From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Colonial Market Fair in WV Date: 01 May 2004 00:20:56 -0500 ad and mouse--- if you get this way during the summer you can set up any sat or sunday at the local crafsman /vender doins here in eureka---lots of tourest traffic---they want me or the wife to set up working on ml rifles--- hawk--- ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Colonial Market Fair in WV Date: 01 May 2004 16:24:23 -0400 Cool idea :) If we get out that way, we'll bring some goodies with us... Casey, my son, has decided he wants to go hunting in WV instead of driving to Arkansas to hunt. He only gets so many days off, and he doesn't want to waste several them on the road. Regards, Ad ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 1:20 AM > ad and mouse--- > if you get this way during the summer you can set up any sat or sunday at > the local crafsman /vender doins here in eureka---lots of tourest > traffic---they want me or the wife to set up working on ml rifles--- > > hawk--- > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: amm1616@comcast.net Subject: MtMan-List: horse hair ropes Date: 02 May 2004 01:45:02 +0000 Does anybody know where I can pick up some 1/4 inch horse hair ropes? mike. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Stuart Family" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: North Star West Guns Date: 01 May 2004 20:02:55 -0600 Visited that same table at the Great Falls Montana Gun Show today...except I started at the other side of the room from where Beaver Boy did, so I found the North Star West table early in my wanderings. They set a very high standard for me and the rest of the show was just OK...still some modern stuff that is fun. I was very impressed with what I say and the fact that I can do some of the building myself. I plan to put one of them on my list...first time I have ever thought of going with a flintlock. Ed "Brother Bear" Stuart > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of > beaverboy@sofast.net > Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 11:01 PM > To: hist_text@xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: North Star West Guns > > > Dear List, > Went to the Great Falls Montana Gun Show today. Walked up and down row > after row of mostly modern crapola when almost to the end I came to a > table loaded with five or six very fine smoothbores! Turned out to be > North Star West's table! Matt Denison was there with some fine examples > of his guns and two pistols. > I have to say that North Star guns have improved even more since I > bought mine 7 years or so ago. > The Officer's Model Musket is a dandy of a musket. Will make a fine > turkey killer. The Trade Gun is as good as ever too. > If any of you were wondering about North Star West guns, I know I > bragged mine up and now they're even better! You can't beat them. > bb > > > http://www.northstarwest.com/ > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Stuart Family" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: North Star West Guns Date: 01 May 2004 20:02:55 -0600 Visited that same table at the Great Falls Montana Gun Show today...except I started at the other side of the room from where Beaver Boy did, so I found the North Star West table early in my wanderings. They set a very high standard for me and the rest of the show was just OK...still some modern stuff that is fun. I was very impressed with what I say and the fact that I can do some of the building myself. I plan to put one of them on my list...first time I have ever thought of going with a flintlock. Ed "Brother Bear" Stuart > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of > beaverboy@sofast.net > Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 11:01 PM > To: hist_text@xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: North Star West Guns > > > Dear List, > Went to the Great Falls Montana Gun Show today. Walked up and down row > after row of mostly modern crapola when almost to the end I came to a > table loaded with five or six very fine smoothbores! Turned out to be > North Star West's table! Matt Denison was there with some fine examples > of his guns and two pistols. > I have to say that North Star guns have improved even more since I > bought mine 7 years or so ago. > The Officer's Model Musket is a dandy of a musket. Will make a fine > turkey killer. The Trade Gun is as good as ever too. > If any of you were wondering about North Star West guns, I know I > bragged mine up and now they're even better! You can't beat them. > bb > > > http://www.northstarwest.com/ > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: North Star West Guns Date: 01 May 2004 21:21:43 -0500 Brother Bear said: > Visited that same table at the Great Falls Montana Gun Show today...except I > started at the other side of the room from where Beaver Boy did, so I found > the North Star West table early in my wanderings. They set a very high > standard for me and the rest of the show was just OK...still some modern > stuff that is fun. I was very impressed with what I say and the fact that I > can do some of the building myself. I plan to put one of them on my > list...first time I have ever thought of going with a flintlock. > > Ed "Brother Bear" Stuart Watch yourself, Ed. Once you get a flinchlock you will tend to ignore you nipple guns. I have a perfectly serviceable TC .54 cap gun that has been fired only twice in about six years. Get you a good rock crusher and you will be hooked. I have a custom .62 Northwest Trade Gun and a fine .53 rifle with the prettiest tiger maple stock you would ever want to see and I crave more. Don't say I didn't warn you. Lanney Ratcliff......addicted down in Texas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: North Star West Guns Date: 01 May 2004 19:32:32 -0700 Those caplocks are a cute idea....but, they won't catch on.... Randy ...first time I have ever thought of going with a flintlock. > > > > Ed "Brother Bear" Stuart > > > > Watch yourself, Ed. Once you get a flinchlock you will tend to ignore you > nipple guns. Don't say I didn't warn you. > Lanney Ratcliff......addicted down in Texas > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DOUBLE EDGE FORGE" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: North Star West Guns Date: 01 May 2004 22:51:36 -0400 Nipples have no business on weapons... They have much better uses... D ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 10:32 PM > Those caplocks are a cute idea....but, they won't catch on.... Randy > > > ...first time I have ever thought of going with a flintlock. > > > > > > Ed "Brother Bear" Stuart > > > > > > > > Watch yourself, Ed. Once you get a flinchlock you will tend to ignore you > > nipple guns. Don't say I didn't warn you. > > Lanney Ratcliff......addicted down in Texas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Colonial Market Fair in WV Date: 01 May 2004 21:20:24 -0700 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I went to the Market Fair and Rifle Frolic at Ft Loudoun, co-event with Ft Frederick. For a west coaster it was a neat experience. There were over 100 sutlers and over 700 campers. I was in Pennsylvania visiting my daughter, so spent a couple of days at Rdvs.. I fell in with a bunch of northern New Yorkers, who treated me like a long lost friend (most of my friends wished I were long lost...) I planned on buying my meals at the several food vendors there, but my new friends wouldn't let me spend a dime....they fed me like a King. I met several AMM brothers there. It was fun seeing how the easterners did things. I hope to return again next year.... to see my new rdvs friends, and to see my grandkids again. Yfab, Randy ----- Original Message ----- Vicki and I just got back from the Colonial Market Fair at Jacksons Mill in Weston, WV and did GREAT!! The event was sponsored by Rick and Linda Blizard. Last we heard when they were not going to have a Fort Fred any more, so Rick and Linda set this one up. IT WAS GREAT!!! :) Not many vendors ( 8 I think) and about 100 campers, ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
I went to the Market Fair and Rifle Frolic at Ft Loudoun, co-event with Ft Frederick.   For a west coaster it was a neat experience.  There were over 100 sutlers and over 700 campers.  I was in Pennsylvania visiting my daughter, so spent a couple of days at Rdvs..   I fell in with a bunch of northern New Yorkers, who treated me like a long lost friend (most of my friends wished I were long lost...)  I planned on buying my meals at the several food vendors there, but my new friends wouldn't let me spend a dime....they fed me like a King.  I met several AMM brothers there.  It was fun seeing how the easterners did things.  I hope to return again next year.... to see my new rdvs friends, and to see my grandkids again.   Yfab, Randy
 
 
----- Original Message -----
 
Vicki and I just got back from the Colonial Market Fair at Jacksons Mill in Weston, WV and did GREAT!! The event was sponsored by Rick and Linda Blizard. Last we heard when they were not going to have a Fort Fred any more, so Rick and Linda set this one up.
 
IT WAS GREAT!!! :)  Not many vendors ( 8 I think) and about 100 campers,
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Colonial Market Fair in WV Date: 01 May 2004 21:22:00 -0700 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII oooops...forgot to mention their website address.... cool event for those nearby http://gnarendezvous.org/ Randy ----- Original Message ----- Sent: 5/1/04 9:17:04 PM I went to the Market Fair and Rifle Frolic at Ft Loudoun, co-event with Ft Frederick. For a west coaster it was a neat experience. There were over 100 sutlers and over 700 campers. I was in Pennsylvania visiting my daughter, so spent a couple of days at Rdvs.. I fell in with a bunch of northern New Yorkers, who treated me like a long lost friend (most of my friends wished I were long lost...) I planned on buying my meals at the several food vendors there, but my new friends wouldn't let me spend a dime....they fed me like a King. I met several AMM brothers there. It was fun seeing how the easterners did things. I hope to return again next year.... to see my new rdvs friends, and to see my grandkids again. Yfab, Randy ----- Original Message ----- Vicki and I just got back from the Colonial Market Fair at Jacksons Mill in Weston, WV and did GREAT!! The event was sponsored by Rick and Linda Blizard. Last we heard when they were not going to have a Fort Fred any more, so Rick and Linda set this one up. IT WAS GREAT!!! :) Not many vendors ( 8 I think) and about 100 campers, ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
oooops...forgot to mention their website address.... cool event for those nearby    http://gnarendezvous.org/        Randy
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/1/04 9:17:04 PM
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Colonial Market Fair in WV

I went to the Market Fair and Rifle Frolic at Ft Loudoun, co-event with Ft Frederick.   For a west coaster it was a neat experience.  There were over 100 sutlers and over 700 campers.  I was in Pennsylvania visiting my daughter, so spent a couple of days at Rdvs..   I fell in with a bunch of northern New Yorkers, who treated me like a long lost friend (most of my friends wished I were long lost...)  I planned on buying my meals at the several food vendors there, but my new friends wouldn't let me spend a dime....they fed me like a King.  I met several AMM brothers there.  It was fun seeing how the easterners did things.  I hope to return again next year.... to see my new rdvs friends, and to see my grandkids again.   Yfab, Randy
 
 
----- Original Message -----
 
Vicki and I just got back from the Colonial Market Fair at Jacksons Mill in Weston, WV and did GREAT!! The event was sponsored by Rick and Linda Blizard. Last we heard when they were not going to have a Fort Fred any more, so Rick and Linda set this one up.
 
IT WAS GREAT!!! :)  Not many vendors ( 8 I think) and about 100 campers,
------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl Subject: Re: MtMan-List: horse hair ropes Date: 01 May 2004 22:41:16 -0600 > Does anybody know where I can pick up > some 1/4 inch horse hair ropes? > mike. > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html We make buffalo hair rope in difference sizes Contact us Thanks Joe -- Visit our web page absarokawesterndesign.com Call us for details on our custom tanning 307-455-2440 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Horsehair Ropes Date: 02 May 2004 02:13:20 EDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe, Sorry I accidentally deleted the post where you gave a source for horsehair rope. I thought it was your website, but searched through and couldn't find it there. Please post the info again, Thanks, Barney Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Joe, Sorry I accid= entally deleted the post where you gave a source for horsehair rope.<= /STRONG>
&n= bsp;
I thought it was y= our website, but searched through and couldn't find it there.
&n= bsp;
Please post the in= fo again, Thanks, Barney
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: RE: MtMan-List: North Star West Guns Date: 02 May 2004 07:59:49 -0600 (MDT) Brother Bear, Yep, those flinters he had are as good as they get and still be reasonably priced for a regular guy. You will not be sorry you bought one! Plus you will be supporting a fellow Montanan. My North Star West trade gun has never let me down! Don't forget though, they are smoothbores and you will be limited in your shooting. If you want to attend a fun Rendezvous and check more gear and guns out, you might drive over to the Wild Horse Rendezvous near Alberton, Montana on Memorial Day weekend. Anyone is allowed in, in case you're not fully outfitted yet with some primitive clothes. It's a shooting rondy and they let anyone walk with the shooters to see how it's done. You'd probably get to shoot some flinters too. Plus it's a beautiful drive. Contact me off list if you need directions, it's easy to find. Sincerely, bb > Visited that same table at the Great Falls Montana Gun Show today...except > I > started at the other side of the room from where Beaver Boy did, so I > found > the North Star West table early in my wanderings. They set a very high > standard for me and the rest of the show was just OK...still some modern > stuff that is fun. I was very impressed with what I say and the fact that > I > can do some of the building myself. I plan to put one of them on my > list...first time I have ever thought of going with a flintlock. > > Ed "Brother Bear" Stuart > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of >> beaverboy@sofast.net >> Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 11:01 PM >> To: hist_text@xmission.com >> Subject: MtMan-List: North Star West Guns >> >> >> Dear List, >> Went to the Great Falls Montana Gun Show today. Walked up and down >> row >> after row of mostly modern crapola when almost to the end I came to a >> table loaded with five or six very fine smoothbores! Turned out to be >> North Star West's table! Matt Denison was there with some fine examples >> of his guns and two pistols. >> I have to say that North Star guns have improved even more since I >> bought mine 7 years or so ago. >> The Officer's Model Musket is a dandy of a musket. Will make a fine >> turkey killer. The Trade Gun is as good as ever too. >> If any of you were wondering about North Star West guns, I know I >> bragged mine up and now they're even better! You can't beat them. >> bb >> >> >> http://www.northstarwest.com/ >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: amm1616@comcast.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: horse hair ropes Date: 02 May 2004 14:23:28 +0000 Joe, Looks like you have a nice place, but couldn't find the horse hair ropes on the web site. Could you give me some prices on a roughly 1/4- 3/8 inch thick rope about 10-12 feet long (minimum)? Off line if you want. thanks, mike. > > Does anybody know where I can pick up > > some 1/4 inch horse hair ropes? > > mike. > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > We make buffalo hair rope in difference sizes > > Contact us > > Thanks > Joe > > > -- > Visit our web page absarokawesterndesign.com > Call us for details on our custom tanning > 307-455-2440 > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mike Bowling" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: horse hair ropes Date: 02 May 2004 11:36:20 -0500 You might try Ed Wilde of Wilde Weavery & Trade Co. Phone# 816-524-7374, or email ewide@tyrell.net He had some at the eastern last year. Mad Mike ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 11:41 PM > > Does anybody know where I can pick up > > some 1/4 inch horse hair ropes? > > mike. > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > We make buffalo hair rope in difference sizes > > Contact us > > Thanks > Joe > > > -- > Visit our web page absarokawesterndesign.com > Call us for details on our custom tanning > 307-455-2440 > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: MtMan-List: Lyman Plains Pistol Load Date: 02 May 2004 09:37:50 -0600 (MDT) Dear List, I have a Lyman Plains pistol in .54 caliber. What is a good ff load for target shooting? I know these guns can shoot good, I need to get it sighted in for a shooting rondy coming up. It has a 9" inch barrel with a 1-30" inch twist. Thanks for any info in advance. bb ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "RICK TABOR" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Lyman Plains Pistol Load Date: 02 May 2004 10:47:48 -0700 bb, You are right those pistols can shoot. I have won a number of matches with mine. the load I use is 30gr of 3F, a .015 pillow ticking patch, and a .530 ball. Good Luck. Rick _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page – FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fred Miller Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lyman Plains Pistol Load Date: 02 May 2004 14:26:06 -0400 On Sunday 02 May 2004 1:47 pm, RICK TABOR wrote: > bb, > You are right those pistols can shoot. I have won a number of matches > with mine. the load I use is 30gr of 3F, a .015 pillow ticking patch, and a > .530 ball. Good Luck. NOT fffg, if you want to make sure the nipple never blows out, etc. 30 to 50gr. of ffg is safe. Fred -- "The only secure Microsoft software is what's still shrink-wrapped in their warehouse..." (Forno) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "RP Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lyman Plains Pistol Load Date: 02 May 2004 12:32:19 -0700 Fred, Not fffg? Why not? I and most of my hunting shooting buddies have been using 3fg in our .50 cal. and larger guns for a few decades now. Charges up around 70 to 100 without ill effect. Why would a wimpy little 30 grain charge of 3fg be of concern? Actually I use 2fg in my shot guns of 14 ga. and larger but 3fg in anything smaller and I shoot .62 cal on down. One picks the granulation that works best in a particular gun not because it is inherently dangerous. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horsehair Ropes Date: 02 May 2004 14:04:47 -0600 > Joe, Sorry I accidentally deleted the post where you gave a source for > horsehair rope. > > I thought it was your website, but searched through and couldn't find it > there. > > Please post the info again, Thanks, Barney > I mentioned, that we make buffalo hair rope joe ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fred Miller Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lyman Plains Pistol Load Date: 02 May 2004 18:20:40 -0400 On Sunday 02 May 2004 3:32 pm, RP Lahti wrote: > Fred, > > Not fffg? Why not? I and most of my hunting shooting buddies have been > using 3fg in our .50 cal. and larger guns for a few decades now. Charges up > around 70 to 100 without ill effect. Why would a wimpy little 30 grain > charge of 3fg be of concern? > > Actually I use 2fg in my shot guns of 14 ga. and larger but 3fg in anything > smaller and I shoot .62 cal on down. One picks the granulation that works > best in a particular gun not because it is inherently dangerous. Studies and tests over the years, including sectioned barrels (I've done a fair number of them) show that breech errosion is excessive in cal. above .40 (some say .45) with fffg. It's well documented. SOME barrels like CVA and Traditions are UNSAFE to burn fffg, IMHO because breechplugs often aren't threaded more than just a couple of threads (aren't safe with ffg either) and the Spanish steel is very soft. As always, there are those who will defend the use of fffg, which is fine. It's their fireams and their life. Fred -- "The only secure Microsoft software is what's still shrink-wrapped in their warehouse..." (Forno) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "RP Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lyman Plains Pistol Load Date: 02 May 2004 17:17:42 -0700 Anyone who is shooting a gun with a breech plug that only has a couple of threads engaged is their own worse enemy and it has nothing to do with whether they are using 3fg or 2fg. There are always those who will place the blame in the wrong quarter, blaming the powder granulation rather than the quality of the gun construction. Any granulation as you say is not safe in a poorly constructed gun. 3fg no more so than 2fg. Going by granulation designation is no guard against poor workmanship. The Swiss 2fg is much hotter than many of the 3fg granulations in other brands. Probably even the Swiss 1.5 granulation will be found to be hotter than many other brands of 3fg. There is no substitute for quality workmanship. Properly fitted breech plugs and nipples along with vent liners will not be a problem with most any reasonable load and granulation. Taking any of these parts out on a regular basis can and will wear out the threads such that they may very well let loose at some time in the future. They should be properly installed, the threads protected with a good anti-seize or grease, etc. and left alone until inspection is more important than just leaving them alone and that should be rare. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fred Miller Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lyman Plains Pistol Load Date: 02 May 2004 21:51:33 -0400 On Sunday 02 May 2004 8:17 pm, RP Lahti wrote: > Traditions are UNSAFE to burn fffg, IMHO because breechplugs often aren't > threaded more than just a couple of threads (aren't safe with ffg either) > and > the Spanish steel is very soft.> > > Anyone who is shooting a gun with a breech plug that only has a couple of > threads engaged is their own worse enemy and it has nothing to do with > whether they are using 3fg or 2fg. There are always those who will place > the blame in the wrong quarter, blaming the powder granulation rather than > the quality of the gun construction. Any granulation as you say is not safe > in a poorly constructed gun. 3fg no more so than 2fg. You may remember the recall from CVA not that many years ago.....that's what in part it was for. > Going by granulation designation is no guard against poor workmanship. The > Swiss 2fg is much hotter than many of the 3fg granulations in other brands. > Probably even the Swiss 1.5 granulation will be found to be hotter than > many other brands of 3fg. I use Swiss ffg in .40 and up. I do use 30gr. of Swiss fffg in my .36 longrifle. > There is no substitute for quality workmanship. Properly fitted breech > plugs and nipples along with vent liners will not be a problem with most > any reasonable load and granulation. Taking any of these parts out on a > regular basis can and will wear out the threads such that they may very > well let loose at some time in the future. They should be properly > installed, the threads protected with a good anti-seize or grease, etc. and > left alone until inspection is more important than just leaving them alone > and that should be rare. I mentioned it because there are still a number of those firearms around that DIDN'T go for service, and the use of fffg is CERTAIN to cause problems. Fred -- "The only secure Microsoft software is what's still shrink-wrapped in their warehouse..." (Forno) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry" Subject: MtMan-List: checked fabric Date: 03 May 2004 14:23:27 -0600 what size checks and what colors are appropriate for our time period. seen some half inch red checks at Wal-Mart, but decided to check first. thanks. larry ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: Lyman Plains Pistol Load Date: 03 May 2004 15:37:46 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C43124.95826170 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred I sure would like to see some of that documentation. As Lahti and others pointed out, it is the quality of the piece = overall and the amount of the load that might cause problems. Acknowledged that when CVA first came on the market their stuff was = very shoddy. But it has been quite a few years since they improved and = put in proper breeches. Their percussion rifles even have the drum = drilled through the breech plug acting as a lock.=20 There are things about them that purists might not like but they are = OK shooters. Can't speak for the imported Traditions in any fashion.=20 But properly charged one is as well off with 2 or 3 Fg. Frank ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C43124.95826170 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    <It's well documented. SOME barrels like CVA = and=20
Traditions are UNSAFE to burn fffg, >
 
Fred
    I sure would like to see some of that=20 documentation.
    As Lahti and others pointed out, it is the = quality of=20 the piece overall and the amount of the load that might cause = problems.
    Acknowledged that when CVA first came on the = market=20 their stuff was very shoddy. But it has been quite a few years since = they=20 improved and put in proper breeches. Their percussion rifles even have = the drum=20 drilled through the breech plug acting as a lock.
    There are things about them that purists might = not like=20 but they are OK shooters.
    Can't speak for the imported Traditions in any = fashion.=20
    But properly charged one is as well off with 2 = or 3=20 Fg.
Frank
------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C43124.95826170-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pare Bowlegs Subject: Re: MtMan-List: checked fabric Date: 03 May 2004 13:41:13 -0700 (PDT) --0-194315456-1083616873=:43042 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Check with Hancock Fabrics, JoAnn's Fabrics and Cranston Village. They're all on - line. I just seen it at one of them the other day. Looked like good home spun. I believe it was a 1" check. Pare- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs --0-194315456-1083616873=:43042 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Check with Hancock Fabrics, JoAnn's Fabrics and Cranston Village. They're all on - line. I just seen it at one of them the other day. Looked like good home spun. I believe it was a 1" check.
 
