From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest)
To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com
Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #1317
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hist_text-digest      Tuesday, February 17 2004      Volume 01 : Number 1317



In this issue:

-       Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo
-       MtMan-List: Indian contribution to demise of buffalo
-       Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo
-       Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to demise of buffalo
-       Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo
-       Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo
-       MtMan-List: Speaking of books...
-       Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to demise of buffalo
-       Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to demise of buffalo
-       Re: MtMan-List: Speaking of books...
-       Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo
-       Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo
-       MtMan-List: Bison belts--point of clarificationi
-       Re: MtMan-List: Bison belts--point of clarificationi
-       MtMan-List: Safety Pins
-       Re: MtMan-List: Safety Pins
-       Re: MtMan-List: Safety Pins
-       Re: MtMan-List: Safety Pins
-       Re: MtMan-List: Safety Pins

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 08:47:03 -0800
From: JW Stephens <lray@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo

The tragic flaw of the bison is that it is so tasty.

B'st'rd (my little contribution to the learned discourse)



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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 09:22:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Lee Teter <leeteter@yahoo.com>
Subject: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to demise of buffalo

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I copied my writing about the buffalo. It was published in 1996 or 97 with a couple paintings and a print or two. It is about seven pages long. A request was made for the info, but I don't know if I should post such a big file on this site. Can anyone advise me?
 
Lee Teter


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- --0-2077815024-1076952166=:2990
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<DIV>I copied my writing&nbsp;about the buffalo. It was published in 1996 or 97 with a couple paintings and a print or two. It is about seven pages long. A request was made for the info, but I don't know if I should post such a big file on this site. Can anyone advise me?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Lee Teter</DIV><p><hr SIZE=1>
Do you Yahoo!?<br>
Yahoo! Finance: <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=22055/*http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html">Get your refund fast by filing online</a>
- --0-2077815024-1076952166=:2990--

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 12:44:24 EST
From: SWcushing@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo

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In a message dated 2/16/04 7:02:03 AM, leeteter@yahoo.com writes:


> by=A0those who don't have the nerve to put Isenburg's book out where it ca=
n=20
> be read.
>=20
Oddly enough, it took me several attempts to find the book at Amazon. Using=20
anything with "buffalo" in it (including the title) wouldn't take me there.=20=
I=20
finally found it with just using the authors name.
Anyway.... I ordered the book and after having wiped out the herd in Wallace=
,=20
KS, (I shot one) I do look forward to reading it.
Magpie=20

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" FACE=3D"Gen=
eva" FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" SIZE=3D"2"><BR>
In a message dated 2/16/04 7:02:03 AM, leeteter@yahoo.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE CITE STYLE=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;=20=
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px" TYPE=3D"CITE"></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0=
00000" FACE=3D"Geneva" FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" SIZE=3D"2">by=A0those who don't=20=
have the nerve to put Isenburg's book out where it can be read.<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" FACE=3D"Geneva" FAMILY=3D"SANSSE=
RIF" SIZE=3D"2"><BR>
Oddly enough, it took me several attempts to find the book at Amazon. Using=20=
anything with "buffalo" in it (including the title) wouldn't take me there.=20=
I finally found it with just using the authors name.<BR>
Anyway.... I ordered the book and after having wiped out the herd in Wallace=
, KS, (I shot one) I do look forward to reading it.<BR>
Magpie </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" FACE=3D"Geneva" FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" S=
IZE=3D"2"></FONT></HTML>

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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 12:54:41 EST
From: SWcushing@aol.com
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to demise of buffalo

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In a message dated 2/16/04 9:23:26 AM, leeteter@yahoo.com writes:


> 
> A request was made for the info, but I don't know if I should post such a 
> big file on this site. Can anyone advise me?
> 
>  Lee,
> 
I'm thinking it may be better to send the post directly to anyone one that 
would request it....me for example. A compressed "word" format or "PDF" download 
attachment seems to work for most everyone.
and thanks,
Magpie
 
