From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #295 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Saturday, May 8 1999 Volume 01 : Number 295 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 08:55:03 -0700 From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:wooden shoes CTOAKES@aol.com wrote: > > > There was an article in Muzzleloader last year that covered this, documented > it and showed how to do it. C.T.: Thanks for the memory jogger. I remember reading it now too. If you come up with the ML issue in question pass it on and I'll look it up myself and pass the info on to B'ar Killer on the MLML. thanks again. I remain...... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 1999 09:00:30 -0700 From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: In the white vs. browning vs. blueing As a general rule of thumb, what Buck stated is pretty close, but there are always exceptions to anything as we have seen on the drop front pants discussion a week or two ago. I read that the Manton's always blued or color case hardened all the metal parts, then at a museum in England I find two cased guns that are a plumb brown, they were originally manufactured in that finish by John Manton. Have seen documentation stating the same about Twig (Manton learned his trade from him), same story as the Manton's - blued or color case hardened all the metal parts, then see a brown metal pair of matched pistols ! When we state white is white or black is black, that may not always be true because somewhere theres a gray one. Turtle. > On Fri, 07 May 1999, buck.conner@uswestmail.net wrote: > > Sorry, Caywood and your father are correct; government contracts, tradegun contracts for the most part stated "white" or "blue" for a finish. Information on many of the gun builders built guns with metal "white" as a standard in the early years according to Kit Ravenshear, around the turn of the 19th century "browning" started to appear. Usually weapons before that may have looked "browned" or "modeled" in appearance, but were really just rusted, as starting life in the white. > > I'll sure others will have different opinions, but like Hawk will tell you, look for good documentation, don't listen to uneducated guesses. > > Buck > > > On Thu, 06 May 1999, Barbara Smith wrote: > > > > Okay, I felt like opening a can of worms, so I'm tossing this out to > > ya'll: > > > > My Dad is building me a gun. We're discussing all the minutae. He's > > decided to buy a kit from Caywood that sound pretty great. Caywood tells > > him that they can supply it in the white or blued. They say that blued > > is historically accurate. > > > > Now, my running buddies are all over me to take the blueing off my brand > > new flintlock and brown it! So, I says to Dad: "I want it in the white > > or browned." So Dad, being related to me, proceeds to drown me in facts > > about how blued is historically accurate. Help! Dad's a great guy, and > > has been shooting muzzleloaders all his life, but he's not "one of us!" > > And I just don't trust a guy who won't truss his privates up in a piece > > of wool! Any of you guys who've been to the Museum of the Fur Trade > > care to tell me what you saw there? > > > > Most gratefully yours, > > Tassee > > > Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 09:03:42 -0700 From: Roger Lahti Subject: MtMan-List: [Fwd: Period correct footwear] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --------------7839A663BFBB9A84A85A92E2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit C. T.: Just got this answer to our question about an article on wooden shoes. Hope this speeds up your search and thanks for the comeback. I remain....... YMOS Capt. Lahti' - --------------7839A663BFBB9A84A85A92E2 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from smtp2.vnet.net ([166.82.1.32]) by relay1.mailsrvcs.net (InterMail v03.02.04 118 119) with ESMTP id <19990507131934.MCWA1920@smtp2.vnet.net> for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 08:19:34 -0500 Received: from lmd.vnet.net (lmd.vnet.net [166.82.1.41]) by smtp2.vnet.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA06636; Fri, 7 May 1999 09:20:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lmd (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by lmd.vnet.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA19353; Fri, 7 May 1999 09:19:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 09:19:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <19990507.060034.-294919.0.redthumbw@juno.com> Errors-To: thisoldfox@aol.com Reply-To: mlml@vnet.net Originator: mlml@vnet.net Sender: mlml@vnet.net Precedence: none From: John L Warnke To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Period correct footwear X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: Muzzle Loader Mailing List. (public) B'ar Killer: I think the reference if "Sabots" in the Mar/Apr 1997 issue of Muzz Loader by Cathy Johnson. >>support the use of "wooden shoes" but they generally didn't seem to >Wish you could remember the source. My understanding is that clogs > >B'ar Killer Red Thumb redthumbw@juno.com - --------------7839A663BFBB9A84A85A92E2-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 12:30:06 -0400 From: Bob Spencer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re:wooden shoes >Thanks for the memory jogger. I remember reading it now too. If you come >up with >the ML issue in question pass it on and I'll look it up myself and pass >the info >on to B'ar Killer on the MLML. thanks again. I remain...... The article you are looking