From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1177 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Friday, March 28 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1177 In this issue: -       Re: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper -       MtMan-List: Rifle/pistol websites? -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: Gun Cleaning in the Mtns -       Re: MtMan-List: char cloth -       Re: MtMan-List: modern trappers -       MtMan-List: off topic....more Dixie Chick stuff...delete now if offended -       RE: MtMan-List: Re: Gun Cleaning in the Mtns -       RE: MtMan-List: Re: Gun Cleaning in the Mtns -       Re: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: Gun Cleaning in the Mtns -       Re: MtMan-List: Re: Gun Cleaning in the Mtns -       Re: MtMan-List: char cloth -       MtMan-List: Cursed! -       Re: MtMan-List: char cloth -       Re: MtMan-List: char cloth ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 08:24:03 -0800 From: "Two Bears Kelsey" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper . Tin is fine, but do not leave it in there too long. > > Regards, Pewter works pretty good for tequila and for grog or beer!!! "Two Bears" - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 10:44:52 -0700 From: "busterize" Subject: MtMan-List: Rifle/pistol websites? Can anyone refer me to a website with technical & use info on rifles, pistols and ammo used during 1830-1845 trapping era? Geri - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 16:53:29 -0600 From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Gun Cleaning in the Mtns I recall seeing manifest entries for "wiping sticks" which implies a cleaning ramrod different than the ramrod that goes in your gunstock. Pat >> Pat, Do you have any idea where you found that documentation ? We've had this discussion before. I've searched all the manifest lists I could get my hands on and couldn't find it. I do know that it was written in 'historical novel'. Pendleton - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 16:53:48 -0600 From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Can you tell me more about "washeyes"? Where, when, used by whom? Jim >> Jim, "Washeyes" go back to the 18th century and were basically what we would call "button jags". They were often furnished with rifles along with bullet molds. Of course the problem was, when you broke your ramrod far away from civilization you would have no way to attach a ramrod tip which you could screw the jag in to. I think that is the reason various types of worms were made which could be put on a somewhat tapered end of a homemade ramrod. Pendleton - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 19:11:49 -0700 (MST) From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: modern trappers > I have a couple of hand forged traps about the size of #5s the rest are > Bridger #5 they do not cost as much to replace if ya loose one I use > total of eight traps. They are all set up with five foot of chain and I > make my sets much like they did. > Crazy Cyot Cyot, I also have 7 Bridger #5's they are a fine beaver trap. They are expensive however. You know as well as I that if a beaver is staked solid you have trouble. That is all I don't like about old methods. All that is needed to make any foothold trap a good drowning set is a length of 12 or 9ga wire and a burlap sack to fill with rocks. Not a lot of modern stuff. I think we can do this for a much swifter death. I agree with you on trappers that don't check their traps often. Most coyote trappers here in Montana run a 2 or 3 day check. I always ran a 2 day check on my land traps and up to 3 on my water sets as they are all drowning sets or humane conibear sets. Some of my sets I check daily and some high traffic areas I check every morning first thing. Sometimes I set traps at dusk and pull them at dawn. Being a good trapper is a much, much bigger responsibilty than being a good hunter. I'd like to remind our readers that it is usually against the law to disturb traps or trapped animals in traps. If there is a problem with a trap call a game warden. One trapper I knew got chewed out by the landowner for having a skunk in a trap for 3 days in a row. The trapper informed the landowner that it was a different skunk each day he was seeing. The trapper caught 3 skunks in 3 days. He's still trapping there. Beavers, skunks, gophers, raccoons etc.. can cause big problems for landowners. Trappers take care of the problem. bb - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 20:18:21 -0600 From: "Lanney Ratcliff" Subject: MtMan-List: off topic....more Dixie Chick stuff...delete now if offended This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_00E7_01C2F3D4.D8CB1780 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This little ditty got past just about everybody's radar. The story = itself is indicative of the DC's feelings but the slant imposed on the = story leaves little doubt where the sentiments of the writer lie. http://www.msnbc.com/news/887590.asp#BODY Lanney Ratcliff lanneyratcliff@charter.net ______________________________________________________________ Aux Aliments du Pays - ------=_NextPart_000_00E7_01C2F3D4.D8CB1780 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This little ditty got past = just about=20 everybody's radar.  The story itself is indicative of the DC's = feelings but=20 the slant imposed on the story leaves little doubt where the sentiments = of the=20 writer lie.
