From: "P.D. Amschler" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mocs Date: 01 May 1998 08:07:13 -0700 --- amschlers@mailcity.com >Need a supplier who has Apache or Navaho style mocs with the white rawhide >soles. ( Not the Tandy junk " apache stuff) SW indian made. >Thanks, >YF There is a store on the Navajo Reservation both in Window Rock and Chinle I will try and get the address for you. Paul Get your FREE, private e-mail account at http://www.mailcity.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "P.D. Amschler" Subject: MtMan-List: Smoothbore barrels Date: 01 May 1998 08:15:44 -0700 Over the past few months I have learnd a lot from this list and I send out my thanks to all. But alass I have more questions. I am trying to put together a smoothbore a 62cal/20 gage trade rifle in a flint lock. Do any of you have any cataloge address' or other sources? I have Dixie and a old mountain states cataloges but that is it. Thanks in advance Humbly your servent Paul amschlers@mailcity.com Get your FREE, private e-mail account at http://www.mailcity.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gail Carbiener" Subject: MtMan-List: Choker....... Date: 01 May 1998 08:16:23 -0700 To all: Did the pre 1840s mountain men wear leather and bead chokers? Can't see any in Alfred J. Miller's drawings. Wouldn't it be in the way when they were trapping? Gail (The newbeeee duen liven histry) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Addison Miller Subject: Re: MtMan-List: (Man of the) Cloth Date: 01 May 1998 11:45:21 -0400 Check my web page http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arcare/1427. I have several books listed there, plus a link to Amazon.com for other publications. They can find ANY book if it is still in print somewhere. Addison Miller Angela Gottfred wrote: > "Ken YellowFeather" wrote: > > Do you have any thing like this on > > the goods taken to the rendezvous in the American west? Or any data on > > cotton goods sold at the various western trading posts? Esp. with > > descriptions as good as the ones you just posted? > > Sorry, no. I try very hard to concentrate on the Canadian fur trade, > 1774-1821--that's how I'm able to build up this information. But this sort > of research is really quite easy, if you're doing the reading anyhow. > Whenever I read something related to my field, I use a half-dozen ruled > 3"X5" index cards as my bookmark, and keep a pen handy. Then, if I read > something interesting or useful, I write it down on an index card. On the > top corner, I make a note about the subject (for example, TRADE > GOODS--CLOTHING) and on the bottom, I make a short note about where it came > from (e.g. Johnson, 317). The first time I make a note from any book, I make > a card for the book, giving author, title, publisher, ISBN, etc., so that > later I can figure out what book "Johnson" was. Finished cards go into a > recipe box, sorted by subject. > > I didn't invent this system, but it sure works for me. Although it sounds > like a pain in the butt, and it sure slows down my reading at times, it > really helps me to keep my facts straight. Some people can remember > everything they read, but I find that I need my notes to help keep me honest. > > Your humble & obedient servant, > Angela Gottfred > agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Smoothbore barrels Date: 01 May 1998 12:13:28 EDT In a message dated 98-05-01 11:24:00 EDT, you write: << I am trying to put together a smoothbore a 62cal/20 gage trade rifle in a flint lock. Do any of you have any cataloge address' or other sources? I have Dixie and a old mountain states cataloges but that is it. >> Black Powder Shooter and Builder Resources page http://users.aol.com/canaltwo/bp-parts.htm 99% of resources available OldFox ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Smoothbore barrels Date: 01 May 1998 13:22:59 EDT Paul and the rest of the list, check this out: http://users.aol.com/canaltwo/bp-parts.htm. This is about the best resource I've seen for parts 'n stuff. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker....... Date: 01 May 1998 13:26:51 EDT Gail, Although there were chokers and breastplates, used more for protection than decor, it seems the use of bonepipe, as we see at rendezvous today, didn't come into being until MUCH later. People I have talked to tell me its not correct for the pre-1840 period. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Smoothbore barrels Date: 01 May 1998 11:17:09 -0700 Paul You might try " Track of the Wolf, Inc. P. O. Box 6, Osseo, Minnesota 55369-0006 or www.track0fthewolf.com or 612-424-2500. They have quit a selection of barrels and gun parts plus kits like you are looking for. Capt. Lahti -----Original Message----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CT OAKES Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Smoothbore barrels Date: 01 May 1998 14:48:50 EDT In a message dated 98-05-01 11:24:00 EDT, you write: << I am trying to put together a smoothbore a 62cal/20 gage trade rifle in a flint lock. Do any of you have any cataloge address' or other sources? I have Dixie and a old mountain states cataloges but that is it. Thanks in advance Humbly your servent Paul >> Track of the Wolfe, PO Box 6, Osseo, Mn 55369-0006 cataloge is $7 Pecatonica River Long Rifle Supply Co, PO Box 2791, Rockford Ill 61132 catalog $3 Vernon C. Davis & Co, 6901 Running Deer Pl., Dept MB, Dublin Oh 43017 catalog $1 Golden Age Arms Co. 115 E. High St., Box 366, Ashley, Oh 43003 If you can't get what you want from one of these you don't need it. Your humble servant C.T. Oakes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bruce.mcneal@ssa.gov Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Smoothbore barrels Date: 01 May 1998 13:07:00 -0500 Paul, Here are a couple of on-line sources for you. Jim Chambers FLintlocks http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/8990/ JP Gunstocks http://jpgunstocks.com/ Log Cabin Shop http://www.logcabinshop.com/ Good luck, Bruce McNeal -----Original Message----- Sent: Friday, May 01, 1998 8:15 AM Over the past few months I have learnd a lot from this list and I send out my thanks to all. But alass I have more questions. I am trying to put together a smoothbore a 62cal/20 gage trade rifle in a flint lock. Do any of you have any cataloge address' or other sources? I have Dixie and a old mountain states cataloges but that is it. Thanks in advance Humbly your servent Paul amschlers@mailcity.com Get your FREE, private e-mail account at http://www.mailcity.com << File: RFC822.TXT >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "yellow rose/pendleton" Subject: MtMan-List: smooth bore barrels Date: 01 May 1998 19:27:23 -0500 Paul, I'm glad I'm not the only one with the itch to build a smooth rifle. I think the they were a lot more common, in the 18th and early 19th century, than most people realize. I recently orderd a smooth bore barrel from Jerry Cuningham at ORION RIFLE BARREL CO. RR2, COBBLER VILLAGE ROAD- KALISPELL, MT.59901 I don't know if he has a e-mail address, but his business phone # is 409-257-5649. Good luck. Happy hunting. Pendleton ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA Subject: Re: MtMan-List: California Primitive Rendezvous - Kernville Date: 01 May 1998 21:57:33 EDT I was wondering if anyone on this list would tell me about your experience at the June rendezvous in Kernville. Lookin' for a new one, thought this might be it. YHS, PJ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "The Windhams" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: California Primitive Rendezvous - Kernville Date: 02 May 1998 19:22:38 -0700 The Kernville rondi is a good one !!! I was at it last year for the day ( my work schedule messed me up ) but from what I saw , they were off to a good start. theres a fishing creek about a good 1000' off to one side of the in-campment area, where the kids played aand fished in fact as I recalled they held a fishing contest for the kids. and they had to fish the old way( cane pole ) they had a good turn out for being the first year, infact I plan to go this year aand stay . All the close friends who were there said they really injoyed themselfs and are planing to return. but it is a long drive back in them woods! hope to see you there ! Rick http://www.ptw.com/~lattanze/home/blackhawk.html ---------- > From: RR1LA > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: California Primitive Rendezvous - Kernville > Date: Friday, May 01, 1998 6:57 PM > > I was wondering if anyone on this list would tell me about your experience at > the June rendezvous in Kernville. Lookin' for a new one, thought this might > be it. YHS, PJ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: button front trousers Date: 01 May 1998 22:42:35 -0700 Y/F; You asked Thur. 30 April how far back button fly trousers go. From what I have been able to find and what I've seen in contemporary paintings of the early 1800's, button fly trousers are not in fashion much before the mid 1800's, much too late for the Rocky Mt. Fur Trade. I do know that the French used a button front fly much earlier but during the period of time we are interested, the prevelant English and American fashion was the drop front fly with two buttons at the top corners of a large to moderate rectangular fly. The french fly would be OK only if the garment is of the proper cut i.e, britches or pantaloons (coveralls), no bib intended. I am not sure whether the pants and britches worn by the early mt. man had a laceup back but I would suspect so and that is the easiest way to make them. By the by if you are concerned about authenticity you might want to stear away from wearing so called Navaho moc's with the rawhide soles. They are not correct for the rendezvous era but rather came into use quit recently, not to say that SW Indians didn't make moc's with rawhide soles but they did not look much like whats available today. It is not hard to make moc's with thick soles that are correct. They do not have to be side seam either as several different types of moc were worn by the frontiersman in the Rocky's and farther east. I wish some one would find the info you requested on that frenchy vest. I bet it was rather short and of fine material such as brochade or such. Them Frogs did like to put on the fuferau! Hope this was of help to you in your journey. From one Pilgrim to another, I'm ,,, YMOS Capt. Lahti -----Original Message----- >Anyone on the list know when trousers were first made with a button fly >similar to today's trousers? I know they had them by 1860, any earlier? >YF > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ITWHEELER Subject: Re: MtMan-List: roasting coffee Date: 02 May 1998 04:55:25 EDT just wish one time to go to one like that . canada has always held some kind of magic for me . it seems like the moon to me .i mean so far away. wekcome to the list. iron tounge ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ITWHEELER Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Camp Gear, Tents & Cookware Date: 02 May 1998 04:55:24 EDT would like to get e mail from you any time . thanks for the tid bits of information iron toung that walks ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: darlene Subject: Re: MtMan-List: button front trousers Date: 02 May 1998 07:11:05 -0400 The French had them in the mid 1700's. The were knee breeches and also they had the lace back. It was very similar to the drop front knee breeches that were being worn. Hope this helps you. Respectfully Darlene At 09:13 PM 4/30/98 -0500, you wrote: >Anyone on the list know when trousers were first made with a button fly >similar to today's trousers? I know they had them by 1860, any earlier? >YF > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: roasting agave Date: 02 May 1998 12:27:21 -0400 concur with the pepe lopez- as almost not fit to drink, dont recomend trying the over the log drink with this stuff. bad side effects. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:37:22 -1000 Blue Rider writes: >ITWHEELER wrote: >> >> blue i had some of that coffe one time never forget the taste. they >> have a >> watered down version hear in the states. tasts like studd horse piss >> with the >> foam farted offthanks blue iron tounge > > > LOL! Boy, aint that the truth. Pure Kona coffee is wonderful; it's >when they start blending it with other stuff, it goes to hell. In >most >blends, they *brag* about having 10% Kona. Go figger. > >Recently tried some tequila that tasted the same. If anybody offer >you >Pepe Lopez, RUN!! > >Blue > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: darlene Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Smoothbore barrels Date: 02 May 1998 22:06:58 -0400 paul another really good place to buy gun parts or kits is VERNON C. DAVIS & CO. address is 6901 RUNNING DEER PLACE DUBLIN,OHIO 43017 phone # is 1-614-761-2568.they advertise in muzzleloader.they carry colerian barrels in any confirgureation & cal or gauge.i have dealt with VERN on several occasions & he has always been very helpful.i am finishing a tulle style for my 16 yr old son that he purchased from VERN at the eastern & i beleive he has about 450 in parts.hope this helps you out your humble servant shootshimself At 08:15 AM 5/1/98 -0700, you wrote: > Over the past few months I have learnd a lot from this list and I send out my thanks to all. But alass I have more questions. > > I am trying to put together a smoothbore a 62cal/20 gage trade rifle in a flint lock. Do any of you have any cataloge address' or other sources? I have Dixie and a old mountain states cataloges but that is it. > >Thanks in advance > >Humbly your servent >Paul > > >amschlers@mailcity.com > > >Get your FREE, private e-mail >account at http://www.mailcity.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dejim55 Subject: MtMan-List: water proofing canvas Date: 02 May 1998 22:28:52 EDT I JUST WENT TO THE YARDAGE STORE AND BOUGHT MYSELF 8 YARDS OF CANVAS. I PLAN TO SEW THEM UP TO MAKE MYSELF A DIAMOND FLY FOR PRIMATIVE TRECKS. WILL THIS BE EXCEPTABLE? AND HOW DO I WATER PROOF THEM? APPRECIATE ANY HELP I CAN GET. I'M DEEPLY INDEPTED FOR ANY HELP ANYONE CAN GIVE, MANY HATS. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water proofing canvas Date: 03 May 1998 00:23:40 EDT In a message dated 98-05-02 22:33:04 EDT, you write: << I JUST WENT TO THE YARDAGE STORE AND BOUGHT MYSELF 8 YARDS OF CANVAS. I PLAN TO SEW THEM UP TO MAKE MYSELF A DIAMOND FLY FOR PRIMATIVE TRECKS. WILL THIS BE EXCEPTABLE? AND HOW DO I WATER PROOF THEM? APPRECIATE ANY HELP I CAN GET. I'M DEEPLY INDEPTED FOR ANY HELP ANYONE CAN GIVE, MANY HATS. >> This string comes up quite often. There are many period correct methods of waterproofing and without getting into a lot of detail, they consist of using chemicals that leave you with a highly flamable piece of canvas. I have the recipe somewhere buried in my puter.......if you want them contact me off list. Since I have my boy sleeping in my diamond with me I opt for the not so period correct but basically undetectable modern canvas waterproofing that you can often find in your hardware store or army surplus or camping supply company. Just don't mess with spraying it on. Put yer canvas in a bucket and poor it in until covered and let it soak it up. Then hang to drip dry with something underneath to catch the drippings so you can reuse. One more thing. Before you go carving and sewing on that canvas, if it can be returned, compare the cost for what you bought against a canvas painters tarp at your local paint supply store. Maybe you can save a handfull of greenbacks. Longshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tedhart@juno.com (Ted A Hart) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker....... Date: 03 May 1998 00:27:59 EDT Leather, yes....beads...mostly pony beads (a specific size which is big)...chokers not really like in the stores unless they lived with American Indians year round I believe. Anyone have any thoughts on this? Ted _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker....... Date: 03 May 1998 20:59:19 -0400 Ted A Hart wrote: > Leather, yes....beads...mostly pony beads (a specific size which is > big)...chokers not really like in the stores unless they lived with > American Indians year round I believe. What do you mean by this statement??? If the choker is wrong..what would living with them year round change.\??? Linda Holley > Anyone have any thoughts on this? > > Ted > > _____________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: roasting coffee beans Date: 28 Apr 1998 05:53:31 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD7269.F950DA40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I Think you are right about the tea but coffee was costly like today and was not much to be had. I'll throw this out. I read something Mark Baker wrote and he couldn't find any inventories that allowed him to carry brick tea can any one tell me of any inventories that had Brick tea on them. I think the HBC had some at one time, at Fort Vancouver. Angela help. Later Jon T ---------- : From: Blue Rider : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: Re: MtMan-List: roasting coffee beans : Date: Tuesday, April 28, 1998 12:03 AM : :: > iron tounge : It's my understanding that they mostly carried and drank black tea. : : Blue : ------=_NextPart_000_01BD7269.F950DA40 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I Think you are right about the tea but = coffee was costly like today and was not much to be had.  I'll = throw this out.  I  read something Mark Baker wrote and he = couldn't find any inventories that allowed him to carry brick tea can = any one tell me of any inventories that had Brick tea on them.  I = think the HBC had some at one time, at Fort Vancouver.  Angela = help.     Later Jon T

----------
: From: = Blue Rider <blurdr@gte.net>
: To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: roasting coffee = beans
: Date: Tuesday, April 28, 1998 12:03 AM
:
:: > =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;    iron tounge
: It's my understanding that = they mostly carried and drank black tea.
:
: Blue
:

------=_NextPart_000_01BD7269.F950DA40-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tedhart@juno.com (Ted A Hart) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker....... Date: 03 May 1998 23:07:41 EDT On Sun, 03 May 1998 20:59:19 -0400 Linda Holley writes: > > >Ted A Hart wrote: > >> Leather, yes....beads...mostly pony beads (a specific size which is >> big)...chokers not really like in the stores unless they lived with >> American Indians year round I believe. > >What do you mean by this statement??? If the choker is wrong..what >would >living with them year round change.\??? > >Linda Holley You are right....sorry about that. Ok what I think I was trying to explain was that chokers were worn mostly by warriors for protection against arrows and in some cases bullets (has it been documented?). Women usually didn't wear those. Nowdays chokers are made with plastics and all. If you look at pictures of old time warriors you'll see that the chokers were made with hollowed out bones. Of what kind of bones I don't know but I made one when I was 12 with fish rib bones and it looked good till the string began to disgerate. Mountain men didn't usually wear them unless they lived with American Indians alot and I don't even know if they did....does anyone know this? Maybe I'm treading in strange terriority right now :) Every time I go to the powwows (Indian dancing) every one wears chokers. I have one myself made of plastic from Tandy :) But I do know of some individuals selling handmade chokers and they are expensive like hell and filled with some stuff you would've not seen in the past like metals etc. Ted _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: Fw: Fwd: MtMan-List: The sail mfg. industry Date: 30 Apr 1998 19:09:57 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD746B.90F2DD00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit : : Comments : : : : : As for materials it is hard for the common person to tell the difference : between hemp, cotton, linen, or polyester. I made a shirt a few years : back and hand sewed it ( big deal) and I held up the material against the : real stuff ( linen ) to polyester I couldn't tell the difference between : the two. The difference between the two was $15.00 a yd. We have a man : from the NW and he will look over your shirt real close. Stand in front : of you talking, while he is looking you over you feel like your fly is : open. So I make my stitches far enough apart for people to see it is hand : stitched. But what most of the nit pickers don't realize is that a self : respecting person back in the time frame wouldn't wear such poorly made : shirts . I don't think being so picky is important, now some of my : brother will come down on me for this but I can take it. This man said : how could I in good conscience stand in front of some school children and talk : to them with a machine sewn shirt. My come back kids in school aren't : that picky and wouldn't know the difference. That is how I do it but when he : sees me wearing a hand sewn shirt I make him happy but he don't know it : all. The point is, it don't make a lot of difference what shirts are made : of, modern tech does a good job of making fabric. As for hemp rope I understand it is easy to weaken when wet. It makes good fire starting material. I use it that is over 50 years old. and the only thing any better is paper wasp nest - the wasps. Later Jon T. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD746B.90F2DD00 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



:
: Comments :
:
: : =
: As for materials it is hard for the common person to tell the = difference
: between hemp, cotton, linen, or polyester.  I made = a shirt a few years
: back and hand sewed it ( big deal) and I held = up the material against the
: real stuff ( linen ) to polyester I = couldn't tell the difference between
: the two.  The difference = between the two was $15.00 a yd.  We have a man
: from the NW = and he will look over your shirt real close.  Stand in front
: = of you talking,  while he is looking you over you feel like your = fly is
: open.  So I make my stitches far enough apart for = people to see it is hand
: stitched.  But what most of the nit = pickers don't realize is that  a self
: respecting person back = in the time frame wouldn't wear such poorly made
: shirts . =   I don't think being so picky is important,  now some of = my
: brother will come down on me for this but I can take it. =  This man said
: how could I in good conscience stand in front = of some school children and talk
: to them with a machine sewn = shirt.  My come back kids in school aren't
: that picky and = wouldn't  know the difference.  That is how I do it but when = he
: sees me wearing a hand sewn shirt I make him happy but he don't = know it
: all.  The point is, it don't make a lot of difference = what shirts are made
: of, modern tech does a good job of making = fabric.   

As for hemp rope I understand it is easy to = weaken when wet.  It makes good fire starting material.
I use = it that is over 50 years old.  and the only thing any better is = paper wasp nest - the wasps.  

Later Jon T.

------=_NextPart_000_01BD746B.90F2DD00-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "no@gpcom.net" Subject: MtMan-List: wrong cavas Date: 30 Apr 1998 21:25:40 -0700 the list made a wedge tent myself,but made the mistake of doing it myself andmade the mistake of using a canvas that does not have a tight enough of a weave. is there any thing that can be done to water proof it?? t. water seal doesnt help. guess there are things that should be left to the professionals. (tent smiths) :) frank :( ;( ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Smoothbore barrels Date: 02 May 1998 13:03:21 -0700 Hello the List, Just a couple questions... Is the smoothbore the gun most often carried by the western fur trapper or eastern woodsman and if so what time frames are we talking about? What rifled barrel guns were carried by western mountain men? Thanks, Medicine Bear ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JFLEMYTH Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Smoothbore barrels Date: 04 May 1998 08:40:14 EDT Dear Paul, The trade gun stocked by Dixie is made by North Star West. You can get their pamphlet by sending them your address and three stamps. They will use one stamp to send it to you, and God only knows what they do with the other two! Their address is: North Star West P.O. box 488 Glencoe, California 95232 They sell parts, kits, assembled in the white, or completed trade guns. They also make an 18" barrel 'canoe gun', a chief's grade, and several other variations. Your somewhat humble and obedient servant, John Fleming ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken McWilliams" Subject: Re: Fwd: MtMan-List: The sail mfg. industry Date: 03 May 1998 23:25:05 -0500 Thank you Jon! I love to see a man who uses reason instead of historic hysteria! I have a shirt that is probably very close to what you describe and everyone thinks that it is linen. It is also machine sewn. And you are right, kids want to see, to experience through you as a person. I doubt that they would give two hoots if it is hand sewn! I have given lectures to Boy Scouts about the mountain men and they wanted to see the flint and steel and wanted to see if you really could make a fire with it. The fire drill really impresses them too! When I would talk about the clothing and such, that was OK. But most of the time they wanted to know about real mountain men and how they lived and survived. I keep hearing about period correct. You can not use your Whelen or Baker canvas lean to, but a canvas tipi is fine? C'mon people, what happened to learning the skills that kept them alive? Is everyone just in it to re-inact the fur trade, or to LIVE it? Costumes are for parties and such. If you have mountain man clothes to wear, why not call them clothes? If someone is so nit-picky that they want to inspect your shirt to se if you hand sewed it, he needs to get a life! Rendezvous is supposed to be fun too! I have hand sewn shirts and I have machine sewn shirts, sinew sewn skins and some sewn with that fake stuff. I have worn both and no one ever inspected my clothing or complained about it. I am not saying that rubber soled mocs are correct for an AMM rendezvous, no way, but this fanatic approach is just as bad. Some one pointed out that we can not chop down half the forest to do a rendezvous and that the canvas lean to was a good substitute, and I agree with him. By the same token, we can't afford buffalo hide tipi's either. Any one out there get the point? Respectfully, Your Obt. Servant, Ken YellowFeather ---------- : : Comments : : : : : As for materials it is hard for the common person to tell the difference : between hemp, cotton, linen, or polyester. I made a shirt a few years : back and hand sewed it ( big deal) and I held up the material against the : real stuff ( linen ) to polyester I couldn't tell the difference between : the two. The difference between the two was $15.00 a yd. We have a man : from the NW and he will look over your shirt real close. Stand in front : of you talking, while he is looking you over you feel like your fly is : open. So I make my stitches far enough apart for people to see it is hand : stitched. But what most of the nit pickers don't realize is that a self : respecting person back in the time frame wouldn't wear such poorly made : shirts . I don't think being so picky is important, now some of my : brother will come down on me for this but I can take it. This man said : how could I in good conscience stand in front of some school children and talk : to them with a machine sewn shirt. My come back kids in school aren't : that picky and wouldn't know the difference. That is how I do it but when he : sees me wearing a hand sewn shirt I make him happy but he don't know it : all. The point is, it don't make a lot of difference what shirts are made : of, modern tech does a good job of making fabric. As for hemp rope I understand it is easy to weaken when wet. It makes good fire starting material. I use it that is over 50 years old. and the only thing any better is paper wasp nest - the wasps. Later Jon T. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Nathan Offutt Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water proofing canvas Date: 04 May 1998 10:27:48 -0700 (PDT) Heres my .02 on canvas for trecking. If you plan to carry it on your back then weight becomes a serious issue. If you are traveling by canoe or horse then weigt isn't such a big concern. I prefer to go as light as I possibly can even though I know that I may not be as comfertable in camp. The reduced weight on the trail plus the challenge of using less make the whole thing worthwile to me. When the canvas is waterproofed using lindseed oil then the weight seems to at least double. For my own personal use a piece of canvas just big enough to wrap completly around my bedroll (including me) plus a few inches to tuck under is plenty. This sort of decision depends on the level of comfert you seek while in the woods. As to the issue of waterproofing, I use lindseed oil painted on the canvas. One coat is not enough to waterproof it no matter how thoroughly the canvas is saturated. let it dry realy well before putting on a second coat (it probably will take a few weeks). The second coat should dry to a sort of semigloss sheen. Then it will be "waterproof". This whole procces takes a considerable amount of time so don't plan on waterproofing one week and trecking the next. You dont need to hem the edges as the fibers will be pretty well glued togather. It is flammable so keep it a reasonabl distance from the fire. You don't need to be parinoid, just use common sense. === Regards, Nathan Offutt ---Dejim55 wrote: > > I JUST WENT TO THE YARDAGE STORE AND BOUGHT MYSELF 8 YARDS OF CANVAS. I PLAN > TO SEW THEM UP TO MAKE MYSELF A DIAMOND FLY FOR PRIMATIVE TRECKS. WILL THIS > BE EXCEPTABLE? AND HOW DO I WATER PROOF THEM? APPRECIATE ANY HELP I CAN GET. > I'M DEEPLY INDEPTED FOR ANY HELP ANYONE CAN GIVE, MANY HATS. > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water proofing canvas Date: 04 May 1998 12:53:53 -0700 Been a couple of quiries on waterproofing canvas and such and I would offer this. I have had some luck using natural and perhaps period materials to waterproof bedrolls and such and this is how I do it. I use Linseed oil, but I make it more flexable with a large infusion of bees wax and for color I include a good shot of Burnt Umber Oil Paint. In a large coffee can, heat up (very carefully and outside) a quart or so of linseed oil until it will melt a coffee cup size piece of bees wax and sqeeze a 4oz tube of Burnt Umber Oil paint into the mix. Stur well and let cool a bit. It will be thined with paint thinner or other thinning medium off the heat just before it is applyed to your fabric. Fold up your fabric to no more than 4 thicknesses and spread out on a piece of that black stuff that is liquid proof and kills weeds if it covers them. Use a piece of this black stuff big enough to make a good work area for your fabric to rest on. Now thin the still warm oil/bees wax mix about 50/50 with the thinner and pour some into a roller pan. With a long handled roller, completely saturate the fabric, turning it over to get good saturation in all layers. Hang it to drip and dry in a sunny location and it should be close to usable in a week or so. The more bees wax you use the more flexible it will be. I have a ground cloth that wraps around me and is a bit bigger than a Whitney 4 Point that has been on the ground 5 or 6 times a year for the last 5 years and is still in one piece. It is made of 108" muslin and is probably too lite for a tarp but would work if need be. What ever you use, whether this method or T/Water seal, shrink the fabric first and saturate it with the waterproofing liquid. T/Wproofing can be used full strength and should be but linseed oil methods seem to need thinning so as not to go on too heavy and turn out stiff and make the fabric too heavy and fragile. I am still experimenting with the idea of using more flexible oils than linseed but the above method does work. Having spent 25 yrs. as a professional Fire Fighter I can assure you that almost any thing you do to natural fabric will add to it's combustibility. Wool is the exception as it is naturally fire resistant tho it will burn if you insist in laying in the fire. The other fabrics will at the least smolder until extinguished or vigerously burn if exposed to direct flame. So be forwarned and take precautions as needed. Hope this has been of help to you and good luck. YMOS "Capt." Lahti -----Original Message----- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: Fwd: MtMan-List: The sail mfg. industry Date: 04 May 1998 12:08:45 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BD7755.62FE4B40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Further comments Just wanted to weigh in with Jon and Yellow Feather on the subject of = materials and authenticity. I got to agree with what they are saying. I = too have been accosted at not so primitive du'ins in the NW by fellas = inspecting my clothes to see if they were hand sewn as if that makes the = difference between me being OK to talk to or not. I don't wear hand made = cloths to impress or make me acceptable to the well washed elete'. I do = what I do because I want to try and do it the way it was done back then. = Sometimes I get it right and sometimes I don't. Fact is that fella = couldn't have passed a close inspection himself. Like my friends Jon and Yellow Feather, Some of my clothes are of = period materials and hand sewn with period threads and some aren't. I = guess the main reason some are of all the right stuff is just to prove = to myself that I can do it, cause I do beleive that if it's worth do'in, = it's worth do'in right. Hopefully the first time. I encourage those I = come in contact to do the same, for the same reasons. If they choose not = to that is their business. I sure ain't gona go look'in at their = stitch'en.=20 Enough on that for now. YMOS "Capt." Lahti -----Original Message----- From: JON P TOWNS To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Sunday, May 03, 1998 8:36 PM Subject: Fw: Fwd: MtMan-List: The sail mfg. industry =20 =20 =20 .=20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BD7755.62FE4B40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Further comments
 
Just wanted to weigh in with Jon and Yellow Feather = on the=20 subject of materials and authenticity. I got to agree with what they are = saying.=20 I too have been accosted at not so primitive du'ins in the NW by fellas=20 inspecting my clothes to see if they were hand sewn as if that makes the = difference between me being OK to talk to or not. I don't wear hand made = cloths=20 to impress or make me acceptable to the well washed elete'. I do what I = do=20 because I want to try and do it the way it was done back then. Sometimes = I get=20 it right and sometimes I don't. Fact is that fella couldn't have passed = a close=20 inspection himself.
 
 Like my friends Jon and Yellow Feather, Some = of my=20 clothes are of period materials and hand sewn with period threads and = some=20 aren't. I guess the main reason some are of all the right stuff is just = to prove=20 to myself that I can do it, cause I do beleive that if it's worth do'in, = it's=20 worth do'in right. Hopefully the first time. I encourage those I come in = contact=20 to do the same, for the same reasons. If they choose not to that is = their=20 business. I sure ain't gona go look'in at their stitch'en.
 
Enough on that for now.
 
YMOS
"Capt." Lahti 
 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 JON P TOWNS <AMM944@prodigy.net>
To: = hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Sunday, May 03, 1998 8:36 PM
Subject: Fw: Fwd: = MtMan-List: The=20 sail mfg. industry


