From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1238 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Thursday, September 11 2003 Volume 01 : Number 1238 In this issue: -       Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags -       Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags -       Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags -       RE: MtMan-List: Sparking of dogs... -       Re: MtMan-List: Sparking of dogs... -       RE: MtMan-List: Sparking of dogs... -       MtMan-List: Randy's Aussie dogs -       RE: MtMan-List: Randy's Aussie dogs -       RE: MtMan-List: Sparking of dogs... -       Re: MtMan-List: Sparking of dogs... -       MtMan-List: Sparking of Montana... -       Re: MtMan-List: Sparking of dogs... -       Re: MtMan-List: Randy's Aussie dogs -       Re: MtMan-List: Randy's Aussie dogs -       Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 22:43:16 -0600 From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags Dale I will try to over look your Gomer Pyle sarcasm because you have some good points I was not aware of. > The drawing that you are talking about was done by G. R. Vernam, one of > the authors of the book They Saddle the West. Drawings are used by used > both anthropologists and archaeologists because they show better what > they are trying to show than a photo can. The question is how accurate are the drawings. I could be proven wrong but it is my understanding that the buckle type cinch rings are relatively modern inventions. The old timers tied the cinch knot. The saddle Mr Vernam drew has the buckle type cinch rings. Also the saddle is full rigged which without a back cinch can be pretty scary to ride down hills. The point being that he may have drawn a generalized picture not a carefully researched and detailed drawing. This picture was going to be used to justify using monkey faced taps. I am simply pointing out that it just does not appear to be that great of a source. Archaeologists draw the > recovered artifacts, not for you and me to look at, but so other > researchers can see the artifact better. The Smithsonian book The Horse > in Blackfoot Indian Culture uses line drawing the same way that Vernam > used them in his book. Does that make the book of less value for > research. You said there are buckles on that saddle Vernam drew, > however I see no buckles on the saddle that is pictured. It's possible > to find lots more pictures (photos and or drawings) of Mexican saddles > if we must, but I think we all know what they look like. Were they used > widely. Lets see what the Smithsoinan has to say about that. The Horse > in Blackfoot Indian Culture on page 94, note number 52 regarding the > text. "Other Plains and Plateau tribes appear to have followed the > practice of using Spanish or American saddles whenever they could > procure them. Lewis and Clark found some Spanish saddles among the > Lemhi Shoshoni in 1805. (Coues, 1893, vol. 2 pp. 520, 569). Jacpues > d'Eglise reported "saddles ...... in Mexican style" used by the Mandan > in 1792 (Nasitir, 1927, p. 58). Scattered through the records of the > American Fur Co. (papers in the N. Y. Historical Society) are listings > of saddles bought by Pratte, Choutear and Co. of St. Louis. Sufficient > quantities are listed to indicate that the saddles were purchased for > the Indian trade and not merely for the use of field employees of the > company. Maximilian (1833) said that the Mandan 'sometimes obtain > saddles from the whites, which they line and ornament with red and blue > cloth' (Maximillian, 1906, vol. 23 p. 345). These may have been the > California saddle type, which Marcy termed the favorite of the mountain > men (Marcy, 1859, pp. 118-120), and which seems to have been pictured > in a number of Kurs' drawings of fur traders and a few Indians of the > Upper Missouri in 1851-52 (Kurtz 1937)." Once and for all we all know that Spanish style saddles were in the mountains. I did not know they were a trade item with the Indians. They were rather expensive but I suppose some Indians could probably afford to buy them as well as raid their way into them. Is the term "California style" yours or theirs and what differentiates it from another style? Ewers also says in the same > book on page 93 "We know the Piegan were familiar with Spanish saddles > at least as early as 1787, when David Thompson saw a number of saddles a > Piegan war party had brouight back from a raid on a Spanish party far to > the south (Thompson, 1916, p. 371). He goes on to say in the same book > that the Indians tried to adopt as much of the white man's saddlery as > they could afford. If they couldn't afford a trade saddle, perhaps > (Ewer's words, not mine) they could at least aquire strong, long wearing > trade materials for rigging their own native saddles. Hmmmmm. That > sounds like perhaps buckles and cinch rings and other metal objects as > well as comerical tanned riggin. As Gomer Pyle would say, "Gol---ly". > At anyrate, it took me a lot less time to find this information than it > did to type it out, so I don't intend to do it very often. Did you notice the process that Indians had to go through to build a ring out of rawhide before they got metal rings? Quite a process. From this > knowledge that I just aquired from the Smithsonian Bureau of American > Ethonology I have arrived at a humble opinion that there were quite a > few Spanish, Mexican and or California saddles in the mountains. > Furthermore, I would expect that there were also numbers of American > (flat, what we now call English) saddles there at the same time. So > there wouldn't be a thing wrong with riding a flat saddle with iron > stirrups, or as far as that goes, an Indian pad saddle with iron > stirrups. What about tapaderos? Well, I reckon that if Spanish/Mexican > saddles were made with any style of tapedero, I expect being connected > to the saddle they made it to the mountains also. That is, unless the > Smithsonian doesn't know what they are talking about, then all bets are > off. Oh please. One more thing. Do you ride your horse with a bit, or a rope to > the jaw? What kind of a bit? I'd say bit and bridle styles could cause > more discussion than something as simple as taps or hooded stirrups. On period rides I use a snaffle or simple curb similar to what you see in Kurtz and Miller and on the trade lists. I may someday play with the Indian rope to the jaw just to try it out. It is probable that early trappers may have used all Indian gear. For a bridle I have not seen anything to make me believe that they did not look very similar to the ones we use today. Wynn - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2003 23:10:02 -0600 From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C377F0.AA0645A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle BagsWynn, You ain't makin any sence, I can't follow what you are trying to say. Ole I am sorry Ole I will type slower. No really, I am jumping from subject = to subject and fighting several different arguments at the same time so = I apologize if it is hard to follow. Here is my point. A year ago on this list folks talked about how = carefully they documented the stuff in their shooting pouches. I was = impressed since I figure its a good place to carry TP and cameras. At = Bridger I did the horse gear demo and those saddle don't show anywhere = near the concern to authenticity. They don't look like the saddles in = Miller or Kurtz, or what is written about them in the journals or = ledgers. And I can't see why we aren't a bit more concerned about it. = It appears more like we are justifying what is being used in the face = of evidence to the contrary. I just don't understand it.=20 Wynn - ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C377F0.AA0645A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
Wynn,
You=20 ain't makin any sence, I can't follow what you are trying to=20 say.
Ole
I am sorry Ole I will type = slower.  No really,=20 I am jumping from subject to subject and fighting several different = arguments at=20 the same time so I apologize if it is hard to follow.
 