 
http://www.msnbc.com/n= ews/887590.asp#BODY
 
 
Lanney Ratcliff
lanneyratcliff@charter.net=
______________________________________________________________
Aux= =20 Aliments du Pays
- ------=_NextPart_000_00E7_01C2F3D4.D8CB1780-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 18:22:49 -0800 From: Pat Quilter Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Gun Cleaning in the Mtns Larry You ask a good question for which I cannot produce an exact answer of my own knowledge. So I turned to the Internet and Google. A search under "Wiping Stick" produced 15 or more references. Here are some samples: From Joe Meek, River of the West, (Off Dean's web site) "Now," spoke up one of the men quickly, "let Meek and Stanberry prove which is bravest, by fighting the bear!" "Agreed," cried the two as quickly, and both sprang with guns and wiping-sticks in hand, charging upon the infuriated beast as it reached the spot where they were awaiting it. Stanberry was a small man, and Meek a large one. Perhaps it was owing to this difference of stature that Meek was first to reach the bear as it advanced. Running up with reckless bravado Meek struck the creature two or three times over the head with his wiping-stick before aiming to fire, which however he did so quickly and so surely that the beast fell dead at his feet. The same search accessed the Canadian Export Control List for historic artifacts Group III -- Military objects The definitions in this section apply in this Group. accoutrement means a military accessory that is associated with the wearing of or use of a specific hand-carried weapon or piece of ordnance. It includes magazines, loading tools, belts, straps, holsters, mounts, telescopic or other sights, powder horns or flasks, bullet pouches, molds or starters, ramrods or wiping sticks, bayonets, scabbards, and carrying cases.(accessoires) From JOTTINGS OF PERSONAL RECOLLECTIONS OF A PIONEER OF 1850: By GEORGE E. COLE Transcribed for use in USGenWeb Archives by: W. David Samuelsen - July 2002 (After a lengthy description of events leading up to a treaty conference that was almost derailed by the report of an Indian runner that white men had shot one of their tribe) The Indian responded that a company of white men down on Applegate creek, under command of Captain Owens, had that morning captured an Indian known as Jim Taylor, tied him to a tree and shot him to death. The hubbub and confusion among the Indians at once became intense, and murder glared from each savage visage. The Indian interpreter told me that the Indians were threatening to tie us up to trees and serve us as Owens men had served Jim Taylor. I saw some Indians gathering up lasso ropes, while others drew the skin covers from their guns and the wiping sticks from the muzzles, There appeared to be a strong probability of our party being subjected to a sudden volley. These are just the first page of Google responses to "wiping sticks", so it appears there are numerous references in journals. Withdrawing "wiping sticks from the muzzles" would seem to distinguish them from ramrods, although I could be argued out of this. But why call them wiping sticks if not to wipe the barrel of the gun? See what else you can come up with. Best regards Pat Quilter - -----Original Message----- From: larry pendleton [mailto:yrrw@airmail.net] Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 2:53 PM To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Gun Cleaning in the Mtns I recall seeing manifest entries for "wiping sticks" which implies a cleaning ramrod different than the ramrod that goes in your gunstock. Pat >> Pat, Do you have any idea where you found that documentation ? We've had this discussion before. I've searched all the manifest lists