Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under

= Hello the=20 list!
You were talking about Orange glow inthe dark Commercial tanned= =20 hides.
My first pair of Leggings I made where that color, and I= just=20 washed them a
time or two in the (RIT Dye remover) you can find at = most=20 stores. Just stick
them right in the washin machine. It turns = them a=20 somewhat smoked color. Now
when I put them on I don't stick out like = a=20 sore thumb. Thanks again Hardtack
for this tip!=20

= ; &= nbsp; &= nbsp; &= nbsp; Mandan=20

"Teton" Todd D.=20 Glover
http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html
----__JNP_000_4157.03e3.0a39-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: after the fact brain-tan? Date: 07 Sep 2001 14:30:12 EDT In a message dated 9/7/1 2:57:48 PM, frankf@cox-internet.com writes: << Now, the question, is it possible/practical to do anything at this point that might add some braintanning qualities? Like rubbing with a brain and liver mixture.>> You can smoke them. They will take on a more uniform color - though sleightly mottled - and you will smell good enough to eat. Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under Date: 07 Sep 2001 14:32:38 EDT In a message dated 9/7/1 4:03:59 PM, shootsprairie@hotmail.com writes: <> He had a number. He paid his first years dues and when he came up for renewal his wife sent a check for two years. I know. I deposited it in the AMM account and forwarded his card. Most sincerly Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under Date: 07 Sep 2001 14:33:00 EDT In a message dated 9/7/1 4:03:59 PM, shootsprairie@hotmail.com writes: <> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: RE: MtMan-List: sewing tips Date: 07 Sep 2001 14:07:29 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C137E1.1AC4A9F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I have made several leather shirts using common sense and observation of tailored cloth shirts, but read my note at the bottom before continuing. Hardtack's sewing method is the way to do it, and works well with sinew too (the pieces being a foot or so long depending on your source, but otherwise, handled the same). Mostly, I lay the two leather pieces together, sewing inside out, so the resulting seam will be to the inside, and punch my holes thru both pieces at once, so they automatically align. A single awl also works OK. A soft board or bed of cork for the awl to poke into is helpful. You can punch a few inches worth of holes, sew them before you lose your place, and continue punching. The way I make a simple pullover shirt is as follows: --As noted, begin by wetting and stretching commercial tanned skins and allowing to dry stretched. This occurs naturally in the final processing of brain tanned. --Select two skins, one front and one back, and orient in the direction of the original animal (shoulders matched to your shoulders). The usual wedge shape should hopefully cover your torso. This puts the thicker areas front and back with the thinner areas along the sides. I agree with putting the slick side in, and if you wear any skins long enough, the inside will get slick and greasy anyway. --Examine a commercial shirt, and note how the seams from neck hole to shoulders are placed somewhat forward of the center of the garment. Note also, the slant, of the shoulders, taking account of your own shoulders. --After establishing where the skins seem to cover you best, using clamps, staples, or an assistent, establish the shoulder seams, and where the neck hole will fall. You will now have to start cutting, always a momentous step, but this method minimizes risk. Turn the skins inside out (smooth side out) and sew the two shoulders along the marked lines. It is not actually necessary to cut yet, or at least, leave some margin in case of adjustments. You probably will need to make a minimum cut in each skin for the neck hole, keeping in mind you can always trim more off, but it's annoying to put anything back. --Sew the two shoulder seams, about six inches each, on each side of the neck hole. You should now have a poncho-like garment you can actually drape over your head. Put it on, and assess the neck hole and shoulder seams. Trim the neck opening reasonably well so the shirt lays on you. Clamp the leather together under your arms, and start establishing the side seams. Go slowly however, make sure the shoulder fit is good. It's a small amount of sewing to re-do at this point. --Mark the side seams, leaving some slack for pulling it off, and don't make the arm holes too tight. Here is where you will note that for most comfortable fit the shoulder seam will be slightly front of center. In particular, mark where the sides come together most naturally while wearing the shirt, as it will not lie flat when you take it off to sew it. --Sew a few inches of side seam, and recheck the fit. NOTE: you are sewing inside out, and it is not necessary to trim the leather all the way back to the seams initially, in case you have to let it out some. --When confident of fit, sew the sides all the way past your belt line, but you can leave the last few inches open below the waist. --You should now have a tunic with no arms. Check the fit again and make any adjustments. Again, allow for slack under the arms. --You may apply a collar or cape now or later, using period patterns for suggestions. When you do the collar, you will of course have to complete establishing the neck opening. --Trim the leather back to within about 1/4-inch of your seams, ONLY AFTER you are quite confident that it fits well. To attach the arms as noted below, you will need to work right-side out. --The arms take more leather than you might think. Ideally, you will have a large, thin skin with enough for two arms, or even two small skins. Put the thin part inside the elbow. Wrap the skin around your arm and match the upper diameter to the armholes of your tunic, keeping in mind you need to be able to raise your arms overhead. Usually, sewing the arms so they poke out at right angles is OK, Again, check how commercial shirts do it. The arms should be quite tapered. --The arms will tend to bunch up lengthwise as you wear it, so make the sleeves as long as you can. Fold back the excess into cuffs. Long cuffs can be let down as partial gloves, to handle hot pans, etc. --As before, the seam along the arms is butt-seamed and sewed inside out. Usually, you need only one seam, along the inside, unless having to piece together smaller remnants. --To connect the arms to the tunic, I have had good results by lap-seaming the arms inside the tunic. By putting the arms inside the tunic, and saddle stitching the overlapped area, you get a smooth join, AND the excess material left on the tunic that hangs over the shoulders can be trimmed into a bit of decorative fringing. --I recommend against long fringe on sleeves and down the side, as it catches on stuff, drags in your food, and bunches up underneath you when sleeping. You can fringe the lower edge of the tunic for decoration if you like. --I can offer no particular documentation for the resulting pullover shirt, other than it uses basic European designs, was also seen in northern tribes where wind proofing is an issue, and of course uses primitive materials. The general pattern resembles what you would get if you duplicated a period cloth shirt with available leather and the simplest construction. Most references to "hunting shirts" describe a long open-front leather shirt, worn over a cloth shirt, sort of like a leather capote (without the hood). The pullover shirt described here is more of a primary shirt that you would add outer layers to as required. Good luck Pat Quilter -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 10:06 PM sorry about the blank post prior to this one...... Dick's new shirt project brought up a question...... What is everyone's favorite sewing technique when working with leather ? ? ? Does anyone have any neat tricks, etc..... ? ? I tend to make a 'kit', then put it together. For instance, I made a punch out of an old fork. I cut most of the handle off, then sharpened the tines with a file. I take a pre cut piece of leather and score a line along the edge to be sewn . I align my 4 prong punch along the line and strike (4 holes). Place fork in last hole, strike again (3 more holes), etc...... This leaves me a nice straight line of evenly punched holes. I then take two dull pointed needles and thread with a piece of waxed linen thread. I tie the ends, so I have a loop with 2 needles on it. I bring the needles equidistant from the knot. held apart you have a needle in each hand, with a double string in between with the knot in the middle. To start a stitch pass one needle through the first hole and pull knot up to the hole. Now you have a needle on each side. pass each needle through the next hole from opposite sides, repeat , etc.... This is called a saddle stitch. It looks good, and is very strong. Don't do a run with one needle, and then catch up with the other.... for a good lock stitch do each hole at a time. Once you get the rythm down it goes quick enough. I'm interested to learn how you guys like to do it? hardtack ------_=_NextPart_001_01C137E1.1AC4A9F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

I have made several leather shirts using common sense and observation of tailored cloth shirts, but read my note at the bottom before continuing.

Hardtack's sewing method is the way to do it, and works well with sinew too (the pieces being a foot or so long depending on your source, but otherwise, handled the same).

Mostly, I lay the two leather pieces together, sewing inside out, so the resulting seam will be to the inside, and punch my holes thru both pieces at once, so they automatically align. A single awl also works OK. A soft board or bed of cork for the awl to poke into is helpful. You can punch a few inches worth of holes, sew them before you lose your place, and continue punching.

The way I make a simple pullover shirt is as follows:

--As noted, begin by wetting and stretching commercial tanned skins and allowing to dry stretched. This occurs naturally in the final processing of brain tanned.

--Select two skins, one front and one back, and orient in the direction of the original animal (shoulders matched to your shoulders). The usual wedge shape should hopefully cover your torso. This puts the thicker areas front and back with the thinner areas along the sides. I agree with putting the slick side in, and if you wear any skins long enough, the inside will get slick and greasy anyway.

--Examine a commercial shirt, and note how the seams from neck hole to shoulders are placed somewhat forward of the center of the garment. Note also, the slant, of the shoulders, taking account of your own shoulders.

--After establishing where the skins seem to cover you best, using clamps, staples, or an assistent, establish the shoulder seams, and where the neck hole will fall. You will now have to start cutting, always a momentous step, but this method minimizes risk. Turn the skins inside out (smooth side out) and sew the two shoulders along the marked lines. It is not actually necessary to cut yet, or at least, leave some margin in case of adjustments. You probably will need to make a minimum cut in each skin for the neck hole, keeping in mind you can always trim more off, but it's annoying to put anything back.

--Sew the two shoulder seams, about six inches each, on each side of the neck hole. You should now have a poncho-like garment you can actually drape over your head. Put it on, and assess the neck hole and shoulder seams. Trim the neck opening reasonably well so the shirt lays on you. Clamp the leather together under your arms, and start establishing the side seams. Go slowly however, make sure the shoulder fit is good. It's a small amount of sewing to re-do at this point.

--Mark the side seams, leaving some slack for pulling it off, and don't make the arm holes too tight. Here is where you will note that for most comfortable fit the shoulder seam will be slightly front of center. In particular, mark where the sides come together most naturally while wearing the shirt, as it will not lie flat when you take it off to sew it.

--Sew a few inches of side seam, and recheck the fit. NOTE: you are sewing inside out, and it is not necessary to trim the leather all the way back to the seams initially, in case you have to let it out some.

--When confident of fit, sew the sides all the way past your belt line, but you can leave the last few inches open below the waist.

--You should now have a tunic with no arms. Check the fit again and make any adjustments. Again, allow for slack under the arms.

--You may apply a collar or cape now or later, using period patterns for suggestions. When you do the collar, you will of course have to complete establishing the neck opening.

--Trim the leather back to within about 1/4-inch of your seams, ONLY AFTER you are quite confident that it fits well. To attach the arms as noted below, you will need to work right-side out.

--The arms take more leather than you might think. Ideally, you will have a large, thin skin with enough for two arms, or even two small skins. Put the thin part inside the elbow. Wrap the skin around your arm and match the upper diameter to the armholes of your tunic, keeping in mind you need to be able to raise your arms overhead. Usually, sewing the arms so they poke out at right angles is OK, Again, check how commercial shirts do it. The arms should be quite tapered.

--The arms will tend to bunch up lengthwise as you wear it, so make the sleeves as long as you can. Fold back the excess into cuffs. Long cuffs can be let down as partial gloves, to handle hot pans, etc.

--As before, the seam along the arms is butt-seamed and sewed inside out. Usually, you need only one seam, along the inside, unless having to piece together smaller remnants.

--To connect the arms to the tunic, I have had good results by lap-seaming the arms inside the tunic. By putting the arms inside the tunic, and saddle stitching the overlapped area, you get a smooth join, AND the excess material left on the tunic that hangs over the shoulders can be trimmed into a bit of decorative fringing.

--I recommend against long fringe on sleeves and down the side, as it catches on stuff, drags in your food, and bunches up underneath you when sleeping. You can fringe the lower edge of the tunic for decoration if you like.

--I can offer no particular documentation for the resulting pullover shirt, other than it uses basic European designs, was also seen in northern tribes where wind proofing is an issue, and of course uses primitive materials. The general pattern resembles what you would get if you duplicated a period cloth shirt with available leather and the simplest construction. Most references to "hunting shirts" describe a long open-front leather shirt, worn over a cloth shirt, sort of like a leather capote (without the hood). The pullover shirt described here is more of a primary shirt that you would add outer layers to as required.

Good luck

Pat Quilter

-----Original Message-----
From: Bublitz@aol.com [mailto:Bublitz@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 10:06 PM
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sewing tips

sorry about the blank post prior to this one......
Dick's new shirt project brought up a question......      What is everyone's
favorite sewing technique when working with leather ? ? ? Does anyone have
any neat tricks, etc.....   ? ?
    I tend to make a 'kit', then put it together. For instance, I made a
punch out of an old fork. I cut most of the handle off, then sharpened the
tines with a file. I take a pre cut piece of leather and score a line along
the edge to be sewn . I align my 4 prong punch along the line and strike (4
holes). Place fork in last hole, strike again (3 more holes), etc......
This leaves me a nice straight line of evenly punched holes. I then take two
dull pointed needles and thread with a piece of waxed linen thread. I tie
the ends, so I have a loop with 2 needles on it. I bring the needles
equidistant from the knot. held apart you have a needle in each hand, with
a double string in between with the knot in the middle. To start a stitch
pass one needle through the first hole and pull knot up to the hole. Now you
have a needle on each side. pass each needle through the next hole from
opposite sides, repeat , etc.... This is called a saddle stitch. It looks
good, and is very strong. Don't do a run with one needle, and then catch up
with the other.... for a good lock stitch do each hole at a time. Once you
get the rythm down it goes quick enough.    I'm interested to learn how you
guys like to do it?    hardtack