> 
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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" FACE=3D"Gen=
eva" FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" SIZE=3D"2"><BR>
In a message dated 2/16/04 9:23:26 AM, leeteter@yahoo.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE CITE STYLE=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;=20=
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px" TYPE=3D"CITE"></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0=
00000" FACE=3D"Geneva" FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" SIZE=3D"2"><BR>
A request was made for the info, but I don't know if I should post such a bi=
g file on this site. Can anyone advise me?<BR>
<BR>
 Lee,</FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" FACE=3D"Geneva" FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" SIZ=
E=3D"2"><BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" FACE=3D"Geneva" FAMILY=3D"SANSSE=
RIF" SIZE=3D"2"><BR>
I'm thinking it may be better to send the post directly to anyone one that w=
ould request it....me for example. A compressed "word" format or "PDF" downl=
oad attachment seems to work for most everyone.<BR>
and thanks,<BR>
Magpie<BR>
 <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE CITE STYLE=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;=20=
MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px" TYPE=3D"CITE"></FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#0=
00000" FACE=3D"Geneva" FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" SIZE=3D"2"></FONT><FONT COLOR=
=3D"#000000" FACE=3D"Geneva" FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" SIZE=3D"2"></FONT></BLOCKQ=
UOTE></HTML>
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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 11:08:01 -0700
From: "Wynn Ormond" <cheyenne@pcu.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo

- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Brandl" <jbrandl@wyoming.com>
To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2004 8:57 PM



> I have read most every book on the hunting of the bison and spent 4 years
> giving lectures. My thoughts are that once it was discovered that bison
> could replace cow belting leather for the factorys, we were in the
> industrial age by 1872, the US, Germany, and England needed leather
belting
> and the population of cows avaliable for leather decreased at this time.
> Given the number of bison that froze to death, drowned, died in fires,
added
> to the number of bison killed for leather robes, (check the numbers at the
> hide collection yards) more people moving west via railroad and needing
> food, bison needed to feed the rail workders, etc, the population had to
> decrease. The native population did have a significant effect on the
> population, but this was mainly prior to the horse, when larger numbers
were
> driven off cliffs, once the horse came, smaller numbers were killed in
> separate hunts. Also, read how the bison disapeared from east of  the
> missisipi. Interesting thoughts on it also.
>
> Just some thoughts,
>
> Joe Brandl

Joe
Just some questions that your thoughts bring up.

Have you ever tried to drive a buffalo off a cliff?  In Utah today they have
buffalo drives on Antelope Island and most of the work is done by helocoptor
since horseman even in large number who have experience with cattle are
often unable to handle bison.  I am not saying it did not happen but that I
firmly believe that its importance in tribal food and buffalo destruction is
highly over estimated.  As Lee pointed out many of the tribes that we think
of as plains Indians were actually from the woodlands or rivers
(semi-agricultural) who only used buffalo as a food source for a couple
months a year at most.  The horse changed that big time, moving them on the
plains as hunters year round.

About 1872 would be the heart of the Texas cowboy's drive to fame.  I would
think that cattle would be more available not less.  Even Africa was
becoming a better exporter about that time if I understand it.

No one questions that buffalo were hunted to supply belt leather, food for
immigrants, sport,  etc but this is being seen as simply not the great
single factor in their destruction that it is played up to be.

Wynn Ormond




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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 11:04:39 -0700
From: James and Sue Stone <jandsstone@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo

Well said.  Obviously fundamental to the argument .
Sparks

JW Stephens wrote:

> The tragic flaw of the bison is that it is so tasty.
>
> B'st'rd (my little contribution to the learned discourse)
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 14:29:00 EST
From: SWcushing@aol.com
Subject: MtMan-List: Speaking of books...

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I have just reread "Two Years before the Mast" by Richard Dana, and for those 
who haven't read the book....you should. It's a personal narrative about 
Dana's adventures on the merchant brig Pilgrim, as a common seaman, in 1834-36. 
The purpose of the voyage was to trade for cow hides from the Californians 
(this is before buffalo hides were found to serve as well) and lists the trade 
goods on board. "Our cargo consisted of everything under the sun.....spirits, 
teas, coffee, sugar, molasses, raisins, spices, hardware, tin-ware, 
cuttlery....etc... from Chinese fireworks to English cartwheels.." A good list of trade 
goods available in California at the time.
He also describes the Spanish saddle as having "large pommels, or 
loggerheads" and "stirrups covered, or boxed up in front".... and of "twilled cotton made 
into trowsers and jackets and adding several coats of linseed oil to water 
proof..." He mentions the American Mountain men he met on the West coast.. (not 
by name, so you figure out who they were)   There's also great bits of 
information for the time period we're interested in, and the book is a fine read!