for is in the Mar/Apr 1997 issue of Muzzleloader, but it's by Cathy Johnson, not Beth Gilgun. Page 79, "Sabot". BTW, there is an index of all issues of Muzzleloader since 1992 on the MLML home page. Quick and easy to find stuff there, since your browser will do a word search for you. Have to know the proper word, though. Bob Bob Spencer ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 09:55:15 -0700 From: Roger Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: In the white vs. browning vs. blueing Barbara Smith wrote: > Okay, I felt like opening a can of worms, so I'm tossing this out to > ya'll: > > My Dad is building me a gun. They say that blued > is historically accurate. > > And I just don't trust a guy who won't truss his privates up in a piece > of wool! Any of you guys who've been to the Museum of the Fur Trade > care to tell me what you saw there? Tassee; Well darlin, you know you can trust the "old Captain" now don't cha? Your daddy and Caywood are right when they say that "in the white or blued" is historically correct for many of the old guns. The problem is in appearance and peer pressure. For my part I would go with in the white or brown. Mainly because I don't like the look of blued muzzleloaders and I don't like a shiny barrel in the woods though they do look nice, especially after they have taken on an aged appearance. In any case it is your gun and you should be able to have it any way you want. As to the Museum of the Fur Trade, it has been a number of years since I was there but most of the old guns I have seen in that collection and since in other collections were brown whether they started out that way or ended up that way from natural rusting. That may be why we "see" browned metal parts as being correct to our modern eye even though they may have been white or blue to start out with originally. Walk your own path young lady! I remain........ YMOS Capt. Lahti' > > > Most gratefully yours, > Tassee ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 10:14:21 -0500 From: Mike Rock Subject: MtMan-List: Re: hist_text-digest V1 #294 Want something to talk about? Okay, all the Scots running around in plaids and playing the pipes at Rendezvous. Real or what? I know the pipes would put the run on the Injun's, but were they AT any of the original Rendy'z? And now a treat. At a midwest Rendezvous this last weekend, almost all of us, all three hundred lodges, got to see a NEW Hawken. The paperwork by John Baird was within the last year. He surmises the piece was part of the Ashley resupply effort of 1822, which if you read up on it, had Ashley back on the river in just two weeks time, re outfitted. As it was the peak of the season, Hawken and the other smiths in town were short handed, and every available smith was put in a tizzy getting Ashley going. The rifle is fullstock, brass furniture, and has a stamp that does not have the St. Louis. Baird has seen it on two other guns, one a pistol. The three pieces are non-typical of the shop's run of the mill work. This is he feels, due to the emergency nature of the work, and the fact that non-Hawken smiths were pressed into service for the jobs. Great rifle, great work by Baird, and such a deal for the finder. Rock ------------------------------ Date: 7 May 1999 10:35:31 -0700 From: Subject: Re: MtMan-List: In the white-brown-blue vs aging Barbara, Another choice is to have your father "age" the white metal parts, there are many methods around to do this giving the appearance of a gun that has a few years of wear. (some folks make a weapon look 100 years old and their persona is 1780 with a correct gun, except it looks older than the period, thus missing the whole point of period correct.) Hope that can out right. I use your common old Clorox bleach and cold gun blue, clean the metal - then wipe on the bleach, let the parts set for an hour - wipe on the cold blue and then wipe again with the bleach. Let the second coat sit for 1/2 an hour and then wash off. Don't forget to plug bore, vent hole, etc., then wash with soap/water and oil. This will give a pleasing look that would have taken a year or two of field use to get. Oil when you clean and thats as simple as it gets, plus its easy to touch up in case of an accident. Buck Conner Colorado Territory > On Fri, 07 May 1999, Roger Lahti wrote: > Barbara Smith wrote: > > > Okay, I felt like opening a can of worms, so I'm tossing this out to > > ya'll: > > > > My Dad is building me a gun. They say that blued > > is historically accurate. > > > > And I just don't trust a guy who won't truss his privates up in a piece > > of wool! Any of you guys who've been to the Museum of the Fur Trade > > care to tell me what you saw there? > > Tassee; > > Well darlin, you know you can trust the "old Captain" now don't cha? Your > daddy and Caywood are right when they say that "in the white or blued" is > historically correct for many of the old guns. The problem is in appearance > and peer pressure. For my part I would go with in the white or brown. Mainly > because I don't like the look of blued muzzleloaders and I don't like a > shiny barrel in the woods though they do look nice, especially after they > have taken on an aged appearance. In any case it is your gun and you should > be able to have it any way you want. > > As to the Museum of the Fur Trade, it has been a number of years since I was > there but most of the old guns I have seen in that collection and since in > other collections were brown whether they started out that way or ended up > that way from natural rusting. That may be why we "see" browned metal parts > as being correct to our modern eye even though they may have been white or > blue to start out with originally. Walk your own path young lady! I > remain........ > > YMOS > Capt. Lahti' > > > > > > > Most gratefully yours, > > Tassee Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 18:00:24 +0000 From: Laura Rugel Glise Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dress of Sir William Drummond Stewart Gail: Thank you for responding to my e-mail. You were the only one that jumped in. I am writing a novel of historical fiction, Across the Seasons, involving Osborne Russell and the Rendezvous of 1838. The only license I have taken is moving Alfred Jacob Miller from the Rendezvous of 1837 to 1838. I know. But although I am doing my best to be historically correct, I feel I can justify the switch. Available at the Museum? The Museum in Pinedale or Chadron. Thank again for your help. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 19:51:06 -0600 From: David Mullen Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dress of Sir William Drummond Stewart Ms. Glise, If you are doing research regarding the attire of Sir William Drummond Stewart you may want to consider reading several very pertinent texts regarding Sir William. The first book you may want to consult is _Scotsman in Buckskin: Sir William Drummond Stewart and the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade_ by Mae Reed Porter and Odessa Davenport (Hastings House Publishers, New York, 1963). As you can see by the date the book is far out of print and you will have to consult a library to find a copy. Porter and Davenport did a nice job of putting together their biography, yet the book does lack footnotes of any type. IIRC there is a description of Sir William wearing tartan pantaloons at rendezvous. There was no mention of kilts being worn by anyone. A second book that you may wish to consult is _Edward Warren_ by Sir William Drummond Stewart ( Mountain Press Publishing, Missoula, 1986). This book by Stewart is semi-autobiographical in nature and has many good references to clothing worn at rendezvous. This book is still available and you should be ale to purchase a copy through your local bookstore. Additional artwork as done by Alfred Jacob Miller may be found in _The West of Alfred Jacob Miller_ by Marvin C. Ross, and a series of Miller's original drawings may be found in _A Series of Watercolour Drawings by Alfred Jacob Miller_ (Parke_Bernet Galleries, Inc.). Hope this is of some assistance. YMHOS, David Mullen - -- David Mullen 202 Mesa Verde Jemez Springs NM 87025 (505) 829-3212 email: dmullen@jemez.com Laura Rugel Glise wrote: >I need help from those subject-matter-experts familiar with Scottish costume. > >At web site: > >http://www.people.virginia.edu/~jah6v/images/WDStewart.jpg > >There is a portrait of Sir William Drummond Stewart by Alfred Jacob Miller. > >First, I need a description of what he's wearing that is historically correct and second, although this is a formal portrait do you think he would have had it with him at the Rendezvous of 1837 or 1838? > >Second, could one of you describe for me what you think Captain Stewart might have worn on a day-to-day basis at those events. > >Much obliged. > >Laura Glise >Atlanta, Georgia ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 19:07:39 -0700 From: "Gail Carbiener" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dress of Sir William Drummond Stewart Laura: If you look at Bibliofind on the Net under subject of Alfred Jacob Miller you will find all the books mentioned to date. The museum is in Dallas, TX. gail ==================== - -----Original Message----- From: Laura Rugel Glise To: hist_text@lists.xmission.com Date: Friday, May 07, 1999 3:52 PM Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Dress of Sir William Drummond Stewart >Gail: > >Thank you for responding to my e-mail. You were the only one that >jumped in. I am writing a novel of historical fiction, Across the >Seasons, involving Osborne Russell and the Rendezvous of 1838. The only >license I have taken is moving Alfred Jacob Miller from the Rendezvous >of 1837 to 1838. I know. > >But although I am doing my best to be historically correct, I feel I can >justify the switch. > >Available at the Museum? The Museum in Pinedale or Chadron. > >Thank again for your help. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 19:22:40 -0700 From: Kent Duryee Subject: MtMan-List: Flintlock question Greetings, all; I have in my possession a Kentucky style flintlock rifle in beautiful condition which was made for my father by a gun smith in 1967. Is there somewhere I could find out how much this rifle is worth, or perhaps someone on the list who might have some idea about this? I'd appreciate any help you all could provide! Thanks, Kent Duryee - -- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 08:27:37 -0700 From: "larry pendleton" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: In the white vs. browning vs. blueing Barbara, Thanks for opening this can of worms, I'm enjoying it. This is a topic my buddies and I have argued for years. Your Dad and Buck are exactly right. The letters between J.J. Henry and The American Fur Company that show where AFC was ordering their guns for the 1829 Rendezvous show that AFC ordered these guns BLUED. Now someone else will have to tell you if todays blueing is the same as back then. I doubt it. I have been told the blueing method used back then was the charcoal method. I simply don't know much about blueing methods. As far as todays practice of