------_=_NextPart_001_01C137E1.1AC4A9F0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: RE: MtMan-List: sewing tips Date: 07 Sep 2001 18:33:10 EDT In a message dated 9/7/1 10:14:02 PM, pat_quilter@qscaudio.com writes: <> Addendum to Pat Quilter's shirt making directions: First - the shirt description seems to be that of a euopean-influences pattern. Great! Let me caution you all to NOT make a shirt of a decorated Indian pattern - medicine shirt, etc.. To any Indian who knows his stuff (not TV educated), a white man in such apparel is highly offensive. Second - a white-man shirt made of commercial deer skins is very period. (see "breeches" in Rural Penna. Clothing publication). The colonists and Europeans used leather of their own tanning to make clothes. However, slick-in was the rule for easy on easy off dressing/undressing. They also dyed their leather - sometimes after it had been worn a while to cover up spots and spills. Third - saddle stitching is a very-whiteh-man technique. Indians used the running stitch with a welted seam . . . far more practical for buckskin clothing. Fourth - If you want fringe on your sleeve, do not put it on the bottom (lower) edge of the seam. Believe me! You will end up with an arm pit full of fringe . . . very uncomfortable. Instead -- lay out the sleeve for the desired outline, but make the seam paralel to the top edge of the sleeve. This means a fold rather than a seam along the bottom. If you want a yoke-type body where there is fringe across the back, (or/and front), the fringe on the body connects the two points where the sleeve fringe/seam contacts the body. This is non-Indian and very correct. Third - Why do you want a leather shirt, anyway?? As Osbourn Russell pointed out - it is far more comfortable to be wet in a cloth shirt than a leather one, but when leather must be used, they prefered antelope because it is so much lighter. First time I tried on a leather shirt (1967) I thought I had "arrived". I made and wore two more after that before I discovered the wisdome of Russell. A buckskin jacket (see Miller's paintings of Stewart's French hunter) or a smock are FAR more practical. (an opinion based on considerable experience) Most sincerely Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: RE: MtMan-List: sewing tips Date: 07 Sep 2001 18:33:43 EDT In a message dated 9/7/1 10:14:02 PM, pat_quilter@qscaudio.com writes: <> ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TerryTwoBear@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under Date: 07 Sep 2001 20:05:16 EDT Brother Ole, Granville Martin calif member ist party laguna mountain party.when we put him under all present received a peice of leather with his name,party and #9 that is where i got the number Two Bear ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: after the fact brain-tan? Date: 07 Sep 2001 22:16:56 EDT In a message dated 9/7/01 9:57:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, frankf@cox-internet.com writes: << Now, the question, is it possible/practical to do anything at this point that might add some braintanning qualities? Like rubbing with a brain and liver mixture. >> Frank, Maybe you could use the pant legs and shirt bottom to wipe the grease off your hands. After a year or two they should develop that neat black color !!! I understand that would be somewhat period correct!!! :) -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: WAS:after the fact brain-tan? NOW: Sanding Scarf skin Date: 07 Sep 2001 22:21:44 EDT In a message dated 9/7/01 11:55:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rtlahti@msn.com writes: << I would think your best bet would be to disassemble the garments, wet and stretch them, let them dry on that hard smooth surface, sand the scarf skin off best you can with that sander and sheet rock pad, >> Capt. Lahti, Why would the pants need to be disassembled and stretched? Could he not sand off the scarf skin with the pants as they are now. True, the stuff in and near the seams would not come off but the rest would and Frank would not have to contend with parts of his pants that do not really line up just right anymore. If any of y'all have sewn anything you know a little variance can throw the garment dimensions way off!!!! (If you do not believe me...I have a set of dropfront britches that would make Jethro Bodine proud!!!) -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: WAS:after the fact brain-tan? NOW: Sanding Scarf skin Date: 07 Sep 2001 19:40:08 -0700 > Why would the pants need to be disassembled and stretched? Could he not sand > off the scarf skin with the pants as they are now. -C.Kent, There is usually a good reason for following directions as given. If I were Frank or anyone else who wishes to try this method, I strongly suggest you follow directions. The whole reason for wetting the leather and stretching it flat on a firm surface is to make it possible to actually sand off the scarf skin without sanding holes through the leather but just as important, to make it possible to actually sand it off in the first place. If it is not stretched wet, dryed and kept flat, it is almost impossible to do an even job or get the sanding medium to work. He will actually end up with more leather than he started with since the epidermus layer has a natural tendency to draw up when dry and stretch out when wet. It also is "bunched" up when dry and not under stress so if you try to sand it off , you only take the high spots and the leather generally tends to "roll" around under the sander which just causes further problems. Of course your free to try it. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kim & Jen" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 Date: 07 Sep 2001 18:02:57 -0600 Captain Lahti and Teton; Somewhere along the line of my post I must have come across as just barely above a total neophyte. Sorry I left that impression. As for "those of us that have been around a few years" I think that I qualify. For the last 35 years or so living in the Wind Rivers and trapping nearly everything that moves, brain tanning some of my catch/kills, researching most of the Fur Trade Era history of this area, collecting books and manuscripts, etc, and writing articles and working on historical novels of the time period, giving lectures and talks for the public and for skinners alike, stripping and sewing with sinew, living with the Indians themselves and learning their techniques, practicing the survival skills and medicines of the old days, rendezvousing for 28 years and being married to a Lakhota should get me there. Sorry I took exception if none was aimed my way, but that's the way I took it. As far as your responses I pretty much agree with most of what was said with the possible exception of the long fringe really getting in the way and not being used by the Indians themselves when out in the bush, so to speak. Having done many miles of running in 7 inch and longer fringe with little dificulty leads me to this conclusion as well as having the Indian elders (my Lakhota adoptive father who lived in the 1800s as one) tell me of their experiences. I'm not talking of running through the trees, rocks sagebrush, etc., with beaded, ermine trimmed and much adorned leggings. Just the basic legging with fringe, a breachclout and moccasins and perhaps either your rifle or bowcase and quiver. This would have been an impossition for a plains Indian of the Horse Culture as much as being afoot was for the white trapper. As for the "running around in commercial skins" thing, maybe it was a poor choice of words. I have a friend who is 87 years old, has trapped, snow shoed and lived in the wildest conditions that any of us can imagine for 80 years and is wearing buckskins of chrome tanned leather, however the color is correct. This man has forgotten more about the old trapping and Indian ways than most of us will ever be privileged to know. He just isn't into going any farther than he needs to at this stage of his life to sit around the camp fire at rendezvous and impart what knowledge others ask him to impart. My point was that there are those of us out here that might not need the AMM credentials to make us genuine. I considered it years ago and like joining MENSA, I declined. I do know the difference between brain tan and commercial, and period correct and that stuff that passes at the usual rendezvous. I am curious, though, if anyone can provide proof that the Indians didn't use dream catchers before 1840. The Bridger rendezvous and others don't want to allow even "period correct" willow hooped, sinew webbed, feathered and beaded with pre- 1840 beads, dream catchers. I have been personally told that there is no proof that the white man can find that put it's usage befor the 1870's. The Ojibways, Lakhotas and other tribes say that they have used them for several hundred years to thousands of years. Any comments? CallsTheWind ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 Date: 07 Sep 2001 21:53:50 -0700 The Bridger rendezvous and others > don't want to allow even "period correct" willow hooped, sinew webbed, > feathered and beaded with pre- 1840 beads, dream catchers. I have been > personally told that there is no proof that the white man can find that put > it's usage befor the 1870's. > The Ojibways, Lakhotas and other tribes say that they have used them for > several hundred years to thousands of years. > Any comments? > CallsTheWind CallsTheWind, Comments? Yes lots but where to begin? Probably best not to say anything. Oh, what the hell.... We walk a fine line here between a pure discussion of History (which is the chartered purpose of this list) and discussions of what is and isn't historical, correct, period correct, proven, suspected, or believed in a spiritual sense, along with what is OK at various events, that it behooves us all to think through our responses before we make them public for no other reason than to avoid confusion and worse, hard feelings. I'm not going to dig back to what you offered that caused me to go into further detail and explanation. Suffice it to say that we were not talking about what you and I have done in our own personal lives but trying to answer another's need for guidance in the world of "Modern Rendezvous" and "historical re-enactment". I'll stand by my comments and observations of what was historically correct and what is practical for someone portraying a white or Anglicized trapper of the Rocky Mt. Fur Trade Era. Most participants and practitioners do not run around in breech clout and leggings + moc's. They hardly get involved in "living" the life much more than a weekend or week at a time. They don't portray "Plains Indians". They are torn between wanting to get involved and doing it cheaply and doing it right. Most get the wrong image from what their first encounters show them. Few actually get good advice before they have jumped in with both feet but head first into the mud. If I'm asked, I will give my best answers. And I will temper that only by what I perceive the questioner's real intent is. Some will wish to know how to do it absolutely authentically from the get-go, some will have an honest need to cut a corner or two on the way. Different needs. Different answers. Now to your "Dream Catchers". What this and serious re-enacting is all about is authentication. Authenticate them at the original Rendezvous and they are accepted. Fail to do so and they are suspect and may not be accepted by any number of organizations/organizers. Of course you can be the organizer and permit them if you wish. You say the Ojibway and other tribes claim to have had them for several hundred years? Show the evidence. Oral tradition is great for story telling and religious belief but it doesn't cut it as far as authentication of historical correctness is concerned. Oral history often does not mesh with archeological evidence or the lack thereof. It should be listened to with respect for the truth it may contain, but it is not definitive proof. In this end of the game we do not look for proof that it can't be shown not to have been present. We show proof that it was. Or as a purist, it is not accepted. Of course this is all prefaced with the supposition that one is concerned with authenticity in their personal choices or the standards of a particular group or organization of like minded individuals. Modern Rendezvous pay lip service to authenticity. Other groups such as AMM work hard to foster and attain authenticity, though we often find we have fallen short of the mark. But we are entitled to set standards and entitled to believe certain things to be so until proven otherwise because we are not public. And it is not necessary to be AMM to be genuine. As an organization, AMM gets it right more often than not. As individual members, AMM'ers are all pilgrims on a journey with no end. But I think you know what I am saying and where I am coming from. Thank you for your resume of accomplishments, affiliations, knowledge, level of intelligence and live experiences. You are a unique and special individual as are we all. I have no quarrel with you. I only wish to give my best advice and answer when I perceive I have been asked to comment. If I disagree with someone else's answers or comments I will try to enter the discussion with good manners and grace. If I did not do that, you have my apology. As always, I remain............. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 Date: 08 Sep 2001 07:51:08 -0400 I agree with Capt. Lahti remarks on AMM being a never ending search. I am not a member, though at one time I fought to be one and then saw the errors of my way. ;-) Men need men things and the ladies can teach them men. Rather be a contrary lady with lots of little opinions based on my research, travels and Native people I have learned from and then help a few "men" become members. There are several women on this list who could fulfill all the requirements. Also, there is going to be a great conference or symposium by some very learned people, Native and white, at Great Falls, Montana if you really like to argue a point. They can give you an ear full about Dream Catchers. I will be there.....drop by. http://www.tipis-tepees-teepees.com/seminar_on_native_american_mater.htm And on with the remarks on Dream Catchers, in the many museums and private collections of the North Plains and Central Plains, written research among some very noted collectors, historians and even ledger drawings, I have not seen one of these Dream Catchers. But I have, in my 40+ years have heard the changing stories and names of the item and how they have developed into a huge tourist item and that now every tribe has a "history" of a Dream catcher. Most of this seems to have started during the 1960s as a tourist item for the Powwows and exploded from there in to the very outlandish hoops of today. What tourist is going to buy a plain little piece of round wood with fake sinew on it. They want gaudy and a good story to go with that prized "Indian item". Now I have seen willow hoops in a few New England and Plains collections that date back to the mid. 1800s that were used in games or as practice targets for throwing sticks or spears. But the so called "Dream Catcher" of today with all its feathers, beads and furry things does not seem to have existed in the old times and not by that name. The Great Lakes tribes and area did make a "little" round hoop to sometimes hang on a cradle board to amuse the child...and that went with the old stories of the "Spider" and were mostly related to catching bad dreams before they got to the baby or out to spread to the world...I forget which at this moment. But there are so many stories of that hoop and now the true meaning of the item is getting lost in the "New Age" lingo. What is period correct when referring to the materials. Are you really referring to "real" sinew and a few old time beads. As to the feathers, is that eagle, hawk or owl or Prairie Chicken, Canadian Geese, Swan, or dove? Or are we talking the synthetic plastic sinew, reproduction old time beads and pheasant, turkey, or colored chicken feathers? These are just a few observations, opinions or insights from the side bars. Linda Holley http:www.tipis-tepees-teepees.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under Date: 08 Sep 2001 07:34:15 -0700 Mr. Huber, Slim had a number=347 Youre sausage and biscuit eatin buddy Ole # 718 ---------- >From: "Larry Huber" >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under >Date: Fri, Sep 7, 2001, 7:26 AM > >Did Slim Pickins have a number or was he just an informed fan of the AMM? >An "honorary" member, so to speak? > >Larry Huber >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 7:59 AM >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under > > >> Ole >> >> Slim Pickins should be on this list as well. I know he paid for three >years >> membership. Once on sign-up and a renewal for two years. >> >> Dick James >> >> P.S. Who is this Ole at the top of the deceased list??? >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ole B. Jensen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under Date: 08 Sep 2001 07:46:09 -0700 Terry, I finnaly found his original entry in the ledger, his number was Gray Beard # 8. YMOS Ole # 718 ---------- >From: TerryTwoBear@aol.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under >Date: Fri, Sep 7, 2001, 5:05 PM > >Brother Ole, Granville Martin calif member ist party >laguna mountain party.when we put him under all present > received a peice of leather with his name,party and #9 > that is where i got the number > Two Bear > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott mcmahon Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Buck-skin shirt Date: 08 Sep 2001 07:22:34 -0700 (PDT) -Well I was waiting for this to come up and it may have been covered already as I still have a few emails I haven't read but I'll add my thoughts anyway....If you use this method you will have a nice pair of buckskin levis, NOT a period pair of buckskin trousers! If you really want a pair of period trousers get a pattern from Past Patterns(can be found through Alter Years out of California?) for straight leg mid 19th century trousers. They will fit properly and will also have the "look" of period trousers ie. the waist will be in the proper place(middle fall button at the navel). They are drop front which is not outdated or uncommon for the 30's as some would have you believe. You will have to use alittle ingenuity since leather is thicker than wools and satinettes when seams are concerned, generally around the waist band but in the end you'll be happy with the outcome. Just my thoughts! Scott McMahon _______________________________________________________ http://inbox.excite.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 Date: 08 Sep 2001 12:58:12 EDT In a message dated 9/8/1 3:46:50 AM, kimanjen@wyoming.com writes: <> I am looking for evidence that they existed before 1990. Any documentation?? RJames ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 Date: 08 Sep 2001 13:07:30 -0400 Dream catchers, chrome tan disguising, I "couldda' been AMM, but didn't wanna", "if they'd a had it"...Crap like this just clogs the bandwith and belongs on a porkeating, flatlander list. Learning the way it was done and trying to correctly emulate it the best that you can. Sharing of knowledge, research, experience and mebby some humor is what belongs here, I think. My $.02. Am I being a hardheaded prick again??? D "Imagine my disappointment when I found out "Baby Back Ribs" weren't from babies" -Me ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 Date: 08 Sep 2001 11:23:34 -0600 > I am looking for evidence that they existed before 1990. Any documentation?? > RJames Something to consider. Hoops have been documented in games. They were used as targets. I doubt that they were a mountain man thing here in Montana being used as dream catchers. But the idea and use of hoops is very old. Cheers, Walt Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 Date: 08 Sep 2001 13:29:15 EDT In a message dated 9/8/1 12:51:04 PM, tipis@mediaone.net writes: << . . . can give you an ear full about Dream Catchers. I will be there....>> Linda Just read your several paragraph message - again. You strike me as a very perceptive lady -- one in touch with reality. I promise never again to delete a message from tipis @ mediaone again without reading. Most Sincerly Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 Date: 08 Sep 2001 15:27:23 -0400 I am????? Not according to my students and Vice Principle. Was that a compliment? And is my ear big enough? is this good news?? Who is buying the drinks? and I am staying at the Ponderosa Inn where is symposium will be held. Sounds like there will be one hell of a good party, discussion on anything and it will go into the night. Cannot wait for the "show and tell/sells" that will happen in many of the rooms. And whose tribe of Dream Catchers are we going to discuss into the night, Seminole???? Want to get my Dream Catcher earrings on along with my Dream Catcher necklaces and Dream Catcher watch. Want to make sure I "catch" everything you say...and how long it takes.....;-). And you mean to say you have been deleting my words of sometimes humorous wisdom..? I will buy you a drink for being brave. Look for the large lady with the miniature Crow horse collar around her neck. You can't miss me. And you won't be able to miss me without the collar....I have a tendency to run over people. You can also listen for the Southern accent and the screams of laughter. Love to laugh....love to win a good point and love to learn. So don't hesitate to come up and say....I'm Richard James from the internet and give me a good hug....I always need a good hug. Linda Holley http://www.tipis-tepees-teepees.com SWzypher@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/8/1 12:51:04 PM, tipis@mediaone.net writes: > > << . . . can give you an ear full about Dream Catchers. I will be > there....>> > > Linda > Just read your several paragraph message - again. You strike me as a very > perceptive lady -- one in touch with reality. > > I promise never again to delete a message from tipis @ mediaone again without > reading. > > Most Sincerly > Richard James > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: MtMan-List: Dream Catchers....oh yea>>??? 1990???? Date: 08 Sep 2001 15:47:42 -0400 Linda Holley wrote: > I think we can find plenty of documentation of before 1990. How about 1950??? > 1940? 1930? or so. There are plenty of documentation's after 1950....before that > there is a great deal of vagueness. > Each site is different: > http://www.nativetech.org/dreamcat/drmabout.html > http://www.nativetech.org/dreamcat/dreamfaq.html > http://www.nativetech.org/dreamcat/dreamcat.html > > I am enclosing this web site on catchers.....dig through it.....there are some > very interesting items of information. > > Linda Holley > > SWzypher@aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 9/8/1 3:46:50 AM, kimanjen@wyoming.com writes: > > > > < > > > didn't use dream catchers before 1840. >> > > > > I am looking for evidence that they existed before 1990. Any documentation?? > > RJames > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover Subject: Tetons response to: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 Date: 08 Sep 2001 15:30:36 -0600 Calls the Wind, I'm glad you didn't take any offense, certainly none was meant. I was about to compose a response when I glanced down and noticed the good Capt's message. He summed it up rather well as usual. My only other comment is concerning your 87 year old friend as an example. I've no doubt that he is a consummate outdoorsman and trapper with skills I may never dream of matching. Does this qualify him as an expert on the correct and authentic portrayal of the 19th century Rocky Mountain trapper? Not necessarily, unless you failed to mention other experience he has. I suspect that if we talked to him about period correctness and authenticity, that he would merely chuckle at the question. It reminds me of questioning Native Americans about authenticity and correctness. Some have scoffed and said "Of course it's correct and authentic, I'm and Indian and I made it so it's authentic." Maybe I'm a little sensitive on this topic having just returned from the gathering at Fort Bridger, where a large concentration of the most outlandish fantasy Mountain Man costumes this side of a Davy Crockett movie were displayed. There was one fellow, well known by now, who struts around in an exact chrome tanned duplicate of a pair of Oshkosh bib overalls complete with hammer loop and tool pockets! What is going through his mind!!?? And what about those ten or twelve "Mountain Men" who lined up on the famed bridge wearing nothing but breechcloths, where they all bent over and displayed a sizeable portion of their rear ends to the delight of the photo snapping crowd of ladies. The "Chippendale Free Trappers" at their finest. Never saw that in a Miller painting. I guess I just take some affront to those fantasy costumed impostors strutting around with a smirk of self congratulations on their faces. I can excuse the greenhorn for lack of knowledge. For the old timer and professed "veteran" it's inexcusable. "Teton" Todd D. Glover http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 Date: 08 Sep 2001 22:06:42 +0000 D, No, for one, I don't think your being a hard headed prick.(of course, I don't know you personally)but, the sentiments you voice here, I agree with whole heartedly. The proof should not be on us to prove Indians DIDN'T use dreamcatchers pre-1840. It should be that we prove that they DID use them before 1840. I've never seen any documentation on dream catchers anywhere before 1840. I feel pretty dern silly even writing about this issue. But, this thread proves what I have been trying to say on other threads. Some of us research then go with the documentation to be as authentic as possible and learn about the trade the way it really was, others get a cockamamie idea from who knows where, and try to make the documentation fit their fantasy. That simply is not the way to do research. In the 1970-1980's it was god's eyes, now, it's dreamcatchers. What fad will come along next is anybodys guess. In a good way, Don Secondine >From: "Double Edge Forge" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 >Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 13:07:30 -0400 > >Dream catchers, chrome tan disguising, I "couldda' been AMM, but didn't >wanna", > "if they'd a had it"...Crap like this just clogs the bandwith and belongs >on a porkeating, flatlander list. Learning the way it was done and trying >to >correctly emulate it the best that you can. Sharing of knowledge, research, >experience and mebby some humor is what belongs here, I think. >My $.02. > >Am I being a hardheaded prick again??? >D > > >"Imagine my disappointment when I found out "Baby Back Ribs" weren't from >babies" >-Me > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: Tetons response to: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 Date: 08 Sep 2001 22:20:44 +0000 I believe you've hit the nail square on the head again, Teton! Hope to share a fire with you one of these days. Later, Don Secondine >From: Todd Glover >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Tetons response to: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 >Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 15:30:36 -0600 > >Calls the Wind, > > I'm glad you didn't take any offense, certainly none was meant. >I was about to compose a response when I glanced down and noticed the >good Capt's >message. He summed it up rather well as usual. > My only other comment is concerning your 87 year old friend as an >example. I've no doubt that >he is a consummate outdoorsman and trapper with skills I may never dream >of matching. Does this qualify him >as an expert on the correct and authentic portrayal of the 19th century >Rocky Mountain trapper? Not necessarily, >unless you failed to mention other experience he has. I suspect that if >we talked to him about period correctness >and authenticity, that he would merely chuckle at the question. It >reminds me of questioning Native Americans >about authenticity and correctness. Some have scoffed and said "Of course >it's correct and authentic, I'm and Indian >and I made it so it's authentic." > Maybe I'm a little sensitive on this topic having just returned >from the gathering at Fort Bridger, where a large concentration of the >most outlandish fantasy Mountain Man costumes this side of a Davy >Crockett movie were displayed. There was one fellow, well known by now, >who struts around in an exact chrome tanned duplicate of a pair of >Oshkosh bib overalls complete with hammer loop and tool pockets! >What is going through his mind!!?? And what about those ten or twelve >"Mountain Men" who lined up >on the famed bridge wearing nothing but breechcloths, where they all bent >over and displayed a sizeable portion >of their rear ends to the delight of the photo snapping crowd of ladies. >The "Chippendale Free Trappers" at their finest. >Never saw that in a Miller painting. > I guess I just take some affront to those fantasy costumed >impostors strutting around with a smirk of self congratulations >on their faces. I can excuse the greenhorn for lack of knowledge. For the >old timer and professed "veteran" it's >inexcusable. > > >"Teton" Todd D. Glover >http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 Date: 08 Sep 2001 16:01:17 -0700 > Am I being a hardheaded prick again??? > D Yes, but we have come to expect it so don't go changing. You'll throw us all off balance. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TerryTwoBear@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM Brothers Gone under Date: 08 Sep 2001 20:06:48 EDT Brother Ole, thanks Two Bear ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 Date: 08 Sep 2001 20:44:25 -0400 " don't go changing. You'll throw us all off balance. " Rog, Don't you worry none..Won't do it.... I have to be as I am, to balance that sickening "understanding & nurturing" portion of this hobby... D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Knives and Iron Accouterments http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning." ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 Date: 08 Sep 2001 20:42:13 -0400 linda--- darling you going to be at the alifi---I still have a unborn buffilo skin here--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 Date: 08 Sep 2001 22:49:59 -0400 I was there last time....hope to be there again. linda hawknest4@juno.com wrote: > linda--- > darling you going to be at the alifi---I still have a unborn buffilo skin > here--- > > "HAWK" > Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) > 854 Glenfield Dr. > Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 > E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: > http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce > > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kim & Jen" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #856 Date: 08 Sep 2001 21:37:13 -0600 Hello, the camp: Thank you all for your well worded comments!! I'm almost sorry that I replied to the question on the buckskins in the first place as we seem to have aimed in a totally different direction. Since I am the cause of this, I apologize profusely. I won't comment further on the buckskins question as it has been covered more than adequately. On the dream catcher question, (I'm sorry that this offends some of you, but since it IS a subject of historic authenticity, I didn't think that it was outside the realm of discussion), thank you Linda for the web site address. I haven't been there yet but will. I would alsso like to offer this one for those of you that are interested: www.the7thfire.com/history.htm . This one talks of "At the beginning of the last century" (since Mrs. Densmore was writing in the 20th century, I'll take it for granted that she is writing of the 19th century) that she found early 1800s evidence of the dream catcher (spider webbed as it is supposed to be from the legends that I have heard from the Elders) from the Ojibway culture. In regard to PROVING by physical evidence, that is as difficult for the White culture as it is the American Indian culture, when the object of contention is so easily and quickly deteriorated. That becomes a difficult prove. Do the Whites say since they can't see one that was made before such and such a date that they never existed and are "JUST A FAD" or do we give a little leeway? I'm sure that the religious discussions that have happened since time immemmorial have pondered the same question. It probably boils down to how mush of a hard ass a person wants to be and what their personal prejudices are. I do have a bit of a problem with those that discount oral traditions simpl;y because the folks that practiced them didn't have a written language and had to transmit their heritage and history by word rather than writing it down. Most of us take for granted what we read in the Bible even though most of the authors of the books contained there wrote about things that had been handed down orally before they were written for posterity. If you all are done discussing this subject, that's fine. I didn't mean to cause such an uproar. I have enough EVIDENCE to satisfy what I needed it for, anyway, now. Thank you for allowing me to voice my opinion and for the luxury of reading yours. Respectfully; CallsTheWind ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 Date: 08 Sep 2001 22:57:26 -0500 Dick, The redheaded Mrs Tater made the first one I ever saw about 1981. I might still have the remnants. They were called spider-webs back then and more simply made. Never saw an old one. John... At 12:58 PM 9/8/01 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 9/8/1 3:46:50 AM, kimanjen@wyoming.com writes: > >< >didn't use dream catchers before 1840. >> > >I am looking for evidence that they existed before 1990. Any documentation?? >RJames Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 Date: 09 Sep 2001 00:33:15 -0400 will be somewhere near hilljack and ad millers place and the range---will bring it with me--- hawk On Sat, 08 Sep 2001 22:49:59 -0400 Linda Holley writes: > I was there last time....hope to be there again. > > linda > > hawknest4@juno.com wrote: > > > linda--- > > darling you going to be at the alifi---I still have a unborn > buffilo skin > > here--- > > > > "HAWK" > > Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " > trademark (C) > > 854 Glenfield Dr. > > Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 > > E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: > > http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 Date: 09 Sep 2001 04:37:21 EDT In a message dated 9/8/01 10:08:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time, deforge1@bright.net writes: << Am I being a hardheaded prick again??? D>> again, or still? :) Sorry Dennis, couldn't resist! You're right on the money, though. Barney ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #856 Date: 09 Sep 2001 10:16:27 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: September 08, 2001 10:37 PM > On the dream catcher question, (I'm sorry that this offends some of you, > but since it IS a subject of historic authenticity I would also like to offer > this for those of you that are interested: > www.the7thfire.com/history.htm . This one talks of "At the beginning of the > last century" (since Mrs. Densmore was writing in the 20th century, I'll > take it for granted that she is writing of the 19th century) that she found > early 1800s evidence of the dream catcher (spider webbed as it is supposed > to be from the legends that I have heard from the Elders) from the Ojibway > culture. Frances Densmores studies of Chippewa customs began in the year 1905 and continued until the year 1925. Her book which is referenced by the website you have mentioned was originally published in the year 1929. The website also describes her work and observations as having occured during this time period, not early 19th century. In her extensive disscusion of "charms" used by the Chippewa she does describe a charm that was hung on the cradle board of an infant, however, the webite mis-quotes her comments of the purpose of this object. She states in the book, "Even infants where provided with protective charms. Examples of these are the "spiderwebs" hung on the hoops of cradle boards. These articles (pl. 24, a) consisted of wooden hoops about 3 1/2" in diameter filled with an imitation of a spider web made of a fine yarn usually died red. In old times this netting was made of nettle fiber. Two spider webs were usually hung on the hoop, and it is said that they, "caught any harm that might be in the air as a spider's web catches and holds whatever comes in contact with it". Notice that no mention is made of the purpose of this object being in any way associated with dreams. Mrs. Densmore herself labels if as "a spiderweb charm". The term "dream catcher" is modern. Most likely this "spider web charm" and its purpose has been confused and combined with other charms which were used on an infants cradle board, one of which often was a miniature representation of a dream object. By placing a representation of a dream object on a childs cradle board It was hoped that the child would derive a benefit connected with the nature of a dream. These "dream objects" were carried by most Chippewa due to the great significance that was placed on dreams by the members of this tribe. The book quotes a aged Chippewa as saying that, "In the old days our people had no education. They could not learn from books nor from teachers. All there wisdom and knowledge came to them in dreams.They tested there dreams and in that way learned their own strength." The phenomena of modern day "dream catchers" is a perfect example of why research such as what has been done by Frances Densmore is important. The website you have given describes how "dream catcher earings became popular in the 1970s", and how "many people of other tribes began to make dream catchers". It would appear obvious enough how the purpose of a simple object that had been in use as recently as the beginning of the 20th century by native people in there tribal customs, has evolved into something quite different in construction and use. I would wager that the primay purpose of "dream catchers" these days is for venders at rendezvous who are not concerned with historical accuracy to make a buck. T. Clark ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #856 Date: 09 Sep 2001 15:48:12 +0000 Thanks Kim and Jen, You can not depend on venders to do your research for you. I have personally witnessed traders "authenticating" their trade goods with some of the weirdest yarns you have ever heard. I am a native person from Oklahoma and grew up at Pow-Wows and have seen the evolution of the "Indian culture" through my 40+ years. Like I said in a previous post"What FAD is it going to be next?" I don't like Indians or whites misrepresenting our culture for a buck. New agers aren't just white, and not all natives are as honorable as the american myth would have you believe. Thank you again for a sensible and informative post. Your friend in Ohio, Watch out for the Shamans for hire. Don Secondine >From: "northwoods" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #856 >Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 10:16:27 -0500 > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Kim & Jen" >To: >Sent: September 08, 2001 10:37 PM >Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #856 > > > > On the dream catcher question, (I'm sorry that this offends some of >you, > > but since it IS a subject of historic authenticity I would also like to >offer > > this for those of you that are interested: > > www.the7thfire.com/history.htm . This one talks of "At the beginning of >the > > last century" (since Mrs. Densmore was writing in the 20th century, I'll > > take it for granted that she is writing of the 19th century) that she >found > > early 1800s evidence of the dream catcher (spider webbed as it is >supposed > > to be from the legends that I have heard from the Elders) from the >Ojibway > > culture. > >Frances Densmores studies of Chippewa customs began in the year 1905 and >continued until the year 1925. Her book which is referenced by the website >you have mentioned was originally published in the year 1929. The website >also describes her work and observations as having occured during this time >period, not early 19th century. >In her extensive disscusion of "charms" used by the Chippewa she does >describe a >charm that was hung on the cradle board of an infant, however, the webite >mis-quotes her comments of the purpose of this object. >She states in the book, "Even infants where provided with protective >charms. >Examples of these are the "spiderwebs" hung on the hoops of cradle boards. >These articles (pl. 24, a) consisted of wooden hoops about 3 1/2" in >diameter filled with an imitation of a spider web made of a fine yarn >usually died red. In old times this netting was made of nettle fiber. Two >spider webs were usually hung on the hoop, and it is said that they, >"caught >any harm that might be in the air as a spider's web catches and holds >whatever comes in contact with it". >Notice that no mention is made of the purpose of this object being in any >way associated with dreams. Mrs. Densmore herself labels if as "a spiderweb >charm". >The term "dream catcher" is modern. Most likely this "spider web charm" and >its purpose has been confused and combined with other charms which were >used >on an infants cradle board, one of which often was a miniature >representation of a dream object. By placing a representation of a dream >object on a childs cradle board It was hoped that the child would derive a >benefit connected with the nature of a dream. These "dream objects" were >carried by most Chippewa due to the great significance that was placed on >dreams by the members of this tribe. The book quotes a aged Chippewa as >saying that, "In the old days our people had no education. They could not >learn from books nor from teachers. All there wisdom and knowledge came to >them in dreams.They tested there dreams and in that way learned their own >strength." >The phenomena of modern day "dream catchers" is a perfect example of why >research such as what has been done by Frances Densmore is important. The >website you have given describes how "dream catcher earings became popular >in the 1970s", and how "many people of other tribes began to make dream >catchers". >It would appear obvious enough how the purpose of a simple object that had >been in use as recently as the beginning of the 20th century by native >people in there tribal customs, has evolved into something quite different >in construction and use. I would wager that the primay purpose of "dream >catchers" these days is for venders at rendezvous who are not concerned >with >historical accuracy to make a buck. > >T. Clark > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #856 Date: 09 Sep 2001 15:56:41 +0000 Sorry T. Clark, I thanked the wrong party for this post. But, THANKS to all concerned because the truth eventually comes out if we use our logic instead of emotion to think with. I'll eventually learn how to use this thing,I appreciate everyones patience. Sincerely, Don Secondine >From: "northwoods" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #856 >Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 10:16:27 -0500 > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Kim & Jen" >To: >Sent: September 08, 2001 10:37 PM >Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #856 > > > > On the dream catcher question, (I'm sorry that this offends some of >you, > > but since it IS a subject of historic authenticity I would also like to >offer > > this for those of you that are interested: > > www.the7thfire.com/history.htm . This one talks of "At the beginning of >the > > last century" (since Mrs. Densmore was writing in the 20th century, I'll > > take it for granted that she is writing of the 19th century) that she >found > > early 1800s evidence of the dream catcher (spider webbed as it is >supposed > > to be from the legends that I have heard from the Elders) from the >Ojibway > > culture. > >Frances Densmores studies of Chippewa customs began in the year 1905 and >continued until the year 1925. Her book which is referenced by the website >you have mentioned was originally published in the year 1929. The website >also describes her work and observations as having occured during this time >period, not early 19th century. >In her extensive disscusion of "charms" used by the Chippewa she does >describe a >charm that was hung on the cradle board of an infant, however, the webite >mis-quotes her comments of the purpose of this object. >She states in the book, "Even infants where provided with protective >charms. >Examples of these are the "spiderwebs" hung on the hoops of cradle boards. >These articles (pl. 24, a) consisted of wooden hoops about 3 1/2" in >diameter filled with an imitation of a spider web made of a fine yarn >usually died red. In old times this netting was made of nettle fiber. Two >spider webs were usually hung on the hoop, and it is said that they, >"caught >any harm that might be in the air as a spider's web catches and holds >whatever comes in contact with it". >Notice that no mention is made of the purpose of this object being in any >way associated with dreams. Mrs. Densmore herself labels if as "a spiderweb >charm". >The term "dream catcher" is modern. Most likely this "spider web charm" and >its purpose has been confused and combined with other charms which were >used >on an infants cradle board, one of which often was a miniature >representation of a dream object. By placing a representation of a dream >object on a childs cradle board It was hoped that the child would derive a >benefit connected with the nature of a dream. These "dream objects" were >carried by most Chippewa due to the great significance that was placed on >dreams by the members of this tribe. The book quotes a aged Chippewa as >saying that, "In the old days our people had no education. They could not >learn from books nor from teachers. All there wisdom and knowledge came to >them in dreams.They tested there dreams and in that way learned their own >strength." >The phenomena of modern day "dream catchers" is a perfect example of why >research such as what has been done by Frances Densmore is important. The >website you have given describes how "dream catcher earings became popular >in the 1970s", and how "many people of other tribes began to make dream >catchers". >It would appear obvious enough how the purpose of a simple object that had >been in use as recently as the beginning of the 20th century by native >people in there tribal customs, has evolved into something quite different >in construction and use. I would wager that the primay purpose of "dream >catchers" these days is for venders at rendezvous who are not concerned >with >historical accuracy to make a buck. > >T. Clark > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: Tetons response to: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 Date: 09 Sep 2001 14:16:32 EDT In a message dated 9/8/1 10:30:49 PM, tetontodd@juno.com writes:(about Bridger) << There was one fellow, well known by now, who struts around in an exact chrome tanned duplicate of a pair of Oshkosh bib overalls complete with hammer loop and tool pockets! What is going through his mind!!?? And what about those ten or twelve "Mountain Men" who lined up on the famed bridge wearing nothing but breechcloths, where they all bent over and displayed a sizeable portion of their rear ends to the delight of the photo snapping crowd of ladies.>> You seem to have gotten the same impression - and chuckles - from the Oshkosh mointain man that I did. The boys-on-the-bridge-bunch are another example of people who don't understand why they are being laughed at. One year on Henry's Fork a young buck though he was putting on a show for the wife of a doctor and the nurse with her. They came back to the tipi laughing at what might have been appropriate behavior on their part such as: just pointing and laughing, or saying (sypathetically)Oh-h . . . That's too bad. The open (to the public) rendezvous has many facets besides the wonder and the entertainment you have mentioned. Many people (40,000??!!) wander through there and see some of the "good stuff" for the first time. From this group we harvest a corps of quality buckskinners -- participants who would never has gotten involved were it not for this initial contact. Then there are the ones you have mentioned whom we all hope the rest of the world realizes them to be just what they appear -- something equivalent to not realizing they are in the wrong movie. " . . . good with the bad" Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 Date: 09 Sep 2001 14:25:55 EDT In a message dated 9/8/1 11:07:39 PM, dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com writes: <> Don: I have know a number of Indians - Shoshone, Ojibwa, Tewa . . . who all swear to the early authenticity of dream catchers. All of them have one thing in common -- they SELL dream catchers!. You can talk to them about other elements of their tribal history and lore, and they havn't a clue. A few years back you could buy dream catchers in tourist traps all over the country with a little story attached and the statement that this magical creation was indeed made ( suede leather over a steel ring, laced with artifical sinue) by an Indian. It was true. They were being cranked out in Murray, Utah by a workforce of Indians just off the boat from Calcutta, India. How more Indian can you get?? Sincerely Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 Date: 09 Sep 2001 22:13:08 +0000 He' Richard, Thanks for the chuckle!(LOL) Your friend, Don Secondine >From: SWzypher@aol.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 >Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 14:25:55 EDT > > >In a message dated 9/8/1 11:07:39 PM, dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com writes: > >feel pretty dern silly even writing about this issue. But, this thread >proves what I have been trying to say on other threads. Some of us research >then go with the documentation to be as authentic as possible and learn >about the trade the way it really was, others get a cockamamie idea from >who >knows where, and try to make the documentation fit their fantasy. That >simply is not the way to do research.>> > >Don: I have know a number of Indians - Shoshone, Ojibwa, Tewa . . . who >all >swear to the early authenticity of dream catchers. All of them have one >thing in common -- they SELL dream catchers!. You can talk to them about >other elements of their tribal history and lore, and they havn't a clue. A >few years back you could buy dream catchers in tourist traps all over the >country with a little story attached and the statement that this magical >creation was indeed made ( suede leather over a steel ring, laced with >artifical sinue) by an Indian. It was true. They were being cranked out >in >Murray, Utah by a workforce of Indians just off the boat from Calcutta, >India. How more Indian can you get?? > >Sincerely >Richard James > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: MtMan-List: Translation of phrases from one language to another Date: 09 Sep 2001 17:35:28 -0700 On another list, a member has just shared a link to a web site where you can type or paste a phrase in a foreign language and get a translation to English or whatever other language you desire. I have book marked the page for future use. Here is the URL: http://translator.dictionary.com/fcgi/translate www.dictionary.com is the home site for this particular service. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 Date: 08 Sep 2001 15:36:48 -0600 No Dennis, you're not be hard headed at all...............ha ha "Teton" Todd D. Glover http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Census Date: 09 Sep 2001 19:11:57 -0600 Not long ago Don from the flat lands of Ohio wrote: Whoa! Ol' Hoss, Who do you think the majority of mountain men were from 1803 - 1839? EASTERNERS!!!! The majority of the mountain men were from, mixed blood, or Canadians, according to Ferris 60%. Others (Good to hear from you agian Walt) have speculated even higher. I have often wondered what effect it has on clothing, etc if the average trapper was a half breed who may have ties north instead of a Kentucky frontiersman. Any thoughts? Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gretchen Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Delaware Indians Date: 09 Sep 2001 19:22:37 -0600 In a post not long ago someone asked about referances to Delaware Indians in the fur trade. I went to Deans AMM site and entered Delaware in the search. I go a dozen or so responces including Irvings quote: . The conference ended, Fontenelle sent a Delaware Indian of his party to conduct fifteen of the Blackfeet to the camp of Captain Bonneville. Also, it is my belief for what that is worth that many referances to Iroquois are really not being tribe specific. The Iroquois were a large presense and they were known to adopt other tribes into the league so it would be easy to refer to something like the Iroquois with Peter S Ogden when in fact there were more tribes represented. I can not remember now if the Delaware were in the same lingistic group as the Iroquois but if they are that would make the link even closer. Sorry to be so slow to respond to your inquiry. Wynn Ormond ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 Date: 09 Sep 2001 22:30:28 -0400 Hey Todd.... :^ P!!!!!! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: WAS:after the fact brain-tan? NOW: Sanding Scarf skin Date: 09 Sep 2001 23:26:11 EDT In a message dated 9/7/01 10:37:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rtlahti@msn.com writes: << If it is not stretched wet, dryed and kept flat, it is almost impossible to do an even job or get the sanding medium to work.He will actually end up with more leather than he started with since the epidermus layer has a natural tendency to draw up when dry and stretch out when wet. It also is "bunched" up when dry and not under stress so if you try to sand it off , you only take the high spots and the leather generally tends to "roll" around under the sander which just causes further problems. >> Capt. Lahti, I will take that as sage advice!!!! I have lived not too long but long enough that I ahve learned the wisdom of those who have gone before (even if they be younger in years) can save me a lot of heartache and angst!!! Thanks for the explanation!! -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 Date: 09 Sep 2001 23:41:18 EDT In a message dated 9/9/1 11:14:12 PM, dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com writes: <> Some smile Some are offended I just risk it. Too old to matter. Glad you have such a terrifically well developed sense of humor. Most sincerely your friend Richard James (where do you live, anyway??) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Delaware Indians Date: 10 Sep 2001 03:46:09 +0000 Thanks Wynn for the note, The Delawares or Lenape speak an Algonquin language. The Delawares lived around Westville(present day kansas City) and Lawrence,Ks. from the 1820's to 1867-68. (One of their many stops during the migration west from their homeland along the Delaware River Valley at European contact. I'll check out Dean's site(great site for trade lists, too.) in more detail concerning Delawares. Thanks again, Don Secondine >From: "Gretchen Ormond" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: Hist mail >Subject: MtMan-List: Delaware Indians >Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 19:22:37 -0600 > >In a post not long ago someone asked about referances to Delaware >Indians in the fur trade. I went to Deans AMM site and entered Delaware >in the search. I go a dozen or so responces including Irvings quote: > >. The conference ended, Fontenelle sent a Delaware Indian of his party >to conduct fifteen of the Blackfeet to the camp of Captain Bonneville. > >Also, it is my belief for what that is worth that many referances to >Iroquois are really not being tribe specific. The Iroquois were a large >presense and they were known to adopt other tribes into the league so it >would be easy to refer to something like the Iroquois with Peter S Ogden >when in fact there were more tribes represented. I can not remember >now if the Delaware were in the same lingistic group as the Iroquois but >if they are that would make the link even closer. > >Sorry to be so slow to respond to your inquiry. > >Wynn Ormond > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 Date: 10 Sep 2001 03:59:30 +0000 Howdy Richard James, I'm from Okla. but, now live in the northwest corner of Ohio. The flat as a griddle part of Ohio. It's so flat that when I look west I can see the very top tips of the shiny mountains. Your friend, Don Secondine in the Ohio country >From: SWzypher@aol.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 >Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 23:41:18 EDT > > >In a message dated 9/9/1 11:14:12 PM, dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com writes: > ><Your friend, >Don Secondine>> > >Some smile >Some are offended >I just risk it. >Too old to matter. >Glad you have such a terrifically well developed sense of humor. > >Most sincerely your friend >Richard James >(where do you live, anyway??) > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: WAS:after the fact brain-tan? NOW: Sanding Scarf skin Date: 09 Sep 2001 22:46:42 -0700 C.Kent, Your welcome. And thanks for taking it. Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 8:26 PM skin > In a message dated 9/7/01 10:37:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rtlahti@msn.com > writes: > > << If it is not stretched wet, > dryed and kept flat, it is almost impossible to do an even job or get the > sanding medium to work.He will actually end up with more leather than he > started with since the epidermus layer has a natural tendency to draw up when > dry and stretch out > when wet. It also is "bunched" up when dry and not under stress so if you > try to sand it off , you only take the high spots and the leather generally > tends to "roll" around under the sander which just causes further problems. > >> > Capt. Lahti, > > I will take that as sage advice!!!! I have lived not too long but long > enough that I ahve learned the wisdom of those who have gone before (even if > they be younger in years) can save me a lot of heartache and angst!!! Thanks > for the explanation!! > > -C.Kent > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: what's authentic Date: 10 Sep 2001 08:13:06 -0500 The frequent discussions about authenticity [i.e. 'dream catchers] remind me of experiences my wife and I had when we first started doing r'vous. We lived in Indiana at the time and the Eastern influence was stronger than the RMFT emulators on this list seem to be. At our first attempt to be 'authentic', I was wearing a 'buckskin' outfit my wife had made out of some fabric that looked like leather from a distance. It was ridiculous and very hot. But I wore it because my wife had worked hard making it, including miles of fringe. We had noticed quite a few of the women running around camp wearing only what can best be described as buckskin bikini's. I sure liked the looks of those and suggested to my wife that she make one for herself as she [still] had the figure for it. She did and wore it for a couple years until both she and the outfit changed shapes. (don't tell her I said that). Not once did anyone criticize her as being 'not authentic'. We learned that on our own. As things progressed my wife wanted an indian outfit for herself that was as close to truly representative of the original ways as she could make. We visited a large museum that had (still has) an excellent exhibit of early American indian artifacts. I photographed a dress there from several angles including close-ups of detail in decorations, seams and etc. She then proceeded to make her dress almost exactly like the one in the museum. When finished it was excellent and no doubt very 'authentic'. Wouldn't ye know it........at the very first event we attended with her wearing that dress, a woman recognized as being 'expert' in period indian clothing approaced her and said "the indians didn't do it that way" , referring to the type of stitiching she had used in the seams. My wife had used a method of individual knots along the seam lines just like the original in the museum had. So much for self-appointed camp 'experts'. The bikini was OK, the truly correct dress drew rude criticizm. I am still a stumbler learner in this business but I have learned to turn a deaf ear to the vocal 'experts' and be selective in what I accept as good advice. I'll throw in my theory on that. If someone volunteers advice without being asked, they probably don't know what they are talking about. In fact, more talk, less real knowledge. On the other hand, if someone obviously has put a great deal of thought and research into an outfit you admire and you have to [politely] extract information from that person, chances are he really has done his homework and has the experience to guide you well. This list is fortunate to have several well versed and experienced individuals who share their knowledge and experience. It is, by design, primarily a list of RMFT enthusiasts and has little eastern influence but that information is available elsewhere. Thet's me sermon for the day. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dave and Kristi Landis" Subject: MtMan-List: how to unsubscribe Date: 10 Sep 2001 10:13:47 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C139E1.479A3D80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Can anyone tell me how to unsubscribe? avemaria@polarcomm.com TAHITIAN NONI* Juice! Why drink it? It is the best all-natural, organic, Health remedy in the world! Kristi Landis ID #1207638 701-284-6216 -- avemaria@polarcomm.com check it out at -- www.takenoni.com ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C139E1.479A3D80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C139E1.479A3D80-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: what's authentic Date: 10 Sep 2001 11:16:58 EDT In a message dated 9/10/01 6:16:21 AM, frankf@cox-internet.com writes: << I'll throw in my theory on that. If someone volunteers advice without being asked, they probably don't know what they are talking about. In fact, more talk, less real knowledge. >> Waitaminute....wait-a minute! Capt Lahti knows of what he speaks, and takes great glee in pointing out the error of my ways.....even when I don't ask. .....but I get in a couple shots when I can too..... Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Fort Vancouver Date: 10 Sep 2001 11:42:27 EDT Hallo the List, Fort Vancouver has a "Candlelight Tour" this coming Friday and Saturday, if anyone one is interested and in the area. They attempt to interpret what life would be like at the fort in 1845, and have about 75 costumed re-enactors in and outside the walls. About 5000 people attended the tour last year. Fort Vancouver National Historic Site Home Page I'd be there, but will be camped in the High Cascades with Capt Lahti, and some other boys, terrorizing the deer, bear, grouse, and foraging for huckleberries.... Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: what's authentic Date: 10 Sep 2001 09:38:20 -0700 Magpie, Yea but your a Pilgrim and subject to correction at any given moment. You do catch me out now and then though. I don't mind being wrong and having it pointed out. Hell, that's how I learn that my preconceived notions are off base. And I won't know it nor will you tell me if I don't say what I believe. Right? But frankf@cox-internet.com is more correct than not with his theory that is outlined below. The question is of course, was someone asked? You make a statement to start a thread and you have asked everyone here for their opinion. You ask how to do something and you have asked everyone here for not only information on how to do it but whether you should or not. It's the nature of human communication. You take a divergent stand from what others believe and your gonna get called on it. That's the nature of it. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 8:16 AM > > In a message dated 9/10/01 6:16:21 AM, frankf@cox-internet.com writes: > > << I'll throw in my theory on that. If someone volunteers advice without > > being asked, they probably don't know what they are talking about. In fact, > > more talk, less real knowledge. >> > > Waitaminute....wait-a minute! Capt Lahti knows of what he speaks, and takes > great glee in pointing out the error of my ways.....even when I don't ask. > .....but I get in a couple shots when I can too..... > > Ymos, > Magpie > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fort Vancouver Date: 10 Sep 2001 09:40:58 -0700 > I'd be there, but will be camped in the High Cascades with Capt Lahti, and > some other boys, terrorizing the deer, bear, grouse, and foraging for > huckleberries.... > > Ymos, > Magpie By sun light and moon light since we still can't have any open flame/fire/etc. Pray for rain. (and bring backup) See ya up there! YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 Date: 10 Sep 2001 12:47:22 EDT In a message dated 9/10/1 5:00:20 AM, dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com writes: <> Don. You have good eyes. I remember reading in one of the pioneer journals "Today we can clearly see the Rocky Mountains. We should be at their base by evening. Traveled all day. Mountains seem as distant today as they did yesterday." I guess these bumps show up pretty well from a distance. I live two miles from where they begin on the east edge of the Great Salt Lake Basin (4,400 feet). Two more miles and they will have risen to over 9.000 feet. I am also 8 miles down the Weber River from the spot where Johnston Gardner and the American trappers chased Peter Skene Ogden and his HBC boys out of the territory forever. (Well - they did end up with Fort Hall, but that is about 150 miles north and For Boise which is over 300 miles away). I can also see Fremont island where there is a cross carved in the stone at the highest point by Kit Carson. The other side of the lake is the last range of mountains before the Salt Flats and the Nevada border. Fort Buena Ventura is 12 miles west - Fort Bridger is 106 miles east. And me? . . . I'm not leaving the property all day long. Stuff to do for rendezvous this week end. Wishing you a good 'un Your friend Dick James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: what's authentic Date: 10 Sep 2001 13:09:26 EDT In a message dated 9/10/1 2:16:21 PM, frankf@cox-internet.com writes: << So much for self-appointed camp 'experts'. The bikini was OK, the truly correct dress drew rude criticizm.>> FRANK You have just given us some prime examples of people who knew when to keep their mouth shut and others who did not. Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: what's authentic Date: 10 Sep 2001 13:13:50 -0400 " subject to correction at any given moment." " Cap't. You DO have a "correction" stick, don't you?? D "When I'm feeling down, I like to whistle. It makes the neighbor's dog run to the end of his chain and gag himself." ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: what's authentic Date: 10 Sep 2001 13:30:05 EDT In a message dated 9/10/1 4:17:48 PM, SWcushing@aol.com writes: << If someone volunteers advice without being asked, they probably don't know what they are talking about. In fact, more talk, less real knowledge. >>>> Can't accept that one. Lots of times I see an honest inquisitor stumbling in the dark and I go off line to help him. And I BLOODY WELL know what I am talking about when I do. But - not to put you down. . . I do see a lot of free advise from people who have not yet invented the wheel but want to say something. Kinda like the guy who just caught his first fish going around giving free advise to all other fishermen. AND there is a lot of good stuff volunteered on this site (along with a lot of duplication and silliness). Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fort Vancouver Date: 10 Sep 2001 13:36:41 EDT In a message dated 9/10/1 4:43:27 PM, SWcushing@aol.com writes: <<Fort Vancouver National Historic Site Home Page>> Magpie Great site! Thank you Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: what's authentic Date: 10 Sep 2001 10:54:18 -0700 Yup. Ain't afraid to use it neither! ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 10:13 AM > " subject to correction at any given moment." > > > " > Cap't. > You DO have a "correction" stick, don't you?? > D > > > "When I'm feeling down, I like to whistle. It makes the neighbor's dog run > to the end of his chain and gag himself." > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: what's authentic Date: 10 Sep 2001 11:28:15 -0700 "Wouldn't ye know it........at the very first event we attended with her wearing that dress, a woman recognized as being 'expert' in period indian clothing approaced her and said "the indians didn't do it that way" ," Frank, Same thing happened to my wife a couple three years back. This gal came up to her and without invitation started telling her what was wrong with her (mostly eastern) outfit. My wife listened politely for a moment and then said, "I really don't care. I like it and that's all that matters." And then she walked on about her business. That's about all you can do with such people. They are probably sincere but just don't understand the need for an invitation first. PS. Sounds like my wife's Indian Dress (that I made for her from three braintan hides) tied up the sides rather than sewn. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: A "double 3 point" blanket supplier's website Date: 10 Sep 2001 13:33:40 -0500 I submit this webaddress for your information only, I have no financial or other interest in this outfit. These folks sell a double 3 point blanket .

