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To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1182
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hist_text-digest        Monday, March 31 2003        Volume 01 : Number 1182



In this issue:

-       Re: MtMan-List: post-1840
-       Re: MtMan-List: post-1840
-       Re: MtMan-List: post-1840
-       Re: MtMan-List: post-1840
-       Re: MtMan-List: post-1840
-       Re: MtMan-List: post-1840
-       Re: MtMan-List:post 1840
-       Re: MtMan-List: post-1840
-       Re: MtMan-List: post-1840
-       Re: MtMan-List: post-1840
-       Re: MtMan-List: post 1840
-       MtMan-List: unsubscribe
-       Re: MtMan-List: post 1840
-       Re: MtMan-List: post-1840
-       Re: MtMan-List: post-1840
-       Re: MtMan-List: unsubscribe
-       Re: MtMan-List: post-1840
-       MtMan-List: Post 1840
-       Re: MtMan-List:post 1840
-       Re: MtMan-List: post-1840

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 13:26:45 -0800
From: "roger lahti" <amm1719@charter.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840

<Actually I think it would be quite interesting. Imagine the energy the
Mormons would apply to research of technology that couldn't help spilling
over to those men still portraying trapping in the Rocky Mountains.>

<But truly, I really only thought of continuing the portrayal, as modern
rendezvous does, of the FUR TRADE. I'm sure a few gold miners and Mormon
immigrants would walk in to our rendezvous>

> They stayed mountain men, in the Rocky Mountains and trapped beaver and
> other furs, except it was after 1840. I don't know where the idea came
from. >

Jim,

I have no idea either. It just seemed to be out there. Really, we are just
having fun with this as much as anything. Absolutely nothing personal. No
one has said we can't talk about a later time period, say to 1860. No one is
talking about that time period. They, you are talking about why we can't
have a Rendezvous that covers that time frame and we have pointed out in
several ways that if you expand the time frame to the 60's it is no longer a
Rendezvous. Simple as that.

Hell there are still "Mt. Men" out living in the mountains to this day much
as they did back then. We just aren't talking about this age. The primary
focus of this list is the early 1800's and the Rocky Mt. Fur Trade.

Sorry, I can't direct you to a list that speaks to the post 1840's. I'm sure
they are there. Will you get to a list that is devoted to 1840-1860 and
suggest to them that the events they hold and the discussions they have
would be much more interesting if they would just open them up to the
1880's?

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'


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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 13:31:55 -0800
From: "roger lahti" <amm1719@charter.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "roger lahti" <amm1719@charter.net>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840


> Jim,
>
> I'm sorry you even mentioned the Mormon migration.

Jim,

My appologies. You didn't mention the Mormon Migration that I could find.

BTW, as I understand it, after the Rendezvous era most if not all of the
people involved in the Fur Trade and certainly many of the knowledgable and
surviving "Mt. Men" gave up the mountains and settled or tried to settle out
west further. The Willamette Valley in OR. is a prime destination. Many
others worked as guides and scouts but with out the market for furs there
was little incentive to keep trapping though I am sure a few did. It can't
be an exhaustive subject line though.

YMOS
Capt. Lahti'..


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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 15:32:20 -0600
From: "James MacKannai" <mackannai@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840

Yeah, if memory serves me right his first Indian wife was Mormon. I don't 
know about the second wife.

I can understand your preference for this land before the great migration 
started.

Jim




>From: GazeingCyot@cs.com
>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840
>Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 15:59:50 EST
>
>Big Wolf
>ya came up with a new one on me Beaver Dick Leigh had a Mormon family?
>To my knowledge both his Families were form Indian wives. Jenny Lake in 
>Teton
>Park is named after one of them. They may have join the Mormon Church to 
>try
>to fit in with the town of Eagle Rock that sprang up around them. That 
>later
>became know as Idaho Falls in these years he was kind of an out cast know 
>as
>a Squaw Man for having Indian wives. His first Family all died from illness
>can't remember what right now it has been a while since I read his 
>biography
>and can't seem to locate the book right now most of loan it out to the wind
>some time back. I don't do that any more.
>
>Jim
>I have read some on the history post 1840 and to tell ya the truth when the
>Rendezvous died out and the settlers stated moving in and through this
>country it looses it's charm for me. That is when a new attitude started to
>come in that takes away from the freedom and wilds of this country and
>changes it for me. The lives of the Indians and trappers and Traders all
>change with it and for me it was not for the good. That for me this is the
>start of the decline of the part of history that I love.
>Crazy Cyot


