From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1175 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Tuesday, March 25 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1175 In this issue: -       Re: MtMan-List: Documentation -       Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth -       Re: MtMan-List: Documentation -       Re: MtMan-List: Documentation -       Re: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper -       Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery -       Re: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper -       MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #1174 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 21:43:43 -0600 From: "James MacKannai" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation Let's face it, without the records and evidence, sometimes known as documentation, we wouldn't know anything about the past. Even the 1970's would not be understood by those born later, without documentation (or communication of some sort outside of experience). Personally, I'm not so attached to any myth that I would sacrifice reality at it's altar. As has been noted, different people have different reasons for even being involved in studying the past. I want to know what was really there. If I want myth, I'll watch television. It gets real when it's below freezing and the wind is howling fifty miles per hour. It gets pretty real when you're on the top of a mountain and you get sick as a dog. The world of the mountain men is still there and it is still real (for now). Since I love to study anyway, I apply my efforts toward experiencing what's left over as near as I can. I've heard the objections before and realize that you can't take the memories of automoblies and hardtop and everything that goes along with that cursed beast, out of my head. Of all people, I know the shortcomings of trying to do what I'm trying to do. I've tried to stop. I've tried to fit in the present. It doesn't work very well. My mind wanders and I get restless and as soon as I stop to smell the sagebrush I feel the pull again. I've given up trying to resist trying. I don't care if someone wears chrome tanned buckskins to rendezvous. It's easy to like a guy that will dress in leather, even if it is chrome tan. I'm willing to bet that whatever he's trying to achieve is very satisfying to him. But I want more. I want it exact. I realize it is impossible to achieve what I want, but if I were to quit trying because it is impossible, what would I do with my life? So I study. When I learn something new, I wear it out. I've heard so many opinions. Opinions are a starting point, therefore they are important; like the theories of electricity and refrigeration discussed in the 18th century. Without the discussions and the opinions and the theories, America would be a very different place. Without the opinions expressed here on this site, our understanding of our past would be a very different thing; but documentation is the root and the core and the foundation of our ability to begin truly understanding our past. When I ask where information comes from, I'm asking "for what reason do you believe this information enough to give it to me as a fact". I'd love it if I could always get a source so I could explore it for other information that seems to hang and linger with such tidbits of recorded history. My purpose is not to challenge anyone's authority or knowledge. I just want to learn. So, documentation has varying degrees of importance to different people. To me, it's very important. I'm not going to write a book. I'm not going to change the world. It's just nice to know that when I start a fire, I'm doing it like the men George Ruxton knew. When I trap a beaver, I'm using the same type of equipment Jim Bridger used. When my horse stomps in the night at the end of his picket rope, I'm hearing the same sounds. When I'm curled up in a buffalo robe, I can open my eyes and see the same stars Jed Smith saw and admired. I've been so thirsty my tongue felt like a piece of wood as it moved against lips that had no feeling. My feet have been frozen. I use a gun that become obsolete a century ago. I'm willing to accept the discomfort, I'm willing to be made fun of, I'm willing to be ridiculed, but I'm not willing to only half try. I'm not satisfied with "maybe" if it's possible to "know". So, there is more than you wanted to know. But maybe this will help you understand why I ask so many questions. This is my vision quest; it is my life. I tend to believe that on this site I'm not alone in the way I feel, though I realize not everyone feels this way, or even understands. Just because it's impossible isn't any reason not to try. Jim _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 19:57:05 -0800 From: "Two Bears Kelsey" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth LOL Two Bears :) Let's blame it on them French trappers!!! They must be the one's that got it started. Ben I will go along with that, history has proven that they aint never done anything right !!!! "Two Bears" - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 23:17:45 EST From: GazeingCyot@cs.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation - --part1_78.3ba18e9e.2bb283e9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim I would like to say, That was well said and a good way at looking at things. When a person stops looking for documentation and do research that is when there growth stops also. When one takes this knowledge they have gained by research out in to the filed and puts it to use that is one more step in the understanding of what it was like. Some times we cannot do things like they did just because of the world we live in today. But it still rewarding to try and put your self in their Mocs as close as we can today. I commend you on your thirst for knowledge and understanding. See down the trail Crazy Cyot - --part1_78.3ba18e9e.2bb283e9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jim
I would like to say, That was well said and a good way at looking at thi= ngs. When a person stops looking for documentation and do research that is w= hen there growth stops also. When one takes this knowledge they have gained=20= by research out in to the filed and puts it to use that is one more step in=20= the understanding of what it was like. Some times we cannot do things like t= hey did just because of the world we live in today. But it still rewarding t= o try and put your self in their Mocs as close as we can today. I commend yo= u on your thirst for knowledge and understanding.  