Website Montana Shepard,s Market, http://www.woolsoft.net/index.htm

Regards

Lee S. Newbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Horse & Gunfire Date: 10 Sep 2001 13:41:31 -0500 Greetings.

I know I've been pretty quiet lately, but now I have a question regarding horses and gunfire.

How have the list members with horses familierize thier mounts and packstock with gunfire? Mine have shown a marked unhappiness with gunshots and I need to fix that.

Been training and work the small Newbill herd for packing... so far, only one minor wreck. Lesson learned... make sure the breakable link in the lead between pack animals is indeed breakable.

Regards from Idaho

Lee Newbill
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horse & Gunfire Date: 10 Sep 2001 17:21:14 EDT In a message dated 9/10/01 4:33:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bluethistle@potlatch.com writes: << How have the list members with horses familierize thier mounts and packstock with gunfire? Mine have shown a marked unhappiness with gunshots and I needto fix that. >> Crooked hand offered a step-be-step to me once that was pretty simple. The horsemen who sw it said it sounded like it would work pretty well. If you asked nicely and offered a couple pounds of good powder he would likely tell you just how to do it . Good luck in hunting horseback! -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 Date: 10 Sep 2001 21:42:50 +0000 Howdy Dick, Sounds like your right in amongst 'em. Don't waste your time wavin' east at me though, wy eyes ain,t that dern good. Must be beautiful there. Hope to see it someday. Your friend, Don Secondine >From: SWzypher@aol.com >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 >Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 12:47:22 EDT > > >In a message dated 9/10/1 5:00:20 AM, dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com writes: > ><very top tips of the shiny mountains. >Your friend,>> > >Don. You have good eyes. I remember reading in one of the pioneer >journals >"Today we can clearly see the Rocky Mountains. We should be at their base >by >evening. Traveled all day. Mountains seem as distant today as they did >yesterday." I guess these bumps show up pretty well from a distance. I >live two miles from where they begin on the east edge of the Great Salt >Lake >Basin (4,400 feet). Two more miles and they will have risen to over 9.000 >feet. I am also 8 miles down the Weber River from the spot where Johnston >Gardner and the American trappers chased Peter Skene Ogden and his HBC boys >out of the territory forever. (Well - they did end up with Fort Hall, but >that is about 150 miles north and For Boise which is over 300 miles away). >I >can also see Fremont island where there is a cross carved in the stone at >the >highest point by Kit Carson. The other side of the lake is the last range >of >mountains before the Salt Flats and the Nevada border. Fort Buena Ventura >is >12 miles west - Fort Bridger is 106 miles east. And me? . . . I'm not >leaving the property all day long. Stuff to do for rendezvous this week >end. >Wishing you a good 'un >Your friend >Dick James > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 Date: 10 Sep 2001 18:05:58 EDT In a message dated 9/10/1 10:44:06 PM, dmdhsecondine@hotmail.com writes: << Must be beautiful there. Hope to see it someday.>> If you do . . . nay, WHEN you do, South Weber is right at the mouth of Weber Canyon. I am the only Richard James in South Weber. Let me know as I am always good for beans and bed. Meanwhile we are left here to envy what you have in Ohio country by way of history, old used "things" (a la swapmeet), hardwood - maple, osage orange, walnut, hickory, cane, oak . . . and museum content. The man who taught me to make brooms lives in Germantown - talks about the sasafras and other stuff there and down into Kentucky. I do hope to visit there one day following this plan: I can fly anywhere Southwest flies for free but thanks to my first wife I have no money to do stuff with after I get anywhere. Part 2: I do do trading at rendezvous (I started them all) and could turn up enough money to get some wood and whatever other plunder . . . . Part 3: I have a friend from the Boise area who is always going back east to pick up school busses and deliver them in Idaho. He drives right past the back of my property on the way home (my land goes north to( I-84) and has offered me a ride home.and "hauling" any time he goes back there. To Execute: Line up some wood and plunder, fly to Ohio to take posession, link up with Gary to load up, and then ride on west to unload. What is that? about 1400 miles? You just may want to ride out here with us for a day or two. Let me know if I can help you with anything in your historic pursuit. Your Friend RJ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A "double 3 point" blanket supplier's website Date: 10 Sep 2001 18:12:44 -0400 Hey, thanks. That is a great web site. Linda Holley Lee Newbill wrote: > I submit this webaddress for your information only, I have no > financial or other interest in this outfit. These folks sell a > double 3 point blanket . > > Website Montana Shepard,s Market, http://www.woolsoft.net/index.htm > > Regards > > Lee S. Newbill ---------------------- hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horse & Gunfire Date: 10 Sep 2001 22:15:48 +0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_7092_43de_47c9 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Howdy Lee, I've had good results with starting with a pan full of powder and working up in small increments of powder as the horse gets used to the smell and noise gradually. If at any time during the process the horse gets nervous or stressed, back off a little. Dismountes at first holding him close with a lead. Let him smell it while telling him how good he is. Calm and slow will pay off. He gets to realize that the smell and noise ain't going to hurt him soon enough, if it indeed doesn't hurt. Patience pays off. Good luck and let us know how things go, Don Secondine >From: Lee Newbill >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: Horse & Gunfire >Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 13:41:31 -0500 > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------=_NextPart_000_7092_43de_47c9 Content-Type: message/rfc822 From owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com Mon, 10 Sep 2001 13:34:32 -0700 Received: from [198.60.22.7] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id MHotMailBD666E8200B740042A22C63C16078FF00; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 13:33:07 -0700 Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #2) id 15gXjn-000148-00 for hist_text-gooutt@lists.xmission.com; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 14:32:59 -0600 Received: from [207.141.26.9] (helo=whale.fsr.net ident=root) by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 15gXjk-00013R-00 for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 14:32:56 -0600 Received: from potlatch.com (pppl206.moscow.com [199.245.242.206]) by whale.fsr.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA60080 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 13:32:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bluethistle@potlatch.com) Message-ID: <3B9D095B.4020602@potlatch.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20010131 Netscape6/6.01 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3B9D0784.4060303@potlatch.com> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Greetings.

I know I've been pretty quiet lately, but now I have a question regarding horses and gunfire.

How have the list members with horses familierize thier mounts and packstock with gunfire? Mine have shown a marked unhappiness with gunshots and I need to fix that.

Been training and work the small Newbill herd for packing... so far, only one minor wreck. Lesson learned... make sure the breakable link in the lead between pack animals is indeed breakable.

Regards from Idaho

Lee Newbill
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------=_NextPart_000_7092_43de_47c9-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ellen Gossett Subject: MtMan-List: over nite muzzleloader Date: 10 Sep 2001 18:20:30 -0400 This is a ques for hunters or those who keep a charge in their guns over nite or longer.After hunting if nothing is shot most folks ( I know) discharge it and wipe it then load it the next morning a fresh. Anybody do different.GJG ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: what's authentic Date: 10 Sep 2001 18:24:37 -0400 Actually, on one part of that note there may have been another reason no one said much about the "bikinis". THE VIEW WAS TOO GOOD TO SAY ANYTHING!!!! Found that to be the main prime problem about the "skimpy" clothing. Most events do not say anything if it is made of "fur, feathers, leather or beads". And most do not know better. As for the lady, that does happen. I no longer will judge women's' Indian outfits because they get real mad when the Bushways' wife with the turquoise moccasins, furry anklets, red leather dress, ermine skins galore in the hair, and Farah facet (sp) hair dew....don't win. It wasn't' correct in Dances With Wolves and it is still not correct. And the others don't like hearing it from the judge either, on what is wrong with their clothing. So for the shoe on the other foot, don't ask if you don't want to know and don't get your feelings hurt because you did. Linda Holley SWzypher@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/10/1 2:16:21 PM, frankf@cox-internet.com writes: > > << So much for self-appointed camp 'experts'. The bikini was OK, the truly > > correct dress drew rude criticizm.>> > > FRANK > You have just given us some prime examples of people who knew when to keep > their mouth shut and others who did not. > Richard James > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: what's authentic Date: 10 Sep 2001 18:31:36 EDT In a message dated 9/10/1 11:23:53 PM, tipis@mediaone.net writes: <> Bingo (again) Linda. I once judged a contest where the two obvious top contenders were dressed almost identically. One was very pretty with lots of long black locks. The other was common, heavier and had a mole on her lower cheek with hairs growing out of it. Footwear. The little beauty had moccasin-looking slippers on with token Hong-Kong beadwork. The other gal was barefoot. I had an immediate vision of Edwin Tunis illustrations for his book "Colonial Living" with a barefoot gal and a pipe. Hairy mole ober allus! Cheers Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: over nite muzzleloader Date: 10 Sep 2001 22:46:32 +0000 Hi Ellen, It gets pretty damp here in the Great Lakes area but when it is not expedient to pull a load I have had real good luck using a small feather quill stuffed into the touch hole after dumping the priming and cleaning and drying the pan to cut down on the attraction of moisture and condensation. Also, a ball of beeswax about the same caliber of your rifle, dropped down the bore and smashed out flat with your wiping stick will seal the load from any moisture coming down the bore. Good luck on your hunt, I hope you get a 32 pointer, Don Secondine >From: Ellen Gossett >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: "hist_text@lists.xmission.com" >Subject: MtMan-List: over nite muzzleloader >Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 18:20:30 -0400 > >This is a ques for hunters or those who keep a charge in their guns over >nite or longer.After hunting if nothing is shot most folks ( I know) >discharge it and wipe it then load it the next morning a fresh. Anybody >do different.GJG > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ellen Gossett Subject: Re: MtMan-List: over nite muzzleloader Date: 10 Sep 2001 19:39:07 -0400 Thanks I guess I shoulda signed it .Gentleman James Gossett(Ellens worse half) darlene secondine wrote: > Hi Ellen, It gets pretty damp here in the Great Lakes area but when it is > not expedient to pull a load I have had real good luck using a small feather > quill stuffed into the touch hole after dumping the priming and cleaning and > drying the pan to cut down on the attraction of moisture and condensation. > Also, a ball of beeswax about the same caliber of your rifle, dropped down > the bore and smashed out flat with your wiping stick will seal the load from > any moisture coming down the bore. > Good luck on your hunt, I hope you get a 32 pointer, > Don Secondine > > >From: Ellen Gossett > >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >To: "hist_text@lists.xmission.com" > >Subject: MtMan-List: over nite muzzleloader > >Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 18:20:30 -0400 > > > >This is a ques for hunters or those who keep a charge in their guns over > >nite or longer.After hunting if nothing is shot most folks ( I know) > >discharge it and wipe it then load it the next morning a fresh. Anybody > >do different.GJG > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: over nite muzzleloader Date: 10 Sep 2001 23:46:54 +0000 Yep, I'm Darlene's worst half,too. Don >From: Ellen Gossett >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: over nite muzzleloader >Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 19:39:07 -0400 > >Thanks I guess I shoulda signed it .Gentleman James Gossett(Ellens worse >half) >darlene secondine wrote: > > > Hi Ellen, It gets pretty damp here in the Great Lakes area but when it >is > > not expedient to pull a load I have had real good luck using a small >feather > > quill stuffed into the touch hole after dumping the priming and cleaning >and > > drying the pan to cut down on the attraction of moisture and >condensation. > > Also, a ball of beeswax about the same caliber of your rifle, dropped >down > > the bore and smashed out flat with your wiping stick will seal the load >from > > any moisture coming down the bore. > > Good luck on your hunt, I hope you get a 32 pointer, > > Don Secondine > > > > >From: Ellen Gossett > > >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > >To: "hist_text@lists.xmission.com" > > >Subject: MtMan-List: over nite muzzleloader > > >Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 18:20:30 -0400 > > > > > >This is a ques for hunters or those who keep a charge in their guns >over > > >nite or longer.After hunting if nothing is shot most folks ( I know) > > >discharge it and wipe it then load it the next morning a fresh. Anybody > > >do different.GJG > > > > > > > > >---------------------- > > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Fw: MtMan-List: how to unsubscribe Date: 10 Sep 2001 18:51:44 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0075_01C13A29.A2D012E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@xmission.com, where the body of = the message consists of unsubscribe hist_text your_email_address. or unsubscribe hist_text-digest your_email_address. depending on which version you are subscribed to.=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 10:13 AM Can anyone tell me how to unsubscribe? avemaria@polarcomm.com TAHITIAN NONI* Juice! Why drink it? It is the best all-natural, organic, Health remedy in the world! Kristi Landis ID #1207638 701-284-6216 -- avemaria@polarcomm.com check it out at -- www.takenoni.com ------=_NextPart_000_0075_01C13A29.A2D012E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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----- Original Message -----=20

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Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 10:13 AM

Subject: MtMan-List: how to unsubscribe

Can anyone tell me how to unsubscribe?

avemaria@polarcomm.com

------=_NextPart_000_0075_01C13A29.A2D012E0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #854 Date: 10 Sep 2001 17:56:23 -0600 Cheers Brudder Dennis......... "Teton" Todd D. Glover http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: what's authentic Date: 10 Sep 2001 20:08:37 -0500 Magpie said, He sends me stuff too. But I am on this list and that is asking for input. Frank Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: what's authentic Date: 10 Sep 2001 21:57:19 EDT In a message dated 9/10/01 3:32:51 PM, SWzypher@aol.com writes: << The little beauty had moccasin-looking slippers on with token Hong-Kong beadwork. The other gal was barefoot. I had an immediate vision of Edwin Tunis illustrations for his book "Colonial Living" with a barefoot gal and a pipe. Hairy mole ober allus! >> Come on boys.....all them wimmins gotta do is look good! Dressed in "air" is OK wid me... and them leather thongs....hell, as long as they're brain tan, they're welcome in my camp! Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: what's authentic Date: 10 Sep 2001 22:32:47 EDT In a message dated 9/10/01 6:20:05 PM, frankf@cox-internet.com writes: << He sends me stuff too. But I am on this list and that is asking for input. >> Haaaaaa.....and he does give good input! .. The Great Capt Lahti is, and has been, my "mentor", and probably the main reason I'm a pilgrim in the AMM. We've shared many camp fires, hunts, and jugs of rum together, and he's given me the direction I needed to do it right.... I love you...man... Seriously... I couldn't ask for a better guide, friend, brother, and a finer Mountaineer you'd be hard to fine. I remain.. Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: what's authentic Date: 10 Sep 2001 22:44:52 EDT In a message dated 9/11/1 2:58:30 AM, SWcushing@aol.com writes: <> Magpie you would take them if they were brain-dead . . . brain tan be damned. What I was judging is what is right - not what I like. Besides her husband was right there........ RJames ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horse & Gunfire Date: 10 Sep 2001 22:54:38 EDT In a message dated 9/10/01 1:33:48 PM, bluethistle@potlatch.com writes: <> Hallo Lee, I don't know jack about horses, but watched Doc and the UMO boys ride into camp at Nationals just as Badger set off the canon.... The lead rider saw it coming, and started a turn to the right as the canon went off. His horse went down to his knees, spun around, leaped up, crashed into a few more horses, wild stuff and I figured they'd all be dead when it was over. Anyway, when the smoke cleared, every mountaineer was still on his (and her) horse, and laughing! Finest display of "ridein" I'd ever seen... So, I guess all ya gotta do is learn how to stay on top when shootin.... Ymos, Magpie ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: what's authentic Date: 10 Sep 2001 22:57:57 EDT In a message dated 9/10/01 7:45:41 PM, SWzypher@aol.com writes: << Magpie you would take them if they were brain-dead . . . brain tan be damned. >> Grin.... ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: over nite muzzleloader Date: 10 Sep 2001 20:21:03 -0700 Anybody > do different.GJG GJG, Yes, the rest of us. I and most of my companions (very experienced ml hunters and woods men of the first order) do not unload our guns at night unless we feel they have gotten wet or are otherwise compromised. Then we shoot the load out or pull the load (which is the better way as it doesn't dirty the bore) and wipe it out good with a damp patch and then some grease/oil (we use natural oils like bear grease and olive oil, etc. no synthetics and no petroleum products ever touch our bores. No soap is used in the cleaning either. Seems to work fine as I don't recall the last time in 30 some years of hunting that I have had the charge fail to go nor have I ever had any rust problems. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 3:20 PM > This is a ques for hunters or those who keep a charge in their guns over > nite or longer.After hunting if nothing is shot most folks ( I know) > discharge it and wipe it then load it the next morning a fresh. Anybody > do different.GJG > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: over nite muzzleloader Date: 10 Sep 2001 23:30:28 -0500 Thank you Capt'n I couldn't agree more. Concise and to the point. John... At 08:21 PM 9/10/01 -0700, you wrote: >Anybody > > do different.GJG > > >GJG, > >Yes, the rest of us. > >I and most of my companions (very experienced ml hunters and woods men of >the first order) do not unload our guns at night unless we feel they have >gotten wet or are otherwise compromised. Then we shoot the load out or pull >the load (which is the better way as it doesn't dirty the bore) and wipe it >out good with a damp patch and then some grease/oil (we use natural oils >like bear grease and olive oil, etc. no synthetics and no petroleum products >ever touch our bores. No soap is used in the cleaning either. Seems to work >fine as I don't recall the last time in 30 some years of hunting that I have >had the charge fail to go nor have I ever had any rust problems. > >YMOS >Capt. Lahti' If it ain't exactly right, it's wrong. john ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott McMahon Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horse & Gunfire Date: 11 Sep 2001 05:53:43 -0700 (PDT) ------=_Part_7844_1519977.1000212823882 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mr. Newbill, I'm not an old hand around horses but I do have some experience training animals for 1830's/40's reenactments and this is how I handle it...I start with either a 22 or caps off of a revolver, I shoot these around the horse on the ground for awhile-then I mount and shoot off the horse for awhile. After they get used to this I move up to actual loads in my Paterson until they seem okay with this. After that is done I move up to my flint horse pistol and get them used to the smoke. I think it's just a gradual process that some horses work faster with than others! As far as cannons go I have a blm mare that loves cannons, at events she loves to get as close as possible while the guns are blazing!? Who knows! I also train them for lances and sabres basically with the same process...just a gradual familiarization with the weapons. Hope this helps...glad to finally see someone with an interest in horses on this list! Dios, Libertad y Tejas, Cpt. Scott McMahon S.W. Frontiers Mntd Ranging Co _______________________________________________________ http://inbox.excite.com ------=_Part_7844_1519977.1000212823882 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="MtMan-List: Horse & Gunfire" Return-Path: Received: from lists.xmission.com ([198.60.22.7]) by mrpib.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP id <20010910203254.DQDE22403.mrpib.excite.com@lists.xmission.com>; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 13:32:54 -0700 Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #2) id 15gXjn-000148-00 for hist_text-gooutt@lists.xmission.com; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 14:32:59 -0600 Received: from [207.141.26.9] (helo=whale.fsr.net ident=root) by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 15gXjk-00013R-00 for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 14:32:56 -0600 Received: from potlatch.com (pppl206.moscow.com [199.245.242.206]) by whale.fsr.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA60080 for ; Mon, 10 Sep 2001 13:32:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bluethistle@potlatch.com) Message-ID: <3B9D095B.4020602@potlatch.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; m18) Gecko/20010131 Netscape6/6.01 X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3B9D0784.4060303@potlatch.com> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Greetings.

I know I've been pretty quiet lately, but now I have a question regarding horses and gunfire.

How have the list members with horses familierize thier mounts and packstock with gunfire? Mine have shown a marked unhappiness with gunshots and I need to fix that.

Been training and work the small Newbill herd for packing... so far, only one minor wreck. Lesson learned... make sure the breakable link in the lead between pack animals is indeed breakable.

Regards from Idaho

Lee Newbill
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------=_Part_7844_1519977.1000212823882-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: overnite muzzle loader Date: 11 Sep 2001 08:02:40 -0500 Ellen, as you pointed out, opinions vary on this issue. But you asked how others do it. With the rifle I have been using for many years, prior to the first day of the hunting season. I would completely clean the barrel, even if it was already clean. Then I would degrease it well, sometimes using carburetor cleaner. When dry I would load with my hunting charge and a competition size ball. Meaning in the .45, my load would be with a .445 ball. The patch would be some type of natural grease, not oil. Subsequent shots would be reloaded with .440 balls for quicker and easier fit down a dirty barrel. After the load I would lightly coat the inside of the barrel with preservative oil. If no shot presented themselves all season, that is the way it stayed. I never had a problem. Of course, safety always being a primary consideration, never forget that your rifle is always charged. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: over nite muzzleloader Date: 11 Sep 2001 09:58:56 -0700 Thank you John. Capt. L ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 9:30 PM > Thank you Capt'n I couldn't agree more. > > Concise and to the point. > > John... > > At 08:21 PM 9/10/01 -0700, you wrote: > >Anybody > > > do different.GJG > > > > > >GJG, > > > >Yes, the rest of us. > > > >I and most of my companions (very experienced ml hunters and woods men of > >the first order) do not unload our guns at night unless we feel they have > >gotten wet or are otherwise compromised. Then we shoot the load out or pull > >the load (which is the better way as it doesn't dirty the bore) and wipe it > >out good with a damp patch and then some grease/oil (we use natural oils > >like bear grease and olive oil, etc. no synthetics and no petroleum products > >ever touch our bores. No soap is used in the cleaning either. Seems to work > >fine as I don't recall the last time in 30 some years of hunting that I have > >had the charge fail to go nor have I ever had any rust problems. > > > >YMOS > >Capt. Lahti' > > If it ain't exactly right, it's wrong. > john > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ellen Gossett Subject: Re: MtMan-List: over nite muzzleloader Date: 11 Sep 2001 16:53:49 -0400 thanks . Jim rtlahti wrote: > Anybody > > do different.GJG > > GJG, > > Yes, the rest of us. > > I and most of my companions (very experienced ml hunters and woods men of > the first order) do not unload our guns at night unless we feel they have > gotten wet or are otherwise compromised. Then we shoot the load out or pull > the load (which is the better way as it doesn't dirty the bore) and wipe it > out good with a damp patch and then some grease/oil (we use natural oils > like bear grease and olive oil, etc. no synthetics and no petroleum products > ever touch our bores. No soap is used in the cleaning either. Seems to work > fine as I don't recall the last time in 30 some years of hunting that I have > had the charge fail to go nor have I ever had any rust problems. > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ellen Gossett > To: > Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 3:20 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: over nite muzzleloader > > > This is a ques for hunters or those who keep a charge in their guns over > > nite or longer.After hunting if nothing is shot most folks ( I know) > > discharge it and wipe it then load it the next morning a fresh. Anybody > > do different.GJG > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Off Topic.....WTC thoughts Date: 11 Sep 2001 20:28:48 -0500 We put up a 13 star American flag at my house today......and not at half staff. I'll mourn later. If those devils think we're gonna run scared they're as wrong as Japan was 60 years ago. What Yamamoto said then is hopefully true today...."We have awakened a sleeping giant". May the Lord take the innocent dead to His bosom this night and may He have mercy on the souls of the guilty who hopefully will come before Him very soon. Lanney Ratcliff ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: MtMan-List: Blessing Date: 12 Sep 2001 01:48:55 +0000 Dear Friends, My hope and prayer is that God continues to unify and bless us as Americans. GOD BLESS AMERICA, THE LAND THAT I LOVE! Join with me in prayer for the American families that were torn by the vicious and cowardly act of aggression today. Your friend and fellow American, Don Secondine _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Daniel L. Smith" Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Delaware Indians Date: 11 Sep 2001 20:05:03 -0600