Pare-

 

Do you Yahoo!?
Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs --0-194315456-1083616873=:43042-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "De Santis, Nick" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Lyman Plains Pistol Load Date: 03 May 2004 13:53:01 -0700 BB, Just one more data point to add. I shoot a 50 cal cap lock and was doing as some have suggested, about 30g FFF. But experimenting with loads, patches etc. I found that cutting the load in half worked very well. Not that it will work for everyone, but in trying to find where your shooter settles in for you, try loading light. Yours, Travler -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of beaverboy@sofast.net Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 8:38 AM Dear List, I have a Lyman Plains pistol in .54 caliber. What is a good ff load for target shooting? I know these guns can shoot good, I need to get it sighted in for a shooting rondy coming up. It has a 9" inch barrel with a 1-30" inch twist. Thanks for any info in advance. bb ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "De Santis, Nick" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Lyman Plains Pistol Load Date: 03 May 2004 13:53:01 -0700 BB, Just one more data point to add. I shoot a 50 cal cap lock and was doing as some have suggested, about 30g FFF. But experimenting with loads, patches etc. I found that cutting the load in half worked very well. Not that it will work for everyone, but in trying to find where your shooter settles in for you, try loading light. Yours, Travler -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of beaverboy@sofast.net Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 8:38 AM Dear List, I have a Lyman Plains pistol in .54 caliber. What is a good ff load for target shooting? I know these guns can shoot good, I need to get it sighted in for a shooting rondy coming up. It has a 9" inch barrel with a 1-30" inch twist. Thanks for any info in advance. bb ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: checked fabric Date: 03 May 2004 17:42:47 EDT --part1_3b.46ded39b.2dc816d7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Larry Red, black and blue check do show up on trade list. Half to one inch I would think would work well I do not know what is the most correct for the size of the checks. I do know that a true check is hard to find nowadays at most stores cause I have kept an eye out for them. You do see a lot of plaids and other types of check material but not much of what I call a true check with a clear checker board type pattern to it. So if ya do find it in a Cotton then I would get it. Crazy Cyot --part1_3b.46ded39b.2dc816d7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Larry
Red, black and blue check do show up on trade list. Half to one inch I w= ould think would work well I do not know what is the most correct for the si= ze of the checks.
I do know that a true check is hard to find nowadays at most stores caus= e I have kept an eye out for them. You do see a lot of plaids and other type= s of check material but not much of what I call a true check with a clear ch= ecker board type pattern to it. So if ya do find it in a Cotton then I would= get it.
Crazy Cyot --part1_3b.46ded39b.2dc816d7_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fred Miller Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lyman Plains Pistol Load Date: 03 May 2004 19:33:04 -0400 On Monday 03 May 2004 4:37 pm, Frank Fusco wrote: > Traditions are UNSAFE to burn fffg, > > > Fred > I sure would like to see some of that documentation. > As Lahti and others pointed out, it is the quality of the piece overall > and the amount of the load that might cause problems. Acknowledged that [snip] Only a part of the problem! fffg burns much hotter and faster than ffg. With a larger projectile, pressure behind that projectile is even greater. There is always blow-by....it's unavoidable, but with fffg in larger cal., it is increased, and breech erosion becomes a bigger problem. I really don't care if he nor anyone else wants to use it. I don't care to "pick a fight" with anyone. I simply mentioned it because it IS a factor of barrel longevity, whether some like it or not, and it CAN be a safety issue with some firearms. Fred -- "The only secure Microsoft software is what's still shrink-wrapped in their warehouse..." (Forno) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Brandl Subject: MtMan-List: Need infor for rendezvous Date: 03 May 2004 20:48:54 -0600 Please reply to this guy if you know anything about Western Nationals or other rendezvous out west. His email address is 17/23 Productions if1723@tele2.fr Hi Jo, thank you for your kindness for helping me. As I said before, the idea is to film a rendez-vous with mountain men. I am not looking for filming specially a big rendez-vous. A normal one would be great. If I say that it's because I prefer to come in june , I have other filming to do at this date. Of course , if I don't find anything in June I will come in July... I also think that, if I ask to film a normal rendez-vous, it will be easier to have the autorisations for doing it. Well if you get some names end contacts, it would be great. I think to come just with a soudman so we will be just two of us. I am interested by all the rendez-vous in June and even in July. Thank you Jo I hope to read you soon. Best regards Fred -- Visit our web page absarokawesterndesign.com Call us for details on our custom tanning 307-455-2440 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: checked fabric Date: 03 May 2004 23:23:03 EDT In a message dated 5/3/04 4:35:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, L.Renney@bresnan.net writes: << what size checks and what colors are appropriate for our time period. seen some half inch red checks at Wal-Mart, but decided to check first. thanks. larry >> Larry, Having done a good bit of sewing and digging into cloth patterns for period correct materials from F&I war on up thru RMFT, I can tell you that - Yes, 1/2 inch checks were made prior to and during the fru trade era. Blue, red and green have been listed as trade items to natives since the early 1700's. Checks were common from way early on until well into the early 20th century. The MATERIAL you want to buy would be the first concern. Is it woven (checked on both sides) rather than printed? Second concern is placing the material in the historical context in which your persona lives and works. Would your persona have a shirt of such a material? Can you locate provenance for the material on trade lists or as shirts pre-made coming west and bartered at a rendezvous or trading post in the area your persona lived and worked? Good luck, C.Kent ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "RICK TABOR" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lyman Plains Pistol Load Date: 04 May 2004 10:06:02 -0700 Fred, A Lyman is not a CVA, and according to Sam Fadalas' new book"THE GUN DIGEST,BLACK POWDER LOADS Vol.4" The recommened load for a .54 Lyman pistol is 30-40 gr of 3F. I tend to put a little more credence in what Sam has to say. Rick _________________________________________________________________ Stop worrying about overloading your inbox - get MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=hotmail/es2&ST=1/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "RP Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lyman Plains Pistol Load Date: 04 May 2004 10:46:04 -0700 Fred, Ain't gonna pick a fight with me or visa versa. I just shared my take on it for what that is worth. Blow-by and etc. are considerations with any setup. The more there is, no doubt the more barrel erosion there will be. As to the breech plug threads getting eroded or even the vent liner threads getting eroded, that is a function of how they were installed. As you point out and others confirm, some of the early offerings of some companies were not well made. I presume that is not the case any more. We certainly do not hear much if any talk of such erosion in the guns being shot now-a-days. And anyone putting a gun together from parts is likely to have some direction or instruction on how to do it right so such guns are not likely to be subject to thread erosion. As to barrel erosion in the "chamber" area and ahead of that, I can't say I have any experience with such. I'm sure that a load that shows burned through patches is either experiencing cutting of the patch on too sharp rifling or blow-by due to too thin a patch or too loose a patch/ball combo and needs to be adjusted as it is likely not all that accurate anyway. With blow-by around a loose patch/ball combo eliminated, bore erosion should not be a significant problem. So it seems that erosion of metal from gas cutting comes from a number of factors that are if anything only exacerbated by a hotter powder granulation. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fred Miller Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lyman Plains Pistol Load Date: 04 May 2004 14:55:45 -0400 On Tuesday 04 May 2004 1:46 pm, RP Lahti wrote: > Fred, > > Ain't gonna pick a fight with me or visa versa. I just shared my take on it > for what that is worth. > > Blow-by and etc. are considerations with any setup. The more there is, no > doubt the more barrel erosion there will be. As to the breech plug threads > getting eroded or even the vent liner threads getting eroded, that is a > function of how they were installed. As you point out and others confirm, > some of the early offerings of some companies were not well made. I presume > that is not the case any more. We certainly do not hear much if any talk of Well, yes and no. :) I did get a chance to take a look at a newer CVA last Fall, and it was in 4 1/2 threads best we could determine. An improvement, but I don't know if Traditions has made any changes or not. > such erosion in the guns being shot now-a-days. And anyone putting a gun > together from parts is likely to have some direction or instruction on how > to do it right so such guns are not likely to be subject to thread erosion. Most often not, but a breechplug that would only screw in by 2 threads IS UNsafe, and there are still an unknown number of them out there. > As to barrel erosion in the "chamber" area and ahead of that, I can't say I > have any experience with such. I'm sure that a load that shows burned > through patches is either experiencing cutting of the patch on too sharp > rifling or blow-by due to too thin a patch or too loose a patch/ball combo > and needs to be adjusted as it is likely not all that accurate anyway. With > blow-by around a loose patch/ball combo eliminated, bore erosion should not > be a significant problem. You can NEVER eliminate blow-by. If you had a ball and patch that would do that, you'd never get it down the bore. ALL MZ barrels suffer from it, but it's a matter of how much blow-by one gets. fffg increases it considerably. I wish I had the pics. of all the sections I had, but don't. Sometime back, I'd cleaned my CD-RW disks and started a backup when I lost the hard drive that those were on......along with some other data which has been a real bummer. Try talking to the IRS when you've lost a lot of your records!! 'Good reason to have 2 burned CD's of all records at ALL times!! 'One time I didn't follow my own rule. At any rate, what they showed was the differences in bores (ffg and fffg). You could see where there steel got so hot with fffg that there is a case hardening effect, which is removed with subsequent shots. I can take macro shots as close as 1/2" from the subject and contol lighting with a ringling with exposure thru the lens........Canon glass is goooood stuff. 'Sent to a "pretty" shot under private cover so you can see some of my work. :) > So it seems that erosion of metal from gas cutting comes from a number of > factors that are if anything only exacerbated by a hotter powder > granulation. Yes it does.......the hot gases and HOT embers as they pass by the patched ball take their toll - slowly, but they do "the job." Someday, I hope to be able to photograph barrels like I was given before and "tuck away" the pics. Fred -- "The only secure Microsoft software is what's still shrink-wrapped in their warehouse..." (Forno) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "RP Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Lyman Plains Pistol Load Date: 04 May 2004 14:26:17 -0700 Fred, Thanks for the picture. It was quite beautiful. Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bob Funkhouser" Subject: MtMan-List: Stock Finish Date: 04 May 2004 21:32:11 -0500 I am applying a stock finish to a newly built rifle and have used a spirit stain followed by applications of Plinkton's oil diluted with mineral spirits. The oil tends to soften the stain and has caused concern of lightening the finish if too much stain is wiped off as the additional coats of finish is applied (with 48 hours to dry between coats). The wood is a dense maple so doesn't offer much penetration of anything. I seem to remember reading about using a dressing of beeswax and linseed oil as a finish but haven't been able to find anything in my limited files. I used to use a dressing of beeswax/linseed oil/turpentine to dress the finish of military rifles when I was shooting them a lot a few years ago but would be concerned about the turpentine with a fresh finish. Could anyone help? Would sure appreciate any information or tips you could offer. Regards, Bob ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fred Miller Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Stock Finish Date: 04 May 2004 22:44:21 -0400 On Tuesday 04 May 2004 10:32 pm, Bob Funkhouser wrote: > I am applying a stock finish to a newly built rifle and have used a spirit > stain followed by applications of Plinkton's oil diluted with mineral > spirits. The oil tends to soften the stain and has caused concern of > lightening the finish if too much stain is wiped off as the additional > coats of finish is applied (with 48 hours to dry between coats). The wood > is a dense maple so doesn't offer much penetration of anything. I seem to > remember reading about using a dressing of beeswax and linseed oil as a > finish but haven't been able to find anything in my limited files. I used > to use a dressing of beeswax/linseed oil/turpentine to dress the finish of > military rifles when I was shooting them a lot a few years ago but would be > concerned about the turpentine with a fresh finish. Could anyone help? > Would sure appreciate any information or tips you could offer. I use a finish that is applied for well over a month - but it's depth etc. is unsurpassed. If interested, I can help. It is much more work than what you're doing, but a whole lot better. Fred -- "The only secure Microsoft software is what's still shrink-wrapped in their warehouse..." (Forno) ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Stock Finish Date: 04 May 2004 21:19:47 -0600 Mix them till you have a kind of paste, put it on and hand rub it in. Don On Tuesday, May 4, 2004 8:32 PM, Bob Funkhouser = wrote: >I am applying a stock finish to a newly built rifle and have used a = spirit >stain followed by applications of Plinkton's oil diluted with mineral >spirits. The oil tends to soften the stain and has caused concern of >lightening the finish if too much stain is wiped off as the additional = coats >of finish is applied (with 48 hours to dry between coats). The wood is a >dense maple so doesn't offer much penetration of anything. I seem to >remember reading about using a dressing of beeswax and linseed oil as a >finish but haven't been able to find anything in my limited files. I = used >to use a dressing of beeswax/linseed oil/turpentine to dress the finish = of >military rifles when I was shooting them a lot a few years ago but would = be >concerned about the turpentine with a fresh finish. Could anyone help? >Would sure appreciate any information or tips you could offer. > >Regards, > >Bob > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jim Zeigler" Subject: MtMan-List: trade gun question Date: 05 May 2004 19:23:37 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C432D6.77204450 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello List:: Not having seen many original trade guns, I would = like to know if the trigger and guard were browned (blued??) on the = original guns, also what about the bolts and screws...thanks in = advance...jim ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C432D6.77204450 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
Hello List:: Not having seen many original trade = guns, I=20 would like to know if the trigger and guard were browned (blued??) = on the=20 original guns, also what about the bolts and screws...thanks in=20 advance...jim

------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C432D6.77204450-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: AvalancheLodge@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Rendezvous Magazine Date: 05 May 2004 20:32:02 EDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I wanted to ask anyone on the group if they know where I can purchase some back issues of "Rendezvous" magazine. I dont know much about the magazine (how many issues there were, when it was published, etc.) but I have been told that it contained some great articles. I am particularly interested in finding a copy of an article that Wes Housler did on hide tipis. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. Ron Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello,
 
I wanted to ask anyone on the group if they know where I can purchase s= ome back issues of "Rendezvous" magazine.  I dont know much about the m= agazine (how many issues there were, when it was published, etc.) but I have= been told that it contained some great articles.  I am particularly in= terested in finding a copy of an article that Wes Housler did on hide tipis.=   Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks.
 
Ron
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Monte Holder" Subject: MtMan-List: tobacco boxes Date: 06 May 2004 12:18:47 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C43364.486C74B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have not been able to get any Irish Black Rope Tobacco as of yet, but = I was able to order some other kinds and got a tin of Liberty and a tin = of Cross eyed Cricket (just because I liked the name). When they = arrived, the tobacco was in like a coffee filter inside the tin of both = (the cricket kind has a plastic lid, and was like a catfood can, which = was not what I was thinking). This reminded me of the brass or steel = tobacco box I have that has a magnifying glass in the lid. It had a = note saying "don't put tobacco in this unless it is in a pouch". What is it about the tins or boxes that it does to the tobacco? Also the sonic wall is down at school so I'm going to try to order some = of that Irish Black rope stuff even though it says its not for the faint = of heart.... been nice knowin' you all Monte HOlder Saline County MO ----- Original Message -----=20 From: DOUBLE EDGE FORGE=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 1:53 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tobacco I carry the Irish Black Rope tobac. Can be smoked in a pipe or = chewed.... D ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C43364.486C74B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have not been able to get any Irish Black Rope Tobacco as of yet, = but I=20 was able to order some other kinds and got a tin of Liberty and a tin of = Cross=20 eyed Cricket (just because I liked the name).  When they arrived, = the=20 tobacco was in like a coffee filter inside the tin of both (the cricket = kind has=20 a plastic lid, and was like a catfood can, which was not what I was=20 thinking).  This reminded me of the brass or steel tobacco box I = have that=20 has a magnifying glass in the lid.  It had a note saying "don't put = tobacco=20 in this unless it is in a pouch".
 
What is it about the tins or boxes that it does to the = tobacco?
 
Also the sonic wall is down at school so I'm going to try to order = some of=20 that Irish Black rope stuff even though it says its not for the faint of = heart....
 
been nice knowin' you all
 
Monte HOlder
Saline County MO
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 DOUBLE EDGE=20 FORGE
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 = 1:53=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = tobacco

I carry the Irish Black Rope = tobac. Can=20 be smoked in a pipe or chewed....
 
D
------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C43364.486C74B0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "DOUBLE EDGE FORGE" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tobacco boxes Date: 06 May 2004 13:19:43 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A6_01C4336C.CB8E4640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Monte The Irish black rope not only is a fine smoke, it is a tolerable = chew... D Double Edge Forge www.bright.net/~deforge1 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Monte Holder=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 1:18 PM Subject: MtMan-List: tobacco boxes I have not been able to get any Irish Black Rope Tobacco as of yet, = but I was able to order some other kinds and got a tin of Liberty and a = tin of Cross eyed Cricket (just because I liked the name). When they = arrived, the tobacco was in like a coffee filter inside the tin of both = (the cricket kind has a plastic lid, and was like a catfood can, which = was not what I was thinking). This reminded me of the brass or steel = tobacco box I have that has a magnifying glass in the lid. It had a = note saying "don't put tobacco in this unless it is in a pouch". What is it about the tins or boxes that it does to the tobacco? Also the sonic wall is down at school so I'm going to try to order = some of that Irish Black rope stuff even though it says its not for the = faint of heart.... been nice knowin' you all Monte HOlder Saline County MO ----- Original Message -----=20 From: DOUBLE EDGE FORGE=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 1:53 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tobacco I carry the Irish Black Rope tobac. Can be smoked in a pipe or = chewed.... D ------=_NextPart_000_00A6_01C4336C.CB8E4640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Monte
 
 The Irish black = rope not only=20 is a fine smoke, it is a tolerable chew...
 
D
Double Edge=20 Forge
www.bright.net/~deforge1
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Monte Holder
Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2004 = 1:18=20 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: tobacco = boxes

I have not been able to get any Irish Black Rope Tobacco as of = yet, but I=20 was able to order some other kinds and got a tin of Liberty and a tin = of Cross=20 eyed Cricket (just because I liked the name).  When they arrived, = the=20 tobacco was in like a coffee filter inside the tin of both (the = cricket kind=20 has a plastic lid, and was like a catfood can, which was not what I = was=20 thinking).  This reminded me of the brass or steel tobacco box I = have=20 that has a magnifying glass in the lid.  It had a note saying = "don't put=20 tobacco in this unless it is in a pouch".
 
What is it about the tins or boxes that it does to the = tobacco?
 
Also the sonic wall is down at school so I'm going to try to = order some=20 of that Irish Black rope stuff even though it says its not for the = faint of=20 heart....
 
been nice knowin' you all
 
Monte HOlder
Saline County MO
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 DOUBLE EDGE=20 FORGE
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 = 1:53=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = tobacco

I carry the Irish Black = Rope tobac. Can=20 be smoked in a pipe or chewed....
 
D
= ------=_NextPart_000_00A6_01C4336C.CB8E4640-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thom Frazier" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: trade gun question Date: 06 May 2004 15:59:09 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C43383.115482A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim The short answer is "no" not the English or "Northwest" trade guns used by the English to trade for furs. They were the "bic lighters" of the time and generally cost was kept to a minimum. Weeping Heart Gunn Shoppe Thom Frazier 36732 Oak Point Rd. New York Mills MN 56567 218-385-2074 mnthom@arvig.net -----Original Message----- From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Jim Zeigler Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 6:24 PM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: MtMan-List: trade gun question Hello List:: Not having seen many original trade guns, I would like to know if the trigger and guard were browned (blued??) on the original guns, also what about the bolts and screws...thanks in advance...jim ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C43383.115482A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jim The short = answer is "no"=20 not the English or "Northwest" trade guns used by the English to trade = for=20 furs.  They were the "bic lighters" of the time and generally cost = was kept=20 to a minimum.

Weeping Heart Gunn Shoppe
Thom Frazier
36732 Oak = Point=20 Rd.
New York Mills MN = 56567
218-385-2074
mnthom@arvig.net=20

-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Jim=20 Zeigler
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 6:24 PM
To:=20 hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: MtMan-List: trade gun=20 question

 
Hello List:: Not having seen many original = trade guns,=20 I would like to know if the trigger and guard were browned = (blued??) on=20 the original guns, also what about the bolts and screws...thanks = in=20 advance...jim

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C43383.115482A0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: Re:Beavers Date: 06 May 2004 18:45:38 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C4339A.52FE6380 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Any N.A Beavers on the list Beaver 473 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C4339A.52FE6380 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Any N.A Beavers on the = list
 
Beaver 473
 
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C4339A.52FE6380-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "RP Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tobacco boxes Date: 06 May 2004 15:45:57 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0081_01C43381.38D77AA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is enough salts and moisture in the tobacco to get the brass and = steel corroding which will taint the tobacco something fierce. Besides = messing up the container. A "tinned" can won't corrode as readily. A = lacquered brass container won't mess with the tobacco quite as bad as = long as the coating stays intact. But any break in that layer will ruin = the tobacco. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------=_NextPart_000_0081_01C43381.38D77AA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<What is it about the tins or boxes that it does to the=20 tobacco?>
 
There is enough salts = and moisture=20 in the tobacco to get the brass and steel corroding which will taint the = tobacco=20 something fierce. Besides messing up the container. A "tinned" can won't = corrode=20 as readily. A lacquered brass container won't mess with the tobacco = quite as bad=20 as long as the coating stays intact.  But any break in that layer = will ruin=20 the tobacco.
 
YMOS
Capt. = Lahti'
 
------=_NextPart_000_0081_01C43381.38D77AA0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Beavers Date: 07 May 2004 10:50:52 EDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/6/2004 3:44:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time, wjackson2@woh.rr.com writes: Any N.A Beavers on the list I've got my medallion, but for the life of me can't remember my number. Must be the after-effects of the incident that got me inducted ;) ...... IIRC it was being handled by someone at Smoke & Fire. Do you know if that's still the case? I'd like to contact whoever is still doing it. Barney Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 5/6/2004 3:44:58 PM Pacific Daylight Time, wjackson2= @woh.rr.com writes:
Any N.A Beavers on the list
 
I've got my m= edallion, but for the life of me can't remember my number. Must be the after= -effects of the incident that got me inducted ;) ......
&n= bsp;
IIRC it was being=20= handled by someone at Smoke & Fire. Do you know if that's still the case= ? I'd like to contact whoever is still doing it.
&n= bsp;
Barney
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Beavers Date: 07 May 2004 20:46:58 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C43474.70954D20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Contact me, with you name and I can look it up MadJack ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C43474.70954D20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Contact me, with you name and I can = look it=20 up
MadJack
------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C43474.70954D20-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ChickenThief Subject: MtMan-List: Tobacco Question Date: 07 May 2004 21:15:55 -0400 Anyone able to help as to a supply & why it shouldn't be stored in brass or steel container without pouch >---------------------------------------------- >I have not been able to get any Irish Black Rope Tobacco as of yet, but = >I was able to order some other kinds and got a tin of Liberty and a tin = >of Cross eyed Cricket (just because I liked the name). When they = >arrived, the tobacco was in like a coffee filter inside the tin of both = >(the cricket kind has a plastic lid, and was like a catfood can, which = >was not what I was thinking). This reminded me of the brass or steel = >tobacco box I have that has a magnifying glass in the lid. It had a = >note saying "don't put tobacco in this unless it is in a pouch". > >What is it about the tins or boxes that it does to the tobacco? > >Also the sonic wall is down at school so I'm going to try to order some = >of that Irish Black rope stuff even though it says its not for the faint = >of heart.... > > The Irish black rope not only is a fine smoke, it is a tolerable = >chew... > > I carry the Irish Black Rope tobac. Can be smoked in a pipe or >chewed.... > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: tobbaco boxes Date: 07 May 2004 21:21:17 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C43479.3BCA7E30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable < This reminded me of the brass or steel =3D tobacco box I have that has a magnifying glass in the lid. It had a =3D note saying "don't put tobacco in this unless it is in a pouch". What is it about the tins or boxes that it does to the tobacco?> Those boxes were/are made by Ted Cash. When I still smoked a pipe I = kept tobbaco in mine for years without any bad effects, except to my = lungs. I still keep some in it for demo purposes and there is no sign of = corrosion.=20 My box is german silver, that may explain why. Brass would probably = grow verdigris. Frank ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C43479.3BCA7E30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
        < This reminded me of the = brass or=20 steel =3D
tobacco box I have that has a magnifying glass in the = lid.  It=20 had a =3D
note saying "don't put tobacco in this unless it is in a=20 pouch".

What is it about the tins or boxes that it does to the=20 tobacco?>
 
    Those boxes were/are made by Ted Cash. When I = still=20 smoked a pipe I kept tobbaco in mine for years without any bad effects, = except=20 to my lungs. I still keep some in it for demo purposes and there is = no sign=20 of corrosion.
    My box is german silver, that may explain why. = Brass=20 would probably grow verdigris.
Frank
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C43479.3BCA7E30-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Horses Date: 09 May 2004 16:44:26 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00EE_01C435E4.E3D8FA40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a new filly that is a loner with the other horses. Has anyone = had any experience with that type. Is there any troulbe to watch for or = nice things to expect? Wynn Ormond ------=_NextPart_000_00EE_01C435E4.E3D8FA40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have a new filly that is a loner with = the other=20 horses.  Has anyone had any experience with that type.  Is = there any=20 troulbe to watch for or nice things to expect?
 
Wynn Ormond
 
------=_NextPart_000_00EE_01C435E4.E3D8FA40-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MarkLoader@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horses Date: 10 May 2004 13:05:36 EDT --part1_1c7.18ecf711.2dd11060_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wynn My wife has a horse that is a loner and it is a great thing because its bond is with her. If your were at the national on the land you would have seen the special relation they had. She can get up on a rail or rock away from the other horses while they are all eating, call him and he will leave his feed and come up beside her so she can get on. Bridle-less and bareback and go for a ride away from the other horses with no opposition. The most important thing you can do is spend the time it take to become his buddy. That means put your heart in your hand and rub her all over. From where the apples go into where the apples come out. And I mean the literally. If you gently rub downward next to her tail. She will move the tail to the side so you can touch her rectum. A horse that is dependent on you and not the other horses is on you can depend on. Enjoy the ride. If you live in Cheyenne we have our horses just east of Wellington, CO If we can help let us know Mark "Roadkill" Loader #1849 Baker Party Booshway & Cindy "horse dancer" --part1_1c7.18ecf711.2dd11060_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wynn=20
My wife has a horse that is a loner and it is a great thing because its=20= bond is with her. If your were at the national on the land you would have se= en the special relation they had. She can get up on a rail or rock away from= the other horses while they are all eating, call him and he will leave his=20= feed and come up beside her so she can get on. Bridle-less and bareback and=20= go for a ride away from the other horses with no opposition. The most import= ant thing you can do is spend the time it take to become his buddy. That mea= ns put your heart in your hand and rub her all over. From where the apples g= o into where the apples come out. And I mean the literally. If you gently ru= b downward next to her tail. She will move the tail to the side so you can t= ouch her rectum.  A horse that is dependent on you and not the other ho= rses is on you can depend on. Enjoy the ride. If you live in Cheyenne we hav= e our horses just east of Wellington, CO

If we can help let us know Mark "Roadkill" Loader #1849 Baker Party Boos= hway
& Cindy "horse dancer" --part1_1c7.18ecf711.2dd11060_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Teter Subject: MtMan-List: Wyn Ormond Date: 10 May 2004 13:26:02 -0700 (PDT) --0-50718999-1084220762=:70756 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Wynn Ormond wrote:Did you make it back it civilization yet? Wyn, Thanks for the note about Davud Mathew. Yeah, I'm back in body if not in spirit. I don't have a boy child so David was it. We shot guns and rode horses, cooked hotdogs in my buffalo hide teepee Christmas eve while he was wrapped up in buffalo robes. He loved it. He spent Christmas with us this year. I bought him a pony for Christmas and he held a picture of her while he was dying and when the casket was closed the picture was still in his hand). David Mathew was all boy and I was looking forward to making a mountain man out of him. He loved Wyoming and planned to come out this summer all by himself to camp and pack. He loved my wife and daughter and gave me credit for being more than I am, so he made all of us feel good about being alive. I am so much more affected by his death than I can say. The world is different now. I think it will never be the same. But it was a merciful death and I praise God for His mercy. Can I send you an apishimore? Maybe that will stop the pinching. Let me know. Your friend, Lee Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs --0-50718999-1084220762=:70756 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Wynn Ormond wrote:Did you make it back it
civilization yet?
 
Wyn,
Thanks for the note about Davud Mathew.
 

Yeah, I'm back in body if not in spirit.
I don't have a boy child so David was it. We shot guns and rode horses,
cooked hotdogs in my buffalo hide teepee Christmas eve while he was
wrapped up in buffalo robes. He loved it. He spent Christmas with us this
year. I bought him a pony for Christmas and he held a picture of
her while he was dying and when the casket was closed the
picture was still in his hand). David Mathew was all boy and I was looking forward to
making a mountain man out of him. He loved Wyoming and planned to come out this summer all by himself to camp and pack. He
loved my wife and daughter and gave me credit for being more than I am,
so he made all of us feel good about being alive. I am so much more
affected by his death than I can say. The world is different now. I think
it will never be the same.

But it was a merciful death and I praise God for His mercy.

Can I send you an apishimore? Maybe that will stop the pinching. Let me
know.

