20 Dec 1999 12:51:38 EST Hello Camp: Recieved this e-mail and thought members of this list would like the information being talked about. All started on another list about trade kettles, thickness, spinning or hammered, tinning, touch marks, etc. our = Mr. Conner got wind of the discussion (not on this list), but was asked to co= mment about Goose Bay Workshops kettles, then Peter Gobele got involved - interesting. Concho. _________________________________________________________________________= Sent: Sunday, December 19, 1999 12:46 PM Mike, Would you please put this on your e-mail group's listing that where talki= ng about trade kettles, maybe this will make the subject clearer for those interested in this item. = There was a similiar discussion that I had to get involved in a few years= ago, the "Long Hunter Assn." I believe it was would not let copper-tin lined boilers be used at their events, someone's opinion was - they where not correct for the time period. Vernon Bigsby (Valley Forge Historical Socie= ty helped with pictures of the remains of one found at that site back in the= 50's). Thanks Buck Conner dba/Clark & Sons Mercantile, Inc. _____________________________________________________________________ Gentlemen, Having been around for awhile and involved in this sport we call living history for 40 plus years, probably longer than several of you on this discussion have been in this world. Longer if you would count the uncount= able hours spent in museums with my father, before becoming interested (I'm to= ld I was 2-1/2 to 3 years of age on my first outing with him, would have been sooner but he didn't want the hassle of diaper changes). I was playing wi= th real tomahawks, wearing real war bonnets, playing with Colt 1849's, etc. before I was 5 years of age (all in the back rooms of some pretty good museums). I not bragging, it's just the way my father baby sat me in the 40's. Now back to the original topic - Goebel's trade kettles; are they to thic= k, should they be spun, touch marks, and tinning. I know Goebel, sell some o= f his items, and look at many, many different craftsman's wares and have done s= o for 25 years. Believe me it's hard to find good quality items, good prices, i= tems made correctly and a craftsman that doesn't make a half dozen then hang i= t up because he not making enough money or finds the work doesn't agree with h= im for one reason or the other and there's lots of these characters out ther= e. THICKNESS First let's look at thickness, not just Goebel's - originals that haven't= been wore down to paper thickness, that's tin-copper-brass-iron. Over the year= s I have collected, traded, or sold many kettles, pots, pans, boilers, etc. -= eating items found in camps, on the trail, or in settlements. = For thickness of the copper and brass they vary considerably in the walls= , bottoms and their weight. Some tinned and many not tinned, these items wh= ere all in excellent condition, as many where museum extras that Charley Hans= on had acquired or knew about and pointed me in that direction. Yes some are= thinner than others, even half the weight of Goebel's, Hanson thought the= y where probably Indian trade items, not the normal weight for settlement t= rade. He felt that many of the thinner kettles, pots and pans where made in Eng= land or India and where low in quality and cheaper for the trader to make his = deals with. They wanted them to be used up, broken, leaking, etc. by the next t= rade season, thus producing a supply and demand market, like one of you said t= he Indians moved around and created the perfect situation for wearing out th= eir thin cookware. A completely different story in the settlements, the cookw= are was to last for long periods of time, as was many of the voyagers kettles= carried on the freighter canoes, much heavier than the trade brother item= =2E If you make a study of these items as I have over the years, and several wel= l known friends like Charley Hanson [Museum of the Fur Trade}, Bill Large [barrel maker and collector], Vernon Bigsby [Valley Forge Museum], and th= e list could bore you to death have this has always been a discussion item = on thickness, (wall - compared to bottoms dia., etc.). Have personally seen = both sides of the discussion and some really neat copper, brass and tin kettle= s, pots, boilers, pans, etc. Charley thought that Goebel's items, thickness,= etc. would have been good trading post and settlements look alikes, about the = right weight, construction and size, that would have been used and lasted for y= ears. Look at the cast iron in museums compared to the heavy stuff we see today= , not even close, I have some that have a 1/8-3/16 wall at the very thickest an= d they survived from the 1700's. SPINNING Spinning has been around for centuries, look at the plates, kettles, pots= , pan, you name it from Europe before the Europeans came here, really nice stuff, much of the early items came here with the earliest settlers. Made= of pewter, brass, copper, etc. Spinning would have been present throughout t= he settlements and traded at many places, early on coming from the European market. Hammered would have been probably made here, when spinning hadn't= gotten into a full blown operation yet (early years), Mike Rock has much knowledge on spinning - probably could add to this. TINNING Tinning is real interesting, most originals that where tinned, where usua= lly done so very lightly - costs was everything. Hanson figured there where o= nly a few original tin items around at best, most have been retinned several ti= mes from their first tinning. The reason was back then like now, what do you = stir you food with, and what do you eat with ??? METAL whether its, pewter, si= lver, tin or iron - its metal, harder than the tin surface that you cooking ite= m has for a protective surface, so when you put your eating/stirring items in t= he cooking vessel your removing a small amount of tin, probably you have pas= sed more than one wants to think about. So as far as to the appearance of the= tin, is it original or something your local blacksmithy did ??? Tinning is something strange and the weather can play some real unusual trick on the= tinnier, I've tinned two pots at the same time and each looks different, finally sent them to Goebel to clean up, they looked different in color a= nd smoothness when gotten back from him - am told by Mike Rock that location= s do strange things in this field. "TOUCH MARKS" I think that Tim Connin has answered this, many do and probably just as m= any don't have touch marks, so that's an even deal that's not worth wasting o= ur time on. A few months ago a antique dealer friend showed me an early large French = trade kettle he had just traded for, after looking at it I asked to take it out= side for better light. Found Goebel's touch mark (scribed on the underside of = the rim - 1/16" lettering, very faint. I showed my friend what he had missed = and questioned his $250 price tag (a feeler tag as he puts it), he had bought= it wholesale for half that amount from a good supplier. A good reason that m= any craftsman have started using the stamped "touch mark", that's pleases man= y collector and museums, (would have been a 5 minute job to remove the scri= bed marks). I think I covered all your concerns about this subject and Peter Goebel's= kettles are as good as the samples he copies, look at his web site of one= sitting next to an original. Oh, Jim Hanson, Charley's son has a good article in one of the Fur Trade Quarterlies a few issues back, good information and available at the Muse= um of the Fur Trade. Buck Conner dba/ Clark & sons Mercantile, Inc. _____________________________________________________________________ Gentlemen, First off thank you for your concern about trade kettles in general and t= hanks to Buck for helping to make things clearer. OK group - Lets talk kettels -- right from the horses -- mouth. The kettel (correct English spelling - pre 1620) that I reproduce was tak= en from a ca. 1740 Potawatomie burial and measured .047 thickness ! My repro= was =2E050 thick. The original was also tin lined. Both the metal weight and = the tin lining would point to the kettel having been made for European or Colonia= l consumption, not a standard trade item. Trade kettels were thinner, .025 = to =2E037 is about the norm on the dozen or more originals I've measured. Ra= rely was one tinned. For domestic consumption was almost always tinned - there are a few exceptions, for beer making, chocolate production etc. Brass was about a = 50/50 deal. Metal spinning -- The Roman's spun helmet parts and shield bosses - B.C. = ! "One Man's Trash is Another Man's Treasure" put out by Museum Boymans - V= an Beuningen in Rotterdam or Dennis Diderot's Encyclopedia, kettels from the= late 1500's on are made by being -- "hammered or beaten on an anvil and shaped= by hollowing sinking raising and stretching. The vessel was then planished o= n the lathe ... are often clearly visible." In Tunica Treasure, by Jeoffry Brai= n, he mentions that the lathe turning often left holes in the center of the kettels. Two kettlels I have recently studied are taken from Dutch sites in N.Y., = both 17th century. No.#1 is spun with lathe marks and center very visible and is .032 thick unlined with the worst wired edge I've ever seen. No.#2 is hammered up (a kettel bowl really) and is now .021 thick - no do= ubt it started thicker. Early kettels would have rolled rivets (which often leak) I make these al= so. Average thickness is about .032, I make these also. Approx. 30-40% of original kettels have a hole in the bottom from the lat= he. I can do this too ! ALL kettles - English - French - Dutch are basically derived from the 15t= h and 16th century Dutch styles. If anyone has a problem, please call - I'm open to learn and change 1-(540)-456-7111 and we'll talk. I"M TRYING !!! Peter Goebel N.B. The Touchmark stays. = ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm= ail.netscape.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BarneyPFife@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Requirements Date: 20 Dec 1999 13:22:59 EST Now I'm not an AMM Brother, and still consider myself a pilgrim as I've only been buckskinning for about 7 years or so, but I have learned this from sharing time with AMM boys: First, like the members of every organization, some are just members and some are truly Brothers; to wit, a howling snowstorm where many tents were blown down, including trade lodges that belonged to AMM guys. When the poles were snapping, some of the Brothers came to help, while some of the Members stayed hunkered down til daybreak, then jumped on their steel ponies and left as fast as they could. Hardly the definition of Brortherhood. I have also seen the evidence of shortcomings and bad judgment, (read as entertainment) to wit: the morning after an all-night freezing deluge when I, the Pilgrim woke up warm and dry, while in their little elite, private enclave, set up back in the woods away from the body of the Rendezvous, they woke up soaking wet and freezing cold from setting up camp in what later turned into a small lake. Or the time some set up a little too low on the bank of a river and after an all night rain woke up in their bedrolls, floating. I have also seen cases of Brothers 'hiding' period incorrect items under those that were correct, to wit: winter mocs made around insulated Pac Boot Liners, or thermal underwear worn under braintan shirts and pants, or even some that make their early mornin' coffee on a propane stove. But the most important thing I have found is that most, (but not all) of them will impart their knowledge if asked, and will try and help you to learn what IS right, because they are the ones that have done the research and spent the time putting their knowledge to work. This to me is one of the most important purposes of their organization, and they do this job admirably. In my personal experience, if you want the skinny on something, THEY are the guys to ask. Just my two cents worth. Barn ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question Date: 20 Dec 1999 11:24:53 -0800 northwoods wrote: > > Here is a question for some of you folks to think about if you care to. Northwoods, Sure been a lively weekend! I'll through out my thoughts on your questions if I may. It may not be what you expected though. > If some of the famous people of the mountain man era where alive today, The > same folks many of us study and admire,and had to live in this time period, > what would they spend there time doing? They'd be doing what that type of personality or a person in that economic situation would be doing in this day and age. Would they participate in historical > re-enacting? Maybe, maybe not. Would they research history? Maybe, maybe not. Would they be trappers or explore > the wilderness up in AK? Maybe, maybe not. Would they own there own businesses or be > unemployed? Depends on their personality and their economic status. Would they be on the internet? Probably since that is the coming thing in this day and age. I swore I would never have one of these things but now I do and get much enjoyment from it. What would they think about the > discussions on this list? If they were interested in the subject as we are, they would probably join in or listen with fascination. They are not living in this day and age. They are dead and lived in a different era with different points of reference. That is why it is so hard to put one's self in their shoes and why it is so much fun to try. It isn't any fun to pretend to be a fireman after you get old enough to be one. You either become a firefighter or cop or whatever or you do something else in this age to feed yourself. You can't say, "I sure wish I was back to living in the Rocky Mountains in 1800-whatever like I did before I got stuck here." Doesn't work that way. You can say, " I sure wish I knew what it was like to live in the Rocky Mountains in 1800-whatever. By golly, I think I will read up on it and go try it as much as I can, considering the many changes that have taken place in almost 200 years. It won't be the exact same but I'll try to come as close as I can and do the best I can and at the least I'll have a better appreciation for what it was like not to be able to totally rely on all the modern conveniences and tools available now". If you are the type of individual that did go west with the other trail blazers, then maybe you will be very successful at recreating the feeling or perhaps you will not. They didn't all do well and they didn't all survive to become legends. Of the folks that do this sorta thing now, there are those that do well at "getting into the spirit" and those that do somewhat less than "getting into the spirit" but in all cases, if anyone is trying and doing their best, they are coming as close as anyone in capturing what it must have been like. But none of us will be one hundred percent sure we have experienced what "they" experienced. And none of "them" would be any more distinguishable from the rest of us in this time frame simply because they would be living in this time with it's historical perspective and level of "civilization". I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 20 Dec 1999 12:48:10 -0800 John Kramer wrote: > Get out in the woods and get greasy dirty. Works every time. Well said, John Kramer. Well said. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 20 Dec 1999 12:56:31 -0800 Phyllis and Don Keas wrote: > > Reply to: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan > I agree with you on the orange leather. I hate the damn stuff. Don, We come close to agreeing on at least one thing and I am sure there are many others. As to hating the damned stuff, I am more saddened that folks either buy it thinking they are "cutting a fat hog" or are told that it is just fine. They are either being cheated or cheating themselves. I guess there are many lessons learned we can't pass on but must let folks find out for them selves. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Smith Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: AMM Requirements] Date: 20 Dec 1999 16:50:24 EST BarneyPFife@aol.com wrote: = First, like the members of every organization, some are just members and = some are truly Brothers; to wit, a howling snowstorm where many tents were blo= wn down, including trade lodges that belonged to AMM guys. When the poles we= re snapping, some of the Brothers came to help, while some of the Members st= ayed =2E......... I have also seen the evidence of shortcomings and bad judgment,....... I have also seen cases of Brothers 'hiding' period incorrect items under = those that were correct,...... But the most important thing I have found is that most, (but not all) of = them will impart their knowledge if asked, and will try and help you to learn = what IS right, because they are the ones that have done the research and spent= the time putting their knowledge to work. This to me is one of the most impo= rtant purposes of their organization, and they do this job admirably. In my personal experience, if you want the skinny on something, THEY are the gu= ys to ask. = Just my two cents worth. Barn ---------------------- Barn, The longer your involved with this sport or most other sports you will fi= nd those that "take short cuts" (cheat) and those that work at what the game= is all about. The one's that take the "short cuts" - only short cut themselv= es, others are aware of what's going on - as you have stated, that's sad. The= y are the one's that usually don't offer to help or split when the heat is on, = not someone to learn from. The larger majority of the AMM seem to be willing to share a fire, food o= r help when needed with knowledge or a hand offered as a brother. That's th= e way we should all me, everyone starts "green" then grows. The ones you have mentioned are still GREEN no matter how long they have been involved in t= his sport, they haven't learned a damn thing - sure wouldn't want to depend o= n someone like that in a "hairy situtation". Thanks are your two cents worth Barn, we listen and like the AMM boys - t= hey try to improve the image of the AMM and this sport in general, the sooner= people get away from "I'm better than you" crap, the better off everyone = would be. Dennis Miles, Larry Pendleton, Buck Conner, Capt. Lathi and several o= thers would help at the drop of a hat, as many other brothers on this list, I k= now they have helped with knowledge and support for me and I thank them, Oh -= I'm not an AMM member. My two cents worth. Concho. ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm= ail.netscape.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question Date: 20 Dec 1999 18:53:21 EST In a message dated 12/20/99 northwoods@ez-net.com writes: << If some of the famous people of the mountain man era where alive today, >> Probably trade the brown leather and horse fer black leather and a hog. Longshot ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 20 Dec 1999 17:11:59 -0800 Ratcliff wrote: > > Don't worry, Mr Colburn, it isn't likely that you will be asked to participate in our little "fraternity initiation", not in my party anyway. He left this world the same way he lived in it....full of himself and completely unaware of the low regard in which he was held by all with whom he came in contact. I always wondered what color the sky was in his world. Brother Ratcliff, You take the words right out of my mouth! I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 20 Dec 1999 19:03:25 -0800 Jim Colburn wrote: > > Washtahay- > one of these days I will learn not to try to have discussions on this > topic. As you wish this to be continued on the list, here goes... Jim, Perhaps that is not the lesson you should learn. I submit, from what I have seen you write, that what you need to learn is how to have discussions on this topic. I read down through your resume and find no mention of communication skills. Your resume is quit impressive and you obviously have much to offer but you seem to lack the ability to offer it in such a way that it will be absorbed by your lesser's. I'm wondering what is behind the contentional/confrontational tone of your musings? Have you been snubbed by members? Have your thoughtful and graciously offered suggestions been rejected? Have you been misunderstood and rejected as a child? It's a mystery. Another question comes to mind. Why haven't you joined the organization and made good faith efforts to change what you see wrong from within? That seems to be a fairer way of dealing with the shortcomings you have observed and I must admit do or have existed. There is much about other organizations I am familiar with, but do not belong to, that I think amiss. I don't go to their meetings and criticize or belittle them. If I'm not willing to join and be part of the solution then I should keep my council to myself and not be an ineffectual noise in the trees. An example in point, and I quote: "It was so tempting to write a letter comparing this kind of conduct to college fraternity initiations, poking fun at anyone who would put up with this. But I won't." What about that statement by you do you not find insulting? I was tempted to write a letter telling you what an pompous ass I thought you were (and had proven yourself to be) and include my observations as to the lack of breeding or specifically the lack of legitimate parentage I suspected you might suffer under. But I won't. So don't be offended. You simply misunderstand me. Yea right! I'll quote you one more time: "Need I keep repeating this? As I said, I am seeking an "organization that > combines actual ongoing research, ongoing efforts for serious historical > recreation, and frequent time in the field". It has been my experience > that the AMM-at least what I have seen of it-is not the group I am seeking." You have hit the nail on the head. This is not the organization for you. Not at this time. It does not meet your requirements and you should not have anything more to do with it until it measures up. You are over qualified. Too skilled, too learned, too independent, too accomplished. The AMM is looking for men of good will who want to learn even if they are already knowledgeable, who want to share even if they have little to offer but themselves, who want to be part of a "brotherhood" and family of like minded individuals even if they and the "brotherhood" are not perfect but only trying to be. The AMM is looking for men who wish to challenge themselves beyond where they have already gone. You've all ready done it all. I am saddened that I must inform you that in my considered opinion you do not fit in that category at this time. With increased maturity, perhaps. But Jim, not right now. Sorry. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' P.S. I got the joke about Clemen's comments. It was feeble. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: farseer Subject: MtMan-List: Archives? Date: 20 Dec 1999 21:06:11 -0600 AGGHHH!! My hard drive went under, and I lost a number of posts I'd been savin for future reference. Is there an archive someplace? I dimly recollect seeing mention of one. Any help would be appreciated. todd ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne & Terri" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 19 Dec 1999 19:07:19 -0800 Brother, If I remember right that is the best way to learn how to do it right or learn you ain't doing it right and have to ask someone to show you the right way. 3-strings ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 20 Dec 1999 20:11:36 -0800 Tim Nevins wrote: > > I would like to talk to learn more about the AMM I am located in Central > Califoria and was wondering if there was someone here locally I could talk > more about it with Tim, If no one has come forth, by now you should know that any of a number of us will chat with you off line. Just pick someone you feel comfortable and ask them what you want to know. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 20 Dec 1999 20:37:10 -0800 northwoods wrote: > So what is the ultimate result of making a new member of your club make a > "brain tan" outfit? Seems like the comparison to a college initiation is a > good one. Northwoods, Where does this question come from? I think it has pretty much been clearly stated that the AMM does not require this. Was this question by you put out before that was made clear? Thought it was made clear that it is not even a mandatory requirement. Not to say that some folks may actually think it is but that's not what it say's or how it reads. And why the confrontational comment about "it being compared to a college initiation? Is the concept of "your ball, your rules" so hard to understand and accept with grace? Perhaps you aren't the guilty one. I may have misunderstood you. Sorry. > > The desire to emulate and preserve the lifestyles of people who we admire > that have come before us is definitely an admirable one. But I often think that to > truly know what life was like for say a "mountain man" greater sacrifices > would have to be made than studying first hand narratives and trying to > dress like them. The AMM, like similar organizations try's to take it beyond that. Such organizations, invariably have a few joiners in amongst the doers. Hardly fair to paint every member or even the organization with the same brush because of a few (perhaps even not just a few). And going on "camping trips "for a few months of the year > don't quite cut it either. Probably not. I'm fortunate to be fairly young for being retired. I could go pretty near year round if I cared to. Not practical and not something I personally want to do. I like going with a friend or two and they all aren't retired like me. I have my own limitations as most of us do and that probably keeps me from getting out any more than I do but I'm not untypical of my fellows in this outfit. I get on the ground probably 4 to 6 times a year, winter, spring, summer, and fall. I an my companions do it as best we know how and as best as modern constraints will allow. I don't see that as an apology, just a statement of fact. If you get on the ground and do it more realistically than I do, more power to you. You are to be envied. > Some folks will never understand what it would have been like to have lived > back then. I suspect that the truth be known, none of us understands what it was like to have lived back then. I don't think it is possible in a practical way to do that in this age. You can come close but you can't completely experience what they experienced and even more important, as hard as you might try, you can not think the same thoughts the same way as they did. I don't know of anyone who can totally forget what they know as a modern man and then immerse themselves in another age. I would compare it to certain archeologists today who spend a lot > of time trying to analyze data and doing research and simply don't spend any > time seriously trying to understand what it would have been like to be in > the shoes of the person or persons they are studying. That is probably the point where re-enactors and your archeologists part company. One knows the history but the other knows the feel of the ground better and perhaps some history too. > How many folks who are in the AMM have wintered alone in a remote area with > no contact with folks or resupply? There are folks who do it and its the > only life they know. Probably not many. As has been eloquently pointed out all ready it is not something that even the mountain man did by choice. So why is it even brought up? Confrontational? > I think sometimes folks with the desire to be historically accurate get > carried away and lose site of there true goals and the intent of there > undertaking. I think sometimes folks forget that no matter how involved in this sorta thing you get or no matter how knowledgeable you are, we are still just big boys playing "cowboys and indians" out in a much bigger field and with much more deadly weapons than we did when we were kids. It needs to be taken seriously but not too seriously. This is for the fun of it. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ron Chamberlain" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Archives? Date: 20 Dec 1999 21:32:43 -0700 http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html cstmzd@ida.net -----Original Message----- >AGGHHH!! My hard drive went under, and I lost a number of posts I'd been >savin for future reference. Is there an archive someplace? I dimly >recollect seeing mention of one. Any help would be appreciated. > > >todd > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: A Simple But Touching Story Date: 20 Dec 1999 20:34:00 -0800 I think it's time to change the tone of this "thread" to something a little more seasonal........what say ye all?? ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, December 20, 1999 9:54 PM > > A CHRISTMAS STORY > by Rian B. Anderson > > Pa never had much compassion for the lazy or those who squandered > their means and then never had enough for the necessities. But for those > who were genuinely in need, his heart was as big as all outdoors. It was > from him that I learned the greatest joy in life comes from giving, not > from receiving. > > It was Christmas Eve 1881. I was fifteen years old and feeling like > the world had caved in on me because there just hadn't been enough > money to buy me the rifle that I'd wanted so bad that year for Christmas. > > We did the chores early that night for some reason. I just figured Pa > wanted a little extra time so we could read in the Bible. So after supper > > was over I took my boots off and stretched out in front of the fireplace > and waited for Pa to get down the old Bible. I was still feeling sorry > for > myself and, to be honest, I wasn't in much of a mood to read Scriptures. > But Pa didn't get the Bible, instead he bundled up and went outside. > I couldn't figure it out because we had already done all the chores. > I didn't worry about it long though, I was too busy wallowing in > self-pity. > > Soon Pa came back in. It was a cold clear night out and there was ice > in his beard. "Come on, Matt," he said. "Bundle up good, it's cold out > tonight." > > I was really upset then. Not only wasn't I getting the rifle for > Christmas, > now Pa was dragging me out in the cold, and for no earthly reason > that I could see. We'd already done all the chores, and I couldn't think > of anything else that needed doing, especially not on a night like this. > But I knew Pa was not very patient at one dragging one's feet when > he'd told them to do something, so I got up and put my boots back on > and got my cap, coat, and mittens. Ma gave me a mysterious smile > as I opened the door to leave the house. Something was up, but I > didn't know what. > > Outside, I became even more dismayed. There in front of the house > was the work team, already hitched to the big sled. Whatever it was > we were going to do wasn't going to be a short, quick, little job. I > could > tell. We never hitched up the big sled unless we were going to haul a > big load. Pa was already up on the seat, reins in hand. I reluctantly > climbed up beside him. The cold was already biting at me. I wasn't > at all happy. > > When I was on, Pa pulled the sled around the house and stopped in > front of the woodshed. He got off and I followed. "I think we'll put on > the > high sideboards," he said. "Here, help me." > > The high sideboards! It had been a bigger job than I wanted to do > with just the low sideboards on, but whatever it was we were going to > do would be a lot bigger with the high sideboards on. > > When we had exchanged the sideboards Pa went into the woodshed > and came out with an armload of wood---the wood I'd spent all summer > hauling down from the mountain, and then all fall sawing into blocks and > splitting. What was he doing? Finally I said something. "Pa," I asked, > "what are you doing?" " > > You been by the Widow Jensen's lately?" he asked. > > The Widow Jensen lived about two miles down the road. Her husband > had died a year or so before and left her with three children, the oldest > > being eight. Sure, I'd been by, but so what? "Yeah," I said, "why?" > > "I rode by just today," Pa said. "Little Jakey was out digging around > in > the woodpile trying to find a few chips. They're out of wood, Matt." That > > was all he said and then he turned and went back into the woodshed for > another armload of wood. I followed him. > > We loaded the sled so high that I began to wonder if the horses would > be able to pull it. Finally, Pa called a halt to our loading, then we > went to > the smoke house and Pa took down a big ham and a side of bacon. He > handed them to me and told me to put them in the sled and wait. When > he returned he was carrying a sack of flour over his right shoulder and > a smaller sack of something in his left hand. "What's in the little > sack?" > I asked. > > "Shoes. They're out of shoes. Little Jakey just had gunny sacks > wrapped around his feet when he was out in the woodpile this morning. I > got the children a little candy too. It just wouldn't be Christmas > without > a little candy." > > We rode the two miles to Widow Jensen's pretty much in silence. I > tried > to think through what Pa was doing. We didn't have much by worldly > standards. Of course, we did have a big woodpile, though most of what > was left now was still in the form of logs that I would have to saw into > blocks and split before we could use it. We also had meat and flour, so > we could spare that, but I knew we didn't have any money, so why was > Pa buying them shoes and candy? Really, why was he doing any of > this? Widow Jensen had closer neighbors than us. It shouldn't have > been our concern. > > We came in from the blind side of the Jensen house and unloaded the > wood as quietly as possible, then we took the meat and flour and shoes > to the door. We knocked. The door opened a crack and a timid voice > said, "Who is it?" > > "Lucas Miles, Ma'am, and my son, Matt. Could we come in for a bit?" > > Widow Jensen opened the door and let us in. She had a blanket > wrapped around her shoulders. The children were wrapped in another > and were sitting in front of the fireplace by a very small fire that > hardly > gave off any heat at all. Widow Jensen fumbled with a match and finally > lit the lamp. > > "We brought you a few things, Ma'am," Pa said and set down the sack > of flour. I put the meat on the table. Then Pa handed her the sack that > had the shoes in it. She opened it hesitantly and took the shoes out one > pair at a time. There was a pair for her and one for each of the > children-- > -sturdy shoes, the best, shoes that would last. I watched her carefully. > She bit her lower lip to keep it from trembling and then tears filled her > > eyes and started running down her cheeks. She looked up at Pa like > she wanted to say something, but it wouldn't come out. > > "We brought a load of wood too, Ma'am," Pa said, then he turned to > me and said, "Matt, go bring enough in to last for awhile. Let's get that > > fire up to size and heat this place up." > > I wasn't the same person when I went back out to bring in the wood. > I had a big lump in my throat and, much as I hate to admit it, there were > > tears in my eyes too. In my mind I kept seeing those three kids huddled > around the fireplace and their mother standing there with tears running > down her cheeks and so much gratitude in her heart that she couldn't > speak. My heart swelled within me and a joy filled my soul that I'd never > > known before. I had given at Christmas many times before, but never > when it had made so much difference. I could see we were literally > saving the lives of these people. > > I soon had the fire blazing and everyone's spirits soared. The kids > started giggling when Pa handed them each a piece of candy and > Widow Jensen looked on with a smile that probably hadn't crossed her > face for a long time. She finally turned to us. "God bless you," she > said. > "I know the Lord himself has sent you. The children and I have been > praying that he would send one of his angels to spare us." > > In spite of myself, the lump returned to my throat and the tears > welled > up in my eyes again. I'd never thought of Pa in those exact terms before, > > but after Widow Jensen mentioned it I could see that it was probably > true. > I was sure that a better man than Pa had never walked the earth. I > started > remembering all the times he had gone out of his way for Ma and me, > and many others. The list seemed endless as I thought on it. > > Pa insisted that everyone try on the shoes before we left. I was > amazed > when they all fit and I wondered how he had known what sizes to get. > Then I guessed that if he was on an errand for the Lord that the Lord > would make sure he got the right sizes. > > Tears were running down Widow Jensen's face again when we stood > up to leave. Pa took each of the kids in his big arms and gave them a > hug. > They clung to him and didn't want us to go. I could see that they missed > their pa, and I was glad that I still had mine. > > At the door Pa turned to Widow Jensen and said, "The Mrs. wanted me > to invite you and the children over for Christmas dinner tomorrow. The > turkey will be more than the three of us can eat, and a man can get down- > right cantankerous if he has to eat turkey for too many meals. We'll be > by > to get you about eleven. It'll be nice to have some little ones around > again. > Matt, here, hasn't been little for quite a spell." I was the youngest. > My two > older brothers and two older sisters were all married and had moved away. > > Widow Jensen nodded and said, "Thank you, Brother Miles. I don't have > to say, "'May the Lord bless you,' I know for certain that He will." > > Out on the sled I felt a warmth that came from deep within and I > didn't > even notice the cold. When we had gone a ways, Pa turned to me and said, > "Matt, I want you to know something. Your ma and me have been tucking a > little money away here and there all year so we could buy that rifle for > you, > but we didn't have quite enough. Then yesterday a man who owed me a > little money from years back came by to make things square. Your ma > and me were real excited, thinking that now we could get you that rifle, > and > I started into town this morning to do just that. But on the way I saw > little > Jakey out scratching in the woodpile with his feet wrapped in those gunny > > sacks and I knew what I had to do. So, Son, I spent the money for shoes > and a little candy for those children. I hope you understand." > > I understood, and my eyes became wet with tears again. I understood > very well, and I was so glad Pa had done it. Just then the rifle seemed > very low on my list of priorities. Pa had given me a lot more. He had > given > me the look on Widow Jensen's face and the radiant smiles of her three > children. For the rest of my life, whenever I saw any of the Jensens, or > split a block of wood, I remembered, and remembering brought back > that same joy I felt riding home beside Pa that night. Pa had given me > much more than a rifle that night, he had given me the best Christmas > of my life. > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 20 Dec 1999 22:51:13 -0600 Washtahay- At 07:03 PM 12/20/99 -0800, Capt. Lahti wrote: >snip< >Perhaps that is not the lesson you should learn. I submit, from what I >have seen you write, that what you need to learn is how to have >discussions on this topic. You might well be right. For instance, I hardly expected a coherent response after your earlier response to Ratcliff's deliberate misquote. Today is just full of surprises! >I read down through your resume and find no >mention of communication skills. Let me see if I have this straight. I answered a question regarded my qualifications, and now am being attacked based on my having qualifications? It is more than likely that I have a communication problem in the context of the modern world. I am inclined to accept that people will behave in line with their stated code, and yes-I do get perturbed when they don't. >I'm >wondering what is behind the contentional/confrontational tone of your >musings? >Another question comes to mind. Why haven't you joined the organization >and made good faith efforts to change what you see wrong from within? Capt., I have always had a fairly high opinion of your judgement, so I leave this up to you. Do you want the answer to these questions and the remainder of your letter answered on-list? LongWalker c. du B. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DickSummers@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question Date: 21 Dec 1999 01:16:05 EST I believe we have a certain "historical" perception regarding what a mountaineer would do -- reenact --- get on the Internet -- things you pose. I am not sure we can guess what the men we celebrate as heroes would do. It strikes me that what we might presuppose men that lived in the Shining Mountains during the fur trade would do thereafter is our folly. We might guess that men that lived by their wits, in solitary congregations might live solitary lives when they left the mountains. If you follow the footsteps of Meek, Ermatinger, Newell, and Rusell, you will find men that when they left the mountains they participated in organizations that formed the first provisional government west of the Rocky Mountains. Russell stood with his bretheren, and Joseph Gale -- a man that sent him to an uncertain future -- and formed an alliance that is a part of history. What experience of living in the mountains prepared these men for leaving the mountains and forming a cooperative alliance that carried American history to another level? Brotherhood? Perhaps. Dick Summers ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ad.miller@mindspring.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: A Simple But Touching Story Date: 21 Dec 1999 11:35:29 -0500 Thanks John, for that WONDERFUL story. 'Nuff said! Ad Miller >I think it's time to change the tone of this "thread" to something a little >more seasonal........what say ye all?? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: brain tan Date: 21 Dec 1999 09:57:22 -0800 Jim Colburn wrote: > Capt., I have always had a fairly high opinion of your judgement, so I > leave this up to you. Do you want the answer to these questions and the > remainder of your letter answered on-list? Mister Colburn, By all means, address your answers and opinion of me on list for the benefit of those who have not already the answers nor formed an opinion. You will excuse me of course. I have more pressing matters to attend to and I yield the field to you. You will have the last word between us. I remain...... Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question Date: 21 Dec 1999 10:08:36 -0800 DickSummers@aol.com wrote: > What experience of living in the mountains prepared these men for leaving the > mountains and forming a cooperative alliance that carried American history to > another level? > > Brotherhood? Perhaps. Dick, I found your remarks illuminating and perceptive. It begs further investigation and discussion which I do not feel adequate to address. It does explain why societal gatherings and fraternal groupings of like minded men is so necessary, so common, quit natural and generally healthful for the human condition. Thank you for your insight. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question Date: 21 Dec 1999 11:11:54 -0800 Dick, I'd call it perhaps nothing more than surviving in numbers. Loners did not usually last long. I personally would not attribute "brotherhood" to any part of what held a fur company together....if that's your question. Friendships quite obviously developed but there was nothing fraternal in the trapping industry....as I see it. John Funk ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 1999 10:08 AM > > > DickSummers@aol.com wrote: > > > What experience of living in the mountains prepared these men for leaving the > > mountains and forming a cooperative alliance that carried American history to > > another level? > > > > Brotherhood? Perhaps. > > Dick, > > I found your remarks illuminating and perceptive. It begs further > investigation and discussion which I do not feel adequate to address. It > does explain why societal gatherings and fraternal groupings of like > minded men is so necessary, so common, quit natural and generally > healthful for the human condition. Thank you for your insight. I > remain.... > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: MtMan-List: A Note of Thanks Date: 21 Dec 1999 11:25:10 -0800 I regret (especially at this time of year) that several good men have gotten into a flame war, especially as it involves the American Mountain Men of which I am proud to be a member. I would like to state for the record that I have participated in this list for some time, and always enjoy and appreciate the contributions of Mssr Longwalker Courier de Bois. I have not met the man personally, but judging by his writings he takes a deep interest in our time period, does his research well, and interprets the results intelligently. I believe it is to his credit that he also seeks as much field experience as possible. I cannot speak for the entire AMM, but personally I value good research, especially in an area (the Canadian fur trade) which is closely associated with the "golden age" of the American fur trappers. The AMM, like any largish group, has people at various skill levels, and it is fair to say that some go farther than others, indeed, as their "comfort levels" dictate. I am also sorry to say that some fall short in simple and unnecessary ways, although many would forgive them in the spirit of brotherhood. Some of us are more concerned with "getting out" and some are more fascinated by the details of gear and skills. I myself, being pretty much a "city boy" have enjoyed experiences and brotherhood which I never thought possible, but I am aware that my wilderness skills cannot be compared to one who grew up in, or spent years in, the great outdoors far from civilization. I believe all of us on this list are seeking to understand this experience, but of course, it is practically impossible today with boundaries, conservation laws, and mechanical intrusions from high and low. We can relive the glory for a few days or even weeks, and we can gain some degree of the self confidence and resiliance which comes from mastering simple equipment to do a complicated task (surviving in the wilderness). The founding member of the AMM, Walt Hayward, is still alive and active. He established the principles of survivalism, historical accuracy, and brotherhood as the basis of the AMM. These simple premises generate much discussion. Does "pure survivalism" contradict "perfect accuracy" when faced with the need to process water or seek modern medical assistance? The ultimate objective is self-reliance and independence of mind, in all areas of our life, modern as well as historical. I would not presume to put words in the mouth of other AMM members, but it should be understood that "getting out and doing it" is a core value, which sets the AMM apart from "Historical Re-enactors" such as the Mansker's Station group which seeks the best possible historical accuracy, supported by multiple references, with strict rules and a juried selection process. The AMM has a selection process as well, but it seeks to evaluate the spirit and interest of the prospect, and looks for growth in skills and accuracy rather than perfection. Does our process occasionally misfire -- do members sometimes slack off -- you bet. We're human like anyone else, but we are a brotherhood and defend our own. Many AMM members have found it difficult to get out as often as desired -- it's a common problem in this modern world, and some of us may even be sensitive about it. So my hat is off to anyone who wants to get out frequently, and I for one would like to thank LongWalker C d B for his frequent contributions to this list. I would also agree that we should all read the words posted here with some care, as it is a sorrowing thing to see proud men shouting past each other. This is a written forum, and the rules of engagement are different than a spirited discussion around a fire, where hasty words or misunderstandings can be corrected on the spot. My best wishes for a merry Christmas and a spectacular new year. It should be a clear night tomorrow, here in Southern California, and I plan to be out with friends singing Christmas Carols under the brightest full moon of the century. Respectfully Submitted Patrick Quilter AMM #1658. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: BarneyPFife@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Note of Thanks Date: 21 Dec 1999 15:21:58 EST Amen Pat. You too are to be commended for your contributions to the list, most especially this last one. Joy to all, and may each and every one of you and yours have a wonderful, healthy, properous holiday season. Barn ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John L. Allen" Subject: MtMan-List: A Simple but Touching Story Date: 21 Dec 1999 15:33:13 -0500 Dear Mr. Funk, I like to think of myself as pretty hard-bitten and crusty. But by the time I'd finished your story I was close to bawling. May have been touching but it sure as hell wasn't simple. Many, many thanks for helping us remember what Christmas is all about--whatever one's religious persuasion or lack thereof. Blessing of the season to one and all. John Allen ******************************************************************* Dr. John L. Allen 21 Thomas Drive Storrs, CT 06268 860/487-1346 johnlallen@uconn.cted.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RangerSF5@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: A Simple But Touching Story Date: 21 Dec 1999 17:12:10 EST In a message dated 12/21/99 10:33:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, ad.miller@mindspring.com writes: << Thanks John, for that WONDERFUL story. 'Nuff said! >> Hi Everyone, Somewhere I missed that story.Can someone please forwarded it to me? Thank You Bob Bordentown,NJ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Simple but Touching Story Date: 21 Dec 1999 14:32:12 -0800 Dr. Allen, Tis my contribution to you all. May it put all out hearts in the right place. Thank you for your kind words. We all need that message from time to time. John Funk ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 1999 12:33 PM > Dear Mr. Funk, > > I like to think of myself as pretty hard-bitten and crusty. But by the time > I'd finished your story I was close to bawling. May have been touching but > it sure as hell wasn't simple. Many, many thanks for helping us remember > what Christmas is all about--whatever one's religious persuasion or lack > thereof. > > Blessing of the season to one and all. > > John Allen > > ******************************************************************* > Dr. John L. Allen > 21 Thomas Drive > Storrs, CT 06268 > 860/487-1346 > johnlallen@uconn.cted.net > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronald Schrotter Subject: MtMan-List: Happy Holidays Date: 21 Dec 1999 18:11:02 -0800 (PST) Monsieur Funk, A wonderful tale. Thank you. May all on this list have a most joyous holiday season, and their families, extended and otherwise do the same. Dog, Gabe's Hole Brig. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: MtMan-List: Another Note of Thanks Date: 21 Dec 1999 21:20:51 -0500 Pat, I commend you on your gracious words and thoughts. You have accomplished what several of us (I am certain) were contemplating, which is to provide a kind and thoughtful closure to this topic. There is no one on this (or the other) list who cannot contribute in some way for the betterment of all. Thank you for reminding all of us that who we are is so much more important than what skills or equipment we may or may not posess. The written word is powerful indeed and so easily misused. Thank you for using words wisely! Tom pilgrim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DRB Hays" Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: AMM Requirements] Date: 21 Dec 1999 18:42:36 -0800 are there any AMM members in or around Chico, California ? ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, December 20, 1999 9:20 AM > YEEEHA! Now that's what I call a spirited discussion! > > There are a lot of people that do a lot of research > about a lot of things. They become experts in the > field, and know so much more than the average guy, and > gain such high opinions of themselves that they just > bore the shit out of everyone else who is in the area > of expertise. They suck the joy out of the activity > like a cold breeze will take thge light from a candle! > I too have seen examples of the improper gear > referred to, usually on pilgrims who are still > learning. It is up to the experienced hands to point > things like this out, but I hated to see dog soldiers > inspecting everything brought into camp. The orange > buckskins, filter tip smokes, bic lighters and such > certainly should not be there, but it is up to those > members with experience to show the proper way. > That is how we ALL learned. Show me a man who > makes no mistakes, and I'll show you a man who is too > boring to be around. Dog, G.H.B., Wyoming > > __________________________________________________ Brother, Well put, we all have been there, but for some reason some seem to forget - everyone has to crawl before they walk and then run - remember this. Over the last forty years I have had some of the best garage sales, moving out items that I thought where really great and later found to be the wrong time period, or just wrong - period. I can take comfort in knowing that I told the buyer that was for such and such a period, or not correct if wanting to use it for such and such - be honest, just don't pass it on to a new person. When we stop learning or helping others in this sport, I'll move on. Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Well it's about time Buck, where the heck you been, Dennis Miles and your truly thought you got lost. Agree with you a 100% , all the AMM members I've run across in the last 25 plus years do pretty much as you say, they teach and try and help where they can. Have a great Holiday folks. Concho. ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Happy Holidays [OFF TOPIC] Date: 21 Dec 1999 18:46:21 -0800 On Tue, 21 December 1999, Ronald Schrotter wrote: > Monsieur Funk, > A wonderful tale. Thank you. May all on this list > have a most joyous holiday season, and their families, > extended and otherwise do the same. Dog, Gabe's Hole > Brig. > > __________________________________________________ > __________________________________________________ A little off topic but a great Christmas story for the boys, and one you'll enjoy. Here’s a true story that happen just yesterday in the Littleton, Colorado area, not the usual Columbine thing again. I was reading the local paper this morning and about 7-8 pages front the front was a small article about a Hair Saloon being robbed last night around 6:30 PM. I took a second look at the address, hell that’s the wife’s place she goes to, and we’re going there after work for her to get her hair trimmed. The article didn’t give much detail other than the bad guys where white in their late twenties. When she goes for her hair cuts, trims, etc., I usually sit in the truck and watch the young ladies go in and out of the shop, a pleasing past time and with the dark windows you don’t get the dirty looks. I know "dirty old man". Well tonight I had to go in to hear about what happened last night, the young lady at the counter was more than willing to tell her exciting tale. Here’s what happened: there where about a half dozen gals counting the ones that work there, busy with whatever they do in these places - when two white males wearing sunglasses come into the place. They sit down watch what's going on then pull guns (still sitting) and have everyone line up in front of them, they collect all the money and credit cards, then the good part. These young gentlemen are thinkers, they have the whole group disrobe, putting their clothes on a sheet. They have everyone stand in a group and bring out a digital camera and take a few pictures. They thanks all the ladies, gather up the money, credit cards and the clothes and walk out. The young lady said the first thing they did was lock the door, turn out the lights and hide behind the counter. Finally someone says “call the cops”, but decided to call their spouces first for clothes then call the police. She said after being clothed and the police came, they had decided the insurance would cover everyone’s losts and when questioned gave a very bland description of the holdup men. She said they where worried about the police getting hold of those pictures, more than those guys being caught. She figured they could have walked 10 miles before the cops got there. "Damn it, a day late and dollar short again". Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html _________________________________ Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Texan" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question Date: 21 Dec 1999 20:54:09 -0600 Mr. Summers, I agree with the Captain that your remarks are illuminating and perceptive. I refer to your question "what experience of living in the mountains prepared these men for leaving the mountains and forming a cooperative alliance that carried American history to another level?" Without a doubt, the attributes that MM develop while living in the mountains would be welcome in any organization. However, I respectfully submit that MM are INHERENTLY leaders whether in the mountains or in corporate America. I believe that all MM, from all walks of life and all levels of skills, AMM or no, represent the cream of the crop of the men in America and will be called to leadership positions to "carry American history to another level" in America's difficult years ahead. Mr. Quilter, I second Mr. Robert's thank you for your gracious words and sound perspective. Please bless us again with your thoughts. Texan -----Original Message----- > > >DickSummers@aol.com wrote: > >> What experience of living in the mountains prepared these men for leaving the >> mountains and forming a cooperative alliance that carried American history to >> another level? >> >> Brotherhood? Perhaps. > >Dick, > >I found your remarks illuminating and perceptive. It begs further >investigation and discussion which I do not feel adequate to address. It >does explain why societal gatherings and fraternal groupings of like >minded men is so necessary, so common, quit natural and generally >healthful for the human condition. Thank you for your insight. I >remain.... > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: farseer Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Archives? Date: 21 Dec 1999 20:56:31 -0600 Thanks much!!! I had saved a bunch of stuff on winter camping, and blankets, and hunting pouches etc, and losing them was the worst thing about losing that durn drive. Everything else I could replace. Thanks again. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Ron Chamberlain > Sent: Monday, December 20, 1999 10:33 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Archives? > > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > cstmzd@ida.net > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: farseer > To: MtMan > Date: Monday, December 20, 1999 8:06 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: Archives? > > > >AGGHHH!! My hard drive went under, and I lost a number of posts I'd been > >savin for future reference. Is there an archive someplace? I dimly > >recollect seeing mention of one. Any help would be appreciated. > > > > > >todd > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Happy Holidays [OFF TOPIC] Date: 21 Dec 1999 19:13:57 -0800 Buck, Gotta to tell ya my friend..... I'm a retired "cop"...actually a Deputy Sheriff...Sergeant. Always told my guys....your damned if ya do and damned if ya don't!!! And...."if ya wanted 'love' ya should have been a fireman". Guess your story confirmed that!! Can't really say I enjoyed the "story". MANY times I've found myself tied up in 'other' situations that the caller felt was just as important and could not get to the things that "I" felt really required immediate attention. Call it budget, lack of personnel, call it to many people that had 'problems' that they seemed to require our "IMMEDIATE" attention, whatever!!! There is nothing more frustrating to a dedicated "peace officer" than being needed in another place than where he or she is. No disrespect intended. I feel your frustration....really I do, as I'm sure the local dedicated "cops" do. John Funk ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 1999 6:46 PM > On Tue, 21 December 1999, Ronald Schrotter wrote: > > Monsieur Funk, > > A wonderful tale. Thank you. May all on this list > > have a most joyous holiday season, and their families, > > extended and otherwise do the same. Dog, Gabe's Hole > > Brig. > > > > __________________________________________________ > > __________________________________________________ > > > A little off topic but a great Christmas story for the boys, and one you'll enjoy. > > Here's a true story that happen just yesterday in the Littleton, Colorado area, not the usual Columbine > thing again. > > I was reading the local paper this morning and about 7-8 pages front the front was a small article about a Hair Saloon being robbed last night around 6:30 PM. > > I took a second look at the address, hell that's the wife's place she goes to, and we're going there after work for her to get her hair trimmed. The article didn't give much detail other than the bad guys where white in their late twenties. > > When she goes for her hair cuts, trims, etc., I usually sit in the truck and watch the young ladies go in and out of the shop, a pleasing past time and with the dark windows you don't get the dirty looks. I know "dirty old man". > > Well tonight I had to go in to hear about what happened last night, the young lady at the counter was more than willing to tell her exciting tale. > > Here's what happened: there where about a half dozen gals counting the ones that work there, busy with whatever they do in these places - when two white males wearing sunglasses come into the place. They sit down watch what's going on then pull guns (still sitting) and have everyone line up in front of them, they collect all the money and credit cards, then the good part. > > These young gentlemen are thinkers, they have the whole group disrobe, putting their clothes on a sheet. They have everyone stand in a group and bring out a digital camera and take a few pictures. They thanks all the ladies, gather up the money, credit cards and the clothes and walk out. > > The young lady said the first thing they did was lock the door, turn out the lights and hide behind the counter. Finally someone says "call the cops", but decided to call their spouces first for clothes then call the police. > > She said after being clothed and the police came, they had decided the insurance would cover everyone's losts and when questioned gave a very bland description of the holdup men. > > She said they where worried about the police getting hold of those pictures, more than those guys being caught. > > She figured they could have walked 10 miles before the cops got there. > > "Damn it, a day late and dollar short again". > > > > Later, > Buck Conner > _________________________________ > Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html > Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ > AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html > _________________________________ > Aux Ailments de Pays! > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Happy Holidays Date: 21 Dec 1999 19:18:15 -0800 My thanks to you. It was for the benefit of all....this season. John Funk ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 1999 6:11 PM > Monsieur Funk, > A wonderful tale. Thank you. May all on this list > have a most joyous holiday season, and their families, > extended and otherwise do the same. Dog, Gabe's Hole > Brig. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. > Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: Very Well Spoken! Date: 21 Dec 1999 22:58:52 -0500 (EST) Capt., Concho, Barn: have only been on the list since March 21 of this year, but can tell from the words that speak clearly like sharp iron from your soul that the brothers Concho mentioned (and others unnamed - pierce, kanger, bublitz, kramer, ...) have always been helpful in answering topic questions and just plain sharing-teaching their learnin. just my year end seasons thanks to all. Concho, Barn: do hope you get called into the AMM someday. am reminded of this saying in the Good Book [with an interpretation below it]: "No man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron." [Hebrews 5:4, KJV] No pilgrim JOINETH the AMM Brotherhood, only he that is CALLED of God the Great Spirit Father by an authorized AMM hiveranno? from Michigan Territory ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Lacing leather clothing Date: 21 Dec 1999 10:02:09 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01BF4B9A.72076FC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ronald Schrotter wrote:=20 Finally, on the subject of thread, a lot of time can be saved by tying = sleeves and legs with the leather scraps left from trimming, spaced = several inches apart. Judging from what I have seen in museums it is = authentic and looks good too.=20 Without being confrontational I ask, does this refer to lacing? And is = lacing an acceptable way to assemble period leather clothing? I was of = the understanding that it was not. My last question about commercial = leather being acceptable kicked up a lot of heat and that was not my = intention. I admire the AMM and jus wanted to know.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01BF4B9A.72076FC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ronald Schrotter wrote:

Finally, on the subject of thread, a lot of time can be saved by = tying=20 sleeves and legs with the leather scraps left from trimming, spaced = several=20 inches apart. Judging from what I have seen in museums it is authentic = and looks=20 good too.

Without being confrontational I ask, does this refer to lacing? And = is lacing=20 an acceptable way to assemble period leather clothing? I was of the=20 understanding that it was not. My last question about commercial leather = being=20 acceptable kicked up a lot of heat and that was not my intention. I = admire the=20 AMM and jus wanted to know.

------=_NextPart_000_0039_01BF4B9A.72076FC0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question, thoughts Date: 22 Dec 1999 08:18:51 -0600 -----Original Message----- >I think we're comparing apples and oranges here. Both round and edible, but >totally different. As well bring a prehistoric man here and try to make >comparisons with today's life styles. But your point is well taken. Since you bought it up, why don't we continue with that line of thinking for a moment. I believe it may strike to the heart of the matter I have raised by asking what I did. We aren't so much comparing apples to oranges as we are comparing apples from now to apples from back then. Many people agree that the first people to inhabit and live off the land that the mountain men subsequently explored and mapped lived approx. 13000 years ago and subsisted , as far as we know, primarily by hunting large paleo fauna like mammoths with spears. Some folks speculate, and there is circumstantial evidence, that they first traveled into north America via the Bering strait and Alaska through an ice free corridor that may have existed. Now what is interesting is that it has been accepted by many professionals that these first people traveled over, explored, most certainly mapped, and exploited the resources of,(some even think to the extinction of species), practically the entire continent in , what I consider, to be a very short time frame. Like 200 years. Two hundred years for small bands of individuals to travel over and explore most of the continental U.S. Can any similar comparisons be drawn to later time periods? Like the period from 1800-1850 for example? The scenario is interestingly similar. Small groups of men with vast amounts of unknown territory in front of them. New places to live with more game and possibly easier pickins.The pale hunters may not have been after beaver pelts but to say that they also had an economic incentives ,just as the fur trade provided later individuals, would be a fair statement. The influx of people from the eastern U.S. in the 19th century caused numbers of certain species to decline in exactly the same way many archeologists think the demise of certain paleo animals occurred. The early pioneers were effective hunters. My whole point is this. I can't help but to believe that the very first pioneers and trail breakers, who first explored the regions that the later fur trade encompassed were the same in many respects as the the folks that made the push to explore the same regions during the fur trade. Certain peculiar traits of human nature transcend race and time. The physical and moral qualities of the mountain men that I grew up reading about, and that made them my personal role models, were nothing new. These qualities were nesasary to them having been successful in there endeavors. Yes, I think the "spirit of the mountain man" has been around for a long, long time. Just as it is carried on by certain individuals today. Thankfully. The positive values that these mountain men, pioneers, explorers ,or whatever name you give them, these qualities that were "the most" important factor in the success or the failure of the tasks they chose to undertake, are what needs to be carried on. I believe that some of the present day folks who are carrying on the traditions I have been speaking about come from a wide range of social and economic conditions. I also believe that they don't all participate in living history or that the epitome of carrying on these traditions lie in that act. Maybe I am just trying to reconcile the fact that I don't, or can't, participate in an organization like the AMM, for example. However I don't feel like less of a man for it. It seems to me that a lot of folks kind of compete with each other to see who can dress in the most period correct fashion. Or have the most period correct outfit. Or be the most knowledgeable on period topics from first hand accounts. These are all admirable goals and an interesting way to pass the time. But those three things combined do not a mountain man make. Its more than that. I sincerely hope everyone the best of holidays, northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: It is Happy Holidays Date: 22 Dec 1999 09:28:14 EST Hello the to all on the list. Just wanted to pass on my joy this A.M. Yesturday was the last day of Black Powder Deer season here in western N.Y. I have been hunting with a fine inexpensive cap lock Hawkens style for over 10 years. I use it during shot gun season as well as Black Powder and it has served me well. But as my family and I recreate the French and Indian War and Rev War period of the great fur trade era I have a 50 cal flinter that had not gotten a deer. I decided this year to only use it during Black Powder season to see if I could make it earn its keep. Well yesterday about 3:30 P.M. I was on top of a ridge and 8 deer crossed down way ahead of me. I waited and as luck would have it they came across the ridge in my direction about 75 yards below me. I compete a lot at camps with this gun so I know I can hit at that distance so I let the first three cross thru my only shooting lane and when the next past I pulled the trigger. As I had been out for over 2 hours and the air was moist there was a slight hang fire. But after decending to the deer trail I could clearly see that I had a good arterial hit. Now I have seen a deer that I shoot thru both lungs and the heart run over a 1/3 of a mile so I new I would have a tracking job on my hands before dark. I followed the blood trail for over an hour threw the leaves (most of the snow we had was gone) and at dusk my tri-focal glasses and old eyes lost the trail. So I hiked back to my house and got a bite to eat, drink, flash lights and dry boots I was not going to waste a deer and especially not the first with my flintlock. My 14 year old, just got his trappers license and has just started to hunt squirrels, had never been out deer hunting (not of age in this state). But he volunteered his young eyes and a third flash light to help me. I spent the time walking out to where I had last seen the blood trail telling him how to track by walking slowly to the side of the trail and marking the last blood before moving on so you can retrace and start over if you loose the spot. We walked (bent over) up and down the gulleys and over the streams and with each pace Nathan got better and better at spotting the blood drops in the leaves. And soon he was leading the search with me reminding him to move slow and not over heat (the temperature was in the low teens with a good wind chill factor). I had to laugh as I watched my son follow the drops of blood so intently that he did not even see my flash light on the dead deer 5 feet in front of him as he tracked. I remembered I did that with the vary first deer I ever shot, one more step and I would have tripped over him. Well he and I dragged the deer out to a clear place and field dressed it then he went to get some assistance form a fellow hunter, mountain man, re-inactor and damn good friend, who got dressed in his wooleys and helped us get the biggest doe (we hunt for meat not wall hangings) I have ever shot out of the gulley. That same friend/brother taught my wife and I how to skin and butcher our own deer and we were soon putting that skill to use as I had her hung skined and packaged before Midnight. Working under the beautiful solstice moon. But the reason I am writting this to the list is that on this beautiful Winter Solstice ( first Full Moon/Solstice in 133 years) is to let you all know that I find it wonderful to know that we/I can still learn and teach. I learned that with the flinter I need to pull the trigger a hair earlier so I don't need to track so long. But I also proved to myself that I can and will make meat for my family with the same style of gun my fore fathers did. And my son found his place in the woods last night. Nathan was so proud of his ability to follow that blood trail and help his father. So to everyone on this list, I have learned from everyone of you, and I would hope that as that full moon rises tonight, we all remember that if we truely beleave that the skills we have, and are learning, are important that we all pass them on to as many people as we can. Because as we do we can see ourselves in the eyes of those we teach, as they trip over the deer. And remember also to always be willing to learn as than so you can grow as well. Enjoy the solstice, Christmas, the New Year. I remain Your Humble Servant C.T. Oakes ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lacing leather clothing Date: 22 Dec 1999 07:15:54 -0700 --------------AB9C529E6ADB1EA888F47034 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wynn and Grethen, Lacing (depending on how you describe it) is both approved and frowned upon. Having made three prize winning outfits (2 men and a ladies') using only ties. Small left over pieces on leather cut into what predates fringe, and tied though the leather about half to three quarters of inch a part. But, was probably used more for repairs than complete outifts in the fur trade peroid. Unless it is under survival conditions. When you can turn out a outfit far faster than using real sinew and unless you are close, you will never know. These outfits still in use today and they are quite nice looking. If you are talking about using the leather strips in a long running lace, no not at all. Many outfits were made with the long lacing during the early days of buckskinning and are not used today. mike. Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote: > Ronald Schrotter wrote: > > Finally, on the subject of thread, a lot of time can be saved by tying > sleeves and legs with the leather scraps left from trimming, spaced > several inches apart. Judging from what I have seen in museums it is > authentic and looks good too. > > Without being confrontational I ask, does this refer to lacing? And is > lacing an acceptable way to assemble period leather clothing? I was of > the understanding that it was not. My last question about commercial > leather being acceptable kicked up a lot of heat and that was not my > intention. I admire the AMM and jus wanted to know. --------------AB9C529E6ADB1EA888F47034 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wynn and Grethen,
    Lacing (depending on how you describe it) is both approved and frowned upon. Having made three prize winning outfits (2 men and a ladies') using only ties. Small left over pieces on leather cut into what predates fringe, and tied though the leather about half to three quarters of inch a part. But, was probably used more for repairs than complete outifts in the fur trade peroid. Unless it is under survival conditions. When you can turn out a outfit far faster than using real sinew and unless you are close, you will never know. These outfits still in use today and they are quite nice looking. If you are talking about using the leather strips in a long running lace, no not at all. Many outfits were made with the long lacing during the early days of buckskinning and are not used today.
                                                          mike.

Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote:

  Ronald Schrotter wrote:

Finally, on the subject of thread, a lot of time can be saved by tying sleeves and legs with the leather scraps left from trimming, spaced several inches apart. Judging from what I have seen in museums it is authentic and looks good too.

Without being confrontational I ask, does this refer to lacing? And is lacing an acceptable way to assemble period leather clothing? I was of the understanding that it was not. My last question about commercial leather being acceptable kicked up a lot of heat and that was not my intention. I admire the AMM and jus wanted to know.

  --------------AB9C529E6ADB1EA888F47034-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Very Well Spoken! Date: 21 Dec 1999 23:28:25 -0500 On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 22:58:52 -0500 (EST) JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) writes: > No pilgrim JOINETH the AMM Brotherhood, only he that is CALLED of > God > the Great Spirit Father by an authorized AMM hiveranno? Jon them are the unadulterated real words from the big maker ---lest we forget his presence and his artwork that he created---the maker walk with you in the new year and may you always have shining times past present and future--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to get Web access? Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lacing leather clothing Date: 22 Dec 1999 09:10:59 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BF4C5C.76513940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please don't think that your question was the cause of the recent heat. = Sometimes a thread will lead to some unexpected areas. This phenomon is = common on this list and you should not think that you caused a problem. = Never hold back on a question for fear of where the original question = will lead. I hope your question was answered to your satisfaction. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Wynn & Gretchen Ormond=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 1999 11:02 AM Subject: MtMan-List: Lacing leather clothing Ronald Schrotter wrote:=20 Finally, on the subject of thread, a lot of time can be saved by tying = sleeves and legs with the leather scraps left from trimming, spaced = several inches apart. Judging from what I have seen in museums it is = authentic and looks good too.=20 Without being confrontational I ask, does this refer to lacing? And is = lacing an acceptable way to assemble period leather clothing? I was of = the understanding that it was not. My last question about commercial = leather being acceptable kicked up a lot of heat and that was not my = intention. I admire the AMM and jus wanted to know.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BF4C5C.76513940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Please don't think that your question was the cause of the recent=20 heat.  Sometimes a thread will lead to some unexpected areas.  = This=20 phenomon is common on this list and you should not think that you caused = a=20 problem. Never hold back on a question for fear of where the original = question=20 will lead.  I hope your  question was answered to your=20 satisfaction.
YMOS
Lanney Ratcliff
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Wynn &=20 Gretchen Ormond
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com =
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, = 1999 11:02=20 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: Lacing = leather=20 clothing

Ronald Schrotter wrote:

Finally, on the subject of thread, a lot of time can be saved by = tying=20 sleeves and legs with the leather scraps left from trimming, spaced = several=20 inches apart. Judging from what I have seen in museums it is authentic = and=20 looks good too.

Without being confrontational I ask, does this refer to lacing? And = is=20 lacing an acceptable way to assemble period leather clothing? I was of = the=20 understanding that it was not. My last question about commercial = leather being=20 acceptable kicked up a lot of heat and that was not my intention. I = admire the=20 AMM and jus wanted to know.

