Thanks for yo= ur response to the list on the matter, it was most informative.

As always, YMHOS

Mike

----- Original Message -----

From: rtlahti

Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 10:06 PM<= /DIV>

To: hist_text@lists.xmission= .com

Subject: Re: MtMan-List= : water containers and compasses

<They ar= e manufactured in New York and the declination settings are different if = you intend on useing it out west.>

Mike,

Wou= ld you explain exactly what your referring to here?

It's = my understanding of the art that a simple hand held compass are not regul= ated as a shipboard compass might be. And then they are only balanced as = to the ship's tendency to deflect the compass from pointing to magnetic n= orth by the two "Black Balls" on either side of the compass housing. (Cal= led the Navigators Balls in my Navy BTW <G>) They work the sam= e way as the adjustment screws in the dashboard compass in your pickup. M= y Knights Modern Seamanship says there are two to four permanent magnets = in a magnetic compass and explains a bit on how they work but most simple= compass's do not have such magnets other than that which makes up the "n= eedle".

Those sundial compass's we get from the suttler that ar= e all brass have the sundial adjusted for a certain latitude by virtue of= the angle of the arm and to an extent by the location of the "time" nume= rals arranged around either side of "North". Any pocket compass and = most ship and airplane compass's I have seen always point cclose to magne= tic north if there is no other interference from surrounding metal or ele= ctromagnetic influences.

When navigating in any region of the = world, a proper navigation chart will show how much "variation angle"&nbs= p;exists at any point on the globe and by this number of degree's on= e makes an adjustment to the reading the compass actually shows. In my pa= rt of the world (Washington State) that variation is about 19 to 20 = degrees and in fact changes over time as the magnetic north pole moves ab= out and changes on the map as I travel around the state both east and wes= t and to the north and south.

= ;

Deviation is the angle betw= een the magnetic Meridian and the north to south axis of the compass card= . Adjusting for this so that the compass card points along the magnetic m= eridian is complicated and deviation varies with the ship's magnetic head= ing and with it's position on the earth. We don't need to worry about thi= s with the simple compasses we use but it is there and is further complic= ated by the compass error which is an algebraic sum of the variation and = deviation. My head is hurting already! <G>

So when I use = my sundial compass to determine the time, I simply allow the needle to po= int about that many degrees to the east of the compass's "N" and the time= is fairly close to actual. By the same token, this allows me to determin= e which direction "True North" is rather than just "magnetic" north. Got = to have that "adjustment" information first though, otherwise the compass= just shows me roughly which way is "Magnetic" north. Because magne= tic north is almost straight north of New York St. very little adjustment= is needed but as you travel farther east, more adjustment in the opposit= e direction would be required. (Magnetic North Pole is up around NE Canad= a or out towards Greenland as I recall, its been a while since I checked = <G>)

I enjoy having a compass with me and the more authenti= c to the period it is the better but as Crazy says, for the traveling we = normally do it's hardly necessary. Observation of the sun will give you "= close enough" during the day and knowing what to look for after dark will= let you find north in the absence of the sun. Other than those two indic= ators, a good knowledge of the lay of the land your running around in bef= ore you go out will usually suffice unless your crossing Mt. ranges and w= ide expanses of prairie. And I seriously doubt that the average trapper o= r trapping party carried one much less needed one. Aboriginal people get = along just fine without them just by familiarity and observation.
<= DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

Get more fro= m the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

- ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C1D53D.6B546960-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 00:13:00 EST From: JOAQUINQS@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses - --part1_9a.22f83e5a.29d2aedc_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If one reads the "Invoice of Sundry Merchandise from the Rocky Mountain Outfit 1836 under charge of Fontelle, Fitzpatrick, & Co." they list 6 brass compass. and another from "Invoice of Sundry Merchandise sold and delivered to the Missouri Company by Fr Regnier at St Louis" they also list 3 compases @ $.25 I have researched my gear and was once told read the inventories of the fur trade and it will give you an idea of what was available to the men, hence (for me at least ) the want of a compass. (just rambling on ) Frank Rambling on and on in Odessa Texas - --part1_9a.22f83e5a.29d2aedc_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If one reads the "Invoice of Sundry Merchandise from the Rocky Mountain Outfit 1836 under charge of Fontelle, Fitzpatrick, & Co." they list 6 brass compass.