You guys want a little more information on the Lenape (Delaware) Indians, here's what Buck had on one of his pages, when talking about a family member that was of such breeding. Concho. The Lennie-Lenape & Our Connection At one time the Lenape (Delawares), formed a confederacy, the most important of the Algonquian stock, consisting of the Munsee, Unami, and Unalachtigo divisions, speaking different dialects and occupying the basin of the Delaware river in eastern Pennsylvania and southeastern New York, and also most of New Jersey and Delaware. According to tribal tradition the Delawares had a common origin with the Nanticoke, Conoy, Shawnee, and Mahican. When they made their first treaty with William Penn in 1682 their council fire was at Shackamaxon, about the present Germantown, Pennsylvania. One of their great chiefs at this period was Tamanend, from whom the Tammany Society takes its name. In 1720 the Iroquois assumed dominion over them. This condition lasted until about the opening of the French and Indian War. Encroachments by the whites forced them across the mountains; by 1742 the main body located on the Susquehanna, at Wyoming and other points. By 1760 owing to Iroquois pressure and by invitation of the Hurons they commenced to form settlements in eastern Ohio, and in a short time the grater part of the Delawares, together with the Munsee (often referred to as distinct) and Mahican, had become established on the Muskingum and other streams of that region. Being now within reach of the French and supported by the western tribes, the Delawares were enabled to cast off the Iroquois yoke, and up to the treaty of Greenville to come in 1795 they were the most determined opponents of the advancing whites. By permission of the Miami and Piankashaw, about 1770, they settled in the country between the Ohio and White rivers in Indiana, and with the sanction of the Spanish Government in 1789 a part of them, together with some Shawnee, moved to Missouri and later to Arkansas. By 1820 the two bands had found their way to Texas, where at that time the Delawares numbered about 700. By 1835 most of the tribe had been gathered on a reservation in Kansas, whence they were removed in 1867 to Indian Territory (Oklahoma) and incorporated with the Cherokee Nation. Another band is affiliated with the Caddo and Wichita in Western Oklahoma, and in addition there are a few scattered remnants in the Untied States and several hundred in Canada where they are known as Delawares, Munsee, and Moravians. After many years of investigation it has been narrowed down that John Westley Connor's wife's mother (a 1/2 Native American) was probably of the Lennie-Lenape tribe because of words and sign found in a family Bible, and a letter written that she had been carried by her mother from eastern Ohio in early winter back to family in Harrisburg Pennsylvania after getting away from her capturers in Nov. 1856, making E. Helen Thomas - her daughter, a breed of 1/2 white and 1/2 Lenape heritage. ---- Begin Original Message ---- Thanks Wynn for the note, The Delawares or Lenape speak an Algonquin language. The Delawares lived around Westville(present day kansas City) andLawrence,Ks. from the 1820's to 1867-68. (One of their many stops during the migration west from their homeland along the Delaware River Valley at European contact. I'll check out Dean's site(great site for trade lists, too.) in more detail concerning Delawares. Thanks again, Don Secondine -------------------- >In a post not long go someone asked about referances to Delaware Indians in the fur trade. I went to Deans AMM site and entered Delware in the search. I go a dozen or so responces including Irvings quote: > >. The conference ended, Fontenelle sent a Delaware Indian of his party to conduct fifteen of the Blackfeet to the camp of Captain Bonneville. > >Also, it is my belief for what that is worth that many referances to Iroquois are really not being tribe specific. The Iroquois were a large presense and they were known to adopt other tribes into the league so it would be easy to refer to something like the Iroquois with Peter S Ogden when in fact there were more tribes represented. I can not remember now if the Delaware were in the same lingistic group as the Iroquois but if they are that would make the link even closer. > >Sorry to be so slow to respond to your inquiry. > >Wynn Ormond ---- End Original Message ----

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---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Off Topic.....WTC thoughts Date: 11 Sep 2001 22:20:45 -0400 This day is what all those years of "understanding and nurturing" gets you... If you oppose this opinion , keep it to your damned self.. You WON'T like my answer. I can guarentee it. D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Delaware Indians Date: 12 Sep 2001 02:23:05 +0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_1574_4f43_4275 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Thanks Daniel, For responding to my post. Speaking of Buck, where is Buck at and is he well or just out galivantin'? Haven't heard from him in a while. I looked over his website and enjoyed it. Also, I went to the Mountain Man website and looked for "Delaware" in search tools and found some new stuff I had not seen before. I didn't know, for instance, that Tom Tobin was half Delaware. Thanks again guys, for the tip. Your friend, Don Secondine >From: "Daniel L. Smith" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Delaware Indians >Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:05:03 -0600 > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------=_NextPart_000_1574_4f43_4275 Content-Type: message/rfc822 From owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com Tue, 11 Sep 2001 19:04:57 -0700 Received: from [198.60.22.7] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id MHotMailBD680DB800B54004325BC63C16078D430; Tue, 11 Sep 2001 19:04:42 -0700 Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 2.12 #2) id 15gzO9-0001Ih-00 for hist_text-gooutt@lists.xmission.com; Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:04:29 -0600 Received: from [216.163.180.10] (helo=c0mailgw13.prontomail.com) by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 15gzO7-0001Ic-00 for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:04:27 -0600 Received: from c0web107 (216.163.180.10) by c0mailgw13.prontomail.com (NPlex 5.5.029) id 3B9EA497000036A8 for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Tue, 11 Sep 2001 18:57:08 -0700 X-Version: about 6.0.2393.0 Message-Id: X-Priority: Normal Content-Type: text/html X-Mailer: Web Based Pronto Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com

You guys want a little more information on the Lenape (Delaware) Indians, here's what Buck had on one of his pages, when talking about a family member that was of such breeding. Concho. The Lennie-Lenape & Our Connection At one time the Lenape (Delawares), formed a confederacy, the most important of the Algonquian stock, consisting of the Munsee, Unami, and Unalachtigo divisions, speaking different dialects and occupying the basin of the Delaware river in eastern Pennsylvania and southeastern New York, and also most of New Jersey and Delaware. According to tribal tradition the Delawares had a common origin with the Nanticoke, Conoy, Shawnee, and Mahican. When they made their first treaty with William Penn in 1682 their council fire was at Shackamaxon, about the present Germantown, Pennsylvania. One of their great chiefs at this period was Tamanend, from whom the Tammany Society takes its name. In 1720 the Iroquois assumed dominion over them. This condition lasted until about the opening of the French and Indian War. Encroachments by the whites forced them across the mountains; by 1742 the main body located on the Susquehanna, at Wyoming and other points. By 1760 owing to Iroquois pressure and by invitation of the Hurons they commenced to form settlements in eastern Ohio, and in a short time the grater part of the Delawares, together with the Munsee (often referred to as distinct) and Mahican, had become established on the Muskingum and other streams of that region. Being now within reach of the French and supported by the western tribes, the Delawares were enabled to cast off the Iroquois yoke, and up to the treaty of Greenville to come in 1795 they were the most determined opponents of the advancing whites. By permission of the Miami and Piankashaw, about 1770, they settled in the country between the Ohio and White rivers in Indiana, and with the sanction of the Spanish Government in 1789 a part of them, together with some Shawnee, moved to Missouri and later to Arkansas. By 1820 the two bands had found their way to Texas, where at that time the Delawares numbered about 700. By 1835 most of the tribe had been gathered on a reservation in Kansas, whence they were removed in 1867 to Indian Territory (Oklahoma) and incorporated with the Cherokee Nation. Another band is affiliated with the Caddo and Wichita in Western Oklahoma, and in addition there are a few scattered remnants in the Untied States and several hundred in Canada where they are known as Delawares, Munsee, and Moravians. After many years of investigation it has been narrowed down that John Westley Connor's wife's mother (a 1/2 Native American) was probably of the Lennie-Lenape tribe because of words and sign found in a family Bible, and a letter written that she had been carried by her mother from eastern Ohio in early winter back to family in Harrisburg Pennsylvania after getting away from her capturers in Nov. 1856, making E. Helen Thomas - her daughter, a breed of 1/2 white and 1/2 Lenape heritage. ---- Begin Original Message ---- Thanks Wynn for the note, The Delawares or Lenape speak an Algonquin language. The Delawares lived around Westville(present day kansas City) andLawrence,Ks. from the 1820's to 1867-68. (One of their many stops during the migration west from their homeland along the Delaware River Valley at European contact. I'll check out Dean's site(great site for trade lists, too.) in more detail concerning Delawares. Thanks again, Don Secondine -------------------- >In a post not long go someone asked about referances to Delaware Indians in the fur trade. I went to Deans AMM site and entered Delware in the search. I go a dozen or so responces including Irvings quote: > >. The conference ended, Fontenelle sent a Delaware Indian of his party to conduct fifteen of the Blackfeet to the camp of Captain Bonneville. > >Also, it is my belief for what that is worth that many referances to Iroquois are really not being tribe specific. The Iroquois were a large presense and they were known to adopt other tribes into the league so it would be easy to refer to something like the Iroquois with Peter S Ogden when in fact there were more tribes represented. I can not remember now if the Delaware were in the same lingistic group as the Iroquois but if they are that would make the link even closer. > >Sorry to be so slow to respond to your inquiry. > >Wynn Ormond ---- End Original Message ----

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---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------=_NextPart_000_1574_4f43_4275-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: George Noe Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Off Topic.....WTC thoughts Date: 11 Sep 2001 19:33:32 -0700 (PDT) AMEN !!!! --- Double Edge Forge wrote: > This day is what all those years of "understanding > and nurturing" gets > you... > If you oppose this opinion , keep it to your damned > self.. You WON'T like my > answer. I can guarentee it. > > D > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Off Topic.....WTC thoughts Date: 11 Sep 2001 22:56:15 EDT In a message dated 9/11/01 10:34:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gnoe39@yahoo.com writes: << AMEN !!!! --- Double Edge Forge wrote: > This day is what all those years of "understanding > and nurturing" gets > you... >> The people who gave their lives on the airliners and helping in the aftermath are PATRIOTS!! They have given their lives on the most heinous attack on american soil. Dang right that "what's good for you is OK - I don't want to offend you, so go ahead!" crap gets you!!!!! Japan feared they had wakened a sleeping giant. I desparately hope that we do not prove to be a comatose giant! If this list is any indication, we are still peopled with enough people who refuse to be bullied and who refuse to accept limitations and impositions on the reasonable, hard-won freedom that our forefathers won for us!!! My heart is small for those who have died and those who have lost. My face is black against those who would do such a thing. What do we do now? What do we do now? -C.Kent, who still loves America and believes in her resiliency! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (Jon Marinetti) Subject: MtMan-List: Horses & Gunfire Date: 12 Sep 2001 00:04:48 -0400 (EDT) Very interesting. Is some of the concussion dissipated thru her large nostrils and larger bone structure of their head, compared to humans? A large animal vet's explanation would be much appreciated here, if not too off topic (I was with horse from 80-87). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Off Topic.....WTC thoughts Date: 12 Sep 2001 03:16:45 EDT To Lanney and D and others, I couldn't agree more. My heart was sickened today as I watched in horror. My gut reaction from early on this morning was that this Osama bin Laden was responsible When I was a kid, my dad had this big ol' paddle that would fit perfect across 3 little butts. When he couldn't find out who had done wrong, He lined all 3 of us over the couch and swung for the bleachers. He made sure he got the guilty party. Boys and girls...It's time to get out the big paddle again!!!!. God bless us all and May God bless George W with the resolve to do what needs to be done. PS Years ago, a friend of mine had a good solution for all of those Middle eastern "hot spots." He said "NUKE IT AND PAVE IT!! MAKE A PARKING LOT OUT OF IT!" Hmmmm not a bad idea... a new airstrip would be nice over there. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ Sleeps Loudly ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "De Santis, Nick" Subject: MtMan-List: WTC Date: 12 Sep 2001 03:17:03 -0700 All, We are attacked. This phrase hits me to my very core. Normally I read on this list as it is my passion to learn and live the ways of our older brothers who new and lived the truth of what it is to be a man and be free. I have a new passion: It is time to count coup on our enemies and show them what honor is. Travler ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "northwoods" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Off Topic.....WTC thoughts Date: 12 Sep 2001 07:22:53 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- ; "scalpdance" Cc: "Mary Tallent" ; "Danney & Kathy Ratcliff" ; "Tammy Ratcliff" ; "Marsha Shumate" Sent: September 11, 2001 9:20 PM > This day is what all those years of "understanding and nurturing" gets > you... > If you oppose this opinion , keep it to your damned self.. You WON'T like my > answer. I can guarentee it. > > D I have been off this list for a year and upon resubscribing for the last week or so am surprised to see Dennis that you are even more of a loud mouthed bully than you used to be. You use much more profanity these days. Congratulations to you for expanding your horizons. T. Clark ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Delaware Indians Date: 12 Sep 2001 06:32:14 -0600 --------------B37356BCBDBC4477F81DDBA2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Don, A new book is out on Tom Tobin by James Perkins. Very good! "Tom Tobin, Frontiersman" In it he says Tom's mother Sarah Tissman, was a freed colored, her husband was french. While the book spans much more than the fur trade, it is very inlightening on a individual who helped shape the west. The books has lots of references and good locations and descriptions. mike. darlene secondine wrote: > Also, I went to the Mountain Man website > and looked for "Delaware" in search tools and found some new stuff I > had not > seen before. I didn't know, for instance, that Tom Tobin was half > Delaware. > Thanks again guys, for the tip. > Your friend, > Don Secondine > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Delaware Indians > Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:05:03 -0600 > From: "Daniel L. Smith" > Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > You guys want a little more information on the > Lenape (Delaware) Indians, here's what Buck had > on one of his pages, when talking about a family > member that was of such breeding. > > Concho. > > ----------------------------------------------- > The Lennie-Lenape & Our Connection > > At one time the Lenape (Delawares), formed a > confederacy, the most important of the Algonquian > stock, consisting of the Munsee, Unami, and > Unalachtigo divisions, speaking different > dialects and occupying the basin of the Delaware > river in eastern Pennsylvania and southeastern > New York, and also most of New Jersey and > Delaware. According to tribal tradition the > Delawares had a common origin with the Nanticoke, > Conoy, Shawnee, and Mahican. > > When they made their first treaty with William > Penn in 1682 their council fire was at > Shackamaxon, about the present Germantown, > Pennsylvania. One of their great chiefs at this > period was Tamanend, from whom the Tammany > Society takes its name. In 1720 the Iroquois > assumed dominion over them. This condition lasted > until about the opening of the French and Indian > War. Encroachments by the whites forced them > across the mountains; by 1742 the main body > located on the Susquehanna, at Wyoming and other > points. > > By 1760 owing to Iroquois pressure and by > invitation of the Hurons they commenced to form > settlements in eastern Ohio, and in a short time > the grater part of the Delawares, together with > the Munsee (often referred to as distinct) and > Mahican, had become established on the Muskingum > and other streams of that region. Being now > within reach of the French and supported by the > western tribes, the Delawares were enabled to > cast off the Iroquois yoke, and up to the treaty > of Greenville to come in 1795 they were the most > determined opponents of the advancing whites. > > By permission of the Miami and Piankashaw, about > 1770, they settled in the country between the > Ohio and White rivers in Indiana, and with the > sanction of the Spanish Government in 1789 a part > of them, together with some Shawnee, moved to > Missouri and later to Arkansas. > > By 1820 the two bands had found their way to > Texas, where at that time the Delawares numbered > about 700. > > By 1835 most of the tribe had been gathered on a > reservation in Kansas, whence they were removed > in 1867 to Indian Territory (Oklahoma) and > incorporated with the Cherokee Nation. Another > band is affiliated with the Caddo and Wichita in > Western Oklahoma, and in addition there are a few > scattered remnants in the Untied States and > several hundred in Canada where they are known as > Delawares, Munsee, and Moravians. > > After many years of investigation it has been > narrowed down that John Westley Connor's wife's > mother (a 1/2 Native American) was probably of > the Lennie-Lenape tribe because of words and sign > found in a family Bible, and a letter written > that she had been carried by her mother from > eastern Ohio in early winter back to family in > Harrisburg Pennsylvania after getting away from > her capturers in Nov. 1856, making E. Helen > Thomas - her daughter, a breed of 1/2 white and > 1/2 Lenape heritage. > > ----------------------------------------------- > ---- Begin Original Message ---- > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Delaware Indians > Thanks Wynn for the note, > The Delawares or Lenape speak an Algonquin > language. The Delawares lived around > Westville(present day kansas City) > andLawrence,Ks. from the 1820's to 1867-68. (One > of their many stops during the migration west > from their homeland along the Delaware River > Valley at European contact. I'll check out > Dean's site(great site for trade lists, too.) in > more detail concerning Delawares. > Thanks again, > Don Secondine > > -------------------- > >In a post not long go someone asked about > referances to Delaware Indians in the fur trade. > I went to Deans AMM site and entered Delware in > the search. I go a dozen or so responces > including Irvings quote: > > > >. The conference ended, Fontenelle sent a > Delaware Indian of his party to conduct fifteen > of the Blackfeet to the camp of Captain > Bonneville. > > > >Also, it is my belief for what that is worth > that many referances to Iroquois are really not > being tribe specific. The Iroquois were a large > presense and they were known to adopt other > tribes into the league so it would be easy to > refer to something like the Iroquois with Peter S > Ogden when in fact there were more tribes > represented. I can not remember now if the > Delaware were in the same lingistic group as the > Iroquois but if they are that would make the link > even closer. > > > >Sorry to be so slow to respond to your inquiry. > > > >Wynn Ormond > > ---- End Original Message ---- > > > > > > > > > > > Sign up for a free About Email account at > http://About.com > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html --------------B37356BCBDBC4477F81DDBA2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Don,
A new book is out on Tom Tobin by James Perkins. Very good!
"Tom Tobin, Frontiersman" In it he says Tom's mother Sarah Tissman,
was a freed colored, her husband was french. While the book spans
much more than the fur trade, it is very inlightening on a individual who
helped shape the west. The books has lots of references and good locations
and descriptions.
mike.

darlene secondine wrote:

Also, I went to the Mountain Man website 
and looked for "Delaware" in search tools and found some new stuff I had not 
seen before. I didn't know, for instance, that Tom Tobin was half Delaware. 
Thanks again guys, for the tip.
Your friend,
Don Secondine




_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Delaware Indians
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:05:03 -0600
From: "Daniel L. Smith" <dlsmith@about.com>
Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com

You guys want a little more information on the
Lenape (Delaware) Indians, here's what Buck had
on one of his pages, when talking about a family
member that was of such breeding.
Concho.
-----------------------------------------------
The Lennie-Lenape & Our Connection
At one time the Lenape (Delawares), formed a
confederacy, the most important of the Algonquian
stock, consisting of the Munsee, Unami, and
Unalachtigo divisions, speaking different
dialects and occupying the basin of the Delaware
river in eastern Pennsylvania and southeastern
New York, and also most of New Jersey and
Delaware. According to tribal tradition the
Delawares had a common origin with the Nanticoke,
Conoy, Shawnee, and Mahican.
When they made their first treaty with William
Penn in 1682 their council fire was at
Shackamaxon, about the present Germantown,
Pennsylvania. One of their great chiefs at this
period was Tamanend, from whom the Tammany
Society takes its name. In 1720 the Iroquois
assumed dominion over them. This condition lasted
until about the opening of the French and Indian
War. Encroachments by the whites forced them
across the mountains; by 1742 the main body
located on the Susquehanna, at Wyoming and other
points.
By 1760 owing to Iroquois pressure and by
invitation of the Hurons they commenced to form
settlements in eastern Ohio, and in a short time
the grater part of the Delawares, together with
the Munsee (often referred to as distinct) and
Mahican, had become established on the Muskingum
and other streams of that region. Being now
within reach of the French and supported by the
western tribes, the Delawares were enabled to
cast off the Iroquois yoke, and up to the treaty
of Greenville to come in 1795 they were the most
determined opponents of the advancing whites.
By permission of the Miami and Piankashaw, about
1770, they settled in the country between the
Ohio and White rivers in Indiana, and with the
sanction of the Spanish Government in 1789 a part
of them, together with some Shawnee, moved to
Missouri and later to Arkansas.
By 1820 the two bands had found their way to
Texas, where at that time the Delawares numbered
about 700.
By 1835 most of the tribe had been gathered on a
reservation in Kansas, whence they were removed
in 1867 to Indian Territory (Oklahoma) and
incorporated with the Cherokee Nation. Another
band is affiliated with the Caddo and Wichita in
Western Oklahoma, and in addition there are a few
scattered remnants in the Untied States and
several hundred in Canada where they are known as
Delawares, Munsee, and Moravians.
After many years of investigation it has been
narrowed down that John Westley Connor's wife's
mother (a 1/2 Native American) was probably of
the Lennie-Lenape tribe because of words and sign
found in a family Bible, and a letter written
that she had been carried by her mother from
eastern Ohio in early winter back to family in
Harrisburg Pennsylvania after getting away from
her capturers in Nov. 1856, making E. Helen
Thomas - her daughter, a breed of 1/2 white and
1/2 Lenape heritage.
-----------------------------------------------
---- Begin Original Message ----
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Delaware Indians
Thanks Wynn for the note,
The Delawares or Lenape speak an Algonquin
language. The Delawares lived around
Westville(present day kansas City)
andLawrence,Ks. from the 1820's to 1867-68. (One
of their many stops during the migration west
from their homeland along the Delaware River
Valley at European contact. I'll check out
Dean's site(great site for trade lists, too.) in
more detail concerning Delawares.
Thanks again,
Don Secondine
--------------------
>In a post not long go someone asked about
referances to Delaware Indians in the fur trade.
I went to Deans AMM site and entered Delware in
the search. I go a dozen or so responces
including Irvings quote:
>
>. The conference ended, Fontenelle sent a
Delaware Indian of his party to conduct fifteen
of the Blackfeet to the camp of Captain Bonneville.
>
>Also, it is my belief for what that is worth
that many referances to Iroquois are really not
being tribe specific. The Iroquois were a large
presense and they were known to adopt other
tribes into the league so it would be easy to
refer to something like the Iroquois with Peter S
Ogden when in fact there were more tribes
represented. I can not remember now if the
Delaware were in the same lingistic group as the
Iroquois but if they are that would make the link
even closer.
>
>Sorry to be so slow to respond to your inquiry.
>
>Wynn Ormond
---- End Original Message ----

Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com

---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

--------------B37356BCBDBC4477F81DDBA2-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott McMahon Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horses & Gunfire Date: 12 Sep 2001 05:43:56 -0700 (PDT) On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 00:04:48 -0400 (EDT), hist_text@lists.xmission.com wrote: Very interesting. Is some of the concussion dissipated thru her large nostrils and larger bone structure of their head, compared to humans? A large animal vet's explanation would be much appreciated here, if not too off topic (I was with horse from 80-87). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Michigan, Never thought of it in such a scientific way before! All I know is that of all the horses I've ridden she's the only one who likes cannon fire...she also likes being around large fires??? Like I said, Who Knows! Dios, Libertad y Tejas, Cpt. Scott McMahon S.W. Frontiers Mntd Ranging Co _______________________________________________________ http://inbox.excite.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Off Topic.....WTC thoughts Date: 12 Sep 2001 08:44:26 -0400 Well T. Clark. Go elsewhere. D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Off Topic.....WTC thoughts Date: 12 Sep 2001 08:52:39 -0400 Mr. Clark, Before you leave, allow me to give you a personal invite to the shop to see if you can talk to a fella in person the way you do on the list. Probably not. But I can and I think we could have a rather lively discussion. The address is 335 N Main St. New Madison Ohio, my # (so you can call to be sure I am home) is 937-996-0201. Now put up or shut up. Now back to our regular programming folks.. I am heading for the range for awhile. D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tom roberts Subject: Re:MtMan-List:Off Topic...WTC thoughts Date: 12 Sep 2001 09:51:13 -0400 Mr. Clark, Perhaps you have just emerged from a cave and are unaware of the vicious and cowardly attack on our beloved country yesterday. Otherwise, there can be no rational explanation for your insult aimed at Mr. Miles. Patriots everywhere are rightfully enraged (a term grossly inadequate to fully portray the total feeling) and if you do not share this passion then perhaps you may have rejoined the wrong list and will likely be most uncomfortable here. My place of employment is closed and barricaded today, leaving me here to gaze out at Old Glory now flying from my entry. It is not at half-staff, or upside down, as some have suggested. It has not flown in quite some time but it now waves tall & proud. Words have not been created to describe what I feel at this moment. Vengeance belongs only to God, so I believe, but we will be the implementers of justice and the world will not forget the lesson we teach. If we do it correctly, no one will ever dare do something like this again. Need a visual? Picture the fool who pokes a grizzly bear with a stick. T. Roberts northwoods wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Double Edge Forge" > To: ; "History List" > ; "scalpdance" > Cc: "Mary Tallent" ; "Danney & Kathy Ratcliff" > ; "Tammy Ratcliff" ; "Marsha > Shumate" > Sent: September 11, 2001 9:20 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Off Topic.....WTC thoughts > > > This day is what all those years of "understanding and nurturing" gets > > you... > > If you oppose this opinion , keep it to your damned self.. You WON'T like > my > > answer. I can guarentee it. > > > > D > > I have been off this list for a year and upon resubscribing for the last > week or so am surprised to see Dennis that you are even more of a loud > mouthed bully than you used to be. You use much more profanity these days. > Congratulations to you for expanding your horizons. > > T. Clark > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Funk" Subject: MtMan-List: A Prayer for our Country Date: 12 Sep 2001 08:14:03 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0050_01C13B62.E28B5360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable GENTLEMAN, This is a time for coming together, in solidarity, NOT perpetuating = division. I leave you with: Dear Heavenly Father, We are deeply moved by the alarming news and crisis that our beloved = country is facing. This, our great nation, was founded in the belief that "In God We Trust" = and the "Land of the Free". Please comfort those who are suffering loss = of loved ones, hurting and in fear, and give wisdom and strength to = those who are assisting. May the forces of evil be broken by Your power and may we humble before = Thee, our strength and refuge. Give wisdom to our President and our leaders and bring Your comforting = peace through the power of Your Holy Spirit. Help us to share the loss = of those who have been affected by this tragedy. We ask this in the name of our Lord and Savior, Christ Jesus. - - AMEN Please send this to all your friends and create a prayer chain = throughout this nation, and please fly your flag for the next several = days. ------=_NextPart_000_0050_01C13B62.E28B5360 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

GENTLEMAN,

This is a time for coming together, in solidarity, NOT perpetuating = division.