------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BF4C5C.76513940-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Justbuglebaby@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: pre Christmas poem Date: 22 Dec 1999 10:16:00 EST So come, good men who toil and tire, Who smoke and sip the kindly cup, Ring round about the tavern fire Ere yet you drink your liquor up; And hear my simple songs of earth, Of youth and truth and living things; Of poverty and proper mirth, Of rags and rich imaginings; Of cock-a-hoop, blue-heavened days, Of hearts elate and eager breath, Of wonder, worship, pity, praise, Of sorrow, sacrifice and death; Of lusting laughter, passion, pain, Of lights that lure and dreams that thrall... And if a golden word I gain, Oh, kindly folks, God save you all! And if you shake your heads in blame... Good friends, God love you all the same. Last stanza Prelude from Ballads of a Bohemian Robert Service ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question, thoughts Date: 22 Dec 1999 08:38:20 -0800 what you say has much merit. Especially that "those three things do not a mountain man make." Amen. -----Original Message----- > >-----Original Message----- >From: Bill Cunningham >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Monday, December 20, 1999 10:51 AM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question > > >>I think we're comparing apples and oranges here. Both round and edible, but >>totally different. As well bring a prehistoric man here and try to make >>comparisons with today's life styles. But your point is well taken. > > >Since you bought it up, why don't we continue with that line of thinking for >a moment. I believe it may strike to the heart of the matter I have raised >by asking what I did. We aren't so much comparing apples to oranges as we >are comparing apples from now to apples from back then. >Many people agree that the first people to inhabit and live off the land >that the mountain men subsequently explored and mapped lived approx. 13000 >years ago and subsisted , as far as we know, primarily by hunting large >paleo fauna like mammoths with spears. Some folks speculate, and there is >circumstantial evidence, that they first traveled into north America via the >Bering strait and Alaska through an ice free corridor that may have existed. >Now what is interesting is that it has been accepted by many professionals >that these first people traveled over, explored, most certainly mapped, and >exploited the resources of,(some even think to the extinction of species), >practically the entire continent in , what I consider, to be a very short >time frame. >Like 200 years. Two hundred years for small bands of individuals to travel >over and explore most of the continental U.S. >Can any similar comparisons be drawn to later time periods? Like the period >from 1800-1850 for example? The scenario is interestingly similar. Small >groups of men with vast amounts of unknown territory in front of them. New >places to live with more game and possibly easier pickins.The pale hunters >may not have been after beaver pelts but to say that they also had an >economic incentives ,just as the fur trade provided later individuals, would >be a fair statement. >The influx of people from the eastern U.S. in the 19th century caused >numbers of certain species to decline in exactly the same way many >archeologists think the demise of certain paleo animals occurred. The early >pioneers were effective hunters. >My whole point is this. I can't help but to believe that the very first >pioneers and trail breakers, who first explored the regions that the later >fur trade encompassed were the same in many respects as the the folks that >made the push to explore the same regions during the fur trade. >Certain peculiar traits of human nature transcend race and time. The >physical and moral qualities of the mountain men that I grew up reading >about, and that made them my personal role models, were nothing new. These >qualities were nesasary to them having been successful in there endeavors. >Yes, I think the "spirit of the mountain man" has been around for a long, >long time. >Just as it is carried on by certain individuals today. Thankfully. >The positive values that these mountain men, pioneers, explorers ,or >whatever name you give them, these qualities that were "the most" important >factor in the success or the failure of the tasks they chose to undertake, >are what needs to be carried on. >I believe that some of the present day folks who are carrying on the >traditions I have been speaking about come from a wide range of social and >economic conditions. I also believe that they don't all participate in >living history or that the epitome of carrying on these traditions lie in >that act. Maybe I am just trying to reconcile the fact that I don't, or >can't, participate in an organization like the AMM, for example. However I >don't feel like less of a man for it. >It seems to me that a lot of folks kind of compete with each other to see >who can dress in the most period correct fashion. Or have the most period >correct outfit. >Or be the most knowledgeable on period topics from first hand accounts. >These are all admirable goals and an interesting way to pass the time. >But those three things combined do not a mountain man make. Its more than >that. > >I sincerely hope everyone the best of holidays, >northwoods > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ad.miller@mindspring.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: It is Happy Holidays Date: 22 Dec 1999 10:57:37 -0500 Congrats on makin Meat *grins* I envy you your time with your son. Due to lawsuite over my mothers will, etc... I no longer claim to have a son. It sounds like you are doing a great job of raising him and teaching the lad. Well done :) Ad Miller ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Huss931@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question Date: 22 Dec 1999 12:23:10 EST What an interesting question-- how would the mountain men act today. In my research I found that the men like Bridger, Smith, Campbell, Sublette, and others all shared many common traits: They loved to see new things and new places; They wanted to be free-- without restrictions by convention or government; They loved excitement; They had a well developed sense of honor; They could be trusted with a handshake-- contracts were seldom needed; They were loyal; They were self-sustaining as much as possible; They were symbiotic with nature; They believed in God-- as they understood God to be; They were restless; They had self-confidence; They were proud; They were helpful to newcomers, but, "did not tolerate fools" very well; They were patriotic and interested in politics (many discussions around the Campbell, Sublette, Bridger campfires centered on Andrew Jackson, George Washington, and Henry Clay's new ideas about the West); They worked hard and played hard; They were competitive; They had all the failings that all humans have. With these credentials, they could be businessmen today (I certainly would do business with them!); they could be entrepreneurs in many ways. They are not likely to work a nine-to-five job, however. Steve Huss (Huss931@aol.com) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Justbuglebaby@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question Date: 22 Dec 1999 12:38:40 EST Steve, I think your post pretty well sums up the nature of the mountain man. Wanting to see what was over the next hill or in the next valley is a big one. Thanks and Happy Holidaze. W H Fuller ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question Date: 22 Dec 1999 16:51:29 -0600 I agree totally that they shared many of these traits. And it's these traits that will forever be carried on by certain individuals. For the benefit of us all. Happy holidays! northwoods -----Original Message----- >What an interesting question-- how would the mountain men act today. In my >research I found that the men like Bridger, Smith, Campbell, Sublette, and >others all shared many common traits: > They loved to see new things and new places; > They wanted to be free-- without restrictions by convention or government; > They loved excitement; > They had a well developed sense of honor; > They could be trusted with a handshake-- contracts were seldom needed; > They were loyal; > They were self-sustaining as much as possible; > They were symbiotic with nature; > They believed in God-- as they understood God to be; > They were restless; > They had self-confidence; > They were proud; > They were helpful to newcomers, but, "did not tolerate fools" very well; > They were patriotic and interested in politics (many discussions around >the Campbell, Sublette, Bridger campfires centered on Andrew Jackson, George >Washington, and Henry Clay's new ideas about the West); > They worked hard and played hard; > They were competitive; > They had all the failings that all humans have. > > With these credentials, they could be businessmen today (I certainly >would do business with them!); they could be entrepreneurs in many ways. >They are not likely to work a nine-to-five job, however. > > Steve Huss (Huss931@aol.com) > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question Date: 22 Dec 1999 16:06:37 -0700 Reply to: Re: MtMan-List: question Well said. Damn well said. DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants Huss931 wrote: >What an interesting question-- how would the mountain men act today. In = my = >research I found that the men like Bridger, Smith, Campbell, Sublette, = and = >others all shared many common traits: = > They loved to see new things and new places; > They wanted to be free-- without restrictions by convention or = government; > They loved excitement; > They had a well developed sense of honor; > They could be trusted with a handshake-- contracts were seldom needed;= > They were loyal; > They were self-sustaining as much as possible; > They were symbiotic with nature; > They believed in God-- as they understood God to be; > They were restless; > They had self-confidence; > They were proud; > They were helpful to newcomers, but, "did not tolerate fools" very = well; > They were patriotic and interested in politics (many discussions = around = >the Campbell, Sublette, Bridger campfires centered on Andrew Jackson, = George = >Washington, and Henry Clay's new ideas about the West); > They worked hard and played hard; > They were competitive; > They had all the failings that all humans have. > > With these credentials, they could be businessmen today (I certainly = >would do business with them!); they could be entrepreneurs in many ways. = >They are not likely to work a nine-to-five job, however. = > = > Steve Huss (Huss931@aol.com) > = > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > > Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com with = ESMTP > (SMTPD32-5.01) id A935BAA00E6; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:24:05 -0600 > Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #2) > id 120pTt-0003Uu-00 > for hist_text-gooutt@lists.xmission.com; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:23:21 -= 0700 > Received: from [205.188.157.41] (helo=3Dimo-d09.mx.aol.com) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) > id 120pTq-0003Up-00 > for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:23:19 -0700 > Received: from Huss931@aol.com > by imo-d09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id f.0.58ae5039 (6621) > for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 12:23:10 -0500 (= EST) > From: Huss931@aol.com > Message-ID: <0.58ae5039.259262fe@aol.com> > Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 12:23:10 EST > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 > Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Precedence: bulk > Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > X-RCPT-TO: > X-UIDL: 4406 > Status: U > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question Date: 22 Dec 1999 18:47:49 EST > I agree totally that they shared many of these traits. > And it's these traits that will forever be carried on by certain > individuals. For the benefit of us all. To better clarify......these are two quotes from this month's American Hunter. "The chase is among the best of all national pastimes; it cultivates that vigorous manliness for the lack of which in a nation, as in an individual, the possession of no other qualities can possibly atone." Theodore Roosevelt, 1893 "The real problem is that we have another culture in our country that I think has gotten confused about its objectives....[the] huge hunting and sport shooting culture." Bill Clinton, 1999 The "vigor" that was inbred into our forefathers is disappearing from today's society. Only through our pursuits do we maintain and pass on these attributes to our own sons and daughters. People of hard working stock, who can and do endure deprivation, maintain these things today.....ranchers, farmers, cowboys, the Reservation raised Indian, the ghetto raised black, the American soldier, and among others, the select few who dedicate their lives and energy to learn and experience that which is required to survive. This "vigor" is being lost to the Fat Cat Society we are evolving into. I think we are losing our toughness as a nation. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question Date: 22 Dec 1999 19:28:39 -0500 I agree with you 100 percent I asked my wife if she was worried about y2k and you know what she said? "worry, why worry you can start a fire with rocks and a file, you spend all your time in the woods, you hunt and skin your critters, you make all your rendezvous clothing, you can purify water and you spent 7 years in the USMC, I'm not worried about anything". She then told me that all the neighbors want to come over if there is any problems. Yes America is getting very soft. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 6:47 PM > > I agree totally that they shared many of these traits. > > And it's these traits that will forever be carried on by certain > > individuals. For the benefit of us all. > > To better clarify......these are two quotes from this month's American Hunter. > > "The chase is among the best of all national pastimes; it cultivates that > vigorous manliness for the lack of which in a nation, as in an individual, > the possession of no other qualities can possibly atone." Theodore > Roosevelt, 1893 > > "The real problem is that we have another culture in our country that I think > has gotten confused about its objectives....[the] huge hunting and sport > shooting culture." > Bill Clinton, 1999 > > The "vigor" that was inbred into our forefathers is disappearing from today's > society. Only through our pursuits do we maintain and pass on these > attributes to our own sons and daughters. People of hard working stock, who > can and do endure deprivation, maintain these things today.....ranchers, > farmers, cowboys, the Reservation raised Indian, the ghetto raised black, the > American soldier, and among others, the select few who dedicate their lives > and energy to learn and experience that which is required to survive. This > "vigor" is being lost to the Fat Cat Society we are evolving into. I think > we are losing our toughness as a nation. > > Dave Kanger > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question Date: 22 Dec 1999 19:02:51 -0600 -----Original Message----- >The "vigor" that was inbred into our forefathers is disappearing from today's >society. Only through our pursuits do we maintain and pass on these >attributes to our own sons and daughters. People of hard working stock, who >can and do endure deprivation, maintain these things today.....ranchers, >farmers, cowboys, the Reservation raised Indian, the ghetto raised black, the >American soldier, and among others, the select few who dedicate their lives >and energy to learn and experience that which is required to survive. This >"vigor" is being lost to the Fat Cat Society we are evolving into. I think >we are losing our toughness as a nation. > >Dave Kanger I'll second that observation... Your comparison of Roosevelts quote and Clintons more recent statement is a good example of the sad state of the powers that would control us if they were able. And I agree that the "vigor" you mentioned is not as prevalent as it once was. I think that is to be expected as a result of the industrialization of this country. As much as I ponder over what direction further developments in this country may take us, I still have no idea what the future has in store. Whatever happens, I do know that I will sincerely try to do my part by attempting to follow and live by the traits that were earlier mentioned. Happy holidays to everyone! northwoods >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question Date: 22 Dec 1999 20:17:39 -0500 >"The real problem is that we have another culture in our country that I think >has gotten confused about its objectives....[the] huge hunting and sport >shooting culture." >Bill Clinton, 1999 You had my attention until the last name... I thought you were talking about men... not traitors, etc... Ad Miller ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DickSummers@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question Date: 22 Dec 1999 23:22:29 EST My Father raised me that the way a man lived up to his family name, and a man's word were the two most important things in his life. I visited his grave last week in Texas. All the things he worked for he didn't take with him -- but the things he stood for live on in the children he raised. The things mountaineers stood for live on in the pages of printed books in our libraries, but I suggest, they live on more completely in the way we live our lives -- and in the way we raise our children. Young men and women do not become heroes and American patiots watching television, they become heroes by listening to the stories we share with them about the lives of American patiots. Merry Christmas. Dick Summers ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question Date: 22 Dec 1999 21:50:39 -0800 Thank you for that Frank. I get the same kind of response here. And thank you all for the messages that have shown up today: messages from Capt. Lahti, Dave Kanger, Buck Conner, Dick Summers, Ad Miller, and Northwoods especially. You made my evening, restored my desire to stay hooked up to the list, and reminded me that there are some patriots left - men I can identify with. Thank you all. Bill C -----Original Message----- >I agree with you 100 percent > >I asked my wife if she was worried about y2k and you know what she said? >"worry, why worry you can start a fire with rocks and a file, you spend all >your time in the woods, you hunt and skin your critters, you make all your >rendezvous clothing, you can purify water and you spent 7 years in the USMC, >I'm not worried about anything". She then told me that all the neighbors >want to come over if there is any problems. > >Yes America is getting very soft. > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 6:47 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question > > >> > I agree totally that they shared many of these traits. >> > And it's these traits that will forever be carried on by certain >> > individuals. For the benefit of us all. >> >> To better clarify......these are two quotes from this month's American >Hunter. >> >> "The chase is among the best of all national pastimes; it cultivates that >> vigorous manliness for the lack of which in a nation, as in an individual, >> the possession of no other qualities can possibly atone." Theodore >> Roosevelt, 1893 >> >> "The real problem is that we have another culture in our country that I >think >> has gotten confused about its objectives....[the] huge hunting and sport >> shooting culture." >> Bill Clinton, 1999 >> >> The "vigor" that was inbred into our forefathers is disappearing from >today's >> society. Only through our pursuits do we maintain and pass on these >> attributes to our own sons and daughters. People of hard working stock, >who >> can and do endure deprivation, maintain these things today.....ranchers, >> farmers, cowboys, the Reservation raised Indian, the ghetto raised black, >the >> American soldier, and among others, the select few who dedicate their >lives >> and energy to learn and experience that which is required to survive. >This >> "vigor" is being lost to the Fat Cat Society we are evolving into. I >think >> we are losing our toughness as a nation. >> >> Dave Kanger >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne & Terri" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: It is Happy Holidays Date: 23 Dec 1999 07:58:08 -0800 to CT Oakes, Congrates on the kill. 3strings ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne & Terri" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question Date: 23 Dec 1999 08:23:41 -0800 Old Fox, I was not in the USMC, but did do 20 years in the USN, I see in my neighbors the same thing that your wife sees in hers. When something goes amiss, they seem to lean on us to get them together and lead them though the mess. Even though I do have some fine neighbors around me, at times I do wonder where their minds are at and if the common since that god has given them gone away. I believe that is one of the reasons that I belong to the AMM, because it is full of leaders, men that can come together to take the lead when the next man can't and not look on him a failure. We all know that at one time or another he will be called on to take to point, to be the bosoloper for the camp. I am rambling. May ye have a good Christmas. 3-strings ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne & Terri" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question Date: 23 Dec 1999 08:33:48 -0800 yes I agree. to bad oh bill Clinton don't get it. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronald Schrotter Subject: MtMan-List: Lacing Leather Date: 23 Dec 1999 10:24:27 -0800 (PST) To W.and G. Ormond, I was not referring to long-lacing leather clothing. On the sleeves and trouser legs I put holes in the front and back pieces then run a piece of lacing 6-8 inches long through both faces and knot it. I space them from 4-6 inches apart for the length of the garment, then fringe the overlap. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronald Schrotter Subject: MtMan-List: Howdy Bill C. Date: 23 Dec 1999 10:27:34 -0800 (PST) It is cold and windy as usual up here in Wyoming, Bill, as you probably suspected. I have been here since our talk at Bridger. Where you been? Hope your Holiday is good, and may your memories of the past serve you in the future. Dog, G.H.B. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tetontodd@juno.com Subject: MtMan-List: Pemmican Recipe Request Date: 23 Dec 1999 12:30:03 -0700 Brothers I think we may have talked about this before. If we did, I lost any info I might have saved. I'm looking for a good pemmican recipe. I have a few pounds of tough old buffalo bull in the freezer and some red raspberries I picked last summer. Wes Housler told me he had a good recipe, but I didn't get it from him before he rode out of Rendezvous. I do recall that he didn't use any berries in hs concoction. Any ideas will be appreciated. How bout you Mike Moore? You always seem to have some tasty treats? While I'm writing let me wish all you fine fellows a most Merry Chrismas and a Happy New Century!!! Happy Trails! "Teton" Todd D. Glover Poison River Party Pilgrim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Justin Hall Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Pemmican Recipe Request Date: 23 Dec 1999 13:01:03 -0700 -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, December 23, 1999 12:30 PM Brothers Well hello teton. missed seeing you at the village last weekend how are things going? I have been busy making projects and tanning a few hides. I just got the new buskining book#8 I have really enjoyed it well hope you have a Merry Christmas Justin Hall ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Glenn Darilek" Subject: MtMan-List: question Date: 23 Dec 1999 14:46:44 -0000 Huss931@aol.com wrote about how would the mountain men would act today. He listed many admirable traits, but the following might merit some (unheated and calm) discussion: > They could be trusted with a handshake-- contracts were seldom needed; I believe they could be trusted, but there are many fur trading contracts that survive today. Indeed many traders were involved in lawsuits back in St. Louis. > They were symbiotic with nature; Not by today's standards. They practically eradicated the beaver, and enjoyed hunting for killing sake. Offered in the spirit of constructive criticism Glenn Darilek Iron Burner ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pemmican Recipe Request Date: 23 Dec 1999 13:47:22 -0700 Todd, Always willing to help you, but you need to know that I consider pemmican as survival food. Good in a pinch, but just too much other things better tasting to eat! I think every one has their own slant on making pemmican. I tend to stay away from it. But as you want some recipes for it- here goes: from Sam Arnold's book "Eating up the Santa Fe Trail" page 48, "At the time of the Santa Fe trail, it was called the" iron ration" of an indian warrior. Mountain men and Indians alike enjoyed the combination of chokeberries mixed with well pounded jerky and nearly equal amounts of rendered tallow fat (the puriest form surrounds an animals kidneys). Pemmican was normally formed by hand into small walnut sized balls and could be stored individually. It could also be forced into am empty bladder, where it would keep for lone peroids." from the "complete book of outdoor cookery" (notice it is under survival foods! ha ha!) 2 pounds of dried venison or any other meat, 1 cup raisins, one tbsp honey and 2 tbsp chunk style peanut butter. Grind dried meat fine, pulp raisins and combine. store in plastic pouch. should keep for eight months to year without refridgation. page 211 ( for a modern style.) The american hertiage cookbook page 51, "the making of pemmican was an art, the foundation of which was butchering. I have seen meat jerkers ( a poineer recalled) who could cut a whole hind quarter into one big sheet of meat. Buffalo served as the principal ingredient of pemmican. It was cut into strips about a inch thick, then dried. and pounded fine. sometimes calle d"beat meat" at this stage, the pounded jerky always was mixed with fat and as often as possible, with pulverized berries, then packed in skin bags. The best pemmican according to David Thompson ( the great Nor'westerner) was a mixture of fifty pounds of beat meat, and twenty each of two kinds of fat, plus a goodly quanlity of maple sugar or dried berries "as sweet as the best currants". Todd, hope this makes your mouth drule and say yummm yumm! IF you do want a nice recipe for this time of the year, try this one: (from Bent's fort christmas recipes book) Let me know if you or any one would like a copy of this small pamplet, some good recipes in it. Dark Gingerbread: 1 1/3 cups flour/1 teaspoon baking powder/ 2 teaspoons ginger/ 1 teaspoon cinnamon/ 1/2 teaspoon powdered cloves/ 1/2 teaspoon salt/ 4 tblsp unsalted butter/1/4 cup brown sugar (packed) 1 egg/ 1/2 cup boiling water/ 1/2 cup dark molasses/ 1/2 teaspoon baking soda mix flour baking soda, spices salt and set aside. cream shortening with sugar until light and fluffy; add egg and beat ; combine boiling water and molasses, stir in soda until dissolved and add to batter. resift flour mixture and add gradually, stirring well between additions. pour into well buttered 8 inch loaf pan and bake 20 -30 minutes at 350. Can sprinkle with confectioners sugar or top with whipped cream. Good stuff! Merry Christmas, Todd, say hi to all for me. mike. tetontodd@juno.com wrote: > Brothers > > I think we may have talked about this before. If we did, I lost any info > I might have saved. > I'm looking for a good pemmican recipe. I have a few pounds of tough old > buffalo bull in the freezer and some red raspberries I picked last > summer. Wes Housler told me he had a good recipe, but I didn't get it > from him before he rode out of Rendezvous. I do recall that he didn't use > any berries in hs concoction. > > Any ideas will be appreciated. How bout you Mike Moore? You always seem > to have some tasty treats? > > While I'm writing let me wish all you fine fellows a most Merry Chrismas > and a Happy New Century!!! > > Happy Trails! > > "Teton" Todd D. Glover > Poison River Party Pilgrim > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MedicineWolfe@webtv.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pemmican Recipe Request Date: 23 Dec 1999 18:43:26 -0500 (EST) Ho the list! I generally just "lurk about" on the list, (gathering much information & wisdom) however I came across a nice recipe for pemmican (Blackfeet in origin) in a primitive living book the name of which escapes me so I thought I'd post it!!! Happy Holidays and Enjoy!!! Michael Anthony Wolfe, Esq. Recipe for Pemmican: 5lbs. lean meat 1lb.back fat Blueberriesand Raspberries to taste. (I like a little Maple or Sugar Pine syrup to!) Bones for Marrow 4 Peppermint leaves Dry the meat till its bone dry and pound into a fine powder. Heat the bones in water in a heavy skillet to melt the marrow. Skim the marrow and save. Pit and crush the berries. Spread the powdered meat in a 2"layer in a cake tin. Cover w/ the marrow,fat, crushed berries etc.. Mix together,roll into balls and store in a tight container. http://community.webtv.net/MedicineWolfe/TheBuckskinnersCabin ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Huss931@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question Date: 23 Dec 1999 21:14:43 EST Dear Glenn, Thanks for the continuing discussion of mountain man traits. You are correct about legal suits in St. Louis. Robert Campbell (of Sublette and Campbell and the Rocky Mountain Fur Co.) did participate in many suits. However, most of his suits dealt with those who tried to beat him out of something. He never sued a fellow mountain man. As for contracts-- yes they did make contracts over major deals like the sale by Ashley of the Rocky Mountain Fur Co. to other mountain men. At the same time, Sublette and Campbell risked their lives for years going back and forth from St. Louis to the Rockies on nothing but a handshake deal to buy goods from them the next year at the Rendezvous. As for the over harvesting of the Beaver (and the buffalo!), you again are correct. There was an over-harvesting of these animals. Again, the real damage on the buffalo came from hunters for the railroad and, later, "sport" hunters who shot from the windows and cow-catchers of railroads. The beaver was over harvested by the mountain men. Not to make excuses for this activity, in my research I did find Campbell and others very concerned about this and they often wondered if this was happening. Luckily, silk came in for hats, and beaver became pretty well passe. You are also right when you suggest that their actions could be judged harshly by today's standards. I have found that it is often easy to judge the past from the comfort and knowledge of the present. When I suggested a symbiosis, I really meant that the mountain man lived in harmony as possible in their historic time. No mountain man would have willingly destroyed the animal life upon which he depended. The information I have seen through reading over a thousand letters from these men seems to indicate that they believed that the supply was probably unlimited. This belief in plenty was pretty pervasive in the U.S. in many fields of endeavor. Southern planters believed that they could use up the land and then move on. Plains farmers believed that they could plant over and over and over. Riverboat men denuded the banks of the Missouri River without giving it a thought. The level of scientific understanding just was not there in the national knowledge base. I don't want to mythologize the mountain man-- that is too easy to do. I just think that the basic values are (or can be) important to us today. We are really in need of heroes. Men like Jim Bridger, Jed Smith, Robert Campbell, William Sublette, David Jackson, and maybe even Jim Beckwourth, were just big enough to serve as persons to look up to and learn from. And, it is okay to look up to them and at the same time understand that they were not gods, not giants, but, maybe just a little bigger than life. At least, I like to think so. Thanks again for your comments. It is really important to look at all ideas critically. You do a service to us all-- you make us think. As I teach American History to college freshmen, I know that sometimes that is a real trick! Steve (huss931@aol.com) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: MtMan-List: exploring New Mexico Date: 23 Dec 1999 20:37:13 -0600 Week before last I found myself in the situation of having to travel to Albuquerque, N.M. where for 4 days I had nothing better to do but keep out of trouble. First thing I did upon arrival was to rent a SUV and go to a local bookstore where I purchased a copy of a DeLorme atlas and gazeteer of New Mexico. That evening in my motel room I got a chance to look it over, (while enjoying a carryout meal of assorted mexican food with extra green chiles!), and made a game plan. The first day I headed north up towards Santa Fe. Spent some time in town and got a chance to see the old town, in particular the old Spanish buildings including the palace of the governors. The day I was there some local native Americans had a winter market where they had many items for sale in the old square. I purchased a few things from some interesting looking folks and then headed back south, but I took the long way back to the east of the Sandia Mountains. Very pretty country. The next day I headed South down to Las Cruces. I headed into the back country around Truth or Consequences because there was a large reservoir on the Rio Grande that I thought would be an interesting place to explore. Took about a 3 hour walk after I reached a spot which was as far as I could go with the chevy tahoe. I found some very interesting geological formations wich had been washed out by a high water period. They were like thousands of golf ball sized balls stuk together and made out of stone. This was near the "trinity site" where the first atomic explosion occurred on the White Sands missile range. Being born and raised in WI this country seems very alien to me. But very interesting. I once poked around in a pack rats nest trying to get a closer look and found a shed skin from a snake which must have measured 6' or so feet long. Important lesson learned: do not poke around in pack rats nests and watch out for big snakes. Actually I think it was to cold for them to be active, but not being familiar with these sort of things I tried to be better safe that sorry. The next day I headed West and went to the El Morro national monument. I think this was the highlight of the trip for me. Hundreds of signatures carved into a sandstone rock outcropping that was near a reliable source of water. The oldest dating back to 1609. On the top of the mesa there was a partially excavated Zuni puelbo that had an estimated 875 rooms. The vista when standing on top of the highest point near the pueblo was spectacular. I must have stood there for 30 minutes surveying the surrounding lanscape. Funny thing was I swear I had been there before. The final day I hit all of the local used bookstores in Albuquerque and I found two notable items. The first was the origanal report written by Jackson W. Moore entitled The Archeology of Bent's Old Fort. This is the original typed report with all of the original photos taped in of the archeological investigations that were done in 1967. This information was later published into a book entitled The Archeology of Bent's Old Fort. It has quite a bit of info that is not contained in the book and the assortment of photos of items that had been excavated are very interesting. The other item was a book entitled Cities of Gold by a fella named Douglas Preston. It chronicles his journey on horseback to retrace the trail taken by Coronado and his army across 1000 miles of desert and mountains. I am 3 days into it and have to say it is a great book. Anyone interested in the history of this region or adventure in general would love this book. All in all it was an interesting diversion from my present situation which requires me to work out of doors every day, and the temperature has been quite cold lately. It was -10 this morning and calm, but I swear as I get older -10 gets to feel colder and colder. Happy holidays to everyone! northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: MtMan-List: Christmas Greetings Date: 23 Dec 1999 19:01:07 -0800 As I prepare to leave the office for a holiday break, I am minded of the old quotation about returning to the prairie, the streams, the woods, the game, and the company of good honest men and women. May all of you who have gathered around this phosphorous fire enjoy a great Christmas and a prosperous New Year. Pat Quilter. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pemmican Recipe Request Date: 23 Dec 1999 19:15:39 -0800 Here's what we have used for years, original recipe was written in 1830's, passed down before then and later recorded, modified for modern process in the 1930's. __________________________________________________________ Lenape Pemmican (makes 1 1/2 lbs) (5) oz. of chipped beef, (1) 6 1/2 oz. of roasted peanuts, (1) cup of seedless raisins, (1) 8 oz. bar of beef suet, make a quick trail lunch / high energy. Dry beef on a cookie sheet for 20 minutes @ 140 degree oven, chop nuts and raisins up into small pieces, melt suet in a large skillet - low heat. Combine dry ingredients in a mixing bowl (beef cut in 1/4” shreds), add melted suet - mix thoroughly. Spread mixture in half inch layer in shallow pan, refrigerate until the layer is hard and then slice into squares. Wrapped in foil, bars stay clean and fresh, will keep for a year in freezer. This was rewritten in the 1930’s for use in a hunting camp in Pennsylvania, the original 1840’s recipe has been lost in the passage of time. L.N.Conner,Jr.,Milroy,Pa.,1937 __________________________________________ Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html _________________________________ Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: MtMan-List: HAPPY HOLIDAYS Date: 24 Dec 1999 08:27:44 -0500 From our home to yours, regardless of your religous beliefs, Mouse and I want to wish all of you, the HAPPIEST OF HOLIDAYS, and a safe and wonderful New Year. Tomorrow morning, may you all find your stockings, hung so carefully by the fire, be filled with all of the BP possibles you ever wanted :) (Notice I did not say NEED here... *grins* ) Addison and Vicki Miller aka SeanBear and Lil Mouse ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: exploring New Mexico Date: 24 Dec 1999 07:54:14 -0700 It's always a nice thing to hear when someone enjoys a New Mexico experience -- I grew up in the southeastern part of the state (Hobbs) and even though I choose to stay in Colorado, I still love discovering interesting NM spots. The description of your journey took me back to some nice memories of my own. And, come February, I'll be in Las Vegas, Taos and Santa Fe with a group of nice folks. Can't wait!!! Denise northwoods wrote: > Week before last I found myself in the situation of having to travel to > Albuquerque, N.M. where for 4 days I had nothing better to do but keep out > of trouble. First thing I did upon arrival was to rent a SUV and go to a > local bookstore where I purchased a copy of a DeLorme atlas and gazeteer of > New Mexico. That evening in my motel room I got a chance to look it over, > (while enjoying a carryout meal of assorted mexican food with extra green > chiles!), and made a game plan. > The first day I headed north up towards Santa Fe. Spent some time in town > and got a chance to see the old town, in particular the old Spanish > buildings including the palace of the governors. The day I was there some > local native Americans had a winter market where they had many items for > sale in the old square. I purchased a few things from some interesting > looking folks and then headed back south, but I took the long way back to > the east of the Sandia Mountains. Very pretty country. > The next day I headed South down to Las Cruces. I headed into the back > country around Truth or Consequences because there was a large reservoir on > the Rio Grande that I thought would be an interesting place to explore. Took > about a 3 hour walk after I reached a spot which was as far as I could go > with the chevy tahoe. I found some very interesting geological formations > wich had been washed out by a high water period. They were like thousands of > golf ball sized balls stuk together and made out of stone. This was near the > "trinity site" where the first atomic explosion occurred on the White Sands > missile range. Being born and raised in WI this country seems very alien to > me. But very interesting. I once poked around in a pack rats nest trying to > get a closer look and found a shed skin from a snake which must have > measured 6' or so feet long. Important lesson learned: do not poke around in > pack rats nests and watch out for big snakes. Actually I think it was to > cold for them to be active, but not being familiar with these sort of things > I tried to be better safe that sorry. > The next day I headed West and went to the El Morro national monument. I > think this was the highlight of the trip for me. Hundreds of signatures > carved into a sandstone rock outcropping that was near a reliable source of > water. The oldest dating back to 1609. On the top of the mesa there was a > partially excavated Zuni puelbo that had an estimated 875 rooms. The vista > when standing on top of the highest point near the pueblo was spectacular. I > must have stood there for 30 minutes surveying the surrounding lanscape. > Funny thing was I swear I had been there before. > The final day I hit all of the local used bookstores in Albuquerque and I > found two notable items. The first was the origanal report written by > Jackson W. Moore entitled The Archeology of Bent's Old Fort. This is the > original typed report with all of the original photos taped in of the > archeological investigations that were done in 1967. This information was > later published into a book entitled The Archeology of Bent's Old Fort. It > has quite a bit of info that is not contained in the book and the assortment > of photos of items that had been excavated are very interesting. The other > item was a book entitled Cities of Gold by a fella named Douglas Preston. It > chronicles his journey on horseback to retrace the trail taken by Coronado > and his army across 1000 miles of desert and mountains. I am 3 days into it > and have to say it is a great book. Anyone interested in the history of this > region or adventure in general would love this book. > All in all it was an interesting diversion from my present situation which > requires me to work out of doors every day, and the temperature has been > quite cold lately. It was -10 this morning and calm, but I swear as I get > older -10 gets to feel colder and colder. > > Happy holidays to everyone! > northwoods > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Dearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pemmican Recipe Request Date: 24 Dec 1999 17:48:27 GMT Lenape Pemmican (makes 1 1/2 lbs) > >Combine dry ingredients in a mixing bowl (beef cut in 1/4” shreds), add >melted suet - mix thoroughly. Spread mixture in half inch layer in shallow >pan, refrigerate until the layer is hard and then slice into squares. > > Wrapped in foil, bars stay clean and fresh, will keep for a year >in >freezer. It's my impression that pemmican was a cold weather survival food, and not used in the southern regions of this country. It's also my impression that improperly made pemmican can be really bad stuff to eat, but once in a while someone will make some good tasting pemmican. Notice I said these are merely my impressions. I have never made or eaten pemmican. Ain't been that hungry yet. ;-) J.D. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: exploring New Mexico Date: 24 Dec 1999 12:23:45 -0500 Northwoods--- the next time you plan to go out let me know offline---I might give you some neet points of interest in the area---been in the area climbing a bunch of ruins---neat places--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: MtMan-List: Christmas Eve Date: 24 Dec 1999 16:42:36 -0800 'Tis the night before Christmas and all through our house, not a creature is stirring not even the mouse, not even those pesky squirrels! Thank you all for the gift of your knowledge and friendship this past year. I am blessed. Merry Christmas and a Happy and prosperous New Year. God Bless Us, Every One! I remain...... Your most humble and obedient servant Captain Roger Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: exploring New Mexico Date: 24 Dec 1999 20:25:54 -0600 Hawk, The southwest sure does have a lot of neat places. I plan on going back but don't know when. I will take you up on your offer to suggest some places to explore. Thanks... This year I was really blessed. I got to see the Rockys from the Canadian border all the way down to El Morro National monument which is on the continental divide almost to the Mexican border. The diversity and the beauty of the natural wonders of this country never cease to amaze me. When I get down to the southwest agin I would like to take at least a couple weeks and get into the back country. Unfortunately it's the one part of the country where I don't feel like I really know enough to just set out on some major exploring. Not by my lonesome anyway. Happy holidays! northwoods -----Original Message----- >Northwoods--- >the next time you plan to go out let me know offline---I might give you >some neet points of interest in the area---been in the area climbing a >bunch of ruins---neat places--- > > "HAWK" >Michael Pierce >854 Glenfield Dr. >Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 >e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com > >________________________________________________________________ >YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! >Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! >Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: michael pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: exploring New Mexico Date: 25 Dec 1999 10:31:41 EST northwoods: a neet place to stay in new mexico is north od albequerky about a hr drive---called Ohi Calentie (MIS-Spelled) one of geronimo northern hideouts--has hot water springs--camping area and a hotel---the restrant in the hotel is vegitarian---so will have to go up to town for meat as we do---good mexican food in the village in little hole in the wall places---also about 45 min north of albequirke is a large flee market---lots of neet stuff if you like history and the southwest---lots of silver stuff so take lots of money---good pots---(indian)---if you go to the grand canyon---my niece is the back country ranger takes her 8 hrs to walk to work and then she stays 7 days there---if anyone in the canyon has problems she's the one that goes to get them--- west of tres podras is a neet place to camp ---and awsome elk hunting---if you are going to be in arazona can also give you several places where there are anasazi ruins are and the maps you will need to have to locate--- i loce it in that area--nuff said i can roll on forever about that area of the world--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr Palm harbor, florida 34684 E-mail: Hawknest4@juno.com web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce/ ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Subject: MtMan-List: Sheep skins that need help. [OFF TOPIC] Date: 26 Dec 1999 08:20:46 -0800 Help needed. Seems to be a little slow on the hist_list right now, enclosed is part of a letter I received, this young lady has a problem with several sheep hides and needs some suggestions on how to save them. Any ideas, I contacted the Denver Natural Histroy Museum, but haven't heard back with the Holidays, etc., (these hides have the wool on them), we have covered brain tan to commerical, so someone should have an idea on restoring life to old/new hides that are stiff I would think. Thanks. Buck ________________________________________________________ Dear Mr. Conner, I would appreciate it very much if I could get some information on how to restore some sheepskin pelts that my Sister-In-Law WASHED AND DRIED in her machines!!! They are still in one piece, but the leather is dried out and brittle. I had heard of a way that the Cree used to restore hides and leather products using fats/or lanolin with cornmeal and rubbing it briskly with a rolling pin.... Hopefully, this method makes sense to you? I do have lots of lanolin as I make my own soaps and I definitely would like to see these skins restored for her, but I would prefer to try to do it myself. I was thinking that maybe if I could slowly steam some moisture back into the hide until it was more supple, then I could work in the lanolin to help retain some of the moisture after the hide dried. I have read some of the old pioneering techniques on tanning hides, but there is very little out there other than people trying to sell me their miracle chemicals for a fortune! That is definitely not for me, I do not buy from the internet as I cannot actually see and smell the products offered, and I am tired of these "miracle" products when there are more natural methods that work so much better! Could you please forward me any information you might have gathered? ________________________________________________________ Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html _________________________________ Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sheep skins that need help. [OFF TOPIC] Date: 26 Dec 1999 11:05:06 -0800 Buck wrote: > > Help needed. Buck, I assume you told her about how brain tan hides, etc. are worked to make them dry soft and not turn to rawhide again? I really can't think of any thing other than getting some water soluble tanning oil and spraying it onto the back side of the pelts mixed with water and carefully working the leather until it softens up. I don't think there is any easy way to restore these other than infusing with lanolin or other appropriate oils and working the hides. Hopefully they are not "fried" but just stiff. She could make or have made a simple breaking board of 1X6 with a sharp rounded chisel shape at the upper end and mounted vertically so as to be waist high. That would facilitate the breaking and working of the leather side after it is moistened and oiled. (I think a combination of oil and moisture will be required to break the hide again). The "Cree" method might work, though I still think moisture is needed. And caution her that steam or any heat is the absolute last thing she should use. Tumbling in a cold dryer after they have been moistened with oil and water might ease the labor of softening but I think it will require a modified "breaking" action, per the board. I'm sorry but I do not remember where I came up with the tanning oil I have but it was/is available. I've had my gal. can for 25 years. I remain........ YMOS Capt. Lahti' > > Seems to be a little slow on the hist_list right now, enclosed is part of a letter I received, this young lady has a problem with several sheep hides and needs some suggestions on how to save them. > > Any ideas, I contacted the Denver Natural Histroy Museum, but haven't heard back with the Holidays, etc., (these hides have the wool on them), we have covered brain tan to commerical, so someone should have an idea on restoring life to old/new hides that are stiff I would think. > > Thanks. > Buck > ________________________________________________________ > Dear Mr. Conner, > > I would appreciate it very much if I could get some information on how to restore some sheepskin pelts that my Sister-In-Law WASHED AND DRIED in her machines!!! They are still in one piece, but the leather is dried out and brittle. > > I had heard of a way that the Cree used to restore hides and leather products using fats/or lanolin with cornmeal and rubbing it briskly with a rolling pin.... > > Hopefully, this method makes sense to you? I do have lots of lanolin as I make my own soaps and I definitely would like to see these skins restored for her, but I would prefer to try to do it myself. > > I was thinking that maybe if I could slowly steam some moisture back into the hide until it was more supple, then I could work in the lanolin to help retain some of the moisture after the hide dried. > > I have read some of the old pioneering techniques on tanning hides, but there is very little out there other than people trying to sell me their miracle chemicals for a fortune! That is definitely not for me, I do not buy from the internet as I cannot actually see and smell the products offered, and I am tired of these "miracle" products when there are more natural methods that work so much better! > > Could you please forward me any information you might have gathered? > ________________________________________________________ > > Later, > Buck Conner > _________________________________ > Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html > Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ > AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html > _________________________________ > Aux Ailments de Pays! > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dammiller@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: exploring New Mexico Date: 26 Dec 1999 13:02:39 -0600 Nothwoods Thanks for taking me back to the "El Morro" area. I grew up in the Ramah town about 12-15 miles west of the monument. It was a great childhood and I spent many hours on my own hiking the mountains around that area. My uncle and I found all kinds of native american artifacts while perusing. Hope that they are still there so that I can go back and find them. Thanks again. "Mad" Dave Miller On Fri, 24 Dec 1999 20:25:54 -0600 "northwoods" writes: >Hawk, >The southwest sure does have a lot of neat places. I plan on going >back but >don't know when. I will take you up on your offer to suggest some >places to >explore. Thanks... >This year I was really blessed. I got to see the Rockys from the >Canadian >border all the way down to El Morro National monument which is on the >continental divide almost to the Mexican border. >The diversity and the beauty of the natural wonders of this country >never >cease to amaze me. >When I get down to the southwest agin I would like to take at least a >couple >weeks and get into the back country. Unfortunately it's the one part >of the >country where I don't feel like I really know enough to just set out >on some >major exploring. Not by my lonesome anyway. > >Happy holidays! >northwoods >-----Original Message----- >From: hawknest4@juno.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Friday, December 24, 1999 12:19 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: exploring New Mexico > > >>Northwoods--- >>the next time you plan to go out let me know offline---I might give >you >>some neet points of interest in the area---been in the area climbing >a >>bunch of ruins---neat places--- >> >> "HAWK" >>Michael Pierce >>854 Glenfield Dr. >>Palm Harbor Florida 34684 Phone: 1-727-771-1815 >>e-mail: hawknest4@juno.com >> >>________________________________________________________________ >>YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! >>Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! >>Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: >>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sheep skins that need help. [OFF TOPIC] Date: 26 Dec 1999 16:14:56 -0700 It would appear that the sheep we alum tanned. thus washing them would wash the alum out of them. Usually you can not retan them. But sometimes we have have had them come out OK. Sheep hides need to be tanned with Chrome to make them washable. Joe Brandl Absaroka Tannery Check out our new web site at http://www.dteworld.com/absarokawesterndesign/ We have great home tanning kits based on 20 years experience New leather wildlife coasters and placemats at wholesale prices ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Woodbury Subject: Re: MtMan-List: exploring New Mexico Date: 27 Dec 1999 00:51:48 -0800 Northwoods, Thanks for a most informative post about exploring New Mexico. El Morro was one of the highlights of my first trip through the Southwest -- and I've still only been to that particular site on that one occasion. Something about seeing the actual names carved, just as with Indian petroglyphs, makes the fact of history dramatically tangible. Thanks also for the recommendation on the Cities of Gold book. I love these kinds of historical travelogues, and investigations. Never heard of Preston's book. Incidentally, how long of a drive is it from Albuquerque to Las Cruces? Regards, David Woodbury ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: exploring New Mexico Date: 27 Dec 1999 07:27:36 -0600 -----Original Message----- Incidentally, how long of a drive is it >from Albuquerque to Las Cruces? > >Regards, >David Woodbury I would say it is approx. 275 to 300 miles traveling on interstate 25. I think you will enjoy Preston's book. northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: over-trapping (was: question) Date: 27 Dec 1999 08:55:43 -0700 Before I respond to a point Steve raised, I'd better explain some jargon. "Extirpation" is causing a species to be extinct within part of its range, e.g. wolves have been extirpated from the prairies, but are still present in the mountains. "Commercial extinction" is when the numbers of a species decline to the point where it is no longer economic to exploit them, e.g. Canadian cod. Steve (Huss931@aol.com) wrote: >>The beaver was over harvested by the mountain men. Not to make excuses for this activity, in my research I did find Campbell and others very concerned about this and they often wondered if this was happening. Luckily, silk came in for hats, and beaver became pretty well passe <....> No mountain man would have willingly destroyed the animal life upon which he depended. The information I have seen through reading over a thousand letters from these men seems to indicate that they believed that the supply was probably unlimited.>> This may be true of the mountain men. However, I doubt it was true of the HBC. As I understand it from other folks, Peter Skene Ogden's Snake River campaign was about intentionally causing extirpation of the beaver in the region, to create a "fur desert". In Canada, the history of the fur trade is about hunting beaver in a particular region until they were commercially extinct, forcing fur traders to move further west to areas where beaver were still abundant. This was well-understood by both the North West Company and the HBC; not long after the merger of these two companies, in 1821, the HBC took conservation measures that would have been impractical when they were still competing strongly with the NWC. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: A & E and George Washington--alert only--not for discussion Date: 27 Dec 1999 18:06:55 EST FYI.....just passing this on to anyone who might be interested. No discussion required.......TOF .............................................................................. ............................ On Thursday, January 6, 2000, at 2 PM EST, The A&E Channel will be broadcasting a show about George Washington. A feature of the show includes a question and answer session with an actor playing our first president. A&E has asked that viewers e-mail questions to them so that they can be posed to "George." A&E is essentially an antigun organization. Therefore, I think it would be appropriate for us to ask their incarnation of George Washington the following question: "What does the 2nd Amendment mean to you?" It will be interesting to see what words the antigun nimnods put into the mouth of our nation's founding father. Now, pay attention carefully, you need to mail the question 2 TIMES. All questions received BEFORE the 6th of January will be forwarded to A&E. All questions received ON the 6th will be considered for the broadcast. So, here is what you need to do: 1) Send the question "What does the 2nd Amendment mean to you?" to justaskgeorge@mountvernon.org right now! 2) Send the question again on January 6th to the same e-mail address 3) Let all your pro-gun friends know about this effort and make sure their e-mail box gets flooded! For further information on the program, go to www.mountvernon.org and check out the link at the bottom of their home page that says "Just Ask George" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Woodbury Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A & E and George Washington--alert only--not for Date: 27 Dec 1999 18:40:17 -0800 At 6:06 PM -0500 12/27/99, ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: >FYI.....just passing this on to anyone who might be interested. No >discussion required.......TOF No discussion required, but certainly your comments invite discussion. >A&E is essentially an antigun organization. Therefore, I think it would be >appropriate for us to ask their incarnation of George Washington the >following question: > >"What does the 2nd Amendment mean to you?" Who is "us"? The anti gun control members of the list? I, for one, have no interest in whatever it is the producers at A&E would come up with for an answer on behalf of George Washington. It seems pretty clear from scrutinizing the circumstances of the time, the debates at the constitutional convention, as well as deliberations over the Bill of Rights, that the chief concern over which the 2nd Amendment was drafted was that a too-powerful federal government would attempt to disband or disarm the state militias and incorporate them into a large, national standing army, leaving states without the means to defend themselves. That's why the amendment contains the defining language, "A well-regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State . . .." This same First Congress also limited the national army to 840 men, based on the same fears. It is perfectly reasonable and rational to argue that the 2nd Amendment was meant to protect states' rights, not individual rights. Nothing in the legislative history of the 2nd Amendment or in the debates about the Bill of Rights indicates that the Congress that adopted the Second Amendment intended it to provide for an individual's unregulated "right" to own or use any type of weapon, without restriction or government licensing. This is brought out in nearly every court case dealing with the matter. Rather, the the various states were taking an extra step to protect the rights of states in the face of the creation of a national government (over which everyone was nervous, having just broken off from a nearly all-powerful central government in the monarchy). The present-day corollary to the state militias protected in the Second Amendment is the state national guard, a militia which is "well-regulated" by individual state's governments. David Woodbury ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A & E and George Washington--alert only--not Date: 27 Dec 1999 22:23:45 -0500 David, Unless I misread you completely, you appear to have a mistaken disregard for the critical importance of individual rights. Just like the example of a too-powerful federal government disarming state militias, so to, a too-powerful state government could easily become misled into thinking that the disarming of citizens is the right thing to do. I too, have little interest in the A&E GW program since the producers, I am certain, will air only what they wish to and will not likely touch this hot potato. Tom ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A & E and George Washington--alert only--not fordiscussion Date: 27 Dec 1999 21:22:51 -0600 -----Original Message----- fordiscussion >everyone was nervous, having just broken off >from a nearly all-powerful central government in the monarchy). > >David Woodbury I agree with this much of your statement. northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A & E and George Washington--alert only--not fordiscussion Date: 27 Dec 1999 21:23:15 -0600 So, Mr Woodbury, it is your opinion that individual Americans do not = have the unregulated right to own or use any type of weapon without = restriction or government licensing....that the federal military and the = various state National Guards are empowered by the Constitution to be = armed, but not civilian citizens? Or did I completely misunderstand = your post? =20 I expect that there are some on the list who will disagree with you. I = am one. But I will leave all further discussion of the subject to = others. Lanney Ratcliff ps: Are you a student or do you teach at Stanford? ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Monday, December 27, 1999 8:40 PM fordiscussion > At 6:06 PM -0500 12/27/99, ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: > >FYI.....just passing this on to anyone who might be interested. No > >discussion required.......TOF >=20 > No discussion required, but certainly your comments invite discussion. >=20 > >A&E is essentially an antigun organization. Therefore, I think it = would be > >appropriate for us to ask their incarnation of George Washington the > >following question: > > > >"What does the 2nd Amendment mean to you?" >=20 > Who is "us"? The anti gun control members of the list? I, for one,=20 > have no interest in whatever it is the producers at A&E would come up=20 > with for an answer on behalf of George Washington. It seems pretty=20 > clear from scrutinizing the circumstances of the time, the debates at=20 > the constitutional convention, as well as deliberations over the Bill=20 > of Rights, that the chief concern over which the 2nd Amendment was=20 > drafted was that a too-powerful federal government would attempt to=20 > disband or disarm the state militias and incorporate them into a=20 > large, national standing army, leaving states without the means to=20 > defend themselves. >=20 > That's why the amendment contains the defining language, "A=20 > well-regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free=20 > State . . .." This same First Congress also limited the national army=20 > to 840 men, based on the same fears. >=20 > It is perfectly reasonable and rational to argue that the 2nd=20 > Amendment was meant to protect states' rights, not individual rights.=20 > Nothing in the legislative history of the 2nd Amendment or in the=20 > debates about the Bill of Rights indicates that the Congress that=20 > adopted the Second Amendment intended it to > provide for an individual's unregulated "right" to own or use any=20 > type of weapon, without restriction or government licensing. This is=20 > brought out in nearly every court case dealing with the matter.=20 > Rather, the the various states were taking an extra step to protect=20 > the rights of states in the face of the creation of a national=20 > government (over which everyone was nervous, having just broken off=20 > from a nearly all-powerful central government in the monarchy). The=20 > present-day corollary to the state militias protected in the Second=20 > Amendment is the state national guard, a militia which is=20 > "well-regulated" by individual state's governments. >=20 > David Woodbury >=20 >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Woodbury Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A & E and George Washington--alert only--not Date: 27 Dec 1999 20:08:19 -0800 At 10:23 PM -0500 12/27/99, tom roberts wrote: >Unless I misread you completely, you appear to have a mistaken >disregard for the critical importance of individual rights. Given the choices, I'd have to conclude that you misread me completely. I think individual rights are paramount, and the hallmark of American freedom. I think, historically, these rights led directly to those things that have made this country the greatest nation in the history of nations. >Just like the example of a too-powerful federal government >disarming state militias, so to, a too-powerful state government >could easily become misled into thinking that the disarming of >citizens is the right thing to do. I suppose that's possible. I don't know of anything in the U.S. Constitution that would prevent it. But of course if it came to that, it would only be through the legislation of a representative government, and representative government is one of the true strengths of this country. That said, I can't even imagine a state like California passing such restrictive legislation. David ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Woodbury Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A & E and George Washington--alert only--not Date: 27 Dec 1999 20:08:28 -0800 At 9:23 PM -0600 12/27/99, Ratcliff wrote: >So, Mr Woodbury, it is your opinion that individual Americans do not >have the unregulated right to own or use any type of weapon without >restriction or government licensing... The Constitution itself does not prohibit anyone from owning any kind of weapon, with or without any kind of regulation or license. But neither does it provide a "right" to unregulated ownership of any weapon in the way that it clearly enunciates other individual "rights." My point is that you can interpret the 2nd Amendment in a way that does not restrict government regulation of individual gun ownership. And, in fact, that is how courts have consistently interpreted it, since no court decision on any level (that I am aware of) has actually overturned, or deemed unconstitutional, gun control legislation. >...that the federal military and the various state National Guards >are empowered by the Constitution to be armed, but not civilian >citizens? As I read it, the Constitution does not preclude civilian citizens from being armed. Nor does it preclude government from regulating gun ownership, so long as that regulation doesn't run contrary to armed state militias as spelled out in the 2nd Amendment. >ps: Are you a student or do you teach at Stanford? Neither. A staff member. -- dw ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Dearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A & E and George Washington--alert only--not for discussion Date: 28 Dec 1999 04:14:35 GMT > >A&E has asked that viewers e-mail questions to them so that they can be >posed to "George." > >A&E is essentially an antigun organization. Therefore, I think it would be >appropriate for us to ask their incarnation of George Washington the >following question: > >"What does the 2nd Amendment mean to you?" > As an anti gun organization, A&E would certainly put an anti gun spin on this question. No thanks. We have enough of that without encouraging them. J.D. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A & E and George Washington--alert only--notfordiscussion Date: 27 Dec 1999 22:58:58 -0600 David Thanks for clarifying your position. There are men running for = President (and others who already hold lesser office) who more or less = openly advocate the confiscation of citizens' firearms, holding that = private ownership of guns should be outlawed (or is unconstitutional in = the first place). I am wary of people who even slightly appear to hold = that position. That is why I asked for clarification. =20 Criminals and lunatics, etc obviously should not be allowed firearms and = crimes committed with firearms should be punished severely. However, = lawabiding citizens should not be hindered from owning firearms for any = lawful reason....hunting, self-defense, sport shooting or for the simple = pleasure of possessing them. Concealed carry licenses should be made = available on a "must issue" basis, as is the law in Texas, provided that = a background check is performed (to eliminate the criminals and = lunatics, etc), proficiency is demonstrated and a reasonable = understanding of the law is proved by testing. The CCL law in Texas is = the most vigorous in the US and a person who is issued a license in = Texas, as I have, is pretty much a card carrying solid citizen. I think = that such a person is as much a member the milita as any national guard = Lt.Colonel. I realize that is simply my opinion, but it IS my opinion. Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Monday, December 27, 1999 10:08 PM only--notfordiscussion > At 9:23 PM -0600 12/27/99, Ratcliff wrote: > >So, Mr Woodbury, it is your opinion that individual Americans do not=20 > >have the unregulated right to own or use any type of weapon without=20 > >restriction or government licensing... >=20 > The Constitution itself does not prohibit anyone from owning any kind=20 > of weapon, with or without any kind of regulation or license. But=20 > neither does it provide a "right" to unregulated ownership of any=20 > weapon in the way that it clearly enunciates other individual=20 > "rights." My point is that you can interpret the 2nd Amendment in a=20 > way that does not restrict government regulation of individual gun=20 > ownership. And, in fact, that is how courts have consistently=20 > interpreted it, since no court decision on any level (that I am aware=20 > of) has actually overturned, or deemed unconstitutional, gun control=20 > legislation. >=20 > >...that the federal military and the various state National Guards=20 > >are empowered by the Constitution to be armed, but not civilian=20 > >citizens? >=20 > As I read it, the Constitution does not preclude civilian citizens=20 > from being armed. Nor does it preclude government from regulating gun=20 > ownership, so long as that regulation doesn't run contrary to armed=20 > state militias as spelled out in the 2nd Amendment. >=20 > >ps: Are you a student or do you teach at Stanford? >=20 > Neither. A staff member. >=20 > -- dw >=20 >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne & Terri" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A & E and George Washington--alert only--not fordiscussion Date: 28 Dec 1999 07:44:43 -0800 Gentlemen, I do firmly believe in the 2nd amendment. I do also believe that the government should regulate weapons to a point. I will clarify. I do not believe that we the people should require the people to register their weapons but should regulate on who sells and makes the weapons, mostly type of weapons. I don't believe the everyday person should need the automatic weapon such as the AK 47 or the Usi or the Thompson 45 machine gun. I just don't think we need something like that. If there is a need for the weapon then go get a permit for it. I don't believe the permit should be one that would keep a person from getting it, just a permit that tells the government who owns it. If you need such a weapon. I can speak of some of the folks in my neck of the woods. We have a mix bag of guns, ranging from a 22 to a 30.06, 30-30, 12 gauge, 9 mm, and assorted black powder. We do get a few "nuts" that come out here from the city that have to bring automatic weapons out to just shoot the living hell out of a dumped car. Shooting up a thousand rounds or so of ammo in an hour for just a kick. What is the use is this? All it does for us, is disturb the woods on a weekend and make the women folk nervous about letting the kids run in the woods. They could go to a gun range but obviously they are illegal or to cheap to do this. The average American should be required to take a weapons use course. Where they are instructed with the use of a handgun and a rifle. This should be a introductory course just so if some one comes across a gun somewhere that is unattended they could render it harmless by setting the safety and unloading it with out getting shot or shooting someone. I know I may be stating the obvious and then again I may be trying to simplify the situation. but if more people know about weapons then the less afraid of the weapon they will be. I have been on the soap box to long. A brother Wayne ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A & E and George Washington--alert only--not for Date: 28 Dec 1999 09:30:02 -0700 I think we need to keep our discussion to history. Why do people constantly go way off topic. If you have nothing to contribute to American history, particularly the fur trade. go elsewhere!!!! I don't need a bunch of replies to this note, ie, " this is history" or " this is damn important" Come on, as easy as it is to hit the delete button, I still am tired of non historical B.S. I am sure many people have given up on this email due to all the crap and chit chat. Joe Check out our new web site at http://www.dteworld.com/absarokawesterndesign/ We have great home tanning kits based on 20 years experience New leather wildlife coasters and placemats at wholesale prices ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Huss931@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: over-trapping (was: question) Date: 28 Dec 1999 11:44:48 EST Dear Angela, Thanks for the information about the HBC's intention about the attempt to create a "fur desert." I don't know much about the Canadian operations. I guess that HBC wanted to eliminate the competition through destruction of its competitor's fur sources? That seems pretty short-sighted. Stephen Covey's Seven-Habits of Highly Effective People talks about people who are "Win-Lose" in their attitudes toward others. The believe that in order for them to "win" that someone else has to lose. I guess that HBC operated from that stance. In my studies of the mountain men themselves I did not find that life position-- not that they didn't get a thrill out of winning or besting someone else. Sublette and Campbell were almost gleeful when the American Fur Company did not show up at one rendezvous to compete with them! Thanks for the response. I would like to know more about the Canadian experience. I know that Canada did a much better job about later settlement issues in their West than did the U.S. in ours, but really don't know much about the earlier development and exploration. Can you recommend a book which I should read? Take care, Steve (huss931@aol.com) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Dearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A & E and George Washington--alert only--notfordiscussion Date: 28 Dec 1999 18:11:31 GMT > I think that such a person is as much a member the milita as any > >national guard Lt.Colonel. I realize that is simply my opinion, but >it >IS my opinion. This may be your opinion, but it is based in the Militia Act of 1792 which states that all able bodied males between the ages of 17 and 65 ARE REQUIRED, BY LAW, to own firearms for defense of this nation. WE ARE the militia, whether a member of the National Guard, Army Reserve, AMM, ALRA, NRA, NMLRA, or other private citizen. 'Nuff said. I suggest that anyone who may not agree with the above statement run a search on the net, or I can supply the text. The Federalist Papers also give good insight to the founding fathers views on the right to bear arms. It is also found on the net. Unfortunately I do not have those URL's. J.D. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: michael pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A & E and George Washington--alert only--not fordiscussion Date: 28 Dec 1999 13:11:19 EST thank you should take this discussion offline guys---"its getting a bit on the political side" --not in the historical or Mountain man subjects that are the only things allowed-- doesnt bother me I got a delete key ---but you will probably get into much HEATED discussion that will only fill up band width on the server and no one will in effect solve a problem or come to a LOGICAL SIMPLE SOLUTION --- "HAWK" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr Palm harbor, florida 34684 E-mail: Hawknest4@juno.com web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce/ On Tue, 28 Dec 1999 07:44:43 -0800 "Wayne & Terri" writes: >Gentlemen, > >I do firmly believe in the 2nd amendment. I do also believe that the >government should regulate weapons to a point. I will clarify. I do >not >believe that we the people should require the people to register their >weapons but should regulate on who sells and makes the weapons, mostly >type >of weapons. > >I don't believe the everyday person should need the automatic weapon >such as >the AK 47 or the Usi or the Thompson 45 machine gun. I just don't >think we >need something like that. If there is a need for the weapon then go >get a >permit for it. I don't believe the permit should be one that would >keep a >person from getting it, just a permit that tells the government who >owns it. >If you need such a weapon. > >I can speak of some of the folks in my neck of the woods. We have a >mix bag >of guns, ranging from a 22 to a 30.06, 30-30, 12 gauge, 9 mm, and >assorted >black powder. We do get a few "nuts" that come out here from the city >that >have to bring automatic weapons out to just shoot the living hell out >of a >dumped car. Shooting up a thousand rounds or so of ammo in an hour >for just >a kick. What is the use is this? All it does for us, is disturb the >woods >on a weekend and make the women folk nervous about letting the kids >run in >the woods. They could go to a gun range but obviously they are >illegal or >to cheap to do this. > >The average American should be required to take a weapons use course. >Where >they are instructed with the use of a handgun and a rifle. This >should be a >introductory course just so if some one comes across a gun somewhere >that is >unattended they could render it harmless by setting the safety and >unloading >it with out getting shot or shooting someone. > > >I know I may be stating the obvious and then again I may be trying to >simplify the situation. but if more people know about weapons then >the less >afraid of the weapon they will be. > >I have been on the soap box to long. > >A brother > >Wayne > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Dearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A & E and George Washington--alert only--not fordiscussion Date: 28 Dec 1999 18:42:36 GMT >I do firmly believe in the 2nd amendment. I do also believe that the >government should regulate weapons to a point. Since when can the Federal Government be trusted to do ANYTHING to a point. Excess, yes, but not to any given point. >I will clarify. I do not >believe that we the people should require the people to register their >weapons but should regulate on who sells and makes the weapons, >mostly >type of weapons. This is already done. Manufacturers, dealers and gunsmiths are licenced and subject to unanounced inspectioned of their place of business, records, and record keeping procedures. Full auto weapons can only be sold to class three dealers. Class three dealers are required to submitt to a several month FBI backround check, several hundred dollar annual license fee, and special requirements for storage of these weapons, i.e. something approaching a bank vault. >I don't believe the everyday person should need the automatic weapon such >as >the AK 47 or the Usi or the Thompson 45 machine gun. I just don't think we >need something like that. If there is a need for the weapon then go get a >permit for it. I don't believe the permit should be one that would keep a >person from getting it, just a permit that tells the government who owns >it. >If you need such a weapon. > What are you calling automatic weapons? Full auto, or semi auto? big difference. You don't think we need anything like that? How about those folks who don't think we need any firearms, for any reason. Would you agree with them if they wanted to take YOUR guns? I do believe that Califoria, and New Jersey have already required registration of so called "assault rifles" with the promise that they would in no way be confiscated at some later date. Well, about a year after the registration was complete, guess what happened? Yep, those states declared those "assault weapons" illegal and instructed the owners to turn them in. Yep, we can trust our government to lie to us. >I can speak of some of the folks in my neck of the woods. We have a mix >bag >of guns, ranging from a 22 to a 30.06, 30-30, 12 gauge, 9 mm, and assorted >black powder. We do get a few "nuts" that come out here from the city that >have to bring automatic weapons out to just shoot the living hell out of a >dumped car. Shooting up a thousand rounds or so of ammo in an hour for >just >a kick. What is the use is this? All it does for us, is disturb the woods >on a weekend and make the women folk nervous about letting the kids run in >the woods. They could go to a gun range but obviously they are illegal or >to cheap to do this. > What harm does it do, other than upsetting you? I ocasionally do this myself, however, I do it on an established gun club range. And it is a kick. ;-) >The average American should be required to take a weapons use course. >Where >they are instructed with the use of a handgun and a rifle. This should be >a >introductory course just so if some one comes across a gun somewhere that >is >unattended they could render it harmless by setting the safety and >unloading >it with out getting shot or shooting someone. > The NRA is attempting to do this very thing with the Eddie Eagle program in the public school system, but the anti gun crowd are fighting this tooth and nail. We also have to take into consideration that any firearms training program, required by the government, could be so under funded, read no funding, as to prevent anyone from taking the course, so no one could be certified to own firearms, hence no ownership of firearms. Be careful what you ask for, you may get it. J.D. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Dearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A & E and George Washington--alert only--not for discussion Date: 28 Dec 1999 18:46:39 GMT >I think we need to keep our discussion to history. Why do people >constantly go way off topic. If you have nothing to contribute to >American history, particularly the fur trade. go elsewhere!!!! Check out >our new web site at >http://www.dteworld.com/absarokawesterndesign/ >We have great home tanning kits based on 20 years experience >New leather wildlife coasters and placemats at wholesale prices > And your add for tanning kits, wildlife coaters, and place matts has something to do with history? Do you have documentation for those coasters, and place matts? Judge not lest Ye be judged. J.D. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Texan" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A & E and George Washington--alert only--not fordiscussion Date: 28 Dec 1999 13:46:55 -0600 >At 10:23 PM -0500 12/27/99, tom roberts wrote: > >>Just like the example of a too-powerful federal government >>disarming state militias, so to, a too-powerful state government >>could easily become misled into thinking that the disarming of >>citizens is the right thing to do. David Woodbury replies: > >I suppose that's possible. I don't know of anything in the U.S. >Constitution that would prevent it. But of course if it came to that, >it would only be through the legislation of a representative >government, and representative government is one of the true >strengths of this country. That said, I can't even imagine a state >like California passing such restrictive legislation. > The following is from TSRA Sportsman- "Journal of The Texas State Rifle Association" Sept/Oct 1999 "The state attorney general for California recently dropped his predecessor's appeal of a lawsuit over gun registration, clearing the way for the state to order of about 1,600 guns to surrender them to law enforcement officials. Attorney General Bill Lockyer plans to ask the Legislature to provide funding to compensate owners who turn in the weapons, valued at $750 to-$1,500 each. A June 1989 state law prohibited the sale and possession of 62 models of military-style firearms, but let residents who owned those types of guns at that time keep them if they registered them with the state by March 30, 1992. Lockyer's predeccessor, Dan Hungren, let people who owned the guns before June register them without prosecution or confiscation after the 1992 deadline. Handgun Control and the Center to Prevent Hangun Violence won a ruling from San Fransico judge in 1997 that any registration of the banned weapons after March 1992 was invalid. Hungren appealed the decision. Sam Paredes, deputy director of Gun Owners of California accused Lockyer of going after owners who registered in good faith. " It is unreasonable to have citizens who tried to obey the law and who followed the directions of the attorney general to be forced to surrender their guns. That is ridiculous, " Paredes said." (end of article) Any involvement in gun registration, monitering, requirments testing, training, etc., is NOT a legitimate function of government as defined by our forefathers who wrote the Constitution. What is happening in California is evidence of what is called encroachment, which has as its eventual goal the law abiding citizen being completely disarmed. There is a saying: As California goes, so goes the rest of the nation. Not in this case. I dare say that this could not happen in Texas. As was recently mentioned to me, there is nothing as so dangerous as a riled Texican. Victoria Pate Riled Texican ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ad.miller@mindspring.