browning all muzzleloaders, I feel it is wrong. Yes some guns were browned but I doubt if it was a common practice. I base this on the fact that many advertisements for gunsmiths lists the prices of their various products and almost all of them either list browned barrels at higher price or list browned barrels available by special order. Today's browning of barrels is an effort to recreate the look of original 18th and 19th century guns. The fact is those guns obtained that look setting in someone's closet for many years. Probably the way to tell what guns looked like back then on a day to day basis is to look at some of the old Winchesters that were carried daily for decades until they were finally retired from service. They have a unique pattina that I cannot adequately describe here, but it was created by daily handling with sweaty hands, rubbed on saddle leather, rained on, and being laid on saddle pads soaked in horse sweat. Great stuff huh ! The gun that I most recently rebuilt, I left in the white. I question how much of the blueing would have been left on the barrels by the time they reached their destination at rendezvous or far distant forts. One final fact is that most of the trade guns were shipped in a canvas sack or gun case. It seems to me that is not a method of shippment that would do a real good job of preserving the finish on a gun. Canvas being pretty abrasive and the constant handling of the guns enroute leads me to believe that there wasn't much blueing left on the guns by the time they got to where they were going. This is more words that I have written about anything in a spell. I hope I ain't wore ya'll out with my rambling. I don't claim to a expert on anything and anyone with any additional info pro or con to what I have said, please jump in and share it with us. Pendleton - -----Original Message----- From: Barbara Smith To: history Date: Thursday, May 06, 1999 9:24 PM Subject: MtMan-List: In the white vs. browning vs. blueing >Okay, I felt like opening a can of worms, so I'm tossing this out to >ya'll: > >My Dad is building me a gun. We're discussing all the minutae. He's >decided to buy a kit from Caywood that sound pretty great. Caywood tells >him that they can supply it in the white or blued. They say that blued >is historically accurate. > >Now, my running buddies are all over me to take the blueing off my brand >new flintlock and brown it! So, I says to Dad: "I want it in the white >or browned." So Dad, being related to me, proceeds to drown me in facts >about how blued is historically accurate. Help! Dad's a great guy, and >has been shooting muzzleloaders all his life, but he's not "one of us!" >And I just don't trust a guy who won't truss his privates up in a piece >of wool! Any of you guys who've been to the Museum of the Fur Trade >care to tell me what you saw there? > >Most gratefully yours, >Tassee > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 11:36:23 -0400 From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Flintlock question On Fri, 07 May 1999 19:22:40 -0700 Kent Duryee writes: >Greetings, all; > >I have in my possession a Kentucky style flintlock rifle in beautiful >condition which was made for my father by a gun smith in 1967. Is >there >somewhere I could find out how much this rifle is worth, send me a msg off line with a description and if you know who the maker is and any information and or marks on the gun---must be complete then will try to give you a idea--- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 11:09:17 -0400 From: Michael Pierce Subject: Re: MtMan-List: In the white vs. browning vs. blueing dont know of any military contracts that says that the hardware on the guns should be browned---all i have seen states that they will be delivered blued or in the white---some of the scollers on the list may have documentation but i dont have but it's a interesting thing---most of the guns that look browned were actually got that way from usage and not done by the maker. best of my knowledge your father is correct ----blue or in the white and the blue is a blue/black without sheen---some of the locks were color cases as were some of the other small parts on the guns---a lot depends on the maker and his methodologies that he used--- "Hawk" Michael Pierce 854 Glenfield Dr. Palm Harbor, florida 34684 1-(727) 771-1815 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HAWKNEST4@juno.com On 7 May 1999 07:33:22 -0700 writes: >Sorry, Caywood and your father are correct; government contracts, >tradegun contracts for the most part stated "white" or "blue" for a >finish. Information on many of the gun builders built guns with metal >"white" as a standard in the early years according to Kit Ravenshear, >around the turn of the 19th century "browning" started to appear. >Usually weapons before that may have looked "browned" or "modeled" in >appearance, but were really just rusted, as starting life in the >white. > >I'll sure others will have different opinions, but like Hawk will tell >you, look for good documentation, don't listen to uneducated guesses. > >Buck > >> On Thu, 06 May 1999, Barbara Smith wrote: >> >> Okay, I felt like opening a can of worms, so I'm tossing this out to >> ya'll: >> >> My Dad is building me a gun. We're discussing all the minutae. He's >> decided to buy a kit from Caywood that sound pretty great. Caywood >tells >> him that they can supply it in the white or blued. They say that >blued >> is historically accurate. >> >> Now, my running buddies are all over me to take the blueing off my >brand >> new flintlock and brown it! So, I