and another from "Invoice of Sundry Merchandise sold and delivered to the Missouri Company by Fr Regnier at St Louis" they also list 3 compases @ $.25

I have researched my gear and was once told read the inventories of the fur trade and it will give you an idea of what was available to the men, hence (for me at least ) the want of a compass. (just rambling on )

Frank
Rambling on and on in Odessa Texas - --part1_9a.22f83e5a.29d2aedc_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 23:49:28 EST From: JOAQUINQS@aol.com Subject: MtMan-List: gourd canteen - --part1_12d.ec5bb8b.29d2a958_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This lining method and material may not be period but if you are concerned with bugs, bacteria and etc............this may be the way to go. I have used in lining various containers for customers Enviro-tex table top resin. It is an epoxy mixture that is food, alcohol and heat resistant. As someone stated in a previous post. Clean out the canteen whether it is tin, leather, gourd after everyuse and dry upside down, (I often put a rolled up paper towel in side to act as a moisture wick drawning out all moisture) and store WITHOUT the stopper. The resin is available at most hardware stores , Lowes, Home Depot, Ace Hardware and sometimes Wal-Mart. Hope this is helpful to someone. Frank - --part1_12d.ec5bb8b.29d2a958_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This lining method and material may not be period but if you are concerned with bugs, bacteria and etc............this may be the way to go.

I have used in lining various containers for customers Enviro-tex table top resin. It is an epoxy mixture that is food, alcohol and heat resistant. As someone stated in a previous post. Clean out the canteen whether it is tin, leather, gourd after everyuse and dry upside down, (I often put a rolled up paper towel in side to act as a moisture wick drawning out all moisture) and store WITHOUT the stopper. The resin is available at most hardware stores , Lowes, Home Depot, Ace Hardware and sometimes Wal-Mart.
Hope this is helpful to someone.
Frank - --part1_12d.ec5bb8b.29d2a958_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 12:51:40 EST From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses In a message dated 3/27/02 8:04:01 AM, amm1769@hotmail.com writes: << All good points and a fine technical explaination of what I said. The "deviation" term of which you speak is the same a "declination". >> Hmmm.... I hate to get into this but... "Declination" is the same as "Variation" and that is the angular difference between True north and Magnetic north. "Deviation" is an installation error of the compass, in other words a deflection of the compass needle due to magnetic influences, as in a ship (or plane). I have never heard of anyone trying to "compensate" a magnetic compass to read true north.... although, as has been so eloquently pointed out by the Capt, there is little to no "variation" on the East coast.... Any one remember the old "Can dead men vote twice" or "true virgins make dull company" when correcting from a compass reading to true, or from true to compass? Sorry....use to be a navigator in another time... Ymos, Magpie PS <> Haaaaa.... but I've been in 150' tall Douglas Fir forests where ya couldn't see straight up for miles.....and a GPS signal is blocked out...and there ain't no streams running to the Columbia...and you better have a compass to get yer butt back home.... - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 09:05:28 -0800 From: "rtlahti" Subject: MtMan-List: get your own Authentic Indian Name (TM) P.S. If you go to the website, don't forget to spin the wheels to get your own Authentic Indian Name (TM) (Dead Dog Caf� Comedy Hour, CBC Radio One; http://www.radio.cbc.ca/programs/deaddog/ ) Angela, Cute, real cute. Fun too, and no I am not going to tell you what my "authentic" Indian name is. It shall remain a closely guarded secret between me and the Great Maker. YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 08:56:10 -0800 From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C1D56D.3D658720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike, And thanks for explaining to me that deviation and declination are the = same thing. I may have known that at one time but.......well there's a = lot missing upstairs anymore. I wasn't aware that the high end = compass's like Silva, etc. came with provisions for adjustment. In = honesty, the only compasses I am familiar with are either rather simple = early 20th Cent. "scouting compasses) in brass or plastic and the simple = reproductions such as the all brass sundial compass we talked about and = the wood cased "Jefferson" compass and of course the much more = sophisticated shipboard and small plane compasses of my misspent young = adult life.=20 And thank you again for giving me the opportunity to refresh my memory = with a bit of research for our mutual benefit.=20 I agree with your assessment that having some basic orientation and map = skills, being able to use a compass and etc. are a valuable confidence = building skill for anyone. Some can keep themselves well oriented in = wilderness by an inborn sense of direction and others of us need a bit = of "civilized" help. I remain as always......... YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C1D56D.3D658720 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Mike,

