From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: WAS Reenactments in NC NOW Sights to take in while there!!! Date: 01 Jun 2001 22:29:41 EDT Jennifer, You are correct that there was the raid (not the only) on the Watauga fort, but the event at Rocky Mt. is called the Raid on the Watauga. I used to go to the fort at Sycamore Shoals and take the trail towards the river on the far left of the fort where I found a little rock spit that jutted out into the river. I would go and sit there and just watch and listen to the river go by and see what it had to say. They still do the drama there in the summer!!!! Also, something worth seeng if you have not before!!! Also, if anyone else is in the area from a distance, it is worth the trip to go to Roan Mtn. and hike to the top of the bald for the view. If you attend Rocky Mt. we will have to rally up and take ourselves and our respective compadres down near the university at the bottom of the hill below the tree streets and hit Poor Richard's tavern for the good grub!!! (Also, understand some of our friend from south of the border have opened up a fine eatery situated just on the left of the right fork of North Roan Street as it splits. El Matadore - authentic eats) And I will, of course, have to hike back to thetop of Buffalo Mtn. to see the overlook of the city. (That got a little dangerous fora while b/c of varioous underhanded types gatheing there for any variety of reasons but I understand it is well patrolled now) And go back thru Erwin and visit Beauty Spot to watch the sun go down and see the three nearby cities "float" in the night!!! Anyone reading this, the sights mentioned are worth the effort to take in. Each one, in its own way, sparks that part of us that longs to be a mtn. man or longhunter or explorer to burn a little more brightly. Till Rocky Mt! -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sash Date: 02 Jun 2001 07:56:40 -0700 Hello the Camp, On the cover of Muzzeloader Magazine is a Long Hunter wearing a Sash, Does anyone know where to get one like it? YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sash Date: 02 Jun 2001 10:28:12 -0500 I had very good results with getting some weaving done by someone on my lu=onghunter list. Work was very well done, reasonably priced, and delivered quickly. Her web page is http://community-2.webtv.net/fingerweaver/indian/ email is fingerweaver@webtv.net Todd/MO "Ole B. Jensen" wrote: > Hello the Camp, > On the cover of Muzzeloader Magazine is a Long Hunter wearing a Sash, Does > anyone know where to get one like it? > YMOS > Ole # 718 > ---------- > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sash Date: 02 Jun 2001 14:12:46 EDT Contact CJ Wilde of Wilde Weavery. IMHO she does some of the most beautiful work on blankets, sashes, wescots, etc. Her contact info is: Wilde Weavery & Trading Co. 602 East 3rd Street Lee's Summit, Missouri 64063 phone (816) 524-7374 fax (816) 246-1206 Her e-mail is www.wildeweavery.com Hope this lead is of value, Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Victoria Pate Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sash Date: 02 Jun 2001 15:16:51 -0500 On Sat, 2 Jun 2001 14:12:46 EDT LivingInThePast@aol.com writes: > Contact CJ Wilde of Wilde Weavery. IMHO she does some of the most > beautiful work on blankets, sashes, wescots, etc. Not only is CJ an artist, she is kindly and gracious. Victoria ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: todd glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sash Date: 02 Jun 2001 19:05:24 -0400 (EDT) Ole, Try Wilde Weavery.Do a search on that and call me if you don't fing it. Todd ------Original Message------ Sent: June 2, 2001 3:28:12 PM GMT I had very good results with getting some weaving done by someone on my lu=onghunter list. Work was very well done, reasonably priced, and delivered quickly. Her web page is http://community-2.webtv.net/fingerweaver/indian/ email is fingerweaver@webtv.net Todd/MO "Ole B. Jensen" wrote: > Hello the Camp, > On the cover of Muzzeloader Magazine is a Long Hunter wearing a Sash, Does > anyone know where to get one like it? > YMOS > Ole # 718 > ---------- > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Mules Date: 03 Jun 2001 15:04:26 -0600 Walt, My mule is about 14.1 hands and 750 lbs but she is still growing. Like most modern horses she will likely be to big to be a typical horse of the fur trade. I have read that some believe that as much as one third the beast of burden in the fur trade were mules. They are not much for bursts of speed but they have advantages. They can live on less quantity and quality feed, can carry more wieght and have tough hard hooves. According to Catlin among the Comanche a mule was prized higher than a buffalo horse. Maybe one of the old timers like Buck or the Capt can tell us if they taste better than a horse, I have never tried either. Wynn Ormond . . ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Horse Plains Date: 03 Jun 2001 15:07:22 -0600 Can some tell me in more modern terms where the Horse Plains boundaries are? Wynn ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules Date: 03 Jun 2001 20:40:08 EDT --part1_105.454810b.284c32e8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wynn Ya forgot to mention they kick harder and aim better then horses and have a much better signing voice. This is going to be fun. See ya on the trail Crazy Cyot --part1_105.454810b.284c32e8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wynn

Ya forgot to mention they kick harder and aim better then horses and have a
much better signing voice.
This is going to be fun.
See ya on the trail
Crazy Cyot


--part1_105.454810b.284c32e8_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules Date: 03 Jun 2001 20:21:22 -0700 Ya forgot to mention they kick harder and aim better then horses and have a much better signing voice. This is going to be fun. See ya on the trail Crazy Cyot Yeah ! My oldest son worked as farrier for a while. He says all mule critters should be named "Ninja". Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules Date: 04 Jun 2001 02:14:38

You boys that are gettin' kicked by them mules, just havn't learned to talk to them right!

I belive that Dick Patton wrote in his B.O.B article, that half of the non-indian equines in the mountains were mules. Even the indians were using mules early on.

 

Cliff


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---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules Date: 03 Jun 2001 21:52:20 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C0EC77.76F4EC40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I hate mules. no one should ride something that intelligent and = brutally vindictive. the worst fall off an equine, I should say "space = launch" was from one of those critters. Tom P.S. I don't know for sure, but I think she kicked me a couple of times = before the ground hit me. =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: GazeingCyot@cs.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 6:40 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules Wynn=20 Ya forgot to mention they kick harder and aim better then horses and = have a=20 much better signing voice.=20 This is going to be fun.=20 See ya on the trail=20 Crazy Cyot=20 ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C0EC77.76F4EC40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I hate mules.  no one should ride = something=20 that intelligent and brutally vindictive.  the worst fall off an = equine, I=20 should say "space launch" was from one of those critters.
Tom
P.S. I don't know for sure, but I = think she=20 kicked me a couple of times before the ground hit = me.  
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 GazeingCyot@cs.com
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com =
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 = 6:40 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = Mules

Wynn =


Ya forgot to mention they kick harder = and aim better=20 then horses and have a
much better signing voice.
This is = going to be=20 fun.
See ya on the trail
Crazy Cyot


------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C0EC77.76F4EC40-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules Date: 04 Jun 2001 02:26:39 EDT --part1_fb.14dc423f.284c841f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cliff Have you read Farris? This is what he had to say about them. Patience and forbearance, if you are blessed with those amiable qualities, will now be tested to the uttermost, supposing you to be honored with the charge of two or more of those mongrel brutes with shrill voices and long ears. Few exist but will strive to do you an injury by some infernal cantrap or other. Sounds to me to be a fair warning from one of the boys from back then that had to deal with them on a daily bases. Good luck Wynn and don't let down your guard for a minute. Crazy Cyot --part1_fb.14dc423f.284c841f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cliff
Have you read Farris? This is what he had to say about them.
Patience and forbearance, if you are blessed with those amiable qualities,
will now be tested to the uttermost, supposing you to be honored with the
charge of two or more of those mongrel brutes with shrill voices and long
ears. Few exist but will strive to do you an injury by some infernal cantrap
or other.

Sounds to me to be a fair warning from one of the boys from back then that
had to deal with them on a daily bases.
Good luck Wynn and don't let down your guard for a minute.
Crazy Cyot  

--part1_fb.14dc423f.284c841f_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules Date: 04 Jun 2001 15:24:29 -0700 Cliff wrote : You boys that are gettin' kicked by them mules, just havn't learned to talk to them right! Cliff, I thought this discussion would rattle your chain. An oldtime cowboy once told me, "Most horses and mules come in this world lookin for a way out. The difference is mules are lookin to take somebody with them." Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules Date: 04 Jun 2001 22:33:50

I see that there is no reasoning with you mule haters....<G>   Etienne Provost rode a mule, could have been his excessive weight, or maybe a good amount of mountain savy. Osborne Russell mentions mounting his "favorite mule."  I aint saying their better, just that a good one is hard to beat.  I own three, that I have been using regular for a long while, and I ain't been kicked nor thrown, by any of them. I figure things were much the same, then as now. If I was gonna buy a whole damn outfit of mules to pack trade plunder to the rockies, I would be taking what I could get. When you buy a remuda, you get some good and some bad. Good mules don't come cheap, most folks get that kicker, when they buy that bargain mule.  Most folks want to ride a mule like a horse, and it just won't work.   Treat a mule like your partner, instead of dominating him, and he'll treat you well.  Now sure as the world, when I feed in the morning, I'll get kicked square in the head and die, and ya'll can say "I told you so."

C


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---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules Date: 04 Jun 2001 21:06:12 -0700 Cliff wrote : I see that there is no reasoning with you mule haters.... >>Now Bubba, I never said I hated mules. Matter-of-fact, I think your mules are real well behaved critters. I have another Brother who has a couple of good, well behaved mules. I kinda like mules. Wouldn't mind riddin one at all. but the fact is, they're smarter than most people and that is a bit of a scary thing. Especially when you consider, what this bunch does for fun ain't exactly what is considered NORMAL. When you think about what Russell and those guys did with a herd of green broke, at best, stock was amazing. Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules Date: 05 Jun 2001 02:07:07

Larry,

My mules and I thank you for them kind words!!  Come up and ride with us this fall...

C


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---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Wake up!!! Date: 04 Jun 2001 20:10:24 -0700 Hello th Camp, Lets talk about the Dutch Oven that Sublett took to Rendezvous and made Lasagna in and stured it with his Short Start, OK? YMOS Ole # 718 Ps, Festus rode a mule didn't he? Any one out there? ---------- >From: "larry pendleton" >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules >Date: Mon, Jun 4, 2001, 3:24 PM > >Cliff wrote : >You boys that are gettin' kicked by them mules, just havn't learned to talk >to them right! > >Cliff, > I thought this discussion would rattle your chain. An oldtime cowboy >once told me, "Most horses and mules come in this world lookin for a way >out. The difference is mules are lookin to take somebody with them." >Pendleton > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "pat broehl" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Wake up!!! Date: 04 Jun 2001 19:20:14 -0700 >From: "Ole B. Jensen" >Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 20:10:24 -0700 > >Hello th Camp, >Lets talk about the Dutch Oven that Sublett took >Ps, Festus rode a mule >didn't he? Greetings, that got me interested in Bill's bucket of lasagna. How does that story go, Ole? a curious reader Itsaquain _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: More on Mules Date: 04 Jun 2001 22:22:17 EDT Cantankerous as they may be, they will actally think about some situations. A horse gets its foot caught in some old wire and it will pull till it severely lacerates itself...the mule picks its foot up in several directions till it finds the way out. A horse spooks and will run it and you through a barbed wire fence...a mule may, but I haven't met one that has yet. AND, there has to be a reason the Park service chooses to let folks with absolutely NO riding experience ride mules down to the bottom of steep canyons rather than horses (last time I was at the South Rim of THE canyon.) In the middle east centuries ago, mules were preferred by some cultures used as war mounts. Also, they are pretty good at keeping the coyotes out of the goats, sheep and calves. And they bite REALLY hard then grin about it. For what it is worth.... ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Wake up!!! Date: 04 Jun 2001 21:27:50 -0600 Please Ole, if you're gonna wake everyone up at least use proper period terms....LEVE! LEVE! (or something like that) :o} "Teton" Todd D. Glover http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Wake up!!! Date: 05 Jun 2001 00:10:29 EDT --part1_68.facc6a2.284db5b5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Talking about mules how have ya been Ole. (BG) I've been off the list for a couple of months now and the first thing I post I get people all stirred up. Must mean ya all missed me or something. It's good to be back, I think! Crazy Cyot --part1_68.facc6a2.284db5b5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Talking about mules how have ya been Ole. (BG) I've been off the list for a
couple of months now and the first thing I post I get people all stirred up.
Must mean ya all missed me or something. It's good to be back, I think!
Crazy Cyot --part1_68.facc6a2.284db5b5_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More on Mules Date: 05 Jun 2001 00:46:54 EDT --part1_10f.bf0829.284dbe3e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/5/01 2:23:00 AM !!!First Boot!!!, HikingOnThru@cs.com writes: > Also, they are pretty good at keeping the coyotes out of the > goats, sheep and calves. One more reason for me not to like them. To tell the truth this child ain't had much to do with them critters never had the need nor the want for one. There voices are to much like finger nails on a chock board for me to want to spend much time around one. My ponies have served me well and I haven't had one of them run me through a fence yet. Cores I know when it's time to get off too. If a horse spooks to much its time to make meat. Spooky Horses and mountains don't go to gather. Cliff I'm sure mules are like horses there are bad ones and there are some good ones. Keep the good ones and make meat out of the bad ones is what I say. See ya on the trail Crazy Cyot --part1_10f.bf0829.284dbe3e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/5/01 2:23:00 AM !!!First Boot!!!, HikingOnThru@cs.com
writes:


Also, they are pretty good at keeping the coyotes out of the
goats, sheep and calves.  
One more reason for me not to like them.
To tell the truth this child ain't had much to do with them critters never
had the need nor the want for one. There voices are to much like finger nails
on a chock board for me to want to spend much time around one.
My ponies have served me well and I haven't had one of them run me through a
fence yet. Cores I know when it's time to get off too. If a horse spooks to
much its time to make meat. Spooky Horses and mountains don't go to gather.
Cliff
I'm sure mules are like horses there are bad ones and there are some good
ones.
Keep the good ones and make meat out of the bad ones is what I say.
See ya on the trail
Crazy Cyot --part1_10f.bf0829.284dbe3e_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More on Mules Date: 05 Jun 2001 07:46:46 EDT --part1_107.d54db2.284e20a6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mule: A half ass horse Hope to find a good one on my budget. "Fat Chance" Joe --part1_107.d54db2.284e20a6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mule: A half ass horse

Hope to find a good one on my budget.  "Fat Chance"

                               Joe --part1_107.d54db2.284e20a6_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More on Mules Date: 05 Jun 2001 11:54:13
>I'm sure mules are like horses there are bad ones and there are some good
>ones.
>Keep the good ones and make meat out of the bad ones is what I say.
>See ya on the trail
>Crazy Cyot
Crazy,
I couldn't agree with you more!! See you in Idaho.
Cliff

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---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Wake up!!! Date: 05 Jun 2001 07:33:13 -0700 > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3074571193_47456_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Crazy, When are you going to bring youre better half, she's a lot easier on the eyes. It's time for you to get out more I haven't had anyone to banter with for a while. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- Talking about mules how have ya been Ole. (BG) I've been off the list for a couple of months now and the first thing I post I get people all stirred up. Must mean ya all missed me or something. It's good to be back, I think! Crazy Cyot --MS_Mac_OE_3074571193_47456_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: MtMan-List: Re: Wake up!!! Crazy,
When are you going to bring youre better half, she's a lot easier on the ey= es. It's time for you to get out more I haven't had anyone to banter with fo= r a while.
YMOS
Ole # 718
----------


Talking about mules how have ya been Ole. (BG) I= 've been off the list for a
couple of months now and the first thing I post I get people all stirred up= .
Must mean ya all missed me or something. It's good to be back, I think! Crazy Cyot
--MS_Mac_OE_3074571193_47456_MIME_Part-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Wake up!!! Date: 05 Jun 2001 07:37:07 -0700 Todd, Good point, there is no counting for taste. You should see the land, words can't do it justice. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: Todd Glover >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Wake up!!! >Date: Mon, Jun 4, 2001, 8:27 PM > >Please Ole, if you're gonna wake everyone up at least use proper period >terms....LEVE! LEVE! (or something like that) :o} > >"Teton" Todd D. Glover >http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: m mitchell Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #810 Date: 05 Jun 2001 07:48:33 -0700 (PDT) I wear sashes most of the time in my reenacting as a Habitant/Milicien du Nouvelle France , English Regime NWCo or American AFCo Voyageur, and 1812 Voyageur Militiaman personas. I can attest to the Quality and reasonable Price offered by "Fingerweaver". I have 2 of her sashes and some leg ties also (And plan to get more as time goes on). She uses Some Beautiful Yarn from a source in Canada, and practices the technique commonly refered to as "Osage" or "Indian Finger Weaving". I know of another lady, who's work is historically unsurpassed, she spins and double spins her yarns by hand and uses the L'Assomption "Changement" (pronounced "Shahnj-mahn")Technique, characteristic of the sashes bearing that name. Contact off list for info on her if interested. Michael Reply to: Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 07:56:40 -0700 > From: "Ole B. Jensen" > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sash > > Hello the Camp, > On the cover of Muzzeloader Magazine is a Long > Hunter wearing a Sash, Does > anyone know where to get one like it? > YMOS > Ole # 718 > - ---------- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Wake up!!! Date: 05 Jun 2001 10:28:08 -0600 > Hello th Camp, > Lets talk about the Dutch Oven that Sublett took to Rendezvous and made > Lasagna in and stured it with his Short Start, OK? > YMOS > Ole # 718 Hey Ole, how is the contracting business? Come on over to the Fort Union 19th Annual Rendezvous. Maybe you might get a better understanding of the use of cast iron during the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade. I am usually up before sunrise. How about yourself? Walt ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Wake up!!! Date: 05 Jun 2001 15:43:00 -0700 Ole wrote : Lets talk about the Dutch Oven that Sublett took to Rendezvous and made Lasagna in and stured it with his Short Start, OK? Ole, I thought it was Bridger who took the Dutch Oven, and sometimes he fed his dog out of it. Wonder if he tied the lid to his saddle horn with "artificial sinew" ? Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Wake up!!! Date: 05 Jun 2001 16:44:15 -0400 "artificial sinew" LP.. You mean that atificial sinew ain't period correct!?!?! OH MY GOD!! D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Wake up!!! Date: 05 Jun 2001 18:57:21 -0400 you guys are SH _ _ disterbers !!!!!!!!!!! dutch ovens and fake sinue____ where's the wd40 and the bullet obturation Nuff Said--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Wake up!!! Date: 05 Jun 2001 17:47:46 -0700 Michael, And youre point is?. If it ain't fun we ain't doing it (Poisen River Party Motto) YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: hawknest4@juno.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Wake up!!! >Date: Tue, Jun 5, 2001, 3:57 PM > >you guys are SH _ _ disterbers !!!!!!!!!!! dutch ovens and fake sinue____ >where's the wd40 and the bullet obturation > >Nuff Said--- > > "HAWK" >Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) >854 Glenfield Dr. >Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 >E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: >http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce > >________________________________________________________________ >GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! >Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! >Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Wake up!!! Date: 05 Jun 2001 17:49:07 -0700 Larry, Yea, Yea I remember that, sorry for my mistake. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "larry pendleton" >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Wake up!!! >Date: Tue, Jun 5, 2001, 3:43 PM > >Ole wrote : > Lets talk about the Dutch Oven that Sublett took to Rendezvous and made >Lasagna in and stured it with his Short Start, OK? > > >Ole, > I thought it was Bridger who took the Dutch Oven, and sometimes he fed his >dog out of it. Wonder if he tied the lid to his saddle horn with >"artificial sinew" ? > >Pendleton > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Wake up!!! Date: 05 Jun 2001 17:50:11 -0700 Dennis, Yep! Ha ha. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "D. Miles" >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Wake up!!! >Date: Tue, Jun 5, 2001, 1:44 PM > > "artificial sinew" > >LP.. > You mean that atificial sinew ain't period correct!?!?! OH MY GOD!! >D > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Wake up!!! Date: 05 Jun 2001 17:51:50 -0700 Walt, Just yanking the chain, take notes. I have got too much on my plate now. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "Walt Foster" >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Wake up!!! >Date: Tue, Jun 5, 2001, 9:28 AM > > >> Hello th Camp, >> Lets talk about the Dutch Oven that Sublett took to Rendezvous and made >> Lasagna in and stured it with his Short Start, OK? >> YMOS >> Ole # 718 > >Hey Ole, how is the contracting business? Come on over to the Fort Union >19th Annual Rendezvous. Maybe you might get a better understanding of the >use of cast iron during the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade. I am usually up >before sunrise. How about yourself? >Walt > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Wake up!!! Date: 05 Jun 2001 20:41:20 -0700 Yea, Yea I remember that, sorry for my mistake. YMOS Ole # 718 >>Hey Ole, just funnin ya ! Like you, we gotta have some fun once in a while ! Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Wake up!!! Date: 05 Jun 2001 22:17:28 -0400 research fellows, it was velcro. > "artificial sinew" > > LP.. > You mean that atificial sinew ain't period correct!?!?! OH MY GOD!! > D > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: something more on mules Date: 05 Jun 2001 21:39:22 -0500 I have read with some (limited) interest the discussion on mules. One thing I have not seen is any comments on the apparent appeal that mule droppings have to some dogs. At a winter camp last January in Oklahoma there was a dog in camp that just couldn't resist fresh, hot, steaming mule muffins. She got so tuned in to the mules that when one would raise his tail Annie would stop what she was doing and rush over to the mule and chow down immediately. She ate mule dropping for three days but would ignore anything left by one of the horses. Any comments? Lanney Ratcliff ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: something more on mules Date: 05 Jun 2001 22:47:05 EDT In a message dated 6/5/01 10:36:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, amm1585@hyperusa.com writes: << She got so tuned in to the mules that when one would raise his tail Annie would stop what she was doing and rush over to the mule and chow down immediately. She ate mule dropping for three days but would ignore anything left by one of the horses. >> Maybe Annie was offering an ongoing dramatic commentary on the fare being otherwise offered? Someone should tell her about the "hunger strike" tactic. Seriously, I know some canines eat the stomachs of ead herbivores to get roughage that is already partially digested and palatable to their systems. IF the mules were passing grass that was not as digested as the horses (I.E. - high partially digested grass content in the droppings), then maybe Annie was makng the most of the "roughage" available. Course, it may taste like chateaubriand and we just don't know it!!!! -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Wake up!!! Date: 05 Jun 2001 22:12:15 -0400 On Tue, 05 Jun 2001 17:47:46 -0700 "Ole B. Jensen" writes: > Michael, > And youre point is?. If it ain't fun we ain't doing it (Poisen River > Party > Motto) > YMOS > Ole # 718 thats what its all about guys--- lest we forget--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: something more on mules Date: 05 Jun 2001 21:32:23 -0600 Lanney my man...I just finished one large bowl of popcorn and a couple Diet Cokes and ...BELLCCCHHHHH......that is one disgusting image that you brought to mind with all that talk of mule muffins and dogs and such. Hope I never live to see that! Don't know if I'd be able to keep the meat bag closed........ "Teton" Todd D. Glover http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "walter palmer" Subject: MtMan-List: used clothes Date: 06 Jun 2001 00:19:27 -0400 does anyone have used clothes for a 1830 free trapper ? this is a new life for me and i would like to start out easly . i have been watching e bay but no luck . thanks shirt = med pants = 34 waist 30 long shoe = 9 also any girls dress etc . longbutt@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "walter palmer" Subject: MtMan-List: used clothes Date: 06 Jun 2001 00:20:08 -0400 does anyone have used clothes for a 1830 free trapper ? this is a new life for me and i would like to start out easly . i have been watching e bay but no luck . thanks shirt = med pants = 34 waist 30 long shoe = 9 also any girls dress etc . longbutt@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: used clothes Date: 06 Jun 2001 11:53:45 -0400 Check at a local Vous if no luck on the Lists. Many of the sutlers have used clothing for sale at reasonable prices. Ad Miller Alderson, WV ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "atthesea" Subject: MtMan-List: Tioga Mountain Man Rondy Date: 06 Jun 2001 11:59:23 -0700 This notice serves to invite you all to our Summer Rondy to be held Aug 3-4-5 at the Historic Mast Ranch, east of Coquille, Oregon which is in the Coos Bay neighborhood of SW Oregon. We are not a juried event so all are welcome to come and participate. I invite you to visit Mountain Man Ken's Trade Blanket site to see a map to direct you to the Rondy: www.harborside.com/~psjogren/mn.html Best regards to all Ghostrider aka John Barber Coos Bay, Oregon ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: used clothes Date: 06 Jun 2001 18:25:02 EDT --part1_bc.159d2096.285007be_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Where are you from. Maybe some of use could contact you off line. Most aren't to hard to find. Joe --part1_bc.159d2096.285007be_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Where are you from.  Maybe some of use could contact you off line.  Most
aren't to hard to find.  

                                    Joe --part1_bc.159d2096.285007be_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Douglas Hepner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: something more on mules Date: 06 Jun 2001 19:16:09 -0500 My ignorent dog won't eat horse sneeres but prefurs to rub all over in it till it has covered just about every inch of his body. I don't know why. Your Most exhausted Servant Douglas Hepner ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 9:39 PM > I have read with some (limited) interest the discussion on mules. One thing > I have not seen is any comments on the apparent appeal that mule droppings > have to some dogs. At a winter camp last January in Oklahoma there was a > dog in camp that just couldn't resist fresh, hot, steaming mule muffins. > She got so tuned in to the mules that when one would raise his tail Annie > would stop what she was doing and rush over to the mule and chow down > immediately. She ate mule dropping for three days but would ignore anything > left by one of the horses. > Any comments? > Lanney Ratcliff > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Wake up!!! Date: 06 Jun 2001 20:06:07 -0600 Any of you going to Fort Union next week. Great agenda. Good place to ask questions. Walt ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tim Jewell" Subject: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Date: 06 Jun 2001 22:47:35 -0400 Hello the list, I've been hard at work getting a correct outfit together for late 1830's trapper. My next project is a shovel or other correct digging implement and as usual I have a couple of questions. First, are there any period accounts of a trappers using/carrying shovels? I've seen accounts of digging caches and such but I haven't seen any reference to what they dug with. Second, since I will still need something for the drop and parks, does anybody have a description or a picture of a period shovel or whatever they used? Thanks, Tim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred Subject: MtMan-List: Book: Textiles for Clothing in the New Republic Date: 06 Jun 2001 20:49:01 -0600 This is the book to take to the fabric store with you! A short write-up on the documentation for about thirty different textiles, with swatches glued in so you don't have to guess. A real expert, familiar with the antique textiles, went fabric shopping for the modern equivalents. Textiles covered are: block prints, copperplate prints, cylinder prints, homespun wool, silk, cotton check, flax, baize, calico, cambric, cassimere (kerseymere), chambray, changeable/shot silk, corduroy, denim, frocking, gingham, gros de Naples, jean, linsey-woolsey, lustring, marsilles, merino, crepe wool, silk organdy, muslin, nankeen, pongee silk, sarsnet, satin, and velvet. Textiles for Clothing in the New Republic, 1800-1850: A Workbook of Swatches and Information, by Lynne Z. Bassett $34.95 U.S. Available from: http://www.sallyqueenassociates.com/ This book is hot off the presses--get yours now, because once it's out of print, you might have a looong wait ahead of you. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Date: 06 Jun 2001 23:20:34 EDT Tim, Although this is not a direct ref to the RMFT, in looking at the Joseph Smith Key To The Various Sheffield Manufactories (1816), illus. 980-1003, there were a number of spades/shovels being made. Most (but not all) of them have a square cornered blade. They have either a simple 'T' handle, or in most cases a 'D', as commonly seen today. In contrast to the items made today, these appear to have hand-wrought blades and hand-shaped handles. There are a couple of shovel-nosed spades shown as well, and they are very full at the sides, giving the appearance of almost a heart shape. If you'd like a photocopy of the pages, let me know. Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thomas Ballstaedt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Date: 06 Jun 2001 21:26:38 -0600 Hi Tim; I think shovels were so common place, that no one bothered to mention them. after all, what else would one dig a cash with? if you had to dig it with your fingernails or your frying pan wouldn't such an arduous task be mentioned in your journal? I believe shovels were carried and were/are, just as necessary as was a good felling ax. Keep in mind a large brigade might only need a couple. I use, like many of my compadres, a smaller Swiss army surplus shovel, that looks remarkable close to the hand forged originals. It's small enough to stow in a pannier or a car trunk. the handle shank is riveted to the blade rather than welded. I picked mine up at a local army navy store for about 10.00 or so. Tom ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 8:47 PM > Hello the list, > > I've been hard at work getting a correct outfit together for late 1830's > trapper. My next project is a shovel or other correct digging implement and > as usual I have a couple of questions. First, are there any period accounts > of a trappers using/carrying shovels? I've seen accounts of digging caches > and such but I haven't seen any reference to what they dug with. Second, > since I will still need something for the drop and parks, does anybody have > a description or a picture of a period shovel or whatever they used? > > Thanks, > Tim > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Wake up!!! Date: 06 Jun 2001 21:51:18 -0600 > Walt, > Just yanking the chain, take notes. I have got too much on my plate now. > YMOS > Ole # 718 What do you want me take notes about Ole. The cast iron foundry at Fort Union? Walt ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Date: 06 Jun 2001 21:50:44 -0700 Tim, Get ahold of a copy of Rex Allen Norman's 1837 sketchbook of the western fur trade. In it is a sketch of the shovel that he believes was used. You can get a close copy of the blade end by getting a WWI or II European military shovel through some of the surplus stores. Try Cheaper than Dirt. The sketch book will also show you proper dress and other gear. Basically what you don't see you shouldn't have. Good luck on your journey. Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, June 06, 2001 7:47 PM > Hello the list, > > I've been hard at work getting a correct outfit together for late 1830's > trapper. My next project is a shovel or other correct digging implement and > as usual I have a couple of questions. First, are there any period accounts > of a trappers using/carrying shovels? I've seen accounts of digging caches > and such but I haven't seen any reference to what they dug with. Second, > since I will still need something for the drop and parks, does anybody have > a description or a picture of a period shovel or whatever they used? > > Thanks, > Tim > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: MtMan-List: dung eat`in dogs Date: 07 Jun 2001 08:47:54 -0400 Having hunting dogs on and off for most of my 57 yrs. a dog that eats dung is a sign of the dog not being worth having. Most I`ve seen aren`t worth the time to care for them. A big embarrassment for the unfortunate owner. Here in the north they were usually shot. No good to hunt or for pets. Now that I found this wonderful tidbit of info we will no longer have to shoot them. We can trade them to mule owners as stall cleaners. As for a scientific reason, I don`t know, but maybe someone will. What part of the country has the most mules? John (BIG JOHN) Hunt longhunter mountainman Southwest, Ohio ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Date: 07 Jun 2001 09:22:40 EDT --part1_98.15f04eed.2850da20_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When I was in the Rockys, I heard several stories of how shovels were carved out of wood in the winter when it was to cold to do anything else, then they became trade items. Joe --part1_98.15f04eed.2850da20_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When I was in the Rockys, I heard several stories of how shovels were carved
out of wood in the winter when it was to cold to do anything else, then they
became trade items.