Your friend,

Lee

Do you Yahoo!?
Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs --0-50718999-1084220762=:70756-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Wyn Ormond Date: 10 May 2004 22:13:23 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C436DC.024EF310 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lee You sure know how to make a grown man cry. It is one of the finest = things in life to be able to be a part of a young life like you were = with David. You are right it will never be the same, but it wont always = hurt as bad as it does now. You have my permission to do what you need = to do to help yourself through this, and I will appreciate it, but I = don't deserve it. You have been pretty darn good to me already. See you on the trail Wynn Ormond ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lee Teter=20 To: Mountain Men=20 Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 2:26 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Wyn Ormond Wynn Ormond wrote:Did you make it back it=20 civilization yet? Wyn,=20 Thanks for the note about Davud Mathew. =20 Yeah, I'm back in body if not in spirit.=20 I don't have a boy child so David was it. We shot guns and rode = horses,=20 cooked hotdogs in my buffalo hide teepee Christmas eve while he was=20 wrapped up in buffalo robes. He loved it. He spent Christmas with us = this=20 year. I bought him a pony for Christmas and he held a picture of=20 her while he was dying and when the casket was closed the=20 picture was still in his hand). David Mathew was all boy and I was = looking forward to=20 making a mountain man out of him. He loved Wyoming and planned to come = out this summer all by himself to camp and pack. He=20 loved my wife and daughter and gave me credit for being more than I = am,=20 so he made all of us feel good about being alive. I am so much more=20 affected by his death than I can say. The world is different now. I = think=20 it will never be the same. But it was a merciful death and I praise God for His mercy.=20 Can I send you an apishimore? Maybe that will stop the pinching. Let = me=20 know. Your friend, Lee ----- Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C436DC.024EF310 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lee
 
You sure know how to make a grown man = cry.  It=20 is one of the finest things in life to be able to be a part of a young = life like=20 you were with David.  You are right it will never be the same, but = it wont=20 always hurt as bad as it does now.  You have my permission to do = what you=20 need to do to help yourself through this,  and I will appreciate = it, but I=20 don't deserve it.  You have been pretty darn good to me=20 already.
 
See you on the trail
Wynn Ormond
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Lee = Teter=20
To: Mountain Men =
Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 2:26 = PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Wyn = Ormond

Wynn Ormond wrote:Did you make it back it
civilization = yet?
 
Wyn,
Thanks for the note about Davud Mathew.
 

Yeah, = I'm back=20 in body if not in spirit.
I don't have a boy child so David was = it. We=20 shot guns and rode horses,
cooked hotdogs in my buffalo hide = teepee=20 Christmas eve while he was
wrapped up in buffalo robes. He loved = it. He=20 spent Christmas with us this
year. I bought him a pony for = Christmas and=20 he held a picture of
her while he was dying and when the casket = was closed=20 the
picture was still in his hand). David Mathew was all boy and I = was=20 looking forward to
making a mountain man out of him. He loved = Wyoming and=20 planned to come out this summer all by himself to camp and pack. = He=20
loved my wife and daughter and gave me credit for being more than = I am,=20
so he made all of us feel good about being alive. I am so much = more=20
affected by his death than I can say. The world is different now. = I think=20
it will never be the same.

But it was a merciful death and = I praise=20 God for His mercy.

Can I send you an apishimore? Maybe that = will stop=20 the pinching. Let me
know.

Your = friend,

Lee

Do you Yahoo!?
Win=20 a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C436DC.024EF310-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: Colonial House on PBS Date: 16 May 2004 13:22:05 -0500 This came from an acquaintance. It might be worth checking out. Lanney > Tune in to see a voyage over the sea in a 17th century tall ship, > colonists shamed and shunned for missing Sabbath services, marauding > Indians with a 400 year-old score to settle, bi-monthly bathing, > explosive revelations from white indentured servants, and more scarlet > letters than you can shake a stick at. It's terribly exciting. . . > and it's not often one gets a warning at PBS like "Be advised that > the COLONIAL HOUSE broadcast includes detailed discussions of > religion and sexuality, as well as graphic scenes of livestock > slaughter and partial nudity." > Clearly, this ain't your grandma's PBS. > And then, to expand your experience with the series (or to prepare > yourself for it), log on the COLONIAL HOUSE Web site at > www.pbs.org/colonialhouse. Take some time to play with all of the > stimulating and blindingly educational interactivities including: > > A choose your own adventure, where you must guide a ship of colonists > across the sea at: > http://www.pbs.org/wnet/colonialhouse/history/voyage.html > > A chance to revisit the common language of the people in 1628 at: > http://www.pbs.org/wnet/colonialhouse/teachers/dirty_manner/index.html > > The joy of dressing a colonial woman from the skin out at: > http://www.pbs.org/wnet/colonialhouse/history/dress_up_flash.html > > Taking a peek inside the colonists' houses at: > http://www.pbs.org/wnet/colonialhouse/history/panoramas.html > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: MtMan-List: Student Demos Date: 16 May 2004 22:07:25 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C43B92.2BD72300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My boys and I had planned to go to the student rendezvous (demos) last = thursday in Idaho Falls but I had an unepected load of pipe come in = about 6:00 so we unloaded that then went home. We got up early and = headed to IF. Pulled in early and unloaded the plunder, soon Allen Hall = showed and the show was on. Liam (8 yrs) helped Allen do the fire starting demo last year and = wanted to do so again. Only Dave Westcott a college level survival = instructor and friend of Mike Powell's was teaching it this year, so we = had to tell him that he had an assistant. Liam did great by report. = Light a flint and steel fire for each group. The education that my boys = get hanging with the AMM is priceless. The twins (4yrs) wandered around without to much concern for a while. = Then hung with me. We rotate groups of 4th grade kids through five or = six stations. About my third rotation, I lost the right wing of my = group. They started giggling and whispering. I had the gun demo this = year, so usually don't have to much trouble keeping their attention. = After a few moments I realized that their attention was being drawn to = something going on behind me. So lewked over my shoulder to find Conner = back in the pines a little ways with his shirt pulled up under his chin = and just pulling his pants up over his bare butt from having taken a = leak! Typical country boys think the whole world is their toilet. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C43B92.2BD72300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

My boys and I had planned to go to the student rendezvous = (demos) last=20 thursday in Idaho Falls but I had an unepected load of pipe come in = about=20 6:00 so we unloaded that then went home. We got up early and headed to = IF.=20 Pulled in early and unloaded the plunder, soon Allen Hall showed and the = show=20 was on.

Liam (8 yrs)  helped Allen do the fire starting demo last = year and=20 wanted to do so again. Only Dave Westcott a college level survival = instructor=20 and friend of Mike Powell's  was teaching it this year, so we had = to tell=20 him that he had an assistant. Liam did great by report.  Light a = flint and=20 steel fire for each group.  The education that my boys get hanging = with the=20 AMM is priceless.

The twins (4yrs) wandered around without to much concern for a = while.=20 Then hung with me. We rotate groups of 4th grade kids through = five or=20 six stations. About my third rotation, I lost the right wing of my = group. They=20 started giggling and whispering. I had the gun demo this year, so = usually don=92t=20 have to much trouble keeping their attention. After a few moments I = realized=20 that their attention was being drawn to something going on behind me. So = lewked=20 over my shoulder to find Conner back in the pines a little ways with his = shirt=20 pulled up under his chin and just pulling his pants up over his bare = butt from=20 having taken a leak!

Typical country boys think the whole world is their=20 toilet.

------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C43B92.2BD72300-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry" Subject: MtMan-List: sons of a trackless forest Date: 16 May 2004 22:19:43 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C43B93.E36E3B60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit does anyone have a copy or a second copy of sons of a trackless forest they would be willing to sell? I've heard rumors that there is going to be another release this summer, but have not been able to get anything concrete on it. On another note: if you were going to put together a woods walk, what kind of targets and what type of stations would you put up? larry ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C43B93.E36E3B60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
does=20 anyone have a copy or a second copy of sons of a trackless forest they = would be=20 willing to sell?  I've heard rumors that there is going to be = another=20 release this summer, but have not been able to get anything concrete on=20 it. 
 
On=20 another note: if you were going to put together a woods walk, what kind = of=20 targets and what type of stations would you put up?
larry
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C43B93.E36E3B60-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sons of a trackless forest Date: 17 May 2004 01:00:01 EDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/16/2004 9:24:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time, L.Renney@bresnan.net writes: if you were going to put together a woods walk, what kind of targets and what type of stations would you put up? Our walks usually include hawk and/or knife throwing stations; many way above or below normal throwing angles and at weird distances, sometimes surrounded by rocks for good measure. Some stations require throwing through forked branches or at swinging targets. For shooting, swinging and clanging targets are always favorites, as well as shots that require positions other than offhand, such as kneeling or laying down to get off a shot below a branch or other obstacle or being on your tippy toes to shoot over something. One of the sites even has a massive split boulder that you have to crawl inside and darn near shoot around a corner to get the target. We also use animal silhouettes, moving targets, charcoals on a string, pictures of the Booshway, etc. Use your imagination and make it TOUGH. The more challenging the more fun it is and the better you feel when you hit! Barney Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 5/16/2004 9:24:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time, L.Renney= @bresnan.net writes:
if you were going to put together a woods walk, what kind of tar= gets and what type of stations would you put up?
<= /DIV>
Our walks usu= ally include hawk and/or knife throwing stations; many way ab= ove or below normal throwing angles and at weird distances, sometimes surrou= nded by rocks for good measure. Some stations require throwing through forke= d branches or at swinging targets.
&n= bsp;
For shooting, swin= ging and clanging targets are always favorites, as well as shots that req= uire positions other than offhand, such as kneeling or laying down=20= to get off a shot below a branch or other obstacle or being on your tip= py toes to shoot over something. One of the sites even has a massive sp= lit boulder that you have to crawl inside and darn near shoot around a corne= r to get the target. We also use animal silhouettes, moving targets, ch= arcoals on a string, pictures of the Booshway, etc.
&n= bsp;
Use your imaginati= on and make it TOUGH. The more challenging the more fun it is and the better= you feel when you hit!
&n= bsp;
Barney
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "RP Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sons of a trackless forest Date: 17 May 2004 10:44:26 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C43BFB.EC48A370 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Larry, Reactive targets and targets that are easily scored like gongs, popup = cutouts, etc. Unless your just looking to have a trail walk, the most = fun is some sort of team event with a scenario and targets that are not = readily visible until the last possible moment. We've gone to the = trouble of having full sized cardboard cutout "enemy" and "Friendly" = along with dangerous animals rigged to pop up and "shoot" at you, using = rat traps for raising targets and even setting off a squib load of bp in = a sawed off shotgun shell. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Larry=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 9:19 PM Subject: MtMan-List: sons of a trackless forest does anyone have a copy or a second copy of sons of a trackless forest = they would be willing to sell? I've heard rumors that there is going to = be another release this summer, but have not been able to get anything = concrete on it. =20 On another note: if you were going to put together a woods walk, what = kind of targets and what type of stations would you put up? larry ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C43BFB.EC48A370 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Larry,
 
Reactive targets and = targets that=20 are easily scored like gongs, popup cutouts, etc. Unless your just = looking to=20 have a trail walk, the most fun is some sort of team event with a = scenario and=20 targets that are not readily visible until the last possible moment. = We've gone=20 to the trouble of having full sized cardboard cutout "enemy" and = "Friendly"=20 along with dangerous animals rigged to pop up and "shoot" at you, using = rat=20 traps for raising targets and even setting off a squib load of bp in a = sawed off=20 shotgun shell.
 
YMOS
Capt. = Lahti'
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Larry=20
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 9:19 = PM
Subject: MtMan-List: sons of a = trackless=20 forest

does=20 anyone have a copy or a second copy of sons of a trackless forest they = would=20 be willing to sell?  I've heard rumors that there is going to be = another=20 release this summer, but have not been able to get anything concrete = on=20 it. 
 
On=20 another note: if you were going to put together a woods walk, what = kind of=20 targets and what type of stations would you put = up?
larry
------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C43BFB.EC48A370-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jerry Bell" Subject: MtMan-List: Cheveruil Date: 17 May 2004 12:41:25 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C43C0C.450D2520 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am reading Columbia Journals by David Thompson, edited by Barbara Belyea. In it he says they eat Cheveruil. I have looked for this in the dictionary and cannot find out what it is. I am sure someone knows. Could you enlighten me? Thanks, Jerry ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C43C0C.450D2520 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I am reading Columbia Journals by David = Thompson, edited by Barbara Belyea.  In it he says they eat Cheveruil.  = I have looked for this in the dictionary and cannot find out what it is.  I am sure = someone knows.  Could you enlighten me?

 

Thanks,

Jerry

------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C43C0C.450D2520-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sean Boushie" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Cheveruil Date: 17 May 2004 19:42:00 +0000 Roe-Deer. Here's a receipe... http://www.servicevie.com/01Alimentation/recette/Rf_HTML/HTML_1000/1096b.html >From: "Jerry Bell" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: MtMan-List: Cheveruil >Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 12:41:25 -0600 > >I am reading Columbia Journals by David Thompson, edited by Barbara Belyea. >In it he says they eat Cheveruil. I have looked for this in the dictionary >and cannot find out what it is. I am sure someone knows. Could you >enlighten me? > > > >Thanks, > >Jerry > _________________________________________________________________ Getting married? Find tips, tools and the latest trends at MSN Life Events. http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=married ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sons of a trackless forest Date: 17 May 2004 21:02:32 EDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/16/2004 11:24:59 PM Central Standard Time, L.Renney@bresnan.net writes: <<-----(stuff deleted)-----I've heard rumors that there is going to be another release this summer, but have not been able to get anything concrete on it.-----(stuff deleted)----->> Yes it is being reprinted. You can get the info at: http://www.muzzmag.com/Pilgrim's_Journey.htm Longshot Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 5/16/2004 11:24:59 PM Central Standard Time, L.Renne= y@bresnan.net writes:
 
<<-----(stuff delete= d)-----I've heard rumors that there is go= ing to be another release this summer, but have not been able to get anythin= g concrete on it.-----(stuff de= leted)----->>
 
 
Yes it is being reprinted.=   You can get the info at:
 
 
 
Longshot
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cheveruil Date: 17 May 2004 21:04:07 EDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/17/2004 11:42:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jrbell@smartfella.com writes: Cheveruil. I have looked for this in the dictionary and cannot find out what it is. I am sure someone knows. Could you enlighten me? Jerry, If you try to search using the spelling Chevreuil, you'll find definitions and recipes for Capreolus capreolus = Roe, Deer, some in English. Hope this is of some help, Barney Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 5/17/2004 11:42:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jrbell@= smartfella.com writes:
Cheveruil.  I have looked for this in the dictionary and= cannot find out what it is.  I am sure someone knows.  Could you=20= enlighten me?
Jerry, If you try to search using the spelling Chevreuil, you'll find d= efinitions and recipes for
Capreolus capreolus =3D Roe, Deer, some in English.  Hope thi= s is of some help, Barney
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sons of a trackless forest Date: 17 May 2004 21:20:51 EDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/17/2004 10:54:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, amm1719@charter.net writes: Reactive targets and targets that are easily scored like gongs, popup cutouts, etc. Unless your just looking to have a trail walk, the most fun is some sort of team event with a scenario and targets that are not readily visible until the last possible moment. Amen to team events being fun! Set up target scenarios that make 'em think like a covey of quail. Use mostly large game targets so even smooth bore shooters will be loading with solids, then stick the quail about half way through. The savvy teams will fire in volley. However if you have a team that isn't a team & one individual fires first, stop the rest of the team from shooting 'cuz the quail in real life will flush at the first shot & be gone, so treat this scenario the same way. Popup rattlesnakes on monofiliment trip lines are fun. Make them find things along the trail. Hide a bow & several arrows then have an archery target toward the end of the trail. Make 'em find stuff to build a fire with. Make 'em find water if you're in a dry area. Don't be afraid to "kill" people with the snakes, hostiles that shoot back & the all time adrenaline kicker, a bear trap that's rigged so the padded jaws don't close tight enough to really hurt anyone. Several ways to treat injuries & snake bites are tie a hand behind the injured member's back (doesn't work all that well), make snake bit member drink "antivenin" (usually tobasco sauce or something similar), make injured member wear an eye patch on dominant eye, make injured member wear BBQ mit on dominant hand. Treat anyone who gets more than 2 injuries as a fatality. While you can "kill" people with less than multiple injuries, remember the object is to have fun & if you kill someone right at the first station, then he/she doesn't get to participate the rest of the course. Design the course to take about 45 minutes at a walk & run 1 group / hour. Total time can be used in the scoring -- the faster the better IF you have score keepers who can keep up. When there's a "fatality" the remaining team members can take any or the "departed's" plunder/gear they think they'll need later. Use knife & hawk targets as well as shooting targets. Set the course one way out -- return the same way & have teams reset the targets on the way back. Use the old "Indian burial ground" trick. Set course so there's a way around it & they have the choice to go around or through (short way) -- "through" is minus points as is taking anything from the "dead". Keep an eye on teams for unsafe acts 'cuz sometimes in the "heat of battle" they forget even the most basic stuff & the object is to have fun which doesn't happen when people get hurt. Have team members retrieve their game -- represent game with pieces of carpet or red shop towels or rabbit hides or use your imagination -- makes scoring easier and gets 'em off the trail so they trip those pesky popup snakes. Have both "hostiles" & "friendly" targets. Scalp the hostiles & of course shooting / knifing / hawking a friendly is minus points or sets up a war scenario. Hide some hostiles so when scalps are retrieved, they are found -- must have a working weapon to "kill" found hostile with or they get injured / killed. Needless to say, lots of things can be done. These are just a few things I've either done or ran into. This type event is my favorite! Remember -- I think I've said it enough times, but, above all, have fun! Nauga Mok Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 5/17/2004 10:54:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, amm1719= @charter.net writes:
Reactive targets and= targets that are easily scored like gongs, popup cutouts, etc. Unless your=20= just looking to have a trail walk, the most fun is some sort of team event w= ith a scenario and targets that are not readily visible until the last possi= ble moment.
Amen to team events being fun!  Set up target scenarios that make=20= 'em think like a covey of quail.  Use mostly large game targets so even= smooth bore shooters will be loading with solids, then stick the quail = ;about half way through.  The savvy teams will fire in volley.  Ho= wever if you have a team that isn't a team & one individual fires first,= stop the rest of the team from shooting 'cuz the quail in real life wi= ll flush at the first shot & be gone, so treat this scenario the same wa= y.  Popup rattlesnakes on monofiliment trip lines are fun.  Make t= hem find things along the trail.  Hide a bow & several arrows then=20= have an archery target toward the end of the trail.  Make 'em find stuf= f to build a fire with.  Make 'em find water if you're in a dry area.&n= bsp; Don't be afraid to "kill" people with the snakes, hostiles that shoot b= ack & the all time adrenaline kicker, a bear trap that's rigged so the p= added jaws don't close tight enough to really hurt anyone.  Severa= l ways to treat injuries & snake bites are tie a hand behind the injured= member's back (doesn't work all that well), make snake bit member drink "an= tivenin" (usually tobasco sauce or something similar), make injured mem= ber wear an eye patch on dominant eye, make injured member wear BBQ mit on d= ominant hand.  Treat anyone who gets more than 2 injuries as a fatality= .  While you can "kill" people with less than multiple injuries, rememb= er the object is to have fun & if you kill someone right at the first st= ation, then he/she doesn't get to participate the rest of the course. =20= Design the course to take about 45 minutes at a walk & run 1 group=20= / hour.  Total time can be used in the scoring -- the faster the better= IF you have score keepers who can keep up.  When there's a "fatality"=20= the remaining team members can take any or the "departed's" plunder/gear the= y think they'll need later.  Use knife & hawk targets as well as sh= ooting targets.  Set the course one way out -- return the same way &= ; have teams reset the targets on the way back.  Use the old "Indian bu= rial ground" trick.  Set course so there's a way around it & they h= ave the choice to go around or through (short way) -- "through" is minu= s points as is taking anything from the "dead".  Keep an eye on te= ams for unsafe acts 'cuz sometimes in the "heat of battle" they forget even=20= the most basic stuff & the object is to have fun which doesn't happ= en when people get hurt.  Have team members retrieve their game --= represent game with pieces of carpet or red shop towels or rabbit= hides or use your imagination -- makes scoring easier and gets 'em off= the trail so they trip those pesky popup snakes.  Have both "hostiles"= & "friendly" targets.  Scalp the hostiles & of course sho= oting / knifing / hawking a friendly is minus points or sets up a war s= cenario.  Hide some hostiles so when scalps are retrieved, they are fou= nd -- must have a working weapon to "kill" found hostile with or they get in= jured / killed. 
 
Needless to say, lots of things can be done.  These are just a few= things I've either done or ran into.  This type event is my favorite!&= nbsp;  Remember -- I think I've said it enough times, but, above all,&n= bsp;have fun!
 
 
= Nauga Mok
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "RP Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sons of a trackless forest Date: 17 May 2004 19:47:53 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C43C47.D7E3ED80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yea, that's what I was going to suggest! Capt. Lahti' ----- Original Message -----=20 From: NaugaMok@aol.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 6:20 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sons of a trackless forest In a message dated 5/17/2004 10:54:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, = amm1719@charter.net writes: Reactive targets and targets that are easily scored like gongs, = popup cutouts, etc. Unless your just looking to have a trail walk, the = most fun is some sort of team event with a scenario and targets that are = not readily visible until the last possible moment.=20 Amen to team events being fun! Set up target scenarios that make 'em = think like a covey of quail. Use mostly large game targets so even = smooth bore shooters will be loading with solids, then stick the quail = about half way through. The savvy teams will fire in volley. However = if you have a team that isn't a team & one individual fires first, stop = the rest of the team from shooting 'cuz the quail in real life will = flush at the first shot & be gone, so treat this scenario the same way. = Popup rattlesnakes on monofiliment trip lines are fun. Make them find = things along the trail. Hide a bow & several arrows then have an = archery target toward the end of the trail. Make 'em find stuff to = build a fire with. Make 'em find water if you're in a dry area. Don't = be afraid to "kill" people with the snakes, hostiles that shoot back & = the all time adrenaline kicker, a bear trap that's rigged so the padded = jaws don't close tight enough to really hurt anyone. Several ways to = treat injuries & snake bites are tie a hand behind the injured member's = back (doesn't work all that well), make snake bit member drink = "antivenin" (usually tobasco sauce or something similar), make injured = member wear an eye patch on dominant eye, make injured member wear BBQ = mit on dominant hand. Treat anyone who gets more than 2 injuries as a = fatality. While you can "kill" people with less than multiple injuries, = remember the object is to have fun & if you kill someone right at the = first station, then he/she doesn't get to participate the rest of the = course. Design the course to take about 45 minutes at a walk & run 1 = group / hour. Total time can be used in the scoring -- the faster the = better IF you have score keepers who can keep up. When there's a = "fatality" the remaining team members can take any or the "departed's" = plunder/gear they think they'll need later. Use knife & hawk targets as = well as shooting targets. Set the course one way out -- return the same = way & have teams reset the targets on the way back. Use the old "Indian = burial ground" trick. Set course so there's a way around it & they have = the choice to go around or through (short way) -- "through" is minus = points as is taking anything from the "dead". Keep an eye on teams for = unsafe acts 'cuz sometimes in the "heat of battle" they forget even the = most basic stuff & the object is to have fun which doesn't happen when = people get hurt. Have team members retrieve their game -- represent = game with pieces of carpet or red shop towels or rabbit hides or use = your imagination -- makes scoring easier and gets 'em off the trail so = they trip those pesky popup snakes. Have both "hostiles" & "friendly" = targets. Scalp the hostiles & of course shooting / knifing / hawking a = friendly is minus points or sets up a war scenario. Hide some hostiles = so when scalps are retrieved, they are found -- must have a working = weapon to "kill" found hostile with or they get injured / killed. =20 Needless to say, lots of things can be done. These are just a few = things I've either done or ran into. This type event is my favorite! = Remember -- I think I've said it enough times, but, above all, have fun! Nauga Mok ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C43C47.D7E3ED80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yea, that's what I was = going to=20 suggest! <G>
 
Capt. = Lahti'
 
 
Amen to team events being fun!  Set up target scenarios that = make=20 'em think like a covey of quail.  Use mostly large game targets = so even=20 smooth bore shooters will be loading with solids, then stick the=20 quail about half way through.  The savvy teams will fire in=20 volley.  However if you have a team that isn't a team & one=20 individual fires first, stop the rest of the team from shooting = 'cuz the=20 quail in real life will flush at the first shot & be gone, so = treat this=20 scenario the same way.  Popup rattlesnakes on monofiliment trip = lines are=20 fun.  Make them find things along the trail.  Hide a bow = &=20 several arrows then have an archery target toward the end of the = trail. =20 Make 'em find stuff to build a fire with.  Make 'em find water if = you're=20 in a dry area.  Don't be afraid to "kill" people with the snakes, = hostiles that shoot back & the all time adrenaline kicker, a bear = trap=20 that's rigged so the padded jaws don't close tight enough to = really hurt=20 anyone.  Several ways to treat injuries & snake bites are tie = a hand=20 behind the injured member's back (doesn't work all that well), make = snake bit=20 member drink "antivenin" (usually tobasco sauce or something=20 similar), make injured member wear an eye patch on dominant eye, = make=20 injured member wear BBQ mit on dominant hand.  Treat anyone who = gets more=20 than 2 injuries as a fatality.  While you can "kill" people with = less=20 than multiple injuries, remember the object is to have fun & if = you kill=20 someone right at the first station, then he/she doesn't get to = participate the=20 rest of the course.  Design the course to take about 45 minutes = at a=20 walk & run 1 group / hour.  Total time can be used in = the=20 scoring -- the faster the better IF you have score keepers who can = keep=20 up.  When there's a "fatality" the remaining team members can = take any or=20 the "departed's" plunder/gear they think they'll need later.  Use = knife=20 & hawk targets as well as shooting targets.  Set the course = one way=20 out -- return the same way & have teams reset the targets on the = way=20 back.  Use the old "Indian burial ground" trick.  Set course = so=20 there's a way around it & they have the choice to go around or = through=20 (short way) -- "through" is minus points as is taking anything = from the=20 "dead".  Keep an eye on teams for unsafe acts 'cuz sometimes = in the=20 "heat of battle" they forget even the most basic stuff & the = object is to=20 have fun which doesn't happen when people get hurt.  = Have team=20 members retrieve their game -- represent game with pieces of = carpet=20 or red shop towels or rabbit hides or use your imagination -- = makes=20 scoring easier and gets 'em off the trail so they trip those = pesky popup=20 snakes.  Have both "hostiles" & "friendly" targets.  = Scalp the=20 hostiles & of course shooting / knifing / hawking a = friendly is=20 minus points or sets up a war scenario.  Hide some hostiles so = when=20 scalps are retrieved, they are found -- must have a working weapon to = "kill"=20 found hostile with or they get injured / killed. 
 
