From: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com (hist_text-digest) To: hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Subject: hist_text-digest V1 #378 Reply-To: hist_text Sender: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Errors-To: owner-hist_text-digest@lists.xmission.com Precedence: bulk hist_text-digest Monday, September 27 1999 Volume 01 : Number 378 In this issue: -       MtMan-List: Fire on Boat -       Re: MtMan-List: Food -       Re: MtMan-List: Food -       MtMan-List: Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 16:03:27 -0500 -       Re: MtMan-List: Audubon on beaver trapping -       Re: MtMan-List: Audubon on beaver trapping -       MtMan-List: Fires on Board -       Re: MtMan-List: Providing references (formerly Audubon on beaver trapping) -       Re: MtMan-List: Fires on Board -       Re: MtMan-List: Off Topic --- Storage of Black Powder -       Re: MtMan-List: Providing references (formerly Audubon on beavertrapping) -       Re: MtMan-List: Audubon on beaver trapping -       Re: MtMan-List: Fires on Board, -       MtMan-List: Auction -       Re: MtMan-List: Providing references (formerly Audubon on beavertrapping) -       Re: MtMan-List: Providing references -       MtMan-List: Pancakes -       Re: MtMan-List: Pancakes -       MtMan-List: Summer Camp Outpost Program -       Re: MtMan-List: Pancakes -       Re: MtMan-List: Providing references -       Re: MtMan-List: Pancakes -       Re: MtMan-List: Providing references -       Re: MtMan-List: Providing references ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 12:09:22 -0700 (PDT) From: George Noe Subject: MtMan-List: Fire on Boat I don't know about the "Big Boys" boats. John Bradbury "Travels In The Interior Of America" "In the years 1809,1810, and 1811". The night of the Great New Madrid Earthquake; states "By the time we could get to our fire, which was on a large flag, (I assume flag stone)in the stern of our boat, the shock had ceased;" I guess they cooked on this fire. He was taking a load of lead ore to Louisianna. George ===== George R. Noe< gnoe39@yahoo.com > Watch your back trail, and keep your eyes on the skyline. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 15:42:59 -0400 From: Bob Spencer Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Food >The tall ships no doubt had galleys to feed the >crew. What kind of stoves did they use. Look at: http://www.stvincent.ac.uk/1797/Victory/food.html Bob Bob Spencer Louisville, KY http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 16:45:24 -0400 From: Linda Holley Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Food This is what I love about this sight, besides youall nice people, you have such great wealth's of information and insight to other sights many of us do not get too. Linda Holley Bob Spencer wrote: > >The tall ships no doubt had galleys to feed the > >crew. What kind of stoves did they use. > > Look at: > > http://www.stvincent.ac.uk/1797/Victory/food.html > > Bob > > Bob Spencer > Louisville, KY > http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 15:03:29 -0600 From: "Frank Fusco" Subject: MtMan-List: Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 16:03:27 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF0838.AB348580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some of my thoughts on the food question: Pancakes. I believe that something resembling a modern pancake would = have been found on the trail or at 'vouz. It is known that pumpkins were = common fare among transplanted Europeans and Indians both. The use of = pumpkin or gourd blossoms dipped in a batter then fried is common and = many centuries old in almost every culture of the world. Turner? I = ain't sure. But I am sure these guys were resourceful and whatever would = have worked would have been used. Other foods: Captains Lewis and Clark had a concoction of dried = vegetables and whatever that they called 'portable soup'. I believe = whatever may have been available and able to be thunk up by the hungry, = lonesome men of the trail would have been tried. There was a variety of = ethnic backgrounds amongst the trappers, plus picked-up notions along = the trails. I believe we just cannot say "they didn't do = this.........", or that "they did exactly this.......". We just don't = know fer certain for sure. Sugar: Little known that the Birch tree yields sugar-like sap not unlike = the Maple. And bee trees were common in America before the days of DDT. = Again, need and resourcefulness would have dictated. Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas - ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF0838.AB348580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Some of my thoughts on the food = question:
Pancakes.  I believe that something resembling = a modern=20 pancake would have been found on the trail or at 'vouz. It is known that = pumpkins were common fare among transplanted Europeans and Indians both. = The use=20 of pumpkin or gourd blossoms dipped in a batter then fried is common and = many=20 centuries old in almost every culture of the world.  Turner? I = ain't sure.=20 But I am sure these guys were resourceful and whatever would have worked = would=20 have been used.
