From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1193 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Monday, May 5 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1193 In this issue: -       MtMan-List: Barrel Markings -       Re: MtMan-List: Jim Bridger -       Re: MtMan-List: Barrel Markings -       Re: MtMan-List: Barrel Markings -       Re: MtMan-List: Barrel Markings -       Re: MtMan-List: Barrel Markings -       MtMan-List: Jim Bridger's Gravesite -       MtMan-List: Photo -       Re: MtMan-List: Photo -       Re: MtMan-List: Barrel Markings -       Re: MtMan-List: Jim Bridger -       Re: MtMan-List: Jim Bridger -       MtMan-List: Mem. day events? -       Re: MtMan-List: Mem. day events? -       Re: MtMan-List: Photo -       Re: MtMan-List: Photo -       MtMan-List: modern vs historic trapping ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 09:39:08 -0600 (MDT) From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: MtMan-List: Barrel Markings Dear List, I want my new transitional barrel to have the proper proof marks and or name on it. Does anyone know the correct proof marks, gun maker name or any good reference books to look at that would have barrel markings for a Transitional Kentucky rifle? Or should I just have my own name put on it as I am putting it together. I need clear photo's or description for my jeweler to follow. She knows that wrong or improperly placed marks are worse than no marks at all. We have to get them right. Thanks for any help or leads BB - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 May 2003 11:16:02 -0500 From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jim Bridger Dog, Have him call me Old Gabe is buried on the other side of the hill behind my house. John... At 10:07 AM 5/3/03, you wrote: >Hi Tom! Hope all is well with you and yours. A >friend of mine from Kentucky is planning a trip west, >and is passing through Kansas City. He was wondering >exactly where Jim Bridger was buried, and I couldn't >remember. I know it is in one of the suburbs, and >used to know the cemetery name, but it has escaped me. > Can you help me out? Thanks, Ron > >__________________________________ "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Benjamin Franklin 1759 - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 12:32:24 EDT From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Barrel Markings - --part1_148.10ad2b89.2be54918_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> I want my new transitional barrel to have the proper proof marks and or name on it. Does anyone know the correct proof marks, gun maker name or any good reference books to look at that would have barrel markings for a Transitional Kentucky rifle? >> Unless your gun was made in another country or used an imported barrel, it would not have had proof marks. If your gun is a copy of an original, then the markings on that gun should be used. Time period of manufacture is also a consideration. Transitional Kentucky is a rather generic term, not a specific one. We need more information..... - --part1_148.10ad2b89.2be54918_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>   I want my new transitional barrel= to have the proper proof marks and or
name on it.
   Does anyone know the correct proof marks, gun maker name or any= good
reference books to look at that would have barrel markings for a
Transitional Kentucky rifle? >>

Unless your gun was made in another country or used an imported barrel, it w= ould not have had proof marks.  If your gun is a copy of an original, t= hen the markings on that gun should be used.  Time period of manufactur= e is also a consideration.  Transitional Kentucky is a rather generic t= erm, not a specific one.

We need more information.....