And thanks for explaining to me that deviation = and=20 declination are the same thing. I may have known that at one time = but.......well=20 there's a lot missing upstairs anymore. <G> I wasn't aware that = the high=20 end compass's like Silva, etc. came with provisions for adjustment. In = honesty,=20 the only compasses I am familiar with are either rather simple early = 20th Cent.=20 "scouting compasses) in brass or plastic and the simple reproductions = such as=20 the all brass sundial compass we talked about and the wood cased = "Jefferson"=20 compass and of course the much more sophisticated shipboard and small = plane=20 compasses of my misspent young adult life.

And thank you again for giving me the = opportunity to=20 refresh my memory with a bit of research for our mutual benefit. =

I agree with your assessment that having some = basic=20 orientation and map skills, being able to use a compass and etc. are a = valuable=20 confidence building skill for anyone. Some can keep themselves well = oriented in=20 wilderness by an inborn sense of direction and others of us need a bit = of=20 "civilized" help. I remain as always.........

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'

- ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C1D56D.3D658720-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 21:18:32 -0500 From: "CrookedHand" Subject: MtMan-List: Early Virginia .54 Flint.. for sale Ryan McNabb custom built this for me this year with a Colerain swamped barrel, a Chambers Lock and brass furniture. It is 90%. I will provide pics and price off-list if you are interested. Mark "CrookedHand" Toigo http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/8699 http://www.alltel.net/~chand/ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 00:40:45 GMT From: hawknest4@juno.com Subject: Re:Re: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses you have to declinate a map to true north from magnetic north---basic map orentation and reading procedure--- hawk ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 16:24:36 -0800 From: "rtlahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses > Any one remember the old "Can dead men vote twice" or "true virgins make dull > company" when correcting from a compass reading to true, or from true to > compass? > Sorry....use to be a navigator in another time... Magpie, Seems that does ring a bell but I'm sure it was something like 45+ years back that I read it. Don't remember how to apply the phrases any more. Used to be a navigator? You better be one now if you ever expect me to fly with you! Anyway, thanks for the further clarifications. Kinda figured you'd have some input being closer to the craft as it were. There once was a time when I think I understood what I thought I knew. Now I'm not so sure that what I thought I knew is what I can't remember. The whole subject of magnetic and compass's is much more complicated than I recall, as I found out when I went to re-reading my references. Glad there isn't going to be a test. Those 150 foot fir trees will give a fella pause if he didn't bring a compass. Kinda dark in there at high noon too! YMOS Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 17:38:13 -0600 From: Jim Lindberg Subject: Re: MtMan-List: get your own Authentic Indian Name (TM) Bet it wasn't as bad as my son's name, didn't know indians new what pizza was! B^) - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 14:18:55 -0900 From: "Dawn Beck" Subject: MtMan-List: #114 Newhouse This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1D59A.54149740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, just a quick note following up Morgan's question on the Newhouse = #114. The Newhouse #114 is a wolf trap used in Alaska & Canada. It was = also used as a small blackbear trap in the East. Thanks JR Pederson, = Fairbanks Alaska. - ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1D59A.54149740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello, just a quick note = following up=20 Morgan's question on the Newhouse #114. The Newhouse #114 is a = wolf trap=20 used in Alaska & Canada. It was also used as a small blackbear = trap in=20 the East. Thanks JR Pederson, Fairbanks=20 Alaska.