From: "cd252" Subject: MtMan-List: Rifle question Date: 01 Jul 2001 19:24:34 -0400 Hi, What brand and or type of rifle is the most commonly seen at the most recent Rendezvous Also what percentage are cap locks??? Thanks, Big Dave ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Hawkengun@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: mtn men and the 4th of July Date: 01 Jul 2001 23:31:51 EDT I'm putting together a short talk on Independence Day on the frontier for our 4th of July doins at Bent's Old Fort. I need any good references I can find to the 4th from mtn. men, fur traders, Mexican War soldiers, Santa Fe Trail teamsters, etc. Much obliged, John Sweet ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Possum Hunter" Subject: MtMan-List: King's Mountain Cancelled! Date: 01 Jul 2001 23:37:24 -0400 In a surprise move, The South Carolina Department of Parks, Recreation and Tourism has cancelled the Muzzleloading Conclave that has been held in conjunction with Pioneer Days at King's Mountain State Park. Although the event has been held without incident for the past 24 consecutive years and has been very successful in generating badly needed revenue for the park, it was cancelled citing safety concerns for Park visitors and shooters. What is another good event on Sep 22 & 23 in the Eastern US? I have already got the time off from work. Possum ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rifle question Date: 02 Jul 2001 00:41:58 EDT In a message dated 7/1/01 7:25:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cd252@ptd.net writes: << What brand and or type of rifle is the most commonly seen at the most recent Rendezvous Also what percentage are cap locks??? Thanks, Big Dave >> Dave, In our group of CoHT living historians it is a hodge-podge. NO caplocks. Flint is good well into the RMFT era and after. Are you asking as an academic endeavor or are you trying to decide on the "best" gun for your reenacting needs? The reason I ask is I did the same thing and got tons of input. I ended up getting a Lyman trade rifle in flint...a good gun for reenacting later fur trade (RMFT), but I was in a hurry so I failed to take the advice of those who told me that getting an earlier PC gunstyle allows me to use it in that era and onward for all my reenacting needs!!!! Wish I had heeded and waited!!! I started out in RMFT and since gained an interest in F&I as well. Now I have to get another firelock to be PC...another generous chunk of change to be laid out!!! Could have avoided that if I had taken the time to research the periods and chosen a gun that would have been around then. Generally, if it was seen "back east" you could be safe using it out west (with some notable exceptions - please hold the artillery on answering that last statement, camp!). A good common "working rifle" or smoothbore of the earliest period you could see yourself reenacting would do good. For instance, a Brown Bess could be used for Rev. War and fur trade (yes, they did make their way west). There was even a Confederate regiment outfitted with Besses. I know that is a lot of advice, but if I can help someone not make an expensive mistake then so much the better. Of course, if you did make that mistake and HAD to get another ML gun - then so much the better!!! -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "De Santis, Nick" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Rifle question Date: 02 Jul 2001 16:00:47 -0700 Big Dave, Just another viewpoint. I shoot with a club in western Oregon that picked the pre 1840 trapper era as our period of choice. We have rifle and trade gun competitions as separate shooting classes. I think all of the trade gunners are shooting flints. The rifle shooters are about 80% caps. Although I have to say it can be wet a lot of the year around here and a hat brim full of water in your frizzen can ruin an otherwise awesome shot...not to mention it gives your friends an under their breath chuckle. Having said that, I was beat hands down by a couple of rifle flinters in a trail walk this spring that was more than a little damp with one of them recovering from a frizzen full of water - and I shoot the modern way! The other thing to consider is the cost. A pound of FFFF will last 5-10 years for priming at $7-10, and I am paying $4 per each 100 rounds with caps! If you like to cut your own patches and cast your own ball, you can be a real economical shooter by not using caps. But of course there are those lousy rocks to find and hammer on.... A question for all you shooters: How may of you are shooting with a "moose-milk" type of water soluble oil patch lube vs. the "bear-grease" patch lube? I have been using the "moose-milk" now for a while and find I have zero bore fouling for as many rounds as I want to go. I am strictly a black powder man. Any comments? Travler -----Original Message----- Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 4:25 PM Hi, What brand and or type of rifle is the most commonly seen at the most recent Rendezvous Also what percentage are cap locks??? Thanks, Big Dave ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jim gossett Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rifle question Date: 02 Jul 2001 19:32:57 -0500 About the guns and ignition . Flint or cap? Most guns in the East where probably cap by 1827. Jed Smith died in the late 1820"s carrying to caplock pistols. Read JOURNAL of a TRAPPER by Russell .Mid to late 1830's caplocks are used and mentioned. Also read Wah to ya and the Taos Trail it takes place in the late 1840's. Their guns are caplock the Indians use "the old style ignition'. As for me I have both and use both.That is the nice thing about the 1830s 40s and50s they are both correct be you trapper or trader etc. Gentleman James De Santis, Nick wrote: > Big Dave, > > Just another viewpoint. I shoot with a club in western Oregon that picked > the pre 1840 trapper era as our period of choice. We have rifle and trade > gun competitions as separate shooting classes. I think all of the trade > gunners are shooting flints. The rifle shooters are about 80% caps. > Although I have to say it can be wet a lot of the year around here and a hat > brim full of water in your frizzen can ruin an otherwise awesome shot...not > to mention it gives your friends an under their breath chuckle. Having said > that, I was beat hands down by a couple of rifle flinters in a trail walk > this spring that was more than a little damp with one of them recovering > from a frizzen full of water - and I shoot the modern way! > > The other thing to consider is the cost. A pound of FFFF will last 5-10 > years for priming at $7-10, and I am paying $4 per each 100 rounds with > caps! If you like to cut your own patches and cast your own ball, you can > be a real economical shooter by not using caps. But of course there are > those lousy rocks to find and hammer on.... > > A question for all you shooters: How may of you are shooting with a > "moose-milk" type of water soluble oil patch lube vs. the "bear-grease" > patch lube? I have been using the "moose-milk" now for a while and find I > have zero bore fouling for as many rounds as I want to go. I am strictly a > black powder man. Any comments? > > Travler > > -----Original Message----- > From: cd252 [mailto:cd252@ptd.net] > Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 4:25 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Rifle question > > Hi, > > What brand and or type of rifle is the most commonly seen at the most recent > Rendezvous > > Also what percentage are cap locks??? > > Thanks, > Big Dave > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dejim55@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rifle question Date: 02 Jul 2001 20:17:39 EDT --part1_116.11fa325.28726923_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BIG DAVE I SHOOT A TULLE 62 CAL SMOOTH BORE I PRIME MY PAN WITH THE SAME POWDER THAT IS IN MY HORN(FF) I USE SPITE AND ANY GOOD COTTON CLOTH I CAN GET MY HANDS ON I CAN SHOOT WITH THE BEST OF THEM BUT MOST SHOOTERS I SEE AT THE VOSS USE CAP LOCKS (85%) AND THAT IS OK IF THAT IS ALL YOU WANT TO DO. JIM#1798 --part1_116.11fa325.28726923_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BIG DAVE
I SHOOT A TULLE 62 CAL SMOOTH BORE  I PRIME MY PAN WITH  THE SAME POWDER THAT
IS IN MY HORN(FF) I USE SPITE  AND ANY GOOD COTTON CLOTH I CAN GET MY HANDS
ON   I CAN SHOOT WITH THE BEST OF THEM BUT  MOST  SHOOTERS I SEE AT THE VOSS
USE CAP LOCKS (85%) AND THAT IS OK IF THAT IS ALL YOU WANT TO DO.  

               JIM#1798 --part1_116.11fa325.28726923_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mtn men and the 4th of July Date: 02 Jul 2001 19:05:28 -0600 John, Here are some references for the 4th and it's happenings: "Journal of a Mountain Man", pg. 89 and 262 James Clyman "Down the Santa Fe Trail and in to Mexico", 40-41 Susan Magofflin You might also check on the rendezvoius which were going at that time and the history of Independence Rock. Hope it is not too hot for you down there. Bent's can be that way. mike. Hawkengun@aol.com wrote: > I'm putting together a short talk on Independence Day on the frontier for our > 4th of July doins at Bent's Old Fort. I need any good references I can find > to the 4th from mtn. men, fur traders, Mexican War soldiers, Santa Fe Trail > teamsters, etc. > > Much obliged, > > John Sweet > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hist_text@xmission.com Date: 02 Jul 2001 19:18:23 -0600 --------------F4DB84A56AC46220BAA4FDEA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Trent, You can find more about these men by going to the AMM web site and finding the "Names of People in the West during the Fur Trade", there should be few more pages on them there. If you can't find the location, let me know and I'll get the address to you. mike. Trent Shue wrote: > I am looking for information about relatives WIlliam Leblanc and > Simeon Turley. I have found their names in the Guide to Hafen > Biographies as being mentioned in orginal series "The Mountainmen and > the Fur Trade of the Far West" > Leblanc, William Volume V, Pages171-172 > Turley, Simeon Volume VII, 301-314 > Does anyone have a copy of these books or know where I might find > them? A copy of these pages would also be very much appreciated. This > are the original books published by Arthur H Clark before 1972. There > is a new title that is very similar that does not contain the > information I am looking for. Thanks in advance for any help you can > provide, Trent Shue --------------F4DB84A56AC46220BAA4FDEA Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Trent,
    You can find more about these men by going to the AMM web site and
finding the "Names of People in the West during the Fur Trade", there should
be few more pages on them there. If you can't find the location, let me know and
I'll get the address to you.
                                        mike.

Trent Shue wrote:

I am looking for information about relatives WIlliam Leblanc and Simeon Turley. I have found their names in the Guide to Hafen Biographies as being mentioned in orginal series  "The Mountainmen and the Fur Trade of the Far West" 
Leblanc, William Volume V, Pages171-172