I leave you with:

Dear Heavenly Father,

We are deeply moved by the alarming news and crisis that our beloved = country=20 is facing.

This, our great nation, was founded in the belief that "In God = We=20 Trust" and the "Land of the Free". Please comfort those who = are=20 suffering loss of loved ones, hurting and in fear, and give = wisdom and=20 strength to those who are assisting.

May the forces of evil be broken by Your power and may we humble = before Thee,=20 our strength and refuge.

Give wisdom to our President and our leaders and bring Your = comforting=20 peace through the power of Your Holy Spirit. Help us to share the = loss of=20 those who have been affected by this tragedy.

We ask this in the name of our Lord and Savior, Christ Jesus. - - = AMEN

Please send this to all your friends and create a prayer chain = throughout=20 this nation, and please fly your flag for the next several = days.

------=_NextPart_000_0050_01C13B62.E28B5360-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Off Topic...WTC thoughts Date: 12 Sep 2001 15:39:51 EDT In a message dated 9/12/01 9:51:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, troberts@gdi.net writes: < week or so am surprised to see Dennis that you are even more of a loud > mouthed bully than you used to be. You use much more profanity these days. > Congratulations to you for expanding your horizons. > > T. Clark >> Mr. Clark, Where do you live? How many friends have you lost? Some on this list have lost people they love dearly. Were you frantic yesterday trying to locate a friend who works in the west portion of the Pentagon? Where the crap is your soul, man? Or are you just one of those who is blessed by saying the worng thing at just the wrong time? If so, then just shut your trap!!!!! My country was attacked in a heinous, disgusting attack of violence and hate!!! Of coure I and others are mad....cussing mad! So shut up or put up! If you cannot see the gravity of the situation just back the heck off and try not to look like any more of a disinterested fool than you already have. Feel free to respond to me offline. -C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John & Nancy McKee" Subject: MtMan-List:Off Topic...WTC Date: 12 Sep 2001 14:58:36 -0500 Today is a day to mourn our enormous loss, hug our loved ones [even the ones that sometimes get on our nerves] and count our many blessings. Bless America and every single American in it. Long John #1677 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re:MtMan-List:Off Topic...WTC thoughts Date: 12 Sep 2001 21:48:53 +0000 Howdy Tom, I respect just about everything you say, and agree. Especially what you say about striking back for the sake of justice, not revenge. My hope is that our leaders do what is necessary to make America safe for my grandchildren. It sounds to me that you are one of the cooler heads that have spoken out on this topic as was Mr. Kent. I can't speak for him, but the way I read his message was a rebuke of juvenile behaviour, not patriotism or outrage at what took place yesterday. Saddened but hopeful, Don Secondine >From: tom roberts >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re:MtMan-List:Off Topic...WTC thoughts >Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 09:51:13 -0400 > >Mr. Clark, > >Perhaps you have just emerged from a cave and are unaware of >the vicious and cowardly attack on our beloved country yesterday. >Otherwise, there can be no rational explanation for your insult aimed >at Mr. Miles. Patriots everywhere are rightfully enraged (a term >grossly inadequate to fully portray the total feeling) and if >you do not share this passion then perhaps you may have rejoined the >wrong list and will likely be most uncomfortable here. My place of >employment is closed and barricaded today, leaving me here to gaze >out at Old Glory now flying from my entry. It is not at half-staff, >or upside down, as some have suggested. It has not flown in quite >some time but it now waves tall & proud. Words have not been created >to describe what I feel at this moment. Vengeance belongs only to God, >so I believe, but we will be the implementers of justice and the world >will not forget the lesson we teach. If we do it correctly, no one >will ever dare do something like this again. Need a visual? Picture >the fool who pokes a grizzly bear with a stick. > >T. Roberts > > >northwoods wrote: > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Double Edge Forge" > > To: ; "History List" > > ; "scalpdance" > > Cc: "Mary Tallent" ; "Danney & Kathy Ratcliff" > > ; "Tammy Ratcliff" ; >"Marsha > > Shumate" > > Sent: September 11, 2001 9:20 PM > > Subject: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Off Topic.....WTC thoughts > > > > > This day is what all those years of "understanding and nurturing" >gets > > > you... > > > If you oppose this opinion , keep it to your damned self.. You WON'T >like > > my > > > answer. I can guarentee it. > > > > > > D > > > > I have been off this list for a year and upon resubscribing for the last > > week or so am surprised to see Dennis that you are even more of a loud > > mouthed bully than you used to be. You use much more profanity these >days. > > Congratulations to you for expanding your horizons. > > > > T. Clark > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: A Prayer for our Country Date: 12 Sep 2001 21:52:22 +0000 Yes John, In Jesus name, Amen and so be it. Don Secondine >From: "John Funk" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: MtMan-List: A Prayer for our Country >Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 08:14:03 -0700 > > >GENTLEMAN, >This is a time for coming together, in solidarity, NOT perpetuating >division. >I leave you with: > > > >Dear Heavenly Father, > >We are deeply moved by the alarming news and crisis that our beloved >country is facing. > >This, our great nation, was founded in the belief that "In God We Trust" >and the "Land of the Free". Please comfort those who are suffering loss of >loved ones, hurting and in fear, and give wisdom and strength to those who >are assisting. > >May the forces of evil be broken by Your power and may we humble before >Thee, our strength and refuge. > >Give wisdom to our President and our leaders and bring Your comforting >peace through the power of Your Holy Spirit. Help us to share the loss of >those who have been affected by this tragedy. > >We ask this in the name of our Lord and Savior, Christ Jesus. - - AMEN > >Please send this to all your friends and create a prayer chain throughout >this nation, and please fly your flag for the next several days. > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Delaware Indians Date: 12 Sep 2001 22:10:00 +0000 Thanks Mike, I'll try to find the book. Wow, what do you do when you find conflicting documentation? Yep, interesting to say the least. Happy journey to ya, Don Secondine >From: Mike Moore >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Delaware Indians >Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 06:32:14 -0600 > >Don, > A new book is out on Tom Tobin by James Perkins. Very good! >"Tom Tobin, Frontiersman" In it he says Tom's mother Sarah Tissman, >was a freed colored, her husband was french. While the book spans >much more than the fur trade, it is very inlightening on a individual >who >helped shape the west. The books has lots of references and good >locations >and descriptions. > mike. > > >darlene secondine wrote: > > > Also, I went to the Mountain Man website > > and looked for "Delaware" in search tools and found some new stuff I > > had not > > seen before. I didn't know, for instance, that Tom Tobin was half > > Delaware. > > Thanks again guys, for the tip. > > Your friend, > > Don Secondine > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Delaware Indians > > Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 20:05:03 -0600 > > From: "Daniel L. Smith" > > Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > > > You guys want a little more information on the > > Lenape (Delaware) Indians, here's what Buck had > > on one of his pages, when talking about a family > > member that was of such breeding. > > > > Concho. > > > > ----------------------------------------------- > > The Lennie-Lenape & Our Connection > > > > At one time the Lenape (Delawares), formed a > > confederacy, the most important of the Algonquian > > stock, consisting of the Munsee, Unami, and > > Unalachtigo divisions, speaking different > > dialects and occupying the basin of the Delaware > > river in eastern Pennsylvania and southeastern > > New York, and also most of New Jersey and > > Delaware. According to tribal tradition the > > Delawares had a common origin with the Nanticoke, > > Conoy, Shawnee, and Mahican. > > > > When they made their first treaty with William > > Penn in 1682 their council fire was at > > Shackamaxon, about the present Germantown, > > Pennsylvania. One of their great chiefs at this > > period was Tamanend, from whom the Tammany > > Society takes its name. In 1720 the Iroquois > > assumed dominion over them. This condition lasted > > until about the opening of the French and Indian > > War. Encroachments by the whites forced them > > across the mountains; by 1742 the main body > > located on the Susquehanna, at Wyoming and other > > points. > > > > By 1760 owing to Iroquois pressure and by > > invitation of the Hurons they commenced to form > > settlements in eastern Ohio, and in a short time > > the grater part of the Delawares, together with > > the Munsee (often referred to as distinct) and > > Mahican, had become established on the Muskingum > > and other streams of that region. Being now > > within reach of the French and supported by the > > western tribes, the Delawares were enabled to > > cast off the Iroquois yoke, and up to the treaty > > of Greenville to come in 1795 they were the most > > determined opponents of the advancing whites. > > > > By permission of the Miami and Piankashaw, about > > 1770, they settled in the country between the > > Ohio and White rivers in Indiana, and with the > > sanction of the Spanish Government in 1789 a part > > of them, together with some Shawnee, moved to > > Missouri and later to Arkansas. > > > > By 1820 the two bands had found their way to > > Texas, where at that time the Delawares numbered > > about 700. > > > > By 1835 most of the tribe had been gathered on a > > reservation in Kansas, whence they were removed > > in 1867 to Indian Territory (Oklahoma) and > > incorporated with the Cherokee Nation. Another > > band is affiliated with the Caddo and Wichita in > > Western Oklahoma, and in addition there are a few > > scattered remnants in the Untied States and > > several hundred in Canada where they are known as > > Delawares, Munsee, and Moravians. > > > > After many years of investigation it has been > > narrowed down that John Westley Connor's wife's > > mother (a 1/2 Native American) was probably of > > the Lennie-Lenape tribe because of words and sign > > found in a family Bible, and a letter written > > that she had been carried by her mother from > > eastern Ohio in early winter back to family in > > Harrisburg Pennsylvania after getting away from > > her capturers in Nov. 1856, making E. Helen > > Thomas - her daughter, a breed of 1/2 white and > > 1/2 Lenape heritage. > > > > ----------------------------------------------- > > ---- Begin Original Message ---- > > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Delaware Indians > > Thanks Wynn for the note, > > The Delawares or Lenape speak an Algonquin > > language. The Delawares lived around > > Westville(present day kansas City) > > andLawrence,Ks. from the 1820's to 1867-68. (One > > of their many stops during the migration west > > from their homeland along the Delaware River > > Valley at European contact. I'll check out > > Dean's site(great site for trade lists, too.) in > > more detail concerning Delawares. > > Thanks again, > > Don Secondine > > > > -------------------- > > >In a post not long go someone asked about > > referances to Delaware Indians in the fur trade. > > I went to Deans AMM site and entered Delware in > > the search. I go a dozen or so responces > > including Irvings quote: > > > > > >. The conference ended, Fontenelle sent a > > Delaware Indian of his party to conduct fifteen > > of the Blackfeet to the camp of Captain > > Bonneville. > > > > > >Also, it is my belief for what that is worth > > that many referances to Iroquois are really not > > being tribe specific. The Iroquois were a large > > presense and they were known to adopt other > > tribes into the league so it would be easy to > > refer to something like the Iroquois with Peter S > > Ogden when in fact there were more tribes > > represented. I can not remember now if the > > Delaware were in the same lingistic group as the > > Iroquois but if they are that would make the link > > even closer. > > > > > >Sorry to be so slow to respond to your inquiry. > > > > > >Wynn Ormond > > > > ---- End Original Message ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sign up for a free About Email account at > > http://About.com > > > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: MtMan-List: .....WTC thoughts Date: 12 Sep 2001 17:33:26 -0700 Dennis Miles wrote : This day is what all those years of "understanding and nurturing" gets you... >>Dennis, you are exactly right ! Not so many years ago, the people of the U.S. were respected by most, and feared by the rest. Unfortunately, we have become a softer, gentler, warm and fuzzy society steeped in P.C. BULLSHIT ! Our children are no longer taught history. Most of them have no clue what happened on December 7, 1941. They have never heard of places like Seoul or Saigon. They have no idea what took place between the years of 1861 and 1865. In other words, they have no idea of the meaning of the word PATRIOTISM. Folks, I'm not just talking about HighSchool or College kids here. I'm talking about 25 to 40 year old working adults, who have all the answers, but don't know what the question is ! Do all of our young folks fall into the category I just described ? No, but sadly most do. "Freedom has a flavor that the protected never know." I fear our young folks have been protected from the harsh reallity of what it takes to remain Free, for too long ! Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Off Topic.....WTC thoughts Date: 12 Sep 2001 17:38:24 -0700 I have been off this list for a year and upon resubscribing for the last week or so am surprised to see Dennis that you are even more of a loud mouthed bully than you used to be. You use much more profanity these days. Congratulations to you for expanding your horizons. T. Clark >>Mr. Clark, Go play in the traffic ! Or COME TO TEXAS ! I ain't hard to find ! We cha ah yeh - E ne che key pee sh'nee yell o Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega Subject: MtMan-List: Recent Verbal squabbles Date: 12 Sep 2001 16:09:05 -0700 (PDT) Come now,Mr Clark is not going to contact anyone personally, or show up at anyones home, so don't even offer it. I must commend this list for the civility everyone generally exhibits.Only when everyone is on edge because of a national tragedy have I seen this list degenerate into name calling and saber rattling. (I'm not talkin about the comments made about terrorists,just responses to those making a post) A certain other list has many problems with this sort of response to stupid posts and incindiary comments, and I don't want to see this list degenerate every time some fool types out a comment intended to piss someone off. Just ignore fools, for they are not worthy of your scorn. Now if I thought someone was making an ass of themselves in their posts, I certainly would not give my address and phone number and say "come get some" That is inviting more aggravation than the original post could possibly have given. End of subject. Young and I know what happened between 1861-1865. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: palmer@netdor.com (Palmer Schatell) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: WTC Date: 11 Sep 2001 01:35:02 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 5:17 AM > > It is time to count coup on our enemies and show them what honor is. > Sir: With all due respect, to slap an enemy with an open hand proves ones bravery but does not get the job done. This is the time to put a fine edge on one's scalping knife. What I would really like to see is a detachment of my old outfit Airborne Rangers or those not so gentle men in the green face paint and bring out Osama bin Laden's head to be mounted on a pike in front of the U.N. building as an object lesson to the less than civilized. Palmer (trescoupes) honestly earned, Schatell > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Recent Verbal squabbles Date: 12 Sep 2001 20:04:51 -0400 "I certainly would not give my address and phone number and say "come get some" That is inviting more aggravation than the original post could possibly have given." Chris, My name address & such is on the website.Pretty much public. And folks are welcome to visit the shop, if they call first and I invite them..I just figure some people need more help than others than finding me. Especially when I WANT them to come visit.. But I have found that most that bluster, hold a superior attitude and degrade others when they feel "safe" behind a keyboard are yellow cowards face to face. D "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Knives and Iron Accouterments http://www.bright.net/~deforge1 "Knowing how is just the beginning." ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TerryTwoBear@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Off Topic.....WTC thoughts Date: 12 Sep 2001 20:25:38 EDT MR clark. BYE YOU clown Two Bear ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: MtMan-List: Book Date: 12 Sep 2001 20:37:56 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C13BCA.CDD1DD00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Got a real good book at the library this evening. called "THe Forgotten = Arts & Crafts" by John Seymour Covers everything from making a saddle to brewing beer. Not real heavy, = technical reading, but allot of 19thC Pics and line drawings.. D ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C13BCA.CDD1DD00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Got a real good book at the library = this evening.=20 called "THe Forgotten Arts & Crafts" by John Seymour

Covers everything from making a = saddle to=20 brewing beer. Not real heavy, technical reading, but allot of 19thC Pics = and=20 line drawings..

------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C13BCA.CDD1DD00-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JSeminerio@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: WTC Date: 12 Sep 2001 20:55:00 EDT --part1_bc.19f128a1.28d15de4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey Guys John in NYC here. Yesterday was a helluva day. I am running in the local city council race. We stopped on our way to give out cookies at a polling place and could see the smoke billowing out of the WTC, about 10 miles away. The smoke looked like dunderheads in the western horizon. In fact they are still smoking. The haze protects us out in Queens from seeing the gap in the skyline. The elections in the whole state have been canceled until further notice. But life goes on. Tomorrow the subways will be packed. I'll be stumping at one. Getting on with ourselves is what we do. My Democratic Club did have one casualty my friend Gabe's wife. She worked at WTC, we don't know what floor, her company had many. Gabe's been in the City, we haven't heard from him, there's no word on her. Please keep us in your prayers, Gabe especially Thanks John --part1_bc.19f128a1.28d15de4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey Guys

John in NYC here. Yesterday was a helluva day. I am running in the local
city council race. We stopped on our way to give out cookies at a polling
place and could see the smoke billowing out of the WTC, about 10 miles away.
The smoke looked like dunderheads in the western horizon. In fact they are
still smoking. The haze protects us out in Queens from seeing the gap in the
skyline.

The elections in the whole state have been canceled until further notice.
But life goes on. Tomorrow the subways will be packed. I'll be stumping at
one. Getting on with ourselves is what we do.

My Democratic Club did have one casualty my friend Gabe's wife. She worked
at WTC, we don't know what floor, her company had many. Gabe's been in the
City, we haven't heard from him, there's no word on her.