 - --part1_148.10ad2b89.2be54918_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 10:40:04 -0600 (MDT) From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Barrel Markings It should represent an American made rifle built around 1795-1802 My character in our group is John Colter and he was recruited in Kentucky in 1803. Perhaps he couldn't have even afforded a rifle like this but its the one I will use. Does that help any? I can copy the marks off of an original if it's from that era and wasn't not too expensive for Colter to have own. Were imported barrels common? I don't know the first thing about rifle markings. I've seen just the gunmakers names on some of them. Thanks again for the help. These marks can really make a gun. bb >>> I want my new transitional barrel to have the proper proof marks and >>> or > name on it. > Does anyone know the correct proof marks, gun maker name or any good > reference books to look at that would have barrel markings for a > Transitional Kentucky rifle? >> > > Unless your gun was made in another country or used an imported barrel, it > would not have had proof marks. If your gun is a copy of an original, > then > the markings on that gun should be used. Time period of manufacture is > also > a consideration. Transitional Kentucky is a rather generic term, not a > specific one. > > We need more information..... > > > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 10:40:04 -0600 (MDT) From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Barrel Markings It should represent an American made rifle built around 1795-1802 My character in our group is John Colter and he was recruited in Kentucky in 1803. Perhaps he couldn't have even afforded a rifle like this but its the one I will use. Does that help any? I can copy the marks off of an original if it's from that era and wasn't not too expensive for Colter to have own. Were imported barrels common? I don't know the first thing about rifle markings. I've seen just the gunmakers names on some of them. Thanks again for the help. These marks can really make a gun. bb >>> I want my new transitional barrel to have the proper proof marks and >>> or > name on it. > Does anyone know the correct proof marks, gun maker name or any good > reference books to look at that would have barrel markings for a > Transitional Kentucky rifle? >> > > Unless your gun was made in another country or used an imported barrel, it > would not have had proof marks. If your gun is a copy of an original, > then > the markings on that gun should be used. Time period of manufacture is > also > a consideration. Transitional Kentucky is a rather generic term, not a > specific one. > > We need more information..... > > > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 13:53:41 EDT From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Barrel Markings - --part1_1f1.7f818d3.2be55c25_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A transitional rifle is one which exhibits both Germanic and American characteristics. The best known one of traceable lineage is the Edward Marshall rifle which accompanied him on his famous Indian walk in 1737. > It should represent an American made rifle built around 1795-1802 Your time period is far to late for transitional gun. The American style would have been fully developed by then. Whose kit are you using? What style is the kit? Is the barrel straight, tapered, swamped, or octagon to round. What lock does it have...make and style? > My character in our group is John Colter and he was recruited in Kentucky >in 1803. Perhaps he couldn't have even afforded a rifle like this but >its the one I will use. As I recall, this was still a wilderness area then. The "OverMountain Men" never even started to establish government in TN until around that time. While settlements existed, I doubt that any gunmakers would have been working in the area then. Guns would have come over the mountains from back east, or down the Ohio. The term "Kentucky rifle" never even came in existence until after the Battle of New Orleans and was popularized in a song written as a result of the volunteers who came from KY/TN to fight in the battle. Depending on all of the above, your gun might not even be correct as a "new" gun for the time period you indicate, but might have been carried as an heirloom gun made earlier. Still not enough information to tell. > I can copy the marks off of an original if it's from that era and >wasn't not too expensive for Colter to have own. Were imported barrels >common? Both barrels and locks were imported from France, Germany, England and Belgium. In many respects, it is no different than today, where you have merchants supplying parts to gunbuilders. Ketland exported locks to the US, as did others. Usually, a gunmaker signed his gun on the barrel and the lockmaker signed the lock. You need to be super detailed about your gun for us to even start to offer you any help. Also, proof marks were stamped into the barrel and its pretty hard to engrave a stamping. - --part1_1f1.7f818d3.2be55c25_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A transitional rifle is one which exhibits both German= ic and American characteristics.  The best known one of traceable linea= ge is the Edward Marshall rifle which accompanied him on his famous Indian w= alk in 1737.

>   It should represent an American made rifle built around 179= 5-1802

Your time period is far to late for transitional gun.  The American sty= le would have been fully developed by then.

Whose kit are you using?
What style is the kit?
Is the barrel straight, tapered, swamped, or octagon to round.
What lock does it have...make and style?

> My character in our group is John Colter and he was recruited in Kentuc= ky
>in 1803. Perhaps he couldn't have even afforded a rifle like this but >its the one I will use.

As I recall, this was still a wilderness area then.  The "OverMountain=20= Men" never even started to establish government in TN until around that time= .  While settlements existed, I doubt that any gunmakers would have bee= n working in the area then.  Guns would have come over the mountains fr= om back east, or down the Ohio.
The term "Kentucky rifle" never even came in existence until after the Battl= e of New Orleans and was popularized in a song written as a result of the vo= lunteers who came from KY/TN to fight in the battle.

Depending on all of the above, your gun might not even be correct as a "new"= gun for the time period you indicate, but might have been carried as an hei= rloom gun made earlier.  Still not enough information to tell.

>   I can copy the marks off of an original if it's from that e= ra and
>wasn't not too expensive for Colter to have own. Were imported barrels >common?

Both barrels and locks were imported from France, Germany, England and Belgi= um.  In many respects, it is no different than today, where you have me= rchants supplying parts to gunbuilders.  Ketland exported locks to the=20= US, as did others.  Usually, a gunmaker signed his gun on the  bar= rel and the lockmaker signed the lock.