Turley, Simeon   Volume VII, 301-314
 Does anyone have a copy of these books or know where I might find them? A copy of these pages would also be very much appreciated. This are the original books published by Arthur H Clark before 1972. There is a new title that is very similar that does not contain the information I am looking for. Thanks in advance for any help you can provide, Trent Shue
--------------F4DB84A56AC46220BAA4FDEA-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Youth Presentation Date: 02 Jul 2001 19:23:12 -0600 Barney, One thing which was a great hit when Bill K. and I were doing museum demos was a old Indian game. Two people stood on flat rocks about 10 feet apart and they held on to a rope and each tried to pull / trick the other to fall off their rock. Or make them let go of it. Quite a strategy game. Lots of fun.You can make a person fall in surprisingly many ways. If it sounds confusing, email off list. mike. LivingInThePast@aol.com wrote: > I have the opportunity to do a living history presentation during a week long > YMCA camp in the San Bernardino Mountains. The groups will be about 10 > campers each, twice a day, for an hour or so, and the campers are in the 8-11 > age range. > > I have slated some Dutch Oven Cooking, flint and steel fire-starting, hands > on display of primitive tools and weapons i.e. traps, flint knives, > flintlocks, sundial, etc, but am looking for other ideas as well. > > Any suggestions? Thanks, Barney > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: RE: MtMan-List: Rifle question Date: 02 Jul 2001 23:50:53 EDT In a message dated 7/2/1 5:06:41 PM, nick.de.santis@intel.com writes: <> How about just using pre-1840 grease or spit patches like the originals?? RJames ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: hist_text@xmission.com Date: 03 Jul 2001 00:00:19 EDT In a message dated 7/2/1 7:26:18 PM, amm1616@earthlink.net writes: << Leblanc, William Volume V, Pages171-172 > Turley, Simeon Volume VII, 301-314 > Does anyone have a copy of these books or know where I might find > them? A copy of these pages would also be very much appreciated.>> Since you are AMM you should know that the AMM Museum Library purchased an all-but-complete set about 20 years ago. You as a member are entitled to access to it. Richard James hvrno #79 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: rifle question Date: 03 Jul 2001 07:05:39 -0500 Big Dave asked, BD, your question is going to open up a slew of opinions. The answer depends on a lot of things. Like what type r'vous? Where is it being held [i.e. Wyoming or Virginia], etc. You see everything at r'vous, Ky/Penn styles, Hawken/Leman, lots more smoothbores in recent years. And, again depending on what kind of event you may or may not see rifles that have a "brand" but mostly custom made. I would suggest you try not to copy the crowd, do yer own thing. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: lubes Date: 03 Jul 2001 07:13:52 -0500 Traveler The question of proper lubes has been kicked around endlessly. Everyone has their favorite. Moose milk, in its many variations, has remained popular for decades. Stick with what works for you. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Hawkengun@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mtn men and the 4th of July Date: 03 Jul 2001 11:22:52 EDT Thanks for the references... John ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Youth Presentation Date: 03 Jul 2001 15:45:57 EDT Just wanted to let you guys know that the program is coming together, and will include, as time allows: 1) Passing around furs, trade beads and period accoutrements, 2) Demonstrations of fire starting (flint & steel and bow-drill), and 3) Making cordage and knots. All going on while baking a Dutch oven dessert (which I hated to include for PC reasons, but was requested by the Director). To Wade, Dave, C. Kent, Hawk, John K, John M, Jerry, Pat, Ray and Mike: THANKS FOR YOUR HELP! Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: need infor about baynton,wharton and morgan Date: 03 Jul 2001 20:49:09 -0600 Dave, Would love to find out more about the records. My family settled in the "American Bottoms" in 1782. One of five white, but non Eglish families to do so. But it seems that they did alot around Bellefontane (today's Waterloo, Il). Where are the records kept? Any possibility that a James Moore or Samuel Moore turned up in them? Samuel was one of George Rogers Clark's spies for his raids on the three forts. Any help appreciated. mike. ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: > Traphand@aol.com writes: > > Loved the infor. you sent me and yes I an looking into morgans store in > > kaskaskia. Any information on the goods he kept in the store would be > > helpful and and also, what he charged for the goods. > > Nothing more on the store or goods themselves, just stuff about Morgan and > his underhanded dealings and the reasons for failure of the company. Here's > another little tidbit I ran across in another source: "The Story of Illinois" > by Theo. Pease. > > "As early as 1766 Illinois had begun a trade connection with the seaboard > English colonies. In 1765, the shifty Samuel Wharton, of the Philadelphia > firm of Baynton, Wharton, and Morgan, had listened to private representations > from George Croghan that he would take a secret partnership with them and buy > their goods at high prices to be given in the king's name as presents to the > western Indians whom he was descending down the Ohio to pacify. The firm > dreamed of 200% profits. Wharton tumbled all the firm's unsalable stock in > dry goods, fine groceries, and other commodities, whether suited to the > Indian trade or not, into wagons and sent them off by back roads to > Pittsburgh. Although attempts were made to conceal the transaction, rival > firms which were still barred from the Indian trade as a military measure > protested to the British commander-in-chief, Major General Thomas Gage. > Despite protestations of innocence from Wharton and Croghan, Gage made no > attempt to conceal his opinion that both were lying." > > "meanwhile unsupervised wagoners had forded rivers with loads of chocolate > and tea and had liberally helped themselves to the goods in their charge. > The lawless Paxton Boys plundered what the wagoners had spared....a much > reduced stock of damaged goods unsuited to the Indian trade had reached > Pittsburgh too late and were wasted on fair and frail ladies by the rascally > agents of the firm." > > "In 1766.......Morgan found himself at length in the Illinois Country with a > poorly assorted lot of goods in competition with skilled French merchants who > were in debt to New Orleans firms and therefore bound to deal with them." > > After not being able to secure the provisioning of the post because of > differences and a dislike by LC John Reed, BW&M fell into difficulties and > had to carry on its business under the supervision of creditors. In an > attempt to generate funds, Morgan returned east and secured a quantity of > Jamaican Negroes which he, in turn, sold to the Illinois French for 400 > pounds each. > > Dave > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: need infor about baynton,wharton and morgan-Now Moore Date: 04 Jul 2001 00:37:09 EDT > Would love to find out more about the records.=20 Mike, As the saying goes, "I'm Paul Harvey and I've got news for you." >My family settled in the "American Bottoms" in 1782. One of five white, but= =20 non Eglish=20 > families to do so. But it seems that they did alot around Bellefontane=20 In 1779, Bellefontaine, the first permanent village of purely English=20 speaking men north of the Ohio River, was settled. It received an increase=20 in population in 1781, after the abandonment of Ft. Jefferson at the "Iron=20 Banks." Prominent among these pioneers were James Moore, Henry and Nicholas= =20 Smith, Shadrach Bond (uncle of the 1st governor of IL), William Oglesby, and= =20 Robert Watts. (Alvord, "The Illinois Country) Capt. James Moore was the leader of the Americans who settled at=20 Bellefontaine. Reynolds says (p. 96) that he came from Maryland, and that h= e=20 was employed by Gabriel Cerr=E9 to trade with the Indians in Tennessee. He=20 died in 1788. (see vol ii., 349) Several of his children moved to Missouri.= =20 (Houck, "History of Mo., Index) Alvord, "Kaskaskia Records" mentions Moore several times. He is listed in a= =20 couple of census, as are his children. Mention is made of James Jr., John,=20 Milton, William, and Enoch. Also James, sent as commissary, signs contract=20 with B. Tardiveau, writes a memorial to Congress, and petitions Court at=20 Kaskaskia. Alvord, "Cahokia Records" gives further family heritage, and has his will an= d=20 estate listing. > Where are the records kept?=20 Contact Illinois Historical Society. Books written by Alvord and Pease are=20 being republished by the University of Illinois Press. The ones I have are=20 circa 1900-1925 and were written for the Illinois Centennial. They are=20 pretty pricey in 1st edition form. We are approaching the Bicentennial and=20 renewed interest is leading to many early unpublished manuscripts being=20 printed. Moores are mentioned in: Alvord, "The Illinois Country, 1673-1818 Alvord, "Kaskaskia Records, 1778-1790 Alvord, "Cahokia Records, 1778-1790 >Any possibility Samuel Moore turned up in them?=20 > Samuel was one of George Rogers Clark's spies for > his raids on the three forts.=20 Different spelling. Speaking of GRC........."in 1777 he had sent two spies,= =20 S. More and B. Linn, to Kaskaskia to investigate the situation. They=20 remained in the village some time, giving themselves out as hunters; but the= y=20 failed to get into communication with the leaders of the opposition to=20 Rocheblave, because Clark had not informed even his spies of his purpose." Clark's memoirs, letters and journals have also been published into one=20 volume, but I don't have it. You might be able to obtain some of the above=20 books through interlibrary loan as well. Dave ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: MtMan-List: records Date: 04 Jul 2001 06:45:24 -0600 Dave, Thanks very much for the info. I have been back twice to do some research but didn't know about the records, I will get me a copy. The State Historical Soc. in Springfield also had some early books which gave me some new light on my family. The family is lucky to have the spring (Bellefontaine) still around, but it is not kept up, a small cemetary with James and his family graves in it, along with a small monument telling about the family there and a 1/2 mile section on a old trail which is all that is not plowed up or paved over. The time frame and where they lived didn't have much local goverment- so records and good information is hard to find. I know it was hard life where they settled. Nice to have ties to history in the family, but isn't that what history is- a collecton of personal experiences tied together to form a over all view point? Thanks again Dave. mike. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rifle question Date: 04 Jul 2001 07:41:07 -0700 Dave, There is no one rifle. What do you like but mostly what period and what you portray. Flintlock in my area 30% cap lock 70% YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "cd252" >To: >Subject: MtMan-List: Rifle question >Date: Sun, Jul 1, 2001, 4:24 PM > >Hi, > >What brand and or type of rifle is the most commonly seen at the most recent >Rendezvous > >Also what percentage are cap locks??? > > >Thanks, >Big Dave > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck_conner@email.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mtn men and the 4th of July Date: 04 Jul 2001 21:59:32 +0800 Independence Day Fourth of July Being Independence Day 2001, Let's take a look at what our forefather's were up to on the Upper Missouri 1805. With the portage behind them, the Corps of Discovery celebrated their second Fourth of July of the journey with a meal of beans, suet dumplings, and heaping portions of buffalo meat, a “very comfortable dinner,” Lewis wrote. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ We had no just cause to covet the sumptuous feasts of our countrymen on this day......... . We have conceived our party sufficiently small and therefore have concluded not to dispatch a canoe with a part of the men to St. Louis as we had intended early in the spring. We fear also that such a measure might possibly discourage those who would be in such case remain, and might possibly hazzard the fate of the expedition................ MERIWETHER LEWIS July 4th. A beautiful, clear, pleasant warm morning....It being the 4th of Independence, we drank the last of our Spirits.... The fiddle [was] put in order, and the party amused themselves dancing all the evening until about 10 oClock in a jovi[a]l manner. JOHN ORDWAY ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Their supply of whiskey was running low, but the captains let the men finish it off as “they continued their mirth with songs and festive jokes and were extremely merry until late at night”. They were was behind schedule. And off in the distance, they could now see the mountains that awaited them. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The mountains to the N.W. and West of us are still entirely covered [with snow], are white and glitter with the reflection of the sun. I do not believe that the clouds that pervale at this season of the year reach the summits of those lofty mountains; and if they do the probability is that they deposit snow only, for there has been no p[er]ceptable diminution of the snow which they contain since we first saw them. I have thought it probable that these mountains migth have derived their appellation of SHINEING MOUNTAINS from their glittering appearance when the sun shines in certain directions on the snow which covers them. WILLIAM CLARK ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I wonder how many of the hist_list camped in the Yellowstone area this year have seen these SHINEING MOUNTAINS as did William Clark, Meriwether Lewis and their group did a few years before ! Have a safe and enjoyable 4th. -- Take care, Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ AMM ~ LENAPE ~ NRA ~ HRD ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/conner1/ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ "Rival the best - Surpass the rest". ___________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Make PC-to-Phone calls with Net2Phone. Sign-up today at: http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/link.cgi?121 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mtn men and the 4th of July Date: 04 Jul 2001 10:49:57 EDT From blistering Boise, Happy 4th to all Thanks Buck ZZZZZZZZZ Wade Sleeps Loudly Smith ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Steve Banks" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: need infor about baynton,wharton and morgan Date: 04 Jul 2001 10:57:12 -0600 Mike, Here are a couple of web sites you might try: (usgenweb.com ) This is arranged by state, then by county. It is a collection of vital statistics of the county from the county clerk's office. These records go back to the beginnings of record keeping. You may find some holes but for the most part they are pretty complete. Another is (cyndislist.com) This list can direct you to names, military records etc. It is more of a resouce search engine, but is quite complete. Good luck! Steve B. ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 8:49 PM > Dave, > Would love to find out more about the records. My family settled > in the "American Bottoms" in 1782. One of five white, but non Eglish families > to do so. But it seems that they did alot around Bellefontane (today's Waterloo, > Il). Where are the records kept? Any possibility that a James Moore or Samuel > Moore turned up in them? Samuel was one of George Rogers Clark's spies for > his raids on the three forts. Any help appreciated. > mike. > > ThisOldFox@aol.com wrote: > > > Traphand@aol.com writes: > > > Loved the infor. you sent me and yes I an looking into morgans store in > > > kaskaskia. Any information on the goods he kept in the store would be > > > helpful and and also, what he charged for the goods. > > > > Nothing more on the store or goods themselves, just stuff about Morgan and > > his underhanded dealings and the reasons for failure of the company. Here's > > another little tidbit I ran across in another source: "The Story of Illinois" > > by Theo. Pease. > > > > "As early as 1766 Illinois had begun a trade connection with the seaboard > > English colonies. In 1765, the shifty Samuel Wharton, of the Philadelphia > > firm of Baynton, Wharton, and Morgan, had listened to private representa tions > > from George Croghan that he would take a secret partnership with them and buy > > their goods at high prices to be given in the king's name as presents to the > > western Indians whom he was descending down the Ohio to pacify. The firm > > dreamed of 200% profits. Wharton tumbled all the firm's unsalable stock in > > dry goods, fine groceries, and other commodities, whether suited to the > > Indian trade or not, into wagons and sent them off by back roads to > > Pittsburgh. Although attempts were made to conceal the transaction, rival > > firms which were still barred from the Indian trade as a military measure > > protested to the British commander-in-chief, Major General Thomas Gage. > > Despite protestations of innocence from Wharton and Croghan, Gage made no > > attempt to conceal his opinion that both were lying." > > > > "meanwhile unsupervised wagoners had forded rivers with loads of chocolate > > and tea and had liberally helped themselves to the goods in their charge. > > The lawless Paxton Boys plundered what the wagoners had spared....a much > > reduced stock of damaged goods unsuited to the Indian trade had reached > > Pittsburgh too late and were wasted on fair and frail ladies by the rascally > > agents of the firm." > > > > "In 1766.......Morgan found himself at length in the Illinois Country with a > > poorly assorted lot of goods in competition with skilled French merchants who > > were in debt to New Orleans firms and therefore bound to deal with them." > > > > After not being able to secure the provisioning of the post because of > > differences and a dislike by LC John Reed, BW&M fell into difficulties and > > had to carry on its business under the supervision of creditors. In an > > attempt to generate funds, Morgan returned east and secured a quantity of > > Jamaican Negroes which he, in turn, sold to the Illinois French for 400 > > pounds each. > > > > Dave > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mtn men and the 4th of July Date: 04 Jul 2001 12:35:38 -0600 > Independence Day > Fourth of July > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > I wonder how many of the hist_list camped in the Yellowstone area this year have seen these SHINEING MOUNTAINS as did William Clark, Meriwether Lewis and their group did a few years before ! > Have a safe and enjoyable 4th. Take care, Buck Conner Hi Buck, I can report that I have. As recently our my return from Fort Union. Recent snow on the Beartooth Mountains shined on June 18, 2001. The Big Horns were outstanding also. As well as the Crazy Mountains, the Little Belts, the Snowies and more. Snow fall was down until the June blankets of snow fell from the Bitter Roots to the Big Horns. I have a lot of shineing mountain pictures ya all might enjoying seeing. Cheers, Walt ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Youth Presentation Date: 06 Jul 2001 15:02:32 -0700 This game was played at the Fort Snelling July reenactment of the sale of the Columbia Fur Co. to American Fur. The post variation was to stand on nail kegs. Be sure the ground is soft! Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 6:23 PM > Barney, > One thing which was a great hit when Bill K. and I were doing museum > demos was a old Indian game. Two people stood on flat rocks about 10 > feet apart and they held on to a rope and each tried to pull / trick the > other to fall off their rock. Or make them let go of it. Quite a strategy game. > Lots of fun.You can make a person fall in surprisingly many ways. If it sounds > confusing, email off list. > mike. > > LivingInThePast@aol.com wrote: > > > I have the opportunity to do a living history presentation during a week long > > YMCA camp in the San Bernardino Mountains. The groups will be about 10 > > campers each, twice a day, for an hour or so, and the campers are in the 8-11 > > age range. > > > > I have slated some Dutch Oven Cooking, flint and steel fire-starting, hands > > on display of primitive tools and weapons i.e. traps, flint knives, > > flintlocks, sundial, etc, but am looking for other ideas as well. > > > > Any suggestions? Thanks, Barney > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rifle question Date: 06 Jul 2001 15:25:37 -0700 Just to add to what could become a real "party" on this question, a correction: Most guns MADE in the East in 1827 were probably caplock ignition but by overwhelming number most guns USED in the East were Flintlock. The "old" ignition system was in production for many decades before the switch and those good old boys didn't replace anything that worked well for the latest fad. The new ignition was also comparatively expensive until usage in later decades made the cost universally affordable. Brigade leaders like Smith and Carson could afford the cost...unless you consider Smith losing his life due to fumbling with caps too great a cost. The military was certainly slow to make the change. The Texas war of Independence was conducted with Flintlocks as was the Mexican War. When the British Enfield replaced the tried and trued Brown Bess, the Americans followed suit with their Springfield just in time for the Civil War. And even though many volunteer units started the war with Flintlocks, I consider the military crossover to caplocks the official demise of the Flintlock era. Just as an interesting aside on current flintlock use among Mountain Men, at the recent AMM National Rendezvous last week twenty men stood in line to salute the flag on the 4th of July. Concerned about pan flash, the shooter next to me asked if I was shooting a flinter. I wasn't the only one who chuckled. ALL twenty men were shooting rocklocks including the person who inquired. A caplock shooter in that group is a real rare animal indeed. Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 5:32 PM > About the guns and ignition . Flint or cap? Most guns in the East where > probably cap by 1827. Jed Smith died in the late 1820"s carrying to caplock > pistols. Read JOURNAL of a TRAPPER by Russell .Mid to late 1830's caplocks are > used and mentioned. Also read Wah to ya and the Taos Trail it takes place in the > late 1840's. Their guns are caplock the Indians use "the old style ignition'. As > for me I have both and use both.That is the nice thing about the 1830s 40s > and50s they are both correct be you trapper or trader etc. Gentleman > James > > De Santis, Nick wrote: > > > Big Dave, > > > > Just another viewpoint. I shoot with a club in western Oregon that picked > > the pre 1840 trapper era as our period of choice. We have rifle and trade > > gun competitions as separate shooting classes. I think all of the trade > > gunners are shooting flints. The rifle shooters are about 80% caps. > > Although I have to say it can be wet a lot of the year around here and a hat > > brim full of water in your frizzen can ruin an otherwise awesome shot...not > > to mention it gives your friends an under their breath chuckle. Having said > > that, I was beat hands down by a couple of rifle flinters in a trail walk > > this spring that was more than a little damp with one of them recovering > > from a frizzen full of water - and I shoot the modern way! > > > > The other thing to consider is the cost. A pound of FFFF will last 5-10 > > years for priming at $7-10, and I am paying $4 per each 100 rounds with > > caps! If you like to cut your own patches and cast your own ball, you can > > be a real economical shooter by not using caps. But of course there are > > those lousy rocks to find and hammer on.... > > > > A question for all you shooters: How may of you are shooting with a > > "moose-milk" type of water soluble oil patch lube vs. the "bear-grease" > > patch lube? I have been using the "moose-milk" now for a while and find I > > have zero bore fouling for as many rounds as I want to go. I am strictly a > > black powder man. Any comments? > > > > Travler > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cd252 [mailto:cd252@ptd.net] > > Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 4:25 PM > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > Subject: MtMan-List: Rifle question > > > > Hi, > > > > What brand and or type of rifle is the most commonly seen at the most recent > > Rendezvous > > > > Also what percentage are cap locks??? > > > > Thanks, > > Big Dave > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Nationals Date: 06 Jul 2001 18:27:35 EDT Wooooooohooooo! I'm just back from Nationals, and it was a kick in the pants! I can't remember when I had more fun without being arrested, or catching sumtin.... Them Poison River boys sure do know how to put on a great doin's. Crazy Cyot has put new meaning into the word "Crazy" .....my sides still hurt for some of the laughs he provided. I'll write a full report when I recover from an honorable injury (read blister) digging camas with my knife, .....and get released from the de-tox center..... Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Youth Presentation Date: 06 Jul 2001 16:07:31 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 3:02 PM > This game was played at the Fort Snelling July reenactment of the sale of > the Columbia Fur Co. to American Fur. The post variation was to stand on > nail kegs. Be sure the ground is soft! And it doesn't hurt to stay out of the Shrub Tent if your going to play the game either! Good to see you. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jim gossett Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rifle question Date: 06 Jul 2001 20:36:30 -0500 Well. I ll be the 1842 69 caliber percussion musket was actually a flintlock and so was the 1841 Mississippi rifle was also.The upper gun was used a lot in the Mexican war and so was the 1841 by Jeff Davis" regiment .The losing side shot Brown Bess`s 2nd models same as the losing side in the American Revolution . In fact probably close to half the guns used in the West by the late 1830s were caps.I will agree that most not all but most trappers used Flints until at least the mid 1840s.By then most of them were not trappers but where hide traders. GJG Larry Huber wrote: > Just to add to what could become a real "party" on this question, a > correction: Most guns MADE in the East in 1827 were probably caplock > ignition but by overwhelming number most guns USED in the East were > Flintlock. The "old" ignition system was in production for many decades > before the switch and those good old boys didn't replace anything that > worked well for the latest fad. The new ignition was also comparatively > expensive until usage in later decades made the cost universally affordable. > Brigade leaders like Smith and Carson could afford the cost...unless you > consider Smith losing his life due to fumbling with caps too great a cost. > The military was certainly slow to make the change. The Texas war of > Independence was conducted with Flintlocks as was the Mexican War. When the > British Enfield replaced the tried and trued Brown Bess, the Americans > followed suit with their Springfield just in time for the Civil War. And > even though many volunteer units started the war with Flintlocks, I consider > the military crossover to caplocks the official demise of the Flintlock era. > > Just as an interesting aside on current flintlock use among Mountain Men, at > the recent AMM National Rendezvous last week twenty men stood in line to > salute the flag on the 4th of July. Concerned about pan flash, the shooter > next to me asked if I was shooting a flinter. I wasn't the only one who > chuckled. ALL twenty men were shooting rocklocks including the person who > inquired. A caplock shooter in that group is a real rare animal indeed. > > Larry Huber > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "jim gossett" > To: > Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 5:32 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rifle question > > > About the guns and ignition . Flint or cap? Most guns in the East where > > probably cap by 1827. Jed Smith died in the late 1820"s carrying to > caplock > > pistols. Read JOURNAL of a TRAPPER by Russell .Mid to late 1830's caplocks > are > > used and mentioned. Also read Wah to ya and the Taos Trail it takes place > in the > > late 1840's. Their guns are caplock the Indians use "the old style > ignition'. As > > for me I have both and use both.That is the nice thing about the 1830s 40s > > and50s they are both correct be you trapper or trader etc. > Gentleman > > James > > > > De Santis, Nick wrote: > > > > > Big Dave, > > > > > > Just another viewpoint. I shoot with a club in western Oregon that > picked > > > the pre 1840 trapper era as our period of choice. We have rifle and > trade > > > gun competitions as separate shooting classes. I think all of the trade > > > gunners are shooting flints. The rifle shooters are about 80% caps. > > > Although I have to say it can be wet a lot of the year around here and a > hat > > > brim full of water in your frizzen can ruin an otherwise awesome > shot...not > > > to mention it gives your friends an under their breath chuckle. Having > said > > > that, I was beat hands down by a couple of rifle flinters in a trail > walk > > > this spring that was more than a little damp with one of them recovering > > > from a frizzen full of water - and I shoot the modern way! > > > > > > The other thing to consider is the cost. A pound of FFFF will last 5-10 > > > years for priming at $7-10, and I am paying $4 per each 100 rounds with > > > caps! If you like to cut your own patches and cast your own ball, you > can > > > be a real economical shooter by not using caps. But of course there are > > > those lousy rocks to find and hammer on.... > > > > > > A question for all you shooters: How may of you are shooting with a > > > "moose-milk" type of water soluble oil patch lube vs. the "bear-grease" > > > patch lube? I have been using the "moose-milk" now for a while and find > I > > > have zero bore fouling for as many rounds as I want to go. I am strictly > a > > > black powder man. Any comments? > > > > > > Travler > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cd252 [mailto:cd252@ptd.net] > > > Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 4:25 PM > > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > > Subject: MtMan-List: Rifle question > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > What brand and or type of rifle is the most commonly seen at the most > recent > > > Rendezvous > > > > > > Also what percentage are cap locks??? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Big Dave > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rifle question Date: 06 Jul 2001 21:49:49 -0700 I was aware of the two caplocks models you mentioned but didn't feel they were the "common" military arm. How extensive was its adoption within the American forces beyond the regiment mentioned? 20%? 40%? This is not my particular area of interest although I've read two pervious accounts. They mention the caplocks being used as an exception rather than the rule. I've currently begun reading "Gone for Soldiers" by Jeff Shaara and will make a note to pay particular attention to weaponry. This discussion of 1840 armament is beyond the period of interest delineated by this list, however, if I've given "misinformation" through my own ignorance, I don't want to continue a wrong impression. I'm truly interested in learning about any new information about the extensive use of percussion arms by U.S. military forces. Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 6:36 PM > Well. I ll be the 1842 69 caliber percussion musket was actually a flintlock > and so was the 1841 Mississippi rifle was also.The upper gun was used a lot in > the Mexican war and so was the 1841 by Jeff Davis" regiment .The losing side > shot Brown Bess`s 2nd models same as the losing side in the American Revolution > . In fact probably close to half the guns used in the West by the late 1830s > were caps.I will agree that most not all but most trappers used Flints until at > least the mid 1840s.By then most of them were not trappers but where hide > traders. GJG > > Larry Huber wrote: > > > Just to add to what could become a real "party" on this question, a > > correction: Most guns MADE in the East in 1827 were probably caplock > > ignition but by overwhelming number most guns USED in the East were > > Flintlock. The "old" ignition system was in production for many decades > > before the switch and those good old boys didn't replace anything that > > worked well for the latest fad. The new ignition was also comparatively > > expensive until usage in later decades made the cost universally affordable. > > Brigade leaders like Smith and Carson could afford the cost...unless you > > consider Smith losing his life due to fumbling with caps too great a cost. > > The military was certainly slow to make the change. The Texas war of > > Independence was conducted with Flintlocks as was the Mexican War. When the > > British Enfield replaced the tried and trued Brown Bess, the Americans > > followed suit with their Springfield just in time for the Civil War. And > > even though many volunteer units started the war with Flintlocks, I consider > > the military crossover to caplocks the official demise of the Flintlock era. > > > > Just as an interesting aside on current flintlock use among Mountain Men, at > > the recent AMM National Rendezvous last week twenty men stood in line to > > salute the flag on the 4th of July. Concerned about pan flash, the shooter > > next to me asked if I was shooting a flinter. I wasn't the only one who > > chuckled. ALL twenty men were shooting rocklocks including the person who > > inquired. A caplock shooter in that group is a real rare animal indeed. > > > > Larry Huber > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "jim gossett" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 5:32 PM > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rifle question > > > > > About the guns and ignition . Flint or cap? Most guns in the East where > > > probably cap by 1827. Jed Smith died in the late 1820"s carrying to > > caplock > > > pistols. Read JOURNAL of a TRAPPER by Russell .Mid to late 1830's caplocks > > are > > > used and mentioned. Also read Wah to ya and the Taos Trail it takes place > > in the > > > late 1840's. Their guns are caplock the Indians use "the old style > > ignition'. As > > > for me I have both and use both.That is the nice thing about the 1830s 40s > > > and50s they are both correct be you trapper or trader etc. > > Gentleman > > > James > > > > > > De Santis, Nick wrote: > > > > > > > Big Dave, > > > > > > > > Just another viewpoint. I shoot with a club in western Oregon that > > picked > > > > the pre 1840 trapper era as our period of choice. We have rifle and > > trade > > > > gun competitions as separate shooting classes. I think all of the trade > > > > gunners are shooting flints. The rifle shooters are about 80% caps. > > > > Although I have to say it can be wet a lot of the year around here and a > > hat > > > > brim full of water in your frizzen can ruin an otherwise awesome > > shot...not > > > > to mention it gives your friends an under their breath chuckle. Having > > said > > > > that, I was beat hands down by a couple of rifle flinters in a trail > > walk > > > > this spring that was more than a little damp with one of them recovering > > > > from a frizzen full of water - and I shoot the modern way! > > > > > > > > The other thing to consider is the cost. A pound of FFFF will last 5-10 > > > > years for priming at $7-10, and I am paying $4 per each 100 rounds with > > > > caps! If you like to cut your own patches and cast your own ball, you > > can > > > > be a real economical shooter by not using caps. But of course there are > > > > those lousy rocks to find and hammer on.... > > > > > > > > A question for all you shooters: How may of you are shooting with a > > > > "moose-milk" type of water soluble oil patch lube vs. the "bear-grease" > > > > patch lube? I have been using the "moose-milk" now for a while and find > > I > > > > have zero bore fouling for as many rounds as I want to go. I am strictly > > a > > > > black powder man. Any comments? > > > > > > > > Travler > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: cd252 [mailto:cd252@ptd.net] > > > > Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 4:25 PM > > > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > > > Subject: MtMan-List: Rifle question > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > What brand and or type of rifle is the most commonly seen at the most > > recent > > > > Rendezvous > > > > > > > > Also what percentage are cap locks??? > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Big Dave > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Nationals Date: 07 Jul 2001 01:06:07 EDT Crazy, Mike (the bar tender) and Allen "Fort" Hall..... Click Here: ammnat01.jpg ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jim gossett Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rifle question Date: 07 Jul 2001 05:53:23 -0500 Watch your Top Knot.Ill be back with more on the subject of caps and flints.Personally I own more flints than caps at this time. Gentleman James Larry Huber wrote: > I was aware of the two caplocks models you mentioned but didn't feel they > were the "common" military arm. How extensive was its adoption within the > American forces beyond the regiment mentioned? 20%? 40%? This is not my > particular area of interest although I've read two pervious accounts. They > mention the caplocks being used as an exception rather than the rule. I've > currently begun reading "Gone for Soldiers" by Jeff Shaara and will make a > note to pay particular attention to weaponry. This discussion of 1840 > armament is beyond the period of interest delineated by this list, however, > if I've given "misinformation" through my own ignorance, I don't want to > continue a wrong impression. I'm truly interested in learning about any new > information about the extensive use of percussion arms by U.S. military > forces. > > Larry Huber > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "jim gossett" > To: > Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 6:36 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rifle question > > > Well. I ll be the 1842 69 caliber percussion musket was actually a > flintlock > > and so was the 1841 Mississippi rifle was also.The upper gun was used a > lot in > > the Mexican war and so was the 1841 by Jeff Davis" regiment .The losing > side > > shot Brown Bess`s 2nd models same as the losing side in the American > Revolution > > . In fact probably close to half the guns used in the West by the late > 1830s > > were caps.I will agree that most not all but most trappers used Flints > until at > > least the mid 1840s.By then most of them were not trappers but where hide > > traders. GJG > > > > Larry Huber wrote: > > > > > Just to add to what could become a real "party" on this question, a > > > correction: Most guns MADE in the East in 1827 were probably caplock > > > ignition but by overwhelming number most guns USED in the East were > > > Flintlock. The "old" ignition system was in production for many decades > > > before the switch and those good old boys didn't replace anything that > > > worked well for the latest fad. The new ignition was also comparatively > > > expensive until usage in later decades made the cost universally > affordable. > > > Brigade leaders like Smith and Carson could afford the cost...unless you > > > consider Smith losing his life due to fumbling with caps too great a > cost. > > > The military was certainly slow to make the change. The Texas war of > > > Independence was conducted with Flintlocks as was the Mexican War. When > the > > > British Enfield replaced the tried and trued Brown Bess, the Americans > > > followed suit with their Springfield just in time for the Civil War. > And > > > even though many volunteer units started the war with Flintlocks, I > consider > > > the military crossover to caplocks the official demise of the Flintlock > era. > > > > > > Just as an interesting aside on current flintlock use among Mountain > Men, at > > > the recent AMM National Rendezvous last week twenty men stood in line to > > > salute the flag on the 4th of July. Concerned about pan flash, the > shooter > > > next to me asked if I was shooting a flinter. I wasn't the only one who > > > chuckled. ALL twenty men were shooting rocklocks including the person > who > > > inquired. A caplock shooter in that group is a real rare animal indeed. > > > > > > Larry Huber > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "jim gossett" > > > To: > > > Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 5:32 PM > > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rifle question > > > > > > > About the guns and ignition . Flint or cap? Most guns in the East > where > > > > probably cap by 1827. Jed Smith died in the late 1820"s carrying to > > > caplock > > > > pistols. Read JOURNAL of a TRAPPER by Russell .Mid to late 1830's > caplocks > > > are > > > > used and mentioned. Also read Wah to ya and the Taos Trail it takes > place > > > in the > > > > late 1840's. Their guns are caplock the Indians use "the old style > > > ignition'. As > > > > for me I have both and use both.That is the nice thing about the 1830s > 40s > > > > and50s they are both correct be you trapper or trader etc. > > > Gentleman > > > > James > > > > > > > > De Santis, Nick wrote: > > > > > > > > > Big Dave, > > > > > > > > > > Just another viewpoint. I shoot with a club in western Oregon that > > > picked > > > > > the pre 1840 trapper era as our period of choice. We have rifle and > > > trade > > > > > gun competitions as separate shooting classes. I think all of the > trade > > > > > gunners are shooting flints. The rifle shooters are about 80% caps. > > > > > Although I have to say it can be wet a lot of the year around here > and a > > > hat > > > > > brim full of water in your frizzen can ruin an otherwise awesome > > > shot...not > > > > > to mention it gives your friends an under their breath chuckle. > Having > > > said > > > > > that, I was beat hands down by a couple of rifle flinters in a trail > > > walk > > > > > this spring that was more than a little damp with one of them > recovering > > > > > from a frizzen full of water - and I shoot the modern way! > > > > > > > > > > The other thing to consider is the cost. A pound of FFFF will last > 5-10 > > > > > years for priming at $7-10, and I am paying $4 per each 100 rounds > with > > > > > caps! If you like to cut your own patches and cast your own ball, > you > > > can > > > > > be a real economical shooter by not using caps. But of course there > are > > > > > those lousy rocks to find and hammer on.... > > > > > > > > > > A question for all you shooters: How may of you are shooting with a > > > > > "moose-milk" type of water soluble oil patch lube vs. the > "bear-grease" > > > > > patch lube? I have been using the "moose-milk" now for a while and > find > > > I > > > > > have zero bore fouling for as many rounds as I want to go. I am > strictly > > > a > > > > > black powder man. Any comments? > > > > > > > > > > Travler > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: cd252 [mailto:cd252@ptd.net] > > > > > Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 4:25 PM > > > > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > > > > Subject: MtMan-List: Rifle question > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > What brand and or type of rifle is the most commonly seen at the > most > > > recent > > > > > Rendezvous > > > > > > > > > > Also what percentage are cap locks??? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > Big Dave > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > > > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > > > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Nationals Date: 07 Jul 2001 08:56:13 -0400 Oh! may Gawd! did that picture wake me up this very sunny Fla. morning. Now there are some nice looking gents. Linda Holley ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck_conner@email.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Youth Presentation Date: 07 Jul 2001 23:00:54 +0800 > This game was played at the Fort Snelling July reenactment of the sale of > the Columbia Fur Co. to American Fur. The post variation was to stand on > nail kegs. Be sure the ground is soft! > > Larry Huber ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Larry, You mentioning Ft. Snelling, I was there last week and talked to several of the living history folks working there, they told me that being state run they would be closing very shortley because their buget has been used up for the year. Was told the same thing the week before at another historical site in MN, if this is true that's real poor for "youth presentations" or any other "demos" for the state's history programs. To bad the federal goverment can't give some relief, tax breaks or whatever to keep these sites open year around or at least weekends in off seasons in MN. Do you know anything about this, hear something at the end of the local news one night, but found nothing in the Minn. paper next day ? -- Take care, Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ AMM ~ LENAPE ~ NRA ~ HRD ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://pages.about.com/conner1/ http://pages.about.com/buckconner/ "Rival the best - Surpass the rest". ___________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Make PC-to-Phone calls with Net2Phone. Sign-up today at: http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/link.cgi?121 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Boone and Crocket Date: 07 Jul 2001 23:01:33 EDT I just saw the last 20 minutes of "Boone and Crocket, Hunter Hero's" on the History channel. From what little I saw, Mark Baker does an outstanding job as Davie Crocket, and the show was well done. I'm sure it will be on again soon..... Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gene Hickman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Boone and Crocket Date: 07 Jul 2001 21:35:29 -0600 I saw the last 25 minutes and he did do a real good job. It is on again at 10pm and I have it on automatic rcord. Did you get home with your sign language tape? Did you find your shirt? I didn't find it here. GENE ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2001 9:01 PM > I just saw the last 20 minutes of "Boone and Crocket, Hunter Hero's" on the > History channel. From what little I saw, Mark Baker does an outstanding job > as Davie Crocket, and the show was well done. I'm sure it will be on again > soon..... > > Ymos, > Magpie > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: muleskinners Date: 08 Jul 2001 09:53:08 -0500 Why were muleskinners called "muleskinners"? Seems to me that mules would not have been raised for the purpose of obtaining their hides and that there would not have been an actual occupation for skinning mules. Buffalo skinners mebbe. Mules? Naw. But the term seems to have been around for some time. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "pat broehl" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: muleskinners Date: 08 Jul 2001 08:12:41 -0700 > > Why were muleskinners called "muleskinners"? > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Frank, The term refers to the teamster using his whip to encourage the team to perform. Snapping it over their heads to hasten them along. In agravation of unsatifactory compliance,it was imagined that the driver was tempted to aim low and cut the hide with the snapping of the whip, and exude verbal threats that he was going to " skin that ornery son of a gun if he don't get going." thats the way I heard it, Itsaquain _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck_conner@email.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rifle question Date: 09 Jul 2001 06:49:44 +0800 About the guns and ignition . Flint or cap? Most guns in the East where probably cap by 1827. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James, I have several original U.S. Model 1816 Harpers Ferry flintlocks that weren't converted until 1828/29 and not approved for service until 1830 -marked- "US/A.WATERS/1828" and "US/A.WATERS/1829" this company did many of the conversions and where proofed by "MILLBURY/1830" (government agent)for release for serviceon this year. From 1923 until his death in 1990 my father had collected both flint and perc. military weapons of English or American forces used in the new world (here). So I can say we have seen a few over the years of these old guns and their ignition systems. We have sold, trade or swapped to collectors fron sea to shining sea as well as several museums, so I have seen a few over the years. A large part of the conversions where not in the field until the mid 1830's back east, so to state "Most guns in the East where probably cap by 1827." just really isn't true, let me tell you why. Maybe by 1835 some had changed, but remember these people followed what the military did, plus converting from one to the other system was expensive for those limited in funds when the old flinter still worked. They used their gun to mainly provide food for their families, also protection or sport, put like today it's expensive to just waste ball and powder. Usually those of means where the first to make the change, like anything else. Charles Hanson has talked and written many articles about this subject, but what I have always found interesting is there are only a few documented cases (in comparsion to the flint) of percussion being used before 1837. When St. Louis gun makers/hardware stores - (like today's Wal Mart or K Mart, sell everything) started to promoted the use of this system, either conversion or new guns (by the way many of which according to Hanson where double barrel shotguns)was in the late 1830! Charley wrote and I can't find which journal it is in right now, that many of the weapons coming west where military muskets, that was part of your pay when leaving the service (probably because of poor pay and the weapon you carried worked, it was used for the time being), interesting, sure shoots down some folks dreams. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jed Smith died in the late 1820"s carrying to caplock pistols. Read JOURNAL of a TRAPPER by Russell .Mid to late 1830's caplocks are used and mentioned. Also read Wah to ya and the Taos Trail it takes place in the late 1840's. Their guns are caplock the Indians use "the old style ignition'. As for me I have both and use both.That is the nice thing about the 1830s 40s and 50s they are both correct be you trapper or trader etc. Gentleman James ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ As mentioned, there where both systems, the number of each is an unknown figure, like Charley said at a speech at Bent's Fort back in the late 70's, "records where not kept on such things, the only records as accurate as they would be, would be to look at the trade lists and possibly the number of flints or percussion caps being shown for that time". Not a true picture because some of flint shooters would have knapped their own with local material, rather than spend money on flint when whiskey was available. I'm sure that my old friend "Hawk" can add additional information, as can several others like Dave Kanger or Mike Moore, both good research men. Good discussion topic that will go on until we all loose interest in this hobby/sport/way of life, Thanks Gentlemen James. -- Take care, Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ AMM ~ LENAPE ~ NRA ~ HRD ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Rival the best - Surpass the rest". ___________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Make PC-to-Phone calls with Net2Phone. Sign-up today at: http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/link.cgi?121 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jim gossett Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rifle question Date: 08 Jul 2001 20:13:36 -0500 I agree with some a probably good bit more with what you are saying. My disagreement started with a writer telling a new convert to muzzle loading not to choose a cap lock. And I was saying that if you are going to do a 1830 40 50s impression a caplock is perfectly acceptable. I am not even saying that in the West in even the late 1830s most guns were cap. I am saying that they were in use at that time in a good number good enough number that a muzzloader can use them and be correct.As far as the statement that most (shotguns) guns in the East were cap I left out Shotguns. NOW I will quote Garavaglia and Worman Firearms of the American West 1803-1865 . "While the percussion lock was available at this time, the flintlock mechanism enjoyed a comparatively long period of popularity on the frontier. Alexander Forsyth, a Scottish clergyman, had patented the percussion system in April of 1807; by the early 1820s, after various modifications and improvements which included the development of the copper percussion cap, the system had gained a certain popularity among sportsmen. In 1827 the American Shooter's Manual noted that eastern sportsmen were almost exclusively using shotguns fitted with percussion locks, and by 1830 many eastern guns, regardless of type, employed the percussion system. Within a year or two it was comming to the attention of westerners with increasing frequency; early in 1832, for example, John Martin of Little Rock incorporated this line in his advertisement: "Guns and Pistols with common locks, fitted with percussion locks, at the shortest notice." Nevertheless, flintlocks remained the choice of the more conservative frointersmen for another ten years or so. (early 1840s). Thanks Gentleman James. Im sure there will be more to come.I hope we all are learning something from our diatribes and rantings. Watch your top knots. Wagh! buck_conner@email.com wrote: > Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 19:32:57 -0500 > From: jim gossett > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rifle question > > About the guns and ignition . Flint or cap? Most guns in the East where probably cap by 1827. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > James, > > I have several original U.S. Model 1816 Harpers Ferry flintlocks that weren't converted until 1828/29 and not approved for service until 1830 -marked- "US/A.WATERS/1828" and "US/A.WATERS/1829" this company did many of the conversions and where proofed by "MILLBURY/1830" (government agent)for release for serviceon this year. > > >From 1923 until his death in 1990 my father had collected both flint and perc. military weapons of English or American forces used in the new world (here). So I can say we have seen a few over the years of these old guns and their ignition systems. We have sold, trade or swapped to collectors fron sea to shining sea as well as several museums, so I have seen a few over the years. > > A large part of the conversions where not in the field until the mid 1830's back east, so to state "Most guns in the East where probably cap by 1827." just really isn't true, let me tell you why. > > Maybe by 1835 some had changed, but remember these people followed what the military did, plus converting from one to the other system was expensive for those limited in funds when the old flinter still worked. They used their gun to mainly provide food for their families, also protection or sport, put like today it's expensive to just waste ball and powder. > > Usually those of means where the first to make the change, like anything else. Charles Hanson has talked and written many articles about this subject, but what I have always found interesting is there are only a few documented cases (in comparsion to the flint) of percussion being used before 1837. > > When St. Louis gun makers/hardware stores - (like today's Wal Mart or K Mart, sell everything) started to promoted the use of this system, either conversion or new guns (by the way many of which according to Hanson where double barrel shotguns)was in the late 1830! > > Charley wrote and I can't find which journal it is in right now, that many of the weapons coming west where military muskets, that was part of your pay when leaving the service (probably because of poor pay and the weapon you carried worked, it was used for the time being), interesting, sure shoots down some folks dreams. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Jed Smith died in the late 1820"s carrying to caplock pistols. Read JOURNAL of a TRAPPER by Russell .Mid to late 1830's caplocks are used and mentioned. Also read Wah to ya and the Taos Trail it takes place in the late 1840's. Their guns are caplock the Indians use "the old style ignition'. As for me I have both and use both.That is the nice thing about the 1830s 40s and 50s they are both correct be you trapper or trader etc. Gentleman James > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > As mentioned, there where both systems, the number of each is an unknown figure, like Charley said at a speech at Bent's Fort back in the late 70's, "records where not kept on such things, the only records as accurate as they would be, would be to look at the trade lists and possibly the number of flints or percussion caps being shown for that time". Not a true picture because some of flint shooters would have knapped their own with local material, rather than spend money on flint when whiskey was available. > > I'm sure that my old friend "Hawk" can add additional information, as can several others like Dave Kanger or Mike Moore, both good research men. > > Good discussion topic that will go on until we all loose interest in this hobby/sport/way of life, Thanks Gentlemen James. > > -- > > Take care, > Buck Conner > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~ AMM ~ LENAPE ~ NRA ~ HRD ~ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > "Rival the best - Surpass the rest". > ___________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > _______________________________________________ > Make PC-to-Phone calls with Net2Phone. > Sign-up today at: http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/link.cgi?121 > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Would like to see Date: 08 Jul 2001 21:59:25 EDT Does any one know if the boone and crockett [ the hunter heroes] that was on the history channel will be shown again.A friend taped it for me ,and I ended up with two hours of Cops Traphand Rick Petzoldt Traphand@aol.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Would like to see Date: 08 Jul 2001 22:11:32 EDT Yes, it will be shown on next Saturday the 14th. Don't know the time though. check historychannel.com for times. I missed it too!!! ZZZZZZZZZZZ Sleeps Loudly ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Would like to see Date: 08 Jul 2001 22:42:41 EDT In a message dated 7/8/01 7:00:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Traphand@aol.com writes: << Does any one know if the boone and crockett [ the hunter heroes] that was on the history channel will be shown again >> (ALL TIMES ARE EASTERN AND PACIFIC) Sunday July 8, 12 AM to 2 AM (tonight) Saturday, July 14 12 PM to 2 PM and then Crockett (born two generations after Boone) is featured in THE BATTLE OF THE ALAMO Monday, July 16 7 AM to 8 AM Hope this helps, Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Boone & Crockett Date: 08 Jul 2001 22:46:04 EDT OOPS!!! July 8th 12AM was this morning, not tonight as I posted. Danged senior moment again! Sorry about that! Barn ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck_conner@email.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rifle question Date: 09 Jul 2001 10:52:29 +0800 -----Original Message----- I agree with some a probably good bit more with what you are saying. My disagreement started with a writer telling a new convert to muzzle loading not to choose a cap lock. And I was saying that if you are going to do a 1830 40 50s impression a caplock is perfectly acceptable......... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I wish I had the resources that Hanson had, he would have enjoyed this discussion and what some writer's think is correct, but un-documented. It would be interesting to see what references (documented) material was used by the writer. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ NOW I will quote Garavaglia and Worman Firearms of the American West 1803-1865. > "While the percussion lock was available at this time, the flintlock mechanism enjoyed a comparatively long period of popularity on the frontier. Alexander Forsyth, a Scottish clergyman, had patented the percussion system in April of 1807; by the early 1820s, after various modifications and improvements which included the development of the copper percussion cap, the system had gained a certain popularity among sportsmen. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "among sportsmen" - men of means, not the local baker, butcher or candlestick maker, Alexander Forsyth, the Scottish clergyman, was a wealthy man, the reason he hadf the time to work on his theory of the percussion cap. He had the means to show his invention to others of like wealth, finally coming to this country with the Lords and Dukes on their hunting trips, much like some of the air rifles that appeared in the late 1700's from Europe (expensive, different and who do we know that gets a copy of one - Lewis & Clark). Don't go by only a few writers, many just copy what another wrote. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Nevertheless, flintlocks remained the choice of the more conservative frointersmen for another ten years or so. (early 1840s). Thanks Gentleman James. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yes the percussion system was available, that doesn't mean it was widely excepted as early as stated earlier, whether in the East or West. Look how late the muskets where in being released for service, and like most weapons trends, the public follows the military thinking. Here's another thought; Look at the trade gun (flint) they where still filling orders (government contracts) for flint guns in the mid 1850's, a specialized trade agreed, as the Indians where use to the old system and as Hanson told us one time, he would guess they the Indian's didn't want to get into a supply and demand problem with caps at that time. I have several trade guns, one is a pre 1813 gun that was converted according to it's markings in 1830 in New York state, so that shoots down what Hanson said with one gun, so should we say by 1830 all trade guns where converted to percussion cap, I don't think so! That's only one gun, Eastern and probably rare to be converted at this time, probably not an Indian gun. Tryon (a general hardware store) made and sold percussion trade guns in Phila as early as 1836, called a "farm gun" for the general public not so much the Indian trade. A smooth bore single shot - shotgun basicly, in the East and percussion, so then everything should have been percussion ??? NOT. See what we learn with a simple subject or flint or percussion, neat. -- Take care, Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ AMM ~ LENAPE ~ NRA ~ HRD ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Rival the best - Surpass the rest". ___________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Make PC-to-Phone calls with Net2Phone. Sign-up today at: http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/link.cgi?121 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck_conner@email.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Would like to see Date: 09 Jul 2001 11:00:11 +0800 -----Original Message----- > In a message dated 7/8/01 7:00:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Traphand@aol.com > writes: > > << Does any one know if the boone and crockett [ the hunter heroes] that was > on > the history channel will be shown again >> > ____________________________________________ go to the url: http://www.historychannel.com/ use the search box: Boone and Crockett it brings up the video; ____________________________________________ Boone and Crockett: The Hunter Heroes The lives of the two fabled woodsmen are compared in this compelling blend of history and drama. Price:$29.95 ____________________________________________ -- Take care, Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ AMM ~ LENAPE ~ NRA ~ HRD ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Rival the best - Surpass the rest". ___________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Make PC-to-Phone calls with Net2Phone. Sign-up today at: http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/link.cgi?121 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Glenn Darilek" Subject: MtMan-List: Muleskinners Date: 09 Jul 2001 07:55:01 -0500 The word 'Muleskinner' is probably not period correct. According to Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, the words 'mule skinner' were not used until 1870. The word 'muleteer' was used as far back as 1538. Glenn Darilek Iron Burner ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: Muleskinners Date: 09 Jul 2001 08:23:58 -0500 You are right. Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary describes Muleteer as a "mule driver". Muleskinner is not listed. Lanney Ratcliff > The word 'Muleskinner' is probably not period correct. According to > Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, the words 'mule skinner' were not > used until 1870. The word 'muleteer' was used as far back as 1538. > > Glenn Darilek > Iron Burner > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: MtMan-List: TV program Date: 09 Jul 2001 21:46:57 -0700 For those of us who do not get the History Channel, here is the web site to order the documentary. Thanks to the person who sent the History Channel web site. http://store.aetv.com/cgi-bin/ae.storefront/0/Ext/OutsideFrame/UT/32/Product/43237 Linda Holley ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Boone and Crocket Date: 09 Jul 2001 10:45:51 EDT In a message dated 7/7, Magpie writes: << I just saw the last 20 minutes of "Boone and Crocket, Hunter Hero's" on the History channel. ----( stuff deleted )---- I'm sure it will be on again soon..... >> Magpie, From the history Channel listings: Boone and Crockett: The Hunter Heroes Saturday , July 14 12:00 PM-2:00 PM Longshot ******************************************************** "Longshot's Rendezvous Homepage" (Newly Redesigned) http://members.aol.com/lodgepole/longshot.html ******************************************************** ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "'bella" Subject: MtMan-List: list Date: 10 Jul 2001 18:04:26 -0400 can someone do me a kindness... I have a friend who does not believe me... can someone send me the list one must fulfill for the American mountain men... had a copy but lost it in the move... sigh..... wish September and the eastern would get here... ] thanks bella ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gene Hickman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: list Date: 10 Jul 2001 16:35:55 -0600 Bella, Here's the AMM web site and the requirements are there: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm/moreamm.html YMOS Bead Shooter AKA Ghosting Wolf ----- Original Message ----- > can someone do me a kindness... > I have a friend who does not believe me... > > can someone send me the list one must fulfill for the > American mountain men... had a copy but lost it in the move... ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "'bella" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: list Date: 10 Jul 2001 19:21:46 -0400 got it thanks.... At 04:35 PM 7/10/2001 -0600, you wrote: >Bella, > >Here's the AMM web site and the requirements are there: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm/moreamm.html > >YMOS >Bead Shooter AKA Ghosting Wolf > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "'bella" >To: >Subject: MtMan-List: list > > > > can someone do me a kindness... > > I have a friend who does not believe me... > > > > can someone send me the list one must fulfill for the > > American mountain men... had a copy but lost it in the move... > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Alberta Canada/AMM Members/Canadian Historical Events Date: 10 Jul 2001 23:39:35 EDT Hello list Got a old AMM member that needs information on any blackpowder clubs, blackpowder events, or simply any other AMM members in the Edmonton, Alberta Canada area. He's recently relocated up there and suffering from withdrawl......... Gun shops selling blackpowder supplies have no idea of any events anywhere, much less what a historical reenactment is! Please contact me if you know of ANYTHING. Thanks in advance. Traphand Rick Petzoldt Traphand@aol.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred Subject: MtMan-List: 19cWoman--Invitation to join new list Date: 11 Jul 2001 07:05:37 -0600 I would like to extend an invitation to join a brand new list, 19cWoman@yahoogroups.com. As the name suggests, this list will focus on women in the 19th Century. Suitable topics for discussion will include period literature, manners and deportment, costume, social standards, historic recipes, child care, and anything else relating to 19th century women of all stations and nationalities. This list is modelled on the highly successful 18cWoman list at yahoogroups.com, which has been a source of information and inspiration for the last two years. Like 18cWoman, 19cWoman will expect listmembers to be civil and remain on topic. To join, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/19cWoman/join Thank you. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred List-owner, 19cWoman ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "ALAN AVERY" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alberta Canada/AMM Members/Canadian Historical Events Date: 11 Jul 2001 09:18:02 -0700 Traphand, I am in B.C., next door to Alberta, but I do have a snail mail address for the Alberta Black Powder Association: A.B.P.A. 34 Fern Road Red Deer, AB T4N 4Z4 You might also try the Northwest Brigade homepage, http://www.agt.net/public/gottfred/nwj.html this is a fine publication by Jeff and (our own) Angela Gottfred that is based in Alberta. If Angela is about, I'm sure she can give a few resources also, (as she is never lacking in resources!) Hope this helps. Black Knife Alan Avery ----- Original Message ----- Sent: July 10, 2001 8:39 PM > Hello list > Got a old AMM member that needs information > on any blackpowder clubs, blackpowder events, or simply > any other AMM members in the Edmonton, Alberta Canada > area. He's recently relocated up there and suffering > from withdrawl......... Gun shops selling blackpowder > supplies have no idea of any events anywhere, much > less what a historical reenactment is! > > Please contact me if you know of ANYTHING. > Thanks in advance. > Traphand > Rick Petzoldt > Traphand@aol.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: MtMan-List: pictures Date: 11 Jul 2001 14:58:55 -0600 If any of you would like to see pictures of Terry Johnston's grave, contact me off list. When returning from a canoe trip in Montana, I stopped by and seen him. Would be more than glad to share. mike. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Laura Glise update Date: 11 Jul 2001 22:07:07 -0500 Laura Jean is at Duke University Hospital again for an evaluation following a tough regime of (simultaneous) radiation and chemo for the brain tumor. She had a seizure last week but the doctors think it was a reaction to the heavy duty treatment, not the damn tumor. If all goes well she should spend some time at her mother's house in Florida after leaving Duke. She promised to try to get online while she is at her mom's house, hopefully to the list. She has had much difficulty using a keyboard for weeks and she may not be able, but she wants to speak to everybody. She is not out of the woods by a long shot so if you can squeeze in a little word for her next time you speak to your God she would appreciate it. Lanney Ratcliff ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: MtMan-List: More Mules! Date: 11 Jul 2001 23:22:42 -0600 Hello the List, Came across this and thought some of you may be interested. From the 1836 journal of Narcissa Whitman, on her way to Oregon country, by way of rendezvous. Page 150-1 of Vol. 1 of Mountain Men and the Fur Trade by LeRoy Hafen. "The Fur Com. is large this year. We are really a moving village - nearly four hundred animals with ours, mostly mules and seventy men. The Fur Com. has seven wagons and one cart, drawn by six mules each, heavily loaded; the cart drawn by two mules carries a lame man, one of the proprieters of the Com. We have two waggons in our com. Mr. and Mrs. S and Husband and my self ride in one, Mr. Gray and the baggage in the other. Our Indian boys drive the cows and Dulin the horses. Young Miles [Goodyear] leads our forward horses, four in each team. Now E. if you wish to see the camp in motion, look away ahead and see first the pilot and the Captain Fitzpatrick, just before him - next the pack animals, all mules loaded with great packs - soon after you will see the waggons and in the rear of our company. We all cover quite a space. The pack mules always string along one after the other just like Indians. There are several gentlemen in the Com. who are going over the Mountains for pleasure. Capt. Stewart, Mr. Lee speaks of him in his journal - he went over when he [Mr. Lee] did and returned. He is an Englishman, - Mr. Chelam. We had a few of them to tea with us last Monday eve - Capts. Fitzpatrick, Stuart, Maj. Harris and Chelam." Interesting stuff. She paints a picture of what the pack train looked like! Allen, who still prefers horses..... ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More Mules! Date: 12 Jul 2001 17:37:44 -0600 Allen, That "young Miles Goodyear" is the same fellow who established Fort Buenaventura in Ogden. Twas a mite after the rendezvous period however.... "Teton" Todd D. Glover http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Rifle Cleaning Date: 12 Jul 2001 20:24:31 -0600 I know I may be kicking a dead horse but here goes. While an appreciative guest at Nationals I wondered over and burned a little powder with Scott Hall and some friends from Nevada. I decided to put my new found knowledge from the list to the test, so when I returned to camp I barrowed a bucket of cold water from Teton Todd moistened some patches and cleaned my rifle. Followed with a couple dry patches then pointed it down fer a while called it good. That sounded like what was suggested on-list a while back. On returning to Cache Valley I decided to check it out; before putting my rifle away I ran a dry patch down the barrel. After one hell of a lot of trouble I got the damn thing back out and she was covered with rust. I can call rust patina on the outside but rust pits aint cool in the business part of my rifle. If just plain water is all it takes what did I do wrong. Maybe it was that Todd Water that I need to avoid in the future but doubt it. Lastly if a "Moose Milk" is needed to oil and finish a cleaning job how do you carry it in the field. "Just do it when you get home" is unacceptable for me. Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More Mules! Date: 13 Jul 2001 02:35:40
Good stuff Allen!!! Two more points for the misunderstood mule.
Cliff

