From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: NOVA Date: 01 Jul 2000 02:30:12 EDT hello the list! Yes Dennis I saw the show it was pretty interesting. My question is, If the frenchman couldnt make it on the Tx gulf coastcause of the Indians and gators and such, how the blazes did they make it all the way up the big muddy to Canada?? ZZZZZZZZZ Sleeps Loudly Wade Smith ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: NOVA Date: 01 Jul 2000 07:43:43 -0400 Wade Wondered that myself.... I would like to hear the story of THAT journey... D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint doubles Date: 01 Jul 2000 07:15:40 -0700 On Fri, 30 June 2000, Concho Smith wrote: > John, > Not only does Buck have a nice original flint side by side made by TWIGG in 16ga., he has a nice repro of a West Richards flint side by side in 20ga. I........ > Concho. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Concho, You talk to much, expected to see lots of stuff on list, everyone laying low for the long weekend ! Coming in from Utah last night traffic wasn't that bad going east or west. Let's keep our fingers crossed that everyone has a safe weekend. Later Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ CLARK & SONS MERCANTILE, INC. "One who trades" "Uno quien negocia" "Unquil Commerce" English Spanish French *Period grains *mill items *cookware *camp equipage* & much, much more. ~~~~~~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ ~~~~~~ Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: MtMan-List: Payson, Utah Date: 01 Jul 2000 08:27:56 -0600 Buck, Any luck finding property?. If you move to Payson, you will be just 30 miles south from my house and less than that from Todd. Rick Williams is in Provo, Todd in Riverton, I am in South Jordan. Lots of nice country and a good Party to hang with. Ole ---------- >From: Buck Conner >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint doubles >Date: Sat, Jul 1, 2000, 8:15 AM > >On Fri, 30 June 2000, Concho Smith wrote: >> John, >> Not only does Buck have a nice original flint side by side made by TWIGG >in 16ga., he has a nice repro of a West Richards flint side by side in >20ga. I........ >> Concho. >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >Concho, >You talk to much, expected to see lots of stuff on list, everyone laying >low for the long weekend ! Coming in from Utah last night traffic wasn't >that bad going east or west. Let's keep our fingers crossed that everyone >has a safe weekend. > >Later >Buck Conner >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > CLARK & SONS MERCANTILE, INC. >"One who trades" "Uno quien negocia" "Unquil Commerce" > English Spanish French > > *Period grains *mill items *cookware *camp equipage* > & much, much more. >~~~~~~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ ~~~~~~ > Aux Aliments de Pays! >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: MtMan-List: Patriot! Date: 01 Jul 2000 21:53:40 -0600 Gentelmen & Ladies, Saw Patriot today, good flick. Better than braveheart, we will be up to our ear's in tricornered hats shortly. There were some problems but not that bad all in all. Was a good pro second amendment statement. I liked it. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patriot! Date: 01 Jul 2000 23:00:31 -0600 --------------9B17E91E2EA430B0443FA396 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ole, Will see it tomorrow, thanks for the info. If you or anyone else is looking for a good movie rental, you can check out "Grey Owl". Not much press on it. Good story about a guide/ trapper. Tell the ladies that Pierce Brosnan is it. And my friend Denise says he is getting better with age. (take it for what it is worth guys.) mike. my web pages "Ole B. Jensen" wrote: > Gentelmen & Ladies, > Saw Patriot today, good flick. Better than braveheart, we will be up to our > ear's in tricornered hats shortly. There were some problems but not that bad > all in all. Was a good pro second amendment statement. I liked it. > YMOS > Ole # 718 > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html --------------9B17E91E2EA430B0443FA396 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ole,
    Will see it tomorrow, thanks for the info. If you or anyone else  is looking
for a good movie rental, you can check out "Grey Owl". Not much press on it.
Good story about a guide/ trapper. Tell the ladies that Pierce Brosnan is it. And
my friend Denise says he is getting better with age. (take it for what it is worth guys.)

                                                mike.
my web pages

"Ole B. Jensen" wrote:

Gentelmen & Ladies,
Saw Patriot today, good flick. Better than braveheart, we will be up to our
ear's in tricornered hats shortly. There were some problems but not that bad
all in all. Was a good pro second amendment statement. I liked it.
YMOS
Ole # 718