Magpie 

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<HTML><FONT FACE=3Darial,helvetica><HTML><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" FACE=3D"Gen=
eva" FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" SIZE=3D"2">I have just reread "Two Years before th=
e Mast" by Richard Dana, and for those who haven't read the book....you shou=
ld. It's a personal narrative about Dana's adventures on the merchant brig P=
ilgrim, as a common seaman, in 1834-36. <BR>
The purpose of the voyage was to trade for cow hides from the Californians (=
this is before buffalo hides were found to serve as well) and lists the trad=
e goods on board. "Our cargo consisted of everything under the sun.....spiri=
ts, teas, coffee, sugar, molasses, raisins, spices, hardware, tin-ware, cutt=
lery....etc... from Chinese fireworks to English cartwheels.." A good list o=
f trade goods available in California at the time.<BR>
He also describes the Spanish saddle as having "large pommels, or loggerhead=
s" and "stirrups covered, or boxed up in front".... and of "twilled cotton m=
ade into trowsers and jackets and adding several coats of linseed oil to wat=
er proof..." He mentions the American Mountain men he met on the West coast.=
. (not by name, so you figure out who they were)&nbsp;  There's also great b=
its of information for the time period we're interested in, and the book is=20=
a fine read!<BR>
<BR>
Magpie </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" FACE=3D"Geneva" FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" S=
IZE=3D"2"></FONT></HTML>

- --part1_1c6.153f7b8c.2d6273fc_boundary--

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 12:21:51 -0800
From: "RP Lahti" <amm1719@charter.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to demise of buffalo

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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A file we can open or not should be fine in 7 pages. You can also have =
someone with a web page provide a link to it.

Capt. L

  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Lee Teter=20
  To: Mountain Men=20
  Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 9:22 AM
  Subject: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to demise of buffalo


  I copied my writing about the buffalo. It was published in 1996 or 97 =
with a couple paintings and a print or two. It is about seven pages =
long. A request was made for the info, but I don't know if I should post =
such a big file on this site. Can anyone advise me?

  Lee Teter


- -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
- -----
  Do you Yahoo!?
  Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online
- ------=_NextPart_000_006B_01C3F487.7494B190
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Microsoft Sans Serif" size=3D2>A file we can open or =
not should=20
be fine in 7 pages. You can also have someone with a web page provide a =
link to=20
it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Microsoft Sans Serif" size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Microsoft Sans Serif" size=3D2>Capt. L</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dleeteter@yahoo.com href=3D"mailto:leeteter@yahoo.com">Lee =
Teter</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  title=3Dhist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com">Mountain Men</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 16, 2004 =
9:22=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Indian =
contribution=20
  to demise of buffalo</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>I copied my writing&nbsp;about the buffalo. It was published in =
1996 or=20
  97 with a couple paintings and a print or two. It is about seven pages =
long. A=20
  request was made for the info, but I don't know if I should post such =
a big=20
  file on this site. Can anyone advise me?</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Lee Teter</DIV>
  <P>
  <HR SIZE=3D1>
  Do you Yahoo!?<BR>Yahoo! Finance: <A=20
  =
href=3D"http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=3D22055/*http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing=
.html">Get=20
  your refund fast by filing online</A></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 12:51:59 -0800 (PST)
From: George Noe <gnoe39@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to demise of buffalo

- --0-1304442086-1076964719=:52527
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Lee
 
Angela Gottfred opened a Yahoo Groups for this list and there is an area for posting files.
 You will have to ask her how to get to it.
 I  forgot how I "enrolled", but it's there.
 grn

A file we can open or not should be fine in 7 pages. You can also have someone with a web page provide a link to it.
 
Capt. L
 
- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: Lee Teter 
Subject: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to demise of buffalo


I copied my writing about the buffalo. It was published in 1996 or 97 with a couple paintings and a print or two. It is about seven pages long. A request was made for the info, but I don't know if I should post such a big file on this site. Can anyone advise me?
 
Lee Teter


- ---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online

George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com >                           
Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline.

