I live in Cache Valley so we may play = in similar=20 territory. I am a horse guy but I still spend plenty of time on = the ground=20 in mocs and I agree with my friend Tom. The place that my 8 year = old son=20 and I wince most often are asphalt and gravel roads these generally = represent=20 the most unforgiving ground to walk on in soft soles. Let me say = that if=20 you start mixing with this crowd you will see some guys in a single = layer moc=20 and on up from there. I aint knocking anybody who does otherwise = but I=20 admire a thin poorly made pair of mocs you have made yourself more = than the=20 finest pair of fancy store boughts. If you health and feet can = take it do=20 it.

On padding: a lot of guys make a pair = of mocs and=20 sew on a second layer to the bottom. I find it less work and = more=20 adjustable to make several pair and tuck them inside each other as = needed. =20 I also am a fan of wool as in blanket booties, socks or scraps in the = bottom of=20 the moc to soften the ground rather than just layers of leather. =20 Especially in snow I think you don't really need heavy leather but = instead=20 insulation inside leather that will dry out over an evening=20 fire.

On style: Once again I am not = knocking=20 anybody who does otherwise so don't everybody start defending your = postions but=20 let me present the idea that if you are making new mocs why not do them = in the=20 styles that are most documentable to your period? I have made side = seams=20 out of chap leather (thats off a cow). I have seen some thick = pucker toes=20 in elk and other leathers (Right Rick Williams?).

Kieth those AMM guys in the Poison = River Party=20 where you live are ornery, opinionated, rothesome, vermin. = You would=20 be better off to stay away from them, but if you did decide against your = better=20 judgement to get to know them they are a wealth of knowledge. = Tom has=20 a great pucker toe pattern. Crazy and Allen are side seam=20 fans. There are some real good camps coming up in the next = couple of=20 months that you could get some exellant help if you wanted = it. They=20 might even make good customers and be asking you for tanning = advise. =20

One of the verminous PRP

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 = 9:39=20 AM

Subject: MtMan-List: mocs & = amm

thanks for all the info on the mocs = seems like I=20 now have a good reason for trekking more so I can toughen up my feet = but I=20 think I will try the double sole center seam and shoe packs for a bit = I seem=20 to have plenty of skins around the throw tannery but I looks like I = have to=20 brain tan up some moose skins any one that once some skins let me know = you're=20 snail mail address and I will send you a price list I have heard some = great=20 things about the amm but have been unable to see if I could join them = I have=20 gotten a few of their publications up to fort Bridger form bill = Cunningham I=20 thank you again for putting up with my greenhorn questions and hope it = is not=20 much trouble this will be my first deer and elk hunt with my smoke = pole so I=20 want to do it as period as possible but like emmet heath says = don't wait=20 until you got it all or you will never start your pilgrims journey = emmet helps=20 allot of greenhorns in are blackpowder club he wont say but he had = something=20 to do with the start of fort Bridger thanks=20 again

well unfortunately I will not be able = to come up to=20 for B in Ogden on that weekend our local muzzleloader club will be = having a=20 shoot that weekend any one that wants to attend feel welcome it is in = eureka=20 city park the 13-15 I am vice pres of the t-n-t club so I have got to be = their=20 if you come look me up

Verminous.........I've been called lots = of things,=20 but don't recall that. Heck, we get rid of them vermin creatures = when we=20 take our yearly bath.........let's see, did I get that bath this year=20 yet?

Allen from Fort Hall = Country

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 = 11:32=20 AM

Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mocs = &=20 amm

I live in Cache Valley so we may play = in similar=20 territory. I am a horse guy but I still spend plenty of time on = the=20 ground in mocs and I agree with my friend Tom. The place that my = 8 year=20 old son and I wince most often are asphalt and gravel roads these = generally=20 represent the most unforgiving ground to walk on in soft soles. = Let me=20 say that if you start mixing with this crowd you will see some guys in = a=20 single layer moc and on up from there. I aint knocking anybody = who does=20 otherwise but I admire a thin poorly made pair of mocs you have = made=20 yourself more than the finest pair of fancy store boughts. If = you health=20 and feet can take it do it.

On padding: a lot of guys make a pair = of mocs and=20 sew on a second layer to the bottom. I find it less work = and more=20 adjustable to make several pair and tuck them inside each other as=20 needed. I also am a fan of wool as in blanket booties, socks or = scraps=20 in the bottom of the moc to soften the ground rather than just layers = of=20 leather. Especially in snow I think you don't really need heavy = leather=20 but instead insulation inside leather that will dry out over an = evening=20 fire.