Needless to say, lots of things can be done.  These are just = a few=20 things I've either done or ran into.  This type event is my=20 favorite!   Remember -- I think I've said it enough times, = but,=20 above all, have fun!
 
 
Nauga=20 Mok
------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C43C47.D7E3ED80-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sons of a trackless forest Date: 17 May 2004 21:34:51 -0600 (MDT) Longshot, I'm confused. The link you provided for the hardbound copy of Mark's Muzzleloader Magazine articles? A Pilgrims Journey. Are you and Larry mistaking this new coming reprint of his articles in book version for his book "Sons of a Trackless Forest"? I wasn't aware that "Sons..." was no longer available from Mark. He had a crate of them at Polebrige and never mentioned them running out. Does anyone know if copies of "Sons..." are still available from Mark Baker? I have his address for Baker's Trace printing but there is no phone or web link. bb > In a message dated 5/16/2004 11:24:59 PM Central Standard Time, > L.Renney@bresnan.net writes: > > <<-----(stuff deleted)-----I've heard rumors that there is going to be > another release this summer, but have not been able to get anything > concrete on > it.-----(stuff deleted)----->> > > > Yes it is being reprinted. You can get the info at: > > http://www.muzzmag.com/Pilgrim's_Journey.htm > > > Longshot > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Angela Gottfred" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Cheveruil Date: 17 May 2004 21:36:18 -0600 "Jerry Bell" jrbell@smartfella.com wrote:=20 >>I am reading Columbia Journals by David Thompson, edited by Barbara = Belyea. In it he says they eat Cheveruil<< In the footnote to Glover's edition of Thompson's _Narrative_ (p. 268), chevreuil is defined as mule deer. Thompson probably isn't eating Roe = Deer, because that is a Eurasian species. Your very humble & most obedient servant, Angela Gottfred www.northwestjournal.ca ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TheGreyWolfe@webtv.net (The Grey Wolfe) Subject: MtMan-List: Blank load ? Date: 18 May 2004 07:44:13 -0400 Greetings to to all! Its been quite a while since Ive been on list but I finally have a question that I hope some one out there can help me with. Ive been asked by a local Historical group and Museum to re-enact a Rev. war era Rifleman for there Forth of July Cook Out. Of course the main thing they want me to do is shoot my rifle(.50 cal.) off as much as possible which leads me to my question, it occurs to me that in all the myriad times Ive fired my rifle Ive never fired a blank load and was wondering what size charge to use and weather a precut patch would do to tamp it down or a small wad of cloth or paper would be best? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated! Your Servant, Michael A. Smith "Once kick the world,and the world and you will live together at a reasonable good understanding." ~Jonathan Swift~ http://community.webtv.net/TheGreyWolfe/THELONGHUNTERSCAMP ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sean Boushie" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Blank load ? Date: 18 May 2004 13:08:27 +0000 We have done a few holdups, prades ect in the past using sots blanks. I use ~80 gr of 2f in my 50 with a ball sized hunk of toliet paper to hold it in. In my 10ga double I use 200gr with a hunk of paper. Now that makes some noise! >From: TheGreyWolfe@webtv.net (The Grey Wolfe) >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: Blank load ? >Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 07:44:13 -0400 > >Greetings to to all! Its been quite a while since Ive been on list but I >finally have a question that I hope some one out there can help me with. >Ive been asked by a local Historical group and Museum to re-enact a Rev. >war era Rifleman >for there Forth of July Cook Out. Of course the main thing they want me >to do is shoot my rifle(.50 cal.) off as much as possible which leads me >to my question, it occurs to me that in all the myriad times Ive fired >my rifle Ive never fired a blank load and was wondering what size charge >to use and weather a precut patch would do to tamp it down or a small >wad of cloth or paper would be best? Any thoughts would be greatly >appreciated! > >Your Servant, >Michael A. Smith > >"Once kick the world,and the world and you will live together at a >reasonable good understanding." > >~Jonathan Swift~ > > >http://community.webtv.net/TheGreyWolfe/THELONGHUNTERSCAMP > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Get 200+ ad-free, high-fidelity stations and LIVE Major League Baseball Gameday Audio! http://radio.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200491ave/direct/01/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID HOFFMAN Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blank load ? Date: 18 May 2004 06:31:08 -0700 (PDT) --0-510841170-1084887068=:21877 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Michael, i've always used between 60gr and 80gr for my blanks, some use more for more of an impression i find even a small load will impress most folks;) what i do is roll the load up in a small piece of newspaper or other light paper, tear one end (not off) pour powder , ram paper down barrel hence small amount of light paper (if not to close to crowd) if the crowd is close just put paper in your bag for later disposal, have fun. David Help!!!, I'm Being Held In This Century Against My Will!! Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. --0-510841170-1084887068=:21877 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Michael,
 
i've always used between 60gr and 80gr for my blanks, some use more for more of an impression i find even a small load will impress most folks;) what i do is roll the load up in a small piece of newspaper or other light paper, tear one end (not off) pour powder , ram paper down barrel hence small amount of light paper (if not to close to crowd) if the crowd is close just put paper in your bag for later disposal, have fun. 
 
David


Help!!!, I'm Being Held In This Century Against My Will!!





Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. --0-510841170-1084887068=:21877-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Blank load ? Date: 18 May 2004 07:41:03 -0700 Michael, we have done parades, etc.... I would advice using a small piece of cloth on top of a smaller than usual load (30 grains). I would put the cloth in my mouth to wet, and then wd up and push down on top of powder. The last thing you want is a burning piece of paper falling down on the crowd. I have seen a lady get burned, that's when I went to wet cloth for a wad. Randy > [Original Message] > From: > and was wondering what size charge > to use and weather a precut patch would do to tamp it down or a small > wad of cloth or paper would be best? Any thoughts would be greatly > appreciated! > > Your Servant, > Michael A. Smith > > "Once kick the world,and the world and you will live together at a > reasonable good understanding." > > ~Jonathan Swift~ > > > http://community.webtv.net/TheGreyWolfe/THELONGHUNTERSCAMP > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jerry Bell" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Cheveruil Date: 18 May 2004 09:53:58 -0600 Thank you for the reply; however, Thompson says these deer weight between 30-50 lbs. which leads me to believe they are not mule deer. Jerry -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Angela Gottfred Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 9:36 PM "Jerry Bell" jrbell@smartfella.com wrote: >>I am reading Columbia Journals by David Thompson, edited by Barbara Belyea. In it he says they eat Cheveruil<< In the footnote to Glover's edition of Thompson's _Narrative_ (p. 268), chevreuil is defined as mule deer. Thompson probably isn't eating Roe Deer, because that is a Eurasian species. Your very humble & most obedient servant, Angela Gottfred www.northwestjournal.ca ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DAVID HOFFMAN Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Blank load ? Date: 18 May 2004 09:58:54 -0700 (PDT) --0-1614024709-1084899534=:11055 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii <<>> which is why i mentioned the part about the crowd, however i neglected to mention if i'm close to a crowd i don't use anything, just powder, you don't get quite as much sound but the flash is still very impressive. David Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. --0-1614024709-1084899534=:11055 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
<<<The last thing you want is a burning piece of paper falling down on the
crowd.  I have seen a lady get burned, that's when I went to wet cloth
for
a wad.   Randy>>>

which is why i mentioned the part about the crowd, however i neglected to mention if i'm close to a crowd i don't use anything, just powder, you don't get quite as much sound but the flash is still very impressive.
David

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SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. --0-1614024709-1084899534=:11055-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TheGreyWolfe@webtv.net (The Grey Wolfe) Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Blank load ? Date: 18 May 2004 16:57:31 -0400 Thanks for the info guys! If anyone else has anymore ideas I'd be glad to here'm! Thanks again, M. "Once kick the world,and the world and you will live together at a reasonable good understanding." ~Jonathan Swift~ http://community.webtv.net/TheGreyWolfe/THELONGHUNTERSCAMP ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Blank load ? Date: 18 May 2004 16:38:11 -0500 Small scraps of buckskin (from that pile we all have once we've made a few things) cut to, appropriate-to-the-caliber, squares makes excellent wadding for blanks and shot. Wool blanket also works. SnakeOyl... At 03:57 PM 05/18/04, you wrote: >Thanks for the info guys! If anyone else has >anymore ideas I'd be glad to here'm! > >Thanks again, >M. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Blank load ? Date: 18 May 2004 16:38:11 -0500 Small scraps of buckskin (from that pile we all have once we've made a few things) cut to, appropriate-to-the-caliber, squares makes excellent wadding for blanks and shot. Wool blanket also works. SnakeOyl... At 03:57 PM 05/18/04, you wrote: >Thanks for the info guys! If anyone else has >anymore ideas I'd be glad to here'm! > >Thanks again, >M. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: sons of a trackless forest Date: 18 May 2004 16:27:52 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C43CF5.11065BE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit longshot: good info, except the reprints are from baker's articles in muzzleloader over the last 10 years. Son's of a Trackless Forest was based on his master's thesis and is specific to the Cumberland Long Hunters of the eighteenth century. Different tome. but thanks for checking. larry http://www.muzzmag.com/Pilgrim's_Journey.htm ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C43CF5.11065BE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
longshot:   good info, = except the=20 reprints are from baker's articles in muzzleloader over the last 10 = years. =20 Son's of a Trackless Forest was based on his master's thesis and is = specific to=20 the Cumberland Long Hunters of the eighteenth century.  Different=20 tome.  but thanks for checking.
 larry
 
http://www.muzzmag.= com/Pilgrim's_Journey.htm
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C43CF5.11065BE0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sons of a trackless forest Date: 18 May 2004 18:44:22 EDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/17, beaverboy writes: <<-----(stuf deleted)----- The link you provided for the hardbound copy of Mark's Muzzleloader Magazine articles? A Pilgrims Journey. Are you and Larry mistaking this new coming reprint of his articles in book version for his book "Sons of a Trackless Forest"? -----(stuf deleted)----->> Beaverboy, I recently got a crack repaired in my gunstock, but now it appears I'm on crack. Don't blame Larry, it's just me.....I have no bsiness reading e-mail late at night when I should be in bed. Sorry for the confusion. Longshot Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 5/17, beaverboy writes:
 <<-----(stuf d= eleted)----- The link you provided for the ha= rdbound copy of Mark's Muzzleloader Magazine articles? A Pilgrims Journey. A= re you and Larry mistaking this new coming reprint of his articles in book v= ersion for his book "Sons of a Trackless Forest"? -----(stuf deleted)--= --->>
 
Beaverboy,
 
  I recently got a cr= ack repaired in my gunstock, but now it appears I'm on crack. Don't blame La= rry, it's just me.....I have no bsiness reading e-mail late at night when I=20= should be in bed. Sorry for the confusion.
 
 
Longshot
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Blank load ? Date: 18 May 2004 18:20:25 -0600 (MDT) Our group never shoots blanks toward crowds, no matter how far away they are. We never shoot over their heads either. Sometimes we just can't shoot. We even had to be trained and certified by the National Park Service in black powder safety. The 16 hour course covered weapons safety and inspection, personal safety, historical weapon maintenance, ammunition preparation, flints, weapon drills, handling misfires and maintenance of demonstration area. It's a great course and I recommend it to anyone who owns a blackpowder weapon. All National Parks require it to fire BP weapons on their property. At least up here they do. After taking the course and seeing films of a few guys getting their arms blown off by improperly loading cannons I didn't want to touch BP for a while. I'm still very wary while handling it. I've seen a few untrained guys shoot near crowds in very unsafe ways. Always remember when it comes to shooting around crowds, as you all know, Safety First! > Michael, we have done parades, etc.... I would advice using a small > piece > of cloth on top of a smaller than usual load (30 grains). I would put the > cloth in my mouth to wet, and then wd up and push down on top of powder. > The last thing you want is a burning piece of paper falling down on the > crowd. I have seen a lady get burned, that's when I went to wet cloth for > a wad. Randy > > >> [Original Message] >> From: >> and was wondering what size charge >> to use and weather a precut patch would do to tamp it down or a small >> wad of cloth or paper would be best? Any thoughts would be greatly >> appreciated! >> >> Your Servant, >> Michael A. Smith >> >> "Once kick the world,and the world and you will live together at a >> reasonable good understanding." >> >> ~Jonathan Swift~ >> >> >> http://community.webtv.net/TheGreyWolfe/THELONGHUNTERSCAMP >> >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gene Hickman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sons of a trackless forest Date: 18 May 2004 19:15:10 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C43D0C.6FF510D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Longshot, Thanks, this is good information, but it is not Sons of a Trackless = Forest. I will order Mark's new book though. As Always,=20 Your Obedient Servant,=20 =20 Gene Hickman ----- Original Message -----=20 From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 7:02 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sons of a trackless forest In a message dated 5/16/2004 11:24:59 PM Central Standard Time, = L.Renney@bresnan.net writes: <<-----(stuff deleted)-----I've heard rumors that there is going to be = another release this summer, but have not been able to get anything = concrete on it.-----(stuff deleted)----->> Yes it is being reprinted. You can get the info at: http://www.muzzmag.com/Pilgrim's_Journey.htm Longshot ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C43D0C.6FF510D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Longshot,
 
Thanks, this is good information, but it is not Sons of a Trackless = Forest.=20 I will order Mark's new book though.
 
As Always,
Your Obedient Servant,
 
Gene = Hickman
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 LODGEPOLE@aol.com
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 7:02 = PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sons = of a=20 trackless forest

In a message dated 5/16/2004 11:24:59 PM Central Standard Time, = L.Renney@bresnan.net = writes:
 
<<-----(stuff=20 deleted)-----I've heard rumors that = there is=20 going to be another release this summer, but have not been able to get = anything concrete on it.-----(stuff=20 deleted)----->>
 
 
Yes it is being = reprinted. =20 You can get the info at:
 
http://www.muzzmag.= com/Pilgrim's_Journey.htm
 
 
Longshot
= ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C43D0C.6FF510D0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JIM BRYAN" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blank load ? Date: 18 May 2004 23:46:11 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0087_01C43D32.4C904940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've used wads of tow or unraveled hemp or jute rope...gotta be careful = though; it's very effective tender, as we all know. Absalom ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John Kramer=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 4:38 PM Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Blank load ? Small scraps of buckskin (from that pile we all have once we've made a = few=20 things) cut to, appropriate-to-the-caliber, squares makes excellent = wadding=20 for blanks and shot. Wool blanket also works. SnakeOyl... At 03:57 PM 05/18/04, you wrote: >Thanks for the info guys! If anyone else has >anymore ideas I'd be glad to here'm! > >Thanks again, >M. ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------=_NextPart_000_0087_01C43D32.4C904940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I've used wads of tow or unraveled hemp or jute rope...gotta be = careful=20 though; it's very effective tender, as we all know.
 
Absalom
----- Original Message -----
From: John Kramer
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 = 4:38 PM
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Blank = load=20 ?

Small scraps of buckskin (from that pile we all have = once we've=20 made a few
things) cut to, appropriate-to-the-caliber, squares = makes=20 excellent wadding
for blanks and shot.  Wool blanket also=20 works.

SnakeOyl...

At 03:57 PM 05/18/04, you=20 wrote:
>Thanks for the info guys! If anyone else = has
>anymore=20 ideas I'd be glad to here'm!
>
>Thanks=20 = again,
>M.





----------------------
hist_te= xt=20 list info: http://www.xm= ission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
------=_NextPart_000_0087_01C43D32.4C904940-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thom Frazier" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Blank load ? Date: 19 May 2004 12:14:35 -0500 All large reenacting groups recommend PAPER ONLY for blank loads. The reason is all other materials: cloth (even wet) buckskin, tow, hemp, etc. smolder and are fire hazards. Never shoot over or in the direction of a crowd. The belief that someone was hit by something can do as much damage as actually being hit. Weeping Heart Gunn Shoppe Thom Frazier 36732 Oak Point Rd. New York Mills MN 56567 218-385-2074 mnthom@arvig.net -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of The Grey Wolfe Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 3:58 PM Thanks for the info guys! If anyone else has anymore ideas I'd be glad to here'm! Thanks again, M. "Once kick the world,and the world and you will live together at a reasonable good understanding." ~Jonathan Swift~ http://community.webtv.net/TheGreyWolfe/THELONGHUNTERSCAMP ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Todd Schrivener Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Blank load ? Date: 19 May 2004 11:01:06 -0700 (PDT) --0-1687311240-1084989666=:40856 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Paper smoulders as well. Back in March I was down on the Osage Nation for a tactical, the paper from a cartidge in a brown bess musket started to catch the leaf litter. It was smoking quite nicely, which is how we noticed it and stomped it out. I would figure buckskin the least likely substance to smoulder of those listed. Interesting. Never considered making cartridges out of leather. Thom Frazier wrote: All large reenacting groups recommend PAPER ONLY for blank loads. The reason is all other materials: cloth (even wet) buckskin, tow, hemp, etc. smolder and are fire hazards. Never shoot over or in the direction of a crowd. The belief that someone was hit by something can do as much damage as actually being hit. Weeping Heart Gunn Shoppe Thom Frazier 36732 Oak Point Rd. New York Mills MN 56567 218-385-2074 mnthom@arvig.net --0-1687311240-1084989666=:40856 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Paper smoulders as well.   Back in March I was down on the Osage Nation for a tactical, the paper from a cartidge in a brown bess musket started to catch the leaf litter.   It was smoking quite nicely, which is how we noticed it and stomped it out.
 
I would figure buckskin the least likely substance to smoulder of those listed.   Interesting.  Never considered making cartridges out of leather.  
 

Thom Frazier <mnthom@arvig.net> wrote:
All large reenacting groups recommend PAPER ONLY for blank loads. The reason
is all other materials: cloth (even wet) buckskin, tow, hemp, etc. smolder
and are fire hazards. Never shoot over or in the direction of a crowd. The
belief that someone was hit by something can do as much damage as actually
being hit.
Weeping Heart Gunn Shoppe
Thom Frazier
36732 Oak Point Rd.
New York Mills MN 56567
218-385-2074
mnthom@arvig.net
 
--0-1687311240-1084989666=:40856-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Dearing Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blank load ? Date: 18 May 2004 14:27:59 -0500 Go to the range and try different loads until you get the "boom" you want. In the very few battle reenactments in which I have participated, a load of 100 gr FFFg in a .75 cal musket made an impressive report, with NO wadding what so ever. You don't need anything over the powder if you are firing immediately after loading. Safety considerations preclude any wadding, or firing in the direction of the crowd. If I were to participate in such an event, I would insist on a roped off area with room to fire away from the crowd. And would not fire if my conditions were not met. Remember YOU are responsible for anyone injured due to burning embers, hearing damage due to an overly loud report, and for any injuries to the idiot who ducks under the rope and runs in front of you just as you discharge your piece. J.D. >Greetings to to all! Its been quite a while since Ive been on list but I >finally have a question that I hope some one out there can help me with. >Ive been asked by a local Historical group and Museum to re-enact a Rev. >war era Rifleman >for there Forth of July Cook Out. Of course the main thing they want me >to do is shoot my rifle(.50 cal.) off as much as possible which leads me >to my question, it occurs to me that in all the myriad times Ive fired >my rifle Ive never fired a blank load and was wondering what size charge >to use and weather a precut patch would do to tamp it down or a small >wad of cloth or paper would be best? Any thoughts would be greatly >appreciated! > >Your Servant, >Michael A. Smith > >"Once kick the world,and the world and you will live together at a >reasonable good understanding." > >~Jonathan Swift~ > > >http://community.webtv.net/TheGreyWolfe/THELONGHUNTERSCAMP > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dejim55@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blank load ? Date: 19 May 2004 15:45:09 EDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I use tinfoil for my parade loads. You can role them up ahead of time. I make mine elongated so that they drop clear down the barrel. Jim #1798. Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I use tinfoil for my parade loads.  You can role them up ahead of ti= me.  I make mine elongated so that they drop clear down the barrel.&nbs= p; Jim #1798. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Glenn Darilek" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blank load ? Date: 19 May 2004 15:46:10 -0500 Another reason not to use any wadding is that you don't need a ramrod to poke the wadding down. In fact, don't even have a ramrod or wiping stick around when you are firing. This eliminates one step, but more importantly, there is no way the ramrod can inadvertently turn into a projectile. And don't say it can never happen. From personal experience I can say you never forget the sound when you are on the receiving end of a ramrod whizzing overhead. While we are being super-cautious, If they want you to shoot off a rifle as much as possible, is there a danger of pouring powder on a remaining ember in the barrel? I have never seen it happen, but some say they have. Of course pour powder only from premeasured papers or from a measure, not from a horn. Iron Burner Glenn Darilek John Dearing said You don't need anything over the powder if you are firing immediately after loading. Michael A. Smith asked: >the myriad times Ive fired my rifle Ive never fired a blank load and >was wondering what size charge to use and weather a precut patch would >do to tamp it down or a small wad of cloth or paper would be best? Any >thoughts would be greatly appreciated! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: blank loads? Date: 19 May 2004 15:39:59 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C43DB7.8AD0B660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I answered Michael off-list and told him that I never used any = wadding in my demo blank loads. The reason is as others have mentioned, = what goes up must come down. And wads are invariably burning. A larger = than normal charge must be used to get a big bang and the rifles get = dirty something awful. But the crowds love it. Frank ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C43DB7.8AD0B660 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    I answered Michael off-list and told him that I = never=20 used any wadding in my demo blank loads. The reason is as others have = mentioned,=20 what goes up must come down. And wads are invariably burning. A larger = than=20 normal charge must be used to get a big bang and the rifles get dirty = something=20 awful.
    But the crowds love it.
Frank
------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C43DB7.8AD0B660-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Blank load ? Date: 19 May 2004 20:24:14 -0400 For our battle reenactments at the Battle of Culloden, we use only paper cartridges with about a 70 Gr 3F load, and use some of that to prime with. We toss the paper and police it up afterwards... Nothing ever goes down the barrel. Regards, Ad Miller ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JOAQUINQS@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain National Rendezvous Date: 22 May 2004 14:26:21 EDT --part1_f.2a1aebbf.2de0f54d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just wondering if any on the list will be attending the RMNR, it begins just about time the AMM Nationals will be ending. I would currently planning on attending, and would like to put a face with some names I have seen on the list. Frank Sablan Midland,Texas --part1_f.2a1aebbf.2de0f54d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just wondering if any on the list w= ill be attending the RMNR, it begins just about time the AMM Nationals will=20= be ending.  I would currently planning on attending, and would like to=20= put a face with some names I have seen on the list.

Frank Sablan
Midland,Texas --part1_f.2a1aebbf.2de0f54d_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain National Rendezvous Date: 22 May 2004 14:27:36 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00CD_01C44008.ED83A440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----=20 Frank My wife and I are taking the last week of June and the first week of = July for vacation and will take a grand tour of the Rockies, including = the AMM nationals. I had not thought about the RMNR at all. When and = where will the RMNR be? Perhaps we could include that as well. Of = course, you have seen my face already.=20 Lanney Original Message -----=20 From: JOAQUINQS@aol.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 1:26 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain National Rendezvous Just wondering if any on the list will be attending the RMNR, it = begins just about time the AMM Nationals will be ending. I would = currently planning on attending, and would like to put a face with some = names I have seen on the list. Frank Sablan Midland,Texas ------=_NextPart_000_00CD_01C44008.ED83A440 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
-----=20
Frank
  My wife and I are = taking the=20 last week of June and the first week of July for vacation and=20 will take a grand tour of the Rockies, including the AMM=20 nationals. I had not thought about the RMNR at all.  When = and where=20 will the RMNR be?  Perhaps we could include that as well.  = Of=20 course, you have seen my face already.
Lanney
 
Original Message -----
 
 
From:=20 JOAQUINQS@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 = 1:26=20 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Rocky = Mountain=20 National Rendezvous

Just wondering if any on the list = will be=20 attending the RMNR, it begins just about time the AMM Nationals will = be=20 ending.  I would currently planning on attending, and would like = to put a=20 face with some names I have seen on the list.