----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

--------------9B17E91E2EA430B0443FA396-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Matt Porter Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #582 Date: 01 Jul 2000 23:05:51 -0500 >My question is, If the Frenchman couldnt make it of >the Tx gulf coastcause of the Indians and gators and >such, how the blazes did they make it all the way up >the big muddy to Canada?? The small band of La Salle loyalists stopped at Arkansas Post first. The guys at the fort were so happy to see them that they fire a solute with their cannons. Hope this helps a little. YMHS Matt Porter ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Grey Owl Date: 02 Jul 2000 02:22:01 EDT Grey Owl (1888-1939) was the name used by George Stansfeld Belaney in writing and lecturing about wildlife. He actually lived the life of a Canadian Indian and wrote about the animals he saw. His writing, which was mostly about beavers, stirred interest in conservation. Tales of an Empty Cabin (1936) is one of his best books. His true identity was not generally known until after his death. He claimed he was born in Mexico, but he was probably born in Hastings, England. (World Book Encyclopedia) Wind1838 P.S. I saw the film flying on Delta last summer. Was surprised to see the individual credited with the reclamation of the beaver population in North America appearing as Pierce Brosnan. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "P. Amschler" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patriot! Date: 02 Jul 2000 01:19:03 -0700 I must fully agree! The only problem was with the wifalunit, she is 7 weeks with child and said it was a bit TOO intense for her. (She loves the good old shoot'm up lot's of action and blood normally). She was either crying or running off:) But after all was said and over she liked it also. --- amschlers@mailcity.com Send FREE Greetings for Father's Day--or any day! Click here: http://www.whowhere.lycos.com/redirects/fathers_day.rdct ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Robert Thomson" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patriot! Date: 02 Jul 2000 06:33:43 PDT It was an excellent film. It was mostly well done, technically speaking, though I would love to have one of those super-accurate muskets or pisotls!! It has a great moral to it, and demonstrates what it was kind of Hell all of the patriots went through. Robert "Thanks to kind Providence, here I am again at good old Fort Union" Charles Larpenteur, 1838 ---- Robert Thomson AMF Co Fort Union ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Patriot! Date: 02 Jul 2000 09:07:44 -0600 On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana Robert Thomson AMF Co Fort Union Where are you located? Walt ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Robert Thomson" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Patriot! Date: 02 Jul 2000 17:12:28 PDT Fort Union Trading Post National Historic Site 25 miles southwest of Williston, ND (1 mile west of the confluence of the Yellowstone and Missouri). Robert ----Original Message Follows---- Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana Robert Thomson AMF Co Fort Union Where are you located? Walt ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Patriot! Date: 02 Jul 2000 22:15:37 -0600 On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana Hi Robert, I am about 240 miles above Ft. Union on the Yellowstone. Are you employed by the Ft.? Walt Fort Union Trading Post National Historic Site 25 miles southwest of Williston, ND (1 mile west of the confluence of the Yellowstone and Missouri). Robert ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Robert Thomson" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Patriot! Date: 03 Jul 2000 06:29:49 PDT Yes, I am a Park Ranger with the NPS. Been working here at Union since 1995, and I worked down to Fort Laramie before that. Robert "Thanks to kind Providence, here I am again at good old Fort Union" Charles Larpenteur, 1838 ---- Robert Thomson AMF Co Fort Union ----Original Message Follows---- Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana Hi Robert, I am about 240 miles above Ft. Union on the Yellowstone. Are you employed by the Ft.? Walt ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: When did it end? Date: 03 Jul 2000 09:50:48 -0600 John, You have asked some tough questions, which most like to stay away from if possible. And since I've not heard much of a response, if any on your questions, I'll give it my best shot. Many people do consider the end of the offical rendezvous system as the end of the peroid of the mountain man. It gives a easy end and beginning to a peroid which could streach from 1807- 1848 in the U.S.. But you are right, many of the men who we consider as important in this time frame lived well before and after the 1820-40 dates. Most changed occupations, moved back east or headed some where else thatn prime beaver country. But even when you use the !840 date as the 'end of the peroid, you can make a case that it ended about two years eariler, the missioniares showed up, signifing a drastic change, and the Hudson Bay Co.'s Francis Ermatinger said only 125 men were at that one with about 2000 beaver and otter traded. No one know if the 1839 meeting would take place. The next two rendezvous did take place, but were nothing like the earlier ones. I tend to go for the 1821-1848 time frame in Colorado where I live. We had Fowler go up the Arkansas in '21 and by '48 the country was crawling with settlers and miners going further west. The fur trade posts and trading houses shifted business to as you said buffalo tongues and robes and more trading mostly with the indians/ emigrants. There were actually much going on before Fowler's date but it was exploring, trading with indians and not true trapping. (guess it depends on if the whole time frame is built around the trappers only, or includes the western adventurers, private individuals and gov. explorers.) What is the true time frame of our mountain men? Probably their heydays- 1826-36. A small time frame. But alot was happening in the back ground which effected the trappers and their traders. Many good people came west after this date which we consider as part of it. I don't consider anything with the Indian wars as "mountain men", even though some were scouts. The questions you asked are tough ones. And this is only my opinion. When some one pops up in the fur trade and goes on to do other things (guides for a gov. exploring or for any one on the western trails) I do give him his proper place. But may not use some of the tools and equipment which he did in later life. Sorry for the long reply. mike. Hawkengun@aol.com wrote: > Here are some questions that I hope folks feel inspired to respond to.... > > When did the Rocky Mountain fur trade-era actually end? > Did it end, as Hafen argues (Mountain Men and the Fur Trade, v.1), that the > era essentially ended at the close of the 1840 roundezvous? Although it > seems clear that buffalo robes surpassed beaver plews in economic importance > sometime during the 1840s-50s, trade in beaver and other fine furs never > stopped (continued down to today, or course.) Carson, Williams and others > were leading trapping expeditions into the mountains well after the last > roundezvous. So when should we set the historic "cut-off date" for the era? > > Or more specifically, were the trappers that remained in the west still to be > considered "mountain men," or is that a title that should be reserved for the > pre-1840 days? What about men that came west after 1840, hooked-up with > older mountaineers, made their way as trappers and Indian fighters, later > served as scouts for the Army-- can they be accurately called "mountain men"? > > John R. Sweet > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DAVID ALBAUGH" Date: 03 Jul 2000 11:27:07 EDT GREETINGS, THIS CAME ACROSS MY TERMINAL, IT IS NOT ORIGINAL, I AM JUST PASSING THIS ALONG, I HAVE NOT CHECKED OUT THE FACTS OR HISTORY, BUT IT IS TIME SENSITIVE, SO I AM SENDING IT ON AS IS, BECAUSE TOMORROW IS INDEPENDENCE DAY. EVERYTHING HAS A COST, SOME WANT EVERYTHING FOR FREE, SOME WANT A BARGAIN, SOME ARE WILLING TO PAY LIST, SOME ARE WILLING TO PAY EVERYTHING THAT THEY HAVE, OR EVER WILL HAVE, I THANK AND HONOR THESE FOUNDING FATHER'S TOMORROW, AND PERHAPS WE SHOULD EVERY DAY! "HAVE YOU EVER WONDERED WHAT HAPPENED TO THE 56 MEN WHO SIGNED THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE? FIVE SIGNERS WERE CAPTURED BY THE BRITISH AS TRAITORS, AND TORTURED BEFOR THEY DIED. TWELVE HAD THEIR HOMES RANSACKED AND BURNED. TWO LOST THEIR SONS SERVING IN THE REVOLUTIONARY ARMY; ANOTHER HAD TWO SONS CAPTURED. NINE OF THE 56 FOUGHT AND DIED FROM WOUNDS OR HARDSHIPS OF THE CONFLICT. THEY SIGNED AND PLEDGED THEIR LIVES, THEIR FORTUNES, AND THEIR SACRED HONOR. WHAT KIND OF MEN WERE THEY? 24 WERE LAWYERS AND JURISTS. 11 WERE MERCHANTS, 9 WERE FARMERS AND LARGE PLANTATION OWNERS; MEN OF MEANS, WELL EDUCATED. BUT THEY SIGNED THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE KNOWING FULL WELL THAT THE PENALTY WOULD BE DEATH IF THEY WERE CAPTURED. CARTER BRAXTON OF VIRGINIA, A WEALTHY PLANTER AND TRADER, SAW HIS SHIPS SWEPT FROM THE SEAS BY THE BRITISH NAVY. HE SOLD HIS HOME AND PROPERITIES TO PAY HIS DEBTS, AND DIED IN RAGS. THOMAS ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: When did it end? Date: 03 Jul 2000 11:52:22 EDT John, There is one other reason for the 1840 cutoff date which is commonly used by Rendevous organizers .....to keep Civil War reenactors from attending their events. The country was built on the fur trade, and the actual Fur Trade Era runs from the late 1600's and the French, and culminates with the Rocky Mountain fur traders. There is a paradigm shift which happened around that time in clothing, mechanization, social attitudes and other things. The US became civilized, a fact much lamented by the RMFT's who saw their way of life ending. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "atthesea" Subject: MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry Rifle Date: 03 Jul 2000 09:57:58 -0700 Hello the List: Have a question. Has anyone out there had any experience with the EuroArms 1803 Harpers Ferry Rifle? Have been looking in that direction based on Capt. Lewis' analysis that the rifle was, in effect, hardier than the Kentucky Rifle of the period. Can anyone recommend for or against this rifle? I am a shooter, not a mechanic and would like to have a rock sparker that did not need major tune ups, regularily, to just go shootin' or to harvest some meat. Am not physically able to do the in-depth "hunt" treck thing, but would like a reliable rifle to take along for my time in the woods and at the firing line. Any help and/or recommendations will be most appreciated. atthesea@gte.net Thanks in advance for your time and advice. Regards, John Barber ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Vic Barkin Subject: Re: MtMan-List: When did it end? Date: 03 Jul 2000 10:05:41 -0700 You can also add to the list of why 1840 was decided as the modern rendezvous cutoff as far as choosing a nice round number, if 1850 were chosen, the Mexican War would have a great impact on the vision of how we interpret the RM fur trade today. it wasn't because traders didn't trade and trappers didn't trap after 1840, it was because of the profound changes in the mountain economy, the coming of the Army, the immigrants, the missionarys and the gold seekers, all of which served to force the establishment of more forts and posts on the frontier. This is what caused the end of a free way of life we so admire and emulate. It was, after all an end caused by their own actions. B Dawg >John, >There is one other reason for the 1840 cutoff date which is commonly used by >Rendevous organizers .....to keep Civil War reenactors from attending their >events. > >The country was built on the fur trade, and the actual Fur Trade Era runs >from the late 1600's and the French, and culminates with the Rocky Mountain >fur traders. >There is a paradigm shift which happened around that time in clothing, >mechanization, social attitudes and other things. The US became civilized, a >fact much lamented by the RMFT's who saw their way of life ending. > >Dave Kanger > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Vic Nathan Barkin CGCM Printing and Reproduction Services Manager Northern Arizona University Office of Public Affairs and Marketing Creative Communications Department Box 4101, Flagstaff, Az 86011 ph. 520-523-6160 fax 520 523-5060 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry Rifle Date: 03 Jul 2000 11:44:44 -0600 Sir, If this rifle is like the one produced by "Navy Arms" then it is wrong. The lock won't spark and the caliber is .58 mini. If it is .54 cal round ball then you must find someone who own's one. If I were looking for an inexpensive flinter I would ge a hold of "Caywood" and see what suit's you. If you have an inkling for a realy good rifle get a look at some of the custom makers in your area and start saving your money, you won't be sorry. Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "atthesea" >To: "Mountain Man List" >Subject: MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry Rifle >Date: Mon, Jul 3, 2000, 10:57 AM > >Hello the List: >Have a question. Has anyone out there had any experience with the EuroArms >1803 Harpers Ferry Rifle? Have been looking in that direction based on >Capt. Lewis' analysis that the rifle was, in effect, hardier than the >Kentucky Rifle of the period. Can anyone recommend for or against this >rifle? I am a shooter, not a mechanic and would like to have a rock sparker >that did not need major tune ups, regularily, to just go shootin' or to >harvest some meat. Am not physically able to do the in-depth "hunt" treck >thing, but would like a reliable rifle to take along for my time in the >woods and at the firing line. Any help and/or recommendations will be most >appreciated. >atthesea@gte.net >Thanks in advance for your time and advice. >Regards, >John Barber > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: When did it end? Date: 03 Jul 2000 13:59:51 EDT Hallo the List, The Spring 2000 copy of "The Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly" addresses this very question, with 'The Myth of the Silk Hat and the End of the Rendezvous" by James A Hanson. A very good read and research paper. I won't go into any long quotes but "....there is some good evidence to contradict that date "(1840 as being the last rendezvous) "In 1841 beaver trappers gathered at what was then termed a rendezvous on the Green River." "Bill Hamilton left a lively account...gathering...1842" ....and...a "curious rendezvous" in 1843, Drummond and Sublette lead a large party of sportemen, hunters, and old trappers and meet a dozen or so trappers on the Sweetwater. What I found fascinating was the "Importation of Beaver Pelts to England" from Hudson's Bay, US and other Sources... A list from 1820 -1860 1822 US&NWco. 65,652 HBC 59,847 (!) 1840 US 975(!!) HBC 55,431 1860 US 28,0404 HBC 107,745(!!!) Kinda makes you think they only wiped out the beaver is certain areas, and even then they came back. I'd sure recommend subscribing to the Quarterly... Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Terry R. Koenig" Subject: MtMan-List: When dit it end? Date: 03 Jul 2000 12:10:42 -0600 Fur trade historian Hiram Chittenden in his Vol. I pg. 3 of "American Fur Trade of the Far West, " Univ. of Neb. Press 1986, pretty well firms up what many have already noted on this topic. "The fur trade of the Missouri valley began early in the eighteenth century, but it did not assume large proportions until after the session of Louisiana to the United States and the exploring expeditions of Lewis and Clark and Pike. Its career thereafter continued practically unchecked until the tide of western emigration set in, about 1843. The true period of the trans-Mississippi fur trade therefore embraces the thirty-seven years from 1807 to 1843." In the same volume in the authors preface (p. xxvii) Chittenden noted: "In the year 1843 James Bridger, whose name will always be prominent in annals of Western adventure, built a post on a tributary of Green River a water of the Pacific Ocean, for the convenience of emigrants. It was the first trading post beyond the Mississippi ever built for this purpose, and its establishments marks the beginning of the era of emigration into the Far West." "These two landmarks - the return of Lewis and Clark and the founding of Ft. Bridger - determine the limits of a distinct period in Western history." Terry R. Koenig ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "atthesea" Subject: MtMan-List: 1803 Rifle Date: 03 Jul 2000 11:19:00 -0700 Thanks. But just what or who is "Caywood?" Thanks. Regards, John Barber ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1803 Rifle Date: 03 Jul 2000 12:48:31 -0700 Take a look and see! http://www.caywoodguns.com/ Nuthin' but the best!!!!!! Frank atthesea wrote: > Thanks. But just what or who is "Caywood?" > Thanks. > Regards, > John Barber > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: PappyCton@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patriot! w/ 2 detours and 411 request Date: 03 Jul 2000 15:50:57 EDT Saw the movie yesterday, pleasantly suprised at the movie. My family tradition tells me, that my Gaelic-Briton ancestors came here as `indentured servants'. On asking my grandfather if that was like an apprentice, he told me that it was more like a slave. Grandma said that the `spirits' roamed the towns and countryside, rounding up stray men, women and children for the colonies. I found a book once (sorry, don't recall author or title), that stated that the spirits were given bounties on each head brought to shipment. Also, that since this predated the british involvement in the African slave trade, that ordinary merchant vessels were used and that the death rate was 3 out of 4 in passage. Any suggestions on finding source material, books on the subject, or family oral traditions to share, regarding the british involvement in de facto white slavery, please respond. PappyCton@aol.com The only truly objectionable parts were the two drunken viewers `spittin' an' arguin' across the aisle. It seemed they bought tickets only to ridicule the movie (and, American Independence). They were foreigners- I won't mention the nationality, since many good people have come from their homeland. Suffice to say, I got a little hot (like baby sister on prom night). We took it outside towards the last 20 minutes, and there they remained. Free speech is one thing, but insults and mockery on about 60 other viewers dime ( eight dollars, actually), and on our most sacred national holiday- my tolerance was lacking, I reckon. However, teens working the theatre for minimum wage didn't seem to mind, and several viewers thanked me. Do you think it's wrong to use more than civil requests on the uncivil and hostile members in society? Does every earnest affront to social gatherings have to be handled with tact and discretion? Were our forebears brutish and subject to rash action, as politically correct notions suggest? Penny fer yer thoughts. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DAVID ALBAUGH" Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: Fw: Date: 03 Jul 2000 16:14:12 EDT >From: "Jesse Huff" >To: >Subject: Fw: >Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 13:47:06 -0700 > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: DAVID ALBAUGH >To: ; ; ; >; ; ; >; ; ; >; ; >; >; ; ; >; ; >; ; >; ; >; ; > >Sent: Monday, July 03, 2000 10:14 AM >Subject: Fwd: > > > > > > > > > > >From: "DAVID ALBAUGH" > > >Reply-To: ammlist@lists.xmission.com > > >To: jtblackhunter@hotmail.com, drose@uplogon.com, amm1370@aol.com, > > >folsen@up.net, amm1044@webtv.net, jnclink@gte.net, >ndrudge@hoosierlink.net, > > > dixie@up.net, jehuff@up.net, sunnysundquist@yahoo.com, > > >raymondmaki@hotmail.com, rmcguire@scrtc.com, drudy@xmission.com, > > >OSFDiana@hotmail.com, bcunningham@gwe.net, albaughed@hotmail.com, > > >balbaugh@dmdhd.localhealth.net, jrdehlin@bresnanlink.net, > > >backcountry@braintan.com, hist_text@xmission.com, >robwsalmi@hotmail.com, > > >tihuff@up.net, tominbarkriver@webtv.net, tony.creekmore@scott.af.mil, > > >cbelanger@portup.com, ammlist@xmission.com > > >Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 11:27:07 EDT > > > > > >GREETINGS, THIS CAME ACROSS MY TERMINAL, IT IS NOT ORIGINAL, I AM JUST > > >PASSING THIS ALONG, I HAVE NOT CHECKED OUT THE FACTS OR HISTORY, BUT IT >IS > > >TIME SENSITIVE, SO I AM SENDING IT ON AS IS, BECAUSE TOMORROW IS > > >INDEPENDENCE DAY. EVERYTHING HAS A COST, SOME WANT EVERYTHING FOR >FREE, > > >SOME WANT A BARGAIN, SOME ARE WILLING TO PAY LIST, SOME ARE WILLING TO >PAY > > >EVERYTHING THAT THEY HAVE, OR EVER WILL HAVE, I THANK AND HONOR THESE > > >FOUNDING FATHER'S TOMORROW, AND PERHAPS WE SHOULD EVERY DAY! > > >"HAVE > > >YOU EVER WONDERED WHAT HAPPENED TO THE 56 MEN WHO SIGNED THE >DECLARATION >OF > > >INDEPENDENCE? FIVE SIGNERS WERE CAPTURED BY THE BRITISH AS TRAITORS, >AND > > >TORTURED BEFOR THEY DIED. TWELVE HAD THEIR HOMES RANSACKED AND BURNED. > > >TWO > > >LOST THEIR SONS SERVING IN THE REVOLUTIONARY ARMY; ANOTHER HAD TWO SONS > > >CAPTURED. NINE OF THE 56 FOUGHT AND DIED FROM WOUNDS OR HARDSHIPS OF >THE > > >CONFLICT. THEY SIGNED AND PLEDGED THEIR LIVES, THEIR FORTUNES, AND >THEIR > > >SACRED HONOR. WHAT KIND OF MEN WERE THEY? 24 WERE LAWYERS AND >JURISTS. >11 > > >WERE MERCHANTS, 9 WERE FARMERS AND LARGE PLANTATION OWNERS; MEN OF >MEANS, > > >WELL EDUCATED. BUT THEY SIGNED THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE KNOWING > > >FULL > > >WELL THAT THE PENALTY WOULD BE DEATH IF THEY WERE CAPTURED. CARTER >BRAXTON > > >OF VIRGINIA, A WEALTHY PLANTER AND TRADER, SAW HIS SHIPS SWEPT FROM THE > > >SEAS > > >BY THE BRITISH NAVY. HE SOLD HIS HOME AND PROPERITIES TO PAY HIS DEBTS, >AND > > >DIED IN RAGS. THOMAS MCKEAM WAS SO HOUNDED BY THE BRITISH THAT HE WAS > > >FORCED TO MOVE HIS FAMILY ALMOST CONSTANTLY. HE SERVED IN THE CONGRESS > > >WITHOUT PAY, AND HIS FAMILY WAS KEPT IN HIDING. HIS POSSESSIONS WERE >TAKEN > > >FROM HIM, AND POVERTY WAS HIS REWARD. VANDALS OR SOLDIERS LOOTED THE > > >PROPERTIES OF DILLERY, HALL, CLYMER, WALTON, GWINNETT, HEYWARD, >RUTTLEDGE, > > >AND MIDDLETON. AT THE BATTLE OF YORKTOWN, THOMAS NELSON JR., NOTED >THAT > > >THE BRITISH GENERAL CORNWALLIS HAD TAKEN OVER THE NELSON HOME FOR HIS > > >HEADQUARTERS. NELSON QUIETLY URGED GENERAL WASHINGTON TO OPEN FIRE. >THE > > >HOME WAS DESTROYED, AND NELSON DIED BANKRUPT. FRANCIS LEWIS HAD HIS >HOME > > >AND PROPERTIES DESTROYED. THE ENEMY JAILED HIS WIFE, AND SHE DIED >WITHIN >A > > >FEW MONTHS. JOHN HART WAS DRIVEN FROM HIS WIFE'S BEDSIDE AS SHE WAS >DYING. > > > THEIR THIRTEEN CHILDREN FLED FOR THEIR LIVES. HIS FIELDS AND HIS > > >GRISTMILL WERE LAID TO WASTE. FOR MORE THAN A YEAR HE LIVED IN FORESTS >AND > > >CAVES, RETURNING TO HIS HOME TO FIND HIS WIFE DEAD AND HIS CHILDREN > > >VANISHED. A FEW WEEKS LATER HE DIED FROM EXHAUSTION AND A BROKEN >HEART. > > >NORRIS AND LIVINGSTON SUFFERED SIMILAR FATES. SUCH WERE THE STORIES >AND > > >SACRIFICES OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION. THESE WERE NOT WILD-EYED, > > >RABBLE-ROUSING RUFFIANS. THEY WERE SOFT-SPOKEN MEN OF MEANS AND >EDUCATION. > > >THEY HAD SECURITY, BUT THEY PLEDGED: "FOR THE SUPPORT OF THIS >DECLARATION, > > >WITH FIRM RELIANCE ON THE PROTECTION OF THE DIVINE PROVIDENCE, WE >MUTUALLY > > >PLEDGE TO EACH OTHER, OUR LIVES, OUR FORTUNES, AND OUR SACRED HONOR." >THEY > > >GAVE YOU AND ME A FREE AND INDEPENDENT AMERICA. THE HISTORY BOOKS >NEVER > > >TOLD YOU ALOT ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN THE REVOLUTIONARY WAR. WE DIDN'T > > >FIGHT JUST THE BRITISH. WE WERE BRITISH SUBJECTS AT THAT TIME AND WE >FOUGHT > > >OUR OWN GOVERNMENT! SOME OF US TAKE THESE LIBERTIES SO MUCH FOR >GRANTED, > > >BUT WE SHOULDN'T. SO, TAKE A FEW MINUTES WHILE ENJOYING YOUR 4TH OF >JULY > > >HOLIDAY AND SILENTLY THANK THESE PATRIOTS. IT'S NOT SO MUCH TO ASK FOR >THE > > >PRICE THEY PAID. REMEMBER: FREEDOM IS NEVER FREE!" I WOULD ADD >REMEMBER > > >ALL THE VETS AND THEIR FAMILIES WHO HAVE PAID THE PRICE FOR OUR >FREEDOM. > > >SORRY ABOUT THE COMPUTER SLIP UP AND THE TWO POSTINGS. YMHOS DAVID >ALBAUGH > > > AUX ALIMENTS DE PAYS > > > >________________________________________________________________________ > > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at >http://www.hotmail.com > > > > > > > > >-------------------- > > >Aux Aliments de Pays! > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patriot! w/ 2 detours and 411 request Date: 03 Jul 2000 17:17:56 -0400 Do you think it's wrong to use more than civil requests on the uncivil and hostile members in society? *********************** Absolutely not!! Sometimes that is all that is understood. If tact and diplomacy fail, time to use other methods... Ad Miller ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D J PAWLEY" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry Rifle Date: 04 Jul 2000 09:23:20 +1200 Giday the list from New Zealand ,John I can reccomend the Caywood Lock Ihave been useing one on my Flinter for 5yrs target shooting as wellas deer stalking ,all year down here, to all on the list great reading . keep your Powder Dry Derek "Kiwi" Pawley -----Original Message----- >Sir, >If this rifle is like the one produced by "Navy Arms" then it is wrong. The >lock won't spark and the caliber is .58 mini. If it is .54 cal round ball >then you must find someone who own's one. If I were looking for an >inexpensive flinter I would ge a hold of "Caywood" and see what suit's you. >If you have an inkling for a realy good rifle get a look at some of the >custom makers in your area and start saving your money, you won't be sorry. >Ole # 718 >---------- >>From: "atthesea" >>To: "Mountain Man List" >>Subject: MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry Rifle >>Date: Mon, Jul 3, 2000, 10:57 AM >> > >>Hello the List: >>Have a question. Has anyone out there had any experience with the EuroArms >>1803 Harpers Ferry Rifle? Have been looking in that direction based on >>Capt. Lewis' analysis that the rifle was, in effect, hardier than the >>Kentucky Rifle of the period. Can anyone recommend for or against this >>rifle? I am a shooter, not a mechanic and would like to have a rock sparker >>that did not need major tune ups, regularily, to just go shootin' or to >>harvest some meat. Am not physically able to do the in-depth "hunt" treck >>thing, but would like a reliable rifle to take along for my time in the >>woods and at the firing line. Any help and/or recommendations will be most >>appreciated. >>atthesea@gte.net >>Thanks in advance for your time and advice. >>Regards, >>John Barber >> >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Robert Thomson" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: comments on several things Date: 03 Jul 2000 17:03:31 PDT On the 1803 by Euroarms: I have one. It is a .54 not a .58 and it is 1000 percent better than the old Navy Arms version. I also know four other people that own them and say the same things about them. On the end of the Rocky Mountain trade: I agree that most recognize 1840 as the end of the Rocky Mountain trade, even though some folk continued to trap even into the early 1850's. However, just because the Rocky Mountain system ended, did not mean that the trade in general was over. The Upper Missouri buffalo robe trade would continue for nearly three decades (Fort Union closed in 1867) with the peak not coming until the late 1840's-early 1850's. On people talking in the theatre: By all means use less civil means to get them to shut up. I have always found that a stern "Please shut up" usually works, but there are some that need more encouragement. Sincerely, Robert "Thanks to kind Providence, here I am again at good old Fort Union" Charles Larpenteur, 1838 ---- Robert Thomson AMF Co Fort Union ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry Rifle Date: 03 Jul 2000 19:12:13 -0700 John, I owned one of the EuroArms Harpers Ferry Rifle, I bought it from Cabella's Catalog. A friend of mine with good credentials said it was a fine example of the original, considering it was a factory made copy. I found it to be quite barrel heavy. I couldn't seem to hit anything with it, this may have been this particular gun- or me. I had fun with it for awhile, then sold it for what I paid for it. Mine was a sturdy gun, and fired well... I just had trouble with aiming it, granted I didn't work with it much, trying loads, etc... If you have any particular questions, contact me off-list. hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patriot! w/ 2 detours and 411 request Date: 03 Jul 2000 20:48:31 -0700 Well, ya know...if a polite request isn't sufficient then you are probably dealing with someone who might not hesitate to become very violent. I guess the question each individual has to ask is how good am I at sizing up strangers and how far am I willing to escalate the situation to make my point. Frank Addison Miller wrote: > Do you think it's wrong to use more than civil requests on the uncivil and > hostile > members in society? > > *********************** > > Absolutely not!! Sometimes that is all that is understood. If tact and > diplomacy fail, time to use other methods... > > Ad Miller > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Date: 03 Jul 2000 23:20:54 -0500 Here's another version of the same: http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/jacoby1.asp At 11:27 AM 7/3/00 -0400, you wrote: >GREETINGS, THIS CAME ACROSS MY TERMINAL, IT IS NOT ORIGINAL, I AM JUST >PASSING THIS ALONG, I HAVE NOT CHECKED OUT THE FACTS OR HISTORY, BUT IT IS >TIME SENSITIVE, SO I AM SENDING IT ON AS IS, BECAUSE TOMORROW IS >INDEPENDENCE DAY. EVERYTHING HAS A COST, SOME WANT EVERYTHING FOR FREE, >SOME WANT A BARGAIN, SOME ARE WILLING TO PAY LIST, SOME ARE WILLING TO PAY >EVERYTHING THAT THEY HAVE, OR EVER WILL HAVE, I THANK AND HONOR THESE >FOUNDING FATHER'S TOMORROW, AND PERHAPS WE SHOULD EVERY DAY! (snip) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint doubles Date: 02 Jul 2000 23:21:30 -0500 At 07:15 AM 7/1/00 -0700, Buck wrote: >On Fri, 30 June 2000, Concho Smith wrote: > > John, > > Not only does Buck have a nice original flint side by side made by > TWIGG in 16ga., he has a nice repro of a West Richards flint side by side > in 20ga. I........ > > Concho. >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >Concho, >You talk to much, expected to see lots of stuff on list, everyone laying >low for the long weekend ! Coming in from Utah last night traffic wasn't >that bad going east or west. Let's keep our fingers crossed that everyone >has a safe weekend. > >Later >Buck Conner >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Thanks for the tip Concho. Hey Buck, Now that the cats out of the bag. What do you want in trade? I've all sorts of fine and fancy notions, potions, nostrums and lotions to cure the ills of mind body and soul. Geegaws, foofooraw and plunder to dazzle and delight even the jaded ladies of the night. What is your pleasure? I've got a pretty good birch-bark canoe up in the rafters, bunch of old original junk gathering dust. Amen on that safe holiday wish for all. John... The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to permit the conquered Eastern peoples to have arms. History teaches that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so. -- Hitler, April 11 1942, revealing the real agenda of "gun control" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patriot! w/ 2 detours and 411 request Date: 03 Jul 2000 23:23:22 -0500 T'was a nobler age when you could give such rapscallions the choice of=20 pistols or swords at dawn. John... At 05:17 PM 7/3/00 -0400, you wrote: > Do you think it's wrong to use more than civil requests on the uncivil= and >hostile > members in society? > >*********************** John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Hawkengun@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: When dit it end? Date: 04 Jul 2000 04:13:25 EDT But the purpose of my post was to question the long-held idea espoused by Hafen, Chittenden and others that the fur-trade era "ended" in the 1840s. It sounds like scholars such as James Hanson have also been questioning that long-held assumption, and I figured it might be interesting to hear what some or you all think about it. I figured that some would confuse the concept of the "historical era" with the period chosen for reenacting. And that is understandable since this is a reenactors' list. What most historians try to keep in sight is the idea that eras are always (ultimately) arbitrary and subject to question. Thought that the notion of the "fur-trade era" is due for some reassessment, although I'm not arguing that your reenactment criteria should change. jr sweet ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flint doubles Date: 04 Jul 2000 06:49:39 -0700 On Sun, 02 July 2000, John Kramer wrote: > > > > On Fri, 30 June 2000, Concho Smith wrote: > > > John, > > > Not only does Buck have a nice original flint side by side made by TWIGG in 16ga., he has a nice repro of a West Richards flint side by side in 20ga. I........ > > > Concho. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Thanks for the tip Concho. > > Hey Buck, > > Now that the cats out of the bag. > > What do you want in trade? > > I've all sorts of fine and fancy notions, potions, nostrums and lotions to cure the ills of mind body and soul. > > Geegaws, foofooraw and plunder to dazzle and delight even the jaded ladies of the night. > > What is your pleasure? I've got a pretty good birch-bark canoe up in the rafters, bunch of old original junk gathering dust. > > Amen on that safe holiday wish for all. > > John... John, The two side by side flinters that Concho mentioned are keepers for now (you know how that goes), just picked up another side by side flint, Russ Hamn locks, 20ga., walnut wood, pretty plain - no checkering, very good to excellent cond. - good working gun. Before considering anything would like to take it out and see what it will do, pattern, etc. I'll let you know what I decide. Over the years I've had "real keepers", that where traded for other "really good keepers", and somehow they just slipped away - like horse tradin'. Later Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ CLARK & SONS MERCANTILE, INC. "One who trades" "Uno quien negocia" "Unquil Commerce" English Spanish French *Period grains *mill items *cookware *camp equipage* & much, much more. ~~~~~~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ ~~~~~~ Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Smith Subject: Re: [RE: MtMan-List: Patriot!] Date: 04 Jul 2000 10:08:11 EDT Just saw the movie with some historians I work with, most agreed it was b= etter than most things that Hollywood puts out. Kind of a take off on "Revoluti= on" story line with "Brave Heart" thrown in for the final scenes. According to some Mark Baker was removed from the set, but according to n= ew issue of muzzleloader - Mark's story he had a good time. Frank House's na= me showed in the credit's but didn't see Mark's. Saw many we know as back ground actors, have talked to several and have h= eard different stories to what happened to Baker ! Whatever, sometimes a hero = - sometimes a ........ whatever ??? Concho. ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm= ail.netscape.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Smith Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Flint doubles] Date: 04 Jul 2000 10:19:35 EDT Hey I want in on this deal if there going to be a trade or sale on the la= test flint double. Keeper your butt, that's like the time you bought Old West = Arms supply of Sharps (10 or 12 guns), "they're keepers Concho". Then one of the big boys come along and makes an offer and you let them g= o, for some crazy trade and cash. I know I only wanted one or two and this w= as a package deal...... Do you feel sorry for me yet, come on Buck - really feel sorry for me and= let me be first, I do need a double flinter, John just wants to play with his= nick-nacks for trade. Concho. ________________________________________________________ > Hey Buck, > = > Now that the cats out of the bag. > = > What do you want in trade? > = > I've all sorts of fine and fancy notions, potions, nostrums and lotions= to cure the ills of mind body and soul. > = > Geegaws, foofooraw and plunder to dazzle and delight even the jaded lad= ies = of the night. > = > What is your pleasure? I've got a pretty good birch-bark canoe up in t= he rafters, bunch of old original junk gathering dust. > = > Amen on that safe holiday wish for all. > = > John... John, The two side by side flinters that Concho mentioned are keepers for now (= you know how that goes), just picked up another side by side flint, Russ Hamn= locks, 20ga., walnut wood, pretty plain - no checkering, very good to excellent cond. - good working gun. Before considering anything would lik= e to take it out and see what it will do, pattern, etc. I'll let you know what= I decide. Over the years I've had "real keepers", that where traded for other "real= ly good keepers", and somehow they just slipped away - like horse tradin'. Later Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm= ail.netscape.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: [RE: MtMan-List: Patriot!] Date: 04 Jul 2000 07:36:38 -0700 On Tue, 04 July 2000, Concho Smith wrote: > > Just saw the movie with some historians I work with, most agreed it was better than most things that Hollywood puts out. Kind of a take off on "Revolution" story line with "Brave Heart" thrown in for the final scenes. > > According to some Mark Baker was removed from the set, but according to new issue of muzzleloader - Mark's story he had a good time. Frank House's name showed in the credit's but didn't see Mark's........ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Had the same thought's and only saw Frank's name, never the less it was worth the fee. Did you notice where Mel was wearing his mil.leg ties, half way up the thigh and by the time to made the run with the flag they where around his ankles. Bet that worked good in long grass and under brush. Surprised they didn't catch that after picking him up a few times. Later Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ CLARK & SONS MERCANTILE, INC. "One who trades" "Uno quien negocia" "Unquil Commerce" English Spanish French *Period grains *mill items *cookware *camp equipage* & much, much more. ~~~~~~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ ~~~~~~ Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Flint doubles] Date: 04 Jul 2000 07:43:31 -0700 On Tue, 04 July 2000, Concho Smith wrote: > Do you feel sorry for me yet, come on Buck - really feel sorry for me and let me be first, I do need a double flinter, John just wants to play with his > nick-nacks for trade. > > Concho. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Concho, I do not feel sorry for you, you have done that act many times and I have given in more than once you turd. I do not want your unclaimed kids or that piece of junk truck in trade, enough said. Once I test this flinter, then and only then will I decide if it is for sale at a fair price - like cash, you know the paper kind - American. Wait until John reads your last e-mail, he'll rip your freaken face off. Later Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ CLARK & SONS MERCANTILE, INC. "One who trades" "Uno quien negocia" "Unquil Commerce" English Spanish French *Period grains *mill items *cookware *camp equipage* & much, much more. ~~~~~~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ ~~~~~~ Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Flint doubles] Date: 04 Jul 2000 10:50:13 -0400 Gee, if we are going to all play, can I??? Out of dead Presidents now, but I can be handy with hammer & iron... Mrs. Jager is lonely for some of her old "roomies".... D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronald Schrotter Subject: MtMan-List: 1803 Rifle Date: 04 Jul 2000 08:09:12 -0700 (PDT) I don't know if the Euroarms Harpers Ferry is the same as the Navy Arms model or not, but I had 2 from Navy and yes Ole, I know the originals were .54 and not .58, but I think it is one of the best looking rifles around. The first one was terrible to shoot, so I got rid of it. The second one started out the same way, but I worked with the lock for a while, smoothing the spring, rehardened the frizzen, etc. and finally got it to the point where it could be fired even on a running horse. The only thing wrong with it was the mainspring is so strong that the gun had a tendency to rock to the right when fired, which raised Hell with accuracy. I solved that problem by converting it to caplock, shortening the throw, and having a custom.40 caliber flinter built. I still have the converted gun, it still shoots well, and is sturdy enough to withstand the rigors of any trail I would ever try. And yes it will shoot patched roundballs as well as minie balls. Dog, Gabe's Hole Brigade __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Flint doubles] Date: 04 Jul 2000 09:04:30 -0700 On Tue, 04 July 2000, "Dennis Miles" wrote: > > Gee, if we are going to all play, can I??? Out of dead Presidents now, but I > can be handy with hammer & iron... > > Mrs. Jager is lonely for some of her old "roomies".... > D ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I understand you will be paying a visit with Mr.Jones, sorry Pablo - that's you. Later Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ CLARK & SONS MERCANTILE, INC. "One who trades" "Uno quien negocia" "Unquil Commerce" English Spanish French *Period grains *mill items *cookware *camp equipage* & much, much more. ~~~~~~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ ~~~~~~ Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Flint doubles] Date: 04 Jul 2000 13:00:28 -0400 Buck 'Tis a real possibility of it... Possibly have a BIG order coming up, if so, I won't have time to go, as it will be on a deadline and timetable... Fookin' shop sure cuts into my play time.. D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Flint doubles] Date: 04 Jul 2000 13:08:22 -0700 On Tue, 04 July 2000, "Dennis Miles" wrote: > > Buck > 'Tis a real possibility of it... Possibly have a BIG order coming up, if so, > I won't have time to go, as it will be on a deadline and timetable... > Fookin' shop sure cuts into my play time.. > D Amen Later Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ CLARK & SONS MERCANTILE, INC. "One who trades" "Uno quien negocia" "Unquil Commerce" English Spanish French *Period grains *mill items *cookware *camp equipage* & much, much more. ~~~~~~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ ~~~~~~ Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Huntershorn1@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: question Date: 04 Jul 2000 16:34:30 EDT Can you tell the difference in smoked cow hide and deer by just looking at a glance? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: MtMan-List: Product Report Date: 04 Jul 2000 17:10:38 -0700 Ladies & Gentlemen, Just a fast note on a product that we have all seen at the end of his never ending messages and seems nobody has commented on his products. I am here to tell you that-that old grump John Kramer makes one hell of an item for wood, metal, or whatever bothers yee. I'm talking about his "Antique Improver", folks this is some GOOD STUFF. The guy next door just got a 1850's target rifle, 1-1/2 across the flats, several types of sights - peep to open, perc. cap, 45 cal., overall condition is NRA good, but an Uncle tried to cleanup the 1/2 stock with about #2 steel wool, leaving a lot of scratches. He brought it over last night and all we could do was lightly go over the surface with #4 steel wool, removing the largest amount of damage. Then I tried John's "Antique Improver", within an hour all damage had covered over, this gun looks 100% better, hell I even put a light coat on the metal. Knowing the new owner he'll never touch it again other than show vistors his wall hanger in the den. Thanks Mr. Kramer for a great product. Later Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ CLARK & SONS MERCANTILE, INC. "One who trades" "Uno quien negocia" "Unquil Commerce" English Spanish French *Period grains *mill items *cookware *camp equipage* & much, much more. ~~~~~~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ ~~~~~~ Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Buck Conner Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Kramer Date: 04 Jul 2000 17:24:13 -0700 On Tue, 04 July 2000, "Dennis Miles" wrote: After John gave me a bottle of the improver during the Auction, I have bought more and it is the ONLY oil I use on my knives and hawks now.. And it coats my weaponry in the cabinet to protect from this damned humidity.... And my "goodies" on the mantle... Hell, you know what they say.."even a blind pig...." D ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Give credit where credit is due, he's come up with a great item to care for our original and repro items in this sport. Like before Thanks John. Later Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ CLARK & SONS MERCANTILE, INC. "One who trades" "Uno quien negocia" "Unquil Commerce" English Spanish French *Period grains *mill items *cookware *camp equipage* & much, much more. ~~~~~~ http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ ~~~~~~ Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Kramer Date: 04 Jul 2000 20:42:47 -0500 Thanks Buck and Dennis. I do appreciate the kind words. John... At 05:24 PM 7/4/00 -0700, you wrote: >On Tue, 04 July 2000, "Dennis Miles" wrote: > >After John gave me a bottle of the improver during the Auction, I have >bought more and it is the ONLY oil I use on my knives and hawks now.. > >And it coats my weaponry in the cabinet to protect from this damned >humidity.... > >And my "goodies" on the mantle... > >Hell, you know what they say.."even a blind pig...." > >D >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Give credit where credit is due, he's come up with a great item to care >for our original and repro items in this sport. Like before Thanks John. > >Later >Buck Conner "A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to against every government on Earth... and what no just government should refuse." --Thomas Jefferson ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Kramer Date: 04 Jul 2000 23:04:26 -0400 Buck Wrote... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Give credit where credit is due ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Buck.. I agree, the stuff is thouroughly amazeing... It gets used on allot of stuff around here. FWIW, I reccommend it. D PS... And I meant the "blind pig" crack.. ( I will hafta open my next order from John real careful like...) D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hail.eris@gte.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patriot! w/ 2 detours and 411 request Date: 04 Jul 2000 22:37:39 -0700 > think it's wrong to use more than civil requests on the uncivil and hostile > members in society? Does every earnest affront to social gatherings have to > be handled with tact and discretion? Were our forebears brutish and subject If the disturbance was at a privately owned theatre, the only lawful course today is to ask the manager to either evict these idiots, or refund your tickets. If it happened as early as only four decades ago, all of the male theatre-goers would have cleaned their clocks, and then handed them over to the police, to be deported at their own expense for causing a disturbance. I guess we were all less tolerant of idiots then. Kristopher K. Barrett ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Htorr@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: Fw: Ponder this...it's interesting! Date: 05 Jul 2000 12:28:01 EDT --part1_2f.78964af.2694bc11_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_2f.78964af.2694bc11_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-yb05.mx.aol.com (rly-yb05.mail.aol.com [172.18.146.5]) by air-yb04.mail.aol.com (v75.18) with ESMTP; Wed, 05 Jul 2000 11:31:35 -0400 Received: from mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.47]) by rly-yb05.mx.aol.com (v75.18) with ESMTP; Wed, 05 Jul 2000 11:31:05 -0400 Received: from cmpullen.ATTWorldNet ([12.69.3.165]) by mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with SMTP id <20000705153102.KZEY6885.mtiwmhc22.worldnet.att.net@cmpullen.ATTWorldNet>; Wed, 5 Jul 2000 15:31:02 +0000 Message-ID: <009101bfe696$99f4bfa0$a503450c@ATTWorldNet> "Snavely's" , "Nancy J. Powell" , "Tom Orr" , "Margaret Milona" , "Gustavo Mellander" , "Betsy and Linn" , "Nancy Lally" , "Nancy Hankison" , "Sue Grubbs" , "Donna Gray" , "Jimmy O. Duckworth" , "Kitty Caddell" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 > >Date: Friday, June 30, 2000 9:51 PM > >Subject: Ponder this...it's interesting! > > > > > >>I sure wish people would take his advice! > >> > >>Paul Harvey on Guns > >> > >>Are you considering backing gun control laws? Do you think that because > >you > >>may not own a gun, the rights guaranteed by the Second Amendment don't > >>matter? CONSIDER; > >> > >>In 1929 the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, > >>approximately 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were > >>rounded up and exterminated. > >> > >>In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915-1917, 1.5 million > >>Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. > >> > >>Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, 13 million > >>Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally ill, and others, who were unable > >to > >>defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. > >> > >>China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million > >>political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and > >>exterminated. > >> > >>Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 > >Mayan > >>Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. > >> > >>Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 > >>Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. > >> > >>Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million > >>"educated" people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and > >>exterminated. > >> > >>That places total victims who lost their lives because of gun control at > >>approximately 56 million in the last century. Since we should learn from > >>the mistakes of history, the next time someone talks in favor of gun > >>control, find out which group of citizens they wish to have exterminated. > >> > >>It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced to > >>surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed, a program costing the > >>government more than $500 million dollars. The results Australia-wide; > >>Homicides are up 3.2%, Assaults are up 8%, Armed robberies are up 44%. In > >>that countrys' state of Victoria, homicides with firearms are up 300%. > Over > >>the previous 25 years, figures show a steady decrease in armed robberies > >and > >>Australian politicians are on the spot and at a loss to explain how no > >>improvement in "safety" has been observed after such monumental effort and > >>expense was successfully expended in "ridding society of guns." It's time > >to > >>state it plainly; Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and > >>property and, yes, gun-control laws only affect the law-abiding citizens. > >>Take action before it's too late, write or call your delegation. > >> > >>OPINION: Paul Harvey on Guns > >> > >>Paul Harvey's comment on Columbine High: How can we blame it all on guns? > >> > >>For the life of me, I can't understand what could have gone wrong in > >>Littleton, CO. If only the parents had kept their children away from the > >>guns, we wouldn't have had such a tragedy. > >> > >>Yeah, it must have been the guns. It couldn't have been because half our > >>children are being raised in broken homes. It couldn't have been because > >our > >>children get to spend an average of 30 seconds in meaningful conversation > >>with their parents each day. After all, we give our children quality time. > >It > >>couldn't have been because we treat our children as pets and our pets as > >>children. > >> > >>It couldn't have been because we place our children in day care centers > >where > >>they learn their socialization skills among their peers under the law of > >the > >>jungle while employees who have no vested interest in the children look on > >>and make sure that no blood is spilled. > >> > >>It couldn't have been because we allow our children to watch, on the > >>average, seven hours of television a day filled with the glorification of > >sex > >>and violence that isn't fit for > >>adult consumption. > >> > >>It couldn't have been because we allow our children to enter into virtual > >>worlds in which, to win the game, one must kill as many opponents as > >possible > >>in the most sadistic way possible. > >> > >>It couldn't have been because we have sterilized and contracepted our > >>families down to sizes so small that the children we do have are so > spoiled > >>with material things that they come to equate the receiving of the > material > >>with love. > >> > >>It couldn't have been because our children, who historically have been > seen > >>as a blessing from God, are now being viewed as either a mistake created > >when > >>contraception fails or inconveniences that parents try to raise in their > >>spare time. > >> > >>It couldn't have been because we give two-year prison sentences to > >teenagers > >>who kill their newborns. It couldn't have been because our school systems > >>teach the children that they are nothing but glorified apes who have > >>evolutionized out of some primordial soup of mud by teaching evolution as > >>fact and by handing out condoms as if they were candy. > >> > >>It couldn't have been because we teach our children that there are no laws > >of > >>morality that transcend us, that everything is relative and that actions > >>don't have consequences. What the heck, the president gets away with it. > >> > >>Nah, it must have been the guns. > >> > >>Paul Harvey > >> > > > --part1_2f.78964af.2694bc11_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred Subject: MtMan-List: Just a Piece of Paper Date: 05 Jul 2000 09:54:06 -0600 Congratulations on the 224th anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of Independence! People often say that a legal document is "just a piece of paper", but nations have been created by "just a piece of paper"--yours, and mine. The Declaration of Independence was "just a piece of paper": a piece of paper that Loyalists and Patriots were both willing to die for. Canada was created by "just a piece of paper": the British North America Act, which combined three colonies--Canada (now Quebec & Ontario), Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick--into a single democratic nation on July 1, 1867. I understand that the essay on the signers of the Declaration has a large number of factual errors. Folks interested in the real facts--which are sometimes even more inspiring--can read Jim Elbrecht's "A Rebuttal to 'The Price They Paid' Essays" (http://home.nycap.rr.com/elbrecht/signers/HARVEY-reb.htm). And please accept this belated "Happy Birthday" wish from Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JBSierra@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Kramer Date: 05 Jul 2000 12:50:49 EDT Not sure why I'm getting this mail addressed to Buck, etc. I am on Mt man list. This appears to be personal communication. JBSierra ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JBSierra@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Patriot! w/ 2 detours and 411 request Date: 05 Jul 2000 12:51:49 EDT Please try to limit personal communication to the person intended, not to entire list. JBSierra ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JBSierra@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: Fw: Ponder this...it's interesting! Date: 05 Jul 2000 13:02:25 EDT Paul Harvey's comments have real merit. But, when you attack science (evolution) as a contributing factor to bringing up killer kids, then you wipe out all the good points you made. Evolution does not say we come from apes. Read and inform yourself Mr. Harvey. Recent gene mapping DOES say all living creatures on the planet today share 99.9 % of the same genetic material. We are all close but not identical. Generally, good points on the Harvey article. To bad pundits like him get sunk in their own ignorance, bias, and religious dogma when they DO have something important to say. JBSierra ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JSeminerio@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question Date: 05 Jul 2000 14:05:05 EDT In a message dated 7/4/00 4:35:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Huntershorn1@aol.com writes: > Can you tell the difference in smoked cow hide and deer by just looking at a > glance? It smells!!!! But I have heard from better quill workers than myself that "commercial" braintan hides (soft suede) have been smoked to fool people. The color of the hides is slightly uneven ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MIA3WOLVES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question Date: 05 Jul 2000 21:36:55 EDT As a quillworker, I can tell the difference between brain tan and commercial brain tan by the texture of the hide. Real brain tan has a softer, more velvety feel. The commercial brain tan doesn't appear to have the fiber broken down as well. Maryln Adams Red Hawk Quillwork ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bruce S. de Lis" Subject: MtMan-List: WNS 2001 In Phoenix Date: 08 Jul 2000 07:55:32 -0700 For any of you guys living out WEST, or if you is interested in the 2001 NMLRA WESTERN National Shoot, formally the NMLRA Winter National Shoot. (Name Change) Here is an Information link with the dates, and how to make Modern Campground Reservations that are being accepted NOW. Also note that Muzzle Loading Skeet, Trap, and Sport Clay events will also be held in 2001 @ Ben Avery Clay Target Center... http://sites.netscape.net/pennyoutwest/westernnationalinformation For Your Information Only Penny Pincher Visit my new Home-Page, Links, http://sites.netscape.net/pennyoutwest/homepage Message Board http://members.boardhost.com/PennyOutWest All with a Western Muzzle Loading Theme. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Smith Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Re: Kramer] Date: 08 Jul 2000 18:39:44 EDT JBSierra@aol.com wrote: Not sure why I'm getting this mail addressed to Buck, etc. I am on Mt man= = list. This appears to be personal communication. JBSierra ---------------------- That e-mail was a response from a "product report", informing us of John Kramer's "Antique Improver", great for any metal, wood, etc. and used it = on much of my gear and really like it like many that have become of this product. Anyone that uses their equipment like we do in all weather conditions is = glad to find products that help to prolong the life of the items. Concho. Is this hard !!! ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm= ail.netscape.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JBSierra@aol.com Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Re: Kramer] Date: 08 Jul 2000 19:01:40 EDT Thanks. I now understand. John ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Re: Kramer] Date: 09 Jul 2000 09:50:48 -0700 On Sat, 08 July 2000, Concho Smith wrote: > > JBSierra@aol.com wrote: > Not sure why I'm getting this mail addressed to Buck, etc. I am on Mt man list. This appears to be personal communication. > JBSierra > ---------------------- > That e-mail was a response from a "product report", informing us of John Kramer's "Antique Improver", great for any metal, wood, etc..... > > Anyone that uses their equipment like we do in all weather conditions is glad to find products that help to prolong the life of the items. > > Concho. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I have found that this product goes a long ways, have applied it to over 30 weapons (black powder), because of this dry climate in Colorado. Works good on ivory handles of anything, put it on plunder boxes, even on the poles for my small wedge tent. Give it a try, many of the craftsman on this "list" are starting to use it on their products and on original items as well. Gives a pleasing luster, plus protects the surface and puts a little moisture back into the item, good product for the restorer or the reproduction items you have at hand. Enought said, not really history per the "list" nature, but if we don't take care of these valued items, they will be history. Later. Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "One who trades" "Uno quien negocia" "Unquil Commerce" English Spanish French * Phila * St.Louis * Trade West * Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Smith Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Re: Kramer]] Date: 09 Jul 2000 13:06:42 EDT Hey John, Do make anything for hemorrhoids or the heart break of .... Concho. > That e-mail was a response from a "product report", informing us of Joh= n Kramer's "Antique Improver", great for any metal, wood, etc..... > = > Concho. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Give it a try, many of the craftsman on this "list" are starting to use i= t on their products and on original items as well. Gives a pleasing luster, pl= us protects the surface and puts a little moisture back into the item, good product for the restorer or the reproduction items you have at hand. Enought said, not really history per the "list" nature, but if we don't t= ake care of these valued items, they will be history. Later. Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm= ail.netscape.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Re: Kramer]] Date: 09 Jul 2000 10:12:40 -0700 On Sun, 09 July 2000, Concho Smith wrote: > Hey John, > > Do make anything for hemorrhoids or the heart break of .... > > Concho. > ------------------------------------------ > > That e-mail was a response from a "product report", informing us of John Kramer's "Antique Improver", great for any metal, wood, etc..... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Concho you are a "hemorrhoid" (if that's spelled right) and you've been a "heart break" to your family since day one, they wanted a puppy. Crawl back in your hole brother, think you need the rest. Any reports on the Nationals or any good doings. Later. Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "One who trades" "Uno quien negocia" "Unquil Commerce" English Spanish French * Phila * St.Louis * Trade West * Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Re: Kramer]] Date: 09 Jul 2000 13:55:26 -0400 Concho Wrote "Do make anything for hemorrhoids or the heart break of ...." Hey Concho, A deeply filed "crosshatch" pattern on a 1/2" round rod, heated to cherry red and inserted, twisted a few imes and deftly removed will fix you right up.. D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Wagh for the AMM 200 Nationals Date: 09 Jul 2000 16:55:30 EDT It was some fine doins, Beautiful site, Lots of good colleges put on, Capt. Lahti put on one fine woods walk I'm told. Which I missed do to too much BSin on my part. Lots brothers from all over to BS with. My new hat is off to Taos and the Northwest Brigade for putting on one fine Nationals. I'm sorry for all that ground that I may have tore up out there in your parking area when Jill and Yaro drug me out of there Thursday night before the Buffalo feast was done. I sure did not want to leave that was for sure. See ya on the trail Crazy Cyot ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Smith Subject: [Re: MtMan-List: Re: List is slow - [OFF TOPIC] Date: 09 Jul 2000 23:15:12 EDT "Dennis Miles" wrote: Concho Wrote "Do make anything for hemorrhoids or the heart break of ...." Hey Concho, A deeply filed "crosshatch" pattern on a 1/2" round rod, heated to cher= ry red and inserted, twisted a few imes and deftly removed will fix you righ= t up.. D Dennis, Brother it must be slow on this list that you two have gotten down on a f= ine friend such as I. I've been told my a few of the fine ladies here in PA t= hat my back side is very nice, I think that's what they where referring to wh= en comparing me and the back end of a friend's mule !!! Buck said you and Pablo where planning to visit him, he has a nice place = and his Mrs. is a sweet heart, you'll enjoy both of them. Make sure to have h= im show you some of the family hand me downs and have him tell you the story= about his grandfather's brother that rode with Viva and then ended up in = the movies, cool stuff. Later = Concho. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm= ail.netscape.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: List is slow - [OFF TOPIC] Date: 09 Jul 2000 23:43:23 -0400 , >have him tell you the story > about his grandfather's brother that rode with Villa and then ended up in the > movies, cool stuff. . >********How about sharing it with the rest of us, sounds interesting.*************** > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: AMM National 2000 Date: 09 Jul 2000 23:21:29 -0700 (PDT) Good Sirs. I was privledged to attend the event from Thursday evening on as a guest of the Wilson Price Hunt Party. Missed meeting several of the folks from this forum, but did get to meet a couple fine gentlemen who frequently lurk here. While I missed all of the formal colleges... I recieved an impromptu, but through class on packing, and another on making cordage from cedar bark. I enjoyed being a guest, and look forward to learning much more in the future. Incidently, three drinks of the standard ration of one gill rum, one of shrub, just about KO'd this child.... and meant for a slow Friday morning much to the amusement of my campmates. Wouldna trade the memories for anything. Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of North Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders www.geocities.com/northscribe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Re: Kramer]] Date: 10 Jul 2000 01:47:06 -0500 Concho, A cup full of "acid of sugar" , quarter cup of "cinnabar", two spoons=20 "realgar", with a dollop of "calomel" in your beans; pretty=20 much eliminates any kind of problem. Some think it is a little too permanent a cure. Can be used externally=20 with about the same results for the heartbreak as well. John... At 01:06 PM 7/9/00 -0400, you wrote: >Hey John, > >Do make anything for hemorrhoids or the heart break of .... > >Concho. >------------------------------------------ > > That e-mail was a response from a "product report", informing us of John >Kramer's "Antique Improver", great for any metal, wood, etc..... > > > > Concho. >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Give it a try, many of the craftsman on this "list" are starting to use it= on >their products and on original items as well. Gives a pleasing luster, plus >protects the surface and puts a little moisture back into the item, good >product for the restorer or the reproduction items you have at hand. > >Enought said, not really history per the "list" nature, but if we don't= take >care of these valued items, they will be history. >Later. >Buck Conner >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > >____________________________________________________________________ >Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at=20 >http://webmail.netscape.com. > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Fort Union Trading Post Date: 10 Jul 2000 11:47:17 -0600 On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana Robert, It is good to see some one from Fort Union on the AMM list. With your background also at Fort Laramie it is a double benefit for the list. Looking forward to seeing more good things come out of Fort Union. Walt Park City, Montana Yes, I am a Park Ranger with the NPS. Been working here at Union since 1995, and I worked down to Fort Laramie before that. Robert ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: More on Fort Orleans Date: 10 Jul 2000 19:09:39 EDT --part1_d.745295c.269bb1b3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_d.745295c.269bb1b3_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-yc04.mx.aol.com (rly-yc04.mail.aol.com [172.18.149.36]) by air-yc05.mail.aol.com (v75.18) with ESMTP; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:35:59 -0400 Received: from frank.harcourtbrace.com (frank.harcourtbrace.com [167.208.101.32]) by rly-yc04.mx.aol.com (v75.18) with ESMTP; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:34:46 -0400 Received: from harcourtbrace.com (orl-hbc-mta.harcourtbrace.com [167.208.101.14]) by frank.harcourtbrace.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA02493 for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:27:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harcourtbrace.