.=20  

------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BD7755.62FE4B40-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dejawog Subject: MtMan-List: Re: thanx..... Date: 04 May 1998 16:42:26 EDT In a message dated 5/4/98 10:42:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, you said..... Thank you Jon! I love to see a man who uses reason instead of historic hysteria!....... we think rendezvous is supposed to be fun!! we love all the fancy (and not-so) clothing, and things to be *right*, but lighten up, please... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Smooth bore barrels Date: 04 May 1998 16:45:28 -0400 MEDICINE BEAR the information that i am about to provide you with is my personal opinion and what i have absorbed from over 35 years buckskinning and from many fond friends past and present that are true buckskinners and people that were born over a 100 years too late. keep a open mind and accept what you feel is correct to you. The smooth bore rifle was only one option of the weapons carried by the western fur trapper or trader. use your common sense you will probably agree with the next statement that i am about to make. THE EARLY TRAPPERS AND MOUNTAIN MEN CARRIED WEAPON THAT THEY WERE COMFORTABLE WITH AND HAD THE ABILITY TO PURCHASE PRIOR TO LEAVING CIVILIZATION. THERE BASIC NEEDS DICTATED THE FIREARM THAT THEY FELT WAS REQUIRED. IT COULD HAVE BEEN A Smooth bore RIFLE, A FUSIL, A FOWLER, A RIFLED GUN, A SINGLE OR DOUBLE BARREL SHOTGUN, EVEN A HANDGUN. THE WEAPON WAS USED FOR DEFENSE AND FOR THE PROCUREMENT OF MEAT TO SUPPORT THEIR EXISTENCE AND FOR BASIC SELF PROTECTION. each firearm has a special feature that they could rightly justify or that they felt met their requirements. the neet part of a smooth bore is that you didn't have to have lead to fire it. only powder FLINT OR CAP and some type of wadding. lead or shot was wonderful but they could load them with rocks, a wooden bullet or anything else that would fit down the barrel if they were to run out of shot or ball. The northwest trade gun was appropriate for period and many were altered by shortening the barrel and the stocks, kind of like our sawed off shotguns of today. many were repaired with raw hide to hold the barrel in the channel and you will see many examples of this in original guns. the northwest gun had a good lock that made good spark and caps were not required to fire it, i have seen several of these that were converted to use musket caps so what are we to say is period correct. one can justify anything if he thinks about it long enough. the northwest guns or fowler were easy to load and could be loaded on horseback by placing the balls in the cheek of the mouth and with a big or burned out touch hole by simply closing the frizzen pouring powder down the barrel and blowing a ball down the barrel it would fill the flash pan and it was ready to fire when rideing at full gallop along a buffalo then quickly swinging the gun down and firings before the bullet fell out . this is the explanation i was once given for having seen several smooth bores with bulges in the barrel--- yes it could have been caused by improper cleaning or a stuck bullet but i like my story better. PLEASE NOTE I AM NOT CONDONING THIS TYPE OF SHOOTING OR EVEN RECOMMENDING IT. you will have to go back to the common sense approach and, logical, feasible, or practical or could it even be done then you make your own determination.. all mountain men dreamed of owning a good rifle but it would cost almost a years wages in that time period for the best made. yes there were cheep rifles both in flint and in percussion. most true buckskinners will tell you that a flint rifle is the only one to have because "IF GOD WANTED YOU TO HAVE A PERCUSSION GUN THEN HE WOULD HAVE PAVED THE CREEK BANKS WITH PERCUSSION CAPS" a bit radical but again i would say it is the need and the ability to procure that dictated the firearm of choice for the fur trapper and mountain man.. Most mountain men preferred larger caliber rifles and many were half stock, but again it was personal preference. look at the killing range of a muzzle loader and you will see what i am trying to say. Yes there were several 40 caliber guns carried by the mountain men but they probably had more than one rifle. and it took a larger caliber or heavier bullet to kill at the extended distances required in the plains. In the eastern united states most game was killed at close range and were not the size of a buffalo or a bull elk or a grizzly bear. I have seen several small black bears killed with a 40 caliber but most had heavy barrels and took a heavy powder charge to get the killing energy needed. I have a friend that killed a small black with his 40 cal kentucky loaded with 90 gr of black. he said he had to place the bullet good and he still wondered if it was going to die lucky he was hunting out of a tree stand and the bear ran over a hundred yards and then collapsed. He said if he ever did it again he would go for the large bore gun over 50 cal. If you look at the so called plains rifles you will see a big commonality most were large bore and half stock with heavy barrels over one inch in dia. some were even 1 1/2 across the flats and some were tapered to about 1 in at the muzzle. since the rifle was carried on horseback most of the time the weight of the rifle didn't make that much difference. If you have ever carried a 12 pound rifle in the woods to hunt for several days it might change your mind, but their rifles were carried primarily on horseback so what's the problem with another 4 pounds in a gun if it met your needs and requirements.. five things were important to the average mountain man or fur trapper and kept close at hand. 1. a method to make fire. 2. a good knife 3. a good belt ax or tomahawk 4. some type of firearm to procure game 5. good common sense to utilize the above for survival in the wilderness. some would say you need shelter added to the above but if the mountain man or fur trapper had the above he could build his shelter, some would say he needed a horse, then i would say god gave him two feet and two hands he could survive. I have been a skinner for over 30 years and been fortunate to have been around some of the finest men that i believe ever lived. each were teachers in some form or made a important point. listen to those who know and use your god given common sense to disregard those who haven't been there and done that. Practical experience is one hell of a teacher and it doesn't take long to sort out what is real or plain old bull. REMEMBER: WITH COMMON SENSE A GOOD KNOWLEDGE BASE AND TWO HANDS AND A KNIFE A MOUNTAIN MAN CAN SURVIVE ANYWHERE. Sorry for the length of this epistle but have just spent several hours of my time reading over 40 msgs on how to roast a coffee bean and have come to the conclusion that our reality or common sense has left us IF YOU ARE NEW TO BUCKSKINNING then keep in the back of your mind IF IT WERE AVAILABLE AND THE MOUNTAIN MAN COULD HAVE USED IT HE WOULD HAVE, HE WASN'T STUPID, HE SURVIVED ON COMMON SENSE AND HIS EXPERIENCE. LEARN AND TEACH OTHERS AND BUCKSKINNING WILL ADD ANOTHER DEMENTION AND CREATE A WAY OF LIFE FOR YOU IN EVERYDAY LIVING.. If you get to here you will even see that i even said something about smoothbore barrels contact me offline for further discussion . My e-mail address is: hawknest4@juno.com sorry for the emotional frustration and verboseness of this epistle. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Sat, 02 May 1998 13:03:21 -0700 Frank writes: >Hello the List, > >Just a couple questions... >Is the smoothbore the gun most often carried by the western fur >trapper or eastern >woodsman and if so what time frames are we talking about? >What rifled barrel guns were carried by western mountain men? > >Thanks, Medicine Bear > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dennis Fisher Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker....... Date: 04 May 1998 15:15:01 -0700 Ted wrote: Of what kind of bones I don't know The bone pipes were trade items and we made back east in New England. There was a very good article in the Fur Trade Quarterly and Dean had a link to another on the web. The early "bone pipes" were made from the heavy lip portion of a sea shell (some kind of conch shell?). Later ones were actually made from the thick leg bones of cattle that were split into small pieces and then turned. Maybe someone can remember the web article and pass that along. It was a cottage business and the guy who designed the machine to drill them kept it a secret for many years as I recall. Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE Subject: Re: MtMan-List: wrong cavas Date: 04 May 1998 20:28:12 EDT In a message dated 98-05-03 23:37:00 EDT, you write: << the list made a wedge tent myself,but made the mistake of doing it myself andmade the mistake of using a canvas that does not have a tight enough of a weave. is there any thing that can be done to water proof it?? t. water seal doesnt help. guess there are things that should be left to the professionals. (tent smiths) :) frank :( ;( >> Try getting a drum or trash can just big enough to stuff the tent in and then pour in on top of it enough water seal to cover it up. Let it soak up all the seal it can and then hang to drip dry. (You can use the drum/can to catch the drippings to reuse) It doesn't work to just spray it on as i understand it. My buddy went through this same deal a couple years ago and it has help since. I am about to give this same method a shot myself. Longshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken YellowFeather" Subject: Re: Fwd: MtMan-List: The sail mfg. industry Date: 04 May 1998 19:31:31 -0500 Jon, Great tip on the fire starting materials. Powdered cedar and cedar bark from under cedar trees makes good fire starter too. The lower limbs that are dead can be used as a base as well. Burns hot and fast. YellowFeather ---------- : : Comments : : : : : As for materials it is hard for the common person to tell the difference : between hemp, cotton, linen, or polyester. I made a shirt a few years : back and hand sewed it ( big deal) and I held up the material against the : real stuff ( linen ) to polyester I couldn't tell the difference between : the two. The difference between the two was $15.00 a yd. We have a man : from the NW and he will look over your shirt real close. Stand in front : of you talking, while he is looking you over you feel like your fly is : open. So I make my stitches far enough apart for people to see it is hand : stitched. But what most of the nit pickers don't realize is that a self : respecting person back in the time frame wouldn't wear such poorly made : shirts . I don't think being so picky is important, now some of my : brother will come down on me for this but I can take it. This man said : how could I in good conscience stand in front of some school children and talk : to them with a machine sewn shirt. My come back kids in school aren't : that picky and wouldn't know the difference. That is how I do it but when he : sees me wearing a hand sewn shirt I make him happy but he don't know it : all. The point is, it don't make a lot of difference what shirts are made : of, modern tech does a good job of making fabric. As for hemp rope I understand it is easy to weaken when wet. It makes good fire starting material. I use it that is over 50 years old. and the only thing any better is paper wasp nest - the wasps. Later Jon T. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Vic Barkin Subject: MtMan-List: Lookin fer good history sites in Utah Date: 04 May 1998 17:31:17 -0700 Hey Dean and any other Utah Folks, Gota go to Provo on business later this month. any of you hail from there? looking for a historic site or two to spend some time at. B.Dawg Vic "Barkin Dawg" Barkin AMM #1534 Three Rivers Party "Aux aliments du pays!" Booshway of the Powderhorn Clan of Arizona Celebrating our 50th anniversary 1948-1998 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pat Quilter" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Waterproof Canvas Date: 04 May 1998 19:26:13 -0700 Re: Waterproof Canvas I have used a painter's drop cloth, untreated, with good results as a shelter. If well draped, without sagging, it will shed water, and will only drip slowly even when water puddles in sags. It is light and affordable. The usual trick of tying small rocks in the corners or where needed solves the problems of tying to stakes, hanging from limbs, etc. One supposes that original mountaineers, if having canvas at all, had plain cloth which they used for multiple purposes. Mainly you see references to draping extra blankets or skins over branches etc. The only drawback to untreated canvas is that you can't blithely wrap your bedroll in it and sleep out in the rain, but it works great as a shelter with minimal hassles. CAUTION: don't do like I did and hang your mocs from a ridge-rope to dry, it wicked the water down into them and they filled up overnight. Yr Ob't Sv't Pat Quilter ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken YellowFeather" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker....... Date: 04 May 1998 22:10:35 -0500 Dennis, The shell tubes you refer to are called columella. (sic?) They were made from large conch shells. They took the central portion and ground these pieces into the tubes and some were broken into smaller pieces and made into beads. I have several hundred of these from walking over plowed fields in search of arrow heads and such. Some beads and tubes will show evidence of being drilled as well. YellowFeather ---------- > From: Dennis Fisher > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker....... > Date: Monday, May 04, 1998 5:15 PM > > Ted wrote: > Of what kind of bones I don't know > > The bone pipes were trade items and we made back east in New England. > There was a very good article in the Fur Trade Quarterly and Dean had a > link to another on the web. The early "bone pipes" were made from the > heavy lip portion of a sea shell (some kind of conch shell?). Later > ones were actually made from the thick leg bones of cattle that were > split into small pieces and then turned. Maybe someone can remember the > web article and pass that along. It was a cottage business and the guy > who designed the machine to drill them kept it a secret for many years > as I recall. > > Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Smooth bore barrels Date: 04 May 1998 20:17:59 -0700 Hawk, Thanks, it helps to add "perspective" to "facts"! I appreciate the time you took to share your experience. I think a little research is due on my part to determine which flinter was both "period correct" and the most useful for my persona. Naturally it will have to meet one final test. It'll have to be "right purdy" too! I guess only I can determine that! Regards, Medicine Bear Michael Pierce wrote: > MEDICINE BEAR > > the information that i am about to provide you with is my personal > opinion and what i have absorbed from over 35 years buckskinning and from > many fond friends past and present that are true buckskinners and people > that were born over a 100 years too late. keep a open mind and accept > what you feel is correct to you. > > The smooth bore rifle was only one option of the weapons carried by the > western fur trapper or trader. use your common sense you will probably > agree with the next statement that i am about to make. > > THE EARLY TRAPPERS AND MOUNTAIN MEN CARRIED WEAPON THAT THEY WERE > COMFORTABLE WITH AND HAD THE ABILITY TO PURCHASE PRIOR TO LEAVING > CIVILIZATION. THERE BASIC NEEDS DICTATED THE FIREARM THAT THEY FELT WAS > REQUIRED. IT COULD HAVE BEEN A Smooth bore RIFLE, A FUSIL, A FOWLER, A > RIFLED GUN, A SINGLE OR DOUBLE BARREL SHOTGUN, EVEN A HANDGUN. THE > WEAPON WAS USED FOR DEFENSE AND FOR THE PROCUREMENT OF MEAT TO SUPPORT > THEIR EXISTENCE AND FOR BASIC SELF PROTECTION. > > each firearm has a special feature that they could rightly justify or > that they felt met their requirements. the neet part of a smooth bore is > that you didn't have to have lead to fire it. only powder FLINT OR CAP > and some type of wadding. lead or shot was wonderful but they could load > them with rocks, a wooden bullet or anything else that would fit down the > barrel if they were to run out of shot or ball. The northwest trade > gun was appropriate for period and many were altered by shortening the > barrel and the stocks, kind of like our sawed off shotguns of today. > many were repaired with raw hide to hold the barrel in the channel and > you will see many examples of this in original guns. the northwest gun > had a good lock that made good spark and caps were not required to fire > it, i have seen several of these that were converted to use musket caps > so what are we to say is period correct. one can justify anything if he > thinks about it long enough. the northwest guns or fowler were easy to > load and could be loaded on horseback by placing the balls in the cheek > of the mouth and with a big or burned out touch hole by simply closing > the frizzen pouring powder down the barrel and blowing a ball down the > barrel it would fill the flash pan and it was ready to fire when rideing > at full gallop along a buffalo then quickly swinging the gun down and > firings before the bullet fell out . this is the explanation i was once > given for having seen several smooth bores with bulges in the barrel--- > yes it could have been caused by improper cleaning or a stuck bullet but > i like my story better. PLEASE NOTE I AM NOT CONDONING THIS TYPE OF > SHOOTING OR EVEN RECOMMENDING IT. you will have to go back to the common > sense approach and, logical, feasible, or practical or could it even be > done then you make your own determination.. > > all mountain men dreamed of owning a good rifle but it would cost almost > a years wages in that time period for the best made. yes there were > cheep rifles both in flint and in percussion. most true buckskinners > will tell you that a flint rifle is the only one to have because "IF GOD > WANTED YOU TO HAVE A PERCUSSION GUN THEN HE WOULD HAVE PAVED THE CREEK > BANKS WITH PERCUSSION CAPS" a bit radical but again i would say it is > the need and the ability to procure that dictated the firearm of choice > for the fur trapper and mountain man.. > > Most mountain men preferred larger caliber rifles and many were half > stock, but again it was personal preference. look at the killing range > of a muzzle loader and you will see what i am trying to say. Yes there > were several 40 caliber guns carried by the mountain men but they > probably had more than one rifle. and it took a larger caliber or heavier > bullet to kill at the extended distances required in the plains. In the > eastern united states most game was killed at close range and were not > the size of a buffalo or a bull elk or a grizzly bear. I have seen > several small black bears killed with a 40 caliber but most had heavy > barrels and took a heavy powder charge to get the killing energy needed. > I have a friend that killed a small black with his 40 cal kentucky loaded > with 90 gr of black. he said he had to place the bullet good and he > still wondered if it was going to die lucky he was hunting out of a tree > stand and the bear ran over a hundred yards and then collapsed. He said > if he ever did it again he would go for the large bore gun over 50 cal. > > If you look at the so called plains rifles you will see a big > commonality most were large bore and half stock with heavy barrels over > one inch in dia. some were even 1 1/2 across the flats and some were > tapered to about 1 in at the muzzle. since the rifle was carried on > horseback most of the time the weight of the rifle didn't make that much > difference. If you have ever carried a 12 pound rifle in the woods to > hunt for several days it might change your mind, but their rifles were > carried primarily on horseback so what's the problem with another 4 > pounds in a gun if it met your needs and requirements.. > > five things were important to the average mountain man or fur trapper and > kept close at hand. > 1. a method to make fire. > 2. a good knife > 3. a good belt ax or tomahawk > 4. some type of firearm to procure game > 5. good common sense to utilize the above for survival in the wilderness. > > some would say you need shelter added to the above but if the mountain > man or fur trapper had the above he could build his shelter, some would > say he needed a horse, then i would say god gave him two feet and two > hands he could survive. I have been a skinner for over 30 years and been > fortunate to have been around some of the finest men that i believe ever > lived. each were teachers in some form or made a important point. > listen to those who know and use your god given common sense to disregard > those who haven't been there and done that. Practical experience is one > hell of a teacher and it doesn't take long to sort out what is real or > plain old bull. > > REMEMBER: WITH COMMON SENSE A GOOD KNOWLEDGE BASE AND TWO HANDS AND A > KNIFE A MOUNTAIN MAN CAN SURVIVE ANYWHERE. > > Sorry for the length of this epistle but have just spent several hours of > my time reading over 40 msgs on how to roast a coffee bean and have come > to the conclusion that our reality or common sense has left us IF YOU > ARE NEW TO BUCKSKINNING then keep in the back of your mind IF IT WERE > AVAILABLE AND THE MOUNTAIN MAN COULD HAVE USED IT HE WOULD HAVE, HE > WASN'T STUPID, HE SURVIVED ON COMMON SENSE AND HIS EXPERIENCE. > > LEARN AND TEACH OTHERS AND BUCKSKINNING WILL ADD ANOTHER DEMENTION AND > CREATE A WAY OF LIFE FOR YOU IN EVERYDAY LIVING.. > > If you get to here you will even see that i even said something about > smoothbore barrels contact me offline for further discussion . My > e-mail address is: hawknest4@juno.com > sorry for the emotional frustration and verboseness of this epistle. > > "Hawk" > Michael Pierce > 854 Glenfield Dr. > Palm Harbor, florida 34684 > 1-(813) 771-1815 > > On Sat, 02 May 1998 13:03:21 -0700 Frank > writes: > >Hello the List, > > > >Just a couple questions... > >Is the smoothbore the gun most often carried by the western fur > >trapper or eastern > >woodsman and if so what time frames are we talking about? > >What rifled barrel guns were carried by western mountain men? > > > >Thanks, Medicine Bear > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean Rudy Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker....... Date: 04 May 1998 21:55:44 -0600 At 10:10 PM 5/4/98 -0500, you wrote: >Dennis, >The shell tubes you refer to are called columella. (sic?) They were made >from large conch shells. They took the central portion and ground these >pieces into the tubes and some were broken into smaller pieces and made >into beads. I have several hundred of these from walking over plowed fields >in search of arrow heads and such. Some beads and tubes will show evidence >of being drilled as well. >YellowFeather > The best reference I know of on the wampum hair pipes can be found on-line, at: http://www.sil.si.edu/BAE/bulletin164/tptoc.htm Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KP MTN MAN Subject: Re: MtMan-List: The sail mfg. industry Date: 04 May 1998 23:53:20 EDT Hi. I am new to this list, but am appreciating what I am reading so far. Thanks for the comments above about authenticity as opposed to the the driving force behind doing what we do. I gree (for what that's worth) that the spirit and desire far outweigh the crossed t's and dotted i's. One of these days I hope to be able to get back into beading and sewing my own clothes. (took time off to start a family, and 2 kids and a college degree later, time is scarce) anyway, thanks again for the encouraging words. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pat Quilter" Subject: MtMan-List: Light Packs Date: 04 May 1998 21:41:14 -0700 Light Packs The recent subject of waterproofing canvas and the desire for light packs brings to hand the following report. On this last weekend of May 1-3, my good friend Burnt Spoon, who lives on the eastern slopes of Mt Palomar near San Diego, hosted a three-day Edibles Walk which was attending by four men, myself, Spoon, Tom Nichols "Firekeeper", and Dave Hood "Lost and Found". We all decided to lighten our packs as much as possible, motivated as much by our age and (lack of) condition as well as a test of our gear. Packs ranged from 25-30 lbs, and basically comprised a tarp, one blanket, coat, and minimal accoutrements. My pack was lightest at 25 lbs and comprised the following: A light pack frame, which I built primarily from a dried yucca stalk, about 3" thick, split into halves, with the rounded sides of the top and bottom crosspieces facing my back, and lashed with rawhide into an 18" by 24" frame. Dry yucca is like balsa wood, but ordinary, inch-thick branches could be used instead with similar strength. I lashed two crossbars, ordinary 3/4-inch peeled branches, between the upper and lower crossbars on the outside of the vertical frame for more tie-points. All crossbars, including top and bottom, extend several inches outwards so rope can be looped around the first end, around the first bundle, around the next crossbar end, around the second bundle, etc, without ever having to feed the rope through an opening. Easy to lash up and pull tight, using a 15-foot rope on each side, which is also useful around camp. The resulting frame rides on hip and shoulder with two deerhide shoulder straps. Up to three bundles can readily be tied to the four crossbars. To my immense gratification, it proved possible to lean back against the frame and bundles during rest stops without undue strain. Incidentally, I base this frame solely on common sense; I have yet to find any references to exact methods used by mountain men to carry their gear after losing their horses, other than "carrying our bundles on our backs". My first bundle was a canvas, about 7 x 7 feet, sufficient to encase my bedroll (I am 6" 4"), rolled up with the following possibles: a tin cup with lid, a tin billy (small and large mating cups), and a several pound canvas sack with the following items: horn spoon, a sewing kit, scrap of cloth, pince-nez glasses with tweezers (eyes don't see close like they used to), toothbrush, bum fodder, burning glass, couple of sticks of pitch pine, small sacks of coffee and oatmeal for breakfast, sack with dried mixed vegetables for dinner, sack with sugar, chocolate, and bottle of salt, a 7-oz cheese, and an 8-oz salami. (jerky instead of salami would be more period perhaps), and a small "quarter axe" about half the size of the usual camp hawk. This all rolled into a bundle about 20" long and 7" around. The reader will note that with two cups, I still have the luxury of fixing coffee and food at the same time, so I hardly felt deprived. I confess that this piece of canvas is from Panther Primitives and is commercially waterproofed. Spoon had a similar piece of home-made oil cloth (Spanish Red) which was several pounds heavier. I also have a painter's drop cloth, which I didn't bring, which makes a good shelter or dry weather bedroll cover. A possible alternative using strictly period material might be two lightweight canvas tarps, one for a rain shelter, and the other, kept dry, as a windbreak about the blankets. I have never had much luck staying warm in blankets only, as any wind seems to seep through and steal your warmth. A buffler robe is of course splendid but way heavy to carry, especially wet! The second bundle, of similar size, had my serape blanket, one of those hand-woven Bolivian jobs with two 30" panels stitched together and about 7 ft long, which I undid the stitching for a foot in the middle to stick the head through, and which sheds rain quite well, rolled around a sheepskin tunic (sew two shearling skins together, wool side in, leaving arm and head openings), which is easy as pie to make, provides a lot of warmth for the weight, and is less confining to sleep in than a capote, plus a wool hood to keep the head warm, and two thick socks, in reserve only in case the mocassins get dreadfully wet right before bedtime (if I can enter bed with dry warm mocs, fire toasted if necessary, my feet usually stay adequately warm). I rather prefer wearing mocassins without socks, aside from the question of whether mountain men would have had plenty of socks to wear out. While walking, the little rocks which get inside are a bit of a pain, but try walking in stream-soaked mocassins with socks on if you want your feet to feel like two wet sandbags. However, the other men preferred socks, and we did not have to wade any streams on this trip. Upon my person, I carried shooting pouch and horn, belt knife, belt pouch, fire starting pouch, and canteen, with a light smoothbore in hand. This whole rig felt WAY lighter than previous expeditions, where I used a pack basket and yielded to the temptation to "just throw in" quite a few more knick-knacks. We supplemented our diets with edible greens, and Spoon knew where to find clean water, but we all carried enough food for the three days. The first night, at 38-40 degrees under clear skies, challenged our non-acclimated bodies, but my restlessness was due more to failure to feather my nest sufficiently with leaves or the like, rather than lack of insulation. I have been able to make it through frosty nights with the covers noted above, but on a first night out, I could only get warm in certain positions which grew too uncomfortable to hold for long. A good bed of leaves or other cushioning would not only add to the insulation but permit of greater comfort. Our second night out involved some rain, which actually resulted in warmer temperatures. Having learned from the previous night, we all selected cushier areas of leaf duff and Spoon augmented his considerably by piling many inches of leaves between two deadfall logs (which kept him and his mattress in position). Our various waterproof tarps, combined with the best plant cover we could select, kept off the rain and we all slept much more cosy. We did not resort to the common practice in the old days of sleeping in pairs once the weather got truly cold, nor did we gather tons of wood and sleep around the fire, so there were still things we could have done to survive in much colder weather. I should add that being in California, I don't face truly cold weather too often. Although contrary to modern backpacker practice, I sleep in the same buckskins I wear, without long johns or the like, on the assumption that early travelers quickly wore out any undergarments, might have to leap up suddenly to check the horses, or repel attack, and the general notion that nobody much cared to shift out of clothing already warmed by use. The other men in the party had cloth shirts which they layered under buckskin or wool capotes to stay warm. I have never liked long johns, since besides the historical issue, you can't remove them during the heat of the day, and I sweat to death while walking. Clothing which can be put on or off as the need requires works better for me. As a city boy, I would never hold myself up as an example of physical hardiness, but I am also impressed by what you can just get used to after a few days out of doors. Anyway, we all enjoyed our outing, and the minor maneuvers we needed to do for comfort at night were well offset by having a manageable load on the shoulders by day. One can see methods of surviving with less, but this seemed like a usable compromise between convenience and minimalism. Submitted for your approval, I remain Yr Ob't Sv't Pat Quilter, "Horsecatcher". ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: TetonTod Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water proofing canvas Date: 05 May 1998 09:51:03 EDT A couple of other tips on waterproofing canvas using linseed oil and paint. harkening back to Mark bakers article on the subject in Muzzleloader and from his video, Be sure to use boiled linseed oil that has a neutral Ph. I'd get some test paper and check your solution otherwise the acidity will severley weaken your cloth and it will tear easily. Also when drying the oiled cloth, hang it in the shade. I came home one afternoon to check my newly oiled cloth that was hanging in the direct sunlight and the heat that built up nearly burned my hand. I swear that it was close to combustion from the heat developed between layers. I suspect this may have also weakened the material. I did an 8' x 8' cloth and it came out quite heavy. No way I'm carrying that around on my back and I'd have to appologize to a horse if I made it carry the thing. Does work nice as a trailer cover though. Todd Glover ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: Fwd: MtMan-List: FIRE STARTING MATERIAL Date: 05 May 1998 09:58:38 -0400 JON it hasn't been 6 months and they were discussing fire starting on the list. drop dean rudy a note and ask him to pull the writings on it and send to you. if i remember correctly someone posted almost a book on how and what to use in fire making. it is best to remember that depending on what area of the world or country different things make extremely good firemaking materials. I like the cedar bark because it is redily available to me but have used many different things. the hemp thread that is sold for macromay is good and very similar to the old tow i have used to clean my muzzleloader with ignites real well if you have a good punk to catch the spark. they use it in a lot of fire making contests that i have been in. the inner cedar bar is probably the best for me, but must be dry to get a fast fire, i normally carry a wad of it in my fire box, or the hemp macromay rope. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Mon, 4 May 1998 19:31:31 -0500 "Ken YellowFeather" writes: > Jon, >Great tip on the fire starting materials. Powdered cedar and cedar >bark >from under cedar trees makes good fire starter too. The lower limbs >that >are dead can be used as a base as well. Burns hot and fast. >YellowFeather > >---------- >From: JON P TOWNS >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Fw: Fwd: MtMan-List: The sail mfg. industry >Date: Thursday, April 30, 1998 9:09 PM > > > >: >: Comments : >: >: : >: As for materials it is hard for the common person to tell the >difference >: between hemp, cotton, linen, or polyester. I made a shirt a few >years >: back and hand sewed it ( big deal) and I held up the material >against the > >: real stuff ( linen ) to polyester I couldn't tell the difference >between >: the two. The difference between the two was $15.00 a yd. We have a >man >: from the NW and he will look over your shirt real close. Stand in >front >: of you talking, while he is looking you over you feel like your fly >is >: open. So I make my stitches far enough apart for people to see it >is >hand >: stitched. But what most of the nit pickers don't realize is that a >self > >: respecting person back in the time frame wouldn't wear such poorly >made >: shirts . I don't think being so picky is important, now some of >my >: brother will come down on me for this but I can take it. This man >said >: how could I in good conscience stand in front of some school >children and >talk >: to them with a machine sewn shirt. My come back kids in school >aren't >: that picky and wouldn't know the difference. That is how I do it >but >when he >: sees me wearing a hand sewn shirt I make him happy but he don't know >it >: all. The point is, it don't make a lot of difference what shirts >are >made >: of, modern tech does a good job of making fabric. > >As for hemp rope I understand it is easy to weaken when wet. It makes >good >fire starting material. >I use it that is over 50 years old. and the only thing any better is >paper >wasp nest - the wasps. > >Later Jon T. > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: roasting coffee beans (& tea!) Date: 05 May 1998 10:15:24 -0600 "JON P TOWNS" wrote: > I Think you are right about the tea but coffee was costly like today and > was not much to be had. I'll throw this out. I read something Mark Baker > wrote and he couldn't find any inventories that allowed him to carry brick > tea can any one tell me of any inventories that had Brick tea on them. I > think the HBC had some at one time, at Fort Vancouver. Angela help. I've never seen 'brick tea' anywhere in my reading of Canadian fur trade journals between 1774 & 1821. The types of tea most often seen are Hyson (green tea) and Bohea. I have no idea what Bohea tea was, but it cost much less than Hyson. I suspect that it was black tea, since I have found an HBC request for supplies to the Athabasca for the 1821-1822 outfit which, instead of asking for Hyson tea & Bohea tea like earlier orders, requests green tea & black tea. Coffee, Hyson tea, and chocolate were issued as rations to HBC clerks & partners in 1806. Tea seems to have been a more popular drink than coffee in the Canadian fur trade, but coffee was also drunk. Fort George (Astoria) had 4 lbs Souchong tea, 4 1-lb canisters of tea, and 2 1-lb canisters of tea stolen by Natives, along with a bunch of other stuff, in 1814 (Henry & Coues, 2:823). Alexander Henry the Younger also mentions drinking coffee with molasses and goat's milk at Fort George (Astoria). Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Light Packs Date: 05 May 1998 12:17:07 -0400 PAT: good trip report sounds like it was a true learning experience for you. It takes a few trips into the woods with only the minimum to learn to improvise and have creature comforts that you don't realize are there. I went thru and instructed in survival training at ft bragg, and mountain, desert training at Edwards AFB and you will be surprised each time you go out you will learn something new and also learn a lot about yourself. It really helps if you have someone who has been there and done that to assist you and give you some basic guidance. Basic Common sense and learning to observe your enviroment makes the woods/ or desert a storehouse for supporting you and allowing you to take less and less with you each time and for longer periods of time. in survival school we were given a chicken or rabbet, 50 ft of T-50 cord and a knife and what ever we had in our pockets at the time they decided to take us out for our 7 day fun/play period. I gave them back their rabit and got my own meat, he and i became good friends after 7 days and nights, helped to keep me warm at night, and didn't talk back much. learn to observe nature and nature will take care of you. learn the basics, food, water, shelter, improvising to obtain food, and your basic knowledge of the enviroment you are in. common sense and keeping a cool head if emergancies arise will save your life and those around you if you are fortunate to have others with you. "KEEP ON TRECKING AND LEARNING" "WELL DONE" "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken McWilliams" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker....... Date: 05 May 1998 13:55:12 -0500 Howdy Dean, I find it rather amusing that they give the credit for inventing so called hair pipes to a white man. The native Americans were making these and the beads at least a thousand years before the Campbells ever made their first one! I didn't think that Dennis was talking about wampum, I thought he was talking about hairpipes made by the indians of that time. I noticed that they talk about the skill needed to make them with the machinery at hand, how about the skill that was needed to make one with "primitive" tools? I am not disputing the fact that most of the shell artifacts that are found were made by commercial means, just pointing out that this was not an invention by Mr. Campbell. I have both types of "shell" artifacts in my collection, but like the "real ones" best. Your Obt. Servant, Ken YellowFeather ---------- > From: Dean Rudy > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker....... > Date: Monday, May 04, 1998 10:55 PM > > At 10:10 PM 5/4/98 -0500, you wrote: > >Dennis, > >The shell tubes you refer to are called columella. (sic?) They were made > >from large conch shells. They took the central portion and ground these > >pieces into the tubes and some were broken into smaller pieces and made > >into beads. I have several hundred of these from walking over plowed fields > >in search of arrow heads and such. Some beads and tubes will show evidence > >of being drilled as well. > >YellowFeather > > > > The best reference I know of on the wampum hair pipes can be found on-line, > at: > > http://www.sil.si.edu/BAE/bulletin164/tptoc.htm > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com > Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dale Nelson Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker....... Date: 05 May 1998 19:42:15 -0700 Ken McWilliams wrote: > > Howdy Dean, > I find it rather amusing that they give the credit for inventing so called > hair pipes to a white man. The native Americans were making these and the > beads at least a thousand years before I was under the impression that they are called hare pipes on account of they were made out of rabbit bones. This was told me by a bead collector, I have no source, but it might be interesting to look into. Dale Nelson dnelson@wizzards.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "P.D. Amschler" Subject: MtMan-List: Return to the cloth Date: 06 May 1998 00:39:18 -0700 One more Question, Trying to put together an acceptable out fit for the 1800 - 1840's AMM garb I have seen many posts on type of cloth. Everything from canvas for pants and tents to linen. Two extremes. Here is my problem. My wife and I went out tonight and found a plethera of differnt Calico prints, muslin, and linen. The question is what print is acceptable? I know that blue&white, red&white black&red or white. Small squares 1/4 - 1/2" small dots, flowers (small ones)? I have been to a lot of vous that have all kinds of non-normal prints so I am really in need of some advice. I am using a sweat pant pattern for my pants with out the elastic or pockets and canvas that has been washed at least 3 times to soften it up (got this tip from our cloth lady) on the advice of a AMM member but as for my shirt what pattern of calico? After reading many of the posts on what is right and wrong I have come to see that someone who is starting out to become a trapper in the 1800's probable bought his first set of clothing in a city or maybe a large trading post. This could have been sewn on an old machine or by hand. I am very aware of the styles of clothing in the sailing ships and if that were to carry over to the mountians it would add up. Not all mountain men were born in the mountains they came from the cities or the sea. I am just trying to put every thing in perspective. Thanks in advance for the advice Paul Amschler amschlers@mailcity.com Get your FREE, private e-mail account at http://www.mailcity.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dennis Fisher Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker....... Date: 06 May 1998 07:12:43 -0700 I have never seen any hairpipes in museums that were actually made by Indians. I would suspect that they could and probably did make some. My question is were could I see some early examples of hairpipes of Indian manufacture and how far back do they date? Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brian Dokter" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Return to the cloth Date: 06 May 1998 10:38:48 EST5EDT > One more Question, > >Trying to put together an acceptable out fit for the 1800 - 1840's AMM garb I have seen many posts on type of cloth. Everything from canvas for pants and tents to linen. Two extremes. Here is my pro> I am using a sweat pant pattern for my pants with ou the elastic or pockets and canvas that has been washed at least 3 times to soften it up (got this tip from our cloth lady) on the advice of a AM> > After reading many of the posts on what is right and wrong I have come to see that someone who is starting out to become a trapper in the 1800's probable bought his first set of clothing in a city o> Thanks in advance for the advice > I ran across a site that specializes in historical fabric. I visited her store in a little town called Amsterdam in Montana. Amazing. She has a wall of colonial fabric, pre-civil war fabric, post civil war, etc. Check out http://www.patchworks-usa.com/ Brian K. Dokter, CHMM bdokter@hotmail.com Calvin College "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies." -- Nietzsche ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Looking for mountain men info in St. Louis for trip Date: 06 May 1998 17:16:52 EDT In a message dated 98-04-28 23:38:35 EDT, Kat wrote: << Emma, I am here just outside St. Louis. I suggest the Missouri Historical Society Library on Skinker Blvd. in St. Louis (right near Forest Park). I also suggest the bookstore at (under) the Gateway Arch. St. Genevive is the site of the first permanent French settlement. There is also some of Old Town St. Charles (the first capitol) left. Depending on the weekend, I would suggest a day trip to Ft. de Chartres (about 3 hours away). This is a F&I period fort. There are also several 'vous within a few hours. Let me know when you are coming, and I'll see if there is anything special going on. >> Emma, These sights are well worth checking out. The Fort is a little closer than kat describes though. I live on the south end of town, and can be down at the fort in about an hour. Contact me off list if you need directions to any of these places. Longshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Allen Chronister Date: 06 May 1998 17:12:51 +0100 Re: Recent messages on hairpipes,chokers Native people in n. America made divers beads of shell for centuries, at least. The "columella" beads that someone mentioned were made from the central column of a conch shell (hence the name) which, when the rest of the shell was broken away, was roughly a cylinder that could be broken or cut into beads and then drilled. These are not hairpipes. I have never seen a native-made hairpipe that anyone would recognize as being a hairpipe--the long, thin bead which is thicher in the middle and tapers toward both ends. Maybe a few were made, but when most people use the term "hairpipe" (and certainly when it was used in the 19th century American trade) they refer to the long double tapered beads that we all know. Hairpipes were first commercially made probably sometime in the late 1700s. Lewis & Clark carried a few of them among their trade goods. At that time the commercial hairpipes were all shell. They were manufactured commercially in the northeast out of the thick outer lips of conch shells, not the inner column. Shell pipes were rather delicate and breakable and were expensive. However, just like with the short shell beads that were woven into "wampum belts", native people recognized a good thing when they saw it and the commercial products quickly dislaced most native-manufactutred similar products. Original Shell hairpipes are very rare today. At least by the later 19th century the shell bead industry was centered in Bergen Co NJ with the Campbell family. They used conch shells that were jettisoned ballast from sailing ships. Other shell items were also made including conchos (then called "moons"), flat bone disc beads, and straight-sided tubular bone beads of various lengths. All these items were generically called "wampum" in refernce to the shell material. Some time ca. 1840 the first hairipes were made of bone. Many people will recall Dr Ewers' classic "Hairpipes in Plains Indian Adornment" in which he traces the "invention" of bone pipes to the late 19th century. Since he published that work, however, we have discovered conclusive proof in the AFC commercial records that both bone and wampum hairpipes were available in the early 1840s. I have found invoices that list bone and wampum hairpipes side by side. I was able to discuss this with Dr Ewers before he died and he acknowledged that this information had been unknown to him and that it pushed back the introduction of bone pipes. Please note,however, that before about 1870 the vast, vast majority of hairpipes were shell. Only until the last quarter of the 19th century were bone pipes made in significant numbers. They were cheaper and more sturdy and the familiar necklaces and "breastplates" of hundreds of pipes resulted. The bone used was bovine. Hairpipe bead chokers were very scarce on the Plains before the very late 19th century at the earliest. I know of no evidence of any hairpipe chokers being worn before about 1850. There is one Catlin portrait of a Comanche man that is often pointed to as being a pipe choker, but the "bones" are straight tubes, not tapered hairipes, and they look to be 4 to 5" long. The earliest chokers that were widely worn by Plains people (say 1850 (?) to 1880) were either dentailum shell or glass tube beads. Dentalia was all the rage until late in the century. Clearly none of these things--whatever the material--would have offered any meaningful "armor" protection and there is no evidence other than 20th century romanticism that these pieces of jewelry had any such function. This is all certain to ruffle feathers, I usually do, but facts are facts. Allen Chronister ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123 Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker....... Date: 07 May 1998 00:13:10 EDT Allen, thanks for the information. I was going to refer everyone to Dr. Ewers article, which is the same one Dean referneced earlier. Here's my two cents based on that articel. You additional info regarding AFC records still puts chokers out of the mountain man era in my mind. Dr. John C. Ewers has some enlightening information that may burst the bubble of those portraying mountain men who like to wear chokers. If you are all sitting down... Dr. Ewers published his paper, "Hair Pipes in Plains Indian Adornment; A Study in Indian and White Ingenuity," through the Smithsonian Institution, Bureau of American Ethnology, Anthropological Papers, No. 50, in 1957. In that paper, he says, on page 57: "Catlin alone of the artists of the precamera period illustrated still another use of hair pipes. His portrait of Tee-too-sah (better known as Dohasan), first chief of the Kiowa, painted in 1834, shows him wearing a close-fitting choker of four rows of horizontal hair pipes. The hair pipe choker was also worn by The Sea, a Sauk and Fox man, who posed for his photograph in 1869. I have seen no other illustrations of this ornament of hair pipes depicting its use prior to 1880." Granted, this is among Indians, but it seems to reason that if mountain men were wearing chokers, they probably picked up the fashion from Indians. I suppose one could argue that the mountain man introduced the idea to Indians, but I'd want to see the reference on that one. According to Ewers, chokers weren't common until after 1880. Let's look at a few trade inventories to see what kind of numbers they reveal. Same reference, page 48 - Lachapelle, 10-17-1831 15 pairs hair pipes Lafleur, 10-31-1831 11 pairs " " Campbell, 10-?-1832 17 pairs " " Cerre, 11-?-1832 10 pairs " " Fort Clark 11-23-1832 45 hair pipes Most of these were 5" to 6" long and were sold as adornments for the hair (hence the name hair pipes) or for ear ornaments. Bone replaced shell as the material of construction around 1880 and this may well explain the increase in their use after that date as the items were cheaper when made from this material. Ewers states, page 52, "In view of the great number of contemporary field descriptions of the Plains Indians written by explorers, travelers, fur traders, and Government officials prior to 1880, it is really remarkable how meager is the information on Indian use of hair pipes." For me, this rules out the wearing of a choker in a mountain man portrayal. Sure, you could argue that tribes other than Plains Indians MIGHT have worn them, but I'd want to see the documentation before I accepted it into my garb. Jim Hardee AMM #1676 P.O. Box 1228 Quincy, CA 95971 (530)283-4566 (H) (530)283-3330 (W) (530)283-5171 FAX Casapy123@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean Rudy Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker....... Date: 06 May 1998 23:33:29 -0600 At 12:13 AM 5/7/98 -0400, Jim Hardee wrote: >....."Catlin alone of the artists of the precamera period illustrated still another >use of hair pipes.=A0 His portrait of Tee-too-sah (better known as= Dohasan), >first chief of the Kiowa, painted in 1834, shows him wearing a= close-fitting >choker of four rows of horizontal hair pipes.=A0 ....... Sounds like some good info coming out on this perennial topic.=A0 About the= only thing I can add is to point out the portrait mentioned in the quote above is at the Smithsonian's website at=20 http://www.sil.si.edu/BAE/bulletin164/plate23a.htm if anybody wants to see it for themselves.=A0 This may be the same portrait Allen was thinking of ?. There's a portrait by Karl Bodmer that shows what _might_ be hair pipes worn choker-fashion.=A0 It was painted in March 1834 and is of a Mandan man at= Ft. Clark.=A0 I scanned in a detail and posted it at http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/gif/bodmer/choker.jpg Take a look -- What do y'all think?? Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker....... Date: 07 May 1998 05:41:57 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD797A.D97C1280 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by pimout2-int.prodigy.net id IAA84988 Now that Dean and others have proved that chokers were worn by the Indian= s in the 1830's does this mean that Mt men worn them. In my opinion I don'= t think very many worn them because my observation shows that most men in that time frame didn't much jewelry, in the cities and I think it ran ove= r into the mountains there could have been one or two here and there that would have but I don't think it was the norm. I think it would have had the same opinions as it was when I grew up in the 50's about men wearing jewelry. Now I wear jewelry two ear rings and a wedding ring. But I wouldn't have wore a ear ring back in 1958, no way I would have been a point of ridicule. But after 3 children and 3 grand babies I don't give = a poop any more. =20 ---------- At 12:13 AM 5/7/98 -0400, Jim Hardee wrote: >....."Catlin alone of the artists of the precamera period illustrated still another >use of hair pipes.=A0 His portrait of Tee-too-sah (better known as Dohas= an), >first chief of the Kiowa, painted in 1834, shows him wearing a close-fitting >choker of four rows of horizontal hair pipes.=A0 ....... Sounds like some good info coming out on this perennial topic.=A0 About t= he only thing I can add is to point out the portrait mentioned in the quote above is at the Smithsonian's website at=20 http://www.sil.si.edu/BAE/bulletin164/plate23a.htm if anybody wants to see it for themselves.=A0 This may be the same portra= it Allen was thinking of ?. There's a portrait by Karl Bodmer that shows what _might_ be hair pipes worn choker-fashion.=A0 It was painted in March 1834 and is of a Mandan man at= Ft. Clark.=A0 I scanned in a detail and posted it at http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/gif/bodmer/choker.jpg Take a look -- What do y'all think?? Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html ---------- ------=_NextPart_000_01BD797A.D97C1280 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Now that Dean and others have proved = that chokers were worn by the Indians in the 1830's does this mean that = Mt men worn them.  In my opinion I don't think very many worn them = because my observation shows that most men in that time frame didn't = much jewelry, in the cities and I think it ran over into the mountains = there could have been one or two here and there that would have but I = don't think it was the norm.  I think it would have had the same = opinions as it was when I grew up in the 50's about men wearing jewelry. =  Now I wear jewelry two ear rings and a wedding ring.  But I = wouldn't have wore a ear ring back in 1958,  no way I would have = been a point of ridicule.  But after 3 children and 3 grand babies = I don't give a poop any more. =            
----------
From: Dean Rudy <drudy@xmission.com>
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker.......
Date: = Wednesday, May 06, 1998 10:33 PM

At 12:13 AM 5/7/98 -0400, Jim = Hardee wrote:
>....."Catlin alone of the artists of the = precamera period illustrated still
another
>use of hair = pipes.=A0 His portrait of Tee-too-sah (better known as = Dohasan),
>first chief of the Kiowa, painted in 1834, shows him = wearing a close-fitting
>choker of four rows of horizontal hair = pipes.=A0 .......

Sounds like some good info coming out on this = perennial topic.=A0 About the only
thing I can add is to point out = the portrait mentioned in the quote above
is at
the Smithsonian's = website at
http://www.sil.si.edu/BAE/bulletin164/plate23a.htm
if anybody wants to see it for = themselves.=A0 This may be the same portrait
Allen
was thinking of = ?.

There's a portrait by Karl Bodmer that shows what _might_ be = hair pipes worn
choker-fashion.=A0 It was painted in March 1834 and = is of a Mandan man at Ft.
Clark.=A0 I scanned in a detail and posted = it at
http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/gif/bodmer/chok= er.jpg
Take a look -- What do y'all = think??



--------------------------------------------------= -------------------
Dean Rudy   AMM#1530 =     Email: drudy@xmission.com
Park City, Utah =          WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html

----------

------=_NextPart_000_01BD797A.D97C1280-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dennis Fisher Subject: MtMan-List: Re: chokers Date: 07 May 1998 07:12:15 -0700 Allen, Thanks for taking the time to post your comments on the choker discussion. When I said earlier that I had never seen any hairpipes or bonepipes of native manufacture I was refering to both the tapered and straight beads. I don't believe that the Indians had the means of drilling a 2 to 4 inch hole (a very small hole at that) through a 1\4 inch cylinder of bone or shell. Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gail Carbiener" Subject: MtMan-List: Choker....... Date: 07 May 1998 08:21:58 -0700 To all: Really appreciate all the discussion about chokers. I guess I can leave my cheap, unconfortable choker at home when doing living history of a 1825 Hudson's Bay Company freeman! Gail ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: chokers Date: 07 May 1998 15:09:25 -0400 did not require drilling. a small section of shinbone or wing bone could be used and the center punched out with a piece of cane or a stick. then strung on horse hair or senu as a charm or hair decoration. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Thu, 07 May 1998 07:12:15 -0700 Dennis Fisher writes: >Allen, > > Thanks for taking the time to post your comments on the choker >discussion. When I said earlier that I had never seen any hairpipes >or >bonepipes of native manufacture I was refering to both the tapered and >straight beads. I don't believe that the Indians had the means of >drilling a 2 to 4 inch hole (a very small hole at that) through a 1\4 >inch cylinder of bone or shell. > > Dennis > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken YellowFeather" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: chokers Date: 07 May 1998 15:31:37 -0500 Dennis, you wrote, "don't believe indians had the means of drilling a 2 to 4 inch hole"........ Believe it or not they did, and I have the tubes and pieces to prove it! They did some rather amazing things with primitive tools. Have one that is 3 15/16 inches and the smallest dia. is about 3/32 inch. BTW...I have not been able to duplicate this yet. About 1/8 is the smallest I have been able to do. I used to make replicas for the Institute of Texan Cultures and tried to copy one of the longer tubes w/o success. Your Obt. Servant, YellowFeather ---------- > From: Dennis Fisher > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Re: chokers > Date: Thursday, May 07, 1998 9:12 AM > > Allen, > > Thanks for taking the time to post your comments on the choker > discussion. When I said earlier that I had never seen any hairpipes or > bonepipes of native manufacture I was refering to both the tapered and > straight beads. I don't believe that the Indians had the means of > drilling a 2 to 4 inch hole (a very small hole at that) through a 1\4 > inch cylinder of bone or shell. > > Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken YellowFeather" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker....... Date: 07 May 1998 15:45:55 -0500 Howdy Dean, In reference to the painting....It looks more like he used wing bones fro= m a large bird to me. My guess is they might be eagle, and his "choker" is probably ceremonial. Maybe even for the sun dance. Perhaps if we could se= e his back, he might have worn this "choker" after doing his sun dance vows= ? My scars are on my chest, but I do not know how the Kiowa did the sun dance. Just my humble opinion. Your Obt. Servant, YellowFeather ---------- At 12:13 AM 5/7/98 -0400, Jim Hardee wrote: >....."Catlin alone of the artists of the precamera period illustrated still another >use of hair pipes.=A0 His portrait of Tee-too-sah (better known as Dohas= an), >first chief of the Kiowa, painted in 1834, shows him wearing a close-fitting >choker of four rows of horizontal hair pipes.=A0 ....... Sounds like some good info coming out on this perennial topic.=A0 About t= he only thing I can add is to point out the portrait mentioned in the quote above is at the Smithsonian's website at=20 http://www.sil.si.edu/BAE/bulletin164/plate23a.htm if anybody wants to see it for themselves.=A0 This may be the same portra= it Allen was thinking of ?. There's a portrait by Karl Bodmer that shows what _might_ be hair pipes worn choker-fashion.=A0 It was painted in March 1834 and is of a Mandan man at= Ft. Clark.=A0 I scanned in a detail and posted it at http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/gif/bodmer/choker.jpg Take a look -- What do y'all think?? Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html ---------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Colleen" Subject: MtMan-List: reenacting forum Date: 07 May 1998 16:06:47 -0500 Good Afternoon List! I found a site just this morning where forums can be created for free, ain't technology wonderful! Anyway, I am attempting to create a reenactor's forum. The site is: http://www.customforum.com/reenact Hopefully, we can get a forum or chat room going. Any suggestions would be helpful! Please feel free to drop by. Thanks! Colleen (Aknhrt) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken YellowFeather" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: chokers Date: 07 May 1998 16:06:08 -0500 Hawk, you can do that with bone, but you have to drill the shell! YMOS, YellowFeather ---------- > From: Michael Pierce > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Re: chokers > Date: Thursday, May 07, 1998 2:09 PM > > did not require drilling. a small section of shinbone or wing bone > could be used and the center punched out with a piece of cane or a stick. > then strung on horse hair or senu as a charm or hair decoration. > > "Hawk" > Michael Pierce > 854 Glenfield Dr. > Palm Harbor, florida 34684 > 1-(813) 771-1815 > > On Thu, 07 May 1998 07:12:15 -0700 Dennis Fisher > writes: > >Allen, > > > > Thanks for taking the time to post your comments on the choker > >discussion. When I said earlier that I had never seen any hairpipes > >or > >bonepipes of native manufacture I was refering to both the tapered and > >straight beads. I don't believe that the Indians had the means of > >drilling a 2 to 4 inch hole (a very small hole at that) through a 1\4 > >inch cylinder of bone or shell. > > > > Dennis > > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "yellow rose/pendleton" Subject: MtMan-List: chokers and calico Date: 07 May 1998 16:57:03 -0500 Paul, It sounds to me like you are just getting started buckining. I've been there done that,so for what it's worth here's some advice. Spend a lot of time and some money on good quality books and other research material so you can figure out for yourself exactly what is and is'nt right for you. By that I mean, do you want to follow the idea of " If they'd had, they'd have used it" , or take the time to figure out what was in common use. Either approach is fine, On calico cloth: Yes calico was available, but it was very scarce and very expensive during the fur trade period. A good reference on calico is CALICO CHRONICLE BY BETTY J. MILLS copies of this are pretty hard to get. You might try your local library. The book deals with calico material on the Texas frontier from 1830 to 1910. On chokers: It is my understanding that bone hairpipes were a byproduct of the button industry. They to were very scarce and very expensive until the later part of the 1800's when the equipment became available to mass produce such items. I seem to recall that LEWIS and CLARK carried only a few hairpipes, and gave them only to the highest chiefs and then only one each. Pendleton ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "yellow rose/pendleton" Subject: MtMan-List: manton rifles Date: 07 May 1998 17:33:47 -0500 I have a buddy who is interested in building a flintlock manton rifle, but is not having much luck finding info on them. One problem is MANTON was an ENGLISH gunbuilder. I had the same problem a few years ago researching a BARNETT trade rifle. There is all kinds of info on AMERICAN gunbuilders, but very little on the BRITISH guys. I'm hoping with the help of this new fangle machine some of you folks can lend a hand. Pendleton ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pat Quilter" Subject: MtMan-List: Re Manton Rifles Date: 07 May 1998 18:03:06 -0700 Re Manton Rifles There IS a book out on Joe Manton, I've seen in in my friend's hands (a gunsmith), but unless its called something obvious like the "Guns of Joe Manton" I don't know what to say. It was mostly fowlers and pistols rather than rifles however -- no mention of the 62 caliber Manton rifle that Drummond Stewart mentions in Edward Warren. Lots of good lock details however. Try Amazon or other internet bookstore? Pat Quilter ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: chokers and calico and (blue beads) Date: 07 May 1998 20:46:43 -0400 DARN GOOD INPUT ON THE CALICO, AND TO EXPAND THE DISCUSSON---- lewis and clark also had some beautiful blue beads and on one ocasion traded one for a horse or the like if i remember corectly. I know a person who has one of the blue beads suposively from the lewis and clark expi. and it is beautiful. He promised to will it to me if he ever dies. probably be like me and live too long. I gave him my goose egg chevrons necklace with 6 chevrons on it as a gift one christmas because he had admired them for over 10 years and I hated the big heavy things. the bead collector that gave him the blue bead saw them and told him what they were and now he won't even let me look at them afraid i might want them back. I won them at a shooting match many years ago as first prize. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Thu, 7 May 1998 16:57:03 -0500 "yellow rose/pendleton" writes: >Paul, >It sounds to me like you are just getting started buckining. I've been >there done that,so for what it's worth here's some advice. Spend a lot >of >time and some money on good quality books and other research material >so >you can figure out for yourself exactly what is and is'nt right for >you. By >that I mean, do you want to follow the idea of " If they'd had, they'd >have >used it" , or take the time to figure out what was in common use. >Either >approach is fine, On calico cloth: Yes calico was available, but it >was >very scarce and very expensive during the fur trade period. A good >reference on calico is CALICO CHRONICLE BY BETTY J. MILLS copies of >this >are pretty hard to get. You might try your local library. The book >deals >with calico material on the Texas frontier from 1830 to 1910. On >chokers: >It is my understanding that bone hairpipes were a byproduct of the >button >industry. They to were very scarce and very expensive until the later >part >of the 1800's when the equipment became available to mass produce such >items. I seem to recall that LEWIS and CLARK carried only a few >hairpipes, >and gave them only to the highest chiefs and then only one each. > >Pendleton > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: manton rifles Date: 07 May 1998 21:35:42 -0400 MANTON PRIMARILY MADE SHOTGUNS AND DID MANUFACTURE LOCKS THAT WERE SOLD AND SEVERAL ENGLISH MAKERS USED THEM ON THEIR SPORTING RIFLES. i HAVE ONLY SEEN ONE MANTON RIFLE AND IT WAS A SPORTING TYPE OF RIFLE WITH WHAT LOOKED LIKE A SHOTGUN BUTT PLATE BUT HAD A RIFLED BARREL. references 1. the great guns by Harold peterson pages 72,77,121,124,132-- no pictures of rifles Note pace 120 shows a shotgun that looked like the sporting rifle i worked on except it is double barreled and a smooth bore. Manton primarily made shotguns and did manufacture locks that were sold to several english makers that made sporting rifles I have seen only one manton rifle. it had a buttplate that is similar to a shotgun and a scroll triggerguard like a hawkins rifle. It had a large bore of about 62 cal and the barrel was hex with wedding bands and tapered round to the muzzle. the breech end of the rifle was about 1 1/8 thich and the muzzle of the rifle was about 1.00. It basically looked like a single barrel shotgun with a under rib and with a rifled barrel. It was a good shooter and it felt extremely well when brought to the sholder. I made a mainspring for it and had a heck of a time getting it strong enough to feel right. there was a fly in the lock and the spring had a styrrup and pin that connected to the spring. from the tumbler. it was a very fast lock. Joe or joseph manton owned a shooting gallery and made a lot of pistols for prominent english noblemen and prominent dueelers. You will find a lot that there mostly flint. most of the shotguns that were marked manton also had the same markings on the top flat between the two barrels and also said London Fine Twist. I have a manton double barrel shotgun in percussion -- many of these were made and shipped to the colonies. These are primarily procussion-- find a manton double flint and you are now looking at a bunch of bucks. I know of two of then and have tried to buy them on ocasions but couldnt justify the price conceived by the owners. darn near the price of a purdy double. I will contact the guy that i fixes it for and see if he has any pictures and will send a note offline if i can get them or if he will let me have them. DARN NEAR EVER MANTON I HAVE SEEN IS EATHER A SHOTGUN OR A PISTOL. RIFLES WILL BE A HARD ONE TO FIND. CONTACT LEE GOOD @ dAVIS MUSEUM IN CLARIMORE OKLAHOMA AND SEE WHAT INFO HE HAS AVAILABLE. HE USTO WRITE A COLUMN FOR MUZZLEBLAST MAGAZINE. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Thu, 7 May 1998 17:33:47 -0500 "yellow rose/pendleton" writes: >I have a buddy who is interested in building a flintlock manton rifle, >but >is not having much luck finding info on them. One problem is MANTON >was an >ENGLISH gunbuilder. I had the same problem a few years ago researching >a >BARNETT trade rifle. There is all kinds of info on AMERICAN >gunbuilders, >but very little on the BRITISH guys. I'm hoping with the help of this >new >fangle machine some of you folks can lend a hand. > >Pendleton > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken YellowFeather" Subject: Fw: Fwd: MtMan-List: Choker....... Date: 07 May 1998 21:29:33 -0500 Hello the list, > > Thought that some of you might be interested in a discussion between Hawk > and I on chokers. We ain't poking fun at anyone, just thought the whole > thing was a little funny in places. Just shows that we don't have to take > things so seriously to learn! > YellowFeather > > > > From: Michael Pierce > > To: rebelfreehold@worldnet.att.net > > Subject: Re: Fwd: MtMan-List: Choker....... > > Date: Tuesday, May 05, 1998 11:46 PM > > > > KEN > > TELL HIM THAT THEY ARE CALLED HAIR PIPES BECAUSE THEY ARE HAIR TODAY AND > > GONE TOMORROW. THAT'S MAKES JUST ABOUT AS MUCH SENSE. > >YF> Dennis, that bead collector must have gotten hold of Hawk's lizard > juice, or else he was pulling your leg! Have a good laugh on us and > remember that all of us have had our leg pulled at least once. > > > Hawk>The explanation that i was given for calling them hair pipes is that > when > > they were first found by archeologist and grave robbers as such many of > > the old original breast plates were strung on woven horse hair and senu > > mix with the horse hair giving a certain amount of color to the design > > and many has hair locks at the leather spacers or joiners, the tubes were > > bone of small animals or deer bleached and strung thru the hole in the > > center and slightly tapered on each end to give depth to the design. the > > natural hole was similar to a small pipe-- when combining and looking > > for a name someone in their ultimate wisdom combined the two words and > > hence the name "HAIR PIPES" with the author unknown. > > > > Mine is only one of many possible explanations but if the darn easter > > bunny would send me a big box of hair pipes i would truly appreciate it > > cause i sure wouldn't make chokers from them. primary purpose was > > as a form of armor against a slashing knife or tomahawks down the front > > of the individual. in the late 1800 beads were added to give color to > > the design many used brass beads. all of the early ones that had beads > > used shell beads, no glass or metal. the color was from the colored > > horse hair used to string them on if no beads were used. There is several > > good examples of this at smithsonian and a couple of other museums that > > specializes in indian and prehistoric artifacts. > > > > You will note that i have not stated that hair pipes are or are not fur > > trade time period or not. I would project that they were around in some > > form from the creation of man as a hunter or gatherer to our present day > > YF> My own opinion is that chokers are not correct period wear for > mountain men. One picture in a museum that shows a "choker" of materials > that can not be properly identified is not proof enough for me. Of course > you know what they say about opinions. > > > > Hawk>PICK YOUR POISON----You already know my opinion on chokers and why > they > > are called chokers. YF> ( I have to agree with Hawk on this point. I can > not see an indian wearing something into battle that would give his enemy > an advantage. I used to wear one until I was chasing a wounded groundhog > through some brush. I caught it on a limb or something and it jerked me off > my feet. I have not worn one since except for special ceremonies.) > You can post this if you wish, Im just having fun in > > my ignorance and not knowing the real truth about all those easter > > bunnies that have given their life for some fool to wear around their > > neck. > > > > Hawk>"if you are creative you can justify anything in your own mind and > in the > > mind of others" YF> Amen! > > > > Hawk>"Makes me want to take up drinking as a full time sport in place of > > skinning" YF> I keep warning you about that lizard juice! > > > > "Hawk" > > Michael Pierce > > 854 Glenfield Dr. > > Palm Harbor, florida 34684 > > 1-(813) 771-1815 > > > > On Tue, 5 May 1998 22:35:02 -0500 "Ken YellowFeather" > > writes: > > >Hawk, > > >Now I have heard everything! Hare pipes, rabbit bones, this is almost > > >as > > >bad as the easter bunny laying colored easter eggs! The man, who told > > >this > > >man this, must have brown eyes. I have no idea how to answer this guy. > > >I am > > >still laughing too much! > > >Later, > > >Ken > > > > > >---------- > > >> From: Dale Nelson > > >> To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > > >> Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker....... > > >> Date: Tuesday, May 05, 1998 9:42 PM > > >> > > >> Ken McWilliams wrote: > > >> > > > >> > Howdy Dean, > > >> > I find it rather amusing that they give the credit for inventing > > >so > > >called > > >> > hair pipes to a white man. The native Americans were making these > > >and > > >the > > >> > beads at least a thousand years before > > >> > > >> I was under the impression that they are called hare pipes on > > >account of > > >> they were made out of rabbit bones. This was told me by a bead > > >> collector, I have no source, but it might be interesting to look > > >into. > > >> Dale Nelson dnelson@wizzards.net > > > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ > > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re Manton Rifles Date: 07 May 1998 23:32:07 -0400 THE GREAT GUNS BY PETERSON SHOWS SEVERAL MANTONS BUT ALL OF THEM ARE PISTOLS OR RIFLES. iT MAINLY TALKS ABOUT jOE oR jOSEPH MANTON SEE PAGES72,77,121,124,132 "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On 7 May 1998 18:03:06 -0700 "Pat Quilter" writes: > Re Manton Rifles >There IS a book out on Joe Manton, I've seen in in my friend's hands >(a >gunsmith), but unless its called something obvious like the "Guns of >Joe Manton" >I don't know what to say. It was mostly fowlers and pistols rather >than rifles >however -- no mention of the 62 caliber Manton rifle that Drummond >Stewart >mentions in Edward Warren. Lots of good lock details however. Try >Amazon or >other internet bookstore? >Pat Quilter > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken YellowFeather" Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: traps Date: 07 May 1998 23:42:48 -0500 > > Hello the list, > Hawk and I are debating which traps will work better for trapping a > sasquatch. # 55 beargetters with teeth or just plain # 42 lion traps. We > already have pink noggies fer bait! Your consideration in this will be > greatly appreciated. Serious replies only please! > Your most obt. servants, > Messrs. Hawk & YellowFeather ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: MtMan-List: Coping with a fire ban Date: 08 May 1998 08:37:56 -0600 All of Alberta is under a total fire ban right now, for the first time in decades. That means no open fires of any kind, not even charcoal barbecues. People are only allowed to use propane barbecues or campstoves. Has anyone had to cope with reenacting under such historically-incorrect conditions? What did you do? Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gary Bell Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: traps Date: 08 May 1998 09:54:28 -0700 Hmmmm, it appears that Hawk and Yellow Feather have been getting into the Kickapoo Joy Juice again. Everybody knows that Sasquatch don't give a hoot for pink! Gary Ken YellowFeather wrote: > > > > Hello the list, > > Hawk and I are debating which traps will work better for trapping a > > sasquatch. # 55 beargetters with teeth or just plain # 42 lion traps. We > > already have pink noggies fer bait! Your consideration in this will be > > greatly appreciated. Serious replies only please! > > Your most obt. servants, > > Messrs. Hawk & YellowFeather ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coping with a fire ban Date: 08 May 1998 13:11:34 EDT Angela, We have suffered similar indignities here in California during periods of extreme fire danger, when all open fires were banned. A metal fire ring, above ground, with a coleman stove set inside it worked for cookin', shielded the stove from sight and even provided some 'campfire' ambience after the meal. Another good device for above ground burning and protection from the wind is a washer tub, with perforations, from an old washing machine. (These are GREAT for wood burning fires, too, as they allow drafting, and radiate a tremendous amount of heat.) Hope this helps. PJ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Choker....... Date: 08 May 1998 11:35:55 -0600 I agree with the folks who feel hairpipe was quite scarce until later on. In reading Canadian fur trade journals (1774-1821), I've only found two references to anything at all like hair pipe. In December 1804, Francois-Antoine Larocque traded three strings of "pipe beads" as part of his payment for a mule at the Mandan villages (Masson 1:308). Two years later, Alexander Henry the Younger gave two "wampum hair pipes" and two "wampum shell pipes" as part of his payment for a horse--again at the Mandan/Hidatsa villages (Henry & Coues, 1:355). Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coping with a fire ban Date: 08 May 1998 11:09:09 -0700 Dear Angela, Not a whole lot you can do if there is a total fire ban on like you got in Alberta. I have attended vous' in the States out west in years past where a fire ban was gona be in-effect or was expected. Some times the ban was lifted or modifyed by the controling authority but not always and you can't count on it. What you have to do is buy off on that aspect of authenticity and go with gas or propane fired stoves for cooking etc. The reason that charcoal or such is not permitted is simply that when folks dump their ashes they don't always make sure that there are no live coals left. That was a leading cause of house fires or more specifically, garage fires that we responded to in the winter. Folks would empty their fire-places into grocery bags and set the bag out in the garage until trash pickup day or the weather got better. There would inevitably be a live coal in the bag that would set the bag on fire and adios garage/house! Ofcourse most people are smart enough to know this but not all. If you need to do the gas stove bit once in a while it's no big deal when you concider the devistation of a forest fire. I'm sure you agree. Hope this was of help. YMOS Capt. Lahti ret. -----Original Message----- >All of Alberta is under a total fire ban right now, for the first time in >decades. That means no open fires of any kind, not even charcoal barbecues. >People are only allowed to use propane barbecues or campstoves. Has anyone >had to cope with reenacting under such historically-incorrect conditions? >What did you do? > >Your humble & obedient servant, >Angela Gottfred >agottfre@telusplanet.net > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Roger Lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: traps Date: 08 May 1998 12:10:46 -0700 Messers. le Hawk and Yellow Feather, Boys am I glad you wrote and asked first! I only hope I truely have caught you in time! The "Hariy Lizards" been trapping sasquatch up here in the Pacific NW for years and we got it down to a science. We don't use leg hold traps or neck snares for obvious reasons that I will go into later. But suffice it to say that a live sasquatch is more valuable to use than a dead or damaged one. I want to assure you that this is the truth and Gaud aufal serious. So pay attention! Most folks who've never been here think we live in a forest of tall trees and grassy glades but not so. We live in the northern corner of the Great American Desert and fire wood is hard to come by, also long poles, which are neccessary if you want to trap a sasquatch live which we do. We borrow 4 of Crazy Lindseys largest teepee poles and set them up on the traping ground with the same tech. you would use to do a Blackfoot or Yakama set. We then borrow the largest landing net ( like we used to let the Jarheads practice scramling up and down the side of our LKA's in and out of the Mick6's and Mick8's) that we can find. This net is rigged horizontally inside the frame of 4 poles about 20' up with a simple release mechanism that can be triped from a remote location. By remote, I simply mean as gal dang far as you can get from the trap and still see it. Thats not a big problem here in Eastern WA since we generally can see for close to a hundred miles in almost any direction and YOU DON'T WANT TO BE CLOSE TO THE TRAP WHEN IT'S SPRUNG! Lots of good "Lizards" gone under over the years before we learned to stay back. Used to be a big outfit, only 10/11 of us left. We like to use hand layed hemp line or Linen line if available for all the rappings, hitches and release lines, in 3/4" or larger for obvious reasons. I say 'line' instead of rope' cause in my Bos'in's locker lines were made of natural or sinthetic fibers and rope was make of steel or a combination of steel and nat. fiber. Now to the bait! We set up the pine board knockdown bed I made for my wife and cover the ticking with several Playboy Centerfolds. This is ofcourse set up centered under the landing net/cargo net. We've never figured out what to use for scent so what we do is have some pilgrim (little case) beat his indian drum in a poor imitation of real Indian Druming. We use the newest guy in the "Hairy Lizards" kind of as a last test to see if he will servive I mean pass the initiation cerimony and actually get his "Lizard". When his Gaud Offle drumming has got the attention of a sasquatch and brought it to the trap, we wait until the critter is full on the bed and then we spring the trap. You erstwhile gentelmen didn't say why you wanted to trap a sasquatch. I can only assume it is for the same reason that we trap em. We trap them to fetch and carry for us, plain and simple! We used to take our wives with us until they figured out that the only reason we wanted them along was to fetch wood and water into camp. It is real dry over here in E WA and every one has built theirhose right along what few water courses there are. So if we want to camp primitive on public land we find ouselves a long way from water. The other problem is fire wood. Nothing grows over here but sage brush and cheat grass. Cheat grass burns so fast that it's hard to make a cup of tea and burning sage brush reminds us of what our 6th grade room smelt like in the winter after Taos had pee'ed on the radiator that fall. Not pleasent. So yes, you guessed it, we catch and train a sasquatch to fetch and carry. Low Number Joe tryed to train one for other duties but he's not with us any more. That was a real bad idea so don't try it, no matter how long you are out. After the sasquatch gets wise to us and quits or runs off we usually can get a few more nights out by burning the four poles we got from "Crazy", afterall he lives on the wet side and can get more. Well this is as serious an answer as your likely to get on the subject and I hope it was of help. Boy I love this List! Oh, yea, Jon Town can coroberate all I'm telling you cause he used to come over here and play with us but he wouldn't listen when we told him not to try to teach the sasqatch how to perform those 'other' services I alluded to. He don't come over here any more. Last time I saw him he was headed over Snoqualmy Pass with a lady sasquatch close on his heels. Have fun with your new knowledge, play safe and have fun. YMOS "Capt." Lahti -----Original Message----- > >> >> Hello the list, >> Hawk and I are debating which traps will work better for trapping a >> sasquatch. # 55 beargetters with teeth or just plain # 42 lion traps. We >> already have pink noggies fer bait! Your consideration in this will be >> greatly appreciated. Serious replies only please! >> Your most obt. servants, >> Messrs. Hawk & YellowFeather > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MIA3WOLVES Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: traps Date: 08 May 1998 16:15:03 EDT Sasquatch are not in season. Mute point. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Nauga Mok Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coping with a fire ban Date: 08 May 1998 16:23:54 EDT In a message dated 98-05-08 11:15:02 EDT, you write: << Has anyone had to cope with reenacting under such historically-incorrect conditions? What did you do? >> Oh, yea! We use Forestry property quite a bit for our events & we normaly have fire bans every summer here in the Nevada desert. Even when we CAN have fires, we're required to have above ground fire pits. For big events, sometimes we're able to get special permission for fires, but that's after many years of working with our local Forestry office & developing some raport with them. For our local events, we just grin & bear it & comply with the regulations even though setting around a Coleman stove doesn't compare to setting around a nice camp fire. It helps to keep in mind that it's for our safety these bans are put into effect even though sometimes they don't make sense. They impose our fire bans based on the condition of the Forestry property in the northern part of the state which is quite diferent here in the southern tip. Forest fires are a reality here -- some part of our mountain range burns nearly every Summer, so we feel Forestry is justified in their caution. It's definitely un-nerving to see smoke start billowing up over the mountain we're camped on when we've seen how hast a wild fire can move -- & we're 15 miles away from the nearest "hard road" with 50 yds of canvas to strike & pack. We've had a realy wet winter due to "El Nin~o", which is probably the cause of your abnormaly dry spell. This means when the forest drys out this Summer, the fire danger will be just that much higher due to all the extra growth going on now while it's wet. NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: traps Date: 08 May 1998 12:53:04 -0700 (PDT) On Fri, 8 May 1998, Roger Lahti wrote: > The "Hariy Lizards" been trapping sasquatch up here in the Pacific NW for > years and we got it down to a science. ROFL! Laughed so hard it brought tears to me eyes! Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: 2hearts@shasta.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coping with a fire ban Date: 08 May 1998 17:19:46 -0700 Angela, I suspect a cold camp was not unusual for the "old ones" when the Blackfeet were afoot. I think that with a bit ingenuity one could convince themselves that jerky and hardtack could be a palatable fare. The other alternative is go with prepared foods of various sorts that could be eaten cold.....cheese, hams, breads, smoked fish, greens, ect. ect. ect. ...all which are documented foods available at varoius times. Warmth.....well thats a different story. A good Buf. robe will fill the bill and,...... a person of like mind.......if you get my drift I think if one cam recreate mentally situations that the fur traders did/would have experienced, and lord knows they did it all, it's not hard to "recreate". This may seem rather simplistic....but that's my thought on the subject. John Funk Fall River, Cal. -----Original Message----- >All of Alberta is under a total fire ban right now, for the first time in >decades. That means no open fires of any kind, not even charcoal barbecues. >People are only allowed to use propane barbecues or campstoves. Has anyone >had to cope with reenacting under such historically-incorrect conditions? >What did you do? > >Your humble & obedient servant, >Angela Gottfred >agottfre@telusplanet.net > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coping with a fire ban Date: 08 May 1998 19:17:51 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD7AB5.FE85E920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Angel: you do what you have to do or stay home. You could cook in side of your tent. We had to that one year in Utah some were careful with fires and some didn't some went home. Later Jon T ---------- : From: Angela Gottfred : To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com : Subject: MtMan-List: Coping with a fire ban : Date: Friday, May 08, 1998 7:37 AM : : All of Alberta is under a total fire ban right now, for the first time in : decades. That means no open fires of any kind, not even charcoal barbecues. : People are only allowed to use propane barbecues or campstoves. Has anyone : had to cope with reenacting under such historically-incorrect conditions? : What did you do? : : Your humble & obedient servant, : Angela Gottfred : agottfre@telusplanet.net : ------=_NextPart_000_01BD7AB5.FE85E920 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Angel: you do what you have to do or = stay home.  You could cook in side of your tent.  We had to = that one year in Utah some were careful with fires and some didn't some = went home.  Later Jon T