See down the trail
Crazy Cyot

- --part1_78.3ba18e9e.2bb283e9_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 21:24:58 -0700 (MST) From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Documentation >Jim, As a modern trapper in love with our history and heritage I understand exactly how you feel. However I don't think we should trap exactly as Bridger did. Our modern methods are much, much more humane than in the fur trade era. I've said it before and I'll say again, we must use modern methods when trapping these critters we love. It is our duty as sportsmen and true hunters to give the animals we hunt and trap the quickest and most humane death possible. I hunt with a fusee, is it obsolete? Is any gun that can kill with one shot obsolete? No. I've often laid down at night under the stars on primitive treks and thought how the Mountain Men would have laughed at us actually wanting to be miserable like they had to be. They would have been the first to buy rubber waist high boots, wire etc... But that's not why we do it. We do it smell the same air and see the same stars and feel the same frost, like you said. Happy Trails to you. bb > Let's face it, without the records and evidence, sometimes known as > documentation, we wouldn't know anything about the past. Even the 1970's > would not be understood by those born later, without documentation (or > communication of some sort outside of experience). > > Personally, I'm not so attached to any myth that I would sacrifice > reality at it's altar. As has been noted, different people have > different reasons for even being involved in studying the past. I want > to know what was really there. If I want myth, I'll watch television. > It gets real when it's below freezing and the wind is howling fifty > miles per hour. It gets pretty real when you're on the top of a > mountain and you get sick as a dog. The world of the mountain men is > still there and it is still real (for now). Since I love to study > anyway, I apply my efforts toward experiencing what's left over as near > as I can. > > I've heard the objections before and realize that you can't take the > memories of automoblies and hardtop and everything that goes along with > that cursed beast, out of my head. Of all people, I know the > shortcomings of trying to do what I'm trying to do. I've tried to stop. > I've tried to fit in the present. It doesn't work very well. My mind > wanders and I get restless and as soon as I stop to smell the sagebrush > I feel the pull again. I've given up trying to resist trying. > > I don't care if someone wears chrome tanned buckskins to rendezvous. > It's easy to like a guy that will dress in leather, even if it is > chrome tan. I'm willing to bet that whatever he's trying to achieve is > very satisfying to him. But I want more. I want it exact. > > I realize it is impossible to achieve what I want, but if I were to quit > trying because it is impossible, what would I do with my life? So I > study. When I learn something new, I wear it out. > > I've heard so many opinions. Opinions are a starting point, therefore > they are important; like the theories of electricity and refrigeration > discussed in the 18th century. Without the discussions and the opinions > and the theories, America would be a very different place. Without the > opinions expressed here on this site, our understanding of our past > would be a very different thing; but documentation is the root and the > core and the foundation of our ability to begin truly understanding our > past. > > When I ask where information comes from, I'm asking "for what reason do > you believe this information enough to give it to me as a fact". I'd > love it if I could always get a source so I could explore it for other > information that seems to hang and linger with such tidbits of recorded > history. My purpose is not to challenge anyone's authority or > knowledge. I just want to learn. > > So, documentation has varying degrees of importance to different people. > To me, it's very important. I'm not going to write a book. I'm not > going to change the world. It's just nice to know that when I start a > fire, I'm doing it like the men George Ruxton knew. When I trap a > beaver, I'm using the same type of equipment Jim Bridger used. When my > horse stomps in the night at the end of his picket rope, I'm hearing > the same sounds. When I'm curled up in a buffalo robe, I can open my > eyes and see the same stars Jed Smith saw and admired. > > I've been so thirsty my tongue felt like a piece of wood as it moved > against lips that had no feeling. My feet have been frozen. I use a gun > that become obsolete a century ago. I'm willing to accept the > discomfort, I'm willing to be made fun of, I'm willing to be ridiculed, > but I'm not willing to only half try. I'm not satisfied with "maybe" if > it's possible to "know". > > So, there is more than you wanted to know. But maybe this will help you > understand why I ask so many questions. This is my vision quest; it is > my life. I tend to believe that on this site I'm not alone in the way I > feel, though I realize not everyone feels this way, or even > understands. Just because it's impossible isn't any reason not to try. > > Jim > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 21:32:21 -0700 From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper Mr Miles Are you sure that it is not that rum makes your copper taste funny not the other way around. Through careful testing over a couple days time I have found that rum can change many things that seemed to be quite impermeable. Indeed I have heard that it can cause one horse to turn into two or three. Wynn Ormond - ----- Original Message ----- From: Double Edge Forge To: Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 8:02 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper > And copper makes yer rum taste funny afer a couple a days...... > > D > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "roger lahti" > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2003 10:00 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper > > > > Tin has been used to line copper and brass cooking vessels for hundreds of > > years and still is in the middle east and Asia. Copper itself is not that > > poisonous. Your here after all. But acidic foods probably should not > be > > cooked in copper or brass untinned pots. Otherwise there really is not > much > > danger and certainly even less in a tin lined pot. > > > > Plumbers solder is now lead free. It's bought as "Lead Free Silver Bearing > > Solder". > > > > YMOS > > Capt. Lahti' > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 