Here is my point.  A year ago on = this list=20 folks talked about how carefully they documented the stuff in their = shooting=20 pouches.  I was impressed since I figure its a good place to carry = TP and=20 cameras.  At Bridger I did the horse gear demo and those saddle = don't show=20 anywhere near the concern to authenticity.  They don't look = like=20 the saddles in Miller or Kurtz, or what is written about them in = the=20 journals or ledgers.  And I can't see why we aren't a bit more = concerned=20 about it.  It appears more like we are justifying what is being = used=20 in  the face of evidence to the contrary.  I just don't = understand=20 it. 
 
Wynn
 

 


- ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C377F0.AA0645A0-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 08:02:20 -0600 From: Ole Jensen Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. - --MS_Mac_OE_3146112141_43832_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Wynn, My reserch paper was writen on this subject, I sen't it to be published by Bill but it has gotten lost so I will have to send him a new copy. The reserch was done with the assistance of the Smithsonian, Millers drawings and Government archives. Ole Wynn, You ain't makin any sence, I can't follow what you are trying to say. Ole I am sorry Ole I will type slower. No really, I am jumping from subject to subject and fighting several different arguments at the same time so I apologize if it is hard to follow. Here is my point. A year ago on this list folks talked about how carefully they documented the stuff in their shooting pouches. I was impressed since I figure its a good place to carry TP and cameras. At Bridger I did the horse gear demo and those saddle don't show anywhere near the concern to authenticity. They don't look like the saddles in Miller or Kurtz, or what is written about them in the journals or ledgers. And I can't see why we aren't a bit more concerned about it. It appears more like we are justifying what is being used in the face of evidence to the contrary. I just don't understand it. Wynn - --MS_Mac_OE_3146112141_43832_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags Wynn,
My reserch paper was writen on this subject, I sen't it to be published by = Bill but it has gotten lost so I will have to send him a new copy.
The reserch was done with the assistance of the Smithsonian, Millers drawin= gs and Government archives.
Ole
Wynn,
You ain't makin any sence, I can't follow what you are trying to say.
Ole
I am sorry Ole I will type slower.=  No really, I am jumping from subject to subject and fighting several = different arguments at the same time so I apologize if it is hard to follow.=