On style: Once again I am not = knocking=20 anybody who does otherwise so don't everybody start defending your = postions=20 but let me present the idea that if you are making new mocs why not do = them in=20 the styles that are most documentable to your period? I have = made side=20 seams out of chap leather (thats off a cow). I have seen some = thick=20 pucker toes in elk and other leathers (Right Rick = Williams?).

Kieth those AMM guys in the Poison = River Party=20 where you live are ornery, opinionated, rothesome, vermin. = You=20 would be better off to stay away from them, but if you did decide = against your=20 better judgement to get to know them they are a wealth of=20 knowledge. Tom has a great pucker toe pattern. Crazy and = Allen are=20 side seam fans. There are some real good camps coming up in = the=20 next couple of months that you could get some exellant help if = you wanted=20 it. They might even make good customers and be asking you for = tanning=20 advise.

One of the verminous PRP

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 = 9:39=20 AM

Subject: MtMan-List: mocs = &=20 amm

thanks for all the info on the mocs = seems like=20 I now have a good reason for trekking more so I can toughen up my = feet but I=20 think I will try the double sole center seam and shoe packs for a = bit I seem=20 to have plenty of skins around the throw tannery but I looks like I = have to=20 brain tan up some moose skins any one that once some skins let me = know=20 you're snail mail address and I will send you a price list I have = heard some=20 great things about the amm but have been unable to see if I could = join them=20 I have gotten a few of their publications up to fort Bridger form = bill=20 Cunningham I thank you again for putting up with my greenhorn = questions and=20 hope it is not much trouble this will be my first deer and elk hunt = with my=20 smoke pole so I want to do it as period as possible but like = emmet=20 heath says don't wait until you got it all or you will never start = your=20 pilgrims journey emmet helps allot of greenhorns in are blackpowder = club he=20 wont say but he had something to do with the start of fort Bridger = thanks=20 again

Shoot if you want brain tan you can = also give me a=20 holler prices start at 10.00 dollars a safe

It looks like my spell check changed = sqf (square=20 foot) to safe that is what happened their. As for what I get out of my = brain tan=20 It really depends on the skin and quality of the skin most deer skins = are an=20 average of 10 sqf and sell for 11.00

that is an average grade skin not the = worst but not=20 the best it might be off shaped or have a hole or two the 10.00 a sqf = are what I=20 call crafter skins great for bags and such. but my brain tan is the real = deal=20 real brains real wood smoke and real great (shameless advertising) any = way I=20 will have some up to Bridger I just walk around with a packbasket full = of skins=20 . I would also like to know of any other amm events that I could attend = I would=20 like to know of them to see if it is something I want to=20 do

Hi, folks. I was looking at a trade list I have from A.P.Chouteau, and of the ones on the AMM archives, and can't figure out some of the words that were used. Could any of you help me on this?

Here's a few of them:

Thanks for your time.

Our oral traditions is our documentation.

Those are interesting = words,=20 indeed. The Webster's 1828 Dictionary has no mention of any = of them=20 nor does a more modern Merriam-Webster collegiate dictionary. =

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2004 = 4:51=20 PM

Subject: MtMan-List: Trade = lists=20 definitions.

Hi, folks. I was looking at a trade list I have from=20 A.P.Chouteau, and of the ones on the AMM archives, and can't = figure out=20 some of the words that were used. Could any of you help me on = this?

Here's a few of them:

Thanks for your time.

Our oral traditions is = our=20 documentation.=20

Perhaps if you look in the = context of the=20 lists they were included in, it may give a clue... i.e. foodstuffs, = cloth, =20 &ct....

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2004 = 6:43=20 PM

Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trade = lists=20 definitions.

Those are interesting = words,=20 indeed. The Webster's 1828 Dictionary has no mention of = any of=20 them nor does a more modern Merriam-Webster collegiate = dictionary. =20

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, August 14, = 2004 4:51=20 PM

Subject: MtMan-List: Trade = lists=20 definitions.

Here's a few of them:

Thanks for your time.

Our oral traditions = is our=20 documentation.=20

Kept missing you at college. How = bout sending=20 12 copies of the new book first chance.

Thunder Ridge Muzzleloading
PO 4415
Woodland Park, Co. = 80866
719=20 687 6510
www.thunder-ridge-muz= zleloading.com

Sure sorry folks. Thought I'd = private=20 messaged this to Mike.

Kept missing you at college. = How bout=20 sending 12 copies of the

Thanks for a well-written and informative=20 post.