Frank=20 Sablan
Midland,Texas ------=_NextPart_000_00CD_01C44008.ED83A440-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JOAQUINQS@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain National Rendezvous Date: 22 May 2004 15:55:17 EDT --part1_f7.3ae847a2.2de10a25_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lanney, here is a link to the RMNR it is near Delores, Colorado somewhere near Durango Rocky Mountain National Rendezvous wilderness camp --part1_f7.3ae847a2.2de10a25_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lanney,
here is a link to the RMNR it is near Delores, Colorado somewhere near Duran= go



Rocky Mountain National Rendezvous wilderness c= amp --part1_f7.3ae847a2.2de10a25_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain National Rendezvous Date: 22 May 2004 16:17:15 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00EF_01C44018.3EE75FC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm afraid that we won't be able to make the RMNR. We need to be home = on the same Saturday that the RDV cranks up. Look up the booshway, Don = Keas, and tell him hello for me. Lanney ----- Original Message -----=20 From: JOAQUINQS@aol.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 2:55 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain National Rendezvous Lanney, here is a link to the RMNR it is near Delores, Colorado somewhere near = Durango Rocky Mountain National Rendezvous wilderness camp ------=_NextPart_000_00EF_01C44018.3EE75FC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm afraid that we = won't be able=20 to make the RMNR.  We need to be home on the same Saturday that the = RDV=20 cranks up.  Look up the booshway, Don Keas, and tell him hello for=20 me.
Lanney
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 JOAQUINQS@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 = 2:55=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rocky = Mountain=20 National Rendezvous

Lanney,
here is a link to the = RMNR it is=20 near Delores, Colorado somewhere near Durango



Rocky Mountain National Rendezvous = wilderness camp=20 ------=_NextPart_000_00EF_01C44018.3EE75FC0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JSeminerio@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain National Rendezvous Date: 22 May 2004 19:07:22 EDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/22/04 5:22:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lanneyratcliff@charter.net writes: I'm afraid that we won't be able to make the RMNR. Hey Lanney Do you have a line on the original north east rendezvous? I can't find anything on google. Thanks Watch your topknot John Seminerio Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 5/22/04 5:22:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lanneyratc= liff@charter.net writes:
I'm afraid that we w= on't be able to make the RMNR.
Hey Lanney
 
Do you have a line on the original north east rendezvous? I can't find=20= anything on google.
 
Thanks
Watch your topknot
John Seminerio
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "tetontodd@juno.com" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain National Rendezvous Date: 23 May 2004 00:33:01 GMT Rick, Myself and Rick Williams from Utah will be there the first weekend Teton ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain National Rendezvous Date: 22 May 2004 21:54:21 EDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey, why not skip the Rocky Mountain and come to the encampment at the Museum of the Mountain Man? Jim Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey, why not skip the Rocky Mountain and come to the encampment at the=20= Museum of the Mountain Man?
 
Jim
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain National Rendezvous Date: 22 May 2004 21:31:19 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C44044.1EF1BF90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm afraid not, John. In fact I'm not sure which RDV you're referring = to. Gimme a clue. Lanney ----- Original Message -----=20 From: JSeminerio@aol.com=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 6:07 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain National Rendezvous In a message dated 5/22/04 5:22:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, = lanneyratcliff@charter.net writes: I'm afraid that we won't be able to make the RMNR. Hey Lanney Do you have a line on the original north east rendezvous? I can't find = anything on google. Thanks Watch your topknot John Seminerio ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C44044.1EF1BF90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm afraid not, John.  = In fact I'm=20 not sure which RDV you're referring to.  Gimme a clue.
Lanney
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 JSeminerio@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 = 6:07=20 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rocky = Mountain=20 National Rendezvous

In a message dated 5/22/04 5:22:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lanneyratcliff@charter.net= =20 writes:
I'm afraid that we won't be = able to make=20 the RMNR.
Hey Lanney
 
Do you have a line on the original north east rendezvous? I can't = find=20 anything on google.
 
Thanks
Watch your topknot
John Seminerio
------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C44044.1EF1BF90-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JSeminerio@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: RMNR Apology Date: 23 May 2004 00:36:21 EDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To the List Sorry I thought that post was going to Lanney Thanks John Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
To the List
 
Sorry I thought that post was going to Lanney
 
Thanks
John
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ole Jensen Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain National Rendezvous Date: 23 May 2004 08:40:38 -0600 Todd, Contact me off the list, or call me. Ole On Saturday, May 22, 2004, at 06:33 PM, tetontodd@juno.com wrote: > > Rick, > > Myself and Rick Williams from Utah will be there the first weekend > > Teton > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain National Rendezvous Date: 23 May 2004 21:15:19 -0600 Lanney - The 10th thru the 18th of July by Delores, Colorado. I am co-= booshway, so would really love to see you guys there. Don Keas On Saturday, May 22, 2004 1:27 PM, Lanney Ratcliff wrote: > >=A0 > >----- > Frank > > =A0 My wife and I are taking the last week of June and the first >week of July for vacation=A0and will=A0take a grand tour of the >Rockies, including the AMM nationals.=A0I had not thought about >the RMNR at all.=A0 When and where will the RMNR be?=A0 Perhaps we >could include that as well.=A0 Of course, you have seen my face already. > Lanney > =A0 > Original Message ----- > =A0 > =A0 > From: JOAQUINQS@aol.com > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 1:26 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain National Rendezvous > >Just wondering if any on the list will be attending the RMNR, >it begins just about time the AMM Nationals will be ending.=A0 I >would currently planning on attending, and would like to put a >face with some names I have seen on the list. > >Frank Sablan >Midland,Texas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Rocky Mountain National Rendezvous Date: 23 May 2004 21:15:18 -0600 Yep, I will be there, especially since I lost my durn mind and volunteered = to booshway the event. Don On Saturday, May 22, 2004 12:26 PM, JOAQUINQS@aol.com wrote: >Just wondering if any on the list will be attending the RMNR, it >begins just about time the AMM Nationals will be ending.=A0 I >would currently planning on attending, and would like to put a >face with some names I have seen on the list. > > Frank Sablan > Midland,Texas ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Samuel Keller Subject: MtMan-List: Clerk's Cap Date: 23 May 2004 23:28:44 -0700 (PDT) Anyone know where I can find a Pattern for a Clerk's Cap?? Thanks; Sam __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Domains – Claim yours for only $14.70/year http://smallbusiness.promotions.yahoo.com/offer ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: J275Rogers@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List:Origional Notheastern Date: 24 May 2004 09:06:57 EDT --part1_64.3ef0dd60.2de34d71_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Original Northeastern Primitive Rendezvous is in Sanbornton, NH, 5/28-6/6/04. Exit 22 off of Rte 93, take rte127 south turn right just before the general store,then quick left follow signs for the Transfer Station. Stay to the left at the forks and when the road turns to dirt it's about 2 mi. John Rogers --part1_64.3ef0dd60.2de34d71_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Original Northeastern Primitive= Rendezvous is in Sanbornton, NH, 5/28-6/6/04.
Exit 22 off of Rte 93, take rte127 south turn right just before the general=20= store,then quick left follow signs for the Transfer Station.  Stay to t= he left at the forks and when the road turns to dirt it's about 2 mi.
John Rogers --part1_64.3ef0dd60.2de34d71_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Addison Miller" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clerk's Cap Date: 24 May 2004 10:22:20 -0400 Check www.bushwomans.com ... I think she has one... Regards, Ad Miller > Anyone know where I can find a Pattern for a Clerk's > Cap?? > > Thanks; > > Sam ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gene Hickman" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clerk's Cap Date: 24 May 2004 10:36:32 -0600 Try this article on the Northwest Journal website: http://www.northwestjournal.ca/XII3.htm Now a "plug" for Angela Gottfred and the Northwest Journal http://www.northwestjournal.ca/. It is one of the most comprehensive sites on the Voyageur and the Canadian Fur Trade that I have found. Of the dozen or so discussion groups that I am also a member of, the Voyager discussion group is one of my favorites. I highly recommend taking a look at the website and consider joining the discussion group. As Always, Your Obedient Servant, Gene Hickman > > Anyone know where I can find a Pattern for a Clerk's > > Cap?? > > > > Thanks; > > > > Sam ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pare Bowlegs Subject: MtMan-List: Burden straps/tumplines. Date: 24 May 2004 14:23:36 -0700 (PDT) --0-688175245-1085433816=:53964 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Is there any documentation that supports the use of mountain men using a burden strap/tumpline? If there is, were they twined from cordage, braintan, or rawhide? Thanks in advance. Btw, is there anyone else on here from Oklahoma? Give me a holler, and maybe we can get together soon. Pare Bowlegs Seminole Nation Our oral traditions is our documentation. Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger --0-688175245-1085433816=:53964 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Is there any documentation that supports the use of mountain men using a burden strap/tumpline? If there is, were they twined from cordage, braintan, or rawhide?
 
Thanks in advance.
 
Btw, is there anyone else on here from Oklahoma? Give me a holler, and maybe we can get together soon.
 
Pare Bowlegs
Seminole Nation
 


Our oral traditions is our documentation.

Do you Yahoo!?
Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger --0-688175245-1085433816=:53964-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: trumpline Date: 24 May 2004 16:59:00 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0085_01C441B0.690DD420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pare I cannot provide documentation, but I can recall a painting showing = use of one by (I believe) mountain men. Miller painting perhaps? Dunno. Frank ------=_NextPart_000_0085_01C441B0.690DD420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    <Is there any documentation that supports the = use of=20 mountain men using a burden strap/tumpline?>
Pare
    I cannot provide documentation, but I can recall = a=20 painting showing use of one by (I believe) mountain men. Miller painting = perhaps? Dunno.
Frank
------=_NextPart_000_0085_01C441B0.690DD420-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Burden straps/tumplines. Date: 24 May 2004 19:14:03 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C441C3.46E6DE60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mountain Men tended to carry their loads for extended distances in = relatively open country. Like 1000 miles across the grand prairre. = They used mules and when they were not available they used horses. = Sometimes they used river travel to but I don't know of any references = to what they used to carry burdens on portages. Meek refers to making rope by braiding horse hair. And I have seen = references to trading with Indians for epishimores and some kind of = rope. In that case my money would be on rawhide buffalo potentially = with hair on. I know Chance Tiffie is from OK and he is good people, if you don't mind = mules. Maybe someone else can hook you up with him. Wynn Ormond Irish/Welch/Scotish/English Nation ;-) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Pare Bowlegs=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 3:23 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Burden straps/tumplines. Is there any documentation that supports the use of mountain men using = a burden strap/tumpline? If there is, were they twined from cordage, = braintan, or rawhide? Thanks in advance. Btw, is there anyone else on here from Oklahoma? Give me a holler, and = maybe we can get together soon. Pare Bowlegs Seminole Nation Our oral traditions is our documentation.=20 ----- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C441C3.46E6DE60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mountain Men tended to carry their = loads for=20 extended distances in relatively open country.  Like 1000 miles = across the=20 grand prairre.  They used mules and when they were not available = they used=20 horses.  Sometimes they used river travel to but I don't know of = any=20 references to what they used to carry burdens on portages.
 
Meek refers to making rope by braiding = horse=20 hair.  And I have seen references to trading with Indians for = epishimores=20 and some kind of rope.  In that case my money would be on rawhide=20 buffalo potentially with hair on.
 
I know Chance Tiffie is from OK and he = is good=20 people, if you don't mind mules.  Maybe someone else can hook you = up with=20 him.
Wynn Ormond
Irish/Welch/Scotish/English=20 Nation ;-)
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Pare=20 Bowlegs
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 3:23 = PM
Subject: MtMan-List: Burden=20 straps/tumplines.

Is there any documentation that supports the use of mountain men = using a=20 burden strap/tumpline? If there is, were they twined from cordage, = braintan,=20 or rawhide?
 
Thanks in advance.
 
Btw, is there anyone else on here from Oklahoma? Give me a = holler, and=20 maybe we can get together soon.
 
Pare Bowlegs
Seminole Nation
 


Our oral traditions is = our=20 documentation.=20

Do you Yahoo!?
Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo!=20 Messenger ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C441C3.46E6DE60-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trumpline Date: 24 May 2004 22:32:25 -0600 (MDT) Pasquinel used a tumpline in Centennial! Now there's some solid documentation! http://users.skynet.be/sky82359/centennial.html > using a burden strap/tumpline?> > Pare > I cannot provide documentation, but I can recall a painting showing > use of one by (I believe) mountain men. Miller painting perhaps? > Dunno. > Frank ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Samuel Keller Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clerk's Cap Date: 24 May 2004 22:26:02 -0700 (PDT) Thanks for the info. The Pattern there is missing the Bill, and I am too dense to figger it out. ;) Sam --- Gene Hickman wrote: > Try this article on the Northwest Journal website: > http://www.northwestjournal.ca/XII3.htm > > Now a "plug" for Angela Gottfred and the Northwest > Journal > http://www.northwestjournal.ca/. > It is one of the most comprehensive sites on the > Voyageur and the Canadian > Fur Trade that I have found. Of the dozen or so > discussion groups that I am > also a member of, the Voyager discussion group is > one of my favorites. I > highly recommend taking a look at the website and > consider joining the > discussion group. > > As Always, > Your Obedient Servant, > > Gene Hickman > > > > Anyone know where I can find a Pattern for a > Clerk's > > > Cap?? > > > > > > Thanks; > > > > > > Sam > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Clerk's Cap Date: 25 May 2004 06:44:55 -0600 which size do you need, I made up the three sizes with a seamstress friend if you need the patterns. larry ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: NaugaMok@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trumpline Date: 25 May 2004 20:22:20 EDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/24/2004 3:00:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Rifleman1776@cox-internet.com writes: I can recall a painting showing use of one by (I believe) mountain men. Miller painting perhaps? It's not in the book "The West of Alfred Jacob Miller". There are tumplines possibly used in 2 of the sketches in this book, & both instances are being used by Indians, In the sketch "Pawnee Indians migrating", one man is carrying a pack on his back with his arms up reaching over his sholders to support the pack. It's hard to see if he has a tumpline or not, but could have. The other sketch, "Encampment of Indians" has a mother with her baby in a cradle board on her back, as Miller puts it, "sustaining her child by a fillet around the brow" -- tumpline. All mountain men in this book are transporting goods by wagon, 2 wheel cart, or pack animal. There may be other sketches showing Mountain Men using tumplines, but not in this publication. Nauga Mok Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 5/24/2004 3:00:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Rifleman= 1776@cox-internet.com writes:
I can recall a painting showing use of one by=20= (I believe) mountain men. Miller painting perhaps?
It's not in the  book "The West of Alfred Jacob Miller".  The= re are tumplines possibly used in 2 of the sketches in this book, & both= instances are being used by Indians, In the sketch "Pawnee Indians mig= rating", one man is carrying a pack on his back with his arms up reaching ov= er his sholders to support the pack.  It's hard to see if he has a tump= line or not, but could have.  The other sketch, "Encampment of Indians"= has a mother with her baby in a cradle board on her back, as Miller puts it= , "sustaining her child by a fillet around the brow" -- tumpline.  All=20= mountain men in this book are transporting goods by wagon, 2 wheel cart, or=20= pack animal.  There may be other sketches showing Mountain Men using tu= mplines, but not in this publication.
 
 
= Nauga Mok
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trumpline Date: 26 May 2004 00:30:35 EDT --part1_1d7.2225dd2c.2de5776b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I will agree with Wynn for the most part they did use horses and Mules to pack there gear. But there were times when they had to take off on foot and pack there bedding and things. Zenas Leonard gives us this account from one of these times. They are starting out for Santafee almost 800 miles away on foot in January and they call me Crazy. On the morning of the 14th, finding every thing in readiness for our Santafee trip, we set out, each man with his bedding, rifle and nine Beaver skins, packed upon his back; leaving four men only to take care of our merchandize, and the two mules. The beaver skins we took for the purpose of trading to the inhabitants of Santafee for horses, mules, &c. We appointed from the middle of April till the middle of may, as our time for return- ing; and if we did not return within that time, our four men were to wait no longer, but return to the mouth of the Laramies river, to meet the rest of the company. Any way it does not say how they packed there gear but I would think a burden strap or trumpline like the Indians used made of rawhide or one made from a saddle chinch leather. Would be what they would have used because what ever they used to pack there gear would have had to been made from what ever they had at hand at the time. This my take on this. Crazy Cyot --part1_1d7.2225dd2c.2de5776b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I will agree=20= with Wynn for the most part they did use horses and Mules to pack there gear= . But there were times when they had to take off on foot and pack there bedd= ing and things. Zenas Leonard gives us this account from one of these times.= They are starting out for Santafee almost 800 miles away on foot in January= and they call me Crazy.

On the morning of the 14th, finding every thing in readiness for our San= tafee trip, we set out, each man with his bedding, rifle and nine Beaver ski= ns, packed upon his back; leaving four men only to take care of our merchand= ize, and the two mules. The beaver skins we took for the purpose of trading=20= to the inhabitants of Santafee for horses, mules, &c. We appointed from=20= the middle of April till the middle of may, as our time for return- ing; and= if we did not return within that time, our four men were to wait no longer,= but return to the mouth of the Laramies river, to meet the rest of the comp= any.=20

Any way it does not say how they packed there gear but I would think a b= urden strap or trumpline like the Indians used made of rawhide or one made f= rom a saddle chinch leather. Would be what they would have used because what= ever they used to pack there gear would have had to been made from what eve= r they had at hand at the time.

This my take on this.
Crazy Cyot=20









--part1_1d7.2225dd2c.2de5776b_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Samuel Keller Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Clerk's Cap Date: 26 May 2004 07:41:53 -0700 (PDT) That would be great, I wear a 7 5/8 (swelled head) but my wife wants to make more of them. --- Larry wrote: > which size do you need, I made up the three sizes > with a seamstress friend > if you need the patterns. > > larry > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rick Williams" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: trumpline Date: 26 May 2004 09:16:52 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C44334.795AAE94 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Crazy, When you say cinch leather, are you implying that cinches were of leather? Would that be a single piece or several strands? =20 =20 -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of GazeingCyot@cs.com Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 10:31 PM =20 I will agree with Wynn for the most part they did use horses and Mules to pack there gear. But there were times when they had to take off on foot and pack there bedding and things. Zenas Leonard gives us this account from one of these times. They are starting out for Santafee almost 800 miles away on foot in January and they call me Crazy.=20 On the morning of the 14th, finding every thing in readiness for our Santafee trip, we set out, each man with his bedding, rifle and nine Beaver skins, packed upon his back; leaving four men only to take care of our merchandize, and the two mules. The beaver skins we took for the purpose of trading to the inhabitants of Santafee for horses, mules, &c. We appointed from the middle of April till the middle of may, as our time for return- ing; and if we did not return within that time, our four men were to wait no longer, but return to the mouth of the Laramies river, to meet the rest of the company.=20 Any way it does not say how they packed there gear but I would think a burden strap or trumpline like the Indians used made of rawhide or one made from a saddle chinch leather. Would be what they would have used because what ever they used to pack there gear would have had to been made from what ever they had at hand at the time.=20 This my take on this.=20 Crazy Cyot=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C44334.795AAE94 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Crazy,=

When you say cinch leather, are you implying that cinches were of leather?  Would that be a single piece or = several strands?

 

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com = [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of = GazeingCyot@cs.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, = 2004 10:31 PM
To: = hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = trumpline

 

I will agree with Wynn for the most part they did use = horses and Mules to pack there gear. But there were times when they had to take = off on foot and pack there bedding and things. Zenas Leonard gives us this = account from one of these times. They are starting out for Santafee almost 800 = miles away on foot in January and they call me Crazy.

On the morning of the 14th, finding every thing in readiness for our = Santafee trip, we set out, each man with his bedding, rifle and nine Beaver = skins, packed upon his back; leaving four men only to take care of our merchandize, = and the two mules. The beaver skins we took for the purpose of trading to the inhabitants of Santafee for horses, mules, &c. We appointed from the = middle of April till the middle of may, as our time for return- ing; and if we = did not return within that time, our four men were to wait no longer, but return = to the mouth of the Laramies river, to meet the rest of the company.

Any way it does not say how they packed there gear but I would think a = burden strap or trumpline like the Indians used made of rawhide or one made = from a saddle chinch leather. Would be what they would have used because what = ever they used to pack there gear would have had to been made from what ever = they had at hand at the time.

This my take on this.
Crazy Cyot








=00 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C44334.795AAE94-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: RE: MtMan-List: trumpline Date: 26 May 2004 08:59:25 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C4433A.6AE715F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Good extract for discussion. I have not yet found any real mention of HOW expeditions on foot carried their gear - the farthest they get is something like "hoisting our bundles on our backs, we resumed the trail". So a tumpline (no "r" by the way) is a very likely period solution. What I find equally amazing is the MILEAGE - 1600 miles round trip in 3-4 months - works out to 15 miles day-in, day-out. This correlates with the 15-25 mile days reported by the expedition returning from Astoria after they lost their horses. These were hardy men! Pat Quilter -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 8:17 AM Crazy, When you say cinch leather, are you implying that cinches were of leather? Would that be a single piece or several strands? -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of GazeingCyot@cs.com Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 10:31 PM I will agree with Wynn for the most part they did use horses and Mules to pack there gear. But there were times when they had to take off on foot and pack there bedding and things. Zenas Leonard gives us this account from one of these times. They are starting out for Santafee almost 800 miles away on foot in January and they call me Crazy. On the morning of the 14th, finding every thing in readiness for our Santafee trip, we set out, each man with his bedding, rifle and nine Beaver skins, packed upon his back; leaving four men only to take care of our merchandize, and the two mules. The beaver skins we took for the purpose of trading to the inhabitants of Santafee for horses, mules, &c. We appointed from the middle of April till the middle of may, as our time for return- ing; and if we did not return within that time, our four men were to wait no longer, but return to the mouth of the Laramies river, to meet the rest of the company. Any way it does not say how they packed there gear but I would think a burden strap or trumpline like the Indians used made of rawhide or one made from a saddle chinch leather. Would be what they would have used because what ever they used to pack there gear would have had to been made from what ever they had at hand at the time. This my take on this. Crazy Cyot ------_=_NextPart_001_01C4433A.6AE715F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Good=20 extract for discussion. I have not yet found any real mention of HOW = expeditions=20 on foot carried their gear - the farthest they get is something like = "hoisting=20 our bundles on our backs, we resumed the trail". So a tumpline (no "r" = by the=20 way) is a very likely period solution.
 
What I=20 find equally amazing is the MILEAGE - 1600 miles round trip in 3-4 = months -=20 works out to 15 miles day-in, day-out. This correlates with the 15-25 = mile days=20 reported by the expedition returning from Astoria after they lost their = horses.=20 These were hardy men!
 
Pat=20 Quilter
-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Williams=20 [mailto:rick_williams@byu.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, = 2004 8:17=20 AM
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: RE:=20 MtMan-List: trumpline

Crazy,

When you = say cinch=20 leather, are you implying that cinches were of leather?  Would that be a single piece = or several=20 strands?

 

 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: = owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com = [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]=20 On Behalf Of=20 GazeingCyot@cs.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 = 10:31=20 PM
To:=20 hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:=20 trumpline

 

I will=20 agree with Wynn for the most part they did use horses and Mules to = pack there=20 gear. But there were times when they had to take off on foot and pack = there=20 bedding and things. Zenas Leonard gives us this account from one of = these=20 times. They are starting out for Santafee almost 800 miles away on = foot in=20 January and they call me Crazy.

On the morning of the 14th, = finding=20 every thing in readiness for our Santafee trip, we set out, each man = with his=20 bedding, rifle and nine Beaver skins, packed upon his back; leaving = four men=20 only to take care of our merchandize, and the two mules. The beaver = skins we=20 took for the purpose of trading to the inhabitants of Santafee for = horses,=20 mules, &c. We appointed from the middle of April till the middle = of may,=20 as our time for return- ing; and if we did not return within that = time, our=20 four men were to wait no longer, but return to the mouth of the = Laramies=20 river, to meet the rest of the company.

Any way it does not = say how=20 they packed there gear but I would think a burden strap or trumpline = like the=20 Indians used made of rawhide or one made from a saddle chinch = leather. Would=20 be what they would have used because what ever they used to pack = there gear=20 would have had to been made from what ever they had at hand at the = time.=20

This my take on this.
Crazy Cyot =






------_=_NextPart_001_01C4433A.6AE715F0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ben" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trumpline Date: 26 May 2004 10:14:28 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C4430A.3ADCCF60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Rick, When I read Crazy's post I thought of the latigo strap...just my = thoughts. I guess I should let Crazy answer the question though. It did = bring up the question in my mind if cinch straps back then were made = like modern one's. I think the latigo strap has gone probably gone the = way of all equipment and given way to newer...not neccisarily better... = ways. Ben ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Rick Williams=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 9:16 AM Subject: RE: MtMan-List: trumpline Crazy, When you say cinch leather, are you implying that cinches were of = leather? Would that be a single piece or several strands? =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com = [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of = GazeingCyot@cs.com Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 10:31 PM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trumpline =20 I will agree with Wynn for the most part they did use horses and Mules = to pack there gear. But there were times when they had to take off on = foot and pack there bedding and things. Zenas Leonard gives us this = account from one of these times. They are starting out for Santafee = almost 800 miles away on foot in January and they call me Crazy.=20 On the morning of the 14th, finding every thing in readiness for our = Santafee trip, we set out, each man with his bedding, rifle and nine = Beaver skins, packed upon his back; leaving four men only to take care = of our merchandize, and the two mules. The beaver skins we took for the = purpose of trading to the inhabitants of Santafee for horses, mules, &c. = We appointed from the middle of April till the middle of may, as our = time for return- ing; and if we did not return within that time, our = four men were to wait no longer, but return to the mouth of the Laramies = river, to meet the rest of the company.=20 Any way it does not say how they packed there gear but I would think a = burden strap or trumpline like the Indians used made of rawhide or one = made from a saddle chinch leather. Would be what they would have used = because what ever they used to pack there gear would have had to been = made from what ever they had at hand at the time.=20 This my take on this.=20 Crazy Cyot=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C4430A.3ADCCF60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Rick,
When I read Crazy's post I thought of = the latigo=20 strap...just my thoughts. I guess I should let Crazy answer the question = though.=20 It did bring up the question in my mind if cinch straps back then were = made like=20 modern one's. I think the latigo strap has gone probably gone the way of = all=20 equipment and given way to newer...not neccisarily better...=20 ways.
 