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.3 (733.2 10-16-1998)) id 85256918.0076A133 ; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:35:45 -0400 X-Lotus-FromDomain: HARCOURT Sender: david.graybill@harcourt.com Message-ID: <85256918.00769D03.00@harcourtbrace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailer: Unknown ---------------------- Forwarded by David Graybill/MOS/STL/HARCOURT on 07/10/2000 04:29 PM --------------------------- cc: From www.ukans.edu/carrie/kancol About the close of the year 1714, M. Du Tissenet [11], a young Canadian, arrived at the post of Mobile to enter the service of M. Crozat. He brought with him specimens of lead from the mines in the neighborhood of Kaskaskia, which had been given to him by his countrymen who resided at that place. These specimens he tool to M. De la Motte, and on being assayed they were found to contain some silver. He afterward took charge of a grant of land, where he remained until M. Crozat was succeeded by Law, and M. De Boisbriant was appointed Governor of the Illinois district of Louisiana. In October, 1718, M. De Boisbriant set out for his post, and Du Tissenet was ordered to join him at the Illinois during the year. The following year, by order of Bienville, Governor of Louisiana, he made an expedition to the west of the Mississippi, probably crossing Kansas from about the locality of Linn county, northwest to the forks of the Kansas and thence west to the headwaters of the Smokey Hill. On his return to the Illinois District, in a letter to M. De Bien- ville, dated "CaskasKias, 22d of November" (1719), he gives an account of the expedition. He visited the Osage Indians at their village near the Osage river, at eighty leagues above its mouth and describes them as stout, well made, and great warriors, and also that lead can be found in their country. Forty leagues west of the Osages, he came to two Pawnee villages of about 130 cabins each, and fifteen days west from them he reached the Padoucas, whom he described as a brave and warlike nation. In the country of the Padoucas, on September 27, 1719, he erected a cross transcribed with the arms of the king, thus claiming the region for France. M. Du Tissenet reports parts of the country he passed through as beautiful and well timbered, and mentions the prairies abounding with buffaloes, and the masses of salt that he found. [11] The name of this early explorer is spelled by good authorities -- Hale and others who have followed him -- Dutisne, a legitimate contraction of the old patronimic. In one "History of Kansas", he is spoken of as Duquesne. There is an evident mistake. In earlier letters and documents, as published in French Translations, "Historical Collections of Louisiana and Florida", the name is invariably written as Du Tissenet. The expedition was undoubtedly one for the purpose of locating mines, as the mining fever was then at its height, and the Osages, with whom the French were on the most friendly terms, might readily have given necessary directions as to the advantageous route to pursue. The search, of course, was unsuccessful, as no mention of minerals in the region is made by any of the Louisiana writers. M. Du Tissenet was the first explorer who gave any definite information in regard to the Indian tribes inhabiting the region of Kansas. On the 24th of May, [12] 1721, M De Boisbriant, Governor of the Illinois District, wrote to Bienville that he had been informed that 300 Spaniards had left Sante Fe for the purpose of driving the French out of Louisiana, but were attached by the Osage and Panis Indians and driven back to Sante Fe. [12] "Annals of Louisiana", M. Penicaut. Like many reports, the story told the Governor was not entirely correct. The following is the version as given by Du Pratz, when the facts were better known: "The Spaniards, as well as our other neighbors, being continually jealous of our superiority over them, formed a design of establishing themselves among the Missouris [13] and for that purpose, they courted the friendship of the Osages, whose assistance they thought would be of service to them in their enterprise, and who wee generally at enmity with the Missouris. A company of Spaniards, men, women and soldiers, accordingly set out from Santa Fe, having a Dominican for their chaplain, and with horses, and all other kinds of beasts being necessary, for it one of their prudent maximums to send off all these things together. By a fatal mistake, the Spaniards arrived first among the Missouris, whom they took for the Osages, and imprudently disclosed their hostile intentions, they were themselves surprised and cut off by those they had intended for destruction. The Missouris sometime afterward dressed themselves with the ornaments of the chapel, and carried them in a kind of triumphant procession to the French commandant among the Illinois. [13] The Missouris were settled at the mouth of the Grand River, in the State of Missouri. This military and colonizing "caravan" or expedition starting from Sante Fe, and striking the Missouris north of the Missouri River, near the entrance of the Grand, and leaving the Osage villages at the south, must have followed, through Kansas, very nearly the line of the Santa Fe railroad. After the disastrous termination of the Spanish expedition above mentioned, the French, in order to protect their mining territory, and guard against any attempts of the same kind, built in 1722-23, a fort on the eastern extremity of an island in the Missouri just above the mouth of the Osage. The post, which was named Fort Orleans, was garrisoned and placed in the command of M. De Bourgmont, and became a medium of intercourse and trade with the surrounding tribes. In 1724, M. De Bourgmont made an extensive journey across the entire Territory of Kansas, from the village of the Kanzas Indians on the Missouri, near the present city of Atchison, to the village of the Padoucas at the sources of Smoky Hill. [14] A full account of the journey is given in M. Le Page Du Pratz's "History of Louisiana", published in Paris in 1757. Du Pratz states that his narrative is "extracted and abridged from M. De Bourgmont's journal, an original account, signed by all the officers, and several other members of the company." As the journey was directly through the northern part of what is afterward the territory of Kansas, the account is copied entire and verbatim. [14] On the map published in 1757, in connection with the history from which the account of the journey is taken, the "Country of the Padoucas" extends from the headwaters of the Republican, to the south of the Arkansas. The great village of the Padoucas is located at the head waters of the Smokey Hill. "The Padoucas who lie west by northwest of the Missouris, happened at that time to be at war with the neighboring nations, the Canzas, Othouez, Aiaouez, Osages, Missouris and Panimahs, all in amity with the French. To conciliate a peace between all these nations and the Padoucas, M. De Bourgmont sent to engage them, as being our allies, to accompany him on a journey to the Padou- cas in order to bring about a general pacification, and by that means to facilitate the traffick or truck between us and them, and conclude an alliance with the Padoucas." "For this purpose, M. DeBourgmont set out on the 3d of July, 1724, from Fort Orleans, which lies near the Missouris, a nation dwelling on the banks of the river with that name, in order to join that people, and then to proceed to the Canzas, where the general rendezvous of the several nations was appointed." "M. De Bourgmont was accompanied by a hundred Missouris, commanded by their Grand Chief, and eight other Chiefs of war, and by sixty four Osages, commanded by four Chiefs of war, besides a few Frenchmen. On the 6th, he joined the Grand Chief, six other Chiefs of war, and several Warriors of the Canzas; who presented him with the Pipe of Peace, and performed the honours customary on such occasions, to the Missouri and Osages." "On the 7th, they passes thro' extensive meadows and woods, and arrived at the banks of the River Missouri, over against the village of the Canzas." "On the 8th, the French crossed the Missouri in a pettyauger, the Indians on floats of cane and the horses were swam over. They landed within gunshot of the Canzas, who flocked to receive them with the pipe; their Grand Chief, in the name of the nation, assuring M. De Bourgmont that all their Warriors would accompany him in his journey to the Padoucas, with protestations of friendship and fidelity, confirmed by smoking the Pipe. The same assurances were made him by the other Chiefs, who entertained him in their huts and rubbed him over and his companions." "On the 9th, M. de Bourgmont was dispatched five Missouris to acquaint the Othouez with his arrival at Canza. They returned on the 10th and brought word that the Othouez promised to hunt for him and his Warriors and to cause provisions to be dried for the journey; that their Chief would set out directly, in order to wait on M. de Bourgmont and carry him the word of the whole nation. "The Canzas continued to regale the French; brought them great quantities of grapes, of which the French made a good wine. "On the 24th of July, at six in the morning, this little army set out, consisting of 300 Warriors, including the Chiefs of the Canzas, about 300 woman, about 500 young people, and at least 300 dogs. The women carried considerable loads, to the astonishment of the French, unaccustomed to such a sight. The young women were also well loaded for their years, and the dogs were made to trail a part of the baggage, and that in the following manner: The back of the dog was covered with a skin, with its pile on; then the dog was girthed around and his breast leather put on, taking two poles, of the thickness of one's arm and twelve feet long, they fastened their two ends half a foot asunder, laying on the dog's saddle the thong that fastened the two poles, and to the poles they also fastened, behind the dog, a ring or hoop lengthwise, on which they laid the load. "On the 28th and 29th, the army crossed several brooks and small rivers, passed through several meadows and thickets, meeting everywhere on their way a great deal of game. "On the 30th, M. de Bourgmont, finding himself very ill, was obliged to have a litter made, in order to be carried back to Fort Orleans till he should recover. Before he departed, he gave orders about two Padouca slaves, whom he ransomed and was to send before him to that nation, in order to ingratiate himself by this act of generosity. These he caused to be sent by one Gaillard, who was to tell their nation that M. de Bourgmont, being fallen ill on his intended journey to their country, and was obliged to return home; but that as soon as he got well again, he would resume his journey to their country, in order to procure a general peace between them and the other nations. "On the evening of the same day, arrived at the camp of the Grand Chief of the Othouez, who acquainted M. de Bourgmont that a great part of his Warriors waited for him on the road to the Padoucas, and that he came to receive his orders, but was sorry to find him ill. "At length, on the 4th of August, M. de Bourgmont set out from the Canzas in a pettyauger, and arrived, the 5th, at Fort Orleans. "On the 6th day of September, M. de Bourgmont, who was still at Fort Orleans, was informed of the arrival of the two Padouca slaves, on the 25th of August, at their own nations, and that the meeting on the way a body of Padouca hunters, a day's journey away from their village, the Padouca slaves made the signal of their nation, by throwing their mantles thrice over their heads; that they spoke much in commendation of the generosity of M. de Bourgmont, who had ransomed them; told all that he had done in order to a general pacification; in fine extolled the French to such a degree that their discourse, held in the presence of their Grand Chief and the whole nation, diffused a universal joy; That Gaillard told them the flag they saw was the symbol of peace and the word of the Sovereign of the French; that in a little time the several nations would come to be like brethren and have but one heart. "The grand Chief of the Padoucas was so well assured that the war was now at an end that he dispatched twenty Padoucas, with Gaillard, to the Canzas, by whom they were extremely well received. The Padoucas, on their return home, related their good reception among the Canzas, and as plain and real proof of the pacification mediated by the French, brought with them fifty of the Canzas and three of their women, who, in their return were received by the Padoucas with all possible marks of friendship. "Tho' M. de Bourgmont was but just recovering of his illness, he, however, prepared for his departure, and on the 20th of September actually set out from Fort Orleans by water, and arrived at the canzas on the 27th. "Gaillard arrived on the 2d of October, at the camp of the Canzas, with three Chiefs of war and three Warriors of the Padoucas, who were received by M. de Bourgmont, with flag displayed and other testimonies of civility, and had presents made for them of several goods proper for their use. "On the 4th of October, arrived at the Canzas, the Grand Chief and seven other Chiefs of war of the Othouez, and the next day, very early, six chiefs of war of the Aiaouez. "M. de Bourgmont assembled all the Chiefs present, and, sitting them around a large fire made before his tent, rose up, and addressing himself to them, said: `He was come to declare to them, in the name of his Sovereign and the Grand French Chief in the country, that it was the will of his Sovereign they should all live in peace for the future, like brethren and friends, if they expected to enjoy his love and protection.' `and since' says he `your are all assembled this day, it is good you conclude a peace, and all smoke in the same pipe. "The Chiefs of these different nations rose up to a man, and said with one consent they were well satisfied to comply with the request, and instantly gave each other their Pipes of Peace. "After an entertainment prepared for them, the Padoucas sung the songs and danced the Dances of Peace -- a kind of pantomimes representing the innocent pleasures of peace. "On the 6th of October, M. de Bourgmont set out for the Canzas with all the baggage, and the flag displayed at the head of the French and such Indians as he had pitched on to accompany him -- in all forty persons: The goods intended for presents were loaded on horses. As they set out late, they traveled but five leagues, in which the crossed a small river and two brooks in a fine country with little wood. "The same day, Gaillard, Quenel and two Padoucas were dispatched to acquaint their nation with the March of the French. That day they traveled ten leagues, crossed one river and two brooks. "On the 10th, they made eight leagues, crossed two small rivers and three brooks. To their right and left they had several small hills on which one could observe pieces of rock, even with the ground. Along the rivers there is found a slate, and in the meadows a reddish marble, standing out of the earth one, two, and three feet -- some pieces of it upwards of six feet in diameter. "On the 11th, they passed over several brooks and a small river, and then the river of the canzas, which had only three feet of water. Farther on they found several brooks issuing from the little hills. The river of the Canzas runs directly from west to east, and falls into the Missouri. It is very great in floods, because, according to the report of the Padoucas, it comes from a great way off. The woods which border this river afford a retreat to numbers of buffaloes and other game. On the left were seen great eminences with hanging rocks. "On the 12th of October, the journey, as the preceding day, was extremely diversified by the variety of the objects. They crossed eight brooks and beautiful meadows covered with herds of elks and buffaloes. To the right the view was unbounded, but to the left small hills were seen at a distance, which from time to time presented the appearance of ancient castles. "The 13th, on their march they saw the meadows covered almost entirely with buffaloes, elks and deer, so that one could scarce distinguish the different herds, so numerous and intermixed they were. The same day they passed thro' a wood almost two leagues long, and a pretty rough ascent, a thing which seemed extraordinary, as to then they only met with little groves, the largest of which scarce contained a hundred trees, but straight as a cane -- groves too small to afford a retreat to a quarter of the buffaloes and elks seen there. "The 14th, the march was retarded by the ascents and descents, from which many springs of an extreme pure water, forming several brooks, whose water united make little rivers that fall into the river of the Canzas. Doubtless it is this multitude of brooks which traverse these meadows, extending a great way out of sight, that invite these numerous herds of buffaloes. "The 15th they crossed several brooks and two little rivers. It is chiefly on the banks of those rivers that we find those enchanting little groves, adorned with grass underneath, and so clear of underwood that we may there hunt down the stag with ease. "The 16th they continued to pass a similar landscape, the beauties of which were never cloying. Besides the game, these groves afforded also a retreat to flocks of wild turkeys. "The 17th, they made very little way, because they wanted to get into the right road, from which they had strayed the two preceding days. They at length recovered it, and, at a small distance from their camp, saw an encampment of the Padoucas, which appeared to have been quitted only about eight days before. This yielded them so much the more pleasure, as it showed the nearness of that nation, which made them encamp after traveling only six leagues, in order to make signals from that place, by setting fire to the parts of the meadows which the general fire had spared. In a little while the signal was answered in the same manner, and confirmed by the arrival of the two Frenchmen who had orders given them to make the signals. "On the 18th, they met a little river of brackish water, on the banks of which they found another encampment of the Padoucas, which appeared to be abandoned but four days before. At half a league farther on, a great smoke was seen to the west, at no great distance off, which was answered by setting fire to the parts of the meadows untouched by the general fire. "About half an hour after, the padoucas were observed coming at full gallop with the flag which Gaillard had left with them on his first journey to their country. M. de Bourgmont instantly ordered the French under arms, and, at the head of his people, thrice saluted these people with his flag, which they also returned thrice by raising their mantles as many times over their heads. "After the first ceremony, M. de Bourgmont made them all sit down and smoke in the Pipe of Peace. This action, being the seal of the peace, diffused a general joy, accompanied with loud acclamations. "The Padoucas, after mounting the French and the Indians who accompanied them, set out on their horses for their camp, and after a journey of three leagues, arrived at their encampment, but left a distance of a gun shot between the two camps. "The day after their arrival at the Padoucas, M. de Bourgmont caused the goods allotted for this nation to be unpacked, and the different species parceled out, which he made them all presents of. "After which, M. de Bourgmont sent for the Grand Chief and other Chiefs of the Padoucas, who came to the camp to the number of 2000, and placing himself between them and the goods, thus parceled and laid out to view, he told them he was sent by his Sovereign to carry them the word of Peace, this flag and these goods, and to exhort them to live as brethren with their neighbors, the Panimhas, Aiaouez, Othouez, Canzas, Missouris, Osages and Illinois, and to traffick and truck freely together, and with the French. He, at the same time, gave the flag to the Grand Chief of the Padoucas, who received it with demonstrations of respect, and told him, `I accept this flag which you present to me on the part of your Sovereign. We rejoice at our having peace with all the nations you mentioned, and promise, in the name of our nation, never to make war on any of your allies; but receive them when they come among us, as our brethren; as we shall in like manner the French, and conduct with them when they want to go to the Spaniards, who are but twelve days' journey form our village, and who truck with us in horses, of which they have such numbers they know not what to do with them; also in bad hatchets of a soft iron, and some knives, whose points they break off, lest we should use them one day against themselves. You may command all my Warriors. I can furnish with upwards of two thousand. In my own and in the name of the whole nation, I entreat you would send some Frenchmen to trade with us. We can supply them with horses, which we truck with the Spaniards for buffalo mantles, and with great quantities of furs.' "These people are far from being savage, nor would it be a difficult matter to civilize them -- a plain proof that they had long intercourse with the Spaniards. The few days the French stayed among them they were become very familiar, and would fain have M. de Bourgmont leave some Frenchmen among them, especially they of the village at which the peace was concluded with the other nations. This village consisted of an hundred and forty huts, and contained about eight hundred warriors, fifteen hundred women and at least two thousand children, some Padoucas having four wives. "On the 22d of October, M. de Bourgmont set out from the Padouca, and travelled only five leagues that day. The 23d and the three following days, he travelled in all forty leagues; the 27th, six leagues, the 28th, eight leagues; the 29th, six leagues, and on the 30th as many. The 31st, he travelled only four leagues and that day arrived within a half a mile of the Canzas. From the Padoucas to the Canzas, proceeding always east, we may now very safely reckon sixty-five leagues and a half. The river of Canzas is parallel to this route. "On the 1st of November, they all arrived on the banks of the Missouri. M. de Bourgmont embarked the 2d on a canoe of skins, and at length, on the 5th day of November, arrived at Fort Orleans." In 1725, the year succeeded that in which M. de Bourgmont made his expedition through Kansas, he visited New Orleans, and during his absence Fort Orleans was destroyed and the entire garrison was massacred. The Indians told no tales and the particulars of the bloody deed were never known. It put an end, however, to any further effort to extend French exploration or trade to the West, and the journey of Bourgmont was probably the last made by white men through Upper Louisiana while the country remained in the possession of France. Thirty years after his visit, an old French writer says the rivers which fall into the Missouri, were known only by Indian names, the best known being the Osage, and the longest known being the Kanzas, which he remarks, runs through a "very fine country." From that time until the country passed into the possession of the United States, Kansas, and the country lying west of it was virtually an unknown and unexplored region, visited only at rare intervals by white men, and occupied by the savage tribes who warred upon each other, and upon the countless herds of buffalo that roamed its plains. At the close of the seventeenth century, Kansas, after having been claimed by two powerful governments, was almost as little known as in the days of Coronado and Du Tissenet. --part1_d.745295c.269bb1b3_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: More on fort orleans Date: 10 Jul 2000 19:16:29 EDT --part1_c1.4edd2de.269bb34d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_c1.4edd2de.269bb34d_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-zb05.mx.aol.com (rly-zb05.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.5]) by air-zb04.mail.aol.com (v75.18) with ESMTP; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:35:17 -0400 Received: from frank.harcourtbrace.com (frank.harcourtbrace.com [167.208.101.32]) by rly-zb05.mx.aol.com (v75.18) with ESMTP; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:34:52 -0400 Received: from harcourtbrace.com (orl-hbc-mta.harcourtbrace.com [167.208.101.14]) by frank.harcourtbrace.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA02521 for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:27:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harcourtbrace.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.3 (733.2 10-16-1998)) id 85256918.00769FEE ; Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:35:41 -0400 X-Lotus-FromDomain: HARCOURT Sender: david.graybill@harcourt.com Message-ID: <85256918.00769C01.00@harcourtbrace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Unknown ---------------------- Forwarded by David Graybill/MOS/STL/HARCOURT on 07/10/2000 04:28 PM --------------------------- cc: Andreas' History of the State of Nebraska EARLY HISTORY Produced by Gary Martens and Laurie Saikin Part 1: Discovery of Nebraska | The Cities of Cibola | Stephen the Moor Part 2: Coronado, the Brilliant Cavalier | The Realm of Tartarrax First Glimpse of Nebraska Part 3: Description of Nebraska in 1541 | Discovery of the Mississippi Jean Nicolet at Green Bay | Jesuit Endeavor Re-Discovery of the Mississippi Part 4: La Salle's Undertakings | Hennepin's Journey Louisiana under French and Spanish Rule Cession of Louisiana to The United States The Treaty of Cession | District of Louisiana Part 5: The Lewis and Clark Expedition Part 6: The Territory Of Louisiana | The Territory of Missouri Maj. Long's Explorations | A Period of No Government Ashley's Expedition Part 7: Col. Fremont's Explorations | Indian Tribes and Treaties Part 4 LA SALLE'S UNDERTAKINGS The work left unfinished by Joliet--the discovery of the mouth of the Mississippi-was accomplished by the indomitable La Salle. The discovery of a water-route to China, the planting of colonies in the West, the building of a fort at the point where the Mississippi flows into the Gulf of Mexico--these were the magnificent schemes revolving in his mind while at Fort Frontenac, Canada. Having first obtained a royal commission for perfecting the discovery of the great river, La Salle, with the necessary compani= ons and stores, ascended Lake Ontario, entered the Niagara River and, passing around the falls, selected a sp= ot at the mouth of a stream now known as Cayuga Creek, on the America site, about two leagues above the catarac= t, where he commenced building the "Griffin," a bark of sixty tons. This craft, after many delays, was finally fully equipped, and spreading her sails, boldly stood on her way westward--the first vessel to navigate Lake Er= ie. This was in August, 1679. A pleasant and rapid run brought them to the mouth of the Detroit Rive= r. Thence they passed into Lake Huron, and, after a rough voyage upon that lake, the "Griffin" was safely moo= red in the Straits of Mackinaw. In September, La Salle passed westward into Lake Michigan, and cast ancho= r, finally, near one of the islands at the entrance of Green Bay. From this point the vessel was sent back with a rich cargo of furs, under orders to return with provisions and supplies, to be conveyed to the head of Lake Michi= gan. But the "Griffin" and her crew were never more heard of. She probably foundered and all on board perished.= La Salle, with fourteen men, after parting with his vessel, started up Lake Michigan in four canoes deepl= y laden. After terrible hardships, he reached the head of the lake, and, circling around it, paddled his way into the mouth of the river. St. Joseph--called by him the "Miamis." From this river, La Salle crossed to a branch of the Illinois, down wh= ich he floated to the main stream, on whose banks, below what is now Peoria, he finally rested. Leaving all his companions except five, he then determined to return to Canada to bring forward supplies. This return trip was undertaken on foot in the month of March, 1680; and has been much commented upon for the daring and hardihood necessary for its successful accomplishment, but more especially as to the route pursued. La Salle followed up the Illinois, crossed over to Lake Michigan and was soon at the mouth of the St. Joseph. Here he was assured of the fate of the "Griffin" by two men whom he found; so he pushed onward with his big party through=20= the unknown wilds of what is now Southern Michigan. Finally, the Detroit River was reached and crossed,= and the persevering Frenchmen, taking a direct line thence to Lake Erie, came to its northern shores at a plac= e not far from Point Pelee, he having sent two of his men from the Detroit to Mackinaw. Upon the lake he embarked= in a canoe made as best he could, and in it reached the Niagara River in safety. Thence he made his way without accident to Fort Frontenac, at the foot of Lake Ontario, after sixty-five days of incessant toil from his place of starting on the Illinois--the most ardous journey perhaps ever made by Frenchmen in all their expeditions= , either in the valley of the St. Lawrence or the Mississippi. HENNEPIN'S JOURNEY. Previous to LaSalle's leaving the Illinois, Louis Hennepin, a Francisc= an friar, had been sent down that river to explore it to its mouth, and, after reaching the Mississippi, to move=20= up that river and report his discoveries. Hennepin journeyed as far as the Falls of St. Anthony, which he named,= and returned after much suffering and many narrow escapes by way of the Wisconsin River to Lake Michigan--wintering (1680-81) upon the Straits of Mackinaw, and finally, in the last-mentioned year, reaching, by way of Lake Huron and the lower lakes, the River St. Lawrence in safety. On the 6th day of February, 1682, there stood at the mouth of the Illi= nois River, gazing out upon the silent waters, La Salle. He had returned from Canada by way of the lakes to t= he point where he then was, his destination being the mouth of the Mississippi. Although fully satisfi= ed that the great stream flowed onward to the gulf, yet, as before mentioned, he was resolved to complete the work b= egun by Joliet and explore it to its mouth. Boldly he and his party embarked in their canoes. Onward they floated, every stage of their adventurous progress being marked with strange sights, but they hesitated not. The= y had many adventures with the savages; many hardships to encounter; many obstacles to overcome; but, finally,= in the early part of April, the great gulf opened before them. They had reached what the sad followers of De Soto= had seen 150 years previous--the mouth of the Mississippi. Thereupon the whole country drained by the Mississippi was taken possession of in the name of the French King. In the autumn of 1683, La Salle, by way of th= e Illinois, once more returned to the St. Lawrence. Thus Europeans explored, from the Falls of St. Anthony to th= e Gulf of Mexico, a country to which La Salle gave the name of Louisiana. "We have given the name Louisiana to this great discovery," said Hennepin to the King of France, in 1682, "being persuaded that Your Majesty would=20= not disapprove that a part of the earth watered by a river more than eight hundred leagues in length, and much greater than Europe, which we may call the Delight of America, and which is capable of terming a great Empire= , should henceforth be known under the august name of Louis, that it may thereby have some show of right to aspire to the honor of your protection, and hope for the advantage of belonging to you." The vast area watered by the Missouri was, as yet, an undiscovered country. "As we were descending the river," wrote Marquette of his voyage down the Mississippi, in 1673, with Joli= et, "we saw high rocks with hideous monsters painted on them and upon which the bravest Indians dare not l= ook. They are as large as a calf, with head and horns like a goat; their eyes red; beard like a tiger's and a face like a man's. Their tails are so long that they pass over their heads and between their forelegs under their bell= y and ending like a fish's tail. They are painted red, green and black. They are so well drawn that I cannot bel= ieve they were made by the Indians. And for what purpose they were made seems to me a great mystery. As we fel= l down the river, and while we were discoursing upon these monsters, we heard a great rushing and bubbling= of waters, and small islands of floating trees coming from the mouth of the Pekitanoni [the Missouri] with such rapidity that we could not trust ourselves to go near it. The water of this river is so muddy that we could not d= rink it. It so discolors the Mississippi as to make the navigation of it dangerous This river comes from the northwes= t and empties into the Mississippi, and on its banks are situated a number of Indian villages. * * The Indians to= ld us that by ascending the Pekitanoni, about six days' journey from its mouth, we would find a beautiful prairie tw= enty or thirty leagues broad, at the end of which, to the northwest, is a small river which is not difficult to navigate. This river runs toward the southwest for ten or fifteen leagues, after which it enters a small lake, which is t= he source of another deep river, running to the west, where it empties into the sea." Such was the first description e= ver given to civilized man of the country of the Missouri; vague and indefinite it is, but bearing some resemblance= to the region as it was afterward seen. The hope entertained by Father Marquette was to find communication wit= h the California Sea, "in order to be able to publish the Gospel to all the nations of this New World, who h= ave so long been plunged in heathen darkness." This avenue, he was led to believe, might be found through=20= what are now called the Missouri and Platte Rivers; for, from the Indians he had learned that by advancing=20= up the Missouri five or six days, "you come to a beautiful prairie twenty or thirty leagues long, which yon must c= ross to the northwest. It terminates at another little river, on which you can embark, it not being difficult to trans= port canoes over so beautiful a country as that prairie. This second river runs southwest for ten or fifteen leagues, after which it enters a small lake, which is the source of another deep river running to the west, where it empties int= o the sea." The brave Christian worker was not correctly informed as to the geography of the region beyond Nebras= ka, but his spirit shines out as one of the most glorious in the annals of devout endeavor through the pages of hi= s journal. Such men are the rare exemplars for the people of all time to shape their lives by. Patient, hopeful, courageous, sincere--the name of Marquette is one to be cherished because of what he was, as well as what he did. The first effort at cartography in the West was made by Father Marquet= te, in 1673. This crude map contains a much closer resemblance to the later and more scientifically designed charts than does that of any of the early maps to the regions attempted to be described. "We found," says the historian of La Salle's voyage down the Mississip= pi, in 1682, " the Ozage [Missouri] River coming from the west. It is fully as large as the River Colbert [Mississippi], into which it empties, troubling it so that from the mouth of the Ozage the water is hardly drinkable." From the St. Lawrence, La Salle returned to France to make arrangement= s for colonizing the country he had explored. In July, 1684, he left Rochelle with a fleet of four vessels= for the mouth of the Mississippi. Being ignorant of the coast, his vessels went too far westward and landed at Matagorda Bay, Texas. This was February 14, 1685. He was fully 120 leagues away from the great river=20= he was in search of. His expedition proved a failure; for one of his vessels was shipwrecked and, on the 1= 4th of March, his principal associate determined to abandon the project of establishing a colony. He left La Salle without mechanical implements and other necessary articles to commence operations with in an uncultivate= d region. He was in an unknown country, on an inhospitable shore, surrounded by savages and exposed to the mos= t imminent dangers. A fort was erected to protect them on the Rivere aux Vaches, which was named St. Louis, i= n honor of the French King. Early in 1686, La Salle decided to return to Canada, taking with him seventeen persons, and leaving twenty at Fort St. Louis, including men, women and children--the wretched remnant of the=20= 180 persons who had accompanied him from France. On his journey from Fort St. Louis, La Salle was assassin= ated by one of his own men and his colony left behind was afterward broken up--nearly all perishing miser= ably at the hands of merciless savages. Thus ended the first attempt at colonizing Louisiana. Any further attempt at colonization of the Lower Mississippi was interrupted by a war between the Iroquois and the British colonies on the one side and the French of Canada on the other, commencing in 1689, which was terminated by the peace of Ryswick in 1697; however, several Canadians= , attracted by the beauty and fertility of the country had, meanwhile, established themselves during this period along the shores of the great river. Settlements were also formed in the Illinois country, east of the Mississippi. As soon as peace was re-established on a solid and permanent basis, the French court bestowed its attentio= n upon the affairs of the New World. On the 27th of February, 1699, Iberville, with a small colony consisting mostly of Canadians, entered the Mississippi from the Gulf. In May, he planted his colony on the Bay of Biloxi, wit= hin the limits of the present State of Mississippi. Sauvolle was the first Governor. He was succeeded by Bienville. LOUISIANA UNDER FRENCH AND SPANISH RULE. On the 17th of September, 1712, the entire province of Louisiana inclu= ding the vast country between the Rocky Mountains on the west and the Alleghanies on the east--in short, the entire area drained by the Mississippi--was granted to Anthony Crozart, a wealthy French merchant. Of course, with= in his grant was the whole of the territory now constitutingthe State of Nebraska. Crozart agreed to sen= d every year two ships from France with goods and emigrants. In his grant, the river "heretofore called Mississippi," is named "St. Louis;" the "Missourys" is called '' St. Phillip;" and the ''Ouabache" (the Ohio and Wabash united) is named "St. Jerome." Louisiana was made dependent upon the General Government of New France (Canada). The laws of Paris were to be observed and enforced in the province. Crozart's patent extended sixte= en years, but was resigned after five years. A short time after its relinquishment, the colony of Louisiana=20= was granted to the Mississippi Company, projected by the celebrated John Law, with authority to monopolize all= the trade and commerce of the province--to declare and prosecute wars and appoint officers. The comp= any built Fort Chartres, about sixty-five miles below the mouth of the Missouri, on the east side of the Mississippi. Miners and mechanics were encouraged to emigrate, and the city of New Orleans was founded in 171= 7. Settlements now began to extend along the banks of the "mighty river," and the Illinois country receiv= ed a considerable accession. Dutisne, a French officer, was sent from New Orleans, in 1719, by Bienville, the Governor of Louisiana, into the country west of the Mississippi. He visited a village of the Osage Indians, five miles from the Osage River, at eighty leagues above its mouth. Thence he crossed to the northwest 120 miles, over prairies abounding with buffaloes, to some Pawnee villages. Fifteen days more of westward marc= hing brought him to the Padoucahs, a brave and warlike nation. Here he erected a cross with the arms of the king, September 27, 1719. If Dutisne did not actually set foot upon what is now the State of Nebraska, he could= not have been very far away on that day. "On the 10th [of October, 1721], about 9 o'clock in the morning, after= we had gone five leagues on the Mississippi," writes Charlevoix, "we arrived at the mouth of the Misso= uri, which is north-northwest and south-southeast. I believe this is the finest confluence in the world.= The two rivers are much of the same breadth, each about half a league; but the Missouri is by far the most rapid, a= nd seems to enter the Mississippi like a conqueror, through which it carries its white waters to the opposite shore, without mixing them; afterward, it gives its color to the Mississippi, which it never loses again, but carries it quite down to the sea." "The Osages," continues Charlevoix, "a pretty numerous nation, settled= on the side of a river which bears their name and which runs into the Missouri about forty leagues from its junction with the Mississippi, send, once or twice a year, to sing the Calumet amongst the Kaskaskias, and are actu= ally there at present. I have also just now seen a Missouri woman, who told me that her nation is the first we mee= t with going up the Missouri, from which she has the name we have given her, for want of knowing her true name.= It [the Missouri nation] is situated eighty leagues from the confluence of that river [the Missouri] with the Mississippi. As early as 1719, the Spaniards in New Mexico, alarmed at the rapid encroachments of the French in the Upper and Lower Mississippi Valleys, made strenuous exertions to dispossess them. In order to accomplish this, they thought it necessary to destroy the Missouri nation, who were in allia= nce with the French. Their plan was to excite the Osages against their neighbors--the Missouris--and then tak= e part in the contest against the latter. An expedition was fitted out in 1720 at Santa F=E9; it was a moving carav= an of the desert. The Spaniards were led to the very tribe they would have destroyed, supposing them to be Osages.= The result was that all were killed except one, who succeeded in making his escape. This boldness of the Spaniards caused the French under M. de Bourgmont to erect a fort on an island in the Missouri, above the m= outh of the Osage River, which post was called "Fort Orleans." But the stockade was attacked after its complet= ion and occupation, and all the garrison slain--by whom was never known. The builder of Fort Orleans, before it= s destruction, passed many leagues up the Kansas River, and made firm friends of the Padoucahs--who had previously been seen by Dutisne. The Indians had previously traded with the Spaniards in New Mexico. The first information extant of the tribes of Indians inhabiting the Missouri River above the Missouri nation, is that given by Charlevoix in 1721: "Higher up we find the Cansez [Kansas]; t= hen the Octotatas [Otoes], which some call Mactotatas; then the Ajouez [Iowas] and Panis [Pawnees], a very populous nation, divided into several cantons, which have names very different from each other. * * All the people I have mentioned inhabit the west side of the Missouri, except the Ajouez, which are on the east side, neighbors of the Sioux, and their allies." It is evident, that, during the first half of the seventeenth century, the country now forming the State of Nebraska was inhabited along its southern border by the Kansas Indians; that the Pl= atte River, then called the Rivere des Panis, was the home of the Pawnees, who had also villages to the northward--a= t a point a considerable distance up the Missouri River. But to the westward, on the head-waters of the Kansas River, of the Platte River and of the Niobrara, lived the Padoucahs--a tribe long since extinct. In the beginning of her history, the State of Kansas is more fortunate than her sister State north. We know to a certainty that as early as 1719, Dutisne visited her territory and tha= t Bourgmont was there in 1724. Now, while it is almost as certain that what is now Nebraska was visited by Frenchme= n not long subsequent to this period, yet the names of these visitors we shall never know. They were traders, hunters and trappers from the Mississippi River and from Canada. They cannot be called explorers, much less colonists. They left no record behind them of the Missouri country and its various tribes. The Mississippi Company, in 1732, surrendered their charter to the Fre= nch Government. Then it was that the "Mississippi bubble" burst. The company had held possession of Louisia= na for fourteen years and left it with a population of 5,000 whites and half as many blacks. The French King, o= n the 10th day of April of that year, declared the province free to all his subjects, with equal privileges=20= as to trade and commerce. But, though the company of the West did little for the enduring welfare of the Mississ= ippi Valley, it did something; the cultivation of tobacco, indigo, rice and silk was introduced; the lead mines of Missouri were opened, and, in the Illinois country, the culture of wheat began to assume some degree of stability= and importance; but the immediate valley of the Missouri still remained wholly in possession of native tribes.=20= For the next thirty years, very little transpired in the upper portions of Louisiana worthy of especial mention. St. Genevieve, on the west side of the Mississippi, within the present limits of the State of Missouri, was founded, and, during the year 1762, the first village was established on the Missouri River within the same State, named "Villag= e du Cote," now St. Charles. In the same year, the Governor General of Louisiana granted to Laclede and others=20= a charter under the name of the "Louisiana Fur Company," which, among other things, conferred the exclusive privilege of trading with the Indians of the Missouri River. But, just before this time, momentous events had transpired in Canada. This country was conquered by the English, and, as we shall now see, Louisi= ana became the property of other powers. CESSION OF LOUISIANA TO THE UNITED STATES. By the British conquest of Canada, in 1760, the province of Louisiana alone remained to France; but even this she was not in a position to hold. Therefore, it was, that, on the 3d=20= of November, 1762, she ceded it to Spain, shorn, however, of its eastern half, which fell to the English. The en= tire region of the Missouri River, including, of course, all that is now the State of Nebraska, was thenceforth, for thirty-seven years, Spanish territory. But Spain did not at once take possession of her portion of Louisiana, as=20= the sequel shows. On the 15th of February, 1764, Laclede's company established itself on the present site of St. Louis, where he founded that city and gave it its name. Two years after this, Don Antonio d'Ulloa, the Spanish Governor, arrived at New Orleans, but was so coldly received that he departed without having produced his credentials. Two years after, a company of Spanish troops took possession of St. Louis in the name of the King of Spain; and, in 1770, French sway was at an end in so mnch of Upper Louisiana as lay west of the Mississippi; f= or, in that year, a Lieutenant Governor arrived at St. Louis and extended his authority over the whole region.= But Great Britain did not long remain the possessor of the country east of the Mississippi; for, by the definite treaty of peace, signed September 3, 1783, the United States was declared to extend from the Atlantic Ocean westw= ard to the Mississippi River, and from a line along the great lakes on the north southward to the thirty-first parallel and southern border of Georgia. Still, the territory now constitnting the State of Nebraska was no part of th= e United States. The vast region bordering upon the Missouri (beginning a short distance above the confluence wit= h the Mississippi) and watered by its tributaries, remained a possession of Spain, and the home of savage nations, visited only by the vagrant trader to traffic in furs with the different tribes. These traders were mostly Frenchmen. Sometimes they would have houses and remain stationary for one, two, and even more years; but, sooner o= r later, they all departed the country. --part1_c1.4edd2de.269bb34d_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: List is slow - [OFF TOPIC] Date: 10 Jul 2000 18:02:26 -0700 On Sun, 09 July 2000, "John Hunt" wrote: > >have him tell you the story about his grandfather's brother that rode with Villa and then ended up in the movies, cool stuff. ********How about sharing it with the rest of us, sounds interesting.*************** > > ---------------------- You asked for it, it's not this "lists" time period, but still early history for those on the list that do the "cowboys shoots", thanks for asking John. Those that are not interested Please delete. George "Buck" Connor ( Leroy N. Conner, Sr.’s older brother[my grand father]) was a bantam rooster of a man when standing next to his brother of 6’1”, he served in the Spanish-American War, had ridden in the Buffalo Bill Wild West Shows and had been a Texas Ranger. During the Mexican Revolution he was commissioned to go to Mexico and take movies of the battles. His final assignment was to cover the War as close as possible in Mexico near the end of the century, he was known to be somewhat of a hot head and had had several run ins with the local Federales. The Federales issued orders that anyone caught with a camera would be shot as a spy. George sent the camera back to the States, instead of returning, and known to like a good fight he ended up as a revolutionary riding with the “army of peons”, wearing the crossed bandoleers of his now famous friends and ex-bandit outlaws Pascual Orozco and Doroteo Arango (Pancho Villa). Upon returning to the U.S. he rode in the Pawnee Bill Wild West Show, his ability and horsemanship landed him in the early years of the movie westerns, he was a stunt man and later a pardner of Buck Jones and Bob Steel in the "Saturday Afternoon Cliff Hangers" that thrilled the kids nation wide. He died in 1947 on the streets of Yuma, AZ as a deputy sheriff, still carrying one of the old Colt’s used in the Villa War, an 1873 Colt Peacemaker, now on display in a Yuma AZ museum. Found in his belongings was an 1862 Colt 36 cal. conversion rimfire and flap holster and belt that was also carried in Mexico, which we now have in a collection with several other items that where given to my father. I knew of some of his life but the family records didn't show a lot about him, other than he had problems with his father J.W. and had changed his last name to Connor. A good article on him in the 1985 Annual Guns & Ammo issue, shows him with his friends in Mexico, armed to the teeth, titled "The Last of the Gunfighters". Hey Hawk is this good facts or just hear say !!! SEE LETTERS AND REPLY BELOW: Date 07-12-97 Ladies & Gentlemen, I was at one of the local video stores in our area, looking for information on “Buck Jones” movies (# 170 your number), mainly one’s that had a co-star by the name of “George Buck Connor”. After checking with several stores a young lady gave me your address and suggested writing you of what I was looking for, as your catalog showed only the main stars and not co-stars. “George Buck Connor”, was a camera man before the turn of the century covering the Villa war in Mexico, when word was put out to kill all camera men and reporters George sent the camera and other material home, joined the revolt until able to cross over into the US. He did many movies as a stuntman before teaming up with Buck Jones. As you have guessed by now we are related, my Grand Father’s brother, George changed the spelling of our name, thinking family won’t know of his fighting with Villa. Any help in finding any of the movies he was in would be great. Barry “Buck” Conner Thu, 29 Jan 98 18:24:40 +0000 e-mail: Dear Mr. Conner: Let me first apologize for the delay in responding to your inquiry about your Grand Father’s brother, Buck / George Connor’s movies. You were given an out-of-date address; the correct one follows at the end of this message. I did some additional research and found a filmography for George. We did not have him listed in our database since the information we receive from suppliers is often very limited, particularly with older titles. I will be adding him to all the titles we list as currently available on video, after a little research I found he has an interesting career in the movie industry, plus his role with Villa in earlier years. Some of his filmography includes: The Westerner (1940) West of Santa Fe (1939) The Law Rides (1936) Alias John Law (1935) No Man's Land (1935) The Last Round-Up (1934) The Thundering Herd (1934) Desert Vengeance (1931) The Dawn Trail (1930) Trails of Peril (1930) Grit Wins (1929) Hell's Heroes (1929) The Crimson Canyon (1928) The Fearless Rider (1928) The Phantom Flyer (1928) The Mojave Kid (1927) Jaws of Steel (1927) The Fighting Three (1927) The Bronco Buster (1927) Hands Off (1927) Hidden Loot (1925) Biff Bang Buddy (1924) Fighting Fury (1924) The Back Trail (1924) The Duke of Chimney Butte (1921) Action (1921) The Phantom Riders (1918) The contiues, but this will give you an idea of how much in demand your great uncle was, very common for thoses with his horseman skills and ability with a gun. Sincerely, Marrit Howard, Video Editor Muze/VideoLog 5665 Oberlin Dr., Ste. 100 San Diego, CA 92121 Later. Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "One who trades" "Uno quien negocia" "Unquil Commerce" English Spanish French * Phila * St.Louis * Trade West * Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Smith Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Re: List is slow - [OFF TOPIC]] Date: 10 Jul 2000 21:14:29 EDT On Sun, 09 July 2000, "John Hunt" wrote: > >have him tell you the story about his grandfather's brother that rode = with Villa and then ended up in the movies, cool stuff. ********How about sha= ring it with the rest of us, sounds interesting.*************** > > ---------------------- buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: You asked for it, it's not this "lists" time period, but still early hist= ory for those on the list that do the "cowboys shoots", thanks for asking Joh= n. Those that are not interested Please delete. Hey Buck, You should have waited for Dennis and Pablo, shown one of these two movie= s; "The Westerner" or "West of Santa Fe", then told them the story and done = a "dog and pony show" with the other stuff. Thanks for sharing. Concho. ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm= ail.netscape.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Re: List is slow - [OFF TOPIC]] Date: 10 Jul 2000 22:55:52 -0400 Thanks for sharing that with us, Buck... I always love a good story, especially when it is family history. Ad Miller ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Re: List is slow - [OFF TOPIC]] Date: 10 Jul 2000 20:23:05 -0700 On Mon, 10 July 2000, "Addison Miller" wrote: > Thanks for sharing that with us, Buck... I always love a good story, especially when it is family history. > > Ad Miller > ---------------------- Thanks Ad, I really liked this post before we got [OFF TOPIC], the LaSalle venture is very interesting, got to talk to some of the gentlemen that made a trek/canoe trip following their path in 1988 or 1989 at Ft. deChartre, ILL, very interesting. Anybody got more information on the original or follow ups on this !!! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Forwarded by David Graybill/MOS/STL/HARCOURT on 07/10/2000 04:29 PM --------------------------- cc: From www.ukans.edu/carrie/kancol About the close of the year 1714, M. Du Tissenet [11], a young Canadian,arrived at the post of Mobile to enter the service of M. Crozat. He brought with him specimens of lead from the mines in the neighborhood of Kaskaskia, which had been given to him by his countrymen who resided at that place. These specimens he tool to M. De la Motte, and on being assayed they were found to contain some silver. He afterward took charge of a grant of land, where he remained until M. Crozat was succeeded by Law,and M. De Boisbriant was appointed Governor of the Illinois district of Louisiana. In October, 1718, M......... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Later. Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "One who trades" "Uno quien negocia" "Unquil Commerce" English Spanish French * Phila * St.Louis * Trade West * Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: MtMan-List: fort Orleans Date: 10 Jul 2000 22:27:06 -0600 Traphand, Thanks for the info. Historic information, no matter which time peroid, can be interesting. A note for us a later time frame- the "Padoucas" listed in the information that he gave to us is a very early name of a tribe which we know better as the Comanches. mike. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Smith Subject: Re: [Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Re: List is slow - [OFF TOPIC]]] Date: 10 Jul 2000 23:33:45 EDT the LaSalle venture is very interesting, got to talk to some of the gentl= emen that made a trek/canoe trip following their path in 1988 or 1989 at Ft. deChartre, ILL, very interesting. Anybody got more information on the ori= ginal or follow ups on this !!! We ran into the same group at Kaskaskia, after deChartre, didn't they hav= e an adventure, very knowledgable of the LaSalle ordeal, that was a good bit o= f information from "traphand". Concho. Got more ? ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm= ail.netscape.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Karl Kroll" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #585 Date: 11 Jul 2000 10:05:17 -0500 I could not agree more with Paul Harvey's comments. JB Sierra with all due respect, I don't think that you should be pushing your religious views (evolution) on Paul Harvey or the rest of us. Calling "evolution" science and Creationism religion, just because it is mentioned in the Bible, tells me that you have much more faith than I have. As an engineer, I was trained in the scientific method. Basically, come up with an idea and examine all the information available to see if the information backs up your original idea. Evolutionists have a different idea they "know that they are correct" and any information that they see backs up their beliefs and ignore information that backs up Creationism. As an example, the PBS TV show NOVA, aired a "science" program that set out to settle the small problem that evolutionists have regarding flight. There were two "scientists" arguing weather animals started flying by jumping out of trees or by waving their arms when they are being chased by another animal. Think about the logic of these arguments and the faith required to belive something that does not make any sense. I would like to experiment with these experts and have the tree jumper jump out of trees and the flapper run away from bears with his arms flapping and see which one passes on more genetic material to their offspring. Finally at the end of the program the jumper said, "look we know that birds evolved some how, so they had to jump out of trees." A scientist in any other disipline would ask themselves, neither of these ideas make any sense so lets look at the fossil record and see that we have a sudden apperance of birds and insects not a gradual change from one animal to another. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: MtMan-List: Buck Date: 11 Jul 2000 11:23:14 -0400 Buck, thanks for sharing your grandfather`s brother with us. John (BIG JOHN) Hunt longhunter mountainman Southwest, Ohio ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #585 Date: 11 Jul 2000 10:58:12 -0500 Karl Kroll, You sound like a pot calling a kettle black saying that JB Sierra is = pushing his views on others. You two should exchange email addresses = and discuss this issue to your hearts' content......with each other Lanney Ratcliff ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: about the list Date: 11 Jul 2000 12:09:04 -0500 Sorry to have to say this, but the list seems to have evaporated into almost nothingness. I would suggest that it could be helped by limiting the length of posts, no more text books on history events, eliminate the repetition of posts which sometimes reappear 2, 3, four or more times. Eliminate, if possible, the messages sent in incomprehensible html format. This is [was] too good a discussion list to see go away, it covers a slice of history that relatively few Americans are aware of, much less understand. Our cussin' and discussin' is important to preserving that historical memory. We need a discussion to get started. Here is a kicker....... 'I think artificial sinew is authentically correct.' Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: about the list Date: 11 Jul 2000 12:20:43 -0500 Here is a kicker....... 'I think artificial sinew is authentically correct.' Yeah, especially if it used to sew a polyester frock... ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Re: List is slow - [OFF TOPIC]] Date: 11 Jul 2000 12:50:36 -0700 buck if you need anything on the ft---suggest you contact steve anderson at ft de chart (SP) ---he works there and is the son of Dan anderson---he has all the history of the fort and lots of pictures and other stuff---not much steave doesnt know---he is also on the address line here in this post--- his email address is: blkpowdr@htc.net steve sorry if i took your name in vain but you may be able to help buck in this--- HAWK On 10 Jul 2000 20:23:05 -0700 buck.conner@uswestmail.net writes: > On Mon, 10 July 2000, "Addison Miller" wrote: > > Thanks for sharing that with us, Buck... I always love a good > story, especially when it is family history. > > > > Ad Miller > > ---------------------- > > Thanks Ad, > > I really liked this post before we got [OFF TOPIC], the LaSalle > venture is very interesting, got to talk to some of the gentlemen > that made a trek/canoe trip following their path in 1988 or 1989 at > Ft. deChartre, ILL, very interesting. Anybody got more information > on the original or follow ups on this !!! > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Forwarded by David Graybill/MOS/STL/HARCOURT on > 07/10/2000 04:29 PM --------------------------- > > From: David Graybill on 06/05/2000 12:49 PM > > To: traphand@aol.com > cc: > Subject: More on Fort Orleans > > From www.ukans.edu/carrie/kancol > > About the close of the year 1714, M. Du Tissenet [11], a young > Canadian,arrived at the post of Mobile to enter the service of M. > Crozat. He brought with him specimens of lead from the mines in the > neighborhood of Kaskaskia, which had been given to him by his > countrymen who resided at that place. > > These specimens he tool to M. De la Motte, and on being assayed they > were found to contain some silver. > > He afterward took charge of a grant of land, where he remained until > M. Crozat was succeeded by Law,and M. De Boisbriant was appointed > Governor of the Illinois district of Louisiana. In October, 1718, > M......... > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Later. > Buck Conner > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > "One who trades" "Uno quien negocia" "Unquil Commerce" > English Spanish French > * Phila * St.Louis * Trade West * > Aux Aliments de Pays! > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account > http://www.uswestmail.net > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: List is slow - [OFF TOPIC] Date: 11 Jul 2000 12:19:05 -0700 buck--- awsome documentation---gad you be a post movie mogel of a neat personna--- if you get by Ft smith look at the pictures in the courthouse---one is my great-great grandad---he worked for hanging Judge Parker as a territorial marshal in indian territory his last name is "piercing cry" changed to pierce by the family in the early 1900's---due to the dislike of indians names in that area at the time---need to get into the picture box at the house in St louis the next time i'm there and see what i have---his son rode with the cody show also and there is some pictures there with writing on the back showing that and there is one with cody and a bunch of the guys---may have one that may include your Kin---he also became a depity after being in the show in madison county ark---in that time span and was always doing tricks and showing off with his piecemaker--- My great great grandad is also buried in a unmarked grave over in the edge of okla---with 6 men that he killed that he was bringing in for the judge---they jumped him and he killed them---2 with his knife as the story goes---his piecemaker was empty and he still had his knife in his hand according to my great great grandmother's storey line---when she took me to the grave sight there in okla---I guess I and my brother are the only ones that know where he is buried now ---always wanted to go there with a metal detector and see what i could find---never had a chance. and with the new laws now it may be a problem---since the area could be consisered as a historical area--- i guess that is the results of not giving in too easy---(GBG) Just my umbel opinion of course--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM Nationals Date: 11 Jul 2000 11:07:26 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2000 10:09 AM > We need a discussion to get started. Here is a kicker....... 'I think > artificial sinew is authentically correct.' > Frank G. Fusco > Mountain Home, Arkansas Frank, Come on now. You can do better than that. Sure it's correct for this age if you're not wanting to depict an earlier age. Guess you'll get no argument from me. I recently participated in an AMM National Rendezvous and in the early part of the week, took a few hardy souls out on a "rescue mission" to see what happend to a hunting party we had sent out earlier with expectations of their early return. We eventually came upon fresh sign of hostiles and shortly joined in battle with said hostiles and our pinned down hunting party. During the Battle, one of our group complained of ignition problems. Since his flint lock would not fire, I assigned him to take care of the wounded once the victim had been dragged to safety. He approached me back in camp with rifle in hand asking for my opinion as to why it wasn't going off. There were a couple problems like a weak main spring and of course the fouling from the couple shots he had gotten off. I noticed his removable touchhole liner was backed out about a 1/16th" and asked for a screw driver. I couldn't reach the slot in the liner with the lock in so that was removed. When I went to screw the liner back in, it slid in with the touch of the screw driver! NO THREAD ENGAGEMENT! There was little that could be done in camp to fix the problem but my best advice for those of you who have removable liners is take them out, throw them away and replace with a fixed liner, preferably a 3/8-32 White Lightning Liner from Jim Chambers or equivilant. Liners were not meant to be removed. Originals either didn't have liners (coned from the inside by a special right angle coning tool) or had permanently installed fixed liners that never came out unless they burned out. Now that I think about it, I recall that the rear of the lock plate was torqued out, perhaps from the pressure of the main charge ignition pusing the liner out against the inside of the pan. Thankfully the liner was mounted so that a portion of it was below the bottom of the pan. Be safe. I remain........... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: about the list Date: 11 Jul 2000 14:10:05 -0400 'I think artificial sinew is authentically correct.' Frank, I agree, but I have been in front of a white hot fire for several hours and my brain is sightly cooked.... What is your excuse? D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Karl Kroll" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #585 Date: 11 Jul 2000 15:32:08 -0500 With all due respect, for JBSierra to criticize Paul Harvey's article because Paul Harvey implies that evolution is not a fact, is a good example evolution being a faith-based religion itself. Some evolutionists even stick a "fish with feet" to the back of their cars, similar to the Christian fish symbol. During my education as a Mechanical Engineer, I was taught the scientific method. Basically get an idea and gather as much information as possible and see if the information backs up your original hypothesis. Evolutionists make a change to this method and rationalize or ignore the evidence that they don't want to see and state evidence that they like as fact. NOVA the PBS TV show aired a program that was supposed to solve the little problem that evolutionists have with flight. Two "scientists" were arguing if birds evolved by jumping out of trees or if they flapped their arms while running away from predators. Think of the logic of this argument, I would like to test the ideas by having the "jumper" jump out of trees and have the "flapper" flap his arms while running away from bears, and see which "scientist" passes on more genetics. At the end of the program, the jumper said "we know the birds fly, so they had have jumped out of trees, until there is a better explination." I wonder if these smart people have ever thought that the sudden appearance of birds and other flying creatures in the fossil record point to a different conclusion. We can all be thankful that scientists and engineers designing cars do not use this illogical method to test their designs. I have twice heard Ira Flato, (spelling?) of NPR, say that snow has finished evolving because it is white, because if it were not white life would not exist. So what if "gene mapping say that all living creatures share 99.9% of the same genetic material." If an ingenious design works, that is so complex that humans may not ever fully understand it, why not use it on all designs. Like Paul Harvey am I must be "sunk in my own ignorance, bias, and religious dogma" not to have the faith to believe in the following: All animals are related, (jelly fish is related to a mountain goat) even though there has never been a single bone or fossil found showing an undisputed change occurring such as a fish growing an arm. That birds evolved from crocodiles without leaving a fossil record. (Look on an evolutionary "tree" and you will see a branch from crocodiles to birds. Never mind the thousands of flying insects) Males and females of all species evolved separately but were still able to mate for billions of years. "Modern humans" have been around for millions of years but the furthest any evolutionist can stretch any evidence of "modern" human existence is "50,000 year old" cave paintings in France. If "we" have been on this planet for 10 million years or more don't you think that humans would have had cities or invented the airplane 50,000 years ago? Animals left and right sides of animals evolved to be the same all by chance. Don't forget there is no "foreword feedback" an animal has to be born with a defect, and then if it helps pass it on to their offspring. So in order for an fish to start growing arms it has to first get an arm growing somewhere, it could be on its head or out of its tail. Were are the animals that are still evolving? Where are the land animals that are in the process of developing an eye on one side of their body? Where are the animals that have not yet evolved both eyes? Lets give three eyes a try. How would an ear for example evolve? Without all parts of the ear working together, the ear is useless. We don't even know how the ear differentiates higher frequencies. Did you know that our brain and ear evolved calculus to determine loudness? Did you know that we evolved accelerometers to measure acceleration? Did you know that if our ears worked any "better" they would be worse because we would hear air molecules bouncing around. (So they must be done evolving.) Do I even have to mention how crucial the balance in the earth, atmosphere, water, and universe is? Have you ever had to take care of a swimming pool? Do you think an ocean would be slightly tougher to maintain a balance? Both creationists and evolutionist have the same problem of where the matter and energy came from to create the universe in the first place. I could go on and on, and I know evolutionists have odd fossils that "show" a change occurring, with a little faith thrown in, and I know they will say that I just don't know enough about biology to know that no transitional fossil forms exist. But they are always faith based rationalizations and excuses. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #585 Date: 11 Jul 2000 17:17:19 EDT > I could go on and on, and I know evolutionists have odd fossils that "show" > a change occurring, with a little faith thrown in, and I know they will say > that I just don't know enough about biology to know that no transitional > fossil forms exist. But they are always faith based rationalizations and > excuses. Pointless observations: Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny. All animals adapt (evolve) to survive in their environnment. Those that don't die (habitat, shelter, food, predators) Fossils only form where conditions are condusive for their formation. A lack of a fossil record proves nothing. Adam and Eve had two children.....one killed the other. Who sired the rest of humanity? Incestuous relationships often sire feeble-minded offspring. Those offspring become obvious in this thread. What does this have to do with the Mountain Man, or has someone discovered a fossil of a mountain man in the stomach of a sabre-toothed tiger? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Mullen Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #585 Date: 11 Jul 2000 15:19:21 -0600 Mr. Kroll, With all due respect this is not the appropriate forum for this discussion. If you would like to pursue this discussion please do so off list and in private with Mr. Sierra. Thank You, David Mullen -- David Mullen 202 Mesa Verde Jemez Springs, NM 87025 (505) 829-3212 email: dmullen@jemez.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: about the list Date: 11 Jul 2000 17:30:53 -0400 With a machine. Ratcliff wrote: > Here is a kicker....... 'I think > artificial sinew is authentically correct.' > > Yeah, especially if it used to sew a polyester frock... > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "atthesea" Subject: MtMan-List: In the belly of a tiger Date: 11 Jul 2000 14:45:39 -0700 Hello the wandering list: Am guessing that when the fossil record shows that a mountain man was indeed found in the belly of a sabre toothed tiger that 39% of list members will question whether the man had historically correct items on his person, 41% will relate a story about the mountain man they found, 8% will ponder whether the man found was actually from the appropriate time period, 6% will worry about the location of the find and whether it constituted the right area to be considered an actual mountain man, and the rest of us, being pure and absolute newbys will wonder, what the h--l is that about anyway? Regards, John Barber in sunny Coos Bay, Oregon (also lookin' for a name...be nice!) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones Subject: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher Date: 11 Jul 2000 15:06:31 -0700 (PDT) A few years ago, Ed "Sidemeat" Ingram wanted to sponsor me for the AMM. Trouble was, I needed another sponsor and then the entry standards were also toughened. Have no trouble with MOST of the now 15 standards listed. I'm a lone wolf who prefers my own company in the same way that Thomas Jefferson did (remember his quote?) Anyways, I might show up in rendezvous finally to see if my company is acceptable and will gladly join if invited. Keep the sun on your back and your powder dry. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #585 Date: 11 Jul 2000 18:52:45 EDT In a message dated 7/11/00 1:45:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time, karl@intercompco.com writes: > Like Paul Harvey am I must be "sunk in my own ignorance, bias, and religious > dogma" yep, now that the first fact with a ring of truth. please take this crap off this list; to its proper forum which ISN'T HERE. its causing people to drop off, not participate and is OFF TOPIC for the purposes of this particular list. get a grip. and a new list to spout off too. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JBSierra@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #585 Date: 11 Jul 2000 20:01:25 EDT Karl: Wow. Engineers are not necessarily trained in science unless they have a science degree i.e. Ph.D. Evolution is not my religion, but creationism is obviously yours as to believe that one day God dropped man in place requires faith. Evolution is an evolving scientific position that get modified when new information arrives. I don't recall the bible being modified as new finding about biblical persons or events become available. Evolution is not a belief but a position based on available data. Science requires hypothesis, data collection, statistical analysis, and replication of results. Religion, with its hundreds, or maybe thousands, of interpretation of writtings, that are at least fifteen hundred years, old hardly builds confidence in one out of all these religious conclusion. I am a spiritual person. But organized religion builds walls between people, protesting that "our way" is the only way. I guess I am a transcendentalist, finding evidence for a higher power all around me in nature. Have faith, I respect that. But don't call creationism science. John ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JBSierra@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #585 Date: 11 Jul 2000 20:02:28 EDT I'm doing just that. Good idea. JBSierra ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JBSierra@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #585 Date: 11 Jul 2000 20:07:01 EDT Karl: It has been suggested that we banter this discussion personally. I agree. JBSierra@aol.com JB ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JBSierra@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #585 Date: 11 Jul 2000 20:10:03 EDT Mountain men survived in part by adapting the Indian world view that all animal share a common bond for survival. Let's hope Mountain men discussion never abandons all together the idea that wilderness is our temple. JBSierra ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #585 Date: 11 Jul 2000 17:42:04 -0700 Gotta tell, ya folks. If this crap doesn't "quit" all of the efforts which have gone into making this a viable forum for "FUR TRADE HISTORY stuff will go down the tubes. IT WILL be lost, because (I think) most of us will bail out !!!! John Funk ! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Rum the Beaver Date: 11 Jul 2000 21:14:45 EDT Last year I ran across an account of a seasoned trapper instructing some trappers new to the mountains to "rum the beaver." I ran across this story in the Dictionary of American Biography while doing some research. For the life of me I can't remember who it was. I've gone back and looked up Fitzpatrick, Sublette, etc. and I can't find the story again. It seems this took place in the storehouse of a Fort and the "instructor" left the recruits with a roomful of plews and several kegs of rum. The recruits, being green, proceeded to drink the rum and were found feeling no pain when the trapper returned. "Next time," he instructed, "rum the beaver, don't drink the rum." Does this story sound vaguely familiar to any of you scholars on the list? It was a damn good one and I'd like to remember it more accurately. Laura Glise ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael W. Finnie" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Rum the Beaver Date: 11 Jul 2000 18:31:08 -0700 I've read the story too, Laura. I don't have the box unpacked to verify it right now, but I *think* it was in one of Ruxton's books. ymhs Mike At 09:14 PM 7/11/00 -0400, you wrote: >returned. "Next time," he instructed, "rum the beaver, don't drink the rum." > >Does this story sound vaguely familiar to any of you scholars on the list? >It was a damn good one and I'd like to remember it more accurately. > >Laura Glise ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael W. Finnie" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Rum the Beaver part deux Date: 11 Jul 2000 18:35:51 -0700 Steven Hall Meek's autobio is one source, and it was an occurance with Sublette http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/smeek.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Rum the Beaver Date: 11 Jul 2000 21:45:56 EDT Sounds to me like one of Joe Meeks' Stories. Can't remember where I read it. If I remember right he was one of the green hands. Crazy Cyot ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: about the list Date: 11 Jul 2000 19:17:58 -0700 On Tue, 11 July 2000, "Frank Fusco" wrote: > Sorry to have to say this, but the list seems to have evaporated into almost nothingness. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Frank, Probably has for some minds, right Dennis. There's nothing wrong with this "list", the only reason for a few {OFF TOPIC] items like of late is do to nothing going on, everyone is on vacation, camps, etc. It seems now that a few have returned and now the list will get back to the original format and time frame, with out a few of the [OFF TOPIC] items, it would make one think the damn thing was broke. Later. Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "One who trades" "Uno quien negocia" "Unquil Commerce" English Spanish French * Phila * St.Louis * Trade West * Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: about the list Date: 11 Jul 2000 22:43:36 -0400 > Probably has for some minds, right Dennis. >>Have no idea what you are talking about, Buck... D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: MtMan-List: Pistol Date: 11 Jul 2000 22:49:48 -0400 Anyone out there have knowledge of late 18th century english (or other) naval pistols with bronze barrels? Tom ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: OFF TOPIC - Buck's Grand Uncle, Patriot movie Date: 11 Jul 2000 23:16:18 -0400 (EDT) www.imdb.org lists the 38 movies he was in and most of the characters he portrayed - also says he was born in San Sabag (San Saba) Texas on Nov.22, 1880. On another similar subject, the city council of Liverpool, England is demanding that Columbia Pictures apologize for villifying one of their native sons - Banastre Tarleton - in the movie Patriot. However, in an article written by Robert A. Selig in the Feb/Mar. 1997 issue of American Heritage magazine, he stated: "Near Portsmouth, Virginia, he [Tarleton] hanged a pregnant woman under a sign reading, 'You will not bear any more rebels.' " ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher Date: 11 Jul 2000 20:43:47 -0700 Aside from being a forum for the historical fur trade and a school in survival, the American Mountain Men is a fraternal organization that seeks its company in like mided individuals. In other words, were supposed to be social. True lone wolves will find that part difficult. You need to be "on the ground" with a number of the members over a certain period of time. Once the boys get to know you, getting two sponsers shouldn't be a problem...unless it is. Larry Huber #1517 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2000 3:06 PM > A few years ago, Ed "Sidemeat" Ingram wanted to > sponsor me for the AMM. Trouble was, I needed another > sponsor and then the entry standards were also > toughened. Have no trouble with MOST of the now 15 > standards listed. I'm a lone wolf who prefers my own > company in the same way that Thomas Jefferson did > (remember his quote?) Anyways, I might show up in > rendezvous finally to see if my company is acceptable > and will gladly join if invited. Keep the sun on your > back and your powder dry. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ssturtle1199@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #585 Date: 11 Jul 2000 23:41:17 EDT Came in tired from work to check list. Honestly, the list last week, even though it was slow still contained informative postings. If this is the results of rendezvous, I'm glad I missed them. These postings aren't worth the keys it took to write them. (Most of them) Till trails cross Turtle ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JBSierra@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: about the list Date: 12 Jul 2000 00:27:01 EDT Agree. JBSierra ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jdsteach@dwave.net Subject: MtMan-List: Rust on the camp set.... Date: 12 Jul 2000 00:17:05 -0500 I finally got to the basement and pulled out my iron camp set. I was unaware how wet it had gotten down there and was greeted with rust. I was told when I bought it that I could reheat it in a fire.....but then what? Seems to me that beeswax was mentioned but I'm not sure. I want to keep it looking as nice as possible. Any suggestions will be welcomed and you can bet it won't get to the basement again. Thanks a heap. jeffreyjack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pistol Date: 12 Jul 2000 00:48:26 -0700 tom there is a good book on english pistols---dont have mine handy but it is in the dixie catalog and also in mountain state---its name is the english pistol a pictoral guide by beebe & bingham on page 34 of their (mountain state) catalog---price is 8.50 the american flintlock pistol also has a couple of brass barrel guns---but not english but similar lines---I have a rifled underhammer boot pistol about 38 cal---original---a bit later in date--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce On Tue, 11 Jul 2000 22:49:48 -0400 tom roberts writes: > Anyone out there have knowledge of late 18th century > english (or other) naval pistols with bronze barrels? > > Tom > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JBSierra@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rust on the camp set.... Date: 12 Jul 2000 01:07:54 EDT I keep all my iron cook ware looking good by coating them first with Pam, then with a coat of olive oil. It seems to work. In a really wet environment, the stuff has to be reapplied about once a year. JBSierra ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: EmmaPeel2@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: about the list Date: 12 Jul 2000 01:14:20 EDT The list is down to nothingness? I'm still here. Sometimes it's better to read, absorb and learn rather than throw your two cents in when you have nothing to contribute to the discussion. Of the dozens of newsgroups Ive belonged to over the years, this is the only one I ever learned anything from. The diversity of topics keeps it from being boring. A tip of the beaver hat to you all. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rust on the camp set.... Date: 11 Jul 2000 22:32:53 -0700 JJ, I'd steel wool off the ugly stuff...then coat liberally (hate that word) with oil/grease and heat over a fire. I just seasoned a frying pan I purchased from buck by cooking a pound of bacon in it..... cured the pan, and had good bacon and avacado sandwiches to boot..... hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rust on the camp set.... Date: 11 Jul 2000 22:26:15 -0700 (PDT) On Wed, 12 Jul 2000 jdsteach@dwave.net wrote: > I finally got to the basement and pulled out my iron camp set. I was > unaware how wet it had gotten down there and was greeted with rust. Hallo I wipe it down with vegtable oil when it gets spotty, don't do much else for it. Seems to keep the rust away... that and store in a a reasonably dry place..... which is usually not hard in Idaho, latest weather patterns excepted Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of North Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders www.geocities.com/northscribe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz Subject: Re: MtMan-List: about the list Date: 11 Jul 2000 22:41:31 -0700 respectfully I'd like to add my 2 cents worth..... I too would love to see oodles of period topics here, but when it gets slow, or otherwise,I like to here anything at all from my brothers (and sisters, tipping the beaver) across this great Nation.... chatter, jokes, funnin'...etc.... I've met many of you, and look forward to meeting the rest...when I do sit across the fire from you I'll have a notion of who you are, and what you are about. Just my opinion ( that and $5 will get you a cup of coffee at starbucks) hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher Date: 12 Jul 2000 00:15:40 -0600 Larry, I don't see this list as being a forum for the historical fur trade and a school in survival. I do see the education aspects of the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade 1800-1850, particularly the Rendezvous approach as being the paramount feature. Of course with this focus, American Mountain Men comes all the related aspects. Liking the history of the American mountain man shows like mindedness on this list. If it is important to you now keep after it. S. Jones. Walt On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Larry Huber Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2000 9:44 PM Aside from being a forum for the historical fur trade and a school in survival, the American Mountain Men is a fraternal organization that seeks its company in like mided individuals. In other words, were supposed to be social. True lone wolves will find that part difficult. You need to be "on the ground" with a number of the members over a certain period of time. Once the boys get to know you, getting two sponsers shouldn't be a problem...unless it is. Larry Huber #1517 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2000 3:06 PM > A few years ago, Ed "Sidemeat" Ingram wanted to > sponsor me for the AMM. Trouble was, I needed another > sponsor and then the entry standards were also > toughened. Have no trouble with MOST of the now 15 > standards listed. I'm a lone wolf who prefers my own > company in the same way that Thomas Jefferson did > (remember his quote?) Anyways, I might show up in > rendezvous finally to see if my company is acceptable > and will gladly join if invited. Keep the sun on your > back and your powder dry. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: fort orleans found http://www.newstribune.com/stories /060200/sta... Date: 12 Jul 2000 07:27:17 EDT --part1_22.855b537.269db015_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit check this site out fort orleans found. traphand --part1_22.855b537.269db015_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-yg03.mx.aol.com (rly-yg03.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.3]) by air-yg01.mail.aol.com (v75.18) with ESMTP; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 01:42:57 -0400 Received: from frank.harcourtbrace.com (frank.harcourtbrace.com [167.208.101.32]) by rly-yg03.mx.aol.com (v75.18) with ESMTP; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 01:42:33 -0400 Received: from harcourtbrace.com (orl-hbc-mta.harcourtbrace.com [167.208.101.14]) by frank.harcourtbrace.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA06111 for ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 01:34:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harcourtbrace.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.3 (733.2 10-16-1998)) id 8525691A.001F59D6 ; Wed, 12 Jul 2000 01:42:26 -0400 X-Lotus-FromDomain: HARCOURT Sender: stl.maintenance@harcourt.com Message-ID: <85256919.0079290D.00@harcourtbrace.com> /060200/sta_... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailer: Unknown ---------------------- Forwarded by STL Maintenance/MOS/STL/HARCOURT on 07/11/2000 04:56 PM --------------------------- STL Maintenance 06/07/2000 07:39 AM cc: /060200/sta_... ---------------------- Forwarded by STL Maintenance/MOS/STL/HARCOURT on 06/07/2000 07:41 AM --------------------------- Traphand@aol.com on 06/07/2000 05:45:40 AM cc: /060200/sta_... Return-Path: Received: from rly-zb05.mx.aol.com (rly-zb05.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.5]) by air-zb02.mail.aol.com (v74.10) with ESMTP; Tue, 06 Jun 2000 17:27:04 -0400 Received: from frank.harcourtbrace.com (frank.harcourtbrace.com [167.208.101.32]) by rly-zb05.mx.aol.com (v74.16) with ESMTP; Tue, 06 Jun 2000 17:26:58 -0400 Received: from harcourtbrace.com (orl-hbc-mta.harcourtbrace.com [167.208.101.14]) by frank.harcourtbrace.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA08622 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 17:19:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by harcourtbrace.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.3 (733.2 10-16-1998)) id 852568F6.0075C4C1 ; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 17:26:20 -0400 X-Lotus-FromDomain: HARCOURT Sender: david.graybill@harcourt.com Message-ID: <852568F6.0075C0F8.00@harcourtbrace.com> /060200/sta_0602000035.asp Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailer: Unknown DE WITT, Mo. (AP) -- John Knight was just poking around on his Carroll County farm last October when he found an antique spear http://www.newstribune.com/stories/060200/sta_0602000035.asp --part1_22.855b537.269db015_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fort orleans found Date: 12 Jul 2000 04:33:44 -0700 (PDT) On Wed, 12 Jul 2000 Traphand@aol.com wrote: > check this site out fort orleans found. Traphand, your email got a wee bit truncated, or at least the www address for the story did.... complete URL is...... http://www.newstribune.com/stories/060200/sta_0602000035.asp Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of North Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders www.geocities.com/northscribe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: prices Date: 12 Jul 2000 05:05:14 -0700 On Tue, 11 July 2000, Randal J Bublitz wrote: Just my opinion ( that and $5 will get you a cup of > coffee at starbucks) hardtack > > ---------------------- Hardtack, I read a government report on the price of coffee (you mentioning $5 At starbucks), in 1831 in St. Louis - gentlemen could expect to pay $1.05 for a good cup of Columbine coffee at some of the fashionable dinning places. Wonder how that worked out (money wise per pound) at the rendezvous for some of the stuff that was passed off to the trade. Buy Folger's and save the difference for equipage. Later. Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "One who trades" "Uno quien negocia" "Unquil Commerce" English Spanish French * Phila * St.Louis * Trade West * Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DRB Hays" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher Date: 12 Jul 2000 06:58:18 -0700 Vanity, Vanity, all is vanity. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2000 11:15 PM > Larry, > > I don't see this list as being a forum for the historical fur trade and a > school in survival. I do see the education aspects of the Rocky Mountain > Fur Trade 1800-1850, particularly the Rendezvous approach as being the > paramount feature. Of course with this focus, American Mountain Men comes > all the related aspects. Liking the history of the American mountain man > shows like mindedness on this list. If it is important to you now keep > after it. S. Jones. > > > Walt > On the Lewis & Clark Trail > Park City, Montana > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Larry Huber > Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2000 9:44 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher > > Aside from being a forum for the historical fur trade and a school in > survival, the American Mountain Men is a fraternal organization that seeks > its company in like mided individuals. In other words, were supposed to be > social. True lone wolves will find that part difficult. You need to be "on > the ground" with a number of the members over a certain period of time. > Once the boys get to know you, getting two sponsers shouldn't be a > problem...unless it is. > > Larry Huber #1517 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: S Jones > To: > Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2000 3:06 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher > > > > A few years ago, Ed "Sidemeat" Ingram wanted to > > sponsor me for the AMM. Trouble was, I needed another > > sponsor and then the entry standards were also > > toughened. Have no trouble with MOST of the now 15 > > standards listed. I'm a lone wolf who prefers my own > > company in the same way that Thomas Jefferson did > > (remember his quote?) Anyways, I might show up in > > rendezvous finally to see if my company is acceptable > > and will gladly join if invited. Keep the sun on your > > back and your powder dry. > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! > > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Matt Porter Subject: MtMan-List: Leggings Date: 12 Jul 2000 08:40:03 -0500 Ho the list! I've about completed my shirt, broadfall trousers, and vest; and I wanted to know what type and weight of leather should I make my leggings that will go over trousers. There went another one of those questions, Dennis... YMHS Matt Porter Located in a hot and humid thicket in Sardis, Arkansas. ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fort orleans found Date: 12 Jul 2000 10:28:53 -0400 Sounds like a great place for a future 'Vous.... Ad Miller ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leggings Date: 12 Jul 2000 11:12:39 -0400 Matt, I would suggest using brain tan. If you deer hunt, it is free, except for the labor... D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher Date: 12 Jul 2000 09:28:08 -0700 (PDT) Thanks for your reply. My interest in the AMM is of course to attain recognition of my involvement in buckskinning. Reviewing the 15 requirements during the 2 year Pilgrim period, I won't have MUCH difficulty in satisfying but neither is it a breeze. I am profoundly deaf which is more of a social liability than a physical handicap (handicap? hell, I sleep well, kids noise doesn't bother me, etc. handicap? huh). Therein lies my problem. I shy away from gatherings be it the local bars, church meetings or rendezvous. If it's just a shoot, then I'm ok, I shoot first, then camp, then drink til darkness falls and that's my day. Requirement no. 5 is the only one to give me pause. Requirement no. 15 might occur this September if I draw an elk permit(hoping). As some one else said on this list "Vanity. All is vanity." (who said that?) I agree. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Larry Huber > Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2000 9:44 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher > > Aside from being a forum for the historical fur trade and a school in > survival, the American Mountain Men is a fraternal organization that seeks > its company in like mided individuals. In other > words, were supposed to > be > social. True lone wolves will find that part > difficult. You need to be > "on > the ground" with a number of the members over a > certain period of time. > Once the boys get to know you, getting two > sponsers shouldn't be a > problem...unless it is. > > Larry Huber #1517 > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: S Jones > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2000 3:06 PM > > Subject: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher > > > > > > A few years ago, Ed "Sidemeat" Ingram wanted to > > sponsor me for the AMM. Trouble was, I needed another > > sponsor and then the entry standards were also > > toughened. Have no trouble with MOST of the now > 15 > > standards listed. I'm a lone wolf who prefers my > own > > company in the same way that Thomas Jefferson > did > > (remember his quote?) Anyways, I might show up > in > > rendezvous finally to see if my company is > acceptable > > and will gladly join if invited. Keep the sun on > your > > back and your powder dry. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: MtMan-List: ANTIQUE HORNS ? Date: 12 Jul 2000 12:43:55 -0700 I have a antique blowing horn that dates back to the 1800's. It has the names and birth dates of some of my wifes relatives carved on it. The problem is, there is some kind of critter cutting little holes in it. My question is, what kind of critter does this kind damage, and what can I do to stop them from continueing to harm the horn short of storing it away in a cedar chest ? Larry Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher Date: 12 Jul 2000 11:41:07 -0600 Walt, They are talking about joining the American Mountain Men (AMM), the modern organization. Not the phrase you always use, referring to the original mountain men. If you must use the phrase, how about using American mountain men instead, it would clear up misunderstandings, and at least some members of this list would appreciate it. Allen At 12:15 AM 07/12/2000 -0600, you wrote: >Larry, > >I don't see this list as being a forum for the historical fur trade and a >school in survival. I do see the education aspects of the Rocky Mountain >Fur Trade 1800-1850, particularly the Rendezvous approach as being the >paramount feature. Of course with this focus, American Mountain Men comes >all the related aspects. Liking the history of the American mountain man >shows like mindedness on this list. If it is important to you now keep >after it. S. Jones. > > >Walt >On the Lewis & Clark Trail >Park City, Montana > > -----Original Message----- >From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >[mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Larry Huber >Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2000 9:44 PM >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher > >Aside from being a forum for the historical fur trade and a school in >survival, the American Mountain Men is a fraternal organization that seeks >its company in like mided individuals. In other words, were supposed to be >social. True lone wolves will find that part difficult. You need to be "on >the ground" with a number of the members over a certain period of time. >Once the boys get to know you, getting two sponsers shouldn't be a >problem...unless it is. > >Larry Huber #1517 > >----- Original Message ----- >From: S Jones >To: >Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2000 3:06 PM >Subject: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher > > >> A few years ago, Ed "Sidemeat" Ingram wanted to >> sponsor me for the AMM. Trouble was, I needed another >> sponsor and then the entry standards were also >> toughened. Have no trouble with MOST of the now 15 >> standards listed. I'm a lone wolf who prefers my own >> company in the same way that Thomas Jefferson did >> (remember his quote?) Anyways, I might show up in >> rendezvous finally to see if my company is acceptable >> and will gladly join if invited. Keep the sun on your >> back and your powder dry. >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! >> http://mail.yahoo.com/ >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ANTIQUE HORNS ? Date: 12 Jul 2000 15:59:58 -0500 Larry, I have had good results using mothballs on all of my antique horn items. I store them in a ziplock bag with the mothballs. I forget what the name of the pest is that does this damage. There was an article in Muzzleblasts a few months back that dealt with the preservation of antique powderhorns authored by Jim Dresslar and it gave the name of it. Jim said he gives his horns a shot of "Raid" inside and out, and that does the trick for him. He has the largest collection of Colonial American powderhorns that I know of... northwoods -----Original Message----- >I have a antique blowing horn that dates back to the 1800's. It has the >names and birth dates of some of my wifes relatives carved on it. The >problem is, there is some kind of critter cutting little holes in it. My >question is, what kind of critter does this kind damage, and what can I do >to stop them from continueing to harm the horn short of storing it away in a >cedar chest ? >Larry Pendleton > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DRB Hays" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher Date: 12 Jul 2000 13:33:20 -0700 OMG-- trying to make the old man polictically correct---OMG---- I think I done gone under, its poor BULL for sure, tipi full of pee-pee, where's my hair-piece, lordy we are going to make em' come now for sure, I am telling you--- there is going to be some doins' when the PC police be booshway! WAGH! ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2000 10:41 AM > Walt, > > They are talking about joining the American Mountain Men (AMM), the modern > organization. Not the phrase you always use, referring to the original > mountain men. > > If you must use the phrase, how about using American mountain men instead, > it would clear up misunderstandings, and at least some members of this list > would appreciate it. > > Allen > > At 12:15 AM 07/12/2000 -0600, you wrote: > >Larry, > > > >I don't see this list as being a forum for the historical fur trade and a > >school in survival. I do see the education aspects of the Rocky Mountain > >Fur Trade 1800-1850, particularly the Rendezvous approach as being the > >paramount feature. Of course with this focus, American Mountain Men comes > >all the related aspects. Liking the history of the American mountain man > >shows like mindedness on this list. If it is important to you now keep > >after it. S. Jones. > > > > > >Walt > >On the Lewis & Clark Trail > >Park City, Montana > > > > -----Original Message----- > >From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >[mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Larry Huber > >Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2000 9:44 PM > >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher > > > >Aside from being a forum for the historical fur trade and a school in > >survival, the American Mountain Men is a fraternal organization that seeks > >its company in like mided individuals. In other words, were supposed to be > >social. True lone wolves will find that part difficult. You need to be "on > >the ground" with a number of the members over a certain period of time. > >Once the boys get to know you, getting two sponsers shouldn't be a > >problem...unless it is. > > > >Larry Huber #1517 > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: S Jones > >To: > >Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2000 3:06 PM > >Subject: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher > > > > > >> A few years ago, Ed "Sidemeat" Ingram wanted to > >> sponsor me for the AMM. Trouble was, I needed another > >> sponsor and then the entry standards were also > >> toughened. Have no trouble with MOST of the now 15 > >> standards listed. I'm a lone wolf who prefers my own > >> company in the same way that Thomas Jefferson did > >> (remember his quote?) Anyways, I might show up in > >> rendezvous finally to see if my company is acceptable > >> and will gladly join if invited. Keep the sun on your > >> back and your powder dry. > >> > >> __________________________________________________ > >> Do You Yahoo!? > >> Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! > >> http://mail.yahoo.com/ > >> > >> ---------------------- > >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >> > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "jdearing" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: ANTIQUE HORNS ? Date: 12 Jul 2000 18:01:36 -0500 there is some kind of critter cutting little holes in it. My > question is, what kind of critter does this kind damage, and what can I do > to stop them from continueing to harm the horn short of storing it away in a > cedar chest ? > You might check out this page on staining horns. It also has some information on critters that eat on horn and how to get rid of them. You can also contact the Mad Monk a.k.a. Bill Knight to inqire about any considerations about using modern insecticides. http://www.elephantblackpowder.com/knight/omega.htm BTW, this Mr. Knight is no relation to the inventor and manufacturer of the dreaded inline ML guns. J.D. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher Date: 12 Jul 2000 17:04:00 -0600 S. Jones, Can you tell me what the 15 requirements are? Walt On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of S Jones Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2000 10:28 AM Thanks for your reply. My interest in the AMM is of course to attain recognition of my involvement in buckskinning. Reviewing the 15 requirements during the 2 year Pilgrim period, I won't have MUCH difficulty in satisfying but neither is it a breeze. I am profoundly deaf which is more of a social liability than a physical handicap (handicap ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher Date: 12 Jul 2000 17:08:45 -0600 On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Allen Hall Hi Allen, I did use that distinction for the very reason you mention. Another writer uses the phrase "over the mountain men". Dropping the word over to establish a link to "the mountain men" to the east of the historic area. Removing the word over from the phrase changes everything. Walt Walt, They are talking about joining the American Mountain Men (AMM), the modern organization. Not the phrase you always use, referring to the original mountain men. If you must use the phrase, how about using American mountain men instead, it would clear up misunderstandings, and at least some members of this list would appreciate it. Allen At 12:15 AM 07/12/2000 -0600, you wrote: >Larry, > >I don't see this list as being a forum for the historical fur trade and a >school in survival. I do see the education aspects of the Rocky Mountain >Fur Trade 1800-1850, particularly the Rendezvous approach as being the >paramount feature. Of course with this focus, American Mountain Men comes >all the related aspects. Liking the history of the American mountain man >shows like mindedness on this list. If it is important to you now keep >after it. S. Jones. > > >Walt >On the Lewis & Clark Trail >Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TheTain@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Book Recommendation Date: 12 Jul 2000 19:26:11 EDT While on a recent trip up to Coeur d'Alene, Idaho I visited the museum in Boise. Not a whole lot about mountain men or the fur trade in their museum there. However, while browsing through the museum store I ran across a book: "The Last of the Mountain Men" by Harold Peterson. Published by: Backeddy Books Box 301 Cambridge, Idaho, 83610. It is the story of Sylvan A. Hart a.k.a. "Buckskin Bill." While not an "adventure" story, it is the story of one man living in the wilderness, fending for himself. I enjoyed the read. Did his own blacksmithing, built his own Blackpowder rifles, gardened, hunted, trapped, panned gold, you name it... he did it. He lived in the wilderness alone for over 30 years. If you can find it, I would recommend it as an enjoyable, easy read. Especially for those of us who appreciate and enjoy life in the mountains. Yours in Freedom... Joe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Leggings Date: 12 Jul 2000 18:26:53 -0600 Matt, Any light weight leather will work. Deer, antelope will do fine. Since it is going over the pants, you need it to be thin (but durable). Stay away from split or shaved leather. Usually this kind is a heavier weight that will still be hot to wear. Brain tan is the best, flexable, breathable but it is alot of work. Probably the most important things when making leggings is making the ties and not having bagging knees! mike. Matt Porter wrote: > Ho the list! > I've about completed my shirt, broadfall trousers, and vest; and I > wanted to know what type and weight of leather should I make my leggings > that will go over trousers. There went another one of those questions, > Dennis... > > YMHS > Matt Porter > Located in a hot and humid thicket in Sardis, Arkansas. > ________________________________________________________________ > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher Date: 12 Jul 2000 16:28:43 -0700 (PDT) --- Walt Foster wrote: > S. Jones, > > Can you tell me what the 15 requirements are? > > Walt > On the Lewis & Clark Trail > Park City, Montana Pardon me for assuming anyone would know what I am writing about. The membership requirements can be found on their home page. Believe it or not, my main difficulty is finding or recognizing potential sponsors. The Bossloper (Full) Membership in the American Mountain Men are as follows: AMM Bossloper Requirements Membership in the AMM is by invitation only. Once invited, to become a full-fledged member of the AMM, you must complete any ten of the requirements below during your two year Pilgrim (probationary) period. 1. Must have a full set of hand-cut and -sewn clothing and handmade accoutrements. These must be researched for authenticity of the 1800-40 period and be of a type which would have been seen on men in, or moving to, the Rocky Mountains. Rifles, saddles, traps, blankets, and other accoutrements that would normally have required the work of a specialized craftsman need not be handmade, but must be as authentic as can be purchased today. 2. Must have spent at least two days and one night in a primitive camp during each season of the year. 3. Must have spent an accumulative time of two or more weeks in the wilderness under primitive conditions in the company of no more than one other member. Each stay must be at least three full days and two full nights. 4. Must have spent at least one full week in a primitive encampment in the company of other members at the territorial AMM Rendezvous (Eastern or Western) and/or the National (Rocky Mountain) AMM Rendezvous. 5. Must be able to demonstrate the skills needed for primitive survival in the wilderness of his area and must be willing to teach said skills to other members when requested by a Party Booshway or Director of this Association. 6. Must be able to demonstrate trapping ability using steel traps, snares, and traps made from natural materials found in the area. As many states do not allow the use of some, or any, of these traps, the actual taking of game is not required, although it is suggested where possible and legal. 7. Must be able to demonstrate ability to track man or animal under natural wilderness conditions. 8. Must be able to demonstrate the ability to properly pack a horse, canoe (or bullboat), or a man for distance travel under possible adverse conditions. 9. Must be able to properly field dress (clean and skin) a game animal under primitive conditions. 10. Must be able to start a fire in wet, as well as dry, weather using flint and steel or fire drill using tinder and wood found under natural conditions. 11. Must be able to show ability to tan or Indian-dress hides. 12. Must have spent at least five days traveling on foot, snowshoe, canoe, and/or horseback. a. One method or a combination may be used. b. Bullboat may be used in place of canoe. c. You are expected to gain as much distance as possible. d.This trip must be under primitive conditions, taking nothing that would not have been available to the mountain man between 1800-1840. Rifle, hunting bag, powder horn, and knife must be along. 13. Must be able to cook a meal of meat using only the meat, fire, a knife, and materials found in nature. 14. Must be able to converse using Plains Indians hand talk. The 200 words on page 64 of Tompkin's book "Indian Sign Language", will be used as a basis for conversation. To complete this requirement, you must demonstrate your ability to read the signs for 50 words, as well as to give the signs for 50 words. 15. Must have hunted for and killed at least one game or fur animal with a muzzleloading firearm or primitive bow and must have used the skin and/or meat for food, clothing and/or accoutrements. The hunt must be made from a strictly primitive camp, the hunt accomplished under primitive conditions within the limits of local game laws. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher Date: 12 Jul 2000 16:55:30 -0700 > I did use that distinction for the very reason you mention. Another writer > uses the phrase "over the mountain men". Dropping the word over to > establish a link to "the mountain men" to the east of the historic area. > Removing the word over from the phrase changes everything. Walt "As pointed out last night on the History Channel's program about the pivotal battles in our early history, the Battle of Kings Mountain against the British under Ferguson (inventor of the Ferguson Breech loading flint lock rifle) the winners of that battle were the "Over Mountain Men". Read that "Mountain Men", nay, read that "The First North American 'Mountain Men'. Any who can claim that title later are still late comers to the name and owe to their fore barers all due respect as the "First of the Mountain Men". " Walt, If we're going to get picky then let's quote accuratly. Above is a copy of what the writer originally wrote. In that particular passage the reference was to the "Over Mountain Men" as they were historically called, not "over the mountain men" as you propose. These individuals were also refered to as the "Mountain Men" as a term of respect and recognition historically in their own time. The writer was trying to make the point that these individuals comprised the First Mountain Men in America. History records that this was the case. These men came from the western most fringes of the new Nation and fought during the Kings Mountain Battle of our Revolutionary War. I would venture to suggest that they also went on to be the same hardy frontiersmen who went further west during this country's early 19th Century Fur Trade in the Rocky Mountains. I can assure you that the writer did not mean to take anything away from the couragious late comers who explored and made their way in the Rocky Mountains and made their names great amongst us , but rather intended to put things in historical perspective which I believe he did. I remain.... Respectfully, Farther down the Trail of L&C, YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher Date: 12 Jul 2000 20:23:21 -0500 S Jones , I know not your name so I can't address this properly as you've failed to introduce yourself to this list. RE: AMM membership AMM is not much about requirements. AMM is not much about buckskinners or buckskinning. AMM ain't much about drinking. The worst reason to join AMM is because you consider it a credential. AMM is a brotherhood of men with a common historical interest. In order to know a man as a brother whom you've never met means you must trust the word of your known brothers that anyone they may ask to join is of like mind. Sponsorship is the weightiest responsibility each member holds, that is why it can be difficult to join. It is not a perfect system: it is the one we abide by. Some take the responsibility more seriously than do others. Unless you get to know a member well it ain't likely to happen. You may already know members (some don't wear their affiliation on their sleeve). I have never sponsored and always spoken against those who were begging to get in. It is always for the wrong reasons. AMM is not for everyone. It was not founded to provide anyone "recognition" for their involvement in buckskinning. John... #656 At 09:28 AM 7/12/2000 -0700, you wrote: >Thanks for your reply. My interest in the AMM is of >course to attain recognition of my involvement in >buckskinning. Reviewing the 15 requirements during the >2 year Pilgrim period, I won't have MUCH difficulty in >satisfying but neither is it a breeze. I am profoundly >deaf which is more of a social liability than a >physical handicap (handicap? hell, I sleep well, kids >noise doesn't bother me, etc. handicap? huh). Therein >lies my problem. I shy away from gatherings be it the >local bars, church meetings or rendezvous. If it's >just a shoot, then I'm ok, I shoot first, then camp, >then drink til darkness falls and that's my day. >Requirement no. 5 is the only one to give me pause. >Requirement no. 15 might occur this September if I >draw an elk permit(hoping). As some one else said on >this list "Vanity. All is vanity." (who said that?) I >agree. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On >Behalf Of Larry Huber > > Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2000 9:44 PM > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets >tougher > > > > Aside from being a forum for the historical fur >trade and a school in > > survival, the American Mountain Men is a fraternal >organization that seeks > > its company in like mided individuals. In other > > words, were supposed to > > be > > social. True lone wolves will find that part > > difficult. You need to be > > "on > > the ground" with a number of the members over a > > certain period of time. > > Once the boys get to know you, getting two > > sponsers shouldn't be a > > problem...unless it is. > > > > Larry Huber #1517 > > > If it ain't exactly right, it's wrong. john ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher Date: 12 Jul 2000 19:48:50 -0600 S. Jones Looks pretty straight forward to me. A bit easier than the original which was spending a year in the mountains. I note the use of the bow! I do hope you can lash up with someone who can give you the opportunity to realize your dream. Walt 15. Must have hunted for and killed at least one game or fur animal with a muzzleloading firearm or primitive bow and must have used the skin and/or meat for food, clothing and/or accoutrements. The hunt must be made from a strictly primitive camp, the hunt accomplished under primitive conditions within the limits of local game laws. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher Date: 12 Jul 2000 19:48:52 -0600 Roger, My grandmother Wilson was from the neck of the woods under discussion. She was very proud of being a Daughter of the American Republic [DAR] and her Cherokee heritage as well. My Aunt Nathalie was named after Nathan Foster who left New York right after the Revolutionary War for what we now call Missouri. They referred to their relations as woods men not mountain men. I believe this dilutes history not strengthens it. I do not think the writer makes a valid point but you are entitled to your opinion. I think John Colter was the first American mountain man. One condition for a green horn was to spend a year in the Rocky Mountains. Walt Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: OT (sorta): Thankee Kindly Date: 12 Jul 2000 21:57:38 -0400 (EDT) to Hawk, Buck, Lanney for sharing some of your very interesting ancestors stories. God the Great Spirit Father and His Only Begotten Son have definitely seen in their wisdom and foreknowledge to pass many of your forefathers noble DNA traits down to ye. Have high hopes that ye will continue to fare well. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher Date: 12 Jul 2000 19:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Pardon my faux-pas for not introducing myself. I am Steven R Jones, an outdoor enthusiast since childhood. The transition from my early backpacking/gypsy days to buckskinning/historical re-enactments (Pawnee Rock/Fort larned) seamless, requiring just an exchange of clothes and re-adopting the old materials like linen, leather and wool. I've shot blackpowder since my first CVA kit in 1981(?). I met the Jedediah Smith Muzzleloading Club of Dodge City, Kansas and joined them in 1984, I believe. Ed 'Sidemeat' Ingram of Tribune, KS, told me about the American Mountain Men then and offered to sponsor me for membership since I was intrigued by his stories. I've braindressed a few deerskins and given them to friends. I've heard about my Cherokee ancestors back in North Carolina and Oklahoma, the ones who survived the Trail of Tears and Andrew Jackson refusal to enforce the Supreme Court decision in the tribe's favor. I could go on but I think I got the gist on the list now. Your comment on credentials set me thinking again. Why indeed do I look for an invitation? I suppose it's unfinished business from a few years ago originally. I have time now that I only have myself to care of now. I already do or am doing most of the requirements. That satisfaction will be sufficient. I guess I am looking for company so should I go to the bigger rendezvous now? Where else? Joining the Bosslopers would not give me bragging rights. I am still a seeker of knowledge and MAYBE a teacher of a lesson or two. You are right, it's the members that's important, not the credentials. Whether or not I am recognized doesn't matter. --- John Kramer wrote: > S Jones , > > I know not your name so I can't address this > properly as you've failed to > introduce yourself to this list. > > > RE: AMM membership > > AMM is not much about requirements. > > AMM is not much about buckskinners or buckskinning. > > AMM ain't much about drinking. > > The worst reason to join AMM is because you consider > it a credential. > > AMM is a brotherhood of men with a common historical > interest. > > In order to know a man as a brother whom you've > never met means you must > trust the word of your known brothers that anyone > they may ask to join is > of like mind. Sponsorship is the weightiest > responsibility each member > holds, that is why it can be difficult to join. It > is not a perfect > system: it is the one we abide by. Some take the > responsibility more > seriously than do others. > > Unless you get to know a member well it ain't likely > to happen. You may > already know members (some don't wear their > affiliation on their sleeve). > > I have never sponsored and always spoken against > those who were begging to > get in. It is always for the wrong reasons. > > AMM is not for everyone. It was not founded to > provide anyone > "recognition" for their involvement in buckskinning. > > John... #656 > > > > At 09:28 AM 7/12/2000 -0700, you wrote: > >Thanks for your reply. My interest in the AMM is of > >course to attain recognition of my involvement in > >buckskinning. Reviewing the 15 requirements during > the > >2 year Pilgrim period, I won't have MUCH difficulty > in > >satisfying but neither is it a breeze. I am > profoundly > >deaf which is more of a social liability than a > >physical handicap (handicap? hell, I sleep well, > kids > >noise doesn't bother me, etc. handicap? huh). > Therein > >lies my problem. I shy away from gatherings be it > the > >local bars, church meetings or rendezvous. If it's > >just a shoot, then I'm ok, I shoot first, then > camp, > >then drink til darkness falls and that's my day. > >Requirement no. 5 is the only one to give me pause. > >Requirement no. 15 might occur this September if I > >draw an elk permit(hoping). As some one else said > on > >this list "Vanity. All is vanity." (who said that?) > I > >agree. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On > >Behalf Of Larry Huber > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2000 9:44 PM > > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets > >tougher > > > > > > Aside from being a forum for the historical fur > >trade and a school in > > > survival, the American Mountain Men is a > fraternal > >organization that seeks > > > its company in like mided individuals. In other > > > words, were supposed to > > > be > > > social. True lone wolves will find that part > > > difficult. You need to be > > > "on > > > the ground" with a number of the members over a > > > certain period of time. > > > Once the boys get to know you, getting two > > > sponsers shouldn't be a > > > problem...unless it is. > > > > > > Larry Huber #1517 > > > > > > If it ain't exactly right, it's wrong. > john > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher Date: 12 Jul 2000 19:10:48 -0700 (PDT) Oh yeah, one more item. I wanted an invitation to join just so I can assess the archives since I'm not a member. No password for farts like me, huh? --- John Kramer wrote: > S Jones , > > I know not your name so I can't address this > properly as you've failed to > introduce yourself to this list. > > > RE: AMM membership > > AMM is not much about requirements. > > AMM is not much about buckskinners or buckskinning. > > AMM ain't much about drinking. > > The worst reason to join AMM is because you consider > it a credential. > > AMM is a brotherhood of men with a common historical > interest. > > In order to know a man as a brother whom you've > never met means you must > trust the word of your known brothers that anyone > they may ask to join is > of like mind. Sponsorship is the weightiest > responsibility each member > holds, that is why it can be difficult to join. It > is not a perfect > system: it is the one we abide by. Some take the > responsibility more > seriously than do others. > > Unless you get to know a member well it ain't likely > to happen. You may > already know members (some don't wear their > affiliation on their sleeve). > > I have never sponsored and always spoken against > those who were begging to > get in. It is always for the wrong reasons. > > AMM is not for everyone. It was not founded to > provide anyone > "recognition" for their involvement in buckskinning. > > John... #656 > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT (sorta): Thankee Kindly Date: 12 Jul 2000 19:18:34 -0700 On Wed, 12 July 2000, JON MARINETTI wrote: > > to Hawk, Buck, Lanney for sharing some of your very interesting ancestors stories. God the Great Spirit Father and His Only Begotten Son have definitely seen in their wisdom and foreknowledge to pass many of your forefathers noble DNA traits down to ye. Have high hopes that ye will continue to fare well. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ John, We thank you for thoughts, but we where not bragging per say, just sharing. Everyone on this list has family with interesting history, that's why we are on this list - to share with each other. I personally feel the greatest historian and a very good friend that most have met in our live time is Charles E. Hanson, Jr. What would the fur trade be today without his work and never ending ability to share with all. Let's not forget Marie (Charleys Mrs.), she was the backbone of the Museum of the Fur Trade and supported her husband in every venture. I think as a whole, we (the "list") do pretty good at staying on the subjects at hand, some think otherwise, but overall Dean should be happy with what he started. In the spirit of the Hanson's, your families histories and others keep the channels open and share. Thanks to our "list" members. Later. Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "One who trades" "Uno quien negocia" "Unquil Commerce" English Spanish French * Phila * St.Louis * Trade West * Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Huntershorn1@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: please take me off the mailing list Date: 12 Jul 2000 22:19:54 EDT please take me off the mailing list ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT (sorta): Thankee Kindly Date: 12 Jul 2000 19:28:14 -0700 On Wed, 12 July 2000, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > I personally feel the greatest historian and a very good friend that most have met in our live [mis-spelled should have been "life"] time is Charles E. Hanson, Jr...... .....in our live [life]...... sorry, having trouble with cramps in my hands again and hitting the wrong keys, for taking part in something you enjoy - didn't think it would have to hurt !!! Getting old, rode hard and put away wet I figure. Later. Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "One who trades" "Uno quien negocia" "Unquil Commerce" English Spanish French * Phila * St.Louis * Trade West * Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher Date: 12 Jul 2000 21:36:43 -0500 Well said, John. YF&B Lanney #1585 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher Date: 12 Jul 2000 20:53:20 -0600 On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana 15. Must have hunted for and killed at least one game or fur animal with a muzzleloading firearm or primitive bow and must have used the skin and/or meat for food, clothing and/or accoutrements. The hunt must be made from a strictly primitive camp, the hunt accomplished under primitive conditions within the limits of local game laws. I would like to know why the bow has not been a topic of discussion on this list? Walt Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher Date: 12 Jul 2000 22:09:48 -0700 John, Extremely well said. You pretty much hit all the nails squarely on the head. Pendleton # 1572 -----Original Message----- S Jones , I know not your name so I can't address this properly as you've failed to introduce yourself to this list. RE: AMM membership AMM is not much about requirements. AMM is not much about buckskinners or buckskinning. AMM ain't much about drinking. The worst reason to join AMM is because you consider it a credential. AMM is a brotherhood of men with a common historical interest. In order to know a man as a brother whom you've never met means you must trust the word of your known brothers that anyone they may ask to join is of like mind. Sponsorship is the weightiest responsibility each member holds, that is why it can be difficult to join. It is not a perfect system: it is the one we abide by. Some take the responsibility more seriously than do others. Unless you get to know a member well it ain't likely to happen. You may already know members (some don't wear their affiliation on their sleeve). I have never sponsored and always spoken against those who were begging to get in. It is always for the wrong reasons. AMM is not for everyone. It was not founded to provide anyone "recognition" for their involvement in buckskinning. John... #656 At 09:28 AM 7/12/2000 -0700, you wrote: >Thanks for your reply. My interest in the AMM is of >course to attain recognition of my involvement in >buckskinning. Reviewing the 15 requirements during the >2 year Pilgrim period, I won't have MUCH difficulty in >satisfying but neither is it a breeze. I am profoundly >deaf which is more of a social liability than a >physical handicap (handicap? hell, I sleep well, kids >noise doesn't bother me, etc. handicap? huh). Therein >lies my problem. I shy away from gatherings be it the >local bars, church meetings or rendezvous. If it's >just a shoot, then I'm ok, I shoot first, then camp, >then drink til darkness falls and that's my day. >Requirement no. 5 is the only one to give me pause. >Requirement no. 15 might occur this September if I >draw an elk permit(hoping). As some one else said on >this list "Vanity. All is vanity." (who said that?) I >agree. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On >Behalf Of Larry Huber > > Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2000 9:44 PM > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets >tougher > > > > Aside from being a forum for the historical fur >trade and a school in > > survival, the American Mountain Men is a fraternal >organization that seeks > > its company in like mided individuals. In other > > words, were supposed to > > be > > social. True lone wolves will find that part > > difficult. You need to be > > "on > > the ground" with a number of the members over a > > certain period of time. > > Once the boys get to know you, getting two > > sponsers shouldn't be a > > problem...unless it is. > > > > Larry Huber #1517 > > > If it ain't exactly right, it's wrong. john ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pistol Date: 12 Jul 2000 23:14:06 -0400 Hawk - somehow I knew you would likely be the first responder with a good tip - thanks. I'll get the book. BTW, here's a website that might be of interest to some: http://www.antiqueguns.com/ Tom hawknest4@juno.com wrote: > tom there is a good book on english pistols---dont have mine handy but it > is in the dixie catalog and also in mountain state---its name is the > english pistol a pictoral guide by beebe & bingham on page 34 of their > (mountain state) catalog---price is 8.50 the american flintlock pistol > also has a couple of brass barrel guns---but not english but similar > lines---I have a rifled underhammer boot pistol about 38 > cal---original---a bit later in date--- > > "HAWK" > Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) > 854 Glenfield Dr. > Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 > E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: > http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce > > On Tue, 11 Jul 2000 22:49:48 -0400 tom roberts writes: > > Anyone out there have knowledge of late 18th century > > english (or other) naval pistols with bronze barrels? > > > > Tom > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ________________________________________________________________ > YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! > Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! > Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher Date: 12 Jul 2000 21:21:20 -0600 ::You will have to forgive me, but I am really beginning to have some = problems with what you are saying. Ed Ingrim has been a friend of mine ever since I started in this business = by also becoming a member of the Jed Smith club in the middle 80's. Ed = never has been a member of the AMM. If you are wanting to join the AMM just to get recognition, you are = joining for the wrong reason. I would suggest you reconsider. I am not sure you will be able to find two good sponsors who will sponsor = you for wanting to join for the reason you gave. If you are living in Kansas, I will probably know who your sponsors are = since I know all of the AMM members in Kansas. Also since I am the = Brigade Booshway for Kansas. I would like to know where you live and if we have any acquaintances in = common. It could be that we have already met. Don Keas On Thursday, August 31, 1939, S Jones wrote: >Oh yeah, one more item. I wanted an invitation to join >just so I can assess the archives since I'm not a >member. No password for farts like me, huh? > > > >--- John Kramer wrote: >> S Jones , >>=20 >> I know not your name so I can't address this >> properly as you've failed to=20 >> introduce yourself to this list. >>=20 >>=20 >> RE: AMM membership >>=20 >> AMM is not much about requirements. >>=20 >> AMM is not much about buckskinners or buckskinning. >>=20 >> AMM ain't much about drinking. >>=20 >> The worst reason to join AMM is because you consider >> it a credential. >>=20 >> AMM is a brotherhood of men with a common historical >> interest. >>=20 >> In order to know a man as a brother whom you've >> never met means you must=20 >> trust the word of your known brothers that anyone >> they may ask to join is=20 >> of like mind. Sponsorship is the weightiest >> responsibility each member=20 >> holds, that is why it can be difficult to join. It >> is not a perfect=20 >> system: it is the one we abide by. Some take the >> responsibility more=20 >> seriously than do others. >>=20 >> Unless you get to know a member well it ain't likely >> to happen. You may=20 >> already know members (some don't wear their >> affiliation on their sleeve). >>=20 >> I have never sponsored and always spoken against >> those who were begging to=20 >> get in. It is always for the wrong reasons. >>=20 >> AMM is not for everyone. It was not founded to >> provide anyone=20 >> "recognition" for their involvement in buckskinning. >>=20 >> John... #656 >>=20 > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get Yahoo! Mail =96 Free email you can access from anywhere! >http://mail.yahoo.com/ > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher Date: 12 Jul 2000 23:09:31 -0700 well said sir John---couldnt have put it any better myself---many out there few are chosen---and the real ones survive--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher Date: 12 Jul 2000 20:33:03 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2000 6:48 PM > Roger, > > My grandmother Wilson was from the neck of the woods under discussion. She > was very proud of being a Daughter of the American Republic [DAR] and her > Cherokee heritage as well. Walt, And well she might be! Thanks for straightening me out, I always thought it was "Daughers of the American Revolution" (DAR). I stand informed. > > My Aunt Nathalie was named after Nathan Foster who left New York right after > the Revolutionary War for what we now call Missouri. New York being much too far north for where the "Over Mountain Men" were said to have come from. > > They referred to their relations as woods men not mountain men. They may very well have refered to their relations as woods men. History refered to the men from west of the Carolinas from across the Blue Ridge and the Smoky's, etc. as "Over Mountain Men", not woods men though that is surely what they were. Consumate woods men at that, skilled in surviving in an environment much more hostile and deadly than what the RMFT found in his wanderings. Those men had been fighting nature and the native inhabitants all their lives and winning. Even winning against enemies as well armed as they if not more so. When they finally got their hair up, they came riding out of the western mountains with a battle fury reminiscent of their Scottish Highands Fathers and woods skills to out indian the Indian. Not deserving of the name "First Mountain Men"? Hardly. > > I believe this dilutes history not strengthens it. I'm not sure how this dilutes history, rather it seems to enrich our history. To withhold the Honorific "Mountain Man" to only those who worked in the Rocky's for the few years of the American Far West Fur Trade, is to belittle and deny those who came before and who were every bit the opitomy of the "mountain man" even unto their historical name. > > I do not think the writer makes a valid point but you are entitled to your > opinion. I think the writer made a very important point. Of course you are intitled to your opinion as well. > > I think John Colter was the first American mountain man. John Colter was one of the first to stay on in the Rocky's after the Lewis and Clark Expedition but he went back into the mountains with others and until he turned around he was just another member of the expedition and a green horn at that compared to the older hunters in the Party. He did become a man of legend and took his place alongside those who went before like Boone, Kenton, etc. Perhaps he was the first true Rocky Mountain Free Trapper but perhaps he was just the one that had stories told about him. > > One condition for a green horn was to spend a year in the Rocky Mountains. So the experienced hunters in the Lewis and Clark Expedition were Green Horns? Bet you wouldn't call them that to their face and live to tell about it. Of course the new man (inexperienced) coming to the RMFT was not considered an old hand until he had proven himself but that requirement was made up in no different fashion that what is imposted on any newcomer to any vocation even today. I doubt that a newcomer to the Blue Ridge or the Smokeys would have been considered any different until he had proven himself or better yet lived through a year. It is the way of established journeymen the world over. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT (sorta): Thankee Kindly Date: 12 Jul 2000 23:42:43 -0700 well said buck concure with hanson being the man---loved to listen to his stories--- YMHOSANT =+= "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher Date: 12 Jul 2000 23:44:53 -0700 concure "HAWK" #256 ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: OT (sorta): Thankee Kindly Date: 12 Jul 2000 23:30:31 -0700 thanks bubba ---but i guess i'm the end of this family line---last mail child---the name will carry on but thru one of the girls in the family---have 8 sisters---am the only mail and no sons have a half brother but different last name---but same gean pool---same mother different fathers--- appreciate your fine words---hope to be of assistance where i can---on or off line anytime---live with a standard and will die with it--- hope to smoke and greet those brothere some day an the big doins and again give bill hell among with some of the others past---lest we forget--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher Date: 12 Jul 2000 22:29:40 -0700 (PDT) --- Phyllis and Don Keas wrote: > ::You will have to forgive me, but I am really > beginning to have some problems with what you are > saying. > Ed Ingrim has been a friend of mine ever since I > started in this business by also becoming a member > of the Jed Smith club in the middle 80's. Ed never > has been a member of the AMM. > If you are wanting to join the AMM just to get > recognition, you are joining for the wrong reason. > I would suggest you reconsider. > I am not sure you will be able to find two good > sponsors who will sponsor you for wanting to join > for the reason you gave. > If you are living in Kansas, I will probably know > who your sponsors are since I know all of the AMM > members in Kansas. Also since I am the Brigade > Booshway for Kansas. > I would like to know where you live and if we have > any acquaintances in common. It could be that we > have already met. Don Keas > I'm surprised that I've been misled by Sidemeat. That is a serious matter for me. I know no one at all then who's associated with the AMM. I reside in Great Bend currently. I was past secretary for the Kansas Muzzleloading Association under Stan Hamel and then Gary Doornbos. i'm acquainted with a few others from around Russell, Wichita, and other towns. Can't say that your name rings a bell. Just caught the thread about Hanson of Chadron, Nebraska. I remember my first meeting there in 1981. Had a few questions for him and he pulled my leg a couple times before I recognized his humor. I asked what a 'roach spreader' was in a display, I did not know that it was head dress. He had me believing that it was drug paraphernalia and I just couldn't visualize it. Quite a man. Met him again a year later and bought the Sketchbook series. I realize now that Bossloper membership is something that is bestowed, not sought. Forgive my earlier ignorance. I don't want to 'crash your party' since I now have a fuller idea of what the AMM actually is. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher Date: 13 Jul 2000 00:21:48 -0600 Rodger, Of course it does. You can see how much of a difference a word change can make. My grandmother was a Wilson. A Scot name and the Wilson's were from North Carolina. Sure I would. The expedition recorded a temperature of 45 degrees below zero during the winter with the Mandan. Nothing in the east prepared them for that. Without help the expedition might have been very different that first winter on the northern plains. John Colter was the only one released from the expedition to join with Dixon and Handcock to return up the Yellowstone River and winter on the Clark's Fork of the Yellowstone River 1806. You are right they were the first 3 free trappers in the area. While engaged with Manual Lisa begins the Legend of John Colter but he is no longer a free trapper. You can buy into that story if you want to and try to sell it if you want to but I am not buying into it. If you read the first 40 or so pages of James Clyman Journal of a Mountain Man you can see that it was not easy for woods men to adapt to the northern plains and the Rocky Mountains. It took a while to adapt to things. Johnson Gardner or Gardiner came out here in the 1820s and led a successful life lasting more than 40 years on the upper Yellowstone. Walt Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher Date: 13 Jul 2000 02:36:22 -0600 How many on this list have completed the #15 requirement with a bow? Walt Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher Date: 13 Jul 2000 02:36:20 -0600 How many on this list have attended the freeze out camps from the 70s, 80s and 90s held near Park City, Montana? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher Date: 13 Jul 2000 03:20:04 -0700 I wasn't referring to the "list" but to the organization that accepts members. Anyone can share opinions and experiences on this "chat line" that pertains to the Fur Trade. But you expressed an interest in joining this fraternal organization but enjoy being a "lone wolf"(keeping your own company). I'm just trying to point out that those two aspects might be in conflict. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2000 11:15 PM > Larry, > > I don't see this list as being a forum for the historical fur trade and a > school in survival. I do see the education aspects of the Rocky Mountain > Fur Trade 1800-1850, particularly the Rendezvous approach as being the > paramount feature. Of course with this focus, American Mountain Men comes > all the related aspects. Liking the history of the American mountain man > shows like mindedness on this list. If it is important to you now keep > after it. S. Jones. > > > Walt > On the Lewis & Clark Trail > Park City, Montana > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Larry Huber > Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2000 9:44 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher > > Aside from being a forum for the historical fur trade and a school in > survival, the American Mountain Men is a fraternal organization that seeks > its company in like mided individuals. In other words, were supposed to be > social. True lone wolves will find that part difficult. You need to be "on > the ground" with a number of the members over a certain period of time. > Once the boys get to know you, getting two sponsers shouldn't be a > problem...unless it is. > > Larry Huber #1517 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: S Jones > To: > Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2000 3:06 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher > > > > A few years ago, Ed "Sidemeat" Ingram wanted to > > sponsor me for the AMM. Trouble was, I needed another > > sponsor and then the entry standards were also > > toughened. Have no trouble with MOST of the now 15 > > standards listed. I'm a lone wolf who prefers my own > > company in the same way that Thomas Jefferson did > > (remember his quote?) Anyways, I might show up in > > rendezvous finally to see if my company is acceptable > > and will gladly join if invited. Keep the sun on your > > back and your powder dry. > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere! > > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher Date: 13 Jul 2000 04:52:33 -0700 On Thu, 13 July 2000, "Walt Foster" wrote: > > How many on this list have completed the #15 requirement with a bow? > Walt > Park City, Montana > > > ---------------------- Count me as one Walt, several times on deer and elk. Later. Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "One who trades" "Uno quien negocia" "Unquil Commerce" English Spanish French * Phila * St.Louis * Trade West * Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher Date: 13 Jul 2000 07:53:35 -0400 Walt Wrote >" How many on this list have completed the #15 requirement with a bow?" Yo D #1622 Hiv. Ohio ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher Date: 13 Jul 2000 04:59:55 -0700 On Thu, 13 July 2000, "Walt Foster" wrote: > > > How many on this list have attended the freeze out camps from the 70s, 80s and 90s held near Park City, Montana? > > > ---------------------- Remember the 70's camps near Park City, don't remember them being called "freeze out" camps, just cold. Later. Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "One who trades" "Uno quien negocia" "Unquil Commerce" English Spanish French * Phila * St.Louis * Trade West * Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher Date: 13 Jul 2000 05:05:56 -0700 On Wed, 12 July 2000, "Roger Lahti" wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Walt Foster" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 12, 2000 6:48 PM > Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Invitation only gets tougher > > > > Roger, > > > > My grandmother Wilson was from the neck of the woods under discussion. > She was very proud of being a Daughter of the American Republic [DAR] and her Cherokee heritage as well. > > Walt, > > And well she might be! Thanks for straightening me out, I always thought it was "Daughers of the American Revolution" (DAR). I stand informed. > Capt...... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ That's interesting I have several letters and receipts from the "Daughers of the American Revolution" for several grave yards that they control back east in PA and NY states. If you use many of these sites for family members to be buried at you have to pay a fee to the "Daughers of the American Revolution", if that site is listed as one of their sites that they control. Later. Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "One who trades" "Uno quien negocia" "Unquil Commerce" English Spanish French * Phila * St.Louis * Trade West * Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: EmmaPeel2@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fort orleans found Date: 13 Jul 2000 10:54:29 EDT UM...speaking as an archaeologist, the jury is still out on this. They've apparently found only one artifact (at a manned fort?),and I've never known a grave to emit an electromagnetic pulse unless the battery from someone's 18th-century pacemaker was still going and going. And why isn't NPS involved? A qualified archaeologist would have been onsite within a week, had they known? If there IS a historic fort of such significance, including graves -- the Knights may as well kiss their farm goodbye. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Robert Thomson" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fort orleans found Date: 13 Jul 2000 08:59:31 PDT That's not necessarily so. As an NPS employee I can tell you it isn't always easy to get an archaeologist to an existing, well-known site for work. Robert "Thanks to kind Providence, here I am again at good old Fort Union" Charles Larpenteur, 1838 ---- Robert Thomson AMF Co Fort Union ----Original Message Follows---- Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com And why isn't NPS involved? A qualified archaeologist would have been onsite within a week, had they known? ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fort orleans found Date: 13 Jul 2000 17:24:05 -0500 Why should the NPS get involved? There are plenty of historically significant sites that have been discovered, archeologically investigated and researched (paid for with private funds), and are currently being protected by private organizations or individuals. Not to mention State and Local efforts to do the same. There are to many important sites the way it is on Federal land that will never be adequately protected and researched, and I've seen to many times when research that has been done is never made available to the public or correctly published. As far as the Knights having to give up there farm if the site is determined to be historically significant... that would be a sad state of affairs. Particularly since they have already taken steps to preserve the site themselves. What should happen is the federal government or the archeological community provide assistance in cases like this. The people Who work for the NPS, FS, etc. certainly are not perfect as evidenced, for example, by the fires caused by inept government employees in N.M. this year. For them to step in, in situations like this, and take away everyone else's right to participate in the decision making process is wrong in my opinion. Just my humble opinion, Tony Clark -----Original Message----- >UM...speaking as an archaeologist, the jury is still out on this. They've >apparently found only one artifact (at a manned fort?),and I've never known a >grave to emit an electromagnetic pulse unless the battery from someone's >18th-century pacemaker was still going and going. And why isn't NPS >involved? A >qualified archaeologist would have been onsite within a week, had they known? >If there IS a historic fort of such significance, including graves -- the >Knights may as well kiss their farm goodbye. > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fort orleans found Date: 13 Jul 2000 23:54:33 -0700 according to the antiquities act of 1998 i believe---if anything is over 100 years and found on public or privet property ---you do not own it---it belongs to the state and you must first notify then before it is moved to get a ok---unless the treasure hunter magazine i read on ocasions is incorrect--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael W. Finnie" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fort orleans found Date: 13 Jul 2000 21:21:29 -0700 here's a good link for lots of the Archeological and cultural rules and regs http://www.cr.nps.gov/linklaws.htm and of course our benevolent and all-knowing gummint can certainly exercise their power of eminent domain to take (with 'just' compensation, of course) whatever they deem fit - to wit: this verbiage from the Historic Sites Act of 1935 16 U.S.C. sec. 461-467 : (d) For the purpose of sections 461 to 467 of this title, acquire in the name of the United States by gift, purchase, or otherwise any property, personal or real, or any interest or estate therein, title to any real property to be satisfactory to the Secretary... At 11:54 PM 7/13/00 -0700, you wrote: >according to the antiquities act of 1998 i believe---if anything is over >100 years and found on public or privet property ---you do not own >it---it belongs to the state and you must first notify then before it is >moved to get a ok---unless the treasure hunter magazine i read on >ocasions is incorrect--- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fort orleans found Date: 14 Jul 2000 07:32:03 -0500 Hawk, If I happen to find a cache of trade silver while digging in my garden, it is mine to keep free and clear. If an item is found on state land here in WI where I live it belongs to the state, unless it's less than 100 years old in which case it still belongs to the original owner unless is can be shown that the item was abandoned. Thats basically the way it works to my knowledge. Anything that is on private land belongs to the owner. If the government chooses to exercise eminent domain owners must be given appropriate compensation. -----Original Message----- >here's a good link for lots of the Archeological and cultural rules and regs >http://www.cr.nps.gov/linklaws.htm > >and of course our benevolent and all-knowing gummint can certainly exercise >their power of eminent domain to take (with 'just' compensation, of course) >whatever they deem fit - >to wit: this verbiage from the Historic Sites Act of 1935 16 U.S.C. sec. >461-467 : > >(d) For the purpose of sections 461 to 467 of this title, acquire in the >name of the > United States by gift, purchase, or otherwise any >property, personal or real, or > any interest or estate therein, title to any real property >to be satisfactory to the > Secretary... > > > >At 11:54 PM 7/13/00 -0700, you wrote: >>according to the antiquities act of 1998 i believe---if anything is over >>100 years and found on public or privet property ---you do not own >>it---it belongs to the state and you must first notify then before it is >>moved to get a ok---unless the treasure hunter magazine i read on >>ocasions is incorrect--- > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Robert Thomson" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fort orleans found Date: 14 Jul 2000 08:42:07 PDT Very true. A perfect example is the steamboat Arabia. She was found on private property and the museum and artifacts remain in the hands of the people who found her. Robert "Thanks to kind Providence, here I am again at good old Fort Union" Charles Larpenteur, 1838 ---- Robert Thomson AMF Co Fort Union ----Original Message Follows---- Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Hawk, If I happen to find a cache of trade silver while digging in my garden, it is mine to keep free and clear. If an item is found on state land here in WI where I live it belongs to the state, unless it's less than 100 years old in which case it still belongs to the original owner unless is can be shown that the item was abandoned. Thats basically the way it works to my knowledge. Anything that is on private land belongs to the owner. If the government chooses to exercise eminent domain owners must be given appropriate compensation. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fort orleans found Date: 14 Jul 2000 12:17:57 -0700 believe the antiquities act of 1998 changed that a bit---said that you are required to notify the BLM or the state or federal archologilist upon finding anything over 100 years old on state, federal or privet land---then the state and federal will decide if it can be removed or altered---normal cases the agency will say dont worry but if its indian stuff---or very area historical stuff they will shut you down---they are having a problem with that in several states nowdays---seems if the curator of antiquities for the state is on his toes and he gets very active is where a lot of problems lie---they can do what they darn well wish and have a judge agree with them------several building projects have been stopped in Mo because of finding indian arrow points and cannon balls and such. not really as simple as it sounds---if you find a cash of gold or silver coins on privet ground and it is over 100 years the state or federal agency has the authority to conficate it if you remove it from its original placement before they are notified and they dont approve removal in writing---there is not a time span between notification and removal there is where the main problem lies---you find then notify and then remove they can if you do not get written permission to remove they can come and consficate the articles---Yes you have ownership but you dont have authority to alter or remove without written permission--- I have a book here its name is "treasure laws of the united states---compiled by R.W. "doc" Grim---it goes into great depth of all the treasure laws and what you will find is that each one conflicts the other it depends on the one they want to use to define ownership and or possession---best not to notify anyone but be sure you forget where you found something and put away in a safe place---the book goes thru state by state and the federal laws---and if you do a bit of prospecting and such on privet or public lands you need to read very carefully---some state and federal laws conflict in what they say---a big problem--- suggest you go to the library and pick it up and peruse it a bit---and you will see the mass confusion and conflicts of the various state and federal laws---it seems that one is not talking to the other---so its a real problem---dan anderson and i do a bit of prospecting and using detectors when we go west to treck and have gotten pretty familiar with the laws in the states that we go to---and there is a lot of conflicts in the laws in NM-AZ-NV-MO-IL -AR -TX and thats a fact---also the transport of artifacts you need to check out the reference i gave you and also treasure hunter magazine a couple of years back reviewed the new antiquities act of 98 and compaired it to earlier ones---it seems it did not overturn the previous laws just added confusion to them--- the appropiate compensation rule is a funny one it's a open one---can give you a dollar and other good and valuable considerations like thank you and that fits the bill -and can shut down a building project until they wish to release you with no time limit or justification for holdup-----a real problem but ---check out what Doc has to say---see page 189-thru 193 it covers washington state---then compare it to the federal laws in front----- some of the federal laws are: federal historical preservation law dated 1989-90 mining and national parks act of 1976 antiquities act of 1906 archological resources act of 1979 abandoned shipwreck act of 1987 submerged land act of 1889 law of salvage act (DATED ????) custidy of resources act 1960 the mining act of 1889 revision to the above mining act dated 1990 archological discoveries act (DATED ???) historical preservation acts. (state and federal ---many different) transport of historical artifacts act (state and federal) and each state has their own response to the above---???????? Just my humbel opinion of course--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce On Fri, 14 Jul 2000 07:32:03 -0500 "northwoods" writes: > Hawk, If I happen to find a cache of trade silver while digging in my > garden, it is mine to keep free and clear. If an item is found on > state land > here in WI where I live it belongs to the state, unless it's less > than 100 > years old in which case it still belongs to the original owner > unless is can > be shown that the item was abandoned. Thats basically the way it > works to my > knowledge. Anything that is on private land belongs to the owner. If > the > government chooses to exercise eminent domain owners must be given > appropriate compensation. ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fort orleans found Date: 14 Jul 2000 13:39:19 -0700 On Fri, 14 Jul 2000 08:42:07 PDT "Robert Thomson" writes: > Very true. A perfect example is the steamboat Arabia. She was found > on > private property and the museum and artifacts remain in the hands of > the > people who found her. > Robert true in some cases but not always---a lot depends on the year it was found---prior to 1989 the law was a bit different and now since they slipped it on us we have to live with it along with the various state laws that have been created because of the same act---suggest you look at my post about the laws and look at the book on the treasure laws---makes you sit back and rethink the matter---especially the pentelties that they now have--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Saddles and Such Date: 14 Jul 2000 17:07:06 -0700 (PDT) Good Day All. Been digging around a wee bit. Finally got ahold of a copy of "Man Made Mobile" out of the musty archives of the University of Idaho. Pretty amazing that out of 1.5 million books, we only have one on saddles. Couple of things I learned. The english saddle as is in use today has changed almost not at all in 200 years in shape. I wish I could have seen how the stirrups were attached on the early 1800's print, but of course it didna show that part. I did find out the the old hardware was iron, not steel, but that is not much of a surprise. The indian saddle I was planning on making for myself, is a plain's indian Woman's saddle, so I'll scrap that for now, but will work on one later hopefully, since I already have the wood and rawhide for it. On another note, I've been trying to find the origin of "plantation saddles", and run out of info about mid 19th century, although prints as early as the 16th century show similiar style saddles. This saddle is more condusive to life in the bush than the english saddles I own, with brass loops for attachments, and it's own style of saddlebags, which, by the way, are big and roomy. It also has a higher cantle and deeper seat providing for a more stable seat than the traditional english saddle. The question..... since my persona is a NWCo employee, for whom spanish saddles and hope saddles would not have been an likely choice, would the "designed for the field" plantation type saddle be more correct for a 1810 Scot over the standard "general purpose" Stubben (english saddle) that I now use? Hopefully, someone can point the way towards better information than what I have. Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of North Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders www.geocities.com/northscribe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles and Such Date: 14 Jul 2000 17:21:02 -0700 On Fri, 14 July 2000, Lee Newbill wrote: > > Good Day All. > > Been digging around a wee bit. Finally got ahold of a copy of "Man Made > Mobile" out of the musty archives of the University of Idaho. Pretty > amazing that out of 1.5 million books, we only have one on saddles. > LEE, YOU MAY WANT TO CHECK WITH "WESTERN HORSEMAN" MAGAZINE, THE ORIGINAL OWNER/EDITOR - DICK SPENCE HAD DONE SEVERAL VERY GOOD ARTICLES ON SADDLES THROUGH THE AGES. DICK OWNED SEVERAL REV WAR OFFICERS SADDLES AND POSSIBLY AN F&I WAR SADDLE, ALONG WITH OTHERS YOU HAVE MENTIONED TOO. HE HAD SEVERAL OF THEM ON LOAN TO THE PARKS SERVICE FOR EXAMPLES WHEN THEY WHERE OUTFITTING BENT'S FORT BACK AROUND 1973 OR 1974, JUST BEFORE THEIR GRAND OPENING. YOU MAY BE ABLE TO GET A COPY OF SOME OF THE ARTICLES BY CONTACTING THEM IN COLO.SPRING, CO. > > Hopefully, someone can point the way towards better information than what I have. > > Your Most Obedient Servant... > > Lee Newbill of North Idaho Later. Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "One who trades" "Uno quien negocia" "Unquil Commerce" English Spanish French * Phila * St.Louis * Trade West * Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles and Such Date: 14 Jul 2000 18:40:43 -0700 (PDT) On 14 Jul 2000 buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > LEE, YOU MAY WANT TO CHECK WITH "WESTERN HORSEMAN" MAGAZINE, THE > ORIGINAL OWNER/EDITOR - DICK SPENCE HAD DONE SEVERAL VERY GOOD ARTICLES > ON SADDLES THROUGH THE AGES. Hi Buck Appreciate the lead, even though I cut my teeth on their primers, I didn't even think to go looking through their archives. Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of North Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders www.geocities.com/northscribe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles and Such Date: 14 Jul 2000 18:58:45 -0700 (PDT) Hallo Again Has anyone ever read the book "Saddles", by Russell H. Beatie? Is it worth the $60? Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of North Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders www.geocities.com/northscribe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: MtMan-List: Golden brown buckskin Date: 14 Jul 2000 20:43:15 -0600 Hello the list, Putting together our party newsletter tonight, and put this quote in. But I figured that you all may enjoy it as well. It's from Don Berry's book, A Majority of Scoundrels". Good book if you haven't read it. Allen "Meat was the diet; the mountain man wanted nothing else. The finest of all foods was the hump rib of a fat buffalo cow, though some liked tongue nearly as well. Occasional contests are recorded where two mountain men start at either end of a slippery boudin-the buffalo's intestine-and swallowed their way to the middle. Like all meat eaters in history, the mountain men knew you have to have plenty of fat with the lean, and the conditions of their buckskins testified to the fact that they got it. What with blood drippings of one sort and another, and a good substantial coat of grease, the color of the mountain man's buckskins was a far cry from the delicate beige-brown of the moving pictures. They were black. Dirty black, greasy black, shiny black, bloody black, stinky black. Black." ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lynn Kirby Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles and Such Date: 14 Jul 2000 20:40:40 -0700 (PDT) I thought the book was an excellent source of information concerning early saddle development. I think I got my copy for around 45.00 dollars from amozon.com --- Lee Newbill wrote: > Hallo Again > > Has anyone ever read the book "Saddles", by Russell > H. Beatie? Is it > worth the $60? > > Your Most Obedient Servant... > > Lee Newbill of North Idaho > Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders > www.geocities.com/northscribe > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles and Such Date: 14 Jul 2000 21:17:59 -0700 (PDT) "Saddles", by Russell H. Beatie? On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Lynn Kirby wrote: > I thought the book was an excellent source of > information concerning early saddle development. I > think I got my copy for around 45.00 dollars from > amozon.com Amazon wants about $60 for it now, Barnes & Noble $55. Also found a real-live copy of "Man Made Mobile" at Barnes and Noble... also selling for around $60. Think I'll go for the "Saddles" book as I can only get one... and can actually read "Man Made Mobile" at the U of Idaho Library. Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of North Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders www.geocities.com/northscribe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rust on the camp set.... Date: 15 Jul 2000 00:22:06 EDT Most of the suggestions already given are good ones. I have yet to try it, but have been told that the beeswax is fantastic for curing your ironware. I know a guy who sets up a cook kitchen type camp and sometimes winds up feeding the entire vous. He told me that the large iron kettle he does all his cooking in was cured this way 12 yeras ago and has never needed to be recured. As for the outside of the ironware, putting it on a good wood fire should take care if it. Longshot "Longshot's Rendezvous Homepage" http://members.aol.com/lodgepole/longshot.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: MtMan-List: Interesting Site Date: 15 Jul 2000 00:37:39 -0400 Here's a website that may be of interest. It is titled: "Archiving Early America" and contains a search function to historic documents of 18th century America. I know it's just a slight bit early, but enjoyable all the same. http://earlyamerica.com/ Tom ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles and Such Date: 15 Jul 2000 00:37:54 -0500 You won't be disappointed with the book by Beatie. It is the best book on the subject by a long shot. Man Made Mobile is a good reference to have around also. Some interesting stuff in there that is hard to find elsewhere. You may want to check out some used book links to find books cheaper, I looked in Bookfinder.com and found several of Beaties books for around $40. northwoods -----Original Message----- >"Saddles", by Russell H. Beatie? > >On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Lynn Kirby wrote: >> I thought the book was an excellent source of >> information concerning early saddle development. I >> think I got my copy for around 45.00 dollars from >> amozon.com > >Amazon wants about $60 for it now, Barnes & Noble $55. Also found a >real-live copy of "Man Made Mobile" at Barnes and Noble... also selling >for around $60. > >Think I'll go for the "Saddles" book as I can only get one... and can >actually read "Man Made Mobile" at the U of Idaho Library. > >Your Most Obedient Servant... > >Lee Newbill of North Idaho >Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders >www.geocities.com/northscribe > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Golden brown buckskin Date: 15 Jul 2000 00:44:35 -0500 Talk about a diet of meat, two books in the Hafen series which are the journals of Rufus B. Sage give a good description of the benefits of an all meat diet. He claimed it couldn't be beat for health and fitness. It's been a while since I read it. Makes me wonder how those PETA folks figure they can go on and on about how unhealthy meat is for a persons diet. If they had there way we would be living on turnips and tofu. northwoods -----Original Message----- >Hello the list, > >Putting together our party newsletter tonight, and put this quote in. But I >figured that you all may enjoy it as well. It's from Don Berry's book, A >Majority of Scoundrels". Good book if you haven't read it. > >Allen > >"Meat was the diet; the mountain man wanted nothing else. The finest of all >foods was the hump rib of a fat buffalo cow, though some liked tongue nearly >as well. Occasional contests are recorded where two mountain men start at >either end of a slippery boudin-the buffalo's intestine-and swallowed their >way to the middle. Like all meat eaters in history, the mountain men knew >you have to have plenty of fat with the lean, and the conditions of their >buckskins testified to the fact that they got it. What with blood drippings >of one sort and another, and a good substantial coat of grease, the color of >the mountain man's buckskins was a far cry from the delicate beige-brown of >the moving pictures. They were black. Dirty black, greasy black, shiny >black, bloody black, stinky black. Black." > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fort orleans found Date: 15 Jul 2000 00:51:33 -0500 -----Original Message----- >believe the antiquities act of 1998 changed that a bit---said that you >are required to notify the BLM or the state or federal archologilist upon >finding anything over 100 years old on state, federal or privet >land--- I've been checking around Hawk and I can't seem to find any such laws like you are describing. It's hard to keep up on all current laws, but I belong to several archeological organizations which keep up with legislation like you are describing, and I have never heard of it. Here in Wisconsin private lands can be collected and dug as long as you are not digging burials, the restriction applies to burials of all races. Digging or disturbing burials is what is a no-no. Not to mention the fact that it is morally and ethically unjustifiable. northwoods ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lynn Kirby Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles and Such Date: 15 Jul 2000 06:49:37 -0700 (PDT) Lee, I pick up a copy of "Man Made Mobile" from the Boston Bookstore, in Rocky Mount, North Carolina about 4-5 months back for 15.00+4.00 shipping. At that time they still had a few copies left. You may want to check with them. --- Lee Newbill wrote: > "Saddles", by Russell H. Beatie? > > On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Lynn Kirby wrote: > > I thought the book was an excellent source of > > information concerning early saddle development. I > > think I got my copy for around 45.00 dollars from > > amozon.com > > Amazon wants about $60 for it now, Barnes & Noble > $55. Also found a > real-live copy of "Man Made Mobile" at Barnes and > Noble... also selling > for around $60. > > Think I'll go for the "Saddles" book as I can only > get one... and can > actually read "Man Made Mobile" at the U of Idaho > Library. > > Your Most Obedient Servant... > > Lee Newbill of North Idaho > Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders > www.geocities.com/northscribe > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles and Such Date: 15 Jul 2000 11:41:00 -0700 (PDT) On Sat, 15 Jul 2000, northwoods wrote: > You may want to check out some used book links to find books cheaper, I > looked in Bookfinder.com and found several of Beaties books for around $40. Northwoods.... I had forgotton about that site, appreciate it much Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of North Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders www.geocities.com/northscribe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles and Such Date: 15 Jul 2000 11:44:41 -0700 (PDT) On Sat, 15 Jul 2000, Lynn Kirby wrote: > Lee, I pick up a copy of "Man Made Mobile" from the > Boston Bookstore, in Rocky Mount, North Carolina about Lynn Do they have a website? Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of North Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders www.geocities.com/northscribe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fort orleans found Date: 15 Jul 2000 16:30:31 -0700 northwoods you are quite correct for wisconson law---I just opened up the book that i refered you to and scanned it a bit---they refer to section 45.04 of the wisconson administrative code---that is for medal detector usage primarily on lands used administered and such for the state---it even has a form to get a metal detector permit---form # is 9400-239 it also referes to the archaeological resources protection act (ARPA) of 1979 and the antiquities act of 1909---also in the book on page 17 is a reprint of the "national society of metal detectors news and report dated sept 1 1993---and the title of it reads---Federal appeals court rules that the ARPA applies to privet property also ----also in the same book that I was refering you to is a reprint of the laws the AA of 1906 and the ARPA of 1979---the original as written with the 1998 -90 updates and changes---it also contains the abandoned shipwreck act of 1987 some pretty stiff pentelties are also noted---plus consfication of equipment and vehicals noted--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lynn Kirby Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles and Such Date: 15 Jul 2000 14:29:29 -0700 (PDT) I believe they do, however I got ahold of them through Bookfinder.com Its a pretty good website you just list the title of the book you want and it list where you can find copies of it. Also you can compare prices some other copies of Man Made Mobile were selling for as much as 75.00 at the same time I found my copy. --- Lee Newbill wrote: > On Sat, 15 Jul 2000, Lynn Kirby wrote: > > Lee, I pick up a copy of "Man Made Mobile" from > the > > Boston Bookstore, in Rocky Mount, North Carolina > about > > Lynn > > Do they have a website? > > Your Most Obedient Servant... > > Lee Newbill of North Idaho > Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders > www.geocities.com/northscribe > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: MtMan-List: Man Made Mobile Date: 15 Jul 2000 16:05:04 -0700 Lee, et al... If I'm not mistaken, Man Made Mobile (Smithsonian Institution Press) IS in reprint. I'm looking at a receipt for my copy (soft bound), $19.00, from the Book Warehouse, 1505 Capital Blvd., #148, Raleigh, NC 27603. Bought it on 6/16/99. Don't have a phone # or a Web address. I think I had located it through exploration of some various book locator sights. Good luck, John Funk ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: MtMan-List: Quills Date: 15 Jul 2000 19:39:02 -0400 Hello all, My resident quill plucker is hard at work in the kitchen trying to tame the porcupine hide into giving up the quills and she's wondering if there's a better way of accomplishing this task without breaking the quills. Any thoughts? The technique currently being tried is to cut the hide into strips and pull the quills from the exposed edges. Tom ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MIA3WOLVES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Quills Date: 15 Jul 2000 19:46:33 EDT I use needle nose pliers to pluck quills. Grasp them at the base of the quill and yank. I only pluck as many as I am ready to dye and quill with as it is a boring and tedious task. The hide I use is dried. YMOS Maryln Adams Red Hawk Quillwork ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael W. Finnie" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Quills Date: 15 Jul 2000 16:59:12 -0700 I reckon this must be a dead quill-pig. If'n it wuz a live one, the easiest way is just to throw an old blanket over him/her and they'll shcuck their quills right into the fabric. Yr most obedient and oft-quilled servant Mike At 07:46 PM 7/15/00 -0400, you wrote: >I use needle nose pliers to pluck quills. Grasp them at the base of the >quill and yank. I only pluck as many as I am ready to dye and quill with as >it is a boring and tedious task. The hide I use is dried. > >YMOS > >Maryln Adams >Red Hawk Quillwork > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Quills Date: 15 Jul 2000 20:20:16 -0400 Next time I think we'll try the live one! This quill plucking is tough going. We were hoping there might be a soak of some kind which would loosen them. I'm sure curious how they would shuck the quills when live, yet they cling so tenaciously after death. Another mystery. Tom "Michael W. Finnie" wrote: > I reckon this must be a dead quill-pig. If'n it wuz a live one, the easiest > way is just to throw an old blanket over him/her and they'll shcuck their > quills right into the fabric. > > Yr most obedient and oft-quilled servant > > Mike ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hail.eris@gte.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Quills Date: 15 Jul 2000 17:50:33 -0700 > Next time I think we'll try the live one! This quill plucking > is tough going. We were hoping there might be a soak of > some kind which would loosen them. I'm sure curious > how they would shuck the quills when live, yet they cling > so tenaciously after death. Another mystery. They don't shuck them. The quills pull out if stuck into flesh. Maybe they can be pulled by impaling a piece of leather with them, and then pulling on the leather. Once out, you could simply push them all the way through the leather scrap. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Quills Date: 15 Jul 2000 18:07:37 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, July 15, 2000 5:50 PM Once out, you could simply push > them all the way through the leather scrap. Burlap sack works so much easier. I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles and Such Date: 15 Jul 2000 21:09:30 -0500 You might want to bookmark this site: http://lamar.colostate.edu/~bott/usedbook.htm It lists several new and used book links. Look around a little more and you might find even better deals... northwoods -----Original Message----- >On Sat, 15 Jul 2000, northwoods wrote: >> You may want to check out some used book links to find books cheaper, I >> looked in Bookfinder.com and found several of Beaties books for around $40. > >Northwoods.... > >I had forgotton about that site, appreciate it much > >Your Most Obedient Servant... > >Lee Newbill of North Idaho >Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders >www.geocities.com/northscribe > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Quills Date: 15 Jul 2000 23:09:08 -0600 Tom, I always used quills from a dead one. They are found in woods quite often, since predators tend to eat all but the quills. The quills then are easy to gather and being home. You do need to clean and steralize them. A mild solution of bleach and water works well. Quills are one of the list of items I gather when ever I find it in the wild. Other things in the list are: tinder, fat wood, flint, berries, edible mushrooms, cordage, sharpening stones, etc... mike. p.s. I've skinned a porcupine a time or two, so I need to ask, how did you like it? tom roberts wrote: > Hello all, > > My resident quill plucker is hard at work in the kitchen > trying to tame the porcupine hide into giving up the quills > and she's wondering if there's a better way of accomplishing > this task without breaking the quills. Any thoughts? The > technique currently being tried is to cut the hide into strips > and pull the quills from the exposed edges. > > Tom > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Quills Date: 16 Jul 2000 00:25:25 -0400 Mike, We hadn't even considered sterilizing these things but it sure makes sense. Our "gather" lists are similar except there's not too much flint around these parts. Also, there was a fellow at the Nationals who reaffirmed what my thinking is on wild mushrooms. Every one belongs to the classification of "Leverite" meaning: leave 'er right where she grows. I didn't skin this fellow, we got the hide while visiting a taxidermist in Idaho. I'm thinking that skinning one of these critters would best be done using long tools and very heavy gloves. Tom Mike Moore wrote: > Tom, > I always used quills from a dead one. They are found in woods > quite often, since predators tend to eat all but the quills. The quills > then > are easy to gather and being home. You do need to clean and > steralize them. A mild solution of bleach and water works well. > Quills are one of the list of items I gather when ever I find it in > the wild. Other things in the list are: tinder, fat wood, flint, > berries, edible mushrooms, cordage, sharpening stones, etc... > mike. > p.s. I've skinned a porcupine a time or two, so I need to ask, how > did you like it? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Poorboy" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Quills Date: 16 Jul 2000 08:38:19 -0700 Klahowya My Friends, I must concur with the good Capt., burlap is the tool to use. It will grip the quills nicely, and then they are easily pushed through for removal. I have used the burlap method for some years. It allows one to gather the quills from a road kill without fusing the carcass home. Lay the burlap on the ground, roll the carcass onto it, lift the edges of the burlap and roll the carcass back and forth, gather the burlap and take home. Carry a couple of pieces of burlap as all of the quills may not come the first time. YMOS PoorBoy Knowledge of the past is the key to the future....use it and open the door. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles and Such Date: 16 Jul 2000 12:08:36 -0600 Lee Newbill asked: >The question..... since my persona is a NWCo employee, for whom spanish >saddles and hope saddles would not have been an likely choice, would the >"designed for the field" plantation type saddle be more correct for a >1810 Scot over the standard "general purpose" Stubben (english >saddle) that I now use? Are you a wintering partner or a laboring man? If the former, there is one piece of firm documentation for an English saddle. Alexander Henry the Younger noted "...they [Big Bellies] appeared eager also to have the two Saddles and Bridles which belonged to Mr. Chaboillez, and myself as they were of European manufacture and I really believe had a favourable opportunity presented itself, they would have stolen them..." 28 July 1806, Mandan villages (Gough 1:278) As for saddles used by the men, here is the little that I have found about NWCo saddles in my reading; perhaps it will be helpful to you, since you probably know more about saddles than I do. "[Mr. King] says that some weeks ago his Hunters saw the Crapaud (La France's murderer) returning from some of the Forts of Upper Fort des Prairies with 3 stone [Assiniboine] Indians, & that they had fifteen Horses, & all saddled with saddles made by our people. among the Saddles were one with Iron Stirrups..." Ft. Alexandria, 1800 -- A. N. McLeod's journal, North West Co. (Gates, 143) "Men repairing their saddles, etc., to go hunting ; others racing their horses." Ft. Vermilion, Oct. 1, 1809-- Alexander Henry the Younger's journal (Henry & Coues, 2:548) "Assigned to two Men 3 Horses with their Furniture consisting of each Horse 1 Saddle, Saddle stuff [horse blankets?], cords for the Lead, & their Load, weighing abt 130 lbs." Kootenay Plains area, June 25, 1807 -- David Thompson's journal (Belyea, 46) "...having procured a saddle from the good old [Native] Man, we set off." Kullyspell Ho., 1809 -- David Thompson's journal (Belyea, 115) "[Assiniboins, Rapid Indians, Blackfeet and Mandans, together with all the other Indians who inhabit a plain country] do not often use bridles, but guide their horses with halters, made of ropes, which are manufactured from the hair of the buffaloe, which are very strong and durable. On the back of the horse, they put a dressed buffalo skin, on the top of which, they place a pad, from which are suspended stirrups, made of wood, and covered with the skin of the testicles of the buffaloe." 1820 -- Daniel Harmon's reminiscences (Harmon & Lamb, 212-213) Thompson's men make horse collars when building Kullyspell House. 1809. (Belyea, 109) "..the two men returned with four Kootanae Indians and seven Horses ; with their funiture of saddles, lines and saddle cloth of the Bison hides...the next day, having gone five miles we came to the camp of the Kootanes, and traded five Horses with their furniture and twenty dressed leather skins of the Red Deer" May 19, 1811--Thompson's Narrative (Glover & Thompson, 330) Clear as mud?! If you want the full references on any of these quotes, just ask. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: fort orleans found Date: 16 Jul 2000 14:23:53 -0500 Just a thought on dig-up and finders-keepers laws. Louisiana laws are founded on Napoleanic law. The rest of the U.S. is founded on English common law. They do lots of things different in LA. They have private police and private judges for large landowners and they are fully enforceable and legal. So what might apply in Wisconsin could get you fed to the gators in Cajun land. I ain't no eekspurt, just cogitatin' a bit. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles and Such Date: 16 Jul 2000 12:23:11 -0700 >From "Man Made Mobile"... "Many of the Spanish saddles that the American Fur Company obtained in St. Louis in the 1830s seem to have had padding on the undersurfaces of the saddleboards, at least at the time of purchase". (Page 50) John Funk ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fort orleans found Date: 16 Jul 2000 15:55:48 -0500 Hi Frank, Hawk was talking about Federal law that would prevent people from "removing any item they found that was over 100 yrs. old without notifying federal officials". I know that some states have laws that are similar to that, some are more liberal, but no federal law exists that states that to my knowledge. Even the state laws that prevent people from digging on there own property are just waiting for a court battle to overturn them. I like the fact that this country as a whole gives high regard to individuals rights. I have a friend in Indiana that had bought a piece of property to specifically dig a historic site that was located on it, and subsequent to that the state passed a law that prevented him form legally doing it. He said he was going to fight it, fortunately he has the money to do it. There are many people in the archeological community that would love to see a federal policy enacted that would do what Hawk was describing. That would be a sad day for everyone who is interested in learning more about history who is not an archeologist. If you look back in history a great amount of research has been done by "non- professional archeologists" who do it because they enjoy it. I'll bet 90% of all important sites that are known today be it prehistoric or historic have been discovered by amateurs. For instance, I love to look for arrowheads and Indian artifacts in tilled fields when I have the opportunity. If there was such a law as Hawk was describing, it would be illegal to pick up an arrowhead. Even if it was going to be destroyed. Boy, just don't get me going on this subject I always end amazed at the way some people think. I have several friends who are "old time" archeologists, some who have excavated the most important sites that exist in the Midwest, and they feel the same way as I do regarding this issue. A lot of changes have occurred in the last 20-30 yrs., many not for the better. All in the name of "preserving" our heritage, when what is ultimately happening is only a select few get to enjoy and learn. Even worse yet in some instances valuable materials are being destroyed, look at the Kenniwick man out in the northwest. Hope all is well with you, Tony Clark -----Original Message----- > Just a thought on dig-up and finders-keepers laws. Louisiana laws are >founded on Napoleanic law. The rest of the U.S. is founded on English >common law. > They do lots of things different in LA. They have private police and >private judges for large landowners and they are fully enforceable and >legal. > So what might apply in Wisconsin could get you fed to the gators in >Cajun land. > I ain't no eekspurt, just cogitatin' a bit. >Frank G. Fusco >Mountain Home, Arkansas > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones Subject: MtMan-List: Mark Twain on James Fenimore Cooper Date: 16 Jul 2000 16:22:01 -0700 (PDT) Mark Twain HATED 'The Last of the Mohicans' by Cooper. Here's an excerpt from his essay. Twain's Rules of Writing (from Mark Twain's scathing essay on the Literary Offenses of James Fenimore Cooper) 1. A tale shall accomplish something and arrive somewhere. 2. The episodes of a tale shall be necessary parts of the tale, and shall help develop it. 3. The personages in a tale shall be alive, except in the case of corpses, and that always the reader shall be able to tell the corpses from the others. 4. The personages in a tale, both dead and alive, shall exhibit a sufficient excuse for being there. 5. When the personages of a tale deal in conversation, the talk shall sound like human talk, and be talk such as human beings would be likely to talk in the given circumstances, and have a discoverable meaning, also a discoverable purpose, and a show of relevancy, and remain in the neighborhood of the subject in hand, and be interesting to the reader, and help out the tale, and stop when the people cannot think of anything more to say. 6. When the author describes the character of a personage in his tale, the conduct and conversation of that personage shall justify said description. 7. When a personage talks like an illustrated, gilt-edged, tree-calf, hand-tooled, seven-dollar Friendship's Offering in the beginning of a paragraph, he shall not talk like a Negro minstrel at the end of it. 8. Crass stupidities shall not be played upon the reader by either the author or the people in the tale. 9. The personages of a tale shall confine themselves to possibilities and let miracles alone; or, if they venture a miracle, the author must so plausably set it forth as to make it look possible and reasonable. 10. The author shall make the reader feel a deep interest in the personages of his tale and their fate; and that he shall make the reader love the good people in the tale and hate the bad ones. 11. The characters in tale be so clearly defined that the reader can tell beforehand what each will do in a given emergency. An author should 12. _Say_ what he is proposing to say, not merely come near it. 13. Use the right word, not its second cousin. 14. Eschew surplusage. 15. Not omit necessary details. 16. Avoid slovenliness of form. 17. Use good grammar. 18. Employ a simple, straightforward style. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles and Such Date: 16 Jul 2000 21:26:12 -0700 (PDT) Lee, In answer to your questions (although they may have already been answered by other posts) the "Saddles" book is excellent and along with "Man Made Mobile" they are the 2 best books on the topic I have been able to find. Regarding your question about plantation saddles, I believe they were used primarily in the South. Plantations were rather large and spread across large distances. As a result the Saddlebread breed of horse was developed that could cover long distances without getting fatigued (kind of like the way ome riders do endurance riding today.) This saddle was used so as to be more comfortable on these rides. I saw a picture of one recently on E-Bay and it kind of looked like a cross between a McCellan and an Australian saddle. Hope this helps. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 ________________________________________________________________________________ At 05:07 PM 07/14/2000 -0700, you wrote: >Good Day All. > >Been digging around a wee bit. Finally got ahold of a copy of "Man Made >Mobile" out of the musty archives of the University of Idaho. Pretty >amazing that out of 1.5 million books, we only have one on saddles. > >Couple of things I learned. > >The english saddle as is in use today has changed almost not at all in 200 >years in shape. I wish I could have seen how the stirrups were attached >on the early 1800's print, but of course it didna show that part. I did >find out the the old hardware was iron, not steel, but that is not much of >a surprise. > >The indian saddle I was planning on making for myself, is a plain's >indian Woman's saddle, so I'll scrap that for now, but will work on one >later hopefully, since I already have the wood and rawhide for it. > >On another note, I've been trying to find the origin of "plantation >saddles", and run out of info about mid 19th century, although prints as >early as the 16th century show similiar style saddles. This saddle is >more condusive to life in the bush than the english saddles I own, with >brass loops for attachments, and it's own style of saddlebags, which, by >the way, are big and roomy. It also has a higher cantle and deeper seat >providing for a more stable seat than the traditional english saddle. > >The question..... since my persona is a NWCo employee, for whom spanish >saddles and hope saddles would not have been an likely choice, would the >"designed for the field" plantation type saddle be more correct for a >1810 Scot over the standard "general purpose" Stubben (english >saddle) that I now use? > >Hopefully, someone can point the way towards better information than what >I have. > >Your Most Obedient Servant... > >Lee Newbill of North Idaho >Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders >www.geocities.com/northscribe > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: fort orleans found Date: 17 Jul 2000 01:43:49 -0700 northwoods and frank just went back to my treasure hunting book and believe in what i was reading that the individual that bought property only for the reason of excavating artifacts may be on thin ice ---that would be a good court fight and would probably depend on who had the most time and money to spend--- BTW---the archological protection act of 1979 (16 U.S.C. 470aa-470mm)as set forth herein consists of public law 96-96(october 31 1979) with amendments hereto. sugest you also look at the department of the interior technical brief dated june of 1991 in it it states that if a state feels that a site has any historical or archological merit that the state can and should obtain a court order to cease and disist any digging or removal of any historical articles---and it lists a bunch of things that is felt to be historical----its really what ever the state agency wants to do---they have a pretty open ended federal statute and usually promote state statutes that supplement or give additional teeteh into the laws--- believe you need to go to the library and see if they have the paper back book "treasure laws of the united states" complies by R.W. "DOC" Grim---it has a IBSN # 0-9636458-0-3 before your friend starts to dig on that ground I would suggest he go to a lawyer in the area and also write to state and county government asking what is the law in reference to doing as he will do---bet he has a rude awakining--- Just my humbel opinion of course---but things really have changed in this area of thinking since the mid 80's---can be some real big fines and there is no excuse for ignorance in the law---that is what I have been told that is---dan anderson and I were prospecting on federal ground in NM and the blm guys went thru my moter home like a dose of epson salt unloaded everything searched all mineral samples to include pouring them out on a blanket---about 4---to 5 hrs they took and didnt find anything out of place---we even had our metal detector permits or they would have taken our metal detectors---we got the permits from the state---and we were camped on privet land--- this whole subject is like eagle feathers and endangered animal parts---no winners for a individual again---just my humbel opinion of course-- YMHOSANT =+= "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: L&C and ongoing Univ. Projects Date: 17 Jul 2000 14:52:28 -0700 (PDT) Hallo Sorry 'bout the semi-private mail on a public format, but I don't have Larry Pendleton's address... and besides, this might be of interest to those along the L&C trail. Larry... I checked into the L&C project at the Univ of Idaho, am still waiting to hear back from Dr. Kennedy. I got picked off by her secretary when I called to check with her. Mean woman. I'm thinking this project is similiar to the project at Washington State University, where the Educational departments are using the Lewis & Clark experiance as a lead in to teaching natural science, math, etc., with emphasis on how they got there, and what they discovered along the way. Our local BP club, the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders, just finished working with the Ed dept of Washington State U on a similiar project... a "teach the teachers" type of deal. The local newspaper even did up an article on it, which can be found at http://members.xoom.com/HogHeavenML I'll keep you posted when I manage to get through to the good Doctor herself. Incidently, this is grant money they are working with.... and our club scores a couple of hundred American Greenbacks in "honoraiums" per assist, as well as a free meal. Something to think about for those looking to raise money for their party/club. Also, anyone besides me catch Mark Weadick on channel six last night? Apparently, they did a camp over by the old site of Spokane House, and Mark got to do a "Cameo" appearance while talking about living history. Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of North Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders www.geocities.com/northscribe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Man Made Mobile Date: 17 Jul 2000 14:58:21 -0700 (PDT) On Sat, 15 Jul 2000, John C. Funk, Jr. wrote: > If I'm not mistaken, Man Made Mobile (Smithsonian Institution Press) IS in > reprint. John Thanks for the info.... will check 'er out and see if I can find a webaddress for them. Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of North Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders www.geocities.com/northscribe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles and Such Date: 17 Jul 2000 15:17:54 -0700 (PDT) Hallo Again Appreciate all the leads on the two books I'm after, y'all have given me multiple avenues to try.... thanks! Now... to pry the charge card from me wife's wallet! On Wed, 16 Jul 1980, Angela Gottfred wrote: > Are you a wintering partner or a laboring man? Hi Angela Working on the persona of a wintering Clerk of Scottish descent, since they were lettered and relatively abundant from my readings, lot of nephews in the business it seems The saddle is an interesting dilema, in that there were many types floating around, from those made at the posts by the NWCo workers, to those purchased from the local tribes, which, I think, would have included the plain's indian riding saddle, and the woman's saddle. However, being of sound mind and not yet feeble body, I have no interest in trusting my rear-end to the rigors of a "plank" saddle on a week-long ride. To my knowledge, there are no surviving examples of "post made saddles". Jerry Zaslow did write..... > Regarding your question about plantation saddles, I believe they were > used primarily in the South. > This saddle was used so as to be more comfortable on these rides. I saw > a picture of one recently on E-Bay and it kind of looked like a cross > between a McCellan and an Australian saddle. While I was a hoping that the plantation saddles were not just a southern US product, between what I've read, and Jerry's last email, it doesn't appear they were in this area... so it's back to what a middlin clerk could afford/get.... it's really too bad, the upper end plantation saddles looked might comfy. Funny thing, I was really surprised to find out the horns on western style saddles, go back a long, long way. Thought that it was a hope saddle original idea. Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of North Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders www.geocities.com/northscribe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: L&C and ongoing Univ. Projects Date: 17 Jul 2000 19:13:57 -0700 Thanks Lee ! Keep me posted sir. Secretary is a mean woman huh ? Oh well ! hell hath no fury like a . . . . . LP -----Original Message----- Hallo Sorry 'bout the semi-private mail on a public format, but I don't have Larry Pendleton's address... and besides, this might be of interest to those along the L&C trail. Larry... I checked into the L&C project at the Univ of Idaho, am still waiting to hear back from Dr. Kennedy. I got picked off by her secretary when I called to check with her. Mean woman. I'm thinking this project is similiar to the project at Washington State University, where the Educational departments are using the Lewis & Clark experiance as a lead in to teaching natural science, math, etc., with emphasis on how they got there, and what they discovered along the way. Our local BP club, the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders, just finished working with the Ed dept of Washington State U on a similiar project... a "teach the teachers" type of deal. The local newspaper even did up an article on it, which can be found at http://members.xoom.com/HogHeavenML I'll keep you posted when I manage to get through to the good Doctor herself. Incidently, this is grant money they are working with.... and our club scores a couple of hundred American Greenbacks in "honoraiums" per assist, as well as a free meal. Something to think about for those looking to raise money for their party/club. Also, anyone besides me catch Mark Weadick on channel six last night? Apparently, they did a camp over by the old site of Spokane House, and Mark got to do a "Cameo" appearance while talking about living history. Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of North Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders www.geocities.com/northscribe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Saddles and Such Date: 17 Jul 2000 11:30:13 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BFEFE2.5FAD3F20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Lee=20 At Utah State University you can make copies of pages of books quite = cheaply. How they get around copy right laws I do not know but it saved = my ..... doing research. If your university works the same, you could = skim through Man Made Mobile and get copies of only pages that apply to = your interests. Adds up to a couple bucks, your wife wont even miss it. Keep us informed of where your research leads. Many of us are traveling = similar trails YMOS WY ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BFEFE2.5FAD3F20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear Lee