Other foods: Captains Lewis and Clark had a = concoction of=20 dried vegetables and whatever that they called 'portable soup'.  I = believe=20 whatever may have been available and able to be thunk up by the hungry, = lonesome=20 men of the trail would have been tried.  There was a variety of = ethnic=20 backgrounds amongst the trappers, plus picked-up notions along the = trails. =20 I believe we just cannot say "they didn't do this.........", or that = "they did=20 exactly this.......". We just don't know fer certain for = sure.
Sugar: Little known that the Birch tree yields sugar-like sap not = unlike=20 the Maple.  And bee trees were common in America before the days of = DDT.  Again, need and resourcefulness would have dictated.
Frank "Bearclaw" Fusco, Mountain Home, Arkansas
- ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF0838.AB348580-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 21:00:17 -0500 From: Jim Colburn Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Audubon on beaver trapping Washtahay- At 10:32 AM 9/26/99 -0600, you wrote: > Thanks for the paragragh. It is always interesting to see entries that are >different tha usual. Can you give me more info on the passage? Complete book name, >book printer, date published and page number it is found on? > This sounds like alot of work, but for us that write and collect info- it is >good to have all this. Generally speaking, I get paid when I do research for writers. Contact me off-list for rates, etc. Stuff I post to the list like this is just random stuff that might be of general interest. This little tidbit was something I ran across when digging around for other stuff. Given the minimal cite I provided- "Audubon and Bachman (1849)"-it shouldn't be too hard to track down. Even if you have to read everything Audubon wrote, it won't take too long. LongWalker c. du B. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 20:57:37 -0600 From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Audubon on beaver trapping Jim, Don't get me wrong- I wasn't trying to get something from you for free. I do all my own research And I know how hard it can be. My personal opinion is that any person who is worth his salt (as a writer) needs to do his own, or he just becomes a mouth piece for what others have already said. I just wasn't familiar with the book you quoted. Two Audubons have left written notes (father and son) and I was hoping to find the book you cited and check it out. All of the more common journals and narratives are easy to find and read, but when a one comes up that I have not seen- it gets my attention. If you are referring to "The Viviparous Quadrupeds of North America"- it is not in my collection, but am under the impression that is mostly paintings of animals with notes on each, like the "Imperial Collection of Audubon Animals", which I have. I'll put your notes about this on a list I keep on books to find if available. mike. Jim Colburn wrote: > Washtahay- > At 10:32 AM 9/26/99 -0600, you wrote: > > Thanks for the paragragh. It is always interesting to see entries that > are > >different tha usual. Can you give me more info on the passage? Complete > book name, > >book printer, date published and page number it is found on? > > This sounds like alot of work, but for us that write and collect info- > it is > >good to have all this. > Generally speaking, I get paid when I do research for writers. Contact me > off-list for rates, etc. > Stuff I post to the list like this is just random stuff that might be of > general interest. This little tidbit was something I ran across when > digging around for other stuff. Given the minimal cite I provided- > "Audubon and Bachman (1849)"-it shouldn't be too hard to track down. Even > if you have to read everything Audubon wrote, it won't take too long. > LongWalker c. du B. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 22:21:19 -0500 From: bvannoy Subject: MtMan-List: Fires on Board Dave, I've used a wooden frame (about 2' square) filled with sand about 8" deep on rafts for a small fire pit before. Could the sailors of bygone days used something similar on deck? Chases Hawks ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 23:52:29 EDT From: Casapy123@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Providing references (formerly Audubon on beaver trapping) I, too wish specific references would be shared on this list. many times people write tomes with no backing documentation. Doesn't mean they are not right, but if they aren't, the risk of others saying "I read it on the Net," becomes too great. References also help judge the value of the info. For example, quoting Bernard DeVoto as documentation for bringing porter (beer) to a Rocky Mountain fur trade event is suspect at best. You'd be better off tracking down Miller's words, then go from there. Just because a tertiary resource made it to publication, doesn't automatically make them correct. Primary and secondary will most always be more "correct." Jim ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 21:34:46 +0000 From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fires on Board bvannoy wrote: > I've used a wooden frame (about 2' square) filled with sand about 8" > deep on rafts for a small fire pit before. Could