I can not speak for the state laws where = these folks=20 do business, but were they to be operating in Texas and many other = states, or if=20 they were to sell imitation brain tan as the real thing in Texas (and = other=20 states) by mail, they have committed fraud and would be in violation, as = just=20 one example, of what we refer to as the Deceptive Trade Practices = Act (a=20 act that has potentially draconian penalties for those = who misrepresent the=20 nature of what they are selling). Bottom line is that the practice = is=20 reprehensible and I hope your comments will engender a change in their=20 practices.

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, August 16, 2004 = 6:04=20 PM

Subject: MtMan-List: Fraudulent = Brain=20 Tan

I just learned that AMM Pilgrim Dacotah = Rooster (Mark=20 Roster) will be setting up his trade tent at the Bridger=20 Rendezvous.

What caught my special attention is that he = will be=20 offering the book published by our deceased Brother, Rick Fisher, = The Rascal=20 and the Soothsayer's Prophecy. This is as fine a piece of = fiction=20 (with a lot of Rick's family and period correct history woven in the = tale) as=20 you are likely to read. It has been (and continues to be) = submitted=20 for consideration to a number of writing and historical = societies for=20 possible writing awards. If you like an interesting tale, be = sure to=20 see Rooster while at Bridger.

I do not know if Rooster will also have any = of the=20 CD's or tapes Rick released just before his unexpected passing, but = if so,=20 take a listen. The title for these poems and stories is Tales = of the=20 Trail, and they are first quality. Just listening to the = timber of=20 Rick's voice brings him back to the campfire as he weaves his tales with = humor,=20 a love of history, and his respect for all things related to the Fur=20 Trade.

From another list I = belong to,=20 this book was reccomended. Available from the not-so-authentic=20 Amazon.com.

= =20 <<Taverns and Drinking in = Early America=20 by Sharon V. Salinger
and printed by Johns Hopkins Press. ISBN=20 0-8018-6878-5.>>

matt is a expert on brain tan in fact = the book and=20 dvd he has on the subject are the best out their it is the way I lernt = how as=20 far as availably give me a call and let me know what brain tan you want = and what=20 the project is and I can help out keep in mind brain tan is not the only = period=20 correct leather and I also have some cheaper chemical tanned leather = give me a=20 call at 801-465-2969 Mitchell's fur ask for Keith Mitchell and I can = have some=20 hides ready for Bridger if you want to look me up their my hair on skins = are not=20 brain tan but are washable and feel great

Hello the very quiet lists.

In reading from Rufas Sage pg 92 in the form I have it Rufas = describes some=20 roots. Can anyone help me with what plants these represent? I have = extended the=20 quote beyond the required amount in the thought that others may find the = use of=20 the edible plants interesting.

Wynn Ormond

The valley gave abundant indication of wild fruit at the proper = season, such=20 as

plums, cherries, currants, goose and buffalo berries, = (shepherdia argentea.) = . . . .,=20 while others were busily employed in digging for roots to appease the = gnawing of=20 appetite, which began to make itself most sensibly felt by all.

About sundown both parties came in, =97the hunters quite dispirited, = not=20 having

seen any thing in the shape of elk or other game, =97but the root = diggers=20 had

been more lucky and brought with them a small supply of nutritious=20 aliments,

which were divided equally among the company, and, through scarcely a = half

dozen mouthfuls were apportioned to each, they answered, to some = extent,=20 the

designed object.

These roots consisted of two varieties, viz: pomme blanc, and = commote.

The pomme blanc, or white apple, is a native of the prairies and = mountains, oval

shaped and about three and a half inches in circumference. It is = encased in a=20 thin

fibrous tegument, which, when removed, exposes an interior of white = pulpy

substance, much like a turnip in taste. It generally grows at a depth = of=20 three or

four inches, in the soil of hill-sides and plateaux, where is found a = reddish=20 clay

loam abundant in fragmentary rocks and gravel. The stalk attains a = height=20 of

about three inches, and in general description is quite like a well = known=20 article,

common to the States, called "sheep-sorrel." At the proper season it = bears=20 a

handsome white blossom, that would suffer no disparagement when = placed in

juxtaposition with many of the choicer specimens of our gardens.

The commote31 is a root much like the common = radish in=20 size and shape, while a

brownish skin envelopes a substance of milky whiteness, soft and = nutritious,=20 and

of an agreeable taste. It is found most abundant in river bottoms, = and=20 requires a

rich alluvial soil, well mixed with sedimentary deposites and = vegetable=20 matter. It

generally penetrates to a depth of about four inches. Its leaves = resemble=20 those of

the carrot in shape and color, and seldom grow to exceed two inches = from=20 the

ground, while a stalk equally unpretending, bears a blueish blossom, = not=20 without

some just claim to beauty.