----------
: From: Angela = Gottfred <agottfre@telusplanet.net>
: To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
: Subject: MtMan-List: Coping with a fire ban
: = total fire ban right now, for the first time in
: decades. That = means no open fires of any kind, not even charcoal barbecues.
: = People are only allowed to use propane barbecues or campstoves. Has = anyone
: had to cope with reenacting under such = historically-incorrect conditions?
: What did you do?
:
: = Your humble & obedient servant,
: Angela Gottfred
: agottfre@telusplanet.net
:

------=_NextPart_000_01BD7AB5.FE85E920-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coping with a fire ban Date: 08 May 1998 22:26:58 -0400 HI! Two Words...Cold Camp. Dennis Miles Nauga Mok wrote: > In a message dated 98-05-08 11:15:02 EDT, you write: > > << Has anyone had to cope with reenacting under such historically-incorrect > conditions? What did you do? >> > NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123 Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coping with a fire ban Date: 08 May 1998 23:58:25 EDT Angela, I've done som trekking in the Sierras, (Plumas and Tahoe National Forests) under fire restriction. We created a scenario that Bugs Boys were about and we had to cold camp. We planned lots of meals around jerky, pemmican and the like. It adds a different flavor (Pun intended) to the trip. Can't shoot, move stealthily, etc. These were done in the summer, so it wasn't too cold. We even dodged the Forest Service rangers, calling them Bugs Boys! We also tended to hit the blankets a little earlier since there was no fire to sit around and yack. Mornings were a bit empty without coffee though. Jim Hardee AMM#1676 P.O. Box 1228 Quincy, CA 95971 (530)283-4566 (H) (530)283-3330 (W) (530)283-5171 FAX Casapy123@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Clay Landry Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Calico in Fur trade Date: 09 May 1998 08:58:11 -0600 (MDT) At 04:57 PM 5/7/98 -0500, you wrote: Yes calico was available, but it was >very scarce and very expensive during the fur trade period. ------------------------ Sorry-but my research indicates that Calico was quite readily available and quite cheap in the Rocky Mountains when compared to other cloth during the 1800-1850 period. From Alexander Henry, Lewis & Clark to later years of Fort Union- just about all of the orignal lists of trade goods and inventories that I have seen contain references to either calico cloth or shirts. Here are a few examples; Pacific Fur Company-Fort Astoria October 1813: 46 yards of printed calico @ 26 cents per yard, 12 pieces India calico, per piece of 4 1/2 yards 81 1/2 cents per yard, cotton check was $1.46 per yard. Alexander Henry-1811-List of trade goods includes; 7 1/2 yards fine Calicoe, 4 1/2 yards linnen, 4 yds checked Cotton cloth. The Calico was valued at "3 skins" per yard while the cotton check was "4 skins" per yard. His list also included "4 fine cotton shirts, 8 Common cotton shirts, and 3 calico shirts". Lewis and Clark- their list of "Indian Presents" includes "48 Calico Ruffled Shirts" while the expedtion members had "30 Priv Linnen Shirts" . Peter Skene Ogden-"Account of Sundries Supplied the Snake Expedition Outfit 1826" in the section on "Country made articles" is "11 Ell wide Indian Shirts Calico". The list for the 1827 Snake river country Expedition contains the same entry. Like the Lewis and Clark information , it seems that calico was such a cheap cloth that it was used as Indian gifts! William Ashley- List of goods to be taken to Smith Jackson and Sublette at the 1827 Rendezvous, includes several references to cloth, " domestic cotton at one dollar and twenty five cents per yard, grey cloth at common quality at five dollars per yard, flannels common quality at one dollar fifty cents per yard, callicoes assorted at one dollar per yard,". Keep in mind that these prices were "mountain prices to SJS, to be paid in Beaver, yet on a comparison basis "callicoes" were the cheapest. Robert Campbell- in his accounts of items taken to the 1832 Pierre's hole Rendezvous, a calico shirt sold for $1.25 each while yellow flannel sold for $2.50 each, and check shirts for 75 cents. Fort Union- This American Fur company post located ate the junction of the Yellowstone and Missouri rivers left us some very detailed records, these include, in 1834, "fancy calico & bright colored shirts-260", other years inventories contain similar numbers of calico shirts. Bents Fort-the 1838 inventory contains "97 3/4 yards Fancy Calico at 22 cents a yard, and "28 yards Fancy Calico at 23 cents per yard". On this same list the "cotton check shirts" were $7 each and the "Fancy calico" were $1.25 each. Nathaniel Weyth and Fort Hall- "Invoice of Goods Remaining at Fort Hall in store uncashed" August 1834. Includes " 41 1/2 yards of check at 12 1/2 cents per yd, 28 yds light calico at 20 cents per yd, 22 yds blue cloth at $2.25 per yd, and 13 3/4 yds white domestic 7 1/2 cents, Also 24 yds scarlet cloth at $1.65 yd. In the years from 1834 to 1837 the Fort Hall ledgers include numerous purchases of calico shirts by the trappers operating out of this post. Calico, Gingham, and cotton shirts all sold for $3 each, while flannel shirts were $4. In 1836 the Tailors shop at the Fort started making shirts, many of them calico, they sold for $3. In the Charles Hanson article on Rendezvous trade goods, he shows that the 1836 Rendezvous received lots of ready made shirts including; 236 flannel shirts, 157 calico shirts, 129 checked, 51 plaid, 12 plain and 7 pink! On that note I'll quit! Clay Landry P.O. Box 1033 Columbus MT 59019 -------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JSeminerio Subject: Re: MtMan-List: reenacting forum Date: 09 May 1998 14:35:10 EDT hey colleen my best suggestion is breakdown the listing by 1. geography first, then by type. I'm much more likely to go to a closer event. 2. event listings, by type w/ features 3. (I know this will sound very high schoolish but....) A palnned participants lists. If you plan on going put your name on the list I am more likely to go to an avent with friends 4. Event review section about a month berfore a planned event ask past participants to put up a review. I flew 1600 miles to go to the Mardi Gras rendezvous in Lafette La and would still be going if it wasn't for hurricane andrew If i can be of any help please do not hesitate to contact me ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "yellow rose/pendleton" Subject: MtMan-List: calico Date: 09 May 1998 23:21:40 -0500 Mr. Landry, History is full of contradictions. I am aware of the many shipments of calico shirts to the trading posts. Perhaps the fact that the trade goods were shipped by way of St. Louis from New York and Philadelphia explains the fact that there was that many calico shirts available. The calico that was available on the Texas frontier had to generally come from New Orleans. The documentation I am refering to states: " Once in a great while we are able to obtain a small piece of unbleached domestic, or a bit of calico, at the exobitant price of seventy-cents a yard, from someone passing through the country, but this is seldom.The common dress of the men and children is made of buckskin, and even the women are forced to wear the same." [W.B. Dewees Letters from an early settler of Texas] I do not have a better explaination. It is my understanding that cloth at that time did not come in the widths that it does now. I am told that it generally was only 36" wide. So at that price it was indeed expensive. Your point is well taken and I certainly do not disagree. Pendleton ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Barry Robbins Subject: MtMan-List: FOR SALE: 24' cedarstrip voyageur canoe Date: 09 May 1998 21:07:40 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7B21CE36CFDA98FF7AD7E629 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "FOR SALE, 1 share is available to be part owner in a 24' cedar strip voyageur northern canoe. A share holder will have access to the canoe and participation in waterway activities. Share holders can also get there own crew together and take the canoe on waterways of your choosing. The canoe is outfitted for 8 positions and painted to resemble northern canoes of the 18th and 19th centuries. Price for the share is $200.00. Current share holders are AMM members in Oregon and Washington. For information contact Jeff Smith 253-848-6274. or JeffSmith@FOSSENV.COM --------------7B21CE36CFDA98FF7AD7E629 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Barry Robbins Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Barry Robbins n: ;Barry Robbins email;internet: rfiddler@earthlink.net x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------7B21CE36CFDA98FF7AD7E629-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123 Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coping with a fire ban Date: 09 May 1998 23:57:27 EDT John Funk; Glad to see you're back on the list. I've been trying to e-mail you and the mail has come back undeliverable each time. Don't give up on me. Write me one more time with your Postal address and I'll write snail-mail until I can get your e-mail address to go through. I keep trying.... Jim Hardee ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Singer - \"Spinner\"" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coping with a fire ban Date: 10 May 1998 09:03:07 -0600 yep, this happened here in Colorado, 2 or 3 years ago. One rendezvous I went to got permission for a limited number of fires (I think 5), which all camps shared. This wasn't so bad, as there were probably 30 camps. Another one that same summer had no fires - folks just had to deal with it and use a camp stove or do without. Personally, I put a small one-burner backpacking stove down inside my dutch oven (as camouflage) and put pots on the stove. Scott Singer, aka "Spinner" WWW Rendezvous Web Site: http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners Web Site http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833 -----Original Message----- >All of Alberta is under a total fire ban right now, for the first time in >decades. That means no open fires of any kind, not even charcoal barbecues. >People are only allowed to use propane barbecues or campstoves. Has anyone >had to cope with reenacting under such historically-incorrect conditions? >What did you do? > >Your humble & obedient servant, >Angela Gottfred >agottfre@telusplanet.net > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: MtMan-List: gourd seeds Date: 09 May 1998 19:28:00 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD7B80.944322A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have some canteen gourd seeds for anyone who wants them send me a self addressed envelope and I will stick them in a plastic bag in a damp paper towel and they should be ready to put in a starter pot. If you don't them already germinated let me know and I'll send them dry. Just send the replies to Jon Towns P O Box 143 Manchester WA 98353 I'll enclose about a dozen that should give everyone who wants them enough to grow this summer. They are hard to dry these came from Phoenix AZ ------=_NextPart_000_01BD7B80.944322A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have some canteen gourd seeds for = anyone who wants them send me a self addressed envelope and I will stick = them in a plastic bag in a damp paper towel and they should be ready to = put in a starter pot.  If you don't them already germinated let me = know and I'll send them dry.  Just send the replies to
Jon = Towns
P O Box 143
Manchester WA 98353

I'll enclose about a = dozen that should give everyone who wants them enough to grow this = summer.  They are hard to dry these came from Phoenix AZ =    

------=_NextPart_000_01BD7B80.944322A0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing Subject: MtMan-List: Francis Parkman and "The Oregon Trail" Date: 09 May 1998 19:49:32 EDT Hello the List, I'm just about finished reading a 1923 edition of Parkman's "The Oregon Trail" that I picked up in an antique store. I mention this because the book was apparently written from a diary about a hunting trip in the spring of 1846....and had little, or nothing to do about the Oregon Trail. For those that have not read the book, Parkman and his companion Shaw, left St. Louis on the 28th of April 1846, ...."on a tour of curiosity and amusement to the Rocky Mountains." He, Parkman, gives an outstanding account of what it was like to travel in the country, hunt buffalo, meet some great "trappers", and live with the Indians. The book has several illustrations by Frederic Remington and I at times, had trouble putting the book down.....good reading for folks like us! I'm headed to Charlotte, NC for a couple weeks of flight training.... anything happen there I should know about? And what should a pilot/mountianman check out while I'm in the neighborhood.....thanks. Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Calico in Fur trade Date: 09 May 1998 12:43:56 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD7B48.2183F600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The prices hasn't changed much except the time it take to earn it. Jon T ---------- : From: Clay Landry : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Calico in Fur trade : Date: Saturday, May 09, 1998 7:58 AM : : At 04:57 PM 5/7/98 -0500, you wrote: : Yes calico was available, but it was : >very scarce and very expensive during the fur trade period. : : ------------------------ : : Sorry-but my research indicates that Calico was quite readily available and : quite cheap in the Rocky Mountains when compared to other cloth during the : 1800-1850 period. From Alexander Henry, Lewis & Clark to later years of Fort : Union- just about all of the orignal lists of trade goods and inventories : that I have seen contain references to either calico cloth or shirts. Here : are a few examples; : : Pacific Fur Company-Fort Astoria October 1813: 46 yards of printed calico @ : 26 cents per yard, 12 pieces India calico, per piece of 4 1/2 yards 81 1/2 : cents per yard, cotton check was $1.46 per yard. : : Alexander Henry-1811-List of trade goods includes; 7 1/2 yards fine Calicoe, : 4 1/2 yards linnen, 4 yds checked Cotton cloth. The Calico was valued at "3 : skins" per yard while the cotton check was "4 skins" per yard. His list also : included "4 fine cotton shirts, 8 Common cotton shirts, and 3 calico shirts". : : Lewis and Clark- their list of "Indian Presents" includes "48 Calico Ruffled : Shirts" while the expedtion members had "30 Priv Linnen Shirts" . : : Peter Skene Ogden-"Account of Sundries Supplied the Snake Expedition Outfit : 1826" in the section on "Country made articles" is "11 Ell wide Indian : Shirts Calico". The list for the 1827 Snake river country Expedition : contains the same entry. Like the Lewis and Clark information , it seems : that calico was such a cheap cloth that it was used as Indian gifts! : : William Ashley- List of goods to be taken to Smith Jackson and Sublette at : the 1827 Rendezvous, includes several references to cloth, " domestic cotton : at one dollar and twenty five cents per yard, grey cloth at common quality : at five dollars per yard, flannels common quality at one dollar fifty cents : per yard, callicoes assorted at one dollar per yard,". Keep in mind that : these prices were "mountain prices to SJS, to be paid in Beaver, yet on a : comparison basis "callicoes" were the cheapest. : : Robert Campbell- in his accounts of items taken to the 1832 Pierre's hole : Rendezvous, a calico shirt sold for $1.25 each while yellow flannel sold for : $2.50 each, and check shirts for 75 cents. : : Fort Union- This American Fur company post located ate the junction of the : Yellowstone and Missouri rivers left us some very detailed records, these : include, in 1834, "fancy calico & bright colored shirts-260", other years : inventories contain similar numbers of calico shirts. : : Bents Fort-the 1838 inventory contains "97 3/4 yards Fancy Calico at 22 : cents a yard, and "28 yards Fancy Calico at 23 cents per yard". On this same : list the "cotton check shirts" were $7 each and the "Fancy calico" were : $1.25 each. : : Nathaniel Weyth and Fort Hall- "Invoice of Goods Remaining at Fort Hall in : store uncashed" August 1834. Includes " 41 1/2 yards of check at 12 1/2 : cents per yd, 28 yds light calico at 20 cents per yd, 22 yds blue cloth at : $2.25 per yd, and 13 3/4 yds white domestic 7 1/2 cents, Also 24 yds scarlet : cloth at $1.65 yd. : In the years from 1834 to 1837 the Fort Hall ledgers include numerous : purchases of calico shirts by the trappers operating out of this post. : Calico, Gingham, and cotton shirts all sold for $3 each, while flannel : shirts were $4. In 1836 the Tailors shop at the Fort started making shirts, : many of them calico, they sold for $3. : : In the Charles Hanson article on Rendezvous trade goods, he shows that the : 1836 Rendezvous received lots of ready made shirts including; 236 flannel : shirts, 157 calico shirts, 129 checked, 51 plaid, 12 plain and 7 pink! : : On that note I'll quit! : : Clay Landry : P.O. Box 1033 : Columbus MT 59019 : -------------- : ------=_NextPart_000_01BD7B48.2183F600 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The prices hasn't changed much except = the time it take to earn it. Jon T

----------
: From: Clay = Landry <Landry@wtp.net>
: To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
: Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Calico in Fur = trade
: Date: Saturday, May 09, 1998 7:58 AM
:
: At 04:57 PM = 5/7/98 -0500, you wrote:
: Yes calico was available, but it was
: = >very scarce and very expensive during the fur trade period.
: =
: ------------------------
:
: Sorry-but my research = indicates that Calico was quite readily available and
: quite cheap = in the Rocky Mountains when compared to other cloth during the
: = 1800-1850 period. From Alexander Henry, Lewis & Clark to later years = of Fort
: Union- just about all of the orignal lists of trade goods = and inventories
: that I have seen contain references to either = calico cloth or shirts. Here
: are a few examples;
:
: Pacific = Fur Company-Fort Astoria October 1813: 46 yards of printed calico @
: = 26 cents per yard, 12 pieces India calico, per piece of 4 1/2 yards 81 = 1/2
: cents per yard, cotton check was $1.46 per yard.
:
: = Alexander Henry-1811-List of trade goods includes; 7 1/2 yards fine = Calicoe,
: 4 1/2 yards linnen, 4 yds checked Cotton cloth.  The = Calico was valued at "3
: skins" per yard while the cotton = check was "4 skins" per yard. His list also
: included = "4 fine cotton shirts, 8 Common cotton shirts, and 3 calico = shirts".
:
: Lewis and Clark- their list of "Indian = Presents" includes "48 Calico Ruffled
: Shirts" while = the expedtion members had "30 Priv Linnen Shirts" .
:
: = Peter Skene Ogden-"Account of Sundries Supplied the Snake = Expedition Outfit
: 1826" in the section on "Country made = articles" is "11 Ell wide Indian
: Shirts Calico". The = list for the 1827 Snake river country Expedition
: contains the same = entry. Like the Lewis and Clark information , it seems
: that calico = was such a cheap cloth that it was used as Indian gifts!
:
: = William Ashley- List of goods to be taken to Smith Jackson and Sublette = at
: the 1827 Rendezvous, includes several references to cloth, = " domestic cotton
: at one dollar and twenty five cents per = yard, grey cloth at common quality
: at five dollars per yard, = flannels common quality at one dollar fifty cents
: per yard, = callicoes assorted at one dollar per yard,". Keep in mind that
: = these prices were "mountain prices to SJS, to be paid in Beaver, = yet on a
: comparison basis "callicoes" were the = cheapest.
:
: Robert Campbell- in his accounts of items taken to = the 1832 Pierre's hole
: Rendezvous, a calico shirt sold for $1.25 = each while yellow flannel sold for
: $2.50 each, and check shirts for = 75 cents.
:
: Fort Union- This American Fur company post located = ate the junction of the
: Yellowstone and Missouri rivers left us = some very detailed records, these
: include, in 1834, "fancy = calico & bright colored shirts-260", other years
: = inventories contain similar numbers of calico shirts.
:
: Bents = Fort-the 1838 inventory contains "97 3/4 yards Fancy Calico at = 22
: cents a yard, and "28 yards Fancy Calico at 23 cents per = yard". On this same
: list the "cotton check shirts" = were $7 each and the "Fancy calico" were
: $1.25 each.
: =
: Nathaniel Weyth and Fort Hall- "Invoice of Goods Remaining at = Fort Hall in
: store uncashed" August 1834. Includes " 41 = 1/2 yards of check at 12 1/2
: cents per yd, 28 yds light calico at = 20 cents per yd, 22 yds blue cloth at
: $2.25 per yd, and 13 3/4 yds = white domestic 7 1/2 cents, Also 24 yds scarlet
: cloth at $1.65 = yd.
: In the years from 1834 to 1837 the Fort Hall ledgers include = numerous
: purchases of calico shirts by the trappers operating out = of this post.
: Calico, Gingham, and cotton shirts all sold for $3 = each, while flannel
: shirts were $4. In 1836 the Tailors shop at the = Fort started making shirts,
: many of them calico, they sold for $3. =
:
: In the Charles Hanson article on Rendezvous trade goods, he = shows that the
: 1836 Rendezvous received lots of ready made shirts = including; 236 flannel
: shirts, 157 calico shirts, 129 checked, 51 = plaid, 12 plain and 7 pink!
:
: On that note I'll quit!
: =
: Clay Landry
: P.O. Box 1033
: Columbus MT 59019
: = --------------
:

------=_NextPart_000_01BD7B48.2183F600-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Calamity Jane" Subject: MtMan-List: trapping saquatch Date: 08 May 1998 18:42:26 -0500 Howdy Fellers! If'n you truly are a trying to catch a live Sasquatch let me tell you a little trick I learnt down on the Brazos of all places. What you need is some female Sasquatch lure! Just lay a trail from one of their waterin' holes to where you have built a trap. Actually, if'n you just leave the stopper outta' the bottle they just about follow you dang near anywhere. Now, I grant you this lure is a mite hard to come by since it contains Sasquatch pheramones. I had a lotta time to think this out drivin' them mules north - nottin more borin' than starin at the south end of a north-bound mule for hundreds of miles! What with all them green hides in the back of the wagon a Sasquatch wouldn't come any closer than the Black Hills are from Nogales. Panther Pete offered to catch me a female Sasquatch ifin' I'd give him a jug of corn squeezins I got off some sod busters up on the Missouri. I didn't ask him the particulars as I'm not one to pry into a feller's private life, but he did catch me one. She gave me the first pheramones and told me how to make more - a little like makin' sourdough bread. It would've been a lot easier to get more if she'a come with me, but she wouldn't let ole' Pete outta her sight. Far as I know they're still livin' in the caves down near Del Rio. Nuf Said. Calamity Jane ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "YellowFeather" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: traps Date: 08 May 1998 18:03:53 -0500 In response to Gary's comments about inplying that we wus into the Kickapoo Joy juice. We wus drinkin a concoction of mine that I loveingly call Lizard juice in honor of the NW territory men! Besides, our consumtion of spirits had nothing to do with our trappin a sasquatch. I saw a special on the Learnin Channel on sasquatch in the Louisiana swamps and thought we might git into National Geographiks or in the National Inquisitor as the first to captur a real live breathin sasquatch. But alas, those NW men have already done it and worst yet they have them doing chores and such! Thanks for the tip about the pink though. We was told thet they loved pink noggies but maybe it is just some allurin smell they have instead. YOS, Ken YellowFeather > From: Gary Bell > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: traps > Date: Friday, May 08, 1998 11:54 AM > > Hmmmm, it appears that Hawk and Yellow Feather have been getting into the > Kickapoo Joy Juice again. Everybody knows that Sasquatch don't give a hoot > for pink! > > Gary > > Ken YellowFeather wrote: > > > > > > > Hello the list, > > > Hawk and I are debating which traps will work better for trapping a > > > sasquatch. # 55 beargetters with teeth or just plain # 42 lion traps. We > > > already have pink noggies fer bait! Your consideration in this will be > > > greatly appreciated. Serious replies only please! > > > Your most obt. servants, > > > Messrs. Hawk & YellowFeather ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: traps Date: 08 May 1998 19:41:03 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD7AB9.3C121B80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yeller ole Roger is right that old sasquatch woman finally caught me and made me marry her and thats why I haven't been back over the mountains lately. She makes one helluva woman. She can chop a cord of wood in no time start fires real good and the only thing I have to do know is teach her not to blow the fire so close, the hair smell real bad when lit. I always thought hairy women were gross but I was wrong she give you warmth in the winter and her being so big shade in the summer. Later Jon T ---------- : From: Roger Lahti : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: traps : Date: Friday, May 08, 1998 12:10 PM : : Messers. le Hawk and Yellow Feather, : Boys am I glad you wrote and asked first! I only hope I truely have caught : you in time! : : The "Hariy Lizards" been trapping sasquatch up here in the Pacific NW for : years and we got it down to a science. We don't use leg hold traps or neck : snares for obvious reasons that I will go into later. But suffice it to say : that a live sasquatch is more valuable to use than a dead or damaged one. I : want to assure you that this is the truth and Gaud aufal serious. So pay : attention! : : Most folks who've never been here think we live in a forest of tall trees : and grassy glades but not so. We live in the northern corner of the Great : American Desert and fire wood is hard to come by, also long poles, which are : neccessary if you want to trap a sasquatch live which we do. We borrow 4 of : Crazy Lindseys largest teepee poles and set them up on the traping ground : with the same tech. you would use to do a Blackfoot or Yakama set. We then : borrow the largest landing net ( like we used to let the Jarheads practice : scramling up and down the side of our LKA's in and out of the Mick6's and : Mick8's) that we can find. This net is rigged horizontally inside the frame : of 4 poles about 20' up with a simple release mechanism that can be triped : from a remote location. By remote, I simply mean as gal dang far as you can : get from the trap and still see it. Thats not a big problem here in Eastern : WA since we generally can see for close to a hundred miles in almost any : direction and YOU DON'T WANT TO BE CLOSE TO THE TRAP WHEN IT'S SPRUNG! Lots : of good "Lizards" gone under over the years before we learned to stay back. : Used to be a big outfit, only 10/11 of us left. : : We like to use hand layed hemp line or Linen line if available for all the : rappings, hitches and release lines, in 3/4" or larger for obvious reasons. : I say 'line' instead of rope' cause in my Bos'in's locker lines were made of : natural or sinthetic fibers and rope was make of steel or a combination of : steel and nat. fiber. : : Now to the bait! We set up the pine board knockdown bed I made for my wife : and cover the ticking with several Playboy Centerfolds. This is ofcourse set : up centered under the landing net/cargo net. We've never figured out what to : use for scent so what we do is have some pilgrim (little case) beat his : indian drum in a poor imitation of real Indian Druming. We use the newest : guy in the "Hairy Lizards" kind of as a last test to see if he will servive : I mean pass the initiation cerimony and actually get his "Lizard". : : When his Gaud Offle drumming has got the attention of a sasquatch and : brought it to the trap, we wait until the critter is full on the bed and : then we spring the trap. You erstwhile gentelmen didn't say why you wanted : to trap a sasquatch. I can only assume it is for the same reason that we : trap em. : : We trap them to fetch and carry for us, plain and simple! We used to take : our wives with us until they figured out that the only reason we wanted them : along was to fetch wood and water into camp. It is real dry over here in E : WA and every one has built theirhose right along what few water courses : there are. So if we want to camp primitive on public land we find ouselves a : long way from water. The other problem is fire wood. Nothing grows over here : but sage brush and cheat grass. Cheat grass burns so fast that it's hard to : make a cup of tea and burning sage brush reminds us of what our 6th grade : room smelt like in the winter after Taos had pee'ed on the radiator that : fall. Not pleasent. : : So yes, you guessed it, we catch and train a sasquatch to fetch and carry. : Low Number Joe tryed to train one for other duties but he's not with us any : more. That was a real bad idea so don't try it, no matter how long you are : out. After the sasquatch gets wise to us and quits or runs off we usually : can get a few more nights out by burning the four poles we got from "Crazy", : afterall he lives on the wet side and can get more. : : Well this is as serious an answer as your likely to get on the subject and I : hope it was of help. Boy I love this List! Oh, yea, Jon Town can coroberate : all I'm telling you cause he used to come over here and play with us but he : wouldn't listen when we told him not to try to teach the sasqatch how to : perform those 'other' services I alluded to. He don't come over here any : more. Last time I saw him he was headed over Snoqualmy Pass with a lady : sasquatch close on his heels. : : Have fun with your new knowledge, play safe and have fun. : : YMOS : "Capt." Lahti : -----Original Message----- : From: Ken YellowFeather : To: Mtn. Man : Date: Friday, May 08, 1998 7:03 AM : Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: traps : : : > : >> : >> Hello the list, : >> Hawk and I are debating which traps will work better for trapping a : >> sasquatch. # 55 beargetters with teeth or just plain # 42 lion traps. We : >> already have pink noggies fer bait! Your consideration in this will be : >> greatly appreciated. Serious replies only please! : >> Your most obt. servants, : >> Messrs. Hawk & YellowFeather : > : ------=_NextPart_000_01BD7AB9.3C121B80 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Yeller ole Roger is right that old = sasquatch woman finally caught me and made me marry her and thats why I = haven't been back over the mountains lately. She makes one helluva = woman.  She can chop a cord of wood in no time start fires real = good and the only thing I have to do know is teach her not to blow the = fire so close, the hair smell real bad when lit.  I always thought = hairy women were gross but I was wrong she give you warmth in the winter = and her being so big shade in the summer.  Later Jon T
=

----------
: From: Roger Lahti <lahtirog@gte.net>
: To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: traps
: Date: = Friday, May 08, 1998 12:10 PM
:
: Messers. le Hawk and Yellow = Feather,
: Boys am I glad you wrote and asked first! I only hope I = truely have caught
: you in time!
:
: The "Hariy = Lizards" been trapping sasquatch up here in the Pacific NW for
: = years and we got it down to a science. We don't use leg hold traps or = neck
: snares for obvious reasons that I will go into later. But = suffice it to say
: that a live sasquatch is more valuable to use = than a dead or damaged one. I
: want to assure you that this is the = truth and Gaud aufal serious. So pay
: attention!
:
: Most = folks who've never been here think we live in a forest of tall = trees
: and grassy glades but not so. We live in the northern corner = of the Great
: American Desert and fire wood is hard to come by, also = long poles, which are
: neccessary if you want to trap a sasquatch = live which we do. We borrow 4 of
: Crazy Lindseys largest teepee = poles and set them up on the traping ground
: with the same tech. you = would use to do a Blackfoot or Yakama set. We then
: borrow the = largest landing net ( like we used to let the Jarheads practice
: = scramling up and down the side of our LKA's in and out of the Mick6's = and
: Mick8's) that we can find. This net is rigged horizontally = inside the frame
: of 4 poles about 20' up with a simple release = mechanism that can be triped
: from a remote location. By remote, I = simply mean as gal dang far as you can
: get from the trap and still = see it. Thats not a big problem here in Eastern
: WA since we = generally can see for close to a hundred miles in almost any
: = direction and YOU DON'T WANT TO BE CLOSE TO THE TRAP WHEN IT'S SPRUNG! = Lots
: of good "Lizards" gone under over the years before = we learned to stay back.
: Used to be a big outfit, only 10/11 of us = left.
:
: We like to use hand layed hemp line or Linen line if = available for all the
: rappings, hitches and release lines, in = 3/4" or larger for obvious reasons.
: I say 'line' instead of = rope' cause in my Bos'in's locker lines were made of
: natural or = sinthetic fibers and rope was make of steel or a combination of
: = steel and nat. fiber.
:
: Now to the bait! We set up the pine = board knockdown bed I made for my wife
: and cover the ticking with = several Playboy Centerfolds. This is ofcourse set
: up centered under = the landing net/cargo net. We've never figured out what to
: use for = scent so what we do is have some pilgrim (little case) beat his
: = indian drum in a poor imitation of real Indian Druming. We use the = newest
: guy in the "Hairy Lizards" kind of as a last test = to see if he will servive
: I mean pass the initiation cerimony and = actually get his "Lizard".
:
: When his Gaud Offle = drumming has got the attention of a sasquatch and
: brought it to the = trap, we wait until the critter is full on the bed and
: then we = spring the trap. You erstwhile gentelmen didn't say why you wanted
: = to trap a sasquatch. I can only assume it is for the same reason that = we
: trap em.
:
: We trap them to fetch and carry for us, = plain and simple! We used to take
: our wives with us until they = figured out that the only reason we wanted them
: along was to fetch = wood and water into camp. It is real dry over here in E
: WA and = every one has built theirhose right along what few water courses
: = there are. So if we want to camp primitive on public land we find = ouselves a
: long way from water. The other problem is fire wood. = Nothing grows over here
: but sage brush and cheat grass. Cheat grass = burns so fast that it's hard to
: make a cup of tea and burning sage = brush reminds us of what our 6th grade
: room smelt like in the = winter after Taos had pee'ed on the radiator that
: fall. Not = pleasent.
:
: So yes, you guessed it, we catch and train a = sasquatch to fetch and carry.
: Low Number Joe tryed to train one for = other duties but he's not with us any
: more. That was a real bad = idea so don't try it, no matter how long you are
: out. After the = sasquatch gets wise to us and quits or runs off we usually
: can get = a few more nights out by burning the four poles we got from = "Crazy",
: afterall he lives on the wet side and can get = more.
:
: Well this is as serious an answer as your likely to get = on the subject and I
: hope it was of help. Boy I love this List! Oh, = yea, Jon Town can coroberate
: all I'm telling you cause he used to = come over here and play with us but he
: wouldn't listen when we told = him not to try to teach the sasqatch how to
: perform those 'other' = services I alluded to. He don't come over here any
: more. Last time = I saw him he was headed over Snoqualmy Pass with a lady
: sasquatch = close on his heels.
:
: Have fun with your new knowledge, play = safe and have fun.
:
: YMOS
: "Capt." Lahti
: = -----Original Message-----
: From: Ken YellowFeather <rebelfreehold@worldnet.att.net>
: To: Mtn. Man <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
: Date: Friday, May 08, 1998 7:03 AM
: = >> Hello the list,
: >> Hawk and I are debating which = traps will work better for trapping a
: >> sasquatch. # 55 = beargetters with teeth or just plain # 42 lion traps. We
: >> = already have pink noggies fer bait! Your consideration in this will = be
: >> greatly appreciated. Serious replies only please!
: = >> Your most obt. servants,
: >> Messrs. Hawk & = YellowFeather
: >
:

------=_NextPart_000_01BD7AB9.3C121B80-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Carpenter Family Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gourd seeds Date: 10 May 1998 08:25:10 -0700 JON P TOWNS wrote: > > I have some canteen gourd seeds Dear Jon and the list: I have a canteen quality gourd that I haven't developed into a canteen as yet. It still contains the seeds. I got this gourd at rondyvoo maybe five years ago. Do you thinks the seeds will grow and if so, how do I use them? I don't have a green thumb. Most everything I try to grow, dies. Ken C (Carp) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Francis Parkman and "The Oregon Trail" Date: 10 May 1998 08:06:53 -0500 You are right about Parkman's book. It is outstanding--you just can't put it down. My copy is a 1910 edition that I found for $2.00 in a used bookstore and it is one of the prizes in my library. Parkman was a recent college graduate in 1846 and went west with his good friend Quincy Adams Shaw in part as an adventure in its own right, but also to prepare himself for a career as a writer. Do not pass up the opportunity to acquire a copy for yourself. Lanney Ratcliff -----Original Message----- >Hello the List, >I'm just about finished reading a 1923 edition of Parkman's "The Oregon Trail" >that I picked up in an antique store. I mention this because the book was >apparently written from a diary about a hunting trip in the spring of >1846....and had little, or nothing to do about the Oregon Trail. >For those that have not read the book, Parkman and his companion Shaw, left >St. Louis on the 28th of April 1846, ...."on a tour of curiosity and >amusement to the Rocky Mountains." He, Parkman, gives an outstanding account >of what it was like to travel in the country, hunt buffalo, meet some great >"trappers", and live with the Indians. The book has several illustrations by >Frederic Remington and I at times, had trouble putting the book down.....good >reading for folks like us! > >I'm headed to Charlotte, NC for a couple weeks of flight training.... anything >happen there I should know about? And what should a pilot/mountianman check >out while I'm in the neighborhood.....thanks. > >Steve > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trapping saquatch Date: 10 May 1998 08:16:20 -0500 I know it is all in fun, and I'm worse than most in that regard, but I will be glad when somebody finally catches a damn sasquatch. Lanney Ratcliff -----Original Message----- >Howdy Fellers! > If'n you truly are a trying to catch a live Sasquatch let me tell you a >little trick I learnt down on the Brazos of all places. What you need is >some female Sasquatch lure! Just lay a trail from one of their waterin' >holes to where you have built a trap. Actually, if'n you just leave the >stopper outta' the bottle they just about follow you dang near anywhere. >Now, I grant you this lure is a mite hard to come by since it contains >Sasquatch pheramones. I had a lotta time to think this out drivin' them >mules north - nottin more borin' than starin at the south end of a >north-bound mule for hundreds of miles! >What with all them green hides in the back of the wagon a Sasquatch >wouldn't come any closer than the Black Hills are from Nogales. > Panther Pete offered to catch me a female Sasquatch ifin' I'd give him a >jug of corn squeezins I got off some sod busters up on the Missouri. I >didn't ask him the particulars as I'm not one to pry into a feller's >private life, but he did catch me one. She gave me the first pheramones >and told me how to make more - a little like makin' sourdough bread. It >would've been a lot easier to get more if she'a come with me, but she >wouldn't let ole' Pete outta her sight. Far as I know they're still livin' >in the caves down near Del Rio. Nuf Said. > Calamity Jane > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Branson" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Calico in Fur trade Date: 10 May 1998 12:16:33 -0500 You do that well Clay. M. Branson -----Original Message----- >At 04:57 PM 5/7/98 -0500, you wrote: >Yes calico was available, but it was >>very scarce and very expensive during the fur trade period. > >------------------------ > >Sorry-but my research indicates that Calico was quite readily available and >quite cheap in the Rocky Mountains when compared to other cloth during the >1800-1850 period. From Alexander Henry, Lewis & Clark to later years of Fort >Union- just about all of the orignal lists of trade goods and inventories >that I have seen contain references to either calico cloth or shirts. Here >are a few examples; > >Pacific Fur Company-Fort Astoria October 1813: 46 yards of printed calico @ >26 cents per yard, 12 pieces India calico, per piece of 4 1/2 yards 81 1/2 >cents per yard, cotton check was $1.46 per yard. > >Alexander Henry-1811-List of trade goods includes; 7 1/2 yards fine Calicoe, >4 1/2 yards linnen, 4 yds checked Cotton cloth. The Calico was valued at "3 >skins" per yard while the cotton check was "4 skins" per yard. His list also >included "4 fine cotton shirts, 8 Common cotton shirts, and 3 calico shirts". > >Lewis and Clark- their list of "Indian Presents" includes "48 Calico Ruffled >Shirts" while the expedtion members had "30 Priv Linnen Shirts" . > >Peter Skene Ogden-"Account of Sundries Supplied the Snake Expedition Outfit >1826" in the section on "Country made articles" is "11 Ell wide Indian >Shirts Calico". The list for the 1827 Snake river country Expedition >contains the same entry. Like the Lewis and Clark information , it seems >that calico was such a cheap cloth that it was used as Indian gifts! > >William Ashley- List of goods to be taken to Smith Jackson and Sublette at >the 1827 Rendezvous, includes several references to cloth, " domestic cotton >at one dollar and twenty five cents per yard, grey cloth at common quality >at five dollars per yard, flannels common quality at one dollar fifty cents >per yard, callicoes assorted at one dollar per yard,". Keep in mind that >these prices were "mountain prices to SJS, to be paid in Beaver, yet on a >comparison basis "callicoes" were the cheapest. > >Robert Campbell- in his accounts of items taken to the 1832 Pierre's hole >Rendezvous, a calico shirt sold for $1.25 each while yellow flannel sold for >$2.50 each, and check shirts for 75 cents. > >Fort Union- This American Fur company post located ate the junction of the >Yellowstone and Missouri rivers left us some very detailed records, these >include, in 1834, "fancy calico & bright colored shirts-260", other years >inventories contain similar numbers of calico shirts. > >Bents Fort-the 1838 inventory contains "97 3/4 yards Fancy Calico at 22 >cents a yard, and "28 yards Fancy Calico at 23 cents per yard". On this same >list the "cotton check shirts" were $7 each and the "Fancy calico" were >$1.25 each. > >Nathaniel Weyth and Fort Hall- "Invoice of Goods Remaining at Fort Hall in >store uncashed" August 1834. Includes " 41 1/2 yards of check at 12 1/2 >cents per yd, 28 yds light calico at 20 cents per yd, 22 yds blue cloth at >$2.25 per yd, and 13 3/4 yds white domestic 7 1/2 cents, Also 24 yds scarlet >cloth at $1.65 yd. >In the years from 1834 to 1837 the Fort Hall ledgers include numerous >purchases of calico shirts by the trappers operating out of this post. >Calico, Gingham, and cotton shirts all sold for $3 each, while flannel >shirts were $4. In 1836 the Tailors shop at the Fort started making shirts, >many of them calico, they sold for $3. > >In the Charles Hanson article on Rendezvous trade goods, he shows that the >1836 Rendezvous received lots of ready made shirts including; 236 flannel >shirts, 157 calico shirts, 129 checked, 51 plaid, 12 plain and 7 pink! > >On that note I'll quit! > >Clay Landry >P.O. Box 1033 >Columbus MT 59019 >-------------- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Branson" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coping with a fire ban Date: 10 May 1998 12:39:52 -0500 You are right sir The 1996 NMLRA Western National Rendezvous went with a fire ban for all of the Rendezvous here in Colorado. It was a big inconvenience but we made do. Finally after three days of rain and watching half the camp leave the forest service in their wisdom allowed us to have cooking fires but they still made us douse them after every meal. This is the main reason the NMLRA has gone to a private ranch for their Western Rendezvous for 1997-98. With all of the infighting of the last three years the NMLRA Western Rendezvous has shrunk to a maneagble size of about 100-150 camps and so they have gone back to using private land. In 1980, We held the NAPR/NMLRA Western National Rendezvous on a private ranch near La Veta Colorado and the entire state of Colorado was under a fire ban during July. The rangers (crow)came into our camp saw our fire fighting equipment used some common sense and left us alone. The rangers (crow) in those days seemed to be more concerned about our needs then. The rangers today (bugs boys) just sort of seem to be concerned with meeting some obscure beauracrats(chief of the bugs boys) idea of what seems right. We little folks seem to be getting swept under the carpet. Seems some ranchers have a little more common sense about some things than the Govt employees. In 25 years of tipi camping I have never seen a forest fire that was started by good folks who shoot flintlocks or wear leather or do any of the other peculiar things identified with such as those who read this list. Mike Branson I do firmly believe that the rich and powerful along with the sierra club and all the others of that crowd have forgotten the meaning of the phrase "multiple use management". Some day we will all have to dress in cute little spandex shorts and tops and ride the highways on bicyles just to see the High lonesome. Between the rich celebrities and the politicians and the rich tree huggers posting it all we ordinary folks won't be able to camp up there at all. Sorry, I rambled too long. M. Branson -----Original Message----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JFLEMYTH Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Adhesives Date: 10 May 1998 20:39:38 EDT Hello the net! Sorry, but I am bringing out another question here. It seems I have a real talent to get some almost too lively discussion going on the list, but I think I'm safe this time. My wife teaches school, and is always trying to do projects based on 18th and 19th century tools and technology. Does any body have any old recepies for adhesives or know some prime ingredients used in them? She has recepies for making soaps, dies, and other things, but not glues. Any imput would be appreciated. (Even things that are not totally period correct may help with simple projects for children.) Again, thanks for all this list teaches all us pilgrims! John Fleming ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken McWilliams" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trapping saquatch Date: 10 May 1998 20:32:32 -0500 Sorry Lanney, But I noticed that one of the things mountain men were supposedly noted for had never come up on the list. That is the ability (?) to tell some great yarns. A little humor now and then never hurt anyone either. To all interested parties: I suggest we take our pursuit of the elusive sasquatch off line and send further responses privatly. Your Obt. Servant, YellowFeather ---------- > From: Lanney Ratcliff > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: trapping saquatch > Date: Sunday, May 10, 1998 8:16 AM > > I know it is all in fun, and I'm worse than most in that regard, but I will > be glad when somebody finally catches a damn sasquatch. > Lanney Ratcliff > -----Original Message----- > From: Calamity Jane > To: Mtn. Man > Date: Saturday, May 09, 1998 11:42 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: trapping saquatch > > > >Howdy Fellers! > > If'n you truly are a trying to catch a live Sasquatch let me tell you a > >little trick I learnt down on the Brazos of all places. What you need is > >some female Sasquatch lure! Just lay a trail from one of their waterin' > >holes to where you have built a trap. Actually, if'n you just leave the > >stopper outta' the bottle they just about follow you dang near anywhere. > >Now, I grant you this lure is a mite hard to come by since it contains > >Sasquatch pheramones. I had a lotta time to think this out drivin' them > >mules north - nottin more borin' than starin at the south end of a > >north-bound mule for hundreds of miles! > >What with all them green hides in the back of the wagon a Sasquatch > >wouldn't come any closer than the Black Hills are from Nogales. > > Panther Pete offered to catch me a female Sasquatch ifin' I'd give him a > >jug of corn squeezins I got off some sod busters up on the Missouri. I > >didn't ask him the particulars as I'm not one to pry into a feller's > >private life, but he did catch me one. She gave me the first pheramones > >and told me how to make more - a little like makin' sourdough bread. It > >would've been a lot easier to get more if she'a come with me, but she > >wouldn't let ole' Pete outta her sight. Far as I know they're still livin' > >in the caves down near Del Rio. Nuf Said. > > Calamity Jane > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KP MTN MAN Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Adhesives Date: 10 May 1998 22:31:16 EDT The only adhesive that i know of is made from boiling hooves from deer, elk, etc and then to keep reducing the mixture over moderat heat until you get the consistency you are looking for. Airtight containers will work for a while to store the unused portion. If it gets too thick you can re-hydrate once or twice without ruining the mixture. Any other suggestions anyone has wouyld be welcome. A Greenhorn in training ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken YellowFeather" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Adhesives Date: 10 May 1998 21:27:38 -0500 Howdy John, I'll probably catch it for this, but, seems she could let them use a "white" glue like Elmers or "Tru Bond" Woodworkers Glue. Both are safe for kids to use and used properly will hold wood, leather, and paper products together very well. Lance Grabowski used to swear by rubber cement for all kinds of stuff! Saddles, rawhide, leather and such. I use the Tru Bond for all my wood working projects and it not only works great but cleans up with water. I used to have a recipe for making hoof glue, that I used for gluing the wooden ends of powder horns, but lost it years ago. YellowFeather ---------- > From: JFLEMYTH > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Adhesives > Date: Sunday, May 10, 1998 7:39 PM > > Hello the net! > > Sorry, but I am bringing out another question here. It seems I have a real > talent to get some almost too lively discussion going on the list, but I think > I'm safe this time. > > My wife teaches school, and is always trying to do projects based on 18th and > 19th century tools and technology. Does any body have any old recepies for > adhesives or know some prime ingredients used in them? She has recepies for > making soaps, dies, and other things, but not glues. > > Any imput would be appreciated. (Even things that are not totally period > correct may help with simple projects for children.) Again, thanks for all > this list teaches all us pilgrims! > > John Fleming ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Calico in Fur trade Date: 10 May 1998 22:31:32 -0400 twas good writeing and good reference material my complements to the writer good smooth and bountiful input. will store back for future reference. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dale Nelson Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Adhesives Date: 10 May 1998 20:58:36 -0700 JFLEMYTH wrote: > > Does any body have any old recepies for > adhesives or know some prime ingredients used in them? Hide glue. Boil rawhide. good source of rawhide is dog chewies at the super market. Boil slowly for a long time. Do this outside and down wind from the house or any friends as it tends to be a wee bit whiffy on the lee side. Drain off the concentrate and set aside. It will gel. To use it, warm it up and it will turn to liquid again. Another quick and easy source of hide glue is Knox Gelatin in the jello section of the supermarket. Dale Nelson dnelson@wizzards.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Adhesives Date: 11 May 1998 00:11:24 EDT As i recall, hide glue, made from boiling rawhide and cooking the liquids down was a pretty common substance during the 'period'. I don't have a recipe, but hopefully somebody on the list will be able to help, or having the name will get you in the right direction. Hope this helps. PJ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: rate of twist Date: 11 May 1998 00:14:53 -0400 THE FOLLOWING MESSAGE WAS POSTED TO THE LIST AND i WAS IN DISAGREEMENT WITH IT. i HAVE PREPARED A RESPONSE AND SUBMIT TO THE LIST MY FULL EXPLINATION AS TO WHY I NONCURRED mY RESPONSE FOLLOWS THE MESSAGE. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Sun, 29 Mar 1998 07:02:31 EST JFLEMYTH writes: I know several things that can lead to keyholing, but the first thing I would look at is what is the twist and what is the powder load. For instance, I do most of my informal shooting with a T/C Hawkin in .50 caliber. (Not very period correct, but very fun and easy to clean.) I get great groups with round ball at 25 or 50 yards with patched ball and 60 grains of FFg. However, when I try to shoot conicles, even with 85 grains, I occasionaly keyhole because the rate of twist is too slow to stabilize the bullet at those low end velocities. And that is approaching maximum safe load! What else do you reccomend? You obviously have a lot of experience and knowledge, (something I don't always have!) But I don't see why your against discussing rate of twist. John Fleming TO jOHN AND THE LIST THIS IS THE RESPONSE TO THE TWIST AND KEYHOLEING THING I have been writeing on. TWIST VERSES KEY HOLING BY MICHAEL PIERCE all rights reserved all information is of my own belief and obtained from the references provided and verbally from many experts both living and dead. DISCLAIMER: I have been reading all the posting about the twist of a rifle is what causes keyholing of bullets. First before I start this "POINT OF VIEW" I want to get a few things straight and want to emphasize some important data. 1. THIS DISSERTATION IS NOT TALKING ABOUT MODERN GUNS. 2. IT IS A DISCUSSING ABOUT KEYHOLING AND IT"S CAUSE IN A MUZZLE LOADING RIFLE. 3. I will not be making comparison of "ORANGES TO DEAD FROGS". 4. I do not have a advanced degree in ballistics and am not a specialist or a expert in the field. 5. This presentation includes what I have learned or been taught by those whom I consider experts and documented writings on the subject. 6. I am trying to use a common sense approach with this response. I will cite two extremely good references for the muzzleloading shooter to use to obtain even more detailed info from, and i use them myself. I will not give page numbers for reference in this dissertation because I feel that the info is important enough that any avid muzzle loading shooter will read and have available good reference to help resolve any shooting problem he might have. THE FIRST REFERENCE is "Muzzle loading shooting and winning with the champions" Edited by Don Davis. Available From the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association $8.00 for members, and $10.00 for non members. A outstanding book with each chapter written by not only a winner but a experts in a specific type of shooting IE Off hand, flint, percussion, slug, military musket, shotgun, primitative or whatever. It covers loading, cleaning, shooting, making a gun shoot, basic shooting techniques and everything a new or even a old shooter should know. It gives the average shooter info that he doesn't know. Its just good to jog your memory when you are having a shooting problem and cannot resolve it. THE SECOND REFERENCE is "The Muzzle Loading Caplock Rifle by Ned Roberts" It covers loads, twist, shooting, and about everything you ever wanted to know but were afraid to ask because you were afraid someone would think you were stupid is discussed in detail. It contains input from many old time muzzle loading gunsmiths. it was my bible before "Shooting and winning with the champions" was published. INFORMATION PROVIDED AND BODY OF THIS PAPER Before we look at the causes of keyholing I want to talk about a few terms, muzzle loading bullets, patched round ball, minnie, slugs and a few basic considerations that we must keep in mind before we consider twist as the primary factor for keyholeing. First patched round ball==== everyone that is knowledgeable about them thinks that a round ball is round and the patch is to seal the gases from leaking and to hold the round ball on the powder charge. Some of this is true, This is not accurate and is not the total complete picture. In order to get accuracy from a round ball you first have to get what is called "upset" or base deformation of the ball or bullet when the gun fires. I will use the term upset. The patch that you use is to seal the gases off and to create enough friction to allow the base of the round ball to upset or be pushed into the rifling or the sides of the smoothbore barrel. A patch that rolls or balls up usually indicative of a rough bore or a ball that is of improper diameter. We get flyers with round balls just as we do with slugs or minnies. If you look at a patch that has been shot there should be no holes in it. You should be able to almost reuse the patch for a second shot. if it has black streaks on it, it indicates that you have blowby. Blowby is caused by; a rough, or dirty bore, rifling that has too sharp of edges, improper bullet size to patch combination, or an improper cut crown, too hard or impure lead or insufficient powder charge to get proper upset, just to give a few causes. The primary reason we use pure lead for muzzle loading bullets is because it is soft, cheap and will deform by the powder charge igniting. All bullets have to deform a certain amount in order to obtain any degree of accuracy. A smooth bore must do the same to shoot a round ball properly. a rifle must have proper upset to obtain any amount of real accurcy in a muzzle loading rifle no matter if you are shooting round ball or minnie. This is the compression of the lead and patch against the walls of the barrel and the bullet or balls base It must be done in the proper amount. This compression against the walls creates friction as the bullet starts up the barrel and allows the powder to deform the base of the bullet sufficiently to press the patch and bullet properly into the rifling or the inside of the bore on a smoothbore. (THIS IS BASIC UPSET). If we looked at the part of a bullet that is against the powder at the time of loading you have a nice radius with the patch filling the void between the bullet and the barrel. If you take a gun that shoots good and you pushed a bullet and patch through the barrel it will have a indentation of the patch with some amount of indentation from the rifling. The patch is gripping the bullet and compressed into the rifling a certain amount. If we could look at or stop a minnir or bullet or round ball before it leaves the muzzle of the gun you would note and would be able to see deformation at the base of the bullet. This in effect changes a round ball into a very short conical and it is no longer round. I just finished a fine Muzzle loading traditional flint fire arm. the gun has a 1-20 twist, it's 45 caliber by the twist as most that have been responding to the keyholing problem would say it must be made for minnies or slugs or maxi balls. "WRONG ANSWER BUCKWHEAT" Its a round ball gun, and darn accurate at 25 and 50 yds. It only shoots 38 gr of 3f. You guessed it, "Its a handgun". and it's very powder critical to get good accuracy. 3 to 5 grains of powder makes a difference in group. yet i took the time to work up a load, started at 25 gr and went to 60 gr in 3 AND 2 and 1 gr increments. I found that 38 gr shot the best group. its Accurcy was 5 shots less than 1.5 in at 25 yds, at a rest.(that's 10 ring accuracy on a muzzle loading big bull target by the way) at 25 yds. I had a 5 1/5 in group using 25 gr and at 50 gr had a 6.00 in group. When going from 25 to 50 yds i increase the powder charge by 3 grams. Weather also affects the load of a muzzle loader, temperature and humidity both play a important part. as temperature goes up the powder will burn cleaner. As humidity goes up the powder draws moisture and will not burn as clean and efficient. Had a long discussion with Bill Large over the phone one time. Took him almost a hr of long distance phone bill to communicate some basic rules of thumb for adjusting powder charge for weather conditions. The funny thing is that he was right, it seems to work quite well. "Being the stupid mountain boy that I am", it took several days at the range and shooting to verify that he was right and I did everything possible to try to prove him wrong. He knew his barrels and he knew his muzzle loaders and what it took to make them shoot. he gave me these basic rules for weather: "Bill Large Rules For Adjusting Powder For Weather" Take any day and shoot your muzzle loader and find your accuracy load. Record the temperature and the humidity. lets say that you had a day that the temperature was 70 degrees and the humidity was 40%. You have a 54 cal firearm and you determined that the accuracy load was 80 gr to make your gun hit the 10 ring consistently. you are shooting under a covered firing area so light is not affecting your sighting. RULE: For ever 25 degrees temperature rise above your accuracy base decrease the powder charge by 1 gr. For ever 10% humidity change increase your powder charge by 1 gr. Now we are at the range on another day weather conditions have changed today its 100 degrees temperature, the humidity has gone up to about 80 %. lets do our math in our head. Its about a increase of 3 grams more or less for the powder charge. to get the same accuracy and point of impact center. There are several sources that explain this and each are different a minor bit but all come up with the same conclusion "temperature and humidity affects the accuracy of the muzzle loader". If you had clicker sights on your muzzle loader you could even adjust them in place of changing the powder charge. which is what most round ball target shooters do. "Discussion on twist and exactly what it is" Just exactly what is the rifling twist in a muzzle loading rifle in simple terms that i can understand. We all say it's the number of turns that the rifling makes from the breach to the muzzle of the firearm. Is it the spin on the bullet Yes this is true, but why do they stabilize the round ball or bullet that is going down the barrel. Is it the spinning rotation of the projectile. The spinning does help to stabilize the bullet but other things should be considered other than the spin of the bullet which is truly important for stabilization. Many are going to disagree with this explanation but it seemed logical and was stated by Bill Large to me. Most smooth bore foulers that shoot well usually have long barrels? why is this? Most rifled barrels are shorter and more accurate? why is this? How do I make a shorter barrel to shoot as accurate as a long barrel. Do the groves in the barrel make a difference. yes more surface area for more friction to cause the round ball to upset and stabilize. If you took a smooth bore and pulled groves straight down the barrel, will it make the barrel more accurate. yes because there is more surface area for the round ball to ride on, more friction and more time for the gun to have upset. Now how can I make that short barrel longer yet remain short. We add twist to the groves. Take a piece of string measuring 60 inches, then take a round stick (any diameter) mark a point on both ends parallel to each other. Place the string on one end and wrap the string 1 turn around the stick and the string is now shorter. In effect you have decreased the string length by one stick circumference. This is the length of travel, and in effect have increased the length of the barrel that distance for the bullet to travel. How do I determine exactly what twist that I need to get accuracy for my gun, "not easy". What you have to do is determine the optimum loading for what ever twist you have. That's more simpler, but takes time and work. Barrel makers have calculated and experimented and will recommend a specific twist for the type of projectile you are using. Ie: Round ball, Minnie, Slug, Composite slug, hard lead, soft lead, copper jacket, sabot or whatever your heart desires. Twists will range from 1-12 inches to about 1-70 inches or more depending upon the projectile you are using, and don't forget the projectile diameter either. That is also a key factor in the wonderment of twist. It it possible for the twist to cause keyholing---yes definitely-- but not in round ball only in bullets or conical. Any twist will stabilize a bullet if it has the proper powder charge to obtain proper upset and spin and speed on the bullet to stabilize it. No two are the same, and no conical is ever fully stable. In effect the powder charge is the primary factor for a muzzleloader that determines if the bullet will be most stable in flight. Other factors also effect stability and are just as important. the crown and the muzzle end are the first two I will discuss. The crown must be even and the muzzle must be as square as possible. If not the bullet when it leaves the muzzle in effect is coming out off angle and creates a unstable condition and will cause the bullet to tumble or key hole. You will never get a stable or accurate gun unless this is corrected. This is probably one of the primary factors that causes keyholeing or instability of a bullet in flight. A dirty bore or a rough place in the barrel will do the same thing to a conical or a bullet. in a round ball it will cut or damage the patch or seal and cause a flyer and not a keyhole. A primary factor that cannot be left out is the condition of the ball or minnie or slug being fired. If there is holes, voids or improperly cast skirts you are going to get a flyer. a cracked skirt will make a minnig go into funny places. The most critical part of the minnie is the skirt and when used with the proper powder charge to obtain proper upset is probably one of the most accurate rounds fired in a basic muzzleloader other than a slug gun. It also extends the range of the firearm. Many long range records were set with military muskets fireing minnies. When a minnie is fired the skirt and the base of the bullet are upset into the rifleing obtaining a seal- this is the reason why cleanness is of importance when fireing minnies. bad bores, bad crowns and improper powder charges and bad bullets cause the minnie to flair out at the base in a excesive manner and cause the bullet to become unstable thus causing flyers for minnies only. I can keep explaining all the other factors that will effect the flight of a muzzleloading projectile but feel we will be beating a dead horse. Therefore as you can see I believe that keyholeing in a bullet or minnie is caused by other factors other than twist. Twist is only a single possible factor if you didn't do your homework and develop a proper powder charge. RANDOM KEYHOLEING IS NOT CAUSED BY THE TWIST OF THE RIFLING BUT FROM A DIRTY BORE, BAD BULLET OR MINNIE OR A BAD CROWN OR MUZZLE OF THE RIFLE. IT IS ALSO CAUSED FROM IMPROPER POWDER CHARGE SO THAT THE BULLET IS NOT PROPERLY UPSET FOR THE RIFLING IN THE SPECIFIC FIREARM BEING USES AND FIRED. I feel sure someone will have many differences in opinion but this paper is what i thank is correct and look forward to those who can show me my error in my thinking and expand my knowledge base. THANKS FOR READING THIS JOURNAL AND FULLY TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THE POINTS THAT ARE BEING MADE. please forgive all clerical errors, im' not a english major. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Branson" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Adhesives Date: 10 May 1998 22:22:31 -0500 The only glue I'm personally familiar with is the hide or hoof variety as it is called by some. I have used both the commercial type and I have boiled buffalo hooves to get the genuine variety. It is strong stuff(odor) and it will stink up a kitchen. I have used it to wrap sinew on arrows and bows. It has very strong adhesive quality. My wife uses it to create old style earth paints for parfleche (rawhide). It works great. Another type of glue can be obtained by boiling or cooking down the prickly pear cactus leaves we have here in Colorado. We have mixed the juice with earth pigment and created some nice paint for different applications. It also works quite well. If you have access to prickly pear cactus and powdered earth pigment or common poster paint such as is used in ele. school then bingo you have a nice project for the students. Just cut out some white poster board parfleche shapes and mix up some prickly pear juice with paint and have the students paint some great native american designs. My wife who is S. Ute has done this with museum field trips of students in Sante Fe, Miami, and Des Moine. It works well. Go to the book store and buy a nice rawhide design book such as the new one; American Indian Parfleche by Gaylord Torrence and you will find many a design. Another choice is; Indian rawhide by Mabel Morrow. If you would like to try to make real rawhide then step one head to the slaughter house. Next read The Indian tipi by Reginald and Gladys Laubin. Good luck. M. Branson -----Original Message----- >Hello the net! > >Sorry, but I am bringing out another question here. It seems I have a real >talent to get some almost too lively discussion going on the list, but I think >I'm safe this time. > >My wife teaches school, and is always trying to do projects based on 18th and >19th century tools and technology. Does any body have any old recepies for >adhesives or know some prime ingredients used in them? She has recepies for >making soaps, dies, and other things, but not glues. > >Any imput would be appreciated. (Even things that are not totally period >correct may help with simple projects for children.) Again, thanks for all >this list teaches all us pilgrims! > >John Fleming > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Glenn Darilek Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Adhesives Date: 11 May 1998 06:32:53 -0500 When I was in elementary school, we would make paste for paper using white flour and water. After a while, it would go rotten, so sometimes we also put salt in it to help preserve it. I think this formula is used for papier-mache so it might be a period recepe. http://www.bjorn.net/prod.htm lists the steps for making commercial hide glue http://inet.ed.gov/pubs/parents/Science/sticky.html is a lesson plan for doing somewhat what you wanted Iron Burner ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JFLEMYTH Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: rate of twist Date: 11 May 1998 07:55:52 EDT Hawk, I have not had a lot of time to process the posting you made, but so far I agree with all I have read of it. When I wrote, it was because some people seemed to think rate of twist was not even a consideration. To me, its a major one. I never wanted to sound like it was the only one! In any case, I printed out a hard copy of your posting, and really have enjoyed it so far. I look foreward to getting into it deeper. I have always enjoyed your postings on this list. Have a good one. I am positive you earned it. John. P.S., I must admit though, I am fighting this terrible urge to say my round ball load seems to be keyholing too, but it is realy hard to tell! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kat Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Adhesives Date: 11 May 1998 08:35:34 -0400 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD7CB8.ABE85A40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gum arabic is the basis for most glues. It is rabbit hide derived. = Making most glue is a nasty smelly project in my experience. I hope = someone can prove me wrong so I can finally make some to go with = everything else! Kat ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD7CB8.ABE85A40 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IgMMAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYA6AEAAAEAAAAQAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAAVwAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGhpc3RfdGV4dEBsaXN0 cy54bWlzc2lvbi5jb20AU01UUABoaXN0X3RleHRAbGlzdHMueG1pc3Npb24uY29tAAAeAAIwAQAA AAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AAzABAAAAHQAAAGhpc3RfdGV4dEBsaXN0cy54bWlzc2lvbi5jb20AAAAA AwAVDAEAAAADAP4PBgAAAB4AATABAAAAHwAAACdoaXN0X3RleHRAbGlzdHMueG1pc3Npb24uY29t JwAAAgELMAEAAAAiAAAAU01UUDpISVNUX1RFWFRATElTVFMuWE1JU1NJT04uQ09NAAAAAwAAOQAA AAALAEA6AQAAAB4A9l8BAAAAHQAAAGhpc3RfdGV4dEBsaXN0cy54bWlzc2lvbi5jb20AAAAAAgH3 XwEAAABXAAAAAAAAAIErH6S+oxAZnW4A3QEPVAIAAAAAaGlzdF90ZXh0QGxpc3RzLnhtaXNzaW9u LmNvbQBTTVRQAGhpc3RfdGV4dEBsaXN0cy54bWlzc2lvbi5jb20AAAMA/V8BAAAAAwD/XwAAAAAC AfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAACoXQBBIABAB4AAABSRTogTXRNYW4tTGlzdDogUmU6IEFkaGVzaXZlcwCe CQEFgAMADgAAAM4HBQALAAgAIwAiAAEAMwEBIIADAA4AAADOBwUACwAIACIADgABAB4BAQmAAQAh AAAARkNGRThGNEFDRTdDQkQxMTgxOTg2MjQxNDY2M0I5MDYATAcBA5AGADwEAAAhAAAACwACAAEA AAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADAC4AAAAAAAMANgAAAAAAQAA5AIAz3UrZfL0BHgBw AAEAAAAeAAAAUkU6IE10TWFuLUxpc3Q6IFJlOiBBZGhlc2l2ZXMAAAACAXEAAQAAABYAAAABvXzZ St0BF7+D6KAR0bYZgHE3igLQAAAeAB4MAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AHwwBAAAADwAAAGthdEBq YW5yaXguY29tAAADAAYQcjDrHQMABxCuAAAAHgAIEAEAAABlAAAAR1VNQVJBQklDSVNUSEVCQVNJ U0ZPUk1PU1RHTFVFU0lUSVNSQUJCSVRISURFREVSSVZFRE1BS0lOR01PU1RHTFVFSVNBTkFTVFlT TUVMTFlQUk9KRUNUSU5NWUVYUEVSSUVOQwAAAAACAQkQAQAAAB8BAAAbAQAATgEAAExaRnWXYb3+ dwAKAQMB9yACpAPjAgBjgmgKwHNldDAgBxPlAoB9CoF1YwBQCwMLYEBuZzEwMzMCsSAwR3VtIArA AaBpYwIgBAAgdGhlIGK+YQCQBCACEAXABGBzBUDCZwpBcy4gSQVAErGnElEScAVAaGkBACAEgYxp dgmAFGBNYWsLgEZnE7gSomEgbhMwdEh5IHMHgGxsF9BwXQNgagWQFJEDoG0X0GXMeHAGcQnwY2UU YRVAbm8ZYBfgA3BlAiATAGPfA5EYYRXgE7ATAHcDYBZx9xpwGfEa8mYLgAdAGDEAwO5rGlQS0Bww ZxwwA/AS4PMZMBXgcnkS4BZiGBAPsI4hCqIKhAqAS2F0H4oLH4QQcQAh0AADABAQAAAAAAMAERAA AAAAAwCAEP////9AAAcwQPJbG9l8vQFAAAgwQPJbG9l8vQELAACACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAA AAADhQAAAAAAAAMAAoAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAABCFAAAAAAAAAwAFgAggBgAAAAAAwAAA AAAAAEYAAAAAUoUAALcNAAAeACWACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAABUhQAAAQAAAAQAAAA4LjAA AwAmgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAAYUAAAAAAAALAC+ACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAO hQAAAAAAAAMAMIAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAABGFAAAAAAAAAwAygAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAA AEYAAAAAGIUAAAAAAAAeAEGACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAA2hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgBC gAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAN4UAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4AQ4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABG AAAAADiFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAD0AAQAAAAUAAABSRTogAAAAAAMADTT9NwAApMg= ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD7CB8.ABE85A40-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gourd seeds Date: 11 May 1998 05:48:02 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD7CA0.5C391BA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well Ken If the seeds will germinate they will do fine. I don't know where you live but if you have good sunshine and lots of water. They'll should do fine. If you don't know how to germinate the seeds let me know. Now I didn't grow any in the northwest because of our fickle weather but my daughter is trying some this year. Later Jon T ---------- : From: Carpenter Family : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gourd seeds : Date: Sunday, May 10, 1998 8:25 AM : : JON P TOWNS wrote: : > : > I have some canteen gourd seeds : Dear Jon and the list: : I have a canteen quality gourd that I haven't developed into a canteen : as yet. It still contains the seeds. I got this gourd at rondyvoo : maybe five years ago. Do you thinks the seeds will grow and if so, how : do I use them? I don't have a green thumb. Most everything I try to : grow, dies. : : Ken C (Carp) : ------=_NextPart_000_01BD7CA0.5C391BA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Well Ken If the seeds will germinate = they will do fine.  I don't know where you live but if you have = good sunshine and lots of water.  They'll should do fine.  If = you don't know how to germinate the seeds let me know.  Now I = didn't grow any in the northwest because of our fickle weather but my = daughter is trying some this year.  Later Jon T =  

----------
: From: Carpenter Family <kcarpenter@bigbear.net>
: To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gourd seeds
: Date: = Sunday, May 10, 1998 8:25 AM
:
: JON P TOWNS wrote:
: > =
: > I have some canteen gourd seeds  
: Dear Jon and the = list:
: I have a canteen quality gourd that I haven't developed into = a canteen
: as yet.  It still contains the seeds.  I got = this gourd at rondyvoo
: maybe five years ago.  Do you thinks = the seeds will grow and if so, how
: do I use them?  I don't = have a green thumb.  Most everything I try to
: grow, = dies.
:
: Ken C (Carp)
:

------=_NextPart_000_01BD7CA0.5C391BA0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gourd seeds Date: 11 May 1998 08:55:17 -0600 (CST) Thanks, Jon, but I have a new crop in the ground now, looking nice and just starting to climb. I should have a nice batch for canteens this fall. I still have plenty o' seeds from the crop of 2 years ago. >I have some canteen gourd seeds for anyone who wants them send me a self >addressed envelope and I will stick them in a plastic bag in a damp paper >towel and they should be ready to put in a starter pot. ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coping with a fire ban--thanks! Date: 11 May 1998 10:07:29 -0600 Thanks to everyone for the great suggestions! Yes, the fire ban is a PITA, but it's a grim reality--I have a feeling we're beginning to learn what it's been like in California the last few years. Everything is incredibly dry & hot, and there is no rain in the forecast. Although the hot weather means that spring is almost a month early here, everyone's hoping & praying for heavy rain. In southern Alberta, we had a major grass fire in December; it destroyed homes, killed cattle, and razed square miles of grazing land. (It was started by someone who thought it was safe to burn his trash, and then the wind began to blow...) In the Rockies, a forest fire is burning near the Trans-Canada Highway in Banff National Park (set off by campers who ignored the fire ban). In northern Alberta's boreal forest, the town of Swan Hills has been evacuated once already (due to a fire started by sparks thrown from the rails by a moving train), and everyone who has returned is still on evacuation alert--and packing up their valuables just in case. There are many other forest fires burning out of control as well--and this is a month BEFORE the usual start of our fire season. So, once again, thanks for all the ideas, and I'm hoping for several weeks of steady rain (but no thunderstorms) so that I won't need to use any of them. 'Cause, as someone already mentioned, fire bans suck. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gary Bell Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Adhesives Date: 11 May 1998 09:00:39 -0700 Gum arabic is indeed found in all sorts of products today, acting as an adhesive or binder, including lots of foods and drug products. It is literally the concentrated sap from African acacia trees (a spectacularly thorny tree common to African desert areas). It is unfortunately not related to hide/hoof glues (which are generally made from any animal sources of collagen protein) about which there have been several nice postings lately. I particularly liked the recently posted notion of makin' some hide glue out of doggie chew rawhide, and the schoolteacher's posting today from Glenn Darilek. Cookin' down animal protein glue is indeed a smelly process! You can buy the stuff already cooked into a powder at old style hardware stores and cabinet maker supply businesses. This stuff certainly did serve, and still can serve as a wonderful glue. The term glue pot reefers to hide glue's need to be heated to melting and applied hot. Think Hot-Melt glue, old style and you will get the right idea. This collagen protein is used in the original animals as the chief glue, holding things together, repairing damage (scar tissue) and making wonderfully strong and light composite structures like bone, hide, fur and hoofs from various fibers, kinda predating fiberglass and reinforced concrete but along the same engineering lines. I noted several submissions about the adhesive properties of traditional paint bases, egg white and milk proteins, basically. Casein glue, available still today is precipitated from milk by cooking with a mild acid, and is both a fine water soluble paint base and glue. Paints have used the adhesive properties of the albumen protein in egg white and casein in milk for many centuries. I have not spotted recent postings under this adhesive heading about various tree sap/resin adhesives, from the boiled pitch used in the illustrious birch bark canoes to the much discussed pine tar. I suppose that found "geologic" sources of asphalt tar would fall into a similar category, in terms of its utility as a historic adhesive, ultimately derived from trees and plants. I do not know whether the seaweed based adhesives we know as mucilage were in common use in the historic time and place of our concentration, perhaps somebody out there will know. In some applications plaster like compounds serve as adhesives too, from mortaring brick and stone to again making paint bases. I suppose that it takes only a little imagination and experience to judge how strong most of these adhesives are, and where they are each better suited. In my experience the hide glues are very strong and particularly easy to use once you are set up with a heated glue pot. They are the choice adhesive for making guitars/violins, and fancy woodworking still today. The other adhesives are much less strong, and while well suited as a paint base would not likely hold a broken rifle stock together long. Worth noting here is the Native American's resourceful use of shrinking wraps of soaked rawhide to repair and sometimes simply to decorate rifles, tip arrows and lances, etc.. I am leading into the suggestion that if strength is required of these adhesives sometimes a mechanical component like stitched sinew or rawhide wrap or a strategically placed metal rivet is needed to compliment the adhesive of choice. I leave to the conscience of the reenacter the choice of using modern adhesives, epoxy, cyanoacrylate (Krazy Glue), and a plethora of others, in places where they would do the job the best and be hard to detect. I have for example knife scales held on mostly by epoxy. Artful use of stitches and rivets serve to conceal my unorthodoxy. kat wrote: > Gum arabic is the basis for most glues. It is rabbit hide derived. Making most glue is a nasty smelly project in my experience. I hope someone can prove me wrong so I can finally make some to go with everything else! > > Kat > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > Part 1.2 Type: application/ms-tnef > Encoding: base64 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Francis Parkman and "The Oregon Trail" Date: 11 May 1998 10:16:15 -0600 (CST) Parkman gives good first hand info on Bent's Fort and trading on the southern plains. He was a good observer. Cheers, HBC >Hello the List, >I'm just about finished reading a 1923 edition of Parkman's "The Oregon Trail" >that I picked up in an antique store. I mention this because the book was >apparently written from a diary about a hunting trip in the spring of >1846....and had little, or nothing to do about the Oregon Trail. >For those that have not read the book, Parkman and his companion Shaw, left >St. Louis on the 28th of April 1846, ...."on a tour of curiosity and >amusement to the Rocky Mountains." He, Parkman, gives an outstanding account >of what it was like to travel in the country, hunt buffalo, meet some great >"trappers", and live with the Indians. The book has several illustrations by >Frederic Remington and I at times, had trouble putting the book down.....good >reading for folks like us! > >I'm headed to Charlotte, NC for a couple weeks of flight training.... anything >happen there I should know about? And what should a pilot/mountianman check >out while I'm in the neighborhood.....thanks. > >Steve ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gourd seeds Date: 11 May 1998 10:06:57 -0600 (CST) >JON P TOWNS wrote: >> >> I have some canteen gourd seeds >Dear Jon and the list: >I have a canteen quality gourd that I haven't developed into a canteen >as yet. It still contains the seeds. I got this gourd at rondyvoo >maybe five years ago. Do you thinks the seeds will grow and if so, how >do I use them? I don't have a green thumb. Most everything I try to >grow, dies. > >Ken C (Carp) Ken and others, It's not too late to plant them if you do it SOON. I'd put the seeds in a sunny spot. Be mindful of shade trees that haven't yet filled out. A spot that appears sunny now might not be in a month. The area should be in direct sun most of the day. Fertilize the ground with cow manure of a commercial NATURAL fertilizer. Don't plant deeper than about 2-3 inches (that's a guestimate). Keep them wet till they germinate or sprout (don't flood them) then water about every other day. I use a soaker hose (the black recycled rubber kind) which makes watering a lot easier. It conserves water, too. Once they start getting about 6" tall train them to climb by placing woven wire upright against them Mine goes at an angle from in front of the plants to against the fence behind them The wire should be strong and well secured because eventually it's going to have to support a lot of weight. Then the rest is easy. Keep pets out with a woven wire fence. Dogs that like to chew or get into bushes for shade would like the cool, shady space on hot days, but don't let them in. They will ruin them (personal experience) The plants will continue to grow if they have plenty of water. Planting them now won't give them a long growing season, because they need at least a month or more before they're at climbing height, but they will grow. They just might not get very large. Still, it's fun to watch them grow and watch the gourds appear and develop. Just keep them wet and they'll grow. Stems will begin to dry toward mid to late October. Harvest after the first heavy frost and dry them in a place with plenty of circulation to avoid too much mold. Next lesson, cleaning and waxing. Cheers, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coping with a fire ban Date: 11 May 1998 11:22:49 -0600 (CST) "Crows??" "Bugs Boys?" What;'s that all about. Never heard of 'em. Explain. HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Wefarmasmidgen" Subject: MtMan-List: Adhesives Date: 11 May 1998 13:17:35 -0500 While not a true adhesive, a short-term paste can be made from water and flour. This is especially appropriate for young school children. It does a respectable job holding paper together. I don't use proportions; I just mix water into flour until it is the consistency of cream and then brush it on. I don't know about other items, but I suspect it wouldn't be much use for items such as wood or leather. Sally Bridgham at Wefarmasmidgen in Beautiful Southwestern Wisconsin wefarm@pcii.net Farm Trails http://www.farmtrails.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Cliff " Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Adhesives Date: 11 May 1998 13:16:33 -0400 I have once read about using pitch pine sap for making glue. If I remember correctly it was boiled slowly to a sticky mass. i remember the author stating he mixed powdered clam shell and/or pot ash for different uses. I'm sure it was in one of Tom Brown's books who supposedly learned his wilderness skills from an old Apache here on the East Coast. (go figure) Cliff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: gourd seeds Date: 11 May 1998 17:49:37 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD7D05.2A294C60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I FORGOT PLEASE STAMP THAT ENVELOPE THANKS JON T ---------- I have some canteen gourd seeds for anyone who wants them send me a self addressed envelope and I will stick them in a plastic bag in a damp paper towel and they should be ready to put in a starter pot. If you don't them already germinated let me know and I'll send them dry. Just send the replies to Jon Towns P O Box 143 Manchester WA 98353 I'll enclose about a dozen that should give everyone who wants them enough to grow this summer. They are hard to dry these came from Phoenix AZ ------=_NextPart_000_01BD7D05.2A294C60 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I FORGOT PLEASE STAMP THAT ENVELOPE = THANKS JON T

----------
From: JON P TOWNS <AMM944@prodigy.net>
To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com; ammlist@lists.xmission.com
Subject: gourd seeds
Date: Saturday, May 09, = 1998 7:28 PM

I have some canteen gourd seeds for anyone who wants = them send me a self addressed envelope and I will stick them in a = plastic bag in a damp paper towel and they should be ready to put in a = starter pot.  If you don't them already germinated let me know and = I'll send them dry.  Just send the replies to
Jon Towns
P O = Box 143
Manchester WA 98353

I'll enclose about a dozen that = should give everyone who wants them enough to grow this summer. =  They are hard to dry these came from Phoenix AZ =    

------=_NextPart_000_01BD7D05.2A294C60-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Adhesives Date: 11 May 1998 22:16:56 EDT John, Most of the rank horses I've been forced to ride, I always threatened to turn them into to glue......seems to get their attention and may well be a good source. Steve PS Keyholing roundballs may explain all my missed shots...... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Blue Rider Subject: Re: MtMan-List: gourd seeds Date: 11 May 1998 14:59:32 -1000 JON P TOWNS wrote: > > Well Ken If the seeds will germinate they will do fine. I don't know > where you live but if you have good sunshine and lots of water. > They'll should do fine. If you don't know how to germinate the seeds > let me know. Now I didn't grow any in the northwest because of our > fickle weather but my daughter is trying some this year. Later Jon T > > Sigh! Here in Hawaii, the fruit flies get all the stuff like gourds unless you have a screen house. The ancient Hawaiians made more things than I can even remember from gourds. Then came the haoles (us white folks) with fruit flies. Hardly anybody grows them anymore, mores the pity. Good luck with y'alls. Aloha Blue ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Blue Rider Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Adhesives Date: 11 May 1998 14:54:10 -1000 kat wrote: > > Gum arabic is the basis for most glues. It is rabbit hide derived. > Making most glue is a nasty smelly project in my experience. I hope > someone can prove me wrong so I can finally make some to go with > everything else! > > Kat > Kat; Gum Arabic comes from rabbit hides?? I always thought it came from plants. Could well be wrong, too. Aloha Blue > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken " Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Adhesives Date: 11 May 1998 22:00:43 -0500 Gum arabic is obtained from several species of acacia. YellowFeather ---------- > From: Blue Rider > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Adhesives > Date: Monday, May 11, 1998 7:54 PM > > kat wrote: > > > > Gum arabic is the basis for most glues. It is rabbit hide derived. > > Making most glue is a nasty smelly project in my experience. I hope > > someone can prove me wrong so I can finally make some to go with > > everything else! > > > > Kat > > > > Kat; > Gum Arabic comes from rabbit hides?? I always thought it came from > plants. Could well be wrong, too. > > Aloha > Blue > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bspen@aye.net (Bob Spencer) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Adhesives Date: 11 May 1998 23:23:17 -0400 >kat wrote: >> >> Gum arabic is the basis for most glues. It is rabbit hide derived. Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Tenth Edition: Gum arabic n (14c) a water-soluble gum obtained from several acacias (esp. Acacia senegal) and used esp. in the manufacture of inks, adhesives, pharmaceuticals, and confections Bob Bob Spencer http://www.aye.net/~bspen/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Adhesives Date: 12 May 1998 00:19:51 EDT In a world of animal, vegetable and mineral, Gum Arabic is vegetable, from the Gum or Acacia plant, definitely not processed from anything animal. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Branson" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Adhesives Date: 11 May 1998 22:07:01 -0500 Very good essay Gary. In reference to your comments about shrinking rawhide. I once built a .54 cal rifle a hawken flintlock back in 1975 when John Baird and the other writers were talking about hawken rifles and flintlocks. This rifle had a nicely figured walnut stock. It was also somewhat brittle around the wrist. Well, I dropped it one day in the mtns and broke it right through the wrist. Rather than re-stocking it I decided this was a good time to find out if the old stories were right. I heated some water and soaked a piece of rawhide until it was as wet as a car wash chamois, I sewed it to the stock wet and used a piece of the same rawhide as the thread. It took several days to dry out completly. By the time it was dry it was as hard as a table top. I sold the gun a year later. The whole thing worked so well that last year a fella walked up to me at the Denver gun show and told me he owned that hawken with the rawhide wrist. It has lasted for 21 years and the wrist is still broken under the rawhide. I was quite surprised. M. Branson ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: gourd seeds Date: 12 May 1998 00:15:24 -0400 john i put mine on the porch and jumped up and down on it to make sure it had good track on it and stamped it inside and out. envelope was included. best to you YMHOS "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Mon, 11 May 1998 17:49:37 -0700 "JON P TOWNS" writes: >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > >------=_NextPart_000_01BD7D05.2A294C60 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >I FORGOT PLEASE STAMP THAT ENVELOPE THANKS JON T > >---------- >From: JON P TOWNS >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com; ammlist@lists.xmission.com >Subject: gourd seeds >Date: Saturday, May 09, 1998 7:28 PM > >I have some canteen gourd seeds for anyone who wants them send me a >self >addressed envelope and I will stick them in a plastic bag in a damp >paper >towel and they should be ready to put in a starter pot. If you don't >them >already germinated let me know and I'll send them dry. Just send the >replies to >Jon Towns >P O Box 143 >Manchester WA 98353 > >I'll enclose about a dozen that should give everyone who wants them >enough >to grow this summer. They are hard to dry these came from Phoenix AZ > > >------=_NextPart_000_01BD7D05.2A294C60 >Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >

color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">I FORGOT PLEASE STAMP THAT ENVELOPE = >THANKS JON T

----------
From: JON P TOWNS <color=3D"#0000FF">AMM944@prodigy.netcolor=3D"#000000">>
To: color=3D"#0000FF">hist_text@lists.xmission.comcolor=3D"#000000">; color=3D"#0000FF">ammlist@lists.xmission.comcolor=3D"#000000">
Subject: gourd seeds
Date: Saturday, May 09, >= >1998 7:28 PM

I have some canteen gourd seeds for anyone who >wants = >them send me a self addressed envelope and I will stick them in a = >plastic bag in a damp paper towel and they should be ready to put in a >= >starter pot.  If you don't them already germinated let me know >and = >I'll send them dry.  Just send the replies to
Jon Towns
P >O = >Box 143
Manchester WA 98353

I'll enclose about a dozen that >= >should give everyone who wants them enough to grow this summer. = > They are hard to dry these came from Phoenix AZ = >   

> >------=_NextPart_000_01BD7D05.2A294C60-- > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ITWHEELER Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Coping with a fire ban--thanks! Date: 12 May 1998 00:34:32 EDT In a message dated 98-05-11 12:15:13 EDT, you write: << agottfre@telusplanet.net >> you must be one hell of a gall (spelling) thanks for your info canada still seems like the other side of the moon to me. iron tounge ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Nauga Mok Subject: MtMan-List: Bug's Boys Date: 12 May 1998 00:41:01 EDT In a message dated 98-05-11 14:57:22 EDT, you write: << "Crows??" "Bugs Boys?" Nope -- Blackfoot. < What's that all about. Never heard of 'em. >> Supposedly either Hudson Bay or Northwest was paying the Blackfoot to raid, pillage, & generaly harass the American trading companies & free trappers in the northern Rockies. The main thought behind this was the U.S. claim on this territory wasn't realy secure & if it could be brought under the control of H.B. or NW, it gave England a better chance to shift the Canadian border farther South. One of the "big wigs" in either H.B. or NW was nicknamed "Bugs" -- hence "Bug's Boys" in reference to the Blackfoot tribes. Not sure if this aledged practice was in fact being carried on, but the term has somehow stuck. Then again, it coulda come from some writer's imagination, 'cuz I've never seen it used in a first hand account. NM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kat Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Adhesives Date: 12 May 1998 08:14:38 -0400 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD7D7E.3DA7CB80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From the info I have gotten from the list, the Art Instructer I had must = have been mistaken. Perhaps there is another adhesive source that = looks/sounds a lot like gum arabic that is from rabbit hide? Hmmmmm.=20 Kat=20 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD7D7E.3DA7CB80 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IhMMAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYA6AEAAAEAAAAQAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAAVwAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAGhpc3RfdGV4dEBsaXN0 cy54bWlzc2lvbi5jb20AU01UUABoaXN0X3RleHRAbGlzdHMueG1pc3Npb24uY29tAAAeAAIwAQAA AAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AAzABAAAAHQAAAGhpc3RfdGV4dEBsaXN0cy54bWlzc2lvbi5jb20AAAAA AwAVDAEAAAADAP4PBgAAAB4AATABAAAAHwAAACdoaXN0X3RleHRAbGlzdHMueG1pc3Npb24uY29t JwAAAgELMAEAAAAiAAAAU01UUDpISVNUX1RFWFRATElTVFMuWE1JU1NJT04uQ09NAAAAAwAAOQAA AAALAEA6AQAAAB4A9l8BAAAAHQAAAGhpc3RfdGV4dEBsaXN0cy54bWlzc2lvbi5jb20AAAAAAgH3 XwEAAABXAAAAAAAAAIErH6S+oxAZnW4A3QEPVAIAAAAAaGlzdF90ZXh0QGxpc3RzLnhtaXNzaW9u LmNvbQBTTVRQAGhpc3RfdGV4dEBsaXN0cy54bWlzc2lvbi5jb20AAAMA/V8BAAAAAwD/XwAAAAAC AfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAACoXQBBIABAB4AAABSRTogTXRNYW4tTGlzdDogUmU6IEFkaGVzaXZlcwCe CQEFgAMADgAAAM4HBQAMAAgADgAmAAIAJAEBIIADAA4AAADOBwUADAAIAA0ACAACAAUBAQmAAQAh AAAAMUI5MzNCODA5QzdEQkQxMTgxOTg2MjQxNDY2M0I5MDYA9gYBA5AGACwEAAAhAAAACwACAAEA AAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADAC4AAAAAAAMANgAAAAAAQAA5AEAqA4mffb0BHgBw AAEAAAAeAAAAUkU6IE10TWFuLUxpc3Q6IFJlOiBBZGhlc2l2ZXMAAAACAXEAAQAAABYAAAABvX2f iPs2w1Oj6W4R0bYZgHE3igLQAAAeAB4MAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AHwwBAAAADwAAAGthdEBq YW5yaXguY29tAAADAAYQT4MKbAMABxCsAAAAHgAIEAEAAABlAAAARlJPTVRIRUlORk9JSEFWRUdP VFRFTkZST01USEVMSVNULFRIRUFSVElOU1RSVUNURVJJSEFETVVTVEhBVkVCRUVOTUlTVEFLRU5Q RVJIQVBTVEhFUkVJU0FOT1RIRVJBREhFUwAAAAACAQkQAQAAAA4BAAAKAQAARwEAAExaRnXIPCTw dwAKAQMB9yACpAPjAgBjgmgKwHNldDAgBxPlAoB9CoF1YwBQCwMLYEBuZzEwMzMCsSCCRgNhIHRo ZSALgFECECBJIA+AdhJwZ7ZvAkAJ8CADUhJDbAQAXHQsEkMHEAVASQCAdB5yELATgAXAEuJkIG12 dRRwEvRiCeEWMBRhYWJrCfAuIFAEkA+AcP8EIBJRCXASgAQgAHATYBhhXRjQZBJgAJATIXMIYWMb EnASUGEFQAkAb2tzci8Z8W5kGMEaoRqRaTsXgBNAdRIwCsABoGljvxpUGLETwxyBHKAWcWkBAPA/ IEhtHpIXsAqiCoS9CoBLGoEfCh8EEHEAIWAAAAMAEBAAAAAAAwAREAAAAAADAIAQ/////0AABzBA DFJTn329AUAACDBADFJTn329AQsAAIAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAAOFAAAAAAAAAwACgAgg BgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAEIUAAAAAAAADAAWACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAABShQAAtw0A AB4AJYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAFSFAAABAAAABAAAADguMAADACaACCAGAAAAAADAAAAA AAAARgAAAAABhQAAAAAAAAsAL4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAA6FAAAAAAAAAwAwgAggBgAA AAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAEYUAAAAAAAADADKACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAYhQAAAAAAAB4A QYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADaFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAEKACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAA RgAAAAA3hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgBDgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAOIUAAAEAAAABAAAA AAAAAB4APQABAAAABQAAAFJFOiAAAAAAAwANNP03AADWug== ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD7D7E.3DA7CB80-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: MtMan-List: Buying hide Glue Date: 12 May 1998 08:59:04 -0600 Here is a good place to buy hide glue. It is easier to buy than make. Woodworker Supply 1-800-645-9292 Moser's Hide glue Pearl Hide glue is general all purpose glue-$5.95/lb Ground Hide glue is more pure for applications requiring a higher tack and a stronger bond-$7.55/lb Some people mix this with liquid hide glue for a slower drying time, you can buy this also from Wordworker's Supply Bowmakers like to mix the pure hide glue and liquid together I use both and they work great, I also use pine pitch to make repairs Once the hide glue drys, you can carry it in a bag and just rehydrate it with water, Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Write for custom tanning prices We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and hair on robes Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Sickler, Louis L" Subject: MtMan-List: Adhesives Date: 12 May 1998 11:38:47 -0600 Ho the List: In response to John Fleming's inquiry about animal hide glue, I found a commercial source that might be of interest to those unable / not willing to make their own. It is Moscow Hide & Fur 208-882-0601 www.hideandfur.com They sell 5 oz bags for $6.00 each, with instructions for use. I haven't tried it, but my order goes in today. YMHOS, Red Coyote ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gary Bell Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Adhesives Date: 12 May 1998 11:20:03 -0700 Rabbit hide is indeed specifically made into a hide glue, sometimes called rabbit sizing, used particularly for a coating before laying on gold leaf to "gild" things, like picture frames, statues, etc.. A gum arabic adhesive would also serve this purpose, (although less well) and is sometimes used. Perhaps the confusion originated there.... Gary Bell (still working on a 'Vous name, but just the same let's NOT use Sticky, OK?) kat wrote: > >From the info I have gotten from the list, the Art Instructer I had must have been mistaken. Perhaps there is another adhesive source that looks/sounds a lot like gum arabic that is from rabbit hide? Hmmmmm. > > Kat > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > Part 1.2 Type: application/ms-tnef > Encoding: base64 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Adhesives Date: 12 May 1998 15:37:30 -0400 Hi, Did you know that Knox unflavored Gelatin is just fancy hide glue???? Think of that next time you dig into your Jello!! Dennis Miles AMM#1622 Double Edge Forge Sickler, Louis L wrote: > Ho the List: > > In response to John Fleming's inquiry about animal hide glue, I found a > commercial source that might be of interest to those unable / not willing to > make their own. It is > > Moscow Hide & Fur > 208-882-0601 > www.hideandfur.com > > They sell 5 oz bags for $6.00 each, with instructions for use. > > I haven't tried it, but my order goes in today. > > YMHOS, > Red Coyote ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Bug's Boys,, Date: 12 May 1998 19:11:04 +0000 Small disagreement - Bugs Boys was from the term the Devil's Sons. Can't remember where I read it, a long time ago. DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS --- PROPRIETORS OF THE NADA TRADING COMPANY Nauga Mok wrote: >In a message dated 98-05-11 14:57:22 EDT, you write: > ><< "Crows??" "Bugs Boys?" > >Nope -- Blackfoot. > >< What's that all about. Never heard of 'em. >> > >Supposedly either Hudson Bay or Northwest was paying the Blackfoot to raid, >pillage, & generaly harass the American trading companies & free trappers in >the northern Rockies. The main thought behind this was the U.S. claim on this >territory wasn't realy secure & if it could be brought under the control of >H.B. or NW, it gave England a better chance to shift the Canadian border >farther South. One of the "big wigs" in either H.B. or NW was nicknamed >"Bugs" -- hence "Bug's Boys" in reference to the Blackfoot tribes. Not sure >if this aledged practice was in fact being carried on, but the term has >somehow stuck. Then again, it coulda come from some writer's imagination, >'cuz I've never seen it used in a first hand account. > >NM > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > >Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com > (SMTPD32-4.03) id A8602EB0108; Tue, 12 May 1998 08:10:40 MST >Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.82 #1) > id 0yZFeT-0004xh-00; Tue, 12 May 1998 08:03:29 -0600 >Received: from (xmission.xmission.com) [198.60.22.2] (drudy) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) > id 0yZFeR-0004xK-00; Tue, 12 May 1998 08:03:27 -0600 >Received: (from drudy@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.8/8.7.5) id >IAA11162 for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Tue, 12 May 1998 08:03:25 -0600 (MDT) >Received: from (imo28.mx.aol.com) [198.81.17.72] > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) > id 0yZ6tD-0004uo-00; Mon, 11 May 1998 22:42:07 -0600 >Received: from NaugaMok@aol.com > by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id ICEIa25488 > for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 00:41:01 -0400 (EDT) >From: Nauga Mok >Message-ID: >Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 00:41:01 EDT >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Subject: MtMan-List: Bug's Boys >Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 >Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >X-UIDL: 891663313 >Status: U > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean Rudy Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Bug's Boys,, Date: 12 May 1998 22:15:44 -0600 At 07:11 PM 5/12/98 +0000, Don Keas wrote: >Small disagreement - Bugs Boys was from the term the Devil's Sons. Can't >remember where I read it, a long time ago. > >From "River of the West" - Joe Meek's story as told to Frances Fuller Victor: "The Blackfeet were the tribe most dreaded in the Rocky Mountains, and went by the name of " Bugs Boys," which rendered into good English, meant "the devil's own."" Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Adhesives Date: 13 May 1998 07:25:42 -0500 You wrote: Did you know that Knox unflavored Gelatin is just fancy hide glue???? Dennis, How would you prepare the Knox for using it as glue? Your most humble servant, Scott Allen Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick Fairplay, MD http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dale Nelson Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bug's Boys Date: 13 May 1998 05:25:40 -0700 Nauga Mok wrote: > > One of the "big wigs" in either H.B. or NW was nicknamed > "Bugs" -- hence "Bug's Boys" in reference to the Blackfoot tribes. Bugs Boys is short for Belzebub or Beezelbub's boys -- I can't remember the spelling -- it stands for Satan or the Devil and comes from the Bible. Bernard DeVoto in "Across the Wide Missouri." Dale Nelson dnelson@wizzards.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Adhesives Date: 13 May 1998 10:26:16 -0400 Scott, Heat a small amount of water to boiling and add the gelitan until the desired consistancy is aquired. Careful, too much and you will quickly have a unuseable gelatinious glob. I have used it in a somewhat thin mixture to seal & set sinew. When it dries it is rock hard. In a thick solution, it will dry to the cosistancy of hard rubber. Remember, it is water resistant, NOT waterproof. I now just use hide glue in my knives that I make, mainly because while I am boiling it, people stay out of my shop and leave me alone. Dennis Scott Allen wrote: > You wrote: > Did you know that Knox unflavored Gelatin is just fancy hide > glue???? > > Dennis, > > How would you prepare the Knox for using it as glue? > > Your most humble servant, > Scott Allen > Hunter and Scout for Fort Frederick > Fairplay, MD > http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Adhesives Date: 13 May 1998 10:07:04 -0600 Scott, I have used Knox for glue and for film and stage makeup. By varying the amount of hot water you can have a varitey of consistancies. I use more hot water than Knox for a light glue. Mixing a small amount of hot water with a pkg of gelentin and adding red, blue and yellow food coloring makes for some great stage makeup Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Write for custom tanning prices We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and hair on robes Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: MtMan-List: Beaver Club Date: 13 May 1998 13:39:20 -0600 Just got my copy of Muzzleloader today, and I have to say that Jim Hardee did a fine job with article on the Beaver Club, a Montreal-based organization of retired wintering partners from the North West Company. As usual, I have to add my two cents. A year ago, three of us had the opportunity to see some real Beaver Club medals. The real ones (called 'jewels') are significantly different from the reproductions. They are engraved on gold, rather than molded from brass. The royal blue ribbon is the same, but there is no bar on the top like that on the reproduction medals. (My husband suspects they were simply pinned on with a straight pin, like some military medals.) There are five or possibly six surviving Beaver Club medals. The David David medal is, I assume, in private hands, but the others are in museums. The McCord Museum in Montreal holds the medals of James McGill and Nicholas Montour, but the best place to go is Calgary's Glenbow Museum (aka Glenbow-Alberta Institute). They have, IIRC, three of them: William McGillivray's (accession no. R292.2.11), Ignace Giasson's (accession no. R292.2.11), and I seem to recall that a third medal came out, to our surprise, along with the other two. Unfortunately, my notes on this aren't close to hand. Giasson's is in absolutely pristine condition--the curators told us that the story is he only went to one meeting! McGillivray's, not surprisingly, is fairly worn. These medals are not on public display at the Glenbow, but, once we discovered they existed, we had relatively little difficulty getting to see them (knowing the accession numbers helped!). Some other prominent fur traders who belonged to the Beaver Club were Patrick Small (father-in-law to David Thompson and John Macdonald of Garth, and partner to Peter Pond, IIRC); Sir Alexander Mackenze (leader of the first expedition to reach the Pacific by land, in 1793); also Charles Chaboillez Sr., Peter Pangman, Pierre Rastel de Rocheblave, and Cuthbert Grant Sr. I believe George Simpson was given a special honorary membership and medal after 1821. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bug's Boys Date: 13 May 1998 18:39:35 -0700 "Belzebub" means lord of the flys! Medicine Bear Dale Nelson wrote: > Nauga Mok wrote: > > > > One of the "big wigs" in either H.B. or NW was nicknamed > > "Bugs" -- hence "Bug's Boys" in reference to the Blackfoot tribes. > > Bugs Boys is short for Belzebub or Beezelbub's boys -- I can't remember > the spelling -- it stands for Satan or the Devil and comes from the > Bible. Bernard DeVoto in "Across the Wide Missouri." > Dale Nelson dnelson@wizzards.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jack-scratch@juno.com (Richard D Heyen) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Adhesives Date: 13 May 1998 20:33:16 -0500 Horse Hide. Prime ingredient for centuries. Fraid I don't know the details. Drew Heyen jack-scratch@juno.com Phone-(713) 807-8711 On Sun, 10 May 1998 20:39:38 EDT JFLEMYTH writes: >Hello the net! > >Sorry, but I am bringing out another question here. It seems I have a >real >talent to get some almost too lively discussion going on the list, but >I think >I'm safe this time. > >My wife teaches school, and is always trying to do projects based on >18th and >19th century tools and technology. Does any body have any old >recepies for >adhesives or know some prime ingredients used in them? She has >recepies for >making soaps, dies, and other things, but not glues. > >Any imput would be appreciated. (Even things that are not totally >period >correct may help with simple projects for children.) Again, thanks >for all >this list teaches all us pilgrims! > >John Fleming > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MCKEE N H Subject: MtMan-List: Flint and steel Date: 13 May 1998 20:51:03 EDT I would like a copy of the flint striker article. Thanks Neil ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dale Nelson Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bug's Boys Date: 13 May 1998 22:09:54 -0700 Frank wrote: > > "Belzebub" means lord of the flys! King James Version of the Bible: Matthew 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by BEELZEBUB the prince of the devils. Luke 11:15 But some of them said, He casteth out devils through BEELZEBUB the chief of the devils. I have 5 more verses if you are interested. Again, according to Bernard DeVoto, historian emeritis, in the book "Across the Wide Missouri" -- "Bugs Boys is derived from BEELZEBUB." "Lord of the Flies" -- you've got to be kidding, remember Saturday morning cartoons aren't history. Dale Nelson dnelson@wizzards.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean Rudy Subject: MtMan-List: Ruxton Date: 14 May 1998 08:55:15 -0600 (MDT) The latest addition to the "Mountain Men and the Fur Trade" web site is the complete text of George Frederick Ruxton's "Wild Life in the Rocky Mountains" http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/html/ruxton.html Ruxton was an English traveller who undertook a journey from Mexico north into what is now the western US. In 1846, he proceeded from El Paso to Santa Fe, then Taos, and Bent's Fort. He spent the winter with trappers near Bayou Salade, and the next spring took the Santa Fe trail back to St Louis and England. He wrote two books related to this trip - one, "Life in the Far West" is a novel based on the stories the trappers related to him. The other is a factual narrative of his travels. It has often been published in two volumes - one covering his time in old Mexico, the other his Rocky Mountain experiences. The edition now on-line covers the Rocky Mountain portion of his journey, and includes his interactions with the trappers in New Mexico and Colorado. It is a useful source for the history of the "mountain men" in that region in the mid 1840's. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: MtMan-List: shooting targets Date: 14 May 1998 08:40:27 -0600 Our local club is looking for novelty paper targets. You know the type that have V's, wasps, ground hog, bottles, etc. Is there a web site? I have quite a few but are always looking for more. I can photo copy mine and trade. Thanks Joe By the way, we are finishing quite a few buffalo robes. Full hides and halves if anyone is interested. Lots of deer and elk rawhide completed also. Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Write for custom tanning prices We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and hair on robes Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: DFalat Subject: MtMan-List: 1803 Harper's Ferry Rifle Date: 14 May 1998 16:27:36 EDT How can I learn more about the 1803 Harper's Ferry rifle that was issued to the Lews and Clark expedition? I am an 1812 reenactor who is very much interested in learning all I can about this rifle. Thanks DFalat@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: gourd seeds Date: 14 May 1998 17:34:10 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD7F5E.81254A40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I got that mangled up thing you call an envelope but I put the seeds in anyway put some dry ones in also. they should have a good start in the damp paper towel and plastic bag. I also got Ken Carpenters and Matt Mitchell's letters also they are on their way. I hope that everyone gets a good crop hopefully that the growing season is long enough. Later Jon T ---------- : From: Michael Pierce : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: gourd seeds : Date: Monday, May 11, 1998 9:15 PM : : john i put mine on the porch and jumped up and down on it to make sure it : had good track on it and stamped it inside and out. envelope was : included. best to you : YMHOS : "Hawk" : Michael Pierce : 854 Glenfield Dr. : Palm Harbor, florida 34684 : 1-(813) 771-1815 : : On Mon, 11 May 1998 17:49:37 -0700 "JON P TOWNS" : writes: : >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. : > : >------=_NextPart_000_01BD7D05.2A294C60 : >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 : >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit : > : >I FORGOT PLEASE STAMP THAT ENVELOPE THANKS JON T : > : >---------- : >From: JON P TOWNS : >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com; ammlist@lists.xmission.com : >Subject: gourd seeds : >Date: Saturday, May 09, 1998 7:28 PM : > : >I have some canteen gourd seeds for anyone who wants them send me a : >self : >addressed envelope and I will stick them in a plastic bag in a damp : >paper : >towel and they should be ready to put in a starter pot. If you don't : >them : >already germinated let me know and I'll send them dry. Just send the : >replies to : >Jon Towns : >P O Box 143 : >Manchester WA 98353 : > : >I'll enclose about a dozen that should give everyone who wants them : >enough : >to grow this summer. They are hard to dry these came from Phoenix AZ : > : > : >------=_NextPart_000_01BD7D05.2A294C60 : >Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 : >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable : > : >

color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">I FORGOT PLEASE STAMP THAT ENVELOPE = : >THANKS JON T