the sailors of bygone > days used something similar on deck? Chases Hawks, Quit exactly what was used. I see that others have already given examples of such fire "places" on board ships. There were probably a number of slightly different configurations over the centuries but having a place to cook on a ship that would make long journeys was quit common. Any thing from setups like your sand box to bricked up "stoves" similar to what an old black smith shop would have setting on the floor were used. These simple hearths evolved into metal cooking stoves and with the advent of steam propulsion, live steam was piped to the galley to provide the heat needed to cook food. Ship board fire was always a danger of course and smoke removal was somewhat of a problem but a well managed fire doesn't require a triple wall metal chimney. Many backwoods cabins have been built with wood and clay chimneys. Many home water craft in oriental harbors have a simple place to cook and these small boats are all wood. So yes, sailors of bygone days used simple sand boxes on deck but they also built such places "tween" decks too, once multi deck ship building came into being. Why such arrangements aren't found on some of the recreated early sailing ships like the ones at Jamestown I can't say. Hope this helps a bit. I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 22:01:13 +0000 From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Off Topic --- Storage of Black Powder Buck wrote: That was the longest 3 months we experienced having that bomb sitting there, nice to see it leave. Buck, Know how you felt. Spent my first two years in the Navy on AE-18, the USS Paricutin. It was a WWII ammo ship. Five holds full of high explosive. One hold full of "special weapons" (read bio,chem,nuc), one hold full of black powder. All holds were 4+ decks deep. Was never so glad to change duty stations in all my years. A couple things came out of that time though. Someone says "FIRE" and everyone fights fire! (No place to run). The other thing I came away with was a total lack of response to loud noises. We figured if you heard the bang you were still alive and thus there was no need to jump or otherwise react surprised. If there were a real bang no one but the guys on the other side of the fleet would hear it. We also obeyed the smoking regulations without argument! I remain..... YMOS Capt. Lahti' Clerk, Wilson Price Hunt Party NW Brigade AMM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 01:09:20 -0500 From: Jim Colburn Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Providing references (formerly Audubon on beavertrapping) Washtahay- At 11:52 PM 9/26/99 EDT, you wrote: >I, too wish specific references would be shared on this list. Wouldn't that be cool? Wow, a list we could share serious research and references on! I've gotten the feeling that the list isn't really interested in that, preferring to rely on anecdotes and possibly faulty repetitions of other peoples' work. An analysis of list traffic would indicate this is more of a chat list than a list ofr serious research-and if that is what the members want so be it. >many times >people write tomes with no backing documentation. Doesn't mean they are not >right, but if they aren't, the risk of others saying "I read it on the Net," >becomes too great. I don't think its that much of a factor. Most people seem to be just looking for confirmation for their pre-conceived notions. > >References also help judge the value of the info. For example, quoting >Bernard DeVoto as documentation for bringing porter (beer) to a Rocky >Mountain fur trade event is suspect at best. You'd be better off tracking >down Miller's words, then go from there. Just because a tertiary resource >made it to publication, doesn't automatically make them correct. Primary and >secondary will most always be more "correct." We would need to establish the meaning of "primary", "secondary", and "tertiary" references for purposes of the discussion. Let's take an example here, showing the problems that can creep in as sources go form primary to secondary to tertiary. Some time back-years ago-i commented on the mocs I wore at the time. My source for these was an early (pre-1860) moc, and a comment from a very old woman I grew up calling "Grandmother". In her childhood, only the Suhtai wore mocs of that style, but her grandmother said it was the style they all wore when she was a child. (I was a tertiary source on this. Grandmother was a secondary source. her grandmother was a primary source. The moc was a questionable source-no real date and a questionable tribal attribution.) (So, based on an undated sample and family history, I concluded that this style of moc was the norm for the 1800-1850 time period. And was called an idiot, ignorant, or just wrong-in a patronizing manner. I grew annoyed, so I set out to find out what type of mocs was in use by the horse indians during the time when they were transitioning to the horse. (I spent two years-probably 500-600 hours- researching this. Phone calls to Germany, Austria, England, Spain, Scotland, Ireland, Russia. I bought illustrated catalogs from auctions in Europe from before WWI and WWII. I paid to have a fair number of documents translated to English. The conclusion? (Those mocs I