- ---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online
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<DIV>Lee</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Angela Gottfred opened a Yahoo Groups for this list and there is an area for posting files.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;You will have to ask her how to get to it.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;I&nbsp; forgot how I "enrolled", but it's there.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;grn<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>

<DIV><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif" size=2>A file we can open or not should be fine in 7 pages. You can also have someone with a web page provide a link to it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif" size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Microsoft Sans Serif" size=2>Capt. L</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=leeteter@yahoo.com href="mailto:leeteter@yahoo.com">Lee Teter</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> MtMan-List: Indian contribution to demise of buffalo</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I copied my writing&nbsp;about the buffalo. It was published in 1996 or 97 with a couple paintings and a print or two. It is about seven pages long. A request was made for the info, but I don't know if I should post such a big file on this site. Can anyone advise me?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Lee Teter</DIV>
<P>
<HR SIZE=1>
Do you Yahoo!?<BR>Yahoo! Finance: <A href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=22055/*http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html">Get your refund fast by filing online</A></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>George R. Noe&lt; gnoe39@yahoo.com &gt;                           <br>Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline.<p><hr SIZE=1>
Do you Yahoo!?<br>
Yahoo! Finance: <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=22055/*http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html">Get your refund fast by filing online</a>
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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 15:21:43 -0600
From: "Monte Holder" <sja028@mail.connect.more.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Speaking of books...

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I was reading again in Osborn Russel or James Clymans book (I'm kind of =
got them both going at the same time and don't have either one here with =
me) when he bailed out of the boat on the way up the river when they =
were attacked by Arikeras.  He had is rifle in his belt and it was =
pulling him under and he had a hard time getting out of that mess.  He =
also had to let go of his "pistols" as I recalled it saying.  I was =
wondering if anyone might know if there is any indication of what kind =
of pistols those might have been?

Monte Holder
Saline County Missouri
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>I was reading again in Osborn Russel or James Clymans&nbsp;book =
(I'm kind=20
of got&nbsp;them both going at the same time and don't have either one =
here with=20
me)&nbsp;when he bailed out of the boat on the way up the river when =
they were=20
attacked by Arikeras.&nbsp; He had is rifle in his belt and it was =
pulling him=20
under and he had a hard time getting out of that mess.&nbsp; He also had =
to let=20
go of his "pistols" as I recalled it saying.&nbsp; I was wondering=20
if&nbsp;anyone might know if there&nbsp;is any indication of what kind =
of=20
pistols those might have been?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Monte Holder</DIV>
<DIV>Saline County Missouri</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 07:03:00 -0700
From: Joe Brandl <jbrandl@wyoming.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo

> 
> 
> Joe Brandl <jbrandl@wyoming.com> wrote:
> The native population did have a significant effect on the
> population, but this was mainly prior to the horse, when larger numbers were
> driven off cliffs, once the horse came, smaller numbers were killed in
> separate hunts. Also, read how the bison disapeared from east of the
> missisipi. Interesting thoughts on it also.
> 
> Just some thoughts,
> 
> Joe Brandl
> 
> ________________
> 
> Joe,
> 
> The horse was the change that made Indian impact on buffalo most profound. The
> horse allowed tribes to make buffalo hunting, and living on the plains, a full
> time occupation. Millions of horses acquired by tribes, were kept with them on
> the plains in prime water and grass areas, using up resources buffalo needed.
> The pressure on the buffalo came from many directions.
> 
> Indian culture changed because of the horse (remember the Sioux and many other
> "plains tribes" were mostly woodland Indians before the horse). When the
> culture became so "buffalo focused" it left behind many saftey nets, such as
> their agriculture and ancient social saftey nets.
> 
> There is no doubt industrial North America finished off the buffalo
> efficiently. The point unnoticed for so long, has been that hunting practices
> by Native Americans were pushing the buffalo to extinction and would have,
> even if the hide hunters never came West. The robe trade was hard on females
> because their hide was best for robes. Males don't carry calves, so the
> reproduction base was greatly harmed. By the time the first buffalo was killed
> to make leather belting, the buffalo had declined to a point that inter-tribal
> war was a problem as tribes fought over the remaining herds.
> 
> 
> 
> Lee
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
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Good points Lee, but summer habitat has never been a problem for any
wildlife in the history of the North American. I agree that the horse
changed several Indian tribes from agriculture to full time hunting, but I
have found no evidence that the Indian hunting practices were pushing the
buffalo to extinction. I do believe that they killed a lot of buffalo
needlessly and left much to rot on the plains, that is well documented. But
blizzards, floods and fire killed more then the entire plains indians ever
could in one year. Intertribal wars increased during the mid 1800's not
because of hunting territory but rather look at the close proximity of the
tribes from the early 1800's to the mid 1800's. Trade with the whites was
contested more often then buffalo hunting was.