Ben
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Rick=20 Williams
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 = 9:16=20 AM
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: = trumpline

Crazy,

When you = say cinch=20 leather, are you implying that cinches were of leather?  Would that be a single piece = or several=20 strands?

 

 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: = owner-hist_text@lists.= xmission.com=20 [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of GazeingCyot@cs.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 = 10:31=20 PM
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:=20 trumpline

 

I will=20 agree with Wynn for the most part they did use horses and Mules to = pack there=20 gear. But there were times when they had to take off on foot and pack = there=20 bedding and things. Zenas Leonard gives us this account from one of = these=20 times. They are starting out for Santafee almost 800 miles away on = foot in=20 January and they call me Crazy.

On the morning of the 14th, = finding=20 every thing in readiness for our Santafee trip, we set out, each man = with his=20 bedding, rifle and nine Beaver skins, packed upon his back; leaving = four men=20 only to take care of our merchandize, and the two mules. The beaver = skins we=20 took for the purpose of trading to the inhabitants of Santafee for = horses,=20 mules, &c. We appointed from the middle of April till the middle = of may,=20 as our time for return- ing; and if we did not return within that = time, our=20 four men were to wait no longer, but return to the mouth of the = Laramies=20 river, to meet the rest of the company.

Any way it does not = say how=20 they packed there gear but I would think a burden strap or trumpline = like the=20 Indians used made of rawhide or one made from a saddle chinch leather. = Would=20 be what they would have used because what ever they used to pack there = gear=20 would have had to been made from what ever they had at hand at the = time.=20

This my take on this.
Crazy Cyot =






------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C4430A.3ADCCF60-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CHANCE TIFFIE Subject: MtMan-List: Cinches Date: 26 May 2004 17:46:44 -0700 (PDT) --0-1264938888-1085618804=:26592 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii A paper I have, entitled "Desciption of saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition," shows some interesting saddles of our period of interest. All appear to have latigo straps for attaching the cinch, but only two still have the original cinch. A "mexican" saddle of about 1835 has it's cinch, which appears to be heavy fabric webbing, finished with leather ends, and chafe pads. The cinch rings are D shaped, with tongues. The other is a "hybrid" saddle of about 1840, from the lower Missouri river region. Concerning the cinch, it says, "Single center rigging employs a tanned leather cinch strap attached to the off side side-board beneath the outer skirt. On the on side, it is secured by a square buckle suspended from a leather loop attached to the sideboard beneath the outer skirt. A rectangular leather flap attached to the sideboard lies just beneath this loop and buckle." This definitely does not tell the whole story, but I found it interesting, and thought I would pass it along. My wife and I, have been using the cinches from our saddles to carry our burdens for years. Instead of across the forehead, I prefer to carry the load over the balls of my shoulders. The latigo cinch straps would work as well. Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger --0-1264938888-1085618804=:26592 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

A paper I have, entitled "Desciption of saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition," shows some interesting saddles of our period of interest.  All appear to have latigo straps for attaching the cinch, but only two still have the original cinch.  A "mexican" saddle of about 1835 has it's cinch, which appears to be heavy fabric webbing, finished with leather ends, and chafe pads.  The  cinch rings are D shaped, with tongues.  The other is a "hybrid" saddle of about 1840, from the lower Missouri river region.  Concerning the cinch, it says, "Single center rigging employs a tanned leather cinch strap attached to the off side side-board beneath the outer skirt.  On the on side, it is secured by a square buckle suspended from a leather loop attached to the sideboard beneath the outer skirt.  A rectangular leather flap attached to the sideboard lies just beneath this loop and buckle."

This definitely does not tell the whole story, but I found it interesting, and thought I would pass it along.

My wife and I, have been using the cinches from our saddles to carry our burdens for years.  Instead of across the forehead, I prefer to carry the load over the balls of my shoulders.  The latigo cinch straps would work as well.

Do you Yahoo!?
Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger --0-1264938888-1085618804=:26592-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kim-Ken Carpenter" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: trumpline Date: 26 May 2004 18:07:52 -0700 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I found this on the net re tumplines. Go to: http://www.colonialmarket.com/nita/howto.html ----- Original Message ----- Sent: 5/26/2004 8:59:30 AM Good extract for discussion. I have not yet found any real mention of HOW expeditions on foot carried their gear - the farthest they get is something like "hoisting our bundles on our backs, we resumed the trail". So a tumpline (no "r" by the way) is a very likely period solution. What I find equally amazing is the MILEAGE - 1600 miles round trip in 3-4 months - works out to 15 miles day-in, day-out. This correlates with the 15-25 mile days reported by the expedition returning from Astoria after they lost their horses. These were hardy men! Pat Quilter -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 8:17 AM Crazy, When you say cinch leather, are you implying that cinches were of leather? Would that be a single piece or several strands? -----Original Message----- Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 10:31 PM I will agree with Wynn for the most part they did use horses and Mules to pack there gear. But there were times when they had to take off on foot and pack there bedding and things. Zenas Leonard gives us this account from one of these times. They are starting out for Santafee almost 800 miles away on foot in January and they call me Crazy. On the morning of the 14th, finding every thing in readiness for our Santafee trip, we set out, each man with his bedding, rifle and nine Beaver skins, packed upon his back; leaving four men only to take care of our merchandize, and the two mules. The beaver skins we took for the purpose of trading to the inhabitants of Santafee for horses, mules, &c. We appointed from the middle of April till the middle of may, as our time for return- ing; and if we did not return within that time, our four men were to wait no longer, but return to the mouth of the Laramies river, to meet the rest of the company. Any way it does not say how they packed there gear but I would think a burden strap or trumpline like the Indians used made of rawhide or one made from a saddle chinch leather. Would be what they would have used because what ever they used to pack there gear would have had to been made from what ever they had at hand at the time. This my take on this. Crazy Cyot ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
I found this on the net re tumplines.   Go to:
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/26/2004 8:59:30 AM
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: trumpline

Good extract for discussion. I have not yet found any real mention of HOW expeditions on foot carried their gear - the farthest they get is something like "hoisting our bundles on our backs, we resumed the trail". So a tumpline (no "r" by the way) is a very likely period solution.
 
What I find equally amazing is the MILEAGE - 1600 miles round trip in 3-4 months - works out to 15 miles day-in, day-out. This correlates with the 15-25 mile days reported by the expedition returning from Astoria after they lost their horses. These were hardy men!
 
Pat Quilter
-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Williams [mailto:rick_williams@byu.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 8:17 AM
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: trumpline

Crazy,

When you say cinch leather, are you implying that cinches were of leather?  Would that be a single piece or several strands?

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of GazeingCyot@cs.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 10:31 PM
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trumpline

 

I will agree with Wynn for the most part they did use horses and Mules to pack there gear. But there were times when they had to take off on foot and pack there bedding and things. Zenas Leonard gives us this account from one of these times. They are starting out for Santafee almost 800 miles away on foot in January and they call me Crazy.

On the morning of the 14th, finding every thing in readiness for our Santafee trip, we set out, each man with his bedding, rifle and nine Beaver skins, packed upon his back; leaving four men only to take care of our merchandize, and the two mules. The beaver skins we took for the purpose of trading to the inhabitants of Santafee for horses, mules, &c. We appointed from the middle of April till the middle of may, as our time for return- ing; and if we did not return within that time, our four men were to wait no longer, but return to the mouth of the Laramies river, to meet the rest of the company.

Any way it does not say how they packed there gear but I would think a burden strap or trumpline like the Indians used made of rawhide or one made from a saddle chinch leather. Would be what they would have used because what ever they used to pack there gear would have had to been made from what ever they had at hand at the time.

This my take on this.
Crazy Cyot








------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trumpline Date: 26 May 2004 22:27:11 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C44370.967B5600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am glad that some of you have picked this subject up and expanded it. = I think my answer, although for the most part accurate, was a bit = cavilier. The point being that burdens were sometimes carried on men's = backs and those men could easily been familiar with tumplines from their = earlier life. It would be much easier to justify something that easily = manufactured in a make do situation than to justify a nice framed pack = or pack basket. Another option is a modified panyard. That's the pair of bags that hang = on the side of a mule. The loops can be modified to make it serviceable = on a persons back. Pat, not to suggest that some of those boys weren't tough but if I = recall Lenards group had no idea how far they had to go and never made = it anyway. Am I wrong here? Wynn Ormond ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Pat Quilter=20 To: 'hist_text@lists.xmission.com'=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 9:59 AM Subject: RE: MtMan-List: trumpline Good extract for discussion. I have not yet found any real mention of = HOW expeditions on foot carried their gear - the farthest they get is = something like "hoisting our bundles on our backs, we resumed the = trail". So a tumpline (no "r" by the way) is a very likely period = solution.=20 What I find equally amazing is the MILEAGE - 1600 miles round trip in = 3-4 months - works out to 15 miles day-in, day-out. This correlates with = the 15-25 mile days reported by the expedition returning from Astoria = after they lost their horses. These were hardy men! Pat Quilter -----Original Message----- From: Rick Williams [mailto:rick_williams@byu.edu] Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 8:17 AM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: RE: MtMan-List: trumpline Crazy, When you say cinch leather, are you implying that cinches were of = leather? Would that be a single piece or several strands? =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com = [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of = GazeingCyot@cs.com Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 10:31 PM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trumpline =20 I will agree with Wynn for the most part they did use horses and = Mules to pack there gear. But there were times when they had to take off = on foot and pack there bedding and things. Zenas Leonard gives us this = account from one of these times. They are starting out for Santafee = almost 800 miles away on foot in January and they call me Crazy.=20 On the morning of the 14th, finding every thing in readiness for our = Santafee trip, we set out, each man with his bedding, rifle and nine = Beaver skins, packed upon his back; leaving four men only to take care = of our merchandize, and the two mules. The beaver skins we took for the = purpose of trading to the inhabitants of Santafee for horses, mules, &c. = We appointed from the middle of April till the middle of may, as our = time for return- ing; and if we did not return within that time, our = four men were to wait no longer, but return to the mouth of the Laramies = river, to meet the rest of the company.=20 Any way it does not say how they packed there gear but I would think = a burden strap or trumpline like the Indians used made of rawhide or one = made from a saddle chinch leather. Would be what they would have used = because what ever they used to pack there gear would have had to been = made from what ever they had at hand at the time.=20 This my take on this.=20 Crazy Cyot=20 ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C44370.967B5600 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am glad that some of you have picked = this subject=20 up and expanded it.  I think my answer, although for the most part=20 accurate, was a bit cavilier.  The point being that burdens were = sometimes=20 carried on men's backs and those men could easily been familiar with = tumplines=20 from their earlier life.  It would be much easier to justify = something that=20 easily manufactured in a make do situation than to justify a nice framed = pack or=20 pack basket.
 
Another option is a modified = panyard.  That's=20 the pair of bags that hang on the side of a mule.  The loops can be = modified to make it serviceable on a persons back.
 
 
Pat, not to suggest that some of those = boys weren't=20 tough but if I recall Lenards group had no idea how far they had to go = and never=20 made it anyway.  Am I wrong here?
Wynn Ormond
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Pat=20 Quilter
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 = 9:59=20 AM
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: = trumpline

Good=20 extract for discussion. I have not yet found any real mention of HOW=20 expeditions on foot carried their gear - the farthest they get is = something=20 like "hoisting our bundles on our backs, we resumed the trail". So a = tumpline=20 (no "r" by the way) is a very likely period solution.=20
 
What=20 I find equally amazing is the MILEAGE - 1600 miles round trip in 3-4 = months -=20 works out to 15 miles day-in, day-out. This correlates with the 15-25 = mile=20 days reported by the expedition returning from Astoria after they lost = their=20 horses. These were hardy men!
 
Pat=20 Quilter
-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Williams=20 [mailto:rick_williams@byu.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, = 2004 8:17=20 AM
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: RE: = MtMan-List: trumpline

Crazy,

When you = say cinch=20 leather, are you implying that cinches were of leather?  Would that be a single = piece or=20 several strands?

 

 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From:=20 owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of=20 GazeingCyot@cs.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 = 10:31=20 PM
To:=20 hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:=20 trumpline

 

I will=20 agree with Wynn for the most part they did use horses and Mules to = pack=20 there gear. But there were times when they had to take off on foot = and pack=20 there bedding and things. Zenas Leonard gives us this account from = one of=20 these times. They are starting out for Santafee almost 800 miles = away on=20 foot in January and they call me Crazy.

On the morning of = the 14th,=20 finding every thing in readiness for our Santafee trip, we set out, = each man=20 with his bedding, rifle and nine Beaver skins, packed upon his back; = leaving=20 four men only to take care of our merchandize, and the two mules. = The beaver=20 skins we took for the purpose of trading to the inhabitants of = Santafee for=20 horses, mules, &c. We appointed from the middle of April till = the middle=20 of may, as our time for return- ing; and if we did not return within = that=20 time, our four men were to wait no longer, but return to the mouth = of the=20 Laramies river, to meet the rest of the company.

Any way it = does not=20 say how they packed there gear but I would think a burden strap or = trumpline=20 like the Indians used made of rawhide or one made from a saddle = chinch=20 leather. Would be what they would have used because what ever they = used to=20 pack there gear would have had to been made from what ever they had = at hand=20 at the time.

This my take on this.
Crazy Cyot=20







------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C44370.967B5600-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cinches Date: 26 May 2004 22:36:43 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C44371.EB91C1A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chance can you tell us more about the paper you mentioned? Like what = Renwick is and how good the research is and how to get a copy. Wynn Ormond ----- Original Message -----=20 From: CHANCE TIFFIE=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 6:46 PM Subject: MtMan-List: Cinches A paper I have, entitled "Desciption of saddlery in the Renwick = Exhibition," shows some interesting saddles of our period of interest. = All appear to have latigo straps for attaching the cinch, but only two = still have the original cinch. A "mexican" saddle of about 1835 has = it's cinch, which appears to be heavy fabric webbing, finished with = leather ends, and chafe pads. The cinch rings are D shaped, with = tongues. The other is a "hybrid" saddle of about 1840, from the lower = Missouri river region. Concerning the cinch, it says, "Single center = rigging employs a tanned leather cinch strap attached to the off side = side-board beneath the outer skirt. On the on side, it is secured by a = square buckle suspended from a leather loop attached to the sideboard = beneath the outer skirt. A rectangular leather flap attached to the = sideboard lies just beneath this loop and buckle." This definitely does not tell the whole story, but I found it = interesting, and thought I would pass it along. My wife and I, have been using the cinches from our saddles to carry = our burdens for years. Instead of across the forehead, I prefer to = carry the load over the balls of my shoulders. The latigo cinch straps = would work as well. ----- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C44371.EB91C1A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Chance can you tell us more about the = paper you=20 mentioned?  Like what Renwick is and how good the research is and = how to=20 get a copy.
 
 
Wynn Ormond
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 CHANCE = TIFFIE=20
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 = 6:46=20 PM
Subject: MtMan-List: = Cinches

A paper I have, entitled "Desciption of saddlery in the Renwick=20 Exhibition," shows some interesting saddles of our period of = interest. =20 All appear to have latigo straps for attaching the cinch, but only two = still=20 have the original cinch.  A "mexican" saddle of about 1835 has = it's=20 cinch, which appears to be heavy fabric webbing, finished with leather = ends,=20 and chafe pads.  The  cinch rings are D shaped, with = tongues. =20 The other is a "hybrid" saddle of about 1840, from the lower Missouri = river=20 region.  Concerning the cinch, it says, "Single center rigging = employs a=20 tanned leather cinch strap attached to the off side side-board beneath = the=20 outer skirt.  On the on side, it is secured by a square buckle = suspended=20 from a leather loop attached to the sideboard beneath the outer = skirt.  A=20 rectangular leather flap attached to the sideboard lies just beneath = this loop=20 and buckle."

This definitely does not tell the whole story, but I found it = interesting,=20 and thought I would pass it along.

My wife and I, have been using the cinches from our saddles to = carry our=20 burdens for years.  Instead of across the forehead, I prefer to = carry the=20 load over the balls of my shoulders.  The latigo cinch straps = would work=20 as well.

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Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo!=20 Messenger
------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C44371.EB91C1A0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: RE: MtMan-List: trumpline Date: 26 May 2004 21:50:22 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C443A6.1E139B10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I do recall Leanard's group foundering in a snow-bound pass and barely getting out alive (an amazing tale in itself). So it was "even tougher" than they bargained for! You're right about paniards and their utility for back-packing. Ditto with saddlebags. Best regards Pat -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 9:27 PM I am glad that some of you have picked this subject up and expanded it. I think my answer, although for the most part accurate, was a bit cavilier. The point being that burdens were sometimes carried on men's backs and those men could easily been familiar with tumplines from their earlier life. It would be much easier to justify something that easily manufactured in a make do situation than to justify a nice framed pack or pack basket. Another option is a modified panyard. That's the pair of bags that hang on the side of a mule. The loops can be modified to make it serviceable on a persons back. Pat, not to suggest that some of those boys weren't tough but if I recall Lenards group had no idea how far they had to go and never made it anyway. Am I wrong here? Wynn Ormond ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 9:59 AM Good extract for discussion. I have not yet found any real mention of HOW expeditions on foot carried their gear - the farthest they get is something like "hoisting our bundles on our backs, we resumed the trail". So a tumpline (no "r" by the way) is a very likely period solution. What I find equally amazing is the MILEAGE - 1600 miles round trip in 3-4 months - works out to 15 miles day-in, day-out. This correlates with the 15-25 mile days reported by the expedition returning from Astoria after they lost their horses. These were hardy men! Pat Quilter -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 8:17 AM Crazy, When you say cinch leather, are you implying that cinches were of leather? Would that be a single piece or several strands? -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of GazeingCyot@cs.com Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 10:31 PM I will agree with Wynn for the most part they did use horses and Mules to pack there gear. But there were times when they had to take off on foot and pack there bedding and things. Zenas Leonard gives us this account from one of these times. They are starting out for Santafee almost 800 miles away on foot in January and they call me Crazy. On the morning of the 14th, finding every thing in readiness for our Santafee trip, we set out, each man with his bedding, rifle and nine Beaver skins, packed upon his back; leaving four men only to take care of our merchandize, and the two mules. The beaver skins we took for the purpose of trading to the inhabitants of Santafee for horses, mules, &c. We appointed from the middle of April till the middle of may, as our time for return- ing; and if we did not return within that time, our four men were to wait no longer, but return to the mouth of the Laramies river, to meet the rest of the company. Any way it does not say how they packed there gear but I would think a burden strap or trumpline like the Indians used made of rawhide or one made from a saddle chinch leather. Would be what they would have used because what ever they used to pack there gear would have had to been made from what ever they had at hand at the time. This my take on this. Crazy Cyot ------_=_NextPart_001_01C443A6.1E139B10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I do=20 recall Leanard's group foundering in a snow-bound pass and barely = getting out=20 alive (an amazing tale in itself). So it was "even tougher" than they = bargained=20 for!
You're=20 right about paniards and their utility for back-packing. Ditto with = saddlebags.=20
Best=20 regards
Pat
-----Original Message-----
From: Wynn Ormond=20 [mailto:cheyenne@pcu.net]
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 = 9:27=20 PM
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re:=20 MtMan-List: trumpline

I am glad that some of you have = picked this=20 subject up and expanded it.  I think my answer, although for the = most=20 part accurate, was a bit cavilier.  The point being that burdens = were=20 sometimes carried on men's backs and those men could easily been = familiar with=20 tumplines from their earlier life.  It would be much easier to = justify=20 something that easily manufactured in a make do situation than to = justify a=20 nice framed pack or pack basket.
 
Another option is a modified = panyard. =20 That's the pair of bags that hang on the side of a mule.  The = loops can=20 be modified to make it serviceable on a persons back.
 
 
Pat, not to suggest that some of = those boys=20 weren't tough but if I recall Lenards group had no idea how far they = had to go=20 and never made it anyway.  Am I wrong here?
Wynn Ormond
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Pat=20 Quilter
To: 'hist_text@lists.xmission.com' =
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, = 2004 9:59=20 AM
Subject: RE: MtMan-List:=20 trumpline

Good extract for discussion. I have not = yet found=20 any real mention of HOW expeditions on foot carried their gear - = the=20 farthest they get is something like "hoisting our bundles on our = backs, we=20 resumed the trail". So a tumpline (no "r" by the way) is a = very likely=20 period solution.
 
What I find equally amazing is the = MILEAGE - 1600=20 miles round trip in 3-4 months - works out to 15 miles day-in, = day-out. This=20 correlates with the 15-25 mile days reported by the expedition = returning=20 from Astoria after they lost their horses. These were hardy=20 men!
 
Pat Quilter
-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Williams = [mailto:rick_williams@byu.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, = 2004=20 8:17 AM
To: = hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: RE:=20 MtMan-List: trumpline

Crazy,

When = you say=20 cinch leather, are you implying that cinches were of leather? =  Would that be a single = piece or=20 several strands?

 

 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From:=20 owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of=20 GazeingCyot@cs.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, = 2004 10:31=20 PM
To:=20 hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:=20 trumpline

 

I will=20 agree with Wynn for the most part they did use horses and Mules = to pack=20 there gear. But there were times when they had to take off on = foot and=20 pack there bedding and things. Zenas Leonard gives us this = account from=20 one of these times. They are starting out for Santafee almost 800 = miles=20 away on foot in January and they call me Crazy.

On the = morning of=20 the 14th, finding every thing in readiness for our Santafee trip, = we set=20 out, each man with his bedding, rifle and nine Beaver skins, = packed upon=20 his back; leaving four men only to take care of our merchandize, = and the=20 two mules. The beaver skins we took for the purpose of trading to = the=20 inhabitants of Santafee for horses, mules, &c. We appointed = from the=20 middle of April till the middle of may, as our time for return- = ing; and=20 if we did not return within that time, our four men were to wait = no=20 longer, but return to the mouth of the Laramies river, to meet = the rest of=20 the company.

Any way it does not say how they packed = there gear=20 but I would think a burden strap or trumpline like the Indians = used made=20 of rawhide or one made from a saddle chinch leather. Would be = what they=20 would have used because what ever they used to pack there gear = would have=20 had to been made from what ever they had at hand at the time. =

This=20 my take on this.
Crazy Cyot






------_=_NextPart_001_01C443A6.1E139B10-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Larry" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Clerk's Cap Date: 27 May 2004 06:16:48 -0600 send me your snail mail address. -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Samuel Keller Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 8:42 AM That would be great, I wear a 7 5/8 (swelled head) but my wife wants to make more of them. --- Larry wrote: > which size do you need, I made up the three sizes > with a seamstress friend > if you need the patterns. > > larry > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CHANCE TIFFIE Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cinches Date: 27 May 2004 05:37:53 -0700 (PDT) --0-2110374195-1085661473=:17966 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Wynn, The paper entitled"Description of saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition," was written by Ann Nelson, Utah Museum of Natural History, University of Utah, Salt Lake city, Utah 84112. The Renwick exhibition was a collection of saddles from the Department of Anthropology, private owners, and the National Museum of History and Technology. As far as the research, these saddles were thoroughly examined by the, Anthropology Conservation Laboratory, and the Smithsonian Conservation Analytical Laboratory. Although the paper is entitled as mentioned, the upper right hand corner of each page says"Smithsonian Studies in History and Technology." Unfortunately the paper I have is only a partial copy of the whole, omitting the native saddles, and others of later manufacture. If you would like a copy of the pages that I have, I will be glad to send them to you. Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger --0-2110374195-1085661473=:17966 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Wynn,

The paper entitled"Description of saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition," was written by Ann Nelson, Utah Museum of Natural History, University of Utah, Salt Lake city, Utah 84112.

The Renwick exhibition was a collection of saddles from the Department of Anthropology, private owners, and the National Museum of History and Technology.

As far as the research, these saddles were thoroughly examined by the, Anthropology Conservation Laboratory, and the Smithsonian Conservation Analytical Laboratory.

Although the paper is entitled as mentioned, the upper right hand corner of each page says"Smithsonian Studies in History and Technology."  Unfortunately the paper I have is only a partial copy of the whole,  omitting the native saddles, and others of later manufacture. If you would like a copy of the pages that I have, I will be glad to send them to you.

 

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Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger --0-2110374195-1085661473=:17966-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jerry Bell" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Cinches Date: 27 May 2004 07:13:24 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C443BA.1D8CEED0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been doing a lot of studying of saddles. I would love a copy of the pages you have of this paper. How would I be able to get a complete copy? Jerry -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of CHANCE TIFFIE Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 6:38 AM Wynn, The paper entitled"Description of saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition," was written by Ann Nelson, Utah Museum of Natural History, University of Utah, Salt Lake city, Utah 84112. The Renwick exhibition was a collection of saddles from the Department of Anthropology, private owners, and the National Museum of History and Technology. As far as the research, these saddles were thoroughly examined by the, Anthropology Conservation Laboratory, and the Smithsonian Conservation Analytical Laboratory. Although the paper is entitled as mentioned, the upper right hand corner of each page says"Smithsonian Studies in History and Technology." Unfortunately the paper I have is only a partial copy of the whole, omitting the native saddles, and others of later manufacture. If you would like a copy of the pages that I have, I will be glad to send them to you. _____ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C443BA.1D8CEED0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have been doing a lot of studying = of saddles.  I would love a copy of the pages you have of this = paper.  How would I be able to get a complete copy?