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1D59A.54149740-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 18:22:34 EST From: SWcushing@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: get your own Authentic Indian Name (TM) In a message dated 3/27/02 2:30:33 PM, rtlahti@msn.com writes: << Cute, real cute. Fun too, and no I am not going to tell you what my "authentic" Indian name is. >> Hey.....! My name came out to be "OH-GREAT-MAGPIE".....how can that be!!!!?! O.G. Magpie - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 15:59:54 -0700 From: "John L. Allen" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses FYI, Magpie, Interesting thread --- I'm not exactly certain what you mean by "'compensate' a magnetic compass" but Brunton compasses (or "pocket transits" if you prefer) have a built-in declination adjustment. You can actually set the compass for a specific declination (you can tell what the declination is for the area you are in by looking at a USGS topo sheet for that area) so that the north reading on the compass will be true, not magnetic north. This system used by Brunton was in use as early as the 18th century and was available on the compass carried by Lewis and Clark. One of the observations that Jefferson had asked them to make was on changing "variations" of the compass as they moved from east to west across the continent. They were able to do this because the elaborate astronomical observations they made nightly (weather permitting) gave them reckonings for true north--which they could compare with their compass reading to get the angular degree of declination. John Dr. John L. Allen 2703 Leslie Court Laramie, WY 82072-2979 Phone: (307) 742-0883 Fax: (307) 742-0886 e-mail: jlallen@wyoming.com - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 10:51 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: water containers and compasses > > In a message dated 3/27/02 8:04:01 AM, amm1769@hotmail.com writes: > > << All good points and a fine technical explaination of what I said. The > "deviation" term of which you speak is the same a "declination". >> > > Hmmm.... I hate to get into this but... "Declination" is the same as > "Variation" and that is the angular difference between True north and > Magnetic north. "Deviation" is an installation error of the compass, in other > words a deflection of the compass needle due to magnetic influences, as in a > ship (or plane). > I have never heard of anyone trying to "compensate" a magnetic compass to > read true north.... although, as has been so eloquently pointed out by the > Capt, there is little to no "variation" on the East coast.... > > Any one remember the old "Can dead men vote twice" or "true virgins make dull > company" when correcting from a compass reading to true, or from true to > compass? > Sorry....use to be a navigator in another time... > > Ymos, > Magpie > > PS < find north shouldn't be let out of the house.">> > Haaaaa.... but I've been in 150' tall Douglas Fir forests where ya couldn't > see straight up for miles.....and a GPS signal is blocked out...and there > ain't no streams running to the Columbia...and you better have a compass to > get yer butt back home.... > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 15:17:10 -0800 From: JW Stephens Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Canteens Exxxcelllent, Mr. Burner, sir. B'st'rd > Glenn Darilek wrote: > > Now that several have stepped into the trap . . . > > I quote from the primary source of the notes of Alfred Jacob Miller: > > "The time is near sunset, -squads are > leaving the main band, and rushing for the water, -thirst is > overpowering, and human nature can stand it no longer; -there > is a general stampede among the horseman; -the team drivers > being compelled to remain, headed by our Captain, who would > not move a jot from his usual walk, although he had been > smoking for the last 3 hours to relieve this inexorable > craving;. . . The question may be asked, why we did not take > water along with us? The answer is, that it would have been > an innovation on established custom. Nobody did any such > thing, -it was looked on as effeminate, to say nothing of the > ridicule and rough jests with which the reformer would be > pelted.� > > Glenn Darilek > > Iron Burner - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #1011 ******************************** - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.