                                          Joe --part1_98.15f04eed.2850da20_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Lindberg Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Date: 07 Jun 2001 08:44:09 -0500 I got a British WWI shovel with wooden t handle from Sportsman Guide for around $15, luckily I got the plain wooden handle and not the od green one. Jim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Date: 07 Jun 2001 10:07:04 -0400 Arrowhead Forge makes a good, peroid shovel. D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Date: 07 Jun 2001 10:08:12 EDT In a message dated 6/7/1 7:45:24 AM, jal@cray.com writes: <> I have a US version of the same entrenching tool. I used it to shovel dirt into John Johnston's grave when we buried him. Are we saying now that this is an acceptable pattern for the fur trade period? It sure is handy in camp. Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Date: 07 Jun 2001 10:09:35 -0400 Are we saying now that this is an acceptable pattern for the fur trade period? >>Not in my camp. D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Henry B. Crawford" Subject: MtMan-List: Lewis and Clark material culture info wanted Date: 07 Jun 2001 09:12:55 -0500 Friends and foes, I am posting this message below for a museum colleague. I told her that this was the place for answers. I will be at Colonial Williamsburg starting tomorrow till the 16th for the ALHFAM conference (Living history museums) so I won't see any answers 'till I get back. I hope I have lots of replies to read. You can reply directly to her, too. See you down the trail. Cheers, HBC >Hello Everyone! We are in need of some information and sources for blankets, coats and buckets for 1800-1803ish (yes this is Lewis and Clark). Does anyone know what color and size the military blankets are at this time? Were the outer coats (watch coats or Capote) a wool coat/cape or were they a capote/blanket coat? And what colors? We need a source for large (5 gallon) brass buckets for this time period too. Any ideas? Thank you for your help! I'll be in Williamsburg next week, so see many of you then. Janice Elvidge Education Specialist Fort Clatsop National Memorial 92343 Fort Clatsop Road Astoria, OR 97103 (503) 861-2471 ext. 221 Janice_Elvidge@nps.gov *********************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History Museum of Texas Tech University Box 43191 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 henry.b.crawford@ttu.edu 806/742-2442, ext 255 FAX 742-1136 Website: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ***Living History . . . Because It's There*** ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: MtMan-List: shovels Date: 07 Jun 2001 10:14:07 -0400 Doesn`t double edge forge make shovels ?? John (BIG JOHN) Hunt longhunter mountainman Southwest, Ohio ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shovels Date: 07 Jun 2001 10:17:30 -0400 " Doesn`t double edge forge make shovels ??" > John. Let me say this with all sincerity... $&*%^#()()%*()@#__*(*$(%U& NO!!!!!!!!! D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shovels Date: 07 Jun 2001 10:21:51 -0400 Allow me to expand on this.. Several years ago, I made a shovel for a "famous frontiersman" well, he was so taken with it that he showed his buddies, and they wanted a shovel just like (name deleted) So I built shovels for a damned month. Then said frontiersman offered to expose the shovel in a magazine so I could sell more.. He was threatened (promised) a slow, painful and ugly death if he did such or even mentioned my shop in the same breath as the shovel. I have not done a shovel since and I will not do a shovel again. Arrowhead Forge makes a nice one.. GO there. Want a knife or such, gimmee a holler. D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Knives and Iron Accouterments http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning." ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shovels Date: 07 Jun 2001 10:21:33 -0400 I guess a bark tanned scabard is out of the question too ? > " Doesn`t double edge forge make shovels ??" > > > > John. > Let me say this with all sincerity... > > $&*%^#()()%*()@#__*(*$(%U& NO!!!!!!!!! > > D > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shovels Date: 07 Jun 2001 10:23:52 -0400 F*** You, John Hunt. Don't you have something else to do? Love D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Hunt" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shovels Date: 07 Jun 2001 10:27:35 -0400 NO!!!!!!!!! just annoy you. > F*** You, John Hunt. > Don't you have something else to do? > > Love > D > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Date: 07 Jun 2001 08:09:13 -0700 > I have a US version of the same entrenching tool. I used it to shovel dirt > into John Johnston's grave when we buried him. Are we saying now that this > is an acceptable pattern for the fur trade period? It sure is handy in camp. > > Richard James Friends, I got to back off what I said yesterday about being able to see an example of this type of shovel by looking at Norman's Sketch Book. In response to Richard's post above and the other comments showing up this morning, I got the Sketch Book out to take another look at the shovel. It's not in Norman's Sketch Book. Look on page 133 of Book of Buckskinning Vol. VIII under "Trappers Tools" for an example of an early~mid 19th Century shovel. Other than the "T" handle, the military entrenching tool available from the aforementioned surplus outfits is a dead ringer. My camp mate Taos, has gone so far as to add a "T" handle to his shovel and I will as soon as I get a piece of metal to bend over the "T" and a ring to retain it made up. Right now all I did with mine was to remove the stock military wood handle which was too short anyway and replace it with a section of hickory or ash from another broken shovel handle. The shovel handle is retained by a ring that slips on towards the blade end or the "T" handle end to a tight slide fit along with a rivet through the ring and "tang's" of both metal parts to form a secure connection. It is a simple matter to knock the rivet out, and replace the original wood handle with one of a more proper and handy length. I found no great need for the replacement of the rivet so it is possible to knock the ring towards the blade and thus loosen the grip on the handle by those tangs. You can then remove or replace the handle in the field with whatever is handy. Hope this helps. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Date: 07 Jun 2001 13:05:00 EDT --part1_11a.29b0a.28510e3c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Capt. Lahti' and Tom are talk about is the one I use and for > the money can't be beat. I have two of them one I have left the short > handle on for horse trips when not using a pack horse. (it ties behind the > saddle nicely) the other I have put a longer T handle on. (for packing and > real digging) The ones from Arrow Forge are not as good from what I've seen of them. They have a tendency to bend at the blade. One of the members of our party had one and while digging Camas it dam near folded over on him. He has since replaced it with one of the Swiss Army Shovels. For a lot less money and they look just as good. my two cents. Crazy Cyot --part1_11a.29b0a.28510e3c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Shovel that
Capt. Lahti' and Tom are talk about is the one I use and for
the money can't be beat. I have two of them one I have left the short
handle on for horse trips when not using a pack horse. (it ties behind the
saddle nicely) the other I have put a longer T handle on. (for packing and
real digging)  


The ones from Arrow Forge are not as good from what I've seen of them. They
have a tendency to bend at the blade. One of the members of our party had one
and while digging Camas it dam near folded over on him. He has since replaced
it with one of the Swiss Army Shovels. For a lot less money and they look
just as good.
my two cents.
Crazy Cyot



--part1_11a.29b0a.28510e3c_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Date: 07 Jun 2001 14:31:47 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C0EF5E.94EB8080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Crazy Musta got a bad one... They are generally strong as hell.. I hope he = called and gave 'em what for... D ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C0EF5E.94EB8080 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Crazy
Musta got a bad one... They are = generally strong as=20 hell.. I hope he called and gave 'em what for...
D
  ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C0EF5E.94EB8080-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Date: 07 Jun 2001 17:20:58 EDT --part1_c5.11c4defd.28514a3a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dennis he may well have got a bad one. For all I know, but I sure was not impressed with it. Don't think he contacted them about it. He just beet it out and put it in the Museum display. Crazy --part1_c5.11c4defd.28514a3a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dennis he may well have got a bad one. For all I know, but I sure was not
impressed with it. Don't think he contacted them about it. He just beet it
out and put it in the Museum display.
Crazy --part1_c5.11c4defd.28514a3a_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "D. Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Date: 07 Jun 2001 17:59:48 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C0EF7B.A466F2C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Crazy I know several fellas that have Arrowhead shovels with out any = problem.. But, Murphy is luriking everywhere.. D ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C0EF7B.A466F2C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Crazy
 I know several fellas that have = Arrowhead=20 shovels with out any problem.. But, Murphy is luriking = everywhere..
D
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C0EF7B.A466F2C0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tim Jewell" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Date: 07 Jun 2001 18:18:48 -0400 >----- Original Message ----- >Subject: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Thanks for all the great input. I'm considering my options and just by chance I found a historic village near home that has a working blacksmith shop. I was told that the blacksmith there will make things in exchange for volunteer work at the village. Apperantly Dennis knows something about making shovels that this shop doesn't . Anyway, I'm going to check things out and decide from there. Thanks again for all your help, Tim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Date: 07 Jun 2001 17:52:19 -0500 Damn; I hate these questions. I've got a really nice old shovel I consid= er=20 one of my most prime camp tools, it is a great aid to my comfort. I'd=20 really hate to have to give it up. I have never had an argument with someone using one of the European=20 military surplus shovels as they are of a generally old style and well=20 made. I keep one in the truck. WWII American entrenching tools do not enjoy the same grace, there is=20 nothing old about them, they are also not nearly so useful or well made. Rex Norman has pictured (in BOB VIII) what I would suppose is a blacksmit= h=20 made shovel as it varies considerably from known commercial shovels of th= e=20 period. I have been digging around since this question came up and can find no=20 listings for shovels or spades in trade lists, supply lists, equipment=20 inventories or blacksmith journals of the period in the region. Lots of=20 iron was traded and transported so the making of shovels wasn't impossibl= e,=20 but, to date I haven't found any listings for same. I have found a fair=20 number of hoes listed. I have found one dictionary reference that half=20 suggests hoe is a synonym for shovel. Axes, knives, nails, rivets, files, needles, awls, broken gun locks, all=20 kinds of small things are accounted for; but no shovels or spades????? I have not read any accounts where someone mentioned specifically their=20 shovel. I have read of them digging for all kinds of reasons, just not=20 specifically with shovel or spade. I am not ready to begin speculation as to a hoe being more useful or easi= er=20 to helve, nor that the hoe references were actually to shovels as hoes we= re=20 well known and traded, and certainly I am not accepting that shovels were= =20 so common as to be unworthy of mention. I'm also not quite ready to leav= e=20 mine at home. I would be curious as to how many Clay has encountered in his deeper=20 digging into the records of places like Fort Hall? John... John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega Subject: MtMan-List: Shovels Date: 07 Jun 2001 17:14:16 -0700 (PDT) Search the MM&FT Site. Trade List of John Mcknight, 1822. There are 2 references to a "spade". This refers to a flat bladed shovel. They Were used. Some research into american tools prior to 1840 will yeild results on shovels commonly available to Americans in the west. Handle length is a matter of preference, but packing a shovel on a horse requires a relatively short handle. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shovels Date: 07 Jun 2001 19:54:37 -0500 Hmm, Last night when I ran the same search 3 times McKnight didn't show a hit; today it does. Nonetheless one listing does not common make. 2 shovels only on all the lists published on Dean's web site? Curious not definitive. I have done extensive research into American and European tools and cannot unequivocally state: "They were used." They were available without question in the East and in Europe. That proves nothing regarding use in the Rocky Mountains. I think they were used, logic suggests they were used, but not much evidence has yet been shown to prove they were much used in the Rocky Mountains prior to 1840. I would be interested in the research which has convinced you of commonality. I'd like to keep using my (short handled) old shovel. Note: a spade today commonly refers to a flat blade square point tool, not necessarily the case prior to 1840. Not all flat blade square point digging tools are even today referred to as spades. The 1828 dictionary defines as: "An instrument for digging, consisting of a broad palm with a handle." Random House more recently: "a tool for digging, having an iron blade adapted for pressing into the ground with the foot and a long handle commonly with a grip or crosspiece at the top, and with the blade usually narrower and flatter than that of a shovel." Joseph Smith groups both together as if terminology was locally determined. In 15 of 17 illustrations square point tools are depicted. John... At 05:14 PM 6/7/01 -0700, you wrote: >Search the MM&FT Site. Trade List of John Mcknight, >1822. There are 2 references to a "spade". >This refers to a flat bladed shovel. > >They Were used. > >Some research into american tools prior to 1840 will >yeild results on shovels commonly available to >Americans in the west. Handle length is a matter of >preference, but packing a shovel on a horse requires a > relatively short handle. Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kierst Family Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Date: 07 Jun 2001 21:15:13 -0700 >Hello the list, > >I've been hard at work getting a correct outfit together for late 1830's >trapper. My next project is a shovel or other correct digging implement and >as usual I have a couple of questions. First, are there any period accounts >of a trappers using/carrying shovels? I've seen accounts of digging caches >and such but I haven't seen any reference to what they dug with. Second, >since I will still need something for the drop and parks, does anybody have >a description or a picture of a period shovel or whatever they used? > >Thanks, >Tim > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html About your qestion wheather or not trappers carried/used shovels. Jacob Miller drew a picture of 2 trappers digging a cache. They're kinna hard to see, Miller was probly more interested in the view then the trappers. They're down in the left hand bottom corner. One of them has a pick ready to strike. If they had picks, how much you wanna bet they had shovels. Dirty Shirt ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gene Hickman" Subject: MtMan-List: [mlml] Segars Date: 07 Jun 2001 23:29:36 -0600 We recently had a discussion on one of the lists about the authenticity of cigars or segars. Red Dog (Mitch Post) was over tonight with a whole bunch of original newspapers from 1802-1804. They were mostly Boston papers with a few from Philadelphia. There numerous ads for segars and in very large quantities. They were listed as Spanish or Havana segars and in one instance it advertised copies of Havana segars as good as the original. Papers list "tons" of other interesting items for sale, i.e. fabrics, leather, shoes, hats, spices, food stuffs, liquors, wines, lumber, horses, houses, etc. Then there are the real estate ads, bankruapcies, legal notices, jobs, runaways, foriegn & domestic news, lots of poems, shipping notices, and other items of interest. Mitch will also have some of these papers for sale. He also has a few papers from 1840-1846 also. We are going through them as quickly as possible. You can contact Mitch off list at: hiparoo@yahoo.com. We'll retype a few interesting ones in the next few weeks. YMOS Ghosting Wolf ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shovels Date: 08 Jun 2001 01:31:26 EDT --part1_67.1530060a.2851bd2e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John This is just a thought, but sometimes what is mentioned as a lack of having at one time is as good saying it was there at other times when it should be mentioned. What I'm getting at in Ferris Life in the Rocky Mountains. He goes in to detail on how a Cache was made except for what tools were used to dig it. Beings the tools used were common? Yet later on he talks about having to dig a grave for Frasier who was killed by Black feet. In the afternoon we dug his grave with an axe and frying pan, the only implements we had that could be employed to advantage in this melancholy task. Wouldn't this suggest that the ax and fry pan were uncommon digging tools? I know if I had to dig a Cache with these tools I would write about it. Something to think about. Just some Crazy thoughts From the Cyot --part1_67.1530060a.2851bd2e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John
This is just a thought, but sometimes what is mentioned as a lack of having
at one time is as good saying it was there at other times when it should be
mentioned.

What I'm getting at in Ferris Life in the Rocky Mountains. He goes in to
detail on how a Cache was made except for what tools were used to dig it.
Beings the tools used were common? Yet later on he talks about having to dig
a grave for Frasier who was killed by Black feet.
In the afternoon we dug his grave with an axe and frying pan, the only
implements we had that could be employed to advantage in this melancholy task.
 Wouldn't this suggest that the ax and fry pan were uncommon digging tools?
I know if I had to dig a Cache with these tools I would write about it.
Something to think about.
Just some Crazy thoughts
From the Cyot --part1_67.1530060a.2851bd2e_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Victoria Pate Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Date: 08 Jun 2001 00:46:37 -0500 On Thu, 07 Jun 2001 17:52:19 -0500 John Kramer writes: > Damn; I hate these questions. > I have been digging around since this question came up and can find > no listings for shovels or spades in trade lists, supply lists, > equipment inventories or blacksmith journals of the period in the region. > Lots of iron was traded and transported so the making of shovels wasn't > impossible, but, to date I haven't found any listings for same. One of my favorite books on the Fur Trade Era is "This Reckless Breed of Men-The Trappers and Fur Traders of the Southwest" by Robert Glass Cleland. Here is an excerpt from pages 136-137 of the 1963 edition: "Many important merchant of New Orleans and the Atlantic coast consigned their shipments for the West and the Santa Fe trade to St. Louis houses such as Chouteau, Pratte & Company. Much of the goods came up the Mississippi from New Orleans or down the Ohio from Pittsburgh and Louisville. The cargoes, extraordinarily mixed and varied, included: .......files,.....spades,......shovels,.......scythes,...saws......." The reference for these items and others is from the bills of lading and receipts of Henry P. Chouteau in the A. Chouteau Collection, Missouri Historical Society MSS. Beins Chouteau was involved in the RMFT, is it reasonable to assume some of these shovels made it to Rendezvous? Victoria ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Funk" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Date: 08 Jun 2001 07:01:54 -0700 J.J.Astor's inventory of tools and blacksmithing equipment, 1812-1813 lists, among other items: "4 Spades, used 1.12 1/2 (@) 4.50" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Date: 08 Jun 2001 08:11:24 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01C0EFF2.9BBF3F20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Crazy, I lke my shovel from Arrowhead Forge. Too heavy to pack in without = a horse, however. Dave Conte makes a small shovel, an "entrencing tool" = really, that I bring along. Seen it? Don't know how "period" it is but = it is hand forged. Larry Huber ----- Original Message -----=20 From: GazeingCyot@cs.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 10:05 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels The Shovel that=20 Capt. Lahti' and Tom are talk about is the one I use and for=20 the money can't be beat. I have two of them one I have left the = short=20 handle on for horse trips when not using a pack horse. (it ties = behind the=20 saddle nicely) the other I have put a longer T handle on. (for = packing and=20 real digging) =20 The ones from Arrow Forge are not as good from what I've seen of them. = They=20 have a tendency to bend at the blade. One of the members of our party = had one=20 and while digging Camas it dam near folded over on him. He has since = replaced=20 it with one of the Swiss Army Shovels. For a lot less money and they = look=20 just as good.=20 my two cents.=20 Crazy Cyot=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0064_01C0EFF2.9BBF3F20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Crazy,
    I lke my shovel from = Arrowhead=20 Forge.  Too heavy to pack in without a horse, however.  Dave = Conte=20 makes a small shovel, an "entrencing tool" really, that I bring = along. =20 Seen it?  Don't know how "period" it is but it is hand = forged.
 
Larry Huber
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 GazeingCyot@cs.com
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com =
Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 = 10:05=20 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period = Shovels

The Shovel = that=20 Capt. Lahti' and Tom are talk about is the one I use and = for=20
the money can't be beat. I have two of them one I have left the = short=20
handle on for horse trips when not using a pack horse. (it ties = behind=20 the
saddle nicely) the other I have put a longer T handle on. = (for=20 packing and
real digging)  

The ones from Arrow=20 Forge are not as good from what I've seen of them. They
have a = tendency to=20 bend at the blade. One of the members of our party had one
and = while=20 digging Camas it dam near folded over on him. He has since replaced =
it=20 with one of the Swiss Army Shovels. For a lot less money and they look =
just as good.
my two cents.
Crazy Cyot



------=_NextPart_000_0064_01C0EFF2.9BBF3F20-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shovels Date: 08 Jun 2001 08:16:11 -0700 (PDT) --- John Kramer wrote: > > I have done extensive research into American and > European tools and cannot > unequivocally state: "They were used." They were > available without John Mcknight obviously found use for them. With the numerous references to caching goods, how do you propose one would do so without a shovel? > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shovels Date: 08 Jun 2001 10:28:22 -0500 Crazy, I would to but try as we may we don't live back then and few wrote of their exploits. My point is if shovels were common why don't we find them commonly listed? So far 6 have been identified by the contributors to this list, not much for 20 years of trapping furry gold. John... At 01:31 AM 6/8/01 -0400, you wrote: >John >This is just a thought, but sometimes what is mentioned as a lack of having >at one time is as good saying it was there at other times when it should be >mentioned. > >What I'm getting at in Ferris Life in the Rocky Mountains. He goes in to >detail on how a Cache was made except for what tools were used to dig it. >Beings the tools used were common? Yet later on he talks about having to dig >a grave for Frasier who was killed by Black feet. >In the afternoon we dug his grave with an axe and frying pan, the only >implements we had that could be employed to advantage in this melancholy >task. > Wouldn't this suggest that the ax and fry pan were uncommon digging tools? >I know if I had to dig a Cache with these tools I would write about it. >Something to think about. >Just some Crazy thoughts > From the Cyot Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Date: 08 Jun 2001 10:29:11 -0500 Where are the listings of inventories? John... At 12:46 AM 6/8/01 -0500, you wrote: >On Thu, 07 Jun 2001 17:52:19 -0500 John Kramer >writes: > > Damn; I hate these questions. > > > I have been digging around since this question came up and can find > > no listings for shovels or spades in trade lists, supply lists, > > equipment inventories or blacksmith journals of the period in the >region. > > Lots of iron was traded and transported so the making of shovels wasn= 't > > > impossible, but, to date I haven't found any listings for same. > > One of my favorite books on the Fur Trade Era is "This Reckless > Breed of Men-The Trappers and Fur Traders of the Southwest" > by Robert Glass Cleland. > > Here is an excerpt from pages 136-137 of the 1963 edition: > > "Many important merchant of New Orleans and the Atlantic > coast consigned their shipments for the West and the Santa > Fe trade to St. Louis houses such as Chouteau, Pratte & > Company. Much of the goods came up the Mississippi from > New Orleans or down the Ohio from Pittsburgh and Louisville. > The cargoes, extraordinarily mixed and varied, included: > > >.......files,.....spades,......shovels,.......scythes,...saws......." > > The reference for these items and others is from the > bills of lading and receipts of Henry P. Chouteau in the > A. Chouteau Collection, Missouri Historical Society MSS. > > Beins Chouteau was involved in the RMFT, is it > reasonable to assume some of these shovels > made it to Rendezvous? > > Victoria > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Date: 08 Jun 2001 10:29:47 -0500 This makes 6. At 07:01 AM 6/8/01 -0700, you wrote: >J.J.Astor's inventory of tools and blacksmithing equipment, 1812-1813 lists, >among other items: >"4 Spades, used 1.12 1/2 (@) 4.50" > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shovels Date: 08 Jun 2001 10:31:27 -0500 I have a fry pan you could dig a pretty good cache with. A digging stick would do. A large knife could suffice. John... At 08:16 AM 6/8/01 -0700, you wrote: >--- John Kramer wrote: > > > > > I have done extensive research into American and > > European tools and cannot > > unequivocally state: "They were used." They were > > available without > >John Mcknight obviously found use for them. >With the numerous references to caching goods, how do >you propose one would do so without a shovel? > > hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 >a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Date: 08 Jun 2001 10:33:53 -0500 Millers sketches or painting. Too much of Miller was done later in studio and numerous later "interpretations" have been identified. Are there listings for picks? John... At 09:15 PM 6/7/01 -0700, you wrote: > >Hello the list, > > > >I've been hard at work getting a correct outfit together for late 1830's > >trapper. My next project is a shovel or other correct digging implement and > >as usual I have a couple of questions. First, are there any period accounts > >of a trappers using/carrying shovels? I've seen accounts of digging caches > >and such but I haven't seen any reference to what they dug with. Second, > >since I will still need something for the drop and parks, does anybody have > >a description or a picture of a period shovel or whatever they used? > > > >Thanks, > >Tim > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >About your qestion wheather or not trappers carried/used shovels. Jacob >Miller drew a picture of 2 trappers digging a cache. They're kinna hard to >see, Miller was probly more interested in the view then the trappers. >They're down in the left hand bottom corner. One of them has a pick ready >to strike. If they had picks, how much you wanna bet they had shovels. >Dirty Shirt > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shovels Date: 08 Jun 2001 13:00:53 EDT --part1_110.ba272c.28525ec5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John you said > I have a fry pan you could dig a pretty good cache with. A digging stick > would do. A large knife could suffice. I can tell it has been a while since you have done much digging John. We are talking about a hole two feet in diameter carried down to a depth of three feet, when it is gradually enlarged, and depend until it becomes sufficiently capacious to contain whatever is destined to be stored in it. This is how Ferris describes how a Cache was made. This hole at a minimum would be six feet deep. From the lists of things that were put in some of these Caches they were much deeper then that. All done with a fry pan and not written about?? Done with a digging stick? I've dug Camas with a digging stick and was amazed that the Indian woman were able to do so and feed their families and put enough away for later use. But a hole this size in rocky ground and not written about, No way. Using a knife is totally out of the question. You would not abuse your knife like that it would last you very long at all. From what I've read a cache was made in a day or less time. Done with a fry pan or digging stick or knife I think not. All I can say is those six shovels sure did see a lot of use over that twenty years. From all the caches that were dug during that time. Larry No I haven't seen one of Dave Conte's shovels. If your coming to Nationals bring it along and we'll put it to use digging Camas. See ya down the Trail Crazy Cyot --part1_110.ba272c.28525ec5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
John you said

I have a fry pan you could dig a pretty good cache with.  A digging stick
would do.  A large knife could suffice.
I can tell it has been a while since you have done much digging John.

We are talking about a hole two feet in diameter carried down to a depth of
three feet, when it is gradually enlarged, and depend until it becomes
sufficiently capacious to contain whatever is destined to be stored in it.
This is how Ferris describes how a Cache was made.
This hole at a minimum would be six feet deep. From the lists of things that
were put in some of these Caches they were much deeper then that.

All done with a fry pan and not written about??

Done with a digging stick? I've dug Camas with a digging stick and was amazed
that the Indian woman were able to do so and feed their families and put
enough away for later use. But a hole this size in rocky ground and not
written about, No way.

Using a knife is totally out of the question. You would not abuse your knife
like that it would last you very long at all.

From what I've read a cache was made in a day or less time. Done with a fry
pan or digging stick or knife I think not.

All I can say is those six shovels sure did see a lot of use over that twenty
years. From all the caches that were dug during that time.