The pomme blanc and commote = are equally good whether boiled or raw and are

uniformly harmless, even with those unaccustomed to their use as an = article=20 of

food.

Making way with our scanty supply, a fire was struck and a kettle of = tea=20 prepared

from wild cherry bark, which proved quite wholesome.

This, as I ascertained, is a drink quite common among mountaineers = and=20 Indians

in the spring season, and is used for purifying the blood and = reducing it=20 to

suitable consistency for the temperature of summer. As the successful = performer

of the task assigned, I most cordially attest to its virtues, and = recommend=20 it as

the most innocent and effective medicine, if medicine it may be = called, that=20 can

be employed for a result so necessary to general=20 health.

Could = someone in the=20 general Collegeville, PA. area give me some good 'starter' and just all = around=20 great Rendezvous? The reason is that I have a 12 year = old customer in=20 that town who is really interested in the 'buckskinning' culture = and his=20 parents have never heard of Rendezvous! Considering his excitement with = getting=20 into the woods I was shocked when his mother emailed me tonight and = asked me=20 what Rondezvous was. Any information/dates and directions that I = can pass=20 on to him and his parents would be greatly appreciated.=20 Thanks, John

The Stitchin' Scotsman
100% = Handsewn=20 Elkhide garments
and moccasins
Manu Forti
www.stitchinscotsman.com

Hi John, As you know I'm in CA., but I did attend the GNARendezvous last April. It was a great event with lots (over 100) traders. They have a 'brother event' further East (closer to Collegeville). Send this info to your friend. I hope to go back to PA next spring , and attend the GNAR again while there. My daughter , and her family, is in the Harrisburg area. I met a lot of very freindly folks there, who treated me like a long lost brother. I highly recommend this rdvs. , as a commercial type rdvs.. The rdvs. is west of Gettysburg, which I also visited when in the area. Check out their web site for info.. Yfab, Randy

----- Original Message -----

From: John McKee

Sent: 8/24/2004 5:03:40 PM

Subject: MtMan-List: need some information

Could someone in the general Collegeville, PA. area give me some good 'starter' and just all around great Rendezvous? The reason is that I have a 12 year old customer in that town who is really interested in the 'buckskinning' culture and his parents have never heard of Rendezvous! Considering his excitement with getting into the woods I was shocked when his mother emailed me tonight and asked me what Rondezvous was. Any information/dates and directions that I can pass on to him and his parents would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, John

The Stitchin' Scotsman
100% Handsewn Elkhide garments
and moccasins
Manu Forti
www.stitchinscotsman.com

There is also the Eastern Primitive Rendezvous = in Dodridge=20 County, WV, coming up in Sept-Oct. The URL for it is www.nmlra.org, and click on = RENDEZVOUS. I'll=20 look in Smoke and Fire, and see what is coming up in your area and email = you=20 later.

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 = 8:46=20 PM

Subject: RE: MtMan-List: need = some=20 information

Hi John, As you know I'm in CA., but I did = attend the=20 GNARendezvous last April. It was a great event with lots (over = 100)=20 traders. They have a 'brother event' further East (closer to=20 Collegeville). Send this info to your friend. I hope to go = back to=20 PA next spring , and attend the GNAR again while there. My = daughter ,=20 and her family, is in the Harrisburg area. I met a lot of very = freindly=20 folks there, who treated me like a long lost brother. I highly = recommend=20 this rdvs. , as a commercial type rdvs.. The rdvs. is west of=20 Gettysburg, which I also visited when in the area. Check out = their web=20 site for info.. Yfab, Randy

http://www.gnarendezvous.org/<= /DIV>

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 John McKee

To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=

Sent: 8/24/2004 5:03:40 PM =

Subject: MtMan-List: need = some=20 information

Could = someone in=20 the general Collegeville, PA. area give me some good 'starter' and = just all=20 around great Rendezvous? The reason is that I have a 12 year=20 old customer in that town who is really interested in = the=20 'buckskinning' culture and his parents have never heard of = Rendezvous!=20 Considering his excitement with getting into the woods I was shocked = when=20 his mother emailed me tonight and asked me what Rondezvous was.=20 Any information/dates and directions that I can pass on to him = and his=20 parents would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, =20 John

The Stitchin' = Scotsman
100%=20 Handsewn Elkhide garments
and moccasins
Manu Forti
www.stitchinscotsman.com

In a message dated 8/25/2004 7:21:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time, admiller= @citynet.net writes:

----- Original Message -----

F= rom: John McKee

To: hist_text@lists.x= mission.com

Sent: 8/24/2004 5:03:40 PM

Subject: MtMan-List: need some inform= ation

Good evening all.