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---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Rifle Cleaning Date: 12 Jul 2001 21:21:21 -0700 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Wynn, Ya did good, but ya neglected the grease. I use grease in a tin....mix with a tad of bee's wax if needed to solid it up. Water and grease works for me. hardtack ----- Original Message ----- Sent: 7/12/01 7:24:31 PM I know I may be kicking a dead horse but here goes. While an appreciative guest at Nationals I wondered over and burned a little powder with Scott Hall and some friends from Nevada. I decided to put my new found knowledge from the list to the test, so when I returned to camp I barrowed a bucket of cold water from Teton Todd moistened some patches and cleaned my rifle. Followed with a couple dry patches then pointed it down fer a while called it good. That sounded like what was suggested on-list a while back. On returning to Cache Valley I decided to check it out; before putting my rifle away I ran a dry patch down the barrel. After one hell of a lot of trouble I got the damn thing back out and she was covered with rust. I can call rust patina on the outside but rust pits aint cool in the business part of my rifle. If just plain water is all it takes what did I do wrong. Maybe it was that Todd Water that I need to avoid in the future but doubt it. Lastly if a "Moose Milk" is needed to oil and finish a cleaning job how do you carry it in the field. "Just do it when you get home" is unacceptable for me. Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html burned a little powder with Scott Hall and some friends from Nevada. I decided to put my new found knowledge from the list to the test, so when I returned to camp I barrowed a bucket of cold water from Teton Todd moistened some patches and cleaned my rifle. Followed with a couple dry patches then pointed it down fer a while called it good. That sounded like what was suggested on-list a while back. On returning to Cache Valley I decided to check it out; before putting my rifle away I ran a dry patch down the barrel. After one hell of a lot of trouble I got the damn thing back out and she was covered with rust. I can call rust patina on the outside but rust pits aint cool in the business part of my rifle. If just plain water is all it takes what did I do wrong. Maybe it was that Todd Water that I need to avoid in the future but doubt it. Lastly if a "Moose Milk" is needed to oil and finish a cleaning job how do you carry it in the field. "Just do it when you get home" is unacceptable for me. Wynn Ormond ---------------------- --- Randal Bublitz --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing it from our Children ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Wynn,  Ya did good, but ya neglected the grease.  I use  grease in a tin....mix with a tad of bee's wax if needed to solid it up.  Water and grease works for me.  hardtack
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 7/12/01 7:24:31 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Rifle Cleaning

I know I may be kicking a dead horse but here goes.
 
While an appreciative guest at Nationals I wondered over and burned a
little powder with Scott Hall and some friends from Nevada.  I decided
to put my new found knowledge from the list to the test, so when I
returned to camp I barrowed a bucket of  cold water from Teton Todd
moistened some patches and cleaned my rifle.  Followed with a couple dry
patches then pointed it down fer a while called it good.  That sounded
like what was suggested on-list a while back.
 
On returning to Cache Valley I decided to check it out; before putting
my rifle away
I ran a dry patch down the barrel.  After one hell of a lot of trouble I
got the damn thing back out and she was covered with rust.
 
I can call rust patina on the outside but rust pits aint cool in the
business part of my rifle.  If just plain water is all it takes what did
I do wrong.  Maybe it was that Todd Water that I need to avoid in the
future but doubt it.
 
Lastly if a "Moose Milk" is needed to oil and finish a cleaning job how
do you carry it in the field.  "Just do it when you get home" is
unacceptable for me.
 
Wynn Ormond
 
 
 
----------------------
little powder with Scott Hall and some friends from Nevada.  I decided
to put my new found knowledge from the list to the test, so when I
returned to camp I barrowed a bucket of  cold water from Teton Todd
moistened some patches and cleaned my rifle.  Followed with a couple dry
patches then pointed it down fer a while called it good.  That sounded
like what was suggested on-list a while back.
 
On returning to Cache Valley I decided to check it out; before putting
my rifle away
I ran a dry patch down the barrel.  After one hell of a lot of trouble I
got the damn thing back out and she was covered with rust.
 
I can call rust patina on the outside but rust pits aint cool in the
business part of my rifle.  If just plain water is all it takes what did
I do wrong.  Maybe it was that Todd Water that I need to avoid in the
future but doubt it.
 
Lastly if a "Moose Milk" is needed to oil and finish a cleaning job how
do you carry it in the field.  "Just do it when you get home" is
unacceptable for me.
 
Wynn Ormond
 
 
 
----------------------
 

 
--- Randal Bublitz
We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing it from our Children
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More Mules! Date: 12 Jul 2001 22:49:13 -0600 At 05:37 PM 07/12/2001 -0600, you wrote: >Allen, > >That "young Miles Goodyear" is the same fellow who established Fort >Buenaventura in Ogden. Twas a mite after the rendezvous period >however.... > >"Teton" Todd D. Glover >http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html Ah yes, another fine spot in our stomping grounds!!! Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rifle Cleaning Date: 13 Jul 2001 07:49:44 -0700 Sir, Bear grease or whale oil. YMOS OLe # 718 ---------- >From: "Gretchen Ormond" >To: Hist mail >Subject: MtMan-List: Rifle Cleaning >Date: Thu, Jul 12, 2001, 7:24 PM > >I know I may be kicking a dead horse but here goes. > >While an appreciative guest at Nationals I wondered over and burned a >little powder with Scott Hall and some friends from Nevada. I decided >to put my new found knowledge from the list to the test, so when I >returned to camp I barrowed a bucket of cold water from Teton Todd >moistened some patches and cleaned my rifle. Followed with a couple dry >patches then pointed it down fer a while called it good. That sounded >like what was suggested on-list a while back. > >On returning to Cache Valley I decided to check it out; before putting >my rifle away >I ran a dry patch down the barrel. After one hell of a lot of trouble I >got the damn thing back out and she was covered with rust. > >I can call rust patina on the outside but rust pits aint cool in the >business part of my rifle. If just plain water is all it takes what did >I do wrong. Maybe it was that Todd Water that I need to avoid in the >future but doubt it. > >Lastly if a "Moose Milk" is needed to oil and finish a cleaning job how >do you carry it in the field. "Just do it when you get home" is >unacceptable for me. > >Wynn Ormond > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rifle Cleaning Date: 13 Jul 2001 07:17:51 -0700 Like Ole, I too use bear grease or whale oil if I can get it. I field clean my rifle with braided tow wrapped around a worm. First the rinsed, stained tow used from previous cleanings, then cleaner tow to check the result. I like the rinse water to be near boiling (careful as you touch the barrel). Tipped upside down to drain, the heat evaporates any moisture left in the barrel. While still warm, I run a greased tow worm down the barrel and run the retrieved tow over the metal external parts. This works for me. When I get home, I repeat the process except I use cloth patches. I use animal grease as described as it is most compatible with black powder. I do NOT recommend petroleum based lubricants which cause "gumming" in black powder arms. If you must use synthetics use a vegetable based oil like "Bore Butter". Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 7:49 AM > Sir, > Bear grease or whale oil. > YMOS > OLe # 718 > ---------- > >From: "Gretchen Ormond" > >To: Hist mail > >Subject: MtMan-List: Rifle Cleaning > >Date: Thu, Jul 12, 2001, 7:24 PM > > > > >I know I may be kicking a dead horse but here goes. > > > >While an appreciative guest at Nationals I wondered over and burned a > >little powder with Scott Hall and some friends from Nevada. I decided > >to put my new found knowledge from the list to the test, so when I > >returned to camp I barrowed a bucket of cold water from Teton Todd > >moistened some patches and cleaned my rifle. Followed with a couple dry > >patches then pointed it down fer a while called it good. That sounded > >like what was suggested on-list a while back. > > > >On returning to Cache Valley I decided to check it out; before putting > >my rifle away > >I ran a dry patch down the barrel. After one hell of a lot of trouble I > >got the damn thing back out and she was covered with rust. > > > >I can call rust patina on the outside but rust pits aint cool in the > >business part of my rifle. If just plain water is all it takes what did > >I do wrong. Maybe it was that Todd Water that I need to avoid in the > >future but doubt it. > > > >Lastly if a "Moose Milk" is needed to oil and finish a cleaning job how > >do you carry it in the field. "Just do it when you get home" is > >unacceptable for me. > > > >Wynn Ormond > > > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rifle Cleaning Date: 12 Jul 2001 21:35:33 -0700 Wynn, Who told you to quit before you wiped it out with bear grease or some other natural oil/wax combo? 1. slush it out with water. 2. dry it out with extra patches/tow 3. coat it good with bear grease, olive oil (sweet oil), any vegetable oil, bee's wax and some kinda oil mix, et. 4. check it after a while if your worried Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 7:24 PM > I know I may be kicking a dead horse but here goes. > > While an appreciative guest at Nationals I wondered over and burned a > little powder with Scott Hall and some friends from Nevada. I decided > to put my new found knowledge from the list to the test, so when I > returned to camp I barrowed a bucket of cold water from Teton Todd > moistened some patches and cleaned my rifle. Followed with a couple dry > patches then pointed it down fer a while called it good. That sounded > like what was suggested on-list a while back. > > On returning to Cache Valley I decided to check it out; before putting > my rifle away > I ran a dry patch down the barrel. After one hell of a lot of trouble I > got the damn thing back out and she was covered with rust. > > I can call rust patina on the outside but rust pits aint cool in the > business part of my rifle. If just plain water is all it takes what did > I do wrong. Maybe it was that Todd Water that I need to avoid in the > future but doubt it. > > Lastly if a "Moose Milk" is needed to oil and finish a cleaning job how > do you carry it in the field. "Just do it when you get home" is > unacceptable for me. > > Wynn Ormond > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rifle Cleaning Date: 13 Jul 2001 16:39:37 -0700 1. slush it out with water. 2. dry it out with extra patches/tow 3. coat it good with bear grease, olive oil (sweet oil), any vegetable oil, bee's wax and some kinda oil mix, et. 4. check it after a while if your worried Capt. Lahti' >As per usual Capt. , you have hit the nail squarely on the head. That program, if followed to the "T", will work every time. Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: National Pictures Date: 13 Jul 2001 22:35:38 EDT --part1_98.17984c83.288109fa_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello the camp I would like to get a set of the pictures that Lanney is selling and the profit goes to the land fund. But I need his address. Better to count ribs than tracks Mark "Roadkill" Loader --part1_98.17984c83.288109fa_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello the camp
I would like to get a set of the pictures that Lanney is selling and the
profit goes to the land fund. But I need his address.
Better to count ribs than tracks
Mark "Roadkill" Loader --part1_98.17984c83.288109fa_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: National Pictures Date: 13 Jul 2001 20:59:29 -0700 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Hello the camp I would like to get a set of the pictures that Lanney is selling and the profit goes to the land fund. But I need his address. Better to count ribs than tracks Mark "Roadkill" Loader Mark, Lanney's e-mail is amm1585@hyperusa.com I just received his set of pics yesterday, and I'm quite pleased with them. hardtack ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Hello the camp
I would like to get a set of the pictures that Lanney is selling and the
profit goes to the land fund. But I need his address.
Better to count ribs than tracks
Mark "Roadkill" Loader
 
Mark, Lanney's e-mail is amm1585@hyperusa.com
 
I just received his set of pics yesterday, and I'm quite pleased with them.   hardtack
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: boone & crockett on History channel Date: 14 Jul 2001 03:01:50 EDT Hello the Camp! Wanted to remind everyone that the History Channel is replaying the show "Boone & Crockett, The Hunter Heroes" on Sat. 7/14/01 @ 12-2pm EST. Set your VCR's boys and girls ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ "Sleeps Loudly" ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More Mules! Date: 14 Jul 2001 02:35:21 -0600 Hi Allen, You might enjoy the Hafen book French Fur Traders & Voyageurs in the American West. The index shows 10 listing for mules. And it has a rich introduction by Janet Lecompte. On page 16, Introduction, "By 1834 the fur trade had shifted from beaver to buffalo, from the mountains to the plains, and from trappers to traders." The geography of your post below seems to indicate the North Platte route west. This is the same year the American Fur Company took over the Rendezvous from those who carried on from the original hands starting with Ashley 1822. Great book well worth reading. Including links to Martin Chittenden, who spent six years scanning fur trade papers, estimated that at least four-fifths of approximately five thousand men in the American fur trade were of French-Canadian or Mississippi Valley Creole background pg. 11. Cheers, Walt Park City, Montana ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 11:22 PM > Hello the List, > > Came across this and thought some of you may be interested. From the 1836 > journal of Narcissa Whitman, on her way to Oregon country, by way of > rendezvous. Page 150-1 of Vol. 1 of Mountain Men and the Fur Trade by LeRoy > Hafen. > > "The Fur Com. is large this year. We are really a moving village - nearly > four hundred animals with ours, mostly mules and seventy men. The Fur Com. > has seven wagons and one cart, drawn by six mules each, heavily loaded; the > cart drawn by two mules carries a lame man, one of the proprieters of the > Com. We have two waggons in our com. Mr. and Mrs. S and Husband and my > self ride in one, Mr. Gray and the baggage in the other. Our Indian boys > drive the cows and Dulin the horses. Young Miles [Goodyear] leads our > forward horses, four in each team. Now E. if you wish to see the camp in > motion, look away ahead and see first the pilot and the Captain Fitzpatrick, > just before him - next the pack animals, all mules loaded with great packs - > soon after you will see the waggons and in the rear of our company. We all > cover quite a space. The pack mules always string along one after the other > just like Indians. There are several gentlemen in the Com. who are going > over the Mountains for pleasure. Capt. Stewart, Mr. Lee speaks of him in > his journal - he went over when he [Mr. Lee] did and returned. He is an > Englishman, - Mr. Chelam. We had a few of them to tea with us last Monday > eve - Capts. Fitzpatrick, Stuart, Maj. Harris and Chelam." > > Interesting stuff. She paints a picture of what the pack train looked like! > > Allen, who still prefers horses..... > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Miller's sketches Date: 14 Jul 2001 23:34:08 EDT Hallo the List, Does anyone know where the original sketches done by Alfred Miller are located? I think someone once said they were in France somewhere, and I've got a kid over there that would take some pictures of them, if she knew where to go.... Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Miller's sketches Date: 14 Jul 2001 22:05:41 -0600 --------------682CE6B87B738DF11DBC8704 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Magpie, Maybe this will help you out. http://www.artcyclopedia.com/artists/miller_alfred_jacob.html SWcushing@aol.com wrote: > Hallo the List, > > Does anyone know where the original sketches done by Alfred Miller are > located? I think someone once said they were in France somewhere, and I've > got a kid over there that would take some pictures of them, if she knew where > to go.... > > Ymos, > Magpie > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html --------------682CE6B87B738DF11DBC8704 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Magpie,
    Maybe this will help you out.
http://www.artcyclopedia.com/artists/miller_alfred_jacob.html
 
 
 

SWcushing@aol.com wrote:

Hallo the List,

Does anyone know where the original sketches done by Alfred Miller are
located? I think someone once said they were in France somewhere, and I've
got a kid over there that would take some pictures of them, if she knew where
to go....