Here is my point.  A year ago on thi= s list folks talked about how carefully they documented the stuff in their s= hooting pouches.  I was impressed since I figure its a good place to ca= rry TP and cameras.  At Bridger I did the horse gear demo and those sad= dle don't show anywhere near the concern to authenticity.  They don't l= ook like the saddles in Miller or Kurtz, or what is written about them in th= e journals or ledgers.  And I can't see why we aren't a bit more concer= ned about it.  It appears more like we are justifying what is being use= d in  the face of evidence to the contrary.  I just don't understa= nd it.

Wynn







- --MS_Mac_OE_3146112141_43832_MIME_Part-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:22:37 -0600 From: "Angela Gottfred" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Sparking of dogs... "Randal Bublitz" rjbublitz@earthlink.net wrote: > I have by chance a copy of a print by CM Russel 'father desmet's first meeting with the flathead > indians'. <...> This is my documention for my dogs. Sorry if I'm repeating what other folks have already said; I'm on the digest version of the list, so I'm a little behind the rest of you. There is one small problem with using this painting as documentation: It was made in 1925, 85 years after the event it depicts. (http://users.skynet.be/pater.de.smet/pj-e/pagina56.htm) And Russell can't possibly have witnessed it, since he was born in 1864. (http://www.tfaoi.com/newsmu/nmus26p.htm) It can be really hard to tell which paintings were made by eyewitnesses to the fur trade, and which were made well after the fact by historic artists, especially since many books reproduce them side by side without even telling you the artist's name. If you do find out the artist's name, then it takes further research to find out whether they were painting before or after the fact. I compiled a list of fur trade artists and fur trade historical artists earlier this year; if you're interested, it was posted to the files section of the h-voyageur mailing list (www.groups.yahoo.com/group/h-voyageur). However, I probably missed Charlie Russell-- I never realized he did any fur trade subjects, he's best known as the cowboys' artist. So I might do a revision soon. Your very humble & most obedient servant, Angela Gottfred - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 12:27:05 -0500 From: John Kramer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sparking of dogs... Smithsonian magazine had an excellent article on the native dog of America (and most of the rest of the world it seems) a couple of years back. John... At 09:39 PM 9/10/03, you wrote: >A lot of us in this sport also like good sporting dogs. I know >Newfoundland retrievers were around pre-1840, as Lewis and Clark brought >one with them (Seabisquit or Seaman?). One of my favorite stories from >the journals is when the dog made a water retrieve of a wouded deer that >went into the Missouri near Great Falls (MT). First thing the dog did is >drown the deer, then bring it to shore. HHHMmmm. Maybe a bigger one >would retrieve elk? > >What other breeds were around then that are "period correct?" My golden >Retrievers don't fit, the breed wasn't invented until a number of dogs >were cross bred (at least once with bloodhounds) to result in the breed >being established in the late 1800s (1880 or so). > >Maybe we need a skill test for dogs...like retrieving wounded deer from >rivers. By the way, Newfoundlands were bred to retrieve overboard >fisherman off the Grand Banks. > >Sparks If it ain't exactly right, it's wrong. john Take a look at all the prime plunder being auctioned for the benefit of the American Mountain Men http://amm-auction.com/ - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 10:35:46 -0700 From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Sparking of dogs... Angela, I realize Charlie's time frame, etc.... I was just offering a personal antecdote. Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word documentation. I didn't get my dogs because of the painting, just thought it was neat that they look like they could have modeled for the painting. If you ever get the chance go to the CM Russell museum in Great Falls, MT. It is very interesting. YMHS, Randy > [Original Message] > From: Angela Gottfred > To: > Date: 9/11/03 8:23:45 AM > Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Sparking of dogs... > > "Randal Bublitz" rjbublitz@earthlink.net wrote: > > > I have by chance a copy of a print by CM Russel 'father desmet's first > meeting with the flathead > > indians'. <...> This is my documention for my dogs. > > Sorry if I'm repeating what other folks have already said; I'm on the > digest version of the list, so I'm a little behind the rest of you. > There is one small problem with using this painting as documentation: It > was made in 1925, 85 years after the event it depicts. > (http://users.skynet.be/pater.de.smet/pj-e/pagina56.htm) > And Russell can't possibly have witnessed it, since he was born in 1864. > (http://www.tfaoi.com/newsmu/nmus26p.htm) > > It can be really hard to tell which paintings were made by eyewitnesses > to the fur trade, and which were made well after the fact by historic > artists, especially since many books reproduce them side by side without > even telling you the artist's name. If you do find out the artist's > name, then it takes further research to find out whether they were > painting before or after the fact. I compiled a list of fur