21:32:27 -0700 From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery All of this talk about identifying tracks has missed another important difference. Dogs tend to trot a lot and cats are more inclined to walk. It pays to try to put together what the animal is doing. If you find yourself tracking a wolf that appears to be traveling with a horse I bet you got the wrong critter. I know that is not the question at hand but just an example to illistrate how looking at the bigger picture can change things. To our scouter who is going to be tracking in the mud, be aware that mud can contain tracks of things like racoons and muskrats. You may have more studying to do. Once you start looking your going to find tracks that arnt in the mud and a whole new world is going to open up. Suddenly you are going to find out that places that do not have tracks are the exception and tracks are the rule. Good Hunting Wynn Ormond - ----- Original Message ----- From: Samuel Keller To: Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 6:45 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery > There ia an online site with excellent drawings of > Animal Tracks. It is at > http://www.bear-tracker.com/mammals.html > > Sleeping Bear > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! > http://platinum.yahoo.com > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:31:51 -0800 From: "Two Bears Kelsey" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper Indeed I have heard that it can cause one horse to turn into two or three. Wynn Ormond I heard a story about this guy that because of the devil rum thought somebody cut his horses head off and he had to keep his hand over the hole where the head was so his horse wouldn't bleed to death on the way home. "Two Bears" - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 21:51:16 -0700 From: "marlene" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #1174 How do you get off this list. WE aren't reading right now. marlene@infomagic.net - ----- Original Message ----- From: "hist_text-digest" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 8:34 PM Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1174 > > hist_text-digest Tuesday, March 25 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1174 > > > > In this issue: > > - Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > - Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery > - Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > - Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > - MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth > - Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery > - Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth > - Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery > - Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth > - Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > - Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth > - Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > - Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > - Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery > - Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > - Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth > - Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth > - Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > - Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > - Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > - Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery > - Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth > - Re: MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry fullstock? > - MtMan-List: Hairy Lizard > - Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > - MtMan-List: Re: Gun Cleaning in the Mtns > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 16:20:01 -0500 > From: hawknest4@juno.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > > blood > can't give you the references but somewhere i found a ref of packing > materials being used that was tow---similar to as we us using paper or > the plastic popcorn things today---could it be they used this packing or > tow for cleaning and it not being highly listed because of this---how was > glass packed or other things that could be damaged or broken---dont find > much documentation in this area---as you know they would utilized > anything they had available such as tow. > > just a pasing thought in your conversating--sorry to but in--- > YMHOS > hawk > > ________________________________________________________________ > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 18:34:54 EST > From: FSLark@aol.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery > > - --part1_3d.2da2ca47.2bb2419e_boundary > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > In a message dated 3/25/03 11:49:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, > flintlocknfur@hotmail.com writes: > > > We were talking Cat an wolf, not Dog. when assesing a track using our > > standards as to reliability the only sure way to be sure it is not a cat > > (were talking 200lb+ lion here) Is to see the presence of claw marks. Size > > is not a good indicator, but few dogs with 4-5 inch tracks will be found > > traveling in a group far away from a road. > > > > > I believe I must respectfully disagree with this statement. The shape of ALL > cat tracks is noticeably different from ALL dog tracks. The charactaristics > described in my earlier post hold true. I have tracked many cats, bobcats, > dogs, and coyotes. I even observed a Florida panther's tracks. No wolves in > Florida to track. I even have plaster castes of many ot there tracks. The > claw marks are not the clear indicator so many think they are. As I stated > earlier, I have seen claw marks in feline tracks. I am not alone in my > assessment. Check the Halfpeny book I cited earlier as well as Olaus Murie's > field guide to animal tracks and any of the other books out there. > Frank > > - --part1_3d.2da2ca47.2bb2419e_boundary > Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > =3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 3/25/03 11:49:52 AM Eastern Standar= > d Time, flintlocknfur@hotmail.com writes:
>
>
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">We were talking Cat an wolf, no= > t Dog. when assesing a track using our
> standards as to reliability the only sure way to be sure it is not a cat > > (were talking 200lb+ lion here) Is to see the presence of claw marks. Size <= > BR> > is not a good indicator, but few dogs with 4-5 inch tracks will be found > > traveling in a group far away from a road.