Ymos,
Magpie

----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

--------------682CE6B87B738DF11DBC8704-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Working a hat without messing it up. Date: 15 Jul 2001 00:44:46 EDT Ho Camp, I know that many of you who portray both free trappers and long hunter types of each respective period wear wool felt hats as part of your gear. I recently bought a good wool felt hat blank and it was shipped it a box that sort of warped the brim. I wanted to straighten/shape it, but thought I would ask if anyone knew a way to do this without damaging the hat. I have many times started out to do something in a seemingly innocuous way only to learn a very expensive lesson. Thought maybe some of you have messied with shaping hats before and could offer some advice! Thanks, -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: Fwd: MtMan-List: Working a hat without messing it up. Date: 15 Jul 2001 01:35:31 EDT --part1_a1.1828dc6f.288285a3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On your hat ,try steaming it.Use a old coffee are tea pot and let the steam hit the area you would like to fix. A steam iron will also work ,hope this help. Traphand Rick Petzoldt Traphand@aol.com --part1_a1.1828dc6f.288285a3_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-yb03.mx.aol.com (rly-yb03.mail.aol.com [172.18.146.3]) by air-yb05.mail.aol.com (v79.27) with ESMTP id MAILINYB54-0715004539; Sun, 15 Jul 2001 00:45:39 -0400 Received: from lists.xmission.com (lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7]) by rly-yb03.mx.aol.com (v79.20) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINYB39-0715004527; Sun, 15 Jul 2001 00:45:27 -0400 Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #2) id 15Ldm5-0000AW-00 for hist_text-gooutt@lists.xmission.com; Sat, 14 Jul 2001 22:44:57 -0600 Received: from [152.163.225.103] (helo=imo-r07.mx.aol.com) by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 15Ldm0-0000AF-00 for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Sat, 14 Jul 2001 22:44:53 -0600 Received: from HikingOnThru@cs.com by imo-r07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31.7.) id f.11b.194dd9c (4380) for ; Sun, 15 Jul 2001 00:44:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <11b.194dd9c.288279be@cs.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: CompuServe 2000 32-bit sub 107 Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Ho Camp, I know that many of you who portray both free trappers and long hunter types of each respective period wear wool felt hats as part of your gear. I recently bought a good wool felt hat blank and it was shipped it a box that sort of warped the brim. I wanted to straighten/shape it, but thought I would ask if anyone knew a way to do this without damaging the hat. I have many times started out to do something in a seemingly innocuous way only to learn a very expensive lesson. Thought maybe some of you have messied with shaping hats before and could offer some advice! Thanks, -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html --part1_a1.1828dc6f.288285a3_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Working a hat without messing it up. Date: 14 Jul 2001 23:30:27 -0700 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII C. Kent, I have restored hats using water, and also using rubbing alcohol in an atomizer (recommended by a friend). I simply laid the hat out on something to lay flat on and wet it, then let it dry.If you want a slightly down turned shape to the brim try laying the hat on a pillow, or some such. Hope this helps. hardtack --- Randal Bublitz --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing it from our Children ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
C. Kent,   I have restored hats using water, and also using rubbing alcohol in an atomizer (recommended by a friend).  I simply laid the hat out on something to lay flat on and wet it, then let it dry.If you want a slightly down turned shape to the brim try laying the hat on a pillow, or some such.  Hope this helps.   hardtack
--- Randal Bublitz
We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing it from our Children
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Working a hat without messing it up. Date: 15 Jul 2001 05:16:51 EDT C.- I recently watched a sutler using a steam wand, and it was amazing. Albeit the guy had lots of experience, but he seemed to work miracles shaping hats to folks exact desires. Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Hawkengun@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Working a hat without messing it up. Date: 16 Jul 2001 01:17:18 EDT The felt hat I wear is old and the brim is getting really floppy. It has a lot of personality though, plus it's "aprk service issue period wear" so I'm stuck with it. Is there any way to stiffen the brim a little? John R. Sweet ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SpiritoftheWood@webtv.net Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Working a Hat.... Date: 16 Jul 2001 08:16:05 -0400 (EDT) I buy a lot of vintage Fur felt hat's and when I want to shape them to my desire I wait for a light summer rain and wear it out till its damp then shape as I wish! A word of caution which ever method you chose I've found that Wool Felt is not as tolerant to gett'n over wet as Fur so take er easy !!! Happy shape'n!!! Cheers, M.A Smith "Ah,sweet summer Rain. Like God's own mercy." -The Devil- From,Oh Brother where Art Thou ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: MtMan-List: question....2 point blanket Date: 16 Jul 2001 08:34:39 -0400 Has anyone seen a 2 point blanket. I have a friend who is looking for one and I have not heard of a 2 point. Was there one that size?? Linda Holley ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question....2 point blanket Date: 16 Jul 2001 07:35:53 -0600 Linda, The closest I can remember is in the David Adam's Journal a 2 1/2 point red blanket was listed, page 50, price $3.34. mike. Linda Holley wrote: > Has anyone seen a 2 point blanket. I have a friend who is looking for one and > I have not heard of a 2 point. Was there one that size?? > > Linda Holley > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred Subject: MtMan-List: A Lady in the Wilderness: Amelia Douglas Date: 16 Jul 2001 07:51:13 -0600 I wrote this for the 19cWoman list, but I thought you folks might like it too. If you're interested in joining 19cWoman, a mailing list on women in the 19th century, send a blank e-mail to 19cWoman-subscribe@yahoogroups.com, or go to www.yahoogroups.com/group/19cWoman/join. And now for our story: This is actually the story of two women, a mother and her daughter. In 1803, at the North West Company's Rat River post (near the Athabasca region of NE Alberta), fur trader William Connolly took a wife. His bride, Susanne Pas-de-Nom, was the daughter of a Cree chief, and their wedding meant that his furs would go to the Connolly's employer, and not the rival Hudson's Bay Company. There were no priests or ministers for well over a thousand miles in any direction, so William and Susanne couldn't have a church wedding; instead, they were married after the custom of the country ("a la facon de la pays"). They remained together for almost thirty years, and had six children together. Together, they prospered, and with the 1821 merger of the North West Company and Hudson's Bay Company, William Connolly became a Chief Factor in the new company. Connolly's work to the family to different fur posts. So it was that in 1828, at Fort St. James (in N. British Columbia), Susanne's 16-year-old daughter, Amelia, married Hudson's Bay Company trader James Douglas, again according to the custom of the country. Only two months later, while her father was away from the fur post, Amelia's new husband got into serious trouble. The HBC had been looking for several local Native men in association with a murder a few years ago. James Douglas discovered one of the suspects in the home of a local chief, apprehended him, and executed him. When Chief Kwah returned, he learned what had happened. Although he had no knowledge of the man's presence in his home, Carrier Indian tradition made a chief's home a sanctuary, a rule which Douglas had seriously violated. Kwah stormed into the fur post, seized Douglas, and held a dagger to his throat. Amelia was horrified by the situation. Amelia rushed Kwah, and succeeded in wrestling the dagger away from him, but he quickly regained it, then let her go. Luckily, Amelia and the interpreter's wife, Nancy Boucher, were familiar with local customs. The pair began throwing trade goods to Kwah and his men. This throwing of gifts was a way of showing respect among the Carriers. With this diplomatic "out", Kwah was able to back down and let Douglas live. In 1830, James Douglas was posted to the HBC's establishment at Fort Vancouver (Vancouver, Washington). And in 1831, William Connolly retired from the fur trade, and went to live near Montreal with his "country wife", Susanne. Less than a year later, she found out that marriage "according to the custom of the country" was no marriage at all in civilized Lower Canada. Despite their 28 years and six children together, the Catholic Church agreed with Connolly that he was not married to Susanne, and was free to marry his second cousin, Julia Woolrich. Susanne was given a modest income, and sent back west, to the HBC's Red River Settlement (Winnipeg). This probably explains why, on 28 Feb 1837, James and Amelia Douglas had a second marriage ceremony, this time performed by the rather obnoxious Anglican minister, Rev. Herbert Beaver. He had been trying to get all the fur traders to solemnize their unions, but his tactics left something to be desired. He ignored the fact that there had, until very recently, been no clergy of any kind west of Montreal, and he and his wife Jane spent much of their time and energy railing at the "immorality" of these unions. Even after the wedding, the Douglases were not free from his contempt; Amelia was described by the Beavers as "little calculated to improve the manners of society". Not surprisingly, Rev. Beaver performed only the one wedding at Fort Vancouver before he was forced to return to England. James Douglas' star in the Hudson's Bay Company continued to rise, and he even came to the attention of the British government. In 1851, he became Governor of the Crown Colony of Vancouver Island. In 1858, when the Cariboo gold rush swelled the mainland population, he also became Governor of the Crown Colony of British Columbia. Amelia, who had at first been quite shy because of her poor English, grew into her role as the first lady of the new colonies, welcoming the many new White visitors and immigrants. In 1861, she played hostess to Lady John Franklin, who she favourably impressed. And in 1863, when her husband was knighted in recognition of his service to the Crown, she was entitled to style herself Lady Douglas. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronald Schrotter Subject: MtMan-List: Shaping a Hat Date: 16 Jul 2001 07:42:36 -0700 (PDT) Steam or water work well to shape a felt hat, but here is a trick for getting it to hold its shape once you get it like you want. Spray the entire hat with liquid spray starch. I got this from an old cowboy friend of mine, and it really works. After riding in several rain storms with him his hat still retains its shape long after mine loses all semblance to its original form. It will also stiffen up a floppy brim. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question....2 point blanket Date: 16 Jul 2001 11:12:33 EDT In a message dated 7/16/01 5:35:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time, tipis@mediaone.net writes: << Was there one that size?? >> Linda, In checking James Hanson's 'Point Blankets', he mentions that blankets of one to five points were sold to the Indians, six to twelves for settler's bedding. He also states that most North West Co. orders consisted of blankets from one to three points. As far as the size of a two-pointer, the Office Of Indian Trade (1809) specifies that a two point blanket be 43 X 53 inches. The North American Fur Co (1840) specified 42 X 56 inches. The Whitney records (1900) show 42 X 57. It appears that after WWII, the 1 1/2 point blanket was increased in size to 42 X 60, and the 'modern blanket' size chart does not show a two point blanket at all. Hope this is of some help, Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Working a hat without messing it up. Date: 16 Jul 2001 11:13:10 EDT In a message dated 7/15/01 10:47:06 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Hawkengun@aol.com writes: << Is there any way to stiffen the brim a little? >> Saturate with Sizing or Starch, shape and let dry. Starch has more 'hold' or stiffness than Sizing; both are available at the local market. Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question....2 point blanket Date: 16 Jul 2001 12:51:35 EDT In a message dated 7/16/1 1:35:58 PM, tipis@mediaone.net writes: <> Very well covered in "A Toast to the Fur Trade" by the late Robert C. Wheeler, page 62. Two point blankets were 42" X 50". Two and a half point were very popular at 50" X 66". This is an excellent book for researchers of the fur trade. I really cherish my autographed copy. The author himself spent many years in research and chairing organizations dedicated to expanding information about the trade and the period. He was notably involved in underwater archaeology which is a boon, realizing so many period deposits of trade goods were a result of canoe tip-overs never recovered. Robert's son, Jon, is the driving force at Track of the Wolf - a good place to secure a copy. Sincerly, Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Working a hat without messing it up. Date: 16 Jul 2001 13:04:28 EDT In a message dated 7/16/1 4:13:56 PM, LivingInThePast@aol.com writes: << << Is there any way to stiffen the brim a little? >> >> Hatters use shelac greatly thinned with alcohol (add to the shelac - not the wearer). RJames ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: question....2 point blanket Date: 16 Jul 2001 13:08:25 EDT In a message dated 7/16/1 5:52:50 PM, SWzypher@aol.com writes: <<2 point. Was there one that size??>> Very well covered in "A Toast to the Fur Trade" by the late Robert C. Wheeler, page 62. Two point blankets were 42" X 50">> A Correction - Please Bad typing or bad eyes - I do both. Correct size per Mr. Wheeler's book: 42" X 58" Sorry for the error Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Working a hat without messing it up. Date: 16 Jul 2001 14:27:10 -0400 On Mon, 16 Jul 2001 13:04:28 EDT SWzypher@aol.com writes: > > Hatters use shelac greatly thinned with alcohol (add to the shelac - > not the > wearer). > RJames pard--- believe i prefer the other way medicinal of course??????? GBG and probably 86 proof in a black labeled bottel or fine crock jug -- Nuff said "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Working a hat without messing it up. Date: 16 Jul 2001 17:33:12 EDT In a message dated 7/16/1 7:46:15 PM, hawknest4@juno.com writes: <> The subject was "hats" and if your method tilts your hat the way you like it best . . . . . . . . . You'll be the only person I know tht consumes bug poop (shelac). RJames ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Working a hat without messing it up. (OT) Date: 16 Jul 2001 16:43:42 -0500 At 05:33 PM 7/16/01 -0400, you wrote: >You'll be the only person I know tht consumes bug poop (shelac). >RJames Dick, That's not quite accurate. Most folks on this list have eaten several pounds of shellac (bug poop) in their lives. Look at the ingredient list on shiny candy. If one of the ingredients is "Confectioner's Glaze" you are eating the genuine article. Real shellac, highly refined but real nonetheless; Junior Mints are the real thing. It's the whale puke women folk keep rubbing all over their bodies that causes me concern. What a nasty habit, and they nearly all do it; or want to. John... OK! So whose smart ideA was it to put the CAPSLOCK kEy rIGHT nExT TO tHE sHiFt kEy ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Victoria Pate Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Working a hat without messing it up. (OT) Date: 16 Jul 2001 22:51:02 -0500 > That's not quite accurate. Most folks on this list have eaten > several pounds of shellac (bug poop) in their lives. > It's the whale puke women folk keep rubbing all over their bodies > that > causes me concern. What a nasty habit, and they nearly all do it; > or want to. > > John... Ok, John, I'll bite. What is this whale puke we wimmin are supposedly rubbing all over our bodies?? Is it PC? Can I use it in place of Bore Butter? Victoria ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hsteven-pepke@webtv.net (Steve Pepke) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Working a hat without messing it up. (OT) Date: 16 Jul 2001 23:27:41 -0700 (PDT) Hi Victoria, I think he's talking about ambergris, a component of some perfumes. Steve ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Working a hat without messing it up. Date: 17 Jul 2001 06:24:38 -0600 As for shaping the brim of the hat I suggest sleeping with the it on the ground. Mike Powell tells me that using it for a hand towel adds strength and charactor. Also trees, sweat, and dust help. The only other thing I would add is do not be afraid to let the brim bend up, see Millers works like the picture of Walker. This aint no cowboy hat. Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Working a hat without messing it up. Date: 17 Jul 2001 08:37:28 EDT --part1_d1.96cf873.28858b88_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wynn Now that's about the best advice I've heard so far. Make the hat lived in you might say. The only thing I might add is don't start out with a cheep hat. For most of them never had any body in them to begin with so they never will hold much of a shape. The only problem I've had with this method is just about the time they start feeling like home they start falling a part, of coarse it that a few years. My last hat was about 9 years old when I had to retire it do to rot. On the trail Crazy Cyot --part1_d1.96cf873.28858b88_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wynn
Now that's about the best advice I've heard so far. Make the hat lived in you
might say. The only thing I might add is don't start out with a cheep hat.
For most of them never had any body in them to begin with so they never will
hold much of a shape.
The only problem I've had with this method is just about the time they start
feeling like home they start falling a part, of coarse it that a few years.
My last hat was about 9 years old when I had to retire it do to rot.
On the trail
Crazy Cyot --part1_d1.96cf873.28858b88_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Working a hat without messing it up. (OT) Date: 17 Jul 2001 09:52:35 EDT In a message dated 7/16/1 10:46:11 PM, kramer@kramerize.com writes: <> John - you have no idea how you have lifted my spirits today. Grazzi Dick ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Working a hat without messing it up. (OT) Date: 17 Jul 2001 13:15:06 -0500 Ambergris A scent fixative in perfume, the more expensive the perfume the more certain one of the most expensive substances in the world is included. Technically it may not be puke, originating in the intestine as it does. As it is found floating as waste in the ocean it is not prohibited for collection or possession. John... At 10:51 PM 7/16/01 -0500, you wrote: > > That's not quite accurate. Most folks on this list have eaten > > several pounds of shellac (bug poop) in their lives. > > > It's the whale puke women folk keep rubbing all over their bodies > > that > > causes me concern. What a nasty habit, and they nearly all do it; > > or want to. > > > > John... > > Ok, John, I'll bite. What is this whale puke we > wimmin are supposedly rubbing all over our bodies?? > Is it PC? Can I use it in place of Bore Butter? > > Victoria __________________________________________________________ "Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything." -Joseph Stalin ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "pat broehl" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muleskinners/shoes Date: 17 Jul 2001 12:09:22 -0700 Greetings to the list and to Glenn, Possibly along this line, I've been keeping an eye peeled for any mention of applying iron shoes to the mules and or horses that were used. I have not as yet caught up with any such discussion. Does any one have an interest or input toward this? Thank you in advance, Itsaquain >From: "Glenn Darilek" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: MtMan-List: Muleskinners >Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 07:55:01 -0500 > >The word 'Muleskinner' is probably not period correct. According to >Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, the words 'mule skinner' were >not >used until 1870. The word 'muleteer' was used as far back as 1538. > >Glenn Darilek >Iron Burner > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Chance Tiffie" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muleskinners/shoes Date: 18 Jul 2001 02:12:03
With a little time devoted to reading thru the invoices and such on Dean's site, you'll find references to shoes, nails, and shoeing tools being carried west with fur brigades. There is also record of payments made to blacksmiths in the western most settlements for such work.
Cliff

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---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Victoria Pate Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Working a hat without messing it up. (OT) Date: 18 Jul 2001 16:41:47 -0500 On Mon, 16 Jul 2001 23:27:41 -0700 (PDT) hsteven-pepke@webtv.net (Steve Pepke) writes: > Hi Victoria, > I think he's talking about ambergris, a component of some perfumes. > Steve > Hi Steve, I'm not surprised you know about this whale puke. Thank goodness its not an ingredient in old fashioned rose oil! Victoria > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: shellac Date: 18 Jul 2001 17:28:29 -0500 I always thought that shellac was made from the boiled shells [wings] of a particular beetle. Ya know, 'shell'-ac. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shellac Date: 18 Jul 2001 17:40:53 -0500 NOPE. It is the exudations of insects gathered off trees. It's first designation in it's least processed form; is as stick lac. Cochineal is derived from insect body parts but not by the method you describe. John... At 05:28 PM 7/18/01 -0500, you wrote: > I always thought that shellac was made from the boiled shells [wings] of >a particular beetle. Ya know, 'shell'-ac. >Frank G. Fusco >Mountain Home, Arkansas >http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html "A Bill of Rights is what the people are entitled to against every government on Earth... and what no just government should refuse." --Thomas Jefferson ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Hobble stones Date: 18 Jul 2001 19:54:17 EDT --part1_80.d3d4516.28877ba9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Saw what they called hobble stones in a fire place at the Mormon hand cart museum near Independence Rock Wyo. how did they use them. They looked a lot like tomahawk stones. Roadkill --part1_80.d3d4516.28877ba9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Saw what they called hobble stones in a fire place at the Mormon hand cart
museum near Independence Rock Wyo. how did they use them. They looked a lot
like tomahawk stones.
Roadkill --part1_80.d3d4516.28877ba9_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Tim Jewell" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hobble stones Date: 18 Jul 2001 20:06:27 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008A_01C10FC5.20A14B60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Saw what they called hobble stones... Hey Roadkill, Could that have been cobble stones? If so, they were used to pave = streets. If not, I have no clue. Tim ------=_NextPart_000_008A_01C10FC5.20A14B60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
>Saw=20 what they called hobble stones...
 
Hey=20 Roadkill,
 
Could that=20 have been cobble stones?  If so, they were used to pave =20 streets.  If not, I have no clue.
 
Tim
------=_NextPart_000_008A_01C10FC5.20A14B60-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: MtMan-List: Re Hobble Stones Date: 18 Jul 2001 21:07:05 -0700 As far as I know, a "hobble", in the form of a stone or iron weight, was something you tied to your horse's lead rope (or reins?) and dropped on the ground. A trained horse would stay put, thinking he was tied securely to a picket. Laurel and Hardy had an amusing gag where their Model T refused to move until they picked up their hobble and set it in the car. Pat Quilter. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hobble stones Date: 19 Jul 2001 00:57:13 EDT In a message dated 7/18/01 5:08:29 PM, tjewell@home.com writes: << Hey Roadkill, Could that have been cobble stones? If so, they were used to pave streets. If not, I have no clue. Tim >> Ain't that what they tie to a horse to slow em down a bit? .... Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck_conner@email.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hobble stones Date: 19 Jul 2001 19:43:04 +0800 -----Original Message----- > Saw what they called hobble stones in a fire place at the Mormon hand cart > museum near Independence Rock Wyo. how did they use them. They looked a lot > like tomahawk stones. > Roadkill > Mark, The Amish use to use and may still use "hobble stones", they would have a heavy canvas bag with a loop to tie the reins to, inside they would place "hobble stones". Depending on the animal, horse or ox as to the number of stones required to keep them in one spot. I know they where still in use at least 25 years ago in PA and OH and had been around for 100's of years. Dennis Miles may be able to shed more light to the subject, as he deals with the clans back in that area. Todays cowboys would laugh at such things, as you know with your wife's family, John would have shot the animal if it wouldn't stay "ground tied", right. -- Take care, Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ AMM ~ LENAPE ~ NRA ~ HRD ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Rival the best - Surpass the rest". ___________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Make PC-to-Phone calls with Net2Phone. Sign-up today at: http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/link.cgi?121 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hobble stones Date: 19 Jul 2001 10:37:18 -0400 Mark, As Buck said, Hobble Stones are still used here to some extent. Generally at the Farm Fleet or Wally World stores, where there is nowhere to tie off. Of course, nowadays, there is also generally a boy used to hard work with the rig to discourage the unseemly crowd. Those boys can be good discouragers.. Right Buck?? Well, back outside, like working in a sauna today. But Brother Magpie will be a happy man later. D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Knives and Iron Accouterments http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning." ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hobble stones Date: 19 Jul 2001 12:10:47 EDT In a message dated 7/19/01 7:38:25 AM, deforge1@bright.net writes: << Well, back outside, like working in a sauna today. But Brother Magpie will be a happy man later. D >> Haaaaaaa....ya know, I'm feelin better already! Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Paul W. Jones" Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 11:47:33 -0500 Date: 19 Jul 2001 10:54:46 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006E_01C11048.98F27200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, I have also started a new egroup. Right now I am the lone member. You may subscribe at: colonialangling-subscribe@yahoogroups.com The group is about: A continuing dialogue about fishing in Colonial = America, both course and with fly, the equipment, techniques and = concepts then practiced, and a practical recreation of that era by = modern angler/historians. Frankly, I intend to deal with broader issues within the general = framework of fishing as practiced in the new world from point of first = contact through about 1850. We will deal with bait (course) fishing, = fly fishing, period tackle and how to make it, and simply anything that = is of interest to reenactors, fisherpersons, museum personnel,and etc. Please spread the word if you are interested or know of someone who is = interested in fishing as it relates to our America fishing history.=20 Regards. Paul W. Jones CLARK & SONS MERCANTILE, INC. "One Who Trades" "Uno quien negocia" "Unqui commerce" English Spanish = French Visit our Web-Page at http://www.clarkandsons.com/ P.O. Box 270844 Houston, Texas 77277-0844 (713) 839-7884 = Fax (713) 668-9589=20 ------=_NextPart_000_006E_01C11048.98F27200 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
Well, I have also started a new = egroup.  Right=20 now I am the lone member.
 
You may subscribe at:
 
colonialangling= -subscribe@yahoogroups.com
 
The group is about: =20 A continuing dialogue about = fishing in=20 Colonial America, both course and with fly, the equipment, techniques = and=20 concepts then practiced, and a practical recreation of that era by = modern=20 angler/historians.
 
Frankly, I intend to deal with=20 broader issues within the general framework of fishing as practiced = in the=20 new world from point of first contact through about 1850.  We = will=20 deal with bait (course) fishing, fly fishing, period tackle and how to = make it,=20 and simply anything that is of interest to reenactors, fisherpersons, = museum=20 personnel,and etc.
 
Please spread the word if you are = interested or=20 know of someone who is interested in fishing as it relates to our = America=20 fishing history. 
 