Larry
No I haven't seen one of Dave Conte's shovels. If your coming to Nationals
bring it along and we'll put it to use digging Camas.
See ya down the Trail
Crazy Cyot

--part1_110.ba272c.28525ec5_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shovels Date: 08 Jun 2001 12:52:23 -0500 No argument with any of what you say. And the last digging I did was 2 weeks ago on the land, with a shovel. I just want to know where they got shovels because 6 doesn't begin to supply the number of caches dug. You haven't seen my fry pan if a man really needed to it could be made to work, albeit not easily. Before we see every camp sporting a shiny new shovel wouldn't it be good to know just how common they were and how they got there? John... At 01:00 PM 6/8/01 -0400, you wrote: >John you said > >>I have a fry pan you could dig a pretty good cache with. A digging stick >>would do. A large knife could suffice. > > >I can tell it has been a while since you have done much digging John. > >We are talking about a hole two feet in diameter carried down to a depth of >three feet, when it is gradually enlarged, and depend until it becomes >sufficiently capacious to contain whatever is destined to be stored in it. >This is how Ferris describes how a Cache was made. >This hole at a minimum would be six feet deep. From the lists of things that >were put in some of these Caches they were much deeper then that. > >All done with a fry pan and not written about?? > >Done with a digging stick? I've dug Camas with a digging stick and was amazed >that the Indian woman were able to do so and feed their families and put >enough away for later use. But a hole this size in rocky ground and not >written about, No way. > >Using a knife is totally out of the question. You would not abuse your knife >like that it would last you very long at all. > > From what I've read a cache was made in a day or less time. Done with a fry >pan or digging stick or knife I think not. > >All I can say is those six shovels sure did see a lot of use over that twenty >years. From all the caches that were dug during that time. > >Larry >No I haven't seen one of Dave Conte's shovels. If your coming to Nationals >bring it along and we'll put it to use digging Camas. >See ya down the Trail >Crazy Cyot Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "pat broehl" Subject: MtMan-List: shovel, period Date: 08 Jun 2001 11:44:28 -0700 Greetings to those who read the list, We can not assume that they had to bring shovels along with them just because we cannot imagine how obviously they must have needed them. It is possible that they made them from wood as they were needed. Also possible that they made due with whatever was at hand. But as with every other aspect we are unsure about, we will remain unsure about until we find proof. Every small or insignificant item that we know they carried has been documented. It does not seem common for them to have a supply of any such items without it showing up on some inventory. That's just my opinion. with respect Itsaquain _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shovel, period Date: 08 Jun 2001 13:12:59 -0700 (PDT) We will never Know just how many shovels there were in the FT, or how common they were, but it is by no means a stretch to state that they were fairly common. We have evidence that they went into the RMFT. Forts were built, caches dug and so on. While every trapper probably did not own one, a brigade would have found them very useful. I am sure they were in use at astoria, fort hall, bents fort, taos, Missouri and so on. I generally bring a minimum of equip to a voo or encampment, and someone is generally kind enough to let me borrow what I need, like a shovel, sharing a fire, maybe pitchin in to do a communal meal. I meet more people this way, and accumulate less useless clutter (useless in my everyday life). What I find necessary I buy or make. Yet I have not dug a cache so maybe I do a shovel. Maybe someone who has done a month or more on horseback in the wilds would let us Know what they think. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shovel, period Date: 08 Jun 2001 14:46:02 -0600 Guys, I congraduate you on your quest for the answer with this question. But, I have to think that shovels were common on the western frontier. When a fort or post used cotton wood posts as the fence around it or in construction of the building itself, these trees (some 14 high) were sunk in the ground at least 4 feet. I don't know any other way of doing this but with a shovel/ pick. For a decent size cache, a shovel would be the best way to do it. Here is a source for 6 more "spades"- 2/10/37 1/2 dozen spades 11.5 $5.730 (Amercian Fur Company, Missouri Hisorical Society, volume Y, Z) Invoice of Sundry Merchandise furnished to Rocky Mountain Outfit 1837, under charge of Fontenelle, Fitzpatrick and Co. I use a small flat (roughly square) hand forged shovel on trips. Straight handle, it has two sides riveted together, that works great. I don't like the "T" handles as they always seems to get caught in the packs and ropes. I have used mine to trench around shelters, dig a small cache, level out sleeping areas, make small stream deeper (to fill canteens, give the horses a better place to water, etc.) and help put small fires which start aroudn the campfire. It is my under standing that any company of men, train of wagons or small trapping party would have atleast one of these things around. Why? If nothing else to bury to dead. mike. Chris Sega wrote: > We will never Know just how many shovels there were in > the FT, or how common they were, but it is by no means > a stretch to state that they were fairly common. We > have evidence that they went into the RMFT. > Forts were built, caches dug and so on. While every > trapper probably did not own one, a brigade would have > found them very useful. I am sure they were in use at > astoria, fort hall, bents fort, taos, Missouri and so > on. > > I generally bring a minimum of equip to a voo or > encampment, and someone is generally kind enough to > let me borrow what I need, like a shovel, sharing a > fire, maybe pitchin in to do a communal meal. I meet > more people this way, and accumulate less useless > clutter (useless in my everyday life). What I find > necessary I buy or make. Yet I have not dug a cache > so maybe I do a shovel. Maybe someone who has done a > month or more on horseback in the wilds would let us > Know what they think. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 > a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Date: 08 Jun 2001 15:17:30 -0600 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_567f.577a.79f1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John, I found Astor's inventory list in appendix B of Firearms, Traps and Tools of the Mountain Men. The list also mentions 3 pick axes. I find it curious that there are so few shovels and picks mentioned on such a lengthy list of tools. Adze' seem to be more plentiful as do hoes. I can see building a cache using axes, adze' or hoes to loosen the dirt and some other means to remove it. One possibility of another means to remove it could be a wooden shovel. Looking in Eric Sloan's A Museum of Early American Tools you can see two such shovels. Such "Treen-Ware" (made from trees) would be fairly simple to make and a knowledge of which I must assume would not have been uncommon among the men of the day. This is a great topic by the way. "Teton" Todd D. Glover http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html ----__JNP_000_567f.577a.79f1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
John,
 
 
I found Astor's inventory list in appendix B of Firearms, = Traps=20 and Tools of the Mountain Men.
The list also mentions 3 pick axes. I find it curious that there are = so few=20 shovels and picks mentioned on such a lengthy list of tools.
 
Adze' seem to be more plentiful as do hoes. I can see building a cache= =20 using axes, adze' or hoes to loosen the dirt and some other means to remove= it.=20 One possibility of another means to remove it could be a wooden shovel. = Looking=20 in Eric Sloan's A Museum of Early American Tools
you can see two such shovels. Such "Treen-Ware" (made from trees) = would be=20 fairly simple to make and a knowledge of which I must assume would not have= been=20 uncommon among the men of the day.
 
This is a great topic by the way.
 
"Teton" Todd D. Glover
http://homestead.= juno.com/tetontodd/index.html
----__JNP_000_567f.577a.79f1-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Card Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Used Clothes Date: 08 Jun 2001 17:41:50 -0400 Well, somebody's gotta ask... Walter, what size girls dress do you wear? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does anyone have used clothes for a 1830 free trapper ? this is a new lif= e = for me and i would like to start out easly . i have been watching e ba= y = but no luck . thanks shirt =3D med pants =3D 34 waist 30 long shoe =3D 9 also any girls dress etc . longbutt@hotmail.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Victoria Pate Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Date: 08 Jun 2001 18:11:56 -0500 On Fri, 08 Jun 2001 10:29:11 -0500 John Kramer writes: > Where are the listings of inventories? > > John... > Mr. Kramer, The best I can tell you is Cleland cited the footnote for the inventories on page 137 of his book, which is: "The reference for these items and others is from the bills of lading and receipts of Henry P. Chouteau in the A. Chouteau Collection, Missouri Historical Society MSS." My guess is the listings of inventories are still in Missouri. Victoria ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shovel, period Date: 08 Jun 2001 20:01:10 EDT --part1_ce.15e34cf2.2852c146_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike well said I would add a few more uses for the shovel while out in the back country. I always dig a fire pit to help cut down on those unwanted fires and so when I leave I can bury my fire pit. Camping without a trace, proper camping skills for back country. That bring up another use to bury your business out in the bushes with. Nothing is more disgusting to come across when your not looking were you are stepping. I'm sure the boys back then did not think about or care about these things. But we live in the here and now and if you don't practice good camping skills. Your just another one of those flat landers that has no business out in the woods in my book. I'm not saying this to you Mike cause I'm know you practice good camping skills. This for those that haven't a clue what camping without a trace is. You should all camp as though the Blackfeet are on your trail and you want to leave as little sign as possible of your passing. Another use for my shovel is when I'm out I am always keep an eye out for eatable roots to add to my fair. Like I said before a digging stick just don't cut it for me. One more thing when having a fire in the forest it is the law you should have a shovel and water container handy. So to tell you the truth John I hope there is at one shovel in every camp weather it documented or not. Camp Smart! Crazy Cyot --part1_ce.15e34cf2.2852c146_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike
well said I would add a few more uses for the shovel while out in the back
country.
I always dig a fire pit to help cut down on those unwanted fires and so when
I leave I can bury my fire pit. Camping without a trace, proper camping
skills for back country. That bring up another use to bury your business out
in the bushes with. Nothing is more disgusting to come across when your not
looking were you are stepping.
I'm sure the boys back then did not think about or care about these things.
But we live in the here and now and if you don't practice good camping
skills. Your just another one of those flat landers that has no business out
in the woods in my book.
I'm not saying this to you Mike cause I'm know you practice good camping
skills. This for those that haven't a clue what camping without a trace is.
You should all camp as though the Blackfeet are on your trail and you want to
leave as little sign as possible of your passing.
Another use for my shovel is when I'm out I am always keep an eye out for
eatable roots to add to my fair. Like I said before a digging stick just
don't cut it for me.
One more thing when having a fire in the forest it is the law you should have
a shovel and water container handy. So to tell you the truth John I hope
there is at one shovel in every camp weather it documented or not.
Camp Smart!
Crazy Cyot

--part1_ce.15e34cf2.2852c146_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charlie Webb Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shovel, period Date: 08 Jun 2001 18:23:32 -0600 I have to go along with Mike and Crazy Coyote on this one, but another use for that shovel is for dispatching unwanted guests who come calling with rattles attached to their tails. If you are fortunate enough to be able to dispatch "Ole Jake no Shoulders" without exciting him too much, he makes for fine eating. The shovel is a fairly silent and in my mind an excellent tool for this task. No snake in my mind has ever been worth the price of powder and a good galena pill. Respectfully, C Webb ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Date: 09 Jun 2001 07:58:06 -0700 > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3074918286_122768_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Gentelmen, As hard as tools were to come by and specific in there use, I don't think that I would use my Axe, Adz or any fine wood working tool to dig with when they would be so hard to replace. The second thing that bothers me is why bring a pick if you don't have a shovel (spade) If you are not farming then why have a "hoe". Would a spade or shovel be trade goods or listed as supplies or listed as tools? Would there be more than one list for each trip to the mountains?. I spent the good part of a day digging out what had been a dug out on the land back on May 13, and John Kramer knows how to use a shovel. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- John, I found Astor's inventory list in appendix B of Firearms, Traps and Tools of the Mountain Men. The list also mentions 3 pick axes. I find it curious that there are so few shovels and picks mentioned on such a lengthy list of tools. Adze' seem to be more plentiful as do hoes. I can see building a cache using axes, adze' or hoes to loosen the dirt and some other means to remove it. One possibility of another means to remove it could be a wooden shovel. Looking in Eric Sloan's A Museum of Early American Tools you can see two such shovels. Such "Treen-Ware" (made from trees) would be fairly simple to make and a knowledge of which I must assume would not have been uncommon among the men of the day. This is a great topic by the way. "Teton" Todd D. Glover http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html --MS_Mac_OE_3074918286_122768_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Gentelmen,
As hard as tools were to come by and specific in there use, I don't think t= hat I would use my Axe, Adz or any fine wood working tool to dig with when t= hey would be so hard to replace. The second thing that bothers me is why bri= ng a pick if you don't have a shovel (spade) If you are not farming then why= have a "hoe". Would a spade or shovel be trade goods or listed as= supplies or listed as tools? Would there be more than one list for each tri= p to the mountains?.
I spent the good part of a day digging out what had been a dug out on the l= and back on May 13, and John Kramer knows how to use a shovel.
YMOS
Ole # 718
----------


John,
 
 
I found Astor's inventory list in appendix B of Firearms, Traps and Tool= s of the Mountain Men.
The list also mentions 3 pick axes. I find it curious that there are so= few shovels and picks mentioned on such a lengthy list of tools.
 
Adze' seem to be more plentiful as do hoes. I can see building a cache usin= g axes, adze' or hoes to loosen the dirt and some other means to remove it. = One possibility of another means to remove it could be a wooden shovel. Look= ing in Eric Sloan's A Museum of Early American Tools
you can see two such shovels. Such "Treen-Ware" (made from tr= ees) would be fairly simple to make and a knowledge of which I must assume w= ould not have been uncommon among the men of the day.
 
This is a great topic by the way.
 
"Teton" Todd D. Glover
http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html= <http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/ind= ex.html>

--MS_Mac_OE_3074918286_122768_MIME_Part-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Mules Date: 09 Jun 2001 09:14:58 -0600 I am sorry that I run a little behind on subjects that have been left but week days do not give me much time to get into the digest. Crazy claims that mules kick harder. I wonder about that. Perhaps the saying “kicks likes a mule” should refer to a man who can shoot straight instead of a ballistics question. As to Toms point that getting bucked off a mule makes them bad, that would put a lot of horses and a couple women on my bad list, but then I am a sorry hand. As to mules dung being used for dog food. Let me warn any dogs that take the notion that mules are notorious for their dislike for dogs. Mine is no exception, she put a joggers dog in its place just this winter. The lady was rather apologetic about her dogs bad trail manners until my mule educated it, then she acted rather put out about the whole deal. Well I better drop the mule topic afore I bore everyone to death but I must add that I got home from work early the other night and loaded the 3 year old thoroughbred and the mule in and ran to the nearest mountain trail. If she don’t make the prettiest pack animal you ever saw. Being a young mule she had to test the rocks she was carrying to see if they were removable or breakable but hey we strung out and traveled fast. Life is good from the back of a horse with a pack animal in tow. Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Shovels Date: 09 Jun 2001 09:22:21 -0600 I have a fry pan you could dig a pretty good cache with. A digging stick would do. A large knife could suffice. Ole has one too. Good metal that will not bend maybe a little heavy is all. Made in by the Dutch I believe. Wynn Ormond Sorry Ole just couldn’t resist but maybe we could use the additional uses of a fry pan for documentation of cast iron. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Shovels Date: 09 Jun 2001 10:42:51 -0600 Chris Sega wrote: >Yet I have not dug a cache > so maybe I do a shovel. Maybe someone who has done a > month or more on horseback in the wilds would let us > Know what they think. > I have not had that privilege but Joe Back who wrote the classic Horses, Hitches and Rocky Trails said in reference to shovels, axes, saws, etc Survival even in this modern age many times will depend on just a few essential tools and very simple one at that . . . . no matter how modern you are, just take a few Stone Age precautions Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Date: 09 Jun 2001 09:03:36 -0600 I've found a number of references to shovels in the Canadian fur trade, 1774-1821, which might shed some light on this. On 13 Aug 1777, Matthew Cocking had "one [man] making Wooden shovels" at HBC's Cumberland House. (Rich 1:180) Two square-bladed iron shovels were excavated from the site of HBC's Gloucester House, which operated from 1778-1795, & 1812-1813. (Newton & Mountain, 71-72, in C.S. Reid) On 16 Dec 1779, William Walker at HBC's Cumberland House had "Two [men] Yewing [i.e., hewing] wood for two Shovels." (Rich 2:25) On 10 Sept 1800, Alexander Henry the Younger began construction at the future NWC Park River post "to build a store house to put the Goods under cover as soon as possiable. Some were employ'd cutting logs, others cutting Hay to cover and others making wooden shovels." (Gough 1:51) In John Macdonald of Garth's memoirs of his time with the NWC, he recalls when "...the men were called to dig [Blackfeet] graves, as they had spades, &c." 1805? (Masson 2:33) And for the 1821-1822 Athabasca outfit, future HBC Governor George Simpson requests 7 spades for the Athabasca's many posts (Simpson, 160-161) So, based on this info, I suggest that wooden shovels were made when necessary, as well as using the iron shovels that were also available. As always, if anyone wants the full information on my references, just ask. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Richard J Holliday Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules Date: 09 Jun 2001 13:26:15 -0500 --=====================_18126500==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >I'm sorry that I have so little to contribute to this great list. As a >veterinarian who spent 25 years in general practice in Missouri I have had >a fair amount of association with mules. A horse has a small ligament in the hip socket called the accessory ligament (if my memory from 45 years ago is correct) this ligament limits the lateral or side-ways movement of the entire hind leg, thus when a horse kicks it is directed ' mostly' straight back. A mule does not have this ligament and is thus able to reach way out side-ways when kicking or attempting to "shake hands" as we used to call it. In my experience a mule does not kick any harder than a horse, but since he is alot smarter than a horse, his aim is better. Then too, the smaller hoof size seems to hurt more ... more pounds per square in on impact. Winston Churchill once said. " I like pigs. Cats look down on you. Dogs look up to you. Pigs treat you as equals" I would vote to put mules in that last category... if you want to get along with them you have to treat them as equals. Have a great day! Doc Holliday *********************************************** Richard J. Holliday, DVM Office: 319 568 3401 Holistic Dairy Consultant Residence 319 568 3624 203 2nd St. N.E. Fax: 319 568 4359 Waukon, Iowa 52172 Mailto:rjhdvm@rconnect.com or Mailto:rjhdvm@aol.com http://home.rconnect.com/~rjhdvm/holvet.html *********************************************** "Those who teach must constantly hold up the challenge to study nature, not books." William A. Albrecht, Ph.D. --=====================_18126500==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
I'm sorry that I have so little to contribute to this great list.  As a veterinarian who spent 25 years in general practice in Missouri I have had a fair amount of association with mules.

A horse has a small ligament in the hip socket called the accessory ligament (if my memory from 45 years ago is correct)  this ligament limits the lateral or side-ways movement of the entire hind leg, thus when a horse kicks it is directed ' mostly'  straight back.

A mule does not have this ligament and is thus able to reach way out side-ways when kicking or attempting to "shake hands" as we used to call it. <G>

In my experience a mule does not kick any harder than a horse, but since he is alot smarter than a horse, his aim is better.  Then too,  the smaller hoof size seems to hurt more ... more pounds per square in on impact.

Winston Churchill once said.  " I like pigs.  Cats look down on you.  Dogs look up to you.  Pigs treat you as equals"    I would vote to put mules in that last category... if you want to get along with them you have to treat them as equals.  <G>

Have a great day!

Doc Holliday

***********************************************
Richard J. Holliday, DVM       Office: 319 568 3401
Holistic Dairy Consultant         Residence 319 568 3624
203 2nd St. N.E.                     Fax: 319 568 4359
Waukon, Iowa 52172
Mailto:rjhdvm@rconnect.com or Mailto:rjhdvm@aol.com
http://home.rconnect.com/~rjhdvm/holvet.html
***********************************************
"Those who teach must constantly hold up
the challenge to study nature, not books."
William A. Albrecht, Ph.D.

 --=====================_18126500==_.ALT-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Clay J. Landry" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Date: 09 Jun 2001 15:25:34 -0600 John and list I really find these kind of questions fun because they target what most folks would consider a fairly common tool-yet when you get to looking it is hard to come up with much in the way of documentation-this usually leads to more questions, some speculation and a search for alternatives. In the case of shovels, spades or hoes -here is what I have found. Lewis and Clark--in their list of expedition equipment under "Camp Equipage" is listed "2 Spades and 2 Pick axes". Astorians-in a list of goods and equipment procured and used by the "overland" Astorians at their camp on the "Noudaw" (Nodaway) river dated December 29, 1810 are listed "4 spades & shovels....$1.50....$6.00"--- "2 ditto broken...$1.00...$2.00" , "2 Hoes,, used... .50....$1.00" , "1 Groubbing Hoe..... .75". Someone has already mentioned the spades that were listed in the Fort Astoria inventory of 1811. William Ashley records and Jed Smith records 1825- 1831- records did not contain any references to spades or shovels. Robert Campbell ledger of goods taken to the 1832 Pierre's Hole rendezvous-no reference to spades or shovels. Nathaniel Wyeth's Fort Hall ledgers and records 1834 did not contain any entries for spades or shovels-even though he left Robert Evans and 11 men to build Fort Hall and cached some goods at the fort site in August of 1834-by the way there were no Metis in this group of 11. American Fur Company ledgers for goods taken to the Rendezvous from 1833 to 1840 did not contain any references to spades or shovels. "Things of Life" a Park Service publication which lists the items used and traded at Fort Union from 1829 to 1845 did not contain any reference to spades or shovels. Inventory of Fort Jackson when sold to Bent & St. Vrain by Sarpy & Fraeb in 1838 lists " "3 new corn hoes" , and '"1 Pick axe or grubbing hoe" and no listings for spades or shovels. 1839 Inventory of Bent's Fort- " 6 corn hoes", and "1/2 doz Spades". By the way this inventory also includes " 50 lb barrels of almonds". Just about every one of the inventories or ledgers listed above included some type of adze or large chisel with a few listing things like "beaver spears" or "beaver chisels". Be careful in interpreting Alfred Jacob Millers art work -he arrived in the mountains in time for the July rendezvous and was back in St Louis by October so when did he observe the trappers doing such things as wading streams to set traps or digging caches-yet he has paintings which include such scenes?? Blacksmiths were apart of most of the fur enterprises and in many cases the precursor to building a fort was to set up the forge-Fort Hall, Fort Union, Fort Astoria and even Bonneville's Fort Nonsense built in 1833 in the heart of the Green River valley had an active forge and blacksmith. Jed Smith talks about laying over long enough for one his blacksmiths to repair some guns-so even some of the nomadic trapping brigades had a blacksmith with them. This by far not the final answer on spades or shovels in the fur trade-just more food for thought. Clay Landry Moorhead MT ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2001 4:52 PM I would be curious as to how many Clay has encountered in his deeper digging into the records of places like Fort Hall? John... John T. Kramer, maker of: ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tim Jewell" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Date: 09 Jun 2001 20:24:09 -0400 Hey everybody, I just wanted everyone to know that I didn't just post a question then expect everyone else to do all the research work. So far what little I have been able to come up with is geared more toward shovels here in the east. I have found several references to companies set up specifically to make shovels. One of them, The Rowland Company, in Philidelphia started making shovels in the mid 1700's. They are still in business but now manufacture power transfer units and such. Two others gave passing reference to shovel companies set up in eastern towns but gave no further information. I have sent an email to the Rowland Company to see what (if any) kind of history they have regarding shipping and manufacture up to 1840. I know it's a one in a million shot but maybe they'll have something that will help. In search of the elusive shovel... Until later, Tim ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Shovels Date: 09 Jun 2001 19:44:51 -0500 At 09:22 AM 6/9/01 -0600, you wrote: >Sorry Ole just couldn't resist but maybe we could use the additional >uses of a fry pan for documentation of cast iron. Wynn, Ain't no cast iron here, mine is beat out of heavy sheet iron. Now Ole h= e=20 might carry real heavy and easily broken cast iron pots and pans. John... John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mules, Shovels and horses Date: 10 Jun 2001 01:31:40 -0600 >Sorry Ole just couldn't resist but maybe we could use the additional >uses of a fry pan for documentation of cast iron. Wynn, Ain't no cast iron here, mine is beat out of heavy sheet iron. Now Ole he might carry real heavy and easily broken cast iron pots and pans. John... Hi Wynn, The Spanish Barb was the horse that the northern Indians went south for in the early 1700s. By the time of the rendezvous practicing American mountain men 1825-1838 they were the most common horse on the northern plains. Out numbering any others by thousands to one. This horse is noted by having one less backbone than other horses. These horses are found in the Pryor Mountains in south central Montana today. Living decendents. With the price of expensive mules and horses of today. The Montana mountain Spanish Barb is a bargin at $125. Other horseman friends and family members have adopted these horses from BLM sales in Billings, Montana. Last month a sale was held in Billings. They make fine mountain horses for riding and packing. You get more of the real thing for less money from the orginial equiptment used by the common mountain man at least here in Montana. I do not think mules were used north of the Yellowstone until very late. They seem to be used on the North Platte west and south more than north of that river. The Spanish Barb horse was the standard of best use here. As for shovels. One common method used on the northern plains and northern Rocky Mountains was using elk horn as a pick and a shoulder blade as a hoe or shovel. Plum practical and no need to bother packing along to the next rare cache site. Be going to Fort Union on Wendsday. Looking forward to rendezvousing with other list members. Walt ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: The four wild herds of Spanish Barb. Date: 10 Jun 2001 13:39:30 EDT --part1_2b.16a5b4f1.28550ad2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thought some of you might want to read up on the few wild herds that are left, that have strong Spanish Barb blood lines. NORTH AMERICAN COLONIAL SPANISH HORSE, Foundation Strains of the Present Breed by D. Phillip Sponenberg, DVM, Ph Feral Strains Some of the purely Spanish horses remained in isolated feral herds. Such pure horses became rare fairly early in this century due to the practice of shooting the Spanish stallions and replacing them with draft or blooded stallions in an attempt to "improve" or "breed up" the feral herds as sources of draft or remount stock. Bob Brislawn, founder of the Spanish Mustang Registry in 1957, used many feral horses in his herd. Several of his foundation horses were obtained from Utah, although isolated horses from other herds contributed as well. The Brislawn horses contributed widely to the present breed. Most of the feral herds that served as the original source for the Spanish Mustang Registry were subsequently contaminated with other breeds of horses, and are therefore no longer purely Spanish. The horses within the SMR represent the only contribution that those once pure herds can now make to the breeding of the Colonial Spanish Horse. A later and major source of feral Spanish Colonial type horses were the herds in the Bookcliffs of Utah. These horses also figure prominently in the Brislawn as well as some other herds. In some herds these are still present as a unique strain. In other remote parts of Utah there are still some Spanish type wild horses. One such area is the Sulphur herd management area in Southwest Utah. Many of the horses from the northern end of this management area have very Spanish type. The usual colors in these herds are dun, grullo, red dun, bay, black and a few chestnuts. These horses show remarkable adaptation to their harsh environment. These horses are currently attracting attention, as well as dedicated breeders such as Ron Roubidoux and Darcey Duce. A group of these horses was accepted into the SMR in 1994. Feral horses of the Cerbat Mountains in Arizona contributed to the Colonial Spanish Horse of today. The original group captured from this area was caught by Ira Wakefield, who was a very accomplished mustanger. The Cerbat herds have a known history of purity on their present range since 1862. While Ira kept horses from a variety of sources throughout his long life the Cerbat horses are the only ones of his that made an impact on the present Colonial Spanish Horse. Today the Cerbat horses from the original capture have been supplemented by more recent Bureau of Land Management captures from the same ranges. The newer horses are identical in type to the older ones, giving added credence to the history of isolation and purity. The Cerbat strain is used by a variety of breeders of Colonial Spanish Horses, and is also kept as a distinct strain by Marye Ann and Tom Thompson. The horses come from a very restricted range, and are very uniformly conformed. They also have some unique blood types, which is another indication of their value for conservation. The feral Cerbat herds are still pure, and are being managed by the Bureau of Land Management to remain pure within themselves. These feral herds will hopefully continue to be a source of this unique genetic type along with animals of the same strain being raised domestically. The Cerbat horses are a classic old Spanish type and are roan, bay, or chestnut. The feral horses from the Kiger region in Oregon are usually included in discussions of Colonial Spanish Horses. These are feral horses that are selected to be dun, grullo, or red dun. These are managed both in the feral herds and in herds of private breeders. The excess horses from the range herds are periodically rounded up and sold to interested buyers. The conformation of horses in the herds is currently somewhat variable. Some are still of Spanish type, but others are smoother and taller than the usual Spanish type of conservation interest. Regardless of whether this conformation is the result of crossbreeding in the past, or due to selection from a Spanish base, it is less useful to Spanish horse conservation than is the more distinctly Spanish type which also exists in the herds. The Pryor Mountain mustangs range on high terrain between Wyoming and Montana. Most of these horses have Spanish conformation, and the blood types of the horses are also those expected of horses with Spanish ancestry. These horses are found along a major Crow and Shoshone migration route, and they probably have an origin in tribal horses. They are an interesting group since colors include bay, black, roan, chestnut, dun, grullo, roans, and a few buckskins and minimally expressed calico paints. This array of colors, especially the relatively high proportion of black and black based colors, is also consistent with a Spanish origin. The Pryor Mountain mustangs are an important resource for Spanish Horse conservation in North America. The Pryor Mountain mustangs are fortunate in inhabiting the first wild horse refuge that is specifically set up to conserve mustangs. That they are Spanish is an added bonus, and private individuals are now becoming interested in conserving this type. The BLM has also recently been acknowledging the uniqueness of this herd and is working to preserve the Spanish type on this range. This herd is one of the most accessible feral horse herds, and seeing these horses in their home environment is well worth the trip to this range. Other feral horses that are included in the foundation horses of the registries are usually individual horses with the correct Spanish appearance rather than an entire group of horses such as the Cerbats or the Holbrook group. These individual horses came from North Dakota, California, Utah, Nevada, Arizona, and New Mexico. None of these represent a line of breeding in the same way that the Holbrook/Brislawn horses or the Wakefield/Thompson/Cerbat horses do since none have been bred within the original group. They do, however, contribute importantly to the overall mix of feral contribution to the Colonial Spanish Horses. Most feral herds remaining today are crossbred with non-Spanish horses. Recent success, especially with the Pryor, Cerbat, Sulphur, and Kiger horses, has stimulated some investigation into the feral herds that are controlled by the Bureau of Land Management for other herds of Spanish type. If other herds of the correct type are found then the history of the feral horses in the area will be considered, along with blood typing information, in order to determine if any of these herds should be added to the list of Spanish type herds. These can then be managed to guard against incursion of non-Spanish horses. Such a program has several advantages. It keeps the feral Colonial Spanish horse in the original environment so that selection pressures keep working to produce environmentally resistant horses. The BLM also finds it easier to adopt out this type of horse rather than the usual crossbred type. If any other feral Spanish herds remain besides these four, they are probably very, very rare. See ya on the trail Crazy Cyot --part1_2b.16a5b4f1.28550ad2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thought some of you might want to read up on the few wild herds that are
left, that have strong Spanish Barb blood lines.
NORTH AMERICAN COLONIAL SPANISH HORSE, Foundation Strains of the Present Breed
by D. Phillip Sponenberg, DVM, Ph
Feral Strains Some of the purely Spanish horses remained in isolated feral
herds. Such pure horses became rare fairly early in this century due to the
practice of shooting the Spanish stallions and replacing them with draft or
blooded stallions in an attempt to "improve" or "breed up" the feral herds as
sources of draft or remount stock. Bob Brislawn, founder of the Spanish
Mustang Registry in 1957, used many feral horses in his herd. Several of his
foundation horses were obtained from Utah, although isolated horses from
other herds contributed as well. The Brislawn horses contributed widely to
the present breed. Most of the feral herds that served as the original source
for the Spanish Mustang Registry were subsequently contaminated with other
breeds of horses, and are therefore no longer purely Spanish. The horses
within the SMR represent the only contribution that those once pure herds can
now make to the breeding of the Colonial Spanish Horse.
A later and major source of feral Spanish Colonial type horses were the herds
in the Bookcliffs of Utah. These horses also figure prominently in the
Brislawn as well as some other herds. In some herds these are still present
as a unique strain. In other remote parts of Utah there are still some
Spanish type wild horses.
One such area is the Sulphur herd management area in Southwest Utah. Many of
the horses from the northern end of this management area have very Spanish
type. The usual colors in these herds are dun, grullo, red dun, bay, black
and a few chestnuts. These horses show remarkable adaptation to their harsh
environment. These horses are currently attracting attention, as well as
dedicated breeders such as Ron Roubidoux and Darcey Duce. A group of these
horses was accepted into the SMR in 1994.