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A & E and George Washington--alert only--not fordiscussion Date: 28 Dec 1999 14:54:54 -0500 Come on, as easy as it is to hit the delete >button, I still am tired of non historical B.S. I am sure many people >have given up on this email due to all the crap and chit chat. >Joe Joe, this IS history. This is WHY we are able to go shooting on weekends, etc.... Ease up.... Ad Miller ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A & E and George Washington--alert only--not for Date: 28 Dec 1999 12:15:47 -0800 John Dearing wrote: > And your add for tanning kits, wildlife coaters, and place matts has > something to do with history? Do you have documentation for those coasters, > and place matts? John and friends, John has a good point here and I hope all involved understand that it was extended in all good humor. But for my money I see nothing wrong with continuing the discussion in this venue provided........ What our founding fathers had to say about the Constitution and Bill of Rights is surely of historical interest to us. If we can keep the discussion to that vein and not let modern politics enter in then I say have at it. The time frame is surely appropriate. I see no restrictions on time frame other than early American History. I happen to agree with John's basic point concerning what was meant when the Bill of Rights and Constitution were first born in the minds of men and why it was written down the way it was and even more importantly, why it was written down in the first place and not just left unsaid as a "given". A civil but learned and lively discussion of such could enlighten some and perhaps give rise to a better understanding of why some folks are a bit paranoid about what our present government seems to be doing. (I don't see them as sinister plotters but rather misguided in their search for problems that plague our society today). I vote to charge the battlements! I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Anne MacDonnald Subject: MtMan-List: rabbit fur Date: 29 Dec 1999 16:52:42 -0500 hi all; Not to change the subject or anything... I have a friend that is in desperate need of a large quantity of both black and white rabbit skins... He used to do Tandy... we all know where they went. [smiles] any url's that I might send him too to buy? thanks in advance Anne MacDonnald ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit fur Date: 28 Dec 1999 14:27:18 -0800 Anne MacDonnald wrote: > > hi all; > Not to change the subject or anything... Anne, Yea sure. Where is your friend located? It may be just as easy to put him onto a Leather House like Spokane Leather, Oregon Leather, Moscow Hide and Fur, etc. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit fur Date: 28 Dec 1999 17:07:52 -0800 Or to Zack White. Good prices - good quality - fast service. Bill C. -----Original Message----- > > >Anne MacDonnald wrote: >> >> hi all; >> Not to change the subject or anything... > >Anne, > >Yea sure. Where is your friend located? It may be just as easy to >put him onto a Leather House like Spokane Leather, Oregon Leather, >Moscow Hide and Fur, etc. I remain.... > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Woodbury Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A & E and George Washington--alert only--not Date: 28 Dec 1999 16:22:38 -0800 At 1:46 PM -0600 12/28/99, Texan wrote: >Lockyer's predeccessor, Dan Hungren, let people who owned the guns before >June register them without prosecution or confiscation after the >1992 deadline. Don't know who's writing for the "Journal of The Texas State Rifle Association," but I wonder about the accuracy of the article in general when the names of the two principal individuals (California state attorney generals) are incorrect throughout. It's Bill Lockyear, and Dan Lundgren. But anyway, I don't see the point. Nothing in that article suggests that California is trying to universally disarm the state's legal gun owners. >Any involvement in gun registration, monitering, requirments testing, >training, etc., >is NOT a legitimate function of government as defined by our forefathers >who wrote the Constitution. If you could find one thing in the Constitution that forbid such legislation, I might agree with you. As it was intended, the Constitution is a living document which made provisions for successive generations to modify and interpret (hence *amendments,* including the 2nd). Since these powers are not prohibited in the Constitution, and since the Federal government is not delegated that power by the Constitution, presumably they are powers reserved by the States themselves. Nothing in the California state constitution forbids the legislature from passing gun control legislation. >What is happening in California is evidence >of what is called encroachment, which has as its eventual goal the law >abiding >citizen being completely disarmed. With all due respect, I think that is absurd. The simple fact is, most citizens just do not feel it's necessary that everyone have access to serious military hardware. >There is a saying: As California goes, so goes the rest of the >nation. Not in this case. I dare say that this could not happen >in Texas. What could not happen in Texas? David ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A & E and George Washington--alert only--not fordiscussion Date: 28 Dec 1999 16:43:51 -0800 It is NOT "Bill Lockyear". He is Bill Lockyer!!!! Sort of puts Your accuracy into question....using, of course, your test for accuracy. John Funk ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 1999 4:22 PM fordiscussion > At 1:46 PM -0600 12/28/99, Texan wrote: > >Lockyer's predeccessor, Dan Hungren, let people who owned the guns before > >June register them without prosecution or confiscation after the > >1992 deadline. > > Don't know who's writing for the "Journal of The Texas State Rifle > Association," but I wonder about the accuracy of the article in > general when the names of the two principal individuals (California > state attorney generals) are incorrect throughout. It's Bill > Lockyear, and Dan Lundgren. But anyway, I don't see the point. > Nothing in that article suggests that California is trying to > universally disarm the state's legal gun owners. > > >Any involvement in gun registration, monitering, requirments testing, > >training, etc., > >is NOT a legitimate function of government as defined by our forefathers > >who wrote the Constitution. > > If you could find one thing in the Constitution that forbid such > legislation, I might agree with you. As it was intended, the > Constitution is a living document which made provisions for > successive generations to modify and interpret (hence *amendments,* > including the 2nd). Since these powers are not prohibited in the > Constitution, and since the Federal government is not delegated that > power by the Constitution, presumably they are powers reserved by the > States themselves. Nothing in the California state constitution > forbids the legislature from passing gun control legislation. > > >What is happening in California is evidence > >of what is called encroachment, which has as its eventual goal the law > >abiding > >citizen being completely disarmed. > > With all due respect, I think that is absurd. The simple fact is, > most citizens just do not feel it's necessary that everyone have > access to serious military hardware. > > >There is a saying: As California goes, so goes the rest of the > >nation. Not in this case. I dare say that this could not happen > >in Texas. > > What could not happen in Texas? > > David > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Woodbury Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A & E and George Washington--alert only--not Date: 28 Dec 1999 17:28:55 -0800 At 4:43 PM -0800 12/28/99, John C. Funk, Jr. wrote: >It is NOT "Bill Lockyear". He is Bill Lockyer!!!! > >Sort of puts Your accuracy into question....using, of course, your test for >accuracy. > >John Funk John, Yes, I made a mistake. It's often listed as Lockyear, and I'm surprised it's not, to tell you the truth. You probably noticed, however, that there is no former Attorney General Bill Hungren. My point remains, as I said: "...anyway, I don't see the point. Nothing in that article suggests that California is trying to universally disarm the state's legal gun owners." David ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: MtMan-List: Re: GW, A&E, CA, and closure? Date: 28 Dec 1999 20:39:25 -0500 And a disease is not always correctly diagnosed from the early symptom. I think even old George may have had his fill on this topic Tom David Woodbury wrote:John, > Nothing in that article suggests that California is trying to universally > disarm the state's legal gun owners." > > David ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Woodbury Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: GW, A&E, CA, and closure? Date: 28 Dec 1999 17:51:47 -0800 At 8:39 PM -0500 12/28/99, tom roberts wrote: >And a disease is not always correctly diagnosed from the early symptom. But mostly likely the original diagnosis was arose from a rational, calculated examination, as opposed to wild speculation. In the case at hand, someone has seen what they think is a symptom, and went straight to a diagnosis of terminal cancer. David ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: over-trapping Date: 28 Dec 1999 19:19:07 -0700 Steve (Huss931@aol.com) wrote: >> Thanks for the information about the HBC's intention about the attempt to create a "fur desert." I don't know much about the Canadian operations. I guess that HBC wanted to eliminate the competition through destruction of its competitor's fur sources? That seems pretty short-sighted. << Apparently, the idea was that the HBC would get lots of fur in the short term, improving their bottom line, and get rid of the competition from the troublesome Mountain Men by denying them any profits from the Snake River basin. In the longer term, I suppose furs from other areas would subsidize the HBC's Columbia District posts until the beaver recovered in the Snake River valley. Perhaps somebody else has more info on this subject? I'm afraid it's out of my main research area. >>Stephen Covey's Seven-Habits of Highly Effective People talks about people who are "Win-Lose" in their attitudes toward others. The believe that in order for them to "win" that someone else has to lose. I guess that HBC operated from that stance.<< They had to--they'd spent the entire period from ~1812 to 1822 in near-warfare with their North West Company rivals. This period gives the term "hostile takeover" new meaning. The NWC & its Metis (half-breed) allies were directly responsible for the deaths of 20 HBC men & allies in the fight at Seven Oaks, Manitoba, as well as the deaths by starvation of a dozen or so HBC men in the Athabasca area (N. Alberta & Saskatchewan), under John Clarke. Both sides took prisoners in a number of other incidents. After the two companies merged in 1821, the toughest NWC employees were put into key management positions in the newly-reorganized HBC. Some NWC "bullies" were later transferred to the HBC's Columbia district: Samuel Black, Dr. John McLoughlin, Finan McDonald, and Peter Skene Ogden, to name a few. >> I know that Canada did a much better job about later settlement issues in their West than did the U.S. in ours, but really don't know much about the earlier development and exploration. Can you recommend a book which I should read?<< For an introduction to the Canadian fur trade, 1774-1869, I recommend : Newman, Peter C. _Caesars of the Wilderness_. Viking : Markham, Ontario, 1987. ISBN 0-670-80967-5. This book is also available in paperback, and is a fairly easy read. For Canadian history in general, I suggest: Brown, Craig (ed.). _The Illustrated History of Canada_. Make sure to get the 2d edition; the first edition has many errors which were corrected later. Each chapter is written by a different historian knowledgeable on that period. These books are both in print. If you can't find these books in your local library or bookstore, a couple of reputable Canadian online bookstores are www.chapters.ca and www.indigo.ca--they're the online arms of large chains. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: Address Request Date: 28 Dec 1999 20:34:01 -0600 >=20 > Will you please forward this request to the A.M.M. list and the Drudy = history=20 > list. >=20 > I am trying to locate a telephone number or an address for Fred R. = Gowans,=20 > author of Rocky Mountain Rendezvous. >=20 > Thanks for your help. > I may be reached at Wind1838@aol.com > Laura Glise ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MdntRdr1@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Santa Fe Date: 28 Dec 1999 21:47:02 EST I'm going thru Santa Fe in the morning on the way back to CA and does anyone on the list here know of a place in town, or maybe Albuquerque that has a good selection of serapes, aka the blanket poncho thing that Clint wore in the spaghetti westerns? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: GW, A&E, CA, and closure? Date: 28 Dec 1999 18:50:18 -0800 A good analogy.... John ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 1999 5:51 PM > At 8:39 PM -0500 12/28/99, tom roberts wrote: > >And a disease is not always correctly diagnosed from the early symptom. > > But mostly likely the original diagnosis was arose from a rational, > calculated examination, as opposed to wild speculation. > > In the case at hand, someone has seen what they think is a symptom, > and went straight to a diagnosis of terminal cancer. > > David > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: Help for Sheepskins? also an off-topic idea Date: 28 Dec 1999 22:23:53 -0500 (EST) wonder if 100% pure neatsfoot oil would work good in it? [rub-in 3 generous but not excessive coatings, 24-48 hours between each coat?]. A&E's version of Washington should ask all responsible, clear-conscience, law-abiding, liberty-loving citizenry 18 years and above to become life members in the NRA in this the 224th year of freedom in The Beloved Republic. from Michigan Territory ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Anne MacDonnald Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit fur Date: 29 Dec 1999 22:27:13 -0500 Hi Cap, he is in the wilds of Ohio I think, some horridly cold place like that. Thought to dig up some of my buckskinning url's but not sure exactly where to send him... at this point all I know is that he needs the stuff asap. Some sort of Valentine Day project. thanks in advance... R Lahti wrote: > Anne MacDonnald wrote: > > > > hi all; > > Not to change the subject or anything... > > Anne, > > Yea sure. Where is your friend located? It may be just as easy to > put him onto a Leather House like Spokane Leather, Oregon Leather, > Moscow Hide and Fur, etc. I remain.... > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Anne MacDonnald Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit fur Date: 29 Dec 1999 22:30:17 -0500 Great guys, but addresses, url's and/or phones numbers would be most excellent. {huge smiles} me? I wait for the Alafia and do Spotted Pony. thanks and it is only something like 3 weeks till the Alafia.. anne Bill Cunningham wrote: > Or to Zack White. Good prices - good quality - fast service. > > Bill C. > -----Original Message----- > From: R Lahti > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Tuesday, December 28, 1999 2:25 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit fur > > > > > > >Anne MacDonnald wrote: > >> > >> hi all; > >> Not to change the subject or anything... > > > >Anne, > > > >Yea sure. Where is your friend located? It may be just as easy to > >put him onto a Leather House like Spokane Leather, Oregon Leather, > >Moscow Hide and Fur, etc. I remain.... > > > >YMOS > >Capt. Lahti' > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Santa Fe Date: 28 Dec 1999 20:44:46 -0800 Down on the old town square there is an antique shop upstairs (or used to be) that often sells what are actually museum pieces for very low prices considering - or you might buy one of the surplus Italian wool army blankets (with the Texas star) from Sportsmans Guide and make one. You can also get it from Ray Glazner (Images of the Past)for about 20.00 I think. -----Original Message----- >I'm going thru Santa Fe in the morning on the way back to CA and does anyone >on the list here know of a place in town, or maybe Albuquerque that has a >good selection of serapes, aka the blanket poncho thing that Clint wore in >the spaghetti westerns? > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit fur Date: 28 Dec 1999 20:46:57 -0800 Someone else who has lots of rabbit furs for sale is Tree (AMM) down in Wichita Falls TX. I don't have his phone or address handy, but he usually has a ton or so of the things on hand and will ship. -----Original Message----- >Hi Cap, he is in the wilds of Ohio I think, some horridly cold place like >that. Thought to dig up some of my buckskinning url's but not sure >exactly where to send him... at this point all I know is that he needs the >stuff asap. Some sort of Valentine Day project. >thanks in advance... > >R Lahti wrote: > >> Anne MacDonnald wrote: >> > >> > hi all; >> > Not to change the subject or anything... >> >> Anne, >> >> Yea sure. Where is your friend located? It may be just as easy to >> put him onto a Leather House like Spokane Leather, Oregon Leather, >> Moscow Hide and Fur, etc. I remain.... >> >> YMOS >> Capt. Lahti' >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit fur Date: 28 Dec 1999 20:50:13 -0800 Zack White + 1515 Main Street Ramseur, NC 27316 1-800-535-0918 Spotted Pony 7373 St. Francis St Louisville OH 44641 (330) 875-3064 -or- Hawthorne FL (352) 372-4875 -----Original Message----- >Great guys, but addresses, url's and/or phones numbers would be most >excellent. {huge smiles} me? I wait for the Alafia and do >Spotted Pony. thanks and it is only something like 3 weeks till the >Alafia.. >anne > >Bill Cunningham wrote: > >> Or to Zack White. Good prices - good quality - fast service. >> >> Bill C. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: R Lahti >> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> Date: Tuesday, December 28, 1999 2:25 PM >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit fur >> >> > >> > >> >Anne MacDonnald wrote: >> >> >> >> hi all; >> >> Not to change the subject or anything... >> > >> >Anne, >> > >> >Yea sure. Where is your friend located? It may be just as easy to >> >put him onto a Leather House like Spokane Leather, Oregon Leather, >> >Moscow Hide and Fur, etc. I remain.... >> > >> >YMOS >> >Capt. Lahti' >> > >> >---------------------- >> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: farseer Subject: RE: MtMan-List: A & E and George Washington--alert Date: 28 Dec 1999 21:42:18 -0600 Point of clarification: ownership of a fully automatic Uzi, Ak-47, Thompson et al requires a Class III FFL, most of the general populace does not hold such. Ownership of this type of firearm without said permit is illegal already, and has been so since 1968. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Wayne & Terri > Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 1999 9:45 AM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A & E and George Washington--alert > only--notfordiscussion > > > Gentlemen, > > I do firmly believe in the 2nd amendment. I do also believe that the > government should regulate weapons to a point. I will clarify. I do not > believe that we the people should require the people to register their > weapons but should regulate on who sells and makes the weapons, > mostly type > of weapons. > > I don't believe the everyday person should need the automatic > weapon such as > the AK 47 or the Usi or the Thompson 45 machine gun. I just > don't think we > need something like that. If there is a need for the weapon then go get a > permit for it. I don't believe the permit should be one that would keep a > person from getting it, just a permit that tells the government > who owns it. > If you need such a weapon. > > I can speak of some of the folks in my neck of the woods. We > have a mix bag > of guns, ranging from a 22 to a 30.06, 30-30, 12 gauge, 9 mm, and assorted > black powder. We do get a few "nuts" that come out here from the > city that > have to bring automatic weapons out to just shoot the living hell out of a > dumped car. Shooting up a thousand rounds or so of ammo in an > hour for just > a kick. What is the use is this? All it does for us, is disturb > the woods > on a weekend and make the women folk nervous about letting the kids run in > the woods. They could go to a gun range but obviously they are illegal or > to cheap to do this. > > The average American should be required to take a weapons use > course. Where > they are instructed with the use of a handgun and a rifle. This > should be a > introductory course just so if some one comes across a gun > somewhere that is > unattended they could render it harmless by setting the safety > and unloading > it with out getting shot or shooting someone. > > > I know I may be stating the obvious and then again I may be trying to > simplify the situation. but if more people know about weapons > then the less > afraid of the weapon they will be. > > I have been on the soap box to long. > > A brother > > Wayne > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Anne MacDonnald Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit fur Date: 29 Dec 1999 22:44:05 -0500 can you scare it up... i would greatly appreciate it. thanks anne Bill Cunningham wrote: > Someone else who has lots of rabbit furs for sale is Tree (AMM) down in > Wichita Falls TX. I don't have his phone or address handy, but he usually > has a ton or so of the things on hand and will ship. > -----Original Message----- > From: Anne MacDonnald > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Tuesday, December 28, 1999 7:28 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit fur > > >Hi Cap, he is in the wilds of Ohio I think, some horridly cold place like > >that. Thought to dig up some of my buckskinning url's but not sure > >exactly where to send him... at this point all I know is that he needs the > >stuff asap. Some sort of Valentine Day project. > >thanks in advance... > > > >R Lahti wrote: > > > >> Anne MacDonnald wrote: > >> > > >> > hi all; > >> > Not to change the subject or anything... > >> > >> Anne, > >> > >> Yea sure. Where is your friend located? It may be just as easy to > >> put him onto a Leather House like Spokane Leather, Oregon Leather, > >> Moscow Hide and Fur, etc. I remain.... > >> > >> YMOS > >> Capt. Lahti' > >> > >> ---------------------- > >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit fur Date: 28 Dec 1999 22:49:33 -0500 Spotted Pony is THE best!!! Been buying from them for 9 years... Ad Miller me? I wait for the Alafia and do >Spotted Pony. thanks and it is only something like 3 weeks till the >Alafia.. >anne > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: MtMan-List: Rabbit Fur Date: 28 Dec 1999 19:53:16 -0800 (PST) The last I knew of Tree Wood, he was moving his stuff to his home. The last card I have from him, list RABBIT FURS $75.00/100. His phone # on this card (home) is 940-586-194. Wichita Falls TX. ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit fur Date: 28 Dec 1999 22:02:07 -0600 Glen (Tree) Wood PO Box 21 Holiday, Tx 76366 940-586-1943 ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 1999 9:44 PM > can you scare it up... i would greatly appreciate it. thanks anne >=20 > Bill Cunningham wrote: >=20 > > Someone else who has lots of rabbit furs for sale is Tree (AMM) down = in > > Wichita Falls TX. I don't have his phone or address handy, but he = usually > > has a ton or so of the things on hand and will ship. > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Anne MacDonnald > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > Date: Tuesday, December 28, 1999 7:28 PM > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit fur > > > > >Hi Cap, he is in the wilds of Ohio I think, some horridly cold = place like > > >that. Thought to dig up some of my buckskinning url's but not = sure > > >exactly where to send him... at this point all I know is that he = needs the > > >stuff asap. Some sort of Valentine Day project. > > >thanks in advance... > > > > > >R Lahti wrote: > > > > > >> Anne MacDonnald wrote: > > >> > > > >> > hi all; > > >> > Not to change the subject or anything... > > >> > > >> Anne, > > >> > > >> Yea sure. Where is your friend located? It may be just as = easy to > > >> put him onto a Leather House like Spokane Leather, Oregon = Leather, > > >> Moscow Hide and Fur, etc. I remain.... > > >> > > >> YMOS > > >> Capt. Lahti' > > >> > > >> ---------------------- > > >> hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > >---------------------- > > >hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: MtMan-List: Aphishamores ??? Date: 28 Dec 1999 20:03:33 -0800 (PST) In Terry C. Johnston's book "Blood Song". book 8 of the series "THE PLAINSMEN" I have found , Aphishamores, the leather and canvas covers for the pack saddles. Aparejos, saddle pads used beneath the mules' wooden pack frames. Just thought I wood pass this along as I raised the question earlier. grn ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: Fwd: MtMan-List: Rabbit Fur Tree Wood # correction Date: 28 Dec 1999 20:07:15 -0800 (PST) --- George Noe wrote: > Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 19:53:16 -0800 (PST) > From: George Noe > Subject: MtMan-List: Rabbit Fur > To: hist_ text > Reply-to: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > The last I knew of Tree Wood, he was moving his > stuff > to his home. The last card I have from him, list > RABBIT FURS $75.00/100. > His phone # on this card (home) is 940-586-1943. > Wichita Falls TX. > > > ===== > George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > > > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the > skyline. > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://messenger.yahoo.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: MtMan-List: Pine bough beds Date: 28 Dec 1999 21:44:31 -0700 Hello the List, This is a great "window of opportunity" for you to try out the old time pine bough bed. Gather up a couple of good bushy Christmas trees, find your self a place to camp, trim the branches off the tree and you now have the makin's for a good nights sleep. Get the branches about 6-8" deep, throw your ground cloth over them, then your bed roll. You'll enjoy a wonderful night of sleep, with a nice smell from the pine boughs. We've done this in the past and it has worked out great. YMOS, Allen Hall in Fort Hall country Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: MtMan-List: Change the topic line Date: 28 Dec 1999 21:44:30 -0700 Hello all, The current "gun control" issue doesn't have much to do with George W. How about changing the topic line? Thanks, Allen Hall Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Dearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A & E and George Washington--alert only--not fordiscussion Date: 29 Dec 1999 04:52:40 GMT >But anyway, I don't see the point. >Nothing in that article suggests that California is trying to >universally disarm the state's legal gun owners. > I do believe the point of this reference was to illustrate how registering firearms, "just so the government would know who owned them" can be, and was used to find out where those firearms were, then forced the owners to turn them in or to become criminals. Any registration scheme can, and based on recent history, will be used for the purpose of confiscation. I do believe the Second Amendment contains the phrase "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed", according to the Thordike Barnhart Dictionary, an infringement is anything that hinders, violates, encroaches upon, or intrudes upon, in this case, the lawful ownership of firearms. That means that the government does not have the legitimate authority to, in any way, restrict the ownership of firearms to it's law abiding citizens. J.D. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit fur Date: 28 Dec 1999 22:45:36 -0800 I don't have it, and don't have a way of getting it. He may be in the phone book: Glen Wood is Tree's other name. Or there may be someone out there reading this who can furnish it. I did send the number of Zack White on another missive. -----Original Message----- >can you scare it up... i would greatly appreciate it. thanks anne > >Bill Cunningham wrote: > >> Someone else who has lots of rabbit furs for sale is Tree (AMM) down in >> Wichita Falls TX. I don't have his phone or address handy, but he usually >> has a ton or so of the things on hand and will ship. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Anne MacDonnald >> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> Date: Tuesday, December 28, 1999 7:28 PM >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit fur >> >> >Hi Cap, he is in the wilds of Ohio I think, some horridly cold place like >> >that. Thought to dig up some of my buckskinning url's but not sure >> >exactly where to send him... at this point all I know is that he needs the >> >stuff asap. Some sort of Valentine Day project. >> >thanks in advance... >> > >> >R Lahti wrote: >> > >> >> Anne MacDonnald wrote: >> >> > >> >> > hi all; >> >> > Not to change the subject or anything... >> >> >> >> Anne, >> >> >> >> Yea sure. Where is your friend located? It may be just as easy to >> >> put him onto a Leather House like Spokane Leather, Oregon Leather, >> >> Moscow Hide and Fur, etc. I remain.... >> >> >> >> YMOS >> >> Capt. Lahti' >> >> >> >> ---------------------- >> >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > >> > >> >---------------------- >> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: Re: MtMan-List: TREE WOOD"S PHONE NOMBER Date: 28 Dec 1999 21:55:55 -0800 (PST) CHECK MY PREVIOUS POST RABBIT FUR Glen "Tree" Wood 940-586-1943 Wichita Falls TX. --- Bill Cunningham wrote: > I don't have it, and don't have a way of getting it. > He may be in the phone > book: Glen Wood is Tree's other name. Or there may > be someone out there > reading this who can furnish it. I did send the > number of Zack White on > another missive. > -----Original Message----- > From: Anne MacDonnald > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > Date: Tuesday, December 28, 1999 7:53 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit fur > > > >can you scare it up... i would greatly appreciate > it. thanks anne > > > >Bill Cunningham wrote: > > > >> Someone else who has lots of rabbit furs for sale > is Tree (AMM) down in > >> Wichita Falls TX. I don't have his phone or > address handy, but he usually > >> has a ton or so of the things on hand and will > ship. > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Anne MacDonnald > >> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > >> Date: Tuesday, December 28, 1999 7:28 PM > >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit fur > >> > >> >Hi Cap, he is in the wilds of Ohio I think, some > horridly cold place > like > >> >that. Thought to dig up some of my > buckskinning url's but not sure > >> >exactly where to send him... at this point all I > know is that he needs > the > >> >stuff asap. Some sort of Valentine Day project. > >> >thanks in advance... > >> > > >> >R Lahti wrote: > >> > > >> >> Anne MacDonnald wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > hi all; > >> >> > Not to change the subject or anything... > > >> >> > >> >> Anne, > >> >> > >> >> Yea sure. Where is your friend located? It > may be just as easy to > >> >> put him onto a Leather House like Spokane > Leather, Oregon Leather, > >> >> Moscow Hide and Fur, etc. I remain.... > >> >> > >> >> YMOS > >> >> Capt. Lahti' > >> >> > >> >> ---------------------- > >> >> hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >> > > >> > > >> >---------------------- > >> >hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >> > >> ---------------------- > >> hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Woodbury Subject: MtMan-List: Re: dead horse gun discussion Date: 28 Dec 1999 22:52:51 -0800 At 4:52 AM +0000 12/29/99, John Dearing wrote: >I do believe the point of this reference was to illustrate how >registering firearms, "just so the government would know who owned >them" can be, and was used to find out where those firearms were, >then forced the owners to turn them in or to become criminals. Sorry to keep dragging this out, but the "point" of the reference was the concluding comment in the message to which I responded. Summing up the reference, Texan said: "What is happening in California is evidence of what is called encroachment, which has as its eventual goal the law abiding citizen being completely disarmed." Incidentally, if I read Texan's excerpt correctly, the only people being asked to turn in guns were those who already owned these so-called military style firearms, but who failed to register them in the 2+ years allotted. Whether or not you agree that the Attorney General had the authority to tell people they could register them after that 1992 date (evidently a court disagreed), the fact remains that the state of California allowed everyone to *keep* their weapons, except those who failed to meet the extraordinarily generous deadline (between 1989 and 1992, according to Texan's excerpt). >Any registration scheme can, and based on recent history, will be >used for the purpose of confiscation. Seems to me it is just the opposite. Is there anything you can point me to which shows a trend toward confiscating the registered weapons of citizens? The example used here deals with 1,600 guns that the owners originally failed to register by the deadline (I think the Johnny-come-latelys did get screwed, but they could easily have avoided the problem by complying with the law initially). But surely the millions of registered weapons in this country have remained legally secure in their owners' possession just as long as they were legally registered. What recent history are you referring to (admittedly, it's not something I follow very closely). >I do believe the Second Amendment contains the phrase "the right of >the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed", according >to the Thordike Barnhart Dictionary, an infringement is anything >that hinders, violates, encroaches upon, or intrudes upon, in this >case, the lawful ownership of firearms. And the courts, in light of the *entire* sentence (referencing militias), have consistently ruled that the amendment in no way suggests an inalienable personal right for a citizen to possess whatever weaponry they wish without some legislative constraints. >That means that the government does not have the legitimate >authority to, in any way, restrict the ownership of firearms to it's >law abiding citizens. That's one interpretation. Just not the one that most courts have arrived at. David ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: las vegas rendezvous (fwd) Date: 28 Dec 1999 23:46:07 -0800 (PST) Good Day Ladies and Gents Just a "pass-on" message about a Rendezvous down south. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Rendezvous! Spring Mountain Free Trappers Feb 19th- 21st Cactus Springs NV (41 mi no. of Las Vegas on Highway 95) For more information call Naugamok at (702) 456-5736 (booshway) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: las vegas rendezvous (fwd) Date: 29 Dec 1999 04:12:59 EST In a message dated 12/28/1999 11:46:50 PM Pacific Standard Time, lnewbill@uidaho.edu writes: << For more information call Naugamok at (702) 456-5736 (booshway) >> That'd be me! Email to "naugamok@aol.com" works too. Thanks for the "plug"! Kindly ask about our doin's off list please. NM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: michael pierce Subject: MtMan-List: Re: dead horse gun discussion Date: 29 Dec 1999 11:10:33 EST david and all---look at canada as we speak---nuff said dead horse---not a subject for the amm chat--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr Palm harbor, florida 34684 E-mail: Hawknest4@juno.com web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce/ ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Huss931@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: over-trapping Date: 29 Dec 1999 11:43:28 EST Angela, THANKS! I will look for both of those books. This is really an exciting period of study, isn't it? Yours, Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Coffee grinders Date: 29 Dec 1999 13:38:11 EST Ho the list, Just when ya think all the dumb questions have been asked..... One of the items I got for being a good camper this year is a neat antique coffee grinder that stills works great. So.....my question is: How long have coffee grinders been around...... and how did the Mountain Men grind their coffee? I've tried using my rifle butt, or hawk, or a rock and wooden bowl, but there must be a better way. Hope everyone had a great Christmas, and have a Happy New Year! Ymos, Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coffee grinders Date: 29 Dec 1999 11:08:18 -0800 SWcushing@aol.com wrote: > > Ho the list, > > Just when ya think all the dumb questions have been asked..... Steve, No dumb questions, just unasked questions. > > One of the items I got for being a good camper this year is a neat antique > coffee grinder that stills works great. So.....my question is: How long have > coffee grinders been around...... As long as there's been coffee to grind. and how did the Mountain Men grind their > coffee? Probably put roasted beans in a sack and pounded them with a hard object against another hard object or used an antique coffee grinder if someone hauled it to the Mountains. I've tried using my rifle butt, or hawk, or a rock and wooden bowl, > but there must be a better way. No better way unless you haul the grinder around with you. I personally don't think that was done but who knows. You want to haul it into camp, go ahead. Those that fresh roast their beans in camp just put them in a heavy sack and pound them with the side of their ax or between two rocks. Anything else requires you bring a special tool. Had a great Christmas and am looking forward to a great New Year in the Mountains! I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coffee grinders Date: 29 Dec 1999 12:26:06 -0800 It's been a long time since I've really tried to find good data on coffee during the fur trade, but it seems to me that when I was doing research in that or adjacent areas, water or tea was the most often mentioned non-alcoholic beverage. It made sense to me because tea is less bulky to pack, easier to prepare, and at that time, perhaps more readily available. Tea was also reputed to have some medicinal properties. Bill C -----Original Message----- >Ho the list, > >Just when ya think all the dumb questions have been asked..... > >One of the items I got for being a good camper this year is a neat antique >coffee grinder that stills works great. So.....my question is: How long have >coffee grinders been around...... and how did the Mountain Men grind their >coffee? I've tried using my rifle butt, or hawk, or a rock and wooden bowl, >but there must be a better way. > >Hope everyone had a great Christmas, and have a Happy New Year! > >Ymos, > >Steve > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Aphishamores ??? Date: 29 Dec 1999 11:37:54 -0800 George Noe wrote: >=20 > In Terry C. Johnston's book "Blood Song". book 8 of > the series "THE PLAINSMEN" > I have found , > Aphishamores, the leather and canvas covers for the > pack saddles. George, I've enjoyed Terry's books too but I think he got this one wrong. In Osborne Russell's "Journal of a Trapper" he mentions many times taking the apishamores (which is the more common spelling, BTW) and using them as a base for his bed. Canvas tarps or leather hides used to cover whatever was on a pack saddle would not offer much insulation from the cold ground. But what he did use offered that insulation. A saddle pad or saddle blanket from under his saddle would give reprieve from the hard ground and would give insulation from the cold below. I found this definition through the net. apishamore n : a saddle blanket made of buffalo hide=20 Source: WordNet =AE 1.6, = =A9 1997 Princeton University It would be safe to assume that such was made from a buffalo hide with the hair still on, otherwise it could hardly be called a blanket nor would it give any padding as saddle blankets of woven construction give. The definition for aparejos from the same source is as follows. ap=B7a=B7re=B7jo (p-rh, -r)=20 n., pl. ap=B7a=B7re=B7jos. Southwestern U.S.=20 A packsaddle made of a stuffed leather pad. [American Spanish from Spanish equipment, from aparejos, to prepare, from Vulgar Latin *appariculre; see apparel.] This definition implies that the packsaddle was made of stuffed leather pads rather than just being the pads under the saddle but in practical use both may be true. Aparejos do seem to be different from apishamores though in their construction though they both serve the same basic function.=20 > Aparejos, saddle pads used beneath the mules' > wooden pack frames. So that definition is close but a bit misleading. Hope this clears things up a bit. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MedicineWolfe@webtv.net Subject: MtMan-List: Char Cloth Date: 29 Dec 1999 14:44:02 -0500 (EST) Ho the list, some time ago ther was a thread about fire making and at one point some one gave instuctions on how to make char in an oven at home. I saved this message but at some point deleted it. Can anyone send this info. again? Contact off list if you want! Thanx in advance , Michael Anthony Wolfe Esq. http://community.webtv.net/MedicineWolfe/TheBuckskinnersCabin The road to progress is the path of fools!!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Char Cloth Date: 29 Dec 1999 14:30:54 -0600 Gives off alot of smoke, I sure wouldn't do it inside. I usually do mine on the "weber." (outside). ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rick_williams@byu.edu Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Fw: Address Request Date: 29 Dec 1999 22:40:27 +0000 Fred Gowans 133 E. 1600 N. Orem, UT 84057 (801)226-8741 Fred just retired from teaching this year. He had some heart trouble recently but seems to have recovered OK. Regards Rick Rick_Williams@byu.edu -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Ratcliff Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 1999 2:34 AM Cc: History List > > Will you please forward this request to the A.M.M. list and the Drudy history > list. > > I am trying to locate a telephone number or an address for Fred R. Gowans, > author of Rocky Mountain Rendezvous. > > Thanks for your help. > I may be reached at Wind1838@aol.com > Laura Glise ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rick_williams@byu.edu Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Aphishamores ??? Date: 29 Dec 1999 22:51:37 +0000 Regarding these...Dick Patten in his new BOBVIII article talks about using a buffalo apishemore nad found that they rubbed his horses and mules bad. Have others found this to be the case nad what do they do instead? Rick -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of George Noe Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 1999 4:04 AM In Terry C. Johnston's book "Blood Song". book 8 of the series "THE PLAINSMEN" I have found , Aphishamores, the leather and canvas covers for the pack saddles. Aparejos, saddle pads used beneath the mules' wooden pack frames. Just thought I wood pass this along as I raised the question earlier. grn ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Vic Barkin Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coffee and such Date: 29 Dec 1999 15:48:59 -0700 Ho Boys! Just have to chime in on the current thread on account of the fact that way back when, I did some research on coffee during the fur trade. here's what I've got... The standard coffee of the fur trade from 1800 to 1840 was green Rio. Rio was a designation for any Brazilian coffee imported from Rio de Janerio, and green meant it simply wasn't roasted. Very little roasting was done commercially at that time. (Today, Oro is common at stores) Even in cities, restaurants and individuals did the roasting just before use to preserve the flavor. Within decades of the American Revolution. coffee became a major trade item on the frontier, along with gunpowder, lead, sugar, tobacco and whiskey. Jim Beckwourth (Beckwith) described the first Rendezvous in 1825: "On arriving at the rendezvous we found the main body of the Salt Lake party already there with the whole of their effects. The General (Ashley) would open none of his goods, except tobacco until all had arrived, as he wished to make an equal distribution; for goods were then scarce in the mountains and hard to obtain. When all had come in, he opened his goods, and there was a general jubilee among all at the rendezvous. We constituted quite a little town, numbering at least eight hundred souls, of whom one half were women and children. There were some among us who had not seen any groceries such as coffee, sugar & c. for several months." In 1832 coffee and sugar found their way into the standard US Army ration. This did not come about because of congressional action, but was ordered by President Andrew Jackson, who was upset by the inability of congress to act on the matter. Although out of the fur trade period, This excerpt from a Civil War diary by William Forse Scott of the Fourth Iwoa Veteran Volunteers is appropriate enough: "If there had been reverence enough for a new religion, it's gods would have been fire and coffee. For next to fire, the one thing indespensible to the soldiers was coffee. There must have been very many, who when they enlisted were not in the habit of drinking it or drank very little; but camp life soon made it a neccessity to all. The active campaigner was sure to take it as often as he could get it; no other article of food or drink could approach it in value in the estimation of a man who had to march or work by day or watch by night. Tea was part of the army ration, but there was little demand for it, and the commissarys in the field were seldom provided with it. Fortunately, as coffee in the berries could not be easily adulterated, and it's bulk was comparitively not great, the army nearly always had it in fair quality and sufficient quality. BTW the first vaccum packed- groung roast was introduced by Hills Bros in 1900. And as for grinders, forts and military outposts usually had them, but no documentation I have seen places them in the field during the RM fur trade. Barkin Dawg- Y1.83 ready! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Anne MacDonnald Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit fur Date: 30 Dec 1999 18:49:13 -0500 Thanks all I forwarded everything over to the MiddleBridge, the list for the Mid Realm. anne Bill Cunningham wrote: > I don't have it, and don't have a way of getting it. He may be in the phone > book: Glen Wood is Tree's other name. Or there may be someone out there > reading this who can furnish it. I did send the number of Zack White on > another missive. > -----Original Message----- > From: Anne MacDonnald > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Date: Tuesday, December 28, 1999 7:53 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit fur > > >can you scare it up... i would greatly appreciate it. thanks anne > > > >Bill Cunningham wrote: > > > >> Someone else who has lots of rabbit furs for sale is Tree (AMM) down in > >> Wichita Falls TX. I don't have his phone or address handy, but he usually > >> has a ton or so of the things on hand and will ship. > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Anne MacDonnald > >> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >> Date: Tuesday, December 28, 1999 7:28 PM > >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: rabbit fur > >> > >> >Hi Cap, he is in the wilds of Ohio I think, some horridly cold place > like > >> >that. Thought to dig up some of my buckskinning url's but not sure > >> >exactly where to send him... at this point all I know is that he needs > the > >> >stuff asap. Some sort of Valentine Day project. > >> >thanks in advance... > >> > > >> >R Lahti wrote: > >> > > >> >> Anne MacDonnald wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > hi all; > >> >> > Not to change the subject or anything... > >> >> > >> >> Anne, > >> >> > >> >> Yea sure. Where is your friend located? It may be just as easy to > >> >> put him onto a Leather House like Spokane Leather, Oregon Leather, > >> >> Moscow Hide and Fur, etc. I remain.... > >> >> > >> >> YMOS > >> >> Capt. Lahti' > >> >> > >> >> ---------------------- > >> >> hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >> > > >> > > >> >---------------------- > >> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >> > >> ---------------------- > >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Dearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: dead horse gun discussion Date: 30 Dec 1999 00:37:25 GMT >david and all---look at canada as we speak---nuff said dead horse---not a >subject for the amm chat--- > Don't Forget England, and Australia. The only firearms allowed in private hands in England are muzzleloaders, and those could go at any time. My one last comment to David, please read the Federalist Papers to find out what the founders though about the right to bear arms, and research what really happened in England, Canada, Australia, and California. Those things can happen here, as well, unless we stand up for our rights. We now return to our regularly scheduled historical discussions. ;-) J.D. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne & Terri" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help for Sheepskins? also an off-topic idea Date: 29 Dec 1999 16:58:24 -0800 If you are looking for a good water proofing for moc's Try: 1/3 neats foot oil 1/3 bees wax 1/3 tallow (beef fat rendering) Mix in a jar while in a liquid state, let set up hard and then rub in slowly, will keep them little ole moc's dry except around the seams. It has helped preserve mine to it seems. About the NRA, sound like a good idea. My only beef with the NRA is that once you become a member they want you to donate some change every time you turn around. I guess it costs a lot of funds to battle for our god given rights. A brother, Wayne ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne & Terri" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Help for Sheepskins? also an off-topic idea Date: 29 Dec 1999 16:58:24 -0800 If you are looking for a good water proofing for moc's Try: 1/3 neats foot oil 1/3 bees wax 1/3 tallow (beef fat rendering) Mix in a jar while in a liquid state, let set up hard and then rub in slowly, will keep them little ole moc's dry except around the seams. It has helped preserve mine to it seems. About the NRA, sound like a good idea. My only beef with the NRA is that once you become a member they want you to donate some change every time you turn around. I guess it costs a lot of funds to battle for our god given rights. A brother, Wayne ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne & Terri" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A & E and George Washington--alertonly--notfordiscussion Date: 29 Dec 1999 17:02:14 -0800 Thanks for the clarification, but I still have fools that come out in my neck of the woods and shoot the things in automatic mode and the sheriff up here don't want to know about it. Wayne ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne & Terri" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: dead horse gun discussion Date: 29 Dec 1999 17:20:11 -0800 true Wayne ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wayne & Terri" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Char Cloth Date: 29 Dec 1999 17:25:12 -0800 you said make char in a oven. I would think that could be a bit unsafe. I would say maybe in the wood stove but not in an oven. If you need to know how to do it in a wood stove let me know and I will send you how I do it. Wayne ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Vic Barkin Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coffee and such Date: 29 Dec 1999 18:27:53 -0700 Typo corrected....always had it in fair quality and sufficient quantity. Vic Nathan Barkin CGCM Printing and Reproduction Services Manager Northern Arizona University Office of Public Affairs and Marketing Creative Communications Department Box 4101, Flagstaff, Az 86011 ph. 520-523-6160 fax 520 523-5060 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tetontodd@juno.com Subject: MtMan-List: Book of Buckskinning VIII Date: 29 Dec 1999 18:48:48 -0700 Gentlemen, For the past couple of days I have been lazing around the house reading the new BofB VIII. (between chores) I must say that I think it is the best one so far. At least four of the chapters are written by fellow AMM members. That speaks to the quality of the AMM. I guess my favorite chapter is done by Rex Norman on Mountaineer Gear. What a thoroughly excellent article. With writings this and those chapters by Clay Landry, Shawn Webster, Dick Patton, Allen Chronister and the others, the info is there for folks just starting out to do it right from the get go. I was initially struck by how much of the book deals with things "Western" rather than what seems like has been the predominantly "Eastern" emphasis. Maybe the tide has begun to change and the "Mountaineer" is becoming more in vogue. If you haven't been collecting the whole series of Book of Buckskinning, I think this latest edition is WELL worth your dollars. H'yars to the new century! "Teton" Todd D. Glover Poison River Party Pilgrim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Douglas Hepner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A & E and George Washington--alert only--not fordiscussion Date: 29 Dec 1999 19:50:19 -0600 I think we have been infiltrated!? What's up with this? "Dull Hawk" ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 1999 6:22 PM fordiscussion > At 1:46 PM -0600 12/28/99, Texan wrote: > >Lockyer's predeccessor, Dan Hungren, let people who owned the guns before > >June register them without prosecution or confiscation after the > >1992 deadline. > > Don't know who's writing for the "Journal of The Texas State Rifle > Association," but I wonder about the accuracy of the article in > general when the names of the two principal individuals (California > state attorney generals) are incorrect throughout. It's Bill > Lockyear, and Dan Lundgren. But anyway, I don't see the point. > Nothing in that article suggests that California is trying to > universally disarm the state's legal gun owners. > > >Any involvement in gun registration, monitering, requirments testing, > >training, etc., > >is NOT a legitimate function of government as defined by our forefathers > >who wrote the Constitution. > > If you could find one thing in the Constitution that forbid such > legislation, I might agree with you. As it was intended, the > Constitution is a living document which made provisions for > successive generations to modify and interpret (hence *amendments,* > including the 2nd). Since these powers are not prohibited in the > Constitution, and since the Federal government is not delegated that > power by the Constitution, presumably they are powers reserved by the > States themselves. Nothing in the California state constitution > forbids the legislature from passing gun control legislation. > > >What is happening in California is evidence > >of what is called encroachment, which has as its eventual goal the law > >abiding > >citizen being completely disarmed. > > With all due respect, I think that is absurd. The simple fact is, > most citizens just do not feel it's necessary that everyone have > access to serious military hardware. > > >There is a saying: As California goes, so goes the rest of the > >nation. Not in this case. I dare say that this could not happen > >in Texas. > > What could not happen in Texas? > > David > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Texan" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Book of Buckskinning VIII Date: 29 Dec 1999 20:15:02 -0600 Wouldn't it be nice to have a Buckskinning series for the Junior MM? Or the future JMM? Would take alot of work!! Mountain Woman -----Original Message----- >Gentlemen, > >For the past couple of days I have been lazing around the house reading >the new BofB VIII. (between chores) I must say that I think it is the >best one so far. At least four of the chapters are written by fellow AMM >members. That speaks to the quality of the AMM. I guess my favorite >chapter is done by Rex Norman on Mountaineer Gear. What a thoroughly >excellent article. With writings this and those chapters by Clay Landry, >Shawn Webster, Dick Patton, Allen Chronister and the others, the info is >there for folks just starting out to do it right from the get go. > >I was initially struck by how much of the book deals with things >"Western" rather than what seems like has been the predominantly >"Eastern" emphasis. Maybe the tide has begun to change and the >"Mountaineer" is becoming more in vogue. > >If you haven't been collecting the whole series of Book of Buckskinning, >I think this latest edition is WELL worth your dollars. > >H'yars to the new century! > >"Teton" Todd D. Glover >Poison River Party Pilgrim > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Texan" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Book of Buckskinning VIII Date: 29 Dec 1999 20:20:42 -0600 Sorry folks, this was to be a private message on an idea that I've had about a program for young boys who could be taught the MM skills-I call it the Junior Mountain Men. Texan -----Original Message----- >Wouldn't it be nice to have a Buckskinning series for >the Junior MM? Or the future JMM? Would take >alot of work!! > >Mountain Woman >-----Original Message----- >From: tetontodd@juno.com >To: hist_text@xmission.com >Date: Wednesday, December 29, 1999 7:50 PM >Subject: MtMan-List: Book of Buckskinning VIII > > >>Gentlemen, >> >>For the past couple of days I have been lazing around the house reading >>the new BofB VIII. (between chores) I must say that I think it is the >>best one so far. At least four of the chapters are written by fellow AMM >>members. That speaks to the quality of the AMM. I guess my favorite >>chapter is done by Rex Norman on Mountaineer Gear. What a thoroughly >>excellent article. With writings this and those chapters by Clay Landry, >>Shawn Webster, Dick Patton, Allen Chronister and the others, the info is >>there for folks just starting out to do it right from the get go. >> >>I was initially struck by how much of the book deals with things >>"Western" rather than what seems like has been the predominantly >>"Eastern" emphasis. Maybe the tide has begun to change and the >>"Mountaineer" is becoming more in vogue. >> >>If you haven't been collecting the whole series of Book of Buckskinning, >>I think this latest edition is WELL worth your dollars. >> >>H'yars to the new century! >> >>"Teton" Todd D. Glover >>Poison River Party Pilgrim >> >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Woodbury Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: dead horse gun discussion Date: 29 Dec 1999 18:39:55 -0800 At 12:37 AM +0000 12/30/99, John Dearing wrote: >My one last comment to David, please read the Federalist Papers to >find out what the founders though about the right to bear arms, >and research what really happened in England, Canada, Australia, and >California. Those things can happen here, as well, unless we stand >up for our rights. John, Thanks for keeping it cordial. I won't drag it out any more, either, except to respond to pointed messages referring directly to something I posted. I refer to the Federalist Papers sometimes with regard to other issues (in Civil War discussions). They are useful to get at the original intent, perhaps, but remain essentially editorials. I think the Justices of the Supreme Court consider these arguments as well, and yet they keep arriving at the same conclusions, e.g., Cruikshank v. U.S. 1876, "The right of bearing arms for a lawful purpose is not a right granted by the constitution, nor is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence"; or 1939 U.S. v. Miller, ". . .the 2nd amendment does not grant the right to bear arms that do not have some reasonable relationship to the preservation and efficiency of a well regulated militia". If it is, as some here suggest, strictly a literal translation about people having the uninhibited right to bear arms, then one must argue that there is a right to bear *all* arms, from bazookas to portable missile launchers with tactical nuclear warheads -- these are all "arms" in the strictest sense. Most reasonable people, I think, agree that not everyone should have the uninhibited right to bear the kinds of arms I just mentioned. If one agrees to restricting *these* arms, then it's only a question of how much to restrict arms ownership. Since the Constitution left this question open, it is up to Congress or state legislatures (our elected representatives) to determine. David ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coffee grinders Date: 29 Dec 1999 18:47:36 -0800 On Wed, 29 December 1999, Bill Cunningham wrote: > It's been a long time since I've really tried to find good data on coffee > during the fur trade, but it seems to me that when I was doing research in > that or adjacent areas, water or tea was the most often mentioned > non-alcoholic beverage. It made sense to me because tea is less bulky to > pack, easier to prepare, and at that time, perhaps more readily available. > Tea was also reputed to have some medicinal properties. > Bill C ___________________________________________ Bill, As you say tea was very popular, I was searching for information about “Ceylon Tea” as I found a wooden box at an estate sale with these words on it and a date of 1837, here’s what I found for the”Tea Drinkers”, this is just a short history on one type. Starting from the 16th century,establishment of plantations of export crops like cinnamon, later also coffee and coconut, were encouraged by the colonial governments in Sri Lanka and started to suppress the traditional system of peasant agriculture. The tropical island of Sri Lanka southeast of the Indian subcontinent offers ideal climatic conditions for tea (Ceylon) and rice cultivation which led to a history of highly developed hydraulic civilizations in the dry zone lowlands. The wet zone and highlands in the southwest constitute the core area of plantation agriculture because of environmental conditions suitable to support a variety of perennial commercial crops. After 1870 tea was established to replace coffee which succumbed to a virulent fungus. Ceylon tea has been acclaimed as the best tea in the world for over several centuries. The Sri Lankan climate varies tremendously from the central highlands to the southern plains. These varying climatic conditions impart distinct flavors and aromas on our teas. Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html _________________________________ Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coffee and such Date: 29 Dec 1999 18:51:56 -0800 On Wed, 29 December 1999, Vic Barkin wrote: > Just have to chime in on the current thread on account of the fact that way > back when, I did some research on coffee during the fur trade. here's what > I've got... > > The standard coffee of the fur trade from 1800 to 1840 was green Rio. Rio > was a designation for any Brazilian coffee imported from Rio de Janerio, > and green meant it simply wasn't roasted. Very little roasting was done > commercially at that time. (Today, Oro is common at stores) > > Even in cities, restaurants and individuals did the roasting just before > use to preserve the flavor. > > Within decades of the American Revolution. coffee became a major trade item > on the frontier, along with gunpowder, lead, sugar, tobacco and whiskey. > > Jim Beckwourth (Beckwith) described the first Rendezvous in 1825: "On > arriving at the rendezvous we found the main body of the Salt Lake party > already there with the whole of their effects. The General (Ashley) would > open none of his goods, except tobacco until all had arrived, as he wished > to make an equal distribution; for goods were then scarce in the mountains > and hard to obtain. When all had come in, he opened his goods, and there > was a general jubilee among all at the rendezvous. We constituted quite a > little town, numbering at least eight hundred souls, of whom one half were > women and children. There were some among us who had not seen any groceries > such as coffee, sugar & c. for several months." > > In 1832 coffee and sugar found their way into the standard US Army ration. > This did not come about because of congressional action, but was ordered by > President Andrew Jackson, who was upset by the inability of congress to act > on the matter. > > Although out of the fur trade period, This excerpt from a Civil War diary > by William Forse Scott of the Fourth Iwoa Veteran Volunteers is appropriate > enough: > > "If there had been reverence enough for a new religion, it's gods would > have been fire and coffee. For next to fire, the one thing indespensible to > the soldiers was coffee. There must have been very many, who when they > enlisted were not in the habit of drinking it or drank very little; but > camp life soon made it a neccessity to all. The active campaigner was sure > to take it as often as he could get it; no other article of food or drink > could approach it in value in the estimation of a man who had to march or > work by day or watch by night. Tea was part of the army ration, but there > was little demand for it, and the commissarys in the field were seldom > provided with it. Fortunately, as coffee in the berries could not be easily > adulterated, and it's bulk was comparitively not great, the army nearly > always had it in fair quality and sufficient quality. > > BTW the first vaccum packed- groung roast was introduced by Hills Bros in 1900. > > And as for grinders, forts and military outposts usually had them, but no > documentation I have seen places them in the field during the RM fur trade. > > Barkin Dawg- Y1.83 ready! __________________________________________ Vic, A little history found on the internet about coffee; A sheep herder named Kaldi started it all in 850 AD. He wanted to know what could be responsible for the "queer antics of his flock." Fearing his sheep possessed, Kaldi paid close observation from high on the mountain and watched as his herd nibbled red berries from the branch of a strange tree. Upon closer inspection he discovered the sheep eating berries from a new leaf. When he sampled the berry himself, he felt a surge of exhilaration and rushed to tell the local imam. That night the two shared a concoction made of the berries, pranced around, and generally got pretty tanked on caffeine. When they finally dozed off, Mohammed appeared to the imam and said the berries enhanced wakefulness and wakefulness promoted prayer. Prayer, counseled Mohammed, was better than sleep. Sooner than you can say percolate, the imam and his monastery became famous throughout Arabia for the spirited praying of its coffee-drinking brethren. Soon others in the old world were clamoring for the newly discovered bean. Although legend credits Kaldi with the find, some suspect that coffee was around long before him. But no one bothered to give it a proper noun. Among other tales of coffee lore, the Bible relates that Abigail brought to David "five measures of parched corn," which some believe to be coffee. Hippocrates is said to have collected all the herbs of his time and coffee, under another name perhaps, was included in this collection. The "black broth" of the Lacedaemonians was a strong, well-boiled brew. Whatever its origins, the black broth is now ingested by over a third of the world's population and, centuries later, continues to promote queer antics. Source where found at: http://cogsum.com/coffee6.html Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html _________________________________ Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Woodbury Subject: MtMan-List: infiltrated... Date: 29 Dec 1999 19:34:06 -0800 At 7:50 PM -0600 12/29/99, Douglas Hepner wrote: >I think we have been infiltrated!? What's up with this? > >"Dull Hawk" Sorry, didn't see the "Lemmings Only" sign when I joined the list. Can't have someone viewing a constitutional amendment differently than this august group of mountain man enthusiasts (ironically, this same list touts the independent-minded spirit of those early adventurers). Here's what's up, Mr. Hawk. I have been fascinated with mountain men and the fur trade era for as long as I can remember, read everything I can on the subject, travel in their footsteps when possible -- going to the mountains often to capture some of that spirit. I'm a card-carrying member of the Jed Smith Society, and a devotee of the Sierra Nevada. I monitor this list because it's the only one I could find that treats the subject, at least in part, though I have no interest, personally, in trying to authentically recreate the mountain man's equipment or manner of dress. And, *incidentally*, I don't believe the Constitution guarantees everyone the unrestricted right to possess any arms they can lay their hands on. When someone here started this discussion, phrasing the post as if we are all of like mind on the subject of gun control, I responded to it with my opinion., That's what's up with this. David ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Vic Barkin Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coffee and such Date: 29 Dec 1999 21:26:45 -0700 Right on the mark buck, I have read that story, don't know what I'd do without them beans, "queer antics" or not! B Dawg Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin AMM #1537 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: MtMan-List: gun control Date: 29 Dec 1999 21:31:53 -0700 Hello the list, Guess I'll throw my 2 cents in on this here "gun control" thing. And yes, I know gun control is being able to hit your target!!! First. From the Preamble of the US Constitution. "We the people of the United States....." From the 1st Amendment; ....or the right of the people peaceably to assemble..... From the 2nd Amendment;.... the right of the people to keep and bear arms.... From the 4th Amendment; ....The right of the people to be secure in their persons.... From the 10th Amendment; ...or to the people. Why would "the people" mean different things in the second amendment, but none of the others? The answer is obvious, the people, _means_ the people. As to the "why would anyone need a machine gun", or why would anyone "need a magazine that holds more that X number of rounds? Here's the deal, don't try to determine MY needs. Why do you need a Corvette when the speed limit is 75 max in the US? Why do you need more that 2 kids? It comes down to this little thing called freedom of choice and the corresponding responsibility. Take a look at the places in the US with the strictest gun control laws, they also are the places with the highest crime rates. Go figure..... Is crime worse now than it was in the 50's or even 60's? Most folks would say yes, and the media and others would say that it's because of the easy availability of guns. Well, for those that don't recall, prior to the 1968 gun control act, you could (read that anyone could) order guns through the mail. So much for the easy availablility of guns crap. With all the federal laws enacted, what is the prosecution rate for offenders. Sickeningly low. These law only pertain to the good guys. If we can't keep tons of methamphetimine, cocaine and pot from coming across our borders, what makes us think we'll keep out a 7 pound AK-47? One thing Dave had to say is right on the money. That is education is critical. Popular notions are that guns are inherently evil. Take someone out and let them shoot. You'll change their mind about guns for the positive. Also another point that I got from Dave, WE will be the ones to see that gun ownership and use is "allowed" in the future. Write your representatives and anyone else. Even if they don't listen, they know that they don't have a blank check on this question. This can go on and on, but that's about all I've gotta say. And for interest sake, I'm a full time law enforcement officer, and have owned machine guns of my own, and thanks to your tax dollars (when I worked for the government) shot LOTS of rounds from a very wide assortment of machine guns. It ain't the talking', it's the doin' Allen Hall in Fort Hall country a small part of free America Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MedicineWolfe@webtv.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Char Cloth Date: 29 Dec 1999 23:38:49 -0500 (EST) My mistake! I thought someone had stated a way to make char in a regular oven. I'll just have to break out the grill(the wife hates its when I dig fire pits in the back yard!!!)and do it the old fashion way! Sorry to take up the lists time. Thanx to all, M.W ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Char Cloth Date: 29 Dec 1999 21:13:02 -0800 MedicineWolfe@webtv.net wrote: > > My mistake! I thought someone had stated a way to make char in a regular > oven. I'll just have to break out the grill(the wife hates its when I > dig fire pits in the back yard!!!)and do it the old fashion way! Sorry > to take up the lists time. Medicine Wolf, If you have a propane torch you won't need to break out the grill. Still need to do it outside though. All you need to do is heat the proposed char material in a tight metal container until you vaporize all the volatile out of it. Usually just getting the bottom of a small can red hot and holding it at that temp for a few minutes will do the trick. Problem is it gives off a bit of smoke. If you have a good exhaust fan in the kitchen, I guess you could do it on the stove top with a burner on high. Hope that gives you some ideas. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: infiltrated... Date: 29 Dec 1999 21:56:30 -0800 David Woodbury wrote: > > At 7:50 PM -0600 12/29/99, Douglas Hepner wrote: > >I think we have been infiltrated!? What's up with this? > > > >"Dull Hawk" > > Sorry, didn't see the "Lemmings Only" sign when I joined the list. Dave, No need to apologize to me. Your certainly entitled to your considered opinion and welcome to share it with grace and aplomb which you did under fire. I don't happen to agree with you though. I suppose I can't argue with what you reported as to how the courts have ruled but I think they are wrong too. That is the problem we face today. Convincing those who make law and enforce law that the Constitution should mean what it says. If read in the context of the age it was written in, there was no organized militia but rather all able bodied men between a certain age were considered members by dictate and default. (A formal militia was not formed for several years after the Constitution was ratified.) They were probably encouraged to maintain the equivalent of the contemporary military arm of the day ready for use. That is why, I think one can find so many quotes by leading figures of the day such as Jefferson saying that free men should never be denied their "Arms". Should the able bodied citizen of today be made to hold ready with outdated weapons of a bygone era? The Federalist papers may be editorials but they were written by the same men who framed the Constitution. Those men, almost to a man, agreed that an unarmed citizenry was to be avoided at all cost to ensure that the country would not return to anything like a monarchy. It is also known that the various amendments were originally to be excluded because it was felt that these things should go without saying. But they were enumerated expressly for the propose of ensuring that those particular freedoms would not be abridged. It has been an up hill fight every since. I can see the attractiveness of the argument that nobody needs this or that type weapon and the attractiveness of legislating restrictions on firearms ownership to solve societal problems but what I don't understand is why the media and academia scream bloody murder when the First Amendment comes under fire with any suggestion of censorship but are silent ( for the most part) when an amendment like the 2nd is attacked through restrictions on firearms ownership by even citizens of good moral character. Where does accountability and responsibility get a chance to play. Your point about banning such things as military weapons of explosive or mass destructive potential is well taken. It is hard to argue with that type of restriction and even the laws that restrict ownership of full auto weapons is not that unreasonable. But in a country where individual freedom is supposed to be held so high, I fail to see the wisdom in letting even one freedom be slowly eaten away. It is not too far fetched to imagine that a gutted 2nd Amendment won't lead to a gutted 1st or 3rd or 4th or etc. Which of the Amendments do you hold most dear? The 1st? The 5th? Do you want your right to speak freely abridged for the common good? Who do you want responsible for deciding that what you say or want to say is harmful and punishable by imprisonment? I respectfully submit to you sir that you can not have it both ways. It is either all, or soon enough nothing. So yes you are free to view a Constitutional Amendment differently than this or any august group whether they be Mountain Men or Whatever's. I hope that your willingness to water down the right to keep and bare arms will not some day be an action that you will deeply regret. A Happy and Prosperous New Year to you sir, I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Char Cloth Date: 29 Dec 1999 22:18:11 -0800 DON"T DO IT (CHAR) IN THE HOUSE............ I did the first time, on the stove....exhaust fan going full tilt, etc.... wife still came unglued. It raises quite a stink. I happen to have a modern back packing stove (compressed gas fuel), it makes a wonderful char stove, out in the backyard. I found that the propane grill wasted alot of fuel to get the can hot enough to char. A small hole in the dirt, filled with briquetts would do the trick. My wood stove works well too. I have a small tin, overlapping type lid, can with a nail hole in the top. I've been using cotton webbing for char lately. Looks like oil lamp wick, only thicker, wider, etc... Makes a fairly durable char, which won't turn to coal dust in your fire making kit. I ordered mine for shoulder strap material originally. Made some scraps into char, been using it ever since. I also like to carry rotten rope, tow and 'fat wood' in my kit. Fat wood is really pitchy pine, etc...once it catches flame, it burns like a torch...good for damp weather fire making. I regularly hang short pieces of rope on fence, etc..... After a long while those pieces get sunburned, oxidized, etc... and work well in fire kit . (just make sure you aren't using rope which has been treated with fire retardent. It is good to carry a small bag full of these flammable goodies in one's bedroll ( deep in so can't get wet-no matter what) for emergency, bad weather fire making. oh yeah.....Happy New Year...hope to share a fire with each and every one of you miscreants before too long...... hardtack Your Second Amendment Rights protect ALL of your other Rights, Don't give up your Rights ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: MtMan-List: off topic Date: 30 Dec 1999 01:44:47 -0800 the two disc jockeys were laughing at a news story they told this morn. "I failed to see the humor". Sat nite in Sweden a mans cabin caught fire and burnt to the ground. They later found the man about 2 miles from his cabin on his snowmobile naked and dead. Just failed to see the humor in this. John (BIG JOHN) Hunt Longhunter Mountainman southwest Ohio ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MedicineWolfe@webtv.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Char Cloth Date: 30 Dec 1999 02:17:01 -0500 (EST) My wife thanks you!!! M.W http://community.webtv.net/MedicineWolfe/TheBuckskinnersCabin The road to progress is the path of fools!!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MedicineWolfe@webtv.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Char Cloth Date: 30 Dec 1999 01:03:00 -0500 (EST) Thanx for the ideas Capt.! Yours Truely, Michael A.Wolfe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Woodbury Subject: Re: MtMan-List: infiltrated... Date: 30 Dec 1999 01:23:21 -0800 =============== "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." =============== Capt. Lahti, That was an outstanding post. Thanks for taking the time to articulate your thoughts. I can appreciate the argument that an erosion of any right can rarely be reversed, and, the precedent established, almost certainly ensures more erosion in the future. My problem is that I don't believe the absolute right existed in the first place. I'll address a few points: >If read in the context of the age it was written in, there was no organized >militia but rather all able bodied men between a certain age were >considered members by dictate and default. (A formal militia was not >formed for several years after the Constitution was ratified.) They included the word "militia" in the 2nd Amendment as a specific reference to *something* that already existed. Yes, the "people" of a free state would be called upon to constitute that militia, and as the amendment is phrased, one can reasonably (naturally) interpret it with the emphasis on the leading clause -- "well regulated militia" -- and that the right of the people to bear arms is in the context of that militia. >Should the able >bodied citizen of today be made to hold ready with outdated weapons of a >bygone era? Isn't it true that citizens *already* dramatically lag behind state-of-the-art military hardware. If the idea is to be on an even footing in the event of a war against an oppressive government, then by that amendment we must allow anyone who can afford it to arm themselves with any arms available on the world market (the logical extension). From your post, I see you aren't willing to go that far. >Your point about banning such things as military weapons of explosive >or mass destructive potential is well taken. It is hard to argue with >that type of restriction and even the laws that restrict ownership of >full auto weapons is not that unreasonable. If you grant *any* restriction, as it sounds you do, then you are already ceding the necessity to erode the right under discussion. Everything that follows is just mitigating the damage to that right. Perhaps we only disagree on the mitigation. >Which of the Amendments do you hold >most dear? The 1st? The 5th? Do you want your right to speak freely >abridged for the common good? I hold them all dear. And as I've said, I don't think gun control legislation to-date abridges any amendment. But it bears noting that an amendment is just that: an amendment. Several decades ago you might have posed the same question, but included Prohibition in your example (another amendment, since canceled out by yet one more amendment). At the time, some people regarded the Prohibition amendment as the most important of the bunch. >I respectfully submit to you sir that you can not have it both ways. It >is either all, or soon enough nothing. And yet, (in a quote above) you agree that something *less than all* is "not that unreasonable." David ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gun control Date: 30 Dec 1999 07:28:10 -0600 -----Original Message----- >Hello the list, >First. From the Preamble of the US Constitution. "We the people of the >United States....." >>From the 1st Amendment; ....or the right of the people peaceably to >assemble..... >>From the 2nd Amendment;.... the right of the people to keep and bear arms.... >>From the 4th Amendment; ....The right of the people to be secure in their >persons.... >>From the 10th Amendment; ...or to the people. > >Why would "the people" mean different things in the second amendment, but >none of the others? The answer is obvious, the people, _means_ the >people. Good observation Allen. I am curious as to how folks think they can re-interperet these simple words and attempt to give them another meaning all together. Some also talk of "court decisions" that uphold the argument that the 2nd amendements purpose isn't to provide us individuals the right to keep and bear arms. That is a bunch of bologna to. northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Char Cloth Date: 30 Dec 1999 08:09:55 -0600 As long as we're talking char, I was showing some people flint and steel firestarting with one of our club members kit, I had a piece of his char in my hand while I was showing how to strike. I felt my hand get warm, the char that was in my fist was going! I asked Dan what he used for char, he'd found some old (probably WWII) muslin cloth that a boy scout troop had for bandages and were going to throw out, he took it for patches and char. Jim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Dearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: infiltrated... Date: 30 Dec 1999 17:25:29 GMT >"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free >State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be >infringed." >=============== > Outstanding post, Captain Lahti, There is little I can add. However, I would like to clarify the distinction between the National Guard, and the militia. I would also like to reiterate that the Militia Act of 1792, which is still law, merely codified the traditional roll of the militia throughout history. The Militia Act of 1792 does define the militia as "all able bodied males between The ages of 17 and 65" and goes on to state that those people are REQUIRED BY LAW, current law, I might add, to provide themselves with arms and ammunition for the defense of this Nation. There were several layers of military readiness throughout formative years of this country, and beyond, into the very beginning of colonization of the "New World". First came the regular Army, raised, trained, equipped, and funded by the Crown. Next came the Provincial Troops, raised, trained, equipped, and funded by the various Provincial Assemblies for the defense of the Province. These troops could not be deployed outside the province without the express permission of the Governor and the Provincial Assemblies. Exactly as the National Guard is organized today. These troops were widely known as Provincial troops, though these Provincial military units referred to themselves by other names that distinguished them from other Provincial Troops, i.e. the Jersey Blues, the Virginia Regiment, etc. Next in order were the Independent Companies, roughly equating to the current Army Reserve. Often raised as Militia, and often required to provide their own weapons, equipment and clothing, they were placed on "establishment" as independent companies by the Governor General of the Colonies, bypassing the various Provincial Assemblies for permission to deploy those companies with the regular Army outside of the province in which they were raised. Rogers and Putnam's Rangers of the F&I period are the most notable examples of the establishment and use of these independent companies. Other Independent Companies were, raised, equipped, trained, funded, and "established" by the Governor General for specific campaigns, or for the duration of a specific conflict. On the bottom of the military hierarchy is the Militia, organized by County Lieutenants appointed by the Provincial Military Commanders, or more often raised by local "officials" to repel incursions into specific areas, or to patrol the border areas scouting for marauding savages. They were required to provide their own weapons, ammunition, clothing and equipment, and often served without pay. These were the original minutemen, ready on a minute's notice to form and repel invaders, or man the fortifications on the exposed frontier. We, traditionally, and by law, are that Militia, and by law, we are required to provide ourselves with weapons and ammunition to defend this Nation from within, as well as from without. I ask you, Mr. Woodbury, If Congress has the power to restrict ownership of firearms, does Congress also have the power to restrict the freedom of speech, press, and the right to vote? It would seem that if our elected officials have that power, they can do whatever they please without the threat of a citizens uprising to "put things aright", as it were. Now, I'm not advocating that we over throw this government, however, I do believe that the citizens of this Nation should retain the means to do so, just to keep our elected officials honest…or as honest as possible. Yes Mr. Woodbury, we do agree on several important facets of this issue, the problem arises as to where the line is drawn. I and many on this list believe the restrictions are bordering on oppressive, and will continue to become more oppressive unless we stand firm. I fear, Mr. Woodbury, that the lemmings you follow will lead you, and our freedoms into the sea of oblivion. I am, And Shall Remain… John Dearing ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Dearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic Date: 30 Dec 1999 17:30:59 GMT >the two disc jockeys were laughing at a news story they told this morn. "I >failed to see the humor". Sat nite in Sweden a mans cabin caught fire and >burnt to the ground. They later found the man about 2 miles from his cabin >on his snowmobile naked and dead. Just failed to see the humor in this. > Well, it's like I've always said, "build a man a fire and you warm him for a day, set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life." Yes, I have a sick sense of humor. ;-) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Dearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Char Cloth Date: 30 Dec 1999 17:43:33 GMT I've been using >cotton webbing for char lately. Looks like oil lamp wick, only thicker, >wider, etc... Makes a fairly durable char, which won't turn to coal >dust in your fire making kit. I prefer bluejean material. It's thick enough to provide a good hot coal, cheap and readily available. I recently bought a pair of girls 100% cotton jeans at a yard sale for a quarter that made more char than I will use in the next year. Tear 'em into strips 2 or 3 inches wide and and cut several strips into squares at one time, or loosely roll the strips and throw them into the char can. Tear off as much char as you need for that particular fire. Good to use when your tender is damp, or otherwise not as good as it could be. I save one part of those girls jeans for a special purpose...but I ain't tellin'.;-) J.D. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Subject: MtMan-List: Personal Safety & Security [OFF TOPIC] Date: 30 Dec 1999 10:03:59 -0800 ------- Start of forwarded message ------- We received this information this morning, mostly common sense that we should all remember, and practice, so consider it a reminder to be alert this weekend or any weekend, as we should anytime we're out of our normal surroundings. Thanks. Buck _________________________________________________ While this is a special weekend, it is really no different than any other large celebration that you or your family might participate in. Based on that premise the following offers a few ideas to take forth with you on the Y2K weekend and any other special event or celebration you may attend. Remember: The first thing to remember is that your personal safety at work, at home, at a celebration, is first and foremost your responsibility. Even if you can't control the external environment around you, you can still take steps to avoid becoming a victim. On the streets: There will be certain locations in major metropolitan areas that will draw large crowds of people celebrating the New Year. These locations will not only attract people celebrating but also those who would take advantage of large crowds to commit crimes against individuals and businesses. The crimes can range from picking a pocket to looting. So, what can you do to avoid falling prey to these individuals? Know what your community is doing about restricting on street parking near the event you plan to attend. If parking is restricted check with local parking lots to ensure they will be open to the public. Park as near as you can to the event or building you are going to. Park in well lit areas if it is dark when you arrive or when you plan to return to your car. Avoid parking near large vehicles (Vans. Etc.), or other objects which can limit your visibility. Before exiting the vehicle, know what is going on outside. Your doors should still be locked. Check your side view mirrors and do a 360 degree look around the vehicle. Trust your instincts! If you are uncomfortable do not get out, leave and find another parking place. Be aware of what you are leaving in your vehicle. Don't leave items of value in view, such as CD's, cassettes and packages you are planning to return afterChristmas. They are attractive to potential thieves and should be locked in the trunk. Once you're out of the vehicle walk confidently at a steady pace with your head up. Be alert to activity in the area. Look at individuals near you. You do not have to look them in the eye, but be able to identify them. This can be a deterrent to some potential perpetrators. Distracted or tentative pedestrians spell victim. Avoid using alleys and other more isolated routes to your destination. It may take a little longer to walk the main streets but crime is less likely to occur in these areas. When returning to your vehicle have your keys in hand. Approach the car from an angle looking underneath and around it. Before opening the door check the floor in the front and rear seat areas. Once in the car, lock the door before putting on your seat belt. Stick to main streets avoiding less traveled routes to and from home. Plan on possible delays due to impromptu street parties or unplanned street closures. Check the radio for local information prior to leaving home and frequently while traveling to your destination. If possible, have your cellular telephone with you. Plan alternate routes to your destination just in case you need them. If you determine you are being followed, don't drive home. There will more police officers on duty than usual. Look for an officer directing traffic or a patrol car, then flash your lights at them. If you cannot locate one go to the nearest police or fire station and honk your horn. If that is not possible, drive to an open gas station or other business where you can safely call the police. Don't leave your car unless you know you can get inside the building safely. Try to get the license number and description of the car following you. Again, if possible, have a cellular phone in your car to use in emergency situations. If possible, use an alternate source of transportation such as a bus or taxicab. Plan on early arrival and late departure. Check out what the hours of operation will be for businesses such as restaurants and other establishments near the event. If crowd control becomes a problem you may want to seek out one of these locations to wait it out. Additionally, when you are in large crowds like the ones you may encounter on New Years Eve, consider the following: It is best to have a minimum amount of valuables on your person in a large crowd. Place your cash in a front pocket. Women should avoid carrying a purse that does not have a strap to hold onto. If possible, they should not carry a purse. Don't flash large amounts of money in public places. Don't wear necklaces and chains that can be yanked off you. Be alert to a changing atmosphere in the crowd. A large group of people in a confined space can turn from a celebrating group to an angry bunch of people, to a mob in a relatively short period of time. This can happen for a number of reasons; Law Enforcement may have imposed some unwanted restriction; panic; a fight between individuals or gang members; or actions by someone with an agenda to create an opportunity for easy theft. Whatever the reason, you should position yourself for a quick exit from the area. Avoid locations in the path of the crowd. People may panic and you could be trampled or mistaken for a troublemaker by police. Avoid locations near locked doorways or building walls that a swelling crowd could trap you against. Where should you be when faced with a crowd? Locate yourself near intersections or exits that allow you the opportunity to back away quickly and easily. This is not the time to be in the middle of a large crowd. Comply with instructions given by Law Enforcement Officers conducting crowd control. Some people think because they are not doing anything wrong they don't have to move when police officers direct them to do so. This is a big mistake. Officers will not have time to determine who is an observer and who is not. (FOLLOW THE LAWFUL DIRECTIONS GIVEN TO YOU BY LAW ENFORCEMENT IN THIS SITUATION). Arrange for a meeting place in the event that you are separated from your party. At home: Many municipal governments are recommending people prepare for the Y2K weekend like they would for a winter storm. Have extra milk, water, food and any necessary medication on hand. Additionally have a little extra cash and fill your automobiles up with gasoline. As always, make sure all the entrances and windows to your home can be locked securely, especially sliding glass doors. Then use the locks. Never leave your house unlocked. Be sure all the doors you cannot see are locked. Make sure your garage door is closed. If possible, find a reputable alarm service and have the appropriate security and exterior lighting system installed at your residence. Install peepholes in your doors that provide 180-degree visibility, including the door to your garage. Ensure shrubs and trees do not block views of your windows and doors from the street. Do not let strangers in your home, especially if you're alone, even if they claim there is a dire emergency. Instead, offer to make an emergency call for them while they wait outside. Avoid giving the impression you are home alone if strangers telephone or come to the door. If you do live alone, it's a good idea to use only your last name and initials on mailboxes and in telephone directories. If you return home and find obvious evidence of forced entry or if a door/window is open that shouldn't be, do not go inside. Go to the nearest phone and call the police. In some geographic areas individuals will fire weapons in the air during the New Year celebration. What they apparently don't realize is that what goes up must come down. Not only is it against the law, but damage or injury can occur, so don't fire a weapon in the air and avoid being around people who do. In the motel or hotel: Thieves count on people celebrating to be less attentive to security. Be careful. Don't leave your luggage unattended. Check your baggage with the staff if you can't go to your room immediately. Keep your extra valuables locked in the hotel safe and inventory your belongings kept in the room every day. Use all available auxiliary- locking devices when occupying or leaving your room. Know who is knocking before you open the door. Report any suspicious activity in the corridors or rooms to management. If someone is loitering in the hall near your room, do not enter your room. Instead, go directly to the front desk and report it. Never enter the room if the door is ajar and do not sit in your room with the door propped open. Don't leave the door open for any length of time, even if you're just going to the ice machine. NOTE: While nothing is 100% guaranteed, if you follow the above points the odds of you becoming a victim to crime will be greatly reduced. When necessary call the police and if it is an emergency dial 911, and remember to report all security concerns related to work to COMPANY Security at ........... ------- End of forwarded message ------- Better to be safe, than sorry. Later, Buck Conner _________________________________ Personal :http://home.att.net/~buck.conner/personal.html Business :http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ AMM Party:http://klesinger.com/jbp/jbp.html _________________________________ Aux Ailments de Pays! Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: infiltrated... Date: 30 Dec 1999 10:45:58 -0800 David Woodbury wrote: > > =============== > "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free > State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." > =============== > > Capt. Lahti, > > That was an outstanding post. Thanks for taking the time to > articulate your thoughts. I can appreciate the argument that an > erosion of any right can rarely be reversed, and, the precedent > established, almost certainly ensures more erosion in the future. My > problem is that I don't believe the absolute right existed in the > first place. I'll address a few points: Dave, Alas, you find me out. I am not perfect in my understanding of the fine points of the issue nor am I perfect in my thoughts on how it should be applied, as you point out. The issue is complicated, granted. I would wish to be consistent in saying that the Constitution is inviolate in it's entirety but as humans there is always some part that works against our inclinations or seems not to go far enough in protecting what we hold dear. This person wants to own any firearm without restriction, I want a mechanism in place that will assure me that he/she is not a criminal or mentally unstable. That person wants to say anything they wish. I say draw the line at public obscenities (I'll be the judge of what is obscene). That person wishes to be secure in his home from search and seizure. I wish to root out the drug labs. I want my kids to pray whenever they feel like it. You say no prayer in schools. (or visa versa of course ) No it is not easy determining what was meant or how to apply it in this day and age but surely the bottom line is "freedoms, liberties and protections lost are not soon recovered". But since there was no organized Militia when the document was written other than every able bodied citizen, it is reasonable for us to feel that the words mean what they say and we are to consider it our right as good citizens to keep and bare arms without further infringement from the government until such time as we prove by our acts to be unworthy of that trust. As to there being an absolute right to "keep and bare arms" existing in the first place, I believe that right is rooted deep within common law going way back in English Common Law which most scholars will admit is the basis for our laws. Any legislation that erodes that basic right is an infringement and in some cases may even be an example of confiscation. Because a state like Calif. has rewritten or rescinded a liberal law with one more restrictive does not make it good law in the eyes of the Constitution. Because the courts have upheld it, does not make it right. As modern citizens we choose to fight such usurpation in the Halls of Congress and in the Courts rather than the field of battle as was done in past ages but it is a constant fight to save basic liberties and rights. We all hold that all men are created equal, etc. but it took an amendment to take the equivocation out of how that basic human right was being abridged. Even with that amendment, are all men still treated equal? The Left attacks the 2nd Amendment to save us from ourselves and solve social ill's and evils. The Right attacks the 1st Amendment to save us from ourselves and make us pure of heart. It's human nature at it's ugly best. A difficult position we find ourselves in, no? Thank you for keeping me honest about my contradictions, may we both grow in wisdom. I remain... YMOS Capt. Lahti' > And yet, (in a quote above) you agree that something *less than all* > is "not that unreasonable." > > David > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: randybublitz@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: infiltrated... Date: 30 Dec 1999 10:46:37 -0800 I have a quick comment.... Why hasn't the US mainland been attacked in times of War? Because it's Citizen's are able and willing to defend it, and everyone knows it. hardtack Your Second Amendment Rights protect ALL of your other Rights, Don't give up your Rights ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ron Chamberlain" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic Date: 30 Dec 1999 11:57:25 -0700 actually he froze to death! >> >Well, it's like I've always said, "build a man a fire and you warm >him for a day, set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life." > >Yes, I have a sick sense of humor. ;-) > > > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Woodbury Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gun control Date: 30 Dec 1999 11:35:28 -0800 At 7:28 AM -0600 12/30/99, northwoods wrote: >Good observation Allen. I am curious as to how folks think they can >re-interperet these simple words and attempt to give them another meaning >all together. The entire Constitution is just "simple words." The First Amendment guarantees freedom of speech, but we have interpreted those simple words to mean you are not free to shout "Fire!" in a crowded theater. The Constitution established a Supreme Court to deal with questions arising from these simple words. David ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gun control Date: 30 Dec 1999 12:22:56 -0800 David Woodbury wrote: > The entire Constitution is just "simple words." The First Amendment > guarantees freedom of speech, but we have interpreted those simple > words to mean you are not free to shout "Fire!" in a crowded theater. Dave, Good point and one that I considered bringing up. As a retired Fire Captain that particular analogy hits home and I have used it in the past to explain responsibility. But what we are saying when we say you can't yell "Fire" in a crowded theater is not that you can't say "Fire" or use the word otherwise, only that you have to do it responsibly and will be held accountable if you do not. We now know that it is unwise and even made it illegal to say "Bomb" in and around airports because some folks don't know it is irresponsible to do that. You can still have the word and still use it if you use it responsibly. The same should apply to fire arms. > The Constitution established a Supreme Court to deal with questions > arising from these simple words. Alas it did. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Woodbury Subject: Re: MtMan-List: infiltrated... Date: 30 Dec 1999 13:05:19 -0800 John, Excellent exposition on the evolution of militia and other troops in this country. I'll keep that one in the file. You make good points, and I acknowledge them all. Alas, there is no definitive answer to these questions. >I ask you, Mr. Woodbury, If Congress has the power to restrict >ownership of firearms, does Congress also have the power to restrict >the freedom of speech, press, and the right to vote? Congress does not have the power to restrict these freedoms in any way that violates the Constitution. If it comes to it -- through legal challenges to some specific legislation -- I have a great deal of confidence in the Supreme Court to decide the issue. I don't believe the Courts or Congress are conspiring to take away basic American freedoms. >Yes Mr. Woodbury, we do agree on several important facets of this >issue, the problem arises as to where the line is drawn. I and many >on this list believe the restrictions are bordering on oppressive, >and will continue to become more oppressive unless we stand firm. I can appreciate that. And I certainly support your right to keep and bear arms. I'm also for less bureaucracy, not more. It's a complicated issue, to be sure, and I'm definitely not one who thinks the answer to things like Columbine, for example, is oppressive gun control. The roots of those problems lay elsewhere. >I fear, Mr. Woodbury, that the lemmings you follow will lead you, >and our freedoms into the sea of oblivion. I arrived at my opinion by studying the Constitution and associated writings of our Founding Fathers, by listening to others who have done the same, and by reading essays and editorials on both sides of the issue. That's because our freedoms are sacred to me. If all of us lemmings approached things as conscientiously, you might not feel your rights are under assault today. It's the ones who would give away our freedoms without even considering the essential ramifications that you need to worry about. David ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Woodbury Subject: Re: MtMan-List: infiltrated... Date: 30 Dec 1999 13:05:32 -0800 At 10:46 AM -0800 12/30/99, randybublitz@juno.com wrote: >I have a quick comment.... Why hasn't the US mainland been attacked in >times of War? Because it's Citizen's are able and willing to defend it, >and everyone knows it. Lots of reasons, mostly geographic or related to the fact that the other warring parties had first to secure their own regions. Small arms in the hands of American citizens has exactly nothing to do with it. Incidentally, in the War of 1812, the British not only attacked the American mainland, they marched on Washington and burned a lot it, while our government ignominiously fled. Having already fought the Colonials in the Revolution, these British knew quite well that ordinary Americans were likely to have weapons. Did Spain have the ability to invade the American mainland in the Spanish American War? Not a chance. In the two World Wars, we *joined* a European war already in progress. How were any of the belligerents in those wars supposed to disengage from their main fronts and mount an invasion of a large country on the other side of the ocean? It was all Germany could do to seize neighboring countries and try to hold the line (though they did lurk off our shores, killing Americans on merchant ships). How was Japan supposed to transport and sustain the kind of army it would take to invade the U.S. during the war years? What about North Korea? Or North Vietnam? No intentions to invade the U.S. under any circumstances. What specific "times of War" are you thinking of, during which the enemy was scared of privately-owned guns? David ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Woodbury Subject: Re: MtMan-List: infiltrated... Date: 30 Dec 1999 13:05:27 -0800 At 10:45 AM -0800 12/30/99, R Lahti wrote: >No it is not easy determining what was meant or how to apply it in this >day and age but surely the bottom line is "freedoms, liberties and >protections lost are not soon recovered". We are agreed. >A difficult position we find ourselves in, no? .... may we both grow >in wisdom... Hear, hear. And here's wishing you all the best in this New Year. Regards, David ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Woodbury Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gun control Date: 30 Dec 1999 13:18:05 -0800 At 12:22 PM -0800 12/30/99, R Lahti wrote: >But what we are saying when we say you can't yell "Fire" in a crowded >theater is not that you can't say "Fire" or use the word otherwise, only >that you have to do it responsibly and will be held accountable if you >do not. . . . You can still have the word and still use it >>if you use it responsibly. The same should apply to fire arms. I agree. David ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Henry B. Crawford" Subject: MtMan-List: Loading blocks Date: 30 Dec 1999 15:22:13 -0500 What size of spade bit is correct for drilling a loading block for a .45 patched round ball? HBC **************************************** Henry B. Crawford Box 43191 Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because It's There ****** ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Loading blocks Date: 30 Dec 1999 13:58:49 -0800 "Henry B. Crawford" wrote: > > What size of spade bit is correct for drilling a loading block for a .45 > patched round ball? Henry, Baring any more precise answers: I go for a hole just bore size or a bit bigger. I also prefer using Forstner Bits for a cleaner hole. Measure the available bit sizes and go from there. If your hole admits to a loose fit with a patched ball in the requisite size you can tighten up the hole by several coats of varnish. The varnish also helps to prevent the wood drawing off your lube. If the available bit will provide too tight a hole, you can open it up with a round rasp. If your hole needs be .45 you will find that a 7/16" bit will be too small by .0125", but if you go with a 29/64" bit it will be too large by only .0031". Which do you wish to work with? A test hole or two is called for. Since I have not made a loading block for a .45 I can't begin to tell you what bit to start with but refer you to the above as a path to travel for the answer. Perhaps someone else will know the exact size that worked for their particular bore size and it will work for you too. Hope this helps, I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Loading blocks Date: 30 Dec 1999 17:11:32 -0800 I think you should measure the dia. of your ball and then add the thickness of the patch. when you put the ball in the loading block you`ll have the patch around it. also I think you should use a regular drill bit, as they come in closer dia sizes. spade or fourster bits are fairly limited to standard sizes. In the end the ole trial and error will be the way you get the best fit. John (BIG JOHN) Hunt Longhunter Mountainman southwest Ohio ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, December 30, 1999 12:22 PM > What size of spade bit is correct for drilling a loading block for a .45 > patched round ball? > > HBC > > **************************************** > Henry B. Crawford Box 43191 > Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University > mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 > 806/742-2442 FAX 742-1136 > Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum > ****** Living History . . . Because It's There ****** > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Dearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: off topic Date: 30 Dec 1999 23:51:16 GMT Well, in that case, I'm sorry I brought it up. ;-) >actually he froze to death! > > >> > >Well, it's like I've always said, "build a man a fire and you warm > >him for a day, set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life." > > > >Yes, I have a sick sense of humor. ;-) > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rick_williams@byu.edu Subject: RE: MtMan-List: gun control Date: 31 Dec 1999 00:25:09 +0000 > The Constitution established a Supreme Court to deal with questions > arising from these simple words. Yes and look at the wonderful job it (supreme court) did for us for nearly two centuries interpreting the meanings and freedoms of African-Americans and Native Americans and the unborn. Unfortunately these men tend to follow current political and public oppinion as any politician I have met. How many times have they reversed themselves on their own rulings. Too many to count. Prohibition being just one of them. We justify restricting these rights in the name of humanity, yet look at what we ignore in the name of freedom. You can't have it both ways. Regards Rick ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gun control Date: 30 Dec 1999 18:43:53 -0600 -----Original Message----- >The Constitution established a Supreme Court to deal with questions >arising from these simple words. > >David > Yes it did. And what has the U.S. Supreme court said about the 2nd amendment that supports the following comment you made? : >"is perfectly reasonable and rational to argue that the 2nd >Amendment was meant to protect states' rights, not individual rights. " northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Porter" Subject: MtMan-List: fabric dies Date: 30 Dec 1999 18:46:06 CST I was wondern' if any of you good folks know how to die hemp or cotton. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Woodbury Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gun control Date: 30 Dec 1999 17:07:15 -0800 At 6:43 PM -0600 12/30/99, northwoods wrote: >Yes it did. And what has the U.S. Supreme court said about the 2nd amendment >that supports the following comment you made? : > > >"is perfectly reasonable and rational to argue that the 2nd > >Amendment was meant to protect states' rights, not individual rights. " U.S. v. Miller, 1939, ". .the 2nd amendment does not grant the right to bear arms that do not have some reasonable relationship to the preservation and efficiency of a well regulated militia". A militia, so says the 2nd Amendment, is necessary to the security of a free state. - David ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mrwinkie26@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Greenhorn needs help. Date: 30 Dec 1999 20:16:49 EST Hello Gentlemen & Ladies. I've been lurking in the shadows for awhile and I've learned a lot. I need your help and advice. Our local community historical society started a spirit night last year. It is essentially a walking tour of the town where you get to meet famous and infamous town people from the past. It was a great hit. I got conned(pun intended) into playing a prisoner in the county jail who got hung for his misdeeds. I must've been convincing as evidently several people thought I was a real convict. This coming year I'd like to prepare a skit for a trapper, mountain man, frontiersman etc.who would describe what the area looked like prior to when the town was here. The area in question is western Pennsylvania. The town is Ebensburg PA, settled in the 1790's. It sits on top of the Allegheny Ridge. So I'd be looking for advice on attire for a trapper or frontiersman from the early to mid 1700's in western PA. That's the first problem. The second problem is this. I figure I'd be the ideal person to play this part. I'm 6' 2" 300lbs, Full beard and mustache and a pony tail. The clothing will all have to be in the 2X, 3X, 4X. size..... and since I more than likely will only wear it once or twice a year, the outfit must be inexpensive. I await your sage advice and recommendations. Joe Umholtz Experienced convict and novice mountain man. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Woodbury Subject: RE: MtMan-List: gun control Date: 30 Dec 1999 17:24:43 -0800 At 12:25 AM +0000 12/31/99, rick_williams@byu.edu wrote: >Yes and look at the wonderful job it (supreme court) did for us for nearly >two centuries interpreting the meanings and freedoms of African-Americans >and Native Americans and the unborn. None of the three branches of our Federal government work perfectly, but I've not seen anything better elsewhere. I'll mercifully spare the list a lengthy exchange on abortion -- don't think we'll break any new ground there -- but what "meanings and freedoms" are you referring to with respect to African Americans and Native Americans? That is, in terms of Supreme Court decisions( it took the Supreme Court to end segregation). >Unfortunately these men tend to follow >current political and public opinion as any politician I have met. I don't think so. In fact, they are notorious for going their own way once safely on the bench (meaning the party of the president who appointed them cannot count on a predictable vote). But it's true that the Justices, like us, are products of the time in which we live. >How >many times have they reversed themselves on their own rulings. Too many to >count. Prohibition being just one of them. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you're confused. The Supreme Court did not reverse itself on Prohibition. That was an amendment to the Constitution, ratified by the states. A subsequent amendment canceled it out. In other words it was a legislative process, not a judicial one. David ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gun control Date: 30 Dec 1999 20:28:39 -0500 First, we hang the lawyers.....Then the liberals No reply or rebuttal needed or wanted.. Doon get me started.. Not pretty or civil. D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Dearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gun control Date: 31 Dec 1999 01:52:16 GMT > >"is perfectly reasonable and rational to argue that the 2nd > >Amendment was meant to protect states' rights, not individual rights. " > Hmmm, I understood the the War of Northern Aggression ended, once and for all time, the issue of states rights. ;-) Actually States do not have rights, States have powers not reserved for the Federal Government. I don't recall, off hand, section and paragraph, but you, as a history professor, should know that. J.D. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gun control Date: 30 Dec 1999 19:55:00 -0600 -----Original Message----- >U.S. v. Miller, 1939, ". .the 2nd amendment does not grant the right >to bear arms that do not have some reasonable relationship to the >preservation and efficiency of a well regulated militia". > Where in this statement are they not reffering to individual rights? >A militia, so says the 2nd Amendment, is necessary to the security of >a free state. > >- David It says: A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. How do you arrive at the conclusion that because it states:"a well regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state" that the statement "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." is not referring to individual rights? northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Dearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Loading blocks Date: 31 Dec 1999 02:02:52 GMT >What size of spade bit is correct for drilling a loading block for a >.45 >patched round ball? > Assuming you shoot a .440 ball with .o15 patching, a 15/32 drill bit .469 dia. should be pretty close. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Woodbury Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gun control Date: 30 Dec 1999 18:12:22 -0800 At 1:52 AM +0000 12/31/99, John Dearing wrote: >Hmmm, I understood the the War of Northern Aggression ended, once >and for all time, the issue of states rights. ;-) No, the Civil War settled the issue of secession. The balance of power between the states and the Federal government, however, continues to be an issue. >Actually States do not have rights, States have powers not reserved >for the Federal Government. I don't recall, off hand, section and >paragraph, but you, as a history professor, should know that. Yes, state rights is a figure of speech. I was guessing you'd know what it meant. I don't teach history, but I do read books. And I've read the Constitution. If memory serves, you're referring to the so-called Supremacy Clause of Article X. David ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Dearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: infiltrated... Date: 31 Dec 1999 02:20:16 GMT >It was all Germany could do to seize neighboring countries >and try to hold the line (though they did lurk off our shores, >killing Americans on merchant ships). How was Japan supposed to >transport and sustain the kind of army it would take to invade the >U.S. during the war years? What about North Korea? Or North Vietnam? >No intentions to invade the U.S. under any circumstances. > >What specific "times of War" are you thinking of, during which the >enemy was scared of privately-owned guns? > Actually, documents recovered at the end of WW II indicated that Japan contemplated an invasion of the Hawaiian Islands and the West Coast of the continental U.S., but decided against such an invasion partly because of the armed civilians they knew they would have to face. This planned invasion was intended to be short lived, as an attempt to bully the U.S. Government into capitulating at the very beginning of the war. The Japanese seemed to be more concerned about the armed private citizen than the U.S. Army at that early period in the war. J.D. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Woodbury Subject: Re: MtMan-List: infiltrated... Date: 30 Dec 1999 18:24:42 -0800 At 2:20 AM +0000 12/31/99, John Dearing wrote: >The Japanese seemed to be more concerned about the armed private >citizen than the U.S. Army at that early period in the war. That's interesting. Is there somewhere I can read more about it? -dw ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Dearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: infiltrated... Date: 31 Dec 1999 02:45:22 GMT >That's interesting. Is there somewhere I can read more about it? > >-dw > I don't recall the source. I don't save every reference I come across. My notes are an overloaded mess as it is. That information shouldn't be all that hard to find though. I'll see what can find on this end if you will do the same on your end. BTW, I appreciate your comments on my overview of the military establishments of the 18 th Century. That time period is my primary interest, and I have done a good bit of research in that area. The problem I am currently contending with is I have read so much that I am experiencing sensory overload and I can't seem to remember sources or organize my notes so that those things are easily found. J.D. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Anne MacDonnald Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fabric dies Date: 31 Dec 1999 21:45:51 -0500 yup use a dye.. rit will work, if you do not mind modern stuff.. but you must have a mordant... that is the stuff that sets the dye so it does not fade. Lotsa things can be a mordant, vinegar, ammonia.. and hot piss.. yeah, animal urine works real good... commercially it comes powdered and is called urea. Natural dyes.. depends on the color you want to achieve.. Black in not really period.. it was not until this century that a stable black dye was created, it faded usually to a dark green... ask me off list if you want, know a great deal about natural dyeing... anne Matt Porter wrote: > I was wondern' if any of you good folks know how to die hemp or cotton. > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Woodbury Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gun control Date: 30 Dec 1999 18:46:10 -0800 At 7:55 PM -0600 12/30/99, northwoods wrote: >It says: >A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, >the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. > >How do you arrive at the conclusion that because it states:"a well regulated >militia is necessary to the security of a free state" >that the statement "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not >be infringed." is not referring to individual rights? As I read it, it is a single sentence, in two main parts. The opening clause, "a well regulated militia," is the subject, which subject is necessary to the security of a free state. The second part of the sentence ensures that the subject of the amendment will always be possible. Why didn't they just cut out the first part and let the whole amendment read: "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed," unless they intended for this right to be in the context of a well-regulated militia? It's an interpretation. David ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Forrest Smouse Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: dead horse gun discussion Date: 30 Dec 1999 19:56:39 -0700 --------------C53045A4E8AAA9D1A8507BC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think that most of us would agree that the firearms used by the average citizens in the 1830's were the same as those used by the militia of the same time period. We have an example of the state taking the rights of it's citizens to keep and bear arms and its consequences right here in the U.S. 1838 in the state of Missouri, Governor Boggs required all Mormons to surrender their firearms to the State. After complying with the order the Mormons were then barred from voting. The Governor then signed an extermination order against the Mormons. On the 30 of Oct. 1838 a small Mormon community called Haun's Mill was attacked under Boggs orders and 19 Mormons were killed and 12 were wounded. The Mormons leadership was arrested and ordered by Boggs to be shot by firing squad. Certain non mormons in the Missouri militia prevented this act. This unbelievable act happened in the US were such acts are not supposed to happen and are supposed to be protected. My fear is that these rights are all but gone and that we will shortly see an increase and renewal of human right violations occuring in this country under the guise of State Protection ! Forrest #1691 David Woodbury wrote: > At 4:52 AM +0000 12/29/99, John Dearing wrote: > >I do believe the point of this reference was to illustrate how > >registering firearms, "just so the government would know who owned > >them" can be, and was used to find out where those firearms were, > >then forced the owners to turn them in or to become criminals. > > Sorry to keep dragging this out, but the "point" of the reference was > the concluding comment in the message to which I responded. Summing > up the reference, Texan said: > "What is happening in California is evidence > of what is called encroachment, which has as > its eventual goal the law abiding citizen being > completely disarmed." > > Incidentally, if I read Texan's excerpt correctly, the only people > being asked to turn in guns were those who already owned these > so-called military style firearms, but who failed to register them in > the 2+ years allotted. Whether or not you agree that the Attorney > General had the authority to tell people they could register them > after that 1992 date (evidently a court disagreed), the fact remains > that the state of California allowed everyone to *keep* their > weapons, except those who failed to meet the extraordinarily generous > deadline (between 1989 and 1992, according to Texan's excerpt). > > >Any registration scheme can, and based on recent history, will be > >used for the purpose of confiscation. > > Seems to me it is just the opposite. Is there anything you can point > me to which shows a trend toward confiscating the registered weapons > of citizens? The example used here deals with 1,600 guns that the > owners originally failed to register by the deadline (I think the > Johnny-come-latelys did get screwed, but they could easily have > avoided the problem by complying with the law initially). But surely > the millions of registered weapons in this country have remained > legally secure in their owners' possession just as long as they were > legally registered. What recent history are you referring to > (admittedly, it's not something I follow very closely). > > >I do believe the Second Amendment contains the phrase "the right of > >the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed", according > >to the Thordike Barnhart Dictionary, an infringement is anything > >that hinders, violates, encroaches upon, or intrudes upon, in this > >case, the lawful ownership of firearms. > > And the courts, in light of the *entire* sentence (referencing > militias), have consistently ruled that the amendment in no way > suggests an inalienable personal right for a citizen to possess > whatever weaponry they wish without some legislative constraints. > > >That means that the government does not have the legitimate > >authority to, in any way, restrict the ownership of firearms to it's > >law abiding citizens. > > That's one interpretation. Just not the one that most courts have arrived at. > > David > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html --------------C53045A4E8AAA9D1A8507BC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think that most of us would agree that the firearms used by the average citizens in the  1830's were the same as those used by the militia of the same time period. We have an example of the state taking the rights of it's citizens to keep and bear arms and its consequences right here in the U.S.  1838 in the state of Missouri, Governor Boggs required all Mormons to surrender their firearms to the State.  After complying with the order the Mormons were then barred from voting.  The Governor then signed an extermination order against the Mormons.  On the 30 of Oct. 1838 a small Mormon community called Haun's Mill was attacked under Boggs orders and 19 Mormons were killed and 12 were wounded.  The Mormons leadership was arrested and ordered by Boggs to be shot by firing squad.  Certain non mormons in the Missouri militia prevented this act.  This unbelievable act happened in the US were such acts are not supposed to happen and are supposed to be protected.  My fear is that these rights are all but gone and that we will shortly see an increase and renewal of human right violations occuring in this country under the guise of State Protection !