Regards.
 
Paul W. Jones
 
CLARK & SONS MERCANTILE,=20 INC.
 
"One Who Trades"  "Uno quien = negocia" =20 "Unqui commerce"
 
       =20 English           =             &= nbsp;   =20 Spanish           =             &= nbsp;     =20 French
 
Visit our Web-Page at http://www.clarkandsons.com/
 
P.O. Box 270844  Houston, Texas=20 77277-0844         (713)=20 839-7884
          &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;   =20 Fax  (713) 668-9589
------=_NextPart_000_006E_01C11048.98F27200-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hobble stones Date: 19 Jul 2001 18:44:18 -0500 At 07:43 PM 7/19/01 +0800, Buck wrote: >The Amish use to use and may still use "hobble stones", they would have = a=20 >heavy canvas bag with a loop to tie the reins to, inside they would plac= e=20 >"hobble stones". Around here most Amish use iron hitching weights. Cast iron weights in=20 various shapes and sizes from 15 to over 50 lbs. When you park horses ne= xt=20 to cars it helps to have a small reminder on the end of the tie rope or=20 reins if you don't have something more substantial to tie to. I have see= n=20 some folks using old scale weights for the purpose, others have weights=20 that were specifically cast to the chore. A well trained horse will ground tie as long as it isn't spooked. A=20 spooked horse is a spooked horse and a small reminder of its training (a=20 hitching weight) can help return calm. Every horse can be spooked by=20 something, at least a little. I had one I was riding go 12 feet sideways= =20 because a mouse crossed in front of us; a spooky day set off what was=20 usually a calm animal. I think old timers on the trail used the stones that Roadkill asked about= =20 differently. Someone ought to take a few out on the trail and find out=20 exactly how best they work. Every horse & mule I ever owned in about 30 minutes or less figured out h= ow=20 to move almost as fast with hobbles as without. If they offered any=20 restriction it only could have been measured in miles and top speed. When you are dependent on forage to feed your animals they need to be abl= e=20 to forage. If you enjoy the luxury of a large remuda you can feed in=20 shifts and always keep one under saddle. If all your animals work every=20 day they all need a goodly amount of time to eat everyday. The mountains= =20 ain't got many spots belly deep in oat grass. The poorer the landscape t= he=20 more time they need. It can be difficult maintaining control and keeping= =20 the animals fed. It don't take much to set a horse to running, often you never know for su= re=20 what done it. If one does they all will, if they can. A whiff of lion o= r=20 bear on the wind is a pretty certain long hike for you; if you aren't=20 firmly in control. Seismic exploration assholes setting off explosions,=20 within 100 yards, at dawn; will do it for certain. It's when you turn yo= ur=20 saddle horse out to graze you are most vulnerable. I think hobble stones were tied in with probably cross or side lined=20 hobbles so they would bounce around the animals feet if they got to movin= g=20 fast and discourage them from traveling far. They could have been=20 suspended knee high and perhaps work as well? I am not sure how they wer= e=20 best used, I just don't think they were used like Amish portable hitching= =20 posts. Smooth, rounded, grooved stones (like berry mashers) were chosen (or made= )=20 so as to offer the least opportunity to snag and still tie securely. John... John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hobble stones Date: 19 Jul 2001 17:56:34 -0700 John, I sen't Lance Grabowski's paper work to John Link, looks like Lance is bac= k among the living. This is a great thing. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: John Kramer >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hobble stones >Date: Thu, Jul 19, 2001, 4:44 PM > >At 07:43 PM 7/19/01 +0800, Buck wrote: >>The Amish use to use and may still use "hobble stones", they would have a= >>heavy canvas bag with a loop to tie the reins to, inside they would place= >>"hobble stones". > > >Around here most Amish use iron hitching weights. Cast iron weights in >various shapes and sizes from 15 to over 50 lbs. When you park horses nex= t >to cars it helps to have a small reminder on the end of the tie rope or >reins if you don't have something more substantial to tie to. I have seen= >some folks using old scale weights for the purpose, others have weights >that were specifically cast to the chore. > >A well trained horse will ground tie as long as it isn't spooked. A >spooked horse is a spooked horse and a small reminder of its training (a >hitching weight) can help return calm. Every horse can be spooked by >something, at least a little. I had one I was riding go 12 feet sideways >because a mouse crossed in front of us; a spooky day set off what was >usually a calm animal. > >I think old timers on the trail used the stones that Roadkill asked about >differently. Someone ought to take a few out on the trail and find out >exactly how best they work. > >Every horse & mule I ever owned in about 30 minutes or less figured out ho= w >to move almost as fast with hobbles as without. If they offered any >restriction it only could have been measured in miles and top speed. > >When you are dependent on forage to feed your animals they need to be able= >to forage. If you enjoy the luxury of a large remuda you can feed in >shifts and always keep one under saddle. If all your animals work every >day they all need a goodly amount of time to eat everyday. The mountains >ain't got many spots belly deep in oat grass. The poorer the landscape th= e >more time they need. It can be difficult maintaining control and keeping >the animals fed. > >It don't take much to set a horse to running, often you never know for sur= e >what done it. If one does they all will, if they can. A whiff of lion or= >bear on the wind is a pretty certain long hike for you; if you aren't >firmly in control. Seismic exploration assholes setting off explosions, >within 100 yards, at dawn; will do it for certain. It's when you turn you= r >saddle horse out to graze you are most vulnerable. > >I think hobble stones were tied in with probably cross or side lined >hobbles so they would bounce around the animals feet if they got to moving= >fast and discourage them from traveling far. They could have been >suspended knee high and perhaps work as well? I am not sure how they were= >best used, I just don't think they were used like Amish portable hitching >posts. > >Smooth, rounded, grooved stones (like berry mashers) were chosen (or made)= >so as to offer the least opportunity to snag and still tie securely. > >John... > >John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 > >Kramer's Best Antique Improver > >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< >=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< > > > >mail to: > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hobble stones Date: 19 Jul 2001 23:21:06 EDT --part1_68.1193db52.2888fda2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John You have described what they look like and how the lady at the museum explained there use. Attached to the hobble hitting against the horses legs when moving too fast. Was hoping someone could verify her thoughts. This is just one of the neat things I saw on the way to National. An other was a clay pipe uncovered while I was present at an excavation of a trading post, just west of Hells Gate, burnt by the Mormons during the time Bridger Post was burnt does anyone have any information on it. Better to count rib than horse tracks Mark 'Roadkill" Loader --part1_68.1193db52.2888fda2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John
You have described what they look like and how the lady at the museum
explained there use. Attached to the hobble hitting against the horses legs
when moving too fast. Was hoping someone could verify her thoughts. This is
just one of the neat things I saw on the way to National. An other was a clay
pipe uncovered while I was present at an excavation of a trading post, just
west of Hells Gate, burnt by the Mormons during the time Bridger Post was
burnt does anyone have any information on it.
Better to count rib than horse tracks
Mark 'Roadkill" Loader --part1_68.1193db52.2888fda2_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hobble stones Date: 19 Jul 2001 22:38:24 -0500 Roadkill, Dug up stuff seems to show up when you're around. Why is that? John... At 11:21 PM 7/19/01 -0400, you wrote: >John >You have described what they look like and how the lady at the museum >explained there use. Attached to the hobble hitting against the horses legs >when moving too fast. Was hoping someone could verify her thoughts. This is >just one of the neat things I saw on the way to National. An other was a clay >pipe uncovered while I was present at an excavation of a trading post, just >west of Hells Gate, burnt by the Mormons during the time Bridger Post was >burnt does anyone have any information on it. >Better to count rib than horse tracks >Mark 'Roadkill" Loader "Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence." Napoleon Bonaparte. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck_conner@email.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hobble stones Date: 20 Jul 2001 19:46:25 +0800 -----Original Message----- > Mark, > As Buck said, Hobble Stones are still used here to some extent. Generally at the Farm Fleet or Wally World stores, where there is nowhere to tie off. Of course, nowadays, there is also generally a boy used to hard work with the rig to discourage the unseemly crowd. Those boys can be good discouragers.. Right Buck?? > D > ---------------------- Most of those young boys/men are brother Miles size, they don't believe in fighting per say, but a brotherly hug will break a few of your ribs if need be. I think of those earlier years Dennis when in your country and my ribs still hurt from their friendlyness . "say not". -- Take care, Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ AMM ~ LENAPE ~ NRA ~ HRD ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Rival the best - Surpass the rest". ___________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Talk More, Pay Less with Net2Phone Direct(R), up to 1500 minutes free! http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/link.cgi?143 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: slikrickabn@netscape.net (rick dixon) Subject: MtMan-List: Winter Song Date: 20 Jul 2001 09:50:04 -0400 Guys Did a Winter Song magazine ever come out this year? I had heard that a final one was going to be issued, but I haven't received anything yet- anyone heard any thing? Rick __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hobble stones Date: 20 Jul 2001 07:58:44 -0700 > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3078460725_85167_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Mark, The U.S. Army was sen't out to put down a Mormon uprising in the 1850's. The uprising did not exist, but Brigam Young figured that the U.S. had declared war on the Mormons. To keep the Army from doing it's work Brigham Young sent a detatchment of Militia to scorch the earth in front of the Army to keep supplies and animal feed from them. Fort Bridger had been sold to the Mormons earlier so when they burned it down, they were burning there own property. Hell's gate I do not know about but it was destroyed for the same reason. There was also a large convoy of supplies following the army that the mormon's destroyed by loosing the animals and burning the wagons. It is interesting that Bill Cody was an employee of the convoy when it was destroyed. By destroying the supply train the Army ground to a halt and dam near starved to death during the winter. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- John You have described what they look like and how the lady at the museum explained there use. Attached to the hobble hitting against the horses legs when moving too fast. Was hoping someone could verify her thoughts. This is just one of the neat things I saw on the way to National. An other was a clay pipe uncovered while I was present at an excavation of a trading post, just west of Hells Gate, burnt by the Mormons during the time Bridger Post was burnt does anyone have any information on it. Better to count rib than horse tracks Mark 'Roadkill" Loader --MS_Mac_OE_3078460725_85167_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: MtMan-List: Hobble stones Mark,
The U.S. Army was sen't out to put down a Mormon uprising in the 1850's. Th= e uprising did not exist, but Brigam Young figured that the U.S. had declare= d war on the Mormons. To keep the Army from doing it's work Brigham Young se= nt a detatchment of Militia to scorch the earth in front of the Army to keep= supplies and animal feed from them. Fort Bridger had been sold to the Mormo= ns earlier so when they burned it down, they were burning there own property= . Hell's gate I do not know about but it was destroyed for the same reason. = There was also a large convoy of supplies following the army that the mormon= 's destroyed by loosing the animals and burning the wagons. It is interestin= g that Bill Cody was an employee of the convoy when it was destroyed. By des= troying the supply train the Army ground to a halt and dam near starved to d= eath during the winter.
YMOS
Ole # 718
----------


John
You have described what they look like and how the lady at the museum
explained there use. Attached to the hobble hitting against the horses legs=
when moving too fast. Was hoping someone could verify her thoughts. This is=
just one of the neat things I saw on the way to National. An other was a cl= ay
pipe uncovered while I was present at an excavation of a trading post, just=
west of Hells Gate, burnt by the Mormons during the time Bridger Post was <= BR> burnt does anyone have any information on it.
Better to count rib than horse tracks
Mark 'Roadkill" Loader
--MS_Mac_OE_3078460725_85167_MIME_Part-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rifle Cleaning Date: 20 Jul 2001 20:30:41 -0700 Thanks Pendleton. What's per usual is that it worked for the old timers and it works for the "new timers"! No sense in complicating a simple operation. Modern life is complicated enough as it is without cluttering up our "hobby" with modern ideas too. Capt. Lahti' (newly back from the Slopes of the Shinin' Mountains high up on the N. Fork Flathead) ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 4:39 PM > 1. slush it out with water. > 2. dry it out with extra patches/tow > 3. coat it good with bear grease, olive oil (sweet oil), any vegetable oil, > bee's wax and some kinda oil mix, et. > 4. check it after a while if your worried > > Capt. Lahti' > > > >As per usual Capt. , you have hit the nail squarely on the head. That > program, if followed to the "T", will work every time. > > Pendleton > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rifle Cleaning Date: 20 Jul 2001 22:54:21 -0600 No sense in complicating a simple operation. > Modern life is complicated enough as it is without cluttering up our "hobby" > with modern ideas too.> Capt. Lahti' > (newly back from the Slopes of the Shinin' Mountains high up on the N. Fork > Flathead) > Hey Roger, are you talking Pole Bridge? I shot ML's with list member TOF today on Clark Bottom. Actual history related to Clark of the Lewis and Clark Expetition and the American Mountain Men that camped in the longest camp I know of recorded in Montana. I cleaned my ML with 2 mouth fulls of water and used neatsfoot as ususal. Knee and joint oil was immediately available. How about that olive oil. Ain't she sweet.VBG Walt Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Hobble Stones Date: 21 Jul 2001 08:55:43 -0600 They are an interesting idea. The use of hobble stones as by the amish is one of the ways that the buckaroos train a horse to ground tie, but carrying along a lot rocks seems a waste if traveling very far. As for tieing on to regular hobbles that has possibilties. It could sore up an animal quick if he did not figure them out fast enough. The other advise with hobbles is to get the ones that are real short between the front feet to much room and a horse can really travel. Most of those expensive things in the tack shops are useless. Anyway, I wonder how long a tether you would put between the hobble and the rock My guess is the rock is smooth and about 4" by 2" with a narrow spot in the middle? Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rifle Cleaning Date: 21 Jul 2001 09:54:07 -0700 > Hey Roger, are you talking Pole Bridge? > I shot ML's with list member TOF today on Clark Bottom. Yes, Polebridge. Was there from a week ago Friday to Thursday morning this week. Had a great time and did get to meet TOF Wednesday when we finally connected. Nice guy. Wish I had felt better and we could have spent more time together. > > I cleaned my ML with 2 mouth fulls of water and used neatsfoot as ususal. > Knee and joint oil was immediately available. How about that olive oil. > Ain't she sweet.VBG Actually I don't know why they call it "sweet oil". I was taking a sip of "spirits" at bed time while up at the "Pacifics" a couple weeks back out of my copper flask. Woke up early morning before dawn one day and grabbed the wrong flask, the one with "sweet oil" in it! Let me tell you, that is a wakeup call! Slides down easy but that's all there is to be said for it taken straight. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck_conner@email.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hobble stones Date: 22 Jul 2001 07:10:51 +0800 Set em' straight brother, Isn't government policy amazing, doesn't matter if it was 200 years ago, Vietnan or today, all our elected officials know is send in the troops, and who pays for it - we do. Either with our lives, someone elses or our pocket books, then history gets recorded several different ways. Thanks Ole for keeping the books straight. Buck. __________________________________ > Mark, > The U.S. Army was sen't out to put down a Mormon uprising in the 1850's. The > uprising did not exist, but Brigam Young figured that the U.S. had declared > war on the Mormons. To keep the Army from doing it's work Brigham Young sent > a detatchment of Militia to scorch the earth in front of the Army to keep > supplies and animal feed from them. Fort Bridger had been sold to the > Mormons earlier so when they burned it down, they were burning there own > property. Hell's gate I do not know about but it was destroyed for the same > reason. There was also a large convoy of supplies following the army that > the mormon's destroyed by loosing the animals and burning the wagons. It is > interesting that Bill Cody was an employee of the convoy when it was > destroyed. By destroying the supply train the Army ground to a halt and dam > near starved to death during the winter. > YMOS > Ole # 718 > ---------- > From: MarkLoader@aol.com > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hobble stones > Date: Thu, Jul 19, 2001, 8:21 PM > > > John > You have described what they look like and how the lady at the museum > explained there use. Attached to the hobble hitting against the horses legs > when moving too fast. Was hoping someone could verify her thoughts. This is > just one of the neat things I saw on the way to National. An other was a > clay > pipe uncovered while I was present at an excavation of a trading post, just > west of Hells Gate, burnt by the Mormons during the time Bridger Post was > burnt does anyone have any information on it. > Better to count rib than horse tracks > Mark 'Roadkill" Loader > -- Take care, Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ AMM ~ LENAPE ~ NRA ~ HRD ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Rival the best - Surpass the rest". ___________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Talk More, Pay Less with Net2Phone Direct(R), up to 1500 minutes free! http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/link.cgi?143 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Hobble stones Date: 22 Jul 2001 16:57:00 EDT In a message dated 7/21/01 4:12:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time, buck_conner@email.com writes: << who pays for it - we do. Either with our lives, someone elses or our pocket books, >> It struck me odd in '72 that I sent in enough in income taxes to pay my Air Force's Sgt's wage for one month -- well, it was a few bucks over what I made. Guess the bean counters had to get their cut, huh? NM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rifle Cleaning Date: 22 Jul 2001 16:56:59 EDT In a message dated 7/21/01 9:54:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time, rtlahti@email.msn.com writes: << grabbed the wrong flask, the one with "sweet oil" in it! Let me tell you, that is a wakeup call! Slides down easy but that's all there is to be said for it taken straight. >> Nor is there much "sweet" about the after effects! NM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: mildew on buckskin Date: 22 Jul 2001 20:13:47 EDT need some help guys, Found some mildew on some of my old skins, whats good to remove it? Traphand Rick Petzoldt Traphand@aol.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mildew on buckskin Date: 22 Jul 2001 22:38:22 EDT In a message dated 7/22/01 8:14:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Traphand@aol.com writes: << Found some mildew on some of my old skins, whats good to remove it? >> Best bet is to contact Matt Richards at Braintan.com and ask him about the dilemna. At first whack, it seems a weak acid solution of watered down vinegar may work but Matt or one of his close cronies could point you in the right direction. Course good ol' sunlight may help too!!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mildew on buckskin Date: 22 Jul 2001 23:15:02 -0400 > << Found some mildew on some of my old skins, whats good > to remove it? >> ************* > At first whack, it seems a weak acid solution of watered down vinegar may > work I had the same thing happen to my skins when I lived in Florida. I used a 50/50 vinegar and water mix and it took it right off. Put them in the sun to dry.... No problem... Ad Miller Alderson, WV ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Miller's sketches Date: 22 Jul 2001 22:14:13 -0600 Magpie, Yesterday, seen another orginal sketch at the Denver Art Museum. "Indian Guide" , 1837, if I remember right. Seventh floor, had not seen it before. mike. SWcushing@aol.com wrote: > Hallo the List, > > Does anyone know where the original sketches done by Alfred Miller are > located? I think someone once said they were in France somewhere, and I've > got a kid over there that would take some pictures of them, if she knew where > to go.... > > Ymos, > Magpie > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Miller's sketches Date: 22 Jul 2001 22:27:07 -0600 Mike, Could you describe what "The Indian Guide" looked like? I hear tell that someone had recently "Discovered" a Miller painting that shows some very different dress styles than most of his painting. Maybe this is the painting. "Teton" Todd D. Glover http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: More Mules! Date: 22 Jul 2001 22:22:05 -0600 --------------01D501338FF407547540F91F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chance, Hate to dig up a old subject, but found a refernce you might like. It is from Hiram Chittenden's volume two, page915. "In compliance with your request in relation to my manner of equipping and moving paries of men through Indian country in the course of general excurions to the Rocky Mountains, I will observe that, as mules are as much the best animals for packing heavy burthens, each man has charge of two of them for the purpose and one horse to ride." Thomas Forsyth's letter to Lewis Cass 1833 He goes on to describe the equipment and organization of the party. mike. Chance Tiffie wrote: > Good stuff Allen!!! Two more points for the misunderstood mule.Cliff > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > ---------------------- hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html --------------01D501338FF407547540F91F Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chance,
    Hate to dig up a old subject, but found a refernce you might like.
It is from Hiram Chittenden's volume two, page915.
    "In compliance with your request in relation to my manner of equipping and moving paries of men through Indian country in the course of general excurions to the Rocky Mountains, I will observe that, as mules are as much the best animals for packing heavy burthens, each man has charge of two of them for the purpose and one horse to ride."
                              Thomas Forsyth's letter to Lewis Cass  1833
He goes on to describe the equipment and organization of the party.
                                                mike.
 

Chance Tiffie wrote:

Good stuff Allen!!! Two more points for the misunderstood mule.Cliff


Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
--------------01D501338FF407547540F91F-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Miller's sketches Date: 23 Jul 2001 01:29:41 EDT In a message dated 7/22/01 9:23:02 PM, amm1616@earthlink.net writes: << Yesterday, seen another orginal sketch at the Denver Art Museum. "Indian Guide" , 1837, if I remember right. Seventh floor, had not seen it before. >> Thanks Mike, I've checked the web a bit and not much to be found on Miller...and no luck on the orignal sketch book. I'm gonna get Rex Normans "The 1837 Schetchbook of the Western Fur Trade" ...it's got a lot of Miller's drawings in it. I need it for reference and ideas on stuff to make... Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Rank smellin rawhide Date: 23 Jul 2001 01:55:20 EDT In a message dated 7/22/01 8:08:34 PM, admiller@citynet.net writes: << I had the same thing happen to my skins when I lived in Florida. I used a 50/50 vinegar and water mix and it took it right off. Put them in the sun to dry.... >> I don't have mildew, but I've got a rawhide back pack that got wet and now, even though it's dry, smells kinda rank. I've tried smoking it a bit to get rid of the bad smell, but no luck. Any ideas on what would work? Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Rank smellin rawhide Date: 23 Jul 2001 07:33:17 -0400 Magpie, Are you SURE it is the pack that smells rank??? D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rifle Cleaning Date: 23 Jul 2001 07:47:54 -0400 cpt L did the sweet oil make you get up and run in the morning ??????inquiring minds you know--- nuff said--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Miller's sketches Date: 23 Jul 2001 07:16:06 -0700 Magpie, Page 55 of Marvin C. Ross book of Millers drawings. You should be able to get a copy at the Library or ebay. Ole ---------- >From: SWcushing@aol.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Miller's sketches >Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001, 10:29 PM > > >In a message dated 7/22/01 9:23:02 PM, amm1616@earthlink.net writes: > ><< Yesterday, seen another orginal sketch at the Denver Art >Museum. "Indian Guide" , 1837, if I remember right. Seventh floor, >had not seen it before. > >> > >Thanks Mike, >I've checked the web a bit and not much to be found on Miller...and no luck >on the orignal sketch book. I'm gonna get Rex Normans "The 1837 Schetchbook >of the Western Fur Trade" ...it's got a lot of Miller's drawings in it. I >need it for reference and ideas on stuff to make... > >Magpie > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Glenn Darilek" Subject: MtMan-List: Alfred Miller's Paintings Date: 23 Jul 2001 08:31:39 -0500 I think the largest collection is at the Walters Gallery in Baltimore. They have 200 water colors that Walters commissioned, as well as many oils. They only show a few at a time, but they used to have a small room with mostly his stuff. If you are a serious researcher, I think you can make arrangements to see the entire collection. I went there last month, and was very disappointed that they are still remodeling the gallery, and only one display of some oriental art was on view. I went there more than six months ago, and they were remodeling then also. Maybe the art connoisseurs are more interested in the building than the art. There are more of Miller's paintings at the Gilcrease? museum in Tulsa, though I have never seen them. I think that in Bernard deVoto's "Across the Wide Missouri" he listed the major repositories of Miller's work in the back of the book. That is how I found out about the Walters Gallery. I don't have them bookmarked, but I think there are at least 10 of his paintings on the internet. Glenn Darilek Iron Burner SWcushing@aol.com wrote: > Hallo the List, > > Does anyone know where the original sketches done by Alfred Miller are > located? I think someone once said they were in France somewhere, and I've > got a kid over there that would take some pictures of them, if she knew where > to go.... > > Ymos, > Magpie > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Rank smellin rawhide Date: 23 Jul 2001 09:56:52 -0400 > I've got a rawhide back pack that got wet and now, even though it's dry, smells kinda rank. I ran into that problem with a leather backpack I bought when I was on Crete. Got wet and smelled like dead fish!! Never did get rid of the smell. Finally got rid of the BP. That was 22 years ago. Now with newer oder neutralizers, they may work. Would suggest trying that in a "mist" from a spray bottle and not wiping it with a solution. Ad Miller Alderson, WV ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Rank smellin rawhide Date: 23 Jul 2001 08:23:21 -0700 D. You notice he didn't ask his hunting buddies?! Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 4:33 AM > Magpie, > Are you SURE it is the pack that smells rank??? > D > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rifle Cleaning Date: 23 Jul 2001 08:24:59 -0700 Hawk, Well inquiring minds will just have to wonder or try it themselves! Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 4:47 AM > cpt L > did the sweet oil make you get up and run in the morning ??????inquiring > minds you know--- > > nuff said--- > > "HAWK" > Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) > 854 Glenfield Dr. > Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 > E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: > http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce > > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Miller's sketches Date: 23 Jul 2001 11:49:03 EDT In a message dated 7/23/1 5:23:02 AM, amm1616@earthlink.net writes: < > Does anyone know where the original sketches done by Alfred Miller are > located?>> The one with the trapper standing in the water is in the Cody Museum in Wyoming. It is very small. Sometimes it is loaned out but I have been keeping my eye on it for thirty years and it is usually there over by the Catlin paintings. Dick James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Rank smellin rawhide Date: 23 Jul 2001 12:06:22 EDT In a message dated 7/23/1 6:56:54 AM, SWcushing@aol.com writes: << rawhide back pack that got wet and now, even though it's dry, smells kinda rank.>> The smell is from decay - fungus - bacterial activity . . . what everyou want to call it. Kill the little beasties with a disinfectant or every time they get moist they will begin their work again and you will smell the by-product. If you can get something on there that will penetrate their little cell walls through the osmotic process they will die and the deterioration will cease. Prime in breakdown are oxygen, sunlight, and bacteria. They all go to work on organic materials - sun and oxygen do the inorganics. RJames ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Rank smellin rawhide Date: 23 Jul 2001 13:41:03 -0400 Cap't, Yeah, I did... D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Rank smellin rawhide Date: 23 Jul 2001 14:28:50 EDT In a message dated 7/23/01 4:34:33 AM, deforge1@bright.net writes: << Magpie, Are you SURE it is the pack that smells rank??? D >> <> Haaaaa..... thanks for the helpful hints boys.... While I've been known to come out of the woods after a week, "smellin like a rose", I'm pretty sure it's the pack... Think I'll give it a light spray of Lysol first, then smoke it again. It's a neat, box like, pack and you can even eat it in starvin times.... with the right amount of whisky to wash it down. Hate to have to burn it. Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Miles folder... Date: 23 Jul 2001 14:37:00 EDT Wooooohooo! Dennis just sent me a slick little folder, that I dearly like! While it didn't come with the optional cork screw, tweezers, and hidden tooth pick, I'll still have sumtin sharp while I'm out plowing the fields wid my other knife.... Nice job, Dennis. Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jim gossett Subject: MtMan-List: trade gun? Date: 23 Jul 2001 17:06:48 -0500 I recently bought an origninal Trade Gun but it is somewhat puzzling. The gun is 58 cal smoothbore 38.5 inch barrel The flint lock is over 1.5 wide x 7" long with an 1810 date .Inside the lock on the tumbler is a number 44 . The lock also has a bridle. The ramrod pipes are very much like the 2nd model Brown Bess even the ram rod entrance pipe. All brass mountings small trihher guard like a Wilson but without the fineal. flat butt plate (brass) . The barrel has a fixed rear site and is painted black with this stamped on the barrel JPR | EXR|3. The gun is very well put together wood to metal fit etc.There is a V scratched on the inside of lock inside of the buttplate on the under side of the barrel and in the stock channel .The ramrod is metal and the frant site is like a bayonet stud . Any help would be good. Gentleman James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trade gun? Date: 23 Jul 2001 18:21:53 EDT Realizing HBC was still distributing these pieces into the 1880s (percussion by then) there is a chance for all manner of variations. I have to recall what Charlie Hansen told me one time: First he made the point that almost all were walnut stocked and he used to weigh them to make the point they were lighter than the maple stocked. The Vs were possibly 5s and were used to keep all the parts of that particular gun together. I have had an old barrel with the front sight looking like a bayonet lug but I can't remember the particulars. Some were painted, but usually a dull red. I have seen one, only, black. I have an original barrel found in the flood plain above the Snake River in Idaho. It has Fox-on-the-tombstone stamped along with many other proofs and viewed marks. It has half of the word "Warrented" stamped underneath near the breech plug. It is correct for the period with serifs on each letter. It is hard to tell if file marks were visible on "the part that showed". Where the wedding bands were, however, there was one ring filed all the way around the barrel - probably as a guide. The rest were filed only in "the part that showed". Something you might consider: At one time "Trade Guns" were distributed to the Indians having their own definition of the time. They were"Guns" and meant for "trade. The would shoot, but they were made up of whatever parts were at hand. I have one. It has no entry pipe, no butt plate and the trigger guard has been sprung from long (set triggers?) to single trigger but with a large bow - not quite a trade gun pattern. Until the beginning of World War II Belgium was sending flintlocks to Africa where cartridge gun ownership was illegal to the locals. They had a loose standard but they would be made pretty much from what was on hand. "Waste not -- want not." This may help you or it may give someone else a chance to say "No way! That ain't right!" Let me tell you how it REALLY is . . . . And a good day to you Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Miller's sketches Date: 23 Jul 2001 17:47:17 -0600 Todd, If I remember right, it is a muscular young man with a roach or mohawk cut of black hair. Bare chested, riding a horse. He is stopped next to Stewart, pointing off to his left. It is a ink with a small amount of water color wash. Like alot of Miller's field sketches, only the two men, (the Indian and Stewart) are in focus. Not a lot of detail, both have long guns with them laying over their saddles, nice horses. Todd, if you need more info, let me know. I can go back ( I live close to the museum) and am a member- so I get in free. Was disappointed in the main attraction there, the "European Masters". mike. Todd Glover wrote: > Mike, > > Could you describe what "The Indian Guide" looked like? I hear tell that > someone had recently "Discovered" a Miller painting that shows > some very different dress styles than most of his painting. Maybe this is > the painting. > > "Teton" Todd D. Glover > http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover Subject: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller Book Date: 23 Jul 2001 18:41:30 -0600 Speaking of Millers sketches......I have an exlibrary, first-edition, hard-bound "The West of Alfred Jacob Miller" that I would be willing to part with. (Have another one for my library.) If anyone is interested, I will run this like an auction, and will entertain offers until Saturday night. Between now and then I will keep you all posted on the current high bid. Of course I have set a reserve price which I feel is only fair. Look on bookfinder.com or some other used book site and see what these are going for. Open for bids....... Did I mention that everything above my cost goes to the land fund? "Teton" Todd D. Glover http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Miller's sketches Date: 23 Jul 2001 18:30:02 -0600 Mike, Thanks for the info. This doesn't sound like the reported "discovery" I heard about. The one I'm talking about supposedly has a Longhunter type character in it. Does the museum sell reproductions of the paintings there? "Teton" Todd D. Glover http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rifle Cleaning Date: 23 Jul 2001 22:08:22 -0400 CPT L this old pup aint going to bite on that one aint got time to squirt and run---(GBG) nuff said HAWK On Mon, 23 Jul 2001 08:24:59 -0700 "rtlahti" writes: > Hawk, > > Well inquiring minds will just have to wonder or try it themselves! > > Capt. Lahti' > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: oil cloth Date: 23 Jul 2001 23:32:30 EDT Mark Baker would be proud! For those considering making one, I just finished a neat little 7.5X7.5 oil cloth out of a queen size Egyptian cotton sheet. (220 threads per inch!) It took a little less than a quart of boiled linseed oil, (no thinner or turpentine added) and near a pound of yellow iron oxide to cover it well. Baker sez you need two days in the sun to dry, and seven in the shade to loose the smell... Hmmmm.... hard to get two days of sun in a row on this side of the Cascades, but will see how long it takes to dry and report back. I'm thinking this little shelter won't weigh more than a couple pounds when it's done. Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth Date: 23 Jul 2001 21:52:44 -0600 Magpie, Made a rain poncho outta the same kinda sheet. Works well. "Teton" Todd D. Glover http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth Date: 23 Jul 2001 23:57:04 EDT Hi Teton, Just looking at your web site..... Hey put me down for $50 for the book... doubt that's enough, but a start anyway. Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rifle Cleaning Date: 23 Jul 2001 20:58:53 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 7:08 PM > CPT L > > this old pup aint going to bite on that one aint got time to squirt and > run---(GBG) > > nuff said Hawk, No guts, no glory. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rifle Cleaning Date: 23 Jul 2001 21:18:37 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 7:08 PM > CPT L > > this old pup aint going to bite on that one aint got time to squirt and > run---(GBG) Hawk, No guts, no glory! Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Alfred Jacob Miller Book Date: 23 Jul 2001 21:28:32 -0700 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Todd, I haven't checked anything, but...I will start the bidding at $100 . hardtack . Open for bids....... Did I mention that everything above my cost goes to the land fund? "Teton" Todd D. Glover http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html ---------------------- --- Randal Bublitz --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing it from our Children ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Todd, I haven't checked anything, but...I will start the bidding at $100  .  hardtack
 