Feral horses of the Cerbat Mountains in Arizona contributed to the Colonial
Spanish Horse of today. The original group captured from this area was caught
by Ira Wakefield, who was a very accomplished mustanger. The Cerbat herds
have a known history of purity on their present range since 1862. While Ira
kept horses from a variety of sources throughout his long life the Cerbat
horses are the only ones of his that made an impact on the present Colonial
Spanish Horse. Today the Cerbat horses from the original capture have been
supplemented by more recent Bureau of Land Management captures from the same
ranges. The newer horses are identical in type to the older ones, giving
added credence to the history of isolation and purity. The Cerbat strain is
used by a variety of breeders of Colonial Spanish Horses, and is also kept as
a distinct strain by Marye Ann and Tom Thompson. The horses come from a very
restricted range, and are very uniformly conformed. They also have some
unique blood types, which is another indication of their value for
conservation. The feral Cerbat herds are still pure, and are being managed by
the Bureau of Land Management to remain pure within themselves. These feral
herds will hopefully continue to be a source of this unique genetic type
along with animals of the same strain being raised domestically. The Cerbat
horses are a classic old Spanish type and are roan, bay, or chestnut.
The feral horses from the Kiger region in Oregon are usually included in
discussions of Colonial Spanish Horses. These are feral horses that are
selected to be dun, grullo, or red dun. These are managed both in the feral
herds and in herds of private breeders. The excess horses from the range
herds are periodically rounded up and sold to interested buyers. The
conformation of horses in the herds is currently somewhat variable. Some are
still of Spanish type, but others are smoother and taller than the usual
Spanish type of conservation interest. Regardless of whether this
conformation is the result of crossbreeding in the past, or due to selection
from a Spanish base, it is less useful to Spanish horse conservation than is
the more distinctly Spanish type which also exists in the herds.

The Pryor Mountain mustangs range on high terrain between Wyoming and
Montana. Most of these horses have Spanish conformation, and the blood types
of the horses are also those expected of horses with Spanish ancestry. These
horses are found along a major Crow and Shoshone migration route, and they
probably have an origin in tribal horses. They are an interesting group since
colors include bay, black, roan, chestnut, dun, grullo, roans, and a few
buckskins and minimally expressed calico paints. This array of colors,
especially the relatively high proportion of black and black based colors, is
also consistent with a Spanish origin. The Pryor Mountain mustangs are an
important resource for Spanish Horse conservation in North America. The Pryor
Mountain mustangs are fortunate in inhabiting the first wild horse refuge
that is specifically set up to conserve mustangs. That they are Spanish is an
added bonus, and private individuals are now becoming interested in
conserving this type. The BLM has also recently been acknowledging the
uniqueness of this herd and is working to preserve the Spanish type on this
range. This herd is one of the most accessible feral horse herds, and seeing
these horses in their home environment is well worth the trip to this range.
Other feral horses that are included in the foundation horses of the
registries are usually individual horses with the correct Spanish appearance
rather than an entire group of horses such as the Cerbats or the Holbrook
group. These individual horses came from North Dakota, California, Utah,
Nevada, Arizona, and New Mexico. None of these represent a line of breeding
in the same way that the Holbrook/Brislawn horses or the
Wakefield/Thompson/Cerbat horses do since none have been bred within the
original group. They do, however, contribute importantly to the overall mix
of feral contribution to the Colonial Spanish Horses. Most feral herds
remaining today are crossbred with non-Spanish horses. Recent success,
especially with the Pryor, Cerbat, Sulphur, and Kiger horses, has stimulated
some investigation into the feral herds that are controlled by the Bureau of
Land Management for other herds of Spanish type. If other herds of the
correct type are found then the history of the feral horses in the area will
be considered, along with blood typing information, in order to determine if
any of these herds should be added to the list of Spanish type herds. These
can then be managed to guard against incursion of non-Spanish horses. Such a
program has several advantages. It keeps the feral Colonial Spanish horse in
the original environment so that selection pressures keep working to produce
environmentally resistant horses. The BLM also finds it easier to adopt out
this type of horse rather than the usual crossbred type. If any other feral
Spanish herds remain besides these four, they are probably very, very rare.  

See ya on the trail
Crazy Cyot       


--part1_2b.16a5b4f1.28550ad2_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Spanish Barb. Date: 10 Jun 2001 13:54:44 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C0F1B4.E725DF00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: GazeingCyot@cs.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 11:39 AM Subject: MtMan-List: The four wild herds of Spanish Barb. Good information on the Pryor $125.00 horses. A good buy for future = AMM horsemen. Walt The Pryor Mountain mustangs range on high terrain between Wyoming and=20 Montana. Most of these horses have Spanish conformation, and the blood = types=20 of the horses are also those expected of horses with Spanish ancestry. = These=20 horses are found along a major Crow and Shoshone migration route, and = they=20 probably have an origin in tribal horses. They are an interesting = group since=20 colors include bay, black, roan, chestnut, dun, grullo, roans, and a = few=20 buckskins and minimally expressed calico paints. This array of colors, = especially the relatively high proportion of black and black based = colors, is=20 also consistent with a Spanish origin. The Pryor Mountain mustangs are = an=20 important resource for Spanish Horse conservation in North America. = The Pryor=20 Mountain mustangs are fortunate in inhabiting the first wild horse = refuge=20 that is specifically set up to conserve mustangs. That they are = Spanish is an=20 added bonus, and private individuals are now becoming interested in=20 conserving this type. The BLM has also recently been acknowledging the = uniqueness of this herd and is working to preserve the Spanish type on = this=20 range. This herd is one of the most accessible feral horse herds, and = seeing=20 these horses in their home environment is well worth the trip to this = range.=20 Other feral horses that are included in the foundation horses of the=20 registries are usually individual horses with the correct Spanish = appearance=20 rather than an entire group of horses such as the Cerbats or the = Holbrook=20 group. These individual horses came from North Dakota, California, = Utah,=20 Nevada, Arizona, and New Mexico. None of these represent a line of = breeding=20 in the same way that the Holbrook/Brislawn horses or the=20 Wakefield/Thompson/Cerbat horses do since none have been bred within = the=20 original group. They do, however, contribute importantly to the = overall mix=20 of feral contribution to the Colonial Spanish Horses. Most feral herds = remaining today are crossbred with non-Spanish horses. Recent success, = especially with the Pryor, Cerbat, Sulphur, and Kiger horses, has = stimulated=20 some investigation into the feral herds that are controlled by the = Bureau of=20 Land Management for other herds of Spanish type. If other herds of the = correct type are found then the history of the feral horses in the = area will=20 be considered, along with blood typing information, in order to = determine if=20 any of these herds should be added to the list of Spanish type herds. = These=20 can then be managed to guard against incursion of non-Spanish horses. = Such a=20 program has several advantages. It keeps the feral Colonial Spanish = horse in=20 the original environment so that selection pressures keep working to = produce=20 environmentally resistant horses. The BLM also finds it easier to = adopt out=20 this type of horse rather than the usual crossbred type. If any other = feral=20 Spanish herds remain besides these four, they are probably very, very = rare. =20 See ya on the trail=20 Crazy Cyot =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C0F1B4.E725DF00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 GazeingCyot@cs.com
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2001 = 11:39=20 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: The four = wild herds=20 of Spanish Barb.

Good information on the Pryor $125.00 = horses.  A good=20 buy for future AMM horsemen.
Walt
 
 
 

The Pryor Mountain mustangs range on high terrain = between=20 Wyoming and
Montana. Most of these horses have Spanish = conformation, and=20 the blood types
of the horses are also those expected of horses = with=20 Spanish ancestry. These
horses are found along a major Crow and = Shoshone=20 migration route, and they
probably have an origin in tribal = horses. They=20 are an interesting group since
colors include bay, black, roan, = chestnut,=20 dun, grullo, roans, and a few
buckskins and minimally expressed = calico=20 paints. This array of colors,
especially the relatively high = proportion of=20 black and black based colors, is
also consistent with a Spanish = origin.=20 The Pryor Mountain mustangs are an
important resource for Spanish = Horse=20 conservation in North America. The Pryor
Mountain mustangs are = fortunate=20 in inhabiting the first wild horse refuge
that is specifically set = up to=20 conserve mustangs. That they are Spanish is an
added bonus, and = private=20 individuals are now becoming interested in
conserving this type. = The BLM=20 has also recently been acknowledging the
uniqueness of this herd = and is=20 working to preserve the Spanish type on this
range. This herd is = one of=20 the most accessible feral horse herds, and seeing
these horses in = their=20 home environment is well worth the trip to this range. =
Other = feral horses that=20 are included in the foundation horses of the
registries are = usually=20 individual horses with the correct Spanish appearance
rather than = an=20 entire group of horses such as the Cerbats or the Holbrook
group. = These=20 individual horses came from North Dakota, California, Utah, =
Nevada,=20 Arizona, and New Mexico. None of these represent a line of breeding =
in the=20 same way that the Holbrook/Brislawn horses or the=20
Wakefield/Thompson/Cerbat horses do since none have been bred = within the=20
original group. They do, however, contribute importantly to the = overall=20 mix
of feral contribution to the Colonial Spanish = Horses. = Most feral = herds=20
remaining today are crossbred with non-Spanish horses. Recent = success,=20
especially with the Pryor, Cerbat, Sulphur, and Kiger horses, has=20 stimulated
some investigation into the feral herds that are = controlled by=20 the Bureau of
Land Management for other herds of Spanish type. If = other=20 herds of the
correct type are found then the history of the feral = horses=20 in the area will
be considered, along with blood typing = information, in=20 order to determine if
any of these herds should be added to the = list of=20 Spanish type herds. These
can then be managed to guard against = incursion=20 of non-Spanish horses. Such a
program has several advantages. It = keeps the=20 feral Colonial Spanish horse in
the original environment so that = selection=20 pressures keep working to produce
environmentally resistant = horses. The=20 BLM also finds it easier to adopt out
this type of horse rather = than the=20 usual crossbred type. If any other feral
Spanish herds remain = besides=20 these four, they are probably very, very rare.  

See ya = on the=20 trail
Crazy Cyot        =


------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C0F1B4.E725DF00-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mules, Shovels and horses Date: 10 Jun 2001 16:46:12 EDT --part1_84.172a9cde.28553694_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walt I've had the pleasure of ridding one for the last year and can say they are one fine horse. The one I have been work with is a three year old stud from the Sulphur Herd in Utah. He's a good one, no chance of him becoming meat. But I have to disagree with you when you say: I do not think mules were used north of the Yellowstone until very late. They seem to be used on the North Platte west and south more than north of that river. If the trappers were there so were Mules as sad as it maybe. They didn't change there mounts and pack animals when they came into Montana and Idaho as they should have. (BG) Mules and Spanish Barb were the mounts of the Trappers. The Mules did tended to be smaller then most of the Mules we see to day. If ya can still get good Montana Spanish Barbs at $125 from BLM sales in Billings, Montana. I might have to come up and have a look at them. The real good ones from the Sulphur Herd in Utah have gone as high as $2,000 at auction of late. That is what happens when the heard gets discovered as having Spanish Barb Blood lines by breeders. The BLM has changed they way they adopt them out too by auction so they can get more money out of them. You said As for shovels. One common method used on the northern plains and northern Rocky Mountains was using elk horn as a pick and a shoulder blade as a hoe or shovel. Plum practical and no need to bother packing along to the next rare cache site, Elk Horn Pick? I will have to give it a try Don't know if they would hold up to real rocky ground though. I'm sure that is what the Indians used. A shoulder blade I have used and made into a hoe. Works well so long as the ground is broke up and loose. But for caches being rare I think not. They were very common for Brigades working in the mountains. As for everyone search for documentation on shovels my thanks go out to you all. By all means lets not stop looking for the answers. There has been enough found to say they were here and used. Maybe not as many as we would think. Os lets not go throwing them out of your camp gear. For if ya want to camp smart in the modern world we live in they are needed. Is all I was getting at. A group of us did a bite of digging Saturday for some Caches of a different sort. At our AMM National Site any way all while we were digging I was thinking what tool would be the most needed to dig a Cache. It was the one tool we did not have with us a pick. With a pick any number of things could be used to take the place of a Shovel. But a two foot hole does not leave you much room to swing a pick. So some sort of digging bar would be my next want to work the rocks out with and to brake up the ground so it could be scooped out by what ever means used. Maybe a bucket that way it could be hauled up out of the. Just some more Crazy thoughts from the Cyot. --part1_84.172a9cde.28553694_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walt
I've had the pleasure of ridding one for the last year and can say they are
one fine horse. The one I have been work with is a three year old stud from
the Sulphur Herd in Utah. He's a good one, no chance of him becoming meat.
But I have to disagree with you when you say:                                 
                                                           I do not think
mules were used north of the Yellowstone until very late.  They
seem to be used on the North Platte west and south more than north of that
river.
If the trappers were there so were Mules as sad as it maybe.  They didn't
change there mounts and pack animals when they came into Montana and Idaho as
they should have. (BG)
Mules and Spanish Barb were the mounts of the Trappers. The Mules did tended
to be smaller then most of the Mules we see to day.
If ya can still get good Montana Spanish Barbs at $125 from BLM sales in
Billings, Montana. I might have to come up and have a look at them. The real
good ones from the Sulphur Herd in Utah have gone as high as $2,000 at
auction of late. That is what happens when the heard gets discovered as
having Spanish Barb Blood lines by breeders. The BLM has changed they way
they adopt them out too by auction so they can get more money out of them.

You said
As for shovels.  One common method used on the northern plains and northern
Rocky Mountains was using elk horn as a pick and a shoulder blade as a hoe
or shovel.  Plum practical and no need to bother packing along to the next
rare cache site,

Elk Horn Pick? I will have to give it a try Don't know if they would hold up
to real rocky ground though. I'm sure that is what the Indians used. A
shoulder blade I have used and made into a hoe. Works well so long as the
ground is broke up and loose.
But for caches being rare I think not. They were very common for Brigades
working in the mountains.

As for everyone search for documentation on shovels my thanks go out to you
all.
By all means lets not stop looking for the answers.
There has been enough found to say they were here and used. Maybe not as many
as we would think.
Os lets not go throwing them out of your camp gear. For if ya want to camp
smart in the modern world we live in they are needed. Is all I was getting at.
A group of us did a bite of digging Saturday for some Caches of a different
sort. At our AMM National Site any way all while we were digging I was
thinking what tool would be the most needed to dig a Cache. It was the one
tool we did not have with us a pick.
With a pick any number of things could be used to take the place of a Shovel.
But a two foot hole does not leave you much room to swing a pick. So some
sort of digging bar would be my next want to work the rocks out with and to
brake up the ground so it could be scooped out by what ever means used. Maybe
a bucket that way it could be hauled up out of the.
Just some more Crazy thoughts from the Cyot.
--part1_84.172a9cde.28553694_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Douglas Hepner" Subject: MtMan-List: Conner Prarie, Indianna Date: 10 Jun 2001 20:32:49 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C0F1EC.83C251E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am trying to convince family that the Conner Prairie living history = exhibits are worth the stop. Can anyone share with me any info on this = place? YMOS Douglas Hepner ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C0F1EC.83C251E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am trying to convince = family that=20 the Conner Prairie living history exhibits are worth the stop. Can = anyone share=20 with me any info on this place?
 
YMOS
Douglas=20 Hepner
------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C0F1EC.83C251E0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Conner Prarie, Indianna Date: 10 Jun 2001 22:33:20 EDT In a message dated 6/10/1 7:41:58 PM, dullhawk@texomaonline.com writes: <> Write to Stephen Shepherd. He used to be the period wood-worker there. He has a wealth of info on the place and much else. Ask him for his web site if you can stand being awed Most Sincerely Richard James stephen@ilovewood.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Five Day 1840 Horse Ride in the Rocks up for Auction Date: 10 Jun 2001 23:05:17 EDT --part1_fc.7999cb0.28558f6d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Richard is not on this list and asked me to post this for him. Any one that's been wantin to Ride the Rockies Pre 1840 style heres your chance. I've road with him on one of his trips and I can say he does her up in style. All the Buffalo meat ya can stuff down ya and good rum to wash it down with. And Country he rides, it don't come no finer, that's for sure. This is a ride you remember for a lifetime. If ya have the money there's your chance to do some good with it for your self and the AMM. Thanks Crazy Cyot Hey fellers, Yah might wanta know that, Bob Strohmenger and Richard Ashburn (Elk Antler Outfitters Ltd. at ; http://home.earthlink.net/~elkantlerltd are giving to the land fund a pre 1840 horse pack trip, on August 8th for five days, 2001. All proceeds will be given ta the AMM. Bidding will start at $1000.00. Any Questions send me some E-smoke..........Richard Ashburn --part1_fc.7999cb0.28558f6d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Richard is not on this list and asked me to post this for him.
Any one that's been wantin to Ride the Rockies Pre 1840 style heres your
chance.
I've road with him on one of his trips and I can say he does her up in style.
All the Buffalo meat ya can stuff down ya and good rum to wash it down with.
And Country he rides, it don't come no finer, that's for sure. This is a ride
you remember for a lifetime. If ya have the money there's your chance to do
some good with it for your self and the AMM.
Thanks
Crazy Cyot

                Hey fellers, Yah might wanta know that, Bob Strohmenger and
Richard Ashburn (Elk Antler Outfitters Ltd. at ;
http://home.earthlink.net/~elkantlerltd
are giving to the land fund a pre 1840 horse pack trip, on August 8th for
five days, 2001. All proceeds will be given ta the AMM. Bidding will start at
$1000.00. Any Questions send me some E-smoke..........Richard Ashburn
--part1_fc.7999cb0.28558f6d_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Five Day 1840 Horse Ride in the Rocks up for Auction Date: 10 Jun 2001 23:45:57 EDT --part1_84.17325291.285598f5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I for got to tell ya the Hyper link is to he's web page so you can see some of the Country he will be takin ya through. Waugh! http://home.earthlink.net/~elkantlerltd Crazy Cyot --part1_84.17325291.285598f5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I for got to tell ya the Hyper link is to he's web page so you can see some
of the Country he will be takin ya through. Waugh!
http://home.earthlink.net/~elkantlerltd
Crazy Cyot --part1_84.17325291.285598f5_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Five Day 1840 Horse Ride in the Rockies up for Auction Date: 11 Jun 2001 00:53:18 EDT --part1_15.159a0bc2.2855a8be_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't know who would want to pay to ride in the Rocks? Oops! as usual, --part1_15.159a0bc2.2855a8be_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't know who would want to pay to ride in the Rocks? Oops! as usual, --part1_15.159a0bc2.2855a8be_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Date: 11 Jun 2001 09:17:25 EDT --part1_d7.7ad0582.28561ee5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/7/01 6:00:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, deforge1@bright.net writes: > I know several fellas that have Arrowhead shovels I own two of them and they are great. I have purchased several other items from Arrowhead ( a grill, a matock) and all are top quality work, priced right and delivered promptly. You can not go wrong (in my opinion) ordering from them. Y.M.O.S. C.T. Oakes --part1_d7.7ad0582.28561ee5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/7/01 6:00:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
deforge1@bright.net writes:


I know several fellas that have Arrowhead shovels


I own two of them and they are great.  I have purchased several other items
from Arrowhead ( a grill, a matock) and all are top quality work, priced
right and delivered promptly.  You can not go wrong (in my opinion) ordering
from them.

Y.M.O.S.

C.T. Oakes --part1_d7.7ad0582.28561ee5_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gene Hickman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Date: 11 Jun 2001 07:28:03 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C0F248.0CC55540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Do you have a website or address for Arrowhead? Thanks. Ghosting Wolf ----- Original Message -----=20 From: CTOAKES@aol.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels <>=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C0F248.0CC55540 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Do you have a website or address for = Arrowhead?=20 Thanks.
 
Ghosting Wolf
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 CTOAKES@aol.com=20
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period = Shovels
 
<<I know = several fellas=20 that have Arrowhead shovels....
I own two of them and they are = great.  I=20 have purchased several other items
from Arrowhead ( a grill, a = matock) and=20 all are top quality work, priced
right and delivered promptly. =  You=20 can not go wrong (in my opinion) ordering...>>=20
------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C0F248.0CC55540-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shovel, period Date: 11 Jun 2001 08:43:28 -0700 (PDT) As for snakes, If they dont bug ya, leave em, and if ya kill it, eat it. Snakes are worth more than a gelena pill, they eat mice, and mice can cost a lot more than a little food here and there, they also eat your tack! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: MtMan-List: Mules north of the yellowstone. Date: 12 Jun 2001 01:19:26
Clark wrote
"...one man met me with a mule and spanish saddle to ride, I gave him a westcoat a mule is considered of great value among these people..." August 19th 1805
I belive this would be a tad north of the yellowstone, and some what early.
Cliff

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---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules north of the yellowstone. Date: 11 Jun 2001 21:57:49 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0F2C1.8E00C940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What is your source of reference? Walt Clark wrote "...one man met me with a mule and spanish saddle to ride, I gave him = a westcoat a mule is considered of great value among these people..." = August 19th 1805 I belive this would be a tad north of the yellowstone, and some what = early. Cliff ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0F2C1.8E00C940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What is your source of = reference?
Walt
Clark wrote
"...one man met me with a mule and spanish saddle to ride, I gave = him a=20 westcoat a mule is considered of great value among these people..." = August=20 19th 1805
I belive this would be a tad north of the yellowstone, and some = what=20 early.
Cliff

 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C0F2C1.8E00C940-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules north of the yellowstone. Date: 12 Jun 2001 01:30:31 EDT --part1_7e.16475242.285702f7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cliff Think they are more west then north of the Yellowstone. But north some I'd say. They be running around that Salmon River country. All that shows me is them Lemhi ain't changed none in all these years. They still are good Horse traders and will stick it to one of them crazy white men every chance they get. He probable stole that Mule from them Crow over in Montana and had been lookin real hard to find someone to take it off his hands. If it was such a good critter why do ya think he was lookin to sale it? (BG) All I can say I pity that poor Mule after readin how they made a pack saddle frame out of a couple of blades off their oars. Them flat bars had to sore it some I'd say. Wouldn't ya like it to have a look at what that Spanish saddle looked like that was on that mule. I bet it didn't fit that mule none to good either. Spanish Barbs are a lot narrower in the back then a mule. That's why all them old Spanish saddles don't fit our horses today. There built like a saw horse in the front end real narrow in the withers. All I can say is watch out for them Lemhis with Mules to trade. (Heee!) Sorry Cliff couldn't help myself Crazy Cyot --part1_7e.16475242.285702f7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cliff
Think they are more west then north of the Yellowstone. But north some I'd
say. They be running around that Salmon River country.
All that shows me is them Lemhi ain't changed none in all these years.
They still are good Horse traders and will stick it to one of them crazy
white men every chance they get.
He probable stole that Mule from them Crow over in Montana and had been
lookin real hard to find someone to take it off his hands.
If it was such a good critter why do ya think he was lookin to sale it? (BG)

All I can say I pity that poor Mule after readin how they made a pack saddle
frame out of a couple of blades off their oars. Them flat bars had to sore it
some I'd say.

Wouldn't ya like it to have a look at what that Spanish saddle looked like
that was on that mule. I bet it didn't fit that mule none to good either.
Spanish Barbs are a lot narrower in the back then a mule. That's why all them
old Spanish saddles don't fit our horses today. There built like a saw horse
in the front end real narrow in the withers.
All I can say is watch out for them Lemhis with Mules to trade. (Heee!)

Sorry Cliff couldn't help myself
Crazy Cyot --part1_7e.16475242.285702f7_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leather Date: 12 Jun 2001 07:52:34 -0700 Hello the camp, Got a question for you, I made a leather belt and stained it using a tandy leather stain, it made the leather go stiff. is there a better way to dye it? is there a way to re soften it? YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- ------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mark scribner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leather Date: 12 Jun 2001 07:04:58 -0700 (PDT) In response to your stiff leather. Head back over to Tandy and pick up a tub of "Dr.Jacksons Hide Rejuvenator". The stuff is natural (no petrolium byproducts) and will soften the hardest leather. Just follow the directions. YMOS Bear --- "Ole B. Jensen" wrote: > Hello the camp, > Got a question for you, > I made a leather belt and stained it using a tandy > leather stain, it made > the leather go stiff. > is there a better way to dye it? is there a way to > re soften it? > YMOS > Ole # 718 > ---------- > ------------- > >hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mark scribner Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leather Date: 12 Jun 2001 07:11:14 -0700 (PDT) P.S. I almost forgot to mention a couple of the most important things; 1) Keep this away from the flesh side of your leather. 2) This will make the leather color darker. 3) Some critters like the smell of it and will chew on the leather as a result of being attracted by the natural oils and scents. Once again, YMOS, Bear --- "Ole B. Jensen" wrote: > Hello the camp, > Got a question for you, > I made a leather belt and stained it using a tandy > leather stain, it made > the leather go stiff. > is there a better way to dye it? is there a way to > re soften it? > YMOS > Ole # 718 > ---------- > ------------- > >hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules north of the yellowstone. Date: 12 Jun 2001 08:28:11 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C0F319.9DC15900 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Crazy Cyot, What is your source of reference to Chance's statement? Walt ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C0F319.9DC15900 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Crazy = Cyot,
 
What is your source of reference to = Chance's=20 statement?
 