says to Dad: "I want it in the >white >> or browned." So Dad, being related to me, proceeds to drown me in >facts >> about how blued is historically accurate. Help! Dad's a great guy, >and >> has been shooting muzzleloaders all his life, but he's not "one of >us!" >> And I just don't trust a guy who won't truss his privates up in a >piece >> of wool! Any of you guys who've been to the Museum of the Fur Trade >> care to tell me what you saw there? >> >> Most gratefully yours, >> Tassee > > >Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account >http://www.uswestmail.net > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 13:34:57 -0700 From: "Sidney Porter" Subject: MtMan-List: Re: II'm not sure what's going on, but I can't get anything on the internet to work. I have current mail at this address, but can't even open hotmail to get anything there. I'm surely curious. I have never known the entire WWW to not function. ????, too, Sidney > ???? > Is nothing going on or am I having trouble? I haven't received anything > in two days. > > DON AND PHYLLIS KEAS ---LIving History Consultants > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 14:59:33 EDT From: EmmaPeel2@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: browser problems Do you have Internet Explorer 4.0? Sometimes if you delete it, or a section of it, the wrong way it fudges up all access to the Net.. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 15:09:09 EDT From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: sidney, sounds like your browser has been corrupted by either erroreous deletion or a system crash. if you have any way to get to microsoft online, download and install internet explorer 5.0; it will update/correct any corrupted files, as well as giving you the best version of IE available. if you can't get to the web to download it, pick up a copy of almost any internet service provider software (aol, earthlink, att, etc.,at a store (usually free) and install IE (any version) again, then go get the new version. hope this helps, yhs, Barney Fife ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 14:15:24 -0500 From: Tommy Edge Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: RR1LA@aol.com wrote: > sidney, sounds like your browser has been corrupted by either erroreous > deletion or a system crash. if you have any way to get to microsoft online, > download and install internet explorer 5.0; it will update/correct any > corrupted files, as well as giving you the best version of IE available. if > you can't get to the web to download it, pick up a copy of almost any > internet service provider software (aol, earthlink, att, etc.,at a store > (usually free) and install IE (any version) again, then go get the new > version. hope this helps, yhs, Barney Fife get rid of microsoft download netscape 4.5 had the same problem until I started using netscape. - -- Thank You Tommy Edge http://www.nex.net/tedge ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 15:27:10 EDT From: RR1LA@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Re: Browser Problem never had a problem with IE, but i will have to admit that maybe bill gates pockets are a bit overstuffed already. netscape works great too (i use both of them) and it (netscape) should also be on almost any ISP software disk (except the microsoft network of course LOL). good luck, Barn ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 18:11:07 -0700 (PDT) From: George Noe Subject: MtMan-List: New can of worms!!!! In this vast store house of minds and resources, does anyone know a source of listings of Treaties with the Indians? I probably won't be lucky enough to find a total list in one place. But, any would be a start. I am particually interested in treaties with the Creeks. Also, I want to find a contract between Henry Deringer and the U.S. government to make guns for the Indians migrating West of the Mississippi. This probably was about 1830.( + or - a few years. I found in "The Treaty Of Washington" 1832. Article XIII And to each emigrating warrior a rifle, molds, wipping stick and ammunition. And to each family a blanket. We think, maybe, these are possibly some of the guns. Any HELP out there??? === George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > 1005 W.Donkey Ln. Marlow Ok. 73055 Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 20:05:58 -0600 From: David Mullen Subject: MtMan-List: Creek Treaties Mr. Noe, If you are just looking for a list of the Treaty names themselves there is a complete list included in _American Indian Treaties: The History of a Political Anomaly_, Francis Paul Prucha (University of California Press, Los Angeles, 1994), Appendix B. If you are looking for the specific treaties themselves you must go elsewhere. The definitive work on Treaties with the Indians is _Indian Affairs:Laws and Treaties_ Volume 2, by Charles J. Kappler (Washington; Government Printing Office, 1903). It was a very limited printing the first time (500 copies) and was printed again in 1904, again a very limited run (3000 copies). A 1973 fascimile copy was published by Interland Printing and may be available through interlibrary loan. This text includes the entire text of all treaties ever conducted on behalf of the United States with the various tribes. The Creek were involved in the following seventeen treaties: New York - 7 Aug. 1790 Colerain - 29 June 1796 Fort Wilkinson - 16 June 1802 Washington - 14 Nov 1805 Fort Jackson - 9 Aug. 1814 Creek Agency - 22 Jan. 1818 Indian Springs - 8 Jan 1821 Indian Springs - 12 Feb. 1825 Washington - 24 Jan. 1826 