Just some thoughts
joe


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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 07:08:34 -0700
From: Joe Brandl <jbrandl@wyoming.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Indian contribution to decimation of buffalo

> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe Brandl" <jbrandl@wyoming.com>
> To: <hist_text@lists.xmission.com>
> Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2004 8:57 PM
> 
> 
> 
>> I have read most every book on the hunting of the bison and spent 4 years
>> giving lectures. My thoughts are that once it was discovered that bison
>> could replace cow belting leather for the factorys, we were in the
>> industrial age by 1872, the US, Germany, and England needed leather
> belting
>> and the population of cows avaliable for leather decreased at this time.
>> Given the number of bison that froze to death, drowned, died in fires,
> added
>> to the number of bison killed for leather robes, (check the numbers at the
>> hide collection yards) more people moving west via railroad and needing
>> food, bison needed to feed the rail workders, etc, the population had to
>> decrease. The native population did have a significant effect on the
>> population, but this was mainly prior to the horse, when larger numbers
> were
>> driven off cliffs, once the horse came, smaller numbers were killed in
>> separate hunts. Also, read how the bison disapeared from east of  the
>> missisipi. Interesting thoughts on it also.
>> 
>> Just some thoughts,
>> 
>> Joe Brandl
> 
> Joe
> Just some questions that your thoughts bring up.
> 
> Have you ever tried to drive a buffalo off a cliff?  In Utah today they have
> buffalo drives on Antelope Island and most of the work is done by helocoptor
> since horseman even in large number who have experience with cattle are
> often unable to handle bison.  I am not saying it did not happen but that I
> firmly believe that its importance in tribal food and buffalo destruction is
> highly over estimated.  As Lee pointed out many of the tribes that we think
> of as plains Indians were actually from the woodlands or rivers
> (semi-agricultural) who only used buffalo as a food source for a couple
> months a year at most.  The horse changed that big time, moving them on the
> plains as hunters year round.
> 
> About 1872 would be the heart of the Texas cowboy's drive to fame.  I would
> think that cattle would be more available not less.  Even Africa was
> becoming a better exporter about that time if I understand it.
> 
> No one questions that buffalo were hunted to supply belt leather, food for
> immigrants, sport,  etc but this is being seen as simply not the great
> single factor in their destruction that it is played up to be.
> 
> Wynn Ormond
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
Again, look at the records of hides purchased during a ten year period from
1865 to 1875. Read the journals from travelers out west. You will see that
this was the largest exodus of buffalo from the plains. In 1872, their was
not as many cattle on the plains yet, not until the 1880s. As for running
buffalo over cliff, what explains the millions of buffalo found at hundreds
of sites from canada to texas, dated after 1800. And noted by the evidence
of metal tools used on the bones. Running buffalo today compared to earlier
years is far difference.

joe


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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 20:30:02 -0700
From: James and Sue Stone <jandsstone@earthlink.net>
Subject: MtMan-List: Bison belts--point of clarificationi

Correct me if I'm wrong.
I have heard in this discussion that the leather "belts" propelled us 
into the industrial revolution.  And there is a lot of talk about using 
bison for "belt leather."

I believe the main reference refers to using bison leather as drive 
belts.  Like the one that works a fan belt, but much bigger so it can 
move circular saw blades in saw mills...and spin lots and lots of 
equipment in cotton mills, grain mills, etc.

In addition, I am sure they went into staps and bellts, too...maybe even 
into shoes.

Sparks


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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 08:57:13 -0700
From: Joe Brandl <jbrandl@wyoming.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Bison belts--point of clarificationi

> Correct me if I'm wrong.
> I have heard in this discussion that the leather "belts" propelled us
> into the industrial revolution.  And there is a lot of talk about using
> bison for "belt leather."
> 
> I believe the main reference refers to using bison leather as drive
> belts.  Like the one that works a fan belt, but much bigger so it can
> move circular saw blades in saw mills...and spin lots and lots of
> equipment in cotton mills, grain mills, etc.
> 
> In addition, I am sure they went into staps and bellts, too...maybe even
> into shoes.
> 
> Sparks
> 
> 
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
Understand, if you read about the industry revolution, realize how much
drive belting it took to run these factorys. A german tanner is credited
with creating a latigo belting from buffalo. Also there are numerous
drawings and photos showing the expansive drive systems that ran the
equipment.