----------
From: JON P TOWNS <color=3D"#0000FF">AMM944@prodigy.netcolor=3D"#000000">>
To: color=3D"#0000FF">hist_text@lists.xmission.comcolor=3D"#000000">; color=3D"#0000FF">ammlist@lists.xmission.comcolor=3D"#000000">
Subject: gourd seeds
Date: Saturday, May 09, : >= : >1998 7:28 PM

I have some canteen gourd seeds for anyone who : >wants = : >them send me a self addressed envelope and I will stick them in a = : >plastic bag in a damp paper towel and they should be ready to put in a : >= : >starter pot.  If you don't them already germinated let me know : >and = : >I'll send them dry.  Just send the replies to
Jon Towns
P : >O = : >Box 143
Manchester WA 98353

I'll enclose about a dozen that : >= : >should give everyone who wants them enough to grow this summer. = : > They are hard to dry these came from Phoenix AZ = : >   

: > : >------=_NextPart_000_01BD7D05.2A294C60-- : > : > : : _____________________________________________________________________ : You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. : Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com : Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] : ------=_NextPart_000_01BD7F5E.81254A40 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I got that mangled up thing you call an = envelope but I put the seeds in anyway put some dry ones in also. =
they should have a good start in the damp paper towel and plastic = bag. I also got Ken Carpenters and Matt Mitchell's letters also they are = on their way.  I hope that everyone gets a good crop hopefully that = the growing season is long enough.  Later Jon = T

----------
: From: Michael Pierce <hawknest4@juno.com>
: To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: gourd seeds
: = porch and jumped up and down on it to make sure it
: had good track = on it and stamped it inside and out.  envelope was
: included. =  best to you
: YMHOS
: =       "Hawk"
: Michael = Pierce
: 854 Glenfield Dr.
: Palm Harbor, florida =   34684
: 1-(813) 771-1815
:
: On Mon, 11 May 1998 = 17:49:37 -0700 "JON P TOWNS" <AMM944@prodigy.net>
: writes:
: >This is a multi-part = message in MIME format.
: >
: = >------=3D_NextPart_000_01BD7D05.2A294C60
: >Content-Type: = text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
: >Content-Transfer-Encoding: = 7bit
: >
: >I FORGOT PLEASE STAMP THAT ENVELOPE THANKS JON = T
: >
: >----------
: >From: JON P TOWNS <AMM944@prodigy.net>
: >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com; ammlist@lists.xmission.com
: >Subject: gourd seeds
: >Date: = Saturday, May 09, 1998 7:28 PM
: >
: >I have some canteen = gourd seeds for anyone who wants them send me a
: >self
: = >addressed envelope and I will stick them in a plastic bag in a damp =
: >paper
: >towel and they should be ready to put in a = starter pot.  If you don't
: >them
: >already = germinated let me know and I'll send them dry.  Just send the
: = >replies to
: >Jon Towns
: >P O Box 143
: = >Manchester WA 98353
: >
: >I'll enclose about a dozen = that should give everyone who wants them
: >enough
: >to = grow this summer.  They are hard to dry these came from Phoenix AZ =  
: >  
: >
: = >------=3D_NextPart_000_01BD7D05.2A294C60
: >Content-Type: = text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1
: >Content-Transfer-Encoding: = quoted-printable
: >
: = ><html><head></head><BODY = bgcolor=3D3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D3D2 =3D
: = >color=3D3D"#000000" face=3D3D"Arial">I FORGOT = PLEASE STAMP THAT ENVELOPE =3D
: >THANKS JON = T<br><br>----------<br>From: JON P TOWNS = &lt;<font =3D
: = >color=3D3D"#0000FF"><u>AMM944@prodigy.net</u><font =3D
: = >color=3D3D"#000000">&gt;<br>To: <font = =3D
: >color=3D3D"#0000FF"><u>hist_text@lists.xmission.com</u><font =3D
: = >color=3D3D"#000000">; <font =3D
: = >color=3D3D"#0000FF"><u>ammlist@lists.xmission.com</u><font =3D
: = >color=3D3D"#000000"><br>Subject: gourd = seeds<br>Date: Saturday, May 09,
: >=3D
: >1998 7:28 = PM<br><br>I have some canteen gourd seeds for anyone who =
: >wants =3D
: >them send me a self addressed envelope and = I will stick them in a =3D
: >plastic bag in a damp paper towel = and they should be ready to put in a
: >=3D
: >starter pot. = &nbsp;If you don't them already germinated let me know
: >and = =3D
: >I'll send them dry. &nbsp;Just send the replies to = <br>Jon Towns <br>P
: >O =3D
: >Box = 143<br>Manchester WA 98353<br><br>I'll enclose about a = dozen that
: >=3D
: >should give everyone who wants them = enough to grow this summer. =3D
: >&nbsp;They are hard to dry = these came from Phoenix AZ =3D
: = >&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br><br></p>
: = ></font></font></font></font></font><= /font></font></body></html>
: = >------=3D_NextPart_000_01BD7D05.2A294C60--
: >
: >
: =
: = _____________________________________________________________________
= : You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet = e-mail.
: Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
: Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
: =

------=_NextPart_000_01BD7F5E.81254A40-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: shooting targets Date: 14 May 1998 14:24:34 -0400 charley haffner produces all types of paper novelty targets-- dont know his address but some of his targets are sold by national Muzzle loading rifle association-- suggest you call them and get his phone number he also advertises in muzzle blast magazine NMLRA has a web site and a e-mail address. If your going to do novelty targets suggest you do them yourself, such as thumb tacks on a white piece of paper-- measure closest string center of tack to center of bullet. life savers on a string--- charcoal briquettes on a string. playing cards,edgewise and flat YOUR MIND CAN MAKE A SHOOTER HAVE NIGHTMARES IF YOU WORK AT IT. WAS MEMBER OF THE TRAPPERS OF STARVED ROCK AND FOR YEARS NO PAPER TARGETS WERE USED AT ANY OF THEIR SHOOTS. AND SOME OF THE GUYS WERE VERY CREATIVE AND CHALLENGING WITH THEIR CHOICE OF TARGETS. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Thu, 14 May 1998 08:40:27 -0600 jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) writes: >Our local club is looking for novelty paper targets. You know the type >that >have V's, wasps, ground hog, bottles, etc. Is there a web site? I have >quite a few but are always looking for more. I can photo copy mine and >trade. >Thanks >Joe > >By the way, we are finishing quite a few buffalo robes. Full hides and >halves if anyone is interested. Lots of deer and elk rawhide completed >also. > >Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery >Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 >Write for custom tanning prices >We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather >and >hair on robes >Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, >baskets >check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Frank Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bug's Boys Date: 14 May 1998 21:01:13 -0700 Dale, Great passages from God's word and real darn good you're reading it! "Beelzebub" is the new testament form of "Baal Zebub". In the time of Christ this was the current name for the chief or prince of demons. "Beelzebul" in Syriac means lord of dung. Beelzebul is thought to be the word intended and is also sometimes pronounced "Baal Zebel". Okay, in my Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary "Beelzebub" is defined as a Philistine god, literally "lord of flies" In my King James Bible, in the footnote for Matthew 10:25, it also states that beelzebub was also known as "the lord of flies" and "the prince of demons". None of this came from saturday morning cartoons! Why would you assume such a thing? You have 5 more verses? I have 13 more respected biblical scholars! I did however misspell beelzebub and I thank you for the correction. YMHOS, Frank Dale Nelson wrote: > Frank wrote: > > > > "Belzebub" means lord of the flys! > > King James Version of the Bible: > > Matthew 12:24 > But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast > out devils, but by BEELZEBUB the prince of the devils. > > Luke 11:15 > But some of them said, He casteth out devils through BEELZEBUB the chief > of the devils. > > I have 5 more verses if you are interested. Again, according to Bernard > DeVoto, historian emeritis, in the book "Across the Wide Missouri" -- > "Bugs Boys is derived from BEELZEBUB." > > "Lord of the Flies" -- you've got to be kidding, remember Saturday > morning cartoons aren't history. > Dale Nelson dnelson@wizzards.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Blue Rider Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bug's Boys Date: 14 May 1998 17:32:02 -1000 > Again, according to > Bernard > DeVoto, historian emeritis, in the book "Across the Wide Missouri" -- > "Bugs Boys is derived from BEELZEBUB." > > "Lord of the Flies" -- you've got to be kidding, remember Saturday > morning cartoons aren't history. > Dale Nelson dnelson@wizzards.net Actually Be-el Zebub *was* lord of the flies in Babylon. Be-el Zebub was not a god, but a psychopomp, a being who conducts souls to the Underworld. In Babylonian religion, souls were symbolized as flies, therefore Lord of the Flies. My mind retains the oddest things. Blue ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: MtMan-List: Raton Rondy Date: 15 May 1998 11:15:55 -0600 (CST) Is anyone planning to attend the Raton (Santa Fe Trail) rondy June 7-13? I might go this year and take my two daughters (7,10). We all do living history of all periods, but we've never gone to this one. Our friends who regularly go won't make it this year, so I won't know anyone, unless some of y'all are going. Who plans to go, and what can I expect? What kids activities would there be for kids? My wife won't be going, so I'll be fully responsible for the kids. ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: gourd seeds Date: 15 May 1998 10:41:40 -0400 Looking forward to their arival only wish i had them in the ground earlier-- It's how as hell down here right now and will have to water daily in the evenings or will burn them out. I may save a few for next spring and start them early so that they can produce all summer and fall- Our growing season here is different than yours. I have tomato plants and pepper plants that are 3 years old and still producing. I am interested to see what they do and if they will live thru the winter months. since we don't have much of a winter. best to you and many thinks. YMHOSASHAT "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Thu, 14 May 1998 17:34:10 -0700 "JON P TOWNS" writes: >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > >------=_NextPart_000_01BD7F5E.81254A40 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >I got that mangled up thing you call an envelope but I put the seeds >in >anyway put some dry ones in also. >they should have a good start in the damp paper towel and plastic bag. >I >also got Ken Carpenters and Matt Mitchell's letters also they are on >their >way. I hope that everyone gets a good crop hopefully that the growing >season is long enough. Later Jon T > >---------- >: From: Michael Pierce >: To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: gourd seeds >: Date: Monday, May 11, 1998 9:15 PM >: >: john i put mine on the porch and jumped up and down on it to make >sure it >: had good track on it and stamped it inside and out. envelope was >: included. best to you >: YMHOS >: "Hawk" >: Michael Pierce >: 854 Glenfield Dr. >: Palm Harbor, florida 34684 >: 1-(813) 771-1815 >: >: On Mon, 11 May 1998 17:49:37 -0700 "JON P TOWNS" > >: writes: >: >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. >: > >: >------=_NextPart_000_01BD7D05.2A294C60 >: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >: >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >: > >: >I FORGOT PLEASE STAMP THAT ENVELOPE THANKS JON T >: > >: >---------- >: >From: JON P TOWNS >: >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com; ammlist@lists.xmission.com >: >Subject: gourd seeds >: >Date: Saturday, May 09, 1998 7:28 PM >: > >: >I have some canteen gourd seeds for anyone who wants them send me a > >: >self >: >addressed envelope and I will stick them in a plastic bag in a damp > >: >paper >: >towel and they should be ready to put in a starter pot. If you >don't >: >them >: >already germinated let me know and I'll send them dry. Just send >the >: >replies to >: >Jon Towns >: >P O Box 143 >: >Manchester WA 98353 >: > >: >I'll enclose about a dozen that should give everyone who wants them > >: >enough >: >to grow this summer. They are hard to dry these came from Phoenix >AZ >: > >: > >: >------=_NextPart_000_01BD7D05.2A294C60 >: >Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 >: >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >: > >: >

: >color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">I FORGOT PLEASE STAMP THAT >ENVELOPE = >: >THANKS JON T

----------
From: JON P TOWNS <: >color=3D"#0000FF">AMM944@prodigy.net: >color=3D"#000000">>
To: : >color=3D"#0000FF">hist_text@lists.xmission.com: >color=3D"#000000">; : >color=3D"#0000FF">ammlist@lists.xmission.com: >color=3D"#000000">
Subject: gourd seeds
Date: Saturday, May >09, >: >= >: >1998 7:28 PM

I have some canteen gourd seeds for anyone who >: >wants = >: >them send me a self addressed envelope and I will stick them in a = >: >plastic bag in a damp paper towel and they should be ready to put >in a >: >= >: >starter pot.  If you don't them already germinated let me know > >: >and = >: >I'll send them dry.  Just send the replies to
Jon Towns >
P >: >O = >: >Box 143
Manchester WA 98353

I'll enclose about a dozen >that >: >= >: >should give everyone who wants them enough to grow this summer. = >: > They are hard to dry these came from Phoenix AZ = >: >   

>: > >: >------=_NextPart_000_01BD7D05.2A294C60-- >: > >: > >: >: >_____________________________________________________________________ >: You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >: Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com >: Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] >: >------=_NextPart_000_01BD7F5E.81254A40 >Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >

color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Arial">I got that mangled up thing you call >an = >envelope but I put the seeds in anyway put some dry ones in also. = >
they should have a good start in the damp paper towel and plastic >= >bag. I also got Ken Carpenters and Matt Mitchell's letters also they >are = >on their way.  I hope that everyone gets a good crop hopefully >that = >the growing season is long enough.  Later Jon = >T

----------
: From: Michael Pierce <color=3D"#0000FF">hawknest4@juno.comcolor=3D"#000000">>
: To: color=3D"#0000FF">hist_text@lists.xmission.comcolor=3D"#000000">
: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: gourd seeds
: >= >Date: Monday, May 11, 1998 9:15 PM
:
: john i put mine on the = >porch and jumped up and down on it to make sure it
: had good track >= >on it and stamped it inside and out.  envelope was
: included. >= > best to you
: YMHOS
: = >      "Hawk"
: Michael = >Pierce
: 854 Glenfield Dr.
: Palm Harbor, florida = >  34684
: 1-(813) 771-1815
:
: On Mon, 11 May 1998 >= >17:49:37 -0700 "JON P TOWNS" <color=3D"#0000FF">AMM944@prodigy.netcolor=3D"#000000">>
: writes:
: >This is a multi-part = >message in MIME format.
: >
: = >>------=3D_NextPart_000_01BD7D05.2A294C60
: >Content-Type: = >text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
: >Content-Transfer-Encoding: = >7bit
: >
: >I FORGOT PLEASE STAMP THAT ENVELOPE THANKS JON >= >T
: >
: >----------
: >From: JON P TOWNS <color=3D"#0000FF">AMM944@prodigy.netcolor=3D"#000000">>
: >To: color=3D"#0000FF">hist_text@lists.xmission.comcolor=3D"#000000">; color=3D"#0000FF">ammlist@lists.xmission.comcolor=3D"#000000">
: >Subject: gourd seeds
: >Date: = >Saturday, May 09, 1998 7:28 PM
: >
: >I have some canteen >= >gourd seeds for anyone who wants them send me a
: >self
: = >>addressed envelope and I will stick them in a plastic bag in a >damp = >
: >paper
: >towel and they should be ready to put in a = >starter pot.  If you don't
: >them
: >already = >germinated let me know and I'll send them dry.  Just send >the
: = >>replies to
: >Jon Towns
: >P O Box 143
: = >>Manchester WA 98353
: >
: >I'll enclose about a dozen >= >that should give everyone who wants them
: >enough
: >to >= >grow this summer.  They are hard to dry these came from Phoenix >AZ = > 
: >  
: >
: = >>------=3D_NextPart_000_01BD7D05.2A294C60
: >Content-Type: = >text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1
: >Content-Transfer-Encoding: = >quoted-printable
: >
: = >><html><head></head><BODY = >bgcolor=3D3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D3D2 >=3D
: = >>color=3D3D"#000000" face=3D3D"Arial">I >FORGOT = >PLEASE STAMP THAT ENVELOPE =3D
: >THANKS JON = >T<br><br>----------<br>From: JON P TOWNS = >&lt;<font =3D
: = >>color=3D3D"#0000FF"><u>color=3D"#0000FF">AMM944@prodigy.netcolor=3D"#000000"></u><font =3D
: = >>color=3D3D"#000000">&gt;<br>To: <font = >=3D
: >color=3D3D"#0000FF"><u>color=3D"#0000FF">hist_text@lists.xmission.comcolor=3D"#000000"></u><font =3D
: = >>color=3D3D"#000000">; <font =3D
: = >>color=3D3D"#0000FF"><u>color=3D"#0000FF">ammlist@lists.xmission.comcolor=3D"#000000"></u><font =3D
: = >>color=3D3D"#000000"><br>Subject: gourd = >seeds<br>Date: Saturday, May 09,
: >=3D
: >1998 >7:28 = >PM<br><br>I have some canteen gourd seeds for anyone who = >
: >wants =3D
: >them send me a self addressed envelope >and = >I will stick them in a =3D
: >plastic bag in a damp paper towel >= >and they should be ready to put in a
: >=3D
: >starter >pot. = >&nbsp;If you don't them already germinated let me know
: >>and = >=3D
: >I'll send them dry. &nbsp;Just send the replies to = ><br>Jon Towns <br>P
: >O =3D
: >Box = >143<br>Manchester WA 98353<br><br>I'll enclose about >a = >dozen that
: >=3D
: >should give everyone who wants them >= >enough to grow this summer. =3D
: >&nbsp;They are hard to >dry = >these came from Phoenix AZ =3D
: = >>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br><br></p>
: >= >></font></font></font></font></font><= >/font></font></body></html>
: = >>------=3D_NextPart_000_01BD7D05.2A294C60--
: >
: >>
: = >
: = >_____________________________________________________________________
= >: You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet = >e-mail.
: Get completely free e-mail from Juno at color=3D"#0000FF">http://www.juno.comcolor=3D"#000000">
: Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
: >= >

>ont>> >------=_NextPart_000_01BD7F5E.81254A40-- > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean Rudy Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bug's Boys Date: 15 May 1998 08:41:19 -0600 (MDT) > > > Again, according to > > Bernard > > DeVoto, historian emeritis, in the book "Across the Wide Missouri" -- > > "Bugs Boys is derived from BEELZEBUB." > > > > "Lord of the Flies" -- you've got to be kidding, remember Saturday > > morning cartoons aren't history. > > Dale Nelson dnelson@wizzards.net Did historian emeritus(?) DeVoto mention how he knows this? I mean, did he cite some period source that explained where the term came from? or is this just what he supposes? I know of other cases in his book where he states things as facts, where actually they aren't substantiated with period sources. Even though DeVoto writes some entertaining books, one has to be careful to recognize what are real documentable facts, and not accept as gospel all of DeVoto's _opinions_ without a grain of salt. The "Bugs Boys" story may or may not be one of these cases... (This ought to make for a fun debate with any DeVoto-ees in the group!) -Dean Rudy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: matt despain Subject: MtMan-List: Thanks for the help Date: 15 May 1998 12:57:21 -0400 To all those who have helped me with information on their clubs/groups, I thank you much. If any newcommers are reading this I am looking for modern day buckskinning club histories and charters. I am working on a dissertation about the mountain man's image in American culture and want to discuss the buckskinning movement as part of it. If any are willing to provide this info I would be greatful. Thanks, Matt "Doc Wannabe" Despain 1339 Homeland Ave Norman OK 73072 sdespain@ou.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bob Grzywacz Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Raton Rondy Date: 15 May 1998 09:54:44 -0600 Henry B. Crawford wrote: > > Is anyone planning to attend the Raton (Santa Fe Trail) rondy June 7-13? I > might go this year and take my two daughters (7,10). We all do living Henry If you do get down there stop by and say hello. I'll be setting up about Thursday---I think__ Bob G Thunder Ridge Muzzleloading http://www.plan-et.com/thunder/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: matt despain Subject: MtMan-List: lost information Date: 15 May 1998 13:04:46 -0400 To those who sent me information about buckskinning groups or ideas for examining this facet of American culture last week I thank you, but I need your help again. I, being the computer idiot that I am, lost all the information you sent me. I wish I could blame it on the computer but I know better. If you all could give a bit more of your time and re-E-mail what you did last week I would be very greatful. Thanks, Matt Despain ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: matt despain Subject: MtMan-List: looking for rendezvous in Oklahoma Date: 15 May 1998 13:07:59 -0400 I'm looking for any rendezvous in Oklahoma this Summer, preferably in the central portions of the state. If any Oklahomans are part of this discussion group give me a holler. Matt "Doc Wannabe" Despain ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA Subject: Re: MtMan-List: looking for rendezvous in Oklahoma Date: 15 May 1998 15:13:04 EDT Matt, coming up Sept. 4-7, PAwnee Primitive Gathering. Pawnee Lake, Pawnee, OK contact # 415/362-4161 or 918/762-2493. Enjoy. PJ Also, for a really complete listing of events, get ahold of a copy of The Smoke & Fire News, PO 166, Grand Rapids, OH 43522. $18/yr or $2 bucks for a sample copy. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Raton Rondy.. Date: 15 May 1998 14:27:24 +0000 My wife and I will be going, but just for the weekend. See you there. Maybe we ought to set up some kind of meeting place and time for all of us on the history list to meet - get to know in person who we talk to on the net? Someone want to set this up? DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS --- PROPRIETORS OF THE NADA TRADING COMPANY Bob Grzywacz wrote: >Henry B. Crawford wrote: >> >> Is anyone planning to attend the Raton (Santa Fe Trail) rondy June 7-13? I >> might go this year and take my two daughters (7,10). We all do living > >Henry >If you do get down there stop by and say hello. I'll be setting up >about Thursday---I think__ >Bob G >Thunder Ridge Muzzleloading >http://www.plan-et.com/thunder/ > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > >Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com > (SMTPD32-4.03) id A3CE3FD0116; Fri, 15 May 1998 12:05:02 MST >Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.82 #1) > id 0yaOjJ-00014A-00; Fri, 15 May 1998 11:57:13 -0600 >Received: from (xmission.xmission.com) [198.60.22.2] (drudy) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) > id 0yaOjG-00013l-00; Fri, 15 May 1998 11:57:11 -0600 >Received: (from drudy@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.8/8.7.5) id >LAA02026 for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Fri, 15 May 1998 11:57:08 -0600 (MDT) >Received: from (jerry.pcisys.net) [207.76.102.251] (root) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) > id 0yaNgk-00050R-00; Fri, 15 May 1998 10:50:30 -0600 >Received: from client (prof151.pcisys.net [207.204.7.151]) > by jerry.pcisys.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) via SMTP id KAA15694 > for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 10:50:27 -0600 >(MDT) > env-from (bob@plan-et.com) >Message-ID: <355C6544.1844@plan-et.com> >Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 09:54:44 -0600 >From: Bob Grzywacz >Organization: Thunder Ridge Muzzleloading >X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Raton Rondy >References: <01IX26T62B0C8ZE0EN@TTACS.TTU.EDU> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >X-UIDL: 891663356 >Status: U > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: RE: MtMan-List: looking for rendezvous in Oklahoma Date: 15 May 1998 14:29:42 +0000 I'm a transplanted Okie, but couldn't tell you off hand of any doins there. Where do you live? DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS --- PROPRIETORS OF THE NADA TRADING COMPANY matt despain wrote: >I'm looking for any rendezvous in Oklahoma this Summer, preferably in >the central portions of the state. If any Oklahomans are part of this >discussion group give me a holler. > >Matt "Doc Wannabe" Despain > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > >Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com > (SMTPD32-4.03) id A3C0C4010E; Fri, 15 May 1998 13:13:04 MST >Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.82 #1) > id 0yaPn2-0004as-00; Fri, 15 May 1998 13:05:08 -0600 >Received: from (xmission.xmission.com) [198.60.22.2] (drudy) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) > id 0yaPn0-0004an-00; Fri, 15 May 1998 13:05:06 -0600 >Received: (from drudy@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.8/8.7.5) id >NAA16382 for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Fri, 15 May 1998 13:05:04 -0600 (MDT) >Received: from (hermes.services.ou.edu) [129.15.2.121] > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) > id 0yaOpb-0001Qn-00; Fri, 15 May 1998 12:03:43 -0600 >Received: from styx.services.ou.edu by hermes.services.ou.edu with ESMTP; >Fri, 15 May 1998 13:03:42 -0500 >Received: from publob12 ([129.15.71.127]) > by styx.services.ou.edu (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id NAA06593 > for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 13:03:41 -0500 (CDT) >Message-ID: <355C766F.5254@ou.edu> >Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 13:07:59 -0400 >From: matt despain >X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; I) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: MtMan-List: looking for rendezvous in Oklahoma >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >X-UIDL: 891663358 >Status: U > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bob----debie Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Raton Rondy.. Date: 15 May 1998 17:10:13 -0600 Phyllis and Don Keas wrote: > > My wife and I will be going, but just for the weekend. See you there. > Maybe we ought to set up some kind of meeting place and time for all of us > on the history list to meet - get to know in person who we talk to on the > net? Someone want to set this up? I will be there for the duration. If you want to use my lodge for a gathering place, just give the word. I'll see if I can keep a pot of coffee goin. Bring a cup. bob G Thunder Ridge Muzzleloading. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: EmmaPeel2 Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Raton Rondy.. Date: 16 May 1998 00:16:04 EDT Where exactly is the Raton Rondy being held, and when? If we hide behind a tree, is it possible to camp? Sounds like fun. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dale Nelson Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bug's Boys Date: 16 May 1998 05:33:36 -0700 Let me try this one more time. I thought the conversation was about "bugs boys," and if the term is factual, and if so where did it come from. Again, once more, let me try this. Bernard DeVoto in the book he wrote that is titled "Across the Wide Missouri" said the term started out as Beelzebub Boys, then Bub's Boys, and then Bugs Boys. Are you still with me. I then pointed out that Beelzebub is fromn the bible and means Devil. Dean pointed out that Joe Meek said that "Bugs Boys" means "sons of the Devil." Then Frank, you pointed out that Beezlebub means lord of the flies. I'm sorry if I can't figure out where that has any more to do with either bugs boys or DeVoto than Saturday morning cartoons would. So I pointed out two scripture verses that show the point DeVoto is making and we get a long disertation on Beelzebub and the bible from you. If you are going to look up something in your dictionary, why don't you try "bugs boys?" And if your 13 bible scholars have any knowledge on A. why the Blackfoot Indians during the 1830's might have been called "bugs boys" by American beaver trappers, or B. if they know anything about DeVoto we need to know, then by all means let us hear from them, because I've said everything I know on the subject of "bugs boys." DN Frank wrote: > > Dale, > > Great passages from God's word and real darn good you're reading it! > "Beelzebub" is the new testament form of "Baal Zebub". In the time of > Christ this was the current name for the chief or prince of demons. > "Beelzebul" in Syriac means lord of dung. Beelzebul is thought to be the > word intended and is also sometimes pronounced "Baal Zebel". > Okay, in my Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary "Beelzebub" is defined as a > Philistine god, literally "lord of flies" In my King James Bible, in the > footnote for Matthew 10:25, it also states that beelzebub was also known as > "the lord of flies" and "the prince of demons". > None of this came from saturday morning cartoons! Why would you assume such > a thing? > You have 5 more verses? I have 13 more respected biblical scholars! > I did however misspell beelzebub and I thank you for the correction. > > YMHOS, Frank > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bob----debie Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Raton Rondy.. Date: 16 May 1998 15:29:08 -0600 Far-West river gorge mountain man roo will be held May 21-26 just outside Mesquite, Nv. Contact Richard Myers 702-346-6038 for info. this sounds like a busy event. Wild boar huntjust off site. Shootin and hawk throwin off horseback, horsedrawn wagon and canoe. buffalo roast Saturday night. Chucker and Pheasant release for shot or bow hunt. A special shoot will be held in powder and bow. Winner in each of these categories wins the oppurtinuty (whazzat??!!)to hunt and harvest an exotic four horned sheep. Santa Fe Trails shoot. june 7-13. Just outside Raton, N.M. Wolf Creek shoot and roo. Outside Pagosas Springs, Co. June 18-21 Hope to see some of ya there Bob G Thunder Ridge ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bob----debie Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Raton Rondy.. Date: 16 May 1998 15:26:49 -0600 EmmaPeel2 wrote: > > Where exactly is the Raton Rondy being held, and when? If we hide behind a > tree, is it possible to camp? Sounds like fun. \ Off I-25 take exit 455. Cut back north and under the I. take that north to N.M. 555 and then west. There's a Sonic drive in close to the intersection. Take N.M. 555 5.6 miles to the road to Coal Canyon. that cuts back south. look for the signs. Bob G Thunder Ridge http://www.plan-et.com/thunder/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123 Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Club Date: 17 May 1998 01:00:56 EDT Angela, Thanks for the positive words about the Beaver Club article. Also thanks for the additional info. We tried to get a hold of several different publishers, who had photos of original Beaver Club medallions in their books, to ask permission to reprint their picture. With deadlines and such, we had no luck, thus decided to use a picture of the current medallion being sold. You are absolutely right, it is different from originals in several ways. As for the ribbon, I tend to think the medallion was worn suspended from a blue ribbon around the neck, certainly not from the short ribbon with the metal bar such as is being sold. If I ever get to those museums, I'd like to take a look at those originals! Jim Hardee AMM#1676 P.O. Box 1228 Quincy, CA 95971 (530)283-4566 (H) (530)283-3330 (W) (530)283-5171 FAX Casapy123@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123 Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bug's Boys Date: 17 May 1998 01:00:57 EDT Dean, Thanks for making the point about DeVoto's origin of Bug's Boys. I once had a discussion with Dr. Fred Gowans about the origin of "Bug's Boys" and he said it is not clear where it came from. He did say that the Beelzebub angle was a "generally accepted theory" but that still leaves us with no source. So, it is better to rely on this as a possible solution and keep searching for first hand documentation. Jim Hardee AMM#1676 P.O. Box 1228 Quincy, CA 95971 (530)283-4566 (H) (530)283-3330 (W) (530)283-5171 FAX Casapy123@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bob----debie Subject: MtMan-List: looking for a roo Date: 17 May 1998 12:23:26 -0600 I'm going to be in northern Nevada through the 26th or 27th aned hope to find a roo between Mesquete, NV and Raton, N.M. the weekend of the 30th. If you happen to know of a shoot or roo within a day or so drive of that area would you please let me know? Thanks Bob G ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Adhesives Date: 17 May 1998 14:34:18 -0500 At 08:39 PM 5/10/98 -0400, you wrote: >Hello the net! > >Sorry, but I am bringing out another question here. It seems I have a real >talent to get some almost too lively discussion going on the list, but I think >I'm safe this time. > >My wife teaches school, and is always trying to do projects based on 18th= and >19th century tools and technology. Does any body have any old recepies for >adhesives or know some prime ingredients used in them? She has recepies= for >making soaps, dies, and other things, but not glues. > >Any imput would be appreciated. (Even things that are not totally period >correct may help with simple projects for children.) Again, thanks for all >this list teaches all us pilgrims! > >John Fleming >=20 ADHESIVES There were many forms of hide glue in the past. French glue, Scotch glue, fish hide glue, rabbit skin glue, parchment glue, and more. Today rabbit skin glue is available at art supply stores where it is generally used in conjunction with whiting to size canvas or to make Gesso. Pearled, ground, or other trade names for the various dry forms of hide glue, sold by primarily woodworking suppliers, are all about the same today. Scotch glue was darker, came from older animals and thought to be stronger. French glue was lighter and finer and came from younger animals. Masters would blend to meet their requirements and specifications. The glue is made from the hides and hooves of horses, cattle and most any other beast. The descriptions for rendering, have been generally accurate as previously posted. Fish hide glue was a fine grade used in precise work like the assembly of split Tonkin cane fishing rods. Parchment being made of lamb skin made fine glue when rendered. There have been many receipts developed to use these most common glues to many purposes. LIQUID HIDE GLUE Cover dry glue with strong vinegar (20%+, acetic acid) in a tightly stoppered glass bottle and set aside several days to dissolve. NOTE: this stuff really stinks. Or go to Sears and buy a squeeze bottle of liquid hide glue (also available under different labels, all I think made by Franklin) just as inconvenient to use as any squeeze bottle glue. Liquid hide glue has a one year shelf life. =20 Diluting hide glue in whiskey can make liquid hide glue with an unlimited shelf life. Other receipts for liquid hide glue include nitric acid and other less friendly materials. Glue has been made of many materials, depending on the purpose. Animal blood, milk, rosin, resin, lime, eggs, flour, sandarac, mastic, arabic, parchment, acids, oxides of zinc, copper and other metals, starch, litharge, wood ashes, India Rubber, isinglass, and much more. =20 Waterproof glues, glues for glass, pottery, china, wood, paper, marble, leather, tortoise shell, iron vessels, and everything else one can think of; had glue formulated to each specific purpose in the past. There is no need for modern expedients. Canadian Balsam is still used as cement for microscope slide covers. A few old receipts=85=20 PORTABLE GLUE Take 1 lb. of the best glue (dry hide glue), boil and strain it very clear; boil likewise 4 oz. of isinglass (made from air bladders of sturgeon, not the mineral), put it in a double glue pot (small double boiler), with 1/2 lb. of fine brown sugar, and boil it pretty thick; then pour into moulds; when cold cut and dry them in small pieces. It will fasten paper without the process of damping. NOTE: It dilutes immediately in warm water and is most useful to draughtsmen, architects, turners and more. FLOUR PASTE Paste is formed principally of wheaten flour boiled in water till it be of a glutinous or viscid consistence. It may be prepared with those ingredients simply for common purposes; but when it is used by bookbinders, or for paper-hangings to rooms, it is usual to mix a fourth, fifth or sixth of the weight of the flour of powdered resin; and where it is wanted still more tenacious, gum arabic or any kind of size may be added. JAPANESE CEMENT, or RICE GLUE This elegant cement is made by mixing rice-flour intimately with cold water, and then gently boiling it; it is beautifully white, and dries almost transparent. Papers pasted together by means of this cement will sooner separate in their own substance than at the joining, which makes it useful in the preparation of curious paper articles, as tea-trays, ladies dressing boxes, and other objects that require layers of paper to be cemented together. NOTE: Rice Glue is excellent for paper conservation work. Terminology and spellings in the above receipts have been preserved from the original, extraneous copy edited out. All are correct to our period of interest. Additional information on glue can be found searching the archive on Dean's web site. I have been out of town for a few weeks on business and am just now catching up on my e-mail.=20 John=85 Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer kramer@kramerize.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1803 Harper's Ferry Rifle Date: 17 May 1998 19:04:03 EDT In a message dated 5/14/98 5:10:56 PM, you wrote: <> I have a copy of Robert M. Reilly's "United States Martial Flintlocks", that covers the Harpers Ferry rifle, Model 1803, types 1 and 2 in detail. I'd be glad to send you a copy of the pages if you need them, just email me your address. Reilly does mention however ...."It has also been speculated that they (the H Ferry 1803) accompanied the renowned expedition of Lewis and Clark into the Louisiana Territory in 1804, but this seems somewhat unlikely due to the time factors involved." The Model 1803 in both types is historically significant in that it is the only muzzleloading flintlock RIFLE produced in either of the national armories. No rifles with flintlock ignition were ever produced at Springfield A total of 4,015 Model 1803, Type 1 were produced at Harpers Ferry between 1804 and 1807. Most were 54cal, had a 33 inch barrel, and weighed about 9lbs. A substantial number of existing Model 1803 rifles are know to have smoothbore barrels. Wether these were reamed out subsequent to manufacture or were produced as such is not known. Regards, Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Adhesives Date: 17 May 1998 23:54:11 -0400 John as usual you outdid yourself with your response. You are a wealth of knowledge and when you come on line you say it like it is. this should put the glue and adhesives thing to bed I will be storeing your response for future usage. many thanks for your offline help with finishes and your taking the time when i called. Hope you get to turkey hunt and get a big one-with the call i made for you I got a 17 lb gobbler with my 28 gage trade gun this year. used one of my calls and he ran almost over the top of me. came in from my back passed within about 7 or 8 yards and headed for the decoy and started to strut with love on his mind. smoke cleared and bird was down - 5 pellets in his head using a 1 3/4 oz combination of bb and 0000 buck mixed backed with 85 gr fffg. AGAIN ---DARN GOOD INPUT-- KEEP UP THE GOOD INFO. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1803 Harper's Ferry Rifle (THE FOR RUNNER FOR Date: 18 May 1998 00:12:05 -0400 steve: where did you get the book you use for reference-- I would like to get a copy for my library- the photo copies of the pages you sent me gave some darn good info. many thanks. I dropped the guy that had the Jacob dickard a note and asked if he still had the gun I would appreciate some pictures of it for you. haven't got a response from him but if i do i will contact you offline and get you a copy of them for your reference and file. list: It was always my impression that lewis and clark did have 1803 harper's ferries with them and they were the pre production guns to be tested on the frontiers. they had rifled and smoothbore all were in 54 cal or about 28 gage. I saw one that had a .527 bore on it but it had very shallow rifling and a slow twist like it was made to shoot round ball and minnie's and to load easily. it is still my belief that the 1803 rifle and the english sporting rifle were the combination that lead to the Hawkens- Jake and sam used the better points of each and made something that was rugged and dependable-- they copied the lines and style. HERE IS A GOOD DISCUSSION TOPIC. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Sun, 17 May 1998 19:04:03 EDT SWcushing writes: > >In a message dated 5/14/98 5:10:56 PM, you wrote: > ><issued to >the Lews and Clark expedition? >> > >I have a copy of Robert M. Reilly's "United States Martial >Flintlocks", that >covers the Harpers Ferry rifle, Model 1803, types 1 and 2 in detail. >I'd be >glad to send you a copy of the pages if you need them, just email me >your >address. > >Reilly does mention however ...."It has also been speculated that they >(the H >Ferry > 1803) accompanied the renowned expedition of Lewis and Clark into the >Louisiana Territory in 1804, but this seems somewhat unlikely due to >the time >factors involved." The Model 1803 in both types is historically >significant >in that it is the only muzzleloading flintlock RIFLE produced in >either of the >national armories. No rifles with flintlock ignition were ever >produced at >Springfield >A total of 4,015 Model 1803, Type 1 were produced at Harpers Ferry >between >1804 and 1807. Most were 54cal, had a 33 inch barrel, and weighed >about 9lbs. >A substantial number of existing Model 1803 rifles are know to have >smoothbore >barrels. Wether these were reamed out subsequent to manufacture or >were >produced as such is not known. > >Regards, >Steve > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JFLEMYTH Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Adhesives Date: 18 May 1998 07:47:09 EDT Thanks to every one who sent information about adhesives. My wife is really enjoying going through all this. I think I am going to try some of John Kramer's concoctions myself! Again, thanks for all the great input and people on this list! John Fleming ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gail Carbiener" Subject: MtMan-List: Medical Remedies.... Date: 18 May 1998 13:40:48 -0700 Since I am doing living history of a trapper with the Hudson's Bay Company Brigade on the Snake River in 1826, I have been reading as much as possible about those times. Peter Odgen's journals tell of terrible weather, lack of food and of course Indian troubles. Only once do I find and reference to medical problems and that was from eating beaver who were eating hemlock! The medical solution was to drink pepper and gunpowder mixed in water! What about frostbite and freezing of feet, toes, fingers? Odgen even talks about the men not having shoes or blankets, but no talk of men being disabled. Anybody got other references of such problems and how they were treated? Gail (In Cold Central Oregon) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: MtMan-List: Smoke from Mexico Date: 18 May 1998 16:56:35 -0600 (CST) Friends, Now I can relate somewhat to what the folks in Spokane were getting 18 years ago today. The Mexican fires are making the skies here more than a bit hazy. I really cuts the intensity of the sun, and irritates the eyes to boot. Some friends were camping down in Big Bend NP this weekend, and it was pretty intense for them. I can't wait till the winds shift. I hope my gourd plants survive. We need a good thunder boomer. Tears, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Singer - \"Spinner\"" Subject: MtMan-List: stuck touch hole liner Date: 19 May 1998 07:39:25 -0600 Anyone have suggestions on how to remove a stuck touchhole liner? It screws in with a flat bladed screwdriver. I usually don't tighten it hard, but I'm starting to really chew up the slot trying to get it unscrewed. Scott Singer, aka "Spinner" WWW Rendezvous Web Site: http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners Web Site http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KP MTN MAN Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Medical Remedies.... Date: 18 May 1998 23:02:02 EDT I am reading "Journal of a Trapper: Rusell Osbourne" and everytime he mentions some one being maimed, etc they eith er died or went back east to the lowlands. Also ran across a term I wasn't familiar with..a man was afflicted with "Dropsy". My imagination can conjure many images as far as afflictions are concerned, but I would like the actual definition of that one. Thanks. Greenhorn in training. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken " Subject: MtMan-List: smoke Date: 18 May 1998 22:05:39 -0500 Hello the list, What HBC writes is very true. Here in south Texas we have had days where the visibility has been reduced to 1 or 2 miles. Lots of folks are getting sick and some who already have respiratory problems are really having problems. Without air conditioning it would be even worse. Wonder how they coped with things like this in the 1800's? YellowFeather ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: SWcushing Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: 1803 Harper's Ferry Rifle (THE FOR RUNNER FOR THE HAWKINS) Date: 19 May 1998 00:59:31 EDT Hawk.....the last copy I saw of Robert M. Reilly's "United States Martial Flintlocks" was on the web (www.interloc.com) and was rather spendy. The book has been out of print for awhile now but well worth the search if you can locate one. The book is a wealth of information and makes me look like I know what I'm talking about....... Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: MtMan-List: seeds Date: 19 May 1998 05:53:27 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD82EA.71BB4B60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am almost out of canteen gourd seeds. But I have some from other large gourds if anyone wants them. send self address stamped envelope to Jon Towns POB 143 Manchester Wa 98353 ------=_NextPart_000_01BD82EA.71BB4B60 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I am almost out of canteen gourd seeds. =   But I have some from other large gourds if anyone wants = them.  
send self address stamped envelope to
Jon = Towns
POB 143
Manchester Wa 98353