trade > artists and fur trade historical artists earlier this year; if you're > interested, it was posted to the files section of the h-voyageur mailing > list (www.groups.yahoo.com/group/h-voyageur). However, I probably missed > Charlie Russell-- I never realized he did any fur trade subjects, he's > best known as the cowboys' artist. So I might do a revision soon. > > Your very humble & most obedient servant, > Angela Gottfred > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 15:19:11 -0700 From: "busterize" Subject: MtMan-List: Randy's Aussie dogs I too, have an ACD, a red bitch, small, but tough. Wouldn't have any other breed after this one. Surprised but pleased they appear to have landed here so early in this country's history. Geri - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 15:25:56 -0700 From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Randy's Aussie dogs Geri...... I didn't say they did...I just said they look like any wild dog... as they were bred from dingos. The ACD wasn't bred until the later 1800's in australia. They are great dogs. Randy > [Original Message] > From: busterize > To: > Date: 9/11/03 3:19:18 PM > Subject: MtMan-List: Randy's Aussie dogs > > I too, have an ACD, a red bitch, small, but tough. Wouldn't have any other > breed after this one. Surprised but pleased they appear to have landed here > so early in this country's history. > > Geri > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 17:15:06 -0600 (MDT) From: beaverboy@sofast.net Subject: RE: MtMan-List: Sparking of dogs... As I work out of Great Falls, Montana, I can tell you that Charlie Russell is also know as the indian artist. I'm not the biggest fan of his, preferring O.C. Seltzer myself, but he was a great artist. I read once he did more prints of indians then of any other subject. I'm pretty sure he was adopted by one of the tribes but don't remember which one. There is even a photo of him dressed in indian garb. I know he drank like he was an indian. bb > Charlie Russell-- I never realized he did any fur trade subjects, he's > best known as the cowboys' artist. So I might do a revision soon. > > Your very humble & most obedient servant, > Angela Gottfred - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 17:52:53 -0600 From: James and Sue Stone Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sparking of dogs... - --------------050108040903080603000508 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I love Australian Shephards and have had a couple myself. One seemingly purebred and the other blue heeler crossed. I saw on Discovery TV or some such a few years ago where they talked about what dogs revert to when they weren't bred for specific physical characteristics (especially in cities). They end up being (western) medium sized dogs with slick hair, they don't bark much, and they only have one litter a year. They say that's a worldwide phenomenon (China, Australia, et c.). I specified "western" medium size because as I was preparing to feed what I call a "medium sized" 60-70 pound golden retriever, I made the mistake of reading the dog food label. The food was formulated especially for sporting or active dogs. I looked up the medium sized dog serving size and they made the mistake of defining what THEY called medium sized...35#! Hell, dogs that small are usually carried in vest pockets to keep the squirrels from running them ragged! Sparks Randal Bublitz wrote: >Sparks, I have a pair of Australian Cattle dogs. These dogs are also known >as heelers (red and blue). I have 2, bro and sis, one is a blue the other >a red. I have by chance a copy of a print by CM Russel 'father desmet's >first meeting with the flathead indians'. [do a googler search for 'Father >desmet's.... and you'll see this pic] It show's an indian village with two >dogs in foreground. I'll be dipped if these dogs don't look just like my >two dogs. This is my documention for my dogs. Heelers were bred from >Dingo stock in Australia. I think many wild dogs have similar features, >etc... so my heelers look like the dogs Russel saw living with the >indians. My dogs have done a couple hundred miles of canoe trips, love to >camp with us, tend to stick close by, etc.... There is an australian >cattle dog web site too....check them out. Randy > > > > >>What other breeds were around then that are "period correct?" >> >>Sparks >> >> >> > > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > - --------------050108040903080603000508 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I love Australian Shephards and have had a couple myself.  One seemingly purebred and the other blue heeler crossed.
I saw on Discovery TV or some such a few years ago where they talked about what dogs revert to when they weren't bred for specific physical characteristics (especially in cities).  They end up being (western) medium sized dogs with slick hair, they don't bark much, and they only have one litter a year.  They say that's a worldwide phenomenon (China, Australia, et c.).  I specified "western" medium size because as I was preparing to feed what I call a "medium sized" 60-70 pound golden retriever, I made the mistake of reading the dog food label.  The food was formulated especially for sporting or active dogs.  I looked up the medium sized dog serving size and they made the mistake of defining what THEY called medium sized...35#!  Hell, dogs that small are usually carried in vest pockets to keep the squirrels from running them ragged!
Sparks