Walt
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C0F319.9DC15900-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules north of the yellowstone. Date: 12 Jun 2001 11:13:27 EDT --part1_62.fdb0b0c.28578b97_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walt The Journals of Lewis and Clark Edited by Bernard DeVoto Crazy Cyot --part1_62.fdb0b0c.28578b97_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walt
The Journals of Lewis and Clark
Edited by Bernard DeVoto
Crazy Cyot --part1_62.fdb0b0c.28578b97_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leather Date: 12 Jun 2001 12:18:15 EDT Ole, Ole . . . Nothing softens like pure neatsfoot oil. Best to cut it with alcohol, though so it doesn't get too greasy in spots. The alcohol will quickly evaporate leaving a smaller concentration of oil than if you use it straight. I am sure it is the scarf skin, or epidermal layer that has stiffened up on you, so this is the only place you need to make the application. I've used a lot of leather dyes and never had the problem you described, however I used the "Friebrings" brand (sorry about the spelling - its close and you are not that fussy over spelling anyway) rather than the Tandy brand. A guess: the "F" company probably makes the Tandy brand anyway - a little lesser quality - and lables it for Tandy. For Color: Unless you want black and want it right now, one of the best "colorers" of leather is sunshine - bright sunshine (such as you won't be seeing much of until thursday). Hang your belt on a nail or lay it in a window where it will get lots of exposure and it will just keep getting darker to a near black. Sideline: Atlatl chuckers will be at Fremont State Park Friday and Saturday. Good people and remarkable camping area. See you there? Cheers Dick James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "'bella" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: leather Date: 12 Jun 2001 14:36:02 -0700 for my money I swear by neatsfoot oil... use a hand blow dryer to soak it in ... but let the belt hang] out for a day or two after.. it will leave a grease stain... lol.... been there, still have not got that stain out of a favorite shirt... 'bella At 07:04 AM 6/12/2001 -0700, you wrote: >In response to your stiff leather. Head back over to >Tandy and pick up a tub of "Dr.Jacksons Hide >Rejuvenator". The stuff is natural (no petrolium >byproducts) and will soften the hardest leather. Just >follow the directions. >YMOS >Bear >--- "Ole B. Jensen" wrote: > > Hello the camp, > > Got a question for you, > > I made a leather belt and stained it using a tandy > > leather stain, it made > > the leather go stiff. > > is there a better way to dye it? is there a way to > > re soften it? > > YMOS > > Ole # 718 > > ---------- > > ------------- > > >hist_text list info: > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 >a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules north of the yellowstone. Date: 12 Jun 2001 23:43:10
Walt,
 I think Crazy provided the information for the source of the reference, if I can be of other assistance please let me know.
Cliff

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---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules north of the yellowstone. Date: 12 Jun 2001 23:51:00
Crazy,
It was such a fine mule, he was rentin' instead of sellin'.  Charged Clark a fine westcoat just to ride it. Must of been one fine animal.....
 I would give a jaw tooth for a look at that saddle.  Oh well.
Sure wish I was bringing my mules to Idaho, I would camp right next to you.  BG
Cliff

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---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gene Hickman" Subject: MtMan-List: More Segars Date: 12 Jun 2001 19:24:53 -0600 Here are a couple articles related to Segars from the original papers that Red Dog (Mitch Post) has for sale: Columbian Centinel - Massachusetts Federalist Boston Oct 13, 1802 Best Spanish Segars, for Sale at No. 3 Ann-Street, 400 boxes best Havana Segars, cheap, or by the hundred. General Advertiser - Philadelphia, PA Friday Sept 10, 1802 Ten Dollars Reward Deserted from the garrison of Ft Mifflin, in Complete Artillery Uniform, John Leintz, A Private in my company; 37 years of age, 5ft 3in High, Black Hair, Large Eyes, Dark Complexion, Born in Bilboa, Spain, by trade a Segar Maker. Whoever takes up said deserter and secures Him in any Jail or Delivers him to any Officer in the Service of the United States shall receive above reward with Reasonable Expenses. H.M. Muhlenberg Capt U.S. Arts. Commanding I'll send out a few more items from the papers in the next few weeks. If you're interested in buying some of the papers I think he is asking $60 a paper. You can contact Red Dog at: Hiparoo@yahoo.com YMOS Ghosting Wolf AKA Gene Hickman ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Mules north of the yellowstone. Date: 12 Jun 2001 21:09:38 -0600 Crazy wrote: >All I can say I pity that poor Mule after readin how they made a pack saddle >frame out of a couple of blades off their oars. Them flat bars had to sore it >some I'd say. A mules back is flatter than a horses so it would likely fit better on it than on a horse. > Wouldn't ya like it to have a look at what that Spanish saddle looked like >that was on that mule. I bet it didn't fit that mule none to good either. >Spanish Barbs are a lot narrower in the back then a mule. That's why all them >old Spanish saddles don't fit our horses today. There built like a saw horse >in the front end real narrow in the withers. You bet I would like a look at that saddle. Just got my tree to start building mine. However, keep in mind the mules of the fur trade were born to mothers whose breeding leaned toward those retched little Spanish Barbs that whites and Indians alike abandoned as soon as real horses were available. Gimme an American horse to run buffalo and win rum funds and a mule to work on. Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules north of the yellowstone. Date: 12 Jun 2001 23:00:23 -0600 >However, keep in mind the mules of the fur trade were > born to mothers whose breeding leaned toward those retched little > Spanish Barbs that whites and Indians alike abandoned as soon as real > horses were available. Gimme an American horse to run buffalo and win > rum funds and a mule to work on. > Wynn Ormond Wynn, I am leaving for Fort Union tomorrow. On the 25th I will be watching the Spanish Barbs out manauver the bigger horses once again. Chance, Crazy is right your date and location is way to far west of the Yellowstone and south too. Further literature search of Biddle or Gary Molton will locate where Lewis and Clark were on August 17, 1805. On June 13th for example Lewis and Clark were at Giant Springs near present day Great Falls, Montana. Your mule does not apprear north of the Yellowstone. If you look at a map you will see that they were about as far away from the Yellowstone as was the first rendezvous of 1825. Crazy, the Shoshone group you are talking about once hunted buffalo on the Sun River befor being driven way south to where you refer. The Crows have no stories about mules north of the Yellowstone. Clyman does not talk about mules in his first 42 pages of the Journal of a Mountain Man. I associate mules more with the miners not the trappers north of the Yellowstone. I will inquire about mules as well as cast iron cooking ware while I am at Fort Union. Walt ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules north of the yellowstone. Date: 13 Jun 2001 13:42:30 EDT --part1_6e.b9830b5.28590006_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walt I was just giving Cliff and Wynn a hard time about mules. But no means am I in agreement with you. About Mules not being north of the Yellowstone. The Yellowstone country was part of the lands where the Shoshoni called home. On August 14th Lewis is in the Camp of the Lemhi Shoshoni on the Lemhi River around present day Salmon Idaho. On the Aug. 19th they are on the Forks of the Jefferson making preparations to go over Lemhi pass back to the Lemhi village. The Lemhi tribe traded with the Flat Head and Nez Perce who's home lands are a bit north of the Yellowstone country. It appears the Nez Perce had Mules too. Lewis August 20th He is talking to a Nez Perce man living with the Lemhi who said that he's tribe Traded for horses, mules cloth, metal, beads and shells. Walt It appears your beating a dead horse here, or mule as it were. Cliff I wish ya could too. I always likes to have some fresh meat in camp. (G) Be looking forward to havein ya in camp my friend see ya then. Wynn Ya long legged knot head, how are ya? Ya know what ya get when ya cross a Spanish Barb with a Jack Ass? A BARB ASS, enough said. You said A mules back is flatter than a horses so it would likely fit better on it than on a horse. They well maybe flatter but not that flat. What is was getting at is maybe that is why them boys back then were have so much trouble with them Mules (like Ferris) Do to poor fitting saddles and sore back and the Mules nature to rebell against abuse. Those boys were hard on there critters and used them up. See ya on the trail Crazy Cyot --part1_6e.b9830b5.28590006_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walt
I was just giving Cliff and Wynn a hard time about mules. But no means am I
in agreement with you. About Mules not being north of the Yellowstone. The
Yellowstone country was part of the lands where the Shoshoni called home. On
August 14th Lewis is in the Camp of the Lemhi Shoshoni on the Lemhi River
around present day Salmon Idaho. On the Aug. 19th they are on the Forks of
the Jefferson making preparations to go over Lemhi pass back to the Lemhi
village. The Lemhi tribe traded with the Flat Head and Nez Perce who's home
lands are a bit north of the Yellowstone country.
It appears the Nez Perce had Mules too. Lewis August 20th He is talking to a
Nez Perce man living with the Lemhi who said that he's tribe Traded for
horses, mules cloth, metal, beads and shells.
Walt  
It appears your beating a dead horse here, or mule as it were.
Cliff
I wish ya could too. I always likes to have some fresh meat in camp. (G)
Be looking forward to havein ya in camp my friend see ya then.
Wynn
Ya long legged knot head, how are ya?
Ya know what ya get when ya cross a Spanish Barb with a Jack Ass?
A BARB ASS, enough said.
You said
A mules back is flatter than a horses so it would likely fit better on
it than on a horse.
They well maybe flatter but not that flat.
What is was getting at is maybe that is why them boys back then were have so
much trouble with them Mules (like Ferris) Do to poor fitting saddles and
sore back and the Mules nature to rebell against abuse. Those boys were hard
on there critters and used them up.
See ya on the trail
Crazy Cyot --part1_6e.b9830b5.28590006_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules north of the yellowstone. Date: 14 Jun 2001 01:46:30
Walt,
I won't argue the location of Clark to the Yellowstone, I just might be wrong.  I hope you enjoy your trip to Ft. Union, and enjoy finding out that Charles Larpenteur rode a mule named Simon.
Crazy,
        I believe mule meat would be to rich for ya', and you would kill over from the squattin' trots....<BG>
Cliff

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---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Clay J. Landry" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules north of the yellowstone. Date: 13 Jun 2001 22:32:50 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C0F458.C7102F80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you do not have John Ewers book entitled "The Horse in Blackfoot = Indian Culture" you should get a hold of a copy. Like all of Ewers' = works it is well researched and full of interesting information. Anyone = interested in the use (I would guess that means by both Anglos and = Indians) and availability of mules north of the Yellowstone River in the = early nineteenth century I would refer you to page 341 of this book. = This page starts the "Appendix"=20 "Use of Mules". Just a few of the quotes from this appendix---=20 "David Thompson wrote of a Piegan raid on a Spanish party far to the = southward, which may have occurred as early as 1787, in which these = Indians captured many mules as well as horses". "He also describes = another raid by the Piegan on the Shoshoni in 1787, during which the = raiders took horses and 15 mules".=20 In another chapter of the book Ewers gives information about how mules = were prized by the Blackfoot because they could carry more weight than a = horse. My personal preference for mountain trips is of course a Mule and has = been so for many years. The Book of Buckskinng 7 contains several = photos of myself and my all time favorite matched pair -"Peaches and = Cream". Peaches rode like dream an Cream could haul more than any two horses-not = to mention the fact that they were just getting warm and loose when the = horses traveling us were ready to call it a day!! Clay Landry Moorhead MT ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Chance Tiffie=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 1:19 AM Subject: MtMan-List: Mules north of the yellowstone. Clark wrote "...one man met me with a mule and spanish saddle to ride, I gave him = a westcoat a mule is considered of great value among these people..." = August 19th 1805 I belive this would be a tad north of the yellowstone, and some what = early. Cliff ----- Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C0F458.C7102F80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If you do not have John Ewers book entitled "The = Horse in=20 Blackfoot Indian Culture" you should get a hold of a copy. Like all of = Ewers'=20 works it is well researched and full of interesting information. Anyone=20 interested in the use (I would guess that means by both Anglos and = Indians) and=20 availability of mules north of the Yellowstone River in the early = nineteenth=20 century I would refer you to page 341 of this book. This page = starts the=20 "Appendix"
"Use of Mules". Just a few of the quotes from = this=20 appendix---
"David Thompson wrote of a Piegan raid on a = Spanish party=20 far to the southward, which may have occurred as early as 1787, in which = these=20 Indians captured many mules as well as horses". "He also describes = another raid=20 by the Piegan on the Shoshoni in 1787, during which the raiders took = horses and=20 15 mules".
In another chapter of the book Ewers gives = information=20 about how mules were prized by the Blackfoot because they could carry = more=20 weight than a horse.
 
My personal preference for mountain trips is of = course a=20 Mule and has been so for many years. The Book of Buckskinng 7  = contains=20 several photos of myself and my all time favorite matched pair -"Peaches = and=20 Cream".
Peaches rode like dream an Cream could haul more = than any=20 two horses-not to mention the fact that they were just getting warm and = loose=20 when the horses traveling us were ready to call it a day!!
 
Clay Landry
Moorhead MT
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Chance=20 Tiffie
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 = 1:19=20 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: Mules = north of the=20 yellowstone.

Clark wrote
"...one man met me with a mule and spanish saddle to ride, I gave = him a=20 westcoat a mule is considered of great value among these people..." = August=20 19th 1805
I belive this would be a tad north of the yellowstone, and some = what=20 early.
Cliff

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---------------------- hist_text list info:=20 http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html = ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C0F458.C7102F80-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Date: 14 Jun 2001 08:48:04 EDT --part1_47.c871f5d.285a0c84_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/11/01 9:28:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ghickman9@home.com writes: > Do you have a website or address for Arrowhead? Sorry I gave the catalog to someone and have not needed it as the stuff I got from them hasn't broken. I will look in Smoke and Fire when I am at home tonight maybe the info is in there. Sorry I can't help. Y.M.O.S. C.T. Oakes --part1_47.c871f5d.285a0c84_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/11/01 9:28:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
ghickman9@home.com writes:


Do you have a website or address for Arrowhead?


Sorry I gave the catalog to someone and have not needed it as the stuff I got
from them hasn't broken.  I will look in Smoke and Fire when I am at home
tonight maybe the info is in there.

Sorry I can't help.

Y.M.O.S.

C.T. Oakes --part1_47.c871f5d.285a0c84_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Date: 14 Jun 2001 20:48:44 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C0F513.67046960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Perhaps this is what you need. If not.......oh,well Lanney Ratcliff ARROWHEAD FORGE, RR1 BOX 25 WILMOT SD 57279,=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 7:48 AM In a message dated 6/11/01 9:28:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time,=20 ghickman9@home.com writes:=20 Do you have a website or address for Arrowhead?=20 Sorry I gave the catalog to someone and have not needed it as the stuff = I got=20 from them hasn't broken. I will look in Smoke and Fire when I am at = home=20 tonight maybe the info is in there.=20 Sorry I can't help.=20 Y.M.O.S.=20 C.T. Oakes=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C0F513.67046960 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Perhaps this is what you need.  If=20 not.......oh,well
Lanney Ratcliff
 
ARROWHEAD FORGE, RR1 BOX 25 WILMOT SD = 57279,=20
 
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: CTOAKES@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 7:48 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels

In a message = dated=20 6/11/01 9:28:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
ghickman9@home.com writes: =


Do you have a website or address for Arrowhead? =

Sorry I gave the catalog to someone = and have not=20 needed it as the stuff I got
from them hasn't broken.  I will = look in=20 Smoke and Fire when I am at home
tonight maybe the info is in there. =

Sorry I can't help.

Y.M.O.S.

C.T. Oakes=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C0F513.67046960-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Funk" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Date: 14 Jun 2001 21:36:28 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C0F51A.12151420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lanny, Well, actually not. I was trying to see what current prices were on = "shovels"...as I have one for sale and can't remember what the hell I = paid for I this one I have. Bought it about 5 years ago. Used it, = maybe, 6 times and don't need it in all reality. =20 So, if your interested, let me know............or if you know of any = one.......It's like new and in good shape. Made very well. Thanks for your response, John Funk ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lanney Ratcliff=20 To: History List=20 Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 6:48 PM Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Perhaps this is what you need. If not.......oh,well Lanney Ratcliff ARROWHEAD FORGE, RR1 BOX 25 WILMOT SD 57279,=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: CTOAKES@aol.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 7:48 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels In a message dated 6/11/01 9:28:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time,=20 ghickman9@home.com writes:=20 Do you have a website or address for Arrowhead?=20 Sorry I gave the catalog to someone and have not needed it as the = stuff I got=20 from them hasn't broken. I will look in Smoke and Fire when I am at = home=20 tonight maybe the info is in there.=20 Sorry I can't help.=20 Y.M.O.S.=20 C.T. Oakes=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C0F51A.12151420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lanny,
Well, actually not.  I was trying to see what = current=20 prices were on "shovels"...as I have one for sale and can't remember = what the=20 hell I paid for I this one I have.  Bought it about 5 years = ago.  Used=20 it, maybe, 6 times and don't need it in all reality. 
 
So, if your interested, let me know............or if = you know=20 of any one.......It's like new  and in good shape.  Made = very=20 well.
Thanks for your response,
John Funk
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Lanney=20 Ratcliff
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 = 6:48=20 PM
Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Period = Shovels

Perhaps this is what you need.  If=20 not.......oh,well
Lanney Ratcliff
 
ARROWHEAD FORGE, RR1 BOX 25 WILMOT = SD 57279,=20
 
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: CTOAKES@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 7:48 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels

In a = message dated=20 6/11/01 9:28:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
ghickman9@home.com writes: =


Do you have a website or address for Arrowhead? =

Sorry I gave the = catalog to=20 someone and have not needed it as the stuff I got
from them hasn't = broken.=20  I will look in Smoke and Fire when I am at home
tonight = maybe the=20 info is in there.

Sorry I can't help.

Y.M.O.S. =

C.T.=20 Oakes ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C0F51A.12151420-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Date: 15 Jun 2001 06:49:51 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C0F567.605CB960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John Funk wrote: Lanny, Well, actually not. I was trying to see what current prices were on = "shovels"...as I have one for sale and can't remember what the hell I = paid for I this one I have. Bought it about 5 years ago. Used it, = maybe, 6 times and don't need it in all reality. =20 =20 So, if your interested, let me know............or if you know of any = one.......It's like new and in good shape. Made very well. Thanks for your response, John Funk John Bring it to the rendezvous. Somebody will buy it..... Lanney ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C0F567.605CB960 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
John Funk wrote:
Lanny,
Well, actually not.  I was trying to see what = current=20 prices were on "shovels"...as I have one for sale and can't remember = what the=20 hell I paid for I this one I have.  Bought it about 5 years = ago.  Used=20 it, maybe, 6 times and don't need it in all reality. 
 
So, if your interested, let me know............or if = you know=20 of any one.......It's like new  and in good shape.  Made = very=20 well.
Thanks for your response,
John Funk
 
John
Bring it to the rendezvous.  Somebody will buy it.....
Lanney
------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C0F567.605CB960-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Date: 15 Jun 2001 22:59:49 -0400 My own experience, admittedly limited, leads me to recall that there ain't too much Rocky Mountain terrain readily dug with a shovel. Picks, iron bars, etc., likely much more effective. Just my 2 cents, Tom Victoria Pate wrote: > > On Thu, 07 Jun 2001 17:52:19 -0500 John Kramer > writes: > > Damn; I hate these questions. > > > I have been digging around since this question came up and can find > > no listings for shovels or spades in trade lists, supply lists, > > equipment inventories or blacksmith journals of the period in the > region. > > Lots of iron was traded and transported so the making of shovels wasn't > > > impossible, but, to date I haven't found any listings for same. > > One of my favorite books on the Fur Trade Era is "This Reckless > Breed of Men-The Trappers and Fur Traders of the Southwest" > by Robert Glass Cleland. > > Here is an excerpt from pages 136-137 of the 1963 edition: > > "Many important merchant of New Orleans and the Atlantic > coast consigned their shipments for the West and the Santa > Fe trade to St. Louis houses such as Chouteau, Pratte & > Company. Much of the goods came up the Mississippi from > New Orleans or down the Ohio from Pittsburgh and Louisville. > The cargoes, extraordinarily mixed and varied, included: > > > .......files,.....spades,......shovels,.......scythes,...saws......." > > The reference for these items and others is from the > bills of lading and receipts of Henry P. Chouteau in the > A. Chouteau Collection, Missouri Historical Society MSS. > > Beins Chouteau was involved in the RMFT, is it > reasonable to assume some of these shovels > made it to Rendezvous? > > Victoria > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" Subject: MtMan-List: AMM Nationals Date: 17 Jun 2001 05:43:03 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C0F6F0.60515220 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm driving the iron mule to the AMM Nationals in Idaho from the Los = Angeles area. I'll be leaving on the first weekend and I have room for = a couple of brothers and their gear (no horses) who are heading that way = and would like to ride along. I could use the company and some help = with the rising gas prices. You boys from Nevada, Arizona and Utah are = welcome if you want to transport yourself to my place for the ride up = and back. I gotta be back in LA on the 7th for a wedding so it'll be = about 4-5 days on site. Email me back or pass the word along to those = still using 19th century technology. Thanks, Larry Huber #1517 ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C0F6F0.60515220 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm driving the iron mule to the AMM = Nationals in=20 Idaho from the Los Angeles area.  I'll be leaving on the first = weekend=20 and I have room for a couple of brothers and their gear (no horses) who = are=20 heading that way and would like to ride along.  I could use the = company and=20 some help with the rising gas prices.  You boys from Nevada, = Arizona and=20 Utah are welcome if you want to transport yourself to my place for the = ride up=20 and back.  I gotta be back in LA on the 7th for a wedding so it'll = be about=20 4-5 days on site.  Email me back or pass the word along to those = still=20 using 19th century technology.
 
Thanks,
 
Larry Huber = #1517
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C0F6F0.60515220-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Tin Date: 17 Jun 2001 08:12:24 -0600 Found a reasonably priced 9 quart tin bucket, straight up sides with a lid. Looks pretty close for period correct to me. Will I use something that big? Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Tin Date: 17 Jun 2001 9:53:19 -0700 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Wynn, Get it...then you can cook for everyone?..... make sure it's food safe though... hardtack ----- Original Message ----- Sent: 6/17/01 7:12:24 AM Found a reasonably priced 9 quart tin bucket, straight up sides with a lid. Looks pretty close for period correct to me. Will I use something that big? Wynn Ormond ---------------------- --- Randal Bublitz --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Wynn,  Get it...then you can cook for everyone?.....  make sure it's food safe though...  hardtack
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 6/17/01 7:12:24 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: Tin

Found a reasonably priced 9 quart tin bucket, straight up sides with a
lid.  Looks pretty close for period correct to me.  Will I use something
that big?
 
Wynn Ormond
 
 
 
----------------------
 

 
--- Randal Bublitz
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin Date: 17 Jun 2001 12:10:55 -0500 Wynn wrote: Found a reasonably priced 9 quart tin bucket, straight up sides with a lid. Looks pretty close for period correct to me. Will I use something that big? Wynn, I could find many uses for such a bucket. A water reservoir comes to mind. In camps where water is un-handy, having nearly two gallons in camp will save lots of trips to the spring. And if your fire escapes from its pit having that much water handy can make the difference between a humorous story and a catastrophe. I had a fair portion of a camp burn up before I could beat it out with a copy of Neihardt's "The Mountain Men". I still have the book, soot stains and all. I also keep a bucket of water hard by the fire pit. my $0.02 Lanney Ratcliff ps: "The Mountain Men" is three epic poems: "The Song of Three Friends", The Song of Hugh Glass" and "The Song of Jed Smith" They make magnificent reading. If you think you don't appreciate poetry you should give this verse from "The Song of Jed Smith" a try: The scene is a fire with men gathered 'round, not unlike many we all remember. The failing flare Across the elder's grizzling beard and hair, Revealed the mien of one whom many snows Would leave green-hearted. "No, I didn't doze," He said; "and I was thinking nothing more Than what to do about that saddle sore The old mare's got; and it was only now, All still and empty. Suddenly, somehow, I tell you, it was eighteen twenty-five! This valley came alive with fires, alive With men and horses! Rings on glowing rings Of old-time faces sang as liquor sings After a drought; and laughter shook the night Where someone, full of meat and getting tight, Spun lies the way Black Harris used to do. Then it was now again, and only you Were sitting yonder." ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Date: 17 Jun 2001 16:16:02 EDT In a message dated 6/15/1 8:59:45 PM, troberts@gdi.net writes: < Picks, iron bars, etc., likely much more effective. >> Your recollections are sound. I've lived here well over sixty years and can say with authority the Rockies are well named. Now try digging in this stuff with a hatchet shaped shovel of pine or cottonwood - the only two options - it is beyond practical or even possible. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Period Shovels Date: 17 Jun 2001 18:10:47 -0600 The only thing most forget to mention is the location of where old, historical caches were dug, in bottoms. The "Caches" and there were two or three location called this, were where you could dig a hole (large enough to have a man in side of it) were in the bottoms of river drainages and old beaver ponds. Yes, low lands. Here in the Rockies, you can find drainages and even level land which can give you up to six feet of digable soil. This is also why so many of the caches were spoiled when they returned to open them up. Check out some of the descriptions of how they made them and the materials and goods stored in them. They were set up off the bottom to allow some moisture to get in. I would agree that alot of the land you see in the west would not be the best place to cache things (unless you did it in a tree), but even Miller's painting of a cache being made is next toa river.("Wind Scenery", (making a cache), page 112, The West of Alfred Jacab Miller). and the notes which go along with it, describe a river valley and some simple notes of how they did it. Hiram Chittenden tells of the most common places named the "Caches" and where they are found, again mostly bottom land, some in the side of banks of rivers.(Volume one, pages 41, 502 and 536). Don't be fooled. Good spots were probably looked for and remembered when found. It wasn't too long ago that one of our party members (Jim Linn) found a old buffalo leg bone about five feet down the side of a drainage, near Kiowa, Colorado. mike. SWzypher@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/15/1 8:59:45 PM, troberts@gdi.net writes: > > < recall that there ain't too much Rocky Mountain > terrain readily dug with a shovel. Picks, iron > bars, etc., likely much more effective. > >> > > Your recollections are sound. I've lived here well over sixty years and can > say with authority the Rockies are well named. Now try digging in this stuff > with a hatchet shaped shovel of pine or cottonwood - the only two options - > it is beyond practical or even possible. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tribute Date: 17 Jun 2001 18:28:22 -0600 --------------E2F00675E16BE1CF3FC6413A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Charlie, It was good to see you name again. I enjoyed our last visit and will be more than glad to do your request. I held off in replying till I recieved some info from Terry's wife, Vannette. In case some would like to do the same in the future, I'll quote her directions. "Terry is buried at Yellowsone Valley Memorial Gardens, which is on Grand Ave. and near 36th st. If you go west on Grand past the Albertson's at Reherg the cemetery will be on your right. If you get to Shiloh Rd you went too far. This cemetery is only two years old, so there are very few graves there. When you pull in the drive turn to the left and Terry's grave is at the back of the circle drive you will come to. There is no headstone yet since it will be a couple months before it is finished, but there is a small name plate surrounded by flowers". Take care, Charlie. I'll let you know more when I return from the trip. mike. Charlie Webb wrote: > Mike,If you are able to visit Terry's grave would you do a tobacco or > pipetribute for me also? I already miss his letters and the chatting > on thephone. Please mention, Mother Earth, Father Sun, and our > FourGrandfathers, I know he will get the message. Mike I'll square > withyou later for any inconvenience or out of pocket costs. To > Terry, I was "Cherokee Charlie" rather than the "Old Coyote"Doreen of > course was "Rainfeather".Thank you Mike, I would appreciate greatly if > this was in your power.Charlie Been rereading Terry Johnston's > books in tribute to him. Like > many of you, he helped ignite the spark in me to learn about the > fur trade. Was wondering Hardtack- will we be close to where > he is buried at? If so, might be nice to swing by and leave trinket > at his resting place. Any thoughts? > mike. > > > --------------E2F00675E16BE1CF3FC6413A Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Charlie,
    It was good to see you name again. I enjoyed our last visit and will
be more than glad to do your request. I held off in replying till I recieved
some info from Terry's wife, Vannette. In case some would like to do the same
in the future, I'll quote her directions.
    "Terry is buried at Yellowsone Valley Memorial Gardens, which is on Grand
Ave. and near 36th st. If you go west on Grand past the Albertson's at Reherg
the cemetery will be on your right. If you get to Shiloh Rd you went too far. This
cemetery is only two years old, so there are very few graves there. When you
pull in the drive turn to the left and Terry's grave is at the back of the circle drive
you will come to. There is no headstone yet since it will be a couple months before
it is finished, but there is a small name plate surrounded by flowers".
    Take care, Charlie. I'll let you know more when I return from the trip.
                                mike.

Charlie Webb wrote:

 Mike,If you are able to visit Terry's grave would you do a tobacco or pipetribute for me also?  I already miss his letters and the chatting on thephone. Please mention, Mother Earth, Father Sun, and our FourGrandfathers, I know he will get the message.  Mike I'll square withyou later for any inconvenience or out of pocket costs.        To Terry, I was "Cherokee Charlie" rather than the "Old Coyote"Doreen of course was "Rainfeather".Thank you Mike, I would appreciate greatly if this was in your power.Charlie     Been rereading Terry Johnston's books in tribute to him. Like
many of you, he helped ignite the spark in me to learn about the
fur trade. Was wondering Hardtack- will we be close to where
he is buried at? If so, might be nice to swing by and leave trinket
at his resting place. Any thoughts?
                                    mike.
 
--------------E2F00675E16BE1CF3FC6413A-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Was Tin Now Lard Can Date: 17 Jun 2001 23:43:09 EDT I can get a tin lard can or two...the kind with the thin wire bail. Does anyone know if this style is one that has been around that long...back in the 1830's that is. It would make a handy bucket/cook pot if it would pass PC muster and not cost an arm and leg to boot!!! -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules north of the yellowstone. Date: 17 Jun 2001 22:05:59 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C0F779.B0DDC000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Cliff, This time your location is at the other end of Montana in North Dakota = north of the Missouri. Did not hear a word about Larpenteur and Simon. = Wonder if Simon came up river on a steam boat as did race horses which = was part of the conversation with Barry McPherson of Winnipeg about the = Rocky Mountaian Fur Trade while at the 19th Fort Union Trading Post = gathering. Walt ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Chance Tiffie=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 1:46 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules north of the yellowstone. Walt, I won't argue the location of Clark to the Yellowstone, I just might = be wrong. I hope you enjoy your trip to Ft. Union, and enjoy finding = out that Charles Larpenteur rode a mule named Simon. Crazy, I believe mule meat would be to rich for ya', and you would = kill over from the squattin' trots.... Cliff ----- Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C0F779.B0DDC000 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Cliff,
 
This time your location is at the other = end of=20 Montana in North Dakota north of the Missouri.  Did not hear a word = about=20 Larpenteur and Simon.  Wonder if Simon came up river on a steam = boat as did=20 race horses which was part of the conversation with Barry McPherson of = Winnipeg=20 about the Rocky Mountaian Fur Trade while at the 19th Fort Union = Trading=20 Post gathering.
Walt
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Chance=20 Tiffie
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 = 1:46=20 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules = north of=20 the yellowstone.