Could someone i= n the general Collegeville, PA. area give me some good 'starter' and just al= l around great Rendezvous? The reason is that I have a 12 year old = ;customer in that town who is really interested in the 'buckskinning'= culture and his parents have never heard of Rendezvous! Considering his exc= itement with getting into the woods I was shocked when his mother emailed me= tonight and asked me what Rondezvous was. Any information/dates and di= rections that I can pass on to him and his parents would be greatly apprecia= ted. Thanks, John

The Stitchin' Scotsman
100% Han= dsewn Elkhide garments
and moccasins
Manu Forti
http://ww= w.stitchinscotsman.com/

There is a Blackpowder shoot and camp at the Whispering Pines club in N= orth Central Pa in the early summer. Great shoot ok camp with modern i= ntruding on the primative camps. Heading north my club, The Little Bea= rds Club has a rendezvous in June in the Genesee Valley of NY just out side=20= of Geneseo. The Keuka Lake Renegades have one over in Keuka NY fathers= day weekend every year. And there is the Moses Van Campen club rendezv= ous down in Nunda NY. All of these are over for this year but will be=20= listed in Smoke and Fire next spring. I would tell you client to subsc= ribe to Smoke and Fire and let his parents read the articles and he will fin= d more to do in Pa and NY within driving distance than he has free weekends,= I know we do.

Y.M.O.S.

C. T. Oakes
Pres., The Little Beards Club
Brants Volu= nteers/Crogans Co.
Lottridge Co./Doxstaders Co.

---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John McKee" Subject: MtMan-List: thanks Date: 25 Aug 2004 15:15:23 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C48AB6.57D4C7A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks gentlemen, I forwarded the websites and information to his = mother. This 12 year old is very excited about our 'hobby' and I hope = his parents catch his fever. That, to me, is what it's all about....get = just one person excited and it spreads!! John The Stitchin' Scotsman 100% Handsewn Elkhide garments and moccasins Manu Forti www.stitchinscotsman.com ------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C48AB6.57D4C7A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks gentlemen, I forwarded = the websites=20 and information to his mother. This 12 year old is very excited about = our=20 'hobby' and I hope his parents catch his fever. That, to me, is what = it's all=20 about....get just one person excited and it spreads!!

John

The Stitchin' Scotsman
100% = Handsewn=20 Elkhide garments
and moccasins
Manu Forti
www.stitchinscotsman.com

------=_NextPart_000_0043_01C48AB6.57D4C7A0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Thom Frazier" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: need some information Date: 27 Aug 2004 08:33:29 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C48C10.87DEAFA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John, I highly recommend the Lancaster County Longrifles event which will be April 27 - May 1, 2005 at Muddy Run Park, Holtwood, PA. Directions and all kinds of inf available on their webpage. http://www.threadtheneedle.net/lanc/ -----Original Message----- From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of John McKee Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 7:04 PM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: MtMan-List: need some information Good evening all. Could someone in the general Collegeville, PA. area give me some good 'starter' and just all around great Rendezvous? The reason is that I have a 12 year old customer in that town who is really interested in the 'buckskinning' culture and his parents have never heard of Rendezvous! Considering his excitement with getting into the woods I was shocked when his mother emailed me tonight and asked me what Rondezvous was. Any information/dates and directions that I can pass on to him and his parents would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, John The Stitchin' Scotsman 100% Handsewn Elkhide garments and moccasins Manu Forti www.stitchinscotsman.com ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C48C10.87DEAFA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

John,

I highly recommend the = Lancaster=20 County Longrifles event which will
be April 27 - May 1, 2005 at Muddy = Run=20 Park, Holtwood, PA.
Directions and all kinds of inf available on = their=20 webpage.

http://www.threadtheneedle.net/lanc/

-----Original Message-----
From:=20 owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of John=20 McKee
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 7:04 PM
To:=20 hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: MtMan-List: need some=20 information

Good evening all. =

Could = someone in the=20 general Collegeville, PA. area give me some good 'starter' and just = all around=20 great Rendezvous? The reason is that I have a 12 year = old customer=20 in that town who is really interested in the 'buckskinning' = culture and=20 his parents have never heard of Rendezvous! Considering his excitement = with=20 getting into the woods I was shocked when his mother emailed me = tonight and=20 asked me what Rondezvous was. Any information/dates and = directions that I=20 can pass on to him and his parents would be greatly appreciated.=20 Thanks, John