Randal Bublitz wrote:
Sparks, I have a pair of Australian Cattle dogs.  These dogs are also known
as heelers (red and blue).  I have 2, bro and sis, one is a blue the other
a red.  I have by chance a copy of a print by CM Russel 'father desmet's
first meeting with the flathead indians'.  [do a googler search for 'Father
desmet's.... and you'll see this pic]  It show's an indian village with two
dogs in foreground.  I'll be dipped if these dogs don't look just like my
two dogs.  This is my documention for my dogs.  Heelers were bred from
Dingo stock in Australia.  I think many wild dogs have similar features,
etc...  so my heelers look like the dogs Russel saw living with the
indians.  My dogs have done a couple hundred miles of canoe trips, love to
camp with us, tend to stick close by, etc....   There is an australian
cattle dog web site too....check them out.   Randy


  
What other breeds were around then that are "period correct?"  

Sparks

    




- ----------------------
hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html

- --------------050108040903080603000508-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 17:58:16 -0600 From: James and Sue Stone Subject: MtMan-List: Sparking of Montana... I love Montana, and own property in Idaho near Sacajawea's birthplace just 10 miles or so as the crow flies over the bitterroot mountains. As long as you are touring Montana and looking at paintings (i.e. at the CM Russel gallery), swing by the State Capitol in Helena. I can't remember if it is the House or Senate chambers, but the 30' high mural they have on the wall is of Custer's Last Stand! Is that a political statement, or just coincidence? Sparks - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 17:59:54 -0600 From: James and Sue Stone Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Sparking of dogs... John, You and I are working from the same database on this one! sparks John Kramer wrote: > Smithsonian magazine had an excellent article on the native dog of > America (and most of the rest of the world it seems) a couple of years > back. > > John... > > > > At 09:39 PM 9/10/03, you wrote: > >> A lot of us in this sport also like good sporting dogs. I know >> Newfoundland retrievers were around pre-1840, as Lewis and Clark >> brought one with them (Seabisquit or Seaman?). One of my favorite >> stories from the journals is when the dog made a water retrieve of a >> wouded deer that went into the Missouri near Great Falls (MT). First >> thing the dog did is drown the deer, then bring it to shore. >> HHHMmmm. Maybe a bigger one would retrieve elk? >> >> What other breeds were around then that are "period correct?" My >> golden Retrievers don't fit, the breed wasn't invented until a number >> of dogs were cross bred (at least once with bloodhounds) to result in >> the breed being established in the late 1800s (1880 or so). >> >> Maybe we need a skill test for dogs...like retrieving wounded deer >> from rivers. By the way, Newfoundlands were bred to retrieve >> overboard fisherman off the Grand Banks. >> >> Sparks > > > If it ain't exactly right, it's wrong. > john > > Take a look at all the prime plunder being auctioned for the benefit > of the American Mountain Men > http://amm-auction.com/ > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:37:25 -0600 From: James and Sue Stone Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Randy's Aussie dogs Be sure to consult a knowledgeable source before cross breeding. I ended up with what I thought might be an ideal duck dog...Australian Shephard and Golden Retriever. I was expecting a dog who would round uup ducks and herd them by me on slow days, then retrieve what I shot. My first surprised was the dog's color. I swear, if she wasn't moving on the marsh, even if you knew exactly where she was, and even if she was less than 50 feet away, she would disappear. Talk about natural camo! Unfortunately, she neither liked to retrieve nor herd ducks. I coulda got rich off that line! poor sparks busterize wrote: >I too, have an ACD, a red bitch, small, but tough. Wouldn't have any other >breed after this one. Surprised but pleased they appear to have landed here >so early in this country's history. > >Geri > > > >---------------------- >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 19:01:53 -0700 From: "Randal Bublitz" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Randy's Aussie dogs Just for clarification..... Australian cattle dogs are different than Australian shepards. The ACD was bred for herding cattle, the sheppard for herding sheep. They are both good , hearty dogs, as they were bred to withstand hard work in the