was told about as a child were probably pretty close to what was worn by the Cheyennes and Suhtai when they began acquiring horses. I found a few extant mocs from that tribal group dating from the 1750-1850 time period that were previously unknown. My pattern was slightly different, probably occasioned by Grandmother spending most of her early life around the Sioux, who used a different pattern. The old moc soles were made hair-side down, whereas I used hair side in. The ties were WAY different. Details. That is what makes work like that important!) I may have become the world's greatest authority on the footwear of a small band of refugees during the time when they were forced to flee into an unknown and hostile environment. Whoopee. The list doesn't really want to read through 200+ pages of research, and who can blame them. (Frankly, I've considered becoming a history major just so I can use the material as a Master's thesis. Its dry, its boring, only some kind of pedantic fool would read it at anything less than gunpoint. Its a natural thesis!) Gotta crash-I just burned up this week's spare time! LongWalker c. du B. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 00:11:14 -0500 From: Jim Colburn Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Audubon on beaver trapping Washtahay- At 08:57 PM 9/26/99 -0600, you wrote: > Don't get me wrong- I wasn't trying to get something from you for free. I'm pretty down on writers right now. I made the mistake of loaning some of my collection to a writer, with the understanding it would be returned FED-EX, insured for enough that the package would be well cared for. When I returned from a brief stay in the hospital, I found a box containing papers from Ashley, Choteau, and Chittenden (including a set of galley copies of "The American Fur Trade in the Far West" in which Chittenden made margin notes, and a bunch of Chittenden's notes for the book) sitting in the sun. The idiot sent them common carrier. To further add insult to injury, he used a highlighter on some of it. >I do all >my own research And I know how hard it can be. Research is part of writing. >I just wasn't familiar with the book you >quoted. Two Audubons have left written notes (father and son) Actually, three-John James and both sons (John Woodhouse and Victor). Victor's work seems to consist of letters and is little known, in part due to the small size and little importance of what he did. Think of it as little bits of information he sent his father and brother. > All of the more common journals and narratives are easy to find and read, Finding the uncommon ones, and understanding the context and meaning, IS the research. >"The >Viviparous Quadrupeds of North America"- Aye, I was referring to "Quadrupeds", it was the only work of any importance (at the time) published by Audubon and Bachman in that year. >impression that is mostly paintings of animals with notes on each, like the "Imperial >Collection of Audubon Animals", which I have. "Quadrupeds" is to the "Imperial Collection of Audubon Animals" what a Hawken is to a CVA mountain rifle. "Imperial Collection" is OK, but its a rehash-things were selected for a "coffee-table market". There's nothing wrong with that, and taken for what it is its a great book (one I wouldn't mind owning-but as art rather than literature or research material). The text of "Quadrupeds" is worth enough to me as a naturalist and historical researcher that I am working on a deal to acquire a set for my own library. The problem with works like this is just what you said-people rely on their impressions rather than actual research. LongWalker c. du B. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 18:46:26 +1200 From: Duncan R Macready Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Fires on Board, Cooking fires on sailing ships were usually stoves on a firebrick/clay base, buckets of water were kept handy at all times and fires were put out in storms , battle, etc for safety reasons. The fires under the try pots on deck on whaling ships were also on brick and clay base, these were big serious fires fed with tryed out blubber scraps,the smoke and smell must have been unbelievable and the fires could be seen for miles at night. a lot of whalers burned to the waterline. I have a small cannon and a couple of firebricks I got out of such a shipwreck. YMOS CUTFINGER Friendships made. Problems shared. Campfires across the Wilderness Auckland ,New Zealand ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 10:15:26 -0400 From: deforge1@wesnet.com (Dennis Miles) Subject: MtMan-List: Auction This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BF08D1.379EBC00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey ALL! I am back on my soapbox! We have some new stuff for the auction! And I am expecting allot more = goodies this week...Check it out daily!!!!... = www.wesnet.com/deforge1/Auction.htm Thanks for your help! Dennis Miles AMM#1622 Hiveranno Doc Newell Party, Ohio "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math e" DOUBLE EDGE FORGE Period Knives & Iron Accouterments http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1 - ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BF08D1.379EBC00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey ALL!