Creek Agency - 15 Nov. 1827 Washington - 24 March 1832 Fort Gibson - 14 Feb. 1833 Fort Gibson - 23 Nov. 1838 Creek Agency - 4 Jan. 1845 Washington - 13 June 1854 Wshington - 7 Aug. 1856 Washington - 16 June 1866 Why the interest and which particular documents are you interested in? Looking forward to hearing your response. YMHOS, David Mullen - -- David & Evelyn Mullen 202 Mesa Verde Jemez Springs, NM 87025 (505) 829-3212 email: dmullen@jemez.com George Noe wrote: > > In this vast store house of minds and resources, does anyone know a > source of listings of Treaties with the Indians? > I probably won't be lucky enough to find a total list in one place. > But, any would be a start. > I am particually interested in treaties with the Creeks. > Also, I want to find a contract between Henry Deringer > and the U.S. government to make guns for the Indians > migrating West of the Mississippi. > This probably was about 1830.( + or - a few years. > > I found in "The Treaty Of Washington" 1832. Article XIII And to each > emigrating warrior a rifle, molds, wipping stick and ammunition. And to > each family a blanket. > We think, maybe, these are possibly some of the guns. > Any HELP out there??? > > === > George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > 1005 W.Donkey Ln. Marlow Ok. 73055 > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 21:11:42 -0500 From: "Ratcliff" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: New can of worms!!!! George, Click here for the treaties with the Creeks. http://www.cviog.uga.edu/Projects/gainfo/creek.htm For more information choose a browser (I used Yahoo) and enter a search = for the following: creek + indian + treaties Hope this helps. Lanney Ratcliff - ----- Original Message -----=20 From: George Noe To: Sent: Saturday, May 08, 1999 8:11 PM Subject: MtMan-List: New can of worms!!!! > In this vast store house of minds and resources, does anyone know a > source of listings of Treaties with the Indians? > I probably won't be lucky enough to find a total list in one place. > But, any would be a start. > I am particually interested in treaties with the Creeks. > Also, I want to find a contract between Henry Deringer > and the U.S. government to make guns for the Indians=20 > migrating West of the Mississippi. > This probably was about 1830.( + or - a few years.=20 >=20 > I found in "The Treaty Of Washington" 1832. Article XIII And to each > emigrating warrior a rifle, molds, wipping stick and ammunition. And = to > each family a blanket. > We think, maybe, these are possibly some of the guns. > Any HELP out there??? >=20 > =3D=3D=3D > George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > 1005 = W.Donkey Ln. Marlow Ok. 73055 > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com >=20 >=20 ------------------------------ Date: 8 May 1999 19:17:07 -0700 From: Subject: MtMan-List: Challenge of the Trail REVIEW This is a multi-part message in MIME format... - ------------=_926216227-15992-1 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Hello Camp, Just finished viewing the latest video done by our guides: Jeff hengesbaugh and Wes Housler titled "Challenge of the Trail" Skills of the Mountain Man 1820-1840. They are improving their acting skills, and the overall effort is well done for a low dollar to no dollar available production, when considered what Hollywood puts out these boys have done very good. The background, wildlife and general items viewed are easy to understand, a good learning experience for the new greenhorn or the seasoned traveler. The boys cover horse care, packing, equipage for your animal, as well as edibles and general traveling tips for the horseman. What to take on the trail, horse security and safety, period horse gear and period packing . 19th century trail food and cooking (had to plug the food - Clark & Sons Mercantile of Colorado furnished their edibles, and that damn Jeff just mentions corn and jerky or jerky and corn), choosing a good camp to survival tips and much more. Lets remember that these brothers of the fur trade are the only ones at this time providing video's of our time frame, this is what is needed to get and keep the interest of new comers. Most of us have been doing this for a period and seem to forget we need to encourage new blood to get involved or our life style will died once more as in the past, lets support Jeff and Wes's efforts in keeping the fur trade alive. Like the AMM and many rendezvous of correctness, and local clubs, that's all there is for trying to carry on the history and hopefully keep Hollywood from screwing up to bad in the future. By the way the weapons, horse gear and equipage really looks good, may be PBS should take note, plus they covered some ground in the making of the film, a 270 mile ride. At the end of the ride Wes's lady told me that Wes's Dad wanted to turn around and ride back, even in his early 60's he's as tuff as ever. Give them a call and thanks for your time. YF&B Buck Conner Baker Party / Colorado dba/ Clark & Sons Mercantile http://www.teleport.com/~walking/clark/ The address for the video is: Rocky Mountain College Productions 22 Bell Canyon Cloudcroft, NM 88317 505-687-3267 Challenge of the Trail Video $19.95 Book $14.95 Dress and Equipage Video $19.95 Book $14.95 Brain-tan Buffalo Hide Video $24.95 Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net - ------------=_926216227-15992-1 Content-Type: text/plain; name="926215975.815979" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="926215975.815979" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Brothers,
 