Please keep us in your prayers, Gabe especially

Thanks
John --part1_bc.19f128a1.28d15de4_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Recent Verbal squabbles Date: 12 Sep 2001 20:52:34 -0700 Chris Sega, We cha ah yeh - E ne che key pee sh'nee yell o Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Recent Verbal squabbles Date: 13 Sep 2001 01:51:40 +0000 Friends of the Lists, Their is an estimated 30,000 fellow Americans murdered. Is this squabbling really that important? Let's put this thread to rest. Don Secondine >From: "larry pendleton" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Recent Verbal squabbles >Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 20:52:34 -0700 > >Chris Sega, > >We cha ah yeh - E ne che key pee sh'nee yell o > > >Pendleton > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Recent Verbal squabbles Date: 12 Sep 2001 21:55:15 -0400 Secondine, Do you even know that LP said?? Just curious... D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Recent Verbal squabbles Date: 13 Sep 2001 02:02:37 +0000 D, Not exactly since it has been awhile since I saw Dances with Wolves, please clue me in. I don't have the time to watch the movie tonight, and I am not familiar with the Dakota tongue. Don Secondine >From: "Double Edge Forge" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Recent Verbal squabbles >Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:55:15 -0400 > >Secondine, > Do you even know that LP said?? Just curious... >D > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott McMahon Subject: Re:MtMan-List:Off Topic...WTC thoughts Date: 12 Sep 2001 19:05:51 -0700 (PDT) > > If you oppose this opinion , keep it to your damned self.. You WON'T like my answer. I can guarentee it. Members of the List, I hate to say anything but I guess I will...First off I don't think there is ANYONE in the WORLD who hasn't heard of this cowardly attack on the innocent civilians of our great country! I don't think ANYONE on this list is disinterested in this horrible chain of events nor do I think ANYONE on this list disagrees that this happened because of America's past policies dealing with this sort of thing...I may be wrong but I don't think I am. I feel like a swift, vengeful counter-attack on those who we KNOW perpetrated this is strongly called for! I am young (25) and do know and understand patriotism...I am a Texan as well as an American. My grandfather fought so that my father, my family and future family would be free from the threat of the Nazi terror and I have many friends whom I think very highly of who have fought in wars since to protect America from various other threats. I understand our EARLY(both American and Texan) history and how we fought as Americans and Texans to gain freedom from tyrants abroad as well as tyrants from within(American Revolution, War of 1812, Texas Revolution and the Mexican War). One of the things that makes America such a great nation is our FREEDOM...and we have many freedoms that are non-existent elsewhere in the world. ONE of our many freedoms is free speech(and here comes the kicker)...that means that one may speak out an opinion that others may not like! YES..I can say something that someone else may not like, BUT that doesn't mean I can voice my opinion and then say...but if you don't like it shut up cause that's the way it is! We ALL share these freedoms and we ALL have the right to voice our opinions! Reread the qoute at the top of this post...does this sound like the voice of a great, FREE country such as America?! I don't know any involved in this immmature verbal bashing but would expect that they could be a bit more civil about the whole matter. YES we as Americans are experiencing something VERY tragic but that does NOT give anyone the right to act or behave as they are on this list. No, I haven't lost anyone in this tragedy, and no I'm not indifferent to what is going on but I am trying to act CIVILIZED(a word that is being used alot right now) and keep a cool head about myself. I would hope that everyone here could do the same. We as a group should have a special bond being that we are all interested in the same things(obvious by our subscription to this list) and should as some have said come together in light of recent happenings! I do honestly apologize if I personally have offended any on this list with this post but I tire of this immature bickering amongst people who share a love and vision of the history of our great country...God be with those victims of this tragedy and God bless America! Dios, Libertad y Tejas, Cpt. Scott McMahon S.W. Frontiers Mntd Ranging Co _______________________________________________________ http://inbox.excite.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Scott McMahon Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Recent Verbal squabbles Date: 12 Sep 2001 19:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Do you even know that LP said?? Just curious... D D, I don't understand...why don't you please enlighten those of us not blessed with the understanding of certain native tongues... Dios, Libertad y Tejas, Cpt. Scott McMahon S.W. Frontiers Mntd Ranging Co _______________________________________________________ http://inbox.excite.com ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Funk" Subject: MtMan-List: A new time....a NEW Counrty Date: 12 Sep 2001 19:11:45 -0700 Gentleman....... I submit: We live in a ..New country, a ..New time...... We are no longer the free living, free thinking landed "patriots" that our predecessors strove for and envisioned... We are now influenced and moved by those global entities that would both internally and externally control us with their collective and individual will. We cannot, we will, submit to their will ! We are a free people, in which liberty, freedom and justice WILL prevail..... If we seek to capture the past.......then let us bring it to the forefront..... ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Delaware Indians Date: 12 Sep 2001 21:14:19 -0500 A long time ago I enjoyed: "The Indians of New Jersey" "Dickon among the Lenapes" a 1966 reprint of a 1938 first printing. by M.R. Harrington, Rutgers University Press, ISBN 0-8135-0425-2 John... At 08:05 PM 9/11/01 -0600, you wrote: >You guys want a little more information on the >Lenape (Delaware) Indians, here's what Buck had >on one of his pages, when talking about a family >member that was of such breeding. > >Concho. > >----------------------------------------------- >The Lennie-Lenape & Our Connection > >At one time the Lenape (Delawares), formed a >confederacy, the most important of the Algonquian >stock, consisting of the Munsee, Unami, and >Unalachtigo divisions, speaking different >dialects and occupying the basin of the Delaware >river in eastern Pennsylvania and southeastern >New York, and also most of New Jersey and >Delaware. According to tribal tradition the >Delawares had a common origin with the Nanticoke, >Conoy, Shawnee, and Mahican. > >When they made their first treaty with William >Penn in 1682 their council fire was at >Shackamaxon, about the present Germantown, >Pennsylvania. One of their great chiefs at this >period was Tamanend, from whom the Tammany >Society takes its name. In 1720 the Iroquois >assumed dominion over them. This condition lasted >until about the opening of the French and Indian >War. Encroachments by the whites forced them >across the mountains; by 1742 the main body >located on the Susquehanna, at Wyoming and other >points. > >By 1760 owing to Iroquois pressure and by >invitation of the Hurons they commenced to form >settlements in eastern Ohio, and in a short time >the grater part of the Delawares, together with >the Munsee (often referred to as distinct) and >Mahican, had become established on the Muskingum >and other streams of that region. Being now >within reach of the French and supported by the >western tribes, the Delawares were enabled to >cast off the Iroquois yoke, and up to the treaty >of Greenville to come in 1795 they were the most >determined opponents of the advancing whites. > >By permission of the Miami and Piankashaw, about >1770, they settled in the country between the >Ohio and White rivers in Indiana, and with the >sanction of the Spanish Government in 1789 a part >of them, together with some Shawnee, moved to >Missouri and later to Arkansas. > >By 1820 the two bands had found their way to >Texas, where at that time the Delawares numbered >about 700. > >By 1835 most of the tribe had been gathered on a >reservation in Kansas, whence they were removed >in 1867 to Indian Territory (Oklahoma) and >incorporated with the Cherokee Nation. Another >band is affiliated with the Caddo and Wichita in >Western Oklahoma, and in addition there are a few >scattered remnants in the Untied States and >several hundred in Canada where they are known as >Delawares, Munsee, and Moravians. > >After many years of investigation it has been >narrowed down that John Westley Connor's wife's >mother (a 1/2 Native American) was probably of >the Lennie-Lenape tribe because of words and sign >found in a family Bible, and a letter written >that she had been carried by her mother from >eastern Ohio in early winter back to family in >Harrisburg Pennsylvania after getting away from >her capturers in Nov. 1856, making E. Helen >Thomas - her daughter, a breed of 1/2 white and >1/2 Lenape heritage. >----------------------------------------------- >---- Begin Original Message ---- >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Delaware Indians >Thanks Wynn for the note, > The Delawares or Lenape speak an Algonquin >language. The Delawares lived around >Westville(present day kansas City) >andLawrence,Ks. from the 1820's to 1867-68. (One >of their many stops during the migration west >from their homeland along the Delaware River >Valley at European contact. I'll check out >Dean's site(great site for trade lists, too.) in >more detail concerning Delawares. >Thanks again, >Don Secondine > >-------------------- > >In a post not long go someone asked about >referances to Delaware Indians in the fur trade. >I went to Deans AMM site and entered Delware in >the search. I go a dozen or so responces >including Irvings quote: > > > >. The conference ended, Fontenelle sent a >Delaware Indian of his party to conduct fifteen >of the Blackfeet to the camp of Captain Bonneville. > > > >Also, it is my belief for what that is worth >that many referances to Iroquois are really not >being tribe specific. The Iroquois were a large >presense and they were known to adopt other >tribes into the league so it would be easy to >refer to something like the Iroquois with Peter S >Ogden when in fact there were more tribes >represented. I can not remember now if the >Delaware were in the same lingistic group as the >Iroquois but if they are that would make the link >even closer. > > > >Sorry to be so slow to respond to your inquiry. > > > >Wynn Ormond > >---- End Original Message ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Sign up for a free About Email account at http://About.com > >---------------------- hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Benjamin Franklin 1759 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Recent Verbal squabbles Date: 12 Sep 2001 22:24:13 -0400 I will put it in a modern translation.. "Why waste my breath on a waste of breath" D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Recent Verbal squabbles Date: 12 Sep 2001 21:31:53 -0500 Chris Sega wrote: Just ignore fools, for they are not worthy of your scorn. We try. It's hard, but we try. Lanney Ratcliff ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Recent Verbal squabbles Date: 12 Sep 2001 20:50:29 -0600 Dennis, Are you saying that this means this? > I will put it in a modern translation.. > "Why waste my breath on a waste of breath" > D >We cha ah yeh - E ne che key pee sh'nee yell o Walt Park City, Montana USN Destroyman USS Lansing 388--1958 USA Rifleman NATO "the big red one" 1962 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: Re:MtMan-List:Off Topic...WTC thoughts Date: 12 Sep 2001 22:17:18 -0700 Scott McMahon wrote : I am young (25) and do know and understand patriotism...I am a Texan as well as an American. Scott, The young folks I was referring to are not the folks on this list. They are obviously interested in history, but what about the public at large ? I work at a newly formed division of a major steel company here in North Texas that employs over 250 people. The average age of my co-workers is about 28 to 30 yrs. old. I can tell you first hand that their level of knowledge of American History is unbelievably low. I simply cannot believe how low it is. Let me clarify that statement. They have been taught a lot of significant events in American History, but virtually none of them that involve the sacrifices made by men and women during wartime to keep this Country Free. Check out a highschool history text book. You will find very little about the wars that have been fought to keep us Free. It just doesn't seem to be the P.C. thing to discuss. Last summer, a 2nd year college student asked me the same question that his history proff. asked his class. The question was, if you could witness any event in American History, what would it be ? My answer was Pickett's Charge at the Battle of Gettysburg. He looked at me dumbfounded. He had never heard of Pickett's Charge and only vaguely knew of the Battle of Gettysburg. His response was, Uh - - - that's where Lincoln gave a speech wasn't it ? Maybe I'm being overly critical, but I don't think so. Pendleton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Off Topic.....WTC thoughts Date: 12 Sep 2001 21:13:03 -0600 > We cha ah yeh - E ne che key pee sh'nee yell o > > Pendleton What lingo is this? Cheers, Walt Park City, Montana ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Re:MtMan-Lewis & Clark iron boat Date: 12 Sep 2001 22:01:55 -0600 Hallo the list, Thought you might be interested in this. Cheers, Walt Robot begins hunt for Lewis and Clark boat By The Associated Press GREAT FALLS (AP) - Air Force-contracted engineers are looking for an iron-framed boat that Meriwether Lewis and William Clark buried in a field near Great Falls. The engineers are using large metal detectors on a tractor that is driven by a computer-controlled robot. The robot was designed to detect land mines and weak spots in landing strips. It offers an accurate method of finding buried objects because it combines the Global Positioning System and ground-based speed measuring systems to make grids of the field, ensuring that virtually every inch is covered. The machines will spend two to four days crisscrossing the 15-acres of land owned by former Cascade County Commissioner Harry Mitchell, to pinpoint the location of the explorers' last camp, and more specifically, an 220-pound, 36-foot long, 41/2 foot wide boat that may be buried there. Archaeologist Ken Karzmiski, of the Columbia Gorge Discovery Center in the Dalles, Ore., has been researching the boat for years. If the metal detector gives a strong reading, he could begin digging for the boat this fall. Lewis designed the boat and he and Clark carried it from the East coast. They planned on using it to help navigate the Missouri River, but the materials needed to cover the frame weren't available near the Great Falls. So Lewis and Clark improvised and tried to cover the boat with animal skins and seal the cover with a mixture of charcoal and animal fat. But it didn't work, and the boat sank. Lewis wrote in his journals that he and Clark buried the boat with a cache of items at their camp. They wrote about returning to the cache and collecting the other items, including guns and money, but never mentioned the boat again. Karzmiski believes the boat is still buried there, but others say Lewis and Clark could have dug up the boat on their return trip and traded the scrap metal, or the river could have changed channels and washed the boat away. "There would be no rational reason to continue looking for the iron boat here if we don't find signs of it this week with this technology," he said. Copyright � 2001, Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. Updated: Wed Sep 12 09:28:08 CDT 2001 Central Time Copyright � The Billings Gazette, a division of Lee Enterprises. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Off Topic.....WTC thoughts Date: 13 Sep 2001 02:43:01 -0500 My flags will fly full staff and the colors will not be struck (if my government has any guts) until our enemies bodies have begun to rot. Time enough later to mourn our scores of thousands lost. This is the most horrific single act of war in all history. We are at war it is time to cut off all the heads of all the serpents. Right now they are winning. They couldn't have dreamed three buildings would disintegrate. They hoped to own the news. The constant replay of the impact and collapse of both buildings reinforces the fear they hoped to instill. Our enemies dance with joy at the result of their attack and our leaders still talk. Our freedom was first won targeting officers in his majesty's service, we had no compunctions about shooting gentlemen. Shouldn't be any problem knocking off a few of the world's worst rogues. We got some dumb laws. We got some good snipers. It is traditional, it is the American way, right between the eyes. Or let them know we are coming to kill them personally. Ain't a damn thing they can do about it except commit suicide. We all know who the enemy is. They have mutually and individually declared war on us. Time to talk and investigate is over. Go right straight at them, kill anyone who gets in the way, run them to ground, corner them and kill them. It ain't important which one did what just now. They've all declared war on us and it is time for all of them to die. I'd feel much better if Hussein & Bin Laden were dead in the morning. If either didn't happen to do this, he's done enough to justify his death and we can kill any other culprit later. I figure there are 6 to a dozen we could easily do without, and 10,000 of theirs to 1 of US is really not enough. Some of the other scumbags-of-earth might take notice? This is war. We need to kill people and break things. No quarter. No mercy. Get out of the way -- or die! No we are not going to rebuild later, suffer. Right now endless acres of glowing green glass don't sound bad, we've got diamond bits, we can get to the oil later. It would be cost effective. Not as satisfying as making them suffer. They won't be a problem then. Other than that I'm cool as a cucumber. Spent the afternoon at the range. A few armed citizens could have prevented the whole damn thing. A few brave men tried bare-handed and lessened one tragedy by unknown magnitudes; real heros I hope aren't forgotten in the horror. Heros who might have lived, were they armed. Teddy Roosevelt would never have asked first. We'd be kicking somebodies ass, right now! Dear Lord, Please grant the gutless cowards of this world enough spine to stand quietly aside while the enemies of us all are mightily struck down. Then grant all of us the wisdom to bring all of our warriors home and then mind our own business, for a change. Accept in your gentle grace the souls of our fellow citizens, family and friends. God Bless America! Amen, John... ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ronald Schrotter Subject: MtMan-List: off line WTC thoughts Date: 13 Sep 2001 04:13:54 -0700 (PDT) If murdering innocent men, women, and children is a ticket to Heaven, I'd prefer going to Hell. DOG __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: WTC thoughts Date: 13 Sep 2001 08:25:34 -0500 Laarry Pendelton said, Larry, sadly I must agree with you and can say from experience that you are correct in that statement. I wish I could say you are wrong. For 30 years I have used the American Revolutionary Rifleman as my personna. I have given presentations to schools, scouts, DAR and many other civic organizations. Some years ago I had to stop appearing in schools. For one thing, my Rev. period flintlock rifle was prohibited. And the students simply did not know what I was referring to when I said "Revolutionary War". It is not taught. I asked one middle school principal about this and he said (I quote) "Oh, we don't bother with that anymore." Don't "bother" teaching freedom. Now THAT BOTHERS me. Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, Arkansas http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/ozarksmuzzleloaders ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Fwd: FW: A TRIBUTE TO AMERICA Date: 13 Sep 2001 10:45:14 EDT --part1_111.53fcfd8.28d2207a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_111.53fcfd8.28d2207a_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-xc01.mx.aol.com (rly-xc01.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.134]) by air-xc02.mail.aol.com (v80.17) with ESMTP id MAILINXC21-0913101523; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 10:15:23 -0400 Received: from firewall.lumberproducts.com ([208.26.157.253]) by rly-xc01.mx.aol.com (v80.21) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINXC15-0913101451; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 10:14:51 -0400 Received: from nt2.lumberproducts.com by firewall.lumberproducts.com via smtpd (for xc.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.121]) with SMTP; 13 Sep 2001 14:06:28 UT Received: by nt2 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 13 Sep 2001 07:16:06 -0700 Message-ID: <33F8B931B09DD111920300A0C995F54C6405EA@nt2> "Barb Abo (E-mail)" , "Becky (E-mail)" , "Bene't (E-mail)" , "Carol (E-mail)" , "Catlyn Smith/Chuck (E-mail)" , "Cherri & Jennifer Cannon (E-mail)" , "Dana Kolstad (E-mail)" , "Donna Bender (E-mail)" , "Jennifer Cannon (E-mail)" , "Jim Clossan (E-mail)" , "Julie Anderson (E-mail)" , "Kat (E-mail)" , "Laura (E-mail)" , "Linda Gentry (E-mail)" , "Mardi Price (E-mail)" , "Marti Heath (E-mail)" , "Michelle Alseth (E-mail)" , "Nancy Shelstad (E-mail)" , "Orcutt Leanne (E-mail)" , "Sandra (E-mail)" , "Shane (E-mail)" , "Shauna & John Graham (E-mail)" , "Sherri Smith (E-mail)" , "Stacy Stetzel (E-mail)" , "Sue Holtz (E-mail)" , "Tyler Reynolds (E-mail)" , "Wendy (E-mail)" , Adams , Benewah , Blaine , Bonner , Boundary , Butte , Camas , Canyon , Cassia , Clearwater , Custer , Elmore , Gem , Gooding , Idaho , Jerome , Kootenai , Latah , Lemhi , Lewis , Lincoln , Minidoka , Nezperce , Owyhee , Payette , Twin Falls , Valley , Washington , "Alexis Woodbury (E-mail)" , "Cindy Heriford (E-mail)" , "Delia Miller (E-mail)" , "Dunns (E-mail)" , George , "Karey (E-mail)" , "Linda & Les Weinstein (E-mail)" <2ljws@worldnet.att.net>, Erika , Evan & Jared , "Geroge Gorton (E-mail)" , "Hannah & Aimme (E-mail)" , Ian , Cary , Emma , "Gina (E-mail)" , Greta , Heidi , Joise , Kiah , "Kim Miller (E-mail)" , Mitchell , Rachel , "Sami, Ashley & Kristy" , Sara MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C13C5E.9CEEE9A0" ------_=_NextPart_001_01C13C5E.9CEEE9A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 9:15 PM motoxyz@mindspring.com; eldpt@home.com; ontheflyJo@earthlink.net; twohawk@worldnet.att.net; fanaticsac@earthlink.net; janwakefield@earthlink.net; jjordan@nadelarc.com; fotos4U@burgoyne.com; jmartin@weber.k12.ut.us; bobgloyd@juno.com; myhomebase@mindspring.com; Diknlou@aol.com; MsDaylilly@aol.com; GuandaR20@aol.com; golfd8@mediaone.net; emet@ruraltel.net; Julz9@aol.com; BGBDBTH@aol.com; Ljuliaw@aol.com; shanekristin@hotmail.com; GRILS123@aol.com America: The Good Neighbor. Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record: "This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States. When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it. When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were threatened by tornadoes. Nobody helped. The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into damaged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans. I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon, not once, but several times and safely home again. You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here. When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke. I can name you 5,000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake. Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those. Stand proud, America." The writer of this e-mail says, "This is one of the best editorials that I have ever read regarding the United States. It is nice that one man realizes it. I only wish that the rest of the world would realize it. We seem to be blamed for everything, and don't get a thank you for the things we do. I would hope that each of you would send this to as many people as you can and emphasize that they should send it to as many of their friends until this letter is sent to every person on the web. I am just a single American that has read this, I SURE HOPE THAT A LOT MORE READ IT SOON. Makes you proud to live here doesn't it?" I'm as proud as you to be an American ... sleep well, dear ones. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C13C5E.9CEEE9A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

-----Original Message-----
From: Texnjan@aol.com [mailto:Texnjan@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 9:15 PM
To: ChucknDoe@aol.com; hkbecker@worldnet.att.net; Julie Bender; motoxyz@mindspring.com; eldpt@home.com; ontheflyJo@earthlink.net; twohawk@worldnet.att.net; fanaticsac@earthlink.net; janwakefield@earthlink.net; jjordan@nadelarc.com; fotos4U@burgoyne.com; jmartin@weber.k12.ut.us; bobgloyd@juno.com; myhomebase@mindspring.com; Diknlou@aol.com; MsDaylilly@aol.com; GuandaR20@aol.com; golfd8@mediaone.net; emet@ruraltel.net; Julz9@aol.com; BGBDBTH@aol.com; Ljuliaw@aol.com; shanekristin@hotmail.com; GRILS123@aol.com
Subject: A TRIBUTE TO AMERICA

America: The Good Neighbor. Widespread but only partial news coverage was
given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon
Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text
of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most
generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.
Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of
the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and
forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even
the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who
propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the
streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in
to
help. This spring, 59 American communities were threatened by tornadoes.
Nobody helped. The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of
dollars into damaged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing
about the decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion
of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in
the
world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or
the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the
International lines except Russia fly American Planes? Why does no other
land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk
about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German
technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy,
and you find men on the moon, not once, but several times and safely home
again. You talk
about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for
everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded.
They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking
Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend
here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through
age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad
and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose.
Both are still broke.

I can name you 5,000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other
people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to
the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during
the San Francisco earthquake. Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one
Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around.

They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they
are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their
present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those. Stand proud, America."

The writer of this e-mail says, "This is one of the best editorials that I
have ever read regarding the United States. It is nice that one man realizes
it. I only wish that the rest of the world would realize it. We seem to be
blamed for everything, and don't get a thank you for the things we do. I
would hope that each of you would send this to as many people as you can and
emphasize that they should send it to as many of their friends until this
letter is sent to every person on the web. I am just a single American that
has read this, I SURE HOPE THAT A LOT MORE READ IT SOON. Makes you proud to
live here doesn't it?"

I'm as proud as you to be an American ... sleep well, dear ones.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C13C5E.9CEEE9A0-- --part1_111.53fcfd8.28d2207a_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: AMM-List: Off Topic.....WTC thoughts Date: 13 Sep 2001 10:49:11 EDT Thank You John. Wade Smith ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: WSmith4100@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: WTC thoughts Date: 13 Sep 2001 10:54:02 EDT Frank, The shame is on "us" (Americans) all for letting it happen. We became an ostrich with our heads in the sand. This country has had no dignity for at least the last 8 yrs. It's high time we got our dignity back. Amen? ZZZZZZZZZZZZ Sleeps Loudly Wade Smith Boise, Id USA ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CTOAKES@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: over nite muzzleloader Date: 13 Sep 2001 10:55:20 EDT --part1_e6.1b31c847.28d222d8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/10/01 6:22:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gjme@negia.net writes: > discharge it and wipe it then load it the next morning a fresh. Anybody > I keep a bird feather quill in the touch hole of my flintlocks when hunting and only pull it to prime when I have something to shoot at. So if I have a load in at the end of the day I just keep the touch hole plugged with the feather and the pan clean and use it the next day. It has gone off every time this way. You must remember that it is a loaded gun and the spark from the flint can and often will ignite the charge if the touch hole is clear even when you do not have the pan primed so know where and how you are storing the gun. Frizzen open and cock down if you store it over night. The use of a feather in the touch hole dates way back as a sign of a loaded flinter. I never store it loaded for the third day, not that it would not work, just my fear that I might loose a deer due to a damp load. So after the second day I clear the load and wipe it down and start fresh. Y.M.O.S. C.T. Oakes --part1_e6.1b31c847.28d222d8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/10/01 6:22:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gjme@negia.net
writes:

discharge it and wipe it then load it the next morning a fresh. Anybody
do different.

I keep a bird feather quill in the touch hole of my flintlocks when hunting
and only pull it to prime when I have something to shoot at. So if I have a
load in at the end of the day I just keep the touch hole plugged with the
feather and the pan clean and use it the next day. It has gone off every
time this way. You must remember that it is a loaded gun and the spark from
the flint can and often will ignite the charge if the touch hole is clear
even when you do not have the pan primed so know where and how you are
storing the gun. Frizzen open and cock down if you store it over night. The
use of a feather in the touch hole dates way back as a sign of a loaded
flinter.
I never store it loaded for the third day, not that it would not work, just
my fear that I might loose a deer due to a damp load. So after the second
day I clear the load and wipe it down and start fresh.

Y.M.O.S.