Walt,
I won't argue the location of Clark to the Yellowstone, I just = might be=20 wrong.  I hope you enjoy your trip to Ft. Union, and enjoy = finding out=20 that Charles Larpenteur rode a mule named Simon.
Crazy,
        I believe mule meat = would be=20 to rich for ya', and you would kill over from the squattin'=20 trots....<BG>
Cliff

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

---------------------- hist_text list info:=20 = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C0F779.B0DDC000-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules north of the yellowstone. Date: 17 Jun 2001 22:39:01 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C0F77E.4DDC5840 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Clay, I assume you are addressing me in your statement below. I just returned = from Ft Union where I accomplished my primary trade the first hour of = the first day. Giving me plenty of time to ask my questions about mules = and cast iron cook ware. By the way my first statement about this = subject focused on Mules North of the Yellowstone and South of the = Missouri. You are talking about west of the Missouri. Not south of it. = The Piegans' are not the falls Indians that sought out American = trappers from the time Coulter and particularly from 1825 - 1840. My = wife is mixed blood with Piegan in her. They were west and north for = the most part. Not south of the Missouri. On my way home from Ft. = Union I turned up the Tongue near Moorhead, MT. Is that the same = Moorhead, Montana where you live? If so can you tell me what has = happened to the game? I saw a few goats all the way to Ashland. A = trapping party would have been on short red meat rations moving through = what was previously supper rich beaver country along the Toungue River = bottom. Over the south hill on Pryor Creek the Crows trapped out a few = miles of the upper portion. They took out 1300 beaver. The Rose Bud = between Lame Deer and Busby must have been equally as rich a trapping = stream. As for mules. I thought the trappers moved before sun up in = the morning and rode until it started to get hot. Then camped through = the hot part of the day. Then moved on again a ways. Ate and moved on = again after dark to a safe sleeping spot. What mountains do you like to = take horse errr... mule trips that the trappers were on? Is your outfit = based on the 1825 - 1840 rendezvous period? Be helpful to know. Nice = rain here in Park City, Montana. Walt ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Clay J. Landry=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 10:32 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules north of the yellowstone. If you do not have John Ewers book entitled "The Horse in Blackfoot = Indian Culture" you should get a hold of a copy. Like all of Ewers' = works it is well researched and full of interesting information. Anyone = interested in the use (I would guess that means by both Anglos and = Indians) and availability of mules north of the Yellowstone River in the = early nineteenth century I would refer you to page 341 of this book. = This page starts the "Appendix"=20 "Use of Mules". Just a few of the quotes from this appendix---=20 "David Thompson wrote of a Piegan raid on a Spanish party far to the = southward, which may have occurred as early as 1787, in which these = Indians captured many mules as well as horses". "He also describes = another raid by the Piegan on the Shoshoni in 1787, during which the = raiders took horses and 15 mules".=20 In another chapter of the book Ewers gives information about how mules = were prized by the Blackfoot because they could carry more weight than a = horse. My personal preference for mountain trips is of course a Mule and has = been so for many years. The Book of Buckskinng 7 contains several = photos of myself and my all time favorite matched pair -"Peaches and = Cream". Peaches rode like dream an Cream could haul more than any two = horses-not to mention the fact that they were just getting warm and = loose when the horses traveling us were ready to call it a day!! Clay Landry Moorhead MT ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Chance Tiffie=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 1:19 AM Subject: MtMan-List: Mules north of the yellowstone. Clark wrote "...one man met me with a mule and spanish saddle to ride, I gave = him a westcoat a mule is considered of great value among these = people..." August 19th 1805 I belive this would be a tad north of the yellowstone, and some what = early. Cliff --- Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C0F77E.4DDC5840 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Clay,
 
I assume you are addressing me in your = statement=20 below.  I just returned from Ft Union where I accomplished my = primary trade=20 the first hour of the first day.  Giving me plenty of time to ask = my=20 questions about mules and cast iron cook ware.  By the way my first = statement about this subject focused on Mules North of the = Yellowstone and=20 South of the Missouri.  You are talking about west of the = Missouri. =20 Not south of it.  The Piegans' are not the falls Indians that = sought out=20 American trappers from the time Coulter and particularly from 1825 - = 1840. =20 My wife is mixed blood with Piegan in her.  They were west and = north for=20 the most part.  Not south of the Missouri.  On my way home = from Ft.=20 Union I turned up the Tongue near Moorhead, MT.  Is that the same = Moorhead,=20 Montana where you live?  If so can you tell me what has happened to = the=20 game?  I saw a few goats all the way to Ashland.  A trapping = party=20 would have been on short red meat rations moving through what was = previously=20 supper rich beaver country along the Toungue River bottom.  Over = the south=20 hill on Pryor Creek the Crows trapped out a few miles of the upper=20 portion.  They took out 1300 beaver.  The Rose Bud between = Lame Deer=20 and Busby must have been equally as rich a trapping stream.  As for = mules.  I thought the trappers moved before sun up in the morning = and rode=20 until it started to get hot.  Then camped through the hot part of = the=20 day.  Then moved on again a ways.  Ate and moved on again = after dark=20 to a safe sleeping spot.  What mountains do you like to take horse = errr...=20 mule trips that the trappers were on?  Is your outfit based on the = 1825 -=20 1840 rendezvous period?  Be helpful to know.  Nice rain here = in Park=20 City, Montana.
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Clay J. = Landry
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 = 10:32=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules = north of=20 the yellowstone.

If you do not have John Ewers book entitled = "The Horse=20 in Blackfoot Indian Culture" you should get a hold of a copy. Like all = of=20 Ewers' works it is well researched and full of interesting = information. Anyone=20 interested in the use (I would guess that means by both Anglos and = Indians)=20 and availability of mules north of the Yellowstone River in the early=20 nineteenth century I would refer you to page 341 of this book. This = page=20 starts the "Appendix"
"Use of Mules". Just a few of the quotes from = this=20 appendix---
"David Thompson wrote of a Piegan raid on a = Spanish=20 party far to the southward, which may have occurred as early as 1787, = in which=20 these Indians captured many mules as well as horses". "He also = describes=20 another raid by the Piegan on the Shoshoni in 1787, during which the = raiders=20 took horses and 15 mules".
In another chapter of the book Ewers gives = information=20 about how mules were prized by the Blackfoot because they could carry = more=20 weight than a horse.
 
My personal preference for mountain trips is = of course a=20 Mule and has been so for many years. The Book of Buckskinng 7  = contains=20 several photos of myself and my all time favorite matched pair = -"Peaches and=20 Cream".
Peaches rode like dream an Cream could haul = more than=20 any two horses-not to mention the fact that they were just getting = warm and=20 loose when the horses traveling us were ready to call it a = day!!
 
Clay Landry
Moorhead MT
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Chance=20 Tiffie
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 = 1:19=20 AM
Subject: MtMan-List: Mules = north of the=20 yellowstone.

Clark wrote
"...one man met me with a mule and spanish saddle to ride, I = gave him a=20 westcoat a mule is considered of great value among these people..." = August=20 19th 1805
I belive this would be a tad north of the yellowstone, and some = what=20 early.
Cliff

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---------------------- hist_text list info:=20 http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html=20
------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C0F77E.4DDC5840-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules north of the yellowstone. Date: 17 Jun 2001 22:49:59 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C0F77F.D664A040 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Crazy, you are far west of the Yellowstone. The Shoshone have not = called any of the land north of the Yellowstone home since the Crows = settled here about 500 years ago. Certainly not durning the time of the = Americans in the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade. The Lemhi Band did range up = to the Sun River until the Blackfeet drove them south. The Crows traded = with all those tribes you mention. Nothing you have said has anything = to do with mules North of the Yellowstone and South of the Missouri as = of yet. Walt Walt=20 I was just giving Cliff and Wynn a hard time about mules. But no means = am I=20 in agreement with you. About Mules not being north of the Yellowstone. = The=20 Yellowstone country was part of the lands where the Shoshoni called = home. On=20 August 14th Lewis is in the Camp of the Lemhi Shoshoni on the Lemhi = River=20 around present day Salmon Idaho. On the Aug. 19th they are on the = Forks of=20 the Jefferson making preparations to go over Lemhi pass back to the = Lemhi=20 village. The Lemhi tribe traded with the Flat Head and Nez Perce who's = home=20 lands are a bit north of the Yellowstone country.=20 It appears the Nez Perce had Mules too. Lewis August 20th He is = talking to a=20 Nez Perce man living with the Lemhi who said that he's tribe Traded = for=20 horses, mules cloth, metal, beads and shells.=20 Walt =20 See ya on the trail=20 Crazy Cyot=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C0F77F.D664A040 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Crazy, you are far west of the = Yellowstone. =20 The Shoshone have not called any of the land north of the Yellowstone = home since=20 the Crows settled here about 500 years ago.  Certainly not durning = the time=20 of the Americans in the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade. The Lemhi Band did = range up to=20 the Sun River until the Blackfeet drove them south.  The Crows = traded with=20 all those tribes you mention.  Nothing you have said has anything = to do=20 with mules North of the Yellowstone and South of the Missouri as of=20 yet.
Walt
 
Walt
I was just giving Cliff = and Wynn a=20 hard time about mules. But no means am I
in agreement with you. = About=20 Mules not being north of the Yellowstone. The
Yellowstone country = was part=20 of the lands where the Shoshoni called home. On
August 14th Lewis = is in=20 the Camp of the Lemhi Shoshoni on the Lemhi River
around present = day=20 Salmon Idaho. On the Aug. 19th they are on the Forks of
the = Jefferson=20 making preparations to go over Lemhi pass back to the Lemhi =
village. The=20 Lemhi tribe traded with the Flat Head and Nez Perce who's home =
lands are a=20 bit north of the Yellowstone country.
It appears the Nez Perce had = Mules=20 too. Lewis August 20th He is talking to a
Nez Perce man living = with the=20 Lemhi who said that he's tribe Traded for
horses, mules cloth, = metal,=20 beads and shells.
Walt  
See ya on the trail =
Crazy=20 Cyot ------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C0F77F.D664A040-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Was Tin Now Lard Can Date: 18 Jun 2001 07:20:48 -0700 Folks, At our local farm store (Intermountain Farmers Coop) they sometimes sell English tin Milk buckets and also Cream buckets with lids. The cream bucket is smaller and would make a good large boiler. I use my milk bucket to haul water into camp. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: HikingOnThru@cs.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: Was Tin Now Lard Can >Date: Sun, Jun 17, 2001, 8:43 PM > >I can get a tin lard can or two...the kind with the thin wire bail. Does >anyone know if this style is one that has been around that long...back in the >1830's that is. It would make a handy bucket/cook pot if it would pass PC >muster and not cost an arm and leg to boot!!! >-C.Kent > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Was Tin Now Lard Can Date: 18 Jun 2001 08:59:05 -0700 C. Kent, If it is the shape I think your talking about, (slightly bigger at the rim than at the bottom, the shape is close enough. I can't think of any one who would object to it in the camps I go to but then I have never tried to get into a "juried" event back east. Remember that general shape can still leave something "not quit right". Your long rifle is the "general shape" of a Russian Mosin Nagant rifle from WW1 but that don't make the Nagant acceptable. Maybe a bad example but you know what I mean. Use the lard bucket until you can find something better. Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2001 8:43 PM > I can get a tin lard can or two...the kind with the thin wire bail. Does > anyone know if this style is one that has been around that long...back in the > 1830's that is. It would make a handy bucket/cook pot if it would pass PC > muster and not cost an arm and leg to boot!!! > -C.Kent > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules north of the yellowstone. Date: 18 Jun 2001 13:26:02 EDT --part1_3c.d3b5fa0.285f93aa_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walt The Shoshoni called the head waters of the Yellowstone home and were one of the few tribe that would enter the giser basins of now Yellowstone Park. Russell talked of running in to a band of sheep eaters there. The book Clay was talking about Ewers book entitled "The Horse in Blackfoot Indian Culture" You really do need to read this book. Some more from the Appendix Buffalo- Back-Fat noted Blood head chief prior to 1850, is said to have been especially fond of mules. He is reputed to have owned as many as 60 mules at one time. Weasel Tail claimed that Blood Indians early learned from the Nez Perce how these hybrids were bred from the union of a mare and a donkey. Weasel Head, a Piegan informant, claimed to have stolen six mules from the Crow in the days of intertribal warfare. The Crow liked to get these animals for dragging lodge poles. Wilson indicated Hidatsa preference for mules as pack animals. Walt The Hidatsa and Crow were related and did a lot of tradeing. The Hidatsa and Mandan are considered one of diffusion centers for horses and mules for the northern plains before 1805. So were the Shoshoni who the Crow were always at war with and would raid for horses. So if you are saying the Crow did not have or use mules during the fur trade ya better think again. Like I said before your betting a dead Mule here. Crazy Cyot --part1_3c.d3b5fa0.285f93aa_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walt
The Shoshoni called the head waters of the Yellowstone home and were one of
the few tribe that would enter the giser basins of now Yellowstone Park.
Russell talked of running in to a band of sheep eaters there.
The book Clay was talking about Ewers book entitled "The Horse in Blackfoot
Indian Culture" You really do need to read this book.
Some more from the Appendix Buffalo- Back-Fat noted Blood head chief prior to
1850, is said to have been especially fond of mules. He is reputed to have
owned as many as 60 mules at one time.
Weasel Tail claimed that Blood Indians early learned from the Nez Perce how
these hybrids were bred from the union of a mare and a donkey.
Weasel Head, a Piegan informant, claimed to have stolen six mules from the
Crow in the days of intertribal warfare.
The Crow liked to get these animals for dragging lodge poles.
Wilson indicated Hidatsa preference for mules as pack animals.
Walt
The Hidatsa and Crow were related and did a lot of tradeing. The Hidatsa and
Mandan are considered one of diffusion centers for horses and mules for the
northern plains before 1805. So were the Shoshoni who the Crow were always at
war with and would raid for horses. So if you are saying the Crow did not
have or use mules during the fur trade ya better think again.
Like I said before your betting a dead Mule here.
Crazy Cyot
--part1_3c.d3b5fa0.285f93aa_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: EmmaPeel2@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: URGENT -- Fort St. Vrain endangered - HELP!! Date: 18 Jun 2001 13:30:34 EDT With Marcellin St. Vrain's descendents, I was just in Plattesville, CO where nasty plans are afoot to turn the property immediately adjacent to Fort St Vrain into one big gravel mine. The Fort St. Vrain site is on the Colorado Historic Register, but a full scale archaeological investigation has never been adequately done. We suspect there are graves onsite, not to mention numerous artifacts which can enlighten us all on the busy fur trade days. We would also like to investigate Chief Friday's claim that there was a massacre en site. The Weld County Commission is meeting soon to decide on whether to allow S&H Gravel to strip the adjacent lot, which is not only a historical haven, but populated by bald eagles, mountain lions, etc. The majority of Platteville residents are opposed to destroying the ecology of the site -- however the big money may rule the day. IF anyone out there can call or write the Weld County commission to sway them, it would be much appreciated. I will post the pertinent addresses tomorrow as soon as I return from Platteville.. Also, the St. Vrain descendents are joining in the Rendezvous at Bent's Fort at the end of July...come on out! :) AJC Westwood ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules north of the yellowstone. Date: 18 Jun 2001 12:03:41 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C0F7EE.B6FD3AE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Crazy, there were 4 bands of Shoshone. Only the Sheepeaters used the = headwaters of the Yellowstone during the time of the trappers from 1825 = - 1840 and they did not use horses. The Blackfeet were west of the Yellowstone and north. The Bloods you = mention were as far as 600 miles north of the present day Canadian = border. As I said none of my Crow friends have any recollection of = mules in their family history which is still going on. The Crows held = the most horses on the northern plains before the Sioux intrusion. The = Crow traded with the Shoshone and others over 400 miles south and west = of here. I have read the book. What I am saying is that I have not = found any indication of trappers use of mules in the Rocky Mountain Fur = Trade north of the Yellowstone and south of the Missouri from the time = of Coulter to 1840. Walt Walt=20 The Shoshoni called the head waters of the Yellowstone home and were = one of=20 the few tribe that would enter the giser basins of now Yellowstone = Park.=20 Russell talked of running in to a band of sheep eaters there.=20 The book Clay was talking about Ewers book entitled "The Horse in = Blackfoot=20 Indian Culture" You really do need to read this book.=20 Some more from the Appendix Buffalo- Back-Fat noted Blood head chief = prior to=20 1850, is said to have been especially fond of mules. He is reputed to = have=20 owned as many as 60 mules at one time.=20 Weasel Tail claimed that Blood Indians early learned from the Nez = Perce how=20 these hybrids were bred from the union of a mare and a donkey.=20 Weasel Head, a Piegan informant, claimed to have stolen six mules from = the=20 Crow in the days of intertribal warfare.=20 The Crow liked to get these animals for dragging lodge poles.=20 Wilson indicated Hidatsa preference for mules as pack animals.=20 Walt=20 The Hidatsa and Crow were related and did a lot of tradeing. The = Hidatsa and=20 Mandan are considered one of diffusion centers for horses and mules = for the=20 northern plains before 1805. So were the Shoshoni who the Crow were = always at=20 war with and would raid for horses. So if you are saying the Crow did = not=20 have or use mules during the fur trade ya better think again.=20 Like I said before your betting a dead Mule here.=20 Crazy Cyot=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C0F7EE.B6FD3AE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Crazy, there were 4 bands of Shoshone.  Only the Sheepeaters = used the=20 headwaters of the Yellowstone during the time of the trappers from 1825 = - 1840=20 and they did not use horses.
 
The Blackfeet were west of the = Yellowstone and=20 north.  The Bloods you mention were as far as 600 miles north of = the=20 present day Canadian border.  As I said none of my Crow friends = have any=20 recollection of mules in their family history which is still going = on.  The=20 Crows held the most horses on the northern plains before the Sioux=20 intrusion.  The Crow traded with the Shoshone and others over 400 = miles=20 south and west of here.  I have read the book.  What I am = saying is=20 that I have not found any indication of trappers use of mules in the = Rocky=20 Mountain Fur Trade north of the Yellowstone and south of the Missouri = from the=20 time of Coulter to 1840.
Walt

Walt
The Shoshoni called the head waters of the = Yellowstone home=20 and were one of
the few tribe that would enter the giser basins of = now=20 Yellowstone Park.
Russell talked of running in to a band of sheep = eaters=20 there.
The book Clay was talking about Ewers book entitled "The = Horse in=20 Blackfoot
Indian Culture" You really do need to read this book. =
Some=20 more from the Appendix Buffalo- Back-Fat noted Blood head chief prior = to=20
1850, is said to have been especially fond of mules. He is reputed = to have=20
owned as many as 60 mules at one time.
Weasel Tail claimed = that Blood=20 Indians early learned from the Nez Perce how
these hybrids were = bred from=20 the union of a mare and a donkey.
Weasel Head, a Piegan informant, = claimed=20 to have stolen six mules from the
Crow in the days of intertribal = warfare.=20
The Crow liked to get these animals for dragging lodge poles. =
Wilson=20 indicated Hidatsa preference for mules as pack animals.
Walt =
The=20 Hidatsa and Crow were related and did a lot of tradeing. The Hidatsa = and=20
Mandan are considered one of diffusion centers for horses and = mules for=20 the
northern plains before 1805. So were the Shoshoni who the Crow = were=20 always at
war with and would raid for horses. So if you are saying = the=20 Crow did not
have or use mules during the fur trade ya better = think again.=20
Like I said before your betting a dead Mule here.
Crazy Cyot=20
------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C0F7EE.B6FD3AE0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Was Tin Now Lard Can Date: 18 Jun 2001 14:06:39 EDT <> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Was Tin Now Lard Can Date: 18 Jun 2001 14:19:06 EDT Dang - didn't mean to send that last one 'til it was finished.. Let me start again: RJ <> I have had some that were my grandmas that I know went back into the 1800s, but I doubt to the fur trade. She saved them as berry pails to harvest chokecherries. I will tell you a tale, however: In 1976 or '77, Lance Grabowski was preparing to ride the old Jed Smith trip from the south end of Bear Lake (they didn't know then that he had started from Soda Springs, Idaho) to San Bernardino. Before he left I gave him a one quart tin cup and one of those lard pails you mention. He appeared grateful for them. By the end of the trip his horse had rolled on the lard pail and destroyed it leaving the tin cup as his only utensil. The pail served him well while it lasted. What amazes me is that you have lard pails. The only place I see them anymore is in antique stores. I think there is a message there somewhere that when antique stores carry for stock in trade the things a person once bought new - that is a sign that some of that persons friends are getting old. Sincerely Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "De Santis, Nick" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Was Tin Now Lard Can Date: 18 Jun 2001 13:02:07 -0700 I found a tin pail with a bail in the paint dept of our local dept store. I do not know the lard pail size, but this one was about 2 QTs ans sold for under $3. Nick De Santis -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 11:07 AM <> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules north of the yellowstone. Date: 18 Jun 2001 15:15:05 -0600 At 12:03 PM 06/18/2001 -0600, you wrote: What I am saying is that I have not found any indication of trappers use of mules in the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade north of the Yellowstone and south of the Missouri from the time of Coulter to 1840. >Walt Hell, of course there weren't any mules used by the trappers up there! The Metis stole them all to pull their carts down to build Fort Hall....... Allen Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Hawkengun@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Stretching a beaver pelt; Santa Fe Trail encampment, etc. Date: 18 Jun 2001 19:43:33 EDT I'm working at Bent's Old Fort this summer as a seasonal ranger, and I need some advice as I'm much more a historian than a buckskinner. Last weekend I skinned a beaver at the fort, and did a fair job of it since it wasn't the first critter I'd skinned by any means (but the first beaver I'd done, and most of the other animals had been "sheath skinned".) Anyway, I put the pelt in the freezer until round two. 1) I need to build a willow hoop 2) I need to stretch it round on said hoop. Any advice you gentlemen (and ladies) may have on these projects would be greatly appreciated. Also, the Santa Fe Trail Encampment is on for July 27, 28, 29th and the camping will be on Timpas Crk. on the Comanche Nat'l Grasslands. This site is (I'm told) right astraddle the Santa Fe Tr. and perhaps near the place where Marcellin St. Vrain's pack train got ambushed by Pawnee raiders in the early '30s. I'm hoping some veteran buckskinners will come out for the doin's, as I could use some constructive criticism. Thanks, John R. Sweet ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Douglas Hepner" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Stretching a beaver Date: 18 Jun 2001 19:23:54 -0500 I make a willow hoop just big enough that the pelt fastened from the nose at the top of hoop hangs just about 1-1/2" (or so) beyond the bottom of hoop. I then poke holes in the hide around the edges of the hide about every inch to inch and one half apart. I then use rawhide lace or sisal rope/twine running thru the holes and looping around the hoop until hide is tight and evenly spaced all the way around hoop. Allow it to dry. P.S. - Be sure to flesh the hide thoroughly before stretching. YMOS Douglas Hepner ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 6:43 PM encampment, etc. > > I'm working at Bent's Old Fort this summer as a seasonal ranger, and I need > some advice as I'm much more a historian than a buckskinner. Last weekend I > skinned a beaver at the fort, and did a fair job of it since it wasn't the > first critter I'd skinned by any means (but the first beaver I'd done, and > most of the other animals had been "sheath skinned".) > > Anyway, I put the pelt in the freezer until round two. 1) I need to build a > willow hoop 2) I need to stretch it round on said hoop. Any advice you > gentlemen (and ladies) may have on these projects would be greatly > appreciated. > > Also, the Santa Fe Trail Encampment is on for July 27, 28, 29th and the > camping will be on Timpas Crk. on the Comanche Nat'l Grasslands. This site > is (I'm told) right astraddle the Santa Fe Tr. and perhaps near the place > where Marcellin St. Vrain's pack train got ambushed by Pawnee raiders in the > early '30s. > > I'm hoping some veteran buckskinners will come out for the doin's, as I could > use some constructive criticism. > > Thanks, > > John R. Sweet > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Was Tin Now Lard Can Date: 18 Jun 2001 23:28:47 EDT In a message dated 6/18/01 2:20:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, SWzypher@aol.com writes: << hen antique stores carry for stock in trade the things a person once bought new - that is a sign that some of that persons friends are getting old. >> But sir...I am a mere sprout of 31...or an old man in mountain terms Living in the south...there a still a few folks who regularly butcher hogs and render the lard. You got to know where to look but they are still available. Did your grandma's have the little "bubbles" that held the ends of the bails to the side of the bucket without actually piercing the sides of the bucket? I know the tin is PC..I was wanting to know the style was correct or not. Capt, Lahti made a good point about just using them...but I have no juried events out here nearby. Most folks just take it upon themselves to do it right as possible with the resources they have and leave off what they do not or cannot do right. That was the real gist of my desire to know if the can was basically the same as "back then". Besides, the shiny new tin reflects the pretty glow of my camp-mates' authentic cheeto colored warshirt! (Just kidding - the georgia rangers would NEVER do that) -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Was Tin Now Lard Can Date: 18 Jun 2001 23:50:41 EDT In a message dated 6/18/1 9:29:49 PM, HikingOnThru@cs.com writes: <<.I am a mere sprout of 31...or an old man in mountain terms Living in the south...there a still a few folks who regularly butcher hogs and render the lard. You got to know where to look but they are still available. >> O.K., Sprout . . . I'd like to pursue this a bit. I used to live in the South (N.C. & Va.) so am familiar with home kilt hawgs, smoked hams and fantastic sausage and such. Now are you telling me that within these circles there is still a source for old timie lard buckets. Hoping your answer is "Yes", my next question is, "Where?". Most sincerly Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Possum Hunter" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Was Tin Now Lard Can Date: 19 Jun 2001 00:06:54 -0400 Richard James wrote: >Now are you telling me that within these circles there is still a source for old timie lard buckets. Hoping your answer is "Yes", my next question is, "Where?". Lehamn's Harware In Kidron Ohio has them. www.lehmans.com Bubba O'Leary's General Store, Chimney Rock, NC also has them. http://www.chimney-rock.com/crg_shopping.htm#bubbas Possum ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules north of the yellowstone. Date: 18 Jun 2001 22:11:52 -0600 Allen: LeRoy Haffen says that 4 out of 5 involved in the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade were Metis. I have a son in law who cut the tipi poles for Dances With Wolves. His name is Evans. He is a mixed blood. Walt > What I am saying is that I have not found any indication of trappers use of > mules in the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade north of the Yellowstone and south of > the Missouri from the time of Coulter to 1840. > >Walt > > Hell, of course there weren't any mules used by the trappers up there! The > Metis stole them all to pull their carts down to build Fort Hall....... > > > Allen > Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules north of the yellowstone. Date: 19 Jun 2001 01:20:39 EDT --part1_a8.16fdb353.28603b27_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walt I give up, your right! I forgot about the Rocky Mountain, Yellowstone and Missouri River triangle. Where no Trapper dared to take his mule. They could ride any where else in these here Mountains on there mule in safety. But to enter that triangle and they would never be heard from again. That is why they all got rid of there mules before entering that area. See ya on the trail with A very big grin Crazy Cyot --part1_a8.16fdb353.28603b27_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walt
I give up, your right!
I forgot about the Rocky Mountain, Yellowstone and Missouri River triangle.
Where no Trapper dared to take his mule. They could ride any where else in
these here Mountains on there mule in safety. But to enter that triangle and
they would never be heard from again. That is why they all got rid of there
mules before entering that area.
See ya on the trail with
A very big grin
Crazy Cyot --part1_a8.16fdb353.28603b27_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules north of the yellowstone. Date: 18 Jun 2001 23:44:18 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C0F850.975B7780 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Crazy: It is a good thing to recognize the powerful influence the Falls Indians = had on the American trappers in the area being discussed. They drove = John Coulter out of the Yellowstone Country. Broke up Lisa's business. = Got the Immel and Jones party. Rubbed out Rose. Caused great concern = to the large winter camp of mountain men during the winter of 1836-1837. = Right up to the end of the 1840 demise of the rendezvous style of Rocky = Mountain fur trappers system they were tough, predatory and fierce in = force upon the American trappers. Headed to the Little Big Horn friday through monday. Another good place = to camp among the Crows. Walt ----- Original Message -----=20 From: GazeingCyot@cs.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 11:20 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules north of the yellowstone. Walt=20 I give up, your right!=20 I forgot about the Rocky Mountain, Yellowstone and Missouri River = triangle.=20 Where no Trapper dared to take his mule. They could ride any where = else in=20 these here Mountains on there mule in safety. But to enter that = triangle and=20 they would never be heard from again. That is why they all got rid of = there=20 mules before entering that area.=20 See ya on the trail with=20 A very big grin=20 Crazy Cyot=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C0F850.975B7780 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Crazy:
 
It is a good thing to recognize the = powerful=20 influence the Falls Indians had on the American trappers in the area = being=20 discussed.  They drove John Coulter out of the Yellowstone = Country. =20 Broke up Lisa's business.  Got the Immel and Jones party.  = Rubbed out=20 Rose.  Caused great concern to the large winter camp of mountain = men during=20 the winter of 1836-1837.  Right up to the end of the 1840 demise of = the=20 rendezvous style of Rocky Mountain fur trappers system they were tough,=20 predatory and fierce in force upon the American trappers.
 
Headed to the Little Big Horn friday = through=20 monday.  Another good place to camp among the Crows.
Walt
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 GazeingCyot@cs.com
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 = 11:20=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules = north of=20 the yellowstone.