Just finished viewing the latest video done by our guides: Jeff hengesbaugh and Wes Housler titled "Challenge of the Trail" Skills of the Mountain Man 1820-1840.
 
They are improving their acting skills, and the overall effort is well done for a low dollar to no dollar available production, when considered what Hollywood puts out these boys have done very good.  The background, wildlife and general items viewed are easy to understand, a good learning experience for the new greenhorn or the seasoned traveler.
 
The boys cover horse care, packing, equipage for your animal, as well as edibles and general traveling tips for the horseman. What to take on the trail, horse security and safety, period horse gear and period packing .
19th century trail food and cooking (had to plug the food - Clark & Sons Mercantile of Colorado furnished their edibles, and that damn Jeff just mentions corn and jerky or jerky and corn), choosing a good camp to survival tips and much more.
 
Lets remember that these brothers of the fur trade are the only ones at this time providing video's of our time frame, this is what is needed to get and keep the interest of new comers. Most of us have been doing this for a period and seem to forget we need to encourage new blood to get involved or our life style will died once more as in the past, lets support Jeff and Wes's efforts in keeping the fur trade alive.  Like the AMM and many rendezvous of correctness, and local clubs,  that's all there is for trying to carry on the history and hopefully keep Hollywood from screwing up to bad in the future.
 
By the way the weapons, horse gear and equipage really looks good, may be PBS should take note, plus they covered some ground in the making of the film, a 270 mile ride. At the end of the ride Wes's lady told me that Wes's Dad wanted to turn around and ride back, even in his early 60's he's as tuff as ever.
 
Give them a call and thanks for your time.
 
YF&B
Buck Conner
Baker Party / Colorado
dba/ Clark & Sons Mercantile
 
The address for the video is:
 
Rocky Mountain College Productions
22 Bell Canyon
Cloudcroft, NM  88317
505-687-3267
 
Challenge of the Trail
Video $19.95
Book  $14.95
 
Dress and Equipage
Video $19.95
Book  $14.95
 
Brain-tan Buffalo Hide
Video $24.95
 
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