>
>

> I believe I must respectfully disagree with this statement.  The shape=20= > of ALL cat tracks is noticeably different from ALL dog tracks.  The cha= > ractaristics described in my earlier post hold true. I have tracked many cat= > s, bobcats, dogs, and coyotes.  I even observed a Florida panther's tra= > cks.  No wolves in Florida to track.  I even have plaster castes o= > f many ot there tracks.  The claw marks are not the clear indicator so=20= > many think they are.  As I stated earlier, I have seen claw marks in fe= > line tracks.  I am not alone in my assessment.  Check the Halfpeny= > book I cited earlier as well as Olaus Murie's field guide to animal tracks=20= > and any of the other books out there. 
> Frank > > - --part1_3d.2da2ca47.2bb2419e_boundary-- > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 17:03:21 -0700 > From: Charlie P Webb > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > > Tow is the waste product of processing flax to be spun into linen thread. > Old Coyote > > > > > > > > -. Maybe tow > > > is something other > > > than what we think it is. > > > > Tow was used as packing material-basically the > > "peanuts" of the day. This could be why it's not > > mentioned often in trade lists. > > > > ===== > > "It is much easier to be critical than to be correct"...Disrael > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your > > desktop! > > http://platinum.yahoo.com > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 17:01:04 -0700 > From: Charlie P Webb > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > > Tow is the waste product of processing flax to be spun into thread. > Old Coyote > > > > -. Maybe tow > > > is something other > > > than what we think it is. > > > > Tow was used as packing material-basically the > > "peanuts" of the day. This could be why it's not > > mentioned often in trade lists. > > > > ===== > > "It is much easier to be critical than to be correct"...Disrael > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your > > desktop! > > http://platinum.yahoo.com > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: > > http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 18:47:55 -0600 > From: "James MacKannai" > Subject: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth > > Capt. > > I figured out why L&C never had much cloth left at the end of their jaunt; > they used it up making char cloth! > > What do you think? > > Jim > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 18:18:55 -0700 (MST) > From: > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery > > > You'll notice that I didn't even mention claw marks. I often see dog > > tracks without claw marks and have seen cat tracks with claw marks > > before. Frank > > This would be the exception Frank. As I said early just go look at a > house cat tracks and see how many of them have claw marks. An > experienced trapper/tracker can tell the difference between cat and > canine tracks at a glance. > I seldom ever see claw marks on cat tracks and of course their shape > is quite different than a canines. > To try and explain the difference in tracks on the enternet or over > the phone is nearly impossible. That is why I told him to make a > plaster cast or take some very clear photos with something to show > the scale and show it to an experienced tracker. If they are clear > prints/photos he'll be able to tell them what they are in a second. > Most people with limited tracking skills have no idea what tracks > they are looking at or what a fresh track is. Most don't even notice > half the sign that is around them. > Respectfully, > bb > > > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 18:43:33 -0700 (MST) > From: > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth > > > Capt. > > > > I figured out why L&C never had much cloth left at the end of their > > jaunt; they used it up making char cloth! > > > > What do you think? > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 17:45:18 -0800 (PST) > From: Samuel Keller > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery > > There ia an online site with excellent drawings of > Animal Tracks. It is at > http://www.bear-tracker.com/mammals.html > > Sleeping Bear > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! > http://platinum.yahoo.com > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 18:54:25 -0700 (MST) > From: > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth > > > I figured out why L&C never had much cloth left at the end of their > > jaunt; they used it up making char cloth! > > Jim, > They probably traded it for roots, salmon and sex. Which would you > rather have? A warm fire, warm bedmate or a full belly? That fire at > Clatsop never went out I bet,ever. > bb > > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 18:59:09 -0700 (MST) > From: > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > > I can't get enough of seeing through the eyes of the trappers > > and I want to see what they saw as near as I can. > > Wait till you see a pile of dead beaver on the floor and know that no > one is going to help you skin and stretch them. After a few nights of > skinning till midnight you'll have seen enough. That's another reason > so many of them trappers started trading