------=_NextPart_000_01BD82EA.71BB4B60-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: stuck touch hole liner Date: 19 May 1998 11:25:44 -0400 SPINNER: you probably have gauled the threads or gave cross threaded then, i see that all the time for the last 20 years i have been making my own tutch hole liners from allen screws without a head on them commonly known as set screws. they are case hardened and tough as a boot. I usually grind the bottom end and that takes the case hardening off. simply hold the screw on the allen wrench and grind to the length that it will not protrude thru the barrel. I place the allen screw in a vise and drill it with a # 55 drill which makes a .052 dia toutch hole. you can go larger if you want but that seems to work good for me and give good ignition. allen set screws have been around since the early or mid 1800 so its almost triditional. the part where the wrench gives a good champer for the spark to go thru with it being about 3 dia's larger than the toutch hole. It comes in various threads and sizes and i normally try to use the fine thread when i am putting in a new one. you can match the threds in your gun. a dab of teflon plummers puddy on the threads lubricates them and will allow you to screw the liner in and out without gaulling it as much. screw in the allen screw and grind with a drimell so that it is flush with the barrel and you have enough allen to remove or install the the screw. to get the old one out drill it with a drill being careful not to get into the threads and use a "easy out" to remove it . us a a tap with the same thread and clean out the hole. you need good tight threads so if they are damaged then you may have to go to the next size up. in that case drill almost thru the barrel and use a bottoming tap and tap to the bottom the slight amount of material will act as a stop for the allen screw. grind the outside of the set screw flush with the barrel one of the neat things is that the allen set screw has a champher on the bottom which forms a v and a natural locator for drilling the toutch hole in the screw. a allen wrench can be carried in the possibles bag and is usually smaller than a screwdriver that is required to take the slotted liners out with. hope i have been of assistance to you and this has answered your questions. you can contact me off line if you have any further questions or problems. e-maiul address is:Hawknest4@juno.com "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Tue, 19 May 1998 07:39:25 -0600 "Scott Singer - \"Spinner\"" writes: >Anyone have suggestions on how to remove a stuck touchhole liner? It >screws >in with a flat bladed screwdriver. I usually don't tighten it hard, >but I'm >starting to really chew up the slot trying to get it unscrewed. >------------------------------------------------------------- >Scott Singer, aka "Spinner" >WWW Rendezvous Web Site: > http://www.geocities.com/~wwwrendezvous >Territorial Dispatch/National Association of Buckskinners Web Site > http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4833 >--------------------------------------------------------------- > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Beaver Club Date: 19 May 1998 09:37:04 -0600 Jim Hardee (Casapy123@aol.com) wrote: > I tend to think >the medallion was worn suspended from a blue ribbon around the neck, >certainly not from the short ribbon with the metal bar such as is being sold. I know what you mean, Jim, I'm always pretty skeptical about reproductions. So I was rather shocked to see that the ribbon on the William McGillivray medal at the Glenbow was, in fact, a short, wide royal blue ribbon. (The other Beaver Club medal(s) at the Glenbow are ribbonless.) It differed from the ribbon on the reproduction in two ways: first, it seemed to be a much better quality ribbon; and second, it had no bar on the top. However, the colour and size of the original & reproduction ribbons are a shockingly good match! It looks like the folks who make the reproduction did their homework. Perhaps the bar was added as a marketing point for the reproduction, so that people could readily fasten the medal to their costumes. It can easily be discarded for greater historic accuracy. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bspen@aye.net (Bob Spencer) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Medical Remedies.... Date: 19 May 1998 11:46:40 -0400 >Also ran across a term I wasn't familiar with..a man was afflicted >with "Dropsy". My imagination can conjure many images as far as afflictions >are concerned, but I would like the actual definition of that one. > >Thanks. > >Greenhorn in training. "Dropsy" is the old lay term for accumulation of too much fluid in the body. The most usual place is in the lower extremities, causing a massive swelling of the feet and legs. Various diseases are responsible for the condition, most usually heart failure, liver failure, or certain kinds of kidney disease. Dropsy is a symptom of several diseases, not a disease in its own right. As an example, cirrhosis of the liver causes what they would have called 'dropsy' in the belly, but we would call the accumulation of fluid in the abdominal cavity 'ascites'. Bob Bob Spencer http://www.aye.net/~bspen/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken " Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Medical Remedies.... Date: 19 May 1998 11:58:34 -0500 dropsy: obsolete term for generalized edema ( excessive amounts of tissue fluid ie: swelling) YellowFeather NREMT-A NRPM ---------- > From: KP MTN MAN > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Medical Remedies.... > Date: Monday, May 18, 1998 10:02 PM > > I am reading "Journal of a Trapper: Rusell Osbourne" and everytime he mentions > some one being maimed, etc they eith er died or went back east to the > lowlands. Also ran across a term I wasn't familiar with..a man was afflicted > with "Dropsy". My imagination can conjure many images as far as afflictions > are concerned, but I would like the actual definition of that one. > > Thanks. > > Greenhorn in training. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken " Subject: MtMan-List: Fw: smoke (serious question) Date: 19 May 1998 13:16:02 -0500 Hello the list, I asked a question and I suppose I should have worded it differently since I have gotten off line remarks that are not relevant to the question. Question was "wonder how they coped with things like this in the 1800's ." I had hoped for serious answers in the same vein as the one's on dropsy or on medicine in the same time period. I am doing fine in my un-airconditioned vehicle and work place, thank you. YMOS Ken YellowFeather ---------- > From: Ken > To: Mtn. Man > Subject: smoke > Date: Monday, May 18, 1998 10:05 PM > > Hello the list, > What HBC writes is very true. Here in south Texas we have had days where > the visibility has been reduced to 1 or 2 miles. Lots of folks are getting > sick and some who already have respiratory problems are really having > problems. Without air conditioning it would be even worse. Wonder how they > coped with things like this in the 1800's? > YellowFeather ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand Subject: Re: MtMan-List: seeds Date: 19 May 1998 17:26:40 EDT Jon, this is traphand i sent you a letter last week about needing some seeds did you get it.please relay traphand@aol.com . traphand ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kay Fritsch" (by way of John Kramer ) (by way of Dean Rudy ) Subject: MtMan-List: war paint Date: 19 May 1998 21:00:00 -0600 Does anyone out there have any info on woodland indians(pictures,documents, articles, sketches)? I'm looking for mainly info on clothes, but anything would be a big help, like info on weapons, shelter, equiptment, leather stuff, buckskin clothes, etc. Also, if anyone has ANYTHING on war paint. i would prefer it from thewoodland indians, but any tribe would do. Thanks, fritsch@mhtc.net "Keep your stick on the ice" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KP MTN MAN Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Medical Remedies.... Date: 19 May 1998 23:24:38 EDT Thanks for the info. Not exactly what I had envisioned, but that dog will hunt. Greenhorn ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean Rudy Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: smoke (serious question) Date: 19 May 1998 22:00:10 -0600 At 01:16 PM 5/19/98 -0500, Yellowfeather wrote: >> Hello the list, >> What HBC writes is very true. Here in south Texas we have had days where >> the visibility has been reduced to 1 or 2 miles. Lots of folks are >getting >> sick and some who already have respiratory problems are really having >> problems. Without air conditioning it would be even worse. Wonder how >they >> coped with things like this in the 1800's? > The mountain men had the same problem: "A knowledge of these dangers deterred Captain Bonneville, in the present instance, from detaching small parties of trappers as he had intended; for his scouts brought him word that formidable bands of the Banneck Indians were lying on the Boisee and Payette Rivers, at no great distance, so that they would be apt to detect and cut off any stragglers. It behooved him, also, to keep his party together, to guard against any predatory attack upon the main body; he continued on his way, therefore, without dividing his forces. And fortunate it was that he did so; for in a little while he encountered one of the phenomena of the western wilds that would effectually have prevented his scattered people from finding each other again. In a word, it was the season of setting fire to the prairies. As he advanced he began to perceive great clouds of smoke at a distance, rising by degrees, and spreading over the whole face of the country. The atmosphere became dry and surcharged with murky vapor, parching to the skin, and irritating to the eyes. When travelling among the hills, they could scarcely discern objects at the distance of a few paces; indeed, the least exertion of the vision was painful. There was evidently some vast conflagration in the direction toward which they were proceeding; it was as yet at a great distance, and during the day they could only see the smoke rising in larger and denser volumes, and rolling forth in an immense canopy. At night the skies were all glowing with the reflection of unseen fires, hanging in an immense body of lurid light high above the horizon. " ...... "During four days that the party were ascending Gun Creek, the smoke continued to increase so rapidly that it was impossible to distinguish the face of the country and ascertain landmarks. Fortunately, the travellers fell upon an Indian trail. which led them to the head-waters of the Fourche de Glace or Ice River, sometimes called the Grand Rond. Here they found all the plains and valleys wrapped in one vast conflagration; which swept over the long grass in billows of flame, shot up every bush and tree, rose in great columns from the groves, and set up clouds of smoke that darkened the atmosphere. To avoid this sea of fire, the travellers had to pursue their course close along the foot of the mountains; but the irritation from the smoke continued to be tormenting. " >From chapter 44: Irving, Washington, The adventures of Captain Bonneville U.S.A., in the Rocky Mountains and the Far West. Digested from his journal, Author's revised edition. Complete in one volume, New York: George P. Putnam, 155 Broadway, and 142 Strand, London. 1849. Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: war paint Date: 20 May 1998 00:20:18 -0400 kay: suggest you hit " Barns and Nobels book store. they had a excellent book on indians that they had on sale in our area a bout a month ago. the name of it was The native american an illustrated history with a ISBN # 1-878685-42-2. it was written by a combination of authors and had in the back the family chart for all the different indian tribes and the area of the country that they were located in. it is very pictorial and has good descriptions that go along with the photographs.. It is the companion book that goes with turner broadcasting presentation "The native americans, Beyond the myths" which was a television series. The contributing authors for the book were: David Hurst Thomas Jay Miller Richard White Peter Nabokov Philip J. Deloria each of the authors also have books that they have published in their area of expertise. I probably could give you a lot more information but your question was not specific. in what area of the woodland indians and the time period that you are interested in there are over 80 different tribes in the northeast with the main family line being the Algonquin or the Iroquoian. the main family lines for the south east being Algonquian, muskogean,iroquoian. siouian with about 30 tribes that belong to the main family lines. so you can see you need to be a little more specific in the area of the country you are interested in and if you know a tribe let me know. if you don't then just give me the state or area you are interested in and i can see what i might have available in my reference library that i can xerox or scan for you. You might also send $20.00 to the national museum of the american indian @ p.o. box 65303 washington D.C. and become a member and recieve their magazine on Native peoples. they are a part of smithonian and have all of the Heye collection of indian artifacts which contain over a million items of indian history. In 1989 the us congress passed a law creating the museum of the American indian which is the 15th museum of the smithsonian institute. the museum is located in New York City and will be on the mall in washington Dc around the year 2000. the above reference shows war paint and costumes and weapons and a lot of neet stuff. hope i have been of assistance to you and feel free to contact me offline at Hawknest4@juno.com if you have further questions. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Tue, 19 May 1998 21:00:00 -0600 "Kay Fritsch" (by way of John Kramer ) (by way of Dean Rudy ) writes: > >Does anyone out there have any info on woodland >indians(pictures,documents, articles, sketches)? I'm looking for >mainly >info on >clothes, but anything would be a big help, like info on weapons, >shelter, >equiptment, leather stuff, buckskin clothes, etc. >Also, if anyone has ANYTHING on war paint. i would prefer it from >thewoodland indians, but any tribe would do. > > >Thanks, >fritsch@mhtc.net >"Keep your stick on the ice" > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gary Bell Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Medical Remedies.... Date: 19 May 1998 22:57:26 -0700 Dropsy n. (derived through Middle English dropesie, short for ydroppesie, from Old French and Latin hydropisis, a modification of Greek hydrops, from hydor -- relating to water), edema, particularly an abnormal accumulation of fluid in the abdomen, chest or legs producing a turgid or stiff swelling, frequently connoting a circulatory failure of some sort. KP MTN MAN wrote: > I am reading "Journal of a Trapper: Rusell Osbourne" and everytime he mentions > some one being maimed, etc they eith er died or went back east to the > lowlands. Also ran across a term I wasn't familiar with..a man was afflicted > with "Dropsy". My imagination can conjure many images as far as afflictions > are concerned, but I would like the actual definition of that one. > > Thanks. > > Greenhorn in training. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gary Bell Subject: Re: MtMan-List: smoke Date: 19 May 1998 23:12:54 -0700 Are y'all talkin' smoke or smog here? Given how mobile these folks were can you imagine the trappers hanging around a natural fire? I understand than native folk set lots of fires out here in the big valleys of Western Oregon, to clear away shrubs and trees and preserve the open grasslands. With the thunderstorms of the Rockies and the midwest I imagine that prairie and foothill summers and autumns featured a good number of grass and timber fires. How about the history buffs out there? Any significant references to interaction of the trapper folks with grass or timber fires? Gary Bell still workin' on the mountain name Ken wrote: > Hello the list, > What HBC writes is very true. Here in south Texas we have had days where > the visibility has been reduced to 1 or 2 miles. Lots of folks are getting > sick and some who already have respiratory problems are really having > problems. Without air conditioning it would be even worse. Wonder how they > coped with things like this in the 1800's? > YellowFeather ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: war paint Date: 20 May 1998 07:16:12 -0500 Kay, A real good source for Woodland Indian info is the book "Indian Handicrafts" by C. Keith Wilbur. I don't have the ISDN or anything here at work, but could get it if you need it. The book has everything from gardening to making your own beads out of shells, cloths, traps, dyes, wigwams, and lots more. Your most humble servant, Scott Allen http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tedhart@juno.com (Ted A Hart) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: war paint Date: 20 May 1998 07:40:05 EDT War paint's not a subject that should be broached with American Indians. It's now passed by family..specific colors and also certain tribes have certain colors that they use although nowdays it's still impolite to inquire IHMO. Ted _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: seanbear Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Medical Remedies.... Date: 20 May 1998 08:24:56 -0400 Dropsy was an old term meaning the retention of fluid in the body... ie... like retention of water secondary to high blood pressure today. Symptoms were swelling of the feet , ankles, and lower legs, bloated feeling... etc... Addison Miller -----Original Message----- >I am reading "Journal of a Trapper: Rusell Osbourne" and everytime he mentions >some one being maimed, etc they eith er died or went back east to the >lowlands. Also ran across a term I wasn't familiar with..a man was afflicted >with "Dropsy". My imagination can conjure many images as far as afflictions >are concerned, but I would like the actual definition of that one. > >Thanks. > >Greenhorn in training. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: smoke Date: 20 May 1998 09:47:15 -0600 (CST) >Are y'all talkin' smoke or smog here? I don't know what it was to the trappers, but here in Texas it's definitely smoke. South Texas has it a bit worse, where it actually does resemble smog. Here in Lubbock, it's an upper atmospheric haze, where you can't see the blue sky on a cloudless day. We're starting to get some relief, because the dry line is finally moving east, so dry Southwesterly winds are pushing it all away. The sky is getting blue again. Cheers once again, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: CT OAKES Subject: Re: MtMan-List: stuck touch hole liner Date: 20 May 1998 11:05:39 EDT At your local hardware store you can buy a set of screw extractors. They are not expensive and come in handy. To use them you drill out the touch hole a little and insert the right size extractor and turn left/counter clockwise. The extractor has a really exaggerated tread that will grab the hole and make it turn. Then go buy a new liner and you are back in business. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: war paint Date: 20 May 1998 12:12:45 -0400 kay: One other reference book that you might look at is "Warriors" warfair and the american indian By Norman bancroft hunt ISBN# 0-517-14033-0 sold by Barns and nobel book store-- primarily chapters 0ne, two and three. gives weapons and info on the warrier societies-- some pictures of paint-- watch the family lines it may not be what you are looking for each tribe or family line had a specific color or pattern that they used as a identification and as a status symbol. paint is a special thing to each and sometimes not fully documented except for a specific family groop. sometimes considered religious in nature. contact me off line if you have any questions. @ Hawknest4@juno.com "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Medical Remedies.... Date: 20 May 1998 10:22:39 -0700 (PDT) Hallo Gail On Mon, 18 May 1998, Gail Carbiener wrote: > Anybody got other references of such problems and how they were treated? A good read is the current Lewis biography called "Undaunted Courage" by Ambrose. Merriweather Lewis was pretty up to date on medicine of the day... as much as any doctor I begin to think.... anyway, the book covers with some detail the day to day care of medical problems, however, having said that.... Capt Lewis treated just about every ill with a super purgative "Dr Rush's Lightning Pills". For VD (syphilis) mecury was the treatment of choice. Dr Rush stated...."When you feel the least indisposition, do not attempt to overcome it by labour or marching. Rest in a horizontal posture. Also fasting and diluting drinks for a day or two will genrally prevent an attack of fever. To these preventatives of disease may be added a gentle sweat obtained by warm drinks, or gently opening the bowels by means of one, two, or more of the purging pills." Dr Rush's pills were composed of calomel, a misture of six parts mercury to one part cholorine, and jalap, apparently all of these drugs were good laxitives, and when combined... well, the results were "explosive" (pg 89) The only frostbite they discuss was Clark's slave (York)... and he got frostbitten on the penis (of all places). Later, while in winter camp on the Columbia (Oregon), the book discusses the amputation of frostbitten toes (local Indians). The Fort Clatsop period is the most intensive in medical discussion as there was always someone suffering from colds, muscle strains, syphilis, etc.) My readings haven't really come up with anything other than bleeding the poor SOB, administering purgatives (Dr Rush's were laced with Mercury by the way), or cutting off the affected body parts. There was also of course Laudinum (sp), apparently a powerful narcotic to dull pain. Seems to me that surviving the injury/illness was the first part of being sick, surviving the doctor's treatment was the second :) Regards Lee Newbill Viola, Idaho email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Smoke from Mexico Date: 20 May 1998 14:12:27 EDT In a message dated 98-05-18 19:13:30 EDT, you write: << Now I can relate somewhat to what the folks in Spokane were getting 18 years ago today. The Mexican fires are making the skies here more than a bit hazy. ------------------------->> That smoke creeped all the way up here over the weekend in the St. Louis area, mostly on Friday, seemed to have blown out on Sat. and Sun. Longhsot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Darrel Grubbs Subject: MtMan-List: Convert or not Date: 20 May 1998 16:20:27 -0500 -- Darrel Grubbs, MICT, EMT I/C Adjunct EMS Instructor HCC Emergency Services Academy I'm wondering if I should attempt a CVA cap to flint conversion? Is it hard? Safe? and Cost effective? Where do I find the parts? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123 Subject: Re: MtMan-List: smoke Date: 20 May 1998 22:45:04 EDT Check "The West of Alfred Jacob Miller," page 198 for a painting Miller did called "Prairie on Fire." Miller's notes say "Towards the Fall the grass, which has attained the height of 3 or 4 feet, becomes parched and dry. It is then very infalmmable and either by accident or design takes fire. The manner of its approach is insidious enough; at first a slight haze is seen near the horizon, but the experienced eye of the Trapper or Indian immediately detects the nature of the visitor, and all hands in the camp are immediately busy in setting fire to the long grass about them;-not suffring it to make much headway, but beating it down with cloths & blankets. In this manner large spaces are cleared, horses, mules, and tents are secured in the burnt areas, which are enlarged as time permits, and escape from certain death is thus averated through a very simple process. The fire sweeps round with the speed of a race horse, licking up every thing that it touches with tis fiery tongue,-leaving nothing in its train but a blackened heath." Essentailly, they set a backfire! Jim Hardee AMM#1676 P.O. Box 1228 Quincy, CA 95971 (530)283-4566 (H) (530)283-3330 (W) (530)283-5171 FAX Casapy123@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123 Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Medical Remedies.... Date: 20 May 1998 22:45:01 EDT If you are interested in medical remedies used by Lewis and Clark, one of the best resources is "Only One Man Died, the Medical Aspects of the Lewis and Clark Expedition." by Eldon G. Chuinard, MD. It was originally published by the Arthur H. Clark Co. in Glendale, CA. in two editions of 1000 copies each. As such, it is currently out of print and difficult to find. It was reprinted by Ye Galleon Press out of Fairfield, WA in 1979. This edition is fairly findable for around $30.00. Don't know if there are any more current paper back issues by any of the University presses. Jim Hardee AMM#1676 P.O. Box 1228 Quincy, CA 95971 (530)283-4566 (H) (530)283-3330 (W) (530)283-5171 FAX Casapy123@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Les Chaffin Subject: MtMan-List: Cache Valley Date: 20 May 1998 18:31:14 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E25AB7096074CB5F50595812 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When is the Cache Valley rendezvous? Les --------------E25AB7096074CB5F50595812 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Les Chaffin Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Les Chaffin n: Chaffin ;Les org: Twin Falls Computer Center Mgr. adr;dom: 34 Barton Lane;;;Twin Falls;Idaho;83301; email;internet: chaflesl@isu.edu title: Idaho State University tel;work: 208-736-2119 tel;fax: 208-236-4836 tel;home: 208-736-6002 x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: TRUE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------E25AB7096074CB5F50595812-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken " Subject: MtMan-List: Smoked Date: 20 May 1998 22:40:47 -0500 I wanted to say thanks to Dean and Jim for the history and suggestions. This is exactly the kind of information that I was hoping for. It looks as though they were not much different from some of us today when it comes to adversity and how they dealt with it. YMOS, Ken YellowFeather ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gary Bell Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Medical Remedies.... Date: 21 May 1998 02:53:58 -0700 Lee: Laudinum is a tincture or extract of opium in alcohol. The stuff makes Darvon look like candy, and very adictive if given in any quantity or for any significant period of time. Gary Bell Lee Newbill wrote: > Hallo Gail > > On Mon, 18 May 1998, Gail Carbiener wrote: > > Anybody got other references of such problems and how they were treated? > > A good read is the current Lewis biography called "Undaunted Courage" by > Ambrose. Merriweather Lewis was pretty up to date on medicine of the > day... as much as any doctor I begin to think.... anyway, the book covers > with some detail the day to day care of medical problems, however, having > said that.... Capt Lewis treated just about every ill with a super > purgative "Dr Rush's Lightning Pills". For VD (syphilis) mecury was the > treatment of choice. > > Dr Rush stated...."When you feel the least indisposition, do not attempt > to overcome it by labour or marching. Rest in a horizontal posture. > Also fasting and diluting drinks for a day or two will genrally prevent > an attack of fever. To these preventatives of disease may be added a > gentle sweat obtained by warm drinks, or gently opening the bowels by > means of one, two, or more of the purging pills." Dr Rush's pills were > composed of calomel, a misture of six parts mercury to one part cholorine, > and jalap, apparently all of these drugs were good laxitives, and when > combined... well, the results were "explosive" (pg 89) > > The only frostbite they discuss was Clark's slave (York)... and he got > frostbitten on the penis (of all places). Later, while in winter camp on > the Columbia (Oregon), the book discusses the amputation of frostbitten > toes (local Indians). > > The Fort Clatsop period is the most intensive in medical discussion as > there was always someone suffering from colds, muscle strains, syphilis, > etc.) > > My readings haven't really come up with anything other than bleeding the > poor SOB, administering purgatives (Dr Rush's were laced with Mercury by > the way), or cutting off the affected body parts. There was also of course > Laudinum (sp), apparently a powerful narcotic to dull pain. Seems to me > that surviving the injury/illness was the first part of being sick, > surviving the doctor's treatment was the second :) > > Regards > > Lee Newbill > Viola, Idaho > email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu > Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage > http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dammiller@juno.com (David A. Miller) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cache Valley Date: 21 May 1998 10:21:39 -0700 The Cache Rendezvous is this weekend, from Friday until Monday (22-25 May 98) Have fun! Dave Miller _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Medical Remedies....Frostbite Date: 21 May 1998 10:52:31 -0600 Since Canadian fur traders were exposed to much colder conditions than the American mountain men, you would expect them to be frostbitten fairly frequently. Voyageurs, however, seems to have regarded frostbite as being easily preventable. When George Back's servant, Beauparlant (who "had been a long time in the country") got frostbite on his face, the voyageur felt badly, "for there is a pride amongst old 'voyageurs' which considers freezing oneself as clownish--and only excusable in a 'Pork-Eater' or a peasant just come from Canada." (Dec. 29, 1820; Back, p. 107, _Arctic Artist_, C.S. Houston, ed.) Beauparlant got frostbite when he was north of Fort Chipewyan on Lake Athabasca. Despite this, I have found some cases of frostbite in Canadian fur trade journals of my 1774-1821 period. In only two cases, however is a treatment recorded. George Back wrote, on May 25, 1820, that "Those who are frozen feel it on approaching to the fire and immediately rub the place with Snow, but the skin is certain of being penetrated and much pain endured--" (Back, 314). This practice is, of course, NOT recommended today. In 1775, Robert Longmoor's big toes got frostbitten when he was at Cumberland House (on the Saskatchewan/Alberta border). "This Morning I lay'd Rob't Longmoor's Toes open which are froze to the Bone, and as the Medican box which ware fitted up at the Fort for this Place is with Mr. Cocking we have not the least thing to apply to it, except the inner Rind of the Larch Tree Root which is generally us'd among the Natives to Stop or Prevent a Mortification" (i.e., gangrene) (p. 139, Samuel Hearne, _Journals of Hearne & Turnor_, J. B. Tyrrell, ed.) In Hearne's description, you can see the usual pattern of Canadian fur trade medicine. First, they'd check the Fort's medicine box for something to treat the problem (bleeding was also a popular option). The historic equivalent of Aspirin for Canadian fur traders was the patent medicine "Turlington's Balsam of Life". Unlike most other medical treatments that were used, it does not seem to have been an emetic, a purgative, or have similar nasty effects, which perhaps explains its popularity in less serious cases. (Turlington's was also popular with Natives, and formed an article of trade; broken Turlington's bottles often turn up when fur posts are excavated.) If the medicine box wasn't available, or let them down, then they might turn to Native remedies, usually in the form of herbal teas (which could be powerful purges or emetics) or poultices. If one treatment failed, then another might be tried, and then another, and so on, until a) the case was regarded as untreatable; b) the patient recovered; or c) the patient died. For more on medicine in the Canadian fur trade, 1774-1821, check out the article "Medicine in the Northwest" in Northwest Journal, vol. 7. See www.telusplanet.net/public/gottfred/nwj.html for information on how to order. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred Editor, Northwest Journal agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: stuck touch hole liner Date: 21 May 1998 13:07:17 -0400 getting the liner out i feel is not his total problem ---he has probably cross threaded the threads and will probably have to retap as i stated in my previous posting. if he replaces the liner without cleaning out the threads he hasn't solved his problem only given it a extension in time wherby gasses from the gun fireing will burn out the threads and cause him to blowout the tutchhole liner---THIS IS DANGEROUS> You should fix the total problem and not just solve a superficial one-----I have been down this monkeys back before and make sure thet the liner is put in right.. I never recomend taking out the liner to clean the gun, because of the cross threading and the posibility of blowby ruining the threads if not installed back properly. a teflon thread lubricant and sealer will help to stop blowby. Normally I use a thread locking compound on the liner to help seal and lock the liner in place. The liner secondary purpose is to reduce the distance the spark has to travel to get to the main powder charge and give faster ignition. most are champhered on the inside to accomplish this. THE LINER SHOULD ALWAYS BE PUT IN SNUG WITHOUT GAULING OR DAMAGEING THE THREADS. OVER TORKING WILL STREACH THE THREADS AND COULD BE ALSO DANGEROUS--CREATES A POSIBILITY OF BLOWOUT OF THE LINER. Just because it has a screwdriver slot doesnt mean that it is normaly removed for cleaning. place the barrel in a bucket of sopy water and use your cleaning rod with a patch. dry the barrel and oil lightly with wd-40 or equiv to displace the moisture is all you need. use rigg or equivelant to keep the barrel from rusting if not used for extended periods. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Wed, 20 May 1998 11:05:39 EDT CT OAKES writes: >At your local hardware store you can buy a set of screw extractors. >They are >not expensive and come in handy. To use them you drill out the touch >hole a >little and insert the right size extractor and turn left/counter >clockwise. >The extractor has a really exaggerated tread that will grab the hole >and make >it turn. Then go buy a new liner and you are back in business. > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gail Carbiener" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Medical Remedies.... Date: 21 May 1998 10:35:34 -0700 Lee/Jim/Gary....others I have ordered the book by Ambrose about Lewis and Clark! This is a bit before the Mountain Man era that I am looking at however. The period 1820 to 1840 - both the Americans and Hudson's Bay Company guys. I've got most of the usual books - Bridger, Odgen, Glass, Meek, Ruxton's, Russell's, etc. but still not much on frostbite or other illnesses and solutions. You would think they would put some of this in their journals. Maybe not! Gail -----Original Message----- >Lee: > >Laudinum is a tincture or extract of opium in alcohol. The stuff makes Darvon >look like candy, and very adictive if given in any quantity or for any significant >period of time. > >Gary Bell > >Lee Newbill wrote: > >> Hallo Gail >> >> On Mon, 18 May 1998, Gail Carbiener wrote: >> > Anybody got other references of such problems and how they were treated? >> >> A good read is the current Lewis biography called "Undaunted Courage" by >> Ambrose. Merriweather Lewis was pretty up to date on medicine of the >> day... as much as any doctor I begin to think.... anyway, the book covers >> with some detail the day to day care of medical problems, however, having >> said that.... Capt Lewis treated just about every ill with a super >> purgative "Dr Rush's Lightning Pills". For VD (syphilis) mecury was the >> treatment of choice. >> >> Dr Rush stated...."When you feel the least indisposition, do not attempt >> to overcome it by labour or marching. Rest in a horizontal posture. >> Also fasting and diluting drinks for a day or two will genrally prevent >> an attack of fever. To these preventatives of disease may be added a >> gentle sweat obtained by warm drinks, or gently opening the bowels by >> means of one, two, or more of the purging pills." Dr Rush's pills were >> composed of calomel, a misture of six parts mercury to one part cholorine, >> and jalap, apparently all of these drugs were good laxitives, and when >> combined... well, the results were "explosive" (pg 89) >> >> The only frostbite they discuss was Clark's slave (York)... and he got >> frostbitten on the penis (of all places). Later, while in winter camp on >> the Columbia (Oregon), the book discusses the amputation of frostbitten >> toes (local Indians). >> >> The Fort Clatsop period is the most intensive in medical discussion as >> there was always someone suffering from colds, muscle strains, syphilis, >> etc.) >> >> My readings haven't really come up with anything other than bleeding the >> poor SOB, administering purgatives (Dr Rush's were laced with Mercury by >> the way), or cutting off the affected body parts. There was also of course >> Laudinum (sp), apparently a powerful narcotic to dull pain. Seems to me >> that surviving the injury/illness was the first part of being sick, >> surviving the doctor's treatment was the second :) >> >> Regards >> >> Lee Newbill >> Viola, Idaho >> email at lnewbill@uidaho.edu >> Keeper of the "Buckskins & Blackpowder!" Webpage >> http://www.uidaho.edu/~lnewbill/bp.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cache Valley Date: 21 May 1998 14:06:34 -0600 (CST) >The Cache Rendezvous is this weekend, from Friday until Monday (22-25 May >98) > >Have fun! > Where's this Cache Valley. Just about every state in the west has one. :-) HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn Subject: MtMan-List: War Paint Date: 21 May 1998 15:57:30 -0500 Washtahay- gosh, 30 years hanging out with members of various tribes, being adopted into several families, being a member of 2 warrior societies, and no one bothered to tell me that it was impolite to talk about war paint, or that colors and patterns were passed by family, or the use of certain colors by certain tribes. I have never heard that each tribe or family had specific colors or patterns. Shucks, what will they think of next? So, you folks are basically saying that the tribes were prototypical LA gangs? Gotta be careful about wearing the other guys' colors? Straight up, I have drawings of over 100 individuals' war paints. Not the stuff they might wear at a powwow, but war patterns. I have the meanings/symbolisms for about 75-85 of these-everyone I have been able to interview. No one has ever declined to discuss patterns, when approached in a appropriate manner (tho an awful lot of people have requested their info not be published). Yeah, some of the patterns are copies of early family members-hey, if Catlin painted a pic of my g-g-grampa I might do the same. Most of the patterns are religion related. A few are relics of past military service, or tributes to fallen comrades or family members. Please don't fall into the pattern of thinking that war paint, or robe painting, or petroglyphs, or whatever are just Amerind versions of European heraldry. THIS IS THE FIRST PLACE I HAVE EVER RUN ACROSS MENTION THAT PATTERNS WERE TRIBAL OR FAMILY. I would really love to hear the references on this. LongWalker c du B ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Les Chaffin Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cache Valley Date: 21 May 1998 18:15:42 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------027D9CE139EB7E2F59EA1A84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cache Valley is in Northern Utah and Southern Idaho. The Rendezvous is near Logan, Utah. Les Henry B. Crawford wrote: > > >The Cache Rendezvous is this weekend, from Friday until Monday (22-25 May > >98) > > > >Have fun! > > > > Where's this Cache Valley. Just about every state in the west has one. :-) > HBC > > ***************************************** > Henry B. Crawford Curator of History > mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University > 806/742-2442 Box 43191 > FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 > WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum > ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* --------------027D9CE139EB7E2F59EA1A84 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Les Chaffin Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Les Chaffin n: Chaffin ;Les org: Twin Falls Computer Center Mgr. adr;dom: 34 Barton Lane;;;Twin Falls;Idaho;83301; email;internet: chaflesl@isu.edu title: Idaho State University tel;work: 208-736-2119 tel;fax: 208-236-4836 tel;home: 208-736-6002 x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: TRUE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------027D9CE139EB7E2F59EA1A84-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Convert or not Date: 21 May 1998 19:37:55 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD84EF.F3DF74C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Years ago I did it with a CVA Mt pistol worked real well Later Jon T ---------- : From: Darrel Grubbs : To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com : Subject: MtMan-List: Convert or not : Date: Wednesday, May 20, 1998 2:20 PM : : : : -- : Darrel Grubbs, MICT, EMT I/C : Adjunct EMS Instructor : HCC Emergency Services Academy : : : : I'm wondering if I should attempt a CVA cap to flint conversion? Is it : hard? Safe? and Cost effective? Where do I find the parts? ------=_NextPart_000_01BD84EF.F3DF74C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Years ago I did it with a CVA Mt pistol = worked real well Later Jon T

----------
: From: Darrel Grubbs = <grubbsd@hutchcc.edu>
: To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
: Subject: MtMan-List: Convert or not
: Date: = Wednesday, May 20, 1998 2:20 PM
:
:
:
: --
: Darrel = Grubbs, MICT, EMT I/C
: Adjunct EMS Instructor
: HCC Emergency = Services Academy
:
:
:
: I'm wondering if I should = attempt a CVA cap to flint conversion?  Is it
: hard? Safe? and = Cost effective?  Where do I find the parts?