 

Jerry

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com = [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of CHANCE TIFFIE
Sent: Thursday, May 27, = 2004 6:38 AM
To: = hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = Cinches

 

Wynn,

The paper entitled"Description of = saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition," was written by Ann Nelson, Utah Museum of = Natural History, University of Utah, Salt Lake city, Utah = 84112.

The Renwick exhibition was a collection of = saddles from the Department of Anthropology, private owners, and the National = Museum of History and Technology.

As far as the research, these saddles were = thoroughly examined by the, Anthropology Conservation Laboratory, and the = Smithsonian Conservation Analytical Laboratory.

Although the paper is entitled as mentioned, = the upper right hand corner of each page says"Smithsonian Studies in History = and Technology."  Unfortunately the paper I have is only a partial = copy of the whole,  omitting the native saddles, and others of later manufacture. If you would like a copy of the pages that I have, I will = be glad to send them to you.

 

Do you Yahoo!?
Friends. Fun. Try the all-new = Yahoo! Messenger

------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C443BA.1D8CEED0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Glenn Darilek" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tumpline Date: 27 May 2004 10:07:11 -0500 We discussed how the mountaineers carried stuff when they were unfortunate enough to have to walk on these pages some time back, and back in January of this year. I don't think the Leonard quote was mentioned before, but I posted that Charles Larpenter used a saddle bag. Charles Larpenter was a clerk, trader, and independent agent on the upper Missouri from 1833 to 1872. He kept a daily journal that provides us a fine window into history. His journals were first published in 1898 as "Forty Years a Fur Trader." A more recent University of Nebraska Press Bison Book was published in 1989. On July 3, 1834 Larpenter wrote: "My load to Fort Union was not very encumbering; my old saddle bags, made of a yard of brown muslin, sewed at both ends with a slit in the middle, containing two red flannel shirts, pretty well worn, and one check shirt, and one old white 3-point blanket, were about all I had brought to Fort Union; my tin pan and cup I left behind." I wrote of an experiment where I emulated Larpenter on a short jaunt I took several years ago. It is lengthy, so I will not repost it unless someone asks. My impression of a tumpline is that it is a torture device that keeps on giving pain the next morning in the form of a crick in the neck. To add insult to injury, it prevents the wearer from enjoying a walk by keeping the user facing straight ahead on the trail. Maybe not too healthy in hostile territory. But, the mountaineers were not whiners and it may be historically correct - another chink in the armor of the pseudo-science of experimental archaeology. Iron Burner Glenn Darilek ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tumpline Date: 27 May 2004 10:01:49 -0600 (MDT) Iron Burner, You should come to Fort Union this June (June 17-20) for the Annual Rendezvous held there. It is great to stand in rooms and in the bastions that Larpenteur describes in his fine journal. All the rangers there quote Larpenteur too like he is an old friend. I didn't appreciate Fort Union until I read his journal. One of the Park Rangers, Dennis, even took the large American Fur Company Flag that flew over the fort and hung it in a tree over Larpenteur's grave which I believe is in the midwest. I'm inviting you to come. I don't know if you have ever been there. This years rendezvous guest speaker is James Hanson. I'd also like to read the story of your jaunt. bb > We discussed how the mountaineers carried stuff when they were > unfortunate enough to have to walk on these pages some time back, and > back in January of this year. I don't think the Leonard quote was > mentioned before, but I posted that Charles Larpenter used a saddle bag. > Charles Larpenter was a clerk, trader, and independent agent on the > upper Missouri from 1833 to 1872. He kept a daily journal that provides > us a fine window into history. His journals were first published in 1898 > as "Forty Years a Fur Trader." A more recent University of Nebraska > Press Bison Book was published in 1989. > > On July 3, 1834 Larpenter wrote: "My load to Fort Union was not very > encumbering; my old saddle bags, made of a yard of brown muslin, sewed > at both ends with a slit in the middle, containing two red flannel > shirts, pretty well worn, and one check shirt, and one old white 3-point > blanket, were about all I had brought to Fort Union; my tin pan and cup > I left behind." > > I wrote of an experiment where I emulated Larpenter on a short jaunt I > took several years ago. It is lengthy, so I will not repost it unless > someone asks. > > My impression of a tumpline is that it is a torture device that keeps on > giving pain the next morning in the form of a crick in the neck. To add > insult to injury, it prevents the wearer from enjoying a walk by keeping > the user facing straight ahead on the trail. Maybe not too healthy in > hostile territory. But, the mountaineers were not whiners and it may be > historically correct - another chink in the armor of the pseudo-science > of experimental archaeology. > > Iron Burner > Glenn Darilek > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cheyenne" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Cinches Date: 27 May 2004 10:34:44 -0800 Jerry

If I gett a chance I will do some research through my local college (USU) and see if I can come up with something.  I am in Utah so I might be able to get some info from the Museum that Chance refers to.

Wynn

--------- Original Message --------
From: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
To: "hist_text@lists.xmission.com" <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Cinches
Date: 27/05/04 13:14

I have been doing a lot of studying of saddles.  I would love a copy of the pages you have of this paper.  How would I be able to get a complete copy?

 

Jerry

 

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of CHANCE TIFFIE
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 6:38 AM
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cinches

 

Wynn,

The paper entitled"Description of saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition," was written by Ann Nelson, Utah Museum of Natural History, University of Utah, Salt Lake city, Utah 84112.

The Renwick exhibition was a collection of saddles from the Department of Anthropology, private owners, and the National Museum of History and Technology.

As far as the research, these saddles were thoroughly examined by the, Anthropology Conservation Laboratory, and the Smithsonian Conservation Analytical Laboratory.

Although the paper is entitled as mentioned, the upper right hand corner of each page says"Smithsonian Studies in History and Technology."  Unfortunately the paper I have is only a partial copy of the whole,  omitting the native saddles, and others of later manufacture. If you would like a copy of the pages that I have, I will be glad to send them to you.

 

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Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger



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---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "RP Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tumpline Date: 27 May 2004 11:27:02 -0700 Iron Burner, Something in your contribution below seems to imply that a tumpline must be used across the forehead like a "burden strap" which to my understanding is a very "Indian" tool for carrying "burdens", usually depicted as being used by women but perhaps also by men in non-horse cultures such as in the SW tribes (four corners area). I've always used a "Tumpline" across my chest starting from above one shoulder, then diagonally to below the opposite arm. Not that it is very comfortable but surely more so than across the forehead of one not used to such a method and in both of those styles of course not as comfortable as two straps from a "pack" or "knap sack" style system. And Mr. Larpenter's description of "saddle bags" sounds suspiciously like a "new improved haversack" but without the two shoulder straps, also not a particularly wonderful way of carrying a load on your person. I'm thinking that the question of whether they did or did not do one thing or another may boil down to what was to be carried, what materials they had to fabricate a carrying system and finally by what they might have seen or used in their past that would suggest "this is how it should be done". YMOS Capt. Lahti' ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: trumpline Date: 27 May 2004 13:57:50 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C443F2.9931A250 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Capt'n said <> He has to be correct in that approach. But it is not a complete = analysis of what the MM guys might have done in varying circumstances. Yes, it has been established that their travel included strings of = horses and mules to the carrying. But those are animals that are/were = subject to injury, starvation, disease, falling down cliffs, being = stolen or even eaten. If the trappers lost their pack animals they did not have the option = of calling a taxi with their cel phones or staying in one spot = permanently. Carrying their goods themselves had to have happened on occasion = whether they liked it or not. A trumpline does allow additional weight = to be carried and balanced more than just shoulder straps. And, a little = known fact about the human body. Neck muscles have the amazing = capability of strengthening more quickly than other muscles. It would = not take long for the neck to become adapted to the stress of a pull on = the forehead. Frank ------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C443F2.9931A250 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    The Capt'n said
        <<I'm thinking that the = question of whether they did or did not do one thing
or another may = boil down=20 to what was to be carried, what materials they had
to fabricate a = carrying=20 system and finally by what they might have seen or
used in their past = that=20 would suggest "this is how it should be done".>>
    He has to be correct in that approach. But it is = not a=20 complete analysis of what the MM guys might have done in varying=20 circumstances.
    Yes, it has been established that their travel = included=20 strings of horses and mules to the carrying. But those are animals that = are/were=20 subject to injury, starvation, disease, falling down cliffs, being = stolen or=20 even eaten.
    If the trappers lost their pack animals they did = not=20 have the option of calling a taxi with their cel phones or staying in = one spot=20 permanently.
    Carrying their goods themselves had to have = happened on=20 occasion whether they liked it or not. A trumpline does allow additional = weight=20 to be carried and balanced more than just shoulder straps. And, a little = known=20 fact about the human body. Neck muscles have the amazing capability of=20 strengthening more quickly than other muscles. It would not take long = for the=20 neck to become adapted to the stress of a pull on the forehead.
Frank
------=_NextPart_000_0057_01C443F2.9931A250-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jerry Bell" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Cinches Date: 27 May 2004 13:13:35 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0083_01C443EC.6B9BEC20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I live in Salt Lake City. I just called the Museum. They are doing = some research for me and will call me back. When I learn something, I will = let you know. =20 Jerry =20 -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Cheyenne Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 12:35 PM =20 Jerry If I gett a chance I will do some research through my local college = (USU) and see if I can come up with something. I am in Utah so I might be = able to get some info from the Museum that Chance refers to. Wynn --------- Original Message -------- I have been doing a lot of studying of saddles. I would love a copy of = the pages you have of this paper. How would I be able to get a complete = copy? =20 Jerry =20 -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of CHANCE TIFFIE Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 6:38 AM =20 Wynn, The paper entitled"Description of saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition," = was written by Ann Nelson, Utah Museum of Natural History, University of = Utah, Salt Lake city, Utah 84112. The Renwick exhibition was a collection of saddles from the Department = of Anthropology, private owners, and the National Museum of History and Technology. As far as the research, these saddles were thoroughly examined by the, Anthropology Conservation Laboratory, and the Smithsonian Conservation Analytical Laboratory. Although the paper is entitled as mentioned, the upper right hand corner = of each page says"Smithsonian Studies in History and Technology." Unfortunately the paper I have is only a partial copy of the whole, omitting the native saddles, and others of later manufacture. If you = would like a copy of the pages that I have, I will be glad to send them to = you. =20 _____ =20 Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger ________________________________________________ Message sent using pcu.net webmail 2.7.2 ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0083_01C443EC.6B9BEC20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I live in Salt Lake City.  I just = called the Museum.  They are doing some research for me and will call me = back.  When I learn something, I will let you know.

 

Jerry

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: = owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Cheyenne
Sent: Thursday, May 27, = 2004 12:35 PM
To: = hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: = Cinches

 

Jerry

If I gett a chance I will do some research through my local college (USU) and see if I can come up with something.  I am in Utah = so I might be able to get some info from the Museum that Chance refers = to.

Wynn

--------- Original Message --------
<hist_text@lists.xmission.com>

I have been = doing a lot of studying of saddles.  I would love a copy of the pages you have = of this paper.  How would I be able to get a complete = copy?

 

Jerry

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com = [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of CHANCE TIFFIE
Sent: Thursday, May 27, = 2004 6:38 AM
To: = hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = Cinches

 

Wynn,

The paper entitled"Description of = saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition," was written by Ann Nelson, Utah Museum of = Natural History, University of Utah, Salt Lake city, Utah = 84112.

The Renwick exhibition was a collection of = saddles from the Department of Anthropology, private owners, and the National = Museum of History and Technology.

As far as the research, these saddles were = thoroughly examined by the, Anthropology Conservation Laboratory, and the = Smithsonian Conservation Analytical Laboratory.

Although the paper is entitled as mentioned, = the upper right hand corner of each page says"Smithsonian Studies in History = and Technology."  Unfortunately the paper I have is only a partial = copy of the whole,  omitting the native saddles, and others of later manufacture. If you would like a copy of the pages that I have, I will = be glad to send them to you.

 

Do you Yahoo!?
Friends. Fun. Try the all-new = Yahoo! Messenger



________________________________________________
Message sent using pcu.net webmail 2.7.2
---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

------=_NextPart_000_0083_01C443EC.6B9BEC20-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jerry Bell" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Cinches Date: 27 May 2004 13:15:25 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0088_01C443EC.ACEF18F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I hope I am not being redundant by sending this to the same person = twice, but I have been doing a lot of research on saddles and there is not a = lot of information out there. I would love a copy of this paper in any form I = can get it. I live in Salt Lake City so I just called the Museum and they = are doing some research for me. When I learn something, I will pass it = along. =20 Jerry =20 -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of CHANCE TIFFIE Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 6:38 AM =20 Wynn, The paper entitled"Description of saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition," = was written by Ann Nelson, Utah Museum of Natural History, University of = Utah, Salt Lake city, Utah 84112. The Renwick exhibition was a collection of saddles from the Department = of Anthropology, private owners, and the National Museum of History and Technology. As far as the research, these saddles were thoroughly examined by the, Anthropology Conservation Laboratory, and the Smithsonian Conservation Analytical Laboratory. Although the paper is entitled as mentioned, the upper right hand corner = of each page says"Smithsonian Studies in History and Technology." Unfortunately the paper I have is only a partial copy of the whole, omitting the native saddles, and others of later manufacture. If you = would like a copy of the pages that I have, I will be glad to send them to = you. =20 _____ =20 Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger ------=_NextPart_000_0088_01C443EC.ACEF18F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I hope I am not being redundant by = sending this to the same person twice, but I have been doing a lot of research = on saddles and there is not a lot of information out there.  I would = love a copy of this paper in any form I can get it.  I live in = Salt Lake City so I just = called the Museum and they are doing some research for me.  When I learn = something, I will pass it along.

 

Jerry

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com = [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of CHANCE TIFFIE
Sent: Thursday, May 27, = 2004 6:38 AM
To: = hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: = Cinches

 

Wynn,

The paper entitled"Description of = saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition," was written by Ann Nelson, Utah Museum of = Natural History, University of Utah, Salt Lake city, Utah = 84112.

The Renwick exhibition was a collection of = saddles from the Department of Anthropology, private owners, and the National = Museum of History and Technology.

As far as the research, these saddles were = thoroughly examined by the, Anthropology Conservation Laboratory, and the = Smithsonian Conservation Analytical Laboratory.

Although the paper is entitled as mentioned, = the upper right hand corner of each page says"Smithsonian Studies in History = and Technology."  Unfortunately the paper I have is only a partial = copy of the whole,  omitting the native saddles, and others of later manufacture. If you would like a copy of the pages that I have, I will = be glad to send them to you.

 

Do you Yahoo!?
Friends. Fun. Try the all-new = Yahoo! Messenger

------=_NextPart_000_0088_01C443EC.ACEF18F0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "RP Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trumpline Date: 27 May 2004 16:51:14 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C5_01C4440A.D264F550 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Frank, Sure it is. First off I really do believe that a "tumpline" is not = used across the forehead (might be wrong about that but I don't think = so). That is called a "burden strap" and I believe it was commonly used = by un-horsed Indians, Eastern Indians, SW Indians, SE Indians, Voyageurs = with very heavy loads in particular.=20 A "tumpline" being used across the chest either from shoulder to = shoulder or at an angle might be more often used by a "hunter" or = traveler carrying a fairly light load (bedroll with a few personal = belongings inside) would be one choice for a "Mt. Man" caught afoot and = all depending on his load. And depending as I suggested on his = experience in the context of what he was familiar with or what he had = seen done in such circumstances. And again, on what he had to make up a = carrying system. There really is no diffinitive answer as to what they might have done = except in such rare instances where an individual such as our Mr. = Larpenuer actually recorded what he had and used.=20 Whether the neck muscles adapt fast or not is of less importance than = what our individual was familiar with. He might know to choose that or = he might not. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------=_NextPart_000_00C5_01C4440A.D264F550 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
 
    <He has to be correct in that approach. But = it is=20 not a complete analysis of what the MM guys might have done in varying = circumstances.>
 
Frank,
 
Sure it is. First = off I really=20 do believe that a "tumpline" is not used across the forehead (might be = wrong=20 about that but I don't think so). That is called a "burden strap" and = I=20 believe it was commonly used by un-horsed Indians, Eastern Indians, SW = Indians, SE Indians, Voyageurs with very heavy loads in particular.=20
 
A "tumpline" being = used across=20 the chest either from shoulder to shoulder or at an angle might be = more often=20 used by a "hunter" or traveler carrying a fairly light load (bedroll = with a=20 few personal belongings inside) would be one choice for a "Mt. Man" = caught=20 afoot and all depending on his load. And depending as I suggested on = his=20 experience in the context of what he was familiar with or what he had = seen=20 done in such circumstances. And again, on what he had to make up a = carrying=20 system.
 
There really is no = diffinitive=20 answer as to what they might have done except in such rare instances = where an=20 individual such as our Mr. Larpenuer actually recorded what he had and = used.=20
 
Whether the neck = muscles adapt=20 fast or not is of less importance than what our individual was = familiar with.=20 He might know to choose that or he might not.
 
YMOS
Capt.=20 Lahti'
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_00C5_01C4440A.D264F550-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JW Stephens Subject: Re: MtMan-List: tumpline Date: 27 May 2004 17:11:27 -0700 Cap'n Lahti wrote: > Something in [Iron Burner's] contribution below seems to > imply that a tumpline must be used across the forehead > like a "burden strap" which to my understanding is a very > "Indian" tool for carrying "burdens", usually depicted > as being used by women but perhaps also by men in > non-horse cultures such as in the SW tribes (four corners > area). I have read of the voyaguers using tumplined loads for portages, but I can't put my finger on just where I read it. I recall that I read it because I was struck by the size of the bundles that were portaged. One assortment was hefted, the othe was tumplined. Like 100 kilo of goods, over sketchy trails, usually inclined and exposed. Voyaguers didn't have horses, and weren't mountain men, but they were integral to the fur trade until Ashley took to the Platte and Sweetwater 'sted of the upper Missouri. Do you think that he suddenly forgot about years of working up the rivers with trade goods? Sometimes I wonder at how some views of the RM fur trade seem to grow it in a vacuum, shut off from the rest, and the history, of the fur trade. Short of those who came to the mountains from south of Santafee (thus excluding the St. Louis > Santafee traders) the youth of most of the mountain men had a large "on the river and riverfront" component. There they learned from what they saw, and if anyone posits that they didn't see voyaguers, well then they saw, and learned from others who did. > I've always used a "Tumpline" across my chest starting > from above one shoulder, then diagonally to below the > opposite arm. Not that it is very comfortable but surely > more so than across the forehead of one not used to such > a method and in both of those styles of course not as > comfortable as two straps from a "pack" or "knap sack" > style system. What's nice about a tumplined bundle in hilly country, is that it shifts easily from back, for going uphill, to front for downill, or above the head for moving through brush. > And Mr. Larpenter's description of "saddle bags" sounds > suspiciously like a "new improved haversack" but without > the two shoulder straps, also not a particularly > wonderful way of carrying a load on your person. Not all that bad, though, if packed well. My New Improved Haversack usually hold some small goods, but most are rolled into my blankets which the haversack buckles around. What makes it more tolerable is that the way that you "wear" the haversack can be adapted to deal with terrain, fatigue, and other burdens. It works well tumplined when heading uphill. Sorry that I still have not been able to provide the cite that the original poster asked for. It's an interesting subject, though. B'st'rd ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Clerk's Cap Date: 27 May 2004 07:11:13 -0500 michael pierce #4 mill hollow eureka springs ark 72632 1-479-363-9495 thanks hawk On Thu, 27 May 2004 06:16:48 -0600 "Larry" writes: > send me your snail mail address. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Samuel > Keller > Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 8:42 AM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Clerk's Cap > > > That would be great, I wear a 7 5/8 (swelled head) but > my wife wants to make more of them. > --- Larry wrote: > > which size do you need, I made up the three sizes > > with a seamstress friend > > if you need the patterns. > > > > larry > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. > http://messenger.yahoo.com/ > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pare Bowlegs Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trumpline Date: 27 May 2004 18:16:07 -0700 (PDT) --0-290642195-1085706967=:95986 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sure it is. First off I really do believe that a "tumpline" is not used across the forehead (might be wrong about that but I don't think so). That is called a "burden strap" and I believe it was commonly used by un-horsed Indians, Eastern Indians, SW Indians, SE Indians, Voyageurs with very heavy loads in particular. Tumpline: A strap slung across the forehead or the chest to support a load carried on the back. tump (alteration of "mattump", of Southern New England Algonquian origin) American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language. There are a few sketches and paintings showing Indians wearing tumplines across their chests. One was sketched in 1734 by German-born artist, Philip Frederick George von Reck. It shows 3 Creek hunters, and two are wearing them with bags on their backs. These may be open woven twined bags, since the two usually were used together. The other is of four Indians in Louisiana painted by Alfred Boisseau, 1847, and shows a woman carrying a basket on her back with the tumpline across her forehead. Being active in the Fur Trade as early as the 1680's, Southeast tribes had horses. The Andalusian being one of them. I believe that any strap used to carry a load could be worn in any fashion the wearer saw fit. And may even be called what was proper or common depending on region or location. Hoppus is another term used. Not knowing which word was most common in your part of the country, is the reason why I used both. It turned out to be an interesting thread. Having covered most of the fields on Southeast tribes with an emphasis on the material cultures of the Seminoles and Creeks, I've decided to turn my search towards the Indian influence on the Mountain Men of Indian Territory. Thanks for the replies. Pare- Our oral traditions is our documentation. Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger --0-290642195-1085706967=:95986 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
 
Sure it is. First off I really do believe that a "tumpline" is not used across the forehead (might be wrong about that but I don't think so). That is called a "burden strap" and I believe it was commonly used by un-horsed Indians, Eastern Indians, SW Indians, SE Indians, Voyageurs with very heavy loads in particular.
 
Tumpline: A strap slung across the forehead or the chest to support a load carried on the back. tump (alteration of "mattump", of Southern New England Algonquian origin) American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language.
 
There are a few sketches and paintings showing Indians wearing tumplines across their chests. One was sketched in 1734 by German-born artist, Philip Frederick George von Reck. It shows 3 Creek hunters, and two are wearing them with bags on their backs. These may be open woven twined bags, since the two usually were used together. The other is of four Indians in Louisiana painted by Alfred Boisseau, 1847, and shows a woman carrying a basket on her back with the tumpline across her forehead.
 
Being active in the Fur Trade as early as the 1680's, Southeast tribes had horses. The Andalusian being one of them. 
 
I believe that any strap used to carry a load could be worn in any fashion the wearer saw fit. And may even be called what was proper or common depending on region or location. Hoppus is another term used.
 
Not knowing which word was most common in your part of the country, is the reason why I used both. It turned out to be an interesting thread.
 
Having covered most of the fields on Southeast tribes with an emphasis on the material cultures of the Seminoles and Creeks, I've decided to turn my search towards the Indian influence on the Mountain Men of Indian Territory.
 
Thanks for the replies.
 
Pare-
 


Our oral traditions is our documentation.

Do you Yahoo!?
Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger --0-290642195-1085706967=:95986-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trumpline & Cinches Date: 27 May 2004 23:55:50 EDT --part1_110.329e3202.2de81246_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Trumpline, Burden Strap same, same one is a name give to an item back east the other a term used by the western Indians for an item that was used very much the same. They may have be been made from different materials but both were used the same way to carry items ether across the shoulders or supported by the head. Or trading back and forth as one mode got tiresome. The Hidatsa use a burden strap that was rigged with two straps one for the shoulders and one for the head. It could be used with both straps supporting the load for heavy loads or used with one or the other supporting the load to give the other area a rest. The Hidatsa also made a burden basket or corn carrying basket made of raw hide that was framed with willow that was carried this same way. You can see Chris putting one of these Baskets to use at: http://members.tripod.com/womenofthefurtrade/id15.htm As for leather cinches they were used back then on some English or Eastern type Saddles and Indian saddles. Some saddles were just held on by only a surcingle that went over the saddle and around the horse and some just used the surcingle to hold blankets on over the saddle. Any one of these could have been used to make a burden strap from as well as a chinch of horse hair or a chinch latigo. For all these items were used back then on different saddles rigs. From my experience a leather chinch is a good way to gall a horse and it makes me wonder how there horses held up to them. As for the saddle bags Larpenuer talks about I have made a set and they work very well on a horse or to throw over your shoulder to carry stuff in. But when it comes to carrying bedding you will still need something like a trumpline or burden strap which very you want to call it. See ya down the trail Crazy Cyot --part1_110.329e3202.2de81246_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Trumpline, Bu= rden Strap same, same one is a name give to an item back east the other a te= rm used by the western Indians for an item that was used very much the same.
They may have be been made from different materials but both were used t= he same way to carry items ether across the shoulders or supported by the he= ad. Or trading back and forth as one mode got tiresome.
The Hidatsa use a burden strap that was rigged with two straps one for t= he shoulders and one for the head. It could be used with both straps support= ing the load for heavy loads or used with one or the other supporting the lo= ad to give the other area a rest.
The Hidatsa also made a burden basket or corn carrying basket made of r= aw hide that was framed with willow that was carried this same way.=20
You can see Chris putting one of these Baskets to use at: http://members.tripod.co= m/womenofthefurtrade/id15.htm

As for leather cinches they were used back then on some English or Easte= rn type Saddles and Indian saddles. Some saddles were just held on by only a= surcingle that went over the saddle and around the horse and some just used= the surcingle to hold blankets on over the saddle.
Any one of these could have been used to make a burden strap from as wel= l as a chinch of horse hair or a chinch latigo. For all these items were use= d back then on different saddles rigs.
From my experience a leather chinch is a good way to gall a horse and it= makes me wonder how there horses held up to them.