The Stitchin' = Scotsman
100% Handsewn=20 Elkhide garments
and moccasins
Manu Forti
www.stitchinscotsman.com

------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C48C10.87DEAFA0-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: MtMan-List: Mr. Mitchell: a question about brain tan... Date: 28 Aug 2004 22:13:32 EDT I got four hides for free, fleshed 'em and soaked them in a salt brine for a few weeks. Even with the salt, the later rinse, the bucking in lye and rinse in a constant stream of water (hose trickle in a big Rubbermaid container) for several days, these hides still have a bit of a gamey smell - not rotten - just gamey. Not overpowering, but definitely stout in aroma. Are these hides OK in your opinion. Other than the smell they do not seem to be any worse for the wear. -Chris B. South Carolina ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mr. Mitchell: a question about brain tan... Date: 28 Aug 2004 23:03:15 EDT Sorry guys, that was meant to go to Mr. Mitchell off-list. My apologies. ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "G Pakulski" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mr. Mitchell: a question about brain tan... Date: 29 Aug 2004 08:19:52 -0600 That All right , I'd like to know the answer to that one myself.. I haven't tanned a hide for a whole lot of years and we always learn more..... ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 9:03 PM > Sorry guys, that was meant to go to Mr. Mitchell off-list. My apologies. > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mr. Mitchell: a question about brain tan... Date: 29 Aug 2004 21:03:27 -0600 IN my humble and not expert opinoin hides always smell. Like the critter, like the bucking, like wet leather, like brains, like smoke, like horse sweat, like grease and dirt, like worn out leather. If it was a rotten smell I would worry. If I had a wife that didn't like the smell in the house Id worry, as it is I wouldn't worry. Wynn Ormond With a mere ten braining under his belt ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 8:19 AM > That All right , I'd like to know the answer to that one myself.. I haven't > tanned a hide for a whole lot of years and we always learn more..... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 9:03 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mr. Mitchell: a question about brain tan... > > > > Sorry guys, that was meant to go to Mr. Mitchell off-list. My apologies. > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Mr. Mitchell: a question about brain tan... Date: 30 Aug 2004 10:13:11 -0700 Smells are fine at that stage. Hides can get really, really, rank and still be tanned, and once they are smoked both the bacteria and smell will disappear. With brain tan buckskin, the only sure sign that there is a problem is if the hide starts falling apart... Matt Richards www.braintan.com -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Wynn Ormond Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 8:03 PM IN my humble and not expert opinoin hides always smell. Like the critter, like the bucking, like wet leather, like brains, like smoke, like horse sweat, like grease and dirt, like worn out leather. If it was a rotten smell I would worry. If I had a wife that didn't like the smell in the house Id worry, as it is I wouldn't worry. Wynn Ormond With a mere ten braining under his belt ----- Original Message ----- Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 8:19 AM > That All right , I'd like to know the answer to that one myself.. I haven't > tanned a hide for a whole lot of years and we always learn more..... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 9:03 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mr. Mitchell: a question about brain tan... > > > > Sorry guys, that was meant to go to Mr. Mitchell off-list. My apologies. > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Mr. Mitchell: a question about brain tan... Date: 30 Aug 2004 19:22:40 -0600 (MDT) List, It's good to know that we have Matt reading our e-mails. I met Matt and his bunch down at Vipond Park and he knows his stuff. And of course I have his book. I have two question about hides. I have several fine deer hides that I skinned right away, fleshed clean, then salted till dry. Some are a year old some are two and some are three years old. They still look good but I was wondering if the older ones are still worth tanning? Also a brain tanner once told me it harder to tan a hide that has been salted? Any truth to that? Just like to know before I try to tan the older ones. Thanks for any help, bb > Smells are fine at that stage. Hides can get really, really, rank and > still > be tanned, and once they are smoked both the bacteria and smell will > disappear. With brain tan buckskin, the only sure sign that there is a > problem is if the hide starts falling apart... > > Matt Richards > www.braintan.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Wynn Ormond > Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 8:03 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mr. Mitchell: a question about brain tan... > > IN my humble and not expert opinoin hides always smell. Like the critter, > like the bucking, like wet leather, like brains, like smoke, like horse > sweat, like grease and dirt, like worn out leather. If it was a rotten > smell I would worry. If I had a wife that didn't like the smell in the > house Id worry, as it is I wouldn't worry. > > Wynn Ormond > With a mere ten braining under his belt > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "G Pakulski" > To: > Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 8:19 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mr. Mitchell: a question about brain tan... > > >> That All right , I'd like to know the answer to that one myself.. I > haven't >> tanned a hide for a whole lot of years and we always learn more..... >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 9:03 PM >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mr. Mitchell: a question about brain tan... >> >> >> > Sorry guys, that was meant to go to Mr. Mitchell off-list. My > apologies. >> > >> > >> > ---------------------- >> > hist_text list info: >> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >> >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Mr. Mitchell: a question about brain tan... Date: 31 Aug 2004 10:04:02 -0700 BB & List, Typically, old dried out hides are really nice to