for them pelts. > bb > > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:03:36 -0600 > From: "James MacKannai" > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth > > >From: > >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >To: > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth > >Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 18:54:25 -0700 (MST) > > > > > > > I figured out why L&C never had much cloth left at the end of their > > > jaunt; they used it up making char cloth! > > > > Jim, > > They probably traded it for roots, salmon and sex. Which would you > >rather have? A warm fire, warm bedmate or a full belly? That fire at > >Clatsop never went out I bet,ever. > > bb > > Beaverboy, > > Me and Jed Smith would just say a little prayer that ya'll didn't catch > somethin' from them squaws. (I was just kidding about the used up clothing > being used as char cloth). I am thinking that a few years of research will > provide an answer to the char cloth thing. Till I know better I'm going to > get into punk (not the blue hair kind neeeether). Ketch any beaver today? > > Jim > > > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:02:43 -0800 > From: John Kramer > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > > Some folks are talking like it takes 100 yards of cloth a year just to make > char. I will repeat for them what can't read that I've been working on the > same scrap of linen for more than 20 years. That includes many > demonstrations of lighting a candle direct from char (which takes lots more > than simply starting a fire) plus what I used to light what was a heavy > tobacco habit. It only takes a tiny dab if you are doing it right. > > The point of what we (The AMM) do is to learn from the doing. Too many > only want to learn what they can read about, doing takes too much effort. > > Documentation is a useful place to start learning, but, we are not hampered > by the "if-it-ain't-wrote-down-three-times-somewhere -- it ain't" problem > that reenactors enjoy. > > It is more important to learn how to make fire; no matter what you don't > have; than to worry about whether someone (back then) wrote something > specific to answer a question the old timers would have considered a waste > of good paper and ink. > > I have mentioned moss and lamp wicks, the Capt mentions cottonwood, several > others have spoken of fungus, rotted wood of various descriptions (I do > wonder where they found sugar maple in the Rockies?), and other combustible > stuff that can be charred enough to catch a spark. The inner bark of cedar > works well, the inner bark of palm trees in LA is spectacular tinder. Rope > can be used, there is a lot more other stuff that can be used. > > Learn to make do with what is currently at hand, that's what they had to > work with, sometimes cloth, sometimes not. Live with it. > > The silly little idea that they were too frightened to gather stuff for > fire is ludicrous. If they were that scared there was no need for a fire. > > John... > > > At 09:17 AM 3/25/03, you wrote: > >There are cotton wood trees all along almost any stretch of water way you > >can think of in that part of the world. And it's hardly necessary to have > >"brush" to get a fire considering that the under duff from buffalo grass > >makes excellent tinder and let's not forget buffalo dung for fires even in > >the absence of wood in any form. > > > >YMOS > >Capt. Lahti' > > Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. > John Kramer > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 19:07:44 -0700 (MST) > From: > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > > Do you know > > what else was used as packaging material? > > Jim, I've seen sawdust and shreaded wood used as packing material. > > > I have a theory that the "eared caps" seen as drawn by > > Miller could easily be made by pulling a bag over the head and cutting > > a face hole. The ears would form much like the "ears" seen on a pillow > > case. > > Jim, I'm sure you are correct on this one. I'm sure they were just old > flour sacks too. It was only a buckskinner with too much time on his > hands that made the super stylish wolf eared hats we see today. > bb > > > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 18:07:07 -0800 > From: "Two Bears Kelsey" > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery > > There ia an online site with excellent drawings of > Animal Tracks. It is at > http://www.bear-tracker.com/mammals.html > > Sleeping Bear > > > Thanks for the lead to this site, it will be really handy as I was looking > for a place to get different animal tracks for leather tooling patterns. > "Two Bears" > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:11:33 -0600 > From: "James MacKannai" > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > > >From: > >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > >To: > >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > >Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 18:59:09 -0700 (MST) > > > > I can't get enough of seeing through the eyes of the trappers > > > and I want to see what they saw as near as I can. > > > > Wait till you see a pile of dead beaver on the floor and know that no > >one is going to help you skin and stretch