 
 I am back on my soapbox!
 We have some new stuff for the auction!  = And I am=20 expecting allot more goodies this week...Check it out = daily!!!!...  =20 www.wesnet.com/deforg= e1/Auction.htm
 
Thanks for your help!
 
Dennis Miles
AMM#1622 Hiveranno
Doc Newell Party, Ohio
 
 
   "Abair ach beagan is abair gu math=20 e"
          DOUBLE EDGE = FORGE
  Period Knives & Iron = Accouterments
    http://www.wesnet.com/deforge1
- ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BF08D1.379EBC00-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 11:43:42 -0500 From: "Texan" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Providing references (formerly Audubon on beavertrapping) It is imperative to check primary sources. As a medical/biochemistry researcher I find too many times that the tertiary resource barely resembles the primary source-sometimes not even a distant cousin. LongWalker, I must be a pedantic fool. I found your "natural thesis" on the mocs quite delicious. Thanks for burning up your week's spare time. Victoria Ft. Worth, Texas ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 12:53:49 -0500 From: Glenn Darilek Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Providing references I am gratified that some of my posts have generated discussions of citing references, using more than one reference, and using first-hand references. It is ironic that for my informal research on rendezvous food, I was one of the very few on the list who bothered to cite my references. Citing is proper even when the references are second or third hand. Then at least the reader can judge the value of the information. This is infinitely superior to spouting opinion or supposition as fact. And even far better than stating "fact" and not mentioning resources. And don't get me started about the unending chit chat and personal communications on the list. I am flattered by being the "lightning rod" for this discussion. But make no mistake - I am not a historian. I would tremble if anyone accused me of doing serious research. Come to think of it, I am just a buckskinner trying to do better. I have no time to seek out the original sources other than those on Dean Rudy's web site. I didn't even have that when I informally researched rendezvous food. So give me a break if I only cite the books I have purchased. I would much rather cite the work of Bernard DeVoto, who spent years researching the subject than add to the excess of speculation on the list. I think DeVoto won the Bancroft award or Pulitzer for "Across the Wide Missouri." In the hope of encouraging worthwhile contributions to the list, I remain. Glenn Darilek Iron Burner Jim Colburn wrote: > > Washtahay- > At 11:52 PM 9/26/99 EDT, you wrote: > >I, too wish specific references would be shared on this list. > Wouldn't that be cool? Wow, a list we could share serious research and > references on! I've gotten the feeling that the list isn't really > interested in that, preferring to rely on anecdotes and possibly faulty > repetitions of other peoples' work. An analysis of list traffic would > indicate this is more of a chat list than a list ofr serious research-and > if that is what the members want so be it. > > >many times > >people write tomes with no backing documentation. Doesn't mean they are not > >right, but if they aren't, the risk of others saying "I read it on the Net," > >becomes too great. > I don't think its that much of a factor. Most people seem to be just > looking for confirmation for their pre-conceived notions. > > > > >References also help judge the value of the info. For example, quoting > >Bernard DeVoto as documentation for bringing porter (beer) to a Rocky > >Mountain fur trade event is suspect at best. You'd be better off tracking > >down Miller's words, then go from there. Just because a tertiary resource > >made it to publication, doesn't automatically make them correct. Primary > and > >secondary will most always be more "correct." . . . ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 15:50:13 -0400 From: "Laura Glise" Subject: MtMan-List: Pancakes 12:30 p.m. PST I'm glad we got on this discussion regarding food. It raises a question concerning a term I lifted from the drudy list of definitions. That word is "feastcakes" for pancakes. I use this term in my novel. Russell refers to pancakes as "feastcakes." (I'm not saying that he made pancakes and turned them with his hatchet mind you.) I know that terms in the dictionary can be misleading. I had Russell refer to himself as a "bossloper," and Lanney pointed out to me bossloper was a modern-day term referring to the fur trade period. And suggested I refer to Osborne as a "lost Maine boy." See what I mean? Honest mistake on my part but a mistake