tan. There is a mucus like substance in between the fibers that breaks down with age. With this stuff gone, it is considerably easier to get the hides brained and softened. Three year old dried out hides often tan up to be the softest you've ever felt. The negative side is that dried out hides are usually harder to scrape. The grain just clings more tightly. Certainly doable, many people tan hides that are stored dry, and I used to too, its just not optimal. The only problem salt causes with brain tanning is that if its not rinsed out properly (overnight in a barrel with water trickling through it), then they are harder to dry-scrape --- they just don't dry on the frame right. With wetscrape its completely not an issue. The idea salting makes brain tan harder or worse is just a common lay brain tanners myth. No truth to it whatsoever. Salt enters hides easily, and it rinses out easily. The myth probably started from someone who dryscrapes but wasn't doing the overnight rinse to get the salt out first. I've tanned a 1000+ salted hides... Matt Richards www.braintan.com -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of beaverboy@sofast.net Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 6:23 PM List, It's good to know that we have Matt reading our e-mails. I met Matt and his bunch down at Vipond Park and he knows his stuff. And of course I have his book. I have two question about hides. I have several fine deer hides that I skinned right away, fleshed clean, then salted till dry. Some are a year old some are two and some are three years old. They still look good but I was wondering if the older ones are still worth tanning? Also a brain tanner once told me it harder to tan a hide that has been salted? Any truth to that? Just like to know before I try to tan the older ones. Thanks for any help, bb > Smells are fine at that stage. Hides can get really, really, rank and > still > be tanned, and once they are smoked both the bacteria and smell will > disappear. With brain tan buckskin, the only sure sign that there is a > problem is if the hide starts falling apart... > > Matt Richards > www.braintan.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Wynn Ormond > Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 8:03 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mr. Mitchell: a question about brain tan... > > IN my humble and not expert opinoin hides always smell. Like the critter, > like the bucking, like wet leather, like brains, like smoke, like horse > sweat, like grease and dirt, like worn out leather. If it was a rotten > smell I would worry. If I had a wife that didn't like the smell in the > house Id worry, as it is I wouldn't worry. > > Wynn Ormond > With a mere ten braining under his belt > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "G Pakulski" > To: > Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2004 8:19 AM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mr. Mitchell: a question about brain tan... > > >> That All right , I'd like to know the answer to that one myself.. I > haven't >> tanned a hide for a whole lot of years and we always learn more..... >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: >> Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2004 9:03 PM >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mr. Mitchell: a question about brain tan... >> >> >> > Sorry guys, that was meant to go to Mr. Mitchell off-list. My > apologies. >> > >> > >> > ---------------------- >> > hist_text list info: >> http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> >> >> >> ---------------------- >> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dennis Knapp Subject: MtMan-List: another brain tan question Date: 31 Aug 2004 15:34:41 -0600 Since we are on the subject of brain tanning, here is another question about stored hides. What about hides that have been in the freezer for 1-2 years. Will they still be good to tan. The hair is still on. I keep thinking about doing brain tanning but have not as yet. No excuses, just haven't. Maybe some of the PRP boys could get together for a weekend and demonstrate brain tanning to the beginner with their own hide. Hint hint!! VBG Regards, Dennis Knapp southern Idaho ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Matt Richards" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: another brain tan question Date: 31 Aug 2004 15:14:37 -0700 Dennis Knapp & List Frozen hides will keep indefinitely for tanning as buckskin. They won't have the mucus break down that dried out hides have, so they'll behave more like fresh hides. They will be wetscrape nicely though, just like fresh hides. We have an article on storing hides online at http://www.braintan.com/articles/storing.html Matt Richards www.braintan.com -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com] On Behalf Of Dennis Knapp Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 2:35 PM Since we are on the subject of brain tanning, here is another question about stored hides. What about hides that have been in the freezer for 1-2 years. Will they still be good to tan. The hair is still on. I keep thinking about doing brain tanning but have not as yet. No excuses, just haven't. Maybe some of the PRP boys could get together for a weekend and demonstrate brain tanning to the beginner with their own hide. Hint hint!! VBG Regards, Dennis Knapp southern Idaho ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: MtMan-List: Thanks Matt Date: 31 Aug 2004 17:04:06 -0700 ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Hi Matt, I've been seeing you on the list, and just wanted to say 'Thanks' for all of the help you have been to me and so many others. I've tanned about 18 hides (3 of them elk) , and got most of my learning from your book and website. I've ordered tools from you and you were great to do business with. A hide scraper I ordered was back ordered, hey..it happens. You sent a personal note and a free signed copy of your book to appologize....above and beyond the call of duty, and greatly appreciated. If any of you folks haven't checked out Matt's site, do so.... you won't be disappointed. http://braintan.com/ I still have much to learn, but feel confident that practice and the info. that Matt makes available will turn me in to a first rate tanner yet. Thanks again Matt. Yfab, Randy Randal Bublitz rjbublitz@earthlink.net life is short, paddle hard... ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII

Hi Matt, I've been seeing you on the list, and just wanted to say 'Thanks' for all of the help you have been to me and so many others. I've tanned about 18 hides (3 of them elk) , and got most of my learning from your book and website. I've ordered tools from you and you were great to do business with. A hide scraper I ordered was back ordered, hey..it happens. You sent a personal note and a free signed copy of your book to appologize....above and beyond the call of duty, and greatly appreciated.

If any of you folks haven't checked out Matt's site, do so.... you won't be disappointed. http://braintan.com/

I still have much to learn, but feel confident that practice and the info. that Matt makes available will turn me in to a first rate tanner yet. Thanks again Matt. Yfab, Randy

Randal Bublitz

rjbublitz@earthlink.net

life is short, paddle hard...

------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LivingInThePast@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Thanks Matt Date: 31 Aug 2004 20:22:41 EDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/31/2004 5:05:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time, rjbublitz@earthlink.net writes: 'Thanks' for all of the help you have been to me and so many others. I have to 2nd that, and add that while there are some of us may not have the time, space, neighbors or inclination to do tanning, Matt and his lovely bride Michelle also custom make clothing and bags. IMO their skins, designs and workmanship are something to behold. Matt - Hope all is well with you and yours, Barney (Ralph Rosen) Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

In a message dated 8/31/2004 5:05:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time,=20 rjbublitz@earthlink.net writes:

<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size= =3D2>

'Thanks' for all of the help you have been to me and so many=20 others.

I have to 2nd that, and add that while there are some of us may= not=20 have the time, space, neighbors or inclination to do=20 tanning, Matt and his lovely bride Michelle also custom make=20 clothing and bags. IMO their skins, designs and workmanship=20 are something to behold.

Matt - Hope all is well with you and yours, Ba= rney=20 (Ralph Rosen)

---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: HikingOnThru@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mr. Mitchell: a question about brain tan... Date: 01 Sep 2004 00:41:15 EDT In a message dated 8/30/04 1:05:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, matt@braintan.com writes: With brain tan buckskin, the only sure sign that there is a problem is if the hide starts falling apart... >> Matt and others, Thanks for the feedback. I am sad to say that the hides did NOT turn out too well today when I took them out of the rinse. I had used Red Devil Lye to make my buck...hair slipped well. I rinsed the hides in water for about 4-5 days...a big RubberMaid container with my hose in it at a low trickle to keep water convection happening...hides weighted with a big rock and turned several times. When I went to scrape off the grain today, the hides got holes VERY easily. I just gave up when my best and biggest hide got its ninth hole right in the middle. My scraper (drawknife) was not too sharp...this I know for sure. I wonder if one or three things occurred...I left them in the lye solution and or water too long an weakened the hide; my buck was too strong (though same solution I have used before with great results) and weakened the hide, I was trying to scrape off too much grain (the last hides I tried the grain came off in a very distinct layer - these did not behave in such a manner. In fact, it looked as if on a very thin gummy buildup was on the scraper and I was just pushing water out of the hides) OR carrying a squirming child all over for the past 20 months has made me stronger than I realized causing me to scrape holes in my hides. Any ideas? Criticisms? Critiques? It seems these hides were possessed or something. The last two were very small and I just dehaired them and let them dry to rawhide for drumheads/containers. Fortunately, deer season here is but a month away and I have a processor who will save hides for me...should even get a summer hide or three what with our weather staying hot till November and deer season opening Oct. 1st. Thanks all for any ideas. -Christopher ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

Your document:	MtMan-List: new book
was received by:	Bob Tannehil/St Louis/IBM
at:	08/16/2004 13:03:56 CDT

Your document:	Re: MtMan-List: new book
was received by:	Bob Tannehil/St Louis/IBM
at:	08/16/2004 13:03:45 CDT