. Open for bids.......
 
Did I mention that everything above my cost goes to the land fund?
 
"Teton" Todd D. Glover
 
----------------------
 

 
--- Randal Bublitz
We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing it from our Children
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth Date: 23 Jul 2001 21:26:41 -0700 Hmmmm.... hard to get two days of sun in a row on this > side of the Cascades, but will see how long it takes to dry and report back. > I'm thinking this little shelter won't weigh more than a couple pounds when > it's done. Magpie, Until it dries, you can not camp within 100 yards of us-down wind! And no smoking! Of course we won't be able to smell your scent so there is an up side. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: oil cloth Date: 23 Jul 2001 21:33:34 -0700 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Magpie, I'm ignorant on fine sheets and such. Is egyptian cotton readily available? I did a search about a month ago and came up empty handed. I've heard of this material, and it's suitability for oilcloth, but I couldn't fing it. Please advise this pilgrm. Thanks, hardtack --- Randal Bublitz --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing it from our Children ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Magpie,  I'm ignorant on fine sheets and such.  Is egyptian cotton readily available?  I did a search about a month ago and came up empty handed.  I've heard of this material, and it's suitability for oilcloth, but I couldn't fing it.  Please advise this pilgrm.  Thanks, hardtack

 
--- Randal Bublitz
We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing it from our Children
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth Date: 23 Jul 2001 23:56:18 -0400 How about a KING sheet? Heh.... being 6'4", I'd need a larget one... Ad Miller Alderson, WV > For those considering making one, I just finished a neat little 7.5X7.5 oil > cloth out of a queen size Egyptian cotton sheet. (220 threads per inch!) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Gottschall" Subject: MtMan-List: Fort Buenaventura Rondezvous Date: 24 Jul 2001 12:06:02 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C11439.0217F360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I heard a rumor yesterday that the Rondezvous over Labaor Day Weekend = was cancelled at Fort Buenaventura in Ogden, Ut. Any truth to that? = Does anyone know of any other Rondezvous in Utah that weekend? ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C11439.0217F360 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I heard a rumor yesterday that the = Rondezvous over=20 Labaor Day Weekend was cancelled at Fort Buenaventura in Ogden, = Ut.  Any=20 truth to that?  Does anyone know of any other Rondezvous in Utah = that=20 weekend?
------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C11439.0217F360-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: trapper@cillnet.com (Brad Everett) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth Date: 24 Jul 2001 16:29:23 -0500 Trapper, Trek'n through time, backwards! ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 10:32 PM > For those considering making one, I just finished a neat little 7.5X7.5 oil > cloth out of a queen size Egyptian cotton sheet. (220 threads per inch!) > Baker sez you need two days in the sun to dry, and seven in the shade to > loose the smell... > Ymos, > Magpie HI magpie, just did a new haversack made of linen the same way. It dryed in about two days in the sun and three in the shade, but its been going on three weeks now, with very high humidity,and the odor is still quite strong. But it is quite waterproof and sure does look purty! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth Date: 24 Jul 2001 15:52:34 -0700 (PDT) As fer Oil cloth, I have found it to be smelly up to a year after making it, stiff in cold weather, and prone to tear. Now I could have used too much linseed, and or had poor quality linseed. but I have experimented on smaller stuff in differing quantities and amounts of iron oxide linseed thinner and so on. I've found it to be more trouble to make than it is worth Smoked canvas turns water well enough in my book. What are you experiences with its use? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: trapper@cillnet.com (Brad Everett) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth Date: 24 Jul 2001 18:25:33 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 10:32 PM > For those considering making one, I just finished a neat little 7.5X7.5 oil > cloth out of a queen size Egyptian cotton sheet. (220 threads per inch!) It > took a little less than a quart of boiled linseed oil, (no thinner or > turpentine added) and near a pound of yellow iron oxide to cover it well. Hey Magpie, two ?, how did you put the linseed oil on? Brush or soak? And where did you find the Egyptian cotton? Is it different than regular 200+ sheets? Thanks in advance. Trapper, Trek'n through time, backwards! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Daniel L. Smith" Subject: MtMan-List: trade gun? Date: 24 Jul 2001 18:42:49 -0600
Good evening boys,

Hate to say I told you so, but Buck Conner has a
1940's (yes 1940's) HBC gun that Hanson sold him,
Charley said it was  probably the last of the
"trade guns", looks like an H&R single shot break
open 20ga  gun with the "HBC" proof marks. Really
different, the museum had several and decided to
sell one, we where there when it was put up for
sale, Buck saw it and was the first to grab it,
smiled and looked at me and said "SOLD" - he
didn't even give Charley a chance to say how
much.

Well boys, haven't been on the list for a spell,
but couldn't pass on your little talk about
"trade guns", hate like heck to give him a big
head, but look at this site.

http://www.pages.about.com/buckconner/

click on: WEAPONS

takes you to here:
       
http://www.pages.about.com/buckconner/weapons.htm

click on:
"Success in the North American Fur Trade"

Here's a good reference that the man "Charles E.
Hanson" helped Buck with before moving on years
back, several magazines and the AMM T&LR ran this
in a 2 part issue a few years ago.







Later,
Daniel L. "Concho" Smith
_____________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT_______HRD__
http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/_________HRD__

    [Outdoor Ethics] "Leave No Trace"
_____________________________________________
Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com

---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: buck_conner@email.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trade gun? Date: 25 Jul 2001 09:06:17 +0800 -----Original Message----- > I recently bought an origninal Trade Gun but it is somewhat puzzling. The gun is 58 cal smoothbore 38.5 inch barrel The flint lock is over 1.5 wide x 7" long with an 1810 date .Inside the lock on the tumbler is a number 44 . The lock also has a bridle. The ramrod pipes are very much like the 2nd model Brown Bess even the ram rod entrance pipe. All brass mountings small trihher guard like a Wilson but without the fineal. flat butt plate (brass) . The barrel has a fixed rear site and is painted black with this stamped on the barrel JPR | EXR|3. The gun is very well put together wood to metal fit etc.There is a V scratched on the inside of lock inside of the buttplate on the under side of the barrel and in the stock channel .The ramrod is metal and the frant site is like a bayonet stud . Any help would be good. Gentleman James ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dick, Sounds like a parts gun, don't get excited "GJ", nothing wrong with a parts gun, I have one myself, it's a trade gun built out of left over pieces. Have seen several of these, according to what I have been told by Curly G., Charley H. and a few other collectors, they where usually assembled at the end of finishing a government contract. Like we need 4 more guns to finish the order and we're out of 42" barrels but have a few shorter barrels from another contract or the hardware is a little different but will do. Remember many of these companies where just assemblers of parts provided by other firms in Europe, probably the beginning of the "cottage industries" like we saw in the "hippie" days according to Hanson. I have a pre 1813 Sutherland, proofed, stamped w/ sitting fox, all the right marks and it has a Brown Bess style side plate ? Charley & Curly took one look and told me just what I told you. -- Take care, Buck Conner ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ AMM ~ LENAPE ~ NRA ~ HRD ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [Outdoor Ethics] "Leave No Trace" "Rival the best - Surpass the rest". ___________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Talk More, Pay Less with Net2Phone Direct(R), up to 1500 minutes free! http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/link.cgi?143 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Daniel L. Smith" Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth Date: 24 Jul 2001 19:14:12 -0600
---= -- Original Message -----
From: <SWcushing@aol.com>
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 10:32 PM

> For those considering making one, I just
finished a neat little 7.5X7.5
oil
> cloth out of a queen size Egyptian cotton
sheet. (220 threads per inch!) >
Baker sez you need two days in the sun to dry,
and seven in the shade to
> loose the smell... > Ymos,
> Magpie
=A0HI magpie, just did a new haversack made of
linen the same way. It dryed
in =A0about two days in the =A0sun and three in the
shade, but its been going on
three weeks now, with very high humidity,and the
odor is still quite strong.
But it is quite waterproof and sure does look
purty!
________________________________

Boys,

Becareful with this style of waterproofing until
really dry, then break it down (take the
stiffness out) with a smooth round creek rock, it
will make your cloth last twicw as long and won't
tear as easy.  I would store it where it get
plenty of air, had a friend back here in PA have
one light up and burn part of his storage
building, according to the fire marshall it had
dried enough and went up.  Good luck.


----------------------
hist_text list info:
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.htm
l

---- End Original Message ----







Later,
Daniel L. "Concho" Smith
_____________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT_______HRD__
http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/_________HRD__

    [Outdoor Ethics] "Leave No Trace"
_____________________________________________
Sign up for a= free About Email account at http://About.com

---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Fw: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth Date: 24 Jul 2001 20:21:47 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C1147E.43CC93C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Read the last part of this carefully. Under certain conditions linseed = oil soaked rags (or haversacks) will break down, generating enough heat = to spontaneously combust. Oops!! Lanney Ratcliff=20 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 10:32 PM Subject: MtMan-List: oil cloth > For those considering making one, I just=20 finished a neat little 7.5X7.5 oil > cloth out of a queen size Egyptian cotton=20 sheet. (220 threads per inch!) > Baker sez you need two days in the sun to dry,=20 and seven in the shade to > loose the smell... > Ymos, > Magpie HI magpie, just did a new haversack made of=20 linen the same way. It dryed in about two days in the sun and three in the=20 shade, but its been going on three weeks now, with very high humidity,and the=20 odor is still quite strong. But it is quite waterproof and sure does look=20 purty! ________________________________ Boys, Becareful with this style of waterproofing until=20 really dry, then break it down (take the=20 stiffness out) with a smooth round creek rock, it=20 will make your cloth last twicw as long and won't=20 tear as easy. I would store it where it get=20 plenty of air, had a friend back here in PA have=20 one light up and burn part of his storage=20 building, according to the fire marshall it had=20 dried enough and went up. Good luck. ---------------------- hist_text list info:=20 http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.htm l ---- End Original Message ---- Later,=20 Daniel L. "Concho" Smith _____________________________________________=20 HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT_______HRD__ http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/_________HRD__ [Outdoor Ethics] "Leave No Trace" _____________________________________________ Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com=20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C1147E.43CC93C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Read the last  part of this = carefully. =20 Under certain conditions linseed oil soaked rags (or=20 haversacks) will break down, generating enough heat to = spontaneously=20 combust.  Oops!!
Lanney Ratcliff 
----- Original Message -----
From: <SWcushing@aol.com>
To: = <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Sent:=20 Monday, July 23, 2001 10:32 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: oil = cloth

>=20 For those considering making one, I just
finished a neat little=20 7.5X7.5
oil
> cloth out of a queen size Egyptian cotton =
sheet.=20 (220 threads per inch!) >
Baker sez you need two days in the = sun to=20 dry,
and seven in the shade to
> loose the smell... >=20 Ymos,
> Magpie
 HI magpie, just did a new haversack = made of=20
linen the same way. It dryed
in  about two days in the =  sun=20 and three in the
shade, but its been going on
three weeks = now, with=20 very high humidity,and the
odor is still quite strong.
But it = is=20 quite waterproof and sure does look=20 =
purty!
________________________________

Boys,

Becare= ful=20 with this style of waterproofing until
really dry, then break it = down=20 (take the
stiffness out) with a smooth round creek rock, it =
will=20 make your cloth last twicw as long and won't
tear as easy. =  I would=20 store it where it get
plenty of air, had a friend back here in = PA have=20
one light up and burn part of his storage
building, = according to the=20 fire marshall it had
dried enough and went up.  Good=20 luck.


----------------------
hist_text list info:=20 =
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.htm
l

---- = End=20 Original Message ----







Later,
Daniel L. "Concho"=20 Smith
_____________________________________________ =
HISTORICAL=20 RESEARCH &=20 = DEVELOPMENT_______HRD__
http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/_________HRD__<= BR>
 =20   [Outdoor Ethics] "Leave No=20 = Trace"
_____________________________________________
Sign = up=20 for a free About Email account at http://About.com=20

---------------------- = hist_text=20 list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C1147E.43CC93C0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Victoria Pate Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth Date: 24 Jul 2001 20:34:06 -0500 On Mon, 23 Jul 2001 21:33:34 -0700 "Randal Bublitz" writes: > > Magpie, I'm ignorant on fine sheets and such. Is egyptian > cotton readily available? Randy, Egyptian cotton has been readily available for say, oh..... 'bout 5K years. Egyptian cotton sheets can be found at the finer department stores. You can also buy Egyptian cotton fabric. Look on the net for both. Victoria ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jim gossett Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trade gun? Date: 24 Jul 2001 21:39:23 -0500 PARTS GUN VERY WELL COULD BE.THE WOOD TO METAL FIT IS SECOND TO NONE. THANKS FOR THE HELP. MAYBE SOME ONE ELSE HAS A DIFFERENT SLANT .WE"LL SEE. buck_conner@email.com wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: jim gossett > Subject: MtMan-List: trade gun? > > I recently bought an origninal Trade Gun but it is somewhat puzzling. The gun is 58 cal smoothbore 38.5 inch barrel The flint lock is over 1.5 wide x 7" long with an 1810 date .Inside the lock on the tumbler is a number 44 . The lock also has a bridle. The ramrod pipes are very much like the 2nd model Brown Bess even the ram rod entrance pipe. All brass mountings small trihher guard like a Wilson but without the fineal. flat butt plate (brass) . The barrel has a fixed rear site and is painted black with this stamped on the barrel JPR | EXR|3. The gun is very well put together wood to metal fit etc.There is a V scratched on the inside of lock inside of the buttplate on the under side of the barrel and in the stock channel .The ramrod is metal and the frant site is like a bayonet stud . Any help would be good. Gentleman James > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Dick, > > Sounds like a parts gun, don't get excited "GJ", nothing wrong with a parts gun, I have one myself, it's a trade gun built out of left over pieces. Have seen several of these, according to what I have been told by Curly G., Charley H. and a few other collectors, they where usually assembled at the end of finishing a government contract. Like we need 4 more guns to finish the order and we're out of 42" barrels but have a few shorter barrels from another contract or the hardware is a little different but will do. > > Remember many of these companies where just assemblers of parts provided by other firms in Europe, probably the beginning of the "cottage industries" like we saw in the "hippie" days according to Hanson. > > I have a pre 1813 Sutherland, proofed, stamped w/ sitting fox, all the right marks and it has a Brown Bess style side plate ? Charley & Curly took one look and told me just what I told you. > > -- > > Take care, > Buck Conner > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ~ AMM ~ LENAPE ~ NRA ~ HRD ~ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > [Outdoor Ethics] "Leave No Trace" > "Rival the best - Surpass the rest". > ___________ Aux Aliments de Pays! _ > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > _______________________________________________ > Talk More, Pay Less with Net2Phone Direct(R), up to 1500 minutes free! > http://www.net2phone.com/cgi-bin/link.cgi?143 > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: completely off any period subject Date: 24 Jul 2001 21:28:27 -0500 In about an hour.....a little before 10:30pm Central time the space shuttle should enter the atmosphere and cross west to east toward Florida, essentially crossing right above my house here in Central Texas. If you want to see it be ready cause it don't take long to make the trip. I saw this once and it was spectacular, so get out and watch your tax dollars at work. Lanney Ratcliff ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "'bella" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: completely off any period subject Date: 24 Jul 2001 22:41:19 -0400 been there done that, lived in Fla watched up close take off, and was watching that ill fated day too... the clap of sound it makes when it hits atmosphere is awesome.. try being in Tampa as it makes it approach to Canaveral.... one of the few tax dollars I do not mind donating.... At 09:28 PM 7/24/2001 -0500, you wrote: >In about an hour.....a little before 10:30pm Central time the space shuttle >should enter the atmosphere and cross west to east toward Florida, >essentially crossing right above my house here in Central Texas. If you >want to see it be ready cause it don't take long to make the trip. I saw >this once and it was spectacular, so get out and watch your tax dollars at >work. >Lanney Ratcliff > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Daniel L. Smith" Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: trade gun? Date: 24 Jul 2001 20:57:02 -0600
---- Begin Original Message ----
From: jim gossett <gjme@negia.net>
Sent: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 21:39:23 -0500

PARTS GUN VERY WELL COULD BE.THE WOOD TO METAL
FIT IS SECOND TO NONE. THANKS FOR THE HELP. MAYBE
SOME ONE ELSE HAS =A0A DIFFERENT =A0SLANT .WE"LL SEE.

----------------------

I got a "parts gun" myself that was purchased at
the Museum of the Fur Trade years ago, they still
bring a stiff price, just like the history book
correct ones.

Please excuse the poor spelling of last posting,
on pain killers for a twisted back, to old for
shoeing mules anymore. We did a demo of life on
an Amish farm this past weekend, 1830's style, an
old genny got the best of me.








Later,
Daniel L. "Concho" Smith
_____________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT_______HRD__
http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/_________HRD__

    [Outdoor Ethics] "Leave No Trace"
_____________________________________________
Sign up for a= free About Email account at http://About.com

---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Hall Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fort Buenaventura Rondezvous Date: 24 Jul 2001 22:09:28 -0600 At 12:06 PM 07/24/2001 -0600, you wrote: >I heard a rumor yesterday that the Rondezvous over Labaor Day Weekend was cancelled at Fort Buenaventura in Ogden, Ut. Any truth to that? Does anyone know of any other Rondezvous in Utah that weekend? Don't know about the Fort B rendezvous, but the Fort Bridger rendezvous is that weekend. Allen ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language Date: 24 Jul 2001 22:06:28 -0600 Crazy Cyot barrowed me a copy of WP Clarks Indian Sign Language. It has some interesting variations from Tomkins (besides the sign for copulation). Below is one of the signs that I believe is vastly better than what Tomkins gives. I am going to give the description then see who can guess what the meaning is first. By the way I am on the digest Email so I may be slow in answering the guesses. “Hold the right hand, back out, some eight inches in front of the neck, hand partially closed, palmer surface of thumb pressing agianst the nails of the first three fingers, edge of hand pointed upward; elevate hand some inches, at same time extend and separate fingers and thumb with a snap. . . .” Another interesting note Clark claims that if he used a different sign than the one that individual usually used the Indain would adopt Clark’s sign for the rest of the conversation. He said he had to be careful not to plant signs and give the impression that there were few variations from tribe to tribe or area to area. Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: completely off any period subject Date: 25 Jul 2001 00:02:15 -0400 bella where are you located "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fort Buenaventura Rondezvous Date: 25 Jul 2001 00:29:17 EDT In a message dated 7/25/1 4:56:39 AM, allenhall@srv.net writes: <> Just spent all day down there. It isn't that it was canceled, exactly, but it just won't be. It has always been put up for bids for what person(s) or group would like to take it on. This year the bid date came and went with no bids. So - no doin's. Richard James (who put on the first Ft. Buena Ventura Rendezvous in the winter before the fort was even there and also started the Fort Bridger Rendezvous. What else do you want to know??) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Htorr@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language Date: 25 Jul 2001 00:39:12 EDT --part1_de.17e28cb7.288fa770_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en Hi! From the description, my guess would be the sign for "fire." As in=20 campfire. Tom Orr >=20 > Crazy Cyot barrowed me a copy of WP Clarks Indian Sign Language. It has > some interesting variations from Tomkins (besides the sign for > copulation). Below is one of the signs that I believe is vastly better > than what Tomkins gives. I am going to give the description then see > who can guess what the meaning is first. By the way I am on the digest > Email so I may be slow in answering the guesses. >=20 > =E2=80=9CHold the right hand, back out, some eight inches in front of the=20= neck, > hand partially closed, palmer surface of thumb pressing agianst the > nails of the first three fingers, edge of hand pointed upward; elevate > hand some inches, at same time extend and separate fingers and thumb > with a snap. . . .=E2=80=9D >=20 > Another interesting note Clark claims that if he used a different sign > than the one that individual usually used the Indain would adopt Clark=E2= =80=99s > sign for the rest of the conversation. He said he had to be careful not > to plant signs and give the impression that there were few variations > from tribe to tribe or area to area. >=20 > Wynn Ormond >=20 >=20 >=20 --part1_de.17e28cb7.288fa770_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en
Hi!

     From the description, my gues= s would be the sign for "fire."  As in=20
campfire.

     Tom Orr



Crazy Cyot barrowed me a copy of WP Clarks Indian Sign Language.  I= t has
some interesting variations from Tomkins (besides the sign for
copulation).  Below is one of the signs that I believe is vastly be= tter
than what Tomkins gives.  I am going to give the description then s= ee
who can guess what the meaning is first.  By the way I am on the di= gest
Email so I may be slow in answering the guesses.

=E2=80=9CHold the right hand, back out, some eight inches in front of th= e neck,
hand partially closed, palmer surface of thumb pressing agianst the
nails of the first three fingers, edge of hand pointed upward; elevate
hand some inches, at same time extend and separate fingers and thumb
with a snap. . . .=E2=80=9D

Another interesting note Clark claims that if he used a different sign
than the one that individual usually used the Indain would adopt Clark= =E2=80=99s
sign for the rest of the conversation.  He said he had to be carefu= l not
to plant signs and give the impression that there were few variations
from tribe to tribe or area to area.