Forrest  #1691

David Woodbury wrote:

At 4:52 AM +0000 12/29/99, John Dearing wrote:
>I do believe the point of this reference was to illustrate how
>registering firearms, "just so the government would know who owned
>them" can be, and was used to find out where those firearms were,
>then forced the owners to turn them in or to become criminals.

Sorry to keep dragging this out, but the "point" of the reference was
the concluding comment in the message to which I responded. Summing
up the reference, Texan said:
      "What is happening in California is evidence
      of what is called encroachment, which has as
      its eventual goal the law abiding citizen being
      completely disarmed."

Incidentally, if I read Texan's excerpt correctly, the only people
being asked to turn in guns were those who already owned these
so-called military style firearms, but who failed to register them in
the 2+ years allotted. Whether or not you agree that the Attorney
General had the authority to tell people they could register them
after that 1992 date (evidently a court disagreed), the fact remains
that the state of California allowed everyone to *keep* their
weapons, except those who failed to meet the extraordinarily generous
deadline (between 1989 and 1992, according to Texan's excerpt).

>Any registration scheme can, and based on recent history, will be
>used for the purpose of confiscation.

Seems to me it is just the opposite. Is there anything you can point
me to which shows a trend toward confiscating the registered weapons
of citizens? The example used here deals with 1,600 guns that the
owners originally failed to register by the deadline (I think the
Johnny-come-latelys did get screwed, but they could easily have
avoided the problem by complying with the law initially). But surely
the millions of registered weapons in this country have remained
legally secure in their owners' possession just as long as they were
legally registered.  What recent history are you referring to
(admittedly, it's not something I follow very closely).

>I do believe the Second Amendment contains the phrase "the right of
>the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed", according
>to the Thordike Barnhart Dictionary, an infringement is anything
>that hinders, violates, encroaches upon, or intrudes upon, in this
>case, the lawful ownership of firearms.

And the courts, in light of the *entire* sentence (referencing
militias), have consistently ruled that the amendment in no way
suggests an inalienable personal right for a citizen to possess
whatever weaponry they wish without some legislative constraints.

>That means that the government does not have the legitimate
>authority to, in any way, restrict the ownership of firearms to it's
>law abiding citizens.

That's one interpretation. Just not the one that most courts have arrived at.

David

----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

--------------C53045A4E8AAA9D1A8507BC0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Victoria Pate Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: dead horse gun discussion Date: 30 Dec 1999 23:31:26 -0600 My fear is that these rights are all > but gone and > that we will shortly see an increase and renewal of human right > violations > occuring in this country under the guise of State Protection ! > > Forrest #1691 As in the travesty of David Koresh and the Branch Davidians, comprised of many women and children, who were burned to death in Waco, Texas by Big Brother in order to "protect them from themselves". Texan > > David Woodbury wrote: > > > At 4:52 AM +0000 12/29/99, John Dearing wrote: > > >I do believe the point of this reference was to illustrate how > > >registering firearms, "just so the government would know who > owned > > >them" can be, and was used to find out where those firearms were, > > >then forced the owners to turn them in or to become criminals. > > > > Sorry to keep dragging this out, but the "point" of the reference > was > > the concluding comment in the message to which I responded. > Summing > > up the reference, Texan said: > > "What is happening in California is evidence > > of what is called encroachment, which has as > > its eventual goal the law abiding citizen being > > completely disarmed." > > > > Incidentally, if I read Texan's excerpt correctly, the only people > > being asked to turn in guns were those who already owned these > > so-called military style firearms, but who failed to register them > in > > the 2+ years allotted. Whether or not you agree that the Attorney > > General had the authority to tell people they could register them > > after that 1992 date (evidently a court disagreed), the fact > remains > > that the state of California allowed everyone to *keep* their > > weapons, except those who failed to meet the extraordinarily > generous > > deadline (between 1989 and 1992, according to Texan's excerpt). > > > > >Any registration scheme can, and based on recent history, will be > > >used for the purpose of confiscation. > > > > Seems to me it is just the opposite. Is there anything you can > point > > me to which shows a trend toward confiscating the registered > weapons > > of citizens? The example used here deals with 1,600 guns that the > > owners originally failed to register by the deadline (I think the > > Johnny-come-latelys did get screwed, but they could easily have > > avoided the problem by complying with the law initially). But > surely > > the millions of registered weapons in this country have remained > > legally secure in their owners' possession just as long as they > were > > legally registered. What recent history are you referring to > > (admittedly, it's not something I follow very closely). > > > > >I do believe the Second Amendment contains the phrase "the right > of > > >the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed", > according > > >to the Thordike Barnhart Dictionary, an infringement is anything > > >that hinders, violates, encroaches upon, or intrudes upon, in > this > > >case, the lawful ownership of firearms. > > > > And the courts, in light of the *entire* sentence (referencing > > militias), have consistently ruled that the amendment in no way > > suggests an inalienable personal right for a citizen to possess > > whatever weaponry they wish without some legislative constraints. > > > > >That means that the government does not have the legitimate > > >authority to, in any way, restrict the ownership of firearms to > it's > > >law abiding citizens. > > > > That's one interpretation. Just not the one that most courts have > arrived at. > > > > David > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: michael pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: infiltrated... Date: 31 Dec 1999 00:46:56 EST what does this hav to do with mountain men and the time span we are interested in--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr Palm harbor, florida 34684 E-mail: Hawknest4@juno.com web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce/ ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Huss931@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: infiltrated... Date: 31 Dec 1999 10:11:13 EST I just read a mention about the "Jed Smith Society" Is there such a real group or was this just a metaphor? I am interested in knowing more. Offline will be okay. Thanks, Steve (huss931@aol.com) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: MtMan-List: Y2K-200 Date: 31 Dec 1999 08:49:17 -0700 Just before dawn, there was a volley of gunfire not far from our house. My husband and I quickly dressed the children. Outside, we faced a small band of Canadians with guns. I could also see a crowd of Indians beginning to push through the fort gates. My husband, dressed in his best clothes, went to speak with the Canadians. Their leader bowed to my husband with a flourish. "A happy and healthy new year to you, your family, and the company, mon bourgeois." "Thank you for your salute, and a happy new year to you all. Please, come in for a regale." The voyageurs pushed into the hall, where I had laid everything in readiness the night before. The Natives were getting closer, and I hurried forward to them. "Don't worry!" I called out in Cree to my friends & relatives. "They start their winter celebrations with a gunfire salute. Come into the hall, and share in the treat. There will be one free drink for everyone, and tonight we will have a dance." I could see relieved smiles bloom on familiar faces. I hurried back to the trading hall, for the voyageurs would expect to salute the bourgeois' wife with a kiss before they took their treat of shrub and tobacco. Tonight the people from the nearby Hudson's Bay Company fort would come to the ball. It would be a good time to practice the English that Angus had been teaching me since winter began; Mr. Tomison would be surprised! Those two were cutthroat rivals when they were trading furs, but tonight they would trade stories instead. January 1, 1800. Rocky Mountain House, on the North Saskatchewan River. Best wishes for Health and Happiness in the New Year from Your Obliged & Obedient Servant, Angela Gottfred P.S. Of course, the evening turned perfectly horrid when some drunken voyageurs started fighting... ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tipis@mediaone.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Y2K-200 Date: 31 Dec 1999 10:58:40 -0500 That is one of the nicest New Year greeting I have ever heard. With all the talk on the 2nd. Amendment lately, this was a very nice and warming hello to us all. Linda Holley PS....did any one see A&E last night on guns?? Angela Gottfred wrote: > Just before dawn, there was a volley of gunfire not far from our house. My > husband and I quickly dressed the children. Outside, we faced a small band > of Canadians with guns. I could also see a crowd of Indians beginning to > push through the fort gates. My husband, dressed in his best clothes, went > to speak with the Canadians. > Their leader bowed to my husband with a flourish. "A happy and healthy new > year to you, your family, and the company, mon bourgeois." > "Thank you for your salute, and a happy new year to you all. Please, come in > for a regale." The voyageurs pushed into the hall, where I had laid > everything in readiness the night before. The Natives were getting closer, > and I hurried forward to them. > "Don't worry!" I called out in Cree to my friends & relatives. "They start > their winter celebrations with a gunfire salute. Come into the hall, and > share in the treat. There will be one free drink for everyone, and tonight > we will have a dance." I could see relieved smiles bloom on familiar faces. > I hurried back to the trading hall, for the voyageurs would expect to salute > the bourgeois' wife with a kiss before they took their treat of shrub and > tobacco. Tonight the people from the nearby Hudson's Bay Company fort would > come to the ball. It would be a good time to practice the English that Angus > had been teaching me since winter began; Mr. Tomison would be surprised! > Those two were cutthroat rivals when they were trading furs, but tonight > they would trade stories instead. > > January 1, 1800. Rocky Mountain House, on the North Saskatchewan River. > > Best wishes for Health and Happiness in the New Year from > Your Obliged & Obedient Servant, > Angela Gottfred > > P.S. Of course, the evening turned perfectly horrid when some drunken > voyageurs started fighting... > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Woodbury Subject: Re: MtMan-List: infiltrated... Date: 31 Dec 1999 08:02:47 -0800 At 10:11 AM -0500 12/31/99, Huss931@aol.com wrote: >I just read a mention about the "Jed Smith Society" Is there such a real >group or was this just a metaphor? I am interested in knowing more. Offline >will be okay. The organization dates back to 1957, headquartered on the campus of the University of the Pacific in Stockton, Calif. http://www1.uop.edu/organizations/JSS96.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: farseer Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Loading blocks Date: 31 Dec 1999 10:23:07 -0600 I used a 7/16 bit for the .45. I shoot a .445 ball with .015 patch. It was a little loose, but not bad once the ball was patched, stayed put when I was loping through the woods, seeing how well things stayed where I put 'em. I've made blocks for my .40 and my .50, but half the time I don't use them. I definitely second the recommendation on forstner bits though, unfortunately, they don't make the forstners (least I haven't found them) in the "off" sizes like 29/64. Also, make sure you put a harder piece of wood underneath your block when drilling - good practice anytime, but it eliminates splintering and tearing at breakthrough. Todd > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of R Lahti > Sent: Thursday, December 30, 1999 3:59 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Loading blocks > > > > > "Henry B. Crawford" wrote: > > > > What size of spade bit is correct for drilling a loading block for a .45 > > patched round ball? > > Henry, > > Baring any more precise answers: I go for a hole just bore size or a bit > bigger. I also prefer using Forstner Bits for a cleaner hole. Measure > the available bit sizes and go from there. If your hole admits to a > loose fit with a patched ball in the requisite size you can tighten up > the hole by several coats of varnish. The varnish also helps to prevent > the wood drawing off your lube. If the available bit will provide too > tight a hole, you can open it up with a round rasp. > > If your hole needs be .45 you will find that a 7/16" bit will be too > small by .0125", but if you go with a 29/64" bit it will be too large by > only .0031". Which do you wish to work with? A test hole or two is > called for. > > Since I have not made a loading block for a .45 I can't begin to tell > you what bit to start with but refer you to the above as a path to > travel for the answer. Perhaps someone else will know the exact size > that worked for their particular bore size and it will work for you too. > Hope this helps, I remain..... > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kevin Pitman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coffee grinders Date: 31 Dec 1999 11:08:05 PST Speaking of tea, how prevalent was the Lapsang Souchong variety (McKeag's favorite from Centennial). I have a couple of pounds of the stuff, and I love though my wife says it smells like a three day old campfire (don't know what's wrong with that either). For those in Texas at least, Cost Plus carries bulk teas including the more exotic or hard to find varieties ie) Lapsang Souchong. Thanks. YMOS, Kevin Pitman (still waiting to earn a "name") >From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coffee grinders >Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 12:26:06 -0800 > >It's been a long time since I've really tried to find good data on coffee >during the fur trade, but it seems to me that when I was doing research in >that or adjacent areas, water or tea was the most often mentioned >non-alcoholic beverage. It made sense to me because tea is less bulky to >pack, easier to prepare, and at that time, perhaps more readily available. >Tea was also reputed to have some medicinal properties. >Bill C >-----Original Message----- >From: SWcushing@aol.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Date: Wednesday, December 29, 1999 10:39 AM >Subject: MtMan-List: Coffee grinders > > > >Ho the list, > > > >Just when ya think all the dumb questions have been asked..... > > > >One of the items I got for being a good camper this year is a neat >antique > >coffee grinder that stills works great. So.....my question is: How long >have > >coffee grinders been around...... and how did the Mountain Men grind >their > >coffee? I've tried using my rifle butt, or hawk, or a rock and wooden >bowl, > >but there must be a better way. > > > >Hope everyone had a great Christmas, and have a Happy New Year! > > > >Ymos, > > > >Steve > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Greenhorn needs help. Date: 31 Dec 1999 18:05:27 -0500 Joe, Do you have a sewing machine? go down to the fabric store and pick up some duck canvas (white) get the 60" wide stuff. buy about 5 or 6 yards take it home and wash it and dye it green or brown or red. once dry lay out on the floor 60 inch left to right and double it down. Then lay a sweatshirt on it, measure about an inch away from the bottom of the sleeves and sides of the shirt and put pins then take it to the machine. What you are doing is making a pioneer shirt. once all sewn cut away excess and and cut a neck hole. Note: make it just big enough to fit your head through. Turn inside out and wala you have a pioneer shirt. Wrap a big 3" belt around your waist and now all you need to do is make the pants. Pants - go down to k-mart and buy yourself a pair of painters pants, the canvas ones. cut off hammer loops, dye brown and you have your pants. Or what I did when I first started buckskinning , I used a dark brown pair of Kaki pants worked great and from a distance they looked like buckskins. Good Luck email me at ikon@mindspring.com if you have any questions. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, December 30, 1999 8:16 PM > Hello Gentlemen & Ladies. > > I've been lurking in the shadows for awhile and I've learned a lot. I need > your help and advice. Our local community historical society started a spirit > night last year. It is essentially a walking tour of the town where you get > to meet famous and infamous town people from the past. It was a great hit. I > got conned(pun intended) into playing a prisoner in the county jail who got > hung for his misdeeds. I must've been convincing as evidently several people > thought I was a real convict. This coming year I'd like to prepare a skit for > a trapper, mountain man, frontiersman etc.who would describe what the area > looked like prior to when the town was here. The area in question is western > Pennsylvania. The town is Ebensburg PA, settled in the 1790's. It sits on top > of the Allegheny Ridge. So I'd be looking for advice on attire for a trapper > or frontiersman from the early to mid 1700's in western PA. That's the first > problem. The second problem is this. I figure I'd be the ideal person to play > this part. I'm 6' 2" 300lbs, Full beard and mustache and a pony tail. The > clothing will all have to be in the 2X, 3X, 4X. size..... and since I more > than likely will only wear it once or twice a year, the outfit must be > inexpensive. > > I await your sage advice and recommendations. > > Joe Umholtz > Experienced convict and novice mountain man. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: dead horse gun discussion Date: 31 Dec 1999 17:04:28 -0800 Awh come on folks..........lets dump this stuff..............this isn't the forum that this sight was designed for. We can keep this stiff going on for the next 1000 years without EVER coming to a common ground. So, lets get back to the "common ground" that we can ALL identify with.............. Remember.........it's called the "Fur Trade".............. John Funk ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, December 30, 1999 9:31 PM > > > My fear is that these rights are all > > but gone and > > that we will shortly see an increase and renewal of human right > > violations > > occuring in this country under the guise of State Protection ! > > > > Forrest #1691 > > > As in the travesty of David Koresh and the Branch > Davidians, comprised of many women and children, > who were burned to death in Waco, Texas by Big > Brother in order to "protect them from themselves". > > Texan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > David Woodbury wrote: > > > > > At 4:52 AM +0000 12/29/99, John Dearing wrote: > > > >I do believe the point of this reference was to illustrate how > > > >registering firearms, "just so the government would know who > > owned > > > >them" can be, and was used to find out where those firearms were, > > > >then forced the owners to turn them in or to become criminals. > > > > > > Sorry to keep dragging this out, but the "point" of the reference > > was > > > the concluding comment in the message to which I responded. > > Summing > > > up the reference, Texan said: > > > "What is happening in California is evidence > > > of what is called encroachment, which has as > > > its eventual goal the law abiding citizen being > > > completely disarmed." > > > > > > Incidentally, if I read Texan's excerpt correctly, the only people > > > being asked to turn in guns were those who already owned these > > > so-called military style firearms, but who failed to register them > > in > > > the 2+ years allotted. Whether or not you agree that the Attorney > > > General had the authority to tell people they could register them > > > after that 1992 date (evidently a court disagreed), the fact > > remains > > > that the state of California allowed everyone to *keep* their > > > weapons, except those who failed to meet the extraordinarily > > generous > > > deadline (between 1989 and 1992, according to Texan's excerpt). > > > > > > >Any registration scheme can, and based on recent history, will be > > > >used for the purpose of confiscation. > > > > > > Seems to me it is just the opposite. Is there anything you can > > point > > > me to which shows a trend toward confiscating the registered > > weapons > > > of citizens? The example used here deals with 1,600 guns that the > > > owners originally failed to register by the deadline (I think the > > > Johnny-come-latelys did get screwed, but they could easily have > > > avoided the problem by complying with the law initially). But > > surely > > > the millions of registered weapons in this country have remained > > > legally secure in their owners' possession just as long as they > > were > > > legally registered. What recent history are you referring to > > > (admittedly, it's not something I follow very closely). > > > > > > >I do believe the Second Amendment contains the phrase "the right > > of > > > >the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed", > > according > > > >to the Thordike Barnhart Dictionary, an infringement is anything > > > >that hinders, violates, encroaches upon, or intrudes upon, in > > this > > > >case, the lawful ownership of firearms. > > > > > > And the courts, in light of the *entire* sentence (referencing > > > militias), have consistently ruled that the amendment in no way > > > suggests an inalienable personal right for a citizen to possess > > > whatever weaponry they wish without some legislative constraints. > > > > > > >That means that the government does not have the legitimate > > > >authority to, in any way, restrict the ownership of firearms to > > it's > > > >law abiding citizens. > > > > > > That's one interpretation. Just not the one that most courts have > > arrived at. > > > > > > David > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Glenn Darilek" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coffee grinders Date: 31 Dec 1999 21:01:15 -0000 I searched Dean Rudy's hist_text archives http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/cgi-bin/uncgi-bin/site_search.html and found about 32 references to coffee and 18 to tea. Although a little past the rendezvous era, Ruxton summarizes it pretty well: The absence of coffee he made the theme of regret at every meal, bewailing his misfortune in not having at that particular moment a supply of this article, which he never before was without, and which I may here observe, amongst the hunters and trappers, when in camp or rendevous, is considered as an indispensable necessary. Coffee, being very cheap in the States, is the universal beverage of the western people, and finds its way to the mountains in the packs of the Indian traders, who retail it to the mountain-men at the moderate price of from two to six dollars the half-pint cup. However, my friend Laforey was never known to possess any, and his lamentations were only intended to soften my heart, as he thought (erroneously) that I must certainly carry a supply with me. "Sacre enfant de Garce," he would exclaim, mixing English, French, and Spanish into a puchero-like jumble, "voyez-vous dat I vas nevare tan pauvre as dis time; mais before I vas siempre avec plenty cafe, plenty sucre; mais now, God dam, I not go a Santa Fe" God dam, and mountain-men dey come aqui from autre cote, drink all my cafe. Sacre enfant de Garce, nevare I vas tan pauvre as dis time, God dam. I not care comer meat, ni frijole, ni corn, mais widout cafe I no live. I hunt may be two, three day, may be one week, mais I eat notin'; mais sin cafe, enfant de Garce, I no live, parce-que me not sacre Espagnol, mais one Frenchman." Glenn Darilek Iron Burner >Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 12:26:06 -0800 >From: bcunningham@gwe.net (Bill Cunningham) >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coffee grinders >It's been a long time since I've really tried to find good data on coffee >during the fur trade, but it seems to me that when I was doing research in >that or adjacent areas, water or tea was the most often mentioned >non-alcoholic beverage. It made sense to me because tea is less bulky to >pack, easier to prepare, and at that time, perhaps more readily available. >Tea was also reputed to have some medicinal properties. >Bill C ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Thoughts on a Year's End Date: 01 Jan 1999 00:58:26 EST "So ends the year..., but let it pass in silence to oblivion, with the thousands that have gone before, and must hereafter follow it. Its hopes, its fears, can no longer excite or agitate; its perils, and privations, are already half forgotten; and even the severe disappointments it produced, have entirely lost the ability to disturb. Well! with all its imperfections on its head, let it descend to the dark void of by-gone eternity, and we, older if not wiser, will again look forward with eager curiosity, to the events which yet slumber in the bosom of another; with wishes that will probably prove to be vain, with hopes that may be destined to experience disappointment, and with expectations that are doubtless doomed to be blasted; but which are all, notwithstanding their frailty and uncertainty, cherished with fondness, perhaps with folly." Warren A. Ferris December 31, 1833 Thompson Creek Ferris, Warren Angus. Life in the Rocky Mountains. Leroy R. Hafen, ed. Old West Publishing Co., Denver, CO. 1983. p. 310. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html