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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 15:43:40 -0600
From: "James MacKannai" <mackannai@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840

I believe Wyn brought up the Mormon migration. Everyone responding after 
that post assumed it was me who brought it up AND that I wanted to add it to 
the rendezvous scene. Pretty hard to have a converstation when you have to 
restate a position every time. Then , of course someone else jumps in at the 
middle and it starts all over again.

I was NOT discussing including more western history; just twenty more years 
of mountain men history that would include Jim Bridger, John Smith, traders 
such as Chardon etc.


I think the same reaction would take place with any group so it is pointless 
to discuss ways to bring new life to the rendezvous.

Jim



>From: "roger lahti" <amm1719@charter.net>
>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840
>Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 12:41:15 -0800
>
>Jim,
>
>I'm sorry you even mentioned the Mormon migration. I certainly wouldn't 
>have
>though of it. And if you think I am distorting the meaning of what you are
>writing, all I can do is suggest you examine what you write before you send
>it. I'm certainly not trying to distort what you say on purpose, really, I
>am responding to your thoughts with my take on those thoughts.
>
>Anyway, let's get off that and back to what you were saying, that we might
>consider a rendezvous that covers more western history other than just the
>pre-1840's, for example, etc.
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 17:01:03 -0500
From: "Double Edge Forge" <deforge1@bright.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840

"I think the same reaction would take place with any group so it is
pointless
to discuss ways to bring new life to the rendezvous."

>>   Why bother with "new life" when folks can't get the "old" one right??
And what makes you think people, in general, would put any more effort in
40-60 than they do now at doins??
D




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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 16:01:52 -0600
From: "James MacKannai" <mackannai@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840

Bent's, Laramie and other forts kept on. Hardscrabble was a small settlement 
that was established in Colorado after 1840 by mountain men and there was 
Barclay who mentions cutting out clothing for the men who stayed in the 
mountains. Bridger continued on for several years even before he thought to 
make money from the Mormons. All these places supplied men who continued to 
trap.

PLEASE NOTICE: I AM NOT SAYING WE SHOULD INCLUDE THE JOHNSON COUNTY WAR AT 
RENDEZVOUS OR EXTEND THE DATE PAST 1860, but two men involved in the killing 
at K.C. were down from the mountains with beaver and looking for more. That 
was 1890's. Trapping continued.

1840-60 found men living with Indians as traditionally as ever, raising 
their half blood children. Casper, Wyoming was settled by such a man in the 
very early days. I know there are many people out there who believe, because 
of the cut off established by modern rendezvous, that the fur trade ended 
and there were no more real mountain men; but there were many. If a complete 
study were undertaken I'd bet the numbers approach those of the earlier 
beaver men. Look at the Bent boys who grew up Cheyenne. There are so many 
and most of them interesting. Anyway I like to study them.

Is there really a group that portrays the post 1840 mountain men?

Jim






>From: "roger lahti" <amm1719@charter.net>
>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840
>Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 13:31:55 -0800
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "roger lahti" <amm1719@charter.net>
>To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
>Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 12:41 PM
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840
>
>
> > Jim,
> >
> > I'm sorry you even mentioned the Mormon migration.
>
>Jim,
>
>My appologies. You didn't mention the Mormon Migration that I could find.
>
>BTW, as I understand it, after the Rendezvous era most if not all of the
>people involved in the Fur Trade and certainly many of the knowledgable and
>surviving "Mt. Men" gave up the mountains and settled or tried to settle 
>out
>west further. The Willamette Valley in OR. is a prime destination. Many
>others worked as guides and scouts but with out the market for furs there
>was little incentive to keep trapping though I am sure a few did. It can't
>be an exhaustive subject line though.
>
>YMOS
>Capt. Lahti'..
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 14:18:24 -0800
From: "Bear Kelsey" <tubears@charter.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840