Walt
I = give up,=20 your right!
I forgot about the Rocky Mountain, Yellowstone and = Missouri=20 River triangle.
Where no Trapper dared to take his mule. They = could ride=20 any where else in
these here Mountains on there mule in safety. = But to=20 enter that triangle and
they would never be heard from again. That = is why=20 they all got rid of there
mules before entering that area.
See = ya on=20 the trail with
A very big grin
Crazy Cyot=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C0F850.975B7780-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules north of the yellowstone. Date: 19 Jun 2001 06:15:06 -0700 Walt, Now I could not let that one slide, I just found out that I am Metis. My Grandmother was Swedish and my Grandfather was Danish. Cool! YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "Walt Foster" >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules north of the yellowstone. >Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001, 9:11 PM > >Allen: > >LeRoy Haffen says that 4 out of 5 involved in the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade >were Metis. > >I have a son in law who cut the tipi poles for Dances With Wolves. His name >is Evans. >He is a mixed blood. >Walt > > > >> What I am saying is that I have not found any indication of trappers use >of >> mules in the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade north of the Yellowstone and south >of >> the Missouri from the time of Coulter to 1840. >> >Walt >> >> Hell, of course there weren't any mules used by the trappers up there! >The >> Metis stole them all to pull their carts down to build Fort Hall....... >> >> >> Allen >> Allen Hall #1729 from Fort Hall country > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules north of the yellowstone. Date: 19 Jun 2001 08:28:57 -0700 (PDT) -- "Ole B. Jensen" wrote: > Walt, > Now I could not let that one slide, I just found out > that I am Metis. My > Grandmother was Swedish and my Grandfather was > Danish. Cool! > YMOS > Ole # 718 At least half of your heritage is good, the Danish half. As for the swedish side.....I forgive ya BTW where was your grandfather from?, do you Know any other Family on your Danish side? My Great Grandfather owned a Dairy Farm in Duluth Minn. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Charlie Webb Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tribute Date: 18 Jun 2001 10:39:33 -0600 Mike, Many thanks for your information and efforts. I am indebted to you for this one, will square with you when next our trails cross. T.J. was an inspiration, I will miss him and his Winter Song. Thanks again!!! Charlie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Artist information?? Date: 19 Jun 2001 17:52:36 EDT I have two original oil paintings which I purchased about 20-25 years ago during my artwork buying binge. One is by David Kemp and the other by John Stanford. Both are of moutain men in the Rockies. Kemp's picture portrays a lone man standing on a ridge, dressed in buckskins and leaning on his rifle. There is an elk rack slung over his horse in the background. Stanford's picture is of two mountain men ahorse, leading a laden pack animal across a snowy high mountain meadow. They are clad in capotes and their Hawken style rifles slung across the saddle horn. Is anyone familiar with either of these artists? I would assume them to be from out west somewhere because of the content and would appreciate knowing anything about them. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules north of the yellowstone. Date: 19 Jun 2001 16:43:32 -0700 Chris, I am Danish, born in Odense Denmark. Most of my family is still in Denmark. My Uncle owns a dairy farm in Vaebeck just north of Copenhagen and my second uncle owns a farm north of Odense.As for me I am as American as I can be. To make a long question go away Most trapers were half Indian and something else but that does not make them Metis unless you interpet Metis as half breed. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: Chris Sega >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules north of the yellowstone. >Date: Tue, Jun 19, 2001, 8:28 AM > >-- "Ole B. Jensen" wrote: >> Walt, >> Now I could not let that one slide, I just found out >> that I am Metis. My >> Grandmother was Swedish and my Grandfather was >> Danish. Cool! >> YMOS >> Ole # 718 > >At least half of your heritage is good, the Danish >half. As for the swedish side.....I forgive ya >BTW where was your grandfather from?, do you Know any >other Family on your Danish side? My Great >Grandfather owned a Dairy Farm in Duluth Minn. > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. >http://buzz.yahoo.com/ > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules north of the yellowstone. Date: 19 Jun 2001 23:25:40 -0600 At 10:11 PM 06/18/2001 -0600, you wrote: >LeRoy Haffen says that 4 out of 5 involved in the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade >were Metis. Exactly where is this found? >I have a son in law who cut the tipi poles for Dances With Wolves. His name >is Evans.>He is a mixed blood. And this means.................. Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 20:19:55 -0500 Date: 22 Jun 2001 19:16:46 -0600 Is this thing on??? I have seen precious little on here in days. Are we down or does everybody actually have a life? Lanney Ratcliff ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mules north of the yellowstone Date: 22 Jun 2001 20:02:03 -0600 Well, here is one mule north of the Yellowstone--waay north! On Sept 17, 1809, Alexander Henry the Younger wrote that Gros Blanc, a Blackfoot chief, "appears to be upwards of sixty years of age and generally rides on a White Mule." (Gough 2:399)This was at Fort Vermilion, near the present city of Vermilion, Alberta. Here's another which is north of the Missouri, at the Mandan Villages, at the same time that Lewis & Clark were there: "bought a stout mule for which I paid : 1 gun, 1 large axe, 1 awl, 1 looking glass, 1 fathom Hudson's Bay red strouds, 1 fothom tobacco, 2 flints, 3 strings pipe beads, 300 balls and powder, 2 knives, 2 wormers, and a little vermillon." 19 Dec 1804, F.-A. Larocque. (Wood & Thiessen, 67) Expensive!! Mules were very rare in the Canadian fur trade during the 1774-1821 time frame; these are the only ones I've found in a ton of reading. As always, if you want the details on my references, just ask. The two volume set of the journals of Alexander Henry the Younger is now available online; this is Barry Gough's recent edition, done for the Champlain Society, and it is a must read if you're interested in the North West Company, Red River Metis, Blackfoot culture, and/or Astoria. Henry's journals span the period from 1800 to 1814, and he had an excellent eye for detail and never sugar-coated *anything*! Search for Gough or Henry at www.canadiana.org to find the books; they're in Adobe Acrobat (.pdf) format. My apologies if I've already told you guys about this, but it is one awesome resource! Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 20:19:55 -0500 Date: 22 Jun 2001 19:40:15 -0700 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Hi Lanney, etc...., I'm just about ready to roll to Montana. A bunch of us are canoeing the White Cliffs area of the Missouri next week. Afterwords, most of us are heading for National. See you there. Hardtack Is this thing on??? I have seen precious little on here in days. Are we down or does everybody actually have a life? Lanney Ratcliff ---------------------- --- Randal Bublitz --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Hi Lanney, etc....,   I'm just about ready to roll to Montana.  A bunch of us are canoeing the White Cliffs area of the Missouri next week.  Afterwords, most of us are heading for National.  See you there.   Hardtack
 

Is this thing on???  I have seen precious little on here in days.  Are we
down or does everybody actually have a life?
Lanney Ratcliff
 
 
----------------------
 

 
--- Randal Bublitz
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Something useful Date: 22 Jun 2001 21:36:50 -0500 I found the linked chart interesting and useful. http://netnow.micron.net/~atlatl/metric.htm John... "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Benjamin Franklin 1759 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 20:19:55 -0500 Date: 22 Jun 2001 23:16:50 -0400 Well, after all the mules, hellos' and now i for get the other topics...it is nice to see a quiet board. For those of us who are stuck at home in the Fla. humidity, Thunder storms and fires....I could use some quiet. Linda Holley Lanney Ratcliff wrote: > Is this thing on??? I have seen precious little on here in days. Are we > down or does everybody actually have a life? > Lanney Ratcliff > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "'bella" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 20:19:55 -0500 Date: 22 Jun 2001 23:23:07 -0400 and for us stuck up here in the northeast, piggsburgh.. flash floods and al that... i can finally catch up on the list reading. anyone going to the eastern primitive in Sept? 'bella At 11:16 PM 6/22/2001 -0400, you wrote: >Well, after all the mules, hellos' and now i for get the other topics...it is >nice to see a quiet board. For those of us who are stuck at home in the >Fla. humidity, Thunder storms and fires....I could use some quiet. > >Linda Holley > >Lanney Ratcliff wrote: > > > Is this thing on??? I have seen precious little on here in days. Are we > > down or does everybody actually have a life? > > Lanney Ratcliff > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tim Jewell" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 20:19:55 -0500 Date: 22 Jun 2001 23:48:22 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- > anyone going to the eastern primitive in Sept? > 'bella Hi 'bella, I'll be at the Eastern. So far plans are to be there for early setup on Wed. or Thurs. and staying until it's over. Maybe those of us who go can set up a place to meet. Sure would be nice to put some faces with the names. Tim tjewell@home.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 20:19:55 -0500 Date: 23 Jun 2001 00:17:13 EDT In a message dated 6/22/1 7:23:01 PM, amm1585@hyperusa.com writes: << does everybody actually have a life?>> Possibly. Scarey, huh? ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 20:19:55 -0500 Date: 23 Jun 2001 10:36:42 -0600 A life? Of my own? My oldest daughter just gave me my first grandchild & = my youngest just gopt married. What life? On Saturday, August 10, 1940, Lanney Ratcliff wrote:= >Is this thing on??? I have seen precious little on here in days. Are we >down or does everybody actually have a life? >Lanney Ratcliff > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM National Date: 23 Jun 2001 20:50:42 EDT --part1_9a.16098ce9.28669362_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Going to Idaho Got any sugestions for must see places between there and Colorado. I got a few in mind Henry's 1910 camp and 1911 fort, Fort Hall, Fort Bridger,& Pine Dale Museum Of the Mountain Man. May be just good places to stop and think. Thanks Roadkill --part1_9a.16098ce9.28669362_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Going to Idaho Got any sugestions for must see places between there and
Colorado.
I got a few in mind Henry's 1910 camp and 1911 fort, Fort Hall, Fort Bridger,&
Pine Dale Museum Of the Mountain Man. May be just good places to stop and
think.
Thanks Roadkill --part1_9a.16098ce9.28669362_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: AMM National Date: 23 Jun 2001 21:28:49 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C0FC2B.7E0C4320 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you are going near Delta in west central Colorado you should budget = at least a couple of hours to tour Fort Uncompahgre. It is exceptional. = An absolutely don't miss place. Lanney Ratcliff ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 7:50 PM Going to Idaho Got any sugestions for must see places between there and=20 Colorado.=20 I got a few in mind Henry's 1910 camp and 1911 fort, Fort Hall, Fort = Bridger,&=20 Pine Dale Museum Of the Mountain Man. May be just good places to stop = and=20 think.=20 Thanks Roadkill=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C0FC2B.7E0C4320 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If you are going near Delta in west central Colorado = you=20 should budget at least a couple of hours to tour Fort = Uncompahgre.  It=20 is exceptional.  An absolutely don't miss place.
Lanney Ratcliff
----- Original Message -----=20
From: MarkLoader@aol.com=20
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2001 7:50 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM National

Going to = Idaho Got any=20 sugestions for must see places between there and
Colorado.
I got = a few=20 in mind Henry's 1910 camp and 1911 fort, Fort Hall, Fort Bridger,& =
Pine=20 Dale Museum Of the Mountain Man. May be just good places to stop and =
think.=20
Thanks Roadkill ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C0FC2B.7E0C4320-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM National Date: 24 Jun 2001 01:25:32 -0500 Roadkill, If you're taking a northerly route; I enjoy the Lander Cut-off across the Grey's River range. Allow a little extra time. Cheese in the Star Valley is quite tasty. The Elk antler arch across the highway in Afton, WY is worth seeing. John... At 08:50 PM 6/23/01 -0400, you wrote: >Going to Idaho Got any sugestions for must see places between there and >Colorado. >I got a few in mind Henry's 1910 camp and 1911 fort, Fort Hall, Fort >Bridger,& >Pine Dale Museum Of the Mountain Man. May be just good places to stop and >think. >Thanks Roadkill If it ain't exactly right, it's wrong. john ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kim & Jen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM National Date: 24 Jun 2001 21:18:01 -0600 depent when you come this way, you could also stop at the 1838 rendezvous at riverton wyoming: june 29th till july 4th. we always have a good time and enjoy visiting with everybody jenaka ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 12:25 AM > Roadkill, > > If you're taking a northerly route; I enjoy the Lander Cut-off across the > Grey's River range. Allow a little extra time. > > Cheese in the Star Valley is quite tasty. > > The Elk antler arch across the highway in Afton, WY is worth seeing. > > John... > > > At 08:50 PM 6/23/01 -0400, you wrote: > >Going to Idaho Got any sugestions for must see places between there and > >Colorado. > >I got a few in mind Henry's 1910 camp and 1911 fort, Fort Hall, Fort > >Bridger,& > >Pine Dale Museum Of the Mountain Man. May be just good places to stop and > >think. > >Thanks Roadkill > > If it ain't exactly right, it's wrong. > john > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: omething different Date: 24 Jun 2001 21:53:39 -0500 http://www.beepworld.de/members4/fireworkx/woerterbuch.htm ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM National Date: 24 Jun 2001 22:36:41 -0600 At 08:50 PM 06/23/2001 EDT, you wrote: >Going to Idaho Got any sugestions for must see places between there and >Colorado. >I got a few in mind Henry's 1910 camp and 1911 fort, Fort Hall, Fort Bridger,& > Pine Dale Museum Of the Mountain Man. May be just good places to stop and >think. >Thanks Roadkill When you head west from Pinedale, you'll overlook the site of several of the Green River rendezvous. There's an overlook point there. A bit further down the road you take about a 3 mile cut off to Bonneville's fort site. Worth the short hop for a historical spot and site of one of the original rendezvous. From there go west down the Hoback, you'll go through Jackson's Little Hole, and when you reach the Snake River, turn north and go to Jackson's big hole and visit. Then head over the Teton Pass that every mountain man who travelled this bit of the country went over, and you'll drop into Pierre's Hole, now known as the Teton Valley. There's some dispute about where the Battle of Pierre's Hole took place, but following Ferris and Wyeth's description, it's just west of Victor in Pierre's Hole. From there go north to Driggs and continue on. Just past Tetonia, there a "senic byway" that that and you'll go right past Camp Henry on Conant Creek. Our party has "diggin rights" to a nice patch of camas just north of there. This cut off will drop you off in Ashton, ID. Turn right there and go to Island Park and the Yale-Kilgore highway will get you the rest of the way to the doin's. Enjoy the trip, you're going through mountain man country the whole way, WAUGH! Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Trent Shue" Subject: MtMan-List: hist_text@xmission.com Date: 25 Jun 2001 12:59:21 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C0FD76.A6EAAE20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am looking for information about relatives WIlliam Leblanc and Simeon = Turley. I have found their names in the Guide to Hafen Biographies as = being mentioned in orginal series=20 "The Mountainmen and the Fur Trade of the Far West" Leblanc, William Volume V, Pages171-172=20 Turley, Simeon Volume VII, 301-314=20 Does anyone have a copy of these books or know where I might find them? = A copy of these pages would also be very much appreciated. This are the original books published by Arthur H Clark before 1972. = There is a new title that is very similar that does not contain the = information I am looking for. Thanks in advance for any help you can provide, Trent Shue ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C0FD76.A6EAAE20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am looking for = information=20 about relatives WIlliam Leblanc and Simeon Turley. I have = found their=20 names in the Guide to Hafen Biographies as being mentioned in orginal=20 series 
 
 "The Mountainmen = and the Fur=20 Trade of the Far West"

Leblanc, William Volume V, Pages171-172
Turley, Simeon   Volume VII, = 301-314

 Does=20 anyone have a copy of these books or know where I might find them? A = copy of=20 these pages would also be very much = appreciated.

 This are the = original books=20 published by Arthur H Clark before 1972. There is a new title that is = very=20 similar that does not contain the information I am looking = for.
 
Thanks in advance for any help you can = provide,
 
Trent = Shue
------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C0FD76.A6EAAE20-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Youth Presentation Date: 25 Jun 2001 18:32:55 EDT I have the opportunity to do a living history presentation during a week long YMCA camp in the San Bernardino Mountains. The groups will be about 10 campers each, twice a day, for an hour or so, and the campers are in the 8-11 age range. I have slated some Dutch Oven Cooking, flint and steel fire-starting, hands on display of primitive tools and weapons i.e. traps, flint knives, flintlocks, sundial, etc, but am looking for other ideas as well. Any suggestions? Thanks, Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Riverton WY Rendezvous Date: 25 Jun 2001 20:26:41 EDT --part1_f2.c088b3e.286930c1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone have more information on the rendezvous in Riverton Wy. Date and location? Thanks Roadkill --part1_f2.c088b3e.286930c1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone have more information on the rendezvous in Riverton Wy. Date and
location? Thanks Roadkill --part1_f2.c088b3e.286930c1_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Youth Presentation Date: 25 Jun 2001 18:05:02 -0700 Cordage (hand twisted, or using the simple cranked machine if available), and a selection of furs if available, always go over well with that age group. Pat Quilter -----Original Message----- Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 3:33 PM I have the opportunity to do a living history presentation during a week long YMCA camp in the San Bernardino Mountains. The groups will be about 10 campers each, twice a day, for an hour or so, and the campers are in the 8-11 age range. I have slated some Dutch Oven Cooking, flint and steel fire-starting, hands on display of primitive tools and weapons i.e. traps, flint knives, flintlocks, sundial, etc, but am looking for other ideas as well. Any suggestions? Thanks, Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Marc Stewart Subject: MtMan-List: E.P.R. Date: 25 Jun 2001 21:26:01 -0400 and for us stuck up here in the northeast, piggsburgh.. flash floods and al that... i can finally catch up on the list reading. anyone going to the eastern primitive in Sept? I'll be going as well. I'm sure you'll see me. I'll be the one circling overhead in the helo doing the aerial photography. My apologies in advance for the 20th century intrusion but keep in mind that the money will help fund more Easterns. I hope to meet you all there. Marc ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "cd252" Subject: MtMan-List: Newby here...question please Date: 25 Jun 2001 21:24:54 -0400 Greetings all, I am new to this board and primitive living in general. I just wanted to say hi! I have learned alot already...reading the AMM message board archives on the net. My question is... are there any "primitive" events here in the East? I live in Northeastern Pennsylvania. Regards to all, Big Dave ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hist_text@xmission.com Date: 25 Jun 2001 22:04:20 EDT --part1_f4.bc281d4.286947a4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tret You local library might have the full set. An original set will cot over $1800 up to 2400 the reprints by Arthur Clark are coming out every two or three months for the next two to three years. About 55.00 each. Thanks Mark Roadkill Loader --part1_f4.bc281d4.286947a4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tret
You local library might have the full set. An original set will cot over
$1800 up to 2400 the reprints by Arthur Clark are coming out every two or
three months for the next two to three years. About 55.00 each.
Thanks Mark  Roadkill Loader --part1_f4.bc281d4.286947a4_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Newby here...question please Date: 25 Jun 2001 22:04:56 EDT Dave, Suggest you run a search for 'Mountain Man Rendezvous', and you will come up with events, as well as links pages to other sources. Also, the Smoke and Fire News and the Territorial Dispatch both publish lists of events across the country. Here are a couple of links that may help get you started. Hope to share a campfire with you soon, Barney RondyList pre-1840 American living history Reenactor.Net Main Historical Reenactment - Home Page Rondee Schedule ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Youth Presentation Date: 25 Jun 2001 20:01:19 -0700 (PDT) Ralph, Here are a couple of suggestions. A class on edible plants that are native to the area would be quite useful. Also how to field dress an animal and snares could also be quite useful. There should also be some fiberous plants in the area that could be used to make cordage and if so, a class on how to make cordage. Another useful skill to teach would be how to cook using only primative materials. Just a few other suggestions. Best Regards, Jerry Zaslow #1488 ________________________________________________________________________________ At 06:32 PM 06/25/2001 EDT, you wrote: >I have the opportunity to do a living history presentation during a week long >YMCA camp in the San Bernardino Mountains. The groups will be about 10 >campers each, twice a day, for an hour or so, and the campers are in the 8-11 >age range. > >I have slated some Dutch Oven Cooking, flint and steel fire-starting, hands >on display of primitive tools and weapons i.e. traps, flint knives, >flintlocks, sundial, etc, but am looking for other ideas as well. > >Any suggestions? Thanks, Barney > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Youth Presentation Date: 25 Jun 2001 23:38:48 EDT WOW! Thanks Jerry. Those are definitely worthwhile things to check out. I hope this note finds you and yours well, and I sure do miss seein' your shinin' smile! Ralph ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Youth Presentation Date: 25 Jun 2001 23:40:23 EDT OOPS!!! Sorry for that last post. Damm if those senior moments aren't coming more often! Ralph ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Youth Presentation Date: 25 Jun 2001 22:45:43 -0500 Barney, You've been around long enough for me to wonder if you aren't intentionally baiting me with this question? If you are portraying the pre-1840 mountain man era -- don't do dutch oven cooking. It would only help perpetuate the myth. If you are doing mid-period, then perhaps, but that documentation is still far from conclusive. If you are doing Cowboy, and late nineteenth century Sodbuster, then you can be accurate in portrayal with modern camp oven cooking. If you are doing an early reflector or earth banked dutch oven please pardon my intrusion. It is not what most mean when they say dutch oven cooking. Pat is right a rope twisting machine is popular. It gets the kids involved --hands on. A simple craft project like making a decorated feather or a medicine bag can be done inexpensively and give the kids a real feeling of accomplishment. Eight to Eleven year olds can learn back braiding and finishing of a length of rope: a skill useful for the rest of their life. Teach basic knots half hitch, square, sheet bend, bowline &c. 100' coils of 3 strand twist 1/4" or 3/8" rope are pretty inexpensive. You don't have enough time to do it all. Pick what you can do best that teaches the most. John... At 06:32 PM 6/25/01 -0400, you wrote: >I have the opportunity to do a living history presentation during a week long >YMCA camp in the San Bernardino Mountains. The groups will be about 10 >campers each, twice a day, for an hour or so, and the campers are in the 8-11 >age range. > >I have slated some Dutch Oven Cooking, flint and steel fire-starting, hands >on display of primitive tools and weapons i.e. traps, flint knives, >flintlocks, sundial, etc, but am looking for other ideas as well. > >Any suggestions? Thanks, Barney > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Benjamin Franklin 1759 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Riverton WY Rendezvous Date: 25 Jun 2001 23:56:34 -0600 Roadkill, I think it runs over 4th of July. Check Muzzle Loader magazine, they usually have a ad for the ronnyvoo in it. Allen At 08:26 PM 06/25/2001 EDT, you wrote: >Does anyone have more information on the rendezvous in Riverton Wy. Date and >location? Thanks Roadkill >Does anyone have more information on the rendezvous in Riverton Wy. Date and >
location? Thanks Roadkill > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kim & Jen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Riverton WY Rendezvous Date: 26 Jun 2001 00:41:58 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0058_01C0FDD8.CE31B020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable go to www.1838rendezvous.com this is our homepage and you get allthe info you want, the segundos = phone number has changed though, but you can get him at this e-mail: kimanjen@wyoming.com thanks jenaka p.s. allen, are you going to show up this year? ----- Original Message -----=20 From: MarkLoader@aol.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 6:26 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Riverton WY Rendezvous Does anyone have more information on the rendezvous in Riverton Wy. = Date and=20 location? Thanks Roadkill=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0058_01C0FDD8.CE31B020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
go to www.1838rendezvous.com<= /DIV>
 
this is our homepage and you get allthe = info you=20 want, the segundos phone number has changed though, but you can get him = at this=20 e-mail:
kimanjen@wyoming.com
       =20 thanks
          =20 jenaka
p.s. allen, are you going to show up = this=20 year?
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 MarkLoader@aol.com
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 = 6:26 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = Riverton WY=20 Rendezvous