At Utah State University you can make copies of pages of books quite = cheaply.=20 How they get around copy right laws I do not know but it saved my ..... = doing=20 research. If your university works the same, you could skim through Man = Made=20 Mobile and get copies of only pages that apply to your interests. Adds = up to a=20 couple bucks, your wife wont even miss it.

Keep us informed of where your research leads. Many of us are = traveling=20 similar trails

YMOS

WY

 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BFEFE2.5FAD3F20-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles and Such Date: 17 Jul 2000 23:35:06 -0700 (PDT) On Sun, 16 Jul 2000, John C. Funk, Jr. wrote: > "Many of the Spanish saddles that the American Fur Company obtained in > St. Louis in the 1830s seem to have had padding on the undersurfaces of the > saddleboards, at least at the time of purchase". Hallo John Reading the notes of a professional saddlemaker (contemporary), he states that his first Hope saddles didn't have any thing between them and the pad, but he changed over and started putting fleece on the underside. The reason he did this was because without the fleece, the saddles had a tendacy to "wander" on the horse's back. The fleece apparently "locks" the saddle to the pad/blanket Having been the recipiant of at least one "wandering" saddle on a round backed horse, I can understand why it's there Which brings me to a second question that I hadn't even thought of... saddle blankets. How many of y'all throw a Hudson's or a Witney under the saddle? What are you using? For what it's worth.... Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of North Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders www.geocities.com/northscribe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles and Such Date: 18 Jul 2000 06:59:37 -0700 Lee, Whitney's or a Hudson Bay is a good choice for a saddle blanket. The pure wool aspect serves as great protection and comfort for the critter. That's assuming you don't mind sleeping with a little horse sweat at night. I have an old hand tanned sheep hide I've used on occasion and also have a 4x5 section of Buff. hide which works well also. The hide serves as a good ground pad for sleeping at night. The Olde Ones used Buff Hide ("apishamore, epishamore, apishemeau, or opishomo", take your historical pick of spellings). They were among the first to use "pads" of sorts under their saddles. Seems the military (Lt. Col. Kearney) ceased using the "underpadding" in favor of a blanket once they saw how well it served the mountaineers. They, too, found that the "padding" incorporated on the Spanish saddles deteriorated in short order. Kearney also declared that his men "would sit upon a blanket, "properly folded" and secured by a surcingle atop the tree". (Man Made Mobile) John Funk ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles and Such Date: 18 Jul 2000 16:44:23 -0600 Lee, I usually don't use a big wool blanket under a saddle, seen them slip too often with all that folds.I have used a smaller wool blanket (about 3 pts.) before and it didn't do bad. I folded it different, made it set wider than the pad and it worked fine. Sure keeps down the bulk. And saves room in the pack or behind the horse. But have seen alot of other guys try it and decided to pull off the blanket not far down the trail. I guess it is like alot of things, some work for individuals, some don't. I use a nice pad and a thick saddle blanket when riding, just like to protect the horse (but those two pieces are nice to sleep on at night too!). mike. Lee Newbill wrote: > On Sun, 16 Jul 2000, John C. Funk, Jr. wrote: > > "Many of the Spanish saddles that the American Fur Company obtained in > > St. Louis in the 1830s seem to have had padding on the undersurfaces of the > > saddleboards, at least at the time of purchase". > > Hallo John > > Reading the notes of a professional saddlemaker (contemporary), he states > that his first Hope saddles didn't have any thing between them and the > pad, but he changed over and started putting fleece on the underside. The > reason he did this was because without the fleece, the saddles had a > tendacy to "wander" on the horse's back. The fleece apparently > "locks" the saddle to the pad/blanket > > Having been the recipiant of at least one "wandering" saddle on a round > backed horse, I can understand why it's there > > Which brings me to a second question that I hadn't even thought > of... saddle blankets. How many of y'all throw a Hudson's or a Witney > under the saddle? What are you using? > > For what it's worth.... > > Your Most Obedient Servant... > > Lee Newbill of North Idaho > Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders > www.geocities.com/northscribe > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Subject: MtMan-List: moulds Date: 18 Jul 2000 21:22:40 -0500 I'd like to pick up a bag-style mould in .490 calibre for my = Pennsylvania. Which was more prevalent, brass or steel, and from a = purely pragmatic stance, which one holds up better under use? I've = got Rapine's catlog, and I've also heard tell that Dixie makes a good = kentucky-style brass mould. Does anyone have any experiences or = preferences either way? YMOS: Todd ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moulds Date: 18 Jul 2000 23:34:56 -0400 Not sure about prevalent, but seeing as steel is harder than brass, that would be my first choice. I'm using a steel .535 mold which works just fine but mine doesn't have a lot of miles on it yet. One could argue that any metal who's melting temperature is higher than lead would suffice but I'd still go for the stronger one as it will tolerate more abuse. Just a 2 cent opinion, Tom Todd wrote: > I'd like to pick up a bag-style mould in .490 calibre for my Pennsylvania. Which was more prevalent, brass or steel, and from a purely pragmatic stance, which one holds up better under use? I've got Rapine's catlog, and I've also heard tell that Dixie makes a good kentucky-style brass mould. Does anyone have any experiences or preferences either way? > > YMOS: Todd > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles and Such Date: 18 Jul 2000 20:37:07 -0700 (PDT) On Tue, 18 Jul 2000, John C. Funk, Jr. wrote: > Whitney's or a Hudson Bay is a good choice for a saddle blanket. The pure > wool aspect serves as great protection and comfort for the critter. That's > assuming you don't mind sleeping with a little horse sweat at night. John After a lifetime in the saddle, the smell of horse sweat is more like a relaxing incense than a disagreeble oder Not sure what the wife will say though, but she has put up with far worse having been married to this kid for 19 years... and she hasn't shown any signs of bailing. Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of North Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders www.geocities.com/northscribe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles and Such Date: 18 Jul 2000 21:41:48 -0700 (PDT) Lee, I ride a Spanish Gourdhorn Saddle that was built on the description of a saddle that Jed Smith acquired while in California in 1826 or 27. This is the only saddle I use. It has no padding or sheepskin on the undersurfaces and as such, this is how I've set it up to keep it from slipping. I use a Belgian Army blanket directly on my horse's back that is thick, like a Whitney, but much less expensive. Then on top of that I put a small modern round pad (about the size of the saddle) and then on top of that goes a course Mexican blanket to cover the pad. In addition I use an old style breast collar to keep the saddle from slipping back when going up hills. Except for my modern saddle pad, everything else (saddle and tack) is period correct. I've had the saddle about 4 years now and use it every weekend (both Saturdays and Sundays) on trail rides that usually last between 2 to 5 hours through moderate to difficult terrain. After much experimentation I've found this setup to work the best for me and my horse. Even though it's not 100% correct (because of the pad), the pad is completely covered and it really keeps my horse's back from getting sore (which is my main concern); he has never had a back problem or saddle sores in the 5 years I've been riding him. I think whatever works to keep the horse healthy and comfortable is more important than being 100% correct. That's how I do it and had much success. Just my opinion. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 ________________________________________________________________________________ At 11:35 PM 07/17/2000 -0700, you wrote: >On Sun, 16 Jul 2000, John C. Funk, Jr. wrote: >> "Many of the Spanish saddles that the American Fur Company obtained in >> St. Louis in the 1830s seem to have had padding on the undersurfaces of the >> saddleboards, at least at the time of purchase". > >Hallo John > >Reading the notes of a professional saddlemaker (contemporary), he states >that his first Hope saddles didn't have any thing between them and the >pad, but he changed over and started putting fleece on the underside. The >reason he did this was because without the fleece, the saddles had a >tendacy to "wander" on the horse's back. The fleece apparently >"locks" the saddle to the pad/blanket > >Having been the recipiant of at least one "wandering" saddle on a round >backed horse, I can understand why it's there > >Which brings me to a second question that I hadn't even thought >of... saddle blankets. How many of y'all throw a Hudson's or a Witney >under the saddle? What are you using? > >For what it's worth.... > >Your Most Obedient Servant... > >Lee Newbill of North Idaho >Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders >www.geocities.com/northscribe > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Darrel William Grubbs Subject: MtMan-List: Horses and such Date: 18 Jul 2000 21:59:06 -0700 (PDT) I have no problem putting a good blanket on or under a saddle... I use some cheaper wool pblankets and then sleep on top of them if i have the luxury of carrying a personal blamket just for me. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moulds Date: 18 Jul 2000 22:10:18 -0700 Todd, I have an original mold that looks much like what Rapine sells. I don't recall seeing any originals in brass, thought there could be examples around. I suspect that most were made of iron in the same way that they are still made today in Colonial Williamsburg. For accuracy, authenticity and longevity go with iron. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles and Such Date: 19 Jul 2000 08:29:26 -0700 Jerry, Have you tried any other "period" methods on your horse for replacing the pad? In five years of use, the pad obviously works but does anything else? Or is the only thing you've tried? Just curious. Larry ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2000 9:41 PM > Lee, > > I ride a Spanish Gourdhorn Saddle that was built on the description of a > saddle that Jed Smith acquired while in California in 1826 or 27. This is > the only saddle I use. It has no padding or sheepskin on the undersurfaces > and as such, this is how I've set it up to keep it from slipping. I use a > Belgian Army blanket directly on my horse's back that is thick, like a > Whitney, but much less expensive. Then on top of that I put a small modern > round pad (about the size of the saddle) and then on top of that goes a > course Mexican blanket to cover the pad. In addition I use an old style > breast collar to keep the saddle from slipping back when going up hills. > Except for my modern saddle pad, everything else (saddle and tack) is period > correct. > > I've had the saddle about 4 years now and use it every weekend (both > Saturdays and Sundays) on trail rides that usually last between 2 to 5 hours > through moderate to difficult terrain. After much experimentation I've > found this setup to work the best for me and my horse. Even though it's not > 100% correct (because of the pad), the pad is completely covered and it > really keeps my horse's back from getting sore (which is my main concern); > he has never had a back problem or saddle sores in the 5 years I've been > riding him. I think whatever works to keep the horse healthy and > comfortable is more important than being 100% correct. > > That's how I do it and had much success. Just my opinion. > > Best Regards, > > Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 > ____________________________________________________________________________ ____ > > At 11:35 PM 07/17/2000 -0700, you wrote: > >On Sun, 16 Jul 2000, John C. Funk, Jr. wrote: > >> "Many of the Spanish saddles that the American Fur Company obtained in > >> St. Louis in the 1830s seem to have had padding on the undersurfaces of the > >> saddleboards, at least at the time of purchase". > > > >Hallo John > > > >Reading the notes of a professional saddlemaker (contemporary), he states > >that his first Hope saddles didn't have any thing between them and the > >pad, but he changed over and started putting fleece on the underside. The > >reason he did this was because without the fleece, the saddles had a > >tendacy to "wander" on the horse's back. The fleece apparently > >"locks" the saddle to the pad/blanket > > > >Having been the recipiant of at least one "wandering" saddle on a round > >backed horse, I can understand why it's there > > > >Which brings me to a second question that I hadn't even thought > >of... saddle blankets. How many of y'all throw a Hudson's or a Witney > >under the saddle? What are you using? > > > >For what it's worth.... > > > >Your Most Obedient Servant... > > > >Lee Newbill of North Idaho > >Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders > >www.geocities.com/northscribe > > > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horses and such Date: 19 Jul 2000 08:35:37 -0600 It is good to see a discussion of horses and their equipment. They were very important in the west through all time peroids. mike. Darrel William Grubbs wrote: > I have no problem putting a good blanket on or under a saddle... I use > some cheaper wool pblankets and then sleep on top of them if i have the > luxury of carrying a personal blamket just for me. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get Yahoo! Mail =96 Free email you can access from anywhere! > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank V. Rago" Subject: MtMan-List: The Patriot Date: 19 Jul 2000 14:31:59 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BFF18E.190E97A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is a movie that is on my must see list but while at the theatre = this afternoon I stopped and was looking at a poster of Mel charging = forward with the flag. Now I am one of those guys that enjoys picking = things apart ie. equipment, clothing and such. Well something did not = look right with his feet. I know this sounds weird but upon closer = inspection Mel is wearing black soled sneakers with what looks like a = leather covering over them. Like the old pair of galoshis we use to = wear in the rain. His left foot looks as though it broke through the = bottom of the fake leather boot, also look at his other boot, you can = tell that it is not a real boot. Right next to this poster was another pic of Mel standing there with the = same style boots one, you can obviously tell they are not the same pair = but with leather soles. Just wondering if Mel can't run to well in = boots. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BFF18E.190E97A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is a movie that is on my must see = list but=20 while at the theatre this afternoon I stopped and was looking at a = poster of Mel=20 charging forward with the flag.  Now I am one of those guys that = enjoys=20 picking things apart ie. equipment, clothing and such.  Well = something did=20 not look right with his feet.  I know this sounds weird but upon = closer=20 inspection Mel is wearing black soled sneakers with what looks like a = leather=20 covering over them.  Like the old pair of galoshis we use to wear = in the=20 rain.  His left foot looks as though it broke through the bottom of = the=20 fake leather boot, also look at his other boot, you can tell that it is = not a=20 real boot.
 
Right next to this poster was another = pic of Mel=20 standing there with the same style boots one, you can obviously tell = they are=20 not the same pair but with leather soles.  Just wondering if Mel = can't run=20 to well in boots.
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BFF18E.190E97A0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moulds Date: 19 Jul 2000 17:03:36 EDT In a message dated 7/18/00 7:23:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time, farseer@swbell.net writes: << I've got Rapine's catlog, and I've also heard tell that Dixie makes a good kentucky-style brass mould. >> Have tried both. Go with Rapine. Dixie's quality control on size sucks! The .440 I got from them throws .430 ball & has a dimple in the bottom. The .490 from Dixie runs pretty close to proper size, but still has that dimple. The .600 Rapine throws proper size & it's round like it's supposed to be. Others I know who have Rapines & check their ball for proper size are happy with Rapine's work. NM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Subject: RE: MtMan-List: moulds Date: 19 Jul 2000 19:42:56 -0500 'Nuff said, Rapine it is. As always, I greatly appreciate the wisdom = and advice. Todd > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of = NaugaMok@aol.com > Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2000 4:04 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moulds >=20 >=20 > In a message dated 7/18/00 7:23:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time,=20 > farseer@swbell.net writes: >=20 > << I've got Rapine's catlog, and I've also heard tell that Dixie = makes a=20 > good kentucky-style brass mould. >> >=20 > Have tried both. Go with Rapine. Dixie's quality control on=20 > size sucks! =20 > The .440 I got from them throws .430 ball & has a dimple in the=20 > bottom. The=20 > .490 from Dixie runs pretty close to proper size, but still has=20 > that dimple. =20 > The .600 Rapine throws proper size & it's round like it's=20 > supposed to be. =20 > Others I know who have Rapines & check their ball for proper size=20 > are happy=20 > with Rapine's work. >=20 > NM >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >=20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moulds Date: 19 Jul 2000 18:27:15 -0700 (PDT) > In a message dated 7/18/00 7:23:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > farseer@swbell.net writes: > << I've got Rapine's catlog, and I've also heard tell that Dixie makes a > good kentucky-style brass mould. >> I own a Dixie mold... and the only thing I use if for is demonstrations. It casts a pre-wrinkled ball and the two sides are ill-fitting. My .02 worth. Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of North Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders www.geocities.com/northscribe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moulds Date: 19 Jul 2000 22:01:31 EDT Ditto what NM says... brass Dixie mould i HAD in .530 left rings in two places from some piss-poor machining. When I asked them about it they told me that all their molds have some irregularities, so I returned it and got a Rapine, which casts virtually perfect balls. Obviously much better quality control. As far as brass vs. steel, don't see a distinct advantage other than the brass is lighter. Either one will outlast any of us. Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles and Such Date: 19 Jul 2000 23:09:23 -0600 Howdy Folks, I use a army surplus blanket folded in half. Inside that I have a 3 1/2 point Whitney. I'm careful to make sure that there are no wrinkles or folds. The Bob Schmitt Ashley contract saddle goes on that. There's no fleece or anything else on the saddle. This set up has worked good on multiple day rides, carrying all gear over Rocky Mountain terrain. Others in my party use the same basic setup. Advantages are; it's period, it works, my horse had never sored up with it, your bedroll behind the saddle is reduced in size, and you sleep in horse sweaty blankets which is generally better than I smell after 5 days in the saddle! We're going out on another 5 day ride here in a couple of weeks and I'll report back if anyone uses anything dramatically different or better on the ride (or worse for that matter). From Fort Hall country, Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles and Such Date: 20 Jul 2000 14:45:42 -0700 (PDT) Jerry, and others.... On Tue, 18 Jul 2000, Jerry & Barbara Zaslow wrote: > I ride a Spanish Gourdhorn Saddle that was built on the description of a > saddle that Jed Smith acquired while in California in 1826 or 27. If you have a picture you can scan and send it to me, I would like to see some of the historical and reproduction saddles in use by the folks on this list. I would post these on my website to share if anyone else is interested.... Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of North Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders www.geocities.com/northscribe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles and Such Date: 20 Jul 2000 15:11:15 -0700 (PDT) On Wed, 19 Jul 2000, Mike Moore wrote: > How do you like to rig your > horse? Hallo again Mike That's what I'm in the process of working out. I spend a lot of time in the mountains either going straight up or down. I am currently using either a Stueben english saddle with thick wool felt pad (not period), or a western saddle with swelled fork and a modern wool pad. I am going to have to put breast collars on everything to keep the saddle from slipping back on the upward lunges, but don't think a crupper is neccesary at this time as I've never had a saddle slip forward.... yet. I am looking at replacing the felt pad with a folded blanket in the 3.5 point size, and getting a piece of buff hide to sit on. I want the blanke to go back far enough, and hang down low enough to keep bedrolls and saddlebags from chaffing the hores's side. Three pack rigs, two deckers, one sawbuck. Am trying to trade the older decker off for a reasonably good sawbuck so I will have two pack rigs that will fit into the period of 1800. One of the things I'm working on right now, is the saddle bags. I've seen some pictures of english style saddles from the early 1800's, and the pictures show that portion of the leather connecting the saddlebags with a horizontal split, so that the bags will be held in place by the rise of the cantle, and the wieght of the rider. With an english rigging, I'm a little stumped as where to put the bedroll since I wanted it behind me in it's traditional place, but don't want the whole kit-and-caboodle coming apart in a blow-up... nothing like a set of saddlebags and bedroll wrapped around a freaked out horse's neck to really get things going.... more research I reckon. I have four horses, ages 25, 15(?), 5 and 6 monthes, all appaloosas, with the 25 year old gelding and the 5 year old mare being designated the main pack animals. The stud colt just kinda wanders around in the back getting into trouble at the moment. Absolutely agree that the health of the horse come before being absolutely period correct. As the cost of a good horse is running about the cost of two decent rifles, I can't afford to be soring them up or eating them for dinner Yesterday, while on a training ride on the mare (just broke to saddle this week), we dang near wound up at the bottom of cliff when she decided that straight was no longer where she wanted to go... so maybe I'll add an ejection seat to the line up Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of North Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders www.geocities.com/northscribe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: MtMan-List: Chris Gardner Date: 20 Jul 2000 22:37:23 -0400 Not sure how many of you knew Chris Gardner from the 'Vous and reenactments, but it is my sad duty to tell you that he crossed the river Tuesday night. He had been fighting leoukemia for quiite awhile and finally it won. Keep his wife Carol in your prayers, and speak a few words for Chris. *raises his galss* Chris, my friend, this one is for you... Keep the fire going and the coffee hot for us when we get there... Ad Miller Alderson, WV ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles and Such Date: 20 Jul 2000 22:23:46 -0700 (PDT) Hi Larry, I've tried a few different combinations and this seems to work the best. At first I tried a blanket and that slipped and seemed to make a tender spot on Sonny's (my horse) back. Next I tired a couple of blankets and his back was better, but the saddle still slipped back when I went up hills. Next I tried a pad only and it worked OK but still slipped a little. Finally, I tried a combination of a pad underneath, blanket on top and a breast collar. This worked fine. Later someone suggested that I put the blanket on his back and the pad on top. I tried that but with another thin blanket on top of the pad to cover it and that worked even better because the blanket on the bottom seems to form to his back. Probably the only difference I would do if going on an overnight trip would be to eliminate the pad and thin blanket and go with the thick blanket on his back and one of my Whitney blankets on top of that and then the saddle. I think the 2 thick blankets would be enough padding and also quite adiquate for me to sleep in. Only reason I don't use the Whitney now is I see no reason to put a lot of wear on it unless I have to (like to keep me warm.) Also, hope you had a good time at the National and come out to the ranch and take a ride with me or maybe up at the Mission? Talk to you soon. Best Regards, Jerry ________________________________________________________________________________ At 08:29 AM 07/19/2000 -0700, you wrote: >Jerry, > Have you tried any other "period" methods on your horse for replacing >the pad? In five years of use, the pad obviously works but does anything >else? Or is the only thing you've tried? Just curious. > >Larry > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow >To: >Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2000 9:41 PM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles and Such > > >> Lee, >> >> I ride a Spanish Gourdhorn Saddle that was built on the description of a >> saddle that Jed Smith acquired while in California in 1826 or 27. This is >> the only saddle I use. It has no padding or sheepskin on the >undersurfaces >> and as such, this is how I've set it up to keep it from slipping. I use a >> Belgian Army blanket directly on my horse's back that is thick, like a >> Whitney, but much less expensive. Then on top of that I put a small >modern >> round pad (about the size of the saddle) and then on top of that goes a >> course Mexican blanket to cover the pad. In addition I use an old style >> breast collar to keep the saddle from slipping back when going up hills. >> Except for my modern saddle pad, everything else (saddle and tack) is >period >> correct. >> >> I've had the saddle about 4 years now and use it every weekend (both >> Saturdays and Sundays) on trail rides that usually last between 2 to 5 >hours >> through moderate to difficult terrain. After much experimentation I've >> found this setup to work the best for me and my horse. Even though it's >not >> 100% correct (because of the pad), the pad is completely covered and it >> really keeps my horse's back from getting sore (which is my main concern); >> he has never had a back problem or saddle sores in the 5 years I've been >> riding him. I think whatever works to keep the horse healthy and >> comfortable is more important than being 100% correct. >> >> That's how I do it and had much success. Just my opinion. >> >> Best Regards, >> >> Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 >> >____________________________________________________________________________ >____ >> >> At 11:35 PM 07/17/2000 -0700, you wrote: >> >On Sun, 16 Jul 2000, John C. Funk, Jr. wrote: >> >> "Many of the Spanish saddles that the American Fur Company obtained >in >> >> St. Louis in the 1830s seem to have had padding on the undersurfaces of >the >> >> saddleboards, at least at the time of purchase". >> > >> >Hallo John >> > >> >Reading the notes of a professional saddlemaker (contemporary), he states >> >that his first Hope saddles didn't have any thing between them and the >> >pad, but he changed over and started putting fleece on the underside. >The >> >reason he did this was because without the fleece, the saddles had a >> >tendacy to "wander" on the horse's back. The fleece apparently >> >"locks" the saddle to the pad/blanket >> > >> >Having been the recipiant of at least one "wandering" saddle on a round >> >backed horse, I can understand why it's there >> > >> >Which brings me to a second question that I hadn't even thought >> >of... saddle blankets. How many of y'all throw a Hudson's or a Witney >> >under the saddle? What are you using? >> > >> >For what it's worth.... >> > >> >Your Most Obedient Servant... >> > >> >Lee Newbill of North Idaho >> >Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders >> >www.geocities.com/northscribe >> > >> > >> > >> >---------------------- >> >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > >> >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles and Such Date: 20 Jul 2000 22:34:38 -0700 (PDT) Lee, I don't have a scanner but know someone who does. I'm not sure I have a photograph but I do have some drawings I made of my saddle and a couple of others I would be happy to e-mail to you as soon as I get the chance. This would also be a good opportunity to get some low cost publicity for selling some of my art work. Ha!!! Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 ________________________________________________________________________________ At 02:45 PM 07/20/2000 -0700, you wrote: >Jerry, and others.... > >On Tue, 18 Jul 2000, Jerry & Barbara Zaslow wrote: >> I ride a Spanish Gourdhorn Saddle that was built on the description of a >> saddle that Jed Smith acquired while in California in 1826 or 27. > >If you have a picture you can scan and send it to me, I would like to see >some of the historical and reproduction saddles in use by the folks on >this list. I would post these on my website to share if anyone else is >interested.... > >Your Most Obedient Servant... > >Lee Newbill of North Idaho >Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders >www.geocities.com/northscribe > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles and Such Date: 20 Jul 2000 23:14:19 -0700 (PDT) Hello again Lee, Just thought I'd mention if you're going to use breast collars (which I understand are not exactly period correct but do keep the saddle from slipping) you might think of using what is called an old style breast collar. I got this book on tack called, "Western Tack Tips" by Tom Hall. It is copyright 1987 and kind of like the Mountain Men Sketchbooks except with tack. On page 43 it has a picture of the "Old Style Breast Collar" that I use. I've been told they didn't use a breast collar but I'd rather use it than wind up sitting in the saddle on my horse's butt. Sounds like you are starting a mini heard also. We have 3 horses. Two 19 year old gelding quarterhorses and a 5 year old mustang mare. All three are excellent trail horses but we've been through a couple of interesting experiences with the mare. We got her about 8 months ago and she was supposed to be completely saddle broke. We rode her when we bought her but of course, found out her quirks after we got her home. It took about 2 months of consistent work to get her to stop spinning when we put on the saddle and tried to get up on her. At first it took about 1/2 an hour of constant round and round until she got tired of turning her butt. Today she doesn't even move. Another fun exercise was getting her to get in and out of the trailer. Carrots and O & M do work wonders and today she gets in in less than a minute. Still love those horses and wouldn't trade any of them for anything. Talk to you later. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 ________________________________________________________________________________ At 03:11 PM 07/20/2000 -0700, you wrote: >On Wed, 19 Jul 2000, Mike Moore wrote: >> How do you like to rig your >> horse? > >Hallo again Mike > >That's what I'm in the process of working out. I spend a lot of time in >the mountains either going straight up or down. I am currently using >either a Stueben english saddle with thick wool felt pad (not period), or >a western saddle with swelled fork and a modern wool pad. I am going to >have to put breast collars on everything to keep the saddle from slipping >back on the upward lunges, but don't think a crupper is neccesary at this >time as I've never had a saddle slip forward.... yet. > >I am looking at replacing the felt pad with a folded blanket in the 3.5 >point size, and getting a piece of buff hide to sit on. I want the blanke >to go back far enough, and hang down low enough to keep bedrolls and >saddlebags from chaffing the hores's side. > >Three pack rigs, two deckers, one sawbuck. Am trying to trade the >older decker off for a reasonably good sawbuck so I will have two pack >rigs that will fit into the period of 1800. > >One of the things I'm working on right now, is the saddle bags. >I've seen some pictures of english style saddles from the early >1800's, and the pictures show that portion of the leather >connecting the saddlebags with a horizontal split, so that the bags will >be held in place by the rise of the cantle, and the wieght of the >rider. With an english rigging, I'm a little stumped as where to put the >bedroll since I wanted it behind me in it's traditional place, >but don't want the whole kit-and-caboodle coming apart in a >blow-up... nothing like a set of saddlebags and bedroll wrapped >around a freaked out horse's neck to really get things going.... more >research I reckon. > >I have four horses, ages 25, 15(?), 5 and 6 monthes, all appaloosas, with >the 25 year old gelding and the 5 year old mare being designated the main >pack animals. The stud colt just kinda wanders around in the back getting >into trouble at the moment. Absolutely agree that the health of the horse >come before being absolutely period correct. As the cost of a good horse >is running about the cost of two decent rifles, I can't afford to be >soring them up or eating them for dinner > >Yesterday, while on a training ride on the mare (just broke to saddle this >week), we dang near wound up at the bottom of cliff when she decided that >straight was no longer where she wanted to go... so maybe I'll add an >ejection seat to the line up > >Your Most Obedient Servant... > >Lee Newbill of North Idaho >Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders >www.geocities.com/northscribe > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles and Such Date: 21 Jul 2000 02:09:33 -0700 (PDT) Hallo Again Got some nice pics from Lynn Kirby of a 1770 (or so) southwest saddle, it's up for all to see at www.geocities.com/northscribe Under the history section. Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of North Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders www.geocities.com/northscribe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: MtMan-List: Invitation Date: 21 Jul 2000 07:06:02 -0600 Gentelmen and Ladies, Please excuse this none period subject, but for some reason I can not get the list to except my e-mail post. A couple of weeks ago I got a wild idea to hold an "Old Timers Camp", since then I have contacted a lot of old inactive and active members and invited them to attend. Since then "all" the Brothers I have contacted have agreed to come, now some of these guy's haven't been seen on the ground for up too 20 years(Scary) but this camp is going to be fun. Now for the reason for this post, "You are all invited to come, I don't care if your a teen or a geezer. Because I can't call everyone, if you are lerking on this list please contact me if you would like to come at= olebjensen@earthlink.net YMOS Ole # 718 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bob Schmidt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles and Such Date: 21 Jul 2000 09:15:10 +0100 Perhaps this will be of help: To keep your saddle blanket from sliding out from under the saddle: Take a 30" x 66" wool saddle blanket......open it completely. Roll up a gunnysack and lay it across the center of the blanket, fold the blanket over, edges together. Place fold in FRONT of saddle ....then cinch up your horse. The gunnysack may also be used as hobbles when the saddle is not in use. Hope it works for you, it does for me. Bob Schmidt bobschmidt@cybernet1.com ---------- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Invitation Date: 21 Jul 2000 08:47:27 -0700 Hi Ole, When and Where? hardtack #1424 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles and Such Date: 21 Jul 2000 10:36:24 -0700 Robert, Good to hear from you. Any comments on the "breast collar" topic? And, "cruppers" too, while your at it?? John Funk ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: MtMan-List: Chouteau Days Salina Oklahoma Date: 21 Jul 2000 11:21:29 -0700 (PDT) Hello the list!!! The city of Salina, Oklahoma; Northeastern Oklahoma,(location of Chouteau Museum)is sponsoring their annual celebration of the birthday of Jean Pierre Chouteau. Who established the first White settelment in 1796, in this area. The Oklahoma Historical Society has helped with this in the past, but the lady at the museum wanted to have an "open" camp. The OHS is not coming!! We are wondering if there is anyone near, AR., KA., MO., Ok that cancome and help add to the camp site??? She said anyone that can depict the period of late 17's to mid 18's ;traders, trappers, Indian camps et.al. They have about 3 acres of museum and city park ground to set up on. Bring your trade goods !!! The Dates Are, October 5th setup day, Oct. 6th. school day, and open to public on Oct, 7th. Chouteau's Birthday is Oct.10 this is the weekend befor. They had fire wood, and city water available last year. ALL Help and Hands!!!! Anyone that is interested, PLEASE contact me off list !!! gnoe39@yahoo.com ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: Fwd: Re: MtMan-List: Chouteau Days Salina Oklahoma Date: 21 Jul 2000 13:32:10 -0700 (PDT) This is the lady that is in charge at the museum. C.N. Montgomery > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Chouteau Days Salina > Oklahoma > Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 15:16:25 -0700 > > Oh, Yeah you can put my telephone number > 918-434-2224 or email > ssc@sstelco.om ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail – Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles and Such Date: 21 Jul 2000 14:09:54 -0700 (PDT) On Fri, 21 Jul 2000, Bob Schmidt wrote: > The gunnysack may also be used as hobbles when the saddle is > not in use. Hallo Bob For the sake of all those scratching their head, and trying to figger out how yer gonna stuff that cayuse into a gunny sack, exactly how are you using the sack.... twisted, tied and figured eighted? Do you sideline 'em too, or just kick 'em loose with the hobbles? Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of North Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders www.geocities.com/northscribe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Huntershorn1@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moulds Date: 21 Jul 2000 19:06:42 EDT How do I get off this mailing list? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles and Such Date: 21 Jul 2000 17:21:56 -0600 Hey bob, do you ever have any old boot tops I can buy, trade or barter, I want to make some Indian style bags from them? sincerely Joe Brandl Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles and Such Date: 21 Jul 2000 16:46:22 -0700 OK, Pappy... Boy, yer on the hot seat now !!! Let's see.....the questions were... 1. Breast collars and their relevance to the Fur Trade. 2. Cruppers " " " " " " " " . 3. Making "hobbles" out of (potato), (gunny) hemp sacks. I can see the expression on your face now. ("Man, how did I get into this?") John Funk P.S. Still love the saddle and the pack gear!!! You do GOOD work, my Friend. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moulds Date: 21 Jul 2000 18:52:46 -0500 Huntershorn wrote: How do=20 I get off this mailing list? Click on this and follow instructions: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: moulds Date: 21 Jul 2000 20:00:37 EDT Huntershorn1@aol.com writes: > How do I get off this mailing list? > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Uh....why don't you try reading. The answer seems to be right in front of you with every message you receive. It appears herding cats is a universal trait. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (JON MARINETTI) Subject: MtMan-List: Chris Gardner Date: 21 Jul 2000 20:14:21 -0400 (EDT) May you rest under the shade of the trees in Eternal Blue Sky Land and may The Eternal Son (of Jehovah The Great Spirit Father - The Most High God) trek with you into this shining new territory to explore and enjoy forever. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Horses and such Date: 21 Jul 2000 08:02:29 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BFF2EA.044282C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lee wrote: That's what I'm in the process of working out. I spend a lot of time in = the mountains either going straight up or down..... but don't think a = crupper is neccesary at this time as I've never had a saddle slip = forward.... yet I have found that a saddle can slip back a long way without bothering = the horse much- jus makes more work for him. But if it goes a few inches = ahead on a downhill trail, it is on his withers and he is in pain. He = will either shorten his stride and really stick his back feet under or = try to jog out from under the saddle. A little farther forward and you = can be spitting rocks out of yer mouth cause falling down hill you can = really get up some momentum. I have used cruppers off and on mostly = depending on the saddle. My experience might be different since I am a = sorry excuse, and because I have not bothered to tighten the cinch much. = Also I see a lot of cruppers in Miller paintings, but I do not see = breast collars on riding stock. Can someone enlighten me with = documentation?=20 On another note, Jerry Zaslow referred to a description of the saddle = that Jed procured in California. Can someone let me know where to find = that source. Thank You WY=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BFF2EA.044282C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Lee wrote:

That's what I'm in the process of working out. I spend a lot of time = in the=20 mountains either going straight up or down..... but don't think a = crupper is=20 neccesary at this time as I've never had a saddle slip forward.... = yet

I have found that a saddle can slip back a long way without bothering = the=20 horse much– jus makes more work for him. But if it goes a few = inches ahead on a=20 downhill trail, it is on his withers and he is in pain. He will either = shorten=20 his stride and really stick his back feet under or try to jog out from = under the=20 saddle. A little farther forward and you can be spitting rocks out of = yer mouth=20 cause falling down hill you can really get up some momentum. I have used = cruppers off and on mostly depending on the saddle. My experience might = be=20 different since I am a sorry excuse, and because I have not bothered to = tighten=20 the cinch much.

Also I see a lot of cruppers in Miller paintings, but I do not see = breast=20 collars on riding stock. Can someone enlighten me with documentation? =

On another note, Jerry Zaslow referred to a description of the saddle = that=20 Jed procured in California. Can someone let me know where to find that=20 source.

Thank You

WY

------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BFF2EA.044282C0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horses and such Date: 22 Jul 2000 08:11:02 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0067_01BFF3B4.60936B00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In Miller's painting of 1837, "Indian Warrior and His Squaw", he depicts = the apparent use of breast bands, as well as cruppers, by native = Americans. Thornton Grimsley refers to the use of "cruppers" and "breast bands" in = describing "the U.S. Dragoon Saddle as adopted by Lt. Col. Kearney", in = correspondence dated 27 June 1833. John Funk ------=_NextPart_000_0067_01BFF3B4.60936B00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In Miller's painting of 1837, "Indian Warrior and = His Squaw",=20 he depicts the apparent use of breast bands, as well as cruppers, by = native=20 Americans.
 
Thornton Grimsley refers to the use of "cruppers" = and "breast=20 bands" in describing "the U.S. Dragoon Saddle as adopted by Lt. Col. = Kearney",=20 in correspondence dated 27 June 1833.
 
John Funk
------=_NextPart_000_0067_01BFF3B4.60936B00-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kbarrett@freedom.net Subject: MtMan-List: COA Date: 22 Jul 2000 18:20:21 -0700 Hello the list... Just letting all and sundry know I have changed my address to: kbarrett@freedom.net. Kristopher K. Barrett ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kbarrett@freedom.net Subject: MtMan-List: COA Date: 22 Jul 2000 18:22:11 -0700 Hello the list: Just letting all and sundry know I have changed my address to: kbarrett@fredom.net Thanx. Kristopher K. Barrett ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kbarrett@freedom.net Subject: MtMan-List: COA Date: 22 Jul 2000 18:23:05 -0700 Errrr. make that kbarrett@freedom.net. Sorry... Kristopher K. Barrett ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: MtMan-List: Tin Smith Date: 23 Jul 2000 08:20:51 -0600 Gentelmen and Ladies, Wen't for a ride with a freind yesterday to pick up the last piece to his set of nesting tin pots, when we got to his place we found a shop full of tin good's and samples of his work. The good's are all first rate and historicly correct, he ranges in goods from the 1700's to the 1900's. A couple of samples are: Tin canteen's (flask type) 1 1/2 qt for 25.00ea set of 3 pot's 60.00 per set he also makes lanterns,tin plates, tin wash basins, candle holders, candle molds, and moore. He has no web page, no catalog, just word of mouth. His name is Jack Powers, he lives in Heber city, Utah and you can reach him at 435-654-2626 This guy is a great. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Rock Subject: MtMan-List: Travois, and Barbs Date: 23 Jul 2000 21:54:10 -0500 Anyone else ever use a travois for any distance?? I am going to build one like we had in the fifties and am looking for any others with memories of how the poles lashed over the withers and if there was a strap or something up there to support the load. Any ideas on how a load of tipi poles travels... All I remember is they said the poles were on one pony...and the travois on others. Mrs. Eagle Elk told the stories and I would like to reconstruct them if possible. The poles she talked about had lash holes in some or all of them, near the tips. Poles wore out in one or two summers of traveling in western S.D.and Neb, NW Colo, and eastern Wy Any Barb fans out here? Looking for some or maybe some mustangs that show a lot of Barb. Most respectfully, Mike ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Saddles & Such Date: 23 Jul 2000 10:58:44 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BFF494.F7F79BC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As long is the saddle subject is up, can you give me any advice on = carrying personal items on a riding horse. The two options I can see are = wrapping everything in the blanket or using a "trap sack". Have wondered = about rolling the blanket with a piece of canvas for a ground cloth = also. Didn't think there was much stuff to take until I piled it all = together. Now I am starting to wonder if food is really necessary. YMOS WY PS If anyone can tell me how to get rid of all the computer crap that = follows all my posts please E-mail the process to me. Write slowly = computerese is a second language to me. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BFF494.F7F79BC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

As long is the saddle subject is up, can you give me any advice on = carrying=20 personal items on a riding horse. The two options I can see are wrapping = everything in the blanket or using a "trap sack". Have wondered about = rolling=20 the blanket with a piece of canvas for a ground cloth also. Didn’t = think there=20 was much stuff to take until I piled it all together. Now I am starting = to=20 wonder if food is really necessary.<G>

YMOS

WY

PS If anyone can tell me how to get rid of all the computer crap that = follows=20 all my posts please E-mail the process to me. Write slowly computerese = is a=20 second language to me.

------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BFF494.F7F79BC0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horses and such Date: 23 Jul 2000 22:20:06 -0700 (PDT) Wynn, The person who made my saddle is Tom Nichols. I will be seeing him at the end of August and will see if I can get a copy of the description he has spoken about so I can send it to you. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 ________________________________________________________________________________ At 08:02 AM 07/21/2000 -0600, you wrote: >Lee wrote: > >That's what I'm in the process of working out. I spend a lot of time in the mountains either going straight up or down..... but don't think a crupper is neccesary at this time as I've never had a saddle slip forward.... yet > >I have found that a saddle can slip back a long way without bothering the horse much- jus makes more work for him. But if it goes a few inches ahead on a downhill trail, it is on his withers and he is in pain. He will either shorten his stride and really stick his back feet under or try to jog out from under the saddle. A little farther forward and you can be spitting rocks out of yer mouth cause falling down hill you can really get up some momentum. I have used cruppers off and on mostly depending on the saddle. My experience might be different since I am a sorry excuse, and because I have not bothered to tighten the cinch much. > >Also I see a lot of cruppers in Miller paintings, but I do not see breast collars on riding stock. Can someone enlighten me with documentation? > >On another note, Jerry Zaslow referred to a description of the saddle that Jed procured in California. Can someone let me know where to find that source. > >Thank You > >WY > > > > > > > > >
>

Lee wrote:

>

That's what I'm in the process of working out. I spend a lot of time in the >mountains either going straight up or down..... but don't think a crupper is >neccesary at this time as I've never had a saddle slip forward.... yet

>

I have found that a saddle can slip back a long way without bothering the >horse much– jus makes more work for him. But if it goes a few inches ahead on a >downhill trail, it is on his withers and he is in pain. He will either shorten >his stride and really stick his back feet under or try to jog out from under the >saddle. A little farther forward and you can be spitting rocks out of yer mouth >cause falling down hill you can really get up some momentum. I have used >cruppers off and on mostly depending on the saddle. My experience might be >different since I am a sorry excuse, and because I have not bothered to tighten >the cinch much.

>

Also I see a lot of cruppers in Miller paintings, but I do not see breast >collars on riding stock. Can someone enlighten me with documentation?

>

On another note, Jerry Zaslow referred to a description of the saddle that >Jed procured in California. Can someone let me know where to find that >source.