You need to be super detailed about your gun for us to even start to offer y= ou any help.  Also, proof marks were stamped into the barrel and its pr= etty hard to engrave a stamping.
 - --part1_1f1.7f818d3.2be55c25_boundary-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 16:03:29 -0400 (EDT) From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (Jon Marinetti) Subject: MtMan-List: Jim Bridger's Gravesite Ron, Go to www.findagrave.com and type in his name in the search engine. He was reinterred into Jackson County, Missouri. Also has photos. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 18:10:28 -0400 (EDT) From: JONDMARINETTI@webtv.net (Jon Marinetti) Subject: MtMan-List: Photo Beaver Skinner at Fort Union Address:http://shopping.corbis.com/search/details.asp?imageid=11435694 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from Michigan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 16:38:59 -0600 (MDT) From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Photo > Yes, thank you Jon, that would be my ugly mug. That is my trade gun I got my gobbler with Easter morning. Fort Union Rendezvous is always the third full weekend of June and yet I am wearing my capote that year. It was a cold,wet and drizzly weekend as I recall. Always a great time at Fort Union! BB > Beaver Skinner at Fort Union > Address:http://shopping.corbis.com/search/details.asp?imageid=11435694 > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > from Michigan > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 16:49:58 -0600 (MDT) From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Barrel Markings I assume flintlocks were passed down in families back then and since Colter came from a distinguished family from Virginia he might own a Transitional River of that type. I had my fusee engraved with London, JB and a proof mark with the crown and P in an oval. Not stamped, engraved and it looks beautiful and good! I just need to know a basic mark or two for a weapon of that time built in America in Virginia. Should I just engrave my name in it? It's a pecatonica kit with a straight .54 barrel and a Davis Yaeger Lock. But didn't many gunmakers make both the lock and barrel and the whole gun for that matter? Is that any better info? BB Sorry about the double post, too. > A transitional rifle is one which exhibits both Germanic and American > characteristics. The best known one of traceable lineage is the Edward > Marshall rifle which accompanied him on his famous Indian walk in 1737. > >> It should represent an American made rifle built around 1795-1802 > > Your time period is far to late for transitional gun. The American style > would have been fully developed by then. > > Whose kit are you using? > What style is the kit? > Is the barrel straight, tapered, swamped, or octagon to round. > What lock does it have...make and style? > >> My character in our group is John Colter and he was recruited in >> Kentucky >>in 1803. Perhaps he couldn't have even afforded a rifle like this but >>its the one I will use. > > As I recall, this was still a wilderness area then. The "OverMountain > Men" > never even started to establish government in TN until around that time. > While settlements existed, I doubt that any gunmakers would have been > working > in the area then. Guns would have come over the mountains from back east, > or > down the Ohio. > The term "Kentucky rifle" never even came in existence until after the > Battle > of New Orleans and was popularized in a song written as a result of the > volunteers who came from KY/TN to fight in the battle. > > Depending on all of the above, your gun might not even be correct as a > "new" > gun for the time period you indicate, but might have been carried as an > heirloom gun made earlier. Still not enough information to tell. > >> I can copy the marks off of an original if it's from that era and >>wasn't not too expensive for Colter to have own. Were imported barrels >>common? > > Both barrels and locks were imported from France, Germany, England and > Belgium. In many respects, it is no different than today, where you have > merchants supplying parts to gunbuilders. Ketland exported locks to the > US, > as did others. Usually, a gunmaker signed his gun on the barrel and the > lockmaker signed the lock. > > You need to be super detailed about your gun for us to even start to offer > you any help. Also, proof marks were stamped into the barrel and its > pretty > hard to engrave a stamping. > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 17:13:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Ronald Schrotter Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jim Bridger John, my friend is Buffalo Chip, from Louisville, and I bet he will be glad to call you. Thanks, Dog - --- John Kramer wrote: > Dog, > > Have him call me Old Gabe is buried on the other > side of the hill behind my > house. > > John... > > > At 10:07 AM 5/3/03, you wrote: > >Hi Tom! Hope all is well with you and yours. A > >friend of mine from Kentucky is planning a trip > west, > >and is passing through Kansas City. He was > wondering > >exactly where Jim Bridger was buried, and I > couldn't > >remember. I know it is in one of the suburbs, and > >used to know the cemetery name, but it has escaped > me. > > Can you help me out? Thanks, Ron > > > >__________________________________ > > "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what > to have for > lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the > vote." > > Benjamin Franklin 1759 > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 May 2003 10:51:52 -0500 From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Jim Bridger Dog, Not a problem, he's got the number. John... At 07:13 PM 5/3/03, you wrote: >John, my friend is Buffalo Chip, from Louisville, and >I bet he will be glad to call you. Thanks, Dog >--- John Kramer wrote: > > Dog, > > > > Have him call me Old Gabe is buried on the other > > side of the