As for the saddle bags Larpenuer talks about I have made a set and they=20= work very well on a horse or to throw over your shoulder to carry stuff in.=20= But when it comes to carrying bedding you will still need something like a t= rumpline or burden strap which very you want to call it.
See ya down the trail
Crazy Cyot



--part1_110.329e3202.2de81246_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Glenn Darilek" Subject: MtMan-List: Tumpline defined Date: 28 May 2004 08:27:12 -0500 Websters 1828 dictionary did not have the word 'tumpline.' The 1913 Webster's Dictionary defined tumpline as: (n.) A strap placed across a man's forehead to assist him in carrying a pack on his back. I think I remember the word from a '50s Boy Scout Handbook for Boys, where it was used across the forehead. Modern dictionaries say the strap is worn across the forehead or chest, and one said over the shoulder. The dictionaries I checked all say the load is carried on the back. The origin of the word is from an Algonquin word traced back to 1796. Maybe the words 'pack strap' would be more applicable if the original meaning is not used. YMOS Glenn Darilek Iron Burner ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Glenn Darilek" Subject: MtMan-List: tumplines Date: 28 May 2004 08:37:21 -0500 Ain't the internet great? I searched and found a reference to the tumpline in the "Handbook for Boys." http://www.cascadeparaglidingclub.org/pages/tumpline.html The version shown on that web page is the exact one I had. I must have it somewhere now. Now that I think of it, I am sure I read that book more times than any other in my life, except parts of the Good Book. Glenn Darilek Iron Burner ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: trumpline Date: 28 May 2004 09:12:21 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C44493.E2184860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My terminology may be incorrect, I have always thought a trumpline = was the forehead thing. Capt'n said < He might know to choose that or =3D he might not.> Yer right, he might have known what to do or he might not. = Unfortunately, those who did not know what to do in emergency situations = did not live. Hence lack of information about their circumstances. Frank ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C44493.E2184860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    My terminology may be incorrect, I have always = thought a=20 trumpline was the forehead thing.
    Capt'n said  < He might know to choose = that or=20 =3D
he might not.>
    Yer right, he might have known what to do or he = might=20 not. Unfortunately, those who did not know what to do in emergency = situations=20 did not live. Hence lack of information about their circumstances.
Frank
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C44493.E2184860-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "don secondine" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Tumpline defined Date: 28 May 2004 15:41:55 +0000 In the primary sources here in the eastern frontier, tumplines were called hoppis which is anglicized from the Lenape(Delaware Indian) word Hoppees or burden strap. Since many of the Mountain men were Delawares, Shawnees and Iroquois Indians from the East, it stands to reason that they were doing a lot of things the same way they were accustomed to. BTW, am reading "The Adventures of Captain Bonneville" again after 30yrs. and am finding out some stuff that I had forgotten about. Don Secondine >From: "Glenn Darilek" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: >Subject: MtMan-List: Tumpline defined >Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 08:27:12 -0500 > >Websters 1828 dictionary did not have the word 'tumpline.' > >The 1913 Webster's Dictionary defined tumpline as: > >(n.) A strap placed across a man's forehead to assist him in carrying a >pack on his back. > >I think I remember the word from a '50s Boy Scout Handbook for Boys, >where it was used across the forehead. > >Modern dictionaries say the strap is worn across the forehead or chest, >and one said over the shoulder. The dictionaries I checked all say the >load is carried on the back. > >The origin of the word is from an Algonquin word traced back to 1796. > >Maybe the words 'pack strap' would be more applicable if the original >meaning is not used. > >YMOS >Glenn Darilek >Iron Burner > > > > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Watch LIVE baseball games on your computer with MLB.TV, included with MSN Premium! http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200439ave/direct/01/ ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "RP Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trumpline Date: 28 May 2004 08:57:56 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C44491.DE7D5940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well apparently from what Iron Burner is coming up with and what Crazy = Coyote shared my terminology is incorrect. I stand corrected. I think it of minor importance that in this age and when talking about = old ways of carrying a bundle/burden/pack, etc. using human power and by = a method clearly not a "pack frame" or Haversack/Knapsack that whether = we use the term "Tumpline" or "Burden Strap", there be some effort to = distinguish how it was or is being used. Structurally we are talking = about an accoutrement that is simple in form but can be used in more = than one way and with different results or effect on the body. I suspect that anyone who has survived long enough to find himself = needing to pick up the gear he can't live without and continue his = journey on foot will figure out some way of carrying it even if whatever = way he does is grossly inefficient compared to other ways that he might = not be aware of. That surely is not of such grave circumstance as to = cause eminent or eventual death. It's just going to be doing it "the = hard way". The point was that most if not all participants would have = had some experience either carrying burdens on foot or have seen it done = by others, whether they chose one way or the other really would depend = on the thinking and circumstances of an individual. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C44491.DE7D5940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well apparently from = what Iron=20 Burner is coming up with and what Crazy Coyote shared my terminology is=20 incorrect. I stand corrected.
 
I think it of minor = importance=20 that in this age and when talking about old ways of carrying a=20 bundle/burden/pack, etc. using human power and by a method clearly not a = "pack=20 frame" or Haversack/Knapsack that whether we use the term "Tumpline" or = "Burden=20 Strap", there be some effort to distinguish how it was or is being used. = Structurally we are talking about an accoutrement that is = simple in=20 form but can be used in more than one way and with different results or = effect=20 on the body.
 
<Yer right, he might have known what to do or he might not. = Unfortunately,=20 those who did not know what to do in emergency situations did not live. = Hence=20 lack of information about their circumstances.>
 
I suspect that anyone = who has=20 survived long enough to find himself needing to pick up the gear he = can't live=20 without and continue his journey on foot will figure out some way of = carrying it=20 even if whatever way he does is grossly inefficient compared to other = ways that=20 he might not be aware of. That surely is not of such grave circumstance = as to=20 cause eminent or eventual death. It's just going to be doing it "the = hard=20 way".  The point was that most if not all participants would have = had some=20 experience either carrying burdens on foot or have seen it done by = others,=20 whether they chose one way or the other really would depend on the = thinking and=20 circumstances of an individual.
 
YMOS
Capt. = Lahti'
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C44491.DE7D5940-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Pat Quilter Subject: RE: MtMan-List: tumpline Date: 28 May 2004 09:58:45 -0700 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C444D5.0991A800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The ongoing question about how burdens were man-packed is a classic example of why we do "living history". The journals document various occasions where burdens were packed on back (voyageur portages, expeditions losing their horses, non-horse travelers, etc), but these sources didn't burden the reader with presumably familiar detail about "how" they did it, any more than we would embellish a story about an aggravating flat tire with the mechanics of jacking, using a lug wrench, etc. Original sources also document "general" techniques for humping burdens. The two threads cross when someone goes into the field, using period materials and techniques, and TRIES the period methods to see what works (and doesn't work). And we still must make due allowance for hardiness and getting by somehow. Pat Quilter -----Original Message----- Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 8:58 AM Well apparently from what Iron Burner is coming up with and what Crazy Coyote shared my terminology is incorrect. I stand corrected. I think it of minor importance that in this age and when talking about old ways of carrying a bundle/burden/pack, etc. using human power and by a method clearly not a "pack frame" or Haversack/Knapsack that whether we use the term "Tumpline" or "Burden Strap", there be some effort to distinguish how it was or is being used. Structurally we are talking about an accoutrement that is simple in form but can be used in more than one way and with different results or effect on the body. I suspect that anyone who has survived long enough to find himself needing to pick up the gear he can't live without and continue his journey on foot will figure out some way of carrying it even if whatever way he does is grossly inefficient compared to other ways that he might not be aware of. That surely is not of such grave circumstance as to cause eminent or eventual death. It's just going to be doing it "the hard way". The point was that most if not all participants would have had some experience either carrying burdens on foot or have seen it done by others, whether they chose one way or the other really would depend on the thinking and circumstances of an individual. YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------_=_NextPart_001_01C444D5.0991A800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
The ongoing question about how burdens were man-packed is a classic example of why we do "living history". The journals document various occasions where burdens were packed on back (voyageur portages, expeditions losing their horses, non-horse travelers, etc), but these sources didn't burden the reader with presumably familiar detail about "how" they did it, any more than we would embellish a story about an aggravating flat tire with the mechanics of jacking, using a lug wrench, etc. Original sources also document "general" techniques for humping burdens. The two threads cross when someone goes into the field, using period materials and techniques, and TRIES the period methods to see what works (and doesn't work). And we still must make due allowance for hardiness and getting by somehow.
Pat Quilter
-----Original Message-----
From: RP Lahti [mailto:amm1719@charter.net]
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 8:58 AM
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trumpline

Well apparently from what Iron Burner is coming up with and what Crazy Coyote shared my terminology is incorrect. I stand corrected.
 
I think it of minor importance that in this age and when talking about old ways of carrying a bundle/burden/pack, etc. using human power and by a method clearly not a "pack frame" or Haversack/Knapsack that whether we use the term "Tumpline" or "Burden Strap", there be some effort to distinguish how it was or is being used. Structurally we are talking about an accoutrement that is simple in form but can be used in more than one way and with different results or effect on the body.
 
<Yer right, he might have known what to do or he might not. Unfortunately, those who did not know what to do in emergency situations did not live. Hence lack of information about their circumstances.>
 
I suspect that anyone who has survived long enough to find himself needing to pick up the gear he can't live without and continue his journey on foot will figure out some way of carrying it even if whatever way he does is grossly inefficient compared to other ways that he might not be aware of. That surely is not of such grave circumstance as to cause eminent or eventual death. It's just going to be doing it "the hard way".  The point was that most if not all participants would have had some experience either carrying burdens on foot or have seen it done by others, whether they chose one way or the other really would depend on the thinking and circumstances of an individual.
 
YMOS
Capt. Lahti'
 
 
------_=_NextPart_001_01C444D5.0991A800-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Teri Meyers" Subject: humphrey chordal position cult slam blueback massage bistable absorbent bullwhack northwestern screech basal blond embassy applause bonneville sixty buzz ajax monitory carrie respondent honeymoon born aspersion helmholtz continuum orient purr spud abel allocable inflexible gong Date: 28 May 2004 18:31:52 -0100 ----67829809390154732441 Content-Type: text/html; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

c1ick hear to rem0v3

sank yeomanry detonate truncate unbeknownst guise hershel harshen greene e= vident phoenix werner=20 clung huntley banjo carton arum strive dearth app= endix bostonian graduate acts gut flagstaff guile picky hackett position m= anometer induce pacifist advent quaternary anhydrous tirana sight elisabet= h gerundive adjoin geochronology tristan abetted cheap compute accept=20 z= oroaster elmira cookbook conducive creaky eta mammalian sulfa nutrient rot= arian consolation=20 riga doggone pumpkinseed parrish indisposition acetic= coccidiosis kolkhoz yves bloodshed adhesive critique illume pile antigen = dirichlet soot cocklebur they'd tilth august cayuga martinson dais newcome= r induct raillery congratulatory paula siva bugle freehold nereid bawdy=20= hollingsworth laryngeal oxide tabula brunswick electron abraham devotee n= yc pogo centrifugate toss nonagenarian birefringent baboon=20 caucasus sec= ondary decennial speech balletic coffman business contralateral familial p= rothonotary perspicuity thorough emily seclude elliptic tech mackintosh sp= ectrophotometer analgesic swab prowess kidnapping corrugate diety annals c= ourtroom abreact assam censorial godwit univac vex earthmove boolean fbi a= head breakwater accent minot neurasthenic=20, algiers beneficial maritime aerial criterion depose odin peachtree caiman = corinthian fredrickson franco infantile bibliography valkyrie eke frambesi= a cog scandium attain continuum gallonage contingent shapiro announce sieg= fried populism apogee bingham fiefdom clinch down ymca=20 conakry adelaide= easternmost communal wagging clarence bygone aquinas gibbet cosh tart gro= ut shipbuilding slice sisyphean stupid fe assiduous art audacity age manga= nese megaton peep immutable frenchmen alfred standpoint blum disgustful mo= nty=20 texaco safety scam dido egghead confide moonlight bates aplomb dolp= hin stark bony=20 ere keynesian mcconnell repelling sped riverbank subtly = arrogant magnolia diamagnetic catechism adultery antares lawbreaking might= n't anglican wonderland alberta pasha cotillion tribesmen mountainside tra= gicomic hummock spay incur collide bernard weave=20 whitcomb cedar augusti= ne tangent crochet ballyhoo featherbedding compost dutchman solution quadr= ant member braniff employee=20. ----67829809390154732441-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Allen Hall" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cinches Date: 27 May 2004 19:15:00 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C4441E.E8463780 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jerry, If you live in SLC, and like Mountain Man doin's on a horse, get ahold = of me off-line. We can hook you up with some like-minded guys. Allen in Fort Hall Country allenhall@srv.net ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jerry Bell=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 1:13 PM Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Cinches I live in Salt Lake City. I just called the Museum. They are doing = some research for me and will call me back. When I learn something, I = will let you know. Jerry -----Original Message----- From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com = [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Cheyenne Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 12:35 PM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Cinches Jerry If I gett a chance I will do some research through my local college = (USU) and see if I can come up with something. I am in Utah so I might = be able to get some info from the Museum that Chance refers to. Wynn --------- Original Message -------- From: hist_text@lists.xmission.com To: "hist_text@lists.xmission.com" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Cinches Date: 27/05/04 13:14 I have been doing a lot of studying of saddles. I would love a copy = of the pages you have of this paper. How would I be able to get a = complete copy? Jerry -----Original Message----- From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com = [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of CHANCE TIFFIE Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 6:38 AM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cinches Wynn, The paper entitled"Description of saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition," = was written by Ann Nelson, Utah Museum of Natural History, University of = Utah, Salt Lake city, Utah 84112. The Renwick exhibition was a collection of saddles from the Department = of Anthropology, private owners, and the National Museum of History and = Technology. As far as the research, these saddles were thoroughly examined by the, = Anthropology Conservation Laboratory, and the Smithsonian Conservation = Analytical Laboratory. Although the paper is entitled as mentioned, the upper right hand = corner of each page says"Smithsonian Studies in History and Technology." = Unfortunately the paper I have is only a partial copy of the whole, = omitting the native saddles, and others of later manufacture. If you = would like a copy of the pages that I have, I will be glad to send them = to you. ----- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger ________________________________________________ Message sent using pcu.net webmail 2.7.2 ---------------------- hist_text list info: = http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html=20 ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C4441E.E8463780 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jerry,
 
If you live in SLC, and like Mountain = Man doin's on=20 a horse, get ahold of me off-line.  We can hook you up with some=20 like-minded guys.
 
Allen in Fort Hall Country
allenhall@srv.net
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Jerry=20 Bell
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 = 1:13=20 PM
Subject: RE: MtMan-List: = Cinches

I live in=20 Salt Lake=20 City.  I = just called=20 the Museum.  They are doing some research for me and will call me = back.  When I learn something, I will let you = know.

 

Jerry

 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: = owner-hist_text@lists.= xmission.com=20 [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of = Cheyenne
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 = 12:35=20 PM
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=
Subject: RE: MtMan-List:=20 Cinches

 

Jerry

If I=20 gett a chance I will do some research through my local college = (USU) and=20 see if I can come up with something.  I am in Utah so I might be = able to=20 get some info from the Museum that Chance refers=20 to.

Wynn

---------=20 Original Message --------
From: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
To: = "hist_text@lists.xmission.com"=20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Subject: RE: MtMan-List:=20 Cinches
Date: 27/05/04 13:14

I have=20 been doing a lot of studying of saddles.  I would love a copy of = the=20 pages you have of this paper.  How would I be able to get a = complete=20 copy?

 

Jerry

 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From:=20 owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com = [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]=20 On Behalf Of CHANCE=20 TIFFIE
Sent: = Thursday, May=20 27, 2004 6:38 AM
To:=20 hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:=20 Cinches

 

Wynn,

The paper entitled"Description of saddlery = in the=20 Renwick Exhibition," was written by Ann Nelson, Utah Museum of Natural = History, University of Utah, Salt Lake city, Utah = 84112.

The Renwick exhibition was a collection of = saddles=20 from the Department of Anthropology, private owners, and the National = Museum=20 of History and Technology.

As far as the research, these saddles were = thoroughly=20 examined by the, Anthropology Conservation Laboratory, and the = Smithsonian=20 Conservation Analytical Laboratory.

Although the paper is entitled as mentioned, = the upper=20 right hand corner of each page says"Smithsonian Studies in History and = Technology."  Unfortunately the paper I have is only a partial = copy of=20 the whole,  omitting the native saddles, and others of later = manufacture.=20 If you would like a copy of the pages that I have, I will be glad to = send them=20 to you.

 

Do you = Yahoo!?
Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo!=20 Messenger



________________________________________________
Message= =20 sent using pcu.net webmail 2.7.2
---------------------- hist_text = list=20 info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html=20

------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C4441E.E8463780-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: trumpline Date: 28 May 2004 16:42:04 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00BA_01C444D2.B4E3DEB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable < Frank ------=_NextPart_000_00BA_01C444D2.B4E3DEB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
        <<But
when it comes = to=20 carrying bedding you will still need something like a trumpline
or = burden=20 strap which very you want to call it.
    CC
    Either way, I would still call it a headache.=20 <G>
Frank
------=_NextPart_000_00BA_01C444D2.B4E3DEB0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tumpline defined Date: 28 May 2004 16:57:41 -0600 (MDT) > Maybe the words 'pack strap' would be more applicable if the original > meaning is not used. > YMOS > Glenn Darilek > Iron Burner It's a tumpline not pack strap. Maybe I read that wrong, but why change terms. I've been reading about this era for 20+ years and have never even heard other terms for it like "burden strap" or "hoppis"? I have never heard of a tumpline being worn across the chest either. The late great outdoor writer Calvin Rustrum, who forgot more about tumplines then all on the list compined, talks a lot about tumplines. He once met a Cree Indian on a portage trail that was tumplining a cast iron stove on his back and a five gallon jerry can of kerosene in each arm. Rutsrum said the Indian never even laid down his load as they talk briefly on the trail. These Indian are of course like sherpas that have spent generations packing incredible loads. I joked right off about Pasquinel using a tumpline in Centennial but at least he was wearing it right, over his forehead. bb ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "don secondine" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tumpline defined Date: 29 May 2004 04:11:29 +0000 Hoppis is used repeatedly in the 18th and early 19thc. primary sources. Not a rare or a new term at all. Don >From: beaverboy@sofast.net >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tumpline defined >Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 16:57:41 -0600 (MDT) > > > Maybe the words 'pack strap' would be more applicable if the original > > meaning is not used. > > YMOS > > Glenn Darilek > > Iron Burner > > It's a tumpline not pack strap. Maybe I read that wrong, but why change >terms. I've been reading about this era for 20+ years and have never >even heard other terms for it like "burden strap" or "hoppis"? I have >never heard of a tumpline being worn across the chest either. > The late great outdoor writer Calvin Rustrum, who forgot more about >tumplines then all on the list compined, talks a lot about tumplines. He >once met a Cree Indian on a portage trail that was tumplining a cast >iron stove on his back and a five gallon jerry can of kerosene in each >arm. Rutsrum said the Indian never even laid down his load as they talk >briefly on the trail. These Indian are of course like sherpas that have >spent generations packing incredible loads. > I joked right off about Pasquinel using a tumpline in Centennial but at >least he was wearing it right, over his forehead. > bb > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Learn to simplify your finances and your life in Streamline Your Life from MSN Money. http://special.msn.com/money/0405streamline.armx ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tumpline defined Date: 29 May 2004 01:19:38 EDT --part1_8a.c1cbe86.2de9776a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Beaver Boy said: I've been reading about this era for 20+ years and have never even heard other terms for it like "burden strap" or "hoppis"? I have never heard of a tumpline being worn across the chest either. Well, Beaver Boy all I can say to that is, I guess ya haven't been readin the right stuff and your only about ten years behind some of us on readin. (VBG) Hope to see ya at Nationals Crazy Cyot --part1_8a.c1cbe86.2de9776a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Beaver Boy
said:
I've been reading about this era for 20+ years and have never
even heard other terms for it like "burden strap" or "hoppis"?  I h= ave
never heard of a tumpline being worn across the chest either.
 
Well, Beaver Boy all I can say to that is, I guess ya haven't been readi= n the right stuff and your only about ten years behind some of us on readin.= (VBG)
Hope to see ya at Nationals
Crazy Cyot

--part1_8a.c1cbe86.2de9776a_boundary-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tumpline defined Date: 29 May 2004 00:20:41 -0600 (MDT) your only about ten years behind some of us on readin. > (VBG) > Hope to see ya at Nationals > Crazy Cyot I guess I'm just a slow reader. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TrapRJoe@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Just looking Date: 29 May 2004 13:31:16 EDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Getting ready to spend a few months around Farmington, NM. Any buckskinners around there I might buy a cup of coffee? Ridge Pole Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Getting ready to spend a few months around Farmington, NM.  Any bu= ckskinners around there I might buy a cup of coffee?
 
              &n= bsp;               &n= bsp;               &n= bsp;               &n= bsp;             Ridge Pole ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: BEWARE off topic Date: 30 May 2004 17:59:33 -0500 Ho the list, I have a pair of virtually new......bought last Monday with fewer than 8 hours of use .....Wolverine ST steel toe, EH electrical hazard 8 inch work boots, size 14 Medium (essentially D width), that I cannot wear. They have an ever so slightly pointed toe design that bears on my big toes in a tearfully painful manner. If you have bunions or big corns on you Great Toes these ain't for you. The boot dealer is not cooperating worth a damn and I will contact Wolverine Tuesday for help but I will pass these on to anybody who needs them for less than I paid to rid myself of the nuisance.. Click here and scroll down to see them: http://www.bootplace.com/steeltoe.html BE SURE TO CONTACT ME OFF LIST AT THE EMAIL ADDRESS SHOWN BELOW Lanney Ratcliff lanneyratcliff@charter.net ______________________________________________________________ Aux Aliments du Pays ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: BEWARE off topic Date: 30 May 2004 20:29:47 -0700 Lanney, If you'll throw in the paddles, I'll consider it........ Yfab, Randy ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: BEWARE off topic Date: 30 May 2004 23:20:40 -0500 Har, Har. yfab Sasquatch ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2004 10:29 PM > Lanney, If you'll throw in the paddles, I'll consider it........ > Yfab, Randy > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Angela Gottfred" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tumpline defined Date: 31 May 2004 06:58:26 -0600 And to further add to the variety of terms used, folks interested in = voyageurs and the Canadian fur trade c. 1774-1821 are more likely to see the term = "portage strap". Your very humble & most obedient servant, Angela Gottfred ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jerry Bell" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cinches Date: 31 May 2004 20:33:11 -0600 I am very interested in Mountain Man doin's on a horse. I have been a member of the ALRA for about 10 years and have done treks on foot with them. My persona has been a long hunter in the 1770 era. However, lately I came to the conclusion that it was wierd that people out west immulate eastern US history and people in the East immulate Western history. I decided that I wanted to do things related to the area where I live, but in order to remain a member of the ALRA, I could not go any later that 1812. Therefore, I have been struggling. In the meantime, I aquired a horse about 3 years ago so I have been doing some horse trekking on my own. I have been unable to hook up with anyone. The saddle I have been using is a replica of a Hussan saddle that could have been used in the War of 1812 or earlier. It does not look like most of the mountain men type saddles I've seen, but it seems to fit the period well. From the message you just left me, it sounds like you may live in the Pocatello area. In the course of business, I get up there about every 6-8 weeks. Let me know how I can contact you directly if you would. Thank you for your message. Sincerely, Jerry ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Jerry, > >If you live in SLC, and like Mountain Man doin's on a horse, get ahold of me off-line. We can hook you up with some like-minded guys. > >Allen in Fort Hall Country >allenhall@srv.net > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jerry Bell > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 1:13 PM > Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Cinches > > > I live in Salt Lake City. I just called the Museum. They are doing some research for me and will call me back. When I learn something, I will let you know. > > > > Jerry > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Cheyenne > Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 12:35 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Cinches > > > > Jerry > > If I gett a chance I will do some research through my local college (USU) and see if I can come up with something. I am in Utah so I might be able to get some info from the Museum that Chance refers to. > > Wynn > > --------- Original Message -------- > From: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > To: "hist_text@lists.xmission.com" > Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Cinches > Date: 27/05/04 13:14 > > I have been doing a lot of studying of saddles. I would love a copy of the pages you have of this paper. How would I be able to get a complete copy? > > > > Jerry > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of CHANCE TIFFIE > Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2004 6:38 AM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cinches > > > > Wynn, > > The paper entitled"Description of saddlery in the Renwick Exhibition," was written by Ann Nelson, Utah Museum of Natural History, University of Utah, Salt Lake city, Utah 84112. > > The Renwick exhibition was a collection of saddles from the Department of Anthropology, private owners, and the National Museum of History and Technology. > > As far as the research, these saddles were thoroughly examined by the, Anthropology Conservation Laboratory, and the Smithsonian Conservation Analytical Laboratory. > > Although the paper is entitled as mentioned, the upper right hand corner of each page says"Smithsonian Studies in History and Technology." Unfortunately the paper I have is only a partial copy of the whole, omitting the native saddles, and others of later manufacture. If you would like a copy of the pages that I have, I will be glad to send them to you. > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Do you Yahoo!? > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger > > > > ________________________________________________ > Message sent using pcu.net webmail 2.7.2 > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 NaugaMok@aol.com=20
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 6:20 = PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: sons = of a=20 trackless forest

In a message dated 5/17/2004 10:54:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, = amm1719@charter.net = writes:
Reactive targets and targets = that are=20 easily scored like gongs, popup cutouts, etc. Unless your just = looking to=20 have a trail walk, the most fun is some sort of team event with a = scenario=20 and targets that are not readily visible until the last possible = moment.=20