>

Thank You

>

WY

> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Travois, and Barbs Date: 23 Jul 2000 22:42:15 -0700 (PDT) On Sun, 23 Jul 2000, Mike Rock wrote: > Anyone else ever use a travois for any distance?? I am going to build > one like we had in the fifties and am looking for any others with > memories of how the poles lashed over the withers and if there was a > strap or something up there to support the load. Any ideas on how a > load of tipi poles travels... Mike I was just a browsing through a borrowed copy of "man made mobile" the other day, and I believe there is an illustration in there of the rigging used to hook the poles over the woman's saddle. I am still waiting for my very own personal copy to get here via the banana boat it was undoubtably sent on.. .around the horn no doubt, so I can't quote you chapter and verse... but other folks can! No Barbs in this kids pasture, just Palouse Ponies... aka Appalousa's Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of North Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders www.geocities.com/northscribe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles & Such Date: 23 Jul 2000 23:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Wynn, I'm far from an expert but I try to follow what others who are much more knowledgeable on the topic have told me. You may already know all this and if you do, please bare with me. First of all a horse should not carry more that 1/4 it's weight. This means that a 1000 lb. horse should only carry 250 lbs. I estimate my horse to weigh about 1100 lbs. That means I can carry 275 lbs. maximum (which includes me.) As of yet, I have not gone out on an overnight with him yet where I have ridden in, but will within a couple of weeks. I have gone to a lot of events were I trailered him in but not where only what I could take was on him. When I have loaded him up for an all day ride where I wanted to simulate what I would take on an overnight trip, this is what I have done and he didn't have any problems. I weigh about 200 lbs. which means I should carry no more than 75 lbs. of gear. My saddle and tack weighs about 35 - 40 lbs. (this includes the 2 saddle blankets that I sleep in.) My gun and shooting bag weighs 10 lbs. The rest of my gear is about 15 lbs. The kind of stuff I carry is a tin cup with lid and light oil cloth poncho (both tied on to the saddle), spoon, small steel folding frying pan, 30 feet of extra rope, fire starting kit, an extra shirt, wool socks, light center seam mocs, light extra pair pants (I think they are muslin) and wool shirt. That stuff is in the saddle bags. This means that I should carry no more than 10 lbs. of food which is carried in the cantle bags. This includes a small tin of grease, sack of corn cakes mix (1 cup corn meal, 1 cup white flour, 1/4 cup sugar), sack of dried rice and beans, jerky or salt pork, some dried fruit and a couple of cakes of Mexican chocolate. That's it and probably missed some stuff. That is what I've learned from some of the best (Bob Schmidt, Dick Patton, Richard Ashburn and a host of others.) Hope that helps. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 ________________________________________________________________________________ At 10:58 AM 07/23/2000 -0600, you wrote: >As long is the saddle subject is up, can you give me any advice on carrying personal items on a riding horse. The two options I can see are wrapping everything in the blanket or using a "trap sack". Have wondered about rolling the blanket with a piece of canvas for a ground cloth also. Didn't think there was much stuff to take until I piled it all together. Now I am starting to wonder if food is really necessary. > >YMOS > >WY > >PS If anyone can tell me how to get rid of all the computer crap that follows all my posts please E-mail the process to me. Write slowly computerese is a second language to me. > > > > > > > > >
>

As long is the saddle subject is up, can you give me any advice on carrying >personal items on a riding horse. The two options I can see are wrapping >everything in the blanket or using a "trap sack". Have wondered about rolling >the blanket with a piece of canvas for a ground cloth also. Didn’t think there >was much stuff to take until I piled it all together. Now I am starting to >wonder if food is really necessary.<G>

>

YMOS

>

WY

>

PS If anyone can tell me how to get rid of all the computer crap that follows >all my posts please E-mail the process to me. Write slowly computerese is a >second language to me.

> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bob Schmidt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles and Such Date: 24 Jul 2000 08:34:19 +0100 To use gunny sack as hobbles: Open 'both' ends of the sack and put one hoof (attached to a leg) of the animal through the sack. Twist the sack until you have enough opening to put the other hoof through the other opening. This works very well and you will not injure the animal. Martingales and Cruppers: The Horse in Blackfoot Indian Culture by John C. Ewers.... Martingale and crupper had both practical and ostentatious value for the Blackfoot. They were used on the travois or pack horse to keep the load from slipping. Men generally used cruppers on riding horses only when traveling in mountainous country to hold the saddle in place. In this book they show a plain rawhide breast collar. They call this a Martingale. In Alfred Jacob Miller's drawing "Mule Equipment", there appears to be a breast collar on the mule. Also, Millers drawing "Trappers Starting for the Hunt" shows cruppers on the saddle mules. My personal preference is use of both the breast collar and crupper any time I ride, not just in the mountains. This has been my preference for 25 years. Hope this answers any questions you may have had. Bob Schmidt ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles & Such Date: 24 Jul 2000 07:33:27 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BFF541.750B08C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wynn, You don't mention what "Item" you wish to carry. There are saddle bags, = pommel bags and one could even sport a pack frame if necessary. John Funk ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BFF541.750B08C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Wynn,
You don't mention what "Item" you wish to = carry.  There=20 are saddle bags, pommel bags and one could even sport a pack frame if=20 necessary.
John Funk
------=_NextPart_000_001B_01BFF541.750B08C0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Matt Porter Subject: MtMan-List: Awl-for-All Date: 24 Jul 2000 14:39:03 -0500 Ho the List! Does anyone have any experience with the Awl-for-All? Should I waste my money on it? I know it's not the least bit authentic, but I would also like to use for things around the house. Thanks. YMHS Matt Porter Located in a hot and humid thicket in Sardis, Arkansas. ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Awl-for-All Date: 24 Jul 2000 12:46:00 -0700 What on earth is it? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: MtMan-List: Traders Row Page Date: 24 Jul 2000 16:04:22 -0400 Last year, I started a TRADERS ROW page for some of you to put items on sale. I'd like to expand it to these three lists. The page is set up and ready to go. All you have to do is email me a photo of the item (if you have one, and/or a GOOD description of what you want to sell, and I'll put it on the page. The URL is: www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Geyser/3216/tradersrow.htm While you are there, check out my web site :) Let me know if any of you re interested in continuing this. Its not a problem for me to do it. It's sort of a "labor of love" for all the help I have gotten from the lists. Ad Miller Alderson, WV ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: MtMan-List: Traders Row Page - OOPS!! Date: 24 Jul 2000 16:22:10 -0400 OOPS!!! I goofed..... try this URL... Its been one of those days... Nothing poasted yet.... The URL is: www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Geyser/3216/trader.htm Ad Miller Alderson, WV ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: OHilljack@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Traders Row Page Date: 24 Jul 2000 16:46:32 EDT In a message dated 7/24/00 4:04:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, admiller@brier.net writes: > www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Geyser/3216/tradersrow.htm Hey Buddy I'd like to look at it but that URL doesn't work, got a better one...How are you doin? and How is the Mrs. Mouse? I really miss you guys, I'm looking forward to Alafia...Were you serious about the hunting? I'm going to talk to Mark if you are and see if he is interested...Well get back to me on the URL;; Bill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Awl-for-All Date: 24 Jul 2000 15:50:52 -0500 Matt, The awl4all makes a looped chain type stitch that if the thread breaks (or wears through) at any point, the entire run of stitching will be lost. Its not only not authentic, it's not very useful. I had one many years ago. Don't waste your money. A pair of harness needles and separate awl is just as fast and many times more secure with a saddle stitch. For light leather use an appropriate glovers needle and a running stitch or whip stitch both of which are also superior to the awful-for-all stitch. Buy a big spool of linen thread and several papers of needles in various useful sizes and you'll be supplied for many years to come. John... At 02:39 PM 7/24/2000 -0500, you wrote: >Ho the List! > Does anyone have any experience with the Awl-for-All? Should I > waste my >money on it? I know it's not the least bit authentic, but I would also >like to use for things around the house. Thanks. > >YMHS >Matt Porter >Located in a hot and humid thicket in Sardis, Arkansas. >________________________________________________________________ >YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! >Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! >Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Traders Row Page Date: 24 Jul 2000 16:37:11 -0700 Ad, Tried to bring up your site w/o success, neither on Yahoo or MSN. John Funk ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Traders Row Page - OOPS!! Date: 24 Jul 2000 16:44:03 -0700 Ad, Made it...I've sent an item "For Sale" John Funk ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles and Such Date: 24 Jul 2000 21:54:44 -0700 (PDT) Hallo The Camp.... Got a note from Mike Moore that I thought was worth sharing on horses, and he kindly agreed to let me share it.... as I told Mike, if it helps me, it might also benifit some other lurker Lee ---------- Forwarded message ---------- I find that the learning curve with horses is short. A couple things happen and you say, "I'll never do that again." or "Let's modifiy what we did so it won't happen again." or "I think that we need to horse on the horse (and me) before doing anything like that again." And be careful, so many things can happen when a 2000 pound horse is involved, just freak accidents or minor injuries. In regards to your packing questions: Like you, I am always learning. And many people have alot more expereince than me. But it is hard to get all of our normal gear on a single horse and us too. That is why pack horses are nice. Helpful hints, Balance a canteen and a pistol (plus anything else) on the pommel which you need in a hurry. I keep a extra fire starting kit there. Really go functional on all other needs, one tip cup, a tin pot to boil and cook in, a collaspable canvas bucket, a canvas cover for a shelter and a bedroll (as small as you can get it) rolled up and put behind the horse on a set of saddle bags which holds all your misc. needs - extra sox, a shirt seasonings, food and mocs. Things which you can do to keep down the items needed= for your first trip do a one day or less traveling into camp. Have most of the stuff you need left in camp for you. Carry only the basics to start out (don't forget pouches and powder horns!) This will get you and the horse concertrated on the basics. Picture your self out just to have fun and when set up in camp, do day rides with your gear to work up and try things like where do like to carry the rifle and what is the best way to mount your beast with a rifle in one hand, all your pouches and horns. Some times I put a capote or canvas in front of me in the saddle I won't loose it as easily there. A bedroll can be divided up one blanket and cover in back, one under the saddle and a shelter cover in front. I usually have a small bag handy for trail food to snack on during the day. If you are riding with someone else, you pare down duplicates (you both don't need coffee pots and you can even use less blankets by sleeping together.) Different bags can be given to the individuals and that lessens the bulk you have, since two people need only slightly more than one. Hope I've helped on this long winded piece. I am always learning and will continue my riding, and equipement. I am still awed by the early men who came west and how they did it with few pieces of equipement. They improvised, used less and made do. And much we carry today (tent stakes, alot of cooking gear, they made on the trail, used and left) so they didn't have to carry it. hope this horses thing is a a good challenge to you, it always is to me. mike. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Education Date: 25 Jul 2000 14:40:50 -0700 (PDT) ***Warning*** This is a long message that deals with Education in our schools and the Lewis & Clark Corps of Discovery. It is intended for those that work with schools and such, and to fullfill a promise I made to Larry Pendleton. Your Most Obedient Servant... =20 Lee Newbill of North Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders www.geocities.com/northscribe ---------- Lee: here's the synopsis of the program... Introduction=20 In 1803 President Thomas Jefferson was pleasantly surprised by Napoleon's decision to sell the Louisiana Territory to the United States. Anxious to follow up on this fantastic turn of events and to determine what this meant to the country, Jefferson commissioned his secretary, Meriwether Lewis, to conduct an expedition to the Pacific coast. Primary purposes of the trip were to discover an all-water route to the Pacific and to protect the commercial interests of the US against foreign infringement. Jefferson was also keenly interested in the scientific prospects of the endeavor. He wondered if signs of the woolly mammoth, the giant sloth, dinosaurs, and other natural wonders would be found. While Lewis and Clark found that a water course route from coast to coast was not possible, their expedition excited the nation with their startling discoveries. The Lewis and Clark expedition discovered many new species of flora and fauna, completed a new map of the US from St. Louis to the mouth of the Columbia River, and provided an eye-witness account of the great Rocky Mountains. They also gained a great deal of knowledge about the cultures o= f the nations of Native Americans living along the trail. Their expedition opened the door for westward expansion and the growth of the new nation. This Lewis & Clark Rediscovery Project will also blaze new trails. Broad i= n scope, this project will provide teachers across the country with the skill= s and confidence to effectively employ technology in the classroom. The Rediscovery Project will provide teachers with an interdisciplinary framework in which to apply cutting-edge technology as students engage in their own "Re-discovery Project". Overview The Potlatch School District of Idaho, in collaboration with the Lewis and Clark Education Consortium Schools, is pleased to announce our successful bid to the US Department of Education=B9s "Technology Innovation Challenge Grants Program." The Lewis and Clark Rediscovery Project, which highlights the Lewis and Clark exploration of 1803-1805, offers an incredible opportunity to implement teacher professional development programs which will ultimately strengthen the educational system for both teachers and students. Through programs created under the Rediscovery Project, teachers will become better informed as to how they can maximize their use of educational technological capabilities. Both teachers and students in the initial consortium districts, as well as all subsequent partners will benefit from the Rediscovery Project. Teachers who implement these educational technological experiences will significantly further their students=B9 learning in a variety of disciplines. Consortium District Scho= ols (Lead Education Agencies =3D LEAs) include: Potlatch School District, Lewiston, ID; Lapwai School District, Lapwai, ID; Kamiah Joint School District, Kamiah, ID; Orofino School District, Orofino, ID, Kennewick School District, Kennewick, WA, Harriet Tubman Middle School, Portland, OR, Astoria Middle School, Astoria, OR, Golden Triangle Coalition= , Great Falls, MTKirn Middle School, Council Bluffs, IA; St. Charles School District, St. Charles, MO; Moundsville Schools, Moundsville, WV; Hunterdon Central Regional School District, Flemington, NJ. The Rediscovery Project presents a unique opportunity to implement interdisciplinary curricula that addresses national teaching and learning standards. The Rediscovery Project will integrate science, mathematics and technology with social science, language and graphic arts. In addition, the Rediscovery Project will focus on networking K-12 schools in the United States with each other and with schools along the Lewis-Clark trail (including many which have a significant number of Native American children). Professional Development Component A quality professional development program for teachers is central. The professional development component will be facilitated by teams from the University of Idaho=B9s Institute for Mathematics, Interactive Technology a= nd Science (IMITS) and by the Center for Educational Technologies (CET) at Wheeling Jesuit University. The goals of the professional development aspec= t of the Rediscovery Project are to provide teachers with a core of activities, content and strategies for best-practices in integrating scienc= e and the humanities in a collaborative social network. Further, and most importantly, the proposed Rediscovery Teacher Professional Development Workshops and Strategies will ensure the sustained, appropriate and integrated use of educational technologies in a collaborative, networked, and relevant program of local exploration of communities, culture and natural history. The Rediscovery Project is designed to complement, supplement, deepen and enhance teaching and learning and to accomplish the professional development educational technology goals of the U.S. Departmen= t of Education and the State's Departments of Education. Expected outcomes of the professional development component are an increase in teacher proficiency in: =85 the use of multimedia equipment and software, digital cameras, Quicktim= e VR and video capture; =85 investigative reporting and the use of the Internet as a research and publishing medium; process skills in the areas of anthropology, culture, and history; process skills in natural history and environmental sciences; and the appropriate and sustained use of communications and Internet technologies for cooperative learning. Features of the proposed Rediscovery Project include: collaboration with peer and mentor educators across the country; development of awareness, knowledge and working relations with state and local science and community agencies; the development of a social network of learners of all levels across the country with a re-invigorated awareness of human impacts on the land, ecosystems, and indigenous cultures throughout the growth of America= =B9s unique culture over the last 200 years. Rediscovery partners: The Lewis and Clark Rediscovery Project Potlatch School District The GLOBE Program Institute for Mathematics, Interactive Technology and Science at the University of Idaho Center for Educational Technologies at Wheeling Jesuit University University of Montana, GLOBE Franchise WEBSITE at: http://rediscovery.ed.uidaho.edu ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" Subject: MtMan-List: babrbs Date: 25 Jul 2000 18:47:59 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BFF668.DAEC1580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Could the rarity in breast bands shown in period art work be, because on = a barb type horse the shoulders are slightly narrower than other breeds? = Therefore one's more immediate concern would be the saddle sliding = forward. Explaining the more often seen cruppers. Anybody have any = comments? ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BFF668.DAEC1580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Could the rarity in = breast=20 bands shown in period art work be, because on a barb type horse the = shoulders are slightly narrower than other breeds?  Therefore=20 one's more immediate concern would be the saddle sliding=20 forward.   Explaining the more often seen cruppers.  = Anybody have=20 any comments? ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BFF668.DAEC1580-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" Subject: MtMan-List: barbs that is Date: 25 Jul 2000 19:00:42 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BFF66A.A129CA20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable please excuse me listmates=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BFF66A.A129CA20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
please excuse me listmates=20
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BFF66A.A129CA20-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JSeminerio@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: FESTIVAL OF THE AMERICAN FRONTIER , show & tell event Date: 27 Jul 2000 00:46:51 EDT FESTIVAL OF THE AMERICAN FRONTIER SAT & SUN August 5 & 6 Big Indian Valley Park Rt. 28 Big Indian NY info Call Frank Stapleton (914) 254-4238 Small show and tell event of some nice folks in a really nice part of the State. If you're not busy come on by. Soldiers, mountain man, crafters and sutlers will all be there. So, will I ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Smith Subject: MtMan-List: Dry Spell !!! Date: 27 Jul 2000 07:54:05 EDT Hey the Camp !!!! Anybody moving, it's been a long dry spell ? Lanney, Larry, Pablo, Dennis - anybody moving or talking, been real slow.= Let's get some talk going ! Was talking to Buck and he mentioned Pablo has been under the weather, ho= pe your healing up - nobody needs to end up or close to going to the hospita= l. Buck brought up an interesting subject on number of rounds (shots) fired = in an engagement, F&I War to the Vietnam War. He had read that even the Custer fight, experts figured the men of the 7th may have gotten 3 to 4 cylinder= s full touched off in a handgun - with number of Indians they may have shot= 15 to 20 times each, and the party was over. Most shots fired in any given engagaemnet was the Gettsburg fight - even more than the engagements in N= am. One report I saw said the bullets where as thick as "nats" in breeding season. Later Concho. ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm= ail.netscape.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: travois Date: 27 Jul 2000 07:46:15 -0500 Mike wrote, Uh......Mike, could you describe that arrangement a little better? What happens if the ponies decide to walk in different directions? I always thought a travois was dragged on the ground by one pony. At least that is what it looks like in old paintings. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dry Spell !!! Date: 27 Jul 2000 06:57:00 -0600 Concho, Seems this list has two speed's, we are either screaming at each other or just not talking. I was thumbing through "Millers book of drawings and in one of them I counted 18 full size wagons, can you imagine how much stuff they were hauling. Here is a litle tidbit I was saving, in the book "Man made Mobile" the letters from Thorten Grimsley and the War Dept. they talk about the discription of the sadle that is to be used by the 1st mounted Dragoons. In "Letters and Notes" by Catlin he writes in the chapter on Fort Atkinson about the expedition to the Comanche by the 1st mounted Dragoons. The Saddle's that Thorten Grimsley built were whitnesed in use by George Catlin. Prety wild! sorry I all ready looked in my copy there are no clear drawings. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: Concho Smith >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: Dry Spell !!! >Date: Thu, Jul 27, 2000, 5:54 AM > >Hey the Camp !!!! > >Anybody moving, it's been a long dry spell ? > >Lanney, Larry, Pablo, Dennis - anybody moving or talking, been real slow. > >Let's get some talk going ! > >Was talking to Buck and he mentioned Pablo has been under the weather, hope >your healing up - nobody needs to end up or close to going to the hospital. > >Buck brought up an interesting subject on number of rounds (shots) fired in an >engagement, F&I War to the Vietnam War. He had read that even the Custer >fight, experts figured the men of the 7th may have gotten 3 to 4 cylinders >full touched off in a handgun - with number of Indians they may have shot 15 >to 20 times each, and the party was over. Most shots fired in any given >engagaemnet was the Gettsburg fight - even more than the engagements in Nam. >One report I saw said the bullets where as thick as "nats" in breeding >season. > >Later > >Concho. > >____________________________________________________________________ >Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at >http://webmail.netscape.com. > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: no sparks with L&R Date: 27 Jul 2000 08:10:19 -0500 Mark Welcome to the finicky world of flintlock shooting. A hands-on look at your gun by an experienced flinter, of course, would be the best approach to solving your sparking problem. But, from what you said, I'll take a stab at a couple suggestions. Assuming your frizzen [hammer] face is properly hardened, try turning your flint with the bevel in the opposite direction you have been using it. That might help. Check to see of maybe the flint is too long, or too short. Either condition might affect the geometry enough to reduce sparking effectiveness. Check to see if the frizzen spring is too weak. You do need a certain amount of resistance there to make a spark. I replaced the spring on a no-sparker recently and no it does a good job. Some locks just do not like chipped flints. [yes, flintlocks have personalities and temperaments all their own]. Try using a good sawn flint, not one of those sold by the big commercial houses. The German or Penn. flints have given me excellent results. If this and what others might suggest fail. Send it back to L&R. Good luck. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: hammer position Date: 27 Jul 2000 08:17:31 -0500 Two Knives wrote, TK, good for you. That must mean you are getting smarter. My hopes for you are that you will continue progressing to where you become a flint shooter exclusively. :-) Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Poorboy" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lewis & Clark Education Date: 27 Jul 2000 07:39:32 -0700 Klahowya My Friends, If I may humbly make a suggestion to those interested in this very good and interesting educational program..... You may want to also contact the L&C Interpretive Center in Great Falls, MT. At one time, not to long ago, there was a group there that put together a fantastic curriculum and a set of trunks with reproduced items like uniforms, maps, writing tools, furs, plant specimens, etc.. The local schools implemented the curriculums and the trunks rotated between the classrooms for hands on experiences. YMOS PoorBoy ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: travois Date: 27 Jul 2000 14:04:57 -0700 (PDT) On Thu, 27 Jul 2000, Frank Fusco wrote: > Uh......Mike, could you describe that arrangement a little better? What > happens if the ponies decide to walk in different directions? I always > thought a travois was dragged on the ground by one pony. At least that is > what it looks like in old paintings. For what it's worth..... page 79 of "Man Made Mobile", 1980, shows a picture of a tipi being transported by horse. The lodgepoles are all pierced with holes about 18" (or so) from the skinny end, and are being carried six to a side, with the tipi being folded over the woman's saddle, and keeping the poles from soring the horse. Your Most Obedient Servant... Lee Newbill of North Idaho Clerk of the Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders www.geocities.com/northscribe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Fishing Date: 27 Jul 2000 16:33:09 -0500 I just received a fishing kit from Braddock Trace Merchantile (Paul Jones) that purely shines. Horsehair snelled hooks, silk and linen lines, lots of various hooks all done up just right. Only thing missing is a piece of snare wire for my favorite period fishing technique as first taught to me by Yaro. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. john kramer@kramerize.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: no sparks with L&R Date: 27 Jul 2000 16:37:57 -0500 Frank, No argument with what you wrote. Is this a response to a question from the list? Was it a recent posting? I ask because I don't remember the original question being posted and can't find it on my computer. I have been trying to track down so many computer problems lately; I'm wondering if I have another with my email servers. John... At 08:10 AM 7/27/2000 -0500, you wrote: >Mark > Welcome to the finicky world of flintlock shooting. A hands-on look at >your gun by an experienced flinter, of course, would be the best approach to >solving your sparking problem. > But, from what you said, I'll take a stab at a couple suggestions. > Assuming your frizzen [hammer] face is properly hardened, try turning >your flint with the bevel in the opposite direction you have been using it. >That might help. > Check to see of maybe the flint is too long, or too short. Either >condition might affect the geometry enough to reduce sparking effectiveness. > Check to see if the frizzen spring is too weak. You do need a certain >amount of resistance there to make a spark. I replaced the spring on a >no-sparker recently and no it does a good job. > Some locks just do not like chipped flints. [yes, flintlocks have >personalities and temperaments all their own]. Try using a good sawn flint, >not one of those sold by the big commercial houses. The German or Penn. >flints have given me excellent results. > If this and what others might suggest fail. Send it back to L&R. > Good luck. >Frank G. Fusco "A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to against every government on Earth... and what no just government should refuse." --Thomas Jefferson ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: no sparks with L&R Date: 27 Jul 2000 17:43:31 EDT > Frank, > No argument with what you wrote. > Is this a response to a question from the list? Was it a recent posting? > I ask because I don't remember the original question being posted Frank is having a senior moment. He posted an answer here that was asked on another list. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Huntershorn1@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Take me off this list Date: 27 Jul 2000 17:56:09 EDT I have ask several times nicely how to get off this list,If I can't get off it I'm going to start tossing. thank you for taking me off the list ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Fishing Date: 27 Jul 2000 15:09:13 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2000 2:33 PM > Only thing missing is a piece of snare wire for my favorite period fishing > technique as first taught to me by Yaro. John, Got me a kit from Paul back last year in Wy. up out of Jacksons Hole. Same parts with flies and lines, etc. I put it up in one of those bigger round tin's with several smaller ones to hold like items separate. Haven't gotten close enough to good fishing yet to put it to use but hope to in Sept. on our Fall Hunt. Paul does good work! So how do you use a snare wire for period fishing? I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Take me off this list Date: 27 Jul 2000 15:17:26 -0700 I presume you are an adult? A person responsible for themselves? Good. Click on the link at the bottom of this message and every message you have sent and everyone you have received and follow the directions. If that don't work then your just going to have to start tossing. Otherwise, I remain.... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2000 2:56 PM > I have ask several times nicely how to get off this list,If I can't get off > it I'm going to start tossing. > thank you for taking me off the list > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Take me off this list Date: 27 Jul 2000 17:52:32 -0500 The information you need can be found by clicking on the address found = at the bottom of your post. I took the liberty to cut and paste it for = you below. Lanney Ratcliff To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@xmission.com, where the body of = the message consists of unsubscribe hist_text your_email_address. or unsubscribe hist_text-digest your_email_address. depending on which version you are subscribed to.=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2000 4:56 PM > I have ask several times nicely how to get off this list,If I can't = get off=20 > it I'm going to start tossing. > thank you for taking me off the list >=20 > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Marc Stewart Subject: MtMan-List: Awl-for-All Date: 27 Jul 2000 18:53:53 -0400 Ho the List! Does anyone have any experience with the Awl-for-All? Should I waste my money on it? I know it's not the least bit authentic, but I would also like to use for things around the house. Thanks. YMHS Matt Porter Located in a hot and humid thicket in Sardis, Arkansas. Matt, I have done lots of sewing with this awl, but only on tubular webbing for a climbing harness. Its not pretty, and if you space out the stitches too much, its not very secure. Otherwise, its pretty good. The thread is strong and its easy to shove the needle through. I have (and contuinue) to rely on it to hold my weight while I step off a 200 foot cliff and freefall to the bottom. Its never let me down yet. Just get it knowing what you need it for! ..Marc Stewart ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dry Spell !!! Date: 27 Jul 2000 15:59:35 -0700 On Thu, 27 July 2000, Concho Smith wrote: > Was talking to Buck and he mentioned Pablo has been under the weather, hope your healing up - nobody needs to end up or close to going to the hospital. > Concho. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Paul "Pablo" Jones of Houston, Texas was put into the hospital with problems in both lungs at 2:30 PM MDT. Those that know him, will agree it has to be serious to get him into such a place. Let's all give him our best wishes for a fast recovery. Later. Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ AMM ~ NRA ~ Lenape Society ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Fishing Date: 27 Jul 2000 20:09:09 -0400 John, I am with Roger... Tell us how to snare fish... (know why wimmin's have small feet?? Evolutionary thing.. SO they can stand closer to the stove..) Ducking in Ohio D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Fishing Date: 27 Jul 2000 20:21:51 -0500 D, Since you asked so nicely and as a gesture to what remains of your short life considering your last utterance in the category of "truths that can get you gelded". Now mind you this is all hypothetical. I ain't saying I've ever done it. It is a technique for dire circumstance only -- starving times. It is illegal in every state I am aware of. Just like hunting porcupines with a club, shooting ducks on a pond, cooking a pot of honey or hanging big fish in trees in bear country, or chumming (baiting) pretty much any critter is illegal; but, it works and it can feed you quietly. Now as then it sometimes pays to be real quiet. This is for just in case you someday get real hungry. It is one of the best reasons to carry a piece of snare wire in your kit that I know. Tie a trappers slip knot (like a hondo on a riata) in the end of the snare wire and form a standing loop. Tie the running end of the wire to a long pole. Sneak up on the fish in the creek and as they feed in the current slip the loop up on them from the tail side when you are half or more over the body lift the pole to tighten the loop around their body and flip them out on the bank. It does leave a tell tale ring around them. John... At 08:09 PM 7/27/2000 -0400, you wrote: >John, > I am with Roger... Tell us how to snare fish... ____________________________________________________________ "The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of each citizen to defend it. Only if every single citizen feels duty bound to do his share in this defense are the constitutional rights secure." -- Albert Einstein ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Fishing Date: 27 Jul 2000 18:46:25 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2000 6:21 PM > It does leave a tell tale ring around them. > > John... Kinda figured that was how you were doing it. Just needed to get it in writing. Thanks. Capt. L ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Fishing Date: 27 Jul 2000 21:50:21 EDT I'm callin the cops ...John! Grin... Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Fishing Date: 27 Jul 2000 21:31:37 -0700 Dang ! I've heard it all now. Yankee fellers gonna rope fish. LP -----Original Message----- D, Since you asked so nicely and as a gesture to what remains of your short life considering your last utterance in the category of "truths that can get you gelded". Now mind you this is all hypothetical. I ain't saying I've ever done it. It is a technique for dire circumstance only -- starving times. It is illegal in every state I am aware of. Just like hunting porcupines with a club, shooting ducks on a pond, cooking a pot of honey or hanging big fish in trees in bear country, or chumming (baiting) pretty much any critter is illegal; but, it works and it can feed you quietly. Now as then it sometimes pays to be real quiet. This is for just in case you someday get real hungry. It is one of the best reasons to carry a piece of snare wire in your kit that I know. Tie a trappers slip knot (like a hondo on a riata) in the end of the snare wire and form a standing loop. Tie the running end of the wire to a long pole. Sneak up on the fish in the creek and as they feed in the current slip the loop up on them from the tail side when you are half or more over the body lift the pole to tighten the loop around their body and flip them out on the bank. It does leave a tell tale ring around them. John... At 08:09 PM 7/27/2000 -0400, you wrote: >John, > I am with Roger... Tell us how to snare fish... ____________________________________________________________ "The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of each citizen to defend it. Only if every single citizen feels duty bound to do his share in this defense are the constitutional rights secure." -- Albert Einstein ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Fishing Date: 27 Jul 2000 23:13:53 -0400 By some coincidence, I have just finished unpacking my kit from Paul and I am absolutely delighted with the items, especially the flies! He has done an incredible job. I can't hardly even see the little buggers - don't know how he does it. This is great stuff!! Tom BTW, the snare tactic only works in water you can see into (not mine) - unless you get really lucky! John Kramer wrote: > I just received a fishing kit from Braddock Trace Merchantile (Paul Jones) > that purely shines. Horsehair snelled hooks, silk and linen lines, lots of > various hooks all done up just right. > > Only thing missing is a piece of snare wire for my favorite period fishing > technique as first taught to me by Yaro. > > John... > > Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. > john kramer@kramerize.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List:past medallions Date: 27 Jul 2000 23:24:43 EDT Two of the first National Western Rendezvous I attended 1980 La Veta and 1981 The Hoback. I no longer have the medallions for those rendezvous and would like to replace them. Can any one help? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Paul Jones Date: 27 Jul 2000 23:26:09 -0700 Buck, Any idea how one can get word to Pablo for the purposes of a get well card? Hope things are not serious. John Funk ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Fishing Date: 28 Jul 2000 07:16:53 -0400 John, Thankee for the info... I will file that back with the other neat things I wanna try but am bound by the law not to. Hmmm, I have some snare wire around here somewhere.... (snaring critters is legal here in Ohio once again) Going back in the bunker now to get some sleep.. Wife went to work, and I slept damned light last night.. D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Paul Jones Date: 28 Jul 2000 04:47:54 -0700 On Thu, 27 July 2000, "John C. Funk, Jr." wrote: > > Buck, > Any idea how one can get word to Pablo for the purposes of a get well card? > Hope things are not serious. > John Funk ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~` Pablo is resting in the hospital with pneumonia per his wife last night at around 8:30PM. For get well cards they maybe sent to his P.O.Box @: Paul W. Jones P.O. Box 270844 Houston, Texas 77277-0844 When I talk to his lady tonight I'll let her know that friends are asking about him, Thanks. Later. Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ AMM ~ NRA ~ Lenape Society ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: no sparks with L&R Date: 28 Jul 2000 06:18:57 -0600 John, Think Mac! Ole ---------- >From: John Kramer >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: no sparks with L&R >Date: Thu, Jul 27, 2000, 3:37 PM > >Frank, > >No argument with what you wrote. > >Is this a response to a question from the list? Was it a recent posting? > >I ask because I don't remember the original question being posted and can't >find it on my computer. I have been trying to track down so many computer >problems lately; I'm wondering if I have another with my email servers. > >John... > > > >At 08:10 AM 7/27/2000 -0500, you wrote: >>Mark >> Welcome to the finicky world of flintlock shooting. A hands-on look at >>your gun by an experienced flinter, of course, would be the best approach to >>solving your sparking problem. >> But, from what you said, I'll take a stab at a couple suggestions. >> Assuming your frizzen [hammer] face is properly hardened, try turning >>your flint with the bevel in the opposite direction you have been using it. >>That might help. >> Check to see of maybe the flint is too long, or too short. Either >>condition might affect the geometry enough to reduce sparking effectiveness. >> Check to see if the frizzen spring is too weak. You do need a certain >>amount of resistance there to make a spark. I replaced the spring on a >>no-sparker recently and no it does a good job. >> Some locks just do not like chipped flints. [yes, flintlocks have >>personalities and temperaments all their own]. Try using a good sawn flint, >>not one of those sold by the big commercial houses. The German or Penn. >>flints have given me excellent results. >> If this and what others might suggest fail. Send it back to L&R. >> Good luck. >>Frank G. Fusco > >"A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to against every >government on Earth... and what no just government should >refuse." --Thomas Jefferson > > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: MtMan-List: oops! Date: 28 Jul 2000 06:28:06 -0600 Concho, Yesterday I sen't a message where I refered to a chapter in Catlin's book, I sai it was Fort Atkinson! it was not, it was Fort Gibson. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bob Schmidt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Paul Jones Date: 28 Jul 2000 07:54:37 +0100 Talked to Paul yesterday......sounded terrible. His address: 3711 Purdue Houston, TX 77005 Bob Schmidt ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronald Schrotter Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles & Such Date: 28 Jul 2000 07:31:19 -0700 (PDT) Hullo, Wynn. I have a designn for a lean-to shelter that is not much bigger than a ground cloth. I put it in T&LR many years ago. Contact me off list if you are interested. Works great on horseback Dog --- Wynn & Gretchen Ormond wrote: > As long is the saddle subject is up, can you give me > any advice on carrying personal items on a riding > horse. The two options I can see are wrapping > everything in the blanket or using a "trap sack". > Have wondered about rolling the blanket with a piece > of canvas for a ground cloth also. Didn't think > there was much stuff to take until I piled it all > together. Now I am starting to wonder if food is > really necessary. > > YMOS > > WY > > PS If anyone can tell me how to get rid of all the > computer crap that follows all my posts please > E-mail the process to me. Write slowly computerese > is a second language to me. > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Rock Subject: MtMan-List: travois Date: 28 Jul 2000 09:56:57 -0500 Frank.. I guess the ladies I heard this from were more modern.. They said that the whole set of poles, (and perhaps the lodge or other padding...Thanks Lee Newbill!) was on one horse. Then one or more travois, on seperate horses carried more stuff, up to and including Grandmaw. Mike I was just looking to see if anyone had tried this. We did as kids and had mixed success, as any horse person knows. It ain't like hitching a team to a wagon, that is FOR SURE! Oh, speaking of which. In ND we were pulling small stacks with two fours...went down a small steep grade near gramps house and that is when Walt notice the front four didn't have their britchin' buckled. Eveners pushed ahead forced all four to sit on their butts..right NOW. Back four were right up over the tops and it was a helluva mess. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Paul Jones Date: 28 Jul 2000 11:36:54 -0700 buck wish pablo our best will talk to the maker for him and hope for the best for him and the family "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Fishing Date: 28 Jul 2000 10:08:27 -0700 john --- what kind of price did they have on that fishing kit---it sounds like a good one--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Fishing Date: 28 Jul 2000 14:32:04 -0600 Does paul have a web site/ Joe Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl Subject: Re: MtMan-List: travois Date: 28 Jul 2000 14:31:14 -0600 look at Ewers book, "the blackfoot and the horse" Joe Have a look at our web site @ www.absarokawesterndesign.com Call us about our tanning, furs & leather and lodgepole furniture 307-455-2440 New leather wildlife coasters and placemats - ther're great!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Fishing Date: 28 Jul 2000 15:52:43 -0500 I got the super deluxe which includes everything but fish package; which runs about $125.00. He sells all the components individually. John... At 10:08 AM 7/28/2000 -0700, you wrote: >john --- >what kind of price did they have on that fishing kit---it sounds like a >good one--- > > "HAWK" The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to permit the conquered Eastern peoples to have arms. History teaches that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by doing so. -- Hitler, April 11 1942, revealing the real agenda of "gun control" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: MtMan-List: Paul Jones/Pablo Report 07/28/2000 Date: 28 Jul 2000 18:47:27 -0700 On Fri, 28 July 2000, hawknest4@juno.com wrote: > > buck > wish pablo our best will talk to the maker for him and hope for the best for him and the family > > "HAWK" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Pablo Report 07/28/2000 I talked to Pablo tonight, flat on his back with a tube feeding him, I could hear voices in the background - possibility a Doctor talking to Paul's wife. Pablo goes on about being "poked" and "prodded", lots of needles, testing, exrays. All this as he coughs and wheezes telling his tale of suffering - so much so that he never heard me yelling "give him exlax, give him an enema" no response from Pablo - he keeps talking and coughing. Once more "give him exlax, give him an enema", nothing - finally I yell "give him a freekin' enema". Pablo stops and says "What", I reply "never mind". I told him, (he finally runs out of air) that Mr. Kramer had very nice and kind words about the fishing kit Pablo made. Paul replies "hearing that from John will make be heal faster than any of these medicines they're feeding me, tell him I said THANK YOU". I still feel that if they would have taken by advise "give him exlax, give him an enema", he would be fine by morning. No charge for the medical advise Pablo. Later. Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ AMM ~ NRA ~ Lenape Society ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Saddles & Such Date: 28 Jul 2000 09:38:24 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BFF877.92FE4FC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John Funk wrote: You don't mention what "Item" you wish to carry. There are saddle bags, = =3D pommel bags and one could even sport a pack frame if necessary. = John, If you look at Jerry Zaslow's list he pretty well covers the pile. = Except for meat. I wanna take meat along else there might not be as much = of me coming back as leaving. Also wondered about nixing the fry pan and = making a set of New Mexican Skewers. Maybe Two feet long? Lastly Jerry = did not meantion a canteen. Since I have nothing that remotely resembles = a period canteen I would be happy to not bring one, but there is nothing = like a thirsty spell to change your mind. Any thoughts? If it came to caring a pack I believe it would be on a second horse not = me. As to saddle bags can they be documented or are they something we = have stolen from earlier or later period? I remember seeing pommel bags = on one of the saddles in a drawing on Dean site that was fairly close to = period, but nothing in Miller or the descriptions I remember resembles = saddle bags. Please excuse the disjointedness of the thoughts above WY=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BFF877.92FE4FC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

John Funk wrote:

You don't mention what "Item" you wish to carry. There are saddle = bags, =3D=20 pommel bags and one could even sport a pack frame if necessary. John, If = you=20 look at Jerry Zaslow’s list he pretty well covers the pile. Except = for meat. I=20 wanna take meat along else there might not be as much of me coming back = as=20 leaving. Also wondered about nixing the fry pan and making a set of New = Mexican=20 Skewers. Maybe Two feet long? Lastly Jerry did not meantion a canteen. = Since I=20 have nothing that remotely resembles a period canteen I would be happy = to not=20 bring one, but there is nothing like a thirsty spell to change your = mind. Any=20 thoughts?

If it came to caring a pack I believe it would be on a second horse = not me.=20 As to saddle bags can they be documented or are they something we have = stolen=20 from earlier or later period? I remember seeing pommel bags on one of = the=20 saddles in a drawing on Dean site that was fairly close to period, but = nothing=20 in Miller or the descriptions I remember resembles saddle bags.