nonetheless. So, gentlemen, before Across the Seasons goes to print . . . should feastcakes stay or go? Hey, I'm not going to have ya'll making wisecracks behind my back for a term I could have corrected before it's typeset. What would I do without all of you? Laura Glise Rochester, Washington - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Access your e-mail anywhere, at any time. Get your FREE BellSouth Web Mail account today! http://webmail.bellsouth.net - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 16:09:03 EDT From: ThisOldFox@aol.com Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pancakes > I use this term in my novel. Russell refers to pancakes as "feastcakes." (I' > m not saying that he made pancakes and turned them with his hatchet mind you.) A while back when we were discussing the autobiography of Gurdon Hubbard, I may have made mention of pancakes. He noted that on Sunday of each week, the voyaguers of the Illinois Brigade were treated to pancakes and maple syrup, instead of their regular regimen of tallow and corn. Perhaps they considered them "feastcakes" as they ate them only once a week as part of their Sunday feast. Just conjecture....but plausible as they were consumed rather infrequently and were a feast compared to the regular daily ration. Dave Kanger ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 15:26:08 -0500 From: James A Lindberg Subject: MtMan-List: Summer Camp Outpost Program I'm posting this from the Scouts-L list, hopefully some of you can help him. >Hi All > >I'm new to the List. > >Am looking for info and ideas for the council summer camp outpost area >program. We have available an Indian village, trapper village and 1840's >homestead. Looking to really improve the program for the year 2000. Any >feedback will be much appreciated > >Thanks > >Jack Reece .Scoutmaster, Troop 89 >WB 92-37 "Tail-Slappin" Beavers > >jackreece@mindspring.com > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 14:43:11 +0000 From: R Lahti Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pancakes Laura Glise wrote: > I use this term in my novel. Russell refers to pancakes as "feastcakes." > So, gentlemen, before Across the Seasons goes to print . . . should feastcakes stay or go? Hey, I'm not going to have ya'll making wisecracks behind my back for a term I could have corrected before it's typeset. Laura, My vote goes to using the term "feastcakes". It would also be a good reason to put a glossary in the back of your book. > > What would I do without all of you? As to your last question, there are many ladies that in a fit of exasperation with us would say, "You would do just fine!", but I submit, it wouldn't be as much fun. We do have our uses even if just for comic relief! Can't wait for the book to be done. I remain...... Impatiently, YMOS Capt. Lahti' P.S. Do you want me to keep you posted on our various little treks and trips around WA. so you can try out your kit? I apologize but I didn't think to mention the camp we just had over in Eastern Idaho the 17th/19th, for the whole Brigade. Several gals there and you would surely have been welcome. ------------------------------ Date: 27 Sep 1999 14:44:43 -0700 From: turtle@uswestmail.net Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Providing references > I would much rather cite the work of Bernard DeVoto, who spent > years researching the subject than add to the excess of > speculation on the list. I think DeVoto won > the Bancroft award or Pulitzer for "Across the Wide Missouri." > ....................... > > Glenn Darilek Glenn, Many well known historians (the Hanson's), teachers and museum personel (Denver Museum of Natural History for one), only use DeVoto as a last resource, over the years many of his statements and research has had flaws; wrong dates, locations, etc. We have only used Bernard as a second source in several museum and historical papers sumitted in our research do to these problems. Agreed he was there in some cases, the question has always been: was his writings changed when edited, or where they incorrect when written ? If he is the only one you have for a reference, that's all one can do, but most (not all) look a little further in their research. Take care - we leave as friends, Lee "Turtle" Boyer Historical Advisor - Parks & Rec. State College, Pennsylvania ___________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 16:09:20 -0600 From: Mike Moore Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Pancakes Laura, Why not leave the term in? Sounds like a good fur trade expression that is just not in use today. Give a note on a explanation, if you feel the least bit uncomfortable with it. But to me, colorful words, expressions and even attitudes can make what ever you