The supposed atmosphere of an original Rendezvous will not be permitted to
exist in this day and age simply because of the family atmosphere and of
course the families that attend. The majority will only put up with so much
hell raising

You are right and I agree where families are involved. I guess what needs to
be done is putting on a rondy that is not a family thing. Don't get me
wrong, I am all for getting the family involved to preserve the history that
these brave pioneers set before we as re-enactors came along. I would like
to see some invite only rondy's where the true rendezvous spirit as it was
in say 1820 could be revived and lived like it was back then.  "Two Bears"


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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 14:25:36 -0800
From: "RICK TABOR" <blackshirt75@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840

As I understand it, the last "official" rendezvous was in 1840. Due to the 
decline in the demand for beaver. However, according to the Museum of the 
Fur Trade the fur trade never ended. Buffalo came next.Not to mention the 
different furs from Alaska to Africa.
  With that said, I still agree with the 1840 cut off date.
                                R.L.Tabor





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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 16:32:15 -0600
From: "James MacKannai" <mackannai@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840

That is a perfectly good point. I suppose I was hoping the later time period 
would allow the poorly prepared ones to be authentic for a change.

Seriously,I was hoping it would encourage research that would spill over and 
strengthen the knowledge base already present.

The eastern rendezvous I've seen are a hodge podge of eras, but good things 
come of that. Groups that want to restrict a gathering to a certain era do 
exactly that, yet the broad interest has produced outlets for all sorts of 
well researched and very high quality items that would not exist without 
that broader market as an outlet.

Here in the west the incentive to produce is inhibited by a restricted 
market. If we could get more people interested in the presently established 
pre-1840 era items such as (for example) sheet iron kettles with cast ears, 
authentic spurs, etc. might be profitable enough to stimulate research, 
development and production of those things. Since that is obviously not 
happening to a large degree there must be other ways to draw more interest 
without compromising the things people love about rendezvous. We need growth 
in order to generate a market that will generate research and really neat 
things, which would draw more interest and begin the whole cycle again.

My initial post was driven by trying to think of ways that would stimulate 
growth and interest in Western fur trade-rendezvous-mountain man related 
history.

I must say your response was at my own fingertips several times. I agree 
with it whole heartedly. I think most posts reflect the same doubt as to 
people putting more effort into "getting it right". I have doubts myself.In 
fact I think that very doubt is the cause of fears expressed by most who 
responded.

Jim






>From: "Double Edge Forge" <deforge1@bright.net>
>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com
>To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840
>Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 17:01:03 -0500
>
>"I think the same reaction would take place with any group so it is
>pointless
>to discuss ways to bring new life to the rendezvous."
>
> >>   Why bother with "new life" when folks can't get the "old" one right??
>And what makes you think people, in general, would put any more effort in
>40-60 than they do now at doins??
>D
>
>
>
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html


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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 16:36:30 -0600
From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840

Dick,

As much as I love AMM, I'll go with Hiram Martin Chittenden who felt the 
return of Lewis and Clark and the founding of Fort Bridger are the landmark 
events which best define the time frame of the period (1805 to 1843).

John...


At 01:27 PM 3/31/03, you wrote:

>YES!
>It started with the AMM when they had a cut off date of 1850 but changed it
>to 1840 because Levi Staus was making britches for the '49er and we didn't
>think Levis were correct for rendezvous.  It was linked to the last
>significant rendezvous date at the same time.  This was 1973.  Anyone have a
>story that pre-dates this one??
>
>Richard James

________________________________
Remember August 1, 1794!!!







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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 15:09:52 -0800
From: "roger lahti" <amm1719@charter.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post 1840

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  Linda Holley....but then again.......I like the view from my side with =
the boys and their  breech cloths.

  You like that view? Yuck! I supose your the one woman in the world who =
appreciates Speedo's. <G>
  Capt. L





    <Love some of the girls going around in breech clout and honour =
shirts.>

    I remember a young "lady" at the first rendezvous we went to back =
in, well I can't remember when but it was up on the Boulder River from =
Big Timber. She was dressed in leggings, breech clout and a fairly short =
shirt.=20

    I been' comin' back every since!