Does anyone = have more=20 information on the rendezvous in Riverton Wy. Date and
location? = Thanks=20 Roadkill ------=_NextPart_000_0058_01C0FDD8.CE31B020-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Youth Presentation Date: 26 Jun 2001 11:47:51 EDT In a message dated 6/25/01 8:47:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, kramer@kramerize.com writes: << to wonder if you aren't intentionally baiting me with this question? >> John, Thanks for the smile, but NO, I'm not baiting you, I was asking the question seriously. Dealing with kids that age is not my forte', and I was sure some of the guys would have great ideas. My biggest concern was dealing with the attention span of this age group. Don't forget I'm going to be doing an hour's worth of presentation to minds with a 15 minute (or in some cases, second) capacity! In that regard, the Directors of the camp made a specific request that I do some cast iron Dutch Oven cooking, specifically to prepare a dessert at the start of the presentation, let it bake during, then serve it at the end. So it will be. I am not restricted to the pre-1840 period, and my intent is to show, through comparison with modern tools, what was used in earlier times. It is also my intent to focus briefly on wilderness survival, but only as related to fire, shelter and possibly direction of travel. Yes, this all HAS to be PC, but sadly, the 'P' in this case is that disgusting word... politically. ;(. The ideas from you guys re: cordage are excellent, and that will become a part of the presentation, as it is not only fascinating to watch, but can definitely be a hands-on experience for the campers. I am going to make some lucets today, as I feel those will be a great interactive demo. If anybody in the Southern California area has a mechanical winder that I could use for the week, please let me know, and I will make arangements for the pick up and return of it. Please keep the ideas coming.......... Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John & Nancy McKee" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Youth Presentation Date: 26 Jun 2001 13:41:38 -0500 Barney, One thing that has always worked for me with that age group is to bring along a finished beaver pelt (or better yet one that is strung out on a willow hoop). If you ask real nice, maybe Short Step will let you borrow his buffalo robe to lay out all your gear for show and tell. Will the leaders of the group let you load and fire off your smoke pole (without ball, of course)? That really gets some wide eyes. YMOS, John ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 10:47 AM > In a message dated 6/25/01 8:47:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > kramer@kramerize.com writes: << to wonder if you aren't intentionally baiting > me with this question? >> > > John, Thanks for the smile, but NO, I'm not baiting you, I was asking the > question seriously. Dealing with kids that age is not my forte', and I was > sure some of the guys would have great ideas. > > My biggest concern was dealing with the attention span of this age group. > Don't forget I'm going to be doing an hour's worth of presentation to minds > with a 15 minute (or in some cases, second) capacity! > > In that regard, the Directors of the camp made a specific request that I do > some cast iron Dutch Oven cooking, specifically to prepare a dessert at the > start of the presentation, let it bake during, then serve it at the end. So > it will be. > > I am not restricted to the pre-1840 period, and my intent is to show, through > comparison with modern tools, what was used in earlier times. It is also my > intent to focus briefly on wilderness survival, but only as related to fire, > shelter and possibly direction of travel. > > Yes, this all HAS to be PC, but sadly, the 'P' in this case is that > disgusting word... politically. ;(. > > The ideas from you guys re: cordage are excellent, and that will become a > part of the presentation, as it is not only fascinating to watch, but can > definitely be a hands-on experience for the campers. I am going to make some > lucets today, as I feel those will be a great interactive demo. If anybody in > the Southern California area has a mechanical winder that I could use for the > week, please let me know, and I will make arangements for the pick up and > return of it. > > Please keep the ideas coming.......... Barney > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: correct headwear new post Date: 26 Jun 2001 18:27:11 EDT I had a question about proper(pc) headgear, and figured you all would be the best resource. Is a "bandana" appropriate headgear? I don't mean one of your daddy's red or blue ones like I carry 24/7, but a piece of cloth. if so, would I be ok with a square of broadcloth. I've heard or read somewhere that silk was also used. Any help in this would be most welcome. Thanks in advance. YMHS, Wade "Sleeps Loudly" Smith Boise,Id ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: need infor about baynton,wharton and morgan Date: 26 Jun 2001 18:26:02 EDT does anyone know of a website on baynton,wharton and morgan.Looking for infor on what morgan may have carried in his store a kaskaskia. thank you Traphand Rick Petzoldt Traphand@aol.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: correct headwear new post Date: 26 Jun 2001 19:13:23 EDT In a message dated 6/26/1 4:27:55 PM, WSmith4100@aol.com writes: <> Black silk a yard square was common from before Rev War times. RJames ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Youth Presentation Date: 26 Jun 2001 12:27:32 -0400 barny---if you want i can measure the wooden rope maker-twister one i have and try to give you a sketch or a verbal discription of it--- Nuff said "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: need infor about baynton,wharton and morgan Date: 26 Jun 2001 19:21:37 EDT Rick, Hope some of these will work.... The second and fourth looked promising, but it seems that a trip to a microfilm library might be the ticket. Barney Baynton, Wharton, and Morgan Papers, 1757-1787, in the Pennslvania State Archives PA State Archives - MG-19 - Scope and Content Note - Sequestered Baynton, Wharton & Morgan Papers The David Library of the American Revolution Account from Fort Chartres -1768 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Youth Presentation Date: 26 Jun 2001 19:17:03 -0700 Pat, Help me out. I'm leaving Thursday for the Nationals and I can' t find the directions to the doin's...I've lost the Mocassin Mail! Can I get you to Email me those directions? Or anyone else out there? Much appreciated. Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 6:05 PM > Cordage (hand twisted, or using the simple cranked machine if available), > and a selection of furs if available, always go over well with that age > group. > Pat Quilter > > -----Original Message----- > From: LivingInThePast@aol.com [mailto:LivingInThePast@aol.com] > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 3:33 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Youth Presentation > > > I have the opportunity to do a living history presentation during a week > long > YMCA camp in the San Bernardino Mountains. The groups will be about 10 > campers each, twice a day, for an hour or so, and the campers are in the > 8-11 > age range. > > I have slated some Dutch Oven Cooking, flint and steel fire-starting, hands > on display of primitive tools and weapons i.e. traps, flint knives, > flintlocks, sundial, etc, but am looking for other ideas as well. > > Any suggestions? Thanks, Barney > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DSJohn2@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: unsubscribe Date: 26 Jun 2001 23:33:27 EDT unsubscribe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Youth Presentation Date: 26 Jun 2001 23:58:48 EDT In a message dated 6/25/01 6:33:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LivingInThePast@aol.com writes: << c, but am looking for other ideas as well. >> If you can show then how dough was mixed "in the sack" by making a well, adding liquid and stirring with a stick tilla doguhball formed, then let them make "bannock" bread by twisting it over the end of a smooth green 1 inch limb and holding over coals, they will get a thrill out of that! Have squeeze butter and jelly on hand to fill it with!! Any questions, get with me offline. -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: correct headwear new post Date: 27 Jun 2001 00:09:52 EDT In a message dated 6/26/01 6:27:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, WSmith4100@aol.com writes: << I've heard or read somewhere that silk was also used. >> check the trade manifests. Silk cloth (if not bandanas) was listed on several I have seen. Anyone seen any authentic drawings or documentation of this stuff? A lot of the guys who portray even earlier periods...longhunter, farmer, militia from the F&I use linsey-woolsey or osnaburg bandanas. Be interested to know y'alls thoughts on this. -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dana Parker" Subject: MtMan-List: unsubscribe Date: 26 Jun 2001 23:28:13 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C0FE97.AB6AE4C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There are just too many emaios. They are clogging my mail box. I need = to unsubscribe from this format. If you have a weekly newsletter, I = would like to receive it. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C0FE97.AB6AE4C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There are just too many emaios.  = They are=20 clogging my mail box.  I need to unsubscribe from this = format.  If you=20 have a weekly newsletter, I would like to receive = it.
------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C0FE97.AB6AE4C0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Youth Presentation Date: 26 Jun 2001 21:41:19 -0700 I think it's all been in the T&LR. All I've got from the Moc Mail is a brief extract from Crazy's "Some One has to Get the Wood" notice from Jan 01. " The place will be on West Dry Creek, thirty-six miles east and a little north of Dubois, Idaho. Elevation is around 6700 ft." I'll have to dig up my own TLR. Let me know tomorrow if you don't find the T&LR. Pat -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 7:17 PM Pat, Help me out. I'm leaving Thursday for the Nationals and I can' t find the directions to the doin's...I've lost the Mocassin Mail! Can I get you to Email me those directions? Or anyone else out there? Much appreciated. Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 6:05 PM > Cordage (hand twisted, or using the simple cranked machine if available), > and a selection of furs if available, always go over well with that age > group. > Pat Quilter > > -----Original Message----- > From: LivingInThePast@aol.com [mailto:LivingInThePast@aol.com] > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 3:33 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Youth Presentation > > > I have the opportunity to do a living history presentation during a week > long > YMCA camp in the San Bernardino Mountains. The groups will be about 10 > campers each, twice a day, for an hour or so, and the campers are in the > 8-11 > age range. > > I have slated some Dutch Oven Cooking, flint and steel fire-starting, hands > on display of primitive tools and weapons i.e. traps, flint knives, > flintlocks, sundial, etc, but am looking for other ideas as well. > > Any suggestions? Thanks, Barney > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Youth Presentation Date: 27 Jun 2001 04:35:23 EDT In a message dated 6/26/01 8:59:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time, HikingOnThru@cs.com writes: << let them make "bannock" bread >> Thanks Compadre', another GREAT idea for the cooking theme the camp directors want me to lead with... Much appreciated. Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Youth Presentation Date: 27 Jun 2001 08:20:16 -0700 Pat, Thank you. I found my T&LR and, sure enough, there it was, directions and all. I'm all set to go, just short of cash. $200 just for gas!!! Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 9:41 PM > I think it's all been in the T&LR. All I've got from the Moc Mail is a brief > extract from Crazy's "Some One has to Get the Wood" notice from Jan 01. > " The place will be on West Dry Creek, thirty-six miles east and a little > north of Dubois, Idaho. Elevation is around 6700 ft." > I'll have to dig up my own TLR. > Let me know tomorrow if you don't find the T&LR. > Pat > > -----Original Message----- > From: Larry Huber [mailto:shootsprairie@hotmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 7:17 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Youth Presentation > > > Pat, > Help me out. I'm leaving Thursday for the Nationals and I can' t find the > directions to the doin's...I've lost the Mocassin Mail! Can I get you to > Email me those directions? Or anyone else out there? > Much appreciated. > Larry Huber > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pat Quilter" > To: > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 6:05 PM > Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Youth Presentation > > > > Cordage (hand twisted, or using the simple cranked machine if available), > > and a selection of furs if available, always go over well with that age > > group. > > Pat Quilter > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: LivingInThePast@aol.com [mailto:LivingInThePast@aol.com] > > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 3:33 PM > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: MtMan-List: Youth Presentation > > > > > > I have the opportunity to do a living history presentation during a week > > long > > YMCA camp in the San Bernardino Mountains. The groups will be about 10 > > campers each, twice a day, for an hour or so, and the campers are in the > > 8-11 > > age range. > > > > I have slated some Dutch Oven Cooking, flint and steel fire-starting, > hands > > on display of primitive tools and weapons i.e. traps, flint knives, > > flintlocks, sundial, etc, but am looking for other ideas as well. > > > > Any suggestions? Thanks, Barney > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM National Date: 27 Jun 2001 08:32:11 -0700 Allen, Is Fort Hall open on Fridays? I'll be passing through there on the way to the Nationals. Kinda like to stop in. Nice place? Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 9:36 PM > At 08:50 PM 06/23/2001 EDT, you wrote: > >Going to Idaho Got any sugestions for must see places between there and > >Colorado. > >I got a few in mind Henry's 1910 camp and 1911 fort, Fort Hall, Fort Bridger,& > > Pine Dale Museum Of the Mountain Man. May be just good places to stop and > >think. > >Thanks Roadkill > > When you head west from Pinedale, you'll overlook the site of several of the > Green River rendezvous. There's an overlook point there. A bit further > down the road you take about a 3 mile cut off to Bonneville's fort site. > Worth the short hop for a historical spot and site of one of the original > rendezvous. From there go west down the Hoback, you'll go through Jackson's > Little Hole, and when you reach the Snake River, turn north and go to > Jackson's big hole and visit. Then head over the Teton Pass that every > mountain man who travelled this bit of the country went over, and you'll > drop into Pierre's Hole, now known as the Teton Valley. There's some > dispute about where the Battle of Pierre's Hole took place, but following > Ferris and Wyeth's description, it's just west of Victor in Pierre's Hole. > > From there go north to Driggs and continue on. Just past Tetonia, there a > "senic byway" that that and you'll go right past Camp Henry on Conant > Creek. Our party has "diggin rights" to a nice patch of camas just north of > there. This cut off will drop you off in Ashton, ID. Turn right there and > go to Island Park and the Yale-Kilgore highway will get you the rest of the > way to the doin's. > > Enjoy the trip, you're going through mountain man country the whole way, WAUGH! > > Allen > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Youth Presentation Date: 27 Jun 2001 10:12:59 -0700 When I drove to the Property, gas was running $1.50-$1.75 once you got out of California. But $200 is probably a reasonable allowance. -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 8:20 AM Pat, Thank you. I found my T&LR and, sure enough, there it was, directions and all. I'm all set to go, just short of cash. $200 just for gas!!! Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 9:41 PM > I think it's all been in the T&LR. All I've got from the Moc Mail is a brief > extract from Crazy's "Some One has to Get the Wood" notice from Jan 01. > " The place will be on West Dry Creek, thirty-six miles east and a little > north of Dubois, Idaho. Elevation is around 6700 ft." > I'll have to dig up my own TLR. > Let me know tomorrow if you don't find the T&LR. > Pat > > -----Original Message----- > From: Larry Huber [mailto:shootsprairie@hotmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 7:17 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Youth Presentation > > > Pat, > Help me out. I'm leaving Thursday for the Nationals and I can' t find the > directions to the doin's...I've lost the Mocassin Mail! Can I get you to > Email me those directions? Or anyone else out there? > Much appreciated. > Larry Huber > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Pat Quilter" > To: > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 6:05 PM > Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Youth Presentation > > > > Cordage (hand twisted, or using the simple cranked machine if available), > > and a selection of furs if available, always go over well with that age > > group. > > Pat Quilter > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: LivingInThePast@aol.com [mailto:LivingInThePast@aol.com] > > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 3:33 PM > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: MtMan-List: Youth Presentation > > > > > > I have the opportunity to do a living history presentation during a week > > long > > YMCA camp in the San Bernardino Mountains. The groups will be about 10 > > campers each, twice a day, for an hour or so, and the campers are in the > > 8-11 > > age range. > > > > I have slated some Dutch Oven Cooking, flint and steel fire-starting, > hands > > on display of primitive tools and weapons i.e. traps, flint knives, > > flintlocks, sundial, etc, but am looking for other ideas as well. > > > > Any suggestions? Thanks, Barney > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: need infor about baynton,wharton and morgan Date: 27 Jun 2001 14:37:06 EDT > does anyone know of a website on baynton,wharton and morgan.Looking for > infor on what morgan may have carried in his store a kaskaskia. I have the "Kaskaskia Records, 1778-1790" and also Alvord's "Illinois Country, 1673-1818" I recall the company being mentioned in the latter, but haven't finished reading either yet. Will do an index check and see what I can come up with. From the "Illinois Country" "The enterprise of Baynton, Wharton, and Morgan should not be estimated as a small trading venture, for it was one of the notable commercial undertakings of 18th century America. The partners soon had one hundred and fifty thousand dollars tied up in their Illinois project. "Some idea of the elaborateness of the preparation may be obtained from a confidential letter to one of the agents in Sept., 1766, and from correspondence with their partner, George Morgan. In the year 1766, they sent down the Ohio four convoys to Kaskaskia. For the fall expedition they forwarded to Pittsburg a large number of wagons and six hundred pack horses laden with merchandise. At Pittsburgh they maintained a force of carpenters and sawyers to build their boats, sixty five of which were ordered for November. According to a later estimate---the building of a boat cost 55 pounds, Pennsylvania currency; this was a dead loss since it cost more than the boat was worth to bring it back. The crew of such a boat consisted of 5 men, whose wages at four pounds per month for four months amounted to eighty pounds and provisions with rum to over fifty more. The whole expense of sending a boat to Kaskaskia, reckoned in pounds Sterling, was 115 pounds, 18 shillings, and 9 pence. The firm maintained over 300 boatmen on the Ohio at one time. Usually the convoys floated down the Ohio in early spring at the time of high water, but the company sometimes found it necessary to send them at other seasons. The merchandise carried to the Illinois included all manner of dry goods and clothing, shoes being in particular demand, household utensils for both kitchen and living room, musical instruments, wines, and rum --at one time the firm had 8000 gallons in their store -- guns and munitions, hair trinkets, brooches, earrings, crosses, brass piping, and wire; for the Indians, medals tomahawks, silver arm and wrist bands, half-moon gorgets, nose crosses, vermilion, and wampum." Need anything else? There's a whole chapter on them, but most has to do with Morgan. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: E.P.R. Date: 27 Jun 2001 14:53:15 EDT --part1_c0.165004da.286b859b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/25/01 9:24:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sardog1@att.net writes: > anyone going to the eastern primitive in Sept? > My wife and I will be there (we hope) for the first weekend only. For those that did not go two years ago when they first used this site IT IS A BEAUTIFUL place. Camp layout was and will be excellent with water, wood, port a johns conveniently located together at regular intervals. And the camp layout is real nice for strooling and visiting. We will be camped at the head of the road leading to the "Asylum" which puts us close to the music all night long, which we love. Y.M.O.S. C.T. Oakes --part1_c0.165004da.286b859b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/25/01 9:24:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sardog1@att.net
writes:


anyone going to the eastern primitive in Sept?


My wife and I will be there (we hope) for the first weekend only.  For those
that did not go two years ago when they first used this site IT IS A
BEAUTIFUL place.  Camp layout was and will be excellent with water, wood,
port a johns conveniently located together at regular intervals.  And the
camp layout is real nice for strooling and visiting.  

We will be camped at the head of the road leading to the "Asylum" which puts
us close to the music all night long, which we love.

Y.M.O.S.

C.T. Oakes --part1_c0.165004da.286b859b_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Newby here...question please Date: 27 Jun 2001 15:38:40 EDT --part1_c.17b734a7.286b9040_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/25/01 9:38:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cd252@ptd.net writes: > ... are there any "primitive" events here in the East? I live > in Northeastern Pennsylvania. > > Regards to all, > Big Dave > > That all depends on how far you are willing to drive for your fun. We just got back from a gathering of 1100 French and Indian War re-enactors up at Ft. Ticondaroga and that was a 6.5 hour drive for us but well worth it. The battles on Saturday and Sunday were great. So if you are willing to drive a little you could be at a pre 1840 event of some type almost every weekend. You really should subscribe to Smoke & Fire News for a comprehensive listing of events, only $18 for 12 issues, send to PO Box 166, Grand Rapids, Oh 43522. July 27-29 there is a Black Powder Shoot with Primative camp (and a modern area) at the Land of the Senecas just east of Watkins Glen NY. Aug 16-19th there is a Black Powder Shoot with Privative camp (and a modern area) at Whispering Pines which if memory serves is off of Route 15 by Arnot PA (N.E. Penn). Sept 8-15th, is the 6th Great North American Rendezvous, Ft. Loundon State Park (S.E. Penn), http//www.geocites.com/gnarnra/index.html Or phone Sam Mumma at 302-674-0977, E-mail scmummavi@juno.com 500 or so participants. Sept 21-30 is the NMLRA Eastern Primative Rendezvous in Doddridge County WV. Just south of Pittsburg. Largest rendezvous in North America with over 3,500 attending. Write for info to NRLHF, PO Box 100, Auburn, WV 26326 You should also plan on attending the Market Fair at Ft. Frederick Maryland next spring. Anything you need for your persona can be purchased at that event. It is held the last weekend of April and my wife and I will not miss it. See you around the campfire. Y.M.O.S. C.T. Oakes --part1_c.17b734a7.286b9040_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/25/01 9:38:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cd252@ptd.net
writes:

... are there any "primitive" events here in the East? I live
in Northeastern Pennsylvania.

Regards to all,
Big Dave



That all depends on how far you are willing to drive for your fun.  We just
got back from a gathering of 1100 French and Indian War re-enactors up at Ft.
Ticondaroga and that was a 6.5 hour drive for us but well worth it.  The
battles on Saturday and Sunday were great.  So if you are willing to drive a
little you could be at a pre 1840 event of some type almost every weekend.  
You really should subscribe to Smoke & Fire News for a comprehensive listing
of events, only $18 for 12 issues, send to PO Box 166, Grand Rapids, Oh
43522.  

July 27-29 there is a Black Powder Shoot with Primative camp (and a modern
area) at the Land of the Senecas just east of Watkins Glen NY.  

Aug 16-19th there is a Black Powder Shoot with Privative camp (and a modern
area) at Whispering Pines which if memory serves is off of Route 15 by Arnot
PA (N.E. Penn).

Sept 8-15th, is the 6th Great North American Rendezvous, Ft. Loundon State
Park (S.E. Penn), http//www.geocites.com/gnarnra/index.html
Or phone Sam Mumma at 302-674-0977, E-mail scmummavi@juno.com
500 or so participants.

Sept 21-30 is the NMLRA Eastern Primative Rendezvous in Doddridge County WV.  
Just south of Pittsburg.  Largest rendezvous in North America with over 3,500
attending.  Write for info to NRLHF, PO Box 100, Auburn, WV 26326

You should also plan on attending the Market Fair at Ft. Frederick Maryland
next spring.  Anything you need for your persona can be purchased at that
event.  It is held the last weekend of April and my wife and I will not miss
it.

See you around the campfire.

Y.M.O.S.

C.T. Oakes

--part1_c.17b734a7.286b9040_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Newby here...question please Date: 27 Jun 2001 16:10:00 EDT hey C.T., There was a blurb on one of the morning news shows about the F&I reenactment this past weekend. look like lot of fun. Good to get some national exposure too. ZZZZZZZZ W Smith Boise ID ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Newby here...question please Date: 27 Jun 2001 15:13:05 -0500 Big Dave, Get to know your local black powder group first. There is something going on everywhere. There is something going on somewhere every week of the year. Go to "GOOGLE" type in (the name of your state in place of Missouri. "Missouri Mountain Man Club" (leave off the quotes) I got 26,400 hits and in the first ten were lists of links to local resources. Vary the search with terms relevant to where you live, or blackpowder, historic, &c. "Missouri Blackpowder Club" got 292 hits. You will sometimes find connections to the local blackpowder shooters at gunshows, and to those with historic interest at historic sites, in particular over the holidays. Go somewhere historic this next big holiday, and talk to the people all dressed up in them funny clothes. If you don't know where the primitive rendezvouss' are: you are probably not ready to go. John... At 03:38 PM 6/27/01 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 6/25/01 9:38:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cd252@ptd.net >writes: > >>... are there any "primitive" events here in the East? I live >>in Northeastern Pennsylvania. >> >>Regards to all, >>Big Dave Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Youth Presentation Date: 27 Jun 2001 19:38:47 -0700 Pat, I am paying 1.47 per gallon regular in Salt Lake/Ogden. Ole ---------- >From: Pat Quilter >To: "'hist_text@lists.xmission.com'" >Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Youth Presentation >Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001, 10:12 AM > >When I drove to the Property, gas was running $1.50-$1.75 once you got out >of California. But $200 is probably a reasonable allowance. > >-----Original Message----- >From: Larry Huber [mailto:shootsprairie@hotmail.com] >Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 8:20 AM >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Youth Presentation > > >Pat, > >Thank you. I found my T&LR and, sure enough, there it was, directions and >all. I'm all set to go, just short of cash. $200 just for gas!!! > >Larry Huber > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Pat Quilter" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 9:41 PM >Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Youth Presentation > > >> I think it's all been in the T&LR. All I've got from the Moc Mail is a >brief >> extract from Crazy's "Some One has to Get the Wood" notice from Jan 01. >> " The place will be on West Dry Creek, thirty-six miles east and a little >> north of Dubois, Idaho. Elevation is around 6700 ft." >> I'll have to dig up my own TLR. >> Let me know tomorrow if you don't find the T&LR. >> Pat >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Larry Huber [mailto:shootsprairie@hotmail.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 7:17 PM >> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Youth Presentation >> >> >> Pat, >> Help me out. I'm leaving Thursday for the Nationals and I can' t find the >> directions to the doin's...I've lost the Mocassin Mail! Can I get you to >> Email me those directions? Or anyone else out there? >> Much appreciated. >> Larry Huber >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Pat Quilter" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 6:05 PM >> Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Youth Presentation >> >> >> > Cordage (hand twisted, or using the simple cranked machine if >available), >> > and a selection of furs if available, always go over well with that age >> > group. >> > Pat Quilter >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: LivingInThePast@aol.com [mailto:LivingInThePast@aol.com] >> > Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 3:33 PM >> > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> > Subject: MtMan-List: Youth Presentation >> > >> > >> > I have the opportunity to do a living history presentation during a week >> > long >> > YMCA camp in the San Bernardino Mountains. The groups will be about 10 >> > campers each, twice a day, for an hour or so, and the campers are in the >> > 8-11 >> > age range. >> > >> > I have slated some Dutch Oven Cooking, flint and steel fire-starting, >> hands >> > on display of primitive tools and weapons i.e. traps, flint knives, >> > flintlocks, sundial, etc, but am looking for other ideas as well. >> > >> > Any suggestions? Thanks, Barney >> > >> > ---------------------- >> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > >> > ---------------------- >> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: need infor about baynton,wharton and morgan Date: 27 Jun 2001 22:32:27 EDT Dave, Loved the infor. you sent me and yes I an looking into morgans store in kaskaskia. Any information on the goods he kept in the store would be helpful and and also, what he charged for the goods. Thanks! Traphand Rick Petzoldt Traphand@aol.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: AMM National Date: 27 Jun 2001 21:24:45 -0600 Larry, Far as I know they are. See ya soon! Allen At 08:32 AM 06/27/2001 -0700, you wrote: >Allen, > >Is Fort Hall open on Fridays? I'll be passing through there on the way to >the Nationals. Kinda like to stop in. Nice place? > >Larry Huber > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: need infor about baynton,wharton and morgan Date: 28 Jun 2001 10:24:50 EDT Traphand@aol.com writes: > Loved the infor. you sent me and yes I an looking into morgans store in > kaskaskia. Any information on the goods he kept in the store would be > helpful and and also, what he charged for the goods. Nothing more on the store or goods themselves, just stuff about Morgan and his underhanded dealings and the reasons for failure of the company. Here's another little tidbit I ran across in another source: "The Story of Illinois" by Theo. Pease. "As early as 1766 Illinois had begun a trade connection with the seaboard English colonies. In 1765, the shifty Samuel Wharton, of the Philadelphia firm of Baynton, Wharton, and Morgan, had listened to private representations from George Croghan that he would take a secret partnership with them and buy their goods at high prices to be given in the king's name as presents to the western Indians whom he was descending down the Ohio to pacify. The firm dreamed of 200% profits. Wharton tumbled all the firm's unsalable stock in dry goods, fine groceries, and other commodities, whether suited to the Indian trade or not, into wagons and sent them off by back roads to Pittsburgh. Although attempts were made to conceal the transaction, rival firms which were still barred from the Indian trade as a military measure protested to the British commander-in-chief, Major General Thomas Gage. Despite protestations of innocence from Wharton and Croghan, Gage made no attempt to conceal his opinion that both were lying." "meanwhile unsupervised wagoners had forded rivers with loads of chocolate and tea and had liberally helped themselves to the goods in their charge. The lawless Paxton Boys plundered what the wagoners had spared....a much reduced stock of damaged goods unsuited to the Indian trade had reached Pittsburgh too late and were wasted on fair and frail ladies by the rascally agents of the firm." "In 1766.......Morgan found himself at length in the Illinois Country with a poorly assorted lot of goods in competition with skilled French merchants who were in debt to New Orleans firms and therefore bound to deal with them." After not being able to secure the provisioning of the post because of differences and a dislike by LC John Reed, BW&M fell into difficulties and had to carry on its business under the supervision of creditors. In an attempt to generate funds, Morgan returned east and secured a quantity of Jamaican Negroes which he, in turn, sold to the Illinois French for 400 pounds each. Dave ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred Subject: MtMan-List: MtMan archives on Yahoogroups.com Date: 28 Jun 2001 10:26:00 -0600 With the kind permission of our list-owner, Dean Rudy, I have set up a list at yahoogroups.com. The new list has several purposes, none of which involve replacing this list. 1. Starting with the most recent posts, all posts to hist_text@lists.xmission.com (the list you're reading now) will be forwarded to the yahoogroups list for archive purposes. Although Dean keeps archives at xmission, they're not searchable. The yahoogroups archives are. 2. Until I started the MtMan@yahoogroups.com list, that name was available to any takers. That meant that, potentially, anyone could start a competing MtMan list on yahoogroups and cause a lot of confusion. With Yahoo's takeover of e-groups and onelist, yahoogroups is now one of the largest listservers on the net, hosting thousands of free e-mail lists. (BTW, there is already a list called "Mountain Man" on yahoogroups--it has to do with modern music.) 3. The yahoogroups list will be a backup for the main list. If, for some reason, the xmission server is no longer available for Dean's use, I'll turn over ownership of the yahoogroups list to him immediately, and it will become the new active list. For now, the MtMan@yahoogroups.com list is reserved for archives postings only. Of course, problems with xmission may occur without notice or warning (I know, it's happened on some other lists I've belonged to), so even if you decide not to join the yahoogroups list now, I suggest you keep this message on file just in case you need to join later. 4. For those who are not familiar with yahoogroups, list membership comes with a number of other nice features. The Files feature allows listmembers to post documents and images to yahoogroups, where they can be retrieved by other listmembers. (It would sure be great to see your smiling faces there, & posting files is surprisingly easy.) Listmembers can set up Polls with multiple-choice options on any subject of interest. A Calendar can remind members of upcoming events. Bookmarks can be stored & organized; I've already put up several bookmarks for you to have a look at. And a host of different Databases can be created to handle anything from Frequently Asked Questions to Recipes to Contact Lists. If you're not already a Yahoogroups member, go to www.yahoogroups.com and join the MtMan list there in order to access all these handy features. Hoping that this meets with your approval, I remain Your very humble & most obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan archives on Yahoogroups.com Date: 28 Jun 2001 12:55:33 -0400 Great idea...i just joined. I also have a group there under the name http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LodgeOwners There is also another great group that is a Seminar area on Native American Materials. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PlainsIndianSeminar This group deals in information on historic Material Culture. Lots of good information on both groups and now the new one. Linda Holley Great going Angela ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Youth Presentation / Recipes Date: 28 Jun 2001 16:53:48 EDT << In a message dated 6/26/01 8:59:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time, HikingOnThru@cs.com writes: let them make "bannock" bread >> >> Do you guys have any special secret receipts for bannock bread dough? Or crust for a cobbler? Or any other baked-over-an-open-fire concoctions that kids can do without becomming crispy critters? ;) Thanks, Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: MtMan archives on Yahoogroups.com Date: 28 Jun 2001 17:05:31 EDT Thanks Angela. You figured out the solution to the searchable database quandry. What an incredible tool this will provide for all of us in the future. And once again, thanks to you Dean, for everything you have done to hold it all together. I, for one, am deeply indebted. Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Youth Presentation / Recipes Date: 28 Jun 2001 17:14:36 EDT > Do you guys have any special secret receipts for bannock bread dough? Or > crust for a cobbler? Or any other baked-over-an-open-fire concoctions that > kids can do without becomming crispy critters? Barney, There is a fool-proof cobbler that kids of that age can make with little or no difficulty. 2 Cans of fruit (juice from one, discard or drink other) 1 box Jiffy Yellow Cake mix. (may need two boxes....depends on how big your fruit cans are) 1/4 stick of butter Preheat dutch oven. Melt butter and dump in fruit until it starts to bubble. Sprinkle cake mix over the top, cover and bake. Put more coals on top than on the bottom. When it brown on top, it's done. Good combos: Crushed pineapple and cherries with pecans. Sliced peaches Pears Fruit Cocktail Both pear and fruit cocktail are surprisingly good and taste different than you might expect. Try whatever combo is on sale at the supermarket. Generic fruit works as good as name brand for this purpose. I also made a Peanut Butter and Jelly Cobbler once that the kids loved. I can blueberries, I Jar Grape Jelly, and used crumbled Peanut Butter Granola bars as the crust. We always had the Tenderfoot Scouts make these as desserts for Parent's Nite and they earned part of their cooking requirement in the process. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred Subject: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan archives on Yahoogroups.com Date: 28 Jun 2001 16:05:54 -0600 Thank you to the folks who have already joined! I've detected one small flaw in my master plan, however; please choose the No Mail/Web Only option. Any other option will result in you getting duplicate MtMan postings--the originals from Dean's list, and then duplicates as I drop them to the Yahoogroups list for archiving. You'll still be able to access all the other great features of the MtMan yahoogroups list, including the ability to search the archive. If you've already joined, don't worry--I've reset your mail options so that you won't get duplicate postings, and I'll continue to check on that as we gain new yahoogroups members. Should the yahoogroups list ever become the main list, it will be very easy for the yahoogroups list-owner to set everyone to receiving mail from the yahoogroups list. Hope that made sense! If you're having any problems, drop me a line at agottfre@telusplanet.net. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jerry & Barbara Zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Youth Presentation Date: 28 Jun 2001 18:08:28 -0700 (PDT) Hi Ralph, Good to hear from you too. Hopefully I'll see you soon. If you would like any help on any of these items, give me a holler. Best Regards, Jerry ________________________________________________________________________________ At 11:38 PM 06/25/2001 EDT, you wrote: >WOW! Thanks Jerry. Those are definitely worthwhile things to check out. I >hope this note finds you and yours well, and I sure do miss seein' your >shinin' smile! Ralph > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Youth Presentation / Recipes Date: 29 Jun 2001 03:18:52 EDT Hey Barney , Just to go a bit farther on the cake topped cobbler. I ve become "famous" in my little world for my Dutch oven Peach Dump cake. I have a fairly large dutch so this recipe is a bit bigger. Goes like this: -2 cans of peaches Drain one...( just like the other recipe) -2 box cake mixes (yellow works great, but my favorite is French Vanilla) 2 cans Creme Soda Brown sugar cinnamon Nutmeg. line the Dutch with foil. dump in peaches. dust generously with cinnamon. sprinkle with nutmeg. Then crumble brown sugar over the top. anywhere from 1/2 to 1 cup of brown sugar depending on your sweet tooth. dump in cake mixes and break up the large chunks if any. Pour in soda from several inches above the dutch. extra foam makes a better topper. Bake it as you would any other dutch treat moree coals on top than on the bottom... bout 30-45 min depending on conditions. you will smell it when it starts to get done, even from 20 feet away. I know Iknow its not Period correct. but it makes damn good eats. had to beat my buddys back to keep em from eaten my dutch. Like I always say... "You want good food you ask a fat man" . I can say that.... I AM one ZZZZZZZZZZZ Wade "Sleeps Loudly " Smith P.S. this works good with fresh Blackberries too. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "ALAN AVERY" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan archives on Yahoogroups.com Date: 29 Jun 2001 09:51:32 -0700 Great job Angela! This will be an invaluable research tool! Bigfoot A. Avery ----- Original Message ----- Sent: June 28, 2001 3:05 PM > Thank you to the folks who have already joined! I've detected one small > flaw in my master plan, however; please choose the No Mail/Web Only option. > Any other option will result in you getting duplicate MtMan postings--the > originals from Dean's list, and then duplicates as I drop them to the > Yahoogroups list for archiving. You'll still be able to access all the > other great features of the MtMan yahoogroups list, including the ability > to search the archive. If you've already joined, don't worry--I've reset > your mail options so that you won't get duplicate postings, and I'll > continue to check on that as we gain new yahoogroups members. Should the > yahoogroups list ever become the main list, it will be very easy for the > yahoogroups list-owner to set everyone to receiving mail from the > yahoogroups list. > > Hope that made sense! If you're having any problems, drop me a line at > agottfre@telusplanet.net. > > Your humble & obedient servant, > Angela Gottfred > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Display Notification: Re: MtMan-List: Re: MtMan archives on Yahoogroups.com Date: 30 Jun 2001 12:29:23 -0600 This is a confirmation that the message has been displayed to the user. = Note: This is NOT a guarantee that the message has been read or understood.= ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: Yahoo groups Date: 30 Jun 2001 13:27:08 -0500 There is another, more specific group that may be of interest to history list members. You are welcome to visit my group at the link below. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html