I could get my hands on and couldn't find it. I do know that it was written in 'historical novel'. Pendleton - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 19:26:53 -0700 (MST) From: Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Re: Gun Cleaning in the Mtns I think wiping sticks were just new replacement ramrods, different diameters but uncut to length. Storing them in the muzzle is the perfect place to keep them. I know my wiping stick is just that, a spare long ramrod. I'll cut it to fit if I ever break my ramrod,... again. bb > Larry > You ask a good question for which I cannot produce an exact answer of my > own knowledge. So I turned to the Internet and Google. > > A search under "Wiping Stick" produced 15 or more references. Here are > some samples: > > From Joe Meek, River of the West, (Off Dean's web site) > "Now," spoke up one of the men quickly, "let Meek and Stanberry prove > which is bravest, by fighting the bear!" "Agreed," cried the two as > quickly, and both sprang with guns and wiping-sticks in hand, charging > upon the infuriated beast as it reached the spot where they were > awaiting it. Stanberry was a small man, and Meek a large one. Perhaps it > was owing to this difference of stature that Meek was first to reach the > bear as it advanced. Running up with reckless bravado Meek struck the > creature two or three times over the head with his wiping-stick before > aiming to fire, which however he did so quickly and so surely that the > beast fell dead at his feet. > > The same search accessed the Canadian Export Control List for historic > artifacts > > Group III -- Military objects > The definitions in this section apply in this Group. > accoutrement > means a military accessory that is associated with the wearing of or use > of a specific hand-carried weapon or piece of ordnance. It includes > magazines, loading tools, belts, straps, holsters, mounts, telescopic or > other sights, powder horns or flasks, bullet pouches, molds or starters, > ramrods or wiping sticks, bayonets, scabbards, and carrying > cases.(accessoires) > > From > JOTTINGS OF PERSONAL RECOLLECTIONS OF A PIONEER OF 1850: By GEORGE E. > COLE Transcribed for use in USGenWeb Archives by: > W. David Samuelsen - July 2002 > (After a lengthy description of events leading up to a treaty conference > that was almost derailed by the report of an Indian runner that white > men had shot one of their tribe) > The Indian responded that a company of white men down on Applegate > creek, under > command of Captain Owens, had that morning captured an Indian known as > Jim Taylor, tied him to a tree and shot him to death. The hubbub and > confusion among the Indians at once became intense, and murder glared > from each savage visage. The Indian interpreter told me that the Indians > were threatening to tie us up to trees and serve us as Owens men had > served Jim Taylor. I saw some Indians gathering up lasso ropes, while > others drew the skin covers from > their guns and the wiping sticks from the muzzles, There appeared to be > a strong probability of our party being subjected to a sudden volley. > > These are just the first page of Google responses to "wiping sticks", so > it appears there are numerous references in journals. Withdrawing > "wiping sticks from the muzzles" would seem to distinguish them from > ramrods, although I could be argued out of this. But why call them > wiping sticks if not to wipe the barrel of the gun? > > See what else you can come up with. > > Best regards > Pat Quilter > > -----Original Message----- > From: larry pendleton [mailto:yrrw@airmail.net] > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 2:53 PM > To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Gun Cleaning