    YMOS
    Capt. Lahti'




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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE></TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1141" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT=20
  face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>
  <DIV><BR>Linda Holley....but then again.......I like the view from my =
side=20
  with the boys and their &nbsp;breech cloths.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>You like that view? Yuck! I supose =
your the one=20
  woman in the world who appreciates Speedo's. =
&lt;G&gt;</FONT></DIV><FONT=20
  face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Capt. L</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><BR><BR><BR></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE cite=3Dmid002101c2f727$901ead70$72057744@x2d1a5 =
type=3D"cite">
    <META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1141" name=3DGENERATOR>
    <STYLE></STYLE>

    <DIV>&lt;Love some of the girls going around in breech clout and =
honour=20
    shirts.&gt;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I remember a young "lady" at the =
first=20
    rendezvous we went to back in, well I can't remember when but it was =
up on=20
    the Boulder River from Big Timber. She was dressed in leggings, =
breech clout=20
    and a fairly short shirt. </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I been' comin' back every =
since!</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>YMOS<BR>Capt. Lahti'</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0110_01C2F797.949377D0--


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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 18:23:26 -0500
From: "william stidd" <wstidd@neo.rr.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: unsubscribe

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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 15:25:02 -0800
From: "roger lahti" <amm1719@charter.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post 1840

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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It's all part of God's plan plain and simple, and that's the naked =
truth!

Capt. L

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Linda Holley=20
  To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
  Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 1:24 PM
  Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post 1840


  Oh!!!!! geeee!!!! another long eye baller.  You guys just amaze me.  =
But I love it.

  Linda Holley.....naked at the sweat lodge.

  Bear Kelsey wrote:

    <Love some of the girls going around in breech clout and honour =
shirts.>

    I remember a young "lady" at the first rendezvous we went to back =
in, well I can't remember when but it was up on the Boulder River from =
Big Timber. She was dressed in leggings, breech clout and a fairly short =
shirt.=20

    I been' comin' back every since!

    YMOS
    Capt. Lahti'


    Seen one at a rondy in Washington state once that had a rather short =
halter top made from buck skin. Her problem was fallout every time she =
bent over to look at trade goods on the ground. Didn't seem to bother =
her to much. She would just reach up and stuff them back in and go right =
on chatting with whoever she was talking to. When I seen what was going =
on, I took all my trade goods off the tables that I had and put them on =
blankets on the ground. It was worth the trouble, too!!!!  "Two Bears"


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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE></TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type =
content=3Dtext/html;charset=3DISO-8859-1>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1141" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It's all part of God's plan plain and =
simple, and=20
that's the naked truth!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Capt. L</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dtipis@attbi.com href=3D"mailto:tipis@attbi.com">Linda =
Holley</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dhist_text@lists.xmission.com=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:hist_text@lists.xmission.com">hist_text@lists.xmission.com=
</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, March 31, 2003 =
1:24=20
PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: MtMan-List: post =
1840</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>Oh!!!!! geeee!!!! another long eye baller. &nbsp;You =
guys just=20
  amaze me. &nbsp;But I love it.<BR><BR>Linda Holley.....naked at the =
sweat=20
  lodge.<BR><BR>Bear Kelsey wrote:<BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE cite=3Dmid008401c2f72f$2d157620$84367444@computer =
type=3D"cite">
    <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR>
    <STYLE></STYLE>

    <DIV>
    <DIV>&lt;Love some of the girls going around in breech clout and =
honour=20
    shirts.&gt;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I remember a young "lady" at the =
first=20
    rendezvous we went to back in, well I can't remember when but it was =
up on=20
    the Boulder River from Big Timber. She was dressed in leggings, =
breech clout=20
    and a fairly short shirt. </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I been' comin' back every =
since!</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>YMOS<BR>Capt. Lahti'</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Seen one at a rondy in Washington =
state once=20
    that had a rather short halter top made from buck skin. Her problem =
was=20
    fallout every time she bent over to look at trade goods on the =
ground.=20
    Didn't seem to bother her to much. She would just reach up and stuff =
them=20
    back in and go right on chatting with whoever she was talking to. =
When I=20
    seen what was going on, I took all my trade goods off the tables =
that I had=20
    and put them on blankets on the ground. It was worth the trouble,=20
    too!!!!&nbsp; "Two=20
Bears"</FONT></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 18:44:40 EST
From: SWzypher@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840