them. After a few nights of > >skinning till midnight you'll have seen enough. That's another reason > >so many of them trappers started trading for them pelts. > > bb > > Beaverboy, > > If it is within your power to curse me back to 1829 and put a pile of beaver > at my feet and Jim Bridger across the fire dryin' his moccasins while I > skin, you just curse yourself silly. > > Jim > > > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 18:11:15 -0800 > From: "Two Bears Kelsey" > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth > > Me and Jed Smith would just say a little prayer that ya'll didn't catch > somethin' from them squaws > > Problem was that the "Squaws" are the ones that caught the diseases from the > white men !!! "Two Bears" > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 19:15:25 -0700 (MST) > From: > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth > > > Ketch any beaver today? > > > > Jim > > Didn't check them today. I had to work, as usual. Went to Billings, MT. > Crossed over the Sun, Missouri, Judith, Musselshell, and Yellowstone > all in a day,...twice. Wouldn't Colter been jealous. Saw my first > Sandhill Cranes. Must be spring. > Last week I saw thousands of snow geese on a huge marsh where I trap > rats. So many of them it looked like an ice jam out there. > Checking traps tomorrow and moving some around. Did get a nice 40 > pounder yesterday. I'm not real fired up about this spring season. I'll > only take 10-20 and call it quits. > bb > > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: 25 Mar 2003 18:23:46 -0800 > From: "Curtis Krouse" > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > > Hawk, > > Butt in all you want bro.....this is a list that was made for people to > butt in. > > I think that tow might work for cleaning unless you have a rifle gun. > Rifle's cleaning patches need to be a size that will allow a cleaning > jag to get down the bore and back up without falling off the jag and > tight enough to clean the grooves. > > I think the whole jist of the discussion was about documentation of > things. My opinion about documentation is this: it's fine for people > to draw conclusions from documentation. But, when we start becoming so > anal retentive that we believe that it didn't exist unless it was > documented, then we fail to understand the fragile nature of > documentation. Anyone who has written a journal or diary should realize > the truth of not being able to accurately depict ones life by the pen. > There were plenty of things that were ordinary everyday things that one > would never even think to put in a journal. For example....If I lived > in the colonies for years and grew up in the colonies, it would be a > total assumption that people used char cloth to light things with. Once > I got out into the field, I would never mention that. It would be like > someone today mentioning the fact that they used a butane lighter to > light their pipe or cigarette. They would simply state...I lit my pipe, > or I used my lighter. Now....if I wrote down that I used my lighter and > 200 years from now, someone was tasked with interpreting just exactly > what I meant by "lighter", how many interpretations do you think that we > could come up with? Let's see.....there's flint and steel with a piece > of char cloth, there's a Zippo lighter, there's a Bic lighter, there are > kitchen matches, there are book matches, there are custom made lighters > that are piezoelectric, there are all kinds of freakin' lighters. > > I propose that for people to assume that the trapper's favorite way to > light a fire was through flint and steel using char cloth is fine, but > to say that they didn't use char cloth, or char wood, or two sticks, or > a hot coal is craziness really. They used them all. I was not trying > to propose that they used only char cloth.....and I'm sure that Capt > Lahti was not trying to say that they used only char wood. I think it's > pretty clear that they used whatever was convenient.....and you know > why? Because it's human nature to use whatever is convenient and put > off using the more labor intensive stuff until you have to. And I'm > sure that is what they did. > > Let me ask the list this. Can someone show me documentation that the > mountain man even cleaned his gun at all? Can someone show me on a list > of trade goods that they provided screwdrivers and tools to the indians > to clean their guns? Can someone show documentation in a journal that > they ever cleaned a gun period? I'm sure that cleaning guns was a > common occurance. Or was it? > > Blood > > On Wed, 2003-03-26 at 13:20, hawknest4@juno.com wrote: > > blood > > can't give you the references but somewhere i found a ref of packing > > materials being used that was tow---similar to as we us using paper or > > the plastic popcorn things today---could it be they used this packing or > > tow for cleaning and it not being highly listed because of this---how was > > glass packed or other things that could be damaged or broken---dont find > > much documentation in this area---as you know they would utilized > > anything they had available such as tow. > > > > just a pasing thought in your conversating--sorry to but in--- > > YMHOS > > hawk > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > > Only $9.95 per month! > > Visit www.juno.com > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: 25 Mar 2003 18:34:36 -0800 > From: "Curtis Krouse" > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > > I don't know where anyone got the impression that I said the traders > were too scared to leave camp. That is just a result of someone not > really reading what was written. > > This is the exact quote from my first email: > "Now, if I were in the mountains, loaded with company goods, I certainly > would NOT stray from camp in hostile territory to find fungus, burnt > trees, or any other substance to start the fire with. I'd be using the > reams of cloth that I had at my disposal." > > I don't know how the particular individual who replied to that email got > that I was saying that the traders where too scared to wander from > camp. This is just another indication of people not reading the entire > thread of a conversation and assuming things from what they are > reading. If we in our modern civilization can't seem to communicate > things how can we read things that were written 200 years ago and derive > conclusions that are accurate. The fact is...we all have opinions...and > they are just that...opinions. The only facts that really exist are in > museums and in the actual journals themselves....not what we interpret > them to mean. > > Blood > > > > > The silly little idea that they were too frightened to gather stuff for > > fire is ludicrous. If they were that scared there was no need for a fire. > > > > John... > > > > > > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: 25 Mar 2003 18:36:56 -0800 > From: "Curtis Krouse" > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > > I agree John, > > I've been working on the same yard of material for 10 years. And I used > to smoke a pipe. It takes a long time to use up a yard of char > cloth....a long time. It definitely is not something that can't be > carried around and definitely wasn't something that was too expensive to > have. > > Blood > > On Tue, 2003-03-25 at 20:02, John Kramer wrote: > > Some folks are talking like it takes 100 yards of cloth a year just to make > > char. I will repeat for them what can't read that I've been working on the > > same scrap of linen for more than 20 years. That includes many > > demonstrations of lighting a candle direct from char (which takes lots more > > than simply starting a fire) plus what I used to light what was a heavy > > tobacco habit. It only takes a tiny dab if you are doing it right. > > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 21:43:07 EST > From: FSLark@aol.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Trapline Mystery > > - --part1_1a1.1254517f.2bb26dbb_boundary > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > In a message dated 3/25/03 8:20:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, > beaverboy@sofast.net writes: > > > This would be the exception Frank. As I said early just go look at a > > house cat tracks and see how many of them have claw marks. An > > experienced trapper/tracker can tell the difference between cat and > > canine tracks at a glance. > > I seldom ever see claw marks on cat tracks and of course their shape > > is quite different than a canines. > > To try and explain the difference in tracks on the enternet or over > > the phone is nearly impossible. That is why I told him to make a > > plaster cast or take some very clear photos with something to show > > the scale and show it to an experienced tracker. If they are clear > > prints/photos he'll be able to tell them what they are in a second. > > Most people with limited tracking skills have no idea what tracks > > they are looking at or what a fresh track is. Most don't even notice > > half the sign that is around them. > > Respectfully, > > I agree with you main points. Claws in cat tracks are indeed rare, but > clawless dog tracks are not rare. > Frank > > - --part1_1a1.1254517f.2bb26dbb_boundary > Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > =3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">In a message dated 3/25/03 8:20:56 PM Eastern Standard= > Time, beaverboy@sofast.net writes:
>
>
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">This would be the exception Fra= > nk. As I said early just go look at a
> house cat tracks and see how many of them have claw marks.  An
> experienced trapper/tracker can tell the difference between cat and
> canine tracks at a glance.
>    I seldom ever see claw marks on cat tracks and of course their=20= > shape
> is quite different than a canines.
>    To try and explain the difference in tracks on the enternet or=20= > over
> the phone is nearly impossible. That is why I told him to make a
> plaster cast or take some very clear photos with something to show
> the scale and show it to an experienced tracker. If they are clear
> prints/photos he'll be able to tell them what they are in a second.
>    Most people with limited tracking skills have no idea what trac= > ks
> they are looking at or what a fresh track is. Most don't even notice
> half the sign that is around them.
>      Respectfully,

>
> I agree with you main points.  Claws in cat tracks are indeed rare, but= > clawless dog tracks are not rare.