------=_NextPart_000_01BD84EF.F3DF74C0-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dean Rudy Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cache Valley Date: 21 May 1998 21:59:12 -0600 >Henry B. Crawford wrote: >> >> Where's this Cache Valley. Just about every state in the west has one. :-) and Les replied: >Cache Valley is in Northern Utah and Southern Idaho. The Rendezvous is >near Logan, Utah. > To elaborate on Les's answer: ".... We killed a grizzly bear on the evening of the eighteenth [July, 1830], and emerging from the mountain-pass early on the following day, came to Cache Valley, one of the most extensive and beautiful vales of the Rocky Mountain range. This valley, called also by some, the Willow Valley, is situated about thirty miles due west of the Little Lake [Bear Lake], from which the passage is so nearly impracticable, that it requires two days to perform the distance - at least by the route we came. It lies parallel with the Little Lake, extending nearly north and south; is sixty miles long, and fifteen to twenty broad, and is shut in on every side by lofty mountains. Numerous willow-skirted streams, that intersect and diversify it, unite and flow into Bear River, which crosses the valley, and after cutting its way through a low bald mountain, falls into the Big Lake [Great Salt Lake], distant twenty miles to the west. Cache Valley is abundantly fertile, producing every where most excellent grass, and has ever for that reason, been a favorite resort for both men and animals, especially in the winter. Indeed, many of the best hunters assert that the weather is much milder here than elsewhere, which is an additional inducement for visiting it during that inclement season. It received its name from a melancholy incident that occurred in it a few years ago. The circumstances are briefly these: - A man in the employ of Smith, Sublette and Jackson, was engaged with a detached party, in constructing one of those subterranean vaults for the reception of furs, already described. The cache was nearly completed, when a large quantity of earth fell in upon the poor fellow, and completely buried him alive. His companions believed him to have been instantly killed, knew him to be well buried, and the cache destroyed, and therefore left him "Unknelled, uncoffined, ne'er to rise, Till Gabriel's trumpet shakes the skies," and accomplished their object elsewhere. It was a heartless, cruel procedure, but serves to show how lightly human life is held in these distant wilds. " -W. A. Ferris, 1830 Dean Rudy AMM#1530 Email: drudy@xmission.com Park City, Utah WWW: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry Behm Subject: MtMan-List: mountain name Date: 22 May 1998 00:12:35 -0400 = >Gary Bell >still working on the mountain name Gary, coming up with a mountain name is no work at all, just follow thes= e instructions: 1. attend any Rendezvous 2. make sure several people are looking at you, the more the better. 3. do something real STUPID!!! Voila! you will instantly have a new name (or maybe several to choose from). Padre Rolf ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MIA3WOLVES Subject: Re: MtMan-List: War Paint Date: 22 May 1998 06:39:55 EDT In reference to war paint, I would like to see references on both sides of this argument. Familial,or non. A most interesting discussion. Red Hawk Quillwork Trading ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gary Bell Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mountain name Date: 22 May 1998 07:53:53 -0700 Terry Behm wrote: > >Gary Bell > >still working on the mountain name > > Gary, coming up with a mountain name is no work at all, just follow these > instructions: > > 1. attend any Rendezvous > > 2. make sure several people are looking at you, the more the better. > > 3. do something real STUPID!!! > > Voila! you will instantly have a new name (or maybe several to choose > from). > > Padre Rolf Thanks Padre! I need to get working on number one; two looks easy, given my greenhorn status and incomplete outfit; and three is a downright cinch. I will easilly provide enough material for number three to be a contest! NoName ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: dammiller@juno.com (David A. Miller) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Cache Valley Date: 22 May 1998 09:05:04 -0700 The "Cache Valley" in this instance is located up Blacksmith's Fork, In Logan Utah. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Htorr Subject: MtMan-List: Indian Face Paint Date: 22 May 1998 12:34:19 EDT Hi! While not really a "mountain man" myself I enjoy reading all the mail. I work with the Scouts and the Order of the Arrow. They do a lot of Indian Dancing and use costuming during the ceremonies. Apparently they had a discussion on this with people from the American Indian Movement and at a National Order of the Arrow Convention (NOAC) a few years ago this was what was decided: 1. No face paint is permitted. 2. No wigs are permitted. The argument on the face paint is that somebody would look at an old photograph and duplicate the face painting. According to what was discussed the families often had their distinctive face painting and they would consider it disrespectful for someone else to wear their distinctive markings. Similar things have gone on with college and sports teams. The Stanford University sports teams are no longer called the Indians, and there is a lot of discussion about the baseball teams, Braves, Indians, etc. There is even pressure at the High School in Orr, Minnesota to not call themselves the Orr Braves. The irony is about half of the students come from the Nett Lake Indian Reservation. Respectfully, Tom Orr ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mountain name Date: 22 May 1998 16:10:02 EDT In a message dated 98-05-22 10:08:53 EDT, you write: << Gary, coming up with a mountain name is no work at all, just follow these instructions: 1. attend any Rendezvous 2. make sure several people are looking at you, the more the better. 3. do something real STUPID!!! Voila! you will instantly have a new name (or maybe several to choose from). >> Case in point, this past weekend a guy I know who has been ronnyvvoin' fer the last 4 years and never got a camp name, got one he don't much like. He got a little too wasted on pie and such and fell on another friends tent 4 times and the last time ripped a loop out of the tent. May be forever know as Rip-A-Tent Longshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Mullen Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mountain name Date: 22 May 1998 16:46:15 +0000 The only hard part is the justification for having a "mountain name". In my readings I have seen plenty of references to nick-names (ie. Old Gabe, Squire and The Judge), and references to Indian given names (ie. Broken Hand, Blanket Chief). I have yet to find any references to any trapper or trader refering to any other individual as "Ol' Grizz", "Two Dogs Fornicating" or any other "mountain name". I know there are many who are enamoured with the concept of "mountain names" and would love to see the justificatiion for their use. Just something to ponder. Hope Ya'll have a safe Memorial Day Weekend, YMHOS, David Mullen --------------- David Mullen "Don't need a "mountain man" name, my mother named me David!!"-- 202 Mesa Verde Jemez Springs, NM 87025 505.829.3212 email:dmullen@jemez.com Terry Behm wrote: > > > >Gary Bell > >still working on the mountain name > > Gary, coming up with a mountain name is no work at all, just follow these > instructions: > > 1. attend any Rendezvous > > 2. make sure several people are looking at you, the more the better. > > 3. do something real STUPID!!! > > Voila! you will instantly have a new name (or maybe several to choose > from). > > Padre Rolf ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: war paint Date: 22 May 1998 21:07:25 -0600 Ted, I totally disagree with your statement on war paint. The majority of Plain warriors paint was a personal thing. Colors and design were personal. These could be bought, traded, given by another person. Certain paints were only used for specific ceremonies, such as Sun Dance, Puberty etc. Paints used today by many western Indians have less to do with history but rather what is available, what is accepted by the family or grandfather if a sun dance. It is not impolite to inquire or use paints for one's personal use. There is way too much mystery assocaited with Indians. It is as if we have given the race a touch of magic and it is forbbion for anyone else to use or practice. Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Write for custom tanning prices We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and hair on robes Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: War Paint Date: 22 May 1998 21:11:16 -0600 Longwalker, Thank you, a rather splended response Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Write for custom tanning prices We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and hair on robes Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian Face Paint Date: 22 May 1998 21:20:37 -0600 Tom, The AIM movement is a joke. I am so tired of hearing the BS about the chip on Indian's shoulders and how the whites should repay them forever. They should realize that if every defeated race got what they did, the world would be one big welfare thing. I have many older Indian friends and relatives and most believe the reservation thing is a BAD thing. Move on and get a job. Ask the jews, the irish, the blacks. It is just a total waste of goverment money to fund stupid projects. Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Write for custom tanning prices We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and hair on robes Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Casapy123 Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mountain name Date: 23 May 1998 01:22:27 EDT David Mullen speaks for me too in regards to "mountain names." I haven't seen a reference as such either. Have seen plenty of names like David described as nick-names and perhaps that is what everyone is patterning these "mountain names" after. However, the names I hear sound like attempts to make Indian- sounding names. I'd truly like to see some references. Jim Hardee AMM#1676 P. O. Box 1228 Quincy, CA 95971 (530)283-4566 (H) (530)283-3330 (W) (530)283-5171 FAX Casapy123@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "mary bunney corkran" Subject: MtMan-List: Poison Ivy Date: 23 May 1998 06:56:15 PDT I am looking for information on Poison Ivy. mary ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "mary bunney corkran" Subject: MtMan-List: Recipe Date: 23 May 1998 07:08:33 PDT Hi; I am new at this,I hope I am doing this right? I am looking for any = recipes on Pemmican. Thanks Little Larry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ThisOldFox Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Poison Ivy Date: 23 May 1998 14:42:02 EDT Mary asks: > I am looking for information on Poison Ivy. Fwd: POISON IVY Prevention & Treatment It's the world's most common allergy, affecting nearly half of all Americans. Each year, about 50 million get a reaction from poison ivy, sumac and oak--including many people who aren't allergic to anything else. The wicked itch and bothersome rash are the result of urushiol oil, a potent toxin. Get as little as one-billionth of a gram on your skin and you might be scratching yourself silly. Yet a lot more than that billionth of a gram is released when the plant is disturbed through direct contact with its stem, leaves or roots. But here's how to prevent and treat poison plant reactions: PREVENTION Dose yourself with deodorant There are effective commercial products that can help keep the urushiol oil from taking hold of your skin. But in a pinch, try what members of the U.S. Forestry Service have done before venturing into nature: Spray some deodorant on exposed areas like arms and legs. The active ingredient in deodorants, aluminum chlorohydrate, can prevent urishiol from irritating the skin, and can be applied if you might come in contact with poison ivy. Just be careful not to spray any on your face. Give yourself, clothing and tools a good wash--quickly First the bad news: Since urushiol oil can remain potent for up to five years, you can get a reaction from touching tools or clothing that were used to dig up poison ivy years earlier. My son got a bad case requiring shots in the middle of January. He caught if from the residue that was still on the sleeping bag which he had used at summer camp in July. The good news: If you wash yourself and those items in soapy water within 15 minutes of contact, you can help avoid the rash. We always carried a couple of bars of Fels Naptha soap and made everyone wash down with it as soon as was feasibly possible after exposure. Calmine lotion is effective in very light cases. Severe cases may require shots. You can also get it internally in the mouth, throat, and other mucous membrane areas. You should never burn poison ivy, nor breath the fumes from it. It can get into the lungs with terminal consequences. I had it internally as a youth, requiring both shots and hospitalization. I don't know if an immunity can be built up, but it affects me only mildly today. Here's a URL if you are interested. http://www.intelihealth.com Dave Kanger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mountain name Date: 23 May 1998 17:21:31 EDT seems maybe some folks have gotten a bit too serious about this thread. we try and have some fun here, too. the names i been hearin all these years are 'camp names', like people have been gettin' for screwin' up for centuries, even in summer camps, day camps, school teams, etc. its all part of the fun folks. PJ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bamboo Date: 23 May 1998 17:23:24 EDT I'm looking for any confirmation that Bamboo might have been here prior to 1840. If anybody knows of any sources, please pass the info on. Thanks. PJ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Poison Ivy Date: 23 May 1998 17:37:23 EDT ....'bout the best dern thing i ever see'd for BOTH them pesky 'skeeters and ivy itchin' is a new fangled version of a old fangled product called 'skin so soft' from avon. try it, you'll like it. no scratchin' 'n itchin' and your skin'll be softer and you'll smell a whole lot better, too. (and i ain't no avon salesman, neither) PJ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bamboo Date: 23 May 1998 20:23:09 -0400 in some of the writings about danial Boon, and also in the writings of lewis and clark cane thickets are refered to several times. cane and bamboo are similar only hard cane is smaller. many fine fly rods were made in the early 1800 from split bamboo or cane- most good bamboo was of the imported variy. suggest you go to the library and do some research on split bamboo fly rods and you will easily take it back over 200 hundred years. I Have several old powder horns that uses pins made from cane to hold the wooden plugs in place. the cane will not shrink or rot so is very good to use for small dia pins. when I build powder horns I use bamboo kabob sticks and glue them in place. Kabob sticks are about .0105 dia and I use a #40 drill and drive them in place with a little elmers glue and cut off flush with the horn with a sharp knife. I found out about the cane pins by accident when I broke a old horn plug, and have been using them ever since. they also take a good finish with wax and compound. I have a Horn that belonged to Danial Boon and it has wooden pins in it and it looks like it is also pinned with bamboo or cane by the grane of the material. cane or bamboo grows wild in southern arkansas, kentuckey and many southern states, the seminole indians used cane as fish traps as did the cree, and other southeastern tribes. The southeastern indians also made baskets from split cane and there are a few in smithsonian and other indian museums that show their everday impliments. I have seen several cane baskets made by cherokee that date back to the late 1800 in museums. cane was also used for pipe stems in clay pipes, and in corncob pipes you might look also in this area. hope I have given you a place to start-- I do not know specific books or pages I can point you to but the above uses will dictate a track to follow to document usage--It will be hard cane not sugar cane and not bamboo. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Sat, 23 May 1998 17:23:24 EDT RR1LA writes: >I'm looking for any confirmation that Bamboo might have been here >prior to >1840. If anybody knows of any sources, please pass the info on. >Thanks. PJ > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Kurt Westenbarger" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Poison Ivy Date: 23 May 1998 18:27:20 -0700 Yea, well, I suppose. Here in Yellerstone country we got over 100 different species a skeeter (not much ivy though) and skin so soft don't work fer all of 'em. I tried it. Don't really recommend it for up here anyways - it smells sweet ha see, and that's exactly what ol' momma Griz be smellin' fer. So give skin so soft a try if you want - it might just work on the bugs you got where your at, but think twice if a REALLY big furry bug with big teeth and claw lives nearby. Kurt RR1LA wrote: > ....'bout the best dern thing i ever see'd for BOTH them pesky 'skeeters and > ivy itchin' is a new fangled version of a old fangled product called 'skin so > soft' from avon. try it, you'll like it. no scratchin' 'n itchin' and your > skin'll be softer and you'll smell a whole lot better, too. (and i ain't no > avon salesman, neither) PJ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Mullen Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mountain name Date: 23 May 1998 20:59:17 +0000 P.J. Sorry to have taken the thread too seriously. I was under the assumption that this was a history discussion list, not a buckskinner forum. Next time I will try and stay within the parameters of comtemporary buckskinning mores. It terms of it being fun, I personally find an intelligent discussion of history as being one heck of a good time. Unfortunately, seems many people would rather discuss opinion, with no substantiation in historical documentation, as opposed to fact. YMHOS, David Mullen RR1LA wrote: > > seems maybe some folks have gotten a bit too serious about this thread. we > try and have some fun here, too. the names i been hearin all these years are > 'camp names', like people have been gettin' for screwin' up for centuries, > even in summer camps, day camps, school teams, etc. its all part of the fun > folks. PJ -- David Mullen 202 Mesa Verde Jemez Springs, NM 87025 505.829.3212 email:dmullen@jemez.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry Behm Subject: MtMan-List: Smoke Date: 23 May 1998 23:35:10 -0400 There was a thread a few days ago about prairie fires and smoke, this is= from a slightly later period but I think you'll find it interesting. March 18, 1852--- Easterly course. Left the Rio Gila some days ago. = Passed Copper mines. No shoes or boots to be had. Again on the Rio Gran= de and glad to see it. Today the grass was as high as our heads and accidently it got on fire. Came rushing on at a tremendous rate. We had= merely time to save ourselves by running to the sandy beach of the river.= = All our provisions, saddles, arms, ammunition, and camp equipage were destroyed. It was an exciting time. 300 guns and several pistols, lying= promiscously on the ground, discharged their deadly contents in all directions. No accidents, however, happened. Bad as an Indian fight. T= he Major didn't seem to enjoy it. March 25, 1852 --- Arrived on the 19th once more at Valverde. We were without arms, clothes, ammunition, or provisions when we entered Fort Conrad. Drew a new supply from the Quarter Master. Now staying in camp,= getting rested from our tiresome expedition. Nothing to do. from FORTS & FORAYS A Dragoon in New Mexico, 1850 - 1856 by James A. Bennett Padre Rolf ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Terry Behm Subject: MtMan-List: Mountain Name Date: 23 May 1998 23:35:12 -0400 Hi Jim and David, I agree with everything you say regarding "mountain names" my main point= in responding to Gary was to attempt to get the point across that one doe= s not just "think up" a name for themself. A name is something that your friends bestow upon you (for better or worse). Not all folks have names nor do you NEED a name to participate, BUT if you somehow get a name, enj= oy it and the folks that gave it to you. There's a club in my area that asks for and goes by "medicine names" I have a much bigger problem with this thought process. Any way, if there was a Squire and a Judge in the last century, I figger there can be a Padre in this century ;~). Padre Rolf Terry Behm, formerly AMM #1143 P.S. yes Taos Pard it really is me! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mountain name Date: 24 May 1998 00:49:57 EDT In a message dated 98-05-23 22:58:27 EDT, you write: << Sorry to have taken the thread too seriously. I was under the assumption that this was a history discussion list, not a buckskinner forum. Next time I will try and stay within the parameters of comtemporary buckskinning mores. It terms of it being fun, I personally find an intelligent discussion of history as being one heck of a good time. Unfortunately, seems many people would rather discuss opinion, with no substantiation in historical documentation, as opposed to fact. >> Nope, I'm not gonna do it! .................................. Longshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Poison Ivy Date: 23 May 1998 16:55:34 -0500 At 02:42 PM 5/23/98 -0400, This Old Fox wrote: >The active ingredient in >deodorants, >aluminum chlorohydrate, can prevent urishiol from >irritating the skin, Aluminum Chlorohydrate is the active ingredient in Anti-perspirant not deodorant. A particularly silly modern idea, except perhaps as Anti-poison ivy. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer kramer@kramerize.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: RR1LA Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Poison Ivy Date: 24 May 1998 01:52:58 EDT kurt, thanks for that advise about the big furry ones. never thought of that aspect, but won't soon forget it. PJ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: kat Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Skeeters Date: 24 May 1998 07:02:24 -0400 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD86E3.614D5C80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The best protection against skeeters is to take Vitamin B complex. The = Vitamin B makes you smell/taste funny to skeeters, and some other kinds = of bugs. Start taking it early in the year, and keep up till frost. Even = if you do get bit, they don't swell and itch as badly. 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It grows in shaded, cool, areas and cannot take the sun at all. The stems are very succulent. I have used the stems of the plant soon after being in poison ivy. (within 20 - 30 minutes) Just crush the stems of the plant and rub all over the affected area. Don't know how it works, but it works for my son & I. The fluid in the stems of the plant must neutralise the oils of the ivy before it has a chance to do it's worst. In my experience it will not work if used after the onset of poison Ivy. I have spoken with some rendezvouers who said they had frozen the fluid of the plant and used it to treat the affected area after they had poison ivy. Never tried it so cannot expand on this. As in the use of any plants, it is up to the user to do his / her own research before using it in any way. In the plant world (just like modern medication) what works for one may not work for another. And what works for one may cause a reaction to another. THIS IS ONLY TO INFORM THE READERS OF WHAT WORKED FOR SOME PEOPLE I KNOW AND MYSELF. IT IS UP TO YOU TO DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH BEFORE USING THIS AND THEN AT YOUR OWN RISK. Cliff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Joe Allen Jr Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Poison Ivy Date: 24 May 1998 09:34:47 -0500 Cliff wrote: > > I am looking for information on Poison Ivy. > mary > > ---------- > > Mary, > > Here in the East there is a plant called "touch me not" or "jewlweed". > It grows in shaded, cool, areas and cannot take the sun at all. The stems > are very succulent. I have used the stems of the plant soon after being in > poison ivy. (within 20 - 30 minutes) Just crush the stems of the plant and > rub all over the affected area............ just and extra note on the jewlweed, if you know you are going to be around/in the poison ivy, rub it on your exposed skin BEFORE getting into it and it will prevent reaction. Been there already. Joe #1692 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gail Carbiener" Subject: MtMan-List: tobacco... Date: 24 May 1998 09:50:11 -0700 I have read that the mountain men used kinnikinnick, which I believe is a low ground cover type of manzanita, as a mixture with tobacco. How did they prepare the kinnikinnick, did they use the leaves, green or dried. Any idea what the proportion was? And was it always used in pipes or did the mountain men roll their own in paper or leaves. Gail ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Traphand Subject: MtMan-List: museum of fur trade Date: 24 May 1998 22:15:51 EDT Charles E. Hanson passed away the first part of the this year.He will be missed by all how know him. Museum of fur trade will not be the same without him. traphand ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kirsten Smith and Tania Dopler Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian Face Paint Date: 24 May 1998 23:19:37 -0400 Just for the information of some those who would disagree, the First Nations of this continent were NOT defeated! We were certainly tested with the white man's lies, false promises, attempts to wipe us out or assimilate us out of existance. In spite of a concerted effort to render us an extinct race, we have survived for 500 years. We did not ask to be put on reservations or to be subject to the "generosity" of the white man's government. We did not ask to be considered second class citizens no matter what we did or how much we may have "measured up" to the white standard. Most of us do not wish to be repaid for the sins of the past... we simply want an acknowledgement of what was done and to reclaim our dignity and culture for future generations. Perhaps the AIM is/was not the perfect political movement but then, what political movement is? To slag a movment or a people in the manner displayed in Joe's opinon about AIM and Indians in general serves no pupose but to vent racist opinions and demean all who are touched by them. Cherokee and Irish PROUD! Hawk Dancing ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: KP MTN MAN Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian Face Paint Date: 24 May 1998 23:35:54 EDT Thank you. I could not have said anything about this subject with any more eloquence than you have already displayed. I also come from Cherokee and Irish bloodlines, and I am glad to know that there are other "breeds" that feel the way I do. Your brother in sprirt. Kevin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian Face Paint (move your comments to a Date: 24 May 1998 23:53:37 -0400 KRISTENE AND JOE: THIS CHAT SESSION IS NOT A POLITICAL RACIAL NOR AREA TO VENT YOUR POLITICAL OR RELIGIOUS OPINION. SUGGEST YOU TAKE THIS TYPE OF COMMUNICATION TO A OFFLINE BASIS WHERE YOU CAN BE ONE ON ONE WITH THE PERSON YOU DISAGREE WITH. THERE IS ALSO CHAT SESSIONS WHERE YOU WILL BE WELCOME IN IF YOU WISH TO PUBLISH YOUR POLITICAL OR ETHNICALLY VIEWS AND EXPOUND ON YOUR GOD GIVEN RIGHT OF FREE SPEECH AND BELIEF. THIS CHAT SESSION IS PRIMARILY FOR HISTORICAL RESEARCH AND DOCUMENTATION OF THE FUR TRADE PERIOD AND THE RECREATION OF PERIOD CORRECT COSTUMES MATERIALS AND LIFESTYLES. the person who you are directing your message to may have offended you if they did then please correct the matter in a offline "one on one basis" and not on this chat session I receive enough extraneous material as it is and do not need to read your type of input. If you think i am in error please contact me at the following and I have included my e-mail address. I BELIEVE ALL PARTIES OWE THE CHAT SESSION AN APOLOGY. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 e-mail: hawksnest4@juno.com On Sun, 24 May 98 23:19:37 -0400 Kirsten Smith and Tania Dopler writes: >Just for the information of some those who would disagree, the First >Nations of this continent were NOT defeated! We were certainly tested > >with the white man's lies, false promises, attempts to wipe us out or >assimilate us out of existance. In spite of a concerted effort to >render >us an extinct race, we have survived for 500 years. We did not ask to >be >put on reservations or to be subject to the "generosity" of the white >man's government. We did not ask to be considered second class >citizens >no matter what we did or how much we may have "measured up" to the >white >standard. Most of us do not wish to be repaid for the sins of the >past... we simply want an acknowledgement of what was done and to >reclaim >our dignity and culture for future generations. Perhaps the AIM >is/was >not the perfect political movement but then, what political movement >is? >To slag a movment or a people in the manner displayed in Joe's opinon >about AIM and Indians in general serves no pupose but to vent racist >opinions and demean all who are touched by them. > > >Cherokee and Irish PROUD! >Hawk Dancing > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian Face Paint Date: 25 May 1998 00:08:42 -0400 i THANK YOU NEED TO TAKE YOUR HERITAGE LINES OFFLINE ON A ONE ON ONE BASIS AND NOT ON THE CHAT. i SUBMITTED A PREVIOUS MESSAGE ON THE SAME LINE. IF YOU HAVE A COMMENT OR HISTORICAL DOCUMENTATION IN REFERENCE TO INDIAN FACEPAINT PLEASE FEEL FREE TO INCLUDE YOUR COMMENT OTHERWISE PLEASE TAKE DIRECT CONCURANCE ON A OFFLINE BASIS TO THE PEOPLE YOU WISH TO DIRECT IT TO. in reference to facepaint. i was at "Barns and Nobel" book store today and in their native american area noted at least 6 books that gave good reference to facepaint suggest the person that is seeking the original input take a trip to the bookstore and brows and drink a couple of cups of starbuck and take note of the over 200 books that are available in the native american area. I myself bought 2 books there that were about one of my favorite subject "the ancient ones" the anasaza. prices range from$5.00 to $65.00 for the books that they had on hand. one little girl was there with note cards looking for information for a research paper on indians in the florida area. there were at least 10 books in this area. to include one good one on the indian wars in florida. there are also many good native american books that are now out of print but there is a good website that has many of these books available suggest you look in this area to get a price range of reference materials. the web site location is HTTP://www.interloc.com "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Sun, 24 May 1998 23:35:54 EDT KP MTN MAN writes: >Thank you. I could not have said anything about this subject with any >more >eloquence than you have already displayed. I also come from Cherokee >and >Irish bloodlines, and I am glad to know that there are other "breeds" >that >feel the way I do. > >Your brother in sprirt. > >Kevin > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: museum of fur trade Date: 25 May 1998 00:17:53 -0400 let us hope the research and documentation that he provided will be continued and that the museum will still be there and not broken down and sold in a piece meal manner to individual collectors or to a large museum that will not display the many original articles of the fur trade period. Charles Hanson was a very special person and was always willing to talk on the phone and give information to interested people who were interested in the fur trade and the american mounten men of the past. I have several books that he authored and they are a treasure in my reference library. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Sun, 24 May 1998 22:15:51 EDT Traphand writes: > Charles E. Hanson passed away the first part of the this year.He >will be >missed by all how know him. Museum of fur trade will not be the same >without >him. > traphand > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Branson" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian Face Paint Date: 24 May 1998 23:04:31 -0500 Couldn't have said it better myself. I have been proud to be a part of the Southern Tribe through my wife's full blooded heritage for 18 of the finest years of my life. No one in her family ever asked a white man for anything at all except to be left alone. Considering all of the white made "indian art " in Mr. Brandl's business that he sells for home decorating I actually think his remarks are quite hurtful and completly uncalled for. Just another of the many in this hobby I have written off of my list of people I want to spend time with. Michael Branson -----Original Message----- >Just for the information of some those who would disagree, the First >Nations of this continent were NOT defeated! We were certainly tested >with the white man's lies, false promises, attempts to wipe us out or >assimilate us out of existance. In spite of a concerted effort to render >us an extinct race, we have survived for 500 years. We did not ask to be >put on reservations or to be subject to the "generosity" of the white >man's government. We did not ask to be considered second class citizens >no matter what we did or how much we may have "measured up" to the white >standard. Most of us do not wish to be repaid for the sins of the >past... we simply want an acknowledgement of what was done and to reclaim >our dignity and culture for future generations. Perhaps the AIM is/was >not the perfect political movement but then, what political movement is? >To slag a movment or a people in the manner displayed in Joe's opinon >about AIM and Indians in general serves no pupose but to vent racist >opinions and demean all who are touched by them. > > >Cherokee and Irish PROUD! >Hawk Dancing > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "P. Amschler" Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Indian Face Paint Date: 25 May 1998 00:13:55 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. You need a MIME compliant mail reader to completely decode it. --=_-=_-HAMEHLHDIPECDAAA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 1945 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Joe, I most of the time try to be nice about comments geared toward the Native American but on this one I must stand up and be counted. My wife is Hopi and while she is not a member of this list she does at times read a lot of the posts. WE both were VERY upset at your comment about the Native American and AIM. We have lived on the Res. and have experenced the Res way of life. YOU are wrong! It is not easy to get a job when up until the late 60's early 70's school ment being taken away from your family and forced to learn not with compasion but fear. Next AIM was and is a very important part of the Native Movement. Why do you call it a joke? Do you understand that the whites have done more to wipe out the native than help? Point in hand Partition of the Hopi and Deni' lands ment that if you broke a window in your home you could not fix it! Not even a piece of plywood could be used. This was in the partition lands and it went on for almost 20 years. This was NOT an Indian idea or law but the white man. As for work the Native American is still one of the least hireable persons around the reservation. On one res because of lack of work the drug and booze problem is around 80% where do the indians get their stull the white man. Joe when you make comments like you did please try and be aware that there are alot of other people who read these posts. Why do you want to fan the fires of hate and lies when you can be a human as we Native Americans call the tribes instead of just a white man? Blacks, irish, spic's, wapp's what ever title you want to put on people we are all human I hope. I am NOT PC I hate what the government has done to the people of this land but what can we do to change it be human. The whiutes have punished the Indian far to long now it is time to mend the wounds. Paul Amschler --- amschlers@mailcity.com Get your FREE, private e-mail account at http://www.mailcity.com --=_-=_-HAMEHLHDIPECDAAA Precedence: bulk Mime-Version: 1.0 Received: from [204.227.201.149] by Mailhost.wyoming.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 601-42080U15000L1500S0) with SMTP id AAA724 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 21:20:37 -0600 Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com Message-Id: <19980523032034805.AAA724@[204.227.201.149]> X-Sender: jbrandl@mailhost.wyoming.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 867 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom, The AIM movement is a joke. I am so tired of hearing the BS about the chip on Indian's shoulders and how the whites should repay them forever. They should realize that if every defeated race got what they did, the world would be one big welfare thing. I have many older Indian friends and relatives and most believe the reservation thing is a BAD thing. Move on and get a job. Ask the jews, the irish, the blacks. It is just a total waste of goverment money to fund stupid projects. Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Write for custom tanning prices We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and hair on robes Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka --=_-=_-HAMEHLHDIPECDAAA-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "P. Amschler" Subject: Re: Re: MtMan-List: Bamboo Date: 25 May 1998 00:29:33 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. You need a MIME compliant mail reader to completely decode it. --=_-=_-LKOHJOCJCNFCDAAA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 681 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One other thing about bamboo the southern california indians in the Santa Monica Bay also used cane/bamboo for all kinds of differnt thing from spears to arrows. If you ever get a chance to visit the Southwest Indian Muesem you will see many exibits that show the use of this product as far back as 1200's. Bamboo when fired make a very stiff and hard weapon to be use in many ways. As stated before fish traps, game snares etc. so thats my two cents. Once again if you can get to the muesem do so it is very good source of later indian wares out side of th e plains indians, --- amschlers@mailcity.com Get your FREE, private e-mail account at http://www.mailcity.com --=_-=_-LKOHJOCJCNFCDAAA References: Precedence: bulk Received: (from hawknest4@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id UaI20700; Sat, 23 May 1998 20:18:39 EDT Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 16-18,24-25,27-28,32-46 X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 Message-Id: <19980523.202355.7334.3.hawknest4@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 2551 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit in some of the writings about danial Boon, and also in the writings of lewis and clark cane thickets are refered to several times. cane and bamboo are similar only hard cane is smaller. many fine fly rods were made in the early 1800 from split bamboo or cane- most good bamboo was of the imported variy. suggest you go to the library and do some research on split bamboo fly rods and you will easily take it back over 200 hundred years. I Have several old powder horns that uses pins made from cane to hold the wooden plugs in place. the cane will not shrink or rot so is very good to use for small dia pins. when I build powder horns I use bamboo kabob sticks and glue them in place. Kabob sticks are about .0105 dia and I use a #40 drill and drive them in place with a little elmers glue and cut off flush with the horn with a sharp knife. I found out about the cane pins by accident when I broke a old horn plug, and have been using them ever since. they also take a good finish with wax and compound. I have a Horn that belonged to Danial Boon and it has wooden pins in it and it looks like it is also pinned with bamboo or cane by the grane of the material. cane or bamboo grows wild in southern arkansas, kentuckey and many southern states, the seminole indians used cane as fish traps as did the cree, and other southeastern tribes. The southeastern indians also made baskets from split cane and there are a few in smithsonian and other indian museums that show their everday impliments. I have seen several cane baskets made by cherokee that date back to the late 1800 in museums. cane was also used for pipe stems in clay pipes, and in corncob pipes you might look also in this area. hope I have given you a place to start-- I do not know specific books or pages I can point you to but the above uses will dictate a track to follow to document usage--It will be hard cane not sugar cane and not bamboo. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Sat, 23 May 1998 17:23:24 EDT RR1LA writes: >I'm looking for any confirmation that Bamboo might have been here >prior to >1840. If anybody knows of any sources, please pass the info on. >Thanks. PJ > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] --=_-=_-LKOHJOCJCNFCDAAA-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bill Murphy Subject: MtMan-List: Digest Date: 25 May 1998 04:43:50 -0500 Forgive the memory lapse, can someone advise if there is a "digest mode" and if so, how to switch to it. Thanks, Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian Face Paint (move your comments to a offline basis) Date: 25 May 1998 09:24:01 -0600 Hawk, Your are correct, My apologies, Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Write for custom tanning prices We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and hair on robes Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: MtMan-List: War paint Date: 25 May 1998 09:35:54 -0600 I am sorry for having offended many of you. I hate racism!. When any culture determines that it has first and only rights to creating objects from that culture, I disagree. I have sounded like I totally dislike American Indians. This is very untrue. As for the distaste for AIM, Russell Means put a sour taste in my mouth when working with him on a film. I totally respect the different cultures. It is sad that so many have taken history, rewrote it to fit their religion beliefs and sold it to the the highest bidder. I agreed that this is not the place for personal opinons but for historical information sharing. Again, my apoligies for offending you. Sincerely Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Write for custom tanning prices We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and hair on robes Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JarhedMatt Subject: MtMan-List: Primitive archery Date: 25 May 1998 13:32:21 EDT Hi, List. I know that this is way "off list", so I'll only ask once. Can anyone recommend a decent primitive archery mailing list/www site? Thanks, Matt W ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tedhart@juno.com (Ted A Hart) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: war paint Date: 25 May 1998 13:46:55 EDT True but I was raised not to ask questions unless necessary. If info is given to me I gratefully accept it but to ask is to be impolite....I grew up real Southern kind of way still am that way alot of times :) But am the least racist person you'll ever meet probably because deafness (I use American Sign Language) runs all racial barriers. One last question I have to ask before I sign off. Does anyone actually still use American Indian Sign Language nowdays? Ted _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: EmmaPeel2 Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: smoke (serious question) Date: 25 May 1998 15:13:52 EDT In a message dated 98-05-19 15:57:10 EDT, you write: << Hello the list, I asked a question and I suppose I should have worded it differently since I have gotten off line remarks that are not relevant to the question. Question was "wonder how they coped with things like this in the 1800's ." I had hoped for serious answers in the same vein as the one's on dropsy or on medicine in the same time period. I am doing fine in my un-airconditioned vehicle and work place, thank you. YMOS Ken YellowFeather >> The best way to understand how a group "coped" and adapted to environmental -- or any other trauma (medical, psychological) required an understanding of their beliefs in context. We all know people who have endured great adversity and never cracked, while others shattered at the simplest of annoyances. As a medical anthropologist who studies the impact of stressors on the body, I would say that this group was particularly independent and RESOURCEFUL, which are key components in being able to adapt. Odds are also good, that they were also somewhat fit and strong (though I can only conject upon things like intestinal parasites, which would severely weaken a person) Although I have not had the opportunity to examine MM remains, I am quite certain they would have accepted and adapted to environmental emergencies quite readily. They would just do what they had to do -- perhaps a wet rag around the nostrils and mouth. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MIA3WOLVES Subject: Re: MtMan-List: war paint Date: 25 May 1998 16:14:28 EDT Yes! It is still taught to many deaf children as their primary means of communication. It is, also, used with non verbal autistic children to some extent. Red Hawk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "kd4rfa" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive archery Date: 25 May 1998 17:50:07 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BD8805.8EAC1C20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I can recommend the following: http://www.pioneerpc.com/primitivearcher Your humble servant "Empty-Poke" -----Original Message----- > Hi, List. > > I know that this is way "off list", so I'll only ask once. Can anyone >recommend a decent primitive archery mailing list/www site? > > Thanks, > > Matt W > ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BD8805.8EAC1C20 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; name="Philip Alexander.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Philip Alexander.vcf" BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Alexander;Philip;;; FN:Philip Alexander ORG:Swift Denim; TITLE: REV:19980525T215007Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BD8805.8EAC1C20-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Information Requested on Davenport Rifle Date: 25 May 1998 15:53:59 -0700 (PDT) I realize this is not our time period (so let me appologize if it is offensive to anyone) but my sister in Florida asked me this question the other day and it is the fastest and easiest way I could think of to get the information. She has a friend who wants to buy a Davenport Rifle and get as much information on the manufacturer as he can. It was manufactured during the Civil War and I would imagine it was for the North, since it was made in either Rhode Island or Connecticut. Apparently, the person who wants this information is related to the original owner of the Davenport Arms Company. Since my interest is in the American Fur Trade, I have never heard of this manufacturer and was wondering if anyone had ever heard of it and could provide some information or knew of one for sale. If you want to respond off line, my E-Mail address is: zaz@pacificnet.net I would appreciate any help. Thanks again, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tedhart@juno.com (Ted A Hart) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: war paint Date: 25 May 1998 22:24:39 EDT Really? Please correspond with me privately via e-mail as some of my discussion points don't pertain to this board. Ted _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tedhart@juno.com (Ted A Hart) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: war paint Date: 25 May 1998 22:24:39 EDT Forgot to add that my e-mail address is TedHart@juno.com Ted On Mon, 25 May 1998 16:14:28 EDT MIA3WOLVES writes: >Yes! It is still taught to many deaf children as their primary means >of >communication. It is, also, used with non verbal autistic children to >some >extent. > >Red Hawk _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Branson" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: war paint Date: 25 May 1998 21:33:26 -0500 I would answer yes, to that question. I never used it at any buckskinners Rendezvous when I used to attend them. But I still use it at places such as Bent's Old Fort and Ft. Laramie. I can't say I'm as good as I would like to be but it is hard to learn it when you don't have a daily need for it. M. Branson -----Original Message----- >True but I was raised not to ask questions unless necessary. If info is >given to me I gratefully accept it but to ask is to be impolite....I grew >up real Southern kind of way still am that way alot of times :) But am >the least racist person you'll ever meet probably because deafness (I use >American Sign Language) runs all racial barriers. > >One last question I have to ask before I sign off. Does anyone actually >still use American Indian Sign Language nowdays? > >Ted > >_____________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com >Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: EmmaPeel2 Subject: MtMan-List: Just tossing out an idea, would like some feedback Date: 26 May 1998 01:30:25 EDT Have spent the past 11 months researching the St. Vrain family, and ran into a few Bent, Dubreil, and Derbigny descendants along the way. The idea was casually dropped about having a reuinion for the descendants of those who worked at and trapped for Bents FOrt. Many still live in the area. Just out of curiosity - I wonder how this could be done, and if anyone would seriously be interested. Since the MM are what MADE Bents Fort, it would be unthinkable not to have a rendezvous of sorts. Any suggestions? Or is this a ridiculous idea? Thoughts welcome. I know the St. Vrain descendants would be enthusiastic, the trick is, how to convince the NPS? Thanks for any advice or comment - Emma ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jim Colburn Subject: Re: MtMan-List: war paint Date: 26 May 1998 00:21:57 -0500 Washtahay- At 04:14 PM 5/25/98 EDT, you wrote: >Yes! It is still taught to many deaf children as their primary means of >communication. It is, also, used with non verbal autistic children to some >extent. Um, I hink you mean American Sign Language is taught to deaf children as thier primary means of communication. Based on my experience with non-verbal autistic children, again it is either ASL, or SEE, or a localized or individual specific signing system, usually supplemented ASAP by picture cards (at least if I have any input into writing the programs!) Sorry for the off topic post. LongWalker c. du B. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: On and off topic Date: 26 May 1998 01:28:23 -0500 Censorship is an ugly disease of the mind. In my most recent mail download two questions were raised and the authors pleaded forgiveness for going off topic. Why are they so gun shy? Both questions were completely ON TOPIC and entirely appropriate to the list discussion. I also find no problem with seeking the broad expertise on this list to answer occasional questions clearly outside our period of interest; like one concerning a Civil War period gun. These things should not require apology. Primitive Archery is a valid topic for discussion. More valid than anti-perspirant used as anti-poison ivy. As valid as any discussion of clothing, knives and guns. The original mountain men learned from the native inhabitants the ways of the mountains and plains, some intermarried and lived with various tribes. A bow may not shoot as far, but, it can shoot a lot faster than a flintlock. To think it doesn't belong here is just plain wrong. I can believe at least a few of the mountain men carried a bow and arrows around with them long before I can believe they hauled a teepee, unless they also packed a squaw. Indian Sign Language, American Sign Language, Any Sign Language. I have been corrected before on this but, I still maintain there are many similarities in the various versions of "sign". What I have come to believe is once you learn any one form, it becomes possible to work out communication with any other form; at least easier than between different spoken languages. One of the requirements to advance to the Hiveranno degree in AMM is to learn Indian Sign Language. The topic is appropriate. What we need to pay closer attention to is our subject headings. If we change the topic we should change the subject heading; i.e., neither of the above have anything to do with war paint. My rant: This forum should not be used as a medium for personal business advertising. I try to remember to change my "standard" sig file to the one I use for the list, before I hit the send button. Sometimes I forget so occasionally my "ad" is tagged onto the bottom of my messages. Some seem to think their business is more important than mine or any other and never fail to advertise with every message. I find this offensive. My business is at least as correct to the period as any other and I would appreciate a little effort to make this list as non-commercial as possible. The opinions expressed above are entirely my own. John... Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. john ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MIA3WOLVES Subject: Re: MtMan-List: war paint Date: 26 May 1998 06:41:32 EDT You are correct. I misread the original post as ASL. Red Hawk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: On and off topic Date: 26 May 1998 05:47:57 -0500 Yeah---what you said!! Lanney Ratcliff -----Original Message----- >Censorship is an ugly disease of the mind. > >In my most recent mail download two questions were raised and the authors >pleaded forgiveness for going off topic. Why are they so gun shy? > >Both questions were completely ON TOPIC and entirely appropriate to the list >discussion. I also find no problem with seeking the broad expertise on this >list to answer occasional questions clearly outside our period of interest; >like one concerning a Civil War period gun. These things should not require >apology. > >Primitive Archery is a valid topic for discussion. More valid than >anti-perspirant used as anti-poison ivy. As valid as any discussion of >clothing, knives and guns. > >The original mountain men learned from the native inhabitants the ways of the >mountains and plains, some intermarried and lived with various tribes. A bow >may not shoot as far, but, it can shoot a lot faster than a flintlock. To >think it doesn't belong here is just plain wrong. I can believe at least a >few >of the mountain men carried a bow and arrows around with them long before I >can >believe they hauled a teepee, unless they also packed a squaw. > >Indian Sign Language, American Sign Language, Any Sign Language. I have been >corrected before on this but, I still maintain there are many similarities in >the various versions of "sign". What I have come to believe is once you learn >any one form, it becomes possible to work out communication with any other >form; at least easier than between different spoken languages. > >One of the requirements to advance to the Hiveranno degree in AMM is to learn >Indian Sign Language. The topic is appropriate. > >What we need to pay closer attention to is our subject headings. If we change >the topic we should change the subject heading; i.e., neither of the above >have >anything to do with war paint. > >My rant: >This forum should not be used as a medium for personal business >advertising. I >try to remember to change my "standard" sig file to the one I use for the >list, >before I hit the send button. Sometimes I forget so occasionally my "ad" is >tagged onto the bottom of my messages. Some seem to think their business is >more important than mine or any other and never fail to advertise with every >message. I find this offensive. My business is at least as correct to the >period as any other and I would appreciate a little effort to make this >list as >non-commercial as possible. > >The opinions expressed above are entirely my own. > >John... > >Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. >john > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Just tossing out an idea, would like some feedback Date: 26 May 1998 13:02:27 EDT In a message dated 98-05-26 01:32:55 EDT, you write: << I know the St. Vrain descendants would be enthusiastic, the trick is, how to convince the NPS? Thanks for any advice or comment - Emma >> Was at Bent's Fort a couple years ago and had a discussion about whether or not they had any rendezvous there. The answer was a flat "NO". TThe people at the fort are apparantly of a mind set to say yes, but the Park Service apparantly will under NO circumstances allow a rendezvous on the grounds of the fort. Longshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Just tossing out an idea, would like ..some feed Date: 26 May 1998 14:33:57 +0000 Call Greg Holt or Carl Zimmerman or Craig Moore at the Fort and see what they require as far as your idea goes. Wouldn't hurt to ask-all they can do is say no or come up with so many NPS hoops that it would not be worth the trouble. But, at least these guys will try anyway. Don Keas EmmaPeel2 wrote: >Have spent the past 11 months researching the St. Vrain family, and ran into a >few Bent, Dubreil, and Derbigny descendants along the way. The idea was >casually dropped about having a reuinion for the descendants of those who >worked at and trapped for Bents FOrt. Many still live in the area. Just out >of curiosity - I wonder how this could be done, and if anyone would seriously >be interested. Since the MM are what MADE Bents Fort, it would be unthinkable >not to have a rendezvous of sorts. Any suggestions? Or is this a ridiculous >idea? Thoughts welcome. I know the St. Vrain descendants would be >enthusiastic, the trick is, how to convince the NPS? Thanks for any advice or >comment - Emma > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > >Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com > (SMTPD32-4.03) id A58F31C0290; Mon, 25 May 1998 23:39:27 MDT >Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.82 #1) > id 0yeCKx-0002w9-00; Mon, 25 May 1998 23:31:47 -0600 >Received: from (imo27.mx.aol.com) [198.81.17.71] > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) > id 0yeCKu-0002r9-00; Mon, 25 May 1998 23:31:44 -0600 >Received: from EmmaPeel2@aol.com > by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id IJFEa15145 > for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 01:30:25 -0400 (EDT) >From: EmmaPeel2 >Message-ID: <9994084b.356a5372@aol.com> >Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 01:30:25 EDT >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Subject: MtMan-List: Just tossing out an idea, would like some feedback >Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 >Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >X-UIDL: 891663511 >Status: U > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dennis Fisher Subject: MtMan-List: Indian vs. Europeans Date: 25 May 1998 20:16:45 -0700 I my humble opinion, there is to much talking and not enough listening going on in this subject. A bunch of my relatives (the Hochstetlers) were massacred by Indians on September 19th and 20th 1757. They were devotely religious and would not bear arms against the Indians even when their life were threatened. The Indians killed and scalped these unarmed farmers (men, women, and children). If I was one for holding a grudge, I guess I have a good a reason as anyone. But I'm not. What happened, happened and there is nothing any of us can do to change the past. Just visit the South, they still hold some very strong opinions on the Civil War down there. But we can do something about the future. This is a good opportunity to open up a dialogue and discuss some of these long held belief and feelings. Although it is pretty easy to know what a person "said" in an email message it is really difficult figure out what he "meant". There is no voice inflection, no body language, no facial expression, no nothing. Nothing except the words. So I would caution not to be to quick to take offense of what someone posts until you find out what he really was trying to say. I think most people on the list are sincere and are not trying to strart a flame war. The face paint thread was interesting and a valid topic for discussion. As a European, I'm interested in learning all I can about the Indian way of thinking and doing things. The more I learn the more I understand where they are coming from. So I ask those of Indian decent to have a little patience with me and help me to understand. One thing we seem to have in common is a distrust of the federal government. If the Indians feel they are the only ones that have been screwed by the government, have I got news for them. I would like to hear (from the Indian delegation on the list) some of the misconceptions that they feel the Europeans have about their culture. Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dennis Fisher Subject: MtMan-List: Bow and Arrows Date: 24 May 1998 21:42:33 -0700 Does anyone know how far back the bow and arrow goes here in North America? It would seems from the archaeological record of arrowheads that they must go back quite a ways but I don't recall ever seeing any dated info on bows that have been found in ancient burials. Would the points on atlatl (sp) darts be any different that those used on bow launched arrows? Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: j2hearts@juno.com (john c funk,jr) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Primitive archery Date: 26 May 1998 07:10:42 -0700 Matt, Do you subscribe to "Primitive Archer" mag.? John _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: j2hearts@juno.com (john c funk,jr) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Information Requested on Davenport Rifle Date: 26 May 1998 07:15:15 -0700 Jerry, There is a Davenport, Conn. I used to live there as a kid. John Funk _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Just tossing out an idea, would like some feedback Date: 26 May 1998 19:27:14 -0400 > > > Was at Bent's Fort a couple years ago and had a discussion about whether or > not they had any rendezvous there. That is strange...I remember some big events in the early fall at Bents Fort. What ever happened to those. They started around 1980. Linda Holley ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Glenn Darilek Subject: MtMan-List: Indian Sign Language Date: 26 May 1998 18:01:54 -0500 Ted A Hart asked if anyone still used American Indian Sign Language. A Lakota medicine man who attended one of the Fritztown Free Trappers rendezvous said he and the Lakota use some ISL in some of their ceremonies. Iron Burner ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Recipe Date: 26 May 1998 09:05:04 -0500 You wrote: Hi; I am new at this,I hope I am doing this right? I am looking for any recipes on Pemmican. Thanks Little Larry Little Larry of the Patuxents? Larry is that you? Your most humble servant, Scott Allen http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Poison Ivy Date: 26 May 1998 09:03:32 -0500 A good strong lye soap drys it up in no time flat. Your most humble servant, Scott Allen http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Poison Ivy Date: 26 May 1998 09:03:32 -0500 A good strong lye soap drys it up in no time flat. Your most humble servant, Scott Allen http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: LODGEPOLE Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Just tossing out an idea, would like some feedback Date: 26 May 1998 21:20:20 EDT In a message dated 98-05-26 20:16:56 EDT, you write: << > Was at Bent's Fort a couple years ago and had a discussion about whether or > not they had any rendezvous there. That is strange...I remember some big events in the early fall at Bents Fort. What ever happened to those. They started around 1980. Linda Holley >> Dunno Linda, just know what they told me when I was there. Longshot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Longtrail Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian Sign Language Date: 26 May 1998 19:08:02 -0700 >Ted A Hart asked if anyone still used American Indian Sign Language. > >A Lakota medicine man who attended one of the Fritztown Free Trappers >rendezvous said he and the Lakota use some ISL in some of their >ceremonies. > >Iron Burner Concerning Native American Sign Language. There is a group of people in the Portland area who, weekly, hold a meeting, and have for 10 + years, to learn the Native American Sign language. Some of the people are AMM while I believe, others are not. To attend a rendezvous with them is like being from another country as they often communicate via sigh language. NOT that they are conceided in their knowletdge. If you've taken time to learn then you will know what theyare saying, if not then, you might feel"left out".. I heard them discussing a time when some of them were visiting a location where there were many Native Americans, as my friends used the traditional sign language, the "elders" recognised what they were saying and were amazed to see the "old ways" used. Especially by Whites. So there are people who take the time and effort to learn the Native American sign language and use it at rendezvous as it would have been used during the Fur Trade Era by Native Americans. Longtrail ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tedhart@juno.com (Ted A Hart) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian Sign Language Date: 26 May 1998 21:56:20 EDT Hello Iron Burner...been a while since we last spoke :) I've lost my e-mail addresses yours and also a few others in particular...please e-mail me your e-mail addresses. Am putting them on paper this time around. Ted p.s. Iron Burner...we need to talk later and thanks for the info I'll ask more later on this. Wish I had attended the rendezvous! But having a dog that will go into a funk and refuse to eat for three days without me is an disadvantage espically if one doesn't have money to board the dog and the dog is a wonderfully trained dog. On Tue, 26 May 1998 18:01:54 -0500 Glenn Darilek writes: >Ted A Hart asked if anyone still used American Indian Sign Language. > >A Lakota medicine man who attended one of the Fritztown Free Trappers >rendezvous said he and the Lakota use some ISL in some of their >ceremonies. > >Iron Burner > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: seanbear Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mountain name Date: 26 May 1998 18:29:42 -0400 I was under the assumption that "camp names" were also given to the Mountain Men... and NO, I do not have documentation on that... just from reading numerous books... whether they were fictional or biographical, or what.. Regardless, it is fun to hear how some people got their "camp names". Correct me if I am wrong, but is not Buckskinnin synonomous with Mountain Man?? For those of you who are interested, I got my name "Seanbear" from my wife... Sean is my email handle, and Vicki thinks I am a "teddy bear"... so... she started calling me Seanbear... Fortunately, it was NOT from a goof at a Ronny... Yet..... Seanbear -----Original Message----- >P.J. > >Sorry to have taken the thread too seriously. I was under the assumption >that this was a history discussion list, not a buckskinner forum. Next >time I will try and stay within the parameters of comtemporary >buckskinning mores. > >It terms of it being fun, I personally find an intelligent discussion of >history as being one heck of a good time. Unfortunately, seems many >people would rather discuss opinion, with no substantiation in >historical documentation, as opposed to fact. > >YMHOS, > >David Mullen > >RR1LA wrote: >> >> seems maybe some folks have gotten a bit too serious about this thread. we >> try and have some fun here, too. the names i been hearin all these years are >> 'camp names', like people have been gettin' for screwin' up for centuries, >> even in summer camps, day camps, school teams, etc. its all part of the fun >> folks. PJ > >-- >David Mullen >202 Mesa Verde >Jemez Springs, NM 87025 >505.829.3212 >email:dmullen@jemez.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Information Requested on Davenport Rifle Date: 26 May 1998 23:08:21 -0400 Have been thru my books and other reference material and do not have anything on Davenport. Suggest you contact Lee Good At the Davis Museum in Clarimore oklahoma. he has a database with almost anything imaginable--they also have one of the best collections of muzzle loading rifles in the united states--I dont thank they have a web site yet but contact him and i am sure he can help. just call information and ask for the museum. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Mon, 25 May 1998 15:53:59 -0700 (PDT) zaslow writes: >I realize this is not our time period (so let me appologize if it is >offensive to anyone) but my sister in Florida asked me this question >the >other day and it is the fastest and easiest way I could think of to >get the >information. > >She has a friend who wants to buy a Davenport Rifle and get as much >information on the manufacturer as he can. It was manufactured during >the >Civil War and I would imagine it was for the North, since it was made >in >either Rhode Island or Connecticut. Apparently, the person who wants >this >information is related to the original owner of the Davenport Arms >Company. >Since my interest is in the American Fur Trade, I have never heard of >this >manufacturer and was wondering if anyone had ever heard of it and >could >provide some information or knew of one for sale. > >If you want to respond off line, my E-Mail address is: >zaz@pacificnet.net > >I would appreciate any help. > >Thanks again, > >Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 > > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Gary Bell Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian Sign Language Date: 26 May 1998 20:46:28 -0700 Longtrail, I live in the Portland OR area and would LOVE to find a sign language group to learn and practice with! I suspect that this topic will interest others on the list, and have replied there instead of offline. I have a bunch of Boy Scouts that would also be interested in learning of such an opportunity. If you would like to reply offline catch me at: micropt@gte.net otherwise, perhaps you might agree with me that there are some possibilities for other list subscribers to connect with this opportunity and you would be willing to post a means of connecting with this group online. On a related but separate topic I find myself wondering about list contributors who might be my neighbors, or who might be in some place I am going to visit; and I certainly recall reading a lot of traffic about who lives where. My question / challenge: Is there any way we can post our locations and means of contacting us on the list or the website, without violating the individual's needs to be private and safe from SPAM and other email varmints? This appeals to me as a new thread on our list, or perhaps Dean might already have solved the issue and I simply didn't figure it out yet! Night Heron (formerly Gary Bell, NoName and various other Mountain and put-down names) Longtrail wrote: > >Ted A Hart asked if anyone still used American Indian Sign Language. > > > >A Lakota medicine man who attended one of the Fritztown Free Trappers > >rendezvous said he and the Lakota use some ISL in some of their > >ceremonies. > > > >Iron Burner > > Concerning Native American Sign Language. There is a group of people in > the Portland area who, weekly, hold a meeting, and have for 10 + years, to > learn the Native American Sign language. Some of the people are AMM while > I believe, others are not. To attend a rendezvous with them is like being > from another country as they often communicate via sigh language. NOT that > they are conceided in their knowletdge. If you've taken time to learn then > you will know what theyare saying, if not then, you might feel"left out".. > I heard them discussing a time when some of them were visiting a location > where there were many Native Americans, as my friends used the traditional > sign language, the "elders" recognised what they were saying and were > amazed to see the "old ways" used. Especially by Whites. So there are > people who take the time and effort to learn the Native American sign > language and use it at rendezvous as it would have been used during the Fur > Trade Era by Native Americans. Longtrail ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Htorr Subject: MtMan-List: Face paint and Indian Sign Language Date: 27 May 1998 00:47:51 EDT There has been a lot of discussion lately on Indian Sign Language (ISL) and whether it is used any more. My experience with it has been as follows: I am a ceremonies team advisor for our local chapter in the Order of the Arrow. (An organization within the Boy Scouts of America). The Ceremony Team dresses in Indian Costuming while inducting new Scouts into the Order. Twice a year there is a competition where the teams are judged on how well they do their part. The first time is on the local Lodge level. The winner of this competition goes on to the Section Conclave, where they are judged with other Lodges. For our group, the Lodge level includes our Scout Council (Orange County Council); the Section Conclave includes the Lodges in the Southern portion of Southern California. There is also competition at the National level (NOAC) once every two years, but they do not judge the Ordeal Ceremony team there. One of the things the Scouts are judged by is their hand motions and how well their hand motions correspond to what is being said. I ran across Tomkins' book on Indian Sign at a NOAC and thought if the Scouts could say their parts in English and do the equivalent in Indian Sign, the judges should have no complaint about the hand motion corresponding to what is being said. The Scouts picked it up in a hurry, and our team took first place in the Lodge and Section competition for several years in a row. As a side benefit, the Scouts are all fairly fluent in ISL and can communicate with each other. This is particularly impressive when the others are observing the "bond of silence" that goes with a portion of the induction process. I have visited Indian Powwows in California, New Mexico, and South Dakota. In each of these I have made special inquiry as to anybody that knows ISL. The results are just about zero. The Indians keep the traditions of costuming, dance, handicrafts, etc. but ISL is just about gone. One can argue that the need for it has dissapeared. As a second language the Indians now use English or, in some cases, Spanish. The only Native Americans I have found who know it are one who was himself active with the Order of the Arrow and YMCA Indian Guides. I am suspicious if he learned it as a Native American or did he learn it from Scouting and Indian Guides. The other one I have met is in charge of a local museum in California. As for face paint --- since the Order of the Arrow has banned all face paint and wigs for their members, their use when being judged would automatically mean disqualification. Respectfully, Tom Orr ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Just tossing out an idea, ,would like some feedb Date: 26 May 1998 20:18:42 +0000 Yes, they used to have a voo in September at Bent's. Then they did some changes and one of them wqas no shooting. Thios from the big boys in DC. After the changes which were hard to swallow by most, the rendezvous was dropped. Now it is just living history events. DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS --- PROPRIETORS OF THE NADA TRADING COMPANY LODGEPOLE wrote: >In a message dated 98-05-26 20:16:56 EDT, you write: > ><< > Was at Bent's Fort a couple years ago and had a discussion about >whether or > > not they had any rendezvous there. > > That is strange...I remember some big events in the early fall at Bents Fort. > What ever happened to those. They started around 1980. > > Linda Holley >> > > > Dunno Linda, just know what they told me when I was there. > > Longshot > > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > >Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com > (SMTPD32-4.03) id A92EE80144; Tue, 26 May 1998 20:23:42 MDT >Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.82 #1) > id 0yeVNN-0007eA-00; Tue, 26 May 1998 19:51:33 -0600 >Received: from (imo13.mx.aol.com) [198.81.17.35] > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) > id 0yeUzN-0006EK-00; Tue, 26 May 1998 19:26:45 -0600 >Received: from LODGEPOLE@aol.com > by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id ICALa29777 > for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 21:20:20 +2000 (EDT) >From: LODGEPOLE >Message-ID: <670f9244.356b6a55@aol.com> >Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 21:20:20 EDT >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Just tossing out an idea, would like some feedback >Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 >Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >X-UIDL: 891663536 >Status: U > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Branson" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Just tossing out an idea, ,would like some feedb Date: 27 May 1998 09:14:27 -0500 The subject of Rendezvous at Bent's Old fort is quite a subject. I would like to add to Don and Phyllis message: The second Rendezvous held at the recreated Bent's Fort was held in the winter of 1977-78. I was there along with Many Hats from Iowa, and a now defunct buckskinning club from Denver. The temperature that New Years weekend was down around 10 below. The Denver club started a fire in the fort council room and burned the mantle piece on the front of the fireplace. Then there were summer Rendezvous held there up through the middle 80s. We got to do things in the fort in those days that we would never be allowed to do today. I have slept in several rooms throughout the fort it is truly a religious experience. I believe that St Vrain's room is haunted. By 1989, the fort had had several problems with excessive use of alcohol by participants, fighting, and one man chased his girl friend with a loaded pistol. One drunk fool fell off the ramparts one night into the plaza. etc. The gunpowder ban came about after the loaded pistol occurence. Gun powder is still used at other NPS sites?. Living history was slowly taking over from the buckskinning view as the direction for the fort to go. Winter Christmas celebrations were held there and my wife and I participated once. I portrayed Wm Bent and my wife got to play her Great Great Great Grandmother Owl Woman. It was great. Now-a-days I believe a buckskinners Rendezvous would not be allowed as the view of the NPS folks is that they want the participants to be as authentic as possible. They also don't want the liability problems associated with drunken buckskinners roaming the fort at night. As to the family Reunion? We held a Bent Family reunion at the fort in the summer of 1987, Most of the Bent family Native American descendants were there, close to 3000 people. A few of the white family descendants were also present. I was there because of my wife's connection to the family. Craig Moore was the person in charge of the Bent Family Reunion. It was a grand affair. We have great memories. We also got to see the location of Bent's New Fort farther east. It is in ruins but it would be worth rebuilding if the money could ever be obtained. I hope that helps some. Michael Branson -----Original Message----- >Yes, they used to have a voo in September at Bent's. Then they did some >changes and one of them wqas no shooting. Thios from the big boys in DC. >After the changes which were hard to swallow by most, the rendezvous was >dropped. Now it is just living history events. > >DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS --- PROPRIETORS OF THE NADA TRADING COMPANY > >LODGEPOLE wrote: >>In a message dated 98-05-26 20:16:56 EDT, you write: >> >><< > Was at Bent's Fort a couple years ago and had a discussion about >>whether or >> > not they had any rendezvous there. >> >> That is strange...I remember some big events in the early fall at Bents >Fort. >> What ever happened to those. They started around 1980. >> >> Linda Holley >> >> >> >> Dunno Linda, just know what they told me when I was there. >> >> Longshot >> >> >> >> >>RFC822 header >>----------------------------------- >> >>Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com >> (SMTPD32-4.03) id A92EE80144; Tue, 26 May 1998 20:23:42 MDT >>Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.82 #1) >> id 0yeVNN-0007eA-00; Tue, 26 May 1998 19:51:33 -0600 >>Received: from (imo13.mx.aol.com) [198.81.17.35] >> by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) >> id 0yeUzN-0006EK-00; Tue, 26 May 1998 19:26:45 -0600 >>Received: from LODGEPOLE@aol.com >> by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id ICALa29777 >> for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 21:20:20 +2000 >(EDT) >>From: LODGEPOLE >>Message-ID: <670f9244.356b6a55@aol.com> >>Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 21:20:20 EDT >>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>Mime-Version: 1.0 >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Just tossing out an idea, would like some >feedback >>Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >>Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >>X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 >>Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>Precedence: bulk >>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>X-UIDL: 891663536 >>Status: U >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "P. Amschler" Subject: MtMan-List: Men of The Cloth Date: 27 May 1998 08:44:16 -0700 I have seen a lot of differnt posts on everything from teflon patches to Indian sign. Now I have a question that may or may not draw the ere of a few people but it is one that I hope will cause some good lively posts. AND this has everything to do with the list. ok here we go Knowing that the church of Rome sent many missionaries to the Indians and in towns it was common to find at least one church, has any one ever seen a accounts of pastors (maybe as we know them today) going into the mountians to preach at vous? I know that once the white man moved into indian lands they gave the missionaries free run of the place to see if they could turn the savage to God hence to the white ways hence the destruction of the native life style and the tribes. But in studing the topic I have onle seen one time where preachers went to the Mountian Men. That being in 1800 on the French trading post. Paul Amschler --- amschlers@mailcity.com Get your FREE, private e-mail account at http://www.mailcity.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian Sign Language Date: 27 May 1998 09:21:55 -0700 Gary; I'm surprised you are not aware of the Powell Valley Long Rifles muzzle loading club in your area. They a meeting on tuesday evenings to practice ISL and the two main movers and pushers are Margret and George Pusant,(sic). Contact the Club at PVLR, PO Box 187, Fairview, OR. 97024. I can't give you a phone #, sorry. Georg and Margret are also active in the Columbia R. Party, NW Brigade, AMM. I'm sure they can be of help. Good luck, YMOS Capt. Lahti Clerk, Wilson Price Hunt Party. Gary Bell wrote: > Longtrail, > > I live in the Portland OR area and would LOVE to find a sign language group to > learn and practice with! > I suspect that this topic will interest others on the list, and have replied > there instead of offline. I have a bunch of Boy Scouts that would also be > interested in learning of such an opportunity. If you would like to reply > offline catch me at: micropt@gte.net otherwise, perhaps you might agree with > me that there are some possibilities for other list subscribers to connect with > this opportunity and you would be willing to post a means of connecting with > this group online. > > On a related but separate topic I find myself wondering about list contributors > who might be my neighbors, or who might be in some place I am going to visit; > and I certainly recall reading a lot of traffic about who lives where. My > question / challenge: Is there any way we can post our locations and means of > contacting us on the list or the website, without violating the individual's > needs to be private and safe from SPAM and other email varmints? This appeals > to me as a new thread on our list, or perhaps Dean might already have solved > the issue and I simply didn't figure it out yet! > > Night Heron (formerly Gary Bell, NoName and various other Mountain and put-down > names) > > Longtrail wrote: > > > >Ted A Hart asked if anyone still used American Indian Sign Language. > > > > > >A Lakota medicine man who attended one of the Fritztown Free Trappers > > >rendezvous said he and the Lakota use some ISL in some of their > > >ceremonies. > > > > > >Iron Burner > > > > Concerning Native American Sign Language. There is a group of people in > > the Portland area who, weekly, hold a meeting, and have for 10 + years, to > > learn the Native American Sign language. Some of the people are AMM while > > I believe, others are not. To attend a rendezvous with them is like being > > from another country as they often communicate via sigh language. NOT that > > they are conceided in their knowletdge. If you've taken time to learn then > > you will know what theyare saying, if not then, you might feel"left out".. > > I heard them discussing a time when some of them were visiting a location > > where there were many Native Americans, as my friends used the traditional > > sign language, the "elders" recognised what they were saying and were > > amazed to see the "old ways" used. Especially by Whites. So there are > > people who take the time and effort to learn the Native American sign > > language and use it at rendezvous as it would have been used during the Fur > > Trade Era by Native Americans. Longtrail ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: agottfre@telusplanet.net (Angela Gottfred) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian Sign Language Date: 27 May 1998 10:44:46 -0600 My husband and I tried to learn Indian Sign Language when we first began reenacting a few years ago. Quite frankly, I wasn't too keen on it, and we gave up after finding a number of problems in expressing ourselves. Then, this March, we participated in a reenactment at Fort Edmonton Park of the bicentennial of the first trading between the HBC and the Ktunaxa (Kootenay) people, which led to the establishment of Rocky Mountain House the following year, and David Thompson's crossing of the Rockies several years later. A number of Ktunaxa people had come from British Columbia to participate in the reenactment. We had time for a long chat together before the reenactment began, and found that we shared some common problems. For example, we agreed that most people don't appreciate/understand their history, too many folks think their ancestors were not very smart, &c &c. Then we all got our kit together & we reenacted the trading ceremony. To our surprise, the Ktunaxa portraying the Interpreter didn't speak Ktunaxa ; instead, he and the "Kootenay Chief" (unfortunately, the names of the historic Ktunaxa people were not recorded in William Tomison's journal) conversed in Indian Sign Language, which the Interpreter translated to English. This reignited our interest in ISL, and Jeff & I started studying it again. Now we're having lots of fun. The main problem was that the first time, we didn't know what to say! There was no modern vocabulary in the book we were using, for words like 'phone' and 'drive', and we encountered some major problems with tenses... Now we don't even try discussing modern things; instead, we talk about historic events, try to tell each other historic stories in sign, and we've figured out how to convey tenses (at least to each other!) After looking (very briefly!) at whether we should use the grammar of Native languages (Cree, Blackfoot, & Sarcee all seem to have a different sentence order from the subject-verb-object that we use in English), we decided we'd have to stick with English--because we already knew it! One of the things that I'm finding helpful is to remember certain fur trade expressions, which seem to be literal translations of Native expressions. For example, journals show that Natives measured distances not in miles, but in how long it took to cross them--how many nights were slept in journeying between, say, Edmonton House and Rocky Mountain House. So we didn't even bother to look up the sign for 'miles' (and there probably isn't one anyway). My impression (and I'm just a beginner) is that ISL was/is a sort of well-developed pidgin language : it doesn't enable people to converse as well as they would in their mother tongue, but it does enable two people who don't speak the same language to communicate very effectively. How do other folks use ISL? How have you solved some of the problems? For example, since we couldn't find signs for "he", "she", "they", or "it", we just keep repeating the names of the people or thing that we're talking about. Your humble & obedient servant, Angela Gottfred agottfre@telusplanet.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian Sign Language Date: 27 May 1998 12:25:21 -0700 Dear Angela; Oh how I wish I could put you in touch with Margret and George, (re:my previous post to Gary) and how I wish I were closer to them myself. They rattle off ISL to each other like it is their first language. I attended one of theor classes at our Brigade Territorials last spring and just barely got started but they have a unique way of teaching and make it surprisingly easy to learn. I'm sure you would gain some great insight into how to make practical use of ISL with their help. We also have members of the NW Brigade that are quit fluent in Chinook Jargon, the trade language of the Pacific NW and particularly the Columbia R. country from the mouth to who knows how far up stream. I have only periodical exposure to either language but would also like to learn to be more fluent in ISL. I think the only way I will get fluent is to inlist my wife as you both have done and as George and Margret do. I asume that you have and use Willeam Tomkins' Book "Indian Sign Language". That is the reference that I have at my disposal. I notice that there are signs for 'he','she', and, 'they' but not for it. I remember Margret saying last spring in her class that ISL is a living dinamic language and based on pantomine so when there is no sign for what you want to say, it is generally accepted in thier circle to make up a sign that is recognized as visually discribing what you want to convey. Again, my appologies for not being of more help but I must thank you for getting me jacked up to get started again. My strong recomendation is that you contact Margret and George through the PVLR club at the address I gave Gary. Let me know if I can be of further service to you. YMOS Capt. Lahti ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: MtMan-List: Horsehair dye Date: 27 May 1998 15:20:59 -0600 (CST) I'm looking for a good way to dye horsehair, Native and/or modern. Any suggestions? TIA, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Glenn Darilek Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Men of The Cloth Date: 27 May 1998 15:51:21 -0500 P. Amschler wrote: > > Knowing that the church of Rome sent many missionaries to the Indians and in towns it was common to find at least one church, has any one ever seen a accounts of pastors (maybe as we know them today) going into the mountians to preach at vous? As far as Catholics, Father deSmet (sp?) was in the Horse Creek rendezvous area of the Green River, but I don't think it was at a rendezvous. Someone correct me untill I can get home to my meager library. As far as Protestants, of course we have Henry Spalding, Gray, Whitman, and Narcissa Whitman, who I believe was a preacher in her own right. They were at the 1836 rendezvous, and maybe some other. Check Dean Rudy's on line AMM library for some diaries of I think Spalding and Whitman. Joe Meek reported a humorous anecdote for one rendezvous. One of the preachers above was giving a Sabbath sermon at a rendezvous. The service was well-attended by mountain men until a small group of buffalo appeared in the distance. At the sight of the buffalo, the mountain men bolted, favoring the hunt for meat over the quest for salvation. Iron Burner ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian Sign Language Date: 27 May 1998 18:26:16 EDT In a message dated 98-05-27 15:57:52 EDT, you write: << lahtirog@gte.net (Roger Lahti) >> i would like to know the sign for iron tounge. or where i could get it. as there a man in the hood that is deaf mute and i cant converse with him maby i should not bother him but my nature is to explore new ground all the time ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian Sign Language Date: 27 May 1998 18:40:57 EDT In a message dated 98-05-27 13:51:50 EDT, you write: << agottfre@telusplanet.net >> ive ben fired up about this isl for a long time as there is a man in my n-h thats is deaf mute . i would like to tell him my name is iron tounge that walks. again ag as if said to all of my friends in list if i have ofended you withmy crass coments please for give me . im getting more adept at this computer being self tought and com -ileterat spelling and dangerous to a fault whit which button to push im getting better. im also dislecsicic spelling . didnot know tel a few years what was rong with me. i still have problems with geting the letter in the right order. se you later iron tounge that walks --- jerry wheeler ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dale Nelson Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Men of The Cloth Date: 27 May 1998 16:03:05 -0700 P. Amschler wrote: has any one ever seen any accounts of pastors (maybe as we know them today) going into the mountians to preach at vous? Paul, Protestant missionaries include Dr. Marcus and Narcissa Whitman, the Reverand and Mrs. Henry Spaulding, and William Gray whom I believe was a lay preacher. They were at the Green River Rendezvous of 1836, and were on there way to establish missions with the Nez Perce, and they held church services at the rendezvous. I don't know of any in 1837, but in 1838 there was Elkanah Walker, Cushing Eells, and Asa Smith and their wives. In 1839 there were three more missionaries, Reverend and Mrs. John Griffith and Mr. and Mrs. Asahel Munger. I don't know the name of the third. Then in 1840 there were three more protestant's, the Reverends Harvey Clark, P. B. Littlejohn, Alvin Smith and their wives. All of the above held services at the rendezvous, and they were traveling on to Oregon to settle and establish missions. In 1840 there was also a Catholic Father, Pierre Jean de Smet. He went on to establish a mission with the Flatheads in what is now Montana. Gowans in "Rocky Mountain Rendezvous" is where I got this information. Gowans quotes from a letter DeSmet wrote. "On Sunday, the 5th of July, I had the consolation of celebrating the holy sacrifice of mass sub dio." This took place at the rendezvous. I've also read somewhere that he was very disappointed with the French for letting their religion go, and he held confession at the Vous. I'll bet he got his ear full at that one. I would have to agree with you that missionaries probably had something to do with some Indians changing their life style, but before you paint them with new age ideas and politically correct BS I wonder which had the most effect destroying their culture, Christianity or whiskey and disease and crooked traders helped by a crooked US government. DN ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Powers Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bow and Arrows Date: 27 May 1998 18:35:25 -0500 On 1998-05-24 hist_text@lists.xmission.com said to kestrel@ticon.net >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Precedence: bulk >Status: >Does anyone know how far back the bow and arrow goes here in North >America? It would seems from the archaeological record of >arrowheads that they must go back quite a ways but I don't recall >ever seeing any dated info on bows that have been found in ancient >burials. Would the points on atlatl (sp) darts be any different >that those used on bow launched arrows? >Dennis ATLatl points are the same as arrow points as far as I've seen. Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tedhart@juno.com (Ted A Hart) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian Sign Language Date: 27 May 1998 19:36:28 EDT I, for one, would like to meet another people of like mind in learning ISL as I already know American Sign Language (my native language). I once watched a foreign deaf movie in which a deaf man who knew 30 deaf sign languages (from countries he had visited across the world) and he said that an average deaf person can learn the basics of the other sign language in less than 3 days and about a week more then that person would be able to chat completely in that language. Interesting because hearing people have a harder time learning speech probably becuase of the difficulty in "teaching" one's tongue how to speak it. I live in Austin, TX for starters. Ted _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian Sign Language.. Date: 27 May 1998 15:58:38 +0000 ISL was a topic a few months back. Be sure and get Clark's book as well as Tompkins' book. It is p[robably more authentic. Also see if you can find a copy of Tim McCoy's video on ISL> DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS --- PROPRIETORS OF THE NADA TRADING COMPANY Roger Lahti wrote: >Dear Angela; >Oh how I wish I could put you in touch with Margret and George, (re:my previous >post to Gary) and how I wish I were closer to them myself. They rattle off >ISL to >each other like it is their first language. I attended one of theor classes >at our >Brigade Territorials last spring and just barely got started but they have a >unique way of teaching and make it surprisingly easy to learn. I'm sure you >would >gain some great insight into how to make practical use of ISL with their help. > >We also have members of the NW Brigade that are quit fluent in Chinook >Jargon, the >trade language of the Pacific NW and particularly the Columbia R. country >from the >mouth to who knows how far up stream. I have only periodical exposure to either >language but would also like to learn to be more fluent in ISL. I think the only >way I will get fluent is to inlist my wife as you both have done and as >George and >Margret do. > >I asume that you have and use Willeam Tomkins' Book "Indian Sign Language". That >is the reference that I have at my disposal. I notice that there are signs for >'he','she', and, 'they' but not for it. I remember Margret saying last spring in >her class that ISL is a living dinamic language and based on pantomine so when >there is no sign for what you want to say, it is generally accepted in thier >circle to make up a sign that is recognized as visually discribing what you want >to convey. > >Again, my appologies for not being of more help but I must thank you for getting >me jacked up to get started again. My strong recomendation is that you contact >Margret and George through the PVLR club at the address I gave Gary. > >Let me know if I can be of further service to you. >YMOS >Capt. Lahti > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > >Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com > (SMTPD32-4.03) id A1CD2E00116; Wed, 27 May 1998 14:04:29 MDT >Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.82 #1) > id 0yemJ8-0007hU-00; Wed, 27 May 1998 13:56:18 -0600 >Received: from (xmission.xmission.com) [198.60.22.2] (drudy) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) > id 0yemJ6-0007h2-00; Wed, 27 May 1998 13:56:16 -0600 >Received: (from drudy@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.8/8.7.5) id >NAA15988 for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Wed, 27 May 1998 13:56:14 -0600 (MDT) >Received: from (smtp2.mailsrvcs.net) [207.115.153.31] > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) > id 0yelob-0005hf-00; Wed, 27 May 1998 13:24:45 -0600 >Received: from gte.net (1Cust112.tnt1.kennewick.wa.da.uu.net [153.36.7.112]) > by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net with ESMTP id OAA03746 > for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 14:23:58 -0500 (CDT) >Message-ID: <356C68A1.B31D7372@gte.net> >Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 12:25:21 -0700 >From: Roger Lahti >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian Sign Language >References: <98May27.104454-0600_mdt.267967-18542+102@mail.telusplanet.ne t> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >X-UIDL: 891663557 >Status: U > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Men of The Cloth.... Date: 27 May 1998 15:58:42 +0000 Father DeSmet, the Spauldings, Mr. Gray - Look these up. I don't know of too many others, but there were Missionaries. As the old saying goes : the Indians might have whipped the Army, but they couldn't beat the Missionaries. DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS --- PROPRIETORS OF THE NADA TRADING COMPANY P. Amschler wrote: >. I have seen a lot of differnt posts on everything from teflon patches to >Indian sign. Now I have a question that may or may not draw the ere of a few >people but it is one that I hope will cause some good lively posts. AND this has >everything to do with the list. ok here we go > > Knowing that the church of Rome sent many missionaries to the Indians and >in towns it was common to find at least one church, has any one ever seen a >accounts of pastors (maybe as we know them today) going into the mountians to preach >at vous? > I know that once the white man moved into indian lands they gave the >missionaries free run of the place to see if they could turn the savage to God hence >to the white ways hence the destruction of the native life style and the tribes. >But in studing the topic I have onle seen one time where preachers went to the >Mountian Men. That being in 1800 on the French trading post. > > Paul Amschler >--- >amschlers@mailcity.com > > > >Get your FREE, private e-mail >account at http://www.mailcity.com > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > >m [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com (SMTPD32-4.03) id A3823F1011A >mo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0yekIB- >y xmission.xmission.com (8.8.8/8.7.5) id LAA21392 for hist_text@lis > id 0yekIB-0007Z9-00; Wed, 27 May 1998 11:47:11 -0600 >Received: from (xmission.xmission.com) [198.60.22.2] (drudy) > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) > id 0yekI9-0007Yp-00; Wed, 27 May 1998 11:47:09 -0600 >Received: (from drudy@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.8/8.7.5) id >LAA21392 for hist_text@lists.xmission.com; Wed, 27 May 1998 11:47:08 -0600 (MDT) >Received: from (mail.xmission.com) [198.60.22.22] > by lists.xmission.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #1) > id 0yeiOM-0005h9-00; Wed, 27 May 1998 09:45:26 -0600 >Received: from (mcfs.whowhere.com) [209.1.236.44] > by mail.xmission.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) > id 0yeiOM-0000PM-00; Wed, 27 May 1998 09:45:26 -0600 >To: hist_text@xmission.com >Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 08:44:16 -0700 >From: "P. Amschler" >Message-ID: >Mime-Version: 1.0 >X-Sent-Mail: off >X-Mailer: MailCity Service >Subject: MtMan-List: Men of The Cloth >X-Sender-Ip: 38.14.104.7 >Organization: MailCity (http://www.mailcity.com:80) >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >X-UIDL: 891663552 >Status: U > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gail Carbiener" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Men of The Cloth Date: 27 May 1998 18:06:43 -0700 This may not be exactly what you are referring to, but: At the 1835 Green River Rendezvous Whitman and Parker were along. At the close of the vou, Parker went with Bridger 20 plus miles to Little Jackson Hole arriving on Sunday. Meek leaves the following information: (from Fred Gowans book Rocky Mountain Rendezvous) ..... A scene more unusual could hardly have transpired than that of a company of trappers listening to the preaching of the word of God. ...... The Rev Samuel parker preached, and the men were as politely attentive as it was in their reckless natures to bve, until, in the midst of the discourse, a bond of bvuffalo appeared in the valley, when the congregation incontinently broke up, without staying for a benediction, and every man made haste after his horse, gun, and rope, leaving Mr. Parker to discourse to vacant ground. Gail ================ > Knowing that the church of Rome sent many missionaries to the Indians and in towns it was common to find at least one church, has any one ever seen a accounts of pastors (maybe as we know them today) going into the mountians to preach at vous? > Paul Amschler >--- >amschlers@mailcity.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Men of The Cloth Date: 27 May 1998 19:54:05 -0600 Paul Study the history of Father DeSmet Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Write for custom tanning prices We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and hair on robes Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Glenn Darilek Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Men of the Cloth Date: 27 May 1998 21:54:43 -0500 Many clergymen were present at the rendezvous. All of this is in "Rocky Mountain Rendezvous, A History of the Fur Trade Rendezvous" by Fred R. Gowans. By the way, that book is a jewel and is packed with insightful information. It is particularly good if you travel in the area of the original rendezvous. 1834 Rendezvous Reverend Jason Lee was at the 1834 rendezvous at Ham's Fork with four companions 1835 Rendezvous Dr. Marcus Whitman and Rev. Samuel Parker going west to see if Flathead and Nez Perce could be missionized 1836 Rendezvous Presbyterian Dr Whitman and wife Narcissa Rev Henry Spalding and wife William H. Gray on their way to the Columbia 1837 Rendezvous William Gray travelling east to find a wife and more missionaries 1838 Rendezvous Rev.Jason Lee, Methodist missionary on way back to states to recruit more missionaries Mr Edwards, associate missionary with Lee also William H. Gray Elkanah Walker Cushing Ells Asa B. Smith and their wives and assistant Cornelius Rogers 1839 Rendezvous Rev. and Mrs John S. Griffin Mr. and Mrs Asahel Munger another missionary 1840 Rendezvous Catholic Father Pierre Jean DeSmet was at the 1840 rendezvous Congregational Missionaries Reverends Harvey Clark, P.B. Littlejohn, Alvin T. Smith and their wives In the reference above, many of the mountaineer diarists described the disdain they had for the missionaries. In "Across the Wide Missouri" by Bernard de Voto, he makes a point that the missionary zeal was misplaced because of a communication difficulty with the Native Americans of the Columbia River. In their way of thinking, religion was power - power over sickness, power over their enemies, technological power, etc. When they asked for the white man's religion, they were actually asking for was the white man technology including medicine, weapons, tools, even the power to domesticate animals. Of course, the missionaries came primarily to convert the Indians to Christianity, which was not really what the Indians had in mind. When the Indians got the white man's diseases, they felt betrayed by the missionaries. Iron Burner ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Just tossing out an idea, ,would like some feedb Date: 27 May 1998 23:00:14 EDT Emma-- You're not off base at all. Although the climate as described by Mike and Don is accurate regarding the NPS, there may be other ways to skin this cat. I have been doing some research along these same lines, not just the St. Vrains, but others and have discussed them with a member of the NPS and the Colorado Historical Society. Contact me directly at mtnman1449@aol.com and lets see what we can stir up. Pat Surrena, #1449 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: MtMan-List: Re:davenport rifle Date: 28 May 1998 00:47:27 -0400 upon doing some more looking have found some information of the davenport rifle that information was requested for. Reference #1---- Flanermans guide to Antique firearms 4th edition---Page 603 Davenport Firearms company Providence Rhode Island& Norwich Conn. cira 1880-1915 the founder William H. Davenport held a great many papents on breech loading firearms. the company devoted its energies almost exclusively to single barrel Shotguns of very inexpensive grades, making both house and brand names #17-115 reference #2----The standard catalog of firearms 4th edition page 212 davenport made single barrel shotguns in 10-12-16-20 gage with blue, case hardened recievers and walnut stocks mfg0 1880-1915 value or price Excelent condition $200.00 to Poor condition $75.00 they also made a special 8 gage goose gun value or price excelent condition $300.00 poor condition $100.00 they also made falling block single shot rifles in 22--25--32 cal rimfire all with a 24 " barrel round with a exposed hammer blued with walnut stocks prices similar to above. the top of the barrels will be marked "The W.H. Davenport Firearms Co Norwich Conn USA Patented Dec,15,1891. there manufacture was between 1891 and 1910. THIS IS ALL THE INFORMATION THAT I CAN FIND--- i THOUGHT THE GUN WAS A MUZZLELOADER THAT YOU WERE LOOKING FOR INFORMATION ON. CANNOT FIND ANYTHING ON DAVENPORT OTHER THAN THE ABOVE INFORMATION. I only took a chance to look in my flanermans book and found it and then went to the other book that gives values for conditions of guns--- I hope this is the information that you are seeking. if it's a muzzle loader in the early 1800 range i guess you are out of luck. you can still call lee Good at the davis museum. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Thanks! :) Date: 28 May 1998 00:52:58 EDT Yes, well, looks like I will have to talk to the folks in Washington REAL nice :) Thanks ,all the input received was very useful. As to St. Vrain's room being haunted...wow, by whom? Thought the poor man died a happy camper in Mora (one too many cigars)..although brother Marcellin did committed suicide, but he is buried way back in Ralls County Missouri... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bow and Arrows Date: 28 May 1998 01:13:49 -0400 dont believe the statement about the arrow points and atlatal points being the same size is totally correct. ATlatal points are usually larger since they are more of a spear and usually a bit larger than Arrow which is shot with a bow. the atlatal is a stick that is used to hearl the dart or arrow and is a extention of the arm to get more force and greater distance than a common spear. I dont have all my reference books on arrow heads here at hand so I cannot quote page and verse. The Atlatal was developed before the Bow and arrow and was primarily a spear thrower--- yes some of the atlatal darts were a bit smaller than a average spear and used smaller points but they were still larger than a point used with a bow and arrow most of the time. "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Wed, 27 May 1998 18:35:25 -0500 Jeff Powers writes: >On 1998-05-24 hist_text@lists.xmission.com said to kestrel@ticon.net > >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) > >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >Precedence: bulk > >Status: > >Does anyone know how far back the bow and arrow goes here in North > >America? It would seems from the archaeological record of > >arrowheads that they must go back quite a ways but I don't recall > >ever seeing any dated info on bows that have been found in >ancient > >burials. Would the points on atlatl (sp) darts be any different > >that those used on bow launched arrows? > >Dennis >ATLatl points are the same as arrow points as far as I've seen. > >Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian Sign Language Date: 27 May 1998 22:51:56 -0700 --------------BBCF18B38F414B631AEACAC2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Iron Tounge; Try this: Make the sign for ME- Point right thumb at Breast. Make the sign for IRON- (make the sign for HARD) which is , hold out left hand ,thumb up and strike it with right fist two or three times. Then point to something metalic preferably Iron. Make sign for TOUNGE-Protrude tounge from mouth a trifle and touch with first finger of right hand. Make sign for WALK- Extend hands in front of your body palms down and make a walking motion with them as in, first one forward, down and back then the other forward, down and back. This comes from Tomkins book and is a literal translation. Those that know ISL better might discribe the signs differently or proscribe different signs, but I think the above will work. Good luck Iron Tounge and let me know how this turns out. YMOS Capt. Lahti ITWHEELER@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 98-05-27 13:51:50 EDT, you write: > > << agottfre@telusplanet.net >> > ive ben fired up about this isl for a long time as there is a man in my n-h > thats is deaf mute . i would like to tell him my name is iron tounge that > walks. again ag as if said to all of my friends in list if i have ofended you > withmy crass coments please for give me . im getting more adept at this > computer being self tought and com -ileterat spelling and dangerous to a fault > whit which button to push im getting better. im also dislecsicic spelling . > didnot know tel a few years what was rong with me. i still have problems with > geting the letter in the right order. se you later iron tounge that walks --- > jerry wheeler --------------BBCF18B38F414B631AEACAC2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Iron Tounge;
Try this:
Make the sign for ME- Point right thumb at Breast.
Make the sign for IRON- (make the sign for HARD) which is , hold out left hand ,thumb up and strike it with right fist two or three times. Then point to something metalic preferably Iron.
Make sign for TOUNGE-Protrude tounge from mouth a trifle and touch with first finger of right hand.
Make sign for WALK- Extend hands in front of your body palms down and make a walking motion with them as in, first one forward, down and back then the other forward, down and back.