joe


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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:01:39 -0700 (MST)
From: beaverboy@sofast.net
Subject: MtMan-List: Safety Pins

Dear List,
   On a less serious note.
   When was the open wire type safety pin invented and put into everday
use? Did the MM have and use them.
   I always thought safety pins came in the late 1800's?
   Does anyone know.
          bb

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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:18:56 -0700
From: James and Sue Stone <jandsstone@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Safety Pins

Mrs. Stone says Walter Hunt patented the safety pin as we know it in 
1849.  .  
Sparks

beaverboy@sofast.net wrote:

>Dear List,
>   On a less serious note.
>   When was the open wire type safety pin invented and put into everday
>use? Did the MM have and use them.
>   I always thought safety pins came in the late 1800's?
>   Does anyone know.
>          bb
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
>  
>



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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:23:48 -0700
From: James and Sue Stone <jandsstone@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Safety Pins

Before the invention of the safety pin, straight pins were used...a lot! 
 Walter must have gotten real real tired of getting poked.

Also, Hunt is credited with inventing a forerunner of the Winchester 
repeating rifle...in 1834.  
Sparks

James and Sue Stone wrote:

> Mrs. Stone says Walter Hunt patented the safety pin as we know it in 
> 1849.  .  Sparks
>
> beaverboy@sofast.net wrote:
>
>> Dear List,
>>   On a less serious note.
>>   When was the open wire type safety pin invented and put into everday
>> use? Did the MM have and use them.
>>   I always thought safety pins came in the late 1800's?
>>   Does anyone know.
>>          bb
>>
>> ----------------------
>> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>>
>>  
>>
>
>
>
> ----------------------
> hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>



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Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 13:18:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Nathan Boyer <larpenteaur@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Safety Pins

- --0-1720804749-1077052721=:48700
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Hey Sparks,
 
Didn't Adam use a safety pin to hold his fig leave on?????
 
Sorry
 
Nate.

James and Sue Stone <jandsstone@earthlink.net> wrote:
Mrs. Stone says Walter Hunt patented the safety pin as we know it in 
1849. . 
Sparks

beaverboy@sofast.net wrote:

>Dear List,
> On a less serious note.
> When was the open wire type safety pin invented and put into everday
>use? Did the MM have and use them.
> I always thought safety pins came in the late 1800's?
> Does anyone know.
> bb
>
>----------------------
>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html
>
> 
>



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- --0-1720804749-1077052721=:48700
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

<DIV>Hey Sparks,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Didn't Adam use a safety pin to hold his fig leave on?????</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Sorry</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Nate.<BR><BR><B><I>James and Sue Stone &lt;jandsstone@earthlink.net&gt;</I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Mrs. Stone says Walter Hunt patented the safety pin as we know it in <BR>1849. . <BR>Sparks<BR><BR>beaverboy@sofast.net wrote:<BR><BR>&gt;Dear List,<BR>&gt; On a less serious note.<BR>&gt; When was the open wire type safety pin invented and put into everday<BR>&gt;use? Did the MM have and use them.<BR>&gt; I always thought safety pins came in the late 1800's?<BR>&gt; Does anyone know.<BR>&gt; bb<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;----------------------<BR>&gt;hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;<BR><BR><BR><BR>----------------------<BR>hist_text list info: http://www.xmission.com/~drudy/mtman/maillist.html</BLOCKQUOTE><p><hr SIZE=1>
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Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 15:23:52 -0800 (PST)
From: George Noe <gnoe39@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Safety Pins

- --0-271479676-1077060232=:82368
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii



Nathan Boyer <larpenteaur@yahoo.com> wrote:Hey Sparks,Nate,
 I thought it was super glue
 
Didn't Adam use a safety pin to hold his fig leave on?????
 
Sorry
grn

 



George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com >                           
Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline.

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<DIV><BR><BR><B><I>Nathan Boyer &lt;larpenteaur@yahoo.com&gt;</I></B> wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">
<DIV>Hey Sparks,Nate,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;I thought it was super glue</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Didn't Adam use a safety pin to hold his fig leave on?????</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Sorry</DIV>
<DIV>grn</DIV>
<DIV><BR>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR>George R. Noe&lt; gnoe39@yahoo.com &gt;                           <br>Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline.<p><hr SIZE=1>
Do you Yahoo!?<br>
Yahoo! Finance: <a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=22055/*http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html">Get your refund fast by filing online</a>
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