are writing only better. We have lost alot of the "old" ways of talking and writing. (And maybe some of it is for the better.) If you worried that your readers may misinterpret it, find a way to solve the dilemma. But use it if you can. Laura Glise wrote: > 12:30 p.m. PST > > I'm glad we got on this discussion regarding food. It raises a question concerning a term I lifted from the drudy list of definitions. That word is "feastcakes" for pancakes. > > I use this term in my novel. Russell refers to pancakes as "feastcakes." (I'm not saying that he made pancakes and turned them with his hatchet mind you.) I know that terms in the dictionary can be misleading. I had Russell refer to himself as a "bossloper," and Lanney pointed out to me bossloper was a modern-day term referring to the fur trade period. And suggested I refer to Osborne as a "lost Maine boy." > > See what I mean? Honest mistake on my part but a mistake nonetheless. > > So, gentlemen, before Across the Seasons goes to print . . . should feastcakes stay or go? Hey, I'm not going to have ya'll making wisecracks behind my back for a term I could have corrected before it's typeset. > > What would I do without all of you? > > Laura Glise > Rochester, Washington > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Access your e-mail anywhere, at any time. > Get your FREE BellSouth Web Mail account today! > http://webmail.bellsouth.net > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: 27 Sep 1999 16:30:06 -0700 From: "Concho" Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Providing references > > I would much rather cite the work of Bernard DeVoto, who spent > > years researching the subject than add to the excess of > > speculation on the list. I think DeVoto won > > the Bancroft award or Pulitzer for "Across the Wide Missouri." > > ....................... > > > > Glenn Darilek > > Glenn, > > Many well known historians (the Hanson's), teachers and museum personel (Denver Museum of Natural History for one), only use DeVoto as a last resource, over the years many of his statements and research has had flaws; wrong dates, locations, etc. We have only used Bernard as a second source in several museum and historical papers sumitted in our research do to these problems. > > Agreed he was there in some cases, the question has always been: was his writings changed when edited, or where they incorrect when written ? If he is the only one you have for a reference, that's all one can do, but most (not all) look a little further in their research. > > Lee "Turtle" Boyer Hey guys, If you recall about a year ago there was some dicussion about DeVoto and a mistake about location, time, etc. on one of the artists on the Upper Missouri, got quite lengthy between Clay Landry, Allen Chronister, Buck Conner and several others. They found several errors, depending on what book they where referring to, pretty interesting how one editor varied from another telling the same story. "May the spirit be with you" D.L."Concho" Smith Livingston, MO. Historical Coordinator - Missouri ___________________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------ Date: 27 Sep 1999 17:14:09 -0700 From: Buck Subject: Re: MtMan-List: Providing references > If you recall about a year ago there was some dicussion about DeVoto and a mistake about location, time, etc. on one of the artists on the Upper Missouri, got quite lengthy between Clay Landry, Allen Chronister, Buck Conner and several others. They found several errors, depending on what book they where referring to, pretty interesting how one editor varied from another telling the same story. > > D.L."Concho" Smith _______________________________________ That was on the AMM list, not the Hist list Concho, it was a discussion about location, time and confussion on DeVoto's statements to the press. I'll share a little of that very long discussion that covered a week or more. Please excuse the ? that for some reason where originally ', some of them change when saving this to a file in Windows. Mon, 5 Oct 1998 18:18:35 -0600 (MDT) Clay, One of the brothers of the AMM has sent me a fax on our dicussion of Alfred Jacob Miller, a copy of a page of the[ revised and enlarged first edition ] of "The West of Alfred Jacob Miller" by Marvin C. Ross. (The one I have is the [ standard first edition ] of the same, and my page number for the quote showed earlier was on XII ). Page XIX DeVoto believs that Miller made this excursion with Stewart in 1938, [22] but could not find evidence to support that view. It is true that John Crawford added this footnote to a letter to Stewart from New Orleans on October 11, 1838: ? Miller is expected here soon. I think he got your letter, his pictures, etc. are here at his old