Please excuse the disjointedness of the thoughts above

WY

------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BFF877.92FE4FC0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Paul Jones/Pablo Report 07/28/2000 Date: 29 Jul 2000 00:22:03 -0700 buck ---bet you are right---again tell him we are on his side---good people--- HAWK On 28 Jul 2000 18:47:27 -0700 buck.conner@uswestmail.net writes: > On Fri, 28 July 2000, hawknest4@juno.com wrote: > > > > buck > > wish pablo our best will talk to the maker for him and hope for > the best for him and the family > > > > "HAWK" > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Pablo Report 07/28/2000 > > I talked to Pablo tonight, flat on his back with a tube > feeding him, I could hear voices in the background - > possibility a Doctor talking to Paul's wife. Pablo goes on about > being "poked" and "prodded", lots of needles, testing, exrays. All > this as he coughs and wheezes telling his tale of suffering - so > much so that he never heard me yelling "give him exlax, give him an > enema" no response from Pablo - he keeps talking and coughing. Once > more "give him exlax, give him an enema", nothing - finally I yell > "give him a freekin' enema". Pablo stops and says "What", I reply > "never mind". > > I told him, (he finally runs out of air) that Mr. Kramer had very > nice and kind words about the fishing kit Pablo made. Paul replies > "hearing that from John will make be heal faster than any of these > medicines they're feeding me, tell him I said THANK YOU". > > I still feel that if they would have taken by advise "give him > exlax, give him an enema", he would be fine by morning. No charge > for the medical advise Pablo. > > > Later. > Buck Conner > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~ AMM ~ NRA ~ Lenape Society ~ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ > Aux Aliments de Pays! > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account > http://www.uswestmail.net > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List:past medallions Date: 29 Jul 2000 03:57:27 -0700 On Thu, 27 July 2000, MarkLoader@aol.com wrote: > > Two of the first National Western Rendezvous I attended 1980 La Veta and 1981 > The Hoback. I no longer have the medallions for those rendezvous and would > like to replace them. Can any one help? > > ---------------------- I'll have to look Mark, probably have one or two of the items your looking for, Trapper Tom had several of each also. Later. Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ AMM ~ NRA ~ Lenape Society ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Smith Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List:Fishing] Date: 29 Jul 2000 07:09:48 EDT John Kramer wrote: I just received a fishing kit from Braddock Trace Merchantile (Paul Jones= ) = that purely shines. Horsehair snelled hooks, silk and linen lines, lots = of various hooks all done up just right. John... ---------------------- John, Buck tells me that in the near future Pablo has some neat items to bring = out in the way of additional period fishing items, and going into other areas= of this sport also, he didn't go any further than "changes are in the works"= ? Only time will tell what these two have in mind or what they have found t= o offer the re-enactment folks. Concho. ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm= ail.netscape.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Smith Subject: MtMan-List: Pablo Report 07/28/2000] Date: 29 Jul 2000 07:18:22 EDT buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: Pablo Report 07/28/2000 I talked to Pablo tonight, flat on his back with a tube feeding............ "give him a freekin' enema". Pablo stops and says "What", I reply "never= mind".............. and we call you friend, and your making fun of a sick man on his back, an= d I understand Dennis has already put his claim in for Pablo's plunder, you t= wo are really something. It's hard to claim you two as friends and this is another example - anything you don't want Dennis, let me have a shot at i= t. Concho. ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm= ail.netscape.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Smith Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List:past medallions] Date: 29 Jul 2000 07:22:02 EDT On Thu, 27 July 2000, MarkLoader@aol.com wrote: > Two of the first National Western Rendezvous I attended 1980 La Veta an= d 1981 The Hoback. I no longer have the medallions for those rendezvous an= d would like to replace them. Can any one help? > ---------------------- Mark, was the La Veta metal a coin about the size of a quarter, stamped o= n one side ? May have one if this is correct. Concho. ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm= ail.netscape.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pablo Report 07/28/2000] Date: 29 Jul 2000 04:32:35 -0700 On Sat, 29 July 2000, Concho Smith wrote: > and we call you friend, and your making fun of a sick man on his back, and I understand Dennis has already put his claim in for Pablo's plunder, you two are really something....... > Concho. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Hey Concho, Remember in '80 at La Veta Nationals when Charley Hanson fell asleep under that tree near the sweat lodge and I took his mocs and we divided up his other gear, too bad Dennis wasn't there. Well, he looked gone! Later. Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ AMM ~ NRA ~ Lenape Society ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Concho Smith Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Pablo Report 07/28/2000]] Date: 29 Jul 2000 07:38:27 EDT buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: Hey Concho, Remember in '80 at La Veta Nationals when Charley Hanson fell asleep unde= r that tree near the sweat lodge and I took his mocs and we divided up his = other gear, too bad Dennis wasn't there. Well, he looked gone! ________________________________- Then Mr. Hanson put a notice on the message board about a vote to "string= you up" at the Sat. evening camp fire. I remember that one very well, and we = had to give back his plunder - sure was a nice knife. Concho. ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webm= ail.netscape.com. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List: Pablo Report 07/28/2000]] Date: 29 Jul 2000 04:44:31 -0700 On Sat, 29 July 2000, Concho Smith wrote: > Then Mr. Hanson put a notice on the message board about a vote to "string you up" ..... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ If you play, sometimes you have to pay, right. Has anyone got a URL for a coppersmith other than Goose Bay, got that one. Looking for items different than what Peter has - F&I War to Fur Trade mainly. Later. Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ AMM ~ NRA ~ Lenape Society ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: [Re: MtMan-List:past medallions] Date: 29 Jul 2000 08:36:30 -0700 The La Veta medal is about 2 inches tall and 1 and 1/2 inches wide. Has a beaver at the top facing right and a ribbon on the bottom of the main area that says Pro Patria. The main somewhat round area says...1980 NAPR-NMLRA Rendezvous LaVeta, Colo. Unless they stamped two different ones??? The 1981 is smaller and has an Eagle with wings out at the top of the main circle, beaver in the middle of the medalleon,gold looking color and it also says....NMLRA..NAPR Rendezvous...Gros Ventre...arount the outside. The year 81 is stamped under the beaver. Hopes this helps. I had a good time and will be buried with my medallions. And have you guys ever though about how much money we spent on each of those pieces of metal to get there, break downs, gas, etc.... THen there are the memories....LaVeta is still one of the best ones. Linda Holley ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pablo Report 07/28/2000] Date: 29 Jul 2000 08:36:24 -0400 Concho... Better to friends of ours than enimies..Eh? D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: MtMan-List: RE: Copperwork Date: 29 Jul 2000 08:55:23 -0400 Buck, I have been very pleased with the copper work of Westminster Forge (Tom Brown) who can be reached (keep trying) at 860-822-8473. His pieces are very well constructed, they are reasonably priced, and he's really good to deal with. I presume them to be accurate, although I am not knowledgeable enough to judge them with any certainty. He is not online that I know of. There's another fellow named Larry Shaw who also does great work and offers his wares at several Rondezvous's but I don't have any contact information until Alafia. Tom > Has anyone got a URL for a coppersmith other than Goose Bay, got that one. Looking for items different than what Peter has - F&I War to Fur Trade mainly. > > Later. > Buck Conner > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~ AMM ~ NRA ~ Lenape Society ~ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ > Aux Aliments de Pays! > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: MtMan-List: PABLO(Paul Jones) Date: 29 Jul 2000 12:50:28 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BFF95B.92544680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello All... Pablo called a few minutes ago... He is home now, sounding weak, but = alive... Didn't keep him long, musta been shaking his tallywhacker at = the nursies.. He said as soon as he can he would post on the list in a feeble attempt = to defend himself... He also said to say "Thanks" to all that thought of = him... Buck, he now knows about the enema.. I squealed on you like a = teenybopper at an Elvis concert.. D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BFF95B.92544680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello All...
 Pablo called a few minutes ago...  He is home now, = sounding=20 weak, but alive... Didn't keep him long, musta been shaking his = tallywhacker at=20 the nursies..<G>
 He said as soon as he can he would post on the list in a = feeble=20 attempt to defend himself... He also said to say "Thanks" to all that = thought of=20 him...
Buck, he now knows about the enema.. I squealed on you like a = teenybopper=20 at an Elvis concert..<BG>
D
 
 
"Abair ach beagan is abair gu math=20 e"
         DOUBLE EDGE=20 FORGE
    http://www.bright.net/~deforge1<= /A>
 
 "Knowing how is just the=20 beginning"
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BFF95B.92544680-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Coppersmiths Date: 29 Jul 2000 13:02:43 EDT In a message dated 7/29/00 4:44:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time, buck.conner@uswestmail.net writes: > Has anyone got a URL for a coppersmith other than Goose Bay, got that one. > Looking for items different than what Peter has - F&I War to Fur Trade mainly. > Later. Buck Conner > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Buck, Westminster Forge makes some beauty's Try www.historycom.com/historycomsuppliers.htm www.rogersrangers.tripod.com/sutlers www.historicaltrekking.com Hope this is of some help, Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: MtMan-List: He Dared Me To (OFF TOPIC) Date: 29 Jul 2000 14:35:40 -0400 Dennis Miles wrote: > Go ahead! Liven it up some!!! > D Ok, if you insist: All I've been hearing lately is "Dennis this", "Dennis that", "great stuff", on and on. So I figured I would sample his wares and see for myself. Well the package finally arrived, and with great anticipation I tore it open, only to find the most misshapen, blackened metal that gives dull a whole new meaning. Don't even look like real knife to me, and the edge is pretty much non-existent. I think he musta anviled this with his eyes closed, or perhaps he's been sniffing the forge fumes? Oh, I suppose I could slice butter, but it would be on a hot summer day with considerable force. Skinning? Forget it! Patch cutter? Not a chance! I would not want to have to defend myself with one of these, No Sirree!! I guess if you really want sharp, you have to ask for it. So that's my story Tom ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: He Dared Me To (OFF TOPIC) Date: 29 Jul 2000 16:11:14 -0400 Okee Dokee, Tom... Pretty good review.. But you left something out... Perhaps the fact that they were two wrought iron rings??? Hmmm...???? D (Who sponsered you??) "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: manbear Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pablo Report 07/28/2000] Date: 29 Jul 2000 16:40:11 -0400 buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > Hey Concho, > Remember in '80 at La Veta Nationals when Charley Hanson fell asleep under that tree near the sweat lodge and I took his mocs and we divided up his other gear, too bad Dennis wasn't there. Well, he looked gone! > > Later. > Buck Conner Kinda reminds me of my weddin' Memorial Weekend of '99. Our good friend Chargin' Buffler was supposed to be comin' in to camp on Saturday since he had to work late on Friday night. He sent all of his gear with his trappin' partner Doc and was supposed to catch the train from Chicago to Battle Creek on Saturday since he'd been caught drivin' around with his good buddy Capain Morgan and wasn't allowed to drive his truck for a while. Saturday cames, we goes to he train station and no Buffler. As a matter of fact, there was no sign of him or no word from him all weekend so, come tear down time on Monday, ol' Doc divies up his gear amongst his brother's, we all figurin' he's gone under. About a month later he comes draggin' into a camp wearin' nothin but a breech cloth and it took him near the whole weekend to barter back all his gear with his services. I do believe that to this day there are still pink beads on the fringe of his fine brain tanned shirt that my new wife put there when she wore it as a buckskin skirt. I guess it will teach him not to miss a brother's weddin'...G We do have fun Manbear ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz Subject: Re: MtMan-List: He Dared Me To (OFF TOPIC) Date: 29 Jul 2000 14:46:28 -0700 Don't hold back Tom, tell us what you Really think....Ouch.........hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: He Dared Me To (OFF TOPIC) Date: 29 Jul 2000 17:40:28 -0400 Dennis Miles wrote: > Okee Dokee, Tom... > > Pretty good review.. But you left something out... Perhaps the fact that > they were two wrought iron rings??? I was just getting to that part. Wantin' to see just how lively things got. It's a very quiet day. BTW, (for the rest of the list), they are a fine pair of rings. They are the first thing Dennis has made me that I haven't cut myself with (yet)! > (Who sponsered you??) Can't imagine what he was thinking! T ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: He Dared Me To (OFF TOPIC) Date: 29 Jul 2000 18:11:50 -0400 > > Can't imagine what he was thinking! > >>Drunk Again... I did WHAT??!??! D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coppersmiths Date: 29 Jul 2000 15:33:37 -0700 On Sat, 29 July 2000, LivingInThePast@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 7/29/00 4:44:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > buck.conner@uswestmail.net writes: > > > Has anyone got a URL for a coppersmith other than Goose Bay, got that one. > > Looking for items different than what Peter has - F&I War to Fur Trade > mainly. > > Later. Buck Conner > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Buck, Westminster Forge makes some beauty's > Try www.historycom.com/historycomsuppliers.htm > www.rogersrangers.tripod.com/sutlers > www.historicaltrekking.com > > Hope this is of some help, Barney > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Thank you folks for the fast replies on this amtter. Heard from Pablo, he's home and still kickin' and thanks Dennis for being a "KID" and squeeling. Later. Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ AMM ~ NRA ~ Lenape Society ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: MtMan-List: "Pablo's Big Adventure" Date: 29 Jul 2000 15:45:17 -0700 Pablo replied to one list but missed this list so here's the last message on "Pablo's Big Adventure", from the humble one. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Thanks to each and all who have called, e-mailed, and written. I am now back at home, and although the pneumonia is not yet fully contained in either lung, it was thought that 36 hours of I.V. antibiotics will be sufficient to make me get well (together with numerous pills, and threats as to future treatment options). Besides, every three days they change the I.V. site, and after watching the nice nurse from another country unsuccessfully gouge four holes in my arms in an vain attempt to insert the first I.V., while cursing in what I later learned was Tagalong, that my veins were "frightened," I decided to take my chances with my Wife. God Bless and Keep all Doctors, Nurses and Nurse Aides, and etc., but remember that one must always retain a sense of humor when in their cluthes. So for now, Dennis will not get all of my gear and trade goods. My best to each of you. Paul, or, in truth, Pablo the very Humble ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Later. Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ AMM ~ NRA ~ Lenape Society ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: help on dating old letter Date: 29 Jul 2000 18:53:37 EDT GUYS NEED HELP IN DATING A OLD LETTER ON THE LETTER IT READS SUNDAY 9TH 181? ITS MIGHT BE A 6 ARE 8.DOES ANYONE KNOW OF A WEB SITE WERE I MIGHT LOOK. traphand@aol.com thanks rick ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coppersmiths Date: 29 Jul 2000 19:08:35 -0400 Buck Conner "thanks Dennis for being a "KID" and squeeling." But he threatened me Buck..(whiney voice inseted) And I was afeared.... Acourse, according to my lovely Wife, if Pablo can catch pneumonia in mid-Summer in Texas, he would be toes up in 20 minutes here... (He wants to come to a Winter camp) D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wind1838@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Dennis Miles Trade Goods Date: 29 Jul 2000 22:59:05 EDT Mr. Roberts: Tom . . . I can't understand why you're having trouble with any forged item from Dennis Miles. Are you sure you know how to use a knife, axe, and two rings ? I know when mountaineers see the sparse plunder I carry, the first thing they tell me . . . when they see my (DM) butcher knife and my (DM) hatchet is "M'am, if you find this hatchet and knife missing, I feel it only fair to tell you that you should look for them in my camp." Those that know the best, just KNOW the best. I'd get rid of my Hudson''s Bay blanket and my elk hide before I'd ever get rid of anything Dennis Miles made. And, in all honesty, he didn't pay me to speak highly of him. Truth be known, I've never met the gentleman. So, again, Tom, are you sure you know how to use a knife ? Wind1838@aol.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred Subject: MtMan-List: Pillaged Americans, 1808 Date: 29 Jul 2000 21:10:36 -0600 Still reading the new edition of the Journals of Alexander Henry the Younger, & came across this entry for 14 Sept 1809, made at Fort Vermilion (near Vermilion, Alberta), and quite some distance from the Missouri: "Last year it is true we got some Beaver from them [Blackfeet], but it was the spoils of War. Having fell upon a party of Americans on the Missouri, they stripped them of everything they had, and brought off a quantity of Beaver Skins." (Gough 2:397) Which Americans would have been the targets of these pillaging Blackfeet? Manuel Lisa's group? Is there any record of this from an American journal? Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Dennis Miles Trade Goods Date: 29 Jul 2000 23:32:06 -0400 Yes Ma'am I believe I do, and I've got a hole in my shirt to prove it. In fact, you saw one of our DM knives (the one that made that hole) just a few weeks ago. I knew I was taking a chance with some risky humor at Dennis' expense and I sure don't want this to get any more out of hand. Most of the DM items I own are razor sharp and one would have to put up a helluva fight to take one from me. This time, he made some iron rings for a pouch strap and I had threatened, in jest, to poke fun at him on list about how dull his latest offering was. He said "go ahead", and I, perhaps too vigorously, did just that. I will likely not do so again. I tip my hat (and jug) to the fine crafter of metal for being a good sport in spite of his probable desire to separate me from my scalp. And yes, you do pack admirably light. Tom Wind1838@aol.com wrote: > Mr. Roberts: > > Tom . . . > > I can't understand why you're having trouble with any forged item from Dennis > Miles. Are you sure you know how to use a knife, axe, and two rings ? > > I know when mountaineers see the sparse plunder I carry, the first thing they > tell me . . . when they see my (DM) butcher knife and my (DM) hatchet is > > "M'am, if you find this hatchet and knife missing, I feel it only fair to > tell you that you should look for them in my camp." > > Those that know the best, just KNOW the best. I'd get rid of my Hudson''s > Bay blanket and my elk hide before I'd ever get rid of anything Dennis Miles > made. And, in all honesty, he didn't pay me to speak highly of him. Truth > be known, I've never met the gentleman. > > So, again, Tom, are you sure you know how to use a knife ? > > Wind1838@aol.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ssturtle1199@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pillaged Americans, 1808 Date: 29 Jul 2000 23:33:21 EDT Fall of 1808 was when John Potts and John Colter were caught on the Jefferson by the Blackfeet. Potts was killed, Colter dumped his traps in the Jefferson and it was the beginning of the infamous Colter's Run. My books give no reference to furs being taken, but possible???? Quote "A Life Wild and Perilous" by Utley. Pg 18 "Other trapping parties out of Fort Raymond also tested the Three Forks country during the fall hunt of 1808, but the growing rancor of the Blackfeet discouraged thorough work" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Dennis Miles Trade Goods Date: 29 Jul 2000 22:57:02 -0700 Oh Hell Tom, Now yer gonna make his head swell up, and poor Gwen will just have to get out her pole axe and put him in his place again. Pendleton -----Original Message----- Yes Ma'am I believe I do, and I've got a hole in my shirt to prove it. In fact, you saw one of our DM knives (the one that made that hole) just a few weeks ago. I knew I was taking a chance with some risky humor at Dennis' expense and I sure don't want this to get any more out of hand. Most of the DM items I own are razor sharp and one would have to put up a helluva fight to take one from me. This time, he made some iron rings for a pouch strap and I had threatened, in jest, to poke fun at him on list about how dull his latest offering was. He said "go ahead", and I, perhaps too vigorously, did just that. I will likely not do so again. I tip my hat (and jug) to the fine crafter of metal for being a good sport in spite of his probable desire to separate me from my scalp. And yes, you do pack admirably light. Tom Wind1838@aol.com wrote: > Mr. Roberts: > > Tom . . . > > I can't understand why you're having trouble with any forged item from Dennis > Miles. Are you sure you know how to use a knife, axe, and two rings ? > > I know when mountaineers see the sparse plunder I carry, the first thing they > tell me . . . when they see my (DM) butcher knife and my (DM) hatchet is > > "M'am, if you find this hatchet and knife missing, I feel it only fair to > tell you that you should look for them in my camp." > > Those that know the best, just KNOW the best. I'd get rid of my Hudson''s > Bay blanket and my elk hide before I'd ever get rid of anything Dennis Miles > made. And, in all honesty, he didn't pay me to speak highly of him. Truth > be known, I've never met the gentleman. > > So, again, Tom, are you sure you know how to use a knife ? > > Wind1838@aol.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GHickman@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pillaged Americans, 1808 Date: 30 Jul 2000 00:21:20 EDT agottfre@telusplanet.net writes: > Which Americans would have been the targets of these pillaging Blackfeet? > Manuel Lisa's group? Is there any record of this from an American journal?>> Check out this site: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/mmarch.html There is a reference to blackfeet attacking and stealing furs in the 1811 Lisa document. There is also another article on the 1810 activities around Three Forks. It seems to me that there is a reference here too. These may be later than your reference, but they are good reading. YMOS Ghosting Wolf ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles & Such (canteen) Date: 29 Jul 2000 23:42:04 -0700 (PDT) Sorry. Forgot to mention the canteen. I carry an old metal (steel I think) one quart British military canteen with the blue enamel spout and a cork. I took a file and got rid of the blue enamel on the outside of the spout, lined it with a mixture of 50% bees wax and 50% parafin wax from a regular white emergency candle. Next I covered it with a wool cover and then again with another white canvas cover and shoulder strap. From all outward appearances it looks like the tin or copper canteens of the period (looks like the one on Page 59 (plate #4) of the "Collectors Illustrated Encyhclopedia of the American Revolution" by George C. Neumann and Frank J. Kravic. Yes it is a little early, but I believe canteen of this type were around during our period. I tied a knot in the strap because I designed it to be slung over my shoulder when hiking and this shortened it so I can hang it over the horn of my saddle. Then I tie it to the saddle to keep it in place. I would strongly recommend a metal canteen and not a wood or gourd one. They get knocked around pretty good and the metal will hold up. Hope that helps. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 ________________________________________________________________________________ At 09:38 AM 07/28/2000 -0600, you wrote: >John Funk wrote: > >You don't mention what "Item" you wish to carry. There are saddle bags, = pommel bags and one could even sport a pack frame if necessary. John, If you look at Jerry Zaslow's list he pretty well covers the pile. Except for meat. I wanna take meat along else there might not be as much of me coming back as leaving. Also wondered about nixing the fry pan and making a set of New Mexican Skewers. Maybe Two feet long? Lastly Jerry did not meantion a canteen. Since I have nothing that remotely resembles a period canteen I would be happy to not bring one, but there is nothing like a thirsty spell to change your mind. Any thoughts? > >If it came to caring a pack I believe it would be on a second horse not me. As to saddle bags can they be documented or are they something we have stolen from earlier or later period? I remember seeing pommel bags on one of the saddles in a drawing on Dean site that was fairly close to period, but nothing in Miller or the descriptions I remember resembles saddle bags. > >Please excuse the disjointedness of the thoughts above > >WY > > > > > > > > >
>

John Funk wrote:

>

You don't mention what "Item" you wish to carry. There are saddle bags, = >pommel bags and one could even sport a pack frame if necessary. John, If you >look at Jerry Zaslow’s list he pretty well covers the pile. Except for meat. I >wanna take meat along else there might not be as much of me coming back as >leaving. Also wondered about nixing the fry pan and making a set of New Mexican >Skewers. Maybe Two feet long? Lastly Jerry did not meantion a canteen. Since I >have nothing that remotely resembles a period canteen I would be happy to not >bring one, but there is nothing like a thirsty spell to change your mind. Any >thoughts?

>

If it came to caring a pack I believe it would be on a second horse not me. >As to saddle bags can they be documented or are they something we have stolen >from earlier or later period? I remember seeing pommel bags on one of the >saddles in a drawing on Dean site that was fairly close to period, but nothing >in Miller or the descriptions I remember resembles saddle bags.

>

Please excuse the disjointedness of the thoughts above

>

WY

> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Dennis Miles Trade Goods Date: 30 Jul 2000 08:16:19 -0400 Pendleton Wrote" "Gwen will just have to get out her pole axe and put him in his place again. " Larry, You KNOW Gwen does that as a matter of course with that damned warclub every week or so.. ( I REALLY like it too!!) D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Dennis Miles Trade Goods Date: 30 Jul 2000 08:18:11 -0400 Miss Laura, Thank You, Ma'am. Mr Roberts.. :-P PTTTTHHHhhhhttthhhhh! D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jdsteach@dwave.net Subject: MtMan-List: Re: What to do with the pretty thang? Date: 30 Jul 2000 09:56:02 -0500 Greetings again, List! Had a notion and thought I would bounce it off you all. When I first got started in this reenactment and black powder venture, I picked up a pretty T/C Hawken right away. So bright, so brassy, so not period to anything. I am left handed and the thing is right handed...hense the cheek piece is on the wrong side...useless. I have just redone a couple of milsurp rifles and was wondering about ...gulp, tearing down the T/C and making it look closer to a firearm used by a man of the woods and hills. Possibly shave down the cheek piece, brown the barrel(instead of the blue), change the sights to something more period... I don't know what to do with the brass furniture. Let it dull up? Or would this be some sort of desecration? What do you think? Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions. JDS ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: help on dating old letter Date: 30 Jul 2000 10:00:59 -0500 http://www.cmmei.com/calendar.htm Traphand Try here. YMOS Lanney Ratcliff ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: help on dating old letter Date: 30 Jul 2000 10:14:40 -0500 Sunday the 9th 181? could be: Sept or Dec 1810 June 1811 Feb or Aug 1812 May 1813 Jan or Oct 1814 Apr or July 1815 June 1816 Feb, March or Nov 1817 Aug 1818 May 1819 http://www.cmmei.com/calendar.htm ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: What to do with the pretty thang? Date: 30 Jul 2000 11:33:43 EDT JDS, What you are asking has been done by many. You have a zillion options. As for the cheekpiece, it is no problem to rasp it down to get rid of it. Browning the barrel is no big deal either, and all you have to do is degrease it thoroughly and apply any of the browning solutions right over the blue, and they will take in most cases. The lock is color cased, but if you disassemble it, and sand the lockplate and hammer with 600 grit wet sandpaper, you can apply Birchwood Casey plum brown to them and have a nice browned lock. Replacement hardware for the TC is sold by several manufacturers in iron. Dixie has the conversion listed in their catalog. Track of the Wolf also might have it, as does The GunWorks. Several companies also offer a set of primitive replacement sights which use the existing dovetail and screw holes. Instead of the brass nosecap, it is very easy to pour a pewter nosecap. You could even pour a pewter capbox, using the existing mortice as a mold. Some thinning and re-profiling of the wood can completely change the looks of the gun. Pecatonica sells replacement stocks in curly maple, either half or full stock and all your existing hardware will transfer over to it. Lots of ways to take your parts and turn them into a more near period correct piece. I did one from parts I had laying around, and it looks like an English Sporting rifle now. The possibilities are limited only by your skills and imagination. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: S Jones Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: What to do with the pretty thang? Date: 30 Jul 2000 08:37:16 -0700 (PDT) --- jdsteach@dwave.net wrote: > Greetings again, List! > Had a notion and thought I would bounce it off you > all. > When I first got started in this reenactment and > black powder venture, I > picked up a pretty T/C Hawken right away. So > bright, so brassy, so not > period to anything. > I am left handed and the thing is right > handed...hense the cheek piece > is on the wrong side...useless. I have just redone > a couple of milsurp > rifles and was wondering about ...gulp, tearing > down the T/C and making > it look closer to a firearm used by a man of the > woods and hills. > Possibly shave down the cheek piece, brown the > barrel(instead of the > blue), change the sights to something more period... > I don't know what to do with the brass furniture. > Let it dull up? > Or would this be some sort of desecration? > What do you think? > Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions. > > JDS I modified my T/C Hawken to suit me, not the next caretaker of the rifle. Anyone saying that resale value is kaput is full of pe-pe-ca-ca. Cut off the cheekpiece and while I was at it shaved 3/8 inch off the top of the buttstock for a lower drop. Used the cleaning patches full of black powder fouling to tarnish the brass furniture. As for finishes, I used a mixture of linseed oil, beeswax and turpentine (equal parts). Melt the beeswax and stir in the liquids (no boiling or simmering, just heat slowly) I experimented with sights until I settled on a peep sight (bifocals nowadays) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Dennis Miles Trade Goods Date: 30 Jul 2000 09:51:55 -0700 On Sat, 29 July 2000, tom roberts wrote: > I own are razor sharp and one would have to > put up a helluva fight to take one from me. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~` Damn Dennis !!! I can only cut lettuce with the ones I got from you ??? Later. Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ AMM ~ NRA ~ Lenape Society ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coppersmiths Date: 30 Jul 2000 09:54:40 -0700 On Sat, 29 July 2000, "Dennis Miles" wrote: > > Buck Conner > "thanks Dennis for being a "KID" and squeeling." > > But he threatened me Buck..(whiney voice inseted) And I was afeared.... > Acourse, according to my lovely Wife, if Pablo can catch pneumonia in > mid-Summer in Texas, he would be toes up in 20 minutes here... > (He wants to come to a Winter camp) > D ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Isn't that the truth, say out of the Rockies Pablo. Later. Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ AMM ~ NRA ~ Lenape Society ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John C. Funk, Jr." Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Saddles & Such Date: 30 Jul 2000 10:28:16 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0069_01BFFA10.DF431740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wynn, As mentioned, it all boils down to wright, weight, weight. As for = skewers, cut willow (instead of packing pointee metal stuff) or some = safe (nontoxic) branch to cook meat on. Meat can be had most anywhere = within the wilderness setting if you willing to forrage. If you take = meat, wrap it in (bees) waxed canvas or possibly brown paper. Will last = for about 5 to 7 days depending....=20 Don't think of saddle bags in the conventional sense. I've sewed some = out of canvas similiar to a set of haversacks. The're lightweight and = can hold about anything. Ya can't tell me a haversack was never slung = over a critters backside. Another set can be made for pommel bags. = Size and dimentions are up to you. I've also sewn a "canteen" out of alum boiled fine canvas which was then = boiled in beeswax. Seeps some but also keep the water cooler as = evaperation kicks in. I've thought about covering it with "hair on" = mule deer hide to give it a little more protection from rough treatment. = Few folks carried or possesed "fine" gear and a lot of stuff was = fabricated out of what was at hand. Good luck, John Funk ------=_NextPart_000_0069_01BFFA10.DF431740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Wynn,
As mentioned, it all boils down to wright, weight,=20 weight.  As for skewers, cut willow (instead of packing pointee = metal=20 stuff) or some safe (nontoxic) branch to cook meat on. Meat can be had = most=20 anywhere within the wilderness setting if you willing to forrage. If you = take=20 meat, wrap it in (bees) waxed canvas or = possibly brown=20 paper.  Will last for about 5 to 7 days depending....
 
Don't think of saddle bags in the conventional = sense. =20 I've sewed some out of canvas similiar to a set of haversacks.  = The're=20 lightweight and can hold about anything.  Ya can't tell me a = haversack was=20 never slung over a critters backside.  Another set can be made for = pommel=20 bags.  Size and dimentions are up to you.
 
I've also sewn a "canteen" out of alum boiled fine = canvas=20 which was then boiled in beeswax.  Seeps some but also keep the = water=20 cooler as evaperation kicks in.   I've thought = about covering it=20 with "hair on" mule deer hide to give it a little more protection = from=20 rough treatment.
 
Few folks carried or possesed "fine" gear and a lot = of stuff=20 was fabricated out of what was at hand.
 
Good luck,
John Funk
------=_NextPart_000_0069_01BFFA10.DF431740-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Dennis Miles Trade Goods Date: 30 Jul 2000 13:30:44 -0400 >Buck Wrote< " I can only cut lettuce with the ones I got from you ???" What ever makes you happy, O Wise One.... D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: What to do with the pretty thang? Date: 30 Jul 2000 13:54:30 -0400 Vinegar does a good job of removing the bluing from the barrel. Then wash with baking soda and water mixture to neutralize the acid in the vinegar. LARRY P. the hog fat you mentioned you make tallow from is really lard. Hog fat contains natural salt, could be corrosive on metal if used. Beef suet is very good tallow. I was under the impression the mountainmen and indians used buff for tallow. beef being a close cousin of buffalo to me seems better. John (BIG JOHN) Hunt longhunter mountainman Southwest, Ohio ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2000 11:34 AM > JDS, > > What you are asking has been done by many. You have a zillion options. > As for the cheekpiece, it is no problem to rasp it down to get rid of it. > Browning the barrel is no big deal either, and all you have to do is degrease > it thoroughly and apply any of the browning solutions right over the blue, > and they will take in most cases. > > The lock is color cased, but if you disassemble it, and sand the lockplate > and hammer with 600 grit wet sandpaper, you can apply Birchwood Casey plum > brown to them and have a nice browned lock. > > Replacement hardware for the TC is sold by several manufacturers in iron. > Dixie has the conversion listed in their catalog. Track of the Wolf also > might have it, as does The GunWorks. Several companies also offer a set of > primitive replacement sights which use the existing dovetail and screw holes. > > Instead of the brass nosecap, it is very easy to pour a pewter nosecap. You > could even pour a pewter capbox, using the existing mortice as a mold. Some > thinning and re-profiling of the wood can completely change the looks of the > gun. Pecatonica sells replacement stocks in curly maple, either half or full > stock and all your existing hardware will transfer over to it. > > Lots of ways to take your parts and turn them into a more near period correct > piece. > I did one from parts I had laying around, and it looks like an English > Sporting rifle now. The possibilities are limited only by your skills and > imagination. > > Dave Kanger > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: What to do with the pretty thang? Date: 30 Jul 2000 11:45:45 -0700 JDS, My first gun was a 50 cal. TC percussion. It is now hard to identify it as a TC anything after I got through with it some 20 years ago. Along with what you already suggest doing, you can cut the nose cap off just half way through the ram rod hole (horizontally) , clean it up so it looks like it was made that way (still lots of brass there to file away) and add a nice brass entry pipe behind it or Pure a pewter nose cap in it's place with a brass entry pipe. You can do some filing on the butt plate top to disguise it (some flats and facets to change it's profile). Remove the rear mount on the trigger guard and lay the curl so it lays flat against the underside of the stock. Sand off the cheek piece. Leave the patch box or replace it with a larger one that covers the original hole. Covert it to flint to make it more reliable and of an earlier period (most if not all the guns used in the RMFT were full stock flint locks not percussion's) In fact if you covered it to flint with a new barrel and the touch hole on the left side (to accommodate your leftyness) You could fill the old lock plate in with a nice inlay. Design slightly different wedge plates to camo the original shapes. Try your hand at metal engraving on the brass. Let the brass go dull naturally or replace it with iron mountings. Lots of ideas of what you can do. Hope that it helps. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Cc: Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2000 7:56 AM > Greetings again, List! > Had a notion and thought I would bounce it off you all. > When I first got started in this reenactment and black powder venture, I > picked up a pretty T/C Hawken right away. So bright, so brassy, so not > period to anything. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck.conner@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Dennis Miles Trade Goods Date: 30 Jul 2000 12:59:08 -0700 On Sun, 30 July 2000, "Dennis Miles" wrote: > >Buck Wrote< > " I can only cut lettuce with the ones I got from you ???" > What ever makes you happy, O Wise One.... > D ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Concho figured it out - we turned the blade over, thanks "Kid". Later. Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ AMM ~ NRA ~ Lenape Society ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ Aux Aliments de Pays! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Rock Subject: MtMan-List: Dennis Date: 30 Jul 2000 15:33:30 -0500 > " I can only cut lettuce with the ones I got from you ???" > What ever makes you happy, O Wise One.... > D ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Concho figured it out - we turned the blade over, thanks "Kid". Oh no!!! That's what's wrong with Dennis's knives I got..the handles are on upside down!! And you'll have to pry them out of my cold, ...fingers to get them away from me, too. Still grinning Dennis :) Mike ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dennis Date: 30 Jul 2000 17:37:52 -0400 BUCK WROTE:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > - we turned the blade over, thanks "Kid".< Gentlemen... I have blockbuster of a solution for you.. I make a right handy double edged sticker... That way, no matter which way you grab it, you have an edge... D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Randal J Bublitz Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dennis Date: 30 Jul 2000 15:28:53 -0700 Now that is Marketing... hardtack ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Wild Cherry sap... Date: 30 Jul 2000 19:53:42 EDT Hallo the List, Here's a question that mebbe the Great John Kramer could answer for me...... In the NW we have a wild cherry tree that has a beautiful dark red/silver bark, and I sometimes use it to back osage or yew bows. The bark is real strong in the lateral, as it grows, so need a fairly large tree to get the strips. Lately, I've seen some of the cherry trees secreting an amber colored sap, in gobs about as big as your thumb. It's rather sticky stuff under the hard crust, and I'm thinking it would make a good, natural glue for feathers, points, or what ever. I tried melting some with heat, (it will not burn with a flame) but that didn't work. So the question is... what can I dissolve the sap in, to make up a glue? Ymos, Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wild Cherry sap... Date: 30 Jul 2000 18:37:22 -0700 Magpie, It is either alcohol or water solvent. If it won't burn readily, it is probably only water solvent and may not work all that well for glue in wet side WA. Just my guess. I know what your referring to as we get it on our Domestic Cherry trees over here. Capt. L ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2000 4:53 PM > Hallo the List, > > Here's a question that mebbe the Great John Kramer could answer for me...... > > In the NW we have a wild cherry tree that has a beautiful dark red/silver > bark, and I sometimes use it to back osage or yew bows. The bark is real > strong in the lateral, as it grows, so need a fairly large tree to get the > strips. > > Lately, I've seen some of the cherry trees secreting an amber colored sap, in > gobs about as big as your thumb. It's rather sticky stuff under the hard > crust, and I'm thinking it would make a good, natural glue for feathers, > points, or what ever. I tried melting some with heat, (it will not burn with > a flame) but that didn't work. So the question is... what can I dissolve the > sap in, to make up a glue? > > Ymos, > Steve > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wild Cherry sap... Date: 30 Jul 2000 21:53:58 -0500 At 07:53 PM 7/30/2000 -0400, you wrote: >Lately, I've seen some of the cherry trees secreting an amber colored sap,= =20 >... ...what can I dissolve the sap in, to make up a glue? > >Ymos, >Steve Hmm, First: if you want glue why not just use glue? Boil down the hide &/or=20 hooves of any animal or fish and make glue. Most tree resin is sticky when it bleeds from a wound. Off the top of my head I don't remember any recipes calling for cherry=20 resins. They could probably be distilled to leave a form of turpentine and= =20 rosin (if you distill for spirits and separate the solids) or more likely=20 cooked down to leave a residue like maple syrup and sugar. Every tree resin should be soluble in one or more of many essential oils,=20 fixed oils, water, turpentine or alcohol. Heat may or may not aid the=20 process. If I encounter any references to using cherry sap I'll try to remember to=20 take note. The foggy dark corners of my mind seem to want to bring up=20 something about being used in medicine. Cherry bark of at least one specie= =20 has certainly been used. Now where have I hidden that old=20 pharmacology? If you're interested in following it up start studying=20 decoctions and infusions. That you're backing bows with it is interesting, if it is that strong it=20 might make good woven bark chair bottoms and backs? Maybe useful in=20 weaving baskets? *********************** Here are a couple of period recipes for waterproof glue as verbatim as=20 written as I can verbatim: FIRE AND WATERPROOF CEMENT 1 gill vinegar 1 gill milk Seperate the curd and mix the whey with; 5 egg whites Beat well together and sift sufficient quick lime to convert to consistency= =20 of thick paste. Vessels mended with this cement never seperate and resist=20 action of both fire and water. YATES WATERPROOF CEMENT 4 oz. best glue 2 oz isinglass Dissolve in standard glue pot with mild ale over slow fire to the substance= =20 of strong glue. 1 1/2 oz. well boiled linseed oil is gradually added and=20 the whole well mixed. When cold and made into cakes it resembles india=20 rubber. Dissolve in equal part ale for use. Used for wood, china,=20 earthenware, glass and leather. For leather apply hot and allow to cool six= =20 hours while clamped or weighted. By adding a little tow it is suitable for= =20 sealing casks. ************************************************ John... John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwjones@excelonline.com Subject: RE: Re: MtMan-List:Fishing Date: 31 Jul 2000 08:06:01 -0700 --- Original Message --- Joe Brandl Wrote on Fri, 28 Jul 2000 14:32:04 -0600 ------------------ Does paul have a web site/ Yes, temporary for the moment. Look at www.rendezvoutraders.com Enter and go to Braddock's Trace Mercantile. Joe, thanks for the inquiry. Paul ----- Sent using MailStart.com ( http://MailStart.Com/welcome.html ) The FREE way to access your mailbox via any web browser, anywhere! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wild Cherry sap... Date: 31 Jul 2000 11:15:47 EDT In a message dated 7/30/00 8:00:26 PM, kramer@kramerize.com writes: << First: if you want glue why not just use glue? Boil down the hide &/or hooves of any animal or fish and make glue. >> Thanks John, Capt Lathi, I'm always looking for some "waterproof" natural glue for fletching, splices, and sealing.....hide glue works for some, not for others. I tried to dissolve the resin in mineral spirits, lacquer thinner, alcohol, and water.....only water worked, so that answered the question. The resin is probably not good for much.... <<>> The bark is strong stuff....reminds me of the nylon strapping tape. You can pull it apart the long way, but not tear it in two. To use it on a chair back and bottom I'm sure would work well and make a beautiful chair or basket. You'd need a large tree as your strips need to be cut from around the tree... John Strunk is a bowyer from Tillamook, OR and has been using cherry bark backing for years.... What was birch pitch mixed with to make it water proof on bark canoes? (ain't no stinkin birch around here though) Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wild Cherry sap... Date: 31 Jul 2000 08:47:31 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 8:15 AM > What was birch pitch mixed with to make it water proof on bark canoes? (ain't > no stinkin birch around here though) Magpie, There are birch trees around but that's not what they used to seal the seams of bark canoes. The birch tree's around this part of the country are red river birch and look a lot like cherry trees and their bark is much like cherry bark. I'm guessing on the correct name but I believe it was balsm fir pitch or probably some other tree's pitch or gum resin. Not water soluble like your cherry sap. It was mixed with charcoal and perhaps some animal fat and was heated to make it pliable enough to spread on the seams. Now nobody hold me to the ingredients on this stuff. But no, not water soluable. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Wild Cherry sap... Date: 31 Jul 2000 10:00:17 -0600 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana John Strunk is a bowyer from Tillamook, OR and has been using cherry bark backing for years.... Ymos, Magpie Hi Magpie, Woke up this morning just before daylight. While outside feeding the critters I watched daylight start up. About a half an hour after daylight I turned and headed towards the lodge. I just stepped in. When I heard the sound of branches thrashing from the old cottonwood and loud thump smack the ground just outside the lodge door. I grabbed the camp bow and stepped back outside with three broad head arrows. I could not believe a mature coon would fall asleep and then fall out of the tree while breaking his back so he could not get up. I could see some white stuff on the muzzle. So I pinned him to the ground where I could watch him. He did not show any more of the foamy stuff but went into convulsions. Like some critters do when they have distemper. The sheriffs office said they had a similar occurrence two weeks ago and the test came up negative. I will take the head in this afternoon for shipping to the state lab for the test. I met John Strunk at a shoot in the Porky Pine Hills west of Cardston, Canada. We just finished up a week of bow camp on Clark Bottom. I opened up the Institute of Crow Bows Lodge. Hotter than last year. More mosquitoes too. I did not do anything remarkable at the shoot. I hit 39 out of 40 targets and shot 11th. Long hard enduring day. We moved elk, moose and the gray wolf off the range as we shot the round. From Walt's Badgerhole. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Spencer Subject: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap... Date: 31 Jul 2000 12:27:53 -0400 >I'm guessing on the correct name but I believe it was balsm fir pitch or >probably some other tree's pitch or gum resin. Not water soluble like your >cherry sap. It was mixed with charcoal and perhaps some animal fat and was >heated to make it pliable enough to spread on the seams. Now nobody hold me >to the ingredients on this stuff. Journal of John Joseph Henry, a riflemen from Pennsylvania, on the march to Quebec through the wilds of Maine, with B. Arnold, Oct. 11, 1775, from the book by Kenneth Roberts, _March to Quebec_: (Their birch bark canoe had been scraped all along the side by a snag, ripping a gash almost the entire length right under the gunwale.) "When we had examined the broken canoe, and had rummaged both, for some means of repairing it, every heart seemed dismayed. Our birch bark and pitch had been exhausted in former repairs,...." "Getchel alone was really sedate and reflective. He ordered the other guide to search for birch bark, whilst he would look among the pines for turpintine. We followed the one or the other of these worthies, according to inclination, and soon returned with the desired materials. The cedar root was in plenty under our feet. Now a difficulty occurred, which had been unforseen, and which seemed destructive of all hope. This was the want of fat or oil of every kind, with which to make the turpintine into pitch. A lucky thought occurred to the youngest of the company, that the pork bag lay empty and neglected in one of the canoes. The thought and act of bringing it were instantaneous. The bag was ripped, and as if it had been so much gold dust, we scraped from it about a pint of dirty fat. Getchel now prepared an abundance of pitch. The cedar root gave us twine. The canoe was brought to the fire. We found every rib except a few at the extreme points, actually torn from the gunwale. All hands set to work-- two hours afterward, the coanoe was borne to the water." They went barely 500 yards before the bottom of the canoe was punctured by another snag, and they returned to the fire for a second repair. In putting the canoe into the water, yet again, they got one end into the water, one end still up on the elevated bank, when: "Mr Boyd's feet slipped-- the canoe fell from his hands-- its own weight falling upon the cavity formed by the declivity of the bank and the water-- broke it in the centre into two pieces, which were held together by nothing but the gunwale." "The canoe was brought to the fire, and placed in a proper posture for the operation. The lacerated parts were neatly brought together, and sewed with cedar root. A large ridge of pitch, as is customary in the construction of this kind of water craft, was laid over the seam to make it water tight. Over the seam a patch of strong bark a foot in width and of a length sufficient to encircle the bottom, even to the gunwales, was sewed down at the edges and pitched. Again over the whole of the work it was thought prudent to place our pork bag, which was saturated with liquid fat. It was a full yard wide, and was laid down in the same manner. This work, which was laborious, nearly consumed the rest of the day." The patch held, they made it back to the army. Bob ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Awl-for-All Date: 31 Jul 2000 16:01:48 EDT Matt, I have used this little gem of mine for a number of different projects. From making wallets to bullet pouches and moccassins. I even made a leather hunting shirt for one of my wife's teddy bears that we dressed up as a mountain man.( she's in a collecters club and she even makes her own miniatures. We made one of those too, it was all of 3.5" tall! She's great, she even knitted wool touques for them to wear!) Sorry, I got side-tracked. We gave one to my best friend for his birthday last year, and he sewed up an elk hide case for his flinter. It just works great, even if its not period correct. Wade "Sleeps Loudly" Smith Boise, ID ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wild Cherry sap... Date: 31 Jul 2000 16:52:22 EDT In a message dated 7/31/00 9:01:49 AM, Wfoster@cw2.com writes: << I met John Strunk at a shoot in the Porky Pine Hills west of Cardston, Canada. We just finished up a week of bow camp on Clark Bottom. I opened up the Institute of Crow Bows Lodge. >> Hi Walt, I just talked to J. Strunk at the North American Long Bow Safari in Brownsville, OR not long ago....know him rather well. I have one of his cherry barked yew longbows that is a work of art. He lives not far from me... I've been flying in and out of Billings all last month, and have been meaning to track you down.... I think you mentioned something about working at the museum there (by the airport?). I'm camping in Helena every Thursday afternoon if you get over that way. You have a computer in yer lodge? Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap... Date: 31 Jul 2000 17:18:01 EDT In a message dated 7/31/00 9:30:55 AM, bspen@aye.net writes: << Getchel alone was really sedate and reflective. He ordered the other guide to search for birch bark, whilst he would look among the pines for turpintine. >> Great story! So.....Let me get this straight...the pine pitch is the "turpintine", add some animal fat, in this case pork fat, heat, and you have a good, waterproof glue! I'll try it... Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Spencer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: pitch was Wild Cherry sap... Date: 31 Jul 2000 18:30:16 -0400 >Great story! So.....Let me get this straight...the pine pitch is the >"turpintine", add some animal fat, in this case pork fat, heat, and you have >a good, waterproof glue! >I'll try it... Sure, go ahead, but if you sink, blame Henry, not me. You are right about the turpentine. One of Webster's definitions is the 'gummy secretion of certain conifers'. Bob Bob Spencer Louisville, KY http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: What to do with the pretty thang? Date: 30 Jul 2000 09:40:34 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BFFA0A.35A3AFC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Maybe this one is to obvious and I should not bother, but there is = usually a fair market for brands like T/C. You could sell it as is to = someone who would think you are an idiot for getting rid of a good = shooting rifle just because it is too pretty. Then go buy something = that works better for you. this idea works with horses. WY ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BFFA0A.35A3AFC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Maybe this one is to obvious and I = should not=20 bother, but there is usually a fair market for brands like T/C.  = You could=20 sell it as is to someone who would think you are an idiot for getting = rid of a=20 good shooting rifle just because it is too pretty.  Then go buy = something=20 that works better for you.  this idea works with = horses.
 
WY
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BFFA0A.35A3AFC0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Wild Cherry sap... Date: 31 Jul 2000 21:57:08 -0600 Yellowstone Canoe Camp On the Lewis & Clark Trail Park City, Montana I've been flying in and out of Billings all last month, and have been meaning to track you down.... I think you mentioned something about working at the museum there (by the airport?). I'm camping in Helena every Thursday afternoon if you get over that way. You have a computer in yer lodge? Ymos, Magpie Hi Magpie, It seems I have been volunteering a lot of time at the County museum at the airport in Billings over the last couple of years. Some good ML stuff to be seen there. The director knows me well enough to reach me but you could call 406.633.2497. We could make arrangements and show you around some. I am due to go to Helena soon but only the Lord knows when maybe September. With the VA and all who knows. Give me a call the next time you are headed for Billings. I prefer to call it my electric smoke signal. The way I use pine pitch is to mix equal parts of resin, charcoal and beeswax. Low heat on the resin. When melted add some of the charcoal and some beeswax while stirring with a stick. Keep adding. Use a stick to pick up the mastic material. When you need it apply heat from a candle until it bubbles then. Touch what you are trying to stick together similar to the way you use a hot melt glue stick. We use bull pine or limber pine from around here. A little goes a long ways. Walt Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html