in the Mtns > > > I recall seeing manifest entries for "wiping sticks" which implies a > cleaning ramrod different than the ramrod that goes in your gunstock. > > Pat > >>> Pat, > Do you have any idea where you found that documentation ? We've had > this > discussion before. I've searched all the manifest lists I could get my > hands on and couldn't find it. I do know that it was written in > 'historical novel'. > > Pendleton > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 21:58:15 -0700 From: "Wynn & Gretchen Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Tin vs. copper > Wynn, > You may have a point there. I will go back and do some more field testing > and then share the results. > D > Dennis I have quit drinking for a while. Sorta like gave it up for lent kinda thing but if I get back to it afore we cross tracks I will be happy to share your results with you. Wynn - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 20:07:12 -0600 From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Gun Cleaning in the Mtns These are just the first page of Google responses to "wiping sticks", so it appears there are numerous references in journals. >>Pat, Like you, I've found lots of references to "wiping sticks", but I can find no record of them being hauled to the mountains for trade. I've checked all the lists on Dean's Site and unless I missed something, they ain't there. Pendleton - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 2003 18:57:27 -0800 From: "Curtis Krouse" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Gun Cleaning in the Mtns I've found on a list gun worms, but no mention of ramrods, wiping sticks, or wooden dowls. Blood On Thu, 2003-03-27 at 18:07, larry pendleton wrote: > These are just the first page of Google responses to "wiping sticks", so it > appears there are numerous references in journals. > > >>Pat, > Like you, I've found lots of references to "wiping sticks", but I can find > no record of them being hauled to the mountains for trade. I've checked all > the lists on Dean's Site and unless I missed something, they ain't there. > > Pendleton > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: 27 Mar 2003 19:06:12 -0800 From: "Curtis Krouse" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Capt, Don't much care for fightin' about it neither. But, I was talking about myself. I would be very hesitant.....I know I would. Would the common trader?....maybe. I think that they would stick close to each other unless they were in a safe area. There were too many stories of attacks from friendly tribes let alone hostile ones. My reasoning is this...... No one will leave a trading post with out supplying themselves for the trip. They just wouldn't do it. Not only would they supply themselves, but they'll take a lot of extra stuff to trade for furs. I can't imagine someone who is supplied like that would say, "No thanks....I don't use cloth for char...I like to scrounge around for mine." I can't imagine anyone having that sort of reasoning as you put it. I maintain that they would use cloth for char until their supply dwindles, then they would resupply with local materials along the trail. It's the same thing that you and I would do. Whether you stock up on charwood at home or char cloth at home....you never leave home without it. Once your supplies get low, you replenish with what is available. If you can't find anything locally for whatever reason, then you use your trading supplies. But, you sure aren't going to go cold just so you can save a few yards of cloth. That seems to me to be sound reasoning and seems to be exactly what I would do. I didn't imply that a good trader would not use and experiment with local materials to learn survival techniques....we