In a message dated 3/31/03 3:57:06 PM, kramer@kramerize.com writes:

<<. . . . . best define the time frame of the period (1805 to 1843). >>
The period of . . . .what?
Dick

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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 17:38:45 -0600
From: John Kramer <kramer@kramerize.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840

The Rocky Mountain Fur Trade, which was the original subject.

John...


At 05:44 PM 3/31/03, you wrote:

>In a message dated 3/31/03 3:57:06 PM, kramer@kramerize.com writes:
>
><<. . . . . best define the time frame of the period (1805 to 1843). >>
>The period of . . . .what?
>Dick
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for 
lunch.  Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."

Benjamin Franklin 1759


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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 18:56:03 -0500
From: "Addison Miller" <admiller@citynet.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: unsubscribe

Click on this link  http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html and
unsubscribe there....

Ad Miller


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Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 18:42:17 -0500
From: hawknest4@juno.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840

richard---
levi bibbers go back befor 1840 been thru that and seen documentation to
1835---just not exactly as we know them today

H

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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 21:07:43 -0700 (MST)
From: <beaverboy@sofast.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Post 1840

Jim wrote,
> Do you think it is just a bad idea then?

Dear List,
    Jim waxes poetically about the old west that he loves and how the
pioneers and settlers that came later ruined or changed the west for
him. Then he wants to push the expansion of the study and research of
the western fur trade. Why? So that even more people fall in love,
then move out west to follow their dreams? The second or third, fifth,
sixth migration to the west? Watch out for what you wish for.
    Jim, you asked in one of your first post on this subject, "Do you
think this is just a bad idea then?" Yes Jim, it's a bad idea, it's a
terrible idea. There, I said it, I'm sorry. Your idea of pushing it to
1860 sucks.
    I agree with almost everyone. Kramer is right, L&C to Fort Bridger is
the perfect timeline. Double Edge Forge is right too, they can't get
it right at rendezvous with the dates we have now so why add 20 more
years?
   Jim, it's obvious you're a scholar in this field with a great passion
and knowledge for this era but this is not a good idea.
                Sincerely and most respectfully yours,
                           beaverboy




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Date: 31 Mar 2003 20:20:28 -0800
From: "Curtis Krouse" <kc16@qwest.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List:post 1840

Just a couple comments to throw onto the heap here.

> They had and used wedge tents and though I hate to say it
> there is visual evidence suggesting the use of pyramid tents. Not every
> trapper camp and not all the time but tents were used. It's the many other
> things that folks bring with them that are really not appropriate but are
> allowed for various reasons. Not the lest of which is that the modern
> western Rendezvous is honestly a commercial venture, almost held for the
> traders who set up as much as the campers. They are not really in the
> business of turning folks away.

The original rendezvous was thrown specifically for commercial
interests.  So, in that respect, most "flat-lander" rendezvous today are
held in EXACTLY the same spirit as the original.  Whatever is bad for
business, it is bad for rendezvous.  TENTS:  1831 Henry R. Schoolcraft,
Indian Agent right on his inventory sheet of items and prices of goods
sold to traders -  Tents-traders $24.00 each.  Now, the only thing that
can lead to doubt in this entry is that some of the articles on the list
are also for domestic goods and provisions, so I can't tell if the tents
ever really made it to the mountains.

> But even though an AMM National might be the closest thing you'll see to an
> original Rendezvous, there is not the hell raising and etc. that many think
> is necessary to make a Rendezvous a Rendezvous.

I don't think that AMM rendezvous are anything like the original.  There
are never any commercial traders at AMM doins.  Those traders would be
there in their wagons with tents and stoves and all kinds of goods to
trade for furs.  We don't see that at the AMM rondy's because we don't
invite traders to our encampments.  I don't think that there are any
rendezvous that I've been to in the last 20 years that are would be a
good representation of the original vous.  