C.T. Oakes --part1_e6.1b31c847.28d222d8_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: over nite muzzleloader Date: 13 Sep 2001 11:27:11 -0400 normally i clean my gun prior to going to hunt about 2 weeks befor the season even if it has not been used---then opening day i load it and it stays loaded till i make meat or fire it ---season is about 2 weeks long or more so sometimes it stays loded several days---If i use flint i put a feather in the toutch hole and have the frizzen always open till i am ready to hunt and the cock down ---if i use a caplock i remove the cap and put the hammer all the way down to seal off the hole thru the nipple---have had one loaded for over 30 days on occasions and still no hang fire or problems---when you clean them prior to the season or while in camp be sure to store them upside down so all the moisture or oil drains away from the breach---on a caplock i clean the bore good remove the nipple and use a pipe cleaner to remove any residue or oil in the bore---on my caplock I replace the nipple just befor leaving to go to deer camp this lets everything dry out good and dry---on my huntig gun i have relieved some of the material under the nipple so the powder can get there---did the wax test to verify that i had good clearance after the nipple is screwed in---I also like to check the nipple and remove the burr that is usually on the under side of it and champher it a bit with a sharp pointed knife or bur tool--I also open the nipple thru hole up about .003 to .005 to insure real positive ignition---makes then shoot fast without any hang no matter the condition----"caution" if you open the nipple up too much it will make the hammer blow back to halfcock during fireing --------in that case just change the nipple---and ream it out smaller dia --- a lot of the original nipples were heavily coned on the underside of the nipple to allow powder to get there---this will increase the posibilities of the nipple blowing back to half cock during fireing if the thru hole is too big---my hawken has such a nipple in it thread is a odd one not 1/4 -28 which is standard---so i have to single point the threads on the nipple and make it special if i need one--- also i swab the bore of the gun ever night but leave it loaded ---the cap removed and or the flash hole plugged with a feather and the nipple wiped down to insure none of the prime is left there to accidently make it flash off---I wipe the bore down when i come back to camp with a patch litly coated with rigg to protect the bore from rust if i am in a moiste climate or hunting in rain which is normaal where i hunt---rain or snow---. nuff said--- "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Book Date: 13 Sep 2001 12:35:37 EDT In a message dated 9/13/1 1:38:56 AM, deforge1@bright.net writes: << "THe Forgotten Arts & Crafts" by John Seymour>> Sounds great! Is it still in print? Richard James ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWzypher@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Recent Verbal squabbles Date: 13 Sep 2001 13:04:57 EDT I am starting to get angry! "<< Do you even know that XX said?? Just curious... X X, I don't understand...why don't you please enlighten those of us not blessed with the understanding of certain native tongues..." >> This kind of stuff - names deleted - has no place on this site! If anyone wants to amaze another with their subtle wit, let them do it person-to-person -- not useing everyone else's time for this trivia. I cleared my screen at midnight and this morning had over 200 messages -- some of them important. I want to be in touch with AMM /MLML and others that I hold common interest with, but do not have time to sort through messages from one writer to another who want to go public "for all to see". Such messages as above and others like "me too. bubba" are NOT for the benefit of the other subscribers and I ask that they be sent from individual to the other individual involved -- NOT to appear on my screen. Most emphatically sincere -- and bring on your criticisms! Richard James Hvrno #79 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chris Sega Subject: Re: MtMan-List: over nite muzzleloader Date: 13 Sep 2001 11:44:07 -0700 (PDT) > > > > I keep a bird feather quill in the touch hole of my > flintlocks when hunting > and only pull it to prime when I have something to > shoot at. This is a good idea and I do it as well, but watch out, a friend of mine missed a deer a few seasons back because when he pulled the feather out, the membranous sheath was left in the touch hole. He surmises that it was a plucked feather and not naturally shed, hence the sheath. __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Of Iron boat, Horses, & History Date: 13 Sep 2001 12:03:45 -0500 Greetings....

As I know everyone's is, my heart is heavy with the news that pours out of the northeast, but I find some solace and peace in this small community we have here on the History List.

Thanks Walt, for the newsclipping on the Iron boat. I hope they find it so we can all touch a piece of our treasured history, but I will not bet the farm on it still being there.... and thanks to all those who talked about getting the horses used to gunfire, I will use this information in the next couple of days in my training program.

At the moment, I'm training CJ (the mare) to stake out from a foot, so far, so good.... no furry explosions. I've used 3/4" cotton rope to keep from burning tender little legs. I'm also working with the yearling on introducing him to hobbles. I can't remember who told me to try the gunnysack hobbles.. but I obviously didn't get all the notes... the yearling has slipped 'em twice and I'm trying to figger out how to get 'em tighter without binding. The next step after they are comfortable with the tie outs, is to gradually introduce them to the flintlock.... think I'll try that when I've got enough folks to hold each animal. Don't want to spend the next week collecting my scattered herd and bandaging boo-boos if all goes to heck in a handbasket <G>

Later today, I'll try and rebrain a hide that came out like cardboard. For a little while, the smell and the hard work will take my mind off of the horror that was the trade center and the pentagon...

Walk in peace, and remember those that suffer in your prayers...

Lee Newbill of Idaho

---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Book Date: 13 Sep 2001 15:25:45 -0400 " Sounds great! Is it still in print?" > Richard James Yep, brand new combined edition, 2001 ISBN # 0-7894-5847-0 D ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Of Iron boat, Horses, & History Date: 13 Sep 2001 17:24:45 EDT In a message dated 9/13/01 2:57:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bluethistle@potlatch.com writes: << I'll try and rebrain a hide that came out like cardboard >> I found you got to soften quick, continuously and not let up...the cable works GREAT. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Marc Stewart Subject: MtMan-List: wtc Date: 13 Sep 2001 20:05:41 -0400 Great, Powerful Piece by L. Pitts addressed to terrorists Wed Sep 12 08:40:41 2001 They pay me to tease shades of meaning from social and cultural issues, to provide words that help make sense of that which troubles the American soul. But in this moment of airless shock when hot tears sting disbelieving eyes, the only thing I can find to say, the only words that seem to fit, must be addressed to the unknown author of this suffering. You monster. You beast. You unspeakable bastard. What lesson did you hope to teach us by your coward's attack on our World Trade Center, our Pentagon, us? What was it you hoped we would learn? Whatever it was, know that you failed. Did you want us to respect your cause? You just damned it. Did you want to make us fear? You just steeled our resolve. Did you want to tear us apart? You just brought us together. Let me tell you about my people. We are a vast and quarrelsome family, a family rent by racial, cultural, political and class division, but a family nonetheless. We're frivolous, yes, capable of expending tremendous emotional energy on pop cultural minutiae -- a singer's revealing dress, a ball team's misfortune, a cartoon mouse. We're wealthy, too, spoiled by the ready availability of trinkets and material goods, and maybe because of that, we walk through life with a certain sense of blithe entitlement. We are fundamentally decent, though -- peace-loving and compassionate. We struggle to know the right thing and to do it. And we are, the overwhelming majority of us, people of faith, believers in a just and loving God. Some people -- you, perhaps -- think that any or all of this makes us weak. You're mistaken. We are not weak. Indeed, we are strong in ways that cannot be measured by arsenals. Yes, we're in pain now. We are in mourning, and we are in shock. We're still grappling with the unreality of the awful thing you did, still working to make ourselves understand that this isn't a special effect from some Hollywood blockbuster, isn't the plot from a Tom Clancy novel. Both in terms of the awful scope of its ambition and the probable final death toll, your attacks are likely to go down as the worst acts of terrorism in the history of the United States and, indeed, the history of the world. You've bloodied us as we have never been bloodied before. But there's a gulf of difference between making us bloody and making us fall. This is the lesson Japan was taught to its bitter sorrow the last time anyone hit us this hard, the last time anyone brought us such abrupt and monumental pain. When roused, we are righteous in our outrage, terrible in our force. When provoked by this level of barbarism, we will bear any suffering, pay any cost, go to any length, in the pursuit of justice. I tell you this without fear of contradiction. I know my people, as you do not. What I know reassures me. It also causes me to tremble with dread of the future. In days to come, there will be recrimination and accusation, fingers pointing to determine whose failure allowed this to happen and what can be done to prevent it from happening again. There will be heightened security, misguided talk of revoking basic freedoms. We'll go forward from this moment sobered, chastened, sad. But determined, too. Unimaginably determined. There is steel beneath this velvet. That aspect of our character is seldom understood by those who don't know us well. On this day, the family's bickering is put on hold. As Americans we will weep, as Americans we will mourn, and as Americans we will rise in defense of all that we cherish. Still, I keep wondering what it was you hoped to teach us. It occurs to me that maybe you just wanted us to know the depths of your hatred. If that's the case, consider the message received. And take this message in exchange: You don't know my people. You don't know what we're about. You don't know what you just started. But you're about to learn. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Walt Foster" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: wtc Date: 13 Sep 2001 18:24:21 -0600 Friends, On September 11, 2001, the United States suffered the worst combined acts of domestic terrorism in our nation's history. The world stood shocked and outraged at unprovoked acts of violence committed upon thousands of innocent Americans. President George W. Bush has ordered the Federal Government to assist the victims of violence, investigate these acts of terror, and take steps to bring those responsible for these tragedies to justice. I fully support President Bush's actions, and will do whatever I can to help him, and our country in this time of need. Terrorism cannot and will not be tolerated. I know the President will take all measures necessary to seek out and punish those who so viciously attacked innocent and defenseless Americans. As Americans, we are a strong and resilient people. We will heal and emerge stronger than ever. Our strength and spirit of democracy will shine through. We will not simply endure, we shall prevail. And we will send a sharp message to these cowards, showing that terrorist acts will not be tolerated. They will never be able to destroy our freedom and our way of life. My heartfelt thoughts and prayers go out to those who so tragically lost their lives and those friends and families who lost their loved ones. This was far more than a tragedy -- it was an outrageous act of terrorism that killed and injured so many innocent and decent citizens of our country. Nothing I can say to express my sympathy for those suffering is enough. My outrage toward this cowardice act remains unwavering. For now, we must mourn those who have passed on and care for those injured. We must let the President, law enforcement, military and the intelligence community do their work. As a law-abiding nation, we must be sure to place blame on the guilty. Taking independent action against innocent foreigners and guests in our country is wrong. Many are filled with anger and an unyielding desire for revenge, but we must remain calm and focused. In the heat of passion fired by the outrageous and despicable acts of those who are guilty, our leadership must be calm and dispassionate in determining who is responsible and how we must deal with them. Have no doubt: we will find those responsible. I say to those responsible, "You have no where to hide." Justice will be served swiftly and harshly. Yesterday's acts represented a well-planned, well-financed attack on our freedom by a faceless and gutless enemy. Make no mistake, we are at war. Our military is on highest alert. Our armed forces are ready. I stand firmly and proudly behind President Bush. There is no doubt of our unity and resolve to track down, root out and relentlessly pursue terrorists and the states that support them and harbor them. I stand by to support our military and intelligence community and fight for any and all of the resources they need to ensure our national security. Let us not forget this as we consider our funding bills. This is a great nation with a strong and brave history. Americans have come together and triumphed through difficult times like these. We will again, and we will punish those responsible. America is united and strong. Our military might remains unchallenged. America remains resolved in its efforts to find those who so cowardly committed these horrific acts. To quote a few words from our Battle Hymn of the Republic, those responsible will soon understand the true meaning of the line, "he hath loosed the fateful lightning of his terrible swift sword" as America will indeed march on. God Bless, Conrad Burns, United States Senator ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Angela Gottfred Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: FW: A TRIBUTE TO AMERICA Date: 13 Sep 2001 19:47:56 -0600 Dear Friend, I know that your publication of Gordon Sinclair's essay was well-intended, but, as a Canadian, I found it painful. You see, that essay was first published, not last week or last year, but nearly thirty years ago. It was written in 1973, during the height of the Vietnam War. I don't know if it accurately described world opinion then, but it certainly does not accurately describe world opinion now. On Monday night, Calgary's Saddledome hosted the Canadian Country Music Awards to a sold-out crowd. Last night, the stranded country music stars held a concert, with proceeds to aid the victims of yesterday's terror attacks. They raised $65,000 for the Red Cross. It feels good to know that everyone is trying to help, yet it also feels like a drop in the bucket... Canadian Blood Services is having additional hours for blood donation, to accommodate all the people who wish to give blood for American victims of this unspeakable crime. The British say that, in all likelihood, hundreds of British citizens were killed in the WTC attacks. Given the even closer ties between Canada and the U.S., Canadian casualties will probably be comparable. We know for certain at least one Canadian was killed in one of the hijacked planes. Two hundred and forty-seven American civilian planes were diverted to Canada. We are falling all over ourselves to help our unexpected guests. I haven't heard a single complaint. When Calgary's hotels were filled to capacity, Calgary's new homeless shelter was opened three weeks early to accommodate stranded visitors. Again, it feels like a drop in the bucket compared to the incredible tragedy you folks are experiencing. In Germany, there are pro-American demonstrations. In Russia, they are laying flowers outside the American Embassy. All the Canadians I have spoken with, all the "average Canadians" I have seen interviewed on the CBC and CTV, agree that this was an incredible crime against the United States and democracy and freedom worldwide. NATO has invoked Article 5 of the NATO agreement, which considers an attack against one Alliance member to be equivalent to an attack against all of them. I couldn't agree more. The U.S. was targeted because they are the flagbearer for the principles of freedom and democracy that we all believe in; it would be cowardly in the extreme for Canada and other member countries to have the benefits of NATO membership and American leadership, without supporting the U.S. to the hilt when they take the brunt of such horrific acts. Sincerely, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Was A TRIBUTE TO AMERICA NOW: Thanks abroad Date: 13 Sep 2001 22:35:26 EDT Angela, Many thanks to you and your fellow countrymen for the aid and comfort given to my fellow Americans. It touches me deeply to see just how the world has expressed its grief at our unfortunate loss...at the murders we suffered. Now, with the shock wearing off and the totality of the picture so slowly beginning to emerge...I am reminded America, though carrying the brunt of the loss, shares its loss with many other countries of the world. Allow me to share my condolences to the loss of your fellow Canadians. Thank-you to all of you here and abroad who have helped out and shared our grief in some form or another. We will rise up. Our resolve has been hardened. Like a new firelock...we are now tempered to the task at hand. May the world watch as we unite and face the monumental task at recovery and retribution! May God guide us all as we embark on the challenge. By His grace we will overcome. Yours from Southern America, -C. Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: MtMan-List: Thoughts on the WTC Attack Date: 13 Sep 2001 19:50:37 -0700 In these hellish days, I take immense pride in the caliber of my fellow citizens. Both press and private reports have noted that people of all backgrounds have turned out to help. There has been no looting. One eyewitness report forwarded via friends noted that young men in gang dress, normally to be feared, were seen helping a man overcome by the effects of choking smoke and dust. Most inspiring to me have been the reports of the final minutes of flight 93. We may never know what happened on the earlier flights. It is possible passengers and remaining crew did not realize the nature of their doom until too late. However, a combination of our rich and open communication systems, prompt media information, and the enterprising nature of Americans, allowed brave passengers on flight 93 to reach loved ones via cell phones, despite witnessing the terrorists killing flight crew. Thus learning of the prior deadly attacks, and realizing their own lives were forfeit, several brave men resolved to "do something". Probably as a result, this flight crashed in open country, avoiding a fourth attack on a national landmark. We all hope and pray for justice to be served. A line has been crossed. We all know we need to re-evaluate who our friends and enemies are, and how we treat them. Blanket "tolerance" of outrages ranging from siezure of property to state sponsored schoolbooks that teach school kids to hate Americans is neither moral nor sensible. I do not have the answers as to what military actions we can take, although the world understands we are in a state of war. But we must return to an honest and moral foreign policy. We must start by being clear and forthright about our principles, what we stand for, and how we expect to be treated if you would be our friend. Correspondingly, we need to be ready to promptly assert our rights against those who initiate force, and we must stop treating our enemies as if they were morally equal to us. We cannot correct every evil in the world, but we could be a whole lot more clear about the consequences of attacking our people, our country, and our property. Respectfully submitted Patrick Quilter ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: FW: A TRIBUTE TO AMERICA Date: 13 Sep 2001 23:31:21 -0400 Thank you Angela, and thank you, Canadians, for all you have done.... Ad Miller Alderson, WV ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Glover Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: FW: A TRIBUTE TO AMERICA Date: 13 Sep 2001 21:34:25 -0600 Thanks Angela..and all fellow North Americans...... "Teton" Todd D. Glover http://homestead.juno.com/tetontodd/index.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: FW: A TRIBUTE TO AMERICA Date: 14 Sep 2001 08:07:59 -0400 angela many thanks for your wonderful response---lots of emotion and feeling there---thanks again---les we forget "HAWK" Michael Pierce "Home of ".Old Grizz" Product line " trademark (C) 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor florida 34684 Phone Number: 1-727-771-1815 E-Mail: hawknest4@juno.com Web site: http://www.angelfire.com/fl2/mpierce ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "darlene secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: FW: A TRIBUTE TO AMERICA Date: 15 Sep 2001 01:39:45 +0000 Thank you Angela, I watched the news today and saw how the free world is reaching out to give us solace in these dark times. Even the Queen of England. I don't know where my son is tonight, but I know he is doing his duty because he is a UNITED STATES MARINE and marine through and through. Our service men and women will do us proud if they all have the same spirit as he. Pray for them, and support them, so they will know we are behind them all the way. Respectfully, Don Secondine >From: Angela Gottfred >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: FW: A TRIBUTE TO AMERICA >Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:47:56 -0600 > >Dear Friend, > >I know that your publication of Gordon Sinclair's essay was well-intended, >but, as a Canadian, I found it painful. You see, that essay was first >published, not last week or last year, but nearly thirty years ago. It was >written in 1973, during the height of the Vietnam War. I don't know if it >accurately described world opinion then, but it certainly does not >accurately describe world opinion now. > >On Monday night, Calgary's Saddledome hosted the Canadian Country Music >Awards to a sold-out crowd. Last night, the stranded country music stars >held a concert, with proceeds to aid the victims of yesterday's terror >attacks. They raised $65,000 for the Red Cross. It feels good to know that >everyone is trying to help, yet it also feels like a drop in the bucket... > >Canadian Blood Services is having additional hours for blood donation, to >accommodate all the people who wish to give blood for American victims of >this unspeakable crime. The British say that, in all likelihood, hundreds >of British citizens were killed in the WTC attacks. Given the even closer >ties between Canada and the U.S., Canadian casualties will probably be >comparable. We know for certain at least one Canadian was killed in one of >the hijacked planes. > >Two hundred and forty-seven American civilian planes were diverted to >Canada. We are falling all over ourselves to help our unexpected guests. I >haven't heard a single complaint. When Calgary's hotels were filled to >capacity, Calgary's new homeless shelter was opened three weeks early to >accommodate stranded visitors. Again, it feels like a drop in the bucket >compared to the incredible tragedy you folks are experiencing. > >In Germany, there are pro-American demonstrations. In Russia, they are >laying flowers outside the American Embassy. > >All the Canadians I have spoken with, all the "average Canadians" I have >seen interviewed on the CBC and CTV, agree that this was an incredible >crime against the United States and democracy and freedom worldwide. > >NATO has invoked Article 5 of the NATO agreement, which considers an attack >against one Alliance member to be equivalent to an attack against all of >them. I couldn't agree more. The U.S. was targeted because they are the >flagbearer for the principles of freedom and democracy that we all believe >in; it would be cowardly in the extreme for Canada and other member >countries to have the benefits of NATO membership and American leadership, >without supporting the U.S. to the hilt when they take the brunt of such >horrific acts. > >Sincerely, >Angela Gottfred > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fwd: FW: A TRIBUTE TO AMERICA Date: 14 Sep 2001 20:52:01 -0500 Thank you Angela, I was moved by the endless sea of people attending the Canadian memorial=20 service today. John... At 07:47 PM 9/13/01 -0600, you wrote: >Dear Friend, > >I know that your publication of Gordon Sinclair's essay was well-intende= d,=20 >but, as a Canadian, I found it painful. You see, that essay was first=20 >published, not last week or last year, but nearly thirty years ago. It w= as=20 >written in 1973, during the height of the Vietnam War. I don't know if i= t=20 >accurately described world opinion then, but it certainly does not=20 >accurately describe world opinion now. > >On Monday night, Calgary's Saddledome hosted the Canadian Country Music=20 >Awards to a sold-out crowd. Last night, the stranded country music stars= =20 >held a concert, with proceeds to aid the victims of yesterday's terror=20 >attacks. They raised $65,000 for the Red Cross. It feels good to know th= at=20 >everyone is trying to help, yet it also feels like a drop in the bucket.= .. > >Canadian Blood Services is having additional hours for blood donation, t= o=20 >accommodate all the people who wish to give blood for American victims o= f=20 >this unspeakable crime. The British say that, in all likelihood, hundred= s=20 >of British citizens were killed in the WTC attacks. Given the even close= r=20 >ties between Canada and the U.S., Canadian casualties will probably be=20 >comparable. We know for certain at least one Canadian was killed in one = of=20 >the hijacked planes. > >Two hundred and forty-seven American civilian planes were diverted to=20 >Canada. We are falling all over ourselves to help our unexpected guests.= I=20 >haven't heard a single complaint. When Calgary's hotels were filled to=20 >capacity, Calgary's new homeless shelter was opened three weeks early to= =20 >accommodate stranded visitors. Again, it feels like a drop in the bucket= =20 >compared to the incredible tragedy you folks are experiencing. > >In Germany, there are pro-American demonstrations. In Russia, they are=20 >laying flowers outside the American Embassy. > >All the Canadians I have spoken with, all the "average Canadians" I have= =20 >seen interviewed on the CBC and CTV, agree that this was an incredible=20 >crime against the United States and democracy and freedom worldwide. > >NATO has invoked Article 5 of the NATO agreement, which considers an=20 >attack against one Alliance member to be equivalent to an attack against= =20 >all of them. I couldn't agree more. The U.S. was targeted because they a= re=20 >the flagbearer for the principles of freedom and democracy that we all=20 >believe in; it would be cowardly in the extreme for Canada and other=20 >member countries to have the benefits of NATO membership and American=20 >leadership, without supporting the U.S. to the hilt when they take the=20 >brunt of such horrific acts. > >Sincerely, >Angela Gottfred > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html John T. Kramer, maker of:=A0 Kramer's Best Antique Improver >>>It makes wood wonderful<<< =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 >>>As good as old!<<< mail to: ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pavel Grund" Subject: MtMan-List: solidarity Date: 15 Sep 2001 17:25:10 +0200 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007E_01C13E0B.5F3118A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear friends, Reports from USA are very hard blow for us. We can=B4t believe what we = see in TV. We hope that all offenders will be disclosed and grueled. Yesterday night in our country burn candles in windows over all land as = symbol of solidarity wiht people of USA. People of our country are prepared to help in accordance with our = possibilities.=20 Pavel "Peggy" Grund Czech Republic ------=_NextPart_000_007E_01C13E0B.5F3118A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear=20 friends,

Reports from USA are very hard blow for us. We = can=B4t=20 believe what we see in TV.

We hope that all offenders will be disclosed and = grueled.

Yesterday night in our country burn candles in windows over all = land as=20 symbol of solidarity wiht people of USA.

People of our country are prepared to help in accordance with our=20 possibilities.

Pavel "Peggy" Grund

Czech Republic

------=_NextPart_000_007E_01C13E0B.5F3118A0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Double Edge Forge" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: solidarity Date: 15 Sep 2001 12:05:39 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C13DDE.BC45A740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable D=ECkujeme V=E1m D ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Pavel Grund=20 To: ve=F8ejn=E1 konference US MM=20 Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 11:25 AM Subject: MtMan-List: solidarity Dear friends,=20 Reports from USA are very hard blow for us. We can=B4t believe what = we see in TV. We hope that all offenders will be disclosed and grueled. Yesterday night in our country burn candles in windows over all land = as symbol of solidarity wiht people of USA. People of our country are prepared to help in accordance with our = possibilities.=20 Pavel "Peggy" Grund Czech Republic ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C13DDE.BC45A740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

D=ECkujeme V=E1m

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From:=20 Pavel Grund