know they did. Natural curiosity would drive any of us to do that. But.....I will still maintain that they stocked up on everything...including cloth for char and then restocked as they went. Nuff said, Blood On Tue, 2003-03-25 at 22:15, roger lahti wrote: > Blood, > > Not looking to pick a fight with you brother but if > > "Now, if I were in the mountains, loaded with company goods, I certainly > > would NOT stray from camp in hostile territory to find fungus, burnt > > trees, or any other substance to start the fire with. I'd be using the > > reams of cloth that I had at my disposal." > > etc. isn't implying a certain fear of getting away from camp then I guess I > can't read the English language worth squat. > > That may not be what you meant but that is what you said. And no I don't > think you believe they were too scared to leave camp. I just don't think > your reasoning is valid. > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 20:22:19 -0700 (MST) From: Subject: MtMan-List: Cursed! > Beaverboy, > If it is within your power to curse me back to 1829 and put a pile of > beaver at my feet and Jim Bridger across the fire dryin' his moccasins > while I skin, you just curse yourself silly. > Jim Jim, We are floating the Yellowstone River next week, the 3rd-6th. It is within my power to invite you to join us. Nonresidents can't trap beaver (if your a nonresident of Montana?) but they sure can skin them. We ain't Jim Bridger but we are Potts, Drouillard, Colter, and Shields. We'd love to have you come along and do all the skinning. We don't curse on our trips however. beaverboy Contact me off list if your interested. I've heard about how people are deceitful on the internet. Hopefully you're really a beautiful blonde female and not a smelly trapper. - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 21:05:01 -0800 From: "roger lahti" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth Blood, Just wanted to make sure we all understood that this was a good natured discussion between friends and not a heated argument. But no one has said that anyone back then would knowingly leave their supply point be it a trading post, fort or rendezvous without the necessary gear and that would include fire makings. What I tried to point out is that resupplying those makings with more natural materials does not require doing anything more than stepping away from the fire. And there are plenty of materials around that one would hardly ever run out. No, I can't buy your argument that it was too dangerous so therefore they must have had to use char cloth or char up their trade goods. There is not the valid justification for such a supposition. You know perfectly well that trappers and traders like the Americans and people in our country like Alexander Ross traveled all over the place without running afoul of Bug's Boys every time they turned around. If you want to use char cloth then do so. If you want to convince anyone that it was the material of choice your going to have to come up with some better arguments. YF&B Capt. Lahti' - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 13:27:51 -0500 From: LODGEPOLE@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: char cloth VGhpcyB0b3BpYyBiZWNvbWVzIG1vcmUgYW5kIG1vcmUgaW50ZXJlc3RpbmcgYXMgaXQgZ29l cyBvbi4gIEVhY2ggYW5zd2VyIHRvIHRoZSBxdWVzdGlvbiBzZWVtcyB0byBsZWFkIHRvIG1v cmUgcXVlc3Rpb25zLiBTb21lIGZvbGtzIHNlZW0gdG8gZ2hhdmUgdGhpZXIgbWluZHMgbWFk ZSB1cCBpbiBvbmUgZGlyZWN0aW9uIG9yIGFub3RoZXIsIGFuZCBvZiBjb3Vyc2UgdGhlcmUg c2VlbXMgdG8gYmUgdGhvc2Ugd2hvIGhhdmUgdG8gaGF2ZSB3cml0dGVuIHByb29mIG9yIGl0 IGRpZCBub3QgaGFwcGVuIGV0Yy4gIFdpbGwgd2UgZXZlciBnZXQgdGhlIHRydWUgYW5zd2Vy PyAgTWF5YmUgbm90LiAgQnV0IGp1c3QgZm9yIHRoZSBoZWNrIG9mIGl0IGxldCBtZSBhZGQg