harsh australian outback. Randy > [Original Message] > From: James and Sue Stone > To: > Date: 9/11/03 6:39:47 PM > Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Randy's Aussie dogs > > Be sure to consult a knowledgeable source before cross breeding. I > ended up with what I thought might be an ideal duck dog...Australian > Shephard and Golden Retriever. I was expecting a dog who would round > uup ducks and herd them by me on slow days, then retrieve what I shot. > My first surprised was the dog's color. I swear, if she wasn't moving > on the marsh, even if you knew exactly where she was, and even if she > was less than 50 feet away, she would disappear. Talk about natural > camo! Unfortunately, she neither liked to retrieve nor herd ducks. I > coulda got rich off that line! > poor sparks > > busterize wrote: > > >I too, have an ACD, a red bitch, small, but tough. Wouldn't have any other > >breed after this one. Surprised but pleased they appear to have landed here > >so early in this country's history. > > > >Geri > > > > > > > >---------------------- > >hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 20:37:21 -0600 From: "Wynn Ormond" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_008C_01C378A4.803DA880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle BagsOle I have heard about this paper for a = long time (from you) and I look forward to reading it. Wynn ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ole Jensen=20 To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com=20 Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 8:02 AM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags Wynn, My reserch paper was writen on this subject, I sen't it to be = published by Bill but it has gotten lost so I will have to send him a = new copy.=20 The reserch was done with the assistance of the Smithsonian, Millers = drawings and Government archives. Ole Wynn, You ain't makin any sence, I can't follow what you are trying to = say. Ole I am sorry Ole I will type slower. No really, I am jumping from = subject to subject and fighting several different arguments at the same = time so I apologize if it is hard to follow. Here is my point. A year ago on this list folks talked about how = carefully they documented the stuff in their shooting pouches. I was = impressed since I figure its a good place to carry TP and cameras. At = Bridger I did the horse gear demo and those saddle don't show anywhere = near the concern to authenticity. They don't look like the saddles in = Miller or Kurtz, or what is written about them in the journals or = ledgers. And I can't see why we aren't a bit more concerned about it. = It appears more like we are justifying what is being used in the face = of evidence to the contrary. I just don't understand it.=20 Wynn - ------=_NextPart_000_008C_01C378A4.803DA880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: MtMan-List: Fw: Saddle Bags
Ole I have heard about this paper for a = long time=20 (from you) and I look forward to reading it.
 
Wynn
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ole=20 Jensen
Sent: Thursday, September 11, = 2003 8:02=20 AM
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fw: = Saddle=20 Bags

Wynn,
My reserch paper was writen on this subject, I = sen't=20 it to be published by Bill but it has gotten lost so I will have to = send him a=20 new copy.
The reserch was done with the assistance of the = Smithsonian,=20 Millers drawings and Government archives.
Ole
Wynn,
You ain't makin = any sence,=20 I can't follow what you are trying to say.
Ole
I am sorry Ole I will type slower. =  No really,=20 I am jumping from subject to subject and fighting several different=20 arguments at the same time so I apologize if it is hard to=20 follow.

Here = is my point.=20  A year ago on this list folks talked about how carefully they=20 documented the stuff in their shooting pouches.  I was = impressed since=20 I figure its a good place to carry TP and cameras.  At Bridger = I did=20 the horse gear demo and those saddle don't show anywhere near the = concern to=20 authenticity.  They don't look like the saddles in Miller or = Kurtz, or=20 what is written about them in the journals or ledgers.  And I = can't see=20 why we aren't a bit more concerned about it.  It appears more = like we=20 are justifying what is being used in  the face of evidence to = the=20 contrary.  I just don't understand it. =

Wynn

=







- ------=_NextPart_000_008C_01C378A4.803DA880-- - ---------------------- hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #1238 ******************************** - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.