Wynn Ormond


--part1_de.17e28cb7.288fa770_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fort Buenaventura Rondezvous Date: 24 Jul 2001 22:57:39 -0600 > Richard James > (who put on the first Ft. Buena Ventura Rendezvous in the winter before the > fort was even there and also started the Fort Bridger Rendezvous. What else > do you want to know??) Hey old timer, Have you ever been to Montana. BTW, what was the date of the 1st Fort Bridger Rendezvous? Always enjoy your thoughtful posts. Cheers, Walt ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fort Bridger Date: 25 Jul 2001 01:43:50 EDT --part1_3a.18373ea3.288fb696_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I went to the second Fort Bridger Rondezvous in 1974 Roadkill --part1_3a.18373ea3.288fb696_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I went to the second Fort Bridger Rondezvous in 1974
Roadkill --part1_3a.18373ea3.288fb696_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth Date: 25 Jul 2001 08:30:46 EDT --part1_108.30ef0ce.289015f6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/24/01 9:15:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dlsmith@about.com writes: > had a friend back here in PA have > You also need to watch them around camp fires. We have a club member that was on a trek with an oil cloth diamond shelter he had made. Had all his kit in the shelter and was cooking breakfast when the wind took a little spark up onto the oil cloth. Burned so fast that it barely damaged the items he had in the shelter but his smoothbore now has a two tone stock as the fire darkened the wood on the side facing up. So be careful that you keep the fires away from oil cloth and down wind. Y.M.O.S. C.T. Oakes --part1_108.30ef0ce.289015f6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/24/01 9:15:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
dlsmith@about.com writes:


had a friend back here in PA have
one light up and burn


You also need to watch them around camp fires.  We have a club member that
was on a trek with an oil cloth diamond shelter he had made.  Had all his kit
in the shelter and was cooking breakfast when the wind took a little spark up
onto the oil cloth.  Burned so fast that it barely damaged the items he had
in the shelter but his smoothbore now has a two tone stock as the fire
darkened the wood on the side facing up.  So be careful that you keep the
fires away from oil cloth and down wind.

Y.M.O.S.

C.T. Oakes --part1_108.30ef0ce.289015f6_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fort Buenaventura Rondezvous Date: 25 Jul 2001 07:23:09 -0700 > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3078890590_29510_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Scott, Yes it has been canceled. Fort Bridger Rendezvous is happening at the same time. Ole ---------- I heard a rumor yesterday that the Rondezvous over Labaor Day Weekend was cancelled at Fort Buenaventura in Ogden, Ut. Any truth to that? Does anyone know of any other Rondezvous in Utah that weekend? --MS_Mac_OE_3078890590_29510_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: MtMan-List: Fort Buenaventura Rondezvous Scott,
Yes it has been canceled. Fort Bridger Rendezvous is happening at the same = time.
Ole
----------


I heard a rumor yesterday that the Rondezvous ov= er Labaor Day Weekend was cancelled at Fort Buenaventura in Ogden, Ut.  = ;Any truth to that?  Does anyone know of any other Rondezvous in Utah t= hat weekend?

--MS_Mac_OE_3078890590_29510_MIME_Part-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth Date: 25 Jul 2001 13:05:11 EDT --part1_c9.12fe5609.28905647_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/25/01 5:32:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time, CTOAKES@aol.com writes: > Burned so fast that it barely damaged the items he had > in the shelter but his smoothbore now has a two tone stock as the fire > darkened the wood on the side facing up. So be careful that you keep the > fires away from oil cloth and down wind. > > Y.M.O.S. > Geeezes..... You guys are taking the fun right outta the oil cloth work! I'm in LA for a couple days (watching my girl play basketball), so I'll check on the oil cloth when I get back. Hopefully, my house won't be a big charcoal briquette.... Ymos, Magpie --part1_c9.12fe5609.28905647_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/25/01 5:32:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time, CTOAKES@aol.com
writes:


Burned so fast that it barely damaged the items he had
in the shelter but his smoothbore now has a two tone stock as the fire
darkened the wood on the side facing up.  So be careful that you keep the
fires away from oil cloth and down wind.

Y.M.O.S.


Geeezes..... You guys are taking the fun right outta the oil cloth work! I'm
in LA for a couple days (watching my girl play basketball), so I'll check on
the oil cloth when I get back. Hopefully, my house won't be a big charcoal
briquette....<G>

Ymos,
Magpie --part1_c9.12fe5609.28905647_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth Date: 25 Jul 2001 10:09:31 -0700 Chris, I've made a couple "oil cloths" using linseed, bee's wax and burnt umber oil paint for lack of the iron oxide/yellow oxide ingredients and while they both worked I found it not to be worth anything more than the experiment in making. They smell, are heavier than plain cloth by quit a bit and tend to rip easily. I've seen 'oil cloths made by others, E. Horn for one, that were more properly called "Russia sheeting" that seemed to work well and the owners seemed pleased with them. Pretty much the same process that Baker came up with and shows in his video on that subject. But again, I found them to be much too heavy for my purposes. What I have got to (weight being the prime consideration) is treating my "canvas" shelters with the method spelled out by George Washington Sears in his book on camping, published in the late 1800's. I like the lightest, strongest material that will still do the job and not fall apart and that is much thinner than true canvas duck. Usually something like pocket drill- lighter than canvas but much stronger than muslin. It entails soaking the material in a solution of lime and alum for a full day then washing out with rain water and allowing it to dry. I suspect that all it does is swell up the fibers and tighten up the fabric such that when it does get wet (and it will all the way through) the rain tends to run off rather than drip through. The only down side is that it will permit moisture to come up through it if used as a ground cloth and will be soaked if you break camp to move right after a rain thus making it heavy while still saturated with water. Still and all, a shelter is more for the unexpected than anything so if it sheds water and gets heavy doing it, I'll live with that to have it dry and light going in. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fort Bridger Date: 25 Jul 2001 14:43:28 EDT In a message dated 7/25/1 6:44:41 AM, MarkLoader@aol.com writes: <> The second year there were 18 tipis (only 13 in'73). Was yours one of them?? RJames ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth Date: 25 Jul 2001 15:01:29 EDT > I've seen 'oil cloths made by others, E. Horn for one, that were more > properly called "Russia sheeting" that seemed to work well and the owners > seemed pleased with them. Capt, You had a chance to see my "real" oilcloth at the RMNR and also that the oil in it was non-drying, non-hardening, and tasteless. I still don't know what it is but have often wondered if something is being missed. All the old books say oilcloth is made using linseed oil. Everyone seems to use boiled linseed oil. Perhaps it is raw linseed which was used. This little tidbit still baffles me. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth Date: 25 Jul 2001 14:21:32 -0500 I have mentioned it before, I will mention it again. If you use modern boiled linseed oil DO NOT EXPECT A PERIOD RESULT!!! It= =20 is not what boiled linseed oil once was. Modern processing has changed t= he=20 properties of the finished product. Additional information is available in the archives. John... P.S. I have also mentioned that the quality of the cloth is what is most= =20 important. Treated cloth is best used for packing goods. At 03:01 PM 7/25/01 -0400, you wrote: > > I've seen 'oil cloths made by others, E. Horn for one, that were more > > properly called "Russia sheeting" that seemed to work well and the o= wners > > seemed pleased with them. > >Capt, >You had a chance to see my "real" oilcloth at the RMNR and also that the= oil >in it was non-drying, non-hardening, and tasteless. I still don't know = what >it is but have often wondered if something is being missed. All the old >books say oilcloth is made using linseed oil. Everyone seems to use boi= led >linseed oil. Perhaps it is raw linseed which was used. This little tid= bit >still baffles me. > >Dave Kanger > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fort Buenaventura Rondezvous Date: 25 Jul 2001 16:31:42 EDT In a message dated 7/24/1 7:16:10 PM, massage@networld.com writes: << cancelled at Fort Buenaventura in Ogden, Ut. Any truth to that? Does anyone know of any other Rondezvous in Utah that weekend?>> Fort Bridger USED to be in Utah Territory, if that helps. RJames ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "todd glover" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language Date: 26 Jul 2001 06:06:18 +0800 Wynn, SOunds like the sign for fire. -----Original Message----- > Crazy Cyot barrowed me a copy of WP Clarks Indian Sign Language. It has > some interesting variations from Tomkins (besides the sign for > copulation). Below is one of the signs that I believe is vastly better > than what Tomkins gives. I am going to give the description then see > who can guess what the meaning is first. By the way I am on the digest > Email so I may be slow in answering the guesses. > > “Hold the right hand, back out, some eight inches in front of the neck, > hand partially closed, palmer surface of thumb pressing agianst the > nails of the first three fingers, edge of hand pointed upward; elevate > hand some inches, at same time extend and separate fingers and thumb > with a snap. . . .” > > Another interesting note Clark claims that if he used a different sign > than the one that individual usually used the Indain would adopt Clark’s > sign for the rest of the conversation. He said he had to be careful not > to plant signs and give the impression that there were few variations > from tribe to tribe or area to area. > > Wynn Ormond > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > -- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth Date: 25 Jul 2001 15:37:44 -0700 TOF, Still baffles me too. I did remember that your shelter used real "oil cloth" as it were. As I suggested, it is not much different than what is being sold here-abouts as oil cloth but what we see is died dark brown and used for Australian "dusters" etc. whereas yours appeared to have been undyed-oiled-cloth of the same weight. My bedroll is made of darkly died "oil" cloth very similar to your shelter cloth. Some past speculation and references to snippets of side comments made by various early explorers/expeditions, suggests that they may have used whale oil and other similar "thin" oils. Your suggestion that the list may have included unboiled or raw linseed oil could also be correct. Baffling. Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 12:01 PM > > I've seen 'oil cloths made by others, E. Horn for one, that were more > > properly called "Russia sheeting" that seemed to work well and the owners > > seemed pleased with them. > > Capt, > You had a chance to see my "real" oilcloth at the RMNR and also that the oil > in it was non-drying, non-hardening, and tasteless. I still don't know what > it is but have often wondered if something is being missed. All the old > books say oilcloth is made using linseed oil. Everyone seems to use boiled > linseed oil. Perhaps it is raw linseed which was used. This little tidbit > still baffles me. > > Dave Kanger > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth Date: 25 Jul 2001 17:14:28 -0700 (PDT) --- rtlahti wrote: > TOF, > > Still baffles me too. I did remember that your > shelter used real "oil cloth" > as it were. As I suggested, it is not much different > than what is being sold > here-abouts as oil cloth but what we see is died > dark brown and used for > Australian "dusters" etc. whereas yours appeared to > have been > undyed-oiled-cloth of the same weight. My bedroll is This makes sense, as boiled linseed would necessarily be stickier and gummier than linseed oil. If you put cloth in a more viscous substance that did not dry and form a crust, it would resemble the oilcloth used in raincoats and so on. This would seem like a better way to go for me. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fort Bridger Date: 25 Jul 2001 20:18:31 EDT --part1_69.186fb617.2890bbd7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was a real pilgrim then. Only had a gun and a lot of desire to be at a rendezvous. My wife, 4 month old son and I camped across the street in a pup tent. Oh how I wanted to be a mountain man. Now I are one. But realize how much more there is to know. The Mountain got its own way. Mark 'Roadkill" Loader --part1_69.186fb617.2890bbd7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was a real pilgrim then. Only had a gun and a lot of desire to be at a
rendezvous. My wife, 4 month old son and I camped across the street in a pup
tent. Oh how I wanted to be a mountain man. Now I are one. But realize how
much more there is to know. The Mountain got its own way.
Mark 'Roadkill" Loader --part1_69.186fb617.2890bbd7_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language Date: 25 Jul 2001 20:24:57 EDT --part1_95.de41914.2890bd59_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think it is the sign for shoot or fire a gun. For fire the back of the hand would be down held lower and the fingers would snap upward. Mark "Roadkill" Loader --part1_95.de41914.2890bd59_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think it is the sign for shoot or fire a gun. For fire the back of the hand
would be down held lower and the fingers would snap upward.
Mark "Roadkill" Loader --part1_95.de41914.2890bd59_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TerryTwoBear@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language Date: 25 Jul 2001 20:53:43 EDT whocares we use thompkins book and most dont use it. two bear ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language Date: 25 Jul 2001 20:17:11 -0700 "Hold the right hand, back out, some eight inches in front of the neck, hand partially closed, palmer surface of thumb pressing agianst the nails of the first three fingers, edge of hand pointed upward; elevate hand some inches, at same time extend and separate fingers and thumb with a snap. . . ." Wynn, I'm not sure. The sign you describe is not right for 'fire', and it's not exactly right for talk either. You may have to cave in and tell us. Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ssturtle1199@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language Date: 25 Jul 2001 21:15:16 EDT --part1_7a.18312968.2890c924_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Being somewhat of a cheater. (I have a copy of Clark's book) It is the sign for GUN!! --part1_7a.18312968.2890c924_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Being somewhat of a cheater.  (I have a copy of Clark's book) It is the sign
for GUN!! --part1_7a.18312968.2890c924_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth Date: 25 Jul 2001 21:19:26 EDT --part1_f3.d45ec08.2890ca1e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John You mention the archives. Is there a way to find information in them without looking thru every post. Roadkill --part1_f3.d45ec08.2890ca1e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John
You mention the archives. Is there a way to find information in them without
looking thru every post.
Roadkill --part1_f3.d45ec08.2890ca1e_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language Date: 25 Jul 2001 21:06:45 -0700 Being somewhat of a cheater. (I have a copy of Clark's book) It is the sign for GUN!! Damn Turtle ! I do believe you're right. There are several varitions of that sign. Most use that sign along with a motion like you were aiming a gun. Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Clay J. Landry" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Alfred Miller's Paintings Date: 24 Jul 2001 21:58:20 -0600 The best reference for the location of Miller's art work is a book published by the Amon Carter Museum of Western Art in Fort Worth Texas. Titled "Alfred Jacob Miller: Artist on the Oregon Trail" edited by Ron Tyler-this book has an inventory of all Miller art work, the places that it has been displayed and the current known location of each piece. In addition the Walters Gallery, Baltimore, Gilcrease in Tulsa, the Joshlyn Art Museum in Omaha Neb also a large collection. Clay Landry Moorhead MT ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, July 23, 2001 7:31 AM > I think the largest collection is at the Walters Gallery in Baltimore. They > have 200 water colors that Walters commissioned, as well as many oils. They > only show a few at a time, but they used to have a small room with mostly > his stuff. If you are a serious researcher, I think you can make > arrangements to see the entire collection. > > I went there last month, and was very disappointed that they are still > remodeling the gallery, and only one display of some oriental art was on > view. I went there more than six months ago, and they were remodeling then > also. Maybe the art connoisseurs are more interested in the building than > the art. > > There are more of Miller's paintings at the Gilcrease? museum in Tulsa, > though I have never seen them. > > I think that in Bernard deVoto's "Across the Wide Missouri" he listed the > major repositories of Miller's work in the back of the book. That is how I > found out about the Walters Gallery. > > I don't have them bookmarked, but I think there are at least 10 of his > paintings on the internet. > > Glenn Darilek > Iron Burner > > > SWcushing@aol.com wrote: > > > Hallo the List, > > > > Does anyone know where the original sketches done by Alfred Miller are > > located? I think someone once said they were in France somewhere, and I've > > got a kid over there that would take some pictures of them, if she knew > where > > to go.... > > > > Ymos, > > Magpie > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language Date: 25 Jul 2001 21:05:47 -0700 If I remember my Thompkins, it is very similar to "shoots" as "shoots a gun". "Shoots-the-Prairie" Larry Huber ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 9:06 PM > Being somewhat of a cheater. (I have a copy of Clark's book) It is the sign > for GUN!! > > Damn Turtle ! I do believe you're right. There are several varitions of > that sign. Most use that sign along with a motion like you were aiming a > gun. > Pendleton > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: nm2251us@yahoo.com Subject: Receive $1,000 COMMISSION on a $0 down SALE !! 7251148 Date: 25 Jul 2001 23:48:16 -0500 -------------------------------------------------= ------------------
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since it includes a remove mechanism.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "todd glover" Subject: MtMan-List: A.J. MillerBook Date: 26 Jul 2001 21:41:08 +0800 Gentlemen, Bidding Update. So far, Hardtack is the high bidder for the "West of Alfred Jacob Miller." His generous bid is $100.00. Anyone interested has until Saturday at 8:00 p.m. to bid. Thanks for the bids! "Teton" Todd Glover -- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth Date: 26 Jul 2001 18:01:17 -0500 Roadkill, Up through late '98 the archive can be sorted by thread which makes it pretty fast to scan through for relevant information. It sometimes can be helpful and sometimes the subject line is missing or has no relationship to the discussion. I have been surprised at the postings that turn up in Google searches and a cleverly worded search string or two may help pin point what you want. Other than that I can't offer a lot of help. John... At 09:19 PM 7/25/01 -0400, you wrote: >John >You mention the archives. Is there a way to find information in them without >looking thru every post. >Roadkill Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth Date: 26 Jul 2001 20:38:31 EDT John, You have some valuable stuff in the archives concerning period finishes and compounds, however I don't believe it relates directly to the topic being discussed. These oilcloth tarps are all the present rage. At some point in time, some reenactor looked up the definition of oilcloth and discovered it was made from cloth saturated with linseed. I don't believe it was made this way in days of yore. Oilcloth was a common material, sold in general and dry goods stores. It was used for a variety of purposes, the most common being tablecloths, shelf liners, and for wrapping food. I recall seeing it in stores when I was a kid. It was on large rolls like butcher paper back in one corner of the counter. There was always a puddle of oil under it. What we are trying to discern is not how boiled linseed differs today from before. We are trying to gain an insight into what "was" actually used. I'm sure that it is still made in various parts of the world using the old formula. Mine came off a old roll that a trader had bought when an old warehouse was sold out. He said it was the last remaining roll he could locate. The oil in mine is odorless, tasteless, and colorless. I haven't done a burn test on it, but from its characteristics it seems to have a very high flash point. It has never dried after about 5 years. Dave Kanger ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buck Conner Date: 26 Jul 2001 21:17:35 -0600 Hey Buck, Did you see the latest in the Ice Man Otzi's saga? Did you ever get the list started you mentioned last time around? Walt ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth Date: 27 Jul 2001 01:17:34 EDT In a message dated 7/23/01 9:26:12 PM, rjbublitz@earthlink.net writes: << Is egyptian cotton readily available? I did a search about a month ago and came up empty handed. I've heard of this material, and it's suitability for oilcloth, but I couldn't fing it >> Hallo Hardtack, I'm back....and what's it been, about 3 1/2 days drying on the oil cloth, and it's dry to the touch. Still stinks a bit, but looks pretty good. I've got a few touch ups to do on the off side, and then I'll let it dry a week or so before I drench it with a garden hose, to see how water proof it really is..... The Egyptian cotton I got at Fred Myers, and is nothing more than a queen size sheet. I squared it up, and used the left over material to reinforce the corners where I added loops. So far, I'm pleased with what I've got.... a light weight, strong, and hopefully water proof fly.... I will run a bunch of tests on it, including a flash/fire test on a sample....later. I do have a question for John ...(next post) Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth Date: 27 Jul 2001 01:24:52 EDT In a message dated 7/25/01 12:22:40 PM, kramer@kramerize.com writes: << If you use modern boiled linseed oil DO NOT EXPECT A PERIOD RESULT!!! It is not what boiled linseed oil once was. Modern processing has changed the properties of the finished product. >> John.... I can't find it in the archives brother, so if you would, please tell me the difference between boiled linseed oil then, and boiled linseed oil now.... And, how can I make a "period" oil cloth... It was my understanding Mark Baker was doing it (making oil cloth) about as close as it can be done. Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth Date: 27 Jul 2001 00:58:22 -0500 Dave, The difference is in using petroleum products as driers in the oil rather than heat and litharge as was done. I've commented on it so many times I thought it should be common knowledge by now. Any linseed treated material will not be colorless, tasteless or odorless boiled or raw. I suspect mineral oil was used on any that may be. I have one of the tentmaker made commercial oil cloth tarps and frankly don't have a clue what they use, I don't think I want to know, it is not odorless. Reproofing cream, like that made by Australian Outback for treating their oilskin garments, is: "a special blend of micro & technical waxes and polymers." I suspect it is similar to the materials used in treating the commercial oil cloth tarps sold by tent makers. It doesn't seem as strong an aroma. None of the current commercial materials smell like old stuff to me and I smell mostly old stuff each and every day. Some are very reminiscent of things I used to write industrial safety reports about, a quarter century ago. The treated garments all include significant quantities of wax in their formulae. Linseed was used early on for various types of oil cloth; it was not a singular product. Floor covers were commonly made of a linseed oil treated cloth as was real linoleum. Some less drying cloth was made for wrapping and protecting things like tools, the rolls you remember leaking oil and never drying. There are other period receipts for waterproofing cloth that use no oil whatsoever. Best use in the mountains would be to protect the food supply from the elements. A dry pack to hang outside the reach of Ol' Ephraim. Traditionally a tarpaulin is cloth coated with tar, wax or paint. Oil cloth though stated as oil and pigment treated, is at least as often more a painted cloth. Much of the oilcloth sold at the hardware store was used for shelf paper and table cloths; it had a finished surface. If the surface of these didn't harden sufficiently the housewife couldn't have used it, it would have collected too much dirt and grease too quickly and been nearly impossible to clean. One linseed commentary I found in the archives is linked below: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/hist_text-arch4/msg01381.html When one of the variations of commercial oil cloth were made, varying quantities of driers were added to effect the oxidizing of the oil. Japan drier was another liquid form of lead used extensively, red lead was added, not so much for color but again to effect the oil. White lead was used similarly. When you add dirt/pigment (ochre, umber, sienna) you do not have the same thing as adding many pounds of lead to a boiled with heat & lead oil that you've given a heavy shot of Japan Drier. Even those were still sticky under a hot sun. Think about how dangerous these things were to just handle on a daily basis. Remember buttering your bread on one? I do. Fortunately most were shellacked to protect us. I once again suggest buying a quality tight woven canvas or cloth in cotton, linen or hemp there is no significant advantage to having oil treated canvas unless you are packaging or sheltering goods. Condensation is a problem I've encountered too often with oil cloth. Put the weight savings into a little bigger piece of cloth or a little heavier weight of material if you want more comfort or durability. Small pieces of oilcloth are useful for packaging food. I would never use any of the commercial oil cloth for said purpose. I would choose an appropriate weight and weave of a period material best suited to the task. For oil I would use only pure organic cold pressed flax oil from the health food store on well washed material. This could be used for packing things like salt pork and perhaps jerky, iron tools, whatever must stay dry. Other cloth can be coated with molten beeswax, or a combination of the two, as an outer shell bag or pack over a dry inner bag or bags of something you don't want wet like pinole. A journal properly wrapped in waxed cloth can survive a dunking. Powder and socks can be kept dry. Any oil or wax treated cloth (unless treated with retardant and probably then still) will burn hotter and more brightly than plain cloth. Differing materials have differing flash points; they all have one, it's the nature of oil & wax; the higher the flash point the hotter it burns; this may not be good around powder horns. I'm working on a period fire retardant receipt I found for cloth. If it works I might make some extra if there was enough interest. I'll let folks know if I get it worked out. There are many old receipts for jacking cloth as well as leather, any paint that builds on the surface will add significant weight. Paint that is too thick or which fully dries will crack with use. Asphaltum varnish can be used to jack canvas as is sometimes still seen on old trunks. I don't think mountain men had much use or need for it. The suggestion was being made that folks use boiled linseed oil that they can buy at the store, then they were wondering why it didn't work very well, it doesn't work very well because it is not the same thing. My response does and did relate closely to the topic at hand. As to what did they use back then? I don't think it was often commercial oil cloth; if they needed a water resistant wrapper they probably just used whatever grease they happened to have handy; like perhaps rendered beaver tail on the most appropriate scrap of leather or cloth they had available. There are few listings or mentions of oil cloth or oilcloth (doing a fast search on Dean's web site) and most of the mentions made were from John Work. Most dealt with protecting packs and bales of fur. John... At 08:38 PM 7/26/01 -0400, you wrote: >John, >You have some valuable stuff in the archives concerning period finishes and >compounds, however I don't believe it relates directly to the topic being >discussed. > >These oilcloth tarps are all the present rage. At some point in time, some >reenactor looked up the definition of oilcloth and discovered it was made >from cloth saturated with linseed. I don't believe it was made this way in >days of yore. > >Oilcloth was a common material, sold in general and dry goods stores. It was >used for a variety of purposes, the most common being tablecloths, shelf >liners, and for wrapping food. I recall seeing it in stores when I was a >kid. It was on large rolls like butcher paper back in one corner of the >counter. There was always a puddle of oil under it. > >What we are trying to discern is not how boiled linseed differs today from >before. We are trying to gain an insight into what "was" actually used. I'm >sure that it is still made in various parts of the world using the old >formula. Mine came off a old roll that a trader had bought when an old >warehouse was sold out. He said it was the last remaining roll he could >locate. > >The oil in mine is odorless, tasteless, and colorless. I haven't done a burn >test on it, but from its characteristics it seems to have a very high flash >point. It has never dried after about 5 years. > >Dave Kanger > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth Date: 27 Jul 2001 02:33:05 EDT In a message dated 7/26/01 11:02:58 PM, kramer@kramerize.com writes: << I've commented on it so many times I thought it should be common knowledge by now. >> John.... Your note to Dave pretty much answered my questions.... You know your stuff...Thanks, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Funk" Subject: MtMan-List: Oil cloth Date: 27 Jul 2001 08:51:09 -0700 "The Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly" Vol. 24 No. 1 "Oil cloth is painted canvas......" "In making oil cloth, the linen cloth piece..(often "raven's duck"...or "Russia sheeting")..(was) coated with sizing on both sides and rubbed smooth with a pumice block while still wet." "When this was dry, two coats of paint were applied to each side. The first coat was made as thick as molasses using linseed oil and paint pigment and very little turpentine. It was daubed on in very thick splashes with a stout, thick brush and smoothed out carefully with a long, narrow tapering trowel. When the thick coat was finally dry, a more fluid second coat was laid on with a brush." (reference, The Textile Manufactures of Great Britain, London 1845. "On the western prairies, the use of waterproof cloths was not universal, but they no doubt had some use." John Funk ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language Date: 27 Jul 2001 10:44:13 -0600 >Hi! > From the description, my guess would be the sign for "fire." As in=20 >campfire. > Tom Orr Tom is an astute man. It is a fire of sorts that is represented but fire is not the answer. Wynn > =E2=80=9CHold the right hand, back out, some eight inches in front of the=20= neck, > hand partially closed, palmer surface of thumb pressing agianst the > nails of the first three fingers, edge of hand pointed upward; elevate > hand some inches, at same time extend and separate fingers and thumb > with a snap. . . .=E2=80=9D >=20 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Daniel L. Smith" Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Buck's Iceman page Date: 27 Jul 2001 11:44:56 -0600
Walt,

Buck is in MN training new telephone engineers
and doesn't have access to the list right now.

He said to tell you he been so busy with work he
hasn't had time to get back into the comparsions
for that site between the - iceman - native
americans - mountainmen.

He was looking at moving to UT or ID, but because
of questions not answered by his company, he has
turned them down and will be in CO for a few more
years, at least that was the last I heard from
his wife.

Hope that helps.








Later,
Daniel L. "Concho" Smith
_____________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT_______HRD__
http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/_________HRD__

     [Outdoor Ethics] "Leave No Sign"
_____________________________________________
Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com

---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Buck's Iceman page Date: 27 Jul 2001 11:53:56 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C11692.D0DD87E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Dan, Let Buck know that the Ice Man Otzi was killed by an arrow. He was shot = high in the left shoulder. Cutting nerves, blood vessels and breaking = the shoulder blade. He lived long enough to gain his last resting spot. Cheers, Walt ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C11692.D0DD87E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Dan,
 
Let Buck know that the Ice Man Otzi was = killed by=20 an arrow.  He was shot high in the left shoulder.  Cutting = nerves,=20 blood vessels and breaking the shoulder blade.  He lived long = enough to=20 gain his last resting spot.
 