hill behind my > > house. > > > > John... > > > > > > At 10:07 AM 5/3/03, you wrote: > > >Hi Tom! Hope all is well with you and yours. A > > >friend of mine from Kentucky is planning a trip > > west, > > >and is passing through Kansas City. He was > > wondering > > >exactly where Jim Bridger was buried, and I > > couldn't > > >remember. I know it is in one of the suburbs, and > > >used to know the cemetery name, but it has escaped > > me. > > > Can you help me out? Thanks, Ron > > > > > >__________________________________ > > > > "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what > > to have for > > lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the > > vote." > > > > Benjamin Franklin 1759 > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. >http://search.yahoo.com > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Use it up, wear it out, make do, or do without. John Kramer - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 May 2003 19:51:51 -0500 From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: Mem. day events? A lady member of my little group is looking for a ronny to attend over the Memorial Day weekend. She is wanting to travel from Wisconsin to have some pre-1840 fun, preferably in sunny south. Write Kathi at: kmartin@netconx.net Frank G. Fusco Mountain Home, AR http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ozarksmuzzleloaders/ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 07:46:08 -0600 From: Ole Jensen Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Mem. day events? on 5/4/03 6:51 PM, Frank Fusco at Rifleman1776@centurytel.net wrote: > A lady member of my little group is looking for a ronny to attend over > the Memorial Day weekend. She is wanting to travel from Wisconsin to have > some pre-1840 fun, preferably in sunny south. > Write Kathi at: kmartin@netconx.net > Frank G. Fusco > Mountain Home, AR > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ozarksmuzzleloaders/ > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html Frank, If she has a period camp and can dress the part, I am holding a Rendezvous at Fort Fuenaventura in Ogden Utah. the dates are May 22 through May 26. The cost is 30.00 per camp. Ole - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 14:31:28 +0000 From: "Sean Boushie" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Photo These might help, Along with the modern way, I like to get "primitive" They are full of info, actual journals and lists of what actually went to Rendezevous. http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html http://www.furtrade.org/ http://www.pinedaleonline.com/MMMuseum/ this is the canada version http://www.canadiana.org/eco/english/ >From: beaverboy@sofast.net >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Photo >Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 16:38:59 -0600 (MDT) > > > Yes, thank you Jon, that would be my ugly mug. > That is my trade gun I got my gobbler with Easter morning. > Fort Union Rendezvous is always the third full weekend of June and yet I >am wearing my capote that year. It was a cold,wet and drizzly weekend as >I recall. Always a great time at Fort Union! > BB > > > Beaver Skinner at Fort Union > > Address:http://shopping.corbis.com/search/details.asp?imageid=11435694 > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > from Michigan > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > ---------------------- > > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 15:11:51 +0000 From: "Sean Boushie" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Photo OOps, Sorry to the list I replied to teh wrong message.... A lady was asking me about furtrade research through the Trappers Assn.. Never mind. >From: "Sean Boushie" >Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Photo >Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 14:31:28 +0000 > > >These might help, > >Along with the modern way, I like to get "primitive" They are full of info, >actual journals and lists of what actually went to Rendezevous. > >http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/amm.html > >http://www.furtrade.org/ > >http://www.pinedaleonline.com/MMMuseum/ > >this is the canada version > >http://www.canadiana.org/eco/english/ > > > > > > >>From: beaverboy@sofast.net >>Reply-To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com >>Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Photo >>Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 16:38:59 -0600 (MDT) >> >> > Yes, thank you Jon, that would be my ugly mug. >> That is my trade gun I got my gobbler with Easter morning. >> Fort Union Rendezvous is always the third full weekend of June and yet >>I >>am wearing my capote that year. It was a cold,wet and drizzly weekend as >>I recall. Always a great time at Fort Union! >> BB >> >> > Beaver Skinner at Fort Union >> > Address:http://shopping.corbis.com/search/details.asp?imageid=11435694 >> > >> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> > from Michigan >> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> > >> > >> > ---------------------- >> > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html >> > >> >> >>---------------------- >>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > >_________________________________________________________________ >MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 13:23:42 -0500 From: "Monte Holder" Subject: MtMan-List: modern vs historic trapping I have been doing some reading on trapping and about dying and waxing the traps. I got to wondering how/if this was done by the men on the rivers in the heyday of fur trade. And how are the drowning sets used now different from the ones used today (or are they same)? I'm thinking about those slides that lock the trap on the cable/wire. Monte Holder Saline Co MO - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #1193 ******************************** - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.