> .... considering some of the
> pilgrims I see at those events I'm not sure it's a bad rule to forbid loaded
> guns in camp (as though anyone abided by that one <G>).

I hope that we can agree that a black powder weapon with a charge in the
barrel is not loaded.  I have absolutely no problem with a charged gun
in camp and rarely am without one myself.  However, if I am Booshway at
a camp, and I see someone with a charged pan or nipple, I'll tell them
to unload their gun or leave camp.  There is no excuse for walking
around with a charged gun in camp....and no reason.  It is dangerous and
negligent if one does.  So...I hope that you were not talking about a
"charged" weapon.

Respectfully,
Blood




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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 23:55:20 EST
From: Hawkengun@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: post-1840

- --part1_104.2b75fecc.2bba75b8_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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I'm more of an historian than a buckskinner, and most of my reenacting 
experience comes from having worked at Bent's Old Fort NHS as a park ranger, 
but I'm going to throw out a couple of points with regards to this Fur Trade 
Period discussion that's going on.

1. First, we should remember that the idea of a "Fur Trade era" is just 
that-- an idea.  And parameters or time limits we draw around any period in 
history are artificial and usually pretty arbitrary. 
2.  The fur trade never stopped, never even went into much of a decline, and 
of course continues to this day.  Beaver prices continued to fall and rise 
throughout the 19th c.  Again, the beaver market did the same in the 20th c. 
and into the 21st.
3.  Mountain men didn't stop being mountain men in 1840-- guys were out there 
trapping, trading and living with Indian wives for several more decades.  We 
can document Kit Carson, Bill Williams, et. Al. going on trapping expeditions 
in the 1850s.  The names were the same, the mtns were the same, the endeavor 
was the same, the technology was pretty much unchanged.
4.  So was there a "mtn man/Rocky Mtn fur trade ear" at all?  I think so. But 
it didn't end in 1840 ( the last year that Sublette sent out a supply train). 
Rendezvous' were taking place at spots like Brown's Hole for years 
afterwards. And trading companies like Bent, St. Vrain & Co. were sending out 
trading wagons to meet up with Indians, trappers etc.
       If you're looking for a good cut-off date (the "end of an era", so to 
speak) then 1846 makes a whole lot more sense. Benard DeVoto's "Year of 
Decision" is a much better candidate for the following reasons, among others:

*Prior to 1846 the Far West was mostly "borderlands", up for grabs to the 
strongest and most determined power that could control it, whether that be 
the British Empire, the USA, Mexico, the Comanches-- whoever. But in 1846 the 
Oregon dispute was resolved and the Mexican War started.  These events 
settled the issue of which Euro/Euro-American power was going to rule the Far 
West. Once that was decided, the defeat of the Indians and the 
civilization/economic development of the region was only a matter of time.

*The Bear Flag revolt was in 1846 and the mtn men that participated included 
C. Carson, Alex Godey, Dick Owens several of the Delaware trappers, and 
others. These guys had quit being small-time, more or less anonymous 
adventurer businessmen and were now "agents of westward expansion."  Some 
became famous as a result.

*After 1846, mtn men, with their personal and business connections amongst 
the tribes, became gradually less important and influential. They played an 
important role as Army scouts, guides, interpreters, etc. for another 40-50 
years, but their importance just slowly faded as the tribes lost their p[ower 
and the west got settled-up. But they didn't stop living in the hills with 
their Indian kin after 1840, nor did they stop trapping, nor did the beaver 
suddenly disappear, the Hawken brothers continued to sell their rifles (more 
than ever, in fact)--in other words, the mtn man lifestyle continued.

* The Donner Party set out in 1846, and this event is as good as any to 
symbolize the fact that the sod-busters had come west to stay.

But 1840 is not the best year to choose for the "end of the era". And the 
arguments that "well, we've always done it that way and that settles it" or 
"me and my compadres have spent a lot of time and money trying to..." also 
doesn't seem to be too convincing.  So, in my humble opinion, you ought to 
back it up 6 years and let the early argonauts, the dragoons and the Mexican 
War guys come play too.  It makes more sense, historically speaking.