> Frank > > - --part1_1a1.1254517f.2bb26dbb_boundary-- > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:16:46 -0800 > From: "Ben" > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth > > LOL Two Bears :) > Let's blame it on them French trappers!!! They must be the one's that got it > started. > Ben > - ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Two Bears Kelsey" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 6:11 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mountain Man list; char cloth > > > > > > Me and Jed Smith would just say a little prayer that ya'll didn't catch > > somethin' from them squaws > > > > Problem was that the "Squaws" are the ones that caught the diseases from > the > > white men !!! "Two Bears" > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: 01 Jan 1904 00:59:59 -0600 > From: Phyllis and Don Keas > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: 1803 Harpers Ferry fullstock? > > Not that I have ever heard. =20 > > On Sunday, March 23, 2003 05:55 PM, roger lahti = > wrote: > >Just got a call from a young friend who is reading a novel. In the novel = > the > >author has a character going out with the Corps and coming back to = > Harpers > >Ferry to buy another rifle for his brother or whomever. In the story the > >rifle he took was a full stock 1803 Harpers Ferry and when he got back = > they > >were then being built as half stocks. > > > >Is this true? Were the Corps 1803's actually full stocks? > > > >YMOS > >Capt. Lahti' > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: > >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 22:15:13 EST > From: SWcushing@aol.com > Subject: MtMan-List: Hairy Lizard > > - --part1_17e.18574514.2bb27541_boundary > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Capt, > > You and Crawdad gonna do the Hairy Lizard thing? (Is this a crptic message, > or what!) Might be able to get away.. > > Magpie > > - --part1_17e.18574514.2bb27541_boundary > Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > =3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">Capt,
>
> You and Crawdad gonna do the Hairy Lizard thing? (Is this a crptic message,=20= > or what!) Might be able to get away..
>
> Magpie > > - --part1_17e.18574514.2bb27541_boundary-- > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:22:59 -0700 > From: Mike Moore > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth > > Yes, I can Blood. > "That evening, I cleaned both guns,and packed them up more > carefully than I did my less important baggage." > Edwward Warren, Sir William Stewart page 39. > > I think I have two or three entries that show the men in the west > from time to time did clean their guns. This one is from a article I'm > working on now. I don't think that they did it like we do today. The > metals were different in the barrels and they probably used more > natural lubes to clean and protect. Maybe some can help me with this, > but the old and forged barrels and locks were like our good cast iron > today, and could be "cured". Our modern guns don't work good with the > same treatment. Having tried to only use natural cleaning on my guns > over a long peroid, let me say that that deer on the Flat Tops was > lucky that my smooth bore rusted up and the hammer wouldn't go down > (after six days of rain/snow). It was a terrible, miserable primitive > hunt that gave us only one deer. > I figure that when expecting trouble the guns were unloaded, > cleaned and reloaded. But, you need to remember that they probably > shot everyday or every other day(for food mostly). And that kept the > guns in good working order. > mike. > > > Butt in all you want bro.....this is a list that was made for > > people to butt in. > > Let me ask the list this. Can someone show me documentation that the > > mountain man even cleaned his gun at all? Can someone show > documentation in a > > journal that > > they ever cleaned a gun period? I'm sure that cleaning guns was a > > common occurance. Or was it? > > > > Blood > > > > > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 19:37:01 -0800 > From: Pat Quilter > Subject: MtMan-List: Re: Gun Cleaning in the Mtns > > And for what it's worth-- > I recall seeing manifest entries for "wiping sticks" which implies a > cleaning ramrod different than the ramrod that goes in your gunstock. And > the basic kit of tools included a tow-worm which must have been there for a > reason. > Pat Quilter > > - --------------- > > Yes, I can Blood. > "That evening, I cleaned both guns,and packed them up more > carefully than I did my less important baggage." > Edwward Warren, Sir William Stewart page 39. > > I think I have two or three entries that show the men in the west > from time to time did clean their guns. This one is from a article I'm > working on now. I don't think that they did it like we do today. The > metals were different in the barrels and they probably used more > natural lubes to clean and protect. Maybe some can help me with this, > but the old and forged barrels and locks were like our good cast iron > today, and could be "cured". Our modern guns don't work good with the > same treatment. Having tried to only use natural cleaning on my guns > over a long peroid, let me say that that deer on the Flat Tops was > lucky that my smooth bore rusted up and the hammer wouldn't go down > (after six days of rain/snow). It was a terrible, miserable primitive > hunt that gave us only one deer. > I figure that when expecting trouble the guns were unloaded, > cleaned and reloaded. But, you need to remember that they probably > shot everyday or every other day(for food mostly). And that kept the > guns in good working order. > mike. > > > Butt in all you want bro.....this is a list that was made for > > people to butt in. > > Let me ask the list this. Can someone show me documentation that the > > mountain man even cleaned his gun at all? Can someone show > documentation in a > > journal that > > they ever cleaned a gun period? I'm sure that cleaning guns was a > > common occurance. Or was it? > > > - ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ------------------------------ > > End of hist_text-digest V1 #1174 > ******************************** > > - > To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to > "majordomo@xmission.com" > with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #1175 ******************************** - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.