quarters ib Chartres Street; what process he has made I cannot say, but I fear he seems rather lazy.? [23] (the rest of this information I did not receive as it continues on the next page.) [22] "Across the Wide Missouri", 359. (In a review of the first edition of "The West of Alfred Jacob Miller" published in the new York Herald-Tribune, July 22, 1951, DeVoto pointed out correcting that "I was mistaken in saying that he believed Miller went with Sir William Drummond Stewart to the Far West again in 1838".) [23] From a letter in the Missouri Historical Society. Clay, I guess it depends on which edition of "The West of Alfred Jacob Miller" you have for reference is how one would consider the facts. But when looking at the statement from "Artists of the West" it seems to have muddied the waters, then DeVoto?s remarks in the New York Herald-Tribune probably was an attempt to clear what was said before. (On August 10, 1951 the New York Herald-Tribune quoted Mr. DeVoto as questioning his information in a statement, ? After additional research by one of my aids, these sketches and drawings may have been copies of other artists works, used for reference by Mr. Miller?. According to the reporter, Bernard was still puzzled by the information of his earlier statement.) By now everyone is probably tired of my findings and I?m not sure what the purpose continuing on with this would do, so Clay lets go with DeVoto?s last statement in the New York Herald-Tribune of August 10, 1951 for now until additional information becomes available. Thats what makes research so interesting, there's additional information that changes history over and over again as its found. The more you look at one little part the more it changes like this Miller thing. As Clay stated earlier "Alfred Jacob Miller was never on the Upper Missouri River-he went to the Horse Creek rendezvous in 1837 and returned via ..............". Then you read the other statements by DeVoto from the New York Herald-Tribune, then you wonder did he go with Stewart in 1838 ? I'm now looking at information where the hell Stewart was in 1838 and what was recorded about his moves, never ending no matter which way you go in your research. But the bottom line is as Clay Landry or others will agree I'm sure, do the research, then do more and so on. That is what is the interesting part of our sport, and Clay thank you for your time and hope to visit with you soon. Buck ********** Buck, Sorry for the delay in reaponding to your post on Stewart and Miller's where-abouts in 1838. I spent the lst few days down on the Powder River getting my cabin ready for hunting season-won't be long!! Your findings and discussion on DeVoto's statements were very interesting. Seems that even the "Great" historians get cross wired! It is relatively easy to find out were Stewart was located the summer of 1838-where all good mountaineers would be- on the way to Rendezvous-waugh! The missionaries who traveled with the Dripps rendezvous caravan to the Wind river Rendezvous of 1838 wrote; "Next to the guide was the wagon of Capt Stewart with four mules attached. The owner of this outfit was an English Gent. traveling for pleasure,,," -- Cushing Eells. Stewart headed back to St. Louis in August as was in St. Louis by September 1838. He had received the news of his brother John's deathe and was making plans to return home. According to Ron Tyler, in his book on Alfred Jacob Miller, Miller was moving his studio from New Orleans to Baltimore in July of 1838. Wonder where ole Bernard got his original idea that Miller and Stewart where on the upper Missouri river? Go figure! Clay Aux Ailments de Pays! ********** Clay, How high up the Missouri do Bodmer's paintigs go? Can you identify the exact location of many of the paintings on the landscape? Do you think it would be possible to do an analysis of vegetation trends along the Wild and Scenic Missouri from the art of Point, Bodmer, and others? Dave ********** Dave Bodmer and Prince Maximilian went all the way up to Fort McKenzie in 1833-located at the mouth of the Marias and Missouri. One of his paintings is of two Indian tribes at war just outside the walls of the Fort, whilest the white guys look on form behind the walls. In looking at the Bodmer art I doubt that you can tell much about the grass and shrub species along the river........ Later, Buck Conner AMM Jim Baker Party Colorado Aux Ailments de Pays! _____________________________ Signup for your free USWEST.mail Email account http://www.uswestmail.net ------------------------------ End of hist_text-digest V1 #378 ******************************* - To unsubscribe to hist_text-digest, send an email to "majordomo@xmission.com" with "unsubscribe hist_text-digest" in the body of the message.