Respectfully, 

John R. Sweet
Coplorado Springs

- --part1_104.2b75fecc.2bba75b8_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3D2 FAMILY=3D"SERIF" FACE=3D"=
Book Antiqua" LANG=3D"0">I'm more of an historian than a buckskinner, and mo=
st of my reenacting experience comes from having worked at Bent's Old Fort N=
HS as a park ranger, but I'm going to throw out a couple of points with rega=
rds to this Fur Trade Period discussion that's going on.<BR>
<BR>
1. First, we should remember that the idea of a "Fur Trade era" is just that=
- -- an idea.&nbsp; And parameters or time limits we draw around any period in=
 history are artificial and usually pretty arbitrary. <BR>
2.&nbsp; The fur trade never stopped, never even went into much of a decline=
, and of course continues to this day.&nbsp; Beaver prices continued to fall=
 and rise throughout the 19th c.&nbsp; Again, the beaver market did the same=
 in the 20th c. and into the 21st.<BR>
3.&nbsp; Mountain men didn't stop being mountain men in 1840-- guys were out=
 there trapping, trading and living with Indian wives for several more decad=
es.&nbsp; We can document Kit Carson, Bill Williams, et. Al. going on trappi=
ng expeditions in the 1850s.&nbsp; The names were the same, the mtns were th=
e same, the endeavor was the same, the technology was pretty much unchanged.=
<BR>
4.&nbsp; So was there a "mtn man/Rocky Mtn fur trade ear" at all?&nbsp; I th=
ink so. But it didn't end in 1840 ( the last year that Sublette sent out a s=
upply train). Rendezvous' were taking place at spots like Brown's Hole for y=
ears afterwards. And trading companies like Bent, St. Vrain &amp; Co. were s=
ending out trading wagons to meet up with Indians, trappers etc.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If you're looking for a good cut-off da=
te (the "end of an era", so to speak) then 1846 makes a whole lot more sense=
. Benard DeVoto's "Year of Decision" is a much better candidate for the foll=
owing reasons, among others:<BR>
<BR>
*Prior to 1846 the Far West was mostly "borderlands", up for grabs to the st=
rongest and most determined power that could control it, whether that be the=
 British Empire, the USA, Mexico, the Comanches-- whoever. But in 1846 the O=
regon dispute was resolved and the Mexican War started.&nbsp; These events s=
ettled the issue of which Euro/Euro-American power was going to rule the Far=
 West. Once that was decided, the defeat of the Indians and the civilization=
/economic development of the region was only a matter of time.<BR>
<BR>
*The Bear Flag revolt was in 1846 and the mtn men that participated included=
 C. Carson, Alex Godey, Dick Owens several of the Delaware trappers, and oth=
ers. These guys had quit being small-time, more or less anonymous adventurer=
 businessmen and were now "agents of westward expansion."&nbsp; Some became=20=
famous as a result.<BR>
<BR>
*After 1846, mtn men, with their personal and business connections amongst t=
he tribes, became gradually less important and influential. They played an i=
mportant role as Army scouts, guides, interpreters, etc. for another 40-50 y=
ears, but their importance just slowly faded as the tribes lost their p[ower=
 and the west got settled-up. But they didn't stop living in the hills with=20=
their Indian kin after 1840, nor did they stop trapping, nor did the beaver=20=
suddenly disappear, the Hawken brothers continued to sell their rifles (more=
 than ever, in fact)--in other words, the mtn man lifestyle continued.<BR>
<BR>
* The Donner Party set out in 1846, and this event is as good as any to symb=
olize the fact that the sod-busters had come west to stay.<BR>
<BR>
But 1840 is not the best year to choose for the "end of the era". And the ar=
guments that "well, we've always done it that way and that settles it" or "m=
e and my compadres have spent a lot of time and money trying to..." also doe=
sn't seem to be too convincing.&nbsp; So, in my humble opinion, you ought to=
 back it up 6 years and let the early argonauts, the dragoons and the Mexica=
n War guys come play too.&nbsp; It makes more sense, historically speaking.<=
BR>
<BR>
Respectfully, <BR>
<BR>
John R. Sweet<BR>
Coplorado Springs</FONT></HTML>

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