Cheers, Walt
 
------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C11692.D0DD87E0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Glenn Darilek" Subject: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil Date: 27 Jul 2001 14:33:50 -0500 Also in the archives is a warning about the spontaneous combustion of cloth coated with linseed oil. Some of us remember the old fire safety warning of not storing oily rags. That was talking about linseed oil, because linseed oil was used a lot for thinning paint, clean up, etc. Under some conditions, linseed oil rags can spontaneously combust (catch fire by itself). Also, don't feel too lax about fires if your canvass, etc. has no oil coating. I tested canvass, canvass with Thompson's waterseal, and canvass coated with paraffin. They ALL burn like the blazes. Some inadvertent field testing of my plain canvass tent verified those findings! Glenn Darilek Iron Burner >Any oil or wax treated cloth (unless treated with retardant and probably >then still) will burn hotter and more brightly than plain cloth. Differing >materials have differing flash points; they all have one, it's the nature >of oil & wax; the higher the flash point the hotter it burns; this may not >be good around powder horns. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Linseed Oil Date: 27 Jul 2001 15:51:57 EDT In a message dated 7/27/01 12:33:27 PM Pacific Daylight Time, glenn@leaklocationservices.com writes: << I tested canvass, canvass with Thompson's waterseal, and canvass coated with paraffin. They ALL burn like the blazes. A common practice to water proof the Circus tents of 75 - 100 years ago was to dissolve paraffin in kerosene or gasoline and leave the tent up until the dissolving agent evaporated / dried. Still quite hazardous when the lighting of the day was primarily oil burning lamps! < Some inadvertent field testing of my plain canvass tent verified those findings! >> Can confirm the rapidity of the burning of a tent. How long did yours take? Mine took all of 10 minutes to reduce it to char cloth even with attempts to put it out. Supposedly had been treated with "fire retardant" -- yea, right! NM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Daniel L. Smith" Subject: MtMan-List: Goose Baywork Shops catalog on line. Date: 27 Jul 2001 16:31:10 -0600
Hey the camp,

Talked to our old friend and supplier Peter
Goebel, the move to the new home was very hard on
him and family taking longer than originally
planned, but he is now settled.

He said with the rising costs of printing they
decided to put their catalog on line showing
Debra's fine art work and text details of each
item.

Of course they will make about anything anyone
needs on a custom order as before, just not
carried as usual inventory.

They hope to have a retail store setup on the
property by next year, around late spring - early
summer, for those in the area.

http://www.goosebayworkshops.com

Just passing on a site that everyone will enjoy,
thanks.







Later,
Daniel L. "Concho" Smith
_____________________________________________
HISTORICAL RESEARCH & DEVELOPMENT_______HRD__
http://pages.about.com/dlsmith/_________HRD__

     [Outdoor Ethics] "Leave No Sign"
_____________________________________________
Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com

---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language Date: 28 Jul 2001 10:31:52 -0600 >I think it is the sign for shoot or fire a gun. For fire the back of the hand >would be down held lower and the fingers would snap upward. >Mark "Roadkill" Loader Mark gets the grand prize (glory and recognition no cash prizes sorry) for first to guess correctly. I at least found the sign that emphasizes the flash of a flinter a worthwhile variation that would likely be more period correct than Tomkins version. It was not surprising that you figured it out quickly but two bears post did surprise me. >whocares we use thompkins book and most dont use it. two bear Languages are dynamic and whoever “we” are should open their minds a little. At Nationals Yaro told me that he learned to use his thumb to point to people with not the index finger. Kind of a fun variation to me. He also used a sign that the brothers of the Poison River Party understand perfectly well that Tomkin’s watered down boy scout version would never touch. Don’t get me wrong Tomkin’s book is great and I appreciate him leaving us this valuable resource, but two bear if you really have an interest in sign perhaps you would “care”. One of the things that I wish that list members would spend more time on is the wilderness skills. We go on for days about “period correct” and material culture (clothing, shovels, leather, etc), but how much do we talk about Aux Aliments de Pays, how to tell a coyote track from a domestic dog, or how to keep a canoe upright when things go wrong. I would be glad to hear of variations in sign, and you don’t have to use Webster book English ifn you don’t want to. Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language Date: 28 Jul 2001 15:47:04 -0400 Still a novice at sign but have both books and, while I like the simple diagrams that Tompkins provides, I really appreciate the depth of detail in Clark and was glad to have learned of it. For example, nearly 7 pages are devoted to "buffalo" alone. I've tabbed it and it travels with me. Both have their purpose but Clark is hard to put down. I would welcome learning of any other good sign books for comparison. Here's some dialog fodder: Neither Tompkins nor Clark provide reference to sign for several essentials such as "bullet", or "lead", or "mold". (Clark provides sign for "flint" while Tompkins does not). Any good signers out there wish to comment on these terms? Tom Gretchen Ormond wrote: > > >I think it is the sign for shoot or fire a gun. For fire the back of > the hand > >would be down held lower and the fingers would snap upward. > >Mark "Roadkill" Loader > > Mark gets the grand prize (glory and recognition no cash prizes sorry) > for first to guess correctly. I at least found the sign that emphasizes > the flash of a flinter a worthwhile variation that would likely be more > period correct than Tomkins version. It was not surprising that you > figured it out quickly but two bears post did surprise me. > > >whocares we use thompkins book and most dont use it. > two bear > > Languages are dynamic and whoever “we” are should open their minds a > little. At Nationals Yaro told me that he learned to use his thumb to > point to people with not the index finger. Kind of a fun variation to > me. He also used a sign that the brothers of the Poison River Party > understand perfectly well that Tomkin’s watered down boy scout version > would never touch. Don’t get me wrong Tomkin’s book is great and I > appreciate him leaving us this valuable resource, but two bear if you > really have an interest in sign perhaps you would “care”. > > One of the things that I wish that list members would spend more time on > is the wilderness skills. We go on for days about “period correct” and > material culture (clothing, shovels, leather, etc), but how much do we > talk about Aux Aliments de Pays, how to tell a coyote track from a > domestic dog, or how to keep a canoe upright when things go wrong. I > would be glad to hear of variations in sign, and you don’t have to use > Webster book English ifn you don’t want to. > > Wynn Ormond > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language Date: 28 Jul 2001 16:20:38 -0400 Okay... So what do we do?? D ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2001 3:47 PM > Still a novice at sign but have both books and, while I like the > simple diagrams that Tompkins provides, I really appreciate the > depth of detail in Clark and was glad to have learned of it. For > example, nearly 7 pages are devoted to "buffalo" alone. I've > tabbed it and it travels with me. Both have their purpose but Clark > is hard to put down. I would welcome learning of any other good sign > books for comparison. > > Here's some dialog fodder: > > Neither Tompkins nor Clark provide reference to sign for several > essentials > such as "bullet", or "lead", or "mold". (Clark provides sign for > "flint" > while Tompkins does not). Any good signers out there wish to comment on > these terms? > > Tom > > > > Gretchen Ormond wrote: > > > > >I think it is the sign for shoot or fire a gun. For fire the back of > > the hand > > >would be down held lower and the fingers would snap upward. > > >Mark "Roadkill" Loader > > > > Mark gets the grand prize (glory and recognition no cash prizes sorry) > > for first to guess correctly. I at least found the sign that emphasizes > > the flash of a flinter a worthwhile variation that would likely be more > > period correct than Tomkins version. It was not surprising that you > > figured it out quickly but two bears post did surprise me. > > > > >whocares we use thompkins book and most dont use it. > > two bear > > > > Languages are dynamic and whoever "we" are should open their minds a > > little. At Nationals Yaro told me that he learned to use his thumb to > > point to people with not the index finger. Kind of a fun variation to > > me. He also used a sign that the brothers of the Poison River Party > > understand perfectly well that Tomkin's watered down boy scout version > > would never touch. Don't get me wrong Tomkin's book is great and I > > appreciate him leaving us this valuable resource, but two bear if you > > really have an interest in sign perhaps you would "care". > > > > One of the things that I wish that list members would spend more time on > > is the wilderness skills. We go on for days about "period correct" and > > material culture (clothing, shovels, leather, etc), but how much do we > > talk about Aux Aliments de Pays, how to tell a coyote track from a > > domestic dog, or how to keep a canoe upright when things go wrong. I > > would be glad to hear of variations in sign, and you don't have to use > > Webster book English ifn you don't want to. > > > > Wynn Ormond > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover Subject: MtMan-List: The West of Alfred Jacob Miller Date: 28 Jul 2001 14:33:29 -0600 Hello all, The auction I am running for the book "The West of Alfred Jacob Miller" is closing tonight at 8:00. So far Randy Bublitz has the high bid of $100.00. That easily covers my cost for the book and the land fund will get another nice donation. Any last bids? "Teton" Todd D. Glover http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language Date: 28 Jul 2001 16:37:30 -0400 Off the top of my head, I'm thinking we improvise. Lead: hot + liquid (or soft) + metal Bullet: hot + liquid + metal + small + round + shoot Mold: hot + liquid + metal + small + round + shoot + pour Gets rather complicated plus requires the creation of some signs. You're a worker of hot liquid (almost) metal, how do you sign that? Black + smith ? I'm sure two reasonably proficient signers could get the point across to each other, but it might be a little different for each conversation. T Dennis Miles wrote: > > Okay... So what do we do?? > D > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "tom roberts" > To: > Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2001 3:47 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language > > > Still a novice at sign but have both books and, while I like the > > simple diagrams that Tompkins provides, I really appreciate the > > depth of detail in Clark and was glad to have learned of it. For > > example, nearly 7 pages are devoted to "buffalo" alone. I've > > tabbed it and it travels with me. Both have their purpose but Clark > > is hard to put down. I would welcome learning of any other good sign > > books for comparison. > > > > Here's some dialog fodder: > > > > Neither Tompkins nor Clark provide reference to sign for several > > essentials > > such as "bullet", or "lead", or "mold". (Clark provides sign for > > "flint" > > while Tompkins does not). Any good signers out there wish to comment on > > these terms? > > > > Tom > > > > > > > > Gretchen Ormond wrote: > > > > > > >I think it is the sign for shoot or fire a gun. For fire the back of > > > the hand > > > >would be down held lower and the fingers would snap upward. > > > >Mark "Roadkill" Loader > > > > > > Mark gets the grand prize (glory and recognition no cash prizes sorry) > > > for first to guess correctly. I at least found the sign that emphasizes > > > the flash of a flinter a worthwhile variation that would likely be more > > > period correct than Tomkins version. It was not surprising that you > > > figured it out quickly but two bears post did surprise me. > > > > > > >whocares we use thompkins book and most dont use it. > > > two bear > > > > > > Languages are dynamic and whoever "we" are should open their minds a > > > little. At Nationals Yaro told me that he learned to use his thumb to > > > point to people with not the index finger. Kind of a fun variation to > > > me. He also used a sign that the brothers of the Poison River Party > > > understand perfectly well that Tomkin's watered down boy scout version > > > would never touch. Don't get me wrong Tomkin's book is great and I > > > appreciate him leaving us this valuable resource, but two bear if you > > > really have an interest in sign perhaps you would "care". > > > > > > One of the things that I wish that list members would spend more time on > > > is the wilderness skills. We go on for days about "period correct" and > > > material culture (clothing, shovels, leather, etc), but how much do we > > > talk about Aux Aliments de Pays, how to tell a coyote track from a > > > domestic dog, or how to keep a canoe upright when things go wrong. I > > > would be glad to hear of variations in sign, and you don't have to use > > > Webster book English ifn you don't want to. > > > > > > Wynn Ormond > > > > > > ---------------------- > > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language Date: 28 Jul 2001 15:03:05 -0600 I really enjoy the study of Indian Sign Language. Like any language, it takes a lot of practice and patience to gain even the most rudimentary skills. Most languages have varying numbers of dialects generally defined by geographic regions. So it is not surprising that Indian Sign talk also has some variables. It is important however to have a standard to begin with. I first purchased a copy of Tomkins book as a young Boy Scout in 1974. I thought it was a great book as I was infatuated with the American Indian culture. It wasn't until 24 years later that I got my hands on Clarks book. What a treasure! It has so much detail and is a great read for info on the culture alone. However, since most of us are mere amateurs at Indian Sign and struggle to gain minimal proficiency, I think it's important to begin with a recognized standard and go from there. I think that standard is and should be Tomkins book. Tomkins is easy to understand, has helpful illustrations and most importantly has been in use for a long time. I enjoy learning a sign from Tomkins, then checking to see what Clarks book might add. But it's frustrating to learn a sign in one manner, and then see someone do it completely different. In such instances I ask "What sign is that? I thought it was done this way.." The reply often is "Well, that's what Tomkins says, but I find Clarks version much better," or some similar answer. To make it simple, I've always advocated using Tomkins book as the standard. Among my circle of friends we have discussed this issue and agreed to use tomkins as our basis. We've even had discussions on what the appropriate interpretation of Tomkins signs are and then try to use an agreed upon standard among our group. Enjoying the discussion.........I remain...... "Teton" Todd D. Glover http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The West of Alfred Jacob Miller Date: 28 Jul 2001 17:39:22 EDT I'll up it to $125. NM ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language Date: 28 Jul 2001 18:41:51 EDT In a message dated 7/28/01 2:03:03 PM, tetontodd@juno.com writes: << I really enjoy the study of Indian Sign Language. Like any language, it takes a lot of practice and patience to gain even the most rudimentary skills. >> I too, am fascinated with Indian sign language, and have the 140 flash cards from "Books and Crannies". Used with Tomkins and Clark, and your web site, I think I can understand, and get more than a few ideas across. Unfortunately, there's not many people for me to practice with often. At Nationals, or any AMM gathering, someone mentioned at least one day should be a "no talk, sign only" day. Whoa.....that sure would get a few dusty books off the shelf! A few may have heard me, Crawdad, La Bisquee, Pappy, and some other boys from the Great North West, speak Chinook Jargon. It's a centuries old trade dialect that's been enlarged by the HBCo and used from the coast to the Rockies. It's not a difficult language to learn, period correct, and a great way to keep the FBI from reading your email.... I'm in the process of translating all of the two hundred signs in most general use to Chinook Jargon and will have that list available to those that are interested... Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language Date: 28 Jul 2001 19:40:51 -0700 Tom, I was very frustrated that I did not find a sign for lead or round ball. Then it occurred to me that Clark's book was written in the 1880's and Tompkin's was written latter than that. Bar lead and round balls were not commonly used that late. I think you will find that both have a sign for bullet or cartridge. The sign indicates roughly a 45/70 cartridge. I use the sign for gun and add a sign that I invented using the index finger and thumb to form a small circle to make the sign for round ball. I would think you could add a sign using both hands to indicate the size and shape of period bar lead, as it was traded to get the sign for bar lead. Improvise ! Adapt and Overcome ! I figure that is what they did ! Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language Date: 28 Jul 2001 19:59:50 -0700 Todd wrote , I think that standard is and should be Tomkins book. Tomkins is easy to understand, has helpful illustrations and most importantly has been in use for a long time. Todd, I use both, but much prefer Clark's book. I agree that Tompkin's is easier to use, but it doesn't give nearly enough information. It's easier for most folks to learn if they understand why a sign is made a certain way, and you don't get much of that from Tompkin's. I really wish Clark's book was the standard for that reason plus, I think many of the signs in Clark's are more descriptive and simply make more sense. If you really want to get confused, get yourself a copy of Tim McCoy's old tape. That old man was poetry in motion, but many of his signs are totally different. The thing that is interesting is, he actually lived it and used it as a cowboy working around the reservations at the turn of the 20th century. So which is right ? I dunno. I don't think there was a right and wrong way to make the signs back then. It was just communication, and whatever it took to make ones point was what was used. I think we get too hung up on the technical aspect of it. Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Douglas Hepner" Subject: MtMan-List: Conner Prarie Date: 28 Jul 2001 20:18:51 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006D_01C117A2.843B3CA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Got back last week from Conner Prarie just outside of Indianapolis, = Indianna. It is well worth the stop! It is an entire 1836 farming = community. Just thought I would let y'all know. Douglas Hepner ------=_NextPart_000_006D_01C117A2.843B3CA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Got back last week from = Conner Prarie=20 just outside of Indianapolis, Indianna. It is well worth the stop! It is = an=20 entire 1836 farming community. Just thought I would let y'all = know.
 
Douglas=20 Hepner
------=_NextPart_000_006D_01C117A2.843B3CA0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dennis Miles" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language Date: 28 Jul 2001 21:43:18 -0400 You're a worker of hot liquid (almost) metal, how do you sign that? >>Work + Hot + Iron (metal) Or work + iron (metal) Or shake me damned hammer at 'em with a BIG grin on my puss.. D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The West of Alfred Jacob Miller Date: 28 Jul 2001 22:28:28 -0600 Looks like Naugamok (that's you ain't it Vic?) has won the Alfred Jacob Miller book with a bid of $125.00! The land fund will benefit greatly from your bid. Contact me off list for details. I will be leaving for Scout camp on Monday, and won't be back until next Saturday. Thanks to all the bidders! "Teton" Todd D. Glover http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth Date: 29 Jul 2001 01:07:52 EDT Randy, Try Bed, Bath & Beyond or Strouds. They carry all kinds of Egyptian Cotton sheets. Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth Date: 29 Jul 2001 0:7:1 -0700 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Thanks Ralph..... Long time , no see...... How's you and the family. Did your arm come back 100%? I hope so. I'm suffering some tendon problems, but will get by. Steve McGehee dropped by this evening, and told me he found a website that carries egyptian cotton at 300+ threads per inch. Sounds like some tightly woven cloth. He says it's on his work 'puter, as his home 'puter is down with a virus. Once I get the site, I'll pass on the info. to everyone. He also brought me a frozen solid elk hide, which he got from a friend. In the morning it should be thawed enough to see what I have. I hope it's a good match for the partially processed elk hide that I already have in the freezer. If I'm lucky, the next time you see me I may be wearing a nice brain tanned coat? Wish me luck. Hope to see you soon. Randy ----- Original Message ----- Sent: 7/28/01 6:07:52 PM Randy, Try Bed, Bath Beyond or Strouds. They carry all kinds of Egyptian Cotton sheets. Barney ---------------------- --- Randal Bublitz --- rjbublitz@earthlink.net We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing it from our Children ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Thanks Ralph.....     Long time , no see......
 How's you and the family.  Did your arm come back 100%?  I hope so.  I'm suffering some tendon problems, but will get by.  Steve McGehee dropped by this evening, and  told me he found a website that carries egyptian cotton at 300+  threads per inch.  Sounds like some tightly woven cloth. He says it's on his work 'puter, as his home 'puter is down with a virus.  Once I get the site, I'll pass on the info. to everyone.  He also brought me a frozen solid elk hide, which he got from a friend.  In the morning it should be thawed enough to see what I have.  I hope it's a good match for the partially processed elk hide that I already have in the freezer.  If I'm lucky, the next time you see me I may be wearing a nice brain tanned coat?   Wish me luck.  Hope to see you soon.      Randy
----- Original Message -----
From:
Sent: 7/28/01 6:07:52 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: oil cloth

Randy, Try Bed, Bath & Beyond or Strouds.  They carry all kinds of Egyptian
Cotton sheets.    Barney
 
----------------------
 

 
--- Randal Bublitz
We have NOT inherited the Earth from our Fathers, we are Borrowing it from our Children
 
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry Huber" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language Date: 29 Jul 2001 08:44:51 -0700 I agree with Teton Todd here. Two Bears was referring to the decision by the American Mountain Men to use Tompkins guide for qualification in Indian Sign. Clark's book is much more detailed and a great reference for signs not covered by Tompkins or clarification of Tompkins' illustrations or descriptions. It is essential when working together as a group to agree on the basics of communication in this area. Because Tompkins illustrated his signs rather than rely on text alone makes his work the "basic" volume to learn from. Try getting scouts or any young person to learn from Clark ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2001 2:03 PM > I really enjoy the study of Indian Sign Language. Like any language, it > takes a lot of practice and patience to gain even the most rudimentary > skills. > Most languages have varying numbers of dialects generally defined by > geographic regions. So it is not surprising that Indian Sign talk also > has some variables. It is important however to have a standard to begin > with. > > I first purchased a copy of Tomkins book as a young Boy Scout in 1974. I > thought it was a great book as I was infatuated with the American Indian > culture. It wasn't until 24 years later that I got my hands on Clarks > book. What a treasure! It has so much detail and is a great read for info > on the culture alone. However, since most of us are mere amateurs at > Indian Sign and struggle to gain minimal proficiency, I think it's > important to begin with a recognized standard and go from there. I think > that standard is and should be Tomkins book. Tomkins is easy to > understand, has helpful illustrations and most importantly has been in > use for a long time. > > I enjoy learning a sign from Tomkins, then checking to see what Clarks > book might add. But it's frustrating to learn a sign in one manner, and > then see someone do it completely different. In such instances I ask > "What sign is that? I thought it was done this way.." The reply often is > "Well, that's what Tomkins says, but I find Clarks version much better," > or some similar answer. > > To make it simple, I've always advocated using Tomkins book as the > standard. Among my circle of friends we have discussed this issue and > agreed to use tomkins as our basis. We've even had discussions on what > the appropriate interpretation of Tomkins signs are and then try to use > an agreed upon standard among our group. > > Enjoying the discussion.........I remain...... > > "Teton" Todd D. Glover > http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzle Blasts Date: 29 Jul 2001 23:11:58 EDT --part1_82.dcac586.28962a7e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has any on seen the TV programs Muzzle Blasts on the Outdoor Channel on Monday nights Roadkill --part1_82.dcac586.28962a7e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has any on seen the TV programs Muzzle Blasts on the Outdoor Channel on
Monday nights
Roadkill --part1_82.dcac586.28962a7e_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TerryTwoBear@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language Date: 29 Jul 2001 23:28:46 EDT We being the amm. our officaly recomended book on sign is tompkins .we (AMM) seem to have problems interpiting one book let alone 2. TWO BEAR ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Flame Retardant Canvas Date: 30 Jul 2001 10:09:57 EDT --part1_4d.f042696.2896c4b5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/27/01 3:52:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, NaugaMok@aol.com writes: > Supposedly had been treated with "fire retardant" -- yea, right! > > Having been in the business (in one of my former jobs) of inspecting for and providing flame retardant applications for draperies, christmas displays and trees and stuff I will warn you all that there is no such thing as Flame Proof. And all fire retardant chemicals break down with repeated exposure to sunlight and rain, especially acid rain (for those of us living in the east). The application flame retardancy on a regular, repeated, basis is required by law for use of fabric in some public venues such as places of assemble (read that auditoriums) etc. All of the good tent makers for our hobby will tell you that flame retardant canvas IS NOT FLAME PROOF. And several stock and sell the chemicals so you can retreat your canvas after a few seasons, if you wish. When new a flame retradent canvas should not sustain flame, BUT in the presence of open flame, as in your camp fire or a tipped candle, it will burn. So be careful and safe with your fires. Y.M.O.S. C.T. Oakes --part1_4d.f042696.2896c4b5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/27/01 3:52:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, NaugaMok@aol.com
writes:


Supposedly had been treated with "fire retardant" -- yea, right!



Having been in the business (in one of my former jobs) of inspecting for and
providing flame retardant applications for draperies, christmas displays and
trees and stuff I will warn you all that there is no such thing as Flame
Proof.  And all fire retardant chemicals break down with repeated exposure to
sunlight and rain, especially acid rain (for those of us living in the east).
 The application flame retardancy on a regular, repeated, basis is required
by law for use of fabric in some public venues such as places of assemble
(read that auditoriums) etc.  All of the good tent makers for our hobby will
tell you that flame retardant canvas IS NOT FLAME PROOF.  And several stock
and sell the chemicals so you can retreat your canvas after a few seasons, if
you wish.  When new a flame retradent canvas should not sustain flame, BUT in
the presence of open flame, as in your camp fire or a tipped candle, it will
burn.  So be careful and safe with your fires.

Y.M.O.S.

C.T. Oakes --part1_4d.f042696.2896c4b5_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: The Journals of L & C Date: 31 Jul 2001 12:18:24 EDT Just a note to let those interested know: Costco is selling a hardbound version of The Journals of Lewis & Clark, edited by Bernard De Voto, published by Houghton Mifflin, copyright 1953, ISBN 0-618-16734-X, for $9.99. Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Hawkengun@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language Date: 31 Jul 2001 13:37:28 EDT Gentlemen, Tompkins is a very useful book, but it does not compare with Clark's in terms of the amount of research done, nor in the diversity of tribes studied. Clark's work was a treatise done for army officers to use in the field-- it was thoroughly researched and he offers different examples of signs used by different tribes and in different regions. It's just a far more serious piece of work. In addition, Clark got his info shortly after the end of the last Indian wars, Tompkins worked during the reservation-era. Clark's work is earlier and closer to being "period" for reenactors. Clark's book was for use by army officers who would actually be working w/ Indian warrior/scouts. When Tompkins and Clark disagree, it is probably much more accurate to opt for one of Clark's descriptions. To choose Tompkins simply because he has pictures and is therefore easier seems like a cop-out to me. It was the essence of sign language that it wasn't completely uniform from region to region, so why teach otherwise or try to make it uniform today? John R. Sweet Bent's Old Fort NHS ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clarks Sign Language Date: 31 Jul 2001 17:31:33 -0600 Amen. Don On Wednesday, September 18, 1940, Hawkengun@aol.com wrote: >Gentlemen, > >Tompkins is a very useful book, but it does not compare with Clark's in = terms=20 >of the amount of research done, nor in the diversity of tribes studied. =20 >Clark's work was a treatise done for army officers to use in the field-- = it=20 >was thoroughly researched and he offers different examples of signs used = by=20 >different tribes and in different regions. It's just a far more serious=20 >piece of work. =20 > >In addition, Clark got his info shortly after the end of the last Indian=20 >wars, Tompkins worked during the reservation-era. Clark's work is = earlier=20 >and closer to being "period" for reenactors. Clark's book was for use by=20 >army officers who would actually be working w/ Indian warrior/scouts. = When=20 >Tompkins and Clark disagree, it is probably much more accurate to opt for = one=20 >of Clark's descriptions. > >To choose Tompkins simply because he has pictures and is therefore easier=20 >seems like a cop-out to me. It was the essence of sign language that it=20 >wasn't completely uniform from region to region, so why teach otherwise = or=20 >try to make it uniform today? > >John R. Sweet >Bent's Old Fort NHS > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzle Blasts Date: 31 Jul 2001 20:47:47 EDT --part1_86.d66c1e9.2898abb3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Muzzle Blast Is on Wednesday at 4:00 PM MDT on the Outdoor Channel Roadkill --part1_86.d66c1e9.2898abb3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Muzzle Blast Is on Wednesday at 4:00 PM MDT on the Outdoor Channel
Roadkill --part1_86.d66c1e9.2898abb3_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "pat broehl" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Muzzle Blasts Date: 31 Jul 2001 18:26:19 -0700 >From: MarkLoader@aol.com >Muzzle Blast Is on Wednesday at 4:00 PM MDT on the Outdoor Channel >Roadkill To Roadkill, Great! I'll keep an eye pealed. Sounds good. Should be interesting. Thanks, Itsaquain _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html