YSBxdWVzdGlvbiBhbmQgbWF5YmUgd2UgY2FuIGtlZXAgdGhlIHRocmVhZCBhbGl2ZSBhIGJp dCBsb25nZXIuCgpJbiBhIG1lc3NhZ2UgZGF0ZWQgMy8yNSwgQmxvb2Qgd3JpdGVzOgoKPDwg TWF5YmUgdG93IGlzIHNvbWV0aGluZyBvdGhlciB0aGFuIHdoYXQgd2UgdGhpbmsgaXQgaXMu ICBPciBpdCB3YXMgY2FsbGVkIGRpZmZlcmVudCB0aGluZ3MgYXQgdGhhdC4gPj4KCiAgTm93 IHRoaXMgdGFrZXMgbWUgYmFjayB0byBhbiBlYXJsaWVyIHBvc3QgKGNhbid0IHJlY2FsbCB3 aG8ncykgd2hlcmUgdGhleSB3ZXJlIGFyZ3VpbmcgYWdhaW5zdCAiQ2hhciBDbG90aCIgZXZl ciBiZWluZyB1c2VkLiAgVGhleSBzaG93ZWQgc29tZSBkb2N1bWVudGF0aW9uIHRoYXQgIlB1 bmsiIHdhcyB1c2VkLiAgSSB0b29rIGZyb20gdGhhdCB0aGF0IHRoaXMgd2FzIHRoZWlyIGFy Z3VtZW50IGluIGZhdm9yIG9mICJQdW5rIFdvb2QuIiBPZnRlbiB3aGlsZSByZXNlYXJjaGlu ZyB3ZSBoYXZlIGRpc2NvdmVyZWQgdGhhdCB3aGF0IGhhcyBzdGFsbGVkIHVzIGluIGZpbmRp bmcgd2hhdCB3ZSB3ZXJlIGxvb2tpbmcgZm9yIHdhcyB0aGF0IHRoZSBkZWZpbml0aW9uIG9m IGEgd29yZCB0b2RheSB3YXMgbm90IG5lY2Vzc2FyaWx5IHRoZSBkZWZpbml0aW9uIG9mIHRo YXQgd29yZCAyMDAgeWVhcnMgYWdvIGFuZCB2aWNlIHZlcnNhLiAgU28gbXkgcXVlc3Rpb25z IGFyZSAxLikgd2FzICJDaGFyIENsb3RoIiBjYWxsZWQgQ2hhciBDbG90aCAyMDAgeWVhcnMg YWdvIG9yIHdhcyBpdCBjYWxsZWQgc29tZXRoaW5nIGVsc2U/ICAyLilXYXMgd2hhdCB0aGV5 IGNhbGxlZCAiUHVuayIgMjAwIHllYXJzIGFnbyBQdW5rIFdvb2Qgb3Igd2FzIHBvc3NpYmx5 IHNvbWV0aGluZyBlbHNlPyAgQ291bGQgIkNoYXIgQ2xvdGgiIGJlZW4gY2FsbGVkIFB1bms/ ICAzLikgb3ZlciB0aGUgeWVhcnMgd2UndmUgc2VlbiBtYW55IHJlZmVyZW5jZXMgbWFkZSBp bmRpY2F0aW5nIHRoYXQgdGhlIG1vdW50YWluIG1lbiBzZWVtIHRvIGFsd2F5cyBzZWVtZWQg dG8gcHVyY2hhc2UgbmV3IGNsb3RoIHNoaXJ0cyBhdCByZW5kZXp2b3VzIGZvciB0aGVtc2Vs dmVzLiBXaGVuIHRoZXNlIHNoaXJ0cyB3b3JlIG91dCB3aGF0IGRpZCB0aGV5IGRvIHdpdGgg dGhlbT8gQ2xlYW5pbmcgcGF0Y2hlcz8gQ2hhciBjbG90aCBwZXJoYXBzPwoKSSdtIG5vdCBv bmUgb2YgdGhvc2UgaGFyZCBjb3JlIHJlZW5hY3RvcnMgdGhhdCBoYXMgdG8gc2hvdyB1cCBh dCByZW5kZXp2b3VzIHdpdGggMzIgdGVuIHBvdW5kIGhpc3RvcmljYWwgdm9sdW1lcyB0byBh dXRoZW50aWNhdGUgZXZlcnl0aGluZyBpbiBteSBjYW1wIG9yIHRvIGRpc2NyZWRpdCBzb21l b25lIGVsc2Uncy4gIEknbSBqdXN0IGluIGl0IGZvciB0aGUgZnVuIGFuZCB0byBsZWFybiBh Ym91dCBzb21ldGhpbmcgdGhhdCBpbnRlcmVzdHMgbWUgbXVjaC4gVGhlcmUgYXJlIG1hbnkg d2F5cyB0byBzdGFydCBhIGZpcmUgYW5kIEkndmUgdXNlZCBtb3N0IG9mIHRoZW0gYXQgb25l IHRpbWUgb3IgYW5vdGhlci4gSnVzdCBkZXBlbmRzIG9uIHdoYXQgdGhlIGNpcmN1bXN0YW5j ZXMgYXJlLiAgSWYgSSd2ZSBnb3Qgc29tZSBvbGQgY290dG9uIGNsb3RoIGFyb3VuZCB0aGF0 IGlzbid0IGdvaW5nIHRvIGJlIG11Y2ggZ29vZCBmb3IgYW55dGhpbmcgZWxzZSBhbnltb3Jl LCBJJ2xsIGNoYXIgaXQuIElmIEkgY29tZSBhY3Jvc3Mgc29tZSBnb29kIHNvZnQgcm90dGlu ZyB3b29kLCBJJ2xsIGNoYXIgdGhhdC4gSWYgSSBoYXZlIG5laXRoZXIsIEkgY2FuIHVzZSBw b3dkZXIgb3IgcGVyaGFwcyBteSBtYWduaWZ5aW5nIGdsYXNzLiAgSSBzdXNwZWN0IHRoYXQg cGVyaGFwcyB0aGlzIG1heSB3ZWxsIGhhdmUgYmVlbiB0aGUgd2F5IHRoZXkgZGlkIHRoaW5n cyAyMDAgeWVhcnMgYWdvIGFzIHdlbGwuICBTb21lIHRoaW5ncyB3ZXJlIHNvIGV2ZXJ5ZGF5 IGNvbW1vbiB0aGF0IGl0IHdhc24ndCB3cml0dGVuIGFib3V0LCBzbyB3ZSBtYXkgbmV2ZXIg a25vdy4gIDIwMCB5ZWFycyBmcm9tIG5vdyB3aGVuIHNvbWUgZm9vbCB3YW50cyB0byByZWVu YWN0IHRoZSBsaWZlIGFuZCB0aW1lcyBvZiBMb25nc2hvdCwgaG93IHdpbGwgaGUgZ28gYWJv dXQgc29tZSBzbWFsbCB0aGluZ3M/ICBJIHNtb2tlZCBmb3Igc29tZSB5ZWFycy4gRGlkIEkg dXNlIG1hdGNoZXMgb3IgYSBsaWdodGVyIHRvIGxpZ2h0IHRoZW0/IEkndmUgbmV2ZXIgd3Jp dHRlbiBhYm91dCBpdC4gIFRoZXJlIGlzIGEgcGljdHVyZSBJJ20gYXdhcmUgb2YgdGhvdWdo IHRoYXQgc2hvd3MgbWUgdXNpbmcgbWF0Y2hlcyB0byBsaWdodCBvbmUuICBDb3VsZCB0aGlz IHBpYyBiZSB1c2VkIGFzIGRlZmluaXRlIHByb29mIHRoYXQgSSB1c2VkIG1hdGNoZXM/IEkg c3VwcG9zZSBzby4gVHJ1dGggaXMgdGhhdCBJIHJhcmVseSBkaWQuICBJIGFsbW9zdCBhbHdh eXMgdXNlZCBhIGxpZ2h0ZXIuIFNvIHRoZSBvbmx5IHdheSBhbnlvbmUgMjAwIHllYXJzIGFn byB3aWxsIGtub3cgaXMgaWYgc29tZW9uZSBzYXZlcyB0aGlzIGUtbWFpbCBmb3IgdGhlIHBy b3NwZXJpdHkgb2YgdGhlIHdvcmxkLiBXaGF0IGRvZXMgYWxsIHRoaXMgcmFtYmxpbmcgbWVh bj8gIEkgZ3Vlc3MgdGhhdCBJIHdpbGwgYWx3YXlzIGtlZXAgYW4gb3BlbiBtaW5kIGFuZCBu b3Qgc2F5ICJUaGlzIElTIGhvdyBpdCB3YXMgZG9uZSEiCgpMb25nc2hvdAo= - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #1177 ******************************** - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.