This comes from Tomkins book and is a literal translation. Those that know  ISL better might discribe the signs differently or proscribe different signs, but I think the above will work.
Good luck Iron Tounge and let me know how this turns out.

YMOS
Capt. Lahti

ITWHEELER@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 98-05-27 13:51:50 EDT, you write:

<< agottfre@telusplanet.net >>
ive ben fired up about this isl for a long time as there is a man in my n-h
thats is deaf mute . i would like to tell him my name is iron tounge that
walks. again ag as if said to all of my friends in list  if i have ofended you
withmy crass coments please for give me . im getting more adept at this
computer being self tought and com -ileterat spelling and dangerous to a fault
whit which button to push im getting better. im also dislecsicic spelling ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken " Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horsehair dye Date: 28 May 1998 01:20:34 -0500 When we were making the movie the Postman we used Lady Clairol hair dye. On a live animal you have to do small areas at a time or you can burn an animals skin. Should work real well on clipped horse hair. Ken YellowFeather ---------- > From: Henry B. Crawford > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Horsehair dye > Date: Wednesday, May 27, 1998 4:20 PM > > I'm looking for a good way to dye horsehair, Native and/or modern. Any > suggestions? > > TIA, > > HBC > > ***************************************** > Henry B. Crawford Curator of History > mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University > 806/742-2442 Box 43191 > FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 > WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum > ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: mountain name Date: 28 May 1998 05:03:41 EDT In a message dated 98-05-24 00:52:15 EDT, you write: << Longshot >> your welcom at my fire any time iron tounge ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "JON P TOWNS" Subject: MtMan-List: Men of the Cloth Date: 27 May 1998 17:30:13 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD8995.1B053360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Voyagers were asked what they wanted the most in the wilderness. They said a Priest. Later Jon T ------=_NextPart_000_01BD8995.1B053360 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The Voyagers were asked what they = wanted the most in the wilderness.  They said a Priest.  Later = Jon T


------=_NextPart_000_01BD8995.1B053360-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bruce.mcneal@ssa.gov Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Horsehair dye Date: 28 May 1998 08:45:00 -0500 I've used both liquid Rit dye and food dye. I've had varying results with the final color. When dying white horse hair "red", I've gotten everything from red to orange. Guess it depends in part on the horses diet before the hair was taken. - Bruce McNeal -----Original Message----- Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 1998 3:20 PM I'm looking for a good way to dye horsehair, Native and/or modern. Any suggestions? TIA, HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* << File: RFC822.TXT >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horsehair dye Date: 28 May 1998 08:15:52 -0600 I have dyed a great deal of horse hair for museum projects and Native American objects. I use a special leather dye. Colors I generally use are red, green and yellow. I can dye most any color. Usually I just dye the whole horse tail and then cut what hair I need. White or grey dyes the best Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Write for custom tanning prices We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and hair on robes Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horsehair dye Date: 28 May 1998 08:27:58 -0600 Ken, I saw Kevin Mcniven's horses after Postman, Commercial hair dye was not the best to use on live animals. It did indeed irritate many of the horses skin. Their are not alot of good alternatives for dying hair on animals that used for hard riding. If just dying horsehair see my previous message Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery Call us about our professional home tanning kit-307-455-2440 Write for custom tanning prices We produce rawhide lampshades and carry a large selection of leather and hair on robes Fine lodgepole furniture, pillows, Indian reproductions, paintings, baskets check out our new web site: http://www.onpages.com/absaroka ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dennis Fisher Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bow and Arrows Date: 28 May 1998 07:43:06 -0700 Michael Pierce wrote: > > dont believe the statement about the arrow points and atlatal points > being the same size is totally correct. I guess what I'm getting at is whether or not the Indians were using bows during the pre Columbian times. Were they using strictly spears and atlatls? Were bows introduced with the Spanish Conquistadors like the horse? If anyone knows of a reference on the subject, I would appreciate it. Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Glenn Darilek Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bow and Arrows Date: 28 May 1998 10:25:40 -0500 Michael Pierce wrote: > the atlatal is a stick that is used to hearl > the dart or arrow and is a extention of the arm to get more force and > greater distance than a common spear. Not so much for greater distance, but for more force. You could have enough force at close range to kill an animal. With any distance, the force (velocity) decreases to be ineffective, and the accuracy falls off quickly. Iron Burner ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: pwjones@onr.com Subject: MtMan-List: Egg Powder Date: 28 May 1998 11:22:47 -0500 (CDT) The following is a receipe for egg powder. Query: what are the health risks associated with using this material, assuming it has been properly prepared? I have more than vague fears of food poisoning or worse. Egg Powder: 1/2 dozen eggs. Beat hard. Spread very thin layer of egg mixture on two flat bottomed pans. Do not put into oven as it will cook. Rather, set the pans in the sun during the day so that moisture is evaporated and a crust remains. Remove from sun when dry (repeat next day if still moist). Pulverize the egg material. Dry in sun again until completely dry. Pack in tins or other sealed container. One pound evaporated powder egg equals four dozen fresh eggs. One tablespoon egg powder with two tablespoons water equals one egg. Useful in omelets, scrambled or in combination with other foods such as onion, side bacon, etc. O.K. Is it safe to try? Paul W. Jones ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horsehair dye Date: 28 May 1998 11:23:32 -0600 (CST) >Ken, > >I saw Kevin Mcniven's horses after Postman, Commercial hair dye was not the >best to use on live animals. It did indeed irritate many of the horses >skin. Their are not alot of good alternatives for dying hair on animals >that used for hard riding. If just dying horsehair see my previous message > It's just off-white horsehair. No animals attached. ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Conflicting info Date: 28 May 1998 12:30:17 EDT Hello list. I am new to this and have enjoyed reading the postings, and have repilied to a few. I am early in my journey as far as acquiring knowledge is concerned and am doing a lot of reading from several sources simultaneously. Ran across a conflict from a few different sources regarding one Mr. Fontanell (sp). One account i found said he committed suicide while another said that in effect he died fat and happy back in the states. Anyone know where I can start my next reading project and find out? Thanks for your patience and your info. Kevin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Egg Powder Date: 28 May 1998 14:37:26 -0400 --------------DC44DA974CBF805E891EEC15 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul, I ran this by a friend of mine an he was leery of Salmonella, but said that is it was done in a dehydrator or oven at low temp, that the possibility would be GREATLY diminished. Dennis The Purtiest Damn Mountain Man what ever graced the Hills pwjones@onr.com wrote: > The following is a receipe for egg powder. Query: what are the health risks > associated with using this material, assuming it has been properly prepared? > I have more than vague fears of food poisoning or worse. > > Egg Powder: 1/2 dozen eggs. Beat hard. Spread very thin layer of egg > mixture on two flat bottomed pans. Do not put into oven as it will cook. > Rather, set the pans in the sun during the day so that moisture is > evaporated and a crust remains. Remove from sun when dry (repeat next day > if still moist). Pulverize the egg material. Dry in sun again until > completely dry. Pack in tins or other sealed container. > > One pound evaporated powder egg equals four dozen fresh eggs. One > tablespoon egg powder with two tablespoons water equals one egg. Useful in > omelets, scrambled or in combination with other foods such as onion, side > bacon, etc. > > O.K. Is it safe to try? > > Paul W. Jones --------------DC44DA974CBF805E891EEC15 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul,
 I ran this by a friend of mine an he was leery of Salmonella, but said that is it was done in a dehydrator or oven at low temp, that the possibility would be GREATLY diminished.
Dennis
The Purtiest Damn Mountain Man what ever graced the Hills

pwjones@onr.com wrote:

The following is a receipe for egg powder.  Query: what are the health risks
associated with using this material, assuming it has been properly prepared?
 I have more than vague fears of food poisoning or worse.

Egg Powder:  1/2 dozen eggs.  Beat hard.  Spread very thin layer of egg
mixture on two flat bottomed pans.  Do not put into oven as it will cook.
Rather, set the pans in the sun during the day so that moisture is
evaporated and a crust remains.  Remove from sun when dry (repeat next day
if still moist).  Pulverize the egg material.  Dry in sun again until
completely dry.  Pack in tins or other sealed container.

One pound evaporated powder egg equals four dozen fresh eggs.  One
tablespoon egg powder with two tablespoons water equals one egg.  Useful in
omelets, scrambled or in combination with other foods such as onion, side
bacon, etc.

O.K.  Is it safe to try?

Paul W. Jones

  --------------DC44DA974CBF805E891EEC15-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Scott Allen" Subject: MtMan-List: Trippin' Date: 28 May 1998 15:00:55 -0500 Hello the list, I will be on business trips to Petersburg/Blackstone, Va on the 8-9 June and in the Anchorage/Fairbanks, AK area from 13-24 July if anyone is close by and would like to get together for dinner or something. Your most humble servant, Scott Allen http://members.tripod.com/~SCOTT ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken " Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horsehair dye Date: 28 May 1998 13:54:24 -0500 Howdy Henry, Yep, I know all about what it did to the animals and to me. That's why I agreed to do the National Inquirer article about how the horses were treated in the Postman. I won't even say on list what I think about Kevin. I have spent over a year recovering from being thrown and dragged, kicked and so on by one of the horses used in the film. Nearly ALL the animals were burned! That is why I said you HAVE to do a small patch at a time. We can continue this off list if you like. Ken YellowFeather ---------- > From: Henry B. Crawford > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horsehair dye > Date: Thursday, May 28, 1998 12:23 PM > > >Ken, > > > >I saw Kevin Mcniven's horses after Postman, Commercial hair dye was not the > >best to use on live animals. It did indeed irritate many of the horses > >skin. Their are not alot of good alternatives for dying hair on animals > >that used for hard riding. If just dying horsehair see my previous message > > > > It's just off-white horsehair. No animals attached. > > ***************************************** > Henry B. Crawford Curator of History > mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University > 806/742-2442 Box 43191 > FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 > WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum > ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: seanbear Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Egg Powder Date: 28 May 1998 15:33:23 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005C_01BD8A4D.F3646600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would be very leary also of salmonella. Part of my job in the Navy as = a Corpsman was food inspection, and eggs were one of the main things = that caused food borne illnesses. IMHO, setting them in the sun, even = beaten, would greatly increase the rate of bacteria growth should it be = present in even one egg.... This would allow it to contaminate the = entire batch. As with Jerky, I agree that an oven on low setting, or = even a dehydrator, might lessen the possibility of food borne illness. = No guarantee however... One can never be too careful with food = preparation. I have seen an entire ships compliment be stricken with = food infection due to eggs, milk, etc... that was bad. Addison Miller -----Original Message----- From: Dennis Miles To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Thursday, May 28, 1998 2:58 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Egg Powder =20 =20 Paul,=20 I ran this by a friend of mine an he was leery of Salmonella, but = said that is it was done in a dehydrator or oven at low temp, that the = possibility would be GREATLY diminished.=20 Dennis=20 The Purtiest Damn Mountain Man what ever graced the Hills=20 pwjones@onr.com wrote:=20 The following is a receipe for egg powder. Query: what are the = health risks=20 associated with using this material, assuming it has been = properly prepared?=20 I have more than vague fears of food poisoning or worse.=20 Egg Powder: 1/2 dozen eggs. Beat hard. Spread very thin layer = of egg=20 mixture on two flat bottomed pans. Do not put into oven as it = will cook.=20 Rather, set the pans in the sun during the day so that moisture = is=20 evaporated and a crust remains. Remove from sun when dry = (repeat next day=20 if still moist). Pulverize the egg material. Dry in sun again = until=20 completely dry. Pack in tins or other sealed container.=20 One pound evaporated powder egg equals four dozen fresh eggs. = One=20 tablespoon egg powder with two tablespoons water equals one egg. = Useful in=20 omelets, scrambled or in combination with other foods such as = onion, side=20 bacon, etc.=20 O.K. Is it safe to try?=20 Paul W. Jones =20 ------=_NextPart_000_005C_01BD8A4D.F3646600 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I would be very leary also of = salmonella. =20 Part of my job in the Navy as a Corpsman was food inspection, and eggs = were one=20 of the main things that caused food borne illnesses.  IMHO, setting = them in=20 the sun, even beaten, would greatly increase the rate of bacteria growth = should=20 it be present in even one egg.... This would allow it to contaminate the = entire=20 batch.  As with Jerky, I agree that an oven on low setting, or even = a=20 dehydrator, might lessen the possibility of food borne illness.  No = guarantee however... One can never be too careful with food = preparation.  I=20 have seen an entire ships compliment be stricken with food infection due = to=20 eggs, milk, etc... that was bad.
 
Addison Miller
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Dennis Miles <deforge1@wesnet.com>
To:= =20 hist_text@lists.xmission.com= =20 <hist_text@lists.xmission.com= >
Date:=20 Thursday, May 28, 1998 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: = MtMan-List: Egg=20 Powder

Paul,
 I ran this by a = friend=20 of mine an he was leery of Salmonella, but said that is it was done = in a=20 dehydrator or oven at low temp, that the possibility would be = GREATLY=20 diminished.
Dennis
The Purtiest Damn Mountain = Man what=20 ever graced the Hills=20

pwjones@onr.com wrote:=20

The following is a receipe for egg = powder. =20 Query: what are the health risks
associated with using this=20 material, assuming it has been properly prepared?
 I = have more=20 than vague fears of food poisoning or worse.=20

Egg Powder:  1/2 dozen eggs.  Beat hard.  = Spread very=20 thin layer of egg
mixture on two flat bottomed pans.  = Do not=20 put into oven as it will cook.
Rather, set the pans in the = sun=20 during the day so that moisture is
evaporated and a crust=20 remains.  Remove from sun when dry (repeat next day
if = still=20 moist).  Pulverize the egg material.  Dry in sun again = until=20
completely dry.  Pack in tins or other sealed = container.=20

One pound evaporated powder egg equals four dozen fresh = eggs. =20 One
tablespoon egg powder with two tablespoons water equals = one=20 egg.  Useful in
omelets, scrambled or in combination = with other=20 foods such as onion, side
bacon, etc.=20

O.K.  Is it safe to try?=20

Paul W. Jones

  =
------=_NextPart_000_005C_01BD8A4D.F3646600-- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken " Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bow and Arrows Date: 28 May 1998 14:26:19 -0500 I am afraid I will have to disagree with you both on "force". An atlatl like an arrow kills by the cutting of tissues. Having used an atlatl to kill game I will give you all what I have observed. The atlatl is the throwing tool used to throw a light spear that has a removable tip. I usually carried about a dozen tips, some with steel points and some with stone. The tips are about 8 to 12 inches long and I make mine with cedar. The shaft that they fit into can be made of bamboo, reed, or any suitable straight wood. When thrown the tip with the steel or stone or antler point sticks in the animal, and the shaft will "bounce" out. ( if thrown properly) This allows you to insert another tip and have immediate use of the same shaft. If the point is sharp it will cut arteries and the animal will bleed to death. The atlatl does give an increased range but I have found that I got best use when it was used at less than 25 yards. ( I am not real accurate past that) I never found more force to make all that much difference as long as I hit an animal hard enough to make the tip fall out. I have taken two deer with the spear and atlatl and lots of small game. The first deer took three hits to finish it but the second went down with one that hit the lungs and heart. I know there are others who are much more proficient than I with these kinds of tools. But I have found if the tips are sharp, and you stalk close enough, you don't go hungry! Iron Burner is right about accuracy falling off, at least with me! YMOS, Ken YellowFeather ---------- > From: Glenn Darilek > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bow and Arrows > Date: Thursday, May 28, 1998 10:25 AM > > Michael Pierce wrote: > > the atlatal is a stick that is used to hearl > > the dart or arrow and is a extention of the arm to get more force and > > greater distance than a common spear. > > Not so much for greater distance, but for more force. You could have > enough force at close range to kill an animal. With any distance, the > force (velocity) decreases to be ineffective, and the accuracy falls off > quickly. > > Iron Burner ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: hawknest4@juno.com (Michael Pierce) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bow and Arrows Date: 28 May 1998 15:47:21 -0400 DENNIS fISHER: suggest you get a copy of "mystic warrers of the plains" by thomas E. mall and look at chapter 19 which starts at page 397 and ends on page 441-- the title to this chapter is bows, arrows and quivers-- Its about as complet of information as you will find- and will answer most of the questions that you have asked. The part on pre columbian you would have to check with one of the other experts in this matter but Actual dateing the start time for bows can be very difficult to be specific on--- I BELIEVE THAT THE REFERENCE THAT i GAVE YOU WILL GIVE YOU ALL THE INFO THAT YOU REQUIRE. CONTACT ME OFFLINE IF YOU HAVE ANY FURTHER QUESTIONS: AT HAWKNEST4@JUNO.COM. FOR AN ADDITIONAL REFERENCE AND RESOURCE: also suggest you check national geographic vol 156 no 3 dated september 1979 page 330--363 it also has a foldout which gives some of the time periods for early man and the type of points that were used-- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(813) 771-1815 On Thu, 28 May 1998 07:43:06 -0700 Dennis Fisher writes: >Michael Pierce wrote: >> >> dont believe the statement about the arrow points and atlatal points >> being the same size is totally correct. > >I guess what I'm getting at is whether or not the Indians were using >bows during the pre Columbian times. Were they using strictly spears >and atlatls? Were bows introduced with the Spanish Conquistadors like >the horse? If anyone knows of a reference on the subject, I would >appreciate it. > > Dennis > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken " Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bow and Arrows Date: 28 May 1998 14:36:47 -0500 I don't know if this is historically correct or not but my atlatl tips I used were larger than the points I made for my arrows. I made mine of steel or stone or antler and made them longer and usually 3/4 of an inch wide at the base. This seems to have given me more cutting surface, which I consider the most important part. I do know that the atlatl preceded the bow by centuries. Perhaps one of our more learned members might have reference material on this? YMOS, ken YellowFeather ---------- > From: Dennis Fisher > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bow and Arrows > Date: Thursday, May 28, 1998 9:43 AM > > Michael Pierce wrote: > > > > dont believe the statement about the arrow points and atlatal points > > being the same size is totally correct. > > I guess what I'm getting at is whether or not the Indians were using > bows during the pre Columbian times. Were they using strictly spears > and atlatls? Were bows introduced with the Spanish Conquistadors like > the horse? If anyone knows of a reference on the subject, I would > appreciate it. > > Dennis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horsehair dye Date: 28 May 1998 15:53:05 EDT Don't know if it would work on horse hair, but I suspect it would. The kids at my school dye their hair with kool aid. They get really "interesting?" reds and greens. Red Hawk ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pat Quilter" Subject: MtMan-List: Re Men of the Cloth Date: 28 May 1998 11:33:03 -0700 Re Men of the Cloth I have Father Pierre De Smet's 1841 book at home, "Report on the Flathead Indians" or some such title, most of which is a report to his bishop regarding his missionary efforts, but some of which is a description of the tribal customs he observed. Apparently he was fairly happy with his success with the Flatheads which he held in considerable affection. He does not see fit to include much personal reflections, but I recall reading somewhere that DeSmet was relatively "beloved" or at least respected by the trappers. I know there was a self-description of himself in his black robes but with his hair long after some time on the trail, possibly to increase his appeal to the Indians. I suspect that he had more personal humor and tolerance than the mountaineers expected from a Catholic Jesuit priest, and being French, may have liked his wine. Pat Quilter ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Pat Quilter" Subject: MtMan-List: Re Sign Language Date: 28 May 1998 11:32:57 -0700 Re Sign Language As many know, one of the requirements for membership in the AMM is to learn at least 50 words of Indian Sign Language. After a slow start, I made real progress with a friend during a several day outing, and found the signs coming pretty quickly, although they fade of course without practice. HOWEVER, imagine my disappointment to find that this sign language has almost nothing to do with ASL (American Sign Language for the deaf). Big disappointment! I hoped I was at least laying a foundation for a communication skill which might be useful in modern life. According to my friend, when ASL was designed around the turn of the century, Indian culture was in low repute and a deliberate attempt was made to avoid using their signs. DRAT! Pat Quilter ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jbrandl@wyoming.com (Joe Brandl) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horsehair dye Date: 28 May 1998 16:58:47 -0600 Ken, the note was from Me not Henry Joe Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken " Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horsehair dye Date: 28 May 1998 19:10:35 -0500 Thanks, my mistake. Sorry Henry! Ken ---------- > From: Joe Brandl > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horsehair dye > Date: Thursday, May 28, 1998 5:58 PM > > Ken, > the note was from Me not Henry > Joe > > Absaroka Western Designs and Tannery ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tedhart@juno.com (Ted A Hart) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horsehair dye Date: 28 May 1998 19:42:44 EDT What kind of movie is The Postman? Can I also ask why the horses were dyed? Ted P.S. If this is off subject email me privately at TedHart@juno.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horsehair dye Date: 28 May 1998 21:18:50 -0500 At 03:20 PM 5/27/98 Henry wrote: >I'm looking for a good way to dye horsehair, Native and/or modern.=A0 Any >suggestions? > >TIA, > >HBC > =93To Dye or Color Horse-Hair Steep in water wherein a small quantity of turpentine has been boiled for= the space of two hours; then, having prepared the colors very hot, boil the hair therein, and any color, black excepted, will take, but that will only take a dark-red or dark-blue, etc.=94 from MacKenzie, 1825 Red is made from powdered Brazil-wood, vermilion or anatto; blue from= Indigo; purple from vermilion and spalt; green verdigris and verditer. These were used with alum, vinegar, mordants, gum water and more. I have a great many receipts for dyeing, coloring and staining. I don't have enough time to ferret them all out and transcribe. Some good information on dyeing is available in Elijah Bemiss=92, 1806,= Dyer=92s Companion, reprinted by Dover, ISBN 0-486-20601-7, $6.50 printed on the back cover of my copy. Coal-tar colors are a post industrial revolution period. Our focus is pre-industrial revolution. They could be used in the same manner as listed above. Kool-Aid, Rit, et al,??????? REALLY NOW! It may be OK for Hollywood and fantasmagorical transmogrifications. But Mountain Men? John Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer kramer@kramerize.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bow and Arrows Date: 28 May 1998 23:39:48 EDT In a message dated 98-05-28 12:46:10 EDT, you write: << Dennis >> in reply to your coment when the spanarde came it was nnear modern times i beleave the atlata was an ancient tool. used befor the bow and arrow maby there were a few around. in the far north on the ice cap by escamos-spelling they were more stone age typ tool. i think i willingly stand corected if not so. iron tounge ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Egg Powder Date: 28 May 1998 23:46:33 EDT In a message dated 98-05-28 16:56:56 EDT, you write: << Addison Miller >> if you cook them you kill the bug iron tounge ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Phyllis and Don Keas Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Just tossing out an idea, ,would like some feedb Date: 26 May 1998 20:18:42 +0000 Yes, they used to have a voo in September at Bent's. Then they did some changes and one of them wqas no shooting. Thios from the big boys in DC. After the changes which were hard to swallow by most, the rendezvous was dropped. Now it is just living history events. DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS --- PROPRIETORS OF THE NADA TRADING COMPANY LODGEPOLE wrote: >In a message dated 98-05-26 20:16:56 EDT, you write: > ><< > Was at Bent's Fort a couple years ago and had a discussion about >whether or > > not they had any rendezvous there. > > That is strange...I remember some big events in the early fall at Bents Fort. > What ever happened to those. They started around 1980. > > Linda Holley >> > > > Dunno Linda, just know what they told me when I was there. > > Longshot > > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > >Received: from lists.xmission.com [198.60.22.7] by mail.market1.com > (SMTPD32-4.03) id A92EE80144; Tue, 26 May 1998 20:23:42 MDT >Received: from domo by lists.xmission.com with local (Exim 1.82 #1) > id 0yeVNN-0007eA-00; Tue, 26 May 1998 19:51:33 -0600 >Received: from (imo13.mx.aol.com) [198.81.17.35] > by lists.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) > id 0yeUzN-0006EK-00; Tue, 26 May 1998 19:26:45 -0600 >Received: from LODGEPOLE@aol.com > by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id ICALa29777 > for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 21:20:20 +2000 (EDT) >From: LODGEPOLE >Message-ID: <670f9244.356b6a55@aol.com> >Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 21:20:20 EDT >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Just tossing out an idea, would like some feedback >Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 >Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >X-UIDL: 891663536 >Status: U > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Branson" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Thanks! :) Date: 28 May 1998 22:46:36 -0500 I have never personally seen the spirit of the man who keeps walking up the stairs from the dining room down below but the spirit has been seen at least thrice that I know of by several people at three different times. The description of the spirit is always of a man dressed in a black suit with a white shirt and black tie. He walks up the stairs and disappears. M. Branson -----Original Message----- >Yes, well, looks like I will have to talk to the folks in Washington REAL nice >:) >Thanks ,all the input received was very useful. As to St. Vrain's room being >haunted...wow, by whom? Thought the poor man died a happy camper in Mora (one >too many cigars)..although brother Marcellin did committed suicide, but he is >buried way back in Ralls County Missouri... > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Powers Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bow and Arrows Date: 29 May 1998 03:59:11 -0500 Ken I use storebought broadheads on my darts On 1998-05-28 hist_text@lists.xmission.com said to kestrel@ticon.net >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-Priority: 3 >X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Sender: owner-hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Precedence: bulk >Status: >I don't know if this is historically correct or not but my atlatl >tips I used were larger than the points I made for my arrows. I >made mine of steel or stone or antler and made them longer and >usually 3/4 of an inch wide at the base. This seems to have given >me more cutting surface, which I consider the most important part. >I do know that the atlatl preceded the bow by centuries. Perhaps >one of our more learned members might have reference material on >this? YMOS, >ken YellowFeather >---------- >> Date: Thursday, May 28, 1998 9:43 AM >> Michael Pierce wrote: >> > >> > dont believe the statement about the arrow points and atlatal >>points > being the same size is totally correct. >> I guess what I'm getting at is whether or not the Indians were >>using bows during the pre Columbian times. Were they using >>strictly spears and atlatls? Were bows introduced with the >>Spanish Conquistadors like the horse? If anyone knows of a >>reference on the subject, I would appreciate it. >> Dennis Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bow and Arrows Date: 29 May 1998 00:03:53 EDT In a message dated 98-05-28 16:58:34 EDT, you write: << HAWKNEST4@JUNO.COM. >> do you know anthing about green willow tea or was some one was just pullin my leg ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horsehair dye Date: 29 May 1998 08:44:15 -0600 (CST) >Don't know if it would work on horse hair, but I suspect it would. The kids >at my school dye their hair with kool aid. They get really "interesting?" >reds and greens. > >Red Hawk I thought about food coloring and drink mixes, but they could be too easily diluted with water, which means they are no good in wet weather. That's only theoretical. If anyone has ever had good LONG TERM results, let me know. TIA HBC ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: mxhbc@TTACS.TTU.EDU (Henry B. Crawford) Subject: MtMan-List: News flash Date: 29 May 1998 11:06:04 -0600 (CST) The vermilion thief was finally apprehended this morning. They caught him red handed. :-) Hears-The-Quiet ***************************************** Henry B. Crawford Curator of History mxhbc@ttacs.ttu.edu Museum of Texas Tech University 806/742-2442 Box 43191 FAX 742-1136 Lubbock, TX 79409-3191 WEBSITE: http://www.ttu.edu/~museum ****** Living History . . . Because it's there! ******* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: seanbear Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Egg Powder Date: 29 May 1998 10:43:44 -0400 Not if you dry the mixture in the sun, it doesn't. Also, a temperature of at least 140 must be reached and maintained for 10 mins to kill salmonella... Or, the food must be washed in a 10% clorox solution... eggs (in the shells), veggies, etc... A dehydrator and "sun" does not reach these temps... -----Original Message----- >In a message dated 98-05-28 16:56:56 EDT, you write: > ><< Addison Miller >> >if you cook them you kill the bug iron tounge > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Mill, Kirk" Subject: MtMan-List: buckskinning Date: 29 May 1998 14:40:27 -0400 Hi, My name is Kirk Mill and I am looking for a buckskinning group in the SE Pennsylvania area. If you know of one, please give me a holler. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Glenn Darilek Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bow and Arrows Date: 29 May 1998 20:01:01 -0500 Ken wrote: > > I am afraid I will have to disagree with you both on "force". Maybe it is just semantics, but it IS the increased force that makes the atl-atl work. Otherwise you could throw the projectile with your arm only, which would be more accurate. I must commend you on your atl-atl skill. Hitting any game animal with any reliability at all at 25 yards is a truly amazing feat! Iron Burner ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lee Newbill Subject: MtMan-List: Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders 18th Annual Rendezvous (Idaho) Date: 29 May 1998 16:17:24 -0700 (PDT) Hog Heaven Muzzleloaders 18th Annual Rendezvous When: June 19-21 Where: 2 miles west of Troy, Idaho. Details: Events; 30 foot dugout canoes on display, trailwalk - Men, Women's and Juniors, Trapper's Run, Pistol Shoot, Kids Shhot - 12 and under, Stupid Conglomerated Shoot. Prizes awarded for the best dressed Male and Female and most primitive camp. Raffle for .54 cal Lyman Plains Rifle, 8 seats on a dugout canoe ride. Fees: Family $20, Couples $15, Individual $10, Non-shooters camp $10, Traders free with donation. More Info? Tom Fleming (208)882-8636, Vern Illi (208) 835-5872, Chris Lewis (208)835-8272 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: bruce.mcneal@ssa.gov Subject: RE: MtMan-List: buckskinning Date: 29 May 1998 15:36:00 -0500 Hey Kirk, Try the Lancaster Co. Longrifles. Contact Chuck & Jenny Eby at: They have a nice club site and a great annual rendezvous. Good folk. Tell them I said to take care of you. Yr Humbl & Obednt Servnt, Bruce McNeal -----Original Message----- Sent: Friday, May 29, 1998 2:40 PM Hi, My name is Kirk Mill and I am looking for a buckskinning group in the SE Pennsylvania area. If you know of one, please give me a holler. << File: RFC822.TXT >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tedhart@juno.com (Ted A Hart) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re Sign Language Date: 30 May 1998 00:19:51 EDT Actually half of ASL is derived from French Sign Language! Laurent Clerc travelled all the way from France to be one of the first deaf teachers before the "pro-deaf" movement was cut off by "pro-oral (speaking with lips and voice not hands)" hearing people. He taught what he knew and at the time alot of the signs had to be made up like the sign for president is symbolic of the tri horn hat the president used to wear at that time and that sign is still used today. If you go to France you'll understand half of the signs but you can learn faster becuase you already know half :) An interesting discussion going on here as I've heard frequently that American Indians could and would communicate with deaf people in the past more easily than non-Indians. I also have noticed some apparent similiar signs and am presently considering whether there's a good study/research subject in there somewhere. Ted _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tedhart@juno.com (Ted A Hart) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian Sign Language Date: 30 May 1998 00:19:51 EDT Uhhh...not to be rude or nothing but the word deaf mute is quite degrading to a deaf person becuase there aren't any such deaf mutes. We can use our voices but most deaf people can just use their voices to yell, scream, moan or whatnot but most of them can talk some but not too well while some cannot. That is an old old term that was used in the past and not so anymore nowdays. It's perfectly alright to call a deaf person deaf but also be careful becuase there are some deaf people who have become deaf thru accidents etc and deny that they are deaf. I had my head nearly bitten off by a woman who DEINED that she was deaf when she was wearing two hearing aids! I've also seen some deaf people who use "cued speech" an invented sign system by lazy hearing people (only 8 signs used with speech) who screamed and ran away from my friends and I at the mall when we greeted them in the mall! They were the ones looking stupid. Ted _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Egg Powder Date: 30 May 1998 00:24:21 EDT my dehydrator does. you still cook it you kill it. i mite come out like rubber thuogh. oron tounge ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: j2hearts@juno.com (john c funk,jr) Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Egg Powder Date: 30 May 1998 06:06:03 -0700 Paul, Why make it, other than for historical gratification (perhaps), when you can buy it from most backeries, store, etc.? John Funk _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:Davenport Rifle (Thanks) Date: 30 May 1998 13:54:00 -0700 (PDT) Just wanted to thank everyone who replied back and gave me information on the Davenport Rifle. I will pass it on to my sister so she can give it to her friend. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: zaslow Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re Sign Language Date: 30 May 1998 12:08:11 -0700 (PDT) Pat is absolutely right. I know ISL and enough ASL to get by and, with the exception of a few signs which are the same, they are almost completely unrelated. In fact, in deaf sign language there are ASL (American Sign Language), SSL (Spanish Sign Language), JSL (Japanese Sign Language), FSL (French Sign Language), etc. All are different. I believe in ISL there are different dialects depending on the tribe and region of the country. I know quite a bit about the topic because my wife is hearing impared and she got her degree in deaf studies. We also have a lot of deaf friends. Best Regards, Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 ________________________________________________________________________________ At 11:32 AM 5/28/98 -0700, you wrote: > Re Sign Language >As many know, one of the requirements for membership in the AMM is to learn at >least 50 words of Indian Sign Language. After a slow start, I made real progress >with a friend during a several day outing, and found the signs coming pretty quickly, >although they fade of course without practice. HOWEVER, imagine my >disappointment to find that this sign language has almost nothing to do with ASL >(American Sign Language for the deaf). Big disappointment! I hoped I was at >least laying a foundation for a communication skill which might be useful in >modern life. According to my friend, when ASL was designed around the turn of >the century, Indian culture was in low repute and a deliberate attempt was made >to avoid using their signs. DRAT! >Pat Quilter > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Gail Carbiener" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: tobacco... Date: 30 May 1998 20:21:36 -0700 To all: This got lost in never never land. Has any one ever tried this manzanita with tobacco mixture? Gail (learning to play a MM in living history) ============== -- >I have read that the mountain men used kinnikinnick, which I believe is a >low ground cover type of manzanita, as a mixture with tobacco. How did they >prepare the kinnikinnick, did they use the leaves, green or dried. Any idea >what the proportion was? And was it always used in pipes or did the mountain >men roll their own in paper or leaves. > >Gail > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Horsehair dye Date: 31 May 1998 02:54:14 EDT Hope this helps this is how I dye quills an deer tails - Find a large enough metal can ( that some one has thrown out) - Find a second metal can that will fit inside the first can - Punch some holes in the bottom of the second, smaller can - Use a metal coat hanger and make a bale for the second smaller can - Check Jean Heinbusch's quillworking book - Use her recipes for copying old time colors (using readily available commercial cloth dyes, like ritt) Use the 2 can set-up to first heat some water and wash the horse hair. Clean it with a little soap and water. I have heard of people using human shampoos, animal grooming shampoos, and yes even conditioners. Wash out the horse hair and the cans thoroughly. prepare your dye bath in the larger can. Use the smaller can with the handle to lower your horse hair into the dye bath. FOLLOW ALL DIRECTIONS ON THE LABEL OF THE DYE. Hey it's always worked for me. I always use a touch of white vinegar in my quill dye bath, thgis might help with the horse hair. I know you are not an idiot, but I did try to make the directions as clear as possible anyway. Also if you are dying a bunch of loose hair, do not use rubber bands. the hair will Tye dye. Use a good cotton cord to tie the bunches. The dye will soak through and the hair will dye evenly and of course feel free to send me some if it comes out particularly nice watch your topknot john ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Ken " Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bow and Arrows Date: 31 May 1998 03:08:28 -0500 Thanks for the compliment but I have friends who are better than I. I thought I stated out to 25 yards as my limit. As for deer I prefer to be no more than 20 feet which is not any real feat for someone who has stalking skills. Wolf Smither used to say my best skill was having the patience to sit in one spot for hours. At a rendezvous in Cache Valley in 1976 I laid down beside a hole and waited for hours for a large prairie dog to emerge so I could spear it. Wolf made the mistake of saying he would cook it for me! YMOS, Ken YellowFeather ---------- > From: Glenn Darilek > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bow and Arrows > Date: Friday, May 29, 1998 8:01 PM > > Ken wrote: > > > > I am afraid I will have to disagree with you both on "force". > > Maybe it is just semantics, but it IS the increased force that makes the > atl-atl work. Otherwise you could throw the projectile with your arm > only, which would be more accurate. I must commend you on your atl-atl > skill. Hitting any game animal with any reliability at all at 25 yards > is a truly amazing feat! > > Iron Burner ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Jeff Powers Subject: MtMan-List: Prairie Villa Rendezvous Date: 31 May 1998 07:16:53 -0500 Is anyone on the list going to Prairie du Chien,Wi for this ronnyvoo? also is anyone in S.Wis? Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Test Drive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Egg Powder Date: 31 May 1998 12:07:56 EDT In a message dated 98-05-30 10:25:27 EDT, you write: << j2hearts@juno.com (john c funk,jr) >> yes to that john------- iron tounge ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian Sign Language Date: 31 May 1998 12:07:55 EDT In a message dated 98-05-30 10:24:33 EDT, you write: << hist_text@lists.xmission.com >> arent we soposed to be old timy and use old terms excuse my termonalgy and my spelling deaf mute. iron tounge ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bow and Arrows Date: 31 May 1998 12:07:53 EDT In a message dated 98-05-30 10:23:35 EDT, you write: << llsi@texas.net (Glenn Darilek) >> not an amaseing feet with practace you can stand on your hands if you have ever shot a gun or bow 25yds is not so bad your right about being acurate. i yas once good with my sling shot not as good as my fiend who could smash a marble with another at not 25yds butt far as in more than 15 paces. as for force the extention fo a lever your arm and another the atlatl you had more force it must have been like landing on the moon when you could take game down with less trama to you and the game let alone the time it took and the more you could gather. it was ysed on the ice cap in our time. or may i say your dads time. they were pritty acurate. i belong to a club that makes our own alute skin boats and part of our lor is to use the atlatl. some of these guys are pretty good . as good to kill game at 25yds +we are not talking more than 50. and there was more game then less spooky. iron toung ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re Sign Language Date: 31 May 1998 12:07:57 EDT In a message dated 98-05-30 22:32:51 EDT, you write: << Jerry (Meriwether) Zaslow #1488 >> could you get back to me and give some more info indian sign